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go to episode 323 of the behind the shield podcast

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with joel totoro and wes barnett welcome to the

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behind the shield podcast as always my name is

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james geering and this week it is my absolute

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honor to welcome on the show retired veteran

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firefighter chief and the man behind on scene

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training aaron heller Now, in this second conversation,

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we discuss a host of topics from the evolution

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of the fire helmet, PFAS, vetting safe and realistic

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fire training, the 24 -72 firefighter work schedule,

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the recruitment crisis, volunteerism, and so

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much more. Now, before we get to this incredible

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conversation, as I say every week, please just

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take a moment. Go to whichever app you listen

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to this on. Subscribe to the show. Leave feedback

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and leave a rating. Every single five -star rating

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truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making

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it easier for others to find. And this is a free

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library of well over 1 ,000 episodes now. So

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all I ask in return is that you help share these

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incredible men and women's stories so I can get

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them to every single person on planet Earth who

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needs to hear them. So with that being said...

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I welcome back onto the show, Aaron Heller. Enjoy.

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Aaron, I want to start by saying thank you so,

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so much for coming back onto the Behind the Shield

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podcast today. Well, thank you for having me

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back. It's always an honor to be asked to be

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on any of these types of things, but certainly

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Behind the Shield means a lot to me. Just seeing

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the work you do and all the people you've had,

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it's nice to be a small fish in that really,

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really big pond. Yeah, well, I mean, I am too,

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and I'm the host, so there we go. All right.

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Well, just as a kind of, I guess, an initial

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icebreaker, you were just at FRI yesterday. Talk

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to me about your experience presenting, but also

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some of the classes that you actually took as

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well. So, yeah, I've been very fortunate. The

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Fiero group asked me to come in and speak on

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kind of in their platform. They had a full day

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pre -con session. And so I was one of four in

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the morning who spoke. Literally the only one

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who didn't have PhD behind my name. I explained

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to him I had BS behind my name and take it as

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you wish. But it was really interesting. They

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are a group who predominantly deals with PPE

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and also station design. They're very large into

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that. Nonprofit group, 501C3. The head of it,

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Chief Tutterow, is retired from Charlotte, North

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Carolina Fire Department. Great people. And I've

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been going to their conference in Greenville

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every February or March for the last several

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years. And last year or the year before was my

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first time presenting there. But it's all about

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learning about our PPE and learning about what's

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going on with the NFPA stuff, what's going on

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with innovations and changes. And of course,

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what are our big concerns, right? PFAS is the

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big concern. The change in the NFPA 1970 standard

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is a big concern. And what research is being

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done? So I had the opportunity to listen to,

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before I went on in the morning, it was Dr. Brian

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Orman from NC State, who is a textile guy who

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is just, and again, these are really good people

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who are very, very bright. Kind of goes without

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saying, but they're doing this for the right

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reasons. They're doing their research and really

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trying to improve things for us. And I look at

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it as myself as being an old old guy in the fire

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service. Right. I got I'm in my 41st year overall

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since I was a junior fireman. And to listen to

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the innovation and the changes and the stuff

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that they've seen and where they see us going.

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It's been pretty cool. So Dr. Orman spoke quite

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a bit about the testing procedures, talked a

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lot about the new 1970, what effects we're going

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to see in the gear itself, in our PPE, with the

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removal of PFAS and the treatments that we were

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used to. So his was very interesting, showing

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different playing tests, showing the absorption

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tests that they do. with different oils and so

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forth and water and i've seen this a couple times

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but to see it again and a little more updated

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was interesting so that was that was one um dr

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stapleton heather stapleton from duke university

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spoke primarily on the health effects and and

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of pfos and again the additives in our that were

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in our gear for the most part and she was very

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very good And they have to tread lightly with

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all the litigation going on right now. You can

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tell that they're dancing a little bit because

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they can only be so committal. And as they say,

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there's still a lot of research and testing that

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must be done because with different parts of

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the country, they're seeing different results.

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And I think that's very interesting. So she really

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captured my attention. A couple of the people

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in the audience had asked her, and the moderator

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of the program, Ron Cooley, asked her, can you

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definitively say it's our gear? Can you say that

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the PFAS in our gear is what is giving us cancer?

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And, you know, that's the million -dollar question,

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right? The union pushed it hard. The IAFF pushed

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it hard. And I understand why. Because obviously

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our cancer rates are up. And when you do your

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blood work, and I know you just posted yours

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the other day, and it's frightening. It is frightening

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when we see where our PFAS levels are. But one

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of the things that I took from her answer was

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one of the big concerns they have is drinking

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water and your region. And she put up a map,

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which was graphed out with the levels of PFAS

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that they have found. not the exact levels, but

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whether it was high or low and so forth, of PFAS

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in drinking water around the country. And man,

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that's an eye -opener. Now, as she said, this

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map isn't 100 % on the dot because not everywhere

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has truly been tested as strongly as some places.

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So Wyoming may not have been tested. nearly as

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hard as Orlando or as New Jersey or as LA or

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somewhere like that. So I think maybe they still

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have some work to do on that. But it was very

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interesting. And do we have reason to be afraid?

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Damn right we do. We absolutely do. But we can

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delve into this as we go through this conversation

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because it's way more than just what's in our

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turnout. We have to take a little bit of responsibility

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as members of the fire service as well. And believe

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me, I'm 100 % guilty of this as anybody. So I

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think it goes on from there. And the next speaker

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that spoke before me was Dr. Kessler from UL

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and through Fire Safety Research Institute. And

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again, very good explaining their tests, explaining

00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:05.409
their... their ev tests which i thought it is

00:10:05.409 --> 00:10:07.509
probably the biggest thing people are asking

00:10:07.509 --> 00:10:09.889
about now is you know what happens when an ev

00:10:09.889 --> 00:10:12.029
burns what what's getting on my gear what could

00:10:12.029 --> 00:10:14.929
i possibly uh breathe in what could i ingest

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what you know all those questions and every internet

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guru has answers and they're all teaching an

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ev class now with with probably second third

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and fourth hand facts so it was very interesting

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to see that ul's doing the the scientific work

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for this for us and on our behalf. He also spoke

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about SCBAs. They've been looking at SCBA masks

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and actually came out with a memo on folks who

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are still using SCBA masks that meet the older

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standards and not the newest standard and the

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problems with that and the fact that they're

00:10:52.830 --> 00:10:55.610
finding that they craze and bubble and fail at

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much lower temperatures than new stuff. It was

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very informative. And I commend Fiero for being

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a part of this. And really, I think they're driving

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the bus. I really do. I think we touched on this

00:11:08.519 --> 00:11:11.299
in our first conversation, but how much research

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was done to show that the American firefighter

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helmet from the 1930s is still technologically

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superior to any other helmet on the planet? If

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we're going to talk about science and trust the

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science, let's throw that into there as well.

00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:30.399
I know. And we are we are. It's funny, I was

00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:33.980
writing a writing a little chapter for a friend

00:11:33.980 --> 00:11:37.980
of mine who's writing a book based on on my chapter

00:11:37.980 --> 00:11:40.620
is supposed to be on organizational change. And

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so I was writing it today, actually, while my

00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:45.559
wife was having a medical procedure done. I was

00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:47.639
in the waiting room and did a few paragraphs

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of that. And, you know, the old the old 200 years

00:11:51.799 --> 00:11:54.039
of tradition unimpeded by progress now maybe

00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:57.389
worth 250 years. The country's turning 250 next

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year, so we'll have a wrestling match in front

00:11:59.789 --> 00:12:02.210
of the UFC fight in front of the White House

00:12:02.210 --> 00:12:04.110
for that, which will be interesting. And then

00:12:04.110 --> 00:12:06.690
we'll go to the new ballroom for appearances.

00:12:07.289 --> 00:12:09.950
Exactly. But I'm certainly going to watch. I

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mean, it's just history in the making. But, yeah,

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so it's funny you say that because one of the

00:12:16.970 --> 00:12:21.309
gentlemen who's very, very involved with the

00:12:21.309 --> 00:12:24.679
Fiero Group. with the NFPA committees on 1970

00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:27.700
and several others, is a gentleman named Jeff

00:12:27.700 --> 00:12:31.480
Stull. He has a long history in the Coast Guard,

00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:37.360
and he's very, very well -spoken and well -studied

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and done a lot of good, I think, for the emergency

00:12:40.139 --> 00:12:43.860
services and what he does. And at the last Fiero

00:12:43.860 --> 00:12:46.559
conference in, I guess it was February or March,

00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:50.379
he actually put out a small survey regarding

00:12:51.159 --> 00:12:55.279
our our helmets and our eye protection in our

00:12:55.279 --> 00:12:59.340
helmets um so yeah i mean there it's something

00:12:59.340 --> 00:13:01.740
to look at you know the euro helmet nobody wants

00:13:01.740 --> 00:13:03.759
i don't want it honest to god i know it's safer

00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:06.840
for me from what everybody tells me i'll probably

00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:10.899
be cut dead if i was wearing it but um but it's

00:13:10.899 --> 00:13:13.620
true it's it again we all have to choose our

00:13:13.620 --> 00:13:15.919
poison i suppose well my thing is it doesn't

00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:18.320
have to be the euro helmet Make an American helmet.

00:13:18.379 --> 00:13:20.620
Just make it good. I mean, that bailout that

00:13:20.620 --> 00:13:23.259
went viral a couple of weeks ago, the guy, you

00:13:23.259 --> 00:13:25.860
know, the backdraft in the second floor and he's

00:13:25.860 --> 00:13:28.080
kind of lay sideways on the ladder. What's the

00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:30.279
first thing that fell off? His helmet. Now he's

00:13:30.279 --> 00:13:32.419
two stories up. If he slips head first, he's

00:13:32.419 --> 00:13:35.000
done. If he had a European helmet on, it would

00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:38.000
still be on his head. So we cannot deny the fact

00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:40.320
that they absorb carcinogens in the leather ones.

00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:43.620
I mean, I wore the West Coast helmet, which was

00:13:43.620 --> 00:13:46.360
smaller. And even coming back to the East Coast

00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:47.980
with the bigger one, I was catching that damn

00:13:47.980 --> 00:13:49.879
thing on everything. And then you think about

00:13:49.879 --> 00:13:51.620
the weight of it and all these other things.

00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:54.059
So that's fine. Don't don't take the European

00:13:54.059 --> 00:13:56.419
one then. But for the love of God, come up with

00:13:56.419 --> 00:13:58.419
something better and call it American, at least.

00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:01.580
But this whole this is tradition is bullshit.

00:14:01.620 --> 00:14:02.960
And I'm sure we talk about the first time. It's

00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:06.120
not. It's a costume. It's history. History and

00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:08.440
tradition are two very different things. Tradition.

00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:12.019
is is leadership and courage and service and

00:14:12.019 --> 00:14:14.799
camaraderie that is the history excuse me the

00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:17.620
the culture the tradition of the fire service

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you know if we're all about you know what we

00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:23.179
look like then take off your pack put three quarter

00:14:23.179 --> 00:14:25.240
length boots on you're not allowed to get on

00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:27.820
an engine go find a horse drag some you know

00:14:27.820 --> 00:14:29.600
steamer over there and go put it out while you're

00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:31.730
sucking air through your beard Otherwise, shut

00:14:31.730 --> 00:14:34.309
the fuck up about this whole it's history thing.

00:14:34.570 --> 00:14:37.269
You want your tick. Leave the tick behind if

00:14:37.269 --> 00:14:39.370
you're not worried about innovation. So I don't

00:14:39.370 --> 00:14:42.029
know what our obsession is with the helmet when

00:14:42.029 --> 00:14:44.570
it's the last piece of equipment that we refuse

00:14:44.570 --> 00:14:47.169
to change. But they're shit because 14 years

00:14:47.169 --> 00:14:49.730
I wore them myself. They are terrible. And what

00:14:49.730 --> 00:14:51.929
do we wear in special ops? A different helmet.

00:14:52.049 --> 00:14:54.350
What do we wear in extrication teams? A different

00:14:54.350 --> 00:14:56.529
helmet. You know what I mean? So all it is, is

00:14:56.529 --> 00:14:58.590
a motorbike helmet. If you own a motorbike, it's

00:14:58.590 --> 00:15:00.710
the same kind of helmet. You have no problem

00:15:00.710 --> 00:15:03.929
wearing that. So my thing is American fire service.

00:15:03.970 --> 00:15:05.789
If you have such an issue with something that's

00:15:05.789 --> 00:15:08.450
come from another country because your ego hurts

00:15:08.450 --> 00:15:10.549
too much, then invent your own. But for the love

00:15:10.549 --> 00:15:14.570
of God, can we please improve it? I think they

00:15:14.570 --> 00:15:16.789
are improved there. Well, I know there are some

00:15:16.789 --> 00:15:18.590
companies who are working pretty hard at it.

00:15:19.029 --> 00:15:21.350
It's kind of interesting because if you look

00:15:21.350 --> 00:15:24.169
and you start scrolling social media. And I have

00:15:24.169 --> 00:15:26.710
some friends that are involved in this, and I

00:15:26.710 --> 00:15:31.190
don't officially take a real strong public opinion

00:15:31.190 --> 00:15:35.009
either way on it, but there's a lot of companies

00:15:35.009 --> 00:15:37.429
out there who are now refurbishing helmets, right?

00:15:37.529 --> 00:15:39.850
And they do very good work. You look at the helmet,

00:15:39.909 --> 00:15:42.730
and it's cleaned up nicely, and it's got a better

00:15:42.730 --> 00:15:46.190
fit, more comfort, all that. But they've certainly

00:15:46.190 --> 00:15:49.450
changed the dynamics of that helmet as far as

00:15:49.450 --> 00:15:51.929
its safety components go. uh you know some of

00:15:51.929 --> 00:15:53.809
the suspensions have been changed you don't you

00:15:53.809 --> 00:15:57.389
don't have uh ratchet systems in them a lot of

00:15:57.389 --> 00:15:59.649
them are removed a lot of them are actually cutting

00:15:59.649 --> 00:16:02.070
their brims down a little bit in the back so

00:16:02.070 --> 00:16:04.129
you you get a little more movement in your neck

00:16:04.129 --> 00:16:08.330
and your head i guess is the reason but now if

00:16:08.330 --> 00:16:10.070
we were to get hurt wearing that helmet where

00:16:10.070 --> 00:16:12.669
do we stand you know i don't know because pretty

00:16:12.669 --> 00:16:15.149
sure that nfpa sticker isn't isn't going to matter

00:16:15.149 --> 00:16:19.940
at that point so It's certainly something. I

00:16:19.940 --> 00:16:23.360
know I've worked with one company, one manufacturer,

00:16:23.559 --> 00:16:27.799
who has come out with two new styles, although

00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:32.220
they are traditional looking. The fit rides a

00:16:32.220 --> 00:16:35.539
little bit lower down, but it's still a traditional

00:16:35.539 --> 00:16:39.159
looking helmet. Now, it's not leather. It's their

00:16:39.159 --> 00:16:43.259
form of composite and so forth. But the research

00:16:43.259 --> 00:16:45.360
is there. It shouldn't be that hard to figure

00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:47.669
these things out. It really shouldn't. and and

00:16:47.669 --> 00:16:51.049
our gear is coming really a long long way uh

00:16:51.049 --> 00:16:53.009
you know the long way from the you know the duck

00:16:53.009 --> 00:16:56.149
coat duck coats and and red ball gloves you know

00:16:56.149 --> 00:17:01.570
and hip boots so it's uh it is the culture change

00:17:01.570 --> 00:17:03.830
that we need to we always need to address it

00:17:03.830 --> 00:17:07.130
and and you can't when you when you're trying

00:17:07.130 --> 00:17:10.849
to move the culture a bit you can't do it in

00:17:10.849 --> 00:17:13.670
everybody jump in the deep end at one time and

00:17:13.670 --> 00:17:16.640
and i think that you need to gradually move to

00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:20.000
that to avoid the shock and awe so to speak but

00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:22.819
then again if you shock and awe and that's it

00:17:22.819 --> 00:17:25.519
this is what you're going to do well you conform

00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:28.980
or you don't so i guess there's there's two sides

00:17:28.980 --> 00:17:31.299
to that coin i kind of like easing into things

00:17:31.299 --> 00:17:34.019
well my thing is this if we're going to talk

00:17:34.019 --> 00:17:36.599
about pfast in our gear which we should because

00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:39.299
as i for people listening i posted my blood tests

00:17:39.299 --> 00:17:42.619
after cambiotics paid for me to have a pfast

00:17:42.619 --> 00:17:46.720
test and all my levels were off the chart You

00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:48.900
know, then we also have to have a conversation

00:17:48.900 --> 00:17:52.160
about every other element of our PPE that's detrimental.

00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:55.140
So a leather sponge that sits on our head, a

00:17:55.140 --> 00:17:57.279
leather radio strap that goes right across our

00:17:57.279 --> 00:18:00.160
throat and the thyroid area. These are also things

00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:03.079
that we need to address. So if you can't decontaminate

00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:05.559
your helmet or if we're looking at musculoskeletal

00:18:05.559 --> 00:18:08.039
injuries or just simply the ability to crawl

00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:10.319
through a space after a collapse. You know, we

00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:11.859
need to be looking at those as well. You can't

00:18:11.859 --> 00:18:14.539
say, oh, it's PFAS and join a lawsuit and then

00:18:14.539 --> 00:18:16.180
throw a freaking leather helmet on your head.

00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:19.819
That's just ridiculous. Yeah. Well, and I don't

00:18:19.819 --> 00:18:21.900
know if you know, I don't recall if he was on

00:18:21.900 --> 00:18:27.420
your show or not, but Tony Gillen. Yes. So, you

00:18:27.420 --> 00:18:30.599
know, his helmet saved his life. His helmet in

00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:33.559
a training incident. Had he not had the full

00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:35.339
suspension and everything in that helmet, his

00:18:35.339 --> 00:18:38.079
doctor told him. Yep. You were, you know, basically

00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:40.420
he was almost paralyzed from, from a Halligan

00:18:40.420 --> 00:18:43.400
falling off the roof and getting, um, had he

00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:46.440
not been wearing that helmet that met this, met

00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:49.200
the standard and, and, you know, I guess God

00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:51.880
looking over him as well, he would have been

00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:55.700
paralyzed. Um, so it makes you certainly, it

00:18:55.700 --> 00:18:57.599
makes you think, I can tell you, I wear a helmet

00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:00.119
when I do a lot of the flashover training. Um,

00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:02.880
we're doing a lot of that for one of the companies

00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:06.799
that we work with. And, um, It is not the standard.

00:19:06.940 --> 00:19:09.759
It's an old Morning Pride Bend 2 that I sent

00:19:09.759 --> 00:19:12.680
up to Capital City Industries, had him refurbish.

00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:16.140
It's got a much different liner in it, much different

00:19:16.140 --> 00:19:19.140
suspension in it. It's lighter. It sits lower

00:19:19.140 --> 00:19:22.920
on my head. It fits me perfectly. But I'm in

00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:27.180
a scenario there where I wear that when I'm not

00:19:27.180 --> 00:19:30.279
working ladders. I'm not in a position where

00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:31.700
things are going to fall on my head, basically.

00:19:33.099 --> 00:19:36.460
And a lot of guys I know in those burns are starting

00:19:36.460 --> 00:19:40.240
to wear the West Coast -style helmet or even

00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:42.099
the Philly -style helmets, you know, the little

00:19:42.099 --> 00:19:44.680
turtle shells, because they're lighter and on

00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:46.420
the training ground at the end of a long day,

00:19:46.599 --> 00:19:48.880
if you're wearing a leather helmet for a long

00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:51.579
time, you've taken a beating. And we can't wear

00:19:51.579 --> 00:19:53.339
leathers in some of these training facilities

00:19:53.339 --> 00:19:55.519
we're working in now because it'll just destroy

00:19:55.519 --> 00:19:58.740
that helmet. Yeah. Well, you just underlined

00:19:58.740 --> 00:20:01.140
two reasons why maybe the innovations have to

00:20:01.140 --> 00:20:03.359
progress. Like I've always said, the Navy SEALs

00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:05.539
don't wear tin helmets for a reason. You know

00:20:05.539 --> 00:20:06.640
what I mean? They're not worried about how they

00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:07.819
look. They're worried about if they can kill

00:20:07.819 --> 00:20:12.319
bin Laden or not. So progressing a little bit

00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:14.900
away from that, back to the PFAS conversation,

00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:18.559
I just interviewed Sean Bounds, one of the health

00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:22.859
and wellness chief at DC Fire. Amazing conversation.

00:20:23.319 --> 00:20:25.680
But he was talking about a really interesting

00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:29.339
point. is they obviously want to get away from

00:20:29.339 --> 00:20:32.279
the gear that has PFAS in, but he was saying

00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:34.900
that the danger is trying to rush it so much

00:20:34.900 --> 00:20:37.700
that the technology isn't there. So I'm all about

00:20:37.700 --> 00:20:40.579
innovation, but the example I used with him was

00:20:40.579 --> 00:20:43.539
the vaccine during COVID. Yes, it would be fantastic

00:20:43.539 --> 00:20:45.940
to truly have something that would stop the spread

00:20:45.940 --> 00:20:48.420
and stop you yourself from getting this particular

00:20:48.420 --> 00:20:50.980
disease, but that wasn't what happened. They

00:20:50.980 --> 00:20:53.519
rushed it through and it ended up being... nowhere

00:20:53.519 --> 00:20:55.640
near as effective as they told us initially.

00:20:55.940 --> 00:20:59.279
And he was saying that some of the demos on the

00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:01.740
PFAS -free gear that they developed up to this

00:21:01.740 --> 00:21:06.319
point, the absorption rate was a lot more. And

00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:08.460
you imagine if you're absorbing hydrocarbons,

00:21:08.519 --> 00:21:10.660
I think they did one demo and the firefighter

00:21:10.660 --> 00:21:12.839
went up like a Christmas tree. So not something

00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:14.759
I witnessed, secondhand information, but obviously,

00:21:14.819 --> 00:21:18.329
Sean. was there in these conversations. So I

00:21:18.329 --> 00:21:20.150
think this is the other thing that we do have

00:21:20.150 --> 00:21:22.589
to be careful. And the other side as well is

00:21:22.589 --> 00:21:25.130
that not to be duped by the chemical companies

00:21:25.130 --> 00:21:28.769
who change one molecule and call it something

00:21:28.769 --> 00:21:30.789
else and you've got the same shit in your gear

00:21:30.789 --> 00:21:33.450
still. So those are two kind of interesting things

00:21:33.450 --> 00:21:35.869
that I've heard out of this PFAS conversation

00:21:35.869 --> 00:21:40.289
so far. And he's absolutely right. From all the

00:21:40.289 --> 00:21:42.369
stuff that I've seen and I've had the opportunity

00:21:42.369 --> 00:21:45.849
to work with. at least one of the manufacturers

00:21:45.849 --> 00:21:48.990
very closely uh and and seeing the products from

00:21:48.990 --> 00:21:52.549
the other manufacturers very closely um he's

00:21:52.549 --> 00:21:56.329
not wrong the the fact that when you take a a

00:21:56.329 --> 00:22:02.910
you take that material and you remove the pfas

00:22:02.910 --> 00:22:05.910
so you're removing what we've been coating it

00:22:05.910 --> 00:22:08.390
with so to speak right basically they're coatings

00:22:08.390 --> 00:22:13.140
so when we remove that the gear what I guess

00:22:13.140 --> 00:22:15.740
the best way to put it, Dr. Orman put it very

00:22:15.740 --> 00:22:18.279
clearly. One of the times I heard him speak earlier

00:22:18.279 --> 00:22:21.440
was, you know, be careful of the devil that you're

00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:23.720
about to dance with. We knew the one we were

00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:27.200
dancing with. The next one, we don't know enough

00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:30.079
about it. In my opinion, we really don't. And

00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:31.640
just like you said, could they change one or

00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:33.980
two molecules here and there? And maybe it's

00:22:33.980 --> 00:22:36.400
not necessarily better. It's not PFAS anymore,

00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:40.920
which we know is bad, but maybe it could be something

00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:44.440
else down the road. You're right about the absorption.

00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:47.000
The other issue for fire departments is going

00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:49.000
to be your gear is not going to hold up. It's

00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:51.559
just not. And that was spoken about yesterday

00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:53.519
quite a bit. Nobody can tell you the straight

00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:57.339
number. So when I retired from the job, I worked

00:22:57.339 --> 00:22:59.940
in a very busy place. Guys are putting on their

00:22:59.940 --> 00:23:03.640
gear a lot in a day. And it takes a beating.

00:23:03.740 --> 00:23:05.920
And they go to quite a few fires and extrications

00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:08.980
and just a lot of runs. So they're wearing it

00:23:08.980 --> 00:23:13.470
quite a bit. That gear. My guess, and again,

00:23:13.609 --> 00:23:16.430
just an educated guess. I don't have any facts.

00:23:16.549 --> 00:23:18.730
I don't have research to back myself up. But

00:23:18.730 --> 00:23:22.430
what I'm seeing is that what we wanted to be

00:23:22.430 --> 00:23:24.230
10 -year gear and what we assumed would be 10

00:23:24.230 --> 00:23:26.269
-year gear, I think you're looking at three to

00:23:26.269 --> 00:23:29.190
five -year gear. And talking to my friends who

00:23:29.190 --> 00:23:31.150
are selling gear, that's what they're seeing.

00:23:31.269 --> 00:23:35.329
They're seeing that in that three on, gear that's

00:23:35.329 --> 00:23:39.250
been worn often and laundered properly often

00:23:39.250 --> 00:23:42.880
is going to start to fail. So now it affects

00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:45.960
everything down the road. It affects budgets.

00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:49.460
It affects staffing levels. And one of the union

00:23:49.460 --> 00:23:52.160
guys spoke about this yesterday at the conference.

00:23:52.539 --> 00:23:55.859
If I have to make a decision between can we get

00:23:55.859 --> 00:23:58.559
a bigger raise or can we get our second set of

00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:02.859
gear, I have a dilemma as a union guy. I now

00:24:02.859 --> 00:24:07.539
have a dilemma. Do they have to cut money out

00:24:07.539 --> 00:24:11.160
of this to pay for this? So I think it's going

00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:14.160
to affect the fire service more than we realize

00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:16.900
and more than the common firefighter understands.

00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:21.339
And these prices aren't going down. They're all

00:24:21.339 --> 00:24:25.500
going up 15%, 20 % or whatever it is. It's a

00:24:25.500 --> 00:24:29.880
problem. And this is generational. This is not

00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:32.920
going to end now. We're at the tip of the iceberg

00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:36.019
with PFAS. Now we're going to move forward. You

00:24:36.019 --> 00:24:39.180
talked about the saturation of the gear. You're

00:24:39.180 --> 00:24:41.279
talking about the hydrocarbons that are being

00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:44.680
sucked into the gear. And can we get it decon?

00:24:45.500 --> 00:24:47.960
We can do that if we're doing it the proper way.

00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:51.160
And then again, you look at a small place like

00:24:51.160 --> 00:24:53.980
where I volunteer now since I retired, and they're

00:24:53.980 --> 00:24:56.400
not doing many runs. They're going to maybe do

00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:00.220
300, 400, 500 runs in a year. How many times

00:25:00.220 --> 00:25:02.119
am I actually going to put that gear on? That

00:25:02.119 --> 00:25:04.660
gear is going to last much, much longer than

00:25:04.660 --> 00:25:09.980
a busy ghetto city fire department. These are

00:25:09.980 --> 00:25:13.799
all things that are going to affect it. The biggest

00:25:13.799 --> 00:25:16.579
thing, it's the moisture barriers. It's absolutely

00:25:16.579 --> 00:25:20.380
the moisture barriers. And that's where we are.

00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:23.279
I really like the idea. I don't know if they

00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:25.259
call them blue gear or not. I forgot that right.

00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:27.700
I remember John Spira talking a long time ago

00:25:27.700 --> 00:25:29.859
that he was developing one, but I don't know

00:25:29.859 --> 00:25:32.099
if they ever materialized, but also having a

00:25:32.099 --> 00:25:35.150
workout set of gear. hopefully a fraction of

00:25:35.150 --> 00:25:37.930
the price of real bunker gear, simulates the

00:25:37.930 --> 00:25:41.609
heat encapsulation, you know, the inability to

00:25:41.609 --> 00:25:44.750
move as well, but it's not ever going to a fire.

00:25:44.829 --> 00:25:46.650
So a lot cheaper, you don't need to have that,

00:25:46.650 --> 00:25:49.349
you know, heat resistance at all, but just kind

00:25:49.349 --> 00:25:52.210
of like a bulky, you know, jacket and pants.

00:25:52.289 --> 00:25:54.950
So you can simulate, you know, the intensity,

00:25:55.170 --> 00:25:56.990
the heat. I mean, I've always worked in California

00:25:56.990 --> 00:26:00.910
or Florida. So today it's 106 outside. So, you

00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:02.849
know, you have to be doing works and, you know,

00:26:02.869 --> 00:26:04.309
you have to work out in gear. Otherwise you would

00:26:04.309 --> 00:26:07.049
just die. You know, even in rehab, you can't

00:26:07.049 --> 00:26:10.329
cool down. So, you know, I really like that,

00:26:10.369 --> 00:26:12.650
too, because that removes not only as you're

00:26:12.650 --> 00:26:14.910
talking about the use, because I wore the hell

00:26:14.910 --> 00:26:17.150
out of mine working out because I had departments

00:26:17.150 --> 00:26:19.410
where I ran a lot of fire and departments that

00:26:19.410 --> 00:26:23.410
in five years barely even saw a flame. So, you

00:26:23.410 --> 00:26:25.569
know, either way, I'm putting my gear on, whether

00:26:25.569 --> 00:26:28.220
it's just a. pull sleds and carry sandbags around

00:26:28.220 --> 00:26:30.599
the back or i'm putting it on for a commercial

00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:34.680
fire in anaheim well and the other thing is you

00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:36.640
got to spec your gear for what you're going to

00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:38.319
do and what you're what you're going to face

00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:43.200
so you know i see a lot of these these gear salesmen

00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:45.880
quote unquote who are really just order takers

00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:47.940
and they're they're selling what they can sell

00:26:47.940 --> 00:26:50.460
they they tell you buy this spec and this is

00:26:50.460 --> 00:26:53.160
a great spec for you and maybe it's because they

00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:54.680
got lots of that material and they can make good

00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:57.529
money on it Maybe it's because it's all they

00:26:57.529 --> 00:27:00.069
know. And, well, it's just easier than having

00:27:00.069 --> 00:27:02.890
to rewrite specs for every little department

00:27:02.890 --> 00:27:04.950
that's buying four and five and ten sets of gear

00:27:04.950 --> 00:27:08.349
at a time. But you've got to build your gear

00:27:08.349 --> 00:27:12.609
based on you, on your department. And I think

00:27:12.609 --> 00:27:15.029
that's something that slips. I know my own department,

00:27:15.269 --> 00:27:18.710
my volunteer department, I don't know that anybody

00:27:18.710 --> 00:27:21.210
field tested anything or did anything of that

00:27:21.210 --> 00:27:23.710
nature. But you've got to field test. You've

00:27:23.710 --> 00:27:26.559
got to make sure it works for you. I got to do

00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:28.539
some consulting work recently in a department

00:27:28.539 --> 00:27:31.619
in the mid -Atlantic who's getting ready to buy

00:27:31.619 --> 00:27:34.440
a ton of gear. And we sat down and we went over

00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:37.619
specs and we discussed new hood designs and so

00:27:37.619 --> 00:27:41.319
forth. And they are setting it up for them and

00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:43.640
for the long haul and for their members' health

00:27:43.640 --> 00:27:45.980
and safety. And their union's involved. Their

00:27:45.980 --> 00:27:49.519
fire chief is really, really good about it. She's

00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:52.660
been very open to change and to listening to

00:27:52.660 --> 00:27:55.569
her members. more so than dictating, hey, I'm

00:27:55.569 --> 00:27:59.750
the fire chief. This is what I want. So I think

00:27:59.750 --> 00:28:03.789
a lot of it goes into that as well. But again,

00:28:03.890 --> 00:28:06.470
it goes back to the breathability. It goes back

00:28:06.470 --> 00:28:09.630
into the thermal protective properties that you

00:28:09.630 --> 00:28:13.970
need. I know some departments now or some manufacturers

00:28:13.970 --> 00:28:16.890
who are pushing out these breathable, it's a

00:28:16.890 --> 00:28:19.150
much breathable gear, right? It lets the heat

00:28:19.150 --> 00:28:22.230
out much easier. Well, how much does it let the

00:28:22.230 --> 00:28:26.569
heat in? Did a burn in Rhode Island the other

00:28:26.569 --> 00:28:28.910
day for a department, and it was ungodly. We

00:28:28.910 --> 00:28:30.069
probably shouldn't have even done it. It was

00:28:30.069 --> 00:28:33.509
so damn hot. Heat index of 110, and we were doing

00:28:33.509 --> 00:28:35.910
a break -in burn for a new training facility.

00:28:36.549 --> 00:28:40.170
And after two burns, I was done. Whether I'm

00:28:40.170 --> 00:28:41.869
in shape, out of shape, or whatever, it didn't

00:28:41.869 --> 00:28:44.509
matter. Even the young kids who were rock star

00:28:44.509 --> 00:28:48.190
CrossFitters were done. But there was a guy who

00:28:48.190 --> 00:28:49.970
was field testing a brand new set of gear that

00:28:49.970 --> 00:28:54.140
that mid -Atlantic area is trying out. And this

00:28:54.140 --> 00:28:57.619
was for the military. And I said to him, why

00:28:57.619 --> 00:28:59.839
don't you get up front in the front of the burn

00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:03.200
can with me? And I'm wearing an older set. It's

00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:05.420
a two -year -old set of Morning Pride, but it

00:29:05.420 --> 00:29:09.220
was designed very, very well for what I do. It's

00:29:09.220 --> 00:29:11.619
an excellent spec. And he was wearing a different

00:29:11.619 --> 00:29:14.160
manufacturer. And I said, you want to field test

00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:16.220
it? This is how you field test it. Get up in

00:29:16.220 --> 00:29:18.319
here with me and let's see how you feel with

00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:21.609
it. And literally a couple minutes into the burn,

00:29:21.730 --> 00:29:23.670
I asked him, you know, you all right? Yeah, yeah,

00:29:23.670 --> 00:29:27.150
I'm all right. Okay. We go back outside afterwards

00:29:27.150 --> 00:29:29.329
and he's like, holy crap, I got so much hotter

00:29:29.329 --> 00:29:32.329
in this gear than I did in my other spec. Well,

00:29:32.470 --> 00:29:34.690
maybe that should tell you right there that,

00:29:34.690 --> 00:29:36.950
you know what, this might not be the right spec

00:29:36.950 --> 00:29:40.589
for you guys. And for their application, if you

00:29:40.589 --> 00:29:43.769
got that hot in what we were doing, what you

00:29:43.769 --> 00:29:46.920
would be required to do on the real job. not

00:29:46.920 --> 00:29:49.559
even structural, but other things that this organization

00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:52.720
is tasked with, that probably ain't the answer.

00:29:53.059 --> 00:29:57.019
So this could affect firefighter health and safety

00:29:57.019 --> 00:30:01.400
down the road for a long time, a long time. And

00:30:01.400 --> 00:30:04.680
it's a huge investment. You're talking what,

00:30:04.779 --> 00:30:08.000
for a set of gear now head to toe, you're anywhere

00:30:08.000 --> 00:30:10.299
from $5 ,000, $6 ,000 when it's all said and

00:30:10.299 --> 00:30:14.180
done. Yeah, exactly. It's funny you say that

00:30:14.180 --> 00:30:16.460
because my Anaheim gear was by far my favorite.

00:30:16.539 --> 00:30:19.920
And I definitely made entry in some barn burners

00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:23.279
in that. And I remember the next department,

00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:25.640
Orange County, I forget, but it was a different

00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:27.740
manufacturer, definitely a different style. And

00:30:27.740 --> 00:30:31.099
I remember exactly that. Less hot fires certainly

00:30:31.099 --> 00:30:34.200
felt hotter. And I never even thought about that.

00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:37.099
Different manufacturer, different specs. But

00:30:37.099 --> 00:30:39.559
yeah, I mean, if I could keep that one, so I

00:30:39.559 --> 00:30:40.920
have got them actually, they're in my garage,

00:30:40.980 --> 00:30:43.559
but if I could have had them my whole career,

00:30:43.619 --> 00:30:46.000
I would have been so much happier. So yeah, that

00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:49.000
does make a lot of sense. What about from station

00:30:49.000 --> 00:30:51.640
design before we kind of progress to your transition

00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:54.359
and all things, you know, modern day fire service,

00:30:54.460 --> 00:30:57.000
what are some of the exciting innovations that

00:30:57.000 --> 00:30:59.059
you're seeing as far as being able to design

00:30:59.059 --> 00:31:03.400
a station from, you know, ground zero up? So

00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:05.720
I haven't been real deeply involved in it, but

00:31:05.720 --> 00:31:08.059
I certainly am following it. And I looked yesterday.

00:31:08.099 --> 00:31:10.559
They had some really cool schematics and plans

00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:12.940
of a bunch of different firehouses that have

00:31:12.940 --> 00:31:15.599
been built around the country. And I was kind

00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:18.539
of checking them out at the break. But some of

00:31:18.539 --> 00:31:22.140
the I think the things that we're seeing is obviously

00:31:22.140 --> 00:31:24.940
the old traditional firehouses are really a thing

00:31:24.940 --> 00:31:28.480
of the past. We now have bunker gear rooms. So

00:31:28.480 --> 00:31:31.269
our gear isn't on racks. in the middle of the

00:31:31.269 --> 00:31:33.250
engine room like it used to be, not getting the

00:31:33.250 --> 00:31:35.589
carbon, not getting all the diesel exhaust, not

00:31:35.589 --> 00:31:38.910
getting the sunlight, not getting the bad UV

00:31:38.910 --> 00:31:41.190
that's going to degregate our gear so quickly,

00:31:41.289 --> 00:31:44.789
which, again, without PFAS coatings on that gear,

00:31:44.990 --> 00:31:48.269
UV is certainly going to affect it more. You're

00:31:48.269 --> 00:31:49.490
going to see the fading, and you're going to

00:31:49.490 --> 00:31:52.069
see it wearing more. Those fibers are going to

00:31:52.069 --> 00:31:55.349
take a beating. So I think the lighting changes

00:31:55.349 --> 00:31:58.849
are something. Obviously, the exhaust systems

00:31:58.849 --> 00:32:01.509
that are being put in these buildings are different,

00:32:01.769 --> 00:32:06.390
decon facilities, even the station alerting systems.

00:32:06.750 --> 00:32:09.650
They were starting to change those 10, 15, 20

00:32:09.650 --> 00:32:13.190
years ago, where you would go from a softer on

00:32:13.190 --> 00:32:16.250
up to a higher pitch sound and lighting and so

00:32:16.250 --> 00:32:18.329
forth. And I always thought it was cool, but

00:32:18.329 --> 00:32:21.569
it was so goddamn expensive that I don't know

00:32:21.569 --> 00:32:23.309
that a lot of people were able to afford to make

00:32:23.309 --> 00:32:26.650
those changes. But you're seeing a lot more of

00:32:26.650 --> 00:32:29.809
that innovation now. I can tell you the thing

00:32:29.809 --> 00:32:33.849
that I think that, again, this is an old guy's

00:32:33.849 --> 00:32:36.410
point of view, but the fact that we have individual

00:32:36.410 --> 00:32:39.170
bunk rooms for everybody has changed the culture

00:32:39.170 --> 00:32:42.089
in the firehouse. And I don't necessarily think

00:32:42.089 --> 00:32:46.569
it's in a good way. I really don't. Not that

00:32:46.569 --> 00:32:48.529
I want to listen to some bastard snoring all

00:32:48.529 --> 00:32:50.849
night or a CPAP machine or whatever else is going

00:32:50.849 --> 00:32:53.809
on or, you know, smell everybody that, you know.

00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:57.839
what they had for dinner. Can you hear that in

00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:00.740
the background? I can. Is that the Nazis coming?

00:33:01.140 --> 00:33:06.400
Yeah. So I am in Surf City, New Jersey, speaking

00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:09.660
of firehouses, on vacation on Long Beach Island.

00:33:10.359 --> 00:33:15.019
And our house is directly across from the volunteer

00:33:15.019 --> 00:33:18.559
firehouse here. So apparently they've got one.

00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:23.359
So it'll stop, I think, three to five blasts,

00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:26.900
and that's it. It's all good. It just adds character

00:33:26.900 --> 00:33:29.019
to the conversation. But it does take me back

00:33:29.019 --> 00:33:30.779
to the World War II footage, I've got to say.

00:33:30.900 --> 00:33:34.380
Yeah, yeah. You know, that was a big deal around

00:33:34.380 --> 00:33:37.460
us. Everybody had a siren or a horn, all the

00:33:37.460 --> 00:33:41.339
volunteer fire departments around us. And it

00:33:41.339 --> 00:33:44.819
was funny because oftentimes in certain towns,

00:33:45.019 --> 00:33:48.200
like the town I grew up in in New Egypt, our

00:33:48.200 --> 00:33:52.220
fire siren would blow. Like, I think it was five

00:33:52.220 --> 00:33:55.619
or eight times. And the volunteer first aid and

00:33:55.619 --> 00:33:58.640
ambulance squad siren would blow like three times.

00:33:58.900 --> 00:34:01.240
So it wasn't the same. So you could listen to

00:34:01.240 --> 00:34:03.720
how many times it went and you would know who

00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:05.559
had the run because this was a time where not

00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:08.079
everybody had pagers and all that. And they would

00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:11.920
all just respond to the firehouse. So for here,

00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:13.940
it's kind of interesting because being a shore

00:34:13.940 --> 00:34:17.300
town and the population is way up with tourists.

00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:20.340
it gives everybody a little bit of a warning

00:34:20.340 --> 00:34:22.360
that, hey, there's guys going to be coming in

00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:25.019
and trucks going out and be heads up on the street.

00:34:25.099 --> 00:34:28.539
So I guess maybe that's the theory still. I want

00:34:28.539 --> 00:34:30.460
to go back to individual dorms. So while we're

00:34:30.460 --> 00:34:32.460
on this topic, I know that we talked about this

00:34:32.460 --> 00:34:35.260
when we last sat down. Yeah. One of the things

00:34:35.260 --> 00:34:39.360
that I find crazy. is in areas that aren't remote,

00:34:39.500 --> 00:34:42.699
where obviously volunteer fire services make

00:34:42.699 --> 00:34:44.920
complete sense. You're in rural wherever, you

00:34:44.920 --> 00:34:48.000
know, the population of, you know, 127, especially

00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:50.900
in the Northeast where you have, as you mentioned,

00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:54.340
heavily populated tourist destinations, you know,

00:34:54.340 --> 00:34:59.380
suburban sprawling neighborhoods. To me, volunteerism

00:34:59.380 --> 00:35:01.219
is incredible, but this is also a profession

00:35:01.219 --> 00:35:04.280
where in an ideal world, you have a fully staffed

00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:08.150
career. that responds immediately, not when they

00:35:08.150 --> 00:35:10.030
finish their mechanics job, got in their car,

00:35:10.110 --> 00:35:11.690
gone to the station, grabbed their gear and then

00:35:11.690 --> 00:35:14.650
go to the fire. So what is your perspective on

00:35:14.650 --> 00:35:18.130
transitioning some of these busy suburban volunteer

00:35:18.130 --> 00:35:21.289
stations or departments into career and giving

00:35:21.289 --> 00:35:24.090
these men and women the financial support and

00:35:24.090 --> 00:35:26.010
the ability to actually make a profession out

00:35:26.010 --> 00:35:31.909
of it? It's way overdue. Number one, I think

00:35:31.909 --> 00:35:34.400
that there should... there's going to be more

00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:36.679
and more lawsuits. And there probably should

00:35:36.679 --> 00:35:39.400
be. And I know this will piss off some people

00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:41.360
that I say this because I've been a volunteer

00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:44.079
at FART since I was a 14 -year -old kid. And

00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:46.940
when I retired from the job, I asked the volunteer

00:35:46.940 --> 00:35:50.179
fire chief where I live, you know, in the town

00:35:50.179 --> 00:35:52.139
I grew up in. I actually live in the next town

00:35:52.139 --> 00:35:54.980
over now. But I said, Rick, I'd love to hang

00:35:54.980 --> 00:35:57.039
my gear back up and I'd love to respond again

00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:00.349
as a volunteer. I can't make everything. I live

00:36:00.349 --> 00:36:02.389
a ways away, so I'm going to be making the third

00:36:02.389 --> 00:36:04.829
truck or whatever. If you do duty crews, I'll

00:36:04.829 --> 00:36:09.010
come down and ride. But now they have a combination

00:36:09.010 --> 00:36:10.929
department. When I was there as a commissioner

00:36:10.929 --> 00:36:14.230
many years ago, I really pushed hard that we

00:36:14.230 --> 00:36:17.889
at least have a day crew. And I don't see the

00:36:17.889 --> 00:36:21.590
total need for a night paid crew, but they sure

00:36:21.590 --> 00:36:23.530
as hell could be putting people in there doing

00:36:23.530 --> 00:36:25.909
duty crews and making sure they're staffing.

00:36:26.110 --> 00:36:29.050
And when you can't staff. then it's time to hire

00:36:29.050 --> 00:36:32.449
and and it these people that are that are skirting

00:36:32.449 --> 00:36:34.829
this issue and and i understand company pride

00:36:34.829 --> 00:36:38.670
and i and i get it but jesus christ if it's your

00:36:38.670 --> 00:36:40.690
family that's trapped on the third floor of that

00:36:40.690 --> 00:36:44.909
house and you know the smoke is pushing i'm not

00:36:44.909 --> 00:36:47.250
i don't have the time for you to wait you know

00:36:47.250 --> 00:36:50.429
again to respond from home and after you know

00:36:50.429 --> 00:36:53.329
get there safely which a lot of them don't and

00:36:53.329 --> 00:36:57.619
it just doesn't make sense now you know I got

00:36:57.619 --> 00:36:59.860
a buddy that lives out in the middle of Idaho

00:36:59.860 --> 00:37:02.860
in the Rocky Mountains. They're never going to

00:37:02.860 --> 00:37:04.559
have a career fire department where he lives.

00:37:04.739 --> 00:37:07.860
It's a massive area. It's mostly forest. It's

00:37:07.860 --> 00:37:11.780
a small town. Totally get it. But when you choose

00:37:11.780 --> 00:37:15.500
to live there, you make that choice, right? You

00:37:15.500 --> 00:37:17.500
make that choice that your sheriff's department

00:37:17.500 --> 00:37:19.980
is only so big and they can only do so much for

00:37:19.980 --> 00:37:22.440
you and your fire department can only do so much

00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:24.420
for you. But when you're in populated areas,

00:37:24.679 --> 00:37:27.719
you look at Long Island. right you look at north

00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:31.440
jersey and all of new jersey really and uh most

00:37:31.440 --> 00:37:34.739
of these places the taxes that people are paying

00:37:34.739 --> 00:37:38.099
are exorbitant and the services they're getting

00:37:38.099 --> 00:37:40.360
if they knew the true services they're getting

00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:42.400
and it's not to slight the volunteers because

00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:44.840
there's some damn fine volunteer firemen you

00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:46.780
know guys who i would rather go to fires with

00:37:46.780 --> 00:37:48.860
with some of these volunteers than some of the

00:37:48.860 --> 00:37:51.860
people i work with and then that's so it's no

00:37:51.860 --> 00:37:54.619
slight to the volunteers but it doesn't compare

00:37:55.150 --> 00:37:58.730
And they're being cheated. And we're rolling

00:37:58.730 --> 00:38:01.369
the dice on their lives. That's what we're doing.

00:38:01.929 --> 00:38:04.929
So even if we were paying per diems or we were

00:38:04.929 --> 00:38:08.269
putting guys up on duty crews in the firehouses,

00:38:08.349 --> 00:38:11.829
some of them are starting to go to live -in programs.

00:38:12.010 --> 00:38:14.190
I know there's several of them in Maryland and

00:38:14.190 --> 00:38:16.010
Pennsylvania and I think even here in Jersey.

00:38:16.150 --> 00:38:17.929
A couple of them on the Jersey Shore are starting

00:38:17.929 --> 00:38:22.630
to do that. Do it, man. Make the attempt and

00:38:22.630 --> 00:38:26.780
let's progress. But if you're not going to staff

00:38:26.780 --> 00:38:30.320
and you're not going to support them, you're

00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:32.500
rolling the dice, man, and you can't trust it.

00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:36.000
Like where I'm at right now, I can look out this

00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:42.480
window and see just in my view probably 10 multimillion

00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:44.980
-dollar homes that have been built here in the

00:38:44.980 --> 00:38:49.500
last five years that are loaded with tourists,

00:38:49.719 --> 00:38:52.639
right, that are Airbnb rental. I'm sitting in

00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:56.460
a rental that my wife and I rent. It's ridiculous.

00:38:57.079 --> 00:38:58.760
They're not getting the service they deserve.

00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:00.940
There's no way in hell they are. And we as a

00:39:00.940 --> 00:39:02.880
fire service, if we're not going to eat a little

00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:06.280
bit of pride, push a little ego back down and

00:39:06.280 --> 00:39:10.960
do the right thing. And we can blame the town

00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:13.480
administrators. We can blame the government all

00:39:13.480 --> 00:39:16.260
we want. And that's what we do. That's what the

00:39:16.260 --> 00:39:18.679
union does. That's what we all do. Bottom line

00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:20.820
is, if we're not willing to bring the problem

00:39:20.820 --> 00:39:23.989
to the forefront and say to them. Our response

00:39:23.989 --> 00:39:25.690
times aren't as good as what they should be,

00:39:25.789 --> 00:39:28.250
right? This is a pretty good volunteer fire department

00:39:28.250 --> 00:39:30.510
from everything I can see. They're getting out

00:39:30.510 --> 00:39:33.210
the door normally in that probably four to five

00:39:33.210 --> 00:39:36.550
minute range. For volunteers, that ain't bad,

00:39:36.809 --> 00:39:40.190
right? But coming from the firehouse I worked

00:39:40.190 --> 00:39:42.329
in where the guys would run through there, slide

00:39:42.329 --> 00:39:44.610
that pole, get on the rig, and be out the door

00:39:44.610 --> 00:39:47.690
in a minute to a minute and a half? Well, three

00:39:47.690 --> 00:39:49.929
to four minute difference makes a hell of a difference.

00:39:51.849 --> 00:39:56.510
It's time for us to bear our souls a little bit,

00:39:56.570 --> 00:39:59.489
pull our skeleton out of the closet, admit that,

00:39:59.510 --> 00:40:01.989
hey, we're not doing as good a job as we could.

00:40:02.150 --> 00:40:06.190
You as a town or a city administration need to

00:40:06.190 --> 00:40:08.809
address this, and let's come up with an answer

00:40:08.809 --> 00:40:11.309
to it together. But if we're not willing to tell

00:40:11.309 --> 00:40:13.630
them there's a problem, even if they know there

00:40:13.630 --> 00:40:17.269
is, they're not going to just offer it up. It's

00:40:17.269 --> 00:40:18.889
just not going to happen, at least not in my

00:40:18.889 --> 00:40:23.239
experience. Yeah. And this, I mean, I agree completely,

00:40:23.239 --> 00:40:25.280
even from the career side, which, you know, we

00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:27.019
talked about last time we spoke, but you know,

00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:30.599
the, the 24 72 that now is really starting to

00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:33.539
take hold in Florida. That comes out the same

00:40:33.539 --> 00:40:35.420
thing. Yeah. But I mean, you know, this whole

00:40:35.420 --> 00:40:38.119
thing of like, we're okay. You know, and I did

00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:40.019
a presentation a couple of times. I don't normally

00:40:40.019 --> 00:40:43.440
speak. I'm not a public speaker at all, but when

00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:45.159
I've done it, there's a slide that says whose

00:40:45.159 --> 00:40:47.719
fault is it? And there's a ladder. And the point

00:40:47.719 --> 00:40:50.780
is, it's all of us. Whether you're the firefighter,

00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:52.619
whether you're the chief, whether you're the

00:40:52.619 --> 00:40:54.039
city administrator, whether you're the union,

00:40:54.280 --> 00:40:57.039
none of us have done a good job telling the public

00:40:57.039 --> 00:41:00.179
what we do, where we are effective, and then

00:41:00.179 --> 00:41:02.280
where the shortcomings are. And I think this

00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:04.780
volunteer conversation, it's not a smite to the

00:41:04.780 --> 00:41:06.340
volunteers. It's the opposite. It's supporting

00:41:06.340 --> 00:41:08.900
them. You know, having a career force of the

00:41:08.900 --> 00:41:11.460
people, like you said, that were, you know, better

00:41:11.460 --> 00:41:13.079
than some of the career firefighters that you

00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:16.230
work with, you know, having a bar. So that we

00:41:16.230 --> 00:41:18.329
avoid some of these tragedies with volunteer

00:41:18.329 --> 00:41:20.949
firefighters that, you know, just are not in

00:41:20.949 --> 00:41:23.250
the physical shape to be doing this job. Let's

00:41:23.250 --> 00:41:26.269
be honest. There's an issue there. And then the

00:41:26.269 --> 00:41:27.909
delivery of service, because, I mean, there's

00:41:27.909 --> 00:41:30.349
an easy comparison. Do you have a volunteer police

00:41:30.349 --> 00:41:33.690
force? Then why not? You know what I mean? That's

00:41:33.690 --> 00:41:36.469
it. Mic drop. So, of course, you know, when you're.

00:41:37.050 --> 00:41:39.150
Please, please. Tradition, James. It goes right

00:41:39.150 --> 00:41:43.809
back to tradition. Yeah. Yeah. If my teenager

00:41:43.809 --> 00:41:46.429
is bleeding to death in an overturned car, or

00:41:46.429 --> 00:41:49.849
as you said, my young child is stuck in the attic

00:41:49.849 --> 00:41:53.070
during a structure fire, do I want those people

00:41:53.070 --> 00:41:55.630
to go from the mechanic shop to the station,

00:41:55.769 --> 00:41:58.090
grab their gear, fire up the rig, hope that the

00:41:58.090 --> 00:42:00.710
air brakes release because they drained because

00:42:00.710 --> 00:42:02.530
they haven't been maintained properly, and finally

00:42:02.530 --> 00:42:06.389
pull out the station to a charred out home or

00:42:06.389 --> 00:42:09.590
an expired teenager? Or do I want a group of

00:42:09.590 --> 00:42:12.429
highly trained men and women? I mean, this is

00:42:12.429 --> 00:42:14.750
my experience in my career, too. 60 seconds,

00:42:14.969 --> 00:42:17.889
you know, you're dressed up on the rig. And then,

00:42:17.889 --> 00:42:19.750
you know, by that point, your engineer obviously

00:42:19.750 --> 00:42:21.250
isn't bunkering up and you're already out the

00:42:21.250 --> 00:42:23.510
door. You know, so, yeah, I mean, it was always

00:42:23.510 --> 00:42:26.550
we were always held to a high standard. So, you

00:42:26.550 --> 00:42:29.429
know, it's a non -argument. If you're in somewhere

00:42:29.429 --> 00:42:31.409
where you've got the tax base to support it,

00:42:31.429 --> 00:42:33.869
which I would argue was probably most of New

00:42:33.869 --> 00:42:36.789
Jersey. And this also applies to our incredible

00:42:36.789 --> 00:42:39.269
ocean lifeguards that also should have this support.

00:42:40.269 --> 00:42:42.510
Then if we're not prioritizing the incredible

00:42:42.510 --> 00:42:45.550
life safety issue that they are the solution

00:42:45.550 --> 00:42:48.530
to, then we've completely dropped the ball. And

00:42:48.530 --> 00:42:50.369
like you said, that's not just the politicians.

00:42:50.809 --> 00:42:53.190
It's all the way down, including the people that

00:42:53.190 --> 00:42:56.190
we serve need to crack a book and find out what

00:42:56.190 --> 00:42:59.250
we actually do and the impact of our job and

00:42:59.250 --> 00:43:01.809
the downside of the volunteer fire service. But

00:43:01.809 --> 00:43:04.650
this is a beautiful opportunity to move some

00:43:04.650 --> 00:43:08.849
of the volunteer areas that are so... densely

00:43:08.849 --> 00:43:11.829
populated now into the career field. And like

00:43:11.829 --> 00:43:14.909
you said, using volunteerism to support that,

00:43:15.030 --> 00:43:18.329
but having a core group of career men and women

00:43:18.329 --> 00:43:22.329
that do respond the moment the call hits. Yeah,

00:43:22.429 --> 00:43:25.570
I agree. I really do agree. And there's some

00:43:25.570 --> 00:43:28.070
places where the volunteers are still just crushing

00:43:28.070 --> 00:43:31.409
it. They are, in my opinion, they are the oddballs

00:43:31.409 --> 00:43:35.030
in reality. But a great example, I can tell you,

00:43:35.030 --> 00:43:38.190
we do a ton of training in Louisiana. And it's

00:43:38.190 --> 00:43:40.210
weird, right? On -scene training has been around

00:43:40.210 --> 00:43:44.030
for 20 years, over 20 years. And you always find,

00:43:44.050 --> 00:43:46.610
I think every training group has an area that

00:43:46.610 --> 00:43:48.550
people take to them and they do well with that

00:43:48.550 --> 00:43:50.570
group. And then word spreads and it just goes.

00:43:50.889 --> 00:43:54.530
And we've become that in South Louisiana, which

00:43:54.530 --> 00:43:57.070
is totally weird for a company that's owned by

00:43:57.070 --> 00:43:59.429
a guy from New Jersey, right? To the point where

00:43:59.429 --> 00:44:03.489
my son moved to Thibodeau, Louisiana and is now

00:44:03.489 --> 00:44:08.340
on the job in Baton Rouge. But that's a great

00:44:08.340 --> 00:44:11.800
example. So that town of Thibodeau, it's a small

00:44:11.800 --> 00:44:14.360
city south of New Orleans, about 45 minutes to

00:44:14.360 --> 00:44:18.219
an hour south. They are so deep in tradition.

00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:21.400
And I mean, the history of that place and the

00:44:21.400 --> 00:44:23.539
love of their tradition and the love of their

00:44:23.539 --> 00:44:26.019
fire service is like I've never seen anywhere

00:44:26.019 --> 00:44:28.500
in the world. All the travels I've been to, I

00:44:28.500 --> 00:44:31.659
just never experienced it like these guys. And

00:44:31.659 --> 00:44:33.559
their dedication to training, their dedication

00:44:33.559 --> 00:44:36.000
to the job, their dedication to their community.

00:44:36.869 --> 00:44:41.309
is truly second to none. And I just, I know it

00:44:41.309 --> 00:44:43.769
sounds like I'm gushing over these guys and they

00:44:43.769 --> 00:44:45.349
have their flaws and they have their problems

00:44:45.349 --> 00:44:47.670
and they have their inner battles like all of

00:44:47.670 --> 00:44:51.389
us. But man, they are the one place that I watch

00:44:51.389 --> 00:44:53.570
do it totally different than the rest of us.

00:44:53.869 --> 00:44:56.389
So the only ones who go to the firehouse are

00:44:56.389 --> 00:44:58.690
the chauffeurs or the engineer or whatever driver

00:44:58.690 --> 00:45:01.610
operator picks up a rig and everybody else is

00:45:01.610 --> 00:45:03.929
kind of an all y 'all where they're all riding

00:45:03.929 --> 00:45:07.940
POV to the scene. And everybody meets there.

00:45:08.039 --> 00:45:10.280
The rig pulls up. They make the hookups. They

00:45:10.280 --> 00:45:13.679
do their stretches. It's pretty unbelievable

00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:17.539
to watch them operate, and they do a job as good

00:45:17.539 --> 00:45:20.219
as most career departments I've seen. But they're

00:45:20.219 --> 00:45:23.019
the anomaly, truly the anomaly, because they

00:45:23.019 --> 00:45:27.460
just push themselves so goddang hard. And I look

00:45:27.460 --> 00:45:31.340
at my own department, and I go, we're not as

00:45:31.340 --> 00:45:33.860
good as they are. We're just not in my volunteer

00:45:33.860 --> 00:45:37.460
department. We could be better. And just have

00:45:37.460 --> 00:45:40.000
to face the facts of where we're falling down

00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:43.639
and where we need to be better. I know it's easy

00:45:43.639 --> 00:45:47.119
and it sounds like utopian thinking, but God

00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:49.300
damn, if you got the will, it's not that hard.

00:45:49.639 --> 00:45:52.400
But it's having the will to take the first step.

00:45:52.719 --> 00:45:54.900
And man, taking that first step, sometimes you

00:45:54.900 --> 00:45:58.019
need a foot in your ass to do it. And you don't

00:45:58.019 --> 00:46:00.199
want it to be when the kid is, like you said,

00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:02.719
bleeding out on the side of the road or trapped

00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:06.440
upstairs. and now oh we should have we should

00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:09.139
have been better we should have done better and

00:46:09.139 --> 00:46:11.300
we're going to work on that try explaining that

00:46:11.300 --> 00:46:14.260
to a family right it's it's just like what we

00:46:14.260 --> 00:46:16.239
see on the news every day when you see somebody

00:46:16.239 --> 00:46:18.219
who was murdered and they say crime's not really

00:46:18.219 --> 00:46:20.719
that bad well maybe it ain't that bad but sure

00:46:20.719 --> 00:46:22.280
as hell is that a family of the kid who just

00:46:22.280 --> 00:46:26.880
got killed so there's no excuse there really

00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:32.840
isn't just you got to have a will maybe Well,

00:46:32.860 --> 00:46:35.000
we take this conversation where you wish, but

00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:39.780
I think that's when we can talk more about generational

00:46:39.780 --> 00:46:43.239
differences. Yeah, no, we'll jump in that now.

00:46:43.300 --> 00:46:45.840
I think just to parallel what you're talking

00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:48.360
about. I mean, for almost nine years now, I've

00:46:48.360 --> 00:46:50.820
been talking about the 24 -72. Now my understanding

00:46:50.820 --> 00:46:53.039
and storytelling has grown with all the guests

00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:55.659
that have brought. all this information. And

00:46:55.659 --> 00:46:57.619
now, you know, we're at the beginning of a revolution

00:46:57.619 --> 00:47:00.900
here in Florida. And I think, you know, it's

00:47:00.900 --> 00:47:02.760
like Indiana Jones and the boulder, like you're

00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:04.699
not going to get out of it now. It's happening.

00:47:05.059 --> 00:47:07.659
But, you know, the number of years I was told,

00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:10.119
oh, you know, that's ridiculous. Again, no, that's

00:47:10.119 --> 00:47:12.679
utopia. I remember my first part -time job. That'll

00:47:12.679 --> 00:47:14.119
never happen. Where's the money going to come

00:47:14.119 --> 00:47:16.860
from? We can't even hire now. Everyone told me

00:47:16.860 --> 00:47:18.960
every reason why it wouldn't work, but not a

00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:21.420
fucking single person said, let's figure out

00:47:21.420 --> 00:47:24.000
how we can make this work. Until more recently,

00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:27.300
some of these fantastic departments like Boynton

00:47:27.300 --> 00:47:29.800
Beach and Pasco County and Gainesville said,

00:47:29.820 --> 00:47:32.559
hold my beer. Let's make this happen. You know,

00:47:32.559 --> 00:47:34.739
and they developed in the meantime relationships

00:47:34.739 --> 00:47:37.480
with their, you know, the unions, with their,

00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:39.320
you know, the city and county council members.

00:47:39.460 --> 00:47:41.420
And, you know, lo and behold, when they showed

00:47:41.420 --> 00:47:43.619
them the money that would be saved as well, this

00:47:43.619 --> 00:47:45.559
thing turned around. I think that's the problem

00:47:45.559 --> 00:47:48.219
with the fire service, which we'll get to, you

00:47:48.219 --> 00:47:49.559
know, with what we're going to talk about next

00:47:49.559 --> 00:47:53.789
is. We love to say how it won't work. And I kind

00:47:53.789 --> 00:47:56.269
of, you know, I, I call people out. I'm like,

00:47:56.289 --> 00:47:58.530
well, what a second on your Instagram. You've

00:47:58.530 --> 00:48:00.489
told me how fucking courageous you are. You've

00:48:00.489 --> 00:48:02.210
got your mustache and your leather helmet and

00:48:02.210 --> 00:48:04.210
you're doing your duck walk, spinning the hose

00:48:04.210 --> 00:48:06.869
around or filming yourself in shorts, doing a,

00:48:06.869 --> 00:48:10.289
you know, a door prop, real heroic stuff. Where's

00:48:10.289 --> 00:48:12.110
your courage when it comes to standing up for

00:48:12.110 --> 00:48:14.719
the things that really matter. delivery of service,

00:48:14.880 --> 00:48:16.860
the ability to go home when you're supposed to

00:48:16.860 --> 00:48:19.420
go home to your family. So this is where I think

00:48:19.420 --> 00:48:22.260
we're starting to see a turn now is some of this,

00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:24.639
you know, ego and narcissism that we've seen

00:48:24.639 --> 00:48:27.760
on some of the fire influencers, you know, and

00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:30.460
these loud mouths, you know, that I have to make

00:48:30.460 --> 00:48:33.860
me want to throw up that are all about themselves.

00:48:34.779 --> 00:48:36.440
It's me. I thought it was supposed to be for

00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:38.300
them, but it's not. It's you and your Instagram

00:48:38.300 --> 00:48:41.539
platform and your training, whatever it is. And

00:48:41.539 --> 00:48:43.920
going back to, well, why the hell did you sign

00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:45.719
up in the first place? It was for other people.

00:48:45.760 --> 00:48:48.179
And those other people include your wife, husband,

00:48:48.239 --> 00:48:51.119
children, and going back to them. So I think

00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:53.619
that getting away from the narcissism and the

00:48:53.619 --> 00:48:55.699
ego, and also, I'll be completely honest, the

00:48:55.699 --> 00:48:57.559
fucking cowardice that I'm seeing in some of

00:48:57.559 --> 00:49:00.920
our profession, and back to actually doing, simply

00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:03.460
doing the right thing. Whether you're going and

00:49:03.460 --> 00:49:05.480
saying, hey, these volunteers need to be paid.

00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:08.619
Enough is enough. You have a tax base of this

00:49:08.619 --> 00:49:11.679
many billion dollars, you know, or million dollars.

00:49:11.780 --> 00:49:14.480
You know, this needs to change. Or, you know,

00:49:14.480 --> 00:49:17.340
as we're going to get to, you know, let's put

00:49:17.340 --> 00:49:19.800
this pride back in the fire service. Because

00:49:19.800 --> 00:49:23.179
the reality is the last 20 years, a lot of our

00:49:23.179 --> 00:49:25.320
air quotes leaders have completely fucked it

00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:27.639
up to the point where you have a national recruitment

00:49:27.639 --> 00:49:31.389
crisis. That's on them. Newsflash, if you were

00:49:31.389 --> 00:49:33.550
in any sort of leadership position, union, fire,

00:49:33.909 --> 00:49:37.429
city, county, and we are now at a point where

00:49:37.429 --> 00:49:39.289
a lot of young people don't want to do this anymore,

00:49:39.429 --> 00:49:42.969
that is an epic failure and it's on your shoulders.

00:49:43.090 --> 00:49:45.690
So I'm excited that we're starting to see it

00:49:45.690 --> 00:49:48.250
turn around with some of these initiatives. But

00:49:48.250 --> 00:49:50.389
people have got to understand that they are responsible

00:49:50.389 --> 00:49:53.789
for this decline and we need to do things differently.

00:49:53.909 --> 00:49:55.829
You can't just beat your chest and say greatest

00:49:55.829 --> 00:49:58.010
job in the world and not actually put any effort

00:49:58.010 --> 00:50:01.940
into making it better. Yeah, and that's exactly

00:50:01.940 --> 00:50:04.199
right. You know, I was blessed. I came on the

00:50:04.199 --> 00:50:08.639
job working the Philly schedule. So this was

00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:11.880
1990. When I was getting hired, I got offered

00:50:11.880 --> 00:50:14.340
a job in Hamilton, New Jersey and Lakehurst Navy

00:50:14.340 --> 00:50:17.920
Base where the Hindenburg crashed. And my dad

00:50:17.920 --> 00:50:19.980
was a Navy guy. I was looking at going in the

00:50:19.980 --> 00:50:23.420
Navy possibly because I just wasn't happy with

00:50:23.420 --> 00:50:26.000
a lot of things. And I thought, well, maybe I'll

00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:27.780
go into service. And he kind of talked me out

00:50:27.780 --> 00:50:30.599
of that, even though he was in the service. Politically,

00:50:30.699 --> 00:50:34.340
he did not think that it was a good idea. And

00:50:34.340 --> 00:50:37.380
he was probably right because we went to Iraq

00:50:37.380 --> 00:50:44.059
two years later. But I got offered both those

00:50:44.059 --> 00:50:46.840
jobs within the same week. And Navy Lakers was

00:50:46.840 --> 00:50:49.940
working that old military 24 -on, 24 -off, 24

00:50:49.940 --> 00:50:54.239
-on, never -off type schedule. And you were getting

00:50:54.239 --> 00:50:58.599
held 72 or 96 straight. and then you would get

00:50:58.599 --> 00:51:01.199
maybe 24 off and then you get brought back in

00:51:01.199 --> 00:51:03.460
and it was a crazy schedule and it was making

00:51:03.460 --> 00:51:05.559
honest to god the starting salary at the time

00:51:05.559 --> 00:51:07.440
was fifteen thousand one hundred dollars a year

00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:11.019
right but hey we get great medical benefits is

00:51:11.019 --> 00:51:13.639
what they told me and hamilton called me and

00:51:13.639 --> 00:51:16.360
i tested for them and and they said uh you know

00:51:16.360 --> 00:51:18.400
so i asked the commissioner who called me what's

00:51:18.400 --> 00:51:20.739
the schedule and what's the pay he says it's

00:51:20.739 --> 00:51:23.920
the philly schedule two 10 hour days two 14 hour

00:51:23.920 --> 00:51:26.380
nights and then you're off for four days Oh,

00:51:26.460 --> 00:51:28.559
I like that better. Four days off. That's great.

00:51:28.599 --> 00:51:30.800
I can work my side gig. My parents own a flea

00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:33.960
market. My mom still owns it at 90 years old,

00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:36.780
almost 91 years old and still runs it. So I could

00:51:36.780 --> 00:51:39.219
still work out there. Cool. And I was going to

00:51:39.219 --> 00:51:42.300
get paid $23 ,000 a year. And I thought, hell

00:51:42.300 --> 00:51:44.059
yeah, man, I'm going to make eight grand a year

00:51:44.059 --> 00:51:46.559
more, work a better schedule. I immediately went

00:51:46.559 --> 00:51:49.659
to that job and that's where I stayed until the

00:51:49.659 --> 00:51:53.789
day I retired. And maybe. A third or halfway

00:51:53.789 --> 00:51:57.769
through my career, we switched to 2472. Simply

00:51:57.769 --> 00:51:59.550
because it was the same four platoon system.

00:52:00.190 --> 00:52:02.469
But a lot of our guys who were traveling further

00:52:02.469 --> 00:52:05.690
said, man, this 10s and 14s suck. I'm driving

00:52:05.690 --> 00:52:08.969
up and back four times, you know, every week.

00:52:09.150 --> 00:52:12.289
I could do this twice a week and, you know, get

00:52:12.289 --> 00:52:15.309
my breaks. And at first I was like, man, I don't

00:52:15.309 --> 00:52:17.110
know if I want to do that. Only three days off.

00:52:17.210 --> 00:52:20.739
I like my four days off. Then I realized, wait,

00:52:20.820 --> 00:52:25.320
if I work at 24, I've got probably a day to recover,

00:52:25.460 --> 00:52:27.760
two days I can work a side gig, and then come

00:52:27.760 --> 00:52:29.800
right back in rested, ready to go do what I got

00:52:29.800 --> 00:52:32.900
to do. It was a no -brainer. So we did it. We

00:52:32.900 --> 00:52:36.059
took everything we did back then. It was just,

00:52:36.119 --> 00:52:37.960
we're going to do this on a test basis for 30

00:52:37.960 --> 00:52:41.420
days or 60 days. I swear to God, every time we

00:52:41.420 --> 00:52:43.239
did something, it was for the better, and it

00:52:43.239 --> 00:52:47.800
never changed. triple A's to flat packs and minute

00:52:47.800 --> 00:52:49.860
man's. This is the exact same way. We're gonna

00:52:49.860 --> 00:52:51.960
try these for a month. See if you guys like it.

00:52:51.980 --> 00:52:55.860
You know, so I was blessed to work in that in

00:52:55.860 --> 00:52:58.619
that 24 72 schedule for the majority of my career.

00:52:58.780 --> 00:53:07.219
And I I reluctantly say this, but I don't know

00:53:07.219 --> 00:53:11.940
that I felt the kind of angst and other problems

00:53:11.940 --> 00:53:16.860
that a lot of my peers felt. working 24 -48s

00:53:16.860 --> 00:53:19.400
and other ships from around the country. You

00:53:19.400 --> 00:53:21.500
know, I've got a lot of friends. We're on -scene

00:53:21.500 --> 00:53:24.139
training. We've got like 30 people in our organization

00:53:24.139 --> 00:53:26.940
and group. Most of them didn't work that schedule.

00:53:27.539 --> 00:53:30.099
And I saw them going through a lot more shit

00:53:30.099 --> 00:53:36.119
than I went through. And now, especially with

00:53:36.119 --> 00:53:38.159
what you're doing and others are doing to cast

00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:42.460
light on the importance of getting our sleep

00:53:42.460 --> 00:53:44.969
and not being deprived. everything that goes

00:53:44.969 --> 00:53:48.449
with it, that this schedule can afford you. Now

00:53:48.449 --> 00:53:50.510
I look back at it and I go, I think the schedule

00:53:50.510 --> 00:53:53.030
is one of the reasons that I was as successful

00:53:53.030 --> 00:53:56.010
as I was when I was working. Not that I didn't

00:53:56.010 --> 00:54:00.510
have my issues and my crap, but man, if I was

00:54:00.510 --> 00:54:02.750
working that 24 -48, I might have been an even

00:54:02.750 --> 00:54:09.190
bigger mess. And again, the union's got to fight.

00:54:09.639 --> 00:54:11.679
the the firemen have to fight for themselves

00:54:11.679 --> 00:54:14.840
they can't just eat the and say well this is

00:54:14.840 --> 00:54:17.340
what we have to do you know i come from a town

00:54:17.340 --> 00:54:19.820
where we fought the fight and we consolidated

00:54:19.820 --> 00:54:22.119
an entire fire department we might not have done

00:54:22.119 --> 00:54:25.679
it all right and and we've done some things there

00:54:25.679 --> 00:54:28.960
that i think were total mistakes and we really

00:54:28.960 --> 00:54:32.260
screwed some up but in in reality our people

00:54:32.260 --> 00:54:35.199
came to bat and and said enough we're going to

00:54:35.199 --> 00:54:37.000
do this the right way we're going to protect

00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:39.500
our citizens better we want this And we made

00:54:39.500 --> 00:54:41.980
some demands and we won some things. And some

00:54:41.980 --> 00:54:44.139
things we won we might have lost in the end because

00:54:44.139 --> 00:54:47.800
we weren't that smart. But you've got to take

00:54:47.800 --> 00:54:49.900
a stand. And if you're not willing to take a

00:54:49.900 --> 00:54:53.119
stand, as you said, you've got to man up or woman

00:54:53.119 --> 00:54:55.760
up or whatever you want to call it. And it's

00:54:55.760 --> 00:54:59.000
time. It's certainly time with the suicide rates,

00:54:59.019 --> 00:55:00.900
with the illnesses that we're seeing, with all

00:55:00.900 --> 00:55:04.199
the divorces that we see, right? All of these

00:55:04.199 --> 00:55:07.210
things compounded. What's it going to take for

00:55:07.210 --> 00:55:09.409
people to step up and go enough's enough? And

00:55:09.409 --> 00:55:11.809
this is this messed up. We got to change it.

00:55:12.110 --> 00:55:16.630
And I think the 24 -72 is a big, big part of

00:55:16.630 --> 00:55:20.309
it. Well, it's funny, even with the PFAS conversation,

00:55:20.489 --> 00:55:23.429
you notice how quickly unions jumped on that.

00:55:24.070 --> 00:55:26.650
And I've always said, well, of course you. Of

00:55:26.650 --> 00:55:27.670
course, you're going to jump on that because

00:55:27.670 --> 00:55:29.630
you just point your finger at someone else. The

00:55:29.630 --> 00:55:31.570
gear manufacturers, the phone manufacturers.

00:55:31.630 --> 00:55:33.690
Now, is it a piece of the puzzle? Yeah, my blood

00:55:33.690 --> 00:55:35.630
work shows that James Gearing is riddled with

00:55:35.630 --> 00:55:38.090
PFAS. And I'm hoping for everyone listening,

00:55:38.250 --> 00:55:40.929
Cambiotics is creating a probiotic that we are

00:55:40.929 --> 00:55:43.670
hoping will remove PFAS from the human body.

00:55:43.750 --> 00:55:45.349
And I'm going to be a guinea pig. And I hope

00:55:45.349 --> 00:55:48.289
to be an evangelist for this and help the population.

00:55:48.449 --> 00:55:51.110
And just as a side note, exactly. This is how,

00:55:51.250 --> 00:55:54.019
you know. greater company is they sent me a thing

00:55:54.019 --> 00:55:57.300
with the map for my home of ocala saying by the

00:55:57.300 --> 00:56:00.019
way james this is how many times like you know

00:56:00.019 --> 00:56:03.400
thousand times more pfas levels are in your area

00:56:03.400 --> 00:56:05.820
too now we try and drink spring water but even

00:56:05.820 --> 00:56:08.440
then does the bottle have pfas i don't know so

00:56:08.440 --> 00:56:11.239
right regardless but and then again with you

00:56:11.239 --> 00:56:13.619
know if we're talking innovation the individual

00:56:13.619 --> 00:56:17.340
dorms If they are not managed properly, because

00:56:17.340 --> 00:56:19.179
I think they're fantastic. I mean, why wake up

00:56:19.179 --> 00:56:21.179
a different crew that doesn't need to go on the

00:56:21.179 --> 00:56:24.880
call? But it has to be mandated by the lieutenant,

00:56:25.059 --> 00:56:27.699
station commander, whatever it is. When you're

00:56:27.699 --> 00:56:29.219
taking a nap, go into your room. Absolutely.

00:56:29.380 --> 00:56:31.119
At night, go into your room. But the rest of

00:56:31.119 --> 00:56:33.539
the time, communal areas. Because I agree, that

00:56:33.539 --> 00:56:35.880
can be the death of a crew if you're just hiding

00:56:35.880 --> 00:56:38.900
in your dorm. So that can be managed. you know

00:56:38.900 --> 00:56:41.380
well as well but yes a lot of these innovations

00:56:41.380 --> 00:56:43.780
you know i think are really important but going

00:56:43.780 --> 00:56:46.179
to the cancer thing i was in my mind i got lost

00:56:46.179 --> 00:56:49.579
and i'm circling around now in the cancer conversation

00:56:49.579 --> 00:56:52.239
the one that they don't want to talk about is

00:56:52.239 --> 00:56:54.539
that sleep deprivation shift work is a known

00:56:54.539 --> 00:56:57.300
carcinogen right so we're talking about this

00:56:57.300 --> 00:56:59.119
chemical that we've got on our body that you

00:56:59.119 --> 00:57:01.460
know is is a new discovery that's absolutely

00:57:01.460 --> 00:57:05.119
a piece of the puzzle but every third day We're

00:57:05.119 --> 00:57:07.239
doing the very thing that causes cancer, that

00:57:07.239 --> 00:57:09.119
causes weight gain, that depletes testosterone,

00:57:09.420 --> 00:57:12.519
that causes infertility, that causes alcoholism,

00:57:12.559 --> 00:57:14.920
that doesn't allow you to process trauma. All

00:57:14.920 --> 00:57:17.239
these things are direct, scientifically proven

00:57:17.239 --> 00:57:20.159
correlations. And we turn our head to that and

00:57:20.159 --> 00:57:22.780
we go, oh, this is chemical in our gear. Yes,

00:57:22.840 --> 00:57:25.739
there is. But let's look at the even bigger piece

00:57:25.739 --> 00:57:27.699
of the puzzle. And by the way, the Northeast

00:57:27.699 --> 00:57:29.880
has been working this shift. DC is one of them

00:57:29.880 --> 00:57:33.219
as well for decades. And you're acting like this

00:57:33.219 --> 00:57:35.239
is never going to happen. It's a unicorn fight

00:57:35.239 --> 00:57:38.639
and rainbows. And for example, to put the blame

00:57:38.639 --> 00:57:41.260
on the IFF, we have people working in departments

00:57:41.260 --> 00:57:44.420
that work this shift that are not saying to the

00:57:44.420 --> 00:57:46.639
rest of the membership, we need to get you to

00:57:46.639 --> 00:57:49.059
where we are. So I think, you know, this is,

00:57:49.059 --> 00:57:51.739
these are all little pieces of this puzzle. Well,

00:57:51.800 --> 00:57:56.239
and again, I agree. Let's get rid of PFAS, but

00:57:56.239 --> 00:57:59.019
PFAS is the low hanging fruit. That's absolutely

00:57:59.019 --> 00:58:00.840
the low hanging fruit. That was an easy one.

00:58:01.159 --> 00:58:06.980
The fact that Diane Cotter came up with the research,

00:58:07.119 --> 00:58:11.219
did what she had to do, and made it a national

00:58:11.219 --> 00:58:15.800
issue is fantastic and should be highly applauded

00:58:15.800 --> 00:58:18.280
by the fire service and all of our families and

00:58:18.280 --> 00:58:20.380
everybody affected, right? And anybody that's

00:58:20.380 --> 00:58:22.760
drinking water anywhere where we've flowed foam

00:58:22.760 --> 00:58:26.940
over the years, for Christ's sake, right? It's

00:58:26.940 --> 00:58:28.619
the low -hanging fruit. There's so many other

00:58:28.619 --> 00:58:31.119
things that we need to attack with it. It's got

00:58:31.119 --> 00:58:34.719
to be multi -pronged. And going after DuPont

00:58:34.719 --> 00:58:37.659
or Dow or whoever it is, going after gear manufacturers,

00:58:38.119 --> 00:58:43.400
yeah, is it doable? Sure, it's doable, but it's

00:58:43.400 --> 00:58:47.460
not the answer. It's a small piece of the answer.

00:58:47.739 --> 00:58:50.760
So the other thing is we're the biggest freaking

00:58:50.760 --> 00:58:53.380
hypocrites in the world, and myself included,

00:58:53.619 --> 00:58:56.650
right? I was at FDIC and a bunch of guys said,

00:58:56.710 --> 00:59:00.190
hey, let's go to the cigar bar, right? Well,

00:59:00.409 --> 00:59:03.469
I don't smoke cigars. I get headaches from cigars.

00:59:03.489 --> 00:59:05.949
Not that I don't like them because I did when

00:59:05.949 --> 00:59:07.690
I was younger, but now it gives me a terrible

00:59:07.690 --> 00:59:10.750
headache and sinus problem. So I don't go. But

00:59:10.750 --> 00:59:13.630
I can walk by a cigar bar and see 50 firemen

00:59:13.630 --> 00:59:16.349
sitting there smoking away, right? Now you're

00:59:16.349 --> 00:59:18.130
going to tell me that that doesn't affect your

00:59:18.130 --> 00:59:21.929
health, right? I like really good tequila. So

00:59:21.929 --> 00:59:25.860
I will imbibe. Is that good for my health? No,

00:59:25.980 --> 00:59:28.760
of course it's not, right? And sometimes it's

00:59:28.760 --> 00:59:31.860
not in moderation over the years. So, you know

00:59:31.860 --> 00:59:33.880
what I mean? We're our worst enemies, and we're

00:59:33.880 --> 00:59:35.639
hypocrites about a lot of things. You know, oh,

00:59:35.679 --> 00:59:39.239
it's the PFAS. It's the PFAS. Yeah, right. That's

00:59:39.239 --> 00:59:41.980
what's doing it to you. Come on. It's beyond

00:59:41.980 --> 00:59:44.179
that. And we have to take responsibility for

00:59:44.179 --> 00:59:47.880
ourselves, and we don't always do that. And I've

00:59:47.880 --> 00:59:50.780
been a union member my whole life, but the union

00:59:50.780 --> 00:59:53.210
is good at grabbing low -hanging fruit. you know

00:59:53.210 --> 00:59:55.010
and not that they don't fight some really hard

00:59:55.010 --> 00:59:56.909
fights because we've been involved in that but

00:59:56.909 --> 01:00:01.329
it's it's time here we are right here we are

01:00:01.329 --> 01:00:04.929
and the the the good thing for us and good thing

01:00:04.929 --> 01:00:07.670
for this next generation of firefighters and

01:00:07.670 --> 01:00:10.409
the generations that are going to follow us is

01:00:10.409 --> 01:00:13.690
the research is there the science and the chemistry

01:00:13.690 --> 01:00:16.630
is there there's brilliant people like the folks

01:00:16.630 --> 01:00:20.550
like dr orman and dr stapleton and dr kessler

01:00:20.550 --> 01:00:23.090
who i listened to yesterday they are doing the

01:00:23.090 --> 01:00:26.409
work for us on our behalf and we don't have to

01:00:26.409 --> 01:00:28.630
pay them right the union doesn't have to pay

01:00:28.630 --> 01:00:30.269
them maybe the union would rather pay them so

01:00:30.269 --> 01:00:33.269
they can get the results they want but you know

01:00:33.269 --> 01:00:36.010
our taxpayers are doing that through fema through

01:00:36.010 --> 01:00:38.349
everybody else and obviously that's what researchers

01:00:38.349 --> 01:00:41.429
do they research to the point where, oh, shit,

01:00:41.469 --> 01:00:43.650
I need more research money to continue my career.

01:00:43.869 --> 01:00:46.929
But we need them, and they're working on our

01:00:46.929 --> 01:00:50.309
behalf. And I think they do it in the right way.

01:00:50.730 --> 01:00:55.409
But I think that down the road, the next generation

01:00:55.409 --> 01:00:58.070
of firemen are going to be much better suited

01:00:58.070 --> 01:00:59.690
for everything, and they're going to be well

01:00:59.690 --> 01:01:02.030
protected, at least better protected than you

01:01:02.030 --> 01:01:04.809
and I were because of all this. And because people

01:01:04.809 --> 01:01:07.570
like you are voicing their opinions, and old

01:01:07.570 --> 01:01:09.889
guys like me are still doing it. I mean, hell,

01:01:09.949 --> 01:01:13.110
years ago, Billy Goldfeder was probably the first

01:01:13.110 --> 01:01:16.610
guy in the fire service to really utilize social

01:01:16.610 --> 01:01:19.289
media and the Internet. When those of us were

01:01:19.289 --> 01:01:21.869
trying to figure out what AOL was, Billy had

01:01:21.869 --> 01:01:24.250
already mastered it and was putting out tons

01:01:24.250 --> 01:01:28.449
of information. Well, now the podcast world is

01:01:28.449 --> 01:01:31.909
they are guys like you, what you've done, guys

01:01:31.909 --> 01:01:34.070
like Jeremy Donch with National Fire Radio and

01:01:34.070 --> 01:01:37.130
some of the others. They are that next generation.

01:01:37.929 --> 01:01:40.150
We've pushed it to the next level. And I really

01:01:40.150 --> 01:01:43.090
believe that this next generation, my son's era

01:01:43.090 --> 01:01:45.710
and kids coming up through the job right now,

01:01:45.829 --> 01:01:48.449
they're going to take it to a whole nother level.

01:01:48.710 --> 01:01:52.630
I sure hope, you know, and I guess that transitions

01:01:52.630 --> 01:01:54.809
a little bit too, but we all, we all talk about,

01:01:54.809 --> 01:01:57.489
you know, this generation of kids and this or

01:01:57.489 --> 01:02:00.170
that. Well, I was that generation years ago and

01:02:00.170 --> 01:02:01.989
the old guys told me I was a piece of shit too.

01:02:02.349 --> 01:02:06.309
So it's, it's cyclical, but I really do believe.

01:02:06.800 --> 01:02:09.940
it can be better. Let me just go back real quick

01:02:09.940 --> 01:02:12.280
to the dorm thing and the culture of the firehouse.

01:02:12.679 --> 01:02:16.119
Yeah, please. I met a guy and honestly, God,

01:02:16.260 --> 01:02:18.159
I go to so many firehouses. I don't always recall

01:02:18.159 --> 01:02:20.059
where I met people at, but this gentleman was

01:02:20.059 --> 01:02:22.139
talking to me and we were talking about firehouses

01:02:22.139 --> 01:02:24.400
and they were building a new firehouse. And he

01:02:24.400 --> 01:02:25.880
said, you know what the problem with our firehouses

01:02:25.880 --> 01:02:29.099
are? They're way too big because we've lost every

01:02:29.099 --> 01:02:31.840
bit of family feeling. We're not with each other

01:02:31.840 --> 01:02:34.579
enough. Our company officers don't demand that

01:02:34.579 --> 01:02:37.610
we stay like you said. You know, hey, you can

01:02:37.610 --> 01:02:39.190
go in your bunk room when you're taking a nap.

01:02:39.309 --> 01:02:42.150
I'm totally cool with a nap for success. But

01:02:42.150 --> 01:02:43.429
when you're done with that, don't stay in the

01:02:43.429 --> 01:02:45.670
bunk room all day. Get out here on the floor.

01:02:45.909 --> 01:02:47.969
I'm a big proponent, and I know it's not the

01:02:47.969 --> 01:02:50.110
healthiest thing in the world, but I'm a big

01:02:50.110 --> 01:02:52.389
proponent of having that squad table at the back

01:02:52.389 --> 01:02:54.670
of the engine where the guys just sit and talk

01:02:54.670 --> 01:02:57.309
fire. Because when we did it in our firehouse,

01:02:57.369 --> 01:02:59.269
my chief hated it because he didn't like the

01:02:59.269 --> 01:03:00.829
look of it. It looked like we were just hanging

01:03:00.829 --> 01:03:04.699
out. But, man. More fire stories got told, more

01:03:04.699 --> 01:03:07.739
training, informal training, more informal critiques.

01:03:08.400 --> 01:03:11.139
When you're looking at fire stuff, you tend to

01:03:11.139 --> 01:03:14.579
look and do fire stuff as opposed to when you're

01:03:14.579 --> 01:03:17.219
in the TV room watching, you know, whatever you're

01:03:17.219 --> 01:03:19.800
watching. We're playing these guys like Call

01:03:19.800 --> 01:03:21.659
of Duty in the middle of the night, like you

01:03:21.659 --> 01:03:25.880
got to be shitting, you know. So that's my rant

01:03:25.880 --> 01:03:28.360
on that. But I really do believe when a guy said

01:03:28.360 --> 01:03:31.340
firehouses are being built so big. Look at the

01:03:31.340 --> 01:03:32.960
money they could save if we tightened up the

01:03:32.960 --> 01:03:34.800
firehouse and brought the crews together a little

01:03:34.800 --> 01:03:37.699
bit more. And he's right. He's not wrong. I never

01:03:37.699 --> 01:03:40.579
thought of it until he said that. When I think

01:03:40.579 --> 01:03:43.280
about, again, I always go back to Anaheim just

01:03:43.280 --> 01:03:46.159
because it's the most cohesive tight knit as

01:03:46.159 --> 01:03:48.360
a whole department that I work for. You know,

01:03:48.380 --> 01:03:50.519
we were constantly obviously running calls. I

01:03:50.519 --> 01:03:52.519
mean, I've never worked in a department that

01:03:52.519 --> 01:03:55.219
wasn't extremely busy. But if you're not, then

01:03:55.219 --> 01:03:57.460
you got your workouts, which, you know, certainly

01:03:57.460 --> 01:04:00.219
in Anaheim. That was a culture everyone worked

01:04:00.219 --> 01:04:02.420
out in Orange County. And ultimately, the last

01:04:02.420 --> 01:04:05.440
place I worked, I was able to develop that within

01:04:05.440 --> 01:04:07.400
the station, at least, where we'd all do workouts

01:04:07.400 --> 01:04:09.500
together. Then you've got training together.

01:04:09.760 --> 01:04:12.119
Then you cook in. I mean, again, Anaheim, you

01:04:12.119 --> 01:04:13.619
know, we cooked all the time. We ate together

01:04:13.619 --> 01:04:17.480
as a crew. Now you've got UFC or I think it was

01:04:17.480 --> 01:04:18.880
Dexter. We'd watch together. You know what I

01:04:18.880 --> 01:04:20.639
mean? So now you've created all these things

01:04:20.639 --> 01:04:23.590
where we are together. Then, you know, I'm going

01:04:23.590 --> 01:04:25.949
to go Skype the wife or whatever it is that you're

01:04:25.949 --> 01:04:28.070
doing. Of course. Then you go into your private

01:04:28.070 --> 01:04:30.070
space. I think that's phenomenal. And like I

01:04:30.070 --> 01:04:32.889
said, the deeper sleep that you're going to get,

01:04:32.929 --> 01:04:35.250
you know, when you're in an individual dorm and

01:04:35.250 --> 01:04:36.989
you're not being woken up for everyone else's

01:04:36.989 --> 01:04:41.010
calls is essential. But those communal spaces,

01:04:41.150 --> 01:04:42.570
you know, and that's a culture that's, again,

01:04:42.590 --> 01:04:44.909
driven by the officers, senior firefighters,

01:04:45.010 --> 01:04:48.750
you know, whatever that dynamic is. But I agree,

01:04:48.829 --> 01:04:52.030
you know, they do become so vast. You know, is

01:04:52.030 --> 01:04:55.030
there a way of, you know, either, as you said,

01:04:55.090 --> 01:04:57.829
just do we need them as big as that? And or,

01:04:57.989 --> 01:04:59.710
you know, maybe we invest a little bit more in

01:04:59.710 --> 01:05:01.849
those communal areas, you know, like pickleball

01:05:01.849 --> 01:05:03.949
is huge now, you know, over the line we used

01:05:03.949 --> 01:05:05.690
to play. I mean, all these volleyball in the

01:05:05.690 --> 01:05:07.730
back, back apron, you know, basketball, which

01:05:07.730 --> 01:05:10.090
one that was always shut down because someone

01:05:10.090 --> 01:05:11.510
rolled an ankle. It's like, yeah, but you're

01:05:11.510 --> 01:05:14.250
missing all the. cardiovascular benefits of everyone

01:05:14.250 --> 01:05:17.010
that's playing yeah so i think you can really

01:05:17.010 --> 01:05:20.170
nurture that other stuff and put it back in and

01:05:20.170 --> 01:05:22.269
we'll kind of this is a good transition now you

01:05:22.269 --> 01:05:24.309
know we were hit talking before we hit record

01:05:24.309 --> 01:05:28.210
you know this kids today they don't want to work

01:05:28.210 --> 01:05:30.710
they just want to be youtubers and i've said

01:05:30.710 --> 01:05:33.710
this many times if you actually look at the you

01:05:33.710 --> 01:05:35.769
know the the things that are being talked about

01:05:35.769 --> 01:05:39.619
as far as gen z The Wall Street Journal published

01:05:39.619 --> 01:05:41.659
an article saying that they are going into the

01:05:41.659 --> 01:05:44.639
trades more than ever. And what's happening is

01:05:44.639 --> 01:05:46.219
the same reason that they're not choosing the

01:05:46.219 --> 01:05:48.059
fire service, because you can do a Google search

01:05:48.059 --> 01:05:51.239
now. Is it healthy to be a firefighter? And it's

01:05:51.239 --> 01:05:54.039
terrifying, everything that comes up. And then

01:05:54.039 --> 01:05:56.320
you can do a Google search. Is it worth getting

01:05:56.320 --> 01:06:00.500
a degree? $60 ,000 in debt, piece of paper, doesn't

01:06:00.500 --> 01:06:02.619
guarantee you a job. These young, intelligent

01:06:02.619 --> 01:06:04.820
people are going, that sounds a bit shit too.

01:06:05.119 --> 01:06:08.530
Let me go be a welder. So we have this group

01:06:08.530 --> 01:06:11.010
of people that want to do hands -on tradesman

01:06:11.010 --> 01:06:13.849
training, but they're looking at our profession,

01:06:13.969 --> 01:06:16.949
at the things that we've discussed, all the poor

01:06:16.949 --> 01:06:19.449
wages, the recruitment crisis that's forged,

01:06:19.530 --> 01:06:22.050
all this overtime. Now you've got cancers and

01:06:22.050 --> 01:06:24.510
suicides and divorces and all the things. Yes,

01:06:24.510 --> 01:06:26.750
it's a dark side. It doesn't negate what an amazing

01:06:26.750 --> 01:06:29.610
job we have, but it's just as important to discuss.

01:06:30.070 --> 01:06:32.940
These young people... They're in touch with their

01:06:32.940 --> 01:06:37.179
physical health, their mental health, their relationships.

01:06:37.820 --> 01:06:41.139
And so when we fix it, like Pasco County, the

01:06:41.139 --> 01:06:43.199
phone is ringing off the hook in the HR department

01:06:43.199 --> 01:06:46.619
again. But until we do, we're dissuading kids.

01:06:46.719 --> 01:06:48.800
And then we're saying, oh, the recruitment crisis

01:06:48.800 --> 01:06:51.800
is because kids don't want to work. I call bullshit.

01:06:51.920 --> 01:06:54.780
You call bullshit on that. So you obviously got

01:06:54.780 --> 01:06:57.219
a much better lens on the fire service, on the

01:06:57.219 --> 01:07:00.440
training side. Talk to me about that kind of.

01:07:00.909 --> 01:07:03.570
two -dimensional view of our young people today,

01:07:03.889 --> 01:07:06.329
and what are you actually seeing as far as the

01:07:06.329 --> 01:07:09.269
passion of these new recruits that you're working

01:07:09.269 --> 01:07:13.269
with? It is different. It's absolutely different,

01:07:13.409 --> 01:07:16.030
and I don't think it's different in a bad way.

01:07:17.170 --> 01:07:19.309
I don't teach at as many conferences as some

01:07:19.309 --> 01:07:21.369
of these guys do, but we do a lot of conferences,

01:07:21.469 --> 01:07:24.889
and we do a lot of individual departmental training

01:07:24.889 --> 01:07:29.550
with our company. I'm seeing a lot of young firemen

01:07:29.550 --> 01:07:31.050
come to these conferences. And they're coming

01:07:31.050 --> 01:07:35.369
on their own dime, right? And I'm seeing an influx

01:07:35.369 --> 01:07:38.690
of women in the fire service, not all younger

01:07:38.690 --> 01:07:41.010
women either, not just, you know, 20 -year -olds,

01:07:41.090 --> 01:07:44.610
but women who are in their late 20s, early 30s,

01:07:44.610 --> 01:07:47.570
you know, mid -30s, even in the volunteers starting

01:07:47.570 --> 01:07:51.630
to see that influx. And certainly, you're seeing

01:07:51.630 --> 01:07:53.829
more diverse groups. You're seeing more minorities

01:07:53.829 --> 01:07:57.710
and so forth. Is that why that is? I couldn't

01:07:57.710 --> 01:08:00.030
tell you, and I'm not. there to study it but

01:08:00.030 --> 01:08:03.550
i can tell you that i'm finding these folks want

01:08:03.550 --> 01:08:06.409
to learn if they're going to a conference on

01:08:06.409 --> 01:08:08.750
their own i don't need to talk to them about

01:08:08.750 --> 01:08:10.829
why you should love this job and why you should

01:08:10.829 --> 01:08:13.369
be a fireman and all this other nonsense you're

01:08:13.369 --> 01:08:16.210
already freaking there somebody already preached

01:08:16.210 --> 01:08:19.250
to them and now they're the choir right i don't

01:08:19.250 --> 01:08:20.930
need to preach to the choir i need to teach them

01:08:20.930 --> 01:08:23.710
skills right i know it's the old fbny saying

01:08:23.710 --> 01:08:25.470
is the two things you can't teach somebody is

01:08:25.470 --> 01:08:29.010
heart and balls Well, it doesn't matter where

01:08:29.010 --> 01:08:30.829
the balls are, right? If it's a girl or a guy,

01:08:30.890 --> 01:08:35.369
I don't care. Whatever the case may be, if you've

01:08:35.369 --> 01:08:37.529
got the heart and you've got the desire to do

01:08:37.529 --> 01:08:40.109
it, we can give you the skills if you're willing

01:08:40.109 --> 01:08:42.489
to learn the skills. And I believe that they

01:08:42.489 --> 01:08:45.390
are willing to learn the skills. The ones I'm

01:08:45.390 --> 01:08:48.750
seeing show up, obviously, they are the one percenters,

01:08:48.750 --> 01:08:51.609
right? They're coming. They want this. Or somebody

01:08:51.609 --> 01:08:54.069
has told them, you need to do this. Come with

01:08:54.069 --> 01:08:56.659
me. And their buddy grabbed him by the hand and

01:08:56.659 --> 01:08:59.880
said, hey, let's share a room. Let's share a

01:08:59.880 --> 01:09:02.619
ride up to Long Island for the Joey D. Or let's,

01:09:02.619 --> 01:09:05.500
you know, go down to, you know, wherever in Florida

01:09:05.500 --> 01:09:08.899
for Orlando Fire Conference or TC Hot or the

01:09:08.899 --> 01:09:10.739
Fools trainings that are all over the country

01:09:10.739 --> 01:09:13.380
now up in New England. Rusty Ricker does a tremendous

01:09:13.380 --> 01:09:16.479
job with all the training up there. So what I'm

01:09:16.479 --> 01:09:19.479
seeing is guys who want to do this and they're

01:09:19.479 --> 01:09:22.550
building their own. identities and they're building

01:09:22.550 --> 01:09:25.489
their own departmental cultures through training

01:09:25.489 --> 01:09:28.109
with each other and they're energetic and they

01:09:28.109 --> 01:09:31.050
want to do it they just need the right people

01:09:31.050 --> 01:09:34.770
to lead them to it right they're not dumb by

01:09:34.770 --> 01:09:36.609
any means they're probably smarter than we were

01:09:36.609 --> 01:09:39.229
they may not have the street smarts that we had

01:09:39.229 --> 01:09:41.869
but they've they've they're intelligent they

01:09:41.869 --> 01:09:44.970
understand processes and things of that nature

01:09:44.970 --> 01:09:48.170
way more than i ever did as a kid way more um

01:09:48.170 --> 01:09:52.960
and they're into it they're energetic the the

01:09:52.960 --> 01:09:57.680
biggest negative i see is a lot of false prophets

01:09:57.680 --> 01:10:01.460
right and and people who have great influence

01:10:01.460 --> 01:10:03.739
in the fire service because of their outstanding

01:10:03.739 --> 01:10:07.079
social media skills and because they can get

01:10:07.079 --> 01:10:09.600
on a table and pound their fist and hoot and

01:10:09.600 --> 01:10:11.819
holler and tell everybody this is how it should

01:10:11.819 --> 01:10:14.439
be and and you know they're going to will you

01:10:14.439 --> 01:10:17.750
to what it's going to be and in the end You see

01:10:17.750 --> 01:10:19.949
a lot of chest beating. You see a lot of egos.

01:10:19.949 --> 01:10:22.550
You see a lot of narcissism. And you see a lot

01:10:22.550 --> 01:10:25.109
of bullshit trying to make themselves something

01:10:25.109 --> 01:10:28.529
they're not or trying to pull in a ton of money.

01:10:28.829 --> 01:10:31.609
I mean, I don't want to see a guy who's living

01:10:31.609 --> 01:10:34.609
in a million -dollar house telling me, I really

01:10:34.609 --> 01:10:37.550
need you at my conference because you need this.

01:10:38.210 --> 01:10:40.449
Bullshit. Your conference is probably overpriced

01:10:40.449 --> 01:10:42.250
and you're putting your kids through college

01:10:42.250 --> 01:10:46.810
on me. I get it. I want those. salt of the earth

01:10:46.810 --> 01:10:49.010
instructors who want to work with people who

01:10:49.010 --> 01:10:51.630
want to get them better who are willing to sit

01:10:51.630 --> 01:10:53.750
down and you'll see this at conferences i watch

01:10:53.750 --> 01:10:57.350
this i went to i teach it for the joey d every

01:10:57.350 --> 01:11:00.149
year right my on scene does and myself anything

01:11:00.149 --> 01:11:02.449
we can do we try to help sponsor that for those

01:11:02.449 --> 01:11:04.550
who don't know lieutenant joey d bernardo memorial

01:11:04.550 --> 01:11:08.369
foundation truly one of the greatest groups of

01:11:08.369 --> 01:11:11.210
people i've ever been a part of chief d does

01:11:11.210 --> 01:11:15.100
a great job with it in joey's honor but I've

01:11:15.100 --> 01:11:18.720
watched and seen some of the people who I look

01:11:18.720 --> 01:11:21.560
up to in the fire service, whether it's Mike

01:11:21.560 --> 01:11:25.079
Dugan from retired from FDNY or it's Mike Champo

01:11:25.079 --> 01:11:30.220
or it's Mo Davis or Clyde Gordon or those guys

01:11:30.220 --> 01:11:33.880
from Houston. Another guy that's fabulous. And

01:11:33.880 --> 01:11:36.319
I watch him teach and I watch him talk to young

01:11:36.319 --> 01:11:39.720
guys, whether it's in the bar or somewhere on

01:11:39.720 --> 01:11:42.550
the drill ground. There's a guy named Larry DiCamillo.

01:11:42.710 --> 01:11:45.170
He's a truck guy. He's a retired Houston guy.

01:11:45.329 --> 01:11:48.909
Now he's a chief in Texas. And I watch them interact,

01:11:49.189 --> 01:11:52.829
and it's humble, and it's giving the firefighters

01:11:52.829 --> 01:11:56.430
what they need. And, man, most of these kids,

01:11:56.569 --> 01:11:59.350
they don't understand the greatness of who they're

01:11:59.350 --> 01:12:02.050
in the presence of. And not to blow all my buddies'

01:12:02.189 --> 01:12:06.550
egos up any bigger than they are, but I stand

01:12:06.550 --> 01:12:08.810
there in awe sometimes and listen to these things

01:12:08.810 --> 01:12:11.489
myself. And I'm like, shit, am I learning a lot

01:12:11.489 --> 01:12:17.050
just standing here in the bar, right? And we

01:12:17.050 --> 01:12:19.970
have so much more options and so many more opportunities

01:12:19.970 --> 01:12:23.550
to deliver this to this next generation than

01:12:23.550 --> 01:12:26.069
anybody did to us. Because when you and I were

01:12:26.069 --> 01:12:28.649
young, we read Fire Engineering or Firehouse

01:12:28.649 --> 01:12:31.529
Magazine, right? We didn't have all the online

01:12:31.529 --> 01:12:34.810
information. It was just beginning. There were

01:12:34.810 --> 01:12:37.090
only a few conferences here or there. And really,

01:12:37.210 --> 01:12:39.300
I didn't even know about them. chiefs went to

01:12:39.300 --> 01:12:40.979
that ship i didn't know the firemen could go

01:12:40.979 --> 01:12:44.220
to that you know now it's just it's all there

01:12:44.220 --> 01:12:48.520
but we've got to vet it down we've got to you

01:12:48.520 --> 01:12:50.220
know i'm not going to send a guy from new egypt

01:12:50.220 --> 01:12:53.579
to the high -rise conference that guys do because

01:12:53.579 --> 01:12:56.180
the the they have nothing over three stories

01:12:56.180 --> 01:12:59.680
other than a silo right so but should i send

01:12:59.680 --> 01:13:02.479
them to a silo rescue class yeah probably right

01:13:02.479 --> 01:13:05.260
so we have to vet out what we're doing who we're

01:13:05.260 --> 01:13:09.090
doing it with and and you know Give them what's

01:13:09.090 --> 01:13:12.229
pertinent. But they're learners, and we can learn

01:13:12.229 --> 01:13:16.430
a ton from them. I look at that just like kind

01:13:16.430 --> 01:13:18.970
of my kids' friends. Some of the kids he hangs

01:13:18.970 --> 01:13:21.189
out, not kids, they're all young men now. They're

01:13:21.189 --> 01:13:24.369
all in their mid -20s or so. But like some of

01:13:24.369 --> 01:13:26.710
the guys in Thibodeau is a good example. We go

01:13:26.710 --> 01:13:28.430
down there, and we're training them in fire stuff.

01:13:28.890 --> 01:13:31.729
One of the guys, he just got on a job next door

01:13:31.729 --> 01:13:36.670
to there, and he was studying to be a pilot and

01:13:36.670 --> 01:13:39.539
then had some. something came up and they told

01:13:39.539 --> 01:13:41.979
him that physically he wasn't able to do it so

01:13:41.979 --> 01:13:44.520
he went to hvac school got his hvac certification

01:13:44.520 --> 01:13:47.100
instead of going to college and now he's on a

01:13:47.100 --> 01:13:50.340
job can that guy provide a lot to the fire service

01:13:50.340 --> 01:13:53.699
and does he have the ability hell yeah you know

01:13:53.699 --> 01:13:56.800
um one of the other kids works for the diocese

01:13:56.800 --> 01:13:59.520
and is is kind of their i .t specialist i think

01:13:59.520 --> 01:14:03.340
down there well man what fire department can't

01:14:03.340 --> 01:14:06.710
use a great i .t guy Who, by the way, is in great

01:14:06.710 --> 01:14:10.930
physical shape, is a great person, hardcore fireman,

01:14:11.029 --> 01:14:13.350
great at training. And I've watched him stretch

01:14:13.350 --> 01:14:15.930
into buildings and does a hell of a job. These

01:14:15.930 --> 01:14:18.369
are the people that we want. We want to recruit

01:14:18.369 --> 01:14:20.909
them, bring them in, bring them into the fold,

01:14:21.170 --> 01:14:24.270
nurture them. You know, don't pussyfoot around

01:14:24.270 --> 01:14:27.090
them, make them work, but nurture them. And they

01:14:27.090 --> 01:14:31.789
are us 20 years from now. I can't hold it to

01:14:31.789 --> 01:14:33.890
my vest. I can't take it to my grave with me.

01:14:33.909 --> 01:14:37.050
What the hell good would that do? So, you know,

01:14:37.149 --> 01:14:41.890
it frustrates the shit out of me at times watching

01:14:41.890 --> 01:14:45.510
some of this. But they're not bad. This next

01:14:45.510 --> 01:14:48.949
generation will be just fine in my eyes. It's

01:14:48.949 --> 01:14:51.850
funny you use the example. I remember going to

01:14:51.850 --> 01:14:53.529
the Orlando Fire Conference a few years ago,

01:14:53.590 --> 01:14:56.529
and it was exactly that. I think it felt like

01:14:56.529 --> 01:14:58.409
about three years, but I think it was a 60 or

01:14:58.409 --> 01:15:01.829
90 minute. presentation, but it was chest thumping,

01:15:01.909 --> 01:15:04.390
got to be into the job. And I remember looking

01:15:04.390 --> 01:15:07.050
around going, we're at the Orlando Fire Conference.

01:15:07.310 --> 01:15:10.310
For the love of God, everyone in here is into

01:15:10.310 --> 01:15:12.930
the job or is trying to be into the job. And

01:15:12.930 --> 01:15:15.090
that was the takeaway, be into the job, period.

01:15:15.670 --> 01:15:19.890
And this is the problem that you see. And I think

01:15:19.890 --> 01:15:22.810
this is what's really exciting. I've had a lot

01:15:22.810 --> 01:15:26.130
of people say to me, The fit recruits that we

01:15:26.130 --> 01:15:28.949
are getting now are in really great shape because

01:15:28.949 --> 01:15:31.109
when you came on, which is way before I did,

01:15:31.210 --> 01:15:35.210
I only ever had 14 years, you know, there wasn't

01:15:35.210 --> 01:15:38.189
CrossFit and mud runs and, you know, mobility

01:15:38.189 --> 01:15:41.510
and foam rolling and meditation and breath work

01:15:41.510 --> 01:15:44.189
and none of that. And then when I came in still

01:15:44.189 --> 01:15:47.310
only, you know, 22 years ago. Still wasn't that

01:15:47.310 --> 01:15:49.090
conversation ready. It was still the tail end

01:15:49.090 --> 01:15:51.810
of the bodybuilding. I discovered CrossFit at

01:15:51.810 --> 01:15:56.890
Anaheim, one of my truck partners, and that revolutionized

01:15:56.890 --> 01:15:59.399
everything. Well, now this young group. has been

01:15:59.399 --> 01:16:01.699
brought up with all of that stuff. You know,

01:16:01.699 --> 01:16:04.159
everything from Wim Hof and meditation through

01:16:04.159 --> 01:16:06.739
the really well -designed strength conditioning

01:16:06.739 --> 01:16:09.840
programs and the ability to test themselves in

01:16:09.840 --> 01:16:12.720
endurance events. And they're coming in now with

01:16:12.720 --> 01:16:15.460
that skill set. So those people exist. I watched

01:16:15.460 --> 01:16:17.960
my son's cross -country team, his track team,

01:16:18.159 --> 01:16:22.140
JROTC, some phenomenal young men and women that

01:16:22.140 --> 01:16:24.399
are going through the Marion County public school

01:16:24.399 --> 01:16:27.420
system here. That would be, and hopefully some

01:16:27.420 --> 01:16:30.810
of them are, phenomenal firefighters so they

01:16:30.810 --> 01:16:33.130
exist and yes do we need to make that portion

01:16:33.130 --> 01:16:35.850
larger by addressing the national obesity epidemic

01:16:35.850 --> 01:16:37.529
and the mental health crisis and all these other

01:16:37.529 --> 01:16:39.770
things of course that's another piece of the

01:16:39.770 --> 01:16:43.149
puzzle but the other part extreme ownership everyone

01:16:43.149 --> 01:16:46.010
seems to love jocko's book is what are we doing

01:16:46.010 --> 01:16:50.050
to attract that group of people that is going

01:16:50.050 --> 01:16:53.609
into nursing, welding, whatever other professions,

01:16:53.810 --> 01:16:56.029
because they're looking at us and going, I've

01:16:56.029 --> 01:16:57.630
always wanted to be a firefighter, but I didn't

01:16:57.630 --> 01:16:59.310
realize that they didn't take care of their people.

01:16:59.649 --> 01:17:01.649
Because that's it. That's the bottom line. If

01:17:01.649 --> 01:17:04.350
you're working 56 hours a week and doing nothing

01:17:04.350 --> 01:17:07.130
about the recruitment crisis and retention, and

01:17:07.130 --> 01:17:09.550
now you're forcing men and women to work 80 hours

01:17:09.550 --> 01:17:12.170
and call their loved ones at 7 .30 in the morning

01:17:12.170 --> 01:17:14.409
and say, I know I told you I was going to go

01:17:14.409 --> 01:17:16.189
to the Donuts for Dads, but I can't come home

01:17:16.189 --> 01:17:19.189
now. That sucks. then you have fucking failed

01:17:19.189 --> 01:17:22.430
us. So if we want to attract the right kind of

01:17:22.430 --> 01:17:24.449
people and put that bar where it needs to be,

01:17:24.489 --> 01:17:27.069
which is high because jobs, you know, lives depend

01:17:27.069 --> 01:17:30.140
on, on our ability to do our job. Then we have

01:17:30.140 --> 01:17:32.960
to address the things that are broken. So I think

01:17:32.960 --> 01:17:36.159
100 % these people exist. And I think that the

01:17:36.159 --> 01:17:38.439
next group of firefighters are going to be even

01:17:38.439 --> 01:17:40.840
better than us. That's the whole point of a parent

01:17:40.840 --> 01:17:44.140
or a coach is to groom the next generation to

01:17:44.140 --> 01:17:46.500
learn from your mistakes and be even better and

01:17:46.500 --> 01:17:49.079
look back at us and go, what the fuck were they

01:17:49.079 --> 01:17:52.640
thinking 20 years ago? But the only way we're

01:17:52.640 --> 01:17:55.239
going to do that is to have the humility to say

01:17:55.239 --> 01:17:58.020
some of the things that we're doing are broken.

01:17:58.720 --> 01:18:01.399
Who is doing it right? Can you tell me how you

01:18:01.399 --> 01:18:05.260
did it? The rising tide lifts all ships. I totally

01:18:05.260 --> 01:18:07.920
agree. You know, we don't want to be dinosaurs

01:18:07.920 --> 01:18:11.579
leaving dinosaur eggs, right? And unfortunately,

01:18:11.779 --> 01:18:13.560
that's happened over the generations. And it

01:18:13.560 --> 01:18:15.600
always will. Those folks will always be there.

01:18:15.760 --> 01:18:18.319
But we need to negate those people. We need to

01:18:18.319 --> 01:18:21.960
be the positive influence that pushes them to

01:18:21.960 --> 01:18:27.000
the side. And I agree with you. What I've seen

01:18:27.000 --> 01:18:31.210
with... today's generation, and maybe right before

01:18:31.210 --> 01:18:35.590
this, they don't necessarily feel that you're

01:18:35.590 --> 01:18:37.770
dedicated. If you're not going to be dedicated

01:18:37.770 --> 01:18:39.649
to them, they are not going to show any dedication

01:18:39.649 --> 01:18:42.529
to you, which I don't blame them. But when we

01:18:42.529 --> 01:18:44.149
were raised, it was different. I knew when I

01:18:44.149 --> 01:18:45.909
came on the job, I'm spending my whole career

01:18:45.909 --> 01:18:48.470
here. Unless I go to a bigger city and I can

01:18:48.470 --> 01:18:51.069
really upgrade things, this is where I'm going

01:18:51.069 --> 01:18:53.430
to be, right? And a few years into it, I knew

01:18:53.430 --> 01:18:56.960
this was the rest of my career. This group. this

01:18:56.960 --> 01:18:59.380
this group that are in their 20s now that we're

01:18:59.380 --> 01:19:02.060
attracting and trying to bring in that loyalty

01:19:02.060 --> 01:19:05.420
doesn't necessarily exist right and and i see

01:19:05.420 --> 01:19:08.000
it with my with my son i see it with my stepson

01:19:08.000 --> 01:19:10.640
he's been through my stepson has been through

01:19:10.640 --> 01:19:13.079
i think he's on like his third job in about four

01:19:13.079 --> 01:19:16.899
years he's improved his lot in life drastically

01:19:16.899 --> 01:19:21.100
by doing that and he had the balls to do it when

01:19:21.100 --> 01:19:22.880
i was his age i wouldn't have had the balls to

01:19:22.880 --> 01:19:25.619
do it and i i say that all the time like I'm

01:19:25.619 --> 01:19:27.880
really proud of him because he had the balls

01:19:27.880 --> 01:19:30.340
to step out of his comfort zone and go to the

01:19:30.340 --> 01:19:33.659
next level and get for his family and what he's

01:19:33.659 --> 01:19:36.939
trying to build. And had they treated him like

01:19:36.939 --> 01:19:40.020
gold, would he have stayed and thought twice

01:19:40.020 --> 01:19:43.800
about it? I think so, right? Where my son plays

01:19:43.800 --> 01:19:49.140
into it, he started in one department. They preach

01:19:49.140 --> 01:19:51.439
a culture. They do things their way. He definitely

01:19:51.439 --> 01:19:54.479
did not fit in there. It wasn't his thing. Things

01:19:54.479 --> 01:19:59.520
went. Really south, really fast. And he luckily

01:19:59.520 --> 01:20:03.560
went to another department quickly, because honestly,

01:20:03.760 --> 01:20:05.479
I don't know that his mental health was going

01:20:05.479 --> 01:20:10.020
to hold up much more. He was in a bad spot. And

01:20:10.020 --> 01:20:13.199
that place really helped build him back up. And

01:20:13.199 --> 01:20:16.199
I look at that chief and I thank him. But he

01:20:16.199 --> 01:20:18.880
knew that the kid didn't want to be there. It

01:20:18.880 --> 01:20:22.140
was a smaller, more rural county style department.

01:20:22.619 --> 01:20:25.930
And he wanted big city. And eventually he moved

01:20:25.930 --> 01:20:29.590
to a bigger city down in Louisiana. But he told

01:20:29.590 --> 01:20:32.310
me, I've got one move left in me. I want one

01:20:32.310 --> 01:20:34.550
more place, and this is where I want to be, and

01:20:34.550 --> 01:20:37.489
this is what I'm working for. And he did it.

01:20:37.510 --> 01:20:40.250
I give him all the credit in the world, and he's

01:20:40.250 --> 01:20:43.550
working for a very good fire department in Louisiana

01:20:43.550 --> 01:20:45.750
right now, in my opinion. And he told me, that

01:20:45.750 --> 01:20:47.449
is the last step. This is where I'm going to

01:20:47.449 --> 01:20:51.649
be. Couldn't be happier, right? They are treating

01:20:51.649 --> 01:20:54.420
their employees well, from what I can see. their

01:20:54.420 --> 01:20:56.500
members are treated not necessarily like employees

01:20:56.500 --> 01:20:59.760
but like a good like firemen and with with some

01:20:59.760 --> 01:21:01.699
integrity and i'm sure they have their problems

01:21:01.699 --> 01:21:04.939
but they seem to be treat treating people the

01:21:04.939 --> 01:21:07.260
right way they promote training they promote

01:21:07.260 --> 01:21:09.819
you know the brotherhood and sisterhood and they're

01:21:09.819 --> 01:21:12.260
doing it right he doesn't want to leave there

01:21:12.260 --> 01:21:14.779
that's where he wants to he bought a house down

01:21:14.779 --> 01:21:16.739
there he's setting up roots man that's it right

01:21:16.739 --> 01:21:21.319
they have so many opportunities in the world

01:21:21.319 --> 01:21:24.520
today That if why would they stay with a shitty

01:21:24.520 --> 01:21:27.699
organization? And now, like you said, once the

01:21:27.699 --> 01:21:30.140
ball starts rolling in Florida, now Florida is

01:21:30.140 --> 01:21:33.380
tough because folks like from up here have to

01:21:33.380 --> 01:21:36.220
start completely fresh going to Florida. Right.

01:21:36.300 --> 01:21:38.560
So my none of my certs transfer, I would have

01:21:38.560 --> 01:21:41.439
had to start all over again. And even if I was

01:21:41.439 --> 01:21:44.300
in my 20s, I may not want to do that again. But

01:21:44.300 --> 01:21:47.060
a place in South Carolina, North Carolina, a

01:21:47.060 --> 01:21:50.399
place in Ohio that they say. Yep, we're going

01:21:50.399 --> 01:21:53.239
to go to 24 -72s. We're going to provide this

01:21:53.239 --> 01:21:56.539
level of financial assistance. We're going to

01:21:56.539 --> 01:21:59.279
provide maybe college education for you or something

01:21:59.279 --> 01:22:02.020
like that. Well, you're not going to have a recruiting

01:22:02.020 --> 01:22:04.819
lapse at all because everybody's going to start

01:22:04.819 --> 01:22:06.760
pulling out of these other shittier departments

01:22:06.760 --> 01:22:10.279
and say, yeah, I'm going to go where I'm wanted.

01:22:10.779 --> 01:22:14.180
Just like what are the hospitals that do that

01:22:14.180 --> 01:22:18.460
to get nurses, right? Same thing. You offer them

01:22:18.460 --> 01:22:21.079
the right things and you treat them well. You

01:22:21.079 --> 01:22:24.560
create that good culture. Why wouldn't they come

01:22:24.560 --> 01:22:27.779
to you? And you're right. The people who are

01:22:27.779 --> 01:22:30.300
sitting on the back of the wagon right now thinking,

01:22:30.359 --> 01:22:33.220
ah, it's going to be okay. We don't have to change.

01:22:33.420 --> 01:22:35.000
We're the fire department. People are coming

01:22:35.000 --> 01:22:37.859
to us because they want to be firemen. That was

01:22:37.859 --> 01:22:41.380
1988, man. That ain't today. That's not today.

01:22:41.560 --> 01:22:43.539
And if you're not thinking like the person who

01:22:43.539 --> 01:22:45.840
is on the reins of the horse pulling the wagon.

01:22:46.329 --> 01:22:50.369
who is really setting that course, you're beat.

01:22:51.029 --> 01:22:52.789
You're beat. They're all going to that front

01:22:52.789 --> 01:22:53.989
of the wagon. They ain't going to stay in the

01:22:53.989 --> 01:22:58.130
back with you. If that makes sense. No, it does.

01:22:58.409 --> 01:23:01.210
Actually, I want to give a shout out. I wish

01:23:01.210 --> 01:23:02.529
I could remember the name of the department now,

01:23:02.569 --> 01:23:05.289
but I was talking to a firefighter from North

01:23:05.289 --> 01:23:08.649
Carolina and they were transitioning from, I

01:23:08.649 --> 01:23:11.850
think it was volunteer and paid on call, if I've

01:23:11.850 --> 01:23:14.189
got that right, or volunteer and part -time to

01:23:14.189 --> 01:23:16.510
full -time. And I think they still have, you

01:23:16.510 --> 01:23:18.689
know, volunteer element. And he said to me, you

01:23:18.689 --> 01:23:20.810
know, we're thinking of, you know, maybe changing

01:23:20.810 --> 01:23:22.729
to a different work week and maybe Kelly's first.

01:23:22.890 --> 01:23:24.850
And I was like, look, if you want to do it properly

01:23:24.850 --> 01:23:28.750
the first time, do a 24 -72. And everyone that's

01:23:28.750 --> 01:23:30.270
come to me with all these different schedules,

01:23:30.329 --> 01:23:33.289
that still ends up being the gold standard because

01:23:33.289 --> 01:23:36.109
for every 24 hours, which is pushing it for a

01:23:36.109 --> 01:23:39.829
human being. you need at least 72 hours to recover

01:23:39.829 --> 01:23:42.149
from that. So if you start messing around with

01:23:42.149 --> 01:23:44.930
different versions of that, it's not as good.

01:23:45.010 --> 01:23:46.970
And certainly if you do 24 -48 with Kelly's,

01:23:46.970 --> 01:23:50.609
you're way behind now. And he took it and he

01:23:50.609 --> 01:23:52.729
ran with it. And the other day I got a message

01:23:52.729 --> 01:23:55.930
saying, that's it, we're going 24 -72. And I've

01:23:55.930 --> 01:23:58.270
got so much admiration for saying, we're going

01:23:58.270 --> 01:24:00.010
to do it right the first time. I've got another

01:24:00.010 --> 01:24:02.590
friend of mine, same exact position, didn't do

01:24:02.590 --> 01:24:06.939
that, 48 -96. And I facepalmed. But it is what

01:24:06.939 --> 01:24:11.520
it is. But yeah, I mean, that kind of, you know,

01:24:11.520 --> 01:24:14.359
understanding the value. And then the big thing

01:24:14.359 --> 01:24:16.600
for me is the bar. If you want to have this conversation

01:24:16.600 --> 01:24:19.500
about 24 -72, it's incredible because then you

01:24:19.500 --> 01:24:22.600
get to have the conversation about fitness standards,

01:24:22.979 --> 01:24:25.340
annual fitness assessments. Because if we're

01:24:25.340 --> 01:24:28.399
talking about health, go ask an ocean lifeguard

01:24:28.399 --> 01:24:30.859
if it's unfair that they have to do a swim test

01:24:30.859 --> 01:24:33.189
every six months or a year. They'll laugh in

01:24:33.189 --> 01:24:36.670
your face. I was a lifeguard myself. So for cops

01:24:36.670 --> 01:24:39.289
and firemen and paramedics and EMTs to start

01:24:39.289 --> 01:24:41.470
crying in their cornflakes about being held to

01:24:41.470 --> 01:24:43.229
a standard when they were held to a standard

01:24:43.229 --> 01:24:45.890
in the academy, certainly fire and police, maybe

01:24:45.890 --> 01:24:50.449
not EMS, but it should be, is insane. So now

01:24:50.449 --> 01:24:52.989
we get to move the needle on the work week. Now

01:24:52.989 --> 01:24:55.409
we put fitness standards in. Now these young

01:24:55.409 --> 01:24:57.289
fired up recruits are like, well, wait a second.

01:24:57.529 --> 01:24:59.770
This is getting pretty hard to be a firefighter

01:24:59.770 --> 01:25:02.100
now. I think I'm interested. Because I can tell

01:25:02.100 --> 01:25:03.979
you hand on my heart, the worst fire department

01:25:03.979 --> 01:25:05.939
I ever worked for, the bar was in a trench in

01:25:05.939 --> 01:25:08.619
the floor and no one wanted to work for them.

01:25:08.840 --> 01:25:11.239
The best fire department I ever worked for, they

01:25:11.239 --> 01:25:13.939
would cut a quarter of every probationary class.

01:25:14.319 --> 01:25:17.039
No one ever left that fire department. And you

01:25:17.039 --> 01:25:19.319
had people lining up around the building to work

01:25:19.319 --> 01:25:22.359
for them. So you want to forge recruitment. You

01:25:22.359 --> 01:25:24.239
fix the things that are broken that show your

01:25:24.239 --> 01:25:26.039
employees that you care. And then you put that

01:25:26.039 --> 01:25:29.100
bar freaking high. and you challenge the best

01:25:29.100 --> 01:25:31.659
recruits that are out there to reach that bar,

01:25:31.859 --> 01:25:34.260
you will see recruitment go through the roof

01:25:34.260 --> 01:25:38.159
again. I can't agree with you more. And I will

01:25:38.159 --> 01:25:42.060
say this, as I take this back in the career setting,

01:25:42.140 --> 01:25:45.140
at least in the Northeast, I throw this in the

01:25:45.140 --> 01:25:49.140
union's lap because my own union for years fought

01:25:49.140 --> 01:25:51.380
fitness standards, fought it tooth and nail.

01:25:51.479 --> 01:25:53.579
And I know we talked about this years ago when

01:25:53.579 --> 01:25:56.529
I was on with you. And I'm sure today they would

01:25:56.529 --> 01:26:00.069
fight it again to a degree because they don't,

01:26:00.069 --> 01:26:01.670
you know, we're here to protect our men. Well,

01:26:01.829 --> 01:26:04.489
if you're here to protect our men and women of

01:26:04.489 --> 01:26:07.569
this job, I don't want the guy next to me that

01:26:07.569 --> 01:26:09.789
can't do the job. I'm not in the condition I'm

01:26:09.789 --> 01:26:14.590
in today. I should not be nearly, I don't feel

01:26:14.590 --> 01:26:17.430
that I can do the job I once did, right? At 55,

01:26:17.850 --> 01:26:21.630
I probably should lose 40 pounds. I'm still riding

01:26:21.630 --> 01:26:23.630
on a volunteer fire engine. I'm still doing my

01:26:23.630 --> 01:26:26.789
job. Do I do it as well as that 25 -year -old?

01:26:27.029 --> 01:26:29.970
Not physically. Mentally, yeah, absolutely. I

01:26:29.970 --> 01:26:31.890
can outthink him. I can tell him what he needs

01:26:31.890 --> 01:26:34.470
to do. But physically, I'm not going to be as

01:26:34.470 --> 01:26:37.869
fast, as strong, and as mobile as that guy. But

01:26:37.869 --> 01:26:40.470
I should have a standard level to meet. And if

01:26:40.470 --> 01:26:43.010
I don't, I'm going to continue to slip. In a

01:26:43.010 --> 01:26:46.010
lot of places, no matter how self -driven we

01:26:46.010 --> 01:26:48.930
are and self -motivated, over time, we start

01:26:48.930 --> 01:26:52.050
to slip. And we all have that gap at times in

01:26:52.050 --> 01:26:56.279
our lives, right? So I feel that. I watched my

01:26:56.279 --> 01:26:58.319
fire department hire a guy off the civil service

01:26:58.319 --> 01:27:00.939
list. Now I'm retired, right? They hired this

01:27:00.939 --> 01:27:03.960
guy recently and within the last few years. He

01:27:03.960 --> 01:27:06.859
was a wonderful kid, great kid. When he took

01:27:06.859 --> 01:27:10.340
the test three years ago, he was in much better

01:27:10.340 --> 01:27:13.479
physical condition than he's in today. Well,

01:27:13.720 --> 01:27:16.659
civil service rules, our union, the whole nine

01:27:16.659 --> 01:27:20.960
yards, nobody bitched that today he doesn't meet

01:27:20.960 --> 01:27:25.630
anywhere near a standard. He's a liability to

01:27:25.630 --> 01:27:28.010
himself, to his family, and to the job. Bottom

01:27:28.010 --> 01:27:30.729
line, I don't care how great a person you are

01:27:30.729 --> 01:27:34.949
and how much I love you. It's not right. And

01:27:34.949 --> 01:27:37.050
is that the guy that you want coming through

01:27:37.050 --> 01:27:39.869
your bedroom window or that you would expect

01:27:39.869 --> 01:27:41.729
to be able to come through your bedroom window,

01:27:41.810 --> 01:27:43.949
for Christ's sake? If we're not going to hold

01:27:43.949 --> 01:27:46.630
them to a standard, and this should be in the

01:27:46.630 --> 01:27:48.390
volunteer service too, and I know what they say.

01:27:48.569 --> 01:27:50.270
In the volunteers, it's like, hey, we'll take

01:27:50.270 --> 01:27:53.340
anybody we can get. Okay, take them. But you

01:27:53.340 --> 01:27:55.239
can't rely on them to be a frontline fireman.

01:27:55.579 --> 01:27:58.600
Bottom line. In the career service, you hold

01:27:58.600 --> 01:28:01.180
the freaking hammer, right? You're paying them.

01:28:01.239 --> 01:28:04.140
They got to meet a standard. Is the union willing

01:28:04.140 --> 01:28:08.220
to step up and say, listen, man, I can't protect

01:28:08.220 --> 01:28:11.220
your job if you can't run the mile in 12 minutes

01:28:11.220 --> 01:28:13.460
or 14 minutes or whatever the thing is, or if

01:28:13.460 --> 01:28:16.699
you can't finish a CPAT in whatever the time

01:28:16.699 --> 01:28:20.760
is for a CPAT. There's no excuse. I actually.

01:28:21.229 --> 01:28:24.569
I talked to a woman who's on the job recently

01:28:24.569 --> 01:28:28.250
in the Northeast, and I don't really know her

01:28:28.250 --> 01:28:30.310
from Adam other than I've seen her social media

01:28:30.310 --> 01:28:32.970
and I see that she's into the job. And then I

01:28:32.970 --> 01:28:34.470
talked to a couple people just because I want

01:28:34.470 --> 01:28:36.489
to, you know, find out. When somebody's asking

01:28:36.489 --> 01:28:39.789
me my advice, I want to find out about them before

01:28:39.789 --> 01:28:41.949
I'm going to give advice. And everybody I talked

01:28:41.949 --> 01:28:44.430
to said, you know, very strong firefighter, does

01:28:44.430 --> 01:28:47.069
what it takes, physically fit, really into the

01:28:47.069 --> 01:28:51.340
job, all nine yards, right? I talked to her about

01:28:51.340 --> 01:28:55.199
it and, and just a beast to prove very much.

01:28:55.699 --> 01:28:58.520
I put her in contact with Jenny and it was right

01:28:58.520 --> 01:29:00.859
after Jenny Grima's, uh, this was what a week

01:29:00.859 --> 01:29:03.659
or so ago. I sent her the Jenny Grima link to

01:29:03.659 --> 01:29:06.439
her, her interview with you and said, this is

01:29:06.439 --> 01:29:09.840
somebody I think you two should talk and, and

01:29:09.840 --> 01:29:13.340
her motivation and her dedication to what she's

01:29:13.340 --> 01:29:16.220
doing. And she's not a young kid. You know, she's

01:29:16.220 --> 01:29:19.510
got kids, the whole nine yards. Those are the

01:29:19.510 --> 01:29:23.569
people. If she can do it, I can do it. If she

01:29:23.569 --> 01:29:26.850
can do it, that 24 -year -old kid who just maybe

01:29:26.850 --> 01:29:30.010
graduated college or who works, you know, wherever

01:29:30.010 --> 01:29:32.069
he works and has decided he's going to get on

01:29:32.069 --> 01:29:35.529
a job, get your ass in shape and do it, and the

01:29:35.529 --> 01:29:37.710
union should hold your feet to the fire for the

01:29:37.710 --> 01:29:40.470
next 30 years of your career, just like the town

01:29:40.470 --> 01:29:43.350
should. Our state police have them run every

01:29:43.350 --> 01:29:46.649
year. Why can't we? You know? I mean, you see

01:29:46.649 --> 01:29:49.840
it. I don't understand it. My wife and I have

01:29:49.840 --> 01:29:52.359
this conversation all the time. She's a retired

01:29:52.359 --> 01:29:56.359
division one, all American athlete. And at her

01:29:56.359 --> 01:29:59.020
age is still out there running on field hockey

01:29:59.020 --> 01:30:03.020
fields, coaching kids and really outworks a lot

01:30:03.020 --> 01:30:05.920
of the damn kids, you know? So it's like, if

01:30:05.920 --> 01:30:09.100
we can do this, you can do this. It's again,

01:30:09.199 --> 01:30:11.539
like I said about wanting to do something, you've

01:30:11.539 --> 01:30:13.760
got to have the goddamn will to make it happen.

01:30:13.819 --> 01:30:17.819
And without the will and the initiative. What

01:30:17.819 --> 01:30:20.079
are we doing? We're failing ourselves. We're

01:30:20.079 --> 01:30:23.180
failing our community. Down the road, that guy

01:30:23.180 --> 01:30:26.119
who's so far out of shape or that girl who can't

01:30:26.119 --> 01:30:28.300
throw the ladder because she didn't drill like

01:30:28.300 --> 01:30:31.239
Jenny explained the drilling is not going to

01:30:31.239 --> 01:30:33.420
be able to get that ladder to that window where

01:30:33.420 --> 01:30:36.979
that kid is. And now what did we do? It's on

01:30:36.979 --> 01:30:39.699
us. It's not even just on them. It's on us as

01:30:39.699 --> 01:30:44.640
well. It's a screwed up system, man. I think

01:30:44.640 --> 01:30:47.119
the thing that pisses me off, and it's the same

01:30:47.119 --> 01:30:49.939
with 24 -72, there is no downside from saving

01:30:49.939 --> 01:30:53.840
money to restoring relationships to recovery

01:30:53.840 --> 01:30:56.880
from training, processing, learning. I mean,

01:30:56.899 --> 01:30:59.560
everything gets better, everything. And it's

01:30:59.560 --> 01:31:01.659
the same with fitness standards. Our ability

01:31:01.659 --> 01:31:04.079
to perform, and I've said this many times, the

01:31:04.079 --> 01:31:06.239
last place I worked that hardly ever saw fire

01:31:06.239 --> 01:31:10.220
next to my station was a 30 -story hotel, 3 -0.

01:31:10.720 --> 01:31:13.680
So with a high rise trip at the time, I was 168

01:31:13.680 --> 01:31:15.819
pounds. The high rise trip was another 100 pounds,

01:31:15.899 --> 01:31:19.319
30 floors up. Worst case scenario, before you

01:31:19.319 --> 01:31:22.039
go to work, there's a reason why we have a fitness

01:31:22.039 --> 01:31:24.399
standard. Pavarotti was a phenomenal singer.

01:31:24.520 --> 01:31:26.420
Doesn't mean he would have been a good firefighter.

01:31:26.420 --> 01:31:27.899
So just because someone is good at something

01:31:27.899 --> 01:31:29.859
doesn't mean they're the right thing for the

01:31:29.859 --> 01:31:31.680
job. I would be a horrible accountant. I always

01:31:31.680 --> 01:31:35.199
say that. So performance is obviously the most

01:31:35.199 --> 01:31:37.460
important thing, arguably in one area. But the

01:31:37.460 --> 01:31:40.279
other thing is longevity. Every department that

01:31:40.279 --> 01:31:43.380
has opposed fitness standards has said, I don't

01:31:43.380 --> 01:31:46.039
mind our people dying younger. That's literally

01:31:46.039 --> 01:31:48.500
what you're saying. I don't want to maintain

01:31:48.500 --> 01:31:52.380
their health. So therefore, if they die of everything

01:31:52.380 --> 01:31:54.340
from, you know, I mean, everything, strokes,

01:31:54.539 --> 01:31:56.779
heart disease, cancers, whatever it is that we

01:31:56.779 --> 01:32:00.020
all know are amplified through obesity, as well

01:32:00.020 --> 01:32:02.760
as sleep deprivation, then you're saying, well,

01:32:02.859 --> 01:32:05.460
that's okay. It's okay that we live five, six

01:32:05.460 --> 01:32:07.880
years after retirement. That's perfectly acceptable

01:32:07.880 --> 01:32:10.319
with me. Rather than having the guts to say,

01:32:10.420 --> 01:32:13.180
that is unacceptable. Not only our ability to

01:32:13.180 --> 01:32:15.479
perform, but I care about our people. Oh, and

01:32:15.479 --> 01:32:17.220
by the way, they're paying union dues, so I should

01:32:17.220 --> 01:32:20.600
probably actually earn my money. But their lifespan

01:32:20.600 --> 01:32:23.720
is important. I want them to crush it in retirement.

01:32:23.960 --> 01:32:26.840
I want them to be drawing their pension for decades

01:32:26.840 --> 01:32:30.500
after this. So again, there is no downside, but

01:32:30.500 --> 01:32:35.000
I'm always very fair. up until recently the environment

01:32:35.000 --> 01:32:39.000
has worked against fitness health full stop you

01:32:39.000 --> 01:32:41.319
know the work week is destroying you and they

01:32:41.319 --> 01:32:43.439
don't have the capacity to do these high intensity

01:32:43.439 --> 01:32:45.859
workouts and then recover they don't have the

01:32:45.859 --> 01:32:47.779
motivation because they're so exhausted don't

01:32:47.779 --> 01:32:50.100
even have the time sometimes they're being forced

01:32:50.100 --> 01:32:52.420
in all these mandatory overtime so this is why

01:32:52.420 --> 01:32:56.520
i think this 24 72 revolution is the perfect

01:32:56.520 --> 01:32:58.949
opportunity to say we are going to create an

01:32:58.949 --> 01:33:00.989
environment that allows you to thrive and perform

01:33:00.989 --> 01:33:04.310
and be home when you're supposed to but as you

01:33:04.310 --> 01:33:07.329
know and and parallel to that we're finally going

01:33:07.329 --> 01:33:09.050
to go put those fitness standards in and the

01:33:09.050 --> 01:33:11.210
misconception is oh you're trying to take everyone's

01:33:11.210 --> 01:33:14.569
jobs no of course there will be an on -ramp period

01:33:14.569 --> 01:33:17.590
a year 18 months whatever it is to get to this

01:33:17.590 --> 01:33:19.850
point yeah but by that point you're going to

01:33:19.850 --> 01:33:22.930
be one of two people the person who put the work

01:33:22.930 --> 01:33:25.109
in because they value their job they value their

01:33:25.109 --> 01:33:26.850
health and they got back to where they've always

01:33:26.850 --> 01:33:29.359
wanted to be And the person who doesn't want

01:33:29.359 --> 01:33:32.180
to do the work. And if someone is scared of being

01:33:32.180 --> 01:33:35.600
tired, is scared of a workout, I do not want

01:33:35.600 --> 01:33:37.819
that person on the hose line or on the roof next

01:33:37.819 --> 01:33:40.520
to me, period. So it even allows you to filter

01:33:40.520 --> 01:33:42.939
out the people that slip through the cracks or

01:33:42.939 --> 01:33:44.939
they're just kind of fallen out of love with

01:33:44.939 --> 01:33:47.319
the job. And then if you're lucky, then you transition

01:33:47.319 --> 01:33:50.100
into prevention or take an early retirement.

01:33:50.300 --> 01:33:53.039
But those people have no business being in a

01:33:53.039 --> 01:33:56.899
profession where lives are at stake. You go to

01:33:56.899 --> 01:34:00.920
a fitness standard. You give everyone the tools

01:34:00.920 --> 01:34:04.460
to get back to that point where they do meet

01:34:04.460 --> 01:34:07.359
those requirements. And then, you know, maybe

01:34:07.359 --> 01:34:09.340
you might lose one and two that just realize

01:34:09.340 --> 01:34:10.939
they don't want to do that anymore. But again,

01:34:11.060 --> 01:34:14.100
there is no downside other than, as I've said

01:34:14.100 --> 01:34:17.579
many times, having the courage to say this needs

01:34:17.579 --> 01:34:21.859
to happen. It's absolutely what it is. It's the

01:34:21.859 --> 01:34:25.260
will. It's the courage. It's the drive to make

01:34:25.260 --> 01:34:27.920
it better. I've listened to so many people who've

01:34:27.920 --> 01:34:30.319
come on your podcast and some of the others and

01:34:30.319 --> 01:34:33.680
folks who aren't in our profession, a lot of

01:34:33.680 --> 01:34:35.800
the military operators and a lot of the people

01:34:35.800 --> 01:34:38.520
who are studying the military operators and so

01:34:38.520 --> 01:34:40.619
forth. And I don't compare us to them anyway.

01:34:41.279 --> 01:34:43.420
I've heard guys say, oh, firemen, we're the Navy

01:34:43.420 --> 01:34:45.800
SEALs at a fire service in SOC. Get the fuck

01:34:45.800 --> 01:34:49.600
out. No, you're not. Right. It's just I was in

01:34:49.600 --> 01:34:51.180
the ocean swimming the other day and it was really

01:34:51.180 --> 01:34:53.300
rough. Right. And I came out and I said to my

01:34:53.300 --> 01:34:55.159
wife, I don't know how those guys in the service

01:34:55.159 --> 01:34:57.779
truly do this. Like, I'm a I'm a strong swimmer.

01:34:58.079 --> 01:35:00.380
We were out there swimming for 15, 20 minutes.

01:35:00.420 --> 01:35:03.920
I'm like, my ass is cooked, you know. But but,

01:35:04.039 --> 01:35:06.960
you know, I listen to these folks and I look

01:35:06.960 --> 01:35:10.300
at the mental health aspect of it. Right. If

01:35:10.300 --> 01:35:12.060
they're healthier, their mental health is better.

01:35:12.180 --> 01:35:14.739
Their relationships are better. I wish I had

01:35:14.739 --> 01:35:16.960
known this. when i was screwing up my life years

01:35:16.960 --> 01:35:19.720
ago you know i'm i'm blessed i got a second chance

01:35:19.720 --> 01:35:23.939
i'm in a good spot my life is good but you know

01:35:23.939 --> 01:35:26.779
so many of the guys didn't get the second chance

01:35:26.779 --> 01:35:28.840
and you know literally ate a bullet or did what

01:35:28.840 --> 01:35:32.479
they did because of all these things that compounded

01:35:32.479 --> 01:35:35.039
and the physical fitness is always part of that

01:35:35.039 --> 01:35:38.539
that at least it's it's a component if we've

01:35:38.539 --> 01:35:40.600
got good physical fitness it helps towards our

01:35:40.600 --> 01:35:44.680
mental fitness we do our job better It just all

01:35:44.680 --> 01:35:47.159
falls into place. And I'm not the guy who should

01:35:47.159 --> 01:35:49.159
preach physical fitness. You know, if I take

01:35:49.159 --> 01:35:50.899
my shirt off and look in the mirror, I'm not

01:35:50.899 --> 01:35:54.699
pleased, right? But I know what it takes. And

01:35:54.699 --> 01:35:57.880
I just have a strong belief in it. And it goes

01:35:57.880 --> 01:36:02.720
to, again, chief officers, right? I watch all

01:36:02.720 --> 01:36:06.340
these different memes and videos and reels of

01:36:06.340 --> 01:36:08.880
guys who are just tearing the shit out of the

01:36:08.880 --> 01:36:12.220
administration of fire departments, right? Some

01:36:12.220 --> 01:36:14.340
of them are well -earned. I'm not going to lie.

01:36:14.479 --> 01:36:17.060
Some of these guys deserve every bit of it. Jesus

01:36:17.060 --> 01:36:19.399
Christ, if you're a chief officer or a commanding

01:36:19.399 --> 01:36:21.939
officer of an organization, commissioners, whatever

01:36:21.939 --> 01:36:25.260
they are, have the balls to step up and say,

01:36:25.319 --> 01:36:29.159
we're going to implement this. And I'll equate

01:36:29.159 --> 01:36:30.979
it to this. Whether you like Trump, you hate

01:36:30.979 --> 01:36:33.680
Trump, whatever the case may be. And it's a completely

01:36:33.680 --> 01:36:35.880
polarizing person, right? So I'm not here to

01:36:35.880 --> 01:36:39.479
talk politics. But what do we see him do? He

01:36:39.479 --> 01:36:42.479
does it. whether he ruffles feathers or not,

01:36:42.600 --> 01:36:44.979
he does it. And then he'll say, well, let the

01:36:44.979 --> 01:36:49.020
courts decide, right? Well, at least he took

01:36:49.020 --> 01:36:50.960
action. And I don't agree with every action he

01:36:50.960 --> 01:36:53.619
takes, but at least he took some action and said,

01:36:53.699 --> 01:36:56.520
all right, I'm making a decision. I think it's

01:36:56.520 --> 01:36:59.640
making things better. And if you don't like it,

01:36:59.659 --> 01:37:03.079
fight me and we'll see where we end up. But maybe

01:37:03.079 --> 01:37:05.020
we can work this out together. And that's what

01:37:05.020 --> 01:37:07.520
chiefs need to do with their unions. and with

01:37:07.520 --> 01:37:09.920
everybody else you can't look at it as your complete

01:37:09.920 --> 01:37:12.680
foe yeah you're on opposite sides of the aisle

01:37:12.680 --> 01:37:15.960
right but make a decision if i was a fire chief

01:37:15.960 --> 01:37:18.720
today in a fire department you know that needed

01:37:18.720 --> 01:37:21.220
this i would immediately say we're going to institute

01:37:21.220 --> 01:37:24.960
a health and safety program we're going to institute

01:37:24.960 --> 01:37:27.800
annual fit tests right not just your fit test

01:37:27.800 --> 01:37:31.119
on your mask but fitness testing and if you don't

01:37:31.119 --> 01:37:33.520
meet a certain standard you're going to have

01:37:33.520 --> 01:37:37.710
this time like you said to on -ramp And if you

01:37:37.710 --> 01:37:39.890
refuse to do that or you physically can't do

01:37:39.890 --> 01:37:42.189
that or medically, it'll be a case -by -case

01:37:42.189 --> 01:37:44.829
basis. But we're going to make change in this

01:37:44.829 --> 01:37:46.989
organization, and we're going to see it happen,

01:37:47.109 --> 01:37:49.489
and we're going to be better at what we do because

01:37:49.489 --> 01:37:52.890
of it. And you don't have to look like an Adonis

01:37:52.890 --> 01:37:55.329
to do it. I've worked with guys who were 300

01:37:55.329 --> 01:37:58.789
pounds and 6 '4", and they could throw line all

01:37:58.789 --> 01:38:02.010
day, ladders all day, and do fine in their fit

01:38:02.010 --> 01:38:05.399
tests, right? They were great. absolute studs

01:38:05.399 --> 01:38:08.760
so it's not the skinny little guy who who weighs

01:38:08.760 --> 01:38:12.100
140 and you know is running marathons it can

01:38:12.100 --> 01:38:15.460
be for all of us but it's got to be done and

01:38:15.460 --> 01:38:17.939
if officers don't have the balls to step up and

01:38:17.939 --> 01:38:21.899
do it or the will to step up and do it you're

01:38:21.899 --> 01:38:25.550
failing you're failing the fire service A hundred

01:38:25.550 --> 01:38:27.369
percent. And I agree. I couldn't agree more.

01:38:27.449 --> 01:38:29.449
You don't have to have, you know, a six pack

01:38:29.449 --> 01:38:31.550
beach body. It's not about that at all. And I

01:38:31.550 --> 01:38:33.210
think that even with the strength and conditioning

01:38:33.210 --> 01:38:35.470
coaches, you know, they're talking about, you

01:38:35.470 --> 01:38:37.569
know, Mets on the bike or all this stuff. I'm

01:38:37.569 --> 01:38:40.470
like, to me, this is just my opinion now. Forget

01:38:40.470 --> 01:38:43.909
even that. Go back to the CPAT or the fire sled,

01:38:44.109 --> 01:38:46.149
you know, the FPAT, I think they call it, whatever

01:38:46.149 --> 01:38:48.970
it is, fire ground tasks. So whether you are

01:38:48.970 --> 01:38:53.390
male, female, 18, 50, gay, straight, trans. you

01:38:53.390 --> 01:38:56.010
know, half dinosaur, whatever you are, you either

01:38:56.010 --> 01:38:58.869
can or you can't. It's just that simple because,

01:38:58.869 --> 01:39:00.909
you know, if we're on the fire ground or bunkered

01:39:00.909 --> 01:39:03.710
up, all you can see is those who can and those

01:39:03.710 --> 01:39:07.220
who can't. We all know who they are. So, you

01:39:07.220 --> 01:39:09.300
know, no one can say it's unfair because it's

01:39:09.300 --> 01:39:12.039
the very implements that you had to use in fire

01:39:12.039 --> 01:39:14.720
school. And I think that's a great overall fitness

01:39:14.720 --> 01:39:17.380
test that then will transition to your ability

01:39:17.380 --> 01:39:21.000
to respond to an MCI shooting or an extrication.

01:39:21.159 --> 01:39:23.859
You know, it's if you've got the aerobic capacity

01:39:23.859 --> 01:39:27.159
and the muscular endurance to get a solid time

01:39:27.159 --> 01:39:31.699
on a CPAT, then it's a good overall barometer

01:39:31.699 --> 01:39:34.420
for other things, too. So it's not even unfair

01:39:34.420 --> 01:39:37.069
at all. You know, I've said this many times.

01:39:37.289 --> 01:39:40.130
When I was 46, I did the CPAT in seven minutes,

01:39:40.229 --> 01:39:43.449
20 seconds. I am not by any way, shape or form

01:39:43.449 --> 01:39:46.810
the fastest, strongest in anything ever. I just

01:39:46.810 --> 01:39:49.960
made sure that I own my own shit. So if a 46

01:39:49.960 --> 01:39:52.439
-year -old can shave three minutes off a CPAT,

01:39:52.520 --> 01:39:54.819
don't tell me that it's air quotes too hard to

01:39:54.819 --> 01:39:57.720
do in 10 minutes and 20 seconds. So I think it

01:39:57.720 --> 01:40:01.180
is. It's just about saying line in the sand.

01:40:01.300 --> 01:40:02.859
Enough is enough. We've done it the wrong way

01:40:02.859 --> 01:40:05.140
for too long. We fixed some of the things that

01:40:05.140 --> 01:40:08.619
were broken, i .e. the work week, which now created

01:40:08.619 --> 01:40:11.739
this immense interest in recruitment. Now all

01:40:11.739 --> 01:40:14.439
our spots are filled with each person with a

01:40:14.439 --> 01:40:17.460
career person now. Mandatory overtime has gone.

01:40:18.109 --> 01:40:21.390
Now we're going to ask you to, you know, to hold

01:40:21.390 --> 01:40:24.170
this standard, which again is just going to amplify

01:40:24.170 --> 01:40:26.470
the health benefits that we've already worked

01:40:26.470 --> 01:40:29.109
in with this work week. And now, as you said,

01:40:29.149 --> 01:40:31.109
the mental health side, the camaraderie side,

01:40:31.229 --> 01:40:33.789
the time with our family, all these things are

01:40:33.789 --> 01:40:36.130
going to improve. And maintaining your health

01:40:36.130 --> 01:40:39.050
means that when you are 55 and you spent 20 years

01:40:39.050 --> 01:40:41.289
in the fire service, you're still able to then

01:40:41.289 --> 01:40:43.109
go out in your backyard and throw a football

01:40:43.109 --> 01:40:45.729
around or, you know, go ice skating with your

01:40:45.729 --> 01:40:50.369
kids. It's so important. And now I see it as

01:40:50.369 --> 01:40:53.609
quote unquote a retiree, which I've completely

01:40:53.609 --> 01:40:55.350
screwed up retirement apparently because I'm

01:40:55.350 --> 01:40:58.210
working harder now than I ever did. But it's

01:40:58.210 --> 01:40:59.850
my choice, right? With the training company,

01:40:59.949 --> 01:41:03.590
it's my choice. But as a retiree, I see it even

01:41:03.590 --> 01:41:05.710
more, right? Because I see a lot of guys my age

01:41:05.710 --> 01:41:08.829
who are in terrible shape, who are getting these

01:41:08.829 --> 01:41:12.649
diseases, just they're not living any real quality

01:41:12.649 --> 01:41:15.579
of life. And it's scary because... There was

01:41:15.579 --> 01:41:17.520
a time where we didn't pay attention to those

01:41:17.520 --> 01:41:21.380
things, and I pray that the PFAS isn't already

01:41:21.380 --> 01:41:25.520
there and gotten me pretty good. I take all my

01:41:25.520 --> 01:41:28.359
tests. I go to my physicals, make sure that my

01:41:28.359 --> 01:41:31.039
cardiac stuff is correct, my pulmonary stuff

01:41:31.039 --> 01:41:33.680
is still good. It's very important to me. In

01:41:33.680 --> 01:41:35.460
Jersey, we have a thing called a gift from Captain

01:41:35.460 --> 01:41:38.039
Buccio that we did. It's free. Every fireman

01:41:38.039 --> 01:41:40.800
in the state can do it for free, and I do it

01:41:40.800 --> 01:41:44.520
every year. As you get older, you start to get

01:41:44.520 --> 01:41:46.619
a better perspective on this too, I think, because

01:41:46.619 --> 01:41:52.220
you're like, shit, man, I'm on the lower numbers

01:41:52.220 --> 01:41:54.479
here. I'm not going to last as long as I thought

01:41:54.479 --> 01:41:56.840
I would. So I got to be more cautious of it.

01:41:56.920 --> 01:42:00.819
And I want this younger generation to be better

01:42:00.819 --> 01:42:03.479
than me. That's our whole goal, right? You always

01:42:03.479 --> 01:42:05.760
want your kids to do better than you all. My

01:42:05.760 --> 01:42:07.859
whole thing is I want the generation of the fire

01:42:07.859 --> 01:42:10.859
service to be better than me. I watch my wife

01:42:10.859 --> 01:42:14.680
coach field hockey. And again, like I said, she

01:42:14.680 --> 01:42:18.680
coaches at a high level. And her whole thing

01:42:18.680 --> 01:42:21.899
is making sure these girls have the fitness level

01:42:21.899 --> 01:42:25.560
to be able to maintain. And then it's the skills.

01:42:25.680 --> 01:42:28.520
But they've got to be fit to do their job, so

01:42:28.520 --> 01:42:31.960
to speak. And it's no different, right? It's

01:42:31.960 --> 01:42:33.899
just no different. That's how high -performing

01:42:33.899 --> 01:42:41.260
folks do it. It's doable. Right. It's doable.

01:42:41.500 --> 01:42:45.500
I see it. So that's that's where I'm at with

01:42:45.500 --> 01:42:49.479
it. Absolutely. Well, I want to kind of pivot

01:42:49.479 --> 01:42:53.399
a little bit. You have quite the cadre that you

01:42:53.399 --> 01:42:55.159
work with with on scene training specifically.

01:42:55.199 --> 01:42:57.119
And then obviously you're you're all these other

01:42:57.119 --> 01:43:01.100
conferences as well. One common denominator I've

01:43:01.100 --> 01:43:05.859
seen from these extremely motivated, hungry firefighters

01:43:05.859 --> 01:43:09.039
is more often than not. the profit is not received

01:43:09.039 --> 01:43:11.819
in their own land and there's a very toxic culture

01:43:11.819 --> 01:43:15.680
towards them and so many people i know that are

01:43:15.680 --> 01:43:18.479
just you know really beautiful passionate firefighters

01:43:18.479 --> 01:43:21.960
really start struggle with that kind of organizational

01:43:21.960 --> 01:43:24.819
betrayal almost within their own department so

01:43:24.819 --> 01:43:26.760
talk to me about that perspective if you have

01:43:26.760 --> 01:43:30.819
one uh yeah i lived it man i lived it uh there's

01:43:30.819 --> 01:43:32.520
guys in hamilton right now that hate my guts

01:43:32.520 --> 01:43:34.920
i'm sure of it and say uh he didn't do on the

01:43:34.920 --> 01:43:39.220
job okay um you're not a prophet in your own

01:43:39.220 --> 01:43:41.340
land you know the old story 50 miles in a briefcase

01:43:41.340 --> 01:43:45.020
makes you an expert that tends to happen and

01:43:45.020 --> 01:43:47.979
unfortunately a lot of these guys who portray

01:43:47.979 --> 01:43:51.020
themselves as experts aren't and and they're

01:43:51.020 --> 01:43:54.100
not honest and they're snake oil salesmen and

01:43:54.100 --> 01:43:56.180
they're selling themselves which is even worse

01:43:56.180 --> 01:44:02.039
it's difficult at times i can tell you that when

01:44:02.039 --> 01:44:04.470
i was in charge of training at work i brought

01:44:04.470 --> 01:44:07.310
in a lot of other people from outside the organization

01:44:07.310 --> 01:44:11.729
because again over time listening to me they

01:44:11.729 --> 01:44:13.750
got tone deaf they didn't want to hear me ah

01:44:13.750 --> 01:44:15.270
it's just how we're talking again what the hell

01:44:15.270 --> 01:44:19.149
is he about you know so you i would bring in

01:44:19.149 --> 01:44:22.909
very good people who i i felt were the real deal

01:44:22.909 --> 01:44:24.430
they were vetted they knew what they were doing

01:44:24.430 --> 01:44:28.489
and they were a plus to our department um so

01:44:28.489 --> 01:44:31.449
i lived it even in my volunteer department today

01:44:34.269 --> 01:44:37.829
I'm sure that there's feathers ruffled and personalities

01:44:37.829 --> 01:44:40.970
get in the way. And at times we don't embrace

01:44:40.970 --> 01:44:45.670
some of the good in some people, right? So I

01:44:45.670 --> 01:44:49.210
see that. The people that are part of On Scene

01:44:49.210 --> 01:44:53.210
are some of the most humble, well -educated,

01:44:53.270 --> 01:44:56.430
well -experienced, and just quality people you

01:44:56.430 --> 01:44:59.430
could ever meet. And I don't know the formula

01:44:59.430 --> 01:45:02.779
for it. I had a little formula when I started

01:45:02.779 --> 01:45:06.720
on scene. I wanted geographical diversity and

01:45:06.720 --> 01:45:08.979
departmental diversity when I was doing this.

01:45:09.020 --> 01:45:12.500
I can't have just a bunch of FDNY guys preaching

01:45:12.500 --> 01:45:14.920
FDNY. You can't have a bunch of guys from Florida

01:45:14.920 --> 01:45:17.560
just preaching how they do it. Osceola, Florida,

01:45:17.640 --> 01:45:21.880
Orlando, Florida, wherever. Honestly, it really

01:45:21.880 --> 01:45:24.640
all did come through the fools. I met these guys

01:45:24.640 --> 01:45:27.079
over the years. We were all part of the fools

01:45:27.079 --> 01:45:29.319
in all different parts of the country and little

01:45:29.319 --> 01:45:32.640
by little. A friend told a friend about somebody

01:45:32.640 --> 01:45:37.220
else. And that's how this whole thing grew. My

01:45:37.220 --> 01:45:39.119
friendship with Bart Simpson, one of the founding

01:45:39.119 --> 01:45:41.060
fools, right? One of my dearest friends in the

01:45:41.060 --> 01:45:44.819
world. He never rose above firefighter in Osceola.

01:45:45.060 --> 01:45:49.500
Didn't want to. But man, a senior man who was

01:45:49.500 --> 01:45:51.680
completely respected. He's retired from there

01:45:51.680 --> 01:45:54.819
now and he's deputy chief of Malabar. But highly

01:45:54.819 --> 01:45:58.560
respected, highly educated, highly trained, very

01:45:58.560 --> 01:46:01.390
well experienced. But I'm sure there were guys

01:46:01.390 --> 01:46:03.789
in his own department that were like, ah, it's

01:46:03.789 --> 01:46:08.689
him. Oh, it's just him again. And then I look

01:46:08.689 --> 01:46:13.250
around at others. I've got a good friend of mine,

01:46:13.289 --> 01:46:15.949
and we became friends only a few years ago. My

01:46:15.949 --> 01:46:17.810
brother -in -law is a retired Prince George's

01:46:17.810 --> 01:46:21.029
County, Maryland lieutenant. He said, you ever

01:46:21.029 --> 01:46:24.649
think of bringing Ariel Jackson into your fold?

01:46:24.930 --> 01:46:28.289
He's a hell of a guy. I knew who he was. I knew

01:46:28.289 --> 01:46:30.109
he had taught with some Jersey friends of mine,

01:46:30.170 --> 01:46:32.510
and he was very good and respected, but I didn't

01:46:32.510 --> 01:46:35.189
really know him. So I sat down and talked with

01:46:35.189 --> 01:46:38.949
him. Ariel's a captain in Anne Arundel now. This

01:46:38.949 --> 01:46:42.649
is a guy who is a second generation, at least.

01:46:42.670 --> 01:46:45.409
His dad retired from Baltimore City as a captain.

01:46:46.470 --> 01:46:48.069
Worked there during the war years, the whole

01:46:48.069 --> 01:46:50.869
nine yards. Ariel has worked in the busiest places.

01:46:51.449 --> 01:46:54.250
Highly respected. Still going to a lot of fires,

01:46:54.310 --> 01:46:55.850
although now he's running their training academy.

01:46:56.520 --> 01:47:00.899
uh probably much to his chagrin but um and i

01:47:00.899 --> 01:47:03.899
and i look at him and i've never heard somebody

01:47:03.899 --> 01:47:06.520
ever say a bad thing about the man because he's

01:47:06.520 --> 01:47:11.380
just so genuine and such a good i wouldn't even

01:47:11.380 --> 01:47:14.939
say teacher but sharer is if that's a way of

01:47:14.939 --> 01:47:18.079
putting it he shares his knowledge so freaking

01:47:18.079 --> 01:47:21.100
well and relates to every student so friggin

01:47:21.100 --> 01:47:25.909
well that I'm just blessed to be around folks

01:47:25.909 --> 01:47:28.149
like that. Look at what Jenny went through. And

01:47:28.149 --> 01:47:33.850
she didn't go into detail. And she was, I would

01:47:33.850 --> 01:47:37.029
say, truly a lady about her conversation with

01:47:37.029 --> 01:47:41.909
you. But there were people who abused her. They

01:47:41.909 --> 01:47:44.390
were mentally torturing the shit out of that

01:47:44.390 --> 01:47:47.109
woman. And there's somebody who just wanted to

01:47:47.109 --> 01:47:49.569
be good at her job. She was a brilliant person,

01:47:49.670 --> 01:47:52.350
as you heard. i mean when she was talking about

01:47:52.350 --> 01:47:55.390
the cancer stuff and her studies and and research

01:47:55.390 --> 01:47:58.069
and so forth i was like glued to it you know

01:47:58.069 --> 01:48:00.449
to just hear it all and i spent a lot of time

01:48:00.449 --> 01:48:03.569
with her and i didn't even know some of the depth

01:48:03.569 --> 01:48:06.649
but she was shunned by members of her own organization

01:48:06.649 --> 01:48:11.149
and and i i think there's two things when you

01:48:11.149 --> 01:48:14.449
get involved in these things those who who are

01:48:14.449 --> 01:48:17.260
jealous of you are going to create problems Those

01:48:17.260 --> 01:48:19.079
who are fearful that you're going to make them

01:48:19.079 --> 01:48:21.199
actually rise to a level that they don't want

01:48:21.199 --> 01:48:23.859
to rise to will shun you and create problems.

01:48:24.680 --> 01:48:28.300
And those who know they're not very bright, and

01:48:28.300 --> 01:48:31.659
it's nothing against them, but they fear people

01:48:31.659 --> 01:48:36.159
who they think might be. And they almost feel

01:48:36.159 --> 01:48:37.619
like you're trying to pull the wool over their

01:48:37.619 --> 01:48:41.560
eyes. And so they're very hesitant of you, if

01:48:41.560 --> 01:48:44.720
that makes sense. And my dad explained that to

01:48:44.720 --> 01:48:47.189
me years ago. He was a brilliant man. Actually

01:48:47.189 --> 01:48:50.310
turned down invitation to Mensa on multiple occasions.

01:48:51.710 --> 01:48:53.390
Told him I don't want to be with you stuffed

01:48:53.390 --> 01:48:57.949
shirt assholes, basically. But he warned me of

01:48:57.949 --> 01:48:59.949
that. And he said, you know, you're dealing with

01:48:59.949 --> 01:49:02.310
some folks who are old school. And I was young

01:49:02.310 --> 01:49:04.470
and aggressive officer and I was cocky and I

01:49:04.470 --> 01:49:06.890
had a big mouth. Now I'm just old with a big

01:49:06.890 --> 01:49:11.369
mouth. And he warned me of that. And over the

01:49:11.369 --> 01:49:13.590
years, I've kept that in the back of my head

01:49:13.590 --> 01:49:18.899
and I see that. You know, why do you not like

01:49:18.899 --> 01:49:21.600
the guy who's the first one up to wash the rig

01:49:21.600 --> 01:49:24.479
and clean the bathrooms and, you know, be like

01:49:24.479 --> 01:49:27.399
Jenny and go out and throw ladders? You don't

01:49:27.399 --> 01:49:29.159
want to have to do it. And they're showing you

01:49:29.159 --> 01:49:31.859
up. You're not willing to rise to that level.

01:49:32.060 --> 01:49:35.300
Or, you know, as they say, it's easier to talk

01:49:35.300 --> 01:49:38.399
about somebody than actually aspire to be somebody.

01:49:40.180 --> 01:49:43.539
I think that plays a big role in the fire service.

01:49:44.329 --> 01:49:47.329
we're so full of machismo and bravado you know

01:49:47.329 --> 01:49:50.029
look at me and and i'm not saying i wasn't there

01:49:50.029 --> 01:49:51.829
when i was a young fireman i'm sure i was the

01:49:51.829 --> 01:49:56.710
same way but uh it's not the right way to be

01:49:56.710 --> 01:49:59.729
it doesn't it doesn't foster good things down

01:49:59.729 --> 01:50:04.250
the road yeah yeah i i mean i experienced that

01:50:04.250 --> 01:50:07.449
especially in the last place um you know especially

01:50:07.449 --> 01:50:10.359
the you know he's going to make us have to do

01:50:10.359 --> 01:50:13.000
more things and of course you know I mean that's

01:50:13.000 --> 01:50:14.760
the whole point is it was supposed to be you

01:50:14.760 --> 01:50:17.819
know prepared to do our job not freak out wearing

01:50:17.819 --> 01:50:20.460
the mask be fit enough to climb that high rise

01:50:20.460 --> 01:50:22.659
with all that gear i don't think that you know

01:50:22.659 --> 01:50:25.680
asking for that was was too far out of left field

01:50:25.680 --> 01:50:27.819
but i saw it you know i saw you know the hate

01:50:27.819 --> 01:50:30.319
and you know it is what it is luckily i've got

01:50:30.319 --> 01:50:32.640
skin like teflon we're going back to pfas for

01:50:32.640 --> 01:50:34.680
a second i just don't give a fuck what people

01:50:34.680 --> 01:50:37.039
think i'll be completely honest because if it

01:50:37.039 --> 01:50:38.819
needs to be changed and it's going to save lives

01:50:38.819 --> 01:50:41.000
then You know, I'm going to make sure that I'm

01:50:41.000 --> 01:50:43.819
part of that conversation. Where I have an issue

01:50:43.819 --> 01:50:46.800
with all this, though, is I see this as one of

01:50:46.800 --> 01:50:49.640
the least spoken elements of the mental health

01:50:49.640 --> 01:50:53.060
crisis, that you have this person that was rah,

01:50:53.199 --> 01:50:55.119
rah, rah in the academy and all the instructors

01:50:55.119 --> 01:50:56.579
are like, this is what you got to be. And they

01:50:56.579 --> 01:50:58.079
get into these departments and they're like,

01:50:58.180 --> 01:51:00.000
sit down, shut up. You're making us look bad.

01:51:00.359 --> 01:51:03.180
And that can be devastating because you have

01:51:03.180 --> 01:51:06.630
joined a tribe and you believe that. You know,

01:51:06.670 --> 01:51:08.930
this tribe is going to want to be the best and

01:51:08.930 --> 01:51:10.390
they're going to take the fitness seriously and

01:51:10.390 --> 01:51:13.250
the training seriously. And, you know, the culture

01:51:13.250 --> 01:51:17.510
is going to be one of fun and playfulness and

01:51:17.510 --> 01:51:19.350
sports together and eating together. And they

01:51:19.350 --> 01:51:21.109
get there and everyone's in their individual

01:51:21.109 --> 01:51:23.050
dorms and they're all eating on their own. And,

01:51:23.090 --> 01:51:25.409
you know, they barely ever train or whatever

01:51:25.409 --> 01:51:28.869
the thing is. And now you try and be that spark

01:51:28.869 --> 01:51:31.250
plug in that firehouse, that department, and

01:51:31.250 --> 01:51:35.500
you're vilified for it. So I think this is another

01:51:35.500 --> 01:51:38.159
part. All the people that you surround yourself

01:51:38.159 --> 01:51:41.579
with that do kind of put themselves as the tall

01:51:41.579 --> 01:51:44.760
poppy, not for narcissism, but to actually just

01:51:44.760 --> 01:51:48.960
try and forge progress, that then get so much

01:51:48.960 --> 01:51:51.600
negativity that that becomes detrimental to their

01:51:51.600 --> 01:51:53.399
own mental health. So I think this is another

01:51:53.399 --> 01:51:56.739
important conversation. I think you're right.

01:51:56.819 --> 01:52:02.060
It is. It really is. Another example. i talked

01:52:02.060 --> 01:52:05.619
to someone who uh is and again i don't want to

01:52:05.619 --> 01:52:07.380
get too detailed because i don't know that they

01:52:07.380 --> 01:52:10.460
would want me to but but uh this person is a

01:52:10.460 --> 01:52:16.159
captain in a department mid -south a fairly good

01:52:16.159 --> 01:52:18.520
-sized department and and has gone through i

01:52:18.520 --> 01:52:20.640
think some of the same like guys will be like

01:52:20.640 --> 01:52:22.600
wow do i really want to work on that crew because

01:52:22.600 --> 01:52:25.140
i know that that captain they drill every day

01:52:25.140 --> 01:52:29.159
and you know she's into it she she pushes the

01:52:29.159 --> 01:52:33.090
company hard but yet She fosters family atmosphere

01:52:33.090 --> 01:52:36.489
in the company. But do I want to be, you know,

01:52:36.489 --> 01:52:39.689
a part of being pushed that hard? And I think

01:52:39.689 --> 01:52:42.449
that she's received shit in her career because

01:52:42.449 --> 01:52:44.789
of the same thing. Like, hey, we're going to

01:52:44.789 --> 01:52:47.689
be better than, you know, this company on BeepleTune.

01:52:47.810 --> 01:52:49.710
We are ApleTune and we're this. You know, like

01:52:49.710 --> 01:52:53.489
taking pride in that and fostering that. And

01:52:53.489 --> 01:52:56.789
has she taken a beating over that? Even beat

01:52:56.789 --> 01:52:58.810
herself up over it over the years? Probably.

01:52:59.600 --> 01:53:02.000
And it's sad because these are the people we

01:53:02.000 --> 01:53:03.659
need. These are the people that are going to

01:53:03.659 --> 01:53:06.800
foster the next generation. Like you said, these

01:53:06.800 --> 01:53:11.680
are the folks who, they're creating it. They're

01:53:11.680 --> 01:53:15.340
creating what's good in the fire service or pushing

01:53:15.340 --> 01:53:19.880
it even better. Good example, we just trained

01:53:19.880 --> 01:53:22.460
with the East Orange, New Jersey Fire Department.

01:53:24.779 --> 01:53:27.949
192 members, something of that nature. They work

01:53:27.949 --> 01:53:31.550
24 -72, typical Northeast fire department. They

01:53:31.550 --> 01:53:33.550
border kind of right around the city of Newark.

01:53:33.789 --> 01:53:40.550
It's a very rough, poor city. Probably, my guess

01:53:40.550 --> 01:53:44.369
is high 90 % African -American fire department,

01:53:44.470 --> 01:53:47.250
which represents the demographics of their city.

01:53:47.789 --> 01:53:49.949
And I got to tell you, when I was going to go

01:53:49.949 --> 01:53:52.329
up there to teach, there were folks. Now, I was

01:53:52.329 --> 01:53:55.260
involved in a company that I do a lot of. A lot

01:53:55.260 --> 01:53:57.380
of consulting force sold them their turnout gear.

01:53:57.779 --> 01:53:59.800
And so I was up there when they were getting

01:53:59.800 --> 01:54:02.560
sized and making sure everything went right with

01:54:02.560 --> 01:54:06.579
them, for them. And then we provide them with

01:54:06.579 --> 01:54:09.300
their personal escape system training. And what

01:54:09.300 --> 01:54:13.180
I saw out of 190 people that went through that

01:54:13.180 --> 01:54:18.619
training was a huge majority of folks who wanted

01:54:18.619 --> 01:54:21.939
to be there and who wanted to learn. And some

01:54:21.939 --> 01:54:24.720
company officers who really, really took the

01:54:24.720 --> 01:54:27.060
lead. And, you know, my company is going to do

01:54:27.060 --> 01:54:28.579
this. We're going to be the best at this. And

01:54:28.579 --> 01:54:30.939
they pushed. And then I heard some rumblings.

01:54:31.000 --> 01:54:33.319
Oh, these freaking guys over there. Oh, he thinks

01:54:33.319 --> 01:54:35.539
his shit don't stink. And it was the guy who

01:54:35.539 --> 01:54:39.239
didn't want to do it. Right? Always. But those

01:54:39.239 --> 01:54:42.659
guys policed themselves, I thought, very well.

01:54:43.039 --> 01:54:45.119
And the ones who didn't want to be a part of

01:54:45.119 --> 01:54:48.060
things, they were treated a little less than.

01:54:48.960 --> 01:54:50.819
they were actually being pushed aside a little

01:54:50.819 --> 01:54:52.720
bit than the guys who wanted to push themselves

01:54:52.720 --> 01:54:56.000
hard and it was a it was a great experience uh

01:54:56.000 --> 01:54:58.899
myself and ariel jackson was up there and artie

01:54:58.899 --> 01:55:00.899
bloomer who's retired captain from harney and

01:55:00.899 --> 01:55:03.579
another old timer and we all agreed man this

01:55:03.579 --> 01:55:06.000
was a great group to work with they were self

01:55:06.000 --> 01:55:09.100
-motivated and their company officers were pushing

01:55:09.100 --> 01:55:12.340
their members and it was a lot of fun to see

01:55:12.340 --> 01:55:16.489
that and encouraging as opposed to Don't let

01:55:16.489 --> 01:55:19.729
the guy who grumbles in the chair create your

01:55:19.729 --> 01:55:22.529
problems because don't let that be the vocal

01:55:22.529 --> 01:55:26.470
minority and screw you up. Let the good folks

01:55:26.470 --> 01:55:31.029
be the vocal majority and push it forward. It

01:55:31.029 --> 01:55:32.970
makes life easier. It makes going to work more

01:55:32.970 --> 01:55:35.810
fun. It's not going to work. It's kind of the

01:55:35.810 --> 01:55:39.149
frat house without the booze, honestly. At least

01:55:39.149 --> 01:55:41.550
nowadays it's without the booze. Back 30 years

01:55:41.550 --> 01:55:46.000
ago it was still there. I really believe in it.

01:55:46.060 --> 01:55:49.520
And I believe in fostering that in your people.

01:55:49.739 --> 01:55:52.960
And all the on -scene instructors, it's a trait

01:55:52.960 --> 01:55:56.960
that they all have. And at some point in their

01:55:56.960 --> 01:55:59.319
careers, they have all gone through being the

01:55:59.319 --> 01:56:03.479
pariah, so to speak. And I think we all embrace

01:56:03.479 --> 01:56:05.539
it in a way. Like you said, I embrace it at this

01:56:05.539 --> 01:56:07.479
point. And if you don't like it, tough shit.

01:56:07.859 --> 01:56:09.699
This is who I am. This is what I'm going to do.

01:56:09.939 --> 01:56:11.399
I'm going to go out there and throw portable

01:56:11.399 --> 01:56:13.960
ladders by myself, whether I'm good at it. I'm

01:56:13.960 --> 01:56:16.939
going to get good at. You know, I went to a fire

01:56:16.939 --> 01:56:18.640
the other day with the volunteers. And again,

01:56:18.760 --> 01:56:21.119
I'm 55, right? I was a chief of that volunteer

01:56:21.119 --> 01:56:23.699
department many years ago. I was on the third

01:56:23.699 --> 01:56:26.720
due engine and myself, another 55 -year -old

01:56:26.720 --> 01:56:29.239
guy who's one of my close friends, and two young

01:56:29.239 --> 01:56:31.680
kids are on the raid. And when we walked up,

01:56:31.699 --> 01:56:33.979
we walked up to the staging area kind of, and

01:56:33.979 --> 01:56:37.619
I looked at the assistant chief and I said, it's

01:56:37.619 --> 01:56:39.460
only one portable ladder and it's only going

01:56:39.460 --> 01:56:41.979
to a porch roof. Yeah, yeah, yeah, get ladders

01:56:41.979 --> 01:56:45.100
thrown. So, you know, 100 some degree day and

01:56:45.100 --> 01:56:49.439
at 55, I could still go and grab a 24 or 28,

01:56:49.600 --> 01:56:51.739
whatever it was, and throw it, you know, and

01:56:51.739 --> 01:56:53.539
set it for the guys that were working up there.

01:56:53.979 --> 01:56:56.819
It's setting that example and taking that initiative.

01:56:57.420 --> 01:57:01.300
But had I not, I'm lucky. I get to drill all

01:57:01.300 --> 01:57:03.199
the time with the on -scene guys at all the trainings.

01:57:03.819 --> 01:57:08.020
But if I was still responding and not in a training

01:57:08.020 --> 01:57:10.359
company and just in my volunteer fire company.

01:57:10.939 --> 01:57:14.020
It would behoove me to get down there on a Tuesday

01:57:14.020 --> 01:57:16.640
or a Thursday night, take a ladder off the rig

01:57:16.640 --> 01:57:18.859
and throw it 10 times until I was, you know,

01:57:18.859 --> 01:57:22.760
just to refresh myself. That's what leaders do.

01:57:23.039 --> 01:57:26.380
And if somebody pooh -poohs that, it's grown.

01:57:26.699 --> 01:57:30.300
You don't need them. And for the young folks

01:57:30.300 --> 01:57:34.500
who are taking that beating, tell them, it's

01:57:34.500 --> 01:57:37.140
my ass. I'm here. I'm here and we're going to

01:57:37.140 --> 01:57:39.899
do this. You don't like it? Tough shit. You know?

01:57:41.420 --> 01:57:44.199
Absolutely. I want to hit one more area that

01:57:44.199 --> 01:57:45.760
you actually kind of alluded to a little while

01:57:45.760 --> 01:57:47.359
ago, and then we'll go to some closing questions.

01:57:47.859 --> 01:57:50.720
Another really exciting conversation with this

01:57:50.720 --> 01:57:53.939
move to 2472 for the rest of the country, and

01:57:53.939 --> 01:57:55.579
this has been something I heard Gainesville talking

01:57:55.579 --> 01:57:59.800
about a while ago now, is laterals and therefore

01:57:59.800 --> 01:58:03.340
the conversation of reciprocity. And again, initially,

01:58:03.939 --> 01:58:07.239
the first... you know, early adopters of this

01:58:07.239 --> 01:58:09.220
movement are going to actually be able to get

01:58:09.220 --> 01:58:12.159
some phenomenal firefighters. Pasco, their last

01:58:12.159 --> 01:58:14.680
class, they had a bunch of people with 10, 15

01:58:14.680 --> 01:58:17.199
years on. I think more than half of their class

01:58:17.199 --> 01:58:19.340
were also paramedics, which is unheard of in

01:58:19.340 --> 01:58:21.680
hiring at the moment. So you're going to have

01:58:21.680 --> 01:58:23.220
that. Then you're going to have the middle group

01:58:23.220 --> 01:58:25.039
that's going to be obviously, you know, still

01:58:25.039 --> 01:58:27.699
getting some great people. And then the late

01:58:27.699 --> 01:58:29.880
adopters are going to be, you know, waiting for

01:58:29.880 --> 01:58:31.619
other people to go through fire academies so

01:58:31.619 --> 01:58:35.100
they can get it. Let's be real. But where I think

01:58:35.100 --> 01:58:38.340
there's a great opportunity is reciprocity. You

01:58:38.340 --> 01:58:41.479
know, if not, if I am a paramedic still to this

01:58:41.479 --> 01:58:44.119
day, if I want to go work in Louisiana or California

01:58:44.119 --> 01:58:47.659
or New York, I have a national registry. I challenge

01:58:47.659 --> 01:58:50.180
the state test. I'm now a medic in that state.

01:58:50.260 --> 01:58:54.119
There is not that much difference between a New

01:58:54.119 --> 01:58:57.060
York firefighter, a Florida firefighter, a California

01:58:57.060 --> 01:58:59.420
firefighter, a Washington state firefighter.

01:58:59.439 --> 01:59:02.979
There are, of course, are, you know. idiosyncrasies

01:59:02.979 --> 01:59:05.300
yeah but a hose is a hose a ladder is a ladder

01:59:05.300 --> 01:59:09.220
extrication tools you know rope rescue so what

01:59:09.220 --> 01:59:11.579
blows me away is that we've created these hurdles

01:59:11.579 --> 01:59:13.960
for people to move laterally around the country

01:59:13.960 --> 01:59:17.939
because you have you know a louisiana firefighter

01:59:17.939 --> 01:59:19.779
and his wife just got into the university of

01:59:19.779 --> 01:59:22.439
florida and he wants to now lateral over to gainesville

01:59:22.439 --> 01:59:26.859
why not he's got 10 years on you know amazing

01:59:26.859 --> 01:59:29.140
experience doing it a different way you come

01:59:29.140 --> 01:59:32.060
over here of course there would be a Gainesville

01:59:32.060 --> 01:59:35.220
orientation to show you the idiosyncrasies of

01:59:35.220 --> 01:59:37.920
how we do it, there would be a probation because

01:59:37.920 --> 01:59:40.199
he might be an absolute turd that his department

01:59:40.199 --> 01:59:42.760
couldn't wait to get rid of. And then, you know,

01:59:42.779 --> 01:59:45.319
assuming you pass all those, then you gain all

01:59:45.319 --> 01:59:47.880
this experience and from a different department

01:59:47.880 --> 01:59:49.560
with different ways of doing it, different ways

01:59:49.560 --> 01:59:54.180
of thinking. So what is your perception of national

01:59:54.180 --> 01:59:57.159
reciprocity, of course, with some sort of, you

01:59:57.159 --> 02:00:00.079
know, orientation academy put in for each department?

02:00:00.510 --> 02:00:04.470
I'm 100 % in favor of that. Why it's not being

02:00:04.470 --> 02:00:07.789
done is absolute bullshit in my mind. My buddy

02:00:07.789 --> 02:00:10.229
Steve Gillespie, retired lieutenant from the

02:00:10.229 --> 02:00:13.149
FDNY, majority of his career spent in special

02:00:13.149 --> 02:00:17.250
operations at Squad 41, retires, goes down to

02:00:17.250 --> 02:00:19.250
North Charleston and becomes their training director

02:00:19.250 --> 02:00:21.869
for North Charleston Fire Department. Has to

02:00:21.869 --> 02:00:23.989
go through everything again, challenge every

02:00:23.989 --> 02:00:27.909
test, and take every goddamn test before he could

02:00:27.909 --> 02:00:30.920
be a fireman, let alone an officer. South Carolina.

02:00:31.180 --> 02:00:33.600
What a load of bullshit that is, right? This

02:00:33.600 --> 02:00:37.420
is a guy who has seen it, done it in the busiest

02:00:37.420 --> 02:00:40.500
companies in the world, literally. And now you're

02:00:40.500 --> 02:00:42.800
telling him, well, that's not how we do it down

02:00:42.800 --> 02:00:48.699
here, son. Well, clearly you need people to come.

02:00:48.840 --> 02:00:52.239
And in a world like today, when I was younger,

02:00:52.359 --> 02:00:53.939
you didn't travel around the world. You didn't

02:00:53.939 --> 02:00:56.020
travel around the country. We weren't nearly

02:00:56.020 --> 02:01:00.380
the vagrants we are today, right? So we migrate

02:01:00.380 --> 02:01:03.760
all over the country now. My stepson lives in

02:01:03.760 --> 02:01:07.500
Newport Beach, California. My son lives in Thibodeau,

02:01:07.539 --> 02:01:10.119
Louisiana. My daughter lives here in New Jersey.

02:01:10.500 --> 02:01:14.039
We're all over the country. It's not the good

02:01:14.039 --> 02:01:16.460
old boy system, and it's got to be broken. And

02:01:16.460 --> 02:01:19.800
the reciprocity is what's holding back a lot

02:01:19.800 --> 02:01:22.699
of places from getting some absolute stud firemen,

02:01:22.779 --> 02:01:26.000
right? A lot of great firemen. I know a lot of

02:01:26.000 --> 02:01:28.670
people during COVID. They were looking. They're

02:01:28.670 --> 02:01:30.130
like, we're getting out of the Northeast. Screw

02:01:30.130 --> 02:01:32.810
this, right? Florida started hiring the cops.

02:01:32.930 --> 02:01:34.850
What did they immediately do? They took cops

02:01:34.850 --> 02:01:36.829
and they gave them reciprocity with just what

02:01:36.829 --> 02:01:39.930
you're talking about. Why we're not doing that

02:01:39.930 --> 02:01:42.890
in the fire service is absolute nonsense. Because,

02:01:42.949 --> 02:01:46.810
again, I know volunteer firemen, maybe here right

02:01:46.810 --> 02:01:48.689
in the town I'm sitting in, in Ocean County,

02:01:48.829 --> 02:01:51.390
New Jersey, who have got their Pro Board Fire

02:01:51.390 --> 02:01:55.890
1, Pro Board Fire 2, National Registry EMT. SIVO,

02:01:55.930 --> 02:01:58.829
all their ICS courses that are all national courses,

02:01:59.069 --> 02:02:03.489
right? They're fully certed out. Well, you can't

02:02:03.489 --> 02:02:05.069
come to Florida or you can't go to California

02:02:05.069 --> 02:02:07.630
because you, unless you take all our stuff all

02:02:07.630 --> 02:02:11.329
over again. Fucking nonsense. It's absolute nonsense,

02:02:11.470 --> 02:02:16.010
right? I agree. Do your own academy, you know,

02:02:16.010 --> 02:02:18.729
certainly do an entry level. Listen, you've got

02:02:18.729 --> 02:02:21.109
all your certs. We love it, but we need to teach

02:02:21.109 --> 02:02:23.880
you how we do it in. you know Jacksonville Florida

02:02:23.880 --> 02:02:27.100
or how we do it in in you know Baton Rouge Louisiana

02:02:27.100 --> 02:02:31.539
or wherever it may be you know Dayton Ohio so

02:02:31.539 --> 02:02:36.479
yeah but why would you make them start from scratch

02:02:36.479 --> 02:02:40.159
go through that whole investment all over again

02:02:40.159 --> 02:02:43.260
it makes no sense and all you're doing is is

02:02:43.260 --> 02:02:47.260
slowing down your own process it's just and Florida

02:02:47.260 --> 02:02:49.640
from what I understand is probably the hardest

02:02:49.640 --> 02:02:52.609
out of everybody followed by California which

02:02:52.609 --> 02:02:55.229
I don't know if it's state training directors,

02:02:55.470 --> 02:02:59.689
state fire marshals that are not seeing the light

02:02:59.689 --> 02:03:01.510
or we always did it this way, so we're going

02:03:01.510 --> 02:03:04.329
to continue to do it this way. Well, if I always

02:03:04.329 --> 02:03:07.770
did things stupidly, why would I want to change

02:03:07.770 --> 02:03:11.489
that? And yeah, you're absolutely right. It fires

02:03:11.489 --> 02:03:15.189
me up to no end. It really does. My son was very

02:03:15.189 --> 02:03:17.630
fortunate. He had gone through Fire 1 in Jersey,

02:03:17.810 --> 02:03:21.000
left Jersey. got on the job in South Carolina,

02:03:21.199 --> 02:03:23.819
went through Fire 1, Fire 2, got all his stuff

02:03:23.819 --> 02:03:27.359
there, pro -boarded out, left South Carolina,

02:03:27.380 --> 02:03:31.500
went to Louisiana, and they accepted it all because

02:03:31.500 --> 02:03:33.720
it was pro -boards and it met their standard.

02:03:33.979 --> 02:03:36.140
And the only thing he had to do was I think his

02:03:36.140 --> 02:03:39.659
National Registry EMT was a little different.

02:03:39.699 --> 02:03:41.960
He had to test on something. But that was it,

02:03:42.060 --> 02:03:44.920
and he was on the job. And that's what they did.

02:03:44.960 --> 02:03:47.279
They put him through their recruit academy, but

02:03:47.279 --> 02:03:49.939
it was a shortened recruit academy. And then

02:03:49.939 --> 02:03:52.760
laterally, when he went from where he was in

02:03:52.760 --> 02:03:57.260
Louisiana to Baton Rouge, they accepted all of

02:03:57.260 --> 02:03:59.659
his certs. And then they put him through their

02:03:59.659 --> 02:04:02.579
probationary period and so forth. And I think

02:04:02.579 --> 02:04:06.840
that's what he's in. But we're missing out. We're

02:04:06.840 --> 02:04:08.739
really missing out. I mean, even my volunteer

02:04:08.739 --> 02:04:10.500
company in New Egypt, I know a couple of the

02:04:10.500 --> 02:04:12.539
young kids there that just finished Fire 1 and

02:04:12.539 --> 02:04:16.539
2. They're interested in leaving and going somewhere

02:04:16.539 --> 02:04:19.939
different around the country. And one of them

02:04:19.939 --> 02:04:23.340
was asking me about that. Go, man, go. Do it.

02:04:24.260 --> 02:04:29.619
Don't let geography hold you back. And our reciprocity

02:04:29.619 --> 02:04:33.140
and certification processes should not be a hurdle

02:04:33.140 --> 02:04:40.020
getting good people. It's just foolishness. Yeah,

02:04:40.100 --> 02:04:41.920
I agree completely. And I've said this a few

02:04:41.920 --> 02:04:45.390
times now. I'm a product of exactly that. I was

02:04:45.390 --> 02:04:47.590
a Florida certified firefighter and Anaheim,

02:04:47.590 --> 02:04:50.569
California said, we'll accept your certs. Now,

02:04:50.649 --> 02:04:52.850
I don't know if that's statewide. I think Anaheim

02:04:52.850 --> 02:04:54.210
was just like, well, I don't care. You know,

02:04:54.229 --> 02:04:55.689
we're going to take that. And you see a lot of

02:04:55.689 --> 02:04:58.430
laterals in California, especially. And that

02:04:58.430 --> 02:05:00.430
actually wasn't even a lateral hiring. I went

02:05:00.430 --> 02:05:02.970
in as a new hire. And I think everyone, every

02:05:02.970 --> 02:05:05.029
other one of my classmates was not only California,

02:05:05.229 --> 02:05:07.489
but they were local California. But yeah, they

02:05:07.489 --> 02:05:10.430
took mine. And then the next they had the hiring

02:05:10.430 --> 02:05:13.119
freeze after the crash. And then the next hiring,

02:05:13.199 --> 02:05:15.880
they said, must have Academy from California.

02:05:16.380 --> 02:05:19.000
So I was then disqualified because I'd moved

02:05:19.000 --> 02:05:22.060
away from coming back, even though I'd worn their

02:05:22.060 --> 02:05:24.319
uniform for three and a half years. So it shows

02:05:24.319 --> 02:05:26.119
that a department can do a really good thing

02:05:26.119 --> 02:05:29.979
or a fucking ridiculous thing. So if Anaheim

02:05:29.979 --> 02:05:32.939
can say, no, we'll take you, then, you know,

02:05:32.939 --> 02:05:35.140
do departments have the ability to say, I don't

02:05:35.140 --> 02:05:37.579
care what the state says, we'll accept your service.

02:05:37.800 --> 02:05:41.560
And again, in the process. you know that hopefully

02:05:41.560 --> 02:05:43.199
then would open the floodgates for the states

02:05:43.199 --> 02:05:45.479
to just say all right you know we'll just accept

02:05:45.479 --> 02:05:47.460
it now because it doesn't make any sense whatsoever

02:05:47.460 --> 02:05:50.300
of course you need to have standardization which

02:05:50.300 --> 02:05:52.880
is pro board which is national registry but after

02:05:52.880 --> 02:05:56.779
that we know what excuse me welcoming you know

02:05:56.779 --> 02:05:59.720
we'll train you our way we'll put you on a probation

02:05:59.720 --> 02:06:02.720
because we don't know you very well and then

02:06:02.720 --> 02:06:04.560
you come out the other end because i mean you

02:06:04.560 --> 02:06:06.699
have i was florida's trained so we're talking

02:06:07.420 --> 02:06:09.819
Even in Hialeah, which is a phenomenal, phenomenal

02:06:09.819 --> 02:06:12.279
academy when I got the orientation with them.

02:06:12.560 --> 02:06:15.199
I mean, that was like freaking buds on steroids

02:06:15.199 --> 02:06:17.819
for firefighters when I was there. But we were

02:06:17.819 --> 02:06:20.439
still throwing ladders the academy way. Lay them

02:06:20.439 --> 02:06:22.579
flat, walk them up to the wall, pull them out,

02:06:22.640 --> 02:06:25.479
rotate them. I get to Anaheim and then, all right,

02:06:25.600 --> 02:06:27.199
you know, everyone's shouldering the ladder,

02:06:27.359 --> 02:06:30.180
sticking it. Do all these, you know, roof, you

02:06:30.180 --> 02:06:32.140
know, ops and talking about bowstring structures

02:06:32.140 --> 02:06:34.460
and panelized roofs. And I was like, oh, shit.

02:06:34.939 --> 02:06:37.640
I've got a lot to learn because we didn't learn

02:06:37.640 --> 02:06:41.220
any of this, but that's okay. They set the bar

02:06:41.220 --> 02:06:45.439
super high. I had to work my ass off, but I made

02:06:45.439 --> 02:06:47.319
the transition and I ended up being an Anaheim

02:06:47.319 --> 02:06:49.420
firefighter, which I'm very proud of. But that

02:06:49.420 --> 02:06:51.500
was the very thing that we're talking about,

02:06:51.600 --> 02:06:55.300
reciprocity between two states. It's absolute

02:06:55.300 --> 02:06:57.479
foolishness that we're not all on that same page.

02:06:57.819 --> 02:07:00.600
That's just, again, like you said, there's nuances,

02:07:00.899 --> 02:07:03.239
obviously. you know i'm going to do something

02:07:03.239 --> 02:07:05.060
a little different in hamilton than somebody's

02:07:05.060 --> 02:07:08.520
going to do in some other city so we want to

02:07:08.520 --> 02:07:10.220
make sure that they're trained to our standard

02:07:10.220 --> 02:07:13.699
as far as how we do it how we operate our sops

02:07:13.699 --> 02:07:15.859
you know whether we're laying in or we're laying

02:07:15.859 --> 02:07:18.239
out or you know what stretches we're doing what

02:07:18.239 --> 02:07:21.119
what hose packs we run all that obviously needs

02:07:21.119 --> 02:07:25.260
to be the education process has to be there but

02:07:25.260 --> 02:07:28.079
if they've got the foundation that's a piece

02:07:28.079 --> 02:07:30.250
of cake That shouldn't be a problem. And like

02:07:30.250 --> 02:07:32.430
you said, if there's a probationary period, if

02:07:32.430 --> 02:07:35.750
the guy's a turd, you wash him out. That's how

02:07:35.750 --> 02:07:41.069
this works. In an organization or in an overall

02:07:41.069 --> 02:07:43.229
fire service that says that we're struggling

02:07:43.229 --> 02:07:46.609
to get people, goddamn, don't make it even harder

02:07:46.609 --> 02:07:51.409
on ourselves. I just don't get it. And again,

02:07:51.989 --> 02:07:55.550
bureaucracy, the more layers of bureaucracy you

02:07:55.550 --> 02:07:58.229
have. Whether it be in local government, state

02:07:58.229 --> 02:08:00.689
government, especially, it feels like state government.

02:08:01.329 --> 02:08:03.149
I know here in New Jersey, state government,

02:08:03.270 --> 02:08:07.229
it's very, very tough to deal with. In all aspects,

02:08:07.470 --> 02:08:10.090
every aspect, not just the fire service, but

02:08:10.090 --> 02:08:13.850
the fire service too. Some of the rules that

02:08:13.850 --> 02:08:15.350
come out, you just look at it and you go, you've

02:08:15.350 --> 02:08:16.649
got to be kidding me. And then you see who made

02:08:16.649 --> 02:08:18.930
the rule and you go, that was a shitbag in his

02:08:18.930 --> 02:08:20.890
fire department before he got this bureaucratic

02:08:20.890 --> 02:08:22.989
position. Now he's going to be up there telling

02:08:22.989 --> 02:08:24.449
me how to do it when he was scared to stretch

02:08:24.449 --> 02:08:29.890
a line? Great. it is it is there's certainly

02:08:29.890 --> 02:08:32.369
a bunch of those names i'd love to put on record

02:08:32.369 --> 02:08:39.689
but but yeah it the reciprocity thing's a big

02:08:39.689 --> 02:08:42.149
deal it is and it's simple it's a simple fix

02:08:42.149 --> 02:08:45.050
these aren't hard problems to address these again

02:08:45.050 --> 02:08:47.970
do you have the will to fix it or don't you doesn't

02:08:47.970 --> 02:08:51.550
seem that hard no this is what i'm realizing

02:08:51.550 --> 02:08:55.729
like the solutions are simple you look at the

02:08:55.729 --> 02:08:59.090
obesity crisis you know going back to cooking

02:08:59.090 --> 02:09:01.930
real food in schools putting pe programs back

02:09:01.930 --> 02:09:05.250
in pedestrianizing downtowns bolstering local

02:09:05.250 --> 02:09:07.989
farmers to make that clean food you know close

02:09:07.989 --> 02:09:11.970
to town um you know the the uh subway system

02:09:11.970 --> 02:09:13.949
so people are more prone to be walking around

02:09:13.949 --> 02:09:16.569
there's so many things that are so so obvious

02:09:16.569 --> 02:09:18.609
and then even with you know p fast and other

02:09:18.609 --> 02:09:20.970
stuff getting away from everything being wrapped

02:09:20.970 --> 02:09:24.460
in 10 layers of plastic And going, I can go into

02:09:24.460 --> 02:09:26.880
a grocery store with a cloth bag and put my fruit

02:09:26.880 --> 02:09:28.479
and vegetables in there. You know what I mean?

02:09:28.520 --> 02:09:30.720
I mean, everything is just, how did we do it

02:09:30.720 --> 02:09:33.840
a hundred years ago? That will take us 80 % of

02:09:33.840 --> 02:09:35.819
the way. And then which parts of modern medicine

02:09:35.819 --> 02:09:38.420
and technology are truly advancing our lives?

02:09:38.520 --> 02:09:40.619
All right, well, let's move the needle on there.

02:09:40.819 --> 02:09:43.659
So, you know, you've regressed to make the human

02:09:43.659 --> 02:09:45.539
healthier in the uniform, but then you've advanced

02:09:45.539 --> 02:09:48.399
through better bunker gear, masks, helmets, et

02:09:48.399 --> 02:09:51.199
cetera, to allow us to perform better. But it

02:09:51.199 --> 02:09:54.479
always comes down to, you know, is it is it a

02:09:54.479 --> 02:09:57.520
self -serving thing or is it truly for the mission

02:09:57.520 --> 02:10:00.300
itself? Right. So, again, you know, are you worried

02:10:00.300 --> 02:10:01.920
about how you look as a firefighter? Are you

02:10:01.920 --> 02:10:03.939
worried about how you perform as a firefighter?

02:10:03.979 --> 02:10:06.039
I kind of I kind of I'm worried about both at

02:10:06.039 --> 02:10:10.640
this point. But food packaging and PFAS, you

02:10:10.640 --> 02:10:12.239
know, that was something that Dr. Stapleton spoke

02:10:12.239 --> 02:10:15.619
about yesterday. The amount of PFAS found in

02:10:15.619 --> 02:10:19.899
so much food packaging. And she said that. places

02:10:19.899 --> 02:10:22.819
like McDonald's actually of all places who cook,

02:10:22.880 --> 02:10:24.699
you know, the unhealthiest shit. And I know I

02:10:24.699 --> 02:10:27.560
eat too much of it at times. Right. But even

02:10:27.560 --> 02:10:30.600
they said, our packaging is a problem because

02:10:30.600 --> 02:10:33.460
it's in beef. We have beef us that, you know,

02:10:33.460 --> 02:10:36.560
we have these coatings in this, we need to change

02:10:36.560 --> 02:10:38.859
it. And they've, and they've since made it the

02:10:38.859 --> 02:10:42.859
effort to do that. So what you might say about

02:10:42.859 --> 02:10:45.960
RFK, you know, listen, I might not agree with

02:10:45.960 --> 02:10:49.359
everything, but At least it's on a national stage

02:10:49.359 --> 02:10:53.539
now, and he's bringing points to light that many

02:10:53.539 --> 02:10:56.340
of us didn't know about, didn't think about.

02:10:56.720 --> 02:10:58.600
Whether he's right, wrong, or indifferent, at

02:10:58.600 --> 02:11:01.100
least the conversations are being had, and now

02:11:01.100 --> 02:11:03.640
we can debate them. And that's what I like about

02:11:03.640 --> 02:11:05.920
what's going on in the country today. Lots of

02:11:05.920 --> 02:11:07.560
things I don't like, but that's definitely one

02:11:07.560 --> 02:11:10.100
of the things I do like. And we as a fire service

02:11:10.100 --> 02:11:13.140
need to have these debates and have these honest

02:11:13.140 --> 02:11:14.939
conversations with one another. We don't have

02:11:14.939 --> 02:11:17.180
to like each other. just like in the firehouse

02:11:17.180 --> 02:11:19.340
there were guys i worked with that i did not

02:11:19.340 --> 02:11:21.939
like at all i tried to respect their opinion

02:11:21.939 --> 02:11:24.899
until they proved to me that i shouldn't and

02:11:24.899 --> 02:11:27.460
i tried to show respect to them as a person until

02:11:27.460 --> 02:11:30.979
they proved to me i shouldn't but if we have

02:11:30.979 --> 02:11:34.399
these open conversations the will like i say

02:11:34.399 --> 02:11:38.899
the will it's worth doing you know and i've been

02:11:38.899 --> 02:11:40.979
saying this for years there's two things that

02:11:40.979 --> 02:11:44.560
mean a lot to me right If it's worth doing, it's

02:11:44.560 --> 02:11:47.680
worth doing passionately. Do it with passion.

02:11:48.159 --> 02:11:53.479
My fire service career, I've been way more than

02:11:53.479 --> 02:11:57.039
I should when it comes to being all in. I screwed

02:11:57.039 --> 02:11:59.439
up a lot of my personal life. Again, I'm very

02:11:59.439 --> 02:12:02.340
blessed that I got it back, that I still have

02:12:02.340 --> 02:12:04.779
my kids, that I have a great relationship with

02:12:04.779 --> 02:12:08.060
both my kids and now my stepson, that I was able

02:12:08.060 --> 02:12:11.220
to remarry somebody and have so much different

02:12:11.220 --> 02:12:17.720
relationship. But I had those chances because

02:12:17.720 --> 02:12:20.500
I was so damn passionate about the fire service.

02:12:20.539 --> 02:12:23.300
It's all I cared about. It was my ego. It was

02:12:23.300 --> 02:12:27.500
the fire service. It was all those things. And

02:12:27.500 --> 02:12:30.739
I believe that you have to be passionate about

02:12:30.739 --> 02:12:32.220
anything you're going to do to be successful.

02:12:32.720 --> 02:12:36.699
I'm quite sure that all of these very wealthy

02:12:36.699 --> 02:12:39.300
and very successful folks in industry and business,

02:12:39.500 --> 02:12:42.159
they didn't go into it half -assed. they went

02:12:42.159 --> 02:12:44.920
into it both feet i'm going to make this happen

02:12:44.920 --> 02:12:46.819
i'm going to lay it on the line and the next

02:12:46.819 --> 02:12:49.020
thing you know we all know who elon is or we

02:12:49.020 --> 02:12:52.100
all know who lover hatem bill gates is or you

02:12:52.100 --> 02:12:55.159
know what i mean these are the they did it with

02:12:55.159 --> 02:12:57.380
passion so if you're going to do it if it's worth

02:12:57.380 --> 02:13:00.119
doing in your mind it's worth doing passionately

02:13:00.119 --> 02:13:02.680
and that's how the fire service has to be because

02:13:02.680 --> 02:13:05.539
it's life and death yours and more importantly

02:13:05.539 --> 02:13:08.319
somebody else's right and the other thing that

02:13:08.319 --> 02:13:12.319
that i i really live by and I don't know that

02:13:12.319 --> 02:13:14.800
I realized, again, my mom says you can't put

02:13:14.800 --> 02:13:17.899
an old head on young shoulders. So as I've aged,

02:13:18.060 --> 02:13:19.720
I don't know if that's an old Yiddish saying

02:13:19.720 --> 02:13:23.699
or what, but that's her saying. And I think as

02:13:23.699 --> 02:13:26.520
I've aged, I've understood more that my life

02:13:26.520 --> 02:13:30.100
should be impactful, right? I shouldn't just

02:13:30.100 --> 02:13:34.180
coast along. I want to make an impact and a positive

02:13:34.180 --> 02:13:36.220
impact, not a negative one. I've made enough

02:13:36.220 --> 02:13:39.380
negative ones in my life. I want to make a positive

02:13:39.380 --> 02:13:43.789
impact on people. And my choice and my path for

02:13:43.789 --> 02:13:48.109
that is clearly the fire service. It's all I

02:13:48.109 --> 02:13:49.869
know. It's all I've ever done since I was a 14

02:13:49.869 --> 02:13:52.109
-year -old kid. When I realized I couldn't play

02:13:52.109 --> 02:13:57.310
Major League Baseball, a 5 '8", 150 -pound Jewish

02:13:57.310 --> 02:13:59.729
kid from New Egypt, New Jersey, wasn't making

02:13:59.729 --> 02:14:02.050
the big leagues. I figured it out, and I became

02:14:02.050 --> 02:14:06.430
a fireman. I'd love to go back to that 150, 160

02:14:06.430 --> 02:14:11.359
range. And I'm probably shrinking in height too.

02:14:11.739 --> 02:14:16.020
But the goal should be to make an impact, a positive

02:14:16.020 --> 02:14:18.939
impact. And I think I see guys who are out there

02:14:18.939 --> 02:14:21.319
on the teaching circuit, young firemen who are

02:14:21.319 --> 02:14:23.760
getting involved in teaching who are doing that.

02:14:24.000 --> 02:14:27.399
And I'll even – I don't want to pump up their

02:14:27.399 --> 02:14:30.220
egos too big, but a young guy in Texas named

02:14:30.220 --> 02:14:33.699
Donovan Carrasco. I watch him and he's so passionate

02:14:33.699 --> 02:14:35.439
about what he's doing. He doesn't have a ton

02:14:35.439 --> 02:14:37.560
of experience. Doesn't work in a real busy fire

02:14:37.560 --> 02:14:40.159
department. Passionate about his family, passionate

02:14:40.159 --> 02:14:43.939
about what he's doing, passionate about the job,

02:14:44.020 --> 02:14:46.399
right? And trying to make that positive impact.

02:14:46.800 --> 02:14:52.760
And I see so many of these guys. That's the blessing

02:14:52.760 --> 02:14:55.539
of being able to travel around. Look at in Florida

02:14:55.539 --> 02:14:59.619
what Basil Ibrahim does. My God, what an impactful

02:14:59.619 --> 02:15:02.899
man he is and what a passionate person he is.

02:15:03.399 --> 02:15:05.159
you don't have to agree with everything he says

02:15:05.159 --> 02:15:07.739
because when he says it man he means it and you

02:15:07.739 --> 02:15:10.359
may not always agree with it but i got to tell

02:15:10.359 --> 02:15:15.640
you i look at him and i go wow that guy if he's

02:15:15.640 --> 02:15:18.779
not inspiring young firemen to be better firemen

02:15:18.779 --> 02:15:22.000
and and when i say firemen it's women it's men

02:15:22.000 --> 02:15:25.319
you know i use that term as a term of endearment

02:15:25.319 --> 02:15:27.500
if i don't call you a fireman then i probably

02:15:27.500 --> 02:15:31.720
don't like you very much but i watch him and

02:15:31.720 --> 02:15:35.300
i go What an impactful person, right? What a

02:15:35.300 --> 02:15:39.680
passionate man. In everything he does, you just

02:15:39.680 --> 02:15:43.460
see it ooze out of him. And to me, that's the

02:15:43.460 --> 02:15:45.539
fire service. And that's what we should be. That's

02:15:45.539 --> 02:15:47.819
what we should aspire to be. And I hope that

02:15:47.819 --> 02:15:50.800
that's what guys are looking up to. It may not

02:15:50.800 --> 02:15:54.439
be me. I know I'm in the twilight. But a guy

02:15:54.439 --> 02:15:57.680
like him, a guy like Donovan, there's so many

02:15:57.680 --> 02:16:00.720
others. You see some of these other young minds

02:16:00.720 --> 02:16:03.479
in the fire service. Nick Papa. From up in Connecticut,

02:16:03.739 --> 02:16:07.439
another fabulous guy who does great instruction

02:16:07.439 --> 02:16:10.020
and has written a book. And these are the folks

02:16:10.020 --> 02:16:13.979
that when I watch them, I go, yep, they got it.

02:16:14.000 --> 02:16:16.600
The fire service is in damn good hands. And I'm

02:16:16.600 --> 02:16:18.680
proud of it. I hope that, you know, I want my

02:16:18.680 --> 02:16:21.819
son to be that way. My daughter, whenever she's

02:16:21.819 --> 02:16:26.180
going into the psychology field, she's just started

02:16:26.180 --> 02:16:29.239
another new college. And I finish up her bachelor's

02:16:29.239 --> 02:16:31.579
there and then move on. she wants to get involved

02:16:31.579 --> 02:16:33.780
in research and i just want her to be passionate

02:16:33.780 --> 02:16:38.219
about it and and make an impact on somebody's

02:16:38.219 --> 02:16:40.860
life make positive impact that's that's the way

02:16:40.860 --> 02:16:43.819
we pay it forward people people gave it to me

02:16:43.819 --> 02:16:48.399
i was mentored by great people and even i learned

02:16:48.399 --> 02:16:50.540
a lot from shitty people but i learned more from

02:16:50.540 --> 02:16:53.799
the great ones and my job is to pass that on

02:16:53.799 --> 02:16:55.979
and what you're doing with thousands of episodes

02:16:55.979 --> 02:16:59.459
behind the shield it's impactful and it's leaving

02:16:59.459 --> 02:17:03.450
that that legacy for them to look at and go and

02:17:03.450 --> 02:17:05.930
learn from. And it makes the world a better place.

02:17:06.149 --> 02:17:11.969
We're better for it. I can't make the whole world

02:17:11.969 --> 02:17:14.010
a better place. I understand my lane, right?

02:17:14.489 --> 02:17:15.969
Like my wife says all the time, we always got

02:17:15.969 --> 02:17:18.790
to stay in our lane, right? She's an amazing

02:17:18.790 --> 02:17:21.450
field hockey coach, an amazing mentor to these

02:17:21.450 --> 02:17:24.069
young girls coming through the programs. And

02:17:24.069 --> 02:17:26.969
I look at it and I'm so proud of what I see.

02:17:28.940 --> 02:17:31.500
I'm proud of what I see with my kids, how successful

02:17:31.500 --> 02:17:34.000
they are. I'm staying in my lane in the fire

02:17:34.000 --> 02:17:37.120
service. It's what I know. I'm okay at it. I've

02:17:37.120 --> 02:17:42.559
made a career out of this. And I'm blessed. Absolutely.

02:17:43.500 --> 02:17:45.360
I want to go to some quick closing questions.

02:17:45.500 --> 02:17:47.840
I think I asked you them before. I'd be interested

02:17:47.840 --> 02:17:49.399
to see if it's changed a little bit in the last

02:17:49.399 --> 02:17:51.979
few years. The first one I'd love to ask, is

02:17:51.979 --> 02:17:54.020
there a book or are there books that you'd love

02:17:54.020 --> 02:17:56.260
to recommend? It can be related to our discussion

02:17:56.260 --> 02:17:59.530
today or completely unrelated. Goodness, you

02:17:59.530 --> 02:18:03.510
know, I don't read as much as I should. I try

02:18:03.510 --> 02:18:07.530
to read on the planes and I'm flying a lot. And

02:18:07.530 --> 02:18:10.610
I've buried it up. I like to read a lot of military

02:18:10.610 --> 02:18:13.670
history type stuff. Although right now I've been

02:18:13.670 --> 02:18:15.389
sitting on the beach reading the history of the

02:18:15.389 --> 02:18:19.350
1980 world champion Phillies. So it's been my

02:18:19.350 --> 02:18:23.569
passion here lately. I think there's a lot of

02:18:23.569 --> 02:18:27.170
good leadership stuff out there. Some self -leadership

02:18:27.170 --> 02:18:31.629
stuff. it's funny i go back to a lot um it's

02:18:31.629 --> 02:18:35.510
our ship and it's your ship you know the uh abramashop

02:18:35.510 --> 02:18:38.809
stuff i really like those i think those are good

02:18:38.809 --> 02:18:42.450
for aspiring people coming up um i think if you're

02:18:42.450 --> 02:18:44.530
studying and you want to be a student of the

02:18:44.530 --> 02:18:48.670
fire service i i it's hard to believe the man's

02:18:48.670 --> 02:18:50.829
in his 90s but vinnie dunn is still pumping out

02:18:50.829 --> 02:18:54.399
books and they're still applicable So, you know,

02:18:54.399 --> 02:18:57.139
he and Chief Norman's books, when I look at a

02:18:57.139 --> 02:18:59.280
young fireman who should be studying, I would

02:18:59.280 --> 02:19:00.940
certainly look at that. I would look at Anthony

02:19:00.940 --> 02:19:04.100
Avillo's books for studying. If you want to understand

02:19:04.100 --> 02:19:06.399
strategies and tactics, I think they're very,

02:19:06.459 --> 02:19:12.840
very good. But yeah, there's another one called

02:19:12.840 --> 02:19:17.260
Dirty Work, I believe it is. I believe that's

02:19:17.260 --> 02:19:19.100
what it was called. And it was a leadership book

02:19:19.100 --> 02:19:24.409
from a guy who worked. He was a fed. He was in

02:19:24.409 --> 02:19:26.989
law enforcement, federal law enforcement, and

02:19:26.989 --> 02:19:30.450
he grew up in West Virginia. And I believe it's

02:19:30.450 --> 02:19:33.530
dirty work. It's literally on my bookshelf right

02:19:33.530 --> 02:19:37.170
near my desk at home. And I gave that to all

02:19:37.170 --> 02:19:40.290
my officers when I was the chief because I wanted

02:19:40.290 --> 02:19:43.889
them to read his idea on leadership and how to

02:19:43.889 --> 02:19:47.069
run basically small groups and so forth. And

02:19:47.069 --> 02:19:50.049
I think that's a really good one. I'd have to

02:19:50.049 --> 02:19:54.100
look it up again. And honestly, I just finished

02:19:54.100 --> 02:19:59.579
reading your book. And I read the first one and

02:19:59.579 --> 02:20:02.920
thoroughly enjoyed it. But I just read the second

02:20:02.920 --> 02:20:05.860
one. I got to go on Amazon and Google and all

02:20:05.860 --> 02:20:08.500
that stuff and put a review in because I got

02:20:08.500 --> 02:20:13.239
to tell you, that's an impactful book. It made

02:20:13.239 --> 02:20:15.500
me think about things I did wrong in my career,

02:20:15.639 --> 02:20:18.680
in my life, in my personal life. Things I didn't

02:20:18.680 --> 02:20:22.559
even realize were probably caused by whatever

02:20:22.559 --> 02:20:25.020
I was dealing with at work and I was taking it

02:20:25.020 --> 02:20:30.379
out on everybody else. You know, the suicidal

02:20:30.379 --> 02:20:37.260
ideation, everything, it was all there. But honestly,

02:20:37.420 --> 02:20:40.219
it made me think a lot. And I recommended that.

02:20:40.280 --> 02:20:42.239
I recommended it to my son. I recommended it

02:20:42.239 --> 02:20:46.329
to a lot of people. Thank you for that. Cause

02:20:46.329 --> 02:20:49.170
that's something that I would absolutely. And

02:20:49.170 --> 02:20:51.590
I can, I appreciate it. And I hope the next project

02:20:51.590 --> 02:20:53.370
with it really takes off. Cause that'll be so

02:20:53.370 --> 02:20:56.629
freaking cool. Yeah. Yeah. No, the, the, the

02:20:56.629 --> 02:20:59.030
TV show, there's a lot of irons in the fire.

02:20:59.090 --> 02:21:01.090
Cause this is the thing. I mean, I wanted to

02:21:01.090 --> 02:21:03.270
write a book for the readers, but ultimately

02:21:03.270 --> 02:21:05.850
knowing how hard it was for me to read when I

02:21:05.850 --> 02:21:08.409
was in it. sleep deprived and you know stressed

02:21:08.409 --> 02:21:10.709
and single father and all that yeah you know

02:21:10.709 --> 02:21:12.989
the netflix the streaming world is so good now

02:21:12.989 --> 02:21:16.389
so yeah get i'm i'm super excited to get this

02:21:16.389 --> 02:21:19.729
on screens i think it will be the story itself

02:21:19.729 --> 02:21:22.930
will be something that will hopefully be a mirror

02:21:22.930 --> 02:21:25.629
to whoever's you know watching and then there's

02:21:25.629 --> 02:21:27.610
going to be a parallel project that's going to

02:21:27.610 --> 02:21:30.489
provide almost like behind the scenes real world

02:21:30.489 --> 02:21:32.889
solutions so that the person's not just watching

02:21:32.889 --> 02:21:35.469
a show there'll be this other thing after where

02:21:35.469 --> 02:21:38.860
they're like oh So I can do something about the

02:21:38.860 --> 02:21:40.899
thing that I'm really struggling with. And that's

02:21:40.899 --> 02:21:43.100
never been done before. So I want, I'm going

02:21:43.100 --> 02:21:44.940
to keep it a little cryptic there, but I give

02:21:44.940 --> 02:21:47.840
it all the way. But you know, my thing is, you

02:21:47.840 --> 02:21:50.840
know, like I said, reverse 1984, you know, what

02:21:50.840 --> 02:21:53.040
if you use the very screen that was being used

02:21:53.040 --> 02:21:55.899
to divide us recently to actually start healing

02:21:55.899 --> 02:21:59.010
us. you know the story is the hook you know and

02:21:59.010 --> 02:22:01.629
i've had so many people say i got to chapter

02:22:01.629 --> 02:22:04.149
four and i had to put it down go to counseling

02:22:04.149 --> 02:22:06.489
whatever and it wasn't that it traumatized them

02:22:06.489 --> 02:22:08.670
like you said it brought things up and that's

02:22:08.670 --> 02:22:11.290
that's amazing it did so it did there were times

02:22:11.290 --> 02:22:13.370
where i had to close it and wipe some tears and

02:22:13.370 --> 02:22:16.090
all right i'll read again in a couple days you

02:22:16.090 --> 02:22:21.110
know but uh it not i won't say no books do that

02:22:21.110 --> 02:22:23.670
for me because some do there was actually a little

02:22:23.670 --> 02:22:25.770
chapter i read tulsi gabbard's book the other

02:22:25.770 --> 02:22:29.729
day while I was on the beach. And one of the

02:22:29.729 --> 02:22:32.250
stories that hit me really hard was she talked

02:22:32.250 --> 02:22:35.430
about one of the first soldiers that she lost

02:22:35.430 --> 02:22:38.010
when she was in Iraq. And he was an American

02:22:38.010 --> 02:22:41.069
Samoan sergeant. And if you know anything about

02:22:41.069 --> 02:22:43.569
the Samoan people, I'm very blessed. I get to

02:22:43.569 --> 02:22:45.049
go there every couple of years and train them.

02:22:45.649 --> 02:22:49.670
But this gentleman was a sergeant in the army

02:22:49.670 --> 02:22:53.930
and was killed, obviously, on a duty in Iraq.

02:22:54.680 --> 02:22:56.579
But when she was describing it and describing

02:22:56.579 --> 02:22:58.760
his family and describing some of the relationships,

02:22:59.180 --> 02:23:02.559
it just opened something up that I didn't know

02:23:02.559 --> 02:23:04.280
was there. And same thing. I'm like, all right,

02:23:04.280 --> 02:23:06.739
I'm going to go jump in the ocean now and chill

02:23:06.739 --> 02:23:08.620
out a little bit, maybe swim a little bit and

02:23:08.620 --> 02:23:14.340
think twice about it. So, yeah. Yeah, it's powerful.

02:23:14.579 --> 02:23:16.600
I think if you can do that with written word

02:23:16.600 --> 02:23:19.639
on a page, then you. have a scene with good acting

02:23:19.639 --> 02:23:21.479
and good you know stunts and special effects

02:23:21.479 --> 02:23:24.819
and the the music behind it you know and you

02:23:24.819 --> 02:23:26.600
know you're less likely to close that book if

02:23:26.600 --> 02:23:28.120
you're watching a show i think you just kind

02:23:28.120 --> 02:23:31.579
of you know soldier on um yeah i'm excited about

02:23:31.579 --> 02:23:34.620
the potential so we shall see it will happen

02:23:34.620 --> 02:23:37.020
all right well speaking of that what about films

02:23:37.020 --> 02:23:41.319
and documentaries that you love oh man i i i

02:23:41.319 --> 02:23:46.459
love uh i've always enjoyed watching war movies

02:23:46.940 --> 02:23:51.280
or military type movies um so you know obviously

02:23:51.280 --> 02:23:55.000
the band of brothers stuff and and um flags of

02:23:55.000 --> 02:23:58.159
our fathers i i i use some flags of our fathers

02:23:58.159 --> 02:24:01.600
stuff in one of my presentations that i do um

02:24:01.600 --> 02:24:04.379
talking about teamwork and brotherhood and things

02:24:04.379 --> 02:24:08.020
of that nature uh i really did enjoy that um

02:24:08.020 --> 02:24:11.120
i like a lot of stupid slapstick stuff from the

02:24:11.120 --> 02:24:15.239
80s just because that's my 12 year old personality

02:24:15.239 --> 02:24:18.379
still So I can still watch, you know, Animal

02:24:18.379 --> 02:24:22.200
House and, you know, the Blues Brothers and Smokey

02:24:22.200 --> 02:24:24.340
and the Bandit and laugh like a little kid and

02:24:24.340 --> 02:24:27.959
recite all the lines, you know. We used to have,

02:24:28.100 --> 02:24:30.479
we used to, any probie we had come in the firehouse

02:24:30.479 --> 02:24:32.139
after dinner, we made them watch one of those

02:24:32.139 --> 02:24:34.760
movies every night. So this way they would understand

02:24:34.760 --> 02:24:37.540
half the shit we were saying in the rig. But

02:24:37.540 --> 02:24:41.079
yeah, and I like some of the old classics. You

02:24:41.079 --> 02:24:42.579
know, Casablanca is still one of my favorites.

02:24:42.840 --> 02:24:46.690
Oh, taking in more work. Second time. There we

02:24:46.690 --> 02:24:52.069
go. Well, just over two hours. Yeah. Brilliant.

02:24:52.309 --> 02:24:53.989
All right. Well, the next question, is there

02:24:53.989 --> 02:24:56.389
a person that you recommend to come on this podcast

02:24:56.389 --> 02:24:58.969
as a guest to speak to the first responders,

02:24:59.110 --> 02:25:01.309
military and associated professions of the world?

02:25:01.950 --> 02:25:05.389
So, yeah, I'll tell you a guy who is one of the

02:25:05.389 --> 02:25:07.870
most dynamic people I know and one of my dearest

02:25:07.870 --> 02:25:10.870
friends in the world. And that's a gentleman

02:25:10.870 --> 02:25:15.620
named Carl Haddon. I think you and he would really

02:25:15.620 --> 02:25:19.899
hit it off. He's an incredibly humble fellow

02:25:19.899 --> 02:25:24.920
who now lives out in the Rocky Mountains of Idaho

02:25:24.920 --> 02:25:28.799
and still does a lot of training, still writes

02:25:28.799 --> 02:25:31.059
for Fire Engineering and Fire Rescue Magazine.

02:25:31.739 --> 02:25:36.399
But he was Roger Penske's right -hand man at

02:25:36.399 --> 02:25:39.319
Penske Racing and then became basically a chief

02:25:39.319 --> 02:25:42.360
of safety for NASCAR for a long time. Grew up

02:25:42.360 --> 02:25:45.200
in California. uh there's not much he didn't

02:25:45.200 --> 02:25:47.680
do when it came comes to the entertainment industry

02:25:47.680 --> 02:25:51.600
he's done it all met him all i mean literally

02:25:51.600 --> 02:25:55.959
you know just one of the most dear friends that

02:25:55.959 --> 02:26:00.920
my family has and um tremendous tremendous fire

02:26:00.920 --> 02:26:04.620
service educator to this day again really passionate

02:26:04.620 --> 02:26:07.139
really bright one of the most well -rounded people

02:26:07.139 --> 02:26:10.180
i've ever met and uh He can tell you some cool

02:26:10.180 --> 02:26:12.020
stories about some entertainers that he had a

02:26:12.020 --> 02:26:15.180
lot of interaction with over the years. Pretty

02:26:15.180 --> 02:26:20.040
awesome. I was scrolling through my messages,

02:26:20.040 --> 02:26:22.620
and I saw that you'd recommended that when we

02:26:22.620 --> 02:26:24.579
spoke last, which was probably, what, two, three

02:26:24.579 --> 02:26:26.540
years ago. So I've still got that contact in

02:26:26.540 --> 02:26:29.780
my phone. So I need to take this as a sign to

02:26:29.780 --> 02:26:32.659
actually make that connection. So if you see

02:26:32.659 --> 02:26:34.200
him, you're able to let him know that I'll be.

02:26:34.680 --> 02:26:36.360
you know, reaching out, I'd love to get him on.

02:26:36.399 --> 02:26:38.719
Yeah, I definitely would. And I mean, there's

02:26:38.719 --> 02:26:41.059
so many great people in the emergency services

02:26:41.059 --> 02:26:43.379
today that are doing so many great things. But

02:26:43.379 --> 02:26:49.760
I think his perspective is pretty cool. He sees

02:26:49.760 --> 02:26:53.520
the big picture beyond what others see. And I

02:26:53.520 --> 02:26:55.299
know he's reined me in on a lot of stuff in my

02:26:55.299 --> 02:26:59.659
life. Yeah. Fantastic. All right. Well, the last

02:26:59.659 --> 02:27:01.280
question before everyone knows where they can

02:27:01.280 --> 02:27:04.520
find you and On Scene Training Associates. What

02:27:04.520 --> 02:27:07.799
do you do to decompress these days? So my wife

02:27:07.799 --> 02:27:09.819
has been really helping me as she's standing

02:27:09.819 --> 02:27:12.340
over here, has helped me with this, right? So

02:27:12.340 --> 02:27:17.159
I became a scuba diver several years ago. Not

02:27:17.159 --> 02:27:20.600
a very confident one, but I got my open water

02:27:20.600 --> 02:27:25.079
cert down in Cozumel and we dove now in the Keys

02:27:25.079 --> 02:27:29.420
and Hawaii. And our last trip was to Roatan,

02:27:29.620 --> 02:27:33.139
Honduras. Uh, so that is, we don't do it as much

02:27:33.139 --> 02:27:36.120
as certainly she wants to, or I'd like to, but

02:27:36.120 --> 02:27:39.020
working on that a little more. And, uh, I've

02:27:39.020 --> 02:27:41.139
taken golf back up again, which I don't know

02:27:41.139 --> 02:27:44.120
if that decompresses me or makes me stress worse

02:27:44.120 --> 02:27:48.639
because I suck. But, um, uh, again, she's a very

02:27:48.639 --> 02:27:51.399
good golfer. So she's got patience with me. Uh,

02:27:51.540 --> 02:27:54.020
so I, but I, I enjoy it, right? It's time away

02:27:54.020 --> 02:27:57.219
from the fire service. It's time out in nature.

02:27:57.379 --> 02:27:59.819
It's testing me. It's making me do some physical

02:27:59.819 --> 02:28:03.799
things. getting good exercise in and you know

02:28:03.799 --> 02:28:05.700
that we can be alone and enjoy something together

02:28:05.700 --> 02:28:09.959
not tied to our professions um so those have

02:28:09.959 --> 02:28:14.079
been the two probably the biggest things uh trying

02:28:14.079 --> 02:28:16.200
to get back to the gym which has not been easy

02:28:16.200 --> 02:28:19.020
but i'm committing myself to getting back to

02:28:19.020 --> 02:28:21.860
that a little more to decompress and and feel

02:28:21.860 --> 02:28:25.340
a little better about myself and um and really

02:28:25.340 --> 02:28:28.040
that's that's kind of it you know that those

02:28:28.040 --> 02:28:33.139
are my Those are my keys right now. Very fortunate.

02:28:34.379 --> 02:28:36.340
Brilliant. I'm sure she's next to you wondering

02:28:36.340 --> 02:28:38.120
why this conversation is taking two and a half

02:28:38.120 --> 02:28:40.159
hours. So let's give you the final question.

02:28:40.440 --> 02:28:43.260
So people listening, where can they find you

02:28:43.260 --> 02:28:45.899
and On Scene Training? We're on all the social

02:28:45.899 --> 02:28:51.139
medias, on Instagram and Facebook. I don't use

02:28:51.139 --> 02:28:52.979
X that much because I just don't think about

02:28:52.979 --> 02:28:56.239
it that often. But LinkedIn, you can find me

02:28:56.239 --> 02:29:01.129
on there. On -scene training is just www .onscentraining

02:29:01.129 --> 02:29:06.110
.com. And we're very fortunate. You can reach

02:29:06.110 --> 02:29:08.729
us at any of those places. I put up a lot of

02:29:08.729 --> 02:29:12.729
stuff on our social media when I can and share

02:29:12.729 --> 02:29:14.809
a lot of other people's that I think is really

02:29:14.809 --> 02:29:16.729
good stuff and certainly give them all the credit.

02:29:17.590 --> 02:29:22.030
But, yeah, that's it. We're at a lot of the conferences.

02:29:22.389 --> 02:29:24.850
In fact, I have a big gang of my guys right now

02:29:24.850 --> 02:29:26.469
at the Jimmy Ellis Conference in Pittsburgh.

02:29:27.189 --> 02:29:29.309
They're doing Red Under Fire basically stuff

02:29:29.309 --> 02:29:34.209
this weekend. And we're doing an awful, we're

02:29:34.209 --> 02:29:37.090
going to be pretty solid. And you can find us

02:29:37.090 --> 02:29:39.670
at the Joey Dean Memorial Foundation conferences

02:29:39.670 --> 02:29:42.670
the first week. I believe it's like the 6th,

02:29:42.790 --> 02:29:45.190
7th, 8th, something like that in November in

02:29:45.190 --> 02:29:47.770
Long Island. For any fireman who wants to get

02:29:47.770 --> 02:29:50.329
hands -on training and rub elbows with some of

02:29:50.329 --> 02:29:53.149
the greatest people I've ever met, that's a good

02:29:53.149 --> 02:29:55.989
one. And it's very inexpensive considering. you

02:29:55.989 --> 02:29:58.350
can get yourself there hotels aren't terrible

02:29:58.350 --> 02:30:01.129
and i think the courses for the weekend are maybe

02:30:01.129 --> 02:30:05.510
350 for a whole weekend so it's really well done

02:30:05.510 --> 02:30:08.170
and all about that foundation and then we'll

02:30:08.170 --> 02:30:11.129
do it again in houston in uh i'm sure it'll be

02:30:11.129 --> 02:30:16.540
march or somewhere in there yep Fantastic. Well,

02:30:16.659 --> 02:30:18.360
I want to thank you again. We've, as I said,

02:30:18.399 --> 02:30:20.059
talked for two and a half hours. I could talk

02:30:20.059 --> 02:30:22.459
for another two and a half hours. It's such a

02:30:22.459 --> 02:30:25.399
powerful perspective. I mean, I spent a very

02:30:25.399 --> 02:30:27.940
short career in the fire service, 14 years, but

02:30:27.940 --> 02:30:31.100
yours, as you said, from 14 years old to now,

02:30:31.260 --> 02:30:33.159
I mean, that's a hell of a career and you've

02:30:33.159 --> 02:30:35.459
got the volunteer and the career perspective.

02:30:35.780 --> 02:30:38.819
So I want to thank you so much for yet again,

02:30:38.920 --> 02:30:41.020
coming on the Behind the Shield podcast, being

02:30:41.020 --> 02:30:44.170
so generous with your time. And yeah. Thank you.

02:30:44.270 --> 02:30:47.049
It's an absolute honor to be back with you. And,

02:30:47.049 --> 02:30:49.790
you know, I really admire everything you've done

02:30:49.790 --> 02:30:53.030
and what you continue to do. Thank you for all

02:30:53.030 --> 02:30:53.329
the things.