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with joel totoro and wes barnett welcome to the
behind the shield podcast as always my name is
james geering and this week it is my absolute
honor to welcome on the show retired veteran
firefighter chief and the man behind on scene
training aaron heller Now, in this second conversation,
we discuss a host of topics from the evolution
of the fire helmet, PFAS, vetting safe and realistic
fire training, the 24 -72 firefighter work schedule,
the recruitment crisis, volunteerism, and so
much more. Now, before we get to this incredible
conversation, as I say every week, please just
take a moment. Go to whichever app you listen
to this on. Subscribe to the show. Leave feedback
and leave a rating. Every single five -star rating
truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making
it easier for others to find. And this is a free
library of well over 1 ,000 episodes now. So
all I ask in return is that you help share these
incredible men and women's stories so I can get
them to every single person on planet Earth who
needs to hear them. So with that being said...
I welcome back onto the show, Aaron Heller. Enjoy.
Aaron, I want to start by saying thank you so,
so much for coming back onto the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Well, thank you for having me
back. It's always an honor to be asked to be
on any of these types of things, but certainly
Behind the Shield means a lot to me. Just seeing
the work you do and all the people you've had,
it's nice to be a small fish in that really,
really big pond. Yeah, well, I mean, I am too,
and I'm the host, so there we go. All right.
Well, just as a kind of, I guess, an initial
icebreaker, you were just at FRI yesterday. Talk
to me about your experience presenting, but also
some of the classes that you actually took as
well. So, yeah, I've been very fortunate. The
Fiero group asked me to come in and speak on
kind of in their platform. They had a full day
pre -con session. And so I was one of four in
the morning who spoke. Literally the only one
who didn't have PhD behind my name. I explained
to him I had BS behind my name and take it as
you wish. But it was really interesting. They
are a group who predominantly deals with PPE
and also station design. They're very large into
that. Nonprofit group, 501C3. The head of it,
Chief Tutterow, is retired from Charlotte, North
Carolina Fire Department. Great people. And I've
been going to their conference in Greenville
every February or March for the last several
years. And last year or the year before was my
first time presenting there. But it's all about
learning about our PPE and learning about what's
going on with the NFPA stuff, what's going on
with innovations and changes. And of course,
what are our big concerns, right? PFAS is the
big concern. The change in the NFPA 1970 standard
is a big concern. And what research is being
done? So I had the opportunity to listen to,
before I went on in the morning, it was Dr. Brian
Orman from NC State, who is a textile guy who
is just, and again, these are really good people
who are very, very bright. Kind of goes without
saying, but they're doing this for the right
reasons. They're doing their research and really
trying to improve things for us. And I look at
it as myself as being an old old guy in the fire
service. Right. I got I'm in my 41st year overall
since I was a junior fireman. And to listen to
the innovation and the changes and the stuff
that they've seen and where they see us going.
It's been pretty cool. So Dr. Orman spoke quite
a bit about the testing procedures, talked a
lot about the new 1970, what effects we're going
to see in the gear itself, in our PPE, with the
removal of PFAS and the treatments that we were
used to. So his was very interesting, showing
different playing tests, showing the absorption
tests that they do. with different oils and so
forth and water and i've seen this a couple times
but to see it again and a little more updated
was interesting so that was that was one um dr
stapleton heather stapleton from duke university
spoke primarily on the health effects and and
of pfos and again the additives in our that were
in our gear for the most part and she was very
very good And they have to tread lightly with
all the litigation going on right now. You can
tell that they're dancing a little bit because
they can only be so committal. And as they say,
there's still a lot of research and testing that
must be done because with different parts of
the country, they're seeing different results.
And I think that's very interesting. So she really
captured my attention. A couple of the people
in the audience had asked her, and the moderator
of the program, Ron Cooley, asked her, can you
definitively say it's our gear? Can you say that
the PFAS in our gear is what is giving us cancer?
And, you know, that's the million -dollar question,
right? The union pushed it hard. The IAFF pushed
it hard. And I understand why. Because obviously
our cancer rates are up. And when you do your
blood work, and I know you just posted yours
the other day, and it's frightening. It is frightening
when we see where our PFAS levels are. But one
of the things that I took from her answer was
one of the big concerns they have is drinking
water and your region. And she put up a map,
which was graphed out with the levels of PFAS
that they have found. not the exact levels, but
whether it was high or low and so forth, of PFAS
in drinking water around the country. And man,
that's an eye -opener. Now, as she said, this
map isn't 100 % on the dot because not everywhere
has truly been tested as strongly as some places.
So Wyoming may not have been tested. nearly as
hard as Orlando or as New Jersey or as LA or
somewhere like that. So I think maybe they still
have some work to do on that. But it was very
interesting. And do we have reason to be afraid?
Damn right we do. We absolutely do. But we can
delve into this as we go through this conversation
because it's way more than just what's in our
turnout. We have to take a little bit of responsibility
as members of the fire service as well. And believe
me, I'm 100 % guilty of this as anybody. So I
think it goes on from there. And the next speaker
that spoke before me was Dr. Kessler from UL
and through Fire Safety Research Institute. And
again, very good explaining their tests, explaining
their... their ev tests which i thought it is
probably the biggest thing people are asking
about now is you know what happens when an ev
burns what what's getting on my gear what could
i possibly uh breathe in what could i ingest
what you know all those questions and every internet
guru has answers and they're all teaching an
ev class now with with probably second third
and fourth hand facts so it was very interesting
to see that ul's doing the the scientific work
for this for us and on our behalf. He also spoke
about SCBAs. They've been looking at SCBA masks
and actually came out with a memo on folks who
are still using SCBA masks that meet the older
standards and not the newest standard and the
problems with that and the fact that they're
finding that they craze and bubble and fail at
much lower temperatures than new stuff. It was
very informative. And I commend Fiero for being
a part of this. And really, I think they're driving
the bus. I really do. I think we touched on this
in our first conversation, but how much research
was done to show that the American firefighter
helmet from the 1930s is still technologically
superior to any other helmet on the planet? If
we're going to talk about science and trust the
science, let's throw that into there as well.
I know. And we are we are. It's funny, I was
writing a writing a little chapter for a friend
of mine who's writing a book based on on my chapter
is supposed to be on organizational change. And
so I was writing it today, actually, while my
wife was having a medical procedure done. I was
in the waiting room and did a few paragraphs
of that. And, you know, the old the old 200 years
of tradition unimpeded by progress now maybe
worth 250 years. The country's turning 250 next
year, so we'll have a wrestling match in front
of the UFC fight in front of the White House
for that, which will be interesting. And then
we'll go to the new ballroom for appearances.
Exactly. But I'm certainly going to watch. I
mean, it's just history in the making. But, yeah,
so it's funny you say that because one of the
gentlemen who's very, very involved with the
Fiero Group. with the NFPA committees on 1970
and several others, is a gentleman named Jeff
Stull. He has a long history in the Coast Guard,
and he's very, very well -spoken and well -studied
and done a lot of good, I think, for the emergency
services and what he does. And at the last Fiero
conference in, I guess it was February or March,
he actually put out a small survey regarding
our our helmets and our eye protection in our
helmets um so yeah i mean there it's something
to look at you know the euro helmet nobody wants
i don't want it honest to god i know it's safer
for me from what everybody tells me i'll probably
be cut dead if i was wearing it but um but it's
true it's it again we all have to choose our
poison i suppose well my thing is it doesn't
have to be the euro helmet Make an American helmet.
Just make it good. I mean, that bailout that
went viral a couple of weeks ago, the guy, you
know, the backdraft in the second floor and he's
kind of lay sideways on the ladder. What's the
first thing that fell off? His helmet. Now he's
two stories up. If he slips head first, he's
done. If he had a European helmet on, it would
still be on his head. So we cannot deny the fact
that they absorb carcinogens in the leather ones.
I mean, I wore the West Coast helmet, which was
smaller. And even coming back to the East Coast
with the bigger one, I was catching that damn
thing on everything. And then you think about
the weight of it and all these other things.
So that's fine. Don't don't take the European
one then. But for the love of God, come up with
something better and call it American, at least.
But this whole this is tradition is bullshit.
And I'm sure we talk about the first time. It's
not. It's a costume. It's history. History and
tradition are two very different things. Tradition.
is is leadership and courage and service and
camaraderie that is the history excuse me the
the culture the tradition of the fire service
you know if we're all about you know what we
look like then take off your pack put three quarter
length boots on you're not allowed to get on
an engine go find a horse drag some you know
steamer over there and go put it out while you're
sucking air through your beard Otherwise, shut
the fuck up about this whole it's history thing.
You want your tick. Leave the tick behind if
you're not worried about innovation. So I don't
know what our obsession is with the helmet when
it's the last piece of equipment that we refuse
to change. But they're shit because 14 years
I wore them myself. They are terrible. And what
do we wear in special ops? A different helmet.
What do we wear in extrication teams? A different
helmet. You know what I mean? So all it is, is
a motorbike helmet. If you own a motorbike, it's
the same kind of helmet. You have no problem
wearing that. So my thing is American fire service.
If you have such an issue with something that's
come from another country because your ego hurts
too much, then invent your own. But for the love
of God, can we please improve it? I think they
are improved there. Well, I know there are some
companies who are working pretty hard at it.
It's kind of interesting because if you look
and you start scrolling social media. And I have
some friends that are involved in this, and I
don't officially take a real strong public opinion
either way on it, but there's a lot of companies
out there who are now refurbishing helmets, right?
And they do very good work. You look at the helmet,
and it's cleaned up nicely, and it's got a better
fit, more comfort, all that. But they've certainly
changed the dynamics of that helmet as far as
its safety components go. uh you know some of
the suspensions have been changed you don't you
don't have uh ratchet systems in them a lot of
them are removed a lot of them are actually cutting
their brims down a little bit in the back so
you you get a little more movement in your neck
and your head i guess is the reason but now if
we were to get hurt wearing that helmet where
do we stand you know i don't know because pretty
sure that nfpa sticker isn't isn't going to matter
at that point so It's certainly something. I
know I've worked with one company, one manufacturer,
who has come out with two new styles, although
they are traditional looking. The fit rides a
little bit lower down, but it's still a traditional
looking helmet. Now, it's not leather. It's their
form of composite and so forth. But the research
is there. It shouldn't be that hard to figure
these things out. It really shouldn't. and and
our gear is coming really a long long way uh
you know the long way from the you know the duck
coat duck coats and and red ball gloves you know
and hip boots so it's uh it is the culture change
that we need to we always need to address it
and and you can't when you when you're trying
to move the culture a bit you can't do it in
everybody jump in the deep end at one time and
and i think that you need to gradually move to
that to avoid the shock and awe so to speak but
then again if you shock and awe and that's it
this is what you're going to do well you conform
or you don't so i guess there's there's two sides
to that coin i kind of like easing into things
well my thing is this if we're going to talk
about pfast in our gear which we should because
as i for people listening i posted my blood tests
after cambiotics paid for me to have a pfast
test and all my levels were off the chart You
know, then we also have to have a conversation
about every other element of our PPE that's detrimental.
So a leather sponge that sits on our head, a
leather radio strap that goes right across our
throat and the thyroid area. These are also things
that we need to address. So if you can't decontaminate
your helmet or if we're looking at musculoskeletal
injuries or just simply the ability to crawl
through a space after a collapse. You know, we
need to be looking at those as well. You can't
say, oh, it's PFAS and join a lawsuit and then
throw a freaking leather helmet on your head.
That's just ridiculous. Yeah. Well, and I don't
know if you know, I don't recall if he was on
your show or not, but Tony Gillen. Yes. So, you
know, his helmet saved his life. His helmet in
a training incident. Had he not had the full
suspension and everything in that helmet, his
doctor told him. Yep. You were, you know, basically
he was almost paralyzed from, from a Halligan
falling off the roof and getting, um, had he
not been wearing that helmet that met this, met
the standard and, and, you know, I guess God
looking over him as well, he would have been
paralyzed. Um, so it makes you certainly, it
makes you think, I can tell you, I wear a helmet
when I do a lot of the flashover training. Um,
we're doing a lot of that for one of the companies
that we work with. And, um, It is not the standard.
It's an old Morning Pride Bend 2 that I sent
up to Capital City Industries, had him refurbish.
It's got a much different liner in it, much different
suspension in it. It's lighter. It sits lower
on my head. It fits me perfectly. But I'm in
a scenario there where I wear that when I'm not
working ladders. I'm not in a position where
things are going to fall on my head, basically.
And a lot of guys I know in those burns are starting
to wear the West Coast -style helmet or even
the Philly -style helmets, you know, the little
turtle shells, because they're lighter and on
the training ground at the end of a long day,
if you're wearing a leather helmet for a long
time, you've taken a beating. And we can't wear
leathers in some of these training facilities
we're working in now because it'll just destroy
that helmet. Yeah. Well, you just underlined
two reasons why maybe the innovations have to
progress. Like I've always said, the Navy SEALs
don't wear tin helmets for a reason. You know
what I mean? They're not worried about how they
look. They're worried about if they can kill
bin Laden or not. So progressing a little bit
away from that, back to the PFAS conversation,
I just interviewed Sean Bounds, one of the health
and wellness chief at DC Fire. Amazing conversation.
But he was talking about a really interesting
point. is they obviously want to get away from
the gear that has PFAS in, but he was saying
that the danger is trying to rush it so much
that the technology isn't there. So I'm all about
innovation, but the example I used with him was
the vaccine during COVID. Yes, it would be fantastic
to truly have something that would stop the spread
and stop you yourself from getting this particular
disease, but that wasn't what happened. They
rushed it through and it ended up being... nowhere
near as effective as they told us initially.
And he was saying that some of the demos on the
PFAS -free gear that they developed up to this
point, the absorption rate was a lot more. And
you imagine if you're absorbing hydrocarbons,
I think they did one demo and the firefighter
went up like a Christmas tree. So not something
I witnessed, secondhand information, but obviously,
Sean. was there in these conversations. So I
think this is the other thing that we do have
to be careful. And the other side as well is
that not to be duped by the chemical companies
who change one molecule and call it something
else and you've got the same shit in your gear
still. So those are two kind of interesting things
that I've heard out of this PFAS conversation
so far. And he's absolutely right. From all the
stuff that I've seen and I've had the opportunity
to work with. at least one of the manufacturers
very closely uh and and seeing the products from
the other manufacturers very closely um he's
not wrong the the fact that when you take a a
you take that material and you remove the pfas
so you're removing what we've been coating it
with so to speak right basically they're coatings
so when we remove that the gear what I guess
the best way to put it, Dr. Orman put it very
clearly. One of the times I heard him speak earlier
was, you know, be careful of the devil that you're
about to dance with. We knew the one we were
dancing with. The next one, we don't know enough
about it. In my opinion, we really don't. And
just like you said, could they change one or
two molecules here and there? And maybe it's
not necessarily better. It's not PFAS anymore,
which we know is bad, but maybe it could be something
else down the road. You're right about the absorption.
The other issue for fire departments is going
to be your gear is not going to hold up. It's
just not. And that was spoken about yesterday
quite a bit. Nobody can tell you the straight
number. So when I retired from the job, I worked
in a very busy place. Guys are putting on their
gear a lot in a day. And it takes a beating.
And they go to quite a few fires and extrications
and just a lot of runs. So they're wearing it
quite a bit. That gear. My guess, and again,
just an educated guess. I don't have any facts.
I don't have research to back myself up. But
what I'm seeing is that what we wanted to be
10 -year gear and what we assumed would be 10
-year gear, I think you're looking at three to
five -year gear. And talking to my friends who
are selling gear, that's what they're seeing.
They're seeing that in that three on, gear that's
been worn often and laundered properly often
is going to start to fail. So now it affects
everything down the road. It affects budgets.
It affects staffing levels. And one of the union
guys spoke about this yesterday at the conference.
If I have to make a decision between can we get
a bigger raise or can we get our second set of
gear, I have a dilemma as a union guy. I now
have a dilemma. Do they have to cut money out
of this to pay for this? So I think it's going
to affect the fire service more than we realize
and more than the common firefighter understands.
And these prices aren't going down. They're all
going up 15%, 20 % or whatever it is. It's a
problem. And this is generational. This is not
going to end now. We're at the tip of the iceberg
with PFAS. Now we're going to move forward. You
talked about the saturation of the gear. You're
talking about the hydrocarbons that are being
sucked into the gear. And can we get it decon?
We can do that if we're doing it the proper way.
And then again, you look at a small place like
where I volunteer now since I retired, and they're
not doing many runs. They're going to maybe do
300, 400, 500 runs in a year. How many times
am I actually going to put that gear on? That
gear is going to last much, much longer than
a busy ghetto city fire department. These are
all things that are going to affect it. The biggest
thing, it's the moisture barriers. It's absolutely
the moisture barriers. And that's where we are.
I really like the idea. I don't know if they
call them blue gear or not. I forgot that right.
I remember John Spira talking a long time ago
that he was developing one, but I don't know
if they ever materialized, but also having a
workout set of gear. hopefully a fraction of
the price of real bunker gear, simulates the
heat encapsulation, you know, the inability to
move as well, but it's not ever going to a fire.
So a lot cheaper, you don't need to have that,
you know, heat resistance at all, but just kind
of like a bulky, you know, jacket and pants.
So you can simulate, you know, the intensity,
the heat. I mean, I've always worked in California
or Florida. So today it's 106 outside. So, you
know, you have to be doing works and, you know,
you have to work out in gear. Otherwise you would
just die. You know, even in rehab, you can't
cool down. So, you know, I really like that,
too, because that removes not only as you're
talking about the use, because I wore the hell
out of mine working out because I had departments
where I ran a lot of fire and departments that
in five years barely even saw a flame. So, you
know, either way, I'm putting my gear on, whether
it's just a. pull sleds and carry sandbags around
the back or i'm putting it on for a commercial
fire in anaheim well and the other thing is you
got to spec your gear for what you're going to
do and what you're what you're going to face
so you know i see a lot of these these gear salesmen
quote unquote who are really just order takers
and they're they're selling what they can sell
they they tell you buy this spec and this is
a great spec for you and maybe it's because they
got lots of that material and they can make good
money on it Maybe it's because it's all they
know. And, well, it's just easier than having
to rewrite specs for every little department
that's buying four and five and ten sets of gear
at a time. But you've got to build your gear
based on you, on your department. And I think
that's something that slips. I know my own department,
my volunteer department, I don't know that anybody
field tested anything or did anything of that
nature. But you've got to field test. You've
got to make sure it works for you. I got to do
some consulting work recently in a department
in the mid -Atlantic who's getting ready to buy
a ton of gear. And we sat down and we went over
specs and we discussed new hood designs and so
forth. And they are setting it up for them and
for the long haul and for their members' health
and safety. And their union's involved. Their
fire chief is really, really good about it. She's
been very open to change and to listening to
her members. more so than dictating, hey, I'm
the fire chief. This is what I want. So I think
a lot of it goes into that as well. But again,
it goes back to the breathability. It goes back
into the thermal protective properties that you
need. I know some departments now or some manufacturers
who are pushing out these breathable, it's a
much breathable gear, right? It lets the heat
out much easier. Well, how much does it let the
heat in? Did a burn in Rhode Island the other
day for a department, and it was ungodly. We
probably shouldn't have even done it. It was
so damn hot. Heat index of 110, and we were doing
a break -in burn for a new training facility.
And after two burns, I was done. Whether I'm
in shape, out of shape, or whatever, it didn't
matter. Even the young kids who were rock star
CrossFitters were done. But there was a guy who
was field testing a brand new set of gear that
that mid -Atlantic area is trying out. And this
was for the military. And I said to him, why
don't you get up front in the front of the burn
can with me? And I'm wearing an older set. It's
a two -year -old set of Morning Pride, but it
was designed very, very well for what I do. It's
an excellent spec. And he was wearing a different
manufacturer. And I said, you want to field test
it? This is how you field test it. Get up in
here with me and let's see how you feel with
it. And literally a couple minutes into the burn,
I asked him, you know, you all right? Yeah, yeah,
I'm all right. Okay. We go back outside afterwards
and he's like, holy crap, I got so much hotter
in this gear than I did in my other spec. Well,
maybe that should tell you right there that,
you know what, this might not be the right spec
for you guys. And for their application, if you
got that hot in what we were doing, what you
would be required to do on the real job. not
even structural, but other things that this organization
is tasked with, that probably ain't the answer.
So this could affect firefighter health and safety
down the road for a long time, a long time. And
it's a huge investment. You're talking what,
for a set of gear now head to toe, you're anywhere
from $5 ,000, $6 ,000 when it's all said and
done. Yeah, exactly. It's funny you say that
because my Anaheim gear was by far my favorite.
And I definitely made entry in some barn burners
in that. And I remember the next department,
Orange County, I forget, but it was a different
manufacturer, definitely a different style. And
I remember exactly that. Less hot fires certainly
felt hotter. And I never even thought about that.
Different manufacturer, different specs. But
yeah, I mean, if I could keep that one, so I
have got them actually, they're in my garage,
but if I could have had them my whole career,
I would have been so much happier. So yeah, that
does make a lot of sense. What about from station
design before we kind of progress to your transition
and all things, you know, modern day fire service,
what are some of the exciting innovations that
you're seeing as far as being able to design
a station from, you know, ground zero up? So
I haven't been real deeply involved in it, but
I certainly am following it. And I looked yesterday.
They had some really cool schematics and plans
of a bunch of different firehouses that have
been built around the country. And I was kind
of checking them out at the break. But some of
the I think the things that we're seeing is obviously
the old traditional firehouses are really a thing
of the past. We now have bunker gear rooms. So
our gear isn't on racks. in the middle of the
engine room like it used to be, not getting the
carbon, not getting all the diesel exhaust, not
getting the sunlight, not getting the bad UV
that's going to degregate our gear so quickly,
which, again, without PFAS coatings on that gear,
UV is certainly going to affect it more. You're
going to see the fading, and you're going to
see it wearing more. Those fibers are going to
take a beating. So I think the lighting changes
are something. Obviously, the exhaust systems
that are being put in these buildings are different,
decon facilities, even the station alerting systems.
They were starting to change those 10, 15, 20
years ago, where you would go from a softer on
up to a higher pitch sound and lighting and so
forth. And I always thought it was cool, but
it was so goddamn expensive that I don't know
that a lot of people were able to afford to make
those changes. But you're seeing a lot more of
that innovation now. I can tell you the thing
that I think that, again, this is an old guy's
point of view, but the fact that we have individual
bunk rooms for everybody has changed the culture
in the firehouse. And I don't necessarily think
it's in a good way. I really don't. Not that
I want to listen to some bastard snoring all
night or a CPAP machine or whatever else is going
on or, you know, smell everybody that, you know.
what they had for dinner. Can you hear that in
the background? I can. Is that the Nazis coming?
Yeah. So I am in Surf City, New Jersey, speaking
of firehouses, on vacation on Long Beach Island.
And our house is directly across from the volunteer
firehouse here. So apparently they've got one.
So it'll stop, I think, three to five blasts,
and that's it. It's all good. It just adds character
to the conversation. But it does take me back
to the World War II footage, I've got to say.
Yeah, yeah. You know, that was a big deal around
us. Everybody had a siren or a horn, all the
volunteer fire departments around us. And it
was funny because oftentimes in certain towns,
like the town I grew up in in New Egypt, our
fire siren would blow. Like, I think it was five
or eight times. And the volunteer first aid and
ambulance squad siren would blow like three times.
So it wasn't the same. So you could listen to
how many times it went and you would know who
had the run because this was a time where not
everybody had pagers and all that. And they would
all just respond to the firehouse. So for here,
it's kind of interesting because being a shore
town and the population is way up with tourists.
it gives everybody a little bit of a warning
that, hey, there's guys going to be coming in
and trucks going out and be heads up on the street.
So I guess maybe that's the theory still. I want
to go back to individual dorms. So while we're
on this topic, I know that we talked about this
when we last sat down. Yeah. One of the things
that I find crazy. is in areas that aren't remote,
where obviously volunteer fire services make
complete sense. You're in rural wherever, you
know, the population of, you know, 127, especially
in the Northeast where you have, as you mentioned,
heavily populated tourist destinations, you know,
suburban sprawling neighborhoods. To me, volunteerism
is incredible, but this is also a profession
where in an ideal world, you have a fully staffed
career. that responds immediately, not when they
finish their mechanics job, got in their car,
gone to the station, grabbed their gear and then
go to the fire. So what is your perspective on
transitioning some of these busy suburban volunteer
stations or departments into career and giving
these men and women the financial support and
the ability to actually make a profession out
of it? It's way overdue. Number one, I think
that there should... there's going to be more
and more lawsuits. And there probably should
be. And I know this will piss off some people
that I say this because I've been a volunteer
at FART since I was a 14 -year -old kid. And
when I retired from the job, I asked the volunteer
fire chief where I live, you know, in the town
I grew up in. I actually live in the next town
over now. But I said, Rick, I'd love to hang
my gear back up and I'd love to respond again
as a volunteer. I can't make everything. I live
a ways away, so I'm going to be making the third
truck or whatever. If you do duty crews, I'll
come down and ride. But now they have a combination
department. When I was there as a commissioner
many years ago, I really pushed hard that we
at least have a day crew. And I don't see the
total need for a night paid crew, but they sure
as hell could be putting people in there doing
duty crews and making sure they're staffing.
And when you can't staff. then it's time to hire
and and it these people that are that are skirting
this issue and and i understand company pride
and i and i get it but jesus christ if it's your
family that's trapped on the third floor of that
house and you know the smoke is pushing i'm not
i don't have the time for you to wait you know
again to respond from home and after you know
get there safely which a lot of them don't and
it just doesn't make sense now you know I got
a buddy that lives out in the middle of Idaho
in the Rocky Mountains. They're never going to
have a career fire department where he lives.
It's a massive area. It's mostly forest. It's
a small town. Totally get it. But when you choose
to live there, you make that choice, right? You
make that choice that your sheriff's department
is only so big and they can only do so much for
you and your fire department can only do so much
for you. But when you're in populated areas,
you look at Long Island. right you look at north
jersey and all of new jersey really and uh most
of these places the taxes that people are paying
are exorbitant and the services they're getting
if they knew the true services they're getting
and it's not to slight the volunteers because
there's some damn fine volunteer firemen you
know guys who i would rather go to fires with
with some of these volunteers than some of the
people i work with and then that's so it's no
slight to the volunteers but it doesn't compare
And they're being cheated. And we're rolling
the dice on their lives. That's what we're doing.
So even if we were paying per diems or we were
putting guys up on duty crews in the firehouses,
some of them are starting to go to live -in programs.
I know there's several of them in Maryland and
Pennsylvania and I think even here in Jersey.
A couple of them on the Jersey Shore are starting
to do that. Do it, man. Make the attempt and
let's progress. But if you're not going to staff
and you're not going to support them, you're
rolling the dice, man, and you can't trust it.
Like where I'm at right now, I can look out this
window and see just in my view probably 10 multimillion
-dollar homes that have been built here in the
last five years that are loaded with tourists,
right, that are Airbnb rental. I'm sitting in
a rental that my wife and I rent. It's ridiculous.
They're not getting the service they deserve.
There's no way in hell they are. And we as a
fire service, if we're not going to eat a little
bit of pride, push a little ego back down and
do the right thing. And we can blame the town
administrators. We can blame the government all
we want. And that's what we do. That's what the
union does. That's what we all do. Bottom line
is, if we're not willing to bring the problem
to the forefront and say to them. Our response
times aren't as good as what they should be,
right? This is a pretty good volunteer fire department
from everything I can see. They're getting out
the door normally in that probably four to five
minute range. For volunteers, that ain't bad,
right? But coming from the firehouse I worked
in where the guys would run through there, slide
that pole, get on the rig, and be out the door
in a minute to a minute and a half? Well, three
to four minute difference makes a hell of a difference.
It's time for us to bear our souls a little bit,
pull our skeleton out of the closet, admit that,
hey, we're not doing as good a job as we could.
You as a town or a city administration need to
address this, and let's come up with an answer
to it together. But if we're not willing to tell
them there's a problem, even if they know there
is, they're not going to just offer it up. It's
just not going to happen, at least not in my
experience. Yeah. And this, I mean, I agree completely,
even from the career side, which, you know, we
talked about last time we spoke, but you know,
the, the 24 72 that now is really starting to
take hold in Florida. That comes out the same
thing. Yeah. But I mean, you know, this whole
thing of like, we're okay. You know, and I did
a presentation a couple of times. I don't normally
speak. I'm not a public speaker at all, but when
I've done it, there's a slide that says whose
fault is it? And there's a ladder. And the point
is, it's all of us. Whether you're the firefighter,
whether you're the chief, whether you're the
city administrator, whether you're the union,
none of us have done a good job telling the public
what we do, where we are effective, and then
where the shortcomings are. And I think this
volunteer conversation, it's not a smite to the
volunteers. It's the opposite. It's supporting
them. You know, having a career force of the
people, like you said, that were, you know, better
than some of the career firefighters that you
work with, you know, having a bar. So that we
avoid some of these tragedies with volunteer
firefighters that, you know, just are not in
the physical shape to be doing this job. Let's
be honest. There's an issue there. And then the
delivery of service, because, I mean, there's
an easy comparison. Do you have a volunteer police
force? Then why not? You know what I mean? That's
it. Mic drop. So, of course, you know, when you're.
Please, please. Tradition, James. It goes right
back to tradition. Yeah. Yeah. If my teenager
is bleeding to death in an overturned car, or
as you said, my young child is stuck in the attic
during a structure fire, do I want those people
to go from the mechanic shop to the station,
grab their gear, fire up the rig, hope that the
air brakes release because they drained because
they haven't been maintained properly, and finally
pull out the station to a charred out home or
an expired teenager? Or do I want a group of
highly trained men and women? I mean, this is
my experience in my career, too. 60 seconds,
you know, you're dressed up on the rig. And then,
you know, by that point, your engineer obviously
isn't bunkering up and you're already out the
door. You know, so, yeah, I mean, it was always
we were always held to a high standard. So, you
know, it's a non -argument. If you're in somewhere
where you've got the tax base to support it,
which I would argue was probably most of New
Jersey. And this also applies to our incredible
ocean lifeguards that also should have this support.
Then if we're not prioritizing the incredible
life safety issue that they are the solution
to, then we've completely dropped the ball. And
like you said, that's not just the politicians.
It's all the way down, including the people that
we serve need to crack a book and find out what
we actually do and the impact of our job and
the downside of the volunteer fire service. But
this is a beautiful opportunity to move some
of the volunteer areas that are so... densely
populated now into the career field. And like
you said, using volunteerism to support that,
but having a core group of career men and women
that do respond the moment the call hits. Yeah,
I agree. I really do agree. And there's some
places where the volunteers are still just crushing
it. They are, in my opinion, they are the oddballs
in reality. But a great example, I can tell you,
we do a ton of training in Louisiana. And it's
weird, right? On -scene training has been around
for 20 years, over 20 years. And you always find,
I think every training group has an area that
people take to them and they do well with that
group. And then word spreads and it just goes.
And we've become that in South Louisiana, which
is totally weird for a company that's owned by
a guy from New Jersey, right? To the point where
my son moved to Thibodeau, Louisiana and is now
on the job in Baton Rouge. But that's a great
example. So that town of Thibodeau, it's a small
city south of New Orleans, about 45 minutes to
an hour south. They are so deep in tradition.
And I mean, the history of that place and the
love of their tradition and the love of their
fire service is like I've never seen anywhere
in the world. All the travels I've been to, I
just never experienced it like these guys. And
their dedication to training, their dedication
to the job, their dedication to their community.
is truly second to none. And I just, I know it
sounds like I'm gushing over these guys and they
have their flaws and they have their problems
and they have their inner battles like all of
us. But man, they are the one place that I watch
do it totally different than the rest of us.
So the only ones who go to the firehouse are
the chauffeurs or the engineer or whatever driver
operator picks up a rig and everybody else is
kind of an all y 'all where they're all riding
POV to the scene. And everybody meets there.
The rig pulls up. They make the hookups. They
do their stretches. It's pretty unbelievable
to watch them operate, and they do a job as good
as most career departments I've seen. But they're
the anomaly, truly the anomaly, because they
just push themselves so goddang hard. And I look
at my own department, and I go, we're not as
good as they are. We're just not in my volunteer
department. We could be better. And just have
to face the facts of where we're falling down
and where we need to be better. I know it's easy
and it sounds like utopian thinking, but God
damn, if you got the will, it's not that hard.
But it's having the will to take the first step.
And man, taking that first step, sometimes you
need a foot in your ass to do it. And you don't
want it to be when the kid is, like you said,
bleeding out on the side of the road or trapped
upstairs. and now oh we should have we should
have been better we should have done better and
we're going to work on that try explaining that
to a family right it's it's just like what we
see on the news every day when you see somebody
who was murdered and they say crime's not really
that bad well maybe it ain't that bad but sure
as hell is that a family of the kid who just
got killed so there's no excuse there really
isn't just you got to have a will maybe Well,
we take this conversation where you wish, but
I think that's when we can talk more about generational
differences. Yeah, no, we'll jump in that now.
I think just to parallel what you're talking
about. I mean, for almost nine years now, I've
been talking about the 24 -72. Now my understanding
and storytelling has grown with all the guests
that have brought. all this information. And
now, you know, we're at the beginning of a revolution
here in Florida. And I think, you know, it's
like Indiana Jones and the boulder, like you're
not going to get out of it now. It's happening.
But, you know, the number of years I was told,
oh, you know, that's ridiculous. Again, no, that's
utopia. I remember my first part -time job. That'll
never happen. Where's the money going to come
from? We can't even hire now. Everyone told me
every reason why it wouldn't work, but not a
fucking single person said, let's figure out
how we can make this work. Until more recently,
some of these fantastic departments like Boynton
Beach and Pasco County and Gainesville said,
hold my beer. Let's make this happen. You know,
and they developed in the meantime relationships
with their, you know, the unions, with their,
you know, the city and county council members.
And, you know, lo and behold, when they showed
them the money that would be saved as well, this
thing turned around. I think that's the problem
with the fire service, which we'll get to, you
know, with what we're going to talk about next
is. We love to say how it won't work. And I kind
of, you know, I, I call people out. I'm like,
well, what a second on your Instagram. You've
told me how fucking courageous you are. You've
got your mustache and your leather helmet and
you're doing your duck walk, spinning the hose
around or filming yourself in shorts, doing a,
you know, a door prop, real heroic stuff. Where's
your courage when it comes to standing up for
the things that really matter. delivery of service,
the ability to go home when you're supposed to
go home to your family. So this is where I think
we're starting to see a turn now is some of this,
you know, ego and narcissism that we've seen
on some of the fire influencers, you know, and
these loud mouths, you know, that I have to make
me want to throw up that are all about themselves.
It's me. I thought it was supposed to be for
them, but it's not. It's you and your Instagram
platform and your training, whatever it is. And
going back to, well, why the hell did you sign
up in the first place? It was for other people.
And those other people include your wife, husband,
children, and going back to them. So I think
that getting away from the narcissism and the
ego, and also, I'll be completely honest, the
fucking cowardice that I'm seeing in some of
our profession, and back to actually doing, simply
doing the right thing. Whether you're going and
saying, hey, these volunteers need to be paid.
Enough is enough. You have a tax base of this
many billion dollars, you know, or million dollars.
You know, this needs to change. Or, you know,
as we're going to get to, you know, let's put
this pride back in the fire service. Because
the reality is the last 20 years, a lot of our
air quotes leaders have completely fucked it
up to the point where you have a national recruitment
crisis. That's on them. Newsflash, if you were
in any sort of leadership position, union, fire,
city, county, and we are now at a point where
a lot of young people don't want to do this anymore,
that is an epic failure and it's on your shoulders.
So I'm excited that we're starting to see it
turn around with some of these initiatives. But
people have got to understand that they are responsible
for this decline and we need to do things differently.
You can't just beat your chest and say greatest
job in the world and not actually put any effort
into making it better. Yeah, and that's exactly
right. You know, I was blessed. I came on the
job working the Philly schedule. So this was
1990. When I was getting hired, I got offered
a job in Hamilton, New Jersey and Lakehurst Navy
Base where the Hindenburg crashed. And my dad
was a Navy guy. I was looking at going in the
Navy possibly because I just wasn't happy with
a lot of things. And I thought, well, maybe I'll
go into service. And he kind of talked me out
of that, even though he was in the service. Politically,
he did not think that it was a good idea. And
he was probably right because we went to Iraq
two years later. But I got offered both those
jobs within the same week. And Navy Lakers was
working that old military 24 -on, 24 -off, 24
-on, never -off type schedule. And you were getting
held 72 or 96 straight. and then you would get
maybe 24 off and then you get brought back in
and it was a crazy schedule and it was making
honest to god the starting salary at the time
was fifteen thousand one hundred dollars a year
right but hey we get great medical benefits is
what they told me and hamilton called me and
i tested for them and and they said uh you know
so i asked the commissioner who called me what's
the schedule and what's the pay he says it's
the philly schedule two 10 hour days two 14 hour
nights and then you're off for four days Oh,
I like that better. Four days off. That's great.
I can work my side gig. My parents own a flea
market. My mom still owns it at 90 years old,
almost 91 years old and still runs it. So I could
still work out there. Cool. And I was going to
get paid $23 ,000 a year. And I thought, hell
yeah, man, I'm going to make eight grand a year
more, work a better schedule. I immediately went
to that job and that's where I stayed until the
day I retired. And maybe. A third or halfway
through my career, we switched to 2472. Simply
because it was the same four platoon system.
But a lot of our guys who were traveling further
said, man, this 10s and 14s suck. I'm driving
up and back four times, you know, every week.
I could do this twice a week and, you know, get
my breaks. And at first I was like, man, I don't
know if I want to do that. Only three days off.
I like my four days off. Then I realized, wait,
if I work at 24, I've got probably a day to recover,
two days I can work a side gig, and then come
right back in rested, ready to go do what I got
to do. It was a no -brainer. So we did it. We
took everything we did back then. It was just,
we're going to do this on a test basis for 30
days or 60 days. I swear to God, every time we
did something, it was for the better, and it
never changed. triple A's to flat packs and minute
man's. This is the exact same way. We're gonna
try these for a month. See if you guys like it.
You know, so I was blessed to work in that in
that 24 72 schedule for the majority of my career.
And I I reluctantly say this, but I don't know
that I felt the kind of angst and other problems
that a lot of my peers felt. working 24 -48s
and other ships from around the country. You
know, I've got a lot of friends. We're on -scene
training. We've got like 30 people in our organization
and group. Most of them didn't work that schedule.
And I saw them going through a lot more shit
than I went through. And now, especially with
what you're doing and others are doing to cast
light on the importance of getting our sleep
and not being deprived. everything that goes
with it, that this schedule can afford you. Now
I look back at it and I go, I think the schedule
is one of the reasons that I was as successful
as I was when I was working. Not that I didn't
have my issues and my crap, but man, if I was
working that 24 -48, I might have been an even
bigger mess. And again, the union's got to fight.
the the firemen have to fight for themselves
they can't just eat the and say well this is
what we have to do you know i come from a town
where we fought the fight and we consolidated
an entire fire department we might not have done
it all right and and we've done some things there
that i think were total mistakes and we really
screwed some up but in in reality our people
came to bat and and said enough we're going to
do this the right way we're going to protect
our citizens better we want this And we made
some demands and we won some things. And some
things we won we might have lost in the end because
we weren't that smart. But you've got to take
a stand. And if you're not willing to take a
stand, as you said, you've got to man up or woman
up or whatever you want to call it. And it's
time. It's certainly time with the suicide rates,
with the illnesses that we're seeing, with all
the divorces that we see, right? All of these
things compounded. What's it going to take for
people to step up and go enough's enough? And
this is this messed up. We got to change it.
And I think the 24 -72 is a big, big part of
it. Well, it's funny, even with the PFAS conversation,
you notice how quickly unions jumped on that.
And I've always said, well, of course you. Of
course, you're going to jump on that because
you just point your finger at someone else. The
gear manufacturers, the phone manufacturers.
Now, is it a piece of the puzzle? Yeah, my blood
work shows that James Gearing is riddled with
PFAS. And I'm hoping for everyone listening,
Cambiotics is creating a probiotic that we are
hoping will remove PFAS from the human body.
And I'm going to be a guinea pig. And I hope
to be an evangelist for this and help the population.
And just as a side note, exactly. This is how,
you know. greater company is they sent me a thing
with the map for my home of ocala saying by the
way james this is how many times like you know
thousand times more pfas levels are in your area
too now we try and drink spring water but even
then does the bottle have pfas i don't know so
right regardless but and then again with you
know if we're talking innovation the individual
dorms If they are not managed properly, because
I think they're fantastic. I mean, why wake up
a different crew that doesn't need to go on the
call? But it has to be mandated by the lieutenant,
station commander, whatever it is. When you're
taking a nap, go into your room. Absolutely.
At night, go into your room. But the rest of
the time, communal areas. Because I agree, that
can be the death of a crew if you're just hiding
in your dorm. So that can be managed. you know
well as well but yes a lot of these innovations
you know i think are really important but going
to the cancer thing i was in my mind i got lost
and i'm circling around now in the cancer conversation
the one that they don't want to talk about is
that sleep deprivation shift work is a known
carcinogen right so we're talking about this
chemical that we've got on our body that you
know is is a new discovery that's absolutely
a piece of the puzzle but every third day We're
doing the very thing that causes cancer, that
causes weight gain, that depletes testosterone,
that causes infertility, that causes alcoholism,
that doesn't allow you to process trauma. All
these things are direct, scientifically proven
correlations. And we turn our head to that and
we go, oh, this is chemical in our gear. Yes,
there is. But let's look at the even bigger piece
of the puzzle. And by the way, the Northeast
has been working this shift. DC is one of them
as well for decades. And you're acting like this
is never going to happen. It's a unicorn fight
and rainbows. And for example, to put the blame
on the IFF, we have people working in departments
that work this shift that are not saying to the
rest of the membership, we need to get you to
where we are. So I think, you know, this is,
these are all little pieces of this puzzle. Well,
and again, I agree. Let's get rid of PFAS, but
PFAS is the low hanging fruit. That's absolutely
the low hanging fruit. That was an easy one.
The fact that Diane Cotter came up with the research,
did what she had to do, and made it a national
issue is fantastic and should be highly applauded
by the fire service and all of our families and
everybody affected, right? And anybody that's
drinking water anywhere where we've flowed foam
over the years, for Christ's sake, right? It's
the low -hanging fruit. There's so many other
things that we need to attack with it. It's got
to be multi -pronged. And going after DuPont
or Dow or whoever it is, going after gear manufacturers,
yeah, is it doable? Sure, it's doable, but it's
not the answer. It's a small piece of the answer.
So the other thing is we're the biggest freaking
hypocrites in the world, and myself included,
right? I was at FDIC and a bunch of guys said,
hey, let's go to the cigar bar, right? Well,
I don't smoke cigars. I get headaches from cigars.
Not that I don't like them because I did when
I was younger, but now it gives me a terrible
headache and sinus problem. So I don't go. But
I can walk by a cigar bar and see 50 firemen
sitting there smoking away, right? Now you're
going to tell me that that doesn't affect your
health, right? I like really good tequila. So
I will imbibe. Is that good for my health? No,
of course it's not, right? And sometimes it's
not in moderation over the years. So, you know
what I mean? We're our worst enemies, and we're
hypocrites about a lot of things. You know, oh,
it's the PFAS. It's the PFAS. Yeah, right. That's
what's doing it to you. Come on. It's beyond
that. And we have to take responsibility for
ourselves, and we don't always do that. And I've
been a union member my whole life, but the union
is good at grabbing low -hanging fruit. you know
and not that they don't fight some really hard
fights because we've been involved in that but
it's it's time here we are right here we are
and the the the good thing for us and good thing
for this next generation of firefighters and
the generations that are going to follow us is
the research is there the science and the chemistry
is there there's brilliant people like the folks
like dr orman and dr stapleton and dr kessler
who i listened to yesterday they are doing the
work for us on our behalf and we don't have to
pay them right the union doesn't have to pay
them maybe the union would rather pay them so
they can get the results they want but you know
our taxpayers are doing that through fema through
everybody else and obviously that's what researchers
do they research to the point where, oh, shit,
I need more research money to continue my career.
But we need them, and they're working on our
behalf. And I think they do it in the right way.
But I think that down the road, the next generation
of firemen are going to be much better suited
for everything, and they're going to be well
protected, at least better protected than you
and I were because of all this. And because people
like you are voicing their opinions, and old
guys like me are still doing it. I mean, hell,
years ago, Billy Goldfeder was probably the first
guy in the fire service to really utilize social
media and the Internet. When those of us were
trying to figure out what AOL was, Billy had
already mastered it and was putting out tons
of information. Well, now the podcast world is
they are guys like you, what you've done, guys
like Jeremy Donch with National Fire Radio and
some of the others. They are that next generation.
We've pushed it to the next level. And I really
believe that this next generation, my son's era
and kids coming up through the job right now,
they're going to take it to a whole nother level.
I sure hope, you know, and I guess that transitions
a little bit too, but we all, we all talk about,
you know, this generation of kids and this or
that. Well, I was that generation years ago and
the old guys told me I was a piece of shit too.
So it's, it's cyclical, but I really do believe.
it can be better. Let me just go back real quick
to the dorm thing and the culture of the firehouse.
Yeah, please. I met a guy and honestly, God,
I go to so many firehouses. I don't always recall
where I met people at, but this gentleman was
talking to me and we were talking about firehouses
and they were building a new firehouse. And he
said, you know what the problem with our firehouses
are? They're way too big because we've lost every
bit of family feeling. We're not with each other
enough. Our company officers don't demand that
we stay like you said. You know, hey, you can
go in your bunk room when you're taking a nap.
I'm totally cool with a nap for success. But
when you're done with that, don't stay in the
bunk room all day. Get out here on the floor.
I'm a big proponent, and I know it's not the
healthiest thing in the world, but I'm a big
proponent of having that squad table at the back
of the engine where the guys just sit and talk
fire. Because when we did it in our firehouse,
my chief hated it because he didn't like the
look of it. It looked like we were just hanging
out. But, man. More fire stories got told, more
training, informal training, more informal critiques.
When you're looking at fire stuff, you tend to
look and do fire stuff as opposed to when you're
in the TV room watching, you know, whatever you're
watching. We're playing these guys like Call
of Duty in the middle of the night, like you
got to be shitting, you know. So that's my rant
on that. But I really do believe when a guy said
firehouses are being built so big. Look at the
money they could save if we tightened up the
firehouse and brought the crews together a little
bit more. And he's right. He's not wrong. I never
thought of it until he said that. When I think
about, again, I always go back to Anaheim just
because it's the most cohesive tight knit as
a whole department that I work for. You know,
we were constantly obviously running calls. I
mean, I've never worked in a department that
wasn't extremely busy. But if you're not, then
you got your workouts, which, you know, certainly
in Anaheim. That was a culture everyone worked
out in Orange County. And ultimately, the last
place I worked, I was able to develop that within
the station, at least, where we'd all do workouts
together. Then you've got training together.
Then you cook in. I mean, again, Anaheim, you
know, we cooked all the time. We ate together
as a crew. Now you've got UFC or I think it was
Dexter. We'd watch together. You know what I
mean? So now you've created all these things
where we are together. Then, you know, I'm going
to go Skype the wife or whatever it is that you're
doing. Of course. Then you go into your private
space. I think that's phenomenal. And like I
said, the deeper sleep that you're going to get,
you know, when you're in an individual dorm and
you're not being woken up for everyone else's
calls is essential. But those communal spaces,
you know, and that's a culture that's, again,
driven by the officers, senior firefighters,
you know, whatever that dynamic is. But I agree,
you know, they do become so vast. You know, is
there a way of, you know, either, as you said,
just do we need them as big as that? And or,
you know, maybe we invest a little bit more in
those communal areas, you know, like pickleball
is huge now, you know, over the line we used
to play. I mean, all these volleyball in the
back, back apron, you know, basketball, which
one that was always shut down because someone
rolled an ankle. It's like, yeah, but you're
missing all the. cardiovascular benefits of everyone
that's playing yeah so i think you can really
nurture that other stuff and put it back in and
we'll kind of this is a good transition now you
know we were hit talking before we hit record
you know this kids today they don't want to work
they just want to be youtubers and i've said
this many times if you actually look at the you
know the the things that are being talked about
as far as gen z The Wall Street Journal published
an article saying that they are going into the
trades more than ever. And what's happening is
the same reason that they're not choosing the
fire service, because you can do a Google search
now. Is it healthy to be a firefighter? And it's
terrifying, everything that comes up. And then
you can do a Google search. Is it worth getting
a degree? $60 ,000 in debt, piece of paper, doesn't
guarantee you a job. These young, intelligent
people are going, that sounds a bit shit too.
Let me go be a welder. So we have this group
of people that want to do hands -on tradesman
training, but they're looking at our profession,
at the things that we've discussed, all the poor
wages, the recruitment crisis that's forged,
all this overtime. Now you've got cancers and
suicides and divorces and all the things. Yes,
it's a dark side. It doesn't negate what an amazing
job we have, but it's just as important to discuss.
These young people... They're in touch with their
physical health, their mental health, their relationships.
And so when we fix it, like Pasco County, the
phone is ringing off the hook in the HR department
again. But until we do, we're dissuading kids.
And then we're saying, oh, the recruitment crisis
is because kids don't want to work. I call bullshit.
You call bullshit on that. So you obviously got
a much better lens on the fire service, on the
training side. Talk to me about that kind of.
two -dimensional view of our young people today,
and what are you actually seeing as far as the
passion of these new recruits that you're working
with? It is different. It's absolutely different,
and I don't think it's different in a bad way.
I don't teach at as many conferences as some
of these guys do, but we do a lot of conferences,
and we do a lot of individual departmental training
with our company. I'm seeing a lot of young firemen
come to these conferences. And they're coming
on their own dime, right? And I'm seeing an influx
of women in the fire service, not all younger
women either, not just, you know, 20 -year -olds,
but women who are in their late 20s, early 30s,
you know, mid -30s, even in the volunteers starting
to see that influx. And certainly, you're seeing
more diverse groups. You're seeing more minorities
and so forth. Is that why that is? I couldn't
tell you, and I'm not. there to study it but
i can tell you that i'm finding these folks want
to learn if they're going to a conference on
their own i don't need to talk to them about
why you should love this job and why you should
be a fireman and all this other nonsense you're
already freaking there somebody already preached
to them and now they're the choir right i don't
need to preach to the choir i need to teach them
skills right i know it's the old fbny saying
is the two things you can't teach somebody is
heart and balls Well, it doesn't matter where
the balls are, right? If it's a girl or a guy,
I don't care. Whatever the case may be, if you've
got the heart and you've got the desire to do
it, we can give you the skills if you're willing
to learn the skills. And I believe that they
are willing to learn the skills. The ones I'm
seeing show up, obviously, they are the one percenters,
right? They're coming. They want this. Or somebody
has told them, you need to do this. Come with
me. And their buddy grabbed him by the hand and
said, hey, let's share a room. Let's share a
ride up to Long Island for the Joey D. Or let's,
you know, go down to, you know, wherever in Florida
for Orlando Fire Conference or TC Hot or the
Fools trainings that are all over the country
now up in New England. Rusty Ricker does a tremendous
job with all the training up there. So what I'm
seeing is guys who want to do this and they're
building their own. identities and they're building
their own departmental cultures through training
with each other and they're energetic and they
want to do it they just need the right people
to lead them to it right they're not dumb by
any means they're probably smarter than we were
they may not have the street smarts that we had
but they've they've they're intelligent they
understand processes and things of that nature
way more than i ever did as a kid way more um
and they're into it they're energetic the the
biggest negative i see is a lot of false prophets
right and and people who have great influence
in the fire service because of their outstanding
social media skills and because they can get
on a table and pound their fist and hoot and
holler and tell everybody this is how it should
be and and you know they're going to will you
to what it's going to be and in the end You see
a lot of chest beating. You see a lot of egos.
You see a lot of narcissism. And you see a lot
of bullshit trying to make themselves something
they're not or trying to pull in a ton of money.
I mean, I don't want to see a guy who's living
in a million -dollar house telling me, I really
need you at my conference because you need this.
Bullshit. Your conference is probably overpriced
and you're putting your kids through college
on me. I get it. I want those. salt of the earth
instructors who want to work with people who
want to get them better who are willing to sit
down and you'll see this at conferences i watch
this i went to i teach it for the joey d every
year right my on scene does and myself anything
we can do we try to help sponsor that for those
who don't know lieutenant joey d bernardo memorial
foundation truly one of the greatest groups of
people i've ever been a part of chief d does
a great job with it in joey's honor but I've
watched and seen some of the people who I look
up to in the fire service, whether it's Mike
Dugan from retired from FDNY or it's Mike Champo
or it's Mo Davis or Clyde Gordon or those guys
from Houston. Another guy that's fabulous. And
I watch him teach and I watch him talk to young
guys, whether it's in the bar or somewhere on
the drill ground. There's a guy named Larry DiCamillo.
He's a truck guy. He's a retired Houston guy.
Now he's a chief in Texas. And I watch them interact,
and it's humble, and it's giving the firefighters
what they need. And, man, most of these kids,
they don't understand the greatness of who they're
in the presence of. And not to blow all my buddies'
egos up any bigger than they are, but I stand
there in awe sometimes and listen to these things
myself. And I'm like, shit, am I learning a lot
just standing here in the bar, right? And we
have so much more options and so many more opportunities
to deliver this to this next generation than
anybody did to us. Because when you and I were
young, we read Fire Engineering or Firehouse
Magazine, right? We didn't have all the online
information. It was just beginning. There were
only a few conferences here or there. And really,
I didn't even know about them. chiefs went to
that ship i didn't know the firemen could go
to that you know now it's just it's all there
but we've got to vet it down we've got to you
know i'm not going to send a guy from new egypt
to the high -rise conference that guys do because
the the they have nothing over three stories
other than a silo right so but should i send
them to a silo rescue class yeah probably right
so we have to vet out what we're doing who we're
doing it with and and you know Give them what's
pertinent. But they're learners, and we can learn
a ton from them. I look at that just like kind
of my kids' friends. Some of the kids he hangs
out, not kids, they're all young men now. They're
all in their mid -20s or so. But like some of
the guys in Thibodeau is a good example. We go
down there, and we're training them in fire stuff.
One of the guys, he just got on a job next door
to there, and he was studying to be a pilot and
then had some. something came up and they told
him that physically he wasn't able to do it so
he went to hvac school got his hvac certification
instead of going to college and now he's on a
job can that guy provide a lot to the fire service
and does he have the ability hell yeah you know
um one of the other kids works for the diocese
and is is kind of their i .t specialist i think
down there well man what fire department can't
use a great i .t guy Who, by the way, is in great
physical shape, is a great person, hardcore fireman,
great at training. And I've watched him stretch
into buildings and does a hell of a job. These
are the people that we want. We want to recruit
them, bring them in, bring them into the fold,
nurture them. You know, don't pussyfoot around
them, make them work, but nurture them. And they
are us 20 years from now. I can't hold it to
my vest. I can't take it to my grave with me.
What the hell good would that do? So, you know,
it frustrates the shit out of me at times watching
some of this. But they're not bad. This next
generation will be just fine in my eyes. It's
funny you use the example. I remember going to
the Orlando Fire Conference a few years ago,
and it was exactly that. I think it felt like
about three years, but I think it was a 60 or
90 minute. presentation, but it was chest thumping,
got to be into the job. And I remember looking
around going, we're at the Orlando Fire Conference.
For the love of God, everyone in here is into
the job or is trying to be into the job. And
that was the takeaway, be into the job, period.
And this is the problem that you see. And I think
this is what's really exciting. I've had a lot
of people say to me, The fit recruits that we
are getting now are in really great shape because
when you came on, which is way before I did,
I only ever had 14 years, you know, there wasn't
CrossFit and mud runs and, you know, mobility
and foam rolling and meditation and breath work
and none of that. And then when I came in still
only, you know, 22 years ago. Still wasn't that
conversation ready. It was still the tail end
of the bodybuilding. I discovered CrossFit at
Anaheim, one of my truck partners, and that revolutionized
everything. Well, now this young group. has been
brought up with all of that stuff. You know,
everything from Wim Hof and meditation through
the really well -designed strength conditioning
programs and the ability to test themselves in
endurance events. And they're coming in now with
that skill set. So those people exist. I watched
my son's cross -country team, his track team,
JROTC, some phenomenal young men and women that
are going through the Marion County public school
system here. That would be, and hopefully some
of them are, phenomenal firefighters so they
exist and yes do we need to make that portion
larger by addressing the national obesity epidemic
and the mental health crisis and all these other
things of course that's another piece of the
puzzle but the other part extreme ownership everyone
seems to love jocko's book is what are we doing
to attract that group of people that is going
into nursing, welding, whatever other professions,
because they're looking at us and going, I've
always wanted to be a firefighter, but I didn't
realize that they didn't take care of their people.
Because that's it. That's the bottom line. If
you're working 56 hours a week and doing nothing
about the recruitment crisis and retention, and
now you're forcing men and women to work 80 hours
and call their loved ones at 7 .30 in the morning
and say, I know I told you I was going to go
to the Donuts for Dads, but I can't come home
now. That sucks. then you have fucking failed
us. So if we want to attract the right kind of
people and put that bar where it needs to be,
which is high because jobs, you know, lives depend
on, on our ability to do our job. Then we have
to address the things that are broken. So I think
100 % these people exist. And I think that the
next group of firefighters are going to be even
better than us. That's the whole point of a parent
or a coach is to groom the next generation to
learn from your mistakes and be even better and
look back at us and go, what the fuck were they
thinking 20 years ago? But the only way we're
going to do that is to have the humility to say
some of the things that we're doing are broken.
Who is doing it right? Can you tell me how you
did it? The rising tide lifts all ships. I totally
agree. You know, we don't want to be dinosaurs
leaving dinosaur eggs, right? And unfortunately,
that's happened over the generations. And it
always will. Those folks will always be there.
But we need to negate those people. We need to
be the positive influence that pushes them to
the side. And I agree with you. What I've seen
with... today's generation, and maybe right before
this, they don't necessarily feel that you're
dedicated. If you're not going to be dedicated
to them, they are not going to show any dedication
to you, which I don't blame them. But when we
were raised, it was different. I knew when I
came on the job, I'm spending my whole career
here. Unless I go to a bigger city and I can
really upgrade things, this is where I'm going
to be, right? And a few years into it, I knew
this was the rest of my career. This group. this
this group that are in their 20s now that we're
attracting and trying to bring in that loyalty
doesn't necessarily exist right and and i see
it with my with my son i see it with my stepson
he's been through my stepson has been through
i think he's on like his third job in about four
years he's improved his lot in life drastically
by doing that and he had the balls to do it when
i was his age i wouldn't have had the balls to
do it and i i say that all the time like I'm
really proud of him because he had the balls
to step out of his comfort zone and go to the
next level and get for his family and what he's
trying to build. And had they treated him like
gold, would he have stayed and thought twice
about it? I think so, right? Where my son plays
into it, he started in one department. They preach
a culture. They do things their way. He definitely
did not fit in there. It wasn't his thing. Things
went. Really south, really fast. And he luckily
went to another department quickly, because honestly,
I don't know that his mental health was going
to hold up much more. He was in a bad spot. And
that place really helped build him back up. And
I look at that chief and I thank him. But he
knew that the kid didn't want to be there. It
was a smaller, more rural county style department.
And he wanted big city. And eventually he moved
to a bigger city down in Louisiana. But he told
me, I've got one move left in me. I want one
more place, and this is where I want to be, and
this is what I'm working for. And he did it.
I give him all the credit in the world, and he's
working for a very good fire department in Louisiana
right now, in my opinion. And he told me, that
is the last step. This is where I'm going to
be. Couldn't be happier, right? They are treating
their employees well, from what I can see. their
members are treated not necessarily like employees
but like a good like firemen and with with some
integrity and i'm sure they have their problems
but they seem to be treat treating people the
right way they promote training they promote
you know the brotherhood and sisterhood and they're
doing it right he doesn't want to leave there
that's where he wants to he bought a house down
there he's setting up roots man that's it right
they have so many opportunities in the world
today That if why would they stay with a shitty
organization? And now, like you said, once the
ball starts rolling in Florida, now Florida is
tough because folks like from up here have to
start completely fresh going to Florida. Right.
So my none of my certs transfer, I would have
had to start all over again. And even if I was
in my 20s, I may not want to do that again. But
a place in South Carolina, North Carolina, a
place in Ohio that they say. Yep, we're going
to go to 24 -72s. We're going to provide this
level of financial assistance. We're going to
provide maybe college education for you or something
like that. Well, you're not going to have a recruiting
lapse at all because everybody's going to start
pulling out of these other shittier departments
and say, yeah, I'm going to go where I'm wanted.
Just like what are the hospitals that do that
to get nurses, right? Same thing. You offer them
the right things and you treat them well. You
create that good culture. Why wouldn't they come
to you? And you're right. The people who are
sitting on the back of the wagon right now thinking,
ah, it's going to be okay. We don't have to change.
We're the fire department. People are coming
to us because they want to be firemen. That was
1988, man. That ain't today. That's not today.
And if you're not thinking like the person who
is on the reins of the horse pulling the wagon.
who is really setting that course, you're beat.
You're beat. They're all going to that front
of the wagon. They ain't going to stay in the
back with you. If that makes sense. No, it does.
Actually, I want to give a shout out. I wish
I could remember the name of the department now,
but I was talking to a firefighter from North
Carolina and they were transitioning from, I
think it was volunteer and paid on call, if I've
got that right, or volunteer and part -time to
full -time. And I think they still have, you
know, volunteer element. And he said to me, you
know, we're thinking of, you know, maybe changing
to a different work week and maybe Kelly's first.
And I was like, look, if you want to do it properly
the first time, do a 24 -72. And everyone that's
come to me with all these different schedules,
that still ends up being the gold standard because
for every 24 hours, which is pushing it for a
human being. you need at least 72 hours to recover
from that. So if you start messing around with
different versions of that, it's not as good.
And certainly if you do 24 -48 with Kelly's,
you're way behind now. And he took it and he
ran with it. And the other day I got a message
saying, that's it, we're going 24 -72. And I've
got so much admiration for saying, we're going
to do it right the first time. I've got another
friend of mine, same exact position, didn't do
that, 48 -96. And I facepalmed. But it is what
it is. But yeah, I mean, that kind of, you know,
understanding the value. And then the big thing
for me is the bar. If you want to have this conversation
about 24 -72, it's incredible because then you
get to have the conversation about fitness standards,
annual fitness assessments. Because if we're
talking about health, go ask an ocean lifeguard
if it's unfair that they have to do a swim test
every six months or a year. They'll laugh in
your face. I was a lifeguard myself. So for cops
and firemen and paramedics and EMTs to start
crying in their cornflakes about being held to
a standard when they were held to a standard
in the academy, certainly fire and police, maybe
not EMS, but it should be, is insane. So now
we get to move the needle on the work week. Now
we put fitness standards in. Now these young
fired up recruits are like, well, wait a second.
This is getting pretty hard to be a firefighter
now. I think I'm interested. Because I can tell
you hand on my heart, the worst fire department
I ever worked for, the bar was in a trench in
the floor and no one wanted to work for them.
The best fire department I ever worked for, they
would cut a quarter of every probationary class.
No one ever left that fire department. And you
had people lining up around the building to work
for them. So you want to forge recruitment. You
fix the things that are broken that show your
employees that you care. And then you put that
bar freaking high. and you challenge the best
recruits that are out there to reach that bar,
you will see recruitment go through the roof
again. I can't agree with you more. And I will
say this, as I take this back in the career setting,
at least in the Northeast, I throw this in the
union's lap because my own union for years fought
fitness standards, fought it tooth and nail.
And I know we talked about this years ago when
I was on with you. And I'm sure today they would
fight it again to a degree because they don't,
you know, we're here to protect our men. Well,
if you're here to protect our men and women of
this job, I don't want the guy next to me that
can't do the job. I'm not in the condition I'm
in today. I should not be nearly, I don't feel
that I can do the job I once did, right? At 55,
I probably should lose 40 pounds. I'm still riding
on a volunteer fire engine. I'm still doing my
job. Do I do it as well as that 25 -year -old?
Not physically. Mentally, yeah, absolutely. I
can outthink him. I can tell him what he needs
to do. But physically, I'm not going to be as
fast, as strong, and as mobile as that guy. But
I should have a standard level to meet. And if
I don't, I'm going to continue to slip. In a
lot of places, no matter how self -driven we
are and self -motivated, over time, we start
to slip. And we all have that gap at times in
our lives, right? So I feel that. I watched my
fire department hire a guy off the civil service
list. Now I'm retired, right? They hired this
guy recently and within the last few years. He
was a wonderful kid, great kid. When he took
the test three years ago, he was in much better
physical condition than he's in today. Well,
civil service rules, our union, the whole nine
yards, nobody bitched that today he doesn't meet
anywhere near a standard. He's a liability to
himself, to his family, and to the job. Bottom
line, I don't care how great a person you are
and how much I love you. It's not right. And
is that the guy that you want coming through
your bedroom window or that you would expect
to be able to come through your bedroom window,
for Christ's sake? If we're not going to hold
them to a standard, and this should be in the
volunteer service too, and I know what they say.
In the volunteers, it's like, hey, we'll take
anybody we can get. Okay, take them. But you
can't rely on them to be a frontline fireman.
Bottom line. In the career service, you hold
the freaking hammer, right? You're paying them.
They got to meet a standard. Is the union willing
to step up and say, listen, man, I can't protect
your job if you can't run the mile in 12 minutes
or 14 minutes or whatever the thing is, or if
you can't finish a CPAT in whatever the time
is for a CPAT. There's no excuse. I actually.
I talked to a woman who's on the job recently
in the Northeast, and I don't really know her
from Adam other than I've seen her social media
and I see that she's into the job. And then I
talked to a couple people just because I want
to, you know, find out. When somebody's asking
me my advice, I want to find out about them before
I'm going to give advice. And everybody I talked
to said, you know, very strong firefighter, does
what it takes, physically fit, really into the
job, all nine yards, right? I talked to her about
it and, and just a beast to prove very much.
I put her in contact with Jenny and it was right
after Jenny Grima's, uh, this was what a week
or so ago. I sent her the Jenny Grima link to
her, her interview with you and said, this is
somebody I think you two should talk and, and
her motivation and her dedication to what she's
doing. And she's not a young kid. You know, she's
got kids, the whole nine yards. Those are the
people. If she can do it, I can do it. If she
can do it, that 24 -year -old kid who just maybe
graduated college or who works, you know, wherever
he works and has decided he's going to get on
a job, get your ass in shape and do it, and the
union should hold your feet to the fire for the
next 30 years of your career, just like the town
should. Our state police have them run every
year. Why can't we? You know? I mean, you see
it. I don't understand it. My wife and I have
this conversation all the time. She's a retired
division one, all American athlete. And at her
age is still out there running on field hockey
fields, coaching kids and really outworks a lot
of the damn kids, you know? So it's like, if
we can do this, you can do this. It's again,
like I said about wanting to do something, you've
got to have the goddamn will to make it happen.
And without the will and the initiative. What
are we doing? We're failing ourselves. We're
failing our community. Down the road, that guy
who's so far out of shape or that girl who can't
throw the ladder because she didn't drill like
Jenny explained the drilling is not going to
be able to get that ladder to that window where
that kid is. And now what did we do? It's on
us. It's not even just on them. It's on us as
well. It's a screwed up system, man. I think
the thing that pisses me off, and it's the same
with 24 -72, there is no downside from saving
money to restoring relationships to recovery
from training, processing, learning. I mean,
everything gets better, everything. And it's
the same with fitness standards. Our ability
to perform, and I've said this many times, the
last place I worked that hardly ever saw fire
next to my station was a 30 -story hotel, 3 -0.
So with a high rise trip at the time, I was 168
pounds. The high rise trip was another 100 pounds,
30 floors up. Worst case scenario, before you
go to work, there's a reason why we have a fitness
standard. Pavarotti was a phenomenal singer.
Doesn't mean he would have been a good firefighter.
So just because someone is good at something
doesn't mean they're the right thing for the
job. I would be a horrible accountant. I always
say that. So performance is obviously the most
important thing, arguably in one area. But the
other thing is longevity. Every department that
has opposed fitness standards has said, I don't
mind our people dying younger. That's literally
what you're saying. I don't want to maintain
their health. So therefore, if they die of everything
from, you know, I mean, everything, strokes,
heart disease, cancers, whatever it is that we
all know are amplified through obesity, as well
as sleep deprivation, then you're saying, well,
that's okay. It's okay that we live five, six
years after retirement. That's perfectly acceptable
with me. Rather than having the guts to say,
that is unacceptable. Not only our ability to
perform, but I care about our people. Oh, and
by the way, they're paying union dues, so I should
probably actually earn my money. But their lifespan
is important. I want them to crush it in retirement.
I want them to be drawing their pension for decades
after this. So again, there is no downside, but
I'm always very fair. up until recently the environment
has worked against fitness health full stop you
know the work week is destroying you and they
don't have the capacity to do these high intensity
workouts and then recover they don't have the
motivation because they're so exhausted don't
even have the time sometimes they're being forced
in all these mandatory overtime so this is why
i think this 24 72 revolution is the perfect
opportunity to say we are going to create an
environment that allows you to thrive and perform
and be home when you're supposed to but as you
know and and parallel to that we're finally going
to go put those fitness standards in and the
misconception is oh you're trying to take everyone's
jobs no of course there will be an on -ramp period
a year 18 months whatever it is to get to this
point yeah but by that point you're going to
be one of two people the person who put the work
in because they value their job they value their
health and they got back to where they've always
wanted to be And the person who doesn't want
to do the work. And if someone is scared of being
tired, is scared of a workout, I do not want
that person on the hose line or on the roof next
to me, period. So it even allows you to filter
out the people that slip through the cracks or
they're just kind of fallen out of love with
the job. And then if you're lucky, then you transition
into prevention or take an early retirement.
But those people have no business being in a
profession where lives are at stake. You go to
a fitness standard. You give everyone the tools
to get back to that point where they do meet
those requirements. And then, you know, maybe
you might lose one and two that just realize
they don't want to do that anymore. But again,
there is no downside other than, as I've said
many times, having the courage to say this needs
to happen. It's absolutely what it is. It's the
will. It's the courage. It's the drive to make
it better. I've listened to so many people who've
come on your podcast and some of the others and
folks who aren't in our profession, a lot of
the military operators and a lot of the people
who are studying the military operators and so
forth. And I don't compare us to them anyway.
I've heard guys say, oh, firemen, we're the Navy
SEALs at a fire service in SOC. Get the fuck
out. No, you're not. Right. It's just I was in
the ocean swimming the other day and it was really
rough. Right. And I came out and I said to my
wife, I don't know how those guys in the service
truly do this. Like, I'm a I'm a strong swimmer.
We were out there swimming for 15, 20 minutes.
I'm like, my ass is cooked, you know. But but,
you know, I listen to these folks and I look
at the mental health aspect of it. Right. If
they're healthier, their mental health is better.
Their relationships are better. I wish I had
known this. when i was screwing up my life years
ago you know i'm i'm blessed i got a second chance
i'm in a good spot my life is good but you know
so many of the guys didn't get the second chance
and you know literally ate a bullet or did what
they did because of all these things that compounded
and the physical fitness is always part of that
that at least it's it's a component if we've
got good physical fitness it helps towards our
mental fitness we do our job better It just all
falls into place. And I'm not the guy who should
preach physical fitness. You know, if I take
my shirt off and look in the mirror, I'm not
pleased, right? But I know what it takes. And
I just have a strong belief in it. And it goes
to, again, chief officers, right? I watch all
these different memes and videos and reels of
guys who are just tearing the shit out of the
administration of fire departments, right? Some
of them are well -earned. I'm not going to lie.
Some of these guys deserve every bit of it. Jesus
Christ, if you're a chief officer or a commanding
officer of an organization, commissioners, whatever
they are, have the balls to step up and say,
we're going to implement this. And I'll equate
it to this. Whether you like Trump, you hate
Trump, whatever the case may be. And it's a completely
polarizing person, right? So I'm not here to
talk politics. But what do we see him do? He
does it. whether he ruffles feathers or not,
he does it. And then he'll say, well, let the
courts decide, right? Well, at least he took
action. And I don't agree with every action he
takes, but at least he took some action and said,
all right, I'm making a decision. I think it's
making things better. And if you don't like it,
fight me and we'll see where we end up. But maybe
we can work this out together. And that's what
chiefs need to do with their unions. and with
everybody else you can't look at it as your complete
foe yeah you're on opposite sides of the aisle
right but make a decision if i was a fire chief
today in a fire department you know that needed
this i would immediately say we're going to institute
a health and safety program we're going to institute
annual fit tests right not just your fit test
on your mask but fitness testing and if you don't
meet a certain standard you're going to have
this time like you said to on -ramp And if you
refuse to do that or you physically can't do
that or medically, it'll be a case -by -case
basis. But we're going to make change in this
organization, and we're going to see it happen,
and we're going to be better at what we do because
of it. And you don't have to look like an Adonis
to do it. I've worked with guys who were 300
pounds and 6 '4", and they could throw line all
day, ladders all day, and do fine in their fit
tests, right? They were great. absolute studs
so it's not the skinny little guy who who weighs
140 and you know is running marathons it can
be for all of us but it's got to be done and
if officers don't have the balls to step up and
do it or the will to step up and do it you're
failing you're failing the fire service A hundred
percent. And I agree. I couldn't agree more.
You don't have to have, you know, a six pack
beach body. It's not about that at all. And I
think that even with the strength and conditioning
coaches, you know, they're talking about, you
know, Mets on the bike or all this stuff. I'm
like, to me, this is just my opinion now. Forget
even that. Go back to the CPAT or the fire sled,
you know, the FPAT, I think they call it, whatever
it is, fire ground tasks. So whether you are
male, female, 18, 50, gay, straight, trans. you
know, half dinosaur, whatever you are, you either
can or you can't. It's just that simple because,
you know, if we're on the fire ground or bunkered
up, all you can see is those who can and those
who can't. We all know who they are. So, you
know, no one can say it's unfair because it's
the very implements that you had to use in fire
school. And I think that's a great overall fitness
test that then will transition to your ability
to respond to an MCI shooting or an extrication.
You know, it's if you've got the aerobic capacity
and the muscular endurance to get a solid time
on a CPAT, then it's a good overall barometer
for other things, too. So it's not even unfair
at all. You know, I've said this many times.
When I was 46, I did the CPAT in seven minutes,
20 seconds. I am not by any way, shape or form
the fastest, strongest in anything ever. I just
made sure that I own my own shit. So if a 46
-year -old can shave three minutes off a CPAT,
don't tell me that it's air quotes too hard to
do in 10 minutes and 20 seconds. So I think it
is. It's just about saying line in the sand.
Enough is enough. We've done it the wrong way
for too long. We fixed some of the things that
were broken, i .e. the work week, which now created
this immense interest in recruitment. Now all
our spots are filled with each person with a
career person now. Mandatory overtime has gone.
Now we're going to ask you to, you know, to hold
this standard, which again is just going to amplify
the health benefits that we've already worked
in with this work week. And now, as you said,
the mental health side, the camaraderie side,
the time with our family, all these things are
going to improve. And maintaining your health
means that when you are 55 and you spent 20 years
in the fire service, you're still able to then
go out in your backyard and throw a football
around or, you know, go ice skating with your
kids. It's so important. And now I see it as
quote unquote a retiree, which I've completely
screwed up retirement apparently because I'm
working harder now than I ever did. But it's
my choice, right? With the training company,
it's my choice. But as a retiree, I see it even
more, right? Because I see a lot of guys my age
who are in terrible shape, who are getting these
diseases, just they're not living any real quality
of life. And it's scary because... There was
a time where we didn't pay attention to those
things, and I pray that the PFAS isn't already
there and gotten me pretty good. I take all my
tests. I go to my physicals, make sure that my
cardiac stuff is correct, my pulmonary stuff
is still good. It's very important to me. In
Jersey, we have a thing called a gift from Captain
Buccio that we did. It's free. Every fireman
in the state can do it for free, and I do it
every year. As you get older, you start to get
a better perspective on this too, I think, because
you're like, shit, man, I'm on the lower numbers
here. I'm not going to last as long as I thought
I would. So I got to be more cautious of it.
And I want this younger generation to be better
than me. That's our whole goal, right? You always
want your kids to do better than you all. My
whole thing is I want the generation of the fire
service to be better than me. I watch my wife
coach field hockey. And again, like I said, she
coaches at a high level. And her whole thing
is making sure these girls have the fitness level
to be able to maintain. And then it's the skills.
But they've got to be fit to do their job, so
to speak. And it's no different, right? It's
just no different. That's how high -performing
folks do it. It's doable. Right. It's doable.
I see it. So that's that's where I'm at with
it. Absolutely. Well, I want to kind of pivot
a little bit. You have quite the cadre that you
work with with on scene training specifically.
And then obviously you're you're all these other
conferences as well. One common denominator I've
seen from these extremely motivated, hungry firefighters
is more often than not. the profit is not received
in their own land and there's a very toxic culture
towards them and so many people i know that are
just you know really beautiful passionate firefighters
really start struggle with that kind of organizational
betrayal almost within their own department so
talk to me about that perspective if you have
one uh yeah i lived it man i lived it uh there's
guys in hamilton right now that hate my guts
i'm sure of it and say uh he didn't do on the
job okay um you're not a prophet in your own
land you know the old story 50 miles in a briefcase
makes you an expert that tends to happen and
unfortunately a lot of these guys who portray
themselves as experts aren't and and they're
not honest and they're snake oil salesmen and
they're selling themselves which is even worse
it's difficult at times i can tell you that when
i was in charge of training at work i brought
in a lot of other people from outside the organization
because again over time listening to me they
got tone deaf they didn't want to hear me ah
it's just how we're talking again what the hell
is he about you know so you i would bring in
very good people who i i felt were the real deal
they were vetted they knew what they were doing
and they were a plus to our department um so
i lived it even in my volunteer department today
I'm sure that there's feathers ruffled and personalities
get in the way. And at times we don't embrace
some of the good in some people, right? So I
see that. The people that are part of On Scene
are some of the most humble, well -educated,
well -experienced, and just quality people you
could ever meet. And I don't know the formula
for it. I had a little formula when I started
on scene. I wanted geographical diversity and
departmental diversity when I was doing this.
I can't have just a bunch of FDNY guys preaching
FDNY. You can't have a bunch of guys from Florida
just preaching how they do it. Osceola, Florida,
Orlando, Florida, wherever. Honestly, it really
all did come through the fools. I met these guys
over the years. We were all part of the fools
in all different parts of the country and little
by little. A friend told a friend about somebody
else. And that's how this whole thing grew. My
friendship with Bart Simpson, one of the founding
fools, right? One of my dearest friends in the
world. He never rose above firefighter in Osceola.
Didn't want to. But man, a senior man who was
completely respected. He's retired from there
now and he's deputy chief of Malabar. But highly
respected, highly educated, highly trained, very
well experienced. But I'm sure there were guys
in his own department that were like, ah, it's
him. Oh, it's just him again. And then I look
around at others. I've got a good friend of mine,
and we became friends only a few years ago. My
brother -in -law is a retired Prince George's
County, Maryland lieutenant. He said, you ever
think of bringing Ariel Jackson into your fold?
He's a hell of a guy. I knew who he was. I knew
he had taught with some Jersey friends of mine,
and he was very good and respected, but I didn't
really know him. So I sat down and talked with
him. Ariel's a captain in Anne Arundel now. This
is a guy who is a second generation, at least.
His dad retired from Baltimore City as a captain.
Worked there during the war years, the whole
nine yards. Ariel has worked in the busiest places.
Highly respected. Still going to a lot of fires,
although now he's running their training academy.
uh probably much to his chagrin but um and i
and i look at him and i've never heard somebody
ever say a bad thing about the man because he's
just so genuine and such a good i wouldn't even
say teacher but sharer is if that's a way of
putting it he shares his knowledge so freaking
well and relates to every student so friggin
well that I'm just blessed to be around folks
like that. Look at what Jenny went through. And
she didn't go into detail. And she was, I would
say, truly a lady about her conversation with
you. But there were people who abused her. They
were mentally torturing the shit out of that
woman. And there's somebody who just wanted to
be good at her job. She was a brilliant person,
as you heard. i mean when she was talking about
the cancer stuff and her studies and and research
and so forth i was like glued to it you know
to just hear it all and i spent a lot of time
with her and i didn't even know some of the depth
but she was shunned by members of her own organization
and and i i think there's two things when you
get involved in these things those who who are
jealous of you are going to create problems Those
who are fearful that you're going to make them
actually rise to a level that they don't want
to rise to will shun you and create problems.
And those who know they're not very bright, and
it's nothing against them, but they fear people
who they think might be. And they almost feel
like you're trying to pull the wool over their
eyes. And so they're very hesitant of you, if
that makes sense. And my dad explained that to
me years ago. He was a brilliant man. Actually
turned down invitation to Mensa on multiple occasions.
Told him I don't want to be with you stuffed
shirt assholes, basically. But he warned me of
that. And he said, you know, you're dealing with
some folks who are old school. And I was young
and aggressive officer and I was cocky and I
had a big mouth. Now I'm just old with a big
mouth. And he warned me of that. And over the
years, I've kept that in the back of my head
and I see that. You know, why do you not like
the guy who's the first one up to wash the rig
and clean the bathrooms and, you know, be like
Jenny and go out and throw ladders? You don't
want to have to do it. And they're showing you
up. You're not willing to rise to that level.
Or, you know, as they say, it's easier to talk
about somebody than actually aspire to be somebody.
I think that plays a big role in the fire service.
we're so full of machismo and bravado you know
look at me and and i'm not saying i wasn't there
when i was a young fireman i'm sure i was the
same way but uh it's not the right way to be
it doesn't it doesn't foster good things down
the road yeah yeah i i mean i experienced that
especially in the last place um you know especially
the you know he's going to make us have to do
more things and of course you know I mean that's
the whole point is it was supposed to be you
know prepared to do our job not freak out wearing
the mask be fit enough to climb that high rise
with all that gear i don't think that you know
asking for that was was too far out of left field
but i saw it you know i saw you know the hate
and you know it is what it is luckily i've got
skin like teflon we're going back to pfas for
a second i just don't give a fuck what people
think i'll be completely honest because if it
needs to be changed and it's going to save lives
then You know, I'm going to make sure that I'm
part of that conversation. Where I have an issue
with all this, though, is I see this as one of
the least spoken elements of the mental health
crisis, that you have this person that was rah,
rah, rah in the academy and all the instructors
are like, this is what you got to be. And they
get into these departments and they're like,
sit down, shut up. You're making us look bad.
And that can be devastating because you have
joined a tribe and you believe that. You know,
this tribe is going to want to be the best and
they're going to take the fitness seriously and
the training seriously. And, you know, the culture
is going to be one of fun and playfulness and
sports together and eating together. And they
get there and everyone's in their individual
dorms and they're all eating on their own. And,
you know, they barely ever train or whatever
the thing is. And now you try and be that spark
plug in that firehouse, that department, and
you're vilified for it. So I think this is another
part. All the people that you surround yourself
with that do kind of put themselves as the tall
poppy, not for narcissism, but to actually just
try and forge progress, that then get so much
negativity that that becomes detrimental to their
own mental health. So I think this is another
important conversation. I think you're right.
It is. It really is. Another example. i talked
to someone who uh is and again i don't want to
get too detailed because i don't know that they
would want me to but but uh this person is a
captain in a department mid -south a fairly good
-sized department and and has gone through i
think some of the same like guys will be like
wow do i really want to work on that crew because
i know that that captain they drill every day
and you know she's into it she she pushes the
company hard but yet She fosters family atmosphere
in the company. But do I want to be, you know,
a part of being pushed that hard? And I think
that she's received shit in her career because
of the same thing. Like, hey, we're going to
be better than, you know, this company on BeepleTune.
We are ApleTune and we're this. You know, like
taking pride in that and fostering that. And
has she taken a beating over that? Even beat
herself up over it over the years? Probably.
And it's sad because these are the people we
need. These are the people that are going to
foster the next generation. Like you said, these
are the folks who, they're creating it. They're
creating what's good in the fire service or pushing
it even better. Good example, we just trained
with the East Orange, New Jersey Fire Department.
192 members, something of that nature. They work
24 -72, typical Northeast fire department. They
border kind of right around the city of Newark.
It's a very rough, poor city. Probably, my guess
is high 90 % African -American fire department,
which represents the demographics of their city.
And I got to tell you, when I was going to go
up there to teach, there were folks. Now, I was
involved in a company that I do a lot of. A lot
of consulting force sold them their turnout gear.
And so I was up there when they were getting
sized and making sure everything went right with
them, for them. And then we provide them with
their personal escape system training. And what
I saw out of 190 people that went through that
training was a huge majority of folks who wanted
to be there and who wanted to learn. And some
company officers who really, really took the
lead. And, you know, my company is going to do
this. We're going to be the best at this. And
they pushed. And then I heard some rumblings.
Oh, these freaking guys over there. Oh, he thinks
his shit don't stink. And it was the guy who
didn't want to do it. Right? Always. But those
guys policed themselves, I thought, very well.
And the ones who didn't want to be a part of
things, they were treated a little less than.
they were actually being pushed aside a little
bit than the guys who wanted to push themselves
hard and it was a it was a great experience uh
myself and ariel jackson was up there and artie
bloomer who's retired captain from harney and
another old timer and we all agreed man this
was a great group to work with they were self
-motivated and their company officers were pushing
their members and it was a lot of fun to see
that and encouraging as opposed to Don't let
the guy who grumbles in the chair create your
problems because don't let that be the vocal
minority and screw you up. Let the good folks
be the vocal majority and push it forward. It
makes life easier. It makes going to work more
fun. It's not going to work. It's kind of the
frat house without the booze, honestly. At least
nowadays it's without the booze. Back 30 years
ago it was still there. I really believe in it.
And I believe in fostering that in your people.
And all the on -scene instructors, it's a trait
that they all have. And at some point in their
careers, they have all gone through being the
pariah, so to speak. And I think we all embrace
it in a way. Like you said, I embrace it at this
point. And if you don't like it, tough shit.
This is who I am. This is what I'm going to do.
I'm going to go out there and throw portable
ladders by myself, whether I'm good at it. I'm
going to get good at. You know, I went to a fire
the other day with the volunteers. And again,
I'm 55, right? I was a chief of that volunteer
department many years ago. I was on the third
due engine and myself, another 55 -year -old
guy who's one of my close friends, and two young
kids are on the raid. And when we walked up,
we walked up to the staging area kind of, and
I looked at the assistant chief and I said, it's
only one portable ladder and it's only going
to a porch roof. Yeah, yeah, yeah, get ladders
thrown. So, you know, 100 some degree day and
at 55, I could still go and grab a 24 or 28,
whatever it was, and throw it, you know, and
set it for the guys that were working up there.
It's setting that example and taking that initiative.
But had I not, I'm lucky. I get to drill all
the time with the on -scene guys at all the trainings.
But if I was still responding and not in a training
company and just in my volunteer fire company.
It would behoove me to get down there on a Tuesday
or a Thursday night, take a ladder off the rig
and throw it 10 times until I was, you know,
just to refresh myself. That's what leaders do.
And if somebody pooh -poohs that, it's grown.
You don't need them. And for the young folks
who are taking that beating, tell them, it's
my ass. I'm here. I'm here and we're going to
do this. You don't like it? Tough shit. You know?
Absolutely. I want to hit one more area that
you actually kind of alluded to a little while
ago, and then we'll go to some closing questions.
Another really exciting conversation with this
move to 2472 for the rest of the country, and
this has been something I heard Gainesville talking
about a while ago now, is laterals and therefore
the conversation of reciprocity. And again, initially,
the first... you know, early adopters of this
movement are going to actually be able to get
some phenomenal firefighters. Pasco, their last
class, they had a bunch of people with 10, 15
years on. I think more than half of their class
were also paramedics, which is unheard of in
hiring at the moment. So you're going to have
that. Then you're going to have the middle group
that's going to be obviously, you know, still
getting some great people. And then the late
adopters are going to be, you know, waiting for
other people to go through fire academies so
they can get it. Let's be real. But where I think
there's a great opportunity is reciprocity. You
know, if not, if I am a paramedic still to this
day, if I want to go work in Louisiana or California
or New York, I have a national registry. I challenge
the state test. I'm now a medic in that state.
There is not that much difference between a New
York firefighter, a Florida firefighter, a California
firefighter, a Washington state firefighter.
There are, of course, are, you know. idiosyncrasies
yeah but a hose is a hose a ladder is a ladder
extrication tools you know rope rescue so what
blows me away is that we've created these hurdles
for people to move laterally around the country
because you have you know a louisiana firefighter
and his wife just got into the university of
florida and he wants to now lateral over to gainesville
why not he's got 10 years on you know amazing
experience doing it a different way you come
over here of course there would be a Gainesville
orientation to show you the idiosyncrasies of
how we do it, there would be a probation because
he might be an absolute turd that his department
couldn't wait to get rid of. And then, you know,
assuming you pass all those, then you gain all
this experience and from a different department
with different ways of doing it, different ways
of thinking. So what is your perception of national
reciprocity, of course, with some sort of, you
know, orientation academy put in for each department?
I'm 100 % in favor of that. Why it's not being
done is absolute bullshit in my mind. My buddy
Steve Gillespie, retired lieutenant from the
FDNY, majority of his career spent in special
operations at Squad 41, retires, goes down to
North Charleston and becomes their training director
for North Charleston Fire Department. Has to
go through everything again, challenge every
test, and take every goddamn test before he could
be a fireman, let alone an officer. South Carolina.
What a load of bullshit that is, right? This
is a guy who has seen it, done it in the busiest
companies in the world, literally. And now you're
telling him, well, that's not how we do it down
here, son. Well, clearly you need people to come.
And in a world like today, when I was younger,
you didn't travel around the world. You didn't
travel around the country. We weren't nearly
the vagrants we are today, right? So we migrate
all over the country now. My stepson lives in
Newport Beach, California. My son lives in Thibodeau,
Louisiana. My daughter lives here in New Jersey.
We're all over the country. It's not the good
old boy system, and it's got to be broken. And
the reciprocity is what's holding back a lot
of places from getting some absolute stud firemen,
right? A lot of great firemen. I know a lot of
people during COVID. They were looking. They're
like, we're getting out of the Northeast. Screw
this, right? Florida started hiring the cops.
What did they immediately do? They took cops
and they gave them reciprocity with just what
you're talking about. Why we're not doing that
in the fire service is absolute nonsense. Because,
again, I know volunteer firemen, maybe here right
in the town I'm sitting in, in Ocean County,
New Jersey, who have got their Pro Board Fire
1, Pro Board Fire 2, National Registry EMT. SIVO,
all their ICS courses that are all national courses,
right? They're fully certed out. Well, you can't
come to Florida or you can't go to California
because you, unless you take all our stuff all
over again. Fucking nonsense. It's absolute nonsense,
right? I agree. Do your own academy, you know,
certainly do an entry level. Listen, you've got
all your certs. We love it, but we need to teach
you how we do it in. you know Jacksonville Florida
or how we do it in in you know Baton Rouge Louisiana
or wherever it may be you know Dayton Ohio so
yeah but why would you make them start from scratch
go through that whole investment all over again
it makes no sense and all you're doing is is
slowing down your own process it's just and Florida
from what I understand is probably the hardest
out of everybody followed by California which
I don't know if it's state training directors,
state fire marshals that are not seeing the light
or we always did it this way, so we're going
to continue to do it this way. Well, if I always
did things stupidly, why would I want to change
that? And yeah, you're absolutely right. It fires
me up to no end. It really does. My son was very
fortunate. He had gone through Fire 1 in Jersey,
left Jersey. got on the job in South Carolina,
went through Fire 1, Fire 2, got all his stuff
there, pro -boarded out, left South Carolina,
went to Louisiana, and they accepted it all because
it was pro -boards and it met their standard.
And the only thing he had to do was I think his
National Registry EMT was a little different.
He had to test on something. But that was it,
and he was on the job. And that's what they did.
They put him through their recruit academy, but
it was a shortened recruit academy. And then
laterally, when he went from where he was in
Louisiana to Baton Rouge, they accepted all of
his certs. And then they put him through their
probationary period and so forth. And I think
that's what he's in. But we're missing out. We're
really missing out. I mean, even my volunteer
company in New Egypt, I know a couple of the
young kids there that just finished Fire 1 and
2. They're interested in leaving and going somewhere
different around the country. And one of them
was asking me about that. Go, man, go. Do it.
Don't let geography hold you back. And our reciprocity
and certification processes should not be a hurdle
getting good people. It's just foolishness. Yeah,
I agree completely. And I've said this a few
times now. I'm a product of exactly that. I was
a Florida certified firefighter and Anaheim,
California said, we'll accept your certs. Now,
I don't know if that's statewide. I think Anaheim
was just like, well, I don't care. You know,
we're going to take that. And you see a lot of
laterals in California, especially. And that
actually wasn't even a lateral hiring. I went
in as a new hire. And I think everyone, every
other one of my classmates was not only California,
but they were local California. But yeah, they
took mine. And then the next they had the hiring
freeze after the crash. And then the next hiring,
they said, must have Academy from California.
So I was then disqualified because I'd moved
away from coming back, even though I'd worn their
uniform for three and a half years. So it shows
that a department can do a really good thing
or a fucking ridiculous thing. So if Anaheim
can say, no, we'll take you, then, you know,
do departments have the ability to say, I don't
care what the state says, we'll accept your service.
And again, in the process. you know that hopefully
then would open the floodgates for the states
to just say all right you know we'll just accept
it now because it doesn't make any sense whatsoever
of course you need to have standardization which
is pro board which is national registry but after
that we know what excuse me welcoming you know
we'll train you our way we'll put you on a probation
because we don't know you very well and then
you come out the other end because i mean you
have i was florida's trained so we're talking
Even in Hialeah, which is a phenomenal, phenomenal
academy when I got the orientation with them.
I mean, that was like freaking buds on steroids
for firefighters when I was there. But we were
still throwing ladders the academy way. Lay them
flat, walk them up to the wall, pull them out,
rotate them. I get to Anaheim and then, all right,
you know, everyone's shouldering the ladder,
sticking it. Do all these, you know, roof, you
know, ops and talking about bowstring structures
and panelized roofs. And I was like, oh, shit.
I've got a lot to learn because we didn't learn
any of this, but that's okay. They set the bar
super high. I had to work my ass off, but I made
the transition and I ended up being an Anaheim
firefighter, which I'm very proud of. But that
was the very thing that we're talking about,
reciprocity between two states. It's absolute
foolishness that we're not all on that same page.
That's just, again, like you said, there's nuances,
obviously. you know i'm going to do something
a little different in hamilton than somebody's
going to do in some other city so we want to
make sure that they're trained to our standard
as far as how we do it how we operate our sops
you know whether we're laying in or we're laying
out or you know what stretches we're doing what
what hose packs we run all that obviously needs
to be the education process has to be there but
if they've got the foundation that's a piece
of cake That shouldn't be a problem. And like
you said, if there's a probationary period, if
the guy's a turd, you wash him out. That's how
this works. In an organization or in an overall
fire service that says that we're struggling
to get people, goddamn, don't make it even harder
on ourselves. I just don't get it. And again,
bureaucracy, the more layers of bureaucracy you
have. Whether it be in local government, state
government, especially, it feels like state government.
I know here in New Jersey, state government,
it's very, very tough to deal with. In all aspects,
every aspect, not just the fire service, but
the fire service too. Some of the rules that
come out, you just look at it and you go, you've
got to be kidding me. And then you see who made
the rule and you go, that was a shitbag in his
fire department before he got this bureaucratic
position. Now he's going to be up there telling
me how to do it when he was scared to stretch
a line? Great. it is it is there's certainly
a bunch of those names i'd love to put on record
but but yeah it the reciprocity thing's a big
deal it is and it's simple it's a simple fix
these aren't hard problems to address these again
do you have the will to fix it or don't you doesn't
seem that hard no this is what i'm realizing
like the solutions are simple you look at the
obesity crisis you know going back to cooking
real food in schools putting pe programs back
in pedestrianizing downtowns bolstering local
farmers to make that clean food you know close
to town um you know the the uh subway system
so people are more prone to be walking around
there's so many things that are so so obvious
and then even with you know p fast and other
stuff getting away from everything being wrapped
in 10 layers of plastic And going, I can go into
a grocery store with a cloth bag and put my fruit
and vegetables in there. You know what I mean?
I mean, everything is just, how did we do it
a hundred years ago? That will take us 80 % of
the way. And then which parts of modern medicine
and technology are truly advancing our lives?
All right, well, let's move the needle on there.
So, you know, you've regressed to make the human
healthier in the uniform, but then you've advanced
through better bunker gear, masks, helmets, et
cetera, to allow us to perform better. But it
always comes down to, you know, is it is it a
self -serving thing or is it truly for the mission
itself? Right. So, again, you know, are you worried
about how you look as a firefighter? Are you
worried about how you perform as a firefighter?
I kind of I kind of I'm worried about both at
this point. But food packaging and PFAS, you
know, that was something that Dr. Stapleton spoke
about yesterday. The amount of PFAS found in
so much food packaging. And she said that. places
like McDonald's actually of all places who cook,
you know, the unhealthiest shit. And I know I
eat too much of it at times. Right. But even
they said, our packaging is a problem because
it's in beef. We have beef us that, you know,
we have these coatings in this, we need to change
it. And they've, and they've since made it the
effort to do that. So what you might say about
RFK, you know, listen, I might not agree with
everything, but At least it's on a national stage
now, and he's bringing points to light that many
of us didn't know about, didn't think about.
Whether he's right, wrong, or indifferent, at
least the conversations are being had, and now
we can debate them. And that's what I like about
what's going on in the country today. Lots of
things I don't like, but that's definitely one
of the things I do like. And we as a fire service
need to have these debates and have these honest
conversations with one another. We don't have
to like each other. just like in the firehouse
there were guys i worked with that i did not
like at all i tried to respect their opinion
until they proved to me that i shouldn't and
i tried to show respect to them as a person until
they proved to me i shouldn't but if we have
these open conversations the will like i say
the will it's worth doing you know and i've been
saying this for years there's two things that
mean a lot to me right If it's worth doing, it's
worth doing passionately. Do it with passion.
My fire service career, I've been way more than
I should when it comes to being all in. I screwed
up a lot of my personal life. Again, I'm very
blessed that I got it back, that I still have
my kids, that I have a great relationship with
both my kids and now my stepson, that I was able
to remarry somebody and have so much different
relationship. But I had those chances because
I was so damn passionate about the fire service.
It's all I cared about. It was my ego. It was
the fire service. It was all those things. And
I believe that you have to be passionate about
anything you're going to do to be successful.
I'm quite sure that all of these very wealthy
and very successful folks in industry and business,
they didn't go into it half -assed. they went
into it both feet i'm going to make this happen
i'm going to lay it on the line and the next
thing you know we all know who elon is or we
all know who lover hatem bill gates is or you
know what i mean these are the they did it with
passion so if you're going to do it if it's worth
doing in your mind it's worth doing passionately
and that's how the fire service has to be because
it's life and death yours and more importantly
somebody else's right and the other thing that
that i i really live by and I don't know that
I realized, again, my mom says you can't put
an old head on young shoulders. So as I've aged,
I don't know if that's an old Yiddish saying
or what, but that's her saying. And I think as
I've aged, I've understood more that my life
should be impactful, right? I shouldn't just
coast along. I want to make an impact and a positive
impact, not a negative one. I've made enough
negative ones in my life. I want to make a positive
impact on people. And my choice and my path for
that is clearly the fire service. It's all I
know. It's all I've ever done since I was a 14
-year -old kid. When I realized I couldn't play
Major League Baseball, a 5 '8", 150 -pound Jewish
kid from New Egypt, New Jersey, wasn't making
the big leagues. I figured it out, and I became
a fireman. I'd love to go back to that 150, 160
range. And I'm probably shrinking in height too.
But the goal should be to make an impact, a positive
impact. And I think I see guys who are out there
on the teaching circuit, young firemen who are
getting involved in teaching who are doing that.
And I'll even – I don't want to pump up their
egos too big, but a young guy in Texas named
Donovan Carrasco. I watch him and he's so passionate
about what he's doing. He doesn't have a ton
of experience. Doesn't work in a real busy fire
department. Passionate about his family, passionate
about what he's doing, passionate about the job,
right? And trying to make that positive impact.
And I see so many of these guys. That's the blessing
of being able to travel around. Look at in Florida
what Basil Ibrahim does. My God, what an impactful
man he is and what a passionate person he is.
you don't have to agree with everything he says
because when he says it man he means it and you
may not always agree with it but i got to tell
you i look at him and i go wow that guy if he's
not inspiring young firemen to be better firemen
and and when i say firemen it's women it's men
you know i use that term as a term of endearment
if i don't call you a fireman then i probably
don't like you very much but i watch him and
i go What an impactful person, right? What a
passionate man. In everything he does, you just
see it ooze out of him. And to me, that's the
fire service. And that's what we should be. That's
what we should aspire to be. And I hope that
that's what guys are looking up to. It may not
be me. I know I'm in the twilight. But a guy
like him, a guy like Donovan, there's so many
others. You see some of these other young minds
in the fire service. Nick Papa. From up in Connecticut,
another fabulous guy who does great instruction
and has written a book. And these are the folks
that when I watch them, I go, yep, they got it.
The fire service is in damn good hands. And I'm
proud of it. I hope that, you know, I want my
son to be that way. My daughter, whenever she's
going into the psychology field, she's just started
another new college. And I finish up her bachelor's
there and then move on. she wants to get involved
in research and i just want her to be passionate
about it and and make an impact on somebody's
life make positive impact that's that's the way
we pay it forward people people gave it to me
i was mentored by great people and even i learned
a lot from shitty people but i learned more from
the great ones and my job is to pass that on
and what you're doing with thousands of episodes
behind the shield it's impactful and it's leaving
that that legacy for them to look at and go and
learn from. And it makes the world a better place.
We're better for it. I can't make the whole world
a better place. I understand my lane, right?
Like my wife says all the time, we always got
to stay in our lane, right? She's an amazing
field hockey coach, an amazing mentor to these
young girls coming through the programs. And
I look at it and I'm so proud of what I see.
I'm proud of what I see with my kids, how successful
they are. I'm staying in my lane in the fire
service. It's what I know. I'm okay at it. I've
made a career out of this. And I'm blessed. Absolutely.
I want to go to some quick closing questions.
I think I asked you them before. I'd be interested
to see if it's changed a little bit in the last
few years. The first one I'd love to ask, is
there a book or are there books that you'd love
to recommend? It can be related to our discussion
today or completely unrelated. Goodness, you
know, I don't read as much as I should. I try
to read on the planes and I'm flying a lot. And
I've buried it up. I like to read a lot of military
history type stuff. Although right now I've been
sitting on the beach reading the history of the
1980 world champion Phillies. So it's been my
passion here lately. I think there's a lot of
good leadership stuff out there. Some self -leadership
stuff. it's funny i go back to a lot um it's
our ship and it's your ship you know the uh abramashop
stuff i really like those i think those are good
for aspiring people coming up um i think if you're
studying and you want to be a student of the
fire service i i it's hard to believe the man's
in his 90s but vinnie dunn is still pumping out
books and they're still applicable So, you know,
he and Chief Norman's books, when I look at a
young fireman who should be studying, I would
certainly look at that. I would look at Anthony
Avillo's books for studying. If you want to understand
strategies and tactics, I think they're very,
very good. But yeah, there's another one called
Dirty Work, I believe it is. I believe that's
what it was called. And it was a leadership book
from a guy who worked. He was a fed. He was in
law enforcement, federal law enforcement, and
he grew up in West Virginia. And I believe it's
dirty work. It's literally on my bookshelf right
near my desk at home. And I gave that to all
my officers when I was the chief because I wanted
them to read his idea on leadership and how to
run basically small groups and so forth. And
I think that's a really good one. I'd have to
look it up again. And honestly, I just finished
reading your book. And I read the first one and
thoroughly enjoyed it. But I just read the second
one. I got to go on Amazon and Google and all
that stuff and put a review in because I got
to tell you, that's an impactful book. It made
me think about things I did wrong in my career,
in my life, in my personal life. Things I didn't
even realize were probably caused by whatever
I was dealing with at work and I was taking it
out on everybody else. You know, the suicidal
ideation, everything, it was all there. But honestly,
it made me think a lot. And I recommended that.
I recommended it to my son. I recommended it
to a lot of people. Thank you for that. Cause
that's something that I would absolutely. And
I can, I appreciate it. And I hope the next project
with it really takes off. Cause that'll be so
freaking cool. Yeah. Yeah. No, the, the, the
TV show, there's a lot of irons in the fire.
Cause this is the thing. I mean, I wanted to
write a book for the readers, but ultimately
knowing how hard it was for me to read when I
was in it. sleep deprived and you know stressed
and single father and all that yeah you know
the netflix the streaming world is so good now
so yeah get i'm i'm super excited to get this
on screens i think it will be the story itself
will be something that will hopefully be a mirror
to whoever's you know watching and then there's
going to be a parallel project that's going to
provide almost like behind the scenes real world
solutions so that the person's not just watching
a show there'll be this other thing after where
they're like oh So I can do something about the
thing that I'm really struggling with. And that's
never been done before. So I want, I'm going
to keep it a little cryptic there, but I give
it all the way. But you know, my thing is, you
know, like I said, reverse 1984, you know, what
if you use the very screen that was being used
to divide us recently to actually start healing
us. you know the story is the hook you know and
i've had so many people say i got to chapter
four and i had to put it down go to counseling
whatever and it wasn't that it traumatized them
like you said it brought things up and that's
that's amazing it did so it did there were times
where i had to close it and wipe some tears and
all right i'll read again in a couple days you
know but uh it not i won't say no books do that
for me because some do there was actually a little
chapter i read tulsi gabbard's book the other
day while I was on the beach. And one of the
stories that hit me really hard was she talked
about one of the first soldiers that she lost
when she was in Iraq. And he was an American
Samoan sergeant. And if you know anything about
the Samoan people, I'm very blessed. I get to
go there every couple of years and train them.
But this gentleman was a sergeant in the army
and was killed, obviously, on a duty in Iraq.
But when she was describing it and describing
his family and describing some of the relationships,
it just opened something up that I didn't know
was there. And same thing. I'm like, all right,
I'm going to go jump in the ocean now and chill
out a little bit, maybe swim a little bit and
think twice about it. So, yeah. Yeah, it's powerful.
I think if you can do that with written word
on a page, then you. have a scene with good acting
and good you know stunts and special effects
and the the music behind it you know and you
know you're less likely to close that book if
you're watching a show i think you just kind
of you know soldier on um yeah i'm excited about
the potential so we shall see it will happen
all right well speaking of that what about films
and documentaries that you love oh man i i i
love uh i've always enjoyed watching war movies
or military type movies um so you know obviously
the band of brothers stuff and and um flags of
our fathers i i i use some flags of our fathers
stuff in one of my presentations that i do um
talking about teamwork and brotherhood and things
of that nature uh i really did enjoy that um
i like a lot of stupid slapstick stuff from the
80s just because that's my 12 year old personality
still So I can still watch, you know, Animal
House and, you know, the Blues Brothers and Smokey
and the Bandit and laugh like a little kid and
recite all the lines, you know. We used to have,
we used to, any probie we had come in the firehouse
after dinner, we made them watch one of those
movies every night. So this way they would understand
half the shit we were saying in the rig. But
yeah, and I like some of the old classics. You
know, Casablanca is still one of my favorites.
Oh, taking in more work. Second time. There we
go. Well, just over two hours. Yeah. Brilliant.
All right. Well, the next question, is there
a person that you recommend to come on this podcast
as a guest to speak to the first responders,
military and associated professions of the world?
So, yeah, I'll tell you a guy who is one of the
most dynamic people I know and one of my dearest
friends in the world. And that's a gentleman
named Carl Haddon. I think you and he would really
hit it off. He's an incredibly humble fellow
who now lives out in the Rocky Mountains of Idaho
and still does a lot of training, still writes
for Fire Engineering and Fire Rescue Magazine.
But he was Roger Penske's right -hand man at
Penske Racing and then became basically a chief
of safety for NASCAR for a long time. Grew up
in California. uh there's not much he didn't
do when it came comes to the entertainment industry
he's done it all met him all i mean literally
you know just one of the most dear friends that
my family has and um tremendous tremendous fire
service educator to this day again really passionate
really bright one of the most well -rounded people
i've ever met and uh He can tell you some cool
stories about some entertainers that he had a
lot of interaction with over the years. Pretty
awesome. I was scrolling through my messages,
and I saw that you'd recommended that when we
spoke last, which was probably, what, two, three
years ago. So I've still got that contact in
my phone. So I need to take this as a sign to
actually make that connection. So if you see
him, you're able to let him know that I'll be.
you know, reaching out, I'd love to get him on.
Yeah, I definitely would. And I mean, there's
so many great people in the emergency services
today that are doing so many great things. But
I think his perspective is pretty cool. He sees
the big picture beyond what others see. And I
know he's reined me in on a lot of stuff in my
life. Yeah. Fantastic. All right. Well, the last
question before everyone knows where they can
find you and On Scene Training Associates. What
do you do to decompress these days? So my wife
has been really helping me as she's standing
over here, has helped me with this, right? So
I became a scuba diver several years ago. Not
a very confident one, but I got my open water
cert down in Cozumel and we dove now in the Keys
and Hawaii. And our last trip was to Roatan,
Honduras. Uh, so that is, we don't do it as much
as certainly she wants to, or I'd like to, but
working on that a little more. And, uh, I've
taken golf back up again, which I don't know
if that decompresses me or makes me stress worse
because I suck. But, um, uh, again, she's a very
good golfer. So she's got patience with me. Uh,
so I, but I, I enjoy it, right? It's time away
from the fire service. It's time out in nature.
It's testing me. It's making me do some physical
things. getting good exercise in and you know
that we can be alone and enjoy something together
not tied to our professions um so those have
been the two probably the biggest things uh trying
to get back to the gym which has not been easy
but i'm committing myself to getting back to
that a little more to decompress and and feel
a little better about myself and um and really
that's that's kind of it you know that those
are my Those are my keys right now. Very fortunate.
Brilliant. I'm sure she's next to you wondering
why this conversation is taking two and a half
hours. So let's give you the final question.
So people listening, where can they find you
and On Scene Training? We're on all the social
medias, on Instagram and Facebook. I don't use
X that much because I just don't think about
it that often. But LinkedIn, you can find me
on there. On -scene training is just www .onscentraining
.com. And we're very fortunate. You can reach
us at any of those places. I put up a lot of
stuff on our social media when I can and share
a lot of other people's that I think is really
good stuff and certainly give them all the credit.
But, yeah, that's it. We're at a lot of the conferences.
In fact, I have a big gang of my guys right now
at the Jimmy Ellis Conference in Pittsburgh.
They're doing Red Under Fire basically stuff
this weekend. And we're doing an awful, we're
going to be pretty solid. And you can find us
at the Joey Dean Memorial Foundation conferences
the first week. I believe it's like the 6th,
7th, 8th, something like that in November in
Long Island. For any fireman who wants to get
hands -on training and rub elbows with some of
the greatest people I've ever met, that's a good
one. And it's very inexpensive considering. you
can get yourself there hotels aren't terrible
and i think the courses for the weekend are maybe
350 for a whole weekend so it's really well done
and all about that foundation and then we'll
do it again in houston in uh i'm sure it'll be
march or somewhere in there yep Fantastic. Well,
I want to thank you again. We've, as I said,
talked for two and a half hours. I could talk
for another two and a half hours. It's such a
powerful perspective. I mean, I spent a very
short career in the fire service, 14 years, but
yours, as you said, from 14 years old to now,
I mean, that's a hell of a career and you've
got the volunteer and the career perspective.
So I want to thank you so much for yet again,
coming on the Behind the Shield podcast, being
so generous with your time. And yeah. Thank you.
It's an absolute honor to be back with you. And,
you know, I really admire everything you've done
and what you continue to do. Thank you for all
the things.