WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.480 I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new 00:00:02.480 --> 00:00:04.559 sponsor for the Behind the Shield podcast and 00:00:04.559 --> 00:00:08.039 that is Rescue One CBD. For any of you who have 00:00:08.039 --> 00:00:10.179 listened to this podcast for the last eight years 00:00:10.179 --> 00:00:12.199 you would have heard my own personal journey 00:00:12.199 --> 00:00:15.199 from using prescription pills after a knee surgery 00:00:15.199 --> 00:00:18.780 to finding CBD and having incredible success 00:00:18.780 --> 00:00:21.820 with that. Now I'm sure everyone listening is 00:00:21.820 --> 00:00:24.519 fully aware that we have an epidemic when it 00:00:24.519 --> 00:00:27.980 comes to the use of nicotine pouches, dip and 00:00:27.980 --> 00:00:31.449 other products. Now to combat this, John from 00:00:31.449 --> 00:00:34.590 Rescue 1 has developed a nicotine -free pouch 00:00:34.590 --> 00:00:37.890 called the Rip Pouch. 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Now, as I mentioned before, they 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:12.439 are offering you, the audience, 20 % off your 00:03:12.439 --> 00:03:15.860 purchase if you use the code SHIELD. That's S 00:03:15.860 --> 00:03:20.919 -H -I -E -L -D at bubsnaturals .com. And finally, 00:03:20.939 --> 00:03:22.639 if you want to hear more about their products 00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:25.840 and Glenn's powerful story, listen to episode 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:31.919 558 with co -founder Sean Lake. Welcome to the 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:33.740 Pioneer Shield podcast. As always, my name is 00:03:33.740 --> 00:03:35.599 James Gearing. And this week, it is my absolute 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:38.520 honor to welcome on the show, sports scientist 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:42.819 and clinical sports psychologist, Dr. John Sullivan. 00:03:43.689 --> 00:03:46.210 So in this conversation, we discuss a host of 00:03:46.210 --> 00:03:48.789 topics from his work with some of the most elite 00:03:48.789 --> 00:03:53.009 sports and tactical athletes on the planet, forging 00:03:53.009 --> 00:03:57.069 performance, the importance of sleep, loss of 00:03:57.069 --> 00:04:00.849 identity, the perils of social media, and so 00:04:00.849 --> 00:04:03.650 much more. Now, before we get to this incredible 00:04:03.650 --> 00:04:06.430 conversation, as I say every week, please just 00:04:06.430 --> 00:04:09.150 take a moment, go to whichever app you listen 00:04:09.150 --> 00:04:12.539 to this on, subscribe to the show. Leave feedback 00:04:12.539 --> 00:04:16.500 and leave a rating. Every single five -star rating 00:04:16.500 --> 00:04:19.480 truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:23.180 it easier for others to find. And this is a free 00:04:23.180 --> 00:04:27.879 library of well over 1 ,100 episodes now. So 00:04:27.879 --> 00:04:31.399 all I ask in return is that you help share these 00:04:31.399 --> 00:04:34.500 incredible men and women's stories so I can get 00:04:34.500 --> 00:04:37.819 them to every single person on planet Earth who 00:04:37.819 --> 00:04:41.060 needs to hear them. So with that being said... 00:04:41.389 --> 00:04:45.730 I welcome to the show Dr. John Sullivan. Enjoy. 00:05:04.810 --> 00:05:07.329 Well, John, I want to start by saying two things. 00:05:07.449 --> 00:05:10.089 Firstly, thank you to our mutual friend, Jeff 00:05:10.089 --> 00:05:12.129 Nichols, for making this connection, another 00:05:12.129 --> 00:05:14.509 phenomenal human being. And secondly, I want 00:05:14.509 --> 00:05:16.290 to welcome you onto the Behind the Shield podcast 00:05:16.290 --> 00:05:19.670 today. It's a great pleasure to be here, and 00:05:19.670 --> 00:05:21.589 I appreciate the invite, and I appreciate we 00:05:21.589 --> 00:05:26.990 know that great human in kind. Fantastic. Absolutely. 00:05:27.009 --> 00:05:29.290 Well, first question, where on planet Earth are 00:05:29.290 --> 00:05:34.420 we finding you today? you're finding me uh uh 00:05:34.420 --> 00:05:36.980 in auckland new zealand and actually be more 00:05:36.980 --> 00:05:40.439 specific torbay right near the water uh so the 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:42.680 other side of the world as we would say down 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:45.839 under absolutely now where correct me if i'm 00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:47.680 wrong where is torbay because that sounds familiar 00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:49.879 i went i did a whole like north island all the 00:05:49.879 --> 00:05:52.980 way through the south island trip um like 2020 00:05:52.980 --> 00:05:57.319 so it's not 2020 2000 so uh where's torbay So 00:05:57.319 --> 00:06:00.160 it's about a 40 -minute drive heading north, 00:06:00.379 --> 00:06:03.360 and then you would end up on the coast. So 40 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:06.019 -minute drive from city center Auckland. And 00:06:06.019 --> 00:06:08.620 so Auckland has a number of suburbs that surround 00:06:08.620 --> 00:06:12.000 it. And so really where I'm at is quite a large 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:15.120 sailing community because there's quite a number 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:17.300 of yacht clubs. And Auckland is known as the 00:06:17.300 --> 00:06:20.779 city of sails. So once you're around Auckland 00:06:20.779 --> 00:06:24.410 or near the bays where I'm at. Yeah, that's alive 00:06:24.410 --> 00:06:27.610 and well. You're going to see boats galore. Absolutely. 00:06:27.850 --> 00:06:31.970 I've said that I love the culture there in New 00:06:31.970 --> 00:06:34.189 Zealand. When I went there in the year 2000, 00:06:34.470 --> 00:06:37.689 it was so clean. Everyone was so friendly. And 00:06:37.689 --> 00:06:39.629 I traveled around the world. I'd been to Fiji 00:06:39.629 --> 00:06:42.750 by that point and learned about some of the colonization 00:06:42.750 --> 00:06:46.310 from the UK and how the dynamic was different, 00:06:46.350 --> 00:06:49.569 like in Fiji. Laws are put in that they can't 00:06:49.569 --> 00:06:52.290 sell Fijian land to protect the farmers from, 00:06:52.290 --> 00:06:54.290 you know, more astute business people coming 00:06:54.290 --> 00:06:57.389 in. But in New Zealand, I remember it being a 00:06:57.389 --> 00:07:01.269 lot more kind of equal. And I can just see these 00:07:01.269 --> 00:07:04.290 British, you know, sailors arriving on the shores 00:07:04.290 --> 00:07:06.310 and the Maori showing up and them being like, 00:07:06.410 --> 00:07:10.089 hello, would you like to be friends? Because 00:07:10.089 --> 00:07:11.730 they look at them going, they're not going to 00:07:11.730 --> 00:07:16.110 be them. There's no way in hell. I would agree 00:07:16.110 --> 00:07:17.550 with you. I think one of the things I've been 00:07:17.550 --> 00:07:19.930 impressed being here for three years is that 00:07:19.930 --> 00:07:24.529 equality or working towards equal, right? We 00:07:24.529 --> 00:07:27.269 know a colonization, it wasn't perfect, and we 00:07:27.269 --> 00:07:29.610 don't have to stay anchored there. We can keep 00:07:29.610 --> 00:07:33.250 moving it forward. And I've been impressed by, 00:07:33.350 --> 00:07:35.689 you know, a nation that can admit to its first 00:07:35.689 --> 00:07:38.589 sins can get clear on a lot of those sins going 00:07:38.589 --> 00:07:41.189 forward. So it's an impressive place that way. 00:07:41.230 --> 00:07:43.750 I would agree with you. um there is no doubt 00:07:43.750 --> 00:07:46.209 there's a merging of the cultures almost like 00:07:46.209 --> 00:07:49.689 i've seen in another space i call home ireland 00:07:49.689 --> 00:07:53.529 where you'll see you know the the peace and the 00:07:53.529 --> 00:07:55.709 wanting to keep that northern ireland but also 00:07:55.709 --> 00:07:57.769 the sharing of language and bringing language 00:07:57.769 --> 00:08:00.709 back so you'll see gaelic and english well here 00:08:00.709 --> 00:08:03.370 you'll you'll see a lot more english and maori 00:08:03.370 --> 00:08:07.259 and so it's a wonderful blend absolutely I was 00:08:07.259 --> 00:08:08.699 just having a conversation with someone the other 00:08:08.699 --> 00:08:10.959 day about that very thing, like being British. 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:14.759 Firstly, understanding that only a small group 00:08:14.759 --> 00:08:16.980 of people benefited from all these things, slavery, 00:08:17.220 --> 00:08:19.199 colonization, et cetera. If you look at British 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:21.860 history, we were poor most of the time, the average 00:08:21.860 --> 00:08:25.860 person. Secondly, when you had the humility to 00:08:25.860 --> 00:08:27.560 look back and go, yeah, some of the things that 00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:30.319 we did were horrible. And let's not hang on to 00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:32.580 it and be victims about it either. But you have 00:08:32.580 --> 00:08:34.519 to acknowledge it. You have to understand that 00:08:34.519 --> 00:08:36.700 it had an impact, even in the Middle East. I 00:08:36.700 --> 00:08:38.039 mean, all these different conflicts that we're 00:08:38.039 --> 00:08:40.799 seeing, that, like you said, is when then you 00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:42.580 can finally move forward. But if you're beating 00:08:42.580 --> 00:08:44.759 your chest and saying you're the greatest nation 00:08:44.759 --> 00:08:46.980 and ignoring the bad things in your culture, 00:08:47.100 --> 00:08:51.299 you're never, ever going to progress. There's 00:08:51.299 --> 00:08:54.440 a gap there. You're absolutely right. It isn't 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:57.320 healthy also to be victimized by your history. 00:08:57.500 --> 00:09:00.740 I mean, we live life going forward, but we learn 00:09:00.740 --> 00:09:04.460 life by looking back. But to go forward would 00:09:04.460 --> 00:09:06.340 mean you have to acknowledge things, you have 00:09:06.340 --> 00:09:08.639 to find connection points, you have to find understanding. 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:15.539 And we can't be necessarily making the past correct. 00:09:16.169 --> 00:09:18.549 But we can make things better in the forward 00:09:18.549 --> 00:09:22.210 position. And I agree with you 100%. I think 00:09:22.210 --> 00:09:24.710 that's one of the things I really enjoy about 00:09:24.710 --> 00:09:27.350 being in New Zealand when I look at it, is that 00:09:27.350 --> 00:09:29.850 there are opportunities. And although we're at 00:09:29.850 --> 00:09:32.049 the end of the world, there's a lot of learnings 00:09:32.049 --> 00:09:34.129 if we just look over our fence line, no matter 00:09:34.129 --> 00:09:36.330 where we live. So I'm a US citizen, a Canadian 00:09:36.330 --> 00:09:39.309 citizen, an Irish citizen. And I've always encouraged 00:09:39.309 --> 00:09:41.289 people to kind of look over your fence line. 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:43.679 No one can be doing everything right. No one 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:45.840 can have all the best ideas. But if we look over 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:47.820 the fence and learn from others, there's greater 00:09:47.820 --> 00:09:50.899 opportunities than just doing kind of this. And 00:09:50.899 --> 00:09:54.580 we keep our focal point just on me and a little 00:09:54.580 --> 00:09:57.240 bit of the we. We can learn a lot from others. 00:09:57.899 --> 00:09:59.940 Absolutely. I think we said this when we spoke 00:09:59.940 --> 00:10:02.559 last time, but as I've progressed through this, 00:10:02.620 --> 00:10:05.240 I've learned and spoken to people that have spearheaded. 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:08.620 prison the amazing prison systems they have in 00:10:08.620 --> 00:10:11.159 in norway and the decriminalization of drugs 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:13.960 in portugal and the finnish education system 00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:16.740 and when you have the humility to say hey you're 00:10:16.740 --> 00:10:18.720 doing this really well can you show us what to 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:20.960 do it's that you know the rising tide lifts all 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:27.970 ships and we all benefit from it That quote serves 00:10:27.970 --> 00:10:30.490 all of us when we first understand it. I think 00:10:30.490 --> 00:10:32.529 the piece you're talking about here, too, is 00:10:32.529 --> 00:10:34.909 anchored in something that often people think 00:10:34.909 --> 00:10:37.409 is the past, which is philosophy. And what you're 00:10:37.409 --> 00:10:39.370 talking about is intellectual humility, that 00:10:39.370 --> 00:10:42.490 we all need to feel comfortable we know what 00:10:42.490 --> 00:10:44.809 we know, but also feel comfortable with what 00:10:44.809 --> 00:10:48.330 we don't know. and pursue those gaps or seek 00:10:48.330 --> 00:10:50.929 out the meaning of those gaps, whether we want 00:10:50.929 --> 00:10:53.190 to become an expert or just seek an expert opinion 00:10:53.190 --> 00:10:56.690 to form our understanding. Because if we're just 00:10:56.690 --> 00:11:00.190 kind of going with our own thoughts, we're really 00:11:00.190 --> 00:11:02.350 susceptible as human beings to confirmation bias, 00:11:02.509 --> 00:11:04.850 believing what we want to believe. And then we're 00:11:04.850 --> 00:11:07.990 really good at doubling down on that when we're 00:11:07.990 --> 00:11:10.049 confronted with different information. And that's 00:11:10.049 --> 00:11:13.730 called belief perseverance. And so we've got 00:11:13.730 --> 00:11:16.429 to have intellectual humility. It's such a grounding 00:11:16.429 --> 00:11:19.129 point. Philosophy has much to teach science and 00:11:19.129 --> 00:11:21.889 humanity. It is not a thing of the past, having 00:11:21.889 --> 00:11:24.590 trained in epistemology. It really does inform 00:11:24.590 --> 00:11:28.029 how we see the world in an indisciplined way. 00:11:28.830 --> 00:11:30.850 It's funny. I've never heard that term, belief 00:11:30.850 --> 00:11:33.250 perseverance, but that's exactly what I've endured 00:11:33.250 --> 00:11:37.750 whilst trying to be one voice of changing the 00:11:37.750 --> 00:11:39.230 work week in the fire service. And we're going 00:11:39.230 --> 00:11:41.809 to take a deep dive into all things performance 00:11:41.809 --> 00:11:44.879 and sleep in a little bit. Getting them to realize 00:11:44.879 --> 00:11:46.960 that the 56 hour work week that they've been 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:49.940 working is one of the biggest reasons why we've 00:11:49.940 --> 00:11:52.480 seen our profession collapse. Losing people, 00:11:52.600 --> 00:11:55.519 losing marriages, losing children, not to mention 00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:57.620 the inability to save when we're supposed to 00:11:57.620 --> 00:12:01.019 be performing. But we're so indoctrinated in 00:12:01.019 --> 00:12:03.679 this kind of, you know, almost like this hero 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:06.379 mentality that we can do more with less over 00:12:06.379 --> 00:12:09.360 and over and over again, that even when we finally. 00:12:09.950 --> 00:12:12.190 had enough information to say, Hey, this is the 00:12:12.190 --> 00:12:14.269 problem. And here's one of the most powerful 00:12:14.269 --> 00:12:18.009 solutions. I've had so much resistance and it's 00:12:18.009 --> 00:12:20.230 changed now, Florida, we're having this revolution. 00:12:20.330 --> 00:12:23.250 I'm so happy to say that, but I literally would 00:12:23.250 --> 00:12:24.590 have people that would fight and you say, no, 00:12:24.649 --> 00:12:26.710 I want to hang on to my 56 hour work week. I 00:12:26.710 --> 00:12:28.789 don't want to do that 42 hour work week, men 00:12:28.789 --> 00:12:31.070 and women that are not going home to their children 00:12:31.070 --> 00:12:34.490 because of this broken system. So that term specifically 00:12:34.490 --> 00:12:39.269 really resonates deeply with me. It does with 00:12:39.269 --> 00:12:42.750 me now as well for a whole host of reasons. That 00:12:42.750 --> 00:12:45.669 whole idea from a psychological standpoint has 00:12:45.669 --> 00:12:48.370 been around for a while, but I think its meaning 00:12:48.370 --> 00:12:51.870 is even bigger now because of the decay of our 00:12:51.870 --> 00:12:56.230 information ecosystems. I'm old enough to remember. 00:12:56.409 --> 00:12:59.309 I won't put you in that same space, but where 00:12:59.309 --> 00:13:01.909 news was really not an hour. There was very little 00:13:01.909 --> 00:13:04.679 commentary. It was just the facts. And the facts 00:13:04.679 --> 00:13:07.820 were agreed upon, which created a stability in 00:13:07.820 --> 00:13:10.320 society. Now, the best case scenario due to our 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:14.279 information ecosystem is misinformation. That's 00:13:14.279 --> 00:13:17.799 the best case scenario. But the majority of information 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:20.799 that we digest is disinformation purposely put 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:23.980 out there to confuse the public or to provide 00:13:23.980 --> 00:13:27.019 some sort of traction for some sort of other 00:13:27.019 --> 00:13:31.519 agenda. And that's a very... uh revolutionary 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:34.799 space that we're in and and and i mean that in 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:39.159 a negative halo that other people are benefiting 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:41.980 from that confusion in the space and so belief 00:13:41.980 --> 00:13:46.179 perseverance is as much as uh as common as to 00:13:46.179 --> 00:13:48.659 what channels do you listen to and what is the 00:13:48.659 --> 00:13:51.659 bias and bent so it's concerning absolutely so 00:13:51.659 --> 00:13:53.659 it's tough to get truth out there even though 00:13:53.659 --> 00:13:56.059 truth is a stubborn thing facts are stubborn 00:13:56.059 --> 00:14:00.460 things when you have this this uh bulwark against 00:14:00.460 --> 00:14:03.039 hearing truth it's difficult especially when 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:05.960 meaningful things like firefighters health oh 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:09.039 that should that should be easy to discuss yeah 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:11.960 or children in gaza but we'll leave that there 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:16.059 yeah yeah all right well then moving on because 00:14:16.059 --> 00:14:18.580 we could take a massive deep dive into the orwellian 00:14:18.580 --> 00:14:20.860 issues that are going on at the moment but i 00:14:20.860 --> 00:14:22.679 don't want to deviate from all the other stuff 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:24.720 maybe we can do a part two and we'll dive into 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:29.340 the idiocracy another time So let's start at 00:14:29.340 --> 00:14:30.779 the very beginning. You mentioned all the three 00:14:30.779 --> 00:14:33.399 nationalities. So tell me where you were born 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:35.360 and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, 00:14:35.580 --> 00:14:37.899 what your parents did, how many siblings. Yeah, 00:14:37.899 --> 00:14:41.559 sure. Happy to. So I was born in Rochester, New 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:44.480 York. So right across Lake Ontario from Toronto. 00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:51.990 And so my father. uh life of service uh but also 00:14:51.990 --> 00:14:54.509 in some unique wrinkles in there so he served 00:14:54.509 --> 00:15:01.649 in the navy and served on port of frigate he 00:15:01.649 --> 00:15:05.070 was a damage control third class so in some ways 00:15:05.070 --> 00:15:07.750 using he'd already gone into the navy and having 00:15:07.750 --> 00:15:10.389 firefighter skills he was also a firefighter 00:15:10.389 --> 00:15:13.460 when he came out But then also, he was a volunteer 00:15:13.460 --> 00:15:15.480 firefighter, so he worked full -time for Eastman 00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:19.679 Kodak. But I always saw that thread of service 00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:23.559 and spoke about it. Served in the FATILA for 00:15:23.559 --> 00:15:28.779 the USS Nautilus, first nuclear sub, and spoke 00:15:28.779 --> 00:15:32.879 about his time in the Navy very, very highly. 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:35.759 And I think there's a part of him that would 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:39.850 have liked to stay in longer. But yet I also 00:15:39.850 --> 00:15:42.850 saw being a firefighter as a bridge to continuing 00:15:42.850 --> 00:15:46.070 that journey for him. My mom was a nurse, so 00:15:46.070 --> 00:15:49.429 also spent her whole life in service. She worked 00:15:49.429 --> 00:15:51.809 in the VA system, so it was very close to those 00:15:51.809 --> 00:15:55.509 who served and spoke very highly about that, 00:15:55.529 --> 00:15:57.870 too, in many different ways. They were not afraid 00:15:57.870 --> 00:16:02.490 of sharing the stories and the values of service 00:16:02.490 --> 00:16:07.580 to others and service to others who served. And 00:16:07.580 --> 00:16:11.580 so that was a really wonderful period of time 00:16:11.580 --> 00:16:14.659 to learn through seeing and hearing and hearing 00:16:14.659 --> 00:16:16.799 the stories as we all do. We learn through stories. 00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:20.299 I have two older siblings. My oldest brother 00:16:20.299 --> 00:16:24.559 is actually developmentally delayed. So that 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:27.980 too was an amazing journey for me to see. life 00:16:27.980 --> 00:16:31.659 situation context through a different lens and 00:16:31.659 --> 00:16:34.700 see how the environment and people in the community 00:16:34.700 --> 00:16:37.620 responded to that and how my parents manage that. 00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:41.659 My middle brother, amazing. I don't know where 00:16:41.659 --> 00:16:44.240 I'd be in my life without him. Because at a very 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:48.840 young age, he had to step up to be, you know, 00:16:48.860 --> 00:16:52.580 the brother, the sibling who would take much 00:16:52.580 --> 00:16:56.740 of the support. Much of the organization, much 00:16:56.740 --> 00:16:59.659 of the position of helping my parents out run 00:16:59.659 --> 00:17:01.600 a household, because with three sons, there's 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:03.860 a special place in the afterlife for parents 00:17:03.860 --> 00:17:06.400 who have three sons. I'm convinced of that. I 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:08.380 have a staff member right now that has three 00:17:08.380 --> 00:17:10.839 young sons, and I just watch it from a distance. 00:17:10.900 --> 00:17:15.359 Oh, yeah, I remember that. During that time, 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:17.380 my dad worked for Eastman Kodak, which was a 00:17:17.380 --> 00:17:20.279 multinational company. There was a period of 00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:25.769 time where they needed some skill. in Toronto, 00:17:25.930 --> 00:17:28.269 where the headquarters of East McCordick is for 00:17:28.269 --> 00:17:31.529 Canada, or was for Canada. And so we spent some 00:17:31.529 --> 00:17:34.069 time there. What was interesting was my mom's 00:17:34.069 --> 00:17:36.369 family came from Italy and settled in Canada. 00:17:36.470 --> 00:17:39.670 So almost all my entire family on my maternal 00:17:39.670 --> 00:17:43.230 side is all Canadian, which I truly love. I have 00:17:43.230 --> 00:17:46.470 such special moments of spending time all over 00:17:46.470 --> 00:17:50.990 Canada. And the warmth, I know that's unfortunately 00:17:50.990 --> 00:17:54.400 changed. uh do the political environment but 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:59.019 um amazing people amazing country um and then 00:17:59.019 --> 00:18:02.460 uh i've had time in my life to be able to spend 00:18:02.460 --> 00:18:05.160 time in ireland as well in the dublin area uh 00:18:05.160 --> 00:18:09.200 and so where my grandparents my father's side 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:13.359 all from ireland uh directly um and in fact my 00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:17.319 family kind of dates back to And the founding 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:19.839 of the U .S., General John Sullivan, a brigadier 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:23.579 general, was the right hand of George Washington. 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:26.019 And that's directly connected to my family. So 00:18:26.019 --> 00:18:28.279 in my family, we've probably every generation 00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:31.680 has served either in the United States or Canada 00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:34.319 on both sides, the Irish and Italian family. 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:39.039 Amazing. When you reflect back now, you had a 00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:41.500 father in the military and then the fire service 00:18:41.500 --> 00:18:45.529 and mother in nursing. you know these are not 00:18:45.529 --> 00:18:48.029 only noble professions but they also sometimes 00:18:48.029 --> 00:18:51.410 come at a cost with this lens that you have now 00:18:51.410 --> 00:18:54.170 when you reflect back were there any impacts 00:18:54.170 --> 00:18:58.230 of those professions on your parents oh absolutely 00:18:58.230 --> 00:19:00.990 and that's the thing they they didn't tell these 00:19:00.990 --> 00:19:04.869 stories um um obviously they're age appropriate 00:19:04.869 --> 00:19:08.170 but they were they were unvarnished they were 00:19:08.170 --> 00:19:12.480 not going to spare truth um There are a number 00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:15.220 of amazing gifts I got from my parents, but curiosity 00:19:15.220 --> 00:19:18.359 was one of those, but also truth and wanting 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:21.859 to understand facts of things. And so absolutely, 00:19:22.099 --> 00:19:26.140 one of the things you put out there earlier about 00:19:26.140 --> 00:19:27.920 the amazing things that are happening in Florida 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:31.779 to take care of firefighters, the shift work. 00:19:32.380 --> 00:19:35.299 um that my father did as a volunteer firefighter 00:19:35.299 --> 00:19:39.579 being on call um that i certainly saw we certainly 00:19:39.579 --> 00:19:44.220 saw that um and you see it as a to somewhat of 00:19:44.220 --> 00:19:47.019 a child's eyes too he could speak to it but his 00:19:47.019 --> 00:19:49.339 whole presence changed and now knowing the science 00:19:49.339 --> 00:19:51.319 of that why does hope presence change how did 00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:55.119 he move how does his face shaped uh verbalizations 00:19:55.119 --> 00:19:59.079 tone pitch that sense of exhaustion Absolutely. 00:19:59.460 --> 00:20:03.160 And then certainly my mom, as a nurse, worked 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:05.700 through many different rotations in the hospital. 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:09.960 She had many loves of where to work and how to 00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:14.140 serve. And you could see that in her shift work 00:20:14.140 --> 00:20:17.279 as well, but they would speak to it in that to 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:19.420 care for others, you had to care for yourself. 00:20:19.579 --> 00:20:23.960 Otherwise, your ability to really be good at 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:26.599 what you do and care for others diminishes quickly. 00:20:27.179 --> 00:20:30.339 We have a name for it now in some references. 00:20:30.779 --> 00:20:34.380 That sense of showing compassion can become fatigued. 00:20:34.779 --> 00:20:36.900 But we also know other things become fatigued. 00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:38.859 How well do you move? How well do you decide? 00:20:38.980 --> 00:20:41.420 How well do you execute? But they didn't spare 00:20:41.420 --> 00:20:44.599 us on that. They would talk about it. And being 00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:48.640 a volunteer firefighter, as you imagine, is slightly 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:51.019 different where you can have a little bit more 00:20:51.019 --> 00:20:53.420 autonomy among the community to decide how you 00:20:53.420 --> 00:20:56.160 want to function. Think about families first. 00:20:57.019 --> 00:20:59.819 I remember my dad being a fire commissioner and 00:20:59.819 --> 00:21:01.759 fighting for those things, but also listening 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:05.599 to his people. How do we make this better? No, 00:21:05.660 --> 00:21:08.940 no, that was disgust. It was not this beautiful. 00:21:14.389 --> 00:21:17.269 Fantasy. Which draws us to things, right? That 00:21:17.269 --> 00:21:18.950 curiosity. It's okay. People grow up. They want 00:21:18.950 --> 00:21:20.890 to be police officers, firefighters, these noble 00:21:20.890 --> 00:21:24.549 professions. But there does be a time where you 00:21:24.549 --> 00:21:27.730 got to drill down on the truth. Absolutely. What 00:21:27.730 --> 00:21:30.230 about the VA through your mom's eyes? Because 00:21:30.230 --> 00:21:33.170 as we hear now, especially with the mental health 00:21:33.170 --> 00:21:35.369 side, you know, there's over and over and over 00:21:35.369 --> 00:21:37.269 again, U .S. veterans have been on here. And 00:21:37.269 --> 00:21:39.109 I went in there and they just. threw a bunch 00:21:39.109 --> 00:21:42.390 of meds at me and that was it um what but obviously 00:21:42.390 --> 00:21:44.410 there's other areas of the phenomenon my wife 00:21:44.410 --> 00:21:46.750 just worked in the optometry side as she came 00:21:46.750 --> 00:21:50.269 out of her doctor school um and was blown away 00:21:50.269 --> 00:21:53.569 how amazing it was there so what was she what 00:21:53.569 --> 00:21:56.130 was her kind of perception of of the decay or 00:21:56.130 --> 00:21:58.450 anything as far as that system because at its 00:21:58.450 --> 00:22:01.809 core you know it the purpose is a beautiful purpose 00:22:01.809 --> 00:22:04.690 but you know the the way it's managed and the 00:22:04.690 --> 00:22:08.289 way it's funded maybe needs some help Yeah. And 00:22:08.289 --> 00:22:10.289 I like what you said there. There is generational 00:22:10.289 --> 00:22:13.289 shifts on that because you have to learn from 00:22:13.289 --> 00:22:15.809 and constantly, especially in a hospital, you 00:22:15.809 --> 00:22:17.630 should be learning every day about how you're 00:22:17.630 --> 00:22:20.430 serving those people who are coming in for services. 00:22:20.930 --> 00:22:24.049 And I think over time, what ends up happening 00:22:24.049 --> 00:22:25.910 is they're caught into this, and it's certainly 00:22:25.910 --> 00:22:30.089 heard about it, this political crunch of something 00:22:30.089 --> 00:22:33.079 we all know and something we... Honestly, I've 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:36.099 been a part of in sport to transform a little 00:22:36.099 --> 00:22:39.000 bit. Healthcare costs, there is no doubt it is 00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:41.859 expensive to take care of human beings. We shouldn't 00:22:41.859 --> 00:22:44.079 deny that point. We should just find points of 00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:47.180 how can we be more effective and then more efficient. 00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:50.039 But that doesn't mean staffing ratios are lower. 00:22:50.220 --> 00:22:53.039 And that's often the place where people go. But 00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:55.380 when it's a human to human interaction of caring, 00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:59.400 that is the worst place to go. And you're right. 00:22:59.799 --> 00:23:03.339 Meds can't be a solution to a human. They're 00:23:03.339 --> 00:23:06.140 a tool to a human to human connection point. 00:23:06.259 --> 00:23:09.759 You need the expertise. And so what she saw in 00:23:09.759 --> 00:23:12.180 her journey was certainly this generational shifts 00:23:12.180 --> 00:23:16.579 and these political shifts. And so as policies 00:23:16.579 --> 00:23:20.920 change, so did the hospital have to change in 00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:23.779 what became best practice and keep that best 00:23:23.779 --> 00:23:27.259 practice solid. Because when you're taking revenue 00:23:27.259 --> 00:23:29.680 away or taking staffing ratios, then you have 00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:32.299 to get on your front foot. How do we meet the 00:23:32.299 --> 00:23:36.700 need? But then how do we create a narrative where 00:23:36.700 --> 00:23:39.819 policyholders can understand and leaders can 00:23:39.819 --> 00:23:44.039 understand that this strategy will not meet the 00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:47.819 mission of taking care of people? And so there 00:23:47.819 --> 00:23:49.559 was always this piece, and I think nurses are 00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:51.839 very good at this. There's more nurses than doctors 00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:56.359 in a hospital, of advocating. and really elevating 00:23:56.359 --> 00:24:01.839 that truth. I would hear about that when we would 00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:06.220 change government. They would start to mobilize 00:24:06.220 --> 00:24:09.240 before that of how they'd have to narrative differently, 00:24:09.420 --> 00:24:11.940 how they'd have to do things differently. There 00:24:11.940 --> 00:24:14.359 was this adaptation that had to happen. We got 00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:16.019 to adapt. This is going to happen. The people 00:24:16.019 --> 00:24:17.380 aren't going to stop coming through the door. 00:24:18.339 --> 00:24:21.059 Certainly, I would see some of that sadness about 00:24:21.059 --> 00:24:26.400 that too. but also the fervor to advocate. Nurses 00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:30.099 are great at that. And they also have more contact 00:24:30.099 --> 00:24:32.880 with people, so they see it happening faster. 00:24:34.539 --> 00:24:38.680 Why is there a resistance to proactive solutions? 00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:42.500 For example, one of the reasons why we've managed 00:24:42.500 --> 00:24:45.079 to get this foothold in Florida is people finally 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:48.809 went to the organizations and said, How much 00:24:48.809 --> 00:24:51.549 is the way that we're doing it now costing us 00:24:51.549 --> 00:24:54.029 in overtime, in training young firefighters who 00:24:54.029 --> 00:24:56.710 then leave two, three years later? Women's comp 00:24:56.710 --> 00:25:00.369 claims, lawsuits, medical disability retirements. 00:25:00.670 --> 00:25:02.910 And it was millions and millions and millions 00:25:02.910 --> 00:25:05.400 and millions of dollars. It blows me away that 00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:07.720 the finance people aren't the ones banging on 00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:09.740 the door saying, hey, you need to change. We 00:25:09.740 --> 00:25:12.720 need to give you a better work week. It's a false 00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:14.920 economy, but we're not hearing that. And the 00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:18.380 same as the NHS. Amazing system, but it got picked 00:25:18.380 --> 00:25:21.700 apart. The Brits got sicker and fatter, and now 00:25:21.700 --> 00:25:24.900 it's destroying the system. So what is the resistance 00:25:24.900 --> 00:25:27.880 when you understand basic economics as far as 00:25:27.880 --> 00:25:32.380 a proactive investment to... simply investing 00:25:32.380 --> 00:25:34.539 on the front end to save a lot of money on the 00:25:34.539 --> 00:25:38.480 back end. Yeah. And again, these are great points 00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:40.279 and you're giving great examples from systems 00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:42.799 that are quite amazing. The NHS is an amazing 00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:47.000 system. It is also something that many countries 00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:51.099 look to, to follow and understand. And yet you're 00:25:51.099 --> 00:25:53.799 right. It's been picked apart. I think when you 00:25:53.799 --> 00:25:57.400 look at healthcare, it is complex and it is regional 00:25:57.400 --> 00:26:00.940 or postal code or zip code. You have to understand 00:26:00.940 --> 00:26:04.119 the context. Context is king. There are component 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:06.160 parts to it. We don't need to understand all 00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:07.759 of it, but we need to understand the parts that 00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:09.859 move it. I'll speak to one that we've kind of 00:26:09.859 --> 00:26:11.740 both touched on a little bit in this conversation, 00:26:12.019 --> 00:26:14.880 which is one of the harder pieces because we 00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:17.940 do live by narrative and we do need to construct 00:26:17.940 --> 00:26:21.400 well -packaged truth with fact -based understanding 00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:24.339 to get people. to move we have to think about 00:26:24.339 --> 00:26:27.220 it like a campaign sometimes science misses that 00:26:27.220 --> 00:26:29.960 actually they think facts will move people enough 00:26:29.960 --> 00:26:34.039 and facts do move people but it is not enough 00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:38.140 it's not fully sufficient We have to think about 00:26:38.140 --> 00:26:40.940 how do we campaign with a narrative that moves 00:26:40.940 --> 00:26:44.039 people. But I think in some situations, certainly 00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:46.319 not all, I don't want to brushstroke this, but 00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:50.079 Upton Sinclair said it best. You can't convince 00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:53.059 people of the truth if they're paid not to hear 00:26:53.059 --> 00:26:56.779 it. And so we've created situations in which 00:26:56.779 --> 00:27:01.609 people are paid not to move the system. And that's 00:27:01.609 --> 00:27:04.930 a shameful reflection about we've missed the 00:27:04.930 --> 00:27:09.190 mission, that if we are human beings, ultimately, 00:27:09.309 --> 00:27:13.609 we have compassion. And most people, if you sit 00:27:13.609 --> 00:27:16.210 with them and hear their story, you will come 00:27:16.210 --> 00:27:19.069 to understand, you'll have compassion, empathy, 00:27:19.210 --> 00:27:22.049 but you also have inspiration. But you literally 00:27:22.049 --> 00:27:25.319 put people's survival. the money, because money 00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:28.279 really is about comfort and survival. If you 00:27:28.279 --> 00:27:31.519 pay them not to hear the compassion, the truth, 00:27:31.539 --> 00:27:35.079 the stories, then you have a hell of a bulwark 00:27:35.079 --> 00:27:38.480 to work around. And that creates very difficult 00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:40.880 pieces. And it makes us have to question what 00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:43.920 are we doing with our human based systems, if 00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:47.859 we're setting up situations such as that. I think 00:27:47.859 --> 00:27:51.819 the other pieces also have to do with I'll give 00:27:51.819 --> 00:27:54.960 an example for where I am locally. Being at the 00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:58.500 end of the world, we have some similar things, 00:27:58.619 --> 00:28:01.059 concerns of the middle of the country in Canada 00:28:01.059 --> 00:28:03.599 and the U .S. We're very much bi -coastal countries, 00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:06.500 both Canada and the U .S. Most people live on 00:28:06.500 --> 00:28:10.359 the coast, east and west coast. And so there's 00:28:10.359 --> 00:28:13.339 not enough providers pick the expertise in the 00:28:13.339 --> 00:28:15.480 middle of those countries. Where New Zealand 00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:19.119 is similar, their mission is to care and they 00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:23.460 want to do that. is only hampered by the number 00:28:23.460 --> 00:28:25.740 of allied health professionals they have in country 00:28:25.740 --> 00:28:30.640 and so we have to think people first and then 00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:34.299 you know strategy and structure second and third 00:28:34.299 --> 00:28:38.940 and often what we do is we pretend that we can 00:28:38.940 --> 00:28:43.380 simplify complex problems down to it's just efficiencies 00:28:43.380 --> 00:28:47.039 now efficiencies do matter we can find inefficiencies 00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:49.950 in any system um we could take a system that's 00:28:49.950 --> 00:28:52.769 very linear like our motor like we have people 00:28:52.769 --> 00:28:54.670 that are wrenching on their cars right now somewhere 00:28:54.670 --> 00:28:57.470 around the world getting more power more efficiency 00:28:57.470 --> 00:29:00.789 out of that engine we can but it does not build 00:29:00.789 --> 00:29:03.529 on resiliency so you can only get efficient to 00:29:03.529 --> 00:29:06.390 a point if you don't have people and processes 00:29:06.390 --> 00:29:10.150 that can meet the need eventually the system 00:29:10.150 --> 00:29:13.490 collapses and so we forget people and people's 00:29:13.490 --> 00:29:16.690 resiliency and expertise is a key factor in this 00:29:17.390 --> 00:29:19.390 And then having people who are willing to solve 00:29:19.390 --> 00:29:23.190 problems is a factor in this. Absolutely. Well, 00:29:23.250 --> 00:29:25.390 thank you for that perspective. Let's go back 00:29:25.390 --> 00:29:28.769 to your early life. You ended up working with 00:29:28.769 --> 00:29:30.869 a lot of athletes from all different sports. 00:29:31.289 --> 00:29:33.369 What were you playing and doing when you were 00:29:33.369 --> 00:29:36.269 in the school ages? You're going to make me go 00:29:36.269 --> 00:29:40.170 back that far. James, that's a dot on the horizon 00:29:40.170 --> 00:29:44.529 for me these days. So I was lucky. I grew up 00:29:44.529 --> 00:29:47.440 obviously having... two brothers ahead of me 00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:50.759 who are actually very very sporty very very active 00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:53.720 and we know from the research like if you have 00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:57.799 older siblings that actually relatively speaking 00:29:57.799 --> 00:30:00.440 it's not 100 rule let's be honest this is more 00:30:00.440 --> 00:30:03.819 corollary than cause and effect but you tend 00:30:03.819 --> 00:30:06.839 to be attracted a lot of different sports and 00:30:06.839 --> 00:30:09.779 then you tend to be a little bit better of an 00:30:09.779 --> 00:30:11.880 athlete so that's a gift they gave me and they 00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:15.680 both were very good athletes um and i grew up 00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:18.880 playing my first love was football with an irish 00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:22.359 and italian grandparents there was a ball at 00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:26.039 our feet when we were quite young uh and i just 00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:28.720 fell in love with that sport um but i did do 00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:32.279 traditional american sports as well um so played 00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:37.579 played softball played baseball um uh any you 00:30:37.579 --> 00:30:39.619 know played football not organized but if there 00:30:39.619 --> 00:30:41.720 was a the you know touch football game or tackle 00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:44.000 football game which i wouldn't encourage now 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:48.180 but i think we were playing it um and then uh 00:30:48.180 --> 00:30:53.960 over time gravitated to uh athletics distance 00:30:53.960 --> 00:30:57.980 running um and cycling And so those are the sports 00:30:57.980 --> 00:31:02.880 that I competed in at an NCAA Division I level 00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:05.619 and then later on competed at an international 00:31:05.619 --> 00:31:09.599 level. But still, I would say football is my 00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:12.460 first love. Love that sport. It was a great foundation 00:31:12.460 --> 00:31:15.799 for the things I found myself in at my next chapters 00:31:15.799 --> 00:31:20.339 in my life. Did you play as an adult? I did. 00:31:20.380 --> 00:31:22.720 I did. I don't play as much anymore. I'd like 00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:25.240 to get back into it. It was moving country, but 00:31:25.240 --> 00:31:27.960 I used to play. I lived part time in Newport, 00:31:27.980 --> 00:31:30.400 Rhode Island. So there was a Saturday game. And 00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:32.680 then if I was in Washington, D .C., where I lived 00:31:32.680 --> 00:31:36.119 part time, eventually there full time, I would 00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:40.079 go play out at the Washington Monument. There's 00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:43.420 at least 30 games going on, you know, on any 00:31:43.420 --> 00:31:46.579 given Sunday. So that was great fun. Great fun. 00:31:47.660 --> 00:31:49.099 This is always interesting. And you've again 00:31:49.099 --> 00:31:51.700 worked with so many elite athletes and coaches 00:31:51.700 --> 00:31:57.819 now. When I moved to the US, it wasn't long after 00:31:57.819 --> 00:32:00.640 that that I started realizing that I kept hearing. 00:32:01.210 --> 00:32:05.349 what I call uncle Rico stories. So deconditioned 00:32:05.349 --> 00:32:08.490 30 year olds telling me how they could have, 00:32:08.509 --> 00:32:10.309 would have, should have been the next, you know, 00:32:10.309 --> 00:32:12.990 Gretzky or whoever it was. And this is not me 00:32:12.990 --> 00:32:15.329 being condescending at all. I was, I was like, 00:32:15.390 --> 00:32:18.910 what is going on here? Because in the time that 00:32:18.910 --> 00:32:22.109 I grew up in England, there wasn't a high level 00:32:22.109 --> 00:32:25.190 of athleticism at the, you know, school already 00:32:25.190 --> 00:32:28.579 college level. There wasn't, but. What happened 00:32:28.579 --> 00:32:30.779 was people kept playing. You had pub leagues, 00:32:30.859 --> 00:32:32.980 you had local leagues, and adults continued to 00:32:32.980 --> 00:32:36.019 play sports. What I saw more and more here is 00:32:36.019 --> 00:32:39.339 you had a high level of athleticism in school 00:32:39.339 --> 00:32:42.740 and college, and then a physical or mental burnout 00:32:42.740 --> 00:32:46.299 that left a complete void when it came to activity. 00:32:47.099 --> 00:32:49.140 with people that had transitioned out of education, 00:32:49.480 --> 00:32:52.420 which was a cultural thing. So I realized that 00:32:52.420 --> 00:32:56.160 there was maybe an abused line between performance, 00:32:56.220 --> 00:32:58.519 winning your college or school, a championship, 00:32:58.660 --> 00:33:01.740 and the well -being and longevity of the young 00:33:01.740 --> 00:33:05.819 athlete. James, what a great observation. And 00:33:05.819 --> 00:33:08.940 it's one of those things that when you come in 00:33:08.940 --> 00:33:11.859 as an outsider, you zoom in and zoom out, you 00:33:11.859 --> 00:33:15.240 can see things that parts of the culture may 00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:18.000 not acknowledge, but are spot on. So just to 00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:21.839 speak about the research that really your observation 00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:24.619 and anecdote does fit with our research when 00:33:24.619 --> 00:33:30.240 we look at North American sport. So, yes. On 00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:32.759 an Olympic level, if we use that as some sort 00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:36.339 of benchmark, we do win a lot of medals. But 00:33:36.339 --> 00:33:38.940 we do that out of sheer population and diversity. 00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:42.019 And yes, the maturity of our systems. But if 00:33:42.019 --> 00:33:44.680 we really want to scratch the surface, your observation 00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:47.799 and the research would say we break more athletes 00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:52.259 than we actually develop. And it is in this system 00:33:52.259 --> 00:33:55.359 of more is better. And the problem with that 00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:57.319 is the other observation you made, which is very 00:33:57.319 --> 00:34:00.900 keen. So when you break someone who really know 00:34:00.900 --> 00:34:02.680 very few are going to make it to the pinnacle, 00:34:02.740 --> 00:34:05.200 very few are going to get to that elite status. 00:34:06.819 --> 00:34:10.219 It's just there isn't enough space, regardless 00:34:10.219 --> 00:34:13.539 if you have tons of talent. And when you break 00:34:13.539 --> 00:34:15.659 an athlete, where do they end up? They ended 00:34:15.659 --> 00:34:19.380 up in our obesity research. So is there a health? 00:34:19.929 --> 00:34:22.650 burden on that when we don't take care of athletes 00:34:22.650 --> 00:34:26.469 and we don't treat them or teach them that this 00:34:26.469 --> 00:34:30.590 is something for a lifetime of opportunity for 00:34:30.590 --> 00:34:35.050 health and when we're not being honest about 00:34:35.050 --> 00:34:38.210 how do you train someone with proper doses and 00:34:38.210 --> 00:34:40.690 that not everyone is going to make it but you 00:34:40.690 --> 00:34:43.690 are learning transitional and transferable skills 00:34:43.690 --> 00:34:48.469 and so keen observation And what's sad on the 00:34:48.469 --> 00:34:50.730 other side of that is we break so many that they 00:34:50.730 --> 00:34:55.269 end up in a burden to themselves and not in a 00:34:55.269 --> 00:34:58.690 great resilient place. Now, I'm sure this is 00:34:58.690 --> 00:35:00.269 going to mirror many things that you've seen 00:35:00.269 --> 00:35:02.429 at the high level, the professional level, but 00:35:02.429 --> 00:35:05.300 another area that I think is very worrying. And 00:35:05.300 --> 00:35:08.119 I just watched that film, Varsity Blues, the 00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:09.840 other day. I thought it was a teen film. My wife 00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:11.699 watched it and I was blubbering and was amazed 00:35:11.699 --> 00:35:14.659 that a 1999 film was hitting all the things that 00:35:14.659 --> 00:35:17.820 we're talking about today, like CTE and all the 00:35:17.820 --> 00:35:20.820 other areas. But there was also that loss of 00:35:20.820 --> 00:35:23.400 identity. Now, we understand it in the military. 00:35:23.500 --> 00:35:25.300 We understand it. I think we're starting to now 00:35:25.300 --> 00:35:27.340 in the first responder profession. But you've 00:35:27.340 --> 00:35:29.460 got a kid that ever since they were peewee were 00:35:29.460 --> 00:35:32.070 playing football. And all up until that point, 00:35:32.090 --> 00:35:34.389 if they just aren't good enough anymore or they 00:35:34.389 --> 00:35:37.929 have that career -ending injury, from the mental 00:35:37.929 --> 00:35:40.269 health side, I can see how detrimental that would 00:35:40.269 --> 00:35:44.849 be to a child. You're 100 % right. That research, 00:35:44.849 --> 00:35:47.369 really, we're looking at kind of anyone who funnels 00:35:47.369 --> 00:35:50.909 their identity into kind of one, let's say, pinpoint 00:35:50.909 --> 00:35:55.329 thing or just anchors there so strongly. that 00:35:55.329 --> 00:35:58.190 obviously the ebbs and flows of winning, losing, 00:35:58.929 --> 00:36:03.429 knocking, playing time, not feeling like you're 00:36:03.429 --> 00:36:05.949 developing fast enough, those create vulnerabilities 00:36:05.949 --> 00:36:09.090 if that's all you see yourself as an athlete. 00:36:09.329 --> 00:36:12.389 We call it identity foreclosure, right? Someone's 00:36:12.389 --> 00:36:14.869 foreclosing, not looking at other opportunities, 00:36:15.090 --> 00:36:18.130 not exploring other spaces. So we've known for 00:36:18.130 --> 00:36:20.530 quite a while if you want to make a healthy athlete 00:36:20.530 --> 00:36:23.469 is actually to look at their life holistically. 00:36:24.489 --> 00:36:27.250 about sport it's sport and life it's other opportunities 00:36:27.250 --> 00:36:30.110 but across many times where athletes who invested 00:36:30.110 --> 00:36:33.110 in other areas whether it be going for a degree 00:36:33.110 --> 00:36:36.110 working part -time as they train at the elite 00:36:36.110 --> 00:36:41.889 level investing more time as a parent or investing 00:36:41.889 --> 00:36:47.170 more time with friends and family that that buoys 00:36:47.170 --> 00:36:50.789 them it creates more resiliency and you have 00:36:50.789 --> 00:36:54.619 more stress buffering And we've known this so 00:36:54.619 --> 00:36:57.960 much that when I was a very young, I was in my 00:36:57.960 --> 00:37:00.739 first master's program, one of my professors 00:37:00.739 --> 00:37:05.739 was doing really seminal work with USOC on this 00:37:05.739 --> 00:37:08.579 very issue. Like, listen, if we don't get to 00:37:08.579 --> 00:37:12.639 them early to expand their horizons and show 00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:15.239 them also that they're not just playing a sport, 00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:17.260 they're learning skills that they can transfer, 00:37:17.480 --> 00:37:19.960 we're creating vulnerabilities. And this was 00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:24.130 in the early 90s. And it's taken us to this time 00:37:24.130 --> 00:37:27.550 for elite sport. And I would say probably middle, 00:37:27.670 --> 00:37:31.530 early 2000s to go, we need to invest in this 00:37:31.530 --> 00:37:33.409 space. And that's some of the work I did when 00:37:33.409 --> 00:37:35.570 I started with the New England Patriots was, 00:37:35.750 --> 00:37:38.989 listen, if we don't prepare them for life, because 00:37:38.989 --> 00:37:43.090 the average is a two year, they're only in the 00:37:43.090 --> 00:37:45.489 league two years. That's the average. So you 00:37:45.489 --> 00:37:47.769 have a window of opportunity that closes quickly. 00:37:48.110 --> 00:37:50.690 So if we don't prepare them equally to play. 00:37:51.190 --> 00:37:55.010 and to have a quality of life then what we're 00:37:55.010 --> 00:37:58.150 doing in some ways is not taking care of them 00:37:58.150 --> 00:38:00.710 quite simply and especially if we know the data 00:38:00.710 --> 00:38:03.769 the tragedy would be ignore the data and the 00:38:03.769 --> 00:38:05.849 data would say two years so we put a program 00:38:05.849 --> 00:38:08.030 together that allowed them to learn how to be 00:38:08.030 --> 00:38:10.130 a professional football player but also prepared 00:38:10.130 --> 00:38:13.230 them and we had very high percentage rates of 00:38:13.230 --> 00:38:16.789 graduation or starting master's degrees and internships 00:38:16.789 --> 00:38:20.630 in the off season to again expand horizons we 00:38:20.630 --> 00:38:22.969 had family days so the family knew what they 00:38:22.969 --> 00:38:24.849 were going through because it is somewhat for 00:38:24.849 --> 00:38:29.309 16 weeks now 18 like being in the military and 00:38:29.309 --> 00:38:31.650 so we'd include family and we didn't support 00:38:31.650 --> 00:38:36.010 family that seems like this thing that is becoming 00:38:36.010 --> 00:38:39.969 a wedge between the family members and so i think 00:38:39.969 --> 00:38:42.829 there is a seed change but to your point of the 00:38:42.829 --> 00:38:45.590 movie you're watching do we see that seed change 00:38:45.590 --> 00:38:49.250 in the lower high school which is very professionalized 00:38:49.250 --> 00:38:53.510 in north america it depends upon zip code which 00:38:53.510 --> 00:38:55.789 is very unfortunate just like healthcare depends 00:38:55.789 --> 00:38:59.909 upon the zip code and so there are programs that 00:38:59.909 --> 00:39:02.050 attend to that and there are some really evidence 00:39:02.050 --> 00:39:04.909 -based programs to give you know those interventions 00:39:04.909 --> 00:39:08.030 to high school athletes But we need to do a better 00:39:08.030 --> 00:39:10.269 job for breaking more athletes than developing 00:39:10.269 --> 00:39:13.210 right there. The tragedy is not listening to 00:39:13.210 --> 00:39:16.389 that data. It's funny because it mirrors the 00:39:16.389 --> 00:39:19.289 conversation again with military, especially 00:39:19.289 --> 00:39:22.130 first responders and military. I think for all 00:39:22.130 --> 00:39:26.190 of us, it's understanding that the branch that 00:39:26.190 --> 00:39:28.829 you are in, the special operations group, the 00:39:28.829 --> 00:39:33.050 fire department is actually not who you are. 00:39:33.579 --> 00:39:36.599 You are a good human being that wanted to make 00:39:36.599 --> 00:39:38.519 the world a little bit better. The mission hasn't 00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:40.280 changed when you took the uniform off, but it's 00:39:40.280 --> 00:39:43.400 very hard because we cling onto it. But when 00:39:43.400 --> 00:39:46.380 you now shift to this healthier work week and 00:39:46.380 --> 00:39:48.719 one of the pushbacks is like, well, the overtime 00:39:48.719 --> 00:39:51.980 is going to go away or even worse, I'll nauseatingly 00:39:51.980 --> 00:39:54.820 get chiefs and other people say, well, if we 00:39:54.820 --> 00:39:56.179 give them more time off, they're just going to 00:39:56.179 --> 00:39:59.960 work more, which you don't govern someone's days 00:39:59.960 --> 00:40:02.659 off. That's a nauseating thing to say, but also. 00:40:03.360 --> 00:40:05.539 Well, that's the point. If you fully staff a 00:40:05.539 --> 00:40:07.559 fire department, the overtime goes away. So that 00:40:07.559 --> 00:40:10.980 ability disappears anyway. But now you've freed 00:40:10.980 --> 00:40:13.639 up more time because there's nothing wrong with 00:40:13.639 --> 00:40:16.199 someone being a personal trainer or a carpenter 00:40:16.199 --> 00:40:19.340 or, you know, a landscaper on their days off 00:40:19.340 --> 00:40:20.900 because they're still going to have dinner with 00:40:20.900 --> 00:40:22.380 their family. They're still going to go to bed. 00:40:22.860 --> 00:40:26.179 So that I think the other side of this is, well, 00:40:26.239 --> 00:40:28.599 now you are an entrepreneur on your days off. 00:40:28.599 --> 00:40:31.400 You're not a firefighter. So God forbid you get 00:40:31.400 --> 00:40:33.800 hurt, you get fired, you know, you just simply 00:40:33.800 --> 00:40:36.389 retire. you've already got that other tribe, 00:40:36.469 --> 00:40:39.309 that other identity versus everything being all 00:40:39.309 --> 00:40:42.409 in on that one profession. 100%. When you're 00:40:42.409 --> 00:40:44.869 trying to balance everything on a pinpoint, we 00:40:44.869 --> 00:40:46.989 can kind of understand what's going to happen. 00:40:47.130 --> 00:40:50.429 And when you give people time, there needs to 00:40:50.429 --> 00:40:52.769 be some guidance, like you're saying, maybe giving 00:40:52.769 --> 00:40:56.650 some education about that, but not guidance in 00:40:56.650 --> 00:41:00.820 the way that you can't. um because human variation 00:41:00.820 --> 00:41:03.360 should teach us that you know that's the rule 00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:05.880 not the exception so there are many paths to 00:41:05.880 --> 00:41:09.340 balance and health and coming back to the fire 00:41:09.340 --> 00:41:11.960 department using that example because you were 00:41:11.960 --> 00:41:13.820 doing these other things because you're investing 00:41:13.820 --> 00:41:16.300 elsewhere you're more present more available 00:41:16.300 --> 00:41:20.559 and more capable and we have to yeah give some 00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:23.699 education and what you're talking about too is 00:41:23.699 --> 00:41:26.960 every Every individual in their career goes through 00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:30.860 transitions. In psychology, we refer to your 00:41:30.860 --> 00:41:33.159 first 10 years, you're an early career professional. 00:41:33.380 --> 00:41:35.780 You have a doctorate, you're coming, you're licensed, 00:41:35.900 --> 00:41:38.360 you're registered, and then a mid -career professional. 00:41:38.559 --> 00:41:40.420 We talk about those transitions in there and 00:41:40.420 --> 00:41:42.920 possibilities or potentials to how to reinvest 00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:45.739 in yourself. Some of that's not anchoring in 00:41:45.739 --> 00:41:47.599 psychology. It's a very thing you're saying, 00:41:47.780 --> 00:41:50.869 investing outside of that. And then late career 00:41:50.869 --> 00:41:53.130 professionals, keeping in mind that you're staying 00:41:53.130 --> 00:41:57.150 sharp with your information, your technical knowledge, 00:41:57.349 --> 00:42:00.869 but also that you may need more rest to do what 00:42:00.869 --> 00:42:04.889 you did prior. And if we think about our professions 00:42:04.889 --> 00:42:07.989 as transitions, just like with athletes, like 00:42:07.989 --> 00:42:12.530 that same, you know, Tom Brady, when he was later 00:42:12.530 --> 00:42:14.449 in his career, it's not the same Tom Brady that 00:42:14.449 --> 00:42:17.829 walked into the league. He can't be. And you 00:42:17.829 --> 00:42:22.010 have to change your process to attend to those 00:42:22.010 --> 00:42:25.389 needs. And I think if we think about things as 00:42:25.389 --> 00:42:30.130 much more as nonlinear than linear, that things 00:42:30.130 --> 00:42:33.289 go up and down and there's a value base to that. 00:42:33.349 --> 00:42:35.110 We can understand how to intervene with more 00:42:35.110 --> 00:42:38.750 precision. While we're on the subject of youth 00:42:38.750 --> 00:42:40.510 athletes, because I mean, this is, again, a very 00:42:40.510 --> 00:42:42.570 adult problem as well, but I think it starts 00:42:42.570 --> 00:42:46.760 in our schools. Talk to me about CTE. You made 00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:49.400 the comment about, you know, not wanting, you 00:42:49.400 --> 00:42:51.880 know, the, your kids to play football now, but 00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:53.780 you know, obviously there is some middle ground. 00:42:53.860 --> 00:42:56.019 I'm a martial artist. So I got knocked around 00:42:56.019 --> 00:42:58.579 for most of my teen and then young adult years. 00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:02.699 What is the evolution of the understanding between 00:43:02.699 --> 00:43:05.360 the old, just shake it off again, varsity blues 00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:07.880 did a great job highlighting that to where we 00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:10.019 are today, where even, you know, mixed martial 00:43:10.019 --> 00:43:12.239 artists are sparring a lot less than they used 00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:15.039 to. Yeah, I love that. And thank you for bringing 00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:17.260 that sport into it, because certainly it's near 00:43:17.260 --> 00:43:18.980 and dear to me. It was one of the sports that 00:43:18.980 --> 00:43:22.420 certainly I was involved in with the kaleidoscope 00:43:22.420 --> 00:43:25.159 of things that I enjoyed doing in sport, but 00:43:25.159 --> 00:43:29.070 also that. You talk about brain health, and we're 00:43:29.070 --> 00:43:31.369 all at a disadvantage, quite frankly. If I didn't 00:43:31.369 --> 00:43:33.769 study psychology and neuropsychology and neuroscience, 00:43:34.190 --> 00:43:36.429 I don't think I'd know very much. Just going 00:43:36.429 --> 00:43:39.150 back to where you were anchoring, what do we 00:43:39.150 --> 00:43:41.550 learn in our schools and our formal learning 00:43:41.550 --> 00:43:44.130 about brain health? Typically, we learn much 00:43:44.130 --> 00:43:46.230 more about other factors of health, but there 00:43:46.230 --> 00:43:48.650 is none more important than brain health. The 00:43:48.650 --> 00:43:51.070 brain is the driver of health. If we understand 00:43:51.070 --> 00:43:57.570 that, we can facilitate much more. brain health 00:43:57.570 --> 00:44:00.469 issues, concussion is one of those pieces. And 00:44:00.469 --> 00:44:02.730 by no means, and I think you're giving me a job 00:44:02.730 --> 00:44:04.269 to speak to it. I'm not saying we shouldn't do 00:44:04.269 --> 00:44:10.050 sport. There are calculated risks. I'm not a 00:44:10.050 --> 00:44:12.550 big believer in like, we should just stop doing 00:44:12.550 --> 00:44:15.570 these sort of things. I think as we learn to 00:44:15.570 --> 00:44:17.590 your question, more knowledge, we understand 00:44:17.590 --> 00:44:20.610 how to do it with more precision and more refinement 00:44:20.610 --> 00:44:23.869 to protect the person. For instance, if we look 00:44:23.869 --> 00:44:26.530 at some collision sports, there are drills in 00:44:26.530 --> 00:44:31.210 football, AFL football, rugby, ice hockey, those 00:44:31.210 --> 00:44:34.809 collision sports that we don't do anymore because 00:44:34.809 --> 00:44:38.409 we know they don't prepare the athlete, but also 00:44:38.409 --> 00:44:40.750 it puts them in a vulnerability to actually have 00:44:40.750 --> 00:44:43.650 brain health. So we're learning. One of the things 00:44:43.650 --> 00:44:47.449 I would say is, and I don't typically say this, 00:44:47.570 --> 00:44:51.539 but I will with you to be quite honest. We don't 00:44:51.539 --> 00:44:54.880 know what CT is. Let's be honest. If you say 00:44:54.880 --> 00:44:57.380 that in certain environments, they'll think you're 00:44:57.380 --> 00:45:00.719 a heretic. What I mean by that is we know something's 00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:03.199 going on. There's a syndrome there, but it's 00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:07.760 likely 10 to 12 different types of things that 00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:10.739 are causing brain health issues. And so we're 00:45:10.739 --> 00:45:13.219 at the verge of unpackaging that. Something's 00:45:13.219 --> 00:45:15.820 going on. It's real. I'm going to be clear. People 00:45:15.820 --> 00:45:19.380 should hear me say that. It's real. At the same 00:45:19.380 --> 00:45:21.639 time, what we need to get is more precise about 00:45:21.639 --> 00:45:24.320 what it is on each individual level so we can 00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:28.039 target treatment more precisely to get them back 00:45:28.039 --> 00:45:31.940 to health. The state of play is this. We can't 00:45:31.940 --> 00:45:35.840 pretend anymore. When in doubt, people need to 00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:39.619 sit out. And that's the piece. Majority of people 00:45:39.619 --> 00:45:42.900 recover from concussion with treatment. And there 00:45:42.900 --> 00:45:45.019 is some that don't get treatment who do recover. 00:45:45.219 --> 00:45:50.320 But if we do the right things to draw down on 00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:56.099 the demand of energy from the brain and allow 00:45:56.099 --> 00:45:58.659 people to have rest cycles for healing, that's 00:45:58.659 --> 00:46:03.380 how tissue grows. so a training day is stimulation 00:46:03.380 --> 00:46:06.920 for growth at every cellular level brain to the 00:46:06.920 --> 00:46:09.860 other 11 systems out and if you give someone 00:46:09.860 --> 00:46:12.820 rest they will readapt and grow those tissues 00:46:12.820 --> 00:46:16.519 back and have some resiliency so that's why treatment 00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:19.099 is so important but treatment's important for 00:46:19.099 --> 00:46:21.800 another reason having worked for concussion for 00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:24.559 a great majority of my career i have had many 00:46:24.559 --> 00:46:28.219 athletes and also we have to understand the work 00:46:28.219 --> 00:46:32.679 you've done and household injuries and you know 00:46:32.679 --> 00:46:35.119 and motor accidents or car accidents are the 00:46:35.119 --> 00:46:38.119 most common it's really not in sport although 00:46:38.119 --> 00:46:40.219 we focus because it's a microcosm of culture 00:46:40.219 --> 00:46:42.320 and everyone loves sport it happens outside of 00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:44.960 sport much more and having sitting with patients 00:46:44.960 --> 00:46:47.880 they learn how their brain works and they learn 00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:50.619 how to recover on a more sufficient level when 00:46:50.619 --> 00:46:52.239 they leave that when they go through therapy 00:46:52.239 --> 00:46:55.539 you know in treatment or rehabilitation and so 00:46:56.280 --> 00:46:58.059 what it is as a learning journey how does my 00:46:58.059 --> 00:47:00.400 brain work how do i make it more resilient from 00:47:00.400 --> 00:47:03.079 these days going forward but really the state 00:47:03.079 --> 00:47:05.099 of play is we're getting much sharper at being 00:47:05.099 --> 00:47:09.599 able to protect it assess it and rehabilitate 00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:15.219 it um when i first started in collision sports 00:47:15.219 --> 00:47:21.300 uh it was really the dark ages i mean let's take 00:47:21.300 --> 00:47:23.699 motorsports for instance i mean when you think 00:47:23.699 --> 00:47:28.480 about the really G -forces and the number of 00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:31.840 microtraumas an F1 driver, Indy driver, NASCAR 00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:35.539 driver is experiencing or rally car. It's quite 00:47:35.539 --> 00:47:39.940 significant. But in the past, and I'm not holding 00:47:39.940 --> 00:47:41.880 people to it as we know more now, but just to 00:47:41.880 --> 00:47:44.159 give that example from your question, is they 00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:45.659 would assess the driver and just put him back 00:47:45.659 --> 00:47:49.760 in the car. Like what? I mean, we encourage people 00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:52.579 who have concussions to have someone drive them 00:47:52.579 --> 00:47:58.280 to the clinic now. So I think when you look at 00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:00.920 the span, there's more we can do, but we've gotten 00:48:00.920 --> 00:48:03.699 a lot more precise of starting to understand. 00:48:03.800 --> 00:48:07.800 It's actually understanding the individual because 00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:10.619 everything is in an individual care situation. 00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:13.780 Understanding that gives us more understanding 00:48:13.780 --> 00:48:17.980 of how we can rehabilitate them faster. I was 00:48:17.980 --> 00:48:21.280 with Shootbox years ago in LA. They opened a 00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:24.980 gym for a short time. you know they say you should 00:48:24.980 --> 00:48:27.380 never talk about but that's basically what it 00:48:27.380 --> 00:48:30.460 was and i learned one thing that i'm not a giant 00:48:30.460 --> 00:48:32.639 pussy that was it because it was nothing but 00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:34.699 just getting the shit beaten out of me by people 00:48:34.699 --> 00:48:37.780 that were much better fighters but um you know 00:48:37.780 --> 00:48:40.960 the the licks that i took for a short time you 00:48:40.960 --> 00:48:43.780 know and now you you like a full you know uh 00:48:43.780 --> 00:48:46.269 shoot box fighter that's you know got years and 00:48:46.269 --> 00:48:48.570 years in a career you see just how detrimental 00:48:48.570 --> 00:48:51.409 that could be and there was that one video of 00:48:51.409 --> 00:48:53.730 nam fan that went around you know showing pre 00:48:53.730 --> 00:48:55.650 and post and just it was you know devastating 00:48:55.650 --> 00:48:59.090 to see it so sticking with with that sport you 00:48:59.090 --> 00:49:02.909 know with the combat striking sports what advice 00:49:02.909 --> 00:49:05.269 would you give to people listening as far as 00:49:05.269 --> 00:49:07.730 you know where those gyms should be now obviously 00:49:07.730 --> 00:49:09.269 when you're actually in the ring if you're a 00:49:09.269 --> 00:49:10.789 competitive fighter you need to you're going 00:49:10.789 --> 00:49:13.289 to have to do some sparring where you're ramping 00:49:13.289 --> 00:49:16.090 up a little bit but What is that secret sauce 00:49:16.090 --> 00:49:19.289 as far as taking away hard sparring or other 00:49:19.289 --> 00:49:21.610 areas so we can kind of reduce the amount of 00:49:21.610 --> 00:49:23.449 head trauma they get prior to a competition? 00:49:24.530 --> 00:49:28.550 It's a fantastic question. And you kind of hinted 00:49:28.550 --> 00:49:30.630 to it. And I can speak to some of this about 00:49:30.630 --> 00:49:33.610 how this does help with preparation. So you spoke 00:49:33.610 --> 00:49:38.690 about a lot of MMA athletes now not doing as 00:49:38.690 --> 00:49:41.889 much hard sparring. They're doing much more what 00:49:41.889 --> 00:49:45.190 we would call. you know, cognitive training and 00:49:45.190 --> 00:49:48.250 looking for patterns and doing much more tag. 00:49:48.650 --> 00:49:51.849 There's a colleague of mine who started the Australian 00:49:51.849 --> 00:49:55.309 Institute of Sport, Alan Hong, who actually developed 00:49:55.309 --> 00:49:58.829 gloves that much more have to do with tag. So 00:49:58.829 --> 00:50:01.190 you're looking for openings. It's much more cognitive, 00:50:01.250 --> 00:50:04.070 emotional training. You're predicting movement 00:50:04.070 --> 00:50:07.210 and the brain doesn't react. It predicts. And 00:50:07.210 --> 00:50:10.929 so that has more benefit because that's what 00:50:10.929 --> 00:50:13.820 you're really doing. The hits are going to come, 00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:17.320 but more of trying to find the openings and understand 00:50:17.320 --> 00:50:20.840 the pattern faster. So what that allows for is 00:50:20.840 --> 00:50:23.840 what we're talking about here is, yes, you're 00:50:23.840 --> 00:50:27.059 doing training, but you're amply doing much more 00:50:27.059 --> 00:50:29.460 rest cycles. So you consolidate your learning 00:50:29.460 --> 00:50:31.559 on a physical, cognitive, and emotional level. 00:50:32.320 --> 00:50:34.159 And so what I would say is, yes, you have to 00:50:34.159 --> 00:50:36.480 do hard sparring, but you should be anchoring 00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:40.400 a little bit more on understanding how to read 00:50:40.400 --> 00:50:45.239 and react and time your movements. The hits will 00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:48.719 be there, but if you can be there faster and 00:50:48.719 --> 00:50:53.199 you can find the openings quicker, you are going 00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:56.719 to be the one that... Over time, especially in 00:50:56.719 --> 00:50:58.619 the rounds because right your cardiovascular 00:50:58.619 --> 00:51:01.219 fitness helps your brain being able to read and 00:51:01.219 --> 00:51:04.380 react as well They're all connected in a complex 00:51:04.380 --> 00:51:07.980 system. You're gonna end up being in an advantage 00:51:07.980 --> 00:51:11.699 point. And so I like what I'm seeing now. They're 00:51:11.699 --> 00:51:14.840 seeing much more opportunity and much more health. 00:51:15.699 --> 00:51:19.059 Sport and the fight game and combat sports is 00:51:19.059 --> 00:51:21.380 filled with a lot of tradition. But I've come 00:51:21.380 --> 00:51:24.400 from environments where once tradition no longer 00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:27.320 meets science, it's no longer tradition. Because 00:51:27.320 --> 00:51:31.230 now what we're being is foolish. And so I love 00:51:31.230 --> 00:51:33.110 what you're anchoring on. And I like what a lot 00:51:33.110 --> 00:51:35.170 of those athletes are doing. They're using science 00:51:35.170 --> 00:51:38.530 to inform their practice and iterating it to 00:51:38.530 --> 00:51:41.369 their individual needs. That's a smart move. 00:51:42.269 --> 00:51:44.250 It's funny what you just said about tradition, 00:51:44.369 --> 00:51:46.630 because this is the one thing, the American fire 00:51:46.630 --> 00:51:49.489 helmet. People hate it when I talk about this, 00:51:49.570 --> 00:51:50.750 but it's just the truth. I don't know if you 00:51:50.750 --> 00:51:52.050 can see it on my shoulder. There's literally 00:51:52.050 --> 00:51:57.639 a fire helmet from 1937. And they talk about, 00:51:57.820 --> 00:51:59.440 well, it's tradition. And I'm like, no, it's 00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:03.599 a hat. Tradition is teamwork, courage, selflessness, 00:52:03.719 --> 00:52:07.260 service, working under pressure. That's the tradition 00:52:07.260 --> 00:52:10.039 of the fire service. The other stuff is just 00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:12.320 clothes and protective equipment. And if you're 00:52:12.320 --> 00:52:14.559 refusing to advance because you care about how 00:52:14.559 --> 00:52:16.840 you look, then you're doing it for the wrong 00:52:16.840 --> 00:52:19.079 reasons. The Navy SEALs don't wear tin helmets 00:52:19.079 --> 00:52:23.980 for a reason. And I would say it's a wonderful 00:52:23.980 --> 00:52:28.849 point. I would say in another example is, okay, 00:52:28.909 --> 00:52:31.730 do we see American football players wearing the 00:52:31.730 --> 00:52:36.449 leather helmets of days gone by when they wore 00:52:36.449 --> 00:52:42.340 them? There were eight deaths in the NCAA system, 00:52:42.460 --> 00:52:44.460 and that's when Teddy Roosevelt called a meeting 00:52:44.460 --> 00:52:46.920 at the White House because they looked to cancel 00:52:46.920 --> 00:52:49.400 American football because of those numerous deaths 00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:53.000 of young men at many of the major universities 00:52:53.000 --> 00:52:55.780 that played at that time. Now, they thought they 00:52:55.780 --> 00:52:57.780 solved it, but regardless, they were like, listen, 00:52:57.900 --> 00:52:59.679 we've got to look at this. And what you see now 00:52:59.679 --> 00:53:02.699 is an iteration of that helmet with science of 00:53:02.699 --> 00:53:06.099 really trying to mitigate using laws of physics, 00:53:06.139 --> 00:53:09.380 forces moving away from the head. opposed to 00:53:09.380 --> 00:53:12.099 pinpoint focused now granted it's a tough thing 00:53:12.099 --> 00:53:13.920 when the brain is a millimeter of space from 00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:17.539 the inside of your skull is to you know it is 00:53:17.539 --> 00:53:20.559 going to hit but with what forces and so you're 00:53:20.559 --> 00:53:23.760 right we have to iterate um and it's interesting 00:53:23.760 --> 00:53:27.019 you you mentioned the navy seals i mean that 00:53:27.019 --> 00:53:31.219 quote i gave is pretty much uh what is utilized 00:53:31.219 --> 00:53:34.639 at the command Like we have to evolve. Our opponents 00:53:34.639 --> 00:53:36.860 are evolving. The world is evolving. If you think 00:53:36.860 --> 00:53:39.719 you can stand still, like you are already falling 00:53:39.719 --> 00:53:44.099 behind. And so I appreciate that. Your equipment's 00:53:44.099 --> 00:53:47.639 got to meet the need. Got to meet the need. Absolutely. 00:53:47.760 --> 00:53:50.440 Well, one more area about head trauma before 00:53:50.440 --> 00:53:53.360 we progress into the psychological side of things. 00:53:55.050 --> 00:53:58.329 A few people I know who have suffered from ALS, 00:53:58.349 --> 00:54:01.010 there seems to be a common denominator with playing 00:54:01.010 --> 00:54:03.269 football when they were younger. So what about 00:54:03.269 --> 00:54:06.010 some of these neurodegenerative diseases, ALS, 00:54:06.010 --> 00:54:08.150 Parkinson's? What are we seeing as far as the 00:54:08.150 --> 00:54:12.110 correlation between head trauma and these as 00:54:12.110 --> 00:54:14.550 they progress through adulthood? I mean, the 00:54:14.550 --> 00:54:18.130 simple answer is this. And again, it plays on. 00:54:18.780 --> 00:54:22.159 uh bayesian logic meaning we you know for this 00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:25.059 not to be true we have to forget everything we 00:54:25.059 --> 00:54:28.480 know and so if i say to someone go hit your head 00:54:28.480 --> 00:54:30.599 against a wall for a certain amount of time every 00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:34.079 day can we expect there can be some negative 00:54:34.079 --> 00:54:37.480 impact using corollary right this is likely to 00:54:37.480 --> 00:54:41.530 happen to some percentage um yeah We've known 00:54:41.530 --> 00:54:45.210 this. I mean, this is not new. If we think about 00:54:45.210 --> 00:54:49.050 the degenerative disorders first being recorded 00:54:49.050 --> 00:54:53.670 in extreme jobs or hard work or also in sport, 00:54:53.869 --> 00:54:59.690 we're looking at 1800s, I believe. And so this 00:54:59.690 --> 00:55:02.329 has been recorded in the annals of science, like 00:55:02.329 --> 00:55:04.309 something's happening here and it isn't good. 00:55:04.969 --> 00:55:10.610 It is, again, I go back to... Do we want to hear 00:55:10.610 --> 00:55:14.969 this story? Do we want to have compassion about 00:55:14.969 --> 00:55:19.369 this? Or do we want to believe in myths and false 00:55:19.369 --> 00:55:21.670 narratives of individual ruggedness? Oh, if they 00:55:21.670 --> 00:55:26.809 were just stronger. And are we talking about 00:55:26.809 --> 00:55:29.469 these things to make change to people who are 00:55:29.469 --> 00:55:33.559 paid not to hear it? I mean, we have an example 00:55:33.559 --> 00:55:35.840 live in North American pro sports. So the NFL, 00:55:35.920 --> 00:55:37.320 it took them long enough, but they eventually 00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:40.900 admitted that there are hazards to the job. And 00:55:40.900 --> 00:55:42.880 really that's all they've said. And that's not 00:55:42.880 --> 00:55:45.800 a big movement. Now, granted, yes, they've invested 00:55:45.800 --> 00:55:48.039 some money, although there's some conflicts with 00:55:48.039 --> 00:55:51.099 that. They've always left teams to do the league 00:55:51.099 --> 00:55:53.059 minimum and do whatever you want beyond that. 00:55:53.199 --> 00:55:55.500 When I was with New England, there was a league 00:55:55.500 --> 00:55:57.949 minimum, but we always went beyond that. I happened 00:55:57.949 --> 00:56:00.289 to work for a coach, Bill Belichick, who believed 00:56:00.289 --> 00:56:03.809 very strongly that this is real. This is something 00:56:03.809 --> 00:56:06.789 we should be concerned about. And this is something 00:56:06.789 --> 00:56:09.250 I need to think about that player at 40 and 50. 00:56:09.449 --> 00:56:12.070 And he did. So he allowed his medical staff to 00:56:12.070 --> 00:56:14.469 go much farther to protect the athletes. Eventually, 00:56:14.550 --> 00:56:16.849 the league also moved to having people on injured 00:56:16.849 --> 00:56:19.269 reserve who you could bring back, which was another 00:56:19.269 --> 00:56:21.690 wonderful thing and another wonderful adaptation. 00:56:22.210 --> 00:56:25.650 But all the league has said is there's hazards 00:56:25.650 --> 00:56:27.750 to the job. That's good, though, in some ways. 00:56:27.809 --> 00:56:29.989 It gives autonomy, choice and informed consent 00:56:29.989 --> 00:56:32.329 to people. This is what I'm walking into. But 00:56:32.329 --> 00:56:35.010 the live example of the ignorance of being paid 00:56:35.010 --> 00:56:38.289 not to be clear about this stuff is the NHL. 00:56:38.369 --> 00:56:40.409 They still don't admit they're playing hockey 00:56:40.409 --> 00:56:45.590 with skate speeds at 34 to 45 miles per hour, 00:56:45.670 --> 00:56:49.190 puck speed up to over 100 miles per hour, and 00:56:49.190 --> 00:56:51.829 then crossing routes and walls that you're crashing 00:56:51.829 --> 00:56:55.559 into at those speeds. ah it doesn't doesn't affect 00:56:55.559 --> 00:56:59.320 brain health so the common knowledge is we would 00:56:59.320 --> 00:57:02.260 have to forget all science of what we know for 00:57:02.260 --> 00:57:04.699 there not to be a corollary in degenerative diseases 00:57:04.699 --> 00:57:08.139 yeah that's that's interesting the way you said 00:57:08.139 --> 00:57:10.739 that you know paid paid to to not acknowledge 00:57:10.739 --> 00:57:12.880 i mean that's that's pretty much prevalent right 00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:15.889 now for example but um All right, we're shifting 00:57:15.889 --> 00:57:17.969 to the psychology side. Let's go all the way 00:57:17.969 --> 00:57:20.329 back. As you were progressing through the school 00:57:20.329 --> 00:57:22.429 ages, was that something you were already interested 00:57:22.429 --> 00:57:25.670 in? Or was that something that came later? It's 00:57:25.670 --> 00:57:28.369 a great question. Love that question. Origin 00:57:28.369 --> 00:57:32.369 questions are always wonderful. I think there 00:57:32.369 --> 00:57:34.510 was always a piece, and especially having an 00:57:34.510 --> 00:57:36.530 older brother who is developmentally delayed. 00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:40.139 i there was a part of me and this wasn't i think 00:57:40.139 --> 00:57:41.739 there were multiple things that drove me into 00:57:41.739 --> 00:57:43.960 psychology and really my interest level and my 00:57:43.960 --> 00:57:45.900 curiosity but that was one trying to understand 00:57:45.900 --> 00:57:50.900 why uh was my brother as he was and then even 00:57:50.900 --> 00:57:54.500 more importantly seeing how people reacted to 00:57:54.500 --> 00:57:57.780 him so one of one of my earliest memories so 00:57:57.780 --> 00:58:00.000 my brother tom he was a very skilled athlete 00:58:01.739 --> 00:58:04.860 He actually was quite coordinated, loved to ride 00:58:04.860 --> 00:58:07.659 his bike. I swear to God, I don't know. We didn't 00:58:07.659 --> 00:58:10.820 have those on his bike. We didn't have any tools 00:58:10.820 --> 00:58:13.599 to measure how much he rode. I would say by a 00:58:13.599 --> 00:58:16.699 day, he was probably out there at least three 00:58:16.699 --> 00:58:21.179 to four hours every day. And so fitness level 00:58:21.179 --> 00:58:23.659 was just through the roof. And so when he did 00:58:23.659 --> 00:58:26.119 other things. But one of the observations I would 00:58:26.119 --> 00:58:30.559 make is around the neighborhood. There were certain 00:58:30.559 --> 00:58:33.539 people who would not let their kids play with 00:58:33.539 --> 00:58:35.980 my older brother. They would not let them even 00:58:35.980 --> 00:58:39.820 near him. So that level of knowledge about this 00:58:39.820 --> 00:58:43.739 isn't contagious, he's not harmful. And in fact, 00:58:43.739 --> 00:58:47.300 his temperament is amazing. His temperament is 00:58:47.300 --> 00:58:51.179 absolutely so friendly and gregarious. But there 00:58:51.179 --> 00:58:55.820 was one family, and the family was African American. 00:58:56.409 --> 00:58:59.349 And the majority of the neighborhood where I 00:58:59.349 --> 00:59:03.429 grew up was Caucasian, was white, European based. 00:59:04.150 --> 00:59:07.050 It changed over time. But I remember particularly 00:59:07.050 --> 00:59:09.610 this one family, because at the time they probably 00:59:09.610 --> 00:59:13.269 were one of the very few minorities. And Tom 00:59:13.269 --> 00:59:15.190 loved playing basketball. And he was quite good 00:59:15.190 --> 00:59:20.929 at that as well. And he would ride over, ride, 00:59:21.010 --> 00:59:22.550 ride, ride. And then he'd stop in front of the 00:59:22.550 --> 00:59:24.929 house and watch him play basketball. And I watched. 00:59:25.519 --> 00:59:28.920 their father invite him to play with his kids 00:59:28.920 --> 00:59:32.639 and there was something there about the social 00:59:32.639 --> 00:59:35.940 dynamics of why people make choices and the compassion 00:59:35.940 --> 00:59:38.800 and the concern and the empathy and and that 00:59:38.800 --> 00:59:42.460 has always stayed with me um why we do the things 00:59:42.460 --> 00:59:46.500 we do why we keep people out uh why do we create 00:59:46.500 --> 00:59:50.130 closed environments I also think I was driven 00:59:50.130 --> 00:59:53.409 to it by the curiosity that my parents instilled 00:59:53.409 --> 00:59:56.269 in me and wanting to understand why and drilling 00:59:56.269 --> 00:59:58.929 down on that. And then the other thing that drew 00:59:58.929 --> 01:00:01.909 me to it was, so I was an athlete and I just 01:00:01.909 --> 01:00:08.050 figured sweat wasn't enough. And it isn't. More 01:00:08.050 --> 01:00:11.730 isn't better. So how do you put a program together 01:00:11.730 --> 01:00:14.869 that touches on all the things, physical, emotional, 01:00:15.050 --> 01:00:18.269 cognitive, the needs of any sport? And sports 01:00:18.269 --> 01:00:19.949 psychology was quite young at that point, but 01:00:19.949 --> 01:00:24.590 I was reading stuff at my level. And that was 01:00:24.590 --> 01:00:27.199 really mentorship at the university level. with 01:00:27.199 --> 01:00:29.719 a great mentor and great professor who really 01:00:29.719 --> 01:00:32.539 kind of allowed me to see yes, there's this sub 01:00:32.539 --> 01:00:34.460 discipline of sports psychology and psychology. 01:00:34.960 --> 01:00:37.519 But there's also all of this. And to be good 01:00:37.519 --> 01:00:39.539 at that sub discipline, you have to be good at 01:00:39.539 --> 01:00:43.519 all these other things. And so those were the 01:00:43.519 --> 01:00:46.079 things I think the major drivers, you know, that 01:00:46.079 --> 01:00:49.059 my brother, my parents instill in curiosity, 01:00:49.400 --> 01:00:52.519 my curiosity about this kind of be more of this 01:00:52.519 --> 01:00:55.639 and just going out for a run, or just on the 01:00:55.639 --> 01:00:58.679 practice. pitch and so that that kind of drove 01:00:58.679 --> 01:01:00.599 and then having someone that was really hand 01:01:00.599 --> 01:01:03.460 -holding me through seeing bigger picture those 01:01:03.460 --> 01:01:07.820 were the drivers what have you seen as far as 01:01:07.820 --> 01:01:11.780 the metamorphosis of how your brother and a lot 01:01:11.780 --> 01:01:13.400 of other people and you know and the different 01:01:13.400 --> 01:01:15.860 special needs groups are being received through 01:01:15.860 --> 01:01:19.639 my eyes i reflect back to you know when i was 01:01:19.639 --> 01:01:22.059 young and certainly was not around a group of 01:01:22.059 --> 01:01:25.139 people that were ever negatively thinking about 01:01:25.139 --> 01:01:27.460 that, but it just wasn't really something you 01:01:27.460 --> 01:01:31.019 interacted with that much. Today, I'm sure the 01:01:31.019 --> 01:01:33.960 adaptive community coming back from war is part 01:01:33.960 --> 01:01:36.579 of this, but I feel like it's done a full 180. 01:01:36.760 --> 01:01:40.179 I had Nick Nickich on the show, who's the young 01:01:40.179 --> 01:01:42.219 man with Down syndrome that did the Hawaiian 01:01:42.219 --> 01:01:46.699 triathlon, Ironman. You're just seeing a completely 01:01:46.699 --> 01:01:49.519 different representation today than when we were 01:01:49.519 --> 01:01:51.539 young. but you've obviously got this in your 01:01:51.539 --> 01:01:53.380 family. What have you seen as far as the way 01:01:53.380 --> 01:01:55.019 that your brother has been received over the 01:01:55.019 --> 01:01:58.679 last few decades? It's funny you mentioned that 01:01:58.679 --> 01:02:02.219 individual because when I saw that feat, I could 01:02:02.219 --> 01:02:04.679 have seen my brother do that. Certainly we weren't 01:02:04.679 --> 01:02:07.159 there and triathlon wasn't, you know, it didn't 01:02:07.159 --> 01:02:10.380 come out until much later. But I definitely could 01:02:10.380 --> 01:02:12.119 have seen him do that. He actually was a very 01:02:12.119 --> 01:02:15.079 talented swimmer and runner as well. It was an 01:02:15.079 --> 01:02:18.139 amazing opportunity. But I have seen a complete 01:02:18.139 --> 01:02:20.119 change. What you're describing in a lot of ways 01:02:20.119 --> 01:02:24.889 is the seed change of stigma. related to mental 01:02:24.889 --> 01:02:28.829 health. And we've seen it in so many spaces that 01:02:28.829 --> 01:02:31.530 it has become a critical mass in a lot of ways. 01:02:31.650 --> 01:02:33.650 I'm in a country that actually where stigma is 01:02:33.650 --> 01:02:36.409 very high here in New Zealand. The mental health 01:02:36.409 --> 01:02:40.090 status of the country is, for a World Health 01:02:40.090 --> 01:02:43.510 Organization standards, one of the worst among 01:02:43.510 --> 01:02:47.489 modern countries. However, yes, highest suicide 01:02:47.489 --> 01:02:50.989 rate, 13 to 35, both male and female. What's 01:02:50.989 --> 01:02:54.400 the root of that? It's a number of different 01:02:54.400 --> 01:02:56.559 things. And really, if you track on what I'm 01:02:56.559 --> 01:02:58.880 really describing is what's changed in North 01:02:58.880 --> 01:03:01.480 America, that will be the seed change here. I 01:03:01.480 --> 01:03:03.539 have great hope in that. This is a country that's 01:03:03.539 --> 01:03:06.179 very capable. It's very possible that they could 01:03:06.179 --> 01:03:09.460 do it in even a very quick time. But what you 01:03:09.460 --> 01:03:11.679 see is one of the things I mentioned earlier, 01:03:11.860 --> 01:03:16.219 a very educated country. So they've done a very 01:03:16.219 --> 01:03:18.360 good job from a government level teaching about 01:03:18.360 --> 01:03:21.119 mental health. But when you educate people about 01:03:21.119 --> 01:03:24.099 mental health, then you also are driving awareness, 01:03:24.380 --> 01:03:28.139 which will then show up as wanting services and 01:03:28.139 --> 01:03:30.340 needs, because they recognize within themselves 01:03:30.340 --> 01:03:32.460 or the people they care about, there's a need. 01:03:32.639 --> 01:03:35.199 But we do not have enough psychologists in country. 01:03:35.559 --> 01:03:37.980 And so what you end up having is then people 01:03:37.980 --> 01:03:40.739 seeking services, not enough people. And if we 01:03:40.739 --> 01:03:43.940 play that out, we know that people who are on 01:03:43.940 --> 01:03:46.380 a waiting list, waiting for treatment, any type 01:03:46.380 --> 01:03:50.059 of treatment, just call it what it is, some people 01:03:50.059 --> 01:03:54.940 drop out. But almost all get worse. And so when 01:03:54.940 --> 01:03:57.940 you have this stagnation of not being able to 01:03:57.940 --> 01:04:00.920 get services, unfortunately, you do not see the 01:04:00.920 --> 01:04:03.000 trends moving in the right direction. I think 01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:06.539 on a simple level, that can get solved in many 01:04:06.539 --> 01:04:08.380 different ways. And part of my role is to help 01:04:08.380 --> 01:04:10.920 with that from a grassroots to a parliamentary 01:04:10.920 --> 01:04:14.420 level. But I think it's very, very doable. I 01:04:14.420 --> 01:04:19.210 think there is stigma here also from the... adopted 01:04:19.210 --> 01:04:21.550 in many ways from the two blending of the cultures 01:04:21.550 --> 01:04:27.389 right stiff upper lip um stay calm and carry 01:04:27.389 --> 01:04:30.690 on yeah and some of that is wonderful don't get 01:04:30.690 --> 01:04:32.789 me wrong i do like that some of that is wonderful 01:04:32.789 --> 01:04:35.329 but when you take that messaging to the nth degree 01:04:35.329 --> 01:04:39.090 of ignore you take it too far and then we know 01:04:39.090 --> 01:04:42.409 about first nation cultures many of them don't 01:04:42.409 --> 01:04:44.809 engage with services for good reasons they don't 01:04:44.809 --> 01:04:48.960 have access It's not acculturated to them. We 01:04:48.960 --> 01:04:51.039 are not messaging in the right ways. We don't 01:04:51.039 --> 01:04:53.119 meet them where they're at. And there's a level 01:04:53.119 --> 01:04:55.519 of concern and paranoia because of how they've 01:04:55.519 --> 01:04:57.880 been treated transgenerationally. So we have 01:04:57.880 --> 01:05:00.699 to bridge those gaps. And that is our responsibility. 01:05:00.860 --> 01:05:03.539 And we have to take that seriously and not go, 01:05:03.599 --> 01:05:05.920 well, that's a you problem. No, no, no, no. That's 01:05:05.920 --> 01:05:08.820 a we problem. And I think what I saw through 01:05:08.820 --> 01:05:11.760 the years of growing up, but also growing up 01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:15.500 in the profession, The US and Canada has done 01:05:15.500 --> 01:05:18.539 a very good job of reducing a lot of that stigma. 01:05:18.599 --> 01:05:21.760 And I'll give one of the areas where, well, two 01:05:21.760 --> 01:05:23.760 of the areas that I've worked in quite a bit, 01:05:23.880 --> 01:05:28.179 working in the military. They had a very much 01:05:28.179 --> 01:05:30.380 an issue with this because mental health, raising 01:05:30.380 --> 01:05:33.420 your hand and saying you have a concern would 01:05:33.420 --> 01:05:36.219 hurt your mission specific readiness. You may 01:05:36.219 --> 01:05:40.260 not be chosen, but also career advancement. And 01:05:40.260 --> 01:05:42.579 that had to change. You're at war 20 years. You 01:05:42.579 --> 01:05:45.199 have to understand there's a hazard to being 01:05:45.199 --> 01:05:48.280 at war. So if we don't take care of people and 01:05:48.280 --> 01:05:50.320 acknowledge the level of prevention that needs 01:05:50.320 --> 01:05:53.199 to be given to people who are doing very, very 01:05:53.199 --> 01:05:55.659 difficult things and that there are going to 01:05:55.659 --> 01:05:58.840 be artifacts of mental health with that, we can't 01:05:58.840 --> 01:06:01.719 hold them to a negative halo. We need to help 01:06:01.719 --> 01:06:04.460 them and then allow them to move on in their 01:06:04.460 --> 01:06:07.940 career. So there was a shift with that. I think 01:06:07.940 --> 01:06:10.099 they did it in a very... It's not perfect, but 01:06:10.099 --> 01:06:15.059 they did it very fast, I would say. I was kind 01:06:15.059 --> 01:06:17.000 of surprised by their speed in being able to 01:06:17.000 --> 01:06:19.219 do that. But I think the command level understood 01:06:19.219 --> 01:06:23.380 we would not have any troop readiness if we ignore 01:06:23.380 --> 01:06:27.780 this. And that is likely true. I think the other 01:06:27.780 --> 01:06:30.500 place is in sport, just by my position. So when 01:06:30.500 --> 01:06:34.159 I started my career, I was the first clinical 01:06:34.159 --> 01:06:37.159 sports psychologist, one of seven, but the first 01:06:37.159 --> 01:06:40.269 at that university, one of seven. in the NCAA, 01:06:40.630 --> 01:06:45.889 1 ,100 schools, and at that time, 550 ,000 athletes. 01:06:46.389 --> 01:06:49.110 Now, you look at the number of clinical sports 01:06:49.110 --> 01:06:52.070 psychologists, registered psychologists working 01:06:52.070 --> 01:06:55.530 in the sports specialty discipline, and certainly 01:06:55.530 --> 01:06:57.590 we don't have every school, but we have the majority 01:06:57.590 --> 01:06:59.710 of schools that either have someone full -time, 01:06:59.849 --> 01:07:03.389 part -time, or consulting in. When I was in the 01:07:03.389 --> 01:07:07.429 NFL, I was only one of four when I first started 01:07:07.429 --> 01:07:10.579 my career in 2000. And so we've seen that seed 01:07:10.579 --> 01:07:14.599 change. And so it is possible, but we have to 01:07:14.599 --> 01:07:17.079 talk about it. Like you've given me this platform. 01:07:17.199 --> 01:07:20.320 Think about what we're talking about. If we go 01:07:20.320 --> 01:07:25.579 back 20 years, I'll give you an amazing example. 01:07:27.300 --> 01:07:30.800 So at one point in time, now this is psychiatry, 01:07:30.820 --> 01:07:35.420 the American Psychiatric Association, someone 01:07:35.420 --> 01:07:41.800 who was a psychiatrist. who was gay, he spoke 01:07:41.800 --> 01:07:46.800 at it in a disguise because he was so fearful 01:07:46.800 --> 01:07:51.539 of the reprisal from his counterparts and peers 01:07:51.539 --> 01:07:54.960 and other professionals that he had to go into 01:07:54.960 --> 01:07:59.860 disguise to talk about homosexuality as not being 01:07:59.860 --> 01:08:06.400 deviant. That was the 1970s. Yeah, it's crazy. 01:08:09.320 --> 01:08:12.019 And so when we think about that arc of kind of 01:08:12.019 --> 01:08:14.199 thinking about holistic health, thinking about 01:08:14.199 --> 01:08:18.460 people that sleep problems and anxiety or depression 01:08:18.460 --> 01:08:21.159 are common things, and there are compensatory 01:08:21.159 --> 01:08:23.979 responses to real life experiences, they have 01:08:23.979 --> 01:08:26.300 nothing to do with weaknesses. They're just signals. 01:08:26.479 --> 01:08:28.939 And if we listen to the signals, we can learn 01:08:28.939 --> 01:08:31.880 how to lean towards resiliency and lessen the 01:08:31.880 --> 01:08:34.199 burden of that, but increase the resiliency that 01:08:34.199 --> 01:08:37.369 that may not happen again. So now we're talking 01:08:37.369 --> 01:08:40.609 about neurological resilience. It's amazing where 01:08:40.609 --> 01:08:44.130 we've come more to do though. Absolutely. Well, 01:08:44.210 --> 01:08:46.390 you just said the S word. So everyone that listens 01:08:46.390 --> 01:08:47.989 to this frequently knows exactly what I'm going 01:08:47.989 --> 01:08:54.390 to ask about next. So let's, I want to get to 01:08:54.390 --> 01:08:56.470 performance. I think this is where this conversation 01:08:56.470 --> 01:08:58.550 needs to go. You work with so many high performers 01:08:58.550 --> 01:09:02.390 in uniform and, you know, sports teams. But before 01:09:02.390 --> 01:09:06.890 we do, you know, the. The profession that I work 01:09:06.890 --> 01:09:10.109 in, and I've contrasted this and compared this 01:09:10.109 --> 01:09:13.869 with a lot of the SF special operations warfighters 01:09:13.869 --> 01:09:17.010 I had on the show, unlike people like Jeff, who 01:09:17.010 --> 01:09:19.270 had psychologists, had strength and conditioning 01:09:19.270 --> 01:09:22.270 coaches, had the latest and greatest technology, 01:09:22.430 --> 01:09:25.050 and they got to really kind of figure it out 01:09:25.050 --> 01:09:26.710 and then disseminate it to the rest of the SEAL 01:09:26.710 --> 01:09:30.409 teams. In the fire service, if you had a psychologist 01:09:30.409 --> 01:09:34.149 coming, they're coming to say, hey, let's try 01:09:34.149 --> 01:09:35.930 and... help some of them because they're broken. 01:09:36.010 --> 01:09:37.470 If you have a strength and conditioning coach, 01:09:37.510 --> 01:09:39.609 it's like, we'll give a talk on how to maybe 01:09:39.609 --> 01:09:41.930 avoid a heart attack. You know, we're not even 01:09:41.930 --> 01:09:44.510 close to performance. And this is, you know, 01:09:44.529 --> 01:09:47.850 a population that's working awake, you know, 01:09:47.850 --> 01:09:50.869 two or three days a week, 24 hours at a time, 01:09:50.890 --> 01:09:54.369 you know, so 24 on 48 off is the, you know, minimum, 01:09:54.390 --> 01:09:56.850 but then you have the staffing crisis. So now 01:09:56.850 --> 01:10:01.149 you have, you know, maybe 48 on 24 off. So talk 01:10:01.149 --> 01:10:04.180 to me first about, you know, through your lens 01:10:04.180 --> 01:10:06.399 without loading the question, the importance 01:10:06.399 --> 01:10:09.060 of sleep from, you know, whether it's the mental 01:10:09.060 --> 01:10:11.420 health side, the physical health side, and then 01:10:11.420 --> 01:10:16.159 obviously cognition as well. No, I'm really glad 01:10:16.159 --> 01:10:18.659 that, you know, historically you've anchored 01:10:18.659 --> 01:10:22.560 here because there's one thing that all of us 01:10:22.560 --> 01:10:25.979 have management over every day and we spend one 01:10:25.979 --> 01:10:29.840 third of our life in sleep. that we have management 01:10:29.840 --> 01:10:31.939 over to improve our health and our performance, 01:10:32.060 --> 01:10:34.479 and they're always interconnected, it is sleep. 01:10:34.779 --> 01:10:37.520 That is our number one hands -down performance 01:10:37.520 --> 01:10:41.460 enhancer. And it's often overlooked. That advantage 01:10:41.460 --> 01:10:43.479 is given away if we think about it from a competitive 01:10:43.479 --> 01:10:45.979 advantage. But it's also a career maturity advantage 01:10:45.979 --> 01:10:48.760 for every individual, no matter what profession 01:10:48.760 --> 01:10:51.760 they're in. And so if we want to have health 01:10:51.760 --> 01:10:54.159 and that balance, we shouldn't be giving that 01:10:54.159 --> 01:10:56.770 away. We should be protecting it. and and certainly 01:10:56.770 --> 01:10:58.810 we can talk about naps too because they're interconnected 01:10:58.810 --> 01:11:02.289 uh through our chronobiology both are very interconnected 01:11:02.289 --> 01:11:05.229 um and that one's probably a tighter neurological 01:11:05.229 --> 01:11:08.149 pathway that we actually make sure no one gets 01:11:08.149 --> 01:11:12.670 to do except when we're in early grades right 01:11:12.670 --> 01:11:17.130 um from a sleep standpoint And I'm going to speak 01:11:17.130 --> 01:11:18.909 about some technology that can help some people. 01:11:19.029 --> 01:11:21.210 And to be very clear, I work as a scientific 01:11:21.210 --> 01:11:22.930 advisor for some of these companies, but I do 01:11:22.930 --> 01:11:25.430 not get paid. I've never gotten paid as a scientific 01:11:25.430 --> 01:11:27.729 advisor. I really see that as a direct conflict. 01:11:27.970 --> 01:11:30.229 I know I'm leaving money on the table, but I'd 01:11:30.229 --> 01:11:32.449 rather because my integrity is not for sale. 01:11:32.729 --> 01:11:36.630 And I like to be able to speak clearly to technology 01:11:36.630 --> 01:11:38.310 companies who are really trying to help health 01:11:38.310 --> 01:11:40.350 and performance when they're not doing science 01:11:40.350 --> 01:11:43.529 or question the science. Always kind of be probative 01:11:43.529 --> 01:11:47.340 about that. But if we look at sleep, And we look 01:11:47.340 --> 01:11:50.840 at your profession and having worked in it. If 01:11:50.840 --> 01:11:55.720 you're creating disruptions, then you have to 01:11:55.720 --> 01:11:58.960 start leaning on the prevention side. So prevention 01:11:58.960 --> 01:12:01.760 saves money, saves talent, saves career maturity, 01:12:01.960 --> 01:12:03.340 saves opportunities. Doesn't matter if we're 01:12:03.340 --> 01:12:05.680 talking about pro sport, firefighting, or special 01:12:05.680 --> 01:12:08.399 operations. And when you start to look at it 01:12:08.399 --> 01:12:11.119 from a prevention standpoint, you're looking 01:12:11.119 --> 01:12:14.170 at it from a holistic standpoint. Because if 01:12:14.170 --> 01:12:17.550 you don't, you will lose talent. And if we think 01:12:17.550 --> 01:12:19.250 of it from a firefighter standpoint, it's very 01:12:19.250 --> 01:12:20.930 important you have early career professionals, 01:12:21.189 --> 01:12:23.010 mid -career professionals, late career professionals. 01:12:23.149 --> 01:12:26.210 That whole mentoring, right? To be an expert 01:12:26.210 --> 01:12:28.010 in anything, it just means that you've made every 01:12:28.010 --> 01:12:29.909 mistake there is to make in a limited bandwidth 01:12:29.909 --> 01:12:33.409 of the field. If you do not have late career 01:12:33.409 --> 01:12:36.109 professionals who can mentor because they're 01:12:36.109 --> 01:12:40.050 broken, how do you then have this pathway? of 01:12:40.050 --> 01:12:43.210 mentorship towards expertise or something that's 01:12:43.210 --> 01:12:45.710 been around to the medieval times apprenticeships 01:12:45.710 --> 01:12:48.670 that's how higher ed works that's how i got my 01:12:48.670 --> 01:12:52.109 doctorate and so you have to start thinking from 01:12:52.109 --> 01:12:54.970 a preventative standpoint so if you're not allowing 01:12:54.970 --> 01:12:56.970 people to sleep seven to ten hours and that's 01:12:56.970 --> 01:12:59.670 a healthy range then we need to be educating 01:12:59.670 --> 01:13:03.970 about or using technology to augment those circadian 01:13:03.970 --> 01:13:07.270 rhythms to have stabilization so one of the ways 01:13:07.270 --> 01:13:09.310 you can stabilize that is through blue light 01:13:09.310 --> 01:13:11.970 therapy a company i've worked with and used quite 01:13:11.970 --> 01:13:14.369 frequently and have used it in elite sport as 01:13:14.369 --> 01:13:18.510 well as i use it now in new zealand being the 01:13:18.510 --> 01:13:20.130 head of psychology for high performance sport 01:13:20.130 --> 01:13:22.369 new zealand our closest competitors are three 01:13:22.369 --> 01:13:26.329 hour flight a two time zone shift so why would 01:13:26.329 --> 01:13:28.229 i give away health advantage and competitive 01:13:28.229 --> 01:13:31.310 advantage by not adjusting that so we use a company 01:13:31.310 --> 01:13:36.329 ayo they make blue light glasses you to help 01:13:36.329 --> 01:13:38.670 with circadian shifts they have an app that helps 01:13:38.670 --> 01:13:42.069 you time it where am i going to when am i landing 01:13:42.069 --> 01:13:45.529 so you know when to use the glasses and admit 01:13:45.529 --> 01:13:48.109 kind of it just emits a light blue light in your 01:13:48.109 --> 01:13:50.329 eyes you don't stare at it it comes at an angle 01:13:50.329 --> 01:13:52.909 almost like the sun and that's what we're mimicking 01:13:52.909 --> 01:13:56.430 we're mimicking frequencies of sunlight to re 01:13:56.430 --> 01:13:59.510 -pattern feeling fresh and being on the time 01:13:59.510 --> 01:14:02.289 zone when you land also dealing with jet lag 01:14:02.289 --> 01:14:04.319 on the way back The other thing blue light can 01:14:04.319 --> 01:14:06.699 do is reduce a little bit of your caffeine intake. 01:14:06.859 --> 01:14:10.880 You can do a session for like 10 minutes and 01:14:10.880 --> 01:14:14.939 peak your attention span and your alertness, 01:14:15.159 --> 01:14:17.619 but you're not then waiting for a chemical to 01:14:17.619 --> 01:14:19.380 get out of your system, which then could disrupt 01:14:19.380 --> 01:14:24.699 sleep. So we can work shift work if we give people 01:14:24.699 --> 01:14:27.979 education about sleep and then give them tools 01:14:27.979 --> 01:14:31.659 to assist with that. Another one is a company. 01:14:32.939 --> 01:14:37.000 Ella Mind. So they track your sleep and then 01:14:37.000 --> 01:14:40.380 they've learned through their studies in Alzheimer's, 01:14:40.380 --> 01:14:43.439 which we talked about earlier. So how do we create 01:14:43.439 --> 01:14:46.899 a non -invasive passive way to stimulate areas 01:14:46.899 --> 01:14:50.180 of the brain that have to do with Alzheimer's? 01:14:50.199 --> 01:14:53.949 Well, you do that through small millivolts. through 01:14:53.949 --> 01:14:57.449 the skull or sound through the earway, ear channel, 01:14:57.670 --> 01:14:59.689 because the vagus nerve, which connects the brain, 01:14:59.710 --> 01:15:02.109 the heart and the gut, if you stimulate it at 01:15:02.109 --> 01:15:04.529 the right times, you can extend deep sleep or 01:15:04.529 --> 01:15:07.489 facilitate, you know, falling asleep faster, 01:15:07.670 --> 01:15:10.949 staying asleep and really staying away from any 01:15:10.949 --> 01:15:14.149 disruptions. And so that technology I'll use 01:15:14.149 --> 01:15:16.229 if people are still having jet lag effects and 01:15:16.229 --> 01:15:18.729 middle insomnia. So that's that middle portion 01:15:18.729 --> 01:15:20.810 of sleep. You fall asleep quick. You can stay 01:15:20.810 --> 01:15:22.569 asleep right in the middle of the night. You 01:15:22.569 --> 01:15:24.529 wake up and you're alert and you can't get back 01:15:24.529 --> 01:15:27.890 to sleep. This device will sense as you're coming 01:15:27.890 --> 01:15:33.750 out, stimulate your brain to stay back in. And 01:15:33.750 --> 01:15:36.510 then another tool I use is Muse S. They're a 01:15:36.510 --> 01:15:38.630 company that makes a band that can help with 01:15:38.630 --> 01:15:41.130 reading brainwaves. You can use it for meditation, 01:15:41.250 --> 01:15:44.109 but it also is pretty much a take -home sleep 01:15:44.109 --> 01:15:47.649 study in a box. so you look at that sort of stuff 01:15:47.649 --> 01:15:49.670 it can give you feedback but give a practitioner 01:15:49.670 --> 01:15:52.510 like me feedback and then we can look at ways 01:15:52.510 --> 01:15:55.869 to advance your environment advance how you sleep 01:15:55.869 --> 01:15:59.010 when you sleep so we have these tools now to 01:15:59.010 --> 01:16:02.510 really protect sleep as its primary health and 01:16:02.510 --> 01:16:06.470 performance optimizer but also so does everyone 01:16:06.470 --> 01:16:09.720 that's listening these are very inexpensive clinical 01:16:09.720 --> 01:16:12.659 grade consumer technology that they have done 01:16:12.659 --> 01:16:14.520 the hard yards of science. They're not trying 01:16:14.520 --> 01:16:17.479 to sell you something that kind of works or looks 01:16:17.479 --> 01:16:21.039 sciency. It's legit science that can guide our 01:16:21.039 --> 01:16:24.880 practice. Because in a modern pretense, we have 01:16:24.880 --> 01:16:26.779 everything around us that's here to disrupt our 01:16:26.779 --> 01:16:29.720 sleep. We have full spectrum LED light bulbs 01:16:29.720 --> 01:16:32.279 that disrupt our sense of what time it is in 01:16:32.279 --> 01:16:34.140 the day. All of us in our environments. Yes, 01:16:34.159 --> 01:16:35.979 we're saving money, but if you don't understand 01:16:35.979 --> 01:16:39.380 how they disrupt coronal biology, that's not 01:16:39.380 --> 01:16:43.100 good. Our phones are set to disrupt our sleep 01:16:43.100 --> 01:16:46.279 through brainwave and radio frequency. And so 01:16:46.279 --> 01:16:48.340 if we give a little bit of education about these 01:16:48.340 --> 01:16:51.340 things, we can really preserve people's talent. 01:16:51.899 --> 01:16:55.460 And so it always saddens me that most people 01:16:55.460 --> 01:16:57.699 what they do know about sleep, some people have 01:16:57.699 --> 01:16:59.500 some good knowledge, but most of us have a lot 01:16:59.500 --> 01:17:01.560 more myths than we actually have knowledge. And 01:17:01.560 --> 01:17:02.920 then we don't know what products are actually 01:17:02.920 --> 01:17:07.779 helpful. One thing I was alluding to was the 01:17:07.779 --> 01:17:10.000 false economy of the way that we're working our 01:17:10.000 --> 01:17:12.680 firefighters. And one of the things that I said 01:17:12.680 --> 01:17:17.420 was lawsuits. Obviously, if a fire engine crashes 01:17:17.420 --> 01:17:19.439 into something, now you've lost a million dollar 01:17:19.439 --> 01:17:21.760 piece of equipment as well. And I've used some 01:17:21.760 --> 01:17:25.579 examples of large disasters in the past to show... 01:17:26.409 --> 01:17:29.229 this one incident costs all this money or all 01:17:29.229 --> 01:17:31.810 these lives in your book, the brain always wins 01:17:31.810 --> 01:17:34.189 too. You've got quite a few of these listed. 01:17:34.409 --> 01:17:38.029 Um, so talk to me about, you know, the, some 01:17:38.029 --> 01:17:39.970 of the biggest tragedies that have been linked 01:17:39.970 --> 01:17:43.489 to sleep deprivation. Well, I love where you're 01:17:43.489 --> 01:17:45.470 going there too, because it's interesting when 01:17:45.470 --> 01:17:49.449 we talk about paid not to see this stuff, and 01:17:49.449 --> 01:17:51.449 then you're unwilling to look and you're becoming 01:17:51.449 --> 01:17:54.090 a bean counter. You're looking at the dollars 01:17:54.090 --> 01:17:56.949 and cents or the pounds and pence, and you're 01:17:56.949 --> 01:18:01.279 not willing to see that ROI or loss of ROI. It 01:18:01.279 --> 01:18:04.539 is a very confusing world. And so I can only 01:18:04.539 --> 01:18:06.859 imagine the frustration you've experienced, but 01:18:06.859 --> 01:18:08.819 I'm glad you've pointed these things out because 01:18:08.819 --> 01:18:13.000 it changes the discussion points, which is critical. 01:18:13.720 --> 01:18:17.159 There is a cost. As you were talking, one of 01:18:17.159 --> 01:18:18.859 the examples I'll quickly go into and then the 01:18:18.859 --> 01:18:22.039 tragedy. So we know for police officers, we look 01:18:22.039 --> 01:18:25.100 at people of service. If you are constantly keeping 01:18:25.100 --> 01:18:29.380 them on this shift work, the brain is wired to 01:18:29.380 --> 01:18:33.539 predict. If an individual is under seven hours 01:18:33.539 --> 01:18:36.520 of sleep, they are more likely to see pre -fight 01:18:36.520 --> 01:18:39.760 indicators in an interaction with a citizen. 01:18:40.319 --> 01:18:43.140 That's a problem. It's a problem we can solve. 01:18:43.439 --> 01:18:45.020 Why does the brain do that? First of all, the 01:18:45.020 --> 01:18:47.479 brain is wired to survive. You're in a situation 01:18:47.479 --> 01:18:51.949 where at any time something can happen. When 01:18:51.949 --> 01:18:54.329 we don't sleep seven hours, we all get a bit 01:18:54.329 --> 01:18:56.569 more anxious. It's because the brain knows what 01:18:56.569 --> 01:18:59.050 it has in its energy bank, and it's predicting 01:18:59.050 --> 01:19:02.210 outwards. So it's also keeping us on our toes 01:19:02.210 --> 01:19:04.510 to be more hypervigilant. Well, that's not a 01:19:04.510 --> 01:19:06.489 great scenario for someone who's got to serve 01:19:06.489 --> 01:19:09.449 and protect. And so when we don't think about 01:19:09.449 --> 01:19:11.390 how this affects the brain and think about it 01:19:11.390 --> 01:19:15.010 from a brain first standpoint, it's easy to ignore 01:19:15.010 --> 01:19:18.819 everything else. And that happens. But when we 01:19:18.819 --> 01:19:21.619 look at world tragedies, there are so many seminal 01:19:21.619 --> 01:19:24.159 moments. I'll talk about one that was recent, 01:19:24.220 --> 01:19:30.279 not far from where I am in Australia. So one 01:19:30.279 --> 01:19:33.439 that was really most recent and we've seen and 01:19:33.439 --> 01:19:37.239 we know that takes a lot. It's a very stressful 01:19:37.239 --> 01:19:40.430 job to be an air traffic controller. is one of 01:19:40.430 --> 01:19:42.590 the highest stress jobs. You think about it one 01:19:42.590 --> 01:19:45.970 moment at a time and a mishap and you have carnage 01:19:45.970 --> 01:19:48.810 on your hands, in the air and on the ground. 01:19:49.430 --> 01:19:52.510 And so there was an incident in Australia where 01:19:52.510 --> 01:19:54.930 actually an air traffic controller who had to 01:19:54.930 --> 01:19:57.970 work three shifts, who actually fell asleep on 01:19:57.970 --> 01:20:01.609 the job. So at that moment, the sky was not being 01:20:01.609 --> 01:20:05.529 observed. It was not being communicated to. And 01:20:05.529 --> 01:20:09.789 that also on the ground. lining up to land in 01:20:09.789 --> 01:20:16.590 an airport was completely unobserved. And that 01:20:16.590 --> 01:20:19.689 was easily something that could have been mitigated. 01:20:20.449 --> 01:20:24.069 You cannot put people in those positions that 01:20:24.069 --> 01:20:30.010 are under rested and unavailable from a physical, 01:20:30.130 --> 01:20:33.569 cognitive and emotional standpoint. Because I'll 01:20:33.569 --> 01:20:36.640 bring it back to our listeners, all of us I've 01:20:36.640 --> 01:20:38.640 probably experienced it. If you haven't, I'm 01:20:38.640 --> 01:20:43.680 very thankful. I've gotten tired driving. And 01:20:43.680 --> 01:20:46.260 you can get to a state we call micro sleep, where 01:20:46.260 --> 01:20:48.680 you're actually able to take in some perception 01:20:48.680 --> 01:20:51.539 of what you're doing, but your reaction time 01:20:51.539 --> 01:20:55.060 is so poor to your environment and how much information 01:20:55.060 --> 01:20:58.020 you're taking in and processing that you're pretty 01:20:58.020 --> 01:21:00.199 much sleeping with your eyes open. That's probably 01:21:00.199 --> 01:21:03.699 the layman's way I would explain it. And that's 01:21:03.699 --> 01:21:07.149 basically... an incredibly dangerous environment. 01:21:07.369 --> 01:21:09.529 So we can't be putting people who have to do 01:21:09.529 --> 01:21:11.850 these high complex jobs in that situation. And 01:21:11.850 --> 01:21:14.090 working three shifts in a row, that will do it. 01:21:15.250 --> 01:21:17.909 That will absolutely do it. Two other seminal 01:21:17.909 --> 01:21:19.810 ones that I'll speak to is the Exxon Valdez. 01:21:19.970 --> 01:21:23.350 Most people remember that. Huge damage to the 01:21:23.350 --> 01:21:26.449 environment in Alaska. And when they drew down 01:21:26.449 --> 01:21:29.949 on what it was, it was human error related to 01:21:29.949 --> 01:21:33.819 a lack of rest and a lack of sleep. um i'll go 01:21:33.819 --> 01:21:37.300 with one that dates me a little bit but that's 01:21:37.300 --> 01:21:40.779 okay i'm an old man um but when we look at the 01:21:40.779 --> 01:21:44.460 space shuttle challenger um that was related 01:21:44.460 --> 01:21:48.859 to yes decision making that was not clear that's 01:21:48.859 --> 01:21:52.560 part of it but it also was fatigue of a number 01:21:52.560 --> 01:21:54.659 of individuals who were supposed to do quality 01:21:54.659 --> 01:21:58.520 control related to and so when you have this 01:21:58.520 --> 01:22:01.239 combination of things they come down to human 01:22:01.239 --> 01:22:03.920 factors, but often they're related to this fatigue. 01:22:04.199 --> 01:22:06.840 One that just recently happened, I just thought 01:22:06.840 --> 01:22:10.060 of, that's not in the book. It happened to the 01:22:10.060 --> 01:22:17.699 New Zealand Defense Force Navy. So they had not 01:22:17.699 --> 01:22:20.479 adapted their protocols to the Australian and 01:22:20.479 --> 01:22:23.880 the US and the UK and the Canadian Navy, where 01:22:23.880 --> 01:22:28.340 you do shifts. So you are having people who are 01:22:28.340 --> 01:22:33.260 on shift conning the ship who are rested, who 01:22:33.260 --> 01:22:35.880 had had seven to 10 hours of sleep. They were 01:22:35.880 --> 01:22:38.739 working, like if you think about in the past, 01:22:39.000 --> 01:22:41.460 because we don't tend to do this anymore in North 01:22:41.460 --> 01:22:43.279 America, although it depends upon the hospital, 01:22:43.479 --> 01:22:47.500 of putting doctors on shifts of 32 hours straight. 01:22:47.859 --> 01:22:50.260 And so they were putting their sailors on shifts 01:22:50.260 --> 01:22:54.359 of 32 hours straight, and they lost a ship. They 01:22:54.359 --> 01:22:57.760 ran aground, and it sank. When we think about 01:22:57.760 --> 01:22:59.960 that, that's millions of dollars like you're 01:22:59.960 --> 01:23:02.279 saying. I think it was 63 million. It might have 01:23:02.279 --> 01:23:04.399 been more than that, but that's what I recall. 01:23:05.159 --> 01:23:08.319 We can prevent these things. These are completely 01:23:08.319 --> 01:23:12.960 preventable. I'll give you an example for something 01:23:12.960 --> 01:23:18.859 that people have seen. If you've seen the movie 01:23:18.859 --> 01:23:23.289 Lone Survivor. You saw an example of preserving 01:23:23.289 --> 01:23:28.149 human expertise in the ability to actually act 01:23:28.149 --> 01:23:32.310 with precision. So when they were in Overwatch 01:23:32.310 --> 01:23:34.869 and they were just observing the village in the 01:23:34.869 --> 01:23:38.210 movie, three people slept, three people are up, 01:23:38.289 --> 01:23:43.510 and they shift. You teach people at that level 01:23:43.510 --> 01:23:48.109 that your weapon is your brain. Everything else 01:23:48.109 --> 01:23:51.310 is complementary. Because if you have the ability 01:23:51.310 --> 01:23:54.750 to think through and process and decide, then 01:23:54.750 --> 01:23:57.470 you have better opportunities. Not everyone was 01:23:57.470 --> 01:24:00.850 up. And that actually was a bit controversial 01:24:00.850 --> 01:24:05.869 because it was giving away methods and ways of 01:24:05.869 --> 01:24:10.670 practice. But that was live in the movie. Well, 01:24:10.689 --> 01:24:12.510 speaking of that, you're talking now forging 01:24:12.510 --> 01:24:14.729 performance, even though under incredible duress 01:24:14.729 --> 01:24:17.949 in that particular example. Talk to me about, 01:24:17.989 --> 01:24:19.810 we've got this lack of cognition. I think one 01:24:19.810 --> 01:24:21.949 of the things that one of my previous guests 01:24:21.949 --> 01:24:26.350 said that when they did the analysis of accidents 01:24:26.350 --> 01:24:30.329 involving police, fire, EMS vehicles, they said 01:24:30.329 --> 01:24:33.470 nearly always there was an absence of tire tracks, 01:24:33.729 --> 01:24:36.569 of skid marks because of those microsleeps. So 01:24:36.569 --> 01:24:38.569 they just drove right into the minivan full of 01:24:38.569 --> 01:24:40.770 kids because they were saving some money and 01:24:40.770 --> 01:24:44.619 forced someone to work an extra shift. Now, so 01:24:44.619 --> 01:24:46.819 that's obviously the detrimental side. Talk to 01:24:46.819 --> 01:24:50.840 me about performance. So just one poor sleep, 01:24:51.039 --> 01:24:53.479 how has that affected some of these elite teams? 01:24:55.279 --> 01:24:57.720 Well, again, one of the things is, is you think 01:24:57.720 --> 01:25:00.319 thoughtfully about your plan and I can compare 01:25:00.319 --> 01:25:02.979 it to firefighters. So if we know that there 01:25:02.979 --> 01:25:05.399 are certain demands you have to meet, we can 01:25:05.399 --> 01:25:07.779 prepare the central nervous system, the neurological 01:25:07.779 --> 01:25:10.800 system to be more resilient in the face of it. 01:25:10.859 --> 01:25:13.689 We can mitigate some of these things. Now, down 01:25:13.689 --> 01:25:16.010 to the individual, we may not mitigate all of 01:25:16.010 --> 01:25:18.449 them. Some people we may be able to. There are 01:25:18.449 --> 01:25:20.689 individual variances and individual differences. 01:25:21.010 --> 01:25:23.609 But if we know that we're going to be going into 01:25:23.609 --> 01:25:26.810 a period of high stress where there may be some 01:25:26.810 --> 01:25:29.970 loss of sleep, why don't we prevent that? Well, 01:25:30.010 --> 01:25:34.909 of course we do. In pro sport, I used to present 01:25:34.909 --> 01:25:38.550 the modeling, mathematical modeling for players 01:25:38.550 --> 01:25:41.750 of what's the return on investment that they're 01:25:41.750 --> 01:25:44.239 ready. Not that they're improving throughout 01:25:44.239 --> 01:25:48.520 the season, that they're able to maintain their 01:25:48.520 --> 01:25:50.300 performance throughout the season. They're not 01:25:50.300 --> 01:25:53.119 peaking. What's the ROI just on that? The availability 01:25:53.119 --> 01:25:56.020 for them to produce their talent and what they're 01:25:56.020 --> 01:25:59.159 good at. And you can produce right down to the 01:25:59.159 --> 01:26:02.140 dollar what that is. And so when you think about 01:26:02.140 --> 01:26:05.359 performance, we have to think about keeping people. 01:26:05.869 --> 01:26:09.430 yes advancing at best but maintaining their talent 01:26:09.430 --> 01:26:14.029 to be able to execute and plan ahead one of the 01:26:14.029 --> 01:26:16.829 worst things that often happens and we should 01:26:16.829 --> 01:26:19.789 learn this from military because most sport comes 01:26:19.789 --> 01:26:24.489 from some history of military so pre -mortem 01:26:24.489 --> 01:26:27.109 planning comes from philosophy but with cognitive 01:26:27.109 --> 01:26:29.270 science we kind of understand percentage points 01:26:29.270 --> 01:26:31.710 of how much we can do by thinking about everything 01:26:31.710 --> 01:26:34.430 that can go wrong and then having a solution 01:26:35.399 --> 01:26:38.520 So if we're looking at shift work, how do we 01:26:38.520 --> 01:26:41.319 do it in the most humane way to keep those physical, 01:26:41.439 --> 01:26:43.680 cognitive, and emotional attributes in check 01:26:43.680 --> 01:26:47.640 and sharp or maintained? We can do that. And 01:26:47.640 --> 01:26:51.399 so what I look at is, what's our planning? And 01:26:51.399 --> 01:26:55.939 there's a Navy SEAL motto, three is two, two 01:26:55.939 --> 01:26:58.989 is one, one is none. So plan A is good as plan 01:26:58.989 --> 01:27:03.149 A, B, C, D, and so on and so forth. And so what 01:27:03.149 --> 01:27:06.029 we do sometimes is we create this ambulance at 01:27:06.029 --> 01:27:07.949 the bottom of the cliff where we're reactive 01:27:07.949 --> 01:27:10.850 instead of proactive. High performance is about 01:27:10.850 --> 01:27:14.890 planning and thinking ahead. It's about preserving 01:27:14.890 --> 01:27:18.750 talent so people can be ready and continue to 01:27:18.750 --> 01:27:21.390 grow. So when I think about those sleep cycles, 01:27:21.569 --> 01:27:23.409 I'll give you an example. We almost had to play 01:27:23.409 --> 01:27:25.510 a game when I was with the New England Patriots 01:27:25.510 --> 01:27:29.220 in China. Now, we had two years to prepare. Never 01:27:29.220 --> 01:27:32.680 happened. But in the background, we were planning 01:27:32.680 --> 01:27:35.619 all the sleeping. We were thinking of all the 01:27:35.619 --> 01:27:37.960 things that can happen. What's our behavior three 01:27:37.960 --> 01:27:41.199 nights before we get on the plane? What do we 01:27:41.199 --> 01:27:44.720 do to bank sleep and prepare and enhance neurological 01:27:44.720 --> 01:27:48.220 resiliency? What do we do on the plane? What 01:27:48.220 --> 01:27:50.079 do we do when we first get off? I'll give you 01:27:50.079 --> 01:27:52.239 an example like a lot of teams will do. Oh, it's 01:27:52.239 --> 01:27:54.260 a perfect time to immediately go to practice. 01:27:55.039 --> 01:27:58.840 Are you kidding me? That's the worst thing. The 01:27:58.840 --> 01:28:01.720 plane is not pressurized to sea level. You've 01:28:01.720 --> 01:28:04.359 just done high altitude training. The best thing 01:28:04.359 --> 01:28:07.479 to do is fuel, nap, and then maybe if there's 01:28:07.479 --> 01:28:09.500 time, go do a workout. Otherwise, you're changing 01:28:09.500 --> 01:28:12.640 injury or learning things that you're never going 01:28:12.640 --> 01:28:15.460 to use because the brain doesn't unlearn. And 01:28:15.460 --> 01:28:18.619 so if we think through things, we can prevent 01:28:18.619 --> 01:28:22.420 talent loss and preserve opportunities. And I 01:28:22.420 --> 01:28:24.520 think that's what we miss out. We're like, oh, 01:28:24.579 --> 01:28:26.979 it'll take care of itself. No, that's not how 01:28:26.979 --> 01:28:31.560 it works. It's not how it works. The other way 01:28:31.560 --> 01:28:33.439 is with sleep, you also can work through the 01:28:33.439 --> 01:28:36.020 gut, the anterior nervous system, which is the 01:28:36.020 --> 01:28:38.119 second largest nervous system in our body next 01:28:38.119 --> 01:28:41.380 to our brain. And so we can work in all these 01:28:41.380 --> 01:28:44.359 multitude of ways to preserve sleep and then 01:28:44.359 --> 01:28:46.640 what we feel on the other side of that. So just 01:28:46.640 --> 01:28:50.880 think it through. Plan, plan, plan. You mentioned 01:28:50.880 --> 01:28:53.020 learning. I want to get to the gut biome as well. 01:28:53.060 --> 01:28:55.750 But before we do. When I did sports science, 01:28:55.869 --> 01:29:00.130 we're talking a long time ago in London. I remember 01:29:00.130 --> 01:29:04.069 them saying, teaching us that, you know, you 01:29:04.069 --> 01:29:07.109 would do the skill, you would do the repetitions, 01:29:07.109 --> 01:29:09.869 but it was actually when you slept that you process 01:29:09.869 --> 01:29:12.890 the skill. Now you come from obviously, you know. 01:29:13.310 --> 01:29:15.989 a group of athletes that are forging a literal 01:29:15.989 --> 01:29:19.350 1 % gain in their skill to try and just squeeze 01:29:19.350 --> 01:29:22.510 out their opposition. But I'm from a profession 01:29:22.510 --> 01:29:24.649 that's literally the first responder Swiss army 01:29:24.649 --> 01:29:27.170 knife. We do fire and we do EMS here. So everything 01:29:27.170 --> 01:29:29.989 from the medical to the rope rescue, to the extrication, 01:29:29.989 --> 01:29:33.829 to the fires, we're at massive skillset, but 01:29:33.829 --> 01:29:37.949 also woefully sleep deprived. So talk to me about. 01:29:38.439 --> 01:29:41.140 the importance of sleep when it comes to learning 01:29:41.140 --> 01:29:44.239 and actually being a better professional in your 01:29:44.239 --> 01:29:47.829 sport or your career. Yeah, I think you're spot 01:29:47.829 --> 01:29:49.909 on. And what you learned there, we've just gotten 01:29:49.909 --> 01:29:52.770 more subtle and nuanced in the knowledge about 01:29:52.770 --> 01:29:56.050 what happens there. But absolutely, the practice 01:29:56.050 --> 01:29:58.829 is basically a stimulation for the learning. 01:29:58.869 --> 01:30:00.949 The learning doesn't encode until you sleep, 01:30:00.949 --> 01:30:03.350 and especially deep sleep. And so what we're 01:30:03.350 --> 01:30:05.430 having there is a memory encoding, basically 01:30:05.430 --> 01:30:09.350 tau proteins and protein synthesis. And so when 01:30:09.350 --> 01:30:11.750 we move through that full channel of recovery, 01:30:12.090 --> 01:30:16.750 brain first, cleans itself. pairs itself, myelinates 01:30:16.750 --> 01:30:19.689 and connects memory, then moves on to all the 01:30:19.689 --> 01:30:24.050 other 11 systems. So what we do now in a lot 01:30:24.050 --> 01:30:29.170 of ways is you want to benchmark training with 01:30:29.170 --> 01:30:32.470 a significant recovery cycle. So what we're trying 01:30:32.470 --> 01:30:35.449 to produce there is a peak in gamma waves in 01:30:35.449 --> 01:30:38.270 the brain. So gamma waves have to do a lot with 01:30:38.270 --> 01:30:42.399 that deep, thoughtful learning. and so we want 01:30:42.399 --> 01:30:45.180 to benchmark immediately with recovery yes it 01:30:45.180 --> 01:30:48.819 may be primary nutrition like hydration and nutrition 01:30:48.819 --> 01:30:52.119 but that just is neurotransmission so we're just 01:30:52.119 --> 01:30:54.899 strengthening the learning process so post something 01:30:54.899 --> 01:30:58.159 you want to fuel but then you want to get good 01:30:58.159 --> 01:31:01.199 rest an example of this in a lot of academic 01:31:01.199 --> 01:31:03.920 institutions now from among their masters and 01:31:03.920 --> 01:31:06.510 doctoral programs you have nap rooms thoughtful 01:31:06.510 --> 01:31:09.630 work thoughtful learning take a nap i teach my 01:31:09.630 --> 01:31:12.109 student athletes that who are in the system in 01:31:12.109 --> 01:31:14.149 the olympic system here and then when i was working 01:31:14.149 --> 01:31:16.729 the ncaa because they are student athletes you 01:31:16.729 --> 01:31:20.569 can use your fitness level to enhance your learning 01:31:20.569 --> 01:31:23.909 do a set of push -ups and sit -ups because it 01:31:23.909 --> 01:31:26.010 doesn't take a lot to push blood flow when you're 01:31:26.010 --> 01:31:31.369 fit right then study Then take a 20 -minute to 01:31:31.369 --> 01:31:35.189 45 -minute nap and code. So close proximity of 01:31:35.189 --> 01:31:39.369 coding. You also can use sensory deprivation 01:31:39.369 --> 01:31:43.569 floating to enhance learning. So training, learning, 01:31:43.850 --> 01:31:48.060 floating. benchmark those two things together. 01:31:48.239 --> 01:31:51.600 And what you have are magnifications of increased 01:31:51.600 --> 01:31:54.399 learning processes. And so you're touching on 01:31:54.399 --> 01:31:57.100 something that you learned back then, still solid 01:31:57.100 --> 01:31:59.760 now, our interventions have grown, our knowledge 01:31:59.760 --> 01:32:04.000 has grown on it, but we often muck that up. We 01:32:04.000 --> 01:32:07.199 often don't pair them together in close proximity. 01:32:07.479 --> 01:32:10.119 And I can give you an example from elite military. 01:32:10.380 --> 01:32:14.079 They've known this for a long time because you 01:32:14.079 --> 01:32:15.800 talk about multiple skill sets that you guys 01:32:15.800 --> 01:32:18.840 have in your current environment of firefighting, 01:32:18.840 --> 01:32:21.220 which is significant. And I appreciate you teaching 01:32:21.220 --> 01:32:22.960 me that. That is significant. That's not the 01:32:22.960 --> 01:32:26.000 same everywhere. But if we look at some of the 01:32:26.000 --> 01:32:28.880 special operations team, they may have to know 01:32:28.880 --> 01:32:32.439 multiple languages. all right so how do you encode 01:32:32.439 --> 01:32:35.899 language learning quickly learning and then sleep 01:32:35.899 --> 01:32:40.720 or floating it enhances that process and this 01:32:40.720 --> 01:32:43.239 this is stuff is not locked away in journal articles 01:32:43.239 --> 01:32:47.460 that can't be seen by the public um you know 01:32:47.460 --> 01:32:49.380 some of the military research i did will never 01:32:49.380 --> 01:32:51.279 see the light of day or if it does it'll be seen 01:32:51.279 --> 01:32:54.159 down the road um but some of this research is 01:32:54.159 --> 01:32:56.859 out there now again uh this is why also we wrote 01:32:56.859 --> 01:32:58.939 the book the brain always wins too and the brain 01:32:58.939 --> 01:33:01.300 always wins was some of this gets locked away 01:33:01.300 --> 01:33:03.340 and doesn't get talked about science is a gift 01:33:03.340 --> 01:33:05.600 for all of us so the techniques and tactics i'm 01:33:05.600 --> 01:33:07.720 talking about we should all know these these 01:33:07.720 --> 01:33:11.340 should be gifts science is a gift so i appreciate 01:33:11.340 --> 01:33:13.420 what you're saying but we don't often benchmark 01:33:13.420 --> 01:33:16.319 them together unfortunately yeah well i think 01:33:16.319 --> 01:33:19.619 that's how you break through some of the naysayers 01:33:19.619 --> 01:33:22.680 so like i said the chess beating dude that grew 01:33:22.680 --> 01:33:24.760 the mustache and bought the leather helmet and 01:33:24.760 --> 01:33:26.619 you know i'll just work the shifts that i work 01:33:26.619 --> 01:33:29.399 and you know mental health is for the weak and 01:33:29.399 --> 01:33:32.140 all this absolute bullshit that you hear some 01:33:32.140 --> 01:33:34.720 of these idiots talking about the way that you 01:33:34.720 --> 01:33:38.300 get through to them i think is performance and 01:33:38.300 --> 01:33:40.420 i'll be interested to get your take on this i 01:33:40.420 --> 01:33:43.020 had a guy on the show logan galbrick who was 01:33:43.020 --> 01:33:44.840 a professional baseball player and he talked 01:33:44.840 --> 01:33:47.840 about one of his flow state moments And he said, 01:33:47.920 --> 01:33:50.159 you need three things. He said, you need, you 01:33:50.159 --> 01:33:52.899 know, the repetitions of the skill, which, you 01:33:52.899 --> 01:33:55.119 know, as we progress through our career, we start 01:33:55.119 --> 01:33:57.279 to have as firefighters. You need high stress. 01:33:57.359 --> 01:33:59.260 Well, yeah, that's inbuilt. No question about 01:33:59.260 --> 01:34:01.420 that. And he said, and you need a calm mind. 01:34:02.220 --> 01:34:03.720 And I was like, well, ding, ding, ding, ding. 01:34:03.880 --> 01:34:06.840 That's what we don't have. So then you, if you 01:34:06.840 --> 01:34:08.880 want to reframe in my, you know, what I've been 01:34:08.880 --> 01:34:11.319 saying is if you want to reframe many of the 01:34:11.319 --> 01:34:13.920 things that work on the mental health side, let's 01:34:13.920 --> 01:34:16.680 talk about performance. You wake up at three 01:34:16.680 --> 01:34:19.159 in the morning, you get on the rig, you drive 01:34:19.159 --> 01:34:21.239 to the fire, you make entry through a ladder, 01:34:21.380 --> 01:34:23.460 through a window on the second floor, and now 01:34:23.460 --> 01:34:26.079 you're searching for a child. But you haven't 01:34:26.079 --> 01:34:28.319 done the work and you're sleep deprived and your 01:34:28.319 --> 01:34:31.340 mind is busy. I would imagine it's impossible 01:34:31.340 --> 01:34:33.399 to get in the flow state where we can really 01:34:33.399 --> 01:34:37.039 read the room with the Braille, as it were. So 01:34:37.039 --> 01:34:40.920 if I am correct, talk to me about... What is 01:34:40.920 --> 01:34:44.220 needed to get into a flow state? And are we blocking 01:34:44.220 --> 01:34:47.920 that by the way that we're working and not accepting 01:34:47.920 --> 01:34:50.079 some of these mental health tools that we know 01:34:50.079 --> 01:34:54.239 work on the other side? It's a great question. 01:34:54.380 --> 01:34:56.640 I'm also going to do a little bit of kind of 01:34:56.640 --> 01:35:00.800 piecing together of what we do know about flow. 01:35:03.119 --> 01:35:06.659 So flow, what we understand is more of distally. 01:35:07.069 --> 01:35:09.670 So Csikszentmihalyi's research is actually, he 01:35:09.670 --> 01:35:13.130 was very fearful of really committing hard science 01:35:13.130 --> 01:35:16.729 to his theory. And like a lot of theories, because 01:35:16.729 --> 01:35:20.029 it seems true and seems accessible, it blew up. 01:35:20.649 --> 01:35:23.979 But the science on it is not very good. Because 01:35:23.979 --> 01:35:26.680 the very fact, if I have to go through nine things 01:35:26.680 --> 01:35:28.640 to get into a flow state, it doesn't describe 01:35:28.640 --> 01:35:31.720 a lot of great, amazing things that people do, 01:35:31.899 --> 01:35:35.619 including in firefighting. I always find it interesting 01:35:35.619 --> 01:35:37.939 when you talk to someone who's done something 01:35:37.939 --> 01:35:41.060 really dramatic, you'll find their eyes will 01:35:41.060 --> 01:35:42.680 go up and to the left because they're creating 01:35:42.680 --> 01:35:45.500 a story. They have no idea how it happened. It's 01:35:45.500 --> 01:35:47.720 an efficient state on the brain of an altered 01:35:47.720 --> 01:35:49.600 state of consciousness. And that's the best we 01:35:49.600 --> 01:35:51.539 know. Even though we have flow states that date 01:35:51.539 --> 01:35:56.000 back to 1700s coming from warfare. It is just 01:35:56.000 --> 01:35:58.119 an efficient state on the brain. So flow is much 01:35:58.119 --> 01:36:02.439 more of a, not a pinpoint, but a range. Because 01:36:02.439 --> 01:36:04.640 we're so resilient as human beings, if it took 01:36:04.640 --> 01:36:07.640 us a pinpoint to perform at the highest level. 01:36:08.350 --> 01:36:11.289 we wouldn't have survived as a species. So it's 01:36:11.289 --> 01:36:14.109 a distal explanation. But to go to your question, 01:36:14.189 --> 01:36:18.050 which is really foundational, can you perform 01:36:18.050 --> 01:36:20.130 within that range with some of the factors you 01:36:20.130 --> 01:36:24.630 gave me? Underslept, underpracticed, or under 01:36:24.630 --> 01:36:28.310 -rehearsed, just maybe through that particular 01:36:28.310 --> 01:36:31.189 skill or that particular scenario, not saying 01:36:31.189 --> 01:36:34.590 unskilled, but in that particular scenario. And 01:36:34.590 --> 01:36:37.409 then certainly overwhelmed with high pressure. 01:36:38.379 --> 01:36:42.880 So I go back to, are we practicing alike elements 01:36:42.880 --> 01:36:45.920 that will transfer? Because if we're not practicing 01:36:45.920 --> 01:36:48.220 alike elements that will transfer, we're not 01:36:48.220 --> 01:36:51.520 going to have management of pressure, which is 01:36:51.520 --> 01:36:54.340 an emotional. Emotions come first in sport and 01:36:54.340 --> 01:36:57.479 life. So it's an emotional response, which cues 01:36:57.479 --> 01:37:00.720 pattern recognition, which then allows someone 01:37:00.720 --> 01:37:05.470 to access. physical and cognitive attributes 01:37:05.470 --> 01:37:08.050 of reading the room and then being able to do 01:37:08.050 --> 01:37:10.090 because it really what it comes down to high 01:37:10.090 --> 01:37:12.310 performance is this on the brain level, see, 01:37:12.529 --> 01:37:18.210 feel do. That that's it. You did it today. I 01:37:18.210 --> 01:37:20.689 did it today. And everyone that's listening has 01:37:20.689 --> 01:37:22.970 probably done it today. You've driven somewhere 01:37:22.970 --> 01:37:27.060 and you have no idea how you got there. The only 01:37:27.060 --> 01:37:29.899 time you have any reference of it is that maybe 01:37:29.899 --> 01:37:31.500 you got detoured and you had to think through 01:37:31.500 --> 01:37:34.840 new steps or new ways to go if your GPS isn't 01:37:34.840 --> 01:37:37.399 on, or you've gotten into a state of frustration 01:37:37.399 --> 01:37:39.920 and road rage. Otherwise, we don't remember it. 01:37:40.899 --> 01:37:46.279 That is a range of efficiency. And a way of understanding 01:37:46.279 --> 01:37:48.220 that is if you've ever had to teach someone to 01:37:48.220 --> 01:37:52.489 drive, you then forget about steps. processes, 01:37:52.489 --> 01:37:55.550 things to do, because it's high performance is 01:37:55.550 --> 01:37:57.270 stored in the area of the brain that you cannot 01:37:57.270 --> 01:38:00.550 consciously accent. That's why if you teach firefighting, 01:38:00.550 --> 01:38:04.430 you have to almost regain your declarative knowledge 01:38:04.430 --> 01:38:08.729 and study that a bit to make sure you don't leave 01:38:08.729 --> 01:38:12.970 anything out. And so what I would say is the 01:38:12.970 --> 01:38:15.810 factors you gave me are defeating that. It's 01:38:15.810 --> 01:38:18.170 not that you can't do the job. There are failure 01:38:18.170 --> 01:38:20.569 points, though, but you can't do the job. It's 01:38:20.569 --> 01:38:22.810 we should be setting people up for more success 01:38:22.810 --> 01:38:26.189 and we should simulate in ways that are safe. 01:38:26.350 --> 01:38:28.930 So once they're in that environment, they can 01:38:28.930 --> 01:38:31.350 even be faster at learning their environment 01:38:31.350 --> 01:38:34.949 and accidents. Brilliant. Well, circling around, 01:38:35.069 --> 01:38:36.970 we talked about, you know, the gut brain connection. 01:38:39.640 --> 01:38:42.199 Some firehouse cooking is amazing. So some of 01:38:42.199 --> 01:38:44.399 the meals I've had have been fantastic, nutritious 01:38:44.399 --> 01:38:48.319 and healthy and all the things. But some of the 01:38:48.319 --> 01:38:50.720 firehouse food is also terrible. And then the 01:38:50.720 --> 01:38:54.000 high concentration of calls that we get, sometimes 01:38:54.000 --> 01:38:57.159 it's an uncrustable in an EMS room in a hospital 01:38:57.159 --> 01:39:01.140 somewhere. So talk to me first again about this 01:39:01.140 --> 01:39:04.420 gut -brain connection and how that affects both 01:39:04.420 --> 01:39:08.239 longevity and performance. It's a great question, 01:39:08.319 --> 01:39:10.960 and I too have had great meals at a firehouse 01:39:10.960 --> 01:39:14.739 before as well, and I remember them fondly. There 01:39:14.739 --> 01:39:18.819 is many a time sitting, and I thought more about 01:39:18.819 --> 01:39:21.920 this coming into this podcast. So I'll thank 01:39:21.920 --> 01:39:23.539 you immediately, and I will answer your question 01:39:23.539 --> 01:39:25.319 with that gift you've given to me. It's brought 01:39:25.319 --> 01:39:28.279 back amazing, amazing memories of being at the 01:39:28.279 --> 01:39:33.199 firehouse. First of all, we're still drilling 01:39:33.199 --> 01:39:35.159 down on this. I think the military is a bit ahead 01:39:35.159 --> 01:39:38.449 from other places. But the enteric nervous system 01:39:38.449 --> 01:39:40.689 has been kind of ignored in a lot of ways in 01:39:40.689 --> 01:39:45.539 the sense that. what goes in gets processed for 01:39:45.539 --> 01:39:48.560 neurotransmission yes we get this gift now of 01:39:48.560 --> 01:39:50.720 eating for ambiance and preference and taste 01:39:50.720 --> 01:39:52.979 but the only reason why we have taste buds is 01:39:52.979 --> 01:39:56.399 was to identify poisonous foods but also the 01:39:56.399 --> 01:39:59.039 only reason why we ate is to produce neurotransmission 01:39:59.039 --> 01:40:01.979 that's still the primary goal right and so if 01:40:01.979 --> 01:40:04.520 we can't create neurotransmission from things 01:40:04.520 --> 01:40:06.739 traveling from the brain to the gut then we're 01:40:06.739 --> 01:40:10.340 not going to have firings in the way that's going 01:40:10.340 --> 01:40:14.300 to uh preserve our talent but also preserve our 01:40:14.300 --> 01:40:18.300 ability to learn and so really when we look at 01:40:18.300 --> 01:40:21.100 this it's critically important that we understand 01:40:21.100 --> 01:40:23.699 nutrition and nutrition is very individualized 01:40:23.699 --> 01:40:26.260 this is another thing we've gotten wrong everything 01:40:26.260 --> 01:40:30.119 in performance and health is individualized for 01:40:30.119 --> 01:40:32.140 instance we can use the simplest example i think 01:40:32.140 --> 01:40:34.199 we might have used it in the book but i could 01:40:34.199 --> 01:40:37.199 eat a carrot and have an allergic reaction you 01:40:37.199 --> 01:40:39.590 could eat a carrot and be able to digest All 01:40:39.590 --> 01:40:42.130 the vitamins, minerals, and carbohydrates, all 01:40:42.130 --> 01:40:44.470 the breakdown of the chemistry in a much more 01:40:44.470 --> 01:40:46.590 efficient way. So we have to understand it's 01:40:46.590 --> 01:40:48.630 not one size fits all. That's immediately where 01:40:48.630 --> 01:40:52.130 we get it wrong. And there are opportunities 01:40:52.130 --> 01:40:55.689 we all have now with simple, accessible science 01:40:55.689 --> 01:40:59.890 for their general practitioner doctors of sampling. 01:41:00.210 --> 01:41:02.989 And again, it's just hopefully it's not TMI when 01:41:02.989 --> 01:41:04.590 they have commercials in the United States of 01:41:04.590 --> 01:41:08.210 like here, you know. you know, do your business 01:41:08.210 --> 01:41:11.319 in a box and ship it in, right? So that test 01:41:11.319 --> 01:41:13.500 is actually one of the things we can understand. 01:41:13.579 --> 01:41:16.840 How do we process our foods? How is our nutrition 01:41:16.840 --> 01:41:20.239 individualized? And I would give an example to 01:41:20.239 --> 01:41:22.140 everyone. You can go to your GP and there's another 01:41:22.140 --> 01:41:24.640 company. I get nothing for this, but I know the 01:41:24.640 --> 01:41:27.380 accuracy of their test. Thorne Research does 01:41:27.380 --> 01:41:30.920 some testing with fecal matter and can look at 01:41:30.920 --> 01:41:32.979 your profile and look at that and look at it 01:41:32.979 --> 01:41:34.819 over time because you need some good sampling. 01:41:35.199 --> 01:41:37.899 But then we can draw on it. they're one of the 01:41:37.899 --> 01:41:40.199 sponsors of the show and i did a poo sample just 01:41:40.199 --> 01:41:42.020 one though i haven't done sampling over time 01:41:42.020 --> 01:41:44.319 but yeah apparently my poo was great i disagree 01:41:44.319 --> 01:41:46.880 what i saw in the toilet but they seem to be 01:41:46.880 --> 01:41:51.899 impressed by it And again, if you can get people 01:41:51.899 --> 01:41:55.140 past this piece of like, listen, what comes in 01:41:55.140 --> 01:41:57.359 and goes out tells us a lot. And I've done a 01:41:57.359 --> 01:41:59.779 lot of that in collision sports and the military. 01:41:59.920 --> 01:42:03.039 We can then understand how to prescribe nutrition 01:42:03.039 --> 01:42:06.340 at just in time. We learned how to adjust nutrition 01:42:06.340 --> 01:42:09.340 going on mission or going into games. I'm doing 01:42:09.340 --> 01:42:11.479 that here in New Zealand. We can get a better 01:42:11.479 --> 01:42:14.600 understanding of how we address higher stress 01:42:14.600 --> 01:42:16.340 because I'll give you an example. And you said 01:42:16.340 --> 01:42:19.619 it really wonderfully. that when you have higher 01:42:19.619 --> 01:42:22.819 stress, what does it do to the gut? Well, you 01:42:22.819 --> 01:42:25.279 can imagine it flushes things out that we essentially 01:42:25.279 --> 01:42:29.720 need. Cortisol is a very important neurotransmitter. 01:42:29.760 --> 01:42:31.800 It's not a negative thing, just like inflammation. 01:42:32.380 --> 01:42:35.579 It's just a signal. And when that signal predominates 01:42:35.579 --> 01:42:38.420 too high, then it can flush other really essential 01:42:38.420 --> 01:42:40.600 neurotransmitters out, like serotonin, which 01:42:40.600 --> 01:42:42.939 has to do with mood, memory, and movement. Pretty 01:42:42.939 --> 01:42:45.600 important stuff. And if any of us become low 01:42:45.600 --> 01:42:47.720 normal serotonin, all of those are going to be 01:42:47.720 --> 01:42:51.300 off a bit. Well, if we have the science to really 01:42:51.300 --> 01:42:54.119 kind of dial that in and give people the empowerment 01:42:54.119 --> 01:42:57.319 of knowing, okay, what are serotonergic or serotonin 01:42:57.319 --> 01:43:00.279 -rich foods, like kiwi fruit? What are ways I 01:43:00.279 --> 01:43:02.750 can protect my gut so it doesn't get leaky? like 01:43:02.750 --> 01:43:05.789 with high amounts of fiber, right? Or moderate 01:43:05.789 --> 01:43:07.489 amounts of fiber, depending on the person, right? 01:43:08.109 --> 01:43:11.010 We can really give people opportunities to be 01:43:11.010 --> 01:43:13.229 on the front foot, that if I know if I'm going 01:43:13.229 --> 01:43:16.170 through, I'm going to be under high stress, how 01:43:16.170 --> 01:43:19.750 do I dose? Basically, food is medicine. How do 01:43:19.750 --> 01:43:22.350 I dose my medicine to produce a different response 01:43:22.350 --> 01:43:25.350 under high stress? We also forget this piece 01:43:25.350 --> 01:43:28.050 about nutrition. So let's say you've come off 01:43:28.050 --> 01:43:33.090 a call. You can decide the grade of stress. But 01:43:33.090 --> 01:43:35.430 there's stress. There's stimulation. And actually, 01:43:35.569 --> 01:43:38.189 I don't even like that term because it's a very 01:43:38.189 --> 01:43:40.869 subjective term. It's actually trauma. Is it 01:43:40.869 --> 01:43:43.310 a small T or a big T? We want it to be a small 01:43:43.310 --> 01:43:45.189 T because we can work it through. Big Ts take 01:43:45.189 --> 01:43:48.989 more interventions. But what's immediately on 01:43:48.989 --> 01:43:51.609 the other end of that is digestion differences. 01:43:53.130 --> 01:43:55.270 So if we think about our autonomic nervous system, 01:43:55.329 --> 01:43:57.430 we refer to it as sympathetic, which means go, 01:43:57.529 --> 01:44:00.449 go, go. And parasympathetic, which is rest and 01:44:00.449 --> 01:44:05.789 digest. So if we're still go, go, go, we should 01:44:05.789 --> 01:44:08.210 probably be doing an intervention to get us calm 01:44:08.210 --> 01:44:12.270 before we go eat. So everyone's had this experience 01:44:12.270 --> 01:44:14.930 of their stomach shrinking or that feeling of 01:44:14.930 --> 01:44:18.810 our stomach. That's blood flow. If you were sympathetically 01:44:18.810 --> 01:44:21.050 driven, you've just had a threatening situation 01:44:21.050 --> 01:44:23.470 or you're just go, go, go. Everything went fine, 01:44:23.569 --> 01:44:27.329 but it was go, go, go. Likely to do. diaphragmatic 01:44:27.329 --> 01:44:31.250 breathing do a relaxation session you know listen 01:44:31.250 --> 01:44:33.409 to some calming music and just close your eyes 01:44:33.409 --> 01:44:37.750 then go eat your fueling system will open up 01:44:37.750 --> 01:44:42.210 more and thus you get now digesting the energy 01:44:42.210 --> 01:44:45.109 you need in the neurotransmission and so we forget 01:44:45.109 --> 01:44:49.170 about these pairings did you ever look i think 01:44:49.170 --> 01:44:51.470 we talked about it when we spoke last uh that 01:44:51.470 --> 01:44:55.569 company newcom that i told you about See, they 01:44:55.569 --> 01:44:58.529 have these 20 -minute sessions, and that's something 01:44:58.529 --> 01:45:01.329 that I've said not so much before a meal. I mean, 01:45:01.369 --> 01:45:02.930 what you've just said is new to me, and that 01:45:02.930 --> 01:45:04.829 makes perfect sense because, yeah, if you're 01:45:04.829 --> 01:45:07.250 stressed out, you're not wanting to eat at that 01:45:07.250 --> 01:45:10.229 moment. And then with the acute stress, the burnout, 01:45:10.329 --> 01:45:12.729 that was one of my symptoms was that kind of 01:45:12.729 --> 01:45:16.109 loose stool, as it were. But at the end of a 01:45:16.109 --> 01:45:19.420 shift before you go home. I think if I was still 01:45:19.420 --> 01:45:21.479 on the fire service now, I would do this every 01:45:21.479 --> 01:45:24.539 single time. Go back into the bunk room or sit 01:45:24.539 --> 01:45:26.140 in your car in the parking lot, somewhere where 01:45:26.140 --> 01:45:28.699 you feel safe. Put the headphones on and the 01:45:28.699 --> 01:45:31.039 eye mask and just do a 20 -minute session because 01:45:31.039 --> 01:45:35.100 it down -regulates you. You don't even have a 01:45:35.100 --> 01:45:37.260 choice. Whether you stay awake, whether you're 01:45:37.260 --> 01:45:39.539 skipping through theta, whatever state you're 01:45:39.539 --> 01:45:42.420 in, it's down -regulating you. So the same thing. 01:45:42.579 --> 01:45:44.920 And if you had a big incident, especially if 01:45:44.920 --> 01:45:46.399 you're allowed to go out of service for a little 01:45:46.399 --> 01:45:49.140 bit. do one of those sessions first and then 01:45:49.140 --> 01:45:51.420 and then go and eat so yeah i like that a lot 01:45:51.420 --> 01:45:54.100 and that's the benchmarking like we talk about 01:45:54.100 --> 01:45:55.779 if you're going to do stimulation there's got 01:45:55.779 --> 01:45:59.340 to be rest you know laws of physics apply in 01:45:59.340 --> 01:46:01.539 all of our humanity and neuroscience and psychology 01:46:01.539 --> 01:46:04.000 so if we think about a cosine it goes up and 01:46:04.000 --> 01:46:06.680 it goes down everyone's doing it right now i'm 01:46:06.680 --> 01:46:09.880 doing it you're doing it inhale is actually a 01:46:09.880 --> 01:46:12.239 stress response, blood pressure goes up, vitamin 01:46:12.239 --> 01:46:14.439 and minerals to the brain, neurotransmission. 01:46:14.640 --> 01:46:17.460 As we exhale, that's a state of relaxation. We 01:46:17.460 --> 01:46:21.319 are at our best when we mimic that cosine. And 01:46:21.319 --> 01:46:23.979 we have high variability, a lot of this really 01:46:23.979 --> 01:46:26.680 connected. And you coming off a shift or coming 01:46:26.680 --> 01:46:30.619 off a call, that gets shorter in amplitude and 01:46:30.619 --> 01:46:33.800 closer together. And some states in chronic stress, 01:46:34.000 --> 01:46:37.380 it gets wider apart, our variability. Anything 01:46:37.380 --> 01:46:39.180 that has a heartbeat, you want high variability. 01:46:40.319 --> 01:46:44.199 And you talked about a transition. I would encourage 01:46:44.199 --> 01:46:47.739 anyone coming off a shift, and it also helps 01:46:47.739 --> 01:46:50.260 to shift if you're going home to be a spouse, 01:46:50.479 --> 01:46:55.560 be a father, be a mother, is to create a transition 01:46:55.560 --> 01:46:58.800 where you are in a recovery state before you 01:46:58.800 --> 01:47:02.100 even leave. Yes, it's an excellent way of doing 01:47:02.100 --> 01:47:04.859 it. When we're looking at high -performing athletes 01:47:04.859 --> 01:47:07.560 or elite operators, you're teaching them to be 01:47:07.560 --> 01:47:10.140 a scientist of themselves. And then with every 01:47:10.140 --> 01:47:12.979 stimulation that you have that creates this small 01:47:12.979 --> 01:47:16.100 T that hopefully turns into learning, you have 01:47:16.100 --> 01:47:18.630 to benchmark it. with points of recovery, which 01:47:18.630 --> 01:47:21.329 include hydration, nutrition, and bringing the 01:47:21.329 --> 01:47:23.689 central nervous system down. So I might encourage 01:47:23.689 --> 01:47:26.670 them to do HRV biofeedback or resonant breathing. 01:47:26.869 --> 01:47:29.369 And there's great technology out there for that 01:47:29.369 --> 01:47:33.069 with thought technology, heart math, and heart 01:47:33.069 --> 01:47:36.229 state health. And those can guide you through 01:47:36.229 --> 01:47:38.170 that. You can do it through meditation with Muse, 01:47:38.250 --> 01:47:41.789 but build a practice of if you're going to get 01:47:41.789 --> 01:47:45.689 intense, you also have to get come down. otherwise 01:47:45.689 --> 01:47:47.949 you train your central nervous system to only 01:47:47.949 --> 01:47:52.770 do one thing well and we need variability and 01:47:52.770 --> 01:47:55.050 and i love that you shared that practice that's 01:47:55.050 --> 01:47:57.510 smart brilliant absolutely what should be done 01:47:57.510 --> 01:48:00.350 yeah i mean it is truly brilliant and this i 01:48:00.350 --> 01:48:02.989 think it's the only only technology in the world 01:48:02.989 --> 01:48:06.789 that has a patent for down regulating the nervous 01:48:06.789 --> 01:48:09.470 system like from from the you know parasympathetic 01:48:09.470 --> 01:48:11.430 excuse me too parasympathetic with the brain 01:48:11.430 --> 01:48:14.340 itself One more area, then I want to go to some 01:48:14.340 --> 01:48:15.960 closing questions so I can be mindful of your 01:48:15.960 --> 01:48:19.000 time. You talk about, you know, the social side 01:48:19.000 --> 01:48:22.140 as well in the book. I think the most kind of, 01:48:22.140 --> 01:48:24.159 you know, the low hanging, most important conversation 01:48:24.159 --> 01:48:28.640 with this is social media and its impact on relationships. 01:48:28.739 --> 01:48:30.859 Again, especially some of these younger athletes 01:48:30.859 --> 01:48:33.859 that may have been raised looking at a screen 01:48:33.859 --> 01:48:37.039 rather than looking in someone's eyes. So just 01:48:37.039 --> 01:48:40.500 to kind of overall conversation, talk to me about. 01:48:41.100 --> 01:48:43.039 you know what you're seeing as far as some of 01:48:43.039 --> 01:48:46.340 these technologies and then um you know versus 01:48:46.340 --> 01:48:49.260 what is needed to forge whether it's these elite 01:48:49.260 --> 01:48:54.119 war fighters or these elite athletes it's a lot 01:48:54.119 --> 01:48:56.140 of things to unpack it's a really good question 01:48:56.140 --> 01:48:58.260 i think one of the pieces i would speak to immediately 01:48:58.260 --> 01:49:01.579 because you started there was if anyone really 01:49:01.579 --> 01:49:05.180 wants to understand the closest proximity to 01:49:05.180 --> 01:49:07.460 the latest data of understanding how mental health 01:49:07.460 --> 01:49:12.180 is actually fracturing our health the u .s surgeon 01:49:12.180 --> 01:49:15.239 general in 2023 released a report there's an 01:49:15.239 --> 01:49:17.039 executive summary and then if you really want 01:49:17.039 --> 01:49:19.680 to go for a deep dive please plan something fun 01:49:19.680 --> 01:49:22.800 after it because it is not a fun raid uh because 01:49:22.800 --> 01:49:26.340 and and make sure that thing maybe even has to 01:49:26.340 --> 01:49:29.819 do with social connection uh because the data 01:49:29.819 --> 01:49:31.680 that we have because most of the social media 01:49:31.680 --> 01:49:34.500 companies in the United States no longer allow 01:49:34.500 --> 01:49:36.840 us to have access or social science researchers 01:49:36.840 --> 01:49:39.979 have access to that data to see how it's impacting 01:49:39.979 --> 01:49:43.319 youth as well as adults. And so this was before 01:49:43.319 --> 01:49:46.140 they closed the door. To be honest, we don't 01:49:46.140 --> 01:49:49.560 need all the data to make a conclusion. This 01:49:49.560 --> 01:49:53.500 is an epidemic and it is harmful to our health. 01:49:53.960 --> 01:49:56.600 If we don't digest it in the right amounts and 01:49:56.600 --> 01:49:59.819 create caveats, it's basically like handing someone 01:49:59.819 --> 01:50:02.750 a hammer with no rules how to use it. And so 01:50:02.750 --> 01:50:06.270 one of the primary social psychologists has even 01:50:06.270 --> 01:50:11.109 said, who's cited in the US Surgeon General's 01:50:11.109 --> 01:50:13.810 report, I would rather have my son and daughter 01:50:13.810 --> 01:50:17.829 have a smoking and drinking habit. And so to 01:50:17.829 --> 01:50:22.090 frame it that way, it is divisive to our health. 01:50:22.250 --> 01:50:25.819 One of the reasons is you highlighted. And we 01:50:25.819 --> 01:50:28.619 see this off the back of COVID as well, because 01:50:28.619 --> 01:50:30.640 that put us onto screens. Now, some of that was 01:50:30.640 --> 01:50:32.859 good. I'm very thankful you and I can do this 01:50:32.859 --> 01:50:36.119 today. I'm thankful that I do some hybrid work 01:50:36.119 --> 01:50:39.140 with athletes worldwide when they leave our shores 01:50:39.140 --> 01:50:40.899 here in New Zealand, but we work with them here, 01:50:40.960 --> 01:50:42.640 and then they may have to go on a trip. They 01:50:42.640 --> 01:50:45.720 want to connect in. We have this space. However, 01:50:46.000 --> 01:50:49.140 spending time on screens, we lose social emotional 01:50:49.140 --> 01:50:54.180 learning. And so what do I mean by that? We are 01:50:54.180 --> 01:50:58.039 social beings. We predict. So learning facial 01:50:58.039 --> 01:51:02.520 cues, learning how empathy is displayed in pitch 01:51:02.520 --> 01:51:05.279 and tone and facial reaction and posturing is 01:51:05.279 --> 01:51:08.880 very, very important to selecting those groups 01:51:08.880 --> 01:51:11.439 of people we want to put around us. So if we 01:51:11.439 --> 01:51:16.220 get really poorer digestion or doses of social 01:51:16.220 --> 01:51:18.420 emotional learning, this is how we regulate. 01:51:18.909 --> 01:51:21.510 So we get less regulation as a human being, less 01:51:21.510 --> 01:51:23.770 understanding of ourselves, less understanding 01:51:23.770 --> 01:51:26.430 of the other, less understanding of our communities. 01:51:26.789 --> 01:51:29.909 So it's a critical factor that we can't put the 01:51:29.909 --> 01:51:32.829 toothpaste back in the tube, but we can teach 01:51:32.829 --> 01:51:36.729 people how to use it in ways that can be beneficial. 01:51:36.890 --> 01:51:41.310 And it's normally in shorter doses. And so I'll 01:51:41.310 --> 01:51:44.390 go to a performance environment. We know that 01:51:44.390 --> 01:51:48.759 athletes who access their social media. within 01:51:48.759 --> 01:51:52.560 48 hours, 48 hours, not even right up to the 01:51:52.560 --> 01:51:55.840 event. That gets it worse. But 48 hours before 01:51:55.840 --> 01:51:59.079 tend to have more anxiety about the event than 01:51:59.079 --> 01:52:02.380 someone who doesn't. So we educate our athletes. 01:52:02.600 --> 01:52:04.180 And this is difficult because there's sometimes 01:52:04.180 --> 01:52:07.659 brand managers. They do have to post. They have 01:52:07.659 --> 01:52:10.039 to be present. Otherwise, they don't get their 01:52:10.039 --> 01:52:12.920 funding. So we have to find workarounds that 01:52:12.920 --> 01:52:16.760 someone else handles that. We offset that interaction. 01:52:18.140 --> 01:52:21.520 But we know that you can imagine what the dosing 01:52:21.520 --> 01:52:24.819 of anxiety is. The other thing is that social 01:52:24.819 --> 01:52:27.279 media is working off of frequencies to push certain 01:52:27.279 --> 01:52:30.340 brainwaves and personal emotional responses. 01:52:30.640 --> 01:52:33.699 And those things don't help them. Just to give 01:52:33.699 --> 01:52:37.079 an example, you know, Steve Jobs understood when 01:52:37.079 --> 01:52:38.840 he was designing a smartphone what he was going 01:52:38.840 --> 01:52:42.539 for. He loved the modeling of cigarettes and 01:52:42.539 --> 01:52:47.539 caffeine. How do I get the person addicted? Well, 01:52:47.640 --> 01:52:49.579 that's through radio frequency and light frequency. 01:52:49.960 --> 01:52:52.739 Then when you add in the other pieces about likes 01:52:52.739 --> 01:52:55.260 and everything, what we have is an experiment, 01:52:55.420 --> 01:52:58.100 a mass experiment that's been done on the world 01:52:58.100 --> 01:53:00.840 where no one's assigned an informed consent of 01:53:00.840 --> 01:53:03.600 being involved with being manipulated and distorted 01:53:03.600 --> 01:53:07.600 in their own experience. I didn't realize Steve 01:53:07.600 --> 01:53:11.359 Jobs was that aware of all the downstream effects. 01:53:12.340 --> 01:53:15.579 Yes. um i happen to know one of the members of 01:53:15.579 --> 01:53:18.739 his four team because it was if it was a 40 people 01:53:18.739 --> 01:53:20.479 that designed a smartphone we wouldn't see it 01:53:20.479 --> 01:53:23.460 today and one of them was a neuroscientist and 01:53:23.460 --> 01:53:25.760 they were asked to look at how to create light 01:53:25.760 --> 01:53:28.520 dynamics and interaction to spend more eyes and 01:53:28.520 --> 01:53:31.060 thumbs on now others in the social media space 01:53:31.060 --> 01:53:34.960 have amplified that and turbocharged that however 01:53:34.960 --> 01:53:38.420 we started from a position and there was a reason 01:53:38.420 --> 01:53:42.579 why the iphone never came with a manual Because 01:53:42.579 --> 01:53:46.439 you'd have to put disclaimers. Crazy. You'd have 01:53:46.439 --> 01:53:50.119 to be transparent. And you watch that film, The 01:53:50.119 --> 01:53:52.939 Social Dilemma, and those programmers that were 01:53:52.939 --> 01:53:55.239 behind it that you could see were kind of wracked 01:53:55.239 --> 01:53:56.899 with guilt now. And they said, look, I'll be 01:53:56.899 --> 01:53:58.520 completely honest. I don't let my children use 01:53:58.520 --> 01:54:03.500 this app. And I designed it. And then a lot of 01:54:03.500 --> 01:54:06.520 the people I've talked to on the mental health 01:54:06.520 --> 01:54:08.939 struggles of our children, every single time 01:54:08.939 --> 01:54:11.899 I ask them, and it's an open... open question 01:54:11.899 --> 01:54:14.640 it's always well the first thing is social media 01:54:14.640 --> 01:54:18.420 so compared to you know childhood trauma the 01:54:18.420 --> 01:54:19.800 other things that we know are going to be present 01:54:19.800 --> 01:54:22.079 too that is the thing that they're talking about 01:54:22.079 --> 01:54:25.899 primarily is amplifying all these struggles well 01:54:25.899 --> 01:54:29.079 if you think about it we go back to and and we're 01:54:29.079 --> 01:54:32.600 a similar generation you know we have the same 01:54:32.600 --> 01:54:36.359 worries about tv and there is an impact and there 01:54:36.359 --> 01:54:40.100 can be a positive impact But TV wasn't designed 01:54:40.100 --> 01:54:44.300 particularly. The medium is the message. But 01:54:44.300 --> 01:54:47.619 it wasn't designed to dramatically manipulate 01:54:47.619 --> 01:54:52.140 brainwave through certain frequencies and dynamics 01:54:52.140 --> 01:54:58.199 of light. This strategically was. And another 01:54:58.199 --> 01:55:01.439 way to think about TV, and we can walk it over 01:55:01.439 --> 01:55:04.800 to social media, it's called programming. So 01:55:04.800 --> 01:55:08.239 what are we programming? I've never had these 01:55:08.239 --> 01:55:11.340 thoughtful kind of distillations like that. So 01:55:11.340 --> 01:55:14.279 what is social media's ultimate mission of what 01:55:14.279 --> 01:55:17.479 they're programming? And if you look at that, 01:55:17.600 --> 01:55:19.680 another way to kind of unpackage that, and I 01:55:19.680 --> 01:55:22.619 remind people in New Zealand of this. So almost 01:55:22.619 --> 01:55:24.939 all the social media companies are based in the 01:55:24.939 --> 01:55:27.579 US. TikTok isn't, but soon we'll have some branch 01:55:27.579 --> 01:55:34.180 there that is. The US doesn't get the worst version 01:55:34.180 --> 01:55:38.819 of social media. Everybody else does. And so 01:55:38.819 --> 01:55:41.260 when you think about what you're digesting there, 01:55:41.439 --> 01:55:44.279 and it has these harmful effects, and then you 01:55:44.279 --> 01:55:46.199 think about elsewhere in the world gets worse 01:55:46.199 --> 01:55:52.239 programming, where do we end up? This is so much 01:55:52.239 --> 01:55:55.119 of an issue, and this is something that I'll 01:55:55.119 --> 01:55:57.420 say I'm happy that the International Law Committee, 01:55:57.739 --> 01:56:00.979 the IOC, has done, but they tend to be slow to 01:56:00.979 --> 01:56:04.550 regulate or slow to protect. protect people um 01:56:04.550 --> 01:56:07.250 that they've seen the last two olympic cycle 01:56:07.250 --> 01:56:10.909 the online abuse toward female athletes is significant 01:56:10.909 --> 01:56:14.409 so much so they've put money towards researching 01:56:14.409 --> 01:56:17.710 it and then interventions that'll tell you in 01:56:17.710 --> 01:56:21.229 just two cycles they decided and if you look 01:56:21.229 --> 01:56:23.430 at the last time they regulated something that 01:56:23.430 --> 01:56:25.689 had to do towards the harm of their athletes 01:56:25.689 --> 01:56:29.640 you're going to look at a very very a you know 01:56:29.640 --> 01:56:32.279 long stretch of time so they move very quickly 01:56:32.279 --> 01:56:35.239 they tend to spend more time trying to evaluate 01:56:35.239 --> 01:56:37.899 it which isn't necessarily a bad thing but they 01:56:37.899 --> 01:56:41.020 could see clearly how dangerous this was for 01:56:41.020 --> 01:56:44.739 the next generation of female athletes i saw 01:56:44.739 --> 01:56:46.640 a story a while ago i think i've got this right 01:56:46.640 --> 01:56:50.500 that in australia they'd banned social media 01:56:50.500 --> 01:56:53.460 till the age of 16 is this something that you're 01:56:53.460 --> 01:56:56.680 mirroring in new zealand as well They're certainly 01:56:56.680 --> 01:56:58.319 considering. And when you're close neighbors 01:56:58.319 --> 01:57:05.239 and you both share a lot of values from a societal 01:57:05.239 --> 01:57:07.800 level to community level to family level and 01:57:07.800 --> 01:57:11.699 quite similar in a lot of ways, that we take 01:57:11.699 --> 01:57:13.819 nods from each other. It goes back and forth. 01:57:14.100 --> 01:57:17.380 So certainly I would say it's being considered 01:57:17.380 --> 01:57:20.699 at the parliamentary level. We're educating it 01:57:20.699 --> 01:57:24.220 amongst our elite athletes. Because if we don't, 01:57:25.529 --> 01:57:29.270 We're going to continue to have one of these 01:57:29.270 --> 01:57:32.069 great complexities that influence things in the 01:57:32.069 --> 01:57:34.630 wrong direction. But also they become peer -to 01:57:34.630 --> 01:57:37.090 -peer learning. If our elite athletes can teach 01:57:37.090 --> 01:57:40.390 the next pathway down and the next pathway down, 01:57:40.510 --> 01:57:43.270 we start to create this subtly different way 01:57:43.270 --> 01:57:45.489 of interacting. Again, I don't think we'll put 01:57:45.489 --> 01:57:46.930 the toothpaste back in the tube. That's going 01:57:46.930 --> 01:57:49.069 to take huge parliamentary and governmental levels 01:57:49.069 --> 01:57:52.109 of regulation. But we can teach people to use 01:57:52.109 --> 01:57:56.939 it in ways that aren't harmful. Absolutely. All 01:57:56.939 --> 01:57:58.539 right. Well, I want to go to some closing questions, 01:57:58.619 --> 01:58:01.340 but before we do your book, the brain always 01:58:01.340 --> 01:58:04.720 wins to what made you guys write it initially. 01:58:04.760 --> 01:58:07.000 And then, you know, what can people expect now 01:58:07.000 --> 01:58:10.340 with this revised edition? Sure. Thank you for 01:58:10.340 --> 01:58:12.359 that question. It's a great question. It's partly 01:58:12.359 --> 01:58:14.079 about some of the things we've talked about today. 01:58:14.659 --> 01:58:18.880 Chris and I feel Chris Parker coauthor. And I 01:58:18.880 --> 01:58:22.510 feel very, very passionately about this. And 01:58:22.510 --> 01:58:24.930 I said it earlier today in this conversation, 01:58:25.229 --> 01:58:27.069 because it's just, I think, a part of both of 01:58:27.069 --> 01:58:30.909 our ethos. Science is a gift. And it's far too 01:58:30.909 --> 01:58:34.029 often locked up in peer -reviewed journals and 01:58:34.029 --> 01:58:36.810 written in technical jargon that doesn't allow 01:58:36.810 --> 01:58:40.590 people to excessively have that gift and receive 01:58:40.590 --> 01:58:44.869 that gift. And I think it's a mandate, I feel 01:58:44.869 --> 01:58:51.659 it, for every scientist. Give back in that way. 01:58:52.319 --> 01:58:55.340 Distill the research down at every level. Don't 01:58:55.340 --> 01:58:57.319 get me wrong. I do think as scientists, we have 01:58:57.319 --> 01:59:01.699 to speak at the 50 ,000 -foot level. And jargon 01:59:01.699 --> 01:59:04.279 is a part of every profession. You could speak 01:59:04.279 --> 01:59:06.479 some of your jargon from firefighting, and I 01:59:06.479 --> 01:59:08.840 would sit here and go, that is like Swahili. 01:59:09.140 --> 01:59:11.600 Please translate. And that's okay. It's about 01:59:11.600 --> 01:59:15.300 quick communication, distilling down big concepts 01:59:15.300 --> 01:59:19.739 into small, certain bite -sized things. But we 01:59:19.739 --> 01:59:22.479 should be able to talk about it in an accessible 01:59:22.479 --> 01:59:26.079 500 -foot level because that's who we serve. 01:59:26.800 --> 01:59:30.680 We do this for humanity. And so we wrote the 01:59:30.680 --> 01:59:33.500 book because as we sat down and talked about 01:59:33.500 --> 01:59:36.779 it, he was asking me questions conversationally 01:59:36.779 --> 01:59:39.619 just like you and I have exchanged. And I think 01:59:39.619 --> 01:59:45.460 most good things come from conversation. It came 01:59:45.460 --> 01:59:47.819 clear to him because he anchors on communication. 01:59:48.119 --> 01:59:50.659 He worked as a professor at Nottingham Trent 01:59:50.659 --> 01:59:52.640 University. He was brought into sports science 01:59:52.640 --> 01:59:55.119 because they were finding their graduates couldn't 01:59:55.119 --> 01:59:57.260 teach people what they did. And he's like, well, 01:59:57.279 --> 01:59:59.279 that's about a campaign of narrative. You need 01:59:59.279 --> 02:00:01.079 to be able to talk at every level about what 02:00:01.079 --> 02:00:04.340 you did, not just at the highest level. And so 02:00:04.340 --> 02:00:07.970 he instituted this. communications program so 02:00:07.970 --> 02:00:10.189 everyone could talk about what they did at every 02:00:10.189 --> 02:00:12.430 level. And so it's something near and dear to 02:00:12.430 --> 02:00:15.770 him, but it's near and dear to me. So I had no 02:00:15.770 --> 02:00:18.050 thoughts of ever writing a book. Written chapters, 02:00:18.289 --> 02:00:20.369 technical chapters, and peer review articles. 02:00:20.949 --> 02:00:24.789 I had no imagination of it. So it's clearly anchored 02:00:24.789 --> 02:00:27.970 on. He's written numerous amounts of book. I 02:00:27.970 --> 02:00:30.550 think we're well over 20 now in many different 02:00:30.550 --> 02:00:34.449 genres, but really kind of a great partnership 02:00:34.449 --> 02:00:37.039 of going, okay, how do we tell a story? that 02:00:37.039 --> 02:00:39.340 can be engaging to teach people about science. 02:00:39.460 --> 02:00:41.640 So that was really the thrust of it. And I'm 02:00:41.640 --> 02:00:44.079 still very passionate about it. To this day, 02:00:44.100 --> 02:00:47.399 I've only heard one scientist ever say that that 02:00:47.399 --> 02:00:49.359 should be part of our mission. And it was someone 02:00:49.359 --> 02:00:53.829 from NOAA in the US. of really understanding 02:00:53.829 --> 02:00:56.909 kind of we need to talk about weather because 02:00:56.909 --> 02:00:59.869 of how it impacts and connects into your world, 02:00:59.989 --> 02:01:04.390 tragedies and crises and unfortunate situations 02:01:04.390 --> 02:01:06.689 that weather can bring us more and more, fire, 02:01:06.869 --> 02:01:09.850 earthquakes, these sort of things. And she said, 02:01:09.930 --> 02:01:11.630 we can't just speak about it in technical terms. 02:01:11.729 --> 02:01:13.609 We need to meet people where they're at and present 02:01:13.609 --> 02:01:17.029 the gift so they can inform themselves and empower 02:01:17.029 --> 02:01:19.649 themselves. So that was the first thing. The 02:01:19.649 --> 02:01:21.989 other thing is I'm very passionate about the 02:01:21.989 --> 02:01:26.520 brain. It's the most complex thing known in the 02:01:26.520 --> 02:01:29.500 universe. But we don't get much time to understand 02:01:29.500 --> 02:01:32.079 how it works and why it works as it does. And 02:01:32.079 --> 02:01:34.760 we don't get much understanding of how we have 02:01:34.760 --> 02:01:38.119 the power. We don't have control over anything. 02:01:39.119 --> 02:01:44.180 That's an illusion. But what we do have is management 02:01:44.180 --> 02:01:48.079 and influence over everything. And that's pretty 02:01:48.079 --> 02:01:50.239 damn powerful when you consider we have control 02:01:50.239 --> 02:01:53.319 over nothing. And yet a human species, we've 02:01:53.319 --> 02:01:56.159 made it to this point. And so for me, teaching 02:01:56.159 --> 02:01:58.340 people how they can empower themselves and understand 02:01:58.340 --> 02:02:01.720 themselves greatly is something that I think 02:02:01.720 --> 02:02:03.560 Chris and I are both passionate about. I think 02:02:03.560 --> 02:02:07.000 for the new book, what we've added in is we've 02:02:07.000 --> 02:02:10.800 added in much more of the conversation. to see 02:02:10.800 --> 02:02:13.180 the information in even a more accessible way. 02:02:13.380 --> 02:02:15.819 What we've done is also expanded all the chapters 02:02:15.819 --> 02:02:18.520 to, okay, now how do I take this learning in 02:02:18.520 --> 02:02:21.039 a human varied way? And what sort of choices 02:02:21.039 --> 02:02:23.380 do I have to apply this stuff? So we've added 02:02:23.380 --> 02:02:27.619 much more contextualized activities and opportunities 02:02:27.619 --> 02:02:31.100 to engage. And then I would say the third thing 02:02:31.100 --> 02:02:33.479 we've talked a little bit about, we wanted to 02:02:33.479 --> 02:02:36.800 put technology in the first book, but we felt 02:02:36.800 --> 02:02:40.409 like it'd be a bridge too far. Also, We've moved 02:02:40.409 --> 02:02:42.430 that much farther with the neurotechnologies 02:02:42.430 --> 02:02:44.470 being much more clinical grade and much more 02:02:44.470 --> 02:02:47.050 accurate and much more transparent in what they 02:02:47.050 --> 02:02:49.829 can do and what they can't do. And so adding 02:02:49.829 --> 02:02:52.189 that piece was clearly important to us because 02:02:52.189 --> 02:02:55.550 there are tools out there that can help all of 02:02:55.550 --> 02:02:58.250 us. And many of them are quite inexpensive when 02:02:58.250 --> 02:03:00.250 you think pennies on the dollar or a pound on 02:03:00.250 --> 02:03:04.609 the pence of how it could help us. And so that's 02:03:04.609 --> 02:03:07.470 an addition. I think the other piece I'm really 02:03:07.470 --> 02:03:10.250 big on, don't live in the book. It's not about 02:03:10.250 --> 02:03:12.609 living in the book. It's adding even more to 02:03:12.609 --> 02:03:15.029 other things you can read at multiple levels, 02:03:15.170 --> 02:03:16.810 other things you can listen to, other things 02:03:16.810 --> 02:03:19.050 you can watch that we've vetted that we're like, 02:03:19.109 --> 02:03:22.029 this is really good science and it's approachable. 02:03:22.409 --> 02:03:25.229 And so we wanted it to be a journey. I think 02:03:25.229 --> 02:03:27.930 if you're trying to be living in the book, I 02:03:27.930 --> 02:03:31.409 think it comes to a place where it feels far 02:03:31.409 --> 02:03:34.770 too guru -like. And I don't believe in gurus. 02:03:37.710 --> 02:03:40.189 I think, I mean, just as a reader, it was a phenomenal 02:03:40.189 --> 02:03:44.409 book. Again, when people bring it down to kind 02:03:44.409 --> 02:03:47.630 of layman's terms, it allows the average person 02:03:47.630 --> 02:03:50.229 to then absorb all these things and then critically 02:03:50.229 --> 02:03:51.930 think. And this is what's happened with me with 02:03:51.930 --> 02:03:55.210 the 1100 plus conversations and, you know, numerous 02:03:55.210 --> 02:03:57.670 books that I've read from the guests is it all 02:03:57.670 --> 02:03:59.869 goes into this little, you know, meat grinder 02:03:59.869 --> 02:04:03.010 in my head. And then when needed, it will spit 02:04:03.010 --> 02:04:04.930 out like, oh, actually, this is the thing. Remember 02:04:04.930 --> 02:04:07.859 this conversation? Whereas if it all been, you 02:04:07.859 --> 02:04:10.359 know, highbrow literature, I just would not be 02:04:10.359 --> 02:04:12.260 able to read it. I wouldn't be absorbing it. 02:04:12.359 --> 02:04:14.460 So I think there's, as you said, you know, you 02:04:14.460 --> 02:04:17.000 read multiple things about this as a firefighter, 02:04:17.000 --> 02:04:18.720 you start learning about, you know, neuroscience 02:04:18.720 --> 02:04:21.279 and sleep deprivation and, you know, strength 02:04:21.279 --> 02:04:23.539 and conditioning and injuries and physical therapy, 02:04:23.619 --> 02:04:25.319 and you put it together and then you look at 02:04:25.319 --> 02:04:27.680 your ecosystem and go, wait a second, this is 02:04:27.680 --> 02:04:29.619 not lining up. There's some things that we should 02:04:29.619 --> 02:04:32.079 be doing differently. So this is why I love books 02:04:32.079 --> 02:04:35.930 like yours is the rest of us. that aren't very 02:04:35.930 --> 02:04:40.189 steeped in academia are able to absorb the principles, 02:04:40.470 --> 02:04:43.289 the takeaways, and then curate the way that we 02:04:43.289 --> 02:04:46.569 think as well. And you don't have to be steeped 02:04:46.569 --> 02:04:48.689 in academia. That's the thing. Science is a gift. 02:04:48.750 --> 02:04:51.409 It should be accessible to every one of us. And 02:04:51.409 --> 02:04:56.310 it really distresses me. when we don't make it 02:04:56.310 --> 02:04:59.050 accessible. And then we stand back and we go, 02:04:59.109 --> 02:05:01.550 well, they should just know. Well, you can't 02:05:01.550 --> 02:05:03.989 tell people to do their best unless you show 02:05:03.989 --> 02:05:06.729 them how, and you have to meet people where they're 02:05:06.729 --> 02:05:11.350 at. And in some ways, it makes me a better educator 02:05:11.350 --> 02:05:14.569 because I'm a scientist practitioner, which means 02:05:14.569 --> 02:05:17.729 I meet with people. I sit with them. I work with 02:05:17.729 --> 02:05:20.729 them. And working with them, you understand that 02:05:20.729 --> 02:05:24.369 we are all amazingly... built with resiliencies 02:05:24.369 --> 02:05:27.729 but it's how do we cross that bridge and connect 02:05:27.729 --> 02:05:31.050 so if i'm sitting there going well why can't 02:05:31.050 --> 02:05:33.229 you just read the academic literature that's 02:05:33.229 --> 02:05:36.590 not appropriate if i sat with you what i'm always 02:05:36.590 --> 02:05:40.090 amazed about is expertise is everywhere yes i've 02:05:40.090 --> 02:05:43.350 been i'm not a firefighter my brother was a paramedic 02:05:43.350 --> 02:05:45.270 and i trained as a paramedic but we never fought 02:05:45.270 --> 02:05:49.840 fires i could spend time with you and you would 02:05:49.840 --> 02:05:51.460 bring great joy because it would bring me back 02:05:51.460 --> 02:05:53.239 to those times being in the firehouse and teach 02:05:53.239 --> 02:05:56.460 me where it's evolved we have to be more curious 02:05:56.460 --> 02:05:59.180 about there's expertise everywhere but we just 02:05:59.180 --> 02:06:02.119 got to connect and it shouldn't be this elitist 02:06:02.119 --> 02:06:05.060 thing it's just information it's just knowledge 02:06:05.060 --> 02:06:07.619 it's it's what chris parker would say and was 02:06:07.619 --> 02:06:09.539 in the book and we debated about putting in the 02:06:09.539 --> 02:06:11.039 first book and i was like that's got to go in 02:06:11.039 --> 02:06:14.939 it's wisdom of the village why do we carry these 02:06:14.939 --> 02:06:18.270 traditions through Because they've met the test 02:06:18.270 --> 02:06:23.210 of time, but also now the test of science. And 02:06:23.210 --> 02:06:25.310 there's something brilliant about that in every 02:06:25.310 --> 02:06:29.510 environment. So it's just about connection. It's 02:06:29.510 --> 02:06:31.670 interesting, the discussion we've had today, 02:06:31.750 --> 02:06:33.609 because I was just thinking through some other 02:06:33.609 --> 02:06:36.869 things like sleep deprivation and what we don't 02:06:36.869 --> 02:06:39.250 learn about that. But it's just, think about 02:06:39.250 --> 02:06:41.829 families that have kids. If you're educated a 02:06:41.829 --> 02:06:43.390 little bit better when you have a newborn, how 02:06:43.390 --> 02:06:46.430 to protect that. Like what happens in the endocrine 02:06:46.430 --> 02:06:49.970 level? What happens at the gut level? What happens 02:06:49.970 --> 02:06:53.390 at the cognitive level? That your brain starts 02:06:53.390 --> 02:06:56.710 to shrink after three weeks of sleep deprivation, 02:06:56.750 --> 02:06:58.289 but you can get it back. So how do you get it 02:06:58.289 --> 02:07:01.510 back? And so all this little stuff, we can make 02:07:01.510 --> 02:07:04.850 big differences. It's interesting as well, because 02:07:04.850 --> 02:07:09.289 I've seen... I need to see studies or show me 02:07:09.289 --> 02:07:12.390 the data used as a deliberate roadblock as well. 02:07:12.470 --> 02:07:14.710 And I think that when you're immersed in the 02:07:14.710 --> 02:07:17.189 dissemination of information like within your 02:07:17.189 --> 02:07:20.489 book, the average person then can go either A, 02:07:20.710 --> 02:07:23.149 oh, you're absolutely right. We do need to study 02:07:23.149 --> 02:07:26.289 this more before we move forward. Or B, in the 02:07:26.289 --> 02:07:30.430 example I've given earlier, a 56 -hour workweek 02:07:30.430 --> 02:07:33.060 is less healthy than a 42 -hour workweek. Do 02:07:33.060 --> 02:07:36.140 we really need studies? Or are you just stalling 02:07:36.140 --> 02:07:38.020 and stalling and stalling? So I think this is 02:07:38.020 --> 02:07:41.199 what's nice is you can see, okay, well, or, you 02:07:41.199 --> 02:07:42.859 know, in many cases, well, look, there's all 02:07:42.859 --> 02:07:45.539 this sleep medicine information on the shipping 02:07:45.539 --> 02:07:47.920 industry and the Navy and Navy SEALs and the 02:07:47.920 --> 02:07:50.939 Army and aviation and trucking and et cetera, 02:07:51.000 --> 02:07:53.140 et cetera. There is the information out there. 02:07:53.520 --> 02:07:55.079 And then, you know, well, give me some examples 02:07:55.079 --> 02:07:57.159 of when things come wrong. Okay, well, then in 02:07:57.159 --> 02:07:59.909 this book. There's eight pages full of disasters 02:07:59.909 --> 02:08:01.449 that cost millions and millions and millions 02:08:01.449 --> 02:08:04.970 of dollars. So I think this is it. Then you can 02:08:04.970 --> 02:08:08.069 really kind of stand your ground when you do 02:08:08.069 --> 02:08:10.529 not need any more data. There's enough out there. 02:08:10.590 --> 02:08:14.090 Or in some cases, okay, yeah, we need to study 02:08:14.090 --> 02:08:16.949 more. But for example, do we need more studies 02:08:16.949 --> 02:08:18.949 on the fact that social media is detrimental 02:08:18.949 --> 02:08:21.720 to children? I think we're there. I think we've 02:08:21.720 --> 02:08:24.039 got it now. Yeah, we're there. And I would say 02:08:24.039 --> 02:08:26.539 one of the number of the wonderful questions 02:08:26.539 --> 02:08:29.439 you've asked relates to this piece is it's always 02:08:29.439 --> 02:08:32.220 a yes and. The data helps because you're standing. 02:08:32.239 --> 02:08:34.359 You're not standing on sand. As you said, you're 02:08:34.359 --> 02:08:36.619 standing on solid ground. But the other piece 02:08:36.619 --> 02:08:38.760 that's a yes and, it has to do with building 02:08:38.760 --> 02:08:42.119 connections. People don't care what you know 02:08:42.119 --> 02:08:44.460 until they know you care or you understand what 02:08:44.460 --> 02:08:48.479 they care about. And so if we don't make connections, 02:08:48.640 --> 02:08:52.020 information does not necessarily connect as well. 02:08:52.079 --> 02:08:53.479 That's why it's a narrative. That's why it's 02:08:53.479 --> 02:08:56.079 a campaign. That's why it's a consistency of 02:08:56.079 --> 02:09:00.060 messaging and connection. And to go to a bit 02:09:00.060 --> 02:09:03.180 of a side here, we know this. Most of our marketing 02:09:03.180 --> 02:09:06.199 is based upon companies that understand the neuroscience 02:09:06.199 --> 02:09:09.239 of influence. They've been using it against us 02:09:09.239 --> 02:09:11.420 forever. They know how many commercials to show 02:09:11.420 --> 02:09:13.000 someone before they get off the couch and order 02:09:13.000 --> 02:09:16.789 a pizza. They know how many exposures. And so 02:09:16.789 --> 02:09:20.109 if we start to use that intention for good, we 02:09:20.109 --> 02:09:22.329 can start to create some influence, not perfectly, 02:09:22.510 --> 02:09:25.670 not a hit rate of 100%, but can our hit rate 02:09:25.670 --> 02:09:29.010 go up? But you need the facts before you can 02:09:29.010 --> 02:09:31.689 tell a good story and have a good campaign. And 02:09:31.689 --> 02:09:33.750 so I think it's always a yes and, and your questions 02:09:33.750 --> 02:09:36.510 reflected that today. We have to connect as human 02:09:36.510 --> 02:09:38.529 beings, otherwise we're not going to make dramatic 02:09:38.529 --> 02:09:41.609 change. Absolutely. I think this is the beautiful 02:09:41.609 --> 02:09:43.590 thing about podcasts and all these conversations 02:09:43.590 --> 02:09:46.750 is it's, you know, you hear this over and over 02:09:46.750 --> 02:09:48.510 again from these people from all these different 02:09:48.510 --> 02:09:51.130 backgrounds that are storytelling and, you know, 02:09:51.130 --> 02:09:54.270 using that narrative along with the science, 02:09:54.329 --> 02:09:57.010 eventually there is that critical mass and the 02:09:57.010 --> 02:10:00.029 individual goes, you know what? This is actually 02:10:00.029 --> 02:10:01.869 starting to make sense to me now. I think I'm 02:10:01.869 --> 02:10:03.770 going to look deeper or I'm going to take this 02:10:03.770 --> 02:10:05.869 to my department or whatever it is. So, yeah, 02:10:05.949 --> 02:10:08.649 and I think my whole thing now is this. punk 02:10:08.649 --> 02:10:11.529 rock revolution of kindness compassion and community 02:10:11.529 --> 02:10:14.170 i think that's the most you know rebellious thing 02:10:14.170 --> 02:10:16.289 you can do these days is to start pulling people 02:10:16.289 --> 02:10:18.750 back together again and that messaging has taken 02:10:18.750 --> 02:10:21.909 a long time too because we look at the the divisive 02:10:21.909 --> 02:10:24.829 you know deliberate use of neuroscience to separate 02:10:24.829 --> 02:10:28.029 this nation for the last you know arguably five 02:10:28.029 --> 02:10:32.470 if not a lot longer years yes yes and again it 02:10:32.470 --> 02:10:35.069 is using science to understand that and but they're 02:10:35.069 --> 02:10:38.909 also science can uh we can Call that back. If 02:10:38.909 --> 02:10:41.250 we understand how the mechanisms work, we certainly 02:10:41.250 --> 02:10:43.329 can use our intentions for good. And that's the 02:10:43.329 --> 02:10:46.050 thing. Science should be used with good intention. 02:10:46.350 --> 02:10:49.630 And certainly there's a history of that falling 02:10:49.630 --> 02:10:51.489 down. And we need to acknowledge that. It's almost 02:10:51.489 --> 02:10:53.329 full circle to our conversation in the beginning. 02:10:53.489 --> 02:10:56.569 If we don't acknowledge our mishaps and we don't 02:10:56.569 --> 02:10:59.250 acknowledge that we've changed and we've needed 02:10:59.250 --> 02:11:02.489 to because of X or Y, then why should people 02:11:02.489 --> 02:11:04.130 trust? And that also has to do with scientific 02:11:04.130 --> 02:11:08.079 literacy. I don't blame on people. I often will 02:11:08.079 --> 02:11:10.359 blame my own science, that psychology has not 02:11:10.359 --> 02:11:12.300 done a good job teaching people what we do and 02:11:12.300 --> 02:11:15.500 how we do it, that it falls on us. Yes, you're 02:11:15.500 --> 02:11:17.180 not going to get everyone to listen, but that 02:11:17.180 --> 02:11:19.869 shouldn't be the expectation. The mission should 02:11:19.869 --> 02:11:22.369 be about science issues for good intention, and 02:11:22.369 --> 02:11:25.550 this is why we use it, and that we can use it 02:11:25.550 --> 02:11:27.850 for good intention, and we can bond people together, 02:11:27.970 --> 02:11:30.289 and we can shine our light in different ways. 02:11:30.470 --> 02:11:32.550 I think we can make dramatic change with those 02:11:32.550 --> 02:11:36.869 sort of things. My hope is that every day I get 02:11:36.869 --> 02:11:41.760 up and that's my mission. It's people. And anytime 02:11:41.760 --> 02:11:43.979 I move off of that, that people matter first 02:11:43.979 --> 02:11:46.279 and they're more important than technology and 02:11:46.279 --> 02:11:48.739 hardware, then I got to come back to center. 02:11:49.640 --> 02:11:52.840 And I thank you for the opportunity because I 02:11:52.840 --> 02:11:55.380 think that's, you're right. The podcasts offer 02:11:55.380 --> 02:12:00.380 that other truth grounded fact base. It's like 02:12:00.380 --> 02:12:02.079 you're saying is who do you listen to? And I 02:12:02.079 --> 02:12:04.220 think that's a death of expertise as Tom Nichols 02:12:04.220 --> 02:12:06.939 talks about who are you listening to? What's 02:12:06.939 --> 02:12:08.880 their background? Are they admitting to what 02:12:08.880 --> 02:12:11.779 bias is? Are they educating from a place of strength? 02:12:11.939 --> 02:12:16.119 Or what are they trying to sell you? I'm not 02:12:16.119 --> 02:12:19.579 trying to sell anything. It's just these are 02:12:19.579 --> 02:12:22.199 the facts as we know them. And when I state an 02:12:22.199 --> 02:12:26.600 opinion, I will state it as an opinion. Now, 02:12:26.640 --> 02:12:30.380 it's usually formed by facts, but there's a difference. 02:12:31.100 --> 02:12:35.600 There's a big difference. Well, I want to go 02:12:35.600 --> 02:12:37.239 to some closing questions quickly before I let 02:12:37.239 --> 02:12:39.500 you go. We've talked about your book and we'll 02:12:39.500 --> 02:12:41.060 talk about where people can find that in just 02:12:41.060 --> 02:12:44.640 a moment. Are there books that you love to recommend 02:12:44.640 --> 02:12:50.840 written by other people? There are actually probably 02:12:50.840 --> 02:12:53.060 a series that I really appreciate, which starts 02:12:53.060 --> 02:12:56.079 us from the beginning, actually, because I talked 02:12:56.079 --> 02:12:58.960 about how often people feel philosophy is something 02:12:58.960 --> 02:13:01.539 of the past, where actually every science came 02:13:01.539 --> 02:13:03.699 from philosophy. It's a search for the truth. 02:13:04.539 --> 02:13:08.079 And it gave birth to many sciences, medicine, 02:13:08.460 --> 02:13:14.300 psychology, neuroscience, military tactics, business 02:13:14.300 --> 02:13:21.819 operations. And so we think it's lost. But actually, 02:13:22.020 --> 02:13:25.300 epistemology or Stoic philosophy is pretty important 02:13:25.300 --> 02:13:28.800 to us. So I tend to recommend some of the... 02:13:28.800 --> 02:13:32.460 Ryan Holiday put out a book, three books, actually. 02:13:33.359 --> 02:13:37.460 One, which I think is seminal for this time in 02:13:37.460 --> 02:13:41.659 the world, and one is courage is calling. And 02:13:41.659 --> 02:13:45.479 so that piece of really anchoring on integrity. 02:13:45.739 --> 02:13:49.140 What does it mean? What is integrity? How do 02:13:49.140 --> 02:13:54.960 you live it? How is your word your bond? Discipline 02:13:54.960 --> 02:13:58.020 is destiny. Really looking at how we arrange 02:13:58.020 --> 02:14:01.560 our environments. and what the Greeks would call 02:14:01.560 --> 02:14:05.199 a loci of learning, that how we construct our 02:14:05.199 --> 02:14:08.159 environments will cue us to the behaviors and 02:14:08.159 --> 02:14:10.680 the emotions and the thoughts that live more 02:14:10.680 --> 02:14:16.039 in line with virtue and value. And so his series 02:14:16.039 --> 02:14:19.180 of books, which are really nice for people who 02:14:19.180 --> 02:14:23.720 don't love reading, but love the idea of reading, 02:14:23.880 --> 02:14:26.880 but also I think the chapters are very impactful 02:14:26.880 --> 02:14:30.560 because they're a story. of these modern day 02:14:30.560 --> 02:14:33.640 stories benched up to the philosophy and then 02:14:33.640 --> 02:14:36.020 the principles. Each chapter is only about 10 02:14:36.020 --> 02:14:39.720 pages or less. They're designed as a meditation, 02:14:39.920 --> 02:14:42.560 really just kind of just to prompt thoughtful 02:14:42.560 --> 02:14:47.439 consideration. very much based upon Marcus Aurelius' 02:14:47.600 --> 02:14:50.300 book of meditations. And so I think he's done 02:14:50.300 --> 02:14:53.119 a very, very wonderful job with a series of three. 02:14:53.180 --> 02:14:55.119 Those are the two books I think about quickly 02:14:55.119 --> 02:15:00.079 because they really anchor on how things we talk 02:15:00.079 --> 02:15:02.899 about, social media is trying to disconnect us, 02:15:03.000 --> 02:15:05.840 but also confuse us about our routines of life, 02:15:05.899 --> 02:15:09.239 about what's virtuous. But also this idea we're 02:15:09.239 --> 02:15:11.939 getting confused about what is integrity. It's 02:15:11.939 --> 02:15:17.359 not popularity. And so I think those are two 02:15:17.359 --> 02:15:20.140 powerful books right now. The other one I would 02:15:20.140 --> 02:15:27.880 think about is a book called Fluke. And it, I'm 02:15:27.880 --> 02:15:31.739 trying to think, Brian Klaas, K -L -A -A -S, 02:15:31.939 --> 02:15:37.279 I believe. And he became viral. And he's a social 02:15:37.279 --> 02:15:41.399 scientist when he was at Davos. And this is about... 02:15:41.609 --> 02:15:46.789 three maybe five years ago and he made a statement 02:15:46.789 --> 02:15:49.890 that was very provocative but it was very anchored 02:15:49.890 --> 02:15:54.109 in truth that he had sat on several panels sat 02:15:54.109 --> 02:15:56.970 in a number of of kind of workshops and that 02:15:56.970 --> 02:16:00.890 conference and he made this statement and it's 02:16:00.890 --> 02:16:03.739 fitting for the world you come from He said, 02:16:03.779 --> 02:16:07.300 I feel like I'm at a conference of firefighters 02:16:07.300 --> 02:16:11.319 and no one's talking about how to get water to 02:16:11.319 --> 02:16:15.460 the fire. We're avoiding the very issues we need 02:16:15.460 --> 02:16:21.579 to be talking about, which is taxing the wealthy 02:16:21.579 --> 02:16:24.800 so we don't create an evaporation of the middle 02:16:24.800 --> 02:16:30.159 class in Gilded Age. But his book Fluke is about 02:16:30.159 --> 02:16:32.879 something that I've studied in a postgraduate 02:16:32.879 --> 02:16:35.500 level, which is complex systems. So when you 02:16:35.500 --> 02:16:38.879 were asking me questions earlier, and often people 02:16:38.879 --> 02:16:41.120 anchor on simple answers to complex problems, 02:16:41.299 --> 02:16:44.600 that's not the case. Everything is complex. As 02:16:44.600 --> 02:16:46.940 a human being, we are a complex system in a complex 02:16:46.940 --> 02:16:50.739 system. So how do we understand how complex systems 02:16:50.739 --> 02:16:56.030 work to understand the most important? Like I 02:16:56.030 --> 02:16:57.309 said earlier, you don't have to know them all. 02:16:57.389 --> 02:17:00.049 You have to know the ones that move the system. 02:17:00.530 --> 02:17:03.870 And often in complex systems like weather, small 02:17:03.870 --> 02:17:07.129 things make great change. So it's understanding 02:17:07.129 --> 02:17:09.510 those small things that make great change. And 02:17:09.510 --> 02:17:11.149 so when I was answering some of your questions, 02:17:11.229 --> 02:17:13.670 I was thinking about what moves the system for 02:17:13.670 --> 02:17:17.510 greater change, as opposed to we have to know 02:17:17.510 --> 02:17:20.049 everything. In fact, most situations we can't. 02:17:20.459 --> 02:17:22.420 But we can know the factors that move things. 02:17:22.680 --> 02:17:25.319 And then we can then anchor on how to make resiliency. 02:17:26.020 --> 02:17:28.819 Efficiency is a bit of a lost leader. That's 02:17:28.819 --> 02:17:30.899 always there. But if you don't make the system 02:17:30.899 --> 02:17:32.780 more resilient and people more resilient, it'll 02:17:32.780 --> 02:17:35.559 always break. And he talks about that with common 02:17:35.559 --> 02:17:38.219 examples. And it's written in an accessible way. 02:17:38.700 --> 02:17:40.819 And so I think it anchors people on the truth 02:17:40.819 --> 02:17:43.909 that some of the questions about health. human 02:17:43.909 --> 02:17:47.590 performance and vitality of cultures are complex, 02:17:47.690 --> 02:17:50.350 but we can understand them and we can fall less 02:17:50.350 --> 02:17:54.790 for simple answers. Fantastic. What about films 02:17:54.790 --> 02:17:59.309 and documentaries? Oh God, now we've got to go 02:17:59.309 --> 02:18:01.790 by genre, but that's all right. You've touched 02:18:01.790 --> 02:18:05.370 on something I do like to watch because in one 02:18:05.370 --> 02:18:08.629 of my degrees as an undergraduate was in journalism. 02:18:09.159 --> 02:18:12.479 And also understanding how to use media as the 02:18:12.479 --> 02:18:14.979 message. And so I really love docos and then 02:18:14.979 --> 02:18:16.979 understanding some of the data is left on the 02:18:16.979 --> 02:18:19.420 ground floor, you know, or the cutting room floor, 02:18:19.440 --> 02:18:27.120 I should say. Oh, God. Probably one of the things 02:18:27.120 --> 02:18:29.479 I, you know, that really appreciate drilling 02:18:29.479 --> 02:18:34.680 down on is the lack of moral ambition of our 02:18:34.680 --> 02:18:38.489 companies. worldwide. So some of the docos on 02:18:38.489 --> 02:18:41.750 Enron, some of the docos on Theranos, those things 02:18:41.750 --> 02:18:44.170 show that, okay, there's a disconnection to social 02:18:44.170 --> 02:18:46.430 connection. There's a disconnection to what I 02:18:46.430 --> 02:18:50.909 do as a social import. And then I'll go to sport 02:18:50.909 --> 02:18:54.790 docos that go to that, looking at concussion 02:18:54.790 --> 02:18:57.950 in sport, looking at the selection process, looking 02:18:57.950 --> 02:19:02.510 at how we don't really speak. We speak to the 02:19:02.510 --> 02:19:05.639 ideals of sport, but do we live them? So it's 02:19:05.639 --> 02:19:07.540 any of those docos really kind of speak about, 02:19:07.600 --> 02:19:12.280 to me, we're failing in this mission. And so 02:19:12.280 --> 02:19:15.700 how do we get to the other side? And so unfortunately, 02:19:15.979 --> 02:19:19.000 you're getting an old man trying to recall titles. 02:19:19.399 --> 02:19:21.760 But I would say it generally falls in those, 02:19:21.940 --> 02:19:24.719 because it reminds me of my mission. It reminds 02:19:24.719 --> 02:19:27.600 me we're failing. I'll give you an example. I've 02:19:27.600 --> 02:19:30.959 got a manuscript prepared. And in this manuscript, 02:19:31.200 --> 02:19:34.889 I put together a timeline. of all the abuses 02:19:34.889 --> 02:19:39.790 towards athletes from 1940 to the current time. 02:19:41.590 --> 02:19:45.930 It's many pages where we failed. And if we don't 02:19:45.930 --> 02:19:48.250 face that stuff like in DACOs and put it front 02:19:48.250 --> 02:19:52.110 and center, we'll continue to fail it. It may 02:19:52.110 --> 02:19:54.430 not be an inspiring read, but we have to also 02:19:54.430 --> 02:19:56.930 look at who we are as human beings. And so we 02:19:56.930 --> 02:19:58.690 have to look at that stuff. Otherwise, we're 02:19:58.690 --> 02:20:01.350 not looking at truth because people love their 02:20:01.350 --> 02:20:04.440 illusions. And so I love docos in that way. It 02:20:04.440 --> 02:20:06.360 makes us have to look at ourselves in a sense 02:20:06.360 --> 02:20:09.120 of humanity. Yeah, my apologies. I'm not pulling 02:20:09.120 --> 02:20:12.659 out the titles, but again, old man, not enough 02:20:12.659 --> 02:20:15.420 caffeine in my system. No problem. I think we 02:20:15.420 --> 02:20:17.379 talked about this when we spoke before, but this 02:20:17.379 --> 02:20:18.979 is something I've been thinking about recently. 02:20:19.440 --> 02:20:21.620 You mentioned some of these large companies. 02:20:21.840 --> 02:20:24.280 I mean, William Morris and Purdue Pharma and 02:20:24.280 --> 02:20:27.100 DuPont that have literally, their products have 02:20:27.100 --> 02:20:29.979 cost in cigarettes, for example, I think per 02:20:29.979 --> 02:20:32.940 year, it's 8 million. smoking -related deaths 02:20:32.940 --> 02:20:37.000 around the world. And the fact that these people 02:20:37.000 --> 02:20:40.280 can sleep at night knowing that they are accumulating 02:20:40.280 --> 02:20:43.600 wealth at the expense of American or international 02:20:43.600 --> 02:20:47.479 lives is disgusting. But when you take a step 02:20:47.479 --> 02:20:51.120 back, to me, it's the mental health crisis that 02:20:51.120 --> 02:20:53.719 we're not talking about. The narcissistic president 02:20:53.719 --> 02:20:58.319 or the CEO of a drug company that put out OxyContin. 02:20:59.079 --> 02:21:02.120 That's a sociopath there. That's someone who 02:21:02.120 --> 02:21:06.219 is not feeling empathy, compassion, and therefore 02:21:06.219 --> 02:21:08.780 are they fit for duty, as we would say in my 02:21:08.780 --> 02:21:12.520 profession, to be a fire chief, to be the president, 02:21:12.680 --> 02:21:15.819 whatever it is, if they don't have the attributes 02:21:15.819 --> 02:21:18.280 that you need for a leader. So I find that maybe 02:21:18.280 --> 02:21:21.260 that will be the next step is actually looking 02:21:21.260 --> 02:21:23.860 at the heads of all these governments and agencies 02:21:23.860 --> 02:21:27.649 and companies. That are literally predatory on 02:21:27.649 --> 02:21:29.909 the people they're supposed to be serving in 02:21:29.909 --> 02:21:33.770 many cases, if they're in government and doing 02:21:33.770 --> 02:21:36.370 a kind of, you know, fit for duty check on them. 02:21:36.450 --> 02:21:38.149 They'll take a police officer off the street 02:21:38.149 --> 02:21:39.850 immediately if he says he's struggling. Well, 02:21:39.909 --> 02:21:42.909 what about someone who has no issue with thousands 02:21:42.909 --> 02:21:45.110 and thousands of children being killed, for example? 02:21:45.110 --> 02:21:50.549 So to me, that's a very. barely tapped conversation 02:21:50.549 --> 02:21:53.110 that we need to look at that I think will answer 02:21:53.110 --> 02:21:55.629 a lot of the, well, why the hell conversations 02:21:55.629 --> 02:21:58.930 that we keep having. I love the things you just 02:21:58.930 --> 02:22:00.809 touched on there and I can unpackage it a little 02:22:00.809 --> 02:22:02.709 bit. And I do remember our initial conversation 02:22:02.709 --> 02:22:04.590 about some of these things. So thank you for 02:22:04.590 --> 02:22:06.889 triggering that. One of the things you just talked 02:22:06.889 --> 02:22:09.549 about DuPont with the PFAS and how that affects 02:22:09.549 --> 02:22:12.590 all firefighters. And I actually reflected on 02:22:12.590 --> 02:22:16.170 this a little bit as we're coming on this podcast 02:22:16.170 --> 02:22:19.899 again, spending time. at the firehouse i remember 02:22:19.899 --> 02:22:24.399 playing in spray foam as a child so i've been 02:22:24.399 --> 02:22:27.719 exposed to certainly not your level or my father's 02:22:27.719 --> 02:22:31.879 level but multiple times and no one knowing any 02:22:31.879 --> 02:22:34.340 different but yet the company knew the harm that 02:22:34.340 --> 02:22:37.340 it could do the sackler family and pharmaceuticals 02:22:37.340 --> 02:22:41.260 and the opioid epidemic absolutely and there 02:22:41.260 --> 02:22:43.879 is science to bear on this that we know that 02:22:43.879 --> 02:22:50.010 um that most CEOs score very high on psychopathy, 02:22:50.129 --> 02:22:55.809 meaning that their concern for society is not 02:22:55.809 --> 02:22:59.690 as great as the concern for themselves or their 02:22:59.690 --> 02:23:03.690 board or the profit margin or add more to that. 02:23:04.010 --> 02:23:07.639 And some of that goes back to the culture. So 02:23:07.639 --> 02:23:10.479 if we look at those coming out of business schools 02:23:10.479 --> 02:23:13.180 in the United States, I can speak to, I can't 02:23:13.180 --> 02:23:15.000 speak to here. I don't feel comfortable speaking 02:23:15.000 --> 02:23:17.440 to Canada, but I've done the research on it. 02:23:17.500 --> 02:23:19.719 What's the ethics that they learn? Business ethics. 02:23:19.979 --> 02:23:22.459 Whatever is good for profit margin and good for 02:23:22.459 --> 02:23:25.620 the board is good for the business. Now that 02:23:25.620 --> 02:23:29.799 lacks such moral ambition and understanding that 02:23:29.799 --> 02:23:33.760 you are actually a part of society and you use 02:23:33.760 --> 02:23:36.799 society's resources. You're sometimes going to 02:23:36.799 --> 02:23:39.620 get taxed for it, and you sometimes don't get 02:23:39.620 --> 02:23:42.440 recognized that you should be taxed for it. But 02:23:42.440 --> 02:23:45.639 let's call the reality what it is. You are part 02:23:45.639 --> 02:23:48.100 of the society. Even the Supreme Court in the 02:23:48.100 --> 02:23:51.319 United States has decided they have a vote. Then 02:23:51.319 --> 02:23:56.049 what are you giving back? And you have this greenwashing 02:23:56.049 --> 02:23:58.069 of giving back, too, that if you scratch the 02:23:58.069 --> 02:24:00.170 surface of many businesses and what they say 02:24:00.170 --> 02:24:02.209 they give back and what actually happens are 02:24:02.209 --> 02:24:04.850 two different things. So there is something to 02:24:04.850 --> 02:24:07.569 bear here from a complex systems analysis. If 02:24:07.569 --> 02:24:11.090 you're not teaching from a higher education standpoint, 02:24:11.389 --> 02:24:14.770 much higher morals and values, you could argue 02:24:14.770 --> 02:24:18.950 you've obfuscated your responsibility. And so 02:24:18.950 --> 02:24:20.850 that leads into it. That's an influence point. 02:24:21.149 --> 02:24:24.290 that is from a complex system a leverage point 02:24:24.290 --> 02:24:26.790 and then it goes into all these other pieces 02:24:26.790 --> 02:24:28.309 that you're wrenching what are the checkpoints 02:24:28.309 --> 02:24:31.350 how do we check in what's the oversight and we 02:24:31.350 --> 02:24:32.950 currently have an environment where oversight 02:24:32.950 --> 02:24:35.469 is being reduced but we know what will follow 02:24:35.469 --> 02:24:39.209 we know that and it's not that power corrupts 02:24:39.209 --> 02:24:42.750 all i know that statement is said it's much more 02:24:42.750 --> 02:24:46.329 nuanced than that it doesn't mean it's going 02:24:46.329 --> 02:24:49.649 to corrupt everything but it's a greater chance 02:24:49.649 --> 02:24:53.559 that it will Deregulation of the financial systems. 02:24:53.620 --> 02:24:59.399 Gee, what happened? Are we so surprised? We need 02:24:59.399 --> 02:25:02.760 oversight because also we know people will evolve 02:25:02.760 --> 02:25:08.219 into lesser forms of values or not even know 02:25:08.219 --> 02:25:10.440 what the big system is doing. That happened with 02:25:10.440 --> 02:25:13.920 some of the failures with some of the banking 02:25:13.920 --> 02:25:17.120 systems. You have underemployees asked to do 02:25:17.120 --> 02:25:19.520 things. they're not given the why they don't 02:25:19.520 --> 02:25:21.959 even know why then they learn later on what they 02:25:21.959 --> 02:25:23.620 were doing was really against the law and they 02:25:23.620 --> 02:25:27.260 didn't know and so there are but there are many 02:25:27.260 --> 02:25:29.079 choice points we can make something different 02:25:29.079 --> 02:25:34.680 about this what man and humankind starts we absolutely 02:25:34.680 --> 02:25:38.299 can finish we absolutely can finish it and change 02:25:38.299 --> 02:25:42.940 it 100 i'm glad i asked that so thank you No, 02:25:43.040 --> 02:25:44.459 that's a great question. And you brought us back 02:25:44.459 --> 02:25:46.940 to a wonderful conversation we had prior. Yeah, 02:25:47.040 --> 02:25:48.659 I think we needed to be discussed. Like I said, 02:25:48.680 --> 02:25:51.899 especially with someone in your field. All right. 02:25:51.920 --> 02:25:53.879 The next question. Is there a person that you'd 02:25:53.879 --> 02:25:56.260 recommend to come on this podcast as a guest 02:25:56.260 --> 02:25:58.879 to speak to the first responders, military and 02:25:58.879 --> 02:26:03.840 associated professions of the world? Absolutely. 02:26:04.020 --> 02:26:08.340 There's a couple I would think about. One of 02:26:08.340 --> 02:26:11.450 my close colleagues. Well, two of my close colleagues, 02:26:11.649 --> 02:26:17.969 David Koppel, he was when I came in league in 02:26:17.969 --> 02:26:21.770 the NFL, he was probably the longest serving 02:26:21.770 --> 02:26:24.569 sports psychologist, but he's a clinical psychologist 02:26:24.569 --> 02:26:27.649 and neuropsychologist. So he spent a lot of time 02:26:27.649 --> 02:26:31.889 serving police, and actually firefighters in 02:26:31.889 --> 02:26:35.610 and he's based in the Seattle area. And so when 02:26:35.610 --> 02:26:40.059 you're, you're so cross trained as he is, that 02:26:40.059 --> 02:26:42.260 you are going to be pulled into these other performance 02:26:42.260 --> 02:26:44.700 environments to maintain occupational health 02:26:44.700 --> 02:26:47.200 and performance readiness. And he was, and he 02:26:47.200 --> 02:26:49.620 served that community. He's semi -retired now, 02:26:49.819 --> 02:26:53.739 but semi -retired for his level means he's probably 02:26:53.739 --> 02:26:57.040 working three -quarter time. Another person I 02:26:57.040 --> 02:26:59.940 think of, he's a very close colleague as well. 02:27:01.409 --> 02:27:05.190 He's an underachiever, like my good friend David 02:27:05.190 --> 02:27:08.049 Koppel. Dr. David Koppel, I should say, is Dr. 02:27:08.329 --> 02:27:12.010 Patrick Biley. So he is a forensic psychologist 02:27:12.010 --> 02:27:15.729 and worked long term with the Calgary Police 02:27:15.729 --> 02:27:19.010 Department. He is a clinical psychologist. He 02:27:19.010 --> 02:27:21.430 is a sports psychologist. And he is a lawyer. 02:27:21.770 --> 02:27:25.149 And his job was in the Supreme Court of Canada. 02:27:26.000 --> 02:27:28.620 And so he has spent his whole life, probably 02:27:28.620 --> 02:27:31.680 the majority of his career, dedicated to working 02:27:31.680 --> 02:27:34.620 with police. He's worked a lot in sport. It's 02:27:34.620 --> 02:27:37.500 a very high level as well. But he's an incredibly, 02:27:37.639 --> 02:27:40.020 they're both incredibly thoughtful human beings, 02:27:40.200 --> 02:27:43.479 dedicated their life to those who serve, but 02:27:43.479 --> 02:27:49.659 also just brilliant, brilliant men. Fantastic. 02:27:49.899 --> 02:27:52.399 Yeah, they both sound amazing. So if we're able 02:27:52.399 --> 02:27:54.040 to help facilitate a connection, I'd love to 02:27:54.040 --> 02:27:57.819 get them on. oh happy to happy to uh i look at 02:27:57.819 --> 02:28:00.840 them as great mentors as great supports to me 02:28:00.840 --> 02:28:04.479 throughout my career so brilliant well the last 02:28:04.479 --> 02:28:06.180 question before we make sure everyone knows where 02:28:06.180 --> 02:28:06.760 to find you