This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran
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founder, Ernie Colling. or go to transcendcompany
.com. Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.
As always, my name is James Gearing, and this
week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the
show British filmmaker Carl McKenzie. Now, in
this conversation, we discuss a host of topics,
from Carl's journey into the world of filmmaking,
storytelling the struggles of our British veterans,
the mental health crisis, knife crime, and so
much more. Now, before we get to this incredible
conversation, as I say every week, please just
take a moment. Go to whichever app you listen
to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback
and leave a rating. Every single five -star rating
truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making
it easier for others to find. And this is a free
library of well over 1 ,100 episodes now. So
all I ask in return is that you help share these
incredible men and women's stories so I can get
them to every single person on planet Earth who
needs to hear them. So with that being said,
I introduce to you... Carl McKenzie. Enjoy. Well,
Carl, I want to start by saying two things. Firstly,
thank you to Stuart for connecting us. And secondly,
I want to welcome you onto the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Thank you. Great to be here. So
where on planet Earth are we finding you my morning,
your afternoon? My afternoon is in a town called
Whittam, which is in Essex, just outside of London,
in between Chelmsford and Colchester, if any
of your listeners know those areas. I think that
the only area of Essex I know well is Barking
because I had a girlfriend there. And that's
a very interesting town. Yeah. Yeah. Again, like
all of these towns. They're very London overspill,
which for any American listeners is basically
around like sort of the 60s, 70s, 80s. They built
up these towns to get the families out of London.
So they're very industrial. They're very working
class. But yeah, so that's where I am today.
Brilliant. Well, let's start at the very beginning
of your timeline then. So tell me where you were
born and tell me a little bit about your family
dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings?
So, yeah, I have one sibling. I grew up here
in Whittam, in Essex. As I said a few minutes
ago, the town is very working class, very London
overspill. And, you know, I grew up like many
people around here on a council estate and, yeah,
knocking around. My dad was a mechanic. And my
mum was a stay -at -home mother. So, yeah, it
was fairly routine growing up. And the schooling
round here probably, at that time, the options
weren't available as they are now, if that makes
sense. When I was growing up, it was very much,
right, you're from a working -class town, you
go into these careers. So I actually remember
at school, saying you know i would like to be
a filmmaker i'd like to be a writer it was pretty
much laughed at and here's the recruiter from
you know the local the army or the navy or anything
like that um and yeah yeah they promote manual
jobs and you know it's a working class town and
uh and those are the options available to you
as you grow up how old are you now I'm 46 now,
which I hate saying out loud. I'm 51, so it's
even worse. Yeah, well, I don't know about you.
I don't think I aged past about 38 personally.
I stopped counting after that. I measure it by
the gym and jujitsu. Like if I'm just falling
apart, then I'm going to feel 51. If I can kind
of hang with the younger people. Helps me regress
in my mind a little bit. Yeah, I did that. I
run a marathon earlier in the year, the London
Marathon, thinking, yeah, that'll keep me young.
Yeah, so I've got a blown PCL told me otherwise
at mile 20. So yeah, the mind's holding up at
a young age, but the body not so much. Yeah,
it definitely takes work. As far as me asking
how old you were, when I was young, it was the
same kind of thing. I went to a place called
St. Mark's in Bath, and I remember the whole
career thing. It was kind of right when computers
were first coming in, so it was a personality
test, and it was going to tell you what you should
do. And I shit you not, I can't remember what
it said now, but it was like, yeah, you could
be a badger breeder in a pizza factory. And I
was just like, God, this is... depressing as
shit and also when a few years earlier when i'd
had a color vision test during the annual medical
and they'd taken a bunch of stuff off the table
you can't be a pilot you can't be a firefighter
which ironically i did in the end but and i look
back and and think about our generation collectively
there really wasn't that you can be anything
mentality and it's a shame because that's the
age where you should be lighting a fire up you
know young people's asses and say look you might
be you know, carpenter or plumber or whatever,
but be the best, you know, be a craftsman, be
a master, you know, of your class. But if you
want to be a ballet dancer or a fighter pilot,
whatever it is, you can do that too. And of course,
there are limitations when it gets to the upper
echelon, as far as if you have the potential
to be that incredibly good. But I just remember
it was such a kind of gray outlook when you left
British schools back then and, you know, seeing
your career opportunities. Yeah, well, we have
obviously a lot of factories around here. And
I don't know if it's still there, but there's
a chicken factory down the road. And literally
everyone has a story about their time when they
worked at the chicken factory around here. So,
you know, it's kind of, I mean, you get these
towns in America, like these very blue collar
towns. And yeah, it's, and I think that is the
case. As I said, it's very different now. um
like my nephews and that come home from school
and you know they've got it laid out for them
and everything and i'm not saying there wasn't
people my age that didn't go to university and
do very well but it just kind of wasn't promoted
was it it was very um like right you've left
school now go get a job that's it yeah yeah exactly
well what about sports what were you playing
back then So football, done a bit of boxing.
And, you know, I love boxing. Not fighting as
much, but the training and getting physically
fit, I absolutely love. So that and football.
Again, probably like yourself growing up. And
I always look back on this quite like nostalgically,
should we say. But when we were kids, was you
a kid that was just like into everything? Like
if you was inefficient, you weren't just like
inefficient. You was obsessed with it. Yeah.
And yeah, everything that came along each summer
was that. So football was my main sport. And
then, yeah, Thursday nights was a bit of boxing
and then playing for the local side at the weekends.
So, yeah, again, it sounds quite boring and very
typical, but it's just kind of. you know your
average uk council estate um you play football
on concrete and uh you um yeah and then you find
something local to do and it's usually fighting
based it's funny because i got into the martial
arts when i was young and so i had everything
from a wing chun dummy that i never really got
to learn how to use properly but i i would be
drilling on punch bags for hours on end and you
know my dad would get pissed off because every
time i went past like a shed door i'd like fly
and kick it and stuff so yeah bruce lee posters
on my bedroom so yeah i was i was all in on that
which again little foreign boy from bath you
know i was completely removed to be this you
know kung fu master from you know hong kong slash
seattle by that point Yeah, well, that's funny.
Actually, that's one of the big, big things,
to be honest, that wasn't pushed for me at school.
I always remember that, you know, I was obsessed
with film from a very young age, wanted to be
this filmmaker, wanted to do this, tried writing
on paper, you know, no laptop or anything. And
it was always kind of discouraged. And you kind
of got it into your... belief system and your
psyche that this was for other people. And then
I remember the actual film. It was probably around
96. Shallow Grave came out, which was Danny Boyle's
first film. It was a horror film, wasn't it?
Yeah, but it's all in Scotland and it's all British
crews and the language is very British. And then
all of a sudden you're thinking, hold on, this
isn't just for... people in america this isn't
this like far away land there's actually something
that can be done here and then yeah a few years
later after that obviously train spotting came
out and um um and in brit and in brit pop obviously
was the music scene at the time and then all
of a sudden you could do anything if you were
british you know i mean it wasn't just for other
countries and miles away this has been a real
takeaway and i've You know, he's thinking of
being a veterinary surgeon at the moment. And
I'm like, well, that's your goal now. And you
might go straight line all the way through in
doing that. My father, his granddad was a vet.
But I said, just keep your mind open. If that
fire in your heart changes, don't be afraid to
deviate. Because I wanted to be a stuntman when
I was little. I ended up becoming a stuntman
in America for, it's been 22 years now. But that
line was not a straight line. It was all kinds
of squiggles and left turns and immigration.
But you just never know. But I think, again,
when you can foster a belief in a young person
that anything is possible, especially now, you
can be a filmmaker. You can make something and
put it on YouTube. I'm an author because of Amazon.
If I had to rely on selling a story to a publisher,
I may have never released a single book. So I
think it's really exciting now. But even in the
US, we're still missing that. You can be anything,
encouraging these people, you know, these young
people to have a dream, but also to understand
that there's going to be a lot of work getting
from A to B as well. Is that the same in the
US? Because obviously the view from this side
of the pond has always been that, you know. America
is the land of dreams where you could be anything.
And here, it's always been very much what you're
exposed to here. So when I left school, I went
to college to be a mechanic because my dad was
a mechanic and my uncle was a mechanic. So that's
the one that's... um, open to you. Um, and, um,
yeah. And then I realized, you know, I had no
love for cars or engines at all, which was a
big sticking point. Um, and then, yeah, I think
there was reinsurance straight after that. Um,
and I put a short career in that, um, purely
because again, um, um, Marsh McLennan, who you
guys have over there was in this town. and you
was exposed to it and there was the opportunity
there it wasn't like okay i want to be this therefore
i'll go out and reach that it was the only thing
you was exposed to and yeah you're not exposed
to anything else but as you said now thanks to
the internet thanks to um the world being a bit
of a smaller place uh kids are exposed to a little
bit more but um but that belief still needs to
be installed like you said that you can be anything
but it takes work and no one's going to give
it to you i think because you asked you know
is it the same here and it's there's a deficit
of that and i think what has replaced that you
can be anything you know and then that has a
good and a bad connotation if it's you can be
anything and you can all earn all the money that's
not a good message but you know you can be a
value to society make a good living all those
kind of things i think that's a beautiful message
you can have a little you know corner of of the
country and a home and you know, livestock and
all that kind of thing and be self -sufficient.
That's a beautiful dream too. But I think what's
happened here is the extremism in the capitalistic
side. Like I said, that chasing the monopoly
and wanting to have all of the money is one thing.
And then you have that very divisive rhetoric
that we're having all over the place at the moment,
where if you don't, you know. 100 rely on this
political party or a vaccine or a mask or the
police or whatever the thing is then those are
your enemies over there so rather than lifting
young people up they're being divided too the
same way as the other generations are so i really
hope that we're going to see i think i really
do feel like we are now that the cracks in this
kind of nastiness and this abuse of a population
is starting to show through and i think the next
the next chapter i hope is going to be going
back to exactly that bringing people together
and lifting people up well i think what we've
seen here definitely and probably worldwide is
um the kind of footballification of the world
um and um again brits that means a little bit
more too but in um in in the uk you support the
football team the soccer team sorry uh that your
dad supported And everything your team does is
perfect and brilliant. And everything the other
team does is bad, rubbish. That player is no
good and all of that. And the world's kind of
been, especially politics, has kind of been put
into that world, isn't it? That everything one
side does, you know, I support this team, you
support that team, therefore, you know. As you
said, you're the enemy, you're over on the other
stand and I can't think anything you do is right
and you can't think anything I do is right. And
yeah, it's not good. But as I said, I do think
there is some hope because I do think hopefully
people are starting to see through this a little
bit now. Someone made a... a comment this is
about a couple years ago now on here and they
were talking about exactly that you know say
you're a man city fan and this other person is
a man united fan and they they hate each other
but they don't know each other now they meet
in ibiza and they start going oh you're english
oh yeah yeah now where are you from manchester
i'm from manchester and all of a sudden there's
these commonalities and it's the same you know
again if you've got these two teams that hate
each other and then we go to the world cup now
all of a sudden they're england fans And it makes
you realize the ridiculousness of this pigeonholing.
Tribalism can be very positive and there's a
lot of beautiful things about football. And I
do call it football, by the way, because we use
our feet. But when it, like you said, when it
becomes black and white and everything they do
is wrong and everything we do is right, that's
when you lose that commonality rather than we're
both two groups that love the game of football.
And I'm going to cheer on my side and you're
going to cheer on your side. When that becomes
hateful, like when we were young and people were
literally dying at football games, that's where
there's the problem. Yeah. And I think what you
just said there was when they meet up in Ibiza,
that's the other trouble with the world is most
of the world is now online. So these argue, like
if we were in the same room and we had different...
So I grew up with a guy called Ben. Politically,
we couldn't be more different. But when we meet
up, it never comes up. You know what I mean?
We never talk about that. Because in reality,
you don't go around going, hello, fancy a beer?
What do you believe about abortion? No one talks
like that. You mingle. But because most of the
world is online, that's that's where it is these
people aren't meeting up so it's only about people's
opinions and everyone's opinion is better than
the next yeah absolutely well you mentioned before
we hit record actually about you know one of
the big options in a working class town is the
military and obviously it's the same here as
well talk to me about that paul was you know
with some of your school friends and then um
how were you able to actually stay on the path
to filmmaking yourself well yeah i mean i mean
it probably wasn't one or the other it's um as
i said so you know i was at college learning
to be a mechanic um and then it was like okay
don't want to do this and then it was at that
point i did flirt with the military um but the
thing is so um just just to give again another
um bit of a idea of the area um in colchester
uh which is 15 miles down the road. It's a military
town. It's a huge barracks. It's got a military
prison there. The Gurkhas always stay there when
they come over. So it's always on your doorstep.
Yeah. And then the other way, if you go in the
other direction where Chelmsford is, along the
high street, there's all recruitment centers.
So again, it's very much on your doorstep. And
as I said, when you leave school, it's a genuine
career option. You know what I mean? And that's
funny enough what I was actually going to bring
up with you, actually. I think what seems to
be missed here is when people actually do get
pulled into one of these jobs, be it a firefighter,
be it a nurse, be it a doctor, be it, you know,
in the military, people always seem to forget
about the job aspect of it. yeah and a lot of
people join from working class towns to military
because they want to do a job and they want to
do something that matters yeah and that is all
the um commercials now are um you know a guy
working in a pub bored of his town but then he
was made in the royal navy and he's traveling
you know all in the arctic and all of that but
it is that escape with another job Yeah. And
what we seem to forget, we seem to be very big
in this country about promoting being a firefighter
or a nurse. It's a calling. They're not doing
it for the money. They're not doing it as a job.
They're doing it because it was the only thing
that they were born to do. And that sounds positive.
But what that ends up doing is when people come
saying, oh, it is a job and I'm glad you think
I'm a hero. Can I have some support? Can I have
some more money? Then it becomes, oh, no, they
don't do it for the money. They do it for the
calling. And, you know, we had prime ministers
here during COVID standing out the front of number
10, clapping nurses. As soon as they wanted more
money. and more support than it was, ah, no,
we don't want to do that. It's a calling for
them. And for the military, I think it's really
bad because obviously they get built up to be
this hero so much and it's a calling. You don't
really need to give them the support when they
come home because, you know, it's a calling.
They've done it for more than that and all of
that. That is something that seems to be always
missed, the job aspect of it. And as much as
I like holding these people up in high regard,
as they should be, removing the job aspect always
makes it harder, easier, should I say, to give
them less, give them more what they need. But
sorry, back to the original question anyway.
But yeah, so it was a valid job option when I
left school. And, I mean, you've seen the film.
There's the scene in the bar where they're all
chatting and messing around. All the guys who
are not actors, should we say, are real -life
veterans. And one of the veterans I did go to
school with, funnily enough, who's sitting in
the bar. So, yeah. But, again, he joined later.
It was for the need of a job. That's what it
was. But for myself, you know, it weren't a path
I went down. I got into reinsurance and still
thinking at that time that people like me and
people from my background don't become filmmakers.
And that was it. And then me and my wife were
traveling around the world. And it was kind of,
I kind of kept bumping into people who were actual
filmmakers and started noticing a lot of their
backgrounds weren't what I expected. And then
it becomes apparent that, okay, that option wasn't
open to me as a kid, but now I'm an adult, the
only person holding me back is now me. And, you
know, at that point it flipped. It was like,
okay, wasn't exposed to it, but... that's in
the past now the only person not pursuing it
is me so it's my fault now and it's me who needs
to crack on um so so yeah so that kind of epiphany
came when I was traveling and um then when we
was traveling we we went into Sydney and um I
I'm always going to remember this um I uh was
in the kitchen in a hostel. We was getting our
food ready. And there was a guy, like an absolute
monster of a guy. And he was shadowboxing in
the kitchen while he was waiting for his food.
American guy started chatting to him. And he
ended up becoming a really close friend of mine.
His name was Brian Collins. And he was stationed
in Korea. And he had literally just taken some
leave and come to Sydney. got a lot of house
on fire and become really really close friends
but uh yeah he was in the us military army rangers
and um yeah so uh a lot of uh our um uh history
and when he left and experiences and all of that
uh sort of came apparent and and were through
him and a lot of the american soldiers i know
now that helped with the film um was also uh
through brian um originally so um so yeah so
filmmaking and the link to the military kind
of come from my travels and then when i came
home back to london we was living in london and
then yeah it was um okay what how am i gonna
become a filmmaker and what ended up happening
was um we we made some really rubbish short films
which the people will never see in the light
of day and um the next one was a bit better next
one was a bit better than that and it was um
yeah and then eventually you start realizing
especially in london and the help of the you
know facebook and you know the online world you
start building a filmmaking community in london
and you start learning learning learning and
yeah and that's how it kind of snowballed really
um and uh yeah and then before you know you wake
up one day and you're making stuff that's actually
pretty good and um you know and and you're you're
happy to get out into the world two things firstly
is funny when when i was traveling around the
world it was sydney where i got my audition to
be a stuntman at universal studios so that was
actually a pivotal point in my life too yeah
um going back though to the job element of first
responders you know military etc that is a really
interesting point because i see that same And
there's less kind of hero worship in the UK when
it comes to fire and paramedics and nurses than
there is here in America. And obviously, 9 -11
was a big part of that, too. But, you know, we
do have volunteers in the fire service and in
the States. And I've had a lot of conversations
with people recently where there are volunteer
fire stations in suburban areas with thousands
and thousands of people, massive tax bases. But
it's exactly what you're saying. Well, that's
their calling. They love to do it. So we don't
need to start paying them. Now, don't get me
wrong. You're out in the middle of nowhere. Now
that's where a volunteer fire station still has
a place. No question. You know, a town of 300
people, you can't have a full -time, you know,
fire service there. But yeah, so, but that's
exactly what it is. It's the calling, you know,
you want that kind of person in that role. But
I think we're now going to take a dive into the
mental health side. What I've learned over this
nine years and 1 ,100 conversations is that a
lot of us are called into the first responder,
the military, et cetera, because of things that
happened when we were young. Now, that doesn't
mean that we're broken. It doesn't mean that
we're a liability when we walk in. But if you
did have struggles when you were a child, and
there's a spectrum of struggles from sexual abuse
to simply feeling unloved by a parent, now you're
driven. to be the protector you're kind of building
an armor around yourself you know you want to
be there when other people are having their worst
day you don't want people to feel the pain that
you felt so it's a noble calling to take you
in there but if at the front door you aren't
addressing those things so they become strengths
now they're pushed down and this is why some
of these you know young soldiers young firefighters
they're like what happened they were only you
know on for a year Well, because we haven't talked
about the other 19 years of their life, you know,
and not to mention the fact that we're bringing,
you know, in the military, especially like 18
year olds that then go off to the Middle East
and fight, you know, these are children still.
So 100 % is a calling. But firstly, we've got
to understand why is that calling there and have
these, you know, the counseling and the mental
health tools right at the beginning, not when
they're falling apart. And then secondly, like
you said. because that's a certain kind of person
that will put the uniform on, we need to envelop
them. Because no one else wants to do that. No
one else wants to go to Iraq. No one else wants
to cut these teenagers out of a car. There's
only a small... Section of society is willing
to do that. So we need to kind of flip the pyramid
and make sure that we take care of the people
when everyone else is at home, whether it's COVID
or whatever the thing is, that are holding the
line. Because watching people clap for nurses
when they had no PPE, staffing or beds was disgusting.
Yeah. But again, they got the clap, right? So
everyone cheered and that's enough. And yeah,
it does feel... I mean, I felt that at the time.
It was just like when the current government
were outside clapping, you're like, okay, but
you're giving them nothing else. It's, you know,
a clapping each night is not going to help them,
to be honest. And that's a strange thing. And
what you were just saying there, though, about
people when they join. Yeah, I was kind of conflicted
on that because my view on it. was always that,
you know, they should maybe do a mental health
check before people join the military. And if
they're not going to be the person to hold it,
then they maybe shouldn't be going into the military.
And I was talking to a doctor about this at Combat
Stress, and he did actually throw up a little
bit of a counter argument there. And he said,
well, you've got to remember a lot of the people
who... do join the military in the UK, do come
from bad backgrounds and they're using it to
escape that environment. And many of them go
on to be very, very good soldiers and very, very
good careers. So, yeah, as I think we've said
this time and time again, there's no, I think
we've got to stop this, looking at this as one
size fits all. And really find a way, as you
said, to assess people, to not block them or
any opportunities of blocking them, but make
sure that they address whatever's, you know,
could come up later on. And the other thing I
was just going to pick up on what you were saying
about young people. And I'll say this now. One
of the reasons I made the film was the guy I
mentioned, Brian Collins, isn't with us anymore.
And he committed suicide in 2012. And I went
to his funeral in Philadelphia. And I'll always
remember this. Some guys from his regiment came
and done a gun salute and everything. It was
really nice. And I went over and I was chatting
to the guys who, who done it. They're gun salute.
They are really nice guys. I said, look, I'm
going to buy you a round of drinks. That was
really beautiful. What you guys did. And I mean,
there was talking about their deployments and
all of that, but then they said that they couldn't
accept a drink from me because there wasn't 21.
And that really came home to me. And I was like,
Yeah. Okay. So we can send you to, we can trust
you to go out and die for your country. But you're
not allowed to drink in public, you know? And
that's when you realize how young these guys
are. I mean, in this country, you can join the
military. I think it's 16. So you can be deployed,
but you can't, you can't vote. You can't drive.
You can't drink. You know what I mean? So you
can fight in a war, but you can't vote for the
government. that sends you yeah mad yeah no it's
crazy and then you look again at the deliberate
use of people so young because if we're talking
about trauma and you know physiology the brain
isn't developed at that age and this is why you
know now in america we're having a recruitment
crisis which again completely avoidable but what's
happened is they've just worked them into the
ground and so young people are seeing the detriment
of being in the fire service now, and they're
not wanting to do this. And I don't blame them
at all until it's fixed. So now you've got these
departments that are trying to get high school
kids, 18 year olds. And, you know, you, you know,
most fire departments, there is no, you know,
in the, in the military, you're going to have
obviously the, you know, the infantry and the
people that are out there on the front line,
but there's a lot of, you know, the military
that you might be mechanic or something, and
you're not seeing horrible shit every day. In
the fire service you are, it's very rare that
you're in an area where you don't run very many
calls. So 18 -year -old right into almost daily
gruesome calls and heartbreaking screams and
all that stuff. And it's irresponsible. But when
you look at the military, there's a deliberate
selection of that age because they're not going
to question it. And then this is why I think
so many veterans struggle later on because now
they're old enough and wise enough to reflect
back and go, well, wait a second. Why were we
in Iraq? This is supposed to be a response to
9 -11. I was a completely different group of
people. Then you tell us that there's weapons
of mass destruction and they were never found,
you know, but it's and then you have that moral
injury as well. But you've got these kids that,
you know, just blindly loyal at that point. And
then you add an event like 9 -11 and now they're
just all fired up. and you can steer that group
any way that you want. And then, you know, that's
the term disposable heroes. And then when they're
done, oh, well, all right, see you. Thanks for
your service. But it was their calling, so why
should we help them now? You know what I mean?
And it's this constant cycle all the time. And,
yeah, and as I said, we've got here junior doctors
protesting for more pay. It used to be that,
you know, people would either support them or
not. But now the hate they get from social media
for wanting just more help, more money, it's
crazy. It really is. But it goes back to this
footballification of the world that we spoke
about earlier. But, yeah, but on young lads,
it is that. If you go, oh, you know. At 19, you're
a man, you're the ultimate hero. Look how much
everyone loves you. Look how much everyone's
proud of you. Then, you know, you're not going
to question it, are you? Because, you know, you've
grown up to be the ultimate warrior, should we
say. And what a bloke, you know, the manliest
of the man. And, yeah, it's hard for them to
then speak up later. Speaking of young doctors,
there's so many areas where certain countries
do things really well. Norway's prisons, Finland's
education system, Portugal's decriminalization
of drugs. I mean, really good system that have
revolutionized their countries. And I've always
stood by the fact that the NHS is the best healthcare
system out there when fully funded and supported,
which was when I was young. And I grew up and
I tell people this, Bupa, that private health
insurance in England, my grandparents had their
whole life and they got into their 90s and they
were priced out where they just couldn't even
afford the premiums anymore. So they paid for
decades and decades and decades. And then the
insurance company was like, well, thanks for
all the money, but you can't afford us anymore.
So we're not covering you anymore. And so my
granddad at 99 years old had cancer and he was
still so young physiologically that it went through
him like a young person. And I saw the most amazing
care, doctor's home visits, nurse home visits,
hospice care, you know, I mean, all these things.
And then they visited my grandmother for a couple
of weeks after he passed away. Phenomenal care.
And what breaks my heart, because at its core,
it is by far the best system around the planet.
But this privatization and this, you know, picking
apart of that. This has resulted in the obesity
crisis in the UK, because if you have a tax based
system, this altruistic that says all the British
people, people in the UK, we're going to chip
in and take care of the elderly, the young, you
know, the pregnant, the people with cancer, the
people with, you know, car accidents and the
rest of us will take care of you. And one day
maybe we'll need that care. And if it's a tax
based system, then the push is for the rest of
us. Let's make the British as healthy as possible.
so that we're not dipping into that tax. Well,
now you switch it where you've got this pseudo
-American model, you know, muscling its way in.
And now there's money in the sick. So, and you
see it reflected in the UK. You know, if it was
truly supported of the NHS, the British people
would still be really, really healthy because
it would be economically favorable. And you'd
probably have no freaking, you know, young doctors
and nurses picketing because they would be supported
and well -paid. you know have the kind of recruitment
where they're not struggling and having to work
extra shifts but I've watched the system that
I grew up with just be picked apart and then
there's a linear relationship between that and
the health of the people in the UK and it's and
it's heartbreaking yeah no 100 % agree with that
I mean I'll be honest every time I've needed
the NHS nhs or any of my family have needed the
nhs it's only ever been positive but um and just
bringing it back to football um the the thing
is is uh you know if a goalkeeper makes a mistake
um it usually leads to a goal right and if somebody
in the nhs is tired or overworked or you know
going on you know 19 20 hour shifts that mistake's
going to be crucial and but as you said that
the health of the country um unemployment if
if the country's sicker unemployment less people
are going to be out of work which means more
benefit and you know these all feed each other
and um yeah it starts with a healthy nation would
be would be best for everyone but um If we run
the world, eh, James? Well, I mean, going back
to it, though, I think, you know, writing and
filmmaking, I think this is needed more so now
than ever because we've had so many barriers
put up to communication and even social media,
you know, these algorithms. You try and put good
things into the world, you're not even close
to as successful as if you put something nasty
or divisive or extremist. I've said this the
last few years, the most silenced voice is the
middle ground, the common sense. They don't want
to hear it. So I think this is where podcasts,
books, documentaries, films that actually have
some clout are really getting the people because
you're circumnavigating all these barriers that
people are putting up deliberately to try and
stop people critically thinking and asking questions.
Yeah, no, definitely. I 100 % agree with that.
You know, obviously there's always that argument,
isn't it? Should art be political and all of
that? And I think, well, all art is political
because all art should have something to say.
But, yeah, I'm hoping that's what we're going
to do with the film. I hope we're going to open
some eyes and get people talking about it. So,
yeah, we're hopefully doing the right thing with
it. So walk me through some of the films prior
to Unseen Scar. Sorry, I had to check for a second
there. That kind of led you towards telling this
story specifically. Well, as I said, so we'd
made a few TV pilots and we'd been in a few feature
films in different levels. And then, yeah, but
what actually ended up happening is... As I said,
my friend took his own life in 2012. It hit me
a bit hard. And then I started looking into,
you know, veterans and what their issues are
from no other reason than to help friends that
I still had at that time. Just wanted to understand
it a little bit more and take it in a bit more
and let people know who were still with us that,
you know, if they wanted to chat. I was here,
you know what I mean? No, no judgment, nothing.
Just, just even if they just wanted a mouth off,
have a beer, whatever it be. So, so that was
kind of the turning point from that point of
view. And that, and the filmmaking at that time
wasn't really connected to be honest. This was
just obviously one part of my life where, you
know, a lot of friends who are veterans. may
or may not have needed help and a sympathetic
ear. And then there was the filmmaking. All my
films that I've made up to this date have always
had something to say, have had always a bit of
a social commentary about them. That's just what
interests me. It goes back to what I was saying
when you were a kid. If you're going to be a
kid and you're going to be into something, be
really into it and make what you want to make.
And, you know, don't waver from that line. Just
make sure it's important to you. So all the films
I've made have that social commentary and there's
something that I find interesting in it. And
then I'm just trying to remember what year. It
was just before COVID, funnily enough. I met
up with the producer of this film, which is Dr.
Kasia Wilk. She wasn't in the film industry,
but she's a psychologist and a therapist. And
she wanted to go back to what you were just saying,
funnily enough. She wanted to make... films to
reach people and those films were going to be
about choice and the choices we make to help
us recover from whatever it may be and you know
whatever trauma it may have happened in our lives
so we started speaking myself and kasha she she
she called her company choice point productions
um and you know she explained what she wanted
to make films about i then said you know, that
I would be interested in making a film about
veterans and the choices they make. But it was
quite important at that time, as I said to her,
that we didn't want to make a film, which was,
how can I put it? It needed to be about the aftermath
and coming home and the mental health side of
it. I didn't really want to focus too much on
what had happened, be it in Iraq or Afghanistan
or wherever they had been. And so that, completely
aligned with what Cashel wanted to do. So we
got together, we started building the team and
we thought, okay, right, this is good. We've
got the feature film ready to go and we will
start making it probably towards the end of 2019,
2020, let's go. And then that became an impossibility
because the whole world shut down and we was
like, right, okay. So we decided to spend that
time developing. the project a little bit more
let's so restart and um that eventually led to
us making the proof of concept and making the
film kind of a bit bigger and a few more strands
um so so that led us to the proof of concept
short film which um which is what we've been
making now and and so and just released so the
the first thing to do with that was um literally
spoke to every veteran i knew um their families
their friends them and didn't have like nice
conversations with them to be honest uh you know
it was it was very you know harsh truths very
very real very unfiltered and you know i can
only thank all the veterans i know for that um
i mean i won't mention their names because um
you know i haven't spoke to them about this beforehand
but um you know very thankful to them for um
being that open and that is what helped us write
the script the way it was and how will it could
be um and then yeah and then we went on from
there um and we filmed over two blocks um so
it was yeah nearly a year um nearly took a whole
year just to to make in in these two blocks and
uh yeah and then it was finally ready for release
and um combat stress have been great in helping
us. You know, many others have been good in helping
us as well. And funnily enough, that's where
I was at the NHS for veterans talking about the
film. It was a group that's in North London,
which is where I met Stu and who eventually put
me onto yourself. And yeah, that's how we got
here. So the film's out and about now. It's doing
its festival run. we've had our premiere in London,
which turned into something quite nice. We done
a Q &A at the end of it and we prepared for all
of our questions about, you know, camera lenses
and, you know, what did you think it was in that
shot? But it actually didn't end up like that.
Rather than questions, many of the veterans in
the audience wanted to just make statements and
talk about how they felt about the film and how...
related to them and speak very positively about
the film and their own experiences. And it suddenly
becomes something that we didn't expect, which
was a lot better than your standard Q &A. Because
we were hearing from those people, the real people.
And yeah, it was quite a nice moment. I hosted
a showing for Kevin Hines' documentary. He's
one of the guys that jumped off the Golden Gate
Bridge and survived. And he's become this incredible
advocate for mental health. And it was one of
those ones where you could basically, if you
sold enough tickets to the local cinema, you
would actually be able to host a showing. And
so we did that. And then same thing when the
film was done. It wasn't my film. I was just
trying to, again, spark conversation and hopefully
sow some hope in some people. And my God. Like
you said, it wasn't really Q &A. It was people
starting to share their stories and people were
in tears and they were hugging each other. And
this is the superpower, whether you're just being
vulnerable at a firehouse kitchen table and allowing
your story to hopefully help other people open
up or whether it's a film like this or whether
it's my show, because I hope this is the same
thing that's going to happen with that as well.
It's not that you brought all the answers. it's
just that you've opened the door for someone
else to come out and say, I thought, I thought
everyone else was all right. I thought I was
the only one that was a pussy. You know what
I mean? And you've debunked that whole thing
and you realize, you know, I won't give too much
away, but you know, some of the people that you
thought were struggling weren't and vice versa.
And, you know, but when you actually put it all
out, you know, in front of you and you get rid
of that fake machismo bollocks that we were raised,
you know, as young people, it's amazing how.
that vulnerability is such a relief you know
people are finally i can actually say yeah i've
been struggling you know and then as your film
alludes to in one of the you know the statements
that the psychologist says you know it's not
normal no human is is you know wired to deal
with war or what we see in the fire service or
paramedicine or the er you know this is an and
we've taken all the horrible shit and we've given
it to one percent of the population to deal with
so you know i think it's it's so important it
doesn't surprise me at all the moment you said
there was a q a immediately i knew what you were
going to say because i've seen it so many times
and i've heard it from so many people that have
been on their healing journey had the courage
to then share their story and then at the end
there's a line of people trying to you know talk
to them yeah and it's nice because as i said
it's it's when you realize that um Many filmmakers
say this. Once you put a film out there, it doesn't
belong to you anymore. It's for the world. And
when these conversations were going on, I've
had my part in something that's bigger than me,
and now it belongs to everyone else, and it sparked
a conversation, as you said. And it's a real
sort of nice moment that you go, okay, this is...
this made everything worthwhile of why we were
making it. So the sleepless nights, the issues
we had going backwards and forwards. But, yeah,
it's a real nice moment. So one thing I didn't
actually say about making the film is everybody
involved in the film was so into it, which was
really good. Everybody felt it was an important
film to make and everybody brought their own
little... own little bit to it and works beyond
and look this is this is a short film um proof
of concept um paid for by whatever money we could
scrap to get together so to speak no one was
earning big on this we'll say that um and still
everybody turned up and you'd hit it out the
park um so so it was so nice and um mike mckell
who plays the therapist um in in the film funnily
enough he he said to me um as soon as he read
the line um and you know the listeners won't
have seen it yet but um there's a line in there
when he says it's scary what a smile can hide
and he said as soon as he read the that line
that's that's the one he wanted to get on set
and deliver and um and as i said this is a lot
of the script has come from Talking to therapists,
talking to veterans, you know, really sort of...
So, you know, yes, I wrote it, but this has come
from most people's experiences and most, you
know, most real -life events. So, yeah, all the
actors, as I said, Andrew Lee Potts put in a
great performance, Luke Mabley put in a great
performance, Mike McHale, as I said, and even
people who were just there for the odd day decided
to... putting a performance that we couldn't
have expected to be as good. And I think that's
what really makes the film work, that everybody
who's worked on it turned up and said, right,
I'm going to give my best work because we feel
this subject's important. What are you hearing
as far as the ease with which they can find mental
health tools? And then the efficacy of the ones
that they are finding. That's been pretty mixed,
to be honest. I mean, as you know, we put it
at the end of our film and on our website, we
do have links to try and make those resources
a little bit easier. So, you know, people can
leave the film, just remember the title of the
film and then go find resources that way if they
haven't. There is... But it's very mixed. Some
people talk about certain charities or NHS help
and say how great it's been. Others say that
it's been useless and there's no help at all.
And vice versa with any MPs that are in the Office
of Ministers of Veterans. Yeah, some I've talked
about very highly. Others talk about very...
you know, frustrating. And, um, yeah, so it has
been very mixed. Um, I will be honest until you
mentioned the therapies, um, uh, going down in,
was it, uh, Bristol, the professor you had on
the podcast? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The MDMA led therapies
and the psilocybin and all these other things.
So obviously I'm not a veteran. So, and, um,
so I, I don't know how much resource they get.
But where I've been looking into it, there's
stuff that, unless I'd met up with yourself,
that I wouldn't have known about or even heard
about. So there's a lot of stuff that isn't really,
again, it probably goes back to what we were
saying about careers as kids. There's a lot of
stuff you just aren't exposed to. And when you
come out of the military, who helps? Okay, you've
got your GP, you've got combat stress, and you've
got help for heroes or whatever. because you've
seen them on the tv um and yeah but i'm not seeing
a real focal point of you should do this you
should go this route you should go that route
um again um from only the issues i've had probably
you know with my own mental health um i found
the nhs to be great but that that hasn't been
for everybody. You know what I mean? So yeah,
it does feel like it needs more focus, but again,
it probably also needs, if you want the data
to come forward of how to help people, you need
to make it more acceptable for people to talk
about this and to come forward. And by saying
no, and you know, it's all coming back and say,
we were doing a full loop here, but by saying,
no, you're a hero. You don't need help. You know,
I mean, you can get through this, you know, because
we're putting you up on this pedestal. And to
talk is seen as probably shattering this image
that you've been created by society and by yourself.
Then it's not going to be easy. um yes we need
to do that we need we need to make sure that
it's easier to come forward and the other thing
that we we touch on in the film funnily enough
and where there seems to be very little help
is um we try we try and show the effects it has
on friends it has on siblings it has on um the
the main character's wife and these relationships
there and that's funny enough some of the feedback
we got at the premiere that um uh people veterans
whose wives were there were saying yeah we're
finally someone's actually put that forward um
but it seems to be no help for you know um uh
partners at all and living with someone with
mental health can be just as hard as the person
actually with the mental health issues um so
again it seems to be forgotten that This affects
everyone. I did notice recently that Combat Stress
were pushing something about how this person
is suffering with PTSD. And as the advert goes
on, you realize that it's actually a small child
who they're talking about. Even though they've
never been to war, even though they've never
been part of the military, they are the person
who's really being affected by this. by a parent
being distant or no longer with them. So it is
starting to be noticed. But again, I'll be honest,
until I made this film, I would have been aware
of none of it. And veterans I've spoke to are
not always aware of this help that they can get.
Well, that's, again, the kind of theme of my
book that will be the show is that multi -generational
trauma. And this is, as we alluded to, the upbringing
of our soldiers, our firefighters, all these
careers. There's dominoes already falling. And
you look at their parents' upbringing and their
grandparents' upbringing. I mean, it was two
generations ago that our men and women were going
to World War II, going to fight the Nazis and
the Japanese. coming back with all those moral
injuries and ptsd and all the other things and
then that you know manifests everything from
you know some people are able to process it healthy
but i would argue they're probably the minority
and then you had a lot there was alcoholism and
domestic abuse and infidelity and you know all
these things and now these young people have
grown up in that now you've got another generation
another generation so it's important that we
talk about the kind of ripple effect you've got
your veteran you've got your firefighter you
know but then that those ripples go out always,
you know, in a positive way or a negative way,
depending on if they've been able to find a therapy.
And I think this is why it's so important to
talk about all of the things that are available
is there's a lot of people that will sit in front
of a counselor and it just doesn't help. Some
people don't want to revisit their shit in that
state, in that anxious state, in that depressed
state, whatever it is. And this is a superpower
of some of these other therapies. You know, MDMA,
you know, is a... big part of ecstasy we used
to call it the love drug you know it was actually
a a marriage counseling drug that's what it was
originally developed for to bring really bring
couples together yeah so what it does is it drops
down all that kind of fear response and now they
feel safe and then they're led through a counseling
session they're not given it and then they leave
the the clinic it's an in -clinic treatment three
sessions over about six weeks And they then go
through a counseling session and start accessing
some things they couldn't before. Then you go
a little deeper. Now you've got ayahuasca and
ibogaine, some of these things that are, you
know, the kind of plant medicine side. And now
they're, you know, even more, you know, a deeper
experience. And then you've got the 5 -MeO DMT,
which kind of is this, you know, removal of the
ego. But just knowing that they're all there
is the most important thing. It might simply
be. you know canine therapy that's the the thing
that helps you turn a corner or you might need
to go and do a full -on ayahuasca session but
if all you think is available is sitting down
with the counselor that you were told to go see
or psychiatric meds how many men and women have
we lost because they had the courage to ask for
help that was what they were given it didn't
work because you know i've had so many people
on the show that said their counselor said look
i can't help you sorry Well, imagine what that
does to someone at the end of their rope. So
how many have we lost because they were told
that's all that's available to you? So educating
people on this vast spectrum is so important
because then it gives hope. Okay, that wasn't
the right fit. I'm going to go and try this.
And I think that needs to be the next step is
that understanding that your pain is everything
from childbirth all the way through to where
you are now, including war, fire, et cetera.
But then... realizing that to unpack it you might
not you might need to do more than just you know
sitting in a chair talking to someone for 60
minutes yeah i think what you you said um when
we spoke originally when um you said if it can
be framed uh because as we said especially with
military guys and girls their whole life has
been right you've got to be the uh the optimum
fitness so just for you to operate and if it
could be reframed that you know that includes
mentally yeah and they come out and say right
okay stay fit you know but stay mentally fit
as well if it could be reframed that way that
it is helping themselves to like that then then
that would be a better thing but yeah it's um
but but again as you said like all these uh you
know mdma drugs or anything like that um it goes
back to what we said at the start of this one
size don't fit all and um and yeah but we do
need to drop that barrier well again and you
know i don't sort of talk your audience through
the whole film but um you know we we did try
and capture that in the bar scene when they talk
about going to therapy and um the actors absolutely
nailed it because it feels awkward um two two
men talking about going to therapy and talking
about your problems it should feel awkward because
the two characters are feeling awkward even talking
about it and they move off it as quickly as possible
because it's embarrassing and that's what we
need to get past you're 100 right and um make
it so if you can get your your mind sharp and
fit uh it's just like going down the gym um it's
the same One area that struck me as well is he's
talking about the DUI. And again, I won't go
too deep into it, but there's this kind of line
that he has. And basically that, you know, I
serve my country and now you're judging me. And
it kind of struck because this is the other side
that's really under discussed. And even in my
profession, there was a lot of shame and guilt,
anyone that got caught with DUI. And don't get
me wrong, drink driving, you know, potentially
is fatal. completely innocent people so i'm not
excusing that but also addressing the addiction
side we talk about the suicide and that's that's
the the big kind of bullseye at the moment but
you know the overdoses and the the duis and those
things that's all part of the same exact conversation
but you're gonna send a young person off to war
and then they come back and then they you know
lean into alcohol and then they get locked up
for you know bar fights or you know dui or whatever
it is And what does that do to that person? Now,
of course, again, doesn't make it right. But
how can we nip that in the bud as well? It's
all part of the same conversation. You know,
if you're able to give someone the healing tools
to start processing what they have been through,
not just war, but prior to that as well, you
know, you're going to greatly diminish the alcohol
related incidents as well. But you've got a veteran
and now they have the audacity to lean into alcoholism,
you know, then. Now they're locked up and now,
you know, some of them are homeless and you've
just got this downward spiral from an 18 -year
-old that you put in a uniform and sent to fight
your wars for you. Yeah, and I think that is
probably worse in the UK. I mean, you may say
differently. But in the UK, we have a weird obsession
with alcohol. It's, you know, whatever the occasion,
you know, you've got to have a... You've got
to have a beer with it. You know, if it's a wedding,
a funeral, if it's a bath, whatever it be, if
it's Friday, you know what I mean? The sun's
out. If it's too dark out to do anything, we
go for our goal. And I do remember an American
friend, he was struggling when he came back from
war as well and left the military. And when I
was with him, he had quite a few – drinks in
front of him um and it was other american friends
that said he drinks a lot i'll be honest i didn't
notice because having a couple lined up in you
know for a brit isn't that um that that weird
um so we do have a really weird um relationship
with alcohol in in the uk and it is very easy
to go unnoticed should we say if you're drinking
too much Because the society as a whole has that
obsession. So, yeah. And as you just said, you
know, there's other drugs that can be used for
good. Alcohol can't really, to be honest. And
it's the one that's very legal and very, as I
said, that obsession with it. So, yeah, I would
say it was easier to hide through alcohol in
this country than... than many others. I'm not
saying it's easier for other countries, but it
is definitely easier to hide. You know what's
interesting? I've had this conversation with
quite a few people. When I first moved here,
I had a similar experience as far as the Americans
not being able to drink, where I went to a summer
camp. I worked six years in upstate New York,
and the first year I was 20. And, you know, I'd
been drinking for, you know, since I was got
a kid and again, not drinking, drinking, but,
you know, you allowed a glass of wine with, you
know, Sunday roasts and that kind of thing. And
so it was weird. And I actually ended up circumnavigating
it. I had a good time with everyone the first
night and they forgot to ask for my ID the rest
of the time and say we were out in the sticks.
So they didn't even care that much. But what
I, you know, when I started moving here, there
was this culture here where it's like beer pong
and keg stands and funnels and all this stuff.
And I was reflecting back and like, we never
did that in the UK. And I think it was because
it wasn't stigmatized when you were young. And
don't get me wrong. There's a lot of people that
drink way too young, you know, way too much.
And it's absolutely detrimental, but it wasn't
like that pulling back of the bow until you're
21 and then letting go because you end up with
this extremism, you know, people just getting
absolutely shit face. Whereas I remember a drinking
culture in the UK is definitely a thing. And,
you know, every. no matter how small the village
you got a post office a church and a pub you
know at minimum but there wasn't that immediately
let's just get shit face let's do shots you know
it was it was you know fear and conversation
so even though like you said that can escalate
to where you're not noticing that there's you
know two or three pints lined up contrasting
those two i mean you know the the common denominator
is alcohol just doesn't do any good full stop
let's be completely honest but withholding it
and making it illegal till 21 has its detriment
but then like you said that slow you know death
by a thousand cuts of of you know as you progress
through the drinking age drink you more and more
and more that is kind of um it's a really interesting
point it's something that you don't notice because
it's so slow yeah i suppose yeah i suppose in
in america um it's it is that college party side
of it, isn't it? Where, as you said, it's just
a death by a thousand cuts here that we don't
go wild like that, but it's constant drinking,
drinking, drinking. And then in the rest of Europe,
you know, their kids drink a lot younger than
probably us, but they don't have that obsession
with binge drinking as much as probably the English
speaking world does. Or I suppose Germany have
a, a kind of obsession with it as well. But yeah,
the, the Australia's the, the America, Canada
will, and Britain, we, we have this binge drinking
situation, which is where our obsession sort
of grows, I suppose in and manifests in different
ways. But yeah, it is definitely, I think that's
the trouble here. Veterans hitting the beer or
people with trauma hitting, hitting the booze.
it is a it does take a long time to notice because
you know people don't see it as an issue um so
so yeah so that is as you just said alcohol does
no good at all um especially when you think of
the stuff that's illegal in this country and
in america and the good that can do but what
does booze do for you just gets you in trouble
so yeah exactly and that's the thing i mean you
know a lot of these treatments like ibogaine
for example you know, they go for this weekend,
they do it. And then I think one of the missing
pieces is then doing the work after. So, you
know, you're still unpacking everything from
your past and you're working on, you know, healthier
outlets, whether it's exercise and, you know,
better food and hydration and sleep and all the
things. But Ibogaine has been shown to like literally
nip addiction in the bud, opioids, alcohol. So
there are treatments that are incredibly effective.
And in the States now, there's a movement to
legalize that treatment. And in Texas, I know
they're really pushing forward. So hopefully,
eventually, in a positive way, some of the American
influence will reach the UK there. But I mean,
again, how many veterans are we going to lose
in the process while this drags its feet because
there's so much opposition from drug companies
that are like, well, hold on a second. If you
heal people from addiction, then we're not going
to be able to sell our psych meds anymore. So,
you know, whether it's CBD or MDMA led therapy,
the FDA is just hammering them because they're
getting paid behind, you know, behind closed
doors to put as many roadblocks as possible for
these holistic healing modalities. Just to call
back on something you said earlier about and
picking up what you said there as well about
how, you know, art can kind of educate and film
can kind of educate. In the UK, we have. little
to no relationship with opioids. Yeah. And, you
know, we hear Oxy mentioned on films and all
of that, but obviously it wasn't a crisis that
really hit here at all. And I think we spoke
about it when we first met, the show Dope Sick.
That educated a lot of people here on what the
opioid crisis actually was. in the states um
and um since then there's been a couple of shows
about it and yeah and and as you said it if you
it can be it can be a good thing it's entertainment
yes it's slightly fictionized yes but by pulling
on those those stories and educating people it
can just give um people a little bit more um
yeah highlights it a little bit better for people
well it's crazy because i saw it firsthand so
i was in florida In Broward County, when the
opioid crisis really blew up, so we're talking
about the OxyContin, the prescription painkillers,
and I would be in a doctor's office. I remember
one time I had some sort of sinus infection that
wouldn't go away. When I was working then, the
fire station probably had black mold. I'm thinking
about it now. It was a disgusting place. And
just waiting for like an hour and a half and
all these pretty -looking women. rolling their
little suitcase full of samples would go in and
see this doctor. I'd be sitting there going,
what the hell is going on? You know, I mean,
none of us have gone in yet. And this is a room
full of people waiting. And then my wife at the
time, she was working for this physician who,
thank God, she had a bad feeling about it and
got out. But he was one of the pill mill physicians,
right? In prescription. She said, yeah, we keep
getting these people from New York and, you know,
all these other states coming in. to see him.
And then I have to mail these prescriptions out
because at that point, no one thought that, you
know, the doctors would be part of some fricking
prescription drug ring. So, you know, watching
dope sick, I mean, parts of it I've witnessed
literally with my own eyes, but that's so good
to hear about the UK, but what's the difference?
The UK is not a profit -based system where their
doctors are peddling pills, where there's commercials
on the television saying, ask your doctor for.
And this is a really important part of the whole
conversation. You're talking about the working
class town. You've got towns in America that
had mining, that had the steel industry, that
had cars, that then went overseas and left a
massive void in those parts of the states. Now
you've got poverty. You've got fragmented relationships.
You've got mental health struggles. Then this
legal painkiller comes in. Then the pill mills
are shut down. Now, you know, the cartels are
bringing in the black tar heroin. And that's,
you know, how you end up with this crisis. But
it was all initiated deliberately because that
story was true. I mean, all the things about,
you know, the people that were in the government
that went, you know, then worked for Purdue Pharma.
You know, they were deliberately targeting these
doctors and pushing these strengths higher and
higher and higher. hiding the fact that it was
highly addictive. And I've pulled sheets over
so many people from opioid overdose in my career
as a firefighter paramedic. So I get to see that
from different lenses. And yeah, that's, again,
a small group of people profiting from the masses.
And the fact that people can sleep at night knowing
their products have killed millions of people
now shows the mental health crisis in those positions.
prime ministers presidents you know ceos that's
why you're like this person seems great because
they fucking are crazy how could you sleep at
night knowing that you lied about weapons of
mass destruction knowing that you turned your
head to what's going on in gaza whether you know
that your tobacco is killing eight million people
around the planet so this you know the fact that
the uk doesn't have it just illustrates how predatory
it was here in the u .s Yeah, yeah, definitely.
And, you know, obviously, as you said, we get
protected because we do have a NHS system, which
does work differently. But, you know, my dad's
registered disabled. If that had come here, he's
tried every painkiller. I have no doubt that
he probably would have tried. oxy or if that
had come here but as i said luckily we do have
those systems i did actually see a um i think
it was a a podcast or a twitch where um um um
the uh oec aoc uh alexander what's the uh oh
that that news new york woman the senator Yeah,
I see her talking to some English people and
they were explaining how prescriptions work here
and how you can just go see a doctor. And it
did look like it was blowing her mind that we
have that system where everybody can just go
see a GP. You know, if you need the drugs and
you can't afford them, you don't have to pay
for prescriptions and stuff like that. And it
does make you a bit proud when you feel it. But
again, as we said. it can't be allowed to fall
um which uh yeah which governments do seem to
make it harder and harder for it not to unfortunately
well i truly believe that with this awakening
that's happening you know that we are gonna initiate
the the beginning of the turn because it is in
that situation it is an incredible Incredible
system. And if you look, I think it was the Times
put out a side -by -side comparison a few years
ago because the Americans are like, oh, well,
the tax is crazy in the UK. And if you look at
side -by -side, it's even worse now. Like here,
no one has insurance where you just pay a $10
copay anymore like we used to 20 years ago. Now
you have what's called high deductible where
you don't get any coverage until you reach like
$8 ,000 and then they'll start paying some of
it. But side by side, you know, it's a lot cheaper
in the UK. Yes, it comes out in taxes. But my
dad was in the hospital a little while ago. He
threw a clot after a knee surgery and was in
there for days. And then they were like, all
right, here's your pills. Bye. That's it. That
same stay and surgery and all those things in
America would have left him with tens, if not
hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. Yeah.
It's insane. As I don't know the stats, obviously,
but we hear stuff here that more people are made
bankrupt in the States by getting cancer or any
other sort of long -term illness. And it's just
a thing you don't have to think of here. If you
get cancer, your view here is to try and overcome
it, not am I going to get kicked out of my house.
Which is not very good for healing. Yeah. So,
yeah, I mean, and, you know, it's an incredibly
privileged position we have in the UK and other
areas of Europe to have that. But, yeah, maybe
it isn't appreciated as much as it should be
a lot of the time. Yeah. But it's just, again,
it's that support. If you're going to have that
system, you've got to have, you know, a government
that's going to forge health in the country.
And it's the same then. If you've got all these
veterans that need mental health counseling and
you've got all these other people that are suffering
because nothing is done in the civilian population,
then you've got obesity, which is now magnifying
mental health challenges because now people are
depressed and anxious because of their nutrition.
It's spiraling downwards the same way as the
fire service here with this recruitment crisis.
And in Florida now, people have... turned it
around. There's a very progressive work week.
People are taking the money that was being wasted
downstream and investing it in more employees.
And now you've watched a complete 180 starting
to happen here in these progressive Florida departments.
It's the same in the UK. You take back... the
privatization. You just invest back in the NHS
and you start making these initiatives where
there's PE in schools and real food being served
and pedestrianized downtowns and get the British
people who were healthy for so long. This is
a blip, this recent thing. We were a very healthy
nation and turn that around, that frees up resources.
The healthy people go back to work. Now you've
got more beds for doctors and nurses. You've
got more counseling sessions for veterans and
firefighters and everyone else that needs it.
But the healthier the nation, the less of a strain
there is on the healthcare system. It's that
simple. Yeah. And as we said, the benefits, everything,
if more people are working, more money goes into
roads, public transport, everything. So yeah,
as you said, it does all come full cycle. But
yeah, I was going to sort of just pick up on
something else you said there about being healthier
and obesity and all of that. I think it'll be
something you'd like, actually. When I run the
marathon earlier in the year, year i run it for
a charity called ability bow um and um they're
a charity that um it's a small gym yeah that's
all it is for disabled people um and it was when
i was chatting to them that you know like obviously
gyms can be quite daunting places yeah so if
you're disabled it would be even more daunting.
And the machines are set up for people in wheelchairs.
It's set up for people with ability issues of
all sorts. And it's a really nice thing, but
I thought you'd like that, to be honest. It's
really catered for an area of society where you
don't even think how hard it would be for disabled
people in the gym. I had Javino, I'm forgetting
his last name now. He's that gym owner in Manchester.
I don't know if you've ever seen him on social
media, but he works. He's free workouts for anyone
that's from the special needs community. So people
have had strokes, autism, spinal injuries, all
these things. And he's just really, really fun
the way he trains people. But this is what's
so beautiful. When we were young, you might have
seen... some interesting you know special needs
people that were doing some cool stuff on blue
peter maybe but now and i think sadly war has
got you know we got to thank war for this the
adaptive community of all our veterans that came
missing limbs and you know get like mark ormrod
you know and then doing the invictus games that
group of men and women and children now is viewed
completely different than it was 40 years ago
So if you can have these amputees and these people
with cerebral palsy that are deadlifting and
rowing and doing all these crazy things, this
should be an easier time to inspire the nation,
more so than ever. Because, I mean, how can you
say, oh, I can't go to the gym when Mark has
got, I think he's a triple amputee. So he's swimming,
for example, with one arm or doing jujitsu. One
arm, that's it. So, you know, I think this is
a beautiful time to really, you know, elevate
everyone up because it's, you know, if that group
of people can show what is possible, then the
rest of us that are pretty much being given most
things on a plate can be just nudged back onto
the straight and narrow and start, you know,
owning our fitness, our mental health. And like
you said, then focusing on performance, using
it as the hope of a better version of yourself
rather than this. kind of doom and gloom sad
message that i think you know initiated this
mental health conversation but we need to get
past now like there is a better version of you
waiting on the other side of whatever your own
unique toolbox is yeah no it's it's 100 and as
i said if if the the initial issue could be framed
that way um that that that would be definitely
a start off or um to get people's make it easier
for them to talk about um but just just bring
it back to the film that's that's hopefully what
we we want to do with the film we want to start
the conversation we want people to see it and
um as i said this is a proof of concept so we
will want it to be a feature film and reach even
more people um but um yeah we um the obviously
the proof of concept is slightly of that tone
it is a drama after all um but uh you know we
I do think you're right. It is important that
these things aren't done through this lens of
all doom and gloom and no help. And that's one
thing we was hoping to achieve with the film.
Obviously the ending being that there is hope.
There is a way that we can move forward with
this. Absolutely. So talk to me about what needs
to happen. You've got proof of concept now. You
were kind enough to send me a copy to watch.
How do you get from there to the feature film
and how can people listening help? So the initial
thing is as a short film, it's doing what it
needs to do now. We're out in the film festival
world. We were in two film festivals, Brighton
International Film Festival and coming up with
Worcester as well. And they're both British independent
film. awards qualifying so we have now put the
film forward for its um consideration for the
biffers and hopefully we'll do well there so
as a short film it's performing kind of how it
wants to do it but there is only so much reach
for that as the proof of concept is also working
is that um you know if we can take this forward
to a feature um and we can say okay this is what
this is how the feature film is going to look,
but it's going to have more threads. It's going
to have more of this. Then we'll be able to make
the film as a feature film and reach more people
and, and move forward there. So anyone listening,
you know, if, if, if there was a way of helping
us raise the money or get into the studio system
and get this film in front of the right eyes,
that could all help. And, you know, if, if. When
we do release it, reviews on IMDb always help
more than you can know. We've got very positive
reviews on it of everyone who's seen it. So,
yeah, that'll be it for the moment. If anyone
is listening who can help us take it to that
next step, that'll be great. And we're sharing
it to a lot of people here. Obviously, the issue
with our film is it is a drama. Yeah. And it
goes back to this capitalist nature that we live
in. A lot of distributors and funders have loved
the film, but they're only really interested
in horror or action or the films that make money.
And, you know, that is always going to be an
issue because, you know. this is a business at
the end of the day and people are going to invest
in stuff that is guaranteed to make them the
money back and that is those genre films and
unfortunately a drama that highlights a social
issue is always going to be a little bit more
risky than the other money making genres should
we say but That's what we're hoping that there's
going to be the people out there who want to
take the risk and, you know, help us take it
to that next level. And we believe there's an
audience for it. So hopefully watch this space.
We're speaking to a lot of people. And as I said,
anybody who hears this who believes they can
help, please, please get in touch as well. But
yeah, that'll be the next steps to the film.
That's about the third time I've heard someone
say that. horror is the most demanded genre at
the moment why do you think that is that that's
always been the case um and um you know that
is always going to be a challenge that you have
to overcome if you are making any drama and that's
not just someone you know independent like myself
uh studios will be the same um you know when
they put a film out that's you know, slightly
more probably award -led or drama -based or social
conscience. They're always going to have those
challenges that you're not going to have the
audience for them as much. But with horror, it's
always been the case. A, because you don't need
any stars to make it. You don't need, you know.
Horror fans don't care if, you know, they know
the lead or if it's Brad Pitt. You know what
I mean? They don't care. They're going to be
scared. So that genre can be made at sort of
a kind of a cheaper level. And it's always going
to have that audience of people just wanting
this. It's kind of basic, right? Everyone likes
being scared, jumping out and making people jump
and all of that. And if they're going to cinema,
most people are looking for a good time, not
a time where they've got to think or, you know,
actually start a debate. So horror is always
going to be the most in -demand genre because
of that. But hopefully, you know, there is the
audience out there for the right people. And
yeah, it's just finding it. But it does take
a little bit longer, unfortunately. That's always
been the case. And it's just a challenge that
we're left to overcome, like every other filmmaker
on the planet. What's interesting, because I've
actually, one of the groups that I've, a friend
of mine who's kind of in the horror world, he
was working on The Walking Dead a lot in the
makeup side. um that's the group that he's been
trying to reach out to and as i can learn more
about that whole area i didn't realize that stephen
king also wrote shawshank redemption and the
green mile but in that you know but those two
human stories i wouldn't put running man in there
with those but uh you know you've got this very
violent you know horror genre but then he's written
some beautifully humanistic stories and the life
of chuck is another one from from a horror director
so you know it's interesting how that world you
know i look at that world maybe that would be
the good one to help with mine because you need
that rawness that is the gore because You know,
the darkness of the world that we inhabit, you
can't Disney -fy that shit. You just can't. You've
got to make it, you know, dark because it is
dark. But then that human side is like, well,
you know, they're also, they, I think, are dying
to make something else because all they do is
teenagers in a cabin getting slaughtered. They're
like, okay, for the love of God, can we write
something light once in a while? I'm curious
to see if we can use the horror world because
you don't, like you said, if you've got a good
story, you don't need stars. That's my opinion.
No one should be getting millions and millions
of dollars when there's some incredibly talented
younger actors or lesser known actors that will
be able to deliver just as good in a performance
for a much smaller role, but actually deliver
something that has the kind of stomach turning
element of gore. It's not a horror dude running
around with a chainsaw story. It's actually a
story that is occurring down the street from
where you live, which I think is even more terrifying.
Yeah. Well, I think that has definitely happened
in recent years. There is always going to be
the part of horror films, especially that do
the cabin in the woods, people getting slaughtered.
but if you look at there's a lot of horror in
definitely in recent years that has merged that
social commentary versus um that the horror element
so if you look at like stuff like jordan pelle's
doing like get out stuff like that uh films like
us um i'm just trying to think of other horror
films recently that have that that there was
a film called um relic I believe it was. And
it was, it was not kind of a monster film, but
it was actually about losing a parent to dementia
was the under current, the undertone from a PTSD.
There was a film many years ago about PTSD, but
it was called Jacob's ladder and it was kind
of done as a, a horror movie. So, so. it's definitely
possible to merge the two and because that whole
audience is so widespread when it does happen
they do that they do love it even more um and
um uh i i watched a film uh if if the film weapons
uh which is at the box at the moment yeah yeah
i mean you That's got a lot of undercurrents
of grief, of alcohol, of drugs and how we're
not in control of, you know. So there's all these
underlying elements to horror that can be used
for the audience. And because, as you said, because
they don't need the big stars, because they don't
need the big budgets, whole audiences are usually
very open to... to fit to feeling a new experience
and looking deeper into it um but it it does
take some doing unfortunately to merge the two
and um not getting the message lost um and that's
why i mentioned people like uh jordan peli uh
jordan pills i um who does have this um ability
to uh keep both those things on track um i mean
i i would i would highlight and champion the
film get out till the end of time i i thought
it was amazing from the day i see it to the day
and there's still bits i watch on it now and
go ah yeah you know so and i just suddenly get
realized what was being said there uh picking
new bits out every time so so yeah there's definitely
the way to merge the two and um and i think that's
where the um many filmmakers do love horror that
it does have so many areas that you can explore
absolutely Well, I want to throw some closing
questions at you before I let you go. I can spit
that sentence out. The first one I'd love to
ask, is there a book or are there books that
you'd love to recommend? It can be related to
our discussion today or completely unrelated.
Oh, that's a good one. So books I like, I do
like one's... that have that underlying message,
should we speak, say. I mean, most of the books
I read are usually boring filmmaking biographies
and stuff like that. But, you know, I love The
Beach. I think The Beach is a fantastic book.
I'm rereading that again as we speak, which is
why that one's on my mind. What do you think
about the film of that? Because I love that.
I love the book, the Alex Garner one. It's hard
because, funnily enough, because I was reading
the book again, I did stick the film on again
the other day. Danny Boyle will always be my
hero to the end of time. But the second half
of the film doesn't quite work for me. I don't
think it works as well if he's not English, not
British, because there's that whole the Americans
are coming thing. Well, if the leader's American,
you've just lost that completely. Yeah, that
always does feel like an odd choice, to be honest.
And, yeah, and obviously being a Brit who's travelled
Thailand as well, the book always did have a
little bit of relationship with me, especially
as I read that. when traveling around Asia as
well. So yeah, again, I would never say anything
bad about a Danny Boyle film. It's just, I don't
have that in me, but I do prefer the book. And
another book that I always go back to, have you
ever read Brighton Rock? I haven't, no. Yeah,
Brighton Rock is a fantastic book about... crime
in brighton i think it was 19 like 1930s time
um but the um as evil as the lead character is,
he's, he's very religious. And so is the girl
he's dating as well. And it, it just, that, that's
a fantastic book. I always love that. But yeah,
it's a question that's thrown me to be honest,
but from, from, yeah, it's a more recent, that's
the two books I'd always go back to. The Beach
and Brighton Rock from a fiction point of view.
I am actually writing a book myself at the moment.
So I'm trying to sort of stay away from too many
comparisons, which just to keep my mind a little
bit clear. Which genre? I won't go too deep,
but which genre are you writing? It's crime thriller.
So it's... The Beach Meets Savages is my sales
elevator pitch. But yeah, it's very crime thriller.
I've never written a book before. So this is,
so screenplays, I... find quite comfortable with
this was way out of my comfort zone but I've
really enjoyed the process of it to be honest
because maybe when you know being a filmmaker
when you write a screenplay you put pressure
on yourself for it to be good because I'd never
written a novel that pressure was completely
gone and you're kind of allowing yourself to
be a bit shit really and just get it out and
you know and be quiet quite freeing so i've really
enjoyed the process of that we get into more
of an edit in stage now so um yeah that's that's
going to be where it starts to become a bit serious
but um yeah really enjoyed the process of that
i'm doing the opposite at the moment i'm taking
kinder and i'm writing the pilot's already written
and it's out and about but i'm writing the rest
of the script now and it's funny because you
realize how different those two are you know
you've got a kind of almost narration element
to a book But now all of a sudden it's either
in the scene that they're in or you've got to
weave that into dialogue now. So it's kind of
fun to get to do a completely different genre
and take this one format and be like, okay, well,
that's his inner monologue. Well, how can I get
that out into just the scene now? So, yeah, I
can see how that would be challenging doing it
in the reverse as well. You've always written
the dialogue and the scenes and now. Now you're
having to create the entire world purely through
narration and the scenes in a novel setting now
instead of an actual screen. Yeah, it's just
what you're comfortable with as well, isn't it?
But I think as long as you just keep telling
yourself that storytelling is storytelling, be
it visual or be it on the page. And, you know,
there's rules and ways you can do that. So as
long as you just keep saying, well, I'm telling
this story, you can't really go wrong, to be
honest. So, yeah, good luck with the screenplay,
mate. As I said, it is a different way of telling
a story because you do have to think visually
then. And as you said, not in a monologue. Yeah.
Exactly. Well, you told me about some of the
films that you recommend. What about documentaries?
Documentaries. Right. Okay. So I'm going to have
to get my mind back here. I'll go blank when
I'm on the spot. Documentaries I've watched recently.
I did watch the Woodstock 99 one on Netflix.
That one threw me a little bit. The reason being
is, I mean, it's a great documentary if anybody
sees it, but one of the things that I did notice
about it, and it threw me back to 1999 and how
bad the culture was back then at festivals like
that. And it wasn't as shocking as it was thinking
back when you was at festivals. how easily that
powder keg could have been, um, lit at that time.
Um, so yeah, so that one for me a little bit,
um, there's a, um, documentary I always love,
um, which is, um, uh, just remember the name
of it now, uh, imposter. Have you seen imposter?
Um, I don't know if I have actually. Imposter
is a, um, yeah, the story of a, uh, A kid went
missing. And then years later, a French Albanian
kid who looked nothing like the kid that went
missing said he was the kid and it was all accepted.
But it's the narrator of the documentary is the
imposter. He basically admits to it in the first
few moments. So I do love that one. And if you
want a mixture of the two, of a documentary and
a film, then the film called American Animals,
I absolutely adore. Brilliant. I haven't heard
any of those recommended before, so I'll have
to look them up. The other few documentaries
I really did like, and again, it was always stuff
that you could relate to. As a kid. I remember
going to Florida when I was a kid and going to
SeaWorld, yeah, and seeing Shamu do the big dives
and all of that and being blown away by it. And
then years later I watched a documentary called
Blackfish. Oh, yeah, that kind of made me regret
ever going to SeaWorld, weirdly. So there was
that. Senna is a great documentary. Amy about
Amy Winehouse and I think all by the same director
the Diego Maradona one I thought was great as
well I watched the Maradona one that really was
because again you know especially if you're British
or you're thinking of as a hand of God and this
coked up you know lunatic on the field but then
you look again generational trauma and his upbringing
and lo and behold of course you know this young
kid is and really really rough you know childhood
and then he's thrust into stardom and you know
expected to perform and you know you see this
downward spiral but um the uh oh my goodness
what was the other one you just mentioned oh
yeah blackfish I took my dad to see the Diego
Maradona one because even though my dad couldn't
get over the hand of God, it was his favourite
footballer of all time. So we went to the cinema
with a Q &A with the director to see that one.
And yeah, it's a great film. And I think a lot
of those ones I mentioned, I believe are the
same director. Senna, Amy and the Diego Maradona
one. You mentioned blackfish as well. One of
my friends was on the crew that responded when
the orca ate the trainer. They were the station
next to that. So this is the other side of it
too. You've obviously got the animals in captivity
and it's undeniable. I mean, this is common sense.
This is a creature that roams the oceans and
it's in a swimming pool. And then you add these...
humans around it and then there's a tragedy and
now the local responders have got that in their
heads for the rest of their lives so so yeah
that that i was really glad to see that because
i know that you know sea world organization does
some good when it comes to environmental elements
but you can still have a great theme park but
not have blooming orcas for crying out loud have
smaller fish and all that stuff but there's a
certain point where like this is just unethical
now Yeah. One thing that I haven't finished watching
it yet, just a timing issue, but there is a documentary
on Netflix at the moment about Grenfell. Yes,
very good. I've seen it. Is it good? Is it? Yeah.
I like the, I think I watched like the first
half of it. Um, and yeah, it was, um, one of
those things that annoys you. Um, but, um, I
watched that and, um, for a bit of a politically
charged one, um, Louis Farooz, recent one about
settlers in Israel. Yeah. That's, that's quite
eyeopening as well. I'm going to have to look
that up. Yeah, I mean, that's something. Totally
understanding the backstory of the back and forth.
And I've always compared this. You've got mainland
UK. When I was young, the IRA were bombing us.
And I literally was right next to an MOD base,
my farm. So we would have to sweep the car for
bombs before we go to school. So again, very
visceral, very real. Not like I lived in Belfast,
but still the threat was there as a child. And
so, you know, understanding that there's the
British, you know, British soldiers, at least
perspective where they are thrown in and now
they're in Northern Ireland and they are being
shot at and blown up. And, you know, and then,
you know, the equal and opposite response from
from the IRA and some of the other groups there.
So there's this conflict and it was created by
people other than than those people, you know,
and they're left to fight it. But there was never
like a complete annihilation. I've said imagine
if there was a mainland bombing in England and
then the UK just. smited the city of belfast
off the map you know how long would the world
sit by before they would intervene and so this
is what's been so sickening about the gaza thing
i've i mean i've been talking about this for
over a year now i've had people that were you
know over there as doctors that came over you
know it's like at what point do you start saying
okay something is really wrong here and i know
finally now people are starting to turn you know
actually acknowledge it and push against it but
we're talking almost two years later 60 000 dead
of which 20 000 are children you know this is
something that needs to be talked about because
that's nothing about the you know the jewish
faith it's about these individuals that are committing
these atrocities under the flag of israel it
doesn't reflect every israeli person so that
separation has to be made yeah well you know
you can be against hamas and not blame the Palestinian
people and vice versa. You can be against Benjamin
Netanyahu and the IDF and not blame the Jewish
people. The two things can, again, you don't
have to pick a side. You can look at the atrocities
for what they are. It's been very annoying here,
to be honest, because obviously. Our prime minister
at the moment is Keir Starmer. It seems like
he's done everything he can to just not be Jeremy
Corbyn. So it seems like he's been on the wrong
side of this all the way through it. And he was
obviously, it seemed he was very scared at the
beginning to say anything against Israel and
therefore was live on radio saying, oh, yeah,
they've got a right to cut off water and electricity.
oh, come on. And now they're still on the wrong
side of it. They're slowly getting there that,
you know, maybe genocide's wrong. You know what
I mean? That's their position at the moment.
You know what I mean? Oh, yeah, maybe killing
that many people is probably bad. You know what
I mean? That seems to be their current stance.
But, yeah, it's, you know, you don't have to.
It goes back to what we said at the beginning.
It doesn't have to be a football match. It doesn't
have to be, you know, the people my team kill
is okay. And, you know, I mean, it doesn't have
to be like that. And, you know, if you was truly
an ally of Israel, you would have probably had
a word with them and stopped them from doing
their current course of action at the beginning.
But, yeah, you know. it's it's very strange it's
um yeah it's it's terrible at the moment and
um every day you just look on the news and um
yeah it just seems to be getting worse i've always
been so proud to be british you know and again
i i live here now and i'm american as well and
i think that you can you don't have to choose
like i'm both i've got two passports it is what
it is deal with it and i'm really a member of
planet earth i mean again i don't see Anyone
is not part of the same race, the human race.
And but I'm really disgusted with how cowardly
the British leadership has been. I'm even more
disgusted with America where we're, you know,
arming and supporting what's going on. I mean,
it's nauseating. But again, it's that again,
that censored voice standing in the middle going,
hey, you're both wrong. You know, innocent people
are being killed on both sides. But now, oh,
Jesus Christ, it's gone way, way beyond on this
side. And now you realize, wait a second, you're
bulldozing everything. This isn't about, you
know, retaliation of war. This is about ownership
of land, you know. And so this is what's so disgusting
is where is that courage of our grandparents?
that went over and this very thing, they threw
on a uniform and went and fought this exact thing.
How the fuck would they feel looking at their
grandchildren, great -grandchildren that are
doing nothing? In some cases, arming and supporting
the very atrocity that so many of those men and
women lost their lives fighting in the 1940s.
So this is what appalls me. It's not about the
nation. It's not about the flag. It's about the
atrocities towards human beings, regardless of
what nation they're in. And the cowardice that
I see now fucking nauseates me. Because if you
are, in our case, a man, you stand up against
things when they're wrong. Period. Point blank.
Regardless of religion, skin color, sexual orientation,
right is right and wrong is wrong. Yeah. No,
you're 100 % right. I feel like me when you watch
the Justin Theroux, Louis Theroux, sorry, documentary
about settlers. Yeah, you might feel that anger
building a little bit more because, yeah, I don't
think the settlers over there can claim any.
any good in them so to speak what they are doing
is is just out and out evil they don't even have
the excuse of retaliation or anything like that
well even i mean again bringing it back on us
if you look at what the british empire did and
all the damage it's done around the world that
sometimes is the origin story for some of the
troubles in iraq some of the troubles in you
know even you know the gaza story so you can
go back and back and back and realize well it's
their fault actually no it's their fault actually
it's their fault So the only thing we can actually
do is say, today, enough is enough. Again, this
multigenerational trauma, these dominoes, it
affects the household and the military family,
and it affects an entire nation in this particular
case. So stopping blaming the past and just saying,
all right, well. you know, what's happened has
happened. What do we do today? And that's, what's
really exciting is I think it was like half a
million Israelis were in the streets protesting
a few days ago. That is, and one of my guests
said exactly that. I said, you know, what is
it going to take? And he said, it's going to
take the Israeli people to step up. And I think
we're starting to see that now because they realized
it was never about the hostages. You know what
I mean? So hopefully we will see the end of this
soon, but it's just. just absolutely heartbreaking.
And after that, there's going to be a reflection
of, you know, South Africa and Ireland that stood
up right from the beginning. And then who are
the people like the US that was supporting this
until the very last breath. So, you know, there's
going to be a very powerful retrospective look
at the leaders and the cowards. Yeah. And as
I said, I don't think that being this soft and
weak on it is going to help. It's definitely,
you know, this isn't helping Jewish people or
Muslim people or people who see themselves as
Palestinian. In fact, this is just increasing
anti -Semitism. This is just creating Islamophobia
because you're not saying, okay, right, forget
sides. That is what is wrong. And yeah, it is
a shame. And as you said, just about sort of
our British history as well, I feel we've got
to stop being offended by it being pointed out
as well. You know what I mean? It's when someone
says the British done this in the past, this
caused the problem, they're not having to go
at me. They're not having to go at you. It's
just pointing it out that that happened. you
know i mean it's um so but you do get a lot of
people who seem to take offense at that and feel
like you know that's having to go with our culture
our flag or whatever it be um yeah we've got
to stop take we've got to take emotion out of
those type things i was curious a few months
ago about the impact of slavery on the average
british person Because you hear this thing about,
well, you all benefited from slavery. So I'm
like, well, let me see. At the height of slavery,
when the British were trading slaves with African
chiefs and all the people they were getting the
actual slaves from, and then they were going
to America and they were switching the slaves
with tobacco and cotton and all these other things.
So therefore, they came home with clean hands.
Let me see economically where Britain was doing.
And it was in one of our deepest levels of poverty.
So this is what we've also got to understand.
Some people made a shitload of money on slavery.
Some people gained a shitload of power through
slavery. But your average person didn't. And
you might argue, oh, you know, with the empire,
everyone kind of gained. But yeah, but the average
person didn't. In fact, the average person was
over there having to fight, you know, wondering
what the hell they were doing in this other land.
Stabbed by a Maori or whatever was happening.
So we've also got to say, yeah, it was our history,
but it wasn't the entire nation either. The common
denominator throughout history is when a few
people get together and they, in this case, set
people amongst each other. They do their fighting
for them and they are the ones that actually
gain. So like one of my guests said, when you're
in a medieval village and you've got the villagers
fighting with each other, where are they not
looking at the castle you know and this is exactly
it we got to realize that whether it was hitler
or netanyahu or whoever the tyrant is i mean
even freaking trump and biden on a lesser scale
these people are dividing a nation and setting
people against each other it's the same algorithm
every single time the few ruin it for the masses
once we have that awakening i think we really
turn human history around Well, it's the same
now, isn't it? You touched on it there. What
is it? How many people in the world actually
have the same amount of wealth as the rest of
the world? It's like, I don't know, 20, is it?
Where people like Elon Musk, the amount of money
he's valued at. I mean, what's the point in someone
being that rich? There is no point in anybody
being that rich. But you have a go at a billionaire
or say they should be taxed. You know, you'll
have people from working class backgrounds defending
them and saying, you know, oh, my God, how dare
you have a go at the billionaire? It's the same
now. And it goes back to what you were saying.
You know, slave owners are protected as British
people or, you know, billionaires are. being
protected but you know generally how how does
them having all that money really affect us now
it doesn't it's you know we're we're fighting
over something that we're not going to see a
share of it was hilarious watching the yo -yoing
of anti then support of teslas Originally, it
was a lefty, you know, hippie car. And then Elon
joins Trump and all of a sudden everyone wants
a Tesla Cybertruck now. Then he leaves and now
they don't want it anymore and they're burning
it. And it's like, oh, my God, really? It's exactly
to your point. Like this person that doesn't
give a flying fuck about you makes a fortune
on these electric cars. And you guys are crying
over whether you're supposed to have one or not.
And now you're burning it out of protest from
a person that doesn't give a shit. Yeah, that
you spent your hard -earned money on buying in
the first place. Yeah. One thing I will say about
the UK on that, we never really had that divide,
luckily. Elon Musk was always pretty much hated
from all sides. I've never met anybody in the
UK who's liked him on the left or the right.
So that one's been pretty universal. All right,
we're going to the closing questions. unlike
the people that we just talked about is there
a person that you'd recommend to come on this
podcast as a guest to speak to the first responders
military and associated professions of the world
oh yeah that's that's that's a good one so um
Yeah, there's probably quite a few, actually.
Obviously, my colleague who's gone through this
with me, Dr. Kasia Wilk, she's got some very
interesting ideas on how we can help all based
around choice, which I said at the start of this.
She talks about this stuff really well. And,
yeah, there's quite a few people who we've spoke
to throughout this process, veterans I know.
yeah, they would definitely be interesting people
to have on as guests. But yeah, there would be
definitely people who I feel could add value
from a first responder point of view. Fantastic.
All right. Well, then the last question before
we make sure everyone knows where to find you
in the film, what do you do to decompress? Me
personally? Yes. Oh, okay. Very, very boring.
I'm a cinema person. So that's my happy place.
We'll always go to the cinema. you know sometimes
well this week has been three times a week but
um that that is my decompression zone um a filmmaker
saying they go to the cinema a lot and watch
movies is probably not the the most interesting
answer but but that's that's what it is for us
um that and uh travel as much as we can i'm a
big believer in travel uh does broaden the mind
um so yeah um get out and do that as much as
possible How has the British cinema industry
recovered post -COVID? It hasn't really, if I'm
being completely honest. It's quite dire for
people in the industry. We've not really had
a film industry. that relies off its own back
here for many years. Yeah, that is one of the
big issues with the British film industry. I
think Ray Winston spoke about it recently. And
it's also why I spoke so highly about Danny Boyle
earlier. If you look at Danny Boyle films, they're
very British. I won't give away the ending of
28 Years Later at a cinema at the moment, but
the ending, I don't know if the rest of the world
are going to get it, to be absolutely honest
with you. And that's why Danny Ball has always
been up there for me. He makes films that are
very British for British audiences. However,
we don't have enough of that. If you look at
Korean cinema. you have a very distinct, that's
a Korean style film. French have their own style.
Even German have their own expressionism and
their type of movies, Spanish, everything. We
don't really have that. We make films that are
American and for American audiences. So we don't
really have our own sense of, you know, British
film. That becomes a problem that when the American
industry has issues, our studios have issues.
When nobody's making billion -dollar, was it
10 Marvel movies a year, that's nine movies that
aren't filmed here. So we do have those issues
that kind of hold over. So, yeah, if the American
industry is struggling, we're struggling. as
a crew point of view. Also, and, you know, I'm
very conscious of not being too politically charged.
A lot of our crews are from Europe. And since
2016, should we say, you know, their freedom
of work here isn't as strong as it was because
visas and whatnot. You're saying Brexit fucked
it up? Am I reading between the lines? Brexit
fucked it up, yeah. You've got to be careful
because otherwise you're just going to have a
stream of hate on the comment section. And that
goes vice versa. Obviously, there was a lot of
British crews that I knew that would go and work
in France, would go and work in Germany, in Bosnia,
wherever it be. That isn't an option as much
anymore because... Why are you going to give
a visa to, you know, a crew member that you could
get from Europe? You know what I mean? So, yeah,
so it hasn't really recovered. It's obviously
different for me because being a director and
a writer and a producer. I've always had to create
my own work. But yeah, many crew people who I
speak to who worked on Unseen Scars as well,
it's not a great environment out there at the
moment. There was a very funny comment on, obviously
I'm a BAFTA member, so on one of the BAFTA WhatsApp
groups, they did actually mention, someone did
actually say... The in memoriam bit at the BAFTAs
this year, they wondered if they were going to
have job security and mortgage repayments as
part of that gone but not forgotten. So, yeah,
it's not recovering well. But as I said, I'm
hoping a hard times create something. What I
will say is that's across the whole board. I
do think Brexit. I do think lack of job security
and opportunities and the world being as bad
as it is. I'm hoping there's going to be some
sort of punk revival, should we say. There's
always creativity is always born out of those
hard times. the music industry has been on its
knees for years. We're seeing a lot of kind of
punk bands kind of, and a lot of new music start
to spring up. So I hope the film industry is
going to follow suit and we're going to have,
you know, a lot more films sort of pop out of
nowhere and, you know, do that kind of, that
punk aesthetic of, right, we'll do it ourselves.
going that route that's what i'm hoping um it
seems to be happening in australia quite a little
bit so um yeah i'm hoping that britain will follow
suit it's funny because if you look at the fashion
um you know the music the interest of the the
young people at the moment it's the 80s again
80s and 90s and with some works for a store called
hollister here and all their clothes are what
we wore And one good thing about that is in the
80s was also, and I've talked about it a minute
ago, Blue Pia, where we were told, hey, there's
this famine in Ethiopia. So we're all going to
do jumble sales and bake sales and whatever.
And we'll raise money at school and then we'll
all send it as a nation over to Ethiopia and
help with the starvation. We need to refine that
too. So I think revisiting the AEs, that punk,
because I've said the ultimate revolution right
now, the ultimate rebellion is kindness, compassion,
community. That's the most punk rock thing you
can do right now is be a kind person. I mean,
it is. Have you seen the new Superbad film, by
the way? I haven't yet, no. There's actually
a line in it where she says you see... the good
and beautiful in everyone. And he says, maybe
that's the real punk rock. There we go. That's
actually a line for it. But yeah, I'm hoping,
yeah, that will be it, that the anti -establishment
becomes. the you know the being kind looking
after your brother and sisters and and all of
that that that that could be hopefully the way
forward but but yeah i am hoping for that bit
of revival it does seem to be happening in music
a little bit so hopefully it'll happen in um
yeah what do you call it um film as well When
you talk about the Americanization, I noticed
that a lot of the shows that I've watched recently,
the British ones, or started to watch in some
cases because I couldn't carry on. They are literally
mimicking the American show. So you've got, you
know, supposedly an English police officer and
she's running around with a freaking Glock the
whole time. It's like, you've already lost me.
A, your finger's on the trigger the whole time.
So no one's even showing you how to hold that
thing. But secondly, police officers don't run
around the UK. with you know holsters because
that's our gun laws on like our our teams are
specially trained and they're and you know they've
had them on the show so the moment that you try
and be like you know magnum pi on a freaking
british tv show you've lost the audience right
at the beginning yeah well funnily enough that's
um one of the things that actually led us to
make making unseen scars what we kind of wanted
to do was um uh was make it as british as possible
um There's many films about American soldiers
coming home. But it is, okay, it's the same issue,
but it is a different experience. And that's
what we was hoping to capture in the film, the
British version of that, rather than what you've
seen a million times, be it, you know, the same
issue, but for an American lens or for a British
lens. So that's what we were trying to do. Absolutely.
All right. Well then for people listening, where
can they learn more about the film and then where
can they find you online? Okay. Well, um, on,
on, on the film, uh, it's, um, the website is
our best starting point, which is unseen scars,
film .com. Yep. And that could lead you to our
Instagram and Facebook pages as well. it's usually
at unseen scars film but um yeah if you go through
the website you will find all updated news and
everything there and and yeah please anybody
listening who hasn't followed us again it means
more it means more than than you actually know
just that support of being following us or get
trying to see the film or whatever it be, um,
for any, uh, first responders, uh, listening,
especially in the UK, there are resources on
the website as well that can help help as well.
So, um, yeah, we, we, um, we'd really appreciate
any support we can get to spread this message
far and wide. Beautiful. Well, I want to thank
you so much. It's been an amazing conversation.
We've gone all over the place. That's what I
love about these organic long form podcasts.
But yeah, I mean, like I said, I watched the
film. I thought it was excellent. It really kind
of points at several topics that need to be highlighted.
Like you said, even kind of takes the Hollywood
out of the whole, you know, soldier with PTSD
running around like a psychopath was, you know,
what we were seeing a few years ago. puts that
raw issue in front of people. So, A, I urge people,
if they have the opportunity to watch it, B,
certainly go to the website, you know, like on
Instagram or those other areas. But I want to
thank you so much for being so generous with
your time today and coming on the Behind the
Shield podcast. No, James, real honor to be invited
on. So thank you very much.