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go to episode 323 of the behind the shield podcast
with joel totoro and wes barnett welcome to the
behind the shield podcast as always my name is
james geering and this week it is my absolute
honor to welcome back onto the show british military
veteran turned conservationist harry turner Now,
this time I was actually talking to Harry from
the middle of the rainforest. So a really powerful
and beautiful episode. And you can literally
hear the incredible nature that surrounds him.
And we dove into another spectrum of topics from
his continual mental health healing journey,
deforestation, poaching. his non -profit Emerald
Arch, and so much more. Now, before we get to
this incredible conversation, as I say every
week, please just take a moment. Go to whichever
app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,
leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single
five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,
therefore making it easier for others to find.
And this is a free library of well over 1 ,100
episodes now. So all I ask in return is that
you help share these incredible men and women's
stories so I can get them to every single person
on planet Earth who needs to hear them. So with
that being said, I welcome back onto the show,
Harry. Well, Harry, I want to say... Two things.
Firstly, welcome back to the Behind the Shield
podcast. And when I ask, where are you today?
You're probably going to have a cooler answer
than any of the other 1100 plus guests I've had
so far. So, yes, I'm currently on the plot of
land that we just bought in Ecuadorian Amazon.
I wasn't sure if I was going to have service.
So if it does cut out, I do apologize. But it's
just the. It's just the kind of name of the game
out here. But yeah, I'm in the Ecuadorian Amazon
on our plot of land, which is 184 acres. Amazing.
Amazing. Well, I want to get to that. We first
spoke in January 2024. For everyone listening,
if you haven't heard episode 878, then you need
to hit stop. Go listen to that first and then
come back and play this. So give me an overview.
January last year, what are some of the big changes
that have occurred, not only as far as the nonprofit
and the book, but also even your own kind of
a mental health and emotional journey? Yeah,
I feel like, so next month I'm going to be 32
years old. And for a lot of people, that's still
quite young. And for me, I kind of, man. Back
in the days of, you know, contemplating suicide
every day, I never even thought I'd get to this
age. But I've progressed a lot in my mental state
in regards of I now understand a lot of the reasons
why a lot of the bad things happened. A lot of
the times for me, in the moment, you don't understand
the importance of that traumatizing experience
or that experience which you just think is a
pain in the ass. It's everything is kind of like
making you and guiding you to do the things that
you need to do. If I had never, you know, you
know, I didn't necessarily fail at school, but
if I didn't like do very well at school, I never
would have been, you know, pushed to do the army.
If I hadn't have gone to Afghanistan, I never
would have gone to the Peruvian Amazon to commit
suicide. If I hadn't have had that epiphany moment
on the boat, I never would have continued to
stay. If I had never have done all these things,
I never would have been the person I am today.
And it's obviously taken me quite a while to
understand the fact that these traumatizing and
these moments that you really just truly think
are just negative can actually be very, very
powerful and impactful and pivotal moments in
someone's life. And so when you're feeling super,
super down, I now realize that then points in
my life are actually important and I should actually
acknowledge them instead of just brushing them
under the rug. Like we have up days, we have
down days. When I'm in the jungle, I have my
up days, but I do have some down days. But I've
found that just with, you know, since. the last
podcast my kind of viewpoint on life has changed
quite a bit because i've been able to kind of
like take the negatives and take the the bad
moments and kind of like look at them in a better
light i remember in the documentary and then
when we spoke you know you you went home your
parents came to visit um when you reflect back
now this is interesting when you go home Leaving
this extremely natural environment that we would
have been surrounded by, obviously not in England
as far as the Amazon specifically, but that much
more basic natural environment. Did you find
any level of jarring when you were dropped back
into the urban or the suburban setting? Yeah,
so when I originally left Peru in 2019 to go
back for the first time in a long time. back
to the uk which was captured in the documentary
i remember having extreme anxiety and panic attacks
it was december of uh 2019 and i remember going
out with my parents and a few of their friends
just to go get a few drinks down at the local
pub and fireworks were being set off and I could
not help myself apart from freak out. I've never
been one to love fireworks, but with my trauma
in Afghanistan, fireworks unexpectedly can really
put me in a bad place. And I just remember...
being surrounded by these loud bangs and like
looking at everybody just laughing and having
fun and being drunk and i've been sober for 12
years now so like i wasn't drinking then either
and i just remember thinking like everybody is
so disconnected like we we appreciate these loud
bangs and we have 20 conversations drunk with
all these people and Everybody's stepping outside
to have cigarettes. And it was just like one
of these things where I went back and was just
like, what have we become as humans? And what
do we see as normal? I've just come back from
a three day excursion. And it was one of them
moments where I didn't charge my phone for the
whole time because I didn't need to use my phone.
I didn't. miss anything apart from a nice shower
or dry feet. I was in the moment. I was listening
to the monkeys. I was bathing in the streams.
We were catching fish from the streams to eat
for breakfast the next morning. We found a few
species of snake. We were tracking different
tapir and different kind of animals like mammals
in the jungle. And I brought one of my friends
from America with me. His first time in the Amazon,
his first time, you know, going deep, you know,
off trail, just cutting and going. And as much
as it destroys the body, it enriches the soul.
And it's one of them things where it's like a
lot of people these days never, ever push themselves
to the point of breaking. That breaking point
for so many people is. is not being able to go
onto Instagram and not being able to kind of
like talk to their family for a few days. Like
my breaking point is putting me in the deepest,
darkest, most grueling experiences to find that
one gem of the forest. And that's pushing myself.
And I thrive off of feeling that. One thing I've
observed with all of the inputs that we have,
I've made this observation a few times here.
If you go to a restaurant in America, it is almost
impossible to sit down and not have TV screens
in the restaurant itself, flashing at you Fox
News and football and whatever the thing is.
And then you've got, like you said, the cell
phones. And I find that there is this buildup
of this kind of inner monologue, that monkey
mind just gets louder and louder and louder.
What do you experience after that kind of detox
from all the electronics, all the external stimulus
when you find yourself back in the rainforest
again? It's definitely a cleansing. It's one
of those things where you go out into the forest
and for the first few days, you'll want to take
photos of absolutely everything because you want
to be able to kind of say, look, hey, you know.
Lexi, I, you know, photographed this really cool
animal and I've taken a video and here we go.
But I find that when I go into the forest and
when I'm here, especially if I've completed the
majority of what I need to complete around here,
then the use of technology just goes down. I
get told, you know, I'm trying to fundraise for
my nonprofit. I'm trying to do all these things.
And everybody's like, Harry. We need content.
We need this. You need to film yourself doing
this. You need to film yourself for a minute
a day. A minute a day is nothing. But I, when
I'm here, don't have the time to film myself
for a minute a day because I'm so lost in doing
everything else. As soon as the sun, you know,
you have to work with the energy of the forest,
the climate, you know, the weather. And as soon
as the sun comes out after a few hours of rain,
I know that I need to go to find some snakes.
I know I need to like specifically go to specific
areas. And when the rain is happening, it's like,
what can I do now? You know, there's I find when
I go back to England and I find when I'm, you
know, back home in the US. I enjoy being lazy.
And and like you said, like when you go to a
restaurant, like the sound of. baseball games,
basketball games, different conversations, people
playing music on their phone or people, you know,
scrolling Instagram. Like it's just a huge kind
of like buzz and it's not the buzz of cicadas.
It's the buzz of electronics. And it really is
an interesting thing, you know, because there's
a happy medium. I can't live here full time all
the time. I have done that. And you can see in
the documentary that I. Did that for years. And
my mental health was not of the greatest. My
physical was pretty bad. Imagine drinking stream
water for, you know, like two and a half years
straight. You know, something's died in there.
You know, something's defecated in there. Like
I have got to a point now where my health is
like, I don't know, 89%. It should be 100%, but
it's a little bit less. um there needs to be
a happy medium when it comes to stuff and i feel
like a lot of places where you have the best
of everything you never feel that kind of like
um you never feel that kind of uh struggle but
you because this is a struggle but it's a great
struggle It's funny what you said about the kind
of white noise of electronics versus cicadas.
We have cicadas, you know, based on the season
here in Florida. And we have, you know, the crickets
and the bullfrogs and all these other things.
And I can sit on my back porch, which is a very
kind of tight suburban neighborhood. But a huge
amount. You'd love it here. So much wildlife.
It's kind of grown over the last decade or so.
All kinds of hawks. And I mean, just it's absolutely
stunning. I sent you a picture of that. owl that
came on my son's birthday one year um but uh
then someone will fire up lawnmowers weed whackers
etc because you know the problem with florida
in the summer is that we're constantly cutting
our grass and two similar sounds but completely
different to the soul the cicadas you know the
nature i find it soothing the moment someone's
weed whacking you know two two yards over I have
to go inside. It just annoys the shit out of
me. So you can even kind of see that contrast.
You can have a lot of noise somewhere that's
beautiful and it actually is kind of soothing.
You can have a lot of noise in the middle of
a sports bar and you kind of want to throw a
television through a window. For sure. I have
that issue here. This issue that I have in the
Amazon is based around oil companies. Oil companies
in the Ecuadorian Amazon especially are the number
one destruction of this place. I just recently
went to an oil spill where they said they had
cleaned it up. I went in. I went to the front
gate. I told them that I was like a journalist.
You know, I made up some bullshit story just
to try to get in. And they were like, nah, like
our boss is on holiday. And the reason he's on
holiday is for the fact that. he doesn't want
to be in contact with anybody because this oil
spill is going to cost him his job if it's not
done properly oil spills happen all the time
here so i was like look i can't go this route
which way can i go so i jumped on a boat with
the koyabeno rangers which are the rangers of
the reserve here and uh we spent nine hours basically
well we spent four and a half hours getting to
the oil spill and uh We walked around. I documented
it. I filmed. It was definitely not cleaned up.
And then we got back on the boat and we spent,
you know, another four and a half hours coming
back. And grueling day, you know, bushwhacking,
looking for, you know, horrible oil spills and
saw a little bit of death and destruction on
the way. And it was, you know, horrible. Oil
companies in this area are the number one reason
for deforestation and destruction. The second
is obviously people's farms. You know, people
cut down specific hectares for specific things
like growing fruits and vegetables, mainly cows.
There's people with sheep and goats around here
as well. But if you was to look at the destruction
of both of them side by side, the oil. Definitely,
as soon as it touches water, it disperses into
absolutely every place. If you used to look at
people with rates of cancer in this area, the
numbers have gone up dramatically since the oil
companies have been in this place. And they've
been drilling and dumping crude oil and all these
things. So I have these sounds that you can probably
hear right now of birds and all these things.
But I also have... the oil trucks that drive
past the road, which is, you know, not 200 feet
from my house. And it's one of them things where
as Emerald Arch, we really want to do everything
that we possibly can to help this place. The
problem that we have is funding. Funding is a
huge thing. And the second thing we have is time.
Oil companies right now are looking at a plot
of land that we were looking at recently. And
the issue that we have is that they're trying
to buy a small plot of land right next to where
we want to buy for double the amount that we
can pay. And so my relationship with local communities
and local families down here is extremely important
so that we can actually navigate that very slippery
slope. of, look, this for you selling to the
oil companies is great temporarily. If you sell
to them, you're going to have a lot of money,
but your family and the streams and the animals
and everything around you is going to be completely
destroyed, completely die off. However, if you
wait until we raise a little bit more money.
We will still allow you to work on your farm.
We will own the area. We will make a reserve.
We will do all these things and you will have
a wage and you will have the money from the land.
Like we're trying to work with people in a very
specific way here that isn't just a Westerner
or a Western organization coming in, but a friend
and somebody who wants. their health and their
family's health to be number one priority. Oil
companies don't care. They care about where can
they drill the most oil. Okay, Ecuadorian Amazon
is one of the hot spots for oil. Where can they
drill the reserve, which is just on the border
of the lands that we are looking to buy and the
land that we currently have. That reserve is
the biggest. area of oil in the whole area. If
it wasn't for tourism, that place would be completely
destroyed. If it wasn't for local organizations
wanting to buy areas of land outside of the reserve
to stop the oil companies drilling into the reserve,
it's going to get destroyed. If it wasn't for
local people and education, local people would
basically be selling to the oil companies so
that they could get a little bit of money quickly
and then the rest of their health is going to
go down the drain so the issue that i'm currently
going through right now is building relationships
with people but not forcing them to want to do
anything for money but wanting to do it for the
correct reasons are these ecuadorian companies
or from other nations A lot of this is Texaco
and Chevron. You also have Ecuadorian companies,
which are, you know, subcontracted to drill this
oil and to do all these things. But it gets distributed
across the entire world. A lot of it most likely
going towards the US. And the people here get
paid pennies. When I went to the oil spill, I
actually saw people trying to clean up and I
asked them and it was actually their land. You
know, they didn't ask for this. They didn't ask
for the oil companies to drill there, but they
were getting paid by oil companies to clean up
their land because of the oil company's error.
I didn't ask them personally how much they make,
but one of my good friends here who I've been
who I'm partnering with. and whose family's land
is the land that we want to buy he told me that
you know these people are probably getting paid
six hundred dollars a month to to clean this
oil and the detriment that that has on their
health is disgusting six hundred dollars for
a few months to clean up their land that they
didn't you know want they didn't want this issue
um and If you're surrounded by crude oil and
if you're surrounded by all of these different
things, then it's going to cause some problems.
But it's kind of one of those things where it's
like, you know, the local salary around here
is below $450 a month. So if an oil company is
going to give you $600, it's one of those things.
So it's another thing that we're trying to kind
of like negotiate on and try and figure out is
like, what can we do, which is going to... incentivize
these people but at the same time like not uh
overwhelm them what is it that's created the
need for jobs and what i mean by that is you
know most of us if you go far enough back in
our lineage we're living off the land was somewhat
self -sufficient didn't need a big corporation
to work for or you know that kind of thing especially
if you're talking about one would imagine someone
like the amazon so how was that shift from being
able to simply live off the land and not need
an air quotes job to this leverage that these
companies have now because these people are required
to earn actual you know money currency because
of the oil company's presence it's up the price
of quite a few things in amazonian towns um so
because of that people now need to earn more
money the two things that The two things that
Ecuador has that brings money is oil and is tourism.
That's it. The region that I am in, in Coyabeno
and the reserve, has an area which is full of
oil but is protected by tourism. I'm also near
the Colombian border, so that also gives a huge
issue because of drug cartels and everything
like that. Excuse the parrots. But the issue
that we have is that, okay, if you work for the
oil companies, you're going to get disregarded.
You're going to basically do all this hard, hard
labor. If you work for tourism, you need to learn
English. And because the majority of people coming
speak English. And so a lot of the people don't
want to speak English. They don't want to do
these things. So they go the route of oil companies
because it's the thing that they know the most.
It's the most local for their tongue. And the
education that Emerald Arch is trying to bring
here is that you don't need to speak English
and you don't need to work in tourism if you
want to protect the land. We want to, once we
buy this new plot of land, which is... 3 144
acres it's a huge plot of land and i need to
raise about 1 .3 million just for that land alone
the thing that we are going to do is we're going
to make park rangers i would love to employ female
park rangers because a lot of the times around
here it's like a more masculine job you know
go out and do this but the amount of women out
here that actually want to go out and do cool
things and be a park ranger or be a guide or
be something it's one of them things where like
me and my wife and my team of Emerald Arch have
sat down and we've said like, we want to do what
we can to help the local community members. We
don't want to come in as Westerners with our,
you know, light colored hair and our light colored
skin and basically be the bosses. We don't want
to do that. We weren't born here. This is not
our land. This is their land. They know it best.
So who better to run the ranger program than
local people? And if they don't want to learn
English, like that's completely fine. I don't
want to force somebody to learn a language. When
I was at school, I was kind of forced to learn
French at one point and I couldn't stand it because
I didn't have the incentive to learn French.
I then got told that I'm too stupid basically
to speak another language. So they did extra
English and extra maths and, you know, all this
other crap. But it's one of these things where
it's like, I want to empower people here to do
the things that they want to do, but give them
the opportunity. Everybody here wants to protect
the forest. That's the thing. But they just have
a more incentivized plan from the oil companies
because it's more cash in their pockets. Well,
it's interesting because there's two contrasts
in my mind when you're saying that. Firstly,
I've spoken to a few people when the kind of
backstory of Somali pirates comes up and sea
spirit is another good place to kind of learn
this backstory. You hear about the overfishing
of the seas of Somalia and all the fishermen
that were able to make money and feed their village
and feed their family. you know, the ability
to fish went away. I mean, these mega, you know,
ships are coming in and trawling and there were
hardly any fish left for anyone to actually,
you know, bring home that they've been doing
for arguably hundreds, if not thousands of years.
And so then you have this very judgmental, well,
these Somali pirates and, you know, we're all,
you know, applauding when they're killed because
they took our, you know, American ship. And I
understand that at that moment, a hundred percent.
But when do we take ownership of? The origin
story. And the same with this. If you didn't
have these oil companies coming in the first
place and then creating this supply and demand
and raising up prices, would you even have this
issue at the moment? No, you wouldn't. Conversely,
one of the best things that I've seen on my travels,
and this is Fiji, so it was developed. It wasn't
as remote as you're talking about now. But I
went during the coup. It just happened that right
when my girlfriend at the time, we had a round
-the -world ticket. A few days before we're going
to leave, they're like, oh, there's a military
coup going on. I was like, well, let's just see
what that looks like. Because, you know, I know
how things are reported. And in Fiji, they will
go in, they'll occupy the government building.
They'll sit down, they'll drink kava together.
And everyone knows kava kind of chills you the
fuck out anyway. So it's not like they're, you
know, drinking jack and fist fighting each other.
And they talk about it. And basically a shot
is usually never fired. So we ended up just going.
We said, screw it, we're going to go anyway.
But as you can imagine, a lot of tourism was
deterred. So we ended up doing the open, the
paddy open water dive at a place called Mike's
Dive Shop. And what he had done is as an American
guy, he'd opened a dive shop, but he'd integrated
the local Fijian village. So we, for example,
went on a dive and we saw Morgan's Wall and Morgan
was in the boat. You know what I mean? He was
the one that discovered it. And this is Fijian
guy was one of our guides. And then we went after
to the village and we drank carbo with with the
chief. And, you know, it was phenomenal. But
just like you said, the American guy came in
and created a business. But basically everyone
that worked with him, I wouldn't say even for
him. He integrated the local Fijian village and
the Fijian people and kind of. brought an ability
brought a way for them to make money so very
very different what you're talking about you
can with industry come in and kind of integrate
with another nation with another group of people
but there's a difference between working with
them and them working for you for sure i uh you
know as you're mentioning you know all these
things i have these thoughts in my head and i
you know i just said like i come off of a three
-day expedition and um I went out with my friend
Roger, who's from the US but originally German.
My friend Hilva, who's an entrepreneur here.
He has two lodges in Coyabeno. Very great Ecuadorian
dude. And then two of his friends, Samuel and
Jairo. Jairo basically earns $450 a month. He's
got two kids. He's got a wife. You know, he works
his absolute ass off. Samuel probably earns about
$200 a month. He owns everything that he can
carry on his back. But yet, these people with
very limited resources, these people with hardly
anything, are the happiest people I have ever
met in my life. Happiest. Jairo, we were just
like... We hiked and hiked and hiked all day
yesterday. We were trying to get to this one
point on the GPS, but it was swamp everywhere.
We're up to our chests in places. They were like,
where do we go? And I'm like, we've got to go
over here. We've got to do this. He's just joking
and laughing. I'm like, dude, this is serious.
We've got to get to this point. If we don't get
to this point, we're stuck in the middle of a
swamp all night. he's like ah you know it's all
good it's all good anyway we make a decision
to come back we get to camp we start eating oh
sorry start cooking and then hiro just gets in
the in the stream and he's just like you know
playing about in the water this is like a 38
40 year old man you know just like living his
best life he used to work for the oil companies
and i had a conversation with him about it he
was like anything i would do anything apart from
work for the oil companies he was like saying
how he used to walk with big drills and like
oil pipes and all these things six seven eight
kilometers into the forest so they could test
for the oil and he was getting paid 25 30 a day
for that and it's like that is an that's an hourly
salary in seattle you know because me and my
wife live in seattle like that is outrageous
but here he is you know cutting trails with us
scoping out new locations you know cooking you
know things that we've caught in the stream just
playing just having fun like some of the people
that i have met in indigenous and local communities
are the happiest people that i've ever met in
my entire life i had a conversation with hilva
recently um who's the guy who owns the plot next
door uh the entrepreneur guy you know he is a
great guy and i remember just being really down
one day um can't remember exactly what it was
it could have been anything to be honest um but
he said why are you depressed why are you sad
i was like well i can't really explain you know
i have complex ptsd i was At war, I have seen
a lot of death. When Khan was killed, that destroyed
me. I've been through quite a lot in my life,
which has now shaped me, but it still doesn't
take away from the fact that I'm not fragile.
Every human has a fragile point, and you can
be tough and tough and tough. And you can work
through it and you can do everything. But there's
always going to be that soft spot that you definitely
still have. And I said, have you ever had depression,
Hilda? And he was like, yeah, I think so. I said,
OK, well, what was it? He said, well, when my
brother died, I was sad. And I was like, of course,
your brother died. Like, that's not like that's
not something small. That's a huge thing in your
life. And he goes, yeah, but, you know. He died.
I felt sad. And then I realized I live in this
beautiful place with my beautiful family. And
I'm so grateful for everything that I have. And
my brother wouldn't want me to be sad. And I'm
like, dude, if everybody had your mindset, this
world would be so different. So different. What
are you seeing as far as the villages that some
of these men and women are growing up in? Because
if we kind of wrote down, you and I, okay, what
are the things contributing to trauma in, you
know, people our age, and obviously you're younger
than me, in the Western world, it would be everything
from, you know, unadjusted childhood trauma and,
you know, all these kind of things. And then
you go into war or the first responder professions
and all these other areas. That simply, you know,
a lot of it you kind of realize, oh, these are
all Western problems. So, you know, what are
you seeing as far as the community level that
these people that you're working alongside in
Ecuador have? Because one of the big things that's
glaringly obvious in the UK and America is. You
know, you have this household and then 18, get
out, go get your own place, you know, and then
they're struggling and they're drowning in debt
and trying to keep above their mortgage or their
rent. And you look at a lot of, you know, the
older style communities around the world and
you look at our history, if you go far enough
back, they say it takes a village. It was a village.
You didn't leave at 18. You know, you became
the hunter or the warrior or whatever it is,
but you were still in the village. And a group
of people helped raise your children. And there
were elders that you would, you know, respect
and listen to their wisdom and they were healers.
And so, you know, you see the Iroquois and some
of these other people, these other groups that
have been written about where, you know, Westerners
in the early settler times were actually going
back to the native tribes because the quality
of life was better than the cities that they
were from. What are you seeing in these kind
of upbringings, these incredible people that
you're working alongside as far as their communities
in contrast to the UK, the US, etc.? So just
to put this into perspective, Hilva is my good
friend, basically a business partner down here.
And I have got to know him and his community.
He lives in a small, small town called Pazibien.
There's 330 people that live in Pazibien. 240
of them are his family. Oh, my God. So he is
surrounded by family. His network is family.
If I have an issue, all I say in that whole area
is I'm friends with Hilva. Done. Whatever you
need. Whatever you need. So the community here
is very family orientated. Also, if somebody's
sick, everybody pitches in a few bucks because
that's the way it's done. It's basically as if
there is a constant GoFundMe for everybody because
it's like, how can somebody pay this $600 bill?
Okay, there's 300 people here. Each one of you
give $2. Done. The community that they have is
a huge net and a web of love. and celebration.
Ecuador is apparently known as one of the most
celebrated countries in the whole entire world
because if it's someone's birthday, they celebrate.
If it's New Year's, they celebrate. If somebody
dies, they have a celebration of life. You know,
like they celebrate absolutely everything. If
the women win the football match, everybody celebrates.
It doesn't matter who won or who lost. There
might be a few tears, but everybody celebrates.
everybody here is wildly connected to each other
um which has its pros and also has its cons you
know if i'm trying to date and 240 people on
my family then it's going to be a bit a bit of
a small pool um and i've you know i spoke to
a few people about that kind of issue around
here and they're like yeah like um you know i
tried doing this and tried doing that but it's
like yeah like that could be a a big con um but
yeah no it's kind of like one of them things
it's just like i i see the happiness in them
and they figure out the issues together as a
group of people it's it's a truly beautiful thing
and i love it when i bring my wife here because
they know who i am and they they bring her in
with love you know and And when I bring my friends,
I go, oh, by the way, you know, he doesn't speak
Spanish, but like he's a good egg. And they're
like, oh, OK, yeah, come on. Let's let's go and
have food and let's have drinks and let's have
conversations and let's go to the forest for
three days and thrash our bodies to oblivion.
And it's like, yeah, like here, if you if you
respect people, you are respected. Whereas in
a lot of other countries, because of the disconnect,
there's a disrespect. When you talk about 300
people chip in $2, it immediately reminds me
of the NHS, not the kind of dismantled NHS that
we see at the moment, but the core of the philosophy
of what it was supposed to be. And I've talked
about, you know, I love these conversations with
people that are in different countries, especially
if they've come from one and they see another
one. You know, I lived in Japan for 15 months.
You know, I mean, all places all over the world
have great ideas and great philosophies and great
principles, you know, based on their culture
and some of the solutions to problems. And the
NHS is one of the ones over here. You've seen
it. You heard it. Oh, socialized medicine. Like
everyone's goose stepping around the wards and
throwing up frickin, you know, Hitler sites.
It's like, no, it's just people taking care of
people. And when I was young, as you alluded
to, thank you very much. A lot longer than, you
know, long further ago than you were. You know,
it was it was you just that's what happened.
You got it all. You went to the doctor and you
came out. And even recently, even though it was,
you know, a worse experience as far as. The time
it took him, my dad had a knee surgery complication
through a clot in his lung and had to go to the
NHS hospital for a few days. And he just walked
out. Didn't have a bill that he's going to have
to refinance his home now to pay. He just left
with all this equipment and then all these kind
of follow -up visits and rehabs and all these
other things. And this is where I think there's
a huge disconnect again. If you look at the most
basal human model. There was no ancient tribe
that was like, well, let me see your insurance.
You got sick. You were just taken care of. And
this is one of the things I think the British
have done very well. And it's a shame they've
allowed the American system to kind of corrupt
it is at its core. We said we will take care
of each other. And the beautiful side effect
of that when it was running properly is now the
incentive is to make the nation healthy. So we
use the least amount of tax money. But what's
happened now is the privatized, you know, American
system has pushed its way in. And I don't know
if you've noticed this, but, you know, the British
are getting fatter and sicker, just like the
Americans. And it's tragic because it's a complete,
you know, abuse of the British and the American
population so that these drug companies can profit
from them. Pharmaceutical companies are also
another big reason that the Amazon is being destroyed,
which is a topic that not many people talk about.
But the majority of the medicines that we get
are from natural places. And the Amazon is full,
like we went out on a hike and we went through
some pretty rough terrain, ticks and, you know,
there's little mites out here called chiggers.
And there's like a bunch of other like bits and
pieces out here. Everything we need is in the
forest. If we want to cleanse our body, you know,
there's all these different things. There's a
garlic plant out here where it's just like the
leaves and the roots of garlic. You just chew
on the garlic leaf. Man, you wouldn't want to
kiss me afterwards, but like the, it does its
job. It eradicates the fleas, the ticks, the
mites, like everything. It cleanses your body.
If you are, you know, dehydrated, there's the
bamboo, there's the... different roots and vine
systems there's like small pockets of streams
that are clean enough to drink from like everything
here has a purpose and everything that the pharmaceutical
companies are doing are taking from here and
making it expensive so that you can feel healthier
um i i've been playing the long game honestly
in in the us i still don't have insurance because
i'm like you know what At this point, it's actually
comedy just to kind of like see how long I can
go without doing myself over. But it's it's it's
sickening. The reason why people stay in these
nine to five jobs with these corporate companies
and they don't pursue or follow their dreams
is because they can't afford their health insurance.
And I'm the type of person where I'm never, ever
going to stick to a nine to five when I go home.
Yeah, of course, I work and I earn some money
so that I can come back to a place like this.
Honestly, the fear that the government and the
countries put into people so that they stay is
sad. It's truly sad. It's funny you say that
because I haven't had health insurance for several
years. I'm actually just about to get it. My
wife graduated med school. in two weeks so hopefully
i don't get hit by a bus before then we'll actually
have insurance again but you know i left the
fire service left all you know the pensions and
the health insurance and all the other things
so i could do this but by doing this you know
i took a pay cut you know this is not making
a lot of money but i it's not the currency that
i care about i care about you know connecting
all these guests with the people that need to
hear what they're talking about and hopefully
you know making their lives better but it is
you step away and you're like what You know what?
If something happens, it happens. But until then,
I'm not going to be paralyzed by this fear of
not having insurance because what does it do?
It just is like, all right, well, let me make
double sure that I'm healthy. Let me make sure
I'm eating right. Let me make sure I'm exercising.
The danger of having this perceived safety net
is, all right, well, then I can eat like shit
and not exercise because I can get all the pills
and potions for a lesser amount. You think about
that, that's completely opposite from what we
actually need people to be thinking about. I
saw on your socials a few weeks ago, maybe, that
you got some test results back from your fire
service days and how you had specific things
in your blood. The same issue is here. When people
work for the oil companies, they have so many
problems when it comes down to later in life.
issues because of the oil the crude oil the chemicals
that they've been surrounded by and with yourself
you know i can't remember the exact uh stuff
that i've read but um is that detrimental for
future oh yeah for your health so pfas they're
called forever chemicals now i'm incurable optimists.
So the people that I've just had approached me
about six months ago, that paid for this blood
test of developing a probiotic that it looks
is going to be able to pull those out the human
body. So that's a beautiful opportunity where
someone can make some money on a very natural
medicine that truly will make a difference. So
I'm all about supporting something like that.
That's preventative, that's proactive. But yeah,
they were created by DuPont. So all the waterproofing
that you see, the Teflon pans, and then in my
job, the waterproofing in our gear that we're,
you know, sweating in and wearing for hours at
a time, the foam that we use to fight fire, they're
all riddled with this stuff. So it is directly
linked to a host of things from cancers to neurodegenerative
disorders. So, yeah, so it's it's terrifying.
Now, the other side of the coin is obviously,
again, making the body as healthy as possible.
So hopefully it doesn't succumb to this stuff.
But that is supposedly I forget. It's something
terrifying, like 95 percent of the world's population
has this in their body because it does not break
down, doesn't degenerate. So you've got. The
ability now, hopefully, to maybe remove it from
the humans, but then there's obviously this whole
environmental push. It's like, well, how do we
get it out of the environment? Because if they
did a test on you, I mean, you've been in the
West as well, even though you spent all that
time in the Amazon and these kind of remote areas,
even some of the guys that you were just talking
about that are indigenous to that specific area,
I guarantee you. Oh, for sure. Just the pollution,
like you said, from the oil company. There's
probably elements of it in there too. So this
is what's so disgusting. This is a very, very,
very, very recent problem. And you think about
the last two or three generations, how much they
fucked up this planet based on pure power and
greed. And as you alluded to, it's not even us.
It's our children, our grandchildren, our great
-great -grandchildren. What is going to be left
for them? It's going to be like the Lorax. Yeah,
of course. It's definitely scary. And a lot of
the people around here are worried that the oil
companies in the area and the people of their
family who are working with the oil companies
are going to later on have incurable diseases,
which will ultimately end their life. Yeah, which
is unacceptable because as you just were talking
about, you know, there's all this plant medicine
around you. And this is, I think. just to underline
your point a very lesser known thing about modern
medicine is all pretty much all the chemicals
that work are the ones that are you know duplicating
a naturally occurring substance all the ones
that are shit they just made up and those are
the ones you know three paragraph warning at
the end might include you know shit after death
and all these other things But yeah, but if you
look at the ones that are most effective, you
know, they actually derive from a plant or, you
know, insulin from a pig or, you know, whatever
the thing is. So the answer is in nature. And
this is what's so disgusting is, you know, why
not just allow that to be taken as modern for
its natural form rather than say, well, I want
to oppose any natural production of this thing,
synthesize it and then charge a hundred times
what it would cost to the consumer. Yeah, for
sure. No, I think nature is definitely a therapy.
For sure, it saved my life. And it's one of the
biggest reasons why we at Emerald Arch want to
bring on the Veterans Nature Therapy Program
is because we want to bring people who are struggling
to nature. And we want to continue to help not
just the environment, but the people in this
world who are struggling deeply. It's one of
them things where it's going to take a lot of
time. It's going to take a lot of energy and
work and effort. But ultimately, if we can save
one person's life from destruction to be in this
incredible place, just to kind of change their
mindset slightly. For me, and I don't know if
you remember from the previous podcast, but we
talked about how it only took me about 14 days
to really... You know, it took me about 14 days
to really realize that my life had meaning. And
after that 14 days is where I spent the next
14 days and I was in my element. And so if I
and if we can change the viewpoint of just one
person's life and we can save their life, that's
incredible. At the same time as saving this place,
at the same time of giving local people jobs,
at the same time of helping this place with reforestation,
doing scientific research so we can see how many,
you know, animals we have on specific lands.
Like, we just collected our camera traps a few
days ago. This place, you can probably hear the
road so close by. The land goes in that way,
2 .6 kilometers. And, you know, it's... It's
about 300 meters wide. It's a very kind of skinny
plot of land, but very long. So incredible streams,
incredible areas. So I put up 15 cameras before
I left in April. And we had giant anteater. We
had tamandua, jaguar, ocelot, giant armadillo,
nine -banded armadillo, tyra, gryson, which blew
my mind, short -eared dog. monkeys that are coming
down, and I could go on with paca, agoutis, birds
eating snakes, like all of these different things.
And this is just one section of land, which is
184 acres. Imagine what we can do when we protect
3 ,000 plus acres, which is going to be destroyed
by oil companies in the next two to three years,
guaranteed, because they're not going to buy
the 3 ,000 acres, they're going to buy about
40. And then what they're going to do is they're
going to dump the crude oil in somewhere in that
area because it's their land. And then when it's
rainy season, the oil is going to disperse across
the whole place and make its way down the stream
to the community of Pazibien. So the importance
that we have is not just saving community lives,
not just helping people with PTSD, not just protecting
this environment and all these people. It's a
combination of so much more. And a lot of people
in this world fear that leap of faith. And for
me, I'm not going to stop until it's completed,
dude. Like this is it. And who knows, we might
do a podcast in another two years or whenever
it will be. I can guarantee you there's going
to be change because that's my mindset. That's
my goal. And that only happened after I had that
experience and that love in the jungle. If I
had never had that epiphany, if I had never had
that moment of clarity where I thought suicide
is not your option. You have people at home who
love you. You have a great and bright future
ahead of you. All you need to do is make that
leap of faith. Say yes to things. Put yourself
in uncomfortable situations. And the most important
thing is follow your heart and follow the fire
in your gut. Because if you don't follow what
you need to follow, if your brain is telling
you to go left and you're fighting to go right,
go right. Because that right move will put you
exactly where you need to be at exactly the right
moment, which will make for incredible stories
and will make for memories that you'll never,
ever forget. If I had not... When I was in Australia,
for example, I left Peru because Khan was killed
by a poacher's trap. Devastated me. Actually
shook me to the core and broke me as a human
being. If I hadn't have gone to Australia, I
never would have had the energy to go back because
when I was in Australia, I remember speaking
to my friend Matthew and he said to me like,
what's next? And I said, something is unfinished
in Peru. Something is unfinished. I don't know
what it is, but I need to go back. I didn't want
to go back. This is a place where my son had
been killed. This is a place where I just terrible
shit. I needed to go back and I didn't know why,
but I followed my heart. And I went back and
then Keanu was there. And then because Keanu
was there, I was able to make. a documentary
which changed people's viewpoints and changed
people's lives. Not only that, but I found my
wife. She came to the jungle at the very, very
end of 2019. And without her, I never would have
been able to have accomplished this. And it's
like, if I hadn't have followed my gut instinct,
if I hadn't have followed my heart, who knows
where I would be. And I think that's one of the
things that I'm very proud about in myself and
in my life is that When I have a feeling, I go
with it. I have to, because if I don't, I will
regret not following my heart. Well, you mentioned
Khan, you mentioned Keanu, and you said that
there were us a lot, you know, where you are
now. Have you had any sort of interaction? Have
you been able to actually be there or are they
just caught on camera at the moment? These ones
at the moment are just on camera trap. I found
the tracks, I found the male spray territorial
marks, and I've been able to be close enough
that I know that there is a good amount here.
I have not found any with my eyes at the moment,
and I definitely have not... I found an ocelot,
which is definitely in need of reintroducing.
I think if that happened, me and my wife would
definitely have to have a talk because she knows
what I'm like. However, when I was on the plane
down here, my friend Hilva messaged me and he
goes, oh, I'm sorry, Harry. And I was like, oh,
no, what is it? He sent me a video of him going
into one of the houses on the property and there
was three orphaned kittens there. And I was like,
oh, don't touch them because I want the mum to
be able to come back if she's there. And then
when I got here, I saw all three. So I left some
food out for the mum. And when I came back the
next day, the mum had taken the two healthy ones
and left the runt to basically die. So now I
have a kitten that I'm looking after. It's not
an ocelot, but it's a stray cat. And we're going
to do our absolute best to make sure that that
doesn't reproduce on this land. has a way better
life than just a feral cat life. But there's
plenty of stuff on this land, man. There's an
incredible amount of diversity. And I think that
the abundance and richness of this place is going
to change many people. I want to continue to
bring people out here. I would love to bring
you out here if that's something that you'd be
interested in. It's one of them things where...
just even waking up to the sound of of parrots
and macaws and just being able to kind of like
be god this freaking horsefly keeps biting me
um just being able to kind of like be in nature
and just be surrounded by the beauty it's like
it's it's something not many people truly experience
in their life when you're talking about in this
case a veteran in crisis One of the things of
having so many conversations and a lot of people
on the show have been in that place. They really
have. And even some of the people that they're
not on here talking about their powerful mental
health journey. And we find ourselves there and
OK, that's another person that was struggling.
I didn't even realize. But there's such a powerful
common denominator with all of these stories
where obviously, you know, when people are hurting,
they want the suffering to stop. That's part
of it. But I think we talked about this last
time. This perception that they are a burden
to the people that they love. And if they just
remove themselves, then everyone will be happier.
Completely distorted reality. But people get
there because of this kind of perfect storm of
all the factors. It's never one thing. Oh, you
had that divorce. Oh, you lost a child. You know,
whatever the thing was, that was just one of
these things. So I can see how when, you know,
whoever it is, a veteran that, you know. whatever
background someone has that they are removed
from, as we mentioned earlier, this kind of white
noise effect of where they were currently, you
know, existing and they find themselves in the
Amazon and they have nature and they're probably
going to have exercise and they're going to sleep
deeper and they don't have these phones and these
social media things going off. And obviously
they're not having to go to work for that period
of time. you can see how you then start disassembling
all of those pieces of that perfect storm to
where they're able to think clearly and go, wait
a second, I'm not a burden. I've got some things
that I need to work through and I was kind of
angry towards my kids and whatever the thing
was, but I can start to see why that was the
case. And now I can have the ability now to work
on that. So what you're doing, immersing someone
into a place like Emerald Arch, I mean, it just
makes so much sense. There's so many different
healing modalities out there. And the project
I'm working on with my show, I want to bring
light to those. In fact, that's something I think
that I'd love to get you on as part of that project
as well. But when people find the thing that
resonates with them, someone might be like, I
couldn't think of anything worse than going to
the middle of Amazon. Okay, that's not the trip
for you then. Maybe ayahuasca or maybe MDMA or
maybe just equine therapy, whatever your thing
is. But there's so many people that if you can
just remove them from the nucleus of their turmoil
and put them somewhere where they literally,
you know, are totally in touch with nature, it
makes so much sense of that would, you know,
of course we use the word healing, but ultimately
would start stripping away all those contributing
factors that led them down that dark path in
the first place. Absolutely. And with the kind
of disconnect of modern and social kind of like
life, when you are in the jungle with somebody
and you are completely kind of like disconnected
from the outside world, the amount of genuine,
serious conversations that you have with these
people become life changing. And a lot of my
closest friends that I still hold dear to my
heart are the people that I met when I first
came to the jungle because I didn't have a phone.
I didn't have, you know, internet. I didn't have
any of these things. I had an experience where
we were all in a jungle together, all finding
cool and incredible species, doing everything
that we, you know, were doing, but genuinely.
not because we were doing it for social media
not because we were doing it for this or you
know trying to impress people we were there because
we wanted to be there and to bring people into
that and to be able to kind of like have them
deep conversations it changes people it you get
to know that true person and what they're genuinely
going through um you don't you don't need to
hide your secrets when you're in the jungle not
at all Well, I want to get to the book in a minute,
but before we do, talk to me about what's needed
for the purchase of the land, for the creation
of the retreat, you know, for anyone listening
now that might have maybe one of the pieces of
the jigsaw puzzle, what is needed so you can
achieve your goal, help healing, you know, veterans
and keep these oil companies at bay. Yeah, so
I've been networking a lot recently, trying to
figure out funding. Funding right now is the
most crucial part because of the fact that we
have a very limited amount of time. I spent the
last five years making connections with local
communities and local people so that they can
actually have trust in somebody like me and my
organisation. So right now, funding is extremely
important. um if people know anybody who you
know happens to have quite a lot of money and
wants to have a tax deductible kind of like get
away by doing something good then that's great
um i feel like the other thing that uh emerald
arch kind of needs at the moment is just word
of mouth if you don't have anything to contribute
to to the cause that's fine If you believe in
what we are trying to achieve and what we are
currently doing here, then talk about it to people.
That's one of the reasons why I love doing podcasts
is because I will be able to reach many ears
that I would never be able to reach. And then
their conversations will be able to go on to
other people. We have a new website now so people
can go on and they can check out everything now.
You know, that took a while to kind of get up
and running. And honestly, just kind of like
the experience itself, if people want to donate
and they want to come down, but they want to
actually see with their eyes where their money's
going, it's a completely doable and achievable
kind of goal. We have land now. I have a great
amount of connections down here. I have some
very close friends. And so any help in any way
is fantastic. But ideally, funding would be and,
you know, everybody needs money. But I feel like
if people genuinely listen to the issues that
are here and they genuinely want to make change,
the Amazon, apart from the ocean, is the biggest
absorber of carbon dioxide. This place is in
such. because of oil companies and deforestation
and fires and all these things, that if people
genuinely want to do good, just even investing
into land is powerful. For example, a hectare
of land is $1 ,000 here. So I believe my calculations...
Four hectares is about an acre. So even with
$5 ,000, you can save a huge, huge chunk of the
rainforest. And then when it comes down to saving
rainforest, you're then actually giving jobs
to local people that are educating themselves
more in why this place is important to save.
And also bringing people down here who are struggling
deeply. There's a lot that... conversation and
uh and funding can can do here for sure when
you say saving the amazon i feel like jeff bezos
needs to give a lot of money because he's used
that word to make a lot for himself it seems
like it would be a good fit for him to give back
if anybody's got any connects to him that would
be great but i know that his uh his money is
going elsewhere um and uh You know, I can't hate
on somebody for making money from, you know,
being very intelligent and doing all these things.
But I feel like with all of the billionaires
in the world, we could definitely make a difference
when it comes down to mental health support,
when it comes down to homelessness, when it comes
down to Amazon conservation, when it comes down
to just genuinely, you know, everything that
is a struggle in this world. I feel like that
is the... The thing that they could definitely
change the most, but unfortunately, it takes
a lot of good people to do the small things in
the world. And we're trying. We're doing our
complete best here. I am, like I said, incurably
yet angry optimist. And I truly believe that
there is the beginning, the cracks of a revolution
of kindness and compassion. I think there's an
awakening of... the corporate greed and some
of the things that we talked about. And I hope
that that's going to extend not only into physical
mental health in, in the developed nations and
obviously beyond that, but also in the conservation
side, you know, this kind of eye rolling about
the ozone layer, for example, I've always said,
well, just look at the, the quality of the air
in London or LA or, you know, Mumbai. You don't
need to worry about the ozone there. You can
physically see it, the trash in the oceans and
all these other areas. So for too long, we've
kind of been duped, almost like defending these
corporations. And I feel like now finally there's
an awakening. And I hope even the holistic healing
side will start protecting the Amazons and these
other areas from a medicinal point of view too.
So I hope the timing is right and that there'll
be people leaning into nonprofits like yours
to be able to help. Yeah, I hope so too. And
I appreciate that kind of confidence. I feel
like there are definitely people that are wanting
to do change. And there are many, many change
makers in the world. It's just that we need to
work together. One of the issues I found working
in conservation for the past 10 years is the
fact that when people or when one person does
something which is great, people in conservation
to some degree get jealous and they want to do
something great themselves and you end up actually
having kind of like not necessarily fights but
people are clashing heads because they're trying
to do good but they're trying to outdo each other
and so i feel like with a lot of these people
that want to do good if we just work together
we can make so much we don't need to outsmart
each other or do the next best thing Like, I
don't want someone to just like come up to me
and be like, oh, well, you did this, this and
this. So I'm going to do this. It's like, oh,
well, well done for doing something good. You
know, I feel like I have also done something
good. How about let's collaborate and let's do
something which works for the both of us so that
we can truly make a huge difference. But then
again, you know, throughout the world, jealousy
is kind of one of the biggest kind of like horrible
things that happens. It just kind of. It causes
issues. I see that even in first responder nonprofits.
And I'll get people say, and it's coming from
a beautiful place. I had my own mental health
struggle. I'm going to start a nonprofit. And
I tell them the same thing. Find a nonprofit
that you already like. Find one out there that's
been well established and join them. Be part
of their team. If everyone's reinventing the
wheel, there's so much wasted energy. So as you
said, collaborate. If you're already an established
nonprofit. then link arms with another one. And
if you're not, if you're someone wanting to do
good, then find someone who's already working
there. And then whether it's fundraising, whether
it's boots on the ground, be part of an organization
that's trustworthy, that's already established.
So you're not spinning your wheels and spending
thousands on establishing your nonprofit only
to kind of watch it struggle a year later. Yeah.
Yeah. The reason we started our nonprofit in
this area is for the, for the fact that we don't
see a lot happening for the oil companies here
and we don't see anything happening for the local
communities um me and lexi discussed you know
a lot about kind of like what we want to do with
our life and our future and um obviously making
a difference was the biggest thing and then when
we both came to ecuador together i had been here
before her but when we both came we saw a demand
that was not being met And that demand was respect
of the local communities and education on oil
and the issues and impact that it has. And yeah,
there's not many people. like us that want to
kind of work with conservation with mental health
with local communities with all of these things
combined and so if there are any other people
out there that like this story and want to talk
about it and if there are people that want to
collaborate on anything as well in the future
our ears are open um our doors are open we want
this place to heal um just like myself. I needed
to heal when I came to the jungle, but this jungle
needs healing now and it's our time to step up
and pay back what was given to me. I couldn't
agree more. Well, talk to me then about the book.
Oh, man. I'm not very good at writing. I feel
like I'm okay, but I didn't do well in school
for the fact that I just can't sit behind a screen.
it's coming along um i have a really great uh
editor and advisor and i have um so she's my
agent and and i have i have a story i have a
very impactful and powerful story um something
that kind of i want to be able to get out there
there's only so much that you can really get
in an hour and 40 minute documentary And for
me, like there's so much backstory to a lot of
where, you know, to a lot of my story where what
made me do this and how did I get to this point
in my life? And there's many whys in the documentary,
which is, you know, part of filmmaking is you
want people to be making questions so that they
keep watching. But I want people to understand
the whys. So I want to, and I'm writing my book
to talk about, you know, the jungle how it saved
my life why did i always love animals how did
i get to this point what i want to do in the
future stories about khan and keanu that nobody
apart from my closest fan friends and family
know about like there's so much in -depth detail
that i want to go into that this book i feel
is going to be powerful and also i want to not
just you know conserve like this is a great I
love living here and I love doing all these things,
but I want to make a living from being a public
speaker. I want to speak about my stories. I
want to speak about my mental health. I want
to be able to help and contribute to other people
who are going through something similar or just
struggling in general. I feel like my story can
be a light to many people. And, you know, when
the documentary came out, I had so many people
messaging me beautiful messages. And the one
that will stick with me the most was a lady messaged
me and basically was like, thank you for your
documentary because now I understand what my
husband was going through after Afghanistan.
Now, I didn't make a documentary to change. you
know how a relationship works in a different
part of the world but my struggle was able to
be captured so that other people could relate
to how other people in their lives were struggling
and that was powerful very very powerful so if
my book can go into more detail about that and
more people can understand why they're husbands
or why their kids or why their family members
or friends are struggling then that you know
once again i'm trying to make a difference i'm
just trying honestly james i'm just trying to
do good in this world and people that try to
do good don't really uh don't really uh win a
lot we struggle and struggle and struggle until
we get to a point of where we go you know i i'm
successful in what i've done but it took about
20 years to get well i mean firstly i agree i
think that was this the uh environment and i
hope it's starting to change now because i think
the people for example that were just standing
in the middle in a lot of these extremist years
that we've had that were demonized this is the
thing that the most um censored voice by far
was the voice of common sense for a long, long
time. But I think now people are seeing the bad.
So I hope that then is going to get people realize,
well, then what does a good look like? And it
is, you know, like yourself and so many other
people had on the show that are out there. You
know, a lot of them did serve in uniform and
then they got out and they're like, I need to
do more. And this is, you know, this is what's
so admirable. They're not paid to do this. They
decided to do it off their own back. But the
other thing is also storytelling. And I'm sure
if you look at, you know, again, the Ecuadorian
culture, there's a lot of that. You look at,
you know, ancient British, ancient Egyptian,
ancient insert area here. It was storytelling,
hunting and war and gathering and don't eat this,
but do eat this. And, you know, plagues and famine
and all these things. It was all told from generation
to generation. And I think we've really lost
that in the kind of seven second TikTok bullshit
that we've been exposed to. So this is where
I think there's a lot of power in long form podcast
and in documentaries and in books is when you
pull someone into a story. And this is what I'm
hoping with my most recent project. when they
get to the end of that series or the book, put
it down and go, I'd never thought of it that
way. And then, like you said, you leave them
with questions, not all the answers because no
one has all the answers. And then they go off
on their own healing journey because you've inspired
hope and you've given them a few tools so they
can start taking those few steps. So I think
there's such a need for exactly what you're talking
about. I appreciate that. And I think that what
we are both trying to do is just shine a light
onto, you know, anything is, you know, it's mental
health is a huge crisis in the world, in, you
know, in England. And even here, even though
these people are happy, like they're fighting
a battle with like, do I work with this oil company?
Do I do this? Do I do that? Like, It's a struggle
wherever we go, but if we can shine light on
the hopeful stories in the world and try and
bring something to local people or just to do
good, we're doing what we intended to do and
we're doing what we must. I'm just really grateful
that I have people like yourself and people like
my wife and my team and family. that support
me in the in the things that i'm doing because
trying to do things alone uh in this world to
make change is not easy and if you're trying
to do something alone in your mental health forget
it you need to have somebody whether you know
them or whether you just need to you know listen
to someone that has gone through something else
or whether you just need a conversation or a
friend or something If you try to do everything
alone, you're never going to win. You're never
going to be successful. The greatest thing, and
this is once again coming back to the Ecuadorian
families, the greatest thing is community. And
when you have community, you can move forward.
I wanted to ask you this early on. I'm glad that
we circled around. Elements of your journey have
included... you know isolation somewhat and obviously
some of it was you know this this incredible
bond you have with ocelots and other experiences
but how are you able to balance that community
element yourself with the uh the time on your
own in the jungle i feel like every person is
unique and for me i love to be solo and alone
but i love to come back to comfort And when I
am surrounded by people constantly, I start to
get anxious, panicked, losing my mind. Whereas
like my wife, she can be surrounded by her family
and friends all the time. And she might just
need like a break to watch Modern Family, you
know, but she can do that. And I can't. I need
lots of time occasionally to be able to just
go, you know what? i'm struggling i know that
i'm struggling what i need is a slight break
and then i go off into the forest the times in
the documentary and the times that i have spent
alone i spent a lot of time alone it wasn't easy
i remember one time i was cooking dinner and
i put on some music and i went to sing and my
voice cracked like i was a 13 year old boy again
because i hadn't spoke to anybody for four or
five days i hadn't opened my mouth i didn't need
to you know like i had drank water and brushed
my teeth that was the only movement that my jaw
did and it was like i went to sing and i was
like wow when did i last speak to somebody and
it was days and days and and you know after months
of being alone in the jungle my mental health
wasn't great Even though I was in the most beautiful
place in the world, I struggled because I didn't
have that community that I needed. However, with
moderation, everything is great. If I spend five
or six days in the rainforest here, just catching
snakes and photographing things and having fun,
and then I come back to my family, my dogs and
my wife and my friends, I am then complete. And
I feel like a lot of people... They need to understand
what works for them. The McCores have come in,
sorry. And what works for them can be different
than absolutely everybody. But for me, I need
to have lone time so that I can reflect and I
need to have together time so that I can use
what I've thought about and reflected on to then
make my... relationships and friendships and
and work kind of balance better i had the author
of a book the introvert's edge on the show a
few years ago and i remember him giving me the
definition of an introvert and extrovert and
he said everyone thinks that introvert is someone
who's just quiet he said what defines you is
where you get your energy from and i was like
Because that's me as well. I can be in crowds
and be fine. But as I've said many times on here,
I'm the person at a party that either A, I'm
sitting out in the garden when everyone's in
the house, or I'm just like, all right, I'm out,
peace, and I just disappear. And it's not that
I'm overwhelmed or having any sort of issue.
It's just I've hit that wall and it's like, all
right, I need to go and recharge. So it seems
like that's expandable. For you, it's several
days. For some people, it might just be walking
a dog for an hour. But I'm that same thing. And
if you truly draw your power from crowds and
from people in that community, then, yeah, you're
probably more of an extrovert, a true extrovert.
But I think a lot of us, a lot more of us are
introverts than we realize. And that, I think,
is one of the backstories for alcohol use. There's
a lot of people that think they should be the
life of the party, that pregame before they even
go out so they can be comfortable in crowds because
they don't realize that. It's actually normal
to not feel completely comfortable in a crowd
because going back to ancient humans, you know,
we weren't surrounded in this tiny space by,
you know. 300 human beings you know it's a very
abnormal thing same as being on stage you're
not supposed to be like everyone's watching you
and you alone so when you break it down it's
interesting that yeah the community is really
important but there would have been a lot of
times in you know ancient human lives where we
were foraging hunting whatever we would have
had time to just be on our own and reflect and
finding that balance in modern society i think
is is is hard you know you've got to really do
some self -assessment Yeah, no, that is definitely
interesting. And I've always kind of class myself
as like when I was younger, I class myself as
like the class clown. But it was honestly because
I was I was doing things just to get out of doing
things. And I would be the fool that got sent
out of class because I threw a freaking rubber
at a teacher or, you know, throwing pens or,
you know, just doing dumb shit. But when I when
I would go to a party, I would. I would be outrageous,
but the next day I would feel drained, exhausted.
Whereas when I'm here, even though I'm tired
now, like my shoulder, like my bag was like 90
pounds or something like that. And I hiked for
three days and just, I don't feel drained. I
feel alive. But you put me in a nightclub for
three hours, forget it. Even though I'm sober,
I've been sober for 12 years now. The reason
I became sober was because I, for some reason,
knew deep down that I had an issue. And after
Afghanistan, I was drinking and drinking because
the mentality of the British army is, you know,
drink, run, have fun, drink more. And it was
like, okay, cool. I guess I'll just keep drinking
because this is what's expected of me. And I
remember one time that I, and this is in the
book as well, where the girl that I was seeing
at the time, she kind of like ran up behind me
as I was leaving a party, very, very drunk. and
scared the absolute shit out of me and i turned
around and i with fist clench went to punch whoever
it was that scared me because like you know i'm
dealing with stuff from afghanistan i'm drunk
as hell like i'm i'm in a blacked out phase i'm
i'm depressed i'm dark as soon as i see her and
her face and my fence my fist is clenched i instantly
sobered up and i remember thinking to myself
if you if you Getting to the point of where you
can't associate kind of like good and bad. And
if you can't figure out your shit because you're
dealing and struggling with something, you need
to take away something. And then the next day
I went to a friend's house for a barbecue who
I also served in the military with. I was in
Afghanistan with him. And I remember he threw
me a beer and I caught it, cracked it. And that
smell. of beer after that night of, you know,
almost punching someone who I was supposed to
have loved. It smelled like regret. I can't even
explain what regret smells like, but it smelled
like regret. And I was like, ah, mate, like I'm,
I'm still hung over, mate. Like, just take it
from me. I'm, I'm, I'm good. And that was the
7th of July and, uh, 12 years ago. And I, it
took, it was a, it was a struggle. It was a very.
big struggle for me being in the military and
trying to be sober. But it was one of the best
things that ever happened to me because if I
wasn't sober, I wouldn't be here today. I'd probably
be in prison. I'd probably be, you know, I'd
have warrants out for me. I was drink driving
and doing dumb shit and just trying to feel normal
because what I had been through was not. what
any 18 year old should have ever have gone through
i had a police officer on the show about six
months ago now and she started doing um oh my
god what's the term uh not pathology what do
you call it autopsy there we go having a brain
fart for a second autopsy as far as the events
leading up to police officer suicide. So she
wasn't, you know, the body itself, but kind of
working out what was going on in their life.
And she said every single one, they had consumed
alcohol within 10, excuse me, 12 hours of their
suicide. And when I think back to, you know,
when I, I mean, I still drink to this day, but
when, you know, when I drank and I was clubbing
and all that stuff and I was younger, there are
girls that I ended up getting with. that I wouldn't
have if I was sober. So if alcohol, and that's
just a very mild example, if alcohol can distort
your judgment in such a simple scenario, now
take someone who's in crisis and you're about
to take your own life, but there's still that
little voice in your head saying, no, no, no,
no, don't do it. And then you start drinking.
That voice is then silenced. And I think this
is probably one of the things that saved your
life is you weren't drinking because so many
people I know they were at the time. But, you
know, if you if you're stone cold sober and you're
young and you haven't been in the military and
you go up on a high building and you go near
the edge of the building, there's that hand,
the visible hand pushing you back away from the
edge. Yeah. When you were in this crisis and
you've been consuming alcohol, that hand goes
behind you and starts pushing you towards the
ledge. So I think, again, alcohol is a really
important part of this whole conversation is
if you are struggling, that is the worst thing
that you should do, because that's taken away
your your innate defense capability of resisting
the urge to take your own life. That's a really
interesting way of thinking about it. I know
that obviously with alcohol, you're kind of like
perception is skewed for sure. And you'll do
things that you don't normally do. for her to
have acknowledged by these autopsies that you
know basically a hundred percent of people who
have committed suicide have had alcohol in their
system and we know this we know this as people
that alcohol is the worst substance that anybody
can take because it's legal and everybody thinks
it's a good thing because it gives you the confidence
to go talk to that person or it gives you the
confidence to get up on a mic at karaoke and
it's like this this thing you know that gives
you that energy but it's actually that thing
that gives you depression and it's actually that
thing that kind of holds you back from being
a good person um you know everything's good in
moderation but um a lot of the times when i was
drinking i was making very bad decisions and
um you know i i regret doing a lot of things
in my life but I definitely do not regret stopping
drinking alcohol because that has truly saved
my life and made me the person I am today. One
more area, then I want to go to some closing
questions so I can let you go. Earlier, you were
talking about one of the guys that you were hiking
with having all that stuff on his back. In the
town that I'm living in now, there's all these
storage areas popping up, storage for people's
stuff from their home, storage to store Winnebago's
and boats and all these things. And we have been
driven to this extreme consumerism, again, through
our television. You're not a man, Harry, unless
you have a ram truck and a fifth wheel and jet
skis and dirt bikes and et cetera. And I think
that really. found legs pre -crash of 2008 where
everyone was refinancing their home and buying
all these toys and then everything fell apart
when I traveled the world after I graduated school
and then drama school and everything I had a
guitar and a backpack that was it yeah and I
found it so liberating and I had some stuff boxed
up still at home and throw everything away but
I downsized so much to the point where if it
wasn't on my back, if I couldn't carry it, then
it didn't come on this trip. Talk to me about
the materialism element of not only yourself,
but the people that you're working amongst and
contrast to what we're told we should have in
the US. That's a great question. And honestly,
to see the amount of stuff. um that people have
is is is wild uh before i came here this is you
know several months ago now i actually was doing
a job working on a hoarder's house and top to
bottom basement first floor second floor he'd
even cut out holes in his ceiling and in his
bathroom walls so he could store more stuff and
i see i that's that's an extreme And then I see
other people who are like, I don't want to throw
that away because it has sentimental value or
I'm going to collect these things. Like here,
it's one of them things where it's like, they
don't just buy something if something is broken.
They will do whatever they can to fix that broken
thing. Or, you know, they will just have the
essentials of what they need. Because whatever
else they don't need is a risk of getting lost
or stolen or, you know, is money that they could
have spent elsewhere. And so for a lot of the
people around here, it's one of them things that
is a beautiful thing of kind of like downsizing
and kind of like not really having all these
essentials. I found that when I bought my house,
I started collecting more things because I had
space to put it. And and it's one of them things
where it's like when I moved from my rental property
to the house that I'm living in now, I did it
in two car trips. You know, that was it with
like my staff and my wife's staff. And and now
if I was to move house, I would have to do several
trips because I've been able to have. a wardrobe
where i can put four or five more t -shirts i've
been able to have a shoe rack where i can have
four or five more pairs of shoes i you know have
things that i have just collected over the years
like when i threw the first pitch at the la dodgers
game i kept that ball that i threw and i had
signatures on it them types of things like they
have small meanings but it's not necessarily
like important and i think that the people here
have the things that are most important to them
and the things that are most essential to thrive
and live here. However, they spend their money
on family and food and other things that are
more important than just valuables that they
associate with good memories. I saw a documentary
a while ago and it was on, there's a term for
it, I'm getting this wrong, but basically disposable
fashion. So there's super cheap high street stores
where you buy it. You know, I think this is less
men, more women. But, you know, they're wearing
an outfit once and they're like, I've already
worn that. And then, you know, it's kind of disguised
as charitable donations and all these things
are then sent and dumped in Haiti or wherever
the supposed, you know, benefiting nation is.
But it's just shifting trash from one country
to another. And again, it goes back to, which
I hope is going to see something that we're going
to see a resurgence of is, you know, a good pair
of jeans will last you a long time. You know,
a good shirt will last you a long time. And,
you know, even your furniture, if it's not this
shit, you know, lamb board or chip board and
Ikea bollocks, but you actually have a real cabinet,
maybe real wood or a dining room table, you're
going to pass that on for generation to generation.
So I think getting away from this, you know.
I want more things and each of those things is
going to be shittier quality. If we actually
reinvest in something that will last, it is repairable,
like you said, then that's going to have a long
-term impact on everything from the amount of
trash that we throw away to even the consumption
of oil. Like if we go back to normal size vehicles,
if you're not a tradesman and don't need a giant
truck, imagine how, you know, the impact that
would have on the demand for oil and even that.
would have a ripple effect to where you are right
now absolutely yeah it's uh it's crazy the amount
of things that we think we need and the things
that we actually need um but it's you know everybody's
guilty of it everybody has things that they kind
of like collect have love enjoy have memories
connected to but um yeah i feel like a lot of
people here they have memories which are in their
heads and not on their phones or not as like
valuable items. It's the memories here are more
important than the actual physical item. So one
of the last questions for you, when do you think
the book will be out and do you have a title
for it yet? Well, I am hoping to finish my book
on my first draft at the end of this year. I'm
then hoping to... get an editing kind of situation
going and i know that that takes a while and
then with kind of like publishers and all these
types of things it could take another year so
i'm expecting the end of next year that the book
will be out um i have a few names for them and
one which is in the kind of uh the air at the
moment moment is like gifts from the darkness
um i feel like A lot of the times where I've
had my darkest moments and my darkest things
have actually been a gift and have actually been
a hand to basically say, take this. You're going
through some shit. You're struggling. Everything's
going to shit around you. Nothing is great. But
this is a moment and a pivotal moment, kind of
going back to what we kind of started with at
the beginning of this podcast. This is a moment
that is going to shape you. And so these dark
moments aren't necessarily looked at and viewed
as negatives. Now they're actually viewed as
kind of positives because if I didn't do so -and
-so, I wouldn't be here because of that. If I
didn't go to this place and struggle, I wouldn't
be here now because of this. So gifts from the
darkness is one of them. And then if I don't
really like that. I also kind of like the name
Through the Eyes of an Ocelot because a lot of
the things that I'm kind of looking at now is
via my boys. And I've done everything I could
through them. And to see life differently is
to see life how an animal would see it or to
see it how somebody else. Who is living in an
incredible place and who is just having the best
time of their life, like swimming in a stream
and, you know, doing whatever, because like everybody
is, is viewing things through their own eyes.
But if you look at it from somebody else's perspective
or an Ocelot's perspective, you can really truly
gain to appreciate. The kind of concept that
you were talking about with the first title is
something I think we need to see a lot more of.
I've made this kind of observation recently,
and this is what my most recent book was about,
was in the mental health conversation, we understand
that we need to smash the stigma. the message
for a long time but that doesn't get you any
closer it just really is saying hey when people
are struggling don't be a dick that's pretty
much it yeah you know create an environment how
your friends are doing and and you know kind
of go or the correct route but like how do you
personally see that yeah well then the thing
so the next thing is the hope of post -traumatic
growth and that's what you're talking about let
me just bang my mic um you know When you can
work through this and you found your own unique
toolbox, whether it's a month in the Amazonian
jungle or whether it's, again, some retreat or
simply just talk therapy with someone that you
trust, whatever your thing was, now you can reflect
back and see the gifts that you were given in
these traumas. So I think that there's so much
power to that hope of, you know, look where Harry
is now. Look where Harry was. You know, he's
a completely different person now. He's not.
who he was before he went to war. He's a different
person now, but he's got more resilience, more
compassion, more empathy. So I think that's such
a needed conversation now is the storytelling
of the hope of the 2 .0 version of yourself that
then will drive you through whatever your own
kind of crucible is to get there. Yeah. I feel
like a lot of people see... me and and see the
change that i have become and they and they use
somewhat of the term of like you know harry is
healed i'm not healed what i have done is i have
learned to accept the challenges that i have
had in life i've learned to try and see things
differently i've learned that um you know everything
happens for a reason but like i think what i've
truly learned is that if you just do the things
that you want to do and and that you feel is
important you will never be disappointed in yourself
and I still have days like negative days where
I I contemplate suicide and I think about self
-harm and I think about you know absolute just
terror and horribleness but I also now can associate
with my mental health that you know that is one
of them things where it just, that's part of
life. What I need to do now and with age and
with all these things is that, you know, you're
never going to be healed, but what you can do
is you can kind of like, you can use what you
know now about your body, your mental health,
your physical health, all these things. And you
can say, look, it's just one of them bad days,
but one of these bad days is going to be a good
day soon. Absolutely. Well, for people listening,
where's the best place to find Emerald Arch online
and then any other social media handles you want
to do as far as your own projects too? Yeah,
so Emerald Arch is www .emeraldarch .org. And
we're also on Instagram with emerald .arch. I'm
hoping to start a YouTube channel soon, but oh
my God, I've got so much going on. I'm just trying
to do all the important stuff right now, but
YouTube will be up soon and we'll get some cool
videos from the land and some of the cool stuff
that we found. And we just put some plaques up
on some really cool trees on the land to honor
some of the beautiful people that have passed
away. One of them being a very good friend of
mine, Dana, who died of cancer two years ago.
And so it's what we're what we're doing is we're
collecting content. We're doing all these things
so that we can really, truly show people what
this land is about, how we can help local people,
how we can do all these things. So I'm honored
for you to ask me to be on again. Thank you so
much for this opportunity to. spread the word
about what we're doing here and the good and
positive that we're trying to trying to achieve
in this place um but yeah uh keep your eyes out
dude because we're going to be doing some good
stuff and we're going to be making big moves
in the next in in the next few years we're going
to be making big changes here um but if anybody
does have a spare million dollars let me know
because that's what that's what's going to really
help us