WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran

00:00:02.620 --> 00:00:04.980
-owned and operated performance optimization

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company that I introduced recently as a sponsor

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on this show. Well, since then I have actually

00:00:10.820 --> 00:00:13.080
been using my products and I have had incredible

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extremely detailed and based on that they offered

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supplementation. So I began taking DHEA. bpc

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157 for inflammation based on the fact that i've

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been a stuntman a martial artist and a firefighter

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my whole life lots of aches and pains dihexa

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to help cognition after multiple punches to the

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head and shift work and peptides four months

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later they did a detailed blood work again and

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i was actually able to taper off two of the peptides

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because my body had responded so well to just

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So I cannot speak highly enough of the immense

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is needed by a lot of the fire service, or whether

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it's exogenous testosterone needed, especially

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after TBIs or advanced age. Now, as I mentioned

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before, the other side of this company is an

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altruistic arm called the Transcend Foundation,

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which is putting veterans and first responders

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through some of their protocols free of charge.

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Now, Transcend are also offering you, the audience,

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on jamesgearing .com under the Products tab.

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And if you want to hear more about Transcend

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and their story, listen to episode 808 with the

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founder, Ernie Colling. or go to transcendcompany

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.com. Welcome to the Pioneer Shield Podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing, and this

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week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the

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show Assistant Chief of West Metro Fire Rescue

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and Researcher, Mike Binney. Now, as many of

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you would have heard me talk about, there is

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very little research when it comes to sleep deprivation

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and shift work in the fire service specifically.

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And Mike has made it his mission to be one of

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those voices within our profession. So we discuss

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a host of topics from his journey into the fire

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service, the chronic and acute impact of sleep

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deprivation, shift start times, why there is

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a lack of research in this area. studying the

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progressive 2472 and so much more. Now, before

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we get to this incredible conversation, as I

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say every week, please just take a moment. Go

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to whichever app you listen to this on. Subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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well over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in

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return is that you help share these incredible

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men and women's stories so I can get them to

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every single person on planet Earth who needs

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to hear them. So that being said, I introduce

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to you Mike Binney. Enjoy. Well, Mike, I want

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to start by saying thank you so, so much for

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taking the time and coming on the Behind the

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Shield podcast today. Absolutely. I'm happy to

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be here. So where on planet Earth are you finding

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you this afternoon? So I am in Littleton, Colorado,

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just south of Denver, on the southwest side of

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Denver. Yeah, that's where I'm at. Let's start

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at the very beginning of your story then. So

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tell me where you were born and tell me a little

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bit about your family dynamic, what your parents

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did, how many siblings. So I was born in Portland,

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Oregon. We moved to the Denver metro area when

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I was six months old. We have been here ever

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since. My dad moved here for grad school from

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New Zealand. We've been a couple of generations

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deep on the North Island. of New Zealand. Everybody

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else on my dad's side still lives down in Tauranga

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and Auckland and a couple people up in Wanaka,

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which is very cool. someday uh get the family

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back down there my mom on the other side of the

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world is from new jersey two very different places

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to be from um and so my mom was from a little

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town on the south end of the jersey shore called

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cape may um and i grew up going there pretty

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much every summer we'd go there and uh my red

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hair would get burned um and i'd spend a lot

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of time in the shade after about the first week

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um i've got a little brother but he's uh bigger

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than me He is a super smart data nerd and works

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in the defense sector doing computer stuff. And

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he just refers to people as the client. So that's

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about all we get to know about his job. But he's

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very smart and very cool. He's four years younger

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than me. So it was nice to beat up on him while

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I could. But now that's definitely not the case.

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I absolutely love New Zealand. When I was traveling

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around the world, I spent... I think it was two

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weeks started in Auckland and just worked our

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way south. And the change in topography and geography

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in those two small islands is mind -blowing.

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We didn't go to the beach, but it was beach weather

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and we were on North Island and then we finished

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snowboarding in Queenstown. So absolutely stunning

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place to go. Yeah, we would do Christmas down

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there every couple of years. And one of my earliest

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memories is sleeping in one of those like BMW

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conversion vans while everybody was out windsurfing

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in the Mount Maunganui area. And like, I will

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always remember the smell. And like when you

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wake up, like the face, your face sticking to

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like a fake plastic seat. I think that's one

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of the things I remember most about going there

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when I was little. But yeah, it's beautiful country,

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super cool people. And yeah, like I said, it

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would be fun to get my kids down there to check

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it all out once they can tolerate more than a

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four hour airplane ride. Yeah, it's a bit of

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a hike. That's for sure. All right. Well, then

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when you were at the school age, what were you

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doing and playing as far as sports and exercise?

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Where I grew up, it was pretty much all three

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season athletes. You don't really see that as

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much anymore. So we would do, you know, baseball

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in the spring. We'd always have something going

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on in basketball in the fall. Football, played

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that all through middle school and was really

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not good at it. I was just awful. It was like,

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all right, let's put this guy in a place where

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he's not going to do any good or any harm. So

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in high school, I played golf pretty good at

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that. Ran cross country, did basketball until

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everybody else got way better than me, but always

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ran track and tried to stay active. And that

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was, you know, that was the high school world.

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It was funny. We were our school was new and

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we were the first group to go through from freshman.

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to seniors. So they immediately put us in the

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most competitive conference, which in the Denver

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Metro area was 5A. And I remember, man, we're

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a bunch of guys who are 140 pounds out there

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playing football or basketball events against

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grown men. So we had, you know, everybody lettered

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for everything, but you were really not good.

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So that was definitely one of the more humbling

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phases in my life when we were, you know, playing

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some of the big teams. Did you carry on playing

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sport and exercising after high school? Did that

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carry on after that exposure to sport? Well,

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if you count club dodgeball in college, very

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much then, yes. We played Twilight Golf. In in

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college as well. And then, you know, all the

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organized kind of flag football and stuff that

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was associated with some of those more carefree

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times in life. So did that. And then afterwards,

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again, once I joined the fire department, it

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was all all, you know, fitness and sports. And

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me and one of my buddies just kind of did an

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off the couch marathon. in las vegas uh and that

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was again another humbling event i think i'm

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starting to see a trend in some of this stuff

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but then i was kind of hooked i've run boston

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um i ran berlin a couple years ago and it was

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just great it's so much fun it's nice to do you

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know destination races and things like that because

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you can prioritize them in your life and um you

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know it's it's just really cool to get to be

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part of a running community but uh and to kind

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of do those things so yeah Yep, still stayed

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very involved. Now pickleball is the hotness

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in the station, so we do a lot of pickleball.

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I probably shouldn't say that. No, I think it's

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great. I've literally seen pickleball as tennis

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for everyone else. And what I mean by that, if

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you're really good at tennis, it's a fun sport.

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But for everyone else, it's serve, okay, go get

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the ball. Serve, go get the ball. Serve, return,

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go get the ball. And then it inevitably turns

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into... it inevitably turns into home run derby

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and then everybody goes home exactly exactly

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so but what i asked about that is is a lot of

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people that didn't excel in a particular sport

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never got that burnout and it's very apparent

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now the more conversations i've had you know

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physically and mentally some of these kids that

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were really really you know squeezed as far as

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um uh performance in their sport in school and

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college a lot of time there were injuries and

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burnout and then there was a big drop off but

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whether it's a country where sport was kept as

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play or whether it was just crap kids like i

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was that never got to that high level i think

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that you avoided that and that therefore carried

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on to maintaining your love of sport Well, and

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I think also like if you're not very good at

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something, your only thing that you have is continued

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grit. And I think when you look at endurance

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sport, like really all you have to do is not

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stop. You don't have to be great. You don't have

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to do anything. You just have to not give up.

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So I feel like that's maybe why I was better

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at those things than, you know, than any of the

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high contact sports. So what about career aspirations

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as you're going through the high school age?

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Was it already the fire service or was there

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something else? No, I had no idea. I mean, it's

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I left for college here in the Denver metro area.

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It seems like, you know, half the kids went up

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to Boulder. The other half went up to Fort Collins

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to CSU. Bless their hearts. They'll never be

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as cool as the kids who went to Boulder. And

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then the really smart kids went to the School

00:10:53.129 --> 00:10:55.169
of Mines and then everybody ends up working for

00:10:55.169 --> 00:10:59.870
those guys. So it was I had no idea what I wanted

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to do. And it was kind of like the natural progression

00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:04.899
was up. You're going to go to college and then

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you'll figure it out on the fly there. So I went

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up to Boulder and did my undergrad there. I was

00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:14.740
so good at going to college. and not going to

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school that I got to do my first year twice.

00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:20.299
I almost was not invited back. And then near

00:11:20.299 --> 00:11:22.240
the end, I kind of realized that I was going

00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:24.120
down the road of being on the Van Wilder plan.

00:11:24.379 --> 00:11:26.259
So I said, man, I got to get out of here. So

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I went into my advisor's office and said, what

00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:31.879
am I the closest to graduating? One of the things

00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:34.419
that I thought was so cool about college was

00:11:34.419 --> 00:11:36.559
getting to take classes that you would have otherwise

00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:40.230
never, you know, even now as a grownup. wouldn't

00:11:40.230 --> 00:11:43.470
pay for some of those classes. But I got to take

00:11:43.470 --> 00:11:47.409
humanities classes and classics classes and the

00:11:47.409 --> 00:11:49.929
different economics classes. I really dabbled

00:11:49.929 --> 00:11:53.389
and celebrated the entire liberal arts catalog.

00:11:53.789 --> 00:11:55.789
And I think not only does that make you good

00:11:55.789 --> 00:11:58.090
at bar trivia, but I think it also makes you

00:11:58.090 --> 00:12:01.990
a more well -rounded kind of thinker and critical

00:12:01.990 --> 00:12:06.190
thinker once you hit the real world. So, yeah,

00:12:06.330 --> 00:12:09.070
I did that. I was one of the first like kind

00:12:09.070 --> 00:12:11.570
of the OG groups to go through the new neuroscience

00:12:11.570 --> 00:12:14.929
program up in Boulder under Dr. Jerry Rudy before

00:12:14.929 --> 00:12:17.169
it was like even a real thing. It was kind of

00:12:17.169 --> 00:12:18.909
just a couple of classes that you could take

00:12:18.909 --> 00:12:22.990
under the molecular bio or the psych umbrella.

00:12:23.389 --> 00:12:25.990
And that was, you know, fascinating talking about

00:12:25.990 --> 00:12:29.450
how. neurodevelopment and plasticity and all

00:12:29.450 --> 00:12:31.789
these kind of early on theories, this was kind

00:12:31.789 --> 00:12:34.490
of the first time that those were made available

00:12:34.490 --> 00:12:38.009
to undergrads, you know, so that was really cool.

00:12:38.649 --> 00:12:42.570
But yeah, that was kind of my original thing.

00:12:42.690 --> 00:12:44.450
And then even near the end of college, I had

00:12:44.450 --> 00:12:46.590
no idea what I wanted to do. I mean, it was kind

00:12:46.590 --> 00:12:49.610
of like, it was like 2007. So there was like

00:12:49.610 --> 00:12:52.289
just about going into the financial crisis. There

00:12:52.289 --> 00:12:54.590
were no, you know, most of my friends who were

00:12:54.590 --> 00:12:57.070
graduating just kept going to school. They went

00:12:57.070 --> 00:13:00.590
back in, kept, you know, kind of accumulating

00:13:00.590 --> 00:13:03.409
more student debt. I had no idea what I wanted

00:13:03.409 --> 00:13:05.250
to do, but there weren't a lot of other jobs

00:13:05.250 --> 00:13:10.159
out there. uh my girlfriend at the time now she's

00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:13.740
my wife for Oh, I'm on the hot seat here. I think

00:13:13.740 --> 00:13:17.340
we're 13 years now. But we dated for a long time,

00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:20.100
bought a house first and all that. But her dad

00:13:20.100 --> 00:13:22.600
was an engineer at the Denver Fire Department.

00:13:22.860 --> 00:13:25.259
And like I said, I was getting close to the end

00:13:25.259 --> 00:13:26.820
of college and I was like, I have no idea what

00:13:26.820 --> 00:13:28.820
the hell I want to be when I grow up. So I did

00:13:28.820 --> 00:13:31.340
a ride along with them and I was hooked, man.

00:13:31.419 --> 00:13:35.320
That was so much fun driving through town in

00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:39.039
a fire truck. And it felt like kind of that going

00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:41.370
back to that team mentality. you know you had

00:13:41.370 --> 00:13:43.850
everybody talking crap to each other having a

00:13:43.850 --> 00:13:46.269
great time cooking in the kitchen but we had

00:13:46.269 --> 00:13:48.230
that you know i saw that camaraderie and that

00:13:48.230 --> 00:13:50.750
was the first time that i had seen that since

00:13:50.750 --> 00:13:53.230
you know high school sports or you know again

00:13:53.230 --> 00:13:55.970
club dodgeball um things like that so i was like

00:13:55.970 --> 00:13:58.110
man this is a sweet job i think i'd really like

00:13:58.110 --> 00:14:00.289
to do this and that's kind of how it all started

00:14:01.610 --> 00:14:03.490
Going back to what you said about trying different

00:14:03.490 --> 00:14:07.049
classes, there's a story about Steve Jobs who

00:14:07.049 --> 00:14:10.830
went to college but didn't actually take a major.

00:14:11.029 --> 00:14:13.789
He just started taking some classes and one of

00:14:13.789 --> 00:14:16.889
them was calligraphy. And then years later, Apple

00:14:16.889 --> 00:14:19.509
becomes the first manufacturer that creates fonts

00:14:19.509 --> 00:14:23.470
on a computer. So you never know how those are

00:14:23.470 --> 00:14:25.820
going to apply. I took a speech class. Never

00:14:25.820 --> 00:14:28.120
had any idea that one day I'd be doing a podcast.

00:14:28.340 --> 00:14:30.460
So, you know, sometimes when you're interested

00:14:30.460 --> 00:14:32.440
in something, it is worth taking those classes.

00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:35.200
Well, I think it's just such a great time in

00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:37.820
your life where you have a little bit of flexibility

00:14:37.820 --> 00:14:41.080
to explore and learn different things and try

00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:43.179
different stuff that you, you know, if you were

00:14:43.179 --> 00:14:46.000
in a regimented cohort group or something like

00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:48.240
that, you wouldn't have those opportunities to

00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:52.100
kind of dabble. I completely agree with you.

00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:56.639
So what was your on -ramp experience, even though

00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:58.360
you had that? You said it was an uncle that was

00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:01.500
in Denver? Is that what you said? Well, now father

00:15:01.500 --> 00:15:03.299
-in -law. Okay, that's right. I'm sorry. You

00:15:03.299 --> 00:15:06.159
didn't have that, obviously, exposure growing

00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:08.539
up then. So what was your kind of front door

00:15:08.539 --> 00:15:11.059
on -ramp experience as far as entering the profession?

00:15:12.039 --> 00:15:16.899
Well, I just Googled and ended up taking kind

00:15:16.899 --> 00:15:21.440
of a consortium. uh test at the same time as

00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:24.580
applying specifically to west metro in the denver

00:15:24.580 --> 00:15:27.980
metro area we had a consortium test denver had

00:15:27.980 --> 00:15:30.480
its own test and then a bunch of departments

00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:33.360
went through and had one big process together

00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:36.120
and then west metro itself had its own process

00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:41.059
so i went to emt school and drove uh that sorry

00:15:41.059 --> 00:15:44.620
that first summer after college and drove a wheelchair

00:15:44.620 --> 00:15:47.830
car and just crushed it drove it all over town

00:15:47.830 --> 00:15:51.250
you know listening to music with the windows

00:15:51.250 --> 00:15:53.470
down driving old people to their different appointments

00:15:53.470 --> 00:15:57.269
um you know that was kind of you you go into

00:15:57.269 --> 00:15:59.070
emt school and you're like all right i'm gonna

00:15:59.070 --> 00:16:00.850
do something super cool and then you're like

00:16:00.850 --> 00:16:03.769
in wheelchair van um so i did that for a while

00:16:03.769 --> 00:16:06.129
while i was testing which is great because it

00:16:06.129 --> 00:16:08.570
gave me time to you know think about things read

00:16:08.570 --> 00:16:12.990
books understand look things up on the original

00:16:12.990 --> 00:16:15.629
browser on the Motorola Razr, trying to look

00:16:15.629 --> 00:16:18.870
at how to do that stuff. So that was kind of

00:16:18.870 --> 00:16:22.149
the first round of becoming enthusiastic. And

00:16:22.149 --> 00:16:24.269
it's so hard when you're trying to get on. That's

00:16:24.269 --> 00:16:27.389
something that I keep reminding myself of. Once

00:16:27.389 --> 00:16:29.389
you're blessed with the opportunity to do this

00:16:29.389 --> 00:16:32.110
job, I think it's incumbent upon you to try and

00:16:32.110 --> 00:16:35.820
help others achieve their goals. And I just remember,

00:16:35.860 --> 00:16:39.139
you know, some of the people that helped me during

00:16:39.139 --> 00:16:41.460
the testing process, specifically, you know,

00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:45.519
like Ben Schultz, who works down in in Palm Beach

00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:48.440
City now. And Brian Brush, who's, you know, this

00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:50.940
world famous guy, like they were both guys who

00:16:50.940 --> 00:16:54.840
took time out of their lives to help me articulate

00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:57.600
my thoughts and get ready kind of for the oral

00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:01.360
board process. So I was lucky enough to get hired

00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:04.230
with West Metro on the first round. that I tried

00:17:04.230 --> 00:17:07.289
with them. And then it was kind of pedal to the

00:17:07.289 --> 00:17:11.869
metal after that. What was the environment like

00:17:11.869 --> 00:17:15.470
as far as competition to get hired in that period

00:17:15.470 --> 00:17:18.309
that you were coming in? Well, and this is kind

00:17:18.309 --> 00:17:21.789
of like my overall thought about the cyclical

00:17:21.789 --> 00:17:24.539
nature of the public sector. hiring and specifically

00:17:24.539 --> 00:17:28.279
like like our jobs like it was going into the

00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:31.400
financial crisis we had i think over like a thousand

00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:35.480
people applied and our academy had 13 we ended

00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:39.519
with 12. so it really was you know the it was

00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:42.500
highly competitive and i remember you know during

00:17:42.500 --> 00:17:45.339
the physical ability test ours wasn't like cpat

00:17:45.339 --> 00:17:48.500
where it was just pass fail it was balls out

00:17:48.500 --> 00:17:50.779
and you know, there were people puking at the

00:17:50.779 --> 00:17:52.720
end, like they had an ambulance stage there.

00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:55.460
It was, if you were going to get a hundred points

00:17:55.460 --> 00:17:57.900
on that test as part of your, you know, your

00:17:57.900 --> 00:18:01.019
overall score, you were putting the work in and

00:18:01.019 --> 00:18:03.039
you were going to need some time laying in the

00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:05.460
parking lot before you felt safe to drive home.

00:18:05.779 --> 00:18:09.099
So yeah, it was very competitive. Every step

00:18:09.099 --> 00:18:10.680
you're like, Oh, I just want to get that email.

00:18:11.180 --> 00:18:13.240
Just want to get that email. And even I always

00:18:13.240 --> 00:18:15.180
remember this is a funny one is I remember on

00:18:15.180 --> 00:18:17.539
the written test, we took it in a big high school

00:18:17.539 --> 00:18:19.579
and they had multiple waves of people taking

00:18:19.579 --> 00:18:21.700
the test. You go in and you sit at, you know,

00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:23.619
these round lunch tables from the high school

00:18:23.619 --> 00:18:25.539
and you get your Scantron and then you go stand

00:18:25.539 --> 00:18:28.400
in line with everybody. And they have like the

00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:30.940
Scantron of shame and people are putting it in

00:18:30.940 --> 00:18:34.480
and it's going. And they don't get the, you know,

00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:36.240
the golden ticket to the next round. And you're

00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:38.299
like, oh, please just let the Scantron be quiet.

00:18:38.829 --> 00:18:41.029
But those are things, you know, so many places

00:18:41.029 --> 00:18:44.150
do like online testing now. You know, you don't

00:18:44.150 --> 00:18:47.089
get the joy of, you know, the peaks and valleys

00:18:47.089 --> 00:18:49.710
of going through it as a process, as a group

00:18:49.710 --> 00:18:52.710
of people and the Scantron. I don't think anybody

00:18:52.710 --> 00:18:57.009
ever forgets that Scantron noise. I did the written

00:18:57.009 --> 00:18:59.250
test for Anaheim and this was the actual written

00:18:59.250 --> 00:19:01.130
one. It was in the Anaheim Convention Center

00:19:01.130 --> 00:19:03.509
and there were a thousand of us. sitting at a

00:19:03.509 --> 00:19:05.470
desk and i can't remember if it was in waves

00:19:05.470 --> 00:19:08.109
or not but um and obviously i just know the time

00:19:08.109 --> 00:19:11.049
that i showed up but yeah i mean just a sea of

00:19:11.049 --> 00:19:12.890
recruits and i've said this many times this is

00:19:12.890 --> 00:19:14.869
at the written so they've already been vetted

00:19:14.869 --> 00:19:16.529
they filter out all the ones they didn't want

00:19:16.529 --> 00:19:19.950
um and then you know as i found out later excuse

00:19:19.950 --> 00:19:22.490
me You know, a lot of these guys were already

00:19:22.490 --> 00:19:24.230
certified. Well, they had to be certified fire

00:19:24.230 --> 00:19:27.589
EMT and or medic, but they were, you know, green

00:19:27.589 --> 00:19:30.730
jeans, you know, like CDF. They were ambulance

00:19:30.730 --> 00:19:34.089
operators. They were explorers. You know, I was

00:19:34.089 --> 00:19:35.890
a lateral, even though I only had a year on prior.

00:19:36.210 --> 00:19:38.170
So there was just a huge amount of experience.

00:19:38.390 --> 00:19:40.910
So it wasn't just 18 and a heartbeat. You're

00:19:40.910 --> 00:19:43.029
talking about people that have spent years padding

00:19:43.029 --> 00:19:45.970
their resume to even get that golden ticket to

00:19:45.970 --> 00:19:48.470
sit at a written, to even try and get a job.

00:19:49.339 --> 00:19:52.480
Yeah, I think about the guys that I went through

00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:55.240
Academy with, and I'm like, man, these are some

00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:57.940
of the best humans I could have ever been associated

00:19:57.940 --> 00:20:01.279
with. And that's definitely a point of pride,

00:20:01.420 --> 00:20:04.400
for sure. Yeah, I think that's just an important

00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:06.240
point when you hear people, and we're really

00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:09.740
talking 10, 15, 20 years, so not that long ago,

00:20:09.900 --> 00:20:13.759
for people to understand how the fire service

00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:16.079
was. Because as we start getting into what we're

00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:18.339
going to talk about later, One of the questions

00:20:18.339 --> 00:20:20.339
is, well, we can't even hire enough people now.

00:20:20.500 --> 00:20:23.180
And my thing is like, yeah, but we used to. Very,

00:20:23.259 --> 00:20:26.019
very recently, thousands of people would line

00:20:26.019 --> 00:20:29.700
up for a handful of spots. So A, how the hell

00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:32.240
do we get here? And then B, what do we got to

00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:34.640
do to turn it around so that we are choosing

00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:39.519
the top five, 10 % of every list, not 85%. Absolutely.

00:20:39.900 --> 00:20:44.309
Yeah. Yep. So you kind of got through the front

00:20:44.309 --> 00:20:47.650
doors now. Talk to me about probation and then

00:20:47.650 --> 00:20:49.569
what was some of the units that you were assigned

00:20:49.569 --> 00:20:51.910
to as far as, you know, trucks, engines, etc.

00:20:52.450 --> 00:20:55.369
Yeah, I don't know if it was a good or bad thing,

00:20:55.430 --> 00:20:57.569
but right out of Academy, I got put on as the

00:20:57.569 --> 00:21:01.650
fourth on our heavy rescue. And it was, oh my

00:21:01.650 --> 00:21:03.910
God, it was overwhelming. There are so many acronyms,

00:21:03.910 --> 00:21:06.789
so many new things. I, you know, the lieutenant

00:21:06.789 --> 00:21:10.200
at the time. He pulled me aside and said, your

00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:12.339
real job is to just know where everything is

00:21:12.339 --> 00:21:14.160
and hand it to somebody who knows what to do

00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:16.819
with it. And you'll get caught up along the way.

00:21:17.140 --> 00:21:19.700
And so, you know, it was kind of the tail end

00:21:19.700 --> 00:21:23.640
of like all the fun firehouse pranks, I guess,

00:21:23.660 --> 00:21:26.680
mostly at my expense. But it was, you know, building

00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:29.119
some of that camaraderie. I remember, you know,

00:21:29.180 --> 00:21:33.359
the idea of people messing with you is almost

00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:37.079
worse than what actually happens. One of the

00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:40.420
stations had the doors were all cut on the bottom

00:21:40.420 --> 00:21:42.940
about an inch higher than they normally would

00:21:42.940 --> 00:21:46.019
be. So you could throw a cookie sheet of firecrackers

00:21:46.019 --> 00:21:48.980
under the under the door in the middle of the

00:21:48.980 --> 00:21:51.500
night. Or I remember, you know, they were in

00:21:51.500 --> 00:21:53.940
my head so bad. Like one night I just slept in

00:21:53.940 --> 00:21:56.059
the recliner with my back against the wall because

00:21:56.059 --> 00:21:58.400
I was sure, you know, somebody was going to do

00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:02.460
something. But, you know, I learned through a

00:22:02.460 --> 00:22:04.359
lot of feedback how to make the perfect scrambled

00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:07.180
egg. You know, there are all these things that

00:22:07.180 --> 00:22:10.680
you pick up along the way. And so I was on that

00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:14.460
heavy rescue and learned a ton from, you know,

00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:17.480
arguably the more senior and experienced people

00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:19.980
that took the time to, you know, make me feel

00:22:19.980 --> 00:22:22.819
welcome, make me feel part of the team, remind

00:22:22.819 --> 00:22:24.859
me of where I was in the pecking order, which

00:22:24.859 --> 00:22:27.769
was so, you know, important. really important

00:22:27.769 --> 00:22:30.089
when you talk about you know managing large scenes

00:22:30.089 --> 00:22:32.710
and things like that um and then i left there

00:22:32.710 --> 00:22:35.609
and i went to our busiest ambulance so we do

00:22:35.609 --> 00:22:37.670
a rotation where you do either a truck or the

00:22:37.670 --> 00:22:40.329
rescue uh you do the ambulance or the engine

00:22:40.329 --> 00:22:43.049
and then you rotate around the district so you

00:22:43.049 --> 00:22:44.630
kind of get to see everything you're getting

00:22:44.630 --> 00:22:46.970
more broad experience once you're out of academy

00:22:46.970 --> 00:22:49.849
so i went to our busiest ambulance medic one

00:22:49.849 --> 00:22:54.779
which Everybody seems to be reinvigorated by

00:22:54.779 --> 00:22:57.519
South Park right now. Our medic one or our station

00:22:57.519 --> 00:22:59.720
one is right across the street from Casa Bonita.

00:22:59.799 --> 00:23:03.599
So from the episode where Cartman has his birthday

00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:07.960
party at Casa Bonita. So it's our most socio

00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:11.299
and economically diverse part of our entire district.

00:23:12.190 --> 00:23:14.829
So you are running and gunning. You're running.

00:23:14.910 --> 00:23:17.470
I know at one point we had, you know, over a

00:23:17.470 --> 00:23:21.069
4896. We'd be in the mid 40s on calls sometimes.

00:23:21.869 --> 00:23:26.009
It was brutal. And I hate to say it was a rite

00:23:26.009 --> 00:23:29.970
of passage, but it gave me the perspective now

00:23:29.970 --> 00:23:31.930
that I'm in a position where I can kind of step

00:23:31.930 --> 00:23:35.609
back from being in the meat grinder and think

00:23:35.609 --> 00:23:37.509
about, man, like, you know, that's not great.

00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:40.019
Like driving home and not remembering driving

00:23:40.019 --> 00:23:43.079
home was not awesome. Living on nothing but like,

00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:45.440
you know, Monster Energy drinks and Uncrustables,

00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:49.019
not great. But, you know, when you're 20, you

00:23:49.019 --> 00:23:50.700
don't know any better. You're just excited to

00:23:50.700 --> 00:23:52.319
be doing it. You want to run calls. You want

00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:54.720
to see awesome stuff. You want to break things

00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:58.099
and, you know, generally be awesome. But I think

00:23:58.099 --> 00:24:00.000
you have a shelf life for that. And it depends

00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:04.039
on, in my mind, how long you squeeze that, you

00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:07.289
know, is. It is reflective and incumbent upon

00:24:07.289 --> 00:24:11.390
the district or the department to say, man, we

00:24:11.390 --> 00:24:13.809
got to make sure we're doing right by these people.

00:24:13.950 --> 00:24:17.890
So I did that and was there as a teaching paramedic

00:24:17.890 --> 00:24:21.490
for a while. And that was great. I got to see

00:24:21.490 --> 00:24:23.470
a lot of really cool people come through. Our

00:24:23.470 --> 00:24:26.210
district is partners with our local community

00:24:26.210 --> 00:24:29.490
college. So we and it's the Arapahoe Community

00:24:29.490 --> 00:24:31.430
College Paramedic School is kind of a magnet

00:24:31.430 --> 00:24:34.480
school. So we have people. come from all over

00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:38.319
the country. So we've had people who would ride

00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:41.759
from Anchorage Fire, would come down and go to

00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:44.039
paramedic school in the Denver metro area, and

00:24:44.039 --> 00:24:46.059
then they'd ride on our busy ambulances as third

00:24:46.059 --> 00:24:48.119
riders. We'd have people come down from the mountains

00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:51.539
like Steamboat. And then, like I said, pretty

00:24:51.539 --> 00:24:54.299
much around the country come to this paramedic

00:24:54.299 --> 00:24:57.430
school. ride with us. So it was cool because

00:24:57.430 --> 00:24:59.089
we got to show our model to a lot of different

00:24:59.089 --> 00:25:02.430
people. We got to learn a bunch. We had the medical

00:25:02.430 --> 00:25:06.670
contract for the Red Rocks Amphitheater. So we

00:25:06.670 --> 00:25:08.930
do medical up there and man, we'd get to see

00:25:08.930 --> 00:25:11.930
some of the coolest concerts and work medical

00:25:11.930 --> 00:25:13.849
for those. So we'd bring our third riders up

00:25:13.849 --> 00:25:16.890
there. And I just remember we were at a Soundtribe

00:25:16.890 --> 00:25:21.690
Sector 9. and Deadmau5 concert up there, the

00:25:21.690 --> 00:25:24.329
full EDM experience. And he was this guy from

00:25:24.329 --> 00:25:26.910
Anchorage and he was like, what is going on here?

00:25:27.650 --> 00:25:31.829
So it was just a great place to be new at this

00:25:31.829 --> 00:25:34.309
job. I learned a lot. And like I said, I think

00:25:34.309 --> 00:25:39.970
it's definitely given me the perspective of why

00:25:39.970 --> 00:25:44.470
we do what we do. I can imagine that a DJ's head

00:25:44.470 --> 00:25:46.470
must have looked strange to a guy from Anchorage,

00:25:46.549 --> 00:25:49.880
Alaska. Giant mouse head. Yeah. And I remember

00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:53.299
we worked, you know, the Marilyn Manson concert

00:25:53.299 --> 00:25:56.359
and, you know, we're doing IVs on some of the

00:25:56.359 --> 00:25:58.039
people from the, you know, they'd come to the

00:25:58.039 --> 00:26:00.299
first aid room and they'd be like, you know,

00:26:00.299 --> 00:26:02.619
even just at a mile high is a lot when you're

00:26:02.619 --> 00:26:05.319
probably singing and dancing like a lot of those

00:26:05.319 --> 00:26:08.279
people do. But, you know, it just gave us a different

00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:11.220
perspective on how medicine works. And it was.

00:26:11.630 --> 00:26:13.170
You know, we have a little first aid room up

00:26:13.170 --> 00:26:15.549
there, but for the most part, it's you and your

00:26:15.549 --> 00:26:17.829
partner and the security people trying to help

00:26:17.829 --> 00:26:20.369
where you can. And you're, you know, battling

00:26:20.369 --> 00:26:23.349
10 ,000 of the drunkest, highest people on the

00:26:23.349 --> 00:26:26.289
face of the earth, you know, with your little

00:26:26.289 --> 00:26:28.910
head flashlight and, you know, pocket full of

00:26:28.910 --> 00:26:31.250
gloves. So I think it gives you, you know, a

00:26:31.250 --> 00:26:34.509
different perspective of medicine and, you know,

00:26:34.509 --> 00:26:38.140
how to be. How to, you know, balance what we

00:26:38.140 --> 00:26:40.680
needed to do in that task and also trying to

00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:42.420
be a human and make sure people were being taken

00:26:42.420 --> 00:26:45.799
care of and safe and well cared for and figure

00:26:45.799 --> 00:26:49.980
out what to do with them. The altitude is no

00:26:49.980 --> 00:26:53.140
joke. I've never had altitude sickness or struggled

00:26:53.140 --> 00:26:56.099
until I went to Denver and I skied. I kind of

00:26:56.099 --> 00:26:57.720
remember that Matt Chan told me about it, but

00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:01.680
it was one of your smaller resorts. And firstly.

00:27:02.329 --> 00:27:05.450
We we land in Colorado and the guy in the car

00:27:05.450 --> 00:27:07.869
hire place is like, we've got this freeze coming.

00:27:08.049 --> 00:27:09.849
You know, you probably need to upgrade to a four

00:27:09.849 --> 00:27:12.569
by four. And it was like at least double what

00:27:12.569 --> 00:27:14.289
we're going to pay even more. And then I was

00:27:14.289 --> 00:27:16.509
like, oh, I've heard this before. So we have

00:27:16.509 --> 00:27:19.230
a two wheel drive car and I'm driving up the

00:27:19.230 --> 00:27:20.910
mountains. And that's when you guys a few years

00:27:20.910 --> 00:27:23.410
ago had the coldest winter that you've had in

00:27:23.410 --> 00:27:25.349
whatever it is. Because, of course, because we

00:27:25.349 --> 00:27:28.789
arrived and they knew the most terrifying drives

00:27:28.789 --> 00:27:31.089
I've ever done in my entire life in a two wheel

00:27:31.089 --> 00:27:34.150
drive car. down the colorado mountain but but

00:27:34.150 --> 00:27:36.769
um but i did snowboarding and i did kind of like

00:27:36.769 --> 00:27:38.950
a lesson like intermediate lesson with a you

00:27:38.950 --> 00:27:42.650
know pseudo teacher slash guide but me and the

00:27:42.650 --> 00:27:44.609
other guy that were in the class we just you

00:27:44.609 --> 00:27:46.069
know we were smoking i think he was from north

00:27:46.069 --> 00:27:48.390
carolina and it was just it was crazy you don't

00:27:48.390 --> 00:27:51.049
realize at that type of altitude because i've

00:27:51.049 --> 00:27:53.569
skied in in austria many times and i don't remember

00:27:53.569 --> 00:27:56.029
getting tired when i was young but Yeah, I can

00:27:56.029 --> 00:27:58.769
only imagine adding that layer that most of us

00:27:58.769 --> 00:28:01.230
just aren't exposed to to the EMS world. It must

00:28:01.230 --> 00:28:03.750
be challenging. Well, and most of the people

00:28:03.750 --> 00:28:05.589
who are coming to concerts up at that altitude

00:28:05.589 --> 00:28:10.230
are not experienced drinkers or imbibers at that

00:28:10.230 --> 00:28:13.329
altitude as well. So I think people, you know.

00:28:13.940 --> 00:28:16.220
to carry the metaphor, get a bit out far or get

00:28:16.220 --> 00:28:18.500
ahead of their skis over the tips a little bit

00:28:18.500 --> 00:28:21.220
when they, uh, when they get up there. So no,

00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:23.180
but it's, uh, yeah, it's great, but you never

00:28:23.180 --> 00:28:25.819
want to be the ding dong on the side of I -70

00:28:25.819 --> 00:28:31.740
and a Honda Civic in a snowstorm. Yeah. Not a

00:28:31.740 --> 00:28:34.920
great place to be. No, no. Luckily it was so

00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:36.980
congested. The traffic was moving slow enough

00:28:36.980 --> 00:28:39.599
that it was barely able to, I was white knuckling

00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:41.740
it and it was like a, or should have been a 90

00:28:41.740 --> 00:28:43.940
minute drive was like four and a half hours,

00:28:43.980 --> 00:28:47.480
you know? So anyway, well, it's funny cause you

00:28:47.480 --> 00:28:49.839
made the comment about, you know, being in the

00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:52.579
meat grinder or medic one, you know, early in

00:28:52.579 --> 00:28:54.799
your career. And I think this is one of the things

00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:58.339
that's really created some of the issues is.

00:28:58.919 --> 00:29:01.880
When you are young, you can handle some of these

00:29:01.880 --> 00:29:04.940
insane shifts. But if we take a step back, when

00:29:04.940 --> 00:29:07.220
we're young, we can also go out drinking, get

00:29:07.220 --> 00:29:09.059
home at four in the morning and then be up at

00:29:09.059 --> 00:29:11.759
seven to go to a job. Doesn't mean that that's

00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:14.019
what you're supposed to do. So I think this is

00:29:14.019 --> 00:29:16.539
one of the kind of distorted lenses is that some

00:29:16.539 --> 00:29:18.460
of our younger people, they are able to power

00:29:18.460 --> 00:29:22.220
through it. But at what cost down the road? Exactly.

00:29:22.900 --> 00:29:26.789
Yeah. So what about career calls then? What was

00:29:26.789 --> 00:29:28.529
some of the things you progressed through that

00:29:28.529 --> 00:29:32.089
first decade or so that you remember? Good, bad,

00:29:32.250 --> 00:29:34.930
moments of compassion, whatever the ones that

00:29:34.930 --> 00:29:42.329
really stuck with you. I think the opportunities

00:29:42.329 --> 00:29:45.509
to see people who had grown up in different circumstances

00:29:45.509 --> 00:29:51.150
than myself. We got to see a lot of people who

00:29:51.150 --> 00:29:55.549
the system had failed. And I think about one

00:29:55.549 --> 00:29:58.950
individual in particular who got blasted on his

00:29:58.950 --> 00:30:03.450
bike. And his bike was his only mode of transportation.

00:30:03.849 --> 00:30:06.069
It was the only way he could get to his job,

00:30:06.250 --> 00:30:10.369
move about town, get around. And this guy's...

00:30:10.779 --> 00:30:13.440
basically whole life was attached to his wheels.

00:30:13.579 --> 00:30:18.799
And he ended up being fine. But we took that

00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:21.420
opportunity to put all our money together, not

00:30:21.420 --> 00:30:23.980
all our money, but go up to the Walmart and get

00:30:23.980 --> 00:30:27.220
him a new set of wheels. And to see kind of the

00:30:27.220 --> 00:30:30.039
thanks in that person's eye, not because it was

00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:33.000
good for us to do it, but it meant the world

00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:35.519
to him because I think he had seen the system

00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:39.319
fail him so many times that... somebody taking

00:30:39.319 --> 00:30:43.079
the time to go out of their way to help this

00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:45.720
person regain their mobility and their transportation.

00:30:45.980 --> 00:30:49.140
Man, I take it for granted. I have an old pickup

00:30:49.140 --> 00:30:52.319
truck with car seats in it and it turns on every

00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:54.380
time I need it to. And I load up my family and

00:30:54.380 --> 00:30:56.079
I take them around the suburbs to everywhere

00:30:56.079 --> 00:30:58.819
they need to go. And I've been very blessed with

00:30:58.819 --> 00:31:01.299
that. And this job has given me that. But there

00:31:01.299 --> 00:31:03.599
are people in this world who don't have those

00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:07.599
same opportunities. While it was frustrating

00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:10.480
at times, while I was so tired at times, while

00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:12.599
I was wanting to say all the mean things in the

00:31:12.599 --> 00:31:15.039
world, for the 20th time we've seen this drunk

00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:20.220
guy on a call, the opportunity to have that perspective

00:31:20.220 --> 00:31:23.900
and have that moment of reflection was super

00:31:23.900 --> 00:31:27.380
important for me as I grew up in this career.

00:31:27.819 --> 00:31:31.700
One interesting thing that I think kind of put...

00:31:31.880 --> 00:31:34.200
my generation of younger people who got hired

00:31:34.200 --> 00:31:36.240
in the late two thousands, apart from some of

00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:38.920
the others or the more recent people we've hired

00:31:38.920 --> 00:31:42.660
is that we were kind of, we had like feet in

00:31:42.660 --> 00:31:44.680
two different generations, right? Like we had

00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:48.339
the older guys who would do unlicensed electrical

00:31:48.339 --> 00:31:51.220
work and roofing on their days off. And, you

00:31:51.220 --> 00:31:54.230
know, they. on their days off with, you know,

00:31:54.230 --> 00:31:57.329
two packs a day or whatever. And then, you know,

00:31:57.329 --> 00:31:59.250
we were the youngest myself and one other guy

00:31:59.250 --> 00:32:01.890
who got hired in the academy right after me.

00:32:01.910 --> 00:32:04.049
We were the youngest people that worked at our

00:32:04.049 --> 00:32:06.309
fire department for like six or seven years.

00:32:06.390 --> 00:32:08.670
We're the only people who were still in our 20s.

00:32:09.490 --> 00:32:12.089
So that gave us, I think, a different perspective

00:32:12.089 --> 00:32:15.480
because we saw. We grew up in some of the older

00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:18.019
ways, but we were definitely younger in the sense

00:32:18.019 --> 00:32:21.059
of when we started hiring more people that were

00:32:21.059 --> 00:32:23.559
our age, they were people who had completely

00:32:23.559 --> 00:32:26.140
different life experiences than us. You know,

00:32:26.140 --> 00:32:30.319
I spent my early 20s driving around on Colfax

00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:32.000
in an ambulance and there were other people who

00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:35.299
had different jobs. And then we have since time

00:32:35.299 --> 00:32:38.180
kind of coalesced into a single profession with

00:32:38.180 --> 00:32:40.700
two different upbringings. I have no idea if

00:32:40.700 --> 00:32:43.400
I said that. correctly or if it made sense but

00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:45.720
that's something that you know i i think about

00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:48.599
when in my role as a battalion chief like i'm

00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:51.519
the youngest battalion chief that we have and

00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:55.779
i have people who are the same age as me uh who

00:32:55.779 --> 00:32:57.900
are new firefighters and that's just a different

00:32:57.900 --> 00:33:01.279
a different perspective um and definitely something

00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:03.440
you know kind of worth unpacking down the road

00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:09.859
as as we all grow together it's Interesting.

00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:13.000
So when I reflect back, that older generation

00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:18.319
were the ones that I learned to retain the kindness,

00:33:18.339 --> 00:33:21.619
compassion, community that had brought me into

00:33:21.619 --> 00:33:24.200
uniform in the first place. And so whether it

00:33:24.200 --> 00:33:28.279
was an entire station rotating to renovate a

00:33:28.279 --> 00:33:32.480
firefighter's house that was hit during a traffic

00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:35.039
accident, he was working and got nailed by a

00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:38.160
car. Hialeah, I saw that. Anaheim, I saw that.

00:33:39.669 --> 00:33:42.089
Anaheim, you know, they would put money together,

00:33:42.170 --> 00:33:44.490
buy a bunch of toys and we would go to some of

00:33:44.490 --> 00:33:46.369
the, you know, the places we've been on calls

00:33:46.369 --> 00:33:48.170
or we noticed that there was definitely, you

00:33:48.170 --> 00:33:49.890
know, family that was struggling with money.

00:33:50.869 --> 00:33:53.269
And then, you know, you progress forward now

00:33:53.269 --> 00:33:55.390
and I'm not just picking on the fire service,

00:33:55.410 --> 00:33:58.250
you know, look at just the kind of overall conversation

00:33:58.250 --> 00:34:00.829
that we get from. you know, whether it's politics

00:34:00.829 --> 00:34:03.269
or whatever it is, and you're hearing conversations

00:34:03.269 --> 00:34:06.329
of like, oh, this bum, you know, Narcan's wasted

00:34:06.329 --> 00:34:09.530
on these addicts, et cetera, et cetera. Through

00:34:09.530 --> 00:34:13.510
your perspective, where has that shift happened

00:34:13.510 --> 00:34:16.590
that we've got away? In some areas, because I

00:34:16.590 --> 00:34:19.010
mean, there are some people that have held on

00:34:19.010 --> 00:34:21.510
tightly to this, but we as a culture seem to

00:34:21.510 --> 00:34:24.250
have got away from the very kindness, compassion,

00:34:24.510 --> 00:34:27.429
empathy that is the root of this job. And some

00:34:27.429 --> 00:34:29.409
of them are just, you know, I call them out all

00:34:29.409 --> 00:34:30.949
the time. You bought yourself a leather helmet,

00:34:31.010 --> 00:34:32.989
you grew a mustache and you're all about fire

00:34:32.989 --> 00:34:36.250
and fuck EMS and rah, rah, rah, you know, and

00:34:36.250 --> 00:34:39.030
you're a fucking idiot. And then you've got the

00:34:39.030 --> 00:34:41.449
kind of compassion fatigue type two that are

00:34:41.449 --> 00:34:45.300
just the burnout medic firefighter. How have

00:34:45.300 --> 00:34:48.800
we lost that? And how do we go back to the very

00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:53.739
core of the fire service of EMS, which is to

00:34:53.739 --> 00:34:57.800
help people, pure and simple? Well, I think not

00:34:57.800 --> 00:35:02.039
doing it 40 times, 40 times a set probably helps

00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:07.309
too. You know, I think from a... fatigue management

00:35:07.309 --> 00:35:09.530
or a load management perspective. Now that I'm

00:35:09.530 --> 00:35:11.829
like a grownup, I'm like, oh man, they call that,

00:35:11.909 --> 00:35:14.010
you know, they have risk mitigation strategies

00:35:14.010 --> 00:35:16.489
and, you know, fatigue management systems and

00:35:16.489 --> 00:35:19.510
all these fancy things. I think it's, you know,

00:35:19.530 --> 00:35:22.010
a couple of different angles on it. I think we

00:35:22.010 --> 00:35:24.889
need to not, you know, I think from the story

00:35:24.889 --> 00:35:27.190
of Sisyphus, we need to not push the rock up

00:35:27.190 --> 00:35:29.809
the hill so many times, because I think that

00:35:29.809 --> 00:35:32.730
that can lead to burnout. And then that starts

00:35:32.730 --> 00:35:34.949
you off on the wrong path when you're needing

00:35:34.949 --> 00:35:37.639
to do it. as often as we're doing it. I also

00:35:37.639 --> 00:35:40.599
think, you know, I think about like social media

00:35:40.599 --> 00:35:43.260
and how easy it is to say something mean, how

00:35:43.260 --> 00:35:47.539
it's easy to just chip at somebody. Whereas before

00:35:47.539 --> 00:35:49.519
you had to, you know, look in the, look them

00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:50.900
in the eye or write them a letter when you were

00:35:50.900 --> 00:35:53.079
mad at them. And now you don't get to do that.

00:35:53.139 --> 00:35:55.579
You can, you know, you can say 30 mean things

00:35:55.579 --> 00:35:57.980
in a minute, whereas it was more difficult to

00:35:57.980 --> 00:36:02.760
be mean in the past. So I do think, you know,

00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:05.360
it is, I think there are a lot of reasons for

00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:08.159
it. I don't think we are as humans inherently

00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:11.480
wanting to be that way. But I think the societal

00:36:11.480 --> 00:36:15.500
pressure of, you know, paying, you know, the

00:36:15.500 --> 00:36:18.019
exorbitant amount of money for housing in any

00:36:18.019 --> 00:36:20.380
kind of metropolitan area, there adds these other

00:36:20.380 --> 00:36:24.119
micro stresses that eventually pile up into one

00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:27.760
big deal that, you know, make it difficult. to

00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:30.400
be kind in the world in which we live. I mean,

00:36:30.420 --> 00:36:32.880
from the top level of what we're doing here in

00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:35.480
this human experience, we've got people who have

00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:38.019
made a lot of money and gained a lot of power

00:36:38.019 --> 00:36:40.539
saying mean things to other people. So I think

00:36:40.539 --> 00:36:44.460
when you have kind of those role models, it makes

00:36:44.460 --> 00:36:46.619
it easy to give yourself the excuse to not be

00:36:46.619 --> 00:36:50.940
kind. Yeah. And that bums me out. Well, it'd

00:36:50.940 --> 00:36:53.760
be really good if people created a religion where

00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:56.860
the prophet was like a really kind person. Maybe

00:36:56.860 --> 00:37:00.619
that would help. Yeah, just be cool, man. It

00:37:00.619 --> 00:37:02.659
could guide us to not be a dick. But anyway.

00:37:02.840 --> 00:37:04.719
There's got to be something out there. Maybe

00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:09.519
a book or two about it. I don't know. All right.

00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:11.300
Well, then let's kind of circle back. So you

00:37:11.300 --> 00:37:13.900
have this basis in neuroscience. You're progressing

00:37:13.900 --> 00:37:16.860
now through the fire service. You've definitely

00:37:16.860 --> 00:37:20.940
been exposed to these high up -tempo stations

00:37:20.940 --> 00:37:26.150
and rigs. When did you start seeing... the workload

00:37:26.150 --> 00:37:29.949
the work week issues as far as detrimental in

00:37:29.949 --> 00:37:31.969
your own personal career and then how did that

00:37:31.969 --> 00:37:37.590
send you to the research side yeah um shoot well

00:37:37.590 --> 00:37:40.010
i think it's like kind of the frog in the pot

00:37:40.010 --> 00:37:44.070
situation you don't really know it until either

00:37:44.070 --> 00:37:48.090
your system or the promotional process or uh

00:37:48.090 --> 00:37:52.090
you know some sort of operational thing takes

00:37:52.090 --> 00:37:55.690
you out of that pot and for me i took the lieutenant's

00:37:55.690 --> 00:38:01.329
test in like 2016 or something and like i left

00:38:01.329 --> 00:38:04.230
station one and i went into our ems training

00:38:04.230 --> 00:38:06.949
division which was a new position at the time

00:38:06.949 --> 00:38:10.869
and looking back on it i was like holy crap man

00:38:10.869 --> 00:38:13.610
i was i was burned out and i never realized it

00:38:13.610 --> 00:38:16.369
because it was this you know i was reference

00:38:16.369 --> 00:38:19.460
uh the rapper tech nine. And I said, you know,

00:38:19.460 --> 00:38:21.679
his album misery loves company was literally

00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:24.780
what it was like living up there. You know, you,

00:38:24.860 --> 00:38:28.260
you're listening to music at 11, you're driving

00:38:28.260 --> 00:38:30.860
around with the windows down and all night, you

00:38:30.860 --> 00:38:34.420
know, just having fun. being awesome. Like I

00:38:34.420 --> 00:38:36.639
said, breaking stuff, going on all the cool calls.

00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:38.480
And then once you're out of it, you're like,

00:38:38.559 --> 00:38:40.619
wow, that was a great time in my life that I

00:38:40.619 --> 00:38:44.719
never want to have to do again. And so you move

00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:48.800
and you change situations. I was in a role where

00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:52.780
I was able to sleep at night. I was able to really

00:38:52.780 --> 00:38:56.179
focus my creativity and my energy on trying to

00:38:56.179 --> 00:38:59.380
build a EMS learning platform and making sure,

00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:01.579
you know, at that time we're rolling out a whole

00:39:01.579 --> 00:39:04.079
bunch of new stuff. And I felt like reinvigorated

00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:08.179
intellectually in that spot and having the bandwidth

00:39:08.179 --> 00:39:11.900
to do that allowed me to kind of flourish in

00:39:11.900 --> 00:39:15.280
that spot. And, you know, we need people who

00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:18.539
are. wanting to run calls, wanting to be busy,

00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:20.699
wanting to do all the cool stuff. But we also

00:39:20.699 --> 00:39:23.599
need the people who have that distance to help

00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:26.639
people in those roles maybe realize a little

00:39:26.639 --> 00:39:29.300
bit earlier in their careers when it's time to

00:39:29.300 --> 00:39:32.099
hit pause for a second, rotate out, find something

00:39:32.099 --> 00:39:34.559
else that's stimulating. And I think that's,

00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:37.400
I always say again about our profession, you

00:39:37.400 --> 00:39:40.059
can have one career, but have 20 different jobs

00:39:40.059 --> 00:39:42.670
inside of it. You know, whether it be every day,

00:39:42.690 --> 00:39:44.349
you know, any different role you can have, you

00:39:44.349 --> 00:39:46.070
can go to the bureau, you can go to risk reduction,

00:39:46.289 --> 00:39:49.329
you can go to investigations or you can go to

00:39:49.329 --> 00:39:52.210
the FI route. You can get into training of all

00:39:52.210 --> 00:39:54.510
these different things that you can do without

00:39:54.510 --> 00:39:57.429
ever having to leave the seniority or the accumulated

00:39:57.429 --> 00:40:01.130
leaves or the, you know, the salary that we get

00:40:01.130 --> 00:40:04.550
and find that joy again, just doing something

00:40:04.550 --> 00:40:09.940
different still on the same team. I don't know

00:40:09.940 --> 00:40:12.860
if I answered your question. You did, but let

00:40:12.860 --> 00:40:15.880
me dovetail again. So you're out now, you're

00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:18.460
enjoying this, as you said, this kind of nine

00:40:18.460 --> 00:40:22.139
to five work week now, you're realizing that

00:40:22.139 --> 00:40:24.699
obviously there's a difference between not sleeping

00:40:24.699 --> 00:40:27.880
for 48 hours and what you're working now. How

00:40:27.880 --> 00:40:31.659
did that then kind of make you start taking a

00:40:31.659 --> 00:40:34.719
step back and looking at the way? your department

00:40:34.719 --> 00:40:37.179
was being worked, whether it was the actual number

00:40:37.179 --> 00:40:40.280
of calls, the hours that you work, and then what

00:40:40.280 --> 00:40:42.440
made you kind of want to start kind of finding

00:40:42.440 --> 00:40:46.079
solutions to that issue? Yeah, I think, you know,

00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:48.900
once I was in those roles, I moved or I moved

00:40:48.900 --> 00:40:51.480
from our training division into our safety and

00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:56.170
medical officer. And then from there to our one

00:40:56.170 --> 00:40:59.230
of our truck and hazmat houses. And I saw that

00:40:59.230 --> 00:41:02.550
the camaraderie could still exist without just

00:41:02.550 --> 00:41:05.449
having to be busy for busyness's sake. And that

00:41:05.449 --> 00:41:08.710
was, you know, finding that joy of learning.

00:41:08.789 --> 00:41:11.190
I'm not going to say joy of going back to hazmat

00:41:11.190 --> 00:41:14.210
school because that was that would be a lie.

00:41:14.329 --> 00:41:17.090
But, you know, the camaraderie of being in a.

00:41:17.610 --> 00:41:20.670
uh you know uh dual company house having seven

00:41:20.670 --> 00:41:24.269
people in the station you know it was at the

00:41:24.269 --> 00:41:27.710
beginning of covid and you know then uh that

00:41:27.710 --> 00:41:31.130
was a completely different world um but you know

00:41:31.130 --> 00:41:33.210
having that that small group of people that we

00:41:33.210 --> 00:41:35.090
kind of circled up on and found passion about

00:41:35.090 --> 00:41:38.309
our job and i worked with uh one of my best friends

00:41:38.309 --> 00:41:42.079
who's just an amazing uh fire officer you know

00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:45.860
seeing his passion for what we did and by being

00:41:45.860 --> 00:41:48.860
at a station where you could focus on the craft

00:41:48.860 --> 00:41:52.280
focus on our job focus on you know getting better

00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:55.340
every set instead of just surviving every set

00:41:55.340 --> 00:41:59.920
uh was was amazing um it was great and to be

00:41:59.920 --> 00:42:02.280
around people who loved what they did they were

00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:05.400
super passionate about it that made me better

00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:09.699
at my job as a you know as a relatively new lieutenant

00:42:09.699 --> 00:42:14.619
um so you know to to answer your question being

00:42:14.619 --> 00:42:18.019
in the on the day's assignment was was great

00:42:18.019 --> 00:42:21.920
for a lot of reasons but it's man there's just

00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:23.760
nothing as cool as riding around on a fire truck

00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:29.079
so to find a way to make that system great and

00:42:29.079 --> 00:42:31.900
tolerable from a you know a workload management

00:42:31.900 --> 00:42:36.599
perspective became like kind of my passion, understanding

00:42:36.599 --> 00:42:41.380
the physiology behind what we do for two days

00:42:41.380 --> 00:42:46.039
at a time and the skills that we need. And in

00:42:46.039 --> 00:42:48.860
my opinion, we lack to recover on those days

00:42:48.860 --> 00:42:53.019
off then became kind of, you know, for in truth,

00:42:53.079 --> 00:42:55.539
kind of the mission of what I found my next job

00:42:55.539 --> 00:42:58.619
in the fire department would be, um, was doing

00:42:58.619 --> 00:43:04.059
that. So, yeah. So how did that kind of unfold

00:43:04.059 --> 00:43:06.360
then? So you had this kind of aha moment, you

00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:08.360
know, what was the first area that you started

00:43:08.360 --> 00:43:10.320
looking into? And what was some of the issues

00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:14.000
that identified that were, you know, preventable

00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:18.139
that were changeable? That's it, man, that's

00:43:18.139 --> 00:43:20.000
a tough question. Because again, like so many

00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:22.099
of these things just happen incrementally over

00:43:22.099 --> 00:43:24.300
career, so many different, you know, this isn't

00:43:24.300 --> 00:43:27.420
like, you know, we always seem to say, Oh, we

00:43:27.420 --> 00:43:30.079
wait for some tragic event to happen before we

00:43:30.079 --> 00:43:34.489
do anything. And You know, we have had, you know,

00:43:34.489 --> 00:43:36.570
some issues at our fire department with people

00:43:36.570 --> 00:43:38.570
who had sleep issues and things like that. But

00:43:38.570 --> 00:43:40.289
I don't know that I'm informed enough to make

00:43:40.289 --> 00:43:43.050
a call on, you know, this is what caused that.

00:43:43.730 --> 00:43:47.630
We've obviously had quite a few job related cancers.

00:43:47.630 --> 00:43:49.130
And unfortunately, we've had a couple people

00:43:49.130 --> 00:43:51.889
pass away because of job related cancers. But

00:43:51.889 --> 00:43:53.809
we see all these things. And it's like, I didn't

00:43:53.809 --> 00:43:57.360
really realize how much I wanted to. make a difference

00:43:57.360 --> 00:43:59.440
in this stuff or even just understand this stuff

00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:02.500
until i had kids like that was the biggest change

00:44:02.500 --> 00:44:05.760
in my life because before you have kids you can

00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:09.119
be busy at work come home and turn on netflix

00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:11.920
and not move for four days you know what i mean

00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:14.780
like there is no one who needs anything from

00:44:14.780 --> 00:44:17.360
you and then as soon as you have kids it's a

00:44:17.360 --> 00:44:21.659
whole new world and you're you know you're working

00:44:21.659 --> 00:44:26.500
you're working to just get through the day with

00:44:26.500 --> 00:44:28.719
little kids. And you're just like, you know,

00:44:28.739 --> 00:44:30.619
you go from being sleep deprived at work to being

00:44:30.619 --> 00:44:33.119
sleep deprived at home. There's no reprieve.

00:44:33.420 --> 00:44:35.460
And then I'm like, wow, in this season of my

00:44:35.460 --> 00:44:38.980
life, I am very tired. And so I think that's,

00:44:38.980 --> 00:44:41.800
you know, when my first daughter was born in

00:44:41.800 --> 00:44:45.599
2018, like that's when it was like, man, I am

00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:48.199
beat and we should do something about it or at

00:44:48.199 --> 00:44:50.960
least understand it better. So, yeah, I don't

00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:52.679
know if that's a segue to talking about kids,

00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:56.340
but that's like kind of my. My reason is that

00:44:56.340 --> 00:44:59.119
I want to be a present and good dad when I can

00:44:59.119 --> 00:45:02.019
be home. That's a great segue. I know we were

00:45:02.019 --> 00:45:04.280
hitting this before we hit record, but this is

00:45:04.280 --> 00:45:07.280
what I've said. I was in for 14 years and then

00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:10.420
another seven after I... stop getting paid to

00:45:10.420 --> 00:45:15.280
help the fire service. But all that time, the

00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:18.699
negotiations were always a dollar raise, 50 cent

00:45:18.699 --> 00:45:21.219
raise, whatever it was. And I realized that we've

00:45:21.219 --> 00:45:23.260
been chasing the wrong currency for so long.

00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:25.960
The currency that is actually valuable to us

00:45:25.960 --> 00:45:29.860
is time with our family, full stop. And as we've

00:45:29.860 --> 00:45:33.750
regressed this last 10 years. that has been stolen

00:45:33.750 --> 00:45:35.550
from us more and more and more, whether it's

00:45:35.550 --> 00:45:37.869
just not advancing the work week, which we'll

00:45:37.869 --> 00:45:41.670
get to, or the recruitment crisis creating mandatory

00:45:41.670 --> 00:45:44.250
or volunteer overtime, because that's a skewed

00:45:44.250 --> 00:45:46.750
perspective as well. A lot of us sign up for

00:45:46.750 --> 00:45:48.190
overtime because we don't want our friend to

00:45:48.190 --> 00:45:51.190
get hit. So it's still technically mandatory

00:45:51.190 --> 00:45:54.929
overtime. So you have children. How did that

00:45:54.929 --> 00:45:58.110
change the way you view the number of hours that

00:45:58.110 --> 00:46:01.630
you weren't present at home? It was hard. And

00:46:01.630 --> 00:46:05.909
it's, you know, I think my wife, bless her heart,

00:46:05.969 --> 00:46:09.369
she has to run the show while I'm gone. And it

00:46:09.369 --> 00:46:12.329
is not an easy or graceful show. I don't know

00:46:12.329 --> 00:46:14.949
how many times we've had to FaceTime with somebody

00:46:14.949 --> 00:46:16.829
with an ear infection and we're trying to juggle

00:46:16.829 --> 00:46:21.440
sick time. And, you know, it is brutal. Having

00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:24.800
kids is the hardest, but also the most rewarding

00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:27.159
thing I've ever done with my life. To see what

00:46:27.159 --> 00:46:29.880
they do, the crap that they come up with, the

00:46:29.880 --> 00:46:32.699
things that they know. I mean, we're real heavy

00:46:32.699 --> 00:46:34.480
into Wild Kratts right now. I don't know if you

00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:37.320
guys have enjoyed the Wild Kratts on PBS Kids

00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:40.900
app. But my daughter, the one who starts first

00:46:40.900 --> 00:46:43.639
grade tomorrow. stuff that she comes up with

00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:45.340
i'm like where the hell did you learn these facts

00:46:45.340 --> 00:46:49.039
man and she's like so dialed in and like you

00:46:49.039 --> 00:46:51.719
know it's just it's hard to miss some of those

00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:53.679
moments and i when we were talking before you

00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:56.579
know i mentioned it like i missed uh while i

00:46:56.579 --> 00:46:59.300
was at work uh the first time reese ever lost

00:46:59.300 --> 00:47:01.900
a tooth when i wasn't home happened while i was

00:47:01.900 --> 00:47:04.699
at work and i was like oh my gosh this just doesn't

00:47:04.699 --> 00:47:07.699
seem you know it's not fair to have to you know

00:47:07.699 --> 00:47:09.239
put that thing back in your mouth till i get

00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:14.219
home So you miss things like that. And you wonder

00:47:14.219 --> 00:47:18.199
how the system can be kinder to people and young

00:47:18.199 --> 00:47:23.599
parents. And so those are the things that you

00:47:23.599 --> 00:47:26.219
miss. And for a while, we'll be able to say that

00:47:26.219 --> 00:47:28.880
Santa comes on the 23rd because kids are dumb

00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:30.280
and they don't know what day of the week it is

00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:34.980
anyway. But that only works for so long. And

00:47:34.980 --> 00:47:37.179
so I think we're very lucky that we can trade

00:47:37.179 --> 00:47:42.300
shifts. The use vacation where you can or self

00:47:42.300 --> 00:47:43.960
-care leave or, you know, the different leaves

00:47:43.960 --> 00:47:47.039
that you've banked to try and target, you know,

00:47:47.039 --> 00:47:50.039
important dates. But but it's hard. And being

00:47:50.039 --> 00:47:55.000
gone as long as we are, like I was saying before,

00:47:55.179 --> 00:47:58.489
like I went from when I was on a. day's assignment,

00:47:58.590 --> 00:48:01.650
I went from being like a co -parent to now I

00:48:01.650 --> 00:48:04.030
show up and I'm like, oh, we've got new rules

00:48:04.030 --> 00:48:05.869
in the last two days. Turns out we're doing this

00:48:05.869 --> 00:48:08.769
now. And so, you know, it's hard because I'm

00:48:08.769 --> 00:48:10.750
also, you know, the assistant regional manager

00:48:10.750 --> 00:48:13.530
of parenting four days a week. And then I leave

00:48:13.530 --> 00:48:16.170
and then, you know, I'm missing a lot of the

00:48:16.170 --> 00:48:19.550
important things. So that's, you know, a trade

00:48:19.550 --> 00:48:22.050
-off of what we do. I think there's still, you

00:48:22.050 --> 00:48:24.050
know, the good outweighs the bad, but the question

00:48:24.050 --> 00:48:27.219
is, you know, could we do better? Yeah. No, absolutely.

00:48:27.519 --> 00:48:30.880
I remember the tooth fairy myth was debunked

00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:34.619
after I missed one morning. And then the number

00:48:34.619 --> 00:48:37.239
of times my son woke up and the elf on the shelf

00:48:37.239 --> 00:48:39.300
was still in the same place. I'm like, oh, that's

00:48:39.300 --> 00:48:41.059
weird. Let me have a word with him. And then

00:48:41.059 --> 00:48:43.159
while he goes take a shower, I'm freaking, you

00:48:43.159 --> 00:48:46.519
know, moving the elf around. So, you know, but

00:48:46.519 --> 00:48:48.460
it is it is a real thing. You know, it really

00:48:48.460 --> 00:48:51.880
is. So firstly, how long have you guys been on

00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:57.239
a 4896? We went in 2006. So a couple of years

00:48:57.239 --> 00:48:59.619
before I got hired, they were on the old one

00:48:59.619 --> 00:49:03.980
-on, one -off, one -on, one -off, four -off prior

00:49:03.980 --> 00:49:07.539
to me, but we've been doing it for a while. Okay.

00:49:07.739 --> 00:49:12.639
So what were some of the first solutions that

00:49:12.639 --> 00:49:14.960
you started looking to or the research as far

00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:17.159
as collecting data as to this? Because I mean,

00:49:17.219 --> 00:49:19.420
as we hit, you know, before we hit record again.

00:49:20.300 --> 00:49:22.300
And I've said this many, many times. There is

00:49:22.300 --> 00:49:25.239
a fine line between needing studies and just

00:49:25.239 --> 00:49:28.360
fucking common sense. And, you know, 56, 80 hours

00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:30.500
a week for the people that you ask to mitigate

00:49:30.500 --> 00:49:33.800
your very worst day in your entire life. When

00:49:33.800 --> 00:49:37.099
everyone else works 40, it's common sense. But

00:49:37.099 --> 00:49:39.820
we also work for an industry, I would argue,

00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:42.539
sometimes to put a barrier up that say, oh, but

00:49:42.539 --> 00:49:44.760
I need to see the data. So kind of when did those

00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:48.039
lines kind of start to intersect? Well, it was

00:49:48.039 --> 00:49:51.719
kind of so I had. Gotten into another grad program

00:49:51.719 --> 00:49:56.280
and we needed to come with an idea. We needed

00:49:56.280 --> 00:49:58.960
to come with a project. And this started out

00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:01.940
just kind of on a Chipotle napkin of like one

00:50:01.940 --> 00:50:05.579
of the chief Azeltine. His daughter is a very

00:50:05.579 --> 00:50:10.000
competitive bike racer. And so they had started

00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:12.519
to use biometrics when they were doing their

00:50:12.519 --> 00:50:14.400
load management work, when they were doing their

00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:17.800
training. He and I had kind of talked about the

00:50:17.800 --> 00:50:20.320
idea of like, oh, wouldn't this be cool to actually

00:50:20.320 --> 00:50:24.719
create from a public health lens, kind of this

00:50:24.719 --> 00:50:28.719
larger group study to understand the shift experience,

00:50:28.860 --> 00:50:32.420
not just while you're at work, but. in totality

00:50:32.420 --> 00:50:35.179
of when you were you know your entire experience

00:50:35.179 --> 00:50:37.840
because you know like we've talked about before

00:50:37.840 --> 00:50:39.980
like there are people with other jobs there are

00:50:39.980 --> 00:50:41.980
people with other passions there are guys who

00:50:41.980 --> 00:50:43.780
are going to go out and do the you know baja

00:50:43.780 --> 00:50:47.079
1000 on their day off and you know rev it up

00:50:47.079 --> 00:50:50.340
pretty good to the point that you know that they're

00:50:50.340 --> 00:50:52.340
not recovered to come back to work so we had

00:50:52.340 --> 00:50:56.519
all these ideas and um we were lucky we were

00:50:56.519 --> 00:50:59.380
in a really good grant window for funding um

00:50:59.380 --> 00:51:01.900
we reached out to the the colorado e -health

00:51:01.900 --> 00:51:05.940
innovation fund and um kind of talked about our

00:51:05.940 --> 00:51:07.659
project we're like oh this would be really cool

00:51:07.659 --> 00:51:09.940
we have all these existing data systems we don't

00:51:09.940 --> 00:51:13.639
really know how they all interact um and so we

00:51:13.639 --> 00:51:15.659
we reached out to them and then the colorado

00:51:15.659 --> 00:51:17.500
department of fire prevention and control also

00:51:17.500 --> 00:51:20.139
had a safety and wellness grant that we were

00:51:20.139 --> 00:51:22.559
kind of able to squish together and get the cash

00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:26.360
necessary to to kind of put this thing to to

00:51:26.360 --> 00:51:28.960
create the academic backbone that would be needed

00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:34.920
to justify um the the project itself so that's

00:51:34.920 --> 00:51:38.079
kind of the in infancy we looked at you know

00:51:38.079 --> 00:51:40.400
these strategies that high performance cycling

00:51:40.400 --> 00:51:43.960
teams were using and saying you know we ask a

00:51:43.960 --> 00:51:47.239
lot of the same things of our people we should

00:51:47.239 --> 00:51:51.719
be looking at this we should understand physiologically

00:51:51.719 --> 00:51:54.059
what people are going through doing this job.

00:51:54.780 --> 00:51:56.639
And like I said, it started on Chipotle napkin.

00:51:56.679 --> 00:51:58.579
And now here we are a couple of years later and

00:51:58.579 --> 00:52:01.840
we know more than we wanted to know. So let's

00:52:01.840 --> 00:52:04.139
start unpacking that. What was the initial hypothesis?

00:52:04.300 --> 00:52:07.239
And then what were the magnitude of the data

00:52:07.239 --> 00:52:10.980
that you started collecting? Yeah. So maybe how

00:52:10.980 --> 00:52:13.539
about we, let's roll back and let me talk about

00:52:13.539 --> 00:52:17.820
kind of the educational runway that got us to

00:52:17.820 --> 00:52:22.340
where we were. So I had done a graduate degree

00:52:22.340 --> 00:52:24.780
at the University of Colorado in public administration

00:52:24.780 --> 00:52:29.159
for public policy and hazard and disaster management.

00:52:29.300 --> 00:52:32.400
Super cool. Learned a lot about policy framework,

00:52:32.679 --> 00:52:36.059
intergovernmental work and networked a lot. And

00:52:36.059 --> 00:52:38.219
the Denver metro area met a lot of really cool

00:52:38.219 --> 00:52:40.320
people who seem to have connections that, you

00:52:40.320 --> 00:52:43.639
know, this, that or the other place. From there.

00:52:44.199 --> 00:52:46.940
i wanted to understand kind of what we were doing

00:52:46.940 --> 00:52:49.719
again at a public health perspective so i applied

00:52:49.719 --> 00:52:52.179
to and was i have no idea how it happened but

00:52:52.179 --> 00:52:54.739
i was accepted into the yale school of public

00:52:54.739 --> 00:52:58.639
health's um informatics track so it was very

00:52:58.639 --> 00:53:00.980
nerdy lots of computer stuff i had to figure

00:53:00.980 --> 00:53:03.039
out i had to like teach myself a lot of this

00:53:03.039 --> 00:53:07.929
coding stuff along the way But like I said, we

00:53:07.929 --> 00:53:10.829
needed to come with a project. And from the get

00:53:10.829 --> 00:53:14.250
-go, my sell to the district was that I wanted

00:53:14.250 --> 00:53:18.050
to create a health and wellness project for the

00:53:18.050 --> 00:53:20.309
fire service. And I wanted to use kind of the

00:53:20.309 --> 00:53:24.809
academic horsepower of the Yale system to kind

00:53:24.809 --> 00:53:28.269
of get that done. And it went far and beyond

00:53:28.269 --> 00:53:30.429
whatever I thought it could have been when I

00:53:30.429 --> 00:53:35.639
first came up with this dumb idea. year two of

00:53:35.639 --> 00:53:38.960
the program was the capstone program. And I had

00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:40.539
already had all the grant funding stuff figured

00:53:40.539 --> 00:53:42.579
out ahead of time because I knew I was coming

00:53:42.579 --> 00:53:45.400
with this project, had already done a fair bit

00:53:45.400 --> 00:53:48.139
of work, talked to Sarah and Joel, and they were

00:53:48.139 --> 00:53:51.059
kind of my mentors during the whole spool up

00:53:51.059 --> 00:53:54.840
phase. But then also to talk to eHealth Innovation,

00:53:55.239 --> 00:53:57.139
like at the end of the day, like trying to get

00:53:57.139 --> 00:54:00.079
this stuff rolling, it takes a whole bunch of

00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:01.559
different partnerships. And that's probably what

00:54:01.559 --> 00:54:04.570
I've learned most is like the, the the partnerships

00:54:04.570 --> 00:54:08.250
and the you know coming to people with different

00:54:08.250 --> 00:54:11.670
ideas and collaborating across specialties like

00:54:11.670 --> 00:54:13.809
that's really how these projects get off the

00:54:13.809 --> 00:54:18.809
ground so we were able to secure funding we went

00:54:18.809 --> 00:54:20.889
through we looked at a bunch of different types

00:54:20.889 --> 00:54:24.250
of biometrics one of the things that i wanted

00:54:24.699 --> 00:54:27.900
to do as we were going through the process and

00:54:27.900 --> 00:54:31.239
the uh independent review board process as when

00:54:31.239 --> 00:54:32.960
they were studying you know looking at our and

00:54:32.960 --> 00:54:36.320
evaluating our protocol we needed to have a way

00:54:36.320 --> 00:54:39.619
to disassociate the user from the data so they

00:54:39.619 --> 00:54:41.500
didn't use the data to inform their decision

00:54:41.500 --> 00:54:44.579
making process during during the the measurement

00:54:44.579 --> 00:54:48.760
window but You couldn't do that unless you had

00:54:48.760 --> 00:54:50.739
the right biometric that would allow you to blind

00:54:50.739 --> 00:54:53.400
people and then also turn it into a wellness

00:54:53.400 --> 00:54:56.940
device on the other end. So we looked at a bunch,

00:54:56.980 --> 00:54:59.380
we talked to a bunch of people. We ended up just,

00:54:59.460 --> 00:55:03.380
we went with Whoop for that reason. Whoops, you

00:55:03.380 --> 00:55:06.179
know, they've been fantastic to work with. They

00:55:06.179 --> 00:55:09.099
let us blind people. So for the first four weeks

00:55:09.099 --> 00:55:13.789
of the, no. 40 day, 38 days of the project, everyone

00:55:13.789 --> 00:55:16.090
was blinded. So they couldn't use the app to

00:55:16.090 --> 00:55:18.909
inform their decision -making. So they were blinded,

00:55:18.909 --> 00:55:22.230
the whoops calibrated to their baseline. And

00:55:22.230 --> 00:55:24.809
then, you know, we measured everything we needed

00:55:24.809 --> 00:55:27.250
to, and then we just let it rip. So part of it

00:55:27.250 --> 00:55:30.469
was also finding a tool that could also be used

00:55:30.469 --> 00:55:35.050
as a, as a wellness device along the way. Yeah.

00:55:35.190 --> 00:55:38.530
And that, that was good because, you know, there's

00:55:38.530 --> 00:55:41.289
a lot. The measurements that we were taking,

00:55:41.449 --> 00:55:45.750
because I think the PPGs and the different sensors

00:55:45.750 --> 00:55:47.690
that they have are usually somewhere between

00:55:47.690 --> 00:55:51.349
60 % and 70 % accurate at actually understanding

00:55:51.349 --> 00:55:55.309
what actual sleep cycle you were in. It's 60

00:55:55.309 --> 00:55:58.289
% or 70 % accurate. But when you zoom out and

00:55:58.289 --> 00:56:00.570
you look at creating a biometric program at a

00:56:00.570 --> 00:56:03.210
population level, you're able to make these kind

00:56:03.210 --> 00:56:06.929
of population inferences that wouldn't be as

00:56:06.929 --> 00:56:10.619
easy at the individual level. Sorry, that got

00:56:10.619 --> 00:56:13.639
way in the weeds. No, no, it's good. But yeah,

00:56:13.699 --> 00:56:15.920
Professor Russell Foster was saying that. He's

00:56:15.920 --> 00:56:19.280
like, you know, these wearables absolutely have

00:56:19.280 --> 00:56:21.860
application. And obviously everything from sheer

00:56:21.860 --> 00:56:24.820
movement to HRV, there's some great metrics in

00:56:24.820 --> 00:56:28.219
there. But he was saying even an EEG is kind

00:56:28.219 --> 00:56:30.739
of like junk science. And that's when you've

00:56:30.739 --> 00:56:33.900
got electrodes stuck to your head. So a watch

00:56:33.900 --> 00:56:36.320
or a ring saying that they told you that you

00:56:36.320 --> 00:56:38.219
were in deep sleep for this amount of time, they're

00:56:38.219 --> 00:56:40.960
like, no, that's not the case. But like you said,

00:56:41.079 --> 00:56:44.860
if you can look at the other metrics on a broader

00:56:44.860 --> 00:56:48.179
scale and not zoom into that, which is one of

00:56:48.179 --> 00:56:50.820
the downside of wearables is guys freak out because

00:56:50.820 --> 00:56:52.659
their watch told them they didn't sleep properly.

00:56:53.659 --> 00:56:56.500
Then I can see like from a larger scale how that

00:56:56.500 --> 00:56:58.960
data would be able to help a lot. Well, and I

00:56:58.960 --> 00:57:01.960
also think like when you think about actual sleep

00:57:01.960 --> 00:57:04.860
versus sleep opportunity then you can start looking

00:57:04.860 --> 00:57:08.559
at um you know sleep consistency information

00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:11.780
do you have systems that are in place that are

00:57:11.780 --> 00:57:16.039
hindering uh the opportunity for sleep and that

00:57:16.039 --> 00:57:18.780
goes into like this whole larger fire department

00:57:18.780 --> 00:57:22.360
ecosystem of what are you doing to not run lift

00:57:22.360 --> 00:57:25.139
assist what are you doing to proactively reach

00:57:25.139 --> 00:57:27.860
out to nursing homes what are you doing to stop

00:57:28.219 --> 00:57:30.519
the calls before they even happen? You know,

00:57:30.539 --> 00:57:32.460
what is your community risk reduction strategy?

00:57:32.960 --> 00:57:36.000
Because the call that never happens allows people

00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:39.039
to have more consistent sleep. You know, so there's

00:57:39.039 --> 00:57:41.280
all these different interdisciplinary things

00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:43.900
that we can do, you know, specifically to the

00:57:43.900 --> 00:57:46.739
biometrics. I also think we need to look at trends

00:57:46.739 --> 00:57:49.380
over time. When you have an intervention, can

00:57:49.380 --> 00:57:52.360
you measure a pre and post? And then are you

00:57:52.360 --> 00:57:55.099
able to demonstrate value? Can you create not

00:57:55.099 --> 00:57:57.300
just correlation, but actual draw causation?

00:57:57.719 --> 00:58:01.739
to what you're doing. And luckily, when you require

00:58:01.739 --> 00:58:04.079
somebody to show up to work for two days a week

00:58:04.079 --> 00:58:06.579
and then go home for four days a week, you have

00:58:06.579 --> 00:58:10.900
a very static system that you can look at and

00:58:10.900 --> 00:58:13.280
actually see what you do, the impact that it

00:58:13.280 --> 00:58:17.539
has. So what was the difference between the data

00:58:17.539 --> 00:58:20.360
of the tactical athletes in the fire department

00:58:20.360 --> 00:58:22.780
and say, for example, the data of the cycling

00:58:22.780 --> 00:58:26.820
athlete that was also being monitored? I have

00:58:26.820 --> 00:58:32.019
no idea, honestly. Like the cycling team, they

00:58:32.019 --> 00:58:35.099
just used it as their platform for decision making

00:58:35.099 --> 00:58:37.639
on when they were going to do hard workouts and

00:58:37.639 --> 00:58:40.340
spool up and things like that. And I think they

00:58:40.340 --> 00:58:42.519
also use it a lot for tapering, you know, to

00:58:42.519 --> 00:58:44.519
make sure that you've got that you're primed.

00:58:44.860 --> 00:58:48.119
when it's game time for us i think we were trying

00:58:48.119 --> 00:58:50.679
to look for it from a perspective of having a

00:58:50.679 --> 00:58:53.360
built -in fitness tracker something with wellness

00:58:53.360 --> 00:58:56.420
information already built into it a way to monitor

00:58:56.420 --> 00:59:00.219
and aggregate the data remotely at scale and

00:59:00.219 --> 00:59:03.320
then also use this as a validated bet you know

00:59:03.320 --> 00:59:06.139
data set for down the road if we change anything

00:59:06.139 --> 00:59:08.780
like how do we compare it to our pre and post

00:59:08.780 --> 00:59:11.980
so that we can demonstrate value and and ultimately

00:59:11.980 --> 00:59:14.739
how can we educate our people in the broader

00:59:14.739 --> 00:59:18.599
fire service of what we learned. Our little one

00:59:18.599 --> 00:59:21.460
-off study, it's cool, but it's even cooler to

00:59:21.460 --> 00:59:24.539
see people take our framework and scale it at

00:59:24.539 --> 00:59:28.079
the national level, which has been really awesome.

00:59:28.760 --> 00:59:30.960
Were you able to compare and contrast, though,

00:59:31.000 --> 00:59:35.219
to a population that was athletic and slept every

00:59:35.219 --> 00:59:39.369
night? Kind of. So when we were doing our pilot

00:59:39.369 --> 00:59:41.530
study, so when we were deciding whether or not

00:59:41.530 --> 00:59:44.650
it would be ethically responsible to or financially

00:59:44.650 --> 00:59:48.429
prudent to scale our study, we did a pilot with

00:59:48.429 --> 00:59:52.090
12 people. So we compared half of our people

00:59:52.090 --> 00:59:55.710
were administrative employees who were on the

00:59:55.710 --> 00:59:58.510
40 -hour week, and then half of them were people

00:59:58.510 --> 01:00:00.750
who were in the firehouses. And that doesn't,

01:00:00.750 --> 01:00:03.260
you know, equally, they're not. the same people

01:00:03.260 --> 01:00:06.019
because our average age of people who were in

01:00:06.019 --> 01:00:08.519
administrative roles were older so it's not really

01:00:08.519 --> 01:00:10.699
an apples to apples but when we looked at it

01:00:10.699 --> 01:00:14.219
every domain we measured from a sleep perspective

01:00:14.219 --> 01:00:19.119
from a caloric output from you know their algorithmic

01:00:19.119 --> 01:00:23.599
recovery calculation they were all statistically

01:00:23.599 --> 01:00:25.739
different these were two completely different

01:00:25.739 --> 01:00:29.159
populations we were looking at so we felt valid

01:00:29.159 --> 01:00:32.440
in scaling our study to look at the entire fire

01:00:32.440 --> 01:00:35.840
department or as many people as we could um get

01:00:35.840 --> 01:00:39.800
these biometrics for so we were very very sure

01:00:39.800 --> 01:00:41.800
that these were two different populations the

01:00:41.800 --> 01:00:45.320
the lay population of people who were once athletes

01:00:45.320 --> 01:00:48.820
and still semi -athletes but also look at spreadsheets

01:00:48.820 --> 01:00:52.039
and write emails um and then you know our people

01:00:52.039 --> 01:00:55.280
uh on the engines two different people two different

01:00:55.280 --> 01:00:57.280
groups of people so we felt good about scaling

01:00:57.280 --> 01:01:01.260
so what about the metrics that were showing that

01:01:01.260 --> 01:01:04.199
it was detrimental working the workload and the

01:01:04.199 --> 01:01:07.099
work week that they were working. Yeah. So we,

01:01:07.179 --> 01:01:10.500
um, what was cool is our, our system architecture

01:01:10.500 --> 01:01:14.679
took our staffing platform. So we use, um, vector

01:01:14.679 --> 01:01:18.000
staffing on the other end. We also used our,

01:01:18.099 --> 01:01:22.500
um, like our HR data set. So we could see who

01:01:22.500 --> 01:01:26.340
was on what apparatus at any given point. Um,

01:01:26.460 --> 01:01:28.949
again, at the, the aggregate level so it would

01:01:28.949 --> 01:01:31.510
be really hard to drill in you know the way we

01:01:31.510 --> 01:01:35.250
set up our our system privacy was such that um

01:01:35.250 --> 01:01:37.469
you know you couldn't just like pull up and be

01:01:37.469 --> 01:01:38.969
like oh i wonder what this guy's doing today

01:01:38.969 --> 01:01:41.869
it was more at an aggregate level of like what

01:01:41.869 --> 01:01:44.570
is the experience of a firefighter on medics

01:01:44.570 --> 01:01:48.510
you know medic 7 today um or not even today but

01:01:48.840 --> 01:01:52.739
across the study period. So we were able to get

01:01:52.739 --> 01:01:55.340
so granular because we were able to have all

01:01:55.340 --> 01:01:57.800
these different systems talk to each other. So

01:01:57.800 --> 01:02:02.659
we brought in the call, the RMS side, the staffing

01:02:02.659 --> 01:02:05.519
side. We brought in the biometrics. And then

01:02:05.519 --> 01:02:08.280
we also brought in, we used Joel's emergency

01:02:08.280 --> 01:02:11.380
services sleep diary to start to add a layer

01:02:11.380 --> 01:02:15.019
of qualitative data to understand what are people's

01:02:15.019 --> 01:02:18.460
perception of fatigue? What is their... perception

01:02:18.460 --> 01:02:21.440
of how hard they worked the day before what's

01:02:21.440 --> 01:02:24.360
their perception of stress and anxiety? And then

01:02:24.360 --> 01:02:27.380
how does it tie into their biometrics? What is

01:02:27.380 --> 01:02:29.380
their heart rate variability doing the day after?

01:02:29.539 --> 01:02:31.599
And then also what was their call experience?

01:02:31.920 --> 01:02:34.619
And then we also had longitudinal data across

01:02:34.619 --> 01:02:37.219
their shift to see, man, these guys are really

01:02:37.219 --> 01:02:39.820
busy at night. How did that impact their perception

01:02:39.820 --> 01:02:43.039
of stress the next morning versus these people

01:02:43.039 --> 01:02:45.320
were evenly spread out throughout the night,

01:02:45.380 --> 01:02:47.519
maybe ran the same number of calls, but just

01:02:47.519 --> 01:02:50.079
spread out over longer. What is their perception?

01:02:50.880 --> 01:02:53.360
So we added in that qualitative layer that I

01:02:53.360 --> 01:02:57.159
think also makes our data set translatable across

01:02:57.159 --> 01:02:59.380
some of the other research that's happening.

01:03:01.139 --> 01:03:03.960
But we were able also to slice and dice our set

01:03:03.960 --> 01:03:06.460
based on the apparatus you were assigned to.

01:03:06.619 --> 01:03:09.219
We know people on the ambulances are just getting

01:03:09.219 --> 01:03:13.099
their asses punched every single night. People

01:03:13.099 --> 01:03:15.519
on the engine, a little bit better. People on

01:03:15.519 --> 01:03:17.699
our truck companies, some of them were sleeping

01:03:17.699 --> 01:03:22.539
as good at home as they do. at at work but also

01:03:22.539 --> 01:03:24.380
when they're awake at night they're awake for

01:03:24.380 --> 01:03:28.360
a lot longer and their skill set is you know

01:03:28.360 --> 01:03:30.880
it needs to be excellent every time they're doing

01:03:30.880 --> 01:03:34.739
what they specialize in um and one other interesting

01:03:34.739 --> 01:03:37.119
thing is we also looked at tenure so how long

01:03:37.119 --> 01:03:39.440
you've been doing the job as well as your age

01:03:39.440 --> 01:03:43.019
and what kind of was interesting in our data

01:03:43.019 --> 01:03:45.539
set we actually learned that some of the slower

01:03:45.539 --> 01:03:48.619
stations who have more senior people experience

01:03:49.530 --> 01:03:52.570
um issues with their sleep as well and is that

01:03:52.570 --> 01:03:54.869
you know that's just ask more questions is it

01:03:54.869 --> 01:03:57.510
a problem with the station design is it the way

01:03:57.510 --> 01:04:00.230
that their stations laid out is it because they've

01:04:00.230 --> 01:04:03.570
had 20 years of having shitty sleep because of

01:04:03.570 --> 01:04:05.150
what they did when they were assigned to busy

01:04:05.150 --> 01:04:08.289
stations but that was one thing that really surprised

01:04:08.289 --> 01:04:10.610
us when we actually started looking at our information

01:04:10.610 --> 01:04:13.510
is how there's across the board we have people

01:04:13.510 --> 01:04:15.949
with sleep issues it just depends on how long

01:04:15.949 --> 01:04:18.389
you've been doing the job and where you started

01:04:18.389 --> 01:04:21.150
to accumulate or snowball those issues you're

01:04:21.150 --> 01:04:23.929
not spared by going to a slow station if you've

01:04:23.929 --> 01:04:27.809
done it for a long time yeah absolutely so what

01:04:27.809 --> 01:04:31.050
about But just the conversation of solutions,

01:04:31.349 --> 01:04:33.650
you know, you've got, and you alluded to, we

01:04:33.650 --> 01:04:36.710
haven't discussed the impact of your department

01:04:36.710 --> 01:04:38.690
specifically, but assuming you mirror pretty

01:04:38.690 --> 01:04:41.050
much everyone else in the US, and now you've

01:04:41.050 --> 01:04:43.929
got, you know, less recruitment, more openings,

01:04:44.090 --> 01:04:49.329
overtimes, etc. You know, what was the data showing?

01:04:49.429 --> 01:04:51.590
And then what have been some of the proposed

01:04:51.590 --> 01:04:55.150
solutions to turn this thing around? Well, one

01:04:55.150 --> 01:04:58.179
thing that was... Super interesting was when

01:04:58.179 --> 01:05:01.539
we looked at across time or across a six day

01:05:01.539 --> 01:05:04.380
cycle. So the two days before or the days before

01:05:04.380 --> 01:05:06.199
you go to work and then the days you're at work.

01:05:06.679 --> 01:05:09.800
Our system, we do a shift change at 7 a .m. Our

01:05:09.800 --> 01:05:12.840
system is artificially taking sleep from people.

01:05:12.940 --> 01:05:15.420
The two worst days of sleep are the day we wake

01:05:15.420 --> 01:05:17.820
you up early to come to work and the day we wake

01:05:17.820 --> 01:05:19.800
you up early to wash the fire truck to go home.

01:05:20.920 --> 01:05:25.619
We are taking about an hour a day. an hour of

01:05:25.619 --> 01:05:28.539
sleep away from everybody on those two days.

01:05:28.659 --> 01:05:32.579
And specifically, we know that late morning sleep

01:05:32.579 --> 01:05:37.440
is some of the most important sleep from memory

01:05:37.440 --> 01:05:40.179
consolidation, from cognitive decision -making.

01:05:40.219 --> 01:05:43.519
Those REM cycles that you get in the late morning

01:05:43.519 --> 01:05:46.039
are the most important ones for a lot of the

01:05:46.039 --> 01:05:48.139
things that we need to be really good at. doing

01:05:48.139 --> 01:05:49.719
your job. I mean, I don't know how many times

01:05:49.719 --> 01:05:52.739
we got that call at like 4 .45 on the second

01:05:52.739 --> 01:05:54.519
morning and you roll out to get on the ambulance

01:05:54.519 --> 01:05:56.280
and you have no idea what the hell you're supposed

01:05:56.280 --> 01:06:00.300
to be doing. And you're like, I am fried. You

01:06:00.300 --> 01:06:02.400
know, that's the window when you need the most

01:06:02.400 --> 01:06:04.760
sleep. So we found that, you know, potentially

01:06:04.760 --> 01:06:07.840
moving back the shift start time to align more

01:06:07.840 --> 01:06:11.460
with people's biological wake up time. You know,

01:06:11.500 --> 01:06:13.900
I can't throw it. a graph up here but i have

01:06:13.900 --> 01:06:16.880
a really cool chart that i uh from when we processed

01:06:16.880 --> 01:06:21.360
everybody's data people in our group wanted their

01:06:21.360 --> 01:06:23.659
bodies wanted them to be asleep right around

01:06:23.659 --> 01:06:27.059
10 between 10 and 10 45 every night it didn't

01:06:27.059 --> 01:06:28.920
matter whether at work or whether you're at home

01:06:28.920 --> 01:06:31.900
most people went to sleep between 10 30 and 10

01:06:31.900 --> 01:06:35.599
45 every night people woke up naturally on their

01:06:35.599 --> 01:06:39.420
days off around 6 45. was people's biological

01:06:39.420 --> 01:06:42.340
wake -up time. When those two days that I talked

01:06:42.340 --> 01:06:44.659
about, we're waking people up at 5 .30 in the

01:06:44.659 --> 01:06:47.059
morning to come to work, and we're waking people

01:06:47.059 --> 01:06:50.340
up at about 5 .45 is when people wake up the

01:06:50.340 --> 01:06:52.840
morning before they go home. So if we were able

01:06:52.840 --> 01:06:56.340
to move our start time to one that aligned more

01:06:56.340 --> 01:06:58.500
biologically with what our population needed,

01:06:58.760 --> 01:07:02.519
I see us giving a fair bit of sleep back to people

01:07:02.519 --> 01:07:07.119
in that regard as well. Yeah. That's what I got

01:07:07.119 --> 01:07:09.980
for that one. Yeah, I mean, this is obviously

01:07:09.980 --> 01:07:13.000
one part, the number of hours we'll definitely

01:07:13.000 --> 01:07:15.900
get to. But with the shift change conversation,

01:07:16.440 --> 01:07:19.380
I don't know why, but every department I know

01:07:19.380 --> 01:07:23.880
of that has changed the start time has literally

01:07:23.880 --> 01:07:26.860
taken the AM off the number and put the PM on.

01:07:27.599 --> 01:07:31.920
And there's another 23 hours in the day that

01:07:31.920 --> 01:07:35.670
you can choose from. So where... When I reflect

01:07:35.670 --> 01:07:37.530
to all the places I worked, and I would assume

01:07:37.530 --> 01:07:40.230
that your area is yet another one where not everyone

01:07:40.230 --> 01:07:42.469
can afford to live 10 minutes from a station.

01:07:43.110 --> 01:07:45.630
So when I think of my commute, if I was still

01:07:45.630 --> 01:07:49.570
in now, the 11 a .m., 12 noon time, to me, I

01:07:49.570 --> 01:07:53.250
think is the perfect one. Because on the 2448,

01:07:53.550 --> 01:07:57.030
I only spent one out of three mornings with my

01:07:57.030 --> 01:08:02.460
family, pretty much my whole career. If you extrapolate

01:08:02.460 --> 01:08:06.239
out. So by simply moving that to 11 or 12, exactly

01:08:06.239 --> 01:08:09.340
like you said, off going shift, got their asses

01:08:09.340 --> 01:08:12.179
handed to them. And now, you know, they sleep

01:08:12.179 --> 01:08:14.960
in till whenever 10 and then they start, you

01:08:14.960 --> 01:08:16.680
know, washing the rig, making coffee, all that

01:08:16.680 --> 01:08:19.279
stuff. Now they've caught up on two, three hours

01:08:19.279 --> 01:08:22.180
that they wouldn't have had. Conversely, the

01:08:22.180 --> 01:08:25.279
person who's ongoing gets up, has breakfast with

01:08:25.279 --> 01:08:27.439
their family, takes the kids to school, kisses

01:08:27.439 --> 01:08:30.239
their wife or husband goodbye. Then they head

01:08:30.239 --> 01:08:32.630
to work. And it's the same exact thing. You get

01:08:32.630 --> 01:08:34.270
in, you check out, but instead of breakfast,

01:08:34.369 --> 01:08:38.229
now it's lunch. So to me, that is such a fantastic

01:08:38.229 --> 01:08:42.210
solution for $0. So that's the first part. But

01:08:42.210 --> 01:08:45.130
obviously the other part is why, as I've said

01:08:45.130 --> 01:08:49.350
many, many times, is the person who wakes up

01:08:49.350 --> 01:08:51.569
from a dead sleep at 3 in the morning, slides

01:08:51.569 --> 01:08:53.890
down a two -story pole, gets in the back of a

01:08:53.890 --> 01:08:56.909
tiller, navigates to a structure fire, throws

01:08:56.909 --> 01:08:58.970
a ladder, makes entry through a second -story

01:08:58.970 --> 01:09:02.079
window, pulls out a child, doffs their gear and

01:09:02.079 --> 01:09:04.500
starts working a pediatric cardiac algorithm

01:09:04.500 --> 01:09:08.680
is okay working 56 hours a week, but the guy

01:09:08.680 --> 01:09:11.060
at Starbucks who makes a delicious latte taps

01:09:11.060 --> 01:09:15.100
out at 40. So this is, you know, the number one

01:09:15.100 --> 01:09:17.079
conversation, even though the start time I think

01:09:17.079 --> 01:09:21.479
can go hand in hand, is why the hell for so many

01:09:21.479 --> 01:09:23.539
years have we been working our firefighters these

01:09:23.539 --> 01:09:25.979
kind of hours? Because people say, oh, we used

01:09:25.979 --> 01:09:29.430
to do fire. Yeah, but that was decades ago. When

01:09:29.430 --> 01:09:31.710
I was young, we were getting murdered. And that

01:09:31.710 --> 01:09:34.670
was 2004 when I started. Murdered every single

01:09:34.670 --> 01:09:37.250
shift. So this has been going on for a long time.

01:09:37.529 --> 01:09:40.310
So what is the conversation about getting away

01:09:40.310 --> 01:09:44.229
from the worst shift, i .e. the 48 -96, and then

01:09:44.229 --> 01:09:51.689
getting down to a 42 -hour work week? I guess

01:09:51.689 --> 01:09:56.029
that's why you've got a show. One thing that

01:09:56.029 --> 01:09:58.149
I at least wanted to say before we go down. this

01:09:58.149 --> 01:10:00.970
part was with the later start time, one thing

01:10:00.970 --> 01:10:02.750
that I think, you know, as the person who has

01:10:02.750 --> 01:10:05.689
to do callbacks now, we were previously calling

01:10:05.689 --> 01:10:08.970
people back at between 5 .30 and 6 in the morning.

01:10:09.069 --> 01:10:11.329
It will ruin your day if you set your alarm to

01:10:11.329 --> 01:10:13.149
see if you got overtime and then not get it.

01:10:13.510 --> 01:10:16.369
If we were able to start later, so like you said,

01:10:16.390 --> 01:10:18.369
you could get kids out the door, you could get

01:10:18.369 --> 01:10:21.409
people off to work, then you could decide if

01:10:21.409 --> 01:10:23.770
you can work that overtime or that extra day

01:10:23.770 --> 01:10:26.760
or work that trade. It is so much easier from

01:10:26.760 --> 01:10:28.699
a staffing perspective if people can get their

01:10:28.699 --> 01:10:31.920
families handled before they have to make that

01:10:31.920 --> 01:10:34.500
decision of whether or not they've got the bandwidth

01:10:34.500 --> 01:10:37.159
to work an extra bit for the day. So that just

01:10:37.159 --> 01:10:38.920
is another feather in the cap of what you were

01:10:38.920 --> 01:10:43.880
talking about. As far as the total work hour

01:10:43.880 --> 01:10:47.079
thing, totally. I think the research is going

01:10:47.079 --> 01:10:49.079
there. I think we are working in that direction.

01:10:49.500 --> 01:10:53.079
We have to, in my mind, we have to make the roadmap

01:10:53.079 --> 01:10:58.439
to get there. There are so many different things

01:10:58.439 --> 01:11:01.100
into me. Like if I could just flip a switch and

01:11:01.100 --> 01:11:03.420
we do it, luckily no one asks me. I can say all

01:11:03.420 --> 01:11:07.020
the stuff I want, but it doesn't matter. I think

01:11:07.020 --> 01:11:09.960
that there are things, there are both speed bumps

01:11:09.960 --> 01:11:12.720
and opportunities along the way that have to

01:11:12.720 --> 01:11:15.079
line up timing wise. And I think specifically,

01:11:15.340 --> 01:11:19.800
can I just go down? I wrote some notes down because

01:11:19.800 --> 01:11:21.739
I think this is where we go. This is where we

01:11:21.739 --> 01:11:26.060
go. I think from an... And I think about each

01:11:26.060 --> 01:11:28.220
one of these from a domain perspective of how

01:11:28.220 --> 01:11:30.859
we're going to get there. It's not an if, it's

01:11:30.859 --> 01:11:34.319
when. We just need these things to line up. From

01:11:34.319 --> 01:11:38.939
an administrative perspective, we need the contract

01:11:38.939 --> 01:11:42.760
set correctly. We need to have a fire chief in

01:11:42.760 --> 01:11:46.020
place that sees the value of these things, can

01:11:46.020 --> 01:11:48.220
advocate for the value of these things to either

01:11:48.220 --> 01:11:51.279
a city, to a town, or to a board of directors.

01:11:51.949 --> 01:11:55.369
That needs to happen at the same time that we

01:11:55.369 --> 01:11:58.930
have kind of the available bandwidth to handle

01:11:58.930 --> 01:12:02.170
a transition like this. It's not hard. It's just

01:12:02.170 --> 01:12:05.409
a reprioritization of what the fire department

01:12:05.409 --> 01:12:08.090
is going to focus on. And that's absolutely,

01:12:08.329 --> 01:12:10.229
in my opinion, that should be the top of the

01:12:10.229 --> 01:12:14.090
pile, is figuring out how to make this job sustainable.

01:12:14.250 --> 01:12:18.250
Not now, like now, yes, but also five years from

01:12:18.250 --> 01:12:20.350
now when the new people who haven't been messed

01:12:20.350 --> 01:12:23.319
up. are now doing this job and even 10 years

01:12:23.319 --> 01:12:25.720
from now when the people who haven't even considered

01:12:25.720 --> 01:12:28.939
doing this job are wanting to get into this profession

01:12:28.939 --> 01:12:32.220
my goal is 10 years from now people look back

01:12:32.220 --> 01:12:34.100
and say oh my god i can't believe those idiots

01:12:34.100 --> 01:12:36.680
did that you know what i mean like i think that's

01:12:36.680 --> 01:12:39.819
again so from an administrative perspective we

01:12:39.819 --> 01:12:42.840
need the correct time to make it happen that

01:12:42.840 --> 01:12:45.560
is not that's That's an opportunity. That's not

01:12:45.560 --> 01:12:47.899
a speed bump. It's just how do we line it up

01:12:47.899 --> 01:12:50.939
from a legislative perspective? I think we also

01:12:50.939 --> 01:12:54.500
need to see we need to see the broader public

01:12:54.500 --> 01:12:57.819
invest in public safety. And specific to that,

01:12:57.920 --> 01:13:01.680
the Denver metro area has been bonkers with the

01:13:01.680 --> 01:13:03.939
cost of living, with the increase in housing

01:13:03.939 --> 01:13:06.939
prices, so much so that fire departments have

01:13:06.939 --> 01:13:09.989
been flush around here. We haven't had. a problem

01:13:09.989 --> 01:13:12.310
with making sure that our firefighters stay on

01:13:12.310 --> 01:13:14.850
pace with the increase in cost of living. Till

01:13:14.850 --> 01:13:18.409
now, we had our governor called a special session,

01:13:18.569 --> 01:13:20.909
which then readjusted all the property taxes.

01:13:21.189 --> 01:13:24.710
We had no control. We had no say in it. And now

01:13:24.710 --> 01:13:26.590
all of a sudden, we're facing down the barrel

01:13:26.590 --> 01:13:30.350
of a pretty significant funding challenge. You

01:13:30.350 --> 01:13:33.430
know, so much so that our state had funded a

01:13:33.430 --> 01:13:35.989
firefighter wellness trust where you could get,

01:13:36.050 --> 01:13:38.270
I think it was like five grand of services a

01:13:38.270 --> 01:13:42.409
year. paid for by the state now after three years

01:13:42.409 --> 01:13:44.470
they're pulling funding for it so now we have

01:13:44.470 --> 01:13:46.850
all these systems set up and now it's gone you

01:13:46.850 --> 01:13:49.449
know we have a behavioral therapist that emily

01:13:49.449 --> 01:13:52.649
who we hired who's amazing and she is just squeezing

01:13:52.649 --> 01:13:55.090
these onions like crazy to make sure we have

01:13:55.090 --> 01:13:57.470
these strategies so you know and then we look

01:13:57.470 --> 01:14:00.409
at like medicare and medicaid uh reimbursement

01:14:00.409 --> 01:14:04.289
all of these als transport fire departments are

01:14:04.289 --> 01:14:07.930
looking, you know, at a 7 % reduction in reimbursement

01:14:07.930 --> 01:14:10.310
for some of this stuff. Again, none of this is

01:14:10.310 --> 01:14:12.810
unattainable. It's just a question of how do

01:14:12.810 --> 01:14:16.909
we roadmap a transition to doing this? I think

01:14:16.909 --> 01:14:20.369
that the biggest power that we have collectively

01:14:20.369 --> 01:14:23.189
is the collective bargaining process. And I think,

01:14:23.210 --> 01:14:25.729
you know, our internal conversations of like,

01:14:25.770 --> 01:14:28.930
how can we do this? Like, we have to put the

01:14:28.930 --> 01:14:31.449
power in the people. We need to believe in the

01:14:31.449 --> 01:14:33.779
people. We need to believe in the contract process,

01:14:34.060 --> 01:14:37.159
at least in our contract process, you get to

01:14:37.159 --> 01:14:40.279
pick three things to bring to negotiations. And

01:14:40.279 --> 01:14:43.539
like you were saying before, for years, it's

01:14:43.539 --> 01:14:47.060
been healthcare, salaries, and vacation. And

01:14:47.060 --> 01:14:49.600
that's all people have room for. So we need to

01:14:49.600 --> 01:14:53.500
then transition into a cultural education campaign

01:14:53.500 --> 01:14:58.050
of like moving people from I need money, healthcare,

01:14:58.149 --> 01:15:00.250
and time off, which arguably are the most important

01:15:00.250 --> 01:15:02.770
things that we go to jobs for. And how do we

01:15:02.770 --> 01:15:07.449
say we want to create a system that's kinder

01:15:07.449 --> 01:15:10.090
to families, you get to be home more, and we're

01:15:10.090 --> 01:15:13.369
going to prioritize this versus that. I'm all

01:15:13.369 --> 01:15:16.130
for it. We just have the biggest lift in my world

01:15:16.130 --> 01:15:19.430
is, or in my perspective, is the cultural change.

01:15:19.569 --> 01:15:22.609
Especially, man, we've increased our vacation

01:15:22.609 --> 01:15:26.770
the last couple contracts. and we've also lockstep

01:15:26.770 --> 01:15:28.670
increased how much you can get paid back for

01:15:28.670 --> 01:15:31.010
so on one side i can't have people being like

01:15:31.010 --> 01:15:33.890
oh i'm so tired i'm tired too but i'm the first

01:15:33.890 --> 01:15:35.670
idiot that's going to try and sell back as much

01:15:35.670 --> 01:15:37.909
vacation as i can because we got stuff to pay

01:15:37.909 --> 01:15:41.140
for here so i think like there are There are

01:15:41.140 --> 01:15:43.380
things that we have to overcome as a culture

01:15:43.380 --> 01:15:45.819
that will allow us to get to where we need to

01:15:45.819 --> 01:15:48.260
be. And I also think like, man, the Denver Metro

01:15:48.260 --> 01:15:50.000
market, and I know this isn't the experience

01:15:50.000 --> 01:15:53.079
everywhere, but you can't go to a Starbucks around

01:15:53.079 --> 01:15:55.220
here with some ding dong who's making a quarter

01:15:55.220 --> 01:15:57.640
million dollars a year in a Patagonia vest who

01:15:57.640 --> 01:16:00.939
works at tech or finance or this, that, or the

01:16:00.939 --> 01:16:05.800
other thing that are squeezing blue collar firefighters

01:16:05.800 --> 01:16:10.060
out of. housing market. Like we've got our newer

01:16:10.060 --> 01:16:13.619
guys, you know, we have somebody who moved back

01:16:13.619 --> 01:16:15.420
in with their parents. They're making six figures

01:16:15.420 --> 01:16:17.199
a year and they move back in with their parents

01:16:17.199 --> 01:16:18.300
because they're like, I'm never going to buy

01:16:18.300 --> 01:16:20.560
a house. Or we've got, you know, a group of people

01:16:20.560 --> 01:16:22.220
who came out of the academy and they bought a

01:16:22.220 --> 01:16:24.619
house that's an hour away from where we work.

01:16:24.699 --> 01:16:26.520
And they all live there together because they

01:16:26.520 --> 01:16:29.600
can't afford a house in our own district. So

01:16:29.600 --> 01:16:31.819
like, that's the balance of like, I looked it

01:16:31.819 --> 01:16:34.779
up earlier. It's like. A family of four in the

01:16:34.779 --> 01:16:38.380
Denver metro area needs to make $276 ,000 a year

01:16:38.380 --> 01:16:42.439
to live comfortably. And we just like as a profession

01:16:42.439 --> 01:16:45.680
and with the tech sector and the finance sector

01:16:45.680 --> 01:16:49.380
in the Denver metro area, it's so hard. To keep

01:16:49.380 --> 01:16:51.239
up with that. And then you add in the cultural

01:16:51.239 --> 01:16:54.300
part, the financial literacy part of new people

01:16:54.300 --> 01:16:56.600
who get this job. Like when I, I think when I

01:16:56.600 --> 01:16:58.260
left the private ambulance, I was making like

01:16:58.260 --> 01:17:02.000
$6 and 70 cents an hour. And I got this job and

01:17:02.000 --> 01:17:04.220
I'm like, oh my God, I'm rich. I don't have to

01:17:04.220 --> 01:17:06.720
drink Keystone Light anymore. You know what I

01:17:06.720 --> 01:17:09.840
mean? So I think like, we also have to be the

01:17:09.840 --> 01:17:13.579
idea of like, we need to stay up with the job

01:17:13.579 --> 01:17:15.640
market. We need to remain competitive. We need

01:17:15.640 --> 01:17:19.229
to find system fixes to get to that. end goal.

01:17:19.390 --> 01:17:21.710
Again, none of it's impossible. It's a question

01:17:21.710 --> 01:17:25.909
of educating and having people prioritize these

01:17:25.909 --> 01:17:28.409
strategies over the other things that we're asking

01:17:28.409 --> 01:17:30.869
people to do every day. And the other things

01:17:30.869 --> 01:17:33.430
that they run into every day, like healthcare

01:17:33.430 --> 01:17:38.300
is double digit increases across the board. you

01:17:38.300 --> 01:17:41.439
worry about high deductible plans and these HSA

01:17:41.439 --> 01:17:43.260
plans and things like that, that are the ways

01:17:43.260 --> 01:17:45.939
that school districts, fire departments, police

01:17:45.939 --> 01:17:49.720
departments help shed some of the budgetary constraints

01:17:49.720 --> 01:17:53.760
is by cost -shifting healthcare more on the employee.

01:17:54.020 --> 01:17:57.800
Well, turns out when you're tired and you're

01:17:57.800 --> 01:17:59.760
sick and you have metabolic disorder because

01:17:59.760 --> 01:18:01.840
of the shifts that you work, you're going to

01:18:01.840 --> 01:18:04.569
use healthcare a lot more. So, I don't know.

01:18:04.609 --> 01:18:08.069
And I also think from a regional balance, as

01:18:08.069 --> 01:18:11.310
we make this transition, it needs to be a region.

01:18:11.409 --> 01:18:13.670
It needs to be a metroplex. When I look at what

01:18:13.670 --> 01:18:15.670
you guys are doing down in Florida with the legislative

01:18:15.670 --> 01:18:21.050
prioritization of the 42 -hour week, it would

01:18:21.050 --> 01:18:23.149
be awesome to have every state come in and drop

01:18:23.149 --> 01:18:24.989
the hammer and say, this is our goal. This is

01:18:24.989 --> 01:18:26.689
what we want to do. You figure out how to make

01:18:26.689 --> 01:18:29.550
it happen. In the regional job market in the

01:18:29.550 --> 01:18:33.960
Denver metro area, we have... We need somebody.

01:18:34.060 --> 01:18:36.560
We can't have somebody just make the first move.

01:18:36.619 --> 01:18:38.439
We need to do it all together because we have

01:18:38.439 --> 01:18:42.039
regional academies. We have regional special

01:18:42.039 --> 01:18:45.119
team responses. Again, these are all opportunities.

01:18:45.520 --> 01:18:48.500
These aren't roadblocks. These are things that

01:18:48.500 --> 01:18:51.340
we need to get people in the same rooms together.

01:18:51.560 --> 01:18:54.199
We need labor leaders. We need executive teams.

01:18:54.359 --> 01:18:56.539
We need everybody to come together and say, look,

01:18:56.640 --> 01:18:59.640
we know what we're doing to people. We know that

01:18:59.640 --> 01:19:02.520
this is not ideal. How can we all work together

01:19:02.520 --> 01:19:05.500
to get our entire metro area across the finish

01:19:05.500 --> 01:19:08.420
line? And that, you know, that involves egos.

01:19:08.420 --> 01:19:11.699
It involves different motives. It involves political

01:19:11.699 --> 01:19:14.420
things. Like, you know, you take a proposition

01:19:14.420 --> 01:19:17.840
like this to the firehouse, half the people are

01:19:17.840 --> 01:19:19.300
like, yes, this is the best thing ever. I'll

01:19:19.300 --> 01:19:21.659
do this job for the rest of my life. It's a wedge

01:19:21.659 --> 01:19:24.670
issue because people aren't educated. And that

01:19:24.670 --> 01:19:26.789
I think is, you know, this is what you're doing

01:19:26.789 --> 01:19:29.050
through your podcast. It's what I'm trying to

01:19:29.050 --> 01:19:31.409
do with my research and what we're doing at the

01:19:31.409 --> 01:19:34.010
broader level between, you know, what Sarah's

01:19:34.010 --> 01:19:36.289
doing and what Joel's doing and what the guys

01:19:36.289 --> 01:19:38.430
down at Palm Beach County are doing. Like all

01:19:38.430 --> 01:19:41.329
of these things are trying to push the conversation,

01:19:41.529 --> 01:19:44.869
to push the narrative to a culture change and

01:19:44.869 --> 01:19:47.270
not something that we're just going to say, oh,

01:19:47.289 --> 01:19:48.710
that would be cool, but then never do anything

01:19:48.710 --> 01:19:51.770
about. So that's where I see like, that's where

01:19:51.770 --> 01:19:55.329
I see the roadmap going to. This kind of this

01:19:55.329 --> 01:19:58.550
end goal. I have no idea what I was just talking

01:19:58.550 --> 01:20:00.489
about. Did any of that make sense? No, it did.

01:20:00.569 --> 01:20:03.949
Just record that whole section. No, it's funny,

01:20:04.029 --> 01:20:05.409
though, because, you know, people look at the

01:20:05.409 --> 01:20:07.810
legislature that just went through and that was

01:20:07.810 --> 01:20:10.189
amazing. Danny Alvarez is on here. Obviously,

01:20:10.289 --> 01:20:14.149
Governor DeSantis just signed it. But that didn't

01:20:14.149 --> 01:20:17.789
come first. By that point, 11 fire departments

01:20:17.789 --> 01:20:19.750
had already said we're going to make this happen.

01:20:19.869 --> 01:20:21.850
And I think this is an important thing that people

01:20:21.850 --> 01:20:24.500
have got to understand. Like I was lateral to,

01:20:24.560 --> 01:20:26.060
I mean, it wasn't technically lateral, but they

01:20:26.060 --> 01:20:29.340
took my Florida cert when I was an Anaheim firefighter.

01:20:29.539 --> 01:20:32.479
And then after the 08 crash, I'd actually moved

01:20:32.479 --> 01:20:36.779
back to Florida. They changed it and you weren't

01:20:36.779 --> 01:20:39.260
allowed to have an out of state cert anymore.

01:20:39.500 --> 01:20:43.039
And so these departments can literally do whatever

01:20:43.039 --> 01:20:46.300
they want to do. So anyone who's waiting for

01:20:46.300 --> 01:20:49.489
a big organization to fix their things. you're

01:20:49.489 --> 01:20:51.130
going to be waiting a long time and i've said

01:20:51.130 --> 01:20:54.369
this before and i'll stand by it perfect example

01:20:54.369 --> 01:20:57.750
we have the iff leadership that live you know

01:20:57.750 --> 01:21:01.409
that are out of boston and they enjoy a 24 72

01:21:01.409 --> 01:21:05.229
schedule and yet i have not seen one thing coming

01:21:05.229 --> 01:21:08.500
out saying this needs to be a national And it

01:21:08.500 --> 01:21:10.840
might be in the rumblings now, but I'm talking

01:21:10.840 --> 01:21:12.720
about for the last nine years. And again, it

01:21:12.720 --> 01:21:15.220
was Fairfax before that. When it was Fairfax,

01:21:15.260 --> 01:21:18.000
Fairfax still works 56 hours a week. I'm pretty

01:21:18.000 --> 01:21:19.739
sure the work week is supposed to be one of the

01:21:19.739 --> 01:21:23.159
top things when you are in a union. So waiting,

01:21:23.720 --> 01:21:25.939
for example, for the organization that I paid

01:21:25.939 --> 01:21:30.279
dues for for 14 years and certainly didn't experience

01:21:30.279 --> 01:21:33.739
any incredible pay increases. So I was waiting

01:21:33.739 --> 01:21:37.159
at least, okay, what are the benefits? This is

01:21:37.159 --> 01:21:39.899
what I see. So it really is down to the organization

01:21:39.899 --> 01:21:42.439
to say enough is enough. That's what happened

01:21:42.439 --> 01:21:44.699
in Pasco County. That's what happened in Gainesville.

01:21:44.800 --> 01:21:47.000
That's what happened in Boynton Beach. And they

01:21:47.000 --> 01:21:49.460
end up becoming the thought leaders that then

01:21:49.460 --> 01:21:52.619
gave more courage to the first followers, as

01:21:52.619 --> 01:21:56.039
they say. Totally. Where the real selling point

01:21:56.039 --> 01:21:58.680
is, and again, educate me if you guys are just

01:21:58.680 --> 01:22:02.850
nowhere near this, but I wish it was. Our people

01:22:02.850 --> 01:22:04.649
are being worked into the ground. We're losing

01:22:04.649 --> 01:22:06.529
people to cancer. We're losing people to suicide.

01:22:06.810 --> 01:22:09.069
Divorces are through the roof. We've got estranged

01:22:09.069 --> 01:22:10.909
children, et cetera, et cetera. But that's not

01:22:10.909 --> 01:22:13.050
the case. Because if it was, we wouldn't even

01:22:13.050 --> 01:22:14.750
have this conversation. I wouldn't have a podcast

01:22:14.750 --> 01:22:16.630
because all firefighters would be healthy. We

01:22:16.630 --> 01:22:20.210
did it. We fixed it. So where you have to go

01:22:20.210 --> 01:22:23.710
is the money, sadly. And what these departments

01:22:23.710 --> 01:22:27.729
in Florida were able to show is like, we 10,

01:22:27.890 --> 01:22:31.119
15, 20 years ago had all these recruits. Now

01:22:31.119 --> 01:22:34.079
we only have this amount of people testing. That

01:22:34.079 --> 01:22:36.939
has created all these holes in our staffing that

01:22:36.939 --> 01:22:40.939
is now being filled by forcing our 56 hour a

01:22:40.939 --> 01:22:46.239
week employees to work an 80 hour week. So, you

01:22:46.239 --> 01:22:49.079
know, lo and behold, it's not working. And then

01:22:49.079 --> 01:22:51.140
it's costing you time and a half to fill what

01:22:51.140 --> 01:22:53.859
should be a straight time position. Now you've

01:22:53.859 --> 01:22:56.220
also got people that were spending millions to

01:22:56.220 --> 01:22:59.180
train collectively. Who are then walking out

01:22:59.180 --> 01:23:01.420
the back door in two, three, four years to go

01:23:01.420 --> 01:23:03.199
work for someone else after we trained them.

01:23:03.380 --> 01:23:05.939
Another massive loss. And you've got women's

01:23:05.939 --> 01:23:07.560
comp claims through the roof. Because as you

01:23:07.560 --> 01:23:10.680
alluded to, overworked workforce gets sick and

01:23:10.680 --> 01:23:13.880
gets hurt far higher. That creates medical disabilities,

01:23:14.239 --> 01:23:17.060
line of duty death payments, lawsuits from mistakes

01:23:17.060 --> 01:23:19.880
that tired firefighters make. By this point,

01:23:19.899 --> 01:23:22.760
in a city of your size, we're talking about tens,

01:23:22.760 --> 01:23:24.680
if not hundreds of millions of dollars that are

01:23:24.680 --> 01:23:27.949
downstream. Taxpayers' money. that has already

01:23:27.949 --> 01:23:31.029
been wasted and has created a deficit in the

01:23:31.029 --> 01:23:34.569
ability to serve your community so i think it's

01:23:34.569 --> 01:23:36.789
that storytelling and everyone's different and

01:23:36.789 --> 01:23:39.329
everyone's got their own numbers but if you can

01:23:39.329 --> 01:23:43.630
show that by fully staffing a four platoon system

01:23:43.630 --> 01:23:47.130
a the overtime will go away it will pasco i just

01:23:47.130 --> 01:23:50.090
had dixon phillips on they have no overtime at

01:23:50.090 --> 01:23:52.409
the moment And I know the overtime whores are

01:23:52.409 --> 01:23:54.430
screaming out and wringing their hands. How could

01:23:54.430 --> 01:23:56.909
you do this to us? There are other ways of making

01:23:56.909 --> 01:24:00.069
money. And it's healthier to do it in a daytime

01:24:00.069 --> 01:24:02.609
job where you're an entrepreneur and you're a

01:24:02.609 --> 01:24:04.750
landscaper, personal trainer, mechanic, whatever

01:24:04.750 --> 01:24:06.970
it is that you do on the side. That is something

01:24:06.970 --> 01:24:11.369
to be encouraged. But doing more shifts, more

01:24:11.369 --> 01:24:14.529
nights without sleep, more exposure to trauma

01:24:14.529 --> 01:24:17.850
and organizational stress, that is the worst

01:24:17.850 --> 01:24:20.880
model. When you hear these Florida departments

01:24:20.880 --> 01:24:23.899
and the successes that they're having, it does

01:24:23.899 --> 01:24:26.079
make sense. So unless you are a department that

01:24:26.079 --> 01:24:30.220
has no overtime, is fully staffed, as you alluded

01:24:30.220 --> 01:24:34.199
to, runs maybe one call a shift, which again,

01:24:34.359 --> 01:24:37.199
that's what Joel's study was demonstrating. The

01:24:37.199 --> 01:24:39.760
department he studied ran one a shift, less than

01:24:39.760 --> 01:24:44.000
one at night. So you can say, oh, the 4896 is

01:24:44.000 --> 01:24:46.180
slightly healthier, but that's not the real fire

01:24:46.180 --> 01:24:48.579
service. And also those firefighters are still

01:24:48.579 --> 01:24:50.979
kept from their families for 56 hours at a time.

01:24:51.020 --> 01:24:53.500
So it doesn't solve that problem. But for the

01:24:53.500 --> 01:24:58.079
other 99 .9 % of the American fire service, to

01:24:58.079 --> 01:25:02.260
use Desmond Tutu's quote, we spend so much time

01:25:02.260 --> 01:25:04.479
pulling bodies out of the river, we forget to

01:25:04.479 --> 01:25:06.539
go upstream to find out why they're falling in

01:25:06.539 --> 01:25:09.239
in the first place. We have done nothing but

01:25:09.239 --> 01:25:12.279
watch wasted money drift past us rather than

01:25:12.279 --> 01:25:14.899
going. stop. We're going to invest in another

01:25:14.899 --> 01:25:17.560
shift. We're going to fix this problem, which

01:25:17.560 --> 01:25:19.659
in turn is going to save the taxpayers a lot

01:25:19.659 --> 01:25:22.779
of money, which in turn will then be the very

01:25:22.779 --> 01:25:24.979
raises that we've been told we can't have. And

01:25:24.979 --> 01:25:26.739
maybe we'll put us up to where we can afford

01:25:26.739 --> 01:25:31.180
to live in this area. Yes. I guess that was easy.

01:25:31.319 --> 01:25:36.520
Yes. It's a principle. The doing isn't easy,

01:25:36.619 --> 01:25:38.979
but understanding that you can do it, that's

01:25:38.979 --> 01:25:41.859
the first step. Well, and one thing that we've

01:25:41.859 --> 01:25:45.180
done, I don't, it's not creatively, it's just

01:25:45.180 --> 01:25:48.100
good business is that we carry, we're authorized

01:25:48.100 --> 01:25:52.239
by our board to hire 130 % of what our shift

01:25:52.239 --> 01:25:56.659
costs are. So we have, I mean, man, I can, I

01:25:56.659 --> 01:26:00.119
have not yet this year had to mando anybody back

01:26:00.119 --> 01:26:04.579
as a shift staffer. Not that it hasn't happened.

01:26:05.579 --> 01:26:08.600
It's just, our system is set up that we carry.

01:26:09.310 --> 01:26:11.810
extra weight to account for those things. And

01:26:11.810 --> 01:26:14.789
part of it is because we're the USAR sponsor.

01:26:15.010 --> 01:26:17.069
Part of it is because we have people on our wildland

01:26:17.069 --> 01:26:20.529
teams that are out all summer. So we run heavy

01:26:20.529 --> 01:26:23.710
for exactly that reason. Again, that doesn't

01:26:23.710 --> 01:26:25.909
fix any of the operational stuff that you were

01:26:25.909 --> 01:26:28.470
just talking about. We just don't seem to shift

01:26:28.470 --> 01:26:32.250
that burden on anybody who isn't wanting to do

01:26:32.250 --> 01:26:35.489
it. the the extra work the the concern like you

01:26:35.489 --> 01:26:38.170
alluded to is like man this is not the healthiest

01:26:38.170 --> 01:26:40.350
extra work you can be doing with your time off

01:26:40.350 --> 01:26:43.449
and then how do we get back into that that education

01:26:43.449 --> 01:26:47.069
or changing the culture of you know i i hate

01:26:47.069 --> 01:26:49.090
to say it but a lot of times man we are our own

01:26:49.090 --> 01:26:51.289
worst enemies when it comes to this stuff like

01:26:51.289 --> 01:26:54.649
whether it's selling back every second of vacation

01:26:54.649 --> 01:26:58.430
we can or it's you know the guys who end up making

01:26:58.430 --> 01:27:00.630
us lose our discount at the barbecue place because

01:27:00.630 --> 01:27:01.989
they're wearing their class b's and they're on

01:27:01.989 --> 01:27:04.170
their days off and stuff like that if there's

01:27:04.170 --> 01:27:06.810
a way to take advantage of a system you know

01:27:06.810 --> 01:27:09.869
we are the guys who will find it so i i hear

01:27:09.869 --> 01:27:11.930
i completely agree with what you're saying i

01:27:11.930 --> 01:27:15.130
think there uh there are steps like i'm saying

01:27:15.130 --> 01:27:18.640
by like carrying extra overage within what your

01:27:18.640 --> 01:27:21.100
board or your city allows you to do increasing

01:27:21.100 --> 01:27:23.920
those to the point that then that shift to that

01:27:23.920 --> 01:27:26.020
fourth platoon like we're already staffed for

01:27:26.020 --> 01:27:28.420
it you know what i mean now it's a question of

01:27:28.420 --> 01:27:31.500
the contract part of having the union come through

01:27:31.500 --> 01:27:33.079
and say all right this is what we're going to

01:27:33.079 --> 01:27:37.100
make our priority 100 i'm i'm trying to think

01:27:37.100 --> 01:27:39.899
how do we make these steps that eventually get

01:27:39.899 --> 01:27:43.100
us to the point that the switch to doing something

01:27:43.100 --> 01:27:46.380
else is already taken care of and you're i mean

01:27:46.380 --> 01:27:49.279
you're saying the exact same thing um and you

01:27:49.279 --> 01:27:52.460
have tremendous examples of people who are doing

01:27:52.460 --> 01:27:54.880
it already and i think that's the coolest part

01:27:54.880 --> 01:27:57.439
is that you know you get a collective of these

01:27:57.439 --> 01:27:59.619
departments that can do it it shifts the job

01:27:59.619 --> 01:28:02.119
market it makes those departments more desirable

01:28:02.119 --> 01:28:05.060
than all of the reasons that you talked about

01:28:05.060 --> 01:28:09.560
now we're able to get the um overtime down so

01:28:09.560 --> 01:28:12.340
now we're able to increase base wages and now

01:28:12.340 --> 01:28:15.750
your payouts are better Your muster out payments

01:28:15.750 --> 01:28:17.670
are better. And I know when we talked about it

01:28:17.670 --> 01:28:21.069
before, we were also talking about how pension

01:28:21.069 --> 01:28:24.189
systems work and how the pension part of the

01:28:24.189 --> 01:28:27.609
experience, how we need to be bringing people

01:28:27.609 --> 01:28:31.220
into this job to be able to. carry the overhead

01:28:31.220 --> 01:28:34.260
of pension distributions and how important this

01:28:34.260 --> 01:28:37.579
is as we move into our five and 10 year plans.

01:28:37.760 --> 01:28:39.979
How are we creating the pipeline of people who

01:28:39.979 --> 01:28:42.619
are going to be doing this job to support the

01:28:42.619 --> 01:28:45.220
pensions of the people who are headed out? And

01:28:45.220 --> 01:28:48.000
I think that's another super valuable argument

01:28:48.000 --> 01:28:52.300
when we talk about exactly what you do every

01:28:52.300 --> 01:28:55.500
week when you do your show. Yeah, well, I think

01:28:55.500 --> 01:28:58.420
just to dovetail on the pension conversation

01:28:58.420 --> 01:29:01.600
as well, I mean, we've got a profession at the

01:29:01.600 --> 01:29:05.319
moment that does 25 years of 56 hours a week,

01:29:05.460 --> 01:29:08.760
80 hours of overtime. And then you have the drop

01:29:08.760 --> 01:29:11.199
program. So right when they get there, now they're

01:29:11.199 --> 01:29:12.939
like, I'm going to stay a few more years so I

01:29:12.939 --> 01:29:15.460
can double dip. And there's not an understanding

01:29:15.460 --> 01:29:19.279
that on average, we die five, six years after

01:29:19.279 --> 01:29:22.520
retirement. So you, you know, working yourself

01:29:22.520 --> 01:29:25.760
into the ground and working against all the proactive

01:29:25.760 --> 01:29:28.579
wellness initiatives for, you know, in lieu of

01:29:28.579 --> 01:29:31.659
more money, more overtime, and then you die.

01:29:32.479 --> 01:29:35.060
That's a really shit plan. I hate to tell you.

01:29:35.439 --> 01:29:37.319
Well, and with the pension, then your family

01:29:37.319 --> 01:29:38.920
doesn't get anything. No, exactly. Because you're

01:29:38.920 --> 01:29:42.239
gone. The city, the biggest present they could

01:29:42.239 --> 01:29:43.920
ever have. And it's the same with buying out,

01:29:43.960 --> 01:29:46.380
you know, vacation. I'm all for, you know, paid

01:29:46.380 --> 01:29:50.109
leave needing to be used. Because no one wins

01:29:50.109 --> 01:29:52.289
when you cash it out. Usually you don't get actually

01:29:52.289 --> 01:29:55.210
what it's worth. And what you really need is

01:29:55.210 --> 01:29:57.710
that day off. I don't care if you watch Tiger

01:29:57.710 --> 01:29:59.729
King for eight hours. It doesn't matter. Just

01:29:59.729 --> 01:30:02.789
stay at home and get some sleep. So I think this

01:30:02.789 --> 01:30:04.630
is a beautiful thing on the other side of this

01:30:04.630 --> 01:30:09.170
conversation is that dark side, that abuse, that

01:30:09.170 --> 01:30:12.449
focusing on just benefits and money and pay raises

01:30:12.449 --> 01:30:16.119
and all this kind of stuff. that isn't, to go

01:30:16.119 --> 01:30:18.020
back to the beginning of our conversation, the

01:30:18.020 --> 01:30:19.840
kindness, compassion, empathy that's supposed

01:30:19.840 --> 01:30:23.060
to be at the core of what we do is starting to

01:30:23.060 --> 01:30:25.699
dismantle some of that. So I'm not having great

01:30:25.699 --> 01:30:27.359
benefits and pensions and everything, but for

01:30:27.359 --> 01:30:30.880
example, if something's working against our wellness

01:30:30.880 --> 01:30:33.020
and longevity, that needs to be addressed. And

01:30:33.020 --> 01:30:35.359
I'll give you the perfect example. If we fight

01:30:35.359 --> 01:30:38.199
for a work week that allows us to really perform

01:30:38.199 --> 01:30:41.939
at a high level, the next conversation is a punitive

01:30:41.939 --> 01:30:44.600
fitness standard. Because if you want to make

01:30:44.600 --> 01:30:47.579
sure that your firefighters die earlier, oppose

01:30:47.579 --> 01:30:50.800
fitness standards. It's that simple. No one's

01:30:50.800 --> 01:30:53.939
asking you to be a world champion decathlon.

01:30:54.340 --> 01:30:56.399
But the things that you had to do in the academy,

01:30:56.579 --> 01:30:59.579
we want you to just be able to do them while

01:30:59.579 --> 01:31:01.539
you're wearing the uniform. It's a pretty small

01:31:01.539 --> 01:31:04.359
ask, in my opinion. But the moment we lower standards

01:31:04.359 --> 01:31:06.720
and we allow people to start gaining weight,

01:31:06.779 --> 01:31:09.170
we are literally saying... Yeah, go get heart

01:31:09.170 --> 01:31:10.850
disease. Go have a stroke. Yeah, that's awesome.

01:31:10.930 --> 01:31:13.390
We support what you're doing rather than saying

01:31:13.390 --> 01:31:16.250
not on our watch because as long as we forge

01:31:16.250 --> 01:31:18.829
performance, the beautiful side effect is you're

01:31:18.829 --> 01:31:21.810
going to have a much healthier lifespan. When

01:31:21.810 --> 01:31:23.989
I think I've got a perfect example of that is

01:31:23.989 --> 01:31:28.050
we have some of the most fantastic and dedicated.

01:31:29.710 --> 01:31:33.810
Guys who go out and teach at FDIC, they are amazing

01:31:33.810 --> 01:31:36.569
performers. They're the guys that if I were trapped

01:31:36.569 --> 01:31:38.789
in my house, I would want them to come get me.

01:31:39.170 --> 01:31:43.229
And they demand a lot of their people. And those

01:31:43.229 --> 01:31:45.630
are the guys, as an incident commander, those

01:31:45.630 --> 01:31:47.810
are the people that I want doing the high -risk

01:31:47.810 --> 01:31:49.569
operations. Those are the people where I'm going

01:31:49.569 --> 01:31:51.590
to say, yep, you're the ones who I want doing

01:31:51.590 --> 01:31:54.189
this. You're getting the assignment. To that

01:31:54.189 --> 01:31:58.979
point, we had... These guys had a save a couple

01:31:58.979 --> 01:32:01.920
years ago where they were masked up, ready to

01:32:01.920 --> 01:32:05.159
go. Airbrake hit. They were inside. They went

01:32:05.159 --> 01:32:08.840
through terrible conditions. And these guys are

01:32:08.840 --> 01:32:11.420
the best in the business for being in shape and

01:32:11.420 --> 01:32:13.979
being amazing at their job. They went in and

01:32:13.979 --> 01:32:16.000
they got a little girl out of the room. We got

01:32:16.000 --> 01:32:19.560
the Cyano kit started. The girl lived and she

01:32:19.560 --> 01:32:23.220
is the perfect example why having high standards

01:32:23.220 --> 01:32:26.119
of ourselves and the department having high standards

01:32:26.119 --> 01:32:29.319
of our people is critical to us doing the job.

01:32:29.420 --> 01:32:32.159
And this ties back into what I'm talking about

01:32:32.159 --> 01:32:34.960
is, you know, if we're able to cycle load management,

01:32:35.100 --> 01:32:37.140
if we're able to make it so people come to work

01:32:37.140 --> 01:32:40.119
and they are the best that they can be when they're

01:32:40.119 --> 01:32:42.399
given those opportunities. You know, when you

01:32:42.399 --> 01:32:45.579
look at the people are so motivated for performance

01:32:45.579 --> 01:32:47.739
and training and being excellent. at our jobs

01:32:47.739 --> 01:32:50.619
and investing in the craft and the tradesmanship

01:32:50.619 --> 01:32:55.840
of this job, you want those people to be dialed

01:32:55.840 --> 01:32:58.699
in, to be rested, to be ready to rock when it's

01:32:58.699 --> 01:33:00.840
time to hit the green light. So this goes, I

01:33:00.840 --> 01:33:03.699
mean, that goes exactly to your point. And you

01:33:03.699 --> 01:33:06.260
see this through every layer of the fire department.

01:33:06.380 --> 01:33:09.779
You want the people making every decision that

01:33:09.779 --> 01:33:12.760
you need that could be life or death, or it could

01:33:12.760 --> 01:33:15.060
be on a spreadsheet. You want those people ready

01:33:15.060 --> 01:33:18.539
to rock. And so I completely agree with what

01:33:18.539 --> 01:33:20.819
you're saying. And it makes me sad if there are

01:33:20.819 --> 01:33:23.199
places that aren't like that. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

01:33:23.260 --> 01:33:24.699
I mean, this is this two interesting things.

01:33:24.739 --> 01:33:26.819
Firstly, with the lowering of the recruitment

01:33:26.819 --> 01:33:30.619
bar or even pool, if you like. I had a police

01:33:30.619 --> 01:33:32.939
officer not too long ago who now works in background

01:33:32.939 --> 01:33:35.979
checks. He's got a company and he was at a conference

01:33:35.979 --> 01:33:38.460
and someone asked or he asked the question, I

01:33:38.460 --> 01:33:40.939
think, to the speaker. Is there a dollar amount

01:33:40.939 --> 01:33:43.960
attached to getting rid of the wrong employee?

01:33:44.569 --> 01:33:46.630
poor employee that got hired that shouldn't have.

01:33:46.810 --> 01:33:49.050
And he said, on average, it's about half a million

01:33:49.050 --> 01:33:53.649
dollars. So right there, as we are getting away

01:33:53.649 --> 01:33:56.989
from that thousand people for 13 spots, that

01:33:56.989 --> 01:33:59.090
increases. So there's a dollar amount there.

01:33:59.689 --> 01:34:05.550
That little narcissistic, leather helmet, mustachioed,

01:34:05.550 --> 01:34:07.470
chest beating firefighter that I was referring

01:34:07.470 --> 01:34:09.310
to earlier, the one that's always on social media

01:34:09.310 --> 01:34:14.609
talking about firefighter and anti -EMS. If you

01:34:14.609 --> 01:34:16.529
actually want to perform at the highest level,

01:34:16.590 --> 01:34:18.430
you need the rest and recovery. And I guarantee

01:34:18.430 --> 01:34:20.289
you, if you did get to see the metrics of that

01:34:20.289 --> 01:34:23.569
cycling team, sleep would be a huge part of their

01:34:23.569 --> 01:34:26.489
performance. Very much so. Every time I hear

01:34:26.489 --> 01:34:28.590
someone talking about, well, I remember my last

01:34:28.590 --> 01:34:31.829
part -time job or any kind of wanky sleep when

01:34:31.829 --> 01:34:34.909
I'm dead rhetoric, it makes me want to punch

01:34:34.909 --> 01:34:36.229
him in the face because what you're actually

01:34:36.229 --> 01:34:39.010
saying is. I actually don't want to be a very

01:34:39.010 --> 01:34:41.310
good firefighter, so don't give me the rest and

01:34:41.310 --> 01:34:43.369
recovery. Therefore, I have an excuse of being

01:34:43.369 --> 01:34:46.130
shit. Rather than saying, well, I take my fitness

01:34:46.130 --> 01:34:48.890
seriously, I go to the conferences, I do the

01:34:48.890 --> 01:34:52.130
extra training, and I also focus on my rest and

01:34:52.130 --> 01:34:55.369
recovery. And if you are opposing, in my rank

01:34:55.369 --> 01:34:58.189
now, if you're a firefighter in the station and

01:34:58.189 --> 01:35:01.289
you're opposing a healthier work week, Not only

01:35:01.289 --> 01:35:02.850
are you saying, I don't want to spend as much

01:35:02.850 --> 01:35:04.529
time with my family, which I really question

01:35:04.529 --> 01:35:06.729
your ethics and mental health at that point,

01:35:06.789 --> 01:35:10.510
but also you're saying, I choose to be a worse

01:35:10.510 --> 01:35:12.630
firefighter. Because as you said, if you make

01:35:12.630 --> 01:35:16.069
entry into that room and it's 2 a .m. and you

01:35:16.069 --> 01:35:18.390
have a busy, exhausted mind, you are not going

01:35:18.390 --> 01:35:20.310
to be able to find that child. It's just that

01:35:20.310 --> 01:35:24.250
simple. It's neuroscience. I agree. And I also

01:35:24.250 --> 01:35:27.100
think we should do more naps. I think every station

01:35:27.100 --> 01:35:29.760
should be required to turn on Step Brothers and

01:35:29.760 --> 01:35:33.579
everybody goes and racks out in the recliner

01:35:33.579 --> 01:35:36.899
for an hour and a half every day. I think that,

01:35:36.920 --> 01:35:40.220
I mean, totally to your point, like we want our

01:35:40.220 --> 01:35:42.500
people the best that they can be when it's time

01:35:42.500 --> 01:35:45.380
to do the grownup stuff. And it's awesome. And

01:35:45.380 --> 01:35:47.819
it's fun to see the people who do prioritize

01:35:47.819 --> 01:35:50.539
that be amazing at what we do and to try and

01:35:50.539 --> 01:35:54.119
support that passion. Yes, 100%. Another easy

01:35:54.119 --> 01:35:57.319
one. Yeah, 100%. So the three things that I think

01:35:57.319 --> 01:36:01.479
are real game changers is the 24 -72, the midday

01:36:01.479 --> 01:36:05.260
-ish start time. And then the third one, I had

01:36:05.260 --> 01:36:07.479
a couple of guests from GMR, which is a parent

01:36:07.479 --> 01:36:09.979
company of AMR. They have a thing called nurse

01:36:09.979 --> 01:36:12.960
navigation. So it integrates in your 911 system.

01:36:13.399 --> 01:36:16.079
You get a call. The classic example is, you know,

01:36:16.100 --> 01:36:19.460
new parents. 15 month old child threw up once

01:36:19.460 --> 01:36:21.579
and they think he's going to die of dehydration

01:36:21.579 --> 01:36:23.500
there. And then who hasn't been there though?

01:36:23.600 --> 01:36:25.399
Exactly. Those first couple of weeks are crazy.

01:36:26.079 --> 01:36:28.000
Exactly. It's a legitimate thing. You know what

01:36:28.000 --> 01:36:30.060
I mean? As a parent and as a responder, we've

01:36:30.060 --> 01:36:32.699
seen it, you know, umpteen times. So now the

01:36:32.699 --> 01:36:35.239
dispatcher goes through their algorithm, you

01:36:35.239 --> 01:36:37.000
know, determines it's not a, you know, Charlie

01:36:37.000 --> 01:36:39.899
Delta echo and then said, well, look, we've got

01:36:39.899 --> 01:36:42.960
two options. We can send you some paramedics

01:36:42.960 --> 01:36:46.680
or I can connect you right now with a ER nurse.

01:36:47.130 --> 01:36:49.029
Which one would you like? And they're usually

01:36:49.029 --> 01:36:51.130
like, well, yeah, I'll talk to the nurse. They

01:36:51.130 --> 01:36:54.170
just want help. They want guidance. So then they

01:36:54.170 --> 01:36:57.770
have this tele -call, tele -conference with this

01:36:57.770 --> 01:37:00.949
nurse. They do everything from treat at home.

01:37:01.109 --> 01:37:03.050
Okay, are they warm? Take a temperature. Okay,

01:37:03.090 --> 01:37:05.270
let's remove the clothes and leave a diaper on.

01:37:05.390 --> 01:37:07.869
Have you got Tylenol, et cetera, et cetera. Through

01:37:07.869 --> 01:37:12.409
to they can schedule urgent care clinics. They

01:37:12.409 --> 01:37:15.210
can schedule Ubers and Lyfts to that appointment.

01:37:16.060 --> 01:37:18.479
If they need a telehealth and they go to a physician,

01:37:18.680 --> 01:37:20.800
they obviously then can get prescriptions refilled,

01:37:20.840 --> 01:37:22.760
et cetera, et cetera. And even from the mental

01:37:22.760 --> 01:37:24.500
health side, non -emergent, there's a lot of

01:37:24.500 --> 01:37:27.680
those as well. So when you were talking about

01:37:27.680 --> 01:37:30.199
the workload, the third prong, I think, of really

01:37:30.199 --> 01:37:32.619
making a difference in the fire service is whatever

01:37:32.619 --> 01:37:36.760
version of that model integrate in, because this

01:37:36.760 --> 01:37:38.319
is what I love the way they framed it. They said

01:37:38.319 --> 01:37:40.560
EMS should be three tier. We told everyone to

01:37:40.560 --> 01:37:43.729
call 911. So we can't blame them for that. Well,

01:37:43.750 --> 01:37:45.609
we teach them in preschool even. Yeah, exactly.

01:37:45.930 --> 01:37:47.689
And even your dentist, your optician, whatever.

01:37:47.869 --> 01:37:49.609
If this is an emergency, we're closed, call 911.

01:37:50.810 --> 01:37:53.850
But the third test, you've got ALS, you've got

01:37:53.850 --> 01:37:56.130
BLS, where we still go, and then you've got non

01:37:56.130 --> 01:37:58.930
-emergent. And I love that because that probably

01:37:58.930 --> 01:38:02.010
is going to be a solid 20 % or 30 % of calls

01:38:02.010 --> 01:38:05.229
that the patient pays a fraction of the amount

01:38:05.229 --> 01:38:06.989
that they would if they broke the threshold in

01:38:06.989 --> 01:38:10.789
the ER. An ER bed stays open for a true emergency.

01:38:11.439 --> 01:38:13.880
And that crew never even got woken up for that

01:38:13.880 --> 01:38:19.100
call. Yes, we we've looked at that. We have a

01:38:19.100 --> 01:38:22.659
county level EMS or county level dispatch. So

01:38:22.659 --> 01:38:25.920
that's still we previewed it. We looked at it

01:38:25.920 --> 01:38:28.539
like Aurora fire on the other side of the city

01:38:28.539 --> 01:38:31.420
have used it. And I think they saw like a 20

01:38:31.420 --> 01:38:34.529
something percent reduction. in low acuity 911

01:38:34.529 --> 01:38:37.270
calls that made it to the station. Imagine that,

01:38:37.369 --> 01:38:39.369
like that's huge. That's the stuff that never

01:38:39.369 --> 01:38:42.189
happens. You know, I also think about like San

01:38:42.189 --> 01:38:45.909
Antonio Fire that has the app, like they'll send

01:38:45.909 --> 01:38:47.850
you a link and they have a paramedic who works

01:38:47.850 --> 01:38:51.609
in dispatch and that helps them also right size

01:38:51.609 --> 01:38:55.029
the response as well. You know exactly what you're

01:38:55.029 --> 01:38:56.609
talking about. You're like, oh, thanks for calling

01:38:56.609 --> 01:38:59.350
911. Here's a link. It opens up the FaceTime.

01:38:59.789 --> 01:39:02.170
There's a paramedic there who can say, oh, this

01:39:02.170 --> 01:39:03.989
is a real one. Let's get people rolling. From

01:39:03.989 --> 01:39:07.109
a risk mitigation standpoint, you're also not

01:39:07.109 --> 01:39:09.350
having people buzz across the city, lights and

01:39:09.350 --> 01:39:11.949
sirens, on something that they're just ill -informed

01:39:11.949 --> 01:39:14.770
as to what the nature of the call is. So there's

01:39:14.770 --> 01:39:17.890
a lot of really cool stuff that's happening in

01:39:17.890 --> 01:39:21.810
the world from a risk reduction perspective at

01:39:21.810 --> 01:39:26.050
the community level. mobile integrated healthcare

01:39:26.050 --> 01:39:28.609
at West Metro, where we have nurse practitioners

01:39:28.609 --> 01:39:31.590
and a PA that work for the fire department that

01:39:31.590 --> 01:39:34.090
scalp those exact calls that you're talking about

01:39:34.090 --> 01:39:37.970
from a humanist perspective of we connect people

01:39:37.970 --> 01:39:40.529
with exactly what they need instead of the emergency

01:39:40.529 --> 01:39:44.210
room. And then also from a care navigation standpoint.

01:39:44.920 --> 01:39:47.819
which has been huge. Our internal numbers are

01:39:47.819 --> 01:39:50.880
showing once our nurse practitioner makes contact

01:39:50.880 --> 01:39:56.020
with a frequent 911 caller, their calls back

01:39:56.020 --> 01:40:00.539
reduce 78 % over the next 60 days. So again,

01:40:00.819 --> 01:40:04.279
talk about those things as the call that never

01:40:04.279 --> 01:40:06.520
happens is the success. Our nurse practitioner

01:40:06.520 --> 01:40:09.739
will call somebody that we have ongoing, not

01:40:09.739 --> 01:40:12.720
issues, but have complex needs. They'll call

01:40:12.720 --> 01:40:14.590
them and say, hey, what's up? Do you get your

01:40:14.590 --> 01:40:18.470
pills refilled? So we can be proactive in that

01:40:18.470 --> 01:40:21.510
point instead of reactive, which is the traditional

01:40:21.510 --> 01:40:24.810
911 model. And that, again, comes from a care

01:40:24.810 --> 01:40:27.149
navigation standpoint of we have people who just

01:40:27.149 --> 01:40:30.409
lack the faculties to get signed up for Medicaid.

01:40:30.590 --> 01:40:33.550
And they lack the ability to navigate a very

01:40:33.550 --> 01:40:36.250
complex health care system. So if we can do that

01:40:36.250 --> 01:40:39.569
beforehand, again, to your exact point, the other

01:40:39.569 --> 01:40:42.319
thing that we have done. that works really well

01:40:42.319 --> 01:40:46.140
is one of my buddies our ems captain has started

01:40:46.140 --> 01:40:49.399
to work with the nursing homes with their their

01:40:49.399 --> 01:40:52.000
supervisors and providing them their data back

01:40:52.000 --> 01:40:56.560
on how many times we go there what the nature

01:40:56.560 --> 01:40:58.920
of the call is and whether or not this person

01:40:58.920 --> 01:41:03.289
gets uh admitted or how can we fix their problem

01:41:03.289 --> 01:41:05.829
at home, you know, in the nursing homes. One

01:41:05.829 --> 01:41:07.510
thing that we've seen in the Denver metro area

01:41:07.510 --> 01:41:09.890
is private equity has come in and bought a bunch

01:41:09.890 --> 01:41:12.890
of the nursing homes and stripped them of their

01:41:12.890 --> 01:41:17.050
ability to provide in -home care where they're

01:41:17.050 --> 01:41:18.970
saying, oh, you previously had mid -levels that

01:41:18.970 --> 01:41:21.250
did rounds. Now we're not going to do that. Like

01:41:21.250 --> 01:41:24.329
one prime example is one of the senior living

01:41:24.329 --> 01:41:33.460
places around the corner from the in -home or

01:41:33.460 --> 01:41:36.199
available care to now a call button that goes

01:41:36.199 --> 01:41:38.720
to a call center that then triages the person.

01:41:38.859 --> 01:41:41.479
And surprise, when someone triages the person

01:41:41.479 --> 01:41:44.180
over the phone, they're going to send the fire

01:41:44.180 --> 01:41:47.420
department every time. So we look at policy level

01:41:47.420 --> 01:41:50.840
and system level fixes for those exact things

01:41:50.840 --> 01:41:52.500
that you're talking about. And they're so cool

01:41:52.500 --> 01:41:55.840
to see so many different entities trying to fix

01:41:55.840 --> 01:41:58.680
the problems before they happen. And I think,

01:41:58.699 --> 01:42:02.039
again, as far as the three different prongs you

01:42:02.039 --> 01:42:04.399
talked about, that's what's so cool about the

01:42:04.399 --> 01:42:07.539
opportunity to do this job is that we have not

01:42:07.539 --> 01:42:09.479
just the responsibility to our people, but the

01:42:09.479 --> 01:42:12.239
responsibility to the people who call 911 to

01:42:12.239 --> 01:42:15.659
do better. One other really cool thing that our

01:42:15.659 --> 01:42:18.859
city is doing is we actually have remotely placed

01:42:18.859 --> 01:42:23.319
drones that the cops run, and they will self

01:42:23.319 --> 01:42:27.359
-dispatch on fire calls before. We even get toned

01:42:27.359 --> 01:42:30.220
out and they'll have eyes in the sky of whatever

01:42:30.220 --> 01:42:34.720
the incident is. And we can spool up or, you

01:42:34.720 --> 01:42:37.779
know, or slow down our response based on the

01:42:37.779 --> 01:42:40.060
information that we're getting from the drone.

01:42:40.199 --> 01:42:44.600
The cool example of it was we had they were able

01:42:44.600 --> 01:42:47.680
to geo layer in the addresses and they could

01:42:47.680 --> 01:42:51.560
actually we were going on a fire and. Before

01:42:51.560 --> 01:42:54.460
our first engine even arrived, the drone was

01:42:54.460 --> 01:42:57.420
piping in notes into the CAD or the drone operator

01:42:57.420 --> 01:43:00.300
that said, hey, this is an electrical, you know,

01:43:00.300 --> 01:43:03.500
a line down in the backyard. It got the fence

01:43:03.500 --> 01:43:06.039
on fire. Now the fence is getting into the roof.

01:43:06.239 --> 01:43:09.680
And we were able to know exactly where the hazard

01:43:09.680 --> 01:43:11.579
was. We knew that there were lines on the ground

01:43:11.579 --> 01:43:13.789
that hadn't tripped the, you know. tripped out

01:43:13.789 --> 01:43:16.069
the system. So we had live wires in the back

01:43:16.069 --> 01:43:18.409
of the house, and we were able to see that people

01:43:18.409 --> 01:43:21.229
were evacuating before our first engine even

01:43:21.229 --> 01:43:24.770
showed up. And that is just so cool. So like

01:43:24.770 --> 01:43:26.430
I said, I'm so excited about so many different

01:43:26.430 --> 01:43:30.130
things that are happening in our profession.

01:43:30.729 --> 01:43:34.810
And, you know, just to, you know, have an extreme

01:43:34.810 --> 01:43:37.609
tangent from what our, you know, main idea was

01:43:37.609 --> 01:43:40.270
today. But, you know, I'm just very excited for

01:43:40.270 --> 01:43:42.939
the future about what we're doing. I mean, that's

01:43:42.939 --> 01:43:45.159
a perfect example. I'll give you a parallel one.

01:43:45.239 --> 01:43:48.479
I had a gentleman on whose name just fell out

01:43:48.479 --> 01:43:50.420
of my head. I don't know why. Anyway, if you've

01:43:50.420 --> 01:43:53.380
ever seen the footage of the guys, he's got almost

01:43:53.380 --> 01:43:55.380
like an Iron Man suit, but the jets are on his

01:43:55.380 --> 01:43:59.000
arms and he flies. And he started off, you know,

01:43:59.000 --> 01:44:02.760
looking at kind of the, you know, military and

01:44:02.760 --> 01:44:04.840
even first responder space. And then really ended

01:44:04.840 --> 01:44:06.840
up being more like a sport thing, ultimately.

01:44:07.699 --> 01:44:11.010
Richard Browning, that's his name. But what caught

01:44:11.010 --> 01:44:14.050
my eye is they did one for mountain rescue in

01:44:14.050 --> 01:44:17.369
the UK. And the medic basically flew up with

01:44:17.369 --> 01:44:20.289
a backpack to the patient, drops down, you know,

01:44:20.289 --> 01:44:21.489
the bottom of the cliff, wherever they ended

01:44:21.489 --> 01:44:25.170
up falling, packages the patient. And then I

01:44:25.170 --> 01:44:27.149
was telling him, you know, can they fly him down?

01:44:27.229 --> 01:44:28.470
Can they harness him? He's like, well, no, the

01:44:28.470 --> 01:44:31.890
FAA won't allow that. But what you can do, I

01:44:31.890 --> 01:44:34.109
don't know why this is different, but he said

01:44:34.109 --> 01:44:37.250
you can then attach the stretcher to a drone.

01:44:37.920 --> 01:44:40.560
I guess a person can't pilot another person,

01:44:40.600 --> 01:44:43.439
but a drone can. And then the drone flies it

01:44:43.439 --> 01:44:46.399
down to the ambulance and then they receive it

01:44:46.399 --> 01:44:47.760
and then off they go. And obviously the medic

01:44:47.760 --> 01:44:51.239
will follow down. So I agree 100%. The innovation

01:44:51.239 --> 01:44:54.340
is there for technology. What we need to do,

01:44:54.359 --> 01:44:56.500
though, is apply that same innovation to the

01:44:56.500 --> 01:44:59.560
person inside the uniform. And that's, I think,

01:44:59.579 --> 01:45:02.060
what this conversation is. We look at technology.

01:45:02.079 --> 01:45:04.300
We look at drones in wildfire in the example

01:45:04.300 --> 01:45:07.159
that you've given. in a mountain rescue we look

01:45:07.159 --> 01:45:09.579
at you know whole blood and all these incredible

01:45:09.579 --> 01:45:12.779
things that are starting to take flight now so

01:45:12.779 --> 01:45:15.439
the conversation is but we still have to apply

01:45:15.439 --> 01:45:17.659
the same thing to our humans and i want to get

01:45:17.659 --> 01:45:20.439
us from oh let's try and get us to stop dying

01:45:21.119 --> 01:45:23.819
to forging performance in the human being. And

01:45:23.819 --> 01:45:26.180
that involves fitness standards, you know, rest

01:45:26.180 --> 01:45:28.960
and recovery, mental health practicing, you know,

01:45:28.960 --> 01:45:31.460
practices, you know, breath work, all these things

01:45:31.460 --> 01:45:34.140
that create these men and women that physically

01:45:34.140 --> 01:45:37.699
and mentally perform at an extremely high level.

01:45:37.760 --> 01:45:40.279
Because as I say, so many times lives depend

01:45:40.279 --> 01:45:44.000
on us. And being proactive rather than reactive.

01:45:44.239 --> 01:45:47.359
I think that could also be. One of the underlying

01:45:47.359 --> 01:45:50.600
themes of our whole time today is trying to get

01:45:50.600 --> 01:45:52.939
ahead of it. We are reactive. And that's the

01:45:52.939 --> 01:45:55.180
thing. If we're going to give any grace at all,

01:45:55.300 --> 01:45:58.100
the nature of our very profession is reactive.

01:45:58.420 --> 01:46:01.680
Well, it's our whole job. Yeah, exactly. So understanding

01:46:01.680 --> 01:46:03.899
that we have to go into the proactive side to

01:46:03.899 --> 01:46:06.100
fix the things that are killing us too. Yeah.

01:46:06.279 --> 01:46:08.439
When the red light turns on in the sky, you go

01:46:08.439 --> 01:46:10.319
and do stuff and you fix other people's problems.

01:46:10.960 --> 01:46:13.659
Exactly. Well, I want to go to some closing questions,

01:46:13.699 --> 01:46:15.899
but one more area you just touched on, but I

01:46:15.899 --> 01:46:17.760
know we want to take a slightly deeper dive.

01:46:17.979 --> 01:46:20.640
Talk to me about the financial literacy that

01:46:20.640 --> 01:46:24.300
you're doing in the academy and then that layer

01:46:24.300 --> 01:46:26.899
as well of our overall well -being as far as

01:46:26.899 --> 01:46:29.659
the finance side. Well, I think this goes back

01:46:29.659 --> 01:46:35.180
into if you can have somebody who's financially

01:46:36.360 --> 01:46:39.119
astute and making good choices and learning from

01:46:39.119 --> 01:46:42.020
the get -go like i said man i i won the lottery

01:46:42.020 --> 01:46:44.600
when i got this job i was so excited it was the

01:46:44.600 --> 01:46:46.420
most money i'd ever made in my entire life like

01:46:46.420 --> 01:46:49.439
i did i volunteered in the psych department doing

01:46:49.439 --> 01:46:52.039
their experiments when i was in college for beer

01:46:52.039 --> 01:46:54.840
money i worked at a chili's i had you know the

01:46:54.840 --> 01:46:57.939
job at uh driving the wheelchair car like this

01:46:57.939 --> 01:47:01.199
job was it for me i was like i've never made

01:47:01.199 --> 01:47:02.619
this much money in my life i can do whatever

01:47:02.619 --> 01:47:05.449
i want and you know granted in the scale of things

01:47:05.449 --> 01:47:08.010
it's not amazing when you're brand new but it

01:47:08.010 --> 01:47:10.989
was the most i'd ever made and you are in a prime

01:47:10.989 --> 01:47:13.210
opportunity to make some really bad financial

01:47:13.210 --> 01:47:17.310
decisions when you first get hired um you know

01:47:17.310 --> 01:47:19.890
so what we do in our academy is we actually have

01:47:19.890 --> 01:47:22.409
part of it is that it is is financial literacy

01:47:22.409 --> 01:47:25.329
it's a financial wellness it's taught by two

01:47:25.329 --> 01:47:27.729
guys who actually started a podcast called the

01:47:27.729 --> 01:47:30.670
fiscal firehouse they are brilliant dudes um

01:47:31.079 --> 01:47:35.119
louie and baity louie used to run the state budget

01:47:35.119 --> 01:47:38.939
for colorado department of transportation and

01:47:38.939 --> 01:47:41.779
john baity both of those guys are on our eboard

01:47:41.779 --> 01:47:44.500
and they and he went back and got his masters

01:47:44.500 --> 01:47:48.020
in personal finance and his sole mission is to

01:47:48.020 --> 01:47:50.600
get people to not have thousand dollar truck

01:47:50.600 --> 01:47:53.079
payments as soon as they graduate from academy

01:47:53.079 --> 01:47:56.720
so they talk about you know investing early and

01:47:56.720 --> 01:47:58.699
how do you build personal budgets how do you

01:47:58.699 --> 01:48:02.100
make good choices How do you start electing to

01:48:02.100 --> 01:48:05.140
defer some of your money into a 457 or a 401

01:48:05.140 --> 01:48:08.279
or whatever you got? So they have taken it over

01:48:08.279 --> 01:48:10.619
the top. And it's like these dudes mission to

01:48:10.619 --> 01:48:12.600
make sure that we're getting people out of this

01:48:12.600 --> 01:48:15.319
job in a place where they're not staying because

01:48:15.319 --> 01:48:17.359
they have to. They're staying because they want

01:48:17.359 --> 01:48:20.300
to. And so, you know, they've got they talk about

01:48:20.300 --> 01:48:23.020
like pension deferrals and like how you can decide

01:48:23.020 --> 01:48:25.500
when is the best time to take your pension. And

01:48:25.500 --> 01:48:27.699
so they try and target, you know, people throughout

01:48:27.699 --> 01:48:31.739
the spectrum of their. uh their career and they

01:48:31.739 --> 01:48:33.920
have different episodes that are tied to you

01:48:33.920 --> 01:48:35.859
know this financial literacy from the beginning

01:48:35.859 --> 01:48:38.819
to while you're making midlife decisions to when

01:48:38.819 --> 01:48:40.800
you have kids what the hell do you do financially

01:48:40.800 --> 01:48:43.199
when you have kids and you're being cut to pieces

01:48:43.199 --> 01:48:46.920
by 35 copays for ear infections and then you

01:48:46.920 --> 01:48:49.180
know then when you're later in your career how

01:48:49.180 --> 01:48:50.880
are you saving for college and then when you're

01:48:50.880 --> 01:48:53.279
on your way out like like i said how are you

01:48:53.279 --> 01:48:55.000
doing it so you get to leave on your own terms

01:48:55.000 --> 01:48:58.279
and i think that ties back into our our broader

01:48:58.279 --> 01:49:01.500
conversation of people's financial wellness.

01:49:01.760 --> 01:49:03.920
Like if they're working overtimes because they're

01:49:03.920 --> 01:49:06.439
house poor, or they're overextended on a car

01:49:06.439 --> 01:49:08.699
payment, or they've got this, that, or the other

01:49:08.699 --> 01:49:10.560
thing, and this is the most efficient way for

01:49:10.560 --> 01:49:12.699
their family to make enough money to live comfortably,

01:49:12.920 --> 01:49:16.159
then how are we educating people from the get

01:49:16.159 --> 01:49:18.100
-go so they're not putting themselves into that

01:49:18.100 --> 01:49:20.100
situation where they're having to compromise

01:49:20.100 --> 01:49:23.699
their health to do things that we know are bad

01:49:23.699 --> 01:49:30.479
for them to pay those bills? overall wellness,

01:49:30.539 --> 01:49:32.760
I think financial literacy, financial wellness

01:49:32.760 --> 01:49:35.300
is as important as your health, because if you're

01:49:35.300 --> 01:49:37.579
not healthy enough to work, or like you said

01:49:37.579 --> 01:49:40.239
earlier, you're not healthy enough to live five

01:49:40.239 --> 01:49:42.539
years after you finish this job. Why the hell

01:49:42.539 --> 01:49:45.619
are we even doing it? So I wanted to at least

01:49:45.619 --> 01:49:47.859
make sure like that I put that plug in there

01:49:47.859 --> 01:49:50.119
because I think like for all my nerd stuff and

01:49:50.119 --> 01:49:52.319
all this information that all this research that

01:49:52.319 --> 01:49:55.119
I'm doing at the end of the day, like this is

01:49:55.119 --> 01:49:57.720
as important as anything else we talk about.

01:49:58.090 --> 01:50:01.369
is the financial health of the people that do

01:50:01.369 --> 01:50:05.409
this job. I saw that when I went to Anaheim.

01:50:05.729 --> 01:50:07.810
Hialeah, I don't remember if it was just because

01:50:07.810 --> 01:50:10.250
I wasn't there that long, but I bought a car

01:50:10.250 --> 01:50:12.170
when I came to the States. It was, I think, $2

01:50:12.170 --> 01:50:16.569
,700 I paid for a Nissan Sentra, 97. Stick shift.

01:50:17.580 --> 01:50:19.880
And, you know, that's what I had. I got to Anaheim

01:50:19.880 --> 01:50:22.539
and, you know, the California money was a lot

01:50:22.539 --> 01:50:24.720
better than I just left. So same as you. When

01:50:24.720 --> 01:50:26.260
I got there, I was like, oh, my God, you know,

01:50:26.319 --> 01:50:30.239
I'm a millionaire. Yeah. You know, I was still,

01:50:30.359 --> 01:50:33.220
you know, I literally landed in California. So,

01:50:33.300 --> 01:50:36.260
you know, under the flight path of Burbank Airport

01:50:36.260 --> 01:50:38.359
and the little efficiency in the back of a house,

01:50:38.460 --> 01:50:40.960
a real, you know, Hollywood story, if you like.

01:50:41.220 --> 01:50:43.159
So all my money was going into kind of getting

01:50:43.159 --> 01:50:45.279
established, saving, you know, paying all the

01:50:45.279 --> 01:50:49.600
bills. But yeah, my friends had not only expensive

01:50:49.600 --> 01:50:52.039
trucks, but they had jet skis and dirt bikes

01:50:52.039 --> 01:50:55.420
and Winnebago fifth wheels. And they were, you

01:50:55.420 --> 01:50:57.119
know, and then it was when they were doing on

01:50:57.119 --> 01:51:02.399
a jet ski. But yeah, and then it was the more

01:51:02.399 --> 01:51:04.340
the whatever they called it, the interest only

01:51:04.340 --> 01:51:06.140
mortgage, you know, that everyone got in trouble

01:51:06.140 --> 01:51:08.819
with. But luckily, because I come from Florida,

01:51:09.060 --> 01:51:12.239
these California prices, I was just like, there's

01:51:12.239 --> 01:51:16.080
no way I'm not going to spend, you know. $700

01:51:16.080 --> 01:51:19.760
,000 on an 800 square foot house, you lost your

01:51:19.760 --> 01:51:22.699
mind. So because it was so jarring at that time,

01:51:22.800 --> 01:51:24.979
it stopped me. It wasn't like I had great financial

01:51:24.979 --> 01:51:28.260
sense. It was just, it was so jarring that I

01:51:28.260 --> 01:51:31.479
didn't. And years later, and sadly, a lot of

01:51:31.479 --> 01:51:33.300
those guys had lost all those things, had lost

01:51:33.300 --> 01:51:36.439
those homes. And I traded my Nissan Sentra in

01:51:36.439 --> 01:51:39.600
that was still working for 309 ,000 miles on

01:51:39.600 --> 01:51:42.770
the clock. um and it was still going and it was

01:51:42.770 --> 01:51:45.010
kind of that moment that i realized that it just

01:51:45.010 --> 01:51:48.890
gets you from a to b and we are so sold especially

01:51:48.890 --> 01:51:51.090
as men if you want to be a man and you need a

01:51:51.090 --> 01:51:53.649
ram and all this stuff like hell yeah you don't

01:51:53.649 --> 01:51:57.229
so even you know you've got obviously the boom

01:51:57.229 --> 01:51:59.250
and the refinancing all the things but then you've

01:51:59.250 --> 01:52:02.149
got television just telling you over and over

01:52:02.149 --> 01:52:04.229
again you don't have enough you don't you aren't

01:52:04.229 --> 01:52:06.649
enough but if you will be if you have this watch

01:52:06.649 --> 01:52:09.640
and this truck Blah, blah, blah. And so, you

01:52:09.640 --> 01:52:11.939
know, people just being aware of that, aware

01:52:11.939 --> 01:52:14.640
of the propaganda that's just keeping you in

01:52:14.640 --> 01:52:17.260
debt. If you can take a step back and realize

01:52:17.260 --> 01:52:20.939
the game and realize that your, you know, small

01:52:20.939 --> 01:52:23.819
car can actually tow a small trailer, for example,

01:52:23.819 --> 01:52:26.380
it does. They do in Europe all the time and that

01:52:26.380 --> 01:52:28.279
you don't need something that could tow a semi

01:52:28.279 --> 01:52:31.500
trailer just to take your boat or whatever the

01:52:31.500 --> 01:52:35.060
thing is. So debunking the, you know, the capitalistic

01:52:35.060 --> 01:52:37.680
myths. I think it's another arm of this whole

01:52:37.680 --> 01:52:41.720
financial literacy that you can do with so much

01:52:41.720 --> 01:52:46.079
less than the television tells you you can. Well,

01:52:46.119 --> 01:52:48.439
and I think this also goes into a lot of the

01:52:48.439 --> 01:52:51.460
wellness strategies that we talk about. My wife

01:52:51.460 --> 01:52:54.500
and I have a rule. We don't make any big financial

01:52:54.500 --> 01:52:57.039
decisions the first day after shift because we

01:52:57.039 --> 01:53:01.600
know that your mind is not prepared to handle

01:53:01.600 --> 01:53:04.260
the complexity of the long -term decision or

01:53:04.260 --> 01:53:07.159
the long -term consequences. of an issue like

01:53:07.159 --> 01:53:09.180
you're not buying a house you're not buying a

01:53:09.180 --> 01:53:12.300
car you're not making a big call uh when you're

01:53:12.300 --> 01:53:16.779
in in a cognitively vulnerable state and i think

01:53:16.779 --> 01:53:19.659
when you think about how often we put ourselves

01:53:19.659 --> 01:53:23.520
because in my the the way that my dumb mind thinks

01:53:23.520 --> 01:53:25.859
about what we do it's like you're perpetually

01:53:25.859 --> 01:53:28.159
jet lagged and you're perpetually when you get

01:53:28.159 --> 01:53:30.600
off work you're on a different time zone and

01:53:30.600 --> 01:53:32.760
when you think about it that way you're like

01:53:32.760 --> 01:53:36.890
well i'd never buy a car Or I'd never make these

01:53:36.890 --> 01:53:40.649
big decisions in those cognitively vulnerable

01:53:40.649 --> 01:53:44.050
states. And I think that's also just part of

01:53:44.050 --> 01:53:47.949
the campaign is helping people realize and be

01:53:47.949 --> 01:53:49.989
in tune with their own bodies to the point when

01:53:49.989 --> 01:53:52.550
they know like, this is not the best time to

01:53:52.550 --> 01:53:55.510
buy a brand new truck, or this is not the best

01:53:55.510 --> 01:53:59.449
time to be considering a giant purchase. So yes,

01:53:59.609 --> 01:54:01.770
absolutely. I've done a lot of just agreeing

01:54:01.770 --> 01:54:05.220
with you. I'm sorry. you want to pick something

01:54:05.220 --> 01:54:07.100
we don't agree on and then we talk about that

01:54:07.100 --> 01:54:09.300
no no i think this is the thing i think it's

01:54:09.300 --> 01:54:10.939
common sense but yeah i mean when you're talking

01:54:10.939 --> 01:54:13.039
about making financial decisions maybe it's not

01:54:13.039 --> 01:54:14.819
the right time to be driving a million dollar

01:54:14.819 --> 01:54:17.579
ladder truck or pushing medications on a child

01:54:17.579 --> 01:54:20.420
either you know what i mean so it goes back Yeah,

01:54:20.439 --> 01:54:23.560
or if you change shift at a time where we could

01:54:23.560 --> 01:54:28.159
be potentially releasing a bunch of young guys

01:54:28.159 --> 01:54:30.699
in their 20s and young guys and gals in their

01:54:30.699 --> 01:54:33.039
20s with more money than sense, releasing them

01:54:33.039 --> 01:54:35.460
on society in the evening after being awake for

01:54:35.460 --> 01:54:38.760
two days is probably not the best time for people

01:54:38.760 --> 01:54:41.300
to be going out to the bars and things like that.

01:54:41.579 --> 01:54:44.939
Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, the first of the

01:54:44.939 --> 01:54:47.300
closing questions, is there a book or are there

01:54:47.300 --> 01:54:49.899
books that you love to recommend? It can be related

01:54:49.899 --> 01:54:52.199
to our conversation today or completely unrelated.

01:54:52.819 --> 01:54:56.239
Yeah, I'm a weirdo for books. My wife's an English

01:54:56.239 --> 01:55:00.340
teacher, so I get to celebrate all the classics

01:55:00.340 --> 01:55:02.840
that I never read when I was in high school and

01:55:02.840 --> 01:55:04.819
I just spark notes them or did the cliff notes.

01:55:05.100 --> 01:55:08.439
So I've been asked to get reinvigorated with

01:55:08.439 --> 01:55:11.439
some of the classics. I think if you haven't

01:55:11.439 --> 01:55:14.109
read. because you didn't in high school either.

01:55:14.789 --> 01:55:17.850
If you haven't read any Vonnegut, I would say

01:55:17.850 --> 01:55:21.909
some of his perspective on the world, especially

01:55:21.909 --> 01:55:24.869
our world, is fascinating. And specifically,

01:55:25.250 --> 01:55:29.529
Slaughterhouse -Five is a phenomenal book to

01:55:29.529 --> 01:55:33.430
go back into. Vonnegut was a POW in World War

01:55:33.430 --> 01:55:36.859
II. He was a prisoner of war in Dresden when

01:55:36.859 --> 01:55:40.180
it was firebombed. And his perspective and outlook

01:55:40.180 --> 01:55:44.619
on the world is fascinating. His mantra throughout

01:55:44.619 --> 01:55:50.119
that book is, so it goes. And you're not reactive

01:55:50.119 --> 01:55:53.420
to your situation. You just understand, or he

01:55:53.420 --> 01:55:56.939
understands, that the world moves on. And you

01:55:56.939 --> 01:55:58.779
get to decide how you're going to engage with

01:55:58.779 --> 01:56:02.979
it. And so it goes. And I think that is from

01:56:02.979 --> 01:56:05.399
a first responders perspective. When I read it

01:56:05.399 --> 01:56:08.420
through the lens of what we do every day, I think

01:56:08.420 --> 01:56:11.800
that that is a tremendously empowering thought.

01:56:12.000 --> 01:56:15.079
It's a tremendously empowering book. I think

01:56:15.079 --> 01:56:18.619
the calamity and the sadness that we see all

01:56:18.619 --> 01:56:21.960
the time, you have to find ways to process those

01:56:21.960 --> 01:56:24.569
things. There are good ways and there are bad

01:56:24.569 --> 01:56:29.510
ways. But at the end of the day, we have to experience

01:56:29.510 --> 01:56:32.770
those things. So I think some of the old Vonnegut

01:56:32.770 --> 01:56:37.289
is fantastic, applicable. It's funny. It hits

01:56:37.289 --> 01:56:39.989
a lot of the things that we do. I would say Vonnegut

01:56:39.989 --> 01:56:45.489
is a good one. I also found in my dabbling around

01:56:45.489 --> 01:56:48.510
the world with things is a lot of the old Stoic

01:56:48.510 --> 01:56:53.890
work. So Seneca. He was a Stoic back in the day.

01:56:54.649 --> 01:56:59.909
The way that he approaches ethics and the treatment

01:56:59.909 --> 01:57:04.449
of others is fascinating. There's a version of

01:57:04.449 --> 01:57:07.470
the book that you can get that has it in Greek

01:57:07.470 --> 01:57:09.789
on one side and then like those Shakespeare made

01:57:09.789 --> 01:57:12.930
easy books from high school. And then also has

01:57:12.930 --> 01:57:15.529
the English translation. And I find a lot of

01:57:15.529 --> 01:57:17.649
it, especially in like you're in my perspective

01:57:17.649 --> 01:57:22.060
of like, how can we help people? um being really

01:57:22.060 --> 01:57:24.699
awesome like the way that he approaches from

01:57:24.699 --> 01:57:28.859
a stoics perspective interaction with the world

01:57:28.859 --> 01:57:31.420
interaction with people who are in different

01:57:31.420 --> 01:57:35.479
circumstances and just an outlook on humanity

01:57:35.479 --> 01:57:38.779
at whole um is a really interesting thing so

01:57:38.779 --> 01:57:43.069
we can go back to those but i also think um There's

01:57:43.069 --> 01:57:45.710
one that we had to read about an astronaut. I

01:57:45.710 --> 01:57:48.770
wrote this one down. It was super cool. An astronaut's

01:57:48.770 --> 01:57:51.649
guide to life on Earth. And it was Colonel Chris

01:57:51.649 --> 01:57:55.989
Hadfield. And he was a Canadian test pilot who

01:57:55.989 --> 01:57:58.310
all he wanted to do was be an astronaut. And

01:57:58.310 --> 01:58:00.550
he talked about the trials and tribulations of

01:58:00.550 --> 01:58:02.729
getting to that point, the things you have to

01:58:02.729 --> 01:58:05.729
do, the questions of how do you put your family

01:58:05.729 --> 01:58:08.710
first in a system that does not want families

01:58:08.710 --> 01:58:11.409
to be first from a professional perspective.

01:58:12.319 --> 01:58:15.300
was great. I really enjoyed that book. And then

01:58:15.300 --> 01:58:19.479
lastly, the second half of Jacinda Ardern's book,

01:58:19.779 --> 01:58:24.180
A Different Kind of Power, is phenomenal. It

01:58:24.180 --> 01:58:27.260
talks about being in positions where you need

01:58:27.260 --> 01:58:34.020
to create policy and think about how to empathetically

01:58:34.020 --> 01:58:38.300
lead people and how she was... You know, she

01:58:38.300 --> 01:58:39.939
was the prime minister in New Zealand during

01:58:39.939 --> 01:58:43.439
COVID. And she was the prime minister during

01:58:43.439 --> 01:58:48.140
the terror shooting in Christchurch at the Muslim

01:58:48.140 --> 01:58:50.920
mosque. Like she had to lead people through some

01:58:50.920 --> 01:58:53.800
pretty shitty situations. And she always showed

01:58:53.800 --> 01:58:59.579
up being kind and humble and a humanist first.

01:58:59.899 --> 01:59:02.680
So I think like that's a different way to perceive.

01:59:03.899 --> 01:59:06.300
what our role as leaders in the fire service

01:59:06.300 --> 01:59:09.899
is, is to lead a different way, to not bark,

01:59:10.079 --> 01:59:13.239
but to lead with kindness and humanity first.

01:59:13.600 --> 01:59:16.060
So those are all like really cool books that

01:59:16.060 --> 01:59:18.680
I think are from all over the world, like all

01:59:18.680 --> 01:59:20.600
over the zone. Sorry, there was not a consistent

01:59:20.600 --> 01:59:23.899
theme. There doesn't need to be. No, I mean,

01:59:23.920 --> 01:59:25.920
they're all great suggestions. I know the Slaughterhouse

01:59:25.920 --> 01:59:28.380
-Five has been suggested, I think only once before.

01:59:28.439 --> 01:59:31.819
So I've got to read that. Chris, is it Caulfield,

01:59:31.880 --> 01:59:35.819
the astronaut? Mm hmm. Hadfield. Hadfield. That's

01:59:35.819 --> 01:59:39.159
right. Yeah. Caulfield's a coach. Yeah, that's

01:59:39.159 --> 01:59:41.159
someone I want to get on the show. But yeah,

01:59:41.460 --> 01:59:44.199
the prime minister of New Zealand, what surprised

01:59:44.199 --> 01:59:46.340
me is that it looked like she was going to hold

01:59:46.340 --> 01:59:48.300
that kind of stance for the longest time. And

01:59:48.300 --> 01:59:50.859
at the end, she enforced all these mandates.

01:59:51.020 --> 01:59:53.960
And so I don't know. I'd be curious to climb

01:59:53.960 --> 01:59:56.640
into her mind. Like, why? Why did she kind of

01:59:56.640 --> 01:59:58.659
lose that fitting at the end when actually a

01:59:58.659 --> 02:00:00.659
lot of the other nations were coming out of the

02:00:00.659 --> 02:00:04.460
COVID? pandemic and that stance. Really late

02:00:04.460 --> 02:00:06.800
in the game, she did a complete 180 and shut

02:00:06.800 --> 02:00:08.939
the country down. And I'm curious as to what

02:00:08.939 --> 02:00:12.140
the backstory was with that. I would love to

02:00:12.140 --> 02:00:14.159
have dinner with her and just listen and learn

02:00:14.159 --> 02:00:17.039
and see how she thinks about her internet. And

02:00:17.039 --> 02:00:19.500
the crazy part about her, she just was like a

02:00:19.500 --> 02:00:22.380
regular person. She was somebody who grew up

02:00:22.380 --> 02:00:26.279
kind of in the rural part of New Zealand and

02:00:26.279 --> 02:00:28.859
just through a passion and understanding of people.

02:00:30.319 --> 02:00:32.380
was able to move into a pretty influential spot.

02:00:32.640 --> 02:00:35.880
So I just, I really enjoyed her biography for

02:00:35.880 --> 02:00:39.539
that reason is because it shows in a, in a democracy,

02:00:39.659 --> 02:00:43.100
how people with just cool ideas and interesting

02:00:43.100 --> 02:00:46.439
perspectives can, can get a lot of people behind

02:00:46.439 --> 02:00:49.220
them. In a real democracy where you don't pay

02:00:49.220 --> 02:00:54.079
to play. All right. Before we go down that rabbit

02:00:54.079 --> 02:00:58.819
hole, what about films and documentaries that

02:00:58.819 --> 02:01:02.100
you love? Oh, my God. Dude, I've got a six -year

02:01:02.100 --> 02:01:03.319
-old and a four -year -old. I haven't seen a

02:01:03.319 --> 02:01:07.140
real movie in years. We went to go see Bad Guys

02:01:07.140 --> 02:01:09.079
2 in the movie theater yesterday. There were

02:01:09.079 --> 02:01:11.680
some ups and downs. Great plot. I think we've

02:01:11.680 --> 02:01:13.960
celebrated. We got Disney Plus at the beginning

02:01:13.960 --> 02:01:16.140
of COVID, and I think we have celebrated nearly

02:01:16.140 --> 02:01:20.340
every film in there. So I don't know that I'm

02:01:20.340 --> 02:01:22.279
the best guy to talk about because seeing as

02:01:22.279 --> 02:01:24.699
like I referenced Wild Kratts earlier in our

02:01:24.699 --> 02:01:26.619
conversation, if you haven't watched Wild Kratts

02:01:26.619 --> 02:01:28.899
out there and you've got little kids, I think

02:01:28.899 --> 02:01:31.539
that's a good use of time. And enjoy Sesame Street

02:01:31.539 --> 02:01:33.800
as long as it still exists. I think those are

02:01:33.800 --> 02:01:38.720
two things that we should hope for. No, I don't

02:01:38.720 --> 02:01:41.220
think we've watched a grown -up movie and I can't

02:01:41.220 --> 02:01:44.829
even remember the last time. We did watch Superbad

02:01:44.829 --> 02:01:46.710
as a crew once, and I was very uncomfortable.

02:01:46.890 --> 02:01:49.970
When you're 20 and you watch Superbad for the

02:01:49.970 --> 02:01:52.329
first time, you're like, this is great. But then

02:01:52.329 --> 02:01:55.829
when everybody's looking at you as the battalion

02:01:55.829 --> 02:01:57.789
chief, you're like, I need to find my way out

02:01:57.789 --> 02:02:02.159
of this room real quick. I do think, though,

02:02:02.199 --> 02:02:05.479
that's another part that I think is like the

02:02:05.479 --> 02:02:08.319
cultural competency of the movies, the firehouse

02:02:08.319 --> 02:02:11.279
films. And I know when you had the Super Trooper

02:02:11.279 --> 02:02:14.479
guys, like you think about how important those

02:02:14.479 --> 02:02:18.239
films were to young firefighters growing up in

02:02:18.239 --> 02:02:22.319
the late 2000s and the early 2010s. Like that

02:02:22.319 --> 02:02:25.619
was the bottom of our pyramid. And you think

02:02:25.619 --> 02:02:28.260
about, you know, you make you rattle off some

02:02:28.260 --> 02:02:30.560
of those quotes in the firehouse nowadays. And

02:02:30.560 --> 02:02:32.380
there are people who have never seen those movies.

02:02:32.779 --> 02:02:35.800
And there's a generation gap and a translation

02:02:35.800 --> 02:02:39.779
gap on a lot of the movies that, you know, you

02:02:39.779 --> 02:02:42.039
almost need to before you can start in a firehouse,

02:02:42.119 --> 02:02:44.640
you need to watch some of those films so that

02:02:44.640 --> 02:02:47.520
you're up to speed before you come in and somebody

02:02:47.520 --> 02:02:49.720
rips one on you and you're like, whoa, where

02:02:49.720 --> 02:02:53.960
did that come from? But yeah. Also, some of these

02:02:53.960 --> 02:02:57.539
younger kids grew up with the very woke movement

02:02:57.539 --> 02:03:01.180
in Hollywood, too, where everything was suddenly

02:03:01.180 --> 02:03:03.840
offensive. And I remember Robert Downey Jr. was

02:03:03.840 --> 02:03:06.800
on Joe Rogan's show, and they were talking about

02:03:06.800 --> 02:03:09.039
how they couldn't make Tropic Thunder these days.

02:03:09.479 --> 02:03:12.899
And I just remember that. I think it's coming

02:03:12.899 --> 02:03:15.739
out of that now, too. But what a ridiculous statement

02:03:15.739 --> 02:03:18.399
that you can't parody the racism of Hollywood

02:03:18.399 --> 02:03:21.260
in a film because it will offend people that

02:03:21.260 --> 02:03:23.899
think it's racist. I mean, that says it all,

02:03:23.960 --> 02:03:27.100
you know? Yeah, you have one person rattle off

02:03:27.100 --> 02:03:29.960
a couple Rush Hour 2 quotes and you've got yourself

02:03:29.960 --> 02:03:34.460
a real big problem. Exactly. Also a great film.

02:03:34.699 --> 02:03:37.119
Celebrate the entire collection. You can't even

02:03:37.119 --> 02:03:38.939
open your mouth. Of course, Tucker's early work.

02:03:39.239 --> 02:03:41.300
Yeah. South Park, which again, I'd love to get

02:03:41.300 --> 02:03:43.239
those guys on the show one day. First, everyone

02:03:43.239 --> 02:03:46.560
else got canceled, but you didn't. That's a superpower

02:03:46.560 --> 02:03:51.590
in itself. Exactly. All right. Well, the next

02:03:51.590 --> 02:03:53.689
question, is there a person you'd recommend to

02:03:53.689 --> 02:03:56.449
come on this podcast as a guest to speak to the

02:03:56.449 --> 02:03:58.829
first responders, military and associated professions

02:03:58.829 --> 02:04:02.010
of the world? Well, I think my financial, our

02:04:02.010 --> 02:04:05.270
financial guys are awesome. Like the work that

02:04:05.270 --> 02:04:08.529
they do is so funny. They could keep it so lighthearted.

02:04:08.770 --> 02:04:11.729
They're like the most serious, unserious people

02:04:11.729 --> 02:04:15.079
that you could put. I think those guys are great.

02:04:15.239 --> 02:04:17.819
I also think like a really fascinating person

02:04:17.819 --> 02:04:22.300
to talk to would be Kate Capallo. She was with

02:04:22.300 --> 02:04:27.159
DC Fire and EMS for a while. And her PhD is in

02:04:27.159 --> 02:04:30.979
human factors, which even though she said it

02:04:30.979 --> 02:04:33.260
a bunch of times, I still could not be sure of

02:04:33.260 --> 02:04:36.119
what that actually means. I think what it is,

02:04:36.119 --> 02:04:39.619
is system designs that take into account human

02:04:39.619 --> 02:04:42.609
decision making. And every time I've heard her

02:04:42.609 --> 02:04:45.270
talk, I'm just blown away with how smart she

02:04:45.270 --> 02:04:48.529
is and the things that she's experienced in her

02:04:48.529 --> 02:04:54.670
career, good and bad, and also how she has integrated

02:04:54.670 --> 02:04:56.850
into the fire service as a researcher outside

02:04:56.850 --> 02:05:02.250
of our world. I think she'd be fascinating to

02:05:02.250 --> 02:05:05.029
talk to. Okay. Yeah, that's something that's

02:05:05.029 --> 02:05:09.970
come up recently. When I've realized the danger

02:05:09.970 --> 02:05:13.329
of putting out a study that is supposed to be

02:05:13.329 --> 02:05:16.229
looking at firefighter health but is not culturally

02:05:16.229 --> 02:05:20.069
competent, how detrimental that can be. And it's

02:05:20.069 --> 02:05:22.970
not, again, criticizing our researchers because

02:05:22.970 --> 02:05:25.689
they're researchers. But, you know, when there's

02:05:25.689 --> 02:05:27.409
that disconnect, and Joel's study is a perfect

02:05:27.409 --> 02:05:29.369
example, and then the country runs with, oh,

02:05:29.390 --> 02:05:32.760
4896 is better. wasn't joe's fault joel just

02:05:32.760 --> 02:05:35.319
did a study on a quiet department but when you

02:05:35.319 --> 02:05:37.479
know a little knowledge is a dangerous thing

02:05:37.479 --> 02:05:41.380
it can be super detrimental so getting researchers

02:05:41.380 --> 02:05:43.840
that have been in our position or you know like

02:05:43.840 --> 02:05:46.659
sarah obviously she was she was raised in a firefighter

02:05:46.659 --> 02:05:49.640
family but even then like she admitted in a recent

02:05:49.640 --> 02:05:52.100
podcast when i talked about sleep deprivation

02:05:52.100 --> 02:05:54.039
with her a few years ago she was like that's

02:05:54.039 --> 02:05:55.800
stupid he doesn't know what he's talking about

02:05:55.800 --> 02:05:58.220
and then all of a sudden she takes a deep dive

02:05:58.220 --> 02:05:59.779
and like oh my god this is everything that we've

02:05:59.779 --> 02:06:03.119
been talking about So, yeah, so that's an interesting

02:06:03.119 --> 02:06:05.880
topic that's really surfaced recently is if you

02:06:05.880 --> 02:06:08.619
are going to research, in this case, the fire

02:06:08.619 --> 02:06:11.880
service, you really need to be doing the ride

02:06:11.880 --> 02:06:14.000
alongs and all this kind of thing, just like

02:06:14.000 --> 02:06:17.439
our clinicians are, the mental health side, because

02:06:17.439 --> 02:06:19.619
otherwise you just don't understand what you're

02:06:19.619 --> 02:06:22.300
researching. And then therefore you can create

02:06:22.300 --> 02:06:24.460
data that actually sends us in the wrong direction.

02:06:24.960 --> 02:06:27.500
Well, but the great thing about both of them

02:06:27.500 --> 02:06:32.170
is that they both have. They are so involved

02:06:32.170 --> 02:06:34.770
in the community now and, you know, they have

02:06:34.770 --> 02:06:38.109
been for a long time that they are becoming the

02:06:38.109 --> 02:06:41.909
experts. They're becoming us, you know, and I

02:06:41.909 --> 02:06:44.590
think that's what's what's fantastic about, you

02:06:44.590 --> 02:06:47.050
know, the research that NDRI is doing moving

02:06:47.050 --> 02:06:51.229
forward is that they have. SMEs built into the

02:06:51.229 --> 02:06:54.550
process that can put the stepbrothers filter

02:06:54.550 --> 02:06:58.050
on things. Because the translation, and we saw

02:06:58.050 --> 02:07:01.409
it during COVID, we saw it where we are now,

02:07:01.550 --> 02:07:04.130
is that we have these great academic resources.

02:07:04.510 --> 02:07:07.729
We need someone who exists in the middle to translate

02:07:07.729 --> 02:07:11.869
this information in both directions. We need

02:07:11.869 --> 02:07:14.890
some dickhead who knows all the super trooper

02:07:14.890 --> 02:07:18.319
quotes to filter them. going up and then also

02:07:18.319 --> 02:07:21.260
translate the science coming down and offer that

02:07:21.260 --> 02:07:23.420
perspective of how do you operationalize some

02:07:23.420 --> 02:07:26.920
of this stuff and that's i think where we create

02:07:26.920 --> 02:07:29.880
the cultural education campaign to move the needle

02:07:29.880 --> 02:07:32.979
with exactly what you're talking about yeah well

02:07:32.979 --> 02:07:35.939
i think also what to study in the first place

02:07:35.939 --> 02:07:38.060
because if you think about a grant that's like

02:07:38.060 --> 02:07:42.579
oh is 24 48 you know healthier than a 48 96 that

02:07:42.579 --> 02:07:44.779
doesn't even need to be looked at what needs

02:07:44.779 --> 02:07:47.859
to be looked at is The entire Northeast is working

02:07:47.859 --> 02:07:52.000
24 -72. So let's compare that to the 56 -hour

02:07:52.000 --> 02:07:54.079
workweek. Now you have a mind -blowing study

02:07:54.079 --> 02:07:56.619
that would have revealed all the things that

02:07:56.619 --> 02:07:59.100
we talked about several years ago. So that's

02:07:59.100 --> 02:08:01.399
my thing is all that grant money and all that

02:08:01.399 --> 02:08:04.300
time, they could have done exactly the same thing

02:08:04.300 --> 02:08:08.039
with two very, very different shift schedules

02:08:08.039 --> 02:08:10.720
and had some incredible data. So guiding these

02:08:10.720 --> 02:08:13.960
researchers into what the real issue is and where

02:08:13.960 --> 02:08:17.439
we can send you know, send them. So their minds

02:08:17.439 --> 02:08:19.319
will be blown then when they get the data between

02:08:19.319 --> 02:08:23.619
those two. When I also think funding federal

02:08:23.619 --> 02:08:28.140
level research, as well as FEMA, safer grants,

02:08:28.300 --> 02:08:31.079
AFG grants, those are the things that also are

02:08:31.079 --> 02:08:35.720
the bedrock of funding fire service. Like when

02:08:35.720 --> 02:08:37.840
you talk about writing safer grants for four

02:08:37.840 --> 02:08:41.520
spots on engines or writing safer grants to be

02:08:41.520 --> 02:08:43.640
able to up staff ambulances, when you divide

02:08:43.640 --> 02:08:46.399
a finite amount of calls by more people, you

02:08:46.399 --> 02:08:49.359
also reduce the workload there. So I think all

02:08:49.359 --> 02:08:52.159
of these avenues are critical for exactly what

02:08:52.159 --> 02:08:54.260
you're talking about. But if we lose our big

02:08:54.260 --> 02:08:57.460
funding sources at the federal level, the downstream

02:08:57.460 --> 02:09:02.420
impact will be terrible. Yeah. Because it's going

02:09:02.420 --> 02:09:05.060
to put all that pressure. on those line crews

02:09:05.060 --> 02:09:08.380
on the ambulances absolutely in a profession

02:09:08.380 --> 02:09:11.500
we can't end like that no no we're not gonna

02:09:11.500 --> 02:09:15.600
we're not gonna okay good so the last question

02:09:15.600 --> 02:09:17.640
before we make sure we know where to find you

02:09:17.640 --> 02:09:19.520
and then if people are able to see you know your

02:09:19.520 --> 02:09:24.180
studies what do you do to decompress oh we got

02:09:24.180 --> 02:09:28.720
a peloton during uh during uh covid and that

02:09:28.720 --> 02:09:31.770
thing we have put some work on that bad boy I

02:09:31.770 --> 02:09:35.630
also think that, like I said, giving back where

02:09:35.630 --> 02:09:38.729
you can. I fill my cup volunteering in a kindergarten,

02:09:38.970 --> 02:09:42.270
which again presents new boogers and new viruses

02:09:42.270 --> 02:09:46.470
every week. And then I make, I volunteer for

02:09:46.470 --> 02:09:48.510
our, well, when you have a kid on swim team,

02:09:48.569 --> 02:09:51.770
you don't get volunteer, you voluntold. But I

02:09:51.770 --> 02:09:54.229
try and work the pancake station every time that

02:09:54.229 --> 02:09:58.149
I can. I think those are, it's so cool to see.

02:09:58.760 --> 02:10:01.859
little kids grow and come into a sport and see

02:10:01.859 --> 02:10:05.159
their friends and their little packs of snot

02:10:05.159 --> 02:10:08.260
nose, little weenies that things that they come

02:10:08.260 --> 02:10:11.279
up with is so cool. It is so cool to see kids

02:10:11.279 --> 02:10:14.359
develop their own little social packs and things

02:10:14.359 --> 02:10:18.380
like that. That just makes me so happy. I also

02:10:18.380 --> 02:10:21.880
really like talking about this stuff. And by

02:10:21.880 --> 02:10:24.420
the length of our conversation today, I'm sorry,

02:10:24.500 --> 02:10:27.779
but I love this stuff. I like, you know, I presented

02:10:27.779 --> 02:10:30.300
at Science to the Station when this thing was

02:10:30.300 --> 02:10:32.420
just starting up, when our research was starting

02:10:32.420 --> 02:10:38.300
out at the NFA. I've talked about it. One thing

02:10:38.300 --> 02:10:41.500
I really love is I've got what I call a research

02:10:41.500 --> 02:10:44.560
assistant. One of the friends from work, his

02:10:44.560 --> 02:10:47.260
daughter is in a STEM program and she's working

02:10:47.260 --> 02:10:50.479
as my data science research assistant for part

02:10:50.479 --> 02:10:53.039
of her senior year. And we're actually building

02:10:53.039 --> 02:10:58.060
Google Map API models to forecast drive times

02:10:58.060 --> 02:11:00.140
for everybody who works at the fire department

02:11:00.140 --> 02:11:02.899
based on different start times. So that's her

02:11:02.899 --> 02:11:07.420
project. So mentoring. I love trying to create

02:11:07.420 --> 02:11:10.739
a passion for this job in my own weird way. And

02:11:10.739 --> 02:11:14.859
it's not in the traditional way, but I see and

02:11:14.859 --> 02:11:18.359
I hope that it adds value to what we do to help,

02:11:18.460 --> 02:11:23.239
like I said, help weird people and goofy people

02:11:23.239 --> 02:11:27.420
find their place in this job. And that's what

02:11:27.420 --> 02:11:30.979
I love to do. Beautiful. Well, for people listening,

02:11:31.159 --> 02:11:33.199
where are the best places to find you online

02:11:33.199 --> 02:11:37.560
or social media? Social media. I'm a creeper

02:11:37.560 --> 02:11:39.659
on Instagram. I don't post anything on there.

02:11:39.779 --> 02:11:42.239
I don't think I've used Facebook since it wasn't

02:11:42.239 --> 02:11:46.800
cool anymore. That's a long time ago. Yeah. I

02:11:46.800 --> 02:11:48.619
have a LinkedIn. Our director of public health

02:11:48.619 --> 02:11:50.239
for the county said I need to have a LinkedIn.

02:11:50.479 --> 02:11:54.300
So I have a LinkedIn, which is kind of fun. But

02:11:54.300 --> 02:11:56.439
I think you can, you know, you can get me at

02:11:56.439 --> 02:11:58.739
my department email. Like I said, I'll talk you

02:11:58.739 --> 02:12:01.800
in circles about this stuff all day if you catch

02:12:01.800 --> 02:12:06.069
me. So my department email. mbinney at westmetrofire

02:12:06.069 --> 02:12:09.130
.org. Like I said, I love talking about this

02:12:09.130 --> 02:12:11.329
stuff. And if there's anything that I can do

02:12:11.329 --> 02:12:14.529
with biometric implementation or starting these

02:12:14.529 --> 02:12:18.159
processes, I also think data privacy. A lot of

02:12:18.159 --> 02:12:21.260
my training has also been in making sure if we're

02:12:21.260 --> 02:12:23.260
collecting this information, how are we keeping

02:12:23.260 --> 02:12:26.119
it safe so that it can't be used against people,

02:12:26.279 --> 02:12:29.279
but also be used with the noblest of intentions.

02:12:29.680 --> 02:12:32.579
So that's something that I've kind of specialized

02:12:32.579 --> 02:12:35.159
in over the last couple of years. So again, like

02:12:35.159 --> 02:12:37.840
if you're thinking about starting a biometric

02:12:37.840 --> 02:12:40.060
program, reach out because I've screwed a lot

02:12:40.060 --> 02:12:41.739
of things up along the way. And if I can save

02:12:41.739 --> 02:12:45.399
some people some lost sleep, I guess that. That

02:12:45.399 --> 02:12:48.159
helps in a couple of different ways. Amazing.

02:12:48.340 --> 02:12:50.319
Well, I want to thank you so much, Mike. It's

02:12:50.319 --> 02:12:52.380
been such an interesting conversation. I mean,

02:12:52.399 --> 02:12:54.199
your journey in the fire service, the kind of

02:12:54.199 --> 02:12:57.119
unique path that you took when it came to the

02:12:57.119 --> 02:12:59.119
wellness approach, especially with the tech.

02:12:59.640 --> 02:13:01.880
So I want to thank you so, so much for being

02:13:01.880 --> 02:13:03.819
so generous with your time and coming on the

02:13:03.819 --> 02:13:06.619
Behind the Shield podcast today. Thank you very

02:13:06.619 --> 02:13:07.539
much. I appreciate it.