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.com. Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.
As always, my name is James Geering, and this
week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the
show three of the hosts of the Trauma Behind
the Badge podcast and members of the Survive
First family, Doug Monda, Raul Rivas, and Chris
Fields. Now, each of these gentlemen have been
on the show individually, but I wanted to get
them together as a group. We've got two members
of law enforcement and a firefighter offering
a very unique perspective on all things first
responder. So we discuss a host of topics from
the recruitment crisis to organizational betrayal
and everything in between. Now, before we get
to this incredible conversation, as I say every
week, please just take a moment. Go to whichever
app you listen to this on. Subscribe to the show,
leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single
five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,
therefore making it easier for others to find.
And this is a free library of well over 1 ,100
episodes now. So all I ask in return is that
you help share these incredible men and women's
stories so I can get them to every single person
on planet Earth who needs to hear them. So that
being said, I welcome back onto the show Doug,
Chris and Raoul. Enjoy. Well, Doug, Chris and
Raul, I want to start by saying firstly, thank
you all for coming back to the Behind the Shield
podcast. I think I can't remember if it was Doug
or Chris that was the first of you guys that
was on. I know Raul was the most recent one we
did in his home. But, you know, for a long time
now, I've been thinking you guys do your podcast
together all the time. I need to get you on collectively
as guests on the Behind the Shield podcast so
we can put all these minds together. So I want
to start simply by welcoming you back into the
Behind the Shield podcast. Great to be back.
Thanks, man. I appreciate it. So for people listening,
again, each of you has already done your own
episode. Search that on the Behind the Shield
podcast if you want to hear the full conversation
and the full stories. But let's just give an
overview, starting with you, Doug. Give people
listening an overview of your career, any highs
and lows that you want to hit. And then obviously
then we'll dive into some of the topics that
we're talking about today. Yeah, just a little
recap. I'm a retired police officer out of Central
Florida. Spent most of my career on a SWAT team.
Drugs and guns was my specialty. Spent most of
my career chasing guns and drug dealers, things
like that. Over the course of my career, I encountered
a lot of traumatic events, some nationally known,
and led me down a... Long journey, dark, dark
journey down a dark road. And I didn't do so
well when I was on that dark road. And I didn't
take care of myself the way I should have mentally.
I was really good at taking care of myself physically,
but just not mentally. And I ultimately attempted
to take my life back in 2013. And then again
in 2015. And it kind of opened the door for me
to get into this mental health world. Back then,
there really wasn't a whole lot of people doing
what we do and what I started to do. And here
I am today over 10 years later, still. Traveling
around the country, speaking at conferences,
helping first responders get the care that they
need. And I'm still currently the president and
founder of the Survive First Foundation. That's
kind of where I'm at today, 2025. Did I get the
year right? You did. You did indeed. All right.
Well, let's go to Chris then. Chris Fields. Yeah,
Chris Fields, retired Oklahoma City Fire Department.
31 years, 7 months, and 16 days to be exact of
service. Been retired 8 years. Yeah, just finished
my 8th year of retirement. I want to keep sticking
it to the state as long as I can and drawing
that check. I got into the mental health because
I'm kind of like Doug for my own struggles. I
get my platform and I get the chance to speak
and be associated with these guys and you, James,
because of the Oklahoma City bombing and a photo
I was captured in. And I know that because nobody's
going to just have Chris Fields, a retired Oklahoma
City firefighter, come speak. And I know that.
But that's where I get my platform. But to me,
it's all about the cumulative trauma of the.
32, almost 32 -year career. And that's the message
that, you know, I want to get out. And when I
get to go speak and travel and do things, I could
probably be up there for five minutes and just
say, hey, don't wait until the wheels fall off
before you reach out for help and be done. Because
that's mainly, I think that's all of our goal
is to have people not go down the road, you know,
that we went down. What's the old saying about
going upstream and catching people before they
get in the river? And that's kind of what I am.
I know suicide is the ultimate thing we want
to shut down, but I tell people I got a little
soapbox. I was out in L .A. last week, got up
on a soapbox. Especially firefighters, we always
want to talk about this family, this brotherhood
and the sisterhood. If we're really let's step
up like we should, then if we're really going
to call these people our brothers and sisters
and take care of them, you know, no matter what
the issue is with them, whether it's on the job
injury, cancer or mental health stuff. And so
it's just kind of my passion now that to be involved
with it. And I'm honored to be involved with
it. And especially with these guys. Absolutely.
All right. Raul Rivas. Yeah. Well, thanks for
having me on first, James. I appreciate it. I
can't tell you enough. Honored and humbled that
you asked. Yeah, Raul Rivas, also a police officer,
retired now. I'm old, so retired from the Orlando
Police Department. Did 26 years there, 28 total
in law enforcement. Like Chris said, my platform,
the reason I get to... kind of come speak with
these heroes, these national heroes. I was involved
in a pretty big incident, the Pulse nightclub
incident that happened back in 2016. And I, too,
like all of us, I had my mental health journey
afterwards. Not like Chris, I just said again,
I'm stealing everything from Chris, but like
he said, it wasn't just the incident. it was
the cumulative stuff that happened before the
incident uh and i and i it took a long a lot
of work for me to realize that um that that's
what it was so in that journey and after that
journey i got hooked up with these guys uh you
know uh and now i'm part of survive first i'm
on the board for survive first and i basically
commit my time to making sure that first responders
get the help that they need, educate them that
there is help out there, and just making sure
that they know that we're here for them and that
we have a network, we have people around the
country. So when you call, no matter where you're
at, no matter where you're from, we know somebody
that can help you, get you the help you need.
So that's kind of what I do now. Fantastic. Well,
we were having a quick kind of roundtable before
we hit record of some topics that I think are
pertinent, because as Doug said, I mean, he's
been in, you know, the what next space, you know,
when it comes to the mental health of our first
responders for a decade now, this podcast is
almost nine years old. So the conversations that
we were having early on, you know, I think they've
evolved. And there's some amazing topics that
you guys threw out there. The one that I. think
is one of the least discussed apart from sleep
deprivation which is my dead horse that i flog
on a daily basis is organizational betrayal organizational
stress and we'll unpack you know some of these
titles but whether it is you know a police officer
a first responder who did everything right and
then got thrown under the bus from political
side or whether it's just simply passionate,
aggressive first responder who wants to do the
right thing. And they're in a toxic culture where
they tell them to sit down, shut up, you're making
us look bad. I see that being one of the least
discussed pieces of the pie when it comes to
overall mental health. So Chris, you were the
first person that threw that in the ring. So
let's start with you. Talk to me about, you know,
the evolution of this being a big part of the
puzzle that we need to acknowledge. As far as
the organizational, what we call distrust, betrayal,
or I can't remember the word Doug used. It was
better. But, yeah, and like I said, it was one
of those things that I never really, I didn't
experience it personally. You know, I know some
people that have. And like Raul said earlier,
too, it's been going on for probably years. We
just didn't ever have a name for it. You know,
back then we'd say it was us against them. or
the blue shirts against the white shirts, or,
you know, that was just kind of the – it was
just kind of something you expected to, you know,
always think they didn't have your best interest,
you know, on their radar. But I tell you, I've
been – as I've been in this – I call it a game
sometimes for a while. I've seen it more and
more. And one specific example real quick, and
I won't give the city – And I won't give names
and all that. And this isn't anything against
the IFF Center of Excellence either. They had
nothing to do with this. But I know a local union
that was going to help a firefighter get treatment.
He came forward. The city had a policy and said,
if you'll come to us and say you need help, your
first 30 days, 60 days, first time is. Personally,
you know, you don't have to burn time, all that.
Now, if you wait until you've got a DUI or beat
your wife or whatever, if you wait until then,
it's on your dime, which I kind of like that.
Well, guy comes forward. Union's going to step
up and get him there, pay for his airfare, do
some stuff. And he told him what facility he
wanted to go to because he trusted this place.
Well, it wasn't the center of excellence. And
this union said, we can't help you then. He wanted
to go to, and I don't even, it doesn't even matter
where he wanted to go either, but it was just
a personal choice of his where he wanted to go
for help. And the union kind of pulled back and
said, that's not, it's not union backed. So we
really can't, like I said, that's not on the
center of action. That's not on this, this local
that I'm talking about. So I think that one right
there really kind of put me over the. Put me
over the edge on this. I saw it firsthand for
the first time ever. I've always heard stories
and all that. But to hear it, like I say, and
witness it firsthand, I was like. And Doug Monda
says it best, man. A first responder's life is
not to be compromised. And you may only get one
chance. That kid may only reach out one time.
And you're going to throw it back in his face
and say, either you go here. or you're on your
own because you wait till a guy's struggling
he's at the bottom finances come in you know
there's a lot of stuff other involved than just
he's struggling so the finances were a big or
a big part for him to get a little help and in
essence figuratively speaking they turned his
back they turned their back on him and that kind
of like i say that kind of hit home for me actually
seeing it the first time dog you want to jump
in on that Boy, I could go sideways, man. There's
this, man, I could pounce on some people. But
unfortunately, a lot of what Chris has said is
very correct. You know, there's two parts of
being a first responder. There's the business
part of it. We work for a business. A city is
run like a business. A municipality is run like
a business. But we're human beings and we include
the human element into it. So when Chris used
that term that I always say, a first responder,
I'm pretty sure that's our national slogan for
Survive First. A first responder's life cannot
be compromised. And what that means is in order
to run an effective business, to be a business
owner, you have to make compromises. Every year
you go through your books, your budgets, and
you make compromises. And so do cities. But unfortunately,
when it comes to somebody's livelihood, their
life, their well -being, their mental well -being,
their physical well -being in the first responder
world, there is no room to cut corners. There
is no room for compromise. And so that's where
we're losing the battle because unions function
on money, right? They're all about getting their
pay every week and they're about money. And the
same with the departments. And so when it goes
between translation from the city and the unions
to the police officers, it becomes a business
and the firefighters, police officers, dispatchers,
they're getting pushed to the wayside and they're
not getting the quality of care that they could
be receiving. And that right there, all of the...
Things we've done over the past 10 years. I'm
just going to go back 10 years. James, you and
I have known each other 10 years. I think now
Chris and Raul. Matter of fact, let me just step
back. It's good to see you, man. We've missed
you. We know how busy you are. You're still working.
We follow you. It's good to see you smiling.
But anyway, we tried to make leaps and bounds
over the 10 years. But we're still in the same
spot. The numbers haven't changed. The suicide
rate is still radical. The amount of depression
and anxiety and the accumulative trauma and stress
that first responders are going through and getting,
that hasn't changed any over time. If anything,
it's probably gotten worse. And unfortunately,
a lot of people went by numbers, data driven
things and numbers. And in the mental health
world, when it comes to suicide and things like
that, then numbers are grossly projected. They're
not working. And we can't base it on that. We
basically have to base it on the quality of care
within the agencies. The states need to be better
involved. And the big organizations, the unions
and the... On the law enforcement side, the international
chiefs of police, the FBI, National Academy,
organizations like that in the fire world, the
IFF, et cetera, they need to be doing a better
job in getting more involved in helping us create
a better plan for quality care for first responders.
That's kind of where I'm at. Raul, your perspective.
Yeah. First thing I want to say is that one of
the things one of our partners always says is
a lot of times it's not the incident, but how
we're treated afterwards by the agency. That's
what really affects us, right? So this is a huge
topic and so important. around the country find
ourselves talking to agency heads talking to
uh wellness units peer support people and finding
that the agency uh just is not they're not putting
their money where their mouth is that they're
not following through they have checked the box
uh they're happy to have a a wellness unit sign
on the door But don't really check to see what's
being done. And when our people, when our first
responders are struggling and needing help, when
they need support, true support, the agencies,
either they're not equipped to help or just don't
care to. And that sounds very, very rough and
kind of direct and bold, but that's sometimes
I think what it is. I agree with what Doug's
saying that these big organizations, maybe they
can do more. But as agencies, we've got to take
care of ourselves. And I can name off organizations.
And when we talk on the tactical side and when
we talk with the equipment stuff and when we
talk with the best practices when it comes to
officer safety, we don't we don't wait. And I'm
saying as a profession, we don't wait for these
organizations to say, hey, this is the best thing
to do. Or when they do say it's the best thing,
we go ahead and do it. Mental health still is
lagging behind. I do believe that some of these
organizations have said this is what you need
to be doing. And we still can't get the needle
to move in some agencies in the right direction.
You know, we've just talked today to an officer
who was involved in a shooting. And after the
shooting. When she needed the agency the most,
when she just needed support, she just needed
presence, no one was there. And that's the type
of organizational betrayal we're talking about.
And the bad thing is that that's more commonplace
than we think. Yeah. No, I agree completely.
Just to hit on a couple of things, the box checking,
the number of guests I've had on that have done
what I call the EAP Russian roulette. So they
finally found the courage to ask for help. They've
gone to their city or county. They've been given
a sheet with a bunch of numbers. They've gone
through the list. Some of them are disconnected.
Some of them, you know. They answer and the next
scheduling appointment is six months from now.
Some of them, they finally get someone that ends
up being a child psychologist or they finally
get someone who declares that they are experts
in working with first responders. This person
pours their heart out. The counselor starts crying
and says, sorry, I can't help you. Can you leave?
How many people have we lost? If I've heard those
stories, how many people's stories will I never
hear? Because that was the last straw. That was
the last effort of help. And we betrayed them
by putting them in front of the wrong people.
Yeah, that's very true because that actually
happened to me. I had a bad experience with EAP.
Back in my day, I had reached out to EAP on my
own. My partner at the time, he knew something
was bothering me. And I said, yeah, I'm having
some issues. And he said, why don't you reach
out to EAP? And I did. The EAP program that we
had at our agency, you called like a hotline
and then you told them what was going on. I remember
telling them, this is what I'm going through.
And they said, okay, we'll have somebody contact
you. And then I was contacted by a clinician
that was local to where I worked at. So it was
like right down the street from where I worked
at. And as you guys know, where I worked at,
there really wasn't any quality of doctors, I
would say, in that environment. And so it failed
miserably for me by this second visit. And what
I've learned, and this is just my observation,
and I don't really mean to insult any clinician
because they're all wonderful. They're trying
to help people. But what I learned through my
journey and the people that I've interviewed
and spoke to is that EAP is like the public defender
of attorneys. So you can either go out with your
money and buy a good attorney or you can get
the free one that hasn't earned their way yet.
And so with that notion being spread out there
and being observed. First responders just have
no trust in EAP, plus they understand that EAP
bills their city, is in communication with their
city, and so there's that trust factor there.
So, you know, for an agency just to utilize,
and I just went through this, we just helped
an officer with alcohol -related issues, and
he went to his lieutenant and his... chief and
said, I have a drinking problem and I really
need help. And the chief said, well, your drinking
problem, are you drinking at work? And he said,
no, sir. I only drink when I'm home. And the
chief said, well, your problem's at home. That's
none of our, that's not our problem. Go get help
on your own. Call the AP. And that was really
discouraging because there's so many amazing
programs out there that are better than just
sending them to EAP. And that police officer
didn't call EAP. He called me. And he said, hey,
do you have a better plan for me? And we did.
We had a better plan for him. So that's the unfortunate
bad side of EAP. You know, it's not all of them.
It's some of them. And one thing that I also
learned is that everybody always complains about
EAP, but your city doesn't have to use that particular
EAP program. So if you have union reps in your
department, it would behoove them to go out and
vet EAP programs. Like our agency, if you called
EAP, you got three visits. And so I went for
two and the lady, just like Raul, she looked
at me and she was like, oh, my God, you're you're
insane and you're crazy. You need to go see somebody
else and you need to be on medication. That's
just what I got. And so I had to start all over
again and tell my story all over again and relive
it all over again. And it was just a failed program
all the way across the board. If our union reps
and the people in the department that do that
stuff, if they took a little bit of better care
and a little more time on vetting the appropriate
program, it might work better. And what I was
going to say was we had three visits, but the
agency right down the street, they got 36 visits.
That's quite a bit of a difference in an EAP
program. to have three visits versus 36 visits.
So that comes down to having the proper care
in your agency. Yeah. I was going to say, I think
it's one of those roads, too, that's going to
have to – well, first I'm going to back up and
say again, I want to reiterate, my original story
was nothing against the Center of Excellence.
I don't want to get hammered by these people
because I'm a lover, not a fighter, so I don't
like – But I just had lunch with a guy today
who went to the Center of Excellence. Great.
They do great work. So I want to clear that up
if that came out like I was attacking them and
I wasn't. It didn't, Chris. Okay, good. But I
was saying, you know how long it took to build
trust between first responders and clinicians?
You know, there was always that gap that needed
to be bridged, and it's taken a while. I think
the same thing with people actually trusting
their cities or their peer support or however
you want to, whatever you want to call it. They're
going to have to earn that trust because it has,
especially as old as we are back in the day,
it was always us against them. You know, we were
like, especially in the fire department, you
know, we had an old city manager one time that
said, we don't make him any money. We're a liability,
not an asset. you know because we don't make
him any money but so to earn that trust back
and it's just like um we are so you know i'm
working out with the the first responder wellness
division here in oklahoma state as you know danny
long i think you had him on the show uh started
and the amount of calls that we get from people
that are going around there which is fine i mean
call going around their city, going around their
peer support because they still just don't have
that trust. So I think it's going to be that
road of just how we had to build trust with clinicians,
which we have now, which is fantastic. I think
it's going to be the same kind of road learning
to, but they're going to have to lead by example,
you know, and do the right thing. I just wanted
to add into that. So, James, give me a second
here. Chris brought up one of the magic words
is liability. And the agency still run with that
word preceding everything. They worry about liability
first and wellness, you know. 15th on the, you
know, pecking order. So, you know, because when
somebody raises their hand to get help, the first
thing that pops in their mind is a liability
issue. You know, what's that going to, is this
person weak? Is he going to be able to get back
to work? You know, and in that mind frame, instead
of how can we help this person, get them healthy
and see where that goes. I just have, I'm dealing
with an officer right now in a local agency that
is going through some hardships. And they've
got a plethora of documentation, things showing
that this is a mental health issue. And the agency
is reluctant to look at any of it. You know,
because of because this is this the world according
to Raul has not been said or anything like that,
but because of liability issues. You know, that's
what I believe it is. And that word right there,
I think, is another reason that you have some
of this. what we believe is betrayal, what's
perceived to be betrayal, because agencies, I
believe agency heads, are worried about liability.
Yeah, liability is an issue. It was an issue
when I had, as I call it, my situation, the liability.
I was in charge of a SWAT team, so I had access
to automatic weapons, explosives, you name it.
And there was just people in the agency that
were concerned that a guy that, you know, tried
to shoot himself was coming back to work and
carrying a gun around the building. And there
were employees that worked in the agency I worked
at that were concerned about that. And liability
was a thing that was talked about about me for
quite a while. But by the grace of God, I had
a police chief who believed in me. And he said
he's not a liability. He's OK. We went and we
got him help. And the doctor said he's good to
go. He's got a fit for duty letter. And he trusted
me. And not only did I do a good job when I came
back, I always tell everybody the year after
I tried to kill myself, I was officer of the
year. And, you know, I don't know what it's like
in the fire department, but. In a police department,
to be officer of the year is a really hard task
because we had 70 police officers in our agency,
and at no time ever in my career would I say
I was the best one. Like, I had 70 incredible
police officers that I worked with. dispatchers
that were amazing, detectives, supervisors, but
it's a pretty hard task. And I owe that all to
that chief who stuck behind me and got me help.
And when I came back to work, I was healthy and
happy. What he did was he did what most chiefs
don't do. He didn't look at the liability. He
didn't look at the cost factor. He looked at
the human factor. And I know this because he
said it out loud. He's even they even wrote an
article about him. He said, you know, not only
was this guy one of my employees, he was also
my friend over these years. And there's a time
where you have to put your. Put your maybe your
work role to the side and bring your humanity
out and look at somebody and go, hey, how much
is this person's life worth? And that was one
of the very first lessons I learned as a police
officer was I had a knife in my pocket and it
was just a cheap Ace hardware knife. And before
I was a cop, I was an ocean lifeguard. And so
I used to carry this cheap knife in my shorts
when I, you know, a couple times I had to go
out and cut people from fishing nets off the
piers and things like that. So it became like
a lucky knife. And it was an $8 knife. And I
brought it into work when I first became a cop.
And my supervisor, who ultimately became my SWAT
commander, he pulled the knife out of my pocket
and he looked at it and he threw it in a garbage
can. And I go, what'd you do that for? And he
looked at me and he goes, how much did that knife
cost? And I said, eight bucks. And he looked
at me and he says, so you're going to tell me
your life is worth $8? And I said, no, my life's
worth way more than that. And he said, the next
time you buy a piece of equipment that's going
to help you or save you, don't spare any money.
buy the absolute best piece of equipment you
can afford to buy, and that's what your life
is worth. Your life isn't worth $8. So I say
all that to say this, how do you put a price
tag on somebody's head? Not even an employee,
just somebody. I mean, you think about as firefighters
and as police officers, when somebody calls 911
and they're laying in the middle of the street,
begging for help, whether it's an injury or an
assault or just a bad day for them, our agencies
spare no expense on going and helping those people.
I mean, we got two firefighters and two cops
right here. Have you ever in your career seen
us go, oh. We're not going to do this because
it costs a lot of money. No, we spare no expense.
But when it comes time to ourselves and our own
agencies, we compromise. And there's a lot to
be said behind that. There's a lot of work to
be done to ratify, or is that the right word
I'm looking for, to rectify or ratify, to fix
this situation. I'm still learning how to talk
again, James. So, you know, to get this fixed,
like I said, it goes all the way to a state level.
You know, over the past 10 years, James, like
I've really transitioned in my role in this industry.
I have my hands at the state level now. You know,
I work with the state of Florida on their wellness
unit. Just like Chris, I do a lot of stuff in
Raul around the state of Florida. And so I see
it from the governmental level at the Capitol
all the way down to the police officer. I'm going
to give you an example of one of the things that
is happening that we have to look at. In the
state of Florida, we do a thing called a post
-critical incident seminar. Most people know
it as a PCIS. The three of us, I don't know if
you've been to one, James, but I know me, Chris,
and Raul have been to one. And it's a free program.
that is put on by the state and it's a three
-day intensive workshop it's probably the most
healing the most incredible mental health thing
that i have observed yet i've been involved in
maybe eight or ten of them now since we started
doing them and we we allow 35 couples into the
seminar and i literally get to watch 35 couples
heal And smile again and go from the first day
of crying, telling their story to the second
day laughing with their mates and healing. And
it's a great thing to be part of. But here's
the bad side of it. The state of Florida, which
is governed by an organization called FDLA, Florida
Department of Law Enforcement, they put these.
post -critical incident seminars out for anybody
who wants to come in the first responder world,
corrections, dispatch, cops, fire. It's pretty
amazing. And they put that out there. They send
it to every agency in the state of Florida. Every
police chief gets, and every agency gets this
invitation for them to send their employees.
Well, one of the things we discovered is the
chief, hypothetically, and I don't know how it
works in everybody's agency, but the chief gets
the email and the invitation and the flyer. Then
it goes from him or the training department to
the command level. Hey, disseminate this to your
employees. Well, one of the things that's happening
is when it gets to that level, it's not getting
to the employees because the command level is
gone. Well, if I give this to this shift, what
do they call it for the fireside? Is it a shift
or is it a battalion? Or battalion would be,
you know, the shift is which of the days that
we work and the battalion would be, you know,
seven stations of that particular area. OK, so
that that particular shift, just like us in law
enforcement. And so if I give this to this shift.
I know that three officers on this shift or three
firefighters were traumatically damaged at an
incident, whether it be in the Pulse nightclub,
Oklahoma bombing, whatever it is that we've all
been involved in, or just a shooting. These three
officers were involved in a shooting. They really
need this seminar. But if I send them to the
seminar. I'm going to be three bodies down on
the shift. And that's going to cost overtime.
And we don't have the staffing to fill overtime.
So all that takes place, that command level person
doesn't put that information out because he don't
even want to tease the employees with it. because
they're knowing that they're not going to go.
And so that right there, just that one incident
that's taken place, and that's just here in the
state of Florida. And I'm not bashing anybody.
That's just the price of doing business and the
nature of the beast that we're in. But that's
kind of what's taken place. And the way to fix
that is at a state level, a funding level, and
which you could track that all the way down to
people. that go out and vote for their elected
officials. That's why it's so important that
we vet, that we do the right thing, and we take
the time to vote the proper people in the seat
and also make sure that when you're going to
work for an agency, make sure they're a great
agency. Make sure they have a track record and
they have all these things. There's a million
different ways you can look at it, but these
are some of the things that are happening here
and what we're involved in. Doug, you talked
about us being seen as a business, and I've made
this comment a few times. I think this is where,
in the far side, I see the greatest organizational
betrayal. If you actually look at the business
world, I don't know if you've seen these news
articles. It happens here in America, but also
Iceland, the UK have done a trial of this. The
progressive business world has actually shifted
to a four -day work week. four, nine hour days
with a one hour lunch. So they're realizing the
Googles, the Amazons, et cetera. If you invest
in your people, Richard Branson from Virgin is
a perfect example. He's like, if my people are
happy, the customer will be happy, not the other
way around. And so then you look at the fire
and a perfect example, in my opinion, at the
moment of organizational betrayal is you have
management administrators who work 40 hours a
week. who are also responsible for our recruitment
crisis because they were the leadership, who
are telling 56 -hour -a -week firefighters, you
don't deserve to work less than 56. And these
people go to their families every night at 5.
The firefighters work 56. And then as we get
through a deeper recruitment crisis, now you're
talking about mandatory overtime, 80 -hour weeks,
et cetera. Now let's take our union, the IAFF.
I'm not worried about offending anyone, Chris,
so I'll carry this one. They work in a city that
works a 42 hour work week, 24 72. There's no
conversation about them advocating for the rest
of the country working the work week that they
are. So this is where I see a huge organizational
betrayal. You're wearing the gold badge or you're
getting all the union Jews and you're supposed
to be fighting for your people. And you're like,
well, I'm all right. That's it. If you were a
Google, a virgin, a progressive business leader.
You would say the most important asset I have
is not the aerial. It's not the bearcat. It's
the men and women in the uniform. And I think
this is where that shift has to has to change.
If you're in any of these positions and other
people aren't the most important thing to you,
then you should not be in that position. Whether
we're talking in politics or we're talking about
administrator or unions, your number one job
is to make sure that your membership, your men
and women that serve beneath you are physically
prepared, mentally prepared, and go home when
they're supposed to go home. And I think this
is a big part of the conversation when it comes
to organizational betrayal is just the mistakes
of our management. The people that collected
the big checks that had the stripes all down
their arm are being paid for by the men and women
who are actually on the streets. And that is
so unfair. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you, I was just
out in L .A. a couple of weeks ago, out there
for a week. And we all have a friend that's an
L .A. County firefighter. Y 'all know who I'm
talking about. The mandatory overtime these guys
are working is absolutely insane. Now, they're
racking up the bank account. I mean, they get
paid well for it. But I was shocked at the amount
of mandatory. There's some guy that when I was
out there, they were working their sixth or seventh
shift in a row. And they did mention, though,
even in, I think it was L .A., they even did
mention that it's been proposed, talking about
doing a, whatever that's called, looking into
it, a study about changing their shift and everything,
their hours and their going. Because L .A. works
the exact same as Oklahoma City. Kelly Day, 24
on, 24 off, three times in all four days in a
row. And it's 56 hours. But I was shocked. I
was just, I'm like you. I was, and I never, I
never looked at it like that as being organizational,
but that's who's it's mandatory. I mean, so it
is, it's exactly what they're doing. They're,
they're saying, this is what we got to do, or
this is what you have to do, or we'll find somebody
else to do it. You know, basically the amount
of overtime they're working is, is it's, it's
not sustainable. There's no way. I think we get,
I think we get caught. Well, I think leadership
gets caught into the, uh, uh, Well, we're doing
it that way because that's the way we've always
done it. You know, and we've been doing it that
way for the last 30 years. I survived. I mean,
isn't that what we hear a lot, James? I mean,
that's, you know, I survived, so you ought to
be able to survive too. And I keep saying, but
guys, like, in every career, in every generation
before us, there were things that happened that
helped evolve. the profession to where we are
now, whether it be technology, studies, whatever
the case, whatever it is. So I always like, what
are we talking about? Why are we not always looking
to make it better? I don't understand the mentality
of, well, that's the way we've always done it.
It's always worked. So it can't be fixed. Like,
what are you talking about? Can you imagine,
Raul, if you had to make entry to the Pulse nightclub
with a musket and you had to reload it every
time? That's the way we always did it. Right,
right. It's exactly my point. I mean, it just
makes no sense because in every, and correct
me if I'm wrong, in every generation. Every administration,
leadership, there's always something new. There's
always a change. It should always be something.
You know, because every time I go to conferences
around the country, when I went to the firefighter
conference, the big one up in Indianapolis, I
think. Yeah, Indianapolis. Man, that thing was
huge. They had truly. You know, you were out
there looking for the better mousetrap. I mean,
there was everything out there. You know, so
we should always be looking to make it better.
Why are we fighting that? I don't get it. I don't
get it. Well, and firefighters, and I guess we're
like cops. I don't know if cops are the same.
Firefighters hate two things, the way things
are and change. So, you know, they're beating
themselves up. But like you said, they're...
they always want the newest best brightest toy
you know or tool to play with so they're ready
for that to change you know if we had this we
could do better we had that well but there's
so much there's so much tradition in and i can't
speak for the cops but there's so much tradition
in the fire service that if they feel like if
they change something like you say the you know
the work hours that you know Like Oklahoma City,
they've had that same. They went to a third platoon
in 1965. That's when they started that for that,
you know, that cycle. So they've been doing it
since 1965. And that's just I don't think they
think there's another way to do it. Those guys
out in L .A. I was talking to because I was even
saying I was saying, I don't know how Oklahoma
City guys and girls would go for that. If they
would if they jump on board because they only
know what we do now. And those guys and girls
out there were like, oh, we would love it. We
would love to go 24 -72 or whatever it is. But
like you say, I'm like you, Raul. I don't know
why we – now, when I was on the job and young
and stupid, I was the same way. Don't mess with
my job. Don't mess with my tradition. This is
how we do it. But as I've gotten older and mellowed,
and, yeah, I don't know why we fight. fight things
that are going to only make us better as firefighters
and as people and as husbands, as fathers, as
wives. It's going to make us better in every
aspect, and we want to fight it to the core.
And we got to make it clear, we're not talking
about half -cocked ideas, right? We're not talking
about, well, you know, yeah, I heard this guy
Chris said, if we do 27 hours and 79 off, that's
the way to go. He just, he woke up one night
and said that. And that's the way we, no, this
is backed by, and James, I don't mean to, you
know, tell me, this is backed. This isn't just
a fad. There's evidence. stuff. Anyway, I'm sorry.
I can get on the soapbox there. You're absolutely
right. It is evidence -based. It has been for
years. James, we actually, our agency, we were
on 410s. We had gone through all the shifts and
we spent most of my career on the 410s. I'll
tell you, one thing my agency did right is they
got the shift down so that every Everybody in
the agency had three days off, which at four
tens isn't a backbreaker, because if you work
eight, you generally work tens anyway, the time
you get settled in and settled out. And everybody
had a weekend day off. You either had a Saturday
off, you either had Friday, Saturday, or Sunday,
or you had Saturday, Sunday, and Monday off.
And so, you know, the young guy got just as much
quality time as the old guy did, and it worked
well for us. But the guys who, the old timers,
and I've had this conversation with several,
I'll use her old timer, I'm an old timer, but
guys that have been around longer than me. When
I first came back to work after my suicide attempt,
I had older guys ask me questions. And I'll never
forget this one guy, and I love him to this day,
but he looked at me and he was kind of mad at
me. And he said he didn't understand me because
he's like, I've looked at you all these years
and all you do is train and exercise, right,
in my athletic world. And he said, you take such
good care of yourself and I don't see how you
could have a problem. And, you know, it just
looks to me that you're looking for the easy
way out type conversation. And he said, I've
been doing this job longer than you. And I've
done all the things you've done and I've been
through all the things you've been and I'm fine.
And I looked over at him and I said, you're fine.
I said, your cheeks are as red as a brake light.
You've taken 10 deep breaths in one sentence.
Your belly sticks so far past your belt buckle.
You haven't seen your boy part in 20 years. You
don't even know what it looks like. Your high
blood pressure is through the roofs. I tore this
dude a new ass is what I did. And I said, so
you're not okay. You just chose a different route.
You choose your. your mental breakdown can look
like overeating, diabetes, over drinking, not
sleeping, things of that nature. Everybody has
a different path of it. So a lot of these old
timers that think they're okay, they're really
not okay. They just think they are. And they're
just as scared of the change as the new guys.
And you're right, Chris. Cops don't like change
either. The only thing that is different between
cops and firefighters is we don't like fire.
So fuck that. We decided to go pick up guns.
That's the only difference. Y 'all like fire.
We don't like fire. But other than that, we're
just alike. I'm not a fan of lead poisoning,
so you can keep your jug too. Thank you. Exactly.
It's funny, though, with the way we've always
done it. I've done a presentation a couple of
times on the 2472 only when people have asked
me. And I know it's a kind of force multiplier
audience because I don't talk normally. It's
what's called behind the shield. But there's
a couple of slides. One of them are children
in the Victorian ages when we had them working
in factories and cleaning chimneys as young as
eight years old. That's the way we used to do
it. So someone went, that looks awful. We should
probably not send our children because they keep
dying from all these cancers. Another one is
a surgical residency. When they were doing crazy,
crazy hours in the medical school track, there
was a physician, I think it was Dr. Edward Halsett,
if I've got that right. And he was kind of one
of the people that really... created this residency
where he would be up for hours and hours and
hours. And, you know, is that everyone listening?
If that's what your professor is doing, your
teacher, your coach, your lieutenant, that's
what you're going to do. So that stayed. And
then years and years later, they kind of look
back and went, oh, this guy was addicted to cocaine
and heroin. Now, I'm pretty sure I could do a
two day bender on those. So just because that
was the way it was done doesn't mean it's the
right way, whether it's, you know. Children in
a Victorian factory, whether it's a coked up
surgeon, just because that's how you did it in
the past. And I tell my people, you know, Chris
has got the helmets behind him. People will call
that tradition. No, that's a hat. Tradition is
camaraderie. It's courage. It's, you know, it's
teamwork. It's selfless service. That's tradition.
And so the innovation in what we're wearing,
innovation in the tools and the innovation in
the human performance. That's not tradition.
Tradition is forging the best police officer
or firefighter. And that involves innovation.
You do not let go of tradition by forging a path
to be a better first responder. That's right.
That's very well said. Very well said. Yeah,
like you said, James, especially in the fire
world. Remember, everybody wanted to have the
melted shield or the, you know, your gear so
black and dirty that, you know. you couldn't
tell what fire what city you worked for but what
do we do now now you have two or three sets of
gear you uh you know you immediately get deconned
after every you know fire alarm we leave our
self -contains on through salvage and overhaul
now which is it it didn't change anybody's uh
didn't change for didn't change anybody's bravery
didn't change anybody what they're willing to
do It's just a safer, better way to do the job.
And like you said, that's why I'm doing, that's
why we all do what we do. I want every first
responder, cop, firefighter, dispatcher, man,
I want them to do their 25, their 30, whatever
they want to do and get to retirement. I've got
too many, we all know too many that didn't get
to retirement or didn't get many years of it.
The one, you know, like I say, the one that's
always hit on me, I actually made a guy I used
to work with actually made his suicide after
he retired on a call. And that has always stuck
with me. And I thought, I don't want anybody
else to have to experience, you know, that, to
see a brother that didn't get to get, you know.
Like I said, I enjoy sticking it to the, every
month they have to cut me that pension check.
I know they're like, man, he made another one.
So that's what I want everybody to do, keep drawing
them checks as long as they can. Well, just to
jump in again, Doug made the comment about the
figures not really showing the whole picture.
And this is something that I've talked about.
And again, in this presentation, one of the slides
was supposedly, I think it was suicides. the
american fire service in 2024 had it was like
73 77 something like that now i can tell you
in the state of florida alone that we've had
close to that you know i mean locally we've had
you know count several on one hand. That's just
in this county and the surrounding area. But
I asked the audience, I'm like, yeah, so that's
obviously underrepresented as far as them not
being reported. Let's not forget about the alcohol
and drug -related deaths. That's the same exact
issue, the mental health crisis. I said, but
what's the largest part of this puzzle that we're
missing? Our retirees. The military doesn't discount
any death after you've stopped wearing the uniform.
They have a thing called the VA. that keeps counting
as these veterans progress through the years
and most of these diseases and mental health
crises are going to really manifest in your 50s
60s that's when we you know we see most of them
so for example if i did anything i took my own
life i dropped dead of an aneurysm i got cancer
i cease to be a statistic in any fire anything
so this is the other thing is that we're we're
acting like we only have a small amount in police
and fire But actually, if you look at the retirees,
I would argue genuinely that the statistics that
were given are, you know, 10%, if even that,
of all the retirees that we lose so many years
prematurely. And that's not being factored into
the magnitude of this crisis. Yeah, 100%. Yeah,
we were talking about some of that today, Doug,
when you were at the class today. uh fdle's trying
to trying to uh what's the word i'm looking for
they're trying to correct some of that reporting
uh in reference to you know police suicide around
the state uh because i think in the last few
years it's been uh you know single digits is
what's been reported well they went back and
started looking and come to find out that it's
More like in the 40s every year. And that's not
counting retirees. And then that's not counting
the suspicious accidents. Right. So and still
there is still under there's still agencies that
haven't reported anything. You know, so they're
just not reporting those those those incidents.
So, yeah, I think the number is grossly. When
you start adding in the retirees and I don't.
I still don't know if there's a mechanism to
do that yet. Am I wrong? No, you're not wrong.
And, you know, I know the numbers are important
to people and you're right about the numbers.
I want to say it was four were reported for the
state of Florida last year. And Florida is a
big ass state, as we all know. Really big state.
And, you know, for years there was organizations,
maybe one or two of them that that provided all
the data nationally to the organizations. And
they were only reporting the data that was reported
to them. And so they came and they did their
announcement. Excuse me. And they said Florida
had four suicides. Well, the deputy commissioner
of Florida heard that. And he's like. That's
not true because I know of more than four that
we've had this year. So he went and did this
in -depth study and found out that it was 44.
And he went to the state and said, this is unacceptable.
But him and I had this conversation. I was part
of that conversation up at the Capitol. And one
of the things that I told him was, how about
just one? Just one. Suicide, whether it's a firefighter,
cop, dispatcher, corrections officer, whatever
it might be in the first responder world to even
include, you know, a lot of the flight medics
and the nurses that fly out to scene, right?
Any one of those people, one of them is enough.
One should be enough. We should not be losing.
You know, everybody goes, oh, well, you know,
they emphasize a lot on police officers who lost
their lives and firefighters who've lost their
lives in the line of duty. God bless them. I
agree with it. But what are we doing about the
officer or firefighter that's taking, as radical
as it is, taking their own life? to a traumatic
event that's happened in the course of their
career, why do we not look at that the same?
And why do we not put as much care, as much funding,
as much effort into that as we do the officers?
I mean, where I live at, they just had a burial.
They had a parade, a burial of a police dog,
a police dog. I love police dogs. I've had them
my whole career. But they also had an officer
that killed himself. And nobody, nobody from
that department did anything for that officer
who killed himself. But they had a parade and
a funeral for a dog that just died of natural
causes, not being shot in the line of duty. And
so what do you think that agency looks at? Oh,
I am no better than a dog in the street. I'm
not even worth that. And that's a problem that
we have. in its own is the way we look at it.
And maybe you would call that the stigma. I don't
really like that word. I just think of it as
that's just poor taste in leadership and poor
taste in the way we look at the things we do.
And we just have to do a better job of, you know,
brings me back to we put our lives on the line
every day for people we don't know. We don't
even know. They don't even like us. especially
as cops shit everybody loves a firefighter but
everybody hates the police and we put our lives
on the line for those people but for the people
that we love and we work with we're not giving
them the same amount of care and that narrative
has to change well with that i want to throw
something at you before we go to um what you
refer to as the mental health booms i think that's
fascinating that's something we need to unpack
as well i talk a lot about The issues with first
responders, sorry, with firefighter recruitment,
and obviously one of the biggest fixes, and we're
seeing this, the proof is in the pudding in Florida
now. You change the work week, you show these
people that you care. all of a sudden people
are lining up around the building to work for
you. And it's not the only thing. Then you put
in fitness standards and, you know, zero, you
know, costs to access mental health. And, you
know, now all of a sudden you're building this
positive culture. You're choosing the top 10
% of a list. You know, it's a self -licking ice
cream by that point. Law enforcement, though,
you know, there isn't, I mean, with the recruitment
crisis and the overtime, absolutely. But with
the work week, you know, it's not that same obvious.
biggest glaring issue that we need to fix first,
but it's obviously more organizational portrayal.
And that could even be organizationally nationally
through the media and the way that, you know,
the men and women in blue are portrayed. So I'm
much more naive to this, especially Raul and
Doug, talk to me about law enforcement. What
have we got to do to turn things around? So young
men and women line up excited to put on the uniform
like they did when you guys entered the profession.
Man, loaded question. I've got one answer right
away, Raul, while you figure yours out. One of
them is we have to get rid of that anti -cop
rhetoric. We cannot allow that in our country
anymore. And unfortunately, that era that we
went through, you know, the George Floyd era
and a few other eras, it painted this horrible
picture of a cop. And one of the examples I like
to use, Chris, who's not on the show. Chris tells
people, he says, listen, if you hire a plumber
and he comes to your house and he does a crappy
job. Does that mean all the other plumbers in
the world suck and you're never going to hire
another one? It's no different as being a police
officer. Just because one police officer makes
a mistake doesn't mean the whole world has to
turn on every one of them. And when we saw that
take place, why would you want to take a job
where you're going to go do your job and be spit
on? potentially hurt and damaged and shot at
and not be trusted and all these things, if we
don't fix that, we're not going to have police.
We are so nationally short in police officers.
I was just in Hawaii a couple weeks ago speaking
in Maui to the firefighters and cops that were
involved in the Maui fires. And there are 480
police officers down and three police chiefs.
And it just blows my mind away. What you would
think that everybody be lining up to be a cop
in the in the great state of Hawaii. But, you
know, obviously there's cause factors, but not
that's the same thing that we have across the
nation. Just nobody wants to be a cop anymore.
And we're we're putting ourselves in a very dangerous
position where crime will will go rampant and
things of that nature. So we have to. um obviously
get backing from the top and and end this type
of uh i use the word anti -cop rhetoric um and
i'm smelling that from a famous sheriff i saw
on tv he said that i don't even really know what
that means but it sounded good um but we do have
to get rid of that i'm just joking but we we
do have to get rid of that and we have to paint
a better picture And we have to fund. We have
to fund these agencies. It baffles me. This country
will send billions of dollars to other countries
that we've never even been to or we don't even
know. But we don't take care of our own the way
we should. And that's just my take on it. We
just have to do a better job of taking care of
the people who take care of us. Yeah, I think
one of the answers is going to, of course, people
are looking for jobs and police make an okay
living, you know, depending on where you're going.
So you're going to have people coming up. But
in reference to shortages, that's across the
board. I mean, and we just also, he forgot, I
remind him, but we just came back from Los Angeles
probably like a month and a half ago or so. they're
like 3 ,000 short. That's insane. They're supposed
to be for like 13 ,000 and they're like at nine.
So, you know, and that's the same for Chicago
and for LAPD. So that's around the country for
the most part. I think funding is a big deal.
pay the cops better, you'll probably have more
people coming. That's an easy one, low -hanging
fruit right there. Back when we joined as police
officers, if you made a mistake, it was handled
internally. I'm not talking about criminal stuff
and you need to go to jail. I got no problem
with that. If you're policing, you do a crime,
then you go to jail like anybody else. But if
you're doing the job and a mistake is made, you're
doing it right, you've got the right intent,
but a mistake is made, it used to be handled
internally. You've written up and you have a
policy violation and so forth and so on. Now,
any mistake is looked at if it's criminal first.
Then they look to see if you've got a policy
violation. And, you know, there's a bunch of
examples I can give you. I'm not going to get
into that. That's a huge debate. But we have
to get back to agencies backing the people for
doing the right thing for the right reasons.
Sometimes the outcome is not going to be, you
know, cookie cutter. I'll give you a quick example
of this. I just thought of one popped in my head.
We had an officer that took down a woman that
went across a courtyard threatening another woman.
She walked across his courtyard yelling and threatened
another woman about how she's going to beat her
ass. She gets within feet of the other woman
about to put hands on her. Officer intercepts
her and takes her down to the ground. Handcuffs
her. Now, when he took her down, she hit her
head. It was an accident. First thing that was
done was they wanted the officer charged with
a crime. That's the days we live in right now.
And I've got no problem with us being held to
a high standard. We should be. We should be held
to a high standard. We're the first responders.
I've got no problem with that. But we're being
held to a perfect standard now. And I don't know
if that's attainable. And California, they just
had a case, not just, but a year and a half ago
or so. That's one of the things the jury said.
If it's not perfect, then it's a violation of
the law. If that continues, I don't know the
answer to your question. Well, just to dovetail
on that, and I'll throw it to Chris from an outside
perspective, too. You mentioned California. I
saw a news article a few weeks ago. Someone sent
it to me. LAFD, the fire department of LA, their
overtime budget for over a three year period
was a billion dollars with a B. So firstly, the
money is there. As Chris said, I've used this
term all the time. It's a Desmond Tutu quote.
We spend so much time pulling people out of the
river, we forget to go upstream and find out
why they're falling in in the first place. The
money is there, but it's wasted. on all the time
and a half you're paying, forcing these people
to work these spots. Again, let's be completely
honest, because you fucked it up from a management
point of view for years and years and years.
There's no point using, you know, kindergarten
terms for that. You've got the lack of retention.
So you pay police officers, firefighters, you
know, to go through training and then they up
sticks and they go somewhere else with all your
certifications that you paid for. You've got
the workman's comp claims that are through the
roof. You've got the medical retirements. You've
got the, God forbid, life of duty death payments.
And then you've got the millions of dollars in
the lawsuits when we do make the mistakes. Now
you've created a recruitment crisis, lowered
the bar. Now I've seen law enforcement agencies
offer tens and tens and tens of thousands of
dollars of signing bonuses. What is the quality
of the candidate going to be like now? I had
a retired police officer on the show a while
ago who said that. For every bad employee that
you hire, it takes half a million dollars to
get rid of them. So imagine we'd use the word
liability. What is the liability of allowing
your department to be in such crisis that now
you're lowering the bar thinking that's going
to fix it, getting the wrong kind of people in
uniform. And we've all seen those videos. And
now you've just made everything worse rather
than going downstream saying, holy shit, we've
wasted all this money. Let's invest in our police
department. Let's fix the things that are broken.
Let's put the salary where it needs to be. Let's
give them tax breaks or whatever so they can
afford to live in this overly priced affluent
city. And then let's get them back because the
Wall Street Journal had an article a few months
ago showing that Gen Z actually was going into
the trades. But they look at our professions
and they're like, hell no. Law enforcement, their
legs get cut from under them. Fire is so overworked
that they never see their family. And if you
Google health issues of the fire service, it's
a Wikipedia that's 10 pages long. So fix the
things that are broken. You will bring the people
back. But I think the nation has got to understand
that this isn't like the line hasn't tapered
off. It's still descending. And there is going
to be a point of critical mass. And if we do
not fix it, you will call 911. And no one's going
to come. That's that's not scaremongering. It's
the truth. Yeah. We're heading. James, you hit
on the head. We're heading that way. I it's scary
to think about it. But when when you start hearing
when you start going to these bigger agencies
and you hear that the 3000 understaffed, you
know, Chicago, I forget some crazy like that
as well. But. It's relative around the country.
When you go to PDs that are 1 ,000, they're 102
down, which is a big number for them. You've
only got 1 ,000 officers. Unfortunately, there's
going to be a day you're going to be put on hold.
Chris? No. Kind of what Doug hit on was like
the... anti -cop kind of rhetoric you know it's
just like i don't like he said in most cases
everybody loves firefighter except yeah except
management but uh thinking the same thing administrator
yeah but but i was thinking like what doug said
the about the plumber kind of you know just you
would never not call a plumber anymore because
you had one bad one anytime there's i noticed
there's a story about You know, looking on Reels
or Instagram, just all that stuff. And there's
a story about a cop that did something, you know,
great or did this for this elderly person. You'll
see somebody comment and say, you know, I wish
there was more like this. But when you see a
cop that does something like Rose said, that
needs some discipline, needs whatever, and they
do something wrong. The immediate remark is,
just like all the rest of them. So when they
do something good every night, you'll say, well,
there's a few good, but then when they do something
bad, it's like all the rest of them, they all
get put in this one category because they're
under such public scrutiny. It is crazy. If they
would go behind the scenes of a fire department
and what a fire chief deals with every day of
this employee, getting a DUI or this employee
involved in domestic violence or this employee
involved in this. I mean, the fire world doesn't
get the public scrutiny that the officers do.
And I've got several buddies here who are retired
cops and they've discouraged their sons. Two
of them are actually in the fire service now.
And that's a sad statement that you would actually
just you know discourage um somebody from being
a police officer i mean that's just it's just
insane um and that's another thing i think you
know it's one of the things we want a quick quick
fix and it's not going to be quick it took 20
30 years to destroy it it's going to take more
than one you know fiscal year to fix it yeah
you got that right james yeah yeah police officers
are definitely um guilty until proven innocent
i mean yeah yeah without a doubt it's it's it's
sad and it's just going to get worse because
like i said not just the bar but for every police
and fire for every person who's forced to work
extra shifts it's again going back to science
you know neuroscience sleep medicine science
we are more likely to make mistakes so i always
said you know we when do you ever hear When there's
that gray area, you know, shooting or whatever
is in law enforcement, you've got the good shoot
and then you've got the, you know, the clearly
the police completely screwed up. We know of
the both of those. But the one in the middle,
the teenagers, you know, nervous. He's 17. He
just started. He reaches for his license or his
insurance papers that are in the glove box. And,
you know, and there's this confusion is tinted
and all of a sudden shots are fired. When is
anyone ever talking about how many? shifts as
that officer work? When was the last time they
slept? What was their training level? It's always
on the officer, they made a mistake. And the
thing is, the more, you know, understaffed the
department gets, the more underslept, overstressed
these men and women are, and the lower the bar
is created, you're just increasing the chance.
So this defund thing and everything else is like,
oh, let's make it worse. The same way as when
COVID swept through, you couldn't have made it
worse if you tried than saying stay at home.
Don't see anyone you love. Order fast food and
alcohol and binge watch Tiger King. That'll do
it. You know what I mean? So everything that
we were told was completely the opposite, and
it's the same with law enforcement. If you look
at Finland, in their education system, when there's
a school in an area that's struggling, maybe
socioeconomically is not as fortunate as other
areas, they pour more money into it. and they
bring it up with everyone else. What do we do
in America? We penalize those schools in the
poor areas, and we take funding away from them.
It's the same with the first responder professions,
and we need to switch that around. Yeah. Dang,
James Gearing for president. You got my vote.
That sounded better than I've heard in the past
three or four presidents right there. Great conversation.
I mean, you know, this conversation opens the
doors to many different pathways in our profession
that could be worked on. You know, I hope a lot
of people get to see this and take this narrative
back to work with them and try to improve it
and work on it. Because if we don't, it's not
going to get better. It's not going to fix itself.
And, you know, we've got to put more effort into
it. And I'm all for it. I know on my end, I work.
I just said this the other day to a buddy of
mine. He was like, man, I never see you anymore.
And I said, man, I wish I was still a cop. It
was easier. I work harder now than I ever have
in my life. I mean, I was a drug agent, man.
How hard is it to buy and sell drugs and go out
and drink and go to bars and do that stuff? But
this journey here, it's difficult. And what people
don't realize, too, you know, the bottom end
of this conversation, the very bottom end when
it comes to mental health is when you got to
pick up that phone and you have a first responder
on the other end of that phone who's got a gun
in their mouth and their wife screaming in the
background, help me, help me, help my husband.
And you're on the other line trying everything
you can to talk that person out of taking their
own life. And the problem that this person is
having is due to signing up to be a hero. Every
police officer and firefighter, the minute you
sign that line, you become an instant hero. The
same with the military. The day you acknowledge
that you're going to sacrifice your life for
the better, you know, livelihood of human beings,
that puts you in a hero category. And we need
to treat those people like such. And I just hope
that somewhere along the line, we just start
doing a better job. You can always do better.
I believe in that. We can do better, and we need
to do a better job of taking care of each other.
Absolutely. Agreed. When I get to speak, Mal,
I always, always end it with this real quick.
We're talking about taking care of each other.
When I retired March 1, 2017, after 32 years
of service, you know what happened on March 2?
They promoted somebody and put them in my seat.
And the Oklahoma City Fire Department hasn't
missed a beat. Orlando, Coco, I can't remember
the last one you worked at. America I worked
for, so pick one. There you go. None of them
have called us to ask us to come back to work,
except maybe for Doug, or ask our opinion about
anything. So, man, we do. We've got to take care
of each other at the end of the day. Absolutely.
Would you guys have time to just talk about the
mental health boom and the different organizations
that you run and that you trust for people that
are listening before I let you go? Yeah. Okay,
awesome. So let's talk about that. I have, again,
nine years, still kind of a baby compared to
the real kind of long -toothed individuals in
the mental health space and first responders.
But in that short time... I've seen the initial,
you know, we need to smash the stigma to the
evolution of the conversation. But sadly, I've
seen some fantastic organizations that have been
there for the right reason. And I've seen even
how people approach me to want to sponsor this
show. Organizations that even in the rhetoric,
they haven't disguised the fact that there's
a lot of money to be made in first responder
mental health. So talk to me about the, you know,
what you term the mental health boom. Let's talk
about that. What have been some of the low points
when it comes to what are supposed to be trusted
organizations in this, and then what are you
seeing today so that there's some optimism for
people looking for organizations that won't let
them down? I don't know. Doug is probably more
well -spoken on some of the organizations that
he's seen come and go because of his work with
Survive First and all that. As far as the optimism,
I can say it's going to be slow. And like we
always say, if we just reach that one person,
and you really have to believe that because it
gets frustrating at times. I've thought several
times about just going, you know what, I'm tired
of just talking to the wall or whatever. But
being optimistic, I do see a shift. It's a slow
one, but I do see a shift. I spoke at a little
town here in Oklahoma just the other day. They
have a little recruit academy going on, like
a vo -tech technology school. And one of the
towns that's around there came. And I was really
encouraged for the fact that the fire chief was
sitting in there. The assistant fire chief was
sitting in there. One of the people from the
city council was sitting in there. So the fact
that the mental health stuff is being talked
about earlier in careers now, instead of waiting
until, like say, they're in the river and drowning.
But to see that fire chief, real quick, I was
in Sacramento for a week, and I did my presentation
like two times a day to get all the four platoons
that they have and all that. At the very end,
the fire chief had kind of stuck his head in
and out when he could, you know. Well, the last
day he came in, he was in there about the last
20 or 30 minutes. And when I got done, he said,
hey, I want to come up there. And he started
thanking me and thanking the peer support team.
I don't know what conviction came over him. He
spoke for an hour, told his story, told his.
And I told. When I got done, I told their peers,
I said, let me tell you something. I appreciate
you having me out for a week. And I said, but
this group got more from that 45 minutes from
that fire chief than they did from any anything
I said, because that's their fire chief. He just
got up there in front of everybody and was vulnerable.
And, you know, so so that's the optimism I see.
I see I see a shift. towards that and and that's
encouraging yeah there's a lot of good chiefs
out there and there's a lot of good people out
there still doing a good job um you know it's
just in this day and age everybody gets all their
information from social media and unfortunately
social media only wants to show horrible stuff
combat fights, lies, deception, because that's
what sells. And unfortunately, there's a lot
of good people out there doing a lot of good
work. And there's still, there's a lot of good
organizations in the mental health field doing
a great job. Our organization has been, I'll
say, I'm not going to say we're the best, even
though I think we do a great job. But I will
say this, one thing that this organization has
done and which I preach to a lot of people is
we've stayed in our lane the entire time. When
we came to this platform, we made an agreement
of what we were going to provide, the service
we were going to provide for first responders,
and that's all we've ever done. And in the boom,
as you asked, James, when the boom kicked off,
Everybody and their brother, and that's just
unfortunate of humankind, were greedy and were
money driven. And everybody saw all these opportunities
to make money in the first responder industry
because they just think first responders, their
business, their cities, their governments, they
have money, they have money to spend. And companies
came out of the woodworks. Phone companies came
and dumped money. Car companies, you name it,
big corporations came in, dumped tons of money
into the mental health industry only to boost
their company. And then they took their money
and they left. And they're all gone. And all
the fly -by -night companies that came in and
tried to make a quick dollar, they're all gone.
the people that are still around. And the second
part of your question, what organizations would
we, would we vouch for? I mean, there's, there's
tons depending what, what department or what
arena you look in. But what I would say to anybody
is do your research. You always want to look
for the organization or the treatment center
or the provider or the therapeutic group or whatever
it is. Look for lineage. I think, James, you
and I had this conversation a long time ago about
martial arts. You and I are both former martial
artists. And I went to the Gracies. for jiu -jitsu
because I looked at their lineage. They had been
around for so long and they have proven over
decades their quality of work that they've done.
You have to do the same thing in this industry.
You have to look for lineage, look for quality
control, look how long they've been around, look
into their company, look at the good things they've
done, look at their ratings, because you're dealing
with somebody's life, and you don't want to compromise
them and just hire some kook. who just showed
up yesterday and decided, I'm going to start
a business and I'm going to make a bunch of money.
And so I go to this police department and I tell
them, hey, I can do this for you. Never done
it before in their life, but that chief or that
agency sees an opportunity to check a box. And
they can check the box because this dude's going
to sell you his class for $500. But this dude
over here who's been around for 5, 10, 12, 15
years, he's going to charge $800. But we're not
going to go with him because this guy's $300
more cheaper. That's what we have to do is we
have to focus in order to fix that problem is
really take our time and research who it is we're
looking for and what it is we're looking for
and the lineage of that company and also their
rating. Are they doing the right thing? Are they
ethically doing the right thing? Are they honorably
doing the right thing? One thing that I've always
said with my organization, and the guys will
tell you this, I have never let anybody come
near this organization that has a red flag on
them. If your organization has a red flag or
multiple red flags, you can't come play in our
game. You can't come play in our arena because
there's no room for error in this industry. Because
if there is error in this industry, it could
cause somebody's life. And that's unacceptable
to me. So I say it again, really take your time
and look into the organizations, the programs,
the teaching programs, things like that. And
make sure that you're hiring or you're purchasing
or you're using somebody with the proper quality
and the proper education and training that they're
going to give you. Yeah, don't get the $8 knife.
Don't buy the $8 knife. No, no. Buy the microtech.
I think Chris and Doug have kind of hit everything
on the head. You know, I think. We've seen over
the years, you can just go to conferences now
and see the difference from five years ago to
now. When we're talking about wellness conferences,
they've gotten smaller. They've dwindled a little
bit. I think some of the boom that happened and
people getting into the industry, the first responder
mental health industry, they got into it for
the... Maybe they got into it for the right reasons.
I don't mean to say that I know that they didn't,
but they got into it and have fallen by the wayside
for whatever reason. We also have those that
we know did get into it for the greedy reason.
But, yeah, we've seen a shrinkage, if you will,
of just that type stuff. So, you know, there's
people, there's organizations like Survive First
that you can go to that we... We meticulously,
is that the right word, vet resources that we
associate with. So if we're sending you somewhere,
it's because we trust them. We've touched them.
We know what they do, and we trust that. And
if we haven't touched them, we'll be very, very
honest about that. Hey, we've heard of that place,
but we can't give you a... you know, anything
more. We just don't know enough about it. So
we just won't say, you know, too much about that
kind of thing. So the boom was there. The boom
is, I think it's kind of, I think it's on the
downside, if you will. That's just, you know,
from my friendly observations, my humble observations,
I mean, we get the, we're so fortunate to travel
around the country and see uh different resources
and different conferences and and you can see
the difference even at the bigger conferences
that we would go to four or five years ago and
look at look at the conference now you can see
the difference right and the amount of people
there um so it's yeah we're under that so i think
the people we're uh Those that have fallen by
the wayside, I think now what you're getting
is hopefully the people that are in it for the
long haul. And now, like Doug said, you've got
to go ahead and be picky about what you want.
You know, you need to do your own research. There
are many, many resources out there that do a
great job. I look at it as a card, though, you
know, so if you can. This is where I'm trying
to if if. Many of them do decent work. So I can
buy a Yugo and it's going to get me from point
A to point B just fine. I'm telling you that
there's resources out there like a Mercedes that'll
get you from point A to point B. And it's a better
ride in the middle. More comfortable ride and
you're not paying more money. But you got to
do the research and find out. uh and the resources
are out there and if we're gonna if i'm gonna
pump one up uh pump a few up you know you've
got uh chris and i'll let him talk about what
he does in the oklahoman organization he's with
survive versus if one call this week we'll tell
you you know uh what we know you know and we
have a network around the country After action,
call us. We do work around the country. Lighthouse
Health and Wellness, call us. We do work around
the country. Chris, jump in there. No, I was
going to say, especially in Oklahoma, you know,
had the oil boom and then it kind of tailed off.
Same way in the middle, how I said there was
the boom. And it's not that it's a bust, but
you can see that that. The boom level is leveling
off. So I always look at the ones that were there
before the boom, and they're still around after
the boom. Those are the ones that I think more
so are in it for the right reason. And it is,
like they said, it's about vetting them. The
Oklahoma First Sponders Wellness Division, that's
what we do. Me and Danny have been around and
vetted a few facilities, and just like Raul said.
we'll say these are ones, you know, we have,
I would trust them. I would go to them. If we
haven't met them, that's what we'll tell them.
And so I'm like, I'm like the ones that were
there before. And there were, there were ones
that were there before, you know, they were country
before country was cool or however that song
goes, you know? So they were doing this work
long before the boom. And then now that it's
kind of, And you've seen some, you've seen some
of these organizations, these facilities have
removed their first responder program or have
removed, you know, they've still got their mental
health facility, but now they've removed their,
because they've about ran the gamut. They've
about made all they can make off that. So, you
know, that's what I say. It's just a, it's, there's
so many resources out there. It is like buying
a car or, I mean, you just have to. You have
to vet them and make sure that's the one that
fits you. They're all going to tell you they're
a fit for you, but you've got to make sure they
fit you. absolutely well i'll get you guys after
we hang up to send me you know links to any of
the organizations obviously you know survive
first and all the ones that you've mentioned
and i'll put them on the show notes as well but
i want to be mindful of your time i'm sure you
know it's evening for everyone listening for
all of us recording so i know we've got families
and places to go now so i want to thank all of
you firstly for the initial conversation that
we did independently but this has been so so
you know, powerful to get all these perspectives
because you guys have been in this space for
so long after your career and talk about some
of the things that we have. I know it's going
to help the people listening and I know some
of the resources we're going to list are going
to help them from here on in. So I want to thank
all three of you for being so generous with your
time and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast
today. I'm honored. Thank you, James. I'm honored
to be here. Thank you, James. Thank you, man.
It's good to see you. It's good to talk to you
as always and keep up the good work. Definitely.
You've been doing some great work for a long
time and you've been helping a lot of people.
And I will tell you, the three of us are honored
to know you. That's for sure. And that's why
I always tell people when I always talk about
your podcast. I should be compensated for the
work I do for you. But I'm just kidding. No,
but what I tell people is what I like. It's not
just all first responder mental health, man.
It's how sleep hygiene ties into you have. So
you run the gamut of every every aspect of it
may not always be first responder specific, but
it always find its way to tie in somehow. And
so that's what I appreciate about your podcast.