WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.620 This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran 00:00:02.620 --> 00:00:04.980 -owned and operated performance optimization 00:00:04.980 --> 00:00:08.039 company that I introduced recently as a sponsor 00:00:08.039 --> 00:00:10.820 on this show. Well, since then I have actually 00:00:10.820 --> 00:00:13.080 been using my products and I have had incredible 00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:15.939 success. There was initial blood work that was 00:00:15.939 --> 00:00:19.039 extremely detailed and based on that they offered 00:00:19.039 --> 00:00:23.559 supplementation. So I began taking DHEA. bpc 00:00:23.559 --> 00:00:26.539 157 for inflammation based on the fact that i've 00:00:26.539 --> 00:00:28.859 been a stuntman a martial artist and a firefighter 00:00:28.859 --> 00:00:31.980 my whole life lots of aches and pains dihexa 00:00:31.980 --> 00:00:34.759 to help cognition after multiple punches to the 00:00:34.759 --> 00:00:37.820 head and shift work and peptides four months 00:00:37.820 --> 00:00:40.119 later they did a detailed blood work again and 00:00:40.119 --> 00:00:43.140 i was actually able to taper off two of the peptides 00:00:43.140 --> 00:00:45.640 because my body had responded so well to just 00:00:45.640 --> 00:00:48.079 one of them that it was optimized at that point 00:00:48.570 --> 00:00:51.890 So I cannot speak highly enough of the immense 00:00:51.890 --> 00:00:54.390 range of supplementation that they offer, whether 00:00:54.390 --> 00:00:57.409 it's male health, female health, peptides to 00:00:57.409 --> 00:00:59.429 boost your own testosterone, which I would argue 00:00:59.429 --> 00:01:02.429 is needed by a lot of the fire service, or whether 00:01:02.429 --> 00:01:04.569 it's exogenous testosterone needed, especially 00:01:04.569 --> 00:01:08.019 after TBIs or advanced age. Now, as I mentioned 00:01:08.019 --> 00:01:10.400 before, the other side of this company is an 00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:12.900 altruistic arm called the Transcend Foundation, 00:01:13.420 --> 00:01:15.980 which is putting veterans and first responders 00:01:15.980 --> 00:01:19.099 through some of their protocols free of charge. 00:01:19.340 --> 00:01:22.079 Now, Transcend are also offering you, the audience, 00:01:22.260 --> 00:01:25.319 10 % off their protocols. And you can find that 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:28.040 on jamesgearing .com under the Products tab. 00:01:28.359 --> 00:01:30.840 And if you want to hear more about Transcend 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:34.560 and their story, listen to episode 808 with the 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:38.950 founder, Ernie Colling. or go to transcendcompany 00:01:38.950 --> 00:01:42.409 .com. Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. 00:01:42.569 --> 00:01:44.450 As always, my name is James Geering, and this 00:01:44.450 --> 00:01:46.450 week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the 00:01:46.450 --> 00:01:49.549 show three of the hosts of the Trauma Behind 00:01:49.549 --> 00:01:52.930 the Badge podcast and members of the Survive 00:01:52.930 --> 00:01:57.989 First family, Doug Monda, Raul Rivas, and Chris 00:01:57.989 --> 00:02:00.620 Fields. Now, each of these gentlemen have been 00:02:00.620 --> 00:02:02.799 on the show individually, but I wanted to get 00:02:02.799 --> 00:02:05.599 them together as a group. We've got two members 00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:08.740 of law enforcement and a firefighter offering 00:02:08.740 --> 00:02:12.020 a very unique perspective on all things first 00:02:12.020 --> 00:02:15.699 responder. So we discuss a host of topics from 00:02:15.699 --> 00:02:18.360 the recruitment crisis to organizational betrayal 00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:21.759 and everything in between. Now, before we get 00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:24.080 to this incredible conversation, as I say every 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:27.400 week, please just take a moment. Go to whichever 00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:30.289 app you listen to this on. Subscribe to the show, 00:02:30.490 --> 00:02:34.750 leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single 00:02:34.750 --> 00:02:37.949 five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast, 00:02:38.250 --> 00:02:40.750 therefore making it easier for others to find. 00:02:40.969 --> 00:02:45.550 And this is a free library of well over 1 ,100 00:02:45.550 --> 00:02:49.590 episodes now. So all I ask in return is that 00:02:49.590 --> 00:02:52.610 you help share these incredible men and women's 00:02:52.610 --> 00:02:56.169 stories so I can get them to every single person 00:02:56.169 --> 00:02:59.900 on planet Earth who needs to hear them. So that 00:02:59.900 --> 00:03:03.919 being said, I welcome back onto the show Doug, 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:27.650 Chris and Raoul. Enjoy. Well, Doug, Chris and 00:03:27.650 --> 00:03:30.710 Raul, I want to start by saying firstly, thank 00:03:30.710 --> 00:03:33.289 you all for coming back to the Behind the Shield 00:03:33.289 --> 00:03:35.710 podcast. I think I can't remember if it was Doug 00:03:35.710 --> 00:03:37.250 or Chris that was the first of you guys that 00:03:37.250 --> 00:03:39.349 was on. I know Raul was the most recent one we 00:03:39.349 --> 00:03:42.930 did in his home. But, you know, for a long time 00:03:42.930 --> 00:03:45.250 now, I've been thinking you guys do your podcast 00:03:45.250 --> 00:03:48.599 together all the time. I need to get you on collectively 00:03:48.599 --> 00:03:51.439 as guests on the Behind the Shield podcast so 00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:53.620 we can put all these minds together. So I want 00:03:53.620 --> 00:03:55.719 to start simply by welcoming you back into the 00:03:55.719 --> 00:03:59.879 Behind the Shield podcast. Great to be back. 00:04:00.780 --> 00:04:03.939 Thanks, man. I appreciate it. So for people listening, 00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:06.460 again, each of you has already done your own 00:04:06.460 --> 00:04:09.240 episode. Search that on the Behind the Shield 00:04:09.240 --> 00:04:11.259 podcast if you want to hear the full conversation 00:04:11.259 --> 00:04:13.620 and the full stories. But let's just give an 00:04:13.620 --> 00:04:16.060 overview, starting with you, Doug. Give people 00:04:16.060 --> 00:04:19.800 listening an overview of your career, any highs 00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:22.079 and lows that you want to hit. And then obviously 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:23.839 then we'll dive into some of the topics that 00:04:23.839 --> 00:04:26.680 we're talking about today. Yeah, just a little 00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:30.759 recap. I'm a retired police officer out of Central 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:35.980 Florida. Spent most of my career on a SWAT team. 00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:39.620 Drugs and guns was my specialty. Spent most of 00:04:39.620 --> 00:04:43.519 my career chasing guns and drug dealers, things 00:04:43.519 --> 00:04:49.339 like that. Over the course of my career, I encountered 00:04:49.339 --> 00:04:53.620 a lot of traumatic events, some nationally known, 00:04:53.740 --> 00:04:59.759 and led me down a... Long journey, dark, dark 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:03.300 journey down a dark road. And I didn't do so 00:05:03.300 --> 00:05:07.079 well when I was on that dark road. And I didn't 00:05:07.079 --> 00:05:09.800 take care of myself the way I should have mentally. 00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:13.300 I was really good at taking care of myself physically, 00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:17.139 but just not mentally. And I ultimately attempted 00:05:17.139 --> 00:05:21.519 to take my life back in 2013. And then again 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:26.339 in 2015. And it kind of opened the door for me 00:05:26.339 --> 00:05:31.100 to get into this mental health world. Back then, 00:05:31.100 --> 00:05:33.120 there really wasn't a whole lot of people doing 00:05:33.120 --> 00:05:38.379 what we do and what I started to do. And here 00:05:38.379 --> 00:05:43.399 I am today over 10 years later, still. Traveling 00:05:43.399 --> 00:05:45.339 around the country, speaking at conferences, 00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:49.060 helping first responders get the care that they 00:05:49.060 --> 00:05:52.959 need. And I'm still currently the president and 00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:56.720 founder of the Survive First Foundation. That's 00:05:56.720 --> 00:06:01.879 kind of where I'm at today, 2025. Did I get the 00:06:01.879 --> 00:06:08.279 year right? You did. You did indeed. All right. 00:06:08.279 --> 00:06:13.410 Well, let's go to Chris then. Chris Fields. Yeah, 00:06:13.410 --> 00:06:17.269 Chris Fields, retired Oklahoma City Fire Department. 00:06:18.649 --> 00:06:22.129 31 years, 7 months, and 16 days to be exact of 00:06:22.129 --> 00:06:28.430 service. Been retired 8 years. Yeah, just finished 00:06:28.430 --> 00:06:32.129 my 8th year of retirement. I want to keep sticking 00:06:32.129 --> 00:06:33.910 it to the state as long as I can and drawing 00:06:33.910 --> 00:06:39.180 that check. I got into the mental health because 00:06:39.180 --> 00:06:43.019 I'm kind of like Doug for my own struggles. I 00:06:43.019 --> 00:06:46.360 get my platform and I get the chance to speak 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:49.300 and be associated with these guys and you, James, 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:53.300 because of the Oklahoma City bombing and a photo 00:06:53.300 --> 00:06:55.959 I was captured in. And I know that because nobody's 00:06:55.959 --> 00:06:58.199 going to just have Chris Fields, a retired Oklahoma 00:06:58.199 --> 00:07:01.000 City firefighter, come speak. And I know that. 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:03.759 But that's where I get my platform. But to me, 00:07:03.779 --> 00:07:06.920 it's all about the cumulative trauma of the. 00:07:07.639 --> 00:07:11.300 32, almost 32 -year career. And that's the message 00:07:11.300 --> 00:07:14.100 that, you know, I want to get out. And when I 00:07:14.100 --> 00:07:17.000 get to go speak and travel and do things, I could 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:18.519 probably be up there for five minutes and just 00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:21.160 say, hey, don't wait until the wheels fall off 00:07:21.160 --> 00:07:23.879 before you reach out for help and be done. Because 00:07:23.879 --> 00:07:27.759 that's mainly, I think that's all of our goal 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:31.959 is to have people not go down the road, you know, 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:34.860 that we went down. What's the old saying about 00:07:34.860 --> 00:07:38.300 going upstream and catching people before they 00:07:38.300 --> 00:07:41.279 get in the river? And that's kind of what I am. 00:07:41.339 --> 00:07:44.459 I know suicide is the ultimate thing we want 00:07:44.459 --> 00:07:48.560 to shut down, but I tell people I got a little 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:51.000 soapbox. I was out in L .A. last week, got up 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:53.920 on a soapbox. Especially firefighters, we always 00:07:53.920 --> 00:07:56.839 want to talk about this family, this brotherhood 00:07:56.839 --> 00:08:00.240 and the sisterhood. If we're really let's step 00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:01.740 up like we should, then if we're really going 00:08:01.740 --> 00:08:03.399 to call these people our brothers and sisters 00:08:03.399 --> 00:08:06.680 and take care of them, you know, no matter what 00:08:06.680 --> 00:08:09.160 the issue is with them, whether it's on the job 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:13.079 injury, cancer or mental health stuff. And so 00:08:13.079 --> 00:08:17.300 it's just kind of my passion now that to be involved 00:08:17.300 --> 00:08:19.779 with it. And I'm honored to be involved with 00:08:19.779 --> 00:08:23.420 it. And especially with these guys. Absolutely. 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:29.069 All right. Raul Rivas. Yeah. Well, thanks for 00:08:29.069 --> 00:08:31.250 having me on first, James. I appreciate it. I 00:08:31.250 --> 00:08:34.230 can't tell you enough. Honored and humbled that 00:08:34.230 --> 00:08:39.690 you asked. Yeah, Raul Rivas, also a police officer, 00:08:39.990 --> 00:08:44.889 retired now. I'm old, so retired from the Orlando 00:08:44.889 --> 00:08:49.350 Police Department. Did 26 years there, 28 total 00:08:49.350 --> 00:08:54.769 in law enforcement. Like Chris said, my platform, 00:08:55.149 --> 00:08:58.120 the reason I get to... kind of come speak with 00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:01.740 these heroes, these national heroes. I was involved 00:09:01.740 --> 00:09:04.000 in a pretty big incident, the Pulse nightclub 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:07.779 incident that happened back in 2016. And I, too, 00:09:07.879 --> 00:09:11.679 like all of us, I had my mental health journey 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:16.059 afterwards. Not like Chris, I just said again, 00:09:16.179 --> 00:09:18.779 I'm stealing everything from Chris, but like 00:09:18.779 --> 00:09:22.200 he said, it wasn't just the incident. it was 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:24.379 the cumulative stuff that happened before the 00:09:24.379 --> 00:09:27.899 incident uh and i and i it took a long a lot 00:09:27.899 --> 00:09:32.159 of work for me to realize that um that that's 00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:35.360 what it was so in that journey and after that 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:38.960 journey i got hooked up with these guys uh you 00:09:38.960 --> 00:09:43.220 know uh and now i'm part of survive first i'm 00:09:43.220 --> 00:09:46.659 on the board for survive first and i basically 00:09:46.659 --> 00:09:50.350 commit my time to making sure that first responders 00:09:50.350 --> 00:09:54.450 get the help that they need, educate them that 00:09:54.450 --> 00:09:58.870 there is help out there, and just making sure 00:09:58.870 --> 00:10:00.789 that they know that we're here for them and that 00:10:00.789 --> 00:10:03.789 we have a network, we have people around the 00:10:03.789 --> 00:10:06.750 country. So when you call, no matter where you're 00:10:06.750 --> 00:10:09.730 at, no matter where you're from, we know somebody 00:10:09.730 --> 00:10:13.029 that can help you, get you the help you need. 00:10:13.190 --> 00:10:18.460 So that's kind of what I do now. Fantastic. Well, 00:10:18.539 --> 00:10:20.639 we were having a quick kind of roundtable before 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:22.919 we hit record of some topics that I think are 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:25.419 pertinent, because as Doug said, I mean, he's 00:10:25.419 --> 00:10:28.720 been in, you know, the what next space, you know, 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:31.379 when it comes to the mental health of our first 00:10:31.379 --> 00:10:33.860 responders for a decade now, this podcast is 00:10:33.860 --> 00:10:36.799 almost nine years old. So the conversations that 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:39.559 we were having early on, you know, I think they've 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:41.360 evolved. And there's some amazing topics that 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:45.100 you guys threw out there. The one that I. think 00:10:45.100 --> 00:10:47.320 is one of the least discussed apart from sleep 00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:50.480 deprivation which is my dead horse that i flog 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:54.320 on a daily basis is organizational betrayal organizational 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:56.480 stress and we'll unpack you know some of these 00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:59.899 titles but whether it is you know a police officer 00:10:59.899 --> 00:11:01.980 a first responder who did everything right and 00:11:01.980 --> 00:11:04.159 then got thrown under the bus from political 00:11:04.159 --> 00:11:07.220 side or whether it's just simply passionate, 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:10.860 aggressive first responder who wants to do the 00:11:10.860 --> 00:11:13.159 right thing. And they're in a toxic culture where 00:11:13.159 --> 00:11:14.960 they tell them to sit down, shut up, you're making 00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:20.080 us look bad. I see that being one of the least 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:22.600 discussed pieces of the pie when it comes to 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:25.039 overall mental health. So Chris, you were the 00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:27.039 first person that threw that in the ring. So 00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:29.860 let's start with you. Talk to me about, you know, 00:11:29.860 --> 00:11:32.980 the evolution of this being a big part of the 00:11:32.980 --> 00:11:37.419 puzzle that we need to acknowledge. As far as 00:11:37.419 --> 00:11:41.039 the organizational, what we call distrust, betrayal, 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:43.120 or I can't remember the word Doug used. It was 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:46.879 better. But, yeah, and like I said, it was one 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:50.039 of those things that I never really, I didn't 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:53.500 experience it personally. You know, I know some 00:11:53.500 --> 00:11:58.000 people that have. And like Raul said earlier, 00:11:58.100 --> 00:12:01.259 too, it's been going on for probably years. We 00:12:01.259 --> 00:12:03.460 just didn't ever have a name for it. You know, 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:06.460 back then we'd say it was us against them. or 00:12:06.460 --> 00:12:08.539 the blue shirts against the white shirts, or, 00:12:08.600 --> 00:12:11.279 you know, that was just kind of the – it was 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:13.539 just kind of something you expected to, you know, 00:12:13.539 --> 00:12:16.039 always think they didn't have your best interest, 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:22.100 you know, on their radar. But I tell you, I've 00:12:22.100 --> 00:12:26.259 been – as I've been in this – I call it a game 00:12:26.259 --> 00:12:29.360 sometimes for a while. I've seen it more and 00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:34.340 more. And one specific example real quick, and 00:12:34.340 --> 00:12:37.879 I won't give the city – And I won't give names 00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:40.580 and all that. And this isn't anything against 00:12:40.580 --> 00:12:44.539 the IFF Center of Excellence either. They had 00:12:44.539 --> 00:12:49.120 nothing to do with this. But I know a local union 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:52.419 that was going to help a firefighter get treatment. 00:12:52.860 --> 00:12:55.980 He came forward. The city had a policy and said, 00:12:56.179 --> 00:13:03.200 if you'll come to us and say you need help, your 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:06.179 first 30 days, 60 days, first time is. Personally, 00:13:06.379 --> 00:13:08.879 you know, you don't have to burn time, all that. 00:13:09.139 --> 00:13:12.179 Now, if you wait until you've got a DUI or beat 00:13:12.179 --> 00:13:15.480 your wife or whatever, if you wait until then, 00:13:15.620 --> 00:13:18.740 it's on your dime, which I kind of like that. 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:21.340 Well, guy comes forward. Union's going to step 00:13:21.340 --> 00:13:26.639 up and get him there, pay for his airfare, do 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:31.080 some stuff. And he told him what facility he 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:33.320 wanted to go to because he trusted this place. 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:36.090 Well, it wasn't the center of excellence. And 00:13:36.090 --> 00:13:39.529 this union said, we can't help you then. He wanted 00:13:39.529 --> 00:13:41.809 to go to, and I don't even, it doesn't even matter 00:13:41.809 --> 00:13:43.750 where he wanted to go either, but it was just 00:13:43.750 --> 00:13:45.990 a personal choice of his where he wanted to go 00:13:45.990 --> 00:13:51.889 for help. And the union kind of pulled back and 00:13:51.889 --> 00:13:55.590 said, that's not, it's not union backed. So we 00:13:55.590 --> 00:13:57.190 really can't, like I said, that's not on the 00:13:57.190 --> 00:13:59.509 center of action. That's not on this, this local 00:13:59.509 --> 00:14:02.509 that I'm talking about. So I think that one right 00:14:02.509 --> 00:14:05.500 there really kind of put me over the. Put me 00:14:05.500 --> 00:14:09.759 over the edge on this. I saw it firsthand for 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:11.840 the first time ever. I've always heard stories 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:15.360 and all that. But to hear it, like I say, and 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:19.639 witness it firsthand, I was like. And Doug Monda 00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:22.500 says it best, man. A first responder's life is 00:14:22.500 --> 00:14:25.220 not to be compromised. And you may only get one 00:14:25.220 --> 00:14:29.179 chance. That kid may only reach out one time. 00:14:29.740 --> 00:14:31.399 And you're going to throw it back in his face 00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:34.100 and say, either you go here. or you're on your 00:14:34.100 --> 00:14:35.539 own because you wait till a guy's struggling 00:14:35.539 --> 00:14:38.500 he's at the bottom finances come in you know 00:14:38.500 --> 00:14:40.159 there's a lot of stuff other involved than just 00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:43.000 he's struggling so the finances were a big or 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:46.860 a big part for him to get a little help and in 00:14:46.860 --> 00:14:49.720 essence figuratively speaking they turned his 00:14:49.720 --> 00:14:52.580 back they turned their back on him and that kind 00:14:52.580 --> 00:14:54.700 of like i say that kind of hit home for me actually 00:14:54.700 --> 00:14:58.159 seeing it the first time dog you want to jump 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:04.070 in on that Boy, I could go sideways, man. There's 00:15:04.070 --> 00:15:07.710 this, man, I could pounce on some people. But 00:15:07.710 --> 00:15:11.870 unfortunately, a lot of what Chris has said is 00:15:11.870 --> 00:15:17.159 very correct. You know, there's two parts of 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:19.340 being a first responder. There's the business 00:15:19.340 --> 00:15:24.000 part of it. We work for a business. A city is 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:26.899 run like a business. A municipality is run like 00:15:26.899 --> 00:15:30.139 a business. But we're human beings and we include 00:15:30.139 --> 00:15:34.639 the human element into it. So when Chris used 00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:36.899 that term that I always say, a first responder, 00:15:37.179 --> 00:15:41.039 I'm pretty sure that's our national slogan for 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:44.769 Survive First. A first responder's life cannot 00:15:44.769 --> 00:15:48.529 be compromised. And what that means is in order 00:15:48.529 --> 00:15:51.710 to run an effective business, to be a business 00:15:51.710 --> 00:15:54.830 owner, you have to make compromises. Every year 00:15:54.830 --> 00:15:57.549 you go through your books, your budgets, and 00:15:57.549 --> 00:16:01.620 you make compromises. And so do cities. But unfortunately, 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:05.080 when it comes to somebody's livelihood, their 00:16:05.080 --> 00:16:08.779 life, their well -being, their mental well -being, 00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:11.259 their physical well -being in the first responder 00:16:11.259 --> 00:16:15.360 world, there is no room to cut corners. There 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:20.419 is no room for compromise. And so that's where 00:16:20.419 --> 00:16:25.600 we're losing the battle because unions function 00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:29.679 on money, right? They're all about getting their 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:33.139 pay every week and they're about money. And the 00:16:33.139 --> 00:16:37.600 same with the departments. And so when it goes 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:40.419 between translation from the city and the unions 00:16:40.419 --> 00:16:43.320 to the police officers, it becomes a business 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:48.080 and the firefighters, police officers, dispatchers, 00:16:48.100 --> 00:16:50.519 they're getting pushed to the wayside and they're 00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:54.059 not getting the quality of care that they could 00:16:54.059 --> 00:16:59.039 be receiving. And that right there, all of the... 00:16:59.660 --> 00:17:02.519 Things we've done over the past 10 years. I'm 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:05.019 just going to go back 10 years. James, you and 00:17:05.019 --> 00:17:06.960 I have known each other 10 years. I think now 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:11.059 Chris and Raul. Matter of fact, let me just step 00:17:11.059 --> 00:17:12.859 back. It's good to see you, man. We've missed 00:17:12.859 --> 00:17:15.779 you. We know how busy you are. You're still working. 00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:19.440 We follow you. It's good to see you smiling. 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:26.059 But anyway, we tried to make leaps and bounds 00:17:26.059 --> 00:17:29.809 over the 10 years. But we're still in the same 00:17:29.809 --> 00:17:33.990 spot. The numbers haven't changed. The suicide 00:17:33.990 --> 00:17:37.970 rate is still radical. The amount of depression 00:17:37.970 --> 00:17:42.170 and anxiety and the accumulative trauma and stress 00:17:42.170 --> 00:17:45.490 that first responders are going through and getting, 00:17:45.690 --> 00:17:49.549 that hasn't changed any over time. If anything, 00:17:49.890 --> 00:17:53.319 it's probably gotten worse. And unfortunately, 00:17:53.500 --> 00:17:56.900 a lot of people went by numbers, data driven 00:17:56.900 --> 00:18:00.640 things and numbers. And in the mental health 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:04.119 world, when it comes to suicide and things like 00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:09.900 that, then numbers are grossly projected. They're 00:18:09.900 --> 00:18:15.519 not working. And we can't base it on that. We 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:18.480 basically have to base it on the quality of care 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:22.400 within the agencies. The states need to be better 00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:29.740 involved. And the big organizations, the unions 00:18:29.740 --> 00:18:33.960 and the... On the law enforcement side, the international 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:37.539 chiefs of police, the FBI, National Academy, 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:40.660 organizations like that in the fire world, the 00:18:40.660 --> 00:18:44.920 IFF, et cetera, they need to be doing a better 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:48.779 job in getting more involved in helping us create 00:18:48.779 --> 00:18:52.500 a better plan for quality care for first responders. 00:18:53.019 --> 00:18:57.960 That's kind of where I'm at. Raul, your perspective. 00:18:59.940 --> 00:19:06.150 Yeah. First thing I want to say is that one of 00:19:06.150 --> 00:19:08.069 the things one of our partners always says is 00:19:08.069 --> 00:19:11.309 a lot of times it's not the incident, but how 00:19:11.309 --> 00:19:13.809 we're treated afterwards by the agency. That's 00:19:13.809 --> 00:19:17.269 what really affects us, right? So this is a huge 00:19:17.269 --> 00:19:24.829 topic and so important. around the country find 00:19:24.829 --> 00:19:28.589 ourselves talking to agency heads talking to 00:19:28.589 --> 00:19:32.269 uh wellness units peer support people and finding 00:19:32.269 --> 00:19:37.349 that the agency uh just is not they're not putting 00:19:37.349 --> 00:19:39.029 their money where their mouth is that they're 00:19:39.029 --> 00:19:41.390 not following through they have checked the box 00:19:41.390 --> 00:19:46.690 uh they're happy to have a a wellness unit sign 00:19:46.690 --> 00:19:50.529 on the door But don't really check to see what's 00:19:50.529 --> 00:19:56.990 being done. And when our people, when our first 00:19:56.990 --> 00:20:03.190 responders are struggling and needing help, when 00:20:03.190 --> 00:20:09.289 they need support, true support, the agencies, 00:20:09.509 --> 00:20:16.630 either they're not equipped to help or just don't 00:20:16.630 --> 00:20:21.630 care to. And that sounds very, very rough and 00:20:21.630 --> 00:20:25.250 kind of direct and bold, but that's sometimes 00:20:25.250 --> 00:20:29.049 I think what it is. I agree with what Doug's 00:20:29.049 --> 00:20:32.950 saying that these big organizations, maybe they 00:20:32.950 --> 00:20:40.990 can do more. But as agencies, we've got to take 00:20:40.990 --> 00:20:47.490 care of ourselves. And I can name off organizations. 00:20:47.890 --> 00:20:50.390 And when we talk on the tactical side and when 00:20:50.390 --> 00:20:52.609 we talk with the equipment stuff and when we 00:20:52.609 --> 00:20:55.329 talk with the best practices when it comes to 00:20:55.329 --> 00:20:59.450 officer safety, we don't we don't wait. And I'm 00:20:59.450 --> 00:21:02.809 saying as a profession, we don't wait for these 00:21:02.809 --> 00:21:04.849 organizations to say, hey, this is the best thing 00:21:04.849 --> 00:21:07.640 to do. Or when they do say it's the best thing, 00:21:07.700 --> 00:21:11.019 we go ahead and do it. Mental health still is 00:21:11.019 --> 00:21:14.200 lagging behind. I do believe that some of these 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:16.599 organizations have said this is what you need 00:21:16.599 --> 00:21:19.339 to be doing. And we still can't get the needle 00:21:19.339 --> 00:21:23.039 to move in some agencies in the right direction. 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:27.920 You know, we've just talked today to an officer 00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:33.380 who was involved in a shooting. And after the 00:21:33.380 --> 00:21:37.680 shooting. When she needed the agency the most, 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:41.640 when she just needed support, she just needed 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:48.339 presence, no one was there. And that's the type 00:21:48.339 --> 00:21:50.160 of organizational betrayal we're talking about. 00:21:50.380 --> 00:21:55.400 And the bad thing is that that's more commonplace 00:21:55.400 --> 00:22:01.440 than we think. Yeah. No, I agree completely. 00:22:02.269 --> 00:22:04.549 Just to hit on a couple of things, the box checking, 00:22:04.769 --> 00:22:08.869 the number of guests I've had on that have done 00:22:08.869 --> 00:22:11.910 what I call the EAP Russian roulette. So they 00:22:11.910 --> 00:22:15.069 finally found the courage to ask for help. They've 00:22:15.069 --> 00:22:17.349 gone to their city or county. They've been given 00:22:17.349 --> 00:22:20.329 a sheet with a bunch of numbers. They've gone 00:22:20.329 --> 00:22:22.009 through the list. Some of them are disconnected. 00:22:22.289 --> 00:22:25.359 Some of them, you know. They answer and the next 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:27.460 scheduling appointment is six months from now. 00:22:27.579 --> 00:22:29.640 Some of them, they finally get someone that ends 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:33.460 up being a child psychologist or they finally 00:22:33.460 --> 00:22:35.880 get someone who declares that they are experts 00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:38.319 in working with first responders. This person 00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:40.740 pours their heart out. The counselor starts crying 00:22:40.740 --> 00:22:42.880 and says, sorry, I can't help you. Can you leave? 00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:46.039 How many people have we lost? If I've heard those 00:22:46.039 --> 00:22:48.140 stories, how many people's stories will I never 00:22:48.140 --> 00:22:51.960 hear? Because that was the last straw. That was 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:55.119 the last effort of help. And we betrayed them 00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:56.720 by putting them in front of the wrong people. 00:22:58.259 --> 00:23:01.299 Yeah, that's very true because that actually 00:23:01.299 --> 00:23:05.619 happened to me. I had a bad experience with EAP. 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:10.819 Back in my day, I had reached out to EAP on my 00:23:10.819 --> 00:23:15.099 own. My partner at the time, he knew something 00:23:15.099 --> 00:23:17.259 was bothering me. And I said, yeah, I'm having 00:23:17.259 --> 00:23:19.039 some issues. And he said, why don't you reach 00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:25.970 out to EAP? And I did. The EAP program that we 00:23:25.970 --> 00:23:30.150 had at our agency, you called like a hotline 00:23:30.150 --> 00:23:34.049 and then you told them what was going on. I remember 00:23:34.049 --> 00:23:36.529 telling them, this is what I'm going through. 00:23:36.609 --> 00:23:38.710 And they said, okay, we'll have somebody contact 00:23:38.710 --> 00:23:42.349 you. And then I was contacted by a clinician 00:23:42.349 --> 00:23:46.950 that was local to where I worked at. So it was 00:23:46.950 --> 00:23:49.910 like right down the street from where I worked 00:23:49.910 --> 00:23:53.349 at. And as you guys know, where I worked at, 00:23:53.430 --> 00:23:58.529 there really wasn't any quality of doctors, I 00:23:58.529 --> 00:24:01.150 would say, in that environment. And so it failed 00:24:01.150 --> 00:24:07.710 miserably for me by this second visit. And what 00:24:07.710 --> 00:24:11.569 I've learned, and this is just my observation, 00:24:11.849 --> 00:24:14.769 and I don't really mean to insult any clinician 00:24:14.769 --> 00:24:17.289 because they're all wonderful. They're trying 00:24:17.289 --> 00:24:20.359 to help people. But what I learned through my 00:24:20.359 --> 00:24:22.900 journey and the people that I've interviewed 00:24:22.900 --> 00:24:28.579 and spoke to is that EAP is like the public defender 00:24:28.579 --> 00:24:33.480 of attorneys. So you can either go out with your 00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:36.480 money and buy a good attorney or you can get 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:39.180 the free one that hasn't earned their way yet. 00:24:39.539 --> 00:24:43.859 And so with that notion being spread out there 00:24:43.859 --> 00:24:47.210 and being observed. First responders just have 00:24:47.210 --> 00:24:52.910 no trust in EAP, plus they understand that EAP 00:24:52.910 --> 00:24:56.970 bills their city, is in communication with their 00:24:56.970 --> 00:25:00.589 city, and so there's that trust factor there. 00:25:00.809 --> 00:25:04.490 So, you know, for an agency just to utilize, 00:25:04.930 --> 00:25:07.950 and I just went through this, we just helped 00:25:07.950 --> 00:25:11.230 an officer with alcohol -related issues, and 00:25:11.230 --> 00:25:15.920 he went to his lieutenant and his... chief and 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:18.720 said, I have a drinking problem and I really 00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:22.640 need help. And the chief said, well, your drinking 00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:25.240 problem, are you drinking at work? And he said, 00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:28.259 no, sir. I only drink when I'm home. And the 00:25:28.259 --> 00:25:30.420 chief said, well, your problem's at home. That's 00:25:30.420 --> 00:25:32.940 none of our, that's not our problem. Go get help 00:25:32.940 --> 00:25:36.339 on your own. Call the AP. And that was really 00:25:36.339 --> 00:25:38.940 discouraging because there's so many amazing 00:25:38.940 --> 00:25:42.839 programs out there that are better than just 00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:45.500 sending them to EAP. And that police officer 00:25:45.500 --> 00:25:49.180 didn't call EAP. He called me. And he said, hey, 00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:52.440 do you have a better plan for me? And we did. 00:25:52.500 --> 00:25:55.799 We had a better plan for him. So that's the unfortunate 00:25:55.799 --> 00:26:02.099 bad side of EAP. You know, it's not all of them. 00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:06.220 It's some of them. And one thing that I also 00:26:06.220 --> 00:26:09.799 learned is that everybody always complains about 00:26:09.799 --> 00:26:15.359 EAP, but your city doesn't have to use that particular 00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:18.960 EAP program. So if you have union reps in your 00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:22.720 department, it would behoove them to go out and 00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:28.839 vet EAP programs. Like our agency, if you called 00:26:28.839 --> 00:26:33.759 EAP, you got three visits. And so I went for 00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:36.900 two and the lady, just like Raul, she looked 00:26:36.900 --> 00:26:39.559 at me and she was like, oh, my God, you're you're 00:26:39.559 --> 00:26:42.460 insane and you're crazy. You need to go see somebody 00:26:42.460 --> 00:26:46.000 else and you need to be on medication. That's 00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:49.700 just what I got. And so I had to start all over 00:26:49.700 --> 00:26:53.000 again and tell my story all over again and relive 00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:56.799 it all over again. And it was just a failed program 00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:02.630 all the way across the board. If our union reps 00:27:02.630 --> 00:27:05.470 and the people in the department that do that 00:27:05.470 --> 00:27:07.769 stuff, if they took a little bit of better care 00:27:07.769 --> 00:27:10.930 and a little more time on vetting the appropriate 00:27:10.930 --> 00:27:13.849 program, it might work better. And what I was 00:27:13.849 --> 00:27:16.670 going to say was we had three visits, but the 00:27:16.670 --> 00:27:20.269 agency right down the street, they got 36 visits. 00:27:21.150 --> 00:27:23.809 That's quite a bit of a difference in an EAP 00:27:23.809 --> 00:27:28.329 program. to have three visits versus 36 visits. 00:27:29.549 --> 00:27:34.650 So that comes down to having the proper care 00:27:34.650 --> 00:27:38.750 in your agency. Yeah. I was going to say, I think 00:27:38.750 --> 00:27:40.970 it's one of those roads, too, that's going to 00:27:40.970 --> 00:27:42.670 have to – well, first I'm going to back up and 00:27:42.670 --> 00:27:45.690 say again, I want to reiterate, my original story 00:27:45.690 --> 00:27:47.509 was nothing against the Center of Excellence. 00:27:47.690 --> 00:27:49.569 I don't want to get hammered by these people 00:27:49.569 --> 00:27:52.150 because I'm a lover, not a fighter, so I don't 00:27:52.150 --> 00:27:57.240 like – But I just had lunch with a guy today 00:27:57.240 --> 00:27:58.799 who went to the Center of Excellence. Great. 00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:01.220 They do great work. So I want to clear that up 00:28:01.220 --> 00:28:03.299 if that came out like I was attacking them and 00:28:03.299 --> 00:28:09.259 I wasn't. It didn't, Chris. Okay, good. But I 00:28:09.259 --> 00:28:11.579 was saying, you know how long it took to build 00:28:11.579 --> 00:28:14.440 trust between first responders and clinicians? 00:28:14.859 --> 00:28:17.900 You know, there was always that gap that needed 00:28:17.900 --> 00:28:20.869 to be bridged, and it's taken a while. I think 00:28:20.869 --> 00:28:22.750 the same thing with people actually trusting 00:28:22.750 --> 00:28:27.509 their cities or their peer support or however 00:28:27.509 --> 00:28:29.569 you want to, whatever you want to call it. They're 00:28:29.569 --> 00:28:31.849 going to have to earn that trust because it has, 00:28:32.109 --> 00:28:35.190 especially as old as we are back in the day, 00:28:35.289 --> 00:28:39.029 it was always us against them. You know, we were 00:28:39.029 --> 00:28:42.069 like, especially in the fire department, you 00:28:42.069 --> 00:28:46.170 know, we had an old city manager one time that 00:28:46.170 --> 00:28:48.849 said, we don't make him any money. We're a liability, 00:28:49.029 --> 00:28:51.809 not an asset. you know because we don't make 00:28:51.809 --> 00:28:55.009 him any money but so to earn that trust back 00:28:55.009 --> 00:28:59.670 and it's just like um we are so you know i'm 00:28:59.670 --> 00:29:02.509 working out with the the first responder wellness 00:29:02.509 --> 00:29:04.609 division here in oklahoma state as you know danny 00:29:04.609 --> 00:29:07.369 long i think you had him on the show uh started 00:29:07.369 --> 00:29:12.150 and the amount of calls that we get from people 00:29:12.150 --> 00:29:14.529 that are going around there which is fine i mean 00:29:14.529 --> 00:29:18.589 call going around their city, going around their 00:29:18.589 --> 00:29:20.549 peer support because they still just don't have 00:29:20.549 --> 00:29:23.829 that trust. So I think it's going to be that 00:29:23.829 --> 00:29:26.250 road of just how we had to build trust with clinicians, 00:29:26.529 --> 00:29:29.869 which we have now, which is fantastic. I think 00:29:29.869 --> 00:29:32.009 it's going to be the same kind of road learning 00:29:32.009 --> 00:29:35.069 to, but they're going to have to lead by example, 00:29:35.190 --> 00:29:38.440 you know, and do the right thing. I just wanted 00:29:38.440 --> 00:29:41.720 to add into that. So, James, give me a second 00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:45.200 here. Chris brought up one of the magic words 00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:54.160 is liability. And the agency still run with that 00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:57.539 word preceding everything. They worry about liability 00:29:57.539 --> 00:30:03.900 first and wellness, you know. 15th on the, you 00:30:03.900 --> 00:30:07.619 know, pecking order. So, you know, because when 00:30:07.619 --> 00:30:10.980 somebody raises their hand to get help, the first 00:30:10.980 --> 00:30:13.099 thing that pops in their mind is a liability 00:30:13.099 --> 00:30:18.420 issue. You know, what's that going to, is this 00:30:18.420 --> 00:30:20.319 person weak? Is he going to be able to get back 00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:24.519 to work? You know, and in that mind frame, instead 00:30:24.519 --> 00:30:28.400 of how can we help this person, get them healthy 00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:35.160 and see where that goes. I just have, I'm dealing 00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:39.799 with an officer right now in a local agency that 00:30:39.799 --> 00:30:49.059 is going through some hardships. And they've 00:30:49.059 --> 00:30:55.059 got a plethora of documentation, things showing 00:30:55.059 --> 00:31:02.049 that this is a mental health issue. And the agency 00:31:02.049 --> 00:31:06.829 is reluctant to look at any of it. You know, 00:31:06.869 --> 00:31:10.289 because of because this is this the world according 00:31:10.289 --> 00:31:13.130 to Raul has not been said or anything like that, 00:31:13.190 --> 00:31:17.529 but because of liability issues. You know, that's 00:31:17.529 --> 00:31:21.029 what I believe it is. And that word right there, 00:31:21.069 --> 00:31:24.670 I think, is another reason that you have some 00:31:24.670 --> 00:31:28.099 of this. what we believe is betrayal, what's 00:31:28.099 --> 00:31:30.920 perceived to be betrayal, because agencies, I 00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:33.380 believe agency heads, are worried about liability. 00:31:36.819 --> 00:31:40.720 Yeah, liability is an issue. It was an issue 00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:46.480 when I had, as I call it, my situation, the liability. 00:31:46.539 --> 00:31:50.140 I was in charge of a SWAT team, so I had access 00:31:50.140 --> 00:31:54.259 to automatic weapons, explosives, you name it. 00:31:54.859 --> 00:31:57.200 And there was just people in the agency that 00:31:57.200 --> 00:32:00.359 were concerned that a guy that, you know, tried 00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:03.660 to shoot himself was coming back to work and 00:32:03.660 --> 00:32:07.500 carrying a gun around the building. And there 00:32:07.500 --> 00:32:10.500 were employees that worked in the agency I worked 00:32:10.500 --> 00:32:14.160 at that were concerned about that. And liability 00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:17.519 was a thing that was talked about about me for 00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:20.460 quite a while. But by the grace of God, I had 00:32:20.460 --> 00:32:23.759 a police chief who believed in me. And he said 00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:27.259 he's not a liability. He's OK. We went and we 00:32:27.259 --> 00:32:29.940 got him help. And the doctor said he's good to 00:32:29.940 --> 00:32:34.880 go. He's got a fit for duty letter. And he trusted 00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:40.220 me. And not only did I do a good job when I came 00:32:40.220 --> 00:32:42.960 back, I always tell everybody the year after 00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:46.180 I tried to kill myself, I was officer of the 00:32:46.180 --> 00:32:49.019 year. And, you know, I don't know what it's like 00:32:49.019 --> 00:32:52.089 in the fire department, but. In a police department, 00:32:52.349 --> 00:32:55.390 to be officer of the year is a really hard task 00:32:55.390 --> 00:32:59.349 because we had 70 police officers in our agency, 00:32:59.549 --> 00:33:03.190 and at no time ever in my career would I say 00:33:03.190 --> 00:33:06.930 I was the best one. Like, I had 70 incredible 00:33:06.930 --> 00:33:11.549 police officers that I worked with. dispatchers 00:33:11.549 --> 00:33:15.609 that were amazing, detectives, supervisors, but 00:33:15.609 --> 00:33:18.990 it's a pretty hard task. And I owe that all to 00:33:18.990 --> 00:33:21.529 that chief who stuck behind me and got me help. 00:33:21.930 --> 00:33:24.269 And when I came back to work, I was healthy and 00:33:24.269 --> 00:33:29.190 happy. What he did was he did what most chiefs 00:33:29.190 --> 00:33:33.990 don't do. He didn't look at the liability. He 00:33:33.990 --> 00:33:36.869 didn't look at the cost factor. He looked at 00:33:36.869 --> 00:33:40.279 the human factor. And I know this because he 00:33:40.279 --> 00:33:42.660 said it out loud. He's even they even wrote an 00:33:42.660 --> 00:33:45.579 article about him. He said, you know, not only 00:33:45.579 --> 00:33:49.339 was this guy one of my employees, he was also 00:33:49.339 --> 00:33:52.980 my friend over these years. And there's a time 00:33:52.980 --> 00:33:57.400 where you have to put your. Put your maybe your 00:33:57.400 --> 00:33:59.900 work role to the side and bring your humanity 00:33:59.900 --> 00:34:03.599 out and look at somebody and go, hey, how much 00:34:03.599 --> 00:34:10.159 is this person's life worth? And that was one 00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:12.559 of the very first lessons I learned as a police 00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:17.460 officer was I had a knife in my pocket and it 00:34:17.460 --> 00:34:21.480 was just a cheap Ace hardware knife. And before 00:34:21.480 --> 00:34:25.519 I was a cop, I was an ocean lifeguard. And so 00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:28.539 I used to carry this cheap knife in my shorts 00:34:28.539 --> 00:34:31.000 when I, you know, a couple times I had to go 00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:33.519 out and cut people from fishing nets off the 00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:36.539 piers and things like that. So it became like 00:34:36.539 --> 00:34:40.639 a lucky knife. And it was an $8 knife. And I 00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:43.039 brought it into work when I first became a cop. 00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:46.960 And my supervisor, who ultimately became my SWAT 00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:50.500 commander, he pulled the knife out of my pocket 00:34:50.500 --> 00:34:53.039 and he looked at it and he threw it in a garbage 00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:57.059 can. And I go, what'd you do that for? And he 00:34:57.059 --> 00:34:59.360 looked at me and he goes, how much did that knife 00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:03.260 cost? And I said, eight bucks. And he looked 00:35:03.260 --> 00:35:04.880 at me and he says, so you're going to tell me 00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:10.019 your life is worth $8? And I said, no, my life's 00:35:10.019 --> 00:35:12.519 worth way more than that. And he said, the next 00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:14.619 time you buy a piece of equipment that's going 00:35:14.619 --> 00:35:19.119 to help you or save you, don't spare any money. 00:35:19.500 --> 00:35:22.940 buy the absolute best piece of equipment you 00:35:22.940 --> 00:35:26.139 can afford to buy, and that's what your life 00:35:26.139 --> 00:35:29.019 is worth. Your life isn't worth $8. So I say 00:35:29.019 --> 00:35:32.219 all that to say this, how do you put a price 00:35:32.219 --> 00:35:35.659 tag on somebody's head? Not even an employee, 00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:39.179 just somebody. I mean, you think about as firefighters 00:35:39.179 --> 00:35:43.380 and as police officers, when somebody calls 911 00:35:43.380 --> 00:35:45.579 and they're laying in the middle of the street, 00:35:46.380 --> 00:35:49.519 begging for help, whether it's an injury or an 00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:53.880 assault or just a bad day for them, our agencies 00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:58.780 spare no expense on going and helping those people. 00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:02.860 I mean, we got two firefighters and two cops 00:36:02.860 --> 00:36:05.400 right here. Have you ever in your career seen 00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:08.829 us go, oh. We're not going to do this because 00:36:08.829 --> 00:36:11.670 it costs a lot of money. No, we spare no expense. 00:36:12.050 --> 00:36:15.909 But when it comes time to ourselves and our own 00:36:15.909 --> 00:36:23.840 agencies, we compromise. And there's a lot to 00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:26.380 be said behind that. There's a lot of work to 00:36:26.380 --> 00:36:30.480 be done to ratify, or is that the right word 00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:34.199 I'm looking for, to rectify or ratify, to fix 00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:38.719 this situation. I'm still learning how to talk 00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:43.239 again, James. So, you know, to get this fixed, 00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:47.039 like I said, it goes all the way to a state level. 00:36:47.579 --> 00:36:50.679 You know, over the past 10 years, James, like 00:36:50.679 --> 00:36:54.380 I've really transitioned in my role in this industry. 00:36:54.699 --> 00:36:58.059 I have my hands at the state level now. You know, 00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:00.340 I work with the state of Florida on their wellness 00:37:00.340 --> 00:37:04.199 unit. Just like Chris, I do a lot of stuff in 00:37:04.199 --> 00:37:08.059 Raul around the state of Florida. And so I see 00:37:08.059 --> 00:37:10.960 it from the governmental level at the Capitol 00:37:10.960 --> 00:37:16.050 all the way down to the police officer. I'm going 00:37:16.050 --> 00:37:18.889 to give you an example of one of the things that 00:37:18.889 --> 00:37:22.989 is happening that we have to look at. In the 00:37:22.989 --> 00:37:26.949 state of Florida, we do a thing called a post 00:37:26.949 --> 00:37:30.309 -critical incident seminar. Most people know 00:37:30.309 --> 00:37:34.289 it as a PCIS. The three of us, I don't know if 00:37:34.289 --> 00:37:36.170 you've been to one, James, but I know me, Chris, 00:37:36.250 --> 00:37:39.489 and Raul have been to one. And it's a free program. 00:37:40.030 --> 00:37:42.670 that is put on by the state and it's a three 00:37:42.670 --> 00:37:47.090 -day intensive workshop it's probably the most 00:37:47.090 --> 00:37:51.050 healing the most incredible mental health thing 00:37:51.050 --> 00:37:55.349 that i have observed yet i've been involved in 00:37:55.349 --> 00:37:57.809 maybe eight or ten of them now since we started 00:37:57.809 --> 00:38:03.070 doing them and we we allow 35 couples into the 00:38:03.070 --> 00:38:07.630 seminar and i literally get to watch 35 couples 00:38:07.630 --> 00:38:13.590 heal And smile again and go from the first day 00:38:13.590 --> 00:38:16.909 of crying, telling their story to the second 00:38:16.909 --> 00:38:21.429 day laughing with their mates and healing. And 00:38:21.429 --> 00:38:24.730 it's a great thing to be part of. But here's 00:38:24.730 --> 00:38:28.710 the bad side of it. The state of Florida, which 00:38:28.710 --> 00:38:33.130 is governed by an organization called FDLA, Florida 00:38:33.130 --> 00:38:36.590 Department of Law Enforcement, they put these. 00:38:37.070 --> 00:38:40.789 post -critical incident seminars out for anybody 00:38:40.789 --> 00:38:43.530 who wants to come in the first responder world, 00:38:43.690 --> 00:38:48.489 corrections, dispatch, cops, fire. It's pretty 00:38:48.489 --> 00:38:51.489 amazing. And they put that out there. They send 00:38:51.489 --> 00:38:55.909 it to every agency in the state of Florida. Every 00:38:55.909 --> 00:39:00.789 police chief gets, and every agency gets this 00:39:00.789 --> 00:39:03.929 invitation for them to send their employees. 00:39:04.650 --> 00:39:07.809 Well, one of the things we discovered is the 00:39:07.809 --> 00:39:10.630 chief, hypothetically, and I don't know how it 00:39:10.630 --> 00:39:12.730 works in everybody's agency, but the chief gets 00:39:12.730 --> 00:39:16.869 the email and the invitation and the flyer. Then 00:39:16.869 --> 00:39:20.289 it goes from him or the training department to 00:39:20.289 --> 00:39:24.210 the command level. Hey, disseminate this to your 00:39:24.210 --> 00:39:27.489 employees. Well, one of the things that's happening 00:39:27.489 --> 00:39:30.789 is when it gets to that level, it's not getting 00:39:30.789 --> 00:39:33.690 to the employees because the command level is 00:39:33.690 --> 00:39:38.469 gone. Well, if I give this to this shift, what 00:39:38.469 --> 00:39:40.829 do they call it for the fireside? Is it a shift 00:39:40.829 --> 00:39:45.389 or is it a battalion? Or battalion would be, 00:39:45.389 --> 00:39:47.250 you know, the shift is which of the days that 00:39:47.250 --> 00:39:49.210 we work and the battalion would be, you know, 00:39:49.210 --> 00:39:53.389 seven stations of that particular area. OK, so 00:39:53.389 --> 00:39:56.750 that that particular shift, just like us in law 00:39:56.750 --> 00:40:00.469 enforcement. And so if I give this to this shift. 00:40:01.260 --> 00:40:05.219 I know that three officers on this shift or three 00:40:05.219 --> 00:40:08.980 firefighters were traumatically damaged at an 00:40:08.980 --> 00:40:11.500 incident, whether it be in the Pulse nightclub, 00:40:11.579 --> 00:40:14.480 Oklahoma bombing, whatever it is that we've all 00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:18.199 been involved in, or just a shooting. These three 00:40:18.199 --> 00:40:20.639 officers were involved in a shooting. They really 00:40:20.639 --> 00:40:23.880 need this seminar. But if I send them to the 00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:28.179 seminar. I'm going to be three bodies down on 00:40:28.179 --> 00:40:31.559 the shift. And that's going to cost overtime. 00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:34.880 And we don't have the staffing to fill overtime. 00:40:35.260 --> 00:40:41.000 So all that takes place, that command level person 00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:45.199 doesn't put that information out because he don't 00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:48.239 even want to tease the employees with it. because 00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:50.119 they're knowing that they're not going to go. 00:40:50.340 --> 00:40:53.800 And so that right there, just that one incident 00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:56.579 that's taken place, and that's just here in the 00:40:56.579 --> 00:40:59.420 state of Florida. And I'm not bashing anybody. 00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:01.900 That's just the price of doing business and the 00:41:01.900 --> 00:41:05.260 nature of the beast that we're in. But that's 00:41:05.260 --> 00:41:08.519 kind of what's taken place. And the way to fix 00:41:08.519 --> 00:41:12.179 that is at a state level, a funding level, and 00:41:12.179 --> 00:41:14.739 which you could track that all the way down to 00:41:14.739 --> 00:41:18.079 people. that go out and vote for their elected 00:41:18.079 --> 00:41:20.900 officials. That's why it's so important that 00:41:20.900 --> 00:41:23.780 we vet, that we do the right thing, and we take 00:41:23.780 --> 00:41:27.860 the time to vote the proper people in the seat 00:41:27.860 --> 00:41:31.360 and also make sure that when you're going to 00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:33.659 work for an agency, make sure they're a great 00:41:33.659 --> 00:41:36.260 agency. Make sure they have a track record and 00:41:36.260 --> 00:41:38.219 they have all these things. There's a million 00:41:38.219 --> 00:41:40.739 different ways you can look at it, but these 00:41:40.739 --> 00:41:42.880 are some of the things that are happening here 00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:48.119 and what we're involved in. Doug, you talked 00:41:48.119 --> 00:41:51.780 about us being seen as a business, and I've made 00:41:51.780 --> 00:41:54.260 this comment a few times. I think this is where, 00:41:54.300 --> 00:41:56.539 in the far side, I see the greatest organizational 00:41:56.539 --> 00:42:00.619 betrayal. If you actually look at the business 00:42:00.619 --> 00:42:03.480 world, I don't know if you've seen these news 00:42:03.480 --> 00:42:05.820 articles. It happens here in America, but also 00:42:05.820 --> 00:42:09.719 Iceland, the UK have done a trial of this. The 00:42:09.719 --> 00:42:12.119 progressive business world has actually shifted 00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:14.739 to a four -day work week. four, nine hour days 00:42:14.739 --> 00:42:17.559 with a one hour lunch. So they're realizing the 00:42:17.559 --> 00:42:19.780 Googles, the Amazons, et cetera. If you invest 00:42:19.780 --> 00:42:22.019 in your people, Richard Branson from Virgin is 00:42:22.019 --> 00:42:23.900 a perfect example. He's like, if my people are 00:42:23.900 --> 00:42:25.960 happy, the customer will be happy, not the other 00:42:25.960 --> 00:42:29.280 way around. And so then you look at the fire 00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:32.000 and a perfect example, in my opinion, at the 00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:35.099 moment of organizational betrayal is you have 00:42:35.099 --> 00:42:38.320 management administrators who work 40 hours a 00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:41.139 week. who are also responsible for our recruitment 00:42:41.139 --> 00:42:44.119 crisis because they were the leadership, who 00:42:44.119 --> 00:42:47.500 are telling 56 -hour -a -week firefighters, you 00:42:47.500 --> 00:42:51.719 don't deserve to work less than 56. And these 00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:53.659 people go to their families every night at 5. 00:42:53.780 --> 00:42:56.659 The firefighters work 56. And then as we get 00:42:56.659 --> 00:42:58.599 through a deeper recruitment crisis, now you're 00:42:58.599 --> 00:43:01.099 talking about mandatory overtime, 80 -hour weeks, 00:43:01.300 --> 00:43:05.119 et cetera. Now let's take our union, the IAFF. 00:43:05.380 --> 00:43:07.199 I'm not worried about offending anyone, Chris, 00:43:07.280 --> 00:43:10.789 so I'll carry this one. They work in a city that 00:43:10.789 --> 00:43:14.550 works a 42 hour work week, 24 72. There's no 00:43:14.550 --> 00:43:16.929 conversation about them advocating for the rest 00:43:16.929 --> 00:43:18.829 of the country working the work week that they 00:43:18.829 --> 00:43:21.650 are. So this is where I see a huge organizational 00:43:21.650 --> 00:43:24.849 betrayal. You're wearing the gold badge or you're 00:43:24.849 --> 00:43:27.329 getting all the union Jews and you're supposed 00:43:27.329 --> 00:43:30.030 to be fighting for your people. And you're like, 00:43:30.130 --> 00:43:33.489 well, I'm all right. That's it. If you were a 00:43:33.489 --> 00:43:36.530 Google, a virgin, a progressive business leader. 00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:39.800 You would say the most important asset I have 00:43:39.800 --> 00:43:42.400 is not the aerial. It's not the bearcat. It's 00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:44.960 the men and women in the uniform. And I think 00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:47.500 this is where that shift has to has to change. 00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:49.880 If you're in any of these positions and other 00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:52.199 people aren't the most important thing to you, 00:43:52.300 --> 00:43:55.340 then you should not be in that position. Whether 00:43:55.340 --> 00:43:57.480 we're talking in politics or we're talking about 00:43:57.480 --> 00:44:00.940 administrator or unions, your number one job 00:44:00.940 --> 00:44:04.500 is to make sure that your membership, your men 00:44:04.500 --> 00:44:08.280 and women that serve beneath you are physically 00:44:08.280 --> 00:44:11.219 prepared, mentally prepared, and go home when 00:44:11.219 --> 00:44:13.460 they're supposed to go home. And I think this 00:44:13.460 --> 00:44:16.239 is a big part of the conversation when it comes 00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:19.099 to organizational betrayal is just the mistakes 00:44:19.099 --> 00:44:22.530 of our management. The people that collected 00:44:22.530 --> 00:44:24.230 the big checks that had the stripes all down 00:44:24.230 --> 00:44:27.610 their arm are being paid for by the men and women 00:44:27.610 --> 00:44:29.289 who are actually on the streets. And that is 00:44:29.289 --> 00:44:36.289 so unfair. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you, I was just 00:44:36.289 --> 00:44:38.469 out in L .A. a couple of weeks ago, out there 00:44:38.469 --> 00:44:44.010 for a week. And we all have a friend that's an 00:44:44.010 --> 00:44:47.090 L .A. County firefighter. Y 'all know who I'm 00:44:47.090 --> 00:44:53.179 talking about. The mandatory overtime these guys 00:44:53.179 --> 00:44:58.280 are working is absolutely insane. Now, they're 00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:01.960 racking up the bank account. I mean, they get 00:45:01.960 --> 00:45:05.940 paid well for it. But I was shocked at the amount 00:45:05.940 --> 00:45:11.739 of mandatory. There's some guy that when I was 00:45:11.739 --> 00:45:13.880 out there, they were working their sixth or seventh 00:45:13.880 --> 00:45:19.460 shift in a row. And they did mention, though, 00:45:19.480 --> 00:45:21.239 even in, I think it was L .A., they even did 00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:24.079 mention that it's been proposed, talking about 00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:27.159 doing a, whatever that's called, looking into 00:45:27.159 --> 00:45:31.780 it, a study about changing their shift and everything, 00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:35.360 their hours and their going. Because L .A. works 00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:38.760 the exact same as Oklahoma City. Kelly Day, 24 00:45:38.760 --> 00:45:41.260 on, 24 off, three times in all four days in a 00:45:41.260 --> 00:45:45.739 row. And it's 56 hours. But I was shocked. I 00:45:45.739 --> 00:45:49.639 was just, I'm like you. I was, and I never, I 00:45:49.639 --> 00:45:53.139 never looked at it like that as being organizational, 00:45:53.400 --> 00:45:57.460 but that's who's it's mandatory. I mean, so it 00:45:57.460 --> 00:45:59.059 is, it's exactly what they're doing. They're, 00:45:59.059 --> 00:46:01.500 they're saying, this is what we got to do, or 00:46:01.500 --> 00:46:03.699 this is what you have to do, or we'll find somebody 00:46:03.699 --> 00:46:06.760 else to do it. You know, basically the amount 00:46:06.760 --> 00:46:09.519 of overtime they're working is, is it's, it's 00:46:09.519 --> 00:46:12.539 not sustainable. There's no way. I think we get, 00:46:12.579 --> 00:46:15.099 I think we get caught. Well, I think leadership 00:46:15.099 --> 00:46:18.510 gets caught into the, uh, uh, Well, we're doing 00:46:18.510 --> 00:46:19.730 it that way because that's the way we've always 00:46:19.730 --> 00:46:26.190 done it. You know, and we've been doing it that 00:46:26.190 --> 00:46:30.349 way for the last 30 years. I survived. I mean, 00:46:30.389 --> 00:46:32.489 isn't that what we hear a lot, James? I mean, 00:46:32.530 --> 00:46:35.510 that's, you know, I survived, so you ought to 00:46:35.510 --> 00:46:37.489 be able to survive too. And I keep saying, but 00:46:37.489 --> 00:46:42.329 guys, like, in every career, in every generation 00:46:42.329 --> 00:46:45.090 before us, there were things that happened that 00:46:45.090 --> 00:46:49.150 helped evolve. the profession to where we are 00:46:49.150 --> 00:46:53.090 now, whether it be technology, studies, whatever 00:46:53.090 --> 00:46:56.989 the case, whatever it is. So I always like, what 00:46:56.989 --> 00:47:00.130 are we talking about? Why are we not always looking 00:47:00.130 --> 00:47:05.010 to make it better? I don't understand the mentality 00:47:05.010 --> 00:47:07.429 of, well, that's the way we've always done it. 00:47:07.489 --> 00:47:10.250 It's always worked. So it can't be fixed. Like, 00:47:10.269 --> 00:47:12.769 what are you talking about? Can you imagine, 00:47:12.909 --> 00:47:15.269 Raul, if you had to make entry to the Pulse nightclub 00:47:15.269 --> 00:47:19.269 with a musket and you had to reload it every 00:47:19.269 --> 00:47:22.010 time? That's the way we always did it. Right, 00:47:22.269 --> 00:47:25.269 right. It's exactly my point. I mean, it just 00:47:25.269 --> 00:47:30.150 makes no sense because in every, and correct 00:47:30.150 --> 00:47:35.380 me if I'm wrong, in every generation. Every administration, 00:47:35.639 --> 00:47:38.760 leadership, there's always something new. There's 00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:42.079 always a change. It should always be something. 00:47:43.059 --> 00:47:45.739 You know, because every time I go to conferences 00:47:45.739 --> 00:47:49.940 around the country, when I went to the firefighter 00:47:49.940 --> 00:47:53.039 conference, the big one up in Indianapolis, I 00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:57.119 think. Yeah, Indianapolis. Man, that thing was 00:47:57.119 --> 00:48:01.989 huge. They had truly. You know, you were out 00:48:01.989 --> 00:48:03.829 there looking for the better mousetrap. I mean, 00:48:03.849 --> 00:48:06.969 there was everything out there. You know, so 00:48:06.969 --> 00:48:10.570 we should always be looking to make it better. 00:48:11.769 --> 00:48:14.110 Why are we fighting that? I don't get it. I don't 00:48:14.110 --> 00:48:17.369 get it. Well, and firefighters, and I guess we're 00:48:17.369 --> 00:48:18.969 like cops. I don't know if cops are the same. 00:48:19.730 --> 00:48:21.949 Firefighters hate two things, the way things 00:48:21.949 --> 00:48:25.489 are and change. So, you know, they're beating 00:48:25.489 --> 00:48:27.570 themselves up. But like you said, they're... 00:48:28.909 --> 00:48:32.210 they always want the newest best brightest toy 00:48:32.210 --> 00:48:35.690 you know or tool to play with so they're ready 00:48:35.690 --> 00:48:38.429 for that to change you know if we had this we 00:48:38.429 --> 00:48:41.409 could do better we had that well but there's 00:48:41.409 --> 00:48:45.949 so much there's so much tradition in and i can't 00:48:45.949 --> 00:48:48.150 speak for the cops but there's so much tradition 00:48:48.150 --> 00:48:52.869 in the fire service that if they feel like if 00:48:52.869 --> 00:48:54.849 they change something like you say the you know 00:48:54.849 --> 00:48:58.139 the work hours that you know Like Oklahoma City, 00:48:58.280 --> 00:49:00.860 they've had that same. They went to a third platoon 00:49:00.860 --> 00:49:05.380 in 1965. That's when they started that for that, 00:49:05.380 --> 00:49:07.099 you know, that cycle. So they've been doing it 00:49:07.099 --> 00:49:11.920 since 1965. And that's just I don't think they 00:49:11.920 --> 00:49:15.739 think there's another way to do it. Those guys 00:49:15.739 --> 00:49:17.519 out in L .A. I was talking to because I was even 00:49:17.519 --> 00:49:19.840 saying I was saying, I don't know how Oklahoma 00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:21.820 City guys and girls would go for that. If they 00:49:21.820 --> 00:49:24.239 would if they jump on board because they only 00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:27.559 know what we do now. And those guys and girls 00:49:27.559 --> 00:49:30.239 out there were like, oh, we would love it. We 00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:35.179 would love to go 24 -72 or whatever it is. But 00:49:35.179 --> 00:49:38.579 like you say, I'm like you, Raul. I don't know 00:49:38.579 --> 00:49:41.280 why we – now, when I was on the job and young 00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:43.840 and stupid, I was the same way. Don't mess with 00:49:43.840 --> 00:49:46.239 my job. Don't mess with my tradition. This is 00:49:46.239 --> 00:49:51.159 how we do it. But as I've gotten older and mellowed, 00:49:51.159 --> 00:49:55.420 and, yeah, I don't know why we fight. fight things 00:49:55.420 --> 00:49:57.619 that are going to only make us better as firefighters 00:49:57.619 --> 00:50:00.099 and as people and as husbands, as fathers, as 00:50:00.099 --> 00:50:02.960 wives. It's going to make us better in every 00:50:02.960 --> 00:50:05.519 aspect, and we want to fight it to the core. 00:50:06.110 --> 00:50:08.550 And we got to make it clear, we're not talking 00:50:08.550 --> 00:50:11.489 about half -cocked ideas, right? We're not talking 00:50:11.489 --> 00:50:13.789 about, well, you know, yeah, I heard this guy 00:50:13.789 --> 00:50:21.869 Chris said, if we do 27 hours and 79 off, that's 00:50:21.869 --> 00:50:24.230 the way to go. He just, he woke up one night 00:50:24.230 --> 00:50:26.630 and said that. And that's the way we, no, this 00:50:26.630 --> 00:50:30.570 is backed by, and James, I don't mean to, you 00:50:30.570 --> 00:50:32.710 know, tell me, this is backed. This isn't just 00:50:32.710 --> 00:50:40.619 a fad. There's evidence. stuff. Anyway, I'm sorry. 00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:45.239 I can get on the soapbox there. You're absolutely 00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:48.300 right. It is evidence -based. It has been for 00:50:48.300 --> 00:50:51.019 years. James, we actually, our agency, we were 00:50:51.019 --> 00:50:55.039 on 410s. We had gone through all the shifts and 00:50:55.039 --> 00:50:58.880 we spent most of my career on the 410s. I'll 00:50:58.880 --> 00:51:01.900 tell you, one thing my agency did right is they 00:51:01.900 --> 00:51:06.230 got the shift down so that every Everybody in 00:51:06.230 --> 00:51:10.469 the agency had three days off, which at four 00:51:10.469 --> 00:51:12.849 tens isn't a backbreaker, because if you work 00:51:12.849 --> 00:51:16.110 eight, you generally work tens anyway, the time 00:51:16.110 --> 00:51:19.829 you get settled in and settled out. And everybody 00:51:19.829 --> 00:51:22.690 had a weekend day off. You either had a Saturday 00:51:22.690 --> 00:51:26.429 off, you either had Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, 00:51:26.690 --> 00:51:29.710 or you had Saturday, Sunday, and Monday off. 00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:34.260 And so, you know, the young guy got just as much 00:51:34.260 --> 00:51:38.199 quality time as the old guy did, and it worked 00:51:38.199 --> 00:51:42.019 well for us. But the guys who, the old timers, 00:51:42.059 --> 00:51:45.559 and I've had this conversation with several, 00:51:45.860 --> 00:51:49.199 I'll use her old timer, I'm an old timer, but 00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:52.679 guys that have been around longer than me. When 00:51:52.679 --> 00:51:55.719 I first came back to work after my suicide attempt, 00:51:56.079 --> 00:52:00.010 I had older guys ask me questions. And I'll never 00:52:00.010 --> 00:52:02.670 forget this one guy, and I love him to this day, 00:52:02.769 --> 00:52:05.769 but he looked at me and he was kind of mad at 00:52:05.769 --> 00:52:11.090 me. And he said he didn't understand me because 00:52:11.090 --> 00:52:14.130 he's like, I've looked at you all these years 00:52:14.130 --> 00:52:17.750 and all you do is train and exercise, right, 00:52:17.889 --> 00:52:21.329 in my athletic world. And he said, you take such 00:52:21.329 --> 00:52:23.789 good care of yourself and I don't see how you 00:52:23.789 --> 00:52:26.929 could have a problem. And, you know, it just 00:52:26.929 --> 00:52:29.289 looks to me that you're looking for the easy 00:52:29.289 --> 00:52:33.369 way out type conversation. And he said, I've 00:52:33.369 --> 00:52:36.909 been doing this job longer than you. And I've 00:52:36.909 --> 00:52:39.309 done all the things you've done and I've been 00:52:39.309 --> 00:52:41.949 through all the things you've been and I'm fine. 00:52:42.789 --> 00:52:45.329 And I looked over at him and I said, you're fine. 00:52:46.030 --> 00:52:49.750 I said, your cheeks are as red as a brake light. 00:52:50.190 --> 00:52:53.849 You've taken 10 deep breaths in one sentence. 00:52:54.150 --> 00:52:57.570 Your belly sticks so far past your belt buckle. 00:52:57.690 --> 00:53:01.210 You haven't seen your boy part in 20 years. You 00:53:01.210 --> 00:53:03.409 don't even know what it looks like. Your high 00:53:03.409 --> 00:53:06.349 blood pressure is through the roofs. I tore this 00:53:06.349 --> 00:53:10.250 dude a new ass is what I did. And I said, so 00:53:10.250 --> 00:53:13.269 you're not okay. You just chose a different route. 00:53:13.489 --> 00:53:17.760 You choose your. your mental breakdown can look 00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:22.659 like overeating, diabetes, over drinking, not 00:53:22.659 --> 00:53:25.920 sleeping, things of that nature. Everybody has 00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:29.579 a different path of it. So a lot of these old 00:53:29.579 --> 00:53:31.880 timers that think they're okay, they're really 00:53:31.880 --> 00:53:35.750 not okay. They just think they are. And they're 00:53:35.750 --> 00:53:38.750 just as scared of the change as the new guys. 00:53:38.829 --> 00:53:41.769 And you're right, Chris. Cops don't like change 00:53:41.769 --> 00:53:44.469 either. The only thing that is different between 00:53:44.469 --> 00:53:49.090 cops and firefighters is we don't like fire. 00:53:49.230 --> 00:53:52.389 So fuck that. We decided to go pick up guns. 00:53:52.710 --> 00:53:55.050 That's the only difference. Y 'all like fire. 00:53:55.130 --> 00:53:58.269 We don't like fire. But other than that, we're 00:53:58.269 --> 00:54:01.369 just alike. I'm not a fan of lead poisoning, 00:54:01.429 --> 00:54:06.260 so you can keep your jug too. Thank you. Exactly. 00:54:07.980 --> 00:54:10.460 It's funny, though, with the way we've always 00:54:10.460 --> 00:54:12.480 done it. I've done a presentation a couple of 00:54:12.480 --> 00:54:15.579 times on the 2472 only when people have asked 00:54:15.579 --> 00:54:17.760 me. And I know it's a kind of force multiplier 00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:20.820 audience because I don't talk normally. It's 00:54:20.820 --> 00:54:23.980 what's called behind the shield. But there's 00:54:23.980 --> 00:54:26.599 a couple of slides. One of them are children 00:54:26.599 --> 00:54:28.739 in the Victorian ages when we had them working 00:54:28.739 --> 00:54:31.000 in factories and cleaning chimneys as young as 00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:33.590 eight years old. That's the way we used to do 00:54:33.590 --> 00:54:37.030 it. So someone went, that looks awful. We should 00:54:37.030 --> 00:54:39.090 probably not send our children because they keep 00:54:39.090 --> 00:54:42.110 dying from all these cancers. Another one is 00:54:42.110 --> 00:54:45.969 a surgical residency. When they were doing crazy, 00:54:46.130 --> 00:54:50.309 crazy hours in the medical school track, there 00:54:50.309 --> 00:54:54.269 was a physician, I think it was Dr. Edward Halsett, 00:54:54.329 --> 00:54:57.010 if I've got that right. And he was kind of one 00:54:57.010 --> 00:54:59.590 of the people that really... created this residency 00:54:59.590 --> 00:55:01.809 where he would be up for hours and hours and 00:55:01.809 --> 00:55:03.309 hours. And, you know, is that everyone listening? 00:55:03.409 --> 00:55:04.929 If that's what your professor is doing, your 00:55:04.929 --> 00:55:07.309 teacher, your coach, your lieutenant, that's 00:55:07.309 --> 00:55:10.050 what you're going to do. So that stayed. And 00:55:10.050 --> 00:55:12.230 then years and years later, they kind of look 00:55:12.230 --> 00:55:15.389 back and went, oh, this guy was addicted to cocaine 00:55:15.389 --> 00:55:17.510 and heroin. Now, I'm pretty sure I could do a 00:55:17.510 --> 00:55:20.869 two day bender on those. So just because that 00:55:20.869 --> 00:55:22.969 was the way it was done doesn't mean it's the 00:55:22.969 --> 00:55:25.420 right way, whether it's, you know. Children in 00:55:25.420 --> 00:55:27.860 a Victorian factory, whether it's a coked up 00:55:27.860 --> 00:55:30.920 surgeon, just because that's how you did it in 00:55:30.920 --> 00:55:32.840 the past. And I tell my people, you know, Chris 00:55:32.840 --> 00:55:35.179 has got the helmets behind him. People will call 00:55:35.179 --> 00:55:38.480 that tradition. No, that's a hat. Tradition is 00:55:38.480 --> 00:55:41.360 camaraderie. It's courage. It's, you know, it's 00:55:41.360 --> 00:55:44.340 teamwork. It's selfless service. That's tradition. 00:55:44.719 --> 00:55:47.280 And so the innovation in what we're wearing, 00:55:47.340 --> 00:55:49.639 innovation in the tools and the innovation in 00:55:49.639 --> 00:55:52.650 the human performance. That's not tradition. 00:55:52.869 --> 00:55:55.429 Tradition is forging the best police officer 00:55:55.429 --> 00:55:58.010 or firefighter. And that involves innovation. 00:55:58.690 --> 00:56:02.170 You do not let go of tradition by forging a path 00:56:02.170 --> 00:56:05.349 to be a better first responder. That's right. 00:56:05.869 --> 00:56:08.650 That's very well said. Very well said. Yeah, 00:56:08.650 --> 00:56:10.630 like you said, James, especially in the fire 00:56:10.630 --> 00:56:12.869 world. Remember, everybody wanted to have the 00:56:12.869 --> 00:56:18.050 melted shield or the, you know, your gear so 00:56:18.050 --> 00:56:20.980 black and dirty that, you know. you couldn't 00:56:20.980 --> 00:56:25.000 tell what fire what city you worked for but what 00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:28.099 do we do now now you have two or three sets of 00:56:28.099 --> 00:56:32.420 gear you uh you know you immediately get deconned 00:56:32.420 --> 00:56:35.360 after every you know fire alarm we leave our 00:56:35.360 --> 00:56:38.300 self -contains on through salvage and overhaul 00:56:38.300 --> 00:56:42.599 now which is it it didn't change anybody's uh 00:56:42.599 --> 00:56:45.099 didn't change for didn't change anybody's bravery 00:56:45.099 --> 00:56:47.559 didn't change anybody what they're willing to 00:56:47.559 --> 00:56:53.719 do It's just a safer, better way to do the job. 00:56:53.920 --> 00:56:57.039 And like you said, that's why I'm doing, that's 00:56:57.039 --> 00:56:59.360 why we all do what we do. I want every first 00:56:59.360 --> 00:57:02.000 responder, cop, firefighter, dispatcher, man, 00:57:02.039 --> 00:57:05.539 I want them to do their 25, their 30, whatever 00:57:05.539 --> 00:57:09.340 they want to do and get to retirement. I've got 00:57:09.340 --> 00:57:13.639 too many, we all know too many that didn't get 00:57:13.639 --> 00:57:16.139 to retirement or didn't get many years of it. 00:57:16.679 --> 00:57:18.219 The one, you know, like I say, the one that's 00:57:18.219 --> 00:57:20.860 always hit on me, I actually made a guy I used 00:57:20.860 --> 00:57:23.800 to work with actually made his suicide after 00:57:23.800 --> 00:57:27.099 he retired on a call. And that has always stuck 00:57:27.099 --> 00:57:29.780 with me. And I thought, I don't want anybody 00:57:29.780 --> 00:57:33.599 else to have to experience, you know, that, to 00:57:33.599 --> 00:57:35.559 see a brother that didn't get to get, you know. 00:57:35.659 --> 00:57:38.099 Like I said, I enjoy sticking it to the, every 00:57:38.099 --> 00:57:40.539 month they have to cut me that pension check. 00:57:41.079 --> 00:57:43.519 I know they're like, man, he made another one. 00:57:43.849 --> 00:57:47.590 So that's what I want everybody to do, keep drawing 00:57:47.590 --> 00:57:51.050 them checks as long as they can. Well, just to 00:57:51.050 --> 00:57:54.730 jump in again, Doug made the comment about the 00:57:54.730 --> 00:57:57.989 figures not really showing the whole picture. 00:57:58.030 --> 00:57:59.710 And this is something that I've talked about. 00:57:59.829 --> 00:58:02.489 And again, in this presentation, one of the slides 00:58:02.489 --> 00:58:06.000 was supposedly, I think it was suicides. the 00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:10.179 american fire service in 2024 had it was like 00:58:10.179 --> 00:58:14.179 73 77 something like that now i can tell you 00:58:14.179 --> 00:58:16.519 in the state of florida alone that we've had 00:58:16.519 --> 00:58:19.360 close to that you know i mean locally we've had 00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:22.199 you know count several on one hand. That's just 00:58:22.199 --> 00:58:25.739 in this county and the surrounding area. But 00:58:25.739 --> 00:58:27.960 I asked the audience, I'm like, yeah, so that's 00:58:27.960 --> 00:58:31.039 obviously underrepresented as far as them not 00:58:31.039 --> 00:58:33.920 being reported. Let's not forget about the alcohol 00:58:33.920 --> 00:58:36.260 and drug -related deaths. That's the same exact 00:58:36.260 --> 00:58:38.940 issue, the mental health crisis. I said, but 00:58:38.940 --> 00:58:41.440 what's the largest part of this puzzle that we're 00:58:41.440 --> 00:58:45.619 missing? Our retirees. The military doesn't discount 00:58:45.619 --> 00:58:48.119 any death after you've stopped wearing the uniform. 00:58:48.239 --> 00:58:50.789 They have a thing called the VA. that keeps counting 00:58:50.789 --> 00:58:53.550 as these veterans progress through the years 00:58:53.550 --> 00:58:56.090 and most of these diseases and mental health 00:58:56.090 --> 00:58:58.789 crises are going to really manifest in your 50s 00:58:58.789 --> 00:59:02.329 60s that's when we you know we see most of them 00:59:02.329 --> 00:59:05.809 so for example if i did anything i took my own 00:59:05.809 --> 00:59:07.969 life i dropped dead of an aneurysm i got cancer 00:59:07.969 --> 00:59:10.869 i cease to be a statistic in any fire anything 00:59:10.869 --> 00:59:14.710 so this is the other thing is that we're we're 00:59:14.710 --> 00:59:17.389 acting like we only have a small amount in police 00:59:17.389 --> 00:59:20.880 and fire But actually, if you look at the retirees, 00:59:20.900 --> 00:59:23.760 I would argue genuinely that the statistics that 00:59:23.760 --> 00:59:27.460 were given are, you know, 10%, if even that, 00:59:27.559 --> 00:59:31.139 of all the retirees that we lose so many years 00:59:31.139 --> 00:59:33.559 prematurely. And that's not being factored into 00:59:33.559 --> 00:59:39.400 the magnitude of this crisis. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 00:59:39.420 --> 00:59:42.440 we were talking about some of that today, Doug, 00:59:42.599 --> 00:59:47.889 when you were at the class today. uh fdle's trying 00:59:47.889 --> 00:59:53.150 to trying to uh what's the word i'm looking for 00:59:53.150 --> 00:59:55.469 they're trying to correct some of that reporting 00:59:55.469 --> 01:00:00.429 uh in reference to you know police suicide around 01:00:00.429 --> 01:00:03.150 the state uh because i think in the last few 01:00:03.150 --> 01:00:06.809 years it's been uh you know single digits is 01:00:06.809 --> 01:00:09.150 what's been reported well they went back and 01:00:09.150 --> 01:00:13.610 started looking and come to find out that it's 01:00:14.320 --> 01:00:18.519 More like in the 40s every year. And that's not 01:00:18.519 --> 01:00:21.320 counting retirees. And then that's not counting 01:00:21.320 --> 01:00:26.860 the suspicious accidents. Right. So and still 01:00:26.860 --> 01:00:29.679 there is still under there's still agencies that 01:00:29.679 --> 01:00:33.280 haven't reported anything. You know, so they're 01:00:33.280 --> 01:00:36.519 just not reporting those those those incidents. 01:00:36.639 --> 01:00:41.920 So, yeah, I think the number is grossly. When 01:00:41.920 --> 01:00:46.380 you start adding in the retirees and I don't. 01:00:47.420 --> 01:00:49.940 I still don't know if there's a mechanism to 01:00:49.940 --> 01:00:55.039 do that yet. Am I wrong? No, you're not wrong. 01:00:55.280 --> 01:00:58.340 And, you know, I know the numbers are important 01:00:58.340 --> 01:01:01.659 to people and you're right about the numbers. 01:01:01.739 --> 01:01:05.139 I want to say it was four were reported for the 01:01:05.139 --> 01:01:08.300 state of Florida last year. And Florida is a 01:01:08.300 --> 01:01:11.429 big ass state, as we all know. Really big state. 01:01:11.889 --> 01:01:14.789 And, you know, for years there was organizations, 01:01:14.829 --> 01:01:17.989 maybe one or two of them that that provided all 01:01:17.989 --> 01:01:21.489 the data nationally to the organizations. And 01:01:21.489 --> 01:01:24.469 they were only reporting the data that was reported 01:01:24.469 --> 01:01:28.329 to them. And so they came and they did their 01:01:28.329 --> 01:01:31.309 announcement. Excuse me. And they said Florida 01:01:31.309 --> 01:01:35.789 had four suicides. Well, the deputy commissioner 01:01:35.789 --> 01:01:39.030 of Florida heard that. And he's like. That's 01:01:39.030 --> 01:01:41.789 not true because I know of more than four that 01:01:41.789 --> 01:01:44.050 we've had this year. So he went and did this 01:01:44.050 --> 01:01:48.210 in -depth study and found out that it was 44. 01:01:48.889 --> 01:01:52.690 And he went to the state and said, this is unacceptable. 01:01:53.610 --> 01:01:57.570 But him and I had this conversation. I was part 01:01:57.570 --> 01:02:00.550 of that conversation up at the Capitol. And one 01:02:00.550 --> 01:02:04.030 of the things that I told him was, how about 01:02:04.030 --> 01:02:11.340 just one? Just one. Suicide, whether it's a firefighter, 01:02:11.340 --> 01:02:16.139 cop, dispatcher, corrections officer, whatever 01:02:16.139 --> 01:02:19.300 it might be in the first responder world to even 01:02:19.300 --> 01:02:23.739 include, you know, a lot of the flight medics 01:02:23.739 --> 01:02:26.460 and the nurses that fly out to scene, right? 01:02:26.940 --> 01:02:30.440 Any one of those people, one of them is enough. 01:02:30.920 --> 01:02:34.400 One should be enough. We should not be losing. 01:02:35.820 --> 01:02:38.340 You know, everybody goes, oh, well, you know, 01:02:38.380 --> 01:02:42.960 they emphasize a lot on police officers who lost 01:02:42.960 --> 01:02:45.860 their lives and firefighters who've lost their 01:02:45.860 --> 01:02:48.960 lives in the line of duty. God bless them. I 01:02:48.960 --> 01:02:53.519 agree with it. But what are we doing about the 01:02:53.519 --> 01:02:57.460 officer or firefighter that's taking, as radical 01:02:57.460 --> 01:03:03.449 as it is, taking their own life? to a traumatic 01:03:03.449 --> 01:03:06.670 event that's happened in the course of their 01:03:06.670 --> 01:03:12.670 career, why do we not look at that the same? 01:03:13.710 --> 01:03:18.469 And why do we not put as much care, as much funding, 01:03:18.730 --> 01:03:23.869 as much effort into that as we do the officers? 01:03:24.469 --> 01:03:29.809 I mean, where I live at, they just had a burial. 01:03:31.119 --> 01:03:36.599 They had a parade, a burial of a police dog, 01:03:36.760 --> 01:03:41.340 a police dog. I love police dogs. I've had them 01:03:41.340 --> 01:03:44.340 my whole career. But they also had an officer 01:03:44.340 --> 01:03:49.980 that killed himself. And nobody, nobody from 01:03:49.980 --> 01:03:52.800 that department did anything for that officer 01:03:52.800 --> 01:03:56.739 who killed himself. But they had a parade and 01:03:56.739 --> 01:04:00.840 a funeral for a dog that just died of natural 01:04:00.840 --> 01:04:05.260 causes, not being shot in the line of duty. And 01:04:05.260 --> 01:04:07.960 so what do you think that agency looks at? Oh, 01:04:08.059 --> 01:04:12.159 I am no better than a dog in the street. I'm 01:04:12.159 --> 01:04:17.199 not even worth that. And that's a problem that 01:04:17.199 --> 01:04:21.170 we have. in its own is the way we look at it. 01:04:21.210 --> 01:04:24.769 And maybe you would call that the stigma. I don't 01:04:24.769 --> 01:04:27.449 really like that word. I just think of it as 01:04:27.449 --> 01:04:31.750 that's just poor taste in leadership and poor 01:04:31.750 --> 01:04:34.869 taste in the way we look at the things we do. 01:04:34.969 --> 01:04:38.929 And we just have to do a better job of, you know, 01:04:38.929 --> 01:04:41.630 brings me back to we put our lives on the line 01:04:41.630 --> 01:04:45.449 every day for people we don't know. We don't 01:04:45.449 --> 01:04:47.900 even know. They don't even like us. especially 01:04:47.900 --> 01:04:50.960 as cops shit everybody loves a firefighter but 01:04:50.960 --> 01:04:53.639 everybody hates the police and we put our lives 01:04:53.639 --> 01:04:55.860 on the line for those people but for the people 01:04:55.860 --> 01:04:59.219 that we love and we work with we're not giving 01:04:59.219 --> 01:05:01.619 them the same amount of care and that narrative 01:05:01.619 --> 01:05:06.059 has to change well with that i want to throw 01:05:06.059 --> 01:05:09.019 something at you before we go to um what you 01:05:09.019 --> 01:05:11.340 refer to as the mental health booms i think that's 01:05:11.340 --> 01:05:12.840 fascinating that's something we need to unpack 01:05:12.840 --> 01:05:17.030 as well i talk a lot about The issues with first 01:05:17.030 --> 01:05:19.110 responders, sorry, with firefighter recruitment, 01:05:19.230 --> 01:05:21.690 and obviously one of the biggest fixes, and we're 01:05:21.690 --> 01:05:24.289 seeing this, the proof is in the pudding in Florida 01:05:24.289 --> 01:05:26.969 now. You change the work week, you show these 01:05:26.969 --> 01:05:29.320 people that you care. all of a sudden people 01:05:29.320 --> 01:05:31.440 are lining up around the building to work for 01:05:31.440 --> 01:05:33.300 you. And it's not the only thing. Then you put 01:05:33.300 --> 01:05:36.400 in fitness standards and, you know, zero, you 01:05:36.400 --> 01:05:38.659 know, costs to access mental health. And, you 01:05:38.659 --> 01:05:40.059 know, now all of a sudden you're building this 01:05:40.059 --> 01:05:42.000 positive culture. You're choosing the top 10 01:05:42.000 --> 01:05:44.599 % of a list. You know, it's a self -licking ice 01:05:44.599 --> 01:05:47.219 cream by that point. Law enforcement, though, 01:05:47.360 --> 01:05:49.340 you know, there isn't, I mean, with the recruitment 01:05:49.340 --> 01:05:51.420 crisis and the overtime, absolutely. But with 01:05:51.420 --> 01:05:54.639 the work week, you know, it's not that same obvious. 01:05:55.340 --> 01:05:57.579 biggest glaring issue that we need to fix first, 01:05:57.739 --> 01:06:01.000 but it's obviously more organizational portrayal. 01:06:01.019 --> 01:06:02.840 And that could even be organizationally nationally 01:06:02.840 --> 01:06:05.559 through the media and the way that, you know, 01:06:05.559 --> 01:06:09.119 the men and women in blue are portrayed. So I'm 01:06:09.119 --> 01:06:13.179 much more naive to this, especially Raul and 01:06:13.179 --> 01:06:15.900 Doug, talk to me about law enforcement. What 01:06:15.900 --> 01:06:19.000 have we got to do to turn things around? So young 01:06:19.000 --> 01:06:22.639 men and women line up excited to put on the uniform 01:06:22.639 --> 01:06:24.559 like they did when you guys entered the profession. 01:06:28.170 --> 01:06:34.730 Man, loaded question. I've got one answer right 01:06:34.730 --> 01:06:39.869 away, Raul, while you figure yours out. One of 01:06:39.869 --> 01:06:44.909 them is we have to get rid of that anti -cop 01:06:44.909 --> 01:06:49.130 rhetoric. We cannot allow that in our country 01:06:49.130 --> 01:06:53.400 anymore. And unfortunately, that era that we 01:06:53.400 --> 01:06:56.800 went through, you know, the George Floyd era 01:06:56.800 --> 01:07:00.760 and a few other eras, it painted this horrible 01:07:00.760 --> 01:07:05.900 picture of a cop. And one of the examples I like 01:07:05.900 --> 01:07:08.719 to use, Chris, who's not on the show. Chris tells 01:07:08.719 --> 01:07:12.519 people, he says, listen, if you hire a plumber 01:07:12.519 --> 01:07:15.179 and he comes to your house and he does a crappy 01:07:15.179 --> 01:07:18.409 job. Does that mean all the other plumbers in 01:07:18.409 --> 01:07:20.449 the world suck and you're never going to hire 01:07:20.449 --> 01:07:23.889 another one? It's no different as being a police 01:07:23.889 --> 01:07:27.090 officer. Just because one police officer makes 01:07:27.090 --> 01:07:29.730 a mistake doesn't mean the whole world has to 01:07:29.730 --> 01:07:33.010 turn on every one of them. And when we saw that 01:07:33.010 --> 01:07:38.550 take place, why would you want to take a job 01:07:38.550 --> 01:07:42.530 where you're going to go do your job and be spit 01:07:42.530 --> 01:07:47.050 on? potentially hurt and damaged and shot at 01:07:47.050 --> 01:07:51.429 and not be trusted and all these things, if we 01:07:51.429 --> 01:07:54.469 don't fix that, we're not going to have police. 01:07:54.650 --> 01:08:00.210 We are so nationally short in police officers. 01:08:01.230 --> 01:08:04.889 I was just in Hawaii a couple weeks ago speaking 01:08:04.889 --> 01:08:09.349 in Maui to the firefighters and cops that were 01:08:09.349 --> 01:08:13.230 involved in the Maui fires. And there are 480 01:08:13.230 --> 01:08:18.489 police officers down and three police chiefs. 01:08:18.670 --> 01:08:23.619 And it just blows my mind away. What you would 01:08:23.619 --> 01:08:26.279 think that everybody be lining up to be a cop 01:08:26.279 --> 01:08:29.720 in the in the great state of Hawaii. But, you 01:08:29.720 --> 01:08:32.220 know, obviously there's cause factors, but not 01:08:32.220 --> 01:08:35.079 that's the same thing that we have across the 01:08:35.079 --> 01:08:37.659 nation. Just nobody wants to be a cop anymore. 01:08:37.779 --> 01:08:41.260 And we're we're putting ourselves in a very dangerous 01:08:41.260 --> 01:08:46.260 position where crime will will go rampant and 01:08:46.260 --> 01:08:50.939 things of that nature. So we have to. um obviously 01:08:50.939 --> 01:08:58.020 get backing from the top and and end this type 01:08:58.020 --> 01:09:02.300 of uh i use the word anti -cop rhetoric um and 01:09:02.300 --> 01:09:04.960 i'm smelling that from a famous sheriff i saw 01:09:04.960 --> 01:09:07.420 on tv he said that i don't even really know what 01:09:07.420 --> 01:09:11.399 that means but it sounded good um but we do have 01:09:11.399 --> 01:09:13.779 to get rid of that i'm just joking but we we 01:09:13.779 --> 01:09:16.779 do have to get rid of that and we have to paint 01:09:16.779 --> 01:09:22.069 a better picture And we have to fund. We have 01:09:22.069 --> 01:09:27.569 to fund these agencies. It baffles me. This country 01:09:27.569 --> 01:09:30.829 will send billions of dollars to other countries 01:09:30.829 --> 01:09:33.770 that we've never even been to or we don't even 01:09:33.770 --> 01:09:37.649 know. But we don't take care of our own the way 01:09:37.649 --> 01:09:42.369 we should. And that's just my take on it. We 01:09:42.369 --> 01:09:45.270 just have to do a better job of taking care of 01:09:45.270 --> 01:09:52.729 the people who take care of us. Yeah, I think 01:09:52.729 --> 01:09:55.289 one of the answers is going to, of course, people 01:09:55.289 --> 01:10:00.090 are looking for jobs and police make an okay 01:10:00.090 --> 01:10:02.189 living, you know, depending on where you're going. 01:10:02.289 --> 01:10:05.050 So you're going to have people coming up. But 01:10:05.050 --> 01:10:08.050 in reference to shortages, that's across the 01:10:08.050 --> 01:10:11.649 board. I mean, and we just also, he forgot, I 01:10:11.649 --> 01:10:14.409 remind him, but we just came back from Los Angeles 01:10:14.409 --> 01:10:18.170 probably like a month and a half ago or so. they're 01:10:18.170 --> 01:10:21.609 like 3 ,000 short. That's insane. They're supposed 01:10:21.609 --> 01:10:24.590 to be for like 13 ,000 and they're like at nine. 01:10:25.689 --> 01:10:29.689 So, you know, and that's the same for Chicago 01:10:29.689 --> 01:10:34.289 and for LAPD. So that's around the country for 01:10:34.289 --> 01:10:38.109 the most part. I think funding is a big deal. 01:10:40.270 --> 01:10:42.130 pay the cops better, you'll probably have more 01:10:42.130 --> 01:10:45.850 people coming. That's an easy one, low -hanging 01:10:45.850 --> 01:10:50.329 fruit right there. Back when we joined as police 01:10:50.329 --> 01:10:57.430 officers, if you made a mistake, it was handled 01:10:57.430 --> 01:11:01.189 internally. I'm not talking about criminal stuff 01:11:01.189 --> 01:11:04.550 and you need to go to jail. I got no problem 01:11:04.550 --> 01:11:07.449 with that. If you're policing, you do a crime, 01:11:07.590 --> 01:11:10.229 then you go to jail like anybody else. But if 01:11:10.229 --> 01:11:15.970 you're doing the job and a mistake is made, you're 01:11:15.970 --> 01:11:18.350 doing it right, you've got the right intent, 01:11:18.569 --> 01:11:21.529 but a mistake is made, it used to be handled 01:11:21.529 --> 01:11:26.409 internally. You've written up and you have a 01:11:26.409 --> 01:11:30.649 policy violation and so forth and so on. Now, 01:11:30.649 --> 01:11:36.189 any mistake is looked at if it's criminal first. 01:11:38.000 --> 01:11:39.920 Then they look to see if you've got a policy 01:11:39.920 --> 01:11:44.319 violation. And, you know, there's a bunch of 01:11:44.319 --> 01:11:46.060 examples I can give you. I'm not going to get 01:11:46.060 --> 01:11:51.659 into that. That's a huge debate. But we have 01:11:51.659 --> 01:11:56.119 to get back to agencies backing the people for 01:11:56.119 --> 01:11:58.720 doing the right thing for the right reasons. 01:11:58.859 --> 01:12:02.600 Sometimes the outcome is not going to be, you 01:12:02.600 --> 01:12:08.699 know, cookie cutter. I'll give you a quick example 01:12:08.699 --> 01:12:11.680 of this. I just thought of one popped in my head. 01:12:11.819 --> 01:12:17.800 We had an officer that took down a woman that 01:12:17.800 --> 01:12:22.579 went across a courtyard threatening another woman. 01:12:23.479 --> 01:12:27.260 She walked across his courtyard yelling and threatened 01:12:27.260 --> 01:12:29.579 another woman about how she's going to beat her 01:12:29.579 --> 01:12:35.560 ass. She gets within feet of the other woman 01:12:35.560 --> 01:12:38.720 about to put hands on her. Officer intercepts 01:12:38.720 --> 01:12:46.239 her and takes her down to the ground. Handcuffs 01:12:46.239 --> 01:12:49.399 her. Now, when he took her down, she hit her 01:12:49.399 --> 01:12:57.840 head. It was an accident. First thing that was 01:12:57.840 --> 01:13:00.739 done was they wanted the officer charged with 01:13:00.739 --> 01:13:05.289 a crime. That's the days we live in right now. 01:13:06.149 --> 01:13:14.289 And I've got no problem with us being held to 01:13:14.289 --> 01:13:19.109 a high standard. We should be. We should be held 01:13:19.109 --> 01:13:21.890 to a high standard. We're the first responders. 01:13:22.069 --> 01:13:25.310 I've got no problem with that. But we're being 01:13:25.310 --> 01:13:29.680 held to a perfect standard now. And I don't know 01:13:29.680 --> 01:13:34.239 if that's attainable. And California, they just 01:13:34.239 --> 01:13:39.439 had a case, not just, but a year and a half ago 01:13:39.439 --> 01:13:42.079 or so. That's one of the things the jury said. 01:13:43.619 --> 01:13:48.279 If it's not perfect, then it's a violation of 01:13:48.279 --> 01:13:56.159 the law. If that continues, I don't know the 01:13:56.159 --> 01:13:59.979 answer to your question. Well, just to dovetail 01:13:59.979 --> 01:14:01.899 on that, and I'll throw it to Chris from an outside 01:14:01.899 --> 01:14:05.279 perspective, too. You mentioned California. I 01:14:05.279 --> 01:14:08.020 saw a news article a few weeks ago. Someone sent 01:14:08.020 --> 01:14:13.100 it to me. LAFD, the fire department of LA, their 01:14:13.100 --> 01:14:17.159 overtime budget for over a three year period 01:14:17.159 --> 01:14:22.159 was a billion dollars with a B. So firstly, the 01:14:22.159 --> 01:14:24.500 money is there. As Chris said, I've used this 01:14:24.500 --> 01:14:27.000 term all the time. It's a Desmond Tutu quote. 01:14:27.380 --> 01:14:29.979 We spend so much time pulling people out of the 01:14:29.979 --> 01:14:32.319 river, we forget to go upstream and find out 01:14:32.319 --> 01:14:34.939 why they're falling in in the first place. The 01:14:34.939 --> 01:14:39.399 money is there, but it's wasted. on all the time 01:14:39.399 --> 01:14:41.619 and a half you're paying, forcing these people 01:14:41.619 --> 01:14:44.039 to work these spots. Again, let's be completely 01:14:44.039 --> 01:14:46.619 honest, because you fucked it up from a management 01:14:46.619 --> 01:14:48.539 point of view for years and years and years. 01:14:48.720 --> 01:14:50.539 There's no point using, you know, kindergarten 01:14:50.539 --> 01:14:53.699 terms for that. You've got the lack of retention. 01:14:53.840 --> 01:14:56.380 So you pay police officers, firefighters, you 01:14:56.380 --> 01:14:58.479 know, to go through training and then they up 01:14:58.479 --> 01:15:00.279 sticks and they go somewhere else with all your 01:15:00.279 --> 01:15:02.619 certifications that you paid for. You've got 01:15:02.619 --> 01:15:04.319 the workman's comp claims that are through the 01:15:04.319 --> 01:15:07.100 roof. You've got the medical retirements. You've 01:15:07.100 --> 01:15:09.659 got the, God forbid, life of duty death payments. 01:15:09.840 --> 01:15:11.720 And then you've got the millions of dollars in 01:15:11.720 --> 01:15:14.939 the lawsuits when we do make the mistakes. Now 01:15:14.939 --> 01:15:17.739 you've created a recruitment crisis, lowered 01:15:17.739 --> 01:15:21.119 the bar. Now I've seen law enforcement agencies 01:15:21.119 --> 01:15:23.840 offer tens and tens and tens of thousands of 01:15:23.840 --> 01:15:26.659 dollars of signing bonuses. What is the quality 01:15:26.659 --> 01:15:29.399 of the candidate going to be like now? I had 01:15:29.399 --> 01:15:31.779 a retired police officer on the show a while 01:15:31.779 --> 01:15:35.000 ago who said that. For every bad employee that 01:15:35.000 --> 01:15:37.300 you hire, it takes half a million dollars to 01:15:37.300 --> 01:15:40.000 get rid of them. So imagine we'd use the word 01:15:40.000 --> 01:15:42.640 liability. What is the liability of allowing 01:15:42.640 --> 01:15:45.140 your department to be in such crisis that now 01:15:45.140 --> 01:15:47.199 you're lowering the bar thinking that's going 01:15:47.199 --> 01:15:49.659 to fix it, getting the wrong kind of people in 01:15:49.659 --> 01:15:52.340 uniform. And we've all seen those videos. And 01:15:52.340 --> 01:15:54.460 now you've just made everything worse rather 01:15:54.460 --> 01:15:57.039 than going downstream saying, holy shit, we've 01:15:57.039 --> 01:16:00.409 wasted all this money. Let's invest in our police 01:16:00.409 --> 01:16:02.590 department. Let's fix the things that are broken. 01:16:02.689 --> 01:16:05.250 Let's put the salary where it needs to be. Let's 01:16:05.250 --> 01:16:07.289 give them tax breaks or whatever so they can 01:16:07.289 --> 01:16:10.050 afford to live in this overly priced affluent 01:16:10.050 --> 01:16:15.109 city. And then let's get them back because the 01:16:15.109 --> 01:16:17.270 Wall Street Journal had an article a few months 01:16:17.270 --> 01:16:20.029 ago showing that Gen Z actually was going into 01:16:20.029 --> 01:16:22.590 the trades. But they look at our professions 01:16:22.590 --> 01:16:26.069 and they're like, hell no. Law enforcement, their 01:16:26.069 --> 01:16:30.090 legs get cut from under them. Fire is so overworked 01:16:30.090 --> 01:16:31.789 that they never see their family. And if you 01:16:31.789 --> 01:16:34.189 Google health issues of the fire service, it's 01:16:34.189 --> 01:16:37.529 a Wikipedia that's 10 pages long. So fix the 01:16:37.529 --> 01:16:39.369 things that are broken. You will bring the people 01:16:39.369 --> 01:16:42.630 back. But I think the nation has got to understand 01:16:42.630 --> 01:16:44.890 that this isn't like the line hasn't tapered 01:16:44.890 --> 01:16:47.449 off. It's still descending. And there is going 01:16:47.449 --> 01:16:49.750 to be a point of critical mass. And if we do 01:16:49.750 --> 01:16:54.829 not fix it, you will call 911. And no one's going 01:16:54.829 --> 01:16:57.529 to come. That's that's not scaremongering. It's 01:16:57.529 --> 01:17:02.170 the truth. Yeah. We're heading. James, you hit 01:17:02.170 --> 01:17:05.869 on the head. We're heading that way. I it's scary 01:17:05.869 --> 01:17:08.829 to think about it. But when when you start hearing 01:17:08.829 --> 01:17:10.930 when you start going to these bigger agencies 01:17:10.930 --> 01:17:15.770 and you hear that the 3000 understaffed, you 01:17:15.770 --> 01:17:18.170 know, Chicago, I forget some crazy like that 01:17:18.170 --> 01:17:22.170 as well. But. It's relative around the country. 01:17:22.189 --> 01:17:27.010 When you go to PDs that are 1 ,000, they're 102 01:17:27.010 --> 01:17:29.710 down, which is a big number for them. You've 01:17:29.710 --> 01:17:35.430 only got 1 ,000 officers. Unfortunately, there's 01:17:35.430 --> 01:17:38.029 going to be a day you're going to be put on hold. 01:17:39.430 --> 01:17:45.810 Chris? No. Kind of what Doug hit on was like 01:17:45.810 --> 01:17:49.560 the... anti -cop kind of rhetoric you know it's 01:17:49.560 --> 01:17:54.460 just like i don't like he said in most cases 01:17:54.460 --> 01:17:58.460 everybody loves firefighter except yeah except 01:17:58.460 --> 01:18:02.079 management but uh thinking the same thing administrator 01:18:02.079 --> 01:18:05.859 yeah but but i was thinking like what doug said 01:18:05.859 --> 01:18:09.819 the about the plumber kind of you know just you 01:18:09.819 --> 01:18:11.920 would never not call a plumber anymore because 01:18:11.920 --> 01:18:14.979 you had one bad one anytime there's i noticed 01:18:14.979 --> 01:18:18.380 there's a story about You know, looking on Reels 01:18:18.380 --> 01:18:20.560 or Instagram, just all that stuff. And there's 01:18:20.560 --> 01:18:22.800 a story about a cop that did something, you know, 01:18:22.800 --> 01:18:26.399 great or did this for this elderly person. You'll 01:18:26.399 --> 01:18:33.560 see somebody comment and say, you know, I wish 01:18:33.560 --> 01:18:36.819 there was more like this. But when you see a 01:18:36.819 --> 01:18:39.000 cop that does something like Rose said, that 01:18:39.000 --> 01:18:42.779 needs some discipline, needs whatever, and they 01:18:42.779 --> 01:18:45.750 do something wrong. The immediate remark is, 01:18:45.869 --> 01:18:49.029 just like all the rest of them. So when they 01:18:49.029 --> 01:18:50.289 do something good every night, you'll say, well, 01:18:50.329 --> 01:18:51.750 there's a few good, but then when they do something 01:18:51.750 --> 01:18:53.670 bad, it's like all the rest of them, they all 01:18:53.670 --> 01:18:59.090 get put in this one category because they're 01:18:59.090 --> 01:19:03.989 under such public scrutiny. It is crazy. If they 01:19:03.989 --> 01:19:08.430 would go behind the scenes of a fire department 01:19:08.430 --> 01:19:12.250 and what a fire chief deals with every day of 01:19:12.250 --> 01:19:15.600 this employee, getting a DUI or this employee 01:19:15.600 --> 01:19:18.560 involved in domestic violence or this employee 01:19:18.560 --> 01:19:25.020 involved in this. I mean, the fire world doesn't 01:19:25.020 --> 01:19:28.420 get the public scrutiny that the officers do. 01:19:28.819 --> 01:19:32.399 And I've got several buddies here who are retired 01:19:32.399 --> 01:19:35.560 cops and they've discouraged their sons. Two 01:19:35.560 --> 01:19:38.239 of them are actually in the fire service now. 01:19:38.460 --> 01:19:42.500 And that's a sad statement that you would actually 01:19:43.020 --> 01:19:48.039 just you know discourage um somebody from being 01:19:48.039 --> 01:19:51.479 a police officer i mean that's just it's just 01:19:51.479 --> 01:19:55.239 insane um and that's another thing i think you 01:19:55.239 --> 01:19:57.479 know it's one of the things we want a quick quick 01:19:57.479 --> 01:20:00.680 fix and it's not going to be quick it took 20 01:20:00.680 --> 01:20:02.859 30 years to destroy it it's going to take more 01:20:02.859 --> 01:20:06.920 than one you know fiscal year to fix it yeah 01:20:06.920 --> 01:20:11.560 you got that right james yeah yeah police officers 01:20:11.560 --> 01:20:15.979 are definitely um guilty until proven innocent 01:20:15.979 --> 01:20:20.319 i mean yeah yeah without a doubt it's it's it's 01:20:20.319 --> 01:20:21.760 sad and it's just going to get worse because 01:20:21.760 --> 01:20:24.159 like i said not just the bar but for every police 01:20:24.159 --> 01:20:26.500 and fire for every person who's forced to work 01:20:26.500 --> 01:20:29.579 extra shifts it's again going back to science 01:20:29.579 --> 01:20:31.960 you know neuroscience sleep medicine science 01:20:31.960 --> 01:20:35.199 we are more likely to make mistakes so i always 01:20:35.199 --> 01:20:38.880 said you know we when do you ever hear When there's 01:20:38.880 --> 01:20:41.279 that gray area, you know, shooting or whatever 01:20:41.279 --> 01:20:43.659 is in law enforcement, you've got the good shoot 01:20:43.659 --> 01:20:45.699 and then you've got the, you know, the clearly 01:20:45.699 --> 01:20:48.220 the police completely screwed up. We know of 01:20:48.220 --> 01:20:50.119 the both of those. But the one in the middle, 01:20:50.199 --> 01:20:52.880 the teenagers, you know, nervous. He's 17. He 01:20:52.880 --> 01:20:55.520 just started. He reaches for his license or his 01:20:55.520 --> 01:20:58.060 insurance papers that are in the glove box. And, 01:20:58.079 --> 01:20:59.840 you know, and there's this confusion is tinted 01:20:59.840 --> 01:21:01.979 and all of a sudden shots are fired. When is 01:21:01.979 --> 01:21:04.140 anyone ever talking about how many? shifts as 01:21:04.140 --> 01:21:06.039 that officer work? When was the last time they 01:21:06.039 --> 01:21:08.359 slept? What was their training level? It's always 01:21:08.359 --> 01:21:10.260 on the officer, they made a mistake. And the 01:21:10.260 --> 01:21:13.680 thing is, the more, you know, understaffed the 01:21:13.680 --> 01:21:16.720 department gets, the more underslept, overstressed 01:21:16.720 --> 01:21:18.659 these men and women are, and the lower the bar 01:21:18.659 --> 01:21:21.899 is created, you're just increasing the chance. 01:21:21.960 --> 01:21:24.180 So this defund thing and everything else is like, 01:21:24.220 --> 01:21:25.979 oh, let's make it worse. The same way as when 01:21:25.979 --> 01:21:28.399 COVID swept through, you couldn't have made it 01:21:28.399 --> 01:21:30.520 worse if you tried than saying stay at home. 01:21:30.880 --> 01:21:33.300 Don't see anyone you love. Order fast food and 01:21:33.300 --> 01:21:36.140 alcohol and binge watch Tiger King. That'll do 01:21:36.140 --> 01:21:38.920 it. You know what I mean? So everything that 01:21:38.920 --> 01:21:41.359 we were told was completely the opposite, and 01:21:41.359 --> 01:21:43.560 it's the same with law enforcement. If you look 01:21:43.560 --> 01:21:47.119 at Finland, in their education system, when there's 01:21:47.119 --> 01:21:49.159 a school in an area that's struggling, maybe 01:21:49.159 --> 01:21:53.359 socioeconomically is not as fortunate as other 01:21:53.359 --> 01:21:56.920 areas, they pour more money into it. and they 01:21:56.920 --> 01:21:58.979 bring it up with everyone else. What do we do 01:21:58.979 --> 01:22:01.140 in America? We penalize those schools in the 01:22:01.140 --> 01:22:03.560 poor areas, and we take funding away from them. 01:22:03.800 --> 01:22:06.239 It's the same with the first responder professions, 01:22:06.319 --> 01:22:10.890 and we need to switch that around. Yeah. Dang, 01:22:10.930 --> 01:22:17.449 James Gearing for president. You got my vote. 01:22:17.550 --> 01:22:20.250 That sounded better than I've heard in the past 01:22:20.250 --> 01:22:28.229 three or four presidents right there. Great conversation. 01:22:28.770 --> 01:22:33.310 I mean, you know, this conversation opens the 01:22:33.310 --> 01:22:37.170 doors to many different pathways in our profession 01:22:37.170 --> 01:22:43.109 that could be worked on. You know, I hope a lot 01:22:43.109 --> 01:22:46.550 of people get to see this and take this narrative 01:22:46.550 --> 01:22:49.289 back to work with them and try to improve it 01:22:49.289 --> 01:22:52.149 and work on it. Because if we don't, it's not 01:22:52.149 --> 01:22:54.170 going to get better. It's not going to fix itself. 01:22:56.149 --> 01:22:59.909 And, you know, we've got to put more effort into 01:22:59.909 --> 01:23:04.029 it. And I'm all for it. I know on my end, I work. 01:23:04.980 --> 01:23:07.939 I just said this the other day to a buddy of 01:23:07.939 --> 01:23:10.300 mine. He was like, man, I never see you anymore. 01:23:11.239 --> 01:23:15.800 And I said, man, I wish I was still a cop. It 01:23:15.800 --> 01:23:18.760 was easier. I work harder now than I ever have 01:23:18.760 --> 01:23:21.060 in my life. I mean, I was a drug agent, man. 01:23:21.140 --> 01:23:23.859 How hard is it to buy and sell drugs and go out 01:23:23.859 --> 01:23:27.279 and drink and go to bars and do that stuff? But 01:23:27.279 --> 01:23:33.300 this journey here, it's difficult. And what people 01:23:33.300 --> 01:23:37.220 don't realize, too, you know, the bottom end 01:23:37.220 --> 01:23:40.180 of this conversation, the very bottom end when 01:23:40.180 --> 01:23:43.180 it comes to mental health is when you got to 01:23:43.180 --> 01:23:47.760 pick up that phone and you have a first responder 01:23:47.760 --> 01:23:50.579 on the other end of that phone who's got a gun 01:23:50.579 --> 01:23:54.479 in their mouth and their wife screaming in the 01:23:54.479 --> 01:23:59.260 background, help me, help me, help my husband. 01:24:00.170 --> 01:24:03.029 And you're on the other line trying everything 01:24:03.029 --> 01:24:06.670 you can to talk that person out of taking their 01:24:06.670 --> 01:24:12.449 own life. And the problem that this person is 01:24:12.449 --> 01:24:17.550 having is due to signing up to be a hero. Every 01:24:17.550 --> 01:24:20.189 police officer and firefighter, the minute you 01:24:20.189 --> 01:24:24.239 sign that line, you become an instant hero. The 01:24:24.239 --> 01:24:27.939 same with the military. The day you acknowledge 01:24:27.939 --> 01:24:30.960 that you're going to sacrifice your life for 01:24:30.960 --> 01:24:35.439 the better, you know, livelihood of human beings, 01:24:35.600 --> 01:24:39.420 that puts you in a hero category. And we need 01:24:39.420 --> 01:24:42.760 to treat those people like such. And I just hope 01:24:42.760 --> 01:24:45.479 that somewhere along the line, we just start 01:24:45.479 --> 01:24:48.390 doing a better job. You can always do better. 01:24:48.449 --> 01:24:51.850 I believe in that. We can do better, and we need 01:24:51.850 --> 01:24:55.109 to do a better job of taking care of each other. 01:24:56.569 --> 01:24:59.770 Absolutely. Agreed. When I get to speak, Mal, 01:24:59.909 --> 01:25:03.350 I always, always end it with this real quick. 01:25:03.449 --> 01:25:04.689 We're talking about taking care of each other. 01:25:05.850 --> 01:25:10.210 When I retired March 1, 2017, after 32 years 01:25:10.210 --> 01:25:13.189 of service, you know what happened on March 2? 01:25:14.890 --> 01:25:17.270 They promoted somebody and put them in my seat. 01:25:17.810 --> 01:25:19.949 And the Oklahoma City Fire Department hasn't 01:25:19.949 --> 01:25:25.989 missed a beat. Orlando, Coco, I can't remember 01:25:25.989 --> 01:25:27.770 the last one you worked at. America I worked 01:25:27.770 --> 01:25:31.590 for, so pick one. There you go. None of them 01:25:31.590 --> 01:25:33.729 have called us to ask us to come back to work, 01:25:33.869 --> 01:25:37.750 except maybe for Doug, or ask our opinion about 01:25:37.750 --> 01:25:39.970 anything. So, man, we do. We've got to take care 01:25:39.970 --> 01:25:43.220 of each other at the end of the day. Absolutely. 01:25:43.380 --> 01:25:46.699 Would you guys have time to just talk about the 01:25:46.699 --> 01:25:52.000 mental health boom and the different organizations 01:25:52.000 --> 01:25:54.699 that you run and that you trust for people that 01:25:54.699 --> 01:25:58.640 are listening before I let you go? Yeah. Okay, 01:25:58.699 --> 01:26:00.819 awesome. So let's talk about that. I have, again, 01:26:00.979 --> 01:26:03.340 nine years, still kind of a baby compared to 01:26:03.340 --> 01:26:07.039 the real kind of long -toothed individuals in 01:26:07.039 --> 01:26:08.579 the mental health space and first responders. 01:26:08.699 --> 01:26:12.199 But in that short time... I've seen the initial, 01:26:12.380 --> 01:26:15.279 you know, we need to smash the stigma to the 01:26:15.279 --> 01:26:17.600 evolution of the conversation. But sadly, I've 01:26:17.600 --> 01:26:21.699 seen some fantastic organizations that have been 01:26:21.699 --> 01:26:24.100 there for the right reason. And I've seen even 01:26:24.100 --> 01:26:26.619 how people approach me to want to sponsor this 01:26:26.619 --> 01:26:29.819 show. Organizations that even in the rhetoric, 01:26:30.039 --> 01:26:32.000 they haven't disguised the fact that there's 01:26:32.000 --> 01:26:33.720 a lot of money to be made in first responder 01:26:33.720 --> 01:26:36.960 mental health. So talk to me about the, you know, 01:26:36.960 --> 01:26:40.119 what you term the mental health boom. Let's talk 01:26:40.119 --> 01:26:42.859 about that. What have been some of the low points 01:26:42.859 --> 01:26:46.220 when it comes to what are supposed to be trusted 01:26:46.220 --> 01:26:48.640 organizations in this, and then what are you 01:26:48.640 --> 01:26:52.760 seeing today so that there's some optimism for 01:26:52.760 --> 01:26:55.180 people looking for organizations that won't let 01:26:55.180 --> 01:27:00.380 them down? I don't know. Doug is probably more 01:27:00.380 --> 01:27:03.380 well -spoken on some of the organizations that 01:27:03.380 --> 01:27:05.560 he's seen come and go because of his work with 01:27:05.560 --> 01:27:08.850 Survive First and all that. As far as the optimism, 01:27:10.550 --> 01:27:14.649 I can say it's going to be slow. And like we 01:27:14.649 --> 01:27:16.970 always say, if we just reach that one person, 01:27:17.130 --> 01:27:19.630 and you really have to believe that because it 01:27:19.630 --> 01:27:21.670 gets frustrating at times. I've thought several 01:27:21.670 --> 01:27:25.630 times about just going, you know what, I'm tired 01:27:25.630 --> 01:27:30.250 of just talking to the wall or whatever. But 01:27:30.250 --> 01:27:36.880 being optimistic, I do see a shift. It's a slow 01:27:36.880 --> 01:27:39.460 one, but I do see a shift. I spoke at a little 01:27:39.460 --> 01:27:43.140 town here in Oklahoma just the other day. They 01:27:43.140 --> 01:27:44.960 have a little recruit academy going on, like 01:27:44.960 --> 01:27:49.680 a vo -tech technology school. And one of the 01:27:49.680 --> 01:27:53.399 towns that's around there came. And I was really 01:27:53.399 --> 01:27:56.500 encouraged for the fact that the fire chief was 01:27:56.500 --> 01:27:58.819 sitting in there. The assistant fire chief was 01:27:58.819 --> 01:28:01.779 sitting in there. One of the people from the 01:28:01.779 --> 01:28:05.430 city council was sitting in there. So the fact 01:28:05.430 --> 01:28:09.770 that the mental health stuff is being talked 01:28:09.770 --> 01:28:14.409 about earlier in careers now, instead of waiting 01:28:14.409 --> 01:28:16.829 until, like say, they're in the river and drowning. 01:28:18.229 --> 01:28:23.050 But to see that fire chief, real quick, I was 01:28:23.050 --> 01:28:27.250 in Sacramento for a week, and I did my presentation 01:28:27.250 --> 01:28:30.609 like two times a day to get all the four platoons 01:28:30.609 --> 01:28:34.029 that they have and all that. At the very end, 01:28:34.149 --> 01:28:37.029 the fire chief had kind of stuck his head in 01:28:37.029 --> 01:28:39.210 and out when he could, you know. Well, the last 01:28:39.210 --> 01:28:41.869 day he came in, he was in there about the last 01:28:41.869 --> 01:28:44.810 20 or 30 minutes. And when I got done, he said, 01:28:44.909 --> 01:28:46.529 hey, I want to come up there. And he started 01:28:46.529 --> 01:28:49.390 thanking me and thanking the peer support team. 01:28:50.229 --> 01:28:54.149 I don't know what conviction came over him. He 01:28:54.149 --> 01:28:58.569 spoke for an hour, told his story, told his. 01:28:58.670 --> 01:29:01.649 And I told. When I got done, I told their peers, 01:29:01.689 --> 01:29:04.010 I said, let me tell you something. I appreciate 01:29:04.010 --> 01:29:06.609 you having me out for a week. And I said, but 01:29:06.609 --> 01:29:11.270 this group got more from that 45 minutes from 01:29:11.270 --> 01:29:14.989 that fire chief than they did from any anything 01:29:14.989 --> 01:29:18.489 I said, because that's their fire chief. He just 01:29:18.489 --> 01:29:21.609 got up there in front of everybody and was vulnerable. 01:29:22.210 --> 01:29:25.449 And, you know, so so that's the optimism I see. 01:29:25.489 --> 01:29:29.510 I see I see a shift. towards that and and that's 01:29:29.510 --> 01:29:34.010 encouraging yeah there's a lot of good chiefs 01:29:34.010 --> 01:29:35.869 out there and there's a lot of good people out 01:29:35.869 --> 01:29:39.109 there still doing a good job um you know it's 01:29:39.109 --> 01:29:42.989 just in this day and age everybody gets all their 01:29:42.989 --> 01:29:46.489 information from social media and unfortunately 01:29:46.489 --> 01:29:49.989 social media only wants to show horrible stuff 01:29:49.989 --> 01:29:55.750 combat fights, lies, deception, because that's 01:29:55.750 --> 01:29:58.970 what sells. And unfortunately, there's a lot 01:29:58.970 --> 01:30:00.850 of good people out there doing a lot of good 01:30:00.850 --> 01:30:03.569 work. And there's still, there's a lot of good 01:30:03.569 --> 01:30:07.930 organizations in the mental health field doing 01:30:07.930 --> 01:30:14.069 a great job. Our organization has been, I'll 01:30:14.069 --> 01:30:16.949 say, I'm not going to say we're the best, even 01:30:16.949 --> 01:30:20.939 though I think we do a great job. But I will 01:30:20.939 --> 01:30:23.720 say this, one thing that this organization has 01:30:23.720 --> 01:30:26.760 done and which I preach to a lot of people is 01:30:26.760 --> 01:30:31.420 we've stayed in our lane the entire time. When 01:30:31.420 --> 01:30:35.720 we came to this platform, we made an agreement 01:30:35.720 --> 01:30:38.159 of what we were going to provide, the service 01:30:38.159 --> 01:30:40.500 we were going to provide for first responders, 01:30:40.800 --> 01:30:45.460 and that's all we've ever done. And in the boom, 01:30:45.539 --> 01:30:48.380 as you asked, James, when the boom kicked off, 01:30:49.170 --> 01:30:52.130 Everybody and their brother, and that's just 01:30:52.130 --> 01:30:55.949 unfortunate of humankind, were greedy and were 01:30:55.949 --> 01:31:00.390 money driven. And everybody saw all these opportunities 01:31:00.390 --> 01:31:04.010 to make money in the first responder industry 01:31:04.010 --> 01:31:07.229 because they just think first responders, their 01:31:07.229 --> 01:31:11.210 business, their cities, their governments, they 01:31:11.210 --> 01:31:15.630 have money, they have money to spend. And companies 01:31:15.630 --> 01:31:19.560 came out of the woodworks. Phone companies came 01:31:19.560 --> 01:31:23.460 and dumped money. Car companies, you name it, 01:31:23.479 --> 01:31:27.060 big corporations came in, dumped tons of money 01:31:27.060 --> 01:31:30.359 into the mental health industry only to boost 01:31:30.359 --> 01:31:34.279 their company. And then they took their money 01:31:34.279 --> 01:31:38.220 and they left. And they're all gone. And all 01:31:38.220 --> 01:31:41.119 the fly -by -night companies that came in and 01:31:41.119 --> 01:31:44.340 tried to make a quick dollar, they're all gone. 01:31:45.039 --> 01:31:47.720 the people that are still around. And the second 01:31:47.720 --> 01:31:50.920 part of your question, what organizations would 01:31:50.920 --> 01:31:54.739 we, would we vouch for? I mean, there's, there's 01:31:54.739 --> 01:31:57.699 tons depending what, what department or what 01:31:57.699 --> 01:32:01.359 arena you look in. But what I would say to anybody 01:32:01.359 --> 01:32:06.039 is do your research. You always want to look 01:32:06.039 --> 01:32:09.159 for the organization or the treatment center 01:32:09.159 --> 01:32:14.159 or the provider or the therapeutic group or whatever 01:32:14.159 --> 01:32:19.079 it is. Look for lineage. I think, James, you 01:32:19.079 --> 01:32:21.420 and I had this conversation a long time ago about 01:32:21.420 --> 01:32:23.779 martial arts. You and I are both former martial 01:32:23.779 --> 01:32:29.510 artists. And I went to the Gracies. for jiu -jitsu 01:32:29.510 --> 01:32:32.750 because I looked at their lineage. They had been 01:32:32.750 --> 01:32:36.909 around for so long and they have proven over 01:32:36.909 --> 01:32:42.130 decades their quality of work that they've done. 01:32:42.989 --> 01:32:45.590 You have to do the same thing in this industry. 01:32:45.770 --> 01:32:49.510 You have to look for lineage, look for quality 01:32:49.510 --> 01:32:53.409 control, look how long they've been around, look 01:32:53.409 --> 01:32:57.869 into their company, look at the good things they've 01:32:57.869 --> 01:33:01.329 done, look at their ratings, because you're dealing 01:33:01.329 --> 01:33:04.090 with somebody's life, and you don't want to compromise 01:33:04.090 --> 01:33:08.750 them and just hire some kook. who just showed 01:33:08.750 --> 01:33:11.810 up yesterday and decided, I'm going to start 01:33:11.810 --> 01:33:14.770 a business and I'm going to make a bunch of money. 01:33:14.930 --> 01:33:18.289 And so I go to this police department and I tell 01:33:18.289 --> 01:33:21.609 them, hey, I can do this for you. Never done 01:33:21.609 --> 01:33:25.170 it before in their life, but that chief or that 01:33:25.170 --> 01:33:29.010 agency sees an opportunity to check a box. And 01:33:29.010 --> 01:33:31.489 they can check the box because this dude's going 01:33:31.489 --> 01:33:35.680 to sell you his class for $500. But this dude 01:33:35.680 --> 01:33:39.239 over here who's been around for 5, 10, 12, 15 01:33:39.239 --> 01:33:42.979 years, he's going to charge $800. But we're not 01:33:42.979 --> 01:33:45.220 going to go with him because this guy's $300 01:33:45.220 --> 01:33:49.220 more cheaper. That's what we have to do is we 01:33:49.220 --> 01:33:52.880 have to focus in order to fix that problem is 01:33:52.880 --> 01:33:56.279 really take our time and research who it is we're 01:33:56.279 --> 01:33:58.500 looking for and what it is we're looking for 01:33:58.500 --> 01:34:03.199 and the lineage of that company and also their 01:34:03.199 --> 01:34:06.369 rating. Are they doing the right thing? Are they 01:34:06.369 --> 01:34:09.149 ethically doing the right thing? Are they honorably 01:34:09.149 --> 01:34:12.829 doing the right thing? One thing that I've always 01:34:12.829 --> 01:34:15.989 said with my organization, and the guys will 01:34:15.989 --> 01:34:19.670 tell you this, I have never let anybody come 01:34:19.670 --> 01:34:23.289 near this organization that has a red flag on 01:34:23.289 --> 01:34:27.729 them. If your organization has a red flag or 01:34:27.729 --> 01:34:30.890 multiple red flags, you can't come play in our 01:34:30.890 --> 01:34:34.050 game. You can't come play in our arena because 01:34:34.050 --> 01:34:38.069 there's no room for error in this industry. Because 01:34:38.069 --> 01:34:41.430 if there is error in this industry, it could 01:34:41.430 --> 01:34:44.449 cause somebody's life. And that's unacceptable 01:34:44.449 --> 01:34:49.869 to me. So I say it again, really take your time 01:34:49.869 --> 01:34:53.909 and look into the organizations, the programs, 01:34:54.250 --> 01:34:58.550 the teaching programs, things like that. And 01:34:58.550 --> 01:35:01.449 make sure that you're hiring or you're purchasing 01:35:01.449 --> 01:35:05.350 or you're using somebody with the proper quality 01:35:05.350 --> 01:35:08.689 and the proper education and training that they're 01:35:08.689 --> 01:35:11.569 going to give you. Yeah, don't get the $8 knife. 01:35:13.210 --> 01:35:18.649 Don't buy the $8 knife. No, no. Buy the microtech. 01:35:19.210 --> 01:35:22.829 I think Chris and Doug have kind of hit everything 01:35:22.829 --> 01:35:27.289 on the head. You know, I think. We've seen over 01:35:27.289 --> 01:35:32.109 the years, you can just go to conferences now 01:35:32.109 --> 01:35:36.029 and see the difference from five years ago to 01:35:36.029 --> 01:35:38.430 now. When we're talking about wellness conferences, 01:35:38.789 --> 01:35:42.109 they've gotten smaller. They've dwindled a little 01:35:42.109 --> 01:35:47.130 bit. I think some of the boom that happened and 01:35:47.130 --> 01:35:50.310 people getting into the industry, the first responder 01:35:50.310 --> 01:35:53.670 mental health industry, they got into it for 01:35:53.670 --> 01:35:56.380 the... Maybe they got into it for the right reasons. 01:35:56.420 --> 01:35:58.119 I don't mean to say that I know that they didn't, 01:35:58.119 --> 01:36:01.739 but they got into it and have fallen by the wayside 01:36:01.739 --> 01:36:04.760 for whatever reason. We also have those that 01:36:04.760 --> 01:36:07.220 we know did get into it for the greedy reason. 01:36:08.060 --> 01:36:13.060 But, yeah, we've seen a shrinkage, if you will, 01:36:13.159 --> 01:36:18.260 of just that type stuff. So, you know, there's 01:36:18.260 --> 01:36:21.180 people, there's organizations like Survive First 01:36:21.180 --> 01:36:26.319 that you can go to that we... We meticulously, 01:36:26.439 --> 01:36:30.239 is that the right word, vet resources that we 01:36:30.239 --> 01:36:34.880 associate with. So if we're sending you somewhere, 01:36:35.140 --> 01:36:37.640 it's because we trust them. We've touched them. 01:36:37.779 --> 01:36:42.399 We know what they do, and we trust that. And 01:36:42.399 --> 01:36:45.859 if we haven't touched them, we'll be very, very 01:36:45.859 --> 01:36:48.420 honest about that. Hey, we've heard of that place, 01:36:48.479 --> 01:36:51.979 but we can't give you a... you know, anything 01:36:51.979 --> 01:36:54.739 more. We just don't know enough about it. So 01:36:54.739 --> 01:36:56.560 we just won't say, you know, too much about that 01:36:56.560 --> 01:37:00.600 kind of thing. So the boom was there. The boom 01:37:00.600 --> 01:37:06.140 is, I think it's kind of, I think it's on the 01:37:06.140 --> 01:37:09.380 downside, if you will. That's just, you know, 01:37:09.380 --> 01:37:13.300 from my friendly observations, my humble observations, 01:37:13.539 --> 01:37:17.119 I mean, we get the, we're so fortunate to travel 01:37:17.119 --> 01:37:20.920 around the country and see uh different resources 01:37:20.920 --> 01:37:24.260 and different conferences and and you can see 01:37:24.260 --> 01:37:27.319 the difference even at the bigger conferences 01:37:27.319 --> 01:37:32.840 that we would go to four or five years ago and 01:37:32.840 --> 01:37:35.560 look at look at the conference now you can see 01:37:35.560 --> 01:37:38.760 the difference right and the amount of people 01:37:38.760 --> 01:37:43.819 there um so it's yeah we're under that so i think 01:37:43.819 --> 01:37:47.779 the people we're uh Those that have fallen by 01:37:47.779 --> 01:37:49.539 the wayside, I think now what you're getting 01:37:49.539 --> 01:37:51.720 is hopefully the people that are in it for the 01:37:51.720 --> 01:37:54.779 long haul. And now, like Doug said, you've got 01:37:54.779 --> 01:37:59.180 to go ahead and be picky about what you want. 01:37:59.340 --> 01:38:01.979 You know, you need to do your own research. There 01:38:01.979 --> 01:38:04.460 are many, many resources out there that do a 01:38:04.460 --> 01:38:08.739 great job. I look at it as a card, though, you 01:38:08.739 --> 01:38:13.520 know, so if you can. This is where I'm trying 01:38:13.520 --> 01:38:20.529 to if if. Many of them do decent work. So I can 01:38:20.529 --> 01:38:23.369 buy a Yugo and it's going to get me from point 01:38:23.369 --> 01:38:28.289 A to point B just fine. I'm telling you that 01:38:28.289 --> 01:38:30.869 there's resources out there like a Mercedes that'll 01:38:30.869 --> 01:38:33.590 get you from point A to point B. And it's a better 01:38:33.590 --> 01:38:37.029 ride in the middle. More comfortable ride and 01:38:37.029 --> 01:38:39.689 you're not paying more money. But you got to 01:38:39.689 --> 01:38:45.779 do the research and find out. uh and the resources 01:38:45.779 --> 01:38:49.340 are out there and if we're gonna if i'm gonna 01:38:49.340 --> 01:38:53.000 pump one up uh pump a few up you know you've 01:38:53.000 --> 01:38:55.520 got uh chris and i'll let him talk about what 01:38:55.520 --> 01:38:58.140 he does in the oklahoman organization he's with 01:38:58.140 --> 01:39:01.239 survive versus if one call this week we'll tell 01:39:01.239 --> 01:39:05.880 you you know uh what we know you know and we 01:39:05.880 --> 01:39:09.909 have a network around the country After action, 01:39:10.069 --> 01:39:14.050 call us. We do work around the country. Lighthouse 01:39:14.050 --> 01:39:15.930 Health and Wellness, call us. We do work around 01:39:15.930 --> 01:39:20.029 the country. Chris, jump in there. No, I was 01:39:20.029 --> 01:39:23.329 going to say, especially in Oklahoma, you know, 01:39:23.350 --> 01:39:25.850 had the oil boom and then it kind of tailed off. 01:39:25.949 --> 01:39:28.890 Same way in the middle, how I said there was 01:39:28.890 --> 01:39:31.510 the boom. And it's not that it's a bust, but 01:39:31.510 --> 01:39:36.390 you can see that that. The boom level is leveling 01:39:36.390 --> 01:39:38.770 off. So I always look at the ones that were there 01:39:38.770 --> 01:39:42.409 before the boom, and they're still around after 01:39:42.409 --> 01:39:45.489 the boom. Those are the ones that I think more 01:39:45.489 --> 01:39:49.329 so are in it for the right reason. And it is, 01:39:49.369 --> 01:39:53.729 like they said, it's about vetting them. The 01:39:53.729 --> 01:39:55.829 Oklahoma First Sponders Wellness Division, that's 01:39:55.829 --> 01:39:59.310 what we do. Me and Danny have been around and 01:39:59.310 --> 01:40:03.270 vetted a few facilities, and just like Raul said. 01:40:04.369 --> 01:40:06.670 we'll say these are ones, you know, we have, 01:40:06.810 --> 01:40:11.449 I would trust them. I would go to them. If we 01:40:11.449 --> 01:40:12.970 haven't met them, that's what we'll tell them. 01:40:13.090 --> 01:40:17.890 And so I'm like, I'm like the ones that were 01:40:17.890 --> 01:40:20.449 there before. And there were, there were ones 01:40:20.449 --> 01:40:22.770 that were there before, you know, they were country 01:40:22.770 --> 01:40:24.430 before country was cool or however that song 01:40:24.430 --> 01:40:27.289 goes, you know? So they were doing this work 01:40:27.289 --> 01:40:31.289 long before the boom. And then now that it's 01:40:31.289 --> 01:40:33.479 kind of, And you've seen some, you've seen some 01:40:33.479 --> 01:40:38.020 of these organizations, these facilities have 01:40:38.020 --> 01:40:41.140 removed their first responder program or have 01:40:41.140 --> 01:40:43.279 removed, you know, they've still got their mental 01:40:43.279 --> 01:40:44.920 health facility, but now they've removed their, 01:40:45.000 --> 01:40:46.960 because they've about ran the gamut. They've 01:40:46.960 --> 01:40:50.119 about made all they can make off that. So, you 01:40:50.119 --> 01:40:52.380 know, that's what I say. It's just a, it's, there's 01:40:52.380 --> 01:40:56.380 so many resources out there. It is like buying 01:40:56.380 --> 01:41:01.439 a car or, I mean, you just have to. You have 01:41:01.439 --> 01:41:04.180 to vet them and make sure that's the one that 01:41:04.180 --> 01:41:08.000 fits you. They're all going to tell you they're 01:41:08.000 --> 01:41:09.399 a fit for you, but you've got to make sure they 01:41:09.399 --> 01:41:13.270 fit you. absolutely well i'll get you guys after 01:41:13.270 --> 01:41:16.710 we hang up to send me you know links to any of 01:41:16.710 --> 01:41:18.590 the organizations obviously you know survive 01:41:18.590 --> 01:41:20.010 first and all the ones that you've mentioned 01:41:20.010 --> 01:41:22.689 and i'll put them on the show notes as well but 01:41:22.689 --> 01:41:24.609 i want to be mindful of your time i'm sure you 01:41:24.609 --> 01:41:25.989 know it's evening for everyone listening for 01:41:25.989 --> 01:41:27.869 all of us recording so i know we've got families 01:41:27.869 --> 01:41:31.210 and places to go now so i want to thank all of 01:41:31.210 --> 01:41:33.569 you firstly for the initial conversation that 01:41:33.569 --> 01:41:35.789 we did independently but this has been so so 01:41:36.510 --> 01:41:38.909 you know, powerful to get all these perspectives 01:41:38.909 --> 01:41:40.850 because you guys have been in this space for 01:41:40.850 --> 01:41:43.930 so long after your career and talk about some 01:41:43.930 --> 01:41:45.550 of the things that we have. I know it's going 01:41:45.550 --> 01:41:47.109 to help the people listening and I know some 01:41:47.109 --> 01:41:48.989 of the resources we're going to list are going 01:41:48.989 --> 01:41:51.329 to help them from here on in. So I want to thank 01:41:51.329 --> 01:41:53.630 all three of you for being so generous with your 01:41:53.630 --> 01:41:55.470 time and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast 01:41:55.470 --> 01:42:00.439 today. I'm honored. Thank you, James. I'm honored 01:42:00.439 --> 01:42:02.659 to be here. Thank you, James. Thank you, man. 01:42:02.819 --> 01:42:05.159 It's good to see you. It's good to talk to you 01:42:05.159 --> 01:42:09.060 as always and keep up the good work. Definitely. 01:42:09.260 --> 01:42:11.100 You've been doing some great work for a long 01:42:11.100 --> 01:42:13.859 time and you've been helping a lot of people. 01:42:13.899 --> 01:42:17.180 And I will tell you, the three of us are honored 01:42:17.180 --> 01:42:19.680 to know you. That's for sure. And that's why 01:42:19.680 --> 01:42:21.680 I always tell people when I always talk about 01:42:21.680 --> 01:42:26.149 your podcast. I should be compensated for the 01:42:26.149 --> 01:42:29.189 work I do for you. But I'm just kidding. No, 01:42:29.289 --> 01:42:32.369 but what I tell people is what I like. It's not 01:42:32.369 --> 01:42:35.130 just all first responder mental health, man. 01:42:35.210 --> 01:42:38.630 It's how sleep hygiene ties into you have. So 01:42:38.630 --> 01:42:43.149 you run the gamut of every every aspect of it 01:42:43.149 --> 01:42:47.090 may not always be first responder specific, but 01:42:47.090 --> 01:42:49.710 it always find its way to tie in somehow. And 01:42:49.710 --> 01:42:51.890 so that's what I appreciate about your podcast.