WEBVTT

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I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new

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to my conversation with John on episode 1011

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of the Behind the Shield podcast. This episode

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is sponsored by Bubz Naturals, yet another company

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that I tracked down to bring on as a sponsor

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because I myself love their products. They are

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offering you, the audience of the Behind the

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Shield podcast, a 20 % discount. But before we

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get to that, I do want to highlight a few of

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the products that I use myself. Firstly, collagen.

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I am about to turn 50, and so my hair, my skin,

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my nails, not really a big concern when I was

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younger, definitely a lot more of a concern now.

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However, where I've really seen the impact is

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joint health and gut health, and I've been blown

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away that when I'm consistent using collagen,

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Bubz Collagen in this case, I see a massive improvement

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in both. Another area, I drink coffee, love coffee,

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Sean and TJ. So 10 % of every single sale goes

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towards the Glenn Doherty Foundation. Now, as

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I mentioned before, they are offering you, the

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audience, 20 % off your purchase if you use the

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.com. And finally, if you want to hear more about

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their products and Glenn's powerful story, listen

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to episode 558 with co -founder Sean Lake. Welcome

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to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,

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my name is James Geering, and this week it is

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my absolute honor to welcome on the show Deputy

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Fire Chief of Operations for Washington, D .C.

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Fire and EMS, Sean Downs. Now, in this conversation,

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we discuss a host of topics from Sean's journey

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into the fire service, 9 -11, the insurrection,

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the tragic recent aviation accident, their 24

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-72 shift schedule, some incredible mental health

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and physical health wellness initiatives. violence

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in the workplace, and so much more. Now, before

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we get to this incredible conversation, as I

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say every week, please just take a moment. Go

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to whichever app you listen to this podcast on,

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subscribe to the show. Leave feedback and leave

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a rating. Every single five -star rating truly

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does elevate this podcast, therefore making it

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easier for others to find. And this is a free

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library of well over 1 ,100 episodes now. So

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all I ask in return is that you help share these

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incredible men and women's stories so I can get

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them to every single person on planet Earth who

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needs to hear them. So with that being said,

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I introduce to you, Sean Downs. Enjoy. Well,

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Sean, I want to start by saying thank you so,

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so much to Oak McCulloch, our mutual friend for

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making this connection. And then I want to welcome

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you onto the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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All right. Well, thank you. It's an honor to

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be here. And it's really an honor that Oak felt

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enough of me to share my name with you. Likewise.

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Likewise. So let's very first question. Where

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on planet Earth are we finding you this afternoon?

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You are finding me at home in St. Mary's County,

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which is the southernmost county in Maryland,

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surrounded by water. A good way to decompress

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when you leave work. Brilliant. I said this shows

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you how tired I am. We're going to talk about

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sea deprivation. It is morning time here at the

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moment. I just said this afternoon. So there

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we go. All right. Well, let's start at the very

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beginning of your timeline. So tell me where

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you were born and tell me a little bit about

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your family dynamic, what your parents did, how

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many siblings. Okay. So I was born right here

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in St. Mary's County at Leonardtown Hospital,

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and I currently live in Leonardtown, Maryland.

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So I haven't made it far. I grew up in a broken

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home, if you will. My parents divorced when I

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was really young. And I think that's important

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because a lot of what I'm going to say about

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my childhood, I think is very common amongst.

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Public safety individuals, police, fire, EMS,

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military, whatever the case may be. It's just

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this really weird thing that I've come to realize

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that a lot of us that had troubles growing up

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seemingly end up in careers where we're helping

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others. So I don't know if there's a connection

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there or not. But anyway, so my mom was a just

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a. a general worker. She worked for a microphone

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company for a while. She ran an in -home daycare

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for a while, things like that. My dad really

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never did anything. When I was growing up, he

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suffered from a lot of mental health issues,

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and he was just kind of in and out of my life,

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if you will. But I did have a couple of family

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members that were in the fire service, and my

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grandfather was a sheriff right here in the county

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that I grew up in. So there was that ounce of

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public safety connection, though if you would

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have asked me when I was younger if this is what

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I would end up doing, the answer would have been

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a hard no. My plan was... After high school,

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I was going to go to Frostburg. I was going to

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play football. I was going to major in history

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and I was going to come back and I was going

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to teach American history in high school. That's

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what I wanted to do. That obviously did not happen.

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So what ended up happening was in high school.

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I was headed that direction. Everything was going

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great until my senior year. My senior year of

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high school, my father ended up committing suicide.

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And the only thing I really, really remember

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about my dad is him always saying, hey, you should

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go in the Marine Corps. You should go in the

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Marine Corps. You'd make an awesome Marine. On

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and on and on. So I abandoned all college. Everything.

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My hopes, my dreams, everything else. And I enlisted

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in the United States Marine Corps at 17 years

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old. And I spent about a minute and a half in

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the Marine Corps. My career was cut very short.

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I found myself back home. And I had been volunteering

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at the firehouse for a couple of years. In fact,

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I was living in the volunteer firehouse when...

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when I left for the Marine Corps. And I came

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back and I was working on PAX River Naval Air

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Station. I was testing aircraft as to how they

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react to electromagnetic waves and radar frequencies,

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which are, it's a pretty cool thing if you ever

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look it up. You can shut an entire aircraft down

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mid -flight if you hit it with the right frequency

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at the right angle at the right time. And that's

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pretty scary, right? So it was a really interesting

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job. So another thing that happened there right

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out of high school and coming home was I ended

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up getting someone pregnant. It was my first

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child, obviously. At 19 years old, he was born,

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and life sped up really quickly. Still volunteering.

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By this point, I was an officer in the volunteer

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firehouse, but really still didn't have that

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deep, burning desire to do it for a career. It

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was fun. I just... I don't know. It didn't seem

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like something that I thought I wanted to do,

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which is odd, right? Like a lot of people that

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volunteer and a lot of people that grow up down

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here, they're chasing this dream. And that just

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wasn't a dream of mine. I just wanted to be successful.

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I didn't care what it was. I wanted to break

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the cycle of what I was born into and I wanted

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to be successful. That all changed when DC opened

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up their hiring for the first time in three years.

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When I found that out, me and a buddy of mine

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rode up to the city the night before they were

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accepting applications, and we literally slept

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behind a firehouse. And we were number 80 and

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81 in line, so it wasn't like we were the only

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ones doing this. So, lo and behold, submitted

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my application, took a written exam, and when

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the written exam results came back, I actually

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called DCHR asking if they made a mistake. I

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don't think that I'm... dumb by any means, but

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to place 32, I think, out of over 3 ,000 people

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testing, like I was, no, that's not me. I'm sorry.

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But sure enough, they did not make a mistake.

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So I was in the first recruit class on that list.

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Again, still raising my oldest boy and everything

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else, still volunteering. Took a break from volunteering

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while I was in the academy and through my probation,

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of course. I fell in love with it. I mean, honestly,

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I'll stop right here and say that my first day

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in the academy, we had to stand up and we had

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to say, you know, why we're here, et cetera,

00:11:14.509 --> 00:11:16.870
et cetera. And I honestly remember saying I'm

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here to provide the best life I can for my son.

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You know, it wasn't I'm here because this is

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a lifelong dream. It wasn't, you know, I'm going

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to change the world or it was this was an opportunity

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for me to enter into a career that. I already

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really liked and I thought I could fall in love

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with. And that's exactly what happened. I mean,

00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:42.559
when I got hired, I had this plan, so to speak.

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I was going to make captain at some point in

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my career and I was going to retire a captain.

00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:50.799
Well, that's out the window because I made. deputy

00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:53.740
chief with, I think, 18 years on, right? So everything

00:11:53.740 --> 00:11:56.899
else got compressed forward. And the reason it

00:11:56.899 --> 00:11:59.580
did is because I ended up falling in love with

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the job. I ended up falling in love with my city.

00:12:02.100 --> 00:12:04.879
I ended up falling in love with everything that

00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:10.259
the fire service truly is, especially in an urban

00:12:10.259 --> 00:12:14.039
environment like Washington, D .C. I cannot compare

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it to anywhere else I've ever seen. I know that

00:12:17.240 --> 00:12:20.990
all the time that I volunteered down here, Cumulatively,

00:12:21.190 --> 00:12:24.210
you throw it together, it's 26 years, and I bet

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I do more in one year in Washington, D .C. than

00:12:27.090 --> 00:12:30.610
I have those 26 years combined down here. And

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there was something about that that I just absolutely

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loved. Not to mention, you're protecting the

00:12:36.110 --> 00:12:39.049
nation's capital. And I really don't care at

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the end of the day what someone's political views

00:12:40.889 --> 00:12:43.309
are. I don't care what their worldviews are.

00:12:43.389 --> 00:12:46.730
I don't care. It's pretty awesome to work in

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Washington, D .C. and protect that city, right?

00:12:48.950 --> 00:12:50.909
No matter who's in the White House, it's pretty

00:12:50.909 --> 00:12:53.070
awesome. No matter who's in Congress, it's pretty

00:12:53.070 --> 00:12:56.029
awesome. There are highs, there are lows. But

00:12:56.029 --> 00:12:58.029
at the end of the day, you are the ones that

00:12:58.029 --> 00:13:02.330
are. responsible for the 720 ,000 residents and

00:13:02.330 --> 00:13:05.529
the 1 .5 million daytime population that comes

00:13:05.529 --> 00:13:09.090
into that city to work and or visit. And I fell

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in love with it. Like I said, I rose up through

00:13:11.009 --> 00:13:13.490
the ranks really quick, became a sergeant with

00:13:13.490 --> 00:13:15.730
seven years on the job, a lieutenant with nine,

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a captain with 11, a battalion chief with 15,

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and then a deputy at 18. I'm now at 22, and I'm

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a deputy, and I'm perfectly content right there.

00:13:28.269 --> 00:13:30.370
You know, there's really only one more stop to

00:13:30.370 --> 00:13:33.830
make, and that's the assistant. But after four

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years of serving in the health and safety division

00:13:35.730 --> 00:13:38.769
and working Monday through Friday and doing all

00:13:38.769 --> 00:13:41.129
of that to be back in operations and shift work,

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I'm okay. Three years to go, like, I'm okay right

00:13:44.529 --> 00:13:50.809
where I'm at. So, yeah, that pretty much covers,

00:13:51.009 --> 00:13:55.529
like, the career quickly. Now, a little bit personally

00:13:55.529 --> 00:13:57.429
about me through the years, I've collected some

00:13:57.429 --> 00:14:00.450
other kids somewhere along the way. I think I

00:14:00.450 --> 00:14:02.289
went to Toys R Us or something and just started

00:14:02.289 --> 00:14:06.250
picking them up. But no, honestly, I did. I had

00:14:06.250 --> 00:14:09.490
three boys with my first wife. We went our separate

00:14:09.490 --> 00:14:13.690
ways back in 2012. And I met my wife now. And

00:14:13.690 --> 00:14:16.850
I've got two amazing stepkids. Unfortunately,

00:14:17.149 --> 00:14:19.429
one of them did pass away earlier this year.

00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:22.779
You know, he's still mine, whether he's here

00:14:22.779 --> 00:14:26.519
or not. But my kids are all to the point now

00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:29.580
where they're spreading their wings. My biological

00:14:29.580 --> 00:14:31.840
oldest boy went to college, played football,

00:14:32.059 --> 00:14:34.279
did all those, majored in history. Really weird,

00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:36.879
right? Came back, was a history teacher, did

00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:39.700
it for one year and decided that's not for him,

00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:42.480
but that's okay. He's still plugging along. The

00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:45.299
middle one is currently in the Army. He's stationed

00:14:45.299 --> 00:14:48.500
at Fort Drum, New York, in the 10th Mountain

00:14:48.500 --> 00:14:52.120
Division. And his dream is really rappelling

00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:54.240
out of helicopters or down the side. of a mountain

00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:56.460
and going after bad guys. That's all he wants

00:14:56.460 --> 00:14:59.779
to do. And then the baby, he just graduated,

00:14:59.960 --> 00:15:02.059
so he's not a baby anymore, but he's my baby.

00:15:02.919 --> 00:15:06.240
He's working probably 55 hours a week right now,

00:15:06.419 --> 00:15:08.860
toying with the idea of maybe taking a couple

00:15:08.860 --> 00:15:10.840
of college classes, but he knows he does not

00:15:10.840 --> 00:15:14.899
want to go away to college. So, yeah. And my

00:15:14.899 --> 00:15:19.279
daughter is doing great. She's 17. She's special

00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:23.669
needs as well. But we have a pretty... active

00:15:23.669 --> 00:15:26.509
life still i thought parenting was over at 18

00:15:26.509 --> 00:15:28.470
and that's not the truth that's when it gets

00:15:28.470 --> 00:15:32.289
really difficult actually so all of you young

00:15:32.289 --> 00:15:35.309
parents out there that you've got 18 as your

00:15:35.309 --> 00:15:42.149
end goal sorry it's lifelong yeah absolutely

00:15:42.149 --> 00:15:45.789
yeah my uh my youngest i've got a stepson who's

00:15:45.789 --> 00:15:49.950
20 how old is he now 24 And then my son with

00:15:49.950 --> 00:15:53.230
my first marriage is about to turn 18. So yeah,

00:15:53.289 --> 00:15:56.730
I can relate. I mean, it's not harder for those

00:15:56.730 --> 00:15:58.850
two, but yeah, it's a transition because now

00:15:58.850 --> 00:16:00.929
they're going from the child that you just tell

00:16:00.929 --> 00:16:03.070
them, hey, do this thing and they do it to you

00:16:03.070 --> 00:16:04.710
have to take a step back. And this is another

00:16:04.710 --> 00:16:07.509
man now. So being that parent, being present

00:16:07.509 --> 00:16:10.730
for them is absolutely imperative, but the communication

00:16:10.730 --> 00:16:13.149
has to shift. You can't tell them what to do

00:16:13.149 --> 00:16:16.740
anymore. Nope. And I think that that's the amazing

00:16:16.740 --> 00:16:19.799
thing about having three young men is they call

00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:22.419
me for advice, which is great. My oldest boy,

00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:24.779
when he was in college, more than one time called

00:16:24.779 --> 00:16:27.080
me saying he needed a ride home. He had a little

00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:29.860
bit too much to drink, you know. So somewhere

00:16:29.860 --> 00:16:33.029
along the way, I got that right. My middle one,

00:16:33.090 --> 00:16:35.629
the one that's in the Army, is currently at Fort

00:16:35.629 --> 00:16:38.929
Polk in Louisiana doing some JRTC training for

00:16:38.929 --> 00:16:42.850
his first deployment. And this morning, 5 .15

00:16:42.850 --> 00:16:44.429
this morning, he texted me because they're getting

00:16:44.429 --> 00:16:46.110
ready to go out in the field for two weeks and

00:16:46.110 --> 00:16:47.610
he won't have his phone, you know. And it was

00:16:47.610 --> 00:16:49.370
just, I love you, pops. I'm going to miss you.

00:16:49.529 --> 00:16:53.350
I'll talk to you in a couple weeks. All the tragedies

00:16:53.350 --> 00:16:55.610
that you've mentioned as far as, you know, losing

00:16:55.610 --> 00:16:57.710
your father, losing your sister, losing a child.

00:16:57.809 --> 00:17:01.929
I mean, these are... Just these kind of death

00:17:01.929 --> 00:17:03.809
by a thousand cuts, but I would argue obviously

00:17:03.809 --> 00:17:06.089
some of those were much larger cuts. But this

00:17:06.089 --> 00:17:08.710
ripple effect that you're worried about from,

00:17:08.829 --> 00:17:11.650
as you said, your father, your sister's side,

00:17:11.750 --> 00:17:16.309
it's interesting now with epigenetics, like with

00:17:16.309 --> 00:17:18.289
alcoholism, with some of these other things.

00:17:19.109 --> 00:17:22.670
you know, the neuroplasticity can occur if there

00:17:22.670 --> 00:17:25.190
is this kind of multi -generational trauma, you

00:17:25.190 --> 00:17:27.089
know, and then, you know, one person grows up

00:17:27.089 --> 00:17:28.869
around alcoholism and they become an alcoholic,

00:17:28.970 --> 00:17:31.529
for example, and I think it's the same, you know,

00:17:31.569 --> 00:17:33.690
with depression, you know, leading to these mental

00:17:33.690 --> 00:17:36.630
health crises. But I'm optimistic when you're

00:17:36.630 --> 00:17:38.190
worried about, you know, you said yourself and

00:17:38.190 --> 00:17:41.599
your children. That when you identify that, when

00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:44.299
you do the work, when you're, you know, luckily

00:17:44.299 --> 00:17:47.279
empowered that you're living in 2025 and there

00:17:47.279 --> 00:17:50.660
are these solutions around that just simply weren't

00:17:50.660 --> 00:17:54.680
around, you know, 10, 15, 20 years ago. I think

00:17:54.680 --> 00:17:57.420
that's exactly how you change those genetics

00:17:57.420 --> 00:17:59.680
as well, because once you do your own healing,

00:17:59.819 --> 00:18:03.119
I truly believe that even your DNA starts changing.

00:18:04.220 --> 00:18:09.279
I agree. I agree. And I think that. Another thing

00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:11.839
that helps me personally is the fact that I've

00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:14.880
latched on to psychology in general. While that's

00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:17.799
not what my degree is in, the majority of my

00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:22.259
electives through the years were psychology -based.

00:18:22.500 --> 00:18:26.859
My wife has a degree in psychology. Obviously,

00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:29.880
the last four years in the district, that has

00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:33.960
been one of the biggest things that Myself, along

00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:36.319
with my team, worked on was building out our

00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:38.500
entire behavioral health program. And it's all

00:18:38.500 --> 00:18:40.880
for those things right there. It's teaching people

00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:43.640
to have this conversation right here and just

00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:46.700
talk about it. Right. Like if I had cancer a

00:18:46.700 --> 00:18:49.079
couple of years ago, skin cancer on my on my

00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:53.519
head, I talked about it. It wasn't I mean, it

00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:55.420
wasn't something that was fun to go through,

00:18:55.480 --> 00:18:57.890
but I talked about it because. In case anyone

00:18:57.890 --> 00:19:00.130
else had something similar happening, they may

00:19:00.130 --> 00:19:02.410
go to a dermatologist and find out, you know,

00:19:02.430 --> 00:19:05.269
what's going on. Same thing with the behavioral

00:19:05.269 --> 00:19:08.809
health, mental health aspect of life. I openly

00:19:08.809 --> 00:19:10.950
talk about it. A lot of fire service leaders,

00:19:11.089 --> 00:19:14.130
I believe, are hesitant to, especially when they

00:19:14.130 --> 00:19:17.349
themselves are the ones that had to endure these

00:19:17.349 --> 00:19:22.559
things. I think that what we're seeing now as

00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:25.900
we're getting into, you know, towards 2030, a

00:19:25.900 --> 00:19:29.480
whole new generation, a whole new decade, is

00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:33.059
we're seeing more and more open response to those

00:19:33.059 --> 00:19:35.720
types of conversations. And I'm going to keep

00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:38.039
having them. If I have them and somebody wants

00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:40.180
to weaponize it and use it against me, that's

00:19:40.180 --> 00:19:42.680
their problem. That's not mine. But if I'm having

00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:44.539
these conversations and I get through to one

00:19:44.539 --> 00:19:47.880
person and. it causes them to speak to someone

00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:50.680
before they get to that point or recognize the

00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:54.319
signs before it gets to that point, then I'm

00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:57.779
OK with that. Well, this is what's interesting,

00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:00.259
going back to what you said about, you know,

00:20:00.259 --> 00:20:02.480
the challenges you have when you were young,

00:20:02.539 --> 00:20:04.559
leading you into uniform and seeing that in so

00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:07.240
many of us is that absolutely is a thing. And,

00:20:07.299 --> 00:20:10.099
you know, our profession hasn't done a very good.

00:20:10.430 --> 00:20:13.309
job of, for example, talking about the ACEs,

00:20:13.349 --> 00:20:17.430
the Adverse Childhood Experience scores, where

00:20:17.430 --> 00:20:20.630
when you look at the research, a lot of first

00:20:20.630 --> 00:20:24.190
responders and military members have six and

00:20:24.190 --> 00:20:27.230
above out of 10, as do a lot of incarcerated

00:20:27.230 --> 00:20:30.930
men and women. So those struggles can lead you,

00:20:30.950 --> 00:20:33.809
depending on the mentorship that you hit along

00:20:33.809 --> 00:20:38.099
the way, to a bad path. You know, alcoholism,

00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:40.400
addiction, you know, crime, et cetera, or it

00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:42.640
can leave you lead you into the military, the

00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:44.619
first responder, which may again lead you to

00:20:44.619 --> 00:20:46.920
those other bad ones later. But, you know, you're

00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:49.559
now wanting to be the protector. You're building

00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:51.440
an armor around yourself. You don't want people

00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:53.799
to feel the suffering that you felt. So they're

00:20:53.799 --> 00:20:56.740
for all the best reasons that we go into uniform.

00:20:57.079 --> 00:20:59.819
But having that conversation at the front door

00:20:59.819 --> 00:21:01.880
saying there's a good chance that the reason

00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:03.779
you're here is because of stuff that happened

00:21:03.779 --> 00:21:06.640
when you were younger. in my opinion rather than

00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:09.160
just doing a psych screen like an mmpi which

00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:11.920
we all know now or at least i know through all

00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:13.859
the psychologists and psychiatrists have asked

00:21:13.859 --> 00:21:16.920
was never meant to be a standalone test to deem

00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:20.619
someone um ready to be a first responder but

00:21:20.619 --> 00:21:22.259
instead saying all right well we're going to

00:21:22.259 --> 00:21:25.660
do pt from day one let's do mental pt as well

00:21:25.660 --> 00:21:27.880
let's give you x amount of counseling sessions

00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:31.059
as you enter so that we can start working through

00:21:31.059 --> 00:21:35.460
whatever you brought into the job I agree. I

00:21:35.460 --> 00:21:40.660
think that we, again, we as a service, I'm not

00:21:40.660 --> 00:21:42.180
going to say Washington, D .C., I'm just going

00:21:42.180 --> 00:21:48.839
to say we as a service, still are hesitant to

00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:52.900
accept. Exactly what you're saying. And that's

00:21:52.900 --> 00:21:56.259
what leads a lot of us to it. And when our people

00:21:56.259 --> 00:21:59.500
come in, we focus on all the things that they're

00:21:59.500 --> 00:22:01.680
going to see. And we talk about those things

00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:04.160
and all that. But you're right. I don't think

00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:06.660
that we address the elephant in the room, which

00:22:06.660 --> 00:22:08.539
is the baggage that they came on the job with.

00:22:08.700 --> 00:22:11.880
And then unfortunately, what ends up happening,

00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:15.519
and I've seen this, is that the cumulative stress

00:22:15.519 --> 00:22:18.059
of life and then everything that you're going

00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:22.099
through as someone with a badge on your chest,

00:22:22.259 --> 00:22:27.420
then when you break, the first thing I've seen

00:22:27.420 --> 00:22:30.380
organizations say is, well, they came into this

00:22:30.380 --> 00:22:33.140
with these issues. Well, yeah, they did. That's

00:22:33.140 --> 00:22:34.819
why they came here to do the job in the first

00:22:34.819 --> 00:22:36.660
place. Let's not turn our back on them because

00:22:36.660 --> 00:22:40.579
of that. So, yeah, we still have a long way to

00:22:40.579 --> 00:22:43.619
go, I think. Well, I think where the message

00:22:43.619 --> 00:22:47.420
is being completely mixed is, or distorted, should

00:22:47.420 --> 00:22:50.430
I say, is people... have the impression that

00:22:50.430 --> 00:22:53.869
you, me and another, you know, 3000 people are

00:22:53.869 --> 00:22:55.869
testing to this job and we get down to where

00:22:55.869 --> 00:22:58.130
they do the screening and they're like, all right,

00:22:58.150 --> 00:23:00.390
well, let's make sure that James and Sean don't

00:23:00.390 --> 00:23:02.049
come in with issues. So we're going to do the

00:23:02.049 --> 00:23:05.430
screen versus switching the mentality completely

00:23:05.430 --> 00:23:08.170
where you've done, you know, the background check,

00:23:08.230 --> 00:23:10.609
the physical, the written, you know, the, you

00:23:10.609 --> 00:23:12.670
know, the combat challenge, whatever it is. And

00:23:12.670 --> 00:23:14.410
now we're down to this and I, okay, these are

00:23:14.410 --> 00:23:16.470
two recruits that have proven themselves to be

00:23:16.470 --> 00:23:21.079
worthy. let's have this conversation where we

00:23:21.079 --> 00:23:23.039
are going to turn those struggles into strength

00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:25.400
and that whole post -traumatic growth conversation,

00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:28.059
because it is very doom and gloom. Well, you

00:23:28.059 --> 00:23:30.759
know, Sean has had this experience and now he's

00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:32.960
struggling with depression or James is, you know,

00:23:32.980 --> 00:23:35.839
riddled with anxiety because of whatever, rather

00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:38.619
than, all right, you had some shit happen. But

00:23:38.619 --> 00:23:40.960
when we help find the tools that will work you

00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:43.559
through it, those struggles become strength.

00:23:44.220 --> 00:23:47.359
And now you become more resilient and more compassionate

00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:49.599
and empathetic in this job. And you will become

00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:51.519
an asset because you've been through some shit.

00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:55.180
But the difference is giving people the tools

00:23:55.180 --> 00:23:57.299
and helping them work through it the same way

00:23:57.299 --> 00:23:59.740
as if someone comes in and they've got, you know,

00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:03.640
a bit of a bum shoulder or back. You don't just,

00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:05.740
you know, put them through something, break them

00:24:05.740 --> 00:24:07.559
and say, right, sorry, you're out. You go, OK,

00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:10.299
let's do. PT, let's do physical therapy. Let's

00:24:10.299 --> 00:24:12.880
help you work through that injury. So now you're

00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:15.059
less likely to break. You're stronger than you

00:24:15.059 --> 00:24:21.279
ever were before. Agreed. Agreed. All right.

00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:23.700
Well, then you mentioned about, you know, 26

00:24:23.700 --> 00:24:26.839
years of volunteering. Talk to me about 9 -11.

00:24:26.980 --> 00:24:28.839
That wasn't too far away from you, obviously.

00:24:29.140 --> 00:24:31.420
What was that day like through your eyes and

00:24:31.420 --> 00:24:33.880
how did it impact your journey in the fire service?

00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:38.539
So, that's interesting, because I shipped out

00:24:38.539 --> 00:24:41.720
for the Marine Corps September 11th of 2000,

00:24:42.039 --> 00:24:45.660
so a year to the day. However, I was back home

00:24:45.660 --> 00:24:51.420
by September 11th of 2001. It was before I got

00:24:51.420 --> 00:24:55.559
hired on base, so I was volunteering. I think

00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:58.400
I was a lieutenant at the time, but I was working

00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:04.220
with my uncle -in -law at the time. tower hit

00:25:04.220 --> 00:25:06.940
or when the first plane hit the first tower he

00:25:06.940 --> 00:25:09.839
came out to the bay to get me he was like hey

00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:11.400
man you got to watch this and i was standing

00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:14.039
there watching it when the second one hit and

00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:16.680
my first thought was i just wanted to be back

00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:19.160
in the marine corps i wanted to go take care

00:25:19.160 --> 00:25:21.779
of whoever did this um in a way that i probably

00:25:21.779 --> 00:25:25.500
shouldn't say on this podcast And then as the

00:25:25.500 --> 00:25:27.920
rest of the events unfolded that day, I mean,

00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:29.960
we sat there. We were close enough to Andrews

00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:32.559
that we heard the F -16s take off when they were

00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:35.259
attempting to intercept what ended up being United

00:25:35.259 --> 00:25:42.339
Flight 93. And it was just surreal. I mean, you

00:25:42.339 --> 00:25:44.539
could walk outside from the shop that I was working

00:25:44.539 --> 00:25:46.380
in and you could see the smoke from the Pentagon.

00:25:46.900 --> 00:25:49.240
It was obviously a couple of years before I came

00:25:49.240 --> 00:25:51.920
on the job in Washington, D .C., but it doesn't

00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:56.089
mean that it affected me any less. um back home

00:25:56.089 --> 00:25:59.730
at the volunteer firehouse and then just in the

00:25:59.730 --> 00:26:03.109
community i think one of the greatest things

00:26:03.109 --> 00:26:08.230
that i saw amongst all that tragedy was finally

00:26:08.230 --> 00:26:11.990
finally finally america was starting to recognize

00:26:11.990 --> 00:26:17.369
what police fire military and all do for this

00:26:17.369 --> 00:26:20.089
country it was like the very first time that

00:26:20.089 --> 00:26:27.049
in my life i could recall I don't want to say

00:26:27.049 --> 00:26:29.150
us being heroes, right? Like, I don't want to

00:26:29.150 --> 00:26:32.089
be someone's hero. I just don't want you to chastise

00:26:32.089 --> 00:26:34.950
me for what I do or my guys or whatever the case

00:26:34.950 --> 00:26:39.970
may be. And that was amazing. I think that rather

00:26:39.970 --> 00:26:43.630
I realized at the time, subconsciously, that

00:26:43.630 --> 00:26:46.789
was the moment I began to say, this is what I

00:26:46.789 --> 00:26:50.589
want to do for my life. This is. you know, the

00:26:50.589 --> 00:26:53.990
path that I want to go down. And again, two short

00:26:53.990 --> 00:26:57.190
years later, I was hired in D .C. and the rest

00:26:57.190 --> 00:27:01.650
is history. But I still think back to that day.

00:27:01.690 --> 00:27:03.049
It's hard to believe it's been almost a quarter

00:27:03.049 --> 00:27:07.250
century ago. I know I will personally never forget

00:27:07.250 --> 00:27:10.869
that. I will never forget what it meant. I do.

00:27:11.089 --> 00:27:13.730
It does break my heart to see the way the country

00:27:13.730 --> 00:27:19.119
has gone the last 10 or 15 years with. with the

00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:25.359
seemingly hatred towards law enforcement um thankfully

00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:28.819
that has not spilled over into us but obviously

00:27:28.819 --> 00:27:30.480
there are a lot of people in this country that

00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:33.559
are anti -military still and and things of that

00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:35.599
nature and i have to admit that it's heartbreaking

00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:38.480
and while i don't long for another september

00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:41.299
11th uh by any means no stretch of the imagination

00:27:41.299 --> 00:27:46.089
i do long for a day where America can come together

00:27:46.089 --> 00:27:48.990
like it did then, because I really think that's

00:27:48.990 --> 00:27:52.569
what America's about. This is a conversation

00:27:52.569 --> 00:27:54.630
I've had with a few people recently, and I'm

00:27:54.630 --> 00:27:57.349
hoping, we're talking grandiose plans now, I'm

00:27:57.349 --> 00:27:59.809
making my book into a show, and I hope this is

00:27:59.809 --> 00:28:02.069
one of the things that contributes to exactly

00:28:02.069 --> 00:28:06.200
that. We should not need a tragedy. to bring

00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:08.839
us back together again. What we need is an awakening.

00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:11.579
An awakening happens when you've been given all

00:28:11.579 --> 00:28:13.980
these pigeonholes and these people are black

00:28:13.980 --> 00:28:15.380
and these people are gay or these people are

00:28:15.380 --> 00:28:18.940
cops or whatever it is. And then something catastrophic

00:28:18.940 --> 00:28:21.819
happens in multiple cities in the States and

00:28:21.819 --> 00:28:24.099
you realize that you're all just humans. And

00:28:24.099 --> 00:28:28.579
you saw in 9 -11, you saw 7 -7 in London, the

00:28:28.579 --> 00:28:32.319
Grenfell fire, where mosques and temples and

00:28:32.319 --> 00:28:35.869
churches and all these humans. All colors and

00:28:35.869 --> 00:28:37.829
creeds were coming together because they realized,

00:28:38.069 --> 00:28:40.509
again, that they were all American, they were

00:28:40.509 --> 00:28:43.150
all British, whatever the thing was. And I think

00:28:43.150 --> 00:28:46.029
this is, I believe, and this is my own personal

00:28:46.029 --> 00:28:48.029
opinion, that the kind of cracks are starting

00:28:48.029 --> 00:28:52.150
to show in the many areas that have divided us,

00:28:52.230 --> 00:28:54.890
the areas that span both political sides of the

00:28:54.890 --> 00:28:58.490
aisle, for example, the corruption in business

00:28:58.490 --> 00:29:01.309
and healthcare and all these different things.

00:29:01.450 --> 00:29:03.589
And I think people are starting to see it now.

00:29:03.710 --> 00:29:07.099
So I hope... that the next time that we see these

00:29:07.099 --> 00:29:10.019
nations coming together, it isn't because of

00:29:10.019 --> 00:29:12.480
a tragedy, that we can get ahead of that and

00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:16.680
come together before another tragedy. I agree

00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:19.079
wholeheartedly. And you said something in there

00:29:19.079 --> 00:29:23.000
that is one of my passions. It's one of the things,

00:29:23.079 --> 00:29:25.640
one of my talking points, I guess, any time I

00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:28.579
have the opportunity to say this. And you said

00:29:28.579 --> 00:29:32.039
we're all human. That's exactly it. No matter

00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:33.980
what your religious background is, no matter

00:29:33.980 --> 00:29:36.019
who you call God, or if you don't believe there's

00:29:36.019 --> 00:29:37.859
anything greater than you, at the end of the

00:29:37.859 --> 00:29:40.500
day, you can look at someone else and say, they're

00:29:40.500 --> 00:29:43.940
the exact same type of being as I am. What's

00:29:43.940 --> 00:29:46.099
it matter what they look like? Do you hate the

00:29:46.099 --> 00:29:49.960
orange and white cat, but love the brown and,

00:29:50.039 --> 00:29:53.819
I don't know, gray cat? Because at the end of

00:29:53.819 --> 00:29:56.230
the day, that's really what we're saying. Right.

00:29:56.289 --> 00:29:58.690
Is because of someone's appearance or because

00:29:58.690 --> 00:30:01.150
of where they're from or because of who they

00:30:01.150 --> 00:30:03.470
choose to be in a relationship with that you're

00:30:03.470 --> 00:30:07.829
going to hate them. And I just I cannot get behind

00:30:07.829 --> 00:30:11.329
that on any level. Like I can never understand

00:30:11.329 --> 00:30:14.369
it in my heart and it breaks my heart to see

00:30:14.369 --> 00:30:18.579
so much of it. Absolutely. Well, I'm, I've said

00:30:18.579 --> 00:30:21.099
this so many times on here, an angry yet incurable

00:30:21.099 --> 00:30:23.880
optimist. And I believe that, you know, you pull

00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:26.079
out aggressively the people that are the root

00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:28.779
of the problem. But, you know, I do believe that

00:30:28.779 --> 00:30:31.160
that middle 80 % is going to have an awakening

00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:33.480
now. There's going to be those two on the extremes

00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:36.259
of 10 % that, you know, come hell or high water

00:30:36.259 --> 00:30:38.519
will die on their sword for their favorite, you

00:30:38.519 --> 00:30:40.799
know, political figure or whatever it is, you

00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:43.980
know, racist cause. The 80 percent in the middle,

00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:45.960
I believe, are really starting to have, you know,

00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:47.900
have their eyes opened again. And I think there's

00:30:47.900 --> 00:30:51.460
going to be a revolution, but a nonviolent revolution

00:30:51.460 --> 00:30:54.400
of kindness, compassion and community. So I'm

00:30:54.400 --> 00:30:57.559
putting it out there. It's begun. And just, you

00:30:57.559 --> 00:31:00.380
know, we need everyone to believe. I think in

00:31:00.380 --> 00:31:04.339
this country, it's going to be. One of the two

00:31:04.339 --> 00:31:06.839
major political parties, or it's going to be

00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:10.599
a totally new party, that comes in and aims for

00:31:10.599 --> 00:31:13.700
that 80%, because I'm with you. I firmly believe

00:31:13.700 --> 00:31:16.799
80 % of the people in this country just want

00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:19.079
to love each other and just want to do a good

00:31:19.079 --> 00:31:21.339
job and just want, you know, to chase that American

00:31:21.339 --> 00:31:24.839
dream. There are extremists in every aspect of

00:31:24.839 --> 00:31:27.680
life, whether it's religion, it's land, it's

00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:31.940
politics, whatever the case may be. And I'm not

00:31:31.940 --> 00:31:34.039
saying I'm not worried about those, but I am

00:31:34.039 --> 00:31:37.299
saying that we greatly outnumber them. And I

00:31:37.299 --> 00:31:41.200
just think that that is the answer. I believe

00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:43.759
that's what you're saying, is we just need something

00:31:43.759 --> 00:31:46.700
that is non -violent, non -catastrophic, non

00:31:46.700 --> 00:31:49.140
-whatever, just to unite us. And I think we'll

00:31:49.140 --> 00:31:53.599
be stronger than ever before. Absolutely. Well,

00:31:53.640 --> 00:31:56.240
let's get back to your on -ramp and to the career

00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:59.099
side then. So, you know, now you're in charge

00:31:59.099 --> 00:32:00.779
of the wellness side. Obviously, you've got this

00:32:00.779 --> 00:32:02.420
great mental health initiative. We're going to

00:32:02.420 --> 00:32:04.279
talk about a lot of those things that you're

00:32:04.279 --> 00:32:07.720
doing today. Contrast that to the environment

00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:09.940
that you walked in. Obviously, different time,

00:32:09.980 --> 00:32:11.819
you know, a lot of, you know, we just weren't

00:32:11.819 --> 00:32:13.839
talking about a lot of things. But what was the

00:32:13.839 --> 00:32:16.019
kind of fitness standards, you know, mental health

00:32:16.019 --> 00:32:18.720
conversation when you entered at the beginning

00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:22.799
of this millennium? Yeah, so I think when I got

00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:27.460
hired, I can honestly say we never spoke about

00:32:27.460 --> 00:32:31.559
mental health. We had critical incident stress

00:32:31.559 --> 00:32:35.680
management if you needed it. But really, the

00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:40.400
only time that was even activated was catastrophic

00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:44.380
incidents, whether it was a line of duty death

00:32:44.380 --> 00:32:46.819
or something like that. We just didn't know,

00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:50.099
or we didn't want to admit it, at least. When

00:32:50.099 --> 00:32:52.079
it came to fitness standards, I can say that

00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:56.759
when I came on the job, on average, the members

00:32:56.759 --> 00:33:00.039
of our organization were just overweight, some

00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:04.920
of them grossly overweight. I wasn't the skinniest

00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:09.079
when I came on the job. And again, like we just

00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:13.839
didn't press fitness. We definitely didn't press.

00:33:14.660 --> 00:33:16.900
talking to each other, though I will go down

00:33:16.900 --> 00:33:19.700
one little rabbit hole and say that we did it.

00:33:20.940 --> 00:33:24.500
And just there wasn't really this heavy emphasis

00:33:24.500 --> 00:33:26.519
in the service in general. I'm not picking on

00:33:26.519 --> 00:33:29.220
Washington, D .C. There wasn't this heavy emphasis

00:33:29.220 --> 00:33:33.799
on safety. What I think happened in the fire

00:33:33.799 --> 00:33:38.720
service is I think cancer is the thing that turned

00:33:39.180 --> 00:33:42.160
our minds on and engaged our minds. And what

00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:46.059
I mean by that is by the mid -2000s, 2005, 2008,

00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:50.359
I think it was beginning to become apparent to

00:33:50.359 --> 00:33:55.240
even the most hardcore, hard -nosed, salty firefighter

00:33:55.240 --> 00:33:57.420
out there that, hey, there's probably a better

00:33:57.420 --> 00:34:00.980
way of doing this stuff after the fire. And I

00:34:00.980 --> 00:34:05.059
think that it was the all -in -one effort. to

00:34:05.059 --> 00:34:08.260
attack cancer that opened our eyes to everything

00:34:08.260 --> 00:34:10.340
else. Rather, it was cardiac, physical fitness,

00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:13.139
mental health, all of these. Because once we

00:34:13.139 --> 00:34:15.599
started admitting that this is something that's

00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:18.860
killing our people, it became easier to admit

00:34:18.860 --> 00:34:23.059
that so was this, so was this, so was this. And

00:34:23.059 --> 00:34:27.960
the funny thing is, is it's not what you're...

00:34:28.190 --> 00:34:30.570
running it's not the incidents you know by and

00:34:30.570 --> 00:34:33.989
large the incidents we do a wonderful job of

00:34:33.989 --> 00:34:36.710
managing i mean we lose 100 firefighters every

00:34:36.710 --> 00:34:39.289
single year and that's catastrophic and that's

00:34:39.289 --> 00:34:42.889
horrible and i want to reduce those numbers but

00:34:42.889 --> 00:34:47.829
statistically that's not horrendous given the

00:34:47.829 --> 00:34:49.989
amount of incidents that we respond to and i

00:34:49.989 --> 00:34:51.789
don't want to minimize any line of duty death

00:34:51.789 --> 00:34:56.340
by what i'm saying What we failed and still fail

00:34:56.340 --> 00:34:58.920
in certain aspects to realize is how many we're

00:34:58.920 --> 00:35:02.340
killing all the other ways. Again, the physical

00:35:02.340 --> 00:35:05.219
fitness, so cardiac, cancer, mental health, et

00:35:05.219 --> 00:35:08.820
cetera. So in Washington, D .C., I think the

00:35:08.820 --> 00:35:13.880
tides began to change when the union began to

00:35:13.880 --> 00:35:17.519
really attack cancer and try to get us presumptive

00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:22.739
legislation. We had a few very, very. outspoken

00:35:22.739 --> 00:35:25.760
individuals thankfully that were battling cancer

00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:31.460
around 2010 2012 that just did not let up they

00:35:31.460 --> 00:35:34.159
just kept you know talking about it forcing it

00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:36.980
talking to the city council about it uh obviously

00:35:36.980 --> 00:35:40.639
talking to the department about it and eventually

00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:44.559
um we got presumptive legislation which i think

00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:48.059
was the first piece of the puzzle Oddly enough,

00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:50.199
that's about the same time I was a captain at

00:35:50.199 --> 00:35:52.300
the time that I got sent to the safety office.

00:35:52.340 --> 00:35:55.159
And my whole job when I went there per the deputy

00:35:55.159 --> 00:35:57.880
chief at the time was to create a cancer reduction

00:35:57.880 --> 00:36:01.840
slash prevention program. And we were able to

00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:03.739
do that for the first time. We were able to have

00:36:03.739 --> 00:36:08.079
classes on, you know, what we're doing. And 90

00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:10.619
percent of the issues still are after the fire's

00:36:10.619 --> 00:36:12.659
out. Right. Like, I think we're pretty safe in

00:36:12.659 --> 00:36:15.059
putting the fire out. It's the dropping our guard

00:36:15.059 --> 00:36:20.070
after that. And it was, you know, preaching wet

00:36:20.070 --> 00:36:23.510
decon on the scene. It was preaching clean gear.

00:36:23.730 --> 00:36:26.849
It was preaching taking a shower, though we still

00:36:26.849 --> 00:36:29.630
had certain hurdles. I mean, in 2016 in Washington,

00:36:29.750 --> 00:36:32.010
D .C., it was unheard of for a unit to go out

00:36:32.010 --> 00:36:34.849
of service following a fire so that they could

00:36:34.849 --> 00:36:37.349
get a shower. The thought process was, and what

00:36:37.349 --> 00:36:39.389
we had always told ourselves, well, we're way

00:36:39.389 --> 00:36:41.409
too busy to go out of service for something like

00:36:41.409 --> 00:36:44.139
that. The conversation that I ended up having

00:36:44.139 --> 00:36:47.079
with an assistant chief that ultimately helped

00:36:47.079 --> 00:36:50.860
me change that was I just asked him, hey, if

00:36:50.860 --> 00:36:52.880
we run a shooting, we have blood all over us.

00:36:52.900 --> 00:36:54.780
You let the guys go out of service to get a shower?

00:36:54.900 --> 00:36:57.400
And the answer is an unequivocal yes. OK, if

00:36:57.400 --> 00:36:59.599
we've run something and they're covered in vomit

00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:02.719
or, you know, feces or anything else, are they

00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:05.219
allowed to go out of service? Yes, that's disgusting.

00:37:05.420 --> 00:37:07.500
Then why can't they for something that we know

00:37:07.500 --> 00:37:09.739
is giving them cancer? And it was that phrase

00:37:09.739 --> 00:37:12.469
right there that began to change. That aspect

00:37:12.469 --> 00:37:16.349
of it. And I'm very proud of the fact that the

00:37:16.349 --> 00:37:18.630
entire division for the next couple of years

00:37:18.630 --> 00:37:22.369
hammered down on that. Through all of that time,

00:37:22.530 --> 00:37:25.110
I was sent back out into operations. I was a

00:37:25.110 --> 00:37:27.550
captain at 15 Engine, ended up getting promoted

00:37:27.550 --> 00:37:30.389
to battalion chief, though they kept pulling

00:37:30.389 --> 00:37:32.570
me back to the safety office every so often on

00:37:32.570 --> 00:37:36.150
these projects. And then we'll fast forward to

00:37:36.150 --> 00:37:40.590
COVID. When COVID happened, I got pulled back

00:37:40.590 --> 00:37:44.349
to the safety office because they basically decimated

00:37:44.349 --> 00:37:48.699
that. entire division to lead or work on incident

00:37:48.699 --> 00:37:51.579
management teams across the city to deal with

00:37:51.579 --> 00:37:55.800
the pandemic. And during those times were when

00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:59.400
we really, really started to hammer down on cardiac

00:37:59.400 --> 00:38:03.260
conversations, fitness conversations, mental

00:38:03.260 --> 00:38:06.440
health conversations. By that point, we had O2X

00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:10.400
as our fitness component in the city. We had

00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:15.329
two Physical trainers then for our 2 ,200 people,

00:38:15.550 --> 00:38:19.889
which obviously. wasn't enough. Our people were

00:38:19.889 --> 00:38:22.150
showing that they wanted to be in better shape.

00:38:22.250 --> 00:38:23.949
They were the ones that were reaching out to

00:38:23.949 --> 00:38:26.650
O2X. They were the ones that were asking, hey,

00:38:26.730 --> 00:38:29.369
can you set me up with a diet plan or a workout

00:38:29.369 --> 00:38:31.989
plan or something like that? And we recognized

00:38:31.989 --> 00:38:36.230
all of that. So going through COVID, on the back

00:38:36.230 --> 00:38:39.230
end of all of that, we were working on policies

00:38:39.230 --> 00:38:42.090
and programs and things to institute as soon

00:38:42.090 --> 00:38:45.449
as we could. Thankfully, as the pandemic you

00:38:45.449 --> 00:38:49.550
know went on um i i ended up getting pulled back

00:38:49.550 --> 00:38:52.530
full time to that office and then ended up getting

00:38:52.530 --> 00:38:55.630
promoted into the the division head position

00:38:55.630 --> 00:38:57.710
which is deputy fire chief of health and safety

00:38:57.710 --> 00:39:01.889
and uh my fire chief told me he was like i don't

00:39:01.889 --> 00:39:03.909
care what it takes i don't care how much it takes

00:39:03.909 --> 00:39:06.349
we need to do something about these things so

00:39:06.349 --> 00:39:07.969
you just tell me what you need and we'll make

00:39:07.969 --> 00:39:11.670
it happen and by and large he stood by his word

00:39:12.699 --> 00:39:16.340
I can't really ever remember a time he told me

00:39:16.340 --> 00:39:19.300
no. There obviously were times where we didn't

00:39:19.300 --> 00:39:22.219
have money in the budget for a huge ask or something.

00:39:22.420 --> 00:39:24.739
But the answer is not no. It's just we need to

00:39:24.739 --> 00:39:29.119
work up to that. But in that time, right, I'm

00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:31.980
going to talk about simply from 2021 till now.

00:39:32.599 --> 00:39:38.429
We have, gosh, we've gone after. Post -incident

00:39:38.429 --> 00:39:40.989
exposures by getting the enforced application

00:39:40.989 --> 00:39:45.949
so that our people can track their own exposures

00:39:45.949 --> 00:39:48.750
to the byproducts of combustion and or any other

00:39:48.750 --> 00:39:53.050
harmful substance on the scene of a call. And

00:39:53.050 --> 00:39:55.829
there's a mental health application within that,

00:39:55.869 --> 00:39:57.650
where every time they've run a traumatic event

00:39:57.650 --> 00:40:00.269
or something, they can just simply log in saying

00:40:00.269 --> 00:40:02.210
they were here. They can choose to write a little

00:40:02.210 --> 00:40:05.030
blurb if they want. But God forbid, 10 years

00:40:05.030 --> 00:40:08.289
from now, when the person just, I don't want

00:40:08.289 --> 00:40:11.210
to say just runs another CPR call, but runs just

00:40:11.210 --> 00:40:13.650
another CPR call, but that's finally the straw

00:40:13.650 --> 00:40:16.579
that breaks the camel's back. The provider isn't

00:40:16.579 --> 00:40:19.199
looking at, well, it was just a CPR call. They're

00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:21.679
looking at these hundreds and hundreds of shootings

00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:24.579
and stabbings and infant CPRs and this and that

00:40:24.579 --> 00:40:26.960
and line of duty deaths or death of an active

00:40:26.960 --> 00:40:29.559
firefighter or whatever the case may be that

00:40:29.559 --> 00:40:32.440
potentially, or we know, I'm not even going to

00:40:32.440 --> 00:40:34.780
say potentially, but all led up to that final

00:40:34.780 --> 00:40:38.119
straw being the one that broke the camel's back.

00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:43.559
enhanced our physical fitness program. Our people

00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:45.539
are now allowed to go out of service to work

00:40:45.539 --> 00:40:49.420
out. I mean, we obviously, we have an understanding

00:40:49.420 --> 00:40:51.840
if there's a fire, if there's somebody not breathing,

00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:54.739
whatever, you hop back in and you go. But for

00:40:54.739 --> 00:40:57.000
the most part, our organization has done a phenomenal

00:40:57.000 --> 00:41:00.260
job of getting our people out of service so they

00:41:00.260 --> 00:41:03.800
can do those things. After a fire, we identified

00:41:03.800 --> 00:41:06.369
the units that were operating inside the structure

00:41:06.369 --> 00:41:08.469
and they're ordered to go out of service they

00:41:08.469 --> 00:41:10.809
go back to the firehouse they take a shower they

00:41:10.809 --> 00:41:12.590
put on a clean uniform they put their second

00:41:12.590 --> 00:41:15.909
set of gear in service um all these things that

00:41:15.909 --> 00:41:19.909
are now common sense that were just unheard of

00:41:19.909 --> 00:41:23.949
a decade ago um I mean, there's so much more,

00:41:24.030 --> 00:41:26.510
the behavioral health aspect of it. We hired

00:41:26.510 --> 00:41:28.449
a behavioral health coordinator a couple of years

00:41:28.449 --> 00:41:33.530
ago, and she has done a phenomenal job at working

00:41:33.530 --> 00:41:35.730
with our peer support team, which is almost 100

00:41:35.730 --> 00:41:39.429
people, and providing services for our people.

00:41:40.989 --> 00:41:44.690
Never more was that prevalent than the airplane

00:41:44.690 --> 00:41:47.590
crash back in January. That's an incident that

00:41:47.590 --> 00:41:50.400
will stick with our members. for the rest of

00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:53.280
their lives and that was a multi -day incident

00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:56.059
so it's not even like it was just one platoon

00:41:56.059 --> 00:41:59.260
that was affected by that it was all four platoons

00:41:59.260 --> 00:42:02.079
plus day work individuals and everyone else regional

00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:04.940
partners but again having our behavioral health

00:42:04.940 --> 00:42:08.980
program in place having systems in place to get

00:42:08.980 --> 00:42:13.400
resources to our people quickly and then know

00:42:13.400 --> 00:42:15.619
to follow up on those like if you would have

00:42:15.619 --> 00:42:21.530
asked me um I don't know, five years ago, what's

00:42:21.530 --> 00:42:23.550
the best way to follow up after these traumatic

00:42:23.550 --> 00:42:25.170
events? I would have been like, oh, you just,

00:42:25.210 --> 00:42:26.750
you know, you make a phone call, blah, blah,

00:42:26.809 --> 00:42:28.289
blah, blah. I had no idea, you know, the whole

00:42:28.289 --> 00:42:31.449
three weeks or three days, three weeks, three

00:42:31.449 --> 00:42:35.449
months. I didn't know that 30 days is about what

00:42:35.449 --> 00:42:38.010
it took to officially diagnose with someone with

00:42:38.010 --> 00:42:41.449
PTSD if they weren't beginning to show signs

00:42:41.449 --> 00:42:45.210
of vast improvement and things. like that. Those

00:42:45.210 --> 00:42:47.309
are all things that she brought to our organization

00:42:47.309 --> 00:42:50.929
and brought to our attention and helped us realize,

00:42:51.190 --> 00:42:54.769
recognize, and put these programs in place. There

00:42:54.769 --> 00:42:57.710
are so much more, man. We've completely redesigned

00:42:57.710 --> 00:43:00.150
our personal protective equipment. I feel we

00:43:00.150 --> 00:43:02.530
have what is the absolute best available on the

00:43:02.530 --> 00:43:05.429
market right now for our people. We've redesigned

00:43:05.429 --> 00:43:09.510
apparatus to include 360 -degree cameras. We

00:43:09.510 --> 00:43:12.090
have the Haas Alert system in our apparatus,

00:43:12.289 --> 00:43:16.800
which has We essentially net zeroed our responder

00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:21.119
and responder crashes. We had just a horrible

00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:23.480
couple of years where we had fire trucks or fire

00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:25.639
trucks and ambulances crashing in intersections.

00:43:25.980 --> 00:43:29.320
We found the Haas alert system. We worked with

00:43:29.320 --> 00:43:31.880
Corey Hose and Haas to design something specific

00:43:31.880 --> 00:43:35.500
for us, which then is, well, now is available

00:43:35.500 --> 00:43:38.300
in any and all piece of apparatus. And he's in

00:43:38.300 --> 00:43:40.719
private vehicle manufacturers and everything

00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:45.070
now. It has. We haven't had, knock on wood, one

00:43:45.070 --> 00:43:48.650
single apparatus on apparatus crash since we

00:43:48.650 --> 00:43:51.610
put those programs in place. Will you explain

00:43:51.610 --> 00:43:55.489
the alert system for us? Yep. So Haas Alert is

00:43:55.489 --> 00:43:59.820
a device that basically... takes millions and

00:43:59.820 --> 00:44:02.559
millions of measurements to determine, and every

00:44:02.559 --> 00:44:04.880
single piece of apparatus that has it, to determine

00:44:04.880 --> 00:44:07.980
the trajectory of where you're traveling and

00:44:07.980 --> 00:44:11.639
calculate the likelihood of you colliding if

00:44:11.639 --> 00:44:14.400
something doesn't change. And the way that it

00:44:14.400 --> 00:44:16.480
warns you is there's a blinking light right next

00:44:16.480 --> 00:44:19.179
to the driver. So the driver knows, hey, I need

00:44:19.179 --> 00:44:21.659
to slow down, really mind my P's and Q's, the

00:44:21.659 --> 00:44:24.010
whole nine. And what it does is it... It lets

00:44:24.010 --> 00:44:27.070
you know in all those blind intersections in

00:44:27.070 --> 00:44:29.969
a city like Washington, D .C., which almost every

00:44:29.969 --> 00:44:32.369
intersection is a blind intersection, that someone

00:44:32.369 --> 00:44:39.829
else is coming. And again, it's so juvenile in

00:44:39.829 --> 00:44:41.809
the thought process, you would think. You would

00:44:41.809 --> 00:44:44.090
think somebody would have just thought about

00:44:44.090 --> 00:44:46.849
this, but it took Corey Hoss and Haas in doing

00:44:46.849 --> 00:44:49.289
that and having that vision and bringing it to

00:44:49.289 --> 00:44:53.789
reality. I know just about every single organization

00:44:53.789 --> 00:44:57.150
in and around Washington, D .C. now is using

00:44:57.150 --> 00:45:02.110
the Haas system. And again, I mean, it's just

00:45:02.110 --> 00:45:05.969
that was us thinking outside the box, us finding

00:45:05.969 --> 00:45:09.230
a vendor, working with a vendor, tweaking a product

00:45:09.230 --> 00:45:12.989
that would fit us that ultimately ended up, again,

00:45:13.070 --> 00:45:18.030
being totally invaluable when the dust settles.

00:45:18.050 --> 00:45:21.710
Here we are several years later. There are, man,

00:45:21.809 --> 00:45:25.150
there are so many things that I could talk about

00:45:25.150 --> 00:45:28.030
that we were able to do. Oh, here's one. The

00:45:28.030 --> 00:45:30.329
violence against responders tracking application.

00:45:30.730 --> 00:45:33.389
So we had a big issue a couple of years ago where

00:45:33.389 --> 00:45:35.429
one of our units was operating on the scene of

00:45:35.429 --> 00:45:38.570
a medical local and someone that was high on

00:45:38.570 --> 00:45:43.010
PCP walked into the scene, became verbally abusive

00:45:43.010 --> 00:45:45.590
towards our responders and then became physically

00:45:45.590 --> 00:45:50.230
abusive. MPD was not on the scene yet. They had

00:45:50.230 --> 00:45:52.510
been requested, but they weren't there yet. We

00:45:52.510 --> 00:45:55.670
do not have police powers, but we did restrain

00:45:55.670 --> 00:45:58.489
the individual as best as we could to keep the

00:45:58.489 --> 00:46:02.639
incident from escalating. On the other side of

00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:05.039
that, being in the Health and Safety Division

00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:08.039
and asking a lot of questions, we learned that

00:46:08.039 --> 00:46:10.019
really there weren't any protections in place

00:46:10.019 --> 00:46:12.980
for our firefighters in the district. I didn't

00:46:12.980 --> 00:46:16.059
know it at the time, but assault on our firefighters

00:46:16.059 --> 00:46:18.840
was, at the time, simple assault. It wasn't the

00:46:18.840 --> 00:46:21.079
same as assault on a police officer, which is

00:46:21.079 --> 00:46:24.440
crazy to me. There was this general consensus

00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:27.619
that we can't leave a scene. We were there treating

00:46:27.619 --> 00:46:32.269
that patient. And this happened that if we were

00:46:32.269 --> 00:46:34.590
to leave, that's patient abandonment. We were

00:46:34.590 --> 00:46:37.110
able to disprove that, right? Like that whole

00:46:37.110 --> 00:46:41.630
DSI scene safety thing doesn't change the moment

00:46:41.630 --> 00:46:44.710
that you enter the scene. It stays the same the

00:46:44.710 --> 00:46:48.710
entire scene. So we were able to educate our

00:46:48.710 --> 00:46:52.550
members on things that they could do. We were

00:46:52.550 --> 00:46:56.920
able to educate our members on the i guess the

00:46:56.920 --> 00:47:00.739
actual legality of leaving the scene if you absolutely

00:47:00.739 --> 00:47:05.940
have to um we were able to put a system in place

00:47:05.940 --> 00:47:08.679
where our members on the scene could document

00:47:08.679 --> 00:47:12.139
really quick via an application every time they

00:47:12.139 --> 00:47:14.880
were verbally physically assaulted and put in

00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:17.559
as much information as they want and we've been

00:47:17.559 --> 00:47:20.239
able to identify okay well in this battalion

00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:24.500
uh during these hours etc etc there's a higher

00:47:24.500 --> 00:47:27.559
likelihood of that. So what that can do for us

00:47:27.559 --> 00:47:29.380
eventually, we haven't done it yet, but we could

00:47:29.380 --> 00:47:32.300
increase the number of responders. Some of the

00:47:32.300 --> 00:47:35.300
things that it has done for us is it's allowed

00:47:35.300 --> 00:47:38.780
us to request MPD and their assistance in other

00:47:38.780 --> 00:47:42.900
ways. For us, a 1033 is our verbal signal that

00:47:42.900 --> 00:47:46.559
we need immediate police response. But like anything

00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:51.380
else, say a May Day, if you suddenly change the

00:47:51.380 --> 00:47:53.800
fire service to say, hey, every time you've got

00:47:53.800 --> 00:47:56.659
a priority message, say May Day on the radio,

00:47:57.079 --> 00:47:59.780
then eventually our entire May Day would just

00:47:59.780 --> 00:48:03.570
be. another transmission, right? So we did not

00:48:03.570 --> 00:48:07.550
want to use 1033 15 times a day. So we just created

00:48:07.550 --> 00:48:10.369
a priority one response with MPD. And that's

00:48:10.369 --> 00:48:12.849
actually what gets used 90 % of the time now.

00:48:13.630 --> 00:48:16.590
Very rarely do our people have to declare a 1033,

00:48:16.829 --> 00:48:21.329
but they do need MPD's assistance pretty regularly.

00:48:22.010 --> 00:48:24.989
So I'm sorry, I'm sitting here trying to rack

00:48:24.989 --> 00:48:28.119
my brain. Everything that we were able to do,

00:48:28.119 --> 00:48:30.780
it just keeps going and going and going. And

00:48:30.780 --> 00:48:33.119
again, I mean, I have to give the fire chief

00:48:33.119 --> 00:48:36.900
all the credit in the world for anything that

00:48:36.900 --> 00:48:39.559
we took back to him pretty much within reason

00:48:39.559 --> 00:48:42.300
was just done. He was like, yep, make it happen.

00:48:42.380 --> 00:48:46.880
Make it happen. We totally revamped our annual

00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:49.559
physical at the police and fire clinic to finally

00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:52.659
be 1582 compliant. That's something we have been

00:48:52.659 --> 00:48:55.820
working on. since long before i first went to

00:48:55.820 --> 00:48:58.739
the safety office so we're now actually for the

00:48:58.739 --> 00:49:01.739
first time ever as of last october doing yearly

00:49:01.739 --> 00:49:05.179
physical fitness assessments we're doing a much

00:49:05.179 --> 00:49:08.980
better behavioral health screening that's actually

00:49:08.980 --> 00:49:13.340
required in the standard um our cancer screenings

00:49:13.340 --> 00:49:16.179
we do every single one of them that is required

00:49:16.179 --> 00:49:19.320
in the standard now um and we're not done there

00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:22.860
i'd like to continue to build on that um And

00:49:22.860 --> 00:49:24.639
go with things that are above the standard and

00:49:24.639 --> 00:49:28.079
beyond the standard. But that was a huge win

00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:31.800
for the health and safety of our members. And

00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:33.659
really, I think I'm going to stop right there

00:49:33.659 --> 00:49:36.760
because I'm really racking my brain right now

00:49:36.760 --> 00:49:39.179
trying to think of all these things. But at the

00:49:39.179 --> 00:49:41.820
end of the day, that's what every single one

00:49:41.820 --> 00:49:46.800
of these programs or enhancements or whatever

00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:50.000
the case may be has been about. It's been about.

00:49:50.699 --> 00:49:54.780
the safety of our members. And we've been intentional

00:49:54.780 --> 00:49:57.500
in getting in front of them and saying, look,

00:49:57.659 --> 00:50:01.420
we're not trying to put all these things in place

00:50:01.420 --> 00:50:03.400
to keep you from doing your job. We're putting

00:50:03.400 --> 00:50:05.820
these things in place to help you do your job

00:50:05.820 --> 00:50:08.800
more effectively by keeping you safer, by keeping

00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:11.360
you at work instead of increasing the likelihood

00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:15.239
of injury, by hopefully helping you live a long

00:50:15.239 --> 00:50:18.400
and prosperous retirement, not just... get to

00:50:18.400 --> 00:50:21.199
retirement and then end up croaking 10 months

00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:26.380
later. And I think on the whole, the organization

00:50:26.380 --> 00:50:29.159
is far better off. And I know our members are

00:50:29.159 --> 00:50:33.300
far better off because of it. You mentioned about

00:50:33.300 --> 00:50:37.639
the PPE that you put in place. I just recently

00:50:37.639 --> 00:50:40.079
got in contact with a company. Actually, they

00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:43.800
approached me who are developing a probiotic.

00:50:44.139 --> 00:50:47.119
that hopefully will remove pfas from the human

00:50:47.119 --> 00:50:49.780
body obviously that's a you know a big topic

00:50:49.780 --> 00:50:52.260
now and again i want to give maximum thanks to

00:50:52.260 --> 00:50:55.139
diane cotter who really has been the absolute

00:50:55.139 --> 00:50:58.860
fire spark plug when it comes to getting us in

00:50:58.860 --> 00:51:01.539
our profession to realize how bad this is but

00:51:01.539 --> 00:51:03.599
anyway they paid for me to have a blood test

00:51:03.599 --> 00:51:06.539
done and normally when i get blood work of all

00:51:06.539 --> 00:51:07.980
the other things the things that we're usually

00:51:07.980 --> 00:51:09.900
looking for you know my blood work is usually

00:51:09.900 --> 00:51:13.070
pretty spot on When it came back as far as the

00:51:13.070 --> 00:51:15.329
PFAS and there's different kind of types within

00:51:15.329 --> 00:51:18.829
that spectrum, everything that registered was

00:51:18.829 --> 00:51:22.030
off the charts, like way, way off the charts,

00:51:22.170 --> 00:51:26.150
terrifyingly so. So this is a huge topic, I think,

00:51:26.150 --> 00:51:28.130
you know, for us is it, as you said, the prevention

00:51:28.130 --> 00:51:30.510
side, what are these pieces that we can manage?

00:51:30.570 --> 00:51:33.090
We can't manage what was in that building that

00:51:33.090 --> 00:51:35.809
is on fire, but we can manage what's in our gear.

00:51:35.849 --> 00:51:39.900
We can manage the decon after. So with the PPE,

00:51:40.139 --> 00:51:41.820
has that been a conversation? Is that something

00:51:41.820 --> 00:51:44.500
you've already put in place as far as a manufacturer

00:51:44.500 --> 00:51:48.760
that has the PFAS free gear now? So I think that

00:51:48.760 --> 00:51:52.500
where our organization and our bargaining unit

00:51:52.500 --> 00:51:56.840
and me personally, where we lie, is we want to

00:51:56.840 --> 00:52:00.340
wait until there's a reliable product on the

00:52:00.340 --> 00:52:03.559
market that can do those things. And unfortunately,

00:52:03.860 --> 00:52:07.219
I don't think that that... exists at the moment

00:52:07.219 --> 00:52:09.380
and that's no knock on anyone that has it uh

00:52:09.380 --> 00:52:13.079
we've worked hand in hand with both steadfast

00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:20.340
and gore and trying to um how can i say this

00:52:20.340 --> 00:52:23.559
tell them eventually what the fire service needs

00:52:23.559 --> 00:52:25.400
and i don't mean tell them as and we tell them

00:52:25.400 --> 00:52:26.960
what to do i'm just saying that we have really

00:52:26.960 --> 00:52:29.840
good open relationships with both of those organizations

00:52:29.840 --> 00:52:32.480
both of those organizations are somewhere i could

00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:36.030
see myself ending up when this career is long

00:52:36.030 --> 00:52:42.030
over with um but i think that the timeliness

00:52:42.030 --> 00:52:45.090
of pushing a product without knowing what it

00:52:45.090 --> 00:52:48.449
was going to do is is ultimately what has hindered

00:52:48.449 --> 00:52:52.280
our our ability to do that. Segwaying from that

00:52:52.280 --> 00:52:56.340
into back in April, I was invited to NFPA up

00:52:56.340 --> 00:52:59.920
in Boston, and I sat in a room with people that

00:52:59.920 --> 00:53:02.719
are far more intelligent than I. Obviously, you

00:53:02.719 --> 00:53:05.559
know, Jeff Sturgis was in there, Brian Ormond.

00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:09.280
Oh, God, what's Heather's last name? She's from

00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:12.880
another university. North Carolina. But there

00:53:12.880 --> 00:53:14.780
were PPE manufacturers, there were component

00:53:14.780 --> 00:53:17.420
manufacturers, there were fire service leaders,

00:53:17.800 --> 00:53:22.019
there were labor people, there were obviously

00:53:22.019 --> 00:53:26.360
research scientists. The entire conversation

00:53:26.360 --> 00:53:29.380
was about 1970 and all the changes to the gear

00:53:29.380 --> 00:53:31.920
and how the service was not going to meet it

00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:36.260
by the deadline in September. But obviously PFAS

00:53:36.260 --> 00:53:39.199
was a large conversation of that as well. And

00:53:39.199 --> 00:53:43.079
I think that What I took out of that, more so

00:53:43.079 --> 00:53:46.239
than anything else, was the manufacturers are

00:53:46.239 --> 00:53:49.380
asking for the same thing that some of us in

00:53:49.380 --> 00:53:51.599
the fire service are asking for. And that's just,

00:53:51.659 --> 00:53:54.679
we're not asking to kick the ball down the field.

00:53:54.780 --> 00:53:57.099
We're just saying, hey, slow down just enough

00:53:57.099 --> 00:54:00.420
to get a quality product in our members' hands.

00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:03.239
Because the last thing we want is something that's

00:54:03.239 --> 00:54:06.719
going to protect our members even less, if that

00:54:06.719 --> 00:54:10.760
makes any sense to you. So that's where we are.

00:54:10.860 --> 00:54:16.019
It's something that we want to put in place.

00:54:16.179 --> 00:54:18.480
It's something that we want to do for our members,

00:54:18.619 --> 00:54:24.719
for ourselves. But we don't want to be so quick

00:54:24.719 --> 00:54:28.059
to do it that we end up hurting other aspects

00:54:28.059 --> 00:54:30.159
of our job. Because there's going to be a trade

00:54:30.159 --> 00:54:33.539
-off anytime you make any change to PPE. Yeah.

00:54:33.559 --> 00:54:34.960
No, that's a really interesting perspective.

00:54:35.179 --> 00:54:36.679
And it's one of the first times I've heard someone,

00:54:36.780 --> 00:54:39.070
you know. that was really present in some of

00:54:39.070 --> 00:54:40.590
these conversations. And I think the perfect

00:54:40.590 --> 00:54:43.449
parallel is the COVID vaccine. You know, there

00:54:43.449 --> 00:54:46.130
was rush, rush, rush, rush. And, you know, in

00:54:46.130 --> 00:54:47.710
that conversation, obviously, I think a lot of

00:54:47.710 --> 00:54:49.369
people didn't need it in the first place, but

00:54:49.369 --> 00:54:51.929
some people did. But the efficacy and, you know,

00:54:51.949 --> 00:54:54.719
the safety of it. was rushed through. And now,

00:54:54.820 --> 00:54:57.719
retrospectively, we're realizing that it didn't

00:54:57.719 --> 00:55:00.199
do the thing that, you know, we were told initially

00:55:00.199 --> 00:55:02.460
that it did as far as 100 % efficacy and all

00:55:02.460 --> 00:55:04.760
these kind of things. So it is a good kind of

00:55:04.760 --> 00:55:06.840
side by side comparison. If you rush something

00:55:06.840 --> 00:55:09.639
through too fast, you might end up with something,

00:55:09.699 --> 00:55:11.639
as you alluded to, that actually makes things

00:55:11.639 --> 00:55:14.920
worse, not better. Yeah. Have you seen any of

00:55:14.920 --> 00:55:18.239
Brian Orman's stuff out of NC State regarding

00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:23.300
Specifically, the DWR finish on top of PPE and

00:55:23.300 --> 00:55:26.940
what that looked like on a firefighter's PPE

00:55:26.940 --> 00:55:30.380
ensemble prior to the removal of PFAS containing

00:55:30.380 --> 00:55:33.460
DWR. And then what it looks like now with like

00:55:33.460 --> 00:55:37.360
a wax based. If you haven't or if any of your

00:55:37.360 --> 00:55:39.159
listeners haven't and they're a fire service

00:55:39.159 --> 00:55:42.219
leader, I would just ask them, beg them to go

00:55:42.219 --> 00:55:44.599
look at that. And you can choose to believe it.

00:55:44.619 --> 00:55:47.420
You can choose not to believe it. I sat on a

00:55:47.420 --> 00:55:50.349
committee. with Professor Ormond and probably

00:55:50.349 --> 00:55:53.989
100 other people prior to Professor Ormond writing

00:55:53.989 --> 00:55:56.789
his most recent paper, which caught a lot of

00:55:56.789 --> 00:56:00.889
flack from some of the fire service. And he didn't

00:56:00.889 --> 00:56:08.989
say one way or other in that article that PFAS

00:56:08.989 --> 00:56:13.440
isn't. something we need to do uh removing it

00:56:13.440 --> 00:56:16.579
meaning all he said was the same thing i'm saying

00:56:16.579 --> 00:56:19.260
which is let's just do it scientifically please

00:56:19.260 --> 00:56:22.079
you know because what he found was in his studies

00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:23.739
and again you can choose to believe it or not

00:56:23.739 --> 00:56:29.320
but he found that not only water repelled better

00:56:29.320 --> 00:56:31.380
on the old stuff right like that's something

00:56:31.380 --> 00:56:35.369
we all saw gear prior to 2018, 2021, depending

00:56:35.369 --> 00:56:37.349
on the manufacturer that began to remove it,

00:56:37.469 --> 00:56:40.449
would just bead up and run right down the outside

00:56:40.449 --> 00:56:43.550
of your turnout gear. And then with the newer

00:56:43.550 --> 00:56:47.809
DWR finish, it seems to soak in it like a paper

00:56:47.809 --> 00:56:50.150
towel, so to speak, right? Which, you know, the

00:56:50.150 --> 00:56:52.130
first inclination is, well, it makes the gear

00:56:52.130 --> 00:56:54.250
heavier, which could lead to cardiac strain,

00:56:54.469 --> 00:56:56.590
et cetera. That's a concern, but that's not the

00:56:56.590 --> 00:56:59.409
biggest concern to me. To me, the biggest concern

00:56:59.409 --> 00:57:03.010
is if water does that. what does oil what does

00:57:03.010 --> 00:57:06.849
fuel what does the simple hydrocarbons the byproducts

00:57:06.849 --> 00:57:09.610
of combustion and what he found was they were

00:57:09.610 --> 00:57:11.989
all doing the same thing and this the gear was

00:57:11.989 --> 00:57:16.699
basically soaking it up and when pyro man which

00:57:16.699 --> 00:57:19.000
is what they utilize for their their burn test

00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:23.500
when they introduced a direct flame to that unwashed

00:57:23.500 --> 00:57:26.659
gear it lit up like a dry christmas tree and

00:57:26.659 --> 00:57:31.880
it scared me to death that's when like myself

00:57:31.880 --> 00:57:34.159
and the bargaining unit and leadership in our

00:57:34.159 --> 00:57:36.900
organization is like hold on wait we cannot rush

00:57:36.900 --> 00:57:39.360
this one because the last thing we need to do

00:57:39.360 --> 00:57:42.019
is You know, put all that emphasis in our people

00:57:42.019 --> 00:57:44.139
like, hey, every single time you run a car accident

00:57:44.139 --> 00:57:46.039
where there's fluids, you need to make sure you

00:57:46.039 --> 00:57:48.139
wash your gear. Every time you do this, you need

00:57:48.139 --> 00:57:50.739
to make sure you wash your gear. We just felt

00:57:50.739 --> 00:57:53.519
like, hey, we want to wait until the science

00:57:53.519 --> 00:57:55.980
and the product catches up and we're going to

00:57:55.980 --> 00:57:58.760
go after this. What we've done additionally to

00:57:58.760 --> 00:58:04.150
that, hopefully. alleviate the PFAS, not alleviate

00:58:04.150 --> 00:58:06.710
it, but reduce it, is, you know, we've preached

00:58:06.710 --> 00:58:11.170
not working out in PPE. We've preached not wearing

00:58:11.170 --> 00:58:13.489
it on calls that you don't specifically need

00:58:13.489 --> 00:58:16.789
it for. We issued winter coats to all of our

00:58:16.789 --> 00:58:19.969
members, fire and EMS, instead of them wearing

00:58:19.969 --> 00:58:24.289
turnout gear as a coat in the winter. We are

00:58:24.289 --> 00:58:28.949
still talking about a second style of PPE, something

00:58:28.949 --> 00:58:33.769
that's more in line with, say, tech rescue gear

00:58:33.769 --> 00:58:36.769
or something like that to wear for flash protection,

00:58:37.090 --> 00:58:40.570
but doesn't have everything else in it. And you

00:58:40.570 --> 00:58:44.630
wouldn't really necessarily need that same amount

00:58:44.630 --> 00:58:48.429
of fire protection. So it being a little more

00:58:48.429 --> 00:58:51.969
absorbent probably doesn't harm you as much as

00:58:51.969 --> 00:58:54.030
if that were your PPE ensemble that you were

00:58:54.030 --> 00:58:57.639
exposing those things to. And I think my personal

00:58:57.639 --> 00:59:00.000
opinion, obviously, I can't tell any fire service

00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:02.460
leader what to do. But I think those types of

00:59:02.460 --> 00:59:05.159
conversations are really intelligent to have.

00:59:05.159 --> 00:59:08.679
Those things to look at are very smart right

00:59:08.679 --> 00:59:11.320
now. Science is going to move fast. We're going

00:59:11.320 --> 00:59:15.360
to have many options here really soon. I firmly

00:59:15.360 --> 00:59:17.139
believe that within the next couple of years.

00:59:17.400 --> 00:59:21.960
But definitely before you, you just. put all

00:59:21.960 --> 00:59:24.119
your eggs in that basket, just do a little bit

00:59:24.119 --> 00:59:26.780
of research, please, and just see the trade -off.

00:59:26.900 --> 00:59:29.940
And again, I know it's very controversial for

00:59:29.940 --> 00:59:33.059
me to even say that, but it's something that

00:59:33.059 --> 00:59:36.039
I've walked through, I've seen, I've been a part

00:59:36.039 --> 00:59:37.880
of committees, I've been a part of these conversations,

00:59:38.159 --> 00:59:42.050
and I honestly, honestly, honestly believe. that

00:59:42.050 --> 00:59:44.510
uh the best thing you can do right now is educate

00:59:44.510 --> 00:59:46.949
your members think outside the box and ways to

00:59:46.949 --> 00:59:49.250
get them out of it and work with these manufacturers

00:59:49.250 --> 00:59:52.349
as best as you can to get a reliable product

00:59:52.349 --> 00:59:56.199
to market Absolutely. I really appreciate that

00:59:56.199 --> 00:59:58.579
perspective because that's a brand new conversation

00:59:58.579 --> 01:00:01.219
now. It really is. I think another place that

01:00:01.219 --> 01:00:04.659
we've got to be wary of, knowing the fuckery

01:00:04.659 --> 01:00:07.639
of some of these companies like DuPont, is also

01:00:07.639 --> 01:00:09.559
that they don't come out with a material like,

01:00:09.639 --> 01:00:12.599
okay, it's not PFAS and it's just one molecule

01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:14.519
different and it does the same thing as well.

01:00:14.639 --> 01:00:16.960
So that's another thing we've got to be careful

01:00:16.960 --> 01:00:19.139
on the science side is that we're just not duped

01:00:19.139 --> 01:00:20.940
into thinking it's a safer product when it's

01:00:20.940 --> 01:00:23.900
not. And I think Dr. Heather does a great job

01:00:23.900 --> 01:00:26.900
of that. Again, I wish I could remember which

01:00:26.900 --> 01:00:29.800
university. She might be at Duke. It's definitely

01:00:29.800 --> 01:00:32.179
in North Carolina. I do know that. And I think

01:00:32.179 --> 01:00:35.360
it is Duke now that I said that. But she talks

01:00:35.360 --> 01:00:39.659
about, you know, bromide and all the other freaking

01:00:39.659 --> 01:00:42.900
chemicals and things, these compounds that are

01:00:42.900 --> 01:00:47.519
in our gear that 1970s calling to remove. The

01:00:47.519 --> 01:00:50.599
trade -off there of what that does to gear and

01:00:50.599 --> 01:00:52.420
then, okay, well, what if they just replace it

01:00:52.420 --> 01:00:54.760
with this? That's just as harmful. You just don't

01:00:54.760 --> 01:00:56.920
know it yet. And it's the exact same thing you're

01:00:56.920 --> 01:00:59.400
saying right there. Her message was the same.

01:00:59.480 --> 01:01:02.159
Like, when we're making these changes, we have

01:01:02.159 --> 01:01:06.119
to know to ask these questions. And I didn't

01:01:06.119 --> 01:01:08.659
realize I'd get so nerdy at this point in my

01:01:08.659 --> 01:01:11.059
life, but I'm really nerding out on a lot of

01:01:11.059 --> 01:01:14.679
this stuff because... I want what is absolutely

01:01:14.679 --> 01:01:18.139
best for the fire service, even if it means it's

01:01:18.139 --> 01:01:20.159
going to take me six months longer to get there,

01:01:20.260 --> 01:01:23.960
because I think that it's important to do it

01:01:23.960 --> 01:01:27.679
right one time, if that makes sense. No, it does

01:01:27.679 --> 01:01:30.460
completely. It does. Now, when we're talking

01:01:30.460 --> 01:01:33.460
about carcinogens, you know, the other, you know,

01:01:33.500 --> 01:01:35.760
what I call herd of elephants in the room is

01:01:35.760 --> 01:01:39.099
shift work, sleep deprivation. I have been on

01:01:39.099 --> 01:01:41.480
this mission now for, I mean, I think it's pretty

01:01:41.480 --> 01:01:43.320
much since I started this podcast, or certainly

01:01:43.320 --> 01:01:46.239
close to it, we're trying to get people to realize

01:01:46.239 --> 01:01:49.280
that the work week that a lot of us work around

01:01:49.280 --> 01:01:53.179
the country, the 56, and now with this recruitment

01:01:53.179 --> 01:01:55.639
crisis that we're seeing, that becomes 80 plus

01:01:55.639 --> 01:01:58.960
hours a week, that that is a massive contributing

01:01:58.960 --> 01:02:01.380
factor to everything from the cancers, to the

01:02:01.380 --> 01:02:03.480
suicides, to the addictions, to the divorces,

01:02:03.500 --> 01:02:06.300
to all things that we struggle with. when we

01:02:06.300 --> 01:02:09.039
spoke a few weeks ago initially you talked to

01:02:09.039 --> 01:02:11.460
me about not only the fact that you you know

01:02:11.460 --> 01:02:14.880
are doing 24 72 yourself which is a i think such

01:02:14.880 --> 01:02:18.000
an under -discussed fire service conversation

01:02:18.000 --> 01:02:19.980
and i've you know i've called him out our current

01:02:19.980 --> 01:02:23.159
union leadership work in a city that works 24

01:02:23.159 --> 01:02:26.420
72 i've seen nothing as far as right let's make

01:02:26.420 --> 01:02:29.019
the rest rest of the country work the same so

01:02:29.019 --> 01:02:31.679
talk to me about the history of the 24 72 in

01:02:31.679 --> 01:02:33.920
your department and then what are you seeing

01:02:33.920 --> 01:02:37.699
if you've had any ability to contrast with departments

01:02:37.699 --> 01:02:40.679
in your area that aren't working that that you

01:02:40.679 --> 01:02:43.519
know proactive healthy shift as far as health

01:02:43.519 --> 01:02:46.900
you know ability to recruit etc yeah absolutely

01:02:46.900 --> 01:02:52.360
um so we as an organization uh worked three three

01:02:52.360 --> 01:02:55.179
and three in the early to mid 80s and that was

01:02:55.179 --> 01:02:58.619
three 12 hour days three 12 hour nights and then

01:02:58.619 --> 01:03:01.639
three days off the mid to late 80s we switched

01:03:01.639 --> 01:03:06.239
to a 24 48 with a kelly um and then in the early

01:03:06.239 --> 01:03:09.420
90s we expanded the organization and picked up

01:03:09.420 --> 01:03:12.280
a fourth platoon based on you know just the needs

01:03:12.280 --> 01:03:16.400
of the city uh nfpa requirements of minimum staffing

01:03:16.400 --> 01:03:21.539
etc etc etc and we ended up To the best of my

01:03:21.539 --> 01:03:23.320
knowledge, it was one of the first in the country,

01:03:23.400 --> 01:03:26.179
not the by any means, but one of the first in

01:03:26.179 --> 01:03:30.960
1992 going to the 2472. Now, for those first

01:03:30.960 --> 01:03:33.440
couple of years, from what I've been told, staffing

01:03:33.440 --> 01:03:35.300
was a little insane because it does take you

01:03:35.300 --> 01:03:37.440
a while to build up that staffing. There was

01:03:37.440 --> 01:03:39.559
a lot of overtime. There was a lot of other things.

01:03:39.860 --> 01:03:42.820
But really, after about 94, 95, the department

01:03:42.820 --> 01:03:45.599
was fully staffed and we've that's all we've

01:03:45.599 --> 01:03:49.329
ever known. So what does that mean? in comparison

01:03:49.329 --> 01:03:51.630
to other organizations what we'll talk about

01:03:51.630 --> 01:03:54.949
right now in the staffing crisis you and i spoke

01:03:54.949 --> 01:03:58.070
about that a couple of weeks ago in washington

01:03:58.070 --> 01:04:01.510
dc we don't have one and i don't mean to sound

01:04:01.510 --> 01:04:07.210
um how do i want to say this i don't i'm not

01:04:07.210 --> 01:04:09.630
bragging about that but i am bragging about that

01:04:09.630 --> 01:04:12.989
i guess um we have so many people that leave

01:04:12.989 --> 01:04:15.730
their agencies in and around washington dc to

01:04:15.730 --> 01:04:21.340
come to us or Ohio or New York or wherever the

01:04:21.340 --> 01:04:23.320
case may be. And one of the first things that

01:04:23.320 --> 01:04:25.460
they say is the reason that they came was the

01:04:25.460 --> 01:04:30.360
2472, the pay. Then you get into the, well, it's

01:04:30.360 --> 01:04:32.460
Washington, D .C. or it's whatever, whatever.

01:04:32.739 --> 01:04:36.360
So what does that mean to me? That means that

01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:38.860
no knock won't be in a Washington, D .C. firefighter.

01:04:39.260 --> 01:04:42.480
place a lot of pride in that. But it does mean

01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:44.380
that the people that are coming on the job are

01:04:44.380 --> 01:04:46.699
more concerned about the shift and the money

01:04:46.699 --> 01:04:50.260
than they are about exactly where they are. I

01:04:50.260 --> 01:04:52.320
don't know if that's good, that's bad. But I

01:04:52.320 --> 01:04:54.159
know that for our organization, that it's really

01:04:54.159 --> 01:04:57.239
good. Because again, when you hear some departments

01:04:57.239 --> 01:05:00.920
having a mandatory overtime people or having

01:05:00.920 --> 01:05:03.840
to do this or having to do that, like we're staffed

01:05:03.840 --> 01:05:09.510
right now at 102 or 103 % of our agency, meaning

01:05:09.510 --> 01:05:12.909
we have extra bodies. That doesn't mean we work

01:05:12.909 --> 01:05:15.449
without overtime because there are so many various

01:05:15.449 --> 01:05:17.869
types of leave, whether it's sick leave, annual

01:05:17.869 --> 01:05:20.670
leave, paid family leave, whatever the case may

01:05:20.670 --> 01:05:24.590
be. We're always working some people overtime,

01:05:24.750 --> 01:05:27.610
but it's not against their will. We have not

01:05:27.610 --> 01:05:31.489
had the mandatory overtime someone, oh gosh,

01:05:31.789 --> 01:05:35.460
probably two years. and the last time we did

01:05:35.460 --> 01:05:39.300
was paramedics more so than anyone else um but

01:05:39.300 --> 01:05:43.260
we just we don't have those issues and i can

01:05:43.260 --> 01:05:46.320
only attribute that to the three things the schedule

01:05:46.320 --> 01:05:49.679
the pay and the fact that we're an urban fire

01:05:49.679 --> 01:05:55.579
department it's like the perfect uh i guess setting

01:05:57.619 --> 01:05:59.420
One of the things I was going to ask you this

01:05:59.420 --> 01:06:01.539
as far as the other proactive initiatives that

01:06:01.539 --> 01:06:03.059
you've done, whether it's, you know, like you

01:06:03.059 --> 01:06:05.460
said, everything from the PPP to the Haas system.

01:06:06.619 --> 01:06:10.179
One of the things, sadly, that is the barrier

01:06:10.179 --> 01:06:13.019
to making this change. And I'll just, you know,

01:06:13.019 --> 01:06:15.980
call a spade a spade. If it was simply the wellness

01:06:15.980 --> 01:06:18.579
of the fire service, this would have been changed

01:06:18.579 --> 01:06:20.760
decades ago. Because you look at, you know, you

01:06:20.760 --> 01:06:22.599
talk about the numbers, that's the official numbers.

01:06:22.679 --> 01:06:24.699
That's not even the behind the curtain numbers

01:06:24.699 --> 01:06:27.460
of who we lose, whether it's... Buried because

01:06:27.460 --> 01:06:29.719
it was a suicide or an overdose or whether it

01:06:29.719 --> 01:06:33.500
was the other 80%, 90 % of deaths, which is our

01:06:33.500 --> 01:06:36.019
retirees that don't get reported at all because

01:06:36.019 --> 01:06:39.320
there's no VA for the fire service. So the magnitude

01:06:39.320 --> 01:06:42.300
of this physical and mental health crisis that

01:06:42.300 --> 01:06:44.519
we're in is really kind of brushed under the

01:06:44.519 --> 01:06:47.480
carpet. So really, though, I mean, from a human

01:06:47.480 --> 01:06:48.900
point of view, that should have been enough,

01:06:48.940 --> 01:06:50.619
but it isn't. Let's just be completely honest.

01:06:50.719 --> 01:06:53.940
So then it comes down to dollars and cents. What

01:06:53.940 --> 01:06:57.500
have you seen as far as the savings as you start

01:06:57.500 --> 01:07:01.300
doing these proactive solutions? I'm assuming

01:07:01.300 --> 01:07:04.780
there's no real way of seeing the 2472 specifically,

01:07:05.079 --> 01:07:08.260
but when you contrast it to the immense overtime

01:07:08.260 --> 01:07:11.179
budget, I'll give you a perfect example. LAFD

01:07:11.179 --> 01:07:14.079
over three years, their overtime budget was a

01:07:14.079 --> 01:07:17.909
billion dollars with a B, three years. So, you

01:07:17.909 --> 01:07:20.090
know, you don't have to be a rocket scientist

01:07:20.090 --> 01:07:22.510
to figure out which system is going to be healthier

01:07:22.510 --> 01:07:25.690
and also more fiscally sound. But in all these

01:07:25.690 --> 01:07:27.989
proactive initiatives, have you been able to

01:07:27.989 --> 01:07:30.510
attach a dollar amount, as you mentioned, just

01:07:30.510 --> 01:07:33.510
intersection wrecks alone, you know, the lawsuits

01:07:33.510 --> 01:07:37.030
and all these other things? We sure have. So

01:07:37.030 --> 01:07:39.449
first and foremost, and the most obvious, is

01:07:39.449 --> 01:07:43.170
what O2X does for our people. O2X produces us.

01:07:43.550 --> 01:07:46.809
quarterly and annual reports on the overall cost

01:07:46.809 --> 01:07:49.289
savings and the way that they figure that is

01:07:49.289 --> 01:07:53.690
utilizing our typical performance of duty which

01:07:53.690 --> 01:07:55.789
is our workman's comp we do it all in -house

01:07:55.789 --> 01:07:58.769
so it's performance of duty and sick leave usage

01:07:58.769 --> 01:08:03.010
compared year after year based on the number

01:08:03.010 --> 01:08:06.769
of people that they get um and the speed at which

01:08:06.769 --> 01:08:10.110
they get them back to work so in a mechanic shop

01:08:10.110 --> 01:08:14.099
you have um different hours that are associated

01:08:14.099 --> 01:08:17.539
with a different service let's say a oil change

01:08:17.539 --> 01:08:20.079
which is a half an hour let's say a break job

01:08:20.079 --> 01:08:24.020
is 1 .25 hours and you had both of those uh done

01:08:24.020 --> 01:08:25.779
and it's supposed to take one and three quarter

01:08:25.779 --> 01:08:28.600
hours to do it that's what the dealership's going

01:08:28.600 --> 01:08:31.220
to get paid but it only took your mechanic a

01:08:31.220 --> 01:08:34.060
half hour to do it so you know basically you

01:08:34.060 --> 01:08:37.560
just got yourself an hour and a quarter back

01:08:37.560 --> 01:08:41.260
um in profit, so to speak. Well, the same thing

01:08:41.260 --> 01:08:44.239
works with injuries. There are just generally

01:08:44.239 --> 01:08:48.960
accepted timeframes. An ACL is six to nine months.

01:08:49.659 --> 01:08:53.899
An Achilles is nine to 12 months. A shoulder

01:08:53.899 --> 01:08:56.979
that doesn't require surgery may be four to six

01:08:56.979 --> 01:08:59.520
weeks or whatever the case may be. So utilizing

01:08:59.520 --> 01:09:03.399
all those numbers coupled with an average of

01:09:03.399 --> 01:09:06.539
an hourly rate, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

01:09:07.000 --> 01:09:11.329
Last year, Their report to us showed that they

01:09:11.329 --> 01:09:16.090
saved us $4 .2 million on a contract that we

01:09:16.090 --> 01:09:21.029
pay $800 ,000 a year. So we netted $3 .4 million

01:09:21.029 --> 01:09:24.090
in savings overall, which allowed us to spend

01:09:24.090 --> 01:09:26.949
that elsewhere that we didn't have to spend for

01:09:26.949 --> 01:09:29.449
these injuries and these time off things. So

01:09:29.449 --> 01:09:32.210
that's the most clear cut. It's hard to argue

01:09:32.210 --> 01:09:36.220
with. It's right there. in front of you um a

01:09:36.220 --> 01:09:38.880
second one that we've seen is some of the changes

01:09:38.880 --> 01:09:42.539
that we've done regarding the access to leave

01:09:42.539 --> 01:09:47.300
usage uh and things like that we used to make

01:09:47.300 --> 01:09:49.460
it somewhat difficult for our people to get off

01:09:49.460 --> 01:09:51.619
for little nagging injuries we would make them

01:09:51.619 --> 01:09:54.199
come to the police and fire clinic just to say

01:09:54.199 --> 01:09:57.220
hey my toe hurts today like i can't go to work

01:09:57.220 --> 01:10:00.039
whatever the case may be we have something called

01:10:00.039 --> 01:10:03.939
the minor illness program we've drastically increased

01:10:03.939 --> 01:10:05.960
the amount of times that someone can utilize

01:10:05.960 --> 01:10:08.380
that. They just can't utilize it in succession.

01:10:08.779 --> 01:10:12.359
And we've seen about a third overall reduction

01:10:12.359 --> 01:10:14.760
in our number of performance of duty entries.

01:10:15.060 --> 01:10:19.119
So I'm not saying that some people are fraudulent

01:10:19.119 --> 01:10:22.520
in claiming performance of duty, but I am saying

01:10:22.520 --> 01:10:25.460
that there is a direct correlation between allowing

01:10:25.460 --> 01:10:29.300
them access to utilize their own leave. They're

01:10:29.300 --> 01:10:31.479
paying for that leave. It's their leave. And

01:10:31.479 --> 01:10:34.479
now you don't have these mysterious 5 a .m. injuries

01:10:34.479 --> 01:10:37.920
when someone's lifting their gear bag that we

01:10:37.920 --> 01:10:41.340
used to have a lot of. So, I mean, little changes

01:10:41.340 --> 01:10:46.020
like that have been amazing to just see that

01:10:46.020 --> 01:10:49.079
increase. I'd have to say that our behavioral

01:10:49.079 --> 01:10:52.420
health stuff is on the other side of that. It's

01:10:52.420 --> 01:10:54.819
continuing to raise and continuing to go up.

01:10:55.100 --> 01:10:59.840
But I believe that is a direct. The result of

01:10:59.840 --> 01:11:03.779
the newness of it, the acceptance to be more

01:11:03.779 --> 01:11:05.779
open about it, which is causing more people to

01:11:05.779 --> 01:11:08.859
talk about it. And then some of these just catastrophic

01:11:08.859 --> 01:11:10.920
things that have happened in the city the last

01:11:10.920 --> 01:11:13.380
few years, rather, was January 6th and everything

01:11:13.380 --> 01:11:16.539
that that went with that. It was the what do

01:11:16.539 --> 01:11:18.439
they call them now? They don't call them riots.

01:11:18.579 --> 01:11:23.989
They call them. Peaceful gatherings. Yeah, peaceful

01:11:23.989 --> 01:11:27.529
protests or whatever it is. So you can use whatever

01:11:27.529 --> 01:11:31.550
word you want to use. But those, the airplane

01:11:31.550 --> 01:11:35.229
crash, we've had a couple of deaths of active

01:11:35.229 --> 01:11:39.130
members. So I think all of those things add up

01:11:39.130 --> 01:11:42.630
to that on the behavioral health side. The good

01:11:42.630 --> 01:11:47.029
thing about the behavioral health side is, thankfully,

01:11:48.680 --> 01:11:51.399
And it breaks my heart to say that we had one.

01:11:51.840 --> 01:11:55.699
But thankfully, there's been one in the past,

01:11:55.939 --> 01:11:58.539
I'm trying to think back, I want to say seven

01:11:58.539 --> 01:12:03.439
years, that there isn't even a direct that they

01:12:03.439 --> 01:12:06.500
committed suicide. It's just it may have, it

01:12:06.500 --> 01:12:11.159
may haven't. So it's kind of questionable. But

01:12:11.159 --> 01:12:16.739
that's really good for Washington, D .C. in any

01:12:16.739 --> 01:12:20.720
urban fire department uh and i'm just gonna stop

01:12:20.720 --> 01:12:22.539
right there i want to say so much more but it's

01:12:22.539 --> 01:12:26.319
it's a touchy subject um so yeah i i can 100

01:12:26.319 --> 01:12:31.819
say that we have seen a positive budgetary work

01:12:31.819 --> 01:12:37.100
performance uh just being at work um impact of

01:12:37.100 --> 01:12:40.960
these programs and these policies yeah i think

01:12:40.960 --> 01:12:43.510
this is the other thing that i'm realizing now

01:12:43.510 --> 01:12:47.250
because this is a constant ongoing you know metamorphosis

01:12:47.250 --> 01:12:49.609
of understanding and culture change and all these

01:12:49.609 --> 01:12:53.310
things but when for example you have a department

01:12:53.310 --> 01:12:54.909
and they're like oh my goodness it's going to

01:12:54.909 --> 01:12:57.590
cost this many million to put in that fourth

01:12:57.590 --> 01:13:01.010
shift The conversation needs to be one of two

01:13:01.010 --> 01:13:03.210
things. Firstly, what is your downstream annual

01:13:03.210 --> 01:13:06.210
wastage through overtime, lack of retention,

01:13:06.609 --> 01:13:08.710
workman's complaints, et cetera, et cetera, which

01:13:08.710 --> 01:13:11.069
ends up being millions and millions and millions

01:13:11.069 --> 01:13:12.750
and millions, depending on the size of the city

01:13:12.750 --> 01:13:15.149
or the county. But secondly, it's an ownership

01:13:15.149 --> 01:13:19.109
piece. You didn't choose to go to a healthier

01:13:19.109 --> 01:13:21.670
work week 10, 20 years ago. And I'm talking about

01:13:21.670 --> 01:13:24.810
other departments. So this has got worse and

01:13:24.810 --> 01:13:26.829
worse and worse to the point that it's now a

01:13:26.829 --> 01:13:29.449
crisis. Because there are literally departments

01:13:29.449 --> 01:13:33.470
in America that almost no one wants to work for

01:13:33.470 --> 01:13:36.310
anymore. So we can genuinely put our hand on

01:13:36.310 --> 01:13:37.710
our heart and say there might be some departments

01:13:37.710 --> 01:13:40.130
that literally have to tell the city, sorry,

01:13:40.270 --> 01:13:41.890
we can't do this anymore. We don't have enough

01:13:41.890 --> 01:13:46.050
people. So to turn that around, and you were

01:13:46.050 --> 01:13:50.090
mentioning even the recruitment struggles of

01:13:50.090 --> 01:13:54.060
law enforcement. And we at least have a decent

01:13:54.060 --> 01:13:56.880
public persona, a relationship with the public.

01:13:57.100 --> 01:13:59.439
But the poor law enforcement community have been

01:13:59.439 --> 01:14:01.840
vilified to where their recruitment crisis is

01:14:01.840 --> 01:14:04.439
as bad, if not worse. So if you are going to

01:14:04.439 --> 01:14:07.060
make proactive changes, yes, it's going to cost

01:14:07.060 --> 01:14:08.880
some money up front. You want to build a new

01:14:08.880 --> 01:14:11.359
school in your city? It's going to cost a lot

01:14:11.359 --> 01:14:13.739
of money up front. But then children are going

01:14:13.739 --> 01:14:17.130
to learn for decades after that. I think this

01:14:17.130 --> 01:14:19.369
is an important thing. When O2X came to you,

01:14:19.409 --> 01:14:21.729
and I've had Adam and some of the guys on here

01:14:21.729 --> 01:14:25.210
before, great group of people, great mission.

01:14:25.270 --> 01:14:27.350
I know they're doing a lot of good with you and

01:14:27.350 --> 01:14:29.789
Boston and some of these other areas. There is

01:14:29.789 --> 01:14:32.750
a dollar amount attached to that initially, but

01:14:32.750 --> 01:14:36.390
you can't look at everything with a fiscal year

01:14:36.390 --> 01:14:40.590
view. You have to, as the saying that I always

01:14:40.590 --> 01:14:43.289
butcher, plant the seed of the tree under which

01:14:43.289 --> 01:14:45.729
the shade you'll never know. You've got to invest.

01:14:46.329 --> 01:14:48.710
Long term. So that is for your people and then

01:14:48.710 --> 01:14:50.989
for the people that you serve as well. So these

01:14:50.989 --> 01:14:52.989
proactive initiatives that you've taken, I'm

01:14:52.989 --> 01:14:55.170
sure the HUS system, again, had a large dollar

01:14:55.170 --> 01:14:58.109
amount up front. But what was the cost of all

01:14:58.109 --> 01:15:00.449
the lawsuits attached to all those wrecks prior?

01:15:00.970 --> 01:15:03.510
That's what's not happening now for years and

01:15:03.510 --> 01:15:05.850
years and years. So it's a really interesting

01:15:05.850 --> 01:15:08.569
perspective because a lot of our leadership have

01:15:08.569 --> 01:15:10.750
to develop that courage to go to their cities

01:15:10.750 --> 01:15:13.050
and counties and say, yes, I do need the money

01:15:13.050 --> 01:15:16.119
for. X amount of people spread over the next

01:15:16.119 --> 01:15:19.479
three years to create this D shift. But let me

01:15:19.479 --> 01:15:21.460
show you where we're wasting money. That money

01:15:21.460 --> 01:15:24.000
wastage will stop. And now we'll actually be

01:15:24.000 --> 01:15:27.060
saving you money from year three, four, whatever

01:15:27.060 --> 01:15:29.619
it ends up being. Yep. And I think that that

01:15:29.619 --> 01:15:32.159
amortization is exactly what you're saying. That's

01:15:32.159 --> 01:15:36.619
necessary in any pragmatic change you're going

01:15:36.619 --> 01:15:39.779
to make in any business. School -wise, I went

01:15:39.779 --> 01:15:42.930
completely outside of the fire service. I have

01:15:42.930 --> 01:15:46.569
an MBA. So I think of things in dollar and cents.

01:15:47.010 --> 01:15:50.489
But I'm also a long -term investor. I don't own

01:15:50.489 --> 01:15:54.869
a single stock, right? And that's on purpose

01:15:54.869 --> 01:15:59.329
because I believe that small, consistent increase

01:15:59.329 --> 01:16:02.409
over time will pay you a better return. Sometimes

01:16:02.409 --> 01:16:04.970
that means there's a large lump sum that I go

01:16:04.970 --> 01:16:08.329
and I put in all to get a better return in the

01:16:08.329 --> 01:16:10.619
end. And that's the same thing that - you need

01:16:10.619 --> 01:16:12.180
to think about when you're doing these programs.

01:16:12.479 --> 01:16:15.460
Like you said, Haas. I want to say our contract

01:16:15.460 --> 01:16:17.439
with Haas, don't quote me, but I want to say

01:16:17.439 --> 01:16:22.119
it's like $250 ,000 a year. If they prevent one

01:16:22.119 --> 01:16:26.239
wreck of two engines hitting each other, I mean,

01:16:26.279 --> 01:16:29.180
an engine right now is $1 .25 million. So $2

01:16:29.180 --> 01:16:33.899
.5 million saved for $200 ,000 spent, you tell

01:16:33.899 --> 01:16:37.380
me, a great investment. Now, what if you had

01:16:37.380 --> 01:16:39.359
that this year, but you didn't have a wreck?

01:16:39.840 --> 01:16:42.659
Okay, great. Maybe the program worked, whatever.

01:16:42.779 --> 01:16:45.359
And yeah, you're down 200 ,000, but the next

01:16:45.359 --> 01:16:47.500
year you have two of them. Now you're back up.

01:16:47.539 --> 01:16:50.359
And that's the same way it works with these shifts.

01:16:50.819 --> 01:16:53.319
Even more so because it's the human body you're

01:16:53.319 --> 01:16:56.579
talking about. It's someone's livelihood. It's

01:16:56.579 --> 01:16:59.760
someone's health. It's all those things. I'm

01:16:59.760 --> 01:17:04.920
going to go completely off topic, but on topic

01:17:04.920 --> 01:17:09.170
and say today's generation. I'm sorry. They play

01:17:09.170 --> 01:17:15.310
so much emphasis on their time and their time

01:17:15.310 --> 01:17:17.369
with their family and their time with their hobbies.

01:17:17.430 --> 01:17:20.930
That to them is a million times more important

01:17:20.930 --> 01:17:27.170
than a bigger paycheck or the prestige of this

01:17:27.170 --> 01:17:30.550
job or this title or whatever the case may be.

01:17:31.930 --> 01:17:34.909
And my kids, all three of them grew up around

01:17:34.909 --> 01:17:37.670
the fire service. None of them. are showing really

01:17:37.670 --> 01:17:40.750
any interest in the fire service because they

01:17:40.750 --> 01:17:44.369
don't want to work 48 56 hours a week and you

01:17:44.369 --> 01:17:46.970
know all the other things that come along with

01:17:46.970 --> 01:17:51.909
it um so fire departments need to wake up and

01:17:51.909 --> 01:17:53.729
they need to start looking at all these things

01:17:53.729 --> 01:17:55.409
as you're saying they need to start thinking

01:17:55.409 --> 01:17:58.930
long term not just savings but long term are

01:17:58.930 --> 01:18:01.409
like you said are you going to be able to exist

01:18:01.409 --> 01:18:05.390
um because People are leaving some of these organizations,

01:18:05.670 --> 01:18:08.050
like you said, in droves, and they're leaving

01:18:08.050 --> 01:18:12.970
them in really, really bad positions. And that's

01:18:12.970 --> 01:18:14.949
scary to think about if you're a resident of

01:18:14.949 --> 01:18:18.590
that area. Absolutely. Well, I want to touch

01:18:18.590 --> 01:18:22.470
on a couple of pretty career incidents that you've

01:18:22.470 --> 01:18:24.569
had in your city. And you've kind of alluded

01:18:24.569 --> 01:18:27.350
to the fact that it did have a very... you know,

01:18:27.350 --> 01:18:30.109
strong impact on your men and women. Let's start

01:18:30.109 --> 01:18:32.829
with January 6th. I've got a friend of mine who

01:18:32.829 --> 01:18:34.649
was Capitol Police at the time. I think he was

01:18:34.649 --> 01:18:38.289
in the dispatch area at that moment. But apolitically,

01:18:38.310 --> 01:18:40.810
removing politics from it as a first responder,

01:18:41.050 --> 01:18:44.050
you know, that incidence happens in your area.

01:18:44.210 --> 01:18:46.069
You know, people are hurt, people are killed,

01:18:46.149 --> 01:18:50.560
you know, and then because of the... politicizing

01:18:50.560 --> 01:18:52.640
of it, I would argue there was a lot of moral

01:18:52.640 --> 01:18:54.720
injury from the fact that it was suppressed and

01:18:54.720 --> 01:18:57.439
downplayed, et cetera, et cetera. So that's just

01:18:57.439 --> 01:19:00.100
kind of my perspective. Talk to me from a, you

01:19:00.100 --> 01:19:02.960
know, DC fire and EMS response, you know, what

01:19:02.960 --> 01:19:05.260
that day was like for you guys and then the impact

01:19:05.260 --> 01:19:10.319
that that had on your men and women. So to best

01:19:10.319 --> 01:19:12.380
start that conversation, I'm going to start at

01:19:12.380 --> 01:19:14.560
the end and then go back to the beginning. Please.

01:19:14.619 --> 01:19:17.850
I'm going to go to January 7th. January 7th,

01:19:17.850 --> 01:19:19.989
I was at the training school and I was teaching

01:19:19.989 --> 01:19:23.510
our newest recruits. It was their first week.

01:19:24.390 --> 01:19:27.550
The risk management, cancer reduction, heart

01:19:27.550 --> 01:19:30.189
health, behavioral health class that I do for

01:19:30.189 --> 01:19:33.369
every single new recruit class. And in the middle

01:19:33.369 --> 01:19:35.609
of that conversation, the fire chief and a couple

01:19:35.609 --> 01:19:37.729
of members of the executive staff walked in.

01:19:38.329 --> 01:19:43.439
And, of course, I gave the floor to them. Artief

01:19:43.439 --> 01:19:46.680
began talking about the prior day, January 6th,

01:19:46.680 --> 01:19:50.659
and he began talking about how devastating that

01:19:50.659 --> 01:19:53.460
was to the city. And the correlation he gave

01:19:53.460 --> 01:19:55.800
was that our generation would remember that like

01:19:55.800 --> 01:19:59.479
the 68 riots. And I looked at him and I went,

01:19:59.579 --> 01:20:02.680
oh, my God. And he he just he was like, what?

01:20:02.739 --> 01:20:04.539
I was like, do you want to know how effed up

01:20:04.539 --> 01:20:06.960
I am? He goes, what do you mean? I was like,

01:20:06.979 --> 01:20:10.180
how effed up my head is and how just accepting

01:20:10.180 --> 01:20:13.600
I am to. this being an urban environment, et

01:20:13.600 --> 01:20:17.560
cetera. January 6th, I was at work, and I have

01:20:17.560 --> 01:20:20.819
to admit, while it was unusual, it wasn't like

01:20:20.819 --> 01:20:25.000
it was unusual. Does that make sense? It does.

01:20:25.039 --> 01:20:27.199
And I don't mean to downplay the incident. It's

01:20:27.199 --> 01:20:32.840
just you're so used to chaos that chaos was...

01:20:34.199 --> 01:20:37.619
And that was not expected, but chaos is expected.

01:20:38.079 --> 01:20:41.079
And without educating myself further, I just

01:20:41.079 --> 01:20:44.460
chalked it up as just another crazy day, you

01:20:44.460 --> 01:20:47.699
know. So I had to work backwards from that. I

01:20:47.699 --> 01:20:49.479
had to start thinking, like, how in the world

01:20:49.479 --> 01:20:52.560
did I get there mentally? And obviously, it's

01:20:52.560 --> 01:20:55.939
the desensitization of, you know, years and years

01:20:55.939 --> 01:20:59.079
and years of horrible, horrible things that you

01:20:59.079 --> 01:21:03.989
come across. But it's also a mindset that we

01:21:03.989 --> 01:21:06.390
just should accept these things and we should

01:21:06.390 --> 01:21:08.710
expect these things when really as a society,

01:21:08.869 --> 01:21:12.130
should we? No, we shouldn't. We're not a third

01:21:12.130 --> 01:21:14.189
world country. We're the United States of America.

01:21:15.409 --> 01:21:18.090
So with that particular incident, I'll go back

01:21:18.090 --> 01:21:21.659
to the summer before when we had the. the first

01:21:21.659 --> 01:21:23.779
amendment activities i think is what we referred

01:21:23.779 --> 01:21:26.760
to them as um and some of those nights were were

01:21:26.760 --> 01:21:28.359
crazy some of those nights there were a couple

01:21:28.359 --> 01:21:31.399
buildings on fire in the same block and i was

01:21:31.399 --> 01:21:33.520
an incident commander handling a couple of these

01:21:33.520 --> 01:21:35.880
things at the exact same time with the companies

01:21:35.880 --> 01:21:38.579
that i had and we went through that for months

01:21:38.579 --> 01:21:42.079
um so again that just became the norm became

01:21:42.079 --> 01:21:45.640
what we did um you lead up to the days leading

01:21:45.640 --> 01:21:49.680
up to january 6th we were on a little bit Higher

01:21:49.680 --> 01:21:53.439
alert, just because of the contention in the

01:21:53.439 --> 01:21:56.119
country, so to speak, and us being the nation's

01:21:56.119 --> 01:21:57.760
capital where this vote was going to happen.

01:21:58.279 --> 01:22:00.960
We had Proud Boys in the city. We had Antifa.

01:22:01.039 --> 01:22:04.340
We had BLM. We had other just independent groups.

01:22:05.199 --> 01:22:07.920
And so we had a full incident management team

01:22:07.920 --> 01:22:11.520
in place. And I worked a few of those days, including

01:22:11.520 --> 01:22:15.279
January 5th, the night before, as the recon chief.

01:22:15.479 --> 01:22:18.659
So your job doing that is literally to ride around

01:22:18.659 --> 01:22:21.000
all downtown and just kind of finger on the pulse,

01:22:21.039 --> 01:22:24.439
see how things are going. And there were moments

01:22:24.439 --> 01:22:29.140
that night on January 5th where it got. sketchy,

01:22:29.140 --> 01:22:32.380
I would say. Myself and my aide are sitting in

01:22:32.380 --> 01:22:34.340
the middle of the street, and you've got people

01:22:34.340 --> 01:22:36.899
from one group on one sidewalk, people from another

01:22:36.899 --> 01:22:38.899
group, and they're throwing things at each other,

01:22:39.000 --> 01:22:40.420
and they're yelling, and they're screaming, and

01:22:40.420 --> 01:22:43.619
you know you're one second away from utter chaos.

01:22:44.279 --> 01:22:50.119
But again, it's just where we were, and in certain

01:22:50.119 --> 01:22:54.260
cases still are, which is scary. Not in our city,

01:22:54.319 --> 01:22:56.670
right? We haven't had anything. even remotely

01:22:56.670 --> 01:23:00.869
close to that since thankfully um but then you

01:23:00.869 --> 01:23:03.930
roll into the next day and it was another work

01:23:03.930 --> 01:23:06.970
day like i said uh for me i was in the fourth

01:23:06.970 --> 01:23:09.149
battalion which means i was not near the capitol

01:23:09.149 --> 01:23:11.710
i had an entire battalion i was running we had

01:23:11.710 --> 01:23:13.609
incidents we were running while that was going

01:23:13.609 --> 01:23:16.810
on it took that conversation with the fire chief

01:23:16.810 --> 01:23:20.189
the next day for me to actually go back and review

01:23:21.050 --> 01:23:23.630
what happened and to try and see it from the

01:23:23.630 --> 01:23:27.449
general public side. And oh my goodness, I mean,

01:23:27.489 --> 01:23:30.390
we were so lucky as an agency that no one was

01:23:30.390 --> 01:23:33.050
hurt. None of our members were hurt physically.

01:23:33.430 --> 01:23:36.789
We had one chief that was inside the Capitol

01:23:36.789 --> 01:23:40.649
by themselves, just because that's how the IMT

01:23:40.649 --> 01:23:45.090
was broken down. He was the manager of that particular

01:23:45.090 --> 01:23:49.130
branch. When things went crazy, he was still

01:23:49.130 --> 01:23:51.529
inside. So our guys had to find a way to get

01:23:51.529 --> 01:23:55.109
him safely outside. Our guys were dealing with

01:23:55.109 --> 01:23:57.930
calls all the way around the Capitol, inside

01:23:57.930 --> 01:24:00.489
and outside, for injuries, for this, for that.

01:24:00.869 --> 01:24:04.770
We had, obviously, the bombs that we were dealing

01:24:04.770 --> 01:24:08.310
with, a couple, well, bomb threats that we were

01:24:08.310 --> 01:24:11.090
dealing with a block away and everything else.

01:24:11.130 --> 01:24:15.699
It was just... Utter chaos for our people. We,

01:24:15.880 --> 01:24:18.579
however, as an agency, I think, did a tremendous

01:24:18.579 --> 01:24:22.260
job following that event. We continued to check

01:24:22.260 --> 01:24:26.340
on our members. We stayed just on top of that

01:24:26.340 --> 01:24:28.720
in a progressive manner, in a proactive manner.

01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:33.739
We were very transparent with our members. Anything

01:24:33.739 --> 01:24:35.960
and everything that we knew that we could say

01:24:35.960 --> 01:24:38.340
that wasn't classified or anything, we shared

01:24:38.340 --> 01:24:44.250
with them. On the whole, thankfully, I don't

01:24:44.250 --> 01:24:51.130
think I could chalk one lasting moral injury

01:24:51.130 --> 01:24:54.189
to that. To the best of my knowledge, no one

01:24:54.189 --> 01:24:56.569
separated from the agency as a result of that.

01:24:56.729 --> 01:24:58.789
To the best of my knowledge, no one has been

01:24:58.789 --> 01:25:03.329
impatiented because of that. I'm sure, I would

01:25:03.329 --> 01:25:05.470
never know this, but I'm sure people have talked

01:25:05.470 --> 01:25:07.449
about it with our behavioral health people and

01:25:07.449 --> 01:25:11.680
our peer support and things like that. And again,

01:25:11.819 --> 01:25:15.359
I give a lot of credit to our agency for the

01:25:15.359 --> 01:25:19.560
way we responded to that and what we did. And

01:25:19.560 --> 01:25:22.319
I'm not knocking Capitol Police when I'm getting

01:25:22.319 --> 01:25:24.279
ready to say, but they've had two or three people

01:25:24.279 --> 01:25:27.060
commit suicide as a result of that. And again,

01:25:27.119 --> 01:25:29.560
I'm not saying that that's a result of what they

01:25:29.560 --> 01:25:31.539
did or didn't do. I'm just saying that thankfully

01:25:31.539 --> 01:25:35.619
we did not endure that. Yeah, I mean, that's

01:25:35.619 --> 01:25:38.340
firstly that I think is a testament to. All the

01:25:38.340 --> 01:25:39.840
things that you've got in place when it comes

01:25:39.840 --> 01:25:41.840
to the mental health and the culture within your

01:25:41.840 --> 01:25:44.119
department to be able to talk about it, because,

01:25:44.159 --> 01:25:45.840
you know, depending on where you were that day,

01:25:45.899 --> 01:25:49.369
I'm sure you're. Your moral injury potential

01:25:49.369 --> 01:25:52.229
was either very large or completely disconnected.

01:25:52.489 --> 01:25:56.109
But I know, speaking to my Capitol Police friend,

01:25:56.430 --> 01:26:00.189
you have this happen, and then on a national

01:26:00.189 --> 01:26:04.229
stage, it's downplayed. It's almost denied. And

01:26:04.229 --> 01:26:06.630
these were real first responders, I mean, predominantly

01:26:06.630 --> 01:26:09.350
law enforcement in this case. that were hung

01:26:09.350 --> 01:26:11.770
out to dry, that were given those support. And

01:26:11.770 --> 01:26:13.869
then after it happened, oh, that didn't really

01:26:13.869 --> 01:26:16.989
happen. It was barely nothing. So I'm so glad

01:26:16.989 --> 01:26:18.710
to hear from on the fire and EMS side, there

01:26:18.710 --> 01:26:20.970
wasn't that big impact. But I mean, you know,

01:26:20.970 --> 01:26:25.569
sadly, the suicides are clearly, you know, one

01:26:25.569 --> 01:26:29.489
byproduct of a different entire culture that

01:26:29.489 --> 01:26:31.770
maybe didn't have that same kind of support.

01:26:31.770 --> 01:26:34.470
And certainly from the higher level nationally.

01:26:35.670 --> 01:26:38.489
that, you know, organizational betrayal. I mean,

01:26:38.529 --> 01:26:41.130
you put on that uniform every day to protect,

01:26:41.449 --> 01:26:43.930
you do your job, and then you get thrown under

01:26:43.930 --> 01:26:45.890
the bus at the end of it, which we all know,

01:26:46.029 --> 01:26:48.250
whatever your example is in your particular department,

01:26:48.649 --> 01:26:52.029
organizational betrayal can be a huge, huge impact

01:26:52.029 --> 01:26:55.210
when it comes to mental health. Absolutely, it

01:26:55.210 --> 01:26:59.270
can. And again, I think that... Our partners

01:26:59.270 --> 01:27:01.909
at the Capitol did the best that they could as

01:27:01.909 --> 01:27:04.949
an agency for their people. I think a lot of

01:27:04.949 --> 01:27:08.789
what you're saying holds a lot of weight. Gaslighting

01:27:08.789 --> 01:27:10.850
is real. And when you tell someone that something

01:27:10.850 --> 01:27:13.329
they experienced, that they didn't experience

01:27:13.329 --> 01:27:15.649
it, and then you get them twisting that inside

01:27:15.649 --> 01:27:17.329
their head to where they're questioning their

01:27:17.329 --> 01:27:19.890
own reality, just imagine what that ultimately

01:27:19.890 --> 01:27:22.350
leads to. And I'm not saying the Capitol Police

01:27:22.350 --> 01:27:24.630
themselves told their people it didn't happen,

01:27:24.670 --> 01:27:28.899
but society 100 % did. The news. Depending on

01:27:28.899 --> 01:27:30.560
which network you were looking at, definitely

01:27:30.560 --> 01:27:33.520
did. And again, I'm not going political with

01:27:33.520 --> 01:27:38.800
that. It is what it is. Again, me, right? Like

01:27:38.800 --> 01:27:41.939
I had blinders on. I had blinders on and I was

01:27:41.939 --> 01:27:47.800
there working that day. I just was, I guess,

01:27:47.840 --> 01:27:51.779
a few blocks too many north of where it occurred

01:27:51.779 --> 01:27:55.939
to have been drawn down in it. So it didn't hit

01:27:55.939 --> 01:27:58.350
me the same way it hit. the chief that stuck

01:27:58.350 --> 01:28:02.109
inside capital you know um yeah there's a great

01:28:02.109 --> 01:28:04.510
one hour video on youtube if you ever want to

01:28:04.510 --> 01:28:07.649
watch it uh our agency did it was all about the

01:28:07.649 --> 01:28:10.329
response to that chief donnelly has a lot to

01:28:10.329 --> 01:28:12.829
say in it chief mccoy who was our special operations

01:28:12.829 --> 01:28:15.430
deputy he's now an assistant had a lot to say

01:28:15.430 --> 01:28:18.329
about it um but it'll really show you from the

01:28:18.329 --> 01:28:21.789
fire department's perspective what that day was

01:28:21.789 --> 01:28:24.550
like um it's a really really good video that

01:28:24.550 --> 01:28:27.460
we shot in -house I'm going to have to watch

01:28:27.460 --> 01:28:29.960
that. It's interesting how you kind of had that

01:28:29.960 --> 01:28:33.260
aha moment on the 7th. I think I wrote about

01:28:33.260 --> 01:28:35.699
this in one of my books. I'm sure I did. There

01:28:35.699 --> 01:28:39.260
was a moment kind of towards the end of my tenure

01:28:39.260 --> 01:28:42.000
at the second last department I was at. So we're

01:28:42.000 --> 01:28:44.819
talking Orange County, urban environment, Orlando,

01:28:45.159 --> 01:28:47.760
the bad side of Orlando, the part that the tourists

01:28:47.760 --> 01:28:52.239
don't see. And I think I had a late relief. So

01:28:52.239 --> 01:28:56.380
I went on this call. And it was for a body in

01:28:56.380 --> 01:28:58.880
a dumpster. And our medic at the time, Maria,

01:28:59.100 --> 01:29:02.460
you know, she actually went and observed obvious

01:29:02.460 --> 01:29:05.800
signs of no obvious signs of life, caught it

01:29:05.800 --> 01:29:07.979
right there. And then we came back and we were

01:29:07.979 --> 01:29:10.619
talking about getting breakfast. And it just,

01:29:10.720 --> 01:29:14.460
I, I kind of had this moment. I'm like, fucking

01:29:14.460 --> 01:29:17.979
hell. Like we literally went about our day. Well,

01:29:18.039 --> 01:29:20.000
there's this, you know, if she was a sex worker.

01:29:20.060 --> 01:29:22.359
So this young woman is lying dead in this dumpster.

01:29:22.890 --> 01:29:25.350
And it didn't even raise an eyebrow to us. And

01:29:25.350 --> 01:29:27.270
it's not that we aren't compassionate, because

01:29:27.270 --> 01:29:29.109
I can tell you, everyone on scene that day was

01:29:29.109 --> 01:29:32.810
a good paramedic or EMT. They were full of compassion

01:29:32.810 --> 01:29:36.189
and empathy. But it was that dulling of the senses,

01:29:36.210 --> 01:29:38.470
like you said, when you're used to that kind

01:29:38.470 --> 01:29:42.390
of violence and tragedy year in, year out, you

01:29:42.390 --> 01:29:45.510
know, your barometer becomes completely skewed.

01:29:45.550 --> 01:29:48.680
And at that moment, it was so normal. that she

01:29:48.680 --> 01:29:50.720
went, she checked, she came back and we had this

01:29:50.720 --> 01:29:53.359
conversation about breakfast. And that was a

01:29:53.359 --> 01:29:55.460
real aha moment for me that kind of parallels

01:29:55.460 --> 01:29:59.439
what you're talking about. And it's sad when

01:29:59.439 --> 01:30:02.539
that hits you, right? Like I, at least it was

01:30:02.539 --> 01:30:07.420
for me because I have a heart. I believe I'm

01:30:07.420 --> 01:30:10.060
a compassionate person. I would do anything in

01:30:10.060 --> 01:30:14.239
the world for anyone. And again, to sit there

01:30:14.239 --> 01:30:17.630
and look yourself in the mirror and say, And

01:30:17.630 --> 01:30:21.689
I am this flawed because of this. That stings,

01:30:21.689 --> 01:30:28.409
you know. But I think that's also important to

01:30:28.409 --> 01:30:31.770
have in work, right? Like you have to have the

01:30:31.770 --> 01:30:38.409
to emotionally disconnect things. When it comes

01:30:38.409 --> 01:30:41.550
back, I firmly believe that if you're not intentional

01:30:41.550 --> 01:30:43.670
about talking and you're not intentional about

01:30:43.670 --> 01:30:46.930
decompressing and purging. That stuff that's

01:30:46.930 --> 01:30:50.050
accumulated in you, I feel bad for you when it

01:30:50.050 --> 01:30:52.710
breaks. I'll talk briefly about when it broke

01:30:52.710 --> 01:30:57.810
for me. In 2019, my oldest son, the oldest one,

01:30:57.970 --> 01:31:00.470
the one that just passed back in January, went

01:31:00.470 --> 01:31:04.609
through a series of seizures and just this one

01:31:04.609 --> 01:31:08.620
characteristic, like shouldn't have lived. situation

01:31:08.620 --> 01:31:12.199
um he was seizing for over 40 hours straight

01:31:12.199 --> 01:31:15.279
um now defining season that they weren't all

01:31:15.279 --> 01:31:18.359
grand mal you know just that constant erratic

01:31:18.359 --> 01:31:22.520
brain activity um it got to the point where the

01:31:22.520 --> 01:31:25.060
doctors at johns hopkins had told us hey you

01:31:25.060 --> 01:31:27.079
know you need to go ahead and say bye like the

01:31:27.079 --> 01:31:29.359
only thing that we're we can do at this point

01:31:29.359 --> 01:31:31.779
is almost like a computer and do a hard reset

01:31:31.779 --> 01:31:34.380
like they basically had to kill him in order

01:31:34.380 --> 01:31:38.819
to to see what would happen um so my wife and

01:31:38.819 --> 01:31:41.279
i were standing in the corner of the room and

01:31:41.279 --> 01:31:45.020
when they did that and you heard that beep and

01:31:45.020 --> 01:31:47.420
then you started watching them work him it was

01:31:47.420 --> 01:31:52.319
like i saw movie or any other psychological thriller

01:31:52.319 --> 01:31:55.520
where i'm watching what i'm watching and all

01:31:55.520 --> 01:31:59.779
i'm seeing are the hundreds and hundreds of incidents

01:31:59.779 --> 01:32:02.439
that i've run through the years where CPR was

01:32:02.439 --> 01:32:04.680
involved or something, you know, like that. Just

01:32:04.680 --> 01:32:08.079
weird stuff that I had no idea was still in my

01:32:08.079 --> 01:32:10.680
head. I mean, I was seeing kids. I was seeing

01:32:10.680 --> 01:32:12.659
old people. I was seeing people in car wrecks.

01:32:12.739 --> 01:32:15.199
I was seeing people that had pulled out of buildings.

01:32:15.340 --> 01:32:19.300
I mean, just everything. And after about five

01:32:19.300 --> 01:32:20.859
minutes, I couldn't take it. I went out in the

01:32:20.859 --> 01:32:22.840
hall and I called one of my fire service mentors.

01:32:23.100 --> 01:32:25.819
I actually called him Pops. And he was like,

01:32:25.880 --> 01:32:28.359
dude, I'm so jacked up. And I wasn't saying that.

01:32:28.399 --> 01:32:31.609
I was saying a lot more. I guess, aggressive

01:32:31.609 --> 01:32:34.409
words. And he calmed me down. He's like, what

01:32:34.409 --> 01:32:36.909
is going on? And I told him and he went, dude,

01:32:37.010 --> 01:32:39.750
you need to stop. And I was like, what? He goes,

01:32:39.829 --> 01:32:42.390
you were doing your job. You know what I mean?

01:32:42.409 --> 01:32:45.149
Like if you couldn't do your job in those moments,

01:32:45.229 --> 01:32:47.010
blah, blah, blah, blah. And he was right, right?

01:32:47.109 --> 01:32:49.489
Like every single one of those moments, every

01:32:49.489 --> 01:32:51.710
single one of those events, everything that came

01:32:51.710 --> 01:32:54.539
back. I was doing my job and I couldn't be overly

01:32:54.539 --> 01:32:56.359
emotional. I definitely couldn't be like I was

01:32:56.359 --> 01:32:59.119
there in that room. I had a job to do. But on

01:32:59.119 --> 01:33:02.039
the other side of that, I didn't do my job. I

01:33:02.039 --> 01:33:04.500
didn't get it off my chest because I didn't even

01:33:04.500 --> 01:33:07.699
realize it was there, you know. And that's the

01:33:07.699 --> 01:33:09.800
scary part about mental health and everything

01:33:09.800 --> 01:33:12.579
in the fire service in general is we all say,

01:33:12.640 --> 01:33:14.340
well, this is what we do every day. And this

01:33:14.340 --> 01:33:17.260
and that, it doesn't affect me again until it

01:33:17.260 --> 01:33:20.399
does. We had a retired member just a few. now

01:33:20.399 --> 01:33:23.760
about a year ago now i guess um he had been retired

01:33:23.760 --> 01:33:26.100
for we'll say five years it's like five to eight

01:33:26.100 --> 01:33:28.819
years somewhere in there and he sat at the the

01:33:28.819 --> 01:33:30.920
breakfast table was talking to his wife and his

01:33:30.920 --> 01:33:32.579
wife got up and walked away and he picked up

01:33:32.579 --> 01:33:35.600
a gun and he committed suicide um and i don't

01:33:35.600 --> 01:33:37.659
know his personal life i don't know what led

01:33:37.659 --> 01:33:40.640
to that but my heart breaks to think that maybe

01:33:40.640 --> 01:33:43.600
years and years and years of the trauma maybe

01:33:43.600 --> 01:33:46.699
he just never accepted the need to talk about

01:33:46.699 --> 01:33:51.819
that and um that's that's gut -wrenching yeah

01:33:51.819 --> 01:33:53.979
i mean this is the thing this is the conversation

01:33:53.979 --> 01:33:55.739
we've got to have as i alluded to you know when

01:33:55.739 --> 01:33:57.619
we look at the statistics even you know we're

01:33:57.619 --> 01:34:00.479
not including all the men and women that transition

01:34:00.479 --> 01:34:02.899
out at the age where most of these things are

01:34:02.899 --> 01:34:04.720
going to manifest you know the cancers the heart

01:34:04.720 --> 01:34:07.800
diseases all the real you know impacts of our

01:34:07.800 --> 01:34:11.560
job but the other problem is you know As we talk,

01:34:11.619 --> 01:34:13.640
let's talk about him when he was a young man.

01:34:13.840 --> 01:34:16.079
There was probably, you know, a series of events

01:34:16.079 --> 01:34:17.880
and struggles when he was younger that sent him

01:34:17.880 --> 01:34:20.600
into uniform in the first place. That was pushed

01:34:20.600 --> 01:34:22.319
down because they weren't talking about it then.

01:34:22.460 --> 01:34:25.039
Then you've got this whole, you know, 20 plus

01:34:25.039 --> 01:34:29.079
year career in a time where also, you know, masculinity

01:34:29.079 --> 01:34:31.300
is again, suck it up. Don't show any emotion,

01:34:31.579 --> 01:34:34.560
bury it down. And now, you know, you're with

01:34:34.560 --> 01:34:37.060
this crew though. It's healing for you. You know,

01:34:37.079 --> 01:34:38.779
you love what you do. So you've got this identity,

01:34:38.960 --> 01:34:41.979
this purpose, this tribe. And then one day you

01:34:41.979 --> 01:34:44.539
don't and your ID doesn't work and the bay doors

01:34:44.539 --> 01:34:47.100
are closed now for you. And now you're in an

01:34:47.100 --> 01:34:49.680
apartment on your own or whatever the example

01:34:49.680 --> 01:34:52.760
is. And that more often than not is when these

01:34:52.760 --> 01:34:54.539
people are going to start struggling because

01:34:54.539 --> 01:34:57.020
everything that they did kind of build around

01:34:57.020 --> 01:35:00.699
themselves is stripped. And if you're not talking

01:35:00.699 --> 01:35:03.560
about that, that's when it's all going to rear

01:35:03.560 --> 01:35:06.560
its ugly head. And a quote I say a lot on here.

01:35:07.560 --> 01:35:10.260
Mexican proverb, they tried to bury us. They

01:35:10.260 --> 01:35:13.079
didn't know we were seeds. So you can push it

01:35:13.079 --> 01:35:14.880
down all day long, but eventually it's going

01:35:14.880 --> 01:35:18.340
to rear its ugly head. Oh, it will. And I remind

01:35:18.340 --> 01:35:22.560
people, I'll say the non -believers, right? Because

01:35:22.560 --> 01:35:24.399
we still have them. We still have them in our

01:35:24.399 --> 01:35:27.039
agency, the people that, oh man, whatever, get

01:35:27.039 --> 01:35:29.579
away from me with that stuff. And I tell them

01:35:29.579 --> 01:35:32.619
all the time, man, look, I'm 100 % thankful that

01:35:32.619 --> 01:35:34.680
you haven't had to deal with. some kind of mental

01:35:34.680 --> 01:35:36.579
health issue some kind of breakdown whatever

01:35:36.579 --> 01:35:40.539
the case may be but i'm also pretty certain that

01:35:40.539 --> 01:35:43.579
it's coming right like i i just i don't think

01:35:43.579 --> 01:35:47.779
you can make it through a career like this completely

01:35:47.779 --> 01:35:51.460
unscathed um and i just hope that when it does

01:35:51.460 --> 01:35:53.760
come you find a healthy way of dealing with it

01:35:53.760 --> 01:35:56.539
uh and then i just kind of leave it there right

01:35:56.539 --> 01:36:01.380
plant another seed form maybe um But it is something

01:36:01.380 --> 01:36:03.960
that we really, really need to look at. I mean,

01:36:04.020 --> 01:36:06.079
one of the things that we are working on in health

01:36:06.079 --> 01:36:09.819
and safety with our retired firefighters association

01:36:09.819 --> 01:36:13.960
is identifying types of cancers, coupling that

01:36:13.960 --> 01:36:19.819
with time off the job. is the average diagnosis

01:36:19.819 --> 01:36:23.319
for skin cancer. Three years when they're retiring,

01:36:23.500 --> 01:36:24.659
you know what I mean? And going back to that

01:36:24.659 --> 01:36:27.319
conversation of, well, then we need to be covering

01:36:27.319 --> 01:36:31.539
our retirees for a period of 10 years or whatever

01:36:31.539 --> 01:36:33.380
the case may be with presumptive legislation.

01:36:33.939 --> 01:36:37.880
The same thing goes with the behavioral health.

01:36:38.340 --> 01:36:41.180
We've got peer support in place for our people,

01:36:41.260 --> 01:36:43.640
but our retired people can call them as well.

01:36:43.779 --> 01:36:46.399
And I think that's amazing. That's something

01:36:46.399 --> 01:36:50.880
that we offer to our... retirees. I would love

01:36:50.880 --> 01:36:53.399
to see, and I don't know that it'll happen before

01:36:53.399 --> 01:36:55.920
I'm eligible to retire, but I would love to see

01:36:55.920 --> 01:36:57.739
the day where we have our own behavioral health

01:36:57.739 --> 01:37:00.020
center in Washington, D .C. Fire Department,

01:37:00.140 --> 01:37:04.140
where it's our own providers, it's our own people

01:37:04.140 --> 01:37:06.739
that are trauma -informed, have a public service

01:37:06.739 --> 01:37:11.680
kind of specialty. When that comes to fruition,

01:37:11.979 --> 01:37:15.100
the dream is that, again, it's for active and

01:37:15.100 --> 01:37:18.000
retired members. People think I'm crazy when

01:37:18.000 --> 01:37:20.699
I say I think that a place like that should have

01:37:20.699 --> 01:37:23.380
a basketball court, maybe some pool tables and

01:37:23.380 --> 01:37:26.260
this. Think like an FOP on steroids, so to speak.

01:37:26.479 --> 01:37:29.100
And people are like, why? I'm like, because these

01:37:29.100 --> 01:37:31.800
retired people are used to being in a firehouse.

01:37:31.880 --> 01:37:34.180
They're used to being around people that know

01:37:34.180 --> 01:37:37.600
what they've been through and things like that.

01:37:37.880 --> 01:37:41.119
And maybe, just maybe. Having somewhere to go

01:37:41.119 --> 01:37:42.819
and just hang out with the people that you used

01:37:42.819 --> 01:37:46.939
to work with, maybe that helps. I don't know.

01:37:47.199 --> 01:37:50.960
But I don't think it's a bad idea. No, it reminds

01:37:50.960 --> 01:37:53.560
me of Friends of Firefighters in New York. It's

01:37:53.560 --> 01:37:56.439
an old firehouse. So there's counseling and all

01:37:56.439 --> 01:37:58.319
kinds of other stuff, but there's a kitchen.

01:37:58.399 --> 01:38:00.060
I'm sure there's a pool table. There's all the

01:38:00.060 --> 01:38:02.260
things that you would find in a firehouse so

01:38:02.260 --> 01:38:05.239
that when these retirees come, immediately they

01:38:05.239 --> 01:38:07.819
already feel at ease. It's interesting as well

01:38:07.819 --> 01:38:09.699
what you were saying about watching your son

01:38:09.699 --> 01:38:14.699
being worked. God, this was well over a year

01:38:14.699 --> 01:38:18.579
ago now. I was on a flight or literally on the

01:38:18.579 --> 01:38:20.800
plane getting ready to go on a flight back to

01:38:20.800 --> 01:38:23.520
the US from England when I was over there and

01:38:23.520 --> 01:38:27.119
I was on the tarmac at Heathrow. And had my little

01:38:27.119 --> 01:38:29.119
noise canceling headphones on. I'm looking straight

01:38:29.119 --> 01:38:31.739
ahead. And then, you know, we all know that look

01:38:31.739 --> 01:38:33.500
when other people are looking at something like,

01:38:33.579 --> 01:38:35.560
oh, shit, something is going down behind me.

01:38:35.800 --> 01:38:38.979
So I took my headphones off and the last passenger

01:38:38.979 --> 01:38:41.159
shuffled his way on. The doors already closed

01:38:41.159 --> 01:38:45.260
and he just keeled over. So unlike these stories

01:38:45.260 --> 01:38:47.720
that you see where there's, you know, 20 cardiologists

01:38:47.720 --> 01:38:51.100
on the plane, there was no one, no one that had

01:38:51.100 --> 01:38:55.000
pre -hospital experience except me. Now, don't

01:38:55.000 --> 01:38:56.340
get me wrong. There were some good Samaritans

01:38:56.340 --> 01:38:59.579
that, you know, at least knew CPR. And then the

01:38:59.579 --> 01:39:03.840
stewardesses in this particular example, you

01:39:03.840 --> 01:39:07.100
know, had been trained on the, oh my God, what's

01:39:07.100 --> 01:39:09.319
it called? Not the kaleidoscope. I forget now.

01:39:09.460 --> 01:39:12.539
But anyway, one of the BLS airways that they

01:39:12.539 --> 01:39:14.899
had, it'll come to me in a second. So anyway,

01:39:15.079 --> 01:39:18.399
but I end up having to lead this code, you know,

01:39:18.399 --> 01:39:20.779
and I'm a passenger. So, you know, we start off

01:39:20.779 --> 01:39:22.399
with the people that are there, then eventually

01:39:22.399 --> 01:39:25.329
London Fire Brigade get on. They help, you know,

01:39:25.350 --> 01:39:27.649
we drag the gentleman into the galley and we

01:39:27.649 --> 01:39:30.310
keep working him. Then London Ambulance get on

01:39:30.310 --> 01:39:31.930
because those are two separate services. And

01:39:31.930 --> 01:39:33.810
that's when the real, you know, ALS interventions

01:39:33.810 --> 01:39:37.170
begin. And the poor cabin crew, I mean, they

01:39:37.170 --> 01:39:40.949
had to ask permission for the BVM, for the AED.

01:39:41.069 --> 01:39:43.250
So they're trying to get this equipment for us,

01:39:43.289 --> 01:39:45.630
but it's taken them a while to even get it. It's

01:39:45.630 --> 01:39:47.350
in the, you know, like I said, in the aisle.

01:39:47.430 --> 01:39:51.609
So, you know, not the teamwork and the ability

01:39:51.609 --> 01:39:54.479
to... to be efficient that you'd have in a trained

01:39:54.479 --> 01:39:57.739
ems crew for example so anyway point being we

01:39:57.739 --> 01:39:59.659
get in there and it's right when he goes down

01:39:59.659 --> 01:40:01.600
he's got that look that we all know okay that

01:40:01.600 --> 01:40:03.340
we're not going to save this code and i'm a black

01:40:03.340 --> 01:40:05.279
cloud anyway like i'm the grim reaper when it

01:40:05.279 --> 01:40:08.199
comes to cardiac arrest but even to me that was

01:40:08.199 --> 01:40:10.659
like you know this guy whatever's inside is just

01:40:10.659 --> 01:40:13.819
you know It's irreparable. But we work in, you

01:40:13.819 --> 01:40:17.180
know, I'm still doing compressions. The paramedics

01:40:17.180 --> 01:40:20.199
get the advanced airway. I rotate off the chest

01:40:20.199 --> 01:40:22.100
finally, you know, say, hey, is there anything

01:40:22.100 --> 01:40:23.699
else you need me to do right now? And they have

01:40:23.699 --> 01:40:25.699
plenty of people in a small space. So I'm like,

01:40:25.760 --> 01:40:28.439
all right, I'm going to go to my seat then. They

01:40:28.439 --> 01:40:30.239
go, yeah, okay, we'll come find you when we're

01:40:30.239 --> 01:40:34.039
done. So I go wash my hands in the airplane toilets.

01:40:34.220 --> 01:40:37.220
I mean, there was blood in the code too. So wash

01:40:37.220 --> 01:40:39.159
the blood off my hands and I just go sit back

01:40:39.159 --> 01:40:44.100
down. And it hit me. And I was like, what the

01:40:44.100 --> 01:40:46.020
hell is wrong with me? As you said, this is what

01:40:46.020 --> 01:40:49.180
we do every day. And I transitioned out for,

01:40:49.279 --> 01:40:53.239
oh my goodness, what? Five years by that point.

01:40:53.300 --> 01:40:55.439
So I hadn't worked a code in a while. But then

01:40:55.439 --> 01:40:58.199
I was like, oh, this is how you're supposed to

01:40:58.199 --> 01:41:01.640
feel when someone dies. And it was such a jarring

01:41:01.640 --> 01:41:03.399
moment, kind of like yours had. And it ended

01:41:03.399 --> 01:41:06.239
up being good because the crew was so shook.

01:41:06.640 --> 01:41:08.739
And some of them went home right there and then.

01:41:08.859 --> 01:41:12.039
And then the rest. kudos to them carried on doing

01:41:12.039 --> 01:41:14.039
their job they took off and it was an eight and

01:41:14.039 --> 01:41:16.479
a half hour flight back to the u .s and they

01:41:16.479 --> 01:41:19.279
served the passengers but i ended up talking

01:41:19.279 --> 01:41:21.100
they actually upgraded me so i ended up being

01:41:21.100 --> 01:41:23.060
right where they all were and ended up talking

01:41:23.060 --> 01:41:24.760
to them pretty much the whole flight making sure

01:41:24.760 --> 01:41:27.439
they were okay but it was just to understand

01:41:27.439 --> 01:41:31.420
underline what you said what we do at work and

01:41:31.420 --> 01:41:35.560
how we react to it is not normal And we should

01:41:35.560 --> 01:41:37.640
be moved. Now, of course, you can't be moved

01:41:37.640 --> 01:41:41.260
by every single one and constantly be processing

01:41:41.260 --> 01:41:43.920
it. But it will build up to the point where if

01:41:43.920 --> 01:41:46.420
you're not offloading it, you become numb to

01:41:46.420 --> 01:41:50.380
this. And then one code one day will be that

01:41:50.380 --> 01:41:53.140
straw that broke the camel's back. So realizing

01:41:53.140 --> 01:41:56.380
that you are supposed to feel after you fight

01:41:56.380 --> 01:42:00.100
to save someone and they die anyway, giving yourself

01:42:00.100 --> 01:42:04.140
that grace and compassion is imperative. So I

01:42:04.140 --> 01:42:06.340
want to hit one more area and then we'll go to

01:42:06.340 --> 01:42:08.279
some closing questions so I can let you go. You

01:42:08.279 --> 01:42:11.220
also alluded to another large incident, which

01:42:11.220 --> 01:42:14.300
was the absolute tragedy with the military helicopter

01:42:14.300 --> 01:42:17.659
and the plane over your city. So again, if you

01:42:17.659 --> 01:42:20.380
want to kind of talk about that day, how it unfolded

01:42:20.380 --> 01:42:22.579
and then the ripple effect of that on your men

01:42:22.579 --> 01:42:26.239
and women. So I'm going to actually start that

01:42:26.239 --> 01:42:29.899
by being. even more transparent than I've been

01:42:29.899 --> 01:42:31.460
so far. And I've been completely transparent.

01:42:31.760 --> 01:42:36.060
But I didn't even know what happened. My son

01:42:36.060 --> 01:42:41.939
had just passed like four days before that. So

01:42:41.939 --> 01:42:45.739
I was off. And I mean off, obviously. And my

01:42:45.739 --> 01:42:49.140
organization did such a wonderful job of honoring

01:42:49.140 --> 01:42:51.560
that. Here I am, the Deputy Chief of Health and

01:42:51.560 --> 01:42:54.579
Safety. All behavioral health stuff is under

01:42:54.579 --> 01:42:58.279
me. All of that is all under me. And I didn't

01:42:58.279 --> 01:43:00.560
even get a phone call that night. I woke up the

01:43:00.560 --> 01:43:04.479
next morning to probably 15 texts from friends

01:43:04.479 --> 01:43:06.939
of mine across the country. Oh, my God, my thoughts

01:43:06.939 --> 01:43:09.420
and prayers are with your guys. I'm like, what

01:43:09.420 --> 01:43:12.739
the heck happened? You know, so it took me till

01:43:12.739 --> 01:43:14.460
the next morning to even know what happened.

01:43:14.880 --> 01:43:17.600
But of course, I hopped right on the phone and

01:43:17.600 --> 01:43:19.539
I started calling just to make sure things were

01:43:19.539 --> 01:43:22.439
going the way they were. Here's what I learned.

01:43:23.119 --> 01:43:26.810
The night that it occurred. Our men and women

01:43:26.810 --> 01:43:29.449
did the same thing that you're saying. They hopped

01:43:29.449 --> 01:43:33.529
right into action. We recently got a dive team

01:43:33.529 --> 01:43:37.949
barely a year ago. So having them in place was

01:43:37.949 --> 01:43:41.689
amazing. The ground units that were there at

01:43:41.689 --> 01:43:45.270
the casualty collection points, amazing. But

01:43:45.270 --> 01:43:47.289
in talking to some of those people over the next

01:43:47.289 --> 01:43:51.130
couple of weeks, you really find out what they

01:43:51.130 --> 01:43:53.350
were thinking without realizing they were thinking

01:43:53.350 --> 01:43:57.979
it. For instance, I've heard stories of people

01:43:57.979 --> 01:43:59.319
that were sitting there and they're pulling body

01:43:59.319 --> 01:44:00.819
parts out and they're doing this and they're

01:44:00.819 --> 01:44:02.960
doing that. And they're hearing cell phones ring,

01:44:03.060 --> 01:44:05.800
right? Because everybody that's right across

01:44:05.800 --> 01:44:07.899
the river at the airport is calling their loved

01:44:07.899 --> 01:44:11.579
one. And they see a suitcase float by with a

01:44:11.579 --> 01:44:15.479
little ice skating figurine on it. And you know

01:44:15.479 --> 01:44:19.020
that's one of the kids, right? I heard stories

01:44:19.020 --> 01:44:21.500
from people where there wasn't a single whole

01:44:21.500 --> 01:44:24.420
body. that they pulled out it was an arm here

01:44:24.420 --> 01:44:28.819
a leg there some sort of flesh here um i heard

01:44:28.819 --> 01:44:35.140
stories of you know just utter utter devastation

01:44:35.140 --> 01:44:38.220
but none of our people ever stopped there wasn't

01:44:38.220 --> 01:44:42.140
one single person rather it was the night the

01:44:42.140 --> 01:44:45.520
event happened the next morning which was just

01:44:45.520 --> 01:44:48.199
as bad because now the sun's up and you're really

01:44:48.199 --> 01:44:51.840
starting to see the remnants of it Or for the

01:44:51.840 --> 01:44:53.560
several days following that, I want to say it

01:44:53.560 --> 01:44:56.180
was six days total before they got the fuselage

01:44:56.180 --> 01:45:00.600
out of the water. We never had one person show

01:45:00.600 --> 01:45:02.880
up on that scene and say, hey, I can't do this

01:45:02.880 --> 01:45:05.819
or whatever. Every single one of them did it.

01:45:06.420 --> 01:45:10.020
One of the big things that we did was initially.

01:45:11.069 --> 01:45:14.890
We called in as many resources as we could from

01:45:14.890 --> 01:45:16.949
the surrounding areas. We reached out to the

01:45:16.949 --> 01:45:19.689
international. They had people from all over

01:45:19.689 --> 01:45:22.210
the country fly in peer support wise, but we

01:45:22.210 --> 01:45:24.489
knew we needed something much larger than that.

01:45:24.609 --> 01:45:27.569
So we had psychologists and psychiatrists and

01:45:27.569 --> 01:45:29.449
behavioral health therapists and things from

01:45:29.449 --> 01:45:33.489
the region come to the city for our people. We

01:45:33.489 --> 01:45:38.989
set up a standalone temporary behavioral health

01:45:38.989 --> 01:45:42.729
center. where our people could go for weeks and

01:45:42.729 --> 01:45:46.149
weeks and weeks following that. When the dust

01:45:46.149 --> 01:45:49.329
settled, to the best of my knowledge, seven.

01:45:49.529 --> 01:45:54.229
I think we had seven total people that went off

01:45:54.229 --> 01:45:58.689
for more than 48 hours. We gave everyone that

01:45:58.689 --> 01:46:01.029
was there the option for 48 hours, so just kind

01:46:01.029 --> 01:46:04.270
of like decompressing time. The majority of them

01:46:04.270 --> 01:46:07.909
didn't even take that. Some did. We had seven

01:46:07.909 --> 01:46:10.989
people beyond that that stayed off for a little

01:46:10.989 --> 01:46:14.010
longer or whatever for lingering effects of it.

01:46:14.069 --> 01:46:16.630
But not one person has separated from the job

01:46:16.630 --> 01:46:18.710
as a result. Now, that's not to say that a year

01:46:18.710 --> 01:46:20.649
from now, five years from now, 10 years from

01:46:20.649 --> 01:46:23.229
now, we won't. But we're not finished processing

01:46:23.229 --> 01:46:25.350
that either. We're still talking about it. We're

01:46:25.350 --> 01:46:28.979
still working on. After action reports, there's

01:46:28.979 --> 01:46:31.220
an after action report operationally, but there's

01:46:31.220 --> 01:46:33.479
also a behavioral health after action report

01:46:33.479 --> 01:46:36.659
in phases. Phase one was the initial response

01:46:36.659 --> 01:46:39.319
to it and the few days thereafter. Phase two

01:46:39.319 --> 01:46:41.640
was from the day that we stopped working the

01:46:41.640 --> 01:46:44.640
scene until 30 days after, you know, that whole

01:46:44.640 --> 01:46:48.140
PTSD window. And then phase three is from then

01:46:48.140 --> 01:46:53.289
forever. um and that phase three after action

01:46:53.289 --> 01:46:55.569
report is going to make recommendations to the

01:46:55.569 --> 01:46:59.010
agency and to the city council again on things

01:46:59.010 --> 01:47:01.069
like this standalone behavioral health center

01:47:01.069 --> 01:47:04.090
and other things that we recognized we needed

01:47:04.090 --> 01:47:10.029
that we just didn't have um you know i can't

01:47:10.029 --> 01:47:14.430
imagine the devastation that they saw that night

01:47:14.430 --> 01:47:17.470
uh there's still a part of me that in the craziest

01:47:17.470 --> 01:47:20.359
of ways feels bad that i was going through what

01:47:20.359 --> 01:47:24.039
i was going through and i wasn't able to go um

01:47:24.039 --> 01:47:27.420
and i think that that's just that desire to want

01:47:27.420 --> 01:47:30.140
to help that desire to want to be there i wouldn't

01:47:30.140 --> 01:47:31.859
have made a single difference with any of the

01:47:31.859 --> 01:47:35.140
lives that were in the water i know that but

01:47:35.140 --> 01:47:38.600
the lives of my men and women um just knowing

01:47:38.600 --> 01:47:42.140
that they knew i was there um that that kind

01:47:42.140 --> 01:47:45.520
of stings but at the same time i know my life

01:47:45.520 --> 01:47:47.979
was pretty messed up at the time too. And I was

01:47:47.979 --> 01:47:53.039
where I needed to be. But yeah, I mean, I go

01:47:53.039 --> 01:47:55.479
to a lot of firehouses now day in and day out.

01:47:55.880 --> 01:47:58.659
I talk to a lot of our members, obviously my

01:47:58.659 --> 01:48:01.079
battalion chiefs that are under me and some of

01:48:01.079 --> 01:48:03.300
their officers below them. But when I walk into

01:48:03.300 --> 01:48:05.619
a firehouse, I have a conversation just like

01:48:05.619 --> 01:48:07.920
this from the newest rookie all the way up through

01:48:07.920 --> 01:48:10.880
the most senior person on the job in that particular

01:48:10.880 --> 01:48:15.220
firehouse. And I have to say that in the past

01:48:15.220 --> 01:48:17.239
two or three months i haven't even heard one

01:48:17.239 --> 01:48:20.739
person reference it and i don't want to say that

01:48:20.739 --> 01:48:24.260
as it wasn't important i don't want to say that

01:48:24.260 --> 01:48:27.380
as it wasn't catastrophic because i'm sure it

01:48:27.380 --> 01:48:30.640
stings every single one of us our hearts the

01:48:30.640 --> 01:48:33.460
way it did when it initially happened what i

01:48:33.460 --> 01:48:36.420
am saying is that it's a testament to the resiliency

01:48:36.420 --> 01:48:39.659
of our members and how they have the ability

01:48:39.659 --> 01:48:43.409
to go through something like that to hopefully

01:48:43.409 --> 01:48:45.630
reach out to the resources that are in place

01:48:45.630 --> 01:48:48.369
to help them process this stuff. And here we

01:48:48.369 --> 01:48:52.569
are seven months later, and by and whole, you

01:48:52.569 --> 01:48:55.050
know, by and large, they're doing very, very

01:48:55.050 --> 01:48:58.069
well. Well, I think, again, that is a testimony,

01:48:58.109 --> 01:49:00.270
as you said, to all the resources that are in

01:49:00.270 --> 01:49:03.640
place, but also... to the 24 72 you know the

01:49:03.640 --> 01:49:05.920
the rest and recovery is needed to allow the

01:49:05.920 --> 01:49:08.539
brain to process that and the conversations about

01:49:08.539 --> 01:49:10.979
you know what do we bring into the job because

01:49:10.979 --> 01:49:12.920
this is the mistake i think that we make in the

01:49:12.920 --> 01:49:15.380
fire service is you know when it comes to mental

01:49:15.380 --> 01:49:17.619
health they would point to that incident this

01:49:17.619 --> 01:49:20.020
is why you're struggling well what if they had

01:49:20.020 --> 01:49:22.770
you know all kinds of death by a thousand cut

01:49:22.770 --> 01:49:25.670
calls prior to that. They had X, Y, and Z happen

01:49:25.670 --> 01:49:27.829
when they were children. You know, there's all

01:49:27.829 --> 01:49:30.109
these compounding factors. So the more we can

01:49:30.109 --> 01:49:33.189
kind of work on all those pieces, the more resilient

01:49:33.189 --> 01:49:35.829
the people become. And I'm a huge believer in

01:49:35.829 --> 01:49:38.470
post -traumatic growth and forging resilience

01:49:38.470 --> 01:49:41.489
by going through these struggles and even an

01:49:41.489 --> 01:49:44.729
acute event like that. The ability to work through

01:49:44.729 --> 01:49:46.949
it, through ample rest and recovery, through

01:49:46.949 --> 01:49:50.029
no barrier to access when it comes to mental

01:49:50.029 --> 01:49:52.670
health counseling, fitness, all the positive

01:49:52.670 --> 01:49:55.789
outlets, a culture of community, so you're not

01:49:55.789 --> 01:49:57.909
having that kind of toxic environment. I mean,

01:49:57.970 --> 01:50:01.029
these are all such powerful pieces. And what

01:50:01.029 --> 01:50:03.670
you're talking about is it sounds like all that

01:50:03.670 --> 01:50:06.510
preemptive, proactive investment that we talked

01:50:06.510 --> 01:50:10.170
about for the last almost two hours now factored

01:50:10.170 --> 01:50:13.920
into the success of... the men and women that

01:50:13.920 --> 01:50:16.560
responded heroically and their ability to process

01:50:16.560 --> 01:50:20.840
it after. I couldn't agree more. And I think

01:50:20.840 --> 01:50:24.039
that that's, again, that 48 hours, that's something

01:50:24.039 --> 01:50:26.560
that is kind of unheard of in our agency. Our

01:50:26.560 --> 01:50:28.979
behavior health coordinator can give 24 hours

01:50:28.979 --> 01:50:33.079
for extreme events, but we fought for more time

01:50:33.079 --> 01:50:35.640
there because we recognize that right there,

01:50:35.720 --> 01:50:38.600
that need to decompress. You know, that would

01:50:38.600 --> 01:50:41.710
have given someone 12 days, which... is a good

01:50:41.710 --> 01:50:44.630
amount of time to spend with your loved ones

01:50:44.630 --> 01:50:46.770
and to do those things that you need to do to

01:50:46.770 --> 01:50:51.069
emotionally kind of um uncharge from that um

01:50:51.069 --> 01:50:53.369
and again i think that all those things like

01:50:53.369 --> 01:50:57.630
you just said uh played a role in the success

01:50:57.630 --> 01:51:02.890
so far mentally in the members uh on our you

01:51:02.890 --> 01:51:05.979
know in our organization dealing with that the

01:51:05.979 --> 01:51:07.899
one thing that you've talked about time and time

01:51:07.899 --> 01:51:10.180
and time again that i wish the fire service would

01:51:10.180 --> 01:51:13.939
truly embrace is cumulative stress um sarah janky

01:51:13.939 --> 01:51:15.840
talks about it all the time sarah's a really

01:51:15.840 --> 01:51:20.739
good pal of mine and i talk to fire service leaders

01:51:20.739 --> 01:51:23.819
all the time across this nation that like you

01:51:23.819 --> 01:51:27.500
just said they look for this one catastrophic

01:51:27.500 --> 01:51:30.300
event, and that's what they hang their hand on.

01:51:30.500 --> 01:51:32.979
They don't realize that it's that death by a

01:51:32.979 --> 01:51:35.520
thousand cusps, like you said, that get the majority

01:51:35.520 --> 01:51:40.579
of our people. Our own police and fire clinic

01:51:40.579 --> 01:51:43.520
in Washington, D .C., I'm still working with

01:51:43.520 --> 01:51:45.840
them to try and understand that that is a real

01:51:45.840 --> 01:51:49.319
thing in our line of work. Now, I'm not knocking

01:51:49.319 --> 01:51:51.819
them by any means, but I am saying that they,

01:51:51.859 --> 01:51:55.680
too, try to look for this Big event, you know,

01:51:55.720 --> 01:51:57.100
well, you weren't on this, you weren't on that.

01:51:57.140 --> 01:51:59.260
Why in the world are you broken down now? You

01:51:59.260 --> 01:52:03.199
know, you ran that 64 year old CPR. Yeah, I did.

01:52:03.319 --> 01:52:06.340
But that's also, like I said, an hour and a half

01:52:06.340 --> 01:52:10.300
ago, the 1000th time I've run that. Oh, and I'm

01:52:10.300 --> 01:52:13.819
dealing with coming out of my grandmother's hospice

01:52:13.819 --> 01:52:16.060
stay. And that woman looked just like my grandmother,

01:52:16.180 --> 01:52:18.859
whatever the case may be. Like, who are we to

01:52:18.859 --> 01:52:22.340
say what should or shouldn't. break someone?

01:52:22.579 --> 01:52:26.039
Who are we to tell someone what their breaking

01:52:26.039 --> 01:52:28.640
point should be? What if we could just embrace

01:52:28.640 --> 01:52:31.119
the fact that we're all human, we're all individuals,

01:52:31.159 --> 01:52:35.000
we come to this job with a million and one scars

01:52:35.000 --> 01:52:38.079
from throughout our life anyway, and this job

01:52:38.079 --> 01:52:41.180
will scar you more and everyone has a different

01:52:41.180 --> 01:52:44.079
breaking point. And I think that that's very

01:52:44.079 --> 01:52:47.140
important for fire service leaders to hear nationwide

01:52:47.140 --> 01:52:51.949
that you cannot have a list of, well, these types

01:52:51.949 --> 01:52:56.310
of events qualify for, you know, a performance

01:52:56.310 --> 01:52:59.289
of duty or workman's comp mental health breakdown

01:52:59.289 --> 01:53:02.369
that take that idea and shove it where the sun

01:53:02.369 --> 01:53:06.590
doesn't shine. Cause everyone's different. Everyone's

01:53:06.590 --> 01:53:09.130
resiliency is different. Gosh. I mean, there

01:53:09.130 --> 01:53:12.250
are me, we talked about some of the stuff that

01:53:12.250 --> 01:53:13.590
I went through and we didn't talk about everything

01:53:13.590 --> 01:53:16.569
I went through as a kid. And one of the first

01:53:16.569 --> 01:53:21.130
conversations I had with my therapist, she literally

01:53:21.130 --> 01:53:23.729
had tears in her eyes. And I'm like, what is

01:53:23.729 --> 01:53:25.970
going on? She's like, how are you standing? I'm

01:53:25.970 --> 01:53:28.149
like, what do you mean? She's like, I've got

01:53:28.149 --> 01:53:31.189
people in here that completely break down because,

01:53:31.430 --> 01:53:34.789
you know, their husband didn't fill up the car.

01:53:34.909 --> 01:53:37.170
Now, again, I'm being facetious there, but, you

01:53:37.170 --> 01:53:40.029
know, like what in the world? And again, it's

01:53:40.029 --> 01:53:43.430
resiliency, right? It's life has made me as an

01:53:43.430 --> 01:53:45.930
individual have to be this way in order to survive.

01:53:46.829 --> 01:53:48.670
That's the same with every single one of us.

01:53:48.689 --> 01:53:51.670
And every single one of us have a different breaking

01:53:51.670 --> 01:53:56.590
point. And it is okay when someone breaks because

01:53:56.590 --> 01:54:01.409
of something that is so seemingly normal. Yeah.

01:54:01.899 --> 01:54:03.899
I couldn't agree more. I mean, even if you want

01:54:03.899 --> 01:54:06.500
to just use the musculoskeletal injury model

01:54:06.500 --> 01:54:09.199
for a moment, I've had Stuart McGill on the show,

01:54:09.300 --> 01:54:11.880
the back mechanic, they call him. And again,

01:54:12.119 --> 01:54:14.800
we're going back to the shift work and lack of

01:54:14.800 --> 01:54:17.260
recovery now. But he was like, oh, it's not if

01:54:17.260 --> 01:54:19.739
you'll break. If you're not sleeping every third

01:54:19.739 --> 01:54:23.180
day or even less than that with overtime, he

01:54:23.180 --> 01:54:25.630
said, you know, that's when you repair. So if

01:54:25.630 --> 01:54:27.149
you're an aggressive firefighter and you lift

01:54:27.149 --> 01:54:29.529
weights and you train, it's just, you know, where's

01:54:29.529 --> 01:54:31.670
the weak link? So again, like you said, oh, I

01:54:31.670 --> 01:54:33.449
pulled my shoulder picking up my bunker gear.

01:54:33.869 --> 01:54:36.569
Yeah, because that was, you were, you know, 99

01:54:36.569 --> 01:54:39.510
% likelihood of getting hurt by that point. And

01:54:39.510 --> 01:54:41.409
that was the final straw. So whether it's in

01:54:41.409 --> 01:54:44.329
the mind or in the body, you know, it's the cumulative

01:54:44.329 --> 01:54:46.550
events. And then therefore, and then equally

01:54:46.550 --> 01:54:50.840
and oppositely. the lack of ability to rest and

01:54:50.840 --> 01:54:53.260
recover, whether it's healing tendons, ligaments,

01:54:53.279 --> 01:54:56.039
or muscles, or whether it's simply allowing the

01:54:56.039 --> 01:54:59.020
brain to process a trauma and forge that resilience

01:54:59.020 --> 01:55:02.300
in the first place. Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

01:55:02.439 --> 01:55:05.859
I think I'm right now the walking example of

01:55:05.859 --> 01:55:08.899
that. I literally just had someone I haven't

01:55:08.899 --> 01:55:11.319
seen in a few months. I ran into him the other

01:55:11.319 --> 01:55:13.439
day at work and he was like, oh, my God, dude,

01:55:13.539 --> 01:55:15.579
you're beefing up, aren't you? Like, yeah, I've

01:55:15.579 --> 01:55:18.039
gained about 15 pounds since the last week of

01:55:18.039 --> 01:55:20.439
April. He's like, what in the world? Like, dude,

01:55:20.539 --> 01:55:23.920
I can actually lift and sleep now. Day work.

01:55:24.020 --> 01:55:26.640
I live an hour and a half, hour and 45 minutes

01:55:26.640 --> 01:55:29.699
from the city. So an eight hour day. Plus that

01:55:29.699 --> 01:55:32.800
travel time. Oh, and I always like getting to

01:55:32.800 --> 01:55:35.300
work early. So I was at work at 530 in the morning

01:55:35.300 --> 01:55:37.899
means that Monday morning through Friday morning,

01:55:38.020 --> 01:55:40.739
every single week for four years, I was getting

01:55:40.739 --> 01:55:43.880
up at 3 a .m. And I was going to bed about 10.

01:55:44.250 --> 01:55:46.890
So Monday through Friday for four years and about

01:55:46.890 --> 01:55:48.989
five hours a night that I was getting. And that's

01:55:48.989 --> 01:55:51.029
if something didn't wake me up and if all the

01:55:51.029 --> 01:55:54.270
stars aligned perfectly. And I didn't even realize

01:55:54.270 --> 01:55:56.489
it, how much all of my weight training and everything

01:55:56.489 --> 01:55:58.989
else in the gym, like I was just spinning my

01:55:58.989 --> 01:56:01.770
wheels, so to speak. Went back to shift work,

01:56:01.810 --> 01:56:04.130
working once every fourth day. And thankfully,

01:56:04.189 --> 01:56:08.630
I'm in a role that at nighttime, I mean, I supervise

01:56:08.630 --> 01:56:11.810
the entire city for 24 hours at a time. So that

01:56:11.810 --> 01:56:15.430
means. At night, when I finally do try to lay

01:56:15.430 --> 01:56:17.909
down, other than waking up to listen to boxes

01:56:17.909 --> 01:56:21.050
and things like that, I do get to sleep a little

01:56:21.050 --> 01:56:23.930
bit. And then on my days off, I sleep like a

01:56:23.930 --> 01:56:26.710
baby all three nights. Now, I haven't really

01:56:26.710 --> 01:56:28.810
changed anything in the gym. I haven't changed

01:56:28.810 --> 01:56:32.390
what I'm eating. But here I am four months later,

01:56:32.510 --> 01:56:35.010
and I've put 15 pounds of size back on and not

01:56:35.010 --> 01:56:37.569
bad size. Like, there's a direct correlation

01:56:37.569 --> 01:56:41.069
right there that I can 100 % say I'm living proof

01:56:41.069 --> 01:56:45.210
of. Yeah, 100%. Well, I want to go to some quick

01:56:45.210 --> 01:56:47.770
closing questions if you've got time. All right.

01:56:47.789 --> 01:56:49.989
The first one I love to ask, is there a book

01:56:49.989 --> 01:56:51.970
or are there books that you love to recommend?

01:56:52.210 --> 01:56:54.590
It can be related to our discussion today or

01:56:54.590 --> 01:57:00.149
completely unrelated. Hmm. Yes. I just cannot

01:57:00.149 --> 01:57:03.600
think of the title. It's the one that Todd LeDuc

01:57:03.600 --> 01:57:07.020
from LifeScan wrote, but it is probably one of

01:57:07.020 --> 01:57:10.619
the best books I've ever read that has to do

01:57:10.619 --> 01:57:14.340
with everything related to the health and safety

01:57:14.340 --> 01:57:17.560
of firefighters. It's broken down into chapters.

01:57:17.619 --> 01:57:20.020
There's chapters on fitness. There's chapters

01:57:20.020 --> 01:57:23.039
on cardiology. There's chapters on behavioral

01:57:23.039 --> 01:57:26.140
health. There's chapters on annual physicals,

01:57:26.140 --> 01:57:29.279
blood work, et cetera, et cetera. But I think.

01:57:29.659 --> 01:57:32.359
Every fire service leader out there that has

01:57:32.359 --> 01:57:35.140
never found themselves in the space that I found

01:57:35.140 --> 01:57:38.319
myself in the past decade, in the safety office

01:57:38.319 --> 01:57:40.000
and then risk management, health and safety,

01:57:40.100 --> 01:57:42.640
all of that, I think you should read it. It's

01:57:42.640 --> 01:57:44.680
a pretty quick read, but I think it'll open your

01:57:44.680 --> 01:57:49.199
eyes to a lot of things that you probably don't

01:57:49.199 --> 01:57:53.520
even recognize or realize are out there. Another

01:57:53.520 --> 01:57:57.039
one is almost anything by Jocko. I'm a big leadership

01:57:57.039 --> 01:58:00.140
guy. I'm a big... you know, lead from the front

01:58:00.140 --> 01:58:02.819
kind of guy. I absolutely love everything he

01:58:02.819 --> 01:58:05.979
did. Obviously, Oak's book is another leadership

01:58:05.979 --> 01:58:09.680
book. The big takeaway from Oak's book is essentially

01:58:09.680 --> 01:58:12.340
he would not do anything or not order anyone

01:58:12.340 --> 01:58:13.920
to do something that he wouldn't do himself.

01:58:14.100 --> 01:58:16.800
Now, there are a lot of other things in his book,

01:58:16.859 --> 01:58:18.760
but that's probably the biggest thing I got out

01:58:18.760 --> 01:58:26.439
of him. Let me think. Trying to think all the

01:58:26.439 --> 01:58:33.760
books that are sitting. On my shelf. Yeah, I'll

01:58:33.760 --> 01:58:36.239
stop right there. That'll be OK. Absolutely.

01:58:36.560 --> 01:58:41.399
What about films and documentaries? Ah, I would

01:58:41.399 --> 01:58:47.880
say. Documentaries wise, I personally watch a

01:58:47.880 --> 01:58:51.260
lot of military again, leadership documentaries.

01:58:51.520 --> 01:58:57.710
I watch a lot of documentaries and. the fire

01:58:57.710 --> 01:59:00.310
service space you know rather it's looking at

01:59:00.310 --> 01:59:02.489
the way this agency's doing this it's looking

01:59:02.489 --> 01:59:05.829
like that youtube is like my life um i search

01:59:05.829 --> 01:59:07.949
almost anything and everything on youtube and

01:59:07.949 --> 01:59:10.930
i just watch documentary after documentary there

01:59:10.930 --> 01:59:13.590
aren't any that stand out as i'm like hey you

01:59:13.590 --> 01:59:15.869
need to watch this one but it's just what has

01:59:15.869 --> 01:59:18.109
worked for me and it has really opened my eyes

01:59:18.109 --> 01:59:22.189
um movie wise i'm not really a big movie guy

01:59:22.189 --> 01:59:25.859
so i don't know it just reminded me one of the

01:59:25.859 --> 01:59:28.220
best fire service documentaries i've ever seen

01:59:28.220 --> 01:59:30.560
i think it was called inside the fire and if

01:59:30.560 --> 01:59:34.199
i'm not mistaken it was one of the uh the safety

01:59:34.199 --> 01:59:35.899
organizations i think they put it together but

01:59:35.899 --> 01:59:37.619
it was on the history channel and i've got it

01:59:37.619 --> 01:59:41.159
somewhere on dvd but one of the it was it was

01:59:41.159 --> 01:59:44.159
volunteer kind of paid on call and then career

01:59:44.159 --> 01:59:45.979
and one of the career firefighters i remember

01:59:45.979 --> 01:59:50.060
was a a black female firefighter from dc and

01:59:50.060 --> 01:59:53.579
what made it so good was, you know, you saw that

01:59:53.579 --> 01:59:55.479
no matter whether it was someone who just did

01:59:55.479 --> 01:59:58.000
it, you know, if the bell went out off in their

01:59:58.000 --> 02:00:00.199
town, you know, and they're doing, you know,

02:00:00.199 --> 02:00:02.060
chicken dinners to raise money for apparatus

02:00:02.060 --> 02:00:04.239
or whether it was, you know, an urban environment

02:00:04.239 --> 02:00:07.100
like D .C., that they were all the same person,

02:00:07.119 --> 02:00:09.020
you know, with the same calling in their heart.

02:00:09.220 --> 02:00:12.359
I remember the volunteer guy saying every time

02:00:12.359 --> 02:00:14.899
a firefighter crosses the threshold of a burning

02:00:14.899 --> 02:00:17.819
building. they're taking the same risk. And that

02:00:17.819 --> 02:00:19.920
always stayed with me. Whether you're paid, whether

02:00:19.920 --> 02:00:22.420
you're part -time, whether you're a volunteer,

02:00:22.579 --> 02:00:25.119
with all this kind of looking down your nose

02:00:25.119 --> 02:00:27.460
at different groups of firefighters or different

02:00:27.460 --> 02:00:30.520
countries even, every single time that we break

02:00:30.520 --> 02:00:33.500
the threshold, man or woman, we are taking the

02:00:33.500 --> 02:00:37.000
same risk that we will sacrifice possibly even

02:00:37.000 --> 02:00:40.170
our life to try and get to someone. Beautiful.

02:00:40.310 --> 02:00:42.149
All right. Well, then the next question, is there

02:00:42.149 --> 02:00:44.149
a person that you'd recommend to come on this

02:00:44.149 --> 02:00:49.890
podcast as a guest? Mark, M -A -R -C, Cruz. He

02:00:49.890 --> 02:00:53.329
is, oh gosh, he's going to kill me if I get this

02:00:53.329 --> 02:00:56.149
wrong. I want to say it's Houston. It is a city

02:00:56.149 --> 02:00:58.529
in Texas. I want to say it's Houston. If it's

02:00:58.529 --> 02:01:02.189
not, he's going to body slam me for this. Mark

02:01:02.189 --> 02:01:05.789
is a huge proponent of everything, obviously,

02:01:05.890 --> 02:01:07.310
in the behavioral health space. That's what he

02:01:07.310 --> 02:01:12.159
does. But one of his big things he talks about

02:01:12.159 --> 02:01:14.500
is what you've continued to talk about today,

02:01:14.619 --> 02:01:16.939
and that's sleep, sleep, sleep, sleep, sleep.

02:01:17.779 --> 02:01:21.060
One of the things that his organization did that

02:01:21.060 --> 02:01:25.859
I think is amazing for their people is they went

02:01:25.859 --> 02:01:28.539
to noon relief times. They work a 24 -hour shift,

02:01:28.640 --> 02:01:32.100
but their shift change is at noon, not 7 o 'clock

02:01:32.100 --> 02:01:33.819
in the morning or 6 o 'clock in the morning.

02:01:34.100 --> 02:01:36.840
And when I initially heard it, I'm like, you're

02:01:36.840 --> 02:01:39.329
crazy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But think

02:01:39.329 --> 02:01:42.609
about it. Then you only have one night. Doesn't

02:01:42.609 --> 02:01:45.090
matter if you're 2448, 2472. We'll just talk

02:01:45.090 --> 02:01:48.409
about 2472 if my agency did this. Even though

02:01:48.409 --> 02:01:50.710
our relief time is at 7 a .m., the majority of

02:01:50.710 --> 02:01:53.609
us are relieved by 5 or 530. The majority of

02:01:53.609 --> 02:01:55.649
us live more than an hour away from the city.

02:01:56.450 --> 02:01:58.829
So that means you're leaving home at 4 or 4 .30,

02:01:58.930 --> 02:02:01.069
which means you're up at 3 .30 or whatever the

02:02:01.069 --> 02:02:04.109
case may be. So your night before work, let's

02:02:04.109 --> 02:02:06.329
say you went to bed at 9 or 10, you're up at

02:02:06.329 --> 02:02:08.670
3 .30. Now you're probably up for the better

02:02:08.670 --> 02:02:11.829
part of 24 plus hours. You come home, you're

02:02:11.829 --> 02:02:14.390
up all that next day, the whole nine until you

02:02:14.390 --> 02:02:16.569
find, and that's without overtime, a second job,

02:02:16.710 --> 02:02:20.170
a family, whatever the case may be. If you went

02:02:20.170 --> 02:02:22.829
to that noon relief and your idea of early relief

02:02:22.829 --> 02:02:25.770
was 10 .30 or 11. At least you got your normal

02:02:25.770 --> 02:02:28.470
night's sleep before your shift. You know what

02:02:28.470 --> 02:02:31.670
I mean? Then you work through the afternoon and

02:02:31.670 --> 02:02:34.050
into the evening. You go to sleep. You don't

02:02:34.050 --> 02:02:36.210
need to be up again at 5 o 'clock in the morning.

02:02:36.250 --> 02:02:38.050
If you're not on an incident, you sleep. They

02:02:38.050 --> 02:02:40.270
don't chase people out of bed until 8 or 8 .30.

02:02:40.409 --> 02:02:43.609
Just enough time to clean up the firehouse, eat,

02:02:43.810 --> 02:02:48.840
and their relief is there. I'm telling you, people

02:02:48.840 --> 02:02:50.800
look at me like I'm crazy when I mention it,

02:02:50.840 --> 02:02:54.399
but I really think there is something there that

02:02:54.399 --> 02:02:58.699
he's doing that he can quantify and show you

02:02:58.699 --> 02:03:02.640
the results of what they've done. And I think,

02:03:02.880 --> 02:03:05.100
personally, that is the future of the fire service.

02:03:05.659 --> 02:03:08.100
When we talk about health and safety and we talk

02:03:08.100 --> 02:03:11.119
about all those things, a small change like that,

02:03:11.159 --> 02:03:13.979
I think, could go a long way with the sleep of

02:03:13.979 --> 02:03:16.159
our firefighters. I couldn't agree more. I've

02:03:16.159 --> 02:03:18.260
actually talked about that a lot recently. I

02:03:18.260 --> 02:03:20.680
think it might have even been Sarah that really

02:03:20.680 --> 02:03:23.659
put that idea in my head. Sarah and Mark are

02:03:23.659 --> 02:03:26.439
one in the same. I mean, I've got them both on

02:03:26.439 --> 02:03:28.960
speed dial in this phone. I love them both. They

02:03:28.960 --> 02:03:32.800
teach together all the time, side by side. Typically,

02:03:32.880 --> 02:03:34.640
if I'm in their class, I'm picking on both of

02:03:34.640 --> 02:03:39.819
them. But, yeah. Yeah. It is. And when I think

02:03:39.819 --> 02:03:42.199
about because I were, you know, 14 years, I usually

02:03:42.199 --> 02:03:44.659
lived about 70 miles away from the station. So

02:03:44.659 --> 02:03:46.840
I was, you know, commuting into an urban setting,

02:03:46.899 --> 02:03:49.119
you know, so again, I'm getting up at five in

02:03:49.119 --> 02:03:51.699
the morning, you know, so then when you kind

02:03:51.699 --> 02:03:53.880
of take a step back, like, okay, so that first

02:03:53.880 --> 02:03:55.680
day, we're already sleep deprived before we've

02:03:55.680 --> 02:03:58.659
done anything. I also then recently kind of look

02:03:58.659 --> 02:04:01.920
back and was like, on the 2448 schedule, I only

02:04:01.920 --> 02:04:04.779
spent one out of every three mornings with my

02:04:04.779 --> 02:04:07.380
family. The first day I'm awake and gone before

02:04:07.380 --> 02:04:10.260
they wake up. The second day, again, 70 mile

02:04:10.260 --> 02:04:12.539
commute, they're already at work and school by

02:04:12.539 --> 02:04:14.779
the time I get home. The third day is the only

02:04:14.779 --> 02:04:16.979
day I actually see them in the morning. So by

02:04:16.979 --> 02:04:19.939
switching to the noon schedule, the ongoing shift

02:04:19.939 --> 02:04:22.819
wakes up at a normal time, has breakfast with

02:04:22.819 --> 02:04:24.979
their family, you know, takes the kids to school,

02:04:25.100 --> 02:04:27.079
kiss the partner goodbye, and they go off to

02:04:27.079 --> 02:04:30.399
work. And then they go to the station. Off going

02:04:30.399 --> 02:04:32.340
exactly like you've alluded to, they get their

02:04:32.340 --> 02:04:34.760
ass handed to them at night. Now they get to

02:04:34.760 --> 02:04:36.859
sleep. And that's how Anaheim was. We took the

02:04:36.859 --> 02:04:39.529
gear off our... our you know who we were relieving

02:04:39.529 --> 02:04:42.250
so they could just stay and sleep so we never

02:04:42.250 --> 02:04:44.789
made anyone get up in in anaheim when i was there

02:04:44.789 --> 02:04:47.670
so again now you sleep you know nine ten whatever

02:04:47.670 --> 02:04:50.390
needs to happen you wake up you you know you

02:04:50.390 --> 02:04:52.829
do your you know finish off your checkouts or

02:04:52.829 --> 02:04:55.250
replenish whatever needs to happen clean the

02:04:55.250 --> 02:04:58.890
rig and now your relief comes in You get to go

02:04:58.890 --> 02:05:01.090
home without becoming a smear on the side of

02:05:01.090 --> 02:05:02.649
the freeway because you're so sleep deprived.

02:05:03.050 --> 02:05:05.710
And then they have the same routine, but it's

02:05:05.710 --> 02:05:07.550
instead of breakfast, it's lunch. They come in,

02:05:07.569 --> 02:05:09.250
they check out their gear, and then they sit

02:05:09.250 --> 02:05:11.909
down as a crew for lunch instead. So it makes

02:05:11.909 --> 02:05:14.170
perfect sense to me. And I've always said the

02:05:14.170 --> 02:05:17.250
trifecta, if we want to change the fire service,

02:05:17.390 --> 02:05:22.130
amplify the good, is a 24 -72 has to be the first

02:05:22.130 --> 02:05:24.869
thing because hours are hours, simple mathematics.

02:05:25.760 --> 02:05:29.720
Then a noon or 11 a .m. noon start time. And

02:05:29.720 --> 02:05:32.680
then an integrated telehealth style system with

02:05:32.680 --> 02:05:35.840
your dispatch where they take away the non -emergent

02:05:35.840 --> 02:05:38.460
calls that goes through telehealth. That person

02:05:38.460 --> 02:05:40.760
gets the help they need. They never have to go

02:05:40.760 --> 02:05:43.000
to hospital in the first place. And the bed stays

02:05:43.000 --> 02:05:45.960
open. Oh, you do? Let's talk about that very

02:05:45.960 --> 02:05:47.960
quickly, because I think that's the third prong

02:05:47.960 --> 02:05:50.680
for this trifecta of revolutionizing the fire

02:05:50.680 --> 02:05:54.319
service. Yep. So we call it the nurse triage

02:05:54.319 --> 02:05:57.640
line. It's something that Chief Dean brought

02:05:57.640 --> 02:06:01.479
from Seattle, an idea that I don't think they

02:06:01.479 --> 02:06:03.380
actually had it, but it was an idea that they

02:06:03.380 --> 02:06:06.319
had. And our former chief of staff, Amy Morrow,

02:06:06.460 --> 02:06:10.239
latched onto it and pushed it immensely. And

02:06:10.239 --> 02:06:16.220
it's awesome. I mean, I want to say, again, I

02:06:16.220 --> 02:06:18.899
don't know, but I want to say 80 to 100 calls

02:06:18.899 --> 02:06:23.579
a day, I believe, are diverted from EMS to...

02:06:23.949 --> 02:06:26.390
the nurse triage line. So the call taker asks

02:06:26.390 --> 02:06:30.529
certain questions. If the criteria meets certain,

02:06:30.609 --> 02:06:33.890
or certain criteria is met, they get transferred

02:06:33.890 --> 02:06:37.069
to a nurse, right? There's just a pocket of nurses

02:06:37.069 --> 02:06:39.850
somewhere in some other state. It changes on

02:06:39.850 --> 02:06:42.550
occasion. And that nurse asks them a bunch of

02:06:42.550 --> 02:06:45.329
questions. If they meet all that criteria, they

02:06:45.329 --> 02:06:47.430
have the ability to say, okay, well, I'm going

02:06:47.430 --> 02:06:50.130
to set you up with an appointment at, you know,

02:06:50.210 --> 02:06:55.409
this freaking, wellness clinic right down the

02:06:55.409 --> 02:06:58.750
street. At one o 'clock, an Uber is going to

02:06:58.750 --> 02:07:00.149
come. They're going to pick you up. They're going

02:07:00.149 --> 02:07:02.090
to take you down there the whole night. That

02:07:02.090 --> 02:07:03.850
has been amazing. Another thing that we have

02:07:03.850 --> 02:07:06.789
done is we have contracted with AMR as a third

02:07:06.789 --> 02:07:10.850
-party provider, and we basically are all but

02:07:10.850 --> 02:07:14.869
out of the BLS transport game now. If we're taking

02:07:14.869 --> 02:07:19.109
somebody in a BLS DC unit, AMR either doesn't

02:07:19.109 --> 02:07:21.710
have any units available or they're so far away

02:07:21.710 --> 02:07:24.319
that you know it just doesn't make sense to wait

02:07:24.319 --> 02:07:28.020
for them um but back in the day when i was riding

02:07:28.020 --> 02:07:29.960
an ambulance i was just talking about this the

02:07:29.960 --> 02:07:31.739
other day at nine engine because i was a fireman

02:07:31.739 --> 02:07:34.439
at truck nine and myself and my old ambulance

02:07:34.439 --> 02:07:36.220
partner were talking about the difference we're

02:07:36.220 --> 02:07:39.220
like man we used to transport 15 or 18 people

02:07:39.220 --> 02:07:41.600
a day that was transports that wasn't including

02:07:41.600 --> 02:07:43.800
the people we got canceled on or got signed refusals

02:07:43.800 --> 02:07:47.539
for nowadays most units are transporting two

02:07:47.539 --> 02:07:50.079
or three when it comes to the BLS unit. And that's

02:07:50.079 --> 02:07:51.779
huge. It makes a big difference. You actually

02:07:51.779 --> 02:07:54.260
see the guys in the firehouse. They can drill.

02:07:54.420 --> 02:07:57.699
They can eat with the crew. They can do all of

02:07:57.699 --> 02:08:00.079
those things. Oh, and they're still available

02:08:00.079 --> 02:08:03.420
for immediate response if they're needed. So

02:08:03.420 --> 02:08:07.279
great, great kudos to Washington, D .C. Fire

02:08:07.279 --> 02:08:09.579
Department for thinking well outside the box

02:08:09.579 --> 02:08:11.739
and leading the charge on some of these things

02:08:11.739 --> 02:08:15.600
because our men and women in the street are definitely

02:08:16.350 --> 02:08:18.909
better off because of it and the citizens and

02:08:18.909 --> 02:08:21.329
residents and visitors to the city are definitely

02:08:21.329 --> 02:08:24.670
better off because of it because units are available

02:08:24.670 --> 02:08:29.430
more often than ever before well i'm sure as

02:08:29.430 --> 02:08:31.729
as you've just detailed you know dc probably

02:08:31.729 --> 02:08:34.989
has a phenomenal you know list as far as recruits

02:08:34.989 --> 02:08:36.649
you know in the first place but i think you're

02:08:36.649 --> 02:08:38.289
going to have you know a few more applicants

02:08:38.289 --> 02:08:42.140
after listening to this conversation so uh With

02:08:42.140 --> 02:08:44.920
that being said, if people want to learn more

02:08:44.920 --> 02:08:47.159
about you, reach out to you, where are the best

02:08:47.159 --> 02:08:51.439
places online or social media? Join dcbravest

02:08:51.439 --> 02:08:54.220
.com. It is a recruitment webpage that a good

02:08:54.220 --> 02:08:56.840
friend of mine stood up a couple of years ago.

02:08:57.380 --> 02:08:59.020
Well, actually, two good friends of mine. They

02:08:59.020 --> 02:09:01.060
studied with me. I've coached football with one

02:09:01.060 --> 02:09:05.520
of them. Awesome people. and we completely reimagined

02:09:05.520 --> 02:09:07.579
the way that we do our hiring too it used to

02:09:07.579 --> 02:09:10.699
be one test every three or four years now it's

02:09:10.699 --> 02:09:12.680
a new test every six months it used to be you

02:09:12.680 --> 02:09:15.199
had to stand in line forever now everything's

02:09:15.199 --> 02:09:18.060
done online including your testing and you know

02:09:18.060 --> 02:09:20.140
hey if i didn't do well this time six months

02:09:20.140 --> 02:09:22.899
from now i can have another shot at it we also

02:09:22.899 --> 02:09:26.020
began charging for our testing which has helped

02:09:26.020 --> 02:09:30.359
a little bit if In the craziest of ways. It's

02:09:30.359 --> 02:09:33.479
60 bucks or something like that. But at least

02:09:33.479 --> 02:09:35.779
it makes someone have some skin in the game and,

02:09:35.779 --> 02:09:41.079
you know, really want to do something. Join DCBravest

02:09:41.079 --> 02:09:43.699
.com is great for the recruitment side of it,

02:09:43.720 --> 02:09:46.479
for just staying in touch with it. DC Fire and

02:09:46.479 --> 02:09:50.039
EMS on either Twitter or Facebook are great.

02:09:50.199 --> 02:09:52.680
We have an entire community and relations division.

02:09:54.090 --> 02:09:56.130
that right now we have a uniformed battalion

02:09:56.130 --> 02:09:58.590
fire chief over it just until we find a new division

02:09:58.590 --> 02:10:00.470
leader for that and then it'll go back to all

02:10:00.470 --> 02:10:04.380
civilian staff but each of those have previous

02:10:04.380 --> 02:10:06.859
experience with news networks. One of them worked

02:10:06.859 --> 02:10:10.319
for CNN. Another one worked for Fox 5. I believe

02:10:10.319 --> 02:10:14.140
another one worked for NBC4. But they're amazing

02:10:14.140 --> 02:10:16.600
at communicating what our men and women are doing

02:10:16.600 --> 02:10:19.140
in the streets. There's a lot of action shots,

02:10:19.300 --> 02:10:21.880
a lot of fire department things. And then the

02:10:21.880 --> 02:10:23.760
last one is, I'm going to give a shout out to

02:10:23.760 --> 02:10:26.199
a good friend of mine. He is my boss. He is the

02:10:26.199 --> 02:10:28.779
assistant chief of operations. Oddly enough,

02:10:28.840 --> 02:10:30.600
how the fire service works, there was a time

02:10:30.600 --> 02:10:32.880
when I was his lieutenant. And he was a wagon

02:10:32.880 --> 02:10:36.279
driver. But he is one of the best minds in the

02:10:36.279 --> 02:10:38.159
entire fire service. And I'm not saying that

02:10:38.159 --> 02:10:40.159
just because he is my boss. I'm saying that because

02:10:40.159 --> 02:10:44.100
he truly does. And that's Tony Kelleher. If you

02:10:44.100 --> 02:10:47.920
follow Tony on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, like

02:10:47.920 --> 02:10:51.720
you will be 100 percent up to date. He has been

02:10:51.720 --> 02:10:53.739
in that role now for two years, and I think he

02:10:53.739 --> 02:10:57.100
has completely revolutionized the way we look

02:10:57.100 --> 02:10:59.680
at the operations chief. He has done a wonderful

02:10:59.680 --> 02:11:02.659
job of championing what our men and women are

02:11:02.659 --> 02:11:05.659
doing out there in the streets. He's done a wonderful

02:11:05.659 --> 02:11:11.229
job of instilling. the mindset of making a decision

02:11:11.229 --> 02:11:14.109
and sticking by that decision for better or worse.

02:11:14.729 --> 02:11:18.250
We've gotten away from chastising members and

02:11:18.250 --> 02:11:20.229
doing things like that. We've moved more towards

02:11:20.229 --> 02:11:23.949
like a coaching mentorship style of leadership

02:11:23.949 --> 02:11:29.630
on the whole. And again, I mean, he's just information

02:11:29.630 --> 02:11:31.649
galore. And the dude knows more about the fire

02:11:31.649 --> 02:11:33.750
service than anybody I've ever met. I mean, this

02:11:33.750 --> 02:11:36.289
man, honestly, I'll tell you a quick story. It'll

02:11:36.289 --> 02:11:39.180
make your viewers laugh. Back in the day when

02:11:39.180 --> 02:11:41.399
I was lieutenant at 4 Engine and he was my wagon

02:11:41.399 --> 02:11:44.930
driver, Elliot. walked in. Now, Elliot's somebody

02:11:44.930 --> 02:11:47.369
we buy our shirts from. He used to work at Communications

02:11:47.369 --> 02:11:49.810
Forever. Just an awesome, awesome guy. Still

02:11:49.810 --> 02:11:52.050
hangs around the fire department. Well, he was

02:11:52.050 --> 02:11:54.510
talking about how that night Chicago Fire was

02:11:54.510 --> 02:11:56.369
on. And I was like, man, I can't get into that

02:11:56.369 --> 02:11:58.729
stuff. Blah, blah, blah. I don't watch fire movies

02:11:58.729 --> 02:12:01.630
or fire shows or whatever. Well, Tony pipes up

02:12:01.630 --> 02:12:03.569
standing at the stove. You know what I hate about

02:12:03.569 --> 02:12:07.729
Chicago Fire? Rescue 3 closed its doors and blah,

02:12:07.750 --> 02:12:09.270
blah, blah, blah. And he goes off on like this

02:12:09.270 --> 02:12:12.090
10 -minute tangent about Chicago Fire. And I

02:12:12.090 --> 02:12:13.850
just shook my head. I said, Tony, I finally figured

02:12:13.850 --> 02:12:16.609
you out. And he's like, what? I was like, you

02:12:16.609 --> 02:12:18.829
really don't know all this stuff. It's just we're

02:12:18.829 --> 02:12:20.710
so ignorant. We believe everything that comes

02:12:20.710 --> 02:12:24.210
out of your mouth. So he laughed. And no, truly,

02:12:24.350 --> 02:12:27.810
he does. He's amazing. So if your followers want

02:12:27.810 --> 02:12:31.130
to know exactly what's going on in D .C. Fire

02:12:31.130 --> 02:12:36.050
Department, those three things, stay up, stay,

02:12:36.270 --> 02:12:38.850
you know, current with everything that we're

02:12:38.850 --> 02:12:41.100
doing. Brilliant. He sounds like Tony would be

02:12:41.100 --> 02:12:42.600
another guest I probably need to get on here

02:12:42.600 --> 02:12:45.720
as well. I should have. He should have been the

02:12:45.720 --> 02:12:48.600
first one on my mind. Yes, Tony would be amazing.

02:12:48.720 --> 02:12:51.439
And Tony can bring, like me, he can bring the

02:12:51.439 --> 02:12:53.960
volunteer aspect of it, but to another level.

02:12:54.119 --> 02:12:56.680
He was the fire chief at Kentland for eight years.

02:12:56.880 --> 02:12:59.300
Kentland's year in and year out the busiest volunteer

02:12:59.300 --> 02:13:02.359
fire department in the nation. So being the fire

02:13:02.359 --> 02:13:04.859
chief there for eight years, being a co -founder

02:13:04.859 --> 02:13:08.100
of Traditions Training, I mean, he does a lot

02:13:08.100 --> 02:13:10.880
in the fire service. Fantastic. Well, Sean, I

02:13:10.880 --> 02:13:12.420
want to thank you so much. I know we've gone

02:13:12.420 --> 02:13:14.600
over two hours and I could talk to you for another

02:13:14.600 --> 02:13:17.479
two hours. I mean, all the innovations, you know,

02:13:17.520 --> 02:13:19.960
the great leadership, the culture that's been

02:13:19.960 --> 02:13:21.899
developed, you know, the work week. I mean, all

02:13:21.899 --> 02:13:24.359
the things that we've talked about. I think hopefully

02:13:24.359 --> 02:13:26.159
it'll give people listening a lot of hope. You

02:13:26.159 --> 02:13:28.000
know, there has been a breakdown in a lot of

02:13:28.000 --> 02:13:31.529
departments when it comes to that. an incurable

02:13:31.529 --> 02:13:34.949
optimist. I know that we can go back to all departments

02:13:34.949 --> 02:13:37.250
having people just lining up around the building,

02:13:37.409 --> 02:13:40.609
vying for those coveted spots to wear that particular

02:13:40.609 --> 02:13:43.649
uniform. So I want to thank you so, so much for

02:13:43.649 --> 02:13:45.909
being so generous with your time and coming on

02:13:45.909 --> 02:13:48.890
the Behind the Shield podcast today. Yes, sir.

02:13:48.949 --> 02:13:51.670
Thank you so much. And if you ever need anything,

02:13:51.750 --> 02:13:52.569
don't hesitate to call.