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founder, Ernie Colling. or go to transcendcompany
.com. Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.
As always, my name is James Geering, and this
week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the
show veteran skydiver and stuntwoman Katie Hansen.
Now, in this conversation, we discuss a host
of topics, from her journey into the world of
skydiving and wingsuits, the importance of fitness,
diligence in training, her near -fatal skydiving
near -miss, the psychological journey refinding
her confidence in the sky, working on Thunderbolts,
the Jimmy Chin project in the Sphere in Vegas,
and so much more. Now, before we get to this
incredible conversation, as I say every week,
please just take a moment. Go to whichever app
you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,
leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single
five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,
therefore making it easier for others to find.
And this is a free library of well over 1100
episodes now. So all I ask in return is that
you help share these incredible men and women's
stories so I can get them to every single person
on planet Earth who needs to hear them. So with
that being said, I introduce to you... Katie
Hanson. Enjoy. Well, Katie, I want to start by
saying two things. Firstly, thank you to our
mutual friend, Eric Salas, for making this connection.
And secondly, I want to welcome you onto the
Behind the Shield podcast today. Thanks for having
me. So where on planet Earth are we finding you
this afternoon? I am in Leadville, Colorado.
And I arrived here about an hour ago. And what's
taking you there? Um, I live in Moab, Utah and
it's super hot during the summer. And so my husband,
Matt and I have been staying away this summer
and we spend a month in Washington state. And
now for August, we're going to be kind of home
-based out of here and then head back in September
when it's a little bit nicer there. Yeah. If
you're escaping the heat and glad you didn't
come to Florida, it's been brutal here. Like
in a hundred and, you know, a hundred and six,
108 with the humidity. So yeah. No, thank you.
No, thank you. All right. Well, I would love
to start at the very beginning of your journey.
So tell me where you were born and tell me a
little bit about your family dynamic, what your
parents did, how many siblings. Sure. So I was
born in Portland, Oregon, but moved to Washington
State when I was maybe three or four years old
and consider Washington State home. So I grew
up in a few different places there. But, you
know, my high school years and things like that,
I lived in Big Harbor, Washington. And my family
still has roots out there today. We've got a
beach house we spend time at every summer on
the Puget Sound. And the Pacific Northwest definitely
feels like home to me, even though I moved away
in 2006 to California and started a whole other
journey then. But I am extremely fortunate with
my family. I grew up thinking it was normal and
realize now it's probably more of an exception
that I'm. really close with my whole family.
My parents are celebrating their 50th wedding
anniversary this year and are great examples
of a loving relationship, good communication,
and caring about their kids. And that doesn't
mean that we haven't all had our rifts or made
mistakes, but I know that they'll always be there
for me. And they, throughout my life, have been
people that I could rely on and turn to when
I needed advice or when I was screwing up. that
they would get me back in line. I have a brother
and a sister. Both are amazing people. I'm the
youngest and grew up being tortured by them,
of course. And, you know, we became, I would
say, good friends as we became older. And that's
more or less, you know, my family dynamics in
a nutshell. I guess I can add my dad was an actuary
growing up. like a branch of mathematician, basically
super smart. My mom has a degree in microbiology,
but her job growing up was to take care of us.
And I think it's a blessing when a parent can
stay home and raise their kids themselves. And
we were fortunate enough to have that be our
circumstance. And, you know, they were really
involved with. sports and you know timing at
track meets and driving me to soccer practice
and all that kind of stuff so very lucky very
lucky with my family it's it's so good to hear
because you're right especially in a lot of professions
in uniform, you know, there is actually a lot
of struggles in our early life, which I think
partly sends us to this, but even, you know,
your sport, there's a lot of people that I feel,
you know, there was some voids early on and some
of the skydivers, for example, that come on the
show that were filled by that adrenaline, that
excitement. When you look back now, what were
the elements of your parents' upbringing that
you think forged this loving relationship when
they met each other? Um, my parents both are,
they're incredible people. They love, um, they
have it together. You know, they met in college
and they, as far as I know, basically fell in
love on a ski trip and enjoying the outdoors
and pursuing life, you know, and they, I think
walk a pretty nice balance between real jobs
and having it together and providing and, you
know, being responsible with a love for. Fun
in the outdoors and, you know, being adventurous
people. So what about sports? Obviously, we're
going to get to the extreme sports you do now.
What were you playing and doing when you were
in the school ages? I started doing club track
when I was nine and did that through high school.
And soccer was always a huge, you know, I played
really competitive soccer from probably kindergarten
up through high school. I always ask people this
when they've done individual sports and they've
done team sports, what did you glean from each
of those that then served you later in life?
Ah, that's an interesting question. I love both
team sports and individual sports. I think individual
sports, there's like, it's very good for your
confidence to know that, that you're the one
who performs, you know, like if you did well,
it was all on you. And I think, especially growing
up, self -confidence was kind of a central theme
for me looking back you know it's been kind of
an important thing and I don't know if not really
sure why but that was one of the things that
boosted my self -confidence like when you place
in state or you excel or you win a meet that
was you you know when it came down to it in the
moment and um with team sports there's so many
so many good lessons that come from team sports
um from leadership, you know, when there's been
teams where I've fallen into a captain role and
it really is about the team, not yourself, you
know, or setting up someone else to succeed because
that makes the team succeed or really having
each other's backs through the difficult times
and celebrating together. It just like, it bonds
you and you feel what it's like to be part of
a community. And I think that's a really. special
thing as well speaking of women's soccer uh the
british lions or the england lions or british
lions i forget now but the our our female football
team i think it was england lions um they just
won again they've won i think several times now
but uh around this time with you know obviously
my social media was looking at women's football
soccer there came up a story as well where i
think it was spain they had used um This video
is a promo for women's soccer. And it was the
highlight of all these great goals and tackles
and headers and all the things. And then as the
commercial goes on, they show how they did it.
And what they actually did was used AI to replace
the women's faces with men's faces. So actually
what you were seeing the whole time was was women's
soccer. And so using today's technology, it was
kind of. uh you know debunking the myth that
you know female sports weren't as good to watch
for example because you were all in when you
thought it was men but it was the whole time
it was women that you're watching yeah oh that's
fascinating what a cool little social experiment
yeah absolutely well what about career aspirations
again as you're progressing through the school
age what were you dreaming of becoming back then
oh man I had to kind of come to terms with it
was interesting because I grew up in a family
where, you know, the expectation, not because
it was pushed on you, but that's just the example
set before you was going to college, you know,
getting a degree and getting a job and playing
on the weekends and and setting yourself up for
retirement later in life and having a family.
And, you know, there's nothing wrong with any
of those things at all. But I found that they
weren't necessarily a good fit for me. And having
to kind of come to terms with that and realizing
that there's more than one correct path to take
through life. And even though what I thought
was going to be, you know, my future as I grew
up turned out to not be what I wanted. And having
to realize that that didn't mean that I was failing.
It was me just kind of growing as a person and
discovering who I was. I started skydiving when
I was 18, the day before I walked for high school
graduation, fell in love with it. And we can
get into that, you know, later, but I knew that
I did want a fallback career, no matter what
I wanted to be responsible. And I found that
kind of a balance between something that You
know, I'm a very nurturing person, despite some
of my rough exterior. Sometimes I am. I deeply
care about people. And nursing was a career that
needed people and also had a very flexible work
schedule. And there was always going to be a
need. It was a growing field, you know, and I
didn't want to be so naive that I just, you know,
got a degree. Something that wasn't going to
set me up for a job later if I was going to go
to school. I wanted it to be something that actually
I could use the degree for. So I decided to go
to nursing school and did. I went to nursing
school and graduated as an RN in 2000, the very
end of 2009. So I've been a nurse since 2010
and have spent basically since then. kind of
flip -flopping or meshing between full -time
skydiving and working as a nurse you know and
eventually got into travel nursing but kind of
find a balance found a balance between the two
ish I I feel like I'm a pendulum and I go from
like working too hard nursing and feeling like
I need to be responsible and then being miserable
and then quitting that job or You know, that
contract would end and then I would just like
pendulum the other way into, you know, eat, sleep,
breathing, skydiving, working on the drop zone.
And, you know, I've kind of done a lot of different
jobs within skydiving in terms of, you know,
I was a packer for a season and packed other
people's parachutes and quickly realized I wanted
to be in the air all the time and started, you
know, shooting video for tandems. Didn't get
my tandem rating until I think I had 7 ,500 skydives
because I didn't want to have to do tandems because
I didn't want my own personal progression to
suffer. And once people get a tandem rating and
start doing tandems, they have a tendency. not
to work on their own personal flying but my solution
to that was you can't make me do tandems if i
don't have a rating so i just didn't get one
until i felt like i had kind of safely avoided
that trap and then uh yeah so anyway kind of
to answer i kind of flip -flopped between nursing
and nursing and skydiving i want to take a dive
into the nursing but just before we do you'll
be an interesting person to to get a perspective
on on this When I came over to the States from
the UK, one of the big kind of realizations was
I kept making, you know, what I would determine
as Uncle Rico's. So all these guys that were
kind of late 20s, early 30s deconditioned by
this point. And they would always have I would
have, could have, should have been story, you
know, with the football, with baseball, whatever
it was. And as time went on, especially now with
the podcast, I start speaking to high level athletes
and coaches. people from different walks of life,
I realized that there is a danger of when you
forge performance with a child, with a youth
athlete, a high school, a college. that it can
be done at the detriment of wellness, of longevity.
And you do see a lot of broken athletes when
they're literally 18, 19, 20 years old. And I
think that then is a huge dissuader for continuing
to just simply enjoy sports, to simply move,
to simply play. What was your experience as you
walked through when you were playing football
at a high level? that's a good question and do
you mean like the physical ramifications of it
because you're injuring your joints or do you
mean like the emotional part where they're so
burnt out they hate the sport and don't want
to do it anymore yes and yes um i actually i
loved i loved sports and i still do and i think
that for me personally um it was so beneficial
i still think of and it's funny how Some of the
drills that I've spent decades, you know, like
so long doing in track, like warm up drills and
stuff, I find have helped my flying, my free
flying, which is so funny. And one of the most
influential people I think in my childhood was
one of my track and cross country coaches in
high school. And her name was Patti Lay. And
she was like an Olympic caliber distance runner.
And she instilled into us so much passion. And
the thing that I think was so important and influential
was about mindset and how your mindset can change
your physical performance. You know, there's
been a few key points in my life where I've really
gone back and tried to analyze why they were
key points. And I think that all of them kind
of come down to a mindset shift. And there was
one particular, it was just a practice that is
like a core memory that stuck with me was my
track team was really good. My cross country
team was really good and our workouts were hard.
And I was on the varsity team and we were doing
a really challenging workout that, I mean, you
just want to die. You felt like you're going
to puke if you hadn't already. You know, it's
mentally exhausting. It's, you know, sprints
that are, you know, distance, distance length
that you feel like you're sprinting with not
enough rest and just you're worn out. And there
was one left and everyone was just like, couldn't
wait for it to be over. And she told her, she
said to us, she said. you don't just survive
this one which is what all of us were telling
ourselves she's like you don't survive this one
you grab it by the throat and you murder this
one and it was she meant it like with such force
and it was god is so fired up it's like i don't
think i've ever run so hard when i was already
so tired and went just that mindset shift i'm
like oh i gotta get through this just survival
mode to taking the opportunity to forge the most
strengthened mindset so that when you come up
running against other people you break them and
you watch their mind you watch them you watch
them think oh I'm not going to get left behind
you watch them realize that you're not going
to give up and you're going to punish them and
you watch them quit and fall behind and I think
that those lessons that I learned in sports from
her it's not to say I wouldn't have learned them
somewhere else but sports is where I learned
them and I'm endlessly grateful for it and i
feel like my life is better off for having her
be my coach and for doing sports when i was young
so when you reflect back what was it about the
coaching and the environment that you were you
know wrapped in that prevented the mental burnout
the physical injuries that we see with a lot
of other people um I did have some physical issues
and I think that honestly it came from, I don't
really know what they were. Even I think back
in like pushing myself so hard mentally that
my body really did collapse. Like passing out
while you're running basically. I don't know
if it was like glycogen stores running dry, like
your body physically. Like generally when we're
mentally fatigued, our body has so much more
to give. And I feel like if you push past that
point where your body actually gives out, that
can cause psychological damage too. And there
was definitely a period where I, my competitive
drive was definitely reeled back. I felt like
I had been damaged from it. And somewhere along
the line, got better and found my competitive
drive again. And pushed through it. So it's not
to say there weren't setbacks, but I think in
the grander scheme of things, it was important
for me to have those lessons. And yeah, I'm not
sure. I don't know what they did to necessarily
prevent that from happening because it kind of
did happen. But yeah, just set good examples
of caring and working hard and that. When you
were struggling, you could come to them with
anything, whether it was in your personal life
or your schoolwork or your running and knowing
that they cared about me as a person and would
be there for me to help me through, you know,
those difficult times too and didn't discard
you because you were having issues or got replaced
in your performance by someone that was behind
you. You know, they cared and wanted to bring
you back up. Yeah, that's probably a big part
of it too then because I know that loss of identity,
that perceived failure. We're talking about children,
so it's going to be crushing. Yeah. Walk to me
through the nursing side then. So you go through
the educational element. You enter the American
medical system. What were some of the aha moments
for you, the highs and the lows? Oh, man. So
when I started nursing school, I had already
started skydiving. I started skydiving in 2003,
moved to California in 2006, got into a really
competitive nursing program. I basically scored
in the top 1 % on the entrance exam and got accepted
to CSU Sacramento, to Sac State. And somewhere...
Between when I applied for nursing school and
got in and when I got out, things went from multiple
job opportunities and signing bonuses to there
not being any jobs for new grads. And that is
demoralizing. And school was hard. And I was
loving. loving skydiving by then I was working
on the drop zone on the weekends you know doing
school work in between loads studying in between
jumps and um it was really hard by the time I
graduated I crawled across the finish line I
did not want to be nursing all I wanted to do
was skydive and so basically my um You know,
my choices when I graduated were as a new grad,
move away to somewhere else besides Northern
California and get a job in a hospital or take
a terrible job at like a skilled nursing facility.
And I was killing it in my skydiving career.
I was up and coming. I was, you know, jumping
all the time and I didn't want to leave NorCal.
I was thriving there. And so I opted. to pursue
skydiving and put that first and had like a part
-time job in a skilled nursing facility which
man i appreciate the hard workers there so much
it's it's a sad place to see what um you know
the laws instead of protecting you know the nursing
ratios and stuff those nurses are overworked
and the patients are under care for not for a
lack of compassion by the staff there but by
the people who run them and you know the tools
are given to work with is so sad and um and so
the job sucked I hated it it was hard and um
you leave every day feeling like you should have
done a better job because you're not given the
tools you need to take care of the people the
way you want to take care of them and So when
it was between that and full time skydiving,
it was a pretty easy choice for me. And all I
did was make my resume for nursing worse and
worse in a really competitive field to get jobs
in hospitals because, you know, there's hundreds
of applicants for positions. So I spent the first
six years of my nursing career skydiving and
nursing very little. And it was through. um the
skydiving network that someone was like oh yeah
you want a job as a nurse we're always hiring
on my unit got an interview got a job um which
was intimidating after being out of the hospital
and out of nursing school for six years before
I got my first hospital job um and when I I had
that job for a year and three months. And I know
that because it's the longest I've ever had a
real job where you have to ask for time off.
And I've only done it twice in my whole life.
I don't do very well with being told I can't
go play for extended periods of time. But, you
know, it was California too. And I love California,
but there's some quirky things about Californians
and the way things run there. I remember just
getting pulled into the office. By that time,
it was like every other day, I was always in
trouble. And it was for stuff that was so dumb.
And basically, you know, not to get into like
the drama of working in the hospital, it was
totally unwarranted. And the boss, she was the
manager, because I think she couldn't cut it
working on the floor. She'd only been a nurse
for like six months to come to the pressure of
you know, other people and whatever, for some
reason, she kind of had it out for me. And I
was in trouble once again for something like
so dumb that was just pulling me off the floor,
using our resource nurse to cover my patients
instead of helping people that needed it. And
I was miserable, you know, was just losing my
hair from stress from this job that I was just
miserable. And I just said, thank you for the
opportunity. for having worked here this is my
two weeks notice i'm out of here and i quit and
became a travel nurse um which was a much better
fit because i could skydive full time for six
months or five months at a time and then take
a nursing contract for three months you're not
involved in any of the politics because you're
only there for three months and you you know
just pick the one thing like all right what's
your unit care about this one thing I'll do a
great job doing that one thing and then you're
out of there after three months and it was it
was a better fit for me and everyone says like
oh nurses travel nurses make better money and
for me all that meant was cool I only have to
work half as much I can go skydive the other
half so I probably didn't do the best job in
terms of getting ahead financially but in terms
of life life experience and you know, pursuing
my passion, which has been skydiving since the
first time I did it. Um, it was a great opportunity
for me. Why was it so competitive? Was that post
the 08 crash? Yeah, I'd left Anaheim, California
right before that. And I was suddenly, you know,
went through a divorce, was thinking about going
back to California and they were like, Nope,
there's no jobs here anymore. Yeah. Yeah. So
it's interesting, though, because in my profession
and your profession, if you look back then how
competitive it was, and now you look at today,
fire departments are offering signing bonuses.
That's never, ever happened in the history of
the fire service. And the same with nursing.
And it's a reflection of not taking care of your
people. That's really what it is. So there's
so much. Yeah, I mean, there's just so many lessons
that need to be learned. And I think, you know,
in my profession. And there's this kind of beginning
of a revolution where they're realizing we can't
work our people into the ground. They're literally
dying. So we have to change something. So the
work week is starting to change here in Florida.
And it's going to go across the country. There's
no question. But, you know, nursing needs the
same thing. I mean, I hear it all the time, the
danger of the ratios. And, you know, not only
is it incredibly unfair to the nurses and behind
everything from burnout, excuse me, burnout to
alcoholism to all the other things. The fact
that patients are dying, patients are given the
wrong doses, patients aren't given enough doses
because you've got a nurse trying to run around
that's also chronically overworked, sleep deprived,
and just can't even think straight. Yeah, I think
you hit the nail on the head. Couldn't agree
more. We're expendable. They run you into the
ground until you burn out and quit, and then
they replace you. And it's just sad to see them
spend that budget on new hires instead of paying.
their staff, you know, what they're worth. And
the more frustrating thing too, is, you know,
they're looking at numbers on paper and their
quarterlies and what you can't put a monetary
value on. It's like the culture of the unit.
And especially now, you know, they put so much
emphasis on patient satisfaction scores and it's
like, dude, yeah, it's, it's frustrating to even
talk about. It's like, just take care of your
staff, you know, and. Everyone feels it. And
yeah, it's such a valuable job, you know, and
it could be such a great career, but it's just
ruined by the people that are in charge of the
hospitals. Did you watch the show The Pit? I
loved it. It was amazing. Yeah, I think, you
know, there's obviously it's a TV, so it's not
perfect, but I thought it did a pretty good job
of what it feels like to work in the ER. And
I, yeah, I enjoyed it. Yeah. I mean, you know,
obviously we are getting the perspective of the
medics in that show that walk through. We offload
the patient, you know, we might hang out for
a bit, find out why they're dying and then leave.
But, you know, in COVID, you know, people were
like, oh, there's this patients in the hallway.
The reporters was like, there's always fucking
patients in the hallway. Have you not been paying
attention the rest of the time? and it's the
same with the exactly and so then you know when
you look at the patient satisfaction scores you
know his his character the lead is like well
of course they're not satisfied they're waiting
eight fucking hours for a bed so how the hell
are you supposed to get good good you know scores
when you're again understaffed and overworked
it's impossible Yeah, no, I loved that show.
And other than, I thought it was funny that the
doctors did so much of the work that really the
nurses do. But other than that, it was pretty
accurate. It was, it was great. All right, well
then let's kind of roll the clock back for a
second to 18 years old. What was it that made
you even want to try skydiving in the first place?
That's a good question. I get asked that a lot
and I'm not really sure what it was that sparked
it. But I think I was about 14 years old and
I thought skydiving was so cool. And I think
the big draw was I thought it was how cool, how
much trust in themselves skydivers had. And I
was like, that's insane. They can literally jump
out of a plane and know with 100 % certainty
that they're going to do what they need to do
under the pressure of being in free fall and
deploy their parachute and land safely. And I
thought that was so cool. I knew that my dad
had wanted to do a skydive when he was in college
and never did it. And, and so we made a deal
that we would go for, I, my dad and I just talked
about this. I thought it was for my birthday.
He said it was for graduation, but my birthday's
in January. So in Washington state, that's pretty
cold. But when I turned 18, I was like, right,
dad, you remember our deal from a few years ago?
And he was like, Oh man, no, I didn't. But okay,
let's do it. And we. We jumped the day before
I walked for high school graduation. And I don't
even think I had jumped yet. And I was like,
oh, yeah, this is for me. Like, I immediately
felt like there wasn't anything wrong with me
and I didn't need to keep trying to fit in anywhere.
I was like, oh, there's nothing wrong with me.
I just found my people like I'm good and loved
it from before I even made my first jump. i've
done two skydives in my life one in new zealand
and then one did you ever jump with sean schumer
yeah uh you know what's funny is i sean schumer
is a good friend of mine and he's one of my husband's
best friends and um i know i've been base jumping
with him but i actually don't think i've ever
been skydiving with him but we've flown wingsuits
together in europe and done jumps off the bridge
at the parine and yeah sean's wonderful and i
actually listened to his podcast he did with
you um oh brilliant yeah yeah um but did you
jump with him did you skydive with him no so
but i my second skydive was when we did 7x so
we went around the world with the navy seals
and all the guys so i've done one in new zealand
which was absolutely stunning and then one over
the pyramids from a Russian helicopter. So for
a guy that's done two jumps, I'm so spoiled.
But the reason I say that is the first one, full
transparency, I was shitting myself, metaphorically
and literally, like in the McDonald's bathroom
right before. But when I landed, I was like,
this was amazing. Now, I never was in an environment
to pursue it. I was traveling around the world
at the time, so I didn't find myself near a skydiving
school. But I have to say, I went from sheer
terror before. to again landing going i want
to be an instructor didn't didn't you know full
transplant did not take those steps but i i see
you know the the the absolute thrill from that
and then the second time was really interesting
because i think post -fire service the adrenal
fatigue i was doing almost like an experimentation
i'm like well this is from a helicopter this
time this is just a sheer drop no you know no
forward motion from an airplane and nothing Had
a blast, but didn't feel any adrenaline whatsoever.
So I'm like, okay, I think I am a little broken
from the fire service. But anyway, point being,
I can resonate with that first time. That being
said, though, you found your people. How did
that develop into such a love of skydiving that
you ended up making it an entire profession?
I think it just developed organically. It's just,
why do we love the things that we love? the people
had a lot to do with it the personal challenge
for sure like it is terrifying when you first
start and i think that it's really gratifying
to do things that are terrifying because it shows
you the strength of overcoming those things and
you know after enough jumps go by it's not terrifying
anymore and you realize because you're given
these tasks to do on each jump and those are
challenging And then you get better at them and
you complete those and start being given more
challenging tasks. And it's like, it's not just
the skydiving and the, you know, the adrenaline
or anything like that. I just, I love the people.
I thought it was fun and I thought it was challenging
and it feels good to pursue challenge. And skydiving
is really cool in the way that you don't have
to be good at it. for it to be fun. It's like
a great example of enjoying the progression.
The entire progression is really fun. And there's
never going to be a moment, I think, where I
feel like, all right, I'm good. You know, like
I'm on top. I don't have anything else to learn.
So it's just continuously stimulating, whether
that's, okay, now I'm good at doing this discipline.
I can want to go work on my wingsuiting or I
want to work on high performance canopy piloting.
There's always more avenues and more challenges.
And it is super fun. Like it is really gratifying.
You just dangle one thing in front of me like,
oh, my God, that was the best thing ever. I can't
wait to do more of that. And there's just like
a never ending supply of that feeling. So how
did you transition into the wingsuit and base
side? And then again, how many jumps did you
have regularly before you made that transition?
I would like to preface this with things were
a little bit different back then. There was no,
like nowadays there's like first flight courses.
Like you want to learn how to fly a wingsuit.
You get 200 skydives. You sign up for a first
flight course and you go with an instructor and
they teach you. And none of that existed. And
I think I had somewhere around 85 skydives when
I put my first wingsuit on. And I was like an
18 year old girl. And some dude gave me a wingsuit.
The wingsuits were really small back then, but
still, I probably had no business flying it.
And then I don't think I flew it again for, I
don't know, a year or two, basically until I
moved to California. So maybe a year or two later.
And I just walked into the drop zone with complete
confidence. Nobody knew who I was. No one knew
that I had no idea how to fly it. And I just
showed up. and manifested for a load and taught
myself how to fly and um let's definitely you
know there's more efficient ways to learn how
to be good at something and it's definitely not
the route I would recommend but that is what
I did that's that's my story um and then for
um and actually I guess an interesting part of
that too I should back it up I went to I went
to Baffin Island, which is in the Canadian Arctic,
for my first expedition in 2007. And I went back
in 2008. And at that point, I had more base jumps
than skydives. And I was so inspired by the people
wingsuit base jumping up there that I decided
I need to get back into skydiving and I'm going
to learn how to fly a wingsuit. And it was that
motivation that drove me to go back to the drop
zone and put on a wingsuit and really commit
to learning how to fly and fly well. And I think
I have my years messed up here. That was 2008
that I was driven to go back to the drop zone
and get good at flying because I went back in
2010 for my third expedition up there and did
my first wingsuit -based jump. after I had been
training for two years really hard and put in
a lot of work. And so, yeah, that's what sparks
me learning how to fly wingsuits and kind of
just going and doing it. And then I decided I
needed to get good at flying my body in general
and like learn the more fundamental skills. So
I didn't necessarily do anything in the order
that made sense in general. And took off my wingsuit
and really learned how to fly my body well without
it, which in the long run made me a much more
proficient wingsuit pilot also. Because you can
basically think of a wingsuit as like an amplifier,
where if you're good at flying your body, because
it gives you more surface area. So if you're
doing things well, you have more power. And if
you're not doing things well, it amplifies that
also. So yeah, and so. That's kind of the path
that I took through learning how to fly wingsuits.
And in terms of how I learned how to base jump,
I, oh man, this is another story of don't do
things like I did them, but things were a little
bit different back then. And I had 46 skydives
when I started base jumping, which is not enough.
And I was 18 and had gotten an academic scholarship
to go to Montana State University. And, um, by
the time when I signed up to go there, I was
so excited. And by the time it was time to go,
I was so sad. I didn't want to go to Montana.
I started skydiving in that interim, just wanted
to be in Washington with my friends and had met
somebody there who was a base jumper who I ultimately
ended up dating for like five and a half years.
And, um, he was going to go base jumping in Twin
Falls, Idaho. And I had convinced somebody because
I didn't have a car that it would be fun to take
a road trip to Twin Falls, Idaho and watch base
jumping. And when I showed up, it was like 10
o 'clock p .m. All the base jumpers I was going
to meet were at, you know, Texas Roadhouse having
tons of drinks. They were all hammered and they
had already decided that they were going to throw
me off the bridge the next day. And the person
that I went there to meet had told them that
I had 200 skydives. And I just kind of went along
with it and fell in love with base jumping. And
definitely realized that I didn't have a lot
of experience. And instead of jumping full throttle
into it, continued to skydive, continued to only
jump really beginner -friendly objects that,
you know, because I knew I was new at canopy
piloting and all that. I liked to think that
I did a not super responsible thing as safely
as could have been done. Well, speaking of that,
one of the skydivers I had on was Alistair McCartney.
I don't know if you've come across him before,
but in the interview, I remember him saying,
you know, people will say, well, you know, it's
99 % safe or whatever the term that will be used.
And he's like, but you can't do that in base
jumping. He's like, you know, that 1 % means
you died. So we were talking about the diligence
of training. The perception that people have
is, you know, a lot of the extreme sports people
are, you know, foolish and they're taking unnecessary
risks, but you listen to the diligence of the
training. It makes you realize, same with Alex
Honnold. I mean, we're talking about Jimmy Chin
earlier, you know, the free solo. I mean, the
number of times that he prepared for that route,
he basically got to the point where he couldn't
fail. So just elaborate on that a little bit,
you know, because my profession, again, you know,
if we don't prepare properly, we could die as
well. So what is the kind of behind the scenes
as far as a preparation for, you know, bass,
wingsuit, some of the extreme stuff that you're
doing? Yeah, that's a great question that you
asked. And it's funny you bring up, you know,
Alex Honnold and Jimmy Chin, because we're actually
shooting a Jimmy Chin documentary right now for
The Sphere that is also featuring Alex Honnold.
And the premise behind it, the documentary is
called From the Edge. And that is the premise.
It's about why do we do what we do? And what's
the behind the scenes, what's the planning and
the thought process that goes into something
that you just watch a one minute clip on Instagram
or on YouTube and you're like, oh, that guy's
crazy. But what you don't see is, you know, the
years of preparation and the, you know, maybe
just there's so much thought that goes into it
that you don't see from that one minute clip
that you watch. And like in the base jumping
side. You know, it depends on what your goals
are. Like say your goal is to wingsuit base jump.
I'll use an example. There's a jump that I wanted
to do called Pise de Lac and it's in the Dolomites.
And it's this amazing wingsuit base jump that
I watched a video. I was like, oh my God, I want
to do that. But basically you jump off the exit,
you fly right. And then you can either just kind
of fly down and land safely. And it's a fairly,
you know. I hate to use the word boring, but
like, you know, there's not a lot going on in
the flight or you can fly to the right of this
ridgeline. And basically you're like entrenched
in this crack between the cliff you just jumped
off on your hard right. And this whole nother
cliff band that's now on your left, you know,
and it's something that you watch and there's.
It looks cool, but you don't realize, you know,
it's easy to get judged for like, oh man, that
guy is stupid. He has a death wish. But what
you don't see is like, all right, I'm going to
go get all this GPS data on what my exits look
like. I'm going to make sure that I know my data
points overlay this jump I can do. I'm going
to make sure I learn about reading the weather.
I'm going to make sure that my. The first few
jumps I do off it, I'm flying around it, just
doing reconnaissance to make sure that I'm hitting
the checkpoints I could have. I wanted to go
into that entry gate, making sure that I'm taking
into consideration that conditions change from
jump to jump. And just because the last time
I was here, I could have made it to that entry
gate, realizing in the moment not to get caught
up into that and making sure you're assessing
on. The jump that you're going to go for, that
your plan is still to, or at least for me, to
bail and fly around it, unless it's just begging
to be jumped and you're still hitting all your
checkpoints that maybe you have sinkier conditions
and you're not going to. There's so much that
goes into it. And then the first time that I,
not the first time I did that jump, but it's
like the first time I flew that line. I was grinning
from ear to ear and I was thinking, I'm doing
it. I was so excited. And I was so proud of the
fact that I had flown it. But the most, the thing
that I was most proud about was my approach to
it. And that I didn't just go fly this line that
I thought looked really cool was that I had a
really measured approach to how I did it. And,
you know, and those are the kinds of things that
you don't necessarily see from just watching
somebody's video and thinking that they're crazy.
That if somebody is raining it back, you know,
say if you fly at 100 % and you're flying to
the edge of your performance envelope all the
time, you know, things do go, things eventually
go wrong. And if you're not padding kind of your
margin for error so that you can accommodate
for those things to go wrong, eventually when
they go wrong, you're going to get really hurt
or die. you know, everyone's 80 % looks different.
So it's hard to judge someone based just off
what they're doing without knowing the person
and knowing that the work that they've put in,
because some people are flying at a hundred percent
and they are idiots and they are probably going
to die, but someone else might be flying. They're
just really good. And they've put in a ton of
work and it might look crazy to me watching it.
And then you realize that that person is just
that good and they really are padding it and
they're flying at their 80%. And I think that's
just something interesting and a good lesson
to keep in mind. But the most important part
of that is to realize that you can't fly at your
max and pushing it all the time because something
will go wrong eventually. And then you won't
get to have this wonderful experience of life
anymore. I've never even thought of it that way.
If I think of it in like the gym, totally different
example. But, you know, when I was younger and
CrossFit was younger, you know, there'd be that
one rep max that everyone was trying to get.
And more often than not, you'd be sore as hell
for a few days if you didn't, you know, F you
back up. But now as we've matured, you know,
my gym, we do a five rep max or a three rep maybe.
And, you know. for me now if you look to me not
that i'm going to be lifting that heavy at all
i'm never going to that 100 anymore because i'm
51 and i want to i want to as you said have that
envelope i'm happy working in that envelope because
there is a margin for error if i lose you know
the the kind of brace in my back slightly i'm
not going to be so heavy that it's going to tear
everything apart again and from the outside looking
in someone who's performing at a high level It's
a great, great point. We would think, oh, that's
their 100%, but it's not. You've still got that
margin of error. And this seems to line up with
what a few of your peers have said on the show.
I think Dukes and some other people talked about
this. You've got this kind of copycat element
that are seeing people like yourselves and then
taking shortcuts in the base community or wingsuit
community. And now they are, as you alluded to,
at that 100%. And the moment there is a change
in weather or whatever it is, you see these catastrophic
accidents. You do. And it's interesting you bring
that up, too, because, I mean, we talked about
that I just had an accident a few years ago.
The things that I've just been talking about
are things that I've learned and held close to.
to myself throughout my career. And it doesn't
mean that I'm infallible and don't mess up either.
And I feel like that's part of the reason that
got me into my accident. And I thought I was
safely past this point, not in my twenties anymore,
you know, and I still got caught up with, with
forcing it. There was a line that I really wanted
to jump. I'd watched a video of a friend fly
it. um I wanted it and it's funny how when you
want something really badly and are essentially
forcing it that you can justify things that if
you took a step back and were looking more objectively
like no that's probably not a good idea but you
know when you're in the middle of it I think
that me personally I lost sight of some of those
lessons that I had learned and went out to go
do this jump that I wanted really badly and it
was at high altitude you know so the air is less
dense it was a warmer day than you know it was
a warm day and so the air is less dense and um
intuition we haven't talked about that yet but
I think that intuition man is something this
deeper sense trying to tell you something and
I think that it's really worth listening to and
my intuition was telling me something was off
that day and I didn't really want to do the jump
but I I wanted it that's why I was there and
I felt like this was my opportunity and no one
had ever jumped to the exit that we were jumping
it was farther back in a gully and lower than
the exit we had watched someone jump on that
video and Even though what we call like the rock
drop was higher. So like the actual distance
to get your vertical distance to get flying was
higher. The exit overall was lower and it was
a fairly flat jump, like where you have to have
a pretty good glide to get out. And conditions
were not lifty like they were when I watched
that friend fly. And there was three of us out
there that day. And the first person went. And
he called back up and he basically said, oh,
it's kind of sinky, you know, but you should
be good. And it's like, it wasn't good. It was
sinky. My intuition was telling me not to go
there or not to jump. It was forced. Like I just
wasn't in the right headspace. The whole thing
had so many red flags and I just figured it would
be okay. And from the moment I exited. it didn't
feel good I'm the exact thought in my head was
what the fuck like I didn't think I would be
this low in this gully and you know it's the
beginning of the jump I was optimistic that I
was still going to have enough clearance to get
over this ridge line to the right which was plan
a plan b was to just fly get ridge lift and fly
kind of high up on the ridge use the lift and
just fly down to the bottom and deploy my parachute
and I just kept looking for my opportunities
to cross that ridgeline, and I was just never
really high enough over the ground that I was
in a comfortable place. I never felt really high
enough to pull, nor were there any good landing
areas up there. I was trying different things
to get more altitude. I was trying to fly glidier,
which would give you separation from the ground
because you would gain altitude, but flying with
max glide. gives you a really slow speed which
is dangerous because speed equals lift and if
you don't have enough power from flying fast
you can't pull away from terrain when you need
to it was just it was not good it's like so I
was flying max glide and thinking this is stupid
I shouldn't be flying max glide and it's not
working so I tried to pitch a little bit steeper
and pick up speed so that I could kind of like
flare away from the terrain and couldn't do that
and just watching my opportunities disappear
you know and finally I was like I'm pretty sure
that was the last opportunity to cross it I wasn't
high enough and before you know it I was just
so low in this canyon not really at an altitude
high enough to pull and the and the gully just
like flattens out into there's no like cliff
band at the bottom where you gain altitude again
it just kind of melts into the horizon and I
had a solid like 15 seconds to realize that that
was probably the last 15 seconds of my life.
And I think when you're having an intense moment,
I experienced this thing called like time dilation.
And so 15 seconds is like an eternity to think
about how I had just effed up. I was so mad at
myself. And there was no like moment of like,
well, I had a good life. I was so pissed and
in denial. I was like, are you serious? Are you
kidding me right now? And, you know, I thought
about my family. I thought about like, man, I've
always wondered what people's last thoughts are
before they go in. And I was like, man, I guess
I'm having those thoughts right now. That's weird.
Like, and I was like, well, this sucks, but it's.
about to just all be black and I was like I'm
not gonna I'm not gonna go in without not at
least going through the motions of trying and
I threw my pilot chute which for those of you
who aren't familiar with skydiving the base jumping
the pilot chutes that little parachute that pulls
out the big parachute I threw my pilot chute
basically as I hit the one tree that was around
in this rocky gully and basically hit a decomposing
log. I went through the tree, head first through
the tree, smashed into a decomposing log and
like did a backwards somersault and stood up.
And I was like, why am I not dead? Like, how
am I conscious right now? And how am I standing?
I was like, there's no way I'm okay. Like my
legs must be broken. I'm standing on adrenaline.
And I knew, I was like, all right, do I know
who I am, where I am, like when I am, what happened?
I was like, well, that's probably a good sign
that I know to even check those things. And then
I looked at my parachute in the tree and that's
when I really, I was like, oh my God, my parachute
was still completely packed together. And the
slider that slows the deployment down so you
don't break your neck because it opens too hard
was still all the way up in the parachute. Meaning
my parachute hadn't really started to deploy.
And I don't know if just like the, you know,
if it snagged in the tree and helped decelerate
me. I'm not totally sure. I don't know. None
of it makes any sense to me, which is something
I had to come to grips with. The why of why I'm
still alive. But I called. I called the person
who hadn't jumped yet because basically I disappeared
from view from the person on the top. And I never
appeared from view to the person on the ground.
So nobody saw what happened. And I was wearing
a camera, which we saw later the footage from,
which is pretty insane. But I called the guy
on the top to tell him it's not good to jump.
And he was also, as it turns out, we talked about
later, a little unsettled up there. Similar to
how I was feeling. And he turned his phone on
to airplane mode so that no one would disturb
him. And so he jumped. I got a hold of the guy
that was on the ground and said, I landed in
a tree. I think I'm okay, but I need help, which
is like the understatement of the century. Like
I watched the footage recently. I was like, it's
so not clear what happened from what I said.
He probably, I'm sure he thought I just opened,
landed in a tree and was being a wuss, you know?
And I basically, I started to walk down the gully
and there was a bunch of bees. You can't make
this up, right? There was a bunch of bees and
I think I'm allergic to bees. I was like, are
you serious right now? So I turned around, this
is after I stashed all my gear and started to
walk up the gully to find a path to get found.
And as I was stashing my gear, it started to
become, uh difficult to breathe and you know
a moment set in of like definitely uh realizing
because of the mechanism of injury and what I
was experiencing that this could be really bad
and I was pretty far from help and really having
to just coach myself through staying calm I was
in a pretty bad situation and freaking out wasn't
going to help anything and if I'm far from help
the only way to get closer even if it seems really
far away is to just start moving towards it and
so um walked up the gully found a path found
my friends gave them my gear and one person went
to go get the car and I found the closest level
on trauma center and called report on myself
and um Someone saw my friend running to get the
car and just said, do you need help? And he said,
yeah, because the car was pretty far away, like
over a mile. And my friend jumped on the back
of this guy's dirt bike, went and got the car,
came and picked up me and the friend that was
with me and took me to the hospital. And yeah,
that's kind of the beginning of that journey.
What was the difficulty breathing specifically?
Was that attention pneumo or hemothorax? I was
worried about that. I was worried about pericardial
effusions. I was worried about all kinds of stuff
going on in my chest. And it turns out it was
a pulmonary contusion. So I had a bruised lung
and mild concussion while I was in the hospital.
Part of my vision started getting pretty weird.
And they ultrasounded in my eyeball. They did
so many scans. They put me back. in the CT machine
for a CTA, like they, they checked everything
and I had basically bruised, bruised bones. It
was pretty bruised up, but I didn't break anything
and had a mild concussion, which is unreal. Absolutely
unreal. I had a bone bruise in my, my fist. in
a kickboxing you know match not really a match
but in training um but it went full contact it
was like fight club and uh took forever to heal
and then one of the the physicians i saw said
that you'd be much better off just breaking your
bone my bone bruises are a nightmare so did it
did it take a long time for those contusions
it took a couple months i think for for the one
of my lower leg uh like my tibial plateau area
was hurt for a couple months to walk on and I
think I have pretty dense bones. I did a DEXA
scan one time for like body composition. And
honestly, I think it's because I'm allergic to
milk. And so my mom always made sure I got tons
of calcium growing up, like very mindfully. And
that and a lifetime of weightlifting and weight
-bearing exercise, I think has definitely saved
me from a lot of injury. Yeah, I'm the same.
I've never broken a bone. I'm going to knock
on wood now. I'm probably going to fall over
after this interview and break my face. Not quite
the same. I've broken a few. Yeah, but even when
I was a lifeguard, they hated me having to tow
me when we were doing partner drills because
my legs just sink straight down. If I exhale,
I end up on the bottom of the pool. It's a good
thing, definitely. So then talk to me about the
rehabilitation journey. We kind of touched on
this before we hit record. You mentioned that
you'd been in a motorcycle accident prior to
this. So what was the difference about this journey
and then what was the mental impact of such a
terrifying near miss? Yeah, good questions. The
motorcycle accident was in 2012. And I was basically
not seen by a car. And someone swerved in front
of me and I got thrown off my bike. I was on
a Gixxer 750, but not doing anything wild. I
was on just like a two lane country road with
no cross streets. And a guy swerved into a driveway
who was missing. And I clipped the back of the
car and got thrown off my bike and went through
a mailbox and smashed like back first into a
metal fence and broke C7, T1, T2. T3, T5, T8,
T9, L3, separated my AC joint in my left shoulder,
shattered my scapula, broke most of my ribs on
the left side, collapsed my lung and tore my
knee open through the joint. If you just drank
milk, you would have been fine. That's hilarious.
So, you know, and again, it was really hard to
breathe like immediately. I also thought that
I was going to get left there. The guy that caused
the accident after what felt like an eternity
finally came over just inside my field of vision,
put his hands on his head and looked around up
and down the street and turned around to walk
away. And somebody came running out of their
house in the middle of nowhere and had called
911 and stuck by me until I went to the hospital.
But for that, the... The rehabilitation was,
it's so all encompassing, right? My body was
so damaged. It consumed my life. My life was
rehabilitating my body, which in some ways is
easier than just breaking your arm, which I've
done before too, where you're like, God, I want
to do everything. I feel fine, but I can't because
my arm hurts. This is like, okay, it trumps everything
going on in my life. celebrating those small
wins like I remember the first time I could lift
my elbow off the bed to reach for something I
was still in the hospital I was like oh my gosh
things are starting to work again you know and
I found out um you know that I had this really
innate just intrinsic motivation to get better
and I feel really thankful for that um because
that That amount of injury could have been, you
know, I had every excuse to take painkillers
and complain about my back hurting. But the only
person who would have lost in that would be me.
I didn't want to be on pain medicine. And I just
wanted my life back. I didn't want excuses. I
wanted to go skydiving. So, you know, I worked
really, really hard. And, you know, when I got
in that accident was. During the world record,
the 164 way head down world record or the 138
way head down world record. And I was fairly
good enough to be on it. Maybe I would have got
cut very likely, but I at least would have gotten
a shot. And it meant a lot to me three years
later to be on the next world record. I was on
the 164 way and. and back on track to to live
my life you know it's not to say I don't have
a little bit of residual stuff but in my day
-to -day life I don't feel held back by that
at all so you know the the big thing in that
accident was physical while in the accident that
I had more recently it was much more emotional
you know ultimately my body was okay and I um
I was having a hard time for sure my life felt
um completely meaningless I thought you know
what's the point if I work so hard to to eat
well and take care of my body and you know sacrifice
you know fun things for the betterment of my
health and future and then you snap your fingers
and it's all over like what's it all for I didn't
get the point and You know, my life felt meaningless,
but at the same time, I felt completely risk
averse. You know, I started having panic attacks
for the first time in my life, which is quite
humbling for someone who feels like they have
their mental game together. And, you know, dealing
with anxiety and it was difficult. It was difficult
to deal with, you know, didn't nobody really
wanted to wingsuit base jump anymore. I went
on a wingsuit base jumping trip. I already had
one planned like the next month. And also the
200 way have a tendency to get hurt in July.
The next world record attempts, which we ultimately
didn't break the world record, were right after
that. And I was just trying not to freak out
in the airplane while we were like. Going slow
after takeoff flying over a cord because I looked
out the window and just felt close to the ground
going slow, you know, and. Basically, I was not
in a good headspace. Wingsuit base jumping was
terrifying. Like I wasn't doing well. And I had
to step back and reanalyze, like, how am I trying
to rehabilitate myself? I have a lot of work
to do. I can't just keep pushing through thinking
things are going to feel better without changing
how I'm. trying to heal from this. And wasn't
sure if I wanted to wingsuit base jump anymore,
but did decide that if I chose not to, it was
going to be from a healed mindset where I just
decided that wasn't what I want and not from
a place of fear. And so I put in a lot of work.
I did a lot of journaling. I sat with the discomfort
of trying to analyze what happened. um radical
ownership of my mistakes leading up to it which
man it sucks to screw up it sucks making huge
mistakes and it's not fun to think about them
um but the only way to truly learn from it to
make sure that I never made those mistakes again
and to change my approach to wingsuit base jumping
was to ultimately sit with immense discomfort
and do a lot of internal analyzing and after
analyzing what happened and what was my part
in it figuring out how it would never happen
again and what my goals were with wingsuit base
jumping and what my tolerances were also and
ultimately you know there's a lot of lessons
learned from it but one is even though I have
the This skill set to jump something, it doesn't
mean that it's necessarily within my risk tolerance
anymore either. And I don't have anything to
prove and even to myself. And yeah, modernized
some way, you know, some things I was doing got
better with analyzing data and. Even though I
don't like it, I like flying. I don't like computers,
you know, but realizing that there's so much
that can be learned from the modern way of doing
things and really finding kind of a new mentor
to teach me those things that I was felt safe
with, too. I'm an experienced jumper, but someone
who would nurture that environment for asking
basic questions and be stoked for me instead
of making me feel dumb about it was important
to me, too. So surrounding myself with a team
of amazing people and putting in a lot of work
and that piece de la jump that I talked about
earlier had compounded significance to me because
it wasn't just my approach to that one jump in
particular. That was also kind of a pivotal moment
of me in that longer rehabilitation from being
in that accident to feeling like I was accomplished.
in a better headspace and better with my wingsuit
base jumping than it was before my accident so
that was a pretty special jump for me um and
eric was there on that jump too i know he's a
mutual friend of ours eric and pat walker um
so um there's a i don't want to say a quote because
i'm probably going to screw it up but basically
i was watching instagram and i don't even remember
who said this but basically he said That healing
isn't a peaceful process and that you have to
sit with what broke you or what you broke until
you understand it. And so I am very proud of
that uncomfortable journey that I've gone through.
And, you know, it was never a secret, my accident,
but I also didn't broadcast it because I had
a lot of work to do and I didn't really need
external people either validating or. whatever
i didn't need their input i needed to figure
out what i was going through myself and now i'm
in a place where i feel like i can talk about
it and um hopefully other people can learn from
it and yeah more comfortable sharing that story
now well i'm glad you did thank you i mean it's
so powerful before the accident Where were you
at spiritually wise? Were you a believer in a
certain religion? Did you have a relationship
with God? And then what was that journey after?
You know, that's a good question. And I didn't
grow up in a very religious household. I would
call my mom agnostic and my dad is an atheist.
But they were always very supportive of my own
spiritual curiosity and journey. Early adulthood,
I have started to kind of find my own way. And
it's not an organized religion, but I very much
am a spiritual person and do believe that there's
something else out there and kind of a thread
that connects us all. And that intuition, I think,
is a thing that we tap into with that. And, you
know, I've had to kind of surrender for lack
of a better term that I won't understand. why
I'm still alive and I'm okay with that now but
I do feel like I'm not done here I feel like
I have some I feel like I'm here to be a leader
and a teacher and someone who inspires and inspires
through following my own passion and I think
if if nothing else you know I'm still that person
and it's just even more solidified and It's hard
to explain aspects of spirituality other than
I very much feel like I'm where I'm meant to
be right now. And I feel like I'm on my path.
And when in my life, I've had the courage to
kind of yank the safety net out from under me
and like really go for it and follow my heart
and what calls me. There has been so much opportunity
that presents itself, but it presents itself
after. It's like being rewarded for having the
courage to follow my heart. And I feel like I'm
very much in the middle of one of those periods
of my life right now. Hopefully that will never
end. That's just the state I want to live in.
But yeah, I would say I feel very connected to
spirituality and source or whatever you want
to call it. And especially since my accident.
That's really interesting. I'm similar. I grew
up, you know, not really even in a Christian
household because neither of my parents were
actively practicing that, but I was exposed to
the Church of England. Ironically, I went to
a Christian secondary school. And let's just
say, I don't think a lot of the people that went
to the school were participating in it. There's
a guy would come, I forget how often now, but
we'd get the local vicar. would give us a talk
and he'd hand out a magazine called Jesus and
Me. And then we'd all roll it up and then have
fights with it in the next playtime. So I'm not
sure how religious my schoolmates actually were.
But I found myself with that common denominator,
as I've said, you know, don't be a dick is pretty
much universal. But I don't believe that God
has a plan as far as James is still alive and
didn't die in a fire or a car wreck or anything.
But this eight month old is dying of leukemia.
I don't think that he's moving chess pieces around.
But we are still here. And so for me, I mean,
I see God in nature already. I think this experience
that we're having is absolutely incredible. But
if you are still here, then to me, it's gratitude.
You're still here. So what can you do? How can
you make the world better? Because that's all
we know. I don't know anything else. I don't
know of a heaven or any of that stuff. But I
know that if I try and do good things. that it
will benefit other people. And it's not about
me, it's about us. So it feels like there's a
similar connection there. Definitely. And it's
just interesting you bring up gratitude too.
I've started, you know, a practice where I spend
time each morning, you know, either doing something
for myself, whether that's journaling, which
when I journal. It's not super structured, so
I don't make it sound that way. It's like whatever's
on my mind. If I just need to hemorrhage what's
on my mind, I do that. If I'm not sure what I
want to journal about, which is often, I start
with five things that I'm grateful for. And it
really does put you into a positive mindset for
your day. Something a good friend of mine, his
name is Mort, and I love this so much. He calls
it MRI and it stands for the most reasonable
interpretation. And it's like when you're faced
with things that come up in your life that it's
so easy to, you know, make up these things in
your head that you start to get anxious over
or pissed off at that are just stories that you're
telling yourself. It's like, wait a minute, what's
the most reasonable way that I can interpret
this? What's like the best case scenario I can
think of? You know, it's not to say you don't
prepare for worst case, but it's like, all right,
if this person did this. what's the best case
that I can think of that they might be doing
that for, you know? And it's just a different
mindset to be in, to think the best of people
and to be positive and, you know, try and bring
the team up and do what's good for other people,
just be a good person. And I think that, you
know, those are the lessons that people are supposed
to feel. theoretically right with religion also
you feel spiritual you feel close to god or whatever
you want to call it and i think that a lot of
people that go to church aren't very spiritual
probably they're going because they feel like
they suppose they are supposed to be going or
that's what they were taught to do and i think
it's such a blessing when you can actually feel
that in your own life through your own experiences
that you just feel like this you know the majesty
of nature or the beauty of you know sharing a
connection with people and i think that i think
that that is what the message was supposed to
be and you know and i feel that and i hope that
other people can too whether they do that through
organized religion or on their own but that's
just kind of my my own personal view yeah no
absolutely i agree 100 well kind of switching
tact a little bit now I was in the stunt world
for 22 ish years, mainly in the live stunt show
side. I never got into film and television. I
was in film and television, but basically as
a glorified actor, excuse me, glorified extra,
excuse me. So love the stunt world when it came
to the live show. How did you transition from,
you know, skydiving just for the pure passion
of the sport to using that as far as the entertainment
side? The entertainment side being. Stunts? Stunts,
yeah. Well, the movie, television, etc. Oh, man,
that's the dream. Everyone wants to be in stunts.
They're badass when they're on the, at least,
you know, the aerial side. Stunts in general,
you know, if I were in my 20s and had known about
it, I think that probably would have been a pretty
good career path. But now that I'm not in my
20s, that just looks like a lot of getting beat
up and uncomfortable and falling down. But like
the, you know, the... the creme de la creme of
stunts, at least from someone who's a skydiver
is I want to do those cool aerial jobs. Like
they're rad. And it's definitely Eric. I have
to thank for that for bringing me in on one that
actually came to fruition, which was so special.
It's one of the coolest experiences that I've
had in skydiving or base jumping. And that was
for the Marvel movie Thunderbolts that just came
out in May. That was a great, great film. It
was a great film. I loved it so much. Stunts
aside, I just loved the movie. But yeah, the
opportunity came up almost, I think, two years
ago at this point. And we talked about it for
a year. And it was going to happen and then not
going to happen and then going to happen again.
And ultimately, after that roller coaster, it
did happen. And we went to Malaysia and got to
jump off the second heist. building in the world,
which was incredibly rad. Like obviously the
stunt was cool, but I think that what really
stuck out to me was that I got a glimpse into
the world of stunts, right? Because I know the
aerial world, but it was so cool to see what
a family and a community and a tribe that was.
And I'm not sure like the ins and outs of what
exactly the strikes were going on in Hollywood
leading up to that. But I think that the end
result was people who normally all run their
own teams, they're all very accomplished within
the stunt world. Instead of all running their
own teams on different projects, we're all working
on that project. And there was just so much experience
and so much camaraderie between them. I felt
like so honored and privileged. to be a part
of their world for that. And it was just a really
special thing to, to get to experience. And then
obviously the jump was cool. And yeah, I just
had a wonderful team of people over there. What
was different when you're now jumping within
a set, what was different compared to if you
just jumped, you know, recreationally? Jumping
within a set is different because there's like
100 people there watching and you're jumping
on someone else's cue, which honestly, it's like
they warned me and I love the people who are
mentors in it. John DeVore and Tim Rigby are
super experienced in that stunt world also and
Eric. what I remember specifically Tim was sharing
knowledge which I love Tim is incredible and
just saying like you know at the end of the day
Katie make sure that you're not jumping if you're
not comfortable and that kind of thing and I
appreciated so much his talking to me about that
and but to be quite honest I feel like you know
I'm comfortable enough with who I am and where
I am in my base jumping I don't really mind the
like quote pressure you can have 5 000 people
watching me i don't really care because it's
really i can just kind of shut them out and when
it came down to it you know pat who's my camera
guy and a really good friend um he and i were
the jumpers and we're standing up there and you
know when they're giving the 30 second call or
whatever it really just feels like me and pat
just like giggling because we are so stoked we
get to jump off this thing and you know it was
easy to make the rest melt away and just focus
on him and doing the job. And, you know, that's
in that one circumstance, it's not to say that,
you know, potentially in another job or someone
else having different circumstances, it can be
harder to tune that out. But on that job in that
moment with that team, it was really no problem.
And it was just very gratifying to be able to
do that. I was proud of myself for the job that
I performed. I feel like working well within
the team and, and yeah, just having fun with
my friend, Pat, which is what it really felt
like in the moment. So it was pretty cool. You
just reminded me of another important thing I've
heard from a lot of people, especially Chris
McDougall, Dukes talked about this. And just
to preface this, there was a story the other
day online of an airline pilot. They'd done some
sort of maintenance thing. I think it was supposed
to go to Hawaii. And he said, I just don't feel
right about this. And he ended up saying, we're
not flying. You know, if there's another plane
available, then we'll deplane and get on to the
next one, or we might have to postpone until
another one does come. And he was trusting his
gut instinct. And I remember Dukes talking about,
you know, some of the jumps that you guys do.
There's a two -hour hike that, you know, is before
it. And despite all of that work, he would say,
when it doesn't feel right, I'd be like, no.
And we'd turn around and we'd walk two hours
back down again. So talk to me about that. You
were told, hey, don't jump if it doesn't feel
right. Talk to me about the responsibility to
yourself of trusting that intuition, even if
you've done hours of preparation prior to that
jump. Well, that's interesting. I feel like that's
kind of touching on two things. One is not jumping
if it's not good, right? Sometimes you get up
there and you're like, oh, conditions suck. That's
an easy one to walk away from. When conditions
are marginal is the hardest, right? When you're
like, ah, it's not really clear one way or the
other. And I feel like intuition plays the biggest
part when everything looks fine and you can't
really put your finger on why, but something
doesn't feel right. And, you know, that's an
important thing to be able to pay attention to
also. And just trusting that, you know. your
subconscious knows something that you you don't
it's trying to tell you and you'll never you
know you're not going to die from the jump that
you didn't do probably so you know unless there's
I mean I laugh because there's exceptions to
that sometimes the approach or you know the retreat
is dangerous you know and you know there's been
times where I felt more comfortable jumping off
something than going back the way we came so
It's not like it's a one size fits all, like,
oh, if it's not good, turn around. But in general,
for sure, Dukes is totally right. You know, it's
worth being uncomfortable or tired or hungry
to turn around and leave and have a story to
tell and live another day than jump when it's
not good. And there's been a lot of jumps that
I've turned around, walked off at, walked off
of over the years, you know, sitting up there
thinking like, it's just not worth it. Or like,
what? If my mom was sitting here talking to me
about it, it's like, ah, I got to make a good
decision, you know? And yeah, Dukes is totally
right. I think most jumpers would agree with
him on that. It's interesting because that carries
over to my profession. And, you know, we've got
a very young fire service at the moment. You
know, I think a lot of departments, about half
their department have got five years or less
on. And, you know, there's of course the overly
cautious side of the fire service where they
don't want anyone going in and we'll just get
it from the outside. And there's times where
that's wrong. You know, there's a rescue that
you could facilitate. And so you do have to make
entry. But then there's also, and I feel like
this kind of mirrors the copycatting that we're
talking about that gets a lot of skydivers hurt
or killed, where it's a very chess beating machismo.
We go in on every fire, you know, and there's
many times where you just can't. conditions dictate
that there is no one viable in there and it's
only risking more firefighters lives by blindly
going into a fire you got no business going into
so i think you know for us that intuition which
i think comes with experience too and that's
the dangerous part of having such a recruitment
crisis and therefore a young fire department
is you got all these people on scene arguably
who may not have seen enough to really develop
that intuition in the first place blindly go
into a fire and then you know lose their lives
too yeah i think that you're spot on there's
a lot of similarities between the two things
and you know the more experience you can get
the more you know broad of a knowledge base you
have to make better decisions in the future absolutely
well before we go to the sphere are there any
other hollywood productions that you've been
working on i wish i'm ready ready and available
Well, let's talk about that then. So Jimmy Chin,
renowned filmmaker, documentarian, obviously
Alex Honnold, legend in himself. How did you
come across this project? And then tell us what
we can expect and when. That is a great question.
I got cold called, to be honest. And this guy,
Davey, who has become a friend of mine. Basically,
it was his brainchild for this whole project.
And he had reached out to me through he said
he tried to find an agent and reach out to me
through a few different platforms. And basically,
it was an Instagram message caught in the filter
because we didn't we weren't connected, you know,
that said, hey, are you interested in doing this
documentary? Blah, blah, blah. And the answer
is always yes until it's no. Right. I wanted
more information. So I was like, oh, it sounds
interesting. Signed an NDA, which. I'm not going
to divulge anything in the NDA that hasn't already
been public publicly put out, but basically I
signed the NDA. And then he said it was for the
sphere in Las Vegas. I saw Jimmy Chin's name
on it. I was like, what is happening? It's like,
I'm in. And he sent me the pitch that had, you
know, it was like 30, like 30 slides of like
info is so in depth. I couldn't believe that
so much information on me. And. And it looked
incredible. And basically, like we touched on
earlier, the premise is about why do we do what
we do? You know, so I'll back up and say it's
an hour, you know, it's a documentary featuring
five different extreme sports athletes, each
from a different extreme sport. With Alex Honnold
is the climber. Kai Lenny is surfing. Marcus
Eder is a skier and Alenka Artnik is a free diver.
And I just feel so honored to have my name amongst
theirs. It's, you know, it's a dream come true
for sure. And it's about why we do what we do.
You know, what's the common thread? Maybe we
all do different extreme sports, but what makes
us tick? What draws us to these things? And,
you know, what is the... the experience and the
analysis and the forethought and the training,
you know, that goes into all this that people
don't necessarily see. And I think, you know,
Jimmy, and I just want to mention too, Chai is
also directing it. But Jimmy is an athlete, you
know, and he wants to bring these things to light
from experience. And it really shows in the way
that he directs and the questions he asks. you
know, the way that I felt we already did some
of the filming for it. And he also made it very
clear, you know, that in the moment, enjoy myself
and, and that we can reset everything and don't
go if it doesn't feel right, you know, and just
felt very supported from the athlete side, but
he very much is inspired to capture, you know,
the beauty of all of the mindset that goes behind
it. It should be an incredible documentary. It
sounds amazing. When are they hoping it's going
to be at the Sphere? The last thing that I saw
released said estimated fall or winter of 2026.
So about a year and a half. Is there a person
that you'd recommend to come on this podcast
as a guest to speak to the first responders,
military and associated professions of the world?
Hmm. I think I would actually recommend my husband,
Matt Lajeunesse. He has an incredible story,
was briefly a firefighter for about six months.
And then, yeah, I'll let him tell his story about.
why that didn't keep going um and is also one
of yeah sean schumo's best friends and i think
uh i think that everyone would love it let's
make it happen then i'd love to have him on thank
you awesome all right well then the last question
before we make sure everyone knows where to find
you what do you do to decompress oh i read books
a lot to decompress um If it's in the evening
and to stay kind of even keeled, I practice mindfulness
in the morning. And even if it's for five or
15 minutes, really try to just get up a few minutes
early when it's still quiet and basically just
center myself. And I've been pretty committed
to a meditation practice that has really helped
keep me calm and grounded. It's interesting.
I used to kind of waffle between go, go, go and
at home decompressing from trips. And I've really
in the last year tried to integrate the two together
and bring some of that peacefulness into those
trips where I'm just charging. And so even when
it's easy to get wrapped up and stuff, still
trying to spend those few moments each morning
detaching from. what I'm actually doing in terms
of, you know, I don't identify myself by what
I do, but who I am. And because we're all just
one, one choice away from never being able to
do these things we love anymore. You know, I
could get in an accident and never skydive again.
And I think that it wouldn't change who I am.
And I make sure that I spend time each moment
identifying as Katie Hanson and the things I
love and the people I love and the things I care
about. And it keeps me a little bit more grounded.
That's exactly what we struggle with in my profession.
The identity becomes the firefighter, the Marine,
whatever it is. And God forbid you get hurt,
you get fired, or you just simply retire. If
that's all you've seen yourself as, one day you're
not anymore, whether you like it or not. But
if you see yourself as James Gearing, who wants
to... help people, and that was in the role of
a lifeguard, and then the role of a firefighter,
and you're this continuing through line, then
the things that you did don't necessarily define
you anymore. Exactly. With the mindfulness, it's
be interesting, because I mean, you know, the
the acuity that you need, free falling from the
sky is, you know, quite unique. One of the things
that I've realized is a lot of the the elements
that will help with mental health, that will
help with, you know, with weight loss, with all
these kinds of things. You can also kind of,
as I say, putting, you know, putting honey on
the medicine, as it were, you can also change
the lens to performance. So if I've got a, you
know, air quotes alpha that doesn't believe that
the mental health is a thing, well, I can talk
about mindfulness and performance. If you really
want to be at a, you know, make entry in a SWAT
call or make entry to a burning building and
get in that flow state. and really see that room
in your mind and find that child you need to
have a calm mind what have you seen as far as
meditation and your performance when you're skydiving
now that is a good question and honestly my skydiving
i'm performing well but i i feel like i'm just
more even keeled at the end of the day and very
comfortable with who i am and um since i started
that practice i've done less competition skydiving
and things like that and more um bigger projects
i would say and my ability to stay focused and
stay calm through like high pressure filming
stuff is as is the best it's ever been i use
headspace you know diligently now it was on and
off for a long time but i'm on a i'm on a good
run at the moment what kind of practice do you
use um right now i'm actually not used i was
on mind valley for a while and i've actually
just kind of ventured into now i'm exploring
just my own it's not guided and just kind of
have my own routine things i go through in the
morning and it's not to say i won't do guided
stuff again but i'm really liking where i'm at
and you know it's always evolving You can change
it. I have masterclass too. I was watching some
of that just about, about meditation, but not
necessarily taking you through a guided one.
And I will say too, I will, I have noticed like
the ability to drop into that headspace is easier
the more you practice it. So like if I am on
top of, you know, a wingsuit base jump and I
haven't jumped in a while, it's always scarier
the first one, you know, when you're not current.
And the ability to, it's funny, it's like basically
when I put my helmet on, it's almost like a physical
conduit into like dropping into that headspace.
And, you know, one of the guys that was filming
us in Switzerland was saying that he could like
feel the energy shift when, because we were goofing
around on the ground a lot, but when we were
up on the exit. he's like whoa because we took
him up there with us he's like that was interesting
to watch you know and being able to shift into
that headspace of uh it's still fun but it's
it's focused and I think that practicing mindfulness
yeah helps to draw me into that headspace more
more easily which ultimately leads to higher
performance and um yeah it's good for good for
safety and for and for performance absolutely
well for people listening if they want to learn
more about you follow you where are the best
places online or social media um best place online
and social media would be through my instagram
right now which is fly with katie and i spell
katie k -a -t -i -e brilliant Well, I want to
thank you so much. It's been such an amazing
conversation. I mean, all the different facets
from the diligence and training and progression
when it comes to skydiving and safety. And then,
you know, your emotional journey from the accident
has been so much to kind of glean from this.
So I want to thank you so much for being so generous
with your time and coming on the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Thanks for having me, James.