WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran

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-owned and operated performance optimization

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company that I introduced recently as a sponsor

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on this show. Well, since then I have actually

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been using my products and I have had incredible

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success. There was initial blood work that was

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extremely detailed and based on that they offered

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supplementation. So I began taking DHEA. bpc

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157 for inflammation based on the fact that i've

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been a stuntman a martial artist and a firefighter

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my whole life lots of aches and pains dihexa

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to help cognition after multiple punches to the

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head and shift work and peptides four months

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later they did a detailed blood work again and

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i was actually able to taper off two of the peptides

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because my body had responded so well to just

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is needed by a lot of the fire service, or whether

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it's exogenous testosterone needed, especially

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after TBIs or advanced age. Now, as I mentioned

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before, the other side of this company is an

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altruistic arm called the Transcend Foundation,

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Now, Transcend are also offering you, the audience,

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on jamesgearing .com under the Products tab.

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And if you want to hear more about Transcend

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and their story, listen to episode 808 with the

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founder, Ernie Colling. or go to transcendcompany

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.com. Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Geering, and this

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week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the

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show Air Force veteran and special agent Jared

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Bonville. Now, in this conversation, we discuss

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a host of topics, from his journey into the military,

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Air Force law enforcement, his role as a special

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agent, deployments in Afghanistan, mental health,

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medical cannabis, and so much more. Now, before

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we get to this incredible conversation, as I

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say every week, please just take a moment, go

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to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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well over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in

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return is that you help share these incredible

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men and women's stories so I can get them to

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every single person on planet Earth who needs

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to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce

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to you, Jared Bonvel. Enjoy. Well, Jared, I want

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to start by saying two things. Firstly, thank

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you to our mutual friend Hunter for making this

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connection. And secondly, to welcome you onto

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the Behind the Shield podcast today. Thank you

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very much, James. Pleasure being here. Hunter's

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a great guy that brought us together. Absolutely.

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So very first question, where on planet Earth

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are we finding you this afternoon? I'm in a little

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small town in northern Kentucky, out in the country.

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Well, I'm not great with accents, but it sounds

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like that's probably where you've been for a

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while. So tell me where you were born and tell

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me a little bit about your family dynamic, what

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your parents did, how many siblings. Absolutely.

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Childhood was pretty normal in my book, but it

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was a small family. Mom and dad got divorced

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when I was young, so moved around a little bit.

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Raised by my grandma quite a bit with my mom.

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And then I was about 11. I moved down to Florida

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and went through school there. My mom met a guy

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and he was still my stepfather and a really good

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man. He was a law enforcement officer for over

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30 years down in Florida. So a lot of my growing

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up, I kind of followed his lead, got interested

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in law enforcement. And initially, that's what

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I wanted to do. But, you know, when it came time

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to go in the military, I had a few different

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options. And I ended up being an aircraft armament

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systems technician, which put me on the B -2

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program right out of tech school, which is pretty

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neat. So that first half of my career was on

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the B -2 program and then comes into where I

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met Hunter. The Air Force has a program called

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the Air Force Office of Special Investigations

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that are federally trained investigators that

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do law enforcement and overseas counterintelligence

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missions, identifying threats and neutralizing

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those situations. And that's what I did the second

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half of my career is that. So that's in and of

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a nutshell, a couple of deployments in there,

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a lot of ups and downs. Very good family values.

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My dad was always in my life, stepdad. So I had

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a couple of dads to bounce things off of. But

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I had only child, but we had a lot of cousins.

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So all the cousins are kind of like my brothers

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and sisters. You said you moved to Florida. Where

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were you originally? Was it in Kentucky or somewhere

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else? Yeah, that's where I was in northern Kentucky.

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And that's kind of where I came back full circle

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eventually. So I had this conversation with Hunter,

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so many other people, and I always credit Jake

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Clark for opening my eyes. He's the guy that

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created Safer Warrior, another great mental health

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organization. The prevalence of mental health

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struggles, challenges, trauma, whatever you want

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to call it, in our early years in people in uniform.

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I think it sends a lot of us to, whether it's

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filling the void, be the protector, all the things,

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build the armor around ourselves. You mentioned

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that there was good family values, there was

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divorce, but you're still in contact with both

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your father and then your stepfather. When you

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reflect back, were there elements that were struggles

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that you would have carried with into the job?

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Oh, absolutely. You know, I think as we grow

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older, we look back at things and we see them

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in a completely different light in a lot of ways.

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The things that I didn't look at struggles then,

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I just looked at normal life. I look back on

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it, I'm like. Man, that really sucked. Like it

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didn't have to be that hard. And I think that's

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kind of why that's led me to where I'm at today.

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The amount of, I guess, nonprofit involvement,

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helping veterans directly. I try to stay out

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of the paid nonprofits. So, you know, just makes

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it a little bit easier for me. I like giving

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money away to people that need it. But growing

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up, I saw. that we needed certain things sometimes

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and we didn't have it. I mean, I was pretty poor.

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Um, I still shop out of Goodwill a lot of times.

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Um, just the way I grew up. Um, I think I didn't

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even, you know, 12, 11, 12 years old going to

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school. You see everybody wearing the sponsored

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clothes with Nike and Adidas and all that. And

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I was excited when Kmart sold a pair of Nikes

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finally, cause I can get it. a pair of shoes

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with the swoosh on, you know? So pretty humble

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beginnings, but the military just, I liked that

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tribe type mentality. And as you know, you know,

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that's, that comes and goes depending on where

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you're at. Absolutely. What about sports? What

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were you playing when you were in the school

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age? I was absolutely the most non -athletic

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individual you've ever met in your life. Mom

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and dad, they tried to keep me in sports, doing

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baseball, soccer. But to be honest, I was horrible

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at it. Like, you know, I like shooting, fishing,

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hunting, building stuff, making things. You know,

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I take apart my mom's calculator and hide it

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because I couldn't figure out how to put it back

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together. Or I'd take the LEDs out of it and

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wire it up and make a flashlight. I was doing

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that at like five or six. So running around a

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field didn't really. interest me so i got into

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the more technological side of things did you

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find an element of catharsis of healing when

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you were out in the woods hunting and fishing

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oh absolutely and it's weird because you know

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when i went through everything i went through

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i lost that it sucks to even think about what

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that was back then because um Before the wars,

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had a bass boat, 20 fishing rods, no issues,

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going out for days, enjoying it. Second you come

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back, no enjoyment of anything, really. The one

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thing that I can't get over is the emotional

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connection to those events. It hurt that bad.

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And these aren't tears. It's weird. It's not

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tears of sadness. It's tears of like, thank God

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I'm not there anymore. And it's more of a sadness

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that I know so many of my buddies that are in

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a dark place. But they just keep getting medicated.

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And doping themselves up. And because they don't

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want to feel the emotion. So now I get emotional

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when I think like. There are still folks out

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here that are feeling this way that don't have

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to. And there's so many opportunities that we

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can provide or that they can get to, but they're

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being sheltered, being lied to in a lot of ways.

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And, you know, with the work that I've done legislatively,

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speaking to the decision makers makes you even

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sicker. It's horrible because it's not a conversation

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of right and wrong or. what can help people.

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It's always about a quid pro quo or a power or

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money issue. And, you know, to feel this strongly

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about recovery and helping people and seeing

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that makes it so much more difficult. Everybody

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could just get on the same page and say, hey,

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let's try to work together. And I think we're

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seeing that now. I truly believe that. 90 years,

00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:20.059
right? Well, I think, I mean, it has, it's taken

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us to get to, you know, what I would term as

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idiocracy. And if you've ever seen that film,

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like we are there now. And it was so funny. A

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few times, like the costume designer of idiocracy

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was looking for a shoe for this fictional world

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that no one would ever wear in real life. And

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bearing in mind, this was made, I think it was

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the end of the nineties and they chose Crocs.

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So, like, we are there in every shape or form.

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Like, our president is at the WWE wrestling all

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the time. You know, I mean, it's to a T. I told

00:11:50.899 --> 00:11:52.840
somebody that the other day. If I woke up tomorrow

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and saw Terry Crews as president and we were

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watering our crops with Brondo, I'd be like,

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yep. Seems right. I get it. But I think just

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like you were saying, though, you know, I stepped

00:12:06.580 --> 00:12:08.500
on you for a second. I apologize. But I agree

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100 percent. I am incurably yet angry, optimistic.

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You know, I mean, truly, some people need to

00:12:15.220 --> 00:12:16.879
be punched in the face. So that's where the anger

00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:19.460
is still there. And it's legitimate. But I think

00:12:19.460 --> 00:12:21.679
that we are now having an awakening as a society

00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:24.200
that have been set against each other. You know,

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whether it was a Democrat per Republican thing,

00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:29.580
whether it was a pro or anti mask thing, whatever

00:12:29.580 --> 00:12:31.879
the thing was at that moment, you know, the police.

00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:36.240
But I think now the curtain has been pulled back

00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:38.940
and I'm extremely optimistic. And this conversation

00:12:38.940 --> 00:12:41.860
we're going to have today is one of those examples.

00:12:42.179 --> 00:12:43.919
I mean, another one, if you want to talk about,

00:12:43.940 --> 00:12:47.340
you know, just complete mismanagement and government

00:12:47.340 --> 00:12:49.440
overreach. If you look at COVID, which began

00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:51.580
on one political party, then carried on another.

00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:55.220
And the very thing that you said was cathartic

00:12:55.220 --> 00:12:58.379
was withheld from everyone during that. Oh, don't

00:12:58.379 --> 00:13:00.500
go outside. Don't go fishing. Don't go hunting.

00:13:00.659 --> 00:13:03.139
You know, don't eat real food. Don't talk to

00:13:03.139 --> 00:13:05.299
your neighbors. Don't see your family. The world's

00:13:05.299 --> 00:13:08.440
greatest psychological operation ever seen. Absolutely.

00:13:08.679 --> 00:13:12.480
And so now we need to reflect and figure out,

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okay, who were the good leaders? There were some

00:13:14.980 --> 00:13:17.480
out there. Who were the people that were doing

00:13:17.480 --> 00:13:20.159
things right? And where was the complete fallacy?

00:13:20.220 --> 00:13:23.220
And to say that was about the people's health

00:13:23.220 --> 00:13:26.000
when you did nothing about the obesity crisis,

00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:28.240
for example. that was really what was killing

00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:30.500
people through COVID, then it was never about

00:13:30.500 --> 00:13:32.340
health. And I think people are finally starting

00:13:32.340 --> 00:13:35.320
to realize that there are some incredible humans

00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:37.960
that care about this country. And there are some

00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:40.220
people that are just simply, you know, carrying,

00:13:40.379 --> 00:13:42.340
that are just picking this country apart for

00:13:42.340 --> 00:13:45.740
their own benefit. My buddy posted a meme yesterday,

00:13:45.779 --> 00:13:47.899
or posted a little comment yesterday. It says,

00:13:47.980 --> 00:13:50.899
if your doctor isn't talking to you about your

00:13:50.899 --> 00:13:53.240
diet and lifestyle before he gives you a pill,

00:13:53.340 --> 00:13:55.039
you don't have a doctor, you've got a dealer.

00:13:55.960 --> 00:14:01.639
100%. And that it's legal, though. That's what

00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:04.340
everybody goes to. I saw another one that said

00:14:04.340 --> 00:14:08.259
the future doctors are using AI to do their classwork.

00:14:08.299 --> 00:14:10.580
So you better start exercising and eating right.

00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:17.240
That was just as true. Exactly. All right. Well,

00:14:17.259 --> 00:14:20.080
then. So that was kind of the the activity side

00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:21.720
then. And that was, you know, a very powerful

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moment. And I'd love to hear, you know, if you

00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:25.820
circle around to that as we progress through

00:14:25.820 --> 00:14:28.639
this conversation. You mentioned about being

00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:31.000
inspired as far as the law enforcement side through

00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:33.399
your stepfather as you were kind of getting to

00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:35.580
the end of high school. What were your career

00:14:35.580 --> 00:14:39.740
aspirations at that point? You know, initially

00:14:39.740 --> 00:14:43.820
I was actually in Navy ROTC down in Florida for

00:14:43.820 --> 00:14:47.620
a few years. But being on a boat did not interest

00:14:47.620 --> 00:14:51.320
me at all. I was like, no, not going to do it

00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:56.419
in the Air Force. It was just they really came

00:14:56.419 --> 00:14:58.120
after me pretty hard because of my test scores.

00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:03.539
And initially I was going to go EOD because I

00:15:03.539 --> 00:15:06.120
had the test scores to make it, which is a very

00:15:06.120 --> 00:15:09.519
small career field. But I would have had to wait

00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:15.190
another six months to get into a class. I just

00:15:15.190 --> 00:15:18.750
I wanted to go. I didn't have a real desire to

00:15:18.750 --> 00:15:21.169
go to college. So there was nothing in my little

00:15:21.169 --> 00:15:23.990
town of Dade City, Florida, that was keeping

00:15:23.990 --> 00:15:30.350
me there. So I decided to move on. And the quickest

00:15:30.350 --> 00:15:32.809
class I could get to was an aircraft armament

00:15:32.809 --> 00:15:37.009
class. So I think a month after I graduated,

00:15:37.129 --> 00:15:41.990
I was at basic training at Lackland. And that's

00:15:41.990 --> 00:15:45.539
where it all started. Now, educate me. The B

00:15:45.539 --> 00:15:47.440
-2 bomber, is that what we know as a stealth

00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:50.700
bomber? Yes. So the one that looks like a big

00:15:50.700 --> 00:15:55.980
bat wing? Yeah. And that was an intense job.

00:15:56.159 --> 00:16:00.200
I mean, you're working on a $2 billion piece

00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:03.500
of equipment, you know. And this was in the late

00:16:03.500 --> 00:16:06.779
90s where there was only 10 of them in existence

00:16:06.779 --> 00:16:10.019
when I got there. They didn't have the full fleet.

00:16:12.299 --> 00:16:15.139
And we were part of, you know, the development

00:16:15.139 --> 00:16:17.500
of a lot of the weapon systems that went into

00:16:17.500 --> 00:16:22.179
that plane. And we were also the career group

00:16:22.179 --> 00:16:24.759
that was the first use of that combat plane,

00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:30.120
whether it be Kosovo, Afghanistan, we were there.

00:16:30.820 --> 00:16:35.419
So 9 -11, we were all on the flight line during

00:16:35.419 --> 00:16:38.440
a big exercise. And within 24 hours of that.

00:16:38.889 --> 00:16:41.129
We were reloaded up, ready to go overseas and

00:16:41.129 --> 00:16:43.970
handle business. So talk to me, expand on that

00:16:43.970 --> 00:16:46.269
a little bit more. That day, you've been in,

00:16:46.309 --> 00:16:48.350
what, a couple years, three years by that point?

00:16:48.710 --> 00:16:52.590
How did that day unfold through your eyes, and

00:16:52.590 --> 00:16:54.590
then how did that shift as far as operationally

00:16:54.590 --> 00:17:00.610
for you? Oh, that was intense. A lot of people

00:17:00.610 --> 00:17:03.070
don't even want to talk about that back then.

00:17:06.170 --> 00:17:08.990
One thing a lot of people don't know is all the

00:17:08.990 --> 00:17:12.250
bombers in the United States and globally were

00:17:12.250 --> 00:17:15.170
part of an exercise that day called Global Guardian.

00:17:15.789 --> 00:17:18.650
And these nuclear exercises, when they happen,

00:17:18.769 --> 00:17:23.809
they're very precise. And there's a lot of secret

00:17:23.809 --> 00:17:27.190
stuff that goes on and how it's done. But a lot

00:17:27.190 --> 00:17:30.670
of it's regulatory based on the START treaties

00:17:30.670 --> 00:17:34.839
and how everything has to happen. The pilots

00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:37.779
had just responded out to their aircraft for

00:17:37.779 --> 00:17:42.539
the mock exercise. And my load crew was actually

00:17:42.539 --> 00:17:45.859
in the, we had a little kitchen on the flight

00:17:45.859 --> 00:17:47.980
line where you could go in and get a hot meal

00:17:47.980 --> 00:17:51.200
if you couldn't make it to the chow hall. And

00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:54.079
we're standing in line when we saw the planes

00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:58.740
hit. And we thought it was kind of a joke. Like,

00:17:58.779 --> 00:18:02.519
what is this? Like, this can't be real. And then

00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:04.900
all of a sudden, all the sirens went off. And

00:18:04.900 --> 00:18:07.940
by that time, the pilots were actually on their

00:18:07.940 --> 00:18:12.799
way back in to finish the exercise. And it was

00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:15.279
the first time, I think, since the Cold War that

00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:19.579
the planes were fired up and ready to move. It

00:18:19.579 --> 00:18:23.660
was scary because we all heard codes and words

00:18:23.660 --> 00:18:27.740
and things that had never been spoken in public.

00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:32.349
And you see a six pack. Four -wheel drive truck

00:18:32.349 --> 00:18:36.190
spinning out, driving about 80 miles an hour

00:18:36.190 --> 00:18:38.049
to a bay. You're like, this is serious. This

00:18:38.049 --> 00:18:44.210
ain't no exercise. Within 24 hours, we were downloaded,

00:18:44.470 --> 00:18:46.390
re -uploaded, and ready to go strike targets.

00:18:47.869 --> 00:18:52.569
Interesting story about that is General Tibbetts.

00:18:53.289 --> 00:18:58.230
I served with his grandson. you know you got

00:18:58.230 --> 00:19:00.970
general paul w tibbets that was involved in uh

00:19:00.970 --> 00:19:04.069
the bomber back in the day and now i'm working

00:19:04.069 --> 00:19:08.009
on the b2 bomber with his grandson so it was

00:19:08.009 --> 00:19:10.730
being part of history you don't really realize

00:19:10.730 --> 00:19:14.130
it when it's happening that's crazy so did that

00:19:14.130 --> 00:19:16.470
involve you actually deploying to the middle

00:19:16.470 --> 00:19:19.970
east to be alongside the bombers not at all no

00:19:19.970 --> 00:19:21.849
see they don't they don't land overseas it's

00:19:21.849 --> 00:19:28.539
a 34 -hour mission round trip so and it's It's

00:19:28.539 --> 00:19:32.480
intense because you're just waiting. There's

00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:34.440
a lot of communication that goes back and forth,

00:19:34.539 --> 00:19:37.900
but you go to work, you come home, you go to

00:19:37.900 --> 00:19:42.259
work another day, you come home, go back to work,

00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:44.160
and you catch that plane that left two days before.

00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:48.279
You can't even wrap your mind around these guys

00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:51.180
have been stuck in that little cockpit for 34

00:19:51.180 --> 00:19:57.019
hours accomplishing this mission. Are they rotating

00:19:57.019 --> 00:19:59.859
crew? you know you're getting some crew rest

00:19:59.859 --> 00:20:06.140
yeah so it was uh it's an interesting time early

00:20:06.140 --> 00:20:10.619
on in my career absolutely so you mentioned that

00:20:10.619 --> 00:20:12.200
was kind of like half of your career and then

00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:14.240
obviously the second half was in the special

00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:17.299
investigations what was kind of the rest of that

00:20:17.299 --> 00:20:20.720
like for you as far as you know the the the war

00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:22.819
has begun now obviously there's a there's a shift

00:20:22.819 --> 00:20:24.799
in op tempo kind of you know walk me through

00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:26.799
the through line for the rest of the aviation

00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:31.279
side After the B -2 program, I went to Korea

00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:35.480
and I was supposed to work on F -16s, on all

00:20:35.480 --> 00:20:38.759
the equipment like the bomb racks and the missile

00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:41.819
launchers, the gun systems. But they had a position

00:20:41.819 --> 00:20:44.220
open for a security manager for the maintenance

00:20:44.220 --> 00:20:47.640
squadron. It's kind of like a back office job.

00:20:47.940 --> 00:20:50.680
And Korea is kind of like one of those places

00:20:50.680 --> 00:20:53.160
you come off the plane, you get plucked, you

00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:58.440
do what you got to do. but i had a lot of fun

00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:01.660
there too um because i got down into the weeds

00:21:01.660 --> 00:21:04.559
worked with the security forces quite a bit on

00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:07.240
the anti -terrorism force protection side of

00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:10.799
things i actually got to drive one of the last

00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:14.339
armored personal personnel carriers in the air

00:21:14.339 --> 00:21:19.140
force wrm inventory while i was there so that's

00:21:19.140 --> 00:21:21.259
something that was in like world war ii you know

00:21:21.259 --> 00:21:23.720
we're still messing with it on an island in korea

00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:29.089
or on a peninsula korea um A lot of, you know,

00:21:29.089 --> 00:21:31.970
with anti -terrorism force protection, started

00:21:31.970 --> 00:21:38.410
seeing the political and danger side of things

00:21:38.410 --> 00:21:40.970
and the threats that we were facing. You know,

00:21:40.990 --> 00:21:42.930
when you live on a base and you do certain things

00:21:42.930 --> 00:21:45.049
on a base, you're worried about what you're doing.

00:21:45.470 --> 00:21:47.750
The guys that are outside worry about what's

00:21:47.750 --> 00:21:49.829
going on to keep you protected inside. So you

00:21:49.829 --> 00:21:52.170
never have to worry about anything really bad

00:21:52.170 --> 00:21:56.150
going down on a military installation. until

00:21:56.150 --> 00:22:01.910
recently, unfortunately. But being able to see

00:22:01.910 --> 00:22:07.549
how all that kind of worked together in the investigative

00:22:07.549 --> 00:22:09.829
side of things, I started getting exposed more

00:22:09.829 --> 00:22:13.630
to the counterintelligence world and identifying

00:22:13.630 --> 00:22:16.509
the threats before they became a threat, for

00:22:16.509 --> 00:22:19.430
the most part. What about your time in Korea,

00:22:19.609 --> 00:22:22.309
the Korean people? Talk to me about, it's so

00:22:22.309 --> 00:22:25.559
interesting hearing elements of culture some

00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:28.519
that may be you know really progressive and have

00:22:28.519 --> 00:22:30.359
elements that we should be using here and then

00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:32.019
vice versa obviously there might be some that

00:22:32.019 --> 00:22:35.880
are maybe behind in some areas you know the biggest

00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:38.660
thing I could say because I went from Korea to

00:22:38.660 --> 00:22:45.200
Italy and that was a polar opposite because you

00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:48.339
know a Korean will work eight days a week 25

00:22:48.339 --> 00:22:51.680
hours a day for very little money and just to

00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:55.160
make you happy like If you're buying a blanket

00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:58.339
or something on the street from them, two shop

00:22:58.339 --> 00:23:00.319
owners will start bickering back and forth until

00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:02.500
you're paying maybe a tenth of the price for

00:23:02.500 --> 00:23:05.299
one of them. And there's no way they can make

00:23:05.299 --> 00:23:07.279
money like that. A lot of times it's a show,

00:23:07.299 --> 00:23:10.839
but they really enjoy the American people. And

00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:13.059
if you treat them right, they treat you right.

00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:17.980
But then I went to Italy and tried to set up

00:23:17.980 --> 00:23:22.339
a house and an Italian. Italian told me this.

00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:26.380
He said, look, you Americans, you live to work.

00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:31.700
We work to live. Figure that out, right? I'm

00:23:31.700 --> 00:23:34.480
like, okay. So, you know, in Italian, they want

00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:36.680
to work four days a week, seven hours a day.

00:23:36.740 --> 00:23:40.440
And if it gets done, it gets done. So very, very

00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:43.380
laissez -faire, right? It's awesome. Like it's

00:23:43.380 --> 00:23:46.259
the European style of things. Like you shouldn't

00:23:46.259 --> 00:23:49.269
have to work yourself to the bone. every single

00:23:49.269 --> 00:23:51.890
day to be able to scrape by a meager existence

00:23:51.890 --> 00:23:56.789
um you know and that can go a lot of different

00:23:56.789 --> 00:23:59.809
ways i think it's the families that support that

00:23:59.809 --> 00:24:03.390
you know you see family values everywhere but

00:24:03.390 --> 00:24:05.470
it seems to be a little bit stronger in some

00:24:05.470 --> 00:24:08.190
areas in europe um more protected i guess you

00:24:08.190 --> 00:24:12.390
could say um there's just so much division here

00:24:12.390 --> 00:24:15.680
everything's getting ripped apart It's interesting

00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:17.680
if you look at, obviously, a lot of Hispanic

00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:21.440
cultures, as you said, Italian, Portuguese. My

00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:23.859
mom and my brother both moved there from the

00:24:23.859 --> 00:24:27.160
UK. You have that community. You have, again,

00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:30.960
yes, they work, but the tempo is a lot less.

00:24:31.220 --> 00:24:33.359
And then you have multi -generational households.

00:24:33.819 --> 00:24:36.619
Rather than, oh, I kicked my son out at 18. Now

00:24:36.619 --> 00:24:39.160
he's got to pay for his own apartment. And then

00:24:39.160 --> 00:24:41.380
grandma's living in another place over there.

00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:44.599
it makes a lot more sense to have one, you know,

00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:46.000
and having everyone together. And obviously if

00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:47.819
the son gets married and then they get their

00:24:47.819 --> 00:24:50.140
own home, but there's a lot of things that we

00:24:50.140 --> 00:24:52.819
do, you know, I think that totally missed the

00:24:52.819 --> 00:24:54.619
boat. And we have people now that have to work

00:24:54.619 --> 00:24:56.960
two jobs so they can pay for daycare for their

00:24:56.960 --> 00:24:59.740
children when the village used to take care of

00:24:59.740 --> 00:25:01.539
everyone's kids, you know? So I think we've,

00:25:01.579 --> 00:25:04.500
we would do well to kind of circle around to

00:25:04.500 --> 00:25:07.220
the way we used to do it a long time ago. Well,

00:25:07.299 --> 00:25:10.640
speaking of that. we had a reunion of uh some

00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:14.980
afghanistan buddies um last year and uh we were

00:25:14.980 --> 00:25:17.220
blessed to have our interpreter back here um

00:25:17.220 --> 00:25:20.640
and somebody asked him what's the biggest difference

00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:22.960
between our cultures and he thought for a second

00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:27.140
and he said you know when your parents get old

00:25:27.140 --> 00:25:28.940
you kick them out and you put them in a home

00:25:28.940 --> 00:25:33.940
he said i don't care if everybody in our family

00:25:33.940 --> 00:25:37.640
hates each other At least one person will stay

00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:40.119
in the home with the parents and take care of

00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:44.740
them. That is their duty, their honor duty. And

00:25:44.740 --> 00:25:47.319
that blew me away. Like you ain't wrong, buddy.

00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:50.099
Like everybody's just putting folks in homes

00:25:50.099 --> 00:25:52.279
instead of actually caring for themselves. It's

00:25:52.279 --> 00:25:55.400
become a business, an expensive business. You

00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:57.180
start going down that route and see how many

00:25:57.180 --> 00:25:59.220
hundreds of thousands of dollars get sucked up,

00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:03.859
taken away from families. Cultures are different.

00:26:05.420 --> 00:26:08.779
Going back to Italy for a second, it's interesting.

00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:12.759
As you said, we are the kind of capitalistic

00:26:12.759 --> 00:26:16.259
idealism that was sold to us, this chasing the

00:26:16.259 --> 00:26:19.299
mighty dollar, the monopoly. You look at the

00:26:19.299 --> 00:26:22.279
progressive businesses now, they're actually

00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:25.359
going to a four -day workweek, a four, nine -hour

00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:28.059
workweek, a three -day weekend for these people.

00:26:28.140 --> 00:26:29.259
They've done it in Iceland, they've done it in

00:26:29.259 --> 00:26:31.599
the UK, huge success. I know it's taken off here.

00:26:32.430 --> 00:26:34.369
And it's kind of ridiculed by some people, like

00:26:34.369 --> 00:26:36.029
you said, you know, I'll sleep when I'm dead.

00:26:36.130 --> 00:26:39.130
But you're missing the point. The point is your

00:26:39.130 --> 00:26:42.950
family. You don't owe it to a corporation that

00:26:42.950 --> 00:26:44.970
doesn't care. You know, the moment you leave,

00:26:45.069 --> 00:26:46.849
another person will be there. Same with the fire

00:26:46.849 --> 00:26:49.130
department, same with the military. When that

00:26:49.130 --> 00:26:51.710
line is crossed where it goes from, of course,

00:26:51.710 --> 00:26:53.910
we've got to work. But now you're putting the

00:26:53.910 --> 00:26:56.690
job ahead of your family. As a culture, I think

00:26:56.690 --> 00:26:59.789
we've become skewed at that point. Well, I mean,

00:26:59.809 --> 00:27:04.339
isn't that what? Every time we talk, we bring

00:27:04.339 --> 00:27:06.720
up another rabbit hole. When we talk about how

00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:10.140
mothers were taken out of the household so that

00:27:10.140 --> 00:27:13.180
the government could get a second tax base. Now

00:27:13.180 --> 00:27:17.019
they expect both mommy and daddy to work. Who's

00:27:17.019 --> 00:27:19.700
going to take care of the kid? And then teachers

00:27:19.700 --> 00:27:21.680
wonder, well, why are you not raising your kids?

00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:27.119
We're both at work. Yeah. A number of people

00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:29.099
I've had on this show that have said the phrase,

00:27:29.299 --> 00:27:32.589
I was a latchkey kid. And that's, you know, both

00:27:32.589 --> 00:27:34.349
parents that care, but they've got to pay the

00:27:34.349 --> 00:27:35.710
mortgage. They got to pay for food. They got

00:27:35.710 --> 00:27:37.829
to pay for the clothing and the schooling costs

00:27:37.829 --> 00:27:40.250
and all these other things. So, you know, I think

00:27:40.250 --> 00:27:43.410
what I've realized and all these people have

00:27:43.410 --> 00:27:45.190
had on the show, including people from Afghanistan,

00:27:45.269 --> 00:27:49.069
is there are elements of every single culture,

00:27:49.150 --> 00:27:50.990
every single country around the world that are

00:27:50.990 --> 00:27:53.450
doing things better than anyone else. And if

00:27:53.450 --> 00:27:57.369
we can just have the humility as a global, you

00:27:57.369 --> 00:28:00.680
know, international community. to learn from

00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:03.400
each other is that the rising tide lifts all

00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:05.759
ships you know if we look at norway's prisons

00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:08.460
we look at finland's education system you know

00:28:08.460 --> 00:28:12.180
the uk's healthcare before they it up the nhs

00:28:12.180 --> 00:28:15.180
at its core you know there are such great great

00:28:15.180 --> 00:28:18.079
um models that everyone else could use and obviously

00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:21.039
the states we have many many areas that are fantastic

00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:24.200
but you know if you just arrogantly beat your

00:28:24.200 --> 00:28:26.059
chest and say we're the greatest country in the

00:28:26.059 --> 00:28:29.710
world well we have you know just countless school

00:28:29.710 --> 00:28:32.470
shootings and 70 % of the country is obese and

00:28:32.470 --> 00:28:36.250
we consume 75 % of the world's opioids and 25

00:28:36.250 --> 00:28:39.769
% of the world's incarcerated population, you

00:28:39.769 --> 00:28:41.849
can't run around saying you're the greatest country

00:28:41.849 --> 00:28:43.869
in the world. It's just, that's not, it doesn't

00:28:43.869 --> 00:28:46.670
work that way. But if you're humble and you ask

00:28:46.670 --> 00:28:48.970
other countries, how did you do that? We're struggling

00:28:48.970 --> 00:28:51.589
with that. What did you do? Imagine the changes

00:28:51.589 --> 00:28:54.230
that we'd work, you know, make us an entire planet.

00:28:54.809 --> 00:28:56.849
you know if everyone just you know knowledge

00:28:56.849 --> 00:29:01.630
shared and was just humble you know i find it

00:29:01.630 --> 00:29:04.529
hard to find people that have been out of their

00:29:04.529 --> 00:29:07.670
county or state though sometimes so there's so

00:29:07.670 --> 00:29:12.490
many people with a very very narrow mindset and

00:29:12.490 --> 00:29:16.430
they're not willing to ex accept any outside

00:29:16.430 --> 00:29:23.329
changes at all levels you know whether it's somebody's

00:29:23.329 --> 00:29:25.630
never left their county or somebody that's in

00:29:25.630 --> 00:29:27.829
a position of power in the legislative branch

00:29:27.829 --> 00:29:33.710
they're these processes and procedures and legislative

00:29:33.710 --> 00:29:38.390
rules like it's it's all seen to stifle all of

00:29:38.390 --> 00:29:42.210
that like it doesn't matter if you've got the

00:29:42.210 --> 00:29:46.390
absolute best idea that could solve problem x

00:29:47.289 --> 00:29:49.930
i guarantee you there's five out of ten people

00:29:49.930 --> 00:29:51.750
that you got to get through that are just gonna

00:29:51.750 --> 00:29:56.450
say no without even considering it and that's

00:29:56.450 --> 00:29:59.289
what's disappointing you know you can't make

00:29:59.289 --> 00:30:02.609
any progress like that it's funny you say that

00:30:02.609 --> 00:30:04.769
because and people listen to this podcast have

00:30:04.769 --> 00:30:08.089
heard me talk about this so much but firefighters

00:30:08.089 --> 00:30:12.769
in america on average work 56 hours a week and

00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:15.839
As they have got sicker and as we lose more,

00:30:16.019 --> 00:30:18.220
you know, and these working conditions get worse

00:30:18.220 --> 00:30:20.680
because fewer people want to work and now there's

00:30:20.680 --> 00:30:22.859
more vacancies, so people are forced to work

00:30:22.859 --> 00:30:26.819
more overtime. I have been saying for a long

00:30:26.819 --> 00:30:28.880
time, not the only voice, but certainly one of

00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:31.140
them, that we have to change the way we work

00:30:31.140 --> 00:30:33.700
our firefighters. And the solution is what they

00:30:33.700 --> 00:30:38.299
call a 24 -72, so a 42 -hour work week. If people

00:30:38.299 --> 00:30:40.759
could see the resistance that I got, especially

00:30:40.759 --> 00:30:43.440
at the beginning. From the very people, even

00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:45.339
that you're trying to help, that'll never happen.

00:30:45.420 --> 00:30:47.160
They'll never go for it. There's not the money.

00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:50.160
All the reasons why not to and not even a breath

00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:52.519
was taken to ask, well, how can we make this

00:30:52.519 --> 00:30:56.339
work? But here we are now in 2025 and in Florida,

00:30:56.440 --> 00:30:59.579
I just actually was told of a North Carolina

00:30:59.579 --> 00:31:01.099
one that went to it. But Florida, we've had,

00:31:01.180 --> 00:31:04.079
I think, 11 departments change in the last two

00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:06.339
years. And it's happening. It's a revolution.

00:31:06.380 --> 00:31:10.289
It's dying. But that's because. We managed to

00:31:10.289 --> 00:31:13.769
finally circumnavigate the red tape, the apathy,

00:31:13.829 --> 00:31:16.410
the cowardice, all the barriers that were there,

00:31:16.529 --> 00:31:19.130
because the end result is you're going to save

00:31:19.130 --> 00:31:20.589
money. You're going to save lives. You're going

00:31:20.589 --> 00:31:23.170
to save families, period. There is it's irrefutable.

00:31:23.869 --> 00:31:27.250
And I hope that then kind of push the conversation,

00:31:27.690 --> 00:31:29.869
realize that that can be applied to other areas

00:31:29.869 --> 00:31:31.750
to all these areas where you said, oh, that will

00:31:31.750 --> 00:31:33.789
never happen. You've got to ask yourself, well,

00:31:33.829 --> 00:31:36.190
why not? Why would that not happen? You know,

00:31:36.190 --> 00:31:38.349
what are the barriers and how can we start smashing

00:31:38.349 --> 00:31:42.250
through them? Well, see, again, when you're changing

00:31:42.250 --> 00:31:46.430
a process in the capitalist society, you're you're

00:31:46.430 --> 00:31:48.490
not just affecting that process. You're affecting

00:31:48.490 --> 00:31:50.910
everybody else involved in that process. So there's

00:31:50.910 --> 00:31:53.930
such a resistance to change because people are

00:31:53.930 --> 00:31:55.529
going to be worried that their businesses are

00:31:55.529 --> 00:31:58.069
going to be undercut in some level of fashion.

00:31:58.170 --> 00:32:01.970
You know, with the medical marijuana legalization

00:32:01.970 --> 00:32:05.130
legislation that I've dealt with, as we spoke

00:32:05.130 --> 00:32:09.559
with before, law enforcement is a huge. barrier

00:32:09.559 --> 00:32:14.359
in a lot of these conversations but that's their

00:32:14.359 --> 00:32:17.700
charge to be right like they're supposed to be

00:32:17.700 --> 00:32:20.859
if you have a chief of police that says they

00:32:20.859 --> 00:32:24.259
support against you know going against the law

00:32:24.259 --> 00:32:28.859
then that's not what their charge is so um it's

00:32:28.859 --> 00:32:31.099
difficult for a lot of these entities to change

00:32:31.099 --> 00:32:35.980
because they're they're responsible to somebody

00:32:35.980 --> 00:32:38.480
and they don't want to get knocked off or whatever

00:32:39.960 --> 00:32:42.680
I think that one of the great things that Kentucky

00:32:42.680 --> 00:32:46.220
did is the Kentucky Association of Chiefs of

00:32:46.220 --> 00:32:52.039
Police stayed neutral on this situation and allowed

00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:54.319
Kentucky to pass the medical cannabis issue.

00:32:56.500 --> 00:32:59.000
And, you know, the biggest hurdle I saw there

00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:02.400
is the eradication efforts that the different

00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:06.559
task forces deal with. A lot of local departments

00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:10.019
get so much funding from having a member on some

00:33:10.019 --> 00:33:14.180
of the drug war task forces that if they lose

00:33:14.180 --> 00:33:17.500
that money, they can't afford to have that officer

00:33:17.500 --> 00:33:20.599
anymore. So they think that any legalization

00:33:20.599 --> 00:33:23.960
is going to lead to less enforcement actions,

00:33:24.099 --> 00:33:30.599
which it may, which it should. But we're seeing

00:33:30.599 --> 00:33:33.910
positive change. I was talking to someone the

00:33:33.910 --> 00:33:36.789
other day and I made the statement, which I've

00:33:36.789 --> 00:33:39.890
said many, many times when it comes to the pharmaceutical

00:33:39.890 --> 00:33:42.509
company, there's no money in healthy people.

00:33:42.609 --> 00:33:44.529
There's no money in dead people. There's only

00:33:44.529 --> 00:33:47.450
money in sick people. And I was corrected and

00:33:47.450 --> 00:33:48.890
they said, well, no, there's a lot of money in

00:33:48.890 --> 00:33:51.250
healthy people. That's where the prevention medicine

00:33:51.250 --> 00:33:52.710
come. And I was like, you know what? You're absolutely

00:33:52.710 --> 00:33:54.910
right. I mean, it's still that that phrase still

00:33:54.910 --> 00:33:56.569
makes sense. But if we're really kind of digging

00:33:56.569 --> 00:33:58.950
a little deeper and I think this is what has

00:33:58.950 --> 00:34:03.410
to be understood. is, for example, you have this

00:34:03.410 --> 00:34:05.930
revolution, you change the way we do schools,

00:34:06.150 --> 00:34:07.910
you serve real food, you get the soda machines

00:34:07.910 --> 00:34:11.389
out, you put PE programs in, now the nation becomes

00:34:11.389 --> 00:34:16.190
healthy. Yeah, as far as treating disease with

00:34:16.190 --> 00:34:19.909
medication, there will be a loss, but there's

00:34:19.909 --> 00:34:22.150
a great opportunity now for the prevention side.

00:34:22.570 --> 00:34:24.730
The same with supermarkets. Look at all the healthier

00:34:24.730 --> 00:34:27.230
food that's now in local publics and all the

00:34:27.230 --> 00:34:29.869
other places around. And I think with law enforcement,

00:34:30.090 --> 00:34:32.110
you know, rather than looking as like, oh, no,

00:34:32.190 --> 00:34:34.070
we're going to lose this budget. It's like, all

00:34:34.070 --> 00:34:35.889
right, well, then where can we reallocate those

00:34:35.889 --> 00:34:38.309
funds? We don't need to be kicking in doors anymore.

00:34:38.510 --> 00:34:40.170
Well, we still are because we're chasing the

00:34:40.170 --> 00:34:42.309
dealers and the smugglers. But, you know, the

00:34:42.309 --> 00:34:45.130
addicts that were being chased, you know. That's

00:34:45.130 --> 00:34:47.349
gone away. But now we can go into the proactive

00:34:47.349 --> 00:34:49.309
policing, the one that everyone talks about,

00:34:49.349 --> 00:34:51.309
the community policing, interacting with the

00:34:51.309 --> 00:34:53.289
agencies, putting two people in a vehicle rather

00:34:53.289 --> 00:34:55.769
than one, which never made any sense to me. So

00:34:55.769 --> 00:34:58.590
there's absolutely a way of reallocating manpower

00:34:58.590 --> 00:35:03.190
that continues, you know, creating a much healthier,

00:35:03.250 --> 00:35:06.469
safer society rather than looking at it as if,

00:35:06.530 --> 00:35:08.469
well, if the war on drugs fails, then we're going

00:35:08.469 --> 00:35:11.650
to lose all our, you know, whatever bonus stipend.

00:35:11.980 --> 00:35:13.800
Let's allocate that. And it shouldn't be. It's

00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:16.679
just like, OK, we tried reactive. Reactive doesn't

00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:20.880
work. Let's try proactive instead. Yeah. And

00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:26.500
that's part of my story. How many pharmaceuticals

00:35:26.500 --> 00:35:33.480
I was on. Way too many for way too long. And

00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:37.199
I had I really had no idea. It was the doctor

00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:39.460
that medically retired me finally told me, he

00:35:39.460 --> 00:35:42.429
said, bro, if you don't stop like. you need to

00:35:42.429 --> 00:35:45.389
retire. Like you, you might have three to five

00:35:45.389 --> 00:35:48.809
years left. I'm like, Ooh, that hit pretty good.

00:35:48.909 --> 00:35:52.190
That stings. But it wasn't about the meds. It

00:35:52.190 --> 00:35:58.570
was just stopping the job. And yeah, it was disappointing

00:35:58.570 --> 00:36:01.230
to look back and be like, there were so many

00:36:01.230 --> 00:36:06.130
different ways to have handled this thing. But

00:36:06.130 --> 00:36:09.250
I guess it had to be my journey, which is, you

00:36:09.250 --> 00:36:13.460
know, kind of why I came out. In support of this,

00:36:13.699 --> 00:36:17.639
when Kentucky started legalizing it or started

00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:20.559
the discussion of it, the governor actually created

00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:22.760
a commission that would go around to different

00:36:22.760 --> 00:36:26.480
areas in the state and set up an event for anybody

00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:30.099
that wanted to speak. So I went to one of those

00:36:30.099 --> 00:36:33.179
events and it was the first time I'd ever told

00:36:33.179 --> 00:36:38.250
my story in public. And afterwards. one of the

00:36:38.250 --> 00:36:40.250
drug task force officers actually came up and

00:36:40.250 --> 00:36:48.449
shook my hand like thank you because he's you

00:36:48.449 --> 00:36:50.670
see it inside all the time while you're there

00:36:50.670 --> 00:36:53.429
but you don't really get it i i didn't comprehend

00:36:53.429 --> 00:36:55.670
it until i've been out for a while then you're

00:36:55.670 --> 00:36:58.190
looking in on folks and you're looking with a

00:36:58.190 --> 00:37:01.670
different lens now and it's it's uh worrisome

00:37:01.670 --> 00:37:06.519
absolutely Well, before we get to that part of

00:37:06.519 --> 00:37:09.099
your story, let's kind of go to the journey into

00:37:09.099 --> 00:37:11.820
law enforcement. So how did you actually find

00:37:11.820 --> 00:37:14.239
yourself into that side and then kind of walk

00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:20.539
me through the special investigation side? It's

00:37:20.539 --> 00:37:24.139
kind of complicated to get into OSI as an enlisted

00:37:24.139 --> 00:37:28.320
guy. You have to wait a certain time. And then

00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:31.480
I was overseas, so you can't disrupt an overseas

00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:33.840
cycle. So you got to wait until. that cycles

00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:37.980
over. So I knew in around Korea timeframe, I

00:37:37.980 --> 00:37:40.659
wanted to go into OSI, but I had a follow on

00:37:40.659 --> 00:37:45.280
to Italy. So I was on the F -16 program there

00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:49.579
for a few more years. And as I was transitioning

00:37:49.579 --> 00:37:52.860
out, that's when I started the training to go

00:37:52.860 --> 00:37:59.019
into OSI. So left Italy in 05 and then went directly

00:37:59.019 --> 00:38:02.989
to Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. in

00:38:02.989 --> 00:38:06.170
Georgia and then did all that training and then

00:38:06.170 --> 00:38:09.969
stationed in Little Rock, Arkansas for my first

00:38:09.969 --> 00:38:14.349
place. Worked a lot of drug cases back then too.

00:38:14.650 --> 00:38:18.949
It's funny how it comes full circle. You got

00:38:18.949 --> 00:38:22.230
some idiot selling a little nugget of weed on

00:38:22.230 --> 00:38:24.969
base and OSI gets excited like, oh, we've got

00:38:24.969 --> 00:38:30.750
a dealer on base. That's a big deal on the military

00:38:30.750 --> 00:38:33.480
installation. It's interesting because a lot

00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:38.000
of those deals would end up to a cartel buy eventually.

00:38:38.579 --> 00:38:42.219
I knew guys out west that we'd end up with a

00:38:42.219 --> 00:38:46.619
small drug bust on base, and I mean small. Two

00:38:46.619 --> 00:38:50.719
more people up, we're selling meth for machine

00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:54.800
guns down the street. All within a day and a

00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:56.679
half, so you never know where that stuff's going

00:38:56.679 --> 00:39:01.800
to lead. But again, I was always taught. that

00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:04.559
everything was bad and you know these are laws

00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:06.619
you got to follow this stuff's horrible for you

00:39:06.619 --> 00:39:11.099
um but uh we'll get to that in a little bit um

00:39:11.099 --> 00:39:16.480
so first spot was a little rock and uh unfortunately

00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:20.820
most of the cases out there were um sex assaults

00:39:20.820 --> 00:39:24.900
or uh sexual exploitation cases or cyber cases

00:39:24.900 --> 00:39:28.880
um this is against our own military by our military

00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:34.199
No, actually it was a combination. It was OSI

00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:37.760
has jurisdiction over the person, not the crime

00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:41.420
really. So if a military member does something

00:39:41.420 --> 00:39:46.820
in a certain place, I know any OSI entity could

00:39:46.820 --> 00:39:50.280
investigate them, write a report and present

00:39:50.280 --> 00:39:53.380
that to whether it be a military judge, a federal

00:39:53.380 --> 00:40:01.059
judge or local prosecuting authority. So we have

00:40:01.059 --> 00:40:03.460
victims that are civilians. We had victims that

00:40:03.460 --> 00:40:07.539
were military, some with connections in the military,

00:40:07.699 --> 00:40:12.079
some with no connections. But really the key

00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:15.880
was what did the person do? And if they did it,

00:40:15.900 --> 00:40:17.840
then we have jurisdiction over it if it's felony

00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:24.440
level and above. One really good thing I'll say

00:40:24.440 --> 00:40:26.760
about OSI is they're one of the most thorough

00:40:26.760 --> 00:40:31.480
investigative agencies to an annoyance. Like

00:40:31.480 --> 00:40:33.880
even if an investigative step doesn't make sense,

00:40:33.980 --> 00:40:35.940
a lot of times they'll do it just to prevent

00:40:35.940 --> 00:40:38.380
somebody from saying, well, why didn't you do

00:40:38.380 --> 00:40:40.940
this? And that's not just for the law enforcement

00:40:40.940 --> 00:40:42.960
side of things. It's more for the legislative

00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:48.039
side of things. When mom or dad has a situation

00:40:48.039 --> 00:40:49.800
that their child was involved in the military,

00:40:49.860 --> 00:40:51.500
now they're going to be calling their congressman

00:40:51.500 --> 00:40:55.039
saying. Hey, this is this happened and I wanted

00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:58.199
investigated. So then a congressional inquiry

00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:01.000
gets started and all those records have to get

00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:05.059
back. And you have to basically look at, OK,

00:41:05.159 --> 00:41:07.320
what is the craziest question you're ever going

00:41:07.320 --> 00:41:11.039
to get about this case and investigate it? You

00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:13.679
know, a local PD suicide case might be three,

00:41:13.739 --> 00:41:16.579
four pages. Ours might be four to five hundred.

00:41:17.239 --> 00:41:21.449
Oh, wow. Because you're trying to find root causes

00:41:21.449 --> 00:41:26.690
and ways to change processes, support the entire

00:41:26.690 --> 00:41:32.349
process and be as open as you can about it. I've

00:41:32.349 --> 00:41:35.010
had quite a few people on here. Some were victims

00:41:35.010 --> 00:41:38.429
of sexual abuse when they were serving. Others

00:41:38.429 --> 00:41:41.530
were, again, law enforcement side. And this seemed

00:41:41.530 --> 00:41:44.449
to be a kind of running theme. that a lot of

00:41:44.449 --> 00:41:47.070
them were surprised by the prevalence of sexual

00:41:47.070 --> 00:41:49.570
assault in the military. Was that something you

00:41:49.570 --> 00:41:55.230
experienced too? I wouldn't say that was the

00:41:55.230 --> 00:41:57.190
weirdest thing. I would say the manipulation

00:41:57.190 --> 00:42:01.190
of the system was the weirdest thing I saw. And

00:42:01.190 --> 00:42:04.769
not as early on, but as the laws started to change

00:42:04.769 --> 00:42:09.670
and the terminology started to change, things

00:42:09.670 --> 00:42:14.039
became blurred. It almost weaponized part of

00:42:14.039 --> 00:42:18.480
the justice system. And I don't say this just

00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:22.960
for victims, but even people that are defending

00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:25.579
against it have been caught up in this before.

00:42:26.300 --> 00:42:30.159
I've had several cases that were actually disproven

00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:36.139
where somebody created this story to better themselves.

00:42:36.679 --> 00:42:40.019
The Air Force had a program called expedited

00:42:40.019 --> 00:42:44.210
transfer. So if you were sexually assaulted and

00:42:44.210 --> 00:42:48.650
you reported it, the command had 72 hours to

00:42:48.650 --> 00:42:51.210
make a decision whether you were moved or not.

00:42:51.630 --> 00:42:55.889
And I'd never seen one denied, but it didn't

00:42:55.889 --> 00:42:59.329
allow for any investigative steps to be taken,

00:42:59.429 --> 00:43:03.909
really. The investigators weren't involved. And

00:43:03.909 --> 00:43:06.710
I saw that weaponized. We actually had one case

00:43:06.710 --> 00:43:10.869
where somebody came in and said I was. It was

00:43:10.869 --> 00:43:13.110
actually a female on female said, I was raped

00:43:13.110 --> 00:43:17.329
by this girl. We didn't know that a phone call

00:43:17.329 --> 00:43:21.110
took place a couple months prior from her friend

00:43:21.110 --> 00:43:25.610
to the so -called suspect saying, if you don't

00:43:25.610 --> 00:43:27.730
stop telling people that y 'all slept together,

00:43:27.889 --> 00:43:31.030
we're going to claim you raped her. And this

00:43:31.030 --> 00:43:34.050
was a sexual event that actually occurred in

00:43:34.050 --> 00:43:38.349
public in front of other people. But nobody would

00:43:38.349 --> 00:43:43.510
say anything. So the person that was the suspect

00:43:43.510 --> 00:43:47.550
was actually the victim because it was a false

00:43:47.550 --> 00:43:53.010
accusation. And they were so scared to say anything

00:43:53.010 --> 00:43:56.730
that it took five months of investigation to

00:43:56.730 --> 00:44:00.929
open up some of those things. And nothing ever

00:44:00.929 --> 00:44:05.250
happened to the person that lied. So, you know,

00:44:05.269 --> 00:44:07.230
I've seen the worst of the worst, but then I've

00:44:07.230 --> 00:44:12.809
seen. the system manipulated just as much. It's

00:44:12.809 --> 00:44:15.369
disappointing to see. I will say that the federal

00:44:15.369 --> 00:44:18.150
government, every case that I submitted to them

00:44:18.150 --> 00:44:23.050
was prosecuted to absolute perfection. I think

00:44:23.050 --> 00:44:26.469
this is what's so angering about the false outcries

00:44:26.469 --> 00:44:28.909
is it's a spit in the face for everyone who's

00:44:28.909 --> 00:44:32.769
truly assaulted because for every cry wolf example,

00:44:33.050 --> 00:44:36.869
it casts more and more doubt on the real assault.

00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:40.739
Unfortunately, yeah. And it's interesting, though,

00:44:40.780 --> 00:44:45.159
because the military has done so much to support

00:44:45.159 --> 00:44:49.460
any type of victim. Like a sex assault victim

00:44:49.460 --> 00:44:53.019
now gets a counselor, an advocate and a lawyer,

00:44:53.159 --> 00:44:57.239
all three. And they don't ever have to talk to

00:44:57.239 --> 00:44:58.800
an investigator if they really don't want to.

00:45:00.500 --> 00:45:04.360
That hampers things, but. The government or the

00:45:04.360 --> 00:45:07.059
military has bent over backwards to help folks

00:45:07.059 --> 00:45:11.699
in those times of crisis. And to see some of

00:45:11.699 --> 00:45:15.079
those situations where it's abused is very disappointing.

00:45:17.300 --> 00:45:20.980
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's just a societal

00:45:20.980 --> 00:45:23.639
issue. If there's something somebody can take

00:45:23.639 --> 00:45:25.539
advantage of, they're going to at some point.

00:45:26.519 --> 00:45:31.000
I've made this observation a lot recently. What

00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:34.559
I've seen is also the danger is then people focus

00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:39.099
on the abusers to disprove the system. So perfect

00:45:39.099 --> 00:45:42.019
example, you know, we in law enforcement and,

00:45:42.019 --> 00:45:45.619
you know, fire and EMS, we see the abuse of food

00:45:45.619 --> 00:45:47.420
stamps, government housing, etc. But there'll

00:45:47.420 --> 00:45:50.760
be an escalate on the front front driveway and

00:45:50.760 --> 00:45:52.780
then the kids are in rags, barely any food around.

00:45:53.659 --> 00:45:56.800
But so that will be used as an example. This

00:45:56.800 --> 00:45:58.840
is, you know, the welfare abusers and all this

00:45:58.840 --> 00:46:01.000
stuff. But no one ever talks about. the other

00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:04.099
90, 95 % of people that use that to get back

00:46:04.099 --> 00:46:06.659
on their feet. The success stories of, you know,

00:46:06.659 --> 00:46:09.219
welfare, for example. So same with, you know,

00:46:09.219 --> 00:46:14.599
the kind of half -assed attempt to not even decriminalization,

00:46:14.679 --> 00:46:18.019
but not arresting addicts in Seattle and some

00:46:18.019 --> 00:46:20.679
of those places without putting the tools you

00:46:20.679 --> 00:46:22.639
need to start healing people in place at the

00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:25.760
same time. So I feel like sometimes people weaponize

00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:29.119
those bad case examples so they can go see it

00:46:29.119 --> 00:46:32.110
doesn't work. and ignore the massive majority

00:46:32.110 --> 00:46:35.530
where it does work absolutely and that you know

00:46:35.530 --> 00:46:38.769
that's it's hey watch over here what i'm doing

00:46:38.769 --> 00:46:41.230
what's over here you know like oh see that doesn't

00:46:41.230 --> 00:46:43.210
work okay that's one instance right there but

00:46:43.210 --> 00:46:45.610
you don't have any of the support structure it's

00:46:45.610 --> 00:46:48.610
just the sound bites it's the social media you

00:46:48.610 --> 00:46:51.510
know if it's longer than 10 seconds nobody's

00:46:51.510 --> 00:46:55.829
going to pay attention absolutely Well, you said

00:46:55.829 --> 00:46:57.949
that was in Arkansas. So how did you find yourself

00:46:57.949 --> 00:47:03.449
deploying to the Middle East then? Within a couple

00:47:03.449 --> 00:47:05.389
of years, most agents end up going somewhere.

00:47:06.070 --> 00:47:09.210
So I went through the training pipeline and then

00:47:09.210 --> 00:47:12.710
I knew, OK, well, my time's coming up and we

00:47:12.710 --> 00:47:14.650
go through the training classes. And what they

00:47:14.650 --> 00:47:16.690
try to do is everybody trains together, goes

00:47:16.690 --> 00:47:20.570
to a place together. I can't remember really

00:47:20.570 --> 00:47:23.469
how my first one went. I didn't train with too

00:47:23.469 --> 00:47:25.170
many of the folks that I ended up working with.

00:47:25.230 --> 00:47:28.949
I think I was out of cycle for it. There was

00:47:28.949 --> 00:47:31.730
like a middle cycle in there where a few folks

00:47:31.730 --> 00:47:33.590
went to a class and deployed and there were some

00:47:33.590 --> 00:47:37.750
delays. But that's when things started getting

00:47:37.750 --> 00:47:42.349
rough because it was November. I was supposed

00:47:42.349 --> 00:47:47.550
to deploy November 11th, 2007. And I had actually

00:47:47.550 --> 00:47:50.090
been trying to get over there a little bit early

00:47:50.090 --> 00:47:53.690
because. There was just like a 12 -day gap that

00:47:53.690 --> 00:47:56.150
I didn't want to deal with. But because of the

00:47:56.150 --> 00:48:00.389
SOFA agreement, I couldn't get there until the

00:48:00.389 --> 00:48:02.469
two weeks into November because of how many people

00:48:02.469 --> 00:48:06.050
were on the ground already. And unfortunately,

00:48:06.250 --> 00:48:09.889
on November 1st, 2007, the folks where I was

00:48:09.889 --> 00:48:13.250
going to were attacked with a triple -stacked

00:48:13.250 --> 00:48:19.150
anti -tank mine at Balad, Iraq. So Tom, Nate,

00:48:19.150 --> 00:48:21.849
and Dave were all... killed in that event um

00:48:21.849 --> 00:48:25.889
and after that you know you're going through

00:48:25.889 --> 00:48:29.610
a recovery process but everybody's prepping to

00:48:29.610 --> 00:48:33.010
go catch the bad guys too so osi is pretty robust

00:48:33.010 --> 00:48:37.929
they uh bring in a team of ast guys which was

00:48:37.929 --> 00:48:39.829
the anti -terrorism support team kind of like

00:48:39.829 --> 00:48:42.469
a flyaway group guys that are really trained

00:48:42.469 --> 00:48:45.469
to the hilt they can come into any mission and

00:48:45.469 --> 00:48:50.269
jump in with you and start executing it So I

00:48:50.269 --> 00:48:55.570
got there 10 days after the attack. And the commander

00:48:55.570 --> 00:49:02.710
I had, awesome dude. Great guy. To see how he

00:49:02.710 --> 00:49:06.929
was treated after that event was pretty disappointing.

00:49:08.750 --> 00:49:11.369
I think that's where I got a lot of my fire inside

00:49:11.369 --> 00:49:14.090
of, okay, I really don't care what your opinion

00:49:14.090 --> 00:49:15.710
is anymore. We're going to do what we need to

00:49:15.710 --> 00:49:29.219
do, how we need to do it. I'll call them Major

00:49:29.219 --> 00:49:39.360
G. Major G said, by the end of your deployment,

00:49:39.460 --> 00:49:44.880
I expect you to crawl on that plane. And that's

00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:52.809
what I did. It was weird, though, because like

00:49:52.809 --> 00:49:56.809
I had during the missions, it was all go, go,

00:49:56.869 --> 00:50:00.510
go, go, go. There wasn't a single sad thought

00:50:00.510 --> 00:50:03.309
in my mind like it's catch these guys, take them

00:50:03.309 --> 00:50:09.909
out, keep our folks safe. These emotions didn't

00:50:09.909 --> 00:50:17.530
exist back then. So six months goes by, catch

00:50:17.530 --> 00:50:20.679
a lot of them. That's a whole other story. It

00:50:20.679 --> 00:50:25.300
didn't go too well. But within that six months,

00:50:25.460 --> 00:50:28.840
the folks that you met and the folks that you

00:50:28.840 --> 00:50:31.920
went on missions with, that's your family. That's

00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:35.219
the brotherhood. To this day, I call some of

00:50:35.219 --> 00:50:36.599
them up right now and I know they'll answer.

00:50:41.059 --> 00:50:43.559
And at that point, I wasn't on any type of medication.

00:50:45.139 --> 00:50:49.059
But then. The coming back process is weird. The

00:50:49.059 --> 00:50:51.099
Air Force has a program where you go somewhere

00:50:51.099 --> 00:50:54.940
for a few days and then to supposedly relax,

00:50:55.039 --> 00:50:56.860
they make sure you're not going to lose your

00:50:56.860 --> 00:50:59.739
mind or anything. And then you have to be back

00:50:59.739 --> 00:51:03.880
at work for the next two days. So you go from

00:51:03.880 --> 00:51:07.480
a combat environment, three days of relaxation,

00:51:07.860 --> 00:51:12.429
two days in an office stateside. And the only

00:51:12.429 --> 00:51:14.909
really thing anybody's worried about is you sitting

00:51:14.909 --> 00:51:17.110
behind a computer doing computer -based training.

00:51:18.570 --> 00:51:22.070
I mean, literally, it's fire extinguisher safety,

00:51:22.530 --> 00:51:26.630
how not to respond to phishing emails. You go

00:51:26.630 --> 00:51:29.230
from a combat environment to that. So I had 16

00:51:29.230 --> 00:51:31.050
hours of computer -based training. I was ready

00:51:31.050 --> 00:51:34.309
to throw the computer to the wall. Sure. You

00:51:34.309 --> 00:51:36.869
can't do that and then come right back to that.

00:51:36.929 --> 00:51:40.139
It just didn't make sense. So I go on vacation

00:51:40.139 --> 00:51:44.860
a couple of weeks, come back and I'm sitting

00:51:44.860 --> 00:51:48.619
at a conference room table and there's a young

00:51:48.619 --> 00:51:51.519
lady across the table from me talking about something

00:51:51.519 --> 00:51:54.260
that was, you know, in the environment, it was

00:51:54.260 --> 00:51:56.219
the right discussion to have. She wasn't doing

00:51:56.219 --> 00:52:01.340
anything wrong. Nothing derogatory at all, but

00:52:01.340 --> 00:52:06.280
to me, it was so minuscule that I was so angry.

00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:11.480
this has nothing of importance to it. Why are

00:52:11.480 --> 00:52:15.340
we wasting time when we could be out saving lives?

00:52:17.739 --> 00:52:21.739
And I had to get up and walk out. My commander

00:52:21.739 --> 00:52:23.460
then walks out. I said, what's going on? I was

00:52:23.460 --> 00:52:28.420
like, I don't freaking know. And then that's

00:52:28.420 --> 00:52:31.619
when the dope started. It's like, I go to a doc.

00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:35.239
Here's some effects for XR. This will work. And

00:52:35.239 --> 00:52:38.420
it did. It really worked great. Brought everything

00:52:38.420 --> 00:52:41.659
back to normal. I wasn't as angry. I was a little

00:52:41.659 --> 00:52:46.840
bit calmer. But there was a lot of ups and downs.

00:52:47.320 --> 00:52:50.039
So then it started with the clonazepam. And then

00:52:50.039 --> 00:52:53.900
I hurt my back a little bit over there. So then

00:52:53.900 --> 00:52:59.739
I started getting on muscle relaxers. So I'm

00:52:59.739 --> 00:53:02.460
on a ton of stuff. I ended up having to have...

00:53:03.280 --> 00:53:05.800
I had compartment syndrome in both my lower legs.

00:53:05.940 --> 00:53:08.420
So after Iraq, I actually had to have surgery,

00:53:08.619 --> 00:53:14.119
um, departmental release on both. Um, and then,

00:53:14.159 --> 00:53:18.360
you know, that's a pretty big surgery and you're

00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:21.280
supposed to like just barely walk for six months

00:53:21.280 --> 00:53:24.659
with that. Um, but the military wanted me to

00:53:24.659 --> 00:53:31.280
do a PT test after three. So I did it. um made

00:53:31.280 --> 00:53:33.360
it through it because at that time if you didn't

00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:35.880
even if you were on a profile for a medical condition

00:53:35.880 --> 00:53:39.340
if you did not meet this they were going to start

00:53:39.340 --> 00:53:42.280
processing you for separation didn't matter how

00:53:42.280 --> 00:53:45.920
good of a worker or person you were if you were

00:53:45.920 --> 00:53:49.900
on a waiver they were going to separate you so

00:53:49.900 --> 00:53:52.519
looking back i probably should have said the

00:53:52.519 --> 00:53:56.780
heck with it um Because that's eventually what

00:53:56.780 --> 00:53:58.199
I was told. They said, you should never even

00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:00.619
went to Afghanistan in the condition you were.

00:54:02.019 --> 00:54:05.500
Because I deployed to Afghanistan on all those

00:54:05.500 --> 00:54:08.980
medications and more. I mean, so bad that my

00:54:08.980 --> 00:54:11.059
wife's shipping them to me because I can't get

00:54:11.059 --> 00:54:17.159
them overseas. At any rate, man, I did a great

00:54:17.159 --> 00:54:19.139
job. I did what I was supposed to, but I shouldn't

00:54:19.139 --> 00:54:24.360
have been on all that. Absolutely. was that the

00:54:24.360 --> 00:54:27.519
same kind of job description as far as the terrorism

00:54:27.519 --> 00:54:30.679
side when you went to afghanistan as well um

00:54:30.679 --> 00:54:35.760
yeah for the most part uh it was a weird afghanistan

00:54:35.760 --> 00:54:40.820
was a weird gig um especially how i met hunter

00:54:40.820 --> 00:54:45.019
actually stole his bed one night i rolled it

00:54:45.019 --> 00:54:47.619
up like dude i have no place to sleep he's like

00:54:47.619 --> 00:54:50.780
take my bed i'm like you're the commander giving

00:54:50.780 --> 00:54:54.119
your commander giving his bed away Like, dude,

00:54:54.300 --> 00:54:59.079
thank you. But I was part of a, it was actually

00:54:59.079 --> 00:55:01.760
a SOCOM mission out on the border of Pakistan

00:55:01.760 --> 00:55:06.539
in the Khyber Pass. So for folks that are familiar

00:55:06.539 --> 00:55:09.480
with that place, it's a joint coordination center

00:55:09.480 --> 00:55:13.400
in the Khyber border coordination center at FAB

00:55:13.400 --> 00:55:16.199
Torkham. And you can still Google Earth that

00:55:16.199 --> 00:55:20.440
and see right where it's at. So that whole area

00:55:20.440 --> 00:55:24.949
around the gate, Torkham Gate, That was my playground

00:55:24.949 --> 00:55:27.750
for a little while. And the specific mission

00:55:27.750 --> 00:55:30.050
was just protecting the mission that I was on

00:55:30.050 --> 00:55:32.949
and the people that I was with. But there was

00:55:32.949 --> 00:55:36.010
a lot of intricacies back and forth with that

00:55:36.010 --> 00:55:41.150
and a lot of multinational involvement. And most

00:55:41.150 --> 00:55:43.630
people think counterintelligence is all like,

00:55:43.690 --> 00:55:47.409
you know, running through the mountains, searching

00:55:47.409 --> 00:55:49.789
people out. Now, sometimes I could just be having

00:55:49.789 --> 00:55:53.309
tea with a guy on the side of the road. getting

00:55:53.309 --> 00:56:01.250
a little bit of information. So we had a special

00:56:01.250 --> 00:56:03.750
individual that was really important to us. And

00:56:03.750 --> 00:56:07.690
his son was in a car wreck. I think he was about

00:56:07.690 --> 00:56:12.010
six or seven and fractured his pelvis and severed

00:56:12.010 --> 00:56:19.110
his urethra. And the medical care that was available

00:56:19.110 --> 00:56:22.300
then. Could not really take care of the kid.

00:56:23.219 --> 00:56:26.320
The guy even took his kid to Syria and Syria

00:56:26.320 --> 00:56:30.139
couldn't do it. Well, I was able to kind of sneak

00:56:30.139 --> 00:56:32.800
this family on to a certain military installation

00:56:32.800 --> 00:56:38.360
and an army surgeon fixed this kid. And that

00:56:38.360 --> 00:56:41.360
that that process blew my mind because I'm just,

00:56:41.400 --> 00:56:43.460
you know, a guy trying to help somebody like,

00:56:43.539 --> 00:56:45.920
hey, look, you're helping us. Let me help you.

00:56:47.469 --> 00:56:49.210
But the only way he would let it happen is if

00:56:49.210 --> 00:56:53.210
I was in the operating room with the boy. So

00:56:53.210 --> 00:56:57.590
I didn't have time to talk to the surgeon prior

00:56:57.590 --> 00:57:00.369
to him going into another surgery. So he invited

00:57:00.369 --> 00:57:03.550
me into a surgery before and it was an IED victim

00:57:03.550 --> 00:57:06.510
that he's working on. I'm just an information

00:57:06.510 --> 00:57:09.730
gatherer, man. And now I'm in the middle of an

00:57:09.730 --> 00:57:13.449
operating room. So that was pretty intense. And

00:57:13.449 --> 00:57:17.440
then, you know, being there with the kid. um

00:57:17.440 --> 00:57:21.920
to be welcomed into that family because you know

00:57:21.920 --> 00:57:24.539
typically in afghanistan you only deal with like

00:57:24.539 --> 00:57:30.940
the man it's a very hierarchy type process but

00:57:30.940 --> 00:57:35.940
when we saved this little boy he actually brought

00:57:35.940 --> 00:57:39.380
his wife in and we took a picture together so

00:57:39.380 --> 00:57:42.659
to have a picture with the wife there like that's

00:57:42.659 --> 00:57:50.269
unheard of so That's the good stuff. It's funny

00:57:50.269 --> 00:57:52.610
that you tell that story because I always ask

00:57:52.610 --> 00:57:55.989
a two -part question. I'll start with dovetailing

00:57:55.989 --> 00:58:00.690
on what you just said. When we at home get fed

00:58:00.690 --> 00:58:04.550
news, I'm using that term very loosely, about

00:58:04.550 --> 00:58:08.610
the war, the last 20 years at least, it's usually

00:58:08.610 --> 00:58:11.639
completely politicized. all the way one way,

00:58:11.719 --> 00:58:13.340
kill them all, let God sort them out, or it's

00:58:13.340 --> 00:58:15.440
all the other. They're all baby killers. And

00:58:15.440 --> 00:58:17.000
in the middle are our men and women that are

00:58:17.000 --> 00:58:19.260
out there with the flag on the shoulder, protecting

00:58:19.260 --> 00:58:22.039
the people in the indigenous population, the

00:58:22.039 --> 00:58:26.719
people overseas, obviously. And we never hear

00:58:26.719 --> 00:58:31.119
about the atrocities that they do witness, which

00:58:31.119 --> 00:58:33.619
we'll get to in a second. But then more importantly...

00:58:34.030 --> 00:58:36.230
The kindness and compassion, whether it's from

00:58:36.230 --> 00:58:38.690
our own military or whether it is the indigenous

00:58:38.690 --> 00:58:41.429
population. So you've just talked about one beautiful

00:58:41.429 --> 00:58:44.050
example, whether it was Iraq or Afghanistan.

00:58:44.289 --> 00:58:46.570
What are other moments of humanity that you remember?

00:58:48.650 --> 00:58:53.889
I think the first one that really blew my mind

00:58:53.889 --> 00:58:57.710
in Iraq was we were along this canal and we walked

00:58:57.710 --> 00:59:01.070
into this village and the kids got so excited

00:59:01.070 --> 00:59:05.269
and they wanted this. take us to show us their

00:59:05.269 --> 00:59:08.769
animals that they had been raising like the parents

00:59:08.769 --> 00:59:14.510
had turned over the um little bricked off area

00:59:14.510 --> 00:59:16.409
to the kids and the kids were raising animals

00:59:16.409 --> 00:59:19.409
and like i'm in full kit and this kid walks up

00:59:19.409 --> 00:59:23.929
to me with a lamb and just hands it to me like

00:59:23.929 --> 00:59:33.190
it's cool like uh just it's There's so much humanity

00:59:33.190 --> 00:59:37.530
all over the place. You know, every person I

00:59:37.530 --> 00:59:43.710
met that was not extreme, or what's the word,

00:59:43.789 --> 00:59:49.349
had not been exposed to extremism was the most

00:59:49.349 --> 00:59:52.250
kindest person I ever met. I mean, folks with

00:59:52.250 --> 00:59:56.170
nearly absolutely nothing would stop and start

00:59:56.170 --> 01:00:01.599
making us tea. You know, they tell you there's

01:00:01.599 --> 01:00:03.380
two things you don't want to talk about, and

01:00:03.380 --> 01:00:06.199
that's politics and religion. And all they want

01:00:06.199 --> 01:00:10.019
to do is talk about kind of politics and their

01:00:10.019 --> 01:00:16.119
religion. But if they hadn't been exposed to

01:00:16.119 --> 01:00:19.900
a lot of extremism, it was such a simple understanding

01:00:19.900 --> 01:00:23.659
of God and a higher power. Now, whether you call

01:00:23.659 --> 01:00:25.900
that Allah, God, or whatever, Yahweh, it doesn't

01:00:25.900 --> 01:00:29.059
matter. It's a higher power to them. And that

01:00:29.059 --> 01:00:33.920
needs to be respected. But if you meet somebody

01:00:33.920 --> 01:00:40.119
that says, I want you to change to be a Muslim.

01:00:40.219 --> 01:00:42.659
And if you don't, you need to respect our religion.

01:00:43.159 --> 01:00:45.699
Well, that tells me right there that you're the

01:00:45.699 --> 01:00:51.460
extremist in this situation. And that can be,

01:00:51.460 --> 01:00:53.219
you know, just within a few different villages.

01:00:53.260 --> 01:00:58.340
You can get that polar opposite idea. And a lot

01:00:58.340 --> 01:01:02.239
of it has to do with the tribe. You know, people

01:01:02.239 --> 01:01:05.059
don't realize that if you took a picture of Iraq,

01:01:05.219 --> 01:01:09.500
Afghanistan and Cincinnati, Ohio in mid 70s,

01:01:09.500 --> 01:01:11.159
you probably wouldn't have been able to tell

01:01:11.159 --> 01:01:14.380
them apart. Their architecture, their people,

01:01:14.500 --> 01:01:18.599
their clothing, all the same. But then when all

01:01:18.599 --> 01:01:20.760
the extremist ideology started getting pushed

01:01:20.760 --> 01:01:25.039
and the Sharia law and the Iranian influences,

01:01:25.579 --> 01:01:28.679
people forgot. where they came from and they

01:01:28.679 --> 01:01:33.079
allowed this horrendous activity to occur um

01:01:33.079 --> 01:01:36.940
you know one of the other side of things where

01:01:36.940 --> 01:01:38.960
i was telling about that guy bringing his wife

01:01:38.960 --> 01:01:43.519
into the hospital room on the polar opposite

01:01:43.519 --> 01:01:45.860
side of that one of the first guys i talked to

01:01:45.860 --> 01:01:52.380
in iraq were in his living room just started

01:01:52.380 --> 01:01:55.599
talking and his wife walked in and he yelled

01:01:55.599 --> 01:01:59.380
at her told her to get her ass out and said a

01:01:59.380 --> 01:02:02.079
lot of derogatory things about her and basically

01:02:02.079 --> 01:02:04.360
said she belongs in the kitchen, in the ground,

01:02:04.380 --> 01:02:09.460
or producing the children. That was his extreme

01:02:09.460 --> 01:02:13.579
view. Us as military members, we have to utilize

01:02:13.579 --> 01:02:16.380
this individual if they're in a political power

01:02:16.380 --> 01:02:22.599
leader. We can't change their thoughts, so we

01:02:22.599 --> 01:02:26.210
have to be around that and accept it. And I think

01:02:26.210 --> 01:02:29.070
that's why you saw a lot of women making a lot

01:02:29.070 --> 01:02:32.349
of progress in some of those roles. You know,

01:02:32.369 --> 01:02:35.010
there's one side of the fence that says women

01:02:35.010 --> 01:02:37.190
shouldn't be in combat. One side says you should.

01:02:37.730 --> 01:02:41.489
It's up to the person. I had a lot of women on

01:02:41.489 --> 01:02:46.250
my teams and they did great. They met the standards.

01:02:47.289 --> 01:02:49.730
No issues. And they got a lot of information

01:02:49.730 --> 01:02:52.949
out of the ladies in the kitchen. Because when

01:02:52.949 --> 01:02:55.809
old men aren't around, The lady may say something.

01:02:56.110 --> 01:02:58.309
That could be the difference of us getting a

01:02:58.309 --> 01:03:03.309
huge piece of information or not. It's funny

01:03:03.309 --> 01:03:05.289
when you're talking about the extremism and then

01:03:05.289 --> 01:03:07.869
you look at the way, and I'll pick on Christianity

01:03:07.869 --> 01:03:10.150
because that's what I grew up around, the way

01:03:10.150 --> 01:03:12.550
that some of that is pushed on us here in the

01:03:12.550 --> 01:03:16.449
States. I personally believe that it is an individual

01:03:16.449 --> 01:03:19.070
conversation with a higher power, individual,

01:03:19.269 --> 01:03:21.869
that person's relationship with God or whatever

01:03:21.869 --> 01:03:24.230
they want to call it. And I truly think that

01:03:24.230 --> 01:03:28.130
you could take the universal doctrines of all

01:03:28.130 --> 01:03:30.750
these different religions and whittle it down

01:03:30.750 --> 01:03:33.809
to a page that just says, don't be a dick. That's

01:03:33.809 --> 01:03:37.389
it. That's actually our house rule. There we

01:03:37.389 --> 01:03:40.820
go. So, you know, whether you're talking because,

01:03:40.880 --> 01:03:43.800
again, that that kind of chauvinism, you could

01:03:43.800 --> 01:03:46.400
absolutely hear from an American or a British

01:03:46.400 --> 01:03:48.760
and Australian man saying women belong in the

01:03:48.760 --> 01:03:50.860
kitchen or making kids. Go get me a sandwich.

01:03:51.000 --> 01:03:53.719
You know, we've heard that. So that transcends

01:03:53.719 --> 01:03:56.579
cultures as well. The kindness, compassion, you

01:03:56.579 --> 01:04:00.019
know, the humanity and the other side. And, you

01:04:00.019 --> 01:04:03.820
know, hearing, for example, the extremism, one

01:04:03.820 --> 01:04:06.559
of the things I know that's really. created like

01:04:06.559 --> 01:04:08.980
moral injury on a lot of our warfighters is as

01:04:08.980 --> 01:04:10.900
you said when they have to respect the local

01:04:10.900 --> 01:04:14.519
laws and they've seen The abuse of women, the

01:04:14.519 --> 01:04:16.739
abuse of children, you know, the special needs,

01:04:16.780 --> 01:04:19.260
you know, family member that's chained up in

01:04:19.260 --> 01:04:21.380
the backyard and they're not able to intervene.

01:04:21.460 --> 01:04:23.760
And I think, you know, this it's so interesting

01:04:23.760 --> 01:04:26.679
hearing, as I said, the boots on the ground conversation,

01:04:26.940 --> 01:04:29.219
the men and women that were actually there, not

01:04:29.219 --> 01:04:32.900
Fox News, not CNN, not Trump or Biden, but the

01:04:32.900 --> 01:04:35.400
people that we sent over there. And what you

01:04:35.400 --> 01:04:38.699
end up getting is. yeah over there most of the

01:04:38.699 --> 01:04:40.659
people were beautiful people you know the dad

01:04:40.659 --> 01:04:42.260
would be fixing the car and the mum would be

01:04:42.260 --> 01:04:44.519
with the kids or whatever it was and then you've

01:04:44.519 --> 01:04:46.480
got the horrible people just like we have in

01:04:46.480 --> 01:04:50.280
america so when you humanize our air quotes enemy

01:04:50.280 --> 01:04:53.039
all of a sudden you realize that it's not a black

01:04:53.039 --> 01:04:57.199
and white conversation absolutely yeah definitely

01:04:57.199 --> 01:05:04.039
um it really is a you know in those countries

01:05:04.039 --> 01:05:07.010
there's such a huge gap between the people and

01:05:07.010 --> 01:05:11.449
the leaders too um you know humans are a commodity

01:05:11.449 --> 01:05:15.550
in those environments yeah and i think they are

01:05:15.550 --> 01:05:17.590
here it's just it's different absolutely not

01:05:17.590 --> 01:05:20.829
in not as as violent but it's more insidious

01:05:20.829 --> 01:05:24.210
i mean again not if 70 of the population is obese

01:05:24.210 --> 01:05:26.869
how many of them are on drugs how many of them

01:05:26.869 --> 01:05:29.469
buy fast foods and sodas You know what I mean?

01:05:29.489 --> 01:05:33.170
How many in the failed war on drugs are incarcerated

01:05:33.170 --> 01:05:36.730
that are now free labor for industry that's using

01:05:36.730 --> 01:05:39.250
prisoners for their labor? You know, it's the

01:05:39.250 --> 01:05:43.269
same kind of thing, but disguised of democracy.

01:05:44.269 --> 01:05:49.690
Self -licking ice cream cone. Well, so you're

01:05:49.690 --> 01:05:52.070
in Afghanistan, you're on all these, you know,

01:05:52.110 --> 01:05:55.780
psych meds now. Walk me through the transition,

01:05:56.039 --> 01:05:58.300
the homecoming element from that deployment.

01:06:01.780 --> 01:06:06.500
Homecoming was interesting because I didn't drink

01:06:06.500 --> 01:06:08.900
too much while I was over there. Everybody sneaks

01:06:08.900 --> 01:06:12.360
a little bit here and there. But as I got back

01:06:12.360 --> 01:06:15.980
or as I was flying back because of who I was

01:06:15.980 --> 01:06:17.940
and when I was flying, I ended up getting put

01:06:17.940 --> 01:06:20.840
on a Delta flight the last part of the trip.

01:06:23.340 --> 01:06:25.920
You know the stewardess and the pilots they know

01:06:25.920 --> 01:06:28.760
if you're a military guy coming from a Mission

01:06:28.760 --> 01:06:30.940
or something and they take really good carry

01:06:30.940 --> 01:06:33.659
and this plane was half empty. They put me up

01:06:33.659 --> 01:06:38.039
in first class and I mean, I think I still had

01:06:38.039 --> 01:06:41.340
my beard on and I had a big Afghani blanket my

01:06:41.340 --> 01:06:45.300
Afghani hat like I looked like Um, you know some

01:06:45.300 --> 01:06:52.190
dude walking down Kabul Avenue And the stewardess

01:06:52.190 --> 01:06:54.409
just kept bringing me vodka and cranberries.

01:06:55.750 --> 01:06:59.130
And when you haven't drank a whole lot in a year

01:06:59.130 --> 01:07:03.989
and you slam four or five of those, you're pretty

01:07:03.989 --> 01:07:07.510
wasted. I don't remember the flight, but coming

01:07:07.510 --> 01:07:11.130
home, a couple of my buddies who were Little

01:07:11.130 --> 01:07:14.130
Rock cops showed up. And I remember walking to

01:07:14.130 --> 01:07:16.829
them and over the speaker, he said, if you see

01:07:16.829 --> 01:07:19.349
anything suspicious, please notify local law

01:07:19.349 --> 01:07:22.519
enforcement. And I couldn't, they got me and

01:07:22.519 --> 01:07:25.920
one in each arm keeping me up, like, because

01:07:25.920 --> 01:07:29.219
I could barely stand up. My wife and daughter

01:07:29.219 --> 01:07:32.639
there, they were pissed off because I'm shit

01:07:32.639 --> 01:07:35.679
-faced. Like, and I had no comprehension. Like,

01:07:35.719 --> 01:07:38.179
daddy's been gone for a year. Yeah, let's show

01:07:38.179 --> 01:07:47.780
up shit -faced coming home. And, yeah, that was

01:07:47.780 --> 01:07:52.250
not a good. I woke up the next morning laying

01:07:52.250 --> 01:07:55.389
across the bed and looked around and realized

01:07:55.389 --> 01:07:58.309
I was home. And my wife and daughter were in

01:07:58.309 --> 01:08:01.989
the living room asleep on the couch. So I'm like,

01:08:02.030 --> 01:08:06.869
oh, I screwed that up, didn't I? So drinking

01:08:06.869 --> 01:08:14.769
pills just got worse from there. So then right

01:08:14.769 --> 01:08:17.930
after that, we are. like two weeks after i got

01:08:17.930 --> 01:08:20.810
back from afghanistan i got sent to montana and

01:08:20.810 --> 01:08:24.630
i was in as a superintendent of the detachment

01:08:24.630 --> 01:08:28.350
out there so i was in charge of uh operations

01:08:28.350 --> 01:08:30.609
basically for the entire state of montana and

01:08:30.609 --> 01:08:37.630
alberta canada until my retirement so what was

01:08:37.630 --> 01:08:40.449
what was that kind of downward spiral for you

01:08:40.449 --> 01:08:44.470
that was it kind of post um transition or was

01:08:44.470 --> 01:08:47.970
it kind of did it straddle both No, it was definitely

01:08:47.970 --> 01:08:51.949
when I got back from Afghanistan because I still

01:08:51.949 --> 01:08:54.590
had that energy of, you know, we've got to go,

01:08:54.689 --> 01:08:57.670
go, go, go, go. So I'm still working 10, 12 hours

01:08:57.670 --> 01:09:01.250
a day every day minimum. And then there's nights

01:09:01.250 --> 01:09:03.449
where we're not coming home or I'm sleeping on

01:09:03.449 --> 01:09:07.010
the couch at the office. My wife's bringing me

01:09:07.010 --> 01:09:09.550
changed clothes because we got called out on

01:09:09.550 --> 01:09:14.529
a suicide or something. And you only got a handful

01:09:14.529 --> 01:09:17.789
of people to. handle the entire state when something

01:09:17.789 --> 01:09:24.829
pops off everybody's on deck um but you know

01:09:24.829 --> 01:09:26.510
i was still on all those pills and it was just

01:09:26.510 --> 01:09:29.409
continuation i think at the height of it i was

01:09:29.409 --> 01:09:35.850
on 13 or 14. so i was in montana for let's see

01:09:35.850 --> 01:09:38.569
i got back in 11. yeah so i was in montana for

01:09:38.569 --> 01:09:42.810
right about three years and uh the only thing

01:09:42.810 --> 01:09:45.600
that changed was my weight and my liquor intake

01:09:45.600 --> 01:09:54.619
um i when i retired i was 230 pounds so um on

01:09:54.619 --> 01:10:00.220
a cane um there wasn't much that wasn't wrong

01:10:00.220 --> 01:10:06.600
with me back then um and i it's a quick process

01:10:06.600 --> 01:10:08.760
when they medically retire you if everything's

01:10:08.760 --> 01:10:11.489
in the pro in you know correct so it was like

01:10:11.489 --> 01:10:13.729
four four and a half five months later i'm retired

01:10:13.729 --> 01:10:19.630
and uh we went back to arkansas to try to pick

01:10:19.630 --> 01:10:22.210
up where we had left off before because in my

01:10:22.210 --> 01:10:25.529
mind you know i just left a law enforcement entity

01:10:25.529 --> 01:10:27.890
and know a bunch of law enforcement entities

01:10:27.890 --> 01:10:30.609
out there so that's probably what i should go

01:10:30.609 --> 01:10:34.109
back to but i wasn't medically capable of it

01:10:34.109 --> 01:10:41.000
um mentally or physically more both Every time

01:10:41.000 --> 01:10:43.619
I tried to kind of veer back towards it, something

01:10:43.619 --> 01:10:46.220
else always led me away, which I'm glad because

01:10:46.220 --> 01:10:52.739
it got me to where I am today. But it was about

01:10:52.739 --> 01:10:57.659
2015, 2016 when I started getting off the pills

01:10:57.659 --> 01:11:02.220
and booze. Was there like a low point or was

01:11:02.220 --> 01:11:05.140
it just a gradual kind of upswinging from that

01:11:05.140 --> 01:11:10.939
point? You know, I was dealing with a lot more.

01:11:11.039 --> 01:11:15.560
Well, when I came back from Afghanistan, I right

01:11:15.560 --> 01:11:17.859
before I left for Afghanistan, I married my wife

01:11:17.859 --> 01:11:21.500
and she had a 10 year old daughter. So as soon

01:11:21.500 --> 01:11:25.800
as I get back, I start the process to adopt my

01:11:25.800 --> 01:11:30.420
daughter. So now we're family and all that. And

01:11:30.420 --> 01:11:35.409
I didn't comprehend how. certain things would

01:11:35.409 --> 01:11:38.390
affect me after I had a daughter. So before when

01:11:38.390 --> 01:11:40.810
I could go into an interview room and talk to

01:11:40.810 --> 01:11:42.609
a pedophile for three or four days straight,

01:11:42.770 --> 01:11:45.850
not straight, but like, you know, talk to him

01:11:45.850 --> 01:11:47.689
on a Monday, bring him back in, talk to him on

01:11:47.689 --> 01:11:51.489
a Tuesday and get statements from him, be perfectly

01:11:51.489 --> 01:11:54.710
fine. I went from being able to do that to walking

01:11:54.710 --> 01:11:58.229
out and needing to puke almost every time. Because

01:11:58.229 --> 01:12:00.229
there's a process about it and you've got to

01:12:00.229 --> 01:12:01.810
do it the right way if you want to get the right

01:12:01.810 --> 01:12:05.539
information. And it's not like it's on TV. You're

01:12:05.539 --> 01:12:07.500
not an asshole. You're not being mean. You're

01:12:07.500 --> 01:12:11.060
not yelling and screaming. And that takes a lot

01:12:11.060 --> 01:12:14.239
of suppression of emotions, I guess you could

01:12:14.239 --> 01:12:18.060
say. You know, when you're talking to a guy that's

01:12:18.060 --> 01:12:21.119
been talking to 10, 11, 12 -year -old girls and

01:12:21.119 --> 01:12:26.720
he's in his 30s, it's kind of tough to deal with.

01:12:30.990 --> 01:12:34.090
Did I answer that or done it? No, that did, but

01:12:34.090 --> 01:12:36.029
I was talking about the low point. Obviously,

01:12:36.289 --> 01:12:38.449
you had your daughter at that point. Now, obviously,

01:12:38.489 --> 01:12:41.010
it's reframed the job. We hear this all the time,

01:12:41.130 --> 01:12:44.710
police and fire, when we respond to child deaths,

01:12:44.850 --> 01:12:47.529
etc. When you become a parent, it's a whole different

01:12:47.529 --> 01:12:50.770
ballgame then. Absolutely. Now, I'm out of the

01:12:50.770 --> 01:12:54.229
military. The environment's a little different.

01:12:54.470 --> 01:12:57.550
My daughter's going to a public school in Arkansas.

01:12:59.680 --> 01:13:02.060
she's behaving differently and i'm not really

01:13:02.060 --> 01:13:06.199
knowing how to deal with it because i'm i'm a

01:13:06.199 --> 01:13:09.640
newer dad i don't know how to raise a 16 year

01:13:09.640 --> 01:13:16.079
old girl like what you know so um i guess the

01:13:16.079 --> 01:13:19.319
loss of control um not being able to fix anything

01:13:19.319 --> 01:13:24.500
because i was in an environment where when if

01:13:24.500 --> 01:13:28.220
somebody said oh we can't do that. No, that doesn't

01:13:28.220 --> 01:13:31.439
exist. We can do anything with the amount of

01:13:31.439 --> 01:13:33.579
resources that we have. Like there is no limitations.

01:13:34.460 --> 01:13:37.600
So when somebody says, I don't worry about that.

01:13:37.659 --> 01:13:43.239
No, we can do it. Like, um, seeing her go through

01:13:43.239 --> 01:13:47.380
what she went through, started having, um, I

01:13:47.380 --> 01:13:50.800
felt more like this is horrible. Um, you know,

01:13:50.800 --> 01:13:54.460
but part of that was the medications. Um, so

01:13:54.460 --> 01:13:58.420
I remember one night, um something had happened

01:13:58.420 --> 01:14:01.119
and i went out back and i grabbed a pipe and

01:14:01.119 --> 01:14:03.739
i was beating the ever -loving out of a stump

01:14:03.739 --> 01:14:07.319
um my mom told me i used to hammer nails in a

01:14:07.319 --> 01:14:09.819
stump when i got mad at one i was i ended up

01:14:09.819 --> 01:14:12.739
bending this pipe hitting it so hard and then

01:14:12.739 --> 01:14:15.020
i punched the side of the building steel building

01:14:15.020 --> 01:14:20.220
didn't break my hand luckily um but that's when

01:14:20.220 --> 01:14:22.079
i started thinking like this has got to freaking

01:14:22.079 --> 01:14:26.949
change and I went to work the next day and was

01:14:26.949 --> 01:14:30.989
just kind of crappy. And the dude that I was

01:14:30.989 --> 01:14:32.529
working with looked at me, said, dude, you need

01:14:32.529 --> 01:14:35.829
to smoke some weed. I'm like, what? You're out

01:14:35.829 --> 01:14:38.149
of your mind. You're crazy. Like, I'm telling

01:14:38.149 --> 01:14:41.609
you, I ain't been a doctor in 27 years. You can

01:14:41.609 --> 01:14:44.970
stay there being your miserable ass self or you

01:14:44.970 --> 01:14:47.210
can go take a toke. Don't give a fuck about me.

01:14:49.050 --> 01:14:51.649
I'm like, he was just so dismissive of like factual,

01:14:51.689 --> 01:14:53.890
like, look, dumbass, you need to do this and

01:14:53.890 --> 01:14:57.510
chill the hell out. So it was several days before

01:14:57.510 --> 01:14:59.850
I even thought about it again. And then it was

01:14:59.850 --> 01:15:02.970
a low point. But again, I was on these SSRIs

01:15:02.970 --> 01:15:05.529
and I didn't realize how the ups and downs after

01:15:05.529 --> 01:15:07.149
you're on them for a long time would do that.

01:15:09.590 --> 01:15:16.449
So took a puff, man. Within 10 minutes, I was

01:15:16.449 --> 01:15:19.189
like, all right, I don't want to shoot myself

01:15:19.189 --> 01:15:23.060
anymore. Let's get back to work. When I started

01:15:23.060 --> 01:15:24.460
going doing what I was doing and the rest of

01:15:24.460 --> 01:15:26.239
the day I was fine I didn't have a negative thought

01:15:26.239 --> 01:15:31.039
in my head. I wasn't really high per se But I

01:15:31.039 --> 01:15:34.060
was down to a level like Okay, I can function

01:15:34.060 --> 01:15:36.619
I can do this that I can do everything perfectly.

01:15:37.119 --> 01:15:40.720
I'm not Drunk and slobbering like this is cool.

01:15:40.880 --> 01:15:43.920
Like what I did that a few times and I was like

01:15:43.920 --> 01:15:48.500
now I know why it's illegal Because within a

01:15:48.500 --> 01:15:50.760
few weeks, man, I was dropping meds left and

01:15:50.760 --> 01:15:54.119
right and stopping drinking. I'm like, I used

01:15:54.119 --> 01:15:56.819
to drink a half a gallon of Wild Turkey 101 every

01:15:56.819 --> 01:16:02.060
three days and all the meds. And I'm just dropping

01:16:02.060 --> 01:16:04.180
them, dropping, dropping. Don't need this shit

01:16:04.180 --> 01:16:06.760
anymore. Within a couple months, I go to the

01:16:06.760 --> 01:16:10.380
VA. And the doctor that I had at the time had,

01:16:10.500 --> 01:16:13.720
I think, 1 ,200 to 1 ,400 patients that he had

01:16:13.720 --> 01:16:18.600
to see every year. Really cool dude. But, you

01:16:18.600 --> 01:16:20.300
know, as you as soon as you start talking to

01:16:20.300 --> 01:16:22.579
him, he's typing and putting in med refills and

01:16:22.579 --> 01:16:24.680
doing all the worksheets and everything. And

01:16:24.680 --> 01:16:26.359
you've got maybe five or 10 minutes with him

01:16:26.359 --> 01:16:28.840
and he's out. So he's doing all that. And I was

01:16:28.840 --> 01:16:32.100
like, hey, I don't need the meds. And he stops

01:16:32.100 --> 01:16:36.180
and he looks at what? I don't know how to say

01:16:36.180 --> 01:16:37.920
this, but I just smoked a bunch of weed and I'm

01:16:37.920 --> 01:16:43.310
good. And he says. Oh, damn. I wish more of my

01:16:43.310 --> 01:16:44.829
patients would do that shit. And he goes back

01:16:44.829 --> 01:16:49.250
to typing. And I'm like, what? I said, what the

01:16:49.250 --> 01:16:51.630
shit, doc? What the hell do you mean by that?

01:16:51.710 --> 01:16:52.890
He's like, well, we're not allowed to tell you

01:16:52.890 --> 01:16:55.390
that. He's like, look, I'll lose my license.

01:16:56.529 --> 01:16:59.050
I was like, you've got to be kidding me. I said,

01:16:59.170 --> 01:17:02.510
everything I've been told. He's like, yeah, it's

01:17:02.510 --> 01:17:06.510
bullshit. And then I started opening my mind

01:17:06.510 --> 01:17:09.390
and started reading and started seeing all the

01:17:09.390 --> 01:17:13.859
interconnections. The biggest problem I had was

01:17:13.859 --> 01:17:18.079
the effector. And that's where the psilocybin

01:17:18.079 --> 01:17:21.500
mushrooms really came in handy. I had a coach

01:17:21.500 --> 01:17:26.340
that I worked through with that. And it was nothing

01:17:26.340 --> 01:17:30.100
like I was ever told. It was nothing like I ever

01:17:30.100 --> 01:17:34.819
even assumed because of how it was used and how

01:17:34.819 --> 01:17:36.920
it was presented and what I was going through

01:17:36.920 --> 01:17:40.659
at the time. Which going back to the research

01:17:40.659 --> 01:17:43.539
of what these medications do to you, Effexor

01:17:43.539 --> 01:17:46.979
XR sits on the same receptors in your brain that

01:17:46.979 --> 01:17:52.319
the psilocybin tries to work on. And the withdrawals

01:17:52.319 --> 01:17:55.920
from the Effexor XR were so bad that it didn't

01:17:55.920 --> 01:18:00.479
allow the psilocybin to truly give the, I guess

01:18:00.479 --> 01:18:03.659
what you call the psychedelic effect, but it

01:18:03.659 --> 01:18:07.229
took away all the side effects. brought things

01:18:07.229 --> 01:18:10.909
back to a normal level so instead of what some

01:18:10.909 --> 01:18:15.270
people call a trip it was just normalcy and that

01:18:15.270 --> 01:18:18.069
blew my mind too i was like again this is why

01:18:18.069 --> 01:18:23.149
it's illegal because it works but you know i'm

01:18:23.149 --> 01:18:25.050
not just trying these things willy -nilly i'm

01:18:25.050 --> 01:18:27.109
talking to folks that have years in the profession

01:18:27.109 --> 01:18:30.590
and have helped numerous people overcome addiction

01:18:30.590 --> 01:18:34.289
and issues in their life um traumatic events

01:18:34.289 --> 01:18:40.439
and Up until then, this is a society that doesn't

01:18:40.439 --> 01:18:45.340
speak out loud because they're targeted. It's

01:18:45.340 --> 01:18:47.140
like, oh, OK, you guys aren't the bad guys. You're

01:18:47.140 --> 01:18:53.239
the healers. Cool. How did you make that shift?

01:18:53.319 --> 01:18:56.539
As I alluded to earlier, your community is such

01:18:56.539 --> 01:18:59.880
an important voice when it comes to. What we're

01:18:59.880 --> 01:19:02.180
seeing now as far as the therapeutic elements

01:19:02.180 --> 01:19:04.899
of, you know, ayahuasca, whether it's psilocybin

01:19:04.899 --> 01:19:08.539
or 5 -amil DMT or MDMA that we're seeing having

01:19:08.539 --> 01:19:11.539
incredible results. But these are the drugs that

01:19:11.539 --> 01:19:15.100
if you watch the 90s cops television show that

01:19:15.100 --> 01:19:17.100
we would, you know, we they were chasing people

01:19:17.100 --> 01:19:19.300
down for a bag of weed, you know, a mushroom,

01:19:19.460 --> 01:19:21.779
whatever it was, and hooking them up after it.

01:19:22.060 --> 01:19:25.079
Five mile car chase. So how were you able to

01:19:25.079 --> 01:19:27.699
make that shift from I have been told that these

01:19:27.699 --> 01:19:30.819
are bad. I have had to enforce these laws to

01:19:30.819 --> 01:19:34.159
questioning the very origin of that law in the

01:19:34.159 --> 01:19:37.439
first place. Well, you know, like I said, I was

01:19:37.439 --> 01:19:40.619
always looking for the root cause or trying to

01:19:40.619 --> 01:19:43.960
find how this began because I was trying to educate

01:19:43.960 --> 01:19:46.380
people what I went through. But I needed to have

01:19:46.380 --> 01:19:49.920
factual data to put along with it, in my opinion,

01:19:50.000 --> 01:19:53.390
because. If I took a case to a federal prosecutor

01:19:53.390 --> 01:19:57.090
and I didn't have, you know, evidence and facts

01:19:57.090 --> 01:19:58.770
and data to back all that up, they were going

01:19:58.770 --> 01:20:00.529
to laugh at me. I figured if I'm going to talk

01:20:00.529 --> 01:20:02.729
to these legislators, I need this information

01:20:02.729 --> 01:20:07.489
to back this up. So I started researching it

01:20:07.489 --> 01:20:11.970
and what I found just kind of blew my mind. Starting

01:20:11.970 --> 01:20:15.770
all the way back into the 30s, Mayor LaGuardia.

01:20:16.799 --> 01:20:19.579
created a committee to figure out what was going

01:20:19.579 --> 01:20:24.699
on with cannabis after Anslinger's created the

01:20:24.699 --> 01:20:30.659
Marijuana Tax Act of 1937. So that whole research

01:20:30.659 --> 01:20:32.539
said, yeah, there's nothing wrong with cannabis.

01:20:32.739 --> 01:20:36.159
I'm paraphrasing. There's none of these issues

01:20:36.159 --> 01:20:38.819
that you've presented as to why it's now prohibitive

01:20:38.819 --> 01:20:41.420
exist. Like it's all been debunked. It's garbage.

01:20:42.569 --> 01:20:46.569
But that lasted until I think 69 until the case

01:20:46.569 --> 01:20:51.109
was Marijuana Tax Act of 37 was ruled unconstitutional.

01:20:51.470 --> 01:20:53.569
But then that's when the controlled substances

01:20:53.569 --> 01:20:57.229
list started in the 1970s. And what most people

01:20:57.229 --> 01:20:59.390
don't know is that there was another commission

01:20:59.390 --> 01:21:02.810
on top of that under Nixon. The Schaefer Commission

01:21:02.810 --> 01:21:08.569
had 76 members and it was to identify the issues

01:21:08.569 --> 01:21:12.609
with cannabis. 3 ,700 pages, and they come out

01:21:12.609 --> 01:21:14.930
and basically say, yep, everything's been debunked.

01:21:14.930 --> 01:21:17.510
There's no issues. It shouldn't be on a scheduled

01:21:17.510 --> 01:21:21.970
list at all. And Nixon's mad and says, nope,

01:21:22.029 --> 01:21:24.829
we're going to do it anyway. And he talks a little

01:21:24.829 --> 01:21:27.010
trash about the Jews. He even calls, he's like,

01:21:27.050 --> 01:21:30.010
those bastards are trying to legalize it. What

01:21:30.010 --> 01:21:32.090
in the Christ are they thinking? That's a quote

01:21:32.090 --> 01:21:35.109
from Nixon from the 70s. You're like, you're

01:21:35.109 --> 01:21:37.630
not fighting fact with fact. You're fighting

01:21:37.630 --> 01:21:44.840
this. I saw that there's no reason other than

01:21:44.840 --> 01:21:48.579
a political gain and a monetary gain that any

01:21:48.579 --> 01:21:51.220
of this stuff was illegal. You know, the racial

01:21:51.220 --> 01:21:53.119
issues, the control of the people, of course,

01:21:53.140 --> 01:21:55.659
all that. But ultimately, it's money and power.

01:21:56.760 --> 01:22:00.979
And it still is. You know, the big fight now

01:22:00.979 --> 01:22:04.279
is taking marijuana from Schedule 1 to Schedule

01:22:04.279 --> 01:22:07.199
3 so that they can do a bunch of research and

01:22:07.199 --> 01:22:10.470
it actually has a medicinal use. But I see that

01:22:10.470 --> 01:22:12.729
as a double edged sword. As soon as you make

01:22:12.729 --> 01:22:14.789
it a schedule three, now big pharma is going

01:22:14.789 --> 01:22:17.210
to capitalize on it, manipulate it, do whatever

01:22:17.210 --> 01:22:19.329
they want. And now they're going to charge you

01:22:19.329 --> 01:22:21.010
an arm and a leg for something that you could

01:22:21.010 --> 01:22:22.909
literally grow in your backyard for five bucks.

01:22:24.069 --> 01:22:29.869
You know, so it's that hypocrisy that still boggles

01:22:29.869 --> 01:22:33.229
my mind. But going from, you know, having to

01:22:33.229 --> 01:22:36.329
enforce these laws and standards to seeing now

01:22:36.329 --> 01:22:38.050
like, OK, there's nothing wrong with this at

01:22:38.050 --> 01:22:40.850
all. When used in the right, anything can be

01:22:40.850 --> 01:22:44.210
abused, but when used in the right way, this

01:22:44.210 --> 01:22:47.489
is going to be fine. We need to get back to some

01:22:47.489 --> 01:22:50.130
personal responsibility instead of letting some

01:22:50.130 --> 01:22:54.590
scientist or politician behind the desk make

01:22:54.590 --> 01:22:57.869
the calls for us. We were told to trust the science

01:22:57.869 --> 01:23:00.489
with the COVID vaccine, which ended up being

01:23:00.489 --> 01:23:03.149
a flip of the coin. We were told to trust the

01:23:03.149 --> 01:23:05.710
FDA when they put OxyContin out into the world.

01:23:06.000 --> 01:23:08.119
And Kentucky is one of the states that's struggling

01:23:08.119 --> 01:23:10.840
with opioid addiction to this day. We were told

01:23:10.840 --> 01:23:14.600
to trust the FDA, but they then refused to allow

01:23:14.600 --> 01:23:19.460
MDMA led therapy recently. So these people that

01:23:19.460 --> 01:23:21.520
we were told to trust over and over again have

01:23:21.520 --> 01:23:24.659
shown us that they're not trustworthy. Absolutely.

01:23:24.760 --> 01:23:27.800
And, you know, that's that is why there are so

01:23:27.800 --> 01:23:31.119
many nonprofits and good organizations out there

01:23:31.119 --> 01:23:38.550
doing the work that the VA. Can't or won't. You

01:23:38.550 --> 01:23:40.630
know, there are in the last few years have been

01:23:40.630 --> 01:23:42.750
a lot of changes. You know, the ketamine treatments

01:23:42.750 --> 01:23:47.149
that I've seen locally, that's impressive. But

01:23:47.149 --> 01:23:52.289
they still got a long way to go. The nonprofits

01:23:52.289 --> 01:23:55.409
that I've seen, most of or a lot of them, you

01:23:55.409 --> 01:23:56.890
know, you got to be careful. There's always somebody

01:23:56.890 --> 01:23:59.149
trying to make a buck and just take advantage

01:23:59.149 --> 01:24:03.670
of folks. I understand that the MDA. um therapy

01:24:03.670 --> 01:24:06.609
issue was actually part of some of the research

01:24:06.609 --> 01:24:09.329
that was going on one of the providers in that

01:24:09.329 --> 01:24:12.909
ended up having a uh i think a relationship with

01:24:12.909 --> 01:24:17.569
one of the um people that were involved in the

01:24:17.569 --> 01:24:19.590
study so that kind of skewed some of the numbers

01:24:19.590 --> 01:24:23.810
because you know with any of these natural medications

01:24:23.810 --> 01:24:27.789
they can be euphoric and just the fact that you're

01:24:27.789 --> 01:24:31.170
going from such a a traumatic state to something

01:24:31.170 --> 01:24:35.000
better Whenever you're with somebody experiencing

01:24:35.000 --> 01:24:38.840
that, it can be emotional and you don't want

01:24:38.840 --> 01:24:41.500
somebody to take advantage of that. Whether male

01:24:41.500 --> 01:24:45.899
or female, I've seen both happen. So it is not

01:24:45.899 --> 01:24:48.880
just a male on female issue. It's all the way

01:24:48.880 --> 01:24:52.539
around. Absolutely. Well, expanding on that,

01:24:52.699 --> 01:24:55.079
I've told this story many times on here, but

01:24:55.079 --> 01:24:57.720
it needs to be told to preface this whole concept.

01:24:58.680 --> 01:25:01.979
As I mentioned, my brother and mother moved out

01:25:01.979 --> 01:25:05.640
to Portugal about 25 years ago. And when I started

01:25:05.640 --> 01:25:09.000
this podcast a year or so in, my mom said, did

01:25:09.000 --> 01:25:11.079
you know what they did about drug prohibition

01:25:11.079 --> 01:25:13.979
in Portugal? I was like, no. And she said they

01:25:13.979 --> 01:25:16.859
had a horrendous addiction problem here. One

01:25:16.859 --> 01:25:19.039
of the worst. And I say this every time. I got

01:25:19.039 --> 01:25:21.119
to look it up one day. Either Europe or the world.

01:25:21.199 --> 01:25:23.800
One of the two. But even if it's just Europe,

01:25:23.880 --> 01:25:30.000
that's huge. Portugal is a very truly democratic

01:25:30.000 --> 01:25:33.199
country. They actually listen to their people.

01:25:33.439 --> 01:25:35.399
And what they did is like, look, we've tried

01:25:35.399 --> 01:25:38.380
this American war on drugs model. It is not working.

01:25:38.579 --> 01:25:40.960
So we are considering trying something different.

01:25:41.060 --> 01:25:43.520
And I sat down with the guy who spearheaded this,

01:25:43.579 --> 01:25:47.340
Zhao Gulao, when I was in Lisbon. And they said,

01:25:47.380 --> 01:25:48.699
what we're going to do is we're going to treat

01:25:48.699 --> 01:25:52.060
addicts with the medical community, not the law

01:25:52.060 --> 01:25:55.909
enforcement community. they put the money and

01:25:55.909 --> 01:25:57.890
this is the important thing they took the money

01:25:57.890 --> 01:26:00.430
from the war on drugs some of it and they put

01:26:00.430 --> 01:26:03.609
it into addiction counseling mental health counseling

01:26:03.609 --> 01:26:07.529
job creation housing and their whole thing was

01:26:07.529 --> 01:26:09.810
let's help that these people deal with whatever

01:26:09.810 --> 01:26:12.010
it is that they're trying to fill the void with

01:26:12.010 --> 01:26:15.649
drugs and in less than 10 years they went from

01:26:15.649 --> 01:26:19.250
the worst addiction to the lowest in europe eight

01:26:19.250 --> 01:26:23.720
years it was so When I kind of heard this, and

01:26:23.720 --> 01:26:27.220
obviously you've got decriminalization and you've

01:26:27.220 --> 01:26:30.239
got legalization, but in that model, what they

01:26:30.239 --> 01:26:32.239
do is if you are caught with a user's amount,

01:26:32.439 --> 01:26:34.680
like in cops, instead of being chased around

01:26:34.680 --> 01:26:37.520
and televised, you are brought into an interview.

01:26:37.600 --> 01:26:40.159
It's not even an arrest. And you're basically

01:26:40.159 --> 01:26:42.439
educated on all the resources that are available

01:26:42.439 --> 01:26:44.699
to you. Now you've got these people that were

01:26:44.699 --> 01:26:46.640
in the shadows, that were in the clutch of the

01:26:46.640 --> 01:26:48.779
underworld, that are now told, look, you're not

01:26:48.779 --> 01:26:51.829
going to have... you know, an arrest record.

01:26:52.510 --> 01:26:54.529
And we're going to give you the resources that

01:26:54.529 --> 01:26:56.930
you need. And so most people do want to get better.

01:26:57.130 --> 01:26:59.750
So when that stigma and that fear of arrest is

01:26:59.750 --> 01:27:02.810
taken away, most of them came out and said, put

01:27:02.810 --> 01:27:04.350
their hand up and said, yeah, I do want help

01:27:04.350 --> 01:27:06.819
with this. And you have, again, as we alluded

01:27:06.819 --> 01:27:09.500
to earlier, that small group that sadly are still

01:27:09.500 --> 01:27:11.539
addicted to this day. But even them, they've

01:27:11.539 --> 01:27:14.340
got safe injection sites and clinics where they'll

01:27:14.340 --> 01:27:17.199
take their opioid, they'll be watched until they

01:27:17.199 --> 01:27:19.180
know it's safe, and then they go about their

01:27:19.180 --> 01:27:23.880
day. But hearing that, we've sat down with Zhao

01:27:23.880 --> 01:27:26.659
twice, and then so many other people that are

01:27:26.659 --> 01:27:28.760
kind of from your community that are leaning

01:27:28.760 --> 01:27:32.550
into the same thing. Understanding that the prohibition

01:27:32.550 --> 01:27:34.850
of drugs came on the back end of the failure

01:27:34.850 --> 01:27:37.970
of the prohibition of alcohol and became job

01:27:37.970 --> 01:27:41.050
justification and basically racism through Harry

01:27:41.050 --> 01:27:44.510
Anslinger, in my opinion, having pulled yellow

01:27:44.510 --> 01:27:47.329
sheets over so many victims of this addiction

01:27:47.329 --> 01:27:52.550
crisis, I feel like the answer is to follow Portugal

01:27:52.550 --> 01:27:55.649
and some of these other countries. stop arresting

01:27:55.649 --> 01:27:58.329
addicts, give them all the resources that we

01:27:58.329 --> 01:28:01.130
can to heal them, which in turn frees up law

01:28:01.130 --> 01:28:04.590
enforcement and the court system to actually

01:28:04.590 --> 01:28:07.430
come down with an iron fist on the dealers and

01:28:07.430 --> 01:28:10.369
the smugglers. But that's my perspective. So

01:28:10.369 --> 01:28:13.189
I'm going to give you the microphone now. It's

01:28:13.189 --> 01:28:17.149
not wrong. It's a great perspective. And some

01:28:17.149 --> 01:28:19.409
of what you said is actually putting the practice

01:28:19.409 --> 01:28:23.300
here in Kentucky to some level. It's kind of

01:28:23.300 --> 01:28:26.039
disappointing to see how it works. But in theory,

01:28:26.180 --> 01:28:31.399
we have that. But with some caveats, they only

01:28:31.399 --> 01:28:34.840
accept. So I ran the Northern Kentucky Veterans

01:28:34.840 --> 01:28:37.920
Treatment Court for about almost two years before

01:28:37.920 --> 01:28:45.020
I was just done with it. But it was a post conviction

01:28:45.020 --> 01:28:52.489
court that could wipe off the crime. If you completed

01:28:52.489 --> 01:28:57.310
it all the way. Because Kentucky lawmakers didn't

01:28:57.310 --> 01:29:00.029
want to put the money into somebody unless they

01:29:00.029 --> 01:29:03.550
had something to hang over their head. So they

01:29:03.550 --> 01:29:05.789
want that conviction, say, if you don't do this,

01:29:05.850 --> 01:29:09.750
you're going to go to prison. But an addict doesn't

01:29:09.750 --> 01:29:13.789
give a shit. I'll get fed and clothed in there

01:29:13.789 --> 01:29:17.909
and I can still get dope like it's OK. But the

01:29:17.909 --> 01:29:20.869
process that we had, I could do all of that.

01:29:21.260 --> 01:29:26.180
The difficult thing was the resources. So I had

01:29:26.180 --> 01:29:31.260
to rely on the VA. There was what they call a

01:29:31.260 --> 01:29:36.140
wrap provider, wraparound services. So I would

01:29:36.140 --> 01:29:37.960
call these people up and they could get them

01:29:37.960 --> 01:29:40.739
a job. They could get them clothing. They could

01:29:40.739 --> 01:29:46.920
get, you know, training on certain aspects. The

01:29:46.920 --> 01:29:49.119
resources were there to give out for the most

01:29:49.119 --> 01:29:55.779
part. But then like housing, it was easy to get

01:29:55.779 --> 01:29:59.239
a homeless veteran housing. What was difficult

01:29:59.239 --> 01:30:01.479
is get them to not do the drugs in the housing

01:30:01.479 --> 01:30:03.439
so that they didn't get kicked out of the housing.

01:30:05.840 --> 01:30:10.760
But if I needed certain things here and there

01:30:10.760 --> 01:30:13.579
for these folks, there were a lot of difficult

01:30:13.579 --> 01:30:18.739
things. A lot of times it had to deal with medical

01:30:18.739 --> 01:30:20.760
insurance. Okay, well, your insurance is only

01:30:20.760 --> 01:30:22.779
good. You're on Medicaid. You only get 90 days

01:30:22.779 --> 01:30:26.060
in this treatment facility. Well, this facility

01:30:26.060 --> 01:30:28.819
doesn't take TRICARE West or TRICARE East or

01:30:28.819 --> 01:30:32.319
whatever, so you can't go there. But somebody

01:30:32.319 --> 01:30:35.680
right off the street could, but a veteran can't

01:30:35.680 --> 01:30:39.260
because they've got Medicaid or TRICARE. So you

01:30:39.260 --> 01:30:42.699
just want to send them to the VA. Well, in my

01:30:42.699 --> 01:30:46.569
opinion, the VA treats a lot of... things the

01:30:46.569 --> 01:30:51.109
same exact way so you got ptsd from a sexual

01:30:51.109 --> 01:30:53.750
assault it's treated this way well you get ptsd

01:30:53.750 --> 01:30:58.250
from warts treated the exact same way well you

01:30:58.250 --> 01:31:02.050
can't treat those two people the same they're

01:31:02.050 --> 01:31:06.930
not going to respond the same um and that's what

01:31:06.930 --> 01:31:09.949
the system does it's not as tailored as it should

01:31:09.949 --> 01:31:14.289
be um so you know from my experience a lot of

01:31:14.289 --> 01:31:18.270
the non -profit veteran specific recovery and

01:31:18.270 --> 01:31:21.149
rehabilitation programs that have a dual diagnosis,

01:31:21.250 --> 01:31:23.069
you know, whether it be substance abuse and mental

01:31:23.069 --> 01:31:26.449
health conditions that are outside of, I mean,

01:31:26.470 --> 01:31:28.770
it's still a clinical setting, but it's for veterans,

01:31:28.890 --> 01:31:31.529
um, that have come, you know, a lot of them are

01:31:31.529 --> 01:31:35.550
vets and first responders, um, because it's so

01:31:35.550 --> 01:31:38.869
similar in a lot of ways. I think first responders

01:31:38.869 --> 01:31:42.170
are more traumatized on a regular than, um, military

01:31:42.170 --> 01:31:46.460
folks because you do it every day. Like military

01:31:46.460 --> 01:31:49.560
folks really only do it when they deploy. You

01:31:49.560 --> 01:31:51.420
know, there's some hard times other places, but

01:31:51.420 --> 01:31:55.060
it's not every single day like law enforcement

01:31:55.060 --> 01:32:01.529
or firefighting. Yeah, absolutely. And even with

01:32:01.529 --> 01:32:04.609
that wraparound thing, I had a guy on Rob Banghart,

01:32:04.770 --> 01:32:11.149
who was a homeless addict, and he lived, and

01:32:11.149 --> 01:32:13.250
I didn't even know this exists, underneath Las

01:32:13.250 --> 01:32:17.270
Vegas is an entire network of sewers. And there

01:32:17.270 --> 01:32:20.890
is a huge homeless population that lives under

01:32:20.890 --> 01:32:24.220
there. And Rob ended up, again, through finding

01:32:24.220 --> 01:32:26.520
the right kind of people, through counseling

01:32:26.520 --> 01:32:29.119
and everything, ended up getting clean. And now

01:32:29.119 --> 01:32:32.260
he spearheads a nonprofit. That's exactly what

01:32:32.260 --> 01:32:33.920
you're talking about. Not just getting someone

01:32:33.920 --> 01:32:37.140
clean, but looking at the housing, the job creation,

01:32:37.399 --> 01:32:39.819
building the community, all the things that will

01:32:39.819 --> 01:32:42.760
empower someone. You know, their environment

01:32:42.760 --> 01:32:45.100
encourages them to thrive rather than fall into

01:32:45.100 --> 01:32:46.859
addiction. But like you said, I mean, prison,

01:32:47.079 --> 01:32:50.010
perfect example. I've had so many people from

01:32:50.010 --> 01:32:51.909
the correction side, from the prisoners themselves

01:32:51.909 --> 01:32:54.289
that have all said, Oh shit. Yeah. I can get

01:32:54.289 --> 01:32:57.109
drugs so much easier in prison than I could out

01:32:57.109 --> 01:32:59.789
of prison. So we're sending these addicts to

01:32:59.789 --> 01:33:02.369
prison who are then, you know, ultimately getting

01:33:02.369 --> 01:33:04.789
deeper into addiction because you've taken their

01:33:04.789 --> 01:33:06.890
freedom from him. You've taken their community

01:33:06.890 --> 01:33:09.609
and they still have access to drugs, but now

01:33:09.609 --> 01:33:12.289
those drugs are also currency from predators

01:33:12.289 --> 01:33:14.289
as well. So there you've got even more trauma.

01:33:14.869 --> 01:33:19.800
Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's nonstop. Like it just

01:33:19.800 --> 01:33:22.300
continues and continues and continues. And I've

01:33:22.300 --> 01:33:25.319
seen a lot of good folks make it through the

01:33:25.319 --> 01:33:29.460
rehabilitation processes through the court systems.

01:33:30.939 --> 01:33:33.720
It's really a mind over matter thing. You know,

01:33:33.720 --> 01:33:36.880
I had folks, you could see both the opposite

01:33:36.880 --> 01:33:38.920
ends of the spectrum, right? You could have a

01:33:38.920 --> 01:33:41.380
retiree that would come in that wasn't very respectful.

01:33:41.739 --> 01:33:44.020
You could have somebody that did two years, never

01:33:44.020 --> 01:33:47.090
deployed, that was absolutely respectful. You're

01:33:47.090 --> 01:33:48.689
like, well, that should be opposite, shouldn't

01:33:48.689 --> 01:33:51.390
you? So with the Veterans Treatment Court, it

01:33:51.390 --> 01:33:54.789
really allowed folks to, you know, have that

01:33:54.789 --> 01:33:58.029
tribe. Like I'd say, yes, sir. No, sir. Yes,

01:33:58.109 --> 01:34:02.369
ma 'am. No, ma 'am. You would talk about your

01:34:02.369 --> 01:34:07.789
service very direct, but it was there was a level

01:34:07.789 --> 01:34:10.430
of respect amongst each other. Like, hey, look,

01:34:10.510 --> 01:34:11.770
you're part of this program. We want to help

01:34:11.770 --> 01:34:14.689
you. It's not we're not going to do the work

01:34:14.689 --> 01:34:19.619
for you. But it's an opportunity. I think one

01:34:19.619 --> 01:34:21.880
of the biggest things I did with the court program

01:34:21.880 --> 01:34:26.819
is we had a guy that came in and he told a judge,

01:34:26.960 --> 01:34:28.920
he's like, I'm sorry. I think he had gotten a

01:34:28.920 --> 01:34:32.600
DUI and it was very minor, but he wouldn't talk

01:34:32.600 --> 01:34:36.859
to him. And the judge was kind of odd or kind

01:34:36.859 --> 01:34:39.000
of piqued his interest. He says, well, what's

01:34:39.000 --> 01:34:40.720
going on? He's like, well, it's classified. I

01:34:40.720 --> 01:34:44.600
can't talk to you about it. So they sent him

01:34:44.600 --> 01:34:47.520
to the mental health court because they thought

01:34:47.520 --> 01:34:50.819
he was crazy. And he talks to the judge at the

01:34:50.819 --> 01:34:52.659
mental health court. I'm sorry, ma 'am. I cannot

01:34:52.659 --> 01:34:55.500
talk to you about this. It's it's classified.

01:34:55.819 --> 01:34:58.720
I signed paper stating that I cannot talk about

01:34:58.720 --> 01:35:01.640
this. So they're like, well, Jared's military.

01:35:01.819 --> 01:35:05.119
Let's go talk to him. So this kid comes into

01:35:05.119 --> 01:35:07.340
my office and I say, kid, he's probably mid late

01:35:07.340 --> 01:35:11.939
20s or something. And he's visibly shaken. He's

01:35:11.939 --> 01:35:16.199
nervous. I was like, what's going on? He's like,

01:35:16.319 --> 01:35:19.319
I don't know what I'm allowed to say. Like, I

01:35:19.319 --> 01:35:21.520
know I've got these issues and I did this, but

01:35:21.520 --> 01:35:25.319
they want me to talk about this. And to me, it

01:35:25.319 --> 01:35:28.180
was like God playing chess. Like, okay, you need

01:35:28.180 --> 01:35:29.840
to talk to this dude and tell him what's up.

01:35:30.140 --> 01:35:32.840
Because I said, well, where'd you go? And he

01:35:32.840 --> 01:35:35.880
tells me and I said, what unit number? And he

01:35:35.880 --> 01:35:38.439
tells me, I'm like, oh, you're with these guys

01:35:38.439 --> 01:35:41.680
doing this, this and this. He's like, how did

01:35:41.680 --> 01:35:45.760
you know that? Like, yeah, I was with them, man.

01:35:45.779 --> 01:35:48.979
Like I was, I know about them boys. Like I went

01:35:48.979 --> 01:35:50.800
on missions with them. Like, it's cool. Like,

01:35:50.840 --> 01:35:53.220
all you got to do is take out this piece of information

01:35:53.220 --> 01:35:56.819
and it's no longer classified. I said, go talk

01:35:56.819 --> 01:35:59.479
to the therapist. He's like, that's it? Like

01:35:59.479 --> 01:36:02.699
instant relief on this dude, right? So he goes

01:36:02.699 --> 01:36:04.800
back to the court and he says, I got it. I'll

01:36:04.800 --> 01:36:06.640
handle it. If I go through all this process,

01:36:06.840 --> 01:36:08.680
will you throw it out? The judge is like, absolutely.

01:36:10.619 --> 01:36:13.750
One conversation, man. from somebody that actually

01:36:13.750 --> 01:36:16.289
knew what the la were talking about like but

01:36:16.289 --> 01:36:19.409
how many people really truly understand uh like

01:36:19.409 --> 01:36:21.689
original classification authority with classified

01:36:21.689 --> 01:36:24.369
documents they just know that if i sign this

01:36:24.369 --> 01:36:26.789
document saying if i talk about it for 25 years

01:36:26.789 --> 01:36:31.670
i'm going to prison yeah exactly and even with

01:36:31.670 --> 01:36:33.569
the counseling side you know what they call the

01:36:33.569 --> 01:36:35.979
culturally competent clinician You know, we the

01:36:35.979 --> 01:36:39.159
number of horror stories I've heard, you know,

01:36:39.260 --> 01:36:41.840
the EAP Russian roulette, basically, where these

01:36:41.840 --> 01:36:44.699
poor first responders in this case get sent to

01:36:44.699 --> 01:36:47.619
what ends up being, you know, a lot of these

01:36:47.619 --> 01:36:49.640
counselors are like, oh, yeah, we deal with first

01:36:49.640 --> 01:36:52.159
responders and they don't. And then they sit

01:36:52.159 --> 01:36:53.920
in front of this person and they either burst

01:36:53.920 --> 01:36:55.819
into tears or they tell them to get out. They

01:36:55.819 --> 01:36:58.119
can't help them. And I've said this on the on

01:36:58.119 --> 01:37:01.760
here a few times. Imagine how many first responders

01:37:01.760 --> 01:37:05.250
or veterans. that aren't here anymore because

01:37:05.250 --> 01:37:08.890
it was all they had left to say, I'm going to

01:37:08.890 --> 01:37:12.170
go and find help. They get sent to the wrong

01:37:12.170 --> 01:37:14.609
person and that ends up being the final nail

01:37:14.609 --> 01:37:16.430
in the coffin. They walk out saying, yeah, I

01:37:16.430 --> 01:37:18.010
am a piece of shit. And then they go end it.

01:37:18.529 --> 01:37:22.689
So that was the path I went on. The first therapist

01:37:22.689 --> 01:37:27.510
I spoke to in the military, I walked in, waited

01:37:27.510 --> 01:37:30.310
for him to come in. As soon as he comes in, he's

01:37:30.310 --> 01:37:33.090
probably in his mid or early 20s. He had just

01:37:33.090 --> 01:37:37.510
graduated. And I come back from Iraq already

01:37:37.510 --> 01:37:39.850
doing six months chasing all these shitheads.

01:37:40.630 --> 01:37:43.949
So I'm pretty angry. And he's setting up a video

01:37:43.949 --> 01:37:47.550
camera. And I'm like, I've been fighting a war

01:37:47.550 --> 01:37:49.170
for six months and you want to videotape this

01:37:49.170 --> 01:37:52.810
shit? He says, well, it's part of my certification

01:37:52.810 --> 01:37:58.060
process. I'm like, uh -uh. He's like, well, what

01:37:58.060 --> 01:38:00.319
do you want to talk about? I felt like I was

01:38:00.319 --> 01:38:03.279
talking to a child. And I'm supposed to discuss

01:38:03.279 --> 01:38:06.000
war trauma with you? Dude, I'm going to have

01:38:06.000 --> 01:38:07.920
you in the corner crying here in about 10 minutes.

01:38:08.439 --> 01:38:10.180
We ain't going to talk about the heavy shit.

01:38:11.340 --> 01:38:14.020
So that was my first, okay, what the hell with

01:38:14.020 --> 01:38:17.600
therapists? Yeah. And this was so dangerous with

01:38:17.600 --> 01:38:20.159
the wrong people. And again, like you said, when

01:38:20.159 --> 01:38:23.819
so much of this is coming from the wrong place,

01:38:24.039 --> 01:38:26.989
whether it's just... death by red tape or whether

01:38:26.989 --> 01:38:30.810
it is you know jogs justification power greed

01:38:30.810 --> 01:38:34.069
etc i mean these are human lives and if we put

01:38:34.069 --> 01:38:36.109
them in the wrong person in front of the wrong

01:38:36.109 --> 01:38:38.789
person or give them the wrong drug i mean how

01:38:38.789 --> 01:38:42.470
many you know antidepressants have those drug

01:38:42.470 --> 01:38:44.229
warnings at the end of the commercial saying

01:38:44.229 --> 01:38:46.909
you know might cause suicide ideation well isn't

01:38:46.909 --> 01:38:48.789
that the very thing that we're trying to stop

01:38:48.789 --> 01:38:52.279
and this is this is allowed So, you know, I mean,

01:38:52.300 --> 01:38:55.079
it is it's so irresponsible. And what's exciting

01:38:55.079 --> 01:38:58.159
now is what we're talking about. Hopefully, we're

01:38:58.159 --> 01:38:59.760
going to look back one day and go, you never

01:38:59.760 --> 01:39:04.060
guess what we used to do. So I woke up one night

01:39:04.060 --> 01:39:07.239
after getting a new med and we were in Montana

01:39:07.239 --> 01:39:11.659
and there's Lyrica. And I woke up in the middle

01:39:11.659 --> 01:39:14.680
of the night and I would have bet you my paycheck

01:39:14.680 --> 01:39:19.720
that demons were coming out of the wall. I was

01:39:19.720 --> 01:39:21.569
like, I know this ain't real. But I'm seeing

01:39:21.569 --> 01:39:24.310
it. I know it ain't real. And I call the doctor

01:39:24.310 --> 01:39:26.729
the next morning. You know what they say? Well,

01:39:26.930 --> 01:39:30.909
try it one more night. You try it one more night.

01:39:31.250 --> 01:39:34.970
I'm like, oh, hell no. I'm supposed to be getting

01:39:34.970 --> 01:39:36.750
better. Seeing demons ain't going to make me

01:39:36.750 --> 01:39:41.329
feel better. Like, no. And that's where I just

01:39:41.329 --> 01:39:45.189
had to stop. Listen to the hippie. Use the natural

01:39:45.189 --> 01:39:48.630
meds. And then the more you learn about that.

01:39:49.359 --> 01:39:51.939
um most people don't even know that you have

01:39:51.939 --> 01:39:56.300
cannabinoid receptors in your brain there's cb1

01:39:56.300 --> 01:39:59.579
and cb2 receptors that are specifically for cannabinoids

01:39:59.579 --> 01:40:04.819
and it's it's crazy you know we saw a lot of

01:40:04.819 --> 01:40:08.560
change in 2018 with the farm bill which is another

01:40:08.560 --> 01:40:12.800
interesting story um most people don't know that

01:40:12.800 --> 01:40:16.460
they changed the word hemp to an actual definition

01:40:17.310 --> 01:40:19.369
So hemp, according to the federal government,

01:40:19.470 --> 01:40:22.989
is now known as cannabis Steva L with a THC of

01:40:22.989 --> 01:40:27.569
0 .3 % or less. I don't know how you can change

01:40:27.569 --> 01:40:33.090
a word to a definition, but okay. But that's

01:40:33.090 --> 01:40:36.630
what's even more interesting because, and this

01:40:36.630 --> 01:40:40.529
came from the ATF by chance, because I'm in the

01:40:40.529 --> 01:40:44.250
gun community. And they gave me two letters.

01:40:45.300 --> 01:40:47.920
Three letters. Two of them said medical cannabis

01:40:47.920 --> 01:40:50.039
or any type of marijuana is horrible. You can't

01:40:50.039 --> 01:40:51.979
buy guns or do anything with them while you're

01:40:51.979 --> 01:40:55.859
on it. But because of the 2018 Farm Bill, anything

01:40:55.859 --> 01:40:58.619
that comes from cannabis, Teval, with a THC of

01:40:58.619 --> 01:41:02.359
0 .3 % or less is no longer on the controlled

01:41:02.359 --> 01:41:07.460
substances list to include THC. So it's a very

01:41:07.460 --> 01:41:09.560
fine delineation, but that's why you've seen

01:41:09.560 --> 01:41:14.109
a downtick in... simple marijuana crimes because

01:41:14.109 --> 01:41:16.229
they can't really prove whether it's hemp or

01:41:16.229 --> 01:41:18.229
marijuana unless you make a comment about it

01:41:18.229 --> 01:41:21.550
so people are getting themselves into trouble

01:41:21.550 --> 01:41:27.770
but in reality it's legal because most marijuana

01:41:27.770 --> 01:41:30.689
doesn't have thc in it until you fire it up it's

01:41:30.689 --> 01:41:35.550
thca so like one little letter makes a huge difference

01:41:35.550 --> 01:41:43.930
in a legal doc document so In essence, it's all

01:41:43.930 --> 01:41:47.630
legal. It's interesting because even if you look

01:41:47.630 --> 01:41:52.130
at CBD, I've had numerous guests on here. I actually

01:41:52.130 --> 01:41:55.710
had Dr. Bonnie Goldstein on who actually uses

01:41:55.710 --> 01:41:59.470
cannabis specifically, THC, to treat all kinds

01:41:59.470 --> 01:42:02.670
of things, seizures and many other areas, cancer.

01:42:04.010 --> 01:42:07.920
But Paige Figge. was the mother of Charlotte.

01:42:08.060 --> 01:42:10.100
So when you hear Charlotte's web attached to

01:42:10.100 --> 01:42:13.520
CBD, that's her child. And she was, long story

01:42:13.520 --> 01:42:17.520
short, basically dying. She was a twin. I think

01:42:17.520 --> 01:42:21.859
she was like toddler age and tried all the things,

01:42:22.020 --> 01:42:24.199
you know, new drugs, everything, nothing was

01:42:24.199 --> 01:42:27.199
working. And because she was diving into any

01:42:27.199 --> 01:42:30.199
solution she could find, she stumbled across

01:42:30.199 --> 01:42:34.159
hemp. And so she had a company that she found

01:42:34.159 --> 01:42:37.939
that made her basically a CBD formula. They put

01:42:37.939 --> 01:42:42.180
it down the NG tube and the child started getting

01:42:42.180 --> 01:42:44.020
better. And that was actually these horrendous

01:42:44.020 --> 01:42:46.600
seizures that she would get to. And she ended

01:42:46.600 --> 01:42:49.619
up living till I think it was nine or 10. And

01:42:49.619 --> 01:42:52.039
ultimately, sadly, it was COVID when she got

01:42:52.039 --> 01:42:54.659
febrile from COVID. She had seizures during the

01:42:54.659 --> 01:42:57.039
night and she'd passed away. But she was given,

01:42:57.039 --> 01:43:00.399
you know, eight years lifespan because of CBD.

01:43:00.779 --> 01:43:03.340
And if you look what's happening to the CBD world

01:43:03.340 --> 01:43:07.060
now, it's, you know, so, so hard for these people

01:43:07.060 --> 01:43:10.520
to sell online, to market, to do anything. And

01:43:10.520 --> 01:43:14.000
again, you know, but you can get all these antidepressants,

01:43:14.000 --> 01:43:16.399
all these painkillers. Just go to your doctor,

01:43:16.520 --> 01:43:19.500
ask your doctor for. But God forbid that you

01:43:19.500 --> 01:43:23.510
get the, you know. the essence from a hemp plant

01:43:23.510 --> 01:43:26.649
not even a marijuana plant a hemp plant that

01:43:26.649 --> 01:43:31.609
is you know demonized by the fda when i started

01:43:31.609 --> 01:43:33.869
getting involved with the legislative work um

01:43:33.869 --> 01:43:36.789
i was actually i went the first meeting i had

01:43:36.789 --> 01:43:39.289
with the uh one of the senior members of the

01:43:39.289 --> 01:43:44.489
kentucky republican uh senate um i was with the

01:43:44.489 --> 01:43:48.149
kentucky moms for medical cannabis and they all

01:43:48.149 --> 01:43:53.779
had children that had severe issues and seizures

01:43:53.779 --> 01:43:57.979
um to hear them speak about what it would take

01:43:57.979 --> 01:44:02.460
to stop those seizures in public prior to any

01:44:02.460 --> 01:44:05.939
type of cannabis oil was horrendous like you

01:44:05.939 --> 01:44:10.159
you would never put your loved one through what

01:44:10.159 --> 01:44:13.039
they had to do because of the way the laws were

01:44:13.039 --> 01:44:16.539
and now these children can live somewhat of a

01:44:16.960 --> 01:44:21.340
independent okay life seizure free because of

01:44:21.340 --> 01:44:24.899
something that is absolutely all natural like

01:44:24.899 --> 01:44:28.399
and you know if you're a believer in god in the

01:44:28.399 --> 01:44:31.840
bible like genesis 1 11 starts talking about

01:44:31.840 --> 01:44:35.579
seeds and plants and um that they're there for

01:44:35.579 --> 01:44:39.640
our use so like you can't you can't preach out

01:44:39.640 --> 01:44:42.699
of it and not support it right like so again

01:44:42.699 --> 01:44:45.100
there's that hypocrisy there how many folks that

01:44:46.200 --> 01:44:48.819
say they completely support the bible but will

01:44:48.819 --> 01:44:51.359
not focus on that like well you can't have it

01:44:51.359 --> 01:44:54.199
both ways yeah well i've said this on here before

01:44:54.199 --> 01:44:56.180
how many people that walk out of a church and

01:44:56.180 --> 01:44:59.399
say that um narcan is a waste on addicts that

01:44:59.399 --> 01:45:02.020
the homeless need to be ushered over to someone

01:45:02.020 --> 01:45:05.020
else's community you know that's not christianity

01:45:05.020 --> 01:45:07.279
and it goes back to are you being a dick or not

01:45:07.279 --> 01:45:12.079
yeah and but see here's the weird thing you know

01:45:12.079 --> 01:45:14.819
i could get anybody that met the standard free

01:45:14.819 --> 01:45:18.000
mat which is medically assisted treatment suboxone

01:45:18.000 --> 01:45:21.960
methadone things like that but coming off suboxone

01:45:21.960 --> 01:45:24.000
is harder than coming off heroin like i only

01:45:24.000 --> 01:45:26.560
know a few people that have ever come off suboxone

01:45:26.560 --> 01:45:29.159
but they don't tell you that when you're getting

01:45:29.159 --> 01:45:33.579
put on it and it's absolutely free any addict

01:45:33.579 --> 01:45:36.659
in kentucky can go get it for free but guess

01:45:36.659 --> 01:45:38.760
what if you've got a felony conviction for certain

01:45:38.760 --> 01:45:40.840
things you cannot get a medical marijuana card

01:45:40.840 --> 01:45:44.380
in kentucky it's crazy but you can stay on your

01:45:44.380 --> 01:45:48.600
suboxone well even with that ibogaine i mean

01:45:48.600 --> 01:45:50.560
you know that's the other you know drug that

01:45:50.560 --> 01:45:52.260
was seeing so much success i mean especially

01:45:52.260 --> 01:45:54.479
in the the seal community that was the one that

01:45:54.479 --> 01:45:56.439
seemed to have really kind of leaned into this

01:45:56.439 --> 01:45:59.359
first but you know from a mental health point

01:45:59.359 --> 01:46:02.579
of view it's phenomenal but especially addiction

01:46:02.579 --> 01:46:06.159
alcoholism you know opioids etc they're they're

01:46:06.159 --> 01:46:09.119
walking out not wanting it anymore and as you

01:46:09.119 --> 01:46:12.760
said some of these you know um uh manufactured

01:46:12.760 --> 01:46:15.439
substitutes opiates they they're not getting

01:46:15.439 --> 01:46:17.439
off it it's just you know they're taking that

01:46:17.439 --> 01:46:19.819
instead of the other thing but these people that

01:46:19.819 --> 01:46:23.260
are going and doing ibogaine and 5 -meo dmt you

01:46:23.260 --> 01:46:26.520
know are coming out with their receptors completely

01:46:26.520 --> 01:46:29.300
reset now of course there is work to do because

01:46:29.300 --> 01:46:30.859
you've still got to get to the thing beneath

01:46:30.859 --> 01:46:32.560
the thing why do you even take it in the first

01:46:32.560 --> 01:46:34.640
place i think that's where there's a misnomer

01:46:34.640 --> 01:46:37.539
it's not a magic bullet but if you want to take

01:46:37.920 --> 01:46:40.939
that pull of addiction away from someone and

01:46:40.939 --> 01:46:43.520
then give them the ability to heal it sounds

01:46:43.520 --> 01:46:45.439
like ibogaine is going to be one of the most

01:46:45.439 --> 01:46:49.039
incredible plant medicines that was actually

01:46:49.039 --> 01:46:53.500
one of the first ones i heard about because i'm

01:46:53.500 --> 01:46:55.699
very blessed to have had one of the coaches that

01:46:55.699 --> 01:47:00.060
started that special forces work with ibogaine

01:47:00.060 --> 01:47:03.979
back in the day that's who kind of guided me

01:47:03.979 --> 01:47:07.619
with the psilocybin But he gave me an example.

01:47:07.739 --> 01:47:09.939
He said, so the way the process worked is you

01:47:09.939 --> 01:47:12.359
prep for a few months, talk about intention,

01:47:12.699 --> 01:47:15.239
what you want to do. It's a very guided process.

01:47:15.359 --> 01:47:17.300
Then you go for a few days and then there's a

01:47:17.300 --> 01:47:20.079
few months of follow up, possibly, you know,

01:47:20.079 --> 01:47:22.520
a refresh in a year or so, depending on what

01:47:22.520 --> 01:47:24.979
you're processing. And he said, and this guy

01:47:24.979 --> 01:47:29.859
had the most extreme everything like treatment

01:47:29.859 --> 01:47:32.359
resistant, medication resistance, absolutely

01:47:32.359 --> 01:47:35.149
no progress on anything. He did all the prep

01:47:35.149 --> 01:47:37.449
work. He goes in there first time, walks out,

01:47:37.489 --> 01:47:39.090
says, like, I'm good, guys. I just had a six

01:47:39.090 --> 01:47:42.970
-hour conversation with God. Ready to roll. So

01:47:42.970 --> 01:47:44.229
they didn't have any follow -up with him, but

01:47:44.229 --> 01:47:46.449
the guy's still good to this day from my understanding.

01:47:46.949 --> 01:47:52.010
But literally, right after, like, okay, you tell

01:47:52.010 --> 01:47:55.189
me any of the efficacy rates for any of the SSRIs,

01:47:55.189 --> 01:47:58.170
effects or opiates. If you can give me above

01:47:58.170 --> 01:48:01.409
50, I might even think about it. But I guarantee

01:48:01.409 --> 01:48:05.930
you they ain't there. No. No, it's really exciting.

01:48:06.090 --> 01:48:09.350
And as I said before, I think that we are on

01:48:09.350 --> 01:48:11.689
a revolution in so many areas. Like there's a

01:48:11.689 --> 01:48:14.529
revolution in my profession when it comes to

01:48:14.529 --> 01:48:16.369
the work week, which is then going to lead to

01:48:16.369 --> 01:48:19.069
fitness standards and access to more mental health

01:48:19.069 --> 01:48:20.949
counseling and all things. And we're going to

01:48:20.949 --> 01:48:24.750
switch from trying not to die to forging performance

01:48:24.750 --> 01:48:26.569
in the fire service. That'll be the next step.

01:48:26.710 --> 01:48:29.390
And I think nationally, there's an awakening

01:48:29.390 --> 01:48:32.189
where people are realizing, no, we're not. doing

01:48:32.189 --> 01:48:34.029
well there's a lot of areas where we do need

01:48:34.029 --> 01:48:35.609
to fix there's a lot of people that made a lot

01:48:35.609 --> 01:48:38.350
of money on the deaths of americans you know

01:48:38.350 --> 01:48:42.090
tobacco big pharma you know sugar etc etc so

01:48:42.090 --> 01:48:45.149
i find it really exciting that this conversation

01:48:45.149 --> 01:48:47.850
now the plant medicine conversation not just

01:48:47.850 --> 01:48:50.409
for mental health for so many other things like

01:48:50.409 --> 01:48:52.869
one of my guests that did ibogaine she had you

01:48:52.869 --> 01:48:56.130
know horrendous autoimmune disorders and that

01:48:56.130 --> 01:48:59.930
went away after she started doing it so People

01:48:59.930 --> 01:49:05.010
don't realize how your mind can affect your body

01:49:05.010 --> 01:49:07.909
without you even knowing it. And it's like your

01:49:07.909 --> 01:49:14.409
body is a process. It's trying to work on all

01:49:14.409 --> 01:49:17.090
these little systems and processes. And if something's

01:49:17.090 --> 01:49:19.590
out of whack, it's not going to function right.

01:49:21.369 --> 01:49:24.409
The second I started getting off the meds and

01:49:24.409 --> 01:49:28.630
started really researching everything. Everything

01:49:28.630 --> 01:49:32.890
made more sense. I went TDY to Spain back in

01:49:32.890 --> 01:49:34.710
the day and I'd forgotten my antiperspirant.

01:49:34.770 --> 01:49:36.710
I'd always been told you got to use antiperspirant

01:49:36.710 --> 01:49:38.149
so you don't sweat through your uniform, right?

01:49:39.609 --> 01:49:43.689
And I walk into a pharmacy in Zaragoza, Spain,

01:49:43.909 --> 01:49:47.289
and I asked the pharmacist, you got antiperspirant?

01:49:47.329 --> 01:49:48.869
And he looks at me, he's like, oh, you stupid

01:49:48.869 --> 01:49:51.210
American. He's like, deodorant's right there.

01:49:51.350 --> 01:49:53.789
He's like, that shit's called your cancer. What?

01:49:54.069 --> 01:49:57.100
He's like, yeah, the aluminum. You're stupid

01:49:57.100 --> 01:50:00.180
putting that on you. Blew my mind. Like, that's

01:50:00.180 --> 01:50:02.619
all on the shelves here in the U .S. Like, nobody

01:50:02.619 --> 01:50:05.340
ever told me. And I used to get those lumps in

01:50:05.340 --> 01:50:09.520
my pits. Well, as soon as I stopped using the

01:50:09.520 --> 01:50:13.439
aluminum, they went away. Like, how the hell

01:50:13.439 --> 01:50:17.199
is that affecting us? Exactly. And it's everything.

01:50:17.380 --> 01:50:20.020
So then you start looking at what you drink and

01:50:20.020 --> 01:50:22.220
what you eat. Now I don't even want to go out

01:50:22.220 --> 01:50:24.239
to restaurants half the time because I don't

01:50:24.239 --> 01:50:27.400
know what the hell they're putting in it. This

01:50:27.400 --> 01:50:29.960
is what's exciting is that you can start identifying

01:50:29.960 --> 01:50:32.340
it. It's overwhelming when you look at all the

01:50:32.340 --> 01:50:35.539
things, but you can just begin. Do you use plastic

01:50:35.539 --> 01:50:38.659
Tupperware? There's glass ones now in all the

01:50:38.659 --> 01:50:42.819
stores. Like you said, the food, the types of

01:50:42.819 --> 01:50:44.840
water that you're drinking, you can just chip

01:50:44.840 --> 01:50:48.579
away. I use the Tom's antiperspirant. It actually

01:50:48.579 --> 01:50:50.920
smells so much better than any of the cheap ones

01:50:50.920 --> 01:50:53.699
I used to get. That has none of the parabens

01:50:53.699 --> 01:50:56.439
and aluminium and all the other Things that we

01:50:56.439 --> 01:50:59.520
now know are bad for us. But, you know, people

01:50:59.520 --> 01:51:01.739
won't be able to remove those if they don't know

01:51:01.739 --> 01:51:05.100
about them. So as this kind of health revolution

01:51:05.100 --> 01:51:09.399
is, you know, gaining legs, firstly, people are

01:51:09.399 --> 01:51:10.819
going to be empowered to change the way they

01:51:10.819 --> 01:51:12.760
do things. And then hopefully the next step will

01:51:12.760 --> 01:51:14.680
be all the healthier stuff will actually become

01:51:14.680 --> 01:51:17.279
cheaper in the stores because you vote with your

01:51:17.279 --> 01:51:20.779
dollar supply and demand. Dude, when I'm in a

01:51:20.779 --> 01:51:24.659
hurry or was broke. You know, it's easy to go

01:51:24.659 --> 01:51:27.520
get the $2 .99 cheeseburgers and power through

01:51:27.520 --> 01:51:32.720
versus the $5 .99 or $6 .99 mini salad that you

01:51:32.720 --> 01:51:36.319
can get. Like, well, I'm a broke airman. I'm

01:51:36.319 --> 01:51:40.420
going to buy the two burgers. Yep. People vote

01:51:40.420 --> 01:51:44.119
with their wallet, just like you said. Absolutely.

01:51:44.560 --> 01:51:46.539
Well, I want to throw some closing questions

01:51:46.539 --> 01:51:48.739
at you before I let you go, if you've got time.

01:51:49.239 --> 01:51:51.579
Yeah. All right. The first one I love to ask,

01:51:51.680 --> 01:51:54.000
is there a book or other books that you love

01:51:54.000 --> 01:51:56.319
to recommend? It can be related to our discussion

01:51:56.319 --> 01:52:04.640
today or completely unrelated. Yes, actually,

01:52:04.760 --> 01:52:06.899
you know, I got a lot of buddies that have written

01:52:06.899 --> 01:52:09.840
war books, but the most significant book that

01:52:09.840 --> 01:52:13.899
actually helped me was a series by Lieutenant

01:52:13.899 --> 01:52:17.899
Colonel Dave Grossman. There's a lot of. back

01:52:17.899 --> 01:52:19.779
and forth on him, but if you've ever been in

01:52:19.779 --> 01:52:22.399
his presence and listened to one of his talks,

01:52:22.579 --> 01:52:25.920
it's pretty powerful. Um, after I read his books,

01:52:26.039 --> 01:52:29.460
it had such an impact on me that I actually was

01:52:29.460 --> 01:52:33.460
able to, um, obtain funding to send all my agents

01:52:33.460 --> 01:52:38.560
in Montana to one of his, um, um, seminars prior

01:52:38.560 --> 01:52:42.779
to them deploying. So I know that they had that

01:52:42.779 --> 01:52:45.619
tool in their toolbox, um, to figure out, you

01:52:45.619 --> 01:52:47.880
know, How is your mind going to behave before,

01:52:48.039 --> 01:52:51.359
during, and after? A little bit more deeper than

01:52:51.359 --> 01:52:53.420
anybody wants you to know right off the bat.

01:52:54.899 --> 01:52:58.199
But by knowing that stuff, you can prepare. And

01:52:58.199 --> 01:53:00.039
it's not for the faint of heart. He's got a lot

01:53:00.039 --> 01:53:02.859
of research in there to back up his theories,

01:53:02.979 --> 01:53:06.539
and it works. We just did, I think it was our

01:53:06.539 --> 01:53:09.439
fourth conversation, literally about two months

01:53:09.439 --> 01:53:11.979
ago. But I think he's fantastic. I mean, obviously

01:53:11.979 --> 01:53:14.359
on combat, on killing, those are very prevalent,

01:53:14.460 --> 01:53:17.409
but that's not... my area my profession specifically

01:53:17.409 --> 01:53:21.770
where yeah that one and but then the assassination

01:53:21.770 --> 01:53:25.109
generation I thought that was so well written

01:53:25.109 --> 01:53:27.369
on this violence in schools that we're seeing

01:53:27.369 --> 01:53:29.489
and he was the one of the first ones talking

01:53:29.489 --> 01:53:31.810
about violent video games and I would admit I

01:53:31.810 --> 01:53:33.630
was one of the ones going ah it can't be that

01:53:33.630 --> 01:53:35.930
bad but then when you listen to the psychology

01:53:35.930 --> 01:53:38.949
of the operant conditioning and the sleep deprivation

01:53:38.949 --> 01:53:42.180
and all these things that are you know feed into

01:53:42.180 --> 01:53:44.359
this and then the side effects of psych meds

01:53:44.359 --> 01:53:46.779
and then you look at these school shooters over

01:53:46.779 --> 01:53:49.979
and over and over again they're the same exact

01:53:49.979 --> 01:53:53.119
quality so i mean he he hit the nail on the head

01:53:53.119 --> 01:53:55.819
and i wish people would take that book as a kind

01:53:55.819 --> 01:53:58.119
of bible to be like all right how do we start

01:53:58.119 --> 01:54:01.020
reverse engineering all these issues so that

01:54:01.020 --> 01:54:04.279
we don't create these lone wolf you know psychotic

01:54:04.279 --> 01:54:08.899
episodes in these children you know his uh briefing

01:54:08.899 --> 01:54:11.659
about that with the school shootings and how

01:54:11.659 --> 01:54:15.180
the kids are behaving you know he does all the

01:54:15.180 --> 01:54:18.340
um research about the beslan school massacre

01:54:18.340 --> 01:54:20.899
how everybody behaved in that and how all the

01:54:20.899 --> 01:54:24.100
multiple failures in it but i think the most

01:54:24.100 --> 01:54:26.180
profound what he talks about is the phones in

01:54:26.180 --> 01:54:29.619
schools and He had that study where a few schools

01:54:29.619 --> 01:54:32.380
agreed to take the phones out and scores just

01:54:32.380 --> 01:54:35.819
went skyrocketed. 30, 40 percent changes in classes,

01:54:36.060 --> 01:54:38.920
less bullying, less problems on social media.

01:54:40.100 --> 01:54:43.140
And Kentucky just did that. They made it a law

01:54:43.140 --> 01:54:45.760
this coming year that they're not supposed to

01:54:45.760 --> 01:54:48.760
generally have phones out during class. There's

01:54:48.760 --> 01:54:51.680
going to be some exceptions. Kentucky went even

01:54:51.680 --> 01:54:57.210
further, though, and they limited. student -teacher

01:54:57.210 --> 01:54:59.569
communication. You can't text between student

01:54:59.569 --> 01:55:01.869
and teacher anymore here in Kentucky, which is

01:55:01.869 --> 01:55:05.609
good. I got a friend, Doug Orchard, who became

01:55:05.609 --> 01:55:07.649
a friend again through this show, but he made

01:55:07.649 --> 01:55:10.890
a documentary called The Motivation Factor, and

01:55:10.890 --> 01:55:16.369
it was the PE program in California. um la sierra

01:55:16.369 --> 01:55:19.390
high school back in the 60s and it was modeled

01:55:19.390 --> 01:55:21.449
actually on on a russian model they were inspired

01:55:21.449 --> 01:55:24.090
by this russian group and what they did is they

01:55:24.090 --> 01:55:27.350
had mandatory pe that the whole school did every

01:55:27.350 --> 01:55:29.970
single day they put the kids into groups and

01:55:29.970 --> 01:55:31.789
i'm sure they you know initially tested them

01:55:31.789 --> 01:55:34.210
to find out that they were you know similar ability

01:55:34.210 --> 01:55:37.229
and it was almost like a martial arts belt system

01:55:37.229 --> 01:55:39.050
there were different colored shorts i think there

01:55:39.050 --> 01:55:43.109
was four um and so what happened was the entire

01:55:43.109 --> 01:55:46.750
school got fair now the the top tier you know

01:55:46.750 --> 01:55:48.789
they look like freaking men's health cover models

01:55:48.789 --> 01:55:51.369
i mean you watch the videos and so if you wanted

01:55:51.369 --> 01:55:53.170
to have a baseball player a football player whatever

01:55:53.170 --> 01:55:55.029
well they just learned how to play the sport

01:55:55.029 --> 01:55:57.689
they're already conditioned for the sport but

01:55:57.689 --> 01:56:00.250
even you know let's say the you know the math

01:56:00.250 --> 01:56:03.529
class um or you know the clarinet player that

01:56:03.529 --> 01:56:05.310
wasn't really into the sport they were still

01:56:05.310 --> 01:56:08.090
really really healthy but it was the same thing

01:56:08.090 --> 01:56:11.289
you know that you just alluded to also the test

01:56:11.289 --> 01:56:14.279
scores went up the bullying went down So you

01:56:14.279 --> 01:56:17.300
take away phones, you put in real food, you put

01:56:17.300 --> 01:56:20.720
in mandatory P .E. I mean, you would revolutionize

01:56:20.720 --> 01:56:22.539
the health in this country. And that's exactly

01:56:22.539 --> 01:56:25.239
the conversation that should have happened after

01:56:25.239 --> 01:56:27.779
the pandemic. The fact that nothing happened

01:56:27.779 --> 01:56:30.159
again circling around to the beginning of this

01:56:30.159 --> 01:56:32.819
conversation underlines that it was actually

01:56:32.819 --> 01:56:35.619
there was no intent to make this nation healthier.

01:56:36.119 --> 01:56:38.619
but the answers are there. And I hope that that

01:56:38.619 --> 01:56:40.960
program and, you know, Jamie Oliver's push for

01:56:40.960 --> 01:56:43.039
real food in schools, like all these people that

01:56:43.039 --> 01:56:45.399
have been fighting the fight that we will turn,

01:56:45.479 --> 01:56:47.340
you know, go full circle and go back to that.

01:56:47.460 --> 01:56:50.680
Because again, if you want to be a threat to

01:56:50.680 --> 01:56:53.079
other nations that maybe see us as the enemy,

01:56:53.199 --> 01:56:56.479
do you want what you see in Walmart today? Or

01:56:56.479 --> 01:56:59.199
do you want La Sierra high school in the sixties?

01:56:59.220 --> 01:57:02.359
I know which one I want. Yeah. Well, I mean,

01:57:02.359 --> 01:57:06.970
it's a 1 % grub, you know, there's only, I think

01:57:06.970 --> 01:57:08.949
one or two percent of people that even meet a

01:57:08.949 --> 01:57:13.569
military standard right now. It's the same for

01:57:13.569 --> 01:57:16.069
law enforcement and first responders. You know,

01:57:16.109 --> 01:57:18.149
you guys have a hard time recruiting, too, and

01:57:18.149 --> 01:57:19.750
getting people that are healthy to come into

01:57:19.750 --> 01:57:23.770
it because you're dealing with 20 years of improper

01:57:23.770 --> 01:57:28.189
upbringing. Not on purpose in a lot of ways because

01:57:28.189 --> 01:57:30.550
people didn't know. Yeah. Product of the environment.

01:57:31.189 --> 01:57:34.720
Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, then that was a

01:57:34.720 --> 01:57:37.079
great rabbit hole, you know, segue from the book

01:57:37.079 --> 01:57:39.399
question. What about films and documentaries

01:57:39.399 --> 01:57:47.560
that you love? Films and documentaries. You know,

01:57:47.640 --> 01:57:51.479
I've really kind of diverted from anything realistic

01:57:51.479 --> 01:57:57.880
anymore. I love the ancient alien explorations

01:57:57.880 --> 01:58:04.659
now. So the dude with the crazy hair. And then,

01:58:04.739 --> 01:58:09.579
you know, researching a lot of that odd history,

01:58:09.760 --> 01:58:13.420
you know, doing everything that I did throughout

01:58:13.420 --> 01:58:15.380
the years and all the training that led up to

01:58:15.380 --> 01:58:19.680
that and all the reading and knowledge, a lot

01:58:19.680 --> 01:58:22.020
of leadership and details. I tried to push a

01:58:22.020 --> 01:58:25.520
lot of that out of my head now and kind of just

01:58:25.520 --> 01:58:28.460
live for the moment. And, you know, I know all

01:58:28.460 --> 01:58:30.579
the bad stuff that happened, but I try not to

01:58:30.579 --> 01:58:34.710
read about it anymore. try to focus on, okay,

01:58:34.810 --> 01:58:38.109
what do I need to do? Where do I need to be at

01:58:38.109 --> 01:58:41.090
this moment to do whatever the universe or God

01:58:41.090 --> 01:58:44.949
wants me to do today? Love it. Well, speaking

01:58:44.949 --> 01:58:47.750
of amazing people, is there a person that you

01:58:47.750 --> 01:58:50.310
recommend to come on this podcast as a guest

01:58:50.310 --> 01:58:53.130
to speak to the first responders, military, and

01:58:53.130 --> 01:59:00.659
associated professions of the world? Hmm. You

01:59:00.659 --> 01:59:03.180
know, I really can't because everybody's so tight

01:59:03.180 --> 01:59:08.800
lipped in my world. You know, there's very few

01:59:08.800 --> 01:59:11.800
people that really want to be put their name

01:59:11.800 --> 01:59:13.819
out there, even if they support all this stuff.

01:59:13.880 --> 01:59:17.020
It's because of where their involvement still

01:59:17.020 --> 01:59:20.100
is or what their clearances are. Because if you

01:59:20.100 --> 01:59:22.000
say the wrong thing, now you're getting investigated

01:59:22.000 --> 01:59:26.760
and you could potentially lose a pretty good

01:59:26.760 --> 01:59:32.630
chunk of change on employment. So I can't really

01:59:32.630 --> 01:59:35.930
say I would right now. I'll tell you what, though.

01:59:35.970 --> 01:59:37.789
I guarantee you some of my buddies are going

01:59:37.789 --> 01:59:41.390
to reach out after seeing this. And if they're

01:59:41.390 --> 01:59:43.270
interested, I'll definitely point them your way.

01:59:43.649 --> 01:59:46.189
Perfect. Perfect. I appreciate it. All right.

01:59:46.189 --> 01:59:48.210
Well, the last question before we make sure everyone

01:59:48.210 --> 01:59:51.109
knows where to find you. What do you do to decompress?

01:59:52.789 --> 01:59:57.789
I do a lot of welding. i'm actually a teacher

01:59:57.789 --> 02:00:00.949
now part -time i'm finishing up a few certifications

02:00:00.949 --> 02:00:04.409
but uh i took an adjunct professional professor

02:00:04.409 --> 02:00:07.810
role with the kentucky technical college system

02:00:07.810 --> 02:00:13.229
gateway university up in boone county so i'm

02:00:13.229 --> 02:00:15.630
enjoying that and then when i'm not teaching

02:00:15.630 --> 02:00:20.630
i'm making stuff here whether it be shop equipment

02:00:20.630 --> 02:00:22.970
fixing trailers one of the projects right now

02:00:22.970 --> 02:00:29.159
is uh building our vfw memorial day trailer and

02:00:29.159 --> 02:00:32.079
putting railings on it and a step system so that

02:00:32.079 --> 02:00:36.119
the older guys don't have to climb up you know

02:00:36.119 --> 02:00:38.760
a ladder or something to get in there trying

02:00:38.760 --> 02:00:42.699
to make things more user friendly and then really

02:00:42.699 --> 02:00:46.319
just a lot of involvement with the vfw and veterans

02:00:46.319 --> 02:00:49.220
around the local area we're always getting phone

02:00:49.220 --> 02:00:51.199
calls say hey can we help this person do this

02:00:51.199 --> 02:00:54.180
this and this and Within a few minutes, we've

02:00:54.180 --> 02:00:56.760
got answers. And within a couple hours, checks

02:00:56.760 --> 02:01:01.520
are getting cut and helping folks. Amazing. It's

02:01:01.520 --> 02:01:03.680
nice to see it when it works right. Absolutely.

02:01:04.600 --> 02:01:06.399
Brilliant. Well, for people listening, if they

02:01:06.399 --> 02:01:08.500
want to reach out to you, learn more, where are

02:01:08.500 --> 02:01:11.939
the best places online or social media? Probably

02:01:11.939 --> 02:01:14.199
Facebook, just under my name, Jared Bonville.

02:01:14.239 --> 02:01:16.760
I don't accept too many friend requests. I got

02:01:16.760 --> 02:01:18.779
to really know you in real life, but I do accept

02:01:18.779 --> 02:01:21.979
messages. Takes me a while to get back to them

02:01:21.979 --> 02:01:27.340
sometimes but You know, it's probably the best

02:01:27.340 --> 02:01:30.699
bet brilliant Well, Jared, I want to thank you

02:01:30.699 --> 02:01:32.960
so much. It's been such an interesting conversation.

02:01:33.220 --> 02:01:35.560
I mean, you're, you know, I always say this,

02:01:35.619 --> 02:01:38.880
the courage to be vulnerable in itself, you know,

02:01:38.880 --> 02:01:42.180
is so empowering. But then when it comes to this

02:01:42.180 --> 02:01:44.819
discussion on, you know, the plant medicine that's

02:01:44.819 --> 02:01:47.239
helped you, especially with a law enforcement

02:01:47.239 --> 02:01:49.560
background, I think it's such a powerful and

02:01:49.560 --> 02:01:52.659
important voice. So I want to thank you so, so

02:01:52.659 --> 02:01:54.720
much for being so generous with your time and

02:01:54.720 --> 02:01:56.539
coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

02:01:57.200 --> 02:01:59.760
I thank you so much, James. I appreciate it.

02:02:00.159 --> 02:02:02.880
You know, I just I try to it's tough to have

02:02:02.880 --> 02:02:05.899
these discussions when it's got to be so hidden

02:02:05.899 --> 02:02:08.899
in a lot of ways. But folks need to understand

02:02:08.899 --> 02:02:11.560
that there are different avenues to get some

02:02:11.560 --> 02:02:15.180
help and not have to suffer as much as you think

02:02:15.180 --> 02:02:18.819
you do. It's not that difficult. You just have

02:02:18.819 --> 02:02:20.300
to change your way of thinking a little bit.