This episode is brought to you by Thorne and
I have some incredible news for any of you that
are in the military, first responder or medical
professions. In an effort to give back, Thorne
is now offering you an ongoing 25 % off each
and every one of your purchases of their incredible
nutritional solutions. Now Thorne is the official
supplement of CrossFit, the UFC, the Mayo Clinic,
the Human Performance Project. and multiple special
operations organizations. I myself have used
them for several years, and that is why I brought
them on as a sponsor. Some of my favorite products
they have are their Multivitamin Elite, their
Whey Protein, the Super EPA, and then most recently,
Sinaquel. As a firefighter, a stuntman, and a
martial artist, I've had my share of brain trauma
and sleep deprivation, and Sinaquel is their
latest brain health supplement. Now to qualify
for the 35 % off, go to thorne .com, T -H -O
-R -N -E .com. Click on sign in and then create
a new account. You will see the opportunity to
register as a first responder or member of military.
When you click on that, it will take you through
verification with GovX. You'll simply choose
a profession, provide one piece of documentation,
and then you are verified for life. From that
point onwards, you will continue to receive 35
% off through Thorn. Now, for those of you who
don't qualify, there is still the 10 % off using
the code BTN. 10, Behind the Shield 10, for a
one -time purchase. Now to learn more about Thorne,
go to episode 323 of the Behind the Shield podcast
with Joel Totoro and Wes Barnett. Welcome to
the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my
name is James Geering, and this week it is my
absolute honor to welcome on the show American
doctor of radiology, Aziz Rahman. Now, as you
will hear, Aziz just returned from a two -week
aid trip to Gaza. And this is yet one of the
many voices I've had from the men who have actually
been boots on the ground during this conflict.
So we discuss a host of topics from his own journey
into medicine, AI and radiology, what took him
to Palestine, the immense workload on health
care providers in Gaza, the lack of equipment,
the deliberate starvation. murder at the aid
sites, and so much more. Now, before we get to
this incredibly important and powerful conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment,
go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show. Leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
well over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in
return is that you help share these incredible
men and women's stories so I can get them to
every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. So with that being said... I introduce
to you Dr. Aziz Rahman. Enjoy. Well, Aziz, I
want to start by saying two things. Firstly,
thank you to our mutual friend, Thayer, for making
this introduction. And secondly, I want to welcome
you onto the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Well, thank you, James, for having me on your
show. Dr. Ahmed actually introduced us last week,
I believe. So the fact that you put this together
so quickly, I really appreciate that. Yeah, well,
I mean, I think it needs to. And this is what
we're going to take a deep dive into. So where
on planet Earth are we finding you this evening?
I'm in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I've been here for
six years, but born and raised in Boston, Massachusetts,
actually Worcester, which most people don't know
how to pronounce. And they say Worcester or Worchester,
like Worchester Cyrus. Yes, which if you're English
is hilarious, just so you know that. Yeah, I
bet you got that background. So how would you
have said it if you didn't know it's Worcester?
Well, yeah, Worcester is that we have Worcester
in England. So, yeah, it would have been said
the correct way, I would argue. That's correct.
All right. Well, then let's start at the very
beginning then. So tell me where you were born
and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic,
what your parents did, how many siblings. Yeah,
so I was born in Massachusetts, one of five siblings.
So I was the second youngest, two older brothers,
one older sister, and then one younger sister.
My mom and dad, you know, typical family. My
dad was a doctor. My mom was a stay -at -home.
mom. She was trained as an engineer, but once
she had kids, it just became too difficult to
work at the same time. So she basically did a
lot of our raising. She would teach us pretty
much everything after school. She would sit down
with us before school, teach us math and stuff.
So I credit her a lot for my education, for my
work ethic and whatnot. So it was not just school
that she wanted us to be good at, but extracurriculars.
I was on the football team. I was on the track
team. So she made sure we were well -rounded
in that sense. Were they American or were any
of them immigrants at that point? They were immigrants
from Hyderabad, India. Oh, okay. All my siblings
were born in Massachusetts. Okay. So I love,
you know, again, we are a nation of such diversity,
you know, and there is so much power in the immigration
stories. As you were growing up or even conversations
today. When they reflect back, you know, what
were the beautiful things about Indian culture
they left? And then what was some of the things
that they are glad that they came to the U .S.
because of? Yeah, that's a great question. So,
you know, America has always been the land of
opportunity, right? So my dad did his medical
training in India. But when he was given the
opportunity to come to America to do his residency,
his training. it was an opportunity that he couldn't
say no to so that's what brought him over here
and he was obviously married to my mom at that
time so she came over as well um you know her
my my my dad was the oldest of his siblings so
he was kind of the vanguard in that regard but
my mom she already had siblings here that had
already come over to work for like ibm and some
of these big software companies at that time
so um some of the stuff that you know that left
back behind in india most of the culture, you
know, the traditional wear clothes, the, you
know, traditional family unit, which is super
closely knit. They all kind of live on the same
street, same village. And that kind of mentality
where you could just go out, you know, and trust
that someone's watching your kids, someone's
going to be making sure that they know what your
kids are at all times. And it was truly like
the whole concept of it takes a village to raise
someone, that kind of concept, I think they left
behind there. Mainly because they just didn't
know what society was here, right? So they were
obviously very paranoid about us. But coming
here, they had so many new opportunities that
came up just like any immigration story. It's
interesting. I had a conversation with an Air
Force law enforcement veteran yesterday. And
I always talk about when you're deployed, what
were some of the beautiful things about the culture,
aside from the combat, obviously, the humanity.
And he was saying that multi -generational household
and the same exact thing, that it took a village
to raise children. And you hear the struggles
of a lot of people in the States now. You know,
mom works, dad works. They can barely afford
the daycare. And we've strayed away from, you
know, arguably what was. um the kind of village
dynamic all over the planet which you know yeah
if you're a hunter or a gatherer or whatever
it is then there was a group of people that would
help take care of the children while the parents
had to do whatever And now we've got so far from
that that, you know, even to the point where
people have made a good point, you know, now
that you've got two incomes, that way double
tax being paid, you know, is there a pull from
that side that's actually making both members
work? Because it is. It's near impossible now
for a lot of households to take care of their
own children. Yeah. No, I'm very cognizant of
that. I'm very grateful that, you know, my dad
was able to support. the family with his income.
Granted, I will say even he had difficulty with
five kids going to college. I mean, that's very
hard to afford. I would say almost impossible
for anyone to afford. So, you know, I completely
understand that sentiment. And unfortunately,
it's far too common that even with one of the
family members wants to stay at home and take
care of the kids, it's just not feasible sometimes.
You know, property tax are too expensive, you
know, just income. is not really rising with
inflation levels, groceries and everything. Just
everything has gotten so expensive that it's
become a challenge for many people. Absolutely.
Another thing is people ask me, you know, they
make fun of the British food and I tell them,
well, you know, one of the most popular things
in British food is Indian food. Oh, yeah. We,
you know, so much and it's hard to find good
Indian food in some parts of America. So that's
another thing I'm sure that, you know, a lot
of people miss if they know find themselves away
from indian culture is simply the amazing cuisine
that you guys have too yeah i thought you were
going to say fish and chips but but that's true
yeah indian food is really big i haven't been
there but i've heard i definitely want to visit
and try the local foods there yeah well i've
said this a lot if you go you know when i was
young i'd go to heathrow airport and it's all
cultures you know africans you know south asian
southeast asian i mean just from all over the
place and it's just this beautiful tapestry of
humanity that comes through and some are visiting
obviously some are on holiday but there's a lot
of people that that is part of of the uk you
know and i think that's the upside of colonization
i mean there's a lot of darkness to it but now
you know we have this beautiful diversity in
in britain and that includes obviously cultures
and cuisine and all the things so know the the
kind of fake uh projection that the uk is this
kind of area nation could not be further from
the truth absolutely absolutely and that's true
i mean if you if you go to um places in in the
middle east or or india and pakistan like you'll
you'll find the population to be so uniform you
kind of miss you know back home in america or
canada or uk because truly they're melting pots
and the fact that you see all the different ethnicities
backgrounds makes you a better in my opinion
a better person if you can you know if you're
not racist but um because you get you get to
learn so much you get to experience how to deal
with different people um and and i think that
just gives you so much more you know emotional
intelligence and just the ability to to really
be flexible with people yeah i've said this you
know when you when you deviate from a shared
humanity then differences become a threat And
what should happen is that we should see the
humanity within each other and then the differences
become nuances and they're interesting. So, you
know, the moment that you just put someone in
a pigeonhole, you miss that experience of actually,
you know, being interested in their culture.
Yeah, I like that. What about then career aspirations?
You mentioned some of the sports that you did.
What were you dreaming of becoming when you were
in the high school age? You know, I think we
all... Had the same, you know, athlete and astronaut,
you know, growing up. I just wasn't, I played
on the football team. I wasn't good enough. I
wasn't good enough at basketball. Just kind of
made it on the team, but that's it, you know.
So sports wasn't like something I would actually
pursue, even though I loved it. I kind of was
between law, engineering, and medicine. Medicine
because of my dad. And I have three aunts that
are doctors. And so growing up, you know, it's
kind of one of those things like, oh, I don't
want to be a doctor because my dad's a doctor
and my aunts are doctors. I want to do something
different. You know, my engineering because my
mom was an engineer and then lawyer, I just thought
would be kind of cool because they're all smart
and can, you know, have to deal with so many
different types of things and people. Right.
They're very people smart. And so I kind of like
that about the law profession. But as I grew
up, went through high school, I kind of realized
what I was good at. And I was good at like sciences.
I was good at biology. I was good at physiology.
And that kind of just stuck with me. And then
my mom, she was really pushing me to medicine,
to be honest with you, because she's like, it's
one of those fields where you're helping humanity.
And, you know, you're. Going to enjoy it regardless.
And at that time, you know, I was like, my mom
just taught me what to do. But I took my mom's
advice and, you know, looking back on it, I'm
very grateful I did. What was your father's specialty?
My dad's internal medicine, which is just the
standard doctor, so to speak, who takes care
of the patients in the hospital, kind of like
the quarterback of the hospital. So he works
at a rehab hospital in Boston. which takes care
of some of the sickest patients coming out of
Massachusetts General Hospital, which is one
of the biggest hospitals in Boston. This is always
interesting to ask, you know, as we look at the
health of the nation now and we see the corporate
side of medicine and, you know, like, for example,
is a great opportunity to underline this. You
know, we have this pandemic where the health
of the nation certainly. there's a great opportunity
to revisit that and be like, what are we doing
wrong with 70 % of our country is obese or overweight?
And so the kind of preventative proactive side
doesn't seem to be taught in medical school specifically
by a lot of people I've had on the show. When
you reflect back now from the training that you
had, how much training was there on diet, nutrition,
sleep, some of the pillars of health that we
know now? Yeah, that's funny that you say that
because I went to school in Kansas City, Missouri.
And the school, the medical school I went to,
University of Missouri, Kansas City, was actually
what was pumping out a lot of family medicine
doctors. So they were pretty heavy on primary
preventive care. And I would say I had quite
the opposite experience where we were really,
you know, advised to push our patients for better
diet, better lifestyle choices. Granted, this
was like, you know, I graduated medical school
in 2013. So things definitely have changed over
the last decade. But yeah, back then we were
definitely going to rural America, teaching them
dietary changes, just trying to maintain good
lifestyles, cessation of smoking, just the basic
things. So when you go through this training
period, were there any kind of aha moments once
you got out into the real world, treating actual
patients? Yeah, that is, I think every physician
who graduates medical school has to go through
that, right? You go to residency, you go to fellowship,
and then you're always under the protection of
your attendings, you know, your bosses, the faculty,
physicians who are kind of hovering over you,
making sure you're not going to make any mistakes,
making sure you're making the right decisions.
And any lawsuit that comes through. They're kind
of protecting you. The hospital system is protecting
you. And then the day you graduate, you know,
and you start taking care of your own patients,
you've done something a thousand times. And it's
just like, man, this first time by myself is
a different experience. You know, you just become
nervous. You're sweating bullets. And it's truly
a gargantuan task. And that lasts about six months
to 12 months before you kind of get back into
your confidence levels that you need. But, yeah,
I think the fact that, you know. There's no one
watching over you at that point. And patients
are kind of relying on you to the point they
even ask you, like, how many times have you done
this before? You're like, how do I answer this
question? Do I look that nervous to you? What
about the residency? You know, when it's been
interesting as I've really taken a deep dive
into the world of sleep medicine, realizing that
that's one of the massive underlying issues in
my community, I've started learning about all
kinds of things. the backstory of the surgical
residency that used to be these insane hours
was this one i think it's william halstead if
i got the name right and he you know was known
to be up for hours and hours that days and days
and so that kind of became the norm and i think
we're talking about the beginning of last century
but um turns out that he was a heroin and cocaine
addict so i'm pretty sure i could i could pull
some benders too if i was out of my mind so that's
one way to stay up so the way that we've always
done it isn't necessarily the right way i mean
you know the children used to work in factories
and go up chimneys back in the day How was your
residency experience? And again, have you seen
that evolve from the crazy stories of a few decades
ago? Yeah. So my dad, like I said, my dad was
a doctor. He was training during the time where
there was 48, 72 -hour calls. I mean, it's just
insane. Two to three days in the hospital, not
seeing your family. Obviously, it takes an emotional
toll. It takes a mental toll. It takes a physical
toll sleeping in the hospital. There's no sunlight
coming in there. And sometimes if you're in the
radiology department, especially, it's just like
it's a dungeon, basically. So, you know, when
I was in residency, there was no strict rules
about times except for a new 24 -hour rule. But
not everyone followed that rule. I luckily had
a good program director that followed the rule
to the T. And he was actually more of an advocate
to the residents than anyone in the hospital.
And it was awesome. He was just protecting us
in every way, shape, or form. If he had any trouble,
he would speak up on our behalf. And I can't
forget him. He's just been such an inspirational
leader to me. And just the way he led this program
of almost 50 residents, he treated us like his
children, just wanted us to succeed, wanted us
to really work hard and learn the most in the
four years that we were in residency. So, I mean,
I had the blessing of saying, I wasn't abused
in that sense. You know, that said, I do think
some specialties took advantage of it and, you
know, really worked the residents to the ground.
I mean, I think those residents are probably
better than what's happening now, which I think
is the opposite extreme where I would argue that
some residencies are just not giving their residents
enough hours and just not making it hard enough.
You know, it's going to the opposite extreme,
in my opinion. What made you choose radiology
as a specialty? Yeah, radiology to me was a means
to get into interventional radiology. So interventional
radiology is a specialty that not many people
know about, but they say. If you're ever hospitalized,
you won't be discharged until you meet an interventional
radiologist. And the interventional radiologist
does minimally invasive procedures through imaging.
So you have to be a radiologist to use that imaging,
to understand that imaging, to read that imaging,
to be able to do the procedure. And that's why
I did radiology. It was a means to get to this
really techie, advanced specialty that we kind
of abbreviate IR, interventional radiology. so
would that be using contrast and those kind of
things so you can see you know blood flow and
and issues within the body itself exactly so
i'm sure you know what an interventional cardiologist
does right they put stents in the heart uh for
people who are having heart attacks so i imagine
the interventional radiologist is the doctor
that does everything outside of the heart and
we also do different types of interventions whether
it's biopsies drainages for abscesses um cancer
treatments um all through minimally invasive
means amazing I had someone on the show a while
ago that was talking about AI and the conversation
initially was that the radiology profession might
be threatened by AI as far as reading x -rays,
etc. But then they were saying, well, no, it's
not like that. It's more of a second opinion
to make sure that we don't miss anything so we
can let AI read as well and then we can compare
and contrast and it's better for the patient.
What has been your experience with this developing
technology? Yeah, I think AI is more powerful
than we give credit to, and it probably can do
a lot more than we expect it can, especially
as the way AI is developing lately, it's not
linear, it's exponential. So yeah, I do think
that it's going to be something I'm going to
be looking out for in the next decade. We're
starting to use it in my institution right now,
and I could see the value, but it's also scary
because we're basically teaching our own. enemy
basically it's going to take over you know they
say that's going to take over our jobs i don't
think it's going to take over our jobs but i
do think there are going to be fewer radiologists
required because the ai one radiologist can read
five times more with that ai helping him or her
you know what i'm saying yeah yeah it's funny
when i did stunts i did stunts for years and
i worked in the terminator 2 show so all these
conversations about cyberdyne and all that stuff
like i used to play that and now here we are
you know and there's robots and there's drones
and there's ai and like oh okay this is this
is getting faster than i thought next thing we
are going to have you know cyberdyne systems
and robots chasing us around so i hope not all
right well then shifting away from that so we've
gone through your career talk to me about um
again the back story when it comes to know you
advocating for the palestinian people and you
know if you want to again as we hit we uh discuss
before we hit record if you want to even give
some some backstories some context before we
talk about your journey to gaza so i am uh i'm
a muslim i practice my faith um pretty religiously
and uh i respect people who follow their faith
or their principles pretty faithfully, because
I think we live in a time where it's hard to
find principled approaches. And to me, that's
the main thing. People who have morality, people
who live by principles, people who really value
ethics, to me, that's kind of how we should aspire
to be, essentially. And it doesn't necessarily
mean you have to be a Muslim or a Christian or
Jew. There's atheists who are... have better
morality than some Muslims and Christians and
Jews. So that's not what will get you to the
point of caring about humanity is my point. I
think just growing up, justice was also a big
thing to me. I told you I always wanted to be
a lawyer before medicine. And then even in medicine,
just being a just person is so important. as
you're being sometimes berated by a patient or
a patient's family, just how are you going to
deal with that anger? How are you going to deal
with that trauma that they're dealing with? And,
you know, we get trained during medical school
how to deal with difficult situations. And I
think part of that just helps you to kind of
focus on morality and justice and ethics. And,
you know, as time went on. And I got older and
started reading more about politics. I just realized
what kind of world we live in. Obviously, then
I started having kids. And now, thank God, I
have three kids. And I'm just realizing I want
my kids to see me as someone who stood up for
humanity at all times. I want them to be proud
of me. I want them to live in a world where it's
difficult to find what's right. And so I want
them to have someone. that they can look up to
and trust. So was this something that really
spawned out of the reaction to October 7th, or
was this prior to that? I mean, it goes prior.
I don't think the Israel -Palestine conflict
is what sparked my morality to really speak loud.
I think... you know coming from india for example
my parents talked about some of the experiences
they had you know like um when my grandfather
talks about his stories of them having to flee
to pakistan because um you know there was some
conflicts in india happening so it happened to
them too you know just having to leave as refugees
and then go to a new area and establish a new
life and um And it definitely didn't start October
7th. It's always been there. And then you read
about what happened in Bosnia. You hear about
what happened in Burma. You hear about what's
happening in Sudan and in the Congo. It's just
everywhere. You just see injustice everywhere.
You see violence everywhere. It makes you wonder,
what is behind all of this? And I don't think
it's a single answer. I think it's very complicated
because evil is multifaceted. But yeah, I just
couldn't just stay silent after what we saw these
last year and a half in terms of numbers, in
terms of the videos coming out. I mean, we can't
deny the fact that this is the first live stream
mass killing. And I myself will say the word
genocide as a physician who actually experienced
it firsthand as you'll get into. But yeah, I
just couldn't take it anymore. It was just too
much. violence that I was seeing firsthand on
my phone, which I've never actually seen before.
I've used this example with a few people that
have come on the show talking about the same
thing. I grew up with the IRA bombing the mainland.
And again, if I look back in the history of the
conflict with Britain and the Irish, again, it
makes no sense. We're all the same people, full
stop. But you can see the kind of origin story
of the oppression. But they were bombing the
mainland, you know, shopping malls and those
kind of things. And when October 7th happened,
which was horrific and a lot of innocent people
were killed, I know some of the stories were
exaggerated, but a lot of innocent people were
killed regardless. It to me was like, you know,
a mainland bombing by the IRA in the 1980s, you
know, because I literally had to sweep under
the car with a mirror. We were right next to
a military base when I was young on my farm.
And so. That will be like the British then going
in and destroying the entire city of Belfast.
And the rest of the world wouldn't tolerate that.
You know what I mean? So this is where I started
going, OK, what the hell is going on? Is initially
there was a reaction to October 7th and be like,
oh, God, this is awful. You know, this conflict
has been going on for so long. And now there's
even more innocent people being killed. But it
didn't stop. And it got worse and worse and worse.
And then, as you said, depending on your ability
to lean into humanity or whether you were politicized
in one way or the other, whatever it was, the
numbers became irrefutable. When the number of
children that were killed were in the tens of
thousands, now you can't say that's collateral.
There was a point where it really crossed a moral
threshold and you realize that the reaction to
it was not. you know, a military response. It
was far different than that. So that's when,
you know, Thayer and Alan Shabarro and some of
these people came on early because I was disgusted.
Because as you said, as a human, as someone with
empathy who does a job where you literally would
die to try and help someone, how can you look
at that and not go, that is wrong? Full stop.
End of story. So as you're watching this, you
know, At what point did you start seeing the
inequity and this was a different response and
then kind of walk us through what made you decide
to actually get on a plane yourself? So October
7th, I feel like people really don't know what
was happening before that. And I know this gets
people in a lot of trouble to talk about, but
the reality is there have been so many October
7th in the world. And in Israel -Palestine conflict
on both sides in the past, you know, decades.
So I truly felt October 7th was inevitable. You
know, and we know October 7th like the back of
our hand at this point that day. But, you know,
between Iraq and Iran, there's like 200 people
bombed in a mosque. You know, that doesn't become
a date. In Pakistan, you have conflicts happening
all the time. 50 people bombed, children and
women killed. That doesn't become a date. So
obviously, just being in the West, we have this
media that's pushing this conflict more than
other conflicts. So that's one point. Another
point is just in the Israel -Palestine conflict,
I mean, it really doesn't take much digging to
understand that this has been a decades -old
conflict. And it really does not start on October
7th, no matter how much. the media will tell
you, just read up on yourself. I mean, it's really
not challenging to open a book, open up a website.
And nowadays, ChatGPT or one of these other AI
agents, you know, just ask and figure it out
yourself. And you'll come up with the same conclusion
that many others who have researched it come
up with. I'm not Palestinian, but I like to do
my own research. As a physician, you know, we're
always taught primary evidence, you know, evidence
-based medicine. What decision did you make that
decision off of? What paper did you read that
allows you to give some medication over that
medication? Why is that procedure indicated in
this patient with this disease? You look at the
papers, you look at primary evidence. So to me,
I've always been like that. I've always liked
to go back to the sources and really see what's
going on. I don't really take what people tell
me at face value unless I see it myself, right?
And I think that's important to some extent.
I think it's important to trust people, too.
Don't get me wrong. But you have to trust the
right people. Absolutely. So what, again, through
your eyes, there's all these back and forth.
Like I said, it goes back. I actually saw, and
this was an Instagram post. So again, I'd have
to take a deep dive into the history. But it
was like the 1910s that some British, I forget,
it was an Earl or someone, you know, was... given
the ability to actually dish out Palestinian
land to, I forget if it was specifically Israel
or other people too. But I mean, so, you know,
my forefathers, you know, the damage that's been
done through colonization. I mean, you can just
keep going back and back and back and back. And
there's this, the origin story becomes another
origin story. And, you know, like Afghanistan,
you know, you've got our conflict and you go
back and it's the Russians. And then, you know,
this is, you know, it never ends. At what point
did you realize that post -October 7th this was
different, though? This was a different response
now? And then talk to me, like I said, about
what made you decide to say, right, I'm going
to go over there, even though we're talking 2025
now. Yeah, so I knew there was going to be an
asymmetric response after October 7th. That said,
I did not expect what we're seeing now. I really
did not expect this full, all -out genocide.
by almost all accounts except legal. So what
I mean by that is, you know, International Court
of Justice is the only organization that can
legally make that binding decision that this
is a genocide. But NGOs, physicians, people,
you know, who experienced it can non -legally
say that it's a genocide. So I truly do. But,
you know, at that time, I was like, oh, man,
so many people are going to die now. You know,
Israel is going to really do their, I think they
have something called the Dahia Doctrine. where
they have something called asymmetric retaliation.
And so I knew that they were going to do something
along those lines. I didn't know what. Maybe
1 ,000 people die, 2 ,000 people die. But it
just kept going up and up and up. And it just
every day, every week, every month just got worse
and worse. And the pictures coming out just got
more disgusting. And it just didn't stop. And
you just see the progression just. you know,
unstoppable. And we're like, okay, the UN is
going to stop it now. And then you see the UN
Security Council, you know, didn't go through,
the vote didn't go through because America said
no. And every other country said yes to a ceasefire.
And then, you know, you hear about negotiations
happening. Oh, there's almost a ceasefire. Oh,
and then there's a ceasefire. So you get happy,
but then they got broken. And it's just like,
you know, at what point is this, you know, how
are the civilians going to get through this,
you know? And it came to a point where I was
like, Man, I wish I was a trauma surgeon. I wish
I was a ER physician because I would go over
there and help. And I say that to myself, but
I don't know if I actually would have at that
time. But then someone actually reached out to
me who had gone. He was an orthopedic surgeon.
And he's like, hey, this opportunity might come
up where you can actually go. Are you interested?
And for me, it was like, absolutely, no doubt.
I didn't even consult my wife or anything at
that point when I said that to him. Obviously,
I knew I would have to ask my wife and my mom,
my dad. But to him, I just said, absolutely,
like, tell me how I'm going to get there and
we'll take the next step. You know, we'll figure
it out. So walk me through that then. Yeah, so
I was actually on a plane back from like a medical
conference in New Orleans. And I got this text
from him. I was on the in -plane Wi -Fi, you
know, nowadays. And I got this text from my good
buddy. He was an orthopedic surgeon. We went
to medical school together. And he's like, hey,
you know, this opportunity came up. Are you interested?
And I said, absolutely. Like, tell me the details.
So I landed and it was nighttime. I told my wife,
hey, let's put the kids to sleep and let's go
have some coffee downstairs at night, you know,
which usually means like we need to talk about
something. And so she's like, so what's going
on? And I was like, oh, man, this opportunity
came up. It's an opportunity of a lifetime. And
I'm just, I don't know how to tell you. And then
she just interrupted me. She's like, it's Gaza,
isn't it? And I was like, yeah. Thank God. And
she knew, she figured it out because I had just
been talking about Gaza. To me, it was one of
those things, I can go to work and treat patients
and have a nice lunch and have my latte, but
not talking about Gaza just felt empty. It was
almost like I'm enjoying my life while people
were being annihilated over there. you know,
on the daily, I just felt odd. So you can ask
any of my colleagues for the last year and a
half. I just bring up Gaza. I'm like, hey, you
guys following? What's going on? Like, you know,
what do you think? I just try to make conversation
about it. How was it received? Because it's been
interesting at the beginning. You know, I mean,
I even had my social media. account closed. And
supposedly it was for copyright, but there was
no warning, nothing. It just all of a sudden
went away. The appeals never went anywhere. And
I was, again, not even putting a lot out there,
just as a human being saying this is wrong and
having guests and sharing videos if it was pertinent.
And even the British, my home country, the BBC,
everything if they were talking about Gaza was
Hamas led and then it would go to the thing.
And then, you know, here we are with America
and we're literally arming, you know, this genocide.
We are providing the weapons for it. So I found
it disgusting early on the apathy, the lack of
courage to stand up and say this is wrong. And
it's not anti -Semitic to say this is wrong.
A lot of Jewish people are disgusted by this.
This isn't in the name of the religion. This
is a certain group of tyrants that are doing
this for money and power, not for the greater
good of them. in their religion or their culture.
And so it's great to see it shifted now, but
it took so long. It was just nauseating, the
lack of courage, you know, for so, so long. So,
you know, when you were talking about this early
on, what was the reception with your community
at the time? I actually had difficulty getting
to people. The first week I myself was like,
oh man, I don't know how to respond to this.
Like what's going to happen? You know, because
October 7th, you know, there's no, you know,
there's nothing you can say. And, and then a
week after that, I think it just being clear,
like, you know, I think it was a week or two,
you know, there was already 1000 civilians dead.
A lot of them babies and kids. And it just became
clear that that in itself would have been enough,
right? Like, let's stop now. But I just kept
going. So at that point, at a point where I just
realized, like, okay, it's getting out of hand
is when I started talking. When I went to me,
it was clear. Even though at that time it wasn't
clear that the beheaded babies news was false,
even though, you know, the alleged rapes was
false. And we found that out later by legitimate
sources. I didn't I couldn't defend that because
I had no primary sources to defend it. So at
that time, I was just trying to focus on the
civilian death that was already happening at
that point, which was in the thousands. And I
just said, hey, like, you know, if we lived in
the time of the Holocaust. We say we would be
on the right side of history. We would defend
the oppressed. We would speak up for the voiceless.
I definitely would say that I would do that.
Right. But if given the chance, would I actually
do it? And to me, this was it. Like, I'm going
to speak up for the oppressed. I'm going to speak
up for the voiceless. And I'm going to share
these people's stories to my community. To the
point, I think maybe in November, as a Palestinian
in our community, we asked her to make some sweets
like baklava and whatnot. And I took it to work.
And I sat everyone down. And I used the opportunity
to kind of explain the conflict and the history,
1948, 1967, and how that resulted in October
7th and to what's going on in Gaza now. And at
the end, I said, the person who made this is
a Palestinian. And she had one request that I
share with you while I'm talking to you. And
they're like, what is it? And they said that
Palestinians are humans too. And I just... That
was it. That was my message. And they just started
crying, you know? Yeah. I mean, that's the problem.
You know, when you create a boogeyman, you dehumanize.
And you hear so many of the veterans that have
been on here. I ask about, you know, the atrocities
that, you know, not tell me the worst thing that
you saw, but, you know, some of the lack of humanity
in some of these war zones where they were protecting
the, you know, the local people. And I talk to
them about kindness and compassion. And, you
know, the way that they talk about the Afghan
people, the Iraqi people in certain areas, they're
like, yeah, they were beautiful. You know, go
in and the dad would be fixing the car and mom
would be making dinner and they'd always offer
us food. And it could have been, you know, Baghdad
or it could have been Detroit. I mean, it's the
same exact thing. Yeah. But what's happened here
is, you know, the boogeyman Hamas, Hamas, Hamas,
October 7th, October 7th, to the point where
even though there's all this footage of children
being pulled out of rubble, you know, and screaming
parents holding their limp toddlers, that that
still would not break through the politicization
that was being sold to the people. And if you
dare have any empathy, then you must be a bleeding
heart liberal or whatever the term was. And so,
I mean, it's turning now, but it was disgusting
to see. And I've said this comment, you know,
my grandfather fought in World War II. Those
incredible men and women. said, I'm going to
do something. This is wrong. And where is that
voice now? They would be disgusted in our generation.
Absolutely. That's a good point. So you got this
text, you've had this conversation with your
co -workers. How does that lead you to actually
flying over there yourself? So I was really scared
that I would be denied. So there's about a 75
% rejection rate at the Jordan -Israel border
to get into Gaza from doctors. So I really didn't
tell anyone except for one coworker. I have like
20 partners at work and I told one of them who's
in charge of scheduling and he knows how, how
passionate I was. So I called him up and I said,
Hey man, something came up and it means everything
to me. I need two weeks off, like two additional
weeks off, you know? And he's like, Oh man, like
I know if it means that much to you, just consider
it off. You know, which to me was like the most.
amazing answer I could have heard at that point
because I was really scared he wouldn't give
me the time off and then I was like man like
he's so nice and I had to share you know so I
told him about the possibility of going to Gaza
and how I need to get some medical supplies and
how I'm not sure if I'm going to be let in so
if I'm not I'll come back to work immediately
And, yeah, at that point, I just had some consultations
with my mom, my dad, my siblings, some really
close friends to see what their opinions were.
Some doctors that I know had been to Gaza before
this conflict and during the conflict. And I
just got many different people's opinions. And
at the end of the day, I just realized, like,
man, this is a conversation I need to have with
God and see what's in my heart. And I know in
my heart I want to go. I want to help. You know,
the woman, the children, the elderly, the men,
the fathers. And it came to a point where I was
just like, even if I go there and help one person,
I'll be happy. And that was kind of my decision.
So what was some of the supplies that you were
trying to get over there? So I'm an interventional
radiologist. It's kind of a techie resource heavy
specialty. It's not like a trauma surgeon where
you just need a blade and some sutures. And it
requires infrastructure. It requires an x -ray
machine, a fluoroscopy machine. So I was planning
on doing trauma cases, some cancer cases, some
pediatric cases, and some women's fibroid cases.
And so I had to get the proper equipment to do
those cases while in Gaza. And the way I knew
I needed to do these procedures is I got into
contact with one of the local interventional
radiology doctors in Gaza. There's only two in
the entire... population of 2 .1 million. Just
for comparison, in Houston, the population is
about 2 .3 million, I believe. There's probably,
you know, two, three hundred interventional radiology
doctors in Houston. So two, it's just not enough,
right? So when I told them I was coming, they
got really excited. They told me, oh, we need
this, we need that. We'll try to set up. patients
for you. So they actually brought patients to
their clinic before I even got there and said,
we're going to set you up with this American
doctor who's coming and he's going to do your
procedure in two months. And so they were really
excited, you know, because there's cancers being
ignored there. There's pediatric diseases that's
being ignored there. And there's women's diseases
that's being ignored there because the trauma
is just overwhelming the hospitals. And there's
no one to focus on the chronic care issues. So
I've heard several people talking about the problems
at the border, whether they're being turned away
completely, whether equipment is not allowed
through. You get on this flight, you land. Can
you walk me through the ability to actually even
get across? So from Chicago, you take a flight
to Amman, which is about a 12 to 14 hour flight.
You stay in a hotel. So you have to be there
the night before you're scheduled to entry. um
so you get there at night or whatever the day
before and then you get an email 12 hours before
your scheduled arrival into israel okay and you
basically get an excel document that's has your
name and it's either green or red and so if you're
red you just fly right back home you can't do
anything um or you stick around in jordan and
just kind of enjoy jordan um but if you're green
then you're good to go so I would say 22 of us
applied to this trip and some people got some
denial letters. Six of us got in. And even when
we were in Amman, some people had just landed
and they were going right back. One guy was from
the UK. He was actually an Egyptian who, you
know, he's a citizen of the UK and he's an ENT
surgeon. So he felt really, you know, he was
just. devastated. He had all this medical equipment
he was planning on bringing in. He was in contact
with some of the local ENT doctors. So before
he left, he came up to me and was like, hey,
man, can you take some of this with you and give
it to some of these surgeons that I was supposed
to meet up? And so I agreed. He was a better
packer than I was. So I took some of his gear
and he helped me sit on the luggage so I can
fit more stuff in. And yeah, that's it. So once
you get the green light, you go to sleep. You
wake up really early in the morning. There's
a bus waiting for you that takes you to the Jordanian
border, which took us about four hours, four
or five hours to get through. And then there's
a bus that takes you from the Jordanian customs
to the Israeli customs. That takes about 30 minutes.
And then you get off the bus and then your bags
have to be rechecked. You have to be rechecked
on the Israel side. That takes about three or
four hours. And then now at this point. There's
a separation. Some of the Palestinians are going
to the West Bank. Some of the Israelis are going
to Israel. And then the NGOs and physicians are
going to Gaza. So it's like a trifurcation. So
those of us who are going to Gaza are waiting,
all of us to meet from different organizations
to be done with security. And then there's an
IDF, Israeli Army convoy that takes all the buses
from the NGOs into Gaza. And that's about...
um a two three hour drive from the from the border
to the gaza checkpoint and we entered through
the kissifum checkpoint so by the time we got
there it was nighttime uh and i remember as our
bus was going into the kissifum army checkpoint
all you could see it was really eerie it was
dark you just see these really high intensity
stadium lights kind of illuminating this parking
lot in the distance you can see some tanks parked
you can see just soldiers with their uh with
their with their weapons on them And we sat on
our bus for an hour and then they told us we
can switch over to the Gaza buses. So now the
Gaza buses came and we get off and we take our
luggage and go from one bus to the other. And
then we sit on that bus for another two hours
in this parking lot with just soldiers kind of
monitoring the situation. And then after two
hours sitting on that bus, then we're given the
green light to actually go into Gaza. So if there
was no borders or checkpoints, three hour journey
from Amman to Gaza took us about 14 hours. Crazy.
And were there any issues getting the equipment
across? Yeah, so that's a good question. We were
lucky in that we got a lot of our medical equipment
in. We took some ultrasounds. We took some, you
know, like I told you, I'm an interventional
radiologist. So I took some of my equipment in.
My colleagues also did. Our main thing was just
bringing in food. We went in June 2025 and the
starvation. problem was really just taking off
um and obviously now it's july and august and
the situation has just got exponentially worse
so yeah as of june we were really just trying
to bring in you know food high protein uh kind
of things peanut butter uh baby formula and so
we got lucky and and and uh yeah i i will say
we were team 36 for the organization we went
through and we told team 37 to bring in baby
formula And Team 37's baby formula all got confiscated.
And I actually asked why to some of the physicians
who were on that team. And they were told that
it's too much and it has to go through the health
ministry if it's that much. This is when literally
we've seen the videos that the children are starving,
infants are starving to death, and you are turning
away baby formula. Yeah, it's not that I saw
videos. I saw the baby starving. myself with
my own eyes i even so us as team 36 we thought
if there's one thing people will have humanity
for no matter how much people hate each other
it's babies right premature babies at that and
incubators and so we went to the pediatric icu
and talked to the local you know icu doctors
and we're like okay we're gonna do this we're
americans we speak english well we're gonna get
baby formula into gaza And we did our best. You
know, some media picked us up and I thank them
for that. And we got a big social media push
for Baby Formula. And then we were disheartened
when we learned that Team 37's Baby Formula got
confiscated. So that was pretty frustrating.
So you're going there, as you mentioned, it was
dark. You know, talk to me about what you saw,
especially, you know, when the sun comes up as
far as, you know, Gaza in June 2025. So as we
enter Gaza. With our local Gazan bus driver,
we drive away from these soldiers in this super
militarized checkpoint that basically is this
entry between two different worlds. On the back
of us, we're leaving Israel. And in front of
us is Gaza. And we all know what we're going
to see, which is absolute destruction. Problem
is it's so dark, it's really hard to see anything.
So all we can really see is what the lights of
the car illuminate. uh for it's dirt roads there's
no asphalt anymore it's all been torn up by the
tanks and whatnot um and as we're looking around
we're really trying to see everything we can
see our adrenaline's pumping and we just see
you know rubble buildings destroyed neighborhoods
demolished you can see almost like kids toys
between floors of the the concrete just you know
like a seesaw you know really colorful blue and
red toys that are just like between the rubble
um And we can't see it that well, but you can
kind of see where it's making turns. And on the
ground, there's like food. There's literally
this like sacks of rice and flour that have been
burst open. And so we asked our local Gazan driver,
like, what is this? And it's like when the trucks
come in, some of the food falls off and anyone
who tries to get it will be shot. So these are
what we call red zones that humans are not allowed
to go in the red zone unless explicit permission
has been given. by the Israeli military. So that's
how we were able to travel on this road because
we were waiting for the two hours to get a green
light from the Israeli military to be done with
their, whatever mission they were doing at that
time. Was there any. the fear amongst you and
the people that you're traveling with just based
on the fact that, you know, the ethics didn't
seem to be followed in so many cases. And we've
obviously, you know, one of the big ones for
us, my community was all those firefighters and
paramedics that were executed not too long ago.
You know, what was the fear mitigation? Because
you're going on the trust that the Israelis are
going to do the right thing at that point. Yeah.
So again, there were six of us, four Americans
and one Jordanian and one Algerian slash French.
So I was the most optimistic, I would say. And
I was like, they're not going to kill an American
physician. It just, it would make zero sense
for them to do that. And everyone else was more
like kind of historic and realistic in that they're
like, well, it's happened before the Al Jazeera
American. A journalist was shot with a sniper.
The World Food Program NGOs were targeted with
the drone and they died. And, you know, there's
been a lot of international people who have actually
died. And there are always obviously some logistical
mistake that comes out. So I was like, yeah,
I mean, we could die with the mistake, I guess.
um one of our colleagues he was going back and
forth should he pay for like an extra life insurance
policy which was like super expensive eventually
we just convinced him to do it because he was
he was talking about it for so long and um no
but the fear was real uh i think i was just a
little bit overly up like i was overly hopeful
that nothing would happen so you're seeing guys
are going to unfold through headlights you know
what What was the difference the next day when
you had daylight to kind of, you know, reveal
the magnitude of it? Yeah, so the bus took us
through the rubble, through the roads to a camp
called Mawasi Refugee Camp. It's basically where
one third of Gazans live. It's in Khan Yunus.
And the hospital nearby is called Nasser Hospital.
So we weren't allowed to go straight to the hospital.
We went to a safe house with our NGO. And again,
it's nighttime. We can't see anything. So we
were dead tired. So we went upstairs into the
apartment. They gave us some food. They apologized
for not having their genuine, authentic cuisine.
They basically just gave us hummus and pita bread.
And it was so good, you know, just having absolutely
nothing. That was so delicious. We went to sleep.
We woke up around sunrise and then we looked
out the balcony. And it's just tense as far as
you can see until the ocean, you know, the Mediterranean.
You look left, there's tents. You look right,
there's tents. You look forward, there's tents
up to the sea. You see some kites in the air,
and that really surprised me. Kids are going
to be kids. They're going to always try to have
fun. I thought that was kind of beautiful. I
look down, and that's the main road, which is
basically a dirt road. There's donkeys pulling
equipment here and there. There's cars, but some
of the cars are not working, so the people are
pushing the cars. Yeah, you just see people kind
of waking up. and looking for something to do
you know some people are going to work at the
hospital which is pretty much the only work left
everything else i feel like it's like almost
volunteering trying to clean up so yeah the scene
um the scene was really amazing i hate to use
that word uh as an american who's never done
a medical mission before was never really seen
this kind of destruction It was truly eye -opening,
and it took me a little bit to understand what
was actually happening. And in the distance,
as we're looking out, still sunrise, you kind
of hear bombs in the distance about every 30
minutes. It was very odd, you know, it was very
odd just not knowing what that meant. And that's
my first time ever hearing a bomb. They had talked
about the systematic demolition. And you said
about the roads, for example, there's videos
of, you know, them literally being dug up to
remove the infrastructure. We know that, you
know, hospitals are targeted, schools are targeted,
you know, which again, when you're looking at
the Geneva conference, convention, you know,
is completely against all ethics anyway. You've
got this massive tents, you know, were you able
to see that just, you know, the absolute destruction
of the Gazan city itself? There was no city.
That's what was sad for me. I wanted to see what
the Gazans lived like before. And if you look
at pictures, it looks like any other American
city. There's buildings, there's roads, there's
flowers, there's architecture, there's restaurants,
there's shawarma shops. You look at those pictures,
there's mosques, there's churches. And then you
look at outside the balcony, it's just tents,
tarps. And I'm not talking about tents that you
get from Costco or one of these fancy tents.
You're talking about just... four sticks, four
metal poles, and then some sort of a sheet that
connects them. And the only thing between your
neighbor and your family is the same sheet that
belongs to you and them. It's not even two sheets,
it's one sheet. And I just realized like, holy
moly, I can't comprehend this. I know this in
my head that third world countries are third
world countries, but this was just hard to swallow.
and know that people were being killed even in
these tents, which is a green zone. You know,
there's not supposed to be any killing in the
green zone. One of the things that really stuck
out when Thera spoke the first time was he went
to Jerusalem first. And he said there he saw,
you know, Jews and Muslims and Christians all
praying side by side. And he said everyone was
getting on. And then you go through these massive
checkpoints at the time. And, you know, I think
it was Rapha that he went when he was there.
And he said, you know, it was a completely different
world. And that's what's so mind blowing is that,
you know, that humanity existed outside of these
gates. And then, you know, here you have these
Palestinian people that are just being, you know,
eradicated their homes, everything. It's kind
of like the some of the World War Two stories.
And when the most recent book I wrote, there
are examples where they literally killed. Every
man, woman, child demolished all the houses and
even rerouted the river that used to go through
the town to remove any essence of that. And that
seems exactly what's going on here. Wow. Yeah,
I mean, that's the scary thing is that history
repeats itself. And I think I heard someone saying
something that really stuck with me that one
thing we learn from history is that we don't
learn from history. Absolutely. I think this
is the thing. Even if you look, let's go back
to our country for a second. The deliberate division,
the deliberate fear mongering, the removal of
books, all these kind of things, it's lending
to that. And the reason behind all the atrocities
in history is a small group of people that crave
power and money. That's it. slavery, you know,
you name it. Any horrible thing that's happened
in our history hasn't been an entire country
saying, oh, we're all on board with this. It
starts with a few horrendous human beings. And
then you add apathy in and fear mongering. And
all of a sudden, you know, this is allowed to
happen. And here we are again in 2025, you know,
only 80 years after, you know, for example, we
dropped the bomb on Hiroshima, which is another
horrendous event. So we are not learning. And
then when these things are happening, we're not
just not learning, we're turning our head, which
is even more disgusting. You know, I think yourself,
James, and probably many of the soldiers, the
Marines, the firefighters, the police officers
that you've interviewed, and many of your other
guests probably are the type that if they see
an injustice happening on the street, they're
going to step up. But majority of the population
is just going to walk right by. And there's a
phenomenon where the more people watching an
incident, the less likely an individual is actually
to help if there's like someone dying on the
street in the park, you know. And so that's kind
of how I feel like the world. Everyone knows
what's going on. But very few people are actually
willing to step up to the plate, talk about it,
you know, do something. And I feel like that's
where we are in this world. Not just with the
Israel Gaza conflict, but everywhere. Within
it's in our own backyard. I feel like there's
so many differences within people nowadays. But
I still hold on to my old school principles.
If there's something wrong with someone, I'm
going to help them up. And I feel like that's
so basic. That should be our baseline humanity.
Absolutely. Well, you talked about seeing kind
of like the 10 ,000 foot view as far as the sprawling
tents. Let's talk about the people now. What
did you start seeing, you know, when you started
treating people? And then let's talk about the
starvation that's going on as well. Yeah, so
we got to that, you know, after sunrise, we ate
breakfast. Again, they fed us food that they
don't have. Like they actually just sacrificed
their meals for us, you know. And we didn't really
comprehend the situation on the ground that first.
few hours. In retrospect, I wouldn't have eaten.
So we got to the hospital in the morning and
they're giving us a tour, kind of explaining
where we're going to stay. We're going to stay
in the call room for the next two weeks. There's
a guy's sleeping area. There's a woman's sleeping
area. There's a common area. We get food. We
can hang out. We can watch some TV. There's a
balcony that kind of has a nice view of everything
going on outside. And, you know, then we got,
we introduced ourselves to the local doctors
and we find out what we can help, where we can.
involve ourselves. And one thing I realized is
the doctors there are so tired. They themselves
don't have anything to eat. The responsibilities
are so intense. It's not just taking care of
your patients. Right after you take care of your
patients and you go home, you're going home to
a tent. And it's your responsibility as a man
to go find food. And then it's your responsibility
as a man to find some firewood so that you can
go home and your wife can make some food for
the family and kids. And so... In the next morning,
you brush off the sand off your head, your hair,
your clothes, and wear the clothes that were
drying on some line on the tent, and then come
back to work and rinse and repeat every single
day. And work there is so much more intense than
what we know as work. For example, in the ER,
some of our local ER doctors that came with us,
they were like, oh, we're going to do eight or
12 -hour shifts, right? Oh, we'll do... 12 hours
on, 12 hours off. That's kind of the standard
here. The local just laughed. They're like, you
won't last four hours. It was almost like, okay,
let's challenge this, right? We have this like
American mentality where we can work our butts
off. And so, yeah, it was true. The intensity
of the trauma was just too much. Physically too
much, mentally too much, emotionally too much.
It was awful. And the only way I can describe
it to you, is take the worst trauma center in
America in terms of the sheer volume of patients
and then multiply that by like 100. And I mean
that. I mean like literally multiply that by
100 in terms of the patients coming in. In America,
we have our mass shootings here and there, and
it does happen, but not every day. And that's
where it just takes this. mental toll that makes
no sense. And so, you know, it's Saturday, Sunday
is the day one and day two that we're there.
The fire alarm goes off in the ER. And that's
our first experience, what we call them MCI,
mass casualty incident. And it basically is just
a, it tells everyone in the hospital, hey, any
physician who's available, come down to the emergency
room. There's a mass casualty event and we need
all the help we can get. So we go down there
not knowing what to expect, and there's already
just hundreds of patients littered on the grounds.
And I'm not even exaggerating. You can go on
social media and search Nassar Hospital MCI,
and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.
There's not even a place to put your foot between
patients without your boot or your shoe getting
bloody. And your family member is just in chaos
trying to figure out. where their family members
are, where their children are. You have doctors
trying to figure out, you know, which patient
to see next. And it's just like, there's no,
you know, there's no like way to understand what
you're supposed to do. So you just go down to
a patient, you see if their heart's beating,
you see if they're breathing, you move on to
the next patient. And it's just this assembly
line. And that goes on for about four hours.
Okay. And at the end of that four hours, you
just want nothing to do with medicine anymore.
You just want to like sit back and just look
at the sky, take a deep breath and wonder what
the hell's going on here. Well, I think that's
the thing, you know, with my profession, with
your profession, if we have some massive event
like that, yes, the initial hospital, the initial
responders, you know, are going to be overwhelmed
for a bit. but there are more people coming,
local departments, other hospitals, you know,
the military, you know, the federal response.
But in this case, none of those people are allowed
in. So, you know, the people that you're working
alongside, and please correct me if I'm wrong,
those are the only people that are there to treat
people. Yeah, we are not, we didn't go there
to say we're better physicians. We went there
to give the few physicians who are there some
respite, some relief. Like you said, because
no one's coming to relieve them. There's no special
forces. There's no backup units. There's no on
-call physician that's going to save the day.
It's them. They have to work their shift without
food, without clean drinking water. There's no
AC in there in summertime. You're sweating your
butt off. It's awful. And we were lucky in that
we had our snacks. in our bags upstairs so we
can just go and take a break if we wanted to,
right? But the locals didn't have that. What
about the spectrum of patients that you were
getting? Again, the message we've had for a long
time is, oh, this was a Hamas, you know, combatant,
Hamas combatant, but that doesn't seem to match
the videos that were, you know, coming out. So
you had a perfect, you know, boots on the ground
perspective. Were these military age men only
coming through or was it a spectrum of ages and
sexes? Yeah, so I always wonder how to answer
this. So first of all, we saw zero combatants.
I don't even know how you would define a combatant.
Are they wearing military relief gear? Do they
come in with a weapon? Do they come in with a
knife? Like what defines a combatant, right?
And then number two is everyone we talked to
was coming from the aid sites, the Gaza Humanitarian
Foundation, GHF aid sites. And that's where majority...
of these mass trauma incidents were coming from.
And then outside of that, we were seeing patients
who were being shot getting water, who were being
shot getting, sitting in their tents by quadcopters.
So back to your question, I don't know how to
answer from a legitimately point of view, how
do I answer that question that was this patient
a Hamas person? I have no idea. How would I know,
right? But no, there was no indication of combatants
of Hamas in the hospital. Well, I think I guess
the other side of that question, the reason I'm
asking that is from the videos, we're seeing
infants, we're seeing toddlers, we're seeing
elementary school ages, we're seeing elderly
women. So you're telling me that all those were
members of Hamas. Like, of course, if there is
a resistance, there are going to be people amongst
that that may be part of that. But if you're
talking about over 20 ,000 children now. How
can you turn around and say, oh, but Hamas? Like,
no, there's a certain point. So that's, you know,
that's from the boots on the ground as far as
I'm not talking about some of the men. But I
mean, you know, were you seeing all this, you
know, these innocent civilians? And I would argue
at least no one can argue that a young child
and maybe an elderly woman is not going to be
a Hamas combatant. So that alone, you know, debunks
that whole myth. So I would say, let's just say,
for example, one of the MCIs, 400 patients came
in over that course of that MCI. I would say
15 % approximately were children, 15 % women,
15 % women, I mean, sorry, elderly, and then
the rest of the 55 % men. Okay, now within the
men, you have very young men, and then you have
elderly men, right? and that's the thing i don't
want to say that i feel like our western populations
our western colleagues might think oh man they
might be hamas you know but dude these these
guys were just getting food for their families
if you were in if you were in gaza you would
be getting the aid you're the strongest male
of the family you are going to walk 10 kilometers
to the aid site and you're going to take that
25 kilogram bag which is 55 60 pounds put it
on your shoulder walk another 10 kilometers back
you're the young man of the family you're going
to do that right so i feel like it doesn't we
don't do it justice just by saying children and
women and elderly because guess what the men
are all just men like you and me just trying
to make a living they're trying to survive they're
trying to feed their families we can't just all
lump them as possible compatents and as a statement
like that so that's what kind of bothers me when
people kind of even ignore the men because they
were the ones 55 of the er was loaded with young
men trying to get food for their families and
we say oh but you know they're not as innocent
as the children or they're not as innocent as
a woman and elderly you know yeah and i agree
i think the example again would be let's go back
to belfast you know we're flattening the entire
city well that's the mechanics and the doctors
and the accountants and the teachers and the
firefighters and the police officers none of
whom are ira members so i agree 100 but for me
it's like even if you pretended that every single
you know military age male was hamas which it
makes no sense whatsoever it still doesn't excuse
all the other things. So to say, oh, it's because
of this, it's like, there's no way. That does
not make any sense. Of course, there are resistance
fighters. Of course, some horrible things are
done by Hamas as well. War is disgusting. And
like I said, I experienced that, not personally,
but... on you know my homeland when i was growing
up as a young boy and the irish people experienced
horrible things on their side too so i think
it's just more to make the point that you know
i think you it's great that you've underlined
that because this this is the reality that of
all those men you know most of whom are just
trying to simply you know keep that roof over
their head and try and forage for some food for
their family i can't tell you how many young
men came in with their family members, and they
stopped when they saw us American doctors. And
they're like, oh, can we have a selfie? And then
we asked them, like, where are you coming from?
And they say, oh, the GHF aid sites. And, you
know, in my head, I'm like, oh, I wonder if he's
telling the truth or not. So I asked them straight
up. I was like, dude, do you have any pictures
of while you were there? Yeah, and a lot of them
took selfies with the American soldiers, the
mercenaries. And I was like, dude, isn't that
dangerous? They're like, oh, it's dangerous if
you do it with the Israeli army, but the Americans
are pretty cool about it. so i thought that was
really interesting in in some of them i even
keep in touch with today and uh to me that was
just proof they're just normal dudes uh trying
to bring food home to their family and they're
at the hospital because one of their loved ones
just died you know um yeah but you know i actually
asked a lot of people on the ground they told
us not to talk about politics while we were there
but i just couldn't help myself but i asked a
lot of the people i was like you know what is
the story with hamas like what is your opinion
and i got i'll tell you i just like in america
if you asked you know, some political question
in America, you're going to get an answer, a
different answer from everyone, right? So similar
to there, I got a different answer from everyone.
Some people absolutely hated them. Some people
said that what happened October 7th was the wrong
decision. Some people said they're going to support
them through and through. Some people said that,
you know, it was inevitable. It had to happen
at some point anyway. So it just happens to happen.
It happens during our lifetime. I mean, you got
every answer. And I thought that was kind of
interesting just to see what the local population
thought. And I think at this point, people actually
support them as a resistance more than anything,
just because they basically have no more hope.
They're like, well, we might as well die trying,
die resisting. We're all going to die anyways.
And I can get into that, but I would say 100
% of the population there is depressed. Majority
are probably suicidal. And I've talked to many
healthcare workers there who actively told me
they're suicidal. very private conversations
and uh but they follow their faith to the to
the level that they would never commit suicide
but they have thought of ways they can you know
increase their chances of death and you know
what the answer was it was to go to the aid sites
to try to get food if you got the food great
you get to bring back food to your family but
if you die it's almost like a suicide in a way
you know so let's talk about the starvation first
and i obviously i really want to get to the you
know the atrocities that are happening in what's
supposed to be a safe zone for the civilians
to find their food um as you mentioned june was
kind of the beginning so obviously you know with
your journey through medicine you know what a
healthy child you know man woman etc looks like
and you know you know malnutrition for example
what were you seeing at that point with your
own eyes so I have to back up a little bit. So
it didn't start in June. I would say it mostly
started in March. And that's when the GHF took
over from the UN agencies that were essentially
banned. You know, they've been providing aid
in third world countries for decades since World
War II, basically. And in Israel, they've been,
I mean, in Gaza specifically by Israel, they've
been banned. And this new distribution scheme
headed by private military contractors called
the GHF. It's a joint venture between Israel
and America with our tax dollars helping prop
this up. You know, this is the this is the aid
distribution mechanism that has been established
in March. Now, it's not bringing enough in a
food and it's feeding a very select population.
Basically, the healthiest men who can get there,
who can walk eight to 10 kilometers and back.
Right. And maybe, for example, I don't know the
exact ratio, but it's. Like imagine 10 ,000 people
trying to get food for, and there's only a thousand
boxes, right? So there's just not enough food
to feed even all the people that are coming there.
And there's only three or four aid distributions
in all of Gaza. And prior to that, there was
about 400 UN aid distribution sites. So we're
talking about just impossibility. Now, to answer
your question, starvation doesn't happen overnight.
You probably know this because you've probably
been through survival training as a firefighter,
but you can... You can't live without water very
long. Maybe a few days to weeks at max, you know.
But food, you can live pretty long without food.
I'm not saying it's healthy. But you can go months,
weeks or months without food. And truly, I think
this is all engineered starvation. It started
in March knowing that's really not going to kick
in until July, August. You know, we're talking
three or four months. And that's what we're seeing.
So in June, we started to see where people were
passing out. People were, you know, becoming,
having hypovitaminosis, anemia. You could see
it in their skin. Their energy levels were just
sunken. The kids have no emotions. They're just
tired. They don't even cry. And you're starting
to see it and you're like, something's happening
here. You know, but people aren't dying yet.
And then July came along and then you just started
seeing a spike. if you look at the chart it's
like in march one or two april one or two you
know june three or four and then july was like
60. you know and i don't the august numbers obviously
are not out yet because it's august 7th but i'm
really afraid it's gonna be like 150 200 because
it's not going up like linear it's going up like
like a like a logarithmic you know Until something
drastic happens, that's going to get worse and
worse. And we're going to be talking about very
high rate of death because we're in what we call
IPC category five. And it's like international
criteria for food insecurity. And we're in stage
five, which is famine. What that means is in
a population, that's two deaths per about 10
,000 people. So if you extrapolate that up to
2 .2 million people, that's about 500 deaths
a day. And the problem with feeding a population
who's already in famine is you can't just give
them a T -bone steak and call it a day. Then
they're going to have something called refeeding
syndrome from a medical perspective where their
electrolytes just don't know how to handle this
rush of nutrients and food to the point your
body just goes in shock almost. And it pushes
the electrolytes into the wrong places. And then
you have cardiac arrhythmias and you can die.
So now we're dealing with the population that's
not only starving to death, but even giving them
aid might actually kill them. You need nutritionists,
you need physicians, you need coaches. We're
getting to a point where this is, in my opinion,
all engineered to really come together kind of
where we are now in August, July, August, September.
And I don't think... I don't see a solution is
what I'm concerned about. You might call me pessimistic,
but just the way America is responding, just
the way Israel is responding, just the way every
other country in the world is not responding,
I'm really scared to see what happens next year.
When I was young, there was this amazing children's
show called Blue Peter, and I've talked about
it a few times on here. The television was phenomenal.
It really was. And Blue Peter would talk about,
you know, uh famines and things that were going
on in the world and then they would literally
get all you know the young people the school
kids to figure out to do fundraisers and so we
would raise money and obviously hopefully that
would go and help with the feeding over there
now you're seeing these images which again are
very similar to the holocaust images of the starvation's
gone even the you know as you said the aid workers
the doctors you know they're gaunt as well but
this isn't you know, a weather incident. This
is literally a group of people that have been
enclosed while there is, you know, bountiful
amounts of food on the outside of these walls.
So this is what makes it so disgusting is there
was a solution, you know, and I think what I'd
love to hear about is you mentioned the GHF sites.
There's this kind of projection like, oh, we're
providing all this food. And again, you know,
Hamas has taken it or, you know. Whatever the
excuse of why it isn't getting to the people.
Now, again, you've been on the ground. You've
been talking to these people that are there.
Talk to me about these sites. You mentioned how
few there are in the first place. But are there
just tankers of food being held by Hamas or whatever
it is away from the people? Or is it set up to
seem like aid is being given when it's actually
not? So aid is a very complicated topic, and
I think it's worth talking about here. So there's
a GHF aid. There's only four sites of distribution,
and all of these distribution sites are in what
you call red zones or militarized zones by the
Israeli army to the point if anyone with a gun
or a weapon were to go there, that drone would
just smack them dead in a millisecond. There's
just no way. And there's a drone flying overhead
24 -7 while we were in the hospital. And I'm
sure that's everywhere in Gaza, but we were only
in Khan Yunis. And yeah, there was not a second
in the day that there wasn't a drone buzzing
overhead. On top of that, there's tens of thousands
of people who go to these GHF sites. And while
you're there, there's military contraction from
America. There's Israeli army. There's drones.
There's tanks. And to say that Hamas. is going
there to steal the aid basically just means that
the Israeli army and the American mercenaries
are incompetent. That Hamas can just come, take
the food, and steal it from everyone, from the
10 ,000 people. It's not logistically possible.
It's not logistically feasible, even if you believed
in that, right? And okay, let's say one Hamas
person was there and he took some food for himself
and his family. Is that Hamas stealing aid to
the point that you starve the rest of the population?
No. On top of that, the GHF sites are not bringing
in as much aid as you think. We actually saw
one of the convoys coming in as we were leaving
Gaza. It was about three truckloads, three 18
-wheel trucks. You see that on the highway, three
trucks. Great. That probably will feed 1 ,000
to 2 ,000 people. That's not enough food. It's
a joke. It's a show. So there's something else
we need to talk about. So that's the GHF. The
other thing is there is some aid coming in that's
not GHF. And that is still not enough. It's just
not enough trucks. We're talking about 500 aid
trucks needed per day at bare minimum, according
to the UN, before the war. Okay. And we're talking
about like 10 trucks a day now, you know, three
from GHF, seven from non -GHF. For example, I'm
making up numbers, but it's this small, you know.
Now, the problem with these trucks is that in
order to get into Gaza, they have to go through
military roads, Israeli army military roads.
And who gets first access to these trucks in
these highly militarized zones? I don't think
many of your audience members might know this,
but there's what we call internal gangs in Gaza.
And these gangs somehow get access to the aid
before anyone else in these militarized zones
that Israel is keeping a close eye on. So you
might wonder, like, how the heck are they doing
that? Well, it turns out there's a lot of media
that's reported on this, that these gangs are
actually Israeli backed internal gangs. So basically
sellouts in Gaza that through whatever means
that they're. selling out to their their brothers
and sisters in gaza they're willing to help the
israeli army whether it be financial gains whether
it be a promise of security whether it be a promise
of exile in the future um they're basically looting
these trucks taking majority of the food off
and then selling it in gaza at extraordinary
prices okay and any of the local police in gaza
And when I say police, you know, people's heads
might be like, oh, that's Hamas. No, well, it's
still a society that's trying to function, you
know. So now at this point, they're probably
voluntary police. So they try to protect these
convoys, but they can't. And if they have weapons,
then they'll be struck with a drone. And this
has happened multiple times. So now you have
these gangs and the main one is Abu Shabab. So
Abu Shabab, he, I believe. was a ex -fatah member
or a non -hamas before the war some people say
he has isis links as well and his family disowned
him publicly they put a social media post out
there his entire family basically said he is
not of our blood anymore and his blood is halal
meaning like anyone can kill him and that's that's
retribution for what he's done to the gazan population
so that's the other part of it that's not no
one's really talking about it's this israeli
backed gangs that israel is using to take advantage
and create more chaos create more inflation create
more difficulty create more starvation and it's
a perpetual it's just getting worse every day
Talk to me as well. And you kind of touched on
it with the MCI. We've seen the videos, these
people that do make it to these aid sites that
are then being literally executed while they're
trying to get food for their families. So I was
never at the GHF sites. So my evidence, and I
told you I'm all about private evidence, is secondary
evidence, right? I wasn't there. But what I will
tell you is we talked to all the family members
through translators. through our fellow doctors,
what is going on out there? Where did you come
from? What does the GHF sites look like? What's
happening? Are they actually shooting at you?
Why are they shooting at you? Why are they shooting
tank shells? We are asking everything because
we ourselves are journalists while we were there.
We didn't recognize the fact that we would go
there as doctors, but we would also be journalists,
humanitarianists, friends, psychologists. I mean,
we were... So much more than just doctors. And
as a journalist, I think it came to a realization
that once we realized there's really no journalists
on the ground anymore, we had to take it upon
ourselves to get the story straight. And here
I am talking to you and I give, you know, I thank
you so much for giving me this opportunity. But
I'm conveying to you through secondary evidence
that the GHF sites are civilians going to get
food. Some people get it. Some people don't.
And they have to basically quarrel themselves
into these little narrow walkways, one in and
then one out. And then on their way in and out,
they're hurried in and hurried out by gunfire.
And I don't know if they shoot directly at them
or shoot next to them. But the point is, everyone
said there's gunfire everywhere. And it's just
chaos, you know, and then you see the social
media videos. And you hear some testimonies that
are coming out now. And you're kind of putting
the piece of the puzzle together. But it's interesting
because we're hearing accounts of what's happening
at the GHF. And then we're receiving it at Nassar
Hospital Trauma Bay. And it's like this puzzle
piece. It just fits. It's so perfect. But I guess
that's still not enough evidence for people to
believe international doctors. I mean, it is.
I literally struggle to even comprehend it. I
really do. But I believe there is a shift finally.
Too little, too late. Absolutely. But there is
a shift happening. Even the BBC now, everything
is definitely reporting what's going on in Gaza
rather than, like I said early on, Hamas this,
Hamas that. So kind of walk me through the end
of that. I mean, arguably deployment. And then,
you know, what was your homecoming like after
being immersed in that for a few weeks? Yeah,
so, you know. I feel like I should just touch
on one part of my deployment there that really
hit me is their perseverance, is their smiles,
is their humanity, is their friendship, is their
hardworking ethics, their love for education,
especially medicine, medical students to the
residents. They just wanted to be taught lectures
and pretend like there's a normal life out there.
And I just thought that was so fascinating that.
These people who are going through annihilation
just want me to lecture them about a medical
topic. It just didn't make any sense. You think
they just want to go home and spend time with
their family. But no, they have a whole different
outlook on life. I don't think we can understand.
So that's one of the things that keeps me happy
is just the memories I have with them. The positive
moments between the traumatic moments. And we
were all in it together. You know, we came in
as Americans and we were the same humanity that
we're expected to have anywhere in the world.
And I think that really showed. A lot of the
people turn around after we pronounced their
loved one dead, say thank you for coming here
from America, from your comforts of your home,
from giving up your family to be with us. And,
you know, I'm not about self -promotion at all.
Being a doctor is a very, you know, thankless
job. And I'm okay with that. I'm completely okay
with that, right? But I've never felt more gratitude
from others than being in Gaza. People were thanking
us so many times a day, even after we pronounced
our family members dead. They knew we tried our
best, you know. And there's really the resources
there are just awful. We didn't even touch on
that. But the resources in Gaza are just minimal
in terms of every kind of medical specialty.
But yeah, so, you know, eventually it was time
to come home. And that date was kind of looming
on us. We almost didn't want to go home because
we're just like, this is so pure. This is so,
you know, this is medicine. And we felt it. And
we haven't felt that in a really long time. So
as we were leaving, it was very bittersweet.
We were very happy, very excited to see our family
soon, our babies. Some of us had six months old
at home. Some of us had five months old. There
was one doctor who had a two -week -old. waiting
for him at home. Sorry, four week at that time.
So he entered with a two week old. And yeah,
we were excited, but just we're leaving our brothers
and sisters behind. That's what it felt like.
I don't know if I'd see them again. I keep in
touch with them, but I would have no idea what
will happen to them. How did you begin the process
that when you came home? Because you talk about
moral injury, even in my career. I think one
of the most crushing things when you're in, you
know, a service profession, you know, medical
profession is the inability to save. And you're
out there, you know, with. know such limited
resources and just overwhelmed by the number
of people that needed help and then you get on
a plane and you find yourself back in in the
states and as you said the creature compass that
you're used to and with your healthy children
and healthy wife that must have been jarring
in a way so how have you been able to navigate
that so far yeah that was hard i landed um you
know 14 15 hours later came home my Five -month
-old at that time. Was so chubby. You know, he
had fat rolls all over his arms. I was just like,
wow. I don't know. I'm happy, but I wish I could
give some of that fat to those kids, you know?
And then my 9 -year -old and my 6 -year -old
were just so happy I'm home. They're like, Baba,
when you get over Gaza, can we play Mario Kart?
In my head, I was like, I can't get mad at these
kids. It's not fair, you know? But I was so upset.
Just so upset that they said that. I was like,
you don't understand what I just saw. You don't
understand what I just experienced. Talking about
playing Mario Kart just angered me. I looked
at my wife and I was like, I need to just not
say anything right now. It took me maybe a week
to get back into things. I think I kind of just
slept everything off. It's not that I slept it
off. I think I just handled my emotions through
sleeping. And yeah, now I'm putting things more
into action than I thought I would. I didn't
really know what I would do when I came back,
but I find myself being a lot more vocal about
what's going on there than I ever have. I'm just
not scared anymore. You know, before people label
you this, label you that, saying, hey, this is
too political. Hey, this is not something we
need to talk about at work. And I'm just like,
dude, I'm a doctor. If people are dying, it's
relevant, you know? I don't care where it is.
I'm talking about it. And my job is not to be
annoying, but just to raise awareness. And like
you said, the world is waking up. Unfortunately,
we have leadership in every country that's just
still hibernating to going the opposite direction.
But I truly think Americans are finally like,
okay, something is majorly off here and it's
our tax money that's doing this. And I don't
know what it is, but I feel like it just started
two, three weeks ago. I agree. I agree. I think
there's literally the beginning of what I've
called a renaissance of kindness, compassion,
and empathy. I think we've strayed so far from
who we are as Americans. And even if you subscribe
to Islam or Christianity or Judaism or whatever
it is, even there, you're like, well, wait a
second. Would our prophet actually turn their
head to these atrocities? Of course not. of course,
that'd be the first person, you know, acting.
So I think, you know, there's the cracks to the
foundation are really starting to show now. And
I've, you know, something I've said everything
from this to, you know, even in my profession,
as far as lack of leadership is there's a, there's
a lot of cowardice, you know, we, we beat our
chests and we, you know, get all googly eyed
over guns and, you know, muscles and cowardice
is standing up when it's an unpopular conversation.
I mean, sorry, it's not standing up. Courage
is standing up when it's an unpopular conversation.
And cowardice is allowed to thrive and becomes
tyranny if you just let it perpetuate. So I think
that now people are starting to see through the
lies and then hopefully there'll be a groundswell
of support in the right direction. So with that
being said, if you were king for a day and you
could wave a magic wand, what were the things
that would need to change so that we could reverse
this? Yeah, I think it's dialogue. I think it's
just communication. I think it's love. And I
know these sound so generic, but, you know, I
don't think the Gazans hate Jews. I don't think
the Gazans hate Israelis. I think if they were
given a chance to coexist in a single state where
everyone's democratic and everyone has the same
rights, I think they would get over the genocide.
I think they would. Just try to start a new life.
Because I think at this point, people are just
sick of it. They just want to live. But they
want to be given an equal chance. Because they've
been living in this apartheid concept for however
long they were born. And I think it's time that
we get over that. Colonialism is so old school
now. It's like, why do we still have this concept
going on in 2025? I truly think if I was given
that magic ability, I would just tell people,
figure it out. Figure it out. Stop the killing.
Just like two siblings. They're going to fight,
right? But as a parent, you tell them, figure
it out. I'm done with your bickering. And I feel
like Trump, he has that power. He really does.
And I'm not trying to get political. I'm not
going to talk about Democrats, Republicans. but
truly you know we can't argue that trump is the
most powerful man in the world he has the power
to stop this overnight actually when we were
in gaza the iran israel uh conflict was going
on and then 12 days later just stopped you know
because trump told it to stop and everyone was
just like why can't that happen for guys yeah
exactly and i think that's it you know in the
meantime we're talking about you know revamping
the White House rather than what needs to be
talked about. And I think going to your point,
one of the greatest tricks that they've ever
pulled is to label things that really need to
be discussed as religion or politics. It's not.
It's humanity. Whether it's the COVID, the pandemic,
whatever it is, it was never political. And with
this, it's not about politics. It's the fact
that this is inhumane what's going on. And you
mentioned apartheid. One of the bravest, loudest
voices at the beginning were the Irish and the
South Africans. Two populations that have experienced
this kind of issue. So if we're not listening
to them, then who the hell are we listening to?
Absolutely. Absolutely. I actually, through this
conflict, learned so much about Ireland and the
conflict like you were talking about. I didn't
know much of that growing up. So this has opened
my eyes to that. And also what's happened in
South Africa. Growing up, I just didn't know
enough about that. But this conflict in Gaza
has really made me learn a lot more. Because
you have to read. You just have to educate yourself.
You can't just ignore it. There's so much distractions
in our lives. And we can just binge Netflix.
But that doesn't make you a well -rounded person.
We should strive for betterment. We should strive
for understanding humanity. We should strive
to understand different cultures. And again,
that makes us American. I think in America, we
truly do have that advantage of being so multicultural
and just being able to understand the world at
a level that most other people who live in a
uniform population don't get the chance to. Absolutely.
Well, before we close off this conversation,
is there anything else you want to impart? No,
I just honestly, I feel like I've been talking
to most people at work nowadays and people who
have come up with the conclusion that, you know,
60 ,000 dead and, you know, half of them women
and children. I just say thank you for having
a moral compass. Like that's that's the level
of expectation I have now. The fact that people
just have a moral compass. And if that's what
it takes for the world to change, I'll take it.
Because like I said, something's changed in the
last two or three weeks. Let's continue this
momentum where we're doing grassroots education
about humanity. And I think that's what's going
to change the world. People like you talking
about this, who are not scared to back away from
this, giving me a voice. I actually asked one
of the representatives, how many physicians...
since October, 2023 have been there probably
500. So it's probably 500 individuals who can
actually speak to what's actually happened there,
you know, and only 170 at Nassar hospital, which
is crazy, you know? And yeah, I just, I just
really want to thank the people who are speaking
up for being brave. You know, we in the West
have a louder voice and, and I'll have to say
it white, white men and women have a louder voice
than me as a Brown American dude. And so, I just
want to hear more voices speaking up about this.
Because it's really not a religious thing at
this point. It's not an ethnic thing. It's just
humanity is just being annihilated. And we need
to get back on our feet and learn from history
for once. I think at the end of the day, we have
to remember that everyone out there who's being
killed Is no different than your sister your
mother your father your brother your son your
daughter. They're just trying to live a life