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with Joel Totoro and Wes Barnett. Welcome to
the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my
name is James Gearing, and this week it is my
absolute honor to welcome on the show one of
the founding members of the Broken Lizard Troop,
star of Super Troopers, Beer Fest, Tacoma FD,
and so many more firehouse favorites, Kevin Heffernan.
So in this conversation, we discuss a host of
topics from his early life, his journey into
the world of law, the story how he met Steve
Lemme, the formation of Broken Lizard, Super
Troopers, Beer Fest, how they brought Quasi to
the streaming services, how his cousin was a
big influence on the creation of Tacoma FD, overcoming
censorship, and so much more. Now, before we
get to this incredible conversation, as I say
every week, please just take a moment, go to
whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show. Leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
almost 900 episodes now. So all I ask in return
is that you help share these incredible men and
women's stories so I can get them to every single
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
Have fun. Enjoy. Well, Kevin, I want to start
by saying firstly, thank you to Eric Skolhans.
Stolhansky, I'll just start on his name then,
for connecting us and to welcome you onto the
Behind the Shield podcast today. Yeah, he's a
fellow Floridian to you, isn't he? He is, yes.
And yeah, no, he put us together, which is great,
which is great. Absolutely. Thanks for having
me. Yeah, well, thank you. I mean, obviously,
the timing is perfect. You know, we were going
to be connected a little while ago, but now with
Tacoma FD just being on Netflix as well, there
couldn't be a better time, I think, for this
conversation. So I always tell people it's not
if, it's when. And, you know, when the time is
right, it will happen. So here we are. Yeah.
No, I know. It's been a good couple of weeks.
The show's been on Netflix for a couple of weeks
now, and a lot of people are finding it. So this
is a good time to talk, man. 100%. All right.
Well, very first question, where on planet Earth
are we finding you today? I'm in Los Angeles.
I live in Los Angeles. So I was just on the East
Coast for the holidays and I got out of there
right ahead of the blizzards. So I made it back
to sunny Los Angeles. Thank goodness. So where
about in LA are you living? I live out in the
valley. I live kind of, I don't know, about half
an hour out of town. And it's nice because we.
We shot our show out here. So it ended up being
a good place for me to live near the location
of our show. Beautiful. I lived in Burbank for
a while and then Huntington Beach when I worked
for Anaheim Fire. Okay. Yeah. I'm on the other
side in the Thousand Oaks area. Okay. Gotcha.
Yeah. Beautiful. Well, I would love to start
at the very beginning of your timeline so we
can learn a little bit about your backstory.
So tell me where you were born and tell me a
little bit about your family dynamic, what your
parents did, how many siblings. Okay. I grew
up in Connecticut, West Haven, Connecticut, which
is just west of New Haven, Connecticut. I have
two brothers and a sister. My dad was a local
lawyer. He was a lawyer for many years and a
judge, actually. He was a judge for about 30
years in my hometown, 28 years. and so yeah so
i just grew up in connecticut pretty normal you
know childhood and um i ended up going to colgate
university in upstate new york and um and that's
where i met um all the other fellas that you
know we made these broken lizard movies with
super troopers and beer fest and we started you
know doing comedy there and um and from there
you know uh we moved to new york city and just
started making comedy and uh At the time, I wasn't
sure if it was all going to work out. So I ended
up going to law school at the same time. And
I became a lawyer in New York City for a while.
And then luckily was able to shift gears into
the comedy world. So I don't know. That's the
grand scheme of covering about 40 years right
there for you. Well, I'm going to go back. So
let's talk about growing up with a dad -in -law.
Firstly, what area of law was he practicing?
He was kind of a general practice guy. He was
the kind of small -town lawyer that people would
hire if they had some sort of injury or workplace
problem or whatever. And he also kind of specialized
in estates, very dry stuff. And it led him to
be a judge for 28 years in that. uh, in that
area of the States and that kind of thing. And,
um, so yeah, I mean, you know, we had grown about,
and I grew up, um, you know, and I think that's
probably what I aspired to was to follow my dad's
footsteps, you know? And, um, and so I kind of
was on that track for a long time. Did having
someone in law as a parent factor into you being
more careful when you were a teenager and not
getting into too much trouble? It's funny. We
would hear stories and I'll talk about my my
older cousin, this guy named Cousin Bill, who's
a firefighter, was a firefighter for 30 years
in my hometown. And he was much more of a troublemaker.
And we'd hear stories about my dad going down
and bailing him out of jail. And it made me think
that maybe I should keep myself in order. So,
yeah, I mean, we tried to let that be a thing
that kept us in line. And sometimes it didn't
work out. But, you know. uh we try to stay on
the stage straight and narrow now what about
sports what were you playing when you were school
age um i don't know we kind of did it all you
know we i played hockey and baseball i played
football played basketball and um you know kind
of the the big four or whatever and so uh you
know i we played in those leagues as kids and
little league and pop warner football and you
know all that kind of stuff and we did that all
the way up through high school so it was kind
of very um you know, straightforward. I was never
that great at any of them, you know, I was, uh,
you know, moderately okay. And, uh, but you know,
it was, that was the kind of way that you engage
with other people and had fun with your friends
and that kind of thing. When I was little, I
was very small, had a blonde Afro, buck teeth,
dry skin, and spoke differently than a lot of
the kids. Cause I went to a private junior school
and then, uh, like a state school you know the
public senior school and so was constantly having
to be a bit of a chameleon and definitely became
a bit of a sniper when it came to saying funny
shit i wasn't the class clown or anything but
comedy became kind of an armor for me i think
when i look back and a lot of the people that
i've had on the show that ended up in comedy
there was You know, more often than not, an element
of bullying or low self -esteem when they were
younger and that comedy kind of came out of that.
When you look back now, is there any of that
genesis on your story? I don't know. I think
there probably was a little bit. I was always
a heavy kid, you know, so I was always a little
fat kid who's the, you know, the kid who's always
tends to be the jokester. But yeah, I don't think
like you, I don't think I was necessarily the
class clown. You know, it was. But, you know,
I definitely gravitated towards like the funny
stuff and the wisecracking. And, you know, I
always enjoyed, you know, watching comedy and
that kind of stuff as a kid. I don't think that
I fill the role of like tortured artist or bullied
kid that turned to comedy. I don't really fit
that role. I don't think I think I was just,
you know. You know, Steve Lemme, my partner in
crime in Tacoma, you know, we always talked about
the traditional funny fat guy. And I was like
the little funny fat kid probably is what it
came down to. Well, what about career aspirations?
I know you ended up in law. Was that what you
were dreaming of becoming when you were in school
or was that something else? I think so. I think
I was always on that track, you know. I worked
in a few different law firms and things like
that. It sounds very unsexy, but I, you know,
I think I was definitely on track for that. And
but in the back of my mind, you know, I always
enjoyed, you know, performing and, you know,
I'd done plays and stuff like that. And, you
know, and when I got to college, you know, we
started doing some comedy shows and that that
really kind of clicked for me. And so I think
by the time we got to college, I don't know that
we ever realized it would go where it did. But
by the time we got to college, I think, you know,
you're hoping that that's the direction you go
in, you know. And, you know, so I did dual paths,
you know, I. When we were in New York City as
a young comedy group and doing shows, you know,
by day I would go to law school and by night
we would do comedy shows, you know, and just,
you know, see which track won, you know. I was
watching an interview. I think it was ABC or
one of the TV stations anyway. And you were on
with Steve. I think it was promoting Tacoma,
if I'm not mistaken. But the origin story of
how you met that involved a party and an overcoat.
So I think I'd love to hear that story if you're
able to recall it. Well, Steve Lemme is kind
of a rake. You know, he's always kind of an impish
kind of guy. And he was a year younger than I
was at school. And so, you know, I was a member
of this fraternity house and he was a freshman
below us who was trying to get into the fraternity
house. You know, we would have this and I had
never met the kid before. And we would have these
parties at this fraternity house. And it was
an upstate New York. It was very cold. Everyone
would show up in their winter coat. Everyone
take their winter coat off. They throw it in
the middle of the floor and then they go party
or whatever, you know. And so one night there's
a party and I went to the pile to grab my coat
to go. And my coat was gone. It was missing.
Somebody stole it, you know, which happened occasionally.
But I was pissed off because it was freezing
out. And, you know, I lost it. And so I went
a couple of weeks. without my coat. And then
there was another party and I saw my coat in
that pile, you know, and I was like, holy shit,
there's my coat. And, uh, I went, I, I grabbed
it and I reached inside of it. And the guy apparently
who was the thief who stole my coat had left
his college ID in the pocket of the coat. And
I pulled it out and it says, Steven Carlos Lemmy.
And I was like, who is this guy? And somebody
said, oh, he's a freshman. He's trying to get
into the fraternity and whatever. And he's in
the other room dancing. And I was like, oh, boy.
So I went up to him and I said, hey, buddy, you
stole my coat. He said, no, I didn't. I said,
yeah, I found your ID inside the coat. And he
went, oh, my God, the same guy that stole your
coat must have been the guy who stole my ID.
And I thought that was a great response. And
from then, from that point, that was the first
time we kind of met. And then ultimately we were
thrown into this comedy group together. And we
just kind of hit it off and started writing stuff
together. But it was not an auspicious beginning
to our career because I hated him. I didn't like
the guy, you know. And, you know, I've come to
like him a little bit over the years. So how
did you get over that, though? Because, I mean,
at one point, you know, the only thing you know
about this guy is that he's a thief. And now
you put in this group together. It's funny because
we had started this comedy group in college.
Jay Chandrasekhar was the guy I started with,
and ultimately he went on to direct Super Troopers,
and we did our group together. We still have
our group. So Jay and I kind of started that
group, that comedy group at school, and Jay really
wanted to have Steve be a part of it. And I was
like, I'm not putting that guy in this thing.
You know, the guy's a thief. You know, I don't
like him. You know, he's got long hair and earrings.
I don't like that. You know, all that kind of
stuff. And he's like, oh, well, you know what?
We'll we'll get him in there. He can play like
the scumbag roles. You know, he can play like
the the you know, the the guys who were, you
know, you don't really like that much. And I
was like, OK. And so I let him, you know, I said,
that's OK. He can come in. And so he joined.
And then from there, though, you know. We actually
have a very similar sense of humor and things
that we like. We became great friends at that
point because we were kind of thrown in this
thing together. From then on, we just kind of
had a great time writing things together. We
would write sketches together for the two of
us to star in or to act in or whatever. It kind
of just ended up growing from there. What about
Eric? When did he first come on your radar? Eric
was also a year. uh below us and um and i didn't
even know him that way he came into our comedy
group the second year and uh but he was also
a member of our fraternity and um uh and he he
i knew him as a member of the attorney before
i knew him as like a performer but he was kind
of a theater guy and um you know he came into
the group and he used to do this like funny like
ridiculous, like lizard character or something.
And, you know, we, we would, we made like, we
would shoot videos of it and stuff. And, and
so, you know, he joined us the second year. And
then when we moved to New York city, he has another
year of school. And after that, he came and joined
us in New York city and, and lived with, lived
on a couch or whatever. So, but yeah, I mean,
that was, you know, that was in the, in the early
nineties. So, you know, we've been together for
a long time. Do you get angry again now that
long hair and earrings are back in fashion? No,
no. I love, you know, my kids got long hair and
I, you know, I don't, I love that. I like Lemmy's
long hair. I just like to give him shit about
it. Cause he had a very New Yorkie look, you
know, he had a, he had, you know, long hair and
like multiple earrings and he would wear like
this suede coat with tassels on it. that he would
walk around town on. And you're like, are you
kidding me, pal? But on the inside, I actually
really liked his look. So what about the kind
of genesis of the style of comedy that you guys
ended up creating? Because, I mean, I'm obviously
grown up with Monty Python and some of these
other more obscure comedians, and that's embedded
in British culture. when it comes to the fire
service, super troopers, beer fest, some of these
films that you ended up making were absolute
firehouse favorites. And I'm sure you heard that
many, many times. So when you're surrounded by,
you know, the spectrum of comedy from the super
cheesy sex is like baseball standup comedian
all the way through to the obscure, how did you
guys find the area that you created? You know,
I think part of it was just this group dynamic
that we had in that, like, you know, A lot of
the goals at the time was to make each other
laugh and what it was to make each other laugh.
And I think everyone drew on whatever they came
from. You know, I mean, I think, you know, at
the time, you know, you know, certainly, you
know, we grew up on, you know, early SNL and
we grew up on, you know, the John Landis movies,
you know, like the Blues Brothers or, you know,
or those Lampoon movies or, you know, you know,
Animal House and stuff like that. I think. Those
were kind of the things that informed us. And
a lot of it was like a group of people, a group
of usually guys together, you know, having a
good time, making each other laugh. And that
was always something that we kind of focused
on, I feel like. I mean, another kind of thing
I think that we always kind of focused on in
that vein was. was that idea of creating worlds
where, or situations where the people who are
watching the audience felt like they were a part
of something or that they wanted to belong to
something. And, you know, it was never, we were
never a mean spirited group. We were never, you
know, targeting people or whatever it was. It
was more of like, let's create this environment.
where we're all going to have some laughs together
because that's what we're doing anyway. Right.
We're that group of college guys who are like,
you guys are funny. You should make a movie.
And then we actually did make a movie, you know?
And so, I don't know. I think it was that kind
of like good natured camaraderie. And, and those
are the kinds of comedies we liked. And that's
the common comedy we decided to make, you know?
What about naysayers? There's a lot of people
that are very successful now and they had to
navigate so many people saying, ah, you'll never
because, you know, what was the resistance that
you were getting from some of the other people
in your arena? Well, I mean, I think you certainly
get that from, you know, to a certain extent
from parents and things like that who think,
you know, maybe it's a little bit of folly, you
know, that you're heading down this. this road.
And, and also it's just, you know, it's a hard
nut to crack, you know, it's a hard business
to get into. And once you get into it, it's a
hard business to sustain and make a living at.
So I think those were the big, the kind of big
naysayers were like, ah, you guys will never
get anywhere, you know? And, and you know, I
think it was weird. Cause like, even from our
younger days, we had just enough success each
time to keep us going to the next step. and to
keep us kind of persevering. And, you know, I
think that helped us overcome the naysayers and
that we, we had, you know, a certain level of
success, whether it was, Hey, we got into this
film festival or, Hey, we sold this movie or
we sold this TV idea and we just kept rolling,
you know? So I think, you know, we, we ran into
the normal obstacles that everyone had, but,
you know, I think, I don't know if it was dumb
or just persevering. We just kind of pushed our
way through it all, you know? I got a feeling
that when you're told, oh, you'll never do that,
you're probably on the right track. That means
you're further out of the comfort zone to challenge
the way people think. Absolutely. Oh, yeah. OK,
fine. You know, and again, you know, it's also,
you know, we were so lucky to have a support
group. You know what I mean? It's like so many
people try to jump into this business and they're
alone or whatever it is. We walked into this
business with, you know, four of our best friends
that we've known for many, many years. And you
always had that support group. um and and you
know if you couldn't get into someone's movie
or you couldn't get into someone's whatever you
just made your own with with the guys that you
had and and that was always the mentality so
what about the origin story for your first film
being about troopers Yeah. Well, I mean, that
was kind of weird. We had made a film before
that. It was called Puddle Cruiser. And we had
sold it. We brought it to the Sundance Film Festival.
It was a movie we made for about $200 ,000. And
we shot it at our old college. And it was just
kind of a college romantic comedy. And that was
a little bit of the calling card. So we brought
that to a few festivals, went to the Sundance
Film Festival back in 97 or 98. And it ended
up, you know. giving us a foothold. You know,
we met a lot of people and so it made us feel
like, hey, we could do this. And so let's let's
make a let's make a big movie or not a big movie,
but like a real movie, you know. And so we had
been batting around a couple of ideas and. At
the same time, we were at that age where you're
in your 30s or your late 20s and all your buddies
are getting married and you're going to all these
weddings and stuff like that. I haven't been
to a wedding in a long time, but there was a
time where you'd hit five in the summer. I remember
we would jump into Jay's car and we would drive
around, five or six of us, and go to these weddings.
Occasionally, we would get pulled over by the
cops. We always thought it was hysterical. these
five kind of false bravado guys riding around
in a car, you know, cracking jokes and whatever.
And then the moment that cop walks up to the
car, it's yes, sir, no, sir. Your tail is between
your legs, you know. And we always thought that
dynamic was really funny. And so we just started
riffing and riffing on scenarios where that would
be the case, where, you know, if you're on the
cop side of it, what power did you have? What
ability did you have to fuck around with the
guys on the other side? And, you know, I think.
And we just started writing almost like sketches,
you know, like, what if they did this? What if
they did this repeater game? And what if, you
know, the cops were trying to say meow all the
time? You know, whatever. We had all these ideas
and we just kind of started writing these scenes.
And then we started stringing them together,
you know, with a plot. And, you know, I don't
think any of us ever expected the success that
would have or how it would resonate with people.
But, you know, it was basically a series of.
of cop sketches. And I think that kind of the
unique thing was we were on the side of the cops,
you know, and that, and cops loved that. I mean,
the whole kind of law enforcement community,
guys in uniform loved that, you know, the military
guys, everybody, that you were showing that these
guys were human and that they had, you know,
they liked to have fun and they were good natured
people and that kind of stuff. And I think, you
know, that was probably the thing that resonated.
And then It just kind of slowly took off. You
know, we made that movie. We didn't necessarily
know what we were doing. We brought that to the
Sundance Film Festival and then we sold that
there and it was put in theaters, which to us
was like, holy crap. And it just kind of took
off from there. It was a little of a slow burn
in the sense that, you know, a lot of people.
didn't go to the theater and watch that movie
you know you watch that in your on dvd and you
watch that in your dorm room and you watch that
with your buddies or you watch the guy you know
the barracks or you watch it in the you know
in the fire station or whatever it was and um
and then it just kind of grew from there you
know what about technical advisors i had um Dale
Dion is actually coming back on again because
they've just made a sequel to Band of Brothers.
Amazing. I worked with him. I did stunts for
a long time, so I worked with him doing a little
prep boot camp for a stunt show that I did years
ago in Japan. He obviously prepares these actors
for serious drama roles, dramatic roles, and
playing the soldier properly. how much technical
advising did you have for super troopers? Did
you, did you kind of inquire in that community
or did you do it more blind? No, I mean, like
I remember like a funny moment. It's like, we,
you know, like I said, we just kind of wrote
these sketches and, and we didn't have a whole
lot of technical, like Tacoma. We, we really
kind of like, you know, crossed our T's and dot
our I's with technical stuff. But I think. Then
we didn't know. And I remember one like funny
incident where I think it was like the first
or second day we were shooting and we were on
this highway and we shut down the highway and
to shoot and to do that, you had to have, you
know, local police officers come and do that
for you. And so we had, you know, some state
troopers there and some local police officers
and they started kind of arguing over who. you
know, was going to be in charge of this, you
know, the highway and closing it down and opening
it up and whatever. And we thought that was great.
And we started talking to those guys and we started
asking them questions. And, you know, really
we started filling stuff in on the fly, you know,
from the guys who were on our set just to shut
down traffic. And we're like, what about this?
And how does this happen? What do you do with
the, and then, you know, once it's the same way
with the firefighters, once you start them talking.
you know, they have a hundred stories, you know,
they have a story about the rookie and what they
did to this guy and the prank they pull on that
guy. And, and so that was a really kind of on
the fly technical advisor stuff where we were
talking to the cops who were on the set. Cause
we didn't, I mean, I don't, we didn't know any
better at that point. You know, we put together
a certain, you know, shoestring budget and just
went there with some cameras and started shooting
that movie. But I mean, luckily I think, you
know, I mean, there's plenty of stuff in there
that doesn't fly, but I think, you know, luckily
the cops. didn't actually call bullshit on us
because they, they enjoy the movie so much. Yeah.
It wasn't a documentary. Oh, we try very hard
to not let people call bullshit on us or to avoid
that at least. Absolutely. Well, what about beer
fest? Your last name is Heffernan. Do you have
German ancestry? Was that somewhat of an inspiration
for it? Or was it completely detached? No, it's
all, it's all Irish for me, you know? Yeah, no,
I, beer fest was, it was, We made a movie called
Club Dread after Super Troopers, and it was a
bomb. And I loved that movie, but it flopped.
And we were criticized. We were criticized for
being sophomoric and liking fart jokes and whatever
it is, that kind of stuff where you get knocked
for maybe a little lowbrow humor or whatever
it was. And so Beer Fest was a reaction to that.
It was kind of like, oh, you think that we're
sophomoric? You think we're, you know, whatever,
frat boys or whatever. Let's make a movie called
Beer Fest, you know. And we had gone on a tour
to Australia for Super Troopers, the original
Super Troopers. And, you know, a tour in Australia
is very different than a tour in here. You know,
it's a much, you know, kind of more raw and,
you know, raucous movie tour, you know. So we
would go to a lot of beer gardens and we would
go to a lot of bars and, you know, whatever,
show up there in uniform, whatever it was. And
I remember we were at a beer garden. And what
they decided the promotion would be is that we
would get up on stage, the five of us, and we'd
chug beers against five local Australian guys.
And so we're like, all right, let's do it, whatever.
So they call us up on stage. And there were these
five guys who were like at a bachelor party at
this beer garden in this big crowd outside this
outside garden. And they pull these five guys
up on stage. And they said, all right, you know,
we're going to do a line chug against these guys.
And it's going to be a boat race. It's going
to be a race, you know. and so we started the
the race and the crowd went crazy like it was
like yelling anti -american you know whatever
it was like this fervent like people were rooting
for their guys so hard that uh ultimately they
had to take us off after the thing and we lost
and they took us off the stage and they put us
in a van and had to you know get us out of there
because it was it was this raucous thing and
We thought that was one of the funniest things
we'd seen and one of the coolest things we'd
seen. And that was the genesis for that beer
fest idea. It was like, oh my God, what if we
made this nationalistic Olympic competition of
beer drinking and the fans are drunk and everyone's
crazy and whatever. So that was the kind of this
Australian trip was the genesis for that idea.
And then in response to us being criticized for
being sophomoric, we decided let's make this
movie. It had kicked around a little bit. We
tried a couple of different places. And then
ultimately, Jay Chandrasekhar had directed the
remake of the Dukes of Hazzard. And he did that
for Warner Brothers. And it was a success for
them. And in response, they said, well, you guys
can go make Beer Fest. And so we made that on
a shoestring budget. And that was one of the
most fun. movies that we ever made you know it's
uh you know we had those german bad guys and
we got you know some real kind of bodybuilder
guys and we got some great comic guys like will
forte nat fax and eric christian olsen and they
played the bad guys and we got you know guys
like donald sutherland in there and you know
it was just it was just a really fun fun movie
to make and you know i think that resonated with
a whole nother group of people You know, it's
like you meet people and it depends on what their
age is. But, you know, some people are super
fans. Some people are beer fest fans. But that
was a great it was a great experience to make
that movie. Again, that was a movie that did
not succeed at the time in the box office, but
since has had this huge life kind of afterwards
that people connect with. I wrote a book three
years ago. And when you release the book, you're
like, oh, it needs to be a success now. And then
you have a realization that you made it. It doesn't
matter when it takes off as long as it's out
there. And listen to the story about Band of
Brothers again. They released it in 2001 and
then 9 -11 happened. So it didn't really have
that, you know, the all eyes on it at that point.
And it was actually the 10 year anniversary where
most of us really learned about Band of Brothers
and it really took off. And that was 10 years
later. Yeah. yeah it just takes you know the
time and the problem is there's so much fervor
and so much weight placed on the release time
of things whether it's a tv show or a book or
a movie or a song or whatever it is and then
you forget that you're still putting that thing
out into the world and people are you know people
are going to discover it and that's been the
case with every one of our projects every one
of them and you know super troopers was like
you know three years after the movie came out
we're walking down the street in new york city
and some guy comes running out of a bar and he's
like, you're the super troopers guys. And we're
like, uh, yeah, come on, let me buy you some
beers. You know? And that was, that kind of stuff
didn't happen until years after super troopers
came out, you know? And, um, and it's the same
thing with beer fest, the same thing with, um,
we just made a movie called quasi, which came
out on Hulu last year. And we wrote that movie
20 years ago. And, uh, it just takes a while.
But ultimately, if it's good or if you have a
fan base or whatever, they'll discover it. So
what was your experience going from the regular
movies to the streaming service? when Eric came
on, it was literally right before quasi. And
it was funny. I was literally talking, walking
with my wife a few days ago and we were laughing
about the rack scene. However, every scene he
gets taller and taller and taller. And, you know,
there's that, that sense that, you know, people
on the rack before they get ripped apart, they
probably feel really fucking good. Right. You
know, they'll decompression before I die. So,
so what was that experience like? Because some
people have had on the show, obviously there's,
there's a. a negative side to the streaming and
the royalties and that kind of thing but what
made you guys make the leap to that and what
has been your experience so far well i i think
it was a it was really a function it was a result
of the circumstances you know it's like obviously
that that was coming down the line you know it's
like it it's so expensive uh to put movies in
movie theaters now um and to kind of crack into
that market. And, and I think that, you know,
the companies are realizing that it was the pandemic.
I think that really brought that to fruition,
you know, where nobody was going to the movies
and they, you know, they realized that, God,
we better get these services farther along. And
you know, that they realized that maybe there
was more of a life when people sitting on their
couch, you know, and and I get it, you know,
maybe, you know, there are certain elements of
in the film world where it's not, it's. consider
it's prestigious or it's more of an event to
go out to the movie theater. And I understand
that. I mean, from our circumstances was we made
that quasi deal to be in the movie theaters.
And then when the pandemic hit, there were no
movie theaters, you know, they were closing them
down and they didn't know what the future of
it was either. You know, they never knew if they
were going to come back. And so you didn't really
have a choice at that point, you know, and the
company said that came to a searchlight and they
said, you know, look, we have this deal with
Hulu. there are no movies in movie theaters right
now. Do you guys want to convert your deal and
we'll make it a streaming deal and you guys can
make the movie. And at the time we were kind
of like, Hey, look, however it works, you know,
however we can get the scene by people were great
with it. And so, you know, I think we were, you
know, we had to make that decision at that point
in time. And, you know, it's the, it's the Tacoma
stuff to me that's made me realize that, you
know, the most important thing for me. We tell
funny stories. And the most important thing is
for as many people to laugh at that as you can
or just spread it. And the streaming has become
the way to do that. And we're finding that with
Tacoma is that it's a way to reach more people.
And we don't make superhero movies and we don't
make huge blockbuster movies. And so that seems
to be the way to reach the people these days.
I'm totally fine with it. You know, however they
watch it. I love that people are watching Tacoma
on Netflix right now. I think it's great. And,
you know, you hear from people and fans, people
discovering it. So, yeah, I mean, it was a weird
experience for Quasi because you were used to
the buildup to opening weekend, right? Everything's
about opening weekend. And then Monday morning,
whether it's, you know, a failure or a success,
the... The balloon, the air is out of the balloon
on Monday morning. You know what I mean? It's
like there's two to three days and then you're
done. The streaming stuff's not like that. You
know, it's it's, you know, it has a life. And
I really like that about Tacoma. I liked it about
Quasi, too. I mean, Quasi had a nice run for
like three, four months on Hulu. And it did quite
well, you know. I think that's the better side
of the streaming thing. But, you know. it's also
just, just the future, you know, streaming. I
don't know that it's going to go away, you know,
and I don't think that theatrical movies are
going to go away. You just have to figure out
how to make them cost effective, you know? Yeah,
absolutely. Yeah. It's funny when you, when you
publish a book on Amazon, which is what I did,
I think everyone is the number one bestseller
for like a day. It doesn't matter what you've
written and how many people buy it. You're a
number one seller. And then all of a sudden you're
actually book number 27 ,000, whatever. And it
is. But then you just kind of reframe it and
go, it's out there now. And I think that's what's
good about streaming is I can watch it today
or I can watch it a year or five years from now.
But there's two points in life. You haven't seen
it and then you've seen it. So does it have to
be the day it came out or is it 10 years from
now? As an artist. As long as that person hopefully
sees your work or reads your book or whatever
it is, when is kind of irrelevant. Yeah, I mean,
two years from now, someone's going to read your
book for the first time. They're going to love
it. It's not going to matter that it came out
on April 13th or whatever. Yeah, when it was
the number one bestseller, by the way. Yeah,
and I think that's what TV has taught me. Because,
you know, movies become so precious about building
to a date and all that kind of business. And
if you don't build that date, it's like somebody
died. You know, I remember getting calls, you
know, Monday morning after like Club Dread came
out or whatever. And they're like, we're so,
so sorry. You know, like, what, what? Because
we made this or whatever. And it's like, oh.
And it was like, you know, it was like, you know,
somebody in your family had died. You know, like,
well, now. They're going to be able to discover
that thing, you know, and then we'll watch it.
And, you know, the movie begets movies, you know,
so people who are Broken Lizard fans watch Tacoma
and people who are Tacoma fans go back and watch
the Broken Lizard movies now. And, you know,
I think it all works out for the best for us.
I mean, I don't know. Well, you made some very
unique films. I think we're about the same age,
roughly. I'm at a point now where I yearn for
new stories. They've rehashed so many stories.
They remade. you know, the films from our childhood,
the karate kids and all these things over and
over and over again. What is your kind of perspective
on the audience these days? I can't help but
feel like people are yearning either for more,
you know, true stories or, I mean, obviously
the reflection of real people like Tacoma, you
know, in the real profession or, you know, brand,
brand new stories or, you know. more raw stories
i think that's another thing i think that as
you said the superhero has just been milked to
death now marvel and dc have squeezed every single
penny out of those stories star wars franchise
so to me a film has to be worthy of someone taking
their children spending 80 100 you know on sitting
in a movie theater so um i don't know i don't
even know there's any question in there but what
is your perception now on what the audience wants
in 2023 That's why the world is so, you know,
the industry is so weird now, you know, because
it's like you do have to justify and you have
to justify up your corporate ladder. You know
why someone's going to go to that movie theater
or why someone's going to watch your material.
And, you know, that's why, you know, we're in
this stage right now. It'll shift, I think, but
they're in the stage now. It's that there has
to be. And they told us this when we put, you
know, Super Troopers 2 out in the movie theaters.
It was like going to the movie theater has to
be an event now. It has to be an event. Right.
It has to be. Hey, it's not just, you know, hey,
let's go catch this little film. It's like we
got to go see the new this and we got to go see
the movie that this person's in. And that's and
whether that's what America or the viewing public
wants or whatever it is, that's just the way
the corporate mentality of it is. Right. So you
have to overcome that. And sometimes you can,
sometimes you can't. You know, when we made Quasi.
Our feeling was, you know, this is a kind of
a different weird movie for us. You know, it's
not something that people have seen us in or
whatever. And we're not going to get anyone to
bite on putting this, taking a chance to put
this in the movie theaters. Right. Probably our
best chance is to get some streamer to put some
money up on it and do it, you know. And, you
know, I guess my feeling is that I still go back
to that thing that I said that I think. I think
people want to be a part of something. You know,
I think people want to watch something and connect
with it and be like, hey, that's like me or that's,
you know, that character is like, I've been through
that, you know. To me, I still think that's the
best driver of entertainment. And I think, you
know, when we make Tacoma, we keep that in our
mind where it's like. We pull real life stories
of, hey, that happened to me. And, you know,
I hate moisturizer or whatever it is. I like
mayonnaise. Get in there and people, you know,
connect with that. I think that's what, you know,
make people want to watch it. I still believe
that that's the driver. And so that's kind of
where we go. But I don't know if the industry
believes that. And I, you know, yes, it's easier
to put Aquaman on a poster and, you know, get
people to come out to watch it than to put, you
know, when we made Super Troopers. The poster
for Super Troopers, they put us upside down on
the poster because nobody knew who we were. And
they didn't want you to think that they were
nobodies in a movie. So they put us upside down
so you couldn't recognize who was on the poster.
And I think that still exists kind of today.
But I don't know. It's cyclical, I think. It'll
come back. to people are liking this kind of
a movie and then you know there'll be another
surge of superhero movies and then there'll be
another surge of whatever and you know zombie
movies or whatever it is um but at its heart
you know i just kind of stick with the fact that
i think i think people want to connect personally
with things so however that happens you know
absolutely we do it through 100 yeah which is
how you connect in the fire service too you know
i mean we see horrible stuff and laughter is
the way that we connect and decompress absolutely
Absolutely. And, you know, we've talked to a
lot of guys about that. And they're like, hey,
you should do a story about this. We can't do
a story about that in this show. It's a little
dark. You know, whatever. But, you know, we can
take this and make a spin on it and have fun
with it. Well, speaking of that, then, so you
mentioned Cousin Bill. Walk me through, you know,
your experience with him when you were young
and your perception of the fire service, however
that was, and then how that factored into the
creation of Tacoma FD. Yeah, I mean, you know,
in my hometown, it was always kind of like a
family business, you know. And my cousin was
there and there were always like families, you
know, that had people in the fire. And it was
fathers and brothers and cousins. And they were
on the local fire department. And if your, you
know, kid had something stuck in their throat,
you'd walk them down to the fire department in
the corner and they'd get the thing out of his
throat or whatever it was. You know, it was a
very kind of like community oriented, you know.
And that was something that we always loved.
And as we were trying to make the show, it goes
back to kind of what I was saying about what
you connect with is that we pitched this show
as a family show because a firehouse is a family.
You're there 24 hours a day with the guys on
your shift. You sleep with them. You eat with
them. And then at the same time, there are families
within where there's cousins and brothers and
fathers and daughters and whatever in the service
together. And that was a big. attraction to the
idea for us, because that's, I think that, again,
like I said, that's how people connect with it,
you know? And so, you know, we, we were batting
around these ideas, Lemmy and I, and you know,
my cousin Bill always been a fan of our stuff.
And he would always say to us, Hey, you think
cops are funny. Come talk to me when you want
to do a firefighter thing, because firefighters
are way more funny than cops. Okay. And so, you
know, Lemmy and I were kicking around this idea.
And part of it was self -serving in the sense
that, you know, we wanted to, we'd spent many
years, you know, writing different TV shows and
trying to get TV shows in the air. And it's a
tough nut to crack. And we've tried to do it
for a long time. And we've constantly come up
with ideas about, you know, what we can capitalize
and what people like of us and whatever. And
it's like, hey, people like our mustaches and
people like us being in uniforms. And let's talk
about a firefighter show. And we were actually,
we were in Tacoma. at the comedy club doing a
comedy show one weekend, just Lemmy and I, and
it was raining out and whatever. And we're like,
you know, we pretty funny firefighter show premise
is that you put the show in the rainiest city
in the country. And then you can create the idea
that like super troopers where there's not a
lot of traffic, so you can have some fun. There's
not a lot of fires in the rainiest city, so you
can probably have a lot of fun. And so we were
kind of batting that idea around and we went
to cousin Bill. And we were like, hey, we're
thinking about it. He goes, that's a great idea.
You know, I got, you know, these stories. And
we just started kind of talking to him and kind
of building the world out a little bit and trying
to make this family feel, you know, of the show
and guys who like to have fun. And, you know,
it was funny because it was an inauspicious beginning
with the real Tacoma Fire Department. You know,
we had announced at the show. we were going to
make the show and we were, we were in Seattle
and we were doing, Lemmy and I were doing comedy
shows in Seattle. And the owner of the club came
back. The owner of the club came to the backstage
and he said, Hey, there are a bunch of Tacoma
firefighters out there and they want to talk
to you. And we're like, Oh shit. And so after
the show, we went out and we met with these guys.
There's like, you know, seven or eight guys.
And and they're like, hey, we heard you. We hear
you want to make a show about the Tacoma Fire
Department. And we're like, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah. We we're going to make that show. Like
and what the joke is that it's always rainy.
So we don't work. We were like, no, no, no. I
was like, listen, we work very hard, as hard
as any fire department. Like we I know we know.
And. And so we talked to them. We said, we're
not going to make you look bad. We're going to
make you look good. And look at super troopers.
That's what we're going for. And finally at the
end, one guy said, okay, all right, fine. And
then the guy reached into his pocket and he pulled
out a business card. And he said, if you need
a technical consultant, I'm willing to help you
out. Thank you very much. And we ultimately.
You know, ended up making, you know, obviously
making the show and ended up having a very good
relationship with those guys. But, you know,
in the beginning, I think, you know, the firefighters
were a little nervous that we were going to make
them bumbling idiots, you know, and that was
never our intention. It was always like, hey,
let's make a world, you know, very similar to
Super Troopers where you want to hang out with
those guys. They're good at their jobs, but when
they have downtime, as firefighters have, you
know. They're having fun and having a good time
and giving each other shit. So Cousin Bill was
also a fire historian. Have I got that right?
Yeah, he was kind of like the local fire historian.
He retired last year, and so he's kind of taken
that on. That's one of his jobs he's taking on
now, where he's kind of the official historian
of the local fire department. He's got all kinds
of great stuff. He's the kind of guy who... He
amasses funny stories in his head, you know,
firefighter stories, which is what makes him
a wealth of information for us. And he also is
a guy who was very much a stickler for, you know,
authenticity. You know, like he was always kind
of like, if I'm going to be on the show, my name's
on the show as a technical consultant. This stuff's
going to, you know, the guys who are sitting
in the fire department on Thursday night watching
this thing together are not going to call bullshit
on us. You know, we're going to make it. And
whatever, you have to do that sometimes. You
have to shade things sometimes. But for the most
part, he was very aggressive about making sure
that we wore our equipment properly and we had
the proper equipment. And he'd make fun of us,
but we'd figure out how to get the SEBAs on.
So what did your technical training look like?
And did you use that guy who gave you the business
card in the end? No, we didn't use that guy.
We became friends with a lot of those guys, and
I think they were very happy. We actually had
a couple episodes where they came down, a bunch
of the guys from the Real Tacoma Firemen came
down. We had like a firefighter ball episode,
and they were at the ball, and they were extras,
and we hung out with them for a few days there,
and that was fun. Earlier in the seasons, we
would do some promotional stuff up there. got
a great they would send us stuff to put on the
walls and things like that like real to call
here's a an axe and here's a whatever you know
and so we would we would do that so our relationship
ended up being you know really really great with
them um but the you know the the technical consultant
stuff that we do with bill you know bill ended
up being a guy who was always on the set with
us and um you know our show partly because it
was low budget and partly because that was the
premise it was like we don't really fight fires.
You know, we don't, we do like one fire a season
because that's all we can afford really. And
so it's more about hanging out in the station,
you know? So when we did have those big, you
know, shoots where we'd gear up and, and, and
you know, we'd fight a fire or whatever it was,
you know, Bill was very admirable being there.
Here's how you do it. Here's how you enter the
building. You know, here's how you do this. And
you know, we would spend a lot of time on that,
but a lot of it was just like, You know, for
Bill, it'd be like, hey, you know, we're on the
apparatus floor. You know, what's on the wall?
You know, or, you know, we're driving the engine.
What's inside the engine? Or, you know, it was
kind of like, you know, how is the hose packed?
And, you know, a lot of stuff like that. And
then it was terminology, you know, like he would
get very angry with us when we would say garage.
You know, it had to be the app floor or the apparatus
floor. He'd get angry at us when we would call
superiors by their first names, you know, as
opposed to captain and chief and whatever. And
so that was always kind of a fun, you know, and
he was, you know, not afraid to jump in and say
that, you know, and he'd get in a fight with
the prop guy. And it's like, that's not the proper
ladder that you would have in this situation,
you know, that kind of stuff. And we always got
like a lot of enjoyment out of that. But at the
same time, you know, we meet a lot of firefighters
now and say, hey, you know what? You know, I
think that is. you know, a very authentic feeling
show to us. And, um, and I think it's a credit
to cousin bill, uh, for all the years that he
spent in the, in the department and helping us
create that sense. You know, it is really jarring
when you work and I can't imagine being a cop,
how many times people get it wrong or the FBI
or something like that. But I worked on, um,
the world trade center film with Nicholas cage
and, um, God, I forget who directed it now. Um,
Oliver stone, but I was just simply a glorified
extra. It's all I was, but. I'd been in acting.
I became a stuntman in the end, but we got this
gig and I got a whole bunch of my Anaheim firefighters
onto the film. But it was the other side. We
had FDNY gear down to the point, but... When
it was the final cut, we were just like shadows
in the background. So the attention to detail
on that point was obviously wasted on a lot of
these shots. But when you see your average firefighters
in the scene, oh, my God, it's just awful because
they've got everything is wrong. Everything is
wrong. I hate to call this film out because one
of the guys from the film is on the show, but
there's a film, Paramedic, came out recently.
And this woman is doing compressions on a guy
with a Kevlar vest still on. You know, and it's
like, did you not ask anyone? Didn't you even
just watch a CPR video? American Heart Association
was something. But yeah, so even though it's,
you know, it's a comedy show, by making sure
all those things are right, it keeps us, which
is I'm sure is a lot of firefighters watch the
show. It keeps us engaged with the jokes rather
than what the fuck is that on his back? Yeah,
no, you know, we had a bunch of that kind of
stuff. And who's the guy that does like the green
screen? Who does the green screen gags where
they take the scenes from Fire Department Chronicles?
Jason. Yeah. We use his coffee. We have his coffee
as a thing. But Jason Patton. Yeah. So but Bill
was always cousin Bill was always like, I don't
want to be in that green screen thing. OK, so
we're going to make sure. And then we would start
making jokes about it because, you know, there
would be there was one firefighter show where
I can't remember what it was, but like, you know,
a guy gets hit by a meteor. And they're trying
to revive him. And, you know, the joke, you get
hit by a meteor, you're dead. You know, the thing's
going to go through you or whatever it is, you
know. And so, you know, we opened our last season
scene with a guy getting hit by a meteor, but
you find out it's a fake. you know, a fake TV
show, a firefighter TV show. But we, we started
to joke about what, you know, the firefighter
shows would do and, and, and then try to kind
of capture that in the thing. But, you know,
luckily we don't, like I said, we don't have
to get super technical cause we don't do a lot
of, you know. calls and fires and that kind of
stuff you know it's just you know what what feels
authentic around the station you know the way
we talk to each other and the and you know uh
what you know populates our world kind of a thing
you know and um but but the firefighters i talk
to they're like that is you know they they love
it because that is how they feel their station
is you know what i mean they're like you know
whatever it's a heightened sense of comic you
know whatever and you know there are some episodes
of ours that are just get you know very silly
But but for the most part, it's that sitting
around, you know, having your coffee and bragging
on another guy, you know, which is what a lot
of it is, you know. Absolutely. Well, it shows,
you know, the probie jokes. The calendar episode
was brilliant. The testicle popping episode was
hilarious. So, yeah, but it is all the things
that we do. And again, the real dark side of
what we do. And there's there's a huge amount
of that. firehouse yeah you know dark humor um
so gallows humor yeah that is how we offload
and i think that's why films like yours are so
popular in the fire service is just because it
allows us to just you know laugh and not think
about anything because if you look at the psychology
of laughter it down regulates the nervous system
that's why we laugh even if it's a dark joke
yeah and it's it's funny because we you know
we would try to every once in a while you know
like like bill or somebody will come up with
an idea where we were like, it's a little dark,
you know, like, but you try to find what the
funny part of is, or at least what the, you know,
the important part of it, you know, like we did
an episode on kind of the PS, the PTSD kind of
thing where, you know, you know you know, bill
would always talk about how, when he started
on the fire department, it was like, suck it
up. You know, you're a pussy. Don't, you know,
whatever. And then. realizing that you that the
firefighters see so much shit that you have to
release you know and that um you know talking
to people or whether it's you know therapy sessions
or whatever it is becomes an important part in
keeping you know mental health for the firefighters
and he said that's As I became higher up the
ranks, that became a very important part of our
lives and dealing with that issue. And we were
like, well, it's hard for us to deal with that
issue because then you have to deal with what
inspires that issue. And then you don't want
to get into a situation where you're making fun
of it. And so the trick is, hey, how do you do
the group therapy session episode without, well.
delivering a positive message um and not getting
too dark you know and because because firefighters
see so much dark stuff you know and and um the
other kind of great thing about this is as the
show has become more successful or more people
see it firefighters reach out to us with stories
you know and um you know some of them are like
well we found this dead guy behind a dumpster
and you're like well we can't do that we can't
do that i'm still waiting to find the the joke
where's the joke to us it's hilarious it's traveled
around his ankles yeah and so you know there
are all those things and you're like um and he
you know this we found this guy he was covered
in and we had to do this and you're like okay
we can't necessarily do that you know and the
funny thing is trying to figure out how to do
something like that but not you know So, you
know, there's so many dark things that firefighters
see. We just can't really tackle that world because
we're trying to keep it light and fun for people.
Well, speaking of that, just as a tangent for
a moment, it's been bizarre the last few years
seeing the politically correct element start
to put into the point where it almost squashes
out. everything it's like the person who develops
allergies and all they can end up drinking is
water you know what i mean it's like that so
in the world of comedy obviously that the parameters
are exactly where you're exploring you know the
south parks and daniel tosh and some of these
you know which i think south park is hilarious
because the fact that they haven't been cancelled
when they are you know literally putting pushing
the balls from all areas i think maybe that's
the key they push all the walls Yeah, amazing.
But so what about that? I mean, between the shows
and the films and also your live comedy, has
there been a resistance? Have you found the environment
changing or have you just stayed doing what you've
done and it just keeps working? Yeah, I think
mostly we stay where we are. I get it. I get
it that people maybe feel that the room is shrinking
a little bit or whatever. I don't know. I've
always. And the guys that we work with here in
Tacoma, it's always interesting to find how to
get around those problems. I always find that
to be the fun challenge. You know, it's like,
I think, you know, there's definitely this feeling
that, you know, that maybe people maybe are oversensitive
or whatever. But I feel like we've been able
to navigate that and still find all the funny
things. I think there's still plenty of funny
out there. And I think there's still plenty of
things that you can do. And so, you know, I know
there are a lot of writers and comics and whatever
kind of wring their hands about, you know, you
know, I'm being kind of restrained from doing
what I want to do. And I guess I just never felt
that necessarily. And, you know, maybe it is.
Another thing I think about it is that if you
are generally a good natured person, you can
get away with more. You know what I mean? Like
if you are a firebrand or and you are. known
for, you know, throwing those bombs and whatever,
people are going to focus on you. And when you
do it, they're going to attack you. But like
I said, our angle has always been, hey, we're
nice guys and we're good guys. And if every once
in a while you throw something out there that
maybe is questionable in, you know, whether,
you know, whatever it is, I think people give
you some leeway or at least that's what I found
for us. You know, I mean. there are definitely
some jokes that we have made, you know, in standup
or whatever, like, Oh boy, there's the, there's,
we're getting canceled. You know, it doesn't
happen. And I think part of it is because, you
know, we're not mean spirited guys, you know?
So maybe that's, maybe that's a good thing. I
don't know. Maybe that's a lesson. Absolutely.
I did the, the film, like I said, I did a TV
show as well. Two TV shows on the history channel,
portraying a pirate that looked like Brian May
from queen. And it was such a bizarre experience
because, you know, it's so steep. Yeah. And terrible.
And add to the fact that I'm the world's worst
actor as well, which is why I got in the stunts.
But then you do the live show. That's what I
did most of the stunts with was live shows in
Orlando and L .A., you know, Buena Park and all
these areas. We had a bunch of guys that we knew
who did that stuff. Yeah, I mean, it's a great
on -ramp for a lot of things. But there was no
comparison. When you do a live stunt show, a
pirate show, you know, a show in Universal, whatever
it is, you immediately get that audience reaction.
But then when you're on a set, you know, especially
a huge production, you know, you... do it and
then it takes an hour to reset and you do it
again and there's no real feedback and i've heard
a lot of people you know high level actors say
they have no idea how the film's going to turn
out because they're not in charge of editing
or anything so you know it could be amazing it
could be terrible and they put the exact same
performance on um what is it that you love about
the live stand -up compared to you know what
you're putting on screen well i think that's
the truth is that you know the immediate reaction
you know i mean the there's nothing like that
And it's like also the experimental kind of atmosphere
to fix things. So like if I have five shows in
a weekend, I'll try a joke out the first night.
Doesn't quite work. I can change it, see if it
works eight hours later, 12 hours later. If it
doesn't work, I can change it. There are great
things about being able to work that. You can't
do that in the TV show. You have to do that through
editing or in the movie. You do it through editing.
But the ability to do that live and to know,
you know, there are jokes that people laugh at.
You have no reason why they're laughing. You
have no understanding as to why they're laughing.
It's like, did they laugh at that joke? OK. And
then you find those jokes that always work like
that. And those are the great things about stand
up is like when you hit those moments and you
know that you have automatic reaction that you're
going to get. You know, it's much more of a much
more of a crapshoot in TVs and worse in movies
like TV. At least you can. you can throw a shitload
of jokes at the wall. You know, it's like, we've
done this all the time. It's like, well, you
know what? If that one doesn't hit, the next
one will, you know? And, you know, if that doesn't
hit, then episode two, three, four, five, whatever.
For a movie, it becomes very precious. And that's
why you end up, you know, test screening things
and re -editing them and stuff like that. But
that's the beauty of live comedy is that you
don't have to have that, you know? And that's
all you can be much more topical or much more,
you know, You can make fun of something that
happened yesterday. You know, you know, a show
like Tacoma will put like a topical joke in it
and then the world will not see it for a year.
And then that joke's bullshit. You know, it doesn't,
it doesn't mean anything. And you can't, you
know, live comedy is so much better than that.
And so, you know, I love live comedy, but I do
definitely, I love making. Part of why I love
making the TV shows and the movies is because
I'm in all the steps. You know, it's like you
make a TV show, an actor, you shoot it a year
ago and then you never see it. But for me, it's
my life every day, right? So I'm in the edit
room every day and I'm doing this, this and this.
And yeah, as the actor, you haven't thought about
it in a year, but I have been with it the whole
time and I'm crafting it and figuring out how
to make it work. And so that's still very satisfying
to me, you know. But I get it why, you know,
actors and comics and stuff love the live comedy.
And I like it too. I just didn't like traveling
around. Like traveling around was the biggest
pain in the ass to me of doing live comedy. And
Lemmy and I did it for 10 years, you know. But,
you know, I guess if I had my druthers, I would
stick with making TV shows, you know. I love
that part of it. You mentioned about a lot of
the stories you just couldn't make into an episode
just because of the darkness or whatever. Is
there one story that you've heard either from
your cousin or some other firefighter that you
wish you could, but you couldn't, but you can
tell it here. You know, I don't know all the
ins and outs of this, but cousin Bill had a,
he always had, he wanted us to make a, an episode
about, I guess an incident. I can't remember
what parade it was. It might've been the St.
Patrick's day parade in Boston about guys going
there and getting, you know, just wasted and
ended up in the back of a, of a, of a police
van, you know? And, and he always wanted us to
make like a parade episode where guys get drunk.
And part of it was like, dude, we can't make
a parade episode because we can't pay for it.
Like we can't, you know, we don't, we don't,
it's too big, you know? But, you know, there
was that thing. There were those kind of things,
those kind of debaucherous kind of things, which
we tried to kind of keep a little of a lid on.
And then, yeah, I think the other stories were
just the kind of much more traumatic stories,
you know. And it was like, you know, the people
that you found or the people you deal with or,
you know. A lot of their stories were about drug
dependency or people, you know, that kind of
stuff or people were strung out on this or whatever.
And it just, you know, it just didn't fit in
the in the world that we were trying to create,
you know. So, you know, it was more of that kind
of stuff. But then there were just, you know,
there were, you know, great stories that we heard
that we would put in. You know, it's like I remember
we were at a firefighter event in Austin. And
we were meeting with a bunch of guys, having
a great time talking to guys and hearing stories.
And one guy told us a story about when he was
a rookie. And we've talked about this story before,
so you may have heard it. And he was a probie,
and he joined the shift. And all the guys had
these tattoos. And this is the guy telling us
his true story. All these guys had these tattoos.
These goofy tattoos that were representative
of their shift. I don't know, like a unicorn
or whatever that was. I don't know. And they
told the guy, hey, these are our shift tattoos.
You have to go get this tattoo. And he was like,
okay. And so he goes and he gets the tattoo.
And he comes back and shows them the tattoo.
And all the other guys wiped theirs off because
they were temp tattoos. And they made him go
get this real stupid -ass tattoo on his arm.
And we were like, oh, my God, that's a hell of
a prank. You know, that's a thing. And so, boom,
we wrote that episode. and had a great kind of
little runner thing about that. But those were
kind of those real stories which you get from
these guys that are perfect, that fit so well.
And Cousin Bill would tell us these stories.
It's like, I think we put it in either the first
or maybe the third. I can't remember which episode
we put it in. Maybe the third episode. The story
about how a guy had to give mouth -to -mouth
to a cat. It's like they rescued a cat from a,
they rescued a bunch of people and the cat from
a burning building and the firefighters walk
out and they're doing CPR on someone and they
get a little closer and they realize the guy's
trying to revive a cat. And we thought that was
the greatest thing in the world. We put that
in that episode. And, you know, the more you
talk to the firefighters, every one of them has
got a hundred stories, you know, that are just
hysterical. I'm sure you have a million funny
stories. I'm a terrible storyteller, but they're
in there. I just need someone else to tell them
for me. That's what you need. And so what we
were finding is like, hey, can you make a TV
show out of this? Yeah, yeah. We got millions.
We got a wealth of stories. And we still have
a document that's like 40 pages long of stories
that are just so funny to us. And every episode
has one in them. Well, you talked about... discovering
this other side of our profession you know the
the the uh i guess you could say the the price
of service um were you aware of that through
having your cousin being in that world or was
that something that started to kind of unfold
as you started talking to more and more of our
profession oh it's definitely after the fact
after they unfold you know i mean i think um
I didn't realize, you know, how prevalent and
important it was to the community now in terms
of, you know, people's mental health and making
sure that people are OK on the job and that kind
of stuff. You know, it's like, you know, my cousin
will tell stories about guys who committed suicide
or guys who, you know, just end up couldn't deal
with it anymore. you know i don't think growing
up you heard those stories you know i think you
heard that that was the case but i think now
uh in a good way i think that those stories are
out there now so that people can you know i mean
we're just actors you know i i it's it's amazing
to think that you know day in and day out these
guys see these things and they see kind of the
worst things and whether it's you know, mangled
bodies in a car accident or whatever it is, you
know, it's like, they see the worst underbelly
of, of our world. And, um, and it's gonna, it's
gonna mess with your head, you know? And I think,
you know, uh, I didn't definitely, definitely
did not appreciate that until, you know, cousin
Bill kind of bringing things to light for us
and say, Oh, here's what we do. And, you know,
here's how we deal with that. And we're trying
to deal with that. And we're trying to. uh, counter
the old school, uh, idea or suck it up and, you
know, and, uh, you know, uh, deal with it, you
know, uh, that they're trying to counter that
kind of mentality now, which I think is a great
thing. I think, I think that's, it seems to me
what's important. So I, you know, to us, it was
like, let's not make fun of that. Let's not,
you know, let's support that and, and, and, um,
you know, maybe put like a, a kind of a fun or
if you can put a fun spin on something like that,
then that's what you try to do, I guess. Yeah.
Um, but I don't know, do you, do you find me
like, do you find that that's changed in your
career? Like over the, you know, over the course
of your career that the, the perception of that
kind of stuff has changed? Yeah, no, it's, it's
literally, I would say only, I don't know if
it's even nine years ago that we really started
talking about it. Um, this is one of the reasons
why I started the podcast, you know, after seeing
a lot of the dark side going to the funerals,
you know, um, and realizing that we were just
doing the same thing over and over again. strange
about the american fire services we're so siloed
you know you've got a city and they won't talk
which you you know you're going to illustrate
in the show you know police and fire don't like
each other city and county don't like each other
and so therefore there's no knowledge exchange
so everyone's kind of keeping themselves themselves
everyone's reinventing the wheel um but what
i had it was unusual is i had a very gypsy view
to the fire service i started in the miami area
i trained in orlando worked in miami then california
for a few years then orange county which is the
county that orlando's in and then reedy creek
which protects disney world the last five so
it's a very you know 10 000 foot view on everything
but so you know when my generation went in and
generations before it was all about service and
sacrifice courage and fitness and all the things
but then as you get into this point and they're
like wow you know people aren't doing well you
know we're so We're so beat down and tired that
a lot of times it's hard for us to even have
that realization because all we're thinking about
is the next call, the next shift, you know, my
kid's birthday party, whatever it is. So really,
when I transitioned out five years ago, just
to do this, to really try and be the voice for
this profession and networking with people from
all over the world, you realize this is a global
issue. You know, the Australian firefighters,
the British firefighters, they're all going through
a lot of these. And so now it's like, now that
we're talking about it, now we actually have
to act and not trying to be doom and gloom on
this conversation but at the moment there's a
hiring crisis too and i think it's because of
of this people are now understanding the whole
picture and unless we change it we aren't going
to have people lining up to do this job anymore
because even though it's the most incredible
profession which is why i advocate years after
taking the uniform off there are some things
that are really detrimental to the The human
and that person's family as well that we have
to address to put it back to this incredible
profession that we all adore. Yeah. And, you
know, it feels like it's also, you know, yeah,
trying to overcome the the mindset of the old
school, you know, is a big, huge part of it,
you know. And, you know, I think. You know, just
in talking to Bill and, you know, when he was
a rookie. Yeah, like you said, it's in the last
10 years, you know. And then in his thing, like
from an administrative point of view, it's those
issues that dominated his last few years because
the perceptions were changing and things were
coming out much more about, you know, how to
deal with this stuff, you know. And I found it
fascinating. And that's kind of why we want to
make an episode about it, but realize that it
was difficult to navigate for us in terms of,
you know, trying to keep it light and fun and
that kind of thing, you know. But I don't know.
Hopefully we can just provide some sort of enjoyment
for the firefighters anyway. Just kind of a light
release, you know, for the guys. Well, question
for you. I want to round off, but just one last
kind of lens from you because you do sit in a
unique place at the moment. We have done a terrible
job of storytelling what we do in this profession.
I would say only the brave, obviously Backdraft,
Ladder 49, are probably about the only ones out
there that really reflect what we do. And even
someone pointed out recently, which was a very
good point, even the reality television shows
that feature fire, the cardiac arrest always
survives. They always get the person out the
car. So again, it's kind of showing our successes
only. How do we as a profession do a better job
of branding ourselves, of educating the public
on what we actually do? Well, yeah, I mean, I
think, you know, and I can only speak from this
kind of like, I guess, lighter perspective of
it. But it kind of goes back to what I was saying
earlier. It's like part of the nice thing about
Tacoma, the TV show, is showing these firefighters
as real people. You know, it's showing them.
Not doing the call or fighting the fire. It's
them in their lives and how they're real people
who have fun and have friends and family and
that kind of stuff. I feel like that helps the
perception of firefighters in general. The more
we puncture the sense of these guys are invincible
heroes and more that they are real people. I
think it helps everybody. And I think, you know,
we try to do that in our very kind of light,
you know, non -message -y kind of way, you know,
but I think that helps the greater message in
the sense that, you know, if people can connect
with firefighters as humans, you know, I think
that helps everyone's perceptions more. It helps
push the world forward, you know. Absolutely.
I don't know. I don't know. That's just kind
of my perspective, I guess. Yeah, well, I mean,
I appreciate everyone's perspective. I have people
that are in literally branding and business and
people in entertainment. It doesn't matter. Just
obviously the way we've been doing it isn't working
very well. So I'm open to all suggestions, people
that might - Don't you think it's changing? Don't
you think it's like, it is progressing, don't
you think? I mean, it's getting, it's better
than it was, don't you think? Yeah, we're starting
to. I think as I live in an echo chamber, so
I look around and go, oh, everyone gets it. And
I forget that's because - in the show everyone's
coming on because they've they've brought solutions
so um but i think as long as you start it's the
same as to parallel it's the same with the division
that we've seen forced upon the us from both
sides the last eight years um it's the the more
that we can pull people back into you know the
middle you know, the more of a paradigm shift
that you can create. So you're not trying to
fix everyone straight away, but if you can just
grab one more department, one more firefighter
and keep, you know, pushing the, the improvements,
then eventually there will be a tidal wave and
it will sweep over the whole country and everyone
will benefit. Yeah. No, I think that's totally
true is that the more you bring people who disagree
or have opposing opinions or whatever together
for, you know, the communal good. And, and, you
know, I think that's a good thing. It's like,
you know, we've always joked about for us, even
our comedy is very purple in the sense that,
you know, we have, you know, our red state fans
and we have our blue state fans, you know, and
it's, you know, we have guys in uniform and we
have stoners and we put them in the same room
together and everyone has a big laugh. And I
think that's a helpful thing, you know? And I
think it's probably the same thing for Tacoma.
We have, you know, Fans on all spectrum of the
political view, but they all can watch the show
and have a good laugh at it. And to me, it's
that those things that remind us that we can
get past the divisiveness and enjoy each other
despite our differences. 100 percent. We got
way more in common than we have difference. And
most of the differences you can celebrate anyway
because they're unique. Yeah. Everyone can laugh
at a fart joke. 100 percent. 100 percent. Yeah,
and even a laughing baby. How can you not smile
when a baby starts laughing? You know what I
mean? That's contagious. So you've got four seasons
on Netflix now. What's True TV now? All streaming
on Netflix. I'm assuming you're probably going
to be creating more seasons of that. Talk to
me about what's coming as far as Tacoma and if
you have anything else in the pipeline for Broken
Lizard. I hope so. I mean, I hope we get to make
more. We've made these four seasons, and I think,
you know, whatever, not to get in the weeds of
the industry, the company that we work for has
been taken over four times, and we've had four
hierarchy shifts. And each time, I think, I don't
know, the new person cares a little bit less
about us. So, you know, we've been kind of overcoming
that, but luckily we've been doing the seasons.
And then this Netflix thing gives us a lot of
good exposure. So hopefully all that will lead
to us making more Tacomas because, like I said,
we've got to stack them. more of firefighter
stories, um, that we want to tell. And, um, hopefully
we'll get that opportunity. Um, uh, we'll see
how this Netflix thing shakes out. And then,
um, at the same time right now, we're, um, we're
writing super troopers three. Um, and, um, we,
uh, uh, uh, hopefully I would imagine maybe later
this year, we'll try to shoot that. It's weird.
Cause you know, For those who don't know, we're
coming out of these strikes. You know, the industry
has been kind of had legs chopped out of it by
the strikes that happened last year. And we're
just coming out of in a few months. So it's a
weird landscape where people are trying to figure
out what's still alive, what's dead, what's what
can happen, how we can move forward, how the
world has changed. But Super Trooper 3 seems
to be on track for us to be able to do that.
That's kind of the next big broken lizard project.
And then, yeah, Steve and I are selling some
other shows. We've been working on a couple of
things. We've been working on a military show,
actually, Steve and I, based on a lot of stories
and a lot of friends we've made in the military,
based on guys who like our stuff. And so we've
been working on that. And we've been doing this
podcast. We've been doing this companion podcast,
Talk Coma. It's a video podcast we've been doing,
which is on YouTube. I don't know. We're trying
to stay, we're trying to stay busy. You know,
I'd love to make more Tacomas. That's, that's
kind of the big thing. Now the podcast talk coma,
you advise people watch an episode, then listen
to the podcast. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. It's
funny. Like what happened was a couple of years
ago after we did season two, it was, it was COVID.
It was, you know, the pandemic and everything
shut down and, and our network, true TV and T
and TBS. They had a lot of sports that they lost.
They had basketball and, you know, they had March
Madness. They had baseball and all these things
got lost. And so, you know, we were in some meeting
with some executives and they were kind of lamenting
the fact they had nothing to put on the air.
And we said, well, you know, we've been thinking
about this companion show called Talkoma where
we talk about the episode, you know, and they
kind of laughed at us like it was the dumbest
thing in the world. And then. About half an hour
later, they called us up and said, were you guys
serious about that? And we said, yeah, we were
very serious. And they said, OK, let's do it.
And so after season two, we did a companion piece,
you know, like they do for like Walking Dead
or whatever. And we put it right on after the
episodes. And people loved it because it was
like we would tell real stories. We would have,
you know, a cousin Bill on. We would have, you
know, guests on and they would talk about the
firefighter stuff. We had. we found out one of
our fans was Stipe Miosic, the UFC champion,
who's a firefighter in Ohio. We had him on and
it was a fun thing. And so we decided we would
do it again at the end of the season. And then
it got a little bit derailed by the strike. And
so now we've got it back up and running again.
So it's a thing that people kind of liked in
the past and we brought it back. So it's a video
podcast that people can find on YouTube. And
it's a lot of fun. We have guests. It's a lot
of me and Lemmy making fun of each other is what
it comes down to. But, yeah, so we got that.
And then, yeah, we got our movie Quasi, which
is still on Hulu, too. That's still kicking around
on Hulu. If people haven't seen that, check that
out. That's a little bit of a departure. It's
a medieval period piece. With a chiropractic
twist to it. That's right. So, yeah, I mean,
we got a lot of stuff in the hopper. We're trying
to stay busy. Brilliant. Well, I want to throw
some quick closing questions at you before I
let you go. That's OK. Yeah. OK. All right. First
one. Is there a book or other books that you
love to recommend? It can be related to our discussion
today or completely unrelated. Books that I love
to recommend. Oh, my gosh. I'm terrible. I'm
terrible reading. My daughters keep giving me
books to read and I've been trying to do a good
job at that. They read all the fantasy books
now. But I try to get them to read the Stephen
King books. I was always a big fan of those when
I was a kid. And then we compare notes. They
think all the books that I have read were outdated.
There's better stuff these days. But I don't
know. I used to read a lot of scripts, man. Have
you read his book On Writing? Because I read
that right before I started my second one. I
read it long ago, yeah. I read it long ago, yeah.
But like that guy. wakes up at like 5 a .m and
he writes like for six or seven hours or whatever
every single day and i'm like oh my god god if
i could do that yeah i can't i have a hundred
books published you know yeah it took me i don't
know a long like two years to write my first
one and i'm think about the year and a half mark
of writing my second so clearly not even king
i end up reading just little biographies my kids
can't understand it like i just read biographies
of people like I just finished a biography of
John Bonham, the drummer for Led Zeppelin, called
Beast, which was awesome. That's an amazing story.
Yeah. And my kids are like, what do you read
biographies for? I don't know. Maybe because
I'm old. I don't know. They say truth is stranger
than friction a lot of times. That's why I love
this format. People's real lives are incredible.
Oh, I know. That's what we say. It's like the
stories that we get from firefighters, we couldn't
possibly make them up. You know what I mean?
The real things are just, you couldn't possibly
make them up. Absolutely. Well, we've talked
about obviously all, all the films that you guys
have made. Are there films or documentaries that
you'd love to recommend? Yeah. I mean, I, you
know, I, I love, I love a good comedy movie.
I love a good action movie though. I'm always
a good action movie guy. Like let me, I will
joke about that. You know, And you run through
the Schwarzenegger resume. We like to have a
good laugh about that. But I went to see, look,
I don't claim to be very sophisticated, but I
went and saw Die Hard in the movie theater two
weeks ago again. And God damn, I love that movie.
So I'm a simple pleasure guy. I like a good action
movie. Brilliant. What about guests? Is there
a person that you recommend to come on this show
to speak to the first responders, military and
associate professions of the world? Yeah, I mean,
well, whatever. I know I've been talking about
a lot, but Cousin Bill is a guy who is a great
guy to chat with. I mean, he has a zillion stories.
He's got a wealth of background in this world.
I think, you know. He's well versed in the issues
that firefighters face these days. He's also
running for office right now. He's running for
state representative in my town. Really? Yeah.
Yeah. So he's going to get a bigger voice. But
he's a great guy to chat with about these things,
I think. And then, you know, we had Stipe on.
I don't know if you've ever met Stipe before.
but he's such an amazing story you know i'm uh
we had him on our podcast and here's a guy who's
the ufc heavyweight champion of the world and
yet he's you know scrubbing toilets as a probie
uh you know and in the fire department um and
you know he has great stories about you know
they made him wear his heavyweight belt while
he scrubbed toilets And I don't know, I just
the marrying of those two worlds was just great
and inspired us to write an episode where Stipe
comes to visit our station. And we shot that
in the second season and or the third season.
And that was a blast. He's a he's a great. He's
a great guy to have on as a guest. Yeah, I've
tried, sadly. Yeah, there's a lot of these people.
There's the person between you and them. I haven't
had very much. I'm just going to leave it there.
I haven't had very much. And it was like over
a three -year period this happened. So, Stipe,
if you're listening, if you yourself want to
come on, the invitation is there. But, you know,
sadly, I tried and tried and tried. I'm a martial
artist myself, so I watched him go all the way
up the ladder. He's amazing. I can see the video
of him scrubbing the toilets and the humility
it takes to be at an absolute pinnacle in one
thing and have the humility to be a probie in
another area where you're actually service. I
think he's phenomenal. He was just a charming,
nice fellow. We had one incident where... We
were shooting a scene where he punches Gabe Hogan,
who plays the firefighter, Ike Crystal, and he
punches him. And whatever, we had set it up so
he wouldn't really punch him, you know, the fake
punch and whatever. And we're shooting the scene
and he goes to swing at Gabe and he caught him.
And Gabe goes down, you know, because Stipe's
hands are like the size of my head, like when
you see them, you know. And he just caught him
with a finger, like across the face or whatever.
And Gabe went down like a ton of bricks. And
Steve was like, oh, my God. And we have it on
camera. He's like, oh, my God. I hit him. I'm
so sorry. I hit him. And he felt so terrible.
And Gabe was fine. But it was like this moment
of like, oh, my God. His life flashed in front
of his eyes as Stipe's fist is coming at him
and grazes his face. That was great. That was
a great moment. And it was fun. It was fun to
have Stipe on. I'll see. I mean, I got, you know,
I don't know. I don't know what kind of ends
I have with steep anymore. I'll put in a good
word for you, man. That'd be great. Like I said,
the invitation has been there for a long time,
but yeah, I know, I know the first, the initial
time he was working with someone doing who they
were doing all this professional stuff. And I
know they parted ways and there was an issue
with lack of communication. So it, he may never
have heard the invitation himself. So yes, that
would be phenomenal if you were able to help.
Thank you. Okay. Okay. See what I can do. Brilliant.
All right. Well, then the last question before
we make sure everyone knows where to find you,
what do you do to decompress when you're not,
you know, on stage and doing all these films
and shows? It's funny. I've just had this argument
with my kids. My kids are, they age, they range
from like age 15 to 20 right now. And they've
asked me that question because they, Because,
I don't know, I just work, you know, like over
the last few days. Like we went to the East Coast
for the holidays and they went skiing and stuff.
And while they went skiing, I would sit in the
lounge or whatever or at home and I would just
be working and editing and whatever. But, I don't
know, I just like to hang out with my family.
You know, that's probably the biggest thing.
You know, we watch movies or we go, you know,
whatever, hiking and that kind of stuff. You
know, it's like. Whatever time I could spend
with the family, that's really my decompression
time. I love to watch movies and TV, but then
sometimes I feel like I'm doing it because of
work. I feel like I'm researching or whatever
it is. Sometimes it doesn't quite work out, but
just hanging out with the family is really my
decompression time. Beautiful. The entire four
series now are in Netflix. So that's where they
can find Tacoma FD. Where are the best places
for people to find all your other work and reach
out to you, whether it's social media or any
other area? Yeah, I mean, yeah, Netflix, you
can just stream like crazy if you want to. That's
great. And then, yeah, our latest movie is on
Hulu, Quasi. That's a broken lizard movie about
Quasimodo. And then I think all the other ones
are, you know, on the basic streamers and stuff,
Super Troopers and Beer Fest and Club Dread.
And people can check that stuff out. Slammin'
Salmon, another movie we made. And then for me,
I'm at Heffernan Rules. I think on pretty much
everything. Heffernan Rules on Twitter, Heffernan
Rules on Instagram. You know, we have Lemmy Heffernan
as our YouTube page. But I think those are, you
know, those are the handles that people. People
can hit me on it. I'm not a great social media
guy. Are you a good social media guy? I repost
a lot of videos of either first responder stuff
or kindness and compassion. I try and put a lot
of the good stuff out there. Me personally, I
don't look at social media apart from to find
those videos. So I would say, you know, outwardly,
yes, but inwardly, no, because I'm fully aware
of how those things could just suck you in. So
I try and leave my phone as far away from me
as I can. I feel like I could be better at whatever.
but sometimes we get some people to help us out
with that shit. Some young kid who knows what
he's doing. Yeah, exactly. Understands the algorithms
and content and all those other words that I
have no idea what they mean. Well, Kevin, I want
to thank you so much. Firstly, for, you know,
just, just coming on full stop. But secondly,
again, for this unique perspective that you have,
I mean, to do the comedy, you know, film when
it came to law enforcement, and now you're doing
the show coming from the firefighter perspective.
These are all, as I said, firehouse favorites,
hands down. I'm sure it's the same with law enforcement.
But they are, as you said, also humanizing the
men and women in uniform because we do become
a little two -dimensional, not only to the public,
but to ourselves as well. So I want to thank
you so much, not only for your work and what
you've done for our professions, but also for
coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Thanks, Ben. I mean, that's great. And congratulations.
you know, getting that message out, you know,
I think that's an important message that you're
doing there. So, but thank you. I mean, I, you
know, we like to think of ourselves as court
jesters. So, you know, you know, we just kind
of try to make people laugh, you know? So thanks
for having me on.