This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran
-owned and operated performance optimization
company that I introduced recently as a sponsor
on this show. Well, since then I have actually
been using my products and I have had incredible
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supplementation. So I began taking DHEA. BPC
-157 for inflammation based on the fact that
I've been a stuntman, a martial artist and a
firefighter my whole life. Lots of aches and
pains. Dihexa to help cognition after multiple
punches to the head and shift work and peptides.
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Now, as I mentioned before, the other side of
this company is an altruistic arm called the
Transcend Foundation, which is putting veterans
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free of charge. Now, Transcend are also offering
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And you can find that on jamesgearing .com under
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about Transcend and their story, listen to episode
808 with the founder, Ernie Colling. or go to
transcendcompany .com. Welcome to the Behind
the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James
Gearing, and this week it is my absolute honor
to welcome on the show researcher -turned -firefighter
Jenny Gremer. Now, in this conversation, we discuss
a host of topics, from her journey through education,
Alzheimer's research, her path into the fire
service, working with on -scene associates, mental
health toxic culture surfing and so much more
now before we get to this incredible conversation
as i say every week please just take a moment
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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
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men and women's stories so I can get them to
every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce
to you Jenny... grima enjoy well jenny i want
to start by saying two things firstly thank you
to aaron heller because i think that was the
one that specifically put us together, even though
I think we'd actually, you know, interacted on
social media before. And secondly, I think we
were both were a part of Walt Lewis's training
a few years ago in the Orlando Fire Conference.
So thank you to him as well. And then most importantly,
I want to welcome you to the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Thank you. I'm excited to be here.
So where on planet Earth are we finding you this
afternoon? So I live in Fort Pierce, Florida,
which is for those who are not from Florida.
or don't know the area, it's south of Orlando,
north of Palm Beach on the east coast. How is
Fort Pierce? Because my wife spent the last four
years in med school down in Davie, so Broward
County. And one of the plans that we had was
to move to Fort Pierce, which was kind of like
a halfway point. So I'd still be up in the Ocala
area when I needed to be, and then she could
go down south. But we ended up just saying that
300 miles was a better idea as a commute. So
talk to me about Fort Pierce. I absolutely love
Fort Pierce. I moved here in 2009 from South
Florida, and it is where I set up my life. It's
by the beach. I live very close to the beach.
I can walk across the street to the beach. It
was my dream to make that happen. I surf, so
it makes it really nice. But it's a growing and
developing city. The county is St. Lucie County,
which encompasses Port St. Lucie. And between
Port Pierce and Port St. Lucie, it is booming
right now. So everyone's starting to move here.
But I absolutely love Port Pierce. It was a nice
little kind of a small town feel compared to
growing up in South Florida. And it's surrounded
by water, which I love. We have the Indian River
Lagoon, the ocean. You get a little bit of country
out west. Well, you get the beach going east.
We have a nice little cute little downtown. It's
small enough where you can still know a lot of
people in town, although so many people are moving
in. It's definitely getting to be where you don't
know every local when you go to the restaurants
anymore. So but I love it. That's what's interesting.
I have the same here in Ocala. Beautiful, beautiful
place. But obviously, a lot of people are moving
here from all over the country as well, which
is which is great. apart from the fact that I'm
seeing all these apartment complexes and hotels
and all these other things being built, but the,
for example, local county fire department is
saying they still don't have any money to hire
extra people. So as a Florida resident that sees
construction everywhere, east, north, south,
east, west, north, I question that whole thing
where we're still told there's not the budget
when in our state specifically, it is blowing
up with construction. It is. It's definitely
something that I think a lot of fire departments
are going to be having a hard time keeping up
with as far as hiring and building firehouses
just because it's accelerated so quickly. So
we're turning it. Our small town is turning into
a larger city very quickly, I think. So, yeah,
I definitely think a lot of fire departments
are going to have to keep up. Absolutely. Well,
you mentioned South Florida. So start at the
very beginning of your timeline. Tell me where
you were born and tell me a little bit about
your family dynamic, what your parents did, how
many siblings. Okay. So I was actually born in
Hammersmith in London. Oh, really? Yes. And I
moved to the States when I was four with my parents.
We moved to Miami. I have an older brother. He's
about a year and a half older than me. And so
my parents got a divorce when I was younger and
I was raised by a single mom. So we lived in
Miami Lakes area for a long time until about
until I was about ninth grade and then moved
to a different part of South Florida. Eventually
moved to Boca. I went to three different high
schools, ended up finishing high school in Boca
Raton in Palm Beach County. And then. And went
to FAU there. So I did my undergrad at FAU. I
got a job offer in 2009 after I got my degree
doing research up here in Fort Pierce, which
is why I moved up here. And I finished my master's
degree through FAU. And that's how I ended up
in Fort Pierce in 2009. Well, let's go back to
Hammersmith. This is how these interviews go.
Was either parent British? My dad is British
and my grandma, his mom as well. Okay. And was
this one of the family dynamics where once the
parent left, you weren't able to see them again
or were you able to still stay in touch? My father
and I have stayed in touch here and there, but
we... no we don't really communicate any longer
so okay well the reason i asked that i'm not
trying to pry too much it's just it's amazing
how so many of us in uniform when you look at
early life there's nearly always struggles And
that can be a very positive thing. But I think,
you know, that draws you into uniform a lot of
times because, you know, for whatever reason,
whether it's a sense of abandonment, you're not
feeling good enough. And then you couple in the
positive things, which are, I want to help people.
I don't want other people to feel this pain.
So many of us have these kind of early life stories.
So that's, you know, what's interesting is more
often than not, you know, I would say 90 plus
percent of people, when you start talking about
early life, there are a lot of these significant
traumas. um you know perceived traumas at least
that uh i think more often than not forge a person
to be the right kind of uh human for a first
responder profession i i definitely think early
life affects pretty much everything you do in
your adult life so i could definitely see the
relation i i was very fortunate i have a very
strong mother um who really um She was strict
and tough when I was younger, for sure. But she
set quite an example. I mean, there wasn't anything
that we were ever lacking. She would make it
happen. And we had, she taught us to work hard
to go after what we wanted. And, you know, I'm
very fortunate. I had such a, you know, I have
such a great mother. So she was a very good role
model. What's the geographical background of
your last names is quite interesting. It's actually
Maltese. So my grandfather, my dad's father,
my papi, he's from Malta, which is, for a lot
of people who don't know where that is, it's
a little island off the boot of Italy. I say
it's Italian, but Malta was basically invaded
multiple times. It's got very deep water, so
very easy to invade with large ships. So it did
end up getting its own independence eventually.
But yeah, it's this small island. I think it's
about 17 miles long. And so my grandfather's
from there. It's where we get our Maltese cross
for people who don't know. That's very cool to
say. That's my bloodline crest that you're using
in the fire service. Yeah, exactly. I feel like
there was a lot of things that ended up tying
me to the fire service later on, you know. Absolutely.
Well, what about profession? What was your mom
doing as far as her career? Well, my parents
were both technically missionaries for a church
for a while. And then when we moved to the States,
my mom became a teacher. She taught special needs
kids. And then now she's been for, I don't even
know how many years she's been doing it. She's
what's called a support coordinator, where she
basically coordinates support for special needs
kids and adults, making sure they're getting
proper treatment care, if they can work a job
to make sure they're, you know, basically all
their needs are met. So she's been doing that
for a while now, probably almost 30 years. Have
you, and this is a, you know, I'm not sure if
you would have had this conversation, but have
you had the conversation as far as the metamorphosis
of the way the special needs community are perceived?
Because as we stand here now, like I've had Nick
Nickich on the show, who's a young man with Down
syndrome who did the Hawaiian triathlon. You
know, we've got all these adaptive athletes.
We've got people with cerebral palsy just crushing
marathons. And, you know, it's so. Beautiful
to see. And I feel like most people are absolutely,
you know, behind a lot of that community. Whereas
if you look at our history, the same kind of
individuals were institutionalized and kept away
from society. Right. Well, I mean, just from
my mom working, I haven't personally spent as
much time with a lot of her patients, but she's
got some very incredible people who she goes
to see and that she works with. Um, and yeah,
I, I guess, uh, the mindset has shifted a lot
on just, I think everything between, you know,
um, special needs, mental health, everything
has kind of been shifted to understand, uh, a
different perspective versus just institutionalizing
people. So, um, you know, a lot of things can
be explained chemically, like with mental health
and things like that versus, you know, before
they were just assumed. They weren't well institutionalized
and give them a lobotomy. So who knows? Yeah,
there's been a lot of changes, I'd say, for sure.
What about Miami Lakes? I was a Hialeah firefighter.
It's my very first department, which I think
is butted up against you. So talk to me about
the Miami Lakes area as far as your upbringing,
excuse me, your upbringing then. So I went to
Miami Lakes Elementary in Miami Lakes Middle.
It was a very diverse community. I was more of
the minority there. And it was great. I played
softball in one of the local parks there. But,
you know, I guess it was just, I don't know,
what I consider a normal upbringing. Hang out
with the neighborhood kids, play a home run derby.
you know, get in trouble, my mom would whistle
whenever it was time to come back home. And you
can hear it from the whole neighborhood. But,
you know, Miami Lakes was great. You know, we
had our moments. Our house got robbed. You know,
my mom, our car got stolen three times. So, you
know, me and my brother got robbed walking home
from school. Uh, so it, you know, there, it had
its difficulties, but eventually I, we ended
up moving to, um, to Pinecrest area, South Florida,
uh, in the middle of my ninth grade year. And
it was definitely culture shock after being in
Miami lakes for so long. Me and my brother were
like, not used to being around, um, not that
much, not as much diversity to say, you know,
and on top of it, it was just, you know. People
had lots of money and it was just strange. It
was like a whole different environment. It was
culture shock. But yeah, I mean, Miami Lakes,
you know, I didn't know any different from what
it was just a normal upbringing for me. But yes,
there was a lot of, you know, burglary and different
things over there. See, when I was in Hialeah,
it had this reputation of being dangerous. But
what I found mostly is it was just so densely
populated. house that used to have a yard had
another house on it and there were efficiencies
and you know so as a firefighter you know you
think about doing a primary search and there
might be two or three rooms that you have no
idea even there and then everything's got bars
on but um i just felt it was more poverty and
desperation it wasn't that they were you know
bad people like in anaheim california i saw full
-on you know Hispanic gangs murdering each other,
you know, constantly. So that there was a lot
more violence there than I saw in Hialeah, but
it was just so many people. And then a lot of
them were just so below the poverty line. Well,
I mean, you know, we had our struggles growing
up, there was a time period where we were going
through difficulty, and we ended up sharing a
two bedroom apartment with another family. So
me, my mom and my brother, you know, slept on
a mattress on the floor in one bedroom. And then
Um, this other woman and her two boys were in
the other bedroom. It was just, you know, part
of, part of life back then. But yeah, I mean,
it's, it was a little bit, that was pretty common,
I would say. Yeah, absolutely. Well, you mentioned
about playing softball in middle school. What
other sports did you play as you progressed through
high school? Um, well, I played softball and
baseball when I was younger. Um, and then I was
on the golf team for a very short amount of time.
I hated golf. I had a natural swing. It was like
a thing. Everybody was getting into golf and
my mom, since she was a single mom, she would
drop my brother off to go play golf and, or,
you know, for golf lessons. And I'm like hitting
balls at the driving range one day. And his coach
was watching me and I didn't know it. Um, and
he's like, how long have you been golfing for?
And I was like, I don't know, about five minutes.
And he's like, no, how long have you been golfing?
I'm like five minutes. And he's like, you have
a natural swing. I was like, don't tell my mom.
Of course he told my mom. So I ended up having
to play golf. My mom was very, um, you know,
she, um, she wanted us to play sports and be
the best at everything. So anyway, golf became
the next, the next thing for a while, but I,
I actually hated it when I was younger. What
was it you hated about it? I was just really
active. I wanted to run and jump around and golf.
It was just, I didn't like all eyes on me. It
was really quiet. You're lugging around this
bag. I just, I don't know. I was more into like
team sports, but growing up in like where I was
in Miami lakes, I was a really good softball
player there. But then when I moved to Pinecrest
where it was like a little bit more affluent.
Um, everyone had like batting cages in their
backyards and all kinds of stuff. And I was like
the worst one on the team that I ended up putting.
So it just completely changed the dynamic. I
didn't have the same skills of training as a
lot of people there, but I didn't, I didn't play
like a ton of sports in high school. Um, my,
my, uh, the most fit I ever got was when I decided
to be a firefighter, it completely changed my
life. Well, speaking of that, because I know
you got into that a little bit later, you touched
on your education. Talk to me about what you
were dreaming of becoming when you were in high
school. I wanted to be a doctor when I was in
high school. By the time I got to college, I
wasn't really sure I didn't have enough confidence,
I guess, in my... I went to three high schools
and I was kind of like over it, over school.
And so when I started at FAU, I was a photography
major. Um, and, um, I switched majors quite a
few times. It was photography. I went into like,
um, undecided. I did psychology. I switched it
to, um, uh, what did I switch it to? Uh, well,
anyway, I switched it a bunch of times. Finally,
when I got a D in photography and I. Got an A
in a biology class that I didn't even go to and
barely studied for. I decided maybe I should
switch. So I went ahead and was like a few years
and became pre -med. So it took me six years
to get my bachelor's because I just didn't know
what I was doing. I changed degrees so many times.
What happened to that path? Because I saw on
LinkedIn, I got this right, my printer's not
working properly. You were an invertebrate cell
culturist. So that doesn't sound like a doctor.
No, it's not. So basically, yes, I became an
invertebrate cell culturist for a while. I forgot
it says that on LinkedIn. I never go on there.
But basically, my overall GPA wasn't that great
from all the undecidedness in my undergrad studies.
So I went ahead and decided I was going to get
a master's degree. My plan was to do a master's
on thesis, study for the MCAT, boost my GPA and
go to med school. So the day after I graduated,
the FAU has a satellite campus up here in Fort
Pierce at Harbor Branch. It's a marine biology
institute. And the day after I graduated, we
came up here to visit my brother and see where
he was living. And we ended up meeting. I checked
out the campus because he was he was a marine
bio major. So we checked out the campus up here.
And I ended up meeting the director of the biomedical
marine sciences department in a CVS. And my brother
recognized her and she basically, you know, just
was like. And what do you do? And I told her,
oh, I just graduated yesterday. And she's like,
and when? I was like, I got a bachelor's in biology
and I'm planning to get my master's in biomedical
sciences and, you know, you know, study for the
MCAT, go to med school. And she said, oh, well,
I'm the director of the biomedical marine sciences
department, you know, over here at Harbor Branch.
And I said, oh, really? And she said, do you
have a job? I said, I'm a bartender unless you
want to give me a better job. And she said, I
think I do. And I literally, that's how I ended
up here. I, she offered me a job right there
in CVS. We had a meeting a week later and then
I moved up to Fort Pierce and started working
for her. She became my thesis advisor. I ended
up doing a thesis. She convinced me. Um, so yeah,
that's how I, uh, so basically I got this job,
which was supposed to be while I'm working on
my master's degree. She said, since you're doing
all this research, she wanted me to immortalize
the sponge cell. Now I was not a, um, I was not
a Marine biologist. I didn't know anything about
Marine anything. I was pre -med, uh, human biology.
I knew a little bit. I took, you know, bio one
and two. Um, and she, uh, she's like, oh, I want
you to immortalize this sponge cell. And I'm
like, okay, great. Yeah, I'll do that. It was
one of those like fake it till you make it. I
was like, I'll just read a bunch of research
papers and figure out what she's talking about.
But basically when I started working for her
as a lab assistant, which was like doing invertebrate
cell culture, she's like, since you're doing
this project anyway, you might as well turn it
into a thesis. So a one -year non -thesis program
turned into a three -year thesis program. And
it took a while. So by the time I finished my
master's thesis, I was kind of burnt out and
didn't really feel like doing another, you know,
however many years in med school and residency.
I ended up actually taking off to Panama for
six months and living there before I came back
to figure out what I was going to do next. How
does one immortalize a sponge cell? Does it have
to excel in battle or something? Or what's the
process? Well, you know, it's funny you say that
because my boss didn't tell me she'd been working
on it for 30 years. And she wanted it to be my
master's thesis project. I ended up changing
my project. But basically, the goal is to have
a continuously dividing cell line in a lab, which
we have from human cells, which originated from
Henrietta Lacks, right? So we have like a continuously
dividing human cell line, but they hadn't been
able to produce it with sponge cells, which is
like the lowest. uh form you know the lowest
animal the most simple animal of the animal kingdom
and yet there's still so much we don't know about
it but the whole reason why we were they were
trying to basically grow sponge cells in a lab
setting was because um they they make these uh
that part of the research at harbor branch was
to find um chemicals or some secondary metabolites
basically bioactive compounds that they test
against cancer cells so basically There's tons
of like novel compounds that they find in marine
organisms like sea cucumbers and coral reefs
and sponges that they test against cancer cells,
you know, for new medication. So my project ended
up switching to a sponge because I did not, in
fact, immortalize the sponge cell. But I ended
up switching to a project where there was already
a sponge called Axonella corregata that created
a tumor suppressant compound called Stevencene.
So it was basically my project became how can
I make that sponge overproduce the compound by
different stressors and things like that and
checking its gene expression. That's what I ended
up doing for a while. It's so crazy. I was just
talking to one of my guests, Angela, I just had
on the show and she was in the holistic space
too. She actually used Ibogaine, so a psychedelic.
to reverse her autoimmune disease. So you hear
normally a lot of the mental health benefits,
but this was actually a physiological benefit.
But she was also talking about bee stings and
cancer. And apparently there's evidence showing
that that will kind of be almost like nature's
chemo without destroying the entire body. And
then fingers crossed, you hope that it restarts
all the good cells again. This one actually supposedly
leaves the good cells alone, but I'd never heard
that before. Yeah, I haven't, I haven't heard
of that, but I mean, there it's, I think a lot
of our health is based on lifestyle and nutrition
for sure. Um, there's a, there's a lot of things
that you can do that I think really make a big
difference in cancer. Plus cancer research is
difficult. I mean, they find, um, for example,
Steven scene, they, they found, you know, reduced
tumors and, um, It still is not a drug that's
used because. You know, there's a lot of preventatives
and, you know, checks and balances to try and
make something be like a cancer drug. And if
it doesn't make, you know, big pharma lots of
money, it isn't probably most likely going to
make it through. But, yeah, I mean, it's really
interesting. There's like there's something that
like drives me crazy that I kind of like want
to talk about with cancer real quick is. You
know how everyone has like these nicotine pouches
now and they're like, oh, it's a nootropic and
all this stuff is in. And, you know, when I was
in college, I took a biology of cancer class
and there was and it was more based off tobacco
smoke. But obviously, everyone knows that cigarettes
cause cancer. But like as far as carcinogen goes,
like carcinogens are caused by just about everything.
Right. like literally everything like you know
polyester in your clothing leeches plastics and
you you know using teflon pans and inflammation
of any kind in your body but most of the time
what a carcinogen is doing is affecting your
dna right it's causing like a mutation or a mismatched
like base pair and all these things but cigarette
smoke actually attacks specifically it doesn't
attack your dna it attacks a protein well it
attacks It attacks a gene that creates a protein
that actually protects your DNA. So you have
this protein called P53 that basically goes around
fixing all the issues with your cells from carcinogens.
Like there's a reason we're not all riddled with
cancer when we have all these carcinogens we're
taking in continuously. And P53 is something
that goes around and protects you. It's basically
like when he talked, it was Dr. Hurtman, when
I took biology of cancer, he said it was like
the mother protein. Um, and cigarette smoke and
everything affects the gene that produces that
protein. The TP 53 is the gene. Well, years later,
everyone's promoting nicotine right now. And
there's lots of people that are like, it's just
nicotine. It's not tobacco, which has all the
other additives. And yes, there are benefits
that they've been proving for nicotine, but I.
I'm over here like, what are we talking about?
Is there still not the issue of P53 and its effects,
right? So I dug a little deeper to make sure
that I'm not crazy and the research hasn't changed
because I think everything should be based off
of actual science and validity when you're going
to do something or, you know. prove something.
And with nicotine, they're like, oh, well, it's
got all these cognitive benefits and it may help
with Alzheimer's and all that. And that's great.
But you still have to consider the risk versus
reward because it does still have effects on
P53. The one thing that's going around trying
to prevent you from cancer and over 50 % of cancers
have a mutation in the P53 gene today. When you're
considering nicotine and using it as a stimulant
and just using it in its pure form, they've done
studies where it's not just inhaling it through
tobacco smoke. They're using pure nicotine as
an injection or ingestion in different studies,
and they found that it still does increase tumor
risk. Basically, when you have a gene mutation,
it causes uncontrolled cell growth, which turns
into a tumor, and P53 will stop that. That's
my rant. I just wanted to put it out there because
there's so much research right now promoting
nicotine and I just, you have to have your risk
versus reward. There's other ways to improve
cognitive function like using lion's mane or
something like that that's a little bit healthier.
But anyway. I'm so glad that you know, ran away.
That's why I love these long form conversations.
Cause you know, we, of course we're going to
get to firefighting, but this is, you know, this
is what I call the space between the lines, people's
life stories and experiences. And if you look
at a lot of studies, I was talking to a few fire
researchers recently, you know, we use that term
culturally competent clinicians when it comes
to mental health, but I realized there's a massive
need for culturally competent research. Because
you will get someone, for example, who's never
really even been around firefighters and then
they'll do spend all this time and money on,
you know, is the 4896 better than the 2472 rather
than going, well, what's the actual question
we need to answer? You know, maybe we should
say, well, this 56 hour work, let's compare that
to a 42 hour work. Now that's a study worth doing.
You know, what are we doing to these people?
And there's so much research out there showing
that sleep deprivation shift work is a known
carcinogen. But again, there's that solid evidence
and the fire service is turning their head and
the same with the nicotine thing. I'm sure there's
studies that show benefits, but who's funding
those studies? Is it the tobacco companies? And
then what was actually that parameter of benefit
compared to, like you said, exercise, ice baths,
lion's pain, whatever the holistic alternative
is? Yeah, absolutely. I think that this is where
science and research is so difficult because
you can basically prove anything right, right?
You can, there's so much research on there's
benefits to this and then someone else will do
a study and there's negatives. And I actually
believe in on both sides, right? It's really
difficult to look at the science and you kind
of have to have like, I always say like your
risk versus reward, where they have done studies
that nicotine is assisting with Alzheimer's.
Now they don't have as many like long -term effects
on like. how far nicotine actually benefits you
so like the studies aren't as long term as they
you know they haven't been studied for as long
but um there are cognitive benefits yes it does
help stimulate you but like really are you going
to take that risk knowing that it's affecting
the protein that's preventing you from cancer
right so there there's lots of things that you
can argue either way i mean just you know brown
rice versus white rice right they have like tons
of studies and you can you can look at both of
them like which is healthier for you one is like
a whole grain one you know the other one it's
like oh well right white rice isn't good for
you but then it you know white rice doesn't contain
like a lot of like the oxalates and different
things that can cause issues it's it's really
what research you study and it can get really
overwhelming because a lot of a lot of health
things have have points on both sides, right?
So it's really trying to sift through that and
pick, like, the overall best choice. I have a
hard time debating with people, especially firemen,
because they don't, like, usually research real
studies or use, like, legitimate research sites
to base stuff. But it's very, like... I always
have an open mind. Like I'm not because when
the nicotine thing came up, I was like, OK, well,
I remember in college about P53. I wonder if
that still applies. Was it more just cigarette
smoke? There's so much research promoting it.
You know, a lot of people are using it. It gives
you a dopamine effect, but it gives you a dopamine
effect because it's an addiction. Right. So it
causes that quick dopamine. It causes. because
of that it causes addiction and therefore like
a lot of people want to have good reasons why
they can continue on with their addictions right
so but like we're doing the continued research
it was without without fail still showing that
yes nicotine still has these effects so it's
just everything you research there there there
are going to be positives and negatives to all
of them you just have to like there could be
positives and negatives to alcohol Right. It
depends on the amount you're drinking. It can
still cause inflammation in your body. But a
lot of a lot of everything that you're putting
in your body or like putting in your life is
going to be dependent on how healthy you are,
which is actually scientifically proven. You
fight more inflammation and your immune system
works better by being happier and having good
relationships in your life. And it completely
affects the way things respond in your body.
Everything can be altered. It's just, I could
go on about all this stuff forever. So what you're
saying, if I can sift through the data, is if
we had a global pandemic, maybe don't tell people
to stay in their homes, watch TV, eat fast food,
and not see their family or friends ever. That's
like the worst thing you can do. Note to self,
America. Yeah, they've already been proving how...
So Dr. Hartman, I keep referencing him. Dr. Hartman
was an instructor at FAU my last semester, and
he taught biology of cancer. And he said a bunch
of things that now they're just... bringing into
light. He said that you needed to get at least
15 minutes of sun a day without any sunscreen.
He said you needed to eat a handful of blueberries
because it's important to have antioxidants.
He said that macrophages in our own immune system
is what's going to help cure most cancers and
things and lifestyle and exercise and eating
healthy. He was promoting that in 2009 when I
took his class and it's just now becoming more
and more apparent and I love it. you know when
i took his class it was it was blowing my mind
just some of the things he was saying so yeah
i think sunlight and screens and or not using
screens and getting outside and moving your body
and getting your lymphatic system moving and
you know detox all these things are super important
for your well -being i mean they've proven relationships
how much it affects your life right like loneliness
can be just as deadly as smoking 15 cigarettes
a day right um being in a relationship, but a
healthy relationship can actually make you live
longer. It can increase your immune system. It
reduces your cortisol levels, but obviously the
opposite is also true for a toxic relationship.
So it's just, and there's this thing called the
dependency paradox, right? Which is. It's more
an attachment theory. I like to read psychology
stuff sometimes. So attachment theory is just
the ways in which people are in relationships.
There's like a secure attach, anxious attachment,
avoidant, and then disorganized. But basically.
There's this thing called the dependency paradox,
right? Where we're taught to be like, you got
to create your own happiness. You have to do
things that make you happy and nobody should
affect your happiness. But in reality, people
affect us all the time. In fact, relationships
are the most important things we have in our
lives, right? It affects like... how you are
at home. It affects how you are at work. It affects
the choices you make. I mean, a lot of times
relationships might be the most important thing
you have going on. And what the dependency paradox
says is basically everyone is dependent in some
way on their relationship. And this could be
other types of relationships, not just partnership.
you have a dependency whether you like it or
not on these relationships but the healthier
the relationship the more you actually become
independent which is why it's called the dependency
paradox so the more you can rely on someone and
feel trusted have trust and feel secure the more
you're able to go off and do your own thing and
be an entrepreneur go work on your life create
all these things because you're secure and you
don't actually have to worry about that that
part of your life so it's kind of interesting
how we're always taught to just you know, make
your own happiness. No one can affect you, but
I mean, people affect us all the time. And when
you're in some sort of toxic relationship, whether
it's a, you know, a friendship or whether it's
work related or whether it's home life. You can't
really thrive. You think about it, you're not
really thriving. And I think a lot of the mental
health issues with firemen, it's truly like our
relationships that affect us almost more than
the calls. That's just compounding effects, right?
It's our relationships with our, you know, who
we're with at work, our relationships at home.
So, you know, it really all ties in. It's been
really interesting kind of unpacking all of this
the last almost nine years now. It's crazy. You
know, these kind of aha moments that I've had
as a sponge myself, an invertebrate. But the
big awakening for us was the impact of unaddressed
childhood trauma on us. And addressed, I truly
believe, post -traumatic growth, you can turn
that into a strength. So I think it's not, you
know, something to be, you know, sad about. It's
just we have to see it, identify it, work through
it, and then create that strength. Oh, my goodness.
Sleep deprivation, that was one that really made
me start this conversation in the first place,
this podcast, the impact of that on everything,
including our mental health, not to mention cancer
and all the other things. But then the most recent
one was the impact of organizational betrayal
and toxic working environments and how much that
factors into the mental health struggles of our
first responders. If you're a police officer
and you had a justified shoot and then your organization
throws you under the bus or... You micromanage
by, you know, your fire chief or whatever it
is. You speak to these super motivated, passionate
firefighters. And it's not, you know, the job
that is beaten down. It's the fact that they
get no support. It's the fact that, you know,
there is that toxic environment. And so I think
that has to be addressed. Because, I mean, there's
one really tragic story. A friend of mine who
is a movement, you know, strength and conditioning
coach. And he featured a few Southern California
firefighters in this video they did for one of
the companies. And one of the young women ended
up taking her own life a few months later. And
there was supposed to be organizational bullying
going on in that particular environment. So this
is something that we need to talk about because
if the wrong people are in positions of power,
of leadership, it can create such toxicity. It
can literally destroy an entire department. I
think it's one of the biggest cancers of the
fire service. I truly, I think it, um, you know,
being in the position I'm in being a female in
the fire service and being an instructor in the
fire service, I've had my share of, um, bullying
my, my different, uh, you know, there's been
some difficult times I've really had to work
through. And I will say, um, having the support
of your crew or, or positive. people on mentorship
in the fire services is it's night and day. It
changes everything. Um, I went through a really
difficult time and I, I, you know, I was, I was
having a difficult time at work. I was having
a difficult time in my personal life and I was
ready to leave the fire service. Um, thank God
for, for people like Aaron Heller, my boss, um,
for on -scene training associates. He, um, him
and all the guys that work for that company,
uh, they are true gentlemen who have, who. really
helped me through some really difficult times
in my life and and you know you have these amazing
firemen that um that truly are family like it's
it's incredible because the fire service can
be the biggest family but it can be a toxic family
or it can be a super healthy amazing family that
you um absolutely like needed and it's just a
hundred percent I think I think what you're talking
about with the mental health and um betrayal
in the in Whether it's your department or your
crews or different things, it completely changes
your experience as a fireman. I think it's the
thing that affects your mental health more than
anything. It's been almost sad is the best way
of putting it, I think, to pull the curtain back
on the profession that I love so much and see.
in some areas, so much cowardice. And what I
mean is I'm not talking about you with the leather
helmet and your mustache beating your chest.
I've made entry on some, you know, barn burners.
I'm talking about moral courage. So standing
up, whether it's fighting to be with your family
when you should be, rather than rolling over
and taking mandatory overtime after mandatory
overtime and not doing anything about it, or
whether it's pushing back on, you know, needing.
fitness standards in the fire service and then
the same with you know the uh rising through
the ranks or even union leadership like there's
so many areas that massively affect us that there's
so much cowardice around and it's been like locally
here trying to get people to just stand up and
say you know it's why is this always on our shoulders
you know you are understaffed it's your lack
of leadership and we're we're paying the price
and my my child and my wife or my husband or
whoever it is They are paying the price when
you still go home at five o 'clock every day.
So that's what I struggle with is a moment is
I see all the tick tocks with these fucking heroes,
you know, doing a forceful entry prop in their
shorts and T -shirt or duck walking, spinning
the hose around, around. But that's not that
doesn't mean anything. That's just narcissism
where real heroism in the fire service is actually
doing the right thing. And that means on scene
being compassionate, being courageous when you
need to and make an entry on those dangerous
situations. But it also carries over to when
you go back to the station and your working environment.
So for me, it's a real call for service for the
right kind of person to be put back in the fire
service. Because I'm seeing there's a lot of
wrong kind of people. If you can't even fight
for your own fucking family, what are you doing
wearing the badge? Yeah. No, I couldn't agree
more. And, you know, when I joined the fire service,
I was... A hundred percent. It was, it became
my life. It was everything, everything, every
day off that I spent was going to a conference,
a training, a class. Um, all I ever wanted to
do was train every, every crew that I, um, I
worked with, I'd show up at work and be like,
so what can we train on today? I drove them crazy.
Um, I was, I was just obsessed. And, um, It really
has that, it can have that culture, can have
that hold on you if you make it your life. And
one thing that I learned through different difficult
experiences was how important it truly was to
have things outside the fire service. Because
when things start to go wrong and that's all
you have to depend on, it really can mess with
your mental health, like truly. But yeah, I mean,
it is sad. There is a lot of people who are higher
up that are making a lot of decisions and doing
things that are definitely making things worse
for us to just be able to do our job and to do
it well and to do it efficiently. And not to
mention, I mean, the fire service is already
filled with, you know, you have really amazing
people, but you also have a lot of people who
are. so judgmental and egotistical and they,
you know, they're going to assume how you're
going to be just by looking at you. Like, you
know, obviously being an instructor and a female
in the fire service, I've had a lot of people
judge me for who don't know me, who just assume,
you know, that I'm not going to be good at my
job or that I'm not going to train or, or what
am I doing teaching and who do you think you
are and all these things. And it's truly like,
we have this thing where you always say you can
learn from anyone, but that's not always actually.
Right. Like people don't truly treat you that
way. There's, there's so much, you know, issues
with ego and, and narcissism instead of just
saying like, are we doing the right thing? Are
we helping people? Like, you know, if somebody's
struggling, help them don't judge that. Like,
you know what I mean? Like, I don't know that
there's a, there's a big role in having the right
mentors in the fire service. And there's a lot
of people who've been put into power that make
things worse instead of better for sure. So,
I mean, I couldn't agree more. I had Al Benjamin
on the show. FDNY Rescue One legend stayed at
the firefighter rank, which I did as well. I
mean, I think like Al, he probably got to the
point where he's like, I don't want to be in
the front seat. You know, this is too much fun.
And that's where I was at 14 years. He was so
humble and he had this whole thing that, you
know, of course, the new guys don't know what
they're doing because they haven't been here
30 years. So, you know, as long as they're willing
to learn, as long as like you said, you know,
you're asking to be shown how to do things. He
was like, this is this is what you do. And yet
you see with this other kind of person that you're
talking about that there, you know, snide remarks
from the lazy boy like, oh, he's fucking you
guys. Like, well, you know, I grew up on a farm,
for example. I know how to ride horses and muck
out stables, but I actually didn't know how to
take apart a chainsaw and change the chain and
put it back. I wasn't, you know, felling timber
on my farm. So people showed me how to do that.
People showed me how to throw ladders, how to
pull hoes. That was other people sharing their
information. And to think that you would then,
a year, two years in, be irritated by someone
else wanting to learn, wanting to be shown how
to do things. I mean, again, you're talking about
narcissism. That's the ultimate narcissist. Like
this true, humble veteran firefighter is someone
that's going to take you under the wing and say,
let me show you. Now, if you don't get it on
the third time, I understand the frustration.
But, you know, initially and I'll always want
to learn from other people. I've had coaches
on here that asked me how I train people. I'm
a white belt weekend warrior coach at best. But
they're asking me, what do you do when you coach?
That's the kind of true veteran that we need.
The journeyman or journeywoman. in a profession
that's constantly learning and constantly wants
to teach. Yes, absolutely. I've been very fortunate
spending so much time at conferences and trainings
that I've gotten to know a lot of really amazing
people in the fire service, people that I've
gotten to work with and teach with and teach
alongside. And one of them is Captain Morris,
Robert Morris from FTNY. And he, he, is one of
like the most amazing men i've worked with in
the fire service because he he barely says he
doesn't say much right he observes a lot he um
but he's over here uh like the king of fourth
century right and you know we have the rex tool
named after him and his son uh and it's just
like I was very fortunate. He got placed in a
group that I was teaching with at FDIC one year
and getting to learn and observe from that man
was amazing. It was actually a very uncomfortable
position for me. I basically was a lead at FDIC
and they put him in my group for me to be in
charge, which was very, not only humbling, but
a bit overwhelming. But he was probably the most...
one of the most incredible people I've ever met.
He was like, whatever you think we should do.
And he was always supportive. He I had this thing
where I think when you're an instructor, one
of the things that happens is you don't get to
see what everyone else is teaching, which drives
me crazy. I always want to know, like, what are
they doing? So when I had my group, I had every
like before we went to go teach at FDIC, I had
everybody in my group teach their section to
each other, like to our group. So, um, it was
really cool to learn from him and he's just so
humble and he always, it's just, there's so many,
there's so many men in the fire or people in
the fire service that, um, really lead by example
that always have stayed humble. And that's how
he was for sure. And, um, just being able to
work with people who like. Those are true firemen
to me, the guys that do their job, that are there
to help, that are ready to learn, that are ready,
that he, I mean, he's in his, I'm not sure, I
think. late 70s but he's still doing everything
and you know he's trying to carry plywood up
a ladder and he's like I'm all like oh do you
need some help and he's like why don't you go
check on some other thing you know he just he
wouldn't let me help but it's just like he's
he's the kind that leads by example and there's
still a lot of really great firemen that are
out there but yes there is there's like this
ego that's taken over that really is is is such
a different viewpoint of of like what you originally
thought when you get into the fire service, right?
You, you know, you're, you want to leave the
job better than you found it. You want to have
respect for the, for the badge, for the uniform,
for the job, for the citizens, you're doing it
for them. And a lot of the other things get in
the way of all of that. And it's, and it's usually
egos and attitudes and things where people are
trying to portray a certain, a certain thing,
but that's, that's not what's coming out. Right.
So it's just, yeah. It's an important conversation.
Like I said, it irks me, the social media, Insta
heroes that put themselves out there. There's
a difference between sharing a different technique,
but you know who those sites are. We know who
those people are. They themselves are humble,
but there's this thing that if you just buy a
leather helmet, grow a mustache, and then film
yourself, like I said, on a door prop or duck
walking, that all of a sudden everyone's going
to go, yeah, you're the most courageous firefighter
I've ever known. Rather than just getting on
with your fucking job and learning for a while
and attending the conferences and fighting for
time off and fitness standards and mental health
and all the things that will make you a better
firefighter. But, you know, I get pushed back
on the 42 -hour work week. Like, oh, the 48 -9.
Like, listen to what you are saying. You're saying
that you would rather be away from your family
longer and perform worse because sleep deprivation
is making you a shittier firefighter and paramedic.
than actually have the guts to stand up and say,
you know what, the way you've been doing it is
wrong. That's real courage. I want to be home
and watch my kids. I don't want to miss that
ballet recital or, you know, those first steps
or whatever it is. My family is even more important
than the fire service and I adore the fire service,
but they always came first, which is why I work
for four departments. That was always behind
it. So, you know, it's just, it's a call to action.
It's a call for real courage because we, Newsflash,
we're not getting the fires that, you know, our
forefathers did. We're just not. So I think the
fragile egos are trying to masquerade like, oh,
but look at me on the fire ground. Like, yeah,
go train. But, you know, the fact that you, you
know, are doing those back to bed calls and showing
compassion and empathy, that's equally, if not
more important than making entry and putting
out a kitchen fire. So embrace the whole position.
Don't let your ego try and project that it's
only the fire part that's important. Right. Well,
I mean. Yeah, there's so many things that, you
know, what's funny is a lot of people are like,
oh, you're pre -med. How did you become a fireman?
And I got to say, being a fireman is probably
one of the most difficult jobs there is because
there's so many things you have to know. And
it's, you know, obviously your firefighting skills,
but you have you have to. understand and know
uh vehicles uh cars so you know how to dismantle
them and break them apart right you have you
have to know building construction you have to
understand i'm on the um special operations team
and we also do hazmat so that's you know all
those specialties trt and hazmat is just overwhelming
to the amount of knowledge you need to know it's
like you really have to know a little bit about
everything and obviously in florida we run like
90 medical calls so i'm a paramedic as well and
you're wearing all these hats and trying to manage
it all. And truly like the sleep deprivation
is so massively important because your brain
can't function properly when it's inflamed all
the time and you're not getting enough sleep
and you're stuck in a cortisol cycle, right?
So if you aren't able to dump that cortisol and
you're not able to get into your parasympathetic
type rest and relaxation. you're not going to
be able to perform. So they want more out of
you for more hours. But at the same time, if
you don't actually take care of yourself and
are able to get to sleep and able to decompress
and spend time with your family and remove, like
reduce your cortisol levels, you're not going
to be good at your job anyway. Your cognition
is going to go down. Your memory decreases. You're
more irritable. I mean, I worked a couple of
48s in the past two weeks and I got to tell you,
I wasn't in my... At my best, my last shift,
my officer said something to me. And, you know,
it was true. I was tired. Luckily, I have an
excellent officer now. His name is AJ Young.
He's amazing. And I really absolutely love him.
I'm very fortunate to have an officer who really
cares, who trains, who's doing things for the
right reason, who cares about our family life.
So, you know, there are still those guys out
there. And I'm very, you know, I love my crew.
I'm very happy with my officer. But yeah, I mean,
it's so imperative. It's such a cliche, right?
You have to love yourself before you can love
someone else. But truly, you have to take care
of yourself before you can take care of other
people. And that's super important in the fire
service. I got to a point where I got burnt out
very early. I started teaching very early on
in my career, which caused a lot of strife in
my life. I started teaching with only two years
on in the fire service, which I got a lot of
judgments for. And there's like a whole story
behind how I got. asked to teach how i decided
to go ahead and help out with all that but you
know i um i was you know taking all these classes
and conferences i was teaching i joined the combat
challenge team um i was teaching the cadets i
ended up teaching fire academy and emt and medical
school i was having or medic school i was you
know i have i've had like three jobs while working
you know, extra 48s to get off for conferences
or trainings or classes on top of the actual
running the calls and having difficulty social
life. And I got burnt out. It got to the point
where I actually had hives for a week from stress.
And I was transported. We didn't know what was
going on. I thought I was just having an allergic
reaction. All of a sudden I had hives everywhere.
I called, I live right next to a firehouse. I
called the guys and The officer there was like,
Jenny, you need to go. You need to get checked
out. He's like, you're getting more hives as
you're here. And I was on, you know, steroids
and antihistamines and all these things for a
week and nothing happened. Nothing helped. And
they would just come every single day. And my
friend, one of my best friends, Cassandra, came
over and she's like. you know, I think we need
to do some yoga. I'm like, okay. So, and then,
so we did some yoga. She's like, maybe we need
to have a mimosa and cry about our lives for
a moment. I'm like, okay. So we did that. And
we actually cried about our lives in my carport.
And she's like, you know what? I think it's going
to fix your hives. I'm like, tell me. She's like,
I think we just need to do something really,
really random and fun. And I said, okay, name
it. I'm down. I'll do whatever it is. She's like,
I think we should go rent jet skis, but I want
my own jet ski. I was like, yeah, you don't want
to write tandem jet skis. But anyway, so within
an hour we were on jet skis. Um, I let that thing
go full throttle and we just went for it. And,
uh, I did not get hides again. It was, it's just,
if you're not giving yourself that time to relax
and finding your joy and finding your happiness
and doing things for yourself, you're not going
to be able to serve anybody else in including
the community or the fire service. It's, it's
so important. Um, and I'm all for like, you know,
we do things for them and, and our health is
important, but our job is to focus and to search
and to, you know, like to go in on, um, on the
searches that, you know, if there's a chance
of life, you, you, I'm, you take those risks,
but that doesn't take away the fact that you
need to take care of yourself, you know, in between
all those times where you're choosing to risk
your life for this job, right? Like your life
is still important. It still matters to, to go
ahead and, and. you know, make sure you're in
the right state of mind to be able to help everyone,
right? I said this in the couple of times I've
done talks recently. You know, firstly, if you
were, you know, a football fan, baseball fan,
whatever, and your favorite players only slept
four days a week, how would that impact their
game? And they just play a game. They throw a
ball. They catch it. They put it in a hole, whatever
the game is. But it's a game. Now take us. You
know, you are in a dead sleep. You know, you've
been running most of the night now. It's three
in the morning. You get woken up, jump out of
bed, throw clothes on, slide down the two -story
pole, get in the back of a tiller truck. I'm
using my favorite department in California. You
know, navigate to a fire, get off, you know,
throw a ladder, make entry to a second -story
window, you know, do a primary search, find a
child, find the window again, pull the child
back down the ladder. Now you're on the front
yard. There's a train right down your first due.
So now the ambulance is held up with a rescue.
So now you're doffing your gear and you're starting
a pediatric cardiac arrest algorithm in your
mind and trying to figure out drug doses. And
those people work 56 hours a week and 80 hours
if you get mandatory. But the person who bags
your groceries, and again, this is not demeaning
to them, but a not life -threatening job or makes
you coffee or whatever it is, at 40 hours, they
tap out. And that's because they know that's
a healthy thing for a regular person. And you
put those two side by side and not a single person
has been explained to me anything that makes
sense as far as why, other than, well, we've
always done it that way. So when you put it in
those terms and you're talking about performance
and you've got these chess beaters saying they're
the greatest firefighter on the planet and you're
not even fighting for a work week that allows
you to perform at the highest level, you're a
liar. You're a damn liar. You're a peacock. Because
you want to film yourself on the fire ground
throwing a ladder, but you're rolling over when
they tell you you got work mandatory and now
you're doing two civilian work weeks in a week.
And your performance is dog shit. And it is.
It's science. It's absolute science. So this
is, again, why there needs to be a pushback.
If you're looking at performing at the highest
level in the EMS side, the technical rescue side,
the fire side, you should be demanding the same
kind of environment that our special operators
get, that our sports people get. But in the fire
service, we just take scraps and then we just
say, oh, yeah, well, you know, chest, you know,
beach, excuse me, chest beating again. Like,
well, you know, this job isn't for everyone.
I'll sleep when I'm dead. And it's like, no,
that's bullshit. You know, you're just telling
yourself a fairy tale. If you truly take this
job seriously, you, as you said, will train at
the highest level, but you will also demand the
rest and recovery that will allow you to perform
at the highest level. Absolutely. I mean, I think
that's. obviously super important um you know
we we really in order to do this job well you
need to be well you need to be well right your
body needs to be well your mind needs to be well
and so we already have besides lack of sleep
we already have so many things that are affecting
us right we're already in our sympathetic state
most of the time because of the calls because
of constantly having to be ready um the tones
going off where we're um you're you're basically
always living with with your cup all the way
full which is why when things go wrong in your
family life or something else like all of a sudden
the pieces are crumbling right and sleep deprivation
i i couldn't agree more i mean if you want to
fight to do be the best at this job. We need
to be fighting to be able to get enough sleep
to do our jobs properly, to be functioning at
our highest level. Because we are making life
choices, like life decisions for people on a
constant basis on a couple hours of sleep. And
if we're not catching up and we're not thinking
clearly, we could, you know, that's how human
error is a real thing. So, I mean, we have human
error in science and we have human error in our
daily lives whenever you're... you know, in,
in the medical field. So it's just, yeah, I,
I a hundred percent agree. If you, if you are
fighting to do this job properly, you should
be fighting to do it in a, in a healthy way.
Not just, not just training, which is important,
not just training and fitness, but being able
to fight for getting enough sleep so you can
function properly. A hundred percent. People,
you know, for so long now said, I need to see
the data. on why a 56 hour work week is worse
than a 42. And again, I face palm and, you know,
the most aggressive of ways. And I, you really
need to study to show that, but okay, I'll bite
for a second. Let's flip it around. I can give
you a 50, you know, 50 year longitudinal study
on how not to do it because our graveyards are
full of firefighters. So there's your data. We
know about the cancer and the heart disease and
the suicides and, you know, the, um, the failed
pregnancies and all these other things, the alcoholism
and the opioid overdoses. I mean, it's there.
It's rampant. And also, if you want to take the
acuity side, how many of our line of duty deaths
that weren't from chronic disease are also attributed
to sleep deprivation? The tankers that roll over,
the intersection wrecks, falling off an aerial,
getting lost in a primary. How many of those
could have been avoided if those responders were
actually well slept? Right. I mean, yeah. I couldn't
agree more with everything that you're doing
and everything you're fighting for. I know about
trying to show people the importance of it. I
mean, you're not going to be functioning at your
best no matter what. I definitely think that
when you're trying to make these quick decisions,
you already know this. If you haven't slept and
you're trying to do anything, During the day,
trying to cook, trying to clean normal tasks,
it already becomes far more difficult, right?
Like you can't, you make simple mistakes. So
a hundred percent putting your life on like other
people's life on the line while you're sleep
deprived is it's not a badge of honor. It's,
it's, uh, you know, it's a, it's a detriment,
right? So, um, yeah, I mean, we, there's already
so many things, um, that come along with this,
this, this job is really, I always say it's a
lifestyle. It's not, it's not a job because it's
for, you know, we are still, my department is
still 24 48. So every three days this is where
a third of my life is at the, at the firehouse
running calls and eating, eating with the, with
the guys eat, like spending time living that
lifestyle, like whatever's going on. your your
home life your sleep all of that is going to
affect it and and there's already so many things
besides sleep deprivation that are already you
know causing health issues and mental health
issues you know whether it's physical or mental
which both equate to overall health right so
yeah i mean it's it's truly sad like it you know
it's not it's something that 100 needs to be
Spent a lot more time. I think, I think it's
slowly coming around, but yeah, obviously there's
a lot of resistance because it might not, it
might not work out financially to have that schedule.
Cause now we have to hire a whole nother shift,
you know, and you know, it's, it's, it's something
that's difficult to convince, but the science
is obviously there. I mean, you don't even need
to. To have these specific shift studies to prove
the science of lack of sleep. There's lots of
lack of sleep studies that prove how it affects
your cognition, your inflammation, your heart
disease risk, your cancer risk. So, I mean, I
couldn't agree more with what you've been fighting
for, for sure. Well, what's weird as well, not
weird, but I guess frustrating too is, you know,
you get these air quotes financial gurus in cities
and counties and just asking, Because a lot of
departments are coming to me now saying, how
do we get this started? Again, I'm not the expert.
I send them to all these departments that have
done it. I can certainly talk about the principles
and all those things, but how do you actually
put it in practice? That's Pascoe, Gainesville,
all these departments that have done it already.
They're the experts. But basically, if you look
at the money you're wasting on overtime, because
no one wants to work for you, and the money that
you spend on training a new recruit who then
leaves your department two or three years later,
and the money you're spending on workman's comp.
and line of duty death payments and medical retirements
and lawsuits from mistakes that we make, there
are tens of millions of dollars downstream. So
it's not even more money. Yes, this fiscal year
you will need a little bit more, but then you're
going to save money hand over fist downstream.
And it could just save lives of firemen in general.
That doesn't matter because clearly if that was
the problem, if that was actually something that
moved people, we would have fixed this years
ago. Right. So that isn't enough to move people.
It's enough for me to leave the fire service,
give up my pension and start a podcast. But it
wasn't enough for a city or county council member
to actually fight for their own people as they're
burying them annually. So it's the dollars and
cents that talks. But if you look at Pasco and
Gainesville, they showed, look, with tens of
millions we're losing for nothing and we're destroying
our firefighters in the process. And then the
moment they make the switch and they tell the
world, hey, we're going to be going to this shift,
they have lines around their buildings for recruits
wanting to work for them. And then lo and behold,
those vacancies are filled. And it's still overtime.
There's day duties and other things, but it's
infrequent. So now these people are forced to
rest, maybe even start an entrepreneurial project
on the side, which is very healthy as long as
you sleep at night. And now, as you said, you've
torn that identity from being all in as a firefighter.
It's something that I do and I love, but I'm
also a surfer and a yoga student and all these
other things. And now I've started this health
business or whatever it is on the side. Now you've
got another entire identity, entire tribe. So
no matter how you look at it, the answers are
there. And there's a Desmond Tutu quote that
I absolutely adore, which sums us up perfectly.
It says, we we're so busy pulling people out
of the river we forget to go upstream and find
out why they're falling in in the first place
that's it that's all we're asking you to do take
that money and put it in the front yeah i think
it's absolutely important um you know i we can
only hope that people will start people who can
make these decisions will start you know spending
more time really diving into it and understanding
the the purpose behind it and the importance
so yeah 100 absolutely well the other good thing
is that you know as departments go to it it's
going to force others to as well because otherwise
they're not going to hire anyone because no one's
going to want to go to you 100 agree with that
even the revolution Yes, they're going to have
no choice. All right, well, I'll get off my soapbox.
I get on there a lot. I apologize, but I think
it's just important to reiterate this because
we're talking about performance and health. This
is just one of what I call the herd of elephants
in the room. Going back to your journey, though,
we left you in Panama. Before we even talk about
what was next, talk to me about Panama because
there's so many countries that do so many things
well. you know, that I think other people need
to hear about. So what were the things that you
loved about Panama? And then also, you know,
were there any things that, that, that country,
you know, maybe could learn from the U S or somewhere
else? Oh, I mean, learning to enjoy life and
slow down. I mean, that's pretty much all of
Central America. But yeah, I, I, I finished my
master's degree, and I actually got married and
took off to Panama. I had already been planning
it, and then I started dating somebody. We ended
up getting married. We called it our honeymoon.
But basically, I was already going. But I lived
in Bocas del Toro, which is a little island on
the Caribbean side. So I didn't spend a lot of
time in the whole rest of the country. I mainly
stayed on this group of islands here. I lived
on one of the islands that had no vehicles. I
lived in basically a cabin that collected rainwater
and, you know, had like... propane for the stove
and for heating up the shower and everything.
So it was like all self -sufficient there. And,
you know, we had some friends there. We'd jump
on the boat and go right out to a surf break
and go surfing. It was basically to just surf.
But I will say it definitely is a different lifestyle
in Central America. I've spent time in Panama,
Costa Rica. Nicaragua, all for surf trips, mainly.
This was my third time in Bocas del Toro when
I went to go live there. And, you know, the way
of life there is, it's just different. Everyone
just hangs out. There's a reason why everyone's
late. It's because no one's in a rush. Like,
oh, let's get dinner tonight. What time do you
think? Six, which really means like 730. And
you just show up when you show up and nobody's
mad about it. You hang out there, you sit, you
talk, you enjoy life. You watch the sunset, you
watch the sunrise. You know, I would I would
like take a break and just. pop open a coconut
and drink that when I was thirsty. You know,
it was just beautiful. It was one, it was one
of the best things I ever did. Um, and then surfing
itself is one of, um, one of the greatest gifts
I've ever had in my life. It's, it's just such
a, a way to connect with nature, to clear your
mind. Um, it made such an impact in my life.
Um, but anyway, so as far as Panama and being
in Bostel Toro, yeah, I mean, just. the appreciation
for life and family and community. Community
is such an important thing. And we kind of lose
a lot of that in the States. We have like social
community or social media and things like that,
but actually spending time putting our phones
away. I mean, I don't think I, well, obviously
I was in another country, so I wasn't just using
my phone all the time, but nobody just like played
on their phones all day. You know, we just hang
out and spend time together. um, cook some homemade
foods and, um, you know, the vegetables were
fresh. You don't, you know, the eggs they don't
put in the fridge. They're just like on the counters,
um, which I guess you only really need to refrigerate
if you've washed them off and all this stuff.
But, um, it's, yeah, it's a, it's, it's a way
of life that I, I definitely can appreciate.
I wouldn't mind retiring in Central America eventually.
So what brought you back from Panama and then
how did that lead you to the fire service? Okay,
so I ran out of money. But no, the plan was always
to go for like around six months just to disconnect
and leave everything behind. When I came back,
I was kind of over school. You know, I did my
bachelor's for six years. Then I did my master's
for three. Because of doing the thesis and everything
and changing my project halfway through. And
the next thing I know, I was just burnt out on
school. I was like, I don't want to go to school
forever. So I was actually applying to PA schools.
And me and my husband at the time were over at
a friend's house who surfed and was a fireman
for Palm Beach County. My husband was actually
talking to him. I have like a short attention
span. So I'm like staring off at something and
he's asking him basically like, how do you have
so much time to serve? Like, what do you do?
And he like, they just started talking about
work and I wasn't even paying attention. And
my husband just smacked me on the shoulder and
he's like, you should be a fireman. And I was
like, huh? I never really thought of it. I mean,
I grew up with a single mom. It's not exactly
like the role that I had pictured for my life
or even considered. And I it's funny because
I was like, oh, OK, well, you know, they do medical
stuff and I like the medical side and. You have
to be fit. I like working out and I like doing
adrenaline stuff. I've been skydiving a bunch
of times and been in a submarine and like, you
know, I'm a little bit of an adrenaline junkie.
And I was just like, yeah, that sounds cool.
And the next day I applied to EMT school. It's
not a very romantic story. I literally just changed
my mind like that. So the next day I applied
to EMT school, got in right away. I was actually
teaching at the college when I came back. I was
teaching anatomy labs. So they were kind of laughing
at me taking an EMT class while I'm teaching
at the same college, you know, anatomy classes.
And they were always asking, like, is that right?
I like it. you know, while I was in class, but
it was a good time. It was, it was great. Um,
so I went through EMT school. Um, this is how
little I knew about the fire service. When I
did ride times for EMT school, um, I went to
a firehouse, um, and I met all the guys and,
you know, I came back home and they're like,
Oh, how was it? I was like, Oh, I met this guy.
And, you know, I'm saying their names and I met
this guy LT. I thought that was like his name.
I did not realize that was Lieutenant. So many
LTs is weird. It's a really popular name. Yeah.
I'm like every, every firehouse has an LT. It's
so strange. No, but I, I just, I really did not
understand a lot of the culture. I didn't grow
up around any firemen. My uncle, he passed away,
but he was a police officer, but he lived in
Texas, but I didn't have, you know, I just, I
didn't have, I just. I didn't really know anything
about fire service until I jumped into EMT school.
Then when I was getting ready for fire academy,
I just, I knew a guy from surfing who was like
the most fit guy I knew. And I just, he was a
lifeguard. And I called him up and said, Hey,
can you train me? You're like the fittest person
I know. And so he had me meeting him at his lifeguard
stand. We'd drag tires in the sand and push the
four -wheeler. There's like the beach four -wheeler,
he'd have me push it in the sand and like people
were always coming up to try and help me. And
I'm like, no, no, no, it's not broken down. He's
making me work out. But so I worked out outside
and I got like really obsessed with the training.
Like I met him as, you know, as many times as
I could. Our PAT to get in a fire academy was
basically the combat challenge with a... I think
at the time it was a 25 pound weight vest, but
it was the combat challenge course was the entry
exam for the fire Academy. So I basically mimicked
as many things as I could of that course. I'd
work out in a parking garage and carry weights
up and like hoist up weights from a rope and
do all kinds of stuff to, to prepare. And so
I ended up getting into fire school. loving it
um and that was it like i was like this is it
this is what i wanted to do i was like i became
obsessed i um i was the uh first female class
leader at irsc um which which ended up um uh
i i ended up failing my midterm um i had like
a kink in my hose and then when i went to retest
my ladder got taken by the wind long story short
It was like the hardest thing ever. I like worked
so hard to be there, was the first female class
leader in the history of the fire academy there
and then failed. So in such an epic failure,
it was like I was like devastated. So I ended
up just training harder, going back, did fine.
I ended up becoming the second, the first and
second female class leader. But anyway, it all
worked out. And then, yeah, so I joined the fire
service. I got hired at 29 and worked for one
department, switched to the department that I'm
at now. So I started it later in life and it
just kind of popped up out of nowhere, unexpected.
It was quite a turn. So, yeah, that's where it
started. Talk to me about. The elements of your
strength and conditioning that you had to focus
on. When I got into the fire service, I was,
you know, I don't even know what I weighed before
I started training, but I mean, I've been very
tall, like six foot tall and then very, very
slim. So long levers, but not a lot of strength
around them. So, you know, I would run, there
was a four and a half mile course or lap around
Orlando near station 10 there. And then I would
on my. lunch breaks from my regular job, I would
go to the YMCA and lift weights and do pull ups
on the stairs. And it was almost like a Rocky
montage. But and then I would go to the fire
academy early and do the sleds and stairs and
hose and all kinds of stuff. Because I realized
that, you know, just because I happen to be a
certain gender doesn't mean that I've got all
the elements that's going to make me a good firefighter.
So I knew that I was, you know, at a motor, I
was fit, but I didn't have the raw strength.
And that's what I had to really work on. And
when you hear this conversation about women in
the fire service, men in the fire service, whatever,
it's just about, do you have the physical tools
regardless of your gender? So I had the humility
to know all the elements that I had to work on
and did and worked my ass off and never stopped
the entire career and then beyond. So when you
got in and for example, the wind is starting
to take the ladder from you, what were the tweaks
that you made in your training and the academy
and beyond to make sure that having a smaller
frame, you were still strong enough to be able
to do the job? Well, I'm glad you asked because
this has been basically all I've focused on for
the past however many years. It's part of what
I taught. What I've taught in fire service is
basically overcoming using techniques and body
mechanics in order to accomplish the same tasks
as everybody else. So when I was training to
get into fire academy, like I said, I worked
out with, his name was Justin Baker, a good friend
of mine. I think one of the important things
for training was the fact that we did everything
outside in the sun. A lot of people work out
in the gym. So we're doing everything not only
outside in the sun, but in the soft sand on the
beach. He's having me drag a tire that's filling
up with sand as I'm dragging it. So a lot of
resistance training. And our workouts were like
an hour long. And really it was just... Having
a good mentor that helped me, he had weights
and dumbbells. I never worked out in a gym when
I was training for Fire Academy. It's a weakness
of mine to not just go lift weights in a gym.
I do a lot of body weight lifting. I would flip
tires and use dumbbells and stuff, but I had
never at that point even used a bench press.
And when I trained for Fire Academy, I still
hadn't. Um, but it was a lot of circuit training.
Um, I'd wear weight vests. I wear the, um, high
altitude masks, the, um, you know, to restrict
your breathing, uh, basically to, you know, help
with your cardiovascular, uh, you know, demands.
But, um, as I, as I got through, um, as I went
through fire school and I had issues with the
ladder. Now I hadn't had any issues up until.
my midterm where I failed. But the first day
I ever went to go throw a ladder, it was the
first time that I definitely, I didn't think
I was going to be able to do it. And right there,
I had this moment of, should I quit? Not because
I wanted to ever quit anything, but because I
don't think you should do this job unless you're
going to be able to do every aspect of the job.
And I was worried that this is something that
I couldn't do. But, you know, luckily I had really
great instructors at Indian River State College.
And even the chief there, he was like my height.
He's giving me different techniques for body
mechanics and basically, you know, what to work
on with it. But also having a good core strength,
I think, is super important. But, yeah, I as
you know, not just in fire school, but it really
it's it's having people and techniques like using
your your arsenal of friends and people who you
look up to. I think if there's anything you want
to do in life, you should go find somebody who
does it well. And that was like me with Justin
Baker. Oh, you're the most fit person I know.
And, you know. you can accomplish everything.
He got me into the best shape of my life at,
you know, I think I was like 28 or 29 when I
started fire Academy. I can't remember, but it
was the best shape of my life. Um, and so you
don't, you don't need to go to a traditional
gym, but you do need to stay active. Cardio is
super, super important. A lot of people just
lift weights and they forget about the cardio
side, but half the times I would do better than
a lot of the guys because I could outlast them
and, and I would just continue on. I was like
the energizer bunny, basically. I would just
keep on going. But I think that it's something
that's really important, especially as a female,
is to continue to work out and stay in shape.
That's something I've been in the fire service
for almost 10 years now. It's been something
that's been very important that I've always tried
to preach and to push. I teach at the local fire
academy. I do a workout every lunch break in
full gear on air. And it's not just to set an
example. I think it's important to set an example
to show that you're going to go put in the work,
but it's also because as a 5 '4 and a half woman,
I have to work out. I have to stay in shape to
do my job, right? Some people are like, why are
you always doing it? I have to. There was a time
when I got hired on and I'd go throw ladders
all the time. And the guys were like, why are
you always throwing a ladder? And I'm like, I
have to. You don't understand. If I don't throw
ladders, then I can't. Do it. You know, I have
to stay active doing it. I have to be efficient
and proficient at it. So if I'm not throwing
ladders, I'm doing a disservice to everybody
in the community when it's needed. Right. And,
you know, you have to stay active in that for
sure. So, yeah, I mean, health and fitness is
massive, especially as a female for everyone.
But especially as a female, I mean, you know,
genetics alone, we're usually. stronger lower
body i mean everybody's stronger in their legs
i mean it's your bigger muscles but you know
guys tend to have higher upper body strength
and there's a lot of ways i think there's anything
that you can overcome if you spend enough time
and learn techniques so um which is how i ended
up basically teaching later on um you know but
yes that was a long way of saying I like to work
out. No, but it's important. But it's funny because
you said when you were five foot four, you needed
to work out. When I was six foot and I needed
to work out, I think this is the point. If you're
an ex -linebacker turned firefighter, you need
to work out. It's just we're all focusing on
different things. The linebacker, chances are
their endurance isn't going to be great unless
they're a physical phenom. And then the slimmer
person is going to have to work on their strength.
And the kind of mesomorph might have to kind
of balance the two of them. But the point is.
you know, the goal is that you're the best version
of yourself so you can respond. So these guys
that are like, well, you know, I can still make
it happen on the fire ground. It's like, okay,
that's all well and good. But if you drop 30
pounds and stop smoking, imagine how much better
you would be. And what if you carry with you
the fact that you couldn't make it up that high
rise because you hadn't trained? What is that
going to do to you mentally? Because you know
damn well that you chose a lazy boy over the
gym every time you're on shift. Right. Yeah.
I mean, That's obviously its own epidemic in
the fire service is, you know, not staying fit.
I think it's a huge disservice to yourself and
to everyone that you're trying to serve. You
know, not just working out, but the fact that.
Um, I really, it's why conferences were so important
to me because I had to really hone in on my techniques
because if I couldn't just like do things from
brute strength, I really had to learn techniques
to do everything. Um, and so like, I think that's
too, it's super important. It's why reps are
so important. So not only staying physically
fit, but finding those techniques so that you
can function and, um, do your job without basically,
you know, um, So you can function and do it just
as well as anybody else. And I just think that
like, that's also a really important aspect.
And conferences and trainings made a huge difference
for that for me. You know, like far more than,
I mean, I got a lot of training in my departments
and with people on the cruise, but you go to
a conference and you're learning from people
all over the country. They got different techniques.
They got different ways of doing things that
made a massive difference in my confidence and
my skills. It blew me away when I first entered
the fire service and then kind of had been on
long enough to start reflecting on the environment
that we work in, that there was such a resistance
to fitness standards. And you mentioned about
Justin being a lifeguard. A lot of the ocean
lifeguards have had on here. And I was a open
water lifeguard before. You know, you have to
recertify. A lot of the ocean guys are doing
it every six months. And if you don't recertify,
you're not a lifeguard anymore. And, you know,
there's this pushback again about, oh, but, you
know, it's not fair. And what about if they take
my job? And ironically, yesterday on Facebook
Memories, I cashed out my pension to do this
job, this podcast. And it got to the point where
I was almost out of money and I hadn't got a
sponsor. And so I was getting ready to test yet
again for department number five. And so, you
know, having humility, I was like, well, let
me go do a practice CPAT and make sure that I'm
ready. so that then I get all these pieces together
for the fire teams or whatever I end up doing.
And at 45 years old, my CPAT was 720. I'm not
the fastest. I've never won medals for powerlifting.
I've never won medals for sprinting. Never won
medals for triathlon. You know what I mean? I'm
not an elite athlete. It's just someone who took
the job seriously. So if a 45 -year -old skinny
dude can take three minutes off a CPAT, then
I don't understand how people can say it's not
fair to have a fitness standard when comparable
professions like ocean lifeguarding and special
forces and SWAT all have that bench set. And
if you fall below it... You don't do the job
anymore. So that's kind of my perspective and
my frustrations. You work so hard to get this
profession. You got a background in, you know,
the health side as well. Talk to me about fitness
standards and hiring standards as well as we're
seeing them start to slip. Yeah, actually, this
is something I'm very passionate about as far
as, you know, I teach fire academy and I just.
I think it's super important to be able to pass
fitness standards. I don't think that there should
be a separate standard for females or anyone
because we are all competing for the same job.
We're all expected to do the same thing. So I'm
very passionate on you either have trained and
you have prepared for it or you have not, right?
And it has nothing to do with your age, your
gender. your race, anything like that. I think
the most important thing is being able to actually
do what you are set out to do, train to be there.
I trained really hard to be there. I spent all
my time. Justin's a fireman as well now. He was
a lifeguard at the time. But like, you know,
I called him every day. We were doing two workouts
a day at times. And as far as continuing, like
there has been times where. Women specifically
have been hired on when they haven't passed their
times or or they've gotten into certain classes.
And I just it's. It's almost like an insult because
you a lot of us have spent a lot of time to work
to be there. And I don't think that something
should just be handed to you for fairness. It's
not fair. It's not fair in any way, because then
you're not helping the, you know. The rest of
the people who have to work with the person,
you're not helping the community who needs somebody
who's trained and fit to be able to get them
out. And, you know, it is what it is. You've
either trained and prepared for this job or you
haven't. And on top of it, you're right, as far
as maintaining it. I mean, it's very easy to
get complacent. It's very easy to get tired and
burnt out and have life go on where you want
to just relax and you don't want to work out.
Having fitness standards that are set to continue
on, I think, is imperative. Our department has
just gone to the past few years doing the every
year as our standard. And so I'm glad we started
doing that. I think it's important. You know,
not every department has a fitness standard that
we do every year, but it's. It isn't just to
do your job well, it's to it's to maintain your
health while doing this job. Like, you know,
not only do you need it, if you have to carry
extrication equipment and gear, you know, you
know, and, you know, perform an extrication or,
you know, throw ladders and do VES or whatever
you're doing, you need you need that fitness
standard, you need that training. And if you
haven't been and you get assigned tasks, I mean.
It's kind of like you're taking a risk, right?
You're gambling on yourself to be able to accomplish
it. And the people who you're going to save,
they need you at your best. So yeah, I couldn't
agree more with keeping up fitness standards.
I'm very passionate about it. I think it's something
I try and work out every shift. It doesn't happen
every shift sometimes. I think it's also important.
Just as important to work out, it is to rest
sometimes. There are days where maybe you do
need to sit on the recliner. Maybe you just need
a break and that's okay. As long as that's not
your standard, right? Like your body needs rest.
You know, sometimes I have this thing where I
try and work out after shift immediately. I go
to the stadium whenever I'm out of shift. If
I'm not teaching fire academy, if I'm at fire
academy, I do an air comp during my lunch break.
But there's days where I go to work out. And
I'm, I'm just spent, I'm exhausted and I'll do
like a very minimal workout. Sometimes I'll go
there and I'm just like, I am too tired and I
leave. And it's not because I don't want to continue
my fitness, but you, you, it's important to listen
to your body. Sometimes you just need to rest,
you know, like you're overexerting your lack
of sleep. So, you know, but overall, yes, fitness
and, and, and, um, you know, training standards,
they need to. People need to be held accountable
throughout their career to continue on their
career. It's for their own benefit. Exactly.
That's the thing that's so crazy with the conversation.
There's no downside. We have said this so many
times. Our certification in Florida is literally
labeled minimum standards. This is the shittiest
you should ever be your entire career. You just
squeak through the door. Here's the key to the
lock. By maintaining that, You know, if you do
it immediately, like this is the annual standard,
no one's going to say, well, it's not fair because
you just did it in the academy. But now you've
got people saying it's not fair. You're trying
to take our jobs and no one's saying we're going
to implement a standard tomorrow. And if you
can't meet it, you're fired. Of course, there
would be a year, two year on ramp to make sure
everyone's kind of brought up to where they need
to be. But like you said, the other thing is
now you're prolonging lifespan. So by opposing
fitness standards, you're saying it's fine that
we're losing people in their 50s. I've got no
problem with that. Just don't try and take our
jobs. Like, no, that's bullshit. That's another
thing with the cowardice. If you really actually
care about your men and women, you'd make damn
sure. And this goes hand in hand. You've got
to create an environment of rest and recovery.
So the 42 hour work week, and then you've got
to put in a fitness standard and one that's job
related. And the beautiful thing about ours is
you can do a CPAT or the fire sled version of
a CPAT. You did that at the beginning. You just
keep doing it. Like you said, it doesn't matter
black, white, gay, straight, male, female, a
hose is a hose, a ladder is a ladder. So no one
can fucking cry about the fact that you're being
asked to do fire ground tasks. But then what
is going to happen? You're going to transition
out. You're going to have a healthy retirement.
You're going to watch your grandkids grow, you
know, versus some, you know, fricking pussy ass
version of, of, you know, justification of why
you shouldn't have a fitness standard. And now
you're burying your men and women before they
even get to retire. So there is no downside,
again, apart from having the courage to stand
up and say, you know what, we do need this. Excuse
me. We do need the standard in place. We were
wrong. Let's change it. Absolutely. I mean, I
think it's really easy for, you know, people
who make a lot of administrative decisions to
kind of forget some of the things that, you know,
once they've been here. once they left the line.
But, you know, I think sometimes the focus can
be on the wrong thing. We're focused more on
how we present, how we look to the public versus
how good we are at our jobs, how fit we are,
how good our health is, how good our training
is. And I think if we just get back to the basics
of that, it makes everybody actually happier
and better at work. Like, the more training you
do, the more knowledgeable you are, the more
confident you are in your job, the more you can
do things securely. The more fit you are, same
thing. The more confident in your job, the more
you're able to do well, the more you take care
of your body. Everybody wins, right? So, yeah,
I mean, 100%, I think. Overall, everybody wins.
The community wins and you win. Your department
wins. When your people are happy and healthy,
everybody works better. So yeah, I mean, keeping
a health standard is imperative. Being able to
get sleep, taking care of yourself. The happier
you are as a person, the better you perform.
And that goes without saying with staying fit,
eating healthy, working out, sleeping. I mean,
it's all the necessities of life. 100%. Well,
speaking of training, you kind of, mentioned
earlier how you found yourself in the training
position very early so walk me through you know
how that happened some of the the elements that
you train on now and then you know what were
the resistances that you encountered okay so
yes um i uh i didn't even have two years on the
job yet and i went to uh the mickelbeck conference
in um osceola and um Chief Halton, Bobby Halton
was speaking. And basically it was, you know,
I had already been to the Orlando Fire Conference
and Fort Lauderdale Fire Conference. I mean,
you know. I went to every conference I could
possibly get my hands on and every class I take
in survival class, I take in whatever, any class
I could take, I took. And here I am at the conference
and I went to go talk to Chief Halton afterwards
about his lecture and a lot of the things he
said. And we just got to talking and out of nowhere,
he says to me, oh, I want you to come teach at
FDIC. And I literally didn't answer him because
I'm like, he probably thinks. I have a lot more
time on in the fire service because I'm, you
know, I'm, you know, 30. But one of my friends
was standing right next to me. His name is Lou
Castanelli. He's from Poughkeepsie. And he just
responds for me because I was stunned. And he
just said, what she's trying to say, chief, is
she'd love to. So right away, I just said to
him, like, oh. Listen, yes, I, you know, that
is a huge opportunity. And I absolutely appreciate
you offering that to me. But just to let you
know, by the time FDIC rolls around, I'll have
a total of two years in the fire service. So
you can take that back and I won't be offended.
That's what I told him. And he looks at me and
he goes, no, I want you to teach at FDIC. And
I, I was just like, okay. OK, so he gave me a
cell phone number and he's like, I want you to
call me. Don't worry. It's a this is what he
tells me. It's a female firefighter fitness class.
Now, it was not a firefighter fitness class.
But anyway, this this woman, Katie Johnson, was
leading the class and he he hooked me up with
her. He basically told her that I'm going to
be in the group. Um, I didn't, I didn't just
call him right away because I have a lot of respect
for the fire service and for teaching. And I
understand that it takes time, um, and experience
before you're put in a role like that. I, I,
you know, I had been a teacher for a while and,
um, you know, at the local college and I taught
at FAU while I was getting my undergrad. And
I just, I have an appreciation for experience
and things like that. And so, um, before I called
Chief Halton. I got advice from some really good
friends of mine and people that I respect in
the fire service. And one of them was Mike Salzano.
He's a chief in Fort Lauderdale. And he said
something that I take with me everywhere I go
in life, because I basically told him like, hey,
what you know, what should I do? I was given
this opportunity. I know I only I don't have
that much time on. I know I'm going to be given
a hard time. And he says, and at this point I
had talked to Katie and basically the class was
engine and truck work. Right. And she said, you
know, what do you think you could work on? And
I said, oh, there was a victim removal portion.
And I said, oh, I'd really like to do the victim
removal portion. It was something that I struggled
with and did a lot of training and techniques
and things. I said, you know, that's what I'd
like to work on it. Well, she ended up making
me the lead of that section. Right. So. Back
to talking to Mike, I was just like, you know,
what should I do? And he says, he's like, all
right. He's like, do you think that you're going
to teach something that's going to help people?
I said, yes. He's like, so he's like, do you
think you're going to teach something that people
are going to use to save lives? I said, yes.
And he's like, then fucking do it and just do
a good fucking job. That's it. Don't worry about
what everybody else thinks. If you're going to
do something, it's going to help people to do
it. That's it. It's that simple. And I was like,
okay, you know, because there's all these egos
and there's all these issues and everybody wants
to teach. And I didn't want to be that, you know,
he's like, you know, don't go, don't go around
like bragging that you're teaching. Don't do
this. Just go teach and do a good job. And if
you do it, do a good job. Make sure that, you
know, you're teaching something that has meaning
that people can take back. And I was like, all
right. And it's advice that I use for a lot of
different things in my life that it just meant
a lot. But I talked to him. I talked to a couple
other guys. And basically, so I decided to go
ahead with it. You know, I ended up teaching
at FDIC. I think it was the first year of 2018,
maybe. I think it was 2018. But anyway, I ended
up teaching VES and victim removal. And the whole
reason that it was something that I wanted to
teach is because when I was training, when I
first got hired on in my first department, I
had, we were doing VES training and I had to
throw a guy out a window and I failed at it.
I could not get him out. I had that moment again,
just like with the ladder, like, oh my God, I
shouldn't do this job if I can't do all the aspects
of this job. But I ended up training and I went
to conferences and I took VES classes and I came
up with some things on my own. I went to Fort
Lauderdale Fire Expo and Orlando Fire Conference.
And those those two conferences alone were like
huge for my training, understanding. And I like
all of the instructors were more than willing
to help me with any techniques that I needed
extra help on. And basically, I took the thing
that I sucked at the most and became really proficient
at it so that it was something that. You know,
I never wanted to question if I could do that
part of the job. So anyway, I ended up between
things that I've accumulated from classes and
coming up with some of my own techniques and
maneuvers. It became a passion of mine to be
able to move victims and like be able to throw,
you know. large man out windows. Um, but, um,
so yeah, I, um, so I, I went and I taught for,
uh, FDIC as, um, teaching in the victim removal
portion. Um, uh, my first year there, I did that
for a couple of years with Katie, um, because
of my class, my class went really well. I did
what Mike told me to, I did a good job. I did.
I spent the time to make sure that, um, you know,
I wasn't just. out there BSing. Like I took the
time to, to really hopefully make a big impact.
And I, whenever I teach, I teach everything myself.
In other words, I, there's lots of people who
teach with me who have assisted me, but I purposely
will do all the victim jags and throw people
out a window because I want to make sure that
they know if I can do it and my size, then you
can definitely do it. It does. It doesn't speak
the same way. If you have a big bulky six foot
tall dude, you know. moving people around. Although
a lot of the techniques have helped people who
are, you know, bigger in stature. But so because
of the class going really well at FDIC, Aaron
Heller had people who had taken my class. I had
known him because at this point I was divorced
and I was dating somebody in the fire service
who actually worked for Aaron as well. And so
we all knew each other already, but somebody
had like sat in on my class and Aaron wanted
to give me a chance to teach with Onsen Training
Associates. So that was, I think my, I think
I started working for him after three years.
So really, really early on, which came with a
lot of judgments with teaching. But I think the
most important part was trying to stay true to
myself. I used to always give this lecture before
I taught. And a lot of the guys are like, stop
saying that, Jenny, you don't need to do it.
But I did it anyway. I don't care because I thought
it was really important to be authentic and honest.
Every time I taught victim removal or anytime
I taught something, I would give a disclaimer
like, hey, I've only been in the fire service
for, you know, two years, three years, four,
whatever it was. This is something that I was.
not good at that I was really passionate about
that I got training on. I haven't personally
had a victim that I've saved from a house, you
know, besides bunnies and dogs, but like, I always
say that open and honest because I never want
somebody to come back and be like, who do you
think you are? And what do you even know? You
don't have this in this much time. I know that.
I share that. I have nothing to hide. I'm not
trying to say I'm better than everybody else
or that I have so many years of experience. What
I'm trying to do is say that there's techniques
and tricks for people who are a little smaller
that can make this job better. Moving a person
is a lot different than moving a mannequin. And
that's something that became also very passionate
to me when I teach search or I teach VES or victim
removal. I use live victims because they don't
move the same way as a mannequin. We always train
on mannequins. And so, you know, the times have
changed from when I started teaching. A lot more
people are using real, real victims versus using
mannequins. But it makes a big difference with
your techniques. So. Anyway, Aaron decided to
give me a test run for teaching with him in Louisiana
in I think it was 2019. We had a burning the
bayou conference down there and it went well.
He asked me to officially join on scene training
associates and which was really one of the biggest
blessings that I could have in the fire service,
because here I am getting to teach for a company
that has so many experienced firemen from all
over the country. who are just true gentlemen
that are really uphold the values of integrity
and friendship and honesty. And, you know, here
he is, a guy who is in the textbooks, giving
me a chance to teach without the ego of, you
know, what do you know with only two years on
as a female? You know what I mean? And it really
was, he really helped build my confidence. like
truly believed in me before I even did like,
you know, so it was really, it was really pretty
amazing. I've been very, very fortunate as far
as that's concerned. But yeah, I mean, I, I've
gotten a lot of shit for teaching very early
on in my career. I've had people send me nasty
texts. I've been made fun of. I've been talked
to behind my back. I mean, that goes with anywhere
in the department. It goes outside of the department.
you know, people who've been teaching forever.
And, you know, the thing is, I think what's helped
is, um, like I said, I always, I always try and
stay as honest as I can about everything. Um,
my experience, um, my training, not every, like
if I learned something from a conference, I say
that, I don't say that I like came up with this
on my own. I learned it from people who've come
before me. I, you know, my class is a culmination
of a bunch of different people who have taught
me. Um, And along with things that I've spent
time trying to figure out. So, you know, that's
helped whenever I've had the naysayers and the
bullying or the attitudes. Or, I mean, my boss
posted that I was going to go teach somewhere
one time. And some random guy is like, what does
she know? She doesn't know anything. I don't
even know him. And it was nice because I didn't
have to say anything. And things like that don't
bother me anymore. They used to. You have to
have thick skin and know who you are. But it
was just nice because people who had taken my
class and people who knew me were like, you don't
know what you're talking about. You know, if
you knew her, you wouldn't say that. You know
what I mean? So it's just it's been an experience.
But I will say going through so many difficulties
and judgments definitely has made me stronger
for. uh, who I am as a person, um, accepting
who I am being myself unapologetically, like,
you know, there's a lot of judgments and thoughts
out there. And for people who don't like me,
that they're entitled to their opinion. And,
um, it's none of my business what they think.
So, you know, well, it's interesting because
I was been thinking recently about some of the,
again, Insta famous personalities, air quotes
that you see on social media. And I've had that
thought is that, you know, there's a lot of people
out there that don't have very much time on,
but it's also all about them. Here's me training
again. Here's me forcing a door again. Here's
me again, duck walking for the 15th time this
month. Right. And what's the difference between
what you've just talked about and many other
people out there that are doing great things
that don't have a lot of time on this humility.
And it's the same thing as the 30 year, you know,
FDNY rescue guy, Al. It's humility. And I've
had this. I've gone to the Florida State College
and I was working for Reedy Creek, my last department.
Oh, do they put wints on your pillows there?
And then four or five days into it, you're watching
them fumble fuck stuff and you're doing what
you're supposed to be doing. And the same at
the Orlando Fire Conference when we did VES with
Eric Wheaton. And you're going in there and you're
snatching dummies out. And it's like, yeah, because
you're not defined by the thing. You're defined
by who you are. And I think that one of the things
that really kills me is like the kind of, you
know, the firefighter of the year and all that.
There is no competition in the fire. So the only
person you're competing with is you. There is
no best firefighter because that guy might be
great at ropes and knots, but absolutely shit
with paramedicine. So, you know, like you said,
we are a Swiss army knife and we can't be phenomenal
at all the things. So having the humility to
understand that if you just focus on yourself.
And teach when you, you know, have the ability
to teach and you've found that you have a good
grasp of some areas and then keep learning from
other people that are either more well, excuse
me, more well -versed in that same thing or well
-versed in other areas. That's the, you know,
rising tide lifts all ships. But this ego, oh,
I'm from this department. Dude, you do the same
fucking job that everyone else. Let that shit
go. Oh, county is better than city. City is better
than county. Like, no. You are all doing the
same job. The only difference is if you take
your training seriously, you take your fitness
seriously, your rest and recovery, your ability
to cook a decent meal in the firehouse, your
ability to shut up and listen sometimes, that
is what's going to make you a great firefighter.
But your tenure, for example, is not a linear
relationship to being a good firefighter because
there are good examples of people with 25 years
on that are shit. in the fire service. And there
are examples of great probies. So it's humility
is everything, every rank, you know, every special
ops group, whatever it is, the moment you think
you are better than someone else, you've already
lost the fight. Absolutely. And I think you said
something that's really important there. Like,
I think there's a big difference between seniority
and the senior man, right? Like there, you have
a good, if you have a good senior man, who's
been on the job, who's willing to teach, who
knows that his you know, his shit inside and
out that that's, that's what isn't is important
versus the amount of years you have on, because
I've seen a lot of people who have spent no time
training and you know, they have tons of years
in the fire service, but what are they doing
about it? And, you know, it's, there's that balance
of like having things outside the fire service,
but it all in all, when you're doing your job
and you've been doing it this long, you should
be one of the better people at the job. Right.
Like. you got 20 years on, you should be the
best person on your crew. Right. Like that's,
it goes without saying, but that's not always
the case. Right. And you know, I, I, I have learned,
I've learned from so many different people that
I just. you know for me the the egotism and issues
in the fire service really if we could like set
that aside there's so many things we you could
just be learning all the time from people and
like um becoming a better version of yourself
like we we care more about what what what is
presented sometimes than the actual content like
who's presenting versus the content or you know
i it's It's something that I've always been very
passionate about. Well, one, because I got given
an opportunity early, which which was a difficult
it was a difficult thing to navigate. Like everyone's
like, oh, you know, you're so fortunate. But
also it was it wasn't like an easy decision to
decide to teach early. Right. I knew I was going
to get shit for it. I knew that I was going to
have a hard time. I knew that I was going to
be judged. I knew a lot of people were going
to talk behind my back. And, you know, that's
why it's. why, why I think what Mike told me
was so important. Like what's, what's my overall
goal? Is it to help people? Okay. Can you do
that? Are you going to do that? Okay. Well then
if you're doing things for the right reasons,
then just don't worry about what people think,
you know, and yeah, you can, you can absolutely
learn from anyone. I've learned lots of things
from brand new guys versus or guys that have,
you know, from anyone, you know, so. Yeah, 100%.
I think this is the thing. When you see yourself
as a fire service personality, then again, you're
missing the point. There has been no fire scene.
I'll give you a perfect example. There's a story
recently came out of these Texas floods where
this power rescue man made a bunch of saves,
and they interviewed him. And I was looking at
this going, that guy is a rock star, but you
know there was a cable, right? And at the top
of the cable was another guy and a pilot and
then the mechanics for that and the people, you
know what I mean? It's not just a person. It's
the same with us. I'll never forget being in
the Orlando fire conference a few years ago.
And one of these guys presenting one of these
fire service personalities basically screamed
at us for like an hour or 90 minutes about being
into the job. And I remember looking around going,
we're at a fucking fire conference. I think everyone
here is into the job. Can we move on? Everyone's
bought in. We're here. And it's the kind of bullshit.
So just like you said, it's not who's talking,
it's what's being said. And it might have been
way more compelling to have someone with two
years on in that particular instance that actually
was going to bring something new to the table
than the same old shit that you've heard from
some of these people for like 15, 20 years. So,
you know, again, it just circles around the humility.
All these people have value. I'm not saying they
don't. But the moment that you become a prima
donna in the fire service, an organization that's
supposed to be selfless, where you're focusing
on the people that we serve, then there's a huge
disconnect there. And I think this is where I've
had so much resistance because there's a lot
of people that are far more bought in with the
identity of being a firefighter than actually
what it means to be a firefighter. A hundred
percent. I mean, I think that's. You know, I
think I think it can fluctuate, too. I think
like, you know, because I teach fire academy
and a lot of the kids coming in, they're so excited.
Right. They're so excited. And, you know, I don't
want to steal their joy. I don't want anybody
to steal their joy. And then they get on to cruise
and they get with disgruntled people and the
attitude changes. And, you know, you have people
that that stay. excited for the job and then
you have people that kind of follow in with guys
that are kind of burnt out and you know it's
a fluctuation and and i think that it's it's
not inhuman to um to change your your viewpoints
multiple times throughout your career there's
been times where i have not wanted to be here
um i i was going to quit the fire service a few
years ago um i was just over everything i was
i was really having a hard time and um And at
that point, I didn't want to train. I didn't
want to do a lot of things. And it wasn't because
I didn't want to train. It was just because I
wasn't in the right mental state. I was having
some issues with depression and feeling a purpose
and motivation for the job and for any of it.
I was drinking a little bit more on a lot more
on my days off. I basically would like eat ice
cream, watch Grey's Anatomy and make a mimosa
at like 10 in the morning. And that was that.
I would still do everything. I was I was functioning.
I was teaching, but I was going through a really
hard time. And I think that the reason I'm bringing
it up as far as like there's different stages
you go in as a fireman. You might start out gung
ho and then. And then and stay that way for a
while or you might get burnt out. And then that
affects all the people around you. It affects
yourself. And then trying to find your way back.
I don't think it's an uncommon story. So I think
a lot of firemen that, you know, are not as excited
or don't want to train as much. They may have
lost some of their purpose or lost some of themselves
within this job. I think there's always a way
to come back. And it helps, I think, being in
a really good environment. My crew, I love my
crew. I love my officer. I have the greatest
crew. I truly do. And it's not just because I
think they're great firemen. It's because of
who they are. And having that kind of support
has helped me learn to love the fire service
again when there was a time where I just didn't
want anything to do with it anymore. You know
what I mean? Um, yeah, I think there's a lot
of guys in the fire service who, who want to
spend more time preaching about the job, but
yeah, I mean, I think it's human to go through
phases where you're not as excited, but I think
it's also really important to not to try for
the most part. I mean, nobody's perfect and we
all have our days and we live at the firehouse.
So you're not always on, right? Like you're not
always like ready to be that role model, but
I think it's important to try and keep. the newer
people, um, like motivated and not steal their
joy. And if they want to train, you train. I
have, I had a, I made a rule a long time ago
that if somebody, um, like a newer person comes
up to me and asks me to train, I never say no,
even if I'm tired or I'm not in the mood, I always
say yes. And there's been days that I have not
wanted to, I'm, I'm exhausted. And, you know,
it's just finding ways that. you can kind of
keep thriving in a job that is difficult to always
stay at the task at hand and stay motivated,
especially with so many difficulties with personalities
or administrative issues or crew issues or life
issues. It really is hard to stay in that mode
all the time, right? So, I mean. Yeah, I agree.
I think this is going back to the work week.
I mean, if you have a... more well -rested fire
department where they all not only go home when
they were supposed to but they get one extra
day between shifts now you you know you're not
only have they got rest and recovery so they're
physically able to to recover more because i
mean if you look at the physiology of sleep deprivation
it causes obesity hypertension diabetes all these
things that are breaking our people down but
then even the relationships the shame and guilt
of not being able to go to your kids function
that you promise them to i mean that's compounding
as well so i think you know this this whole kind
of revolution that we're starting to see here
in florida and then you add some fitness standards
into it's then going to raise the bar and the
motivation level will rise up but we've also
got to stop idolizing the air quotes, salty guy
and reframe it. Like, no, that's not how we're
supposed to be. Being pissed off and rude to
the patients is not salty. It's being a dick.
And the person going with that, if they were
super nice when they got hired, then let's have
this discussion. Obviously, they're going through
some things. So let's look at that with compassion
and empathy. But we've got to stop revering those
people because they're not the ones we should
be copying. The Al Benjamins are the ones that
we should be copying. But like you said, also
understanding that undulation 100%, you're not
always going to be the spark plug in the fire
station that day. But having your finger on the
pulse, maybe if Jenny has been on the downslope
for a while now, maybe we should check in on
Jenny. Yeah, absolutely. Touching on that then,
what was the lowest kind of point that you found
yourself? And then what were the tools you used
to pull yourself out of that hole? A few years
ago, I went through I was dating somebody who
is who's another fireman. And I told him that
he might come up in this podcast. And he's very
aware. And we're friends now. Everything's good.
But I was it was a very unhealthy relationship.
Um, even though we were both gung ho for the
fire service, um, everyone knew it was an unhealthy
relationship. Um, so we ended up being at the
same firehouse. We were both on the special ops
team, but different, different, uh, shifts, different
crews. Um, and, uh, we ended up going through
a breakup, um, which was really difficult because,
you know, it was dirty, you know, you, you like
going through a breakup. While working in the
same department, the same firehouse, it was very,
very messy. As far as dealing with things, he
ended up going to Shatterproof for a little while
to work on some things. But I kind of didn't
say anything. I was going through a really difficult
time, but there was a lot of attention towards
him. But I was really, I was really struggling
mentally. And on top of it, I wasn't really thriving
in the environment I was with at work. It just,
things could have been a lot better. I kept trying
to push and make things work and they weren't.
And I wasn't happy. And I had a lot going on
where, you know, mentally and emotionally because
of this breakup, it was very physically strenuous
and not good for my health. And then I got, I
had a few bad calls. I had a lot of stuff going
on in my personal life. Besides that, I was having
financial issues. I had somebody who came, you
know, came and knocked on my door to help. You
know, there was just weird things that were going
on that it was a lot all at once. Um, I was on
the combat challenge team still. I was on the
ops team. I was trying to keep everything afloat.
I was teaching and I just, I like broke and I
just wasn't doing well. Um, and, uh, so, and
I think some people knew, but like, I didn't
want to draw attention. I just felt like my personal
life and everything, she kept separate from work,
but, but also because there was so much attention.
going on with my ex. I just wanted everything
to be, I just wanted to do my job. I just wanted
to be left alone. And I just was not okay. I
wasn't okay. I was going through just like a
few different toxic environments. And I was done.
I was severely depressed. I was looking for jobs
outside the fire service. I was ready to leave.
That's when I broke out into, not too much longer,
I broke out into the hives. Um, and, and basically
I, um, I couldn't, I just couldn't get out of
this funk. I was kind of like, um, maybe there
was a part of me that was feeling like a victim,
like, um, oh, I, I had had all these things happen
to me. Um, you know, I, it's not my fault that
I'm depressed. I'm just kind of stuck. Um, so.
It actually, I basically got tired. I broke out
in the hives. I hurt my back doing the combat
challenge. My first time doing an individual
in Indianapolis, which was super humiliating
for me because one, I teach a class on victim
removal and I messed up on the dummy portion
of the combat challenge in front of everyone.
And it was broadcasted and I had hives the whole
week before. I was feeling terrible. I hurt my
back and I didn't say anything for. a couple
of weeks, I was in severe pain and I was just
like, that's it. Something's got to change. And
I'd already been for years listening to some
podcasts. I listened to a functional medicine
podcast. I started listening to that one during
COVID with Dr. Mark Hyman. And there, I, I, so
I was listening to things to kind of help try
and shift my mind. I got a new therapist. I was
diagnosed with ADHD a long time ago, which I
now think is kind of more of a symptom of a different
root cause, health, lifestyle. But at the time,
it was definitely contributing to my issues.
And my therapist recommended I go back on my
ADHD medication for a short period of time, which
there are reasons for medications. And that kind
of helped go over the hump of accomplishing things.
Like everything felt like a mountain. It felt
like if I had to send an email, it was like I
was climbing a mountain. Everything felt horrible.
And so I went on my medication. I got my, I had
a good therapist. I always had stayed working
out. That was something I do. I'd go work out
and then I'd go home and drink. It was just like,
you know, somehow I'd stay working out. But I
decided things need to change. And one of the,
one of the podcasts I listened to was actually
Mark Hyman. He interviews a lot of people, a
lot of. medical professionals and different specialists
um and he ended up interviewing dave asprey i
don't know if you know who he is he's like a
biohacker yes um but a lot of people are like
oh he's kind of crazy or he's awesome i don't
there's lots of different views on him i have
i have a lot of um you know I kind of extrapolate
the things that I really enjoy about what he
teaches or tries to go over. But so when he interviewed
him, there was a lot of things that I took in
and actually changed in my life because of this
interview, as far as taking electrolytes in the
morning, doing face plunges. But he spent like
five minutes on part of biohacking is being able
to like have a good state of mind, which means
that you need to work on the F word, which is
forgiveness, right? Learning to forgive. people
or things in your life that have happened. But
not just like, because like, for example, I wanted
to forgive things that went on with my ex. And
I would say that I would, that I had forgiven.
But the truth is, I was still triggered and upset
when I thought about it. And that's not true
forgiveness. And forgiveness more than anything
is for yourself, right? And sometimes you need
to forgive yourself to be able to move on in
life. So like, he went over this. It was like
five minutes of this way to truly forgive someone.
And it completely changed my life. I had a whole
new perspective on the way that I was going to
move along going forward. And it made me just
appreciate these difficult times I've been through.
Because I think you truly gain so much in life
from your transgressions, from your difficulties,
like the trauma you say as a child. Once that
was able to process and happen, I started doing
a little better. I decided that luckily one of
my girlfriends from college, she called me up
and she's like, can we please get the fuck out
of town? She's a doctor now because all my friends
from college are doctors because they actually
stayed on their path. But she's like, can we
go on a surf trip, please? And I was like, yes.
And so I decided I had listened to the podcast.
My back was hurt. I was, I decided after I get
back from, we went to Costa Rica, I decided I
was going to do 75 hard when I got back from
Costa Rica. So I, but before that, I just decided
I'm going to be happier. Right. Like, I know
that sounds kind of stupid to decide to be happier,
but like. I truly think the more time you spend
deciding to be happy and smiling, eventually
your body doesn't know the difference between
you faking it and you doing it. And it made a
big difference. I decided if I was given a difficult
situation, I would just laugh instead of spend
time stressing and crying about it. So me and
my girlfriend, we took off to Costa Rica. We
surfed, we drank tea, we did yoga. We laid on
the beach, we journal, we read, we read books.
And it was like. the best reset I could have
had. And then when I came back, I did 75 hard,
which I'm sure you know what that is. Yeah. Yeah.
You can tell people listening if they haven't
heard it though. Okay. So it's 75 days of two
workouts a day. One has to be outside 45 minutes
each. You drink a gallon of water a day. You
have to pick a diet and stick to it. I just chose.
to not eat inflammatory gluten or dairy, basically,
because it causes a lot of inflammation in the
body. What else? You have to read 10 pages of
a nonfiction book and you don't drink alcohol.
So you do that for 75 days. And that was probably
the longest time I'd gone without drinking since
I was a kid. And on top of that, like, which
I thought I was going to have a hard time doing,
but the truth is I had never felt better. And
so truly fixing my mental health was taking care
of my body. It was a lot of things, right? It
was finding people to help me emotionally and
mentally, but then also changing my diet, getting
some sun. It was when going on the surf trip
was me getting back to. my passion before the
fire service. So when I got, when I joined the
fire service, I basically quit surfing, um, which
kind of sucks because it's such a, um, it's so
good for the soul. Um, but, uh, so I went back
on this surf trip and it just reignited my love
for surfing. Um, I was able to just. I decided
I wasn't going to think about anything work related.
I didn't want to talk to anybody about work.
I didn't want to think about work. I went with
a friend from college. It was like the first
trip I had taken in forever. That wasn't with
a fireman of some sort, you know, like for a
fire conference or a training. It was just to
like go. And I came back. I did 75 hard, which
was amazing. I decided that I needed to change
my environment. And, you know, I just. I wasn't
thriving at the firehouse I was at. And I had
a meeting and asked if I could change, basically
change where I was at. I just needed to change
a pace. And, you know, I said, if that leaves
me, if that means leaving the special operations
team, I'd like to do that. They recommended that
I stay on the team, but just we have two different
firehouses that did special ops. So I changed.
uh shifts and firehouses and that really helped
i just needed a different scene a change of you
know pace and scenery sometimes you've got to
change your environment to help change you know
everything else in your life and i just needed
a big change i needed everything to be different
um and it helped because little by little i was
finally able to start um enjoying things about
the fire service again um, enjoy things at the
job. I took a lot more care of myself. I surfed
a lot more. I hung out with friends that weren't
in the fire service and it, and it just really
reiterated the importance to me of like you,
the fire services is super important and you
need to train and you, you need to be good at
your job. And you like, I think it's, you shouldn't
do this job without being all in, but at the
same time, You definitely need that balance.
You need the things where if work isn't going
well, if the fire service isn't going well, you
need something that you can rely on and depend
on because if not, it is where I was left, where
I felt like I had nothing. I didn't have anything
to show in my life. I had put all my eggs in
this one basket and when it wasn't working out
at the time, I just, I didn't know what to do
with myself. Um, I've had to learn to say no
to a lot more things, right? That was part of
me doing better. Um, I quit the combat challenge
team, which yes, is a fitness thing, but it was
very time consuming. It was very tough on the
body. I have to work a bunch of, I was, you know,
I teach fire Academy. I work for on -scene training
and I do work out all the time. I just, I had
to start saying no to things that were taking
up a bunch of time in my life where I needed
to focus on my mental health, my rest. my relationships.
So that's what I did. And it made all the difference
in the world. And then because of making all
these changes, it catapulted me into want to
get my health coach certification, which I've
been doing for the past year. And I'm just finishing
that up right now. So which has really given
me a lot of tools and lectures that have just
really expanded my mind so much it's it's um
it's a lot of holistic stuff but they i love
the science behind holistic and wellness treatments
versus just medications because there's so much
science behind it and everyone's like oh this
is just weird shit but really Like there's there's
so much science behind different breathing techniques
for reducing anxiety, the different nutrients
you can get from your food, getting proper sunlight,
doing ice plunges and all the things in the way
it affects your nervous system, your inflammation.
It's like super important. So it kind of just
led me towards that. So, yeah, it's funny when
you were talking about, you know, your reset
really was a surf trip. And then you go back
to. your husband at the time slap you on the
shoulder because they'd met this person that
had all this time to surf. Yeah. There is the
facade of the fire service from the outside looking
in, Oh, they got best job in the world, you know,
and not to dive into the whole work week thing
yet again, but, and then you have the identity
piece, you know, you go all in and you become
just a firefighter and this is a danger. You
get hurt. You, you know, you retire, whatever
the thing is. And that's all you've been because
that was like, now I'm tough, I'm strong, I'm
a protector, I'm whatever, I'm valuable in society.
And then it's stripped from you. And it's like,
well, who the hell am I then? But you were always
that same person. This is what I tell people.
You had a heart to serve. This is the yin and
the yang of the first responder. It was kindness
and compassion, if you were doing the job for
the right reasons, that sent you into uniform.
And then we become this white circle, all hard.
And then we come out the other end, like, you
know, a fire version of Robocop and then wonder
why we fall apart. Because you forgot that you
were a human being that does the job of firefighting,
that does the job of being a paramedic. That's
not who you are. Who you are is a person that
wants to make the world a little bit better.
So as you transition out or you hit pause, you're
reminded like, oh, no, no, the mission is exactly
the same. This is just a uniform that I wear
at this time. And I love what I do. But when
this goes away, I'm still going to want to make
the world better. And this is what I found with
this, the podcast and then the books and now
the TV show I'm developing. The potential number
of lives that I'm planning with this next project
could be in the millions. Whereas I can only
respond to one incident at a time in the back
of a rig. So it's a force multiplier thing. So
same exact mission, different uniform. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, I think that's part of me getting
my health coach certification is. wanting to
bring more awareness and health to people around
me and ways that you can improve in it without
having to spend a lot of money or you don't necessarily
need a gym or whatever. Like it's just wanting
to be able to improve health and find ways because
like once you start feeling good and you realize
you can get out of that hole that you dug yourself
into, you want other people that. be able to
experience that and know that there is a way
out. I think I honestly think I think every fireman
should have a therapist. I think it's just a
matter of time. It's not when it's or not if
it's when you're going to need that extra mental
support for whatever is going on, whether it's
home life or calls and or just the culmination
of all of it mixed in with the health. And I
couldn't agree more that. There's lots of ways
to make a huge impact on people, you know, you
with your podcast and being able to share different
stories and change people's lives. I mean, I
listened to a podcast that changed my life. There
was like a five minute portion and it changed
the whole trajectory of my life just by listening
to that one part. So I 100 % agree. Yeah, I think
that. With with working on my health coach certification,
it was really funny because not funny, but ironic.
I ended up going through a weird health issue
out of nowhere that started last August. I became
like allergic out of nowhere, out of nowhere
to like different fruits like mango, strawberry,
banana, banana and pineapple, like turning red
throat, closing like out of nowhere. And I went
to go see all these doctors and my blood would.
blood work would come back normal. And I would
get this lump that started growing on the side
of my head, pictures of it all. I went to an
endocrinologist and he's like, Jenny, if you
didn't have these pictures, no one would believe
you. And I'm like, I know, I don't know what's
going on. And I had to start carrying around
an EpiPen and no one could figure out what was
going on. And I'm in the middle of my health
coach certification and everyone. Everyone, I
have been prone to weird illnesses and weird
things since I was younger. I've had meningitis.
I've had osteomyelitis. I've been in the hospital
multiple times for hypokalemia. I just have strange
things that don't happen to everyone else. I'm
sure there's somewhere in there, it's the culmination
of traumas and issues that have caused issues
with my immune system and my health. And I'm
sure the stress response from what I went through
before is showing up in my body later. And it's
interesting, the science behind trauma actually
causing staying in your fascia. Cortisol will
get stuck in your tissues. You actually have
to release it. It's a pretty interesting phenomenon.
I ended up having to figure out ways to work
on my health and I ended up seeing a functional
medicine doctor and I did all these supplements
and long story short, it basically was a very
strange time to go through while I'm trying to
get my health coach certification. I have a weird
undiagnosed illness and having to navigate that
and that's one of the things that I eventually
want to help people through is being able to
listen to their bodies. Knowing you're not crazy
if something's going on. Finding ways to overcome
it. And a lot of the times it really just has
to do with, I don't think anything will get better
in your life until you can be mentally well and
you can start working on your happiness. And
I truly believe in that. So anyway, that's just
another. So for people listening, if they want
to, you know, reach out to you, follow you or
even be able to see when you start doing the
health coaching as well, where are the best places
online to do that? I guess right now, Instagram
is probably the easiest to reach me. Or, you
know, you can send an email, but. Instagram is
a little easier or Facebook. My Instagram is
firechick880. It was something I picked a long
time ago and it just stuck. But you can, I mean,
you can email me. My email is jenny .grima at
gmail .com. But yeah, a lot of people usually
try and reach out on social media and Facebook
on Instagram. I do plan on I'm in the middle
of studying for the lieutenant's test, which
is it's finished with in October. So after that,
I wanted to focus a little bit more on the health
coach side and being able to work with people
who were interested. So, yeah. Brilliant. Well,
I want to thank you so much. It's been such an
amazing conversation. Yet another unique perspective,
especially like you said. entering the world
of instruction with you know a couple of years
in the fire service specifically but that's not
negating all the teaching you did before as well
and then the physical fitness side as well so
i want to thank you so much for being so generous
with your time and coming on the behind the shield
podcast today absolutely it's an honor i really
appreciate it