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Welcome to episode 482 of Behind the Shield podcast.
As always, my name is James Gearing and this
week it is my absolute honor to welcome on the
show Debbie Lee. Now Debbie is not only the mother
of Mark Lee, who was the very first Navy SEAL
killed in Iraq in Ramadi, but she herself has
an incredibly powerful story and is so courageous
in telling these stories. She endured a very
unusual childhood, domestic abuse to the point
of almost being killed by her previous husband,
losing another husband to suicide, and then obviously
losing Mark in combat. But she was able to work
through her grief and start an incredible foundation
called America's Mighty Warriors. Before we get
to that conversation, as I say every single week,
please just take a moment, go to whichever app
you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,
leave feedback, and most importantly, leave a
rating. Every five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, making it easier for others to
find. And this is a free library of almost 500
episodes now. So all I ask is that you pay it
forward, that you share these incredible men
and women's stories so I can get them to everyone
else who needs to hear them. So with that being
said, I introduce to you, Debbie Lee. Enjoy.
Well, Debbie, I want to start by saying firstly
that it was an absolute honor to meet you at
the Echelon Front event, but also I want to thank
you for taking the time to come on the Behind
the Shield podcast today. You bet. I'm excited
to be here today and get to speak with you and
looking forward to it. Absolutely. So where on
planet Earth are we finding you today? I am in
Surprise, Arizona. And yes, that's really the
name of the town. I don't think I've ever heard
of that town before. Yeah, and I don't know.
It's a suburb of Phoenix, so I don't know if
a long time ago, you know, the... Our ancestors
were going across the country and they found
some water here and they went, surprise, or why
it's named that. But it's a very unique name.
I've been a widow for 27 years and was on a dating
website a long time ago. But one of the guys
never communicated with him. He just wrote, oh,
you're one of those women that you won't even
tell somebody where you live. You put you live
in Surprise, Arizona. I'm like, click, delete.
Absolutely. post -divorce thrown into that internet.
Well, actually my wife now I found from match
.com. So I have to say, you know, there are some
good people out there, but yeah, that was definitely
an interesting experience. I'm sure you saw the
highs and the lows in that field. Yes. Yes, very
much so. Yeah. People can make themselves out
to be something pretty cool. I don't know how
they don't realize that. if it works into something,
you're eventually going to meet them and you're
going to see the reality of it. But I had one
guy on there that put, he was six foot one. I'm,
I'm five 10. So I'm pretty tall. And we walked
in the restaurant. He was about five foot six.
And I was like, so did he not think I wouldn't
notice? But he was sitting down. I thought it
was kind of odd when I first walked in because
he was sitting down and didn't get up when I
came to the booth. And so I didn't didn't realize
it till, you know, we were leaving and I was
like, OK, yeah, but it's interesting. But great
for you that you were able to find someone. That's
awesome. Yes. Yeah, that's the thing. So. Don't
give up. All right. So then, as you know, I love
to start chronologically at the very beginning.
You have a very interesting early life. So I
would love to spend some time kind of exploring
that. So tell me where you were born and then
tell me about your family dynamic, what your
parents did and how many siblings you had. OK,
well, I was born in Greeley, Colorado. My very
unique, wow, just let's throw that in asking
about the siblings. I'm either an only child
or come from a family of 13. So my mom got pregnant
with me. She was 17 years old. And, you know,
that things were a lot different back then. And
they were trying to, that I wouldn't be, obviously
I was conceived out of wedlock, but, you know,
they want to try to make everything look normal.
So my grandmother. arranged for my mom to marry
my grandmother's boyfriend. So my mom was 17.
He was 35. Now, my mom and I are totally different
personalities. If my mom would have come to me
and told me that, I've been like, oh, heck no,
I'm going to raise this baby by myself. I'll
be fine. Thank you very much. I'm marrying that
old fart. But my mom was very compliant. I'm
sure she was very scared at that point to find
out that she was pregnant and had no idea how
she was going to raise this. this child. So my
mom and the man that I thought was my dad who
raised me, you know, most of my life and who
I do consider my father. You know, he was a police
officer, was a sergeant in the police department.
And they then had my brother. Well, actually,
a year later, they got pregnant with twins. And
one died. They both died shortly after childbirth.
One lived. about 24 hours, one lived 48 hours.
And then a year later, they got pregnant with
my brother Vance, who I grew up with, who I did
not know, you know, wasn't a full brother, didn't
know anything different. And then my mom went
through a divorce and remarried again. They had
a little boy and then she got divorced and married
again. And at 55, they tried to have children
as well. She married a bachelor who'd never been
married. And thank goodness they didn't. Because
I have a brother who's just a few years older
than my oldest son. I could have had a brother
a few years older than my grandchildren. That
is not normal. So I had a strange upbringing.
I did finally meet my biological father when
I was 16. My mom and I were fighting. And she
said, you don't even know who your father is.
And I was like. Do you? Because she had been
pretty promiscuous in between some marriages.
We shared a bedroom and, you know, there were
things that happened in there when I was supposedly
sleeping that, you know. So it left it left scars
on me, you know, and so I was, you know, very
angry with my mother, very upset with her as
a 16 year old. You know, we all kind of go through
that testing the waters rebellious age, you know,
and I maybe tested the waters a little more than
than most people. But then did meet my biological
dad at 16, kind of put the pieces of the puzzle
together, because when I was 11, I was already
five foot nine. My mom was five foot six. My
dad was five foot five. There wasn't really anybody
very tall in my family. So I was always like,
what am I, a freak? You know, how did I? And
I met my dad and he was six foot four. So then
I was like, oh, OK, well, this makes sense now.
But and he had married after my mom and him,
you know, had been together and he had three
children. from that first marriage, then he married
again, she had a son, they had a son, and then
he married again, and she had four boys. So it's,
you know, very much dysfunctional family, we
probably could have written a book on dysfunctional
family. But it, you know, it's those things now,
as I look back, it didn't make any sense to me,
I was not happy with where my life was, you know,
growing up. And as a teenager, and like I said,
I did, you know, rebel. But very much now I see
those are those trials and tragedies in my life
that I went through that developed that character.
And I don't know if it was something just kind
of ingrained in me. You know, I am a strong -willed
personality. And I think that's what gave me
the ability to say, I'm not going to let these
things take me down. You know, I'm going to persevere.
I am going to, you know, rise above this. child
and a teenager I don't think you have the ability
to do that but part of that personality that
was in me and then as I grew as an adult then
obviously those choices you know that I made
to say I'm not quitting I'm not quitting I'm
not quitting I'm not giving up but those are
those things that developed that character and
that personality you know in the early stages
of my life you know now with as you mentioned
that that rather unusual marriage and you see
that in in other cultures you know in india and
places like that where you have these arranged
marriage there may be a a large age gap um were
they able to find love together was it always
tumultuous um you know obviously i i was a young
child they divorced when i was about 11. i felt
like that that they had found you know love but
Looking back, I think it was very much he was
kind of that father figure in her life. She had
also come up from a dysfunctional family. He
very much was that protector, you know, and provider.
She wanted to go back to college and get her
degree, and she did. You know, he worked so she
could do that, provided that way so she could
go back and get her degree in education. I know
that, you know, I was his little girl. He cherished
me and loved me. you know, to pieces. But I think
it was very much more that I'm going to be your
provider. I'm going to be your protector. The
arrangement originally was they would just get
married. I would be born and then they would
annul the marriage. So obviously, you know, they
chose not to do that for, you know, whatever
reason at that point. So there must have been
something that was there. But I don't know that
it was the normal, you know, young love. You
fall in love with each other, you know. But definitely
he provided a lot for my mom to be able to fulfill
some of those dreams that she had in her life.
You know, he eventually had some problems that,
you know, and he ended up in the mental hospital.
And that was when, you know, the marriage then,
you know, started to fall. I'm sure it fell apart.
Before that point, you know, as a child, I didn't
notice, didn't see those things. But yeah, unfortunately,
had some mental health, you know, problems. Yeah.
And he said he was a police officer. Yes, he
was a police officer. Yeah. So sadly, I mean,
that's something that we see a lot, whether it's
addiction or depression or anxiety or even suicide.
I mean, that is that is rife in our professions.
It is very much so. You know, I do remember that
there was one of the police officers that he
was very close to. As I recall, my dad was not
actually on that call when they went. His name
is James Longfellow. I'm not sure how this many
years later I remember that gentleman's name,
but he was shot and severely wounded and was
a paraplegic, you know, for a long time. And
I'm not sure the situation. as the story was
told to me was um was back this tells you how
long ago it was back when we still had parking
meters and they put change in the parking meters
but um part of his job somewhere was then to
collect that money from the parking meters i'm
not sure why as a sergeant you would be out doing
those kind of things but it was a small town
and um or if it was when the money was brought
in but he ended up stealing the money from the
parking meters and it He couldn't live with himself.
You know, it drove him crazy. I'm sure looking
back now and the work that we do with veterans
and understanding what they see, you know, the
law enforcement, our veterans, all our first
responders, what they see when they go on calls,
what they deal with on a daily basis that weighs
heavily on them. And like you said, they struggle
with the post -traumatic stress. They struggle,
you know, with suicidal thoughts constantly.
And so I do looking back, you know, I have a
better understanding of some of those things
that he went through. But I remember I was a
cheerleader in high school and I remember going
down to get our cheerleading uniforms in downtown
Denver. And at the time, Lamar Street or Larimer
Street, Larimer Street was not like it is now
with all these fancy restaurants and shops. It
was the dumps. And that's where the bums were
at. And I remember we had to walk about two blocks
through that area to get to where we ordered
our cheerleading uniforms and walk by a doorstep.
And there was my my dad, you know, as a bum huddled
up on that doorstep. And it was just like, oh,
my gosh, that's that's my dad, you know. And,
you know, I'm there with my other friends from,
you know, from high school, the other cheerleaders
that were with me. And it was just. You know,
and I couldn't even stop. You know, I was just
like, oh, my gosh, what do I do? How do I handle
this? That's my dad. You know, of course, they
divorced already. And so he'd been gone from
the home for a while. But he did then later in
life kind of, you know, pick himself back up
out of that and was not homeless or a bum anymore.
But, you know, these are those things that you
bury. you know, in your psyche, and you don't
think about you don't talk, I have not thought
about this for, for years and years and years.
But, you know, you go back and you go, Oh, my
gosh, you know, that's, that's, that's personal.
But that's crazy that, you know, that was my
childhood, you know, that was my teen years.
That's, you know, I count my blessings that I'm
not, you know, locked up somewhere in a mental
hospital or totally, you know, have lost it.
But, you know, Like I said, I have not thought
about that for years and years and years. But
those are those things of your life that you
have to move past. You can't get stuck there.
You can't say, okay, this is the cards that has
dealt me. This is my life. I'll never be anything.
I can't, you know, rise above this challenge.
You know, that is. so much a mindset in life.
And I will be 67 here in a few weeks. So I've
had lots of years, you know, and lots of tragedies
and trials and circumstances, as we all do, you
know, my circumstance may be a little bit unique.
And that, you know, no one else can say this,
you know, saw their dad as a homeless bum, you
know, in a corner somewhere, but We've all got
those trials and those tragedies that we go through
in our life, and we do have a choice. We don't
have a choice that the circumstance that was
handed to us, but we do have a choice how we
respond. And that's in all of us, no matter what
our education level is, no matter what our background,
no matter what we are, social status, no matter
what color we are, no matter what faith we are,
we all have that ability. in us to stop, say,
here's the cards that have been dealt to me.
Here's the choice I'm going to make. And obviously,
my son was a Navy SEAL. And I think back to those
hell week when they have four hours of sleep
for the entire week. And they get 20 minutes
here, 10 minutes there. And I'm sure those 20
minutes, you know, seem like forever when you
don't get any sleep. But I'll tell you what,
if I had an amazing night's sleep last night.
If I'd have had four hours sleep last night,
you and I would barely be having this conversation
because I'd keep going, I'm sorry, what was it
I just said? Where was I at? What was I talking
about? So I can't imagine having four hours sleep
for an entire week and still being able to function,
being sit out on boats, having the boat portage
where you're being knocked up against the rocks
and the waves and being out in the sand and getting
wet and sandy and running and they're just pushing
you to your limits. But their body gets to a
place where it says, I can't. I cannot run one
more stride. I can't swim one more stroke. I'm
done. I'm physically on toast. And their bodies
really are physically toast. And yet it's their
mind that says, no, keep going. One more stroke.
One more stride. Keep going. Don't quit. One
more. One more. And that's the mentality that
we have to have no matter what we're faced with
in life. You know, those tragedies and trials
mold us and shape us if we make those choices
than to take one more step to see what's next.
And if any of those stages in my life, I would
have stopped and given up. then we wouldn't be
where we're at today with our foundation and
the impact that we're making. You know, we wouldn't,
I wouldn't be, have 11 grandkids that I get to
love on and encourage. I'd be home and they'd
be having to take care of me, you know? And so
again, that's totally a mindset that any of us
can choose to make no matter how much pain we're
in. You know, you can still say, I am going to
get up today. And I, maybe I'm not, don't have
the ability to say, I'm going to run a marathon
today. But I'm going to get up and I'm going
to run up and down one flight of stairs. And
that's where we start with those little tiny
steps and those little tiny choices. And once
you make that, then it's easier to make one more.
And you make choices to make sure that you're
eating healthy and that you're exercising and
that your mindset, you're training that with
good things that you're reading. I'm a believer
for my quiet time every morning is crucial for
my day. And that has been for... for lots of
years. And so you make those plans and choices
in your life to do those things. Beautiful. I
mean, it's so important to hear that. And I agree
100%. But I think what's also tragic about, you
know, the memory you just had is something I
talk about a lot of these homeless people that
we see, let's say forget a lot, all of these
homeless people that we see, have trauma in their
life, you know, and that point, there may be
the low, hopefully, they're able to come back
out of it. Many don't. But I think we have a
lot of us that are doing much better now. And
I feel like if we looked at homelessness, if
we looked at addiction, all these other elements
as mental health issues, and then we're empathetic
and compassionate towards these people and help
raise them up, we won't have a homeless problem
anymore. But how many homeless, I mean, I know
of homeless people that were fully functional,
very successful nurses, that were veterans. you
know, were firefighters and, you know, then they're
reduced to, oh, that bum that lives under the
bridge. No, that's a human being that started
off as a, you know, bubbly little toddler and
then life happens. So I think that balance of
ownership, which obviously, you know, you're
fully aware of, you walk the walk and you're
around, you know, Jocko and those guys that certainly
preach that, but also the environment to lift
up the broken and give them that foundation so
they can then start taking those steps. Yeah,
very much so. And that is contagious. When you're
out there sharing your struggles and you're sharing
your story and how you came from where you were,
whether it's homelessness, a dysfunctional family,
being left with the loss of a loved one. I've
walked through that twice, losing a husband and
losing a son. Whether you deal with... A marriage
is falling apart, abuse in a marriage, you know,
you've lost your job. Again, those are circumstances
that are tragic, but they don't have to define
who you are. You can make that choice than to
say, okay, this was, you know, for me, I look
back at, you know, the first marriage that I,
you know, had, it was a terrible choice. And
I knew that my mom forbid me to marry him and
talk about strong will just to piss her off.
I did it. You know, I'm like, nobody's going
to prove to me. Nobody's going to tell me I can't
do anything. Watch this. And the consequences
came back on me. So that was a stupid choice
that I made that then I suffered consequences
because he was an alcoholic and a drug user.
I did not know that when I married him. I knew
he liked to drink and party and have fun. I never
saw, you know, the drug usage or was aware of
that, but didn't realize it was an alcoholic
either. But he was great if he wasn't drinking,
you know, or doing his drugs. But man, he was
Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde and very abusive and almost
killed me at the age of 23. But so those are
things that when I look back on, yes, it was
my stupid choice. We make stupid choices in life.
You know, you look back at my loss of Mark. That
was not my choice at all. You know, that was
the evil in this world, the savages, as Chris
Kyle used to call, you know, the terrorists that,
you know, killed Mark. That wasn't anything.
So we have circumstances, some that are our own
stupid choices, some that are not. But we can
still respond that way to that. I can look back
and say, you know, I can apologize and I can
take care of. The consequences because of my
choices that I'm responsible for. But then you
don't let that consume you either. You don't
say, well, I can't do anything else. Look, this
is what I went through. I had a husband, you
know, who tried to kill me. I can't I can't.
What am I going to do? You know, no. Yes, you
have to heal. You can't ignore it and act like
nothing happened. I can't look back at Mark's
loss. and and go on with life and act like nothing
ever happened I would be in a looney tune bin
somewhere because you have to accept that you
have to process through that but you have to
do it in a healthy way you know not relying on
drugs and alcohol I get it when people self -medicate
when they're in pain I totally understand the
pain you know they say the toughest loss you
could ever go through is the loss of a child
and I can tell you having lost a husband and
lost a child. That is so true. There is nothing
tougher than losing your kid. It's not supposed
to be that way. But as you go through those losses,
you have to process through the stages. They
say there's seven stages of grief in all the
books you read. I don't know. There's seven stages
for everybody. That's a good guideline to tell
people. But I never went through the anger stage
of grief with Mark. I knew. that God had a plan.
I knew that he was still in control. I'd seen
him walk me through death before. He was still
the same God on August 2nd as he was on August
1st. He hadn't changed. My circumstances had
drastically changed, but he hadn't changed. I
knew he would see me through. I knew there would
be pain. I knew I couldn't just say, oh, I'm
fine. Everything's good. I tell people those
tears and grieving. are part of that healing
process. And you have to let them flow. Don't
bottle them up inside. But on the other hand,
don't sit and cry all day long. When I know we're,
you know, leading up to August 2nd, it'll be
15 years that Mark gave his life. I know those
are tough days. You know, I haven't been one
through one anniversary, 15 years out. That's
not painful. And I know that. So I prepare for
that. Mark's last letter home talks about doing
more random acts of kindness. And he says we
could change our world by doing more random acts
of kindness. He said, when's the last time you
paid for a stranger's cup of coffee or meal or
tank of gas? So I do those things. I go out to
the base and I find veterans and I buy tanks
of gas all day long. I buy coffee in the, you
know, PX where the coffee's at. I buy meals.
And then I give them a copy of Mark's letter
and thank them for their service. That is so
encouraging, so rewarding to do that. And so
that helps me through that day. I prepare for
that that way. I'm honoring Mark. But those are
those things that you learn in life, no matter
what your circumstances are that you're going
through the struggles. You learn how to process
through that. You don't avoid it. You don't go
above it, around it, beyond it. You got to go
smack through the middle of it to get to the
healthier side. And I've had lots of life experience
to be able to. to practice that and work on that.
You know, you wish you didn't have to go through
so much, but I look back and I wouldn't be who
I am today if it wouldn't have been having to
go through those to mold me and shape me. I think
God knew, you know, that strong will that he
gave me, but that I was using it not according
to how he wanted me to use it. Once I made the
choice to do what he wanted me to do, then, man,
you can't stop a strong -willed person when they're
going in the right direction and their perseverance
and, you know. So that was a gift, but I had
to learn how to use it the right way. Yeah, absolutely.
Well, you talked about the road that made you
strong. So firstly, before we get to the marriage
and obviously the kids that you had, when you
were at the school age, what were you dreaming
of being career -wise? Ah, boy, now you're going
to really take me back to think about what was
I thinking career -wise? That's a great question.
I don't remember any specifics. And I'm one of
those those people that my memory and not just
because I'm going to be 67, but I've always been
that way, that there's not a lot that I do remember,
good or bad. And I think part of that is a protection
and that you don't remember, you know, like that
moment a moment ago when I went back to that
memory that I hadn't thought about in so many
years. I know that. I did, you know, want to
be a pilot, but I don't remember what age that
memory came. But I know that I wanted to be a
pilot. There were not a lot of obviously not
a lot of women pilots back then. So that was,
you know, going to be an extra push to be able
to make that happen. And that is what I ended
up going to college for to become a pilot. But
I don't remember. I know I always wanted to be
a mom. I wanted to raise kids. I know that was
always very passionate in my heart. I love children.
And I, you know, and I think that was probably
one of my biggest ones. I know I had lots of
scholarships when I graduated from high school
and I turned them all down. You know, I got married
young. I got married at 18. But that was really
what I wanted to be. It was, you know, I wanted
to be a mom and a wife, you know. Well, walk
me through that then. So, you know, as you said,
you got married young. So what was that period
like? You mentioned that there were some very
dark times that were kind of from the inception
to having your first child kind of walk me through
that several year journey. Sure. So, like I said,
I got married. I had just turned 18, July 26th,
and we got married August 11th. So I was very
young, but I had started working at the bank
when I was 16. I had left home. When I was young,
I already had my own apartment and was working
full -time. I was very established for an 18
-year -old financially, I guess. Not that I had
any huge savings accounts or money set aside,
but I thought I was doing pretty doggone good
for 18. They called me the baby of the bank because
I was the youngest employee they had. We had
a, you know, apartment. I was loving being out,
you know, on my own and playing. I think we were
playing life. I don't know that the reality of
what we were doing really was considered. But
noticed, you know, fairly early in the marriage
when he drank, you know, that if I would make
a comment to him or say anything or express my
disappointment or upset in what was happening.
Then the abuse did not start, you know, right
away from him beating me. It would be, I remember
the first thing that happened was he would act
like he was going to throw a punch at me. And
then just before it'd get to my face, then he'd
like itch his nose. And so it was just that intimidation,
that fear factor. And then it got to be, you
know, each time it would get a little worse.
Of course, the next day he would swear up and
down and apologize. It'll never happen again.
I'm so sorry. You know, he would bring me a gift
or a present or flowers, you know, or make me
a meal or just, you know, and you want to believe.
And for me, I was, I knew that marriage was for
life. When I went into that marriage, even though
I was. rebellious with my reason why I think
even more so I was going to prove to my mom this
would work. And so, you know, she never knew
half the stuff that was going on behind the scenes,
because then that would validate that she was
right. And God forbid at that age, I could say
my mother was right. But and so it just over
time would progress a little bit more, you know,
the violence then would be a shove. And then
it would be, you know, a punch. And then, you
know, we were married four and a half years and
it got pretty violent and aggressive at the end
to the point where my neighbor, we were living
in apartments and he had heard me screaming and
yelling. Thank goodness we'd separated. My husband
and I had separated and he'd been at the bar.
It was 2 .15 in the morning. I should have gone,
yeah, the bar's just closed. He's probably drunk.
No, don't let him come back. But he said, I'm
coming back to get my stuff. And for me, that
was, okay, he's finally accepted that. And he
came back to get his stuff. And there was one
of those little six -pack coolers. And he came
down with my oldest son in his arms, who was
two and a half then. And the cooler was packed
with his clothes. And he said, I'm taking my
son. And I remember saying over my dead body
and. Didn't realize how close that would be at
that point. So he threw Chris on the couch and
proceeded to start to beat me. Sorry. When he
came. When he came that night. When he went up
to get his stuff, I came downstairs and I left
the door cracked open in case I needed to run.
And fortunately, like I said, we lived in condos
and the neighbor next door heard me screaming
and yelling and came in. He said he thought at
that point that I probably was dead because I
was limp on the couch and I was being choked.
And he said, you kind of had a bluish tent to
you. And yet the whole time my son is sitting
on the couch watching this. They started fighting
and the guy was a big guy, you know, six foot
four. My kid's father wasn't very big. And so
there was a pretty good fight, you know, that
pursued. And I was able to then, you know, kind
of wake up a little bit and get up. And I grabbed
Chris and ran next door and we called the police.
And Greg finally got away. I think. probably
when the police came, but I still to this day,
I don't understand why the police didn't go inside
and get him. I know he had a very violent, aggressive,
had been arrested several times, had knife people.
He was kicked out of the military because he
had gotten in a fight with two sailors, and one
of them had, I don't know, some ridiculous 200
-some stitches or something. So, you know, he
had a record, and I do know that, you know, the
domestic abuse is the worst. circumstances you
can get into for a police officer. And, but for
whatever reason, they didn't go into the apartment.
My daughter who was six months old at the time
was still in there and I was concerned for her.
And so I basically put my ear against the wall
and was like, okay, if I hear her crying or screaming,
I am going back in there. I don't care what the
outcome is. I've got to do that. And I never,
you know, didn't hear her, but. And my ex was
in the kitchen boiling hot water at the stove
and throwing it out the window at the police
officers. It's just, you know, it was just weird
stuff that was going on. But finally, he called
about 530 in the morning. He said, I've left.
And he said, you can go get your daughter. And
so we listened. The neighbor then went in to
double check and was able to get my daughter
and bring her back out of there. But, you know,
that's some horrific stuff to go through. And
I mean. This would have been 40, 43 years ago.
And you can still see, you know, that pain, you
know, when I talk about it, even though, you
know, that's passed in my life. And I don't let
that control me and consume me. When you bring
that back up and you think about those details
and you walk back through that again, man, that's,
you know, I almost feel kind of a little sick
to my stomach right now, you know, going back
through. some of that stuff. But again, that
was that perseverance. And what the final straw
for me was when I made the choice to leave, because
you get in this rut and you get so controlled
by that other person. And like I said, the pattern
is so similar to the movies I've watched, to
other stories I've heard people tell, the forgiveness
the next day, the gifts they swear will never
happen again. I mean, he was even on an abuse.
which is the prescription drug that they give
you as an alcoholic that will make you deathly
sick if you drink while you're on it. And he
was court ordered. So he had to go somewhere
and take the Anabuse. And of course, he would
keep it under his tongue. Or if he actually did
have to swallow it, then he knew exactly how
much he could drink before he got to that deathly
sick point. And, you know, ended up in and out
of prison, you know, the rest of his life. The
final straw was he had done that like he was
going to punch my two and a half year old, that
motion of the fist and then itching his nose.
And I went, oh, my gosh. And in a warp sick,
sick way, I felt like I deserved what I got.
That's how low I was. And not that anyone ever
deserves to be beat like that. But when I saw
him do that to my son. That was the reality for
me that I said, wait, what? Oh, heck no. That
little kid did not deserve. And that's when I
was like, if I'm going to, you know, save my
children, I've got to walk away from this. And
that isn't ever circumstances. If anyone happens
to be listening, that's in that environment.
You need to get away from that. It's not going
to get better. It's not going to change without
professional help. No matter what you try to
do. And trust me, I tried so many different things,
you know, to try to get that to be better. They've
got to want to change that. And they have to
be the ones that go get the help. and go through
that but you need to protect yourself do not
allow yourself to stay in those circumstances
where you're being abused i'm not saying that
you have to go file for divorce and be done with
it but you need to separate and you need to get
help and you need to protect yourself and your
children those circumstances that it is it's
it's tragic well i firstly i want to thank you
and i'm sorry to you know pull you into that
that dark place again but i think you just painted
a very gut -wrenching true story that, as you
said, there's probably many, many people listening
that have or are enduring that. And I think that's
what's so sad. I've responded to multiple infant
fatalities that ended up being from abuse, and
it's horrendous and completely preventable. But
as you said, that abuse followed by the apology,
that cycle you do see over and over again. So
I think that's a very important perspective for
people to hear. And obviously, another layer
to the incredible trauma you had for multiple
chapters of your life. So you, by that point,
obviously had removed yourself in that situation.
So tell me about raising the boys as a single
mother and what that dynamic was like for you.
Right. Well, and at that point, I just had the
two children. And I just had Chris and Cheryl.
And because of the violence in the marriage at
the time, they didn't have the laws that they
do today to try to, you know, for domestic violence
and to try to protect. Although I did have a
restraining order at the time. But because of
the abuse, then the day that I filed for divorce,
the divorce was final. There was no waiting period.
They changed that to be able to protect me. So
then two weeks later, I found out I was pregnant
with Mark. so it was like oh my gosh um you know
in the midst of this and trust me I love children
but it was just it was overwhelming and it's
like oh my gosh I got a three and a half year
old or no a two and a half year old and a six
month old you know was we were going through
that and now I'm pregnant with another one I
get no child support you know I I wasn't even
you know working at that time and it was like
okay well I'm going to back to you know, the
bank and go back to work. But how am I going
to feed, you know, three children? And then they
heard two heartbeats. Every time I went in, they
heard two heartbeats on Mark. And so I'm like,
oh, now my family's going to double. But there
was a verse in Psalms that says your children
will be as arrows in your quiver when you're
fighting the enemy. And I just clung to that.
I'm like, okay, I don't know what lays ahead,
but God knows there's going to be some enemies
I'm going to need to fight. Okay, my kids are
a blessing. They are a gift. And so then, you
know, I was determined I was not going to live
on welfare. I was not going to let the, you know,
the state raise me and my children. And there
were times that I worked, you know, three jobs,
96 hours a week to be able to take care of my
kids. And it's tough because I wasn't raising
my kids when I'm working 96 hours a week. You
know, someone else was raising those children.
And in spite of me, fortunately, you know, I
ended up with three great kids, but we went through
a lot. They went through a lot, you know, and
again, because of my stupid strong will going
to prove something to my mom. You know, they
had to go through life then without a father
who was in their their life and a mom who was
hurting. You know, you could have closed the
door and my self -esteem was so low I could have
squeezed in underneath the door. I felt like
I was worthless, that there was no value. And
yet, you know, God pulled me up out of the ash
and redeemed me and let me know I was fearfully
and wonderfully made and that he loved me. But
so it was a struggle, you know, trying to take
care of these kids, trying to go through my grief,
trying to figure out, you know, what my value,
what my worth was. But I just kind of kept plugging
away, plugging away. There were times in there
that it was like, okay, well, you've got to take
care of yourself because if you don't love yourself,
nobody else is going to love you. How are you
going to love your kids if you don't love yourself?
I had a car payment back in 1983. I bought a
Mercury Grand Marquis, which was a $400 car payment
back then. I don't have a car payment now. I'm
debt -free, but I wouldn't want a $400 car payment
now, let alone back then. Again, some stupid
choices that were made trying to... you know,
make myself better, you know, prove I was something
to somebody. I don't know. But so then I was
a single mom for eight and a half years and married
again. I know when my ex did finally left, you
know, he said, you're fat, you're ugly. Nobody's
going to want a woman with three kids. You know,
basically you're unlovable. And that's exactly
the tape that played over and over and over in
my mind. You know, you're unlovable. You're unlovable.
Nobody loves you. And like I said, that was then,
you know, where God led me to Psalms. Again,
another Psalms verse said, you're fearfully and
wonderfully made, you know, and I started to,
you know, grow in my faith and my relationship
with God and understanding and who he was and
what I was to him and the value that I was. And,
you know, that he sent his son, you know, to
die for me. He loved me that much. So it was
a growing process. You know, I had a lot of a
lot of life ahead of me. I had a lot of growth
to do. And so it was just, you know, going through
the day to day. And then finally met someone
who I thought, you know, loved me and was going
to accepted my kids and was going to take care
of that. And we married and. Through that time,
learned he was a horrific liar, that what the
marriage was built on, who he told me he was.
I mean, he would orchestrate other people to
come into his lies and pretend they were his
mother. And, you know, or when we got engaged,
I got a phone call from his supposed mom, who
they were very wealthy. And he'd grown up in
La Jolla. And she was giving me an airplane as
our engagement present. I had just, you know,
been through two and a half years in college.
To be a pilot, fell and injured my back and couldn't
pass my first class medical. And so it's all
excited. But, you know, I mean, just some weird
stuff. You know, you'd watch a movie and it sounds
weird to talk about this all in one setting because
it's just so much. But it's bizarre and it's
crazy. But short story, long story short, I guess,
was we were married for about eight years and
then he ended up taking his own life. And so
then I have been, I think my husband picker doesn't
work too well. So for 27 years, I have been a
widow and I'm good with that. But, you know,
it's again, it's those tragedies in life. We
do a lot through our foundation for our veterans
who are struggling with suicide. And when I speak
with them, you know, because they know the background
of Mark and the sacrifice he made and the loss
and what we're doing, you know, to honor him.
through that there's that respect piece there
but when they're deep and when we're in those
conversations about the suicide and and i'm trying
to get them to open up and pull more out of them
and help them you know lots of times they'll
say you have no idea what i'm going through you
know and i'll say well actually you know 27 years
ago my husband took his life and the walls just
come tumbling down that they're trying to build
up and they will just open up them pour out their
hearts to me because they do know that I understand
the struggles that they're dealing with. And
again, God used that, not that he caused that
in my life, but he used those circumstances then
to help me in the mission that was ahead for
me to be able to help those veterans. You know,
as I deal with, you know, obviously as a mom,
I relate well to other moms who've lost, you
know, a son in combat. Being a spouse. Now, I've
lost a spouse in death. I understand. So I can
comfort and encourage them as well. And again,
I totally get it. When people curl up in a ball
and feel sorry for themselves for whatever, whether
it's grief, whether it's health issues, whether
it's marriage, financial, when they curl up in
a ball and feel sorry because that pain is real.
You don't ignore that pain. Those struggles are
real. But to be able to encourage them and say,
yeah, I've been there. I've walked through that.
And you can still make a choice to go above that,
to rise above it in spite of what's been handed
to you. Is it exciting? Are you happy that that
happened? No, not at all. But for me, it's God's
strength that's given me that power and that
mindset. To be able to every day wake up and
say, thank you, God, that you've given me the
gift for another day. And at night, you know,
I go to bed saying, thank you, God, that you
got me through another day. And I never know
what lays in store for that day that he has gifted
me. You know, I have three. As I said, three
great kids. I have 11 grandchildren that I've
been blessed with. We just found out I'm going
to be a great grandma. I'm kind of like, ooh,
okay, my grandkids call me grandma. My mind great
grandma's got to be an old woman with a gray
bun on the top of her head and her walker just
barely creeping along saying, hey, so sunny,
what you say? And so we may need a code name
on now. Super grandma or something. Yeah, I'm
excited that I've lived enough years. And because
I was 20, I was young when I had my first one.
So there is that time then to be able to have
all those blessings and have all those joys and
gifts and to be able to encourage others, to
be able to have a mission. You know, have a real
purpose. And I think that's so many of the things
that we go through in life. When I went through,
you know, my first divorce, there was no purpose.
I didn't know what I wanted to be or where I
was going or I didn't have a mission. My only
day to day was I have three little kids that
are counting on me. And I have to wake up every
day and make sure that they're taken care of.
Was I a perfect mom? Oh, heck no. Ask my children.
They'll tell you otherwise. But I did the best
that I could with where I was at in life, with
the struggles that I had been through in life,
and with what I knew at that time. I wish, you
know, Jocko and Leif and their extreme ownership,
you know, that they teach those principles. I
wish I had that back then. I wish I had known
that. The way that I learned it and the lessons
in life ingrained that so deeply in me, that's
not going away. You know, sometimes you read
a book and you're like, oh, these are awesome
ideas and you start to implement them. Well,
they don't just all happen overnight. It's a
progression of practicing that over and over
and applying that over and over and over in your
life. And, you know, in my life, it was that
living life. That were those over and over and
over. Okay, try this again. Okay, here's another
circumstance. Okay, try this again. That built
those. And do I have it all figured out? Do I
have them all learned? Oh, heck no. You know,
it's still a progress of learning day to day
in relationships. And I have learned so much
from Jocko and from Leif. And from the principles
that they do teach and the way they do that,
those are my boys. That was Mark's final gift
to me was his teammates. And that's my family.
But I have and continue to, you know, as we go
to muster and as our foundation, America's Mighty
Warriors and set up a booth and set up a table.
But I get to attend those. I do their, you know,
EF online, which is now Extreme Ownership Academy
that they're changing over to. You know, I'm
on those calls every Monday, Wednesday, Friday
as often as I can be if there's not a conflict
in the schedule. And I continue to practice those
things I've learned. Communication is probably
for me right now the biggest lesson that I've
learned, you know, and how to be able to communicate
well to people. You know, not just bark orders
or, you know, respond out of emotion. So much
earlier in my life, you know, I responded. from
that emotion instead of detaching from my emotion.
You don't ignore your emotion. Emotion is good.
It's important. It's healthy for you. God gave
you the different emotions that we have. That's
who we're made up as humans, but you don't respond.
You take a, you know, take a breath, take a step
back and not in anger, you know, you think about,
or you think, am I listening? Am I hearing what
they're saying? Or did I all of a sudden develop
what I thought they were saying? And then I respond
to that. You know, that's probably my biggest
learning curve right now where I've learned so
much about, you know, communication and how we
communicate to people. Well, I think a common
denominator that I've had over and over again
on here is I was taken aback how many people
have really challenging early lives, you know,
and it could be. Growing up around alcoholism,
it could have been recipient of domestic abuse,
sexual abuse. I had one that was a boy soldier
in Sierra Leone whose parents were murdered and
he was forced to kill. Either that or be executed.
We see these films that are written, these fictional
stories, but the true stories are so much more
harrowing, I think. But out of that becomes,
like you said, that growth, that post -traumatic
growth, the self -forgiveness. the the courageous
people with stories like that when they then
tell their story it's incredible how that opens
the doors to the conversation it's kind of that
you know me too even though that that hashtag
got a you know a bad rap in a way but it's true
it's like oh you know i i downplayed my trauma
i was i wasn't at 9 11 therefore i've got no
reason to feel the way i feel and that's absolute
crap so you know i think i agree with you completely
even though those times must have been horrific
in that moment the ability for you to say i do
know how you feel this is what happened to me
i've seen over and over again just from from
hearing from the guests that have come on and
told their story people come out the woodwork
oh you know i've been wanting to talk to someone
this is how i'm feeling so there's so much value
in obviously processing that trauma but then
being able to talk about it to open the doors
for others yeah You know, that's one thing that
I always say that God doesn't waste pain. You
know, you go through that pain in your life.
You go through those tragedies and trials in
your life. And if we allow him, then he will
use those, you know, not only to point others
to him, but to help other people in the midst
of their struggles. You know, there's a verse
that says we comfort others and we encourage
others in the way that we've been comforted.
So I think that's important, you know, and not
that everybody's called to do that. I'm not saying
everybody has to do that. But when we can use
our past circumstances, and again, not for sympathy,
I don't want anybody's sympathy, but just to
be able to say, here's what I went through. Here's
the hope that you can have too, that you can
overcome this tragedy. You can overcome this
trial, these circumstances. That doesn't have
to define who you are. you still have that choice,
that ability to say, I am still in control of
the choices I make, of the way I think, of my
actions. You still have control of that. You
may not have control over anybody else, but you
can encourage them. You can, you know, be there
and walk alongside and support them and hopefully
help them to be able to, you know, rise above
as well. Absolutely. Well, actually, one of the
things that struck me the most in the muster
was Jocko and Leif were talking about, again,
controlling what you can control. And even in
a leadership sense, and I've been in places where
the leadership was horrific, absolutely horrific.
And when I look back now, they were like, well,
you can control your reaction to that. You can
still shape somewhat, but you can't control them.
at all. And that was a bitter pill to swallow,
because when I look back, I'm like, okay, well,
here's some areas I could have done that better.
I don't think it would have changed the outcome,
but maybe it would have changed my stress levels,
if nothing else. But yeah, I think it's very,
very empowering to realize that, yeah, things
externally will happen to you, and some are in
your control, some are not. But just understanding
that it is what it is, and how you react now
is the only thing that truly is in your power.
Yeah. And I think that's one of the things, too,
that you can still have joy. It doesn't have
to be. I think of a cat, you know, there used
to be, I don't know, a clothesline. That really
dates it because most people don't have clotheslines.
But the wire that the cat has his chin just above
it, you know, the claws are kind of on there.
And it's like, you know, I survived. I'm a survivor.
You know, and you don't have to go through life
just. surviving just barely with your head up,
barely alive. And that's why I tell people you
can thrive in the midst of your tragedies, in
the midst of that, you can still have joy. Is
it happiness? Because, you know, I think everybody's
searching for happiness. They want to be happy
in life. And that's based on your circumstances.
So, you know, if things are great and your marriage
is great and your finance is great and your health
is great, you're happy. Well, that's not what
I'm talking about here. I'm talking about joy.
I'm talking about the inward feeling that you
have in your heart, no matter what's going on,
that you still have that joy. It's not happiness.
But, you know, that in the midst of losing, you
know, a husband to suicide, being, you know,
almost killed by the first husband, losing my
son, I can still choose to laugh. and be joyful
and have those, you know, that's an attitude
that comes from within me. That's not based on
my outward circumstances and what's happening
around me. And that we do have control on. Absolutely.
Well, speaking of your son, so I guess we should
probably walk through, you know, Mark's life
and his siblings as well. So from what I understand,
I listened to Mike Ritland's interview that you
were on, mentioned about you exposing them to
So tell me kind of the timeline of being young
kids and when they started to show interest in
actually serving. And I don't know that there
were any specific times. I mean, they were always,
you know, boy boys, you know, digging the dirt,
you know, taking a piece of wood and making a
gun. And, you know, I always tell people this
garbage in America that, you know, we can't have.
You know, you have to push your children or not
push your children to whatever gender. They come
wired as warriors and you can't unmake them.
If God intended for them to be a warrior, you
can do whatever you want. You can take, you know,
not give them Nerf guns or guns or they're going
to take their toast and bite it into be a gun.
You know, that doesn't work. But you can't make
them a warrior if they didn't come that way either.
You can try all you want. And it's something
that's internal. that comes that way. And so
you, you want to, you know, support that. You
want to build that, you know, encourage that
character, I guess. I mean, I have Nerf gun wars
with my grandkids all the time. You know, we,
we enjoy life. We have fun. Even my, you know,
granddaughter who has four brothers, you know,
four older brothers, very much. She's a little
girl's girl, but man, she's a tough little cookie.
We have a video of her. She, she will be four
next week, but. They have a Nissan 12 passenger
van and she literally has one of the big exercise
ropes that they hooked up to the van and she
is pulling the van. Oh my goodness. I mean, it's
in neutral, but she is pulling that van. I'm
like, what the heck? And her mom said, well,
it's a little bit of an incline. If you go down
the street, it doesn't feel like it's much of
an incline. It's not like it was on a hill and
she's rolling and they got a video before the
van runs over her. But she is a tough little
cookie. And then I got a little sidetracked there
on what we were talking about. What was your
question just for that? No, it's okay. So basically
kind of walk me through, because I know several
of the boys ended up in the military, kind of
when they did show that interest and kind of
walk me through even further into their enlistment.
Sure. And, you know, that's one of the things,
you know, Mark says it was all the war movies
I made him watch. That's why they went in the
military. I'm like, yeah, no, you came out of
that way. It wasn't those. But I've always been
when I read, I read to learn something to better
myself, you know, history, background. So I'm
kind of the same way with movies. I want to watch
movies that are, you know, historical movies,
not that they're always documentaries, but. I've
just been always really drawn to those that show,
you know, the men and women in the military,
what they've done to defend us and the freedoms
that we enjoy every day. I don't take that for
granted that there was a price that was paid
for me to every morning, wake up and enjoy that.
I can worship the way I want. I can say, you
know, those things, you know, obviously I can't
within reason tell people that the building's
burning down when it's not and cause, you know,
panic or riot or. But I have amazing freedoms
here in America. And there is a deer price that's
paid. Through the years, obviously, I've learned
how deep and personal that deer price is. But
I've always known that. So I've been drawn to
those kind of movies. That was just, you know,
a lot of what we watched growing up. And I think
every young man in their, you know, developing
ages as a young teen watches a movie. you know
especially i remember mark watching you know
the navy seals movie and uh you know looking
back now laughing going well that's not even
near what what it's about but they watch the
movie and they get the beautiful women and they
get to blow things up and you know they're the
heroes you know who would not as a young man
want want to be a navy seal after you watch a
movie like that but um i don't think for mark
um It was until later in life where he really
developed that. My oldest son, Christopher, went
in the Marines in August of 2000. My son -in
-law, Christopher, yes, they're both Christophers,
gets a little confusing, but went in the Army
in October of 2000. So then in May of 2001, Mark
went in the Navy with the contract to go to Bud's.
Doesn't guarantee that you'll be a SEAL, but...
says you're good enough, physically fit and intelligent
enough that you could be a candidate and you're
going to go once you do your basic training.
I think for Mark, you know, he saw the camaraderie.
He saw his brother and brother -in -law, you
know, go through the military and the physical.
Mark was always very, you know, physically fit,
was a soccer player. But I think there was a
lot of competitiveness and it was like, hey,
watch this. You're in the Marines, you're in
the Army. Well, I'm going to go be a Navy SEAL.
And he had actually blew out his knee, came home
his freshman year and said, Mom, I'm going to
be a professional soccer player. And I always
taught my kids, you know, even, you know, when
I was struggling in the beginning years of raising
them as a single mom that, you know, you put
your mind to it, you can do whatever you want
to do. When they would come home and say, I can't
do this, I would say, no, you mean you won't
do this. And so they would hear those things
in that attitude. And when he came home and told
me he was going to be a professional soccer player
as a freshman, and because we didn't have a lot
of money, they didn't play any youth sports.
My grandkids are involved in, you know, youth
sports and are on club teams. And oh, my gosh,
it's a whole different world than what we lived
in. And, you know, I remember saying, Mark, you've
never played soccer in your life. Kind of like,
what the heck do you think it's done? But trying
to, you know, still, if you put your mind to
it, you know, thing balancing out there. And
he said, no, mom, I really want to do this. I'm
like, OK. You know, and so he started, you know,
I was homeschooling them and he went to the high
school because he could play sports with the
high school. And he was the most improved player.
His freshman year later is actually at his funeral.
His soccer coach spoke and he said he was probably
the worst soccer player he had ever seen. And
so I guess you got a long ways to get most improved
player when you're the worst soccer player. But
he ended up being the youngest soccer coach at
the high school. He was trying out for the Colorado
Rapids, which is the professional soccer team.
in Colorado and blew out his knee the night before
tryouts. So had to come home, get surgery. He
had torn his ACL. They removed half of his meniscus.
And it was during that time they really started
doing a lot of reading of, you know, autobiographies
of Navy SEALs. And I noticed he started going
to the pool more often than swimming. They hadn't
had swim lessons growing up. And I noticed he'd
have a workout routine, you know, he'd been working
out at the gym regularly. That was a habit of
his that he did have. And, you know, he started
refining that more and I noticed, you know, more
numbers in the pull -ups and the sit -ups and
the, you know, burpees and whatever else he had
on there. But, and that's when he made the conscious
choice why he was healing. He did go back to
the master's college for one more semester, wanted
to play a little more soccer. And that's then.
When he went to the recruiters in May and then
went to try out to become a Navy SEAL. The first
time that he went through, he got pneumonia and
pulmonary edema during Hell Week. And it was
just a couple hours before the cutoff point where
he would have been rolled forward and would have
still been in class 239 with the rest of his
class he started with. But he wasn't quite to
that point. So and he went in when they did the
medical exam on him and told him what he had.
He's like, no, I could do this. I'm good. I'm
good. And they said, no, we had a guy die two
classes ago with what you've got. We've got to
pull you. We don't have a choice. And so then
he got rolled into class 240, rang the bell on
Hell Week on Monday night, was sent to the fleet,
the boat that he was sent to, because you still
got to finish your contract, you know, even though
you. you know, drop out of the seals. And his
boat was in dry dock. He was, it was the USS
enterprise. No way. It was the Eisenhower. I
always get these confused. I think it was USS
Eisenhower, which was in dry dock. So he was
driving a shuttle bus for the army. I have a
picture of him with his head on the steering
wheel. Oh my gosh. I mean, what a contrast go
from trying out to be a Navy SEAL. And now you're
driving a shuttle bus. You know, he was hating
life. And I remember the phone call when he said,
Mom, I screwed up. And, you know, we talked about,
you know, why he made that decision. And he really
felt like it was the wrong decision that he made.
And I said, you know, have you prayed about this?
Are you sure this is where God wants you? And
he goes, yep, I'm positive. That's where I'm
supposed to be. I said, well, you need to get
your butt back there. Then you need to do whatever
it takes. You need to jump through whatever hoops
you need to. But you need to get back there.
And it took him about a year. He had to go through,
I mean, they put him through, he had to write
essays, he had to do extra PT, he had to meet
with officers. And for a year, he had to go through
that process. And rightfully so. You know, if
you've been through once and quit, how do they,
you know, know that you won't just do that again.
But I went back in class 251 and was in running
for honor man in the platoon. Did not get honor
man. I remember that phone call and him saying.
Oh, mom, I didn't get on her, man. I'm like,
Mark, you got your trident. I'm competitive.
So I get it that, you know, but, um, you know,
and just an amazing story of perseverance there,
you know, to go through buds three different
times, um, you know, and looking back, you know,
and I'm sure any of the teen guys would tell
you, you know, they make it sound like in the
movies you watch, you know, buds is the worst
part, the, you know, Like I said, they don't
call it Hell Week for no reason, but, you know,
that they went through. But that was the easy
part, you know, looking back when you're deployed
into combat and what they endure and what they
go through. Man, that's intense. That's crazy.
But very proud of my son, my son -in -law and
Mark, you know, that all served in the military
and defended me and my freedoms. Very proud of
our military and my kids. Well, I'm sure. And
the thing, what really kind of stands out on
Mark's story is, you know, I've had a lot of
seals on here now. I've been very lucky to, I
think, I think the special operations community
has so much value and so many tangents with the
first responder community. So we have a lot to
learn from each other. But understanding the
physical, mental grit to get through buds once,
you know, or maybe get rolled back and have to
finish a portion. how hard that is and the attrition
rate. But to be rolled back and then have to
vie for a place again, that speaks volumes on
his physical and mental fortitude. So have you
ever kind of analyzed that and looked back what
allowed him to succeed when so many other people
had failed? I really think it was a lot of the
tragedies and trials that he grew up through.
You know, seeing that, like I said, not the perfect
mom by any means, but that we weren't going to
quit, that we did always continue to pick ourselves
back up no matter what was thrown at us, no matter
what was given. And one step at a time, we just
went forward one step at a time, one step at
a time. I know that his faith was a big part
of that. Mark was going to the master's college
to be a pastor before he went into the seals.
So I know knowing the mindset and the purpose
that this was the mission that God had given
him to complete, you know, and that, you know,
God was going to equip him and give him the strength
for that. I know that Mark had no idea the end
of the story, you know, how it would end here
on earth for him. You know, Mark was redeployed
to heaven, so it hasn't ended for him and he
will have, you know, a lifetime up there. But
to see the impact that Mark is still making around
the world in such a crazy way. Today, that would
not have happened if Mark was still here. Selfishly,
would I rather have him here? Yeah, in a heartbeat,
you know. But I do know where he is. I will see
him again one day. And God made Mark's mission
clear to him and he's made my mission clear to
me, you know, and what I'm supposed to be doing.
You know, one of the things I think back of Mark
was his humor. Oh, my gosh, he won class clown
two years in a row. And I was like, oh, great.
And this is going to get you to college. How?
Really? But I do see that that was another one
of the tools that, you know, that's how God equipped
Mark. And the guys will tell you, you know, he
was always. You know, would bring the humor and
just when they needed something lighthearted
for a minute. Obviously, he would be focused
on the mission. He wasn't a class clown when,
you know, they had an intense mission and needed
to stay on target. And, you know, he carried
the big gun. But and he just was a warm, loving.
He would stand up for the underdog anytime. He
didn't care who said what or if anybody made
fun of him. And I remember, like I said, I homeschooled
them and I would drop him off, you know, at the
high school for a soccer game and the bus would
be loading up and, you know, there'd be guys
on the bus and he'd come around to the car and
give me a big kiss and a hug. You know, he didn't
care who saw him or what, you know, was going
on. And somebody was being picked on, man. He'd
be there to stand up for them. And just, yeah,
amazing young man. I was blessed to be his mom
for 28 years. And he lived more in that 28 years
than. Most people that live, you know, 90 years.
And, you know, I do. I count my blessings that
God picked me to be his mom. He could have picked
anybody else. And I had the privilege of being
his mom also. Yeah, well, you seem very proud
to this day. Yes, very much so. Well, he ended
up obviously working with some incredible humans.
So kind of walk me through. what you got through
letters, conversations, and that kind of thing,
his experience getting to SEAL Team 3 and then
ultimately Ramadi. Yeah, and again, your unique
circumstances for Mark when he joined Charlie
Platoon. He was on SEAL Team 3. He was on, I
believe he was on Echo, was who he was on originally.
They had... circumstances with one of the guys
that was on charlie platoon that they had to
let go and um last minute they typically do a
workup so once they're assigned to a team they've
got 18 months of workup that they work together
with their team in and out day and night and
they build a unique tight bond well because they
had to let this person go then last minute they
went and said okay It's short notice before we
deploy. We need the best guy that you've got
out there to come acclimate into our platoon.
And it was Mark. And so he didn't get the privilege
of going through all the different workups. He
came right in at the end. And he was the new
guy. And so the new guy, man, you get given all
kinds of crap. You've got to work to be part
of this platoon. You know, they they took bets,
I guess, behind the scenes as to how long, you
know, before Mark could be acclimated in. And
but anyway, they said it wasn't long with his
humor, with his big heart that they couldn't,
you know, as hard as they pushed on Mark. It
didn't bother him. It didn't stop him. He didn't
get frustrated. He didn't get angry at him. And
he said it was in no time that he was one of
the Charlotte boys and was very connected with
them. But as you said, an amazing group of young
men just on Charlie's platoon itself, which basically
is 16 guys. We had Chris Kyle. We had Leif, who
was their lieutenant. We have Johnny Kim, who's
now an astronaut. We had amazing other guys,
and a lot of them are still deployed, so I can't
mention their name. Jocko was the commander for
Task Unit Bruiser. Task Unit Bruiser, not...
SEAL Team 3, but basically Task Unit Bruiser,
makes SEAL Team 3 the most highly decorated special
forces unit ever in Iraq. Amazing group of men.
And as I said, you know, I had not met any of
the guys before Mark died. But that's my family
now. And I remember Mark trying to explain the
brotherhood. I'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I
get it. You're close to these guys. You've trained
hard with them. You've gone into combat with
them. Yeah, I get it. You're very close to them.
But it's as close as your brother you grew up
with for 28 years. And you say, yeah, mom, that
close. And I'm like, well, let me remind you,
I did not birth them. So they can't be your brothers.
And we kind of left it there. And then the week
that Mark died, I had five of his buddies, of
course, his teammates, his Charlie brothers.
We're still deployed. But his swim buddy and
some of the other team guys that were close to
him, I had in my home. And I saw, oh, my gosh,
they love Mark as much as we do. And they're
hurting just as much as we are. And that's when,
for me, the brotherhood thing came alive. And
I'm like, oh, my gosh, I get it. And I was very
concerned for the Charlie boys that were still
in the combat zone. I was trying to process through
my grief and I couldn't get up and make a decision
to save my life. And that's just part of the
grieving process. But I was like, oh, my gosh,
how are his teammates who are in the combat zone
who are grieving and are probably having these
same grief issues? How are they going to go out
and continue their mission without jeopardizing
more lives? My heart right away went to them.
I got phone calls that night after they knew
that we'd been notified from Iraq and started
talking to them. Jocko and Leif will both tell
you, they were trying to prepare themselves for
those phone calls. How are we going to support
Mark's mom? What are we going to do to continue
to encourage her from being over in Iraq, this
mom who's just lost her son? They said, I called
and I was the one that was... How are you? What
do you need? What can I do to support you? I'm
praying for you. You know, be safe. And they
did what they do well. You know, they compartmentalize
that grief and pushed it aside for the safety
of themselves and for the mission. And they continued
their mission strong even after Mark left and
continued to take it to the enemy, you know,
for Mark. But and then it was when they came
home. that they started their grieving process.
But I had met with President Bush in October
after Mark died. And as we were talking, I'd
taken the team picture of Charlie Platoon. I
was telling him about all his teammates because
I'd gotten to know them already. We were emailing
back and forth. We had phone calls regular. I
was like, when's your birthday? Are you married?
Do you have any kids? Where do your parents live?
And so we did. We you know, those relationships
started early on. And so I was telling him about
all the different guys. And I said something
about their commander was Jocko. And of course,
I didn't know Jocko as well. You know, early
on, it was more of the Charlie boys that I knew
really well. But I remember President Bush said,
you know, oh, yes, I've heard of Jocko. You know,
so even back then, you know, he had a reputation
for being a great leader. But after I left. I
thought, oh, I should have asked the president
to sign a platoon picture to each one of the
guys. So I reached out to my contact there to
see if I could still make that happen. They said,
yes, of course, they'd be honored to. Give us
a list of the names on each one. So I have the
Charlie platoon pictures personalized to each
one of the guys. And I told them I was coming
over to bring them a surprise. And that was in
January. And to my surprise, they put me up in
the presidential suite. at the Grand Hyatt downtown
San Diego. So I still think that how odd is that
that I'm bringing certificates from the president
that they have no idea what I'm bringing. And
they put me up in the presidential suite. So
that night, we were all up there in the suite.
And I just shared with them that Mark was my
kid who loved to give gifts. Literally, he would
hunt for hours. to find that perfect gift. Most
men, if it's a birthday or something like, okay,
let's go bag it, tag it, got the gift. Good check
done. But he really wanted it to be something
very special, very meaningful. And I remember
one Christmas he came home and he'd had the present
and it was all, he'd had it wrapped in the store.
It's all wrapped up. He's like, Oh mom, this
is so cool. I can't wait for you to see it. And
I said, well, put it on the Christmas tree, Mark,
because you don't put any there. I won't have
anything to open Christmas morning. And he said,
OK, no, no, mom, you got to see this. You got
to see this. I'm like, don't put it on the tree.
Well, all of a sudden he's ripped it open. And
it was a set of gold flatware that matched my
china and golden color, not gold, solid gold.
But he was so excited that for himself, he couldn't
wait. And I always tell people that was. Mark's
teammates were his final gift to me. And he intended
for me to open it up and get to know them right
away. You know, not put it aside, not wait for
them to come home. And I was always telling them,
you guys are Mark's final gift to me. And they
hear that often for me, that that really is.
And man, the priceless value. That those men
are and their families to me is something you
really can't explain. You know, the closeness
that's there, the bond that's been developed.
And it is a true blessing to have those men in
my life and their families as well. Now, one
thing I ask people who have actually been deployed,
I don't know if you were able to get these kind
of perspectives from Mark, but I think it's very
important for the civilians of the world to understand
what we're asking our men and women to do, or
often boys and girls, and then hear their stories,
hear what they saw. And so I kind of break it
into two parts. Firstly, did he ever relay the
horrors that he saw once he got over there? regardless
of kind of politics prior that really justified
them removing some horrible people from, you
know, the place that they were at, obviously
Ramadi in this case. Yeah. And fortunately we
have that in a written letter. That was Mark's
last letter home desk. He doesn't go into great
detail because, and he even mentions that letter
because the people involved in the, you know,
security, the object for the, for the mission,
but I really looked forward. To when he did come
home to go into more detail about the missions
and what happened, you know, specifically that
he could talk about. I have heard a lot of those
stories, you know, from his teammates. But he
talks about that in detail in that letter, you
know, the things that he saw over there and the
places. And he said, we will get Iraq to stand
on its own two feet. It will take longer than
most expect. But he does say it's the right thing
to do for us as Americans. And Mark very much
believed in the mission of what he was doing
over there. Mark is one of the main characters
portrayed in the movie American Sniper. And in
that movie, I mean, they threw him under the
bus the way they portrayed him. They make it
sound like he doesn't believe in the mission.
One point he asked Chris, Chris, I don't even
know, or makes the statement, I don't even know
if I believe in the mission over here. And that
could not have been further from the truth. You
know, so it breaks my heart that he was portrayed
that way. I still think it's a great movie in
that, you know, and obviously it's Chris's story
that Bradley Cooper did an amazing job, you know,
portraying Chris. It is a movie. It is not a
documentary. I think it gives a great glimpse
into the decisions our troops have to make over
there, what they endure, a glimpse into that.
I think it does a great job showing some of the
issues the family deals with back home and most
of all, the importance to support them when they
get back home. I had been over to Iraq twice.
I've been in the combat zone. I went on a patrol
with the first and the fourth cab three different
times, was not being fired on. Nothing was happening
around me. Not that it couldn't have been, you
know, something could have happened, but nothing
was happening when I was out there. I know we
did go to one of the sheikh's house and the colonel
went inside. We waited out in the vehicle, but
I, ooh, the back of my neck, the spidey senses
and the hair went up on the back of my neck and
something. Something potentially was going on
around us. Nothing did happen. So I got a glimpse,
a glimpse into the lay of the land, what it's
like over there, the smells, the sounds, the
different things they see, their living conditions.
I got a glimpse into that. And what a privilege
that I had the opportunity to be able to do that.
much greater understanding as I work with the
troops as well, was able to go over there and
love on the troops on behalf of the majority
of, you know, civilians that can't get over there
and the mom spouses and be able to do that, encourage
them. But it's amazing what we ask our men and
women to do in the military, what we train them
to do, the things they endure and that they see
over there. And then. you know as an american
sniper the mission of supporting them when they
come back home and take care of them but um i
guess my conversations with mark into detail
will have to wait till i get to heaven well conversely
the other side of the coin as well is the the
humanity they see because again you know if you're
not really Being quiet and listening to a lot
of the people that are over there, there's almost
this illusion that, oh, we're at war with Iraq.
We're at war with Afghanistan. We're not. We're
trying to hunt some horrible, horrible people
that are living in this country that are terrorizing
their own people. So did he ever talk about elements
of compassion, kindness, humanity that he saw
of the regular Iraqi people amongst this horrendous
war zone they were in? He did. Again, I would
encourage your listeners to go to our website
at americasmightywarriors .org and read that
letter because there is so much wisdom in that.
He covers, as I said before, the things that
he saw and did over there, the importance of
the random acts of kindness. There's so much
in there. He says, a lot of things I saw and
heard, I'll never talk about. He said, I went
into a hospital. I wouldn't even be able to stand
the smell, let alone get medication and help
from. He said, we are helping the Iraqi people.
I saw that firsthand when I was there, how much
the Iraqis were grateful that we were there and
the support. That's not what we saw on the mainstream
media. And as you said, we're not at war with
Iraq. It's the global war on terror. It's the
terrorists. If the terrorists would all stay
in one place, we could. Take care of them there.
Or if we had rules of engagement at different
times, it allowed us to do what we needed to
do. We'd long been done and gone over there,
but we won't get involved in the politics of
that. But it's just, it's phenomenal. The wisdom
in that letter from Mark. And then he ends that
letter with, to my family and friends, do me
a favor. Pass on the kindness, the love, the
precious gift of human life. We got one of the
toughest warriors in America, Silver Star recipient,
you know, who then is doing things, you know,
that you that I wouldn't want to do. You guys
that have served to do some terrible stuff and
have to do that to defend us. But most of us
wouldn't do that. And yet one of the most compassionate,
caring men you will ever know. You know, what
a contrast. And I see that in so many, you know,
that. The team guys I know, I see that in Jocko's
life. I see that in Leif's life. You know, I
see that in so many of Mark's teammates, some
of the toughest warriors we have in America and
some of the most kind, caring, compassionate.
And, you know, what a contrast. God did a great
job when he put that all together in these guys.
Yeah, well, I think that's such an important
perspective to hear as well, because I talk about
this with some of the mental health issues, especially
when people struggle transitioning out. Because
we are a yin and yang, you know, and I think
that the hard part is obviously, you know, carrying
a weapon, going into a fire, running towards
gunfire as a police officer. That's when you're
a flow state and you need to be that tough side,
that warrior. But the reason we enter these professions
was compassion. And I'm sure if you really broke
down, you know, Mark's background, he wanted
to be protected. He saw what happened to his
mother in her timeline and wanted to make sure
the buck stopped there. So that's that soft part.
And so when I think some of us kind of allow
ourselves to be pulled into the illusion that
we're all the hard, that there is no soft. And,
you know, so I think it's so important as a warrior
to also be that compassionate person and not
let yourself start to get that compassion fatigue
that we see in our profession, certainly just
through exhaustion and burnout. But yeah, I mean,
that's exactly to me what a man is. Yes, at times
you need to be. hard you need to be tough but
other times you need to be compassionate and
it's beautiful that mark was able to portray
that in his last letter to you yeah yeah what
a gift what a gift that was and that came by
email um it probably there were maybe 12 13 people
on that email thread close you know family and
friends and had no idea no idea when he sent
that letter out but literally millions and millions
of lives and i don't exaggerate that number would
be changed by that letter. Absolutely. Well,
talking about that then. So August 2nd was another
pivotal chapter in your already turbulent life.
It's the worst case scenario, whether it's in
the military, whether it's in the first responder
community, the battalion chief vehicle rolling
up. A good friend of mine was just in Miami at
the collapse and had to do the death notifications
of every single person who was identified as
deceased in that building. So tell me about that
day and again, that grieving process once again
that you had to endure. Yeah. So I knew when
Mark, he visited me before he deployed and his
birthday's in March. That's, you know, about
the time frame they were deploying. I'd taken
him down the street here to Rangers, Royals,
spring training baseball game. After the seventh
inning, they put up on the marker board, happy
28th birthday, Mark. Have a safe deployment.
Love, Mom. And when he was leaving after he'd
been here, I knew, I knew I didn't feel good
about it. And I'm not a worrier. I'm not a fretter.
That is not my personality. That is just not
who I am. But as he pulled away, drove away in
the car, I looked at my son, Chris, and I said,
man, I don't feel good about this. And he said,
neither do I, Mom. And he's a lot like me, not
a worrier. That's not his personality. And I
remember sharing my Bible study with some of
my friends there. Just please be praying. You
know, this just didn't feel right. And they're
like, no, no, no, he'll be fine. You're just
a mom whose son's deployed. You know, this is
natural, you know. I went about life. It's not
like every day that a black car turned in a corner
of my house. I would look and go, oh, my gosh,
is today the day? Is this it? Is it time now?
You know, I didn't. You know, I still continue
to live life and prayed more for Mark probably
than I prayed for anything else in my life. Does
that mean God didn't answer my prayers? No. God
heard my prayers. There was just a different
end to the story there. They, Mark had died earlier
in the day and they were trying to locate me
up in Oregon where I lived. I had moved down
here just previously during his deployment or
during his, while he was in the military, he
hadn't deployed yet. And I know he changed the
paperwork. I remember getting the phone calls
and mom, what's that new address and getting
all the pertinent information for the paperwork.
But if they would have found me that morning
at the same. time that, you know, shortly after
Mark had died, I would have been alone by myself.
And anyway, they've been looking for me for about
eight hours up at my property in Oregon that
I still did own, but didn't live there. And finally,
they've gone to one of the neighbor's house and
said, well, she doesn't live here anymore. She
lives down in Arizona. At this point, they're
afraid that I'm going to hear on the nightly
news, you know, about Mark. So typically in the
SEAL community, we have a SEAL CACO officer that
alerts us along with usually someone from that
team or a close teammate that goes. But because
of the concern for the timeline, I'm close to
Luke Air Force Base and there's a small Navy
detachment there. So they just sent the CACO
officer from there. They got to my house and
I was not home. And they waited for a while there
and finally knocked on my neighbor's door and
said, do you know where Debbie is? And her husband
had served in the military. So when she saw them
in uniform, she knew something wasn't right.
And she said, well, I don't have Debbie's cell
phone, but I know her son works down the street
at Lowe's. So they reached out to Chris there
at Lowe's. Of course, wouldn't tell him he served
in the Marines. He knew, you know, when you see
them. If they're wounded, you'll get a phone
call and they'll get you to them. They don't
come to you. And so he called me. I was actually
at my Bible study that night. We were celebrating
my birthday, which had been the week before,
but we had not gathered. So after our meeting,
we were celebrating having cake and ice cream.
And my girlfriend had given me one of the willow
tree angels. And those are the wooden angels
with the wire wings that are a collector item.
And each one has a different character quality.
And the one that she gave me was courage. And
she said, you just remind, you're such a woman
of courage with all that you've been through
in your life. And little did we know how much
more courage was going to be required. And when
my phone rang, and usually I always turn my phone
on silent when we're there. And I hadn't that
night for obviously there was a reason it was
not supposed to be on silent. And Chris called
and there was nothing in his voice to alert me.
There was not. He wasn't talking too fast. He
wasn't crying. He wasn't loud. Nothing. Just
the normal voice. And he's like, hey, mom, where
are you? I'm like, well, Wednesday night. I'm
a small group. Why? What's up? And he goes, how
long will it take you to get home? And I thought,
well, that's an odd question. I said. I don't
know. And of course, I'm starting to know something's
not right at this point. I said, I don't know,
five minutes, seven minutes. Why? What's up?
And he said, you just need to come home. And
as I said before, I knew when Mark left. It wasn't
going to be good. And I grabbed my purse and
I told my friends, please be praying something's
not right. And I got in my car and there was
a song from my past that said, I put my hope
in you, O Lord. Trusting you, I will not be shaken.
knowing that you will see me through, I put my
hope in you. And I just sang that over and over
and over. And I got to the main intersection
by my house, and there was probably three or
four fire trucks and several ambulances and several
police cars. And I remember thinking as I pulled
up on that intersection, my house blew up. That's
all that's wrong. My house blew up. And trust
me, I would rather have lost all of my earthly
possessions and still have Mark. And to this
day, I can't tell you how I got through that
intersection, but somehow I found myself back
in my neighborhood. And there were no more emergency
vehicles. And I came back to knowing what was
going to face me when I got home. And when I
turned the corner to my street, I expected to
see a black car parked out front. And there was
no black car parked out front. They parked way
down the street. It wasn't even a black car.
I guess I've watched too many stinking movies.
my son Christopher was on the sidewalk just pacing
back and forth and I parked facing the wrong
direction so when I stepped out of the car I'd
be right there on the sidewalk and I got out
and he said mom the navy's here and I remember
falling on his shoulder and just crying and saying
no no and um we walked inside together and the
Keiko officer and uh Chaplain, which I didn't
even know was a chaplain until years later. But
they were standing inside and they said, we can
tell by being in your home that you're a woman
of faith. And you're going to need to rely on
that faith for what we're about to tell you.
Your son, Mark Allen Lee, has been killed in
action. And as a parent, that's the most devastating
news you could ever receive. And I remember standing
there and trying to. Except that, you know, God
in his grace allows us to be so numb in the beginning
that we can't, we can't process it. We can't
accept it. Because we'd all go, you know, commit
hair carry and jump off a cliff somewhere if
we had to immediately accept that and process
that. And I remember that we talked for a little
bit and they left. Went and sat on the couch
and I had a long skinny window next to my door.
I looked outside and my friends from my small
group were standing outside. I'm like, what the
heck are you doing out there? Get inside. I need
you inside. And so I motioned them in and, you
know, shared about Mark. And, you know, we cried
and we prayed and we talked and, you know, we
cried and they stayed for several hours. It,
you know, got to be close to midnight and they
left. And as I said, I started to get phone calls
from the guys in Iraq. And my son Christopher
said, Mom, I'm going to stay here tonight. I
said, thanks, son. He had met his wife when he
was in Okinawa and she had gone home for six
weeks. She got to go home every summer to be
with her family. And so he decided not to tell
her. Because both my daughter -in -law and my
daughter the year before had both lost babies
at about five or five and a half months along.
And they both had just got pregnant. So we were
concerned that, you know, the stress could cause
miscarriages. So he decided not to tell her.
How he did that, I have no idea. You know, the
toughest news, he's ever had to endure as well.
And he has conversations with his wife and is
trying to act like everything's just normal.
He knew she was coming home. You know, she would
be home just before the funeral. But for, you
know, that was six more days out or however long
it was. And so he said, Mom, I'm going to stay
here tonight. I said, thank you, son. And he
said, I'm going to go try to get some sleep.
I said, OK. Well, I knew there was no way sleep
was coming to me that night. And I'd mentioned
that I'd been a widow at that point for 12 years.
And I just wanted somebody to hold me and tell
me it was going to be OK. And there wasn't anybody
there. to do that. But I didn't know who could
do that for me. I knew God promises to be a husband
to the widow and a father to the fatherless.
And I'd seen him do that over and over for me
in numerous different ways. And so I knew where
my strength was going to come from. And I went
and grabbed my Bible to sit down and just read
and get some comfort there. And it opened to
Psalms 27. It starts out, the Lord is my light
and my salvation. Whom shall I fear? The Lord
is the strength of my life. Of whom shall I be
afraid? When the wicked came against me to eat
up my flesh, my enemies and my foes, they stumbled
and they fell. Though an army may encamp against
me, my heart shall not fear. Though war may rise
against me. And I'm reading this thinking. Okay,
this is David. This is thousands of years ago
this was written. But this could have been written
to me today for my circumstances. Excuse me.
And I read through the bottom of it. And the
second to last verse said, I would have lost
hope if I had not believed. I would see the goodness
of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait on
the Lord. Be of good courage. And he will strengthen
your heart. Wait, I say. And I saw that courage
thing. I'm like, okay, wait a minute. I got the
courage angel earlier in the night. And now you're
reminding me again, courage. Okay, God, I got
it. I will have courage, not on my own strength,
because I know you're with me and because I know
you will be with me through the end. And I could
not have felt and embrace and felt someone holding
me closer. Then I felt God holding me at that
moment that night as if he'd have physically
been there. And again, for me, that was just
that reminder. He saw he knew what I needed and
he was comforting me at that very moment in my
my deepest pain. And it has been a process. Like
I said, you know, the beginning days of grief,
they are days. There are days when you can't
get out of bed and all you want to do is cry.
And I didn't sleep for several days. It wasn't
a hell week. It was a hell week in my life, but
it wasn't, you know, an entire week that I didn't
sleep. But I had several days that I really couldn't
sleep. And it just began that long process of
grief and accepting. And, you know, I wanted
to think for a long time. He still deployed.
He still deployed. You know, that's what my head
wanted to tell me or my heart. I guess my heart
wanted to tell me the head was the reality of.
Yeah, no, he's not coming back home. But it's
not like one day I ever woke up and said, I'm
going to start a foundation. You know, one thing
just led to another. And I wanted to honor Mark.
I wanted to thank our veterans who were still
serving. And Mark's letter reminded me, you know,
when's the last time you paid for a stranger's
cup of coffee or meal or tank of gas? I could
do that. In the midst of my grief, that was a
little task that I could go do. I could thank
a veteran. And one thing led to another. And
I would just happen to be in Washington, D .C.
when he had another Navy SEAL that was flown
in with their face blown off or their legs blown
off. And I just happened to be in Washington,
D .C. when you live in Arizona. God placed me
there just for that time. And that was where
he gifted me to be able to support in those tragic
times. to encourage them and be there for them.
I went to so many funerals. Everyone after Mark
died, I'd be there at those funerals to support
those families. The first one was Mike Monsoor.
Seven weeks after Mark was killed, we lost Mikey
Monsoor, who jumped on a grenade to save his
teammates and was awarded the Medal of Honor
for his heroic actions. And there wasn't. Any
other gold star mom there to walk alongside me
in the beginning, Mark's teammates were still
deployed. That was, you know, my major support.
We had support, you know, from up to the funeral.
But then everybody goes on their, they go back
to their normal lives. They go on their way.
And I'm not someone to sit around and feel sorry
for myself and say, hey, why are you here helping
me? Why are you supporting me? But it's like,
oh, I can sure make sure no one else has to go
through this alone. I didn't expect that it would
be that soon after Mark died, but I knew I needed
to be there to support Mikey's family. I didn't
know what I was going to do exactly other than
be there giving a hug and let them know I'm a
few steps ahead of you and I'm still alive. My
heart literally, not was it just emotionally
broken, it was physically, it hurt. My heart
really hurt going through that. And the stress
causes a lot of sickness, you know, in that first
year for people who've gone through major tragedy
like that. But it just one thing led to another.
God would push me another step forward, have
me be in another place. And pretty soon I'm like,
OK, I think this is a life mission that God's
trying to tell me to do. And I don't have unlimited
financial resources that I can just do this out
of my own pocket. And so then we started America's
Mighty Warriors to be able to. support our troops
our veterans and other gold star families and
it has been a tough mission that god's asked
me to walk but he's equipped me and given me
exactly what i need to do and it is so rewarding
you know to be able to do that and support those
who pay a dear price for the freedoms we enjoy
every day well i just want to start again by
by thanking you for for telling you know mark's
story and your story because i think this is
what people need to hear as well me again as
a civilian not in the military from the outside
looking in i see a huge responsibility on the
people who send our younger men and women to
war and there's times when it's completely justified
but i think we need to hear you know from the
the warriors themselves from the families themselves
like hey when when we do this This is the cost.
This is what you're asking not only the individual,
but their families to go through and endure for
the rest of their lives. So, you know, I mean,
World War II is a perfect example. There are
some conflicts that are absolutely justified
and the lives lost were to stop evil. But there's
a tendency as well, if we're not careful, for
people to want to send our men and women everywhere.
So it's such a powerful perspective. Obviously,
you know, Ramadi was a very... worthwhile conflict.
And Iraq is starting to grow from that now. But
it's so easy for a news agency to just put a
bunch of numbers on a PowerPoint and say, oh,
this is how many people were killed. This was
one person. And we, anyone who's not deployed,
anyone who's not in the military, need to hear
people like Mark's story and people like your
story so that we can understand not only the
magnitude of what we're asking them, but also
have the gratitude for what they have done for
us. Yeah. One of the ways I autograph the books
that I'm a contributing author in is live your
life worthy of their sacrifice. And I think you're
so spot on with what you said that the civilians
need to understand that cost. Our government
needs to understand that cost. I feel like war
should always be the last resort. We need to
try so many other things. You know, there's.
sanctions we can do on countries. There's diplomatic
things we can try. And we did. We tried all that
earlier. And I still believe we were justified
in what we did. I am disappointed that oftentimes
there were not rules of engagement that allowed
us to be successful and do the mission that we
do. I think there could have been some different
strategies at different times. But I do still
feel like it was the right thing to do. We were
attacked here on our soil and had a huge loss
of life on September 11th. And there is so much
evil that's out there in this world. And we can't
allow that to flourish and continue to grow.
We need to stop that where we can't. No, we shouldn't
be out there policing every nation and trying
to run every other government. And, you know,
we have a hard enough time doing that in the
United States. But, you know, I think that war
should always be a last resort and should be
taken very seriously. That decision when we make
that decision and that the understanding of the
loss of life, you know, that could be involved
or most likely will be involved. But again, then
we live our lives worthy of those sacrifices.
We go on day to day. saying, okay, this is what
was given for me. What am I going to give back
in return for that gift? And, you know, so that's
kind of, you know, my motto that I live by. I
want to live my life worthy of the sacrifice.
For me, obviously, John 15, 13. That's what we've
got on the back of our, you know, Mark Lee Memorial
t -shirt, which says, greater love has no one
in this than to lay down their life for their
friends. And that original intent is what Christ
did in laying his life down for us so that we
can be free from the consequences of our sin.
That's for eternity. What Mark did and others
have done and the sacrifices here to keep us
free as Americans. But that applies. Live your
life worthy of their sacrifice, whether it's
a sacrifice God did in giving his son or the
sacrifice that, you know, we did. And, you know,
what Mark did, giving his life as my son. Absolutely.
Well, I want to just talk about one more area
and then we'll transition to some closing questions.
And, you know, I know we've gone way past the
90 minutes we talked about. But what I've seen
again as a common denominator is when people
are able to process their grief. And they're
then able to start helping others. That altruistic
element seems also very healing for the individual.
Did you observe once you started the foundation
that not only were you able to help all these
gold star families, but there was also a healing
within yourself too? I think definitely anytime
we can serve somebody else and do something for
somebody else, that helps immensely in the healing
process. And as I work with families who are
struggling, in that healing process, whether
it's grief, whether it's post -traumatic stress,
whatever tragedies they're going through. I encourage
them, first thing to do, wake up in the morning
and find one thing to be grateful for. I know
in those beginning stages of grief, it was really
hard to find something. But I would say, did
you have hot water in your shower this morning
or last night or whatever? Yes. OK, just say
thank you that I had hot water in my shower.
You know, a lot of our troops deployed don't
have that freedom. They don't have a lot of third
world countries don't have hot water in their
shower. You know, and there's something in our
psyche that when we start out being grateful
for something, it's contagious. And it doesn't
matter what your circumstances, how fresh that
grief is, how deep that grief is. You do that.
And I'll bet later in the day you're going to
find something else, you know, subconsciously
that you're like. Oh man, I'm blessed that, you
know, these grandkids are here today. I'm blessed
that I'll thank you for this meal, you know,
the little things in life. And then I say, get
up and do some type of exercise. There's a natural
endorphin that's released when you're exercising.
So whether it's run up one flight of stairs,
if that's your choice for the day. Then increase
the next day and do two flights of stairs. You
know, just do something. Even if it's just walk
to the end of your driveway and back, do something.
And then, you know, continue to increase that.
And then go serve somebody else. Whether it's
knocking on your neighbor's door and offering
to take their dog for a walk, going to preschool,
reading a book to the kids there. It doesn't
have to be starting a foundation and reaching
out, you know, on a major way. But do something
for somebody else. When you're serving somebody
else, you're looking outward. You're not looking
inward and focusing on your pain and your grief.
And so I think, yes, that definitely has been
a huge part of the healing process. I don't know
that I subconsciously knew that when I started
all this, but God did when he placed me there
and had me doing those things. But those are
huge ways to heal. And anytime you can see the
positive, you know, and the impact that you're
making in somebody else's life. And like you
said, go read Mark's letter, those things, you
know, he, it doesn't even have to be buying something.
He said, when's the last time you helped a stranger
with their groceries into or out of the car?
Just think that one thing you're loading your
cart, you know, with your groceries and maybe
you're struggling. Maybe you live in Arizona.
It's 115 degrees outside. And you're like, Oh
my gosh, I'm going to be over 10 minutes. And
somebody comes by and says, Hey, can I help you
with that in the car? And you'd be like, Oh my
gosh, thank you so much. That's awesome. And
you get back in the car and you're like, wow,
that was really cool that they did that. And
it changes your whole attitude and outlook for
the day. So I think those are major things that
can be done. Absolutely. Well, I agree 100%.
Absolutely. It's funny, actually. I was at a
restaurant in Ohio going back with my wife and
a gentleman walked, well, was sitting waiting
for a table with the World War II hat, which
you don't see very often at all. So we were able
to sneakily pay for their. They're checked, too.
And then we kind of ran away. That's awesome.
Didn't film it and put it on Instagram. Yeah,
it feels good to do that. So we don't have very
many of our World War II veterans left. No. And
then I told my wife after, I'm like. I hope that
was one of those moments where, you know, there's
got to be a lot of veterans that see some of
the behaviors that are going on in the moment
and feel there's a lack of gratitude. So I hope
it's, you know, when we help anyone, it's great.
But I think when it's toward a veteran, I hope
it kind of restores their faith in the country
that they fought for. Yes, agreed, agreed. Good
on you guys for doing that. That's awesome. Well,
it was Fourth of July. Mark would be happy. Mark
would be happy. Well, you mentioned that you
co -authored a couple of books. So before I ask
you about other people's books, tell me the titles
of those so people can find them. So they're
all on our website. If you go to our website,
actually, we've got all of Jocko and Leif, any
of the books that Mark's teammates have written
that talk about Mark. One of them that I'm a
contributing author in is How to Raise an American
Patriot. Each chapter is a different author and
they talk about what they did to instill patriotism
in their kids' lives. So that kind of talks about,
you know, Mark as a youth growing up and some
of those things that we did and then ends telling
his amazing heroic story on his final day. Another
one's 10 Secrets of Overcomers. It takes 10 people
who went through tragedy in their life. We're
the only military related story, but the things
that they did in their tragedies to overcome,
that kind of starts. With Mark's heroic actions
the day he died and what we've done since then
to get through the grief and overcome that. The
other book is Stories of Faith from Iraq and
Afghanistan. And that's 365 daily devotions written
by men and women who've been in Iraq and Afghanistan
or were on the Pentagon on 9 -11. It's a short
story of their circumstances and easy, you know,
read for the day. And then maybe at the end,
it just has a short scripture prayer, not, you
know, very light, you know, type of devotional.
I have five in there and Marcellus led her home
is on two days of that. And then there's also
a book called victory in Iraq that Duncan Hunter
senior wrote the documents, all the different
troop movement in Iraq up to 2010. And when we
were, you know, successful before they did the,
left and then we had to go back and start over
again. That documents my first trip to Iraq.
There's some pictures of Mark and I in there.
Also documents Mark's amazing story in there.
And then, you know, all of Echelon Front, Kevin
Lace, who was the medic that was with Mark, his
book is up there. All the books that are on our
website do share Mark's amazing story or dedicated
to Mark. Other than Jocko's book, Mikey and the
Dragon, actually, I think it's still dedicated
to Mark. But that's Mark is the main character
in the Jocko's kids books that are the leadership
books, the way the warrior kids. And that was
funny because the first one was from wimpy to
warrior. And when Jocko was writing the book,
he's like, hey, Mama Lee, I'm not saying Mark
was a wimpy kid, but I want to just honor him.
And so there's some similarities in there. Mark
is raised in the book by, you know, a single
mom. And but and I always tell people, man, it.
It doesn't need to just be kids that read those
books. You know, the leadership principles are
great for every adult. I've read every one of
the way of the warrior kid books. But Mikey and
the Dragon is who knew Dr. Dr. Seuss and Jocko
would have some similarities. But it rhymes in
there in parts of the book and it has to deal
with fear and how this little boy faced his dragons.
He thought there was a dragon in every room.
And Mikey is to honor Mike Montour. Beautiful.
My son's read the first two Warrior Kid books,
too. So he's actually asking me to get him another
one. So I definitely resonate with him, too.
Beautiful. So that's the books. Are there any
movies or documentaries that you love to recommend
to people? Yes. The one that I recommend is History
Channel did a documentary called Warfighter.
And it's the story of Mark Lee and Charlie Platoon.
And after American Sniper came out, not only
was I very upset with the way Mark was portrayed,
but his teammates were as well. So Jocko and
Leif reached out to me and said, would you be
interested in doing a documentary, you know,
with Hollywood? And I'm like, no, nothing else
to do with Hollywood. I saw what they did to
Mark. They threw him under the bus and they said,
well, there's a team guy that's involved in the
project. I'm like, do you know him well? So you
can go break his arms and legs. And they said,
yes, we know very well. I'm like, OK, if you
guys trust him, I trust you. So it's actually
Jocko and Leif and myself and Jason Hogan, another
one of the teammates, Tony Afrati. And so they
reenact the actual story. They also talk about
Mark. They talk about the mission. And very well
done. Very well done. It's a series of eight.
Mark was the first series they did on that. So
that would be. The documentary. There's a lot
of other. There's a brush of honor that they
did a story on Mark. It's a gentleman who did
a portrait of Mark. And in the process, they
tell Mark's story and talk about America's Mighty
Warriors on there as well. But, yeah, there's
there's a lot of information out there. If they
just Google Mark or America's Mighty Warriors
or there's a lot you can find out there on the
Internet about Mark and what we're doing through
our foundation in his memory. Beautiful. Well,
the next question, is there a person you'd recommend
to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to
the first responders, military, and associated
professionals of the world? Have you had Jocko
or Leif? I've had Jocko. Leif's going to be coming
on in the fall, I believe. Jocko's actually been
on twice now. I've had Dave Burke and JP as well.
And then Jamie is about to come on next week.
Nice. Awesome. Well, those would probably be
the ones that I would recommend. So you're a
step ahead of me. Beautiful. All right. Well,
then the last question before we make sure we
tell everyone where they can find the foundation
and reach out to you. What do you do to decompress?
What do I do to decompress? I would say my decompression
is my grandkids. I love having my grandkids around.
I had a preschool and kindergarten for 15 years
and had 45 kids around me every day. So most
people were like, don't you get stressed having
all five of them at the same time? I've got 11,
six of them are up in Oregon, but five live near
me. And I'm like, no, that's my, I love having
them around. I like to swim. I do walk five miles
every day. So, you know, not all in one chunk,
but, you know, a mile here, two miles there.
But, and then, yeah, I like to read. Brilliant.
All right. For people listening then, where's
the best place to find the foundation online?
And then are there any other places that people
can reach out to you specifically? Sure. They
can follow us on social media. Also, our website
is AmericasMightyWarriors .org. And it's A -M
-E -R -I -C -A -S -M -I -G -H -T -Y -W -A -R
-R -I -O -R -S. Sometimes the S's don't come
out clearly when I say it. But yeah, check us
out. See what we're doing. We've got tons of
merchandise there as well. You know, if your
listeners are interested in supporting us, we
always need supporters. They can sign up for
our 21 and 21 campaign where they commit to giving
$21 a month on a recurring basis. And if we find
2021 people this year, that meets more than half
of our budget. And of course, with our foundation,
we have four main programs. Our first program
is our random acts of kindness. We do that. Like
Mark said, when's the last time you paid for
a stranger's cup of coffee meal or a tank of
gas, but we do go up to a $5 ,000 grant. Typically
that's crisis situation, but the veteran themselves
can't reach out because unfortunately we have
found veterans that are just going from charity
to charity to see what they can take. And that's
not who we want to support. So if you knew someone,
you know, even law enforcement, if they served
in the military and there's a crisis situation.
You can reach out and say, have known this person
for three years, five years, 10 years. You know,
their daughter has cancer and is dying and the
family needs to be with them and can't work.
Or, you know, house just burnt to the ground
or, you know, whatever crisis situation. That
helps us vet them. And then usually within 24
hours, we can have a check out and ready to support
them. Our Helping Heroes Heal program, we're
paying for our veterans who are from combat,
have post -traumatic stress or traumatic brain
injury. We're paying for hyperbaric oxygen therapy,
hormone and vitamin therapy, natural things that
are actually healing their body. So many of the
things they're trying right now are just masking
the symptoms. They're not healing their bodies.
And so that's what we're focused on there. We've
seen amazing results take place there. Our Gold
Star program, we have two houses, one in Arizona,
one in Florida, where the families can come stay
free for a week. We take care of their airfare
rental car. And just love and pamper on them.
Let them know we won't ever forget your hero
and we won't forget you. And then we do retreats
down in Texas. We just had 76 Gold Star family
members down there the week of Memorial Day.
A beautiful facility that has zipline, kayaking,
canoeing, three swimming pools, water slides.
Just amazing place where they just come and relax
and recreate and connect with other families.
We don't do counseling. We don't do therapy.
It's not, it's just. to connect with other families.
I feel like the grieving process needs to be
natural. Don't force me. If I'm having a great
day, please do not put me in a circle with 20
other moms and pass the teddy bear and we all
share our son's story of what happened the day
they died. We're all going to be blubbering idiots
by the end of the time. And then we do a lot
of advocacy and education. So if there's an injustice,
we'll try to step in and make that right, whether
it's our government, a corporation, and just
letting people know the sacrifices that are made.
what we need to do to continue to support them.
Mark's name meant mighty warrior. And I'm sure
you will agree, as your listeners will, he definitely
lived up to his name. But it's not just about
Mark. It's about every man and woman who served.
It's about every other Gold Star member. And
that's why the name of our foundation is America's
Mighty Warriors. Beautiful. Well, I just want
to thank you, firstly, for telling your own powerful
story. And I always say this. It's such a dichotomy
to use one of Leif and Jocko's words because,
you know, it is to get that courageous, transparent
story that I know is going to help so many people
also drags that individual back through. dark
chapters of their life. So I truly appreciate
your courage in telling the story today, but
also Mark's story. I mean, to hear who he was
and the altruist that he was and the impact,
the ripple effect of one single life to where
it is now and watching Jocko and Leif and everyone
talking about him and watching them visibly moved
15 years later. You know, it's it's been such
a powerful conversation. So thank you so much,
not only for telling your story, but being so
generous with a two hour conversation today.
Well, thank you. God bless you for what you do.