WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr, yet

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another company that's doing great things for

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the first responder community. As a strength

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that we as a profession start tracking our people

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from day one and then over the full span of their

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features. And if you want to take a deeper dive

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into Team Builder, listen to episode 1032 with

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Melissa Mercado or go to teambuildr .com. And

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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you

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think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome

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to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,

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my name is James Geering, and this week it is

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my absolute honor to welcome on the show Vietnam

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veteran, former law enforcement officer, and

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the author of Honorable Intentions, Russell Jones.

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Now, Russell is definitely one of the most interesting

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people I've had on the show, and I say that because

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of the diverse spectrum of his career. From flying

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helicopters in Vietnam, to working as a police

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officer in California, then undercover intelligence

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all over the world, including being part of a

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team that uncovered Operation Tipped Kettle,

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riding with the Hell's Angels, working as a forensic

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expert in the psychological and physiological

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effects of drugs and alcohol, and so, so much

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more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,

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as I say every week, please just take a moment,

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go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

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to the show, Leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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well over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in

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return is that you help share these incredible

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men and women's stories so I can get them to

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every single person on planet Earth who needs

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to hear them. So that being said... I introduce

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to you, Russell Jones. Enjoy. Well, Russell,

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I want to start by saying thank you so much for

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taking the time and coming on the Behind the

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Shield podcast today. Absolutely. It's my honor

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to be here. I look forward to this. So where

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on planet Earth are we finding you this afternoon?

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I'm in the sunny, wonderful, beautiful Rolling

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Hills in Texas on the Guadalupe River, right?

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where all the drama was a couple of weeks ago

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well talk to me about that as a resident in that

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area you know what what were what were you know

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the some of the sad stories you heard and then

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some of the stories of heroism from someone who's

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literally in that area well we were we're downstream

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from canyon dam and the flooding was upstream

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so we didn't we just knew we had a lot of rain

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we woke up July 4th, thinking the day was normal.

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And then, of course, started hearing all the

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news. And I really don't know anymore. We didn't

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see anything. We're less than an hour away, but

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you knew not to drive up there. You were just

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going to be in the way. And so we didn't know

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any more about it than you did on the news. Gotcha.

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And, of course, lots of story of heroism. Sadly,

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though, a loss of life. I was talking to one

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of my kind of, let's say friends, people that

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I'm connected with online. And he was literally

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at Guadalupe River as we were speaking with the

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USAR team searching for people. And I think a

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lot of times it seems like the media numbers

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are woefully underreported. I know they're still

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missing tens of people, I believe, at the moment.

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So it's so sad. If you watch the footage of the

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river dams breaking and then just rising through

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some of these cities. Absolutely heartbreaking.

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It's no wonder so many people were lost because

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it was instantaneous almost. It's sad and people

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not following protocol for situations like that.

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We have an early warning system and the weather

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service put out plenty of warnings that there

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were going to be storms and flooding. One of

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the problems is we hear this again and again

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and again. Every time there's a rainstorm coming,

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we get told possible flooding, you know, low

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water crossings. And pretty soon it becomes kind

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of, you hear it, but it just goes in one ear

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and out the other as the old saying goes. And

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then, of course, this time the warnings were

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correct. I was literally having this conversation

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yesterday with a group of men that I coach, and

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there's women too, at the gym. And this particular

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afternoon, we had a Florida storm blow in. So

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one minute we're pushing metal sleds around.

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The next minute lightning's hitting the cell

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phone tower a few hundred feet away. And we're

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like, okay, we need to not be pushing metal sleds

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around now. But it's the same thing. I mean,

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you know, you get these hurricanes come in and

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all these, you know. Weather personalities, I

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don't even know how well versed they are in meteorology,

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but they become this kind of icon during the

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hurricane and there's kind of fear mongering

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going on. And I think sometimes we get way too

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much information rather than, you know, when

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it when it's deemed truly necessary, then you

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give these reports rather than this kind of,

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oh, there might be something coming because it

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does. It just numbs people to the reality of

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something really serious. Exactly. Exactly. uh

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the news dramatizes um of course they want you

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to they want you to watch and read so um they

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dramatize it absolutely all right well let's

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go to the very beginning of your timeline you

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have pretty incredible kind of life stories so

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tell me where you were born and tell me a little

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bit about your family dynamic what your parents

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did how many siblings I was born in the San Francisco,

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San Jose Bay Area. A little background before

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that, though. My father was stationed at Camp

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Rucker, Alabama. And Sunday afternoon, they weren't

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training. He was a sergeant training advanced

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infantry. And Sunday afternoon, nothing going

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on. But, of course, the attack on Pearl Harbor

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occurred. drama, getting everybody ready. Their

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whole division was to be loaded up on train,

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sent to New York, from New York to the South

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Pacific. My father's company and just his company

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got misplaced on the train and they ended up

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in California. And the Army didn't have time

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to fool with them. This was the beginning of

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the war. The Army had other things to do. So

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my dad and his company bivouacked in downtown

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San Jose, St. James Park, until they finally

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sent them to Camp Roberts or Hunter Leggett,

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which is in the Monterey area of California,

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where they began training replacements. But it

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was because of that. My father was introduced

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to, he was born and raised in Tennessee, very

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poor. He would never experience California otherwise.

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But I like to call it the broken shoelace theory

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or the sliding door theory. But for this little

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innocuous event, how your life can go different

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directions, how this little innocuous event.

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My dad never saw action in World War II, obviously,

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therefore wasn't wounded, and came back and settled

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in California where I was born. So we were in

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San Jose until I was about kindergarten. But

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I remember watching my father ride to work on

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a bicycle. He dug trenches and ditches, septic

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tanks by hand back then. Around six or so when

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we moved to Los Gatos. And Los Gatos, Saratoga,

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Campbell, that's where I was raised for the rest

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of my life, grew up. And my dad began his own

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pest control service. Finally got a pickup. I

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remember it was an old yellow beat -up 40s yellow

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pickup. Started his own pest control business,

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and from there he became very successful. But

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he was also very involved in the Baptist church,

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and he became an ordained minister. And when

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I was 12, 13 range, well, when I was supposed

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to be in seventh and eighth grade, we were missionaries

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in Recife, Brazil, helping to establish a girls'

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orphanage. So I never went to junior high school.

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Which I regret because I missed out on a lot

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of youth sports and things like that in those

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development years. But when we returned from

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missionary work, I entered my freshman year of

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high school and we attended church. Everything

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was church. The church made sure that they had

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an activity going on the same night the schools

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were having activities. So we had Boys Brigade

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instead of... being able to go to Boy Scouts.

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The church was always going skating or miniature

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golf. Anytime the school was having a school

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dance. So wasn't active in high school, didn't

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really know a lot of people in high school. I

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think socially, I think that hurt a little bit,

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not growing up, being active in school and everything.

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Unsupervised. I was always in trouble, constantly

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in trouble. Before we moved from San Jose, there

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was Santana Road today is a huge shopping center.

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Well, back in the early 50s, it was a big grass

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field. And I, playing with matches, making a

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forward, I started that field on fire. Fire engines

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came, and of course, someone saw me scooting

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home, so I got caught. The only time I got caught,

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by the way, in my shenanigans. In today's world,

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I would have been maybe still diagnosed ADHD.

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I disagree with the trend today in pathologizing

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personalities. But yeah, what do we have? 300

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disorders in the DSM today. The first edition

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had 106. So over that short period of time, they

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keep adding. We're diagnosing personalities is

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one of my complaints about that. Exacerbating

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medical treatment. I can remember the satanic

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cult panic in the 80s. 12 ,000 unsubstantiated

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cases were reported back then. What else? We

00:13:08.330 --> 00:13:10.929
had other things. Oh, dissociative disorders,

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multiple personalities. That was a big deal back

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in the 90s. Growing up in high school, not a

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good student. I couldn't sit still. I needed

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to be doing things. And I used to make pipe bombs.

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Back then in the early 60s, I could ride my bicycle

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into Los Gatos, go to a pharmacy and buy everything

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I needed to make pipe bombs. All the ingredients,

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which they carry in pharmacies today. Pharmacies

00:13:45.970 --> 00:13:48.549
are completely different today. But, you know,

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I got potassium nitrate, sulfur, powdered charcoal.

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I'd roll it out in a wet mixture and I would

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dry it in my mom's oven in the house. I look

00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:05.840
back and go, are you kidding? I'd make pipe bombs.

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Just take a six inch piece of pipe, put a cap

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on one end. The other cap, I'd drill a hole in

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it for a fuse. Fill it with my homemade pipe,

00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:20.200
my homemade gunpowder. I'd go out in the orchard.

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We lived on five acres of orchards, mostly prune,

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but we had peach, cherry. plums, apricots, but

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I'd find an old dead prune tree and I'd bury

00:14:30.330 --> 00:14:33.570
that pipe and of course I'd blow it up and I

00:14:33.570 --> 00:14:37.590
had a lot of fun. It was great. One of my other

00:14:37.590 --> 00:14:40.690
fun things to do is I learned how to make hydrogen

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at home and I'd take a large coke bottle and

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I'd make the hydrogen in that coke bottle and

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put a large balloon on the top and as the hydrogen

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filled up the balloon when it got full, I'd tie

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it off. And then I'd attach a fuse to it, and

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then I'd let it go in the neighborhood. And it'd

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get up about 100, 200 feet and, of course, explode

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in this big, cumulus, billowing cloud of fire

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with a loud roar. Of course, the neighbors would

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see it. They'd call in the cops. The cops would

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come in looking to find out what's going on.

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You know, did you see anything? Uh -uh. I had

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fun. Just blowing things up, causing trouble.

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Graduated from high school, just C's. Just a

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solid C student. And so when I entered West Valley

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College, which was there in Campbell, California,

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I had no clue. No clue what I wanted to do. But

00:15:44.029 --> 00:15:47.720
John Morgan, great guy. Chief John Morgan of

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Campbell Police Department ran the administration

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of justice program. And he talked me into going

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into the admin of justice program. And I loved

00:15:55.600 --> 00:16:01.100
it. A's and B's, solid A's and B's. But I had

00:16:01.100 --> 00:16:04.240
graduated high school at only 17. So when I graduated

00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:07.649
two years of college, I was only 19. I was a

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long way away from being able to be hired by

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a police department. A lot of my buddies that

00:16:11.929 --> 00:16:15.490
were with me, Dan Jensen, Roger Malcolm, Mitch

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Handa, those guys, they were within a year of

00:16:20.210 --> 00:16:23.649
being able to be hired. And so they were able

00:16:23.649 --> 00:16:27.029
to start the testing program, go through what

00:16:27.029 --> 00:16:32.870
needed to be done. I had already had my pilot's

00:16:32.870 --> 00:16:35.029
license. I had gotten my pilot's license the

00:16:35.029 --> 00:16:38.070
same year I got my driver's license. And first

00:16:38.070 --> 00:16:41.190
in gliders, then fixed wings. So I wanted to

00:16:41.190 --> 00:16:44.490
go. I knew I was going to get drafted. At that

00:16:44.490 --> 00:16:46.870
age, something's going to come up. So I went

00:16:46.870 --> 00:16:48.830
to the Air Force. I went to the Navy. And they

00:16:48.830 --> 00:16:54.009
said, no, you need a four -year degree. So then

00:16:54.009 --> 00:16:56.429
I went to the Army. And I went in to the Army

00:16:56.429 --> 00:17:00.169
recruiting. And I said, how about military police?

00:17:00.730 --> 00:17:03.610
I got a two -year degree in administration and

00:17:03.610 --> 00:17:06.609
justice. And they said, yeah. And they start

00:17:06.609 --> 00:17:08.529
putting out the paperwork because they're anxious

00:17:08.529 --> 00:17:11.609
to sign someone up. And I noticed a poster on

00:17:11.609 --> 00:17:16.509
the wall, Army helicopters. I said, do I need

00:17:16.509 --> 00:17:19.789
a four -year degree to fly Army helicopters?

00:17:20.170 --> 00:17:22.970
They said, oh, no. Two -year degree and you're

00:17:22.970 --> 00:17:25.490
already a pilot? Again, they're all anxious.

00:17:26.069 --> 00:17:33.740
We test on Saturday. Get you signed up. Off to

00:17:33.740 --> 00:17:37.779
Mineral Wells, Texas for primary helicopter school.

00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:42.240
Then we had Fort Rucker, Fort Rucker, Camp Rucker

00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:44.279
back when my dad was in the Army. It's now Fort

00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:46.880
Rucker, home of Army Aviation, but went through

00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:51.579
Fort Rucker, Alabama, graduated as a warrant

00:17:51.579 --> 00:17:56.460
officer, helicopter pilot. I married Susan. high

00:17:56.460 --> 00:17:58.859
school sweetheart, and then I was off to Vietnam.

00:18:00.099 --> 00:18:03.579
There we go. Excitement, blowing things up, shooting

00:18:03.579 --> 00:18:07.019
things. I was looking forward to it. I was assigned

00:18:07.019 --> 00:18:10.160
to the 196th Light Infantry Brigade, and that

00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:14.279
was part of the Americal Division. And our aviation

00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:18.299
unit had only four helicopters, two Hueys and

00:18:18.299 --> 00:18:22.480
two LOHs. And the LOHs were scout helicopters

00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:26.569
going back. Small helicopters that dated back

00:18:26.569 --> 00:18:29.329
to the Korean War. I wasn't real excited about

00:18:29.329 --> 00:18:35.170
that I was going to be flying those, but we flew

00:18:35.170 --> 00:18:37.589
command and control for the brigade commander.

00:18:37.910 --> 00:18:42.130
We flew ashen transmissions with the Hueys. With

00:18:42.130 --> 00:18:46.900
the OH -23s, we flew liaison. personnel because

00:18:46.900 --> 00:18:49.279
you could only carry one or two passengers between

00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:52.400
division headquarters, brigade, or up to the

00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:55.279
Korean unit or up to the 1st Mar Division, which

00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:59.920
we bordered up there just south of Da Nang. But

00:18:59.920 --> 00:19:03.839
we had one assignment that I loved. I volunteered

00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:07.299
for it every time I could, and we flew scouts

00:19:07.299 --> 00:19:10.970
for the 1st Mar Div. So we'd spent a whole week

00:19:10.970 --> 00:19:14.829
up at the first Mars Day. We're looking for those

00:19:14.829 --> 00:19:19.450
122 millimeter rocket sites. And those are the

00:19:19.450 --> 00:19:22.470
rockets that they can fire from quite a distance

00:19:22.470 --> 00:19:25.869
away. They land on the airports. They would land

00:19:25.869 --> 00:19:28.289
in town. They were pretty indiscriminate about

00:19:28.289 --> 00:19:30.970
where they would land. So I love that mission.

00:19:31.150 --> 00:19:33.430
Low level. I mean, as low as you can get to the

00:19:33.430 --> 00:19:36.849
ground. In between bushes, hopping over tree

00:19:36.849 --> 00:19:43.720
lines. Caught. and dispatched via Kong on numerous

00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:51.180
occasions, sometimes even NVA soldiers. Someone

00:19:51.180 --> 00:19:54.700
asked me recently, what's it like to kill someone?

00:19:55.500 --> 00:20:00.460
And I've never been asked that before. When you're

00:20:00.460 --> 00:20:04.339
first in combat, it's stressful, but it's exciting.

00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:06.279
Guys like me, it was exciting. There's nothing

00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:10.019
more thrilling. For a guy like me to be shot

00:20:10.019 --> 00:20:15.180
at and missed, it's great. And I love the combat.

00:20:16.359 --> 00:20:19.779
So for me, when at first, when I had to dispatch,

00:20:20.059 --> 00:20:23.859
take out a VC or an MBA, I was killing someone

00:20:23.859 --> 00:20:27.480
who was going to harm other American soldiers

00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:30.279
if I didn't take him out. That's the way I looked

00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:34.920
at it. Other occasions, they're shooting at you.

00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:36.859
You're shooting at them. You get a heck of a

00:20:36.859 --> 00:20:41.099
gunfight going on. And so you're returning fire.

00:20:42.339 --> 00:20:44.400
You're protecting yourself. You're defending

00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:47.500
yourself. And, of course, the enemy ends up getting

00:20:47.500 --> 00:20:52.279
killed. But, you know, how do you describe an

00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:56.720
enemy soldier that is in a small area of bushes,

00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:00.119
and you catch him, so he starts shooting at you.

00:21:00.180 --> 00:21:04.950
You shoot back. Gunfire, dirt and dust flying

00:21:04.950 --> 00:21:07.890
up. All of a sudden he gets up and he runs away

00:21:07.890 --> 00:21:10.750
and he doesn't have his weapon. But he seems

00:21:10.750 --> 00:21:14.390
to be carrying something in his arm. And it seems

00:21:14.390 --> 00:21:16.829
to be dragging behind him like a big rope. And

00:21:16.829 --> 00:21:19.829
when you swoop in again to finish off, you realize

00:21:19.829 --> 00:21:26.250
he's carrying his intestines. You're sick. The

00:21:26.250 --> 00:21:29.569
nauseous feeling that floods your body. There's

00:21:29.569 --> 00:21:35.200
a form of stress. It's not easy sitting over

00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:40.259
dinner to describe these events, which is probably

00:21:40.259 --> 00:21:44.779
why a lot of people who've been in combat, their

00:21:44.779 --> 00:21:47.059
family complains, well, he never talks about

00:21:47.059 --> 00:21:53.000
it. That's why. I had an epiphany. About nine

00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:56.859
months in, I was beginning to sense the futility

00:21:56.859 --> 00:22:00.240
of that war. which, by the way, was measured

00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:04.619
not by territory seized, not the way World War

00:22:04.619 --> 00:22:07.200
II was fought or the Korean War was fought, but

00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:12.500
it was a war of attrition. In 1800s, Carl von

00:22:12.500 --> 00:22:16.480
Clausewitz, he declared that a war of attrition

00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:23.299
was the pit of hell. In February of 69, I was

00:22:23.299 --> 00:22:26.700
flying scouts for the 1st Marine Division south

00:22:26.700 --> 00:22:29.480
of Marble Mountain. I caught a whole squad of

00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:32.859
NVA who were sneaking up to attack a Marine patrol

00:22:32.859 --> 00:22:37.039
unit. Once they knew we knew where they were

00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:40.599
at, they shot at us. We fired back. We eventually

00:22:40.599 --> 00:22:44.180
killed four and wounded one, which we took prisoner.

00:22:45.539 --> 00:22:49.500
When I visually cleared the area out, I did as

00:22:49.500 --> 00:22:52.140
I usually do. I landed and took all the weapons

00:22:52.140 --> 00:22:54.730
off there. prisoners. And I, of course, looked

00:22:54.730 --> 00:22:57.630
for paperwork. The weapons were great for trading

00:22:57.630 --> 00:23:03.190
later from the Navy guys, cases of stakes and

00:23:03.190 --> 00:23:08.950
stuff like that. But the NVA lieutenant was dead,

00:23:09.029 --> 00:23:11.109
but on his person when I was going through his

00:23:11.109 --> 00:23:15.109
paperwork were pictures of his wife and children.

00:23:16.529 --> 00:23:20.670
And I realized then that I The American soldier,

00:23:20.829 --> 00:23:23.029
I was no different than the French who had been

00:23:23.029 --> 00:23:26.109
there years before or the Japanese who had occupied

00:23:26.109 --> 00:23:29.430
Vietnam during World War II. I was no different

00:23:29.430 --> 00:23:33.450
than that French soldier. That lieutenant was

00:23:33.450 --> 00:23:37.869
serving his country honorably. I was the intruder.

00:23:37.990 --> 00:23:41.549
I was a member of a foreign military invading

00:23:41.549 --> 00:23:47.329
his country. That epiphany, that realization.

00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:51.460
I found disturbing and stressful. And I didn't

00:23:51.460 --> 00:23:54.339
want to fly scouts anymore. I didn't want any

00:23:54.339 --> 00:23:55.680
more killing. I didn't want any more shooting.

00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:58.980
And because I had seniority, I was able to be

00:23:58.980 --> 00:24:02.359
assigned to the Hueys, flying what we call picnic

00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:06.039
missions for the rest of my tour. I was down

00:24:06.039 --> 00:24:12.680
to two months left. So on March 7th, 1969, I

00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:17.569
was... Made two flights. There was a unit, Delta

00:24:17.569 --> 00:24:21.150
Company, 3rd of the 21st, was in heavy combat.

00:24:21.410 --> 00:24:25.650
They needed medevacs. None were available. I

00:24:25.650 --> 00:24:28.970
was in the area. So I flew in twice into that

00:24:28.970 --> 00:24:34.170
hot LZ and in and out, in and out. Recovered

00:24:34.170 --> 00:24:37.430
10 wounded. But on that last mission, we had

00:24:37.430 --> 00:24:41.529
over 50 holes in the helicopter. I was wounded

00:24:41.529 --> 00:24:44.529
through the knee, through the calf. My door gunner

00:24:44.529 --> 00:24:46.730
was wounded badly. In fact, everyone was wounded

00:24:46.730 --> 00:24:50.470
except my co -pilot. In the Army, we call them

00:24:50.470 --> 00:24:54.970
aircraft commander and pilot. So Terry was not

00:24:54.970 --> 00:24:57.609
one of the only ones. But we made it back safe,

00:24:57.789 --> 00:25:02.930
got the wounded off. I immediately had to go

00:25:02.930 --> 00:25:08.470
into the medevac station and was sent to Da Nang

00:25:08.470 --> 00:25:11.000
where they operated on me. They sent me to Camp

00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:14.000
Zama, Japan, where I recovered a bit. And then

00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:18.640
I was home. You know, our soldiers in Vietnam

00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:22.599
served with honor. But what we didn't know at

00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:25.359
the time was that Vietnam was a failed policy.

00:25:25.500 --> 00:25:28.279
And after the war, all the major architects,

00:25:28.599 --> 00:25:31.000
Robert McNamara, on down, admitted that the war

00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:34.220
was a failed policy. A failed policy that resulted

00:25:34.220 --> 00:25:42.650
in 58 ,000 deaths. That's a stress, all our soldiers,

00:25:42.890 --> 00:25:45.470
the stress of knowing that you'd been over there

00:25:45.470 --> 00:25:50.150
fighting in a war that was a failed policy, that

00:25:50.150 --> 00:25:55.289
they knew was a failed policy. I was discharged

00:25:55.289 --> 00:26:02.809
in 1970. Susan and I had a son, Joey, hired by

00:26:02.809 --> 00:26:05.529
the San Jose Police Department. We had no academy

00:26:05.529 --> 00:26:10.160
back then. This would be 1970. No academy, no

00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:12.720
field training program. I was just sworn in by

00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:15.759
Chief Blackmore, given a badge and told to go

00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:20.500
be a cop. I worked a couple of weeks with a partner,

00:26:20.740 --> 00:26:25.339
a senior officer, and then I was on my own working

00:26:25.339 --> 00:26:30.119
a one -man car. And I know guys don't like to

00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:31.740
hear this. I'm sure it's the same way in the

00:26:31.740 --> 00:26:35.180
fire department. No one, none of the new guys

00:26:35.180 --> 00:26:37.650
in the fire department want it. when I hear the

00:26:37.650 --> 00:26:40.710
stories about how it was back when I was a fireman.

00:26:40.809 --> 00:26:47.230
We had to pump our water by hand. We worked a

00:26:47.230 --> 00:26:54.430
one -man car and we did not have cell radios.

00:26:54.730 --> 00:26:56.509
We didn't have radios back then. We didn't have

00:26:56.509 --> 00:26:59.049
cell phones either. So when you got out of your

00:26:59.049 --> 00:27:02.690
car back then, you were on your own. You handled

00:27:02.690 --> 00:27:09.079
it. I had rape cases. I arrested armed robbers.

00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:13.859
I had to step over the crispy bodies of victims

00:27:13.859 --> 00:27:18.579
from house fires. It was all police work. It's

00:27:18.579 --> 00:27:20.640
the stress and trauma that comes from police

00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:26.619
work. I had a hot chase where the suspect hit

00:27:26.619 --> 00:27:31.000
me with his car, spun around on the road, and

00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:33.960
came back at me again. He was definitely trying

00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:39.440
to take me out. I shot him. He lived. More stress.

00:27:39.859 --> 00:27:44.299
We were working 10 -hour shifts. So we worked

00:27:44.299 --> 00:27:50.900
four days a week, 10 to 8. Because I was low

00:27:50.900 --> 00:27:55.480
seniority, I worked midnights, 10 to 8. So you'd

00:27:55.480 --> 00:27:58.279
get off at 10 in the morning. That last night

00:27:58.279 --> 00:28:01.859
off, you work four days. Your last night off,

00:28:02.099 --> 00:28:04.720
you get off at 8 in the morning. Well, now you

00:28:04.720 --> 00:28:08.039
stay up all day. So that you can get back on

00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:10.640
the regular cycle. So that's one day without

00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:16.799
sleep. You go to sleep. Then you get two good

00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:22.759
days of sleep. And then you're back at, it's

00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:26.279
a day to go to work. Well, usually you've got

00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:29.440
things to do. You're not tired. You stay up all

00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:31.859
day and then you show up for work and you stay

00:28:31.859 --> 00:28:36.069
up all night. Sleep deprivation. probably not

00:28:36.069 --> 00:28:38.230
as serious as it is in the fire department, but

00:28:38.230 --> 00:28:42.589
for those guys working those night shifts, it's

00:28:42.589 --> 00:28:47.890
an issue. Two officers killed while I was on

00:28:47.890 --> 00:28:50.809
San Jose, and one was a personal friend, Gordy

00:28:50.809 --> 00:28:56.230
Silva, and another homeless man who had fallen

00:28:56.230 --> 00:28:58.990
through the ever -widening cracks in society

00:28:58.990 --> 00:29:04.380
where we find so many people a day. It was during

00:29:04.380 --> 00:29:06.660
that time Nixon had declared the war on drugs.

00:29:06.740 --> 00:29:09.599
As a police officer, I didn't see any evidence

00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:16.160
of a drug problem, except for alcohol. Early

00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:21.720
on, I had been working maybe a couple of weeks,

00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:27.519
one -man car. I had an accident, 2, 2 .30, 3

00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:30.359
in the morning, a car had hit a telephone pole.

00:29:33.289 --> 00:29:36.289
No other cars were involved. I told communications,

00:29:36.750 --> 00:29:39.910
you know, I'm present. I'm fine. Don't look like

00:29:39.910 --> 00:29:42.809
I need help or anything. Walked up to the driver

00:29:42.809 --> 00:29:45.470
and he had eaten the steering wheel. He was all

00:29:45.470 --> 00:29:48.730
bloody and he was eyes glazed over. I knew he

00:29:48.730 --> 00:29:52.109
was drunk. And I look through the window and

00:29:52.109 --> 00:29:55.329
I see his passenger and she appeared to be unconscious.

00:29:55.970 --> 00:29:58.710
So I went around the passenger side door, opened

00:29:58.710 --> 00:30:02.130
it up and she just fell out onto the pavement.

00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:07.759
And she was wearing a wedding gown. This was

00:30:07.759 --> 00:30:11.839
the bride and groom. And cars are passing me,

00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:15.519
honking their horns, blowing, you know, whistling,

00:30:15.740 --> 00:30:19.519
yelling. They thought I just stopped a car. They

00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:21.339
didn't even recognize it was the bride and groom.

00:30:23.099 --> 00:30:29.359
Unfortunately, she passed away. When I went to

00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:31.180
the hospital, she was already gone. Apparently,

00:30:31.180 --> 00:30:34.720
she had. hit her forehead on the windshield and

00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:39.759
broken her neck. Sad. I saw more problems with

00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:42.740
alcohol than I did with drugs, no offense or

00:30:42.740 --> 00:30:45.599
both. I worked as a K -9 officer for a while.

00:30:46.339 --> 00:30:49.220
Then I became a field training officer. We just

00:30:49.220 --> 00:30:52.140
had started the field training program in San

00:30:52.140 --> 00:30:56.099
Jose. And by the way, San Jose Police Department's

00:30:56.099 --> 00:31:00.549
FTO program is now the standard. across the state

00:31:00.549 --> 00:31:05.329
of California and with many police departments

00:31:05.329 --> 00:31:09.950
across the United States. Well, I had barely

00:31:09.950 --> 00:31:11.730
been on the department three years when I was

00:31:11.730 --> 00:31:15.869
transferred to the narcotics division. And all

00:31:15.869 --> 00:31:18.029
the talk about the war on drugs, I thought, now

00:31:18.029 --> 00:31:20.470
here's a war I can sink my teeth into, so to

00:31:20.470 --> 00:31:24.809
speak. And I was put on the major violator team.

00:31:26.129 --> 00:31:29.109
We had three teams in our narcotics unit. One

00:31:29.109 --> 00:31:32.269
was what we called the street detail. And that

00:31:32.269 --> 00:31:35.029
was three cops, three or four cops. I forget

00:31:35.029 --> 00:31:37.509
how many were on the team. And they were clean

00:31:37.509 --> 00:31:42.009
cut, but they wore civilian clothes and they

00:31:42.009 --> 00:31:45.029
drove around in unmarked cars. Their job was

00:31:45.029 --> 00:31:46.930
to go out and find people who were using drugs

00:31:46.930 --> 00:31:49.509
under the influence of drugs, interview people

00:31:49.509 --> 00:31:52.690
in jail who had been arrested for drugs. Of course,

00:31:52.690 --> 00:31:54.970
their job was to find someone who would roll

00:31:54.970 --> 00:31:58.450
over and say, I'll introduce you to my dealer

00:31:58.450 --> 00:32:02.089
because I don't want to go to jail. The other

00:32:02.089 --> 00:32:04.910
team was the buy team. And the buy team, they

00:32:04.910 --> 00:32:09.450
were undercover. And depending on what type of

00:32:09.450 --> 00:32:12.250
drug they were buying, and by the way, not every

00:32:12.250 --> 00:32:16.309
undercover cop can buy every kind of drug. It's

00:32:16.309 --> 00:32:18.430
kind of interesting, but you get your little

00:32:18.430 --> 00:32:21.259
niches that you're good at. uh so they would

00:32:21.259 --> 00:32:25.380
dress appropriately and they would uh if if the

00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:29.859
street detail found someone who would turn informant

00:32:29.859 --> 00:32:33.220
then the bike team would take them and they'd

00:32:33.220 --> 00:32:36.420
go make buys and of course they'd try to work

00:32:36.420 --> 00:32:39.880
themselves up the chain when they got so far

00:32:39.880 --> 00:32:43.079
to where it was they they had the potential to

00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:46.339
really make a big buy like a pound of cocaine

00:32:46.339 --> 00:32:49.220
back then two pounds of cocaine sixty thousand

00:32:49.220 --> 00:32:52.470
dollars They would then come to the major violator

00:32:52.470 --> 00:32:59.170
team. We were all so undercover, looking skanky.

00:32:59.750 --> 00:33:05.109
But I only dealt with large major cases. And

00:33:05.109 --> 00:33:09.650
we started making headlines in the sense of the

00:33:09.650 --> 00:33:12.029
American news right off the bat. Headlines like,

00:33:12.109 --> 00:33:16.289
and I keep them all, $60 ,000 in cocaine seized,

00:33:16.569 --> 00:33:20.859
you know. I had boughten drugs and infiltrated

00:33:20.859 --> 00:33:23.380
the Nuestra Familia and exposed them as a major

00:33:23.380 --> 00:33:26.940
street gang headquartered in San Jose. You know,

00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:29.000
we'd have pictures in the, you've seen them,

00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:31.220
pictures in the newspaper with a table full of

00:33:31.220 --> 00:33:34.019
dope, guns, and money, and the chief of police

00:33:34.019 --> 00:33:36.000
standing back there, and the district attorney

00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:37.579
standing back there, and they're talking about

00:33:37.579 --> 00:33:40.440
the major dent they made in the drug narcotics,

00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:47.230
the network. And we narcotics officers, standing

00:33:47.230 --> 00:33:49.809
off to the side out of view of the cameras, a

00:33:49.809 --> 00:33:52.329
couple of us would glance at each other and smirk

00:33:52.329 --> 00:33:55.789
because we knew that by arresting drug dealers,

00:33:55.890 --> 00:33:58.269
all we were doing is creating a job opening.

00:34:01.049 --> 00:34:03.569
And when there's a job opening and there's a

00:34:03.569 --> 00:34:08.690
fight for it, there's violence. Guns, shooting,

00:34:08.969 --> 00:34:13.329
violence. Everyone wanted to be that next dealer

00:34:13.329 --> 00:34:19.269
that you just took out. Gang violence through

00:34:19.269 --> 00:34:22.789
the war on drugs really began to escalate about

00:34:22.789 --> 00:34:24.929
two or three years after we started the war on

00:34:24.929 --> 00:34:36.469
drugs. It really began to escalate. I had a fellow

00:34:36.469 --> 00:34:41.300
police officer, Ted, was working. The buy team.

00:34:41.380 --> 00:34:43.980
And he came to me one day and he says, hey, you

00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:46.119
know, you're going to buy methamphetamine, which,

00:34:46.179 --> 00:34:48.199
by the way, cocaine and methamphetamine were

00:34:48.199 --> 00:34:51.559
the two drugs that I was best at. He said, I

00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:54.460
got this gal and she says she can take us to

00:34:54.460 --> 00:35:01.519
a ounce and more dealer of methamphetamine. So

00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:03.199
I said, well, let's go talk to her. He had her

00:35:03.199 --> 00:35:06.840
in an interrogation room. So we go off the interrogation

00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:12.070
room and here's this. thin, skanky, needle marks

00:35:12.070 --> 00:35:16.789
all over her, pimples, unwashed hair. And I said,

00:35:16.849 --> 00:35:19.269
okay, who can you buy from? And she says, well,

00:35:19.369 --> 00:35:21.929
the reason she wanted to turn, by the way, was

00:35:21.929 --> 00:35:24.909
to keep her husband out of jail. Ted had bought

00:35:24.909 --> 00:35:27.650
drugs from him and he had been in prison before,

00:35:27.789 --> 00:35:31.510
so he was going away. So she wanted to turn evidence

00:35:31.510 --> 00:35:34.570
to keep him from going to prison and to keep

00:35:34.570 --> 00:35:38.840
him local. She started crying and bawling and

00:35:38.840 --> 00:35:40.760
all this and that. She says, well, do you know

00:35:40.760 --> 00:35:46.800
who Bill Perky is? Whoa, whoa. The hairs on the

00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:48.860
back of my neck stood up because Bill Perky was

00:35:48.860 --> 00:35:51.780
the vice president of the San Jose chapter of

00:35:51.780 --> 00:35:58.059
the Hells Angels. So, yes. So I ended up buying.

00:35:59.179 --> 00:36:01.960
She introduced me. I ended up buying drugs from

00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:07.170
Bill Perky, amphetamine. But then she introduced

00:36:07.170 --> 00:36:09.949
me to someone else, this guy named Thornton.

00:36:10.730 --> 00:36:14.750
Thornton was a Hell's Angel wannabe. He dealt

00:36:14.750 --> 00:36:19.469
a lot of their drugs. And so I came up with this

00:36:19.469 --> 00:36:24.070
idea. I'm going to flash some automatic handguns,

00:36:24.070 --> 00:36:26.090
which were just new, by the way. They were just

00:36:26.090 --> 00:36:28.630
coming out. Law enforcement hadn't even switched

00:36:28.630 --> 00:36:32.369
over to the 9mm automatics yet. But I checked

00:36:32.369 --> 00:36:35.210
two out of the armory. Took him over to his house.

00:36:35.250 --> 00:36:38.590
I flashed him. He went bonkers, being a typical

00:36:38.590 --> 00:36:40.889
meth head, running around like a chicken with

00:36:40.889 --> 00:36:43.909
his head off and flapping his arms. And oh, wow.

00:36:43.949 --> 00:36:46.449
And oh, wow. So, of course, he mentioned it to

00:36:46.449 --> 00:36:50.710
the Hells Angels that I could get him guns, which

00:36:50.710 --> 00:36:55.989
I said I could. And then in another fluke, I

00:36:55.989 --> 00:36:59.789
had met Dirty Doug Bontempi, a Hells Angel, through

00:36:59.789 --> 00:37:02.690
another case. So now Dirty Doug has seen me.

00:37:03.760 --> 00:37:08.900
While Bill Perky is seeing me, they start inviting

00:37:08.900 --> 00:37:12.460
me around. So now I'm what's called a hanger

00:37:12.460 --> 00:37:17.599
-on -er. And we'd ride the motorcycles over to

00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:21.380
a bar and hang out and drink and talk. And there

00:37:21.380 --> 00:37:24.719
would always be a – they never – as a group,

00:37:24.780 --> 00:37:27.280
I never saw them talk drugs or anything like

00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:32.219
that. They did want to buy guns. I also met Al

00:37:32.219 --> 00:37:38.059
Pizarro. Altamont Alpizarro. Altamont. Does that

00:37:38.059 --> 00:37:43.420
ring a bell? It does here in Florida. Altamont

00:37:43.420 --> 00:37:46.360
was in California, the Altamont Racetrack. The

00:37:46.360 --> 00:37:49.219
Rolling Stones did a big concert there in 69.

00:37:50.139 --> 00:37:56.739
And Hells Angels were hired to do security. And

00:37:56.739 --> 00:38:00.179
during the Rolling Stones concert, while Mick

00:38:00.179 --> 00:38:06.039
Jagger's up there on stage. Trying to be nice

00:38:06.039 --> 00:38:11.380
here. A guy made a bad decision and climbed up

00:38:11.380 --> 00:38:16.579
on the stage with a gun. And Pizarro stabbed

00:38:16.579 --> 00:38:20.400
him to death. So that was his nickname, Al Pizarro.

00:38:20.579 --> 00:38:22.780
He was found not guilty, by the way, a jury.

00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:25.699
They tried to try him for murder, but the jury

00:38:25.699 --> 00:38:28.940
saw the footage. The whole concert was being

00:38:28.940 --> 00:38:31.659
filmed. So you see this guy climbing up on stage

00:38:31.659 --> 00:38:36.320
with a gun. He was found not guilty. I met him.

00:38:39.260 --> 00:38:44.340
That case went on, I want to say, a couple of

00:38:44.340 --> 00:38:48.860
years. And by the time it was done, working with

00:38:48.860 --> 00:38:56.199
ATF and some DEA guys, we arrested 33 members

00:38:56.199 --> 00:39:02.039
of the Hells Angels. One big roundup. The federal

00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:05.519
attorneys wanted to do it as a RICO case, which

00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:07.739
is Racketeer to Influence Criminal Organization,

00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:12.539
which I was against because I, at least from

00:39:12.539 --> 00:39:15.659
my testimony, would be any evidence I had, I

00:39:15.659 --> 00:39:18.599
didn't see the Hells Angels as an organization

00:39:18.599 --> 00:39:22.840
committing any crimes. You had all these individuals.

00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:28.619
In my argument, let's try the individuals. Individually,

00:39:28.659 --> 00:39:31.940
convict them. And sends them. But trying to do

00:39:31.940 --> 00:39:33.960
the whole club, I didn't think that was going

00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:37.679
to work. And guess what? It didn't work. I had

00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:39.760
no way to tie individual crimes to the Hells

00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:44.079
Angels. Neither did any ATF agent. The Rico case

00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:49.719
fell apart. The jury hung. But every Hells Angel

00:39:49.719 --> 00:39:53.980
that I personally had a case against, Dirty Doug,

00:39:54.300 --> 00:39:58.300
Wild Bill, Altamont All, Sergey Walton, Jim Brandes.

00:39:58.780 --> 00:40:01.099
Jim Jim Brandes, they were all found guilty.

00:40:02.019 --> 00:40:06.599
So from my point of view, it was a very successful

00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:12.380
case. Think about working undercover, if we can

00:40:12.380 --> 00:40:14.400
go there for a minute. Working undercover, riding

00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:20.199
Harleys, drinking, on the job, talking the talk.

00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:24.619
They want you to walk like a duck, talk like

00:40:24.619 --> 00:40:27.940
a duck. act like a duck, and pretty soon you

00:40:27.940 --> 00:40:30.860
become a duck. You're hanging around with these

00:40:30.860 --> 00:40:33.239
guys, you're taught, you're swearing, you're

00:40:33.239 --> 00:40:36.400
drinking more than you normally drink, you're

00:40:36.400 --> 00:40:41.239
hanging out. The Journal of Police and Criminal

00:40:41.239 --> 00:40:44.679
Psychology did a qualitative study and found

00:40:44.679 --> 00:40:47.719
that the secrecy required in undercover assignments

00:40:47.719 --> 00:40:53.099
leads to high levels of stress. and difficulties

00:40:53.099 --> 00:40:58.460
in maintaining personal relationships. And bingo.

00:40:58.659 --> 00:41:02.659
Yeah. In the middle of all that, I got divorced.

00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:08.260
I'm coming home looking like hell, looking like

00:41:08.260 --> 00:41:11.260
a dirty biker who hasn't bathed in two weeks.

00:41:11.380 --> 00:41:15.440
I stink. I've been drinking. My language has

00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:22.489
been bringing that language home. Susan and I

00:41:22.489 --> 00:41:29.650
unfortunately divorced. I married again, Lucy

00:41:29.650 --> 00:41:34.530
Verunda, but I'm still working undercover, still

00:41:34.530 --> 00:41:40.010
living in a world of deceit, and was soon divorced

00:41:40.010 --> 00:41:44.190
again. You know, when I first came into law enforcement,

00:41:44.369 --> 00:41:49.360
I treated everyone with respect. until they prove

00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:53.159
themselves an asshole. And you reach a point

00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:55.980
in law enforcement, most cops do, after a few

00:41:55.980 --> 00:41:58.119
years, where pretty much you initially treat

00:41:58.119 --> 00:42:01.039
everyone as an asshole until they prove themselves

00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:08.159
worthy of respect. Pretty soon for me, I remember

00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:11.400
one night, I'm riding through Los Gatos on my

00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:15.119
Harley, coming home late at night, and I got

00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:18.369
stopped by a Los Gatos cop. And I remember thinking,

00:42:18.710 --> 00:42:23.050
what does this asshole want? I mean, even the

00:42:23.050 --> 00:42:32.630
cops have become assholes to me. I remember one

00:42:32.630 --> 00:42:35.409
night looking in the mirror. I was single then,

00:42:35.570 --> 00:42:38.969
second time. Single, looking in the mirror after

00:42:38.969 --> 00:42:43.969
all this. And I looked at myself in the mirror

00:42:43.969 --> 00:42:49.400
and I saw an asshole. The war on drugs was a

00:42:49.400 --> 00:42:51.760
failed policy. What I was doing was a failed

00:42:51.760 --> 00:43:00.480
policy. Didn't feel good about myself. Early

00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:02.760
in my tour at NARCO, if you go way back to the

00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:07.440
beginning, they put me TDY to the FBI for a few

00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:10.539
weeks. And I was running around, following up

00:43:10.539 --> 00:43:12.800
on leads throughout the whole Bay Area, looking

00:43:12.800 --> 00:43:15.610
for Patty Hearst. And I had studied her picture.

00:43:15.789 --> 00:43:18.710
I studied the pictures of all the guys who supposedly

00:43:18.710 --> 00:43:22.409
kidnapped her, she was running around with. So

00:43:22.409 --> 00:43:24.949
I'd ride around on the Harley, and I'd go up

00:43:24.949 --> 00:43:27.849
to the home where someone had reported that maybe

00:43:27.849 --> 00:43:31.489
she was at. And I'd knock on the door, and I'd

00:43:31.489 --> 00:43:33.849
say, hey, I'm looking for some girl, Sherry,

00:43:33.849 --> 00:43:38.369
who owes me money. Nothing ever came of that,

00:43:38.570 --> 00:43:42.190
other than it came to the attention of the FBI.

00:43:43.179 --> 00:43:45.699
They liked what I did. And then, of course, the

00:43:45.699 --> 00:43:48.280
Hells Angels case certainly brought my attention

00:43:48.280 --> 00:43:54.280
to the FBI. So in 1980, an FBI agent introduced

00:43:54.280 --> 00:43:57.739
me to a State Department intelligence officer

00:43:57.739 --> 00:44:03.679
by the name of Siegel. And he wanted me to fly

00:44:03.679 --> 00:44:06.219
helicopters in South America and gather intel

00:44:06.219 --> 00:44:09.840
on the Contra War, which was just beginning in

00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:12.940
Nicaragua. I didn't know much about it. But the

00:44:12.940 --> 00:44:16.599
Nicaragua war basically was the communists were

00:44:16.599 --> 00:44:19.360
taking over Nicaragua and the Contras were fighting,

00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:24.360
didn't want the communists in there. During President

00:44:24.360 --> 00:44:28.320
Carter's term, apparently he had really reduced

00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:34.440
intel capacity throughout all our agencies. And

00:44:34.440 --> 00:44:38.000
Reagan wanted us involved with the Contras. He

00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:43.699
wanted them to be funded. State Department, I

00:44:43.699 --> 00:44:45.360
guess it would be the State Department of Research

00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:47.699
and Intelligence wanted boots on the ground.

00:44:48.219 --> 00:44:54.739
And so I said, I'll do it. I want to do it. I

00:44:54.739 --> 00:44:56.340
like the idea of getting back in helicopter.

00:44:56.400 --> 00:45:00.280
I like the idea of a bigger picture, fighting

00:45:00.280 --> 00:45:03.519
communism down in Central America, much closer

00:45:03.519 --> 00:45:10.599
to home. I started going down there. I was considered

00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:16.960
a not, by the way, non -official cover. So I

00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:20.760
had no ties to anything. It was really important.

00:45:22.179 --> 00:45:24.760
Well, I'll get in that in a minute, but back

00:45:24.760 --> 00:45:27.559
up here. Congress had passed the Boland Agreement,

00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:32.900
Amendment, I'm sorry, which cut off all the funds

00:45:32.900 --> 00:45:35.000
for the Reagan administration to the Contras.

00:45:37.099 --> 00:45:40.960
But Reagan wanted to support the Contras. So

00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:44.099
the CIA, along with all the North Gang, secretly

00:45:44.099 --> 00:45:47.679
started funding the Contras. They were selling,

00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:50.940
against the international law, they were selling

00:45:50.940 --> 00:45:55.019
major missiles to Iran, then using that money

00:45:55.019 --> 00:45:59.840
to support the Contras in their fight against

00:45:59.840 --> 00:46:03.159
the Sandinistas. And of course, what I wasn't

00:46:03.159 --> 00:46:08.849
told... Being a contract, I was a contract employee.

00:46:09.789 --> 00:46:13.969
And in intelligence, it's very narrow. Your window

00:46:13.969 --> 00:46:16.210
of what you get to know or what you're told is

00:46:16.210 --> 00:46:23.969
very narrow. So I didn't really know. But apparently

00:46:23.969 --> 00:46:26.710
the CIA was not communicating with the State

00:46:26.710 --> 00:46:30.429
Department. The State Department wanted to know

00:46:30.429 --> 00:46:32.889
where all these small arms were coming from.

00:46:32.929 --> 00:46:35.190
Apparently the contractors were getting... AK

00:46:35.190 --> 00:46:38.329
-47s, they were getting grenades, they were getting

00:46:38.329 --> 00:46:42.150
handguns. Where were these coming from? So the

00:46:42.150 --> 00:46:44.769
State Department wanted to know, they wanted

00:46:44.769 --> 00:46:47.309
to find out how the weapons were being smuggled

00:46:47.309 --> 00:46:50.750
in Central America. And if you want to know that,

00:46:50.989 --> 00:46:55.050
then you follow the established drug smuggling

00:46:55.050 --> 00:46:59.050
routes. And I guess that's where they thought

00:46:59.050 --> 00:47:02.230
I could come in and be of assistance to them.

00:47:04.039 --> 00:47:07.260
I sailed down to Costa Rica nonstop, San Francisco

00:47:07.260 --> 00:47:11.440
to Costa Rica, three weeks at sea. This was before

00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:14.079
GPS, by the way, so I'm basically navigating

00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:17.619
with a sextant, not much more than what Columbus

00:47:17.619 --> 00:47:22.619
had. And showed up in Costa Rica as a boat bum,

00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:26.619
a prior Army helicopter pilot, a former cop.

00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:31.800
Every bit of my story had to be true. except

00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:34.940
for the one item of talking to Siegel. Every

00:47:34.940 --> 00:47:37.280
bit had to be true because the guys I was going

00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:40.599
to be infiltrating down there had the ability

00:47:40.599 --> 00:47:44.400
to check out my background thoroughly, completely.

00:47:46.039 --> 00:47:48.880
Not like infiltrating the Hells Angels. These

00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:57.000
guys had the means. I did some familiarity flights

00:47:57.000 --> 00:48:01.500
in the helicopter. Never did any missions at

00:48:01.500 --> 00:48:04.260
all. Flew fixed wing all over the country, though.

00:48:04.420 --> 00:48:07.099
I traveled around northern Costa Rica on the

00:48:07.099 --> 00:48:11.539
ground. I met Bill Crone, John Hull, Bruce Jones.

00:48:11.880 --> 00:48:16.480
All these guys are CIA operatives. Admit it.

00:48:16.500 --> 00:48:19.400
I mean, they said they were contract employees

00:48:19.400 --> 00:48:22.380
for the CIA. John Hull is very well known. You

00:48:22.380 --> 00:48:26.639
can Google him. and his background with the CIA

00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:29.519
down during the Iran -Contra thing in Costa Rica.

00:48:31.300 --> 00:48:34.840
I met and hung around with a lot of Cuban operatives,

00:48:35.059 --> 00:48:40.460
guys who were working for Felix Rodriguez, also

00:48:40.460 --> 00:48:44.139
known as Alex Gomez. He was Bay of Pigs. He was

00:48:44.139 --> 00:48:47.659
the one who captured Che Guevara. He had flown

00:48:47.659 --> 00:48:50.840
missions in Vietnam. He joined the army and became

00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:53.280
a helicopter pilot and flew. This guy was something

00:48:53.280 --> 00:49:01.420
else. These Cubans, they were tough guys. They

00:49:01.420 --> 00:49:03.559
would not have tolerated what I was attempting

00:49:03.559 --> 00:49:08.280
to find out if they knew. The Cubans arranged

00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:11.639
a Costa Rican business visa for me, so it was

00:49:11.639 --> 00:49:13.960
real easy for me to come and go from Costa Rica.

00:49:14.440 --> 00:49:16.619
anytime I wanted to because of the type of visa

00:49:16.619 --> 00:49:20.880
I had. Over the next several years, back and

00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:25.280
forth, Honduras, the airport at Il Pongo, El

00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:30.639
Salvador, of course, Costa Rica. I ran into pilots

00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:35.860
who were flashing DEA credentials or CIA credentials,

00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:39.019
claiming they were flying food and weapons to

00:49:39.019 --> 00:49:44.150
the Contras. And then They would talk about flying

00:49:44.150 --> 00:49:47.650
drugs back to the U .S. into Maine, Arkansas,

00:49:47.909 --> 00:49:51.730
and Florida. A good example of that, by the way,

00:49:51.750 --> 00:49:53.389
if you haven't watched it, the movie American

00:49:53.389 --> 00:49:57.949
Made, the movie about Barry Seals, who was the

00:49:57.949 --> 00:50:05.250
pilot who got caught. He was doing that, flying

00:50:05.250 --> 00:50:07.610
supplies one way, flying drugs the other way.

00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:12.260
I always thought those were false credentials

00:50:12.260 --> 00:50:15.519
that were being flashed to me. I suspect that

00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:19.159
they may have been contract employees like I

00:50:19.159 --> 00:50:26.840
was, but they weren't employees with IDs. I told

00:50:26.840 --> 00:50:30.320
Siegel about this, the drug smuggling and all

00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:33.940
the evidence that I built up on these guys. And

00:50:33.940 --> 00:50:38.449
he says, no, he says, you're not a cop. We're

00:50:38.449 --> 00:50:41.070
not interested in that. We want to know where

00:50:41.070 --> 00:50:45.429
the guns are coming from. So running around northern

00:50:45.429 --> 00:50:48.690
Costa Rica border with Bruce Jones. In fact,

00:50:48.750 --> 00:50:54.670
in Life Magazine, February 85 issue of Life Magazine,

00:50:54.869 --> 00:50:58.530
there's a whole article on Bruce Jones and his

00:50:58.530 --> 00:51:00.769
running around on the border there. So I was

00:51:00.769 --> 00:51:04.010
running around with him. And one day we're with

00:51:04.010 --> 00:51:09.449
this ragtag so -called army of Contras. They

00:51:09.449 --> 00:51:12.230
look like a joke to me. I couldn't believe that

00:51:12.230 --> 00:51:16.150
this was a CIA operation. But I saw these crates

00:51:16.150 --> 00:51:21.130
of AK -47s. And on the markings on the crate

00:51:21.130 --> 00:51:28.449
were, I guessed, were Arabic. And so I busted

00:51:28.449 --> 00:51:32.389
up one crate. I told Bruce that, hey, I need

00:51:32.389 --> 00:51:34.889
this crate. I'm going to... In fact, his wife

00:51:34.889 --> 00:51:37.230
had given me a rug. I said, I want to... pack

00:51:37.230 --> 00:51:40.750
that rug up and ship it home. He never thought

00:51:40.750 --> 00:51:44.030
anything of it. So I packed that crate up, but

00:51:44.030 --> 00:51:47.530
I put the crate busted up in my luggage, flew

00:51:47.530 --> 00:51:49.610
it home, and one of my meetings with Siegel,

00:51:49.730 --> 00:51:55.110
I turned it over to him. And he, very pleasantly

00:51:55.110 --> 00:51:57.829
surprised, apparently I hit the nail on the head

00:51:57.829 --> 00:52:01.590
for what he was looking for. Those weapons turned

00:52:01.590 --> 00:52:04.429
out to be part of Ollie Norris' operation called

00:52:04.429 --> 00:52:10.730
Tipped Kettle. And that was an operation. In

00:52:10.730 --> 00:52:14.469
1983, they transferred, Israel transferred the

00:52:14.469 --> 00:52:19.849
Contras 300 metric tons of weapons and ammunition.

00:52:22.210 --> 00:52:29.969
They did it again in 84, 100 containers full.

00:52:32.329 --> 00:52:35.510
$30 to $40 million worth of guns donated by the

00:52:35.510 --> 00:52:38.769
Israels in return. Now, what Israel wanted was

00:52:38.769 --> 00:52:41.570
increased military assistance in what they were

00:52:41.570 --> 00:52:46.150
doing in fighting the Arabs. So all this underhanded

00:52:46.150 --> 00:52:51.969
stuff going on. CIA is not telling the State

00:52:51.969 --> 00:52:54.449
Department what it's doing. CIA is not telling

00:52:54.449 --> 00:52:58.030
the CIA what it's doing. We had a bombing in

00:52:58.030 --> 00:53:01.289
Costa Rica in 1984, and it was an attempt on

00:53:01.289 --> 00:53:06.909
leader. Pastora. And after that happened, Siegel

00:53:06.909 --> 00:53:11.030
said, you need to get out. You've done your job.

00:53:11.670 --> 00:53:15.329
Shit's going to hit the fan was his words. So

00:53:15.329 --> 00:53:18.710
he wanted me to disappear. He wanted me to be

00:53:18.710 --> 00:53:21.949
unable to be contacted by the news media and

00:53:21.949 --> 00:53:25.010
by politicians who are looking to discredit the

00:53:25.010 --> 00:53:27.820
Reagan administration. So with a girlfriend,

00:53:27.960 --> 00:53:30.019
I sailed from San Francisco, a different boat

00:53:30.019 --> 00:53:31.920
now, sailed from San Francisco to the Sea of

00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:35.519
Cortez. So we lived 85 through the winter, through

00:53:35.519 --> 00:53:38.880
the spring of 86 in the Sea of Cortez, Mexico,

00:53:39.099 --> 00:53:43.280
just hanging out, staying away from everybody.

00:53:43.380 --> 00:53:45.840
I wasn't contacting anybody. What a great life.

00:53:47.940 --> 00:53:51.820
After a while, that got old. I went up to Northern

00:53:51.820 --> 00:53:55.280
California where I bought a little ranch. hung

00:53:55.280 --> 00:53:58.380
out there for a while, but you know, wasn't hearing

00:53:58.380 --> 00:54:01.659
from anybody, staying away from friends and family.

00:54:04.539 --> 00:54:08.699
Then, so I started going back to San Jose, but

00:54:08.699 --> 00:54:12.400
that's when CIA operative Hassan Fuss got shot

00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:16.119
down. Now, Hassan Fuss was a crew member on these

00:54:16.119 --> 00:54:19.699
planes flying food and supplies into the countries.

00:54:20.750 --> 00:54:22.849
Well, I don't know what Hassan Fuss was flying

00:54:22.849 --> 00:54:27.250
back, but he was shot down. He was caught by

00:54:27.250 --> 00:54:32.170
the communists. He was captured. That hit the

00:54:32.170 --> 00:54:36.329
news and shit hit the fan, so to speak, because

00:54:36.329 --> 00:54:38.750
the whole Reagan thing, the whole Ali North thing,

00:54:38.969 --> 00:54:43.429
everything's exposed. The Cristic Institute started

00:54:43.429 --> 00:54:46.989
looking for me. Most people don't know who the

00:54:46.989 --> 00:54:49.429
Cristic Institute was. It was a public interest

00:54:49.429 --> 00:54:53.150
law firm. And they had represented the cases

00:54:53.150 --> 00:54:58.989
in Silkwood involving Three Mile Island, health

00:54:58.989 --> 00:55:01.329
issues dealing with nuclear facilities. But for

00:55:01.329 --> 00:55:05.170
some reason, they were really interested in nailing

00:55:05.170 --> 00:55:07.530
the CIA and the Reagan administration on this

00:55:07.530 --> 00:55:11.949
whole Iran -Contra thing. Office of Maxine Waters

00:55:11.949 --> 00:55:15.909
was after me. Some guy from her office was trying

00:55:15.909 --> 00:55:18.610
to track me down, leaving messages, trying to

00:55:18.610 --> 00:55:25.559
call. Gary Webb was a reporter who wrote a book

00:55:25.559 --> 00:55:29.699
called Dark Alliance. And in that book stirred

00:55:29.699 --> 00:55:32.960
a lot of controversy because he suggested that

00:55:32.960 --> 00:55:36.420
the CIA was aware of drug trafficking by its

00:55:36.420 --> 00:55:43.440
contract employees. So in 87, I testified at

00:55:43.440 --> 00:55:46.440
a closed -door hearing before a Senate subcommittee.

00:55:49.119 --> 00:55:51.760
Interesting, one side of that table only wanted

00:55:51.760 --> 00:55:54.860
to know about government assets running drugs,

00:55:55.179 --> 00:55:58.699
which I testified I had no direct knowledge of.

00:56:01.039 --> 00:56:03.619
They were looking for intel to discredit the

00:56:03.619 --> 00:56:06.599
Reagan administration. No one wanted to ask questions

00:56:06.599 --> 00:56:09.460
about Israel's involvement. I guess politically,

00:56:09.719 --> 00:56:12.920
it was a sensitive topic for both sides of the

00:56:12.920 --> 00:56:18.769
aisle. 88 State Department set me up with the

00:56:18.769 --> 00:56:21.969
Office of International Criminal Justice, University

00:56:21.969 --> 00:56:26.610
of Illinois. And they had established a program

00:56:26.610 --> 00:56:29.250
with the Soviet Ministry of Interior so law enforcement

00:56:29.250 --> 00:56:32.789
could go over there and exchange ideas and visit

00:56:32.789 --> 00:56:35.489
and kind of work with Soviet law enforcement.

00:56:35.869 --> 00:56:41.269
So I, official cover, of course, under that program

00:56:41.269 --> 00:56:45.780
that the Soviet Union had set up. I work with

00:56:45.780 --> 00:56:50.159
Soviet narcotics officers all over Russia, Leningrad,

00:56:50.380 --> 00:56:53.940
Moscow, Ukraine, the border of Turkey. Now, remember,

00:56:54.480 --> 00:56:56.719
this was before the fall of the Iron Curtain.

00:56:56.840 --> 00:57:02.940
This was still the Soviet Union. What I saw was

00:57:02.940 --> 00:57:06.900
a low economic status for all citizens over there.

00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:14.860
It was a poor, broken country. An example. They

00:57:14.860 --> 00:57:17.420
wanted to show me Gump's department store. I

00:57:17.420 --> 00:57:20.699
think it was called Gump's. And there was a long

00:57:20.699 --> 00:57:22.599
line of people waiting. It's a big department

00:57:22.599 --> 00:57:25.199
store, like we would see a Macy's or something.

00:57:25.460 --> 00:57:29.119
But there was a big line to get in. And so they

00:57:29.119 --> 00:57:30.960
said, oh, we're not going to get in. Too big

00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:34.219
a line. So one of the guys, though, one of the

00:57:34.219 --> 00:57:37.960
Soviet police officers, everyone was playing

00:57:37.960 --> 00:57:42.079
close, jumped out, ran up to find out what was

00:57:42.079 --> 00:57:49.980
going on in the... in the store. Excuse me there.

00:57:51.360 --> 00:57:53.679
He came back and said, everyone's in line. The

00:57:53.679 --> 00:57:56.800
store has shoes. That's all it has today, shoes.

00:57:57.619 --> 00:58:00.619
And everyone's buying shoes. And I noticed a

00:58:00.619 --> 00:58:02.880
big crowd of people off to the side where people

00:58:02.880 --> 00:58:04.539
would come out of the store and join that crowd.

00:58:05.380 --> 00:58:07.679
And they explained to me, you go into the store.

00:58:07.800 --> 00:58:10.079
Once you get in line, you go into the store.

00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:13.039
you go to the counter you buy a pair of shoes

00:58:13.039 --> 00:58:17.300
they give you a pair of shoes regardless of what

00:58:17.300 --> 00:58:20.900
size you wore then you went outside of the crowd

00:58:20.900 --> 00:58:23.119
and you start changing and bidding to trying

00:58:23.119 --> 00:58:26.739
to find someone who had a pair size you wanted

00:58:26.739 --> 00:58:32.519
and it was a ridiculous system it was falling

00:58:32.519 --> 00:58:37.739
apart police the police officers We went to drug

00:58:37.739 --> 00:58:40.039
-related crimes. I mean, I would say, okay, come

00:58:40.039 --> 00:58:42.860
on, guys, you know, let's do something. Let's

00:58:42.860 --> 00:58:46.260
go to, let's do some police work. And so I kind

00:58:46.260 --> 00:58:48.340
of, all they wanted to do was eat and drink.

00:58:48.500 --> 00:58:51.179
But I said, you know, we went to a meth lab.

00:58:51.360 --> 00:58:53.619
And as soon as they looked, meth lab, yeah, we

00:58:53.619 --> 00:58:56.219
know where one's at. I'm like, well, come on,

00:58:56.280 --> 00:58:59.679
let's go see a meth lab. So we raided meth labs.

00:58:59.719 --> 00:59:02.099
We visited drug rehab programs. We went to the

00:59:02.099 --> 00:59:06.179
scene of drug violent crimes. But none of the

00:59:06.179 --> 00:59:08.539
police officers, whether it be uniform or the

00:59:08.539 --> 00:59:12.059
detectives, wanted to make an arrest. And their

00:59:12.059 --> 00:59:14.679
supervisors didn't get involved. The attitude

00:59:14.679 --> 00:59:18.300
over there was we pretend to work and they pretend

00:59:18.300 --> 00:59:23.579
to pay us. And I just saw, I didn't know it at

00:59:23.579 --> 00:59:26.179
the time. I had no idea that we were months away

00:59:26.179 --> 00:59:32.570
from the wall falling. But I could see why. I

00:59:32.570 --> 00:59:36.090
came home from the Soviet Union, though. I came

00:59:36.090 --> 00:59:41.409
home from behind the Iron Curtain. If the Soviet

00:59:41.409 --> 00:59:45.750
Union cannot control illegal drugs, then how

00:59:45.750 --> 00:59:51.050
are we in the U .S. living in freedom ever going

00:59:51.050 --> 01:00:01.519
to solve the war on drugs? In 89... Again, through

01:00:01.519 --> 01:00:03.400
the Office of International Criminal Justice,

01:00:03.559 --> 01:00:06.320
the State Department sent me to China, Beijing,

01:00:06.780 --> 01:00:11.000
Shanghai, Chengdu, Tibet, which is a great place

01:00:11.000 --> 01:00:16.199
if you ever get a chance to go. It's not a tourist

01:00:16.199 --> 01:00:19.019
spot. There's no five -star hotels. It's a great

01:00:19.019 --> 01:00:24.449
place to visit. The State Department wanted boots

01:00:24.449 --> 01:00:27.190
on the ground to observe not only the drug problem

01:00:27.190 --> 01:00:30.070
in China, but they wanted visual confirmation

01:00:30.070 --> 01:00:36.889
of Chinese troops in Tibet. This was at a time

01:00:36.889 --> 01:00:40.530
China was pretty much denying that they had troops

01:00:40.530 --> 01:00:45.130
in Tibet. So, yeah, I was able to track down

01:00:45.130 --> 01:00:48.449
troops, take pictures of them, you know, the

01:00:48.449 --> 01:00:53.599
old secret stuff, hide the film. But on the drug

01:00:53.599 --> 01:00:58.260
issue in the big cities, I would talk to businessmen

01:00:58.260 --> 01:01:03.280
and they'd say, yeah, there's guys who use cocaine

01:01:03.280 --> 01:01:05.920
and amphetamines on the job to stay awake, long

01:01:05.920 --> 01:01:08.360
hours of business, stuff like that. But on the

01:01:08.360 --> 01:01:13.940
streets, I saw no evidence of drug use or drug

01:01:13.940 --> 01:01:21.179
abuse in China. None. China does not condone

01:01:21.179 --> 01:01:25.280
criminal behavior, period. And crime is dealt

01:01:25.280 --> 01:01:29.239
harshly. Drug trafficking carries a death sentence.

01:01:29.400 --> 01:01:32.760
While I was over there, they invited me to an

01:01:32.760 --> 01:01:35.900
execution of some drug dealers. And no, I didn't

01:01:35.900 --> 01:01:40.659
need to see that. An interesting side note here,

01:01:40.699 --> 01:01:44.340
China's prisons kind of run like the military.

01:01:45.300 --> 01:01:50.420
Everyone is up early. You go to breakfast. Everyone

01:01:50.420 --> 01:01:53.199
works at the company. By the way, every prison

01:01:53.199 --> 01:01:57.420
in China is a company. China, the government,

01:01:57.500 --> 01:02:01.179
does not give any money to a prison. The prison

01:02:01.179 --> 01:02:08.039
warden is really running a company. And in Chengdu,

01:02:08.179 --> 01:02:12.239
the prison I went to had a 12 -foot wall with

01:02:12.239 --> 01:02:14.360
a single strand of barbed wire on top, and that

01:02:14.360 --> 01:02:18.840
was it. Could have easily escaped. The problem

01:02:18.840 --> 01:02:20.579
with China is the way they control everything.

01:02:20.699 --> 01:02:22.739
You can't just show up somewhere and start living.

01:02:22.880 --> 01:02:26.099
It would be hard to be on the run in China. And

01:02:26.099 --> 01:02:28.139
the third offense, of course, trying to escape

01:02:28.139 --> 01:02:32.099
from prison is a death penalty. So everyone works.

01:02:32.340 --> 01:02:35.880
Everyone works. At lunchtime, they played recreational

01:02:35.880 --> 01:02:42.440
games like softball. Then back to work, they'd

01:02:42.440 --> 01:02:46.300
have dinner together. Everyone went to classes

01:02:46.300 --> 01:02:50.760
in the evening. Everyone. And when I asked about

01:02:50.760 --> 01:02:53.480
what kind of classes, the answer I got in the

01:02:53.480 --> 01:02:56.780
broken translation, but basically civics, how

01:02:56.780 --> 01:03:00.360
Chinese government works, how your officials

01:03:00.360 --> 01:03:02.880
become officials, how laws are made, why you

01:03:02.880 --> 01:03:06.900
need to obey the law, why we do this, just basic

01:03:06.900 --> 01:03:13.420
civics. There was no hanging around the yard,

01:03:13.579 --> 01:03:16.039
no lifting weights, no reading in the library,

01:03:16.179 --> 01:03:21.360
no playing cards. Everybody worked. And the success

01:03:21.360 --> 01:03:24.820
of that company where they were working depended

01:03:24.820 --> 01:03:28.679
on the quality of the food they ate, the clothes

01:03:28.679 --> 01:03:33.139
they wore. It was an interesting, I like that

01:03:33.139 --> 01:03:37.480
concept. You know, I can already hear people

01:03:37.480 --> 01:03:39.599
saying, oh, that's prison labor, you know, slave

01:03:39.599 --> 01:03:43.519
labor. Well, I don't know. You committed a crime.

01:03:43.739 --> 01:03:48.039
You're paying for that crime. I don't understand

01:03:48.039 --> 01:03:53.179
what the big deal is. Go to work. So law enforcement

01:03:53.179 --> 01:03:55.239
is serving honorably in the war on drugs. All

01:03:55.239 --> 01:04:01.019
our law enforcement officers, local, state, DEA.

01:04:02.760 --> 01:04:06.460
I think it's a failed policy, though. Drugs today

01:04:06.460 --> 01:04:08.880
are cheaper. They're more available, they're

01:04:08.880 --> 01:04:11.079
stronger, more lethal than they were when the

01:04:11.079 --> 01:04:17.460
war on drugs was declared in 71. In today's environment,

01:04:17.719 --> 01:04:20.400
besides the normal trauma, you know, police,

01:04:20.719 --> 01:04:24.019
firefighters, military soldiers, they live with

01:04:24.019 --> 01:04:26.780
an additional stress caused by their superiors

01:04:26.780 --> 01:04:29.199
who throw them under the bus for political reasons.

01:04:32.619 --> 01:04:35.760
I mean, we could bring up, not to get into politics,

01:04:35.900 --> 01:04:38.760
but we could bring up... What happened with politicians

01:04:38.760 --> 01:04:42.300
and chiefs of police in Minneapolis, recently

01:04:42.300 --> 01:04:45.440
carrying bass in LA in the conflict with the

01:04:45.440 --> 01:04:52.460
firefighters there. I picture the loved ones

01:04:52.460 --> 01:04:55.179
of people who died during prohibition, alcohol

01:04:55.179 --> 01:04:57.840
prohibition. People who died either because of

01:04:57.840 --> 01:05:00.260
the bad booze, they were forced to drink if they

01:05:00.260 --> 01:05:02.119
were going to drink booze. They died because

01:05:02.119 --> 01:05:07.050
of the violence. I picture them hugging each

01:05:07.050 --> 01:05:09.610
other back then when prohibition was lifted and

01:05:09.610 --> 01:05:13.690
saying, why? Why did we have alcohol prohibition

01:05:13.690 --> 01:05:19.170
to begin with? And after Vietnam, loved ones

01:05:19.170 --> 01:05:22.090
of those who were killed or wounded, when that

01:05:22.090 --> 01:05:26.889
war was over, had to ask why. Hold each other

01:05:26.889 --> 01:05:29.190
and say, why? Why did we have that war to begin

01:05:29.190 --> 01:05:32.130
with? Especially now that we know that they knew

01:05:32.130 --> 01:05:38.570
it was a failed policy. Someday I expect that

01:05:38.570 --> 01:05:40.809
the loved ones of those who've died in the war

01:05:40.809 --> 01:05:45.170
on drugs, not only the drug addicts, but police

01:05:45.170 --> 01:05:48.750
officers killed and raids have gone wrong and

01:05:48.750 --> 01:05:52.530
shootings, civilians, as I said, they're going

01:05:52.530 --> 01:05:56.110
to hold each other and say, why? Why did we have

01:05:56.110 --> 01:06:03.090
this war on drugs? And the stress, not only they,

01:06:03.269 --> 01:06:10.480
not only that. soldiers, police officers, firemen.

01:06:14.480 --> 01:06:16.820
How do you live with that stress? How do you

01:06:16.820 --> 01:06:29.619
deal with it? I became active in the drug courts.

01:06:30.849 --> 01:06:33.110
When I was all done with the State Department

01:06:33.110 --> 01:06:35.150
and all that, I became pretty active in drug

01:06:35.150 --> 01:06:44.489
courts and developed a 13 -week program. And

01:06:44.489 --> 01:06:47.090
it came more from a cognitive point of view than,

01:06:47.110 --> 01:06:50.929
say, an AA. In fact, I got a lot of static from

01:06:50.929 --> 01:06:55.329
AA, a lot of static from my program. But, you

01:06:55.329 --> 01:06:57.769
know, I come from the point of view, what if

01:06:57.769 --> 01:07:02.269
one thought? could make your day or if one thought

01:07:02.269 --> 01:07:06.010
could make your week? How about if one thought

01:07:06.010 --> 01:07:08.750
could forever transform the quality of your life?

01:07:09.809 --> 01:07:14.750
Because what does stress do? It keeps us from

01:07:14.750 --> 01:07:21.590
being happy. And that's what we want. Most people

01:07:21.590 --> 01:07:25.610
think that their life results from their circumstances,

01:07:25.690 --> 01:07:32.380
what's happened to them. Sadly, this is true

01:07:32.380 --> 01:07:37.719
for most people. My life is this because of that

01:07:37.719 --> 01:07:41.420
and this because of that. I believe that if we

01:07:41.420 --> 01:07:47.280
could know intellectually, but also experientially,

01:07:47.360 --> 01:07:50.340
that we are the creators of our realities, transform

01:07:50.340 --> 01:07:55.059
the quality of our life. As I said, happiness,

01:07:55.340 --> 01:07:58.159
stress and trauma get in the way of happiness.

01:07:58.699 --> 01:08:02.880
Aristotle wrote over, what, 2 ,300 years ago,

01:08:03.139 --> 01:08:06.440
2 ,400 years ago? Aristotle wrote that happiness

01:08:06.440 --> 01:08:12.400
is the ultimate purpose of human existence. Happiness

01:08:12.400 --> 01:08:15.880
is the only thing we desire for its own sake.

01:08:15.940 --> 01:08:19.439
In other words, the objective of happiness is

01:08:19.439 --> 01:08:26.760
happiness. How do we define happiness? We know

01:08:26.760 --> 01:08:29.609
it when we feel it. Joseph Campbell described

01:08:29.609 --> 01:08:32.670
happiness as feeling the rapture of being alive.

01:08:33.829 --> 01:08:37.970
But how do we achieve lasting happiness, especially

01:08:37.970 --> 01:08:40.350
when we've been through the stress and trauma

01:08:40.350 --> 01:08:43.590
that our jobs as military men, firefighters,

01:08:44.010 --> 01:08:49.970
and police officers have had? We don't even know

01:08:49.970 --> 01:08:51.930
who we are. We ask people who they are, and they

01:08:51.930 --> 01:08:54.930
give us their business card. Or today, they refer

01:08:54.930 --> 01:09:03.789
us to their Facebook page. We do not find happiness.

01:09:03.789 --> 01:09:07.649
We think it's where we live, it's the job I have.

01:09:07.829 --> 01:09:09.789
You know, I ask someone who they are, well, I

01:09:09.789 --> 01:09:14.750
got this job on the police force, or I'm a fireman

01:09:14.750 --> 01:09:20.470
for this county. They think their happiness depends

01:09:20.470 --> 01:09:25.189
on their position, where they live. I have this

01:09:25.189 --> 01:09:29.279
home in this neighborhood. I have this job. And

01:09:29.279 --> 01:09:31.340
I'm happy, but that of course doesn't last very

01:09:31.340 --> 01:09:34.800
long because pretty soon it's, you get settled

01:09:34.800 --> 01:09:37.500
into that, that group of friends, that job, and

01:09:37.500 --> 01:09:40.399
pretty soon, well, if I could just get that promotion

01:09:40.399 --> 01:09:45.380
to captain, you know, if I could just get that

01:09:45.380 --> 01:09:48.619
promotion, I'd get enough money and I could live

01:09:48.619 --> 01:09:54.199
in that neighborhood. That'll make me happy.

01:09:54.800 --> 01:09:58.060
So we think happiness is having goals of having

01:09:58.060 --> 01:10:04.520
and doing. Not it. We're all in search for happiness.

01:10:04.619 --> 01:10:08.560
We would like to forget. We're anxious, worried,

01:10:08.699 --> 01:10:12.199
angry, frustrated, depressed, hankering, unhappy,

01:10:12.520 --> 01:10:15.579
and we'd like to forget those stressful and traumatic

01:10:15.579 --> 01:10:23.850
moments. You know, we grow up with this. The

01:10:23.850 --> 01:10:28.729
advertisements on TV, on the newspaper, and now

01:10:28.729 --> 01:10:31.470
on the internet, that there is a substance out

01:10:31.470 --> 01:10:34.949
there we can take that'll make us feel better,

01:10:35.069 --> 01:10:37.390
make us happy. You look at the advertisements

01:10:37.390 --> 01:10:39.949
on TV trying to get you to ask your doctor about

01:10:39.949 --> 01:10:43.449
this drug, and everybody seems so happy. Kids

01:10:43.449 --> 01:10:45.970
grow up seeing this, by the way. They see, hey,

01:10:46.130 --> 01:10:49.569
there's something I can take that'll make me

01:10:49.569 --> 01:10:53.710
feel better. Of course, we can go to a therapist.

01:10:55.369 --> 01:10:58.550
Out of all the diagnosis, they'll certainly find

01:10:58.550 --> 01:11:03.229
something that ails you. Neurodevelopment disorders,

01:11:03.630 --> 01:11:05.909
psychotic disorders, dissociative disorders,

01:11:06.329 --> 01:11:12.750
gender dysphoria, personality disorders. I think,

01:11:12.750 --> 01:11:16.810
though, when we start looking at therapy, the

01:11:16.810 --> 01:11:20.090
therapist relies on our memory of behaviors.

01:11:21.130 --> 01:11:23.329
and our memory of events that are getting in

01:11:23.329 --> 01:11:25.909
our way of happiness. So the therapist is relying

01:11:25.909 --> 01:11:29.529
on our memory of the trauma, you know, the stress

01:11:29.529 --> 01:11:35.550
that's getting in our way. See, the problem is

01:11:35.550 --> 01:11:40.050
we cannot describe what is happening because

01:11:40.050 --> 01:11:41.909
it's already happened once you try to describe

01:11:41.909 --> 01:11:45.130
it. You can't even describe what happened in

01:11:45.130 --> 01:11:49.449
your life. You can only express your memory.

01:11:50.470 --> 01:11:52.970
You can only express your memory of what happened.

01:11:53.529 --> 01:11:56.470
And our memory of what happened is not the same

01:11:56.470 --> 01:12:00.430
as what happened. We all remember the gist of

01:12:00.430 --> 01:12:06.069
an event. We forget some details. We'll fill

01:12:06.069 --> 01:12:10.430
in those details with commonly held beliefs based

01:12:10.430 --> 01:12:14.010
on other experiences. We forget a particular

01:12:14.010 --> 01:12:16.649
detail for the simple fact that we need to be

01:12:16.649 --> 01:12:20.680
right. But our memories are chock full. of errors.

01:12:21.220 --> 01:12:27.039
When I was teaching law enforcement report writing

01:12:27.039 --> 01:12:30.920
classes, at the beginning of the class, at the

01:12:30.920 --> 01:12:33.939
very first session of the class, we'd be going

01:12:33.939 --> 01:12:37.220
through some of the basic classroom requirements

01:12:37.220 --> 01:12:39.420
and stuff like that. But I would arrange for

01:12:39.420 --> 01:12:41.920
a couple to burst into the classroom up front,

01:12:42.100 --> 01:12:44.819
arguing and fighting, and one pushed the other

01:12:44.819 --> 01:12:47.340
one. And then they were supposed to act surprised

01:12:47.340 --> 01:12:49.000
like, whoops, we didn't know there were people

01:12:49.000 --> 01:12:53.199
in this class. And they would leave. And I'd

01:12:53.199 --> 01:12:54.819
say something like, what the heck was that about?

01:12:54.979 --> 01:12:57.479
I'd look out the end of the hallway and they're

01:12:57.479 --> 01:13:00.800
gone. So I'd go back to my class. The last 10

01:13:00.800 --> 01:13:02.659
minutes of that class, though, I'd go pull out

01:13:02.659 --> 01:13:05.600
a piece of paper. You witnessed an event. Write

01:13:05.600 --> 01:13:12.140
it down. You just witnessed a crime. Write what

01:13:12.140 --> 01:13:21.069
happened. And it's amazing how different those

01:13:21.069 --> 01:13:29.189
memories were. They all saw the same event, but

01:13:29.189 --> 01:13:31.529
their memories would be different. And some would

01:13:31.529 --> 01:13:34.810
actually see a more violent act than what happened.

01:13:35.050 --> 01:13:38.909
But the purpose of that was to show students

01:13:38.909 --> 01:13:40.670
when they become police officers that you need

01:13:40.670 --> 01:13:44.819
to be wary of witness statements. You take witness

01:13:44.819 --> 01:13:47.680
statements, but don't take them as the absolute

01:13:47.680 --> 01:13:50.939
truth. In fact, I used to teach, if you have

01:13:50.939 --> 01:13:54.079
three witness statements and they are all identical

01:13:54.079 --> 01:13:58.340
in what they saw and heard, then you know they

01:13:58.340 --> 01:14:04.739
colluded. You wouldn't see it the same. Our reality

01:14:04.739 --> 01:14:08.020
is not what happened. Our reality is our memory

01:14:08.020 --> 01:14:13.479
of what happened. It's like driving down the...

01:14:13.479 --> 01:14:18.479
Of course, people focus on the past, so they

01:14:18.479 --> 01:14:21.119
focus on... That's why they're unhappy. They're

01:14:21.119 --> 01:14:23.680
focusing on the stress, the trauma, the events

01:14:23.680 --> 01:14:25.920
that happened, the things that were done to them.

01:14:27.880 --> 01:14:31.079
Most people are going down life's highway not

01:14:31.079 --> 01:14:33.979
with their hands on the steering wheel, but they're

01:14:33.979 --> 01:14:37.060
going down life's highway with their hands on

01:14:37.060 --> 01:14:40.930
the rearview mirror. traveling down the highway

01:14:40.930 --> 01:14:44.529
of life. And then we wonder why we have so many

01:14:44.529 --> 01:14:47.109
accidents in our personal, family, social, and

01:14:47.109 --> 01:14:55.130
work life. It reminds me of a story. Years after

01:14:55.130 --> 01:14:57.569
Vietnam, I think it was 25 years after Vietnam,

01:14:57.609 --> 01:15:02.310
a guy I hadn't seen in 25 years, we met and started

01:15:02.310 --> 01:15:05.850
bringing up memories. And he believed that a

01:15:05.850 --> 01:15:09.630
mutual classmate named Charlie had died. He had

01:15:09.630 --> 01:15:11.850
believed that. He believed that Charlie died

01:15:11.850 --> 01:15:14.050
leaving behind a wife and a kid. And he had believed

01:15:14.050 --> 01:15:17.770
that for 25 years. And I go, no, no, no, no.

01:15:18.229 --> 01:15:21.109
Charlie, here. I pull out my phone. Here's where

01:15:21.109 --> 01:15:23.270
he lives. Here's his phone number. Here's his

01:15:23.270 --> 01:15:27.369
email address. Contact him. Here's an example

01:15:27.369 --> 01:15:30.890
of his reality. Now, that's a narrow slice of

01:15:30.890 --> 01:15:33.710
his reality. But still, it's an example of how

01:15:33.710 --> 01:15:38.539
your reality based on a false memory. can affect

01:15:38.539 --> 01:15:42.340
your life. That many years later, he was still

01:15:42.340 --> 01:15:44.979
sad that Charlie had died and left behind a wife

01:15:44.979 --> 01:15:53.800
and a kid. I like to use an example. Again, this

01:15:53.800 --> 01:15:58.659
work I did in this area about cognitive and memory

01:15:58.659 --> 01:16:04.720
and your life was written for people at the level

01:16:04.720 --> 01:16:08.359
of people that are in drug court. I'm trying

01:16:08.359 --> 01:16:11.979
to, it's not the best way to articulate it, but

01:16:11.979 --> 01:16:15.680
picture two students studying for exams and they're

01:16:15.680 --> 01:16:19.739
sitting under different trees on campus and they

01:16:19.739 --> 01:16:21.779
happen to be orange trees and they're alone,

01:16:22.000 --> 01:16:26.619
no one to interact with. And 10 feet above them

01:16:26.619 --> 01:16:29.920
is a quarter pound orange that falls and strikes

01:16:29.920 --> 01:16:34.520
them on the head. Equal force. One of the student

01:16:34.520 --> 01:16:37.720
gets annoyed. He moves out from under the tree.

01:16:38.939 --> 01:16:42.159
That student's reality of that event is negative.

01:16:42.739 --> 01:16:45.619
While the other student laughs and they move

01:16:45.619 --> 01:16:47.359
to a spot where they assure themselves they won't

01:16:47.359 --> 01:16:50.960
be hit again. Well, that student's reality of

01:16:50.960 --> 01:16:56.859
that event is certainly more positive. The event

01:16:56.859 --> 01:16:59.979
of an orange falling and striking a student with

01:16:59.979 --> 01:17:03.760
a specific force, that's science. It's math and

01:17:03.760 --> 01:17:08.760
physics. We can duplicate it on paper, in a lab,

01:17:08.779 --> 01:17:12.060
or under the same tree. A quarter pound orange

01:17:12.060 --> 01:17:14.279
falling 10 feet will hit with the same force

01:17:14.279 --> 01:17:18.539
every time we try it. Two plus two is four. Two

01:17:18.539 --> 01:17:21.939
molecules of hydrogen mixed with a molecule of

01:17:21.939 --> 01:17:23.800
oxygen is going to give us water every time.

01:17:23.920 --> 01:17:28.319
That is science. But what is not science? We

01:17:28.319 --> 01:17:32.229
can't predict on paper in a laboratory. We can't

01:17:32.229 --> 01:17:34.489
predict what the two students' reactions would

01:17:34.489 --> 01:17:38.909
be. We can spend hours in psychoanalysis and

01:17:38.909 --> 01:17:42.130
therapy. We can refer to the DSM. It can never

01:17:42.130 --> 01:17:45.090
be predicted with any accuracy what one person

01:17:45.090 --> 01:17:47.649
will choose to think and how they will react.

01:17:50.279 --> 01:17:52.680
I like to use the example of two accountants

01:17:52.680 --> 01:17:55.079
going to work, and while at a red light, they're

01:17:55.079 --> 01:17:57.899
together in the car in the rear seat, and someone's

01:17:57.899 --> 01:17:59.979
driving them, and they get rear -ended by a 3

01:17:59.979 --> 01:18:02.399
,000 -pound vehicle moving at 10 miles an hour.

01:18:03.539 --> 01:18:07.220
The force they're hit with, the damage to their

01:18:07.220 --> 01:18:10.699
car, can be predicted and replicated in a laboratory.

01:18:11.199 --> 01:18:14.060
A 3 ,000 -pound vehicle moving at 10 miles an

01:18:14.060 --> 01:18:16.119
hour with no external force isn't going to hit

01:18:16.119 --> 01:18:20.079
with the same force every time. There are recognized

01:18:20.079 --> 01:18:23.039
forensic experts in the field of accident reconstruction

01:18:23.039 --> 01:18:26.800
who, given the same circumstances, can predict

01:18:26.800 --> 01:18:31.579
the resultant force and damage. We cannot predict

01:18:31.579 --> 01:18:34.199
or replicate, though, the reaction of the occupants.

01:18:35.359 --> 01:18:37.439
One of the occupants will jump out and start

01:18:37.439 --> 01:18:39.340
screaming and yelling at the other driver, you

01:18:39.340 --> 01:18:41.779
know, how the hell did you not see us? Look at

01:18:41.779 --> 01:18:45.520
the damage. Now I'm late for my meeting. The

01:18:45.520 --> 01:18:48.680
other occupant gets out. And she's concerned

01:18:48.680 --> 01:18:52.119
with ensuring that no one was injured. And then

01:18:52.119 --> 01:18:53.979
she wants to make sure that the car is moving

01:18:53.979 --> 01:18:57.359
out of the road so that the traffic can get moving

01:18:57.359 --> 01:19:00.119
again. Because the other driver wants it left

01:19:00.119 --> 01:19:02.100
right there. He wants the police to see what

01:19:02.100 --> 01:19:07.420
happened. Out of one event, though, two completely

01:19:07.420 --> 01:19:13.300
different realities. They get back to the office

01:19:13.300 --> 01:19:17.369
and... The secretary hands Tom, the guy, a note

01:19:17.369 --> 01:19:19.369
that's saying, oh, by the way, your appointment

01:19:19.369 --> 01:19:23.449
this morning was canceled because this reason

01:19:23.449 --> 01:19:29.350
and that reason. So Tom had been angry, fretting,

01:19:29.350 --> 01:19:33.109
and stewing over a meeting that never occurred.

01:19:35.310 --> 01:19:37.069
People are going to say, yeah, but he thought

01:19:37.069 --> 01:19:40.649
he missed the meeting. That's my point. It's

01:19:40.649 --> 01:19:43.970
all thought. He didn't miss a meeting. He just

01:19:43.970 --> 01:19:53.329
thought he missed a meeting. And I know we're

01:19:53.329 --> 01:19:56.350
talking about innocuous events here, an orange

01:19:56.350 --> 01:20:02.010
car, minor traffic accident. But as police officers,

01:20:02.470 --> 01:20:06.949
EMS personnel, firemen, soldiers, we've had serious

01:20:06.949 --> 01:20:10.289
circumstances in life that need to be dealt with.

01:20:12.460 --> 01:20:14.640
We've all witnessed and experienced violence

01:20:14.640 --> 01:20:20.300
in some form, fired from a job, divorce, death

01:20:20.300 --> 01:20:25.979
of a loved one, death of a co -worker. Your memory,

01:20:25.979 --> 01:20:28.380
though, of those circumstances is influencing

01:20:28.380 --> 01:20:32.239
your happiness. You choose how to think about

01:20:32.239 --> 01:20:41.180
those memories. It's your decision. Any thoughts

01:20:41.180 --> 01:20:43.579
as we're going along here? Yeah, no, I've just

01:20:43.579 --> 01:20:46.000
been sitting. You've just been so fluid in your

01:20:46.000 --> 01:20:48.020
storytelling. There's no point in me even jumping

01:20:48.020 --> 01:20:51.079
in. Well, the first thing, I kind of want to

01:20:51.079 --> 01:20:53.520
go on the individual and their thoughts and their

01:20:53.520 --> 01:20:55.720
ownership and then the environment as well. But

01:20:55.720 --> 01:21:00.579
one thing that has really kind of come to light

01:21:00.579 --> 01:21:03.739
over a thousand conversations now, whether it

01:21:03.739 --> 01:21:05.859
was father in your case, whether it was grandfather

01:21:05.859 --> 01:21:10.319
in a lot of the cases of the guests, is how often...

01:21:10.810 --> 01:21:14.029
world war ii veteran you know at that time parents

01:21:14.029 --> 01:21:16.829
grandparents were actually struggling and we

01:21:16.829 --> 01:21:19.649
gave the you know this whole facade of they just

01:21:19.649 --> 01:21:21.350
came back and they rolled up their sleeves and

01:21:21.350 --> 01:21:22.750
they were fine they were cut from a different

01:21:22.750 --> 01:21:25.510
cloth and you know they were human human beings

01:21:25.510 --> 01:21:30.170
as well and i can't help but feel like that unaddressed

01:21:30.170 --> 01:21:32.890
trauma because i believe that trauma can be processed

01:21:32.890 --> 01:21:35.489
and absolutely become a strength there's no question

01:21:35.489 --> 01:21:38.409
post -traumatic growth is a real thing but if

01:21:38.409 --> 01:21:40.489
it's buried and now you you won't even allow

01:21:40.489 --> 01:21:43.750
that generation to be vulnerable and speak openly

01:21:43.750 --> 01:21:45.270
because you've said well don't say anything because

01:21:45.270 --> 01:21:48.149
you're the greatest generation i feel like that's

01:21:48.149 --> 01:21:50.770
now one of the and it may have gone way prior

01:21:50.770 --> 01:21:53.029
to that but certainly from that point we've got

01:21:53.029 --> 01:21:56.449
the dominoes that then fall you know to my parents

01:21:56.449 --> 01:21:58.970
generation and then my generation and then we

01:21:58.970 --> 01:22:01.529
have this multi -generational trauma not excuses

01:22:02.380 --> 01:22:04.760
But reasons, you know, is that, you know, when

01:22:04.760 --> 01:22:06.500
we look back, we have to acknowledge some of

01:22:06.500 --> 01:22:08.340
these things, you know, what our upbringing was

01:22:08.340 --> 01:22:11.319
like, what our parents upbringing was like. So

01:22:11.319 --> 01:22:14.220
you talked about your father, you know, not going

01:22:14.220 --> 01:22:16.300
to combat, but I'm assuming obviously he had,

01:22:16.399 --> 01:22:20.500
you know, friends and generations that did. What

01:22:20.500 --> 01:22:23.479
is your observation as far as going, you know,

01:22:23.520 --> 01:22:27.399
80 plus years back as far as the origin story

01:22:27.399 --> 01:22:31.479
of some of these? mental health challenges that

01:22:31.479 --> 01:22:41.859
have created this generational trauma? Well,

01:22:41.920 --> 01:22:46.880
I don't know. My mind may have understood that

01:22:46.880 --> 01:22:50.199
differently than you directed at me. But I see,

01:22:50.380 --> 01:22:54.579
you know, we tried to hide it. World War II vets,

01:22:54.579 --> 01:22:57.899
they called it shell shock, I think. And they

01:22:57.899 --> 01:23:01.199
just didn't talk about it. And today we talk

01:23:01.199 --> 01:23:05.100
about it a lot. Therapy is a big business. And

01:23:05.100 --> 01:23:07.720
my problem, though, with that therapy is, for

01:23:07.720 --> 01:23:12.000
most parts, that type of therapy, is that we're

01:23:12.000 --> 01:23:17.960
rehashing memories. And as I just kind of discussed

01:23:17.960 --> 01:23:19.680
earlier, our memories aren't always correct.

01:23:21.319 --> 01:23:27.039
And we keep rehashing them, and they become hardwired.

01:23:28.520 --> 01:23:31.300
And that just keeps, that circuit just keeps

01:23:31.300 --> 01:23:37.079
running of that memory that has given us the

01:23:37.079 --> 01:23:40.479
stress that continues to hang on from these traumatic

01:23:40.479 --> 01:23:44.640
experiences. See, what's interesting is having

01:23:44.640 --> 01:23:47.560
all these conversations, again, understanding

01:23:47.560 --> 01:23:50.079
that multi -generational trauma is... definitely

01:23:50.079 --> 01:23:51.960
a thing that there are struggles that you know

01:23:51.960 --> 01:23:54.140
then create a household that might be domestic

01:23:54.140 --> 01:23:56.859
abuse or you know sexual abuse or alcoholism

01:23:56.859 --> 01:23:59.699
or just you know one or both parents leaving

01:23:59.699 --> 01:24:02.979
or the child not feeling loved and whatever that

01:24:02.979 --> 01:24:07.960
person's experience is um but up until very very

01:24:07.960 --> 01:24:11.319
recently the solutions were really you can drug

01:24:11.319 --> 01:24:13.760
the person and like you said you can sit down

01:24:13.760 --> 01:24:15.380
and talk about it over and over and over and

01:24:15.380 --> 01:24:19.430
over again but now as so many other kind of options

01:24:19.430 --> 01:24:21.989
have emerged, I think this is what's exciting

01:24:21.989 --> 01:24:24.149
about this mental health conversation is, yeah,

01:24:24.149 --> 01:24:27.149
you can do talk therapy, absolutely. Or you can

01:24:27.149 --> 01:24:30.229
do EMDR, or you can do a diving retreat, or you

01:24:30.229 --> 01:24:33.350
can get an animal, a therapy dog, for example.

01:24:33.689 --> 01:24:36.989
Or you can do ayahuasca or ibogaine or MDMA -led

01:24:36.989 --> 01:24:40.489
counseling. So now some of these ones outside

01:24:40.489 --> 01:24:42.979
of the traditional... or non -traditional depending

01:24:42.979 --> 01:24:45.619
on how you look at it um you know talk therapy

01:24:45.619 --> 01:24:48.960
and medications you're getting away from that

01:24:48.960 --> 01:24:52.260
repetitive you know conversation over and over

01:24:52.260 --> 01:24:53.840
again what's bothering you what's bothering you

01:24:53.840 --> 01:24:55.899
what's bothering you and you're leaning into

01:24:55.899 --> 01:25:00.100
health time in nature community even some of

01:25:00.100 --> 01:25:02.279
these psychedelics maybe unlocking some things

01:25:02.279 --> 01:25:04.000
that were deep in your mind that you weren't

01:25:04.000 --> 01:25:07.800
aware of so This is why I think that we're starting

01:25:07.800 --> 01:25:09.979
to see now a kind of renaissance when it comes

01:25:09.979 --> 01:25:12.119
to the treatments available and the options for

01:25:12.119 --> 01:25:14.880
people. Because there's a lot of people that

01:25:14.880 --> 01:25:16.460
we've lost because they thought talk therapy

01:25:16.460 --> 01:25:19.260
was the only thing or the meds. And it simply

01:25:19.260 --> 01:25:21.159
didn't work. And probably, like you said, one

01:25:21.159 --> 01:25:23.199
of the reasons was you're rehashing the same

01:25:23.199 --> 01:25:25.939
thing. And either just revisiting isn't working

01:25:25.939 --> 01:25:29.079
or it's slowly morphing, as you're telling it,

01:25:29.140 --> 01:25:32.739
versus actually getting outside, actually being

01:25:32.739 --> 01:25:36.909
amongst other people. having the ability to truly

01:25:36.909 --> 01:25:40.710
be vulnerable, maybe through some sort of medication

01:25:40.710 --> 01:25:43.229
that's taken you out of yourself, like MDMA.

01:25:43.869 --> 01:25:46.970
So I think this interesting perspective that

01:25:46.970 --> 01:25:50.670
you have does align with a lot of the successes

01:25:50.670 --> 01:25:54.069
that we're seeing outside of the traditional

01:25:54.069 --> 01:25:58.479
counseling and psychiatric meds. Well, there's

01:25:58.479 --> 01:26:00.800
a big movement on all of that. And I'm certainly

01:26:00.800 --> 01:26:04.000
not, while I've been a federal and state court

01:26:04.000 --> 01:26:09.260
recognized expert in drugs and narcotics, I'm

01:26:09.260 --> 01:26:13.020
not and was never really up to speed on the hallucinogenics.

01:26:13.079 --> 01:26:16.220
But what they're doing today in that field, the

01:26:16.220 --> 01:26:19.399
treatment they're doing today in that field,

01:26:19.439 --> 01:26:23.720
and I've talked to military guys, special forces.

01:26:27.350 --> 01:26:32.810
These treatments are not new, but they're finally

01:26:32.810 --> 01:26:36.510
being accepted. We've got the whole University

01:26:36.510 --> 01:26:38.850
of Texas here, just up the street in Austin,

01:26:39.069 --> 01:26:42.890
has a big department that's studying the use

01:26:42.890 --> 01:26:50.409
of psychedelics in mental health care. But it's

01:26:50.409 --> 01:26:54.930
still, though, you're still fighting hardcore,

01:26:55.329 --> 01:27:01.520
older. politicians who who don't want to even

01:27:01.520 --> 01:27:06.739
have a discussion about legalizing even for medical

01:27:06.739 --> 01:27:12.460
reasons a lot of these substances you talked

01:27:12.460 --> 01:27:15.590
about alcohol prohibition this is something I

01:27:15.590 --> 01:27:17.789
was educated with a few years ago as a guy, Johan

01:27:17.789 --> 01:27:20.149
Hari wrote a book called Chasing the Scream.

01:27:20.289 --> 01:27:22.850
And he does such a great job of talking about

01:27:22.850 --> 01:27:26.369
the very beginning in the 30s of drug prohibition.

01:27:26.789 --> 01:27:29.189
But you just underlined it perfectly. The end

01:27:29.189 --> 01:27:31.390
of alcohol prohibition, people are like, oh,

01:27:31.390 --> 01:27:33.390
thank goodness, because we had people like Al

01:27:33.390 --> 01:27:35.989
Capone that were terrorizing people back then

01:27:35.989 --> 01:27:38.409
and profiting off the, you know, putting people

01:27:38.409 --> 01:27:40.369
that want to drink into the underworld's hands.

01:27:40.810 --> 01:27:44.109
That ends, you know, oh my goodness, I'm forgetting

01:27:44.109 --> 01:27:48.079
his name now. God, what is his name? Anyway,

01:27:48.220 --> 01:27:52.119
it'll come to me in a moment. The next person

01:27:52.119 --> 01:27:54.380
who's going to put in that position as far as

01:27:54.380 --> 01:27:57.319
the government role is a screaming racist and

01:27:57.319 --> 01:27:59.699
has to justify his job. And that's really the

01:27:59.699 --> 01:28:02.319
birth of drug prohibition and the Reaper madness

01:28:02.319 --> 01:28:05.340
and all these other things. And then as you talk

01:28:05.340 --> 01:28:07.100
about, there are other chapters as you move through

01:28:07.100 --> 01:28:09.560
the decades where it gets worse and worse. I

01:28:09.560 --> 01:28:12.260
come into the first responder profession like

01:28:12.260 --> 01:28:16.090
boots on the ground in 2004. foreign boy from

01:28:16.090 --> 01:28:18.130
england moved to america now i'm in the urban

01:28:18.130 --> 01:28:20.489
setting you know watching the prostitution and

01:28:20.489 --> 01:28:22.210
the homelessness and the overdoses and the gang

01:28:22.210 --> 01:28:25.270
membership and the violence and over you know

01:28:25.270 --> 01:28:28.770
a 14 -year career in my specific example you

01:28:28.770 --> 01:28:31.989
you it's just undeniable that this is not working

01:28:32.590 --> 01:28:34.630
it's not getting better like you said i hear

01:28:34.630 --> 01:28:36.470
so many of my law enforcement guests say the

01:28:36.470 --> 01:28:38.789
moment you take someone off a street corner the

01:28:38.789 --> 01:28:40.350
next you know there's not even another one that

01:28:40.350 --> 01:28:43.409
replaces it now you create a gang war and then

01:28:43.409 --> 01:28:45.770
ultimately someone replaces it so more people

01:28:45.770 --> 01:28:49.529
die so as we progress through and then my mother

01:28:49.529 --> 01:28:53.119
who moved to portugal about 22 years ago told

01:28:53.119 --> 01:28:55.300
me what they do what they did over there and

01:28:55.300 --> 01:28:58.039
they decriminalized addiction not smuggling not

01:28:58.039 --> 01:29:00.779
not selling but the addicts they put in the in

01:29:00.779 --> 01:29:03.220
the hands of the medical community and they also

01:29:03.220 --> 01:29:05.539
gave it the funding and the support for mental

01:29:05.539 --> 01:29:09.199
health counseling drug creation sorry um addiction

01:29:09.199 --> 01:29:13.600
uh counseling job creation housing you know so

01:29:13.600 --> 01:29:15.560
they did it properly not piecemeal like like

01:29:15.560 --> 01:29:19.020
places in the northwest of tribe and you see

01:29:19.020 --> 01:29:22.329
it works And then you hear about our warfighters

01:29:22.329 --> 01:29:25.430
that literally go overseas, fight for this country,

01:29:25.569 --> 01:29:27.989
and then have to go to another country to get,

01:29:28.029 --> 01:29:29.829
as you said, some of the psychedelic therapies

01:29:29.829 --> 01:29:33.029
that are working. All these pieces start to come

01:29:33.029 --> 01:29:35.770
together and you're like, why are we not having

01:29:35.770 --> 01:29:37.789
this discussion? Why are we not talking about

01:29:37.789 --> 01:29:42.250
the 80 -year longitudinal study on drug prohibition

01:29:42.250 --> 01:29:44.810
and how it hasn't made things better? It's made

01:29:44.810 --> 01:29:49.789
things so much worse. Well, you cannot have...

01:29:49.920 --> 01:29:51.720
the conversation if you're in law enforcement.

01:29:52.600 --> 01:29:58.479
There are agencies where if you do a public talk,

01:29:58.579 --> 01:30:00.520
like we're doing our discussion and even bring

01:30:00.520 --> 01:30:06.840
up the topic of legalization, you'll be fired.

01:30:08.199 --> 01:30:12.399
You'll be fired. My boss at San Jose, Joe McNamara,

01:30:12.539 --> 01:30:17.560
he helped me with my MA and my BA at University

01:30:17.560 --> 01:30:20.590
of San Francisco. And he had come up from New

01:30:20.590 --> 01:30:23.430
York, rose to the ranks, and then became chief

01:30:23.430 --> 01:30:28.609
of police of San Jose. And he couldn't admit

01:30:28.609 --> 01:30:32.310
it at the time, but he had already written a

01:30:32.310 --> 01:30:35.289
thesis on the failure of the war on drugs. But

01:30:35.289 --> 01:30:38.789
he couldn't publicly, he couldn't even produce

01:30:38.789 --> 01:30:41.529
the paper. He couldn't have it published. He

01:30:41.529 --> 01:30:43.770
couldn't publicly. And he helped me a heck of

01:30:43.770 --> 01:30:46.800
a lot. But he never was able to come out and

01:30:46.800 --> 01:30:49.140
tell me his point of view until when I came back

01:30:49.140 --> 01:30:50.960
from living in the Caribbean and he found out

01:30:50.960 --> 01:30:53.460
I was stateside now for good. He got a hold of

01:30:53.460 --> 01:30:56.020
me and he was at the Hoover Institute. So Joe

01:30:56.020 --> 01:30:58.880
Mack and I worked together for almost 20 years

01:30:58.880 --> 01:31:04.640
on this field. And so there are people today,

01:31:04.939 --> 01:31:07.239
Judge Jim Gray, you know, who will speak out.

01:31:11.060 --> 01:31:15.090
Milton Friedman was a big fan of. advocate of

01:31:15.090 --> 01:31:18.630
legalizing drugs. But you go back to the politics

01:31:18.630 --> 01:31:22.710
of it, you go back to marijuana. Marijuana was

01:31:22.710 --> 01:31:29.489
initially fought against by Randolph Hearst,

01:31:29.489 --> 01:31:35.850
because Hearst owned huge amounts of forest to

01:31:35.850 --> 01:31:39.590
make newspaper paper. And he didn't want the

01:31:39.590 --> 01:31:43.909
competition from the hemp industry. So he was

01:31:43.909 --> 01:31:48.430
the first to go to Congress and fight for, donate

01:31:48.430 --> 01:31:52.069
money toward the cause of making all forms of

01:31:52.069 --> 01:31:55.010
hemp and marijuana illegal. And then you had

01:31:55.010 --> 01:31:59.729
Ann Swinger to try to justify it. He goes and

01:31:59.729 --> 01:32:04.229
says, oh, people using marijuana are just blacks

01:32:04.229 --> 01:32:08.630
and Mexicans. I forget. Somewhere in my notes,

01:32:08.649 --> 01:32:12.270
I've got the quote. And then they make this movie,

01:32:12.350 --> 01:32:15.329
Reefer Madness, which I saw as black and white.

01:32:15.510 --> 01:32:17.930
I don't know what age I was. And it's such a

01:32:17.930 --> 01:32:22.329
joke as to what the reality is. But the politics

01:32:22.329 --> 01:32:24.729
and trying to get people to change their mind,

01:32:24.789 --> 01:32:29.069
it's the same issue with the psychedelics today.

01:32:31.609 --> 01:32:36.670
But what we're doing today. What we're doing

01:32:36.670 --> 01:32:38.470
today in the United States, I want to get back

01:32:38.470 --> 01:32:40.090
to Portugal, by the way, because I was just over

01:32:40.090 --> 01:32:46.590
there. I saw no outwardly evident evidence of

01:32:46.590 --> 01:32:50.810
a drug problem in Portugal. Not like I could

01:32:50.810 --> 01:32:54.010
go to Austin and point it out to you real quickly,

01:32:54.130 --> 01:32:56.670
the evidence of drug prohibition. But a point

01:32:56.670 --> 01:33:04.329
I want to make here is people prefer. their mind

01:33:04.329 --> 01:33:08.109
-altering substances in the milder form. If it's

01:33:08.109 --> 01:33:11.789
legal, they'll take it in the mildest form. Beer,

01:33:11.989 --> 01:33:15.510
wine, it's the most commonly used way of drinking

01:33:15.510 --> 01:33:18.649
alcohol. When we drink liquor, how do most people

01:33:18.649 --> 01:33:22.649
drink liquor? In a mixed drink, or they sip it.

01:33:23.510 --> 01:33:30.109
Is our alcohol policies, are they perfect? No.

01:33:31.600 --> 01:33:34.760
But we know it's much better than prohibition.

01:33:36.000 --> 01:33:40.500
During alcohol prohibition, we had hard, adulterated

01:33:40.500 --> 01:33:44.819
booze that killed. My grandfather, when he was

01:33:44.819 --> 01:33:50.319
26 years of old, got so drunk on adulterated

01:33:50.319 --> 01:33:53.199
booze that he laid in a ditch all night in the

01:33:53.199 --> 01:34:00.539
winter and he died from bad booze in prohibition.

01:34:01.860 --> 01:34:07.920
Black market drives dealers. So you want it in

01:34:07.920 --> 01:34:11.760
the milder form. Go to Bolivia. You can use cocaine

01:34:11.760 --> 01:34:13.899
there. How do they use it? They chew on the leaves.

01:34:14.779 --> 01:34:17.960
When cocaine was legal here in the States, we

01:34:17.960 --> 01:34:20.319
used it the same way we use caffeine today. It

01:34:20.319 --> 01:34:22.739
was in drinks and things like that. It was Coca

01:34:22.739 --> 01:34:27.810
-Cola, wasn't it? Yeah. You make caffeine. illegal

01:34:27.810 --> 01:34:30.850
in the States today. And pretty soon on the black

01:34:30.850 --> 01:34:34.409
market, you'll be able to buy tablets, you know,

01:34:34.409 --> 01:34:43.529
big tablets of caffeine. And then the black market

01:34:43.529 --> 01:34:46.689
also, though, it drives dealers to produce and

01:34:46.689 --> 01:34:49.189
transport their substance in the strongest form.

01:34:49.630 --> 01:34:52.850
Meyer Lansky and Al Capone weren't bringing in

01:34:52.850 --> 01:34:57.000
barrels of beer across the Canadian border. or

01:34:57.000 --> 01:35:00.000
over from the Palmas. No, they were bringing

01:35:00.000 --> 01:35:06.880
in very hard, ever clear liquor. Ricky Ross,

01:35:07.000 --> 01:35:12.079
you know who Ricky Ross was? So Ricky Ross is

01:35:12.079 --> 01:35:14.619
this cocaine dealer and he's getting his cocaine

01:35:14.619 --> 01:35:19.199
from Michael Blanton. Michael Blanton was a operative

01:35:19.199 --> 01:35:21.300
in Central America, like I was talking about

01:35:21.300 --> 01:35:23.760
those guys. Blanton was bringing cocaine back.

01:35:24.039 --> 01:35:26.460
Blanton was giving it to Ricky Ross. Ricky Ross

01:35:26.460 --> 01:35:30.619
was making millions of dollars selling cocaine.

01:35:31.500 --> 01:35:34.680
But cocaine in its powder form is hard to carry.

01:35:35.140 --> 01:35:37.739
It's very water -soluble. I mean, if you've got

01:35:37.739 --> 01:35:39.319
sweaty hands and you put a little bit of cocaine

01:35:39.319 --> 01:35:42.279
in your hand, it'll just go away. It'll just

01:35:42.279 --> 01:35:45.579
be like magic. It dissolves. So cocaine's hard

01:35:45.579 --> 01:35:48.829
to carry. It's hard to transport. So Ricky Ross

01:35:48.829 --> 01:35:51.770
came up with a way of mixing it with baking powder

01:35:51.770 --> 01:35:54.329
and baking soda. I don't know what he does. But

01:35:54.329 --> 01:35:56.829
he made it, and it comes out, and it's called

01:35:56.829 --> 01:36:00.590
crack because it's chunks. And it's not water

01:36:00.590 --> 01:36:05.109
-soluble. I can take a chunk of crack and put

01:36:05.109 --> 01:36:07.270
it in my lip and walk around with it, talk to

01:36:07.270 --> 01:36:09.470
a cop. You got any drugs on you? No. It's in

01:36:09.470 --> 01:36:13.890
my cheek. A line of cocaine back in my day cost

01:36:13.890 --> 01:36:18.770
$120. That's expensive for the kids in the hood.

01:36:20.449 --> 01:36:25.170
But crack, you can chip it off in a $25 dose,

01:36:25.489 --> 01:36:27.869
which kids in the hood can't afford, and you

01:36:27.869 --> 01:36:33.289
smoke it. So the war on drugs has brought us

01:36:33.289 --> 01:36:37.470
crack. It has brought us ice. It has brought

01:36:37.470 --> 01:36:44.449
us the drugs, fentanyl. And now we got fentanyl.

01:36:44.550 --> 01:36:47.369
Here's an example of, we know what the problem

01:36:47.369 --> 01:36:50.550
is with fentanyl, but here's an example of buying

01:36:50.550 --> 01:36:54.409
drugs that are not pharmaceutically produced.

01:36:55.409 --> 01:37:01.069
You do not know here in Texas, if you go by Houston,

01:37:01.250 --> 01:37:05.390
Austin, you can find dealers who will sell marijuana

01:37:05.390 --> 01:37:09.960
that's been laced with fentanyl. Now, how do

01:37:09.960 --> 01:37:12.640
you know that, though, unless he tells you? And

01:37:12.640 --> 01:37:14.399
if you're turning around and you're buying some

01:37:14.399 --> 01:37:17.000
of it and you say, I really got some good stuff,

01:37:17.060 --> 01:37:18.880
and you start selling it to 18 -year -old kids

01:37:18.880 --> 01:37:21.899
or 16 -year -old kids, and they really like it,

01:37:21.899 --> 01:37:24.859
of course, and then some of that fentanyl that

01:37:24.859 --> 01:37:27.479
was sprinkled in there is just a little too much,

01:37:27.600 --> 01:37:31.899
now we've got a dead kid. So those are the kind

01:37:31.899 --> 01:37:34.199
of things. We wouldn't have fentanyl. We wouldn't

01:37:34.199 --> 01:37:37.340
have crack. We wouldn't have, no. People would

01:37:37.340 --> 01:37:40.100
take it in a milder form. Is it the perfect answer?

01:37:41.359 --> 01:37:46.579
No. But in looking for the perfect, we shouldn't

01:37:46.579 --> 01:37:50.020
underlook the better. And there's a better way

01:37:50.020 --> 01:37:53.760
to handle the war on drugs than what we're doing.

01:37:55.659 --> 01:38:01.119
Drugs is up. Before I leave marijuana, one of

01:38:01.119 --> 01:38:03.800
the biggest claims for how many years, marijuana

01:38:03.800 --> 01:38:07.029
is a gateway drug. If you use marijuana, then

01:38:07.029 --> 01:38:09.710
you're going to start using heroin. Well, you

01:38:09.710 --> 01:38:11.649
know, I experienced a gateway drug when I was

01:38:11.649 --> 01:38:15.890
like probably six or seven. I was given some

01:38:15.890 --> 01:38:20.109
chocolate. I liked chocolate. It tasted good.

01:38:20.810 --> 01:38:23.630
I know other substances liked it. I wanted more

01:38:23.630 --> 01:38:28.130
of it. Chocolate for me was a gateway. It was

01:38:28.130 --> 01:38:33.149
a gateway into more candies. Anything can be

01:38:33.149 --> 01:38:36.750
a gateway. And food can be as worse of addiction

01:38:36.750 --> 01:38:39.970
as drugs are for some people. It's a whole other

01:38:39.970 --> 01:38:46.750
topic, but you're eating. But we have two types

01:38:46.750 --> 01:38:53.930
of loss. We have mala and se. This is, here we

01:38:53.930 --> 01:38:57.970
go again, another poof, Latin. Mala and se and

01:38:57.970 --> 01:39:02.729
mala prohibita. Mala and se are crimes like drugs

01:39:02.729 --> 01:39:05.970
that are mala and se, rape. robbery, murder,

01:39:06.270 --> 01:39:09.850
they're bad in themselves. We all know they're

01:39:09.850 --> 01:39:14.930
bad. Then we have malaprohibited, and those are

01:39:14.930 --> 01:39:19.649
laws only bad because we say so. There is nothing

01:39:19.649 --> 01:39:23.130
inherently wrong with most malaprohibited laws,

01:39:23.710 --> 01:39:26.229
seatbelt laws, which, by the way, when a police

01:39:26.229 --> 01:39:29.270
officer, when they started that crap, I stood

01:39:29.270 --> 01:39:34.050
up in briefing and said, this is bullshit. citing

01:39:34.050 --> 01:39:36.550
people for not wearing a seatbelt, that's between

01:39:36.550 --> 01:39:41.250
them and their insurance company. And we were

01:39:41.250 --> 01:39:45.770
told, no, no, no, no, no. For example, if you're

01:39:45.770 --> 01:39:49.289
at the scene of a traffic accident and someone

01:39:49.289 --> 01:39:52.729
was injured and they obviously, one of the drivers

01:39:52.729 --> 01:39:54.649
didn't have a seatbelt on, then you can write

01:39:54.649 --> 01:39:58.909
a ticket for it. But I said, bullshit, that's

01:39:58.909 --> 01:40:01.220
not what's going to evolve though. and today

01:40:01.220 --> 01:40:03.960
you will be stopped and cited for not wearing

01:40:03.960 --> 01:40:07.800
a seatbelt but there is nothing inherently wrong

01:40:07.800 --> 01:40:14.939
with not wearing a seatbelt uh trying to think

01:40:14.939 --> 01:40:17.479
of some other examples real bad seatbelt laws

01:40:17.479 --> 01:40:21.640
gambling well loitering loitering was put in

01:40:21.640 --> 01:40:23.659
around the same time you know where all of a

01:40:23.659 --> 01:40:25.779
sudden you know people were ending up in prison

01:40:25.779 --> 01:40:28.220
that were literally just standing in you know

01:40:28.220 --> 01:40:31.399
in a public place Yeah, I don't know if we still

01:40:31.399 --> 01:40:34.720
have loitering anymore. Gambling, though, so,

01:40:34.800 --> 01:40:41.899
of course, drug use, prostitution, regulated

01:40:41.899 --> 01:40:46.340
and controlled. There's nothing inherently wrong

01:40:46.340 --> 01:40:48.159
with them, yet we make them against the law.

01:40:48.359 --> 01:40:51.220
And that's one of the problems with working undercover.

01:40:51.659 --> 01:40:54.880
Most of your model prohibitive law is light against

01:40:54.880 --> 01:40:58.220
gambling and prostitution and drugs and stuff

01:40:58.220 --> 01:41:03.279
like that. You use undercover officers. And undercover

01:41:03.279 --> 01:41:09.439
work has so many pitfalls in it. So many pitfalls.

01:41:09.659 --> 01:41:15.380
It gets, I already mentioned it. There was a,

01:41:15.399 --> 01:41:17.840
I'm going to segue off for a second and then

01:41:17.840 --> 01:41:21.680
we'll come back. In flight school, in your helicopters,

01:41:21.899 --> 01:41:24.859
you're learning to fly in formation and you're

01:41:24.859 --> 01:41:26.939
getting near the end. So you're flying big formations.

01:41:27.159 --> 01:41:29.670
And all of a sudden there's like. 40 helicopters

01:41:29.670 --> 01:41:32.010
out in this big field and you're all cranked

01:41:32.010 --> 01:41:34.829
up and you can just feel through your body, the

01:41:34.829 --> 01:41:37.510
thumping of all those rotor blades and you take

01:41:37.510 --> 01:41:40.869
off and all those in your information. And it's

01:41:40.869 --> 01:41:43.289
a thrill. I get goosebumps now thinking about

01:41:43.289 --> 01:41:47.090
it. It's an unimaginable thrill, that sound,

01:41:47.369 --> 01:41:50.029
that noise, that seeing all those other helicopters.

01:41:50.289 --> 01:41:54.270
And then riding, we did a, I did a ride with

01:41:54.270 --> 01:41:56.210
the Hells Angels from San Jose up to Oakland.

01:42:00.109 --> 01:42:02.430
Of course, the president of the clubs are riding

01:42:02.430 --> 01:42:04.210
up front and then the Hells Angels, and then

01:42:04.210 --> 01:42:10.390
you have the prospects who have the lower, and

01:42:10.390 --> 01:42:12.729
I became a prospect, but you get the lower thing,

01:42:12.829 --> 01:42:15.770
but you're at the back. But the roar of those

01:42:15.770 --> 01:42:19.170
Harley -Davidson's and the vibrations you get

01:42:19.170 --> 01:42:24.590
from all of them around you, all in synchrony,

01:42:24.590 --> 01:42:26.630
and you're riding down the freeway and riding

01:42:26.630 --> 01:42:30.189
down the street. And pretty soon, the lines begin

01:42:30.189 --> 01:42:34.489
to blur between what you're really supposed to

01:42:34.489 --> 01:42:48.050
be doing. Yeah, it was interesting. Marijuana,

01:42:48.289 --> 01:42:51.449
back to marijuana. The National Library of Medicine.

01:42:53.689 --> 01:42:56.630
They've posted studies that conclude that...

01:42:56.970 --> 01:43:01.069
Most marijuana intoxicated drivers show only

01:43:01.069 --> 01:43:07.270
a modest impairment on an actual road test. Now,

01:43:07.289 --> 01:43:09.710
I've done these actual road tests with alcohol,

01:43:09.930 --> 01:43:13.310
where we had the big San Jose State University,

01:43:13.550 --> 01:43:18.010
a big parking lot, and they test you. I think

01:43:18.010 --> 01:43:20.069
there were like 15 of us, and they tested us.

01:43:20.539 --> 01:43:22.420
to make sure we were alcohol free. Then we did

01:43:22.420 --> 01:43:25.520
this drug test. You're driving in cones and these

01:43:25.520 --> 01:43:29.000
temporary stoplights come in and, you know, light

01:43:29.000 --> 01:43:31.060
would come up at the last minute and you stop,

01:43:31.220 --> 01:43:33.539
you know, and then you go and you back in and

01:43:33.539 --> 01:43:35.699
you do this kind of a drug test. And then they

01:43:35.699 --> 01:43:39.340
give you a drink. They get you up to, usually

01:43:39.340 --> 01:43:43.039
one drink would get you up to about 0 .03. And

01:43:43.039 --> 01:43:45.239
then they get you at 0 .06. Then they get you

01:43:45.239 --> 01:43:48.300
at 0 .08. And after, of course, once you Once

01:43:48.300 --> 01:43:50.140
they know you're at 0 .03, you drive the test

01:43:50.140 --> 01:43:58.159
again. And everybody about 0 .06, you start showing

01:43:58.159 --> 01:44:03.539
a decline in your driving skills. By the time

01:44:03.539 --> 01:44:07.239
when I did that test, it was 0 .10 in California,

01:44:07.560 --> 01:44:11.470
the legal limit. And the test we did, we could

01:44:11.470 --> 01:44:14.449
all see the results of it afterwards. Of course,

01:44:14.470 --> 01:44:16.829
it's all being filled. CHP was filming it all

01:44:16.829 --> 01:44:18.750
on it. So you could see that there was impairment.

01:44:19.010 --> 01:44:25.510
There was impairment. But marijuana smokers who

01:44:25.510 --> 01:44:30.409
drive on a set course show almost no functional

01:44:30.409 --> 01:44:32.529
impairment under the influence of marijuana,

01:44:32.750 --> 01:44:38.500
except when it's combined with alcohol. The problem

01:44:38.500 --> 01:44:44.079
of driving any influence is alcohol. You know

01:44:44.079 --> 01:44:46.819
what's interesting as well, as this sleep medicine

01:44:46.819 --> 01:44:49.340
kind of conversation and the studies have really

01:44:49.340 --> 01:44:53.520
come to light the last 10 years or so, one of

01:44:53.520 --> 01:44:58.039
the stats that's always talked about is 24 hours

01:44:58.039 --> 01:45:00.220
without sleep is the same as having a blood alcohol

01:45:00.220 --> 01:45:04.079
of 0 .1. which you can imagine, like you said,

01:45:04.100 --> 01:45:07.039
was probably a cohort of university students

01:45:07.039 --> 01:45:09.279
that were usually in their beds, maybe some late

01:45:09.279 --> 01:45:12.079
nights on weekends, and then do this 24 -hour

01:45:12.079 --> 01:45:13.840
sleep study, and they do probably the same kind

01:45:13.840 --> 01:45:17.060
of test that you did or cognitive test. But now

01:45:17.060 --> 01:45:19.600
you think about a firefighter or a cop, certainly

01:45:19.600 --> 01:45:22.060
in my profession where it's 24 hours, a lot of

01:45:22.060 --> 01:45:25.239
times with disrupted or no sleep for 10, 20,

01:45:25.380 --> 01:45:28.880
30 years. At what point, at what cognitive...

01:45:30.219 --> 01:45:33.239
comparable alcohol content or are people driving

01:45:33.239 --> 01:45:35.880
around because of the shifts that are forcing

01:45:35.880 --> 01:45:37.760
them. And then now with this recruitment crisis,

01:45:37.819 --> 01:45:40.500
all this mandatory overtime is forcing them.

01:45:40.579 --> 01:45:43.560
And we see these intersection wrecks and getting

01:45:43.560 --> 01:45:45.560
lost in fires and pushing the wrong medication

01:45:45.560 --> 01:45:48.460
and, you know, being too aggressive or shooting

01:45:48.460 --> 01:45:51.159
the wrong person. And there's never a conversation

01:45:51.159 --> 01:45:54.560
of the element of rest and recovery and how that

01:45:54.560 --> 01:46:00.399
affects our cognition. And luckily, I guess,

01:46:00.439 --> 01:46:04.699
or at least I don't remember with memories again,

01:46:04.819 --> 01:46:07.979
a problem where I was so tired that I felt it

01:46:07.979 --> 01:46:11.119
interfered. But it had to when my first night

01:46:11.119 --> 01:46:13.840
back to work was on a Sunday when I worked patrol.

01:46:14.000 --> 01:46:19.859
I preferred because I gave you all day. It gave

01:46:19.859 --> 01:46:22.380
you most of the week off. You know, I had Monday,

01:46:22.460 --> 01:46:25.079
Monday off, Tuesday off, Wednesday off and almost

01:46:25.079 --> 01:46:28.630
all of Thursday. So I could do other. I had other

01:46:28.630 --> 01:46:33.390
income jobs to do. So you go back that first

01:46:33.390 --> 01:46:35.829
night, you're up all day Sunday, and then you're

01:46:35.829 --> 01:46:39.149
up all night. And three, four in the morning,

01:46:39.270 --> 01:46:44.090
you're getting tired. But I can't, I'm sure I'd

01:46:44.090 --> 01:46:46.770
like to see a study like that, where they get

01:46:46.770 --> 01:46:49.770
people, you know, doing the same time and drive,

01:46:49.810 --> 01:46:53.550
it'd take a lot longer to do it. But this idea.

01:46:54.280 --> 01:46:56.380
which I've been reading, well, I probably read

01:46:56.380 --> 01:46:58.159
it about on some of your stuff. We're going to

01:46:58.159 --> 01:47:05.979
a 24 on, 72 off. Yes, sir. Sounds like a pretty

01:47:05.979 --> 01:47:08.199
good deal. I don't know how we could do that

01:47:08.199 --> 01:47:10.239
with, how that can be done with law enforcement.

01:47:10.319 --> 01:47:13.739
The 10 -4 plan works pretty good. I think I would,

01:47:13.819 --> 01:47:20.000
I think a good training program on how to make

01:47:20.000 --> 01:47:24.310
better use of your and get better sleep under

01:47:24.310 --> 01:47:27.569
a 10 -4 plan. A course could be taught that would,

01:47:27.649 --> 01:47:31.529
and if they followed it, of course, would be

01:47:31.529 --> 01:47:38.949
worth having a course developed like that. Yeah.

01:47:39.069 --> 01:47:42.050
Yours is a tricky community, the same as Corrections

01:47:42.050 --> 01:47:46.319
and Dispatch and the ER. And obviously... As

01:47:46.319 --> 01:47:49.939
we see the corporate space moving to four -day

01:47:49.939 --> 01:47:52.500
work weeks, 32 -hour weeks, and having the same

01:47:52.500 --> 01:47:55.520
level of efficiency and production and all those

01:47:55.520 --> 01:47:59.060
things, I think maybe questioning for the people

01:47:59.060 --> 01:48:02.140
that life and death is in their hands, do we

01:48:02.140 --> 01:48:04.199
need them to be working 40 hours? Is there an

01:48:04.199 --> 01:48:07.520
opportunity to give our frontline personnel that

01:48:07.520 --> 01:48:10.739
work 12s or 10s a little bit more rest and recovery

01:48:10.739 --> 01:48:13.899
in between? And then if you are having a recruitment

01:48:13.899 --> 01:48:15.960
crisis, figure out what you were doing wrong.

01:48:16.159 --> 01:48:18.479
So these people aren't being forced to work more

01:48:18.479 --> 01:48:20.640
and more shifts. And then, you know, the pay

01:48:20.640 --> 01:48:22.039
is the other thing. You know, a lot of these

01:48:22.039 --> 01:48:23.760
people in first responder professions, as you

01:48:23.760 --> 01:48:26.439
mentioned, have a second job, not because they've

01:48:26.439 --> 01:48:29.119
dreamed of working two jobs, because it's a necessity

01:48:29.119 --> 01:48:31.840
to pay a mortgage in the area that they live.

01:48:31.979 --> 01:48:34.960
So I think, you know, ours is like, let's stop

01:48:34.960 --> 01:48:37.680
working 56. It's a pretty obvious thing to me,

01:48:37.720 --> 01:48:40.140
even though it's been. such a fight to get that

01:48:40.140 --> 01:48:42.939
out there but you know when you get down to when

01:48:42.939 --> 01:48:44.720
we're talking about 40 hour work week for law

01:48:44.720 --> 01:48:47.060
enforcement is like okay well then it's still

01:48:47.060 --> 01:48:48.920
a rest and recovery issue and i think the other

01:48:48.920 --> 01:48:51.560
thing is we are more resilient where we're younger

01:48:51.560 --> 01:48:54.319
so maybe early in the career those are the ones

01:48:54.319 --> 01:48:56.640
that tend to work more of the the night shifts

01:48:56.640 --> 01:48:58.859
and then as you progress and you mature and you

01:48:58.859 --> 01:49:01.960
earn your your place then you start transitioning

01:49:01.960 --> 01:49:04.420
to the ones where you you know you're working

01:49:04.420 --> 01:49:06.439
in the day because there's no question you know

01:49:06.439 --> 01:49:09.010
when i was first in the fire service It bothered

01:49:09.010 --> 01:49:11.489
me a lot less than when I got into my 40s working

01:49:11.489 --> 01:49:13.729
these shifts. So I think there are some opportunities

01:49:13.729 --> 01:49:16.510
to explore that in law enforcement. But if the

01:49:16.510 --> 01:49:19.329
corporate space is moving to a 32 hour work week,

01:49:19.430 --> 01:49:21.890
maybe just maybe the men and women with guns

01:49:21.890 --> 01:49:24.470
on their hips or, you know, working on people

01:49:24.470 --> 01:49:27.369
in the trauma bay in the ER, maybe they need

01:49:27.369 --> 01:49:32.010
some more rest and recovery, too. Yeah, my experience

01:49:32.010 --> 01:49:37.079
with law enforcement and I've stayed. I stayed

01:49:37.079 --> 01:49:39.600
pretty active in all this, in the consulting

01:49:39.600 --> 01:49:42.439
and testifying in court and working with Joe

01:49:42.439 --> 01:49:45.300
McNamara right up until about the time, number

01:49:45.300 --> 01:49:48.239
one, Joe passed away. And that was also the same

01:49:48.239 --> 01:49:50.619
time period when my wife of 30 years passed away.

01:49:51.039 --> 01:49:58.300
And so all my, when she got diagnosed, it was

01:49:58.300 --> 01:50:00.520
when it started, of course, I was no longer able

01:50:00.520 --> 01:50:03.600
to do the traveling that I was doing because

01:50:03.600 --> 01:50:07.979
I used to speak. whether it be Rutgers or Hastings

01:50:07.979 --> 01:50:11.300
School of Law in California or University of

01:50:11.300 --> 01:50:15.060
Chicago. I was speaking all over the nation and

01:50:15.060 --> 01:50:17.180
are testifying in court cases all over the nation.

01:50:17.920 --> 01:50:20.479
So that came to a stop when Sally got diagnosed.

01:50:21.439 --> 01:50:25.699
I became a caretaker and I never got back into

01:50:25.699 --> 01:50:30.859
it. But up to that time, up until about 2010,

01:50:34.439 --> 01:50:41.199
I was active in associating with, working with

01:50:41.199 --> 01:50:43.800
large police departments. And the pay, I never

01:50:43.800 --> 01:50:46.260
found the pay to be an issue with any police

01:50:46.260 --> 01:50:48.979
officers of the department. I was hanging around.

01:50:49.079 --> 01:50:51.539
Even back in my day, the pay was not an issue.

01:50:51.619 --> 01:50:55.399
I worked extra jobs just because, number one,

01:50:55.420 --> 01:50:57.220
I loved real estate. I loved building homes.

01:50:57.699 --> 01:51:00.960
One thing about building homes was when I built

01:51:00.960 --> 01:51:04.909
a home, I could stand back and say, wow. I did

01:51:04.909 --> 01:51:08.369
this. I built this. There is nothing in law enforcement

01:51:08.369 --> 01:51:11.750
where you stand back and go, wow, I did this.

01:51:11.770 --> 01:51:16.090
Yeah, it's a different, it's so, I never found

01:51:16.090 --> 01:51:18.010
too much of a problem, but what I'm finding today,

01:51:18.310 --> 01:51:21.470
or what it sounds to me like today, it's not,

01:51:21.590 --> 01:51:24.449
they're having a hard time finding police officers,

01:51:24.550 --> 01:51:27.729
but not because of the pay. It's because, and

01:51:27.729 --> 01:51:30.010
too many times, law enforcement officers are

01:51:30.010 --> 01:51:33.439
thrown under the bus. And they say it's not worth

01:51:33.439 --> 01:51:36.020
it. This is not a field I want to work in anymore.

01:51:36.239 --> 01:51:39.000
So they're leaving law enforcement or they're

01:51:39.000 --> 01:51:40.600
just not going into it. They're like, why the

01:51:40.600 --> 01:51:46.399
hell? You try to get an educated minority African

01:51:46.399 --> 01:51:48.739
-American to go into law enforcement. Why the

01:51:48.739 --> 01:51:53.399
hell would I want to do that? You know, I'm not

01:51:53.399 --> 01:51:59.510
going to do it. Not here in Austin. or uh san

01:51:59.510 --> 01:52:04.189
jose or la and stuff it's it's hard it's um the

01:52:04.189 --> 01:52:11.170
job isn't as rewarding as as it was in my opinion

01:52:11.170 --> 01:52:17.409
just harder to do the job one one more area and

01:52:17.409 --> 01:52:18.770
i want to go to some closing questions so i'll

01:52:18.770 --> 01:52:21.210
be mindful of your time but this ties into what

01:52:21.210 --> 01:52:23.050
we've been talking about we've we've got the

01:52:23.050 --> 01:52:25.510
you know either decriminalize or even legalize

01:52:25.510 --> 01:52:28.109
as far as how that will benefit the addicts and

01:52:28.109 --> 01:52:30.949
how that will help poor resources in and hopefully

01:52:30.949 --> 01:52:34.229
start healing people. Because, you know, not

01:52:34.229 --> 01:52:36.390
only is that the people that just simply buy

01:52:36.390 --> 01:52:38.970
drugs and, you know, aside from that functioning

01:52:38.970 --> 01:52:41.069
member of society, we also have the ripple effects

01:52:41.069 --> 01:52:44.170
of addiction causes, you know, robberies and

01:52:44.170 --> 01:52:47.109
burglaries and all these other things too. But

01:52:47.109 --> 01:52:51.270
watching. This kind of downward spiral that I've

01:52:51.270 --> 01:52:53.510
seen and all the violence and, like I said, the

01:52:53.510 --> 01:52:55.430
gang membership, and as you alluded to, whether

01:52:55.430 --> 01:52:57.930
it's the Hells Angels or the Crips or the Bloods

01:52:57.930 --> 01:53:02.489
or the crack epidemic, it's created so much crime

01:53:02.489 --> 01:53:04.770
because of the desperation of the people that

01:53:04.770 --> 01:53:06.869
are suffering and then the people that are making

01:53:06.869 --> 01:53:09.590
money from them. And then you look overseas.

01:53:10.090 --> 01:53:13.550
You talk about Mexico, El Salvador, Colombia,

01:53:13.949 --> 01:53:18.010
these countries that... Our illicit drug trade

01:53:18.010 --> 01:53:20.789
ultimately created a consumer that then empowered,

01:53:20.909 --> 01:53:23.289
you know, crime even in other countries. And

01:53:23.289 --> 01:53:25.529
then now we're turning around and saying they're

01:53:25.529 --> 01:53:27.970
bad people without looking in the mirror and

01:53:27.970 --> 01:53:29.989
say, hey, you know, our history created this

01:53:29.989 --> 01:53:32.770
in the first place. So just talk to me about,

01:53:32.829 --> 01:53:35.569
you know, if you believe this, I believe this.

01:53:36.029 --> 01:53:38.850
If there was a decriminalization or legalization

01:53:38.850 --> 01:53:42.390
of addiction, to be clear, not that, again, addicts,

01:53:42.390 --> 01:53:44.649
not the smugglers, when Portugal was found that

01:53:44.649 --> 01:53:46.789
they freed up all the resources to then attack

01:53:46.789 --> 01:53:48.970
those people because they weren't arresting addicts

01:53:48.970 --> 01:53:51.869
anymore, what would you see as far as the impact

01:53:51.869 --> 01:53:55.149
of crime within this country and then also some

01:53:55.149 --> 01:53:57.189
of the border problems that we're having as far

01:53:57.189 --> 01:53:59.109
as the wrong people trying to come into this

01:53:59.109 --> 01:54:00.989
country or the violence in their own country?

01:54:03.130 --> 01:54:08.149
Yeah, my... BA thesis at University of San Francisco

01:54:08.149 --> 01:54:11.050
was titled The Impact of Drug Use on the Crime

01:54:11.050 --> 01:54:15.069
Index. So I was able to show that so much of

01:54:15.069 --> 01:54:17.890
our crime and so many of our people in jail were

01:54:17.890 --> 01:54:21.869
in drug -related crimes, not necessarily the

01:54:21.869 --> 01:54:25.590
drug itself, but committing burglaries, car theft,

01:54:25.989 --> 01:54:33.170
scams, shoplifting, because they needed to raise

01:54:33.170 --> 01:54:37.710
money. for the illicit drug. Most of these drugs

01:54:37.710 --> 01:54:40.029
would be pennies on the dollars if they were

01:54:40.029 --> 01:54:47.529
legal. You go to the other end of the spectrum

01:54:47.529 --> 01:54:51.829
of legalization or decriminalization, the other

01:54:51.829 --> 01:55:00.880
end, which would be hardcore, really. Stiff enforcement.

01:55:01.300 --> 01:55:03.100
I'm looking for a word and I can't find it right

01:55:03.100 --> 01:55:10.220
now. But an example, when someone flew an airplane

01:55:10.220 --> 01:55:13.779
into a tower and killed thousands of people,

01:55:13.920 --> 01:55:19.779
we went full strength against that group. We

01:55:19.779 --> 01:55:22.619
went overseas. If they found one of those guys

01:55:22.619 --> 01:55:24.779
driving in a car, we'd take it out with a drone.

01:55:25.600 --> 01:55:28.659
We'd find a house where... The guy who planned

01:55:28.659 --> 01:55:31.520
the whole thing was living, and we took him out.

01:55:34.260 --> 01:55:40.859
What if we declared war a real war on drugs and

01:55:40.859 --> 01:55:44.699
started using drones overseas and taking out?

01:55:44.859 --> 01:55:48.659
They had to quit trying to just take them out.

01:55:48.760 --> 01:55:54.359
If someone comes into the country and is spreading

01:55:54.359 --> 01:55:58.250
fentanyl, And it's killing thousands of people.

01:55:58.289 --> 01:55:59.989
What's the difference between those thousands

01:55:59.989 --> 01:56:03.550
and the thousands in the tower? Fentanyl kills.

01:56:03.949 --> 01:56:07.329
It's no different than if you stood and just

01:56:07.329 --> 01:56:10.689
fired shots randomly into a crowd of people,

01:56:10.770 --> 01:56:12.310
you're going to kill some people. And that's

01:56:12.310 --> 01:56:14.489
what we're doing when we're spreading this fentanyl

01:56:14.489 --> 01:56:17.149
across the country. So if we took the other approach

01:56:17.149 --> 01:56:19.210
and just said, okay, it's the death penalty.

01:56:19.529 --> 01:56:21.729
And you're bringing that stuff into our country.

01:56:21.789 --> 01:56:23.310
You're killing people. We're coming after you.

01:56:23.369 --> 01:56:26.189
We're going to use drones. We're going to wipe

01:56:26.189 --> 01:56:28.350
out your homes. We're going to wipe out the laboratories.

01:56:28.949 --> 01:56:34.470
We're going to. Which would create a hell of

01:56:34.470 --> 01:56:37.329
an international problem. That's the problem.

01:56:37.949 --> 01:56:42.989
Yeah. Yeah. I don't think I don't think we're

01:56:42.989 --> 01:56:47.489
ever going to go hardcore in a fight against

01:56:47.489 --> 01:56:51.220
sworn drugs. It's just not going to happen. And

01:56:51.220 --> 01:56:55.579
I'm arguing this middle of the ground stuff would

01:56:55.579 --> 01:56:58.039
be completely eliminated. No one would be smuggling

01:56:58.039 --> 01:57:06.920
drugs across the country if we turn, for example,

01:57:06.979 --> 01:57:09.420
amphetamines over. Well, amphetamines are already

01:57:09.420 --> 01:57:14.760
made pharmaceutically. I mean, kids take Ritalin.

01:57:15.000 --> 01:57:18.439
Our military pilots on long missions take forms

01:57:18.439 --> 01:57:23.500
of amphetamines. So there is a, it's already

01:57:23.500 --> 01:57:27.439
in place. So if we made amphetamines much more

01:57:27.439 --> 01:57:32.020
easier to get, when I was in college, way before

01:57:32.020 --> 01:57:35.640
the war on drugs, I could go to my doctor and

01:57:35.640 --> 01:57:39.220
say, doc, I got an exam. I really need to cram

01:57:39.220 --> 01:57:41.420
this weekend. I need some help staying awake.

01:57:42.159 --> 01:57:44.819
They'd give you a prescription for amphetamines.

01:57:47.899 --> 01:57:51.880
When they started the war on drugs and DEA started

01:57:51.880 --> 01:57:56.779
clamping down on doctors prescribing medications,

01:57:57.300 --> 01:58:00.439
then it forced everyone to the illegal market.

01:58:00.680 --> 01:58:02.920
And on that subject, only because it just popped

01:58:02.920 --> 01:58:08.319
into my head, you know, when the war on drugs

01:58:08.319 --> 01:58:11.659
started, it took a while, but they started arresting

01:58:11.659 --> 01:58:15.079
a lot of doctors and nurses. And these are doctors

01:58:15.079 --> 01:58:18.640
and nurses who were using... a morphine -based

01:58:18.640 --> 01:58:24.619
product on a daily basis. Those doctors and nurses

01:58:24.619 --> 01:58:27.739
were never caught because of the way they were

01:58:27.739 --> 01:58:30.600
acting. No one ever said something wrong with

01:58:30.600 --> 01:58:33.439
that person on this reporting. They were only

01:58:33.439 --> 01:58:37.000
caught because of an audit of drug supplies.

01:58:37.399 --> 01:58:42.180
And someone says, whoa, our stock is lower than

01:58:42.180 --> 01:58:44.619
it should be. Someone's dipping into the supply

01:58:44.619 --> 01:58:49.310
here. It's the same thing when we started. You

01:58:49.310 --> 01:58:52.229
remember when there was that rash of athletes

01:58:52.229 --> 01:58:56.649
being kicked off teams or arrested for drug use?

01:58:58.590 --> 01:59:02.789
Initially, they weren't acting out on the influence

01:59:02.789 --> 01:59:06.489
of amphetamines or cocaine. They were using it

01:59:06.489 --> 01:59:09.670
to enhance their performance, which it does,

01:59:09.829 --> 01:59:13.100
by the way, amphetamines and cocaine. uh increase

01:59:13.100 --> 01:59:16.859
your reaction time they make you more alert uh

01:59:16.859 --> 01:59:23.880
they were caught because of a drug test not because

01:59:23.880 --> 01:59:29.779
of the effects of the drugs yeah and this is

01:59:29.779 --> 01:59:31.699
this is my point is that like you said if we

01:59:31.699 --> 01:59:34.060
can't Take drones. And obviously, there should

01:59:34.060 --> 01:59:36.619
be an element of wherever you can addressing

01:59:36.619 --> 01:59:38.520
the criminals that are at the heart of this.

01:59:38.579 --> 01:59:40.960
Because again, the violence, for example, in

01:59:40.960 --> 01:59:44.479
Mexico, you can't tell me that some of that isn't

01:59:44.479 --> 01:59:46.239
forcing people across our borders. So if we're

01:59:46.239 --> 01:59:48.560
talking about the immigration crisis, air quotes,

01:59:48.800 --> 01:59:51.939
then what are we doing to undo the mistakes that

01:59:51.939 --> 01:59:54.319
we've made that are negatively impacting the

01:59:54.319 --> 01:59:57.199
country? But I think you also supply and demand.

01:59:57.819 --> 02:00:00.319
If you want to hit them where it hurts, then

02:00:00.319 --> 02:00:03.800
you heal Americans. You know, I mean, look at

02:00:03.800 --> 02:00:06.159
the obesity crisis. I mean, you know, there's

02:00:06.159 --> 02:00:07.760
this whole claim of we're going to make America

02:00:07.760 --> 02:00:10.279
healthy again. Now, I haven't seen anything about

02:00:10.279 --> 02:00:12.439
that in the last six months. I haven't seen anything

02:00:12.439 --> 02:00:14.399
about that in the last 20 years. It's not about

02:00:14.399 --> 02:00:17.880
one side or the other. But when you make Americans

02:00:17.880 --> 02:00:20.359
healthy again, all this money that we need for

02:00:20.359 --> 02:00:23.060
education and first responder professions and

02:00:23.060 --> 02:00:26.220
all these other areas, it's already there. It's

02:00:26.220 --> 02:00:29.140
proactively investing in your people. And it's

02:00:29.140 --> 02:00:32.039
the same with this. If we invest in the mental

02:00:32.039 --> 02:00:34.840
health of our people and creating healthy, happy

02:00:34.840 --> 02:00:36.439
children, you know, all these things that we

02:00:36.439 --> 02:00:40.779
can do, then, you know, the number of addicts

02:00:40.779 --> 02:00:42.319
that you will have, whether it's a professional

02:00:42.319 --> 02:00:44.359
like a doctor or nurse or someone living under

02:00:44.359 --> 02:00:47.930
a bridge, is going to reduce dramatically. But

02:00:47.930 --> 02:00:49.750
the problem that we see in this country is they'll

02:00:49.750 --> 02:00:51.789
point to that one guy it didn't work on and go,

02:00:51.850 --> 02:00:54.069
oh, you see, it doesn't work. Or they'll do a

02:00:54.069 --> 02:00:56.369
Seattle model and say, we decriminalized it.

02:00:56.390 --> 02:00:58.109
It's like, okay, but what did you do to heal

02:00:58.109 --> 02:00:59.810
people? Oh, nothing. We just don't arrest them

02:00:59.810 --> 02:01:01.609
anymore. Well, of course, that's not going to

02:01:01.609 --> 02:01:04.710
work either. So I think this is it. As you said,

02:01:04.789 --> 02:01:07.289
the middle of the road conversation is there

02:01:07.289 --> 02:01:08.869
are countries around the world that have done

02:01:08.869 --> 02:01:11.409
this really well. Portugal has their model. I

02:01:11.409 --> 02:01:14.149
think Switzerland is one. I believe one of the

02:01:14.149 --> 02:01:16.470
either South or Central American countries has

02:01:16.470 --> 02:01:18.970
done really well. So why are we not learning

02:01:18.970 --> 02:01:21.430
from them and then creating a hybrid model that's

02:01:21.430 --> 02:01:25.090
even better that we then apply here? But what

02:01:25.090 --> 02:01:28.050
I know doesn't work is what you saw in your career

02:01:28.050 --> 02:01:30.850
and I saw in a much, much, much shorter career

02:01:30.850 --> 02:01:34.810
is sending everyone who's struggling with a mental

02:01:34.810 --> 02:01:39.069
health issue into the hands of a criminal. Well,

02:01:39.130 --> 02:01:41.529
we don't spend any money on it. We don't want

02:01:41.529 --> 02:01:44.310
to spend any money on it. It's because of our

02:01:44.310 --> 02:01:49.050
political system. I grew up kind of naive up

02:01:49.050 --> 02:01:52.130
until I until I got in the army. I believe that

02:01:52.130 --> 02:01:56.750
politicians were elected. And they they were

02:01:56.750 --> 02:02:00.409
going to do what was best for the country. They

02:02:00.409 --> 02:02:03.909
had the country's best. And of course, what I

02:02:03.909 --> 02:02:07.829
now know now is no politician has only two things

02:02:07.829 --> 02:02:11.970
he's interested in. One is getting elected. And

02:02:11.970 --> 02:02:15.300
one is getting reelected. And that's all they

02:02:15.300 --> 02:02:19.500
care about. And so they don't go out with these

02:02:19.500 --> 02:02:24.939
ideas and get sold on them and try to get the

02:02:24.939 --> 02:02:27.539
public behind them. They listen to what the public

02:02:27.539 --> 02:02:30.859
says and then they do it. And the public doesn't

02:02:30.859 --> 02:02:32.739
want to spend the money on it. They don't want

02:02:32.739 --> 02:02:35.619
to spend the money. You know, education, public

02:02:35.619 --> 02:02:38.659
awareness works. And let me give you a perfect

02:02:38.659 --> 02:02:44.010
example. Tobacco. Tobacco is the most addicting

02:02:44.010 --> 02:02:50.369
of all the drugs. In 1970, when we started to

02:02:50.369 --> 02:02:54.229
warn drugs, the use of tobacco was over 70%.

02:02:54.229 --> 02:03:01.029
Today, we're down to 13 % of the population smokes

02:03:01.029 --> 02:03:05.250
tobacco. And we did that not by kicking down

02:03:05.250 --> 02:03:09.390
doors, not by arresting anyone. We did it simply

02:03:09.390 --> 02:03:14.100
by education. in public awareness. And so pretty

02:03:14.100 --> 02:03:16.979
brutal PSAs, which worked, you know, the Marlboro

02:03:16.979 --> 02:03:19.300
man with a frickin hole in his throat, for example.

02:03:21.680 --> 02:03:31.319
Yeah. Yeah, Sonny. Sonny. Here we go again. The

02:03:31.319 --> 02:03:35.039
president of the chapter of the Oakland chapter

02:03:35.039 --> 02:03:38.779
of the Hells Angels. Yeah, what was his name?

02:03:38.840 --> 02:03:41.710
I arrested him, as you know. Anyway, yeah, he

02:03:41.710 --> 02:03:48.409
died with one of those. Terrible, terrible, terrible,

02:03:48.409 --> 02:03:52.890
terrible. So, yeah, the war on drugs needs to

02:03:52.890 --> 02:03:57.710
be addressed. And I'm not right here today necessarily

02:03:57.710 --> 02:03:59.989
advocating one way or the other. What I want

02:03:59.989 --> 02:04:02.949
to do is just get the facts out there. And I

02:04:02.949 --> 02:04:05.130
think the facts I've showed is the war on drugs

02:04:05.130 --> 02:04:08.630
is a failure. It would be very hard for anyone.

02:04:09.539 --> 02:04:13.739
Because every reason we started the war on drugs

02:04:13.739 --> 02:04:17.260
has been a failure. We haven't stopped drug use.

02:04:17.380 --> 02:04:19.939
We haven't stopped drug overdose. We haven't

02:04:19.939 --> 02:04:24.899
stopped the manufacturing. We've accomplished

02:04:24.899 --> 02:04:28.420
nothing. We've got this whole drug war industrial

02:04:28.420 --> 02:04:31.380
complex, though, that doesn't want to stop the

02:04:31.380 --> 02:04:35.560
war on drugs. The drug cartels do not want to

02:04:35.560 --> 02:04:39.189
stop the war on drugs. No, Al Capone and Meyer

02:04:39.189 --> 02:04:42.729
Lansky didn't want to stop the war, the prohibition,

02:04:42.729 --> 02:04:46.029
the war on alcohol. So they don't want to stop

02:04:46.029 --> 02:04:52.010
it. You know, DEA, it's a huge, huge, humongous,

02:04:52.010 --> 02:04:55.510
their budgets in the billions. They don't want

02:04:55.510 --> 02:05:00.289
to stop the war on drugs. It's their job. You

02:05:00.289 --> 02:05:06.680
know, drug counselors, it's their job. These

02:05:06.680 --> 02:05:09.460
court mandated clients where I said I had so,

02:05:09.539 --> 02:05:13.199
you know, I set up a program for that. And in

02:05:13.199 --> 02:05:15.420
my program, it came from the point of view of

02:05:15.420 --> 02:05:19.279
thought. And it's your thought about things that

02:05:19.279 --> 02:05:22.520
lead you to be depressed, that lead you to use

02:05:22.520 --> 02:05:27.659
drugs or lead you to drink. And AA pretty much

02:05:27.659 --> 02:05:30.689
had a string of hold on all those. court programs

02:05:30.689 --> 02:05:33.170
up until that time. And of course, they come

02:05:33.170 --> 02:05:35.229
from the point of view that once you're an addict,

02:05:35.310 --> 02:05:37.569
you're always an addict. Once an alcoholic, you're

02:05:37.569 --> 02:05:39.250
always an alcoholic. You know, hi, you know,

02:05:39.250 --> 02:05:42.270
my name is John and I'm an alcoholic. And I came

02:05:42.270 --> 02:05:44.569
from the point of view of that's kind of limiting,

02:05:44.710 --> 02:05:47.550
branding yourself like that for the rest of your

02:05:47.550 --> 02:05:51.470
life. And no, you can stand up one day and say,

02:05:51.590 --> 02:05:54.350
I had a problem, but I'm free and clear of it.

02:05:54.430 --> 02:05:57.149
But I read so much resistance. But there is so

02:05:57.149 --> 02:05:59.859
much money in the drug treatment program. the

02:05:59.859 --> 02:06:04.920
way it's run today. And most, I taught those

02:06:04.920 --> 02:06:07.680
classes. I would say the vast majority of those

02:06:07.680 --> 02:06:10.899
classes are not addicts. They're just people

02:06:10.899 --> 02:06:13.039
who got arrested. Traffic stopped. They had a

02:06:13.039 --> 02:06:15.560
small amount of drugs on them. They got arrested.

02:06:15.760 --> 02:06:17.460
And what they have to do is go to drug court

02:06:17.460 --> 02:06:20.840
for 13 weeks. That's what they were. And they

02:06:20.840 --> 02:06:23.239
pay money to go and they pay money to the therapist

02:06:23.239 --> 02:06:26.239
and they pay money to this. I mean, therapists

02:06:26.239 --> 02:06:28.729
have a role. But they also don't want to end

02:06:28.729 --> 02:06:33.750
the war on drugs. So the drug war industrial

02:06:33.750 --> 02:06:36.909
complex is big and hard to fight against. And

02:06:36.909 --> 02:06:42.250
you're just, when you're in a nation that's already

02:06:42.250 --> 02:06:45.270
so far in debt, it's basically broke. Nobody

02:06:45.270 --> 02:06:49.649
wants to spend money on programs that we know

02:06:49.649 --> 02:06:53.350
would work. They can't see, they just can't imagine

02:06:53.350 --> 02:06:57.810
just shutting down, just saying like, Trump has

02:06:57.810 --> 02:07:00.449
done on some other program. Just close it down.

02:07:00.489 --> 02:07:04.510
Shut it down. Close it out. Close the DEA down

02:07:04.510 --> 02:07:07.189
and let the local law enforcement handle it.

02:07:07.310 --> 02:07:10.789
That would be my first step. And then training

02:07:10.789 --> 02:07:19.369
and education. And get people's minds right.

02:07:19.630 --> 02:07:27.609
Why are they using to begin with? There's something

02:07:27.609 --> 02:07:30.310
wrong in our society where a kid sits down in

02:07:30.310 --> 02:07:33.029
front of the TV. Mom sets him down, gives him

02:07:33.029 --> 02:07:36.029
something to do, get the kid out of their hair.

02:07:36.189 --> 02:07:38.149
And the kid's watching TV and he's watching these

02:07:38.149 --> 02:07:41.989
advertisements about how if you take this drug,

02:07:42.189 --> 02:07:44.270
you're going to feel better. You'll be happier.

02:07:44.850 --> 02:07:47.409
And then we wonder why they get in high school

02:07:47.409 --> 02:07:49.949
and they start buying drugs. This will make you

02:07:49.949 --> 02:07:54.210
happier. This will make you feel better. You

02:07:54.210 --> 02:07:59.060
know, I don't. I don't say that you can, with

02:07:59.060 --> 02:08:02.579
a cognitive approach and the way I write about

02:08:02.579 --> 02:08:06.060
it in my book, I don't say that you can prevent

02:08:06.060 --> 02:08:09.640
sad, troubling, negative thoughts. Because they

02:08:09.640 --> 02:08:12.880
will occur. Those thoughts of stress and trauma

02:08:12.880 --> 02:08:16.199
will come up. But when you realize that you're

02:08:16.199 --> 02:08:18.659
the source of that thinking, you can nip it in

02:08:18.659 --> 02:08:20.899
the bud. You can change it. I catch myself all

02:08:20.899 --> 02:08:22.340
the time. I'll start to think about something

02:08:22.340 --> 02:08:31.579
and I'll just say, hey, stop it. You had a good

02:08:31.579 --> 02:08:36.140
sentence for it. There is value in those stressful

02:08:36.140 --> 02:08:43.500
situations, as hard as it might be. A powerful

02:08:43.500 --> 02:08:47.079
example for me was growing up because of my age.

02:08:47.439 --> 02:08:52.760
I grew up with kids my age whose parents had

02:08:52.760 --> 02:08:56.069
that tattoo on their arm. Holocaust survivors.

02:08:56.949 --> 02:09:03.970
One particular family from Poland. When I was

02:09:03.970 --> 02:09:08.250
middle -aged, when my mom got to the point where

02:09:08.250 --> 02:09:10.850
we had to put her in assisted living for a while,

02:09:10.970 --> 02:09:17.289
there was a large group of Holocaust survivors

02:09:17.289 --> 02:09:20.909
at that assisted living home. And I sat at the

02:09:20.909 --> 02:09:23.489
lunch table on many occasions and talked to them.

02:09:24.880 --> 02:09:27.479
And a lot of them carried a lot of bitterness

02:09:27.479 --> 02:09:32.260
and resentment. And understandably so. But I

02:09:32.260 --> 02:09:35.380
met many who, despite what they experienced in

02:09:35.380 --> 02:09:38.880
the concentration camps, they were happy. They

02:09:38.880 --> 02:09:41.859
had found meaning and joy in life. They still

02:09:41.859 --> 02:09:44.760
believed in the goodness of mankind. And these

02:09:44.760 --> 02:09:47.939
people focused on rebuilding their lives, finding

02:09:47.939 --> 02:09:50.859
joy in their family and their community. making

02:09:50.859 --> 02:09:53.840
the world a better place. They stayed focused

02:09:53.840 --> 02:09:56.100
on the future. In other words, they were driving

02:09:56.100 --> 02:09:57.779
down the highway. Once they got out of that,

02:09:57.920 --> 02:10:03.100
they were released from the camps. Wherever country

02:10:03.100 --> 02:10:06.020
they went to, the United States, they got back

02:10:06.020 --> 02:10:07.960
to life. They got their hands on the steering

02:10:07.960 --> 02:10:12.180
wheel, and they focused ahead. They were not

02:10:12.180 --> 02:10:14.659
looking in the rearview mirror all the time like

02:10:14.659 --> 02:10:19.760
a lot of them were. Eddie Jack, who he... He

02:10:19.760 --> 02:10:23.119
survived the Holocaust and dedicated the rest

02:10:23.119 --> 02:10:28.119
of his life to promoting kindness. Amazing man.

02:10:28.220 --> 02:10:31.779
He proclaimed himself the happiest man on earth.

02:10:32.939 --> 02:10:35.899
And the difference between those two groups is

02:10:35.899 --> 02:10:39.579
along that continuum is how they chose to think

02:10:39.579 --> 02:10:43.520
about it and what they chose. What was the movie?

02:10:45.229 --> 02:10:50.449
True story of Holocaust survivor Rubino Salmoni.

02:10:50.810 --> 02:10:55.710
Life is beautiful. That's a great movie. He keeps

02:10:55.710 --> 02:10:59.869
a good attitude because his son was also in that

02:10:59.869 --> 02:11:04.029
camp through the whole experience. So who we

02:11:04.029 --> 02:11:07.369
are, everything about us is the result of thought.

02:11:09.069 --> 02:11:12.729
And the one thought that can change the quality

02:11:12.729 --> 02:11:16.310
of your life is the idea that you. Control your

02:11:16.310 --> 02:11:20.949
thoughts. Absolutely. Well, I know you have a

02:11:20.949 --> 02:11:24.090
couple of books, Just One Thought and then Honorable

02:11:24.090 --> 02:11:27.010
Intentions. So for people listening, give them

02:11:27.010 --> 02:11:29.510
an overview of each and then where can they find

02:11:29.510 --> 02:11:35.750
them? Honorable Intentions is my life story.

02:11:36.449 --> 02:11:40.470
And of course, the conclusion is failed policies,

02:11:40.689 --> 02:11:43.689
failed policy of Vietnam, failed policy of the

02:11:43.689 --> 02:11:50.850
war on drugs. And that's Honorable Intentions

02:11:50.850 --> 02:11:53.970
by Russell Jones. My full name is Robert Russell

02:11:53.970 --> 02:11:59.590
Jones. Only the IRS usually uses it. The other

02:11:59.590 --> 02:12:03.229
book that I've used in my court stuff is called

02:12:03.229 --> 02:12:06.630
Just One Thought, and that's by Robert Russell

02:12:06.630 --> 02:12:11.810
Jones. Brilliant. And that book deals with the

02:12:11.810 --> 02:12:15.130
stuff I was talking about here. I give examples

02:12:15.130 --> 02:12:18.210
of how we use thought in our lives and then how

02:12:18.210 --> 02:12:22.090
it affects us, how we're wrong. Our memories

02:12:22.090 --> 02:12:26.029
are wrong. They really are. We can get all worked

02:12:26.029 --> 02:12:28.710
up about that divorce, but you really stop and

02:12:28.710 --> 02:12:32.270
think about it. There's some roles that we play

02:12:32.270 --> 02:12:35.270
in the divorce. We want to be bitter with the

02:12:35.270 --> 02:12:38.189
spouse, but there's roles we play, and we need

02:12:38.189 --> 02:12:40.390
to remember those. We tend to want to shut them

02:12:40.390 --> 02:12:47.050
out. It's a short book, very interesting, but

02:12:47.050 --> 02:12:53.489
short. I think they'd like it. Brilliant. And

02:12:53.489 --> 02:12:57.210
where can they find those? Amazon. I'm sorry.

02:12:57.489 --> 02:13:01.510
That's okay. Amazon .com, Honorable Intentions

02:13:01.510 --> 02:13:07.770
by Russell Jones. Brilliant. Well, I want to

02:13:07.770 --> 02:13:10.840
thank you so much. It's been such an amazing

02:13:10.840 --> 02:13:12.399
conversation. Truly, I could talk to you for

02:13:12.399 --> 02:13:14.079
another two hours, no problem. There's so many

02:13:14.079 --> 02:13:15.859
other things from your past that I'd love to

02:13:15.859 --> 02:13:18.100
unpack and maybe we'll do a part two down the

02:13:18.100 --> 02:13:20.899
road. But just everything that the perspective

02:13:20.899 --> 02:13:23.619
that you've had with the life story that you

02:13:23.619 --> 02:13:26.140
have on some of these issues that I truly believe,

02:13:26.359 --> 02:13:29.039
you know, we can change, we can improve, we can

02:13:29.039 --> 02:13:31.420
kind of take a step back, whether it's our own

02:13:31.420 --> 02:13:33.739
personal well -being and mental health or whether

02:13:33.739 --> 02:13:36.340
it's advocating for that on a national level.

02:13:37.149 --> 02:13:39.430
I want to thank you so much for being so generous

02:13:39.430 --> 02:13:41.529
with your time and coming on the Behind the Shield

02:13:41.529 --> 02:13:45.630
podcast today. Well, I enjoyed it. It was my

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pleasure. And I would like to come back. I have,

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you know, at my age, that's all I have is time.

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So have fun with your time.