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with joel totoro and wes barnett welcome to the
behind the shield podcast as always my name is
james geae ring and this week it is my absolute
honor to welcome on the show integration wellness
coach and part of the firefly vr team brian kleindienst
Now, in this conversation, we discuss a host
of topics from his journey into the world of
teaching, sales, ketamine therapy, ayahuasca,
the power of virtual reality for breathwork,
integration, and meditation, sleep, surfing,
and so much more. Now, before we get to this
incredible conversation, as I say every week,
please just take a moment. Go to whichever app
you listen to this on. subscribe to the show,
leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single
five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,
therefore making it easier for others to find.
And this is a free library of over 1 ,100 episodes
now. So all I ask in return is that you help
share these incredible men and women's stories
so I can get them to every single person on planet
Earth who needs to hear them. So with that being
said, I introduce to you Brian Kleindienst. Enjoy.
Well, Brian, I want to start by saying thank
you so much for taking the time and coming on
the Behind the Shield podcast today. Appreciate
you having me. It's an honor. I'm looking forward
to having our discussion here and just talking
a little bit about everything from behavioral
health and wellness, virtual opportunities to
different integrative medicines. talk about our
beloved first responders. So I'm thrilled to
be here. So thank you. Brilliant. So I would
love to start at the very beginning of your journey.
So tell me where you were born and tell me a
little bit about your family dynamic, what your
parents did, how many siblings. Yeah, sure. I
was born and raised in Southern California. I'm
first generation actually born here in California.
My father was born in Nazi Germany. They were
Poles that were incarcerated and put in working
camps. And my grandfather was just an amazing
human. He knew four different languages, you
know, actually. uh the german uh or the i should
say the allies broke lines and he saved uh this
town that he was incarcerated called schiffelbach
from being essentially burned and he knew english
and told that to the allies like hey even though
we've gone through some bad stuff um generally
these were some good people yeah the nazis had
had taken a a lot uh of our lifestyle and life
away but you know have some compassion so it's
a really compelling my grandfather it was just
a amazing human and and and then you know the
same kind of goes with what was embedded with
me about um from my father it was just being
you know compassionate and uh serving you know
and Working towards others, you know, be a purpose
and service. And so my father was a Vietnam vet
and a retired firefighter. So I kind of grew
up in that ethos, right, of serving others, you
know, and seeing and being in it. And then my
mother, she was born in Mexico, in Yucatan. And
so I had this. yin and yang of these cultural
differences. But just a beautiful family that
I grew up in. I traveled to Mexico over the summers
and hang out with my relatives in Merida before
Cozumel and Cancun were what they were. I got
to see it develop. So I've got a really interesting
background, to say the least, from my family
lineage and my my friends all call me um i'm
a beanpole so uh it took me a second yeah so
a lot of good jokes and and just uh a great great
family and and you know and my parents grew up
in l .a and then kind of migrated they met together
they met at 16 and 14 they've been together ever
since so really you know tight family dynamic
um you know, from both sides, from my, the client
Dean side and the when field side. Um, so yeah,
really strong family, um, um, you know, upbringing
and, and, and community, right. Big family traditions,
you know, Christmas is always huge for us. I
have two, we have two massive dinners, Polish
based and Spanish based. And, um, and yeah, and
then, you know, my parents met and then moved
down to Further into Southern California, I live
in South Orange County now and love it. I'm a
big avid surfer, you know, love being outdoors
and mountain biking. And I've got two beautiful
kids that didn't have a choice either. They are
indoctrinated into surfing and camping and doing
everything we can outdoors. you know, we're always
in motion. I think that's important, you know,
and then, um, uh, and then unfortunately my,
uh, my wife passed away last year. Um, and that
was tragically and out of the blue. Um, she,
um, was at my son's dive, uh, event in, uh, uh,
West Virginia. He was at nationals. He's a, he's
a diver, uh, for the Natadors here in Southern
California. Um, and unbeknownst to her or us
or anyone um she had uh this big tumor um uh
you know in her lower intestine colon area and
it had been there for 10 years and the cancer
what wasn't what had killed her it was the uh
the sepsis that set in so fast right and then
they couldn't figure out how her body was shutting
down you know with dialysis and, and, you know,
they had five or six ER, um, uh, or, you know,
doctors working on her at its, or I should say
staff. Um, and it, it was just out of the blue
and, and, and life hits you really quick in the
face, you know, um, as you know, as a, as a firefighter
and first responder, you know, things can change
at a moment. So Yeah, it's definitely been a
challenging year. But it goes back to kind of
my family, you know, and those roots and that
love and community and support. And now we have
a bigger family. You know, we've always had a
big family, but now, you know, really leaning
on to on others that want to help, you know,
from from the friends group and the sports groups
and the internal family that. the main family.
And so, um, yeah, it's, it's definitely, um,
been, uh, you know, I I've, I've learned and
I only learned through, you know, what happened
to me five years ago, which I thought was the
greatest kind of gift, but it was the most painful
was I, I suffered from, uh, really bad depression
and anxiety. Uh, and I was just, uh, really lost.
And, and that, that at that time I thought was
the hardest thing I could go through was just
being in this, uh, this hell of, of being inside
my head, you know, and couldn't get out of it.
Um, and I did, I eventually did. I, I, you know,
I, I immersed myself into, um, you know, alternative,
uh, healing modalities and became a. integration
coach and changed my lifestyle changed the way
i was doing things but stepped into the the edge
of like being vulnerable and working on myself
and going through psychotherapy and all those
things right um and if i hadn't gone through
that personal hell there's no way i would have
got through you know and i'm getting through
i'm not got i haven't got through i'm getting
going through it right but um I had these amazing
tools that have helped facilitate, you know,
through this, this pain and suffering. And then
also like having the capacity to look at my kids
and look at how durable and resilient they are,
you know, and learning from that. So yeah, come
full circle, you know. Everything happens for
a reason, and that's a messed up reason, but
I couldn't have got through what anyone goes
through when you lose someone of that, your loved
one of that close in nature. If I hadn't gone
through my own personal hell, I don't think I
could have gotten through it as the way I have.
everything. And I work in the present moment.
I try to be as present as possible because we
don't know when our last breath or moment will
be here. And there's no point ruminating about
the past, what I should have, could have done
or be in the future, you know, is like where
I need to be or what I could be doing. Right.
So, so yeah, man, kind of heavy to start here,
but. But that's kind of it in a summation of
my life. And there's more, obviously. But yeah,
that's kind of where I've been. The sad thing
is, you know, we say, oh, it's a downer, it's
heavy, it's whatever. But this is life. And this
is why I ask these early life questions. Because,
I mean, so many of us have a backstory and normally,
you know, it plays into modern day as well. So
firstly, I'm so, so sorry to hear about your
wife. I mean, that must be crushing. And I want
to get to that and that healing journey. Yeah,
sure. Going all the way back to Nazi Germany
and Poland and then the same kind of generation
in Mexico as well with this incredibly mature
lens that's been through such highs and such
lows now in 2025. Yeah. what are your reflections
as far as the multi -generational trauma because
i'm sure you know what what your grandparents
brought from each of those and then your father
in the fire service in vietnam you know when
in our professions a lot of times we say oh well
james you were on that horrible you know fire
or you were in fallujah or you know whatever
the thing is And I think where we miss a lot
of these veterans and first responders is, well,
what happened to you before you put the uniform
on? And then I'm realizing now, well, also what
happened to your dad and what happened to your
granddad? So, you know, talk to me about any
awakenings as far as the impact of generations
upon you as you were going through your own struggles.
Yeah. No, that's a great question. And I, you
know, I guess I, A hundred percent. There's generational
trauma. I'm going to say that right now. It took
me a while to realize it until I hit my mid forties
because I, I'd seen what was going on, you know,
with my entire family, my aunts, both my aunt,
my uncle, my two uncles suffered from anxiety
and depression. Right. And they weren't in. the
uh arms forces right uh both are psychologists
and therapists it's it's crazy you know and then
i i saw the the trials and tribulations that
my my grandfather went through the just crazy
ptsd you know and and it really he was good at
kind of burying it and masking it because he
had you know he's raising four kids from you
know a migrant life right and and and raised
four beautiful, uh, children, you know, that
are all successful. And, um, and then when he
got, I was probably in my, when I got married
in my mid twenties or no, when I was 30, excuse
me. Um, he really re kind of regressed and, and
became really, um, He was not his outgoing person.
It hit him really hard. It hit him his whole
life. He never forgot it. It was a different
kind of him where he wouldn't leave the house.
He didn't want to talk to anyone. I was talking
to my dad, trying to figure this out. I didn't
understand mental health as much as I do now.
That was 25 years ago. And then, and then it
hit me, you know, in my mid forties. And I know
biologically is we can't run from our story.
Eventually you're going to have to face it. Right.
And, and there's, and then there's only so much
compartmentalizing you can do. And I was good
at that. I was really good at compartmentalizing
all the shit that I was. processing. As a young
adult, I was always a high achiever. I was an
adrenaline junkie. I mean, I did 20 some odd
triathlons. I surfed big waves. I skateboarded.
I rode BMX. I mountain biked. I did everything
that you possibly could that just pushed yourself.
And, and then work career, same, same thing.
I was in a, I was in medical device sales and,
you know, just wanting to achieve, achieve, achieve
and check every check, check every box off there
was, you know, house, kids, vacation, cars, blah,
blah, blah. Right. And then I was like, none
of this makes me happy. None of it, you know,
and then realizing, gosh, what my. grandmother
and grandfather went through and my father you
know uh it's definitely passed through in through
generation to generation that and i and i thought
that was kind of a i don't know excuse i guess
if you will you know and then i i was like wow
it happened to my my aunt and then my two uncles
and my father and and then myself all about the
same age in their 40s Right. I'm 53. I'll be
53. Jeez. Yeah. I'll be 53 next month. So, so
yeah, it was, that was a big awakening is like,
this is real. This is absolutely real, you know,
and, and how, how, how am I going to work through
this and, you know, being open to. processes
that were foreign to me meaning i was i was used
to being a lone wolf i just that's i was actually
that called that work like you know that's brian
he'll just work on his own he'll just do it himself
you know and that was just kind of my makeup
but i was missing community you know and and
people and help um around me i i got it but i
was more just like hyper focused on you know
completing X, Y, and Z and getting it done my
way. And it was pretty good, but it wasn't as,
you know, open and nurturing as I should have
been. And that was destroying me too. And then
I was suffering from, you know, just always thinking
about what I could be doing or should be doing,
you know, and I was never happy in that place
in time, like you and I would have a conversation,
but I wasn't. listening i was oh i got to go
on to the next email or task or you know get
on a plane or work with someone or get on a surf
trip or whatever it was you know i was totally
dissociated you know so it's interesting how
a lot of us i use the word us myself included
um you know you don't realize that you're using
busyness to distract you from things that you
should be addressing And so my community especially
will have what we affectionately refer to as
the overtime horse that will take all the overtime
in the world. And you take a step back and say,
well, why are you not going home to your family?
And, you know, in every case, I would argue,
because if you're in a terrible relationship,
they need to address that. And if you love your
kids and your wife or your husband, then I would
argue that you're. You're busy when you're at
a fire station, and so you don't want that time
where you just sit and contemplate and actually
see the things that need to be seen. And to pull
a beautiful proverb from your Mexican side of
the family, it goes, they tried to bury us. They
didn't know that we were seeds. And it's perfect.
If they're in there, it is going to come out
at some point. And we'll get into, obviously,
psychedelics and some of these other things.
A lot of times, though, people don't even realize
it's there. So that generational trauma, it's
not an excuse. I always use the phrase reasons,
not excuses. It is going to have an impact on
you. But once you identify it, once you see it,
imagine a sniper in the dark and someone turns
the lights on. Oh, there he is. I can get him
now. Now you have the ability to act. understanding
that all of us are going to have struggles and
it doesn't mean that it's going to make you weaker.
If unaddressed, it will make you weaker. If addressed,
I believe that truly is resilience is post -traumatic
growth. But I mean, in my family, I mean, there's
all kinds of horrendous stuff in my parents,
grandparents, et cetera. And, you know, I think
everyone else has that too. I haven't met anyone
yet who, if you go back two or three generations,
it's just Disney life. So I think these are these
are so, so important. And with our as we sit
here now, we're almost the same age. Our grandparents
went through a world war. How can you walk away
from that unscathed? But we call them the greatest
generation. We said they just rolled their sleeves
up. They were fine. They went back to work. And
that's bollocks. They did not. They were not
fine because you cannot be fine after that kind
of massive international trauma. So unpacking
this and identifying, you know, these kind of
through lines, I think then empowers us, you
know, our generation to do the work so that we
don't pass it on to our children. Oh, yeah, 100
percent. And and that's what's like you said,
just, you know, the this generation that went
through a world war and, you know. just basically
said, yeah, roll your sleeves off, ignore it.
And that's, you know, then it's, it's kind of
ruled itself generation after generation in that,
in the first responder veteran world is like
the stigma of like, no, I, I'm a warrior. I can't,
I can't let anyone know what's really going on
inside, you know, which is crazy because, uh,
You know, it's only going to nurture itself into
just this self -destruction, you know, and you're
just going to cave in. And eventually what we've
perpetuated is more this prescriptive kind of
way of helping each other. Right. Rather than
being proactive and getting to, like you said,
the root, the root, that seed, like, where is
this all coming from? you know so um so yeah
like i you know i saw you know you know each
one of my um relatives suffer from some sort
you know whether it's substance abuse or you
know whatever crutch that they had you know it
was it was that mechanism to just um bury bury
bury and then hopefully you know i'll come out
the other side you know one day and i'll be fine
but it That never happens. That's an impossibility.
So yeah, it's definitely real and not something
to ignore, but to, again, get to the root of
where you're feeling that dysregulation and where
it's truly coming from within yourself. Absolutely.
Well, we're going to talk about what you're doing
today and how that's going to benefit firefighters.
But going back to your early life, what do you
remember as far as being the child of a firefighter
and the pros and cons of your dad's career at
that point? Yeah, definitely, you know, you know,
this in just kind of like and I carried it, too,
as I was watching this kind of like. indestructible
person you know that can do anything you know
and and um and but but just just full of um you
know bravado and strength you know and courage
you know all those things um you know being gone
you know uh missing him uh you know those days
and times of hey check this out i did i caught
this fish or you know i got this good wave you
know what you know this game uh that i was uh
at playing soccer or whatever you know um but
i understood you know it was uh it was for you
know a good cause. And I, I kind of understood
that as young as I was, I was like very, you
know, he was always on the pedestal for, for
me, you know, there. Um, and, um, and, and, and
he was very present, you know, when he was home.
Right. But, but then there was, he had his own
kind of things that he was working with that
I could see from Vietnam to, you know, um, home
life and and and work life right like that that
distinction was totally different you know everything's
slowing down at home and it's like you know like
a like a a trapped uh uh you know mouse in a
in a mouse trap you know just bouncing off um
so so yeah a lot of different you know memories
of that um but but you know again um all good
for me and, um, you know, and, and always, you
know, taught me about, you know, self -reliance,
you know, hard work, you know, being gritty,
um, you know, so yeah, it was, uh, it was, it
was a good way to, to, to grow for sure. And,
and learn some real valuable life lessons early
as well. The, you know, parents not being able
to be there. I mean, no, you know, person can
be there at every single event, obviously, but
that's something that I'm really trying to work
towards because the work week has just got longer
and longer and longer as we recently were so
understaffed. And this is the thing that you
hear from children over and over again, whether
it's your generation or way through today, it's
that you don't hear them say, I was worried that
dad was going to be killed in the fire. You hear
them say dad or mom are never home. And it is
a noble cause, but that doesn't mean that it
has to be run by a skeleton crew. If the banker
works 42 hours, if the grocery clerk works 40
hours, whatever it is, why are the people that
we're calling on our worst day working 56, 80
hours a week? So this is what I'm trying to get
the fire service to understand collectively.
And one of many voices is to be like, yeah, you
should be a firefighter. You should be proud.
You absolutely sacrifice your time when you're
needed. There should also be the kind of staffing
where you should be home as much as the people
that work in the town, the people that make the
decisions in the administration building. So
I hope we're going to see that, that the next
generation of children will have their parents
home a lot more. 100%. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Yeah,
it's a complicated dynamic. And like you said,
the economics of it. unfortunately out or outweighing
what real life is about you know and and the
value of life you know i guess you you saw what
was uh that fired the was in massachusetts you
know in the um retirement home um oh god yeah
i killed all those people yeah where there was
30 off -duty um fired or firefighters that came
to help because they were all understaffed like
you had said so they said you know the response
i'm pretty probably wouldn't better if they were
up to full staff and not having to pull people
out of their homes to come and help so yeah i
mean that's a prime example you know um uh just
misdirecting uh what's truly needed and valued
um which is And, you know, getting them the proper
resources, you know, to work these long hours
or these hours. Right. So, yeah, it's it's it's
crazy that we're we're still in the state along
our entire country. Yeah. The false economy is
astounding as well. I think it was three years,
if I'm not mistaken, in three years, L .A., L
.A. F .D. I think it was the city of L .A. Their
overtime budget was a billion dollars with a
B. A B, yeah, not a million. In three years.
So basically, you know, 333 -ish million a year
on overtime. And this is, again, what you're
trying. I don't understand how the financial
gurus in these organizations are not identifying.
It's like if you put that money in to hiring
another shift and give them a 42 -hour work week,
the money is already there. 300 million. It's
just proactively investing. But I won't go too
deep down that rabbit hole. But it is, it's,
you know, it's insanity that a, you know, borderline,
you know, dum -dum from England can see this.
But, you know, I mean, I'm sure the financial
people in LA are probably earning, you know,
hundreds of thousands of dollars for their job.
And I don't, I just don't get it. Working people
into the ground is a false economy. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. It's... bean counters not understanding
math and work and labor force and and costs and
operations you know it's the wrong people it's
the bureaucrats in there that don't have a good
idea on operationally how you know first responders
work and they they need to collaborate more than
be these separate silos they've been working
in silos and that's that's the issue you know
collectively and that's government as as a whole
anyway i mean it's it's waste absolutely well
speaking of careers when you were in the high
school age what were you dreaming of becoming
oh wow um you know i i i was so into um well
just into surfing i was but i knew i wouldn't
be a pro pro surfer but i was like i'm gonna
i want to do anything but get a real job. And,
uh, and so I knew that wasn't real and I wasn't
going to sit long with my dad. Um, but I always,
I always dreamed about helping that. That was
it. Like no matter what I was going to be ingrained
with working with someone in some capacity, I
always loved that, uh, symbiotic relationship
and what it was in that time. I didn't know.
I didn't know, but, um, but I ended up getting
a degree. I never really utilized, but it was
in the pathway of helping. I got a degree in
speech pathology and audiology and then came
out of school, um, went to Europe backpack by
myself for four months, had an epiphany like,
Nope, I'm going to go into teaching. And so I,
I, I went into teaching and then, um, That was
a great experience, but I hated going back to
the government, the bureaucracy of things that
just destroyed my fever for it. I loved the interaction
of being a teacher and helping. I taught high
school students, so that was really cool. I hear
this young kid teaching these high school students,
and I looked about as... as as as old as they
did so there was confusion like he's a teacher
um but but you know i loved that aspect of uh
modeling and and um figuring out problem solving
and working with them you know but they actually
killed me uh and got out yeah it's so sad my
son just graduated from high school and i gotta
give i always give credit to the the teachers
that he's had Despite the environment they work
in, he's actually had an amazing academic journey
with so many. He was actually recounting it the
other day. I mean, 10, 12 great teachers in his
journey so far that made a difference in his
life. But you watch the standardized tests. I
mean, I remember cringing. I think it was in
elementary school, almost certain. These kids
are sitting in front of a computer for like two,
three hours. And, you know, so that they can
do a test. It's not really about their academic
achievement. It's to fulfill some bullshit parameters
that that school can then get funding. And I
had, conversely, Pasi Sahlberg on the show, who's
from Finland. And now he tours talking about
the Finnish education system. And, you know,
if you don't perform well in America, you get,
you know, the budget cut. You get less money.
In Finland, if it's an area where, you know,
maybe there's more. chance of struggling in that
particular community, they bolster it, they give
it more, you know, support, more funding, more
teachers, so they can elevate that community
as well. So you listen how, you know, the, the
organizations are the nations that do it really
well. And they're always at the top of that kind
of, you know, success list. And it's just so
different. But it's not that we don't have great
teachers, because I know great teachers. It's
just we shackle their hands with this kind of
bureaucracy, like you said. Yeah. yeah it's my
my wife was a teacher 25 years uh teacher of
the year two times in her elementary school just
just had a master's in reading um taught outside
the you know had to teach to the curriculum and
and the mandates but she always stretched more
like her of herself like she was working seven
days a week it was it was non -stop like she
was passionate about like getting these kids
more than what the standardized testing is. She's
like, you know, this isn't real life. You know,
she, she created reading programs that the school
and district didn't have. You know, she like
at her celebration of life, we had 500 people
come to her celebration, right? Like students
flew from 25 years ago in, you know, like just
insane. And to your point, We have beautiful
teachers. We have great teachers. It's just the
system itself is so broken. I think in the 70s,
Carter started the Department of Education, right?
And that was like, you know, what hampered everything
was that the central government took over the
education when it should be done stateside because
the states know more about. the student populations
and demographics, right. Then the government,
which is a million miles away from what's going
on. And I think I, and I, I don't know the exact
number, but it's been 10 to $20 trillion or maybe
more lost, you know, from that, that composition
of the set in the seventies. where we're at the
bottom of the barrel in aptitude in the entire
world, which is insane. And I think it's, I want
to say it's about $30 trillion that we've invested
since the 70s in that department. And we're at
the bottom. Yeah. I mean, again, going back to
what we were talking about with firefighter staffing,
this is what I see over and over again. I mean,
I've said this many times on here. I come from
a country that when I was young, National health
was thriving, but it was a very active nation.
Sports were a big part of school, and a lot of
people carried on playing sports after they graduated,
and food was still arguably food. And so if you
have a tax -based system and that inspires you
to make your nation healthy, well, you save money
hand over fist because you keep people healthy.
You just use the tax for pregnancies. palliative
care for the elderly and cancer and all these
things that you know that that no one can can
um foresee like you said but you look at our
health care and people you know scream about
increasing taxes and all that stuff and it's
like we don't need another penny we need to go
in and fix that where the money is being wasted
and you know after the the pandemic There was
one truth, you know, the sicker and fatter you
are, the higher chance there is of you dying,
period. I don't care if you believe in vaccines
or Chinese, whatever it is. That is a hard, cold
fact. And if you smoke, you're higher, you know,
you're also more likely to die. So address those.
You know, we were told they were going to make
America healthy again. And what have we done?
Removed red food dye in six months. Congratulations.
That's groundbreaking. So this is the problem
is that the money is always there. The money
is downstream in all these areas, including education.
Our teachers shouldn't have to beg the parents
for tissues and pencils and paper. And then especially
like you said, and then we end up at the bottom.
But what do we do? We beat our chest and we say
the greatest country in the world. Well, the
politicians do. And they get people to believe
that. It's like, no, we're not. And that's OK.
There are some things that are broken and there
are some other countries that are doing it really
well. And there's some things that we do really
well. But if you walk around believing that guy
or that woman or whoever is saying at that time
that everything is amazing and we're the best,
of course, we're not going to fix it. But if
you take a step back and you look at the statistics,
like you said, with education, with obesity,
with the opioid addiction. We've got so much
that we need to do. But again, the money is there
because when we have this reactive financial
corruption that we have. Some people are taking
that money. You know, William Morris, Purdue
Farmer, you know, the weapons bank, they're all
they're making a shitload of money. It's the
nation that's suffering. It's the teachers and
firefighters and soldiers and sailors and all
these other people. And I'm hoping that there's
going to be some sort of awakening finally, where
people realizing like, look, we we need to roll
a lot of these things back. We were an amazing,
very healthy country in the 50s, for example.
So we can get back there. Oh, yeah. It's crazy.
Even like, you know, taking it back to the government
side, I think from the VA or the amount of prescription
drugs just in the VA given out to the vets was
something like $309 billion of prescriptive costs.
Right. And then of the. Of the 900 ,000, I think,
that are in the VA, let's call it a billion,
I think it's almost $17 billion in treatment
for mental health and wellness issues. So, yeah,
the money's there. It's just being funneled downstream
when the shit's already happened, right? We're
prescribing something that is... been going on
for hundreds of or you know 20 30 40 50 years
and doing nothing about it and you know what's
that adage if you keep doing the same what's
the definition of insanity you know well you're
doing the same thing over and over again so yeah
it's just just insane absolutely well speaking
of that you touched on you know your own journey
um as far as you know some of the kind of generational
trauma and the mental health side Talk to me
firstly from an occupational point of view. How
did you find yourself going through the medical
device world into ketamine psychedelics, that
kind of thing? Yeah. Yeah. It was, you know,
real transformative in a way that, you know,
I remember the last day of this. device company
I was working for. It was more of a, at this
point it was a SAS company. It was a software
automated company where I basically sold to see,
Hey, I'm not coming back. And he said, well,
what do you need some time off? I'm like, yeah,
I need some time. He said, do you need a month
off? I'm like, no. He's like, you need two months.
I can do that. I'm like, no. He's like, how much
time do you need? I'm like, I don't know. I need
a lot of time. And he goes, do you want a sabbatical?
I'm like, yeah, absolutely. And I knew when I
said that I wasn't coming back. And I didn't.
I didn't go back. I never went back into that
field. And I went and worked. And then I was
seeing a therapist. And she's like, you ready
to do some work? And I'm like, yeah, let's go.
And she's like, all right, let's. Let's go to
an outpatient group therapy. So I went to an
eight -week outpatient, five days a week, five
hours a day, very intense. And then she's also,
hey, what do you think about ketamine treatment
as well? So I had psycho -assisted ketamine therapy
treatment as well, along with this group therapy.
that too was an amazing combination of like like
i said before i was this lone wolf i was working
by myself and and she's like we need to break
that this habit this habitual kind of aloneness
that you've got you know and then i jumped into
um uh you know those those two modalities that
she said you know and and and that changed my
life from that that point on and jumping into
you know this group therapy and being vulnerable
right really open to um the process and and listening
to the group and and knowing you can't them because
they know you're you know and and then utilizing
uh ketamine which was uh an amazing um dissociative
that really opened me up to get me outside of
my body right and and feel um feel again Um,
and then with that through experience, I was,
um, prior to, to kind of making this transformation,
I was also working with a lot with vets, um,
in, um, my, my, I guess, side time, if you will,
or extra time. Um, and I would, um, set up, um,
surf therapy. um, with, uh, a lot of the veterans.
And that was my way of giving back. Like I said,
I, I, you know, grew up within that world and,
and, um, was always like, what else can I do?
You know, uh, even though I had not served myself,
I want to be of service. Right. Um, so I, um,
worked a lot with, uh, the veterans in, um, and
getting them into the water. being mindful of
the this cathartic place right where you guys
vets and first responders are used used to running
or running to the fire if you will no pun intended
right i'm used to going to where there's action
you know and and that mindset of surfing gives
them that but it also puts them in a place of
being present and mindful of where they're at
right like separating them from all the and noise
that's been going on in their head or in at home
or wherever it is right and so now we're putting
them in a context of something bigger and powerful
than them which is the ocean the wave right like
you you can't mess around with the ocean like
you you better be there or she's gonna she's
gonna slap you and or drown you right so um so
you've got to be there So this laser focus kind
of centered of, of surfing and this adrenaline
and then this creating this flow state with them.
Right. And, and then the, the, the physical exertion
that goes on it, you know, they're having difficulty
sleeping. So this combination, you know, I had
been doing, and then I said, all right, I'm loving
alternative. healing modalities and medicines.
I love working with people. My gosh, what an
amazing experience group therapy was in ketamine
therapy. Why not jump into being and learning
more about plant medicines and psychedelics?
And so I became a psychedelic integration coach
and then intertwined. my my past like teaching
experiences and and uh and then of course what
i was doing working um with veterans who suffer
from ptsd and surfing so i kind of just mirrored
the two they organically came together um you
know when when i was going through my own process
right and and that's what i was looking for some
some purpose of like what else can i do to help
others work with people one -on -one right going
back to my my my story of like what what you
asked what did you want to do i knew i wanted
to work with people and so it it kind of came
full circle you know 25 years later but in a
way that um uh i wanted to really guide and help
people in a different way than what our you know
again our prescriptive way of healthcare was
going on. So yeah, that's kind of how I got into
it. What was the lowest point you were at? You
talked about the kind of disconnect, the lone
wolf, the inability to fulfill through the life's
checkboxes. Where was the lowest that you found
yourself prior to this kind of beginning of the
growth journey? Yeah. I guess it was just like,
I was just full of anger. just, just vile anger,
you know? And, um, and you said it yourself,
uh, you know, same way I would, I would find
every means not to be home, even though I had
a beautiful home, you know, and, and my kids
and, um, I would take extra trips, you know,
for work, or I would say I was going on a trip
and just disappear, you know? Um, and and i could
that was my job right um so so yeah i i i wasn't
living a a true life you know i was kind of living
a double life um you know using uh smoke a lot
of marijuana you know drinking just doing all
the things that um you know you wouldn't know
on the surface because i was good at like just
burying it really. And then, and then it just,
it just hit me one day. I remember my head like
popping, you know, of, and just spinning and
this ring wouldn't come out of my ear. I couldn't
think straight. I couldn't talk. I was, you know,
comatose if you will. Um, couldn't get out of
bed. Um, wouldn't eat. It wouldn't work out.
I didn't surf for a year, you know, that speaks
volumes. Yeah, it was bad. Oh yeah. It was bad.
It was. It was bad. When people talk about ketamine,
you usually get one of two responses. Either
they found it very helpful or there's some that
say it didn't work for me. And so far to date,
everyone that I personally have met that didn't
have some sort of good response to it, when you
ask them what did that look like, well, they
came in, they put an IV in, they started the
drip, and then they walked out. Versus, you know,
actually having someone there to help unpack,
you know, and it's the same, obviously, with
ayahuasca and some other things. If you're just
taking the drug and you're not really being guided
in whatever shape or form that looks like, whether
it's a shaman or a psychotherapist, I think that's
the missing piece of a lot of these therapies.
So with your ketamine experience, was it guided
while you were taking it? Yeah. So that's what
turned me on, too, was I worked with, obviously,
I had a psychotherapist. So it was a team, you
know. And then and then I had a coach as well.
And that really helped me understand what, you
know, I had used recreationally, you know, I
had done psilocybin and and LSD, you know, as
a kid and an adult here and there. But it was
all it wasn't with intention. Right. It was it
was record, which is fine. You know, like we
all we all got our vices and you want to detach
and have fun and all good. But but. This was
necessary for you to to have that that coach
and that that preparation, because these psychedelics
have handles. Right. And you got to understand
each handle that they have, meaning that it's
not just doing the drug or the psychedelic. Or
the plant medicine. It's, it's you coming in
with intention and understanding that it's, it's,
if it was a magic pill, right. You and I wouldn't
be talking right now. Like I'd be good. I'd be
sitting on a, on a Island count all the money
because I found this magic potion and, and I'm
good. And, and we would already have bottled
this thing up and, and, and it's, you know, little
pill form and we'd all be good but it but psychedelics
don't work that way you know these plant medicines
don't work that way and you need um to get ready
for this um aha moment this bigger than you moment
right this this wow what does it really mean
to like dissolve this ego because that's all
we're driven by is this ego right and so yeah
that that coaching aspect is so important and
prepping you for tool sets that you need to go
in through. And that's where I kind of, you know,
procured these tools of like, you know, working
on breath work and mindfulness, right? Journaling,
supplementation, diet, like all these things
matter. It's not just, hey, you know, let's go,
James. Let's just, let's do a heavy dose of psilocybin.
or ketamine or ayahuasca, whatever, let's just
jump in and we're going to feel better after
because these medicines don't work that way.
They're going to teach you, but you got to be
open and vulnerable to the process and give up
control. And that's the hard thing to do, right?
We're used to, you know, firefighters, anyone,
you know, CEOs, moms, dads, it doesn't matter,
right? We live in a world like I want to control
everything. We cannot control these medicines.
It's it's if you do, you're going to you're going
and you're going to have a rough time, you know.
So so that was a big. That was an aha moment
before I even did the medicine was this control,
because that's all I wanted to fucking do. I
want to control everything. I want to control
you. I want to control the next step I was going
to utilize within my family or work or the things
I love to do. I was just I want to control everything.
you know, and, and that was, I think, um, that's
what, what broke me was working with, you know,
the psychotherapist and this coach, like, you
know, if you're going to jump into this, you
gotta let, you gotta let that shit go. This is
not going to work. And we got to do work before
we even jump into, you know, talking about or
utilizing, you know, the medicine. You mentioned
some of our mutual friends. One of them is Catherine
Walker. from so was the your ketamine journey
what that led you to her no i i um great question
no she's she's wonderful um no we i i had hooked
up with her through um kind of reaching out and
looking to see how she was um working with first
responders and then we just gelled together for
our first conversation. And then she had me speak
on one of her webinars to first responders because
I've been working with them for a year, but I
wanted to get a little deeper, you know, with
first responders as a coach. Right. And, but
I, but I also knew that the system itself from
the ketamine therapy side or the ketamine clinics
was broken because, you know, like you said,
All you need is an MD license and a nurse practitioner
to start a ketamine clinic. I mean, that is bare
bones. And a lot were like that, right? And so
people were coming into them going, okay, yeah,
I'm having issues with anxiety, depression, substance
abuse, pain. The list goes on, right? But then
there was no preparation. And on the home front
here, I have a couple of psychotherapists, neurotherapists
I work with as a team. And then they would say,
hey, I got a person for you I want to defrag
because they had a bad experience with ketamine.
I'm like, oh, and I knew exactly what it was.
It was the initial preparation and no integration.
So long story short, Catherine and I had a good
just conversation and I presented to a bunch
of her first responders. And then I did some
integration work for her clinic as well in Tennessee
as a telecoach. And that's how we kind of worked
together and created a bond. And I was also going
to do some business development with Revitalist
as well as she was developing her business out.
as well so yeah great woman great great pioneer
for sure absolutely another mutual friend jesse
gold uh heroic hearts project so how did your
paths cross yeah um same thing i i you know i'd
gone through year year and a half of psychedelic
integration training you know and then um i went
to wonderland i don't know if you ever had had
gone to that or heard about it's a psychedelic
um um basic expo conference very very warm uh
small um it was uh three and a half years ago
i went and met jesse um there and um Kind of
said, Hey, I'm, I'm been working with first responders
and, and vets. And I would, and I've been following
his trajectory, I think in 2017, you know, he,
he was a banker and then got out of that and
went through a whole ayahuasca experience and
then created this nonprofit for. for vets to
um get help you know for they were suffering
from ptsd and and and all the behavioral and
emotional uh traumas that that they had suffered
and so i met him at wonderland we hit it off
and then um and then he set me up uh within the
coaching program and i've been there almost two
and a half years and that has just been a beautiful
experience um working with all the men and women,
um, from the armed forces and just, just being,
uh, indoctrinated into that, that family and
learning so much, uh, from, uh, the, the, my
clients that have come through that it is like,
every time I'm done with a session, I just like
that adrenaline. And that dopamine and oxytocin
and serotonin, like everything is like just rising
when I'm done working with all the heroic heart
vets and clients that I have. It is truly one
of the best experiences I've had. And just the
growth I've gotten myself as well. Like you said,
this symbiotic relationship that I've got with.
my clients in there is great. And I have, you
know, dozens of friends from that experience
that, that, you know, I've helped put through,
you know, you know, we, we, we, we see him, we
do about six, six sessions together. you know,
and, and, um, and then just, just nurtured this,
these great friendships too, um, and seeing them
evolve, it's just amazing. Um, so, so yeah, uh,
Jesse is, is, uh, an amazing human being too,
just, just full of, uh, empathy and compassion
and, uh, and just a smart guy on creating, uh,
uh, an organization that's also, you know, very
upfront in the, um, in the, the being an advocate
from how an advocate for changing how we're working
with our mental health and wellness, you know,
at the government level, right. With lobbyists
and fundraising and studies. Right. So it's a,
it's a really dynamic group at the real cards
project. It's interesting. you know, seeing where
we are now in 2025 and reflecting back, you know,
everyone listening, who's a first responder,
we see the ripple effects of drug prohibition,
everything from the overdoses, the prostitution
to the gang membership, to the homelessness,
et cetera, et cetera. But then in these last
nine years and these conversations I've had,
you know, like Zhao Gulau, who's spearheaded
decriminalization in Portugal. I've sat with
him in Lisbon and then we did a second one probably
about six months ago now. You know, and I'm listening
to veterans who early on in the show were tight
lipped about drugs in Afghanistan, for example.
And as you know, the last few years, actually,
there were opium farms and, you know, we were
told to burn it one day, not burn it the next.
And you just cover that the illicit drug trade
basically funded Al Qaeda, for example. You know,
and then you look at. These men and women, whether
it's my population that protects the community
or whether it's, you know, war fighters that
were out there, you know, fighting overseas for
this country and they come back and then they
have to go to Mexico or Costa Rica to get the
very treatment that, you know, for the things
that they did for America, you see, or it's starting
to fall apart now, which is, which is amazing
because there's no clearer truth that drug prohibition
is an epic failure. I mean, alcohol prohibition
was, you know, that's why we know Al Capone.
And they stopped it. But then Harry Anslinger
on the back end of that was like, well, I've
got to justify my job and I'm a screaming racist.
So let's do reefer madness and let's get this
drug prohibition thing going. And that was in
the 30s. So 80 plus years later, we realized,
no, this is not working. And it's amazing to
see the men and women, boots on the ground, advocating
this. And I've had hundreds of people on this
show. whose lives have been turned around in
part by some sort of, you know, whether it's
MDMA, ketamine, ayahuasca, ibogaine, you know,
insert thing here. But then you see the pushback
from bureaucracy. You see, you know, the OxyContin
get approved by the FDA and MDMA -led therapy
being disproved by the FDA. So it's clear as
day. And going back to bureaucracy, whether it's
education, whether it's the fire department,
I think now people are starting to realize that
in so many areas, I mean, take the funding. How
much does it cost to fight drug prohibition?
We're not talking about smugglers. We're not
talking about dealers. They go to prison in Portugal.
We're talking about the addict and encircling
them and getting them the help they need. And
also, as you said, all the psych meds that don't
work. We're talking arguably close to trillions,
I would imagine. So the money is there to invest
in the mental health therapies that actually
work and job creation and housing and all these
other areas that Portugal does. And I think all
these psychedelics and ketamine and MDMA that
we're seeing now, which is kind of funny, I was
honest on the very first fire application I ever
filled in. I did MDMA and I did... psilocybin
in japan mushrooms were legal when i was there
and they screwed up the application and threw
it at me now here we are and the same compounds
are healing first responders so yeah but i mean
just kind of rounding off that thought process
i think there is a revolution coming because
people are starting to have an awakening that
this ancient plant medicine has survived the
trials of time because it actually works oh yeah
i mean i mean it's crazy like you know uh david
nutt he was a british um psychiatrist and neuropsychopharmacologist
you know and he published in a study of these
these comparative harms right of drugs and you
know and i'll send it to you but uh it's basically
showing you know alcohol um as the lead you know
um harm for specific like mortality right and
dependence and loss of uh relationships right
and and it's literally it's like alcohol heroin
crack meth cocaine um ghb antidepressants then
at the bottom it's mushrooms lsd mdma yeah where
you know like you said we've we've this we've
morally um you know um legalized uh the most
destructive in alcohol and uh you know what are
the what are the the three most addictive you
know we got a smoke break right cigarettes you've
got happy hour in alcohol and then um and then
um what am i missing what was the third uh smoke
break happy hour i mean you could add in the
shit fast food is the third one oh yeah yeah
thank you sorry yeah you know and so thank you
uh the sugars right and and it's like you know
he lost his job as the uk's uh advisory council
on the of the misuse of on the misuse of drugs
because it didn't align with where all that money
was being tempered you know and and then asserting
that lsd is less harmful than alcohol which is
crazy you know and and these psychedelics and
it's been proven in a you know study since like
real intricate studies since like 2018 and 15
that um and peer -reviewed studies that they
um they being these um psychedelics are don't
have the, um, addictive properties to it. Like
anything could be addictive. I could be addicted
to, to water, right? Like I I'm, I could drink
too much of that, but it's not as Richard suggested
that, um, there, there, there's more, there's
a lower potential of abuse than, uh, than it's,
than it's, than what, you know, the Nixon cabinet
had, had purported about these, um, uh drugs
right so yeah it's it's it's all in the messaging
and and who's messaging it right yeah 100 and
then the tax too i mean i'm just thinking about
it in england cigarettes are taxed you know immensely
but how much is that also creating as far as
resistance to completely eliminating cigarettes
and again not making them illegal that clearly
doesn't fix the problem but truly addressing
addiction to it if the government is getting
a large tax kickback from that product so i would
argue it's probably the same with alcohol you
know if alcohol is taxed at a certain point what
are the you know what are some of the resistance
to actually getting people off it because i mean
you know i think that yeah putting it out there
and removing the demand for it is far more powerful
and it's the same with with the illicit drug
trade you know i was talking to someone the other
day You know, imagine if and we are the largest
consumer of illicit drugs on the planet. Imagine
if Americans didn't need drugs or like I said,
we decriminalize addiction. So now if you were
an addict, you were getting help. And, you know,
if you were on an opiate, for example, you were
getting methadone or some of these other things
that's helping you wean it off. But in the meantime,
you're getting back on your feet. You're becoming
a functioning member of society. Again, you're
paying taxes. Now, what does that does to the
cartels? Yes, they go into other areas, too.
But the drugs are still a huge part. Same with
the Chinese with fentanyl. So, you know, you
cut the head off the snake by healing people.
It doesn't matter if it's alcohol or whatever
the thing is. If people don't feel it as a void
that needs to be filled anymore, they're not
going to be compelled to take the drug. 100 percent.
And just the scheduling, you know, of how they're,
you know. classified you know uh where you've
got you know opioids that you know as a as a
scheduled um was it four and so there is and
in those it's like you know tylenol and percocet
and morphine and and then of course the derivative
you know and fentanyl which is what 50 to 100
times more Potent than morphine, you know? So,
yeah, it's just this miscalculation of, of, you
know, where these psychotrophics land and where
they're at to, to help, you know, our general
population. And of course, then, like you said,
big pharma, big business pushes all in on the,
on the stimulants and benzos and, you know, the.
the opioids you know it doesn't end right um
so yeah it's it's hopefully in this new administration
we get um kind of uh a reorganization there um
you know obviously we had some really amazing
studies unfortunately they were kind of pulled
apart with maps you know with the phase three
clinical trials that they did with mdma and and
you know getting i don't know 60 or 70 percent
of those who received mdma but it was psycho
it was assisted therapy as well right no longer
met the the need for ptsd or or met the criteria
after like two or three months so and again i
granted i know they pulled apart um you know
the how the the studies were conducted but they
but they couldn't you know take away what was
clinically found offer off a massive scale of,
of patients and veterans going through that,
um, that phase three trial. So, yeah, we, we
definitely got to look at how we're, um, looking
at our, our, um, our drug category categorization,
you know, and, and how they're, you know, what
they're really doing and giving people access
to. help with depression anxiety ptsd substance
abuse you know exactly so i'm with you all right
well shifting to an exciting new technology talk
to me about firefly vr how did you even come
across that company and then start unpacking
what you're doing with that yeah um great question
um same thing it was it was uh You know, working
in the in this psychedelic field and being in
a great health and wellness coach, you know,
it's a tough it's a tough climb. Right. You know,
getting clients and making a living. And so I
didn't want to necessarily stop doing it, but
I needed I needed more. uh, support in, in what
I was doing financially. Right. But I wanted
to be true to myself and, and where I was going
next in my next career opportunity. So, uh, a
few psychotherapists said, Hey, you got to check
out, um, uh, what Dr. Romig's doing here in Southern
California at, uh, in Irvine or yeah, in Irvine.
And, um, he had. He works a lot with veterans
and first responders, and he's got his own clinic
as well, an integrative health and wellness clinic
using stellate ganglite treatments and ketamine
and hyperbaric chambers and red light, the whole
gamut. But he was using... Firefly VR's technology
this virtual reality technology to help prep
his patients in with ketamine therapy and I was
like oh wow let's go let's go take a look at
this because this is I and I came from the tech
world I was my last kind of hurrah was with an
AI company and so I understood you know These
technical advances. So I had both minds going,
right? I put on my coaching cap, right? And my
tech cap. I'm like, all right, how are these
two working? I'm really interested. And I went
in and I said, hey, Dr. Roman, could I take a
look at it? He's like, absolutely. So he sat
me inside of it. And I was like, holy shit. Firefly
VR has something that I. didn't think you could
mirror as, uh, experiential and as grand and
as, um, concise, um, as I, what I do as a coach
too, like in, in, you know, putting my, my clients
in, in the right place for the next step and
you utilizing ketamine. And so I came out of,
and I said, all right, you gotta, you gotta set
me up with, uh, the CEO of the company. So he's
like, no problem. So he shot me an email, uh,
to the CEO and show man. And I, I hit him up
and say, yeah, we got to talk. And, and at any
rate, we met at a second year of, um, of the
Miami conference of Wonderland. The first year
I met, I met Jesse's second year. I met shell.
I'm telling you, Wonderland, it was one of the
greatest gatherings of minds from different fields,
you know, from psychotherapy, neurotherapy, technology,
you know, psychedelics, you know, individual
shaman groups and healers, right? It was an amazing
event. So I met Shel at the Wonderland. And from
there, we struck a relationship and I just understood
what they were doing. with this technology. And
the Beachhead product was initially for ketamine
therapy, right? They launched it for, they saw
a niche and saying, all right, we know there's
a void in that market where patients are not
getting all the care they need to prep for a
ketamine treatment, right? And so That that just
blew my mind and seeing that and and then part
of that team, too, is Robin Carhart Harris, you
know, which is, you know, a staple in the psychedelic
world. He was the first to brain map psychedelics,
seeing how it's it's, you know, transposing within
your brain and creating these different avenues
of of of, you know. of neuron of seeing everything
kind of light up in the brain. Right. And, and
reignite if you will, dead areas that were, had
not been talking to one another. Right. And,
and so he was so I said, Oh shoot. Then they
really understand what they're doing. You know,
if they've got Robin Carr Harris, a part of the
team and helping kind of develop the, the, the,
the platform. And so, From that point on, I kept
pushing and I said, hey, I'd love to come and
work with you because I think there's other places
that we can take this. And that was into the
first responder and veteran world. And they were
like, yes, this is good. We know this is adaptable
into being utilized in multi. verticals within
the behavioral health and wellness space. Right.
It was they knew that, but it was it was a matter
of starting somewhere. Right. And they started
in the ketamine space. So we so we are working
with a multitude of ketamine clinics around the
country, assisting them in their preparation
for their patients to get into that ketamine
IV treatment. So the sanctuary, as we call it,
is the actual platform. It's a highly modular
technology or software component that is based
around everything that we've kind of been talking
about, cognitive, dialectical. All these psychological
underpinnings that we get from psychotherapy
are built in within the platform. All right.
And then along with that is breath work and mindfulness
all put within the context of it so that the
clients and patients are now using VR as a way
to relax and become transported in these non
-distracting, calming places. And, and then they're
outside of, you know, the noise that we've talked
about earlier and inside this place where the,
the, this immersive narrative is, is creating
a place to let go. Right. And with that letting
go is, is built in, like I said, these psychological
underpinnings of, you know, dialectical behavior.
and cognitive behavioral modules. But when they're
visually in there, it's stimulating the mind
to use their kinesthetic learning state, right?
So you're doing both. You're actually doing stuff.
And then it's also creating this imprint on your
subconscious mind to immerse yourself in. the
activities and these activities could be uh for
instance one of them is called letting go and
that's letting go of emotions that have been
kind of anchoring you down right anger fear shame
all those things and and so in that mode or in
that um module you're being taught to kind of
let yourself go self -regulate get get your central
nervous system down with your with breath work
then actually physically like throwing away emotion
into the fire right so you're doing something
so it's a it's a really dynamic um um technology
that allows you to be you know you're not you're
not static. You're dynamic in there. You're working,
you're doing, you know, like, like we talked
about. And then there's also, so it's, it's basically
broken up in like these two components. It's,
it's a, it's the fireplace where the, where you're
doing these kinesthetic activities. And then,
and then the study it's more educational where
you're learning the why behind things, you know,
why am I doing this breath work? What is intentionality
mean? What, what is the, what are the biological
components of, of breath work and how does ketamine
potentially work through your body? But we work,
like I said earlier, we work across a multitude
of different health and wellness cares, you know,
and that could be from a whole health. That could
be from end of life in cancer wards, right? It's
for ptsd anxiety substance abuse and addiction
uh sleep right so a multitude of places that
gets the peop the the patients to experience
something that they haven't experienced in a
while and like how does change occur when we're
doing something truly experiential right that's
that's the way things change and and the beauty
about this and and why i jumped in this is is
it really does mimic psychedelics um in that
it's it's re you know when neurons fire together
change happens and that's what's happening we're
creating these these change states where we're
creating this neuroplasticity and now the mind
and now the body has the capacity to create new
habits and rituals and because it's truly experiential
being inside there so what does it look like
as far as actually using it is it something that
has to be done in a facility or is it something
that someone can purchase a vr headset and download
the software yeah no great um so we you know
there's a headset right there i don't know if
you can see it but but um that's the headset
and um we bundle the headset with the software
in one so you know it's just kind of a one -stop
shop for you and we've got a multitude of clients
that are you utilizing it you know we've got
obviously uh the va we're in like 10 different
vas across the country they're using it like
i said in their sleep sleep side their um their
whole life or whole health um we've got first
responders using it at the agency level We've
got first responders, psychotherapeutic groups
using it. So, yeah, there's always someone operationally
overseeing it for their specific client or patient.
And then we work with the end user or I should
say the client one on one in customizing the
experience for. their clients so we we have our
science team and we work collaboratively on how
do you want this module to to be aligned right
and there's basically two ways we do it it's
it's one is called open play where we've got
a multitude of activities you know and that ranges
like i said earlier from a letting go to planning
positivity to breath work and mindfulness body
work, right? And then they could say, all right,
patient X, go ahead and try these two modules
and they're five minutes each or go pick, right?
Or we have a more static way of doing it, which
is on rails. And then you say, hey, you know,
James, you're working for your fire department
and you'd say, hey, all right, look, we really
want to work on resilience training. Here I want
these five activities to be done in succession.
And then here's module two and module three.
So we set them up based on how you want it to
work as far as your workflow or experience that,
let's say, your firefighting crew. you would
like them to have or their peer support group
is leading or after a critical incident, you
know, you may have a specific way you want it
to run for that individual department or agency
that you're working at. A lot of the audience
are in professions where we're chronically sleep
deprived. So let's take a dive into that. Talk
to me about the VR system and sleep. Yeah, I
mean, it's it's it's powerful in a way that,
you know, like you said, we so I did I did an
open house with maybe 40 firefighters and and
it was their first experience in it. Right. And
so I had a couple of modules that I thought,
all right, these will be good for for this. this
group this crew here and so we had a battalion
chief and an engineer and um the battalion came
in sat in in on it and he was i think he was
doing body scan yeah i'm pretty sure it was body
scan and the intro to body scan was just doing
some basic coherent breath work And so it was
dropping him in. So, so right. Everything we
do is like, like, how do we, how do we slow everything
down? So, and when you're in there, everything
slows down because you, you, you, you just detach
from the, the station, the bullshit at home,
you know, the bullshit of the station on and
on and on. Right. So he, he drops in, he's going
through the session. This session is probably.
12 minutes within the sixth minute he's asleep
and like knocked out of sleep and that wasn't
the intent the intent was just you know to get
him to just kind of experience it and we stuck
an engineer in same thing fell asleep and what
was crazy was there you guys are so adrenally
taxed that they hadn't ever had a capacity to
fall asleep you know whether it was on duty or
at home Because, you know, you're always going
right. You're always thinking, you know, that's
that's just the mindset of a first responder.
And and so in there that it was why it works
so well is because you've got an internal coach
working with you, you know, and I know that you
guys, you know, have different organizations
and. activities and and wellness opportunities
that and groups that come to you but what happens
is a lot of times you won't practice it because
they're not in front of you right and this then
is that it's the it's the coach teaching you
all the things that they probably already had
before you know learning about breath work learning
about mindfulness you know but but not having
a root a routine kind of orderly system that
is experiential, that is knocking them, truly
knocking that adrenal system down, like putting
at, you know, getting them regulated, coming
out of that dysregulated state and, and slowing
down everything they do, that default mode network
that's just been spinning. So, so yeah, but you
know, So that's kind of how it works on its own
in educating, you know, each individual about
that anxiousness that they've got, you know,
or that depressive state that they have. It gives
them a sense of gratitude for where they're at,
you know. And that's how it works. But then we
would work on a set of modules that helps regulate
what you see as the best way for them to find
a homeostasis or a first getting into a place
of where they will be comfortable in getting
to sleep. What about addiction? On the site,
there's mentions of addiction several times.
So talk to me about the application with that
particular disorder. Yeah, you know, it's the
same thing. It's these purposeful intentions
that they're not used to, you know, it's to quell
those cravings, right? And most of those cravings
are occurring because they haven't. been in a
place where they can separate the two and recognize
that all the things that they've gone, they're
going through with the therapist are valuable
tool sets, right? So this isn't to replace anything.
It's an adjunct to what they're getting, right?
So if, and it's a powerful adjunct because it's
reinforcing what they're getting through in therapy.
and and what they've what they what the tool
sets that they've gotten from you know the therapists
and the and the group um so it's it's it's reprogramming
right they're they're now what it's doing it's
creating new habits and rituals that they didn't
have before their other habits and rituals were
were you know i'm gonna pick up you know i i
have that craving so i'm gonna go grab that um
you know that glass of gym beam or whatever it
is right but here it's it's teaching them oh
my gosh i have a whole set of tool sets i can
separate myself from or i do have the capacity
to separate myself from um those uh addictive
uh qualities it sounds like you know what i'm
getting correct me if i'm wrong that like you
said if if you know a a breathwork coach or a
meditation coach comes in and they give us a
two -day workshop you know that's fantastic but
depending on the individual they might be super
diligent with their practice or they may kind
of taper off or not do it at all but with this
vr system you're able to get those repetitions
so no different than us practicing throwing a
ladder or pulling hose or you know doing a mega
code you're now able to get in that immersive
state and the white noise of everyday life once
you go into this virtual world because it's closed
off you're more likely to enjoy each of those
and therefore keep doing it yeah it's it's you
know this virtual experience is permeating essentially
into your limbic system right it's slowing it's
helping it's processing emotions and feeling
it's it's getting in that prefrontal cortex right
and that the prefrontal is where decisions are
made And then what you've now are doing is seeing
like, holy shit, I do have the capacity to change.
This was truly experiential. This left a mark
on me. I'm searing away all that other baggage
and there is another self and I am diluting that
old ego, right? And so if we have the capacity
to relax. and foster um mindfulness right and
breath work and res and then we're receptive
to these emotional changes are these kind of
a new emotional um components i didn't have um
okay i i'm more connecting to my deeper self
you know and and then i know full well that you
know i've been going to you know therapy for
10 years and i just haven't picked up these tool
sets like even these couple psychotherapists
that we're working with that work with first
responders they they love utilizing it um as
a as a mechanism where the the first responder
vet has sat and they've been in therapy for three
months and they're talking about football the
whole time well they're not there for football
they just don't want to open up now what they're
this the conduit to oh okay this is a safe place
uh i feel good in here oh my gosh oh i did have
breath work before oh this isn't bullshit this
does work you know you know because they're they're
getting all this visual stimulation stimulus
stimulation they're getting this kinesthetic
You know, they're actually doing stuff in there,
you know, and it's in like nice jaunts of time.
You know, you don't have to be, you can be there
in four, five, 10, 15, 30 minutes. You don't
have to be there. You can be there in an hour.
It's not necessary, but these windows of time
are enough and guided enough to get them to a
place that is of purposeful. and intentionality
and enhancing change you know so um so yeah yeah
that's that's the kind of the magic behind it
but it's it's in ingrained with you know these
um all these different modalities inside of it
that's kind of that ah that ah kind of aha moment
that you have and and that's what was just you
know kind of blew my mind was wow you're getting
this and it is you know these parts of your brain
are talking to each other. They haven't spoken
to each other in a long time. This neuroplasticity
is, is being stimulated and, and growth is happening
just like psychedelics are. So it's, it's a great
mirror of, of the two. And that's what, what,
why I fell in love and jumped into it was like,
okay, I got to get into this emerging space because
I can only see how it's helpful. to our health
and wellness space and all the bottlenecks we
have. And there isn't enough therapists out there,
right? There's not enough help. And so what else
can we do specifically for first responders?
Absolutely. I think it's fantastic. I really
do. It just makes a lot of sense to me. And having
done meditation, the headspace, I use New Calm
a lot. And that really pulls you into an incredible
down regulation or up regulation if you choose
those ones too. But having that visual space
as well, it kind of reminds me of when I used
to go to chiropractic, we had to do all these
exercises before they adjusted us. And again,
you're prepping the body for the adjustment itself.
Now, this time, especially with ketamine, you're
prepping the mind for the journey with the counselor
or, like you said, reinforcing work that you've
already had. So it really does make a huge amount
of sense. One more area before I go to some closing
questions that I think is so understated, and
it's because we're just so far behind in our
profession, but whether you look at... you know,
the fitness conversation or the mental health
conversation, it's always about, you know, oh,
let's try and get less of them to die. Let's
try and get less of them to become addicted or
take their own lives versus what it should be,
you know, the ocean lifeguards and the special
forces operators. It should be okay. Well, how
can we get them to perform at the highest level
and forge mental and physical resilience so they
don't break? So talk to me about the performance
side of this software. Yeah, I mean, like anything,
it's a tool set that is now going to be a part
of your everyday rituals, right? And it's not
haphazardly done, but done in a consistent way
that you're immersing yourself into the platform
and its simulations. And it's enhancing you or
refining you to understand, hey, this is a safe
and controlled environment. It's, again, like
we talked about before, it's an adjunct to what
you're getting with that coach or strength exercise
or psychologist or sports psychologist, whomever
it may be, right? But it's not going to... It's
not going to work unless you're open to what
it's giving to you, right? But it's an engaging,
you know, multiple senses that you're not used
to getting, you know, whether it's the visual,
whether it's a tactile, which is the kinesthetic.
But the magic behind it is it's leaving a lasting
impression on your subconscious mind. That that's
the key to it. Like in any kind of training we
do, right. Whether it's, you know, enhanced training
preparedness that you're doing as a, as a firefighter,
you know, or trying to reduce stress and trying
to reduce, reduce stress, you know, it's you
being open to the, what is being taught to you
inside that, that module and then taking it outside
of that virtual world. Right. which is a great
place it's freeing and then recognizing within
self or yourself that i can duplicate that same
activity exercise out in the conscious world
right um and that's that's what this does it
mimics your subconscious it it just it it's like
it's laying these these undertones that we're
not used to um having because we're always you
know, as we spoke earlier, checking the boxes
or, you know, doing, um, what we think we should
doing rather than embracing ourselves in the
process and, and becoming less judgmental about,
you know, um, what we're facing, you know, so
it, it, it's just an opener to, to reset and
recalibrate, uh, everything that we've been.
initially doing and opening up to a deeper uh
sense of of performance or levels or healing
i can see as well i mean you can't get into a
flow state without a calm mind you can't absorb
learning without a calm mind you know you're
going to be less likely to be motivated to work
out with a busy mind so you know there's there's
definitely a direct correlation between you know
improving mental health and calming the mind
and the physical side and the skill set right
yeah you know a hundred percent it's um yeah
that flow state doesn't come without uh work
right and intentionality um but once you're in
it um and then you've reprogrammed your your
mind and held space for yourself uh that's a
that's a whole different level and you know it's
the same thing like you know all these you know
stress levels these high cortisol levels that
we we have are you know associated with this
chronic stress and then you know then it's it's
weight then it's you know associated with these
various you know weight gains or blood pressure
diabetes and weakened immune systems but if we're
if we're maintaining and using preventative measures
right you know and that's you know limiting the
the screen time we're on we're getting um taking
care of our bodies from you know maybe doing
self massages uh um getting uh vitamin d uh eating
a balanced diet supplementation right so yeah
it's everything you're putting into it and then
you know, that flow state will come more easily
when you've got a set of processes rather than
you trying to crowbar, excuse me, into everything
you're doing on a daily basis. Absolutely. Well,
I want to go to some closing questions if you've
got time. All right. The first one I love to
ask, is there a book or other books that you
love to recommend? It can be related to our discussion
today or completely unrelated. Um, yeah, I would
say, uh, stealing fire, um, is a great book.
It's basically how, um, uh, basically the Silicon
Valley came in and worked with Navy SEALs, uh,
scientists and, you know, revolutionized how
they're all working together. or how they're
creating flow states, like, so apropos to what
we're talking about, on, you know, what these,
how they harness these rare working places within
the body, but also, you know, what's been kind
of misunderstood. in history about, you know,
some of the psychedelics, some of the alternative
medicines. It's a great, great kind of biohacking
book for your brain. But from really high level
performers that, you know, your audience can
really relate to. And the author was, he wrote,
um, the Batman series, dark night. So he's got
a really good writing flair. Uh, Steven, um,
uh, Cutler is it that's what's coming to me,
Steven Cutler. Um, and just is, is just big on,
um, um, everything we're just kind of talking
about. So, yeah, uh, it's, it's a, it's an amazing
book. I highly recommend stealing, uh, stealing
fire. Brilliant. What about films and documentaries?
Oh, films and documentary. What I'm trying to
think, gosh, I've been watching Mobland lately.
That's been really good. Just to get away from
everything. that's on um oh now they're streaming
on on um netflix but uh yeah i mob lamb is something
i just i just started getting into and just kind
of going over the english mafia and uh you know
taking me away from everyday um storylines here
and just you know having having having a way
to escape but that's that's the only thing that's
coming to me right right now i know i've seen
a lot more and nothing is coming to my mind and
i apologize no no that's mine all right what
about um guests is there a person that you'd
recommend to come on this podcast as a guest
to speak to the first responders military and
associated professions of the world yeah i i
do um um i i really think uh matt and i he might
be in your in your um as part of our group that
you know like i said we we first kind of met
through um through linkedin and and then i'm
not sure if he's any in your circle or not but
but matt domiak he's he's an amazing uh retired
um swat team officer chaplain spiritual director,
former strength coach and sports psychology consultant.
So I really, really highly recommend him. He's
been a mentor of mine as well and just really
highly connected and understands the body and
mind and soul and spirit. And, you know, and
as well was a. uh, a police officer in the, in
the SWAT division for, you know, 30 plus years.
So yeah, I highly recommend him. He's been on
the show. It was probably, yeah, about, I think
it was about four years ago. That's been a while,
but yeah, we had a conversation. Yeah. I love
Matt. He's, um, yeah, he, he's, like I said,
in the last two years, come become a good friend
and mentor. And, um, he actually did my, my wife's
celebration of life. Uh, spreading of the ashes
kind of ceremony. So he's just a solid dude.
Well, speaking of that, kind of circling around
before we make sure where to find you. You led
us through this growth journey that you had and
then you lose your wife. So talk to me about
the tools that you had gathered and how that
factored into this last year of grieving. Yeah.
Yeah, I would definitely say I took from those
experiences I went through, you know, like I
said, five years ago and working on myself. But
what was having those tools and going through
and peeling away all those layers that I had.
being more open and vulnerable and, um, and understanding,
um, myself and understanding that, you know,
um, you know, pain is part of life, right. Um,
but suffering is a choice, you know, and we,
we put ourselves through a lot of suffering day
in and day out. And Um, and I was good at driving
that, those, uh, those knives into myself, you
know, um, and that taught me a lot about when
my wife did pass that, you know, pain is that,
you know, death is a part of life paint that
as part of the, you know, the journey and the
process. And, um, And I don't need to suffer.
I will, I got to feel into those, those emotions
and, and, and not bury them, bring them out and
show them to my kids. And I'm vulnerable and
open. And they taught me a ton about the resilience
that they have, like this crazy gear that my
16 and 13 year old had, you know, and losing
their mother and something I couldn't fathom.
I still don't understand. I don't. I, you know,
I have my mom, I, that, that, that, that I, that
doesn't as painful as this, that still doesn't
resonate. I don't, I don't know what that feels
like. Right. Um, and, um, but seeing them and
the strength that they have, um, and the daily
reminders of, of today's a new day. Yes. Things
suck. Yes, it hurts, but we're going to get through
this together, you know, and just the capacity
that they have to take upon things that are bigger
than them, you know, showed me I can do this.
I can do this 110 % for them. I have to do this
for them and for myself too. I can't, I can't
go back to. You know, I felt there was a couple
of times where I felt myself going back to my
old ways, you know, and wallowing in the suffering
and, uh, and knew that I, I can't go there. That's,
that's not a, that's not a place for me. I can,
I can feel it. I can take in that, that, that
anger and, you know, and sadness, but I can't
keep it anchoring me down. um you know i've got
to keep moving forward and be in motion and movement
be in community right um staying spiritual you
know all that's important all these components
are important it's not just one you know we've
got to have a multitude of of these healing modalities
um you know otherwise um you know we're we're
gonna um If we're not leaning on to others, you're
not going to come out of those tough times. And
that's what I really learned was power community
is so, so important. Beautiful. Well, I mean,
thank you for sharing that too. It reminds me
of Johan Hari when he's talking about addiction.
He said the opposite of addiction is not sobriety.
It's connection. I think it's true whether you're
a grieving spouse or whether you're someone still
trying to unpack the thing beneath the thing
that's causing you to drink, whatever that is.
That is the answer, is being around the right
people, of course, not just any people. And I
think this is what's so dangerous about this
divisive push that we're seeing, where we're
separating people and cleaving communities, whether
it was during COVID or politically or whatever
it is, is that... Humans need humans. That's
why we lived in villages and tribes for our entire
existence until recently. And now we have examples
where someone could be in the middle of New York
City surrounded by millions of people and feel
bone crushingly lonely because we need that community.
So, I mean, you know, your testimony is just
underlying that. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. No. Yeah.
It's, you know, we weren't born alone, right?
And so why push that sense of belonging and culture
and unity when, you know, a lot of us, and we
see the divisiveness now, like, you know, on
our phones. I mean, that's this thing is. it
divides, you know, and, and from the doom scrolling
to what I, what I don't have and, you know, loss
of connection and one -on -one interaction, right.
And socialization, it's, it's crazy. And that,
and that, that's, that scares me too. That's
what keeps me up with my own kids, you know,
is, Hey, you know, this, there's a time and place
for it and they know that, but, But on a grand
scheme, it's kind of scary where we're at. Absolutely.
I think the answer is community. It really is.
Stop looking. And I've said this on here so many
times. Stop looking at government buildings and
fire chiefs and all these people that put themselves
on a pedestal. We didn't put them there. To supposedly
solve your problems. Literally look in the mirror
and then look around your own home. That's where
you can really make a difference. Yeah. A hundred
percent, James. Uh, yeah, you, you're definitely
a man of wisdom and, and experienced a lot. So,
um, I really appreciate this experience with
you and, um, and kind of taking me through this
journey and, and learning more about myself too,
as I, as I was digging deep into some of those,
um, those things in my life. So, um, you know,
I really appreciate what, what you're doing here.
and connecting uh back with ourselves that's
super important so it was cathartic and thank
you yeah well thank you for people listening
though where can they find firefly vr and then
if they want to reach out to you personally where
the best place yeah no great um yeah so um love
to connect with uh more of you guys out there
in the first responder veteran space um fireflyvr
.com or fireflyimmersive .com and um we we've
kind of rebranded from firefly vr to firefly
immersive but either way you will find us both
will work um and and love to connect and then
as far as myself um i have my own uh website
uh doors to delic minds .com that's my um uh
psychedelic integration coaching uh site and
connect with me there i'd love to help give education
whatever it is uh i'm here open uh anytime i
work with a multitude of clients from first runners
to veterans to ceos moms dads you know everyone
so um so yeah that's the basic you know, two,
two places to connect with, uh, me and, and,
um, Firefly and, and again, super appreciative
of what you're doing here and, and, and talking
more and, uh, gonna definitely send more people,
uh, to, to your, um, site and me and I, there's
a couple other people I'll recommend to offline
to you as well.