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go to episode 323 of the behind the shield podcast

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with joel totoro and wes barnett welcome to the

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behind the shield podcast as always my name is

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james geae
ring and this week it is my absolute

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honor to welcome on the show integration wellness

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coach and part of the firefly vr team brian kleindienst

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Now, in this conversation, we discuss a host

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of topics from his journey into the world of

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teaching, sales, ketamine therapy, ayahuasca,

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the power of virtual reality for breathwork,

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integration, and meditation, sleep, surfing,

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and so much more. Now, before we get to this

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incredible conversation, as I say every week,

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please just take a moment. Go to whichever app

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you listen to this on. subscribe to the show,

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leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single

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five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,

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therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library of over 1 ,100 episodes

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now. So all I ask in return is that you help

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share these incredible men and women's stories

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so I can get them to every single person on planet

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Earth who needs to hear them. So with that being

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said, I introduce to you Brian Kleindienst. Enjoy.

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Well, Brian, I want to start by saying thank

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you so much for taking the time and coming on

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the Behind the Shield podcast today. Appreciate

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you having me. It's an honor. I'm looking forward

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to having our discussion here and just talking

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a little bit about everything from behavioral

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health and wellness, virtual opportunities to

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different integrative medicines. talk about our

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beloved first responders. So I'm thrilled to

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be here. So thank you. Brilliant. So I would

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love to start at the very beginning of your journey.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a

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little bit about your family dynamic, what your

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parents did, how many siblings. Yeah, sure. I

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was born and raised in Southern California. I'm

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first generation actually born here in California.

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My father was born in Nazi Germany. They were

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Poles that were incarcerated and put in working

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camps. And my grandfather was just an amazing

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human. He knew four different languages, you

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know, actually. uh the german uh or the i should

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say the allies broke lines and he saved uh this

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town that he was incarcerated called schiffelbach

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from being essentially burned and he knew english

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and told that to the allies like hey even though

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we've gone through some bad stuff um generally

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these were some good people yeah the nazis had

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had taken a a lot uh of our lifestyle and life

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away but you know have some compassion so it's

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a really compelling my grandfather it was just

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a amazing human and and and then you know the

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same kind of goes with what was embedded with

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me about um from my father it was just being

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you know compassionate and uh serving you know

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and Working towards others, you know, be a purpose

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and service. And so my father was a Vietnam vet

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and a retired firefighter. So I kind of grew

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up in that ethos, right, of serving others, you

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know, and seeing and being in it. And then my

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mother, she was born in Mexico, in Yucatan. And

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so I had this. yin and yang of these cultural

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differences. But just a beautiful family that

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I grew up in. I traveled to Mexico over the summers

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and hang out with my relatives in Merida before

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Cozumel and Cancun were what they were. I got

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to see it develop. So I've got a really interesting

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background, to say the least, from my family

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lineage and my my friends all call me um i'm

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a beanpole so uh it took me a second yeah so

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a lot of good jokes and and just uh a great great

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family and and you know and my parents grew up

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in l .a and then kind of migrated they met together

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they met at 16 and 14 they've been together ever

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since so really you know tight family dynamic

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um you know, from both sides, from my, the client

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Dean side and the when field side. Um, so yeah,

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really strong family, um, um, you know, upbringing

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and, and, and community, right. Big family traditions,

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you know, Christmas is always huge for us. I

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have two, we have two massive dinners, Polish

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based and Spanish based. And, um, and yeah, and

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then, you know, my parents met and then moved

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down to Further into Southern California, I live

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in South Orange County now and love it. I'm a

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big avid surfer, you know, love being outdoors

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and mountain biking. And I've got two beautiful

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kids that didn't have a choice either. They are

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indoctrinated into surfing and camping and doing

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everything we can outdoors. you know, we're always

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in motion. I think that's important, you know,

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and then, um, uh, and then unfortunately my,

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uh, my wife passed away last year. Um, and that

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was tragically and out of the blue. Um, she,

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um, was at my son's dive, uh, event in, uh, uh,

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West Virginia. He was at nationals. He's a, he's

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a diver, uh, for the Natadors here in Southern

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California. Um, and unbeknownst to her or us

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or anyone um she had uh this big tumor um uh

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you know in her lower intestine colon area and

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it had been there for 10 years and the cancer

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what wasn't what had killed her it was the uh

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the sepsis that set in so fast right and then

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they couldn't figure out how her body was shutting

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down you know with dialysis and, and, you know,

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they had five or six ER, um, uh, or, you know,

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doctors working on her at its, or I should say

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staff. Um, and it, it was just out of the blue

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and, and, and life hits you really quick in the

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face, you know, um, as you know, as a, as a firefighter

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and first responder, you know, things can change

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at a moment. So Yeah, it's definitely been a

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challenging year. But it goes back to kind of

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my family, you know, and those roots and that

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love and community and support. And now we have

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a bigger family. You know, we've always had a

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big family, but now, you know, really leaning

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on to on others that want to help, you know,

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from from the friends group and the sports groups

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and the internal family that. the main family.

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And so, um, yeah, it's, it's definitely, um,

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been, uh, you know, I I've, I've learned and

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I only learned through, you know, what happened

00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:09.460
to me five years ago, which I thought was the

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greatest kind of gift, but it was the most painful

00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:17.320
was I, I suffered from, uh, really bad depression

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and anxiety. Uh, and I was just, uh, really lost.

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And, and that, that at that time I thought was

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the hardest thing I could go through was just

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being in this, uh, this hell of, of being inside

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my head, you know, and couldn't get out of it.

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Um, and I did, I eventually did. I, I, you know,

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I, I immersed myself into, um, you know, alternative,

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uh, healing modalities and became a. integration

00:10:47.529 --> 00:10:50.850
coach and changed my lifestyle changed the way

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i was doing things but stepped into the the edge

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of like being vulnerable and working on myself

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and going through psychotherapy and all those

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things right um and if i hadn't gone through

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that personal hell there's no way i would have

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got through you know and i'm getting through

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i'm not got i haven't got through i'm getting

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going through it right but um I had these amazing

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tools that have helped facilitate, you know,

00:11:23.490 --> 00:11:29.450
through this, this pain and suffering. And then

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also like having the capacity to look at my kids

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and look at how durable and resilient they are,

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you know, and learning from that. So yeah, come

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full circle, you know. Everything happens for

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a reason, and that's a messed up reason, but

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I couldn't have got through what anyone goes

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through when you lose someone of that, your loved

00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:06.620
one of that close in nature. If I hadn't gone

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through my own personal hell, I don't think I

00:12:09.740 --> 00:12:13.159
could have gotten through it as the way I have.

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everything. And I work in the present moment.

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I try to be as present as possible because we

00:12:21.509 --> 00:12:25.049
don't know when our last breath or moment will

00:12:25.049 --> 00:12:27.190
be here. And there's no point ruminating about

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the past, what I should have, could have done

00:12:28.990 --> 00:12:32.350
or be in the future, you know, is like where

00:12:32.350 --> 00:12:35.950
I need to be or what I could be doing. Right.

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So, so yeah, man, kind of heavy to start here,

00:12:41.070 --> 00:12:46.240
but. But that's kind of it in a summation of

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my life. And there's more, obviously. But yeah,

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that's kind of where I've been. The sad thing

00:12:57.279 --> 00:12:59.299
is, you know, we say, oh, it's a downer, it's

00:12:59.299 --> 00:13:01.620
heavy, it's whatever. But this is life. And this

00:13:01.620 --> 00:13:04.480
is why I ask these early life questions. Because,

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I mean, so many of us have a backstory and normally,

00:13:07.460 --> 00:13:10.740
you know, it plays into modern day as well. So

00:13:10.740 --> 00:13:12.779
firstly, I'm so, so sorry to hear about your

00:13:12.779 --> 00:13:15.320
wife. I mean, that must be crushing. And I want

00:13:15.320 --> 00:13:18.120
to get to that and that healing journey. Yeah,

00:13:18.220 --> 00:13:22.009
sure. Going all the way back to Nazi Germany

00:13:22.009 --> 00:13:24.850
and Poland and then the same kind of generation

00:13:24.850 --> 00:13:30.129
in Mexico as well with this incredibly mature

00:13:30.129 --> 00:13:35.090
lens that's been through such highs and such

00:13:35.090 --> 00:13:39.879
lows now in 2025. Yeah. what are your reflections

00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:42.879
as far as the multi -generational trauma because

00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:45.600
i'm sure you know what what your grandparents

00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:47.700
brought from each of those and then your father

00:13:47.700 --> 00:13:50.200
in the fire service in vietnam you know when

00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:52.460
in our professions a lot of times we say oh well

00:13:52.460 --> 00:13:54.659
james you were on that horrible you know fire

00:13:54.659 --> 00:13:57.360
or you were in fallujah or you know whatever

00:13:57.360 --> 00:14:00.289
the thing is And I think where we miss a lot

00:14:00.289 --> 00:14:02.009
of these veterans and first responders is, well,

00:14:02.029 --> 00:14:03.610
what happened to you before you put the uniform

00:14:03.610 --> 00:14:06.029
on? And then I'm realizing now, well, also what

00:14:06.029 --> 00:14:07.470
happened to your dad and what happened to your

00:14:07.470 --> 00:14:10.950
granddad? So, you know, talk to me about any

00:14:10.950 --> 00:14:13.909
awakenings as far as the impact of generations

00:14:13.909 --> 00:14:17.529
upon you as you were going through your own struggles.

00:14:17.850 --> 00:14:23.370
Yeah. No, that's a great question. And I, you

00:14:23.370 --> 00:14:30.639
know, I guess I, A hundred percent. There's generational

00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:33.059
trauma. I'm going to say that right now. It took

00:14:33.059 --> 00:14:35.700
me a while to realize it until I hit my mid forties

00:14:35.700 --> 00:14:39.799
because I, I'd seen what was going on, you know,

00:14:39.799 --> 00:14:43.899
with my entire family, my aunts, both my aunt,

00:14:43.980 --> 00:14:46.759
my uncle, my two uncles suffered from anxiety

00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:52.990
and depression. Right. And they weren't in. the

00:14:52.990 --> 00:14:56.809
uh arms forces right uh both are psychologists

00:14:56.809 --> 00:15:01.470
and therapists it's it's crazy you know and then

00:15:01.470 --> 00:15:04.570
i i saw the the trials and tribulations that

00:15:04.570 --> 00:15:07.210
my my grandfather went through the just crazy

00:15:07.210 --> 00:15:11.690
ptsd you know and and it really he was good at

00:15:11.690 --> 00:15:14.450
kind of burying it and masking it because he

00:15:14.450 --> 00:15:16.950
had you know he's raising four kids from you

00:15:16.950 --> 00:15:21.639
know a migrant life right and and and raised

00:15:21.639 --> 00:15:24.879
four beautiful, uh, children, you know, that

00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:29.419
are all successful. And, um, and then when he

00:15:29.419 --> 00:15:34.379
got, I was probably in my, when I got married

00:15:34.379 --> 00:15:37.580
in my mid twenties or no, when I was 30, excuse

00:15:37.580 --> 00:15:44.779
me. Um, he really re kind of regressed and, and

00:15:44.779 --> 00:15:49.500
became really, um, He was not his outgoing person.

00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:52.279
It hit him really hard. It hit him his whole

00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:55.519
life. He never forgot it. It was a different

00:15:55.519 --> 00:15:58.759
kind of him where he wouldn't leave the house.

00:15:58.899 --> 00:16:03.100
He didn't want to talk to anyone. I was talking

00:16:03.100 --> 00:16:09.980
to my dad, trying to figure this out. I didn't

00:16:09.980 --> 00:16:12.480
understand mental health as much as I do now.

00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:19.649
That was 25 years ago. And then, and then it

00:16:19.649 --> 00:16:24.870
hit me, you know, in my mid forties. And I know

00:16:24.870 --> 00:16:33.250
biologically is we can't run from our story.

00:16:34.070 --> 00:16:35.970
Eventually you're going to have to face it. Right.

00:16:36.990 --> 00:16:39.289
And, and there's, and then there's only so much

00:16:39.289 --> 00:16:41.070
compartmentalizing you can do. And I was good

00:16:41.070 --> 00:16:43.429
at that. I was really good at compartmentalizing

00:16:43.429 --> 00:16:49.740
all the shit that I was. processing. As a young

00:16:49.740 --> 00:16:55.639
adult, I was always a high achiever. I was an

00:16:55.639 --> 00:16:59.740
adrenaline junkie. I mean, I did 20 some odd

00:16:59.740 --> 00:17:04.880
triathlons. I surfed big waves. I skateboarded.

00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:10.200
I rode BMX. I mountain biked. I did everything

00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:12.980
that you possibly could that just pushed yourself.

00:17:14.539 --> 00:17:17.880
And, and then work career, same, same thing.

00:17:17.980 --> 00:17:20.359
I was in a, I was in medical device sales and,

00:17:20.380 --> 00:17:23.119
you know, just wanting to achieve, achieve, achieve

00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:26.200
and check every check, check every box off there

00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:29.460
was, you know, house, kids, vacation, cars, blah,

00:17:29.539 --> 00:17:34.180
blah, blah. Right. And then I was like, none

00:17:34.180 --> 00:17:36.940
of this makes me happy. None of it, you know,

00:17:36.940 --> 00:17:42.420
and then realizing, gosh, what my. grandmother

00:17:42.420 --> 00:17:45.160
and grandfather went through and my father you

00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:51.400
know uh it's definitely passed through in through

00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:54.380
generation to generation that and i and i thought

00:17:54.380 --> 00:17:57.279
that was kind of a i don't know excuse i guess

00:17:57.279 --> 00:18:01.460
if you will you know and then i i was like wow

00:18:01.460 --> 00:18:04.759
it happened to my my aunt and then my two uncles

00:18:04.759 --> 00:18:08.240
and my father and and then myself all about the

00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:11.720
same age in their 40s Right. I'm 53. I'll be

00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:17.599
53. Jeez. Yeah. I'll be 53 next month. So, so

00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:22.460
yeah, it was, that was a big awakening is like,

00:18:22.539 --> 00:18:26.559
this is real. This is absolutely real, you know,

00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:30.400
and, and how, how, how am I going to work through

00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:35.480
this and, you know, being open to. processes

00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:38.480
that were foreign to me meaning i was i was used

00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:41.460
to being a lone wolf i just that's i was actually

00:18:41.460 --> 00:18:43.980
that called that work like you know that's brian

00:18:43.980 --> 00:18:45.920
he'll just work on his own he'll just do it himself

00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:49.759
you know and that was just kind of my makeup

00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:54.200
but i was missing community you know and and

00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:58.900
people and help um around me i i got it but i

00:18:58.900 --> 00:19:03.180
was more just like hyper focused on you know

00:19:03.789 --> 00:19:08.049
completing X, Y, and Z and getting it done my

00:19:08.049 --> 00:19:12.089
way. And it was pretty good, but it wasn't as,

00:19:12.269 --> 00:19:15.609
you know, open and nurturing as I should have

00:19:15.609 --> 00:19:18.650
been. And that was destroying me too. And then

00:19:18.650 --> 00:19:22.289
I was suffering from, you know, just always thinking

00:19:22.289 --> 00:19:25.009
about what I could be doing or should be doing,

00:19:25.069 --> 00:19:28.269
you know, and I was never happy in that place

00:19:28.269 --> 00:19:30.569
in time, like you and I would have a conversation,

00:19:30.769 --> 00:19:35.519
but I wasn't. listening i was oh i got to go

00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:39.240
on to the next email or task or you know get

00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:42.500
on a plane or work with someone or get on a surf

00:19:42.500 --> 00:19:45.279
trip or whatever it was you know i was totally

00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:50.819
dissociated you know so it's interesting how

00:19:50.819 --> 00:19:54.359
a lot of us i use the word us myself included

00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:57.559
um you know you don't realize that you're using

00:19:57.559 --> 00:20:00.059
busyness to distract you from things that you

00:20:00.059 --> 00:20:02.609
should be addressing And so my community especially

00:20:02.609 --> 00:20:05.410
will have what we affectionately refer to as

00:20:05.410 --> 00:20:08.450
the overtime horse that will take all the overtime

00:20:08.450 --> 00:20:10.690
in the world. And you take a step back and say,

00:20:10.730 --> 00:20:13.309
well, why are you not going home to your family?

00:20:13.809 --> 00:20:16.930
And, you know, in every case, I would argue,

00:20:17.029 --> 00:20:18.609
because if you're in a terrible relationship,

00:20:18.869 --> 00:20:21.470
they need to address that. And if you love your

00:20:21.470 --> 00:20:23.750
kids and your wife or your husband, then I would

00:20:23.750 --> 00:20:26.309
argue that you're. You're busy when you're at

00:20:26.309 --> 00:20:30.170
a fire station, and so you don't want that time

00:20:30.170 --> 00:20:32.309
where you just sit and contemplate and actually

00:20:32.309 --> 00:20:35.490
see the things that need to be seen. And to pull

00:20:35.490 --> 00:20:38.609
a beautiful proverb from your Mexican side of

00:20:38.609 --> 00:20:42.329
the family, it goes, they tried to bury us. They

00:20:42.329 --> 00:20:45.450
didn't know that we were seeds. And it's perfect.

00:20:45.750 --> 00:20:48.190
If they're in there, it is going to come out

00:20:48.190 --> 00:20:51.589
at some point. And we'll get into, obviously,

00:20:51.609 --> 00:20:53.009
psychedelics and some of these other things.

00:20:53.069 --> 00:20:54.670
A lot of times, though, people don't even realize

00:20:54.670 --> 00:20:58.009
it's there. So that generational trauma, it's

00:20:58.009 --> 00:21:00.930
not an excuse. I always use the phrase reasons,

00:21:00.950 --> 00:21:04.910
not excuses. It is going to have an impact on

00:21:04.910 --> 00:21:08.069
you. But once you identify it, once you see it,

00:21:08.089 --> 00:21:10.269
imagine a sniper in the dark and someone turns

00:21:10.269 --> 00:21:13.069
the lights on. Oh, there he is. I can get him

00:21:13.069 --> 00:21:19.730
now. Now you have the ability to act. understanding

00:21:19.730 --> 00:21:22.150
that all of us are going to have struggles and

00:21:22.150 --> 00:21:24.190
it doesn't mean that it's going to make you weaker.

00:21:24.789 --> 00:21:27.490
If unaddressed, it will make you weaker. If addressed,

00:21:27.750 --> 00:21:30.309
I believe that truly is resilience is post -traumatic

00:21:30.309 --> 00:21:33.049
growth. But I mean, in my family, I mean, there's

00:21:33.049 --> 00:21:34.849
all kinds of horrendous stuff in my parents,

00:21:35.269 --> 00:21:38.230
grandparents, et cetera. And, you know, I think

00:21:38.230 --> 00:21:40.289
everyone else has that too. I haven't met anyone

00:21:40.289 --> 00:21:43.029
yet who, if you go back two or three generations,

00:21:43.150 --> 00:21:46.599
it's just Disney life. So I think these are these

00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:49.099
are so, so important. And with our as we sit

00:21:49.099 --> 00:21:51.559
here now, we're almost the same age. Our grandparents

00:21:51.559 --> 00:21:55.240
went through a world war. How can you walk away

00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:57.900
from that unscathed? But we call them the greatest

00:21:57.900 --> 00:21:59.779
generation. We said they just rolled their sleeves

00:21:59.779 --> 00:22:02.519
up. They were fine. They went back to work. And

00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:04.960
that's bollocks. They did not. They were not

00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:07.299
fine because you cannot be fine after that kind

00:22:07.299 --> 00:22:11.700
of massive international trauma. So unpacking

00:22:11.700 --> 00:22:14.000
this and identifying, you know, these kind of

00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:17.539
through lines, I think then empowers us, you

00:22:17.539 --> 00:22:20.460
know, our generation to do the work so that we

00:22:20.460 --> 00:22:23.799
don't pass it on to our children. Oh, yeah, 100

00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:26.920
percent. And and that's what's like you said,

00:22:26.980 --> 00:22:29.839
just, you know, the this generation that went

00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:34.329
through a world war and, you know. just basically

00:22:34.329 --> 00:22:36.329
said, yeah, roll your sleeves off, ignore it.

00:22:36.390 --> 00:22:39.170
And that's, you know, then it's, it's kind of

00:22:39.170 --> 00:22:42.529
ruled itself generation after generation in that,

00:22:42.569 --> 00:22:45.210
in the first responder veteran world is like

00:22:45.210 --> 00:22:50.150
the stigma of like, no, I, I'm a warrior. I can't,

00:22:50.150 --> 00:22:53.289
I can't let anyone know what's really going on

00:22:53.289 --> 00:22:57.569
inside, you know, which is crazy because, uh,

00:22:58.359 --> 00:23:02.059
You know, it's only going to nurture itself into

00:23:02.059 --> 00:23:05.779
just this self -destruction, you know, and you're

00:23:05.779 --> 00:23:09.880
just going to cave in. And eventually what we've

00:23:09.880 --> 00:23:13.180
perpetuated is more this prescriptive kind of

00:23:13.180 --> 00:23:16.900
way of helping each other. Right. Rather than

00:23:16.900 --> 00:23:21.720
being proactive and getting to, like you said,

00:23:21.779 --> 00:23:24.079
the root, the root, that seed, like, where is

00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:28.039
this all coming from? you know so um so yeah

00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:32.420
like i you know i saw you know you know each

00:23:32.420 --> 00:23:35.599
one of my um relatives suffer from some sort

00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:38.000
you know whether it's substance abuse or you

00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:42.200
know whatever crutch that they had you know it

00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:47.299
was it was that mechanism to just um bury bury

00:23:47.299 --> 00:23:49.640
bury and then hopefully you know i'll come out

00:23:49.640 --> 00:23:53.720
the other side you know one day and i'll be fine

00:23:53.720 --> 00:23:59.799
but it That never happens. That's an impossibility.

00:24:00.920 --> 00:24:07.599
So yeah, it's definitely real and not something

00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:12.920
to ignore, but to, again, get to the root of

00:24:12.920 --> 00:24:18.420
where you're feeling that dysregulation and where

00:24:18.420 --> 00:24:24.769
it's truly coming from within yourself. Absolutely.

00:24:25.150 --> 00:24:27.049
Well, we're going to talk about what you're doing

00:24:27.049 --> 00:24:29.250
today and how that's going to benefit firefighters.

00:24:29.529 --> 00:24:31.890
But going back to your early life, what do you

00:24:31.890 --> 00:24:34.349
remember as far as being the child of a firefighter

00:24:34.349 --> 00:24:37.970
and the pros and cons of your dad's career at

00:24:37.970 --> 00:24:45.710
that point? Yeah, definitely, you know, you know,

00:24:45.750 --> 00:24:49.509
this in just kind of like and I carried it, too,

00:24:49.609 --> 00:24:53.059
as I was watching this kind of like. indestructible

00:24:53.059 --> 00:24:57.140
person you know that can do anything you know

00:24:57.140 --> 00:25:04.420
and and um and but but just just full of um you

00:25:04.420 --> 00:25:08.000
know bravado and strength you know and courage

00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:12.019
you know all those things um you know being gone

00:25:12.569 --> 00:25:16.609
you know uh missing him uh you know those days

00:25:16.609 --> 00:25:19.809
and times of hey check this out i did i caught

00:25:19.809 --> 00:25:22.190
this fish or you know i got this good wave you

00:25:22.190 --> 00:25:25.450
know what you know this game uh that i was uh

00:25:25.450 --> 00:25:29.609
at playing soccer or whatever you know um but

00:25:29.609 --> 00:25:34.789
i understood you know it was uh it was for you

00:25:34.789 --> 00:25:37.740
know a good cause. And I, I kind of understood

00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:40.339
that as young as I was, I was like very, you

00:25:40.339 --> 00:25:42.519
know, he was always on the pedestal for, for

00:25:42.519 --> 00:25:47.500
me, you know, there. Um, and, um, and, and, and

00:25:47.500 --> 00:25:50.279
he was very present, you know, when he was home.

00:25:50.359 --> 00:25:53.440
Right. But, but then there was, he had his own

00:25:53.440 --> 00:25:55.640
kind of things that he was working with that

00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:59.150
I could see from Vietnam to, you know, um, home

00:25:59.150 --> 00:26:02.069
life and and and work life right like that that

00:26:02.069 --> 00:26:04.509
distinction was totally different you know everything's

00:26:04.509 --> 00:26:09.289
slowing down at home and it's like you know like

00:26:09.289 --> 00:26:14.170
a like a a trapped uh uh you know mouse in a

00:26:14.170 --> 00:26:17.490
in a mouse trap you know just bouncing off um

00:26:17.490 --> 00:26:21.250
so so yeah a lot of different you know memories

00:26:21.250 --> 00:26:26.190
of that um but but you know again um all good

00:26:26.700 --> 00:26:30.779
for me and, um, you know, and, and always, you

00:26:30.779 --> 00:26:35.619
know, taught me about, you know, self -reliance,

00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:38.619
you know, hard work, you know, being gritty,

00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:44.960
um, you know, so yeah, it was, uh, it was, it

00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:47.920
was a good way to, to, to grow for sure. And,

00:26:47.980 --> 00:26:51.059
and learn some real valuable life lessons early

00:26:51.059 --> 00:26:54.940
as well. The, you know, parents not being able

00:26:54.940 --> 00:26:57.579
to be there. I mean, no, you know, person can

00:26:57.579 --> 00:26:59.559
be there at every single event, obviously, but

00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:01.700
that's something that I'm really trying to work

00:27:01.700 --> 00:27:04.380
towards because the work week has just got longer

00:27:04.380 --> 00:27:06.900
and longer and longer as we recently were so

00:27:06.900 --> 00:27:09.039
understaffed. And this is the thing that you

00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:10.980
hear from children over and over again, whether

00:27:10.980 --> 00:27:13.880
it's your generation or way through today, it's

00:27:13.880 --> 00:27:16.359
that you don't hear them say, I was worried that

00:27:16.359 --> 00:27:18.599
dad was going to be killed in the fire. You hear

00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:23.420
them say dad or mom are never home. And it is

00:27:23.420 --> 00:27:25.559
a noble cause, but that doesn't mean that it

00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:29.319
has to be run by a skeleton crew. If the banker

00:27:29.319 --> 00:27:31.799
works 42 hours, if the grocery clerk works 40

00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:34.500
hours, whatever it is, why are the people that

00:27:34.500 --> 00:27:37.079
we're calling on our worst day working 56, 80

00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:40.059
hours a week? So this is what I'm trying to get

00:27:40.059 --> 00:27:42.119
the fire service to understand collectively.

00:27:42.519 --> 00:27:45.259
And one of many voices is to be like, yeah, you

00:27:45.259 --> 00:27:47.240
should be a firefighter. You should be proud.

00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:49.779
You absolutely sacrifice your time when you're

00:27:49.779 --> 00:27:52.839
needed. There should also be the kind of staffing

00:27:52.839 --> 00:27:56.180
where you should be home as much as the people

00:27:56.180 --> 00:27:58.500
that work in the town, the people that make the

00:27:58.500 --> 00:28:00.460
decisions in the administration building. So

00:28:00.460 --> 00:28:02.680
I hope we're going to see that, that the next

00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:04.519
generation of children will have their parents

00:28:04.519 --> 00:28:11.039
home a lot more. 100%. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Yeah,

00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:15.440
it's a complicated dynamic. And like you said,

00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:20.339
the economics of it. unfortunately out or outweighing

00:28:20.339 --> 00:28:24.240
what real life is about you know and and the

00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:27.940
value of life you know i guess you you saw what

00:28:27.940 --> 00:28:32.779
was uh that fired the was in massachusetts you

00:28:32.779 --> 00:28:36.839
know in the um retirement home um oh god yeah

00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:39.880
i killed all those people yeah where there was

00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:44.160
30 off -duty um fired or firefighters that came

00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:47.140
to help because they were all understaffed like

00:28:47.140 --> 00:28:50.460
you had said so they said you know the response

00:28:50.460 --> 00:28:52.160
i'm pretty probably wouldn't better if they were

00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:54.160
up to full staff and not having to pull people

00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:57.420
out of their homes to come and help so yeah i

00:28:57.420 --> 00:29:02.920
mean that's a prime example you know um uh just

00:29:02.920 --> 00:29:07.299
misdirecting uh what's truly needed and valued

00:29:07.299 --> 00:29:11.200
um which is And, you know, getting them the proper

00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:15.339
resources, you know, to work these long hours

00:29:15.339 --> 00:29:19.599
or these hours. Right. So, yeah, it's it's it's

00:29:19.599 --> 00:29:23.480
crazy that we're we're still in the state along

00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:27.559
our entire country. Yeah. The false economy is

00:29:27.559 --> 00:29:30.740
astounding as well. I think it was three years,

00:29:30.940 --> 00:29:35.460
if I'm not mistaken, in three years, L .A., L

00:29:35.460 --> 00:29:38.240
.A. F .D. I think it was the city of L .A. Their

00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:42.079
overtime budget was a billion dollars with a

00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:45.480
B. A B, yeah, not a million. In three years.

00:29:45.539 --> 00:29:48.299
So basically, you know, 333 -ish million a year

00:29:48.299 --> 00:29:50.779
on overtime. And this is, again, what you're

00:29:50.779 --> 00:29:52.480
trying. I don't understand how the financial

00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:55.920
gurus in these organizations are not identifying.

00:29:56.140 --> 00:29:58.660
It's like if you put that money in to hiring

00:29:58.660 --> 00:30:01.319
another shift and give them a 42 -hour work week,

00:30:01.559 --> 00:30:05.180
the money is already there. 300 million. It's

00:30:05.180 --> 00:30:08.539
just proactively investing. But I won't go too

00:30:08.539 --> 00:30:10.200
deep down that rabbit hole. But it is, it's,

00:30:10.200 --> 00:30:13.559
you know, it's insanity that a, you know, borderline,

00:30:13.579 --> 00:30:17.500
you know, dum -dum from England can see this.

00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:19.359
But, you know, I mean, I'm sure the financial

00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:22.140
people in LA are probably earning, you know,

00:30:22.140 --> 00:30:24.099
hundreds of thousands of dollars for their job.

00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:26.559
And I don't, I just don't get it. Working people

00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:29.660
into the ground is a false economy. Oh, yeah.

00:30:30.019 --> 00:30:34.220
Yeah. It's... bean counters not understanding

00:30:34.220 --> 00:30:39.599
math and work and labor force and and costs and

00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:42.019
operations you know it's the wrong people it's

00:30:42.019 --> 00:30:45.400
the bureaucrats in there that don't have a good

00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:50.019
idea on operationally how you know first responders

00:30:50.019 --> 00:30:53.779
work and they they need to collaborate more than

00:30:53.779 --> 00:30:56.119
be these separate silos they've been working

00:30:56.119 --> 00:30:58.319
in silos and that's that's the issue you know

00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:00.640
collectively and that's government as as a whole

00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:05.660
anyway i mean it's it's waste absolutely well

00:31:05.660 --> 00:31:07.940
speaking of careers when you were in the high

00:31:07.940 --> 00:31:09.940
school age what were you dreaming of becoming

00:31:09.940 --> 00:31:23.299
oh wow um you know i i i was so into um well

00:31:23.299 --> 00:31:26.799
just into surfing i was but i knew i wouldn't

00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:29.480
be a pro pro surfer but i was like i'm gonna

00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:34.200
i want to do anything but get a real job. And,

00:31:34.339 --> 00:31:38.140
uh, and so I knew that wasn't real and I wasn't

00:31:38.140 --> 00:31:42.880
going to sit long with my dad. Um, but I always,

00:31:42.920 --> 00:31:45.680
I always dreamed about helping that. That was

00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:48.500
it. Like no matter what I was going to be ingrained

00:31:48.500 --> 00:31:51.660
with working with someone in some capacity, I

00:31:51.660 --> 00:31:55.559
always loved that, uh, symbiotic relationship

00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:59.059
and what it was in that time. I didn't know.

00:31:59.339 --> 00:32:03.900
I didn't know, but, um, but I ended up getting

00:32:03.900 --> 00:32:07.160
a degree. I never really utilized, but it was

00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:10.460
in the pathway of helping. I got a degree in

00:32:10.460 --> 00:32:14.200
speech pathology and audiology and then came

00:32:14.200 --> 00:32:18.680
out of school, um, went to Europe backpack by

00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:22.160
myself for four months, had an epiphany like,

00:32:22.259 --> 00:32:25.099
Nope, I'm going to go into teaching. And so I,

00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:29.710
I, I went into teaching and then, um, That was

00:32:29.710 --> 00:32:34.829
a great experience, but I hated going back to

00:32:34.829 --> 00:32:37.349
the government, the bureaucracy of things that

00:32:37.349 --> 00:32:44.250
just destroyed my fever for it. I loved the interaction

00:32:44.250 --> 00:32:50.109
of being a teacher and helping. I taught high

00:32:50.109 --> 00:32:52.710
school students, so that was really cool. I hear

00:32:52.710 --> 00:32:55.329
this young kid teaching these high school students,

00:32:55.369 --> 00:32:58.700
and I looked about as... as as as old as they

00:32:58.700 --> 00:33:01.619
did so there was confusion like he's a teacher

00:33:01.619 --> 00:33:06.619
um but but you know i loved that aspect of uh

00:33:06.619 --> 00:33:10.660
modeling and and um figuring out problem solving

00:33:10.660 --> 00:33:13.599
and working with them you know but they actually

00:33:13.599 --> 00:33:19.839
killed me uh and got out yeah it's so sad my

00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:22.279
son just graduated from high school and i gotta

00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:24.980
give i always give credit to the the teachers

00:33:24.980 --> 00:33:28.279
that he's had Despite the environment they work

00:33:28.279 --> 00:33:31.079
in, he's actually had an amazing academic journey

00:33:31.079 --> 00:33:33.799
with so many. He was actually recounting it the

00:33:33.799 --> 00:33:36.940
other day. I mean, 10, 12 great teachers in his

00:33:36.940 --> 00:33:40.640
journey so far that made a difference in his

00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:42.839
life. But you watch the standardized tests. I

00:33:42.839 --> 00:33:44.160
mean, I remember cringing. I think it was in

00:33:44.160 --> 00:33:46.400
elementary school, almost certain. These kids

00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:48.420
are sitting in front of a computer for like two,

00:33:48.519 --> 00:33:51.509
three hours. And, you know, so that they can

00:33:51.509 --> 00:33:53.529
do a test. It's not really about their academic

00:33:53.529 --> 00:33:56.990
achievement. It's to fulfill some bullshit parameters

00:33:56.990 --> 00:33:59.710
that that school can then get funding. And I

00:33:59.710 --> 00:34:02.670
had, conversely, Pasi Sahlberg on the show, who's

00:34:02.670 --> 00:34:05.049
from Finland. And now he tours talking about

00:34:05.049 --> 00:34:09.070
the Finnish education system. And, you know,

00:34:09.090 --> 00:34:11.349
if you don't perform well in America, you get,

00:34:11.369 --> 00:34:14.849
you know, the budget cut. You get less money.

00:34:14.909 --> 00:34:17.010
In Finland, if it's an area where, you know,

00:34:17.050 --> 00:34:19.880
maybe there's more. chance of struggling in that

00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:22.639
particular community, they bolster it, they give

00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:24.920
it more, you know, support, more funding, more

00:34:24.920 --> 00:34:26.739
teachers, so they can elevate that community

00:34:26.739 --> 00:34:30.400
as well. So you listen how, you know, the, the

00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:32.960
organizations are the nations that do it really

00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:34.880
well. And they're always at the top of that kind

00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:38.000
of, you know, success list. And it's just so

00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:40.019
different. But it's not that we don't have great

00:34:40.019 --> 00:34:42.139
teachers, because I know great teachers. It's

00:34:42.139 --> 00:34:44.699
just we shackle their hands with this kind of

00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:47.940
bureaucracy, like you said. Yeah. yeah it's my

00:34:47.940 --> 00:34:52.739
my wife was a teacher 25 years uh teacher of

00:34:52.739 --> 00:34:55.119
the year two times in her elementary school just

00:34:55.119 --> 00:35:00.000
just had a master's in reading um taught outside

00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:04.099
the you know had to teach to the curriculum and

00:35:04.099 --> 00:35:07.179
and the mandates but she always stretched more

00:35:07.179 --> 00:35:11.099
like her of herself like she was working seven

00:35:11.099 --> 00:35:13.880
days a week it was it was non -stop like she

00:35:13.880 --> 00:35:17.179
was passionate about like getting these kids

00:35:17.179 --> 00:35:20.360
more than what the standardized testing is. She's

00:35:20.360 --> 00:35:22.780
like, you know, this isn't real life. You know,

00:35:22.780 --> 00:35:26.460
she, she created reading programs that the school

00:35:26.460 --> 00:35:29.639
and district didn't have. You know, she like

00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:34.539
at her celebration of life, we had 500 people

00:35:34.539 --> 00:35:38.440
come to her celebration, right? Like students

00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:43.099
flew from 25 years ago in, you know, like just

00:35:43.099 --> 00:35:47.690
insane. And to your point, We have beautiful

00:35:47.690 --> 00:35:50.489
teachers. We have great teachers. It's just the

00:35:50.489 --> 00:35:55.650
system itself is so broken. I think in the 70s,

00:35:55.650 --> 00:35:58.969
Carter started the Department of Education, right?

00:35:59.210 --> 00:36:04.429
And that was like, you know, what hampered everything

00:36:04.429 --> 00:36:06.849
was that the central government took over the

00:36:06.849 --> 00:36:09.230
education when it should be done stateside because

00:36:09.230 --> 00:36:13.070
the states know more about. the student populations

00:36:13.070 --> 00:36:16.789
and demographics, right. Then the government,

00:36:16.849 --> 00:36:20.150
which is a million miles away from what's going

00:36:20.150 --> 00:36:25.389
on. And I think I, and I, I don't know the exact

00:36:25.389 --> 00:36:31.489
number, but it's been 10 to $20 trillion or maybe

00:36:31.489 --> 00:36:36.889
more lost, you know, from that, that composition

00:36:36.889 --> 00:36:40.420
of the set in the seventies. where we're at the

00:36:40.420 --> 00:36:44.519
bottom of the barrel in aptitude in the entire

00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:48.980
world, which is insane. And I think it's, I want

00:36:48.980 --> 00:36:52.380
to say it's about $30 trillion that we've invested

00:36:52.380 --> 00:36:57.119
since the 70s in that department. And we're at

00:36:57.119 --> 00:36:59.960
the bottom. Yeah. I mean, again, going back to

00:36:59.960 --> 00:37:02.019
what we were talking about with firefighter staffing,

00:37:02.260 --> 00:37:04.500
this is what I see over and over again. I mean,

00:37:04.539 --> 00:37:07.119
I've said this many times on here. I come from

00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:09.820
a country that when I was young, National health

00:37:09.820 --> 00:37:16.079
was thriving, but it was a very active nation.

00:37:16.460 --> 00:37:19.219
Sports were a big part of school, and a lot of

00:37:19.219 --> 00:37:21.340
people carried on playing sports after they graduated,

00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:25.420
and food was still arguably food. And so if you

00:37:25.420 --> 00:37:28.679
have a tax -based system and that inspires you

00:37:28.679 --> 00:37:31.940
to make your nation healthy, well, you save money

00:37:31.940 --> 00:37:33.900
hand over fist because you keep people healthy.

00:37:33.900 --> 00:37:37.119
You just use the tax for pregnancies. palliative

00:37:37.119 --> 00:37:39.139
care for the elderly and cancer and all these

00:37:39.139 --> 00:37:42.039
things that you know that that no one can can

00:37:42.039 --> 00:37:45.300
um foresee like you said but you look at our

00:37:45.300 --> 00:37:47.300
health care and people you know scream about

00:37:47.300 --> 00:37:49.440
increasing taxes and all that stuff and it's

00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:52.460
like we don't need another penny we need to go

00:37:52.460 --> 00:37:55.239
in and fix that where the money is being wasted

00:37:55.239 --> 00:37:59.789
and you know after the the pandemic There was

00:37:59.789 --> 00:38:02.409
one truth, you know, the sicker and fatter you

00:38:02.409 --> 00:38:04.329
are, the higher chance there is of you dying,

00:38:04.409 --> 00:38:06.369
period. I don't care if you believe in vaccines

00:38:06.369 --> 00:38:10.369
or Chinese, whatever it is. That is a hard, cold

00:38:10.369 --> 00:38:12.949
fact. And if you smoke, you're higher, you know,

00:38:12.969 --> 00:38:16.010
you're also more likely to die. So address those.

00:38:16.110 --> 00:38:17.510
You know, we were told they were going to make

00:38:17.510 --> 00:38:20.019
America healthy again. And what have we done?

00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:22.280
Removed red food dye in six months. Congratulations.

00:38:22.820 --> 00:38:25.480
That's groundbreaking. So this is the problem

00:38:25.480 --> 00:38:27.800
is that the money is always there. The money

00:38:27.800 --> 00:38:30.400
is downstream in all these areas, including education.

00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:33.219
Our teachers shouldn't have to beg the parents

00:38:33.219 --> 00:38:38.300
for tissues and pencils and paper. And then especially

00:38:38.300 --> 00:38:40.139
like you said, and then we end up at the bottom.

00:38:40.380 --> 00:38:42.440
But what do we do? We beat our chest and we say

00:38:42.440 --> 00:38:43.920
the greatest country in the world. Well, the

00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:46.059
politicians do. And they get people to believe

00:38:46.059 --> 00:38:49.000
that. It's like, no, we're not. And that's OK.

00:38:49.300 --> 00:38:51.179
There are some things that are broken and there

00:38:51.179 --> 00:38:52.880
are some other countries that are doing it really

00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:54.500
well. And there's some things that we do really

00:38:54.500 --> 00:38:57.460
well. But if you walk around believing that guy

00:38:57.460 --> 00:39:00.179
or that woman or whoever is saying at that time

00:39:00.179 --> 00:39:02.199
that everything is amazing and we're the best,

00:39:02.260 --> 00:39:04.320
of course, we're not going to fix it. But if

00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:06.360
you take a step back and you look at the statistics,

00:39:06.420 --> 00:39:08.139
like you said, with education, with obesity,

00:39:08.420 --> 00:39:12.090
with the opioid addiction. We've got so much

00:39:12.090 --> 00:39:14.469
that we need to do. But again, the money is there

00:39:14.469 --> 00:39:17.550
because when we have this reactive financial

00:39:17.550 --> 00:39:21.639
corruption that we have. Some people are taking

00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:23.539
that money. You know, William Morris, Purdue

00:39:23.539 --> 00:39:26.320
Farmer, you know, the weapons bank, they're all

00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:29.039
they're making a shitload of money. It's the

00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:31.039
nation that's suffering. It's the teachers and

00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:33.460
firefighters and soldiers and sailors and all

00:39:33.460 --> 00:39:35.679
these other people. And I'm hoping that there's

00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:38.699
going to be some sort of awakening finally, where

00:39:38.699 --> 00:39:41.480
people realizing like, look, we we need to roll

00:39:41.480 --> 00:39:43.739
a lot of these things back. We were an amazing,

00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:46.980
very healthy country in the 50s, for example.

00:39:47.219 --> 00:39:51.570
So we can get back there. Oh, yeah. It's crazy.

00:39:51.730 --> 00:39:54.570
Even like, you know, taking it back to the government

00:39:54.570 --> 00:40:00.789
side, I think from the VA or the amount of prescription

00:40:00.789 --> 00:40:07.630
drugs just in the VA given out to the vets was

00:40:07.630 --> 00:40:12.809
something like $309 billion of prescriptive costs.

00:40:13.150 --> 00:40:20.579
Right. And then of the. Of the 900 ,000, I think,

00:40:20.579 --> 00:40:23.300
that are in the VA, let's call it a billion,

00:40:23.320 --> 00:40:28.039
I think it's almost $17 billion in treatment

00:40:28.039 --> 00:40:34.360
for mental health and wellness issues. So, yeah,

00:40:34.519 --> 00:40:38.719
the money's there. It's just being funneled downstream

00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:43.159
when the shit's already happened, right? We're

00:40:43.159 --> 00:40:47.949
prescribing something that is... been going on

00:40:47.949 --> 00:40:52.050
for hundreds of or you know 20 30 40 50 years

00:40:52.050 --> 00:40:55.110
and doing nothing about it and you know what's

00:40:55.110 --> 00:40:57.409
that adage if you keep doing the same what's

00:40:57.409 --> 00:41:00.710
the definition of insanity you know well you're

00:41:00.710 --> 00:41:02.869
doing the same thing over and over again so yeah

00:41:02.869 --> 00:41:07.170
it's just just insane absolutely well speaking

00:41:07.170 --> 00:41:10.070
of that you touched on you know your own journey

00:41:10.070 --> 00:41:13.170
um as far as you know some of the kind of generational

00:41:13.170 --> 00:41:17.039
trauma and the mental health side Talk to me

00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:19.480
firstly from an occupational point of view. How

00:41:19.480 --> 00:41:22.940
did you find yourself going through the medical

00:41:22.940 --> 00:41:26.760
device world into ketamine psychedelics, that

00:41:26.760 --> 00:41:32.199
kind of thing? Yeah. Yeah. It was, you know,

00:41:32.219 --> 00:41:34.900
real transformative in a way that, you know,

00:41:34.920 --> 00:41:41.420
I remember the last day of this. device company

00:41:41.420 --> 00:41:44.280
I was working for. It was more of a, at this

00:41:44.280 --> 00:41:46.820
point it was a SAS company. It was a software

00:41:46.820 --> 00:41:57.559
automated company where I basically sold to see,

00:41:57.559 --> 00:41:59.659
Hey, I'm not coming back. And he said, well,

00:41:59.739 --> 00:42:02.980
what do you need some time off? I'm like, yeah,

00:42:03.019 --> 00:42:05.159
I need some time. He said, do you need a month

00:42:05.159 --> 00:42:08.119
off? I'm like, no. He's like, you need two months.

00:42:08.179 --> 00:42:11.130
I can do that. I'm like, no. He's like, how much

00:42:11.130 --> 00:42:14.269
time do you need? I'm like, I don't know. I need

00:42:14.269 --> 00:42:16.429
a lot of time. And he goes, do you want a sabbatical?

00:42:16.489 --> 00:42:19.769
I'm like, yeah, absolutely. And I knew when I

00:42:19.769 --> 00:42:23.769
said that I wasn't coming back. And I didn't.

00:42:23.769 --> 00:42:26.829
I didn't go back. I never went back into that

00:42:26.829 --> 00:42:32.530
field. And I went and worked. And then I was

00:42:32.530 --> 00:42:34.230
seeing a therapist. And she's like, you ready

00:42:34.230 --> 00:42:37.650
to do some work? And I'm like, yeah, let's go.

00:42:37.969 --> 00:42:40.909
And she's like, all right, let's. Let's go to

00:42:40.909 --> 00:42:45.909
an outpatient group therapy. So I went to an

00:42:45.909 --> 00:42:52.789
eight -week outpatient, five days a week, five

00:42:52.789 --> 00:42:58.090
hours a day, very intense. And then she's also,

00:42:58.329 --> 00:43:00.309
hey, what do you think about ketamine treatment

00:43:00.309 --> 00:43:04.690
as well? So I had psycho -assisted ketamine therapy

00:43:04.690 --> 00:43:07.269
treatment as well, along with this group therapy.

00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:11.059
that too was an amazing combination of like like

00:43:11.059 --> 00:43:13.139
i said before i was this lone wolf i was working

00:43:13.139 --> 00:43:16.059
by myself and and she's like we need to break

00:43:16.059 --> 00:43:20.679
that this habit this habitual kind of aloneness

00:43:20.679 --> 00:43:23.699
that you've got you know and then i jumped into

00:43:23.699 --> 00:43:29.599
um uh you know those those two modalities that

00:43:29.599 --> 00:43:31.960
she said you know and and and that changed my

00:43:31.960 --> 00:43:35.340
life from that that point on and jumping into

00:43:35.340 --> 00:43:37.940
you know this group therapy and being vulnerable

00:43:37.940 --> 00:43:43.460
right really open to um the process and and listening

00:43:43.460 --> 00:43:47.960
to the group and and knowing you can't them because

00:43:47.960 --> 00:43:52.300
they know you're you know and and then utilizing

00:43:52.300 --> 00:43:57.300
uh ketamine which was uh an amazing um dissociative

00:43:57.300 --> 00:43:59.920
that really opened me up to get me outside of

00:43:59.920 --> 00:44:04.880
my body right and and feel um feel again Um,

00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:09.599
and then with that through experience, I was,

00:44:09.900 --> 00:44:14.420
um, prior to, to kind of making this transformation,

00:44:14.539 --> 00:44:17.940
I was also working with a lot with vets, um,

00:44:18.280 --> 00:44:24.400
in, um, my, my, I guess, side time, if you will,

00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:29.440
or extra time. Um, and I would, um, set up, um,

00:44:29.619 --> 00:44:33.630
surf therapy. um, with, uh, a lot of the veterans.

00:44:33.869 --> 00:44:37.030
And that was my way of giving back. Like I said,

00:44:37.050 --> 00:44:39.750
I, I, you know, grew up within that world and,

00:44:39.789 --> 00:44:43.250
and, um, was always like, what else can I do?

00:44:43.369 --> 00:44:45.869
You know, uh, even though I had not served myself,

00:44:46.050 --> 00:44:50.730
I want to be of service. Right. Um, so I, um,

00:44:50.969 --> 00:44:56.090
worked a lot with, uh, the veterans in, um, and

00:44:56.090 --> 00:44:58.750
getting them into the water. being mindful of

00:44:58.750 --> 00:45:03.010
the this cathartic place right where you guys

00:45:03.010 --> 00:45:05.730
vets and first responders are used used to running

00:45:05.730 --> 00:45:08.570
or running to the fire if you will no pun intended

00:45:08.570 --> 00:45:11.030
right i'm used to going to where there's action

00:45:11.030 --> 00:45:16.050
you know and and that mindset of surfing gives

00:45:16.050 --> 00:45:19.869
them that but it also puts them in a place of

00:45:20.619 --> 00:45:22.599
being present and mindful of where they're at

00:45:22.599 --> 00:45:26.500
right like separating them from all the and noise

00:45:26.500 --> 00:45:29.219
that's been going on in their head or in at home

00:45:29.219 --> 00:45:33.000
or wherever it is right and so now we're putting

00:45:33.000 --> 00:45:35.980
them in a context of something bigger and powerful

00:45:35.980 --> 00:45:38.880
than them which is the ocean the wave right like

00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:41.239
you you can't mess around with the ocean like

00:45:41.239 --> 00:45:44.059
you you better be there or she's gonna she's

00:45:44.059 --> 00:45:48.039
gonna slap you and or drown you right so um so

00:45:48.039 --> 00:45:51.519
you've got to be there So this laser focus kind

00:45:51.519 --> 00:45:56.280
of centered of, of surfing and this adrenaline

00:45:56.280 --> 00:46:00.300
and then this creating this flow state with them.

00:46:00.340 --> 00:46:05.340
Right. And, and then the, the, the physical exertion

00:46:05.340 --> 00:46:07.340
that goes on it, you know, they're having difficulty

00:46:07.340 --> 00:46:11.079
sleeping. So this combination, you know, I had

00:46:11.079 --> 00:46:17.380
been doing, and then I said, all right, I'm loving

00:46:17.380 --> 00:46:21.519
alternative. healing modalities and medicines.

00:46:22.659 --> 00:46:28.880
I love working with people. My gosh, what an

00:46:28.880 --> 00:46:32.619
amazing experience group therapy was in ketamine

00:46:32.619 --> 00:46:36.820
therapy. Why not jump into being and learning

00:46:36.820 --> 00:46:39.179
more about plant medicines and psychedelics?

00:46:39.239 --> 00:46:41.320
And so I became a psychedelic integration coach

00:46:41.320 --> 00:46:46.570
and then intertwined. my my past like teaching

00:46:46.570 --> 00:46:49.829
experiences and and uh and then of course what

00:46:49.829 --> 00:46:54.329
i was doing working um with veterans who suffer

00:46:54.329 --> 00:46:58.230
from ptsd and surfing so i kind of just mirrored

00:46:58.230 --> 00:47:02.010
the two they organically came together um you

00:47:02.010 --> 00:47:04.090
know when when i was going through my own process

00:47:04.090 --> 00:47:07.010
right and and that's what i was looking for some

00:47:07.010 --> 00:47:11.000
some purpose of like what else can i do to help

00:47:11.000 --> 00:47:14.019
others work with people one -on -one right going

00:47:14.019 --> 00:47:17.179
back to my my my story of like what what you

00:47:17.179 --> 00:47:19.559
asked what did you want to do i knew i wanted

00:47:19.559 --> 00:47:22.179
to work with people and so it it kind of came

00:47:22.179 --> 00:47:26.719
full circle you know 25 years later but in a

00:47:26.719 --> 00:47:31.900
way that um uh i wanted to really guide and help

00:47:31.900 --> 00:47:36.199
people in a different way than what our you know

00:47:36.199 --> 00:47:39.269
again our prescriptive way of healthcare was

00:47:39.269 --> 00:47:45.489
going on. So yeah, that's kind of how I got into

00:47:45.489 --> 00:47:48.590
it. What was the lowest point you were at? You

00:47:48.590 --> 00:47:50.610
talked about the kind of disconnect, the lone

00:47:50.610 --> 00:47:54.030
wolf, the inability to fulfill through the life's

00:47:54.030 --> 00:47:56.550
checkboxes. Where was the lowest that you found

00:47:56.550 --> 00:47:58.730
yourself prior to this kind of beginning of the

00:47:58.730 --> 00:48:03.929
growth journey? Yeah. I guess it was just like,

00:48:04.030 --> 00:48:09.059
I was just full of anger. just, just vile anger,

00:48:09.219 --> 00:48:12.260
you know? And, um, and you said it yourself,

00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:15.800
uh, you know, same way I would, I would find

00:48:15.800 --> 00:48:19.500
every means not to be home, even though I had

00:48:19.500 --> 00:48:22.300
a beautiful home, you know, and, and my kids

00:48:22.300 --> 00:48:27.239
and, um, I would take extra trips, you know,

00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:29.699
for work, or I would say I was going on a trip

00:48:29.699 --> 00:48:35.360
and just disappear, you know? Um, and and i could

00:48:35.360 --> 00:48:41.599
that was my job right um so so yeah i i i wasn't

00:48:41.599 --> 00:48:45.260
living a a true life you know i was kind of living

00:48:45.260 --> 00:48:50.460
a double life um you know using uh smoke a lot

00:48:50.460 --> 00:48:54.179
of marijuana you know drinking just doing all

00:48:54.179 --> 00:48:57.760
the things that um you know you wouldn't know

00:48:57.760 --> 00:48:59.739
on the surface because i was good at like just

00:49:01.110 --> 00:49:03.170
burying it really. And then, and then it just,

00:49:03.170 --> 00:49:05.809
it just hit me one day. I remember my head like

00:49:05.809 --> 00:49:09.590
popping, you know, of, and just spinning and

00:49:09.590 --> 00:49:12.269
this ring wouldn't come out of my ear. I couldn't

00:49:12.269 --> 00:49:14.929
think straight. I couldn't talk. I was, you know,

00:49:14.929 --> 00:49:18.550
comatose if you will. Um, couldn't get out of

00:49:18.550 --> 00:49:21.650
bed. Um, wouldn't eat. It wouldn't work out.

00:49:21.710 --> 00:49:25.030
I didn't surf for a year, you know, that speaks

00:49:25.030 --> 00:49:28.349
volumes. Yeah, it was bad. Oh yeah. It was bad.

00:49:28.969 --> 00:49:33.210
It was. It was bad. When people talk about ketamine,

00:49:33.389 --> 00:49:36.929
you usually get one of two responses. Either

00:49:36.929 --> 00:49:40.190
they found it very helpful or there's some that

00:49:40.190 --> 00:49:43.769
say it didn't work for me. And so far to date,

00:49:43.889 --> 00:49:47.050
everyone that I personally have met that didn't

00:49:47.050 --> 00:49:51.909
have some sort of good response to it, when you

00:49:51.909 --> 00:49:54.030
ask them what did that look like, well, they

00:49:54.030 --> 00:49:56.530
came in, they put an IV in, they started the

00:49:56.530 --> 00:49:59.690
drip, and then they walked out. Versus, you know,

00:49:59.690 --> 00:50:01.909
actually having someone there to help unpack,

00:50:02.150 --> 00:50:03.550
you know, and it's the same, obviously, with

00:50:03.550 --> 00:50:05.130
ayahuasca and some other things. If you're just

00:50:05.130 --> 00:50:07.789
taking the drug and you're not really being guided

00:50:07.789 --> 00:50:09.690
in whatever shape or form that looks like, whether

00:50:09.690 --> 00:50:12.769
it's a shaman or a psychotherapist, I think that's

00:50:12.769 --> 00:50:14.550
the missing piece of a lot of these therapies.

00:50:14.690 --> 00:50:17.730
So with your ketamine experience, was it guided

00:50:17.730 --> 00:50:21.510
while you were taking it? Yeah. So that's what

00:50:21.510 --> 00:50:24.530
turned me on, too, was I worked with, obviously,

00:50:24.630 --> 00:50:27.449
I had a psychotherapist. So it was a team, you

00:50:27.449 --> 00:50:31.150
know. And then and then I had a coach as well.

00:50:31.650 --> 00:50:37.630
And that really helped me understand what, you

00:50:37.630 --> 00:50:40.309
know, I had used recreationally, you know, I

00:50:40.309 --> 00:50:44.769
had done psilocybin and and LSD, you know, as

00:50:44.769 --> 00:50:46.929
a kid and an adult here and there. But it was

00:50:46.929 --> 00:50:50.150
all it wasn't with intention. Right. It was it

00:50:50.150 --> 00:50:51.769
was record, which is fine. You know, like we

00:50:51.769 --> 00:50:54.269
all we all got our vices and you want to detach

00:50:54.269 --> 00:50:58.820
and have fun and all good. But but. This was

00:50:58.820 --> 00:51:05.500
necessary for you to to have that that coach

00:51:05.500 --> 00:51:11.679
and that that preparation, because these psychedelics

00:51:11.679 --> 00:51:14.000
have handles. Right. And you got to understand

00:51:14.000 --> 00:51:17.619
each handle that they have, meaning that it's

00:51:17.619 --> 00:51:22.769
not just doing the drug or the psychedelic. Or

00:51:22.769 --> 00:51:25.469
the plant medicine. It's, it's you coming in

00:51:25.469 --> 00:51:30.309
with intention and understanding that it's, it's,

00:51:30.309 --> 00:51:34.829
if it was a magic pill, right. You and I wouldn't

00:51:34.829 --> 00:51:38.750
be talking right now. Like I'd be good. I'd be

00:51:38.750 --> 00:51:41.690
sitting on a, on a Island count all the money

00:51:41.690 --> 00:51:46.829
because I found this magic potion and, and I'm

00:51:46.829 --> 00:51:49.730
good. And, and we would already have bottled

00:51:49.730 --> 00:51:52.469
this thing up and, and, and it's, you know, little

00:51:52.469 --> 00:51:55.590
pill form and we'd all be good but it but psychedelics

00:51:55.590 --> 00:51:58.289
don't work that way you know these plant medicines

00:51:58.289 --> 00:52:03.349
don't work that way and you need um to get ready

00:52:03.349 --> 00:52:08.389
for this um aha moment this bigger than you moment

00:52:08.389 --> 00:52:10.989
right this this wow what does it really mean

00:52:10.989 --> 00:52:13.489
to like dissolve this ego because that's all

00:52:13.489 --> 00:52:16.710
we're driven by is this ego right and so yeah

00:52:16.710 --> 00:52:21.110
that that coaching aspect is so important and

00:52:21.110 --> 00:52:25.090
prepping you for tool sets that you need to go

00:52:25.090 --> 00:52:28.610
in through. And that's where I kind of, you know,

00:52:28.630 --> 00:52:31.570
procured these tools of like, you know, working

00:52:31.570 --> 00:52:36.269
on breath work and mindfulness, right? Journaling,

00:52:36.349 --> 00:52:41.210
supplementation, diet, like all these things

00:52:41.210 --> 00:52:45.309
matter. It's not just, hey, you know, let's go,

00:52:45.449 --> 00:52:49.269
James. Let's just, let's do a heavy dose of psilocybin.

00:52:49.980 --> 00:52:53.599
or ketamine or ayahuasca, whatever, let's just

00:52:53.599 --> 00:52:56.179
jump in and we're going to feel better after

00:52:56.179 --> 00:52:59.179
because these medicines don't work that way.

00:52:59.280 --> 00:53:01.260
They're going to teach you, but you got to be

00:53:01.260 --> 00:53:04.300
open and vulnerable to the process and give up

00:53:04.300 --> 00:53:06.619
control. And that's the hard thing to do, right?

00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:09.980
We're used to, you know, firefighters, anyone,

00:53:10.280 --> 00:53:12.699
you know, CEOs, moms, dads, it doesn't matter,

00:53:12.780 --> 00:53:15.380
right? We live in a world like I want to control

00:53:15.380 --> 00:53:18.480
everything. We cannot control these medicines.

00:53:19.369 --> 00:53:21.869
It's it's if you do, you're going to you're going

00:53:21.869 --> 00:53:25.090
and you're going to have a rough time, you know.

00:53:25.369 --> 00:53:29.570
So so that was a big. That was an aha moment

00:53:29.570 --> 00:53:32.210
before I even did the medicine was this control,

00:53:32.429 --> 00:53:33.889
because that's all I wanted to fucking do. I

00:53:33.889 --> 00:53:35.650
want to control everything. I want to control

00:53:35.650 --> 00:53:40.090
you. I want to control the next step I was going

00:53:40.090 --> 00:53:45.070
to utilize within my family or work or the things

00:53:45.070 --> 00:53:47.849
I love to do. I was just I want to control everything.

00:53:48.880 --> 00:53:53.480
you know, and, and that was, I think, um, that's

00:53:53.480 --> 00:53:55.960
what, what broke me was working with, you know,

00:53:55.960 --> 00:53:58.860
the psychotherapist and this coach, like, you

00:53:58.860 --> 00:54:00.980
know, if you're going to jump into this, you

00:54:00.980 --> 00:54:03.659
gotta let, you gotta let that shit go. This is

00:54:03.659 --> 00:54:05.940
not going to work. And we got to do work before

00:54:05.940 --> 00:54:09.239
we even jump into, you know, talking about or

00:54:09.239 --> 00:54:12.719
utilizing, you know, the medicine. You mentioned

00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:14.760
some of our mutual friends. One of them is Catherine

00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:19.000
Walker. from so was the your ketamine journey

00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:24.079
what that led you to her no i i um great question

00:54:24.079 --> 00:54:30.659
no she's she's wonderful um no we i i had hooked

00:54:30.659 --> 00:54:35.159
up with her through um kind of reaching out and

00:54:35.159 --> 00:54:38.760
looking to see how she was um working with first

00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:43.510
responders and then we just gelled together for

00:54:43.510 --> 00:54:47.349
our first conversation. And then she had me speak

00:54:47.349 --> 00:54:50.550
on one of her webinars to first responders because

00:54:50.550 --> 00:54:52.329
I've been working with them for a year, but I

00:54:52.329 --> 00:54:54.750
wanted to get a little deeper, you know, with

00:54:54.750 --> 00:54:58.710
first responders as a coach. Right. And, but

00:54:58.710 --> 00:55:02.750
I, but I also knew that the system itself from

00:55:02.750 --> 00:55:05.230
the ketamine therapy side or the ketamine clinics

00:55:05.230 --> 00:55:10.630
was broken because, you know, like you said,

00:55:11.280 --> 00:55:16.480
All you need is an MD license and a nurse practitioner

00:55:16.480 --> 00:55:20.760
to start a ketamine clinic. I mean, that is bare

00:55:20.760 --> 00:55:24.019
bones. And a lot were like that, right? And so

00:55:24.019 --> 00:55:28.619
people were coming into them going, okay, yeah,

00:55:28.699 --> 00:55:32.659
I'm having issues with anxiety, depression, substance

00:55:32.659 --> 00:55:37.559
abuse, pain. The list goes on, right? But then

00:55:37.559 --> 00:55:41.360
there was no preparation. And on the home front

00:55:41.360 --> 00:55:45.699
here, I have a couple of psychotherapists, neurotherapists

00:55:45.699 --> 00:55:48.039
I work with as a team. And then they would say,

00:55:48.159 --> 00:55:51.320
hey, I got a person for you I want to defrag

00:55:51.320 --> 00:55:53.300
because they had a bad experience with ketamine.

00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:55.980
I'm like, oh, and I knew exactly what it was.

00:55:56.039 --> 00:55:58.860
It was the initial preparation and no integration.

00:55:59.579 --> 00:56:03.880
So long story short, Catherine and I had a good

00:56:03.880 --> 00:56:06.820
just conversation and I presented to a bunch

00:56:06.820 --> 00:56:10.400
of her first responders. And then I did some

00:56:10.400 --> 00:56:15.579
integration work for her clinic as well in Tennessee

00:56:15.579 --> 00:56:20.840
as a telecoach. And that's how we kind of worked

00:56:20.840 --> 00:56:27.260
together and created a bond. And I was also going

00:56:27.260 --> 00:56:30.340
to do some business development with Revitalist

00:56:30.340 --> 00:56:35.800
as well as she was developing her business out.

00:56:36.119 --> 00:56:39.440
as well so yeah great woman great great pioneer

00:56:39.440 --> 00:56:43.219
for sure absolutely another mutual friend jesse

00:56:43.219 --> 00:56:46.539
gold uh heroic hearts project so how did your

00:56:46.539 --> 00:56:52.900
paths cross yeah um same thing i i you know i'd

00:56:52.900 --> 00:56:56.590
gone through year year and a half of psychedelic

00:56:56.590 --> 00:56:59.889
integration training you know and then um i went

00:56:59.889 --> 00:57:02.510
to wonderland i don't know if you ever had had

00:57:02.510 --> 00:57:05.530
gone to that or heard about it's a psychedelic

00:57:05.530 --> 00:57:12.170
um um basic expo conference very very warm uh

00:57:12.170 --> 00:57:16.050
small um it was uh three and a half years ago

00:57:16.050 --> 00:57:22.630
i went and met jesse um there and um Kind of

00:57:22.630 --> 00:57:25.809
said, Hey, I'm, I'm been working with first responders

00:57:25.809 --> 00:57:31.389
and, and vets. And I would, and I've been following

00:57:31.389 --> 00:57:34.869
his trajectory, I think in 2017, you know, he,

00:57:34.949 --> 00:57:37.309
he was a banker and then got out of that and

00:57:37.309 --> 00:57:41.309
went through a whole ayahuasca experience and

00:57:41.309 --> 00:57:44.730
then created this nonprofit for. for vets to

00:57:44.730 --> 00:57:48.170
um get help you know for they were suffering

00:57:48.170 --> 00:57:51.969
from ptsd and and and all the behavioral and

00:57:51.969 --> 00:57:54.949
emotional uh traumas that that they had suffered

00:57:54.949 --> 00:57:59.449
and so i met him at wonderland we hit it off

00:57:59.449 --> 00:58:04.929
and then um and then he set me up uh within the

00:58:04.929 --> 00:58:07.210
coaching program and i've been there almost two

00:58:07.210 --> 00:58:10.550
and a half years and that has just been a beautiful

00:58:10.550 --> 00:58:15.980
experience um working with all the men and women,

00:58:16.039 --> 00:58:20.260
um, from the armed forces and just, just being,

00:58:20.400 --> 00:58:25.599
uh, indoctrinated into that, that family and

00:58:25.599 --> 00:58:30.320
learning so much, uh, from, uh, the, the, my

00:58:30.320 --> 00:58:32.460
clients that have come through that it is like,

00:58:32.559 --> 00:58:35.360
every time I'm done with a session, I just like

00:58:35.360 --> 00:58:41.079
that adrenaline. And that dopamine and oxytocin

00:58:41.079 --> 00:58:44.699
and serotonin, like everything is like just rising

00:58:44.699 --> 00:58:48.679
when I'm done working with all the heroic heart

00:58:48.679 --> 00:58:54.980
vets and clients that I have. It is truly one

00:58:54.980 --> 00:58:58.679
of the best experiences I've had. And just the

00:58:58.679 --> 00:59:01.780
growth I've gotten myself as well. Like you said,

00:59:01.900 --> 00:59:06.960
this symbiotic relationship that I've got with.

00:59:07.619 --> 00:59:11.079
my clients in there is great. And I have, you

00:59:11.079 --> 00:59:15.199
know, dozens of friends from that experience

00:59:15.199 --> 00:59:17.619
that, that, you know, I've helped put through,

00:59:17.739 --> 00:59:22.639
you know, you know, we, we, we, we see him, we

00:59:22.639 --> 00:59:25.929
do about six, six sessions together. you know,

00:59:25.929 --> 00:59:29.289
and, and, um, and then just, just nurtured this,

00:59:29.329 --> 00:59:32.250
these great friendships too, um, and seeing them

00:59:32.250 --> 00:59:37.130
evolve, it's just amazing. Um, so, so yeah, uh,

00:59:37.190 --> 00:59:40.250
Jesse is, is, uh, an amazing human being too,

00:59:40.329 --> 00:59:43.789
just, just full of, uh, empathy and compassion

00:59:43.789 --> 00:59:47.210
and, uh, and just a smart guy on creating, uh,

00:59:47.690 --> 00:59:50.730
uh, an organization that's also, you know, very

00:59:50.730 --> 00:59:56.960
upfront in the, um, in the, the being an advocate

00:59:56.960 --> 01:00:01.960
from how an advocate for changing how we're working

01:00:01.960 --> 01:00:05.099
with our mental health and wellness, you know,

01:00:05.099 --> 01:00:07.599
at the government level, right. With lobbyists

01:00:07.599 --> 01:00:12.639
and fundraising and studies. Right. So it's a,

01:00:12.639 --> 01:00:15.719
it's a really dynamic group at the real cards

01:00:15.719 --> 01:00:20.880
project. It's interesting. you know, seeing where

01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:24.239
we are now in 2025 and reflecting back, you know,

01:00:24.239 --> 01:00:26.340
everyone listening, who's a first responder,

01:00:26.500 --> 01:00:28.639
we see the ripple effects of drug prohibition,

01:00:28.739 --> 01:00:30.760
everything from the overdoses, the prostitution

01:00:30.760 --> 01:00:32.260
to the gang membership, to the homelessness,

01:00:32.460 --> 01:00:35.599
et cetera, et cetera. But then in these last

01:00:35.599 --> 01:00:38.340
nine years and these conversations I've had,

01:00:38.420 --> 01:00:40.579
you know, like Zhao Gulau, who's spearheaded

01:00:40.579 --> 01:00:43.579
decriminalization in Portugal. I've sat with

01:00:43.579 --> 01:00:45.619
him in Lisbon and then we did a second one probably

01:00:45.619 --> 01:00:49.369
about six months ago now. You know, and I'm listening

01:00:49.369 --> 01:00:52.250
to veterans who early on in the show were tight

01:00:52.250 --> 01:00:54.889
lipped about drugs in Afghanistan, for example.

01:00:54.889 --> 01:00:56.969
And as you know, the last few years, actually,

01:00:57.269 --> 01:00:59.030
there were opium farms and, you know, we were

01:00:59.030 --> 01:01:01.070
told to burn it one day, not burn it the next.

01:01:01.210 --> 01:01:03.250
And you just cover that the illicit drug trade

01:01:03.250 --> 01:01:07.710
basically funded Al Qaeda, for example. You know,

01:01:07.710 --> 01:01:10.739
and then you look at. These men and women, whether

01:01:10.739 --> 01:01:13.159
it's my population that protects the community

01:01:13.159 --> 01:01:15.420
or whether it's, you know, war fighters that

01:01:15.420 --> 01:01:17.500
were out there, you know, fighting overseas for

01:01:17.500 --> 01:01:20.320
this country and they come back and then they

01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:22.659
have to go to Mexico or Costa Rica to get the

01:01:22.659 --> 01:01:25.139
very treatment that, you know, for the things

01:01:25.139 --> 01:01:28.639
that they did for America, you see, or it's starting

01:01:28.639 --> 01:01:30.619
to fall apart now, which is, which is amazing

01:01:30.619 --> 01:01:33.860
because there's no clearer truth that drug prohibition

01:01:33.860 --> 01:01:36.300
is an epic failure. I mean, alcohol prohibition

01:01:36.300 --> 01:01:38.760
was, you know, that's why we know Al Capone.

01:01:39.199 --> 01:01:41.579
And they stopped it. But then Harry Anslinger

01:01:41.579 --> 01:01:43.159
on the back end of that was like, well, I've

01:01:43.159 --> 01:01:45.159
got to justify my job and I'm a screaming racist.

01:01:45.460 --> 01:01:47.679
So let's do reefer madness and let's get this

01:01:47.679 --> 01:01:49.820
drug prohibition thing going. And that was in

01:01:49.820 --> 01:01:53.400
the 30s. So 80 plus years later, we realized,

01:01:53.559 --> 01:01:57.039
no, this is not working. And it's amazing to

01:01:57.039 --> 01:02:00.360
see the men and women, boots on the ground, advocating

01:02:00.360 --> 01:02:02.900
this. And I've had hundreds of people on this

01:02:02.900 --> 01:02:05.300
show. whose lives have been turned around in

01:02:05.300 --> 01:02:07.940
part by some sort of, you know, whether it's

01:02:07.940 --> 01:02:10.699
MDMA, ketamine, ayahuasca, ibogaine, you know,

01:02:10.719 --> 01:02:13.900
insert thing here. But then you see the pushback

01:02:13.900 --> 01:02:17.440
from bureaucracy. You see, you know, the OxyContin

01:02:17.440 --> 01:02:20.320
get approved by the FDA and MDMA -led therapy

01:02:20.320 --> 01:02:24.960
being disproved by the FDA. So it's clear as

01:02:24.960 --> 01:02:27.000
day. And going back to bureaucracy, whether it's

01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:28.699
education, whether it's the fire department,

01:02:28.880 --> 01:02:31.719
I think now people are starting to realize that

01:02:31.719 --> 01:02:34.780
in so many areas, I mean, take the funding. How

01:02:34.780 --> 01:02:37.760
much does it cost to fight drug prohibition?

01:02:37.780 --> 01:02:39.340
We're not talking about smugglers. We're not

01:02:39.340 --> 01:02:41.699
talking about dealers. They go to prison in Portugal.

01:02:41.820 --> 01:02:44.219
We're talking about the addict and encircling

01:02:44.219 --> 01:02:47.219
them and getting them the help they need. And

01:02:47.219 --> 01:02:50.420
also, as you said, all the psych meds that don't

01:02:50.420 --> 01:02:53.920
work. We're talking arguably close to trillions,

01:02:53.920 --> 01:02:56.900
I would imagine. So the money is there to invest

01:02:56.900 --> 01:02:59.760
in the mental health therapies that actually

01:02:59.760 --> 01:03:02.239
work and job creation and housing and all these

01:03:02.239 --> 01:03:05.000
other areas that Portugal does. And I think all

01:03:05.000 --> 01:03:07.880
these psychedelics and ketamine and MDMA that

01:03:07.880 --> 01:03:11.619
we're seeing now, which is kind of funny, I was

01:03:11.619 --> 01:03:14.119
honest on the very first fire application I ever

01:03:14.119 --> 01:03:18.400
filled in. I did MDMA and I did... psilocybin

01:03:18.400 --> 01:03:20.280
in japan mushrooms were legal when i was there

01:03:20.280 --> 01:03:22.400
and they screwed up the application and threw

01:03:22.400 --> 01:03:25.440
it at me now here we are and the same compounds

01:03:25.440 --> 01:03:28.699
are healing first responders so yeah but i mean

01:03:28.699 --> 01:03:30.780
just kind of rounding off that thought process

01:03:30.780 --> 01:03:33.260
i think there is a revolution coming because

01:03:33.260 --> 01:03:35.159
people are starting to have an awakening that

01:03:35.159 --> 01:03:38.539
this ancient plant medicine has survived the

01:03:38.539 --> 01:03:43.340
trials of time because it actually works oh yeah

01:03:43.340 --> 01:03:46.980
i mean i mean it's crazy like you know uh david

01:03:46.980 --> 01:03:53.159
nutt he was a british um psychiatrist and neuropsychopharmacologist

01:03:53.159 --> 01:04:00.199
you know and he published in a study of these

01:04:00.199 --> 01:04:04.579
these comparative harms right of drugs and you

01:04:04.579 --> 01:04:08.400
know and i'll send it to you but uh it's basically

01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:13.429
showing you know alcohol um as the lead you know

01:04:13.429 --> 01:04:18.650
um harm for specific like mortality right and

01:04:18.650 --> 01:04:22.570
dependence and loss of uh relationships right

01:04:22.570 --> 01:04:26.750
and and it's literally it's like alcohol heroin

01:04:26.750 --> 01:04:33.949
crack meth cocaine um ghb antidepressants then

01:04:33.949 --> 01:04:40.409
at the bottom it's mushrooms lsd mdma yeah where

01:04:40.920 --> 01:04:44.039
you know like you said we've we've this we've

01:04:44.039 --> 01:04:50.199
morally um you know um legalized uh the most

01:04:50.199 --> 01:04:54.019
destructive in alcohol and uh you know what are

01:04:54.019 --> 01:04:56.159
the what are the the three most addictive you

01:04:56.159 --> 01:04:59.539
know we got a smoke break right cigarettes you've

01:04:59.539 --> 01:05:05.760
got happy hour in alcohol and then um and then

01:05:05.760 --> 01:05:09.820
um what am i missing what was the third uh smoke

01:05:09.820 --> 01:05:14.019
break happy hour i mean you could add in the

01:05:14.019 --> 01:05:16.119
shit fast food is the third one oh yeah yeah

01:05:16.119 --> 01:05:19.780
thank you sorry yeah you know and so thank you

01:05:19.780 --> 01:05:23.400
uh the sugars right and and it's like you know

01:05:23.400 --> 01:05:27.860
he lost his job as the uk's uh advisory council

01:05:27.860 --> 01:05:31.280
on the of the misuse of on the misuse of drugs

01:05:31.280 --> 01:05:35.860
because it didn't align with where all that money

01:05:35.860 --> 01:05:39.679
was being tempered you know and and then asserting

01:05:39.679 --> 01:05:42.900
that lsd is less harmful than alcohol which is

01:05:42.900 --> 01:05:46.119
crazy you know and and these psychedelics and

01:05:46.119 --> 01:05:50.360
it's been proven in a you know study since like

01:05:50.360 --> 01:05:54.599
real intricate studies since like 2018 and 15

01:05:54.599 --> 01:05:58.199
that um and peer -reviewed studies that they

01:05:58.199 --> 01:06:06.139
um they being these um psychedelics are don't

01:06:06.139 --> 01:06:09.500
have the, um, addictive properties to it. Like

01:06:09.500 --> 01:06:11.420
anything could be addictive. I could be addicted

01:06:11.420 --> 01:06:14.780
to, to water, right? Like I I'm, I could drink

01:06:14.780 --> 01:06:18.179
too much of that, but it's not as Richard suggested

01:06:18.179 --> 01:06:23.440
that, um, there, there, there's more, there's

01:06:23.440 --> 01:06:27.119
a lower potential of abuse than, uh, than it's,

01:06:27.119 --> 01:06:30.179
than it's, than what, you know, the Nixon cabinet

01:06:30.179 --> 01:06:34.219
had, had purported about these, um, uh drugs

01:06:34.219 --> 01:06:37.780
right so yeah it's it's it's all in the messaging

01:06:37.780 --> 01:06:42.159
and and who's messaging it right yeah 100 and

01:06:42.159 --> 01:06:44.440
then the tax too i mean i'm just thinking about

01:06:44.440 --> 01:06:47.840
it in england cigarettes are taxed you know immensely

01:06:47.840 --> 01:06:53.460
but how much is that also creating as far as

01:06:53.460 --> 01:06:55.480
resistance to completely eliminating cigarettes

01:06:55.480 --> 01:06:57.699
and again not making them illegal that clearly

01:06:57.699 --> 01:07:00.440
doesn't fix the problem but truly addressing

01:07:01.159 --> 01:07:03.539
addiction to it if the government is getting

01:07:03.539 --> 01:07:07.579
a large tax kickback from that product so i would

01:07:07.579 --> 01:07:09.239
argue it's probably the same with alcohol you

01:07:09.239 --> 01:07:12.239
know if alcohol is taxed at a certain point what

01:07:12.239 --> 01:07:14.639
are the you know what are some of the resistance

01:07:14.639 --> 01:07:17.760
to actually getting people off it because i mean

01:07:17.760 --> 01:07:20.420
you know i think that yeah putting it out there

01:07:20.420 --> 01:07:23.079
and removing the demand for it is far more powerful

01:07:23.079 --> 01:07:25.119
and it's the same with with the illicit drug

01:07:25.119 --> 01:07:27.000
trade you know i was talking to someone the other

01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:31.130
day You know, imagine if and we are the largest

01:07:31.130 --> 01:07:33.809
consumer of illicit drugs on the planet. Imagine

01:07:33.809 --> 01:07:36.730
if Americans didn't need drugs or like I said,

01:07:36.769 --> 01:07:39.289
we decriminalize addiction. So now if you were

01:07:39.289 --> 01:07:42.070
an addict, you were getting help. And, you know,

01:07:42.090 --> 01:07:43.969
if you were on an opiate, for example, you were

01:07:43.969 --> 01:07:46.190
getting methadone or some of these other things

01:07:46.190 --> 01:07:48.489
that's helping you wean it off. But in the meantime,

01:07:48.750 --> 01:07:50.269
you're getting back on your feet. You're becoming

01:07:50.269 --> 01:07:53.010
a functioning member of society. Again, you're

01:07:53.010 --> 01:07:55.590
paying taxes. Now, what does that does to the

01:07:55.590 --> 01:07:58.050
cartels? Yes, they go into other areas, too.

01:07:58.170 --> 01:08:00.809
But the drugs are still a huge part. Same with

01:08:00.809 --> 01:08:03.210
the Chinese with fentanyl. So, you know, you

01:08:03.210 --> 01:08:05.690
cut the head off the snake by healing people.

01:08:05.889 --> 01:08:07.889
It doesn't matter if it's alcohol or whatever

01:08:07.889 --> 01:08:11.210
the thing is. If people don't feel it as a void

01:08:11.210 --> 01:08:13.130
that needs to be filled anymore, they're not

01:08:13.130 --> 01:08:16.329
going to be compelled to take the drug. 100 percent.

01:08:16.729 --> 01:08:21.390
And just the scheduling, you know, of how they're,

01:08:21.390 --> 01:08:26.859
you know. classified you know uh where you've

01:08:26.859 --> 01:08:30.479
got you know opioids that you know as a as a

01:08:30.479 --> 01:08:36.399
scheduled um was it four and so there is and

01:08:36.399 --> 01:08:38.939
in those it's like you know tylenol and percocet

01:08:38.939 --> 01:08:43.060
and morphine and and then of course the derivative

01:08:43.060 --> 01:08:45.539
you know and fentanyl which is what 50 to 100

01:08:45.539 --> 01:08:51.039
times more Potent than morphine, you know? So,

01:08:51.180 --> 01:08:56.140
yeah, it's just this miscalculation of, of, you

01:08:56.140 --> 01:09:00.720
know, where these psychotrophics land and where

01:09:00.720 --> 01:09:04.260
they're at to, to help, you know, our general

01:09:04.260 --> 01:09:07.079
population. And of course, then, like you said,

01:09:07.199 --> 01:09:11.340
big pharma, big business pushes all in on the,

01:09:11.340 --> 01:09:15.359
on the stimulants and benzos and, you know, the.

01:09:15.880 --> 01:09:19.000
the opioids you know it doesn't end right um

01:09:19.000 --> 01:09:23.399
so yeah it's it's hopefully in this new administration

01:09:23.399 --> 01:09:28.479
we get um kind of uh a reorganization there um

01:09:28.479 --> 01:09:32.659
you know obviously we had some really amazing

01:09:32.659 --> 01:09:36.079
studies unfortunately they were kind of pulled

01:09:36.079 --> 01:09:39.220
apart with maps you know with the phase three

01:09:39.220 --> 01:09:43.140
clinical trials that they did with mdma and and

01:09:43.140 --> 01:09:45.600
you know getting i don't know 60 or 70 percent

01:09:45.600 --> 01:09:48.579
of those who received mdma but it was psycho

01:09:48.579 --> 01:09:52.380
it was assisted therapy as well right no longer

01:09:52.380 --> 01:09:57.180
met the the need for ptsd or or met the criteria

01:09:57.180 --> 01:09:59.819
after like two or three months so and again i

01:09:59.819 --> 01:10:02.500
granted i know they pulled apart um you know

01:10:02.500 --> 01:10:06.699
the how the the studies were conducted but they

01:10:06.699 --> 01:10:10.489
but they couldn't you know take away what was

01:10:10.489 --> 01:10:14.050
clinically found offer off a massive scale of,

01:10:14.050 --> 01:10:18.770
of patients and veterans going through that,

01:10:18.869 --> 01:10:22.350
um, that phase three trial. So, yeah, we, we

01:10:22.350 --> 01:10:26.130
definitely got to look at how we're, um, looking

01:10:26.130 --> 01:10:33.529
at our, our, um, our drug category categorization,

01:10:33.989 --> 01:10:36.210
you know, and, and how they're, you know, what

01:10:36.210 --> 01:10:39.130
they're really doing and giving people access

01:10:39.130 --> 01:10:44.109
to. help with depression anxiety ptsd substance

01:10:44.109 --> 01:10:48.810
abuse you know exactly so i'm with you all right

01:10:48.810 --> 01:10:52.250
well shifting to an exciting new technology talk

01:10:52.250 --> 01:10:55.069
to me about firefly vr how did you even come

01:10:55.069 --> 01:10:57.590
across that company and then start unpacking

01:10:57.590 --> 01:11:03.390
what you're doing with that yeah um great question

01:11:03.390 --> 01:11:08.470
um same thing it was it was uh You know, working

01:11:08.470 --> 01:11:11.850
in the in this psychedelic field and being in

01:11:11.850 --> 01:11:13.670
a great health and wellness coach, you know,

01:11:13.689 --> 01:11:16.609
it's a tough it's a tough climb. Right. You know,

01:11:16.609 --> 01:11:22.270
getting clients and making a living. And so I

01:11:22.270 --> 01:11:26.149
didn't want to necessarily stop doing it, but

01:11:26.149 --> 01:11:31.609
I needed I needed more. uh, support in, in what

01:11:31.609 --> 01:11:34.229
I was doing financially. Right. But I wanted

01:11:34.229 --> 01:11:36.649
to be true to myself and, and where I was going

01:11:36.649 --> 01:11:40.310
next in my next career opportunity. So, uh, a

01:11:40.310 --> 01:11:42.689
few psychotherapists said, Hey, you got to check

01:11:42.689 --> 01:11:47.529
out, um, uh, what Dr. Romig's doing here in Southern

01:11:47.529 --> 01:11:50.810
California at, uh, in Irvine or yeah, in Irvine.

01:11:51.210 --> 01:11:57.020
And, um, he had. He works a lot with veterans

01:11:57.020 --> 01:11:59.939
and first responders, and he's got his own clinic

01:11:59.939 --> 01:12:03.039
as well, an integrative health and wellness clinic

01:12:03.039 --> 01:12:08.979
using stellate ganglite treatments and ketamine

01:12:08.979 --> 01:12:14.659
and hyperbaric chambers and red light, the whole

01:12:14.659 --> 01:12:21.529
gamut. But he was using... Firefly VR's technology

01:12:21.529 --> 01:12:26.010
this virtual reality technology to help prep

01:12:26.010 --> 01:12:31.449
his patients in with ketamine therapy and I was

01:12:31.449 --> 01:12:34.250
like oh wow let's go let's go take a look at

01:12:34.250 --> 01:12:37.729
this because this is I and I came from the tech

01:12:37.729 --> 01:12:41.189
world I was my last kind of hurrah was with an

01:12:41.189 --> 01:12:47.640
AI company and so I understood you know These

01:12:47.640 --> 01:12:50.520
technical advances. So I had both minds going,

01:12:50.640 --> 01:12:54.600
right? I put on my coaching cap, right? And my

01:12:54.600 --> 01:12:56.359
tech cap. I'm like, all right, how are these

01:12:56.359 --> 01:13:00.819
two working? I'm really interested. And I went

01:13:00.819 --> 01:13:05.979
in and I said, hey, Dr. Roman, could I take a

01:13:05.979 --> 01:13:08.039
look at it? He's like, absolutely. So he sat

01:13:08.039 --> 01:13:12.520
me inside of it. And I was like, holy shit. Firefly

01:13:12.520 --> 01:13:17.510
VR has something that I. didn't think you could

01:13:17.510 --> 01:13:23.029
mirror as, uh, experiential and as grand and

01:13:23.029 --> 01:13:27.590
as, um, concise, um, as I, what I do as a coach

01:13:27.590 --> 01:13:31.829
too, like in, in, you know, putting my, my clients

01:13:31.829 --> 01:13:35.069
in, in the right place for the next step and

01:13:35.069 --> 01:13:40.109
you utilizing ketamine. And so I came out of,

01:13:40.130 --> 01:13:42.329
and I said, all right, you gotta, you gotta set

01:13:42.329 --> 01:13:47.039
me up with, uh, the CEO of the company. So he's

01:13:47.039 --> 01:13:50.079
like, no problem. So he shot me an email, uh,

01:13:50.340 --> 01:13:56.640
to the CEO and show man. And I, I hit him up

01:13:56.640 --> 01:13:59.779
and say, yeah, we got to talk. And, and at any

01:13:59.779 --> 01:14:06.100
rate, we met at a second year of, um, of the

01:14:06.100 --> 01:14:08.739
Miami conference of Wonderland. The first year

01:14:08.739 --> 01:14:11.140
I met, I met Jesse's second year. I met shell.

01:14:11.930 --> 01:14:14.529
I'm telling you, Wonderland, it was one of the

01:14:14.529 --> 01:14:19.529
greatest gatherings of minds from different fields,

01:14:19.729 --> 01:14:21.890
you know, from psychotherapy, neurotherapy, technology,

01:14:22.409 --> 01:14:26.529
you know, psychedelics, you know, individual

01:14:26.529 --> 01:14:30.090
shaman groups and healers, right? It was an amazing

01:14:30.090 --> 01:14:35.670
event. So I met Shel at the Wonderland. And from

01:14:35.670 --> 01:14:39.430
there, we struck a relationship and I just understood

01:14:39.430 --> 01:14:43.579
what they were doing. with this technology. And

01:14:43.579 --> 01:14:50.960
the Beachhead product was initially for ketamine

01:14:50.960 --> 01:14:55.439
therapy, right? They launched it for, they saw

01:14:55.439 --> 01:14:57.979
a niche and saying, all right, we know there's

01:14:57.979 --> 01:15:02.300
a void in that market where patients are not

01:15:02.300 --> 01:15:06.539
getting all the care they need to prep for a

01:15:06.539 --> 01:15:11.350
ketamine treatment, right? And so That that just

01:15:11.350 --> 01:15:15.270
blew my mind and seeing that and and then part

01:15:15.270 --> 01:15:18.869
of that team, too, is Robin Carhart Harris, you

01:15:18.869 --> 01:15:23.470
know, which is, you know, a staple in the psychedelic

01:15:23.470 --> 01:15:27.289
world. He was the first to brain map psychedelics,

01:15:27.310 --> 01:15:30.710
seeing how it's it's, you know, transposing within

01:15:30.710 --> 01:15:34.109
your brain and creating these different avenues

01:15:34.109 --> 01:15:39.600
of of of, you know. of neuron of seeing everything

01:15:39.600 --> 01:15:42.319
kind of light up in the brain. Right. And, and

01:15:42.319 --> 01:15:45.680
reignite if you will, dead areas that were, had

01:15:45.680 --> 01:15:48.560
not been talking to one another. Right. And,

01:15:48.659 --> 01:15:53.819
and so he was so I said, Oh shoot. Then they

01:15:53.819 --> 01:15:55.699
really understand what they're doing. You know,

01:15:55.720 --> 01:15:58.300
if they've got Robin Carr Harris, a part of the

01:15:58.300 --> 01:16:02.699
team and helping kind of develop the, the, the,

01:16:02.699 --> 01:16:08.439
the platform. And so, From that point on, I kept

01:16:08.439 --> 01:16:11.760
pushing and I said, hey, I'd love to come and

01:16:11.760 --> 01:16:14.520
work with you because I think there's other places

01:16:14.520 --> 01:16:19.319
that we can take this. And that was into the

01:16:19.319 --> 01:16:23.380
first responder and veteran world. And they were

01:16:23.380 --> 01:16:27.600
like, yes, this is good. We know this is adaptable

01:16:27.600 --> 01:16:32.229
into being utilized in multi. verticals within

01:16:32.229 --> 01:16:35.050
the behavioral health and wellness space. Right.

01:16:35.149 --> 01:16:38.109
It was they knew that, but it was it was a matter

01:16:38.109 --> 01:16:41.829
of starting somewhere. Right. And they started

01:16:41.829 --> 01:16:43.930
in the ketamine space. So we so we are working

01:16:43.930 --> 01:16:47.350
with a multitude of ketamine clinics around the

01:16:47.350 --> 01:16:51.109
country, assisting them in their preparation

01:16:51.109 --> 01:16:55.550
for their patients to get into that ketamine

01:16:55.550 --> 01:17:00.779
IV treatment. So the sanctuary, as we call it,

01:17:00.800 --> 01:17:07.880
is the actual platform. It's a highly modular

01:17:07.880 --> 01:17:17.699
technology or software component that is based

01:17:17.699 --> 01:17:20.819
around everything that we've kind of been talking

01:17:20.819 --> 01:17:26.270
about, cognitive, dialectical. All these psychological

01:17:26.270 --> 01:17:28.470
underpinnings that we get from psychotherapy

01:17:28.470 --> 01:17:31.930
are built in within the platform. All right.

01:17:32.270 --> 01:17:36.310
And then along with that is breath work and mindfulness

01:17:36.310 --> 01:17:41.989
all put within the context of it so that the

01:17:41.989 --> 01:17:46.729
clients and patients are now using VR as a way

01:17:46.729 --> 01:17:51.930
to relax and become transported in these non

01:17:51.930 --> 01:17:55.659
-distracting, calming places. And, and then they're

01:17:55.659 --> 01:17:57.880
outside of, you know, the noise that we've talked

01:17:57.880 --> 01:18:02.859
about earlier and inside this place where the,

01:18:03.039 --> 01:18:07.979
the, this immersive narrative is, is creating

01:18:07.979 --> 01:18:13.479
a place to let go. Right. And with that letting

01:18:13.479 --> 01:18:18.239
go is, is built in, like I said, these psychological

01:18:18.239 --> 01:18:21.000
underpinnings of, you know, dialectical behavior.

01:18:22.000 --> 01:18:26.560
and cognitive behavioral modules. But when they're

01:18:26.560 --> 01:18:29.359
visually in there, it's stimulating the mind

01:18:29.359 --> 01:18:35.520
to use their kinesthetic learning state, right?

01:18:35.640 --> 01:18:38.859
So you're doing both. You're actually doing stuff.

01:18:39.479 --> 01:18:43.100
And then it's also creating this imprint on your

01:18:43.100 --> 01:18:47.750
subconscious mind to immerse yourself in. the

01:18:47.750 --> 01:18:51.409
activities and these activities could be uh for

01:18:51.409 --> 01:18:54.470
instance one of them is called letting go and

01:18:54.470 --> 01:18:56.569
that's letting go of emotions that have been

01:18:56.569 --> 01:19:00.409
kind of anchoring you down right anger fear shame

01:19:00.409 --> 01:19:05.430
all those things and and so in that mode or in

01:19:05.430 --> 01:19:09.789
that um module you're being taught to kind of

01:19:09.789 --> 01:19:13.369
let yourself go self -regulate get get your central

01:19:13.369 --> 01:19:15.949
nervous system down with your with breath work

01:19:15.949 --> 01:19:19.960
then actually physically like throwing away emotion

01:19:19.960 --> 01:19:22.560
into the fire right so you're doing something

01:19:22.560 --> 01:19:30.640
so it's a it's a really dynamic um um technology

01:19:30.640 --> 01:19:36.329
that allows you to be you know you're not you're

01:19:36.329 --> 01:19:38.550
not static. You're dynamic in there. You're working,

01:19:38.649 --> 01:19:40.409
you're doing, you know, like, like we talked

01:19:40.409 --> 01:19:43.510
about. And then there's also, so it's, it's basically

01:19:43.510 --> 01:19:46.289
broken up in like these two components. It's,

01:19:46.289 --> 01:19:49.550
it's a, it's the fireplace where the, where you're

01:19:49.550 --> 01:19:52.250
doing these kinesthetic activities. And then,

01:19:52.250 --> 01:19:57.890
and then the study it's more educational where

01:19:57.890 --> 01:20:00.170
you're learning the why behind things, you know,

01:20:00.170 --> 01:20:03.750
why am I doing this breath work? What is intentionality

01:20:03.750 --> 01:20:06.930
mean? What, what is the, what are the biological

01:20:06.930 --> 01:20:11.430
components of, of breath work and how does ketamine

01:20:11.430 --> 01:20:15.109
potentially work through your body? But we work,

01:20:15.109 --> 01:20:17.710
like I said earlier, we work across a multitude

01:20:17.710 --> 01:20:24.010
of different health and wellness cares, you know,

01:20:24.010 --> 01:20:27.890
and that could be from a whole health. That could

01:20:27.890 --> 01:20:33.970
be from end of life in cancer wards, right? It's

01:20:34.380 --> 01:20:38.039
for ptsd anxiety substance abuse and addiction

01:20:38.039 --> 01:20:42.760
uh sleep right so a multitude of places that

01:20:42.760 --> 01:20:46.760
gets the peop the the patients to experience

01:20:46.760 --> 01:20:49.300
something that they haven't experienced in a

01:20:49.300 --> 01:20:52.380
while and like how does change occur when we're

01:20:52.380 --> 01:20:55.239
doing something truly experiential right that's

01:20:55.239 --> 01:20:58.020
that's the way things change and and the beauty

01:20:58.020 --> 01:21:01.380
about this and and why i jumped in this is is

01:21:01.380 --> 01:21:05.430
it really does mimic psychedelics um in that

01:21:05.430 --> 01:21:09.750
it's it's re you know when neurons fire together

01:21:09.750 --> 01:21:13.109
change happens and that's what's happening we're

01:21:13.109 --> 01:21:16.550
creating these these change states where we're

01:21:16.550 --> 01:21:19.789
creating this neuroplasticity and now the mind

01:21:19.789 --> 01:21:23.649
and now the body has the capacity to create new

01:21:23.649 --> 01:21:27.430
habits and rituals and because it's truly experiential

01:21:27.430 --> 01:21:31.390
being inside there so what does it look like

01:21:31.390 --> 01:21:35.039
as far as actually using it is it something that

01:21:35.039 --> 01:21:37.439
has to be done in a facility or is it something

01:21:37.439 --> 01:21:39.960
that someone can purchase a vr headset and download

01:21:39.960 --> 01:21:45.340
the software yeah no great um so we you know

01:21:45.340 --> 01:21:47.939
there's a headset right there i don't know if

01:21:47.939 --> 01:21:50.260
you can see it but but um that's the headset

01:21:50.260 --> 01:21:55.020
and um we bundle the headset with the software

01:21:55.020 --> 01:21:59.579
in one so you know it's just kind of a one -stop

01:21:59.579 --> 01:22:03.699
shop for you and we've got a multitude of clients

01:22:03.699 --> 01:22:07.720
that are you utilizing it you know we've got

01:22:07.720 --> 01:22:10.800
obviously uh the va we're in like 10 different

01:22:10.800 --> 01:22:14.899
vas across the country they're using it like

01:22:14.899 --> 01:22:19.100
i said in their sleep sleep side their um their

01:22:19.100 --> 01:22:25.079
whole life or whole health um we've got first

01:22:25.079 --> 01:22:28.689
responders using it at the agency level We've

01:22:28.689 --> 01:22:34.029
got first responders, psychotherapeutic groups

01:22:34.029 --> 01:22:38.149
using it. So, yeah, there's always someone operationally

01:22:38.149 --> 01:22:41.770
overseeing it for their specific client or patient.

01:22:43.789 --> 01:22:48.909
And then we work with the end user or I should

01:22:48.909 --> 01:22:54.010
say the client one on one in customizing the

01:22:54.010 --> 01:22:58.500
experience for. their clients so we we have our

01:22:58.500 --> 01:23:02.279
science team and we work collaboratively on how

01:23:02.279 --> 01:23:06.100
do you want this module to to be aligned right

01:23:06.100 --> 01:23:09.079
and there's basically two ways we do it it's

01:23:09.079 --> 01:23:12.539
it's one is called open play where we've got

01:23:12.539 --> 01:23:18.760
a multitude of activities you know and that ranges

01:23:18.760 --> 01:23:21.720
like i said earlier from a letting go to planning

01:23:21.720 --> 01:23:27.290
positivity to breath work and mindfulness body

01:23:27.290 --> 01:23:31.569
work, right? And then they could say, all right,

01:23:31.670 --> 01:23:34.750
patient X, go ahead and try these two modules

01:23:34.750 --> 01:23:38.329
and they're five minutes each or go pick, right?

01:23:38.970 --> 01:23:42.250
Or we have a more static way of doing it, which

01:23:42.250 --> 01:23:45.109
is on rails. And then you say, hey, you know,

01:23:45.130 --> 01:23:48.430
James, you're working for your fire department

01:23:48.430 --> 01:23:52.630
and you'd say, hey, all right, look, we really

01:23:52.630 --> 01:23:57.489
want to work on resilience training. Here I want

01:23:57.489 --> 01:24:03.149
these five activities to be done in succession.

01:24:03.869 --> 01:24:08.449
And then here's module two and module three.

01:24:08.529 --> 01:24:11.170
So we set them up based on how you want it to

01:24:11.170 --> 01:24:15.930
work as far as your workflow or experience that,

01:24:16.010 --> 01:24:20.449
let's say, your firefighting crew. you would

01:24:20.449 --> 01:24:22.930
like them to have or their peer support group

01:24:22.930 --> 01:24:27.289
is leading or after a critical incident, you

01:24:27.289 --> 01:24:29.670
know, you may have a specific way you want it

01:24:29.670 --> 01:24:36.130
to run for that individual department or agency

01:24:36.130 --> 01:24:39.590
that you're working at. A lot of the audience

01:24:39.590 --> 01:24:42.569
are in professions where we're chronically sleep

01:24:42.569 --> 01:24:44.670
deprived. So let's take a dive into that. Talk

01:24:44.670 --> 01:24:50.050
to me about the VR system and sleep. Yeah, I

01:24:50.050 --> 01:24:55.130
mean, it's it's it's powerful in a way that,

01:24:55.170 --> 01:25:00.689
you know, like you said, we so I did I did an

01:25:00.689 --> 01:25:07.310
open house with maybe 40 firefighters and and

01:25:07.310 --> 01:25:10.350
it was their first experience in it. Right. And

01:25:10.350 --> 01:25:13.270
so I had a couple of modules that I thought,

01:25:13.449 --> 01:25:17.960
all right, these will be good for for this. this

01:25:17.960 --> 01:25:20.640
group this crew here and so we had a battalion

01:25:20.640 --> 01:25:24.659
chief and an engineer and um the battalion came

01:25:24.659 --> 01:25:31.680
in sat in in on it and he was i think he was

01:25:31.680 --> 01:25:34.119
doing body scan yeah i'm pretty sure it was body

01:25:34.119 --> 01:25:38.579
scan and the intro to body scan was just doing

01:25:38.579 --> 01:25:44.289
some basic coherent breath work And so it was

01:25:44.289 --> 01:25:46.970
dropping him in. So, so right. Everything we

01:25:46.970 --> 01:25:50.689
do is like, like, how do we, how do we slow everything

01:25:50.689 --> 01:25:54.850
down? So, and when you're in there, everything

01:25:54.850 --> 01:25:57.609
slows down because you, you, you, you just detach

01:25:57.609 --> 01:26:01.869
from the, the station, the bullshit at home,

01:26:01.989 --> 01:26:04.750
you know, the bullshit of the station on and

01:26:04.750 --> 01:26:09.090
on and on. Right. So he, he drops in, he's going

01:26:09.090 --> 01:26:12.170
through the session. This session is probably.

01:26:13.069 --> 01:26:16.810
12 minutes within the sixth minute he's asleep

01:26:16.810 --> 01:26:20.529
and like knocked out of sleep and that wasn't

01:26:20.529 --> 01:26:23.630
the intent the intent was just you know to get

01:26:23.630 --> 01:26:27.529
him to just kind of experience it and we stuck

01:26:27.529 --> 01:26:30.229
an engineer in same thing fell asleep and what

01:26:30.229 --> 01:26:33.649
was crazy was there you guys are so adrenally

01:26:33.649 --> 01:26:38.770
taxed that they hadn't ever had a capacity to

01:26:38.770 --> 01:26:41.850
fall asleep you know whether it was on duty or

01:26:41.850 --> 01:26:44.310
at home Because, you know, you're always going

01:26:44.310 --> 01:26:47.930
right. You're always thinking, you know, that's

01:26:47.930 --> 01:26:50.350
that's just the mindset of a first responder.

01:26:50.970 --> 01:26:56.949
And and so in there that it was why it works

01:26:56.949 --> 01:26:59.409
so well is because you've got an internal coach

01:26:59.409 --> 01:27:02.930
working with you, you know, and I know that you

01:27:02.930 --> 01:27:09.489
guys, you know, have different organizations

01:27:09.489 --> 01:27:14.140
and. activities and and wellness opportunities

01:27:14.140 --> 01:27:18.180
that and groups that come to you but what happens

01:27:18.180 --> 01:27:21.579
is a lot of times you won't practice it because

01:27:21.579 --> 01:27:25.199
they're not in front of you right and this then

01:27:25.199 --> 01:27:28.779
is that it's the it's the coach teaching you

01:27:28.779 --> 01:27:30.520
all the things that they probably already had

01:27:30.520 --> 01:27:33.020
before you know learning about breath work learning

01:27:33.020 --> 01:27:36.520
about mindfulness you know but but not having

01:27:36.520 --> 01:27:41.680
a root a routine kind of orderly system that

01:27:41.680 --> 01:27:44.539
is experiential, that is knocking them, truly

01:27:44.539 --> 01:27:47.039
knocking that adrenal system down, like putting

01:27:47.039 --> 01:27:49.899
at, you know, getting them regulated, coming

01:27:49.899 --> 01:27:53.800
out of that dysregulated state and, and slowing

01:27:53.800 --> 01:27:57.220
down everything they do, that default mode network

01:27:57.220 --> 01:28:03.100
that's just been spinning. So, so yeah, but you

01:28:03.100 --> 01:28:08.869
know, So that's kind of how it works on its own

01:28:08.869 --> 01:28:14.270
in educating, you know, each individual about

01:28:14.270 --> 01:28:17.130
that anxiousness that they've got, you know,

01:28:17.130 --> 01:28:27.350
or that depressive state that they have. It gives

01:28:27.350 --> 01:28:32.550
them a sense of gratitude for where they're at,

01:28:32.689 --> 01:28:36.699
you know. And that's how it works. But then we

01:28:36.699 --> 01:28:43.899
would work on a set of modules that helps regulate

01:28:43.899 --> 01:28:51.579
what you see as the best way for them to find

01:28:51.579 --> 01:28:57.220
a homeostasis or a first getting into a place

01:28:57.220 --> 01:29:00.899
of where they will be comfortable in getting

01:29:00.899 --> 01:29:04.800
to sleep. What about addiction? On the site,

01:29:04.939 --> 01:29:07.340
there's mentions of addiction several times.

01:29:07.460 --> 01:29:09.279
So talk to me about the application with that

01:29:09.279 --> 01:29:16.340
particular disorder. Yeah, you know, it's the

01:29:16.340 --> 01:29:19.420
same thing. It's these purposeful intentions

01:29:19.420 --> 01:29:23.859
that they're not used to, you know, it's to quell

01:29:23.859 --> 01:29:27.880
those cravings, right? And most of those cravings

01:29:27.880 --> 01:29:32.420
are occurring because they haven't. been in a

01:29:32.420 --> 01:29:37.079
place where they can separate the two and recognize

01:29:37.079 --> 01:29:39.619
that all the things that they've gone, they're

01:29:39.619 --> 01:29:43.000
going through with the therapist are valuable

01:29:43.000 --> 01:29:46.560
tool sets, right? So this isn't to replace anything.

01:29:46.899 --> 01:29:50.039
It's an adjunct to what they're getting, right?

01:29:50.220 --> 01:29:55.079
So if, and it's a powerful adjunct because it's

01:29:55.079 --> 01:29:58.819
reinforcing what they're getting through in therapy.

01:29:59.920 --> 01:30:02.859
and and what they've what they what the tool

01:30:02.859 --> 01:30:07.119
sets that they've gotten from you know the therapists

01:30:07.119 --> 01:30:12.020
and the and the group um so it's it's it's reprogramming

01:30:12.020 --> 01:30:14.520
right they're they're now what it's doing it's

01:30:14.520 --> 01:30:16.819
creating new habits and rituals that they didn't

01:30:16.819 --> 01:30:19.140
have before their other habits and rituals were

01:30:19.140 --> 01:30:21.939
were you know i'm gonna pick up you know i i

01:30:21.939 --> 01:30:24.720
have that craving so i'm gonna go grab that um

01:30:24.720 --> 01:30:28.380
you know that glass of gym beam or whatever it

01:30:28.380 --> 01:30:32.180
is right but here it's it's teaching them oh

01:30:32.180 --> 01:30:35.020
my gosh i have a whole set of tool sets i can

01:30:35.020 --> 01:30:38.520
separate myself from or i do have the capacity

01:30:38.520 --> 01:30:42.619
to separate myself from um those uh addictive

01:30:42.619 --> 01:30:48.079
uh qualities it sounds like you know what i'm

01:30:48.079 --> 01:30:50.279
getting correct me if i'm wrong that like you

01:30:50.279 --> 01:30:53.670
said if if you know a a breathwork coach or a

01:30:53.670 --> 01:30:56.149
meditation coach comes in and they give us a

01:30:56.149 --> 01:30:59.310
two -day workshop you know that's fantastic but

01:30:59.310 --> 01:31:02.390
depending on the individual they might be super

01:31:02.390 --> 01:31:04.529
diligent with their practice or they may kind

01:31:04.529 --> 01:31:07.810
of taper off or not do it at all but with this

01:31:07.810 --> 01:31:10.409
vr system you're able to get those repetitions

01:31:10.409 --> 01:31:12.569
so no different than us practicing throwing a

01:31:12.569 --> 01:31:14.989
ladder or pulling hose or you know doing a mega

01:31:14.989 --> 01:31:17.989
code you're now able to get in that immersive

01:31:17.989 --> 01:31:21.800
state and the white noise of everyday life once

01:31:21.800 --> 01:31:24.300
you go into this virtual world because it's closed

01:31:24.300 --> 01:31:27.359
off you're more likely to enjoy each of those

01:31:27.359 --> 01:31:31.920
and therefore keep doing it yeah it's it's you

01:31:31.920 --> 01:31:36.439
know this virtual experience is permeating essentially

01:31:36.439 --> 01:31:39.380
into your limbic system right it's slowing it's

01:31:39.380 --> 01:31:42.619
helping it's processing emotions and feeling

01:31:42.619 --> 01:31:45.020
it's it's getting in that prefrontal cortex right

01:31:45.020 --> 01:31:48.359
and that the prefrontal is where decisions are

01:31:48.359 --> 01:31:54.180
made And then what you've now are doing is seeing

01:31:54.180 --> 01:31:57.640
like, holy shit, I do have the capacity to change.

01:31:57.840 --> 01:32:01.319
This was truly experiential. This left a mark

01:32:01.319 --> 01:32:05.000
on me. I'm searing away all that other baggage

01:32:05.000 --> 01:32:10.840
and there is another self and I am diluting that

01:32:10.840 --> 01:32:15.039
old ego, right? And so if we have the capacity

01:32:15.039 --> 01:32:23.810
to relax. and foster um mindfulness right and

01:32:23.810 --> 01:32:26.869
breath work and res and then we're receptive

01:32:26.869 --> 01:32:31.409
to these emotional changes are these kind of

01:32:31.409 --> 01:32:35.550
a new emotional um components i didn't have um

01:32:35.550 --> 01:32:40.250
okay i i'm more connecting to my deeper self

01:32:40.250 --> 01:32:45.430
you know and and then i know full well that you

01:32:45.430 --> 01:32:49.880
know i've been going to you know therapy for

01:32:49.880 --> 01:32:52.460
10 years and i just haven't picked up these tool

01:32:52.460 --> 01:32:56.279
sets like even these couple psychotherapists

01:32:56.279 --> 01:32:58.300
that we're working with that work with first

01:32:58.300 --> 01:33:03.039
responders they they love utilizing it um as

01:33:03.039 --> 01:33:07.520
a as a mechanism where the the first responder

01:33:07.520 --> 01:33:11.600
vet has sat and they've been in therapy for three

01:33:11.600 --> 01:33:13.100
months and they're talking about football the

01:33:13.100 --> 01:33:16.189
whole time well they're not there for football

01:33:16.189 --> 01:33:20.170
they just don't want to open up now what they're

01:33:20.170 --> 01:33:23.750
this the conduit to oh okay this is a safe place

01:33:23.750 --> 01:33:28.569
uh i feel good in here oh my gosh oh i did have

01:33:28.569 --> 01:33:31.289
breath work before oh this isn't bullshit this

01:33:31.289 --> 01:33:34.350
does work you know you know because they're they're

01:33:34.350 --> 01:33:37.329
getting all this visual stimulation stimulus

01:33:37.329 --> 01:33:39.729
stimulation they're getting this kinesthetic

01:33:40.079 --> 01:33:42.460
You know, they're actually doing stuff in there,

01:33:42.579 --> 01:33:47.159
you know, and it's in like nice jaunts of time.

01:33:47.600 --> 01:33:50.460
You know, you don't have to be, you can be there

01:33:50.460 --> 01:33:54.579
in four, five, 10, 15, 30 minutes. You don't

01:33:54.579 --> 01:33:56.260
have to be there. You can be there in an hour.

01:33:56.619 --> 01:34:01.119
It's not necessary, but these windows of time

01:34:01.119 --> 01:34:05.060
are enough and guided enough to get them to a

01:34:05.060 --> 01:34:10.399
place that is of purposeful. and intentionality

01:34:10.399 --> 01:34:14.619
and enhancing change you know so um so yeah yeah

01:34:14.619 --> 01:34:17.159
that's that's the kind of the magic behind it

01:34:17.159 --> 01:34:20.859
but it's it's in ingrained with you know these

01:34:20.859 --> 01:34:25.439
um all these different modalities inside of it

01:34:25.439 --> 01:34:29.140
that's kind of that ah that ah kind of aha moment

01:34:29.140 --> 01:34:32.500
that you have and and that's what was just you

01:34:32.500 --> 01:34:35.920
know kind of blew my mind was wow you're getting

01:34:35.920 --> 01:34:40.229
this and it is you know these parts of your brain

01:34:40.229 --> 01:34:43.029
are talking to each other. They haven't spoken

01:34:43.029 --> 01:34:45.369
to each other in a long time. This neuroplasticity

01:34:45.369 --> 01:34:50.670
is, is being stimulated and, and growth is happening

01:34:50.670 --> 01:34:54.149
just like psychedelics are. So it's, it's a great

01:34:54.149 --> 01:34:59.369
mirror of, of the two. And that's what, what,

01:34:59.369 --> 01:35:01.630
why I fell in love and jumped into it was like,

01:35:01.729 --> 01:35:05.229
okay, I got to get into this emerging space because

01:35:05.229 --> 01:35:10.850
I can only see how it's helpful. to our health

01:35:10.850 --> 01:35:13.289
and wellness space and all the bottlenecks we

01:35:13.289 --> 01:35:16.750
have. And there isn't enough therapists out there,

01:35:16.810 --> 01:35:20.909
right? There's not enough help. And so what else

01:35:20.909 --> 01:35:24.229
can we do specifically for first responders?

01:35:25.920 --> 01:35:27.500
Absolutely. I think it's fantastic. I really

01:35:27.500 --> 01:35:29.439
do. It just makes a lot of sense to me. And having

01:35:29.439 --> 01:35:32.539
done meditation, the headspace, I use New Calm

01:35:32.539 --> 01:35:36.380
a lot. And that really pulls you into an incredible

01:35:36.380 --> 01:35:40.020
down regulation or up regulation if you choose

01:35:40.020 --> 01:35:42.619
those ones too. But having that visual space

01:35:42.619 --> 01:35:45.699
as well, it kind of reminds me of when I used

01:35:45.699 --> 01:35:47.859
to go to chiropractic, we had to do all these

01:35:47.859 --> 01:35:50.619
exercises before they adjusted us. And again,

01:35:50.680 --> 01:35:53.220
you're prepping the body for the adjustment itself.

01:35:53.340 --> 01:35:55.479
Now, this time, especially with ketamine, you're

01:35:55.479 --> 01:35:59.239
prepping the mind for the journey with the counselor

01:35:59.239 --> 01:36:02.439
or, like you said, reinforcing work that you've

01:36:02.439 --> 01:36:05.840
already had. So it really does make a huge amount

01:36:05.840 --> 01:36:08.800
of sense. One more area before I go to some closing

01:36:08.800 --> 01:36:12.039
questions that I think is so understated, and

01:36:12.039 --> 01:36:13.840
it's because we're just so far behind in our

01:36:13.840 --> 01:36:16.619
profession, but whether you look at... you know,

01:36:16.619 --> 01:36:19.800
the fitness conversation or the mental health

01:36:19.800 --> 01:36:22.819
conversation, it's always about, you know, oh,

01:36:22.819 --> 01:36:24.760
let's try and get less of them to die. Let's

01:36:24.760 --> 01:36:26.720
try and get less of them to become addicted or

01:36:26.720 --> 01:36:29.720
take their own lives versus what it should be,

01:36:29.800 --> 01:36:32.039
you know, the ocean lifeguards and the special

01:36:32.039 --> 01:36:35.619
forces operators. It should be okay. Well, how

01:36:35.619 --> 01:36:37.600
can we get them to perform at the highest level

01:36:37.600 --> 01:36:40.199
and forge mental and physical resilience so they

01:36:40.199 --> 01:36:43.460
don't break? So talk to me about the performance

01:36:43.460 --> 01:36:47.720
side of this software. Yeah, I mean, like anything,

01:36:47.920 --> 01:36:55.840
it's a tool set that is now going to be a part

01:36:55.840 --> 01:37:00.279
of your everyday rituals, right? And it's not

01:37:00.279 --> 01:37:04.420
haphazardly done, but done in a consistent way

01:37:04.420 --> 01:37:09.220
that you're immersing yourself into the platform

01:37:09.220 --> 01:37:15.079
and its simulations. And it's enhancing you or

01:37:15.079 --> 01:37:20.399
refining you to understand, hey, this is a safe

01:37:20.399 --> 01:37:24.000
and controlled environment. It's, again, like

01:37:24.000 --> 01:37:26.020
we talked about before, it's an adjunct to what

01:37:26.020 --> 01:37:28.560
you're getting with that coach or strength exercise

01:37:28.560 --> 01:37:33.520
or psychologist or sports psychologist, whomever

01:37:33.520 --> 01:37:40.529
it may be, right? But it's not going to... It's

01:37:40.529 --> 01:37:45.649
not going to work unless you're open to what

01:37:45.649 --> 01:37:49.409
it's giving to you, right? But it's an engaging,

01:37:49.670 --> 01:37:53.590
you know, multiple senses that you're not used

01:37:53.590 --> 01:37:55.510
to getting, you know, whether it's the visual,

01:37:55.569 --> 01:37:58.670
whether it's a tactile, which is the kinesthetic.

01:37:58.729 --> 01:38:04.130
But the magic behind it is it's leaving a lasting

01:38:04.130 --> 01:38:07.500
impression on your subconscious mind. That that's

01:38:07.500 --> 01:38:09.539
the key to it. Like in any kind of training we

01:38:09.539 --> 01:38:12.119
do, right. Whether it's, you know, enhanced training

01:38:12.119 --> 01:38:14.640
preparedness that you're doing as a, as a firefighter,

01:38:14.640 --> 01:38:18.640
you know, or trying to reduce stress and trying

01:38:18.640 --> 01:38:22.539
to reduce, reduce stress, you know, it's you

01:38:22.539 --> 01:38:26.399
being open to the, what is being taught to you

01:38:26.399 --> 01:38:33.520
inside that, that module and then taking it outside

01:38:33.520 --> 01:38:36.680
of that virtual world. Right. which is a great

01:38:36.680 --> 01:38:40.359
place it's freeing and then recognizing within

01:38:40.359 --> 01:38:44.319
self or yourself that i can duplicate that same

01:38:44.319 --> 01:38:48.539
activity exercise out in the conscious world

01:38:48.539 --> 01:38:52.539
right um and that's that's what this does it

01:38:52.539 --> 01:38:56.039
mimics your subconscious it it just it it's like

01:38:56.039 --> 01:38:59.579
it's laying these these undertones that we're

01:38:59.579 --> 01:39:04.779
not used to um having because we're always you

01:39:04.779 --> 01:39:06.680
know, as we spoke earlier, checking the boxes

01:39:06.680 --> 01:39:11.079
or, you know, doing, um, what we think we should

01:39:11.079 --> 01:39:14.500
doing rather than embracing ourselves in the

01:39:14.500 --> 01:39:18.220
process and, and becoming less judgmental about,

01:39:18.319 --> 01:39:23.960
you know, um, what we're facing, you know, so

01:39:23.960 --> 01:39:28.319
it, it, it's just an opener to, to reset and

01:39:28.319 --> 01:39:31.420
recalibrate, uh, everything that we've been.

01:39:31.770 --> 01:39:35.609
initially doing and opening up to a deeper uh

01:39:35.609 --> 01:39:40.449
sense of of performance or levels or healing

01:39:40.449 --> 01:39:44.430
i can see as well i mean you can't get into a

01:39:44.430 --> 01:39:46.970
flow state without a calm mind you can't absorb

01:39:46.970 --> 01:39:49.510
learning without a calm mind you know you're

01:39:49.510 --> 01:39:51.829
going to be less likely to be motivated to work

01:39:51.829 --> 01:39:55.270
out with a busy mind so you know there's there's

01:39:55.270 --> 01:39:58.390
definitely a direct correlation between you know

01:39:58.390 --> 01:40:00.590
improving mental health and calming the mind

01:40:00.590 --> 01:40:03.869
and the physical side and the skill set right

01:40:03.869 --> 01:40:08.829
yeah you know a hundred percent it's um yeah

01:40:08.829 --> 01:40:12.090
that flow state doesn't come without uh work

01:40:12.090 --> 01:40:16.229
right and intentionality um but once you're in

01:40:16.229 --> 01:40:21.770
it um and then you've reprogrammed your your

01:40:21.770 --> 01:40:25.079
mind and held space for yourself uh that's a

01:40:25.079 --> 01:40:26.760
that's a whole different level and you know it's

01:40:26.760 --> 01:40:31.439
the same thing like you know all these you know

01:40:31.439 --> 01:40:33.800
stress levels these high cortisol levels that

01:40:33.800 --> 01:40:37.020
we we have are you know associated with this

01:40:37.020 --> 01:40:40.479
chronic stress and then you know then it's it's

01:40:40.479 --> 01:40:42.699
weight then it's you know associated with these

01:40:42.699 --> 01:40:46.319
various you know weight gains or blood pressure

01:40:46.319 --> 01:40:50.100
diabetes and weakened immune systems but if we're

01:40:50.520 --> 01:40:54.260
if we're maintaining and using preventative measures

01:40:54.260 --> 01:40:59.239
right you know and that's you know limiting the

01:40:59.239 --> 01:41:03.500
the screen time we're on we're getting um taking

01:41:03.500 --> 01:41:05.840
care of our bodies from you know maybe doing

01:41:05.840 --> 01:41:11.539
self massages uh um getting uh vitamin d uh eating

01:41:11.539 --> 01:41:17.140
a balanced diet supplementation right so yeah

01:41:17.140 --> 01:41:19.659
it's everything you're putting into it and then

01:41:20.140 --> 01:41:25.899
you know, that flow state will come more easily

01:41:25.899 --> 01:41:28.600
when you've got a set of processes rather than

01:41:28.600 --> 01:41:31.659
you trying to crowbar, excuse me, into everything

01:41:31.659 --> 01:41:35.760
you're doing on a daily basis. Absolutely. Well,

01:41:35.859 --> 01:41:37.600
I want to go to some closing questions if you've

01:41:37.600 --> 01:41:40.260
got time. All right. The first one I love to

01:41:40.260 --> 01:41:42.779
ask, is there a book or other books that you

01:41:42.779 --> 01:41:45.560
love to recommend? It can be related to our discussion

01:41:45.560 --> 01:41:51.920
today or completely unrelated. Um, yeah, I would

01:41:51.920 --> 01:41:56.979
say, uh, stealing fire, um, is a great book.

01:41:57.140 --> 01:42:02.979
It's basically how, um, uh, basically the Silicon

01:42:02.979 --> 01:42:08.340
Valley came in and worked with Navy SEALs, uh,

01:42:08.479 --> 01:42:13.399
scientists and, you know, revolutionized how

01:42:13.399 --> 01:42:16.899
they're all working together. or how they're

01:42:16.899 --> 01:42:19.619
creating flow states, like, so apropos to what

01:42:19.619 --> 01:42:24.979
we're talking about, on, you know, what these,

01:42:25.199 --> 01:42:32.560
how they harness these rare working places within

01:42:32.560 --> 01:42:37.439
the body, but also, you know, what's been kind

01:42:37.439 --> 01:42:40.300
of misunderstood. in history about, you know,

01:42:40.300 --> 01:42:42.560
some of the psychedelics, some of the alternative

01:42:42.560 --> 01:42:48.960
medicines. It's a great, great kind of biohacking

01:42:48.960 --> 01:42:54.819
book for your brain. But from really high level

01:42:54.819 --> 01:42:58.119
performers that, you know, your audience can

01:42:58.119 --> 01:43:07.359
really relate to. And the author was, he wrote,

01:43:08.119 --> 01:43:13.640
um, the Batman series, dark night. So he's got

01:43:13.640 --> 01:43:17.760
a really good writing flair. Uh, Steven, um,

01:43:17.859 --> 01:43:20.699
uh, Cutler is it that's what's coming to me,

01:43:20.739 --> 01:43:25.020
Steven Cutler. Um, and just is, is just big on,

01:43:25.220 --> 01:43:29.199
um, um, everything we're just kind of talking

01:43:29.199 --> 01:43:32.699
about. So, yeah, uh, it's, it's a, it's an amazing

01:43:32.699 --> 01:43:36.119
book. I highly recommend stealing, uh, stealing

01:43:36.119 --> 01:43:39.970
fire. Brilliant. What about films and documentaries?

01:43:42.090 --> 01:43:51.710
Oh, films and documentary. What I'm trying to

01:43:51.710 --> 01:43:56.250
think, gosh, I've been watching Mobland lately.

01:43:56.409 --> 01:44:03.810
That's been really good. Just to get away from

01:44:03.810 --> 01:44:10.239
everything. that's on um oh now they're streaming

01:44:10.239 --> 01:44:15.399
on on um netflix but uh yeah i mob lamb is something

01:44:15.399 --> 01:44:18.439
i just i just started getting into and just kind

01:44:18.439 --> 01:44:23.340
of going over the english mafia and uh you know

01:44:23.340 --> 01:44:27.560
taking me away from everyday um storylines here

01:44:27.560 --> 01:44:31.739
and just you know having having having a way

01:44:31.739 --> 01:44:34.529
to escape but that's that's the only thing that's

01:44:34.529 --> 01:44:36.189
coming to me right right now i know i've seen

01:44:36.189 --> 01:44:38.390
a lot more and nothing is coming to my mind and

01:44:38.390 --> 01:44:42.229
i apologize no no that's mine all right what

01:44:42.229 --> 01:44:45.310
about um guests is there a person that you'd

01:44:45.310 --> 01:44:48.109
recommend to come on this podcast as a guest

01:44:48.109 --> 01:44:50.810
to speak to the first responders military and

01:44:50.810 --> 01:44:54.630
associated professions of the world yeah i i

01:44:54.630 --> 01:45:01.409
do um um i i really think uh matt and i he might

01:45:01.409 --> 01:45:07.550
be in your in your um as part of our group that

01:45:07.550 --> 01:45:11.189
you know like i said we we first kind of met

01:45:11.189 --> 01:45:17.930
through um through linkedin and and then i'm

01:45:17.930 --> 01:45:21.050
not sure if he's any in your circle or not but

01:45:21.050 --> 01:45:25.869
but matt domiak he's he's an amazing uh retired

01:45:25.869 --> 01:45:31.899
um swat team officer chaplain spiritual director,

01:45:32.119 --> 01:45:39.180
former strength coach and sports psychology consultant.

01:45:39.560 --> 01:45:44.220
So I really, really highly recommend him. He's

01:45:44.220 --> 01:45:48.979
been a mentor of mine as well and just really

01:45:48.979 --> 01:45:53.140
highly connected and understands the body and

01:45:53.140 --> 01:45:57.739
mind and soul and spirit. And, you know, and

01:45:57.739 --> 01:46:01.750
as well was a. uh, a police officer in the, in

01:46:01.750 --> 01:46:04.569
the SWAT division for, you know, 30 plus years.

01:46:04.670 --> 01:46:07.409
So yeah, I highly recommend him. He's been on

01:46:07.409 --> 01:46:10.270
the show. It was probably, yeah, about, I think

01:46:10.270 --> 01:46:12.029
it was about four years ago. That's been a while,

01:46:12.130 --> 01:46:15.489
but yeah, we had a conversation. Yeah. I love

01:46:15.489 --> 01:46:20.010
Matt. He's, um, yeah, he, he's, like I said,

01:46:20.050 --> 01:46:22.229
in the last two years, come become a good friend

01:46:22.229 --> 01:46:26.550
and mentor. And, um, he actually did my, my wife's

01:46:26.550 --> 01:46:31.310
celebration of life. Uh, spreading of the ashes

01:46:31.310 --> 01:46:36.689
kind of ceremony. So he's just a solid dude.

01:46:37.630 --> 01:46:39.789
Well, speaking of that, kind of circling around

01:46:39.789 --> 01:46:43.689
before we make sure where to find you. You led

01:46:43.689 --> 01:46:46.289
us through this growth journey that you had and

01:46:46.289 --> 01:46:49.850
then you lose your wife. So talk to me about

01:46:49.850 --> 01:46:53.470
the tools that you had gathered and how that

01:46:53.470 --> 01:46:58.840
factored into this last year of grieving. Yeah.

01:47:01.340 --> 01:47:06.920
Yeah, I would definitely say I took from those

01:47:06.920 --> 01:47:10.119
experiences I went through, you know, like I

01:47:10.119 --> 01:47:13.819
said, five years ago and working on myself. But

01:47:13.819 --> 01:47:21.140
what was having those tools and going through

01:47:21.140 --> 01:47:24.239
and peeling away all those layers that I had.

01:47:27.819 --> 01:47:34.539
being more open and vulnerable and, um, and understanding,

01:47:34.800 --> 01:47:39.140
um, myself and understanding that, you know,

01:47:39.159 --> 01:47:46.899
um, you know, pain is part of life, right. Um,

01:47:47.119 --> 01:47:50.619
but suffering is a choice, you know, and we,

01:47:50.659 --> 01:47:53.840
we put ourselves through a lot of suffering day

01:47:53.840 --> 01:47:59.130
in and day out. And Um, and I was good at driving

01:47:59.130 --> 01:48:02.970
that, those, uh, those knives into myself, you

01:48:02.970 --> 01:48:08.350
know, um, and that taught me a lot about when

01:48:08.350 --> 01:48:11.729
my wife did pass that, you know, pain is that,

01:48:11.789 --> 01:48:13.590
you know, death is a part of life paint that

01:48:13.590 --> 01:48:15.569
as part of the, you know, the journey and the

01:48:15.569 --> 01:48:20.239
process. And, um, And I don't need to suffer.

01:48:20.359 --> 01:48:22.920
I will, I got to feel into those, those emotions

01:48:22.920 --> 01:48:27.159
and, and, and not bury them, bring them out and

01:48:27.159 --> 01:48:29.560
show them to my kids. And I'm vulnerable and

01:48:29.560 --> 01:48:33.720
open. And they taught me a ton about the resilience

01:48:33.720 --> 01:48:37.819
that they have, like this crazy gear that my

01:48:37.819 --> 01:48:41.460
16 and 13 year old had, you know, and losing

01:48:41.460 --> 01:48:45.060
their mother and something I couldn't fathom.

01:48:45.060 --> 01:48:47.340
I still don't understand. I don't. I, you know,

01:48:47.340 --> 01:48:50.739
I have my mom, I, that, that, that, that I, that

01:48:50.739 --> 01:48:53.579
doesn't as painful as this, that still doesn't

01:48:53.579 --> 01:48:55.899
resonate. I don't, I don't know what that feels

01:48:55.899 --> 01:49:02.180
like. Right. Um, and, um, but seeing them and

01:49:02.180 --> 01:49:05.500
the strength that they have, um, and the daily

01:49:05.500 --> 01:49:12.100
reminders of, of today's a new day. Yes. Things

01:49:12.100 --> 01:49:15.079
suck. Yes, it hurts, but we're going to get through

01:49:15.079 --> 01:49:20.159
this together, you know, and just the capacity

01:49:20.159 --> 01:49:23.539
that they have to take upon things that are bigger

01:49:23.539 --> 01:49:30.819
than them, you know, showed me I can do this.

01:49:30.899 --> 01:49:34.520
I can do this 110 % for them. I have to do this

01:49:34.520 --> 01:49:38.640
for them and for myself too. I can't, I can't

01:49:38.640 --> 01:49:42.470
go back to. You know, I felt there was a couple

01:49:42.470 --> 01:49:44.489
of times where I felt myself going back to my

01:49:44.489 --> 01:49:47.590
old ways, you know, and wallowing in the suffering

01:49:47.590 --> 01:49:53.850
and, uh, and knew that I, I can't go there. That's,

01:49:53.850 --> 01:49:55.949
that's not a, that's not a place for me. I can,

01:49:55.949 --> 01:49:59.510
I can feel it. I can take in that, that, that

01:49:59.510 --> 01:50:04.470
anger and, you know, and sadness, but I can't

01:50:04.470 --> 01:50:08.199
keep it anchoring me down. um you know i've got

01:50:08.199 --> 01:50:11.300
to keep moving forward and be in motion and movement

01:50:11.300 --> 01:50:18.140
be in community right um staying spiritual you

01:50:18.140 --> 01:50:19.920
know all that's important all these components

01:50:19.920 --> 01:50:22.439
are important it's not just one you know we've

01:50:22.439 --> 01:50:26.720
got to have a multitude of of these healing modalities

01:50:26.720 --> 01:50:33.680
um you know otherwise um you know we're we're

01:50:33.680 --> 01:50:39.619
gonna um If we're not leaning on to others, you're

01:50:39.619 --> 01:50:45.079
not going to come out of those tough times. And

01:50:45.079 --> 01:50:48.779
that's what I really learned was power community

01:50:48.779 --> 01:50:54.220
is so, so important. Beautiful. Well, I mean,

01:50:54.220 --> 01:50:56.819
thank you for sharing that too. It reminds me

01:50:56.819 --> 01:50:59.300
of Johan Hari when he's talking about addiction.

01:50:59.560 --> 01:51:04.279
He said the opposite of addiction is not sobriety.

01:51:04.579 --> 01:51:08.300
It's connection. I think it's true whether you're

01:51:08.300 --> 01:51:11.899
a grieving spouse or whether you're someone still

01:51:11.899 --> 01:51:14.699
trying to unpack the thing beneath the thing

01:51:14.699 --> 01:51:16.739
that's causing you to drink, whatever that is.

01:51:16.939 --> 01:51:19.399
That is the answer, is being around the right

01:51:19.399 --> 01:51:21.840
people, of course, not just any people. And I

01:51:21.840 --> 01:51:24.140
think this is what's so dangerous about this

01:51:24.140 --> 01:51:26.600
divisive push that we're seeing, where we're

01:51:26.600 --> 01:51:28.960
separating people and cleaving communities, whether

01:51:28.960 --> 01:51:31.699
it was during COVID or politically or whatever

01:51:31.699 --> 01:51:34.779
it is, is that... Humans need humans. That's

01:51:34.779 --> 01:51:37.899
why we lived in villages and tribes for our entire

01:51:37.899 --> 01:51:42.060
existence until recently. And now we have examples

01:51:42.060 --> 01:51:43.739
where someone could be in the middle of New York

01:51:43.739 --> 01:51:46.739
City surrounded by millions of people and feel

01:51:46.739 --> 01:51:50.079
bone crushingly lonely because we need that community.

01:51:50.420 --> 01:51:53.399
So, I mean, you know, your testimony is just

01:51:53.399 --> 01:51:57.600
underlying that. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. No. Yeah.

01:51:57.720 --> 01:52:01.119
It's, you know, we weren't born alone, right?

01:52:02.439 --> 01:52:10.859
And so why push that sense of belonging and culture

01:52:10.859 --> 01:52:18.600
and unity when, you know, a lot of us, and we

01:52:18.600 --> 01:52:22.020
see the divisiveness now, like, you know, on

01:52:22.020 --> 01:52:26.979
our phones. I mean, that's this thing is. it

01:52:26.979 --> 01:52:31.300
divides, you know, and, and from the doom scrolling

01:52:31.300 --> 01:52:35.899
to what I, what I don't have and, you know, loss

01:52:35.899 --> 01:52:41.060
of connection and one -on -one interaction, right.

01:52:41.180 --> 01:52:45.479
And socialization, it's, it's crazy. And that,

01:52:45.500 --> 01:52:47.439
and that, that's, that scares me too. That's

01:52:47.439 --> 01:52:50.020
what keeps me up with my own kids, you know,

01:52:50.020 --> 01:52:54.680
is, Hey, you know, this, there's a time and place

01:52:54.680 --> 01:52:57.979
for it and they know that, but, But on a grand

01:52:57.979 --> 01:53:01.220
scheme, it's kind of scary where we're at. Absolutely.

01:53:01.439 --> 01:53:03.979
I think the answer is community. It really is.

01:53:04.180 --> 01:53:06.180
Stop looking. And I've said this on here so many

01:53:06.180 --> 01:53:08.920
times. Stop looking at government buildings and

01:53:08.920 --> 01:53:12.500
fire chiefs and all these people that put themselves

01:53:12.500 --> 01:53:16.319
on a pedestal. We didn't put them there. To supposedly

01:53:16.319 --> 01:53:18.699
solve your problems. Literally look in the mirror

01:53:18.699 --> 01:53:20.920
and then look around your own home. That's where

01:53:20.920 --> 01:53:24.699
you can really make a difference. Yeah. A hundred

01:53:24.699 --> 01:53:27.220
percent, James. Uh, yeah, you, you're definitely

01:53:27.220 --> 01:53:30.659
a man of wisdom and, and experienced a lot. So,

01:53:30.659 --> 01:53:34.439
um, I really appreciate this experience with

01:53:34.439 --> 01:53:38.600
you and, um, and kind of taking me through this

01:53:38.600 --> 01:53:41.619
journey and, and learning more about myself too,

01:53:41.739 --> 01:53:46.159
as I, as I was digging deep into some of those,

01:53:46.180 --> 01:53:49.600
um, those things in my life. So, um, you know,

01:53:49.640 --> 01:53:52.659
I really appreciate what, what you're doing here.

01:53:53.399 --> 01:53:56.220
and connecting uh back with ourselves that's

01:53:56.220 --> 01:53:58.859
super important so it was cathartic and thank

01:53:58.859 --> 01:54:01.300
you yeah well thank you for people listening

01:54:01.300 --> 01:54:04.720
though where can they find firefly vr and then

01:54:04.720 --> 01:54:06.659
if they want to reach out to you personally where

01:54:06.659 --> 01:54:11.859
the best place yeah no great um yeah so um love

01:54:11.859 --> 01:54:15.600
to connect with uh more of you guys out there

01:54:15.600 --> 01:54:20.509
in the first responder veteran space um fireflyvr

01:54:20.509 --> 01:54:27.189
.com or fireflyimmersive .com and um we we've

01:54:27.189 --> 01:54:29.529
kind of rebranded from firefly vr to firefly

01:54:29.529 --> 01:54:32.529
immersive but either way you will find us both

01:54:32.529 --> 01:54:36.109
will work um and and love to connect and then

01:54:36.109 --> 01:54:40.989
as far as myself um i have my own uh website

01:54:40.989 --> 01:54:46.600
uh doors to delic minds .com that's my um uh

01:54:46.600 --> 01:54:51.000
psychedelic integration coaching uh site and

01:54:51.000 --> 01:54:55.220
connect with me there i'd love to help give education

01:54:55.220 --> 01:54:59.960
whatever it is uh i'm here open uh anytime i

01:54:59.960 --> 01:55:04.380
work with a multitude of clients from first runners

01:55:04.380 --> 01:55:08.899
to veterans to ceos moms dads you know everyone

01:55:08.899 --> 01:55:14.050
so um so yeah that's the basic you know, two,

01:55:14.170 --> 01:55:16.930
two places to connect with, uh, me and, and,

01:55:16.930 --> 01:55:19.930
um, Firefly and, and again, super appreciative

01:55:19.930 --> 01:55:23.449
of what you're doing here and, and, and talking

01:55:23.449 --> 01:55:26.550
more and, uh, gonna definitely send more people,

01:55:26.590 --> 01:55:33.310
uh, to, to your, um, site and me and I, there's

01:55:33.310 --> 01:55:35.189
a couple other people I'll recommend to offline

01:55:35.189 --> 01:55:35.930
to you as well.