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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you
think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome
to the Bionish Shield podcast. As always, my
name is James Gearing, and this week it is my
absolute honor to welcome on the show Naval Special
Warfare veteran and the man behind Carcajou Resilience
Group, Justin Sheehan. Now, in this conversation,
we discuss a host of topics, from entering the
Navy as a corpsman, his journey into the SEAL
teams, joining SEAL Team 6, kindness and compassion
on the battlefield, tactical medicine, CrossFit,
Jiu -Jitsu, training law enforcement, and so
much more. Now, before we get to this incredible
conversation, as I say every week, please just
take a moment. Go to whichever app you listen
to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback,
and leave a rating. Every single five -star rating
truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making
it easier for others to find. And this is a free
library of over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I
ask in return is that you help share these incredible
men and women's stories so I can get them to
every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce
to you Justin Sheehan. Enjoy. Well, Justin, I
want to start by saying two things. Firstly,
thank you to our mutual friend Kagan Gill for
making this introduction. And secondly, to welcome
you onto the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Thank you. Appreciate that. Appreciate both Kagan
connecting us and you having me on. So I know
you are deep in the world of jiu -jitsu. I know
that's what brought you and Kagan together. So
talk to me about that kind of mutual meeting.
Yeah, a friend of Kagan's, Matt, and his wife,
Stephanie, and their kids, they were coming to
our Jiu -Jitsu Academy in Traverse City to train.
And they spent half their year up in Traverse
City, Michigan, and the other half out in Hawaii.
And their kid's a big competitor, and my children
compete as well. And they asked about, you know,
bringing their kids into the club while they're
here for the summers. And as soon as they came
in, you know, they fell in love with the academy.
And then his friend, Matt, said, you've got to
meet. My buddy Kagan. And I think I told you
before, before I even met him, I was going to
meet him the next day. I was actually flying
in. I was down in Georgia working and I flew
back up and that night sitting in the hotel room,
he sends me, you know, a podcast and an article
and all this different stuff about Kagan. And
I thought his story was obviously incredible.
It's miraculous that he's alive. He's a testament
to resilience, which is the. I think that I push
the most just in training is being resilient.
I feel like it's what has enabled me to be successful,
not always being the best, right? You're not
always the fastest or the strongest or the smartest,
but boy, you know, if you can persevere and be
there at the end, you find that you're at the
top or close to it. So Kagan was a testament
to that, his story. And oddly enough, I remembered
his jet. crashing because i was in virginia beach
at the same time and i lived maybe 10 12 miles
from nas oceana where his squadron his air squadron
was out of so i remembered that crash um but
i didn't know him the guy across the street from
me he was a top gun pilot and kagan actually
knows him and we talked about it you know a decade
later of course but yeah it's funny how you have
these little touch points and It always goes
back to how small the world really is, right?
Like you're never that far apart from people,
you know? Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's start
at the very beginning of your journey. I mean,
you have a fascinating story yourself. So tell
me where you were born and tell me a little bit
about your family dynamic, what your parents
did, how many siblings. Yeah, so I was born.
Up in Prescott, Michigan. That's where we, you
know, I was born there, lived there my whole
life until I left for the service. I had one
brother. He's five years younger than me. He
actually served in the Navy as well. But, you
know, growing up, we lived in a farming community.
It was a very small area. Graduated with 60 plus
people in my class in 2003. But I knew everybody.
I knew everybody's little brothers, sisters.
I knew their... grandparents you it's a community
where you know there's no there's no secrets
um it's that it's that tight knit um and i just
grew up around hard work you know i remember
when i left for the service that was what i i
told myself i that that was what was going to
get me through this program that was seemingly
impossible was just that i would was willing
to outwork everybody else um so that was the
kind of lifestyle i had you know we we had fun
Like we hunted, we fished, we spent time in the
outdoors, snowmobiling and water skiing as a
kid. You know, we definitely enjoyed life, but
not until the work was done. So that was instilled
very early on in me. And I spent a lot of time
around older people because I was on the farm
all the time. So it was always I felt like I
was always around elderly. Right. That had very
traditional values. And and again, we're just.
They worked hard to cut from a different cloth.
And I think that helped me mature early, at least
emotionally and mentally being around those types
of folks. So I loved it. You know, when I left
home, I didn't leave. I wasn't one of those guys
that left home and I was like, I'm never coming
back. You know, I really enjoyed my childhood.
I enjoyed the hard work. I really liked that
lifestyle. That all said, I did have an uncle
that was an Army Ranger, and I heard about that
my whole life. Uncle Jay's doing this and doing
that, and it was during Desert Storm, so he was
involved in that. I was very aware of the military
and these different programs that existed. So
for a very long time, I wanted to be a Marine
sniper. That's what I wanted to be. I wanted
to do it. do long range shooting. I wanted to
be in the Marine Corps. I thought they were the
toughest guys out there. And as I got closer
and closer to that, 9 -11 occurred. So I was
a junior in high school when 9 -11 happened.
And that was that, that was that push that really
just sealed it for me. I said, well, there's
no question what I'm doing with my life after
this, after school. I ended up, I did go to college
for a little bit in between high school and the
Navy, but Really, I was there. I mean, I got
really good grades, but I was there using the
pool, using the weight room. You know, I was
kind of preparing myself to go into this program.
Right. And I Marine Corps started to fade as
I met more people. I was doing construction while
I was in college. And one of the guys on the
crew, he was a former recon Marine and we would
lift weights together and stuff and hang out.
i told him you know i want to be a marine i want
to be a sniper i want to i want to go recon this
and that heartbreak ridge was you know something
that was on repeat at the house you know watching
clint eastwood and um that's what i wanted and
he was just like i think that's a horrible idea
what and he's like yeah because i don't he goes
just knowing you i don't think that's your that's
a fit for you um he said you know they're It's
very square. There's very strict guidelines.
It's haircut and shave. It's yes, sir, no, sir.
You know, falling in ranks. He said, you should
look into being a SEAL. Well, I didn't even know
what a SEAL was at that point. Like, we didn't
have the popularity, you know, the notoriety
that we have now. Now, you hear about it whether
you want to or not. Well, when I was a kid, there
was just books available. But I respected this
guy. His name was Bob Ruth and I respected him
and I said, all right, I'll dig into it. And
I did. And then I fell in love, right? Like you
start reading, you know, these books from the
Vietnam era and these guys and even, you know,
Dick Marcinko is an embellisher, but he could
captivate an audience, you know what I mean?
And that became my new goal was getting into
the SEAL teams. So I went through a few semesters
of college. I enlisted. I just showed up at the
recruiting office one day. I was working and
going to college. I had my barn clothes on. I
was covered in cow shit. I came in there and
I was like, hey, I want to be a Navy SEAL. I'm
not big. I'm 5 '7". I was 150 pounds. The recruiter
just basically told me that I'd never make it.
Even if I could make it, I probably wouldn't
get a high enough ASVAB score to qualify. It
was just like, hey, here are all the reasons
why you won't make it. And if you're really interested
in going in the military, you should do this.
And I was just like, no, this is what I want
to do. So jumped through all the hoops and he
realized quickly that I wasn't messing around,
that I really wanted this and that I was going
to be a decent performer. So I got my contract
to go into the Navy. I was a hospital corpsman.
You had to pick a job at that time. You couldn't
just go in and be a SEAL. Now you can. But back
then you had to pick a different rate. I picked
hospital corpsman because I knew that if I washed
out of buds, I could go fight with the Marines.
So I was always thinking like, hey, you know,
if this fails, I need to still somehow ensure
that I get to where I want to be, which is on
the front line, you know, serving my country.
So I did that. I went in. I went to core school.
I screened while I was there and passed all the
screenings to get into BUDS, and I just waited
for my orders. And then eventually orders popped,
and I went out to California, got out there,
and met all these new obstacles and much different
way of life. Growing up in northern Michigan
in this farming community, and now I'm on the
ocean. Never stepped foot in the ocean. That
was the first time. right like i bet in the great
lakes which i always told people oh it's just
like the great lakes well it's really not you
don't have rip currents and 12 -foot waves uh
sharks yeah but yeah i i um i did well i got
i got through buds and went to sqt and we do
our dream sheet you put in where you want to
be where you want to go most guys it doesn't
matter what you put in it's the needs of the
navy even at even at that tier it still needs
the navy so you think that you're getting the
pick but you really aren't but i did get the
team that i wanted i put all east coast teams
i took put two four and eight down and i got
team two um so that was great i did that so i
could be closer to home and uh things that i
knew a little bit better you know vice the ocean
and the beach uh east coast is Got some green.
And even though we were on the ocean, it felt
more like home. And I missed that. So I went
to SEAL Team 2. I did two deployments there.
And then I screened for Development Group and
got picked up. And I went through Green Team
in 2013. And I did my last four years over at
Development Group. So it was a great ride. After
that, I came home and went back to college, finished
that out, saw that through. And then I've done
a little bit of everything since then. I have
an LLC and worked in different industries and
just enjoying life. Well, I'm going to take you
all the way back to the beginning of your story.
So firstly, what about profession as far as your
parents? Were they actually both involved in
the farm itself? Yeah, they were. My dad actually,
the year I was born, he joined a mining company.
So he started mining. We have this gypsum rock
up here that's used in wallboard. You probably
from firefighting have heard gypsum and whatnot.
It's flame retardant and all that jazz. But they
would bring freighters in up the Great Lakes
and they would load these freighters with gypsum
rock and then they'd go up into Canada and whatnot.
And it was a really big industry back then by
freighter. It has transitioned over to truck
and train now, mostly. my dad took that job when
i was the year same year i was born so he's been
there ever since so he's been there 40 years
now but my mom continued to farm and they were
farmers before that my mom grew up on a family
farm when she was young and they moved up to
you know where i was born and she met my dad
and she continued to farm while i was a kid and
uh you know we it was unique in the fact that
the folks that i considered family they weren't
really family the farm that my mom worked on
it was the erickson family farm and they told
my mom and dad before i was even born hey when
you have kids we would like these kids to call
us grandma and grandpa and we want to be we want
to be there you know for each other like we feel
that way about you guys so i grew up on this
farm this family farm that is not really family
it's just by kind of an adoptive measure, but,
um, I, I love there, you know, that, that community
and those people, they, they really taught me
a lot. They were anytime I, I messed up, I asked
myself what they would think about it, how they
would feel, you know, it provided those, that
sounding board that I needed. So yeah, my mom
continued to farm and my dad continued to pitch
in here and there and work on farms and stuff.
They, they love it. They love farming and they
love. being outdoors and just everything that
comes along with it. But yeah, they, they did
it pretty much their entire lives. And then my
mom ended up working at the school system as
a cook later on in life, but they still have
a little, you know, little tiny farm at the house
that they do stuff and keep their garden going
and pumpkins. And they've had beef cattle over
the years and a pig that they raised for slaughter
and stuff like that. So yeah, they were, they
were definitely farmers and miners, I would say
is the. the core skill set that they had. I grew
up on a farm as well, but mine kind of butted
up against where the rest of the town was. So
we weren't like really out in the middle of nowhere.
And my dad was a veterinary surgeon. So we had
a small animal practice in town and then he was
an equine specialist. So we had horses on the
farm and sheep and ducks and geese and all the
things. And it's interesting looking back how
that served me well. in the fire service, whether
it was just dealing with misery and the English
winners, you know, when you were either working,
you know, bailing or I guess wouldn't be bailing
in them, but the summers of bailing and the winters
and the spring, you know, the cold with the lambing
and all these things, you know, that kind of
most kids didn't get to experience good or bad.
And then, you know, the communal dining table,
like I said, our farmhouse would have everyone
from extended royal family to gypsies and some
homeless people came through. My parents helped
out when they kind of wanted up on on the drive.
And so it really was an eclectic group of men
and women. And there was a lot of people that
we called auntie or uncle that, again, weren't
actually blood relatives. So. I can see how that
factored into areas that I seem to do well in
the fire service later. When you reflect back
now on that upbringing, how did elements of that
serve you well when you started entering the
teams? Yeah, well, you know, you're bringing
up old memories, right, of stuff, right? But,
you know, we had milk cows. Grandma and grandpa
had milk cows until I was probably eight or nine
years old. Well, naturally, I was milking cows.
during high school because you milk cows twice
a day well if we milk cows at three four o 'clock
in the morning then they need milk again three
four o 'clock in the afternoon right so and i
hated milking cows and i remembered that i you
know i i hated getting kicked by them and i grew
up i grew up around people that didn't believe
in and rightfully so they didn't believe in abusing
the animal or hitting the animal back right like
you didn't you it didn't matter how hard the
cow kicked you you held your composure Right.
And you put the milker on whether it kicked it
off 10 times. Right. You just went back and put
it on 11th time. But I remember being in the
service thinking, oh, I'll never have to milk
a cow again. Right. And I haven't had a cow since
then. And I don't I really don't miss it. It's
one of the things. But farm life in general.
Right. Just teaches you, you know, the hottest
I've ever been is in a hay mouth. Right. Bales
coming off the elevator. Wet hay. that was probably
probably didn't dry long enough right it was
heavy and wet and they're coming off that elevator
faster than you can catch them and you're stacking
them over your head you're throwing those hay
bales and it reminds me of like a wrestling room
when you leave practice and you've lost four
or five pounds of sweat like that's what being
in the haymow is right is is like and and i did
love that part of the job right because i like
that hard work i like leaving there feeling just
absolutely spent And when I got to Bud's, I compared
a lot of things to that. Later in life, I compared
CrossFit to that. I hated CrossFit for a long
time. And then I realized this is just like how
I grew up, like carrying milk buckets, carrying
hay bales, right? Like grinding it out. A farm
never sleeps. So when I got to Bud's and you're
up all the time and you're constantly working
and it's one evolution to the next and they don't
always make sense why you're doing this when
you just finished that. for me it was it was
an easy transition i think because farms don't
sleep right and even though you know i wasn't
the one running the farm and i had the luxury
of you know going on vacations and stuff like
that it wasn't my farm um i understood all that
i understood what goes into uh making a farm
operate and work and how it had you know what
needs to be done for it to be successful i think
that I think that really helped me later on in
my career. Right. And then I noticed along the
way there would always be some little problem
and somebody be like, well, how can we get this
done? And I was I they thought I was really creative.
I wasn't. We just had limited resources growing
up and had to make do with what you had. So I
would be like, oh, we could just back that side
by side up to here. We could use that plank,
you know, to get this up there in the bed. And
people are like, wow, how do you think about
it? I'm like. We have to solve a hundred problems
like this a day on a, you know, back home on
a farm. Especially that era where technology
hadn't really taken off yet in that kind of thing.
So, yeah. Absolutely. I heard you on a podcast.
I wish I could remember what it was called, but
it was one you did very recently, I think. And
you talked about that sense of patriotism that
you see in small town America. And this is an
observation I've made. You know, we use the word
it takes a village to raise a child. And I think
that's the kind of disconnect that we've had
as suburbia and the urban sprawl has just amassed
that we've lost that kind of tribal community.
When you reflect back now, what is it about growing
up in a place, you know, in an era where you
didn't have, you know, all this technology that
you were surrounded by American farmland and,
you know, wildlife and community? And how that
factors into patriotism, because this is what
I talk about a lot. That is America. The people
that we spoke about before we hit record, you
know, all these beautiful ethnicities that we
have all over this country. That is also America.
The politics, the nastiness, that's not America.
That's just people yapping. So what is it about
your upbringing, you know, and towns that are
similar all over the country that forges such
patriotism rather than nationalism? Yeah. Well,
I think I think when we think in relation to
like a tribe, I think when a tribe grows beyond
a certain number, it's no longer a tribe. Right.
It's just it becomes a demographic. It becomes
a population. Right. A population study by something
feeling tribal and feeling like a community.
And I know growing up, I didn't I didn't feel
any. any lack of patriotism from anybody where
I come from. They, and I think that part of that
was because, you know, when somebody, when you
lose somebody, like when the Iraq war kicked
off and we were seeing body counts on the TV,
it meant more when you knew that Bill, Billy
Johnson is one of those guys that's over there
right now, right? Like everybody knows who Billy
is. I told you that in the beginning, like I
knew everybody's. you know, all their siblings.
I knew their parents. I knew, you know, I could
tell you, we can, I can drive through Prescott
and Whittemore and Hale and these little towns
around where I grew up. And even today, I can
tell you who lived there for the last 50, 60
years. You know what I mean? Because when I was
a little kid, my mom and dad and my grandparents
told me, oh, that was, you know, back when I
was growing up and you hear those stories. So
people, you have more touch points with these
people. And I think when you're in these large
communities. these big suburban communities you
just you you become more independent more isolated
even though you're around more people you become
more isolated and insulated from things and you
just know the kid down the hall in the apartment
is gone right and then somebody's like oh yeah
he went into the military or oh he he became
this and you're like oh that's cool but you don't
really know them Right. But these communities,
you know, these you know, these kids. And I think
that that that keeps that patriotism there. And
and they and I think that folks coming back and
just speaking to that is important, too. And
how important it is, because you can get lost
as a kid and not realize how special it is, for
sure. But, yeah, I think just the size, the size
and scalability of a community. Right. Like it's
too big and it outgrows. it outgrows its values
in a way and that's where we have to be careful
as a country outgrowing our values right um and
that's a probably a problem i i know it's a problem
i can't solve but um i think that's where we
need to get back to right not outgrowing our
values as a country what we stand for not violating
those things um it's hard with technology right
like you and i didn't have cell phones as kids.
And it was a blessing. I got my first cell phone
when I was in the Navy at 21 years old. And I'm
so grateful that was the first phone I had. We
had dial -up internet when I was, I think when
I turned 17, we got dial -up internet. And it
was pretty much useless out in the middle of
nowhere. So I didn't spend any time on the computer.
And it didn't hinder me down the road. I feel
like we're part of that last generation, that
last group, that subset of the population. didn't
grow up with all these distractions and all this
propaganda, hate, you know, just everything that
comes with, with that, with technology. I'm jumping
ahead. Cause we haven't even gone into your military
career yet, but just from a kind of philosophical
lens for a moment, when you look at our medical
system or disease care system, we've got a description.
With it being a profit -based system, you have
to wonder where are the checks and balances as
far as forging health in this country. If people
are making a lot of money from ill health, then
how do we really push health? Because there's
no money in healthy people. Someone pointed out
recently there is money in preventative care
and CrossFit and all these other things. But
from a drug company point of view, there's no
money in healthy people or dead people. But in
the middle... There's a lot of money. Now, take
that same philosophy and put it in war. You know,
there are times in our history where obviously,
hands down, we had to go and fight. I think World
War Two is always a good example of that. But
there are other times where, you know, when people
reflect after, for example, 20 years, there's
some questions of, you know, why were we there
and were the things that we were told correct?
And so what do we learn from that? And so my
question is, where? Where are the checks and
balances when we have all these corporations
that make a huge amount of money when our young
men and women are out there fighting to stop
wars unless absolutely necessary? Yeah, well,
the health care piece is funny. We talked about
that, too, because I was a medic and I became
a combat medic in the SEAL teams. That was one
of my collateral duties. When I got out of the
Navy, I thought, naturally, I should go back
into medicine. so i did i finished my degree
in allied health i got my bachelor's at gvsu
and then i applied for medical school and you
know you sign a lot of statements saying you're
not going to talk about the interview process
and and you know what it takes to get accepted
but all i'll say is that interview process was
about politics right it was not about it was
not about um Differential diagnosis. It had nothing
to do with mental health. The issues that they
wanted to talk about in that interview process
were, just like you said, making a profit, turning
a profit. It was about racial divides in the
country. It was about agendas and narratives,
popular agendas and narratives that are being
debated and discussed. It just wasn't about health
care. And I thought that's what it was going
to be about, because in the military, if you're
a combat medic, there's no incentive to save
your teammates life other than saving your teammates
life. You don't get a bonus for it. You don't
you know, you don't you don't prescribe medications
and then get a kickback at the end of the year.
Right. You you do these things because it's your
teammate and that's what you're that's your duty
to your teammates. Right. And then if you extrapolate
that out to the. So the military and just big
military and entering new conflicts and wars.
Yeah, I think they I think they use the military
machine to generate money. I think they we saw
that right with the Industrial Revolution. We
saw how, you know, we upped production of machinery,
you know, weapons, vehicles, clothing industry,
like everything. benefits from money -wise in
a war. Then you ask yourself, well, what are
we doing over there then? Is that what we're
doing? We're stimulating an economy? You don't
ask those questions after something like 9 -11.
I didn't. I know that I didn't. How do I sleep
at night? I say, well, there's a lot of bad people
in the world. Ridding the world of bad people
is never a bad thing. If they're causing harm,
I mean, if you go to the Middle East, it's no
secret that they behead women and children overseas
and they don't want them educated. We work very
hard for women's rights here in America. I do
think there's a little bit of world policing
that has to happen on our, that falls on our
shoulders, right? As a superpower with values
that we don't outgrow, right? But yeah, to what
degree we involve ourselves, that's a really
tricky question. And you start to wonder whose
pockets are being lined with certain conflicts,
you know? Yeah, I think this is just, you know,
having heard, I mean, I've had 1100 plus conversations
now, a lot of whom were veterans. And, you know,
there's I always ask this question, I'll ask
you in a second, you know, about the kindness
and compassion that you see as well when you're
in conflict. So there's so much good that are
done by the men and women on the floor at that
point. But, you know, there's also this kind
of guilt and shame and all these, you know, the.
You know, the withdrawal, for example, all the
allies that were left behind, you know, and their
families were slaughtered. And so the decisions
of some of these people to send our, you know,
boys and girls, not their boys and girls, our
boys and girls overseas to fight. It should happen
if it's absolutely needed. But I mean, I think
now I hope there's an awakening happening nationally
where. Again, as we talked before we hit record,
that kind of middle ground where people go, yeah,
it's not black and white. It's not we'll never,
ever go to war. But at the same time, where is
that line? Where is that line for diplomacy?
And where is that line where we send we go all
in with our military? You're asking me where
I think that line is? No, no, no, no. It was
more metaphorical. Yeah. I need latitude. Lines
of latitude, please. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,
it's very tough. I think you have to weigh the
problems, right? Like, I guess that's what I
do. You weigh your own problems in your own household.
You know, I have to, okay, I have to. This this
week, I have to get A, B and C accomplished.
You know, I prioritize those things. And then
I'm also getting static from over here where
this person is asking me for that. And you have
to say no to somebody. You have to because you
don't have enough time and resources for everybody
and everything. Right. And I feel like there
are probably. There's probably more recently
been a lot of times where we have pretty significant
problems internal to the United States. Homeless,
crime. We touched on it in our health care system.
We've got so many things that need revamped.
And I think that's where people also get upset
is that they know that we have these things that
need to be overhauled and fixed and solved here
inside of the United States. And then we're overseas.
putting ourselves, sticking our noses in other
places. And it's not all bad. I mean, a lot of
the things that we're doing outside of the United
States, out of our country lines is good. But
the question is, you know, how do we solve things
here when we're putting so many resources towards
this? Why are we doing that? And those questions
come up and we just haven't been getting good
answers as to why we're doing that, right? i
don't think anybody would disagree that bin laden
needed to go away right like nobody's gonna argue
that and they they shouldn't and uh and that
goes with uh you know saddam you know letting
that regime go there was no harm there right
like that was a a very violent very sadistical
regime but you start looking at the length the
duration of time that we spend there and the
the turnovers and you know giving the the local
populace the ability the capabilities to defend
themselves and yeah that's where it gets convoluted
right and then I think people start making some
money and then they start maybe we linger maybe
we do this and maybe we maybe maybe it's strategic
posturing for other things that down the road
would make make money it's just it's yeah it's
really It's beyond my wherewithal, to be honest
with you. There seems to be a common denominator
that when we do spend too much time in a country,
you have these people that were so pleased to
see you year one and two, that then there's that
feeling of an occupation and things seem to shift
then. I've heard a lot of your community, Green
Berets and some other people talking about, especially
specifically to Afghanistan. And this is, you
know, completely unrelated. They're not talking
to each other, but there's a feeling that if
the special operations, special forces communities
had gone in, been able to enact, you know, removing
certain targets, like you said, shutting down
training camps and then coming out again, that
that would have been a leaner, more efficient
way of some of these conflicts being, you know,
so involved in that particular community. What
is your perspective of, you know, empowering
teams like yours to go in? more surgically rather
than putting big army in over and over again.
Yeah. Well, I, I agree with that. And I, I think
that that's one, those are the guys that actually,
they volunteer for those programs, right? Like
special operations programs are, are volunteer
programs. So when you go in and you become a
68 whiskey, a medic in the army, right? You know
what your left and right flanks are. in black
and white but just like me i went in and i became
a corpsman then i said i want to try out to be
a seal right and you take on a little bit more
autonomy a little bit more responsibility you
get to kind of you get to make make what you
want of your career and those guys they enlisted
especially during a time of war, to go to war
and to fight those wars and be on the front line.
And this probably dives into our mental health
where we're putting a lot of people on the front
line that didn't want to be on the front line.
They wanted to serve their country, but they
weren't necessarily prepared or equipped to be
on the front line. So I think one, special operations
is a better tool for that type of thing. Two,
the guys that are in special operations, that's
actually the role they want, right? So you clean
up. some of the mental health issues in our us
military by putting the people in roles that
in places they belong right it's uh it's uh like
uh driving the driving the school bus you know
what i mean like you put kids in the right seats
in the school bus right you don't put bad kids
in the back of the bus where there's no oversight.
You know what I mean? You don't put one kid that
gets picked on all the time. You don't put him
with the bully. You know, you put kids in the
right seat in the bus so that there's some cohesion
and you can get places efficiently and effectively,
right, and be productive. The military needs
to be run similarly. We need to put the right
people in the right roles. And then that goes
to how are special operations being utilized?
I was packing a war bag in a suit on deployments
because I didn't know if I was going to go to
an embassy or if I was going to be going on target.
Now, luckily, I wasn't going to an embassy, but
we had to prepare for that, right? Because now
the world wants, especially if you're a SEAL
Team 6 operator, they want you in every corner
of the world. They want a Tier 1 operator. in
every theater every corner of the world in every
every room right so they can they can say okay
we have a guy to do that right and you're not
being properly employed you know we should be
on the front line doing you know being um you
know targeting objectives right we should be
towing the mark and uh so i think that's a little
bit of it is that we're over employed because
we're over employed over utilized in roles that
we don't even belong in for one. I shouldn't
be in an embassy. Anybody like me necessarily
at that pay grade talking about strategy and
tactics and politics, right? I mean, I should
be out there on the ground. So they're using
some of their resources inappropriately, in my
opinion. I touched on the question before, but
I'll kind of circle around to it now. You know,
you talked about some of the horrors that obviously
are happening in certain areas. One area I think
also gets very little. airtime when it comes
to our very kind of left or right leaning media
is kindness. And I hear, I've heard so many stories
of kindness and compassion, whether it's by the
indigenous people themselves towards their own
people or our soldiers, or whether it's, you
know, our people towards them. When you reflect
back now in your entire career, what are moments
of kindness and compassion that really stand
out? Yeah, I think for me, you know, we ran a
sick call medic in Afghanistan. So we didn't
have to run a sick call medic, but we did. And
those were, at least in my opinion, those were
moments of compassion, right? Like we were there
to create white space, push Taliban out of Taliban
held areas. And you could use a sick call clinic
for many, many ways, many different things, right?
Like you could get information from folks. You
could run, have hours of operation just to have
people come in and tell you what's going on in
the village or in the valley, right? You know,
the people over there, they're especially the
kids, they're they're under they're undertreated.
Right. A lot of them have just they're a mess
health care wise. So us running a sick call clinic
and having them come in and then you realizing
that like you're doing a different job. You're
not the soldier. You're treating somebody. I
saw that a lot just across the entire theater,
not just our clinic. Our tent, it wasn't a clinic,
it was a tent for all purposes, right? A little
Indiana Jones tent. But I think across the theaters,
you see that, right? You see that we are over
there doing good. That's back to that doing good,
right? Is there any harm in ridding the world
of bad guys? No. Is there any harm in providing
medical aid to underserved and underprivileged?
No. so those are the things that we're doing
as a as the us military and the government that's
the good that we're doing over there that doesn't
get talked about instead we we know what gets
highlighted right the stuff that gets more publicity
i mean i saw the boxes and boxes of um of hats
and gloves and clothes for the kids my my wife
when i was in afghanistan she sent my ex -wife
now but my wife then she had she sent a whole
tote full of stuff right and Now, they were all
kids' clothes, and I'll admit, the next day,
I saw adults wearing kids' clothes, right? Because
that's how a lot of the men in that theater treat,
you know, the women and the children, again,
right? But we definitely put more things into
the communities there, right, helping folks out.
So those were probably the most significant acts
of compassion. other things were just stuff that
wouldn't be more obvious like um we had a we
had uh this group they were counter mine reconnaissance
group and they would basically go with us out
on patrol and sweep for for landmines and they
would reduce them get rid of ieds and stuff and
they saved countless lives not just afghani but
um americans and you know those were i saw those
guys go in front of us and take unnecessary risk
because they felt like we were there helping
them. So you get back to that, like, well, what
are we there for? Well, they know what we're
there for because they're willing to die for
us. They're out in front sweeping for mines because
they know what the U .S. military presence is
doing for their communities, right? So that was
some of the more compassionate examples, I guess,
overseas that I witnessed. Beautiful. Yeah, you
hear over and over again that shared humanity,
you know, when they're sitting down and whatever
nation and they're inviting the soldiers in for
food and tea. And it's just, you know, they watch
the kids playing football and dad's fixing the
car. And then there's this kind of like, oh,
this could be, you know, back home. This could
be, you know, Florida or, you know, wherever.
Flipping it around on the other side for a moment,
because you. We're targeting specific people
and obviously getting a lot of intelligence as
far as background. So you could plan removing
the individual. Did you over this pretty, you
know, story career that you have see any common
denominators as to how these people from different
backgrounds became the same kind of, you know,
evil, evil human being? Yeah, I think a lot of
it is just fear mongering. I think that they
part of it is that. it's propaganda it's what
they're it's blind faith right not being allowed
to question anything and then the other piece
is just that they're not as they're not as i
don't even want to i don't want to say civilized
but they're not as advanced as advanced as us
like i remember landing in the valley in afghanistan
and they had an oxen out there with a with a
plow hook to it they're breaking ground with
animals and i was like holy cow like i wrote
back home and i said you got to tell grandpa
that they're breaking ground with animals in
old old plows hooked these animals out here it
blew my mind that that's where they were at because
i grew up farming right i mean we're talking
about you know i saw milk parlors where you know
30 cattle come in at a time you got 15 on both
sides and your automatic takeoffs on milkers
and and john deere equipment that costs you know
half a million dollars You know, we have such
a leg up in terms of just like our technology
and money and access to things that they don't
have there. So that limits them, their ideology
limits them, and then just their culture in general,
right? When you're that far behind, I think it
takes a long time to break those norms, right?
Absolutely. You just made me think of something
else as well. I'll compare it to what was the
I forget the documentary is one of the I think
it was a John Gotti case. And you saw how the
different kind of letter agencies and the local
law enforcement in New York. There was a lot
of kind of issues with ego and these organizations
weren't communicating with each other and it
was at the detriment. It took longer and longer
and longer to catch him. And then when you look
at some of the documentaries on Bin Laden and
9 -11 and some of these other areas, there are
also elements of that. So from a leadership point
of view, talk to me about humility and communication
because you have such a kind of tip of the spear
lens on this particular conversation. Yeah, well,
I think this is something that we can do better.
I think we are doing better now than we were
10 years ago. And 10 years ago, we were probably
better than we were 20 years ago. But it's not
a secret that we don't play well with others.
And that is within our own organization, right?
So, you know, there's always Army -Navy feuds.
There's always agency versus military feuds,
right? they're like the first thing you get briefed
on when you come into country right it's like
hey this guy doesn't play well with others hey
this guy's an and he he's not going to work with
you or blah blah blah or that agency this this
unit um we're getting better at that because
there's there's more scrutiny right and i think
that goes with technology there's there's more
eyes on on us now so when something falls apart
we're starting to do a better job of asking the
why. Why did that fall apart? And you're not
going to avoid the question because we had ISR
up, right? Or we had people internal that talked
about, are talking about it, right? So we're
doing a better job debriefing and saying, well,
we could have communicated with State Department
a little bit better. We could have done this.
We could have done that. And that slowly turns
into better communication. Even if it is for
nothing other than to avoid more conflict. Right.
And getting getting your pee pee slapped in a
sense. Right. Like we we you don't want to be
over over critiqued all the time. Right. Well,
how do we mitigate that? OK, well, we communicate
better and we don't get our pee pee slapped over
everything. You know, maybe we share with this
person. But and I saw that I saw where people.
didn't want to talk with us didn't want to give
us information right and and i saw it on our
side don't tell them anything you know we we
do it um i think yeah i think we do it even here
stateside in civilian sectors right i see it
with i see it with martial arts academies no
no don't tell them what we do over here you know
what i mean like we're a comp this put this place
is a comp team and we do different stuff blah
blah blah don't tell our secrets oh come on internet
internet's already pulled them all you know but
yeah so i think we're doing better i think the
army and then in the navy especially at the tier
one level i think they're doing a really good
job communicating with each other um i think
the bin laden raid was an example of that too
i think there was good communication there um
we obviously did a better job communicating because
we finally got him right and sometimes that means
lack of communication So there was a little bit
of that too. There was over -communicating going
on for a while, which ends up being lies and
leaks and everything else. I've seen where ego
has been hugely detrimental in my, you know.
professions, plurals, the first responder profession.
So whether it's personally seeing city and county
fire departments, not wanting to even work with
each other, arguing over whose jurisdiction it
is, you know, all these kinds of things to then
a more tragic example, obviously the egos that,
you know, must've been in the leadership with
the Evaldi disaster massacre. Um, and so in a,
in professions where lives truly at stake, you
know, humility is so important, but yet. This
seems to be quite a common thing. I mean, a lot
of places do have issues with arrogance, you
know, all the way through the ladder. But I mean,
the most dangerous places at the top, of course.
How do we forge more humility so that we put
the right people in these leadership positions,
whether it's police, fire, EMS or the military?
Yeah, I think I know for me, it was role models,
right? Like we need better role models. In the
world, that's just that's all there is to it.
I think we're short on them right now, like really
short on good role models. And when I was a kid,
I feel like there was a ton of them. I mean,
I had role models at home. I had role models
in this extended family that I looked up to.
I, you know, in pop culture, I had role models.
You know, I had there were kids at school that
I looked up to that were older than me that had
achieved things and just to me represented what
I wanted to be. Right. And I think now we're
I think we're on a world stage just highlighting
the wrong people. And that's resulting in. So
the people that we're highlighting are influencing
all the incoming human beings. Right. All the
all the young kids that are that are developing
and they're they're building their idea of what.
A good person looks like it's, it's so skewed.
It's so crazy. And it's unrealistic. It's, it's
an influencer with, you know, a different filter
on every time you see a picture of them or they're,
they're, you know, they're saying things to just
get likes and subscribes and all that. They're,
they're not authentic. We don't have any authentic
people right now. Right. And I, and I think the
authentic people we have are looked at as a little
extremist, right? Because they're. They're so
opinionated. They're so strongly opinionated
that you're like, geez, that's an extremist.
I don't want to be like that either, right? Because
they get so much scrutiny from people. But I
think that's how we fix that is through role
models. We need to start highlighting as a country
and as just the world in general, we need to
start highlighting the right people. We need
to start saying, hey, this person corrected these
issues. Let's commend them for that. right this
is what the influencer thing is a big piece of
it i think that the the access you know to social
media that kids have today and you know i just
don't think there's a lot of child parental parameters
on on social media and the internet for kids
and they they don't even know what they should
be looking for so they get overwhelmed with the
wrong thing and it's so hard to pick out the
you know the john wayne right like it's it's
hard for kids to see that figure now because
it's lost in all of this other trash really yeah
i think it's almost like the opposite they see
the john wayne because that's your two -dimensional
version of masculinity or whatever but then they're
not able to see past that and be like wait a
second that particular guy never even served
that's not actually a soldier yeah i think it's
the same you know with the the presidential seat
and i'm talking like a decade plus couple of
decades We used to, you know, one of the things
that was said is one day you could even be president
of the United States. You could even be the prime
minister of the United Kingdom. And now you look
recently like, oh, forget about that. Let's turn
your head somewhere else because the way they're
behaving, I don't want you to behave like that.
I don't want you to talk about women like that.
I don't want to talk about everyone having to
have a vaccine like that, whatever the thing
is from each side. And so I agree. I mean, when
I grew up, there was a show called Blue Peter.
We were little and it was just it was it was
kind of informative, but it was always altruistic.
You know, the Ethiopian famine, they would get
us all to kind of do our own little fundraisers
in our towns and villages and then all donate
and, you know, raise millions of pounds. You
know, you guys had Bob Ross and Mr. Rogers and,
you know, kindness and compassion was front and
center. And I feel like the most censored voice
these days is the centrist person talking about
kindness, compassion and community. And that's
terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know,
bring up Bob Ross. I love watching. I don't know
why, but as a kid, I loved watching him paint.
Right. And my kids are 12 and 15. They both have
birthdays next month. But if you put Bob Ross
in front of them, it captivates them still today.
Right. It's still just as simple. It's just as
like the low tone, like the calmness of it all.
But it. It captivates them, you know, and I think
that when we were when we were younger, when
we were kids, there was just there was more of
that. We saw it. And now kids don't see it unless,
you know, you or I force them force it on. Right.
We kind of force it on them. But what I know
what I notice is that they they like that. I
think music is a good example of that. Right.
Music today sucks. It's I mean, there's some
good music out there, but for the most part,
it sucks. Like the amount of music produced versus
the good music. is just wildly apart from each
other, those numbers, right? And I think it's
cool that my kid's into Nirvana and stuff that
moves him. You know what I mean? And obviously,
like a lot of that music is actually talking
about a lot of hardship and raw, brutal things
that happen in artists' lives. But we just, you
know, musicians don't do that anymore. They don't
move kids the same way. So we're back to those
role models, right? inspiring people like how
are our kids going to inspire their grandkids
when they're not inspired today you know what
i mean like just like like we used to be told
you could be whatever you want now now nobody
wants to even take a job like they just want
to make millions off of sponsorships and ads
and on facebook or so you know instagram likes
and stuff like videos reels and stuff like that
so We're right back to that, you know? Yeah,
I think I really believe there's a revolution
coming, you know, a renaissance of kindness and
compassion and community. And even, I mean, just
to use an example, the modern American mall that
used to be full of department stores and people
would basically go in and, you know, buy orange
Julius and pretzels and buy a bunch of shit and
walk out with a bunch of bags. Now you're seeing
that model has failed. Because you can buy shit
online now. You can go on Amazon, click a bunch
of stuff. Yes, it's a huge organization, but
you can buy your stuff that you don't need to
go in a store. And so now these malls, like the
one where I live now, they're starting to change
where they're creating spaces for people who
actually want to be and communicate with each
other. Coffee shops and breweries and artisan
shops and that kind of thing. So I really believe
that this is like idiocracy. And we're almost
there. I mean, there's going to be a UFC on the
White House lawn. We're almost there. And then
there's going to be an explosion. Everyone's
minds are going to blow. And then they're going
to realize that we're actually, you know, on
some reality show. Then they're going to circle
around. So how are we doing it? Well, what was
the last kind of period that we were doing it?
Well, I think even this young, young generation,
they're leaning into the 80s and 90s right now.
That's even like a fashion thing. And then my
son's got a record player. Yeah. He's got Elton
John. He's got Bob Marley. You know what I mean?
So I think this exciting because there's a real,
you know, real opportunity for us to say, all
right, control, alt, delete. Sorry about the
last 10, 20 years. Let's get back to where we're
supposed to be. But, um, but yeah, but it has
to be again, all the voices. And this is what
I love about this, you know, talking to you,
you know, when it comes to the military side
and the jujitsu side and all the other areas
of your life. This is a valuable voice that people
listen to and go, wow, well, if that person is
thinking this way, maybe Fox News, CNN isn't
quite the right thing for me. So I'm very, very
optimistic. But you have to also have like Teflon
skin to let all the negativity, you know, go
past you. But I think at the core, I really think
there's this yearning for us to go back to where
we are, you know, and really make this country
as great as everyone knows it is. The version
of America that you grew up in in Michigan, that
to me is what we need to get back to, that community,
that nature, that fitness, that natural food,
that natural health. That's where we kind of
circle around. Well, you have a big platform,
right? You have a podcast and you can influence
and impact a lot of people. But I think people
think they don't have an impact when they don't
have the reach that A podcaster does like, right.
I'm not Joe Rogan. So I'm not going to, I'm not
going to be able to influence people, but you
know, when you have a crazy daunting task in
front of you, you take it a step at a time, right?
Like that's the secret to butts. Everybody always
asks about butts. How do you get through butts?
You literally take it one evolution at a time.
And even if you fail that evolution, it's behind
you and you don't, you don't even address it
until it comes back on your next try. right like
you have to attack each evolution individually
you have to compartmentalize and you have to
attack it you you know how do you eat an elephant
one bite at a time so people think well i'm a
family of four well you still can impact three
other people right and those and then those three
people are going to impact other people but we
don't look at it that way we think that we don't
have the reach to make a difference so then a
lot of people just don't do anything right and
they and they they have a lot to offer so i think
once people realize that maybe they are maybe
like you said you know kids are definitely i
do agree i think kids are looking for that now
so maybe we're maybe we're just lost enough as
a country and as a world that now our our youth
is trying to figure it out right they're trying
to find these things search for these things
because they're just lost but yeah i think that
we can impact it starts with our immediate family
and our friends and you impact those that you
can and if that's as far as your reach goes that's
enough you know we just take it one piece at
a time and if the whole country took it in their
their little piece that they can control not
control but that they can affect effectively
then as a country we'd start to you know heal
a little bit yeah the phrase goes you want to
change the world start a home doesn't say start
at the white house or 10 downing street or you
know wherever so uh yeah and this is the the
book i'm turning into a show at the moment this
is exactly what i want to do imagine if everyone
watched you know a show and it gave them hope
And it gave them some tools to actually work
on themselves first. And then, as you said, include
their partner and their children and then walk
out their front door and be a mentor in their
community because some children aren't lucky
enough to have one or both parents in the household.
Then imagine the impact, like you said, times
that by, you know, 100 million, the impact that
would have on this country. And then imagine
if we truly were the poster child for democracy.
how that would then spread through osmosis through
other countries in a peaceful way rather than
a Team America, World Police way. Yeah. Yeah,
for sure. Yeah, you affect what you can. You
know what I mean? And that changes. I was talking
about this to somebody the other day. You know,
at times you've got money. You could donate money,
right? You could say, oh, I'm going to give money
to this organization because they need it. They
could use it. Other times you have time, right?
Like, well, I don't have money, but I have time
right now. And I could, and I have these things
that I'm capable of teaching somebody else. Like
I donate a lot of time with jujitsu. I stay after
at class with people. I don't have to stay there.
I'm not getting paid for it, you know, but part
of it is it's mutually rewarding, right? Like
we yearn for respect and admiration and all these
things. But in return for those things, you help
somebody, right? And they grow and they feel
like you're investing in them. And yeah, it's
just, we get lost a little bit in the scale of
it all. Like, well, am I making an impact? But
people just need to realize they are. And then
I think lifestyle is a big deal too. You brought
it up a couple of times, just the way we eat
today, the nutrition, or not the nutrition, but
the fitness side of stuff. kind of gotten a little
lost on that. I think that starts with our school
systems. I think we need to get PE classes back
into the curriculum. Kids should be exercising
every day. That shouldn't be an option. They
should be exercising every day. They'd have more
cognitive clarity. They would have opportunities
to interact socially. in a situation that's not
so structured in the classroom right where they've
got these rigid boundaries and you know it's
getting wild right like you can't do this but
you have to accept that this person thinks they're
this right and there's like these all that there's
these weird rule sets inside the classroom that
i think as kids we sorted them out on the playground
right like that's where the majority of your
problems got solved where in the cafeteria at
lunchtime or on the playground right and now
we we've taken the playground away from kids
and um yeah we just we expect so much and demand
so much and put a lot of artificial barriers
in place so we could start there with the school
systems that would be a great place if we're
going to fix it through our youth we might as
well start it with education i said this during
covet again from that centrist point that you
know there was one truth whether you were all
in on vaccines, whether you thought it was a
Chinese conspiracy, whatever you lean towards,
the healthier you were, the higher the chance
you were going to survive an exposure to a virus,
any virus, period. That's an irrefutable truth.
Because even these anomalies, obviously there
was something within them that was creating some
sort of susceptibility to this particular virus.
So to me, all these people that were touting,
oh, it's for health, trust the science, it's
like, all right, perfect. everyone's going to
trust you. And in return, you're going to do
something for the health. So I'm waiting to see
you, you know, give a lot of financial subsidies
to local farmers all over the country to grow
organic food and meat, you know, meat finished
meat, meat finished meat, excuse me, grass finished
meat, meat finished meat is what we have at the
moment. That's what called mad cow disease. You
know, putting PE programs back in, getting rid
of soda machines from schools and getting the
chefs to make real food like we used to. You
know, all those things, pedestrianizing downtowns.
But nothing happened. None of that. And this
is what's so good. Then you get the influences,
the fitness people saying, oh, if you just wake
up at five and eat a salad and run 50 miles like
I do, you'll look like me. And you and I grew
up in an environment where food, you know, real
food was ingrained in our upbringing. Exercise
was ingrained in our upbringing. Being outside
and suffering was ingrained in our upbringing.
And so. I always tell people I'm never going
to stand on an ivory tower and tell someone that
grew up in Brooklyn and a bodega is where they
got their food and they couldn't play in the
basketball court. So there was a gang in there.
Oh, if you just did what I did, you'd be like
me. That's that's ridiculous. It's the environment
that we have to fix as well. So ownership, 100
percent. But ownership is also influenced by
the environment that you have. So, again, I think
once people realize that. If an organization
clearly isn't invested in their nation's health,
then you have to, as you said, go back to the
home. Can I go on YouTube and learn a little
bit more? Can I learn how to cook a meal? You
know, maybe let's just take a walk around the
block, whatever it is. But again, it's those
baby steps because, you know, the environment
really is setting people up for failure unless
you grow up in some rural part and you're on
a farm. So I think that needs to be part of the
conversation, as you said. identifying where
can we improve it. And then if enough voices
come together, why don't we use the last year
PE model that forged incredible health? And then
the other big thing is bullying. When you have
a good PE program where people are playing together
and you get them to work in teams, not only do
grades go up, but bullying comes down as well.
Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I had a couple of years
ago. I was trying to promote this law enforcement
BJJ program, right? Because I'm sure you saw,
like, Henner Gracie does the law enforcement
to blue belt deal, right? Like, every law enforcement
guy should have a blue belt in Brazilian jiu
-jitsu. And I agree with that. I think that they
should. I think that if you're going to put people
in harm's way and you're going to make them put
hands on other human beings, they should know
how to conduct themselves. And that's why we
have tragic events, because people aren't equipped.
physically or mentally to deal with confrontation
always right especially if you're new on the
force and whatnot so i agree with his his model
and i was working with some folks up here in
michigan and i said hey you know if we just met
even once a quarter right now and we put in a
full day your guys would be more confident and
his his answer and i don't fault him for this
but he was like justin you don't understand I
can't get my guys on the road to communicate
at traffic stops. They don't know how to communicate
verbally or non -verbally with their mannerisms
to people that they pull over. They make people
that they pull over uncomfortable because they're
socially inept right now because they've grown
up with their device. It's how they've communicated.
They're keyboard warriors. They can, you know,
they voice their opinions and their feelings
through their devices, and they're not on the
playground sorting stuff out. You know, they're
not dealing with confrontation when they're six
or seven, and they can't actually cause real
physical harm, right? They're getting into fistfights,
but they're little toddlers. You know, like we've
taken that away from these kids, right, this
built -in. thing of dealing with confrontation
at a young age. And then by the time you're older,
you know how to deal with it appropriately because
you've went through all that steps along the
way of development. We've removed all that. And
these guys are now on the force. And, you know,
they're like zombies. They stand in front of
a, I don't want to say criminal, but somebody
that they pull over or a house that they respond
to a domestic dispute. And they're like, they're
just zombies. They're flat affect. They don't
comfort. If anything, they incite discomfort
and rage. And he said, so we're working on building
their communication skills. Last thing we want
to do is give them martial arts training with
no communication skills and send them out there
because they'll just be rolling people up. They'll
go from escalational force. They'll skip everything
in between and they'll just go right to hands
on. If that's the only training they have. And
I didn't disagree with him. I'm like, well, shit.
Yeah, that's a problem. Guys and gals out there
don't know how to communicate outside of through
their phones, you know? So we got some things
to sort out. Start with the kids, the youth,
you know? What's interesting, because you, I
mean, that narrative is 100 % true. And, you
know, there's a huge hiring crisis in the fire
side. But what? is interesting is if you reverse
engineer people will say oh kids today don't
want to work and you know these kind of things
but actually kids today also have access to all
the information you talked about having dial
-up that barely worked when you were young it's
the same with me you know when i went into the
fire service 21 years ago now um you know you
there was a few sites and it was just like how
to ace your interview and that kind of thing
there's nothing about the other side of fire
service, which was all the shift work and the
cancers and the divorces and the alcoholism and
the suicides. And now when you Google, is it
healthy to be a firefighter? That's what comes
up. Now, don't get me wrong. It is the greatest
profession on the planet. I adore it. This is
why I've been out for seven years and I still
advocate for them to this day. But there are
things that are broken, which is then changing
it from when I got hired, thousands of people
testing for literally 30 jobs. to now they're
begging people to join police and fire. They're
offering tens of thousands of dollars as a hiring
bonus to bring you in. So my question is, as
you said, there are still wrestling programs
in Michigan. There are still CrossFit gyms full
of people that can communicate and suffer. There
are still, you know, all these other sports.
Why are those people not going to these agencies
where they walk in and they have good communication
skills? So this is the other side of the conversation
is what are our professions, plural, doing wrong
that we're not attracting the right people? And
there was a Wall Street Journal article I put
out about six months ago. Gen, what are they?
Gen Z are actually leaning into the traits because
the same information they're getting on the shit
side of the first responder professions, they're
also getting on the shit side of college. And
they're going, well, that sounds fucking awful.
$60 ,000 of debt for a piece of paper and I can't
get a job? Yeah, I don't think so. I'm going
to go be a welder. So they want to go in these
professions, but our professions have done a
shitty job of taking care of our people. And
we all know the stories of the cops that did
something the right way and then got thrown under
the bus by their agency. So I think this is the
other side of the coin, is how as employers do
we change things so we attract the right kind
of candidate again? Because if you're taking
everyone, yeah, now you've got the kid that was
stuck playing fucking whatever on his phone.
And now has terrible communication skills. And
like you said, is probably going to get himself
shot or someone else versus that person didn't
even make the list, no matter the cut, because
you've got, you know, 200 people trying to be
a cop in that particular agency. And they take
that top 10 and you get the right kind of person
that you can mold for that position that will
be chomping at the bit to take jujitsu classes.
Yeah. Yeah, it definitely lies on the leadership
and the PR side of it. I think you're right.
We have to do a better job promoting the good
that folks do, the good size of the job. I think
you're right. Nobody wants to be a cop right
now. My kid wanted to be a cop for a little while.
I'm around law enforcement all the time. a lot
of them are my members at the jiu jitsu academy
i train them through my llc on the side like
i really respect those guys i grew up i grew
up being told you don't mouth off to a cop you
know you get your ass thrown in jail and i'm
like i'm nine why would i get thrown that's how
we grew up right like you don't disrespect authority
even if you don't understand it you'll understand
it later so i kind of you know that's how i raise
my kids through that like well if you don't understand
it i'll help you understand it if you if you
still don't understand it you will when you're
older but this is how we do stuff right so we
conduct ourselves but my son he was telling one
of the swat officers he was like oh i wanna i
wanna be a cop when i'm older the guy like he
like leaned in he's like oh buddy don't say that
and i was just like geez you're really selling
it man you know and my kid this was years ago
but my kid was like okay you know and you could
just see though he was just he was beat down
he was a you know a guy that was getting getting
it from every side you know he was getting at
home because he's gone all the time the hours
are crazy right they're overworked and underpaid
he's getting it at work he's getting scrutiny
from leadership because leadership's getting
scrutiny from the state from the government you
know all these different from the from the public
blah blah blah uh he's getting it from his colleagues
because they're unhappy at work right and it's
just like it's not a good place to be right now
it's and i guess it sounds like fire is similar
in that respect and and the military is not as
bad because it's um it's insulated from from
that a little bit i don't know how they've managed
to do it but they've managed to insulate it a
little bit and we still see the recruitment piece
is still big you know with especially special
operations and whatnot. But I don't think recruiting,
I could be wrong, but I don't think recruiting
is down significantly compared to what it's ever
been. You know, I think it's still doing, they're
doing all right. I know for special programs,
they're finding, like you said, they're finding
those communities of, you know, the wrestling
communities, these kids that grew up in these
rural areas. And that's the unique thing about
those programs is that. People find those programs.
The programs don't find them. Law enforcement
and first responders, I think a lot of times
they go out and find their recruits. They do
that. They put on workshops and they try to bring
people in. There's not a lot of selling points.
They're not highlighting a lot of good stuff
right now. It's interesting when you speak to
your... community as a whole, when you're talking,
for example, about strength and conditioning
coaches in your community, they are forging performance.
They're trying to get you to, you know, rock
longer and run faster and, you know, carry more
weight and all the things because you really
are the tip of the spear. really fascinating,
certainly early on in this podcast, is when I'm
talking about police and fire, a lot of the guys
are like, yeah, we hold you guys to the same
standard as us. Now, they're not saying that
the cop will be able to pass a dev group selection,
but what they're saying, and it makes perfect
sense, is we are holding the line in this country.
And more importantly, we are protecting your
families when you're overseas doing what you're
doing. But when you contrast the kind of support
and standards that... your community has as a
whole, not even tier one, but as a whole. And,
you know, let's take, for example, the Green
Berets, you know, you've got the Thor 3 program,
you know, strength and conditioning and rehab
and all these other things, nutritionists and
psychologists and, you know, sleep medicine experts
and all these people that are helping, you know,
hopefully longevity, but certainly performance.
And then you contrast it to police and fire.
And those same people, nutritionists and strength
and conditioning coaches, when they come to us,
it's like, well, let's try and get you to die
a little bit less. That's it. That's it. So you
have such a unique lens because you were truly
at the peak of your community. And now you work
with law enforcement, especially. Talk to me
about that divide between the tools that you
guys were given and the bar that was set for
you versus the men and women in uniform that
you work with as far as the first responder professions.
Yeah, well, you know, I hear it all the time.
I'm teaching tonight at the academy and I bet.
There's going to be a handful of cops in there.
One I'm really good friends with. And he says
it all the time. He's like, we don't have, we
don't have all that cool stuff. We don't have
that cool shit that you had, you know? And he's,
that's the unfair piece of it is that he's, he's
right. Like, you know, the human performance
lab that we had at the command when I left, it
was insane. We had contrast baths. We had, you
know, I could go get, I could get a DEXA scan.
I could go. test my vo2 max you know fitness
wise if i was bored of lifting weights i could
go hit the rock wall i could go to the turf field
i you know there was just the resources were
unlimited really and we were spoiled in that
regard so coming back home and then seeing what
law enforcement has to offer and i will and i
will say even the tip of the spear back here
you know in terms of like swat teams and and
specialized units even they lack the resources
that we had overseas you know like we would we
would deploy with flyway kits that you know they
blow your mind you're like wow there's a hundred
thousand dollars worth of crossfit gear in this
isu you know and meanwhile we got you know some
old cable machines in what looks like a basement
you know looks like it's a cellar that these
guys some of these departments are working out
of I think it's getting better. I, you know,
at least here in Michigan, I've noticed that
I've been to a couple of the different facilities.
I've been like, damn, you guys have actually
got some nice stuff and you've got a mat room
and this and that. Is it being used yet? I don't
think so, because I think that that's the next
piece of it is now we've got the equipment and
now you've got to have professionals come in
and show you, not show you how to use it. That
sounds like derogatory or arrogant, you know,
but you do need coaches, you know, and that was
the other piece that we had. That is what is
unique about SEAL Team 6, the support there.
Thousands of people there, and not many of them
are SEALs, right? So you're able to, when you
need something, you're able to go find the subject
matter expert. You're able to go into the loft
and deal with a parachute rigger that's got,
you know, 20 ,000 jumps. You know what I mean?
And he can tell you. anything you need to know
you can go into the physical therapy department
and you've got four people that are ready to
take care of you right now i can go to therapy
every single day after my shoulder surgery i
said i wanted to be doing push -ups in 30 days
and i was doing it because i got to go in there
every single day i was getting you know ultrasound
i was getting ice and ice and hot baths and going
back and forth and you know they're scraping
they're you know they're just the the access
to tools and modalities is unlimited so you get
better you get better results out of your guys
um it's hard it's hard to see it uh it's hard
it's hard to come back and see how limited folks
are here you know and what's put on them because
i honestly i think they work hard more hours
i think you guys work harder hours truthfully
you know I mean, I see these guys in law enforcement,
especially I don't work with a ton of fire up
here because it's rural. If it was down in Detroit
or Flint, I would see a lot more firefighters.
But up here you have a lot of volunteer firefighters.
Right. So they have day jobs and whatnot. But
in terms of law enforcement, those guys, I mean,
they just they grind. They just grind and grind.
And that might be a piece of it is that there's
not time for the rehabilitation. There's not
time for the preventative measures because they're
grinding so hard. We're back to fixing the recruitment
piece, getting more butts in seats. And we forget
that 9 -11 did that for the military. We've gotten
far enough away from 9 -11 that we don't realize
that the reason the SEAL teams are what they
are today is because of all the books, the movies.
the glamour the glitz right like so that's why
recruiting has remained um and why we still have
butts in seats effectively but law enforcement
i think hasn't had that it hasn't been popularized
right and any of it i even talked about it earlier
like what what will what will solve this problem
with uh like values at home i think tragedy does
a lot of times I think we were slipping if we
look back to 1999, Y2K, right? At the end of
the 90s where things were getting a little crazy,
right? People were getting a little wild. We
had a reset with 9 -11 as a country at least.
9 -11 was so horrific and so tragic that it brought
the country back together. We're kind of unraveling
again. We're getting away again. And if you go
back in time, Pearl Harbor, all these events,
they kind of did the same thing. They unified
us. I hate that it takes tragedy to unify us
and correct problems in society, but it almost
feels like that's, you know, when you say there's
a reckoning coming or something, like, I don't
know what it is, but yeah, I would agree. It's
probably going to take a tragedy of some kind.
I honestly thought it was going to be COVID.
I thought COVID was going to be significant enough.
The impact that it had on our kids, right, sending
them home from school, blatant evidence and proof
that people don't care about your kids. They'll
send them home to not be educated, right? They
will vaccinate you whether you like it or not.
I thought that would be enough of a tragedy to
reset us. It felt like it was. I mean, this place,
look at, I mean, the world just stopped. But
it wasn't. It wasn't significant enough. So I
don't know what it's going to take now. I think
the problem with COVID is the same as I saw in
Katrina versus 9 -11. So when 9 -11 obviously
happened, you heard this phrase over and over
again, I missed 9 -12. All those communities
coming together, synagogues and mosques and temples
and churches and all these leaders from all these
different communities at that point were New
Yorkers and they were Americans. Katrina, it
was the opposite. If you kind of listen to a
lot of the footage then, they're just taking
this group out and not this group. And it was
very divisive. the people making the choices
and the storytelling from that became even more
divisive. And, you know, let me take all of your
autonomy away. Because if you think about it,
if we sat down and we were like, how could we
make sure that people were the most vulnerable
to a virus? Like, all right, well, we're going
to lock them in their house. They can have alcohol
and fast food delivered to their house. They
can binge watch Netflix. They're not allowed
to see their family or friends. Perfect. You
know, that'll break them down. So the information
they got, regardless of masks, vaccines, all
that other stuff, to break down a country, that
was the perfect tool to do that. And that started
on one side of the aisle and then carried on
on the other side of the aisle. So to me, that
kind of tragedy, we're seeing that tragedies
aren't doing that anymore. So I hope it's the
opposite. I hope it's an upswell of movement.
And again, I'm grandiose with this TV show, but
I'm hoping it's sowing the seeds. Where, what
if we didn't wait for a tragedy? What if we just
simply started coming together and we identified
that if someone, I don't care who they are, whether
it's a teacher in the classroom or president
or prime minister, if they are deliberately dividing
you, that's tyranny. And if they're bringing
you together, that's leadership. And if we identify
that, whatever rung of the ladder it is, then
you start seeing it for what it is. And so I
hope that there's this time there's an awakening
rather than a tragedy, because God forbid we
wait for another tragedy. And this time it doesn't
bring us together. The same voices put us further
and further apart. And then God knows what happens
then. Yeah, I hope I hope you're right. And I.
I have thought that way for a while. And like
I said, COVID didn't do it. And to me, it was
a tragedy. I mean, we didn't I didn't I didn't
get vaccinated. I didn't get my kids vaccinated.
And today it doesn't matter. I could walk out
in town and I could tell anybody, any neighbor,
anybody in the community, if they asked me, are
you kids vaccinated? I could say, nope. And they
were like, oh, cool. And about our business,
we go. That wouldn't have happened when the vaccines
were being pushed, right? Like I was, you know,
my kids weren't allowed to hang out with other
kids. They weren't allowed to, you know, I was,
you know, getting shouted at. stores for not
having my mask on or you know standing out in
the in the yard with it not on you know ridiculous
stuff all the way all across the country right
but we we just forgot about it and it didn't
really solve it didn't fix any of the problems
that you know maybe organically would get fixed
through tragedy where like you get a country
reunited no we're just as divided we're you know
so i hate i don't want to be pessimistic I hope
you're right. I hope that it is something contrary
to a tragedy and we've solved it on our own.
And maybe it is naturally doing that. It just,
it seems like things always need a catalyst,
right? They need something to ignite those movements.
And I don't know what it'll, maybe it'll just
be an overwhelming amount of, you know, what's
going on, the, you know, lostness that we have
out there. Absolutely. Well, I want to hit one
more kind of law enforcement tactical question,
and then we'll move to some closing questions.
One of the things, and bearing in mind, this
is coming from a firefighter originally from
England, so I am no way, shape, or form an expert
in anything law enforcement, but having a background
in martial arts and understanding the force multiplier
of two people versus one, for example, whether
it's hands -on or I would imagine with weapons.
It's always seemed crazy to me that many, many
parts of the country, we have one officer to
a car. And if you're talking about deterrent,
you're talking about de -escalation, that doesn't
seem a good model. From your very, very unique,
well -versed perspective. What is your lens on
that kind of tactics in law enforcement? And
should we be moving back to two people in a car
so that you have the ability to deescalate and
keep our officers safer and the people that they're
trying to arrest safer? Yeah, I think we should,
100%. I think that in the military, we don't
deviate from that at all. It's swim buddy integrity.
As soon as you get the buds, you need to be within
six feet of your swim buddy at all times. And
like I consider, like we all do, right? If you
go into a profession like that, you consider
yourself a capable man that doesn't need assistance.
But I'll tell you what, I find a lot of comfort
in having another well -equipped and capable
human being on my right or left side, right?
And I think that... You know, we as as humans,
just as a species, like we have to have somebody
to as a sounding board to just bounce things
off of. So I think in law enforcement, I think
it provides clarity, even if it's just, you know,
brief, you know, decisions that are happening.
Like, what should we do now? Whoa, pause. You
know, like all it takes is one other person's
perspective from a different lens to say pause.
right reset like we talk about that in the in
house clearance all the time right like anybody
can say reset what happens when you're in there
by yourself right we don't we don't preach one
-man room entries that's a no -no right we've
done we do them because sometimes you have to
and you get spread too thin but you don't enter
a room with less than two guys ever that's a
that's a rule of ours we violate it for the needs
of the mission set but I tell guys that all the
time. If you get in the room and you don't like
something, you just say reset. Somebody starts
moving, reset. And everybody knows, okay, he
saw something I didn't see. And I think that
that's really important with law enforcement
as well, to have two sets of eyeballs on these
problems. They're safer. I think you're going
to mitigate risk in regards to dealing with suspects
and people as you're responding to these situations.
I think you're... safer in general just i mean
even if you're road dogs and you're riding around
right like two people in one car keeping the
other one awake you know being on the radio not
missing things like i i like working in tandem
i think that the military does that correctly
they make sure you have a battle buddy a swim
buddy you don't go anywhere without them i mean
you show up you show up alone at buds it's the
first thing that gets asked where's your swim
buddy uh you better go find him because you you
know you're not supposed to be here without him
you know i mean we tether ourselves to each other
in the ocean and swim do two mile ocean swims
you don't go anywhere without your swim buddy
and it it's both a sense of comfort you know
it's a a sense of you get confidence from it
like you you feel like a for a forceful you like
you have multiplied because you have you know
So, yeah, I think that law enforcement should
go with that. I understand why they can't because
of the manning issues that they're presented
with. That is the one thing that sucks. And then
I think that there's a little bit of that bleed
over, I would say, from special operations to
specialized units in law enforcement where, just
like I told you, I was packing a war bag and
a suit. I think some of our specialized agents
are doing the same thing. I think that they're
wearing too many hats. You know, they're responsible
for serving, you know, serving warrants in the
morning and in the afternoon. They're they're
doing some high profile personal personnel security
detachment. Right. They're escorting somebody
from the capital state capital around at the
Cherry Festival in Traverse City. You know what
I mean? And that's, I think that that there,
I understand that they want their best around
these folks, but you're, you're, you're creating
a Manning issue when you make these guys work
that level of that level of hours. And then you
just run out of people, you run out of bodies.
So if we could fix the Manning issue, I think
getting back to swim buddy integrity would be
a great, great thing. It's interesting because
even on the money side, From my profession, which
is interesting, we do buddy systems. Whether
you're a paramedic, you usually have an EMT or
another medic. And in a fire, there's two of
you searching a house. So one's on the wall,
one's searching the room. So there is that in
my profession specifically. But when it comes
to staffing and, again, the mismanagement and
the lack of interest in our professions, now
you're filling these holes with overtime. What
most cities and counties are going to discover
is there's a shitload of money. It's just all
downstream because you're wasting it and overworking
and breaking your people. So when you invest
at the front end, whether you have a fourth shift
of firefighters or a second person in the car,
maybe a few fewer cars on the road. Now, what
are those lawsuits against law enforcement for
being too rough, for wrong shoot, all these other
things? How many millions of dollars could you
potentially save by having two officers in the
car? So I'm not a financial guru at all, but
I'm learning this fast that people want more
money. For example, nationally, if we want money
to put PE programs and real food in schools,
imagine the money you would save if you address
the obesity crisis. You know what I mean? Trillions
of dollars. So it's not about more money. It's
like looking at your agency going, where is the
money being lost? How can we put that back upstream
so that we can prevent losing it downstream?
And then over and over again, that seems to be
one of it. It sounds simple, but that is one
of the financial applications of this. And then
when you are able then to add more resources
and now you can put the bar higher, then you
have people lining up around the wall again to
come work for your agency. And as you said, you
choose the people that look for the profession
rather than looking for the people for your profession.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know. We've
got to stop letting Kellogg and Kraft and people
like that control things as well, too, right?
Like, they're the ones putting a lot of that
food, Coca -Cola, right? They're putting those
things in front of our kids. And I don't know
if there's any of that going on with law enforcement,
if there's money to be made somewhere. But it
just seems like, yeah, it seems like that two
-man integrity would be a solution to a lot of
problems, just sharing resources, a squad car.
Right. Like crashing a squad car. I can imagine
that a lot of crashes occur because a single
driver's tired shift. I mean, swapping out driving
shifts and, you know, being behind the wheel.
Like I just I would imagine, yeah, you'd mitigate
a lot of the wasteful spending that we have by
sharing resources and having two guys. So, yeah,
I agree. One other quick side conversation. You
mentioned having young kids yourself still. Talk
to me about your perspective on the school violence,
school shooting issue that we have at the moment.
How, if any, what are some of the proactive initiatives
we can do even culturally in our community? And
then what about the kind of law enforcement,
SRO, all those kind of elements when it comes
to the reactive, God forbid someone has an incident
in their school? Yeah. This is a personal opinion,
but I would love to see teachers armed. Not every
teacher, not the teachers that don't want to
be armed, that don't like guns and feel afraid.
I'm not looking for accidental discharges out
of faculty members because they hate the idea
of guns. I'm talking you go into every school
district and you hold a gun. you know, you hold
a meeting and you say, Hey, how many of you in
here are willing to go get your concealed carry
permit and train regularly and put it on, put
it on this sheet that, you know, this checkoff
sheet that you've trained every quarter for the
entire year. You know what I mean? One day, one
day, every quarter to get your concealed carry
advanced training or whatever, we're going to
do it through the police post. We'll do it through
a, you know, a private person like myself, but
that would, if we had people, folks that were
willing to do that. And I know they are because
i live in this community and i know all these
teachers and i can i could point you in the direction
of 10 of them right now that would be more than
happy to carry a firearm in school to protect
our kids that's going to be the biggest deterrent
we talk about gun control and you know everybody
we get all this scrutiny from other places well
you know when guns go away people kill people
with knives you know like there's bad people
are always going to do bad things okay like we
were how many decades into these wars that ieds
have been been utilized like eventually we'll
have to deal with that state side as well we
already we already are right so um the problem
the violence and the evil is not going away but
you can deter it from coming to your home okay
like you're probably not gonna If you knew a
school district was armed teaching, you know,
the first door you go through, somebody might
be holding a gun. It's going to cause people
to pause. They're going to say, hey, do I want
to go in here? I mean, I understand that some
of them just don't care about their lives. They
don't have any, you know, they don't feel that
way. Like they see themselves as a martyr or
whatever. They're so mentally ill that they don't
care. But I think that would be a big deterrent
because one of the biggest things is the trophy,
right? School shooters want their trophy. They
want to take people out. It's like a thief. Most
thieves hold on to the shit that they steal from
you as trophies, even if they didn't want it.
They steal stuff they don't need or want, and
they keep it because it's a trophy of what they've
done. They're sick in the head. These people
that are shooting up schools are sick in the
head as well. Their achievement is killing somebody.
That's their achievement. In a school shooting,
their achievement to them. is taking lives well
if we take that from them that's a deterrent
in itself that they're not going to be able to
achieve their goal so i i feel like arming our
our school districts and finding people you know
we always make this we you always see the joke
like we have this massive veteran population
that would gladly stand outside schools and protect
our kids well i don't really agree with that
i don't think we need you know, bearded veterans
that are, you know, a case of beer in wearing
their, their makeshift kits and think that they're,
you know, the world, a world hero, uh, outside
our school districts. Like there's a little bit
of that brandishing, right? Like come, come cause
problems because I'm ready for them. I don't
think we should go to that extreme. I just think
we should discreetly teach people inside of our
school systems how to handle. those situations.
And I think you handle violence through violence.
I don't think you handle people that have chemical
imbalances that are willing to take lives. I
don't think you handle that with hiding or talking
to them. I think that there needs to be real
deterrence in their way. We need to remove their
goals from them. If your goal is to take lives,
I'm going to remove that. Because if you come
in here, I'm going to take your life first. And
then they're like, well, shit, not only am I
dying for this, but I also didn't win anything.
Right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's interesting. I mean,
hearing the back story of so many of these shooters,
Dave Grossman on, I think three or four times
now. But his perspective is fascinating. He wrote
a whole book on this. But, you know, we look
at the so many of them are on psych meds. So
many of them have the broken home. So many of
them are just immersed in video games. People
forget that if you play video games through the
night, now you've added sleep deprivation and
you have this perfect storm for psychosis. But
a lot of these shooters, once they were confronted,
they stopped because that wasn't the story in
their mind. That wasn't in the video game, whether
it was an armed teacher or just an unarmed teacher
at that point. or a police officer or an SRO.
So it does make sense. I know that some people
kind of feel uncomfortable about that, but whether
it's an SRO at the front door or knowing that
some teachers also are going to be carrying,
at this point, it's for the environment. Something
has to be done that's extreme. I witnessed a
code red with my son. Happened to be bringing
him back from a doctor's appointment. And they
slammed the doors behind me and said, you've
got to come into this office. We've got a code
red. And I got to see it from the inside as a
first responder who would normally be on the
outside. And it's terrifying because these kids
are helpless. So, you know, I think it's so important.
But then, you know, on the other side, again,
this is going to be a much longer term fix is
we didn't used to have school shootings and we've
had guns in this country for hundreds of years.
So what are we doing generationally that's causing
this kind of psychosis? you know, lone wolf mentality
as well, because it's not just, you know, the
school shootings, as you said, it's the domestic
terrorists being influenced by ISIS and, you
know, Al Qaeda and all these other groups, too.
So it's a double headed issue. We have to have
that reactive point now. But also, how can we
I think this ties into what you said, the kindness,
compassion, the positive role models. How can
we stop these broken children becoming these
psychotic killers? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know,
having people that become decisive in action.
Right. Like you said, it could be an armed teacher
or an unarmed teacher. But if a teacher in general
stood up and said, I'm not going, you know, I'm
not going to stand idly by while you come into
my classroom with a gun. God forbid a teacher
loses their life. But how many kids would that,
you know, if those children survived that, you
hate to. make her him or her the role model right
but but that is a that is a really good role
model right like somebody from your community
that sacks up right and puts themselves between
your children and in danger real danger right
and we've we've just completely gotten away from
that we've you know we would rather tell people
to hide we'd rather tell them to get under their
desks and pray that this this evil is not going
to show its face and it's just like no if we
start making people you know accountable and
tell them hey you know it's on you you took you
took an oath right you came here and you took
an oath to you know to take care of these children
like people bring their kids to school and they
drop them off and they trust you with their lives
they don't just trust you to educate them they
trust you with their lives and part of that is
if a situation like this arises You put yourself
between them in that situation. And then it's
this cycle, right, of like, wow, I had a teacher
when I was a little kid. Saved my life. You know
what I mean? That's why I want to be a teacher.
And that's why I want to be that guy. I want
to be the fit PE teacher that stood up to evil.
You know what I mean? Because some kid had it
when he was a kid. And we don't want a bunch
of those examples. But you can see how that would
start to impact generations, you know. A hundred
percent. All right. Well then speaking of that,
talk to me about what you're doing now and the
training that you offer. Yeah. So, um, I'm an
affiliate head over at Sungny Academy in Traverse
City. We're a Gustavo Machado affiliate. So I
met Gustavo while I was in the SEAL teams. He
would come in a couple of days a week and train
us. Um, we did, you know, we would primarily
do jujitsu with him, but he became a friend.
And when I got out, I just, I needed to somehow.
stay connected with a little bit of who I was,
you know, I needed my identity. And I think my
ex -wife even said it best. She was just like,
you know, you're going crazy around here. You
got to get, you got to do something, whether
it's shooting or getting back into martial arts
or skydiving. She's like, I don't know what it
is, but you got to do something, you know, because
just lifting weights in the garage isn't enough.
So I got back into jujitsu and I would say that
that really ignited. My passion for not just
jiu -jitsu and fighting, but like the human performance
in general and the holistic health, you know
what I mean? Like I'm big on all of that because
just that singular piece of jiu -jitsu really
helped me cope with the transition. I felt like
I maintained a little bit of my identity. I felt
healthier, you know, going back, getting back
to it after being out of the game for... a year
in that transition leaving the navy i immediately
felt healthier again i felt sharper cognitive
cognitively speaking um i felt happier i was
releasing those endorphins in a way that you
just can't going in the garage and you know putting
up your reps and sets and going through the motion
and playing on your phone and this and that it's
something that has been very healing for me and
then i've been able to impact others through
that so that's the primary thing that i do is
coach jiu -jitsu we have the academy over in
tc and then i also with my llc i do a lot of
uh firearms training with everything from you
know fundamental shooting courses all the way
up to close quarters combat for uh swat teams
in the state do a little bit of traveling for
it here and there i'm i'm big on the training
piece i think that if you're going to carry a
firearm you should train i don't I'm not one
of those people that are just like, everybody
should own a gun. You shouldn't own a gun if
you don't know how to use a gun. I'm not like
that. I don't believe that. Because then you're
just a danger to somebody because bad guy's going
to take the gun from you. That's a really simplistic
way to look at it. But you're a liability if
you don't train and you carry a gun. So I'm a
big advocate of that. That's primarily what I
do with my LLC is I train a lot of... a lot of
police officers. I get a lot of vets that are
out and they just want to stay on the gun and
train and blow off steam and keep their skills
sharp. Some of them compete, do like three gun
competitions and stuff like that. I prefer teaching
the CQC piece, you know, clearing structures
and whatnot. That's why I really gravitate towards
law enforcement, helping them with that. I think
that, you know, the organization I came from,
Gave me so many great tools, right, to utilize
that some of that stuff can bleed over very seamlessly
into law enforcement and save lives. So very
big on that. And that's pretty much what my LLC
focuses on. I did a little bit of like CrossFit
coaching and functional health stuff right after
I finished up my bachelor's degree. I enjoy that.
But that piece, you really have to have a. a
client that they have to invest they have they
have to be really bought in for that to work
where i can take somebody on the mat and i can
immediately show them why putting their hand
here results in this right you can show them
the you know how this mistake is vital they have
they have to address it where people come in
they tell you they want to get in better shape
and You give them the tools and then they either
do it or they don't. And I can't be there at
night with them when they're getting into the
cookie jar. So I like leaning towards that side
of human performance, the tactical side, the
martial arts and the shooting. And then I also,
I work for Home Pro Roofing. So we put roofs
out through the summer and I do a little bit
of everything. I've pretty much been in sales
since 2020. I work for... Kuyu, a high, high
end hunting clothing industry. And then after
that, I started doing a little bit of roofing
and I do a little bit of all of it. But my passion
is definitely with the jujitsu and the close
quarters combat and shooting. Where are the best
places to find you online or those websites?
Yeah, you can go to Sungni Academy in Traverse
City. I can send that to you. So you have that
wrote down. thank you that's where we that's
where we have our jiu jitsu facility it's in
traverse city and then you can always just email
me at shane1876 gmail .com and i'll i'll get
you set up with personal instruction if that's
what you're looking for we do done a lot of different
stuff i for a while i did uh leadership courses
i brought not leaders not your traditional leadership
i had a a really high level wrestling team in
the state they would come up malt like multi
-time state champions and they would bring their
seniors up and I'd put them on the gun range.
They'd bring chaperones and sign waivers and
go through everything. But at the end of the
year when they would have their banquet, that
was always the pictures they had up at the banquet
were them up on the range with me training. I
would do little stress courses. We'd put the
heavyweight down and put him on an Israeli stretcher.
They'd have to run with the guy on the Israeli
stretcher. Put the stretcher together, which
if you've ever put an Israeli stretcher together,
you know what a pain in the ass that is. So they
got to experience a little bit of the heartache
that goes with being a combat medic and being
under stress and time and whatnot. We do Kim's
drills, you know, the old sniper Kim's drills,
make them memorize objects and sounds that are
happening in the background and stuff like that.
So we did some really cool leadership courses
with groups like that. Those are really fun.
full day courses so really pretty pretty customizable
i would say beautiful Well, Justin, I want to
say thank you so much. It's been such an interesting
conversation, obviously, especially with the
group that you were associated with. We're not
going to take deep dives into ops and, you know,
Intel, things like that. But I think that knowing
your background, your perspective on a lot of
the issues that we discussed today has been really,
really invaluable. So I want to thank you so,
so much for being so generous with your time
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Absolutely. Thank you for having me.