WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran

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-owned and operated performance optimization

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company that I introduced recently as a sponsor

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on this show. Well, since then I have actually

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been using my products and I have had incredible

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success. There was initial blood work that was

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extremely detailed and based on that they offered

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supplementation. So I began taking DHEA. BPC

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-157 for inflammation based on the fact that

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I've been a stuntman, a martial artist and a

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firefighter my whole life. Lots of aches and

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pains. Dihexa to help cognition after multiple

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punches to the head and shift work and peptides.

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Four months later they did a detailed blood work

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again and I was actually able to taper off two

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of the peptides because my body had responded

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so well to just one of them that it was optimized

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which I would argue is needed by a lot of the

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fire service, or whether it's exogenous testosterone

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needed, especially after TBIs or advanced age.

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Now, as I mentioned before, the other side of

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this company is an altruistic arm called the

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Transcend Foundation, which is putting veterans

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and first responders through some of their protocols

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free of charge. Now, Transcend are also offering

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And you can find that on jamesgearing .com under

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the Products tab. And if you want to hear more

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about Transcend and their story, listen to episode

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808 with the founder, Ernie Colling. or go to

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transcendcompany .com. Welcome to the Behind

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the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James

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Gearing, and this week it is my absolute honor

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to welcome on the show Ohio firefighter paramedic

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Patrick Mullen. Now, in this conversation, we

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discuss a host of topics, from his journey into

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the fire service, working in a rural department,

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his experience working the 24 -72 shift schedule,

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mental health, the Save a Warrior program, Brothers

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Helping Brothers, and so much more. Now, before

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we get to this incredible conversation, as I

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say every week, please just take a moment, go

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to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in return

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is that you help share these incredible men and

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women's stories so I can get them to every single

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person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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Mullen. Enjoy. Well, Patrick, I want to start

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by saying thank you so much for taking the time

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and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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Thank you, James. Appreciate it. So where on

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planet Earth are we finding you this afternoon?

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So today I am actually at home in a small town

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in Ohio called Anaheim on the west side of the

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state. Which is the largest city that people

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would recognize closest to you? Closest to me,

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you have the city of Sydney, which is just south,

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the city of Lima, which is north. So I'm about

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45 minutes north of Dayton, Ohio. Okay. So not

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too far from Jim Bernica then? Nope, not at all.

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Brilliant. All right. Well, then I would love

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to start at the very beginning of your timeline.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a

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little bit about your family dynamic, what your

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parents did, how many siblings. All right. So

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I was born in Oregon, Ohio, which is a suburb

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of Toledo. Then my father was a firefighter,

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retired as chief officer. My mom was a stay -at

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-home mother for most of her life. I did a little

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bit of home daycare. And I have two younger sisters,

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my sister Nicole and Maggie. Beautiful. What

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was your experience, or when you reflect back

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now with 2025 eyes, the pros and the cons of

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being in the family with a father as a firefighter?

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So actually, my grandfather was as well. So there

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was two first responders in the family. Kind

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of goes along the same saying. Looking back,

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you definitely learn the, I hate to use the term,

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but use the workaholic mindset because everybody

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has a second job. And looking back, it was great

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as a kid growing up. You're around fire trucks,

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you're around other firefighters, families, other

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families, kids. That part was great. But you

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definitely learn a different. I hate to use the

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term family dynamic, but family dynamic when

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it comes to working and providing because of

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the fact that most of us have second jobs. Was

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it historically always the case that in Ohio,

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obviously in this case, that the firefighters

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were not paid the kind of wage that a loan would

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sustain a family? Yes and no. A lot of it's area

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dependent. The bigger cities seem to have a little

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bit higher wage in Ohio. Some of your smaller

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towns and smaller cities were a little bit lower

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on the scale. Currently, where I sit, we're all

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right in the middle, roughly, between some of

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the bigger cities and smaller cities as well.

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But yeah, for the most part in the state, unless

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you were in a Richard suburb or in a bigger city,

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you were kind of on that medium to low, right

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around that. $45 ,000 to $50 ,000 range, you

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know, about 20 years ago. Gotcha. All right.

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Well, then what about sports and exercise? What

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were you playing and doing as a kid? So as a

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kid, I was a outdoorsy kid, hunting, fishing,

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played a little bit of everything from t -ball

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to soccer. Kind of my big thing throughout middle

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school and high school was wrestling and golf.

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I know the two exact opposites. But yeah, I learned

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my... the exercise ethic through wrestling and

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that kind of determination and hard work. And

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it's more of that kind of individual, but team

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sport. And then golfing, I just, I love to walk

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in the courses. It was a different, it was more

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of a solace game. You kind of just enjoy the

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round environment and the people you're with.

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I ask people a lot of times, you know, what did

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they pull from the team sports they played and

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then the individual sports? Obviously, I was

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a martial artist, so wrestling or taekwondo,

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you're on the mat, you've got an opponent. There's

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a lot of ownership there. But golf is an interesting

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one. So when you reflect back now, what were

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the elements, especially between the two years,

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the application of what you learned in golf to

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the fire service? So with golfing, there is a

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decent amount of skill involved. I mean, anybody

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can go out and whack a golf ball. Absolutely.

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I was not the best. You know, I was a upper 80s,

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mid 90s in high school. Sometimes I would get

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lucky and get that low 80s round. But there's

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definitely a lot of practice, a lot of training

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involved. I would spend three nights a week at

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the range, three to four nights a week at practice,

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and then try to get as many rounds in as I could.

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I also, while golfing, caddied at a local country

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club. So you go in a little bit of work there,

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too. So when you compare that to firefighting,

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we're constantly training. We're constantly learning.

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We're looking at it through a different set of

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eyes. So for me, when I was on the golf course,

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I was looking for where's the hills, what's the

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distance, the angles of the green, slope, weather.

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Was it moist? Was there a lot of moisture on

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the ground? Then you go into firefighting, you're

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looking at, whether as a new firefighter, just

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looking at, okay, I just want to get my first

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fire. You go through basic training and you're

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focused on getting your card and then getting

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a job and getting on that truck, right? For me,

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that was the majority of my first few years of

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my career. And then I started realizing, hey,

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this has a lot to relate with. you know sports

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in general you can start to concentrate more

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on little areas whatever more i could learn you

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start deep diving um spent a lot of time uh learning

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about different types of nozzles and how fire

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stream application works um i spent a lot of

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time as i developed into a pump operator you

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know learning how pumps worked and i think a

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lot of that comes from that kind of individual

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ability just kind of dive in and concentrate

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on what you're working on And that was kind of

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the same thing with golf, because it is interesting

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that when you're on a golf course, you pay attention

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to everything, whether it's your stance, how

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your feet are setting the slope of the green,

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all that. And that all plays in the same in the

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fire service. A lot of what we do, it's very

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situational dependent. When you look at the sports

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world, especially when people get to a high level,

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there's a huge amount of expertise that surrounds

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the athlete and sports psychologists and breathwork

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coaches are some of the ones that you see at

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the top level. And, you know, knowing that golf

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literally is a game of millimeters, depending

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on how you're turning the club or your shoulder

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or whatever it is. You know, I would imagine

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that as you start climbing that ladder, you're

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exposed to some of these tools that these top

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people use. Did you have any kind of exposure

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to meditation, breath work? Some of the things

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that we know now do work very well in the first

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responder professions as well. So back then,

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no, it was more of a just try to learn how to

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clear your mind before you hit. Um, today a lot,

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I do a lot with meditation breath work, um, especially

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on the golf course. And when I'm out there, same

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with that work, um, it, that kind of calming,

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uh, ability to do like for me, I do a 20 minute

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meditation every day. So, um, that meditation

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at home before I go into work just kind of starts

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a day off. Right. And then like on the golf course,

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I do a. a little decent amount of breath work.

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Generally, before I hit, I'll just close my eyes

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and just relax. A couple of deep breaths, just

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relax, and you step up and hit the ball. It really

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does play a good role, I think, in today's fire

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service. Meditation, definitely, if you can learn

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how to clear your mind and keep your mind positive

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and start, whether it's starting your day, ending

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your day, whatever it might be, it helps keep

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that positive mindset and really relieve any

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stresses that you may have. Yeah, I found it.

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It was inadvertent, but I had a long journey

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of martial arts prior to the fire service. But

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when you had those calls that really had the

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pucker factor, whether it was a cardiac arrest

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or whether it was a multiple call structure fire,

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that just simply, as you said, just taking those

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few breaths before, in your case, stepping up

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to the ball or before opening the engine door

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and getting out and going to work. It's really

00:11:44.539 --> 00:11:46.879
interesting now seeing that it's not just about

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mental health that we'll get into in a bit, but

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it's also about performance. Look at the highest

00:11:51.059 --> 00:11:54.700
level performance in sports. They use meditation.

00:11:54.919 --> 00:11:57.320
They use breath work. So it's not all woo -woo,

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hippie, PTSD stuff. Even though it partly is,

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there's absolutely an application for the same

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thing to improve your performance as a firefighter.

00:12:08.090 --> 00:12:10.929
Absolutely. And just something as simple as taking

00:12:10.929 --> 00:12:13.730
a few calming breaths, even before making entry

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into a house fire, get your heart rate under

00:12:15.549 --> 00:12:19.250
control. Most of us, even, you know, even in

00:12:19.250 --> 00:12:21.429
my career, I'm still get that jumping heart rate.

00:12:21.669 --> 00:12:24.529
And if you can just get that heart rate down

00:12:24.529 --> 00:12:26.409
just a little bit before you go in, your mind's

00:12:26.409 --> 00:12:30.710
clear, your thinking's better. You're more aware

00:12:30.710 --> 00:12:34.590
of your environment and teaching that to our

00:12:34.590 --> 00:12:37.789
younger firefighters as well, just to. Take that

00:12:37.789 --> 00:12:40.289
step back for just a split second before you

00:12:40.289 --> 00:12:42.990
go in to kind of get the lay of your environment

00:12:42.990 --> 00:12:46.789
is really a big helpful thing. I've said this

00:12:46.789 --> 00:12:49.669
a few times on here, but it wasn't too long ago

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that I had this realization that we have one

00:12:52.389 --> 00:12:55.110
of the only professions on the planet where the

00:12:55.110 --> 00:12:57.830
only amount of air available to you is strapped

00:12:57.830 --> 00:13:00.929
to your back. I'd say underwater welders and

00:13:00.929 --> 00:13:02.809
that kind of thing are the only other ones or

00:13:02.809 --> 00:13:07.120
astronauts. So when you think about that, The

00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:10.779
fact that there isn't an enforced fitness standard

00:13:10.779 --> 00:13:12.879
and the fact that breath work and meditation

00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:15.919
aren't a large part of the conversation, or at

00:13:15.919 --> 00:13:19.019
least weren't when we got hired, it really is

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quite mind -blowing. Because when you get that

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heart rate down, I mean, I love the CrossFit

00:13:23.799 --> 00:13:26.080
EMOM, you know, 30 seconds of work, 30 seconds

00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:28.399
of rest. So, you know, let's say you've climbed

00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:31.059
a few flights of stairs, you pause on a stairwell,

00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:33.399
take a moment to get the heart rate down again,

00:13:33.500 --> 00:13:35.679
and then you continue so you conserve your bottle.

00:13:36.350 --> 00:13:38.690
But yeah, when you really put it into perspective,

00:13:39.009 --> 00:13:42.809
the only air accessible to us in IDLH is that

00:13:42.809 --> 00:13:45.769
tank on your back. Why would you not do everything

00:13:45.769 --> 00:13:48.269
you possibly could to lower your heart rate and

00:13:48.269 --> 00:13:52.509
lower your respiratory rate? Absolutely. When

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I was younger, when I got hired and there was

00:13:56.090 --> 00:13:58.629
no physical jelly test, it was a high school

00:13:58.629 --> 00:14:02.250
equivalency test. But I was still at that time,

00:14:02.269 --> 00:14:06.440
I was still doing a lot of 5Ks. Generally worked

00:14:06.440 --> 00:14:10.080
out a decent amount. I wasn't a big guy, but

00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:12.759
it was more of that younger mindset, physical

00:14:12.759 --> 00:14:14.440
fitness. All the guys you're working with are

00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:16.919
about your age and you kind of just do it all

00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:21.120
together. As I've gotten older, I'm not much

00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:23.559
of a runner anymore. I find alternative methods,

00:14:23.639 --> 00:14:25.860
whether it's walking the golf course, hiking,

00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:29.379
backpacking, kayaking, different methods to do

00:14:29.379 --> 00:14:33.360
some cardio as well. And then when I. When I

00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:36.120
train, a lot of the times when you get to put

00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:38.600
that mask on, you try to get your heart rate

00:14:38.600 --> 00:14:40.539
up beforehand. So if we're going to do a training,

00:14:40.620 --> 00:14:42.120
I'm trying to do something to get my heart rate

00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:45.580
jolted. And then so that way you get your mindset

00:14:45.580 --> 00:14:47.679
going of, oh, my heart rate's up. Now I can take

00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:49.519
them breaths, calm down, just as if we were going

00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:51.519
in. And you're absolutely correct. You know,

00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:55.220
you got 30 to 45 minutes of actual time or, you

00:14:55.220 --> 00:14:57.980
know, 12 to 15 minutes of work time on a bottle.

00:14:58.500 --> 00:15:02.690
You want every bit of air you can. And yes, there's

00:15:02.690 --> 00:15:05.090
breathing techniques out there, but when you

00:15:05.090 --> 00:15:08.230
get moving, you don't generally think, hey, I

00:15:08.230 --> 00:15:09.750
need to slow my breathing down. You just continue

00:15:09.750 --> 00:15:13.230
with that task. So absolutely holding a decent

00:15:13.230 --> 00:15:15.490
fitness standard and having a physical agility

00:15:15.490 --> 00:15:18.110
test is really important in today's fire service.

00:15:19.330 --> 00:15:21.450
You know, I'm closer to the end of my career

00:15:21.450 --> 00:15:23.769
than I am in the beginning. And seeing the younger

00:15:23.769 --> 00:15:26.289
guys and gals that are coming in in really good

00:15:26.289 --> 00:15:29.210
shape, you know, I know a couple of them that

00:15:29.210 --> 00:15:33.779
do CrossFit. on a regular basis. But just having

00:15:33.779 --> 00:15:37.200
the drive to stay physically fit and knowing

00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:39.200
that we do do a physically demanding job does

00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:42.039
help even on the long nights where maybe you

00:15:42.039 --> 00:15:44.179
only get an hour or a half hour sleep, but that

00:15:44.179 --> 00:15:47.399
allows your body to maintain some sort of good

00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:52.539
ability to respond on calls and stay aware. Absolutely.

00:15:53.179 --> 00:15:55.200
Well, you mentioned about how you entered, but

00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:57.120
prior to that, when you were in a school age,

00:15:57.279 --> 00:15:59.299
having this generational firefighter family,

00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:02.539
were you already dreaming of becoming a firefighter

00:16:02.539 --> 00:16:03.820
or was there something else you were thinking

00:16:03.820 --> 00:16:08.799
about? So not really. I was like your typical

00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:12.159
kid. I had different thoughts. Originally, I

00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:13.679
was looking at, believe it or not, being a physician.

00:16:14.990 --> 00:16:17.289
And then in high school, I was into some of the

00:16:17.289 --> 00:16:19.470
advanced classes and I got to a point where I

00:16:19.470 --> 00:16:22.690
really didn't like advanced math. Calculus stunk.

00:16:23.129 --> 00:16:25.769
Some of the harder sciences were just not my

00:16:25.769 --> 00:16:28.070
thing. And I started looking at alternatives.

00:16:29.350 --> 00:16:33.730
And then obviously being with my father, my grandfather,

00:16:34.009 --> 00:16:38.919
I got to go on a few calls. here or there when

00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:41.000
they were when my father was off duty and just

00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:42.700
kind of watch from a distance. But that kind

00:16:42.700 --> 00:16:45.399
of really is what finalized the drive to get

00:16:45.399 --> 00:16:48.860
into the fire service. And of course, I was actually

00:16:48.860 --> 00:16:51.700
a senior when 9 -11 happened. So if I wasn't

00:16:51.700 --> 00:16:54.220
100 percent, I was 100 percent after that. So

00:16:54.220 --> 00:16:58.539
that kind of sealed the deal. And then, you know,

00:16:58.539 --> 00:17:02.139
the rest is history from there. You mentioned

00:17:02.139 --> 00:17:04.319
about going on calls with your father and grandfather.

00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:06.380
When you reflect back now, and we're going to

00:17:06.380 --> 00:17:10.380
dive into first responder mental health, with

00:17:10.380 --> 00:17:13.519
this kind of veteran lens that you have, were

00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:17.559
there any signs of either of those two generations

00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:19.920
concealing some of their own struggles, if any

00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:23.900
at all? My grandfather, I didn't notice any.

00:17:25.220 --> 00:17:28.940
Now, yes, I do notice a little bit with my dad.

00:17:30.339 --> 00:17:35.440
And the signs I see are knowing what I know now

00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:41.859
are definitely there. And I was almost to that

00:17:41.859 --> 00:17:45.380
point for a while. Like I was not doing anything

00:17:45.380 --> 00:17:49.460
to better myself mentally with what we were seeing.

00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:53.799
And when I started my career, talking about runs

00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:56.599
was not a thing. Like you came back and you brushed

00:17:56.599 --> 00:17:58.819
it off and went to the next call. And that's

00:17:58.819 --> 00:18:00.579
what I grew up with. That's what I grew up around

00:18:00.579 --> 00:18:04.240
and seeing a lot of. Never really heard neither

00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:06.700
my father or my grandfather talk about work much.

00:18:08.819 --> 00:18:14.319
It was definitely a I went to work, I came home

00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:18.640
environment. Grandpa had been retired for a few

00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:21.480
years before I was born. So, I mean, there was

00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:23.220
a little bit of a time lapse, but the very few

00:18:23.220 --> 00:18:25.759
things he talked about were just in some of his

00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:28.250
old picture albums he had. And other than that,

00:18:28.289 --> 00:18:31.329
I never heard much. Dad was kind of the same

00:18:31.329 --> 00:18:35.430
way. I never heard much about days at work. Other

00:18:35.430 --> 00:18:37.589
than a few times I would go, you know, maybe

00:18:37.589 --> 00:18:42.170
get to go to the station or a couple of times

00:18:42.170 --> 00:18:44.089
I had actually got to ride with him on a call.

00:18:44.890 --> 00:18:47.250
I didn't hear much or got to see that side of

00:18:47.250 --> 00:18:51.130
it. So it was definitely more of a less talk

00:18:51.130 --> 00:18:55.430
environment back then. What year did you get

00:18:55.430 --> 00:18:58.720
hired? So I got hired in the fire service in

00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:03.019
2005, but actually started two years prior in

00:19:03.019 --> 00:19:06.359
the EMS side as an EMT, then a paramedic before

00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:08.619
I got in the fire service. So let's go to that

00:19:08.619 --> 00:19:10.539
first, because I want to get your perspective

00:19:10.539 --> 00:19:12.700
on how competitive it was. But before we even

00:19:12.700 --> 00:19:15.339
do that, walk me through. You're very young.

00:19:15.539 --> 00:19:18.599
Now you're exposed to the EMS world. What was

00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:22.460
some of the career calls or impactful moments

00:19:22.460 --> 00:19:27.319
that you remember from that? So I worked private

00:19:27.319 --> 00:19:33.220
EMS my first year and a half or so. So a lot

00:19:33.220 --> 00:19:35.640
of nursing home calls, a few 911 calls to assist.

00:19:36.079 --> 00:19:41.619
The Toledo area was a very weird setup. They

00:19:41.619 --> 00:19:45.359
had a countywide EMS system, but also certain

00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:48.380
cities and towns had their own EMS. So like you

00:19:48.380 --> 00:19:51.579
would get dispatched, you'd hear a life squad,

00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:54.309
a county life squad get dispatched. But they

00:19:54.309 --> 00:19:56.450
could be canceled, especially in the state of

00:19:56.450 --> 00:19:59.589
Toledo, if it wasn't deemed a true ALS event.

00:19:59.849 --> 00:20:01.609
And then they would call for a private EMS ambulance.

00:20:01.869 --> 00:20:04.589
So we were responding on calls with Toledo Fire

00:20:04.589 --> 00:20:08.730
a lot. And then sometimes in the outlying areas

00:20:08.730 --> 00:20:14.309
as well. Definitely seen a few calls. Probably

00:20:14.309 --> 00:20:18.450
the one that sticks with me the most during that

00:20:18.450 --> 00:20:23.039
time frame was a male that was down. We were

00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:25.000
actually considered a life squad for the county.

00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:28.900
We had a dual medic crew that day. We got down

00:20:28.900 --> 00:20:31.220
there, and it was actually a hypothermic male

00:20:31.220 --> 00:20:33.779
that was also hypoglycemic at the same time.

00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:36.579
The nice thing about the Toledo area is you're

00:20:36.579 --> 00:20:38.900
three to five minutes from any hospital, but

00:20:38.900 --> 00:20:40.579
we were able to get him in the truck, start getting

00:20:40.579 --> 00:20:42.680
him warmed up, get him some dextrose, and then

00:20:42.680 --> 00:20:45.980
get him to the hospital quickly, which ultimately

00:20:45.980 --> 00:20:51.000
turned out for a great outcome. Beautiful. Well,

00:20:51.059 --> 00:20:53.200
we basically got hired around the same time.

00:20:53.259 --> 00:20:56.640
I got hired in 2004. How competitive was it back

00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.220
then? And then compare that to now, if there's

00:21:00.220 --> 00:21:04.539
been any change. So back then, it's what I call

00:21:04.539 --> 00:21:07.279
the post 9 -11 era. Especially in the Toledo

00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:11.740
area, there was not many jobs at all. And they

00:21:11.740 --> 00:21:13.480
were very competitive for the few there were.

00:21:13.740 --> 00:21:18.240
The last test I had some knowledge of was...

00:21:20.010 --> 00:21:22.930
2010, and I think they had close to 5 ,000 or

00:21:22.930 --> 00:21:27.930
6 ,000 applicants at that time. When I got hired,

00:21:28.089 --> 00:21:30.730
if I wanted to go anywhere big, the two best

00:21:30.730 --> 00:21:35.069
options were Detroit or outside the state of

00:21:35.069 --> 00:21:38.849
Ohio. I actually got hired by a smaller city

00:21:38.849 --> 00:21:44.509
in 2005, and back then there was 60 or so candidates

00:21:44.509 --> 00:21:49.420
for two spots. Today, Where I'm currently at

00:21:49.420 --> 00:21:52.359
in the city I'm currently in now, there's probably,

00:21:52.660 --> 00:21:57.880
I'm guessing we were like 30 applicants for four

00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:01.740
spots. So it's definitely a switch where there's

00:22:01.740 --> 00:22:04.740
definitely more of a hiring need versus a hiring

00:22:04.740 --> 00:22:07.299
pool. Yeah, absolutely. Which again, I mean,

00:22:07.319 --> 00:22:09.039
I've talked about this many times on here. It's

00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:12.519
about the kind of person that you get. Firstly,

00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:15.099
like you said, what is attracting us to the fire

00:22:15.099 --> 00:22:16.839
service in the first place? So what kind of people

00:22:16.839 --> 00:22:18.960
are even... thinking about this profession but

00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:21.559
also then what percentage of that list are you

00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:25.059
taking versus 10 15 20 years ago it's not just

00:22:25.059 --> 00:22:27.319
18 and a heartbeat not everyone is the right

00:22:27.319 --> 00:22:31.640
fit for this job absolutely um i was 21 when

00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:35.140
i got hired um when i left the department i was

00:22:35.140 --> 00:22:37.980
at and went to my current department we had a

00:22:37.980 --> 00:22:40.410
few guys that were hired in that were in that

00:22:40.410 --> 00:22:43.809
18, 19, 20 year range. They were coming out of

00:22:43.809 --> 00:22:46.130
high school with their certifications, except

00:22:46.130 --> 00:22:47.690
for their paramedic cards. So they'd have their

00:22:47.690 --> 00:22:51.309
EMT and their Ohio fire level two right out of

00:22:51.309 --> 00:22:53.369
high school. So we were getting them straight

00:22:53.369 --> 00:22:56.930
out of high school. So there's definitely, it's

00:22:56.930 --> 00:22:58.750
an advantage and a disadvantage. It's an advantage

00:22:58.750 --> 00:23:00.430
for the cities getting the candidates coming

00:23:00.430 --> 00:23:04.809
out of school. To me, you know, there's a lot,

00:23:04.910 --> 00:23:06.769
I think you've said it and I know a few others

00:23:06.769 --> 00:23:11.710
have talked about it. 18 -year -old men and women

00:23:11.710 --> 00:23:15.630
are not, in my eyes, are not 100 % ready to see

00:23:15.630 --> 00:23:17.690
sometimes what we see. You're still developing.

00:23:17.849 --> 00:23:22.809
You're still young. I started when I was 20 -ish,

00:23:22.869 --> 00:23:25.369
right about 20 is when I first got in. And I

00:23:25.369 --> 00:23:27.849
can tell you that some of the stuff you see,

00:23:27.910 --> 00:23:34.750
you are not ready to see. And the other downfall

00:23:34.750 --> 00:23:37.289
is, so with the state of Ohio, when I got hired

00:23:37.289 --> 00:23:39.660
in, you have to do 25 years of service with a

00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:43.660
minimum age of 48. Now it's 25 years and a minimum

00:23:43.660 --> 00:23:47.279
age of 52. So when you're getting hired in, you're

00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:52.519
working 35 years just to retire. Yeah. 34, 35.

00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:55.519
Absolutely. And I think, again, it's not even

00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:57.960
opinions. This is the world of neuroscience.

00:23:58.279 --> 00:24:01.319
They have said the brain does not stop developing

00:24:01.319 --> 00:24:04.819
until, actually, I think it's mid -20s. So to

00:24:04.819 --> 00:24:08.109
take a... person out of high school and pd does

00:24:08.109 --> 00:24:11.930
21 so we you know our brothers in blue do you

00:24:11.930 --> 00:24:13.809
know they don't hire 18 year olds and i'm sure

00:24:13.809 --> 00:24:16.329
it's for the same reason um you know i think

00:24:16.329 --> 00:24:18.890
that when we go back to this high demand of of

00:24:18.890 --> 00:24:21.750
staffing that we will see when we start changing

00:24:21.750 --> 00:24:24.529
things i think you will be able then to say yeah

00:24:24.529 --> 00:24:26.750
at 21 years old absolutely you know we've got

00:24:26.750 --> 00:24:28.829
some mentor programs we've got explorers and

00:24:28.829 --> 00:24:31.789
but yeah go go learn a trade you know whatever

00:24:31.789 --> 00:24:34.740
the other things are And when you are 21, you

00:24:34.740 --> 00:24:36.920
know, we'll mentor you up to that point, then

00:24:36.920 --> 00:24:39.460
absolutely. But I think of some of the first

00:24:39.460 --> 00:24:41.859
calls I had in my first department, and I was

00:24:41.859 --> 00:24:44.480
lucky. I think I was 27 when I got hired, if

00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:49.220
I got that right, 27, 28. So, you know, my tiny

00:24:49.220 --> 00:24:50.859
little brain at least had been given a chance

00:24:50.859 --> 00:24:54.000
to mature. But I can't imagine 18 -year -old

00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:56.440
James seeing some of the stuff that I saw. You

00:24:56.440 --> 00:24:58.019
know, would I be able to deal with it back then?

00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:01.900
I don't know. Where I currently work, we have

00:25:01.900 --> 00:25:04.130
– a decent amount of part -time staff. And a

00:25:04.130 --> 00:25:07.829
lot of them are anywhere from 19 to, you know,

00:25:07.829 --> 00:25:12.430
we'll say 30, somewhere in that range. And part

00:25:12.430 --> 00:25:14.490
of what I do with the department is the peer

00:25:14.490 --> 00:25:18.130
support team is for me is especially just talk

00:25:18.130 --> 00:25:19.890
to them. Hey, if you have a bad call, you know,

00:25:19.910 --> 00:25:23.029
don't just get ahold of somebody, say something

00:25:23.029 --> 00:25:25.369
to your partner, whatever, talk it out. Because

00:25:25.369 --> 00:25:28.210
knowing that your brain is not ready to see that.

00:25:28.519 --> 00:25:30.099
And knowing that maybe you don't know how to

00:25:30.099 --> 00:25:32.640
process that correctly. You know, you want them

00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:34.740
to be able to at least have the availability

00:25:34.740 --> 00:25:36.660
of the options to help them, whether it's talking

00:25:36.660 --> 00:25:39.140
to a coworker or getting them other help if need

00:25:39.140 --> 00:25:43.019
be to process what they're seeing. But you definitely

00:25:43.019 --> 00:25:47.779
can see that with our careers, it does take a

00:25:47.779 --> 00:25:50.819
toll on you over time. And the longer you're

00:25:50.819 --> 00:25:53.299
in, the younger you are and the longer you're

00:25:53.299 --> 00:25:56.240
in, you know, that's going to just compound that

00:25:56.240 --> 00:25:59.869
even more. I think if I remember the statistic

00:25:59.869 --> 00:26:02.650
correctly, it's the average person sees one of

00:26:02.650 --> 00:26:04.309
the two traumatic events in their whole life.

00:26:04.430 --> 00:26:08.069
And we see a hundred times that in our career.

00:26:08.829 --> 00:26:12.069
And that's a lot, especially when you're starting

00:26:12.069 --> 00:26:14.829
at a younger age. You know, I grew up around

00:26:14.829 --> 00:26:17.650
it and I still, to this day, don't think I was

00:26:17.650 --> 00:26:19.410
ready to see some of the stuff we were seeing,

00:26:19.490 --> 00:26:21.690
even though I'm sure you felt the same way when

00:26:21.690 --> 00:26:23.589
you got into the job. It's like, heck yeah, I'm

00:26:23.589 --> 00:26:26.250
ready to go. A hundred percent. You're constantly

00:26:26.250 --> 00:26:30.289
on excited. You just don't realize how much it

00:26:30.289 --> 00:26:34.569
takes on you as a person. Yeah. I had a really

00:26:34.569 --> 00:26:36.849
interesting experience not long ago. I've told

00:26:36.849 --> 00:26:39.289
this story a few times on here. But when I was

00:26:39.289 --> 00:26:41.849
little, I was in a house fire when I was four.

00:26:42.009 --> 00:26:44.589
I had a wall almost kill us when I think I was

00:26:44.589 --> 00:26:47.309
about 11. Horrible parents divorced. But like

00:26:47.309 --> 00:26:50.210
I've said many times on here, equally and oppositely,

00:26:50.369 --> 00:26:53.170
there were so many healing elements that I think.

00:26:53.609 --> 00:26:55.470
And that did a lot of good. But when, you know,

00:26:55.490 --> 00:26:58.450
I was a son of a vet, so I was around gore and

00:26:58.450 --> 00:27:00.970
death and all kinds of stuff. But these are obviously

00:27:00.970 --> 00:27:03.490
in animals. So I had that and I had a kitchen

00:27:03.490 --> 00:27:05.450
table. I was one of five kids. And, you know,

00:27:05.450 --> 00:27:06.970
so there was a lot of things that mirrored the

00:27:06.970 --> 00:27:10.769
fire service. So then, excuse me, you know, you

00:27:10.769 --> 00:27:12.309
go into the fire service. It's kind of like you

00:27:12.309 --> 00:27:14.410
said, it's not even so much like anyone told

00:27:14.410 --> 00:27:16.390
me, oh, we don't talk about it. You just didn't

00:27:16.390 --> 00:27:18.670
talk about it. You just, you know, you thought

00:27:18.670 --> 00:27:20.289
this is it. You just go to the call. You close

00:27:20.289 --> 00:27:22.150
the call. You go eat dinner. You know, this is

00:27:22.150 --> 00:27:25.170
just the way it works. But when I transitioned

00:27:25.170 --> 00:27:28.670
out, I worked a code on a plane about literally

00:27:28.670 --> 00:27:32.250
about a year and a half ago now. And, you know,

00:27:32.269 --> 00:27:34.390
I'm the freaking Reaper when it comes to codes.

00:27:34.430 --> 00:27:36.509
If you're in cardiac arrest and I'm your medic,

00:27:36.589 --> 00:27:39.289
you are screwed. And so the same thing happened,

00:27:39.390 --> 00:27:40.990
you know, and again, I've said this on here a

00:27:40.990 --> 00:27:43.690
few times. I keep seeing these stories. Our person

00:27:43.690 --> 00:27:46.049
had chest pain on plane and there was a, you

00:27:46.049 --> 00:27:48.049
know, conference of cardiologists that happened

00:27:48.049 --> 00:27:50.759
to be returning home. No. I went there and these

00:27:50.759 --> 00:27:53.359
poor people, no one had any pre -hospital experience.

00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:56.720
The stewards and stewardesses were trained in

00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:59.519
the AOA and the AED. And then there's a couple

00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:03.099
of bystanders that knew CPR. So work this code.

00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:06.279
Very long story short, the London fire came on.

00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:08.059
We dragged them to the galley, kept working them.

00:28:08.099 --> 00:28:10.539
Then London ambulance came on. And then ultimately

00:28:10.539 --> 00:28:12.700
I stepped away, you know, because I've been on

00:28:12.700 --> 00:28:15.470
the chest now for a while. And instead of going

00:28:15.470 --> 00:28:18.769
back to my rig and helping clean up the stretcher

00:28:18.769 --> 00:28:20.710
and then talking to the doctor about, hey, you

00:28:20.710 --> 00:28:21.950
know, what do you think? What was the outcome,

00:28:22.109 --> 00:28:24.809
et cetera? I just went to the plain bathroom,

00:28:24.970 --> 00:28:26.769
washed the blood off my hands and then took a

00:28:26.769 --> 00:28:31.269
seat. And I had this like, oh, feeling and I'm

00:28:31.269 --> 00:28:33.579
like, what is wrong with me? And then I realized

00:28:33.579 --> 00:28:35.740
to your point, it's not what's wrong with me.

00:28:35.779 --> 00:28:37.700
It's what's right with me. This is how you are

00:28:37.700 --> 00:28:40.180
supposed to feel when out of nowhere, someone

00:28:40.180 --> 00:28:42.599
has a cardiac arrest and you fight to save that

00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:44.660
person's life. And then, oh, it happened again.

00:28:44.740 --> 00:28:48.440
They still die. This is a normal reaction. So

00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:52.259
we do get so blunted to that, that, you know,

00:28:52.259 --> 00:28:55.440
how we're supposed to feel gets lost in what

00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:59.059
people tell us we're supposed to feel. Absolutely.

00:29:00.500 --> 00:29:04.730
You know, that whole mindset of, we don't talk

00:29:04.730 --> 00:29:07.150
about it. We're tough. You know, that it was

00:29:07.150 --> 00:29:08.750
there for a long time. Like there's nobody ever

00:29:08.750 --> 00:29:10.730
said anything. You would get back. Like you said,

00:29:10.809 --> 00:29:13.769
you'd eat dinner, sit down, go about your day.

00:29:14.349 --> 00:29:18.769
I think that environment's kind of changing its

00:29:18.769 --> 00:29:22.210
way. Not even so much on the, let's just talk

00:29:22.210 --> 00:29:24.970
about the call. It's more of a, Hey, let's talk

00:29:24.970 --> 00:29:26.710
about how things went right. How things went

00:29:26.710 --> 00:29:29.289
wrong. was there anything we could have done

00:29:29.289 --> 00:29:31.509
any better on the process while you're doing

00:29:31.509 --> 00:29:33.829
that you're actually processing the call you

00:29:33.829 --> 00:29:36.349
don't realize it and that's my take on it is

00:29:36.349 --> 00:29:38.490
you don't realize when you're actually doing

00:29:38.490 --> 00:29:41.710
a debrief on with your partner or partners on

00:29:41.710 --> 00:29:43.990
how you think that call went or even your crew

00:29:43.990 --> 00:29:46.470
is that you're actually processing part of that

00:29:46.470 --> 00:29:50.769
call as well um we just recently had a code last

00:29:50.769 --> 00:29:54.549
week and it just had to be we took three because

00:29:54.549 --> 00:29:58.210
she was critical and she coded on us and when

00:29:58.210 --> 00:30:02.509
we got done we talked about i'm like man i forgot

00:30:02.509 --> 00:30:07.829
how much fun slash how taxing it is to do with

00:30:07.829 --> 00:30:10.470
two people you know in the in the back doing

00:30:10.470 --> 00:30:14.390
everything with just two people and it adds an

00:30:14.390 --> 00:30:18.109
element of a challenge but also you know you

00:30:18.109 --> 00:30:20.329
have a life in your hands you got 10 minute transport

00:30:20.329 --> 00:30:24.190
time you're trying to give the best outcome you

00:30:24.190 --> 00:30:28.180
can you get a heartbeat back um Kind of that

00:30:28.180 --> 00:30:31.660
whole spectrum. And then the patient ultimately

00:30:31.660 --> 00:30:36.160
dies. But when you talk about it, hey, you know,

00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:37.440
is there anything we could have done different?

00:30:37.619 --> 00:30:41.000
Or, you know, what do we do right? Which is usually

00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:42.279
the high part. What do we do right? What do we

00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:43.859
do wrong? Or if we did anything wrong, is there

00:30:43.859 --> 00:30:44.779
anything we could have done different? Meaning,

00:30:44.839 --> 00:30:47.039
did we get, you know, could we, our timeframes

00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:48.400
could have been better? Could our compressions

00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:51.339
have been better? But I think a lot of it, too,

00:30:51.420 --> 00:30:53.940
is technology as well. We were able to get this

00:30:53.940 --> 00:30:59.410
patient on a Lucas within seconds. So the compressions

00:30:59.410 --> 00:31:04.990
with devices make things a lot easier. And we

00:31:04.990 --> 00:31:07.269
had a great positive mindset coming out of it.

00:31:07.509 --> 00:31:09.509
You know, we talked about the call as a crew

00:31:09.509 --> 00:31:13.410
and then, you know, actually got back and our

00:31:13.410 --> 00:31:16.490
other two people that were on the engine, that

00:31:16.490 --> 00:31:20.069
crew that had went back to the station, we all

00:31:20.069 --> 00:31:22.690
talked as a group as well. And, you know, kind

00:31:22.690 --> 00:31:25.650
of the same debrief. And I think with those debriefings

00:31:25.650 --> 00:31:33.730
during calls, you tend to off -process the information

00:31:33.730 --> 00:31:37.210
that your body maybe would have hidden. And I

00:31:37.210 --> 00:31:39.730
know for me, talking about it, definitely takes

00:31:39.730 --> 00:31:41.509
that little bit of weight off of your chest and

00:31:41.509 --> 00:31:44.789
off your shoulders. Whether, you know, in this

00:31:44.789 --> 00:31:49.130
case, it was a good outcome initially that ultimately,

00:31:49.250 --> 00:31:53.250
like your patient, my patient passed away. But

00:31:53.250 --> 00:31:58.809
you're able to just process that through. It's

00:31:58.809 --> 00:32:01.089
interesting because when you talk about that

00:32:01.089 --> 00:32:04.890
kind of conversation, it requires humility. And

00:32:04.890 --> 00:32:07.009
I've been on departments that were really good

00:32:07.009 --> 00:32:09.750
or crews that were really good at what went right,

00:32:09.789 --> 00:32:11.769
what went wrong. And I used to love it because

00:32:11.769 --> 00:32:15.769
nothing goes right. I mean, I think. People think

00:32:15.769 --> 00:32:19.210
that when you do these orchestrated hose pulls

00:32:19.210 --> 00:32:21.329
and ladder throws at the academy, like, oh, this

00:32:21.329 --> 00:32:23.009
is what the fire is going to be like. No, it's

00:32:23.009 --> 00:32:25.529
an absolute shit show. You're just hoping that

00:32:25.529 --> 00:32:27.509
you can whack -a -mole your way into actually

00:32:27.509 --> 00:32:29.990
all these skills that you learn applying to this

00:32:29.990 --> 00:32:33.529
organized chaos that is a structure fire. I wrote

00:32:33.529 --> 00:32:37.190
about this in, I think, my first book. For example,

00:32:37.190 --> 00:32:38.970
we went to one house, and it was a tweaker house,

00:32:39.089 --> 00:32:41.690
and the guy had tiled his driveway with slick

00:32:41.690 --> 00:32:44.940
bathroom tile. So the moment water flowed, every

00:32:44.940 --> 00:32:47.839
man and his dog was fricking slipping over. Okay.

00:32:47.900 --> 00:32:50.220
So now, you know, now you still got to do the

00:32:50.220 --> 00:32:51.700
same things, but now you've got a completely

00:32:51.700 --> 00:32:53.259
different dynamic. You've got the pack rat house

00:32:53.259 --> 00:32:57.079
example. So, you know, learning from each and

00:32:57.079 --> 00:32:59.420
every one, I think is really important. And also

00:32:59.420 --> 00:33:01.859
it then kind of shirks some of the guilt. If

00:33:01.859 --> 00:33:03.539
you and you keeping it to yourself, like, oh,

00:33:03.559 --> 00:33:05.720
I think I, you know, I didn't push that drug

00:33:05.720 --> 00:33:09.099
fast enough or da da da. When you start critiquing

00:33:09.099 --> 00:33:11.299
it, you realize, okay, no, no, we did do as best

00:33:11.299 --> 00:33:13.680
we could. That was. It was the fact that the

00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:16.059
person was a quadriplegic for 30 years that meant

00:33:16.059 --> 00:33:18.460
I couldn't do the compressions. And then you

00:33:18.460 --> 00:33:21.019
start unpacking that as well. But it takes humility.

00:33:21.700 --> 00:33:24.660
And if you are an arrogant paramedic or firefighter,

00:33:24.660 --> 00:33:27.240
you won't have those conversations because you're

00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:29.640
telling yourself that either A, it was everyone

00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:32.359
else's fault, or B, that everything just went

00:33:32.359 --> 00:33:34.660
perfectly. And so when you hear these, oh, well,

00:33:34.680 --> 00:33:36.900
if no one died, it was a good call. No one got

00:33:36.900 --> 00:33:39.710
hurt, like bullshit. Like, how can we make this

00:33:39.710 --> 00:33:42.450
better? You know, can we actually, you know,

00:33:42.450 --> 00:33:44.450
be even better on the compressions? You know,

00:33:44.450 --> 00:33:46.890
did you get stuck drawing up that drug? What

00:33:46.890 --> 00:33:48.569
went wrong? Why was there a vacuum? Whatever

00:33:48.569 --> 00:33:51.470
the thing is, just so you can next time not repeat

00:33:51.470 --> 00:33:53.809
the same mistake. And as you mentioned, then

00:33:53.809 --> 00:33:56.809
the beautiful byproduct is 100 % that you are

00:33:56.809 --> 00:33:59.589
also processing this. The same way as we said

00:33:59.589 --> 00:34:02.569
meditation is for mental health and peak performance,

00:34:02.930 --> 00:34:05.750
it's the same with this. You're improving your...

00:34:06.470 --> 00:34:08.570
skills as a firefighter while simultaneously

00:34:08.570 --> 00:34:11.349
subconsciously offloading some of the trauma

00:34:11.349 --> 00:34:16.670
yeah um and it kind of goes back to i had a uh

00:34:16.670 --> 00:34:18.949
friend of mine that i worked with for a long

00:34:18.949 --> 00:34:23.250
time and uh it was a fire instructor for many

00:34:23.250 --> 00:34:26.269
years like i said learn from every call you know

00:34:26.269 --> 00:34:29.230
um not every call is going to go your way not

00:34:29.230 --> 00:34:32.190
every call is going to be the same um you'll

00:34:32.190 --> 00:34:34.269
go on the same situation but you won't have the

00:34:34.269 --> 00:34:39.309
same presentation And if you can have the humility

00:34:39.309 --> 00:34:42.309
to be able to say, you know, was there anything

00:34:42.309 --> 00:34:45.429
else we could have done better? You know, that

00:34:45.429 --> 00:34:50.869
really seems to be the, that line, like you said,

00:34:50.889 --> 00:34:53.010
between an arrogant person and not, you know,

00:34:53.010 --> 00:34:54.949
oh, I'm just a hundred percent great at this

00:34:54.949 --> 00:34:58.630
versus I just want to improve. And that line

00:34:58.630 --> 00:35:01.489
is that fine line too, I think plays into as

00:35:01.489 --> 00:35:06.059
well to the development of you as a, firefighter,

00:35:06.059 --> 00:35:11.079
medic, and as a person. I know with the crews

00:35:11.079 --> 00:35:15.519
I work with that we tend to discuss more because

00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:17.579
not all the time that we have the same crew.

00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:19.199
We have the same full -time crew, but not always

00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:22.980
the same part -time crew. We tend to have more

00:35:22.980 --> 00:35:26.480
than discussions. And my favorite one of the

00:35:26.480 --> 00:35:29.780
day is where are the first in bags going? Because

00:35:29.780 --> 00:35:32.260
we have a backpack stop first in bag and I like

00:35:32.260 --> 00:35:34.590
it by the side door. Some people like it on the

00:35:34.590 --> 00:35:36.730
car and just having that moment to say, hey,

00:35:36.829 --> 00:35:38.989
let's set up for success today because this is

00:35:38.989 --> 00:35:41.050
where, you know, this is where the equipment

00:35:41.050 --> 00:35:43.989
will be. It's no different that and with a fire.

00:35:44.269 --> 00:35:46.389
Hey, you know, you're sitting in this seat today.

00:35:46.469 --> 00:35:48.530
So your role is this. You're the nozzleman. You're

00:35:48.530 --> 00:35:51.650
the irons guy. You know, as a pump operator,

00:35:51.949 --> 00:35:55.329
a lot when I'm on the engine, you know, not only

00:35:55.329 --> 00:35:57.469
do I have my job to worry about as a pump operator,

00:35:57.670 --> 00:36:00.730
but also, you know, I'm also assisting with the

00:36:00.730 --> 00:36:02.760
deployment of a hose line. getting my own water

00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:05.880
supply we don't we have second arriving apparatus

00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:09.320
but they might be seven eight minutes away so

00:36:09.320 --> 00:36:13.380
i may be in that dual role where i'm doing one

00:36:13.380 --> 00:36:15.300
thing but assisting the crew with getting their

00:36:15.300 --> 00:36:17.739
line in play getting a second line to the door

00:36:17.739 --> 00:36:22.420
whatever it might be at the same time of you

00:36:22.420 --> 00:36:25.400
know doing my initial job and just knowing that

00:36:25.400 --> 00:36:28.739
whether it's in the fire side or ems side knowing

00:36:28.739 --> 00:36:31.079
that role by having the discussions as a crew

00:36:31.820 --> 00:36:34.960
to understand how you want to work your calls

00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:37.300
as you go on them just seems to really help.

00:36:37.420 --> 00:36:40.860
It makes a good positive impact. It gives some

00:36:40.860 --> 00:36:45.659
direction. And I think, especially with the younger

00:36:45.659 --> 00:36:49.099
people that we're seeing in our job now, that

00:36:49.099 --> 00:36:52.780
giving them that direction, that gives them their

00:36:52.780 --> 00:36:58.139
sense of purpose to learn and develop so the

00:36:58.139 --> 00:36:59.920
next time they come in, the next shift they come

00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:01.940
in, They're asking that question, hey, am I in

00:37:01.940 --> 00:37:04.280
this spot today or am I in this spot? And then

00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:05.960
they start asking, hey, how do you want this

00:37:05.960 --> 00:37:11.920
set up? Or if I'm the irons today, do you want

00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:14.599
me to go straight to the door? Do you want me

00:37:14.599 --> 00:37:16.360
to take one in with me when we go within the

00:37:16.360 --> 00:37:17.940
hose line? They ask the other questions that

00:37:17.940 --> 00:37:21.760
some of us just do on our own. And I think that

00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:23.820
really makes for a great crew dynamic as well.

00:37:24.300 --> 00:37:27.320
Yeah, no, absolutely. I remember one of my friends

00:37:27.320 --> 00:37:31.199
who was a Delta operator said, If you want to

00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:34.039
see imposter syndrome, go to a Delta team room.

00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:36.800
Now, these are the most elite soldiers we have,

00:37:36.900 --> 00:37:38.940
arguably in the military, certainly on land.

00:37:39.719 --> 00:37:41.679
And you're saying that the imposter syndrome

00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:43.400
is strong. But I was just thinking when you were

00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:47.000
talking, I think, I mean, it can be perceived

00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:52.059
as a negative element. But ultimately, if you

00:37:52.059 --> 00:37:54.840
are a humble first responder, especially if you

00:37:54.840 --> 00:37:58.710
do fire an EMS, there's such a massive. skill

00:37:58.710 --> 00:38:02.449
set that you've got to be on top of looking at

00:38:02.449 --> 00:38:04.750
it, not so much as, as imposter and allowing

00:38:04.750 --> 00:38:08.570
that to come in, but the fear of what if, you

00:38:08.570 --> 00:38:10.070
know, and I think that's what always kept me

00:38:10.070 --> 00:38:12.210
going after 14 years, which isn't long compared

00:38:12.210 --> 00:38:15.289
to a lot of people's careers. I was still very

00:38:15.289 --> 00:38:18.369
anxious in a good way about, you know, am I going

00:38:18.369 --> 00:38:20.260
to. evaluate this patient, right? Am I going

00:38:20.260 --> 00:38:21.960
to push the right drugs? Am I going to be intubate?

00:38:22.019 --> 00:38:23.880
Am I going to be able to take the door? You know,

00:38:23.880 --> 00:38:26.340
all these things. And you go on scene and you're

00:38:26.340 --> 00:38:29.300
okay, but it's that anxiety that causes you to

00:38:29.300 --> 00:38:31.599
keep training, to stay fit, to study, to take

00:38:31.599 --> 00:38:35.119
extra classes. Whereas that arrogance that we

00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:38.840
see in some people, it's the opposite. And they're

00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:40.840
walking around and beating their chest and belittling

00:38:40.840 --> 00:38:43.559
the probies. And then they're the ones usually

00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:45.340
that, you know, chicken with your head cut off

00:38:45.340 --> 00:38:47.869
when you're on the fire scene. Because you don't

00:38:47.869 --> 00:38:50.489
have that. So I think that that anxiety can be

00:38:50.489 --> 00:38:54.090
really tempered in a good way and keep you on

00:38:54.090 --> 00:38:56.750
your toes. Because at 30 years old, a 30 year

00:38:56.750 --> 00:39:00.570
veteran that's a humble firefighter will still

00:39:00.570 --> 00:39:03.030
be learning. And if someone can still be the

00:39:03.030 --> 00:39:06.090
student of 30 years, then you sure as shit better

00:39:06.090 --> 00:39:09.150
be when you're only five years in. Absolutely.

00:39:09.389 --> 00:39:14.579
One of my favorite things to see is. Like the

00:39:14.579 --> 00:39:17.059
first day of a new firefighter getting on the

00:39:17.059 --> 00:39:20.460
rig, when they ask the famous question, so what

00:39:20.460 --> 00:39:23.840
do I do? You know, this is your job. You know,

00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:25.719
usually where do we put them? On the nozzle.

00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:27.800
Your job is to get the line off and the line

00:39:27.800 --> 00:39:30.039
to the door, leave the line. You know, you're

00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:31.980
going to make entry in the nozzle, right? Don't

00:39:31.980 --> 00:39:34.619
lose it. Don't give it up. Yeah, don't lose it.

00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:38.119
Don't give it up. Sit on it. And then it's usually

00:39:38.119 --> 00:39:41.079
followed up with like, but I don't want to screw

00:39:41.079 --> 00:39:43.800
up. or something somewhat questionable on that

00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:46.920
line okay well then let's go through it we'll

00:39:46.920 --> 00:39:48.539
talk about it if you want to deploy a line let's

00:39:48.539 --> 00:39:51.039
deploy a line we'll talk about it you know we'll

00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:53.119
go through it with you so if that does happen

00:39:53.119 --> 00:39:56.179
today which we know unless you're in a bigger

00:39:56.179 --> 00:40:00.500
city nowadays fires becoming very low house fires

00:40:00.500 --> 00:40:03.219
are becoming very low as a event where our ems

00:40:03.219 --> 00:40:06.139
calls are through the roof now training is so

00:40:06.139 --> 00:40:10.329
important so now you do get that maybe We'll

00:40:10.329 --> 00:40:13.429
say once, six times a year, you get that fire.

00:40:13.570 --> 00:40:17.449
So that one and the sixth time, when you show

00:40:17.449 --> 00:40:19.309
up, you're already comfortable pulling that line

00:40:19.309 --> 00:40:20.789
and getting it to what you need. They're not

00:40:20.789 --> 00:40:23.190
worried about, am I going to screw this up because

00:40:23.190 --> 00:40:26.389
we've practiced it? And I think building that

00:40:26.389 --> 00:40:30.210
confidence really does help. And then even, you

00:40:30.210 --> 00:40:32.510
know, I pull lines all the time when I get the

00:40:32.510 --> 00:40:37.269
chance to. I don't mind. It's something that

00:40:37.269 --> 00:40:39.269
we need to do. It's still a diminishing skill.

00:40:39.630 --> 00:40:42.110
I don't care if you got 30 years on or one year

00:40:42.110 --> 00:40:43.969
on. It's a diminishing skill like everything

00:40:43.969 --> 00:40:46.250
else in this job. If you don't start an IV for

00:40:46.250 --> 00:40:48.030
six months, you're probably not going to do a

00:40:48.030 --> 00:40:50.130
really good job starting IVs for the next few

00:40:50.130 --> 00:40:53.010
months. So I think that has a lot to do with

00:40:53.010 --> 00:40:55.150
it and keeping a positive mindset. And that's

00:40:55.150 --> 00:40:57.429
really what I like that the department I'm at

00:40:57.429 --> 00:41:02.250
is everything we do, the chief tries to do is

00:41:02.250 --> 00:41:05.010
that positive outlook on, oh, you're training?

00:41:05.150 --> 00:41:07.590
Okay. I've been out training with the crews and

00:41:07.590 --> 00:41:10.079
the chief jumps in with the training. He's part

00:41:10.079 --> 00:41:11.880
of the crew. Put me in. What do you want me to

00:41:11.880 --> 00:41:15.440
do? What are we doing? That shows the younger

00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:18.659
personnel that, hey, here's our chief that wants

00:41:18.659 --> 00:41:20.980
to come out and train with us, wants to be part

00:41:20.980 --> 00:41:24.380
of it, that, hey, he's not just in the office

00:41:24.380 --> 00:41:27.800
doing his chief duties. He wants to come out

00:41:27.800 --> 00:41:30.579
and continue his learning as well. Yeah. Well,

00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:32.760
I mean, if you look at why we all signed up,

00:41:32.820 --> 00:41:34.579
like you said, you're post 9 -11 generation,

00:41:34.760 --> 00:41:37.099
so am I. It's because you want to make the world

00:41:37.099 --> 00:41:42.489
better. I would argue that someone who's the

00:41:42.489 --> 00:41:45.030
right fit to be the chief of a fire department

00:41:45.030 --> 00:41:47.849
still has that in them and would want every so

00:41:47.849 --> 00:41:49.610
often, you know, are you doing a fitness test

00:41:49.610 --> 00:41:52.130
today? All right, hold my beer. Let's do this.

00:41:52.170 --> 00:41:53.630
You know what I mean? And like you said, oh,

00:41:53.690 --> 00:41:55.610
we're throwing ladders. We're flowing. We're,

00:41:55.610 --> 00:41:57.949
you know, going to the flashover trailer. Yeah,

00:41:58.010 --> 00:41:59.789
absolutely. I want to come. Obviously, you can't

00:41:59.789 --> 00:42:01.230
do it all the time. But once in a while, you'd

00:42:01.230 --> 00:42:03.409
think that you would be like, you know, extrication,

00:42:03.449 --> 00:42:07.030
whatever. And it's funny because I actually remember

00:42:07.030 --> 00:42:10.750
the last place I worked. I put in for, they did

00:42:10.750 --> 00:42:12.389
offer some of the educational reimbursement.

00:42:12.409 --> 00:42:16.730
I put in for VMR, the operational one, and I

00:42:16.730 --> 00:42:20.590
already had it. And he's like, but the chief

00:42:20.590 --> 00:42:21.869
I was talking to was like, well, you already

00:42:21.869 --> 00:42:24.369
have this. Why are you doing it again? And I'm

00:42:24.369 --> 00:42:26.269
like, well, that fundamentally is the problem

00:42:26.269 --> 00:42:28.409
with the fire service. You're looking at like

00:42:28.409 --> 00:42:30.469
a box check -in. I'm looking at it as like, I've

00:42:30.469 --> 00:42:33.110
got, you know, at this point, what, 13, 12, 13

00:42:33.110 --> 00:42:37.380
years in. I want a week of solid tool time. so

00:42:37.380 --> 00:42:40.039
that I can re -up my skills. And the next extrication

00:42:40.039 --> 00:42:42.920
we get, I'm not like trying to remember, you

00:42:42.920 --> 00:42:44.099
know, because I mean, especially as you know,

00:42:44.139 --> 00:42:46.099
extrication, you don't get cars all the time.

00:42:46.119 --> 00:42:49.380
It's a skill that is more perishable. So instead

00:42:49.380 --> 00:42:52.059
I get a full week of cutting and clamshells and

00:42:52.059 --> 00:42:54.900
tunneling and all the things that we did. And

00:42:54.900 --> 00:42:57.800
now I'm, you know, I'm completely up on it again.

00:42:57.900 --> 00:43:00.059
And just like you said, with pulling hose, is

00:43:00.059 --> 00:43:03.559
pulling a cross lay hard? No, but it's about

00:43:03.559 --> 00:43:06.510
reps. It's about when was the last time you pulled

00:43:06.510 --> 00:43:08.630
a cross lay? When was the last time someone had

00:43:08.630 --> 00:43:10.449
spaghettied it when they folded it? And now you

00:43:10.449 --> 00:43:12.670
have to mitigate that. Those are the things.

00:43:12.710 --> 00:43:15.070
It's not about knowing how to do it. It's how

00:43:15.070 --> 00:43:21.710
recently did you do it? Absolutely. The more

00:43:21.710 --> 00:43:25.449
time you put in to doing the reps and whether

00:43:25.449 --> 00:43:28.670
it's you do it once a shift, some people are

00:43:28.670 --> 00:43:30.670
out there every shift, want to pull lines every

00:43:30.670 --> 00:43:32.800
shift. It doesn't have to be every shift. Just

00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:35.400
as long as you're comfortable, you know, I would

00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:40.099
say we're probably about once to maybe twice

00:43:40.099 --> 00:43:43.139
a month that we're doing multiple reps with just

00:43:43.139 --> 00:43:46.980
pulling lines. Then, you know, other days might

00:43:46.980 --> 00:43:51.719
be maybe we're doing search or we're going through

00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:56.269
scene size ups. One of the favorite things I

00:43:56.269 --> 00:43:58.949
do is the old front porch sitting out front in

00:43:58.949 --> 00:44:01.570
front of the apparatus bay and telling one of

00:44:01.570 --> 00:44:03.750
the young guys, hey, that house over there, what

00:44:03.750 --> 00:44:05.530
do you notice about those windows on the side?

00:44:05.750 --> 00:44:07.949
And he's looking and he's like, what do you mean?

00:44:08.510 --> 00:44:10.829
I said, what's that small one in between the

00:44:10.829 --> 00:44:14.849
two stories? And it just wasn't hitting it. That's

00:44:14.849 --> 00:44:16.869
an exterior stairwell on the inside of the house.

00:44:17.070 --> 00:44:19.809
That's the landing. So we went through that rep

00:44:19.809 --> 00:44:22.010
of, hey, when you pull up on scene as a firefighter,

00:44:22.010 --> 00:44:23.489
you should still be looking at these houses.

00:44:24.090 --> 00:44:26.389
Because that's your only way up to the second

00:44:26.389 --> 00:44:29.309
story unless you're going through a window. And

00:44:29.309 --> 00:44:31.250
those kind of reps, they can be something as

00:44:31.250 --> 00:44:33.570
simple as that. You know, hey, we're just driving

00:44:33.570 --> 00:44:36.090
down the road today. Let's talk about, let's

00:44:36.090 --> 00:44:37.349
stop in front of this house and say, hey, if

00:44:37.349 --> 00:44:39.409
there was a fire in that window, what would we

00:44:39.409 --> 00:44:42.550
do? What's our steps? You know, and then that

00:44:42.550 --> 00:44:45.030
also first goes back to, well, if you're on the

00:44:45.030 --> 00:44:47.250
ladder today, what's your job at this house?

00:44:47.650 --> 00:44:49.230
What are you going to do if you have a second

00:44:49.230 --> 00:44:50.769
story fire? Where's your ladders going to go?

00:44:50.809 --> 00:44:51.949
Where are you going to throw your first two?

00:44:52.670 --> 00:44:55.989
You know? That all comes into play and it doesn't

00:44:55.989 --> 00:44:58.909
have to be anything big. It can be tabletop.

00:44:58.929 --> 00:45:00.789
But as long as you're putting yourself through

00:45:00.789 --> 00:45:04.590
the reps, it seems like the more you do or the

00:45:04.590 --> 00:45:07.309
more involved you are with doing it, the easier

00:45:07.309 --> 00:45:10.710
it becomes to recall those little skills that

00:45:10.710 --> 00:45:16.929
you don't use very often. Like you, I would say

00:45:16.929 --> 00:45:21.409
in the last two years, I pulled tools off a truck

00:45:21.409 --> 00:45:26.079
on accident twice. you don't use them that often

00:45:26.079 --> 00:45:30.780
so it is a very much a diminishing skill it does

00:45:30.780 --> 00:45:33.019
come back pretty quickly but if you don't practice

00:45:33.019 --> 00:45:36.280
or at least get them out and focus on you know

00:45:36.280 --> 00:45:39.260
using them you know it makes it that much harder

00:45:39.260 --> 00:45:41.500
on scene because something as simple as is it

00:45:41.500 --> 00:45:44.480
left or right to open your spreaders makes a

00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:47.320
big difference you know cutters open spreaders

00:45:47.320 --> 00:45:50.780
closed when you get up to a car is important

00:45:50.780 --> 00:45:54.130
because those are ready to be used and just getting

00:45:54.130 --> 00:45:57.809
in that mindset and practicing that really saves

00:45:57.809 --> 00:46:00.789
time, which in turn saves lives. Absolutely.

00:46:01.030 --> 00:46:02.929
Another area when we're on the training topic

00:46:02.929 --> 00:46:06.010
that came to me, I mean, you can do this absolutely

00:46:06.010 --> 00:46:09.949
in the fireside too, but especially in EMS, being

00:46:09.949 --> 00:46:13.889
that black cloud, that grim reaper medic, you

00:46:13.889 --> 00:46:16.929
know, I have a code save tally of zero in 14

00:46:16.929 --> 00:46:19.619
years. You know, and I'm just, it's just, I get

00:46:19.619 --> 00:46:21.199
those calls. I get the brain bleeds. I get the

00:46:21.199 --> 00:46:23.039
triple A's. I get the, you know, the traumatic

00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:25.139
arrests and all the things that we just don't

00:46:25.139 --> 00:46:27.219
come back from or the diseased heart that refuses

00:46:27.219 --> 00:46:31.400
to start beating again, such as life. But what

00:46:31.400 --> 00:46:35.280
would have been amazing in EMT and, you know,

00:46:35.320 --> 00:46:38.280
paramedic school, let's say medic school as a

00:46:38.280 --> 00:46:41.739
mega code that you work those algorithms and

00:46:41.739 --> 00:46:44.219
you do the compressions, right? You defibrillate,

00:46:44.219 --> 00:46:47.489
right? You give the right meds. And the person

00:46:47.489 --> 00:46:50.949
doesn't come back. You might even get PAs, but

00:46:50.949 --> 00:46:54.550
you don't actually get the person. They say,

00:46:54.630 --> 00:46:57.989
good job. Sometimes, yeah, they're rough, beautiful.

00:46:58.289 --> 00:47:00.969
But in some scenarios, do everything right, get

00:47:00.969 --> 00:47:03.590
congratulated, and they still die. Because that's

00:47:03.590 --> 00:47:05.989
the real world. And even in the fire scenario,

00:47:06.269 --> 00:47:09.110
sometimes, I don't know, make the attack and

00:47:09.110 --> 00:47:10.829
then pull everyone out and say you couldn't get

00:47:10.829 --> 00:47:12.690
to them. And it's not your fault. Everything

00:47:12.690 --> 00:47:16.320
that you did was right. Because this... do A

00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:19.199
plus B plus C equals a success. And then, you

00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:21.440
know, all you see on TV is them holding the baby

00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:24.940
as they walk out. As we know, it's not like go

00:47:24.940 --> 00:47:26.739
in there thinking you're already defeated, but

00:47:26.739 --> 00:47:29.059
understand that if it doesn't have the outcome

00:47:29.059 --> 00:47:32.099
that you are projecting, that doesn't mean that

00:47:32.099 --> 00:47:33.659
you didn't do the good job. And there shouldn't

00:47:33.659 --> 00:47:35.960
be moral injury from the fact that you worked

00:47:35.960 --> 00:47:38.019
an incredible code and the person still died.

00:47:39.460 --> 00:47:43.480
Absolutely. I was a AHA instructor for years.

00:47:44.019 --> 00:47:48.059
both the ACLS and the PALS side. And most of

00:47:48.059 --> 00:47:49.760
the scenarios we did, you're absolutely correct,

00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:53.800
patient lived. We got pulse back. That was just

00:47:53.800 --> 00:47:56.940
generally how the scenarios went. But preparing

00:47:56.940 --> 00:47:59.940
yourself for the fact that these calls aren't

00:47:59.940 --> 00:48:03.239
going to always go that way. I think in my career,

00:48:03.440 --> 00:48:06.900
if I had, I know of two, maybe a third that walked

00:48:06.900 --> 00:48:10.159
out 100 % cognitive after cardiac arrest is a

00:48:10.159 --> 00:48:18.050
true safe. And those are rare. And if you can

00:48:18.050 --> 00:48:21.750
put that realism element into the training that

00:48:21.750 --> 00:48:26.989
you do, absolutely. I laugh because you brought

00:48:26.989 --> 00:48:31.690
up the backing out. We had recently done what

00:48:31.690 --> 00:48:38.269
we're calling a command scenario along with they

00:48:38.269 --> 00:48:40.630
were advancing hose lines searching at the same

00:48:40.630 --> 00:48:42.190
time. So they were doing hose line searches.

00:48:42.969 --> 00:48:46.349
And they picked me to be the battalion car. So

00:48:46.349 --> 00:48:50.190
I was acting as command officer. I'm in the station

00:48:50.190 --> 00:48:53.550
cooking dinner, by the way. And talking on the

00:48:53.550 --> 00:48:56.349
radio, which is actually 100 % realistic, you

00:48:56.349 --> 00:48:58.369
got two or three things going on at once while

00:48:58.369 --> 00:49:02.449
communicating. And the guys go in, they're talking

00:49:02.449 --> 00:49:04.989
to me, and I'm doing all the assignments and

00:49:04.989 --> 00:49:07.289
everything. And I heard one of the guys say,

00:49:07.429 --> 00:49:09.929
it's getting really dark and hot in here. And

00:49:09.929 --> 00:49:13.000
I knew what the guy was about to do to me. I'm

00:49:13.000 --> 00:49:15.539
like, he's going to call a mayday. I know it's

00:49:15.539 --> 00:49:19.260
coming, you know? So as I'm getting ready to

00:49:19.260 --> 00:49:21.500
say, everybody evacuate the structure, we're

00:49:21.500 --> 00:49:24.940
going defensive. He calls a mayday. Now, what

00:49:24.940 --> 00:49:29.519
do you do? Yeah. And that is the realism of what

00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:32.780
can happen. I mean, I, that recently happened

00:49:32.780 --> 00:49:34.679
in a jurisdiction just North me where they were

00:49:34.679 --> 00:49:37.500
upstairs working and had to bail out a window.

00:49:39.530 --> 00:49:41.969
It happens and it happens quicker than you think.

00:49:42.250 --> 00:49:44.329
So for me, it was a great learning tool because

00:49:44.329 --> 00:49:47.750
I knew I could sense what was coming by how he

00:49:47.750 --> 00:49:49.929
described it and the conditions. And I'm getting

00:49:49.929 --> 00:49:52.210
ready to do exactly what I should do, which is

00:49:52.210 --> 00:49:54.409
this room's about to flash. Let's get everybody

00:49:54.409 --> 00:50:00.969
out. And he throws a mayday in the mix. You know,

00:50:01.010 --> 00:50:03.369
yes, everybody knows it's a training scenario,

00:50:03.489 --> 00:50:08.030
but now you have to direct the crews to get this

00:50:08.030 --> 00:50:11.360
firefighter out. Reposition hand lines, you know,

00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:13.320
move other crews in the place to try to keep

00:50:13.320 --> 00:50:15.400
this fire at bay so you can get your crew member

00:50:15.400 --> 00:50:18.800
out. Yes, it's all fictitious, but that's realistic.

00:50:19.300 --> 00:50:21.920
100%. It happens all the time in the American

00:50:21.920 --> 00:50:25.579
Fire Service. And unfortunately, they're not

00:50:25.579 --> 00:50:28.500
all good outcomes. And especially when it's one

00:50:28.500 --> 00:50:30.119
of your brothers or sisters, that's the person

00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:32.260
that's in there. I mean, that adds another toll.

00:50:33.119 --> 00:50:35.699
So, yeah, I think getting, I think you're 100

00:50:35.699 --> 00:50:38.760
% correct. They're getting yourself. ready for

00:50:38.760 --> 00:50:41.440
that potential we're not going to get them out

00:50:41.440 --> 00:50:45.519
scenario or we're not going to save them it's

00:50:45.519 --> 00:50:48.800
something that we should be aiming at um now

00:50:48.800 --> 00:50:51.960
calls go 100 the way you want them to you know

00:50:51.960 --> 00:50:55.300
we can't save everybody um you can do 100 great

00:50:55.300 --> 00:50:57.519
care and they can still have a bad outcome and

00:50:57.519 --> 00:50:59.760
unfortunately that is just the way the world

00:50:59.760 --> 00:51:02.460
is and the way things work and we don't have

00:51:02.460 --> 00:51:05.460
any control over that yeah absolutely i mean

00:51:05.460 --> 00:51:07.840
obviously have you know good outcome A lot of

00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:09.900
the time, but yeah, throw those in unexpectedly

00:51:09.900 --> 00:51:12.199
so that people have to kind of process that.

00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:15.579
And so I like that, that idea of running command

00:51:15.579 --> 00:51:17.920
where you're making dinner too, because you're

00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:21.059
not staring at a training building where you're

00:51:21.059 --> 00:51:23.059
probably not getting the elevated heart rate

00:51:23.059 --> 00:51:24.760
because you're so detached and you're hearing

00:51:24.760 --> 00:51:27.699
this. I'm sure it seemed a lot more real than

00:51:27.699 --> 00:51:29.820
if you were standing in front of a burn building.

00:51:30.980 --> 00:51:33.860
Absolutely. So I was in the kitchen, they were

00:51:33.860 --> 00:51:37.460
out utilizing the. the gear room and the other

00:51:37.460 --> 00:51:41.159
bays as their multi -room structure and they

00:51:41.159 --> 00:51:43.739
were just training reps right training reps hey

00:51:43.739 --> 00:51:45.739
we want you to run command so you can we can

00:51:45.739 --> 00:51:47.980
talk back and forth kind of interior to command

00:51:47.980 --> 00:51:52.019
radio traffic as well and i'm like well hey just

00:51:52.019 --> 00:51:54.139
so you guys know like i did a few from the battalion

00:51:54.139 --> 00:51:57.300
car beforehand and then like hey i gotta go and

00:51:57.300 --> 00:52:00.039
make dinner keep going like i'll work through

00:52:00.039 --> 00:52:03.239
it because i wanted the challenge call it multitasking

00:52:03.869 --> 00:52:05.769
You know, multitasking really isn't a thing.

00:52:05.829 --> 00:52:07.750
It's just our body's ability, our brain's ability

00:52:07.750 --> 00:52:09.349
to go, Hey, I've seen this before. I'm going

00:52:09.349 --> 00:52:13.789
to continue. I know how this works. And I was

00:52:13.789 --> 00:52:15.409
just kind of sitting there doing my thing. And

00:52:15.409 --> 00:52:17.570
even my assistant chief came in and goes, Oh,

00:52:17.670 --> 00:52:19.630
you're training while cooking. That's cool. Like,

00:52:19.630 --> 00:52:21.710
I'm like, I wanted the challenge of doing it

00:52:21.710 --> 00:52:26.090
and we need to eat. So the guys out there that

00:52:26.090 --> 00:52:28.269
we were talking back for the ads and realism,

00:52:28.449 --> 00:52:32.050
yes, my, my heart rate wasn't up, but if you,

00:52:32.090 --> 00:52:34.550
you know what I've seen with, whether it's my

00:52:34.550 --> 00:52:36.429
chief running command or whether it's an officer

00:52:36.429 --> 00:52:40.090
running command out of a car, that ability to

00:52:40.090 --> 00:52:42.670
be able to step back away from the scene keeps

00:52:42.670 --> 00:52:44.909
their heart rate low. Now your heart rate's low,

00:52:45.030 --> 00:52:46.550
you're thinking clearer, you're making better

00:52:46.550 --> 00:52:52.369
judgment decisions. And if we can take that and

00:52:52.369 --> 00:52:55.409
then put it into the firefighters that are doing

00:52:55.409 --> 00:52:57.989
the work on the inside that are not the command

00:52:57.989 --> 00:53:01.090
staff to be able to do the same thing, man, your

00:53:01.090 --> 00:53:04.539
heart rate ain't going to be 60. But let's say

00:53:04.539 --> 00:53:09.420
we get to 105 versus 165. Now you're able to

00:53:09.420 --> 00:53:12.599
make clear judgments, calls. You're thinking

00:53:12.599 --> 00:53:18.159
clearer. Your senses are heightened more. And

00:53:18.159 --> 00:53:20.079
then you add in the physical fitness side of

00:53:20.079 --> 00:53:23.039
it where you're not physically tired, where your

00:53:23.039 --> 00:53:26.760
body's not drained, that those reps add up to

00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:29.880
leading to a well -polished crew when it comes

00:53:29.880 --> 00:53:32.840
to working on a scene. Yeah, that reminds me

00:53:32.840 --> 00:53:35.179
as well. When I'm my last apartment, they were

00:53:35.179 --> 00:53:38.460
planning a high rise training and they were doing

00:53:38.460 --> 00:53:41.480
it in a two story building. And I had said, well,

00:53:41.579 --> 00:53:45.039
how are we going to simulate a 30 story climb

00:53:45.039 --> 00:53:47.519
prior to this? And he goes, oh, we'll just get

00:53:47.519 --> 00:53:49.019
you to walk around the building a couple of times

00:53:49.019 --> 00:53:52.480
first. And I literally probably facepalmed. But

00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:54.559
I was just like, this is the problem is that

00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:57.719
you don't have to create scenarios that are extremely

00:53:57.719 --> 00:54:01.139
complex and kind of, you know. stump the chump

00:54:01.139 --> 00:54:04.059
kind of element but if you are talking about

00:54:04.059 --> 00:54:07.460
a scenario that would absolutely require exertion

00:54:07.460 --> 00:54:09.800
i mean you know a high -rise strip is 100 pounds

00:54:09.800 --> 00:54:12.659
of gear you know i'm back when i was working

00:54:12.659 --> 00:54:15.119
i was 168 you know that's that's a lot of weight

00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:17.940
and now you got to go 30 floors up and then you

00:54:17.940 --> 00:54:20.880
start working that's where you can't just be

00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:22.880
in the building all right go take the standpipe

00:54:22.880 --> 00:54:24.380
you know on the second floor and then attack

00:54:24.380 --> 00:54:26.489
it on the third You've got to do something that's

00:54:26.489 --> 00:54:28.650
going to simulate what it would take to get all

00:54:28.650 --> 00:54:30.670
that gear there in the first place and then go

00:54:30.670 --> 00:54:33.050
to work. And then in the scenario I put together,

00:54:33.190 --> 00:54:35.469
then we intubated the mannequin at the end. So

00:54:35.469 --> 00:54:38.289
now you've got a finite skill as well, or fine

00:54:38.289 --> 00:54:40.670
motor skill, excuse me. So I think this is another

00:54:40.670 --> 00:54:43.789
area where sometimes you don't have to create

00:54:43.789 --> 00:54:46.670
like an unwinnable scenario, but are you simulating

00:54:46.670 --> 00:54:50.190
the physiological response through exertion and

00:54:50.190 --> 00:54:53.059
or stress? that a firefighter would actually

00:54:53.059 --> 00:54:56.079
encounter on this particular scenario or are

00:54:56.079 --> 00:54:58.159
you dumbing it down so much that they will actually

00:54:58.159 --> 00:55:01.960
be shocked when they have the real one yeah um

00:55:01.960 --> 00:55:04.559
and then that scenario i was talking about that

00:55:04.559 --> 00:55:06.480
was the last one we did and i think that was

00:55:06.480 --> 00:55:09.800
evolution six or seven so by that time you know

00:55:09.800 --> 00:55:11.539
i hate to say those guys but those guys were

00:55:11.539 --> 00:55:14.119
getting pretty tired because i was the guy that

00:55:14.119 --> 00:55:16.679
was running the radio I had the easy job, a hundred

00:55:16.679 --> 00:55:18.739
percent, the easiest job out there. Cause I was

00:55:18.739 --> 00:55:20.639
standing there going like this, you know, holding

00:55:20.639 --> 00:55:23.219
that mic up to your mouth and those guys were

00:55:23.219 --> 00:55:25.719
getting tired and then had to turn around and

00:55:25.719 --> 00:55:28.019
they threw the mayday in. Now we got to go get

00:55:28.019 --> 00:55:31.039
the firefighter. The funny part is, is the guy

00:55:31.039 --> 00:55:32.719
that called the mayday was the only one that

00:55:32.719 --> 00:55:34.440
was thinking about calling the mayday. So nobody

00:55:34.440 --> 00:55:36.920
else had a clue. So it was realistic. You're

00:55:36.920 --> 00:55:39.460
physically tired. You're drained. Oh crap. Now

00:55:39.460 --> 00:55:43.619
we got to go get our buddy. And yeah, if you're

00:55:43.619 --> 00:55:44.920
going to, like you said, if you're doing a 30

00:55:44.920 --> 00:55:46.260
story high rise, well, you better be climbing

00:55:46.260 --> 00:55:49.199
stairs, you know, 15 times to simulate that 30

00:55:49.199 --> 00:55:51.860
stories. Cause you don't know how your body might

00:55:51.860 --> 00:55:53.320
not know how your body's going to react at 30

00:55:53.320 --> 00:55:56.059
stories up by the time you get there. Not to

00:55:56.059 --> 00:56:00.519
mention what's your time like you I'm 156 pounds

00:56:00.519 --> 00:56:03.760
wet on a normal day, you know, add gear. There's

00:56:03.760 --> 00:56:06.579
another 80 pounds, you know, now I had tools

00:56:06.579 --> 00:56:10.039
pack, whatever else. Yeah, that would be a lot.

00:56:10.159 --> 00:56:12.340
We don't have high rises. I got two, maybe three

00:56:12.340 --> 00:56:15.639
-story buildings. I'm okay with that. But even

00:56:15.639 --> 00:56:18.980
then, three -story buildings, how are we getting

00:56:18.980 --> 00:56:21.099
there? What lines are we taking up? Are we taking

00:56:21.099 --> 00:56:24.119
a standpipe pack and a three -inch as a supply

00:56:24.119 --> 00:56:26.579
line or two and a half as a supply line? What

00:56:26.579 --> 00:56:29.159
are we doing to get there? How are we going to

00:56:29.159 --> 00:56:32.500
stretch it once we do get there? What's our air

00:56:32.500 --> 00:56:36.039
going to be like? Just doing them simulated trainings.

00:56:36.760 --> 00:56:40.219
If you're going to do a... three -story and let's

00:56:40.219 --> 00:56:41.599
say we're going to call it an apartment building

00:56:41.599 --> 00:56:45.679
empty out your bay floor you know you're talking

00:56:45.679 --> 00:56:49.380
we'll say 60 foot wide create some obstacles

00:56:49.380 --> 00:56:54.019
and then go go walk either jog or walk some laps

00:56:54.019 --> 00:56:55.739
around the station a few times and then go do

00:56:55.739 --> 00:56:59.559
the scenario in your gear then go on air as you're

00:56:59.559 --> 00:57:01.440
already heavy breathing and now go do it because

00:57:01.440 --> 00:57:02.739
that's what's going to happen as you go up them

00:57:02.739 --> 00:57:04.199
steps is your heart rate's going to jump your

00:57:04.199 --> 00:57:06.760
breathing is going to go on Now we got to simulate

00:57:06.760 --> 00:57:09.320
getting that line in place and it might be a

00:57:09.320 --> 00:57:10.699
two and a half. Well, how many people does it

00:57:10.699 --> 00:57:12.780
take to move to two and a half? You know, you're

00:57:12.780 --> 00:57:15.320
talking a third story, three people minimum,

00:57:15.380 --> 00:57:20.440
just to move it. How often do we do that? A few

00:57:20.440 --> 00:57:22.199
times in our career, if you're a smaller town,

00:57:22.280 --> 00:57:24.639
smaller city, maybe a little bit more if you're

00:57:24.639 --> 00:57:27.659
a bigger city, but that having that mindset of

00:57:27.659 --> 00:57:30.179
let's create it and make it as realistic as possible.

00:57:30.219 --> 00:57:33.579
We're not just dragging this line really as a.

00:57:36.539 --> 00:57:39.960
positive benefit to developing and maintaining

00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:44.900
the eliteness that you can get in this job. Absolutely.

00:57:45.539 --> 00:57:47.760
Well, you mentioned that you transitioned from

00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:50.139
one department to the other. What was behind

00:57:50.139 --> 00:57:52.880
the change and then contrast the two departments?

00:57:53.880 --> 00:57:56.500
So first department I was at, they're both about

00:57:56.500 --> 00:57:59.099
the same size, 16 ,000 to 18 ,000 residents between

00:57:59.099 --> 00:58:02.199
the city and the township that we covered. First

00:58:02.199 --> 00:58:04.420
department I worked at, California Swing. So

00:58:04.420 --> 00:58:06.420
you're day on, day off, day on, day off, day

00:58:06.420 --> 00:58:09.239
on, and then four off for the people that don't

00:58:09.239 --> 00:58:12.559
know what that is. At the time, I'm like, man,

00:58:12.599 --> 00:58:15.219
this is way better than a 24 on, 48 off shift

00:58:15.219 --> 00:58:16.900
schedule because you got that four -day window.

00:58:20.019 --> 00:58:23.719
As I went through my career, you can say certain

00:58:23.719 --> 00:58:27.019
calls I was on. Being in a smaller town, you

00:58:27.019 --> 00:58:32.539
got to know people. I've been on enough. I had

00:58:32.539 --> 00:58:35.460
enough calls with people that I knew, whether

00:58:35.460 --> 00:58:40.800
it was their family, themselves, or the death

00:58:40.800 --> 00:58:42.960
of a fellow friend that was a firefighter who

00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:49.099
I was on that call, that it took a toll. And

00:58:49.099 --> 00:58:54.800
I give my ex -wife credit to this because she

00:58:54.800 --> 00:58:58.559
gave me an ultimatum. Get help or I'm gone. And

00:58:58.559 --> 00:59:01.949
I went and... Went through therapy for a while,

00:59:01.969 --> 00:59:03.530
continued to work, but went through therapy,

00:59:03.630 --> 00:59:07.630
did EMDR for a while. Got a little bit better.

00:59:08.230 --> 00:59:10.710
But ultimately, I ended up not being happy where

00:59:10.710 --> 00:59:15.070
I was. There was too much bad memories there

00:59:15.070 --> 00:59:17.530
to where I wasn't happy coming into work just

00:59:17.530 --> 00:59:21.730
because of everything that had went on. Ultimately,

00:59:22.010 --> 00:59:24.570
that led to a divorce. And I think that was kind

00:59:24.570 --> 00:59:26.590
of the final straw. There was nothing holding

00:59:26.590 --> 00:59:31.059
me here anymore. A lot of the guys that I knew

00:59:31.059 --> 00:59:35.480
had either moved on or retired. A lot of the

00:59:35.480 --> 00:59:37.539
younger, you know, it was a very young department

00:59:37.539 --> 00:59:41.360
now other than myself and a couple others. And

00:59:41.360 --> 00:59:45.820
the department I'm currently at was looking to

00:59:45.820 --> 00:59:47.440
go from part -time to a full -time department.

00:59:48.320 --> 00:59:51.380
And they were starting a new shift I had never

00:59:51.380 --> 00:59:54.019
heard of at the time, which was a 24 -72, which

00:59:54.019 --> 00:59:57.960
is your favorite shift. Is it that obvious? Yes.

01:00:00.019 --> 01:00:02.039
I happened to know the chief. I had known him

01:00:02.039 --> 01:00:04.559
for a few years prior through, you know, fire

01:00:04.559 --> 01:00:08.360
department, different fire department things

01:00:08.360 --> 01:00:12.219
that we had done together. And I'm like, man,

01:00:12.300 --> 01:00:14.219
I would love to go work for him. I'd love to,

01:00:14.219 --> 01:00:15.940
you know, start something new. It'd be really

01:00:15.940 --> 01:00:17.599
cool to start a department of the full -time

01:00:17.599 --> 01:00:21.179
staff. Not many people get to do that. And I

01:00:21.179 --> 01:00:23.679
was like, man, the schedule would be awesome.

01:00:23.739 --> 01:00:26.360
And you start doing the math and without even

01:00:26.360 --> 01:00:28.639
taking vacation, it was a 21 day difference.

01:00:29.179 --> 01:00:33.179
in a year yeah and it's like man that's 21 more

01:00:33.179 --> 01:00:37.440
free days and at the time you know what i didn't

01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:43.539
know was that hey not only is the 21 day difference

01:00:43.539 --> 01:00:47.780
that's one more recovery day um with my schedule

01:00:47.780 --> 01:00:50.960
i would come home from shift on my quote in between

01:00:50.960 --> 01:00:54.400
days And by the time you – you never really mentally

01:00:54.400 --> 01:00:56.320
recovered. It was a little bit of a physical

01:00:56.320 --> 01:00:59.039
recovery. But you were never 100 % there the

01:00:59.039 --> 01:01:02.199
first two off days until you got to that four

01:01:02.199 --> 01:01:05.219
-day. And even then, that first day on your four

01:01:05.219 --> 01:01:07.940
-day was rough, you know, especially if you had

01:01:07.940 --> 01:01:12.000
a rough night. I have younger kids still. And,

01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:15.639
you know, I'm coming home to a baby at that time.

01:01:17.019 --> 01:01:19.900
She's now six. You know, you're coming home from

01:01:19.900 --> 01:01:23.420
a baby up to she was four when I made the switch,

01:01:23.619 --> 01:01:30.239
a four -year -old, that's a lot. And then you

01:01:30.239 --> 01:01:32.840
add the stresses of work, family life, you know,

01:01:32.840 --> 01:01:37.079
relationships not working out. That's a lot of

01:01:37.079 --> 01:01:39.679
stress. And if you can't have that time to recoup,

01:01:39.880 --> 01:01:43.800
it really wore on me. Like I said, to the point

01:01:43.800 --> 01:01:45.519
where I wasn't happy coming to work. And I made

01:01:45.519 --> 01:01:48.280
that switch and I started working the new schedule.

01:01:48.829 --> 01:01:51.530
And I'm like, man, this is really nice. You know,

01:01:51.650 --> 01:01:53.909
I've had a second job for most of my career.

01:01:55.090 --> 01:01:58.329
This is the first era of my career where my second

01:01:58.329 --> 01:02:00.369
job doesn't involve anything but the fire service.

01:02:01.570 --> 01:02:04.309
A couple of days a week, I do work for a small

01:02:04.309 --> 01:02:07.429
garage door company. And it's just physical labor,

01:02:07.550 --> 01:02:09.210
but it's something different and challenging.

01:02:10.050 --> 01:02:13.190
And it's not a lot of hours, but it's a little

01:02:13.190 --> 01:02:16.530
bit extra. But what I'm finding is, is that with

01:02:16.530 --> 01:02:18.769
my work schedule, if I do have that bad shift

01:02:18.769 --> 01:02:23.030
that that next day, you have the ability to kind

01:02:23.030 --> 01:02:25.789
of relax a little bit offload if you need to.

01:02:27.670 --> 01:02:30.289
Also, what I did find is I'm driving now, I'm

01:02:30.289 --> 01:02:32.690
driving a half an hour to work back and forth

01:02:32.690 --> 01:02:39.309
versus eight minutes. And that half hour is my.

01:02:40.559 --> 01:02:43.059
I call it my solace time, whether it's I'm going

01:02:43.059 --> 01:02:45.000
to work. So I'm getting leaving the stuff from

01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:47.440
home at home, getting ready for my day at work

01:02:47.440 --> 01:02:51.380
or my offload time coming home. That allows me

01:02:51.380 --> 01:02:53.480
that little bit of time to just offload anything

01:02:53.480 --> 01:02:56.619
I hadn't before I get home. So I usually meditate

01:02:56.619 --> 01:03:00.800
after I get home from shift, which in turn has

01:03:00.800 --> 01:03:04.739
really helped me be able to on that recovery

01:03:04.739 --> 01:03:12.039
day to really mind my body. And then also look

01:03:12.039 --> 01:03:15.699
at myself mentally as far as, you know, how am

01:03:15.699 --> 01:03:18.880
I feeling? The hard question that nobody really

01:03:18.880 --> 01:03:23.639
wants to ask, how am I feeling myself? And I

01:03:23.639 --> 01:03:27.480
am very fortunate that I have many great people

01:03:27.480 --> 01:03:31.860
in my inner circle. Three people who I went through

01:03:31.860 --> 01:03:35.139
Sable Warrior with, as well as one, two fellow

01:03:35.139 --> 01:03:38.420
firefighters that they're a couple that Steph,

01:03:38.480 --> 01:03:42.179
she's like my sister. She's a person that no

01:03:42.179 --> 01:03:44.840
matter what, I can call with anything and she'll

01:03:44.840 --> 01:03:48.360
listen. And having that complete inner circle

01:03:48.360 --> 01:03:53.440
and the extra day off just makes a huge difference.

01:03:54.159 --> 01:03:58.679
And the physical wear is less. We still get those

01:03:58.679 --> 01:04:00.960
shifts where you're up all but a half hour of

01:04:00.960 --> 01:04:03.760
the night. But knowing, hey, I got an extra day

01:04:03.760 --> 01:04:06.380
off, when you come home, your body just relaxes.

01:04:06.519 --> 01:04:09.019
You just kind of get in a nice, easy state versus,

01:04:09.639 --> 01:04:11.300
I got to go back to work in a day and a half.

01:04:11.380 --> 01:04:13.940
I got to make the best out of this day. You don't

01:04:13.940 --> 01:04:17.940
have to now. So that was the transition. And

01:04:17.940 --> 01:04:21.199
that really was part of the whole overall movement

01:04:21.199 --> 01:04:24.260
from department to department. And honestly,

01:04:24.519 --> 01:04:27.519
as much as I love the building I was in, I love

01:04:27.519 --> 01:04:29.519
the people I work with. It was probably one of

01:04:29.519 --> 01:04:31.579
the better decisions I needed to make. I just

01:04:31.579 --> 01:04:32.960
didn't know at the time that that's what needed

01:04:32.960 --> 01:04:36.119
to happen. Well, firstly, I mean, that's so.

01:04:36.760 --> 01:04:39.400
So powerful to hear for a number of reasons.

01:04:39.480 --> 01:04:43.019
Before I kind of dive into some of them, when

01:04:43.019 --> 01:04:47.420
you got into the department, what or who was

01:04:47.420 --> 01:04:50.579
behind the decision to go to 2472? The reason

01:04:50.579 --> 01:04:52.980
I ask that, I've had some friends of mine who

01:04:52.980 --> 01:04:55.360
are doing exactly the same thing, part -time

01:04:55.360 --> 01:04:58.920
and or volunteer into a career. And I've told

01:04:58.920 --> 01:05:00.980
them, look, if you are going to do it from scratch,

01:05:01.239 --> 01:05:04.219
why not do the right shift off the bat? And in

01:05:04.219 --> 01:05:07.780
one case, my friend. They went to 4896. And I

01:05:07.780 --> 01:05:10.800
was like, oh, my God. And now you're locked into

01:05:10.800 --> 01:05:13.000
that. And now you've got to work away from that.

01:05:13.159 --> 01:05:15.440
So it sounds like you had some progressive people

01:05:15.440 --> 01:05:18.579
in this development. So do you know the backstory

01:05:18.579 --> 01:05:22.179
of why that shift was chosen? I don't know the

01:05:22.179 --> 01:05:24.619
full backstory because I don't want to misquote

01:05:24.619 --> 01:05:27.760
it. But from what I understand is chief at the

01:05:27.760 --> 01:05:32.000
time was we are a small city that's been part

01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:36.170
time for years and for that volunteer. And how

01:05:36.170 --> 01:05:39.050
can we draw for this initial hiring process,

01:05:39.130 --> 01:05:41.869
do it through a lateral process, good people

01:05:41.869 --> 01:05:44.550
with good experience, but also get a decent level

01:05:44.550 --> 01:05:48.869
in there as well. He also, I think, understands

01:05:48.869 --> 01:05:52.289
very well the toll that the job does to you.

01:05:52.829 --> 01:05:56.289
I think, you know, so how can I get them a benefit

01:05:56.289 --> 01:05:58.269
without getting them a benefit, right? Like would

01:05:58.269 --> 01:06:01.449
be a good way to say it. And that was, if we

01:06:01.449 --> 01:06:04.010
go to the schedule, which... At the time, I think

01:06:04.010 --> 01:06:05.969
there was one other department in Ohio doing

01:06:05.969 --> 01:06:12.309
it. Now there's three that I think that I'm not

01:06:12.309 --> 01:06:15.170
sure where the idea came from from him. But I

01:06:15.170 --> 01:06:16.989
think at the time he was looking at how can I

01:06:16.989 --> 01:06:19.469
make this a desirable department to be and get

01:06:19.469 --> 01:06:23.469
good people, but do the best for my people. And

01:06:23.469 --> 01:06:27.409
it was weird going through a four shift system

01:06:27.409 --> 01:06:30.349
because you're used to either seeing somebody

01:06:30.349 --> 01:06:33.809
coming on. or seeing somebody going off there's

01:06:33.809 --> 01:06:36.289
a whole shift we don't see unless we trade or

01:06:36.289 --> 01:06:38.389
somebody's filling in on a little bit over time

01:06:38.389 --> 01:06:44.329
there is so there's it's a really unique dynamic

01:06:44.329 --> 01:06:47.050
that you don't think about that every shift has

01:06:47.050 --> 01:06:50.969
a shift they don't see but you see them here

01:06:50.969 --> 01:06:56.670
or there and uh i know for me the you know the

01:06:56.670 --> 01:07:00.309
few things i've learned is that with Our chief

01:07:00.309 --> 01:07:03.130
currently, he's very pro firefighter dynamic.

01:07:03.489 --> 01:07:07.710
You know, a lot of the things that we do goes

01:07:07.710 --> 01:07:10.829
off the, excuse me, the inverted pyramid model.

01:07:12.230 --> 01:07:14.650
So, you know, yes, he is the chief, but a lot

01:07:14.650 --> 01:07:17.369
of things we do, we're up here. He's down here.

01:07:17.530 --> 01:07:19.730
How can I, you know, how can I make the tips

01:07:19.730 --> 01:07:21.869
down below? How can I make the environment better

01:07:21.869 --> 01:07:24.269
for my people? Or how can I, you know, what can

01:07:24.269 --> 01:07:28.420
I help to do help with help? make easier for

01:07:28.420 --> 01:07:31.400
people to do when they come to work. And I think

01:07:31.400 --> 01:07:35.199
a lot of that positive mindset of putting your

01:07:35.199 --> 01:07:38.920
people first is what drove the decision. I don't

01:07:38.920 --> 01:07:42.380
know 100%, but I do know that I think it was

01:07:42.380 --> 01:07:46.000
the right call. We got good quality people. I

01:07:46.000 --> 01:07:50.599
love the people I work with. I like the way our

01:07:50.599 --> 01:07:53.079
shifts fall with our part -timers. They worked

01:07:53.079 --> 01:07:56.500
every sixth day. So we see the same. two to three

01:07:56.500 --> 01:07:59.059
people every 12th day so every third shift for

01:07:59.059 --> 01:08:01.639
us and it makes a nice dynamic you're able to

01:08:01.639 --> 01:08:05.079
have shifts within a shift and you know how each

01:08:05.079 --> 01:08:07.739
other works you train with each other you're

01:08:07.739 --> 01:08:09.940
able you know you know who can cook who can't

01:08:09.940 --> 01:08:12.199
as funny as that sounds you know that you can

01:08:12.199 --> 01:08:13.519
send them to the store because they're not going

01:08:13.519 --> 01:08:17.819
to cook today like whatever it might be but it

01:08:17.819 --> 01:08:21.300
makes it so that you as a firefighter coming

01:08:21.300 --> 01:08:28.350
in are less stressed um and You know, for me,

01:08:28.369 --> 01:08:30.930
I know if I take one day off, I have seven days

01:08:30.930 --> 01:08:33.689
off at that point before I have to go back into

01:08:33.689 --> 01:08:36.010
work. That's a big thing for me with having younger

01:08:36.010 --> 01:08:39.350
kids. So that's a benefit. That's a huge benefit.

01:08:39.810 --> 01:08:42.569
You know, I get one day off. I get seven days

01:08:42.569 --> 01:08:44.489
with my kids, potentially, if I'm going on vacation.

01:08:46.130 --> 01:08:50.409
That's as a father that wants to be there for

01:08:50.409 --> 01:08:55.479
their kids. That's a big. I guess you could call

01:08:55.479 --> 01:09:00.260
it, you know, I, I try to, when I make sure that

01:09:00.260 --> 01:09:03.380
when I schedule stuff, you know, yes, I might

01:09:03.380 --> 01:09:05.439
have them at a sitter for a short time, or let's

01:09:05.439 --> 01:09:07.399
say I'm at my part -time job this day. I try

01:09:07.399 --> 01:09:10.140
to always make sure I get one full day a week

01:09:10.140 --> 01:09:13.039
that are most of a day that I can spend with

01:09:13.039 --> 01:09:15.399
them doing something, whether we're just at home

01:09:15.399 --> 01:09:18.279
or going somewhere, you know, it can be as simple

01:09:18.279 --> 01:09:21.520
as a park, swimming, whatever it might be. And

01:09:21.520 --> 01:09:26.079
I think part of that schedule. is driven by that

01:09:26.079 --> 01:09:29.420
it's very family oriented as well yeah i mean

01:09:29.420 --> 01:09:31.579
i agree 100 you probably heard me say that we

01:09:31.579 --> 01:09:33.779
we've always chased dollars and cents but the

01:09:33.779 --> 01:09:36.479
ultimate currency is time with our family and

01:09:36.479 --> 01:09:39.739
even i've had people recently say yeah i'm a

01:09:39.739 --> 01:09:42.119
fan of it but what about those guys in the stations

01:09:42.119 --> 01:09:44.800
that hardly ever run and i'm like well firstly

01:09:44.800 --> 01:09:46.960
most of them usually paid their dues in the busy

01:09:46.960 --> 01:09:49.479
station and they tend to move you know to somewhere

01:09:49.479 --> 01:09:52.270
quieter which i think is perfectly acceptable

01:09:52.270 --> 01:09:54.329
as long as they keep training. You know, you've

01:09:54.329 --> 01:09:57.970
kind of earned that position. But it doesn't

01:09:57.970 --> 01:10:00.170
matter whether you ran one call or 20 calls,

01:10:00.250 --> 01:10:02.170
you still were told you can't be with your family

01:10:02.170 --> 01:10:05.590
for 56 hours. So that's what we need to be talking

01:10:05.590 --> 01:10:07.210
about. Oh, were they running? It doesn't matter.

01:10:07.430 --> 01:10:10.029
I mean, are they fit? Are they training a lot?

01:10:10.270 --> 01:10:12.430
It's beautiful. So they're ready because we all

01:10:12.430 --> 01:10:14.970
know that those plane crashes or those school

01:10:14.970 --> 01:10:17.850
shootings normally happen in some really kind

01:10:17.850 --> 01:10:21.239
of random area that no one was expecting. That's

01:10:21.239 --> 01:10:22.720
the men and women that you are going to have

01:10:22.720 --> 01:10:25.520
responding initially to those events. So, you

01:10:25.520 --> 01:10:27.760
know, don't stop worrying about are they filling

01:10:27.760 --> 01:10:31.380
24 hours full of calls and just start thinking

01:10:31.380 --> 01:10:33.319
that, you know, we are the insurance policy.

01:10:33.460 --> 01:10:35.420
And some of us are used a lot more than others.

01:10:35.739 --> 01:10:38.840
But ultimately, you are asking these people,

01:10:38.859 --> 01:10:40.800
you are telling these people you cannot go home

01:10:40.800 --> 01:10:43.840
for this amount of time. So why should that be

01:10:43.840 --> 01:10:48.850
56 for fire and 40 for admin? Hearing that currency,

01:10:49.050 --> 01:10:51.390
like you're talking about, I think is beautiful.

01:10:52.310 --> 01:10:55.829
You mentioned as well about the part -time job,

01:10:55.909 --> 01:10:58.569
the garage door job. This is another pushback

01:10:58.569 --> 01:11:01.270
that I get, which is, again, it nauseates me

01:11:01.270 --> 01:11:03.510
when someone like a chief or whoever it is, or

01:11:03.510 --> 01:11:06.170
a city manager says, well, if we give them more

01:11:06.170 --> 01:11:09.069
time off, they'll just work more. Because firstly,

01:11:09.170 --> 01:11:10.869
you're not in charge of someone on their days

01:11:10.869 --> 01:11:13.090
off. And secondly, if you're talking about overtime,

01:11:13.449 --> 01:11:15.789
you're the one that created those holes in the

01:11:15.789 --> 01:11:18.789
first place. So make the changes that will bring

01:11:18.789 --> 01:11:20.989
people back into your department. And those overtime

01:11:20.989 --> 01:11:23.289
vacancies won't be there to work in the first

01:11:23.289 --> 01:11:25.829
place. But on the other side of the coin, of

01:11:25.829 --> 01:11:28.489
course, educating people don't work overnight

01:11:28.489 --> 01:11:30.789
in an ER on your days off. Don't work for a private

01:11:30.789 --> 01:11:34.090
ambulance company. But I'd love to kind of, you

01:11:34.090 --> 01:11:36.510
know, dive into that. I work the same California

01:11:36.510 --> 01:11:39.670
schedule. Mine was four 24s, one on one off.

01:11:39.729 --> 01:11:41.609
And then we had a four or a six alternating.

01:11:42.090 --> 01:11:45.010
And those 24 on 24 hours are brutal. Absolutely

01:11:45.010 --> 01:11:49.199
brutal. So talk to me about, you know, the second

01:11:49.199 --> 01:11:52.539
job, the importance of it. Are you still at home

01:11:52.539 --> 01:11:54.300
in the evenings? Are you still sleeping well?

01:11:54.380 --> 01:11:57.100
Because it's debunking some of the BS arguments

01:11:57.100 --> 01:11:59.699
I hear that we shouldn't be working on our days

01:11:59.699 --> 01:12:04.880
off. Yeah. So for me, it was a let's just make

01:12:04.880 --> 01:12:10.819
a little bit extra money type job. The it came

01:12:10.819 --> 01:12:13.180
it came back into fruition, like I always work,

01:12:13.220 --> 01:12:16.510
like I always work second job. My ex -wife was

01:12:16.510 --> 01:12:18.229
a stay -at -home mom, and I prayed for her. You

01:12:18.229 --> 01:12:20.930
know, I give her big praise for that. Just, you

01:12:20.930 --> 01:12:23.229
know, wanted to be home with her kids. And she

01:12:23.229 --> 01:12:25.649
went back to work, and then as the kids got a

01:12:25.649 --> 01:12:28.489
little bit older, and, you know, and then I was

01:12:28.489 --> 01:12:29.970
kind of more of a stay -at -home parent. Well,

01:12:30.090 --> 01:12:31.970
when you get divorced, you know, sometimes you

01:12:31.970 --> 01:12:34.649
got to look at, hey, how can I better, let's

01:12:34.649 --> 01:12:37.949
better ourselves and better our family. And I'm

01:12:37.949 --> 01:12:40.239
like. i want to do something like i want to make

01:12:40.239 --> 01:12:41.880
sure i continue with it i want to have a second

01:12:41.880 --> 01:12:43.680
job just a small second income just something

01:12:43.680 --> 01:12:45.760
to help put a little buffer you know whether

01:12:45.760 --> 01:12:48.960
it's if i can build up you know let's say five

01:12:48.960 --> 01:12:52.399
grand into a oh crap account we'll call it you

01:12:52.399 --> 01:12:55.420
know that my car breaks down whatever it might

01:12:55.420 --> 01:12:57.460
be the money's just sitting there i don't have

01:12:57.460 --> 01:12:59.000
to worry about where it's going to come from

01:12:59.000 --> 01:13:01.539
maybe not having to pull out my savings whatever

01:13:01.539 --> 01:13:08.220
that might be that rainy day fund and I happened

01:13:08.220 --> 01:13:11.439
to reach out because I still run volunteer with

01:13:11.439 --> 01:13:17.300
a small department where I live. And I reached

01:13:17.300 --> 01:13:19.659
out to my volunteer chief. I was like, I just,

01:13:19.739 --> 01:13:22.100
I'm going to need to get a second job, you know,

01:13:22.100 --> 01:13:24.300
maybe the first year to just get me through this,

01:13:24.319 --> 01:13:27.779
you know, that when you're with somebody for

01:13:27.779 --> 01:13:30.619
17 years, you get used to a certain, whether

01:13:30.619 --> 01:13:33.520
it's lifestyle or way of living or whatever you

01:13:33.520 --> 01:13:36.520
want to call it. And it was like, I need to,

01:13:37.440 --> 01:13:39.500
make sure I land on my feet a hundred percent,

01:13:39.560 --> 01:13:41.939
but also, you know, I got to get a different

01:13:41.939 --> 01:13:44.220
rhythm now. It's a whole new rhythm, whole new

01:13:44.220 --> 01:13:49.560
lifestyle. So, you know, I work six to seven

01:13:49.560 --> 01:13:52.260
hours, you know, a couple of days a week extra.

01:13:52.739 --> 01:13:56.159
So, you know, up to 14 hours, maybe 16 hours

01:13:56.159 --> 01:14:01.239
a week extra. And I do that on purpose. I want

01:14:01.239 --> 01:14:03.420
at least one free day during the week and that

01:14:03.420 --> 01:14:05.560
won't be forever. You know, that's not my end

01:14:05.560 --> 01:14:09.329
goal with this. Um, it's more of a just giant

01:14:09.329 --> 01:14:12.350
savings account at this point for me, but I also

01:14:12.350 --> 01:14:13.829
didn't want to do anything to do with the fire

01:14:13.829 --> 01:14:17.689
service because I knew what doing fire or EMS

01:14:17.689 --> 01:14:21.170
related jobs, the extra stress that added to

01:14:21.170 --> 01:14:24.310
me as well. Um, you know, you're now you're taking

01:14:24.310 --> 01:14:26.369
what you might see over a career. Now we're timesing

01:14:26.369 --> 01:14:28.710
it by one and a half, you know, cause you're

01:14:28.710 --> 01:14:31.289
doing extra 24 a week or, you know, maybe 36

01:14:31.289 --> 01:14:36.539
hours a week. And. You just taking chances and

01:14:36.539 --> 01:14:38.560
adding more in. And I knew what it did to me

01:14:38.560 --> 01:14:43.199
and that I didn't want to deal with the extra

01:14:43.199 --> 01:14:45.899
stress of that, whether it's mental stress or

01:14:45.899 --> 01:14:49.699
physical stress. And, you know, I got fortunate

01:14:49.699 --> 01:14:52.199
that he was like, yeah, go talk to, you know,

01:14:52.199 --> 01:14:54.500
Doug. And he's got, you know, he'll get you right

01:14:54.500 --> 01:14:57.399
in. You know, he's done it before the help out.

01:14:57.579 --> 01:14:59.920
And I started working there as well. You know,

01:14:59.920 --> 01:15:01.560
at that time, he was a captain on my volunteer

01:15:01.560 --> 01:15:06.130
department. Because I've always had this sense

01:15:06.130 --> 01:15:09.350
of serve the community you live in as well. And

01:15:09.350 --> 01:15:13.109
I've been there now almost three years. And it's

01:15:13.109 --> 01:15:15.710
challenging to say it's just something different.

01:15:16.369 --> 01:15:18.810
You know, I'm still learning different things

01:15:18.810 --> 01:15:21.470
each day with it. It doesn't sound like the most

01:15:21.470 --> 01:15:23.689
enticing thing, but it's like what we do in the

01:15:23.689 --> 01:15:26.689
fire service. It's customer service. I mean,

01:15:26.710 --> 01:15:28.329
everything you do with it, it's the same notion,

01:15:28.449 --> 01:15:32.489
just a different form. And, you know, they're

01:15:32.489 --> 01:15:34.289
not light, so it's a little bit of a workout.

01:15:34.750 --> 01:15:36.729
at the same time so you're doing a little bit

01:15:36.729 --> 01:15:40.649
of physical fitness with it as well and uh that

01:15:40.649 --> 01:15:42.850
was kind of the reason i got into doing that

01:15:42.850 --> 01:15:47.869
and you know i would say the majority of people

01:15:47.869 --> 01:15:50.869
that have second jobs generally has some sort

01:15:50.869 --> 01:15:53.829
of whether it's profession they did or job they

01:15:53.829 --> 01:15:56.029
did beforehand that now they just continue to

01:15:56.029 --> 01:15:58.590
do that part -time whether it's construction

01:15:58.590 --> 01:16:01.869
lawn care um you know i know if you guys have

01:16:01.869 --> 01:16:04.989
rentals um Just something along those lines that

01:16:04.989 --> 01:16:07.250
they do for extra money on the side. You know,

01:16:07.350 --> 01:16:09.470
you always want to better for yourself and your

01:16:09.470 --> 01:16:11.170
family. And I think that's kind of the big thing

01:16:11.170 --> 01:16:13.689
behind it. And that was my drive behind it. 100

01:16:13.689 --> 01:16:16.090
% was I want to continue to better my family.

01:16:17.210 --> 01:16:19.489
So this is why it's so important to hear people,

01:16:19.630 --> 01:16:22.510
you know, some people push against the 24 -72

01:16:22.510 --> 01:16:23.810
because they don't want to lose the overtime.

01:16:24.350 --> 01:16:26.710
which again, you know, is extremely selfish if

01:16:26.710 --> 01:16:29.310
you think about it, because you're saying, let's

01:16:29.310 --> 01:16:31.310
carry on the ill health in our profession so

01:16:31.310 --> 01:16:33.489
I can, you know, live above my means really.

01:16:33.649 --> 01:16:36.189
And again, I was a single father. I get, totally

01:16:36.189 --> 01:16:38.890
get a single income, you know, in that position

01:16:38.890 --> 01:16:41.810
is really hard, but it's reframing it. Like no

01:16:41.810 --> 01:16:43.649
one's saying you can't earn more money. Just

01:16:43.649 --> 01:16:46.689
stop doing it as a firefighter. You know, if

01:16:46.689 --> 01:16:48.710
you went into most jobs and they said, well,

01:16:48.810 --> 01:16:51.029
it's a 40 hour work week, but we expect you to

01:16:51.029 --> 01:16:54.239
work 80. you would probably turn on your heels

01:16:54.239 --> 01:16:56.279
and walk back out again. It's the same with this.

01:16:56.319 --> 01:16:58.060
No one was telling you that there's guaranteed

01:16:58.060 --> 01:17:02.119
overtime. To perform optimally as a firefighter,

01:17:02.119 --> 01:17:05.899
a 24 -72 is it. If you want to choose more and

01:17:05.899 --> 01:17:07.880
get less recovery, you're opting to be a worse

01:17:07.880 --> 01:17:09.800
and worse firefighter. It's just hands down that

01:17:09.800 --> 01:17:13.100
is it. It's just pure science. But to have a

01:17:13.100 --> 01:17:16.359
separate side hustle. where you enjoy it. You've

01:17:16.359 --> 01:17:18.220
got a different tribe, a different identity.

01:17:18.399 --> 01:17:21.500
So you're not just all firefighter. And God forbid

01:17:21.500 --> 01:17:25.819
you get fired, you get hurt, whatever the thing

01:17:25.819 --> 01:17:28.260
is, or you simply retire. Now you've got that

01:17:28.260 --> 01:17:30.199
to go into. And then you've also got a financial

01:17:30.199 --> 01:17:34.600
safety net somewhat for your family. So if you're

01:17:34.600 --> 01:17:37.680
all in on the fire service and it goes away,

01:17:37.939 --> 01:17:40.770
now what have you got? Nothing, you know, so

01:17:40.770 --> 01:17:43.649
even that conversation is like we are incredible

01:17:43.649 --> 01:17:46.449
human beings with this amazing skill set. Think

01:17:46.449 --> 01:17:48.710
about what else you love doing and go do that.

01:17:48.750 --> 01:17:50.710
You know, be an entrepreneur, work, work for

01:17:50.710 --> 01:17:52.489
someone that you really enjoy working for, whatever

01:17:52.489 --> 01:17:55.630
that looks like. But, you know, pushing against

01:17:55.630 --> 01:18:00.189
really revolutionizing firefighter health because

01:18:00.189 --> 01:18:03.550
you rely on overtime is the completely wrong

01:18:03.550 --> 01:18:06.760
way of thinking about it. You need the money.

01:18:06.960 --> 01:18:09.239
How else can you earn the money? There's a good

01:18:09.239 --> 01:18:11.140
chance you're going to find out you earn more

01:18:11.140 --> 01:18:15.399
doing that than being a firefighter anyway. Definitely.

01:18:15.460 --> 01:18:19.340
And, you know, for the ones that do do other

01:18:19.340 --> 01:18:21.100
jobs outside the fire service, you're generally

01:18:21.100 --> 01:18:23.560
coming home at night, you know, right around

01:18:23.560 --> 01:18:26.380
dinner time. So you're getting that family time

01:18:26.380 --> 01:18:28.939
that you normally wouldn't get. We still have

01:18:28.939 --> 01:18:31.460
overtime. It happens. I mean, that's that's normal.

01:18:31.579 --> 01:18:33.760
Any job you're going to have that's full time,

01:18:33.819 --> 01:18:36.119
you're going to have overtime. But it's not as

01:18:36.119 --> 01:18:40.579
much as what you're used to seeing. You might

01:18:40.579 --> 01:18:43.239
have 12 hours in a two -week period, and it might

01:18:43.239 --> 01:18:46.619
be a month, month and a half before you see another

01:18:46.619 --> 01:18:50.319
12 -hour shift pop up. We are generally normally

01:18:50.319 --> 01:18:53.960
not allowed to do more than 36 hours. And looking

01:18:53.960 --> 01:18:59.140
at a safety standpoint, you're pushing it. If

01:18:59.140 --> 01:19:01.000
you were up the night before and you didn't get

01:19:01.000 --> 01:19:04.050
a chance to lay down during the day at all. because

01:19:04.050 --> 01:19:06.329
let's say you're out on calls all day you know

01:19:06.329 --> 01:19:10.689
that's a big deal um and our chief is very uh

01:19:10.689 --> 01:19:13.930
safety driven has a safety mindset and he's like

01:19:13.930 --> 01:19:16.949
if you're tired go lay down like by all means

01:19:16.949 --> 01:19:20.949
you know get that little safety nap in get yourself

01:19:20.949 --> 01:19:23.850
you know make yourself 100 or at least as close

01:19:23.850 --> 01:19:28.109
to 100 as you can get and i think with you know

01:19:28.109 --> 01:19:31.579
for me Yes, I might work six, seven extra hours

01:19:31.579 --> 01:19:34.699
a day, maybe sometimes an eight -hour day. But

01:19:34.699 --> 01:19:38.520
I have the ability to come home. If my kids are

01:19:38.520 --> 01:19:42.319
with me, I'm with my kids. And you get that kind

01:19:42.319 --> 01:19:44.640
of refreshing, hey, at least I'm at my own house.

01:19:44.920 --> 01:19:47.979
It's not I'm coming off of overtime, coming home,

01:19:48.140 --> 01:19:50.279
putting my kids in bed, and I'm going to bed.

01:19:51.159 --> 01:19:54.260
So it's more of a good little mental reset as

01:19:54.260 --> 01:20:01.439
well. With our schedule, coming off that swing,

01:20:01.619 --> 01:20:05.460
if you had a second job, if you did any in -between

01:20:05.460 --> 01:20:10.159
days, you were beat. You would go three days

01:20:10.159 --> 01:20:13.560
without seeing your kid, potentially, and that

01:20:13.560 --> 01:20:15.520
could be with zero overtime, but a second job.

01:20:18.659 --> 01:20:22.699
I'm a proponent of that I'm going to provide

01:20:22.699 --> 01:20:24.619
for my family, but I'm also going to be there

01:20:24.619 --> 01:20:29.069
for my family. I think too much, Again, my opinion

01:20:29.069 --> 01:20:32.409
only is that if you had asked me 10 years ago,

01:20:33.130 --> 01:20:35.529
you know, you know, what do you do? I've been

01:20:35.529 --> 01:20:37.310
like, I'm a firefighter and I introduced myself

01:20:37.310 --> 01:20:42.649
that way. Now, hi, I'm Patrick, you know, nice

01:20:42.649 --> 01:20:44.890
to meet you. Oh, hey, what do you do? Oh, I work

01:20:44.890 --> 01:20:47.409
for the fire service. Oh, okay. You know, it's

01:20:47.409 --> 01:20:52.250
not what, it's not what defines me. My job is

01:20:52.250 --> 01:20:56.189
not what defines me. I define myself. And, you

01:20:56.189 --> 01:21:01.220
know. That's just a job I do. And I think having

01:21:01.220 --> 01:21:04.399
that positive mindset towards that way of thinking

01:21:04.399 --> 01:21:07.039
takes a little bit of stress off as well as we're

01:21:07.039 --> 01:21:09.859
not letting what we do for work define who we

01:21:09.859 --> 01:21:13.340
are as a person. Absolutely. And that creates

01:21:13.340 --> 01:21:16.739
that kind of positive little note that if you

01:21:16.739 --> 01:21:19.479
do have that bad shift or that bad call, that

01:21:19.479 --> 01:21:24.359
you try to take it personal as much. For us that

01:21:24.359 --> 01:21:28.489
do it, we've all had it. And you do take a little

01:21:28.489 --> 01:21:30.850
bit of a personal hit over a bad call. Whether

01:21:30.850 --> 01:21:33.590
you did everything right and it's a bad outcome,

01:21:33.810 --> 01:21:36.850
you take that little bit of hit. Yeah, I just

01:21:36.850 --> 01:21:38.170
wish I would have turned out different. Well,

01:21:38.329 --> 01:21:42.930
we did the best we could. You know, we didn't

01:21:42.930 --> 01:21:48.510
have a great outcome. That's OK. And just kind

01:21:48.510 --> 01:21:51.310
of keeping that positive mindset in that way,

01:21:51.350 --> 01:21:55.590
I think really that with an extra day to recuperate.

01:21:56.079 --> 01:22:00.840
really seems to make for a more positive environment

01:22:00.840 --> 01:22:04.060
with better morale well you talked as well about

01:22:04.060 --> 01:22:06.500
the 21 extra days not only is there that rest

01:22:06.500 --> 01:22:09.300
and recovery the extra shift between every 24

01:22:09.300 --> 01:22:12.899
but also that's 21 days less that you see trauma

01:22:12.899 --> 01:22:15.560
each year and it's not that any of us are running

01:22:15.560 --> 01:22:18.180
from it but as i've always said this you know

01:22:18.180 --> 01:22:20.720
i was chomping at the bit as a young firefighter

01:22:20.720 --> 01:22:22.479
and then i kind of wisened up a bit as i went

01:22:22.479 --> 01:22:25.600
through There are no medals for seeing the most

01:22:25.600 --> 01:22:28.220
shit. You know, there's a lot of calls where,

01:22:28.300 --> 01:22:30.380
I mean, you know, one of the last calls in my

01:22:30.380 --> 01:22:33.800
second last apartment, you know, it was a missing

01:22:33.800 --> 01:22:37.079
homeless woman. We smelt her before we got there.

01:22:37.180 --> 01:22:39.420
And I told my crew, look, just go back. No one

01:22:39.420 --> 01:22:41.560
else needs to see this. And I went there, you

01:22:41.560 --> 01:22:43.720
know, worked the scene. I mean, it was grotesque.

01:22:43.739 --> 01:22:46.979
There was no possibility she was surviving, you

01:22:46.979 --> 01:22:50.000
know, what I saw. So I go back, tell everyone,

01:22:50.159 --> 01:22:52.100
yeah, you know, obvious signs of death. We're

01:22:52.100 --> 01:22:54.010
done. And they don't have to have that in their

01:22:54.010 --> 01:22:57.369
little mental Rolodex. And I had the same thing

01:22:57.369 --> 01:22:59.750
when I was at Anaheim, but in reverse. We were

01:22:59.750 --> 01:23:02.810
young firefighters. We had a horrendous decapitation

01:23:02.810 --> 01:23:05.310
of a three -year -old in the car wreck. And she

01:23:05.310 --> 01:23:09.649
was entrapped. So we worked the mother who was

01:23:09.649 --> 01:23:11.409
still alive and she was transported. And then

01:23:11.409 --> 01:23:15.510
we went back and it was supposed to go back and

01:23:15.510 --> 01:23:20.210
remove the body for the coroner. And my captain

01:23:20.210 --> 01:23:22.890
and engineer ordered us to stay in the station.

01:23:23.069 --> 01:23:24.970
And we were all, you know, again, our egos were

01:23:24.970 --> 01:23:27.250
going crazy. Like, no, no, no, we're okay. But

01:23:27.250 --> 01:23:29.630
he said, look, you're going to see so many horrible

01:23:29.630 --> 01:23:32.390
things in your life. You do not need to see this.

01:23:32.829 --> 01:23:34.970
And he was absolutely right. Would we be in okay?

01:23:35.170 --> 01:23:38.170
Probably. But was it another, you know, drop

01:23:38.170 --> 01:23:39.869
in that bucket or however you want to use the

01:23:39.869 --> 01:23:42.449
analogy, rock in the backpack? Absolutely. It

01:23:42.449 --> 01:23:46.649
would have been. So 21 shifts less of trauma

01:23:46.649 --> 01:23:50.539
exposure. and 21 shifts more rest and recovery,

01:23:50.880 --> 01:23:52.899
when we're talking the mental health equation,

01:23:53.260 --> 01:23:58.800
that is a huge impact on that conversation. Absolutely.

01:23:59.560 --> 01:24:03.560
I had the same situations as you. Literally,

01:24:03.659 --> 01:24:05.859
as a young medic, I had a guy on a suicide be

01:24:05.859 --> 01:24:08.579
like, just stay in the truck. I'll go in. I'll

01:24:08.579 --> 01:24:10.659
do what I need to do. You don't need to see that.

01:24:12.279 --> 01:24:16.659
Vice versa, a month and a half ago, we had a...

01:24:17.150 --> 01:24:20.149
person down unknown walk in the room i'm like

01:24:20.149 --> 01:24:22.569
you guys just stay at the door like again same

01:24:22.569 --> 01:24:25.069
same thought you don't need to see it it's one

01:24:25.069 --> 01:24:29.550
less thing and that yes we're taking on extra

01:24:29.550 --> 01:24:31.609
burden by being the person that says that because

01:24:31.609 --> 01:24:33.029
now we're seeing it but we've seen it before

01:24:33.029 --> 01:24:35.670
you know this is one where maybe we've seen it

01:24:35.670 --> 01:24:38.689
before and you're like okay and then you you

01:24:38.689 --> 01:24:40.689
have the ability to self -reflect and look and

01:24:40.689 --> 01:24:43.479
go did it affect me did it bother me Or we have

01:24:43.479 --> 01:24:45.340
that out to talk to somebody like, hey, we had

01:24:45.340 --> 01:24:48.819
this deceased person today. This is what it was.

01:24:49.079 --> 01:24:51.140
They were down for at least a day. It wasn't

01:24:51.140 --> 01:24:53.199
the best thing. I just need to get that off my

01:24:53.199 --> 01:24:56.220
chest. Well, we also had the capacity to see

01:24:56.220 --> 01:24:58.760
one more person because someone told us not to

01:24:58.760 --> 01:25:01.300
see that person. You see what I'm saying? So

01:25:01.300 --> 01:25:03.279
we didn't see all the things as young people

01:25:03.279 --> 01:25:07.149
and then all the things as older. We were under

01:25:07.149 --> 01:25:09.449
good leaders that told us not to go and see certain

01:25:09.449 --> 01:25:11.489
things. And I think that gave us more latitude

01:25:11.489 --> 01:25:13.949
to then be the person that does see them and

01:25:13.949 --> 01:25:16.930
tell the next young person not to. Absolutely.

01:25:19.890 --> 01:25:21.930
There's been a few times I can think of over

01:25:21.930 --> 01:25:24.609
my career where I'm glad I didn't have to see

01:25:24.609 --> 01:25:29.529
some things. And I've heard stories about other

01:25:29.529 --> 01:25:32.770
calls that I was glad I wasn't on. And that's

01:25:32.770 --> 01:25:35.380
been recently. Where I was like, man, if I was

01:25:35.380 --> 01:25:37.560
actually working today, like that would have

01:25:37.560 --> 01:25:41.060
been really bad. And knowing how I would react

01:25:41.060 --> 01:25:44.319
because it would trigger something. And so, yes,

01:25:44.340 --> 01:25:47.500
on both sides, it's a good and bad thing. You

01:25:47.500 --> 01:25:49.659
know, you know, not all your limits, but you

01:25:49.659 --> 01:25:51.659
also have the ability, the capacity to take one

01:25:51.659 --> 01:25:54.020
more because there was, like you said, because

01:25:54.020 --> 01:25:56.760
there was one less. And then you're also now

01:25:56.760 --> 01:26:00.319
you're teaching the younger generation. It's

01:26:00.319 --> 01:26:02.100
OK as you get older to take one more because

01:26:02.100 --> 01:26:06.390
you took one less. Yeah, absolutely. It definitely

01:26:06.390 --> 01:26:09.649
teaches that right. Uh, progressional, I guess

01:26:09.649 --> 01:26:12.390
we could call it progressional mindset of, you

01:26:12.390 --> 01:26:14.550
know, help them out when they're younger so that

01:26:14.550 --> 01:26:16.229
when they're older, you know, they have that

01:26:16.229 --> 01:26:18.949
capacity. Yeah. And teach them. It's okay to

01:26:18.949 --> 01:26:20.670
just not see if you don't need to be in there,

01:26:20.710 --> 01:26:22.470
you don't need to see it. You know, these guys,

01:26:22.489 --> 01:26:24.310
I mean, sadly, luckily I haven't been around

01:26:24.310 --> 01:26:25.770
many people like this, but you know, the ones

01:26:25.770 --> 01:26:27.390
that take pictures at car wrecks and all those

01:26:27.390 --> 01:26:29.649
kinds of things, like it's a badge of honor to

01:26:29.649 --> 01:26:31.930
be able to see it. Like, no. I guarantee you,

01:26:31.930 --> 01:26:33.670
you're going to be the one that's really going

01:26:33.670 --> 01:26:36.069
to be hurting in a few years because, you know,

01:26:36.090 --> 01:26:38.909
if you feel you need to validate your own ego

01:26:38.909 --> 01:26:41.229
by walking around telling everyone how horrific

01:26:41.229 --> 01:26:43.810
the call was, it's probably an indication that

01:26:43.810 --> 01:26:46.489
you actually are starting to struggle. So I think

01:26:46.489 --> 01:26:49.409
it takes a grounded, humble, young firefighter

01:26:49.409 --> 01:26:52.770
to listen to an experienced medic and go, OK,

01:26:52.909 --> 01:26:55.489
you know, I trust you. I won't see that. Thank

01:26:55.489 --> 01:26:57.430
you. And then, like you said, fast forward 10

01:26:57.430 --> 01:26:59.909
years. Now you're that medic shielding. other

01:26:59.909 --> 01:27:07.689
young people from it yeah um the ability to teach

01:27:07.689 --> 01:27:10.529
without teaching right you could call it you're

01:27:10.529 --> 01:27:16.630
teaching them how to uh maybe take something

01:27:16.630 --> 01:27:20.229
away from them having to be seen but also that

01:27:20.229 --> 01:27:21.930
later in your career hey you might have this

01:27:21.930 --> 01:27:24.810
happen again you know pass it on pass it forward

01:27:25.630 --> 01:27:28.010
We do that in all different forms, whether it's

01:27:28.010 --> 01:27:30.729
a deceased person, it's that bad call. But also

01:27:30.729 --> 01:27:34.130
there's the old adage of, hey, this is a crime

01:27:34.130 --> 01:27:36.850
scene until proven otherwise. So now you're actually

01:27:36.850 --> 01:27:38.630
doing two jobs. You're preserving the scene.

01:27:38.829 --> 01:27:40.810
You're not, you know, the detectives come and

01:27:40.810 --> 01:27:42.590
do their thing. Law enforcement can handle their

01:27:42.590 --> 01:27:45.390
side of it. And there wasn't a whole bunch of

01:27:45.390 --> 01:27:49.149
extra personnel in there as well. And if it unfortunately

01:27:49.149 --> 01:27:51.609
was something bad, you know, they don't have

01:27:51.609 --> 01:27:54.689
to deal with getting drug in the court. Over

01:27:54.689 --> 01:27:57.619
it. So you kind of take on that responsibility

01:27:57.619 --> 01:28:02.460
when you do that, but you're also in turn helping

01:28:02.460 --> 01:28:05.779
them physically and mentally by not overloading

01:28:05.779 --> 01:28:11.380
that container. Because we can only take so much.

01:28:11.500 --> 01:28:14.920
And for everybody, that's different. I've seen

01:28:14.920 --> 01:28:18.439
where the first call, first traumatic call person

01:28:18.439 --> 01:28:21.250
was on, they were done. That was all it took.

01:28:21.409 --> 01:28:24.649
I can't do this to where you get, you know, we

01:28:24.649 --> 01:28:26.630
call them the old salty dogs. You know, the guys

01:28:26.630 --> 01:28:28.329
that back in the day that could see whatever,

01:28:28.409 --> 01:28:31.090
just walk away like nothing was wrong for their

01:28:31.090 --> 01:28:35.189
whole life and just held it in. You see both

01:28:35.189 --> 01:28:38.829
sides of it and then anything in between. I have

01:28:38.829 --> 01:28:42.250
definitely learned that passing on the knowledge

01:28:42.250 --> 01:28:44.310
you've learned about self -care, especially after

01:28:44.310 --> 01:28:48.750
calls, is way more important than trying to be

01:28:48.750 --> 01:28:52.409
tough or look tough. It isn't. And asking for

01:28:52.409 --> 01:28:54.369
help or asking just to talk to somebody is okay.

01:28:54.810 --> 01:28:57.630
And that's the important thing is teaching, getting

01:28:57.630 --> 01:29:00.390
the information out there that teach these, the

01:29:00.390 --> 01:29:02.930
younger firefighters, younger medics, even young

01:29:02.930 --> 01:29:06.890
cops, the same thing of it's okay to talk to

01:29:06.890 --> 01:29:10.529
somebody about what you see because it's going

01:29:10.529 --> 01:29:16.350
to help you in the long run. Yeah, absolutely.

01:29:17.079 --> 01:29:20.340
Well, going back to the actual shift pattern,

01:29:20.539 --> 01:29:24.579
when you need to work on overtime or when you're

01:29:24.579 --> 01:29:27.000
doing a time trade, for example, or a shift swap,

01:29:27.300 --> 01:29:30.800
when I think about the old California one, a

01:29:30.800 --> 01:29:32.840
lot of times that pretty much guaranteed either

01:29:32.840 --> 01:29:38.539
a 48 or even a 72. With the 24 -72, I can see

01:29:38.539 --> 01:29:41.079
how there's a potential where you would... Go

01:29:41.079 --> 01:29:43.520
off for one shift and then come on to work that

01:29:43.520 --> 01:29:45.819
trade or that overtime and then be off again.

01:29:46.119 --> 01:29:49.100
So you don't have to actually do a 48 anymore.

01:29:49.279 --> 01:29:53.720
Is that the case? It just depends on who you

01:29:53.720 --> 01:29:57.899
trade with and how the overtime would fall. But

01:29:57.899 --> 01:30:01.159
yes, there is that chance that you could be off

01:30:01.159 --> 01:30:04.659
a shift and back on. But the positive side of

01:30:04.659 --> 01:30:06.899
that is, even though two days later after that

01:30:06.899 --> 01:30:08.659
shift, you're back on, is then you still have

01:30:08.659 --> 01:30:12.369
three days off after that. Yeah. So you get both

01:30:12.369 --> 01:30:14.470
sides. Yes, I might have to work an extra day

01:30:14.470 --> 01:30:18.069
this month or an extra shift or whatever. It

01:30:18.069 --> 01:30:21.409
might be half a shift, but I still have that

01:30:21.409 --> 01:30:24.170
ability to come off shift then after my next

01:30:24.170 --> 01:30:27.029
normal shift and have my total time off. So even

01:30:27.029 --> 01:30:29.489
though you did pick up a shift or work a shift

01:30:29.489 --> 01:30:33.909
or trade a shift, you still have, you know, the

01:30:33.909 --> 01:30:37.170
few extra days a month to recover. And that truly

01:30:37.170 --> 01:30:43.180
is a positive. side of that rotation is, you

01:30:43.180 --> 01:30:45.500
know, like the 36 hour timeline with overtime.

01:30:45.720 --> 01:30:48.239
Like once you're there, you're done. You shouldn't

01:30:48.239 --> 01:30:53.819
work over 36 or, um, Hey, if you worked an overtime

01:30:53.819 --> 01:30:56.859
shift in this, in this two weeks, maybe you shouldn't

01:30:56.859 --> 01:30:59.699
pick up another one. You know, this have that

01:30:59.699 --> 01:31:02.159
ability that somebody tell you, Hey, hard stop.

01:31:02.239 --> 01:31:06.869
No. Or, you know, hey you probably shouldn't

01:31:06.869 --> 01:31:10.170
work that like we have a rotational list so i

01:31:10.170 --> 01:31:13.130
can't pick up today and then three days from

01:31:13.130 --> 01:31:15.970
now pick up another one there's there's somebody

01:31:15.970 --> 01:31:18.050
in there that's going to pick up it's going to

01:31:18.050 --> 01:31:21.170
be ahead of me which forces me to step back i

01:31:21.170 --> 01:31:24.369
think things like that protects us from ourselves

01:31:24.369 --> 01:31:30.289
um because i mean i do love my job i love the

01:31:30.289 --> 01:31:34.920
people i work with so you know oh i get to go

01:31:34.920 --> 01:31:37.159
and i could go into work an extra day that's

01:31:37.159 --> 01:31:39.739
all fine and dandy but what's that toll take

01:31:39.739 --> 01:31:42.460
on me so it's a double -edged sword when you

01:31:42.460 --> 01:31:46.699
look at the amount of ability we have to go in

01:31:46.699 --> 01:31:49.960
to do our job versus what's really good for us

01:31:49.960 --> 01:31:54.840
yeah 100 one more question before we go to mental

01:31:54.840 --> 01:31:57.760
health and save a warrior When I think about

01:31:57.760 --> 01:32:00.880
the 24 -48, obviously you've got, you know, let's

01:32:00.880 --> 01:32:03.539
say your A shift and, you know, C shift has just

01:32:03.539 --> 01:32:05.699
left, B shift is coming on tomorrow morning.

01:32:06.159 --> 01:32:08.119
And, you know, I think of some of the shift wars

01:32:08.119 --> 01:32:11.539
and tensions. Now you put an extra shift in between.

01:32:12.090 --> 01:32:15.130
where it's not maybe directly the shift before

01:32:15.130 --> 01:32:17.989
or shift after. What impact does that have, if

01:32:17.989 --> 01:32:20.689
any at all, on the tension between the shifts,

01:32:20.710 --> 01:32:22.529
which I know is usually the quiet stations, the

01:32:22.529 --> 01:32:24.710
busy ones just get on with their job. But have

01:32:24.710 --> 01:32:28.289
you noticed any difference between previous tensions

01:32:28.289 --> 01:32:31.649
of shifts, a .k .a. shift wars and the 24 -72?

01:32:34.029 --> 01:32:36.090
No real shift wars. I mean, everybody, you're

01:32:36.090 --> 01:32:37.949
going to have tension. It doesn't matter sometimes.

01:32:38.729 --> 01:32:40.729
A lot of times you'll have fun. I mean, like

01:32:40.729 --> 01:32:43.670
we'll see some. So for me, I'm shift three. So

01:32:43.670 --> 01:32:47.149
I don't ever see shift one. I just don't see

01:32:47.149 --> 01:32:50.250
them unless I pick up overtime or one of us works

01:32:50.250 --> 01:32:56.989
a trade. And not really tension. I mean, there's

01:32:56.989 --> 01:32:58.770
definitely your morning. Sometimes you'll have

01:32:58.770 --> 01:33:02.510
your morning struggles. You know, maybe a rig

01:33:02.510 --> 01:33:04.710
got left low on fuel. Now I got to go fuel it.

01:33:05.130 --> 01:33:10.340
It happens. you'll have that happen. But generally,

01:33:10.420 --> 01:33:12.800
it's still like the old 24 -48 adage. It's a

01:33:12.800 --> 01:33:14.560
shift before, a shift after. It's never that

01:33:14.560 --> 01:33:19.079
oddball shift. I always laugh because I'll joke

01:33:19.079 --> 01:33:22.720
around that, you know, let's say I left, let's

01:33:22.720 --> 01:33:24.739
say a small jug of orange juice in the fridge.

01:33:24.800 --> 01:33:27.439
Well, we share a fridge with shift one. Now my

01:33:27.439 --> 01:33:30.800
orange juice is gone. Well, who took it? You

01:33:30.800 --> 01:33:36.010
know, it's fun banner. Nobody really takes. That

01:33:36.010 --> 01:33:38.010
the heart, but I don't think there's with this.

01:33:38.069 --> 01:33:40.289
I don't think there's as much of that shift war

01:33:40.289 --> 01:33:43.590
going on because everybody has a shift they don't

01:33:43.590 --> 01:33:48.050
see. So I think that promotes and then promoting

01:33:48.050 --> 01:33:50.630
a good positive environment as our chief does.

01:33:50.750 --> 01:33:52.510
I don't think you have that much. I think things

01:33:52.510 --> 01:33:56.409
get worked out on their own a lot easier. You

01:33:56.409 --> 01:34:00.470
know, the ability to be like, hey, making up

01:34:00.470 --> 01:34:03.029
a name, Charles, dude, last shift, you forgot

01:34:03.029 --> 01:34:05.439
to feel the medic before you left. you know,

01:34:05.439 --> 01:34:08.359
on your last call. Can you help me out next time

01:34:08.359 --> 01:34:09.760
so I don't have to do it when I come into work?

01:34:10.260 --> 01:34:12.960
Yeah, no problem. I think that alleviates some

01:34:12.960 --> 01:34:14.800
of that tension between the shifts because you

01:34:14.800 --> 01:34:18.319
have now that more open dialogue to be able to

01:34:18.319 --> 01:34:22.439
just talk to each other. It's not always, you

01:34:22.439 --> 01:34:24.920
don't get that stereotype that, you know, it's

01:34:24.920 --> 01:34:26.920
B shift that always does the bad shift, you know,

01:34:26.920 --> 01:34:29.199
or C shifts the clowns or A shifts the strict

01:34:29.199 --> 01:34:31.560
guys. You just don't get that back and forth.

01:34:32.119 --> 01:34:35.560
Well, I would imagine as well. With just a more

01:34:35.560 --> 01:34:38.880
rested department that is not being forced and

01:34:38.880 --> 01:34:42.100
or volunteering to fill immense amounts of overtime

01:34:42.100 --> 01:34:46.500
and gets an extra shift between shifts that you

01:34:46.500 --> 01:34:48.640
probably just have a better environment because

01:34:48.640 --> 01:34:50.579
everyone's coming in less burnt out and more

01:34:50.579 --> 01:34:58.680
rested. Definitely. It seems like that the extra

01:34:58.680 --> 01:35:01.840
rest gives you a different mindset as well. I

01:35:01.840 --> 01:35:05.520
know for me that does. If I can get in my own

01:35:05.520 --> 01:35:09.079
bed for three nights, I'm a lot better than if

01:35:09.079 --> 01:35:12.619
I'm in my own bed for two. Because usually what

01:35:12.619 --> 01:35:16.760
I'm finding out is that I've been watching my

01:35:16.760 --> 01:35:20.560
sleep, my sleep patterns. And the first night

01:35:20.560 --> 01:35:26.420
home, I sleep at about 50%. And then I get 75

01:35:26.420 --> 01:35:30.880
and then 90, 95 % by the, you know, by the end

01:35:30.880 --> 01:35:34.239
before I go in the shift. And I also tend to

01:35:34.239 --> 01:35:39.159
trend towards getting the bed earlier by my third

01:35:39.159 --> 01:35:42.319
off day. I just, you can kind of trend yourself

01:35:42.319 --> 01:35:44.819
down to where now I might not get a full eight,

01:35:44.899 --> 01:35:49.399
but I'm at least at seven. I think that having

01:35:49.399 --> 01:35:52.539
that extra day, you know, with, especially with

01:35:52.539 --> 01:35:58.399
tracking my sleep, that I've noticed it to where

01:35:58.399 --> 01:36:04.630
that work, I don't sleep well. I think it's just

01:36:04.630 --> 01:36:06.550
a fact of years of running calls in the middle

01:36:06.550 --> 01:36:09.630
of the night. My body's just entrained that when

01:36:09.630 --> 01:36:11.430
you're in a building that is a fire station,

01:36:11.729 --> 01:36:14.210
you're going to get toned out. So you don't fully

01:36:14.210 --> 01:36:17.310
fall asleep. I know the nights I do because I

01:36:17.310 --> 01:36:19.789
can't see straight for the first 30 seconds I'm

01:36:19.789 --> 01:36:25.850
awake. It doesn't happen often. And I know that

01:36:25.850 --> 01:36:30.869
when I get home the next day, that usually. it's

01:36:30.869 --> 01:36:34.170
not as sound of a sleep as my normal sleep, but

01:36:34.170 --> 01:36:36.590
I'm better because your body's still kind of

01:36:36.590 --> 01:36:39.109
just readjusting to the environment you're in.

01:36:39.210 --> 01:36:41.510
And then usually by day three of being off that,

01:36:41.569 --> 01:36:45.409
like I said, I'm about 90 % heavy sleep pattern

01:36:45.409 --> 01:36:48.470
and I am fully refreshed going into my shift.

01:36:49.649 --> 01:36:52.939
I never thought about the. perspective that you

01:36:52.939 --> 01:36:55.760
just gave on the quality of sleep in the station

01:36:55.760 --> 01:36:57.819
i've talked about many many times that we never

01:36:57.819 --> 01:36:59.859
get into deep sleep and it's understandable because

01:36:59.859 --> 01:37:02.359
i say you're waiting to get woken up but if you

01:37:02.359 --> 01:37:05.779
think about conditioning you know learning if

01:37:05.779 --> 01:37:08.699
over and over again you say the moment you wake

01:37:08.699 --> 01:37:12.340
up in your case you've got to run to the driver's

01:37:12.340 --> 01:37:15.699
seat of a rig and navigate code three and then

01:37:15.699 --> 01:37:17.439
you know maybe put up the aerial or whatever

01:37:17.439 --> 01:37:20.760
the next job is from a dead sleep within i mean

01:37:20.760 --> 01:37:23.439
we're not exaggerating when we say 60 90 seconds

01:37:23.439 --> 01:37:26.000
when we look at our you know bed to door time

01:37:26.000 --> 01:37:27.659
that's supposed to be what we know what we're

01:37:27.659 --> 01:37:30.340
doing or the firefighters bunkering up and thinking

01:37:30.340 --> 01:37:32.600
about right you know okay person's in trap what

01:37:32.600 --> 01:37:34.119
am i going to do you know where's the ladder

01:37:34.119 --> 01:37:38.319
etc etc if you do that over and over again and

01:37:38.319 --> 01:37:40.359
obviously there's varying degrees of stress now

01:37:40.359 --> 01:37:43.420
it's a you know tummy ache times four days so

01:37:43.420 --> 01:37:45.100
you know you've got through the roof and then

01:37:45.100 --> 01:37:47.569
you're like oh it's only this Of course, you're

01:37:47.569 --> 01:37:49.649
not going to have a good quality of sleep because

01:37:49.649 --> 01:37:51.729
your body is going to learn or your brain is

01:37:51.729 --> 01:37:53.369
going to learn. Look, don't go to sleep fully

01:37:53.369 --> 01:37:55.590
because we can't afford to be cross -eyed for

01:37:55.590 --> 01:37:58.069
30 seconds when we wake up. I need you to wake

01:37:58.069 --> 01:38:00.510
up and then, you know, shake your head and now

01:38:00.510 --> 01:38:04.050
start driving through, you know, traffic. So,

01:38:04.050 --> 01:38:06.029
you know, it makes sense on so many different

01:38:06.029 --> 01:38:09.460
levels. But even that, there's a learning. to

01:38:09.460 --> 01:38:11.880
not sleep deeply on top of the stress factor

01:38:11.880 --> 01:38:14.880
because how many other professions, aside from

01:38:14.880 --> 01:38:17.319
someone in a garrison somewhere that gets attacked,

01:38:17.699 --> 01:38:21.460
goes from a dead sleep to operating at possibly

01:38:21.460 --> 01:38:26.159
100 % within a few seconds. So again, what we

01:38:26.159 --> 01:38:29.340
are asking our first responders to do is such

01:38:29.340 --> 01:38:33.579
an anomaly, and yet we work them 16 hours more

01:38:33.579 --> 01:38:36.899
than the person in the bank. It's so, so backwards.

01:38:37.630 --> 01:38:40.869
So at least getting this extra 24 so that you

01:38:40.869 --> 01:38:44.529
can recover from that arguably sleepless or very,

01:38:44.590 --> 01:38:47.609
very sleep disturbed sleep. Even if you didn't

01:38:47.609 --> 01:38:49.750
run a lot of calls in the night that night, you

01:38:49.750 --> 01:38:51.930
know, that 72 hours and you're speaking about

01:38:51.930 --> 01:38:53.930
observationally now and there's a Swedish study

01:38:53.930 --> 01:38:55.930
that showed it, you know, from a data point of

01:38:55.930 --> 01:38:58.270
view. Of course, it makes perfect sense because

01:38:58.270 --> 01:39:00.750
you're never, ever going to get a truly good

01:39:00.750 --> 01:39:05.029
night's sleep in a fire station. I know that.

01:39:05.390 --> 01:39:07.390
so last night I was, I came off shift this morning.

01:39:07.810 --> 01:39:11.689
Um, I will be honest. I didn't run a call all

01:39:11.689 --> 01:39:14.710
night. We did not have a call all night long,

01:39:14.789 --> 01:39:18.930
which is a rare for us. And I slept crappy, probably

01:39:18.930 --> 01:39:22.470
woke up four times. Um, I think it, you know,

01:39:22.489 --> 01:39:26.510
I've seen it myself. Um, and you know, we're

01:39:26.510 --> 01:39:28.810
going, we're going this route next with our conversation,

01:39:28.970 --> 01:39:31.250
but, um, looking into the mental health side

01:39:31.250 --> 01:39:34.819
of things, I have, I was like, man, I, I read

01:39:34.819 --> 01:39:36.520
the sleep study you were talking about, the Swedish

01:39:36.520 --> 01:39:40.579
study. And I'm like, there really isn't much

01:39:40.579 --> 01:39:44.760
out there that really gives us good data on it.

01:39:45.060 --> 01:39:49.479
There's just, it's hard viewpoints. And I'm like,

01:39:49.619 --> 01:39:51.539
you know, I'm going to make myself a spreadsheet.

01:39:52.279 --> 01:39:55.579
So I made myself a spreadsheet and different,

01:39:55.680 --> 01:39:57.720
you know, different data points of how many calls

01:39:57.720 --> 01:40:00.020
did you have? What apparatus were you on? You

01:40:00.020 --> 01:40:03.859
know, was it a work day or is it at home? how

01:40:03.859 --> 01:40:06.739
many hours did you sleep? Was it broken? And

01:40:06.739 --> 01:40:09.039
then at the same time, I'm like, man, I bet some

01:40:09.039 --> 01:40:10.600
of my friends would do this with me that I work,

01:40:10.619 --> 01:40:12.859
you know, no. So I'm like, I posted on Facebook.

01:40:12.979 --> 01:40:14.500
I'm like, hey, anybody want to help me? I'm going

01:40:14.500 --> 01:40:17.140
to do an amateur sleep study. If you have a watch

01:40:17.140 --> 01:40:19.340
that can track your sleep, that's all I'm looking

01:40:19.340 --> 01:40:21.880
for is a way to track it. And I'm still getting

01:40:21.880 --> 01:40:26.180
sheets in, but there was six people total, if

01:40:26.180 --> 01:40:30.000
you count myself, a 40 -hour shift, a 24 -72,

01:40:30.500 --> 01:40:36.109
24 -48. a Cali swing. And then I actually have

01:40:36.109 --> 01:40:38.810
a buddy that's at Charleston, South Carolina.

01:40:39.350 --> 01:40:41.390
I've known him since I was a kid and they're

01:40:41.390 --> 01:40:43.390
getting to do their own version of a different

01:40:43.390 --> 01:40:46.130
shift. And so he's doing a couple months of it

01:40:46.130 --> 01:40:48.130
for me. And then eventually I'll compute all

01:40:48.130 --> 01:40:51.170
the data and figure out, is it just me? Which

01:40:51.170 --> 01:40:53.430
I'm going to find out probably not, you know,

01:40:53.430 --> 01:40:55.970
but look at how is it when we're coming off duty

01:40:55.970 --> 01:40:59.649
versus how's our first night at home? Did we

01:40:59.649 --> 01:41:02.109
get eight hours when we tried? Was it broken?

01:41:02.750 --> 01:41:04.569
You know, is it because we're going on calls

01:41:04.569 --> 01:41:06.949
in the middle of the night that we get, you know,

01:41:06.949 --> 01:41:08.590
you get in tune that just going on calls all

01:41:08.590 --> 01:41:11.229
the time, your body just gets used to it. Like

01:41:11.229 --> 01:41:12.810
I said, I don't sleep good at the station because

01:41:12.810 --> 01:41:16.949
I don't sleep heavy. And there's nights that

01:41:16.949 --> 01:41:20.529
I'll wake up before the tone goes off because

01:41:20.529 --> 01:41:22.390
the light comes on first. The red light comes

01:41:22.390 --> 01:41:25.850
on in our bunk rooms. I'll wake up to the light

01:41:25.850 --> 01:41:29.329
and then the tones go off. And why is that? It's

01:41:29.329 --> 01:41:31.720
because I'm not sleeping heavy. my body senses

01:41:31.720 --> 01:41:37.500
a change and it wakes up. So I think that having

01:41:37.500 --> 01:41:39.600
that extra day, like I said, I start trending

01:41:39.600 --> 01:41:42.500
upward with my sleep pattern, allows me to physically

01:41:42.500 --> 01:41:45.539
and mentally recover before my next shift. And

01:41:45.539 --> 01:41:47.560
yes, there's going to be days where maybe you

01:41:47.560 --> 01:41:50.619
work a shift overnight. It is what it is. You

01:41:50.619 --> 01:41:53.859
just have to have that ability to know that maybe

01:41:53.859 --> 01:41:55.600
if you're going to work that overtime shift that

01:41:55.600 --> 01:41:57.300
the next day you got to dedicate four or five

01:41:57.300 --> 01:41:59.880
hours that next morning to taking a nap or getting

01:41:59.880 --> 01:42:03.300
some extra sleep or some sort of self -care that

01:42:03.300 --> 01:42:05.560
makes up a little bit for that day you missed.

01:42:07.020 --> 01:42:11.220
And that definitely takes some commitment to

01:42:11.220 --> 01:42:14.699
understanding that. Well, you mentioned the line

01:42:14.699 --> 01:42:17.359
of duty death, and I'm not saying this is a factor

01:42:17.359 --> 01:42:19.859
in it, but I mean, I'm sure that had an impact

01:42:19.859 --> 01:42:21.619
in itself. I don't know if you want to elaborate

01:42:21.619 --> 01:42:24.500
on that specifically, but also kind of walk me

01:42:24.500 --> 01:42:28.779
through how you got to your lowest place. And

01:42:28.779 --> 01:42:32.840
then what were the unique toolbox tools that

01:42:32.840 --> 01:42:35.939
you accumulated yourself to get that post -traumatic

01:42:35.939 --> 01:42:39.779
growth on the other side? So it wasn't actually

01:42:39.779 --> 01:42:43.130
a line of duty death. It was a. a firefighter

01:42:43.130 --> 01:42:45.369
that was in an automobile accident involving

01:42:45.369 --> 01:42:51.350
a semi. But over my career, I've been on multiple

01:42:51.350 --> 01:42:56.850
cardiac arrests like most of us have. And I did

01:42:56.850 --> 01:43:00.510
notice that when especially my son was younger

01:43:00.510 --> 01:43:04.270
is when them started hitting. So now I'm associating

01:43:04.270 --> 01:43:08.130
them with my own kid that has nothing to do with

01:43:08.130 --> 01:43:10.520
it. It's just. That's how you're associating

01:43:10.520 --> 01:43:12.739
a small child with a small child. That's your

01:43:12.739 --> 01:43:15.880
child. You know, and growing up not talking about

01:43:15.880 --> 01:43:18.680
it, I would come home and be like, hey, I had

01:43:18.680 --> 01:43:21.779
a bad shift today, you know, just so you know,

01:43:21.779 --> 01:43:23.819
I had a bad shift last night. Never said a word

01:43:23.819 --> 01:43:29.539
to anybody. I had another shift that kind of

01:43:29.539 --> 01:43:35.119
led, started me down the bad trail that a close

01:43:35.119 --> 01:43:40.270
friend of mine. child had a SIDS episode. And

01:43:40.270 --> 01:43:43.609
I, at that time, lived close to the station.

01:43:43.689 --> 01:43:45.770
I came in to help cover the station because they

01:43:45.770 --> 01:43:48.750
were, everybody that was working was on the call.

01:43:49.090 --> 01:43:52.310
And we did call back to keep some sort of minimum

01:43:52.310 --> 01:43:54.489
standing or standard of people at the station

01:43:54.489 --> 01:43:56.890
that'll keep the city covered, especially on

01:43:56.890 --> 01:43:58.829
an incident like that, because we were a small

01:43:58.829 --> 01:44:02.390
city. And I ended up going on the call as a medic

01:44:02.390 --> 01:44:06.010
because I needed another paramedic. So now I'm

01:44:06.010 --> 01:44:07.949
working my buddy's kid who I grew up with, or

01:44:07.949 --> 01:44:10.989
he grew up with me knowing him, I should say.

01:44:12.050 --> 01:44:14.210
So I've known this kid since birth. You know,

01:44:14.250 --> 01:44:17.789
he's seven, eight months old, and I'm the one

01:44:17.789 --> 01:44:21.329
doing CPR. So that kind of started, that went

01:44:21.329 --> 01:44:23.130
from, okay, now I got some pediatric cardiac

01:44:23.130 --> 01:44:28.789
arrest to now I'm working on a kid I know. Well,

01:44:28.949 --> 01:44:31.930
my buddy had started to have mental health issues

01:44:31.930 --> 01:44:37.600
of his own. And another time on the medic that's

01:44:37.600 --> 01:44:43.060
on the medic unit. And he had a tent suicide

01:44:43.060 --> 01:44:46.800
attempt. So I ended up taking off and spending

01:44:46.800 --> 01:44:49.380
multiple hours with him at the hospital, talking

01:44:49.380 --> 01:44:52.880
to him. And this went on. I mean, we, I worked

01:44:52.880 --> 01:44:56.039
with him over a year trying to just keep him

01:44:56.039 --> 01:44:57.619
going and he ended up ultimately taking his life.

01:44:58.279 --> 01:45:02.140
So there's one more thing that added to that

01:45:02.140 --> 01:45:08.970
giant, Pile, you know, and I don't know that

01:45:08.970 --> 01:45:10.989
my ex -wife knew how many phone calls I took

01:45:10.989 --> 01:45:15.029
and talked and the amount of time I spent. And

01:45:15.029 --> 01:45:17.930
neither did my coworkers. Nobody knew any of

01:45:17.930 --> 01:45:23.069
this stuff. We held it in. And then came Ben's

01:45:23.069 --> 01:45:27.329
accident. I was the officer in charge of the

01:45:27.329 --> 01:45:32.270
engine that day as a senior firefighter and show

01:45:32.270 --> 01:45:36.729
up. We know it's an overturned semi. Get the

01:45:36.729 --> 01:45:41.449
driver out. Crawl into the passenger seat. Reach

01:45:41.449 --> 01:45:44.689
in. Passenger is deceased. Okay, nope. Something

01:45:44.689 --> 01:45:46.090
not like the first time I've seen this before.

01:45:46.710 --> 01:45:49.069
As we're standing there, we find out it was Ben.

01:45:49.170 --> 01:45:53.510
That was a son of a retiree from the department,

01:45:53.750 --> 01:45:55.149
or grandson of a retiree from the department.

01:45:55.989 --> 01:45:59.069
Son of a, at the time, an auxiliary firefighter

01:45:59.069 --> 01:46:01.869
or a, basically a... what you would consider

01:46:01.869 --> 01:46:06.189
like a paid volunteer. Um, and Ben was also on

01:46:06.189 --> 01:46:07.869
auxiliary at one point and I taught with him.

01:46:08.010 --> 01:46:12.569
So we were pretty close friends and living with

01:46:12.569 --> 01:46:15.789
meaning the thoughts of being the one that pronounced

01:46:15.789 --> 01:46:22.750
him and not ever getting that. Um, and I want

01:46:22.750 --> 01:46:26.810
to say this, not ever letting myself feel that

01:46:26.810 --> 01:46:29.449
and be vulnerable enough to share that with somebody

01:46:29.449 --> 01:46:32.300
and get the right. help to work through that

01:46:32.300 --> 01:46:39.619
problem ultimately led to isolation um being

01:46:39.619 --> 01:46:43.159
angry all the time eventually like i told you

01:46:43.159 --> 01:46:45.439
the beginning you know i basically had an ultimatum

01:46:45.439 --> 01:46:49.659
of get help and you know that led to a pdsd diagnosis

01:46:49.659 --> 01:46:53.319
which during treatment led to anxiety depression

01:46:53.319 --> 01:46:56.020
that popped up while going through emdr treatment

01:46:56.020 --> 01:47:01.420
and i i mean i live with that still now but I

01:47:01.420 --> 01:47:05.739
don't have the reoccurring symptoms, anxiety

01:47:05.739 --> 01:47:11.920
from time to time. But, you know, I have the

01:47:11.920 --> 01:47:13.920
ability now to go, hey, if I feel a pop -up,

01:47:14.020 --> 01:47:16.380
I got to go talk to somebody and get this, whatever

01:47:16.380 --> 01:47:20.699
causes figured out and worked out. And unfortunately,

01:47:21.020 --> 01:47:23.640
when you work in a small town or a small city,

01:47:23.720 --> 01:47:25.659
you're going to have them calls where you run

01:47:25.659 --> 01:47:29.699
on people you know. And unfortunately for me,

01:47:30.119 --> 01:47:33.460
two out of the three calls i was on duty or working

01:47:33.460 --> 01:47:40.319
for and just never said anything to anybody so

01:47:40.319 --> 01:47:42.640
where was the lowest place that you found yourself

01:47:42.640 --> 01:47:45.279
you're getting this repeat hits i mean i can't

01:47:45.279 --> 01:47:46.760
imagine this is the one thing i never had to

01:47:46.760 --> 01:47:49.979
endure i never worked in the city that i lived

01:47:49.979 --> 01:47:51.939
in i always you know a lot of times were like

01:47:51.939 --> 01:47:55.329
70 miles away so i was very detached So, you

01:47:55.329 --> 01:47:57.449
know, you're getting these multiple assaults

01:47:57.449 --> 01:48:00.210
now emotionally, you know, where was the lowest

01:48:00.210 --> 01:48:02.630
point? And then, you know, what was that kind

01:48:02.630 --> 01:48:05.010
of corner for you? How were you able to start

01:48:05.010 --> 01:48:11.430
climbing yourself out again? So, you know, I

01:48:11.430 --> 01:48:14.329
thought I was working through stuff very well.

01:48:15.369 --> 01:48:19.109
And then our divorce happened. It is what it

01:48:19.109 --> 01:48:21.170
is. You know, I don't I don't hold anything against

01:48:21.170 --> 01:48:24.409
her. We get along great now. And that's the plus

01:48:24.409 --> 01:48:28.090
we're doing the best for our kids. But that was

01:48:28.090 --> 01:48:30.989
kind of that last kind of breaking point. Never,

01:48:31.029 --> 01:48:33.649
never went down the road to being suicidal, never

01:48:33.649 --> 01:48:35.649
had any thoughts, but definitely got to a deep

01:48:35.649 --> 01:48:38.270
depression and anxiety state where it was constantly

01:48:38.270 --> 01:48:42.909
one after another. Talk about the fire flight

01:48:42.909 --> 01:48:46.250
mechanism kicking in, you know, you know, at

01:48:46.250 --> 01:48:52.649
that time I was 39, 39. Now I'm going to be a

01:48:52.649 --> 01:48:54.789
single dad. I got younger kids. What am I going

01:48:54.789 --> 01:48:58.170
to do? And all these thoughts start creeping

01:48:58.170 --> 01:49:02.430
in. And it was just a very low point. Even though

01:49:02.430 --> 01:49:05.710
I had a great support system, it was a very low

01:49:05.710 --> 01:49:08.109
point, isolating point for me. And I started

01:49:08.109 --> 01:49:11.350
to isolate more. Just kind of didn't go out with

01:49:11.350 --> 01:49:15.750
people, didn't do things for myself. Very much

01:49:15.750 --> 01:49:19.090
just rotate nothing but around my kids or I would

01:49:19.090 --> 01:49:22.090
just kind of. stay inside, stay away from things,

01:49:22.130 --> 01:49:26.590
never did things I liked. And it wasn't until

01:49:26.590 --> 01:49:30.430
I finally made that decision when I seen the

01:49:30.430 --> 01:49:34.109
hiring process, I've got to make something change

01:49:34.109 --> 01:49:36.430
that I've got to do something different. I'm

01:49:36.430 --> 01:49:39.489
not happy with my life where I'm at and what's

01:49:39.489 --> 01:49:42.210
going on that, that, I mean, that really didn't

01:49:42.210 --> 01:49:48.390
have a change. When I got the letter saying,

01:49:48.609 --> 01:49:53.069
you know, We want to hire you. That was kind

01:49:53.069 --> 01:49:56.149
of that change, that upswing that started. I

01:49:56.149 --> 01:49:59.189
call it the Facebook notice about the hiring

01:49:59.189 --> 01:50:02.489
process was the little voice from above saying,

01:50:02.670 --> 01:50:06.029
hey, you better look into this. And then from

01:50:06.029 --> 01:50:08.270
that point on, it's just slowly been an incline

01:50:08.270 --> 01:50:13.510
instead of a decline. Nothing works fast. I got

01:50:13.510 --> 01:50:17.470
hired in there. You know, kind of I got on a

01:50:17.470 --> 01:50:19.989
shift with my current captain as a big tech rescue

01:50:19.989 --> 01:50:23.430
guy, and I like that stuff. So we all meshed

01:50:23.430 --> 01:50:27.710
really well together really quickly. And I was

01:50:27.710 --> 01:50:29.409
like, man, I really, you know, I went through

01:50:29.409 --> 01:50:32.470
all this. I started to get help again. And I

01:50:32.470 --> 01:50:34.770
really want to be able to look at the peer support

01:50:34.770 --> 01:50:36.770
side. Like it just something drove me to that.

01:50:36.930 --> 01:50:40.350
So I went and got the training. And I was at

01:50:40.350 --> 01:50:45.489
my probationary evaluation. And my chief asked

01:50:45.489 --> 01:50:47.369
me, he goes, what drove you to peer support?

01:50:48.590 --> 01:50:50.689
You know, I see you got really kind of passionate

01:50:50.689 --> 01:50:54.109
for it. What drove you there? And I kind of just

01:50:54.109 --> 01:50:58.970
gave him a glimpse. And he was like, holy cow,

01:50:59.109 --> 01:51:02.770
I never knew that. And he's like, and that's

01:51:02.770 --> 01:51:05.010
where Sable Warrior came in. You know, he's like,

01:51:05.069 --> 01:51:07.710
have you ever heard of this? You know, if you

01:51:07.710 --> 01:51:09.529
want information, reach out to these two guys,

01:51:09.710 --> 01:51:13.659
one of which I knew for. you know for years i'm

01:51:13.659 --> 01:51:16.039
talking a guy i knew for almost 20 years and

01:51:16.039 --> 01:51:20.020
went through the program and when i got a guy

01:51:20.020 --> 01:51:23.579
that's i look up to who's been a mentor now um

01:51:23.579 --> 01:51:27.140
that has nothing but positive influence you know

01:51:27.140 --> 01:51:31.920
for the last six months at this point going look

01:51:31.920 --> 01:51:36.300
into this i i got a computer right away and looked

01:51:36.300 --> 01:51:38.640
into it and i literally submitted application

01:51:38.640 --> 01:51:44.829
that day and It was probably the coolest moment

01:51:44.829 --> 01:51:48.569
after my rostering call when I got to come back

01:51:48.569 --> 01:51:50.710
to work the next shift and walk in the chief's

01:51:50.710 --> 01:51:52.770
office, tapped on the door and said, hey, chief,

01:51:52.789 --> 01:51:54.050
got something to tell you. And he's like, what?

01:51:54.170 --> 01:51:57.470
And I told him, he's like, that's awesome. And

01:51:57.470 --> 01:52:01.029
that was really the upswinging point where that

01:52:01.029 --> 01:52:04.109
kind of hill started to go really at that nice

01:52:04.109 --> 01:52:07.829
steep incline in my life as far as positive outcomes.

01:52:08.289 --> 01:52:11.479
And ever since then, it's just been. Living the

01:52:11.479 --> 01:52:14.640
life that I never knew I could live with a different

01:52:14.640 --> 01:52:19.340
mindset than I ever knew I could have. And finding

01:52:19.340 --> 01:52:22.340
out that it wasn't just work, you know, some

01:52:22.340 --> 01:52:25.659
stuff from childhood got brought back up. It

01:52:25.659 --> 01:52:28.140
is what it is. I was, you know, for a while I

01:52:28.140 --> 01:52:29.859
was bullied in school and never thought anything

01:52:29.859 --> 01:52:33.600
of it. It just, it led to a lot of my actions,

01:52:33.680 --> 01:52:36.859
the way I perceive myself or presented myself

01:52:36.859 --> 01:52:40.600
or try to fit in. which ultimately led me down

01:52:40.600 --> 01:52:44.220
a path that, you know, again, learning not to

01:52:44.220 --> 01:52:46.420
talk to somebody about the bad stuff we see.

01:52:46.640 --> 01:52:49.239
Well, that's a pride thing. I didn't need to

01:52:49.239 --> 01:52:52.300
have pride. I need to look out for myself. And

01:52:52.300 --> 01:52:55.920
I have, this is my story that I just shared is

01:52:55.920 --> 01:52:57.680
something I will share with anybody that asks.

01:52:58.199 --> 01:53:02.180
And I'm not, I'm not ashamed of it. I, it's something

01:53:02.180 --> 01:53:05.220
I went through. I continue to do work every day.

01:53:05.520 --> 01:53:10.939
It's not easy. I still have bad days, but I know

01:53:10.939 --> 01:53:12.659
how to handle them and I have the resources to

01:53:12.659 --> 01:53:14.520
handle them. I have the phone numbers to handle

01:53:14.520 --> 01:53:20.939
them. And that's the key for me is knowing that

01:53:20.939 --> 01:53:24.539
continuing a daily pattern, each day is the same

01:53:24.539 --> 01:53:27.220
but different, that I have a routine every day,

01:53:27.359 --> 01:53:31.560
that that helps promote positively every day.

01:53:31.640 --> 01:53:34.579
And staying positive no matter what the day brings

01:53:34.579 --> 01:53:38.619
you really just changes your whole outlook. on

01:53:38.619 --> 01:53:41.819
everything you do you know from from hating going

01:53:41.819 --> 01:53:49.100
to work to now i go in excited that's huge and

01:53:49.100 --> 01:53:53.739
that for me was kind of the whole story of how

01:53:53.739 --> 01:53:56.739
things you know went through i'm sure i've missed

01:53:56.739 --> 01:53:59.680
a few events in there you know like i said my

01:53:59.680 --> 01:54:01.779
my box was more than full it was overflowing

01:54:01.779 --> 01:54:06.840
and I just finally had a breaking point of like,

01:54:06.880 --> 01:54:08.520
I've got to do something different. That was

01:54:08.520 --> 01:54:10.920
my breaking point. My body physically said, you've

01:54:10.920 --> 01:54:15.680
got to do something different. So it took that

01:54:15.680 --> 01:54:17.560
and kind of a little bit of courage to be like,

01:54:17.619 --> 01:54:19.800
I'm leaving. I'm going to leave this place after

01:54:19.800 --> 01:54:24.720
18 and a half years. On the back to probation.

01:54:24.960 --> 01:54:27.920
What the heck? Why not? And it was the best decision

01:54:27.920 --> 01:54:31.800
I've ever made. Well, a couple of things. Firstly.

01:54:32.520 --> 01:54:35.380
And I've made this observation a lot recently.

01:54:35.420 --> 01:54:37.680
I actually was talking to the Florida Professional

01:54:37.680 --> 01:54:46.539
Firefighters at their conference. And I was saying,

01:54:46.579 --> 01:54:50.119
if you are beating the chest about cancer prevention

01:54:50.119 --> 01:54:53.100
and you're not talking about shifts and sleep

01:54:53.100 --> 01:54:55.739
deprivation, then you're not taking cancer prevention

01:54:55.739 --> 01:54:58.050
seriously. If you're beating your chest about

01:54:58.050 --> 01:54:59.750
mental health and you're talking about it's what

01:54:59.750 --> 01:55:01.649
we see and you're not talking about shifts and

01:55:01.649 --> 01:55:04.310
sleep deprivation, then you really aren't. You're

01:55:04.310 --> 01:55:07.670
not. You don't care because this is it's in the

01:55:07.670 --> 01:55:09.770
room. It's not a elephant. It's a herd of elephants.

01:55:10.130 --> 01:55:13.449
But you guys will not acknowledge it. You know,

01:55:13.470 --> 01:55:17.189
sleep deprivation is a shift work. Excuse me.

01:55:17.210 --> 01:55:20.250
The same thing is a known carcinogen. There is

01:55:20.250 --> 01:55:22.649
a direct correlation between sleep deprivation

01:55:22.649 --> 01:55:25.989
and all things mental ill health. And then also

01:55:25.989 --> 01:55:27.949
go into the childhood trauma. Where's the conversation

01:55:27.949 --> 01:55:30.829
that a lot of us, because we chose this profession,

01:55:31.029 --> 01:55:32.970
usually are going to have some shit when we were

01:55:32.970 --> 01:55:35.149
young. And we don't talk about it at the front

01:55:35.149 --> 01:55:37.430
door. We just do some bullshit psych test that

01:55:37.430 --> 01:55:41.010
actually, actually was never meant to be a standalone

01:55:41.010 --> 01:55:43.250
test to determine if someone's right to be a

01:55:43.250 --> 01:55:45.630
first responder. We check a box and we're like,

01:55:45.710 --> 01:55:49.350
come on in. So, you know, if we, if listening

01:55:49.350 --> 01:55:51.869
to your testimony, having the courage to leave

01:55:51.869 --> 01:55:55.420
a department after 18 years. predominantly for

01:55:55.420 --> 01:55:59.039
a better working environment i mean if again

01:55:59.039 --> 01:56:03.239
that speaks volumes because it worked you know

01:56:03.239 --> 01:56:05.079
along with other things save a warrior but it

01:56:05.079 --> 01:56:07.859
worked the rest the recovery the time and then

01:56:07.859 --> 01:56:09.399
you know i went through a divorce as well i think

01:56:09.399 --> 01:56:11.819
we were literally the same age and then you have

01:56:11.819 --> 01:56:14.800
that whole thing about oh my god i'm 37 38 and

01:56:14.800 --> 01:56:18.060
now i'm dating and this is awful all the guys

01:56:18.060 --> 01:56:20.640
you know the old guys that thought they were

01:56:20.640 --> 01:56:22.319
Adonis that would talk about getting strange.

01:56:22.520 --> 01:56:24.180
I'm like, no, this is horrible. I don't want

01:56:24.180 --> 01:56:27.479
to be, I enjoyed being with, with someone before.

01:56:27.560 --> 01:56:29.220
And, you know, ultimately I found that person

01:56:29.220 --> 01:56:32.819
again, but, um, you know, all these elements

01:56:32.819 --> 01:56:36.439
to show, you know, how powerful this conversation

01:56:36.439 --> 01:56:39.920
is and then going to save a warrior, but there

01:56:39.920 --> 01:56:41.899
are organizations. So when I talk about this

01:56:41.899 --> 01:56:44.460
toolbox, you know, usually it's, it's counseling

01:56:44.460 --> 01:56:47.579
and it's psych meds. And then maybe EMDR is in

01:56:47.579 --> 01:56:49.970
that conversation. But no one's talking about

01:56:49.970 --> 01:56:54.130
Save a Warrior or ayahuasca or equine therapy

01:56:54.130 --> 01:56:57.970
or dive retreats. There's so many things there.

01:56:58.109 --> 01:57:02.430
So the fact that you had the courage and the

01:57:02.430 --> 01:57:05.409
humility to say, this isn't working. My kids

01:57:05.409 --> 01:57:07.130
are the most important things to me, which is

01:57:07.130 --> 01:57:09.829
exactly what happened to me. I'm going to go

01:57:09.829 --> 01:57:14.250
to a place that is going to be a healing environment.

01:57:14.670 --> 01:57:17.750
And then I'm also going to try. save a warrior

01:57:17.750 --> 01:57:19.930
which i've seen and has amazing results but i

01:57:19.930 --> 01:57:21.649
know it's going to be tough because i am going

01:57:21.649 --> 01:57:23.590
to be taking deep dives into my own background

01:57:23.590 --> 01:57:26.489
i think there's there's so much power in you

01:57:26.489 --> 01:57:30.430
know all the things that you've said yeah um

01:57:30.430 --> 01:57:34.710
so i went to save a warrior in august last year

01:57:34.710 --> 01:57:37.609
um believe it or not on my birthday was my first

01:57:37.609 --> 01:57:41.949
day at cohort and to this day on my wall to my

01:57:41.949 --> 01:57:44.850
right um jake clark if you've had on the show

01:57:44.850 --> 01:57:47.539
before I have a partial saying from that first

01:57:47.539 --> 01:57:50.600
day. I've left some of the words out, but it

01:57:50.600 --> 01:57:53.079
says it's not going to go your way. And I put

01:57:53.079 --> 01:57:55.359
that up there for a reason, because nothing is

01:57:55.359 --> 01:57:58.140
going to go your way 100 % of the time. You're

01:57:58.140 --> 01:58:00.319
always going to have things that just don't go

01:58:00.319 --> 01:58:02.260
how you want them to. And it's my daily reminder

01:58:02.260 --> 01:58:05.199
when I wake up at home that, hey, this day might

01:58:05.199 --> 01:58:08.560
not go the right way, but let's make the best

01:58:08.560 --> 01:58:13.199
of it. Sable Warrior taught me a lot of things.

01:58:15.020 --> 01:58:18.979
You know, when Dr. Clark founded it in 2012,

01:58:19.520 --> 01:58:22.520
he was looking strictly at veterans. I mean,

01:58:22.560 --> 01:58:24.319
you're talking an organization that was trying,

01:58:24.420 --> 01:58:26.180
you know, as a veteran himself, trying to do

01:58:26.180 --> 01:58:29.460
better for veterans coming out. And it ultimately

01:58:29.460 --> 01:58:31.979
morphed from Malibu, California to Hillsborough,

01:58:32.060 --> 01:58:38.140
Ohio now, which is two hours for me. And it encompasses,

01:58:38.300 --> 01:58:41.119
you know, for the state of Ohio first responders,

01:58:41.300 --> 01:58:44.470
it's 100 % free. At least from the fire side,

01:58:44.569 --> 01:58:47.869
I know 100 % for sure because our state local

01:58:47.869 --> 01:58:50.329
covers that. That's part of our dues. I didn't

01:58:50.329 --> 01:58:56.010
know that. For mental health, the OAPFF, I think

01:58:56.010 --> 01:58:59.829
it's $5 out of each month's dues go towards firefighter

01:58:59.829 --> 01:59:03.829
health and safety. So I was able to go 100%.

01:59:03.829 --> 01:59:08.329
It didn't cost a dime for me to go. And in 72

01:59:08.329 --> 01:59:14.530
hours of hard work and a whole lot of... being

01:59:14.530 --> 01:59:18.170
vulnerable in front of other people, you start

01:59:18.170 --> 01:59:23.170
to heal. And when you come out from the time

01:59:23.170 --> 01:59:25.729
you start to the, when you come out, you start

01:59:25.729 --> 01:59:28.569
a 500 day program. And if you stick with it,

01:59:28.569 --> 01:59:32.909
the results are amazing. I'm to the point now

01:59:32.909 --> 01:59:34.770
where I'm actually starting to go back and help

01:59:34.770 --> 01:59:38.609
others. Since we last talked on the phone, I've

01:59:38.609 --> 01:59:41.199
been asked to do a classroom lead role. Because

01:59:41.199 --> 01:59:43.880
before when you came out of cohort, you had travelers

01:59:43.880 --> 01:59:47.239
and it was all by phone. Our cohort, and for

01:59:47.239 --> 01:59:49.319
those of you that don't know what a cohort is,

01:59:49.380 --> 01:59:52.039
our cohort is the group that we go through with

01:59:52.039 --> 01:59:54.399
at Civil Warrior at that select time. So like

01:59:54.399 --> 01:59:59.699
our class. So when we came out, we started using

01:59:59.699 --> 02:00:03.159
Google Classroom. So now I have the ability to

02:00:03.159 --> 02:00:05.420
be a lead in the classroom and then we'll actually

02:00:05.420 --> 02:00:08.399
get to go back. So doing the work, traveling,

02:00:08.579 --> 02:00:11.319
helping other. class cohorts that come out. And

02:00:11.319 --> 02:00:14.279
then, you know, I will also be going back in

02:00:14.279 --> 02:00:17.000
September as a shepherd to help another cohort

02:00:17.000 --> 02:00:22.659
in person. And it's that work. I think that helps

02:00:22.659 --> 02:00:25.260
my healing the most is by helping others and

02:00:25.260 --> 02:00:26.800
meaning that we're going back for others. We're

02:00:26.800 --> 02:00:30.260
not, I'm not there to be your rescuer. I'm there

02:00:30.260 --> 02:00:33.159
to guide you. And then we call it wounded healing.

02:00:33.279 --> 02:00:35.140
You know, we're wounded healers. We have our

02:00:35.140 --> 02:00:37.920
own stuff. We work through it every day. Not

02:00:37.920 --> 02:00:41.180
all days are great. But it gives us a sense of

02:00:41.180 --> 02:00:44.760
purpose and drive that's not just that's something

02:00:44.760 --> 02:00:52.060
that defines us. I know for me that I came out

02:00:52.060 --> 02:00:54.159
on such an emotional high that I was like, man,

02:00:54.260 --> 02:00:55.739
if this ends, I don't know what's going to happen.

02:00:55.800 --> 02:00:58.880
Like, I don't know. You've let off so much crap

02:00:58.880 --> 02:01:03.579
while you're there that I just I remember showing

02:01:03.579 --> 02:01:05.539
up to my daughter's softball game and her just

02:01:05.539 --> 02:01:10.000
seeing me smiling like. are you okay like yeah

02:01:10.000 --> 02:01:14.399
i'm fine i was shaking i was so excited um and

02:01:14.399 --> 02:01:16.899
that hadn't happened before i've never been you

02:01:16.899 --> 02:01:18.880
know i was never that excited i was almost anxious

02:01:18.880 --> 02:01:24.039
excited and yes not all days are good since then

02:01:24.039 --> 02:01:25.680
you know you get that real quick it's a roller

02:01:25.680 --> 02:01:27.539
coaster right we come out you're feeling really

02:01:27.539 --> 02:01:29.220
great and eventually you're gonna start taxing

02:01:29.220 --> 02:01:33.279
down then you work back up but what i things

02:01:33.279 --> 02:01:36.100
i learned there you know were maybe just having

02:01:36.100 --> 02:01:38.779
a routine We started off every day with routine

02:01:38.779 --> 02:01:41.439
while we were there. It wasn't all the same,

02:01:41.500 --> 02:01:44.979
but it was within the same time frame. And for

02:01:44.979 --> 02:01:47.020
me, that is, as I get up every morning, first

02:01:47.020 --> 02:01:51.180
thing I do is I make my bed. Why? Because Admiral

02:01:51.180 --> 02:01:53.500
McRaven said, make your bed. Start the day off

02:01:53.500 --> 02:01:56.300
positive. I love that book, and I quote that

02:01:56.300 --> 02:01:58.180
to people all the time. It's like, read that

02:01:58.180 --> 02:02:01.560
book, understand things. But that's of doing

02:02:01.560 --> 02:02:05.970
one task to start my day off right. And as silly

02:02:05.970 --> 02:02:08.149
as it sounds, I walk in the bathroom next and

02:02:08.149 --> 02:02:10.390
I say, I love you in the mirror. And I walk back

02:02:10.390 --> 02:02:14.250
in and I do my meditation. Three positive things

02:02:14.250 --> 02:02:17.470
that start my day off. And after that, the day

02:02:17.470 --> 02:02:21.130
can go haywire and it doesn't matter. You know,

02:02:21.130 --> 02:02:24.970
and if you want a fourth positive is being home,

02:02:25.130 --> 02:02:27.890
waking up my kids or seeing my kids wake up,

02:02:27.930 --> 02:02:31.829
you know, that's a fourth positive. But it's

02:02:31.829 --> 02:02:34.899
learning to take the negatives. But the grain

02:02:34.899 --> 02:02:38.720
of salt or reaching out to somebody to talk to

02:02:38.720 --> 02:02:44.460
about the bad days, we call it the thousand pound

02:02:44.460 --> 02:02:46.539
weight. It's that phone. It's that, you know,

02:02:46.539 --> 02:02:49.439
that half pound iPhone we carry or whatever it

02:02:49.439 --> 02:02:51.819
might be just to pick up the phone and call somebody.

02:02:51.920 --> 02:02:55.619
And I'm fortunate that I have three brothers

02:02:55.619 --> 02:02:57.960
from my cohort within an hour and a half from

02:02:57.960 --> 02:03:00.720
me. And we get together all the time. We talk

02:03:00.720 --> 02:03:05.600
four or five times a week. And having that ability

02:03:05.600 --> 02:03:09.159
to be able to share unshareable things or things

02:03:09.159 --> 02:03:11.640
you wouldn't tell others, or maybe you wouldn't

02:03:11.640 --> 02:03:15.460
tell, you know, say it was that bad call and

02:03:15.460 --> 02:03:18.920
you had to see somebody that you can't get out

02:03:18.920 --> 02:03:20.460
of your head. Maybe just sharing it is all I

02:03:20.460 --> 02:03:22.960
need. Hey, I need you to listen for me. I got

02:03:22.960 --> 02:03:25.539
to get this off my chest. You know, if you want

02:03:25.539 --> 02:03:28.800
to help me dive into it, go ahead. And that's

02:03:28.800 --> 02:03:30.560
an outlook I never had before Sable Warrior.

02:03:31.020 --> 02:03:33.600
I would never have thought about it. And that

02:03:33.600 --> 02:03:37.619
program for me has been huge. Seeing the change

02:03:37.619 --> 02:03:41.100
in others where I'm at now with helping the program

02:03:41.100 --> 02:03:46.520
as well as still continue to do the work. It's

02:03:46.520 --> 02:03:49.100
pretty cool. I don't know how to explain it other

02:03:49.100 --> 02:03:52.039
than there's a certain point you get when you

02:03:52.039 --> 02:03:58.319
become what we call a traveler. that you get

02:03:58.319 --> 02:03:59.920
to a point where now you get to see others complete

02:03:59.920 --> 02:04:01.920
stuff and you just get this warm feeling like,

02:04:01.979 --> 02:04:04.060
holy crap, I'm super excited. Like that was awesome.

02:04:04.859 --> 02:04:07.619
And there's no other way to explain it. It's

02:04:07.619 --> 02:04:10.079
like watching your kid be born. It's that same

02:04:10.079 --> 02:04:12.739
kind of sense of feeling, that sense of completeness.

02:04:14.140 --> 02:04:19.420
And it's a whole different mindset. You know,

02:04:19.460 --> 02:04:23.100
I'm learning to confront things. I've learned

02:04:23.100 --> 02:04:26.779
to handle situations differently. Um, it's still

02:04:26.779 --> 02:04:30.439
a fight some days to keep, to keep the little

02:04:30.439 --> 02:04:33.600
voices that say, protect yourself, protect yourself,

02:04:33.699 --> 02:04:36.600
you know, potentially blowing up on somebody

02:04:36.600 --> 02:04:40.399
versus take that deep breath, you know, think

02:04:40.399 --> 02:04:43.380
about what you're going to say before you say

02:04:43.380 --> 02:04:45.560
it, or do I even need to say anything right now?

02:04:46.100 --> 02:04:50.479
And then either walking away or calmly handling

02:04:50.479 --> 02:04:53.439
that situation. And that's kind of where I'm

02:04:53.439 --> 02:04:57.279
at. And it's. I mean, it's just like it's a cool,

02:04:57.359 --> 02:05:00.979
emotional roller coaster that keeps you smiling

02:05:00.979 --> 02:05:05.100
every day. So this is where I think, you know,

02:05:05.100 --> 02:05:07.300
the conversation needs to be now that the hope

02:05:07.300 --> 02:05:10.340
of post -traumatic growth, the hope that you

02:05:10.340 --> 02:05:12.439
can be an even better version of yourself. And

02:05:12.439 --> 02:05:14.100
it was funny when you're talking about the quote

02:05:14.100 --> 02:05:19.079
from from Saw years ago, there was a poster on

02:05:19.079 --> 02:05:21.220
a wall in a CrossFit gym and it just said it

02:05:21.220 --> 02:05:24.180
never gets easier. And the point was, is that

02:05:24.180 --> 02:05:27.279
you get fitter. You get stronger, you get faster,

02:05:27.420 --> 02:05:30.060
but you're still pushing. And I think it's the

02:05:30.060 --> 02:05:32.220
same with this conversation. It's not that you're

02:05:32.220 --> 02:05:33.560
going to come out the other end and all of a

02:05:33.560 --> 02:05:36.079
sudden it's like a Disney film. There's still

02:05:36.079 --> 02:05:38.659
going to be the great, great days and the shitty

02:05:38.659 --> 02:05:41.720
days. But your ability to process them and cope

02:05:41.720 --> 02:05:43.920
with them and be empathetic in all these other

02:05:43.920 --> 02:05:46.899
areas are just going to be so much better when

02:05:46.899 --> 02:05:49.680
you've done the work. So hearing testimonies

02:05:49.680 --> 02:05:51.579
like yours and so many others. And again, these

02:05:51.579 --> 02:05:53.779
people have gone through so many different modalities.

02:05:53.979 --> 02:05:56.420
Everyone's story is different. But I've heard

02:05:56.420 --> 02:05:58.840
a lot of amazing Savior Warrior success stories.

02:06:00.039 --> 02:06:01.840
when people hear that they're like oh he's not

02:06:01.840 --> 02:06:04.239
patrick's not saying oh i get up every day and

02:06:04.239 --> 02:06:06.119
i'm still depressed but you know i'm getting

02:06:06.119 --> 02:06:08.020
through it now i'm not killing myself you know

02:06:08.020 --> 02:06:10.380
it's not it's like here's where i am now and

02:06:10.380 --> 02:06:13.659
it's even better even with the department i move

02:06:13.659 --> 02:06:16.640
for these hours and it's even better and this

02:06:16.640 --> 02:06:18.319
is what i think people need to hear and this

02:06:18.319 --> 02:06:20.760
is what i think would drive people whether it's

02:06:20.760 --> 02:06:24.640
to go to some sort of mental health uh you know

02:06:24.640 --> 02:06:27.159
modality and i know in your state the uh i think

02:06:27.159 --> 02:06:29.220
it's wave neuro if i've got that that right the

02:06:29.220 --> 02:06:31.899
tms you guys have free access to that as we do

02:06:31.899 --> 02:06:36.260
here in florida um yeah so all those ones you

02:06:36.260 --> 02:06:38.500
know are available but also have hope to believe

02:06:38.500 --> 02:06:40.960
like well if we actually change our work schedule

02:06:41.560 --> 02:06:43.859
That will also have a huge impact in everything

02:06:43.859 --> 02:06:46.520
from our physical and mental health to our relationships

02:06:46.520 --> 02:06:50.079
and our marriages even. So it's so, so great

02:06:50.079 --> 02:06:52.960
to hear you kind of shouting from the rooftops

02:06:52.960 --> 02:06:57.180
now. You mentioned Make Your Bed. I want to transition

02:06:57.180 --> 02:06:58.779
to some closing questions so I can be mindful

02:06:58.779 --> 02:07:02.100
of your time. Are there any other books that

02:07:02.100 --> 02:07:04.579
you love to recommend? It can be related to our

02:07:04.579 --> 02:07:09.210
discussion today or completely unrelated. So

02:07:09.210 --> 02:07:11.350
probably one of my favorite books, and I got

02:07:11.350 --> 02:07:14.750
to meet him in San Francisco finally, was The

02:07:14.750 --> 02:07:17.149
Mission of Men and Me by Pete Blaber, who was

02:07:17.149 --> 02:07:23.470
a colonel in the Special Forces. Learning that,

02:07:23.510 --> 02:07:26.170
but for me, it's not just, it used to be the

02:07:26.170 --> 02:07:28.789
mission of the fire service. Now it's, what's

02:07:28.789 --> 02:07:32.909
my mission? You know, and the men, that goes

02:07:32.909 --> 02:07:36.829
out the window. The men are my kids. And then

02:07:36.829 --> 02:07:39.560
me. and then the fire department. So I add one

02:07:39.560 --> 02:07:41.699
more line, but to me, that book was a great mindset

02:07:41.699 --> 02:07:47.380
book. It's one of my favorites of all time. Yeah.

02:07:47.460 --> 02:07:52.180
How you make your bed is up there. Let me look

02:07:52.180 --> 02:07:56.100
at my bookshelf quick. It's your ship is another

02:07:56.100 --> 02:07:59.439
good one. I get big and geeky into the leadership

02:07:59.439 --> 02:08:01.220
books, but they're just because it's different

02:08:01.220 --> 02:08:05.899
mindsets. That's a good one. to dive into if

02:08:05.899 --> 02:08:09.260
you want to see how off thinking can change a

02:08:09.260 --> 02:08:13.539
department um just your way of thinking um is

02:08:13.539 --> 02:08:16.380
a good one um that's those are probably my top

02:08:16.380 --> 02:08:20.880
three and the reason i say that is is normally

02:08:20.880 --> 02:08:22.899
it takes me a month or two to read a book and

02:08:22.899 --> 02:08:26.420
those each of those i read in either two days

02:08:26.420 --> 02:08:31.159
or a day so um those were definitely my favorites

02:08:31.159 --> 02:08:35.859
um as far as If anybody's interested in really

02:08:35.859 --> 02:08:39.619
learning more about the mental health side of

02:08:39.619 --> 02:08:43.460
it and they're good with science stuff, PTSD

02:08:43.460 --> 02:08:49.300
for First Responders. It's a great book. It dives

02:08:49.300 --> 02:08:52.720
into a lot of things and will give you a different

02:08:52.720 --> 02:08:58.260
look at what causes it, why as human beings we

02:08:58.260 --> 02:09:02.340
neurologically do certain things. So that's another

02:09:02.340 --> 02:09:05.970
good one. That's my geeky side coming out. But

02:09:05.970 --> 02:09:09.649
those are probably my top books. You don't know

02:09:09.649 --> 02:09:13.529
this yet, but I just finished Kinder and I just

02:09:13.529 --> 02:09:17.810
started One More Light. So, yes, there you go.

02:09:18.050 --> 02:09:22.970
But that's one thing I've been trying to do more

02:09:22.970 --> 02:09:24.949
is get back in the reading and that kind of adds

02:09:24.949 --> 02:09:27.770
a little solace time too. Beautiful. Brilliant.

02:09:27.909 --> 02:09:30.109
All right. Well, then what about films and or

02:09:30.109 --> 02:09:37.739
documentaries? Um, films. So the all but famous

02:09:37.739 --> 02:09:40.380
band of brothers, probably top, top film. Um,

02:09:40.520 --> 02:09:43.060
do you want to talk about teamwork, camaraderie,

02:09:43.060 --> 02:09:46.840
highs and lows and overcoming adversity by all

02:09:46.840 --> 02:09:50.640
means? Um, all, I think all those, the Pacific

02:09:50.640 --> 02:09:53.479
and, um, I forget what the new one is about the,

02:09:53.520 --> 02:09:59.020
uh, pilots, but all those were good ones. All

02:09:59.020 --> 02:10:01.180
right. Well, the next question, is there a person

02:10:01.180 --> 02:10:03.600
that you recommend to come on this podcast as

02:10:03.600 --> 02:10:06.859
a guest to speak to the first responders, military

02:10:06.859 --> 02:10:10.060
and associated professions of the world? Yeah.

02:10:10.579 --> 02:10:15.199
So my lead shepherd, who is Brad Savage, was

02:10:15.199 --> 02:10:17.880
on kind of shared his story. He's a Canadian

02:10:17.880 --> 02:10:22.560
mounted police officer. He'd be a great one to

02:10:22.560 --> 02:10:25.479
come on. Kind of talks about the law enforcement

02:10:25.479 --> 02:10:28.319
side as well as some of the struggles. And then

02:10:28.319 --> 02:10:30.880
the other person I would throw in there and against

02:10:30.880 --> 02:10:32.960
another LEO would be Larry Turner from Sable

02:10:32.960 --> 02:10:36.500
Warrior. The dude has a powerful message and

02:10:36.500 --> 02:10:42.359
I can't not throw him in that loop. Beautiful.

02:10:42.560 --> 02:10:44.680
All right. We don't know your little ones wanting

02:10:44.680 --> 02:10:46.880
the dad back. So let me just get to the last

02:10:46.880 --> 02:10:50.220
couple. Next one. What do you do to decompress?

02:10:52.939 --> 02:10:55.810
Anything from. Something as simple, like I said

02:10:55.810 --> 02:10:58.229
before, meditation works really well. And then

02:10:58.229 --> 02:11:03.829
I like backpacking. I like hiking, kayaking,

02:11:03.869 --> 02:11:06.449
fishing, basically being outdoors. Anything outdoors

02:11:06.449 --> 02:11:09.409
works really well for me. That's what my decompression

02:11:09.409 --> 02:11:12.270
stuff is. Brilliant. And if people want to reach

02:11:12.270 --> 02:11:14.069
out to you, learn more about you, where are the

02:11:14.069 --> 02:11:18.590
best places online to do that? I'm on Facebook.

02:11:19.170 --> 02:11:23.470
It's my name, Patrick Mullen. I do have an Instagram

02:11:23.470 --> 02:11:27.210
account. I don't really utilize it much. You're

02:11:27.210 --> 02:11:30.609
welcome to, you know, anything through James.

02:11:31.829 --> 02:11:34.869
Sable Warrior as well. If anybody's interested

02:11:34.869 --> 02:11:37.989
in that, it's my name, Patrick .Mullen at SableWarrior

02:11:37.989 --> 02:11:42.770
.org is my email. So that's probably the best

02:11:42.770 --> 02:11:46.789
way because that is an official email. But, yeah.

02:11:47.590 --> 02:11:49.109
Brilliant. Those would be the best ways to get

02:11:49.109 --> 02:11:51.390
a hold of me. Well, you've got a little one hanging

02:11:51.390 --> 02:11:53.470
on your arm, so I'm going to let you go. I just

02:11:53.470 --> 02:11:56.229
want to thank you so, so much, though, not only

02:11:56.229 --> 02:11:58.189
for being generous with your time, but also for

02:11:58.189 --> 02:12:00.329
being courageously vulnerable, because it is

02:12:00.329 --> 02:12:02.789
stories like these, especially the post -traumatic

02:12:02.789 --> 02:12:05.390
growth stories that are definitely going to resonate

02:12:05.390 --> 02:12:07.229
with people listening. So I want to thank you

02:12:07.229 --> 02:12:08.930
so, so much for coming on the Behind the Shield

02:12:08.930 --> 02:12:12.090
podcast. Thank you, James. I appreciate it. I'm

02:12:12.090 --> 02:12:12.710
glad I could be here.