This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran
-owned and operated performance optimization
company that I introduced recently as a sponsor
on this show. Well, since then I have actually
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Now, as I mentioned before, the other side of
this company is an altruistic arm called the
Transcend Foundation, which is putting veterans
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free of charge. Now, Transcend are also offering
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And you can find that on jamesgearing .com under
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about Transcend and their story, listen to episode
808 with the founder, Ernie Colling. or go to
transcendcompany .com. Welcome to the Behind
the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James
Gearing, and this week it is my absolute honor
to welcome on the show Ohio firefighter paramedic
Patrick Mullen. Now, in this conversation, we
discuss a host of topics, from his journey into
the fire service, working in a rural department,
his experience working the 24 -72 shift schedule,
mental health, the Save a Warrior program, Brothers
Helping Brothers, and so much more. Now, before
we get to this incredible conversation, as I
say every week, please just take a moment, go
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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
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is that you help share these incredible men and
women's stories so I can get them to every single
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
Mullen. Enjoy. Well, Patrick, I want to start
by saying thank you so much for taking the time
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Thank you, James. Appreciate it. So where on
planet Earth are we finding you this afternoon?
So today I am actually at home in a small town
in Ohio called Anaheim on the west side of the
state. Which is the largest city that people
would recognize closest to you? Closest to me,
you have the city of Sydney, which is just south,
the city of Lima, which is north. So I'm about
45 minutes north of Dayton, Ohio. Okay. So not
too far from Jim Bernica then? Nope, not at all.
Brilliant. All right. Well, then I would love
to start at the very beginning of your timeline.
So tell me where you were born and tell me a
little bit about your family dynamic, what your
parents did, how many siblings. All right. So
I was born in Oregon, Ohio, which is a suburb
of Toledo. Then my father was a firefighter,
retired as chief officer. My mom was a stay -at
-home mother for most of her life. I did a little
bit of home daycare. And I have two younger sisters,
my sister Nicole and Maggie. Beautiful. What
was your experience, or when you reflect back
now with 2025 eyes, the pros and the cons of
being in the family with a father as a firefighter?
So actually, my grandfather was as well. So there
was two first responders in the family. Kind
of goes along the same saying. Looking back,
you definitely learn the, I hate to use the term,
but use the workaholic mindset because everybody
has a second job. And looking back, it was great
as a kid growing up. You're around fire trucks,
you're around other firefighters, families, other
families, kids. That part was great. But you
definitely learn a different. I hate to use the
term family dynamic, but family dynamic when
it comes to working and providing because of
the fact that most of us have second jobs. Was
it historically always the case that in Ohio,
obviously in this case, that the firefighters
were not paid the kind of wage that a loan would
sustain a family? Yes and no. A lot of it's area
dependent. The bigger cities seem to have a little
bit higher wage in Ohio. Some of your smaller
towns and smaller cities were a little bit lower
on the scale. Currently, where I sit, we're all
right in the middle, roughly, between some of
the bigger cities and smaller cities as well.
But yeah, for the most part in the state, unless
you were in a Richard suburb or in a bigger city,
you were kind of on that medium to low, right
around that. $45 ,000 to $50 ,000 range, you
know, about 20 years ago. Gotcha. All right.
Well, then what about sports and exercise? What
were you playing and doing as a kid? So as a
kid, I was a outdoorsy kid, hunting, fishing,
played a little bit of everything from t -ball
to soccer. Kind of my big thing throughout middle
school and high school was wrestling and golf.
I know the two exact opposites. But yeah, I learned
my... the exercise ethic through wrestling and
that kind of determination and hard work. And
it's more of that kind of individual, but team
sport. And then golfing, I just, I love to walk
in the courses. It was a different, it was more
of a solace game. You kind of just enjoy the
round environment and the people you're with.
I ask people a lot of times, you know, what did
they pull from the team sports they played and
then the individual sports? Obviously, I was
a martial artist, so wrestling or taekwondo,
you're on the mat, you've got an opponent. There's
a lot of ownership there. But golf is an interesting
one. So when you reflect back now, what were
the elements, especially between the two years,
the application of what you learned in golf to
the fire service? So with golfing, there is a
decent amount of skill involved. I mean, anybody
can go out and whack a golf ball. Absolutely.
I was not the best. You know, I was a upper 80s,
mid 90s in high school. Sometimes I would get
lucky and get that low 80s round. But there's
definitely a lot of practice, a lot of training
involved. I would spend three nights a week at
the range, three to four nights a week at practice,
and then try to get as many rounds in as I could.
I also, while golfing, caddied at a local country
club. So you go in a little bit of work there,
too. So when you compare that to firefighting,
we're constantly training. We're constantly learning.
We're looking at it through a different set of
eyes. So for me, when I was on the golf course,
I was looking for where's the hills, what's the
distance, the angles of the green, slope, weather.
Was it moist? Was there a lot of moisture on
the ground? Then you go into firefighting, you're
looking at, whether as a new firefighter, just
looking at, okay, I just want to get my first
fire. You go through basic training and you're
focused on getting your card and then getting
a job and getting on that truck, right? For me,
that was the majority of my first few years of
my career. And then I started realizing, hey,
this has a lot to relate with. you know sports
in general you can start to concentrate more
on little areas whatever more i could learn you
start deep diving um spent a lot of time uh learning
about different types of nozzles and how fire
stream application works um i spent a lot of
time as i developed into a pump operator you
know learning how pumps worked and i think a
lot of that comes from that kind of individual
ability just kind of dive in and concentrate
on what you're working on And that was kind of
the same thing with golf, because it is interesting
that when you're on a golf course, you pay attention
to everything, whether it's your stance, how
your feet are setting the slope of the green,
all that. And that all plays in the same in the
fire service. A lot of what we do, it's very
situational dependent. When you look at the sports
world, especially when people get to a high level,
there's a huge amount of expertise that surrounds
the athlete and sports psychologists and breathwork
coaches are some of the ones that you see at
the top level. And, you know, knowing that golf
literally is a game of millimeters, depending
on how you're turning the club or your shoulder
or whatever it is. You know, I would imagine
that as you start climbing that ladder, you're
exposed to some of these tools that these top
people use. Did you have any kind of exposure
to meditation, breath work? Some of the things
that we know now do work very well in the first
responder professions as well. So back then,
no, it was more of a just try to learn how to
clear your mind before you hit. Um, today a lot,
I do a lot with meditation breath work, um, especially
on the golf course. And when I'm out there, same
with that work, um, it, that kind of calming,
uh, ability to do like for me, I do a 20 minute
meditation every day. So, um, that meditation
at home before I go into work just kind of starts
a day off. Right. And then like on the golf course,
I do a. a little decent amount of breath work.
Generally, before I hit, I'll just close my eyes
and just relax. A couple of deep breaths, just
relax, and you step up and hit the ball. It really
does play a good role, I think, in today's fire
service. Meditation, definitely, if you can learn
how to clear your mind and keep your mind positive
and start, whether it's starting your day, ending
your day, whatever it might be, it helps keep
that positive mindset and really relieve any
stresses that you may have. Yeah, I found it.
It was inadvertent, but I had a long journey
of martial arts prior to the fire service. But
when you had those calls that really had the
pucker factor, whether it was a cardiac arrest
or whether it was a multiple call structure fire,
that just simply, as you said, just taking those
few breaths before, in your case, stepping up
to the ball or before opening the engine door
and getting out and going to work. It's really
interesting now seeing that it's not just about
mental health that we'll get into in a bit, but
it's also about performance. Look at the highest
level performance in sports. They use meditation.
They use breath work. So it's not all woo -woo,
hippie, PTSD stuff. Even though it partly is,
there's absolutely an application for the same
thing to improve your performance as a firefighter.
Absolutely. And just something as simple as taking
a few calming breaths, even before making entry
into a house fire, get your heart rate under
control. Most of us, even, you know, even in
my career, I'm still get that jumping heart rate.
And if you can just get that heart rate down
just a little bit before you go in, your mind's
clear, your thinking's better. You're more aware
of your environment and teaching that to our
younger firefighters as well, just to. Take that
step back for just a split second before you
go in to kind of get the lay of your environment
is really a big helpful thing. I've said this
a few times on here, but it wasn't too long ago
that I had this realization that we have one
of the only professions on the planet where the
only amount of air available to you is strapped
to your back. I'd say underwater welders and
that kind of thing are the only other ones or
astronauts. So when you think about that, The
fact that there isn't an enforced fitness standard
and the fact that breath work and meditation
aren't a large part of the conversation, or at
least weren't when we got hired, it really is
quite mind -blowing. Because when you get that
heart rate down, I mean, I love the CrossFit
EMOM, you know, 30 seconds of work, 30 seconds
of rest. So, you know, let's say you've climbed
a few flights of stairs, you pause on a stairwell,
take a moment to get the heart rate down again,
and then you continue so you conserve your bottle.
But yeah, when you really put it into perspective,
the only air accessible to us in IDLH is that
tank on your back. Why would you not do everything
you possibly could to lower your heart rate and
lower your respiratory rate? Absolutely. When
I was younger, when I got hired and there was
no physical jelly test, it was a high school
equivalency test. But I was still at that time,
I was still doing a lot of 5Ks. Generally worked
out a decent amount. I wasn't a big guy, but
it was more of that younger mindset, physical
fitness. All the guys you're working with are
about your age and you kind of just do it all
together. As I've gotten older, I'm not much
of a runner anymore. I find alternative methods,
whether it's walking the golf course, hiking,
backpacking, kayaking, different methods to do
some cardio as well. And then when I. When I
train, a lot of the times when you get to put
that mask on, you try to get your heart rate
up beforehand. So if we're going to do a training,
I'm trying to do something to get my heart rate
jolted. And then so that way you get your mindset
going of, oh, my heart rate's up. Now I can take
them breaths, calm down, just as if we were going
in. And you're absolutely correct. You know,
you got 30 to 45 minutes of actual time or, you
know, 12 to 15 minutes of work time on a bottle.
You want every bit of air you can. And yes, there's
breathing techniques out there, but when you
get moving, you don't generally think, hey, I
need to slow my breathing down. You just continue
with that task. So absolutely holding a decent
fitness standard and having a physical agility
test is really important in today's fire service.
You know, I'm closer to the end of my career
than I am in the beginning. And seeing the younger
guys and gals that are coming in in really good
shape, you know, I know a couple of them that
do CrossFit. on a regular basis. But just having
the drive to stay physically fit and knowing
that we do do a physically demanding job does
help even on the long nights where maybe you
only get an hour or a half hour sleep, but that
allows your body to maintain some sort of good
ability to respond on calls and stay aware. Absolutely.
Well, you mentioned about how you entered, but
prior to that, when you were in a school age,
having this generational firefighter family,
were you already dreaming of becoming a firefighter
or was there something else you were thinking
about? So not really. I was like your typical
kid. I had different thoughts. Originally, I
was looking at, believe it or not, being a physician.
And then in high school, I was into some of the
advanced classes and I got to a point where I
really didn't like advanced math. Calculus stunk.
Some of the harder sciences were just not my
thing. And I started looking at alternatives.
And then obviously being with my father, my grandfather,
I got to go on a few calls. here or there when
they were when my father was off duty and just
kind of watch from a distance. But that kind
of really is what finalized the drive to get
into the fire service. And of course, I was actually
a senior when 9 -11 happened. So if I wasn't
100 percent, I was 100 percent after that. So
that kind of sealed the deal. And then, you know,
the rest is history from there. You mentioned
about going on calls with your father and grandfather.
When you reflect back now, and we're going to
dive into first responder mental health, with
this kind of veteran lens that you have, were
there any signs of either of those two generations
concealing some of their own struggles, if any
at all? My grandfather, I didn't notice any.
Now, yes, I do notice a little bit with my dad.
And the signs I see are knowing what I know now
are definitely there. And I was almost to that
point for a while. Like I was not doing anything
to better myself mentally with what we were seeing.
And when I started my career, talking about runs
was not a thing. Like you came back and you brushed
it off and went to the next call. And that's
what I grew up with. That's what I grew up around
and seeing a lot of. Never really heard neither
my father or my grandfather talk about work much.
It was definitely a I went to work, I came home
environment. Grandpa had been retired for a few
years before I was born. So, I mean, there was
a little bit of a time lapse, but the very few
things he talked about were just in some of his
old picture albums he had. And other than that,
I never heard much. Dad was kind of the same
way. I never heard much about days at work. Other
than a few times I would go, you know, maybe
get to go to the station or a couple of times
I had actually got to ride with him on a call.
I didn't hear much or got to see that side of
it. So it was definitely more of a less talk
environment back then. What year did you get
hired? So I got hired in the fire service in
2005, but actually started two years prior in
the EMS side as an EMT, then a paramedic before
I got in the fire service. So let's go to that
first, because I want to get your perspective
on how competitive it was. But before we even
do that, walk me through. You're very young.
Now you're exposed to the EMS world. What was
some of the career calls or impactful moments
that you remember from that? So I worked private
EMS my first year and a half or so. So a lot
of nursing home calls, a few 911 calls to assist.
The Toledo area was a very weird setup. They
had a countywide EMS system, but also certain
cities and towns had their own EMS. So like you
would get dispatched, you'd hear a life squad,
a county life squad get dispatched. But they
could be canceled, especially in the state of
Toledo, if it wasn't deemed a true ALS event.
And then they would call for a private EMS ambulance.
So we were responding on calls with Toledo Fire
a lot. And then sometimes in the outlying areas
as well. Definitely seen a few calls. Probably
the one that sticks with me the most during that
time frame was a male that was down. We were
actually considered a life squad for the county.
We had a dual medic crew that day. We got down
there, and it was actually a hypothermic male
that was also hypoglycemic at the same time.
The nice thing about the Toledo area is you're
three to five minutes from any hospital, but
we were able to get him in the truck, start getting
him warmed up, get him some dextrose, and then
get him to the hospital quickly, which ultimately
turned out for a great outcome. Beautiful. Well,
we basically got hired around the same time.
I got hired in 2004. How competitive was it back
then? And then compare that to now, if there's
been any change. So back then, it's what I call
the post 9 -11 era. Especially in the Toledo
area, there was not many jobs at all. And they
were very competitive for the few there were.
The last test I had some knowledge of was...
2010, and I think they had close to 5 ,000 or
6 ,000 applicants at that time. When I got hired,
if I wanted to go anywhere big, the two best
options were Detroit or outside the state of
Ohio. I actually got hired by a smaller city
in 2005, and back then there was 60 or so candidates
for two spots. Today, Where I'm currently at
in the city I'm currently in now, there's probably,
I'm guessing we were like 30 applicants for four
spots. So it's definitely a switch where there's
definitely more of a hiring need versus a hiring
pool. Yeah, absolutely. Which again, I mean,
I've talked about this many times on here. It's
about the kind of person that you get. Firstly,
like you said, what is attracting us to the fire
service in the first place? So what kind of people
are even... thinking about this profession but
also then what percentage of that list are you
taking versus 10 15 20 years ago it's not just
18 and a heartbeat not everyone is the right
fit for this job absolutely um i was 21 when
i got hired um when i left the department i was
at and went to my current department we had a
few guys that were hired in that were in that
18, 19, 20 year range. They were coming out of
high school with their certifications, except
for their paramedic cards. So they'd have their
EMT and their Ohio fire level two right out of
high school. So we were getting them straight
out of high school. So there's definitely, it's
an advantage and a disadvantage. It's an advantage
for the cities getting the candidates coming
out of school. To me, you know, there's a lot,
I think you've said it and I know a few others
have talked about it. 18 -year -old men and women
are not, in my eyes, are not 100 % ready to see
sometimes what we see. You're still developing.
You're still young. I started when I was 20 -ish,
right about 20 is when I first got in. And I
can tell you that some of the stuff you see,
you are not ready to see. And the other downfall
is, so with the state of Ohio, when I got hired
in, you have to do 25 years of service with a
minimum age of 48. Now it's 25 years and a minimum
age of 52. So when you're getting hired in, you're
working 35 years just to retire. Yeah. 34, 35.
Absolutely. And I think, again, it's not even
opinions. This is the world of neuroscience.
They have said the brain does not stop developing
until, actually, I think it's mid -20s. So to
take a... person out of high school and pd does
21 so we you know our brothers in blue do you
know they don't hire 18 year olds and i'm sure
it's for the same reason um you know i think
that when we go back to this high demand of of
staffing that we will see when we start changing
things i think you will be able then to say yeah
at 21 years old absolutely you know we've got
some mentor programs we've got explorers and
but yeah go go learn a trade you know whatever
the other things are And when you are 21, you
know, we'll mentor you up to that point, then
absolutely. But I think of some of the first
calls I had in my first department, and I was
lucky. I think I was 27 when I got hired, if
I got that right, 27, 28. So, you know, my tiny
little brain at least had been given a chance
to mature. But I can't imagine 18 -year -old
James seeing some of the stuff that I saw. You
know, would I be able to deal with it back then?
I don't know. Where I currently work, we have
– a decent amount of part -time staff. And a
lot of them are anywhere from 19 to, you know,
we'll say 30, somewhere in that range. And part
of what I do with the department is the peer
support team is for me is especially just talk
to them. Hey, if you have a bad call, you know,
don't just get ahold of somebody, say something
to your partner, whatever, talk it out. Because
knowing that your brain is not ready to see that.
And knowing that maybe you don't know how to
process that correctly. You know, you want them
to be able to at least have the availability
of the options to help them, whether it's talking
to a coworker or getting them other help if need
be to process what they're seeing. But you definitely
can see that with our careers, it does take a
toll on you over time. And the longer you're
in, the younger you are and the longer you're
in, you know, that's going to just compound that
even more. I think if I remember the statistic
correctly, it's the average person sees one of
the two traumatic events in their whole life.
And we see a hundred times that in our career.
And that's a lot, especially when you're starting
at a younger age. You know, I grew up around
it and I still, to this day, don't think I was
ready to see some of the stuff we were seeing,
even though I'm sure you felt the same way when
you got into the job. It's like, heck yeah, I'm
ready to go. A hundred percent. You're constantly
on excited. You just don't realize how much it
takes on you as a person. Yeah. I had a really
interesting experience not long ago. I've told
this story a few times on here. But when I was
little, I was in a house fire when I was four.
I had a wall almost kill us when I think I was
about 11. Horrible parents divorced. But like
I've said many times on here, equally and oppositely,
there were so many healing elements that I think.
And that did a lot of good. But when, you know,
I was a son of a vet, so I was around gore and
death and all kinds of stuff. But these are obviously
in animals. So I had that and I had a kitchen
table. I was one of five kids. And, you know,
so there was a lot of things that mirrored the
fire service. So then, excuse me, you know, you
go into the fire service. It's kind of like you
said, it's not even so much like anyone told
me, oh, we don't talk about it. You just didn't
talk about it. You just, you know, you thought
this is it. You just go to the call. You close
the call. You go eat dinner. You know, this is
just the way it works. But when I transitioned
out, I worked a code on a plane about literally
about a year and a half ago now. And, you know,
I'm the freaking Reaper when it comes to codes.
If you're in cardiac arrest and I'm your medic,
you are screwed. And so the same thing happened,
you know, and again, I've said this on here a
few times. I keep seeing these stories. Our person
had chest pain on plane and there was a, you
know, conference of cardiologists that happened
to be returning home. No. I went there and these
poor people, no one had any pre -hospital experience.
The stewards and stewardesses were trained in
the AOA and the AED. And then there's a couple
of bystanders that knew CPR. So work this code.
Very long story short, the London fire came on.
We dragged them to the galley, kept working them.
Then London ambulance came on. And then ultimately
I stepped away, you know, because I've been on
the chest now for a while. And instead of going
back to my rig and helping clean up the stretcher
and then talking to the doctor about, hey, you
know, what do you think? What was the outcome,
et cetera? I just went to the plain bathroom,
washed the blood off my hands and then took a
seat. And I had this like, oh, feeling and I'm
like, what is wrong with me? And then I realized
to your point, it's not what's wrong with me.
It's what's right with me. This is how you are
supposed to feel when out of nowhere, someone
has a cardiac arrest and you fight to save that
person's life. And then, oh, it happened again.
They still die. This is a normal reaction. So
we do get so blunted to that, that, you know,
how we're supposed to feel gets lost in what
people tell us we're supposed to feel. Absolutely.
You know, that whole mindset of, we don't talk
about it. We're tough. You know, that it was
there for a long time. Like there's nobody ever
said anything. You would get back. Like you said,
you'd eat dinner, sit down, go about your day.
I think that environment's kind of changing its
way. Not even so much on the, let's just talk
about the call. It's more of a, Hey, let's talk
about how things went right. How things went
wrong. was there anything we could have done
any better on the process while you're doing
that you're actually processing the call you
don't realize it and that's my take on it is
you don't realize when you're actually doing
a debrief on with your partner or partners on
how you think that call went or even your crew
is that you're actually processing part of that
call as well um we just recently had a code last
week and it just had to be we took three because
she was critical and she coded on us and when
we got done we talked about i'm like man i forgot
how much fun slash how taxing it is to do with
two people you know in the in the back doing
everything with just two people and it adds an
element of a challenge but also you know you
have a life in your hands you got 10 minute transport
time you're trying to give the best outcome you
can you get a heartbeat back um Kind of that
whole spectrum. And then the patient ultimately
dies. But when you talk about it, hey, you know,
is there anything we could have done different?
Or, you know, what do we do right? Which is usually
the high part. What do we do right? What do we
do wrong? Or if we did anything wrong, is there
anything we could have done different? Meaning,
did we get, you know, could we, our timeframes
could have been better? Could our compressions
have been better? But I think a lot of it, too,
is technology as well. We were able to get this
patient on a Lucas within seconds. So the compressions
with devices make things a lot easier. And we
had a great positive mindset coming out of it.
You know, we talked about the call as a crew
and then, you know, actually got back and our
other two people that were on the engine, that
crew that had went back to the station, we all
talked as a group as well. And, you know, kind
of the same debrief. And I think with those debriefings
during calls, you tend to off -process the information
that your body maybe would have hidden. And I
know for me, talking about it, definitely takes
that little bit of weight off of your chest and
off your shoulders. Whether, you know, in this
case, it was a good outcome initially that ultimately,
like your patient, my patient passed away. But
you're able to just process that through. It's
interesting because when you talk about that
kind of conversation, it requires humility. And
I've been on departments that were really good
or crews that were really good at what went right,
what went wrong. And I used to love it because
nothing goes right. I mean, I think. People think
that when you do these orchestrated hose pulls
and ladder throws at the academy, like, oh, this
is what the fire is going to be like. No, it's
an absolute shit show. You're just hoping that
you can whack -a -mole your way into actually
all these skills that you learn applying to this
organized chaos that is a structure fire. I wrote
about this in, I think, my first book. For example,
we went to one house, and it was a tweaker house,
and the guy had tiled his driveway with slick
bathroom tile. So the moment water flowed, every
man and his dog was fricking slipping over. Okay.
So now, you know, now you still got to do the
same things, but now you've got a completely
different dynamic. You've got the pack rat house
example. So, you know, learning from each and
every one, I think is really important. And also
it then kind of shirks some of the guilt. If
you and you keeping it to yourself, like, oh,
I think I, you know, I didn't push that drug
fast enough or da da da. When you start critiquing
it, you realize, okay, no, no, we did do as best
we could. That was. It was the fact that the
person was a quadriplegic for 30 years that meant
I couldn't do the compressions. And then you
start unpacking that as well. But it takes humility.
And if you are an arrogant paramedic or firefighter,
you won't have those conversations because you're
telling yourself that either A, it was everyone
else's fault, or B, that everything just went
perfectly. And so when you hear these, oh, well,
if no one died, it was a good call. No one got
hurt, like bullshit. Like, how can we make this
better? You know, can we actually, you know,
be even better on the compressions? You know,
did you get stuck drawing up that drug? What
went wrong? Why was there a vacuum? Whatever
the thing is, just so you can next time not repeat
the same mistake. And as you mentioned, then
the beautiful byproduct is 100 % that you are
also processing this. The same way as we said
meditation is for mental health and peak performance,
it's the same with this. You're improving your...
skills as a firefighter while simultaneously
subconsciously offloading some of the trauma
yeah um and it kind of goes back to i had a uh
friend of mine that i worked with for a long
time and uh it was a fire instructor for many
years like i said learn from every call you know
um not every call is going to go your way not
every call is going to be the same um you'll
go on the same situation but you won't have the
same presentation And if you can have the humility
to be able to say, you know, was there anything
else we could have done better? You know, that
really seems to be the, that line, like you said,
between an arrogant person and not, you know,
oh, I'm just a hundred percent great at this
versus I just want to improve. And that line
is that fine line too, I think plays into as
well to the development of you as a, firefighter,
medic, and as a person. I know with the crews
I work with that we tend to discuss more because
not all the time that we have the same crew.
We have the same full -time crew, but not always
the same part -time crew. We tend to have more
than discussions. And my favorite one of the
day is where are the first in bags going? Because
we have a backpack stop first in bag and I like
it by the side door. Some people like it on the
car and just having that moment to say, hey,
let's set up for success today because this is
where, you know, this is where the equipment
will be. It's no different that and with a fire.
Hey, you know, you're sitting in this seat today.
So your role is this. You're the nozzleman. You're
the irons guy. You know, as a pump operator,
a lot when I'm on the engine, you know, not only
do I have my job to worry about as a pump operator,
but also, you know, I'm also assisting with the
deployment of a hose line. getting my own water
supply we don't we have second arriving apparatus
but they might be seven eight minutes away so
i may be in that dual role where i'm doing one
thing but assisting the crew with getting their
line in play getting a second line to the door
whatever it might be at the same time of you
know doing my initial job and just knowing that
whether it's in the fire side or ems side knowing
that role by having the discussions as a crew
to understand how you want to work your calls
as you go on them just seems to really help.
It makes a good positive impact. It gives some
direction. And I think, especially with the younger
people that we're seeing in our job now, that
giving them that direction, that gives them their
sense of purpose to learn and develop so the
next time they come in, the next shift they come
in, They're asking that question, hey, am I in
this spot today or am I in this spot? And then
they start asking, hey, how do you want this
set up? Or if I'm the irons today, do you want
me to go straight to the door? Do you want me
to take one in with me when we go within the
hose line? They ask the other questions that
some of us just do on our own. And I think that
really makes for a great crew dynamic as well.
Yeah, no, absolutely. I remember one of my friends
who was a Delta operator said, If you want to
see imposter syndrome, go to a Delta team room.
Now, these are the most elite soldiers we have,
arguably in the military, certainly on land.
And you're saying that the imposter syndrome
is strong. But I was just thinking when you were
talking, I think, I mean, it can be perceived
as a negative element. But ultimately, if you
are a humble first responder, especially if you
do fire an EMS, there's such a massive. skill
set that you've got to be on top of looking at
it, not so much as, as imposter and allowing
that to come in, but the fear of what if, you
know, and I think that's what always kept me
going after 14 years, which isn't long compared
to a lot of people's careers. I was still very
anxious in a good way about, you know, am I going
to. evaluate this patient, right? Am I going
to push the right drugs? Am I going to be intubate?
Am I going to be able to take the door? You know,
all these things. And you go on scene and you're
okay, but it's that anxiety that causes you to
keep training, to stay fit, to study, to take
extra classes. Whereas that arrogance that we
see in some people, it's the opposite. And they're
walking around and beating their chest and belittling
the probies. And then they're the ones usually
that, you know, chicken with your head cut off
when you're on the fire scene. Because you don't
have that. So I think that that anxiety can be
really tempered in a good way and keep you on
your toes. Because at 30 years old, a 30 year
veteran that's a humble firefighter will still
be learning. And if someone can still be the
student of 30 years, then you sure as shit better
be when you're only five years in. Absolutely.
One of my favorite things to see is. Like the
first day of a new firefighter getting on the
rig, when they ask the famous question, so what
do I do? You know, this is your job. You know,
usually where do we put them? On the nozzle.
Your job is to get the line off and the line
to the door, leave the line. You know, you're
going to make entry in the nozzle, right? Don't
lose it. Don't give it up. Yeah, don't lose it.
Don't give it up. Sit on it. And then it's usually
followed up with like, but I don't want to screw
up. or something somewhat questionable on that
line okay well then let's go through it we'll
talk about it if you want to deploy a line let's
deploy a line we'll talk about it you know we'll
go through it with you so if that does happen
today which we know unless you're in a bigger
city nowadays fires becoming very low house fires
are becoming very low as a event where our ems
calls are through the roof now training is so
important so now you do get that maybe We'll
say once, six times a year, you get that fire.
So that one and the sixth time, when you show
up, you're already comfortable pulling that line
and getting it to what you need. They're not
worried about, am I going to screw this up because
we've practiced it? And I think building that
confidence really does help. And then even, you
know, I pull lines all the time when I get the
chance to. I don't mind. It's something that
we need to do. It's still a diminishing skill.
I don't care if you got 30 years on or one year
on. It's a diminishing skill like everything
else in this job. If you don't start an IV for
six months, you're probably not going to do a
really good job starting IVs for the next few
months. So I think that has a lot to do with
it and keeping a positive mindset. And that's
really what I like that the department I'm at
is everything we do, the chief tries to do is
that positive outlook on, oh, you're training?
Okay. I've been out training with the crews and
the chief jumps in with the training. He's part
of the crew. Put me in. What do you want me to
do? What are we doing? That shows the younger
personnel that, hey, here's our chief that wants
to come out and train with us, wants to be part
of it, that, hey, he's not just in the office
doing his chief duties. He wants to come out
and continue his learning as well. Yeah. Well,
I mean, if you look at why we all signed up,
like you said, you're post 9 -11 generation,
so am I. It's because you want to make the world
better. I would argue that someone who's the
right fit to be the chief of a fire department
still has that in them and would want every so
often, you know, are you doing a fitness test
today? All right, hold my beer. Let's do this.
You know what I mean? And like you said, oh,
we're throwing ladders. We're flowing. We're,
you know, going to the flashover trailer. Yeah,
absolutely. I want to come. Obviously, you can't
do it all the time. But once in a while, you'd
think that you would be like, you know, extrication,
whatever. And it's funny because I actually remember
the last place I worked. I put in for, they did
offer some of the educational reimbursement.
I put in for VMR, the operational one, and I
already had it. And he's like, but the chief
I was talking to was like, well, you already
have this. Why are you doing it again? And I'm
like, well, that fundamentally is the problem
with the fire service. You're looking at like
a box check -in. I'm looking at it as like, I've
got, you know, at this point, what, 13, 12, 13
years in. I want a week of solid tool time. so
that I can re -up my skills. And the next extrication
we get, I'm not like trying to remember, you
know, because I mean, especially as you know,
extrication, you don't get cars all the time.
It's a skill that is more perishable. So instead
I get a full week of cutting and clamshells and
tunneling and all the things that we did. And
now I'm, you know, I'm completely up on it again.
And just like you said, with pulling hose, is
pulling a cross lay hard? No, but it's about
reps. It's about when was the last time you pulled
a cross lay? When was the last time someone had
spaghettied it when they folded it? And now you
have to mitigate that. Those are the things.
It's not about knowing how to do it. It's how
recently did you do it? Absolutely. The more
time you put in to doing the reps and whether
it's you do it once a shift, some people are
out there every shift, want to pull lines every
shift. It doesn't have to be every shift. Just
as long as you're comfortable, you know, I would
say we're probably about once to maybe twice
a month that we're doing multiple reps with just
pulling lines. Then, you know, other days might
be maybe we're doing search or we're going through
scene size ups. One of the favorite things I
do is the old front porch sitting out front in
front of the apparatus bay and telling one of
the young guys, hey, that house over there, what
do you notice about those windows on the side?
And he's looking and he's like, what do you mean?
I said, what's that small one in between the
two stories? And it just wasn't hitting it. That's
an exterior stairwell on the inside of the house.
That's the landing. So we went through that rep
of, hey, when you pull up on scene as a firefighter,
you should still be looking at these houses.
Because that's your only way up to the second
story unless you're going through a window. And
those kind of reps, they can be something as
simple as that. You know, hey, we're just driving
down the road today. Let's talk about, let's
stop in front of this house and say, hey, if
there was a fire in that window, what would we
do? What's our steps? You know, and then that
also first goes back to, well, if you're on the
ladder today, what's your job at this house?
What are you going to do if you have a second
story fire? Where's your ladders going to go?
Where are you going to throw your first two?
You know? That all comes into play and it doesn't
have to be anything big. It can be tabletop.
But as long as you're putting yourself through
the reps, it seems like the more you do or the
more involved you are with doing it, the easier
it becomes to recall those little skills that
you don't use very often. Like you, I would say
in the last two years, I pulled tools off a truck
on accident twice. you don't use them that often
so it is a very much a diminishing skill it does
come back pretty quickly but if you don't practice
or at least get them out and focus on you know
using them you know it makes it that much harder
on scene because something as simple as is it
left or right to open your spreaders makes a
big difference you know cutters open spreaders
closed when you get up to a car is important
because those are ready to be used and just getting
in that mindset and practicing that really saves
time, which in turn saves lives. Absolutely.
Another area when we're on the training topic
that came to me, I mean, you can do this absolutely
in the fireside too, but especially in EMS, being
that black cloud, that grim reaper medic, you
know, I have a code save tally of zero in 14
years. You know, and I'm just, it's just, I get
those calls. I get the brain bleeds. I get the
triple A's. I get the, you know, the traumatic
arrests and all the things that we just don't
come back from or the diseased heart that refuses
to start beating again, such as life. But what
would have been amazing in EMT and, you know,
paramedic school, let's say medic school as a
mega code that you work those algorithms and
you do the compressions, right? You defibrillate,
right? You give the right meds. And the person
doesn't come back. You might even get PAs, but
you don't actually get the person. They say,
good job. Sometimes, yeah, they're rough, beautiful.
But in some scenarios, do everything right, get
congratulated, and they still die. Because that's
the real world. And even in the fire scenario,
sometimes, I don't know, make the attack and
then pull everyone out and say you couldn't get
to them. And it's not your fault. Everything
that you did was right. Because this... do A
plus B plus C equals a success. And then, you
know, all you see on TV is them holding the baby
as they walk out. As we know, it's not like go
in there thinking you're already defeated, but
understand that if it doesn't have the outcome
that you are projecting, that doesn't mean that
you didn't do the good job. And there shouldn't
be moral injury from the fact that you worked
an incredible code and the person still died.
Absolutely. I was a AHA instructor for years.
both the ACLS and the PALS side. And most of
the scenarios we did, you're absolutely correct,
patient lived. We got pulse back. That was just
generally how the scenarios went. But preparing
yourself for the fact that these calls aren't
going to always go that way. I think in my career,
if I had, I know of two, maybe a third that walked
out 100 % cognitive after cardiac arrest is a
true safe. And those are rare. And if you can
put that realism element into the training that
you do, absolutely. I laugh because you brought
up the backing out. We had recently done what
we're calling a command scenario along with they
were advancing hose lines searching at the same
time. So they were doing hose line searches.
And they picked me to be the battalion car. So
I was acting as command officer. I'm in the station
cooking dinner, by the way. And talking on the
radio, which is actually 100 % realistic, you
got two or three things going on at once while
communicating. And the guys go in, they're talking
to me, and I'm doing all the assignments and
everything. And I heard one of the guys say,
it's getting really dark and hot in here. And
I knew what the guy was about to do to me. I'm
like, he's going to call a mayday. I know it's
coming, you know? So as I'm getting ready to
say, everybody evacuate the structure, we're
going defensive. He calls a mayday. Now, what
do you do? Yeah. And that is the realism of what
can happen. I mean, I, that recently happened
in a jurisdiction just North me where they were
upstairs working and had to bail out a window.
It happens and it happens quicker than you think.
So for me, it was a great learning tool because
I knew I could sense what was coming by how he
described it and the conditions. And I'm getting
ready to do exactly what I should do, which is
this room's about to flash. Let's get everybody
out. And he throws a mayday in the mix. You know,
yes, everybody knows it's a training scenario,
but now you have to direct the crews to get this
firefighter out. Reposition hand lines, you know,
move other crews in the place to try to keep
this fire at bay so you can get your crew member
out. Yes, it's all fictitious, but that's realistic.
100%. It happens all the time in the American
Fire Service. And unfortunately, they're not
all good outcomes. And especially when it's one
of your brothers or sisters, that's the person
that's in there. I mean, that adds another toll.
So, yeah, I think getting, I think you're 100
% correct. They're getting yourself. ready for
that potential we're not going to get them out
scenario or we're not going to save them it's
something that we should be aiming at um now
calls go 100 the way you want them to you know
we can't save everybody um you can do 100 great
care and they can still have a bad outcome and
unfortunately that is just the way the world
is and the way things work and we don't have
any control over that yeah absolutely i mean
obviously have you know good outcome A lot of
the time, but yeah, throw those in unexpectedly
so that people have to kind of process that.
And so I like that, that idea of running command
where you're making dinner too, because you're
not staring at a training building where you're
probably not getting the elevated heart rate
because you're so detached and you're hearing
this. I'm sure it seemed a lot more real than
if you were standing in front of a burn building.
Absolutely. So I was in the kitchen, they were
out utilizing the. the gear room and the other
bays as their multi -room structure and they
were just training reps right training reps hey
we want you to run command so you can we can
talk back and forth kind of interior to command
radio traffic as well and i'm like well hey just
so you guys know like i did a few from the battalion
car beforehand and then like hey i gotta go and
make dinner keep going like i'll work through
it because i wanted the challenge call it multitasking
You know, multitasking really isn't a thing.
It's just our body's ability, our brain's ability
to go, Hey, I've seen this before. I'm going
to continue. I know how this works. And I was
just kind of sitting there doing my thing. And
even my assistant chief came in and goes, Oh,
you're training while cooking. That's cool. Like,
I'm like, I wanted the challenge of doing it
and we need to eat. So the guys out there that
we were talking back for the ads and realism,
yes, my, my heart rate wasn't up, but if you,
you know what I've seen with, whether it's my
chief running command or whether it's an officer
running command out of a car, that ability to
be able to step back away from the scene keeps
their heart rate low. Now your heart rate's low,
you're thinking clearer, you're making better
judgment decisions. And if we can take that and
then put it into the firefighters that are doing
the work on the inside that are not the command
staff to be able to do the same thing, man, your
heart rate ain't going to be 60. But let's say
we get to 105 versus 165. Now you're able to
make clear judgments, calls. You're thinking
clearer. Your senses are heightened more. And
then you add in the physical fitness side of
it where you're not physically tired, where your
body's not drained, that those reps add up to
leading to a well -polished crew when it comes
to working on a scene. Yeah, that reminds me
as well. When I'm my last apartment, they were
planning a high rise training and they were doing
it in a two story building. And I had said, well,
how are we going to simulate a 30 story climb
prior to this? And he goes, oh, we'll just get
you to walk around the building a couple of times
first. And I literally probably facepalmed. But
I was just like, this is the problem is that
you don't have to create scenarios that are extremely
complex and kind of, you know. stump the chump
kind of element but if you are talking about
a scenario that would absolutely require exertion
i mean you know a high -rise strip is 100 pounds
of gear you know i'm back when i was working
i was 168 you know that's that's a lot of weight
and now you got to go 30 floors up and then you
start working that's where you can't just be
in the building all right go take the standpipe
you know on the second floor and then attack
it on the third You've got to do something that's
going to simulate what it would take to get all
that gear there in the first place and then go
to work. And then in the scenario I put together,
then we intubated the mannequin at the end. So
now you've got a finite skill as well, or fine
motor skill, excuse me. So I think this is another
area where sometimes you don't have to create
like an unwinnable scenario, but are you simulating
the physiological response through exertion and
or stress? that a firefighter would actually
encounter on this particular scenario or are
you dumbing it down so much that they will actually
be shocked when they have the real one yeah um
and then that scenario i was talking about that
was the last one we did and i think that was
evolution six or seven so by that time you know
i hate to say those guys but those guys were
getting pretty tired because i was the guy that
was running the radio I had the easy job, a hundred
percent, the easiest job out there. Cause I was
standing there going like this, you know, holding
that mic up to your mouth and those guys were
getting tired and then had to turn around and
they threw the mayday in. Now we got to go get
the firefighter. The funny part is, is the guy
that called the mayday was the only one that
was thinking about calling the mayday. So nobody
else had a clue. So it was realistic. You're
physically tired. You're drained. Oh crap. Now
we got to go get our buddy. And yeah, if you're
going to, like you said, if you're doing a 30
story high rise, well, you better be climbing
stairs, you know, 15 times to simulate that 30
stories. Cause you don't know how your body might
not know how your body's going to react at 30
stories up by the time you get there. Not to
mention what's your time like you I'm 156 pounds
wet on a normal day, you know, add gear. There's
another 80 pounds, you know, now I had tools
pack, whatever else. Yeah, that would be a lot.
We don't have high rises. I got two, maybe three
-story buildings. I'm okay with that. But even
then, three -story buildings, how are we getting
there? What lines are we taking up? Are we taking
a standpipe pack and a three -inch as a supply
line or two and a half as a supply line? What
are we doing to get there? How are we going to
stretch it once we do get there? What's our air
going to be like? Just doing them simulated trainings.
If you're going to do a... three -story and let's
say we're going to call it an apartment building
empty out your bay floor you know you're talking
we'll say 60 foot wide create some obstacles
and then go go walk either jog or walk some laps
around the station a few times and then go do
the scenario in your gear then go on air as you're
already heavy breathing and now go do it because
that's what's going to happen as you go up them
steps is your heart rate's going to jump your
breathing is going to go on Now we got to simulate
getting that line in place and it might be a
two and a half. Well, how many people does it
take to move to two and a half? You know, you're
talking a third story, three people minimum,
just to move it. How often do we do that? A few
times in our career, if you're a smaller town,
smaller city, maybe a little bit more if you're
a bigger city, but that having that mindset of
let's create it and make it as realistic as possible.
We're not just dragging this line really as a.
positive benefit to developing and maintaining
the eliteness that you can get in this job. Absolutely.
Well, you mentioned that you transitioned from
one department to the other. What was behind
the change and then contrast the two departments?
So first department I was at, they're both about
the same size, 16 ,000 to 18 ,000 residents between
the city and the township that we covered. First
department I worked at, California Swing. So
you're day on, day off, day on, day off, day
on, and then four off for the people that don't
know what that is. At the time, I'm like, man,
this is way better than a 24 on, 48 off shift
schedule because you got that four -day window.
As I went through my career, you can say certain
calls I was on. Being in a smaller town, you
got to know people. I've been on enough. I had
enough calls with people that I knew, whether
it was their family, themselves, or the death
of a fellow friend that was a firefighter who
I was on that call, that it took a toll. And
I give my ex -wife credit to this because she
gave me an ultimatum. Get help or I'm gone. And
I went and... Went through therapy for a while,
continued to work, but went through therapy,
did EMDR for a while. Got a little bit better.
But ultimately, I ended up not being happy where
I was. There was too much bad memories there
to where I wasn't happy coming into work just
because of everything that had went on. Ultimately,
that led to a divorce. And I think that was kind
of the final straw. There was nothing holding
me here anymore. A lot of the guys that I knew
had either moved on or retired. A lot of the
younger, you know, it was a very young department
now other than myself and a couple others. And
the department I'm currently at was looking to
go from part -time to a full -time department.
And they were starting a new shift I had never
heard of at the time, which was a 24 -72, which
is your favorite shift. Is it that obvious? Yes.
I happened to know the chief. I had known him
for a few years prior through, you know, fire
department, different fire department things
that we had done together. And I'm like, man,
I would love to go work for him. I'd love to,
you know, start something new. It'd be really
cool to start a department of the full -time
staff. Not many people get to do that. And I
was like, man, the schedule would be awesome.
And you start doing the math and without even
taking vacation, it was a 21 day difference.
in a year yeah and it's like man that's 21 more
free days and at the time you know what i didn't
know was that hey not only is the 21 day difference
that's one more recovery day um with my schedule
i would come home from shift on my quote in between
days And by the time you – you never really mentally
recovered. It was a little bit of a physical
recovery. But you were never 100 % there the
first two off days until you got to that four
-day. And even then, that first day on your four
-day was rough, you know, especially if you had
a rough night. I have younger kids still. And,
you know, I'm coming home to a baby at that time.
She's now six. You know, you're coming home from
a baby up to she was four when I made the switch,
a four -year -old, that's a lot. And then you
add the stresses of work, family life, you know,
relationships not working out. That's a lot of
stress. And if you can't have that time to recoup,
it really wore on me. Like I said, to the point
where I wasn't happy coming to work. And I made
that switch and I started working the new schedule.
And I'm like, man, this is really nice. You know,
I've had a second job for most of my career.
This is the first era of my career where my second
job doesn't involve anything but the fire service.
A couple of days a week, I do work for a small
garage door company. And it's just physical labor,
but it's something different and challenging.
And it's not a lot of hours, but it's a little
bit extra. But what I'm finding is, is that with
my work schedule, if I do have that bad shift
that that next day, you have the ability to kind
of relax a little bit offload if you need to.
Also, what I did find is I'm driving now, I'm
driving a half an hour to work back and forth
versus eight minutes. And that half hour is my.
I call it my solace time, whether it's I'm going
to work. So I'm getting leaving the stuff from
home at home, getting ready for my day at work
or my offload time coming home. That allows me
that little bit of time to just offload anything
I hadn't before I get home. So I usually meditate
after I get home from shift, which in turn has
really helped me be able to on that recovery
day to really mind my body. And then also look
at myself mentally as far as, you know, how am
I feeling? The hard question that nobody really
wants to ask, how am I feeling myself? And I
am very fortunate that I have many great people
in my inner circle. Three people who I went through
Sable Warrior with, as well as one, two fellow
firefighters that they're a couple that Steph,
she's like my sister. She's a person that no
matter what, I can call with anything and she'll
listen. And having that complete inner circle
and the extra day off just makes a huge difference.
And the physical wear is less. We still get those
shifts where you're up all but a half hour of
the night. But knowing, hey, I got an extra day
off, when you come home, your body just relaxes.
You just kind of get in a nice, easy state versus,
I got to go back to work in a day and a half.
I got to make the best out of this day. You don't
have to now. So that was the transition. And
that really was part of the whole overall movement
from department to department. And honestly,
as much as I love the building I was in, I love
the people I work with. It was probably one of
the better decisions I needed to make. I just
didn't know at the time that that's what needed
to happen. Well, firstly, I mean, that's so.
So powerful to hear for a number of reasons.
Before I kind of dive into some of them, when
you got into the department, what or who was
behind the decision to go to 2472? The reason
I ask that, I've had some friends of mine who
are doing exactly the same thing, part -time
and or volunteer into a career. And I've told
them, look, if you are going to do it from scratch,
why not do the right shift off the bat? And in
one case, my friend. They went to 4896. And I
was like, oh, my God. And now you're locked into
that. And now you've got to work away from that.
So it sounds like you had some progressive people
in this development. So do you know the backstory
of why that shift was chosen? I don't know the
full backstory because I don't want to misquote
it. But from what I understand is chief at the
time was we are a small city that's been part
time for years and for that volunteer. And how
can we draw for this initial hiring process,
do it through a lateral process, good people
with good experience, but also get a decent level
in there as well. He also, I think, understands
very well the toll that the job does to you.
I think, you know, so how can I get them a benefit
without getting them a benefit, right? Like would
be a good way to say it. And that was, if we
go to the schedule, which... At the time, I think
there was one other department in Ohio doing
it. Now there's three that I think that I'm not
sure where the idea came from from him. But I
think at the time he was looking at how can I
make this a desirable department to be and get
good people, but do the best for my people. And
it was weird going through a four shift system
because you're used to either seeing somebody
coming on. or seeing somebody going off there's
a whole shift we don't see unless we trade or
somebody's filling in on a little bit over time
there is so there's it's a really unique dynamic
that you don't think about that every shift has
a shift they don't see but you see them here
or there and uh i know for me the you know the
few things i've learned is that with Our chief
currently, he's very pro firefighter dynamic.
You know, a lot of the things that we do goes
off the, excuse me, the inverted pyramid model.
So, you know, yes, he is the chief, but a lot
of things we do, we're up here. He's down here.
How can I, you know, how can I make the tips
down below? How can I make the environment better
for my people? Or how can I, you know, what can
I help to do help with help? make easier for
people to do when they come to work. And I think
a lot of that positive mindset of putting your
people first is what drove the decision. I don't
know 100%, but I do know that I think it was
the right call. We got good quality people. I
love the people I work with. I like the way our
shifts fall with our part -timers. They worked
every sixth day. So we see the same. two to three
people every 12th day so every third shift for
us and it makes a nice dynamic you're able to
have shifts within a shift and you know how each
other works you train with each other you're
able you know you know who can cook who can't
as funny as that sounds you know that you can
send them to the store because they're not going
to cook today like whatever it might be but it
makes it so that you as a firefighter coming
in are less stressed um and You know, for me,
I know if I take one day off, I have seven days
off at that point before I have to go back into
work. That's a big thing for me with having younger
kids. So that's a benefit. That's a huge benefit.
You know, I get one day off. I get seven days
with my kids, potentially, if I'm going on vacation.
That's as a father that wants to be there for
their kids. That's a big. I guess you could call
it, you know, I, I try to, when I make sure that
when I schedule stuff, you know, yes, I might
have them at a sitter for a short time, or let's
say I'm at my part -time job this day. I try
to always make sure I get one full day a week
that are most of a day that I can spend with
them doing something, whether we're just at home
or going somewhere, you know, it can be as simple
as a park, swimming, whatever it might be. And
I think part of that schedule. is driven by that
it's very family oriented as well yeah i mean
i agree 100 you probably heard me say that we
we've always chased dollars and cents but the
ultimate currency is time with our family and
even i've had people recently say yeah i'm a
fan of it but what about those guys in the stations
that hardly ever run and i'm like well firstly
most of them usually paid their dues in the busy
station and they tend to move you know to somewhere
quieter which i think is perfectly acceptable
as long as they keep training. You know, you've
kind of earned that position. But it doesn't
matter whether you ran one call or 20 calls,
you still were told you can't be with your family
for 56 hours. So that's what we need to be talking
about. Oh, were they running? It doesn't matter.
I mean, are they fit? Are they training a lot?
It's beautiful. So they're ready because we all
know that those plane crashes or those school
shootings normally happen in some really kind
of random area that no one was expecting. That's
the men and women that you are going to have
responding initially to those events. So, you
know, don't stop worrying about are they filling
24 hours full of calls and just start thinking
that, you know, we are the insurance policy.
And some of us are used a lot more than others.
But ultimately, you are asking these people,
you are telling these people you cannot go home
for this amount of time. So why should that be
56 for fire and 40 for admin? Hearing that currency,
like you're talking about, I think is beautiful.
You mentioned as well about the part -time job,
the garage door job. This is another pushback
that I get, which is, again, it nauseates me
when someone like a chief or whoever it is, or
a city manager says, well, if we give them more
time off, they'll just work more. Because firstly,
you're not in charge of someone on their days
off. And secondly, if you're talking about overtime,
you're the one that created those holes in the
first place. So make the changes that will bring
people back into your department. And those overtime
vacancies won't be there to work in the first
place. But on the other side of the coin, of
course, educating people don't work overnight
in an ER on your days off. Don't work for a private
ambulance company. But I'd love to kind of, you
know, dive into that. I work the same California
schedule. Mine was four 24s, one on one off.
And then we had a four or a six alternating.
And those 24 on 24 hours are brutal. Absolutely
brutal. So talk to me about, you know, the second
job, the importance of it. Are you still at home
in the evenings? Are you still sleeping well?
Because it's debunking some of the BS arguments
I hear that we shouldn't be working on our days
off. Yeah. So for me, it was a let's just make
a little bit extra money type job. The it came
it came back into fruition, like I always work,
like I always work second job. My ex -wife was
a stay -at -home mom, and I prayed for her. You
know, I give her big praise for that. Just, you
know, wanted to be home with her kids. And she
went back to work, and then as the kids got a
little bit older, and, you know, and then I was
kind of more of a stay -at -home parent. Well,
when you get divorced, you know, sometimes you
got to look at, hey, how can I better, let's
better ourselves and better our family. And I'm
like. i want to do something like i want to make
sure i continue with it i want to have a second
job just a small second income just something
to help put a little buffer you know whether
it's if i can build up you know let's say five
grand into a oh crap account we'll call it you
know that my car breaks down whatever it might
be the money's just sitting there i don't have
to worry about where it's going to come from
maybe not having to pull out my savings whatever
that might be that rainy day fund and I happened
to reach out because I still run volunteer with
a small department where I live. And I reached
out to my volunteer chief. I was like, I just,
I'm going to need to get a second job, you know,
maybe the first year to just get me through this,
you know, that when you're with somebody for
17 years, you get used to a certain, whether
it's lifestyle or way of living or whatever you
want to call it. And it was like, I need to,
make sure I land on my feet a hundred percent,
but also, you know, I got to get a different
rhythm now. It's a whole new rhythm, whole new
lifestyle. So, you know, I work six to seven
hours, you know, a couple of days a week extra.
So, you know, up to 14 hours, maybe 16 hours
a week extra. And I do that on purpose. I want
at least one free day during the week and that
won't be forever. You know, that's not my end
goal with this. Um, it's more of a just giant
savings account at this point for me, but I also
didn't want to do anything to do with the fire
service because I knew what doing fire or EMS
related jobs, the extra stress that added to
me as well. Um, you know, you're now you're taking
what you might see over a career. Now we're timesing
it by one and a half, you know, cause you're
doing extra 24 a week or, you know, maybe 36
hours a week. And. You just taking chances and
adding more in. And I knew what it did to me
and that I didn't want to deal with the extra
stress of that, whether it's mental stress or
physical stress. And, you know, I got fortunate
that he was like, yeah, go talk to, you know,
Doug. And he's got, you know, he'll get you right
in. You know, he's done it before the help out.
And I started working there as well. You know,
at that time, he was a captain on my volunteer
department. Because I've always had this sense
of serve the community you live in as well. And
I've been there now almost three years. And it's
challenging to say it's just something different.
You know, I'm still learning different things
each day with it. It doesn't sound like the most
enticing thing, but it's like what we do in the
fire service. It's customer service. I mean,
everything you do with it, it's the same notion,
just a different form. And, you know, they're
not light, so it's a little bit of a workout.
at the same time so you're doing a little bit
of physical fitness with it as well and uh that
was kind of the reason i got into doing that
and you know i would say the majority of people
that have second jobs generally has some sort
of whether it's profession they did or job they
did beforehand that now they just continue to
do that part -time whether it's construction
lawn care um you know i know if you guys have
rentals um Just something along those lines that
they do for extra money on the side. You know,
you always want to better for yourself and your
family. And I think that's kind of the big thing
behind it. And that was my drive behind it. 100
% was I want to continue to better my family.
So this is why it's so important to hear people,
you know, some people push against the 24 -72
because they don't want to lose the overtime.
which again, you know, is extremely selfish if
you think about it, because you're saying, let's
carry on the ill health in our profession so
I can, you know, live above my means really.
And again, I was a single father. I get, totally
get a single income, you know, in that position
is really hard, but it's reframing it. Like no
one's saying you can't earn more money. Just
stop doing it as a firefighter. You know, if
you went into most jobs and they said, well,
it's a 40 hour work week, but we expect you to
work 80. you would probably turn on your heels
and walk back out again. It's the same with this.
No one was telling you that there's guaranteed
overtime. To perform optimally as a firefighter,
a 24 -72 is it. If you want to choose more and
get less recovery, you're opting to be a worse
and worse firefighter. It's just hands down that
is it. It's just pure science. But to have a
separate side hustle. where you enjoy it. You've
got a different tribe, a different identity.
So you're not just all firefighter. And God forbid
you get fired, you get hurt, whatever the thing
is, or you simply retire. Now you've got that
to go into. And then you've also got a financial
safety net somewhat for your family. So if you're
all in on the fire service and it goes away,
now what have you got? Nothing, you know, so
even that conversation is like we are incredible
human beings with this amazing skill set. Think
about what else you love doing and go do that.
You know, be an entrepreneur, work, work for
someone that you really enjoy working for, whatever
that looks like. But, you know, pushing against
really revolutionizing firefighter health because
you rely on overtime is the completely wrong
way of thinking about it. You need the money.
How else can you earn the money? There's a good
chance you're going to find out you earn more
doing that than being a firefighter anyway. Definitely.
And, you know, for the ones that do do other
jobs outside the fire service, you're generally
coming home at night, you know, right around
dinner time. So you're getting that family time
that you normally wouldn't get. We still have
overtime. It happens. I mean, that's that's normal.
Any job you're going to have that's full time,
you're going to have overtime. But it's not as
much as what you're used to seeing. You might
have 12 hours in a two -week period, and it might
be a month, month and a half before you see another
12 -hour shift pop up. We are generally normally
not allowed to do more than 36 hours. And looking
at a safety standpoint, you're pushing it. If
you were up the night before and you didn't get
a chance to lay down during the day at all. because
let's say you're out on calls all day you know
that's a big deal um and our chief is very uh
safety driven has a safety mindset and he's like
if you're tired go lay down like by all means
you know get that little safety nap in get yourself
you know make yourself 100 or at least as close
to 100 as you can get and i think with you know
for me Yes, I might work six, seven extra hours
a day, maybe sometimes an eight -hour day. But
I have the ability to come home. If my kids are
with me, I'm with my kids. And you get that kind
of refreshing, hey, at least I'm at my own house.
It's not I'm coming off of overtime, coming home,
putting my kids in bed, and I'm going to bed.
So it's more of a good little mental reset as
well. With our schedule, coming off that swing,
if you had a second job, if you did any in -between
days, you were beat. You would go three days
without seeing your kid, potentially, and that
could be with zero overtime, but a second job.
I'm a proponent of that I'm going to provide
for my family, but I'm also going to be there
for my family. I think too much, Again, my opinion
only is that if you had asked me 10 years ago,
you know, you know, what do you do? I've been
like, I'm a firefighter and I introduced myself
that way. Now, hi, I'm Patrick, you know, nice
to meet you. Oh, hey, what do you do? Oh, I work
for the fire service. Oh, okay. You know, it's
not what, it's not what defines me. My job is
not what defines me. I define myself. And, you
know. That's just a job I do. And I think having
that positive mindset towards that way of thinking
takes a little bit of stress off as well as we're
not letting what we do for work define who we
are as a person. Absolutely. And that creates
that kind of positive little note that if you
do have that bad shift or that bad call, that
you try to take it personal as much. For us that
do it, we've all had it. And you do take a little
bit of a personal hit over a bad call. Whether
you did everything right and it's a bad outcome,
you take that little bit of hit. Yeah, I just
wish I would have turned out different. Well,
we did the best we could. You know, we didn't
have a great outcome. That's OK. And just kind
of keeping that positive mindset in that way,
I think really that with an extra day to recuperate.
really seems to make for a more positive environment
with better morale well you talked as well about
the 21 extra days not only is there that rest
and recovery the extra shift between every 24
but also that's 21 days less that you see trauma
each year and it's not that any of us are running
from it but as i've always said this you know
i was chomping at the bit as a young firefighter
and then i kind of wisened up a bit as i went
through There are no medals for seeing the most
shit. You know, there's a lot of calls where,
I mean, you know, one of the last calls in my
second last apartment, you know, it was a missing
homeless woman. We smelt her before we got there.
And I told my crew, look, just go back. No one
else needs to see this. And I went there, you
know, worked the scene. I mean, it was grotesque.
There was no possibility she was surviving, you
know, what I saw. So I go back, tell everyone,
yeah, you know, obvious signs of death. We're
done. And they don't have to have that in their
little mental Rolodex. And I had the same thing
when I was at Anaheim, but in reverse. We were
young firefighters. We had a horrendous decapitation
of a three -year -old in the car wreck. And she
was entrapped. So we worked the mother who was
still alive and she was transported. And then
we went back and it was supposed to go back and
remove the body for the coroner. And my captain
and engineer ordered us to stay in the station.
And we were all, you know, again, our egos were
going crazy. Like, no, no, no, we're okay. But
he said, look, you're going to see so many horrible
things in your life. You do not need to see this.
And he was absolutely right. Would we be in okay?
Probably. But was it another, you know, drop
in that bucket or however you want to use the
analogy, rock in the backpack? Absolutely. It
would have been. So 21 shifts less of trauma
exposure. and 21 shifts more rest and recovery,
when we're talking the mental health equation,
that is a huge impact on that conversation. Absolutely.
I had the same situations as you. Literally,
as a young medic, I had a guy on a suicide be
like, just stay in the truck. I'll go in. I'll
do what I need to do. You don't need to see that.
Vice versa, a month and a half ago, we had a...
person down unknown walk in the room i'm like
you guys just stay at the door like again same
same thought you don't need to see it it's one
less thing and that yes we're taking on extra
burden by being the person that says that because
now we're seeing it but we've seen it before
you know this is one where maybe we've seen it
before and you're like okay and then you you
have the ability to self -reflect and look and
go did it affect me did it bother me Or we have
that out to talk to somebody like, hey, we had
this deceased person today. This is what it was.
They were down for at least a day. It wasn't
the best thing. I just need to get that off my
chest. Well, we also had the capacity to see
one more person because someone told us not to
see that person. You see what I'm saying? So
we didn't see all the things as young people
and then all the things as older. We were under
good leaders that told us not to go and see certain
things. And I think that gave us more latitude
to then be the person that does see them and
tell the next young person not to. Absolutely.
There's been a few times I can think of over
my career where I'm glad I didn't have to see
some things. And I've heard stories about other
calls that I was glad I wasn't on. And that's
been recently. Where I was like, man, if I was
actually working today, like that would have
been really bad. And knowing how I would react
because it would trigger something. And so, yes,
on both sides, it's a good and bad thing. You
know, you know, not all your limits, but you
also have the ability, the capacity to take one
more because there was, like you said, because
there was one less. And then you're also now
you're teaching the younger generation. It's
OK as you get older to take one more because
you took one less. Yeah, absolutely. It definitely
teaches that right. Uh, progressional, I guess
we could call it progressional mindset of, you
know, help them out when they're younger so that
when they're older, you know, they have that
capacity. Yeah. And teach them. It's okay to
just not see if you don't need to be in there,
you don't need to see it. You know, these guys,
I mean, sadly, luckily I haven't been around
many people like this, but you know, the ones
that take pictures at car wrecks and all those
kinds of things, like it's a badge of honor to
be able to see it. Like, no. I guarantee you,
you're going to be the one that's really going
to be hurting in a few years because, you know,
if you feel you need to validate your own ego
by walking around telling everyone how horrific
the call was, it's probably an indication that
you actually are starting to struggle. So I think
it takes a grounded, humble, young firefighter
to listen to an experienced medic and go, OK,
you know, I trust you. I won't see that. Thank
you. And then, like you said, fast forward 10
years. Now you're that medic shielding. other
young people from it yeah um the ability to teach
without teaching right you could call it you're
teaching them how to uh maybe take something
away from them having to be seen but also that
later in your career hey you might have this
happen again you know pass it on pass it forward
We do that in all different forms, whether it's
a deceased person, it's that bad call. But also
there's the old adage of, hey, this is a crime
scene until proven otherwise. So now you're actually
doing two jobs. You're preserving the scene.
You're not, you know, the detectives come and
do their thing. Law enforcement can handle their
side of it. And there wasn't a whole bunch of
extra personnel in there as well. And if it unfortunately
was something bad, you know, they don't have
to deal with getting drug in the court. Over
it. So you kind of take on that responsibility
when you do that, but you're also in turn helping
them physically and mentally by not overloading
that container. Because we can only take so much.
And for everybody, that's different. I've seen
where the first call, first traumatic call person
was on, they were done. That was all it took.
I can't do this to where you get, you know, we
call them the old salty dogs. You know, the guys
that back in the day that could see whatever,
just walk away like nothing was wrong for their
whole life and just held it in. You see both
sides of it and then anything in between. I have
definitely learned that passing on the knowledge
you've learned about self -care, especially after
calls, is way more important than trying to be
tough or look tough. It isn't. And asking for
help or asking just to talk to somebody is okay.
And that's the important thing is teaching, getting
the information out there that teach these, the
younger firefighters, younger medics, even young
cops, the same thing of it's okay to talk to
somebody about what you see because it's going
to help you in the long run. Yeah, absolutely.
Well, going back to the actual shift pattern,
when you need to work on overtime or when you're
doing a time trade, for example, or a shift swap,
when I think about the old California one, a
lot of times that pretty much guaranteed either
a 48 or even a 72. With the 24 -72, I can see
how there's a potential where you would... Go
off for one shift and then come on to work that
trade or that overtime and then be off again.
So you don't have to actually do a 48 anymore.
Is that the case? It just depends on who you
trade with and how the overtime would fall. But
yes, there is that chance that you could be off
a shift and back on. But the positive side of
that is, even though two days later after that
shift, you're back on, is then you still have
three days off after that. Yeah. So you get both
sides. Yes, I might have to work an extra day
this month or an extra shift or whatever. It
might be half a shift, but I still have that
ability to come off shift then after my next
normal shift and have my total time off. So even
though you did pick up a shift or work a shift
or trade a shift, you still have, you know, the
few extra days a month to recover. And that truly
is a positive. side of that rotation is, you
know, like the 36 hour timeline with overtime.
Like once you're there, you're done. You shouldn't
work over 36 or, um, Hey, if you worked an overtime
shift in this, in this two weeks, maybe you shouldn't
pick up another one. You know, this have that
ability that somebody tell you, Hey, hard stop.
No. Or, you know, hey you probably shouldn't
work that like we have a rotational list so i
can't pick up today and then three days from
now pick up another one there's there's somebody
in there that's going to pick up it's going to
be ahead of me which forces me to step back i
think things like that protects us from ourselves
um because i mean i do love my job i love the
people i work with so you know oh i get to go
and i could go into work an extra day that's
all fine and dandy but what's that toll take
on me so it's a double -edged sword when you
look at the amount of ability we have to go in
to do our job versus what's really good for us
yeah 100 one more question before we go to mental
health and save a warrior When I think about
the 24 -48, obviously you've got, you know, let's
say your A shift and, you know, C shift has just
left, B shift is coming on tomorrow morning.
And, you know, I think of some of the shift wars
and tensions. Now you put an extra shift in between.
where it's not maybe directly the shift before
or shift after. What impact does that have, if
any at all, on the tension between the shifts,
which I know is usually the quiet stations, the
busy ones just get on with their job. But have
you noticed any difference between previous tensions
of shifts, a .k .a. shift wars and the 24 -72?
No real shift wars. I mean, everybody, you're
going to have tension. It doesn't matter sometimes.
A lot of times you'll have fun. I mean, like
we'll see some. So for me, I'm shift three. So
I don't ever see shift one. I just don't see
them unless I pick up overtime or one of us works
a trade. And not really tension. I mean, there's
definitely your morning. Sometimes you'll have
your morning struggles. You know, maybe a rig
got left low on fuel. Now I got to go fuel it.
It happens. you'll have that happen. But generally,
it's still like the old 24 -48 adage. It's a
shift before, a shift after. It's never that
oddball shift. I always laugh because I'll joke
around that, you know, let's say I left, let's
say a small jug of orange juice in the fridge.
Well, we share a fridge with shift one. Now my
orange juice is gone. Well, who took it? You
know, it's fun banner. Nobody really takes. That
the heart, but I don't think there's with this.
I don't think there's as much of that shift war
going on because everybody has a shift they don't
see. So I think that promotes and then promoting
a good positive environment as our chief does.
I don't think you have that much. I think things
get worked out on their own a lot easier. You
know, the ability to be like, hey, making up
a name, Charles, dude, last shift, you forgot
to feel the medic before you left. you know,
on your last call. Can you help me out next time
so I don't have to do it when I come into work?
Yeah, no problem. I think that alleviates some
of that tension between the shifts because you
have now that more open dialogue to be able to
just talk to each other. It's not always, you
don't get that stereotype that, you know, it's
B shift that always does the bad shift, you know,
or C shifts the clowns or A shifts the strict
guys. You just don't get that back and forth.
Well, I would imagine as well. With just a more
rested department that is not being forced and
or volunteering to fill immense amounts of overtime
and gets an extra shift between shifts that you
probably just have a better environment because
everyone's coming in less burnt out and more
rested. Definitely. It seems like that the extra
rest gives you a different mindset as well. I
know for me that does. If I can get in my own
bed for three nights, I'm a lot better than if
I'm in my own bed for two. Because usually what
I'm finding out is that I've been watching my
sleep, my sleep patterns. And the first night
home, I sleep at about 50%. And then I get 75
and then 90, 95 % by the, you know, by the end
before I go in the shift. And I also tend to
trend towards getting the bed earlier by my third
off day. I just, you can kind of trend yourself
down to where now I might not get a full eight,
but I'm at least at seven. I think that having
that extra day, you know, with, especially with
tracking my sleep, that I've noticed it to where
that work, I don't sleep well. I think it's just
a fact of years of running calls in the middle
of the night. My body's just entrained that when
you're in a building that is a fire station,
you're going to get toned out. So you don't fully
fall asleep. I know the nights I do because I
can't see straight for the first 30 seconds I'm
awake. It doesn't happen often. And I know that
when I get home the next day, that usually. it's
not as sound of a sleep as my normal sleep, but
I'm better because your body's still kind of
just readjusting to the environment you're in.
And then usually by day three of being off that,
like I said, I'm about 90 % heavy sleep pattern
and I am fully refreshed going into my shift.
I never thought about the. perspective that you
just gave on the quality of sleep in the station
i've talked about many many times that we never
get into deep sleep and it's understandable because
i say you're waiting to get woken up but if you
think about conditioning you know learning if
over and over again you say the moment you wake
up in your case you've got to run to the driver's
seat of a rig and navigate code three and then
you know maybe put up the aerial or whatever
the next job is from a dead sleep within i mean
we're not exaggerating when we say 60 90 seconds
when we look at our you know bed to door time
that's supposed to be what we know what we're
doing or the firefighters bunkering up and thinking
about right you know okay person's in trap what
am i going to do you know where's the ladder
etc etc if you do that over and over again and
obviously there's varying degrees of stress now
it's a you know tummy ache times four days so
you know you've got through the roof and then
you're like oh it's only this Of course, you're
not going to have a good quality of sleep because
your body is going to learn or your brain is
going to learn. Look, don't go to sleep fully
because we can't afford to be cross -eyed for
30 seconds when we wake up. I need you to wake
up and then, you know, shake your head and now
start driving through, you know, traffic. So,
you know, it makes sense on so many different
levels. But even that, there's a learning. to
not sleep deeply on top of the stress factor
because how many other professions, aside from
someone in a garrison somewhere that gets attacked,
goes from a dead sleep to operating at possibly
100 % within a few seconds. So again, what we
are asking our first responders to do is such
an anomaly, and yet we work them 16 hours more
than the person in the bank. It's so, so backwards.
So at least getting this extra 24 so that you
can recover from that arguably sleepless or very,
very sleep disturbed sleep. Even if you didn't
run a lot of calls in the night that night, you
know, that 72 hours and you're speaking about
observationally now and there's a Swedish study
that showed it, you know, from a data point of
view. Of course, it makes perfect sense because
you're never, ever going to get a truly good
night's sleep in a fire station. I know that.
so last night I was, I came off shift this morning.
Um, I will be honest. I didn't run a call all
night. We did not have a call all night long,
which is a rare for us. And I slept crappy, probably
woke up four times. Um, I think it, you know,
I've seen it myself. Um, and you know, we're
going, we're going this route next with our conversation,
but, um, looking into the mental health side
of things, I have, I was like, man, I, I read
the sleep study you were talking about, the Swedish
study. And I'm like, there really isn't much
out there that really gives us good data on it.
There's just, it's hard viewpoints. And I'm like,
you know, I'm going to make myself a spreadsheet.
So I made myself a spreadsheet and different,
you know, different data points of how many calls
did you have? What apparatus were you on? You
know, was it a work day or is it at home? how
many hours did you sleep? Was it broken? And
then at the same time, I'm like, man, I bet some
of my friends would do this with me that I work,
you know, no. So I'm like, I posted on Facebook.
I'm like, hey, anybody want to help me? I'm going
to do an amateur sleep study. If you have a watch
that can track your sleep, that's all I'm looking
for is a way to track it. And I'm still getting
sheets in, but there was six people total, if
you count myself, a 40 -hour shift, a 24 -72,
24 -48. a Cali swing. And then I actually have
a buddy that's at Charleston, South Carolina.
I've known him since I was a kid and they're
getting to do their own version of a different
shift. And so he's doing a couple months of it
for me. And then eventually I'll compute all
the data and figure out, is it just me? Which
I'm going to find out probably not, you know,
but look at how is it when we're coming off duty
versus how's our first night at home? Did we
get eight hours when we tried? Was it broken?
You know, is it because we're going on calls
in the middle of the night that we get, you know,
you get in tune that just going on calls all
the time, your body just gets used to it. Like
I said, I don't sleep good at the station because
I don't sleep heavy. And there's nights that
I'll wake up before the tone goes off because
the light comes on first. The red light comes
on in our bunk rooms. I'll wake up to the light
and then the tones go off. And why is that? It's
because I'm not sleeping heavy. my body senses
a change and it wakes up. So I think that having
that extra day, like I said, I start trending
upward with my sleep pattern, allows me to physically
and mentally recover before my next shift. And
yes, there's going to be days where maybe you
work a shift overnight. It is what it is. You
just have to have that ability to know that maybe
if you're going to work that overtime shift that
the next day you got to dedicate four or five
hours that next morning to taking a nap or getting
some extra sleep or some sort of self -care that
makes up a little bit for that day you missed.
And that definitely takes some commitment to
understanding that. Well, you mentioned the line
of duty death, and I'm not saying this is a factor
in it, but I mean, I'm sure that had an impact
in itself. I don't know if you want to elaborate
on that specifically, but also kind of walk me
through how you got to your lowest place. And
then what were the unique toolbox tools that
you accumulated yourself to get that post -traumatic
growth on the other side? So it wasn't actually
a line of duty death. It was a. a firefighter
that was in an automobile accident involving
a semi. But over my career, I've been on multiple
cardiac arrests like most of us have. And I did
notice that when especially my son was younger
is when them started hitting. So now I'm associating
them with my own kid that has nothing to do with
it. It's just. That's how you're associating
a small child with a small child. That's your
child. You know, and growing up not talking about
it, I would come home and be like, hey, I had
a bad shift today, you know, just so you know,
I had a bad shift last night. Never said a word
to anybody. I had another shift that kind of
led, started me down the bad trail that a close
friend of mine. child had a SIDS episode. And
I, at that time, lived close to the station.
I came in to help cover the station because they
were, everybody that was working was on the call.
And we did call back to keep some sort of minimum
standing or standard of people at the station
that'll keep the city covered, especially on
an incident like that, because we were a small
city. And I ended up going on the call as a medic
because I needed another paramedic. So now I'm
working my buddy's kid who I grew up with, or
he grew up with me knowing him, I should say.
So I've known this kid since birth. You know,
he's seven, eight months old, and I'm the one
doing CPR. So that kind of started, that went
from, okay, now I got some pediatric cardiac
arrest to now I'm working on a kid I know. Well,
my buddy had started to have mental health issues
of his own. And another time on the medic that's
on the medic unit. And he had a tent suicide
attempt. So I ended up taking off and spending
multiple hours with him at the hospital, talking
to him. And this went on. I mean, we, I worked
with him over a year trying to just keep him
going and he ended up ultimately taking his life.
So there's one more thing that added to that
giant, Pile, you know, and I don't know that
my ex -wife knew how many phone calls I took
and talked and the amount of time I spent. And
neither did my coworkers. Nobody knew any of
this stuff. We held it in. And then came Ben's
accident. I was the officer in charge of the
engine that day as a senior firefighter and show
up. We know it's an overturned semi. Get the
driver out. Crawl into the passenger seat. Reach
in. Passenger is deceased. Okay, nope. Something
not like the first time I've seen this before.
As we're standing there, we find out it was Ben.
That was a son of a retiree from the department,
or grandson of a retiree from the department.
Son of a, at the time, an auxiliary firefighter
or a, basically a... what you would consider
like a paid volunteer. Um, and Ben was also on
auxiliary at one point and I taught with him.
So we were pretty close friends and living with
meaning the thoughts of being the one that pronounced
him and not ever getting that. Um, and I want
to say this, not ever letting myself feel that
and be vulnerable enough to share that with somebody
and get the right. help to work through that
problem ultimately led to isolation um being
angry all the time eventually like i told you
the beginning you know i basically had an ultimatum
of get help and you know that led to a pdsd diagnosis
which during treatment led to anxiety depression
that popped up while going through emdr treatment
and i i mean i live with that still now but I
don't have the reoccurring symptoms, anxiety
from time to time. But, you know, I have the
ability now to go, hey, if I feel a pop -up,
I got to go talk to somebody and get this, whatever
causes figured out and worked out. And unfortunately,
when you work in a small town or a small city,
you're going to have them calls where you run
on people you know. And unfortunately for me,
two out of the three calls i was on duty or working
for and just never said anything to anybody so
where was the lowest place that you found yourself
you're getting this repeat hits i mean i can't
imagine this is the one thing i never had to
endure i never worked in the city that i lived
in i always you know a lot of times were like
70 miles away so i was very detached So, you
know, you're getting these multiple assaults
now emotionally, you know, where was the lowest
point? And then, you know, what was that kind
of corner for you? How were you able to start
climbing yourself out again? So, you know, I
thought I was working through stuff very well.
And then our divorce happened. It is what it
is. You know, I don't I don't hold anything against
her. We get along great now. And that's the plus
we're doing the best for our kids. But that was
kind of that last kind of breaking point. Never,
never went down the road to being suicidal, never
had any thoughts, but definitely got to a deep
depression and anxiety state where it was constantly
one after another. Talk about the fire flight
mechanism kicking in, you know, you know, at
that time I was 39, 39. Now I'm going to be a
single dad. I got younger kids. What am I going
to do? And all these thoughts start creeping
in. And it was just a very low point. Even though
I had a great support system, it was a very low
point, isolating point for me. And I started
to isolate more. Just kind of didn't go out with
people, didn't do things for myself. Very much
just rotate nothing but around my kids or I would
just kind of. stay inside, stay away from things,
never did things I liked. And it wasn't until
I finally made that decision when I seen the
hiring process, I've got to make something change
that I've got to do something different. I'm
not happy with my life where I'm at and what's
going on that, that, I mean, that really didn't
have a change. When I got the letter saying,
you know, We want to hire you. That was kind
of that change, that upswing that started. I
call it the Facebook notice about the hiring
process was the little voice from above saying,
hey, you better look into this. And then from
that point on, it's just slowly been an incline
instead of a decline. Nothing works fast. I got
hired in there. You know, kind of I got on a
shift with my current captain as a big tech rescue
guy, and I like that stuff. So we all meshed
really well together really quickly. And I was
like, man, I really, you know, I went through
all this. I started to get help again. And I
really want to be able to look at the peer support
side. Like it just something drove me to that.
So I went and got the training. And I was at
my probationary evaluation. And my chief asked
me, he goes, what drove you to peer support?
You know, I see you got really kind of passionate
for it. What drove you there? And I kind of just
gave him a glimpse. And he was like, holy cow,
I never knew that. And he's like, and that's
where Sable Warrior came in. You know, he's like,
have you ever heard of this? You know, if you
want information, reach out to these two guys,
one of which I knew for. you know for years i'm
talking a guy i knew for almost 20 years and
went through the program and when i got a guy
that's i look up to who's been a mentor now um
that has nothing but positive influence you know
for the last six months at this point going look
into this i i got a computer right away and looked
into it and i literally submitted application
that day and It was probably the coolest moment
after my rostering call when I got to come back
to work the next shift and walk in the chief's
office, tapped on the door and said, hey, chief,
got something to tell you. And he's like, what?
And I told him, he's like, that's awesome. And
that was really the upswinging point where that
kind of hill started to go really at that nice
steep incline in my life as far as positive outcomes.
And ever since then, it's just been. Living the
life that I never knew I could live with a different
mindset than I ever knew I could have. And finding
out that it wasn't just work, you know, some
stuff from childhood got brought back up. It
is what it is. I was, you know, for a while I
was bullied in school and never thought anything
of it. It just, it led to a lot of my actions,
the way I perceive myself or presented myself
or try to fit in. which ultimately led me down
a path that, you know, again, learning not to
talk to somebody about the bad stuff we see.
Well, that's a pride thing. I didn't need to
have pride. I need to look out for myself. And
I have, this is my story that I just shared is
something I will share with anybody that asks.
And I'm not, I'm not ashamed of it. I, it's something
I went through. I continue to do work every day.
It's not easy. I still have bad days, but I know
how to handle them and I have the resources to
handle them. I have the phone numbers to handle
them. And that's the key for me is knowing that
continuing a daily pattern, each day is the same
but different, that I have a routine every day,
that that helps promote positively every day.
And staying positive no matter what the day brings
you really just changes your whole outlook. on
everything you do you know from from hating going
to work to now i go in excited that's huge and
that for me was kind of the whole story of how
things you know went through i'm sure i've missed
a few events in there you know like i said my
my box was more than full it was overflowing
and I just finally had a breaking point of like,
I've got to do something different. That was
my breaking point. My body physically said, you've
got to do something different. So it took that
and kind of a little bit of courage to be like,
I'm leaving. I'm going to leave this place after
18 and a half years. On the back to probation.
What the heck? Why not? And it was the best decision
I've ever made. Well, a couple of things. Firstly.
And I've made this observation a lot recently.
I actually was talking to the Florida Professional
Firefighters at their conference. And I was saying,
if you are beating the chest about cancer prevention
and you're not talking about shifts and sleep
deprivation, then you're not taking cancer prevention
seriously. If you're beating your chest about
mental health and you're talking about it's what
we see and you're not talking about shifts and
sleep deprivation, then you really aren't. You're
not. You don't care because this is it's in the
room. It's not a elephant. It's a herd of elephants.
But you guys will not acknowledge it. You know,
sleep deprivation is a shift work. Excuse me.
The same thing is a known carcinogen. There is
a direct correlation between sleep deprivation
and all things mental ill health. And then also
go into the childhood trauma. Where's the conversation
that a lot of us, because we chose this profession,
usually are going to have some shit when we were
young. And we don't talk about it at the front
door. We just do some bullshit psych test that
actually, actually was never meant to be a standalone
test to determine if someone's right to be a
first responder. We check a box and we're like,
come on in. So, you know, if we, if listening
to your testimony, having the courage to leave
a department after 18 years. predominantly for
a better working environment i mean if again
that speaks volumes because it worked you know
along with other things save a warrior but it
worked the rest the recovery the time and then
you know i went through a divorce as well i think
we were literally the same age and then you have
that whole thing about oh my god i'm 37 38 and
now i'm dating and this is awful all the guys
you know the old guys that thought they were
Adonis that would talk about getting strange.
I'm like, no, this is horrible. I don't want
to be, I enjoyed being with, with someone before.
And, you know, ultimately I found that person
again, but, um, you know, all these elements
to show, you know, how powerful this conversation
is and then going to save a warrior, but there
are organizations. So when I talk about this
toolbox, you know, usually it's, it's counseling
and it's psych meds. And then maybe EMDR is in
that conversation. But no one's talking about
Save a Warrior or ayahuasca or equine therapy
or dive retreats. There's so many things there.
So the fact that you had the courage and the
humility to say, this isn't working. My kids
are the most important things to me, which is
exactly what happened to me. I'm going to go
to a place that is going to be a healing environment.
And then I'm also going to try. save a warrior
which i've seen and has amazing results but i
know it's going to be tough because i am going
to be taking deep dives into my own background
i think there's there's so much power in you
know all the things that you've said yeah um
so i went to save a warrior in august last year
um believe it or not on my birthday was my first
day at cohort and to this day on my wall to my
right um jake clark if you've had on the show
before I have a partial saying from that first
day. I've left some of the words out, but it
says it's not going to go your way. And I put
that up there for a reason, because nothing is
going to go your way 100 % of the time. You're
always going to have things that just don't go
how you want them to. And it's my daily reminder
when I wake up at home that, hey, this day might
not go the right way, but let's make the best
of it. Sable Warrior taught me a lot of things.
You know, when Dr. Clark founded it in 2012,
he was looking strictly at veterans. I mean,
you're talking an organization that was trying,
you know, as a veteran himself, trying to do
better for veterans coming out. And it ultimately
morphed from Malibu, California to Hillsborough,
Ohio now, which is two hours for me. And it encompasses,
you know, for the state of Ohio first responders,
it's 100 % free. At least from the fire side,
I know 100 % for sure because our state local
covers that. That's part of our dues. I didn't
know that. For mental health, the OAPFF, I think
it's $5 out of each month's dues go towards firefighter
health and safety. So I was able to go 100%.
It didn't cost a dime for me to go. And in 72
hours of hard work and a whole lot of... being
vulnerable in front of other people, you start
to heal. And when you come out from the time
you start to the, when you come out, you start
a 500 day program. And if you stick with it,
the results are amazing. I'm to the point now
where I'm actually starting to go back and help
others. Since we last talked on the phone, I've
been asked to do a classroom lead role. Because
before when you came out of cohort, you had travelers
and it was all by phone. Our cohort, and for
those of you that don't know what a cohort is,
our cohort is the group that we go through with
at Civil Warrior at that select time. So like
our class. So when we came out, we started using
Google Classroom. So now I have the ability to
be a lead in the classroom and then we'll actually
get to go back. So doing the work, traveling,
helping other. class cohorts that come out. And
then, you know, I will also be going back in
September as a shepherd to help another cohort
in person. And it's that work. I think that helps
my healing the most is by helping others and
meaning that we're going back for others. We're
not, I'm not there to be your rescuer. I'm there
to guide you. And then we call it wounded healing.
You know, we're wounded healers. We have our
own stuff. We work through it every day. Not
all days are great. But it gives us a sense of
purpose and drive that's not just that's something
that defines us. I know for me that I came out
on such an emotional high that I was like, man,
if this ends, I don't know what's going to happen.
Like, I don't know. You've let off so much crap
while you're there that I just I remember showing
up to my daughter's softball game and her just
seeing me smiling like. are you okay like yeah
i'm fine i was shaking i was so excited um and
that hadn't happened before i've never been you
know i was never that excited i was almost anxious
excited and yes not all days are good since then
you know you get that real quick it's a roller
coaster right we come out you're feeling really
great and eventually you're gonna start taxing
down then you work back up but what i things
i learned there you know were maybe just having
a routine We started off every day with routine
while we were there. It wasn't all the same,
but it was within the same time frame. And for
me, that is, as I get up every morning, first
thing I do is I make my bed. Why? Because Admiral
McRaven said, make your bed. Start the day off
positive. I love that book, and I quote that
to people all the time. It's like, read that
book, understand things. But that's of doing
one task to start my day off right. And as silly
as it sounds, I walk in the bathroom next and
I say, I love you in the mirror. And I walk back
in and I do my meditation. Three positive things
that start my day off. And after that, the day
can go haywire and it doesn't matter. You know,
and if you want a fourth positive is being home,
waking up my kids or seeing my kids wake up,
you know, that's a fourth positive. But it's
learning to take the negatives. But the grain
of salt or reaching out to somebody to talk to
about the bad days, we call it the thousand pound
weight. It's that phone. It's that, you know,
that half pound iPhone we carry or whatever it
might be just to pick up the phone and call somebody.
And I'm fortunate that I have three brothers
from my cohort within an hour and a half from
me. And we get together all the time. We talk
four or five times a week. And having that ability
to be able to share unshareable things or things
you wouldn't tell others, or maybe you wouldn't
tell, you know, say it was that bad call and
you had to see somebody that you can't get out
of your head. Maybe just sharing it is all I
need. Hey, I need you to listen for me. I got
to get this off my chest. You know, if you want
to help me dive into it, go ahead. And that's
an outlook I never had before Sable Warrior.
I would never have thought about it. And that
program for me has been huge. Seeing the change
in others where I'm at now with helping the program
as well as still continue to do the work. It's
pretty cool. I don't know how to explain it other
than there's a certain point you get when you
become what we call a traveler. that you get
to a point where now you get to see others complete
stuff and you just get this warm feeling like,
holy crap, I'm super excited. Like that was awesome.
And there's no other way to explain it. It's
like watching your kid be born. It's that same
kind of sense of feeling, that sense of completeness.
And it's a whole different mindset. You know,
I'm learning to confront things. I've learned
to handle situations differently. Um, it's still
a fight some days to keep, to keep the little
voices that say, protect yourself, protect yourself,
you know, potentially blowing up on somebody
versus take that deep breath, you know, think
about what you're going to say before you say
it, or do I even need to say anything right now?
And then either walking away or calmly handling
that situation. And that's kind of where I'm
at. And it's. I mean, it's just like it's a cool,
emotional roller coaster that keeps you smiling
every day. So this is where I think, you know,
the conversation needs to be now that the hope
of post -traumatic growth, the hope that you
can be an even better version of yourself. And
it was funny when you're talking about the quote
from from Saw years ago, there was a poster on
a wall in a CrossFit gym and it just said it
never gets easier. And the point was, is that
you get fitter. You get stronger, you get faster,
but you're still pushing. And I think it's the
same with this conversation. It's not that you're
going to come out the other end and all of a
sudden it's like a Disney film. There's still
going to be the great, great days and the shitty
days. But your ability to process them and cope
with them and be empathetic in all these other
areas are just going to be so much better when
you've done the work. So hearing testimonies
like yours and so many others. And again, these
people have gone through so many different modalities.
Everyone's story is different. But I've heard
a lot of amazing Savior Warrior success stories.
when people hear that they're like oh he's not
patrick's not saying oh i get up every day and
i'm still depressed but you know i'm getting
through it now i'm not killing myself you know
it's not it's like here's where i am now and
it's even better even with the department i move
for these hours and it's even better and this
is what i think people need to hear and this
is what i think would drive people whether it's
to go to some sort of mental health uh you know
modality and i know in your state the uh i think
it's wave neuro if i've got that that right the
tms you guys have free access to that as we do
here in florida um yeah so all those ones you
know are available but also have hope to believe
like well if we actually change our work schedule
That will also have a huge impact in everything
from our physical and mental health to our relationships
and our marriages even. So it's so, so great
to hear you kind of shouting from the rooftops
now. You mentioned Make Your Bed. I want to transition
to some closing questions so I can be mindful
of your time. Are there any other books that
you love to recommend? It can be related to our
discussion today or completely unrelated. So
probably one of my favorite books, and I got
to meet him in San Francisco finally, was The
Mission of Men and Me by Pete Blaber, who was
a colonel in the Special Forces. Learning that,
but for me, it's not just, it used to be the
mission of the fire service. Now it's, what's
my mission? You know, and the men, that goes
out the window. The men are my kids. And then
me. and then the fire department. So I add one
more line, but to me, that book was a great mindset
book. It's one of my favorites of all time. Yeah.
How you make your bed is up there. Let me look
at my bookshelf quick. It's your ship is another
good one. I get big and geeky into the leadership
books, but they're just because it's different
mindsets. That's a good one. to dive into if
you want to see how off thinking can change a
department um just your way of thinking um is
a good one um that's those are probably my top
three and the reason i say that is is normally
it takes me a month or two to read a book and
those each of those i read in either two days
or a day so um those were definitely my favorites
um as far as If anybody's interested in really
learning more about the mental health side of
it and they're good with science stuff, PTSD
for First Responders. It's a great book. It dives
into a lot of things and will give you a different
look at what causes it, why as human beings we
neurologically do certain things. So that's another
good one. That's my geeky side coming out. But
those are probably my top books. You don't know
this yet, but I just finished Kinder and I just
started One More Light. So, yes, there you go.
But that's one thing I've been trying to do more
is get back in the reading and that kind of adds
a little solace time too. Beautiful. Brilliant.
All right. Well, then what about films and or
documentaries? Um, films. So the all but famous
band of brothers, probably top, top film. Um,
do you want to talk about teamwork, camaraderie,
highs and lows and overcoming adversity by all
means? Um, all, I think all those, the Pacific
and, um, I forget what the new one is about the,
uh, pilots, but all those were good ones. All
right. Well, the next question, is there a person
that you recommend to come on this podcast as
a guest to speak to the first responders, military
and associated professions of the world? Yeah.
So my lead shepherd, who is Brad Savage, was
on kind of shared his story. He's a Canadian
mounted police officer. He'd be a great one to
come on. Kind of talks about the law enforcement
side as well as some of the struggles. And then
the other person I would throw in there and against
another LEO would be Larry Turner from Sable
Warrior. The dude has a powerful message and
I can't not throw him in that loop. Beautiful.
All right. We don't know your little ones wanting
the dad back. So let me just get to the last
couple. Next one. What do you do to decompress?
Anything from. Something as simple, like I said
before, meditation works really well. And then
I like backpacking. I like hiking, kayaking,
fishing, basically being outdoors. Anything outdoors
works really well for me. That's what my decompression
stuff is. Brilliant. And if people want to reach
out to you, learn more about you, where are the
best places online to do that? I'm on Facebook.
It's my name, Patrick Mullen. I do have an Instagram
account. I don't really utilize it much. You're
welcome to, you know, anything through James.
Sable Warrior as well. If anybody's interested
in that, it's my name, Patrick .Mullen at SableWarrior
.org is my email. So that's probably the best
way because that is an official email. But, yeah.
Brilliant. Those would be the best ways to get
a hold of me. Well, you've got a little one hanging
on your arm, so I'm going to let you go. I just
want to thank you so, so much, though, not only
for being generous with your time, but also for
being courageously vulnerable, because it is
stories like these, especially the post -traumatic
growth stories that are definitely going to resonate
with people listening. So I want to thank you
so, so much for coming on the Behind the Shield
podcast. Thank you, James. I appreciate it. I'm
glad I could be here.