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don't qualify, there is still the 10 % off using
the code BTN. Welcome to the Behind the Shield
podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing,
and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome
on the show former federal intelligence agent
and the founder of Jones & Associates, Hunter
Jones. Now, in this conversation, we discuss
a host of topics, from his journey into Air Force
intelligence, the intelligence challenges of
both Iraq and Afghanistan, domestic terrorism,
homeless veterans, drug prohibition, and so much
more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment,
go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
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over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in return
is that you help share these incredible men and
women's stories so I can get them to every single
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you Hunter,
Jones enjoy. Well, Hunter, I want to start by
saying two things. Firstly, thank you to our
mutual friend Jeff Engel for making the connection.
And second, I want to welcome you onto the Behind
the Shield podcast today. Great to be here. Thanks
so much. Thanks for having me. So where on planet
Earth are we finding you this afternoon? So I
live right outside of Philadelphia, about 20
miles west of the city, right by Valley Forge
Park, where George Washington and his cronies
hung out for a little bit. um i grew up in this
area um yeah it's funny i uh you'll laugh at
this but i i bought a house in the same neighborhood
i used to terrorize as a kid and you know it
was it was rough out of the gate james i'm not
gonna lie uh but i turned out okay right but
uh yeah i was that little kid that was terrorizing
this neighborhood it was so funny when i came
back all the old folks were like hey i remember
that kid and like oh my God, he's got two boys
too. Like there's for sale signs popping up left
and right, you know, as I was moving in. So,
but yeah, full circle, man. I mean, you know,
as soon as I retired and hung up my uniform,
it kind of got my life back. You know, as a military
member, you know, you're a government property.
So they go where you tell you. And once I retired,
got my life back. My wife actually got us up
here. And, you know, it's great to be back in
the neighborhood with my friends that are our
family, you know, closer to my brother, my sister
-in -law, my brother -in -law in Pittsburgh.
um you know my son goes to the university of
pittsburgh so relatively close to him and my
youngest son who just graduated um is heading
off to ruckers to play lacrosse there so really
excited to be close to him about an hour and
10 minutes up the road to go watch him play the
game that he loves so yeah we're really excited
beautiful what did your parents do as far as
careers So my dad was a business owner. Yeah,
he started his own business. He's basically a
food scientist. So think of like Carvel ice cream,
like he used to work for Carvel. There's a guy
with the company up in New York, Perry's Ice
Cream. He used to work for Perry's up there.
Tom Perry, his friend from college, Michigan
State, he owned Perry's Ice Cream. So he worked
there for a little bit. They were obviously business
partners. Tom Perry was actually the mayor for
a little bit up there in the Buffalo area. But
my dad was heavy in the bakery goods, custard
business. Still doing it today. My brother bought
the business from him a few years ago. maybe
less than 10 years ago and uh my brother still
keeps on retainer because he's he's the food
science geek right like my brother's the business
guy and my dad's the food science geek with the
organic chemistry background all that stuff so
he keeps him on retainer to keep him around to
develop formulas and all that good stuff but
um yeah so that's what my dad did and my mother
was Pretty much a full -time mom for the most
part, from what I recall growing up. Once my
brother and I got a little older, my brother's
three and a half years older than I am, she went
to work for a staffing agency to get part -time
workers at companies, so on and so forth. She
did that for quite some time, really enjoyed
it, and was there for a long time. Once you go
to a company that has great fabric from a culture
standpoint, you don't go anywhere else. Truly
love the owner of that company, LL Staffing Services,
whatever it's called. And she spent, you know,
pretty much her entire working career there until,
you know, actually after I left the nest to go
to the Naval Academy and was there for a little
bit. But, yeah, that's a little bit background
about my parents. And my dad was the entrepreneur
in the family. So, yep. did you ever have any
conversations with your dad about the dark side
of food science you know some of these uh practices
that are forging addiction through some of our
food products not not really um you know it's
just it's just interesting to talk to him about
um you know just the market in of itself you
know and just the evolution you know what you're
talking about of the food industry so on so forth
Um, but I haven't really delved into the dark
secrets, so to speak, but, um, you know, probably
not a great conversation to have because it's
probably pretty gross, but, uh, um, never, never,
never dove into that topic with him. What was
it about your upbringing that caused you to terrorize
your neighborhood? I think, um, I was just full
of piss and vinegar, man. I was one of those
kids that I would literally, again, this neighborhood
is awesome. Like it's, um, you know, back, you
know, Born in 1973, so I'm a Gen Xer guy, you
know. Just wouldn't, you know, leave the house
at 8 in the morning. Wouldn't come home until
the lights in the street neighborhood came on.
Or, you know, I hear my buddies, you know, ringing
the cowbells for them to come home for dinner.
And, you know, all my buddies would, you know,
be leaving. And I'd be like, okay, I guess it's
time to go, you know. So I was just that kid
that was always out outside, just, you know.
doing what boys do you know with other boys just
causing trouble mischief and you know not anything
crazy but you know just just hellions on wheels
that's what we did you know a couple broken bones
there you know some scraps you know some you
know some fights at the t -ball you know the
football field and all that good stuff you know
just being boys boys being boys right just um
yeah so it's just that kind of you know, had
that reputation of just, you know, kind of, you
know, causing chaos in the neighborhood. But
that's what boys do, right? Absolutely. You mentioned
a couple of sports. What kind of sports were
you playing through the school years? Yeah, so
I was a big jock growing up. My parents pretty
much threw everything in the kitchen sink at
me. And I kind of did the same thing to my kids.
I'm like, hey, you know, you'll figure it out,
you know. But I mean, you name it. I did it.
Basketball, baseball, swimming. um yeah obviously
later on my career in high school got into the
combat sports you know the contact sports the
football the wrestling the lacrosse um you know
really just i just i just love the competitive
nature of athletics you know a lot of who i am
is of my fabric is is from my my sports career
like you know and even i even talk about this
a lot you know with um people that come to me
for advice or mentorship, you know, going into
the military or what have you, or your leadership,
what have you like, um, a lot of my. you know,
when the shit hits the fan out there, like, and
it does in combat, you know, like I'm sure Jeff
talked about, you know, like it wasn't really
the leadership classes of the Naval Academy that
got me through those hard times. It was like
my, my, my athletic career, those, those, those,
the skills that I learned through, you know,
the mental toughness, the, the adversity, you
know, all that stuff, persistence, you know,
just work ethic, you know, that got me through
those tough times and even like dark times in
my life, you know? So. I really just I love and
I'm still involved in today. I still coach as
a volunteer up at the local high school for the
football team here. Really love it. It's even
though I hung up my uniform and. everything like
that from the military it's my opportunity to
serve my community and and you know mold future
leaders you know for you know tomorrow's generation
and teach these kids life lessons you know that'll
that'll serve them well later on in life so it's
just sports are just the breeding ground for
life lessons and and i try to you know, give
back in the volunteer coaching aspect, you know,
with Conestoga High School right up the street
here. So it's been awesome. And I just love athletics.
The Navy Football Brotherhood is truly a brotherhood.
You know, unfortunately, we just lost one of
our brothers, you know, a few days ago. And the
Navy Football Brotherhood, I have it here on
my shirt, but it's an actual 501c3 and the organization
exists to support. You know, the families that
are left behind when our brothers pass, what
have you, whether it be through combat or what
have you. This gentleman, he was a lot younger
than me. Didn't know him personally, but he was
on his daily jog and just had a heart attack
like unexpectedly. I mean, the shock to that
family, you know, wife and a couple of kids left
behind. I mean, I can't even imagine. But, you
know, we've rallied, you know, the Navy Football
Brotherhood communities rallied and, you know,
we spread out to our network to try to get some
support for that family. And that's that's what
we exist. Again, it's just the, you know, the
all the bottom line is the the life lessons that
come from athletics are just immense. And they've
done. great wonders for me in my life and in
my career your working career my military career
coaching career etc it's just it's foundation
for me absolutely it's interesting when you hear
people talking about sports teams you know if
you're in a certain fire academy together if
you're in a military group together there's that
forged camaraderie through shared suffering and
listening to how passionate you are talking about
and again even men that you haven't met it's
like my profession with the 343 that we lost
in new york if you weren't an fdmy firefighter
you probably didn't know any of them but you
feel it and you contrast that to this kind of
um you know political environment that we're
in there's this leaning into identity where there's
no skin in the game whatsoever. And I think this
is the problem that we're seeing with so much
divisiveness is if there was a shared suffering,
a true bond, I don't think we'd have this kind
of at each other's throats mentality that we
do at the moment with people identifying with
a group of people that technically they haven't
actually invested in. Correct. Yeah, 100 % agree.
I mean, it's profound, right? You know, like,
you get it, you know, you're in a very tight
knit group. And, you know, it's sad for me to
say this, but like, if you go back to post 9
-11, like how unified was this country at that
time? Yeah, like, to me personally, like, having
served in the military for, you know, 20 plus
years and and you know even still serving my
country you know as as a consultant you know
and um you know um a worker bee um you know contractor
would have you um you know that flag still means
something to us but it's it's sad for me to see
that you know how to your point how divisive
we are um and how separated we are we're not
unified anymore And it's sad to say, I think
it's going to take another 9 -11 type thing to
unite the country again. But yeah, it's sad to
see. So there's organizations, I'm sure you've
heard of like Travis Manion Foundation. They're
out there doing a lot of great work trying to
inculcate this culture of brotherhood and camaraderie
and character in our high schools and schools
and so on and so forth. It's a very noble effort.
You know, I think if we just come together as
a country, we'd be a lot better off. I mean,
I'm tired of all the conflict and almost like
rioting and so on. It just drives me insane.
I didn't serve to watch this stuff. So it's pretty
sad to your point. Yeah. Well, I mean, especially
I've made this point recently. If you had the
World War II generation come back in the time
machine. What would they think of this? They'd
shake their heads. I mean, they're rolling in
their graves. Like I said, it's profound and
it's unfortunate. But that's one of the reasons
I don't. doing podcasts like this. I've done
a couple before, but if my story can help people
in any way, I'm all for it. I'm happy to share
my story and answer your questions to do just
that. Again, I think teamwork makes the dream
work. If I can provide a little teamwork flair
to it and miracles happen when you come together,
hopefully that inspires somebody to do something
good today. you know, overcome this division
that we have within our country, then we're all
better for it, right? Absolutely. I'm working
on making the last book I wrote into a TV show,
and that is my absolute focus. And then to kind
of... use a tongue -in -cheek example the bill
and ted's excellent adventure film when they
create a song that brings unity into the world
it's kind of like that you know we use very devices
that divided people but what if we flip the script
what if we use that to put things out there that
get people look in the mirror and then start
healing themselves because the root of all this
trouble is mental health so Correct. 100%. Yep.
100%. We'll stay on the sports for one more moment.
I did, you know, team sports, field hockey, funny
enough, was the biggest one that I did in England,
but then I was a martial artist too. So you have
the team sports and you have the individual sports.
You talked about the team sports and the application
of, you know, life beyond the pitch. What about
the impact of the individual sports on your career?
Yeah. I mean, you're wrestling, right? I mean,
yeah, it's mano y mano, man. It's you and that
guy. There's no one to point the finger to, right?
And me being a heavyweight, because I was always
a big guy, you know, I was last to the ladder,
right? So, like, there were plenty of times my
coach would be like, all right, it doesn't take
a mathematician to figure this one out, you know?
Like, you know, all the weight on the shoulders,
all the weight of the match was on my shoulders.
So, yeah, I mean, it's just, it's, yeah, I mean.
that sport in and of itself was, and I didn't
start doing it until like my sophomore year in
high school. Um, it's a funny story behind that.
You know, again, I shocked my whole life, you
know, did sport X, Y, Z, and I played basketball
for the longest time. And it got to a point where
I just kind of fell out of love with the sport.
Um, so it was like my ninth grade year and, you
know, my parents raised me to never quit anything,
right? Like if you commit to something, you finish
it, finish. And so I had a conversation with
my parents. Uh, I think my brother was, Maybe
he was in college or – yeah, he might have been
in college by that point. But he's like – I told
my parents, I said, hey, I'm kind of falling
out of love with basketball. I'm not going to
play it next year. And my dad's like, okay, well,
what are you going to do? And I'm like, I'm just
going to live for football and lacrosse and work
out for football and lacrosse. He's like, not
an option. You will do something. So I had to
figure it out. So it's funny. I used to make
fun of the wrestler, but I went out and tried
it. And I'm like, this is pretty cool. You can
actually hurt people and get away with it. You
know, so I really enjoyed it. You know, again,
it's the work ethic, the drive, the persistence,
just the mental toughness, right? Like just to
get you through those tough times, like those
individual sports really. you know, shape you
as a person a hundred percent. Cause it's, there's
really, again, there's no one else to point at
it's you and you only, it's like, you can't blame
anything on anybody. So, um, yeah, it's, it's
definitely a game changer for sure. I, there's
other sports I like swimming, you know, you're
pretty individual. Yeah. You do the individual
medleys, the, you know, obviously the relays,
but if you're like the last one in the real,
my brother was a big swimmer. He, he swam at
Lehigh division one, division one, double a pretty
competitive. Um, so, um, Yeah, it's definitely,
you know, I call it an arrow in the quiver for
sure, playing those individual sports, you know,
for life, 100%. Yeah, absolutely. It's interesting
even from the coach's perspective, the psychologist's
perspective, if you look at multi -sport athletes,
you know, when we're young, you avoid burnout,
you avoid repetitive injuries, I mean, all these
things. But, you know, you can be on a team and
constantly blame other people. But as you know,
when you're on a mat, you can blame whoever you
want but you were the one that lost i think there's
a lot of uh humility forged in individual sports
yeah 100 100 like in and you know i would talk
about my brother for a second because he's kind
of a hero in my mind but um phenomenal swimmer
probably could have been in the Probably could
have gone to the Olympics, but he didn't want
to grow gills and all that stuff. He was phenomenal.
He was getting recruited heavily by all Division
I sports, but he kind of came to a sense. He's
like, hey, I still want to swim competitively,
but I want to have a life. I want to be able
to join a fraternity. I know from playing Division
I football, it's a job. And Division I anything
is a job. And I told my younger son that, what
to expect, so on and so forth, because he's going
to go play at Rutgers. So my brother, thankfully.
knew that he didn't want to do that he wanted
to have a life you know he still swam competitively
won double a lehigh um but long story short he
uh developed scoliosis kind of runs in our family
my grandmother had it um scoliosis is like the
curvature of your back um he got it so badly
he had a 64 degree curve in his back i mean if
you saw the x -ray james it was literally like
an s it was nasty um he had to have a surgery
his you know freshman year in college um Lost,
I can't, close to 100 pounds. I mean, literally,
it was like a beanpole. I mean, granted, swimmers
are usually very just fit athletes, right? You
know, the V -backs and everything. I mean, he
literally was like a beanpole. It was really
sad to see. Long story short, he developed a
really bad infection in his bone graft area in
his hip, and we were here at the hospital, and
they couldn't figure out. what bacteria it was,
what have you. Luckily, my grandfather was, he
used to work for Merck. He was a scientist, you
know, he helped them develop, you know, the cure
for whatever that bacteria was that was really
hurting my brother. Got him back on his, on his.
His feet, again, it was shady for a little bit.
We were really concerned. But when it came to
his back and everything like that, the doctors
were like, yeah, you're never going to swim again.
And, you know, it's going to take you forever
to get back in your feet. And just all the naysayers.
And my brother's like, dude, screw you. Watch
me. And he did. I mean, he went on in his career
at Lehigh, was, you know, captain, this and that.
Broke all sorts of records and, you know, just
a source of inspiration for me. Like, you know,
champions, right? You get knocked down, dude,
you get back up and you get into the ring, right?
Like, and I love proving people wrong. There's
just, I can, we'll probably get onto it at, you
know, my journey to the Naval Academy. But yeah,
my brother was just a good source of, it was
a success story for me to like, hey man, don't.
you know, avoid the naysayers and don't let anybody
tell you what you can or can't do. That's on
you, you know, a hundred percent. Just cool little
story. I'd share that real fast. Yeah, no, I'm
glad you did. Thank you. Yeah. Well, touching
on the Naval Academy then in high school, were
you dreaming of the military specifically, or
was that more of a sporting journey that took
you there? Both. So kind of a cool story. Um,
I actually knew I wanted to go to Naval Academy
when I was like 11, which is very unusual. Um,
a lot of people hit me up. Especially being a
coach, like, hey, can you talk to my son about
this and that? My story is very unique. It's
just very unique. But long story short, my mom's
cousin, we have this family that lives out in
California. We don't see them a lot, obviously,
just because of the distance between us. He graduated
there in 63, 65, I think. So he was a Naval Academy
graduate. Again, they live out in California.
You don't see them a lot. I was growing up. I
was about 11 years old. My dad went to Michigan
State University. Michigan State was playing
USC in the Rose Bowl. So my parents, we would
take a lot of trips. Give memories, right? You
can give tangible things to your kids, but my
parents were really big on. giving memories from
our brother and I, and we're very thankful for
that. So we went out for the Rose Bowl and had
a great time out there. And so we meet the family
out there. And, you know, again, I'm 11, 12,
and I kind of know what's going on. I'm not a
little kid anymore. And, you know, I'm at the
dinner table. I'm not wearing my Naval Academy
ring right now, but it's actually cracked. But
I noticed this ring that. you know, my mom's
cousin was wearing and, uh, I'm like, Hey, great.
What's, what's that ring? And he's like, Oh,
it's my, my Naval Academy ring. I was like, Hey,
can I see it? And I'm gives it to me. And I look
at it and I asked him a couple of questions about
it. You know, he's indulging my questions again.
I'm 11, 12 years old. And, um, he's like, you
know, when we get back to the house, I'll, I'll
show you, you know, something. And so we get
back to his house. He gives him like a little
coffee table book on the U S Naval Academy. I
thumbed through it and like for like an hour
and a half hour, I put it down. I'm like, that's
where I'm going to school. It was a done deal
for me. I was blown away by just the image, the
sense of camaraderie, service. It just kind of
runs in my blood. Red, white, and blue runs in
my veins. So at a very young age, I knew I was
hell or hell bent on going there. Fast forward
to my recruiting and all that stuff, I was a
really good wrestler, two -time state champ.
Um, so I was not only getting recruited for football,
but I was getting recruited for wrestling as
well. Um, but again, I knew I wanted to, where
I wanted to go. I was closing a lot of doors.
My dad was flipping out and I had to have one
of those discussions like, dude, it's not your
flipping life. Like, but the hell I know what
I'm doing. Um, and you know, I, I really leaned
in heavily and it's just, you know, this kind
of goes to like taking responsibility and ownership
over your own life and your own. Yo. chart in
in in life and uh you know i played for now i'm
prep here which is jock school you know pretty
good in football ice hockey lacrosse baseball
um and i played on the as a freshman i played
on the offensive side of the ball offensive line
and like sophomore year i knew i was gonna play
both sides of the ball um so i took it upon myself
to uh I scheduled a meeting with Gamp Pellegrini.
He was my head coach at the time, rest in peace.
He passed away a few years ago. And the assistant
head coach, Joe Sells. Coach Gamp was a prior
Marine. Once a Marine, always a Marine. And Joe
Sells was an Army guy. He was in Vietnam. So
I scheduled this meeting with him, and I basically
told him, I said, Coach, I want to play football
at the Naval Academy. You want me to eat lima
beans? I'll eat lima beans. Tell me what to do.
And the leadership in them just kind of kicked
in. They saw the intense desire for me based
on that meeting, me being proactive, having that
meeting with them, and they were like, hey, we're
going to take care of this guy. they go do their
thing. And next thing I know, these coaches from
Navy are showing up at my lacrosse games, my
wrestling matches and so on and so forth. You
know, again, multi -sport athlete, you know,
and just went full tilt into it. And like, again,
I closed a lot of doors, a lot of opportunities
with a lot of great universities, but I just
knew Navy was a place for me to go. And I only
applied to one other school, to be honest with
you. So it was like two schools, Navy and, you
know, I think it was Colgate was my safe school,
but that was it. And, you know, but I knew what
I wanted, went after it like a pit bull and did
certain things to kind of make that dream come
a reality. And, you know, just very thankful
to Coach Camp and Coach Sells for, you know,
being enablers along the way. I mean, you have,
you know, we all, you know, can make things happen
on our own, but you have to have support structure,
you know, behind you, you know, to help you.
And they were significant enablers in making
that dream. become a reality for me. And I'm
eternally grateful to both of them. And yeah,
it was just a, it's kind of a unique story. I
mean, I just, I knew at a young age, I want to
go there and just, you know, like I said, it
just closed a lot of doors, but I just, it all
worked out and they wanted me to wrestle there
too. And I told the rest of the coaches like,
yeah, I'm not doing two division one sports back
to back. That's crazy. I will, I will definitely
fail the hell out of that place. So just ended
up playing football there and no regrets, you
know, thoroughly loved it and got a ton of friends.
From there, both football players and non -football
players. But it was a unique story. A lot of
people don't realize they want to go to the caddies
until later in life. I just happened to know
11 and 12 because my mom's cousin went there.
It kind of sparked a fire. Did you have your
eyes set on the NFL after that? No. It's really
hard to do that. You've got to apply for a waiver
through the Secretary of the Navy to do that.
So it never really was a goal for me. I wanted
to serve that flag. I wanted to serve my country.
I'm very passionate about leadership. I was a
tri -captain my senior year in high school. Still
very passionate about leadership, obviously.
I still coach football and stuff like that. I've
coached throughout my entire life, pretty much,
helping my kids. But then it got to a point where
my kids, like 12 or 11, like 12 or 13, I was
like, hey, you're someone else's problem. I'm
not going to coach you anymore. But, yeah, I
mean, it's just leadership's a game changer,
right? Like, you know, it makes or breaks a company,
makes or breaks a country. Um, so on and so forth.
I mean, it's just, it's really important and
I'm real passionate about it. And, you know,
throughout my career, wherever I went, you know,
whether it was a specialty in charge in OSI or
leadership position, wherever, um, I took great,
um, uh, care of people under my charge, you know,
because I firmly believe, you know, as a leader,
um, you got to do little things, right? Like
bottom line, if you do those things, those little
things, right. And you take care of your people.
They'll charge a hill for you, hell or high water,
you know. Yeah, and I was like, I go back to
my retirement at the Naval Academy when I retired.
I was literally in tears because people flew
like across the country on their own dime to
come to my retirement ceremony. There was like
150, 170 people there. I mean, I was just blown
away. I had no idea that this many people were
going to come, and it wasn't really my superiors.
it was my, my troops that had worked for me that,
that I served as a leader, a servant leader,
um, that showed up in droves and that, that,
that to me, again, actions speak louder than
words, you know? So like their actions of coming
to my retirement ceremony and being there was,
was just, it was, um, it was humbling. I was,
I was, like I said, I was in tears and, uh, you
know, but it's intrinsically, I know I did. the
right thing by them as a leader. And I, I helped
set them up for success in their respective lives.
And, you know, I earned their respect. I mean,
they wouldn't have came there unless they didn't
respect me. Right. So I did something right along
the way when I was leading all these folks. So,
um, it was very, uh, very overwhelming for me
that day that I retired for sure. Yeah. I had
a police chief on the show probably two, three
years ago now, Christian, Kristen Zeman. Um,
and what caught my eye was her retirement. party
and it was an entire like parade not that she
had put on but all her departments showed up
to show their respect and i agree we all know
those guys as well that have the retirement party
and no one shows up because they were dicks right
right right don't worry about that my retirement
like um so i had one of my former troops like
basically run the whole entire thing because
i was where was i at the time i was down in florida
um yeah i was down in florida still and so i
He was up in the D .C. area, so I kind of made
him my point man for pulling everything together
and all that stuff and getting the cake and this
and that and all this stuff with Shadowbox. So
I just told him, I said, hey, just save all the
receipts, whatever. I'll set up with you afterwards.
He said, all right, no problem, boss. So we do
the retirement. I had no prepared speech. I just
kind of spoke from the heart at the end and just,
you know, really just laid it all out there.
Go to the reception, had a great time, and I
go up to him afterwards. I was like, hey, Vata,
what's the damage? He's like, boss, you're good
to go. I'm like, what do you mean? I was like,
it's like $2 ,000 of expenses. I'm not an idiot.
I did add it up, the dollars and cents. He's
like, boss, you're good. He's like, I took collections
from everybody. He's like, you're good. He's
like, in fact, we got some left over. Let's go
out, hit the town, and have a good time. That
was even humbling. I started to cry right then
and there, too. they wouldn't have done that
if they didn't now obviously respect me and think
highly of me. So that was another teary moment
that day for sure. Yeah. Why is it, do you think
that in first responder agencies and some first
responder agencies in military units in, as we
touched on, you know, states, even nations, that
humility and the servant leader doesn't seem
to be revered that, you know, ego narcissism
seems to almost be celebrated at the moment.
It's a good question because I think it's just,
you know, people like us are, we're not, you
know, we're humble. We're not chess beaters,
right? Like, so it's not like, look at me, you
know, you just silent warriors, I guess. You
know, I guess funny thing you touch on that because
after my retirement ceremony. My sister -in -law,
who I've known throughout my entire military
career, you know, comes up to me and she's bawling.
And she's like, Hunter, I had no idea you did
all that stuff. And I'm like, well, I don't just
be. I'm a humble guy. I'm an offensive lineman.
I get in the trench and I do work and I don't
look for credit. You know, like that's just what
I do, you know. But, yeah, the officiating presiding
officer, my. My retirement was actually still
a very good friend of mine. He's the U .S. Marshal
for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania. So
he was relatively close to me, but he was very
pivotal in getting me into OSI out of the Naval
Academy because coming out of the Naval Academy,
cross -commissioning into the Air Force in and
of itself is very – that's probably another story
we can touch on, but it's very hard to do. But
I did my thing, pit bull. did my due diligence,
you know, so on and so forth. And lo and behold,
he, he, he, he came to interview me for, to get
an OSI and, you know, he got me in and, and,
you know, he was obviously a mentor of mine throughout
my entire career. And, you know, it was, it was
great to have him be the presiding officer at
my retirement. And, you know, it was just a,
it was a really, really, really great day. You
know, that, that. I mean, I can go ahead and
talk about that story if you want. Yeah, let's
get the intelligence side. Yeah, so crossing
over to the Air Force from the Naval Academy.
In my case, I went to prep school for a year
up in Newport, Rhode Island. So the Navy looks
at it like, hey, we just put you through school
for five years. Why do you want to leave? Well,
you got to have a pretty compelling story to
do that to allow them to let you do it. My senior
year in high school, I did an internship at a
local police department. Again, I gravitated
to the teamwork aspect of the police department,
working together, homicide units, so on and so
forth. It was just really cool and type A type
people. So I kind of gravitated to that. So fast
forward, NCIS, I'm sure you know the TV show.
They obviously have an office on base there at
the Naval Academy. So I go there, again, proactively.
I'm a pit bull. I'm like, hey, this is what I
want to do. Knock on their door. I think it was
my junior year. Ended up talking to them for
three hours. They're like, hey, give us a call
when you get out. Love to have you join us. I'm
like, what do you mean when I get out of the
Navy? They're like, well, we can't bring you
straight in as an active duty military guy. We're
an all -civilian federal agency. I was like,
oh, my God. I was like, I just wasted three hours
of my time with you people. I was like, I don't
have a lot of time. It's the reason why I'm here.
Yeah, I'm a damn TV show. Yeah, yeah. I'm like,
man. And so I was like, all right, that's out.
Then I knew the Army had, you know, CID, Criminal
Investigations Division. My dad was Army. He's
like, you got Army, I'll break your legs. I was
like, hey, that's out, you know. And then I started
looking, you know, hey, this Air Force has to
have some sort of agency. And I stumbled across
OSI. And, you know, that's when I decided to,
you know, venture and go after the cross commissioning
in the Air Force. You know, so going into senior
year, they have. they gather all the classes
in the alumni hall. So it was a whole senior
class, you know, superintendent speaks, commandant
speaks. And they said, Hey, if anybody's interested
in transferring to the army or air force, come
down here, meet with the lieutenant colonels
from the army and air force down here. So I go
down to the basketball court and there's like
a hundred guys that want to like guys and gals
that want to, you know, transfer to the air force.
Like, and I'm like, oh my god and like it's it's
competitive and i'm like man there's no way i'm
gonna be able to compete with all these smart
people i wasn't lighting up the classroom right
like i was playing the division one sport was
a job in itself i mean i did okay two eight one
out of there i think but you know i wasn't like
lighting it up with a's or anything like that
so they have a meeting subsequent meeting lieutenant
colonel has a meeting says hey we're gonna meet
here um about I don't know, 20 people dropped
off. So he does this a couple times. So by the
third time, hey, let's just see who's really
passionate about this. We'll come to all these
meetings. It's kind of a natural weeding out
process. So it finally got to like the third
iteration of this. It slimmed down to about 60,
65 people. He goes, he gets up there and he's
like, all right, all you guys have any aspirations
of flying to the Air Force? He's like, you might
as well leave right now because it ain't happening.
And that cleared out about half the room. So
I was like 33, 35 people. And I looked around.
I'm like, all right, I might be able to compete
with these people. You know, because it's it's
it's very competitive. So go through it. You
know, they give you this paperwork. You got to
do all this stuff. And then your bottom line
is you've got to research the career fields that
you're interested in. So like my top three were
OSI, you know, security forces and then. um intelligence
in the air force so you know hop in the car you
know go to the pentagon you know you start networking
go to andrews knock on the gate hey i want to
do this you know can and i just do my thing just
being proactive a go -getter if i want to make
this happen i got to go make it happen so um
start doing some shadowing stuff this and that
meet some agents meet some cops meet some intel
people learn about the career fields and um so
35 of us ended up going to like interview slash
murder board i'll call it there was three out
of the four services represented so you had every
service there represented except the army so
there's like no bs in anybody there's lieutenant
colonels in there there's colonels there's majors
i mean you're not bs in anybody and uh you know
so they basically go down hey like your top three
hey osi tell me about osi you know what would
you be doing as an OSI and agent? What would
you be doing with security forces, Intel? Like
if you didn't know your stuff, you were out like,
okay, this guy's not serious or a gal is not
serious about it. And so, you know, you had to
do your due diligence and be able to answer those
types of questions. So out of the 35 people that
got interviewed, I think six of us got the thumbs
up for the. the, uh, the cross commission into
the air force. That means six people from the
air force Academy are going to the, to the Navy
after it's a one for one swap. Um, so everyone
gets their blood. Um, so there was a period of
time where, um, so fast forward a little bit,
um, service selection, you know, all everyone,
all my senior buddies are going to, it's called
service selection night. You go pick your ship
or Marine air or whatever you're going to be
doing seals, whatever. I knew I was going to
the air force at that point, but I had no idea
what. career field I was going into. I was in
this, this period of two, three months where
I had no idea I'm going to the air force, but
I have no idea what I'm going to be doing in
the air force. So, um, I was during that timeframe
and all my buddies are finding out what they're
going to do and this and that. And then later
on, I found out I was going to be going Intel
and I was a little bit bummed, but I was like,
okay, well you can go Intel, you can cross commission
OSI later. That's an option. I'll do that. And
then I, I thought about it again. This goes back
to my sports. you know background i'm like no
dude you want something go get it like you know
think of innovative ways to go make that happen
or you'll find out how to make it figure it the
fuck out right you know um so um i go to lieutenant
colonel and the air force i was like oh you know
i'm real stoked to be going intel like you know
and i'm planning to cross into osi but what can
i do to get an interview with with someone from
osi and he goes hunter the best thing i could
do is you'll recommend is is get a letter recommendation
from a an 06 or above you know which is a colonel
in the marine corps or captain in the navy or
general in the marine corps or admiral whatever
so pretty high up senior leader officers i was
like all right cool i can do that you know on
the football team we have officer reps we have
oh six for one for one for the air offense and
one for the defense um the defensive guy colonel
mike glenn i'll never forget him just You know,
phenomenal guy that set me up for success, too.
Just everybody loved this guy. Just a Marine.
Just a badass. Just was just a warrior and just
really got along with everybody on the team.
He was the defensive officer rep. I had a captain
for the I was an offensive guy, but like everybody
loved him. So I was like, I'm going to go schedule
a point with him. So I schedule a point with
him. He's kind of tracking the Air Force thing.
And he's like, so I go to his office and. And
he's like, Hunter, what can I do for you? I was
like, well, sir, he's like, he's like, oh, by
the way, he's like, congrats on the Air Force
thing. He's like, that's awesome. He's like,
you know, where is it? Where's that stand right
now? I was like, well, I just, I just found out
I was, I'm slated to go Intel. As you know, I
wanted to go. He's like, yeah, what happened
to the OSI thing? I was like, what? That's why
I'm here, actually, sir. I was like, you know,
would you mind, you know, Lieutenant Colonel,
I can't remember his name, but he's like, he
recommended, you know, getting a letter of recommendation.
He's like, all right, you need a letter of recommendation.
He's like, done. He's like, come back in two
days and, you know, I'll get it to you. I'm like,
and uh so i come back two days later and he hands
me this like manila folder and i pull out this
letter record i have it somewhere it's it's somewhere
in my house but i i literally closed it and i
like hand it back to him like sir i can't turn
this in in good conscience because i was like
levitating on water i'm like i'm not jesus you
know like and but he was doing me a complete
solid i'm like sir i can't do this and he's like
Turn it in. So we go back and forth. You know,
it's the time. He's like he's a colonel and he's
a Marine. I was like, he's going to stick a K
-bar in my neck and kill me. I was like, Roger
that, sir. I'll turn it in. And I was really
grateful for him for doing that. And, you know,
long and long story short, that letter went off
to the personnel center. And then lo and behold,
Colonel Eric Gardner, who's the U .S. Marshal
I was telling you about earlier. He shows up
at the Naval Academy to interview me. And he
was a captain at the time, like a fullback looking
type guy. And he sits down. You're not going
to believe the story. He sits down. He mentions
my school. He goes, Malvern Prep. And he started
shaking his head. He goes, I used to go to Marple
Newtown High School, which is right around the
corner from Malvern. And he goes, we used to
play you guys in football. He's like, you guys
used to kick our ass. And that's how he started
the interview. I immediately just kind of relaxed.
We shot the bull for about an hour plus. We were
actually in the lieutenant colonel's office and
he knocked on the door. Hey, you done? Yeah,
we are now. He gives me his card and says, hey,
I really like what I see in here. He's like,
I'll give you a call within a week or two and
I'll let you know. Love to get you on board.
I'm like, hey, great. Thanks for your time. And
I go back to my room and later that night. Or
a little bit after that, like a half hour, I
get back to my room. I think maybe it was a little
bit later at night. But whatever, same night,
I get a call through the wardroom. It's like,
hey, it's, you know, so I go get it. And it's
Colonel, you know, Captain Gartner at the time.
He's like, hey, I got you in. So just a real
cool story. Like, you know, like being a pit
bull, you know, figuring it out, you know, having
the drive and desire. Again, all those traits
that I learned from my athletic career, just
not quitting. Because I could have easily just
gone to Intel and done the cross. And I'm like,
no, I want something. I'm going to go make it
happen and put the work in, the hard work and
so on and so forth. So it's just a cool story.
And he was the guy that did my retirement ceremony.
So he and I have been friends for several years,
obviously, and just did a phenomenal job. And
we're still good friends. He's a political appointed
position for the U .S. Marshals right now. Just
a great human being, great American. Again, another
guy that kind of stuck his neck out for me and
made one of my dreams come true. So it was pretty
cool. Very cool. That actually reminds me, my
son was supposed to go to Utah State. He got
into Utah State out of high school, but he didn't
have any scholarships or anything. And when it
came to just figuring out the finances and everything,
we were kind of circling back around to Plan
A, which was community college for two years
and then go to college. Yep. And he came home
the other day and was like, I've got an interview
to be on the student council, and if I get it,
I get a full -ride scholarship at the community
college. And then he went to the interview yesterday
and came home, first told me he didn't get it,
and then told me he was joking and he did get
it. He pulled a fast one on you. He did, he did.
But this is the point. I mean, just to your point,
with this podcast, with so many things, why not?
Why not you? Like I always said when I was testing
for the fire service, I don't need all the spots.
I just need one of them. That's it. Everyone
else can have the rest. I don't think that that
kind of ethos that I would argue we were raised
with, you can be anything if you're in the right
household or the right community. I don't hear
it a lot these days. This is what this country
was founded on, land of opportunity. It's so
good to hear that because if you're dogmatic
enough, you can make almost anything happen.
100%. You know, even, you know, again, like,
and I think sharing these stories, like, you
know, it resonates with people. Like, and I always,
even as a coach, like, I'm like, look, dude,
like, you know, it's on you, man. Like, you know,
you can't make everything happen yourself, but
you can put things in place to find an enabler.
You know, you got to have supporters in your
corner, right? Like, you know, they're out there,
but it's on you to go find them and garner their
support. for your cause like you have to go do
that that's really important if you want your
dreams to come true you have to find two -year
leaders 100 like it's it's so obviously from
my stories i just told you like my my my mom's
cousin and then the coach gamp and coach sells
and then eric gardner like i mean man like they
were they believed in me and they they saw something
in me and they're like hey i'm gonna give this
guy a shot you know like and you but you have
to go make that happen. Like, it's just, it didn't
get handed to me on a silver platter. And like,
it was, I had to go shake the trees. I had to
go make mistakes. I had to, you know, whatever,
you know, knock on doors and, you know, find,
figure it out. You know, you just got to go figure
it out, but you got to have cheerleaders in your
corner. You can't, you can't be successful in
life without them. A hundred percent. And that's
what, that's again, that's why I coach, you know,
I get to teach these kids life lessons. mold
future leaders. I think you and I would agree
we need leadership more than ever in our country,
and there's something to be said for that. So
that's why I still, you know, still coach and
do it to this day. So if I can help these kids,
like I helped one of the kids last year, players,
he's at Norwich University. You know, it's kind
of like a private military college, like a Citadel,
whatever. You know, he's doing well up there.
I helped another player a couple years ago go
to the Naval Academy Prep School where I went.
It didn't work out for him. He left after a couple
weeks, but, you know. um you know he's still
doing well he's at Trinity College doing well
you know still keep in touch a few of my players
they're doing well and um I like good stuff but
you know you got to find people that'll that'll
support you for sure this is one thing I've heard
over and over again with a lot of people that
have ended up being successful and a lot of their
early lives were you know pretty bad poverty
addiction guinea gangs whatever it was and they
found those mentors, you know, and sometimes
accidentally, sometimes they were more, you know,
seeking it. But this is the solution to what
we've talked about earlier, which is, you know,
if you want to change the world, start a home.
And that means looking in the mirror and starting
to fix yourself. Then you, you know, then organically
through osmosis, it's your children, it's your
spouse. And then you step out your front door.
Yeah. OK, what can I do in my community now?
I'm a mechanic. I'm a teacher. I'm a martial
arts instructor. I'm, you know, whatever. How
can I positively positively impact men and women,
young men and women in my community? If we all
do that, you will change the world. You will
make America great, whatever your phrase that
you want to lean into. But if we're constantly
pointing at politicians of all people. to fix
our problems, it's going to just get worse and
worse. Yeah, it's crazy. You said something that
kind of resonated with me, like looking in the
mirror. I'm a big quote guy. I don't know if
you heard the quote, the man in the mirror or
the man in the glass. It's exactly what you're
talking about. Whenever I was in the leadership
position, or even today, before I go to bed at
night, you're looking at yourself in the mirror.
That's my gut check. quote unquote, gut check
moment of like, hey, did I do right by yourself?
Did I do right by me? Did I do right by my family?
Did I do right by the people under my charge?
You know, so on and so forth. Like, you know,
you've got to do that like every day. That's
important. You know, that mental gut check every
day. And then, you know, another one of my favorite
quotes is Ralph Waldo Emerson, the success quote.
You know, it's like, it's on my LinkedIn page,
but like, it's, you know, to your point, like
if you can. you know, leave the world a little
bit better by a garden patch or, you know, a
healthy child or whatever. It's just a, it's
a great quote that I try to live my life through.
Like both those quotes is it's just a, you know,
someone's already said it. Then why, why try
to restate it? Right. Just live, live through
those quotes, man. I'm just a big quote guy for
sure. And those are, those are two that resonate
with me, the man in the glass and the, one of
the man in the mirror and then a success by Emerson
for sure. A hundred percent. absolutely actually
i read that quote on your web page of your new
new business yep 100 yep yep what what year was
it that you went into osi um so it was right
after i graduated so um graduated in may of 1997
you know threw up my cap and gown you've seen
all the web pages or the photos and stuff and
then i went over and got cross -commissioned
a couple hours later into the air force and then
i had like two months of leave. And then I went
out to Travis Air Force Base in California for
my first duty station. And I was an agent trainee
at the time. I was awaiting to go to official
training as an agent. So I was there for a few
months until I went to training. And then I graduated
from the Basic Investigations Academy in December
of 1997, got my gun and my badge, and then went
back to travis air force base um and then you
know went went from there um yeah so 1997 in
december is when i got my badge and my gun yep
so describe the world and kind of the you know
the the scope of practice that you were operating
in pre -911 and then what changed when we had
that terrible attack yeah i mean i knew this
was going to come up um so um i went out to travis
which is a great office to learn from because
it was what we call it a composite detachment
so we had a lot of specialists there um so i
think polygraphers you know forensic scientists
um you know tech services um the guys that sweep
for bugs and and you know do the body wires all
that stuff so it was a really great opportunity
for me to you'll really be a sponge, you know,
and as a Lieutenant, not knowing anything, I
mean, there's just two types of leaders out there.
There's those leaders that get those second Lieutenant
bars and think they know everything. Like, that's
not me. I'm just like, I'm like, dude, I'm going
to learn as much as I can from my enlisted counterparts
as I can. I'm going to bring them dry and just
be a sponge. And, you know, then you start asking
all these questions and, you know, you, you,
you, you breed their trust because you're, you're
asking, you want to learn from them. Like you
ask any NCO out there. you know, they want officers,
young officers to come ask them questions. Like
they, they respect that, you know, cause Hey,
this kid wants to see again. Yeah. A hundred
percent. Like, I don't know, Jack squat, so I'm
going to pick your brain. And yeah. You know,
I, it's just one of those things I firmly believe.
I, I believe everybody brings something to the
table. Like I, even like when I was a. you know
freaking lieutenant colonel or running my unit
so i was like i would go up and talk to one stripers
and my people my people like hey what are you
doing i'm like hey i'm gonna go learn something
from that kid man like like you know everyone
brings something to the table so um yeah i just
uh You know, it started out Travis and it was
like, I started out as the, uh, the drug chief
out there really enjoyed that, you know, the
counter drug mission, um, doing a lot of buys,
staying up late, doing the bars thing, this and
that, and then working with our local counterparts
to, you know, bring down the suppliers that are
pilfering drugs to our active duty populations,
uh, on our base out there. And then I went over
to do the counterintelligence, uh, branch chief.
Cause the, um, the branch wasn't doing much out
there. And my Lieutenant Colonel boss pulled
me in. He's like, I need you to put a foot in
NASA, that branch back there. I was like, okay,
I can do that, you know? And then, uh, you know,
really enjoyed that. And then I went my next
tour out to, um, Germany, uh, to be a counter
espionage case officer, which was really cool.
Um, and then it wasn't until I got back from
that tour, um, that nine 11 hit. So, um, And
I was, I was at DIA at their, their counterterrorism,
your defense intelligence agency. So it's a combat
support agency to all the services, you know,
from an intelligence standpoint. So it's like
90 % analysts, right? Intel analysts, 10 % operators.
You've got some case officers there, what have
you. But majority of the outfits and providing
intelligence analysts to, you know, the military
services and stuff like that. So counterterrorism
unit, when I got there, so I got there. Came
back from Germany. I checked in there like literally
5 September of 2001. And our office was actually
in the Pentagon. Did a couple days there. And
then I went to a DIA orientation course across
the river where the DIA headquarters is at at
Bowling Air Force Base. And that's when we got
hit. Again, should have been in the building
that day. at the pentagon but i just happened
to be across the river for training um and the
world changed i mean uh i remember i'll never
forget it like my first thing was trying to get
a hold of my family to let them know i was okay
because they thought i was there at the building
so um but all the phone lines were shut down
i couldn't go anywhere i was locked on the base
obviously they closed the gates and i'm sitting
there on the the seawall at bowling and i'm watching
the pentagon before my eyes again three miles
away or no not even that far but i actually thought
about jumping in and swimming because i i was
a good swimmer still am a good swimmer i was
like i'm gonna go help um and uh just seething
in anger i'm like man these people are gonna
pay um and like it was it was very uh emotional
obviously um and i kind of got Again, I still
hadn't notified my family at this point. I'm
like, they think I'm in there. And I kind of
like, okay, shit, get your shit together. I got
to let my family know I'm okay. I flagged someone
down at the base, got to their home phones, able
to call my parents. My wife, well, she and I
weren't married at the time, but she was actually
at the embassy in Paris as an OS agent. So they're
doing their, obviously, hardening their security
there. So she was busy. But I was able to let
my parents know that I was okay. you know um
again that counterterrorism you know when i got
there was probably like 80 people um but fast
forward by the time i left it was like 320 people
so completely changed um you know and i was a
liaison officer there um as the senior counterterrorism
officers for osi signed there um and you know
those ladies on positions are one where you can
you can go and kind of hide and do nothing like
you can do that. Like it's your choice, but I'm
like, dude, I'm going to do something here. And
like, this is an awesome place to be. And again,
it's unfortunate that, you know, we had that,
you know, incident travesty, I should say. But
it was a really cool time to be there and I was
going to make the best of it and try to make
the biggest impact that I could. And one of the
things that I'm proud about is. If you can recall,
we had a lot of reservists that were called up
flooding to the unit to do reserve duty. One
of them happened to be local to where I grew
up here, Navy Intel guy, assistant U .S. attorney.
And being an OSI agent, I've worked with those
guys before. So he and I hit it off. And long
story short, as you know, the Patriot Act dropped.
And that was a great. you know tool in the toolkit
you know to combat terrorism and so on so forth
so when that dropped like again the bill is like
huge you know um i'm like hey like you're you're
you why don't you break this down in layman's
terms and i've got the badge and the gun i'll
open the doors to federal agencies you know dea
whatever marshals whatever and you know so we
can get some of this law enforcement data so
we can go combat terrorism on the far end instead
of fighting it here at home because that's what
the Patriot Act was for, is to break those stovepipes,
right? And, you know, that's what we did, you
know, like with the leadership there and then
him and I, we kind of worked as a team. know
to go visit you know these these federal law
enforcement agencies again just use my badge
and gun to get placement access and then he went
in there and broke the patriot act down and layman's
terms where investigators like me could completely
understand right because we're knuckle draggers
um and you know we made a lot of good stuff happen
um but uh yeah it was it was it was definitely
you know the focus there on ford was my majority
of my career was in the central command air responsibility
combating terrorism you know what it was deploying
for iraqi freedom prior to us you know um taking
the fight to iraq and and and then afghanistan
after that um you know a majority of my career
has been in the middle eastern the area of responsibility
um before before i retired so yeah i mean it
was um it'd be interesting to know like had that
you know, 9 -11 not happen, what it would have
been like. I mean, I don't know. It would have
been like, I don't know, like an extended Cold
War type era. You know, I don't know. But, you
know, definitely, you know, and existence of
terrorism is never going to go away. I mean,
there's always terrorists out there that are
going to want to do bad things to us. So you're
always going to need that counterterrorism mission.
There's always a need for that. You know, so
I don't think it's ever going to go away. But,
you know, we've got a lot of other. um national
security threats out there china russia iran
um you know so on so forth so north korea um
you know so you're going to do so much with the
budgets that you get and so on so forth i think
this administration's obviously we're tightening
up with the the homeland security part the border
security you know the uh the the influx of the
legals just was crazy how we even got to that
point is like beyond me like you know we we um
we don't know It's a security crisis on so many
ends. Just from a health standpoint, we have
no idea what diseases these people are bringing
in. They're not vetted. Are they terrorists?
I could go on and on about the security implications
and just opening up the border like we did. I
applaud this administration for making a priority
and fixing it because it needed to be done for
sure, 100%. Going back to the Patriot Act first.
Um, you know, you, you hear obviously the applications
to, to create more information so that you can
be proactive and try and stop some of these things
happening before they do. But at the same time,
there's other conversations about government
overreach with that. You are boots on the ground.
Talk to me about pros cons, you know, the spectrum
from the act specifically. Yeah. I mean, I, I,
I think it's just, um, to your point, like considering,
you know, We lost 3 ,000 people, you know, citizens.
And, you know, some people were, you know, in
the security, I'm a security subject matter expert.
So I think when the shit hits the fan, like the
general populace is more apt to look the other
way when it comes to, you know, your civil liberties,
what have you. And security becomes the paramount,
you know, priority, right? But as... Time wanes,
and trust me, there's still a lot of terrorist
attacks that are getting caught, but the general
public has no idea about, and there's obvious
reasons for that. I was privy to a lot of that
stuff, but bottom line is the general public
doesn't know about it, so they just go about
their daily day. But you can't – you've got to
give – the warriors at the tip of the spiel the
tools that they need to do their job you know
i think there's a there's to your point there's
a fine line between civil liberties and privacy
and so and so forth but i've always been at the
adage like you know dude if the cia or whatever
the nsa wants to bug my house go for it you're
wasting your freaking time like you lose you
know i'm just like but they i know that they
don't do that because they have bigger fish to
fry and and they're focused on other no kidding
threats You know, it's people that usually aren't
in the know that that causes uproar about the
privacy and security, this and that. So, yeah,
I mean, it's an interesting dynamic and you got
to walk a fine line. Right. But, you know, me
being in the trenches at the tip of spirit, knowing
what I know, I'm like, you know, you got to give
the guys in the trenches where I used to be like
the tools and the toolkit to get the job done,
to keep the nation safe and get the mission done.
you know, the more arrows in your quiver you
have to get your job done, then by all means,
you know, that's just kind of my, my, I'm not
saying like, you know, we should have widespread
surveillance. Of course you got to walk the fine
line, but you know, we can't, we can't handcuff
our, our, our operators. Like I, um, I'll give
you an example. Um, when I was at Sox at, so
I had retired along on my uniform at CENTCOM.
I went to Booz Allen Hamilton, which is a contract,
as you know. I went across the street to Special
Operations Command Central. We were the theater
Special Operations Command that was taking the
fight to ISIS in the Middle East at the time.
I was there 2015 to late 2018. It's almost four
years. We're taking the fight to ISIS. I don't
want to get political on this, but facts are
facts. When I retired, Bomb administration was
still in office. We were, when it comes to special
operations, you have advise, aid, and AAA, advise,
aid, and accompany. So those are the three things
that our special operators go forward and say,
like, help, you know, local forces, you know,
combat, you know, terrorism, whatever, like the
Peshmerga and stuff like that in the Middle East.
Um, so that a company out of the AAA advise aid
and company is a game changer. Like, so the Obama
administration, we were only aiding and advising,
you know, the, the operators that were taking
the fight, the ISIS at the tip of the spear,
like our, our host nation counterparts, et cetera,
et cetera, our indigenous forces in which we
were working with the, the, the crush ISIS. Um,
so we only had those two. We were bringing a
bear, the, the company, of course, and we weren't.
So when we. came to combat missions, our special
operators were not going shoulder to shoulder
with them to take the fight to ISIS. That's a
game changer, man. Fast forward, Trump comes
into the office. He basically took the handcuffs
off. He told the generals, like, you do what
you got to do. Like, so we got that accompany.
So we got all three of them now. So our operators
were able to go out there and, you know, firsthand,
you know, stand shoulder to shoulder with them
combating these terrorists. um and just from
a mentality standpoint like your counterparts
that that it brings a spirit of like camaraderie
and bravado and you're like dude i got the americans
with me like i'm i'm gonna go crush some stuff
you know and it was a complete game changer for
us and after that happened you know in addition
to some other policy limitations that we had
we were able to crush isis in like six months
like it was gone you know so just because of
a couple policy changes so you know um there's
just a difference in mentality when it comes
to the political atmosphere. But like my bottom
line is like, we can't limit the options and
the tools in the toolkit for our operators out
there, whether it be law enforcement, firefighters,
military, et cetera, et cetera. We need to give
them the tools of the training. to get the job
done. If we don't, we're handcuffing them. I
experienced that firsthand at SOX. I was like,
what are we doing? And then the administration
came in and we just decimated them in five, six
months. It was a game changer, 100%. You mentioned
deploying to Iraq before the actual invasion.
Now, retrospectively, a lot of veterans are looking
back and saying, well, some of the things that
we were told, the reasons that we went out. didn't
end up to be true so again i'm just james gearing
a firefighter sitting in front of a laptop right
now you're the expert talk to me about that whole
conversation yeah a lot of people have um yeah
so i i went out there to iud airbase that's the
airbase that was just taking some you know like
the rainings were trying to hit us iud in cutter
so that's where i went and that was you know
the biggest airfield in the aor to you know for
for us to you know the um the shock and awe campaign,
the bombing campaign for Iraqi freedom. So that's
where I was at. So I was there a couple months.
I got there in January, and then we hit Iraq
in March, and I was there until about July. But
I had to help a lot of guys go in and out of
Iraq and stuff like that. To answer your question,
in hindsight, we're terrible at this. We didn't
know the Berlin Wall was falling on Earth. falling
down until the bricks were hitting us in the
head. A lot of people talk about this. Iraq's
no different. At the time, I was all about it.
Again, me just being a football guy and a warrior,
I volunteered for both my combat deployments.
I'm like, put me in, coach. I didn't get told.
I volunteered for both. I was like, I want in.
Put me in. Knowing what I know now, as brutal
as Saddam Hussein was out there, He kept everyone
in check, man. So I don't think it was in our
best interest to take him out. It created a huge
power vacuum. I'm sure you've heard people tell
you the same thing. It birthed ISIS, right? Because
we took out Saddam Hussein, we created a terror
organization. It's crazy, but it's true. We created
this huge power vacuum there. And again, he was
brutal. strategically from the grand scheme of
things from a national strategic perspective
it's probably best we just didn't go in there
and do that um you know for that very reason
because we created a power back and created a
whole new ball of wax you know that we you know
we i lost friends in iraqi freedom yeah i lost
one of my troops literally one of my troops um
so um it's it's it's it's It's tough to talk
about because I've lost a lot of friends. Looking
back, I think we'd have been better off leaving
Saddam there. He was as brutal as he was, but
he kept everyone in check. Iran, he would have
kept them in check. Iran wouldn't be doing what
they're doing. If you look at Iran's, quote -unquote,
saber -rattling and just being aggressive. they
didn't really start doing that until you know
like they didn't want us there and they were
conducting a lot of attacks that killed my friends
and so on and so forth but yo post saddam being
gone like you know that we kind of created a
monster there too so um in hindsight we probably
shouldn't have gone into iraq but at the time
i didn't know any different you know i just wanted
to be in the fight you know so yeah yeah i remember
when it happened when 9 -11 happened i was in
japan working as a stuntman and we had a visual
i lived in a big apartment complex they built
for it was universal studios for the theme park
about 50 american 50 australian and then a couple
of us mutts from other parts of the world um
and so we had this big visual one of the girls
one of her family members managed to get out
the tower but she was actually in there um we
all watched as an entire you know apartment together
as the attacks happened and the towers fell.
But I remember saying at the vigil, I hope this
doesn't cost more lives than we've already lost.
And again, retrospectively growing up with the
IRA and the Falklands War and the British eye
that I had. And again, but then understanding
the... the kind of origin story of the IRA. These
are all things that if you go far enough back,
you're like, oh, well, I see how this started.
It was the British, it was the Americans, it
was the French, the Spanish, whoever. But the
reaction is, of course, you want revenge. You
want to fight back. Someone came to your house
and they put a brick through your window and
you want to go back over there. But what was,
I think, so... unfair is even the way it was
told to the american people is oh we're going
to iraq because of 9 11. the average person that
was the messaging and i was like wait a second
if we attack someone the person shouldn't be
going to canada to retaliate you know it's a
different complete different country so that's
what i thought was irresponsible it's like if
you want to go to Iraq that's fine but don't
lump it in with the 9 -11 response with all these
angry young men that want to get back at what
happened to our soil that needs to be compartmentalized
and say hey side quest we're also going to go
and finish what my dad started you know that's
a whole separate thing who's in for that I don't
think you would have had the same amount of support
for that particular one but absolutely the hunt
for bin Laden and You know, the response to 9
-11, you totally understand why people are chomping
at the bit because they were upset and angry.
100%. Yeah. And like, the bottom line is when
we, you know, what was it, 2001 and then 2003.
So two years that we're in, we're in Afghanistan,
you're making some significant headway. And then
like. Iraqi freedom kicks off. A lot of those
resources get shifted from Afghanistan to Iraq
and, you know, to to front or like, you know,
strategically, we should we should never been
putting ourselves in that that position. You
know, and like I said, like it's brutal. Saddam
was he was he kept everyone in check from a regional,
I guess. stability standpoint you know because
once you took them out it was just like a free
-for -all you know like same in Libya like Qaddafi
right we took Qaddafi out look at Libya power
vacuum complete vacuum like you know these dictators
are brutal but like when it comes to our national
security security interests like it might be
best to just you know leave them there because
you know you take them out we create these vacuums
and then we got these these terrorist groups
emerging and this and that and like it just becomes
too much, you know? So I'm not advocating for
Saddam or Gaddafi, but, you know, like, I think
you get the drift from a national, you have to,
and that's, that's, that's, there's national
security interests. Like you, when you make decisions
on a strategic level, you really have to, you
know, think long and hard on what are the national
security implications if we do this. And you
just got to think that through. And we don't
have a good track record. Like I said, the Berlin
Wall was falling, and we didn't know until the
bricks were hitting us on our head. We historically
have a bad track record of predicting what's
going to happen if we do this or predicting something.
So, yeah, it's crazy, crazy for sure. Well, what's
strange, I went on a cruise a little while ago
and we went to Labadee, which is this island
right off Haiti that Royal Caribbean, I think,
leases, owns, whatever the thing is. And there's
literally this Jurassic Park -sized fence and
the ship comedian referred to it as fake Haiti
because the actual Haitian island, obviously,
sadly, is devastated by violence and apparently
deforestation because they've... used everything
for fires and cooking and all the things. And
that's on my doorstep here in Florida. And then
you look at Mexico and the impact of drug prohibition
and the massive consumer that we are in the US
of the illicit drug trade and what that's done
to Colombia and El Salvador and Mexico. And those
are far more of a local threat. And I don't understand
why these resources aren't put into reverse engineering.
why, you know, we're creating that level of crime
on our doorstep rather than, as you said, you
know, thousands of miles away, destabilizing
a nation in the Middle East. Right. Right. 100%.
Yeah. Valid. Yep. So with Iraq, I've heard the
same exact thing that you have just kind of said
yourself as far as a lot of our warriors, they
were like, you know, including some of the Afghani
people out on the show. We were almost to the
point where we were going to overthrow the Taliban,
and then all the support went out to Iraq instead.
I've also heard, as far as the intelligence point
of view, that there was a woeful lack of understanding
of the tribalism and the cultures, and that put
a lot of our people on the back foot too. So
from an intelligence point of view, again, talk
to me about Afghanistan now. Yeah, so it's funny.
A lot of people asked me before I went out there,
like, hey, you know, should we be out there still?
And I'm like, look, I'm not saying anything until
I go out there for a year and do my thing. But
having been out there and, you know, the same
unit that Jeff was at, you know, I just happened,
I missed him by a couple weeks. But, you know,
I was the commander special agent in charge of
that unit out there, you know. And, you know,
again, it's kind of like, you know, what we did
out there. Basically kind of like taking a drug
network down, but with terrorists. We're building
target packages, working with Tier 1 operators,
soft guys to capture or kill these guys, insurgents,
terrorists. Our primary job was to keep the air
base green. Because if the planes stop flying,
bad stuff happens. So we have to keep the air,
we call it green, keeping the airfield green.
Got to keep it clean and going and keep those
planes flying. So that was our job at our unit
out there. um to mitigate um all the attacks
um whether outside ieds or mortars coming in
and basically just finding all those bad guys
that are doing all that stuff to keep the airfield
green so noble mission awesome you know dangerous
um had a lot of close calls out there um but
um you know we were we were providing the um,
informant network, you know, in conjunction with
all the other intelligence disciplines out there,
you know, you got your, um, all your intelligence,
um, you know, signals, intelligence, imagery,
this and that, you know, we're providing the
human intelligence aspect, you know, to that,
you know, um, intelligence fusion to, you know,
find, hey, insurgent terrorist is going to be.
here this date time location you know and then
we give that target package to a direct action
unit and they uh they go execute it um so we
we ran a lot of informants in our our our unit
um out in the local populace um you know and
i even as a commander i was running like very
high level guys you know um and i would say out
of the high very high level guys that i was you
know working with um And, you know, my people
that were working for me, they were working like
the other sources out there that, you know, at
the lower level, what have you. I was like working
more like the government level guys, you know,
obviously. But, yeah, to your point, it's just
there's very probably out of all the sources
we have in our books, maybe a couple of them
that that flag of Afghanistan meant something
to them. Other than that, it was all tribes,
family and money. that's it um you know so there's
really no sense of nationalism out there um so
trying to if you think about it from that just
just that stamp that same point alone like trying
to install like a democratic yo institution there
like it just wasn't gonna happen i was like trying
to fit a round peg in a square hole like this
wasn't gonna happen so why we even tried to do
it is like beyond me um you know so I left there
after my year. Again, gratifying job. You see
the fruits of your labor every day when you capture
a guy, you further exploit the network, go capture
some more dudes, you know, or, you know, suppress
an insider attack on the base, this and that.
Gratifying. You see the fruits of your labor
every day. And my team was absolutely phenomenal.
Certainly nothing I did. I just kind of led the
vision and, you know, took care of my guys and
they made it all happen. Like, you know. we got
all sorts of awards and did great stuff out there.
But when I got on the plane to come back and
I'm like, yeah, we shouldn't be here any longer.
You know, like how, why we've been here as long
as we have is, is beyond me. Like, you know,
fast forward to the withdrawal. Like that was
a complete debacle. Like I, I was infuriated
on how that all went down. A lot of my counterparts
who serve in Afghanistan with me, they share
the same sentiment. I'm sure you've talked to
several guys like Jeff. I've talked about it.
It's infuriating how it all went down. It shouldn't
have gone down the way it did. Granted, we need
to get the heck out of there, but there's a smart
way to do it. We did not do that. We did it the
wrong way. left a lot of people high and dry
um just it was all bad how we left there um needed
to be done but we needed to do it a much um more
methodical uh manner and it didn't go down the
way it should have um we had a plan in place
and it was just basically aborted and the administration
did their thing and it was a complete you know
disaster um but uh yeah that's kind of my thoughts
on afghanistan we never should have been there
as long as we were And once we obtained our objectives,
you know, I was actually there when we got Bin
Laden. Yeah, I mean, I didn't know about it.
Obviously, it was a very tight -knit group that
knew about it. But, yeah, I was in country. And,
you know, those guys were training at Jollibee.
And they were probably doing training at Bagram
where I was during the time frame. And then,
you know, but once we... achieved our objective
of removing the Taliban and, you know, getting
rid of a lot of terrorists out of there and getting
Osama bin Laden, we probably should have left.
But we stuck around and I don't really get, I
mean, we need to maintain some sort of presence
there, a limited presence, obviously in a counterterrorism
capacity. You know, but, you know, not as many
boots on the ground that we did for so long,
for sure. Yeah. I've listened to so many people.
I've had hundreds of veterans on here now from
that particular conflict. And the moral injury
that comes from either being told there were
WMDs and all these other things in Iraq or whether
it was Afghanistan and the way the withdrawal
happened and all the allies that we left behind
that were beheaded and the families murdered,
just brutal. So when you look at this generation
of warfighters that came home. You know, unlike
Vietnam, which, again, you talk about moral injury,
those poor men and women that were spat on and
pissed on and all these things when they come
back, compare that to World War Two, which even
if they didn't have the ticker tape parades,
a lot of them didn't. They just came back. They
weren't you know, they weren't they were still
honored for what they did. The U .S. was still
proud of them. And then you compare and contrast
Vietnam, which was the opposite. And then you
had this generation, which really they came home.
They were. You know, there was almost that virtue
signaling of, you know, us being proud. But the
reality was our actions didn't mirror that because
we allowed certain people in government positions
to ultimately betray our men and women in uniform
and why they were sent there. So I think it's
imperative that we take care of that generation
of people because we asked them to do one thing.
They lost people. They might have even ended
up, you know, killing innocent civilians in whatever
actions they were doing. They come home and then
we're like, oh, yeah. And by the way, actually,
we lied about X, Y and Z. Well, we shouldn't
have been there for as long as we were. So I
think this is an important conversation because
we can't roll time back, but we can damn well
learn from our mistakes and make sure it doesn't
happen in the next conflict. God forbid we have
another one. Yeah, correct. I mean, I, you know,
I got my left Afghanistan. I was like, yes. Country
doesn't deserve another drop of American blood.
Again, it goes back to the national security
interests. Our strategic leaders, presidential,
all the cabinet, they really need to think about
the national strategic implications of every
decision that they make and really think it out
because it's a fine line. You make the wrong
strategic decision. huge implications um for
sure um you know and i think you're you're i
think you're kind of dovetailing into like you
know now that you know how to how do we take
care of our our veterans and all that stuff like
post -war you know um so on and so forth and
um i think that's where you're going right is
that where you're heading well we can go there
i'm i've got another question but let's go there
now and i'll show you around yeah um you know
i think you know um I'm still involved with a
nonprofit called Veterans Villages. It's a nonprofit
to provide affordable, safe, and sustainable
housing for homeless veterans. There's 40 ,000
homeless veterans in our country right now, which
is unconscionable to me. It's an epidemic. I'll
call it an epidemic. And it's just crazy that
these people, you know, they write a blank check
to the U .S. government. And, you know, we have
these people out and homeless with no roof over
their head. It's just crazy to me. So Veterans
Villages and other organizations out there focus
a lot of efforts on trying to mitigate that crisis
epidemic. But my greater point here is I think.
You know, even transitioning out of the military
and the civilian sector for like a job. OK, like
my bottom line is, is like the military does
a great job of training us to go to combat, this
and that. You know, we'll have some hiccups here
and there, like the lack of armor and the deaths
from IEDs and stuff like that. You know, we'll
have some hiccups, you know, here and there.
But, you know, bottom line, do a great job to
train us to fight and win wars. On the flip side,
when we come back and transition into civilian
society, you know, we don't do too well, you
know, as a country. And it's kind of a three
-pronged, you know, type problem. Like the individual
veteran themselves has to better prepare themselves
to transition into civilian society. That's incumbent
upon me as a retired veteran or any transitioning
service member. But the federal government has
to do a better job. you know and the commercial
sector has to do a better job and i'm talking
specifically just transitioning itself so i don't
think enough emphasis is being placed in the
commercial market on like what traits that veterans
bring to the table in a corporate environment
immense benefits right you know just the intrinsics
like the hard work ethic the the camaraderie
the teamwork um communication skills you know
innovative thinking you know i can go on and
on about the intrinsic skills that we bring to
the table from from wearing the uniform um but
corporate america doesn't really do a good job
on educating themselves on that and like you
know really trying to think hey you know we could
bring this veteran in and you know make them
do this role for us and they'll excel, you know,
so on and so forth. But the federal government
has to do a better job as well. You know, we
just, we do, again, like my bottom line is we
do a great job in sending us out to foreign wars
and this and that, do our thing. But on the flip
side, when we were out of the service, it's just
kind of like, we don't do too well in taking
care of our veterans out there and we need to
do a better job. in the federal government, the
corporate America. And again, a lot of it's on
the veteran itself, but you know, that's just
one thing I wanted to throw out there. And that's,
that's why I'm involved in veterans villages
in the nonprofit world to help my veterans brothers
and sisters out there. Cause it's like 40 ,000
homeless veterans. It's just, it's atrocious.
It's crazy. A lot of people, when I say this
statistic, people aren't, people aren't tracking
that. They're like, wow, 40 ,000. That's just,
that's just, it's crazy. It's way too many. We
should have zero, right? Like none. Like that
should be the goal. Zero, you know? So, but you
know, here we are. So yeah. Anyway, I just, I
wanted to say that a little tidbit because I
thought that's where you're, you're heading with
the, you know, post -service type stuff. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. I've got it on the list. We
were definitely going to get there. So I'm glad
we did then. Another thing that's really, you
know, you have over a thousand conversations
with people. There's some truths really immerse,
you know, where these Venn diagram lines are
all crossing over and over and over again. And
one is when you transition out of the military
or you transition out of a first responder profession
and you go into a sales job or, you know, it
might be real estate or something, you know,
that is very money focused and that kind of arena.
I think we have a lot of our men and women that
just they don't feel fulfilled and they still
struggle. And I think we're missing the point
is that this person had the kindness and compassion
to want to make the world better, to want to
be the protector, to want to respond to someone's
worst day. And so it's more than just giving
them a job when they come out. It's carrying
on the mission. The mission isn't you are not
a Marine. You are not a firefighter. It's what
you did, even though the Marines don't like hearing
that. It's what we did. what you are is is a
courageous selfless human being right that wants
to make the world better so where i've heard
over and over again successful transition stories
is finding that you know work environment but
with an organization that there's an element
of it that's actually making the world better
so you feel like you're continuing your human
mission correct yeah 100 i would definitely agree
with that like uh um and that a lot of time in
corporate america like that's I miss that sense
of camaraderie. I miss OSI. I miss leading the
people I did in OSI. It's all about the people,
right? The people were phenomenal. I worked with
every culture, color, creed you could think of.
And to be in the military, it's a complete melting
pot. But the mission's the same. You're all focused
on the mission. You all work together. You get
the mission done, so on and so forth. Um, but,
um, yeah, you, you lose that when you, when you,
when you leave a service or, you know, first
responder community, um, so on and so forth.
Like I know a couple of my friends, um, you know,
that kind of went, went into your, your domain
of the fire department after, you know, leaving
the military and they love it. They absolutely
love it because you have that camaraderie, you
have that sense of brotherhood, sisterhood and
so on and so forth. Um, you know, but you don't
have a lot of that in corporate America. I, I,
I gravitate towards. If you look at since I've
retired, a lot of my post -retirement jobs have
been in government consulting or so on and so
forth because a lot of retired military folks
go work for those companies. So I still have
like -minded people there because I'm with kind
of my people because we all think alike. We know
how to get something done. There's intrinsic
skills that we all bring to the table. You want
to be with your tribe, right? Um, yeah, it's,
it's, uh, but it's, it's, it's easier said than
done, you know? So, um, you know, the, uh, the
homeless population veteran is definitely an
issue. The suicide's definitely an issue, you
know, 22 a day. It's actually like 30 something
a day actually is the real statistic, which is
crazy in and of itself as well. Um, unfortunately
I've, I had troops that worked for me. My number
one job in Afghanistan was to get everyone home
alive, you know, and I did, you know, during
my year career there. I achieved that goal. That
was my number one goal. But, you know, unfortunately,
a couple of my troops that work for me out there
have since committed suicide. You know, I feel
that on a personal level. That's tough. Like,
you know, like, you know, I talked to my deputy
about it. I'm like, hey, man, I was like, had
there's one of those either one of those guys
giving us a call, you and I would have been on
the next flight out there to be there for them.
He's like, yeah, he's like, boss, I hear you,
but you can't save everybody. I get it. But.
Um, you know, it's still, it's tough, tough pill
to swallow. Um, you know, and I, I, you know,
so that two, two guys took their own lives after
they got home safely. And then, you know, I lost,
I lost a troop in Iraq when I was the home station
commander in Utah. And that was, that was real
tough to deal with, you know, taking care of
the family and stuff like that. But, um, yeah,
I mean, it's, it's, we just need to do a better
job of, of, you know, taking care of our. veterans
are first responders out there on the, on the
flip side. And once they're done, you know, hanging
up their respective uniforms and so on and so
forth, because, you know, we have a lot of, you
know, invisible scars, you know, so we just need
to do a better job collectively, like the 30
plus a day. It's just, it's just crazy. And the
40 ,000 homeless, it's just, we just need to
do a better job collectively. Yeah, for sure.
What's been interesting over the almost nine
years now, the podcast, I saw the ripple effect
of drug prohibition on the streets as a firefighter
and a paramedic. I pulled the yellow sheets over
so many people. There was a gang violence attached
to it, the overdoses, the sex workers, the homelessness,
et cetera, et cetera. And so as I progressed
through my career, I'm like, this isn't working.
This drug prohibition thing that we have, this
war on drugs, air quotes, is a complete failure.
And it was funny because my mom had actually
moved to Portugal a while ago, about 22 years
ago. So when I got deeper into the podcast, she
said, well, hey, did you know what we did here
in Portugal? And about, I think it was about
20 years ago now. Yeah, it was right around 2000.
They had a massive opioid crisis because a lot
of the Portuguese had been sent to one of their
colonies in Africa for a war. become addicted
came back and it kind of spreads a very small
country and at that time they had the worst crisis
of anywhere certainly in europe i don't know
if it was the whole world but and it was really
interesting because going back to what we've
talked about a lot it was actually it's a very
truly democratic country where the people really
have a voice and they put it to the people look
we've tried this kind of you know what is an
american model the war on drugs model and it's
just not working so we are considering making
addicts medical patients instead of putting them
in prisons. So they decriminalize. So you can
go into a store and buy meth and crack and all
the things. But if you were caught with the user's
amount, you basically were given an interview
and it was an educational interview on all the
resources that are available. It took a huge
amount of money, which we didn't do in America,
and put it into drug counseling, mental health
counseling, job creation, housing. All the things
that a human being needs to get back on their
feet. And they reversed it in less than 10 years
and had the lowest addiction in Europe, if not
the world. So when we're bringing solutions to
problems, you know, to me, that's phenomenal.
Now you layer it. Early in the interview, I would
ask our war fighters about, you know, the drug
element in Afghanistan. And it was super tight
lipped. And I don't know what happened after
about three years. All of a sudden. I was hearing
stories of opium fields being told to be burnt,
not be burnt. And you start to then learn about
how much of the terrorism that was happening
against our troops was funded by the illicit
drug trade. Then you look at the cartels. Then
you look at the fact that a lot of our people
are coming home and MDMA and psilocybin and Ibogaine,
all these air quotes illegal, you know, class
A drugs are actually healing our first responders
and military. So James Gearing's opinion is.
that I feel like, you know, we have to have the
humility again to say the way we did it isn't
working. It's been since the 30s. So we're talking
80 plus years now. And maybe we have to be humble
enough and look at Portugal and Japan and some
of these other places that are doing similar
things and take the addict and put it in the
hands of the medical community. Because I would
venture to say that probably a lot of those 40
,000 veterans have an element of addiction as
well. And they're in the underworld, they're
in the shadows because of the shame and the guilt.
that our laws are put on. Huge monologue before
this question. Now, taking that all aside, what
is your perspective of, I'm talking about the
addict, not the smuggler, not the dealer, putting
them in the hands of the medical community rather
than the criminal community that we do at the
moment? Yeah, I mean, I think if you have a blend
of both, I'm big on personal accountability,
but again, I'm also... a firm believer of there's,
if there's a lesson to be learned out of someone's
situation, we ought to capitalize on that a hundred
percent. So to your point, I, you know, the bottom
line is from my perspective, if we don't, what
creates the, the, the illicit drug trading demand,
you know, if we attack the demand, we might have
a fighting chance, but if we're just not, if
we're not addressing the demand, then. we're
kind of peeing in a fan, you know, so you have,
you have to address the demand. If we don't address
that, we're just, we're turning a blind eye.
I mean, you could, you could, you could fight
drugs till the cows come home, you know, and,
and not have a real dent unless you attack the
demand. So I think there's definite merit in
a, in a model like that. Um, yeah, I appreciate
you sharing with me cause I wasn't, I wasn't
tracking that at all. Um, but I think there's
definitely merit in there. You, you have to,
you got to do both. Um, but you ever, again,
like to my earlier point, like everyone has a
something to bring to the table. Everyone has
a story to be told. Like if we don't try to extract
the lessons learned from a drug addict's life
and apply that to decrease the demand. then we're
silly. We need to be doing that 100%. I'm just
a firm believer in that if we don't attack the
demand, then what are we doing? You have to attack
that because as long as there's demand in this
country, it's going to continue to come in here.
And we can combat it until the calico mode, but
these cartels aren't stupid. They're very innovative.
They're very adaptable, just like what used to
be in the military, improvise, adapt, and overcome.
Those guys do the same thing. okay they're combating
drugs this way so we're going to go around this
way or like i you know i mean saw something like
you know like there's so much focus on the southern
border you just bring it up to the north and
this and that like there's i mean it's as long
as but as long as there's demand here it's gonna
it's gonna find its way in because it's very
profitable you know um it's like the human the
human traffic the you know epidemic as well i
mean that's surpassed the drug trade and it's
a billion dollar industry like there's you know
Until, same thing, like the drug trade, until
we shine the light on the demand for, you know,
I'm talking about children specifically, child
exploitation, you know, then we're, you know,
it's a long, long fight, man. It's sad. I mean,
the drug trafficking thing and the human trafficking
thing, the child exploitation thing, you know,
there's demands there. So we have to attack the
root cause. i .e demand for those things and
then you know and then combat it from both ends
essentially hopefully that makes sense yeah no
it does and that's what i talked about too i
mean you're cutting the head off the snake with
the demand we are four percent of the world's
population and we consume 75 of the world's opioids
and that arguably was primarily such a you know
magnified by purdue farmer So you're talking
about the cartels being clever. Well, they were
clever. They found all the areas where industry
had collapsed, you know, West Virginia and Ohio
and places like that. And they had drug reps
go to their doctors and they peddled their wares
and lied about the addiction element. And that
created the crisis. Then we have pill mills.
Then those are shut down. Now there's a void
and you've got people just now in withdrawal.
And then you have the cartels going, well, we're
going to go to those places now. Right. And so,
you know, when you reverse engineer. You know,
you're blaming this minor because they had a
back injury and then they got on legal pills.
And you know what I mean? It's not just some.
Yeah, I just made bad choices. You know, it's
far deeper than that. So and even with the money,
like you free up so many resources if you heal
your people. Same with the obesity crisis. If
we actually had a healthy population. you would
free up arguably trillions of dollars. If we
stopped going to wars that we didn't and be prepared
for the ones, God forbid, that we would have
to. So we still have an armed forces, but they're
not actually in combat and spending all that
money. There's even more money then. So it's
not about more money, it's efficiency and proactivity
and having the humility to look at Portugal.
you know, Norway's prison systems, Finland's
education system, the way Japan feeds their population
as far as, you know, the schooling and portion
sizes and just saying, you're doing that really
well. You know, I know we've said we're the greatest
country in the world, but actually there's some
areas we need to improve on. Can you show me
how to do this? And we'll show you how we do
this really well. Yeah. it goes back to what
we were talking about earlier being humble like
we're not you know we are the greatest country
on the on the on the planet but like dude we
you know we could still learn you know we could
learn from a small country like portugal like
you know hey they're doing something well hey
let me pick your brain let me let me let me soak
it up like a sponge like i was talking earlier
about my personal experience yeah 100 something
we learned there we ought to capitalize on it
sure absolutely yeah well we've talked about
you know the middle east and the border What
about domestic terrorism? I've had some interesting
people on the show talking about white supremacy
and some of the other kind of groups that also
potentially could be a danger to our civilians.
Yeah, I mean, it's funny to bring this up. My
thesis for my first master's degree was actually
on this. It was basically educating the general
public on terrorist indicators. Um, obviously
terrorists need to do certain things in order
to carry out attack, like surveillance, solicitation,
probing security, all that stuff. You know, so
my, my thesis was really focused on, on, on educating
the general public who was going to do it, this
and that. Um, but, um, yeah, it's, um, the domestic
terrorism piece, like, you know, I think it's,
it's one of those things that, um, we need to
keep, uh, tab on you know for sure um and i think
you know like the white supremacist thing like
the you know i'm just a back to basics guy like
these these gangs and the cults and all that
stuff that that surface that um you know conventionally
carry out domestic terrorist attacks whatever
it all boils down to a sense of belonging right
like and i'm a back to basics guy like if if
things aren't right in the home then you're gonna
have you know people wander off and and join
these groups and you know unfortunately maybe
carry out a terrorist attack or a mass shooting
attack like the mass shooting thing that that's
another epidemic in this country my god like
how many of those like happen a year so on so
forth how many people we like that this wasn't
a thing when i was growing up you know um but
when you peel the young him back in the aftermath
like There's indicators there. We need to learn
from those indicators. A lot of times, these
people don't have a good home life. They don't
have a father figure there. Parents are absent.
I'm a big firm believer in basic roots of family
life. You've got to have a good environment.
You're a product of your environment. If your
environment is shitty, you're going to do shitty
stuff. You know, so, you know, that just goes
from the foundational principles of like, you
know, being good people out there. And it goes
back to what we were talking about in the beginning,
like, you know, just being being good people,
honest and making a positive impact in your community
every day. Like we've strayed away from that
from the family standpoint. Families are so jacked
up out there that we have kids that are joining
these these cults or gangs that are doing these.
you know, mass shootings or their mental health
is, is off the chart and they go shoot up a school
or something like it's a, it's a travesty. Like
we shouldn't, we shouldn't even be here. Like,
it's just a, it's just a lack of parenting in
my opinion. Like, um, it's all, it all boils
down to the home and your environment. Like,
so it's, it's a shame that we even have like
these whites, your point, white supremacist groups,
these gangs out there doing that stuff. So, um,
how do we combat it? We go back to basics. We
provide good, you know, environments for our
children, you know, and we bring them up in good,
you know, foundational families, God, country,
apple pie, and making your community better,
et cetera, et cetera. That's how we combat it.
Just a back to basics approach. But, you know,
it's just, it's unfortunate that we had this
stuff. Like, again, the mass shooting thing to
me is like, that's a whole other topic. Like,
it's just crazy. The amount of, you know, I...
I'm teaching my kids how to apply tourniquets.
Like that's sad. It's a reality. You, you get
it because where you work and I get it, but like,
you know, that's sad to me. I'm teaching my kid
how to apply tourniquets and I'm giving them
to him. It's crazy. It's crazy. We should, we
shouldn't be here. And I, to me, I just, I'm
a back to basics guy and we just need to get
back to family roots and, you know, you know,
making your community better and, you know, realizing
you have potential as an individual to make.
your community better, the country better, your
whatever, um, better. So, um, I don't know. I
kind of got off on a tangent there, but like
the, you know, I, I, those things all fuel, you
know, gangs, domestic terrorist groups, you know,
cause these kids just out there, they, they sense
they have that lack of belonging, love, whatever
they feel neglected. So that's what these cults
do. That's what these terrorist groups, they,
they prey on. kids like that and they'll hey
we'll give you a family and like oh you got a
initiation you got to go put a round in someone's
head oh you don't even know the person like what
like that's crazy a little bit like that's what
that's what happens this day and age it's just
it's nuts you know so yeah i don't know if that
really answers your question or not but yeah
no it does it does um i had a guy on the show
and he was a trauma surgeon If I remember if
I'm getting that right. And it was pre 9 -11
and the military was sending their trauma doctors
to some of our major cities like Chicago and
some of those places, Detroit, so that they could
get experience on trauma medicines with shabbings,
stabbings and shootings. So think about that.
That's a reflection of our country that our military
doctors are going to go to our cities to get
training because there's so much violent crime.
Yeah, it's crazy. It's absolutely insane. Like
my, I think I was telling my older sons, like
pre -med and, and at one point he wanted to be
a neurosurgeon. And so like through my network,
I hooked them up with a friend of mine and he
was a trauma neurosurgeon. So he, he was shadowed
him a couple of times and like, he would see
like gunshot wounds, this and that. It's just
like, it's, it's, it's, it's insane. It's crazy.
It's crazy. But yeah, I think this is why. The
conversation needs to be on again on the mental
health, but also this is what my book is going
to be or the TV show my book is going to be about
is the generational trauma. Because if you look
at where we are now, we're really only two generations
from the World War II generation. We told them,
wow, you're the greatest generation. You just
came back, rolled up your sleeves and got back
to work. We didn't give them the ability to actually
start. dealing with their own shit which we know
they had right you know what i mean and you hear
about granddad on so many of these interviews
and he wasn't okay there was alcoholism there
was domestic violence there was you know all
kinds of other stuff so then you've started to
fragment that that household and then of course
we've got socioeconomic areas that weren't exactly
set up for success in certain you know racial
groups or you know again west virginia whatever
it is areas that weren't given the same opportunity
right And then you have, you know, all the American
industry sent overseas. So now there's an employment
void. So you see this trauma. You see these dominoes
falling. And it all circles back to us looking
in the mirror and saying, what can I do for me
first? Then for my wife, you know, husband, children,
whatever it is. And then again, I'm going to
go out into that community like my friend Chris
Hickman has done here with the Firefighter Mentorship
Program. Because those kids that grew up without
one parent, without either parents, whatever
the thing is, where they just were born into
a disadvantage, I'm going to be that person.
I'm going to be the one that helps them turn
the corner. I'm going to train them to be the
best fucking firefighter that we've ever had
in the city of Ocala or wherever it is. And so
I think that's how we turn it around because
some families, we can't bring them back together.
They're already fragmented. So how can the rest
of us that are doing okay step in and be that
kind of cribbing for that young man or that young
woman to actually make the right choice themselves?
Right, right. I'm just going to dovetail off
what you're saying here. I firmly believe that
everyone should serve something greater than
themselves at some point in their life. You know,
we all know that there's European countries,
you know, like the Israelis, for instance, you
have to serve X amount of years in the IDF and
in other countries do the same. Like I remember
playing baseball. They came from Sweden, you
know, and they lived here, but they went and
did their obligation to Sweden, you know, and
served in the military for a couple of years.
Like I firmly believe that, you know, before
young. adults go out into adulthood they need
like whether it's from like out of college or
out of high school whatever we can figure it
out or do a combination thereof but like some
people everyone needs to go out and serve you
know their community their country i don't know
it could be the peace corps i don't care whatever
serve a cause greater than yourself at some point
for like a year or something like that we i think
we need to do that like because it's you're talking
about trying to change a culture Like, and you
can't, it's a paradigm shift and that takes a
long time, you know, but I think that's one thing
that we could do at, again, at a strategic level,
you know, to help us turn the tide, to get back
to those, back to basics, roots, you know, to
curb a lot of stuff in our society today. Like,
and I firmly believe, like, if you have an opportunity
to go do that and serve others, it just opens
eyes. Like, I'll give you an example. For instance,
I... Through my high school that I graduated
from, and both my boys graduated from, it's a
private high school up the street called Malvern
Preparatory School, Augustinian Catholic School.
They're very big on Christian service, you know,
serving community, so on and so forth. So they
prep. these kids to go out and serve the respective
communities. It's kind of like the Augustinian
mantra is to serve others. So one of the things
that they do at the school is have these community
service trips to impoverished areas throughout
the world, like Dominican Republic, Costa Rica.
Long story short, I went as a chaperone since
I'm an alum in March to Costa Rica with 24. Young
boys, all juniors, you know, from the school
for the most part to Costa Rica. And, you know,
we did a lot of community service in an impoverished
area in Costa Rica. And talk about the change
that those kids had within a week. Mind -blowing.
I mean, totally different kids when they came
back home. And, you know, we talked a lot about
this stuff. There's other two alumni chaperones,
and then there's a company they hired to facilitate
it. And they had local guys that were kind of
our guides and this and that. But, you know,
to see the change in these young men, it's an
all -boys Catholic school, between when they
got there and they came back, just by doing a
week of community service in an impoverished
area was monumental. And I saw it firsthand.
Just little things like that. We just, as a country,
I think we need to do like more of that stuff.
Like that's a private school. Like it's not cheap.
So like, you know, all parents, they're making
that investment in their children. But like,
if you don't go to a private school that has
a program like that, you're not going to get
that. Like, so my point is on a national grant
scale, we need to do something to bring opportunities
to our youth to provide, you know, the serving.
something better in yourself type opportunities
so to speak bottom line yeah yeah no i agree
completely and this is what's so sad like there's
not that voice of you know to kids you can be
anything you know which i think was really one
of the american fundamental things you know this
was a land of opportunity and then again the
disconnect between a lot of the the holy books
that people read and the kindness and compassion
and empathy that these prophets had and how we're
acting today and the message that's out there.
And I think there is a huge narcissistic element,
and it is about me, me, me. And there's no I
in the USA. There's an us. You know what I mean?
That's very cheesy, but it's true. This is a
community element, so we need to put that back.
When I was little and growing up in England,
there was a couple of TV shows. One of them was
called Blue Peter. And the whole show would be,
you know, there'd be some interesting things
like a kid on a BMX or whatever, but there would
always be what is going on in the world and how
can we help? And they would organize these like
nationwide, you know, bake sales or, you know,
whatever it was. And we would raise, you know,
school kids, we would raise money and it would
go to Ethiopia during the famine or, you know,
whatever the thing was. So not only we'd be educated
on some of the things and how lucky you were
and what was going on, but also to be part of
that solution. And I think we need to absolutely
refine that because again, going back to World
War II, that's what our grandparents did. Whether
they picked up arms or whether they worked in
the factories, they were part of this movement
that saved millions of people. And here we are
now and all of a sudden it's about me. And so
I couldn't agree more. Sebastian Junger talked
about this. National service doesn't have to
necessarily be military. You can have other groups,
you know, whether you're working on the environmental
side or assisting first responders or whatever
it is. But giving back to your country, I think
it would absolutely just smite this kind of narcissism
that we have and this selfishness and this, you
know, worship of the monopoly. That's just kind
of this cancer that's going around at the moment.
Yeah. I mean, God, go work at a nonprofit for
a year or something, whatever. I mean, there's.
there's a million ways to make this happen. Um,
you know, we just, we just gotta strategically,
you gotta make it a priority somehow. Like, you
know, until we do that, I think, you know, we're,
you know, the me, me, me thing is just, it's
not a, it's a way to go. Not, not the way to
go in my opinion, but, um, you know, um, there's
just so much to, to learn out there. And, and,
um, you know, you, you, you, when you serve others,
um, You just there's a there's a sense of gratification,
you know, and not only that, but you're. you
know, you're making an impact. It's like you're
throwing a pond, a little pebble in a pond. You're
having that ripple effect, right? Like if you
go in a, in a, in a published community and you
help them out, like maybe one of those kids that
you helped out at some point is going to, you
know, later, you'll go do the same thing. Like,
you know, so on and so forth. So there's, there's,
there's the ripple in the pond effect. But yeah,
it's, I think we just can just do a better job
of that. Like there's gotta be some sort of.
It'd be great if like some sort of mandate came
out, like, Hey, you gotta, you gotta do something,
figure it out, but you gotta start something,
you know, more than yourself. And then, you know,
that'd be great. I'd love it. I'd love it. Get
that back to basics. Yeah. To the table for sure.
Absolutely. Yeah. All right. Well, I want to
throw some closing questions at you, but just
one more area before we do talk to me about the
consulting firm that you're setting up now. Yeah.
So Jones and associates consulting and concierge
services just started in January. um obviously
me being a retired federal agent working in the
national security sector law enforcement sector
my entire career i've got a lot of subject matter
expertise in those domains like the mass shooting
you know thing for instance um one of my referral
partners is a company called zero wise they have
some wicked tech ai technology that is installed
within existing cct cameras and it's basically
a gun identification technology. So if you brandish
a weapon, it's not foolproof, right? It could
be a BB gun or like say a Nerf gun. It's going
to, the technology is going to hit, but they've
got guys like me, retired law enforcement, military
that know weapons, et cetera, et cetera, are
able to say, hey, that's a false positive or
hey, that's a cop somewhere. Like it's legit,
whatever. But bottom line, the whole concept
is to you know, increase the response time for
first responders to, you know, take out an active
shooter. You know, it's, you know, it's, you
know, so the consulting business, again, it's,
I've got a lot of referral partnerships there
to help companies, you know, get some sales for
their respective companies. I've got a couple
of consulting science clients, you know, that
I help them with, you know, in those arenas,
the national security arena, intelligence community
arena, law enforcement arena. You know, my wife's
also a retired federal agent, so she's now teaching
French and Spanish. She's got that language skill
that I never had. But, you know, the whole concept
is kind of like, you know, as we as we get older
and we're done our full time jobs, you know,
we can focus our time and energy into the consulting
business, build it out. There's like a concierge
part to it as well, whether it's, you know, taking
care of, you know. errands for like an elderly
couple in the area or you know helping out with
certain things for a family you know in the area
you know we can do that as well but yeah it's
really heavy on the consulting there's a little
concierge part to it to help with, um, some,
you know, concierge services, like executive
protections, one, two, I mean, I used to do that
mission, you know, so, um, it would be, you know,
executive protection for people like, you know,
ever since that CEO of the insurance company
got taken out, there's a huge push for that,
obviously, you know, um, provide security for,
you know, corporate executives and things like
that. Um, but, uh, yeah, so it's, um, It's still
embryonic at this point, but, you know, crawl,
walk, run. You know, got a few clients now, like
majority referral partners that I'm helping out,
you know, some consulting. But, yeah, we're going
to build this out as we go. And you'll look forward
to it. You'll work with my wife on it. And, you
know, we'll continue pressing forward with it
for sure. And where can people find that online?
Yeah, so I've got a website up, jonesconsultantservices
.com. And I've got that website up and running.
Check it out. I'm still making some changes here
and there, but people can check that out. And
that can be reached at the email hunter at jonesconsultantservices
.com as well. Beautiful. Well, the first of the
closing questions, is there a book or are there
books that you love to recommend? It can be related
to our discussion today or completely unrelated.
That's a great question. Yeah, I've got, I've,
I always believe like readings, you know, having
a thirst for knowledge is a good thing. You know,
reading, you know, wisdom is, you know, knowledge
is wisdom and wisdom is power, right? uh there's
a lot to be learned out there i'm a i'm a big
reader of uh autobiographies and things like
that you know self -improvement books i'm not
really into the fiction stuff because like yeah
okay it's cool like you can let your imagination
roam and stuff like that but like unless there's
like things to like learn or like uh take away
from a book like i just you know i've got you
know i'd rather pour my time into like you know
autobiographies and self -improvement books and
stuff like that so to that point um The best
team, again, being a team guy, being a football
guy, the best team book I ever read was Hard
Hat 21, a phenomenal book about the Cornell lacrosse
team. Long story short, the guy lost his life
playing lacrosse for Cornell, but this young
individual, he was a team guy, and the book's
really all about him. you know, how he lived
his life. And, you know, it's just a great story.
If you look at the Cornell lacrosse team, they
still have, like, the helmet. It's a worker's
helmet. It has a 21 on it. And, you know, basically
what they do is they pass the helmet from, I
think it's week to week or maybe month. I mean,
it's probably week to week on, like, the hardest
working team player. week of practice or whatever.
So they pass this hat along amongst the team,
which I think is really cool, like symbolism,
right? But it's a great book, probably the best
team book I've ever read in my life. The Gift
of Fear is a good book by Gavin DeBecker. From
a security standpoint, it just basically talks
about the... The intrinsic skill or capability
that you have, like the little hair on the back
of your neck, like if it stands up, like don't
double guess it. Like you're walking down the
street and you see a couple guys off in the distance
and that little, like turn around. Like don't,
you know, it's things like that. It's just making
yourself more aware of your surroundings and
really to trust your. intrinsic inborn ability
to sense fear and tap into it to keep you safe
in a world of chaos right um that's that's a
great book as well i mean there's a lot of good
uh autobiographies out there i i like the um
extreme ownership's a great book by uh jocko
and leaf laven uh leaf babin out there um those
are just a few off the top of my head i mean
i i can get you more but those are those are
three that kind of Make Your Bed in the Morning,
Admiral McRaven, I think he's got a book out
about that. McChrystal's books are really good,
Stanley McChrystal's books. Those are all great
things and great things to pass on for sure,
to learn a lot from those people because they've
done tremendous things out there and got an opportunity
to learn. General Mattis' books, great. Schwarzkopf's
books, really good. Yeah, there's a ton of them
out there. Brilliant. What about films and documentaries?
I mean, I'm a football guy. I mean, I like Remember
the Titans, you know? We all love that movie.
I mean, just I can't imagine. Growing up in that
era, like, again, especially being a military
guy, working with every creed you could color,
whatever. I mean, it was kind of melting pot.
Like, I can't imagine that we were so just out
of touch back then. But, you know, just a phenomenal
story, true story. And it revolved around football.
Like, I'm a football guy, so I loved it. But,
like, the impact that one guy could have on a
community. you know greater country is it's just
you know it's it's a testament to that that guy
um and just what he did um that's a great movie
um let's see um any given sunday uh al pacino
and if you ever see that movie like there's there's
a half yeah there's that one point in the locker
room where he basically like was very vulnerable
and he's talking about The inches, clawing for
your teammate. I mean, I get chills being a football
guy. I get chills when I watch that scene. It's
just the most awesome locker room scene I've
ever seen. It's great. Great movie. Documentaries.
Yeah, I mean, I like the organized crime stuff.
I mean, for entertainment, like Gangs of London
is pretty cool. Mobland is pretty cool. I think
you were talking earlier about the OxyContin
epidemic, the painkiller. You've obviously seen
that one. That was pretty good. You'll learn
a little bit there. Anytime I can get an opportunity
to watch something that's entertaining and learn
some stuff, it's all good stuff. Absolutely.
There's another one that Michael Keaton was in,
and I'm blanking on the name now, but it was
also about the opioid crisis. I would argue it
was even... even better than painkiller all right
i'll have to check that out yeah look it up i
don't know why i think it was on hulu if i got
that right but i've watched the whole thing twice
already it was so good the acting was phenomenal
but it really kind of like touches on what we
talked about the origin stories of you know certain
communities and how they were preyed upon and
you know how they lied and they got you know
the people that are proving in the fda were former
purdue you know or became purdue employees i
mean just the whole corruption element and then
the doctors themselves getting addicted yeah
i mean this all it was so so well done yeah i
wish i could remember now but uh if you look
at that one episode that one episode in painkiller
where they you know like that guy the fda wouldn't
approve it and then they they closed the door
at the hotel and the next thing you know like
the next day he approved like dude what the hell
happened in that room right you know it's like
it's crazy to your point the corruption like
what he and he ended up working for pardew farmer
afterwards like that's crazy it's nuts yeah that
was exactly that was it dope sick was what it's
called just looks it up okay so that's that's
the name amazing absolutely amazing dope sick
dope stare okay gotcha i'll check it out yeah
cool awesome awesome good stuff all right well
the next question is there a person that you'd
recommend to come on this podcast to speak to
the first responders military and associated
professions of the world um yeah i mean i've
got yeah i mean quite quite a few people i can
recommend to you um Jared Bonville is a guy I
worked with at OSI. Good, good cat. Just talked
to him a little bit ago. And I think he would
be cool to talk to about the, and I think this
is important too. I mean, we touched on it, but
we didn't really talk about it. The in depth,
but the, you know, when it comes to helping.
veterans overcome trauma and you know they they
do like these trips to mexico they do the psychedelics
and like i think to go to meyer was one of them
if i'm not mistaken i think he talked about on
joe rogan's podcast i mean i i'm pretty sure
it was him but like i'm i'm of the mindset like
hey if that stuff works and it helps fix our
veterans we ought to we ought to be focusing
on that and and you know making efforts to bring
those you know rehab capabilities to bear to
patch up our service guys. If it works, hey,
why not exploit it? We need to do more of that.
I think we're coming around a little bit on that
topic. I'm not well involved in it, but Jared's
a guy who is a lot more well -versed in that
stuff than me. I think he was key in getting
some legislation passed in Kentucky. I'll link
you up with him. Really good dude. you know,
operator type like me, just a really great guy.
But I think from that, that, that, that whole
topic, he would be a wealth of information to
talk to about. And then, you know, there's, there's
some others, but let me, let me think on, on
some more, you know, Reed Keller is a guy who
worked for me in Afghanistan and, and, and in
Utah, phenomenal guy. My deputy, when I was out
at Afghanistan, Greg Gow, great guy. You know,
Dave Morgenstern, he was my operations officer
out in Afghanistan. Greg and Dave were two guys
that I handpicked, right? Like when I got the
nod, because again, I volunteered for my deployments,
my combat deployments. When I got the nod to
go take the commander slash special aid in charge
position, you know, as a military commander,
you don't have like a ton of leeway on building
your team, like in handpicking folks, but like.
Since he since Dave was my operations officer
and Greg was going to be my deputy as my senior
noncommissioned officer in charge, I did have
a little play there. So I, you know, the first
call I made after I got the nod to go take that
job was was to Greg, you know, because he and
I, you know, formed a mutual respect for each
other. Basically, when I when I lost my troop
in Iraq, I think I was I told you a little bit
about it, but I was the home station commander
in Utah. Again, I'm very passionate about leadership.
I went over and above to take care of that family
left behind. Greg saw that firsthand. And he
was actually with my troop that got killed in
Kirkuk, actually. So he and I never talked about
it specifically, but it's a touchy subject. But
just through that mutual respect and the aftermath
of me as a leader going above and beyond to take
care of that family that was left behind. And
Ryan Balmer, he's a guy who was killed in action
in Iraq. phenomenal human being. He was one of
like, I think, 10. So he had all these siblings
and so on and so forth. So big family to take
care of. But, you know, through that mutual respect,
he was the first call I made. I was like, yo,
you want to go serve for me in a year in Afghanistan?
He goes, go work for you for a year? He's like,
hell yeah, boss. And then Dave Morgenstern was
another guy who I've worked with in Utah a little
bit. He was one of my reservists out there when
I was especially in charge out there. Phenomenal
dude. And, you know, I knew I could. he was a
reservist at the time I was in an OSI you can't
like like Jeff's a reservist now like you can't
get tasks to deploy but you can volunteer to
deploy so I called Dave and I was like hey you
want to come out and be my opso he's like yo
be your opso for six months he's like hell yeah
you know so I had an opportunity to build build
somewhat of a you know my team out there and
then the rest you know was on us to you know
build that you know family you know camaraderie
you know uh esprit de corps um culture out there
but um those are other guys as well but i i think
i can think of some more and you know point you
to some others as well those are some off the
top of my head yeah that would be amazing it's
interesting even with you know as you mentioned
the the plant medicines that are helping people
not just the iboga and you know ayahuasca and
some of those but also cbd yep and the resistance
that they've had. And then you circle around
again to these drug companies. Well, of course
they don't want those other ones to come in because
if they, for example, a boga seems to just crush
addiction. It's incredible the stories I've heard,
alcoholism, opioid addiction, et cetera. Well,
then how am I going to sell all my pills if people
are getting better? And that's sadly a big kind
of spotlight on the things that are broken. Other
countries, Norway and the Scandinavian countries,
Japan. They save a huge amount of money because
their people are healthy. Correct. You know,
our health care system is set up to have sick
people to profit from. That's not, you know,
that's a conspiracy theory. That's the economics
of our system. Yeah. You know, so there's no
money in dead people. So let's try and keep them
alive. But there's no money in healthy people.
Or as one of my guests corrected me, there is
money in healthy people. But now you're talking
about the preventative medicine side and nutrition
and exercise and all those things, which is great.
Make money in there. But yeah, when we're seeing
resistance to these plant medicines that are
legitimately helping and they're not the magic
bullet, there's other things you need to do as
well. But there's so much resistance on the political
level. We as a nation have to ask ourselves,
well, why? And how do we change it? 100%. It
all boils down to the money dollar. I mean, you
probably know this. You look at TV, like 75 %
of commercials are what? Pharma. crazy. Like
to your point, it's like, it's a cash cow. Like,
and you know, when you think about anything,
like everything, a lot of things boil down to
the mighty dollar, like, you know, Congress,
Senate, like they've got huge investments in
pharma. So of course they want the pharma companies
to do well. Like we can go on and on about the
insider trading stuff. Like it happens. It's
crazy, totally illegal for you and I to do it,
but they do it like, you know, so yeah, it all
boils down to the mighty dollar. Like it's, it's
like 75 % of the commercials are pharma. What?
it's it's nuts it's nuts so yes yep and we're
one of only two countries on the planet that
allows drug commercials on television the other
one which is crazy to me because i think of it
what used to be a very kind of healthy uh country
is um new zealand wow okay yeah which really
surprised me too but yeah the rest of the world
doesn't allow it that is surprising i didn't
i wasn't tracking i i i worked a lot with the
uh the kiwi guys and new zealand guys when i
was in combat great great uh great counterparts
for sure yeah yeah absolutely yeah crazy all
right well then the last question before we can
underline where we can find you online what do
you do to decompress um i really like enjoying
time with my family um you know i work out you
know obviously lift still try to stay somewhat
fit i mean i'm a i'm a naturally big guy six
five like 300 plus pounds i mean you know it's
so as as you know you're a little bit younger
than me but like at our age it's so easy to put
weight on and it's so hard to take off so like
trying to maintain you know some semblance of
health is is is important right to your point
like you know taking care of yourself naturally
so like you know whether it's walking my dogs
or getting a good workout in you know swim whatever
you know i enjoy that type of stuff and i really
i'm an extrovert by trade you know like which
you know being a federal agent made it was a
natural fit for me because I just, I love being
around people. Like, you know, and I, if I could
work and be around people and then like solve
crime and, or, you know, prevent, you know, people
getting killed in combat, like, Hey, it's great.
You know? So I really just love being around
people. You know, love spending time with my
friends, my family, you know, family's everything
to me. You know, and my close friends that are
family are everything, everything to me as well.
That's, that's what I like to do to decompress.
And I, you know, the, you know, serving stuff
other than me, like, you know, coaching. I still
love that. Obviously I'm still doing that. The
nonprofit space still, you know, we're veterans
villages looking to, we're actually in the process
of transitioning over to another, another person
that's going to take it on. I'll still stay on
as like a, you know, an advisor or whatever,
if the new ownership, you know, wants us, but
if not, then. um i'll go elsewhere and you know
veterans causes are are very near and dear to
my heart so anywhere i can help in that domain
um i've helped i've i've volunteered my time
with like travis manning a couple times um you
know it's veterans veterans causes are near and
dear to my heart yep sure i still need to get
ryan manning on the show one day she's great
yeah you've never you've never gotten her on
not yet no i've even she was at um the go rock
had a thing called the Sandlot games a couple
of years and she was there. They did the Mannion
wad is one of the events there, but, uh, yeah,
it's just, I keep meaning to, I just haven't
yet. Gotcha. I mean, I, I, um, I know her, she
knows me. Um, not really. I mean, she's a busy
person wherever I see her, like in the public,
like, you know, she's, she's always like a guest
speaker somewhere or so on and so forth. But
like, um, there's a guy, local guy, he, he's
more, way more involved in Travis Manion foundation
than, than I am. But, um, Joey Fay is his name.
He's a Navy football guy, too. So we obviously
have that brotherhood. I could link you up with
him. He would be a great person to talk to as
well. Now I'm thinking about it. Very much like
me, you know, Naval Academy grad, just good dude.
A lot more involved than Travis Mayne, but he
may be a good lead in to get like, you know,
Ryan on your show for sure. Colonel Mannion's
a great guy, too. Ryan's dad. he's he's he's
phenomenal he's got a little bit older but yeah
still just great american colonel marine corps
just just a great guy uh but yeah just a great
great foundation but uh i can only get with joey
faye for sure and you can you can you can pull
that pull that strength yeah that'd be amazing
thank you so much all right well then for people
listening Just kind of reiterate again, your
website and then any other places on social media
people can find you. Yeah, you can find me on
LinkedIn, active LinkedIn guy. Got over like
9000 connections there. So feel free to connect
to me there. Hunter K. Jones. Obviously, my website,
American Jones and Associates Consulting, www
.jonesconsultantservices .com. Um, obviously
on Facebook as well. Um, not on there as much,
you know, it can be, you know, good and bad,
right. But, um, at on LinkedIn pretty much every
day, daily, uh, it's probably the best place
to get me on my website. Um, and like Facebook
messenger, you know, again, I checked that once
in a while, but you know, LinkedIn is a place
to go. Brilliant. Well, I want to thank you so
much. It's been such an amazing conversation.
And this is what I love about. interviewing people
that were actually there rather than having a
political sway or whatever bias someone would
have. When we hear the people, whether it was
in combat, whether it was at 9 -11, whatever
it is, you get to hear the actual voice of the
people that saw it with their own eyeballs. Exactly.
Such an invaluable conversation. So I want to
thank you so, so much for being so generous with
your time and coming on the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Yeah, no, and I appreciate you
giving me the opportunity to do so. It's been
awesome. Great getting to know you too. And glad
we finally made this work. And I think, how many
books do you have out? And I wanted to ask you
this. Two now. Two now. So you got another one
coming out? Uh, not for a while. No, I've got
an idea for another one, but the next thing is
making the second one into a TV show. That's
my next mission. All right. So I'll have to get
a couple of those copies of like, I'd like to
get you to, you know, autograph them and, you
know, put a little note in there for me at some
point we can, we can handle that offline. But
I, um, I wasn't tracking the books and stuff,
but I'm definitely going to dive into them. You
know, I've really enjoyed the time being with
you and, uh, you know, I'll get you over some
contact information from other people to have
on this podcast. And, uh, if i can ever do anything
for you your family by all means let me know
i'm here to serve so what i do