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Behind the Shield podcast. And you will hear
my interview with Wes Barnett and Joel Totoro
from Thorn. Welcome to episode 336 of Behind
the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James
Gearing. And this week, I'm extremely excited
to welcome back onto the podcast, Joel Salatin.
Now, Joel is a world -renowned holistic farmer
who has appeared on multiple documentaries, including
Forks Over Knives and Food Inc. And was also
my guest on episode four. So if you haven't heard
that, I highly recommend listening to that. But
in the wake of this pandemic, I really want to
pull out some of the basal health practices that
we can glean from clean farming, from understanding
what we're eating and the quality of what we're
eating so that we can then build resilience within
the communities around the world. So this was
another amazing interview with Joel. I'm so,
so glad he was able to come back on. Before we
get to the interview, as I say, every single
week, please just take a moment, go to whichever
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and women's stories so that we can get them to
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to hear them. I truly, truly believe there are
some life -changing stories on here. So with
that being said, I introduce to you Joel Salatin.
Enjoy. Joel, firstly, I want to say thank you
so much for coming back on the podcast. You were
one of my very first guests, episode four, which
was almost four years ago now. So here we are.
sitting in the middle of a pandemic. So welcome
back to the show. Thank you. It's a delight and
an honor to be with you, James. Brilliant. Well,
I would love to jump straight into that topic.
I heard you on Joe Rogan a few weeks ago, and
the things you talked about resonated deeply
with me, and there's some other things I'd love
to expand on that that you guys didn't have time
to address. But right off the bat, so tell me
from your perspective as a holistic farmer, What
have been your observations with the last few
months? Well, the main observation is that we,
as a culture, we have refused to take responsibility,
take personal responsibility for A, getting healthy,
and B, the level of... sickness that we've had
in our country. I mean, you know, every country
wants to, you know, have the best gymnast or
the fastest 100 -yard dash runner. You know,
there are places where you want to lead the world,
but there are places where you don't want to
lead the world. And the fact that the U .S. leads
the world in non -infectious morbidity, so that's,
you know, cancer, diabetes, obesity, things like
that, that take life, heart disease. The fact
that we lead the world, we're number one in the
world in those per capita, you know, should give
us pause. For all our cleverness, we're not in
a good place. And I would suggest that perhaps
that's one reason why we're suffering more than
other countries. It's not because of, you know,
face masks and lockdowns and, you know, other
things. To me, it's consistent with the fact
that we lead the world in these non -infectious,
what we call, you know, Western lifestyle problems.
And so I would love to see somebody push Anthony
Fauci aside one time and take the microphone
and say, okay, America, let's spend one week
working on our immune system. We can do that
a lot. faster than a vaccine, and we can do that
right now, and it doesn't really cost us anything.
So what would be a recipe for immune building?
So first of all, for a week, we're not going
to drink any Coke, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, sugary
drinks. We're not going to eat junk food. We're
not going to go to McDonald's. We're going to
actually cook and eat unprocessed foods. And
we're going to sleep eight and a half hours.
And we're going to drink three quarts of water
to get rehydrated. Almost every American is dehydrated,
which is a real health issue. And we're going
to spend one hour a day outside. I mean, we're
in the summer. There's never a better time to
spend an hour a day outside. getting some vitamin
D, some exercise, throw a ball with the dog,
the kids, the whatever. Grandma, I don't care,
but get out and get some activity, some exercise,
throw the ball, and then maybe it would be good
to forgive everybody that you hate because hatred
and vengeance drop cortisol levels and play havoc
with our immune system. So let's live and let
live and get rid of that. And, you know, I mean,
those are like six things I just mentioned. But,
I mean, if we really devoted ourselves to that
for one week, you know, and another one might
be turn off the depressing news for at least
one hour a day and watch something hilarious
like Red Skelton or Laurel and Hardy. And just
laugh, laugh strong and hard for an hour a day.
That might be good too. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's
what I've seen from the beginning. I want to
explore, obviously, the whole building immunity
side in depth in a minute. But for what we've
got now, for where people are in their health
when this first started, to me, two things. Firstly,
as a firefighter paramedic for 14 years, when
they started touting the numbers and showing...
images from ers you know i'm like well that's
what happens every day in america in in the inner
city our ers are swamped usually you know so
there's a lot of false narrative but the only
way that you're gonna build resilience is like
you said you know in the very short term aside
from the nutritional and exercise element is
the state of mind and it was the complete opposite
where they basically scared the shit out of everyone
thus you know further lowering the immunity of
the population Yes, yes. And the whole fixation,
I guess the right word is fixation. When you
are fixated on fear, yes, you don't function.
Your body, your whole physical system, when you're
fixated on fear, your body doesn't function very
well. So when we quarantine, I mean, never in
history have healthy people been quarantined.
Here we are, you know, normally you quarantine
sick people. Or, you know, that's how you stop
these things. So instead of quarantining sick
people, you know, we're quarantining healthy
people and upsetting everyone's life, disappointing
people, creating incredible economic hardship
on many people. And all of this adds to this.
fear fixation, this, this paranoia, hysteria,
uh, fixation that, that becomes an all consuming
thing, uh, in our psyche. And, and then of course
it, it, it, uh, permeates in, into our physical,
uh, health. And it's, uh, it's very unfortunate.
I mean, uh, you know, we, it's, it's good to
be aware. of things but uh to be completely fixated
on fear is is not a healthy cultural position
to be in no and it seems like the from what i'm
seeing we're being sold almost the idea that
there should be no death or disease at all so
that's like the baseline for them versus you
know the death of disease that we that we see
and if there was a ticker tape in the corner
you know, a number counting the narrowing of
arteries, that thing would blow, you know, the
COVID numbers out the war. And that's what's
so disappointing is I've never seen anyone do
a mandatory non -evacuation where you can't go
home. You have to stay outside and run and play
and exercise and pick fruit and eat it. And,
you know, we lose millions and millions and millions
of people to obesity. We lose millions to cancer
from cigarettes. And I don't see the same push.
for any of these conditions that are killing
numerous times more people than COVID. Yes. Well,
yesterday, our Virginia news here, the top story
was Virginia. You know, we lost two. Two people
died yesterday from COVID in Virginia. And this
was the top statewide news story. Two people
died. Well, how many people died of a heart attack
or suicide or, goodness, a car wreck? You know,
to make that headline news, it's just hysteria.
Yeah, I agree with you 100 % that there are,
you know, is this a thing? Yes, it is a thing.
But it is certainly, it doesn't deserve the level
of fear that it's... It's created, like you say,
narrowing of arteries, different things, different
diseases and things. We're still far behind many
things. And the refusal of the data points to
indicate who is getting this. I mean, it is so
primarily toward people with comorbidities. But
the data points just have to report the numbers
because if you say that, if you point out that
80 % of the people are over 80 years old, then
suddenly you're expressing ageism and that sort
of thing. And so isn't it amazing that out of
this whole period of fear, quarantining, economic
and emotional stress, Here we come in with the
George Floyd thing. We come in with the urban
violence thing and the looting and the racism.
And, you know, cities are burning. And we just
have, we have pent up. I'm convinced that much
of this, you know, violence we're seeing in our
cities right now is partly just. pent up it's
it's pent up expression of four months of being
couch potatoes and you know we're not we're not
built to be uh hermit couch potatoes no i mean
i think it's it's an interesting perspective
even for the way we do prisons in a lot of the
western world you know locking people away for
hours and hours and hours this has been a great
social experiment that that is not good for rehabilitation
because it's it's turned some very seemingly
normal people into some pretty crazy behaviors
that you see on the news. But what I want to
get to is the preventative side, because that's
not what's being spoken about. And then I want
to also get to the creation of some of these
diseases through market and farming practices.
But when this first kicked off, I made a video
about... how I was worried about first responders
because the shifts that they work, the long,
long work weeks, they are, you know, the ones
that people are leaning on. They're probably
some of the less resilient people. And we've
seen many, many police officers and firefighters
die. I've got two friends that were both in ICU.
Thankfully, they're both out now, but they had
multiple things, multiple areas that would have
compromised their immune system, which is why
they had such a severe reaction. What are we
doing wrong as a nation that's creating one of
the wealthiest countries on the planet, you know,
an ill health epidemic? Well, I think this has
to go clear back to the soil that we, as a culture,
I mean, we developed genetically modified organisms.
We developed DDT, you know. Glyphosate. Goodness,
we developed a food pyramid in 1979, the USDA
did, that put Cheerios and Froot Loops on the
foundational level of the food pyramid. As a
nation, we were the first in the world to say
it was wrong to eat lard and butter. and told
everybody to go to hydrogenated vegetable oil.
Remember all the margarine ads. And so my point
there is that we have led the world in experimenting
to the fringes of fake and adulterated fertilizer,
soil development. plant development, and foods.
Other cultures, I mean, you don't have to travel
very much, but if you travel around the world,
you will find that cultures really define themselves
with a food culture, an architecture culture,
a religion culture. I mean, Prince Charles says
that every culture is defined by three things,
food, architecture, and religion. When I go around
the world and ask somebody in Germany or Sweden
or, you know, Spain and say, when I say America
food culture, what do you think of? I've never
found anybody that said anything except McDonald's.
And that represents the, you know, the most,
you know, a factory farmed industrial chemical
oriented food that is. that leads the world in
numbers, in number of people who eat that kind
of food as a percentage of per capita consumption.
And number two, it came here first. And now,
of course, we're trying to export this. We're
exporting Coca -Cola, exporting McDonald's all
over the world. And every culture, every country
where these are exported, guess what? we see
diabetes, we see obesity, and we see heart disease.
You know, we see these things developing. So,
you know, it's not rocket science just to appreciate
that in our luxury and in our convenience -oriented,
and I would just say non -cultural food tradition.
I mean, there's a fascinating thread of thought
that... For example, in Europe, the phrase is
not, well, did you get enough to eat? It is rather,
well, how did it taste? And in Europe, actually,
there's a culture of eating not very much at
a meal because it was in royalty. When you have
royalty and peasants, you have a very demarcated
culture. It was a sign of refinement and wealth
that I didn't have to gorge on food because I
knew there was another meal coming. In America,
as we started, and I'm going back here, but,
you know, listen, cultural DNA goes deep. And
in America, where we came to this frontier, and
you didn't know if you were going to get a next
meal. we developed a food culture of getting
enough. Did we get enough to survive? Read the
Lewis and Clark expedition. I mean, these guys
literally went, you know, day to day wondering
if they were going to get something to eat. There
were no big fat Dunkin' Donuts guys on the Lewis
and Clark expedition. They were lean and mean,
and they literally went from, you know, musket
shot to musket shot with deer or bear or whatever
they could get. And so our American food tradition
was very, very different. We developed a very,
very different tradition. It was not about quality.
It was not about texture or taste or terroir,
you know, like in France. There was nothing like
that. It was just, you know, did you get enough
to... to go another day. And this was even a
Native American thing. I mean, one of the reasons
the Native Americans were so prone to alcohol
problems was because they ate sporadically. You
know, when the bison were around and they could
get enough to eat, they would eat up to 10 pounds
of bison in a day and just sit around and gorge
for a week. Because it might be, you know, a
couple of weeks until they got another really
good meal. And so this was also a Native American
thing as well. And so, you know, the Europeans,
as they came here and interacted with the Native
Americans and saw the lack of security, you know,
our deep, deep DNA in our area is a food. Did
you get enough? Did you fill up of food feasting?
Or I should even say indulgence and overheating
as opposed to the more European concept. And
so that's deep in our DNA. And so as we have
come in our... modern culture to where we were
able to grow plenty and we were able to grow
it cheaply, we didn't have a food tradition,
if you will, a quality -type food tradition like
in Europe. We developed a more kind of food as
a necessity. It's a sideline, but the real work
is building railroads and doing important work.
And food's kind of a sideline to the really important
stuff in life. And that's kind of our culture.
And so the result is that we don't put attention
on food like other cultures do. Now, you mentioned
about the railroads and everything. The one thing
that I see over and over again, you can talk
about the industrialization of food, the mega
farms, and even things like racism, starting
with slavery, is the common denominator is a
few people wanting to get incredibly wealthy
at the expense of the masses. So seeing as we're
on this kind of history timeline, kind of walk
us through how we went from more local farms
to the industrialization and then what... impact
that had back in the middle of last century?
Sure, sure. So I think all of us can bear blame.
I mean, I'm not a victim kind of person. I can
repent. I've got plenty enough stuff to repent
about as well as anybody else. And so I think
a simplistic answer to that is not helpful. We
need to understand that all of us as a culture,
we were complicit in this move from craft and
artisan work and small farms to these industrial
mega farms, monocropping, mono things. And again,
part of this was due to food security and government
thinking, well, we can move this along, we can
incentivize so that we're never short of food
at all. And so early in the 20th century, we
started the food programs, we started subsidies.
Of course, Abraham Lincoln started the USDA,
which I'm sure he thought would be helpful, but
it turned out that the fraternity between the
government and the industry was a bit of an unholy
alliance. created amalgamation, centralization,
and of course everything was about efficiency.
Can we be efficient? And so as our country industrialized,
we saw food as an industrial thing as well. And
America, again, more than any other culture,
I think, bought into this idea that life is mechanical,
kind of a mechanical view toward life. rather
than life being biological. And, you know, are
there some, you know, mechanical elements? Well,
yeah, you know, you've got leverage in your limbs
and joints and things like that. There are certainly
mechanical elements. But the idea of biology,
where it can heal, where it can be wounded and
heal, that's very non -mechanical. You know,
if you're... front wheel bearing goes out and
starts to thump, you don't stop the truck and
wait for it to heal or go around and ask for
it to forgive you for not lubricating it. Nothing
repairs it except replacing the bearing. But
fortunately, living things, including our own
psychology, we can say, you know, an unkind word
to somebody and then apologize, and that wound
can heal. And physically it can heal. We get
a scrape, we get a splinter, we get a cut, and
it can heal. That's very different biologically
than mechanically. But we developed these chemical
fertilizers, the pesticides, the herbicides.
Of course, World War II, we had these stockpiles.
of anhydrous ammonia. And frankly, farmers were
tired of shoveling poop, very tired of shoveling
poop. We'd shoveled and shoveled and shoveled
and shoveled and shoveled. And boy, if you present
a farmer, do you want to shovel poop all day,
or would you rather just put on this little bag
of 5 -10 -10 and be done with it? almost any
farmer is going to grab that bag of 5, 10, 10.
So be gentle on great -grandpa in post -World
War II when he reached for that bag of chemical
fertilizer when he was worn out and tired of
shoveling and shoveling. Well, what happened
was that through the 1950s and early 1960s, as
mechanization and equipment developed on farms,
The other side was not standing still either.
The infrastructure necessary to run a carbon
-based, organic matter -based farm fertility
program was also developing. We're talking about
water pipe, front -end loaders, PTO shafts, ground
-driven manure spreaders, chippers and shredders,
and that sort of thing. And so the infrastructure
to run a credible, viable, alternative... carbon
-based, non -chemical approach was well in place
by the mid-'60s and late-'60s. But by that time,
the chemical approach had completely come to
dominate our universities, our government institutions,
and even the food system. So you have that thread
on the farm. Meanwhile, you have post -World
War II. Tax policy, taxes are going up, and so
we've got to have, we've got to take, we have
two incomers instead of one incomer. Took the
woman out of the house. I'm being very sexist,
but this is fact. This is the way it was. Took
the women out of the house. Well, now they can't
cook anymore, so now we've got to have TV dinners.
Those came in in the late 50s. You also had the
notion in the 50s that breastfeeding babies was
somehow Neanderthal and barbaric. And if you
wanted to really be, you know, hip and modern,
you used infamil and similac. We raised a generation
of asthmatics on artificial milk. Now we know,
of course, that breast milk is absolutely the
best. We have, you know, that whole orthodox
narrative is inverted back to, you know, ancient
heritage wisdom of not only is it healthy for
the baby, but in post -life we know that there's
a directly... between breast cancer and breastfeeding.
And if breastfeeding has occurred, there's a
lot less breast cancer later on in life. All
those things develop. So our pendulum really,
really swung into this industrial paradigm of
life, this kind of artificial, sterile, mechanical
life view. And as a result, measure is pounds
and efficiency. And when you just measure in
pounds and efficiency without regard to quality,
without regard to destruction of something on
the way to that, like every bushel of corn loses
two bushels of soil. a dead zone the size of
Rhode Island and the Gulf of Mexico, those externalized
costs on the way to efficiency today, we basically
sold the future for today's prosperity. And the
result of that has been a new lexicon that's
developed in our culture. I mean, those of us
over 60 years old, we, as children, We never
heard terms like food allergy. You know, if you
wanted a potluck or a birthday party, moms didn't
have to call each other and say, you know, what
kind of food allergies am I dealing with? You
just got together and shared food, you know.
E. coli, salmonella, campylobacter, listeria,
bovine spongiform encephalopathy, high -path
avian influenza. I mean, this is all. a lexicon,
food allergy, all a lexicon that's developed
as a result of cheating and taking shortcuts
with our ecological womb, our ecological umbilical.
And more and more of us now are realizing, oh,
well, I guess resiliency is as important as efficiency.
And we need to think about how we actually have
a regenerative food system that regenerates the
soil. regenerates the commons, air, water, and
regenerates the human strength. How do we have
a food and farming system that is fundamentally
biological and regenerative as opposed to just
mechanical, exploitive, and efficient? And those
are the conversations now that this whole, that
our disruptive point in history. Those are the
conversations we're starting to have, and I would
just say it's about time, and it's a very positive
thing. It's the silver lining of the cloud of
the uncertain, insecure times we're dealing in
to be actually pushed to start having some of
these conversations. Yeah, well, I'm glad that
you highlighted the ownership of each one of
us as well, because when you look at that path,
you realize that we created it. The reason why
that mega supermarket made it in your town and
shut down the butcher and the baker and everyone
else was because we went there. But I think what
is very empowering is if we take that lesson
and get over the shame, if we can realize that
the absolute opposite is also in effect. So if
we choose to now... Now we understand that to
go seek out our local farmers, you know, support
the brand new butcher or, you know, craft brewer
or coffee shop, whatever it is, then we are going
to turn that around ourselves. And that's what
I've learned. And I grew up in England and then,
you know, moved here about almost 20 years ago
now. Whether it's a prime minister in the UK
or a president here, none of those people are
going to fix your problems for you. We as the
nation have to band together and we can vote.
And I don't think that the actual ballot slip
does too much, to be honest. But I think the
dollar or the pound does an incredible amount.
So by us searching the right places, the small
farms and all the areas that actually are healthy,
we can reverse it. But we have to do it together.
Yes. Whatever physical manifestation we have
right now, whether it's eroding soil or nutrient
deficient food or full hospitals or whatever
it is, is simply a cumulative physical manifestation
of trillions and trillions of decisions that
we have made over the course of history. We have
arrived where we've... we have arrived where
we are because we've been traveling that direction.
And if we want to arrive at a different point,
we need to travel a different direction. And
so, yes, you're exactly right. Tomorrow's context,
you know, let's just go out 50 years to maybe
our grandchildren, when they're our age, when
their context, will also be a physical manifestation
of the trillions and trillions of decisions that
will be made between now and then. And that sounds
simplistic, but it's absolutely true. And so
as we start making different decisions, we're
going to change that trajectory. You know, on
our little farm, whatever, cooler bags. We have
our logo on one side and on the other side is
a moniker that says healing the land one bite
at a time. And we put that on there so that all
of our customers understand that when you buy
soil building, water replenishing, air refreshing,
nutrient dense food, you are creating a fundamentally
healing context. as opposed to a sickening context.
And that's a legacy worth investing in, and it's
a legacy worth leaving. Yeah, and I think that's
a very important point that a lot of people misunderstand,
is that America is overfed, but we're malnourished.
And I think that the lack of education of the
impact of destroying our soil having on the actual
nutrients of the food that we put in our mouths
is a lesson that needs to be taught. So how do
we reverse the damage that we've done to our
agricultural land? And how can we regenerate
it to the point where we can create incredibly
nutritious foods again? Yeah, well, there are
kind of two threads of thought. On that question,
I mean, one threat is, well, we need better ag
policy, a better farm bill. We need to quit subsidizing
and protecting corn, soybeans, cotton, sugar,
and rice and wheat, the six commodity crops that
all require tillage and use by far and away the
largest share of chemicals and pesticides on
the planet. So there's that element, just a change
of policy. But that's the bogeyman after. That's
the easy way to point your finger and say, okay,
I'm not responsible. Somebody else has to fix
this. That's always the temptation, isn't it?
Well, I can't do anything about this. I can't
change policy, so I go on my merry way. Which
brings me to the second thread, and the second
thread is, what can we do personally? I'm not
real optimistic about whatever governmental direction,
you know, federal change of orthodoxy. I mean,
you see stuff change once in a while, but in
general, the trajectory seems to be not toward
a good place. And so that brings me back to the
thread of personal responsibility. What can I
do? And I kind of have three. Three areas that
a person can participate in today. One is you
can get in your kitchen. Again, that's not a
sexist thing, but in our kitchens. We have never
had so many techno, glitzy, gadgetized, convenient...
infrastructure in our chickens and our kitchens,
but we've never been so lost as to how to use
them, where they are. The average American spends
less than 14 minutes a day in their kitchen.
And I heard a food talk lately, actually a professor
from Oxford in England, and he's a food marketing
guru. And he said, and he's older, He said, in
my generation, we always asked, what's for dinner?
And today's young people ask, what's dinner?
And that was a really profound phrase. I thought
it was great because it's true. You know, we
buy little single -serving packages. And so kind
of my new litmus test for people that are thinking
about this is, are you eating leftovers? Because
leftovers show that you actually probably cooked
something from scratch, you ate as a family,
and you're not going out to eat tomorrow. For
lunch, you're going to have leftovers. I mean,
I've lived on leftovers all my life. I love them.
There's nothing more convenient than eating leftovers.
So get in your kitchen. That's number one. Number
two is do something yourself. You can get a vermicomposting,
a little earthworm bed under your kitchen sink
to eat your food scraps. You can grow a tomato
on the patio, on the front porch, a little herb.
Now there's all these cool little urban gardening
gadgets from PVC pipes with pockets in them that
you can hang on your front porch. you know, window
boxes to, you know, postage stamp backyard kinds
of things, you know, barrel gardens, all sorts
of things. So, you know, you can grow something
yourself and just participate in the majesty,
the mystery, and the awesomeness of life. It'll
teach you to be humble and realize that, you
know, I'm not the center of the universe. There's
something bigger going on here than just me.
And the third thing, So we've got get in your
kitchen, number two, grow something yourself,
anything. And number three, then, is to take
some, a portion, budget your recreational entertainment
time and build some relationships with your local
food shed. You know, every area now has really
great authentic integrity farms that are, you
know, with compost instead of chemicals. They
are producing a diversified product as opposed
to monocrops. And most of them are direct marketing
or they have some sort of a local brand identity.
Meet some of these people. Go visit their farms.
And let me tell you, right now during this whole
coronavirus thing, There's not a better place
to go that's safer and more entertaining than
a farm. I mean, this isn't Disney World. It's
not, you know, it's not a theme park. It's not
even a museum, you know. It's just out here in
the country. Wiggle your fingers through some
soil. Walk barefoot through the pasture, you
know, and start creating some relationships and
connections. with your local farmer food shed
so that you will have that level of connection
and food security so you're not the one that's
stuck in the future. The one that's stuck is
the one that goes to the supermarket and says,
ooh, the shelves are empty. But I know where
my food is. It's right here at Farmer John's
or Farmer Jill's or whatever. And if you develop
that, your farmers will take care of you also
during good times and bad or whatever. So those
are three things that anybody could do to invest
in a different trajectory than the way we've
been going. Well, I love that. You hit on a very,
very important point as well, and something I
just kind of had an epiphany on recently. When
you said leftovers, so in the fitness space,
there has been this big kind of upsurgence of
what they call meal prepping. And you basically,
you know, prepare meals for several days and
you either freeze them or whatever. But basically,
that's what we call leftovers for hundreds and
hundreds of years, because I grew up on a farm.
It was the same thing. They'd cook for double
the size of the family. And that way, the next
day you had, you know, it doesn't have to be
the next day, even a day or two later, you ate
what you ate. prior and is no more convenient
than leftovers. I mean, even McDonald's, you've
still got to go there and sit in a car in a drive
-thru or wait in a line, whereas you just open
your fridge and the meal that you cooked a couple
of days ago is now there just to be heated up
again. Yeah, that's exactly right. And again,
when I say get in the kitchen, you know, I'm
not talking about grandma's kitchen where, you
know, she had to get up at four o 'clock to put
wood in the stove to get it hot enough to fry
eggs on when papa came in for milking the cow.
I mean, we now have time -baked, and we've got
bread makers, ice cream makers, hot and cold
running water, and refrigerators and freezers
and, you know, microwaves and all the gadgetry
that you can imagine. So it's never, the thing
is, it's never been easier. It's never been more
convenient to be in our kitchens. Let's utilize
the technology that we have. Never has it been
easier to eat more responsibly than now. And
so we need to exercise that. Absolutely. Well,
another area that I really want to get your perspective
on is, do you know who Jamie Oliver is, a British
cook? Oh, absolutely. So Jamie did an incredible
thing in the UK. I think he tried to do it here
in the US as well, where he changed what school
food looked like in British schools and tried
over here in the US. And to me, that is absolutely
where the first line needs to be. If we're educating
our children on what food is, how it's grown,
and then serving that same clean food in their
cafeterias, you're going to create an entire
generation of kids that... aren't programmed
by fast food and processed food anymore. But
one of the pushbacks I always hear from people,
and I think it comes from a lack of education,
is, oh, that would be more expensive. And Jamie
appeared to show that that was absolutely false
in the documentaries that he was shown in, doing
that in the schools that he worked with. So from
your perspective... Can we feed our children
in the schools for the same budget that they're
given for whatever it is, Cisco food that's shipped
in? From my perspective, no. We are going to
have to invest more in food. And I'd love to
see some of his budgeting. I know there are major
cost savings. For example, If the school actually
cooks food instead of getting all pre -processed,
there can be some pretty significant savings.
Also, I know that nutrient -dense food satiates
faster, so you don't need to eat the volume that
you do when you're just eating empty calories
or calories that aren't hooked up with depth
nutrition. And so there are some – I'm sure some
of this is all part of that. Of course, there's
always the externalized cost of higher quality
food – I'm sorry, of cheap food. Externalized
cost from dead zones in riparian areas to the
fact that half of all cases of diarrhea are from
foodborne illness. And we just have all of the
diseases of nutrient deficiency as well. And
I don't think we've begun to explore all of those
externalized costs. But, you know, good food
goes faster. It goes farther. I mean, I was telling
a guy yesterday, recounting a story that we got
from a chef that we started taking eggs to, and
our eggs were like, you know. three times as
expensive as the Cisco eggs he'd been using.
But he said, we actually make more money with
yours because in the regular industrial eggs,
there's always a couple cracked or broken in
the flat because the shells are thin. Well, those
have leaked over onto their partners, and you
end up sticking your finger through a couple
of those, trying to get them dislodged from the
glue of the... white that's leaked out into its
neighbor, you know, egg. And then if somebody
wants an overeasy or sunny side up fried egg,
then next thing you know, the yolk breaks because
you don't have structural integrity in the egg.
You have to throw that one away, get another
one. So he said, even though we're paying more
for yours, they actually go a lot farther because
we never have to throw one away. There's never
a broken one. And, of course, it's not just a
broken egg or the throwaway. Then you have the
labor, you have the cooking time. All of those
kinds of things add up. We know, for example,
that all of our meats cook 20 % to 30 % faster
than industrial meat. And we believe that it's
because industrial meat is all full of adrenaline.
Adrenaline tightens up muscle tissue. And these
factory animals, they're stressed their entire
life. And so all that cumulative stress comes
out into the meat, into the muscle tissue, and
takes it longer to cook. Ours cooks in way, way
less time. Well, what's that worth? You know,
in the kitchen, cooking time is valuable. I mean,
you've got labor, you've got energy, you've got
infrastructure tie -up time. When you start taking
all of those kinds of related things around the
actual meal prep procedure, from human sickness
to externalized to satiation to wasted product
to cooking time, all of those things, they actually
add up. We tell people, even though our price
tag is higher, we actually have the cheapest
food in the world because the price that's on
the tag is everything. There's no hidden cost.
There's nothing out here lurking. There's no
bogeyman going to get you from that price. It's
the real price, and it's the honest price. And
so that's my answer. I don't think we could possibly
sell eggs. just straight up price competitive
to um you know to the to the factory eggs uh
but there's no there's no comparison any eggs
either yeah ours actually ours actually taste
good and give you a vibrant life well exactly
i think that's it i mean there's obviously a
huge nutritional advantage i think one of the
areas where jamie was highlighting they could
save money was exactly what you said they they
took these These, you know, people that worked
in the kitchens and rather than just shoving
things in an oven, they taught them how to cook.
They used fresh vegetables. They made chicken
nuggets from, you know, chicken breasts. I don't
know if they were the best raised chicken, but
I mean, again, that's where you would add that.
extra layer of the budget to really make sure
you maximize nutrition in children's health but
you imagine the knock -on effect of the financial
side of not having sick americans anymore you
would save money hand over fist aside from the
ethical issue oh absolutely and and in that uh
in that space i think it's I think it's important
to realize that right now, today, as you and
I talk, I'm sure you've seen the movie, the documentary,
Food, Inc. And that one, for example, the family
that went to Burger King and got that meal for
their son and said they couldn't afford vegetables
at the supermarket, that fast food meal, you
know, with the big... soda and the french fries
and the burger and all that fast food meal cost
more than two whole pounds of our grass finished
ground beef right now and there's more nutrition
in half a pound of our ground beef than that
whole fast food meal and so that's the kind of
thing i think as as jamie oliver poked around
these edges You can change your whole providence
and your whole economic situation if you change
your providence. One of the things that we know
right now, for example, is that our pasture GMO
-free world -class chicken, if you get a whole
chicken, it's cheaper. than a Tyson breast down
at Walmart. Per pound. It's cheaper per pound
than a Tyson breast at Walmart. And so if you
get a whole chicken from us, you know, you're
going to have three or four meals, eat the whole
thing. Leftovers, you're going to have broth,
you're going to have, you know, all this stuff.
You get a boneless, skinless breast down at Walmart
from Tyson, It might be convenient, but you're
not actually going to have nutrition. You're
not going to actually have value, full value
from that bone and skinless breast. So whenever
somebody starts talking about price, I start
looking at, well, what are you currently spending
your money on? And pretty quickly, 90 % of the
people, you can find some very glaring... luxuries,
unnecessary luxuries that are eating up the food
budget that could much more strategically be
spent on, you know, on unprocessed whole foods
and eating nose to tail. Absolutely. Well, it
seems like the word false economy applies to
so many areas. It applies to my peers in the
tactical professions that are being worked into
the ground and they're saving money, quote unquote,
on their staffing, but then they're paying way
more when they retire out or get hurt or all
these other expenses on the back end. But another
false economy, which I really want to explore
with you, is the effect of factory farming. Now,
obviously, any decent human being, just the ethical
side would be enough to make you not want to
see that anywhere on planet Earth. But aside
from that, growing up in England, we had BSE.
We discovered that they were feeding ground -up
cows to cows in the farms. Tell me about the
farming practices and the... the breeding ground
that they create, not only for disease in the
animals themselves, but also, you know, maybe
a precursor to some of these pandemics that we've
seen before. Well, certainly, you know, it doesn't
take a rocket scientist to connect the dots that
we are what we eat, we are, and we are what we
eat, eats. And so if our, if our animals are
raised in confinement and fecal, in fecal particulate,
in other words, the, the air is dusty with their
manure, their, their, They live in their own
manure at all times and breathe it in as well.
So it would be like you living in your toilet.
And they eat there. They sleep there. They do
everything there. And they're sedentary. They're
confined. They can't exercise. They don't get
sunshine. And they don't get fresh air. They
don't get exercise. And their diet is completely
calorie -driven for fast growth. um as opposed
to completely well -rounded nutrients so they
grow extra fast if you create that kind of of
habitat it is it is intuitive even if it's not
empirically proven right now but it certainly
is intuitive that if that's what we're eating
that's what we're going to look like we're going
to look like what we eat. And so if the animals
are high -stressed, calorie -driven, fat -oriented,
non -exercise, then we're going to start looking
that same way. In other words, flabby pork makes
flabby people. So what's not surprising is that
people begin to look like what they eat, and
that includes the simplicity on our farms. We
don't have diversified farms. We have extremely
simplistic ones, and nature is not simplistic.
Nature is highly complex. It's very relational,
and it's interrelational, synergistic, and symbiotic.
And our farms are essentially single species,
single plant, single animal. We don't even mix
plants and animals. And so that simplicity, and
in fact, we even dump chemical fertilizer on
the soil as opposed to leveraging the complexity
of the actinomycetes, mycelium, all the soil
microbial life that has more beings. in a double
handful than there are people on the face of
the earth. That's how many beings are in a handful
of healthy soil. So instead of leveraging that,
we simplistically throw on chemical nitrogen,
potassium, and phosphorus, and then we wonder
why our plants have fungus and disease and need
prop -ups of fumigants and chemicals and everything
else. And so as we develop these crutches, as
we develop these, these pharmaceutical and chemical
crutches to take our plants and animals forward
in a time of simplistic soil and animal feeding,
it's natural that we're going to start, what's
the word, crutching? We're going to start seeing
the same thing in our population. In fact, in
1950, when he wrote an agricultural testament,
Sir Albert Howard, who was kind of the godfather
of modern sustainable agriculture, he developed
the scientific formula for aerobic composting.
In his absolute, you know, iconic book, An Agricultural
Testament, 1950, or 50, no, I'm sorry, I'm a
decade off. It came out about 1943, so right
in the middle of World War II. He had this statement,
he said, He said it is the temptation of every
society to turn what nature has spent centuries
building into cash. The other thing he said was
that when we use artificial, that's what he called
chemical fertilizers, artificial manures, he
called them artificial manures, artificial manures
on the soil, it makes artificial soil, which
grows artificial plants, which grows artificial
people who can only be kept alive. with artificials
you nailed it if that wasn't if that wasn't prophetically
prescient i don't know what is yeah no i mean
that was absolutely spot on and it's terrifying
and that that's that's the behind the curtain
um you know vision that i've been able to get
in the last 15 years and it's a tragic it's a
tragic realization but you know i i don't want
to demonize the medical industry because they
do so many good things. But using pharmaceuticals
for chronic disease management is one of the
biggest tragedies in human health, where it should
be fitness and nutrition reversing and mitigating
disease. Yes, absolutely. And yeah, listen, you
know, I'm very thankful that we have some pretty
sophisticated medical options in our arsenal
today. Absolutely. I'm glad that we have The
problem is, though, that we then created a factory
farming system that required antibiotics for
the animals to stay alive. A lot of people don't
realize that the lion's share of antibiotics
in the United States actually don't go through
people. They go through animals, and we eat them
for dinner. And so we did a messaging campaign
one time. Who's been drugging your dinner? We
take this something that's really a blessing,
that's really a blessing, and we overuse it and
abuse it and turn it into a liability with our
own greed and short -sighted view. And so here
we are. So what we need to be doing is collectively
working on and dedicating ourselves to a higher
immunological function. and have the hospitals
there when we need them. But if they could be
limited to accidents and injury, things like
that, it would fundamentally change our economy
and our overall cultural wellness. Yeah, absolutely.
Well, going back to the cause as well, just for
a moment. When you look back, you know, there's
some certain diseases that have made a huge impact
in history. There's a black death. There's, you
know, cholera, both of which they realized were
actually, you know. human waste into you know
a water supply or even just just in the streets
like uh old age london and then you look at the
spanish flu which very coincidentally happened
right after world war one where you know thousands
of men lay dying and rotting in trenches in in
europe um and then now we look at excuse me at
um the uh covid and we're told about the bats
in the wet markets so again people kind of you
know wringing their hands and and crying to the
heavens like why why is this happening what element
of of farming practices and raising animals do
you think is contributing to some of these horrendous
viruses that we're seeing that are then killing
a lot of our people well whenever you whenever
you concentrate an inordinate number of animals
in a unsanitary place so we've got we've got
concentration we've got So we've got density,
we've got mass, scale, size, and we have horrendous
unsanitary conditions. And in many cases, approximate,
take those three things, concentration, scale,
and lack of hygiene, and then mix animals that
would never otherwise even be close to each other.
otherwise, and certainly not at those kinds of
concentrations and unsanitary conditions. When
you start pushing that envelope, it's naturally
going to push you into strange mutations. It's
going to push you into new pathogenicities and
toxicities that humankind has not seen before.
The ability of humans today with cheap energy,
transportation, and distribution capabilities
with trains and trucks and all that, our newfound
ability to concentrate at scale is unprecedented.
Just even a century and a half ago, when it was
still all draft power, oxen, horses, mules, You
simply could not concentrate at scale what we
were able to do today because you couldn't move
enough feedstock in, you couldn't move the manure
out, and so you were limited logistically with
the ability to transport material. Today, we
don't have that limitation. So all around the
world... We can overrun the ecological nest,
if you will, a proper hygienic ecological nest.
We can overrun that willy -nilly. And, in fact,
we do. And when we do that, we create all sorts
of problems. I mean, goodness, North Carolina
here in the U .S. North Carolina, if it weren't
for a hurricane every two years to come in and
flush all the pig lagoons in North Carolina,
North Carolina today would be covered up in pig
manure. But I call it the biannual flush. And
here comes the big hurricane, dumps 15 inches
of rain, and you get all this flooding and flushing,
and everything gets... You know, flushed out
to sea, you have some massive fish kills. That's
part of the collateral damage, and we're good
to go for another cycle. And so this is what
happens with today's ability to concentrate like
we've never been able to do before. Have humans
damaged our environment in the past? Absolutely.
Throughout history, we've damaged our past. But
we've been limited by simple logistics and transportation.
You can't destroy but so much acreage when you're
walking with a sharp stick behind an ox. A person
can only touch so much land. But if you're driving
a 600 -horsepower, eight -wheel drive articulated
tractor pulling up a 15 -bottom plow, you can...
You can touch a lot of land in a hurry, and that's
the difference. The scale of our ability to exercise
our dominance and control on our womb, on the
nest, is simply unprecedented today, and that's
one reason why we're seeing a proliferation of
this lexicon. I want to get to your new book.
I've just got one more area because you kind
of really opened that door for a second. We always
hear about the rainforest being destroyed and
that being related to raising cattle. What's
the truth behind that? And again, how can local
farming even combat the environmental element?
Well, yes, a lot of it is being destroyed. I'll
just say, The problem is in domestic livestock,
and certainly cattle are the king of that, in
domestic livestock worldwide, we are not mimicking
the natural choreography of herbivorous herds
throughout the planet. And when you study the
way these large herds have worked in the past,
and, by the way, develop the deepest soils on
the planet, they have moved from place to place.
They move regarding the rainy season. Predators
push them. Flies push them. Their own bellies
push them to new ground. And so there's a constant
undulation movement pattern across the prairies,
across the Serengeti, across the tundra. That's
the way nature moves. But with domestic livestock,
we've moved into a sedentary situation where
we fence and we leave the animals in one place,
which then means they overgraze. There's not
a forage rest period, which means the forage
isn't ever able to get into its fast kind of
juvenile growth curve, which means it's stunted.
And then we don't get the solar conversion into
biomass that can decompose. So on our farm, we
move the cows every day to a new paddock, which
means that, you know, each paddock can rest before
they come back. Now the cows might be on a given
paddock, oh, you know, four to six times in a
season, but those are only four to six days in
a given spot throughout the season. And so we
use high -tech electric fencing. to be able to
give us a steering wheel, a brake, and an accelerator
on that four -legged pruning, that four -legged
pruner, to be able to move across the landscape
with the animals at the same precision level
as a zero -turn mower on a golf course. That's
never been done. That's never been possible in
human history. So what this does is allow us
to mimic. So this is biomimicry. of the movement
of the animals across the landscape. And all
we're trying to do is, on a domestic scale, mimic
what we see nature doing on a wild scale. And
if everyone did that, the production increase
would be unbelievable. In Augusta County, where
we live... The average cow days per acre, a cow
day is what one cow will eat in a day. So if
we took all the food that you eat today and put
it on your plate, that would be one person day
of food. So what one cow will eat in a day is
one cow day. So in Augusta County, where we live,
the average is 80 cow days per acre. So an acre
will support 80 cows for one day a year or one
cow for 80 days a year. The average is 80, and
we average. So we don't have a resource problem.
We don't have a cow problem. We don't have a
population problem. We don't have a food problem.
What we have is a management problem. And if
we could get the management right, then everything
else would fall into place. fooding that they
featured you or if it was forks over knives but
you know where they're showing that and and you
are you know your cows are followed by the pigs
and the pigs are followed by the chicken and
even the the length of the grass that your cows
are eating this very long mature grass versus
the very short one that you normally see in pastures
you could just i mean it just made perfect sense
like you're sending several species through each
one is laying there their compost down, and so
therefore nourishing the actual land. And when
they keep going back, it builds and builds and
builds. So just from a complete non -farming
common sense point of view, it makes perfect
sense. Sure. Sure, that's right. But you see,
you don't feel threatened or have to de -learn
anything. That's true. Well, that is a great
segue then to the book. So I think hopefully...
There will be some lessons learned from this.
My biggest fear of this whole pandemic is that
people go back to doing exactly the same thing
they did before, which would be the real tragedy
because even the deaths won't be honored by some
sort of learning. But your new book, Beyond Labels,
I think is a great opportunity for people to
understand what's in some of the foods that are
sitting on the shelves at the moment. So tell
me about why you wrote that and then how people
can find it. Sure. Well, so I hooked up with
this Ph .D. biochemist, Sina McCullough, who
had her own brush with death. She was actually
planning her funeral as a 30, whatever, 32 -year
-old, and had all sorts of debilitating illnesses
and immunodeficiency. by eating the standard
American diet. We call that SAD, standard American
diet. And so she, you know, she had her epiphany
one day when she said, okay, I've got to, I can't
blame the doctor. I can't blame the food. I can't
blame, you know, I've got to do this myself.
And so she started using her PhD biochemistry
background to research food. and started to change
her diet, change her life, and today she's a
vibrant, whatever, 38, 39 -year -old, I call
her an energizer, bunny. We did a conference
together a couple of years ago, met for the first
time. The two of us were the two speakers. I
was completely taken and enamored by what she
said. And she enjoyed what I said, and she just
came up to me at the end and said, let's do a
book together. And to my knowledge, a book pairing
a farmer with a Ph .D. biochemist has never been
done before. And maintaining our own dialogue,
so the book, although we've co -authored it,
we've maintained our separate... personas throughout
the book, so it reads like a play, like a dialogue,
like you're sitting in an audience and you're
watching two people just talk back and forth.
In fact, numerous people who have now reviewed
it and read it thought that we actually sat down
and had a conversation and then transcribed it
for the book. That's not the way we wrote it.
We actually did a lot of emails back and forth,
and as we kind of got into the rhythm, we were
able to to play on each other. We learned more
about each other, and we're able to play on it.
So the whole idea of the book is a continuum
to take you from wherever you are. Right now,
if you're eating most of your food from the gas
station and you want to go to a better place,
this does not talk down, judge, or speak with
prejudice against what you're doing. It simply
is to take you by the hand, coach you, and challenge,
yes. and encourage you to move to another level.
So the chapters are all titled Practical Bites.
There's, I don't know what, 60 Practical Bites,
and they're all written in things that, you know,
something that you can do today, and you just
add these at your pace. If it takes two months,
fine. If it takes three years, fine. Ten years,
fine. That's fine. And you may never get to the
end. I mean, Sina and I both realize, neither
of us. actually does all of the whatever, the
paradise things that we get to right at the end
of the book. But we went ahead and put in kind
of our paradise thinking just so that all of
us, including us, could be pushed and encouraged
to move to a better place in our lives. And so
the book is full of... how to build immune system,
how to save time in the kitchen, how to source,
how to find, how to cut through the whole thing
beyond labels. If you're dependent on labels
for food buying, you're probably pretty disconnected
from your food. And so we punch through some
of the clever speak and the way the FDA allows
things to be labeled, like generally accepted
as safe, G -R -A -S. That's a big sleeping giant
in the labeling. And we pull that aside and lead
you non -prejudicially through a continuum to
a place of understanding so you can make better
decisions on your own food providence. That's
what we're trying to do. We're trying to get
you to a better place, a better decision -making
place. so that you can feel confident and comfortable
with your own decisions and you're not just dependent
on phraseology and clever labels that almost
never speak honestly about what's actually contained.
Yeah, I think that's so important. And you hit
on a very good point about just starting today.
I think people see some people at the moment
wearing a mask in their own car and people kind
of like, ridicule them but people got to understand
the environment they're in if you get your information
for example from fox news and cnn you're not
you're going to have a very skew perspective
i was raised with now realizing all the wrong
nutritional advice all the wrong you know weight
training advice too you know everything was around
the bodybuilding machines and i became a fireman
that didn't serve me well either but forgiving
yourself where you are today saying, all right,
you got me, you know, advertising people or,
you know, whatever, whatever industry kind of
led you that way. But today is when you start
educating and the more education that you have,
the more power you're going to realize you have
over your own health, over, you know, everything
around you. And then if that happens in all the
households down the street and all the towns
in the county and then exponentially to the country,
we're literally going to change the way, you
know, our country's health looks within 10 years.
Yes, yes. And in true kind of libertarian fashion,
this book does not ask for additional government
oversight. It doesn't ask for subsidies. It doesn't
ask for agencies, tax incentives, or anything
else. It's all about us individually. Here's
what we can do right now, today, and walk steadily
and make progress into a different... health
future for ourselves. That's what we're after.
We're after a time when you wake up in the morning
and you're not thinking about health issues because
you're vibrant, you're full of life, and you
wake up in the morning ready to get at it and
you're not dwelling on your own whatever health
limitations. That's a place of optimum health.
Absolutely. And I agree with you 100%. I mean,
the environment should be there for people to
thrive, but the way we start that, clearly having
seen the last several decades, whether it's our
food, whether it's drug policy, whatever it is,
when you look back and realize that that system's
failed, then you have to be part of the problem.
I mean, excuse me, part of the solution, not
part of the problem. Yes, yes. All right. Well,
then some closing questions I didn't get to ask
you last time because I kind of added them later
on in the podcast. We talked about your book.
Obviously, you've got several others as well.
And we're going to get to where they can find
that in a moment. Are there any books that other
people have written that you love to recommend?
It can be related to what we've discussed or
something completely different. Well, there's
a new one just out that I'm pushing when I have
a chance called Sacred Cow. It's just being launched
literally this week. by Rob Wolf, the founder
of Paleo, and it's a co -authored book also.
Diana Rogers, who's a dietician, podcaster of
the podcast Sustainable Dish, and Sacred Cow,
and they take on the four basic arguments against
eating meat, especially beef. And so it's a great
companion now to, this is the kind of book that
I use as a companion, and get, you know, hardcore
information out of, you know, nutrient analysis
and things to, you know, to help people eat a
more, well, to help people realize that veganism
is not the solution to health issues. And we
have many customers. We have thousands of customers,
and we deal routinely with folks who went through
the vegan fad and their health suffered and deteriorated.
And there are a few people, very few, who actually
thrive on an almost meatless diet, but there
are not very many. Most people over time. will
deteriorate in their health. And so Sacred Cow
has been a great friend here. I'm glad they've
written it. Yeah, I'm going to have to reach
out to a mutual friend of Rob's because we've
been trying to get him on for a little while,
but if he's got a new book, that's a good time.
He actually was an EMT back in the day as well.
Yes, that's right. But it's interesting, just
touching on the vegan thing for a moment. I went
plant -based for about six months. I've really
noticed some great benefits. But then towards
that, I think what they call the vegan honeymoon,
you know, did notice a kind of decline in my
what seemed like energy. So kind of transitioned
to putting some meat on. But I've had James Wilkes
that did the Game Changers on. I've had, you
know, the whole gamut of dietary philosophers,
if you like. And to me, the middle ground is
the clean. vegetables and then you know and or
the clean meat so it's funny with some conversations
these two sides like you know want to murder
each other but you know the lesson learned is
like you said there are people that do thrive
on veganism and good for them and there are seemingly
people that thrive on on carnivore diet which
i find very intriguing as well but the majority
of us with with clean holistically raised meat
and clean vegetables and fruit are going to thrive.
And I think that's the conversation that gets
missed on the two extremes slinging arrows at
each other. Yes, I couldn't agree more. And part
of the Beyond Labels book that Tina and I wrote
were ways to listen to your body. I mean, we
don't trust ourselves anymore. We've been so
expertized in our culture and kind of almost...
almost, what's the word? You can't fix your refrigerator.
You can't fix your television. You can't fix
your car. And we've kind of been unmoored from
our ability to take care of ourselves. And so
you ask the expert. And investing is too hard,
so you have an investment advisor. And so we
assume that... I can't know anything. What do
I know? I'm not a doctor. I'm not a nutritionist.
I'm not a dietician. And the fact is that we
live in our skin. We live with ourselves. We
see what our poop looks like. We feel what the
urine looks like. We actually live in this. And
so making our daily observations, we know the
aches and the pains and whether we have a bloated
feeling or whether our... whether we feel bouncy
or lethargic. And so experiment. That's the whole
point is be willing to step out there and experiment
some. But don't join a cult. Don't jump off on
a fad. Do some experiments. Keep some mental
notes. And you'll gradually find you're exactly
right. Some people thrive on... A meatless thing,
not very many. And you're right, I'm completely
intrigued by the whole carnivore thing. As a
livestock farmer, that really intrigues me. And
then some people, they get completely off of
grains. But then again, you go to a place that
does old heritage Egyptian -type grains and heavy
breads in those areas, and it's a whole different...
a whole different context and a different situation
than, for example, American short -stemmed grains.
That's another discussion. But anyway, listen
to yourself, wherever you are, listen to yourself,
and you'll be surprised what you might learn.
I couldn't agree more. All right, well then,
another question. Is there a movie or documentary
that you love? Movie or documentary? You know,
I... I don't watch very many documentaries. I
guess one of my favorites is still Fresh. And
it came out the same year that Food, Inc. came
out. But Fresh is as positive as Food, Inc. is
shockingly negative. And I don't like Food, Inc.
It was a shocker. But the documentary Fresh had
a much more positive message. And you left out
with saying, yes, we can do this. It was very
empowering and encouraging. Just one word, fresh.
And it's a good one. Brilliant. And I saw on
the website, I don't know how I missed this,
but Polyface has a documentary. Is that right?
We didn't do it. it. It was done by a couple
from Australia. Yes, it's called Polyfaces. And
it was done by an Australian couple. And yes,
if you want to see more of the farm here and
what we do in our life, that's a good one. Brilliant.
All right. The next question, is there a person
that you'd recommend to come on this podcast
as a guest to speak to the first responders,
medical community, and military of the world?
The first responder community. I'm just blank
right now. I have to pass on that. That was kind
of a... No problem. It was a new one. I wasn't
quite prepared for that one. I apologize. While
you're thinking about it, your co -author of
Beyond Labels might actually be a good guess
as well. Someone who literally dragged themselves
out. Why am I silly on that? Yes, absolutely.
She would be fantastic. Sina McCullough, she's
a very vibrant interviewer. And she would be
able to speak to that extremely well, yes. Brilliant.
All right. So then one more question before we
make sure everyone knows where to find you online.
What do you do to decompress? Decompress? Well,
my recreation is reading just a good book, whether
it's fiction or not. I don't read a lot of fiction,
mainly nonfiction. But to decompress, just reading
something, just enjoying. what somebody else's
thoughts, instead of having to answer questions
and make up my own, is the way I decompress.
Brilliant. Well, actually, two days ago, I sent
a book I've just written, my very first book,
to an editor, and I actually quote you in there.
I think it's, you think food is expensive. Have
you priced cancer lately? I think that was the
quote I used. But I want to send you a copy of
that when it's finally out. Yes, I'll look forward
to that. Yes, I read voraciously. Fantastic.
Let's hope this will probably be a little different
than what you've read. It's kind of like behind
the curtain of what we see, so a different perspective.
All right, so the very last question, if people
want to reach out to you, if they want to buy
the books, if they want to visit the farm and
actually buy some of your food, how do they find
you online? So the website is Polyface Farms,
P -O -L -Y -F -A -C -E. In fact, if you Google
it, once you get to about P -O -L -Y, the rest
of it will pop up, Polyface Farms. And we have
a very active website, gift shop. You can buy
food. T -shirts that say things like, everything
I want to do is illegal. And you can see where
I am speaking, get linked up to news articles,
things like that, and see pictures of the farm,
all those kind of things. So, yeah, the website
is polyfacefarms .com. And I'd love to have you
check it out. There's a lot of material information
there. And we do ship nationwide, so anybody
that wants to try something, just order it right
there online, and we ship every week and be glad
to serve you. Excellent. Well, again, Joel, I
want to say thank you so much. Four years ago,
I said I'm going to come up and visit soon. I
still haven't yet. I haven't made it up to the
Northeast at all. But it's absolutely it was
actually my plan this this summer before before
this craziness happened. But I hopefully I'll
maybe even get to give you the book face to face.
But I appreciate you taking the time once again.
And your perspective is invaluable anytime, but
especially now. So I hope people have gleaned.
you know, the preventative element of this whole
situation we've been through. Yes. Thank you
very much for having me on. I look forward to
the next time and do please come and visit when
you can. Love to have you.