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with Joel Totoro and Wes Barnett. Welcome to
the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my
name is James Gearing and this week it is my
absolute honor to welcome on the show the fire
chief of Oklahoma City Fire Department, who was
also one of the responders to the Alfred Murrow
Federal Building bombing. Richard Kelly. Now,
in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics
from his own journey into the fire service, the
response and rescue operations of the bombing,
the ripple effect of that event, fitness standards,
recruitment, work weeks, mentorship, and so much
more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment,
go to whichever app you listen to this on. subscribe
to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in return
is that you help share these incredible men and
women's stories so I can get them to every single
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So that being said, I introduce to you Chief
Richard Kelly. Enjoy. Well, Richard, I want to
start by saying two things. Firstly, thank you
to our mutual friend, John Brunicini, who was
on the show recently for making this connection.
There was someone else, and I apologize if you
– I know they're listening now. Someone else
had actually also recommended that we connect,
and I totally forgot who it was now. So if you're
listening and you also made this connection,
I apologize, but thank you to you as well. And
I want to welcome you onto the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Yes. Excited to be here. Thanks
for the opportunity. And a big shout out to John.
John's a big fan. Big fan of John. He does outstanding
work. Absolutely. It was an amazing conversation.
All right. Well, very first question. Where on
planet Earth are we finding you this afternoon?
I'm in Oklahoma City. You know, it's interesting.
I was born and raised in this area, so I'm sitting
right smack dab in the middle of Oklahoma City,
excited after game two of the NBA finals where
the Oklahoma City Thunder finally got a victory.
So we're sitting one on one in the NBA finals
and loving every minute of it. Brilliant. Well,
you mentioned about growing up there. Let's start
at the very beginning of your story then. So
tell me where you were born and tell me a little
bit about your family dynamic, what your parents
did, how many siblings. Pretty interesting. I
was born in Oklahoma City. I was actually, I've
never met my parents, so I was adopted at three
days old by whom I know as my parents. My mom
and dad. were from this area. They adopted me,
as I said, at three days old, only child. So
I had a really good upbringing, not a lot of
money, which that we all know that's not important
in life, but enough to sustain. But my dad worked
at FAA. My mom worked at Quite a bit in nursing
homes. She actually got injured at home and wasn't
able to work there as much, but she worked in
a nursing home. Loving family. Played a lot of
sports growing up. Was not a great athlete, but
I loved the game. Played baseball, football,
basketball. I played basketball in my 40s, and
unfortunately I got hurt. I was in over 40 league,
probably should have realized that that was telling
you you're too old to play. But, you know, family
dynamics were really good. Big extended family,
but, you know, again, only child. Went to high
school at Moore, Moore, Oklahoma, which is a
suburb of Oklahoma City. Graduated there, started
going to college at a small college here in the...
metro area of Oklahoma City. Didn't really know
what I wanted to do. I got lucky to get out of
high school, quite frankly. Thought I would go
the business route. Had an uncle that was a very
good businessman. Started going to school, really
didn't know my way. Thought I was going to be
an accountant. I was trying to do something on
the business side and had a buddy that actually
was testing for the fire department and ran into
him one day on 12th Street, which is an area
we used to cruise up and down, wasting a lot
of gas, doing a lot of crazy stuff. And he was
testing for the fire department and he started
talking about it. And it was like it hit me.
It's like to me, you know, I have a religious
background. It's to me a God thing and felt like
that where I was called to be and started testing
at the time. In 1989, we had three firefighters
that were killed in Oklahoma City in a flashover
fire. After that, they passed a sales tax, which
was to hire 200 additional firefighters. And
so that kind of created a hiring boom in this
area. It was also pretty close to about 25 years
since they had. introduced the third platoon
system in Oklahoma City. And so it was really
at a time of a lot of turnover, a lot of hiring.
So I was testing all throughout the metropolitan
area. It was about the time backdraft came out.
So that increased a lot of people that wanted
to be firefighters. And so I had actually tested
in the metro, tested all around. I actually was
applying at Phoenix, Dallas, Denver. when I got
hired in this area, I just want to be a firefighter,
really a big city firefighter. So I know I went
from dynamics of family and to, to my fire experience,
but that's kind of my family background, my experience
trying to get in the fire service, all wrapped
into one. I'm going to go all the way back. There's
lots of things I want to ask about other things
that you've said, but with people that be on
the show that have been adopted, that have been
fostered, I mean, through some of those systems,
there's a spectrum of different stories and experiences.
What was your kind of journey as far as the curiosity
of finding biological parents, especially with
this whole DNA thing that's become more popular
recently versus, you know, the man and the woman
that actually raised you as your parents? I appreciate
you asking. You know, everybody has. I've had
friends that's gone through some challenges with
being adopted. And, you know, I my parents told
me as far back as I can remember, I was adopted.
So I've known my whole life. Matter of fact,
I would brag about it. You know, they'd always
say, we chose you. You know, other parents, they're
stuck with their kids. We chose you. So I was
fortunate. You know, my parents were loving parents.
My wife says I grew up in the leave it to beaver
household. Really, it was a good upbringing.
So I didn't have any challenges. My A score is
not high. You know, that adverse childhood experience.
I have a very low A score. So in that area. So
it was it was a very good background. You know,
and you asked about I've asked. I have three
children of my biological three. wonderful girls.
And, you know, they had more interest in that
just because you said of what is your history,
your background. So I had an opportunity. I actually
have a picture of my dad, my biological dad,
my phone. He has passed away. But, you know,
it's interesting. There's a lot of genealogy
out there. I did the 23andMe. to find you know
some of that background because you're always
my biggest concern was the health of my kids
how could it affect them so i did some testing
in that area but i've never really had that burning
desire to find my biological parents i i have
probably somewhat of an interest because i was
told i had siblings you know i would love to
see What do they look like? That's kind of interesting.
But for me, I'm pretty blessed that I never had
that burning desire to do that. And that was
probably because I was fortunate. I was adopted
from birth. They took me home in three days.
My family accepted me as my own. Matter of fact,
I have people all the time that say, my dad's
passed on. A lot of people say you have a lot
of mannerisms like your dad. And it was interesting.
He was, you know, nature versus nurture. But
he was not, you know, not blood. But you probably
would have thought he was if you'd have been
around. So I'm very blessed in that. Nothing
bad. And I know everyone has different experiences,
different challenges. I was just fortunate that
mine was all blessed. That's so great to hear.
And I want to get to the ACE score in a little
while because that will factor in, I'm sure,
with some of the trauma that you've had in your
career. Yes, sir. But when I think back, one
of the bad examples of finding biological parents
was Kevin Berthia, who, if you've ever seen that
iconic picture of a man on the Golden Gate Bridge
with his back to, you know, the drop, and then
there's a CHP officer talking to him, that's
Kevin Briggs and Kevin Berthia. Kevin was adopted,
found his biological parents, and, you know,
they weren't. At that point, you know, nice people,
they didn't seem to take an interest. And so
all his kind of the story he told himself what
it was going to be like to find his real parents,
you know, were kind of debunked and it was very
sad. But then I've had a couple of guys or seen
a couple of stories. One of them came on the
show where a someone had found a sibling, like
you said. He was a police officer and the sibling
raised him in a completely different environment,
also became a police officer. And this happened
twice, two different stories. So it is interesting.
But like you said, it can send you in a number
of ways, you know, either either positive or
negative, sadly. I just for me, it was never
that burning desire. So, again, I know for others
it's different, but I was pretty blessed in that
area. Did you have any firefighters or first
responders in your family or extended family?
So my uncle and my family I was raised in, I
had an uncle that was a volunteer firefighter.
And I remember going and watching some of the
training. So that was very interesting. My grandfather
built a fire station. He was a mason. So he built
one of the fire stations. So, you know, kind
of a little bit in that area, but no one really
I was extremely close to. My uncle I was pretty
close with, but he was a volunteer. just being
around that a little bit, but not one of those.
I grew up down the street from a fire station.
So I remember that fire station, always seeing
them go out and, you know, just being around
it, but never really, you know, in it every day.
The 1989 Iron Duty death with this 2025 lens
that you have now, when you reflect back, obviously
hearing a lot of it through history. What, if
any, were the preventable elements that resulted
in those deaths that today hopefully wouldn't
happen again? Well, it's pretty. I really try
to tell that story a lot. I'm a firm believer.
It not only changed the face of our organization,
it changed the face of our city. Being the fire
chief, I'm fortunate I actually have the investigation,
the review of that. I went back and actually
reviewed that. You know, it's interesting because
a lot was hand drawn in the areas they were located
at. It was typed up. But I actually have done
when we did the 25 year anniversary of it. I'm
sorry, the 30 year anniversary of it. I actually
talked about it and actually did a. a Teams chat
with the entire department and went over it because
I think it's important to know the history of
our fire department, where we are today. You
know, these three firefighters really, I believe,
you know, their ultimate sacrifice changed our
organization. But, you know, a lot of the things
have changed. You brought up what? How could
we keep it from happening today? Well, some of
it was just the sheer of their PPE. At the time,
we were wearing three -quarter length coats,
the pull -up pant, the boots that they wore,
day boots, if you will. They had an old low -pressure
hose for their SCBA. You know, and some of their
tactics. They were a very aggressive organization.
Matter of fact, it happened at two of our busiest
fire stations. And two of the firefighters that
died were captains. Captain Jimmy Ayers and Captain
Benny Zellner and firefighter Jeffrey Lindsey.
And I'll tell you, I heard a lot of stories about
the two officers. One of them was on Squad 21,
which is the busiest apparatus in our city. At
the time, we only had five squads, and we got
a squad on every structure fire. So they were
seasoned firefighters. The captain that was on
engine eight was Benny Zellner, and everybody
spoke highly of him, how aggressive firefighter
he was, a salty firefighter. And then Jeffrey
Lindsey was a two -and -a -half, three -year
firefighter. But he was a legacy firefighter.
His dad was on the job, was a captain, and his
brother was on the job. And unfortunately, they
made that incident. So it was very tough. But
when you look at that, what happened after that,
our city for years, unfortunately, had not passed
any sales tax, had not passed geo bonds that
we ran. All of these initiatives to improve the
city failed. At the time, there wasn't a lot
of... belief in city government. We had had,
we were, uh, we're always been a big oil city
at the time. We had had some challenges with
the oil, you know, oil can be up or down at the
time it was down. So there's a lot of funding
challenges in the city. We had actually a bank
that went bankrupt and we, when those things
start happening, it's pretty challenging. So
people would, were not very, didn't have a lot
of belief in the city. Right prior to this happening,
they had ran an initiative to improve public
safety. But on that, it wasn't just dedicated
to public safety. It was other areas, and they
didn't feel comfortable with it, so they didn't
pass the initiative. Unfortunately, these three
firefighters died, and then a petition from leaders
within the community, our local, our union, our
FOP, got together and they re -ran it, and it
passed. And after that, that passed. It changed
the entire complexity of complexion of the organization,
the city. And then after subsequently after that,
we passed what's called a map sales tax where
we built a new arena. We built a new ballpark.
We started seeing these things generate and happen
with our city. And then ultimately they passed
this three additional times. We're on the fourth
version. where we built a new arena that got
the thunder here. Now we're moving forward with
a new type petition to build another arena. I
believe the catalyst that I always talk about
to our firefighters was the change in our city,
not just our fire department, our police department,
was those three firefighters dying, but the complete
change in our city was based off that catalyst
as well. Unfortunate they paid the ultimate sacrifice,
but... I'm very proud that they did not die in
vain, that we were able to make changes. I would
go back and change it a minute to keep those
three firefighters alive. But unfortunately,
that didn't happen. And something good, positive
came from that. So we've been able to make a
lot of changes and we studied that. I believe
because of that, we've become a better organization.
And speaking to that also, when you have those
unfortunate events at the time. We knew that
a lot of our firefighters were Vietnam -era firefighters,
or at least our leadership was. So there wasn't
a lot of understanding fully of PTSD and all
of those challenges. But we did recognize through
that incident we need to bring in some CISM.
Back then they called it CISD, critical incident
stress debriefing. So we were able to bring in
a group out of Louisiana. And they came up here
and taught us CISD. So out of that, we built
our first critical incident stress debriefing
team that was a huge factor in play in our bombing
to help our firefighters when we went through
that traumatic event. And so unfortunately, that
happened. It not only changed the face of our
city and organization, it helped us to be prepared
for what came at a later date. You mentioned
as well that the generation aged out that were
hired for the third platoon. Well, now as I sit
here in Florida, there's a revolution happening
of a fourth platoon. Yes, sir. What was it, if
you even are aware of this, that even invoked
the conversation of a third platoon all those
years ago? I'm a traditionalist. I like looking
at those things. You know, there's not really
a lot of data. I had my first officer when I
came on the job. was hired. He was the third
platoon guy that got hired. And actually, subsequently,
his son was my ride out when I was a battalion
chief. So we became very close. There wasn't
a really a lot of I think it was just traction
of where things were moving. You know, there
was a lot of Back then, you worked 15 days on,
15 days off, you know, in a month. You know,
it was a one -on, one -off, one -on, one -off.
It was very taxing. I think as, you know, we
were becoming, you know, the call volumes were
starting to creep up. I think we were moving
more into, we've always been involved in emergency
medical response. So we were involved in that
area, that era of response. There was some of
that evolving, but I haven't been able to say
this is the exact reason, but I know that was
talked about of some of the reasoning to move
in that direction for that third platoon. I don't
think they understood work -life balance back
then, but a lot of that was probably to allow
more time off so they weren't challenged so much
in that era. Yeah, it's interesting because as
we sit here and have this conversation now, You
talk about the lack of support through financial
decisions of cities and counties factoring into
the ability to staff. We talk about now, again,
workload. And if you look at the increase in
workload over the last 10 years, I mean, it's
a huge spike now. And so it's so interesting
talking to you because you've got this lens on
not only an organization that moved from two
to three platoons, but also. The tragic events
that can happen if you don't support the areas
around a fire department, which ends up with
firefighter funerals. Yes, and unfortunately,
history shows that we learn through tragedy.
Unfortunately, you see a lot of NFPA standards.
You see a lot of Department of Labor OSHA guidelines
because of tragedy. Unfortunately, some of those
are what cause changed. And I appreciate, you
know, I've been reading a lot as well about going
to the four platoon. I know it works. I know
there's a lot of it, but you hit the nail on
the head. It's a tough area. I think smaller
organizations can maybe figure it out sooner
than large metropolitans just because of the
masses of people. But hopefully in the future
that we'll see that there are some. talk and
discussions and moving in that direction. It
just, you know, it's just about funding, unfortunately.
Now, we're very well funded, if you will, because
of the sales tax. Again, game changer for us,
but there are still limitations, unfortunately.
And we're a growing city. We're in the process
of trying to expand our organization to cover.
We have about 710 ,000 residents, but we... have
about 621 square miles, not about, we do cover
621 square miles, which actually goes into four
counties in our area. So we're very, we're not
a densely populated city, but it's a very large
city to cover. What is your contrast between
the competitive nature that you entered back
in 91 versus what you're seeing today in 2025?
I wish we had the numbers. I've spoken to several
organizations that they're begging people to
come be firefighters. We still have a good number.
We're probably about 50%, honestly. We used to
open up an application process, and we'd probably
average about 1 ,500 applicants. We do an application
process now where we're anywhere from 800 to
1 ,000. I'm very proud of our hiring process.
And what I mean by that is there are some organizations
that I fully understand it that require someone
to have their firefighter credentials to be a
paramedic and all of that. Ours is pretty basic,
18 years old, high school diploma. I would probably
like to see that age maybe up a little bit, but
the reality. What I love, the fact of we hire
the best candidates and train them. And so you
don't, you're not losing that. 25 -year -old
or 28 -year -old that has a family that has a
profession but has a desire to move into a new
space that can't go get their firefighter one
and two or can't go get their paramedic. It is
a little bit for us to bring them to that level.
But what I've seen is we hire people to our values
within our organization, and then we provide
the training so we're able to meet that. And
it's really kept our numbers up. And it allows
us to really recruit to our community and what
we look like and how we feel that. So I never,
it's funny, I think we all know this as organizations,
we always look at other departments and say,
I can't believe they do that. That's crazy. And
there are obviously best practices. But I think
what you have to do is identify for your community,
what's the best practice? Because I've seen some
out. outstanding projects and programs that people
do that wouldn't work in our community. But we
can take and learn from that, maybe adjust it
and build a little bit and make it work for our
community. And I think that's what we have to
learn within hiring because there are some organizations
that couldn't do it. They've got to have trained
people to come on board. We're fortunate enough.
We run a very robust academy. We spend a lot
of dollars sending people to paramedic school.
We allow them to go once they get their year
on. And we were fortunate. Last year, we had
41 of our firefighters in paramedic school. Because
we really pushed that, it's become part of our
culture. And we're able to accomplish it without
requiring that of someone coming on with that
training. So we're fortunate in that area. So
the numbers are not where they used to be, but
I would say that we still get the quality candidates.
And I know that's challenging in some areas.
You mentioned about the age. This has been an
interesting conversation recently because a lot
of the people I talk to in the kind of neuroscience
and mental health space talk about the development
of the brain and suggest that maybe closer to
PD, 21 would probably be a better age for the
fire service. And I would argue that of all the
occupations out there, a firefighter, EMT slash
paramedic probably sees more horrible stuff than
almost any other profession. So when you talk
about the age, what is your perception on that?
I agree. I will tell you, and this doesn't always
equate. A lot of our younger firefighters are
legacy firefighters. What I mean is they've grown
up around it. Now, just because you've grown
up around it doesn't always mean that that equates
to you are going to be able to deal with this
trauma that you're faced. But I do believe that
you come into that with the understanding of
what's there. But it's still I. It's not something
I pushed hard on because we don't see very many
that we hire that young. And quite frankly, those
that we have hired at that have been able to
be very successful. But I do also agree. I think
there is a part of that. You hit the nail on
the head. Science is science. And I think some
of that is. At 18, they're not fully developed.
And there are some areas of that that could stunt
that or the challenge to deal with the trauma.
And so there's a lot of that. I think we have
to, you know, we're able to, we used to do a
lot of things on feel and what we thought. And
now we can do it through studies and reasoning
and really be able to make educated decisions.
And I think that's, I'm really proud of. the
fire service that we're moving in that direction.
We're partnering with OU right now doing some
studies with Bunker Gear. We've got a graduate
assistant that's coming on from OSU that we're
actually contracting with that's going to be
some of our strength and conditioning and other
areas working with our athletic trainer. So I'm
proud of that, that we're using that education
piece to really grow, but we still have a long
ways to go. Well, going back to your journey
into the fire service, obviously there was a
very significant event. Pretty early on. But
prior to that, talk to me about your on -ramp
experience and any kind of notable calls at that
point. Now, are you saying about my experience
coming into the job? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Just those first few years prior to 95. So it's
interesting. My daughter, I use this because
she and I were so much alike. My oldest daughter
is a nurse. I use example when she I really didn't
know how she was one of those that if a kid was
eating food at school and she could see the food,
she would get sick at school. And she had a lot
of anxiety in different spaces. But she became
a nurse and she as she was going through the
process like. wiping someone's rear and doing
stuff like that. She like jumped in and said,
I'm doing it because I want to know that I can
do the job and keep, I was kind of that way.
So it's funny. I use that example because. When
I looked at something for me, when it was work,
it was a challenge, I just jumped in and did
it. There was no doubt about it. And I think
that's what you have to do. And that's how I
was as a firefighter. If there was something
that bothered me or something I was apprehensive
of, I leaned into it. I would make sure that
I would jump in and do it. And I was that way
as a firefighter. So anything that I was apprehensive
about, I leaned into it and pushed that much
harder. My first couple years after I... um decided
i want to be a firefighter kind of talked about
that moving in that space It was like everything
about me was about the fire service. I was going
to a small college here in the metro. I moved
to OSU, OKC, which was a technology school, and
they had a fire program. So I was doing my fire
associates and municipal fire protection. I took
the first EMT program they had there. I didn't
even really know what it was. They came out this
class. It was in 1989, 1990. And they said, hey,
this is an EMT program. I went to the... The
person that was over the program, I said, will
this help me be a firefighter? They said, it
definitely can't hurt you. That's where we're
going. So I took the very first EMT class they
had. So the way I was as a firefighter, I was
all in. Everything that I wanted to do was about
the fire department. And, you know, when I got
the opportunity in recruit school, everything
about. me was a firefighter everything my focus
probably to a detriment honestly with some relationships
and how I did things because everything revolved
around the fire department and I think that's
a challenge sometimes it took me years to undo
some of that and some bad relationships and part
of that I own was the because I was so focused
in that area but You know, back then we really
didn't talk about trauma and the things that
we've seen. And I still remember my first full
arrest was an infant. I still remember working
that infant in the back of the ambulance. And
it was right by a hospital. I remember the street
we turned down and everything. But those are
areas back then you you just it was part of me
doing the job. So I just did it. There wasn't
things that I thought about. And I was fortunate.
whether it be because of the way I was built,
that I didn't have any adverse effects of that.
You know, obviously, as we went down later down
the road, I'm not afraid to admit that I've had
some things that have bothered me and I've sought
counseling and I'm trying to do things in a positive
way. to really move forward but my first couple
years I was all in I was all about the fire department
I went to training on my days off you know back
then firefighters worked a day off job that was
just kind of the norm especially in our organization
when they hired you they'd say okay what do you
do they wanted to know what was your trade off
the job I had no trades but I tried about everything
I roofed houses mowed yards I framed I've done
it all but At the end, I finally came back. I
want to do something on my days off that helps
me as a firefighter. But those first two years
I did, you know, focus all in everything about
the job. So walk me through April 19th, 1995.
So it's interesting. I was in the northeast side
of town, had about three and a half years on
the job. I've done a lot of rescue training.
I wrote a squad. Back then we had six squads,
squads in our city. Basically, they responded
on every car wreck, every structure fire got
a squad, and they made all the first in medical
calls in that district. So it was a pretty active,
at the time for us, apparatus. So I'd done a
lot of, I'd done all my ropes training, confined
space, extrication. I taught extrication a lot.
I did a lot of that, vehicle extrication. So
I was, you know, what I thought I knew, I was
in the rescue world. Um, but, um, that happened.
So April 19th, 1995, I was married at the time,
uh, to my first wife. Um, and I, I don't have
a bunch as I've just been married since then
one time, but, um, I had my, my daughter was
born. I actually was going to paramedics. I'd
gone to back then you did MT basic intermediate
paramedic. I. finished my intermediate class,
and then my daughter was born May 27, 1994. So
I took some time off, had a new daughter. I was
planning on going back to paramedic school. It
was almost a year later, I was looking at that
fall to go back to paramedic school. April 19,
1995, I was off duty that day. Happened on a
red shift day. I was a blue shifter, a B shifter.
We lived about... 40 minutes, probably southwest
of the city. My dad grew up on a piece of land
out in what's called Bridge Creek. I had a house
out there, staying there. And it was a, I look
outside here today, you know, very sunny, nice.
You know, April day in Oklahoma, it can rain
or be nice. You know, it's kind of variable in
that area. But that day, I remember I was watching
TV, got up that morning, day off. I was on my
four day. And I heard something. I thought it
was thunder in Oklahoma, you know, in April.
Thunder's normal. But I opened the door and it
was sunny, you know, beautiful spring day. Shut
the door. Didn't really think nothing of it.
Sat down. Regis and Kathy was on TV back then.
They were real big. And Channel 9, I still remember
it pops up and they say, hey. Something's happened
downtown Oklahoma City. We think they've had
maybe a natural gas explosion. We've got a helicopter
en route. You can see the helicopter. And the
helicopter flew and panned around to the front
of the building. And they were going, oh, wow,
the whole. The whole north side of the building's
gone. And I knew right then, I'm like, this was
not a gas explosion. I didn't know exactly what
it was, but I knew it wasn't gas. So at the time,
I was actually working for IMSA, which is the
medical provider here in the metro. And back
then, everybody would say, the fire department
doesn't call people back. We just didn't do that.
That wasn't a big thing. So I knew that IMSA
could use me. Super quick. I think I took a super
quick shower, threw my uniform on, and I drove
pretty crazy downtown to the post where we would
deploy our ambulances. And I actually caught
the very last ambulance that was coming out of
that post. And there was probably 10 of us on
the back of the box. go up right on the Northwest
corner of the building. I remember I there's
pictures. I, I, it's, it took me a while before
I found them, but there was pictures exactly
who was there, what was there when I got off
and it was a Northwest corner of the building.
And I remember stepping out of the back of the
amulets and you hear people yelling, you know,
a lot of work going on, but I still remember
I was just like, you know, I was overwhelmed,
to be honest, at the time when I saw that because
I had never been on any scene like that. So at
that point, there was a couple that I worked
with there. They all knew I was a firefighter.
And they said, hey, they were passing out these
orange hard hats, put on an orange hard hat.
Make sure that people are, you know, only let
people in and out of this area that need to be.
If they need stuff, help them. And, you know,
so we went to work. And I never went in the building
right there. But people were coming out yelling.
They got people trapped. That was the only time
when I was in that area where I seen a live victim
come out. And they brought a lady out. And to
this day, I don't know who it is, if she lived,
didn't live. But I remember we put her in the
back of the ambulance, covered in concrete dust,
just covered. And there was a person up there.
They said, this person is a physician. And we
all know that can be good or bad. And this is
not to knock a physician. It's just that's not
their space. So there was concern about cleaning
her up. And I'm like, hey, is she breathing or
not? You know, kind of going through that basics,
you know, sometimes a good basic, a good paramedic,
their basic skills is what makes them a good
paramedic. So I want to make sure to breathe
in everything. And everything was good in that
area. So I jumped out and they took her to the
hospital. But that was the only person that I
seen there. But I remember it took me years before
I could really understand. how to explain it
to somebody and then i've seen saving private
ryan when they were storming the beach now i'm
not in any way trying to compare myself that
was storming normandy we know that is a different
generation of people and how fantastic they were
but when that part when they're shooting at tom
hanks and he's and it's that slow motion the
way it was When I described, that's how I felt.
Everything around me was this weird slow motion
because it was so active. And so for me, that
was the area when I saw that movie, I'm like,
oh my gosh, that's how I felt. There was just
so much going on. And I don't know how long,
I think, I estimate that I got there probably
about 940 to 945. And then about 10, 10 to 10,
15, I think 10, 15 is the closest number. That's
when the first bomb scare happened, when they
actually had a bomb scare and people started
yelling secondary device. And what was so interesting,
I still tell people in my brain, everybody just
started to run. And in that moment, because.
When people start running, you do the same thing.
So I started running with them. And I remember,
so I was on the northwest corner running back
to the west. And there's a Regency Towers, which
is one of the apartment buildings, 22 -story
apartment building right next to the bombing.
And I'm running in that direction. I remember
looking at someone and saying, why are we running?
They're like, oh, they found a secondary device.
And I remember I turned back around, faced the
building, and I'm like, well, if it goes off,
I'm dead anyway. So I started to go back. What's
interesting, and it's in the memorial when I
do a tour, I tell people, when I was running
towards that apartment, there was an axle laying
in the road and a red car. And I remember seeing
all that and just in your brain goes, something
here doesn't belong. But, you know, I just remember
that, seeing it, and I just turned back around
and went to work. What was interesting, long
story short, that was the axle from the Ryder
truck. They used that VIN number off that to
find that, but I still remember that. But I go
back, started helping move apparatus and they
were doing stuff. And at that point, they redeployed
us to an area of staging. ambulances waiting
to be called in. And I still remember in that
area of staging, I don't know how long it was,
but it seemed like an eternity, you know, cause
I was going crazy. I'm like, why are we, you
know, we need to be at the building. But obviously
at that point I've been trained, you know, if
you're given a task, you maintain your task.
You don't just go freelance. I'd probably done
some freelance showing up there, but I still,
as I stepped into that structure, I wanted to
maintain that. We were then redeployed. sometime
later to the area that is the mezzanine level
which was if you're coming from fourth street
was the upper level which actually where the
second story came out to that level and then
you had the first story on fifth street that
came out the street level and i remember being
up there they kept talking about a person that
their leg was you know trapped they can't get
them out calling for equipment i never went down
in that area but i remember That old talk of
we need this, we need a doctor and all of that.
And that was Dana Bradley that they ended up
having to amputate her leg. I was not there,
but I remember them calling for that and all
those different areas. Unfortunately, the second
floor was the daycare. So that was where they
were bringing it. I didn't see any. while I was
there at that point, bringing a lot of the children
out in that area. But I maintained in that area
for, I don't, I couldn't tell you how long, just
seeing what was needed, helping get stuff. And
then at some point I ran into a couple of firefighters
that I'd worked with and they said, Hey, the
fire department's calling people back. They're
asking us. So I went and found someone that I
thought was a supervisor for him and said, Hey,
I'm, I. Being called back to the fire department,
I want to let you know I'm going to be leaving.
So went to station, got our gear. At that point,
they deployed us to Station 1, took us to Station
1. We was there for a while. They put us in groups
of 25, and then they made a decision to redeploy
us back down there. Got down to the building,
was on the front side there, which is the north
side on 5th Street. And, you know, it was a rubble
pile that, you know, when that building collapsed,
there was a lot of rubble that went down at an
angle all in that area. And there was people
trapped in that area that were obviously deceased.
And my officer that I was stationed with at the
time, Station 18, David Oliver, he and I were
put in a man basket with a crane, and we went
up there and removed. one of the first bodies
off that pile, put them in a body bag. And then
we come down and it was kind of, I hate to say
anti -climatic, but at that point they're like,
okay, you can go home. And you're like, how do
I, how do you process all of that? You know,
I'd been there. It was dark at that point. How
do you process it? You still want to be there,
but you also recognize there's a structure and
you want to do that. So I remember I went back
to my station at the time and I just slept on
the couch. I didn't know. what to do, how to
do it. So I went there and slept. I don't even
remember a lot of that. I just remember going
back to station like, wow, how do you process?
What do you do? And we were off two other days.
So I spent the next two days lamenting on going
back to work because you want to be there and
help. But I go back to that bomb scare, and we
all know that now. The secondary device, it was
interesting because it's in the museum. It was
an actual trainer for the ATF. The device is
actually in there that they found that everyone
was evacuated. You know, I'm sure for those that
were in the building, very scary, very traumatic.
I've heard some of them talk about it. probably
the best thing that happened to us to structure
it because it allowed everyone that didn't need
to be in that building to get people out to actually
set a perimeter. And at that point, I was a grunt.
I was a firefighter. I was doing what I was told,
and I had some understanding. But really, that
was probably something that allowed us to really
get full control that we need to have for that
building. There were so many people there that
day on that northwest corner. I mean, people
in suits. I remember people running up to me
in suits. And, you know, at that point, people
are doing what they think they can. But unfortunately,
you know, there was a nurse that lost her life
in that. And she was there, Rebecca Anderson,
to help. and unfortunately you know because of
the rock and rubble i don't they believe um something
fell and hit her in the head she obviously had
head trauma and there's a picture of her that
shows her and you could see she was in a true
decor ticket or you know posturing position very
unfortunate you know someone there but i think
i say that all That scare allowed us to really,
the command structure to get that. They had ICS
and were managing things, but we didn't have
control of the perimeter and building and allowed
us to do that. And at that point, there was everybody
helping. I mean, there was police officers, firefighters,
IMSA workers, EMS people. You know, people were
in there doing what they had to do at the time.
But that was my first day. And after that, I
worked 10 other days that I... For me, it's so
interesting. I sit on the board now. I'm on the
conscience committee. But I didn't really go
in that building until I made chief. I went there
one time to do a first -person talk, and it was
something I didn't want any part of. And it took
me a long time to recognize in my own trauma
that I had. I had things that I did not remember.
I could not tell you. And as I went in that building,
it allowed me to unpackage that. And it wasn't
easy, but it allowed me to unpackage that to
really appreciate. What I mean by appreciate
is to understand what I went through and how
to try to deal with that in a positive way. And
I never had total trauma where I couldn't function.
But there are things that definitely were debilitating.
When you say going in that building, was that,
because I'm trying to remember, I watched the
documentary not too long ago again. Was that
the memorial that's on the footprint of the original
building? It was. I actually was there for that
day. So I was, there was 12 of us. So kind of
give you the full, all the way through. We went
to. recovery mode, what they said, recovery,
you know, they tried to stay in rescue mode till
May 1st. And then that was the official shift
where we went to recovery. The last four days
of recovery, I worked every day. Um, and, and
I had my deputy chief that just retired. He and
I was on that team together. We probably recovered
40 to 60 bodies. I mean, we recovered a significant
amount and It's interesting, as I had conversation
with him, he told me things I could remember.
And I think that's a natural way our body tries
to protect us. But we also know for some people
that protection creates challenge. You know,
you're not dealing with the trauma. I was fortunate.
I never had some, as I said, I had issues. I
mean, I'm not afraid to tell people. I've seen
a counselor. I still see a counselor. And, you
know, it's all of that stuff that we build up.
And I wanted to find a way to deal with it in
a positive way. And I didn't always. I mean,
I would love to say that I did, but I didn't.
So, but yes, we had. The final day we walked
out at 12 .05 on May 5th, 12 .05 a .m., when
our chief came in and said, that's it, we're
done. We knew we had two people. We ended up
being three in an area. And there's like the
engineers were afraid if we took that rubble
away from those columns that the building would
collapse. So they said, that's it. We can't do
anything safely without imploding the building.
So we walked out at 12 .05 a .m., was back the
very next morning and had a memorial. service
on site. So did they demolish the building? And
then let me rephrase that. Where is the Memorial
Museum place now? Is it on the footprint of where
the building was? It is not. So on the north
side of that was what was called the Journal
Records building. You have the street, which
is Fifth Street, that is now the reflecting pool.
The south side of the reflecting pool is the
footprint of the building. And you can still
see the outer wall. On the south side and east
side, they still kept that because a parking
garage is still there and everything. The north
side of that was a parking lot, survivor tree.
And right behind the survivor tree was the Journal
Records building. The Journal Records building
now is what houses the Memorial Museum. Gotcha.
Well, going back, thinking pre -mental health
conversation, as we touched on before. I would
imagine the gallows humor, there was probably
some humor found in the fact that the secondary
device was an ATF decoy. Were there any jokes
about that? Because I can only imagine, I mean,
maybe the magnitude of the incident was too much,
but I know all the horrors that I've seen in
my career, some of the most crazy little elements
were the things that we joked about when we got
back. Oh, yeah. I don't recall that because I'm
not sure at the time we all fully knew what it
was. We knew it was, you know, we knew it was
a training device. We didn't know as much about
it. There was just so much focus around that.
And it's interesting. I'll use this analogy.
I get to do tours there quite often. And I can
tell everyone when we get down to the invest,
when they get into the investigation of the.
The building and all of that, very well done.
The FBI, the city police, everyone together,
outstanding job. I remember nothing. And I tell
people it's so weird. Once that building was
imploded and I was on site when they imploded
it that day, I was on duty and my chief took
me down there. I remember nothing. I don't remember
the trial. It's like, I don't want to watch it.
You know, in that discussion, a lot of that,
we didn't have that discussion. There was some,
and I worked with a couple guys that really,
really struggled, really struggled. And, you
know, that was a tough deal. We're fortunate,
you know, we had those teams developed. I'm sure
we did a lot of things today that we would do
totally different today than we did then. We
were also fortunate we had a lot of money. There
was about 25 to 27 million dollars that was raised
for specifically for behavior health, for responders,
family members, survivors. Because I remember
when I made chief in 2017, right after that,
2018, they did a ceremony because they had expended
the last dollars from that event, 2017. So we
were fortunate. We had some money there. But
past that point, there are still people that
I'm sure are struggling from that event. You
know, sometimes it's a lifetime. And so there
was probably some of that humor. I know that's,
I mean, that dark humor, black humor that we
talk about in different ways. I don't remember
that specifically. I would love to. We have a
great relationship with the law enforcement officers
here. Police and us, we get along. We give each
other a hard time. That would be fun to give
them a hard time that was your training device,
but it was never really talked about. You mentioned
about people struggling. I had Chris Fields on
the show and we became friends. And hearing his
marriage story, even with him and Cheryl, is
absolutely incredible. But one of the things
that really struck me, he's got that iconic,
tragically iconic picture of him holding that
dead child from the daycare center. And one of
the things he mentioned about just being so debilitating
was the anniversary. And all of a sudden, the
picture of him holding a dead child is global
again and again. And now, obviously, we just
had the documentary with with that element. Of
course, you want the story to be told. You want
to memorialize the dead. You want to, you know,
hopefully prevent a tragedy of that happening
again. What is the impact of something that was
so visceral to you as far as the anniversaries
of that incident? You know, it's my wife tells
me every year. And I don't really notice it.
But she says every year around that time that
I have that effect, you know, that it seems like.
And you don't even sometimes notice it. You try
to do things the same way. But I know it's there.
And it does. I mean, I worked with Chris. So
he was actually my officer. And I worked for
him in 1999. So after the effect. And you would
have never known it. I mean, he was a bubbly
person. You know, I knew him when he made chief
and came down as our communications chief. So
I appreciate, you know, I've talked with Chris
a lot and, you know, I've seen him do his talk.
I appreciate, number one, that he's been able
to overcome that. And, you know, but number two,
that he's willing to share because sometimes
it's hard to share the challenges you go through.
And so I appreciate that perspective. But it
does affect you. I'll tell you, I've done a lot
of talks on it, and it's helped me therapeutically
to talk about it. It used to, it was the opposite.
You kind of suppressed it, but it's helped me
to talk about it. And everyone has to learn what
works for them. Some people want to talk about
it. Some people don't. I think the main thing
we have to do is identify through people that
are trained professionals of how do you deal
with it in a positive way. But I had some challenges.
I was going to speak in New York about it. And
I spent all this time getting prepared. I was
going to do a keynote speech. And then I listened
to Chris. We had our OKC Foundation. Chris spoke
at it. Then right afterwards, I go and do an
MRI. They're doing some medical stuff on it.
I had to put this cage over my face. And I remember,
you know, I... Those have always been funky anyway,
but you go into this MRI machine and it's like
that close to my face and it's shaking. And I
remember I usually can just calm myself down.
I was a rescue diver. I've been in some pretty
tight spaces, confined space trained. I remember
I kept talking myself down and I couldn't get
myself to calm down. And I remember I just started
pushing that button. They pulled me out and I
remember I looked up the lane. I said, I felt
like I was in the building. And she's like. You
know, look at me. She didn't have a clue what
building is talking about. But I had all of that
that I'd been preparing a speech, you know, listen
to Chris talk and all that. It hit me all at
once. I was like, I can't do it. You know, and
then I said, let me try again to put me back
in. I said, I can't do it. I had to stop. And,
you know, they later actually gave me a volume
and I was able. But it was I had that on my mind.
And it was it hit me, you know, was one of those
right in the middle of it. I'm just like, I can't
do this. So I think this is what's really interesting.
A couple of things. Firstly, the the post -traumatic
growth element. I think that's such an important
part of the conversation where, you know, when
when you're able to find your own personal toolbox,
which is the other part of the conversation,
like no one thing works for all of us. It just
doesn't. But the hope that you will be more resilient
on the other side, I think, is what we need to
be hearing. Everyone talking about not the sad
stories and, you know, I'm going to live with
my PTSD air quotes like that. I really feel like,
OK, not everyone can get past that. But most
people, there's there's even more growth that
you haven't quite got to yet. But I think that
please jump in, jump in. Well, I think you hit
the nail on the head. We keep saying PTSD, PTSD.
We have all have PTSD. We need to figure out
how we have post -traumatic growth and not become
a disorder. Now, I also want to say this, too,
because I think we attach labels to things. Just
because you have PTSD doesn't mean you're broken.
It doesn't mean that you can't survive, can't
function. It means you need to recognize it.
Just like if someone had cancer, you need to
recognize it and treat it. But there is life
after cancer, and there is life after PTSD. So
I think we are, and the reality, we've got to
all embrace the fact that if you're in a line
of field that we do of fire, police, EMS, nursing,
all of these different things, and there's others.
I'm not trying to just say that you're going
to have post -traumatic stress. It's just, it's
part of it. And we need to build resiliency factors,
how we grow from that. and do things in a positive
way and where we get through that and when we
don't when we have struggles there's ways to
deal with that and and try to get better but
and look at that in a positive way and not let
it become a disorder now i'm not saying you can't
you you that it never happens but we need to
look at that and be able to grow from it well
the other thing i think that a lot of people
miss when it comes to our profession is early
life struggles in early life and as you touched
on aces which i thought is brilliant adverse
childhood experience score i've had several people
tell me that on average first responders and
military have an aces of about six and so do
incarcerated personnel so You have people that
have had struggles in there earlier. Some of
them are able to find the right path. And I would
argue the only thing missing between right and
wrong is that positive mentorship from a collection
of people along the way and or good parenting,
of course. But with that post -traumatic growth,
having those struggles when you're young, absolutely,
I think, you know, forges the kind of person
that is going to be a good first responder, good,
you know, soldier, whatever it is. But if left
unaddressed. it becomes a crack in our foundation.
And so I think acknowledging that rather than
the MMPI, which I did numerous times to get hired,
which I've discovered through this podcast was
never supposed to be a standalone test for someone
to be able to get first responder or not. But
it's understanding like if you've walked through
the door and put your hand up and said, I want
to be a first responder, there's a good chance
that there were a set of circumstances that led
you this way. And even for yourself, I mean,
a lot of people, even though you had this nurturing,
loving, upbringing, there's that little voice
in the back. Why wasn't I good enough for my
original parents? And you hear this a lot. So
I myself was in a house fire when I was four,
almost died, almost got crushed by a wall. A
few years later, horrible parents divorced. So
there were things. But I also grew up on a farm.
I had animals. I had nature. I had clean food.
My dad was a veterinary surgeon, so he healed
animals. So equally and oppositely, there were
these abilities to start processing the trauma.
So I think this is a really important part of
our conversation is understanding at the front
door, not only for mental health, but also for
performance that as much as we do PT, mental
fitness should also be part of the conversation.
If you have not, you know, very little to offload,
then great. You just created a relationship with
a counselor that as you progress through and
God forbid, you have a, you know, Mara building
experience, then now you've, you can immediately
know who you're going to see. But more often
than not, if you do have things that haven't
been addressed before you put the uniform on,
right at the beginning, you can start talking
about those and processing them. And I think
that is a conversation that will lead a lot more
of us into that post -traumatic growth side.
I totally agree. We're blessed that we have an
LCSW that works for us, a behavioral health specialist.
And we've had a lot of conversation, and that's
what she's brought up. You know, we need to be
looking at these ACE scores, some of these different
scores, and not from a fact of saying that you're
not fit to be a firefighter, but, hey, you have
this background. You need to be aware of that.
And how do you grow from that? Because I think
we've, for years, we've just ignored those factors.
And the reality, you brought, you know, many
times because someone may have been through some
hurt or some challenges, they want to help others.
And that's their power of what they want to do.
But they may not have the understanding. How
do you take care of yourself? Because you can't
help someone else if you can't help yourself.
And it doesn't mean they're weak. It doesn't
mean they're not strong. It just means they have
that in their history. And to recognize that
and how do we grow from it? I think that's what
we have to do of learning. How do we grow from
that? How do we educate those new individuals
coming on the job to help them be successful?
And to help them have a productive, because in
reality, I say we want firefighters that have
a great family life, that enjoy everything, not
just the fire department, everything around it.
Because if they're happy, they're going to be
a lot better firefighters. They're going to be
productive at the fire station. They're going
to be productive in their family life. And I
think that's an area that we're going to have
to lean into and really address that wholeheartedly.
This is a conversation I've had a lot recently.
When you hear the knee -jerk response to especially
the recruitment crisis, oh, well, the problem
is kids today, they just don't want to work.
They all want to be YouTubers. And you take a
step back and you look at kids today. Firstly,
from a fitness side, I hear this a lot. the fit
candidates that we get are extremely fit because
the way that sports science has evolved and everything,
even the adaptive athlete side, you know, it's
amazing the level of education these young people
get and the kinds of gyms that are accessible
for them to be really well prepared for this
profession. But also I would argue that they're
very emotionally intelligent these days and they
value relationships. So if they look at the application
for a fire department and it's really showing
that they take care of their people, and they
value their time at home, then they're probably
going to be very interested. Conversely, if you
refuse to evolve with the changes, and there's
mandatory overtime, and lack of mental health
support, and no fitness standards, I feel like
that is dissuading a lot of young people who
would otherwise be chomping at the bit to be
firefighters. I think the reality of when I came
on the job, they said the same thing. Oh, my.
Look at this generation of firefighters we're
hiring. What are we going to do? So the reality
of it is, I think as leaders, we have to recognize,
and you said it, play to the strengths of those
candidates that we have. They have a lot of areas
that are way better than my generation. But the
areas that they're not as good at. What we always
hear is their adaptive skills, you know, that
they're hands on. But those are things that can
be taught. I mean, we can teach that part of
it. The nice thing is you're not teaching the
other side. So you have that balance. You just
got to invest in your employees. You can complain
about it or you can deal with it. And the dealing
with it is recognizing their strengths and playing
upon their strengths and helping them through
their weaknesses. It's the generations that we
have that make us it's going to make us better.
They're going to be more adaptive. You know,
it's funny. For the fire service for years, we
always said there's two things firefighters hate,
change and the way things are. Well, the beauty
of the newer generation, they're more open to
change. They're more willing to change because
they've seen it through their life. So why not
play to that strength where you can make changes
and help them in the areas, the skill set. And
I can tell you, when you apply the skills and
you help them through the skills, they're extremely
knowledgeable, extremely. cognizant of that and
are able to perform a high level. So I think
we're going to stop playing to their strengths.
I think one of the things that I've seen as well
collectively is they're more apt to ask why.
So, you know, why are we helping this elderly
lady and cleaning her up and putting her back
to bed? That's a great answer for that. Well,
because it's the right thing to do. And, you
know, the husband's now crushed with shame and
guilt because he can't pick up the love of his
life. And the four of us can go in there and
completely change their day. Oh, okay. That makes
perfect sense. You know, why do we wake up a
whole bunk room of firefighters for one rescue's
call? We shouldn't. Exactly. So it's good to
ask why, you know, some things make sense and
some things don't make sense. So I think that
makes them stronger, too. And in my generation,
we just did it. And then when we was telling
the next person, well, we just because that's
what we do. And now as we as leaders, we should
be building the why into the training. And I
think that's where we would be better organizationally,
because now. We as leaders have to say why. We
have to put the why. And it helps us to understand
sometimes we're making a decision that we're
asking ourselves that. It helps us sometimes
to go, is it really that important? Because we
can't even explain why we're doing it. So it
makes us rethink that as well. So yeah, every
generation is going to have challenges and we
just have to work through that and help us to
move forward and to help us grow. Absolutely.
I said this recently. I just did a conversation
or a... a talk at the Florida Professional Firefighters
Conference. And, you know, they're all kind of
my generation, either side of it. And I said
to him, look, you know, we're standing on the
shoulders of giants. The SCBA has already been
invented. So has Bunker Gear. So has, you know,
Epi. I mean, all these things that we've used
to save lives for our whole career are other
people's ideas. where we can be a pioneer is
the health of the human being this is the opportunity
that my generation has so that people will look
back and go i can't believe they used to work
56 80 hours a week you know i can't believe they
had pfas in all their gear and maybe that was
one of the things that was killing them um so
it is i think it's excuse me it's exciting because
we have kind of one foot in each generation now
and we can either as you said Just keep doing
the way that we're doing. And, you know, the
money that you need for a D shift, for example,
where I live is being bled in overtime and people
leaving the department after they train them,
you know, take that money and proactively put
it in. And then that way now you can be a force
multiplier with, you know, 15, 20, 25 years in
the service and leave a legacy of mental and
physical health for the next firefighters. And
there's so many things out there. You said it.
We had a wellness committee meeting this morning
and just excited for opportunity. In our last
recruit class, we introduced what's called an
H -drop system. I don't know if it's a hydration.
It's a thumbprint hydration system. It's a wearable,
but you can do it. And we had every recruit every
day had to come in and test their hydration levels.
And it allowed us, and we didn't see any heat
-related injuries through that entire recruit
class. So we used that system. We now are rolling
it out to the stations. And it's very cost -effective.
I think each device is about $250 a piece. And
we're going to put those at all our fire stations.
And this is not anything earth shattering. For
the next recruit class, we're going to put everybody
in loops. So now they'll be able to see, we want
to be able to not just heart rate variability,
but they can see their hydration levels. We want
to start talking to them about their sleep and
start educating them on their sleep patterns
and how they're doing that. And so hopefully
we can, you know. build a new generation of coming
out of recruit school. And I would love to change
the entire department, but we also know we need
to start foundationally and then come back to
that because as we continue that in our foundation,
we can continue to improve the health and well
-being of our firefighters going forward. That's
really interesting. I haven't heard of that technology
before, but I've seen a few deaths recently,
line of duty deaths of young recruits that have,
you know, literally, I mean, like in their 20s.
that have come back from whatever training and
then just dropped dead. And again, I don't know
if that was an underlying cardiac issue or, but
I mean, you know, we all know that dehydration
can, you know, if not cause and certainly aggravate
a pre preexisting condition. And so I think we're
all learning together, but I think you hit the
nail on the head. We're fortunate. We have those
things that's already been codified. It's part
of our organization. And so how do we build on
that and continue to improve and look at technology
and look at things that we can improve our organizations?
So we were talking the last time we spoke, I
had Danny Long on the show, who's the Oklahoma
State Trooper and spearheading an amazing fitness
and wellness initiative in your state. Talk to
me about the fitness side, fitness standards
or any other side on the tactical athlete element
of your firefighters. So, you know, that's one.
We use the WFI initiative, Wellness Fitness Initiative,
that is developed by the IFF. We run everyone
through that every year. We're fortunate. We
do physicals on everyone every year, and they
go straight from their physical and do the WFI
standards, so they go through that process. Then
we have peer fitness trainers in the district
to try to improve those areas that they're lagging
in that. We're fortunate we have an athletic
trainer. That spearheads a lot of that, and we're
continuing to grow the program. We do have a
mandatory non -punitive workout, which means
you're required to work out an hour and a half
every day on the job. And, you know, that's the
area of how do we continue that space. We still
have a lot of growth in the areas that we need
to improve in that. We don't have minimum requirements,
but we do have aggregate so we can look that
everyone pretty much is in that space where they're
able to do the job. They're physical. They can
check them off when they do their lung capacity
and everything through that process. In that,
we do ultrasounds, abdominal ultrasounds, thyroid
ultrasounds for cancer screening, heavy metal
blood screening, some other things. And I'm wanting
to expand that even more. We've been reaching
out to... South Metro Fire in Colorado on their
CTA scans that they do, the heart scans, and
really trying to learn from that. And they've
been phenomenal. And I'm not afraid to do R &D,
which I call rip off and duplicate. So if they're
doing something good, we'll just put our name
on it and learn from it. So we're in that space.
I'm excited to see. I'm hearing that new NFPA
standards are coming out with some minimum VO2
max and some recommendations on that processing
and what people and categories are. I do like,
you know, you talk with John and MFC and managing
fire company. He has it has some certain levels
of fitness. And I know Phoenix uses that as well.
And we've looked at that modeling system. We're
still working through some of those challenges.
of you know people online and offline but really
overall we focus on the fitness area of providing
the carrot instead of the stick attitude for
fitness the 90 minute workout is that on shift
yes sir how do you cover that is do they go to
the call if they get a call or do you actually
put them out of service they have to go to a
call if they get a call But most it's we don't
like some departments have a certain time frame
between this time. We allow the officer to manage
that in any way they say fit. They do track that.
We do have an app that they put in their fitness
that they do every day. And so we try to build
that into part of our organization. We kind of
have a saying every day is a training day. Every
day is a physical fitness day. So we really try
to focus in that area. And I will tell you, we're
not a we still have a lot of growth that we're
trying. doing that space but we're really that's
why we're bringing that gra from osu on to help
us grow one of the areas that we want to do we
were doing fms screenings um and we're trying
to move to more of mobility we found some mobility
apps and they never have come to fruition so
we're trying to that gra is going to help us
build out our mobility program fms is really
good it's just Because if you don't have one
person doing all of them, it's hard to be consistent.
So we're really trying to look at a better mobility
program to have consistency. Beautiful. Yeah,
I had one of the founders of FMS on the show
not long ago. Another one when I think of mobility
is yoga for first responders, which when you
hear the word yoga and first responder, that's
their whole thing. It's like there's normally
pushback, but I've heard nothing but great things
about that program. They were actually talking
about that today in our... In our wellness meeting,
we have a wellness committee that's labor and
management, and they do a lot of stuff to help
move our organization forward. We're just talking
about some of those yoga programs. There was
an interesting one of our wellness guys is a
PT, and he was talking about this triphasic training.
Have you heard of that? Yeah. Yeah, talking about
that and just trying to look in some other areas
how we can improve because you've got to have
there's limitations for your workout really on
duty. You know, you don't want to probably go
out and do Murph, you know, with a vest while
you're on duty. But there are other things that,
you know, how do we build some good workouts
that we could do on duty? And some of the studies
I want to do is how do we build workouts where
we're burning that cortisol? Because we know
that that's a challenge that high stress. Some
of the things firefighters have with shift work
is having higher levels of cortisol. I know there's
certain workouts, but really being intentional
to say, hey, when you're coming off duty, you
need to do some type of workout here to burn
that cortisol or something in that. I don't know.
We're going to look at a lot of different studies.
So another one, foundation training is amazing.
And I used that initially to heal a back injury.
No surgery, nothing. Phenomenal. But the kind
of right -hand man of the founder is a former
Orlando firefighter. And you talk about understanding
movement. They're phenomenal. And they've worked
with, I mean, high -level athletes of all disciplines
and movie stars. But that's another. amazing
amazing movement system and then going back to
what you said this is one thing that i used to
do is come off shift and then i'm gonna go you
know burn off my stress burn off my you know
my tension whatever it is and it was a navy seal
on the seal seal team six guys that pointed out
is that look so you're coming off already highly
stressed and you're gonna do a high stress workout
Right. And immediately I went and I've been,
you know, in the athletic performance side for
a while now. And I was like, oh, my God. Yeah.
What an idiot. Of course. So absolutely. Like
you said, understanding, you know, if you if
you I mean, if you had 24 hours at a station,
whether you get a call or not, you're in that
heightened state. Your sleep is going to be,
you know, less than optimal. that next day should
be a kind of low intensity workout and then probably
the following day or if you got a 24 72 the third
day would be your like i'm gonna have today it's
deadlift day at the gym that's when i would do
that workout but you know the number of times
you know there's fran the next day coming off
shift and of course not i mean you're just gonna
get frustrated you're gonna get burnt out and
you're gonna be feeling even worse than when
you arrive but i think that's why we have to
educate our firefighters just like you said of
Maybe a longer, consistent workout. I mean, just
a basic workout when you come off your shift.
But I think that's that education piece, just
like you said, of not a high -stress workout,
but something to burn that cortisol in a way
that's an even -kill type workout. Absolutely.
Well, you mentioned about after the 95 bombing.
the funding coming through and just, you know,
finally depleting it a few years ago. What have
you seen as far as the evolution of the mental
health conversation and tools in your department
specifically? Well, we have, again, a licensed
professional counselor that's on staff, a pretty
robust peer support team. We have a chaplain.
So we are constantly pushing that. We have a
family support team. We have a retiree support
team in that. So we do things in that space of
really educating. You know, we do the normal
stuff like most departments. We have a potentially
traumatic event. where they can push that on
their record management system and we can track
those. So a lot of that is the openness of space
of conversation. But we also, everyone's different.
I'm not here to tell someone. We still do diffusings
if we have a pretty significant event. We do
a lot of follow -up. We're very active in that.
We do, with our recruits, when they come on board,
we do. reoccurring family support nights, talking
about that. So I think everything that we do,
we're trying to be intentional of putting that
space in the space of how do you maintain behavior
health. And our wellness team is also a wellness
committee. It's not just about physical health.
It's holistic health. In this next Recruit Academy,
we're going to do cognitive. How do you deal,
you know, cognitive thinking? How do you look
at that forward? And they're going to do one
to two hours a week on that. The cognitive space
of how working through that with our clinician.
Talk to them about heart rate variability. So
everything we do on that is continuous education
with our members. And we're just learning. The
main thing is we have an app that they can utilize.
We use the Lighthouse app, which is okay. I'm
not saying the app's okay. It's just you do a
lot of things that don't reach as many members
as you'd like. We have our clinician. She goes
out. She even does ride -alongs. She's very active
in the space. Everyone that comes to our wellness
center for their – when they do their WFI initiative,
we have our clinician there. My long -term goal
is that when they come in, not only do they –
The wellness fitness assessment will also do
a check in with the behavior health person. So
we're continuing evolution of that. But the main
thing is that we want to show support of that.
Someone's going through a difficult time. We
have very active. We have a foundation through
our local help people to get behavior health
help where it's center of excellence, whatever
it may be. You know, we're very cognizant of
that. making sure that we take care of our people.
We have time off that we can do. If they are
going through a difficult time, I can give admin
leave for certain points. So we're doing some.
Is there still areas that we want to continue
to move and grow? Yes. But we're really trying
to hit. every avenue and normalize that where
people can talk about it. My next phase, I've
really wanted to move into how do we get the
company officer involved in that, check -ins,
making sure they're involved, really training
them to create where they're humble and they're
open on stressful events and really talk to them
more. I would love to say we're there organizationally.
Some of our officers are better than others,
but really trying to look at that from a holistic
approach. throughout the entire organization.
It's funny you say that because I was just talking
to someone the other day. I think it was in law
enforcement, if I'm not mistaken. And the same
point was made that they were doing, you know,
there was this mental health training, but they
wanted to put it into company officers because
ultimately it's just interaction. It's human
interaction. So it's not like they're learning
all these kind of Sigmund Freud -esque psychology,
you know, specific things. They're just learning
how to interact with people, how to create an
environment where someone can ask for help or
someone can offload their trauma or just be courageously
vulnerable full stop. So it makes perfect sense
to apply it to that field as well. Well, if you
think about it, when we first hired our clinician.
We've had her a couple of years. People call
her and say, hey, I need you to call and check
this person. She's like, hang on. This needs
to be pushed down to where you are. You're the
one they trust. You're the one they want to talk
to. If you bring it the other way, it looks like
an intervention. You need to develop this of
our leaders and those that they feel comfortable
with, that they are with every day, those that
they break bread with and have a relationship.
that we're the ones checking in and making sure
they're okay and recognizing that and then pointing
them to resources or making sure they're getting
help in that space. Absolutely. Well, you mentioned
retirees earlier. In this presentation, there's
a slide and it said that in 2024, because people
ask me for the data all the time, well, show
me the data about this work week. And if you
look at the data, supposedly only 72 firefighters
died last year. Now, we all know I could name
72 probably in the state of Florida, no matter
the whole country. And that's not, you know,
even the ones that then air quotes died suddenly
that we all know exactly what the backstory was,
suicide, overdose, et cetera. But then I asked
the room, but this even then I said, which is
the grossly, you know, underrepresented, you
know, portion of the fire service. And a couple
of people said retirees. Exactly. So there is
no VA for the first responders. So the moment
that door closes behind your back, that last
day, you cease to be a statistic. And when does
most disease and mental health issues, when do
they normally manifest? Once you've left the
job and you've lost that purpose and identity
and tribe and you age out to the point where
your cardiac has issues and cancer and all the
other things. So it's interesting that you mentioned
that you are still tapping into your retirees.
So talk to me about how you view the men and
women that were wearing the uniform that have
transitioned out. I would love to say that we've
conquered this. So please, this is not we. Our
goal is when they retire, we connect them to
a peer support person. And that's a retiree that
can connect with them, help them. And that way
they know that someone's still there. The biggest
challenge is how do you continue that on? Because
many times we all know that the challenges are,
okay, you do that. When that person goes off
and starts having a bad time, tough time. Well,
they may not reach out to that person. If you're
not there, you don't know because there's not
that constant relationship every day. So we're
still in that space of trying to figure out how
do we do things through the foundation. We're
working with our foundation through our local,
trying to identify how do we create events or
gatherings or things to where it brings those
people into space again and where we have people
there they can talk to. We haven't totally conquered
that. I'll just be straight. We do connect them
with someone and we have those people there.
But the reality, you said it, when they go, they
feel like they're not a part anymore. And we
see those that retire with a purpose are more
successful than those that just retire. And I
think that's another part we're trying to do
is set up meetings and training and how people
retire and go through that with them. But it's
very difficult because as in every case, is someone
going through a challenge, they have to want
help. It's the same thing for someone retiring.
They have to want to hear that because it's tough.
But we're still learning from that. But we do
connect them when they retire to that, to a peer
support person that's a retiree that's been there.
But it's still. I'm just saying we haven't fully
conquered that, but we're working through that
to try to identify ways. We have partnered. There's
ODP. officer program that's actually set up by
a police officer here. And he was an Edmund police
officer. And it's designed when people retire
to help them if they want to seek employment
afterwards, because a lot of fire police retire
at a younger age that still have time left. And
so that program, we're using the... leadership
of that program to do some training if our people
are interested. And they help people learn to
write resumes and do stuff that people may have
not have done for years and try to help that.
So the whole goal of what we're trying to do
is let people know you have to retire with a
purpose, not just a purpose to retire and sit
on a couch and do what is a purpose. So some
of that's what we're trying to do and recognize
how do we help, not just the peer support, but
how do we get people prepared for that? Yeah.
What you said as far as the purpose is so spot
on. I know people that have left the military,
first responders, and initially they got into
finance or, you know, some other similar profession
and they were just completely unfulfilled. And
it was a real struggle for them. And I always
say, well, look, you were always this kind of
person. You just happen to put on a certain uniform
for a couple of decades, but that doesn't define
who you are. You were always the person that
wanted to make the world a little bit better.
So when you're transitioning out, what does that
look like now? It might be that you're a landscaper
and you just love, you know. changing someone's
backyard into a place where they can sit with
a cup of coffee and be tranquil. If that's nurturing
for you, that's brilliant. Or it might be starting
a nonprofit. But if it's something in a kind
of very superficial, materialistic world that
we know exists outside our professions, that
maybe, just maybe, that's not going to satisfy
the kind of person that you actually are. Right.
Definitely. Still learning in that space. Absolutely.
Well, just staying on that, if you were king
for a day, You had unlimited budget. What would
you put in place so that we could take better
care of our men and women that serve for 15,
20, 25 years in uniform and have now transitioned
out to not wearing it anymore? I think that it's
a sense of belonging. I think I would create
some space where they could be a part of. Again,
those that are happy, they have family, they
have those who don't see that, but just that
opportunity of what that space looks like. Maybe
it'd be a wellness center and that's something
that we're trying to work on where they could
go to work out with fire and police or other
like minds, something like that. Because what
I see many times is unfortunately people retire.
And I'm not saying having a drink or doing that
is not. But what we see is many times they're
socializing over alcohol or doing that. And that
becomes it's not the socializing. It's the alcohol
or those. Again, I'm not saying having a drink
or something like that. But when it becomes that's
what it's fixated on. And we know that it's not
a healthy environment. But I would like to create
if I had all the money in the world, some space.
I'm a gym guy. So I think I would create this
huge gym. That is open and, you know, not just
gym. There's other opportunity because not everybody's
into fitness, but a gym centric that has other
things in their wellness type center. That was
for, you know, police and fire retirees and everybody,
because I think it helps sometimes of being connected
to those are still on the job to feel like you're
a part of it. So that big space, that would be
something in my mind. Now I could be told by.
Someone that has a lot more knowledge and experience.
But if I was king and I could do it, that's probably
what would be big for me to create that space.
And then do events where people could be invited
and families. I think that sometimes we isolate
the family from us is maybe make it that open
environment for families. I've had people say
as well, just bringing retirees back in for training.
You know, for example, you got all these young
Oklahoma firefighters now having people that
were at the bombing. You know, what were the
takeaways? What were the things that went wrong,
things that didn't? I mean, this is we lose so
much knowledge and experience, especially now.
I mean, with this crisis, people are leaving
sooner. So it's becoming a younger and younger
department. So, of course, some people will move
away and it won't be applicable. But if you've
got local firefighters that come back and help
teach, you know, vehicle extrication or whatever
the things are, they just feel a little bit more
connected. And you're learning from, you know,
a veteran firefighter as well. Definitely. All
right. Well, speaking of that, I want to hit
one more area, then we'll do some closing questions.
Since 1995, I know you've been involved with
the technical rescue side as well. What has been
the lessons learned? Not that anything was done
poorly, because obviously that was completely
unprecedented. But what has been the evolution
from the tech rescue side from a city that was
so involved back then? Well, we created an urban
search and rescue team. I was fortunate to build
that here. It's a state team. But I think we
learned in that that one of the things I'll just
tell you that can happen anywhere. That was one
of the things I could tell you just in the space
of I think people think it has to be a huge city
somewhere, New York City, L .A. It can happen
anywhere. But I think what we learned and what
I feel from the bombing was not just in the tech
rescue space, but you need to go out and learn.
We send a lot of people. We go to FDIC. We go
to a lot of conferences. We send a lot of people
out because I think if you live in your own environment.
you're, you know, a prophet has no honor in the
hometown. You know, we go out and look and bring
that back. And so I will say, especially in the
tech rescue space and other areas, we can't learn.
Go out and look what's there, best practices,
learn from that, come back and challenge our
practices and say, is there something we could
do better? So that is an area we've learned and
we have to be prepared. We do a lot of deployments.
Even though we're a state team, we've been deployed
outside the state a lot. We've been to a lot
of hurricanes, a lot of other areas, just being
prepared. I think the preparedness side of that
and being prepared for whatever may happen has
been big for us to learn. What about tornadoes?
I was talking to someone the other day about
that. It's something that we hear less of. Obviously,
a lot of my guests are on the East Coast. Hurricanes,
as you mentioned, are a big thing for us. What
are the idiosyncrasies or maybe even some of
the biggest events that you've responded to when
it comes to that specific element of Mother Nature?
We are well -versed in tornado response, unfortunately.
You know, the May 3rd, 1999 was the highest wind
speed ever recorded on the face of the earth
at like 325 miles an hour that came through our
city. 58 lives, I believe, were lost, not just
in Oklahoma City, throughout that event. Unfortunate.
You know, we had 2012, we had one that hit a
school, killed. several kids at a school, unfortunately.
It was actually in Moore, but it actually came
through my kid's school that they grew up, Briarwood,
went straight through that school directly east,
which was east of it, about half a mile, even
that far east, hit that school and unfortunately
killed some kids there. Fortunate the kids at
Briarwood were not, no one killed there because
it destroyed the school and I lived right by
it. So we've had a lot of tornado responses here.
We haven't had tornadoes here the last couple
of weeks. We just get prepared and get ourselves
prepared to respond to. So it's a challenge that
we have to be prepared for every year. We live
in what's known as Tornado Alley. Even though
it's shifting a little bit, it's always been
Tornado Alley. So we're always prepared for it.
Brilliant. I appreciate that. All right. Well,
then go into the closing questions. The first
one I love to ask, is there a book or are there
books that you love to recommend? It can be related
to our discussion today or completely unrelated.
You know, one that I always for me, it's all
time go to is Angela Duckworth's Grit. It's one
of my favorite books. I relate to it a lot. It
has a little bit in deliberate practice and talks
in different areas. But it's just a book for
me that I love the background experience in that.
And to me, I always use the term what. If I could
describe one word best for firefighters and what
they need to be successful, it's grit. And so
I just think that book is a great read. With
the Academy, what is your perception of setting
the bar high? And the reason I say that is what
I've seen as far as camaraderie and cohesion.
I've worked for four different departments, four
different kind of orientations slash academies.
The ones that set the bar extremely high. in
my opinion, forged a very, very close -knit class
and just prepared me much better for the fire
service. There are areas around the country now
where we're seeing that bar being brought down
further and further for a kind of, in my opinion,
fictional belief that if you lower the bar, you'll
get more people. So when grit is your favorite
word, talk to me about how high you set the bar
at the front door in your department. Well, I'm
fortunate. Our training staff are phenomenal.
And I'm not just saying this. I think if anybody
came, I think we run one of the best recruit
academies in the nation. They are always looking
at how to improve. And, you know, we all know
we could create things where people are not successful.
And what I love is they look at that, you know,
kind of the military style. How do you how do
you stop break them down? But how do you, you
know, you build that? We call it forge. Our training
grounds called the forge and that's how we forge.
And it's part of our value statement forged by
integrity and professionalism. And to me, they
build that and everything they do. And I think
what we do is you don't lower expectations. You
help them achieve those and set why they're high
and you hold that expectation. And I think. It
creates within your organization foundationally
how you can build and improve. If you lower the
standards, then you're lowering the standards
of the entire organization. And I think you don't
want to set them so far off the mark no one can
meet them, but you want to stress how high they
need to be to really have people excel and meet
that. And then they're going to be appreciative
of that. Court Smith, who's our training coordinator,
he's passionate. That's the whole reason he went
down there. He was a company officer in the field
and he wanted to build that. And we have continuous
training staff that come in, work with him to
support that. And they are really focused on
raising the bar. What I've seen in my career,
and I'm interested to get your perception of
this, is when departments are known to have a
high standard. that attracts the right kind of
person. And you do have lines around the building.
And then conversely, the opposite happens. What's
your perception of that? 100%. Now, I believe
there's a lot of, in the metro here, there's
some really good departments that they have a
high bar for their academy. So, you know, to
me, iron sharpens iron. But I firmly believe
in that, that you have to have those high standards.
And when you hold them that, those, again, if
they don't want to come to your organization
because they think it's too hard, then I always
will shake their hand and thank them for where
they're at. But we're glad. I don't want you
to come to our organization because you think
it's going to be easy. I want you to come to
our organization because you know you're going
to be the best of the best. We have a saying,
and the chief fire to me said this. He says,
you work for the best fire department in the
nation. If you don't believe that you're in the
wrong place and that's the way they should feel
when you come in. It's not a it's not a knock
against another organization, but you don't believe
you're at the best organization. You're in the
wrong place. You need to go find that. Absolutely.
All right. Well, then we talked about books.
What about films and documentaries? Any of those
that you love? You know, it's funny when you
say I'm probably one of those. I just watched
The Gladiator 2. I know that for me, everything
about that, I have a warrior spirit. So I love
the Gladiator series, Braveheart, like that.
Those are movies for me. I'm a war guy. I love
the war movies. Obviously, Saving Private Ryan
is one of those that's up there. Anything like
that to me. The Band of Brothers series was just
phenomenal. Things like that. I never was in
the military. I lost an uncle in the Korean War.
He was POW, never survived, had an uncle that
was in World War II. He was on a battleship that
got sunk. So for me, anything to do with war
and teamwork and how that, I really am drawn
to that. Beautiful. Yeah, some great, great shows
there. All right. Well, then the next question,
is there a person that you'd recommend to come
on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first
responders, military and associated professions
of the world? You know, I think one person, this
is probably going to be often if I said this,
someone would probably. He's an interesting guy
and I really respect him, but he retired from
our department. He was ours. And I. Probably
if someone said I said this, I'd probably go,
wow. Mike Shannon was our special operations
chief during the bombing. He retired, big military
guy. He was, you know, in the military. But he
has a very interesting, he did a lot of training
after he retired. But he was our special operations
chief during the bombing. Just a very interesting
guy. Big Civil War buff guy just because of that
background. If not, if not him, I would definitely
someone I always recommend. He does a great job.
A good friend of mine, Alec Ogden, who's the
chief of Aurora Fire Department in Colorado.
And I've recommended him before. He just outstanding
guy. Came from Henrico County, Virginia. Very.
progressive chief. Beautiful. Well, I appreciate
those suggestions. Thank you. All right. Well,
the very last question before we make sure everyone
knows where to find you, what do you do to decompress?
I play the guitar. I started playing a couple
of years ago. I'm not good, but I love music.
So I have a guitar in my house. I pick it up
every day. That's an acoustic guitar. I love
playing. I tell my wife when I retire, I may
grow out my hair and beard. Join a rock and roll
band. I don't know. But if you heard me play,
you'd probably say you're OK. You probably won't
do that. So I like to play the guitar and I work
out. I work out six days a week. I'm not one
of those physical specimens, but I really enjoy
my workout time. It's when I'm working out. I
don't think anything else. And then obviously
I've got family. i've got six uh five grand babies
two more on the way so i really hope to be in
that space a lot more pops and spend a lot more
time in that area but you know those are three
things the decompression obviously is the guitar
working out but your family that connection piece
really helps me feel grounded question for you
because this is just about to happen to me for
the very first time very last time as well I've
talked about all these different layers when
it comes to mental health and challenges, but
one that I really didn't think about until my
son basically became a senior was when you pour
yourself into your children for 18 plus years,
and then one day they walk out the door. It's
tough. I mean, it's tough. I always say this,
and this is the good thing. Your kids always
grow up. They never leave. they're always going
to be around. It's just different. It's just
a different space. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm going
to do a video on that because I think that's,
you know, that's another layer of people are
already starting to struggle a little bit and
then they've got that. Yeah. All right. Well
then for people listening, if they want to reach
out to you, where are the best places to learn
about you or do that on social media? I'm on
LinkedIn. That's the only social media I have
LinkedIn. You can reach out to me, Richard Kelly,
and then you can email me. Okay. See. Rescue,
the number eight at gmail .com. It's the easiest
way. It's my personal. So it's OKCrescue8 at
gmail .com. Brilliant. Well, Richard, I want
to thank you so much. It's been such an amazing
conversation. I mean, all the different areas
that we've hit, thank you for your courageous
vulnerability as far as some of the horrific
things that you've had to see and do as well.
But there's so much value to this. And talking
to someone who's the kind of leader that I hope
we'll see. in all the fire service, you know,
really reflecting on the things that need to
change and some of the solutions that you've
been a part of when it comes to your own department.
So I want to thank you so, so much for being
so generous with your time and coming on the
Behind the Shield podcast today. Thank you so
much for having me. It's really been an honor.