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go to episode 323 of the Behind the Shield podcast

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with Joel Totoro and Wes Barnett. Welcome to

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the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, my

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name is James Gearing and this week it is my

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absolute honor to welcome on the show the fire

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chief of Oklahoma City Fire Department, who was

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also one of the responders to the Alfred Murrow

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Federal Building bombing. Richard Kelly. Now,

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in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics

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from his own journey into the fire service, the

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response and rescue operations of the bombing,

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the ripple effect of that event, fitness standards,

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recruitment, work weeks, mentorship, and so much

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more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,

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as I say every week, please just take a moment,

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go to whichever app you listen to this on. subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in return

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is that you help share these incredible men and

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women's stories so I can get them to every single

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person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So that being said, I introduce to you Chief

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Richard Kelly. Enjoy. Well, Richard, I want to

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start by saying two things. Firstly, thank you

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to our mutual friend, John Brunicini, who was

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on the show recently for making this connection.

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There was someone else, and I apologize if you

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– I know they're listening now. Someone else

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had actually also recommended that we connect,

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and I totally forgot who it was now. So if you're

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listening and you also made this connection,

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I apologize, but thank you to you as well. And

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I want to welcome you onto the Behind the Shield

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podcast today. Yes. Excited to be here. Thanks

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for the opportunity. And a big shout out to John.

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John's a big fan. Big fan of John. He does outstanding

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work. Absolutely. It was an amazing conversation.

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All right. Well, very first question. Where on

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planet Earth are we finding you this afternoon?

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I'm in Oklahoma City. You know, it's interesting.

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I was born and raised in this area, so I'm sitting

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right smack dab in the middle of Oklahoma City,

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excited after game two of the NBA finals where

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the Oklahoma City Thunder finally got a victory.

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So we're sitting one on one in the NBA finals

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and loving every minute of it. Brilliant. Well,

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you mentioned about growing up there. Let's start

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at the very beginning of your story then. So

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tell me where you were born and tell me a little

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bit about your family dynamic, what your parents

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did, how many siblings. Pretty interesting. I

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was born in Oklahoma City. I was actually, I've

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never met my parents, so I was adopted at three

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days old by whom I know as my parents. My mom

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and dad. were from this area. They adopted me,

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as I said, at three days old, only child. So

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I had a really good upbringing, not a lot of

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money, which that we all know that's not important

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in life, but enough to sustain. But my dad worked

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at FAA. My mom worked at Quite a bit in nursing

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homes. She actually got injured at home and wasn't

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able to work there as much, but she worked in

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a nursing home. Loving family. Played a lot of

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sports growing up. Was not a great athlete, but

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I loved the game. Played baseball, football,

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basketball. I played basketball in my 40s, and

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unfortunately I got hurt. I was in over 40 league,

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probably should have realized that that was telling

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you you're too old to play. But, you know, family

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dynamics were really good. Big extended family,

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but, you know, again, only child. Went to high

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school at Moore, Moore, Oklahoma, which is a

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suburb of Oklahoma City. Graduated there, started

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going to college at a small college here in the...

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metro area of Oklahoma City. Didn't really know

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what I wanted to do. I got lucky to get out of

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high school, quite frankly. Thought I would go

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the business route. Had an uncle that was a very

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good businessman. Started going to school, really

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didn't know my way. Thought I was going to be

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an accountant. I was trying to do something on

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the business side and had a buddy that actually

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was testing for the fire department and ran into

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him one day on 12th Street, which is an area

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we used to cruise up and down, wasting a lot

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of gas, doing a lot of crazy stuff. And he was

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testing for the fire department and he started

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talking about it. And it was like it hit me.

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It's like to me, you know, I have a religious

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background. It's to me a God thing and felt like

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that where I was called to be and started testing

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at the time. In 1989, we had three firefighters

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that were killed in Oklahoma City in a flashover

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fire. After that, they passed a sales tax, which

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was to hire 200 additional firefighters. And

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so that kind of created a hiring boom in this

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area. It was also pretty close to about 25 years

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since they had. introduced the third platoon

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system in Oklahoma City. And so it was really

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at a time of a lot of turnover, a lot of hiring.

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So I was testing all throughout the metropolitan

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area. It was about the time backdraft came out.

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So that increased a lot of people that wanted

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to be firefighters. And so I had actually tested

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in the metro, tested all around. I actually was

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applying at Phoenix, Dallas, Denver. when I got

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hired in this area, I just want to be a firefighter,

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really a big city firefighter. So I know I went

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from dynamics of family and to, to my fire experience,

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but that's kind of my family background, my experience

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trying to get in the fire service, all wrapped

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into one. I'm going to go all the way back. There's

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lots of things I want to ask about other things

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that you've said, but with people that be on

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the show that have been adopted, that have been

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fostered, I mean, through some of those systems,

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there's a spectrum of different stories and experiences.

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What was your kind of journey as far as the curiosity

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of finding biological parents, especially with

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this whole DNA thing that's become more popular

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recently versus, you know, the man and the woman

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that actually raised you as your parents? I appreciate

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you asking. You know, everybody has. I've had

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friends that's gone through some challenges with

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being adopted. And, you know, I my parents told

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me as far back as I can remember, I was adopted.

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So I've known my whole life. Matter of fact,

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I would brag about it. You know, they'd always

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say, we chose you. You know, other parents, they're

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stuck with their kids. We chose you. So I was

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fortunate. You know, my parents were loving parents.

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My wife says I grew up in the leave it to beaver

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household. Really, it was a good upbringing.

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So I didn't have any challenges. My A score is

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not high. You know, that adverse childhood experience.

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I have a very low A score. So in that area. So

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it was it was a very good background. You know,

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and you asked about I've asked. I have three

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children of my biological three. wonderful girls.

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And, you know, they had more interest in that

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just because you said of what is your history,

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your background. So I had an opportunity. I actually

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have a picture of my dad, my biological dad,

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my phone. He has passed away. But, you know,

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it's interesting. There's a lot of genealogy

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out there. I did the 23andMe. to find you know

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some of that background because you're always

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my biggest concern was the health of my kids

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how could it affect them so i did some testing

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in that area but i've never really had that burning

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desire to find my biological parents i i have

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probably somewhat of an interest because i was

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told i had siblings you know i would love to

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see What do they look like? That's kind of interesting.

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But for me, I'm pretty blessed that I never had

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that burning desire to do that. And that was

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probably because I was fortunate. I was adopted

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from birth. They took me home in three days.

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My family accepted me as my own. Matter of fact,

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I have people all the time that say, my dad's

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passed on. A lot of people say you have a lot

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of mannerisms like your dad. And it was interesting.

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He was, you know, nature versus nurture. But

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he was not, you know, not blood. But you probably

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would have thought he was if you'd have been

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around. So I'm very blessed in that. Nothing

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bad. And I know everyone has different experiences,

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different challenges. I was just fortunate that

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mine was all blessed. That's so great to hear.

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And I want to get to the ACE score in a little

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while because that will factor in, I'm sure,

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with some of the trauma that you've had in your

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career. Yes, sir. But when I think back, one

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of the bad examples of finding biological parents

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was Kevin Berthia, who, if you've ever seen that

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iconic picture of a man on the Golden Gate Bridge

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with his back to, you know, the drop, and then

00:11:27.929 --> 00:11:29.909
there's a CHP officer talking to him, that's

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Kevin Briggs and Kevin Berthia. Kevin was adopted,

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found his biological parents, and, you know,

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they weren't. At that point, you know, nice people,

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they didn't seem to take an interest. And so

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all his kind of the story he told himself what

00:11:43.809 --> 00:11:45.789
it was going to be like to find his real parents,

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you know, were kind of debunked and it was very

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sad. But then I've had a couple of guys or seen

00:11:50.970 --> 00:11:52.389
a couple of stories. One of them came on the

00:11:52.389 --> 00:11:57.529
show where a someone had found a sibling, like

00:11:57.529 --> 00:12:00.220
you said. He was a police officer and the sibling

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raised him in a completely different environment,

00:12:02.759 --> 00:12:04.899
also became a police officer. And this happened

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twice, two different stories. So it is interesting.

00:12:07.779 --> 00:12:10.080
But like you said, it can send you in a number

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of ways, you know, either either positive or

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negative, sadly. I just for me, it was never

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that burning desire. So, again, I know for others

00:12:21.279 --> 00:12:23.139
it's different, but I was pretty blessed in that

00:12:23.139 --> 00:12:25.639
area. Did you have any firefighters or first

00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:27.440
responders in your family or extended family?

00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:32.860
So my uncle and my family I was raised in, I

00:12:32.860 --> 00:12:37.080
had an uncle that was a volunteer firefighter.

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And I remember going and watching some of the

00:12:38.980 --> 00:12:42.139
training. So that was very interesting. My grandfather

00:12:42.139 --> 00:12:45.919
built a fire station. He was a mason. So he built

00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:47.919
one of the fire stations. So, you know, kind

00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:50.419
of a little bit in that area, but no one really

00:12:50.419 --> 00:12:53.580
I was extremely close to. My uncle I was pretty

00:12:53.580 --> 00:12:56.779
close with, but he was a volunteer. just being

00:12:56.779 --> 00:12:58.740
around that a little bit, but not one of those.

00:12:58.860 --> 00:13:02.059
I grew up down the street from a fire station.

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So I remember that fire station, always seeing

00:13:06.039 --> 00:13:08.799
them go out and, you know, just being around

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it, but never really, you know, in it every day.

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The 1989 Iron Duty death with this 2025 lens

00:13:17.580 --> 00:13:20.039
that you have now, when you reflect back, obviously

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hearing a lot of it through history. What, if

00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:25.740
any, were the preventable elements that resulted

00:13:25.740 --> 00:13:28.200
in those deaths that today hopefully wouldn't

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happen again? Well, it's pretty. I really try

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to tell that story a lot. I'm a firm believer.

00:13:36.259 --> 00:13:39.299
It not only changed the face of our organization,

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it changed the face of our city. Being the fire

00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:46.919
chief, I'm fortunate I actually have the investigation,

00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:49.779
the review of that. I went back and actually

00:13:49.779 --> 00:13:52.580
reviewed that. You know, it's interesting because

00:13:52.580 --> 00:13:55.860
a lot was hand drawn in the areas they were located

00:13:55.860 --> 00:14:00.379
at. It was typed up. But I actually have done

00:14:00.379 --> 00:14:04.440
when we did the 25 year anniversary of it. I'm

00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:07.700
sorry, the 30 year anniversary of it. I actually

00:14:07.700 --> 00:14:14.379
talked about it and actually did a. a Teams chat

00:14:14.379 --> 00:14:17.080
with the entire department and went over it because

00:14:17.080 --> 00:14:19.360
I think it's important to know the history of

00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:22.519
our fire department, where we are today. You

00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:25.740
know, these three firefighters really, I believe,

00:14:25.879 --> 00:14:29.120
you know, their ultimate sacrifice changed our

00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:31.820
organization. But, you know, a lot of the things

00:14:31.820 --> 00:14:34.340
have changed. You brought up what? How could

00:14:34.340 --> 00:14:36.679
we keep it from happening today? Well, some of

00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:40.200
it was just the sheer of their PPE. At the time,

00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:42.480
we were wearing three -quarter length coats,

00:14:42.820 --> 00:14:47.360
the pull -up pant, the boots that they wore,

00:14:47.700 --> 00:14:51.980
day boots, if you will. They had an old low -pressure

00:14:51.980 --> 00:14:56.519
hose for their SCBA. You know, and some of their

00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:59.299
tactics. They were a very aggressive organization.

00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:01.779
Matter of fact, it happened at two of our busiest

00:15:01.779 --> 00:15:04.279
fire stations. And two of the firefighters that

00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:08.059
died were captains. Captain Jimmy Ayers and Captain

00:15:08.059 --> 00:15:11.419
Benny Zellner and firefighter Jeffrey Lindsey.

00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:14.460
And I'll tell you, I heard a lot of stories about

00:15:14.460 --> 00:15:17.440
the two officers. One of them was on Squad 21,

00:15:17.659 --> 00:15:21.259
which is the busiest apparatus in our city. At

00:15:21.259 --> 00:15:23.480
the time, we only had five squads, and we got

00:15:23.480 --> 00:15:26.419
a squad on every structure fire. So they were

00:15:26.419 --> 00:15:29.559
seasoned firefighters. The captain that was on

00:15:29.559 --> 00:15:32.700
engine eight was Benny Zellner, and everybody

00:15:32.700 --> 00:15:36.120
spoke highly of him, how aggressive firefighter

00:15:36.120 --> 00:15:40.200
he was, a salty firefighter. And then Jeffrey

00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:42.419
Lindsey was a two -and -a -half, three -year

00:15:42.419 --> 00:15:47.100
firefighter. But he was a legacy firefighter.

00:15:47.120 --> 00:15:49.940
His dad was on the job, was a captain, and his

00:15:49.940 --> 00:15:52.440
brother was on the job. And unfortunately, they

00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:55.840
made that incident. So it was very tough. But

00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:59.539
when you look at that, what happened after that,

00:15:59.659 --> 00:16:03.820
our city for years, unfortunately, had not passed

00:16:03.820 --> 00:16:07.100
any sales tax, had not passed geo bonds that

00:16:07.100 --> 00:16:09.940
we ran. All of these initiatives to improve the

00:16:09.940 --> 00:16:12.980
city failed. At the time, there wasn't a lot

00:16:12.980 --> 00:16:17.139
of... belief in city government. We had had,

00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:20.179
we were, uh, we're always been a big oil city

00:16:20.179 --> 00:16:22.840
at the time. We had had some challenges with

00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:25.639
the oil, you know, oil can be up or down at the

00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:27.879
time it was down. So there's a lot of funding

00:16:27.879 --> 00:16:30.259
challenges in the city. We had actually a bank

00:16:30.259 --> 00:16:32.600
that went bankrupt and we, when those things

00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:34.620
start happening, it's pretty challenging. So

00:16:34.620 --> 00:16:37.080
people would, were not very, didn't have a lot

00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:41.480
of belief in the city. Right prior to this happening,

00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:44.659
they had ran an initiative to improve public

00:16:44.659 --> 00:16:48.360
safety. But on that, it wasn't just dedicated

00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:51.340
to public safety. It was other areas, and they

00:16:51.340 --> 00:16:53.360
didn't feel comfortable with it, so they didn't

00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:56.340
pass the initiative. Unfortunately, these three

00:16:56.340 --> 00:17:00.980
firefighters died, and then a petition from leaders

00:17:00.980 --> 00:17:04.420
within the community, our local, our union, our

00:17:04.420 --> 00:17:07.579
FOP, got together and they re -ran it, and it

00:17:07.579 --> 00:17:12.430
passed. And after that, that passed. It changed

00:17:12.430 --> 00:17:16.289
the entire complexity of complexion of the organization,

00:17:16.569 --> 00:17:19.990
the city. And then after subsequently after that,

00:17:20.049 --> 00:17:22.890
we passed what's called a map sales tax where

00:17:22.890 --> 00:17:26.450
we built a new arena. We built a new ballpark.

00:17:26.470 --> 00:17:29.049
We started seeing these things generate and happen

00:17:29.049 --> 00:17:32.430
with our city. And then ultimately they passed

00:17:32.430 --> 00:17:34.809
this three additional times. We're on the fourth

00:17:34.809 --> 00:17:37.960
version. where we built a new arena that got

00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:40.660
the thunder here. Now we're moving forward with

00:17:40.660 --> 00:17:43.720
a new type petition to build another arena. I

00:17:43.720 --> 00:17:45.859
believe the catalyst that I always talk about

00:17:45.859 --> 00:17:48.480
to our firefighters was the change in our city,

00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:50.660
not just our fire department, our police department,

00:17:50.779 --> 00:17:53.259
was those three firefighters dying, but the complete

00:17:53.259 --> 00:17:57.440
change in our city was based off that catalyst

00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:01.279
as well. Unfortunate they paid the ultimate sacrifice,

00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:05.059
but... I'm very proud that they did not die in

00:18:05.059 --> 00:18:07.740
vain, that we were able to make changes. I would

00:18:07.740 --> 00:18:10.119
go back and change it a minute to keep those

00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:12.019
three firefighters alive. But unfortunately,

00:18:12.180 --> 00:18:15.440
that didn't happen. And something good, positive

00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:17.700
came from that. So we've been able to make a

00:18:17.700 --> 00:18:20.599
lot of changes and we studied that. I believe

00:18:20.599 --> 00:18:22.759
because of that, we've become a better organization.

00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:26.640
And speaking to that also, when you have those

00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:29.640
unfortunate events at the time. We knew that

00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:32.559
a lot of our firefighters were Vietnam -era firefighters,

00:18:32.980 --> 00:18:36.700
or at least our leadership was. So there wasn't

00:18:36.700 --> 00:18:41.160
a lot of understanding fully of PTSD and all

00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:44.880
of those challenges. But we did recognize through

00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:48.319
that incident we need to bring in some CISM.

00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:50.819
Back then they called it CISD, critical incident

00:18:50.819 --> 00:18:55.099
stress debriefing. So we were able to bring in

00:18:55.099 --> 00:18:58.299
a group out of Louisiana. And they came up here

00:18:58.299 --> 00:19:02.460
and taught us CISD. So out of that, we built

00:19:02.460 --> 00:19:05.079
our first critical incident stress debriefing

00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:09.359
team that was a huge factor in play in our bombing

00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:11.720
to help our firefighters when we went through

00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:16.279
that traumatic event. And so unfortunately, that

00:19:16.279 --> 00:19:18.960
happened. It not only changed the face of our

00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:21.900
city and organization, it helped us to be prepared

00:19:21.900 --> 00:19:25.859
for what came at a later date. You mentioned

00:19:25.859 --> 00:19:29.980
as well that the generation aged out that were

00:19:29.980 --> 00:19:32.480
hired for the third platoon. Well, now as I sit

00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:34.640
here in Florida, there's a revolution happening

00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:37.819
of a fourth platoon. Yes, sir. What was it, if

00:19:37.819 --> 00:19:40.779
you even are aware of this, that even invoked

00:19:40.779 --> 00:19:43.339
the conversation of a third platoon all those

00:19:43.339 --> 00:19:47.240
years ago? I'm a traditionalist. I like looking

00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:50.819
at those things. You know, there's not really

00:19:50.819 --> 00:19:53.859
a lot of data. I had my first officer when I

00:19:53.859 --> 00:19:56.769
came on the job. was hired. He was the third

00:19:56.769 --> 00:20:01.109
platoon guy that got hired. And actually, subsequently,

00:20:01.369 --> 00:20:04.069
his son was my ride out when I was a battalion

00:20:04.069 --> 00:20:07.250
chief. So we became very close. There wasn't

00:20:07.250 --> 00:20:09.390
a really a lot of I think it was just traction

00:20:09.390 --> 00:20:12.089
of where things were moving. You know, there

00:20:12.089 --> 00:20:15.589
was a lot of Back then, you worked 15 days on,

00:20:15.690 --> 00:20:18.329
15 days off, you know, in a month. You know,

00:20:18.349 --> 00:20:20.490
it was a one -on, one -off, one -on, one -off.

00:20:20.549 --> 00:20:23.750
It was very taxing. I think as, you know, we

00:20:23.750 --> 00:20:26.569
were becoming, you know, the call volumes were

00:20:26.569 --> 00:20:28.950
starting to creep up. I think we were moving

00:20:28.950 --> 00:20:31.690
more into, we've always been involved in emergency

00:20:31.690 --> 00:20:34.549
medical response. So we were involved in that

00:20:34.549 --> 00:20:38.869
area, that era of response. There was some of

00:20:38.869 --> 00:20:41.369
that evolving, but I haven't been able to say

00:20:41.369 --> 00:20:43.990
this is the exact reason, but I know that was

00:20:43.990 --> 00:20:47.269
talked about of some of the reasoning to move

00:20:47.269 --> 00:20:51.230
in that direction for that third platoon. I don't

00:20:51.230 --> 00:20:53.269
think they understood work -life balance back

00:20:53.269 --> 00:20:56.369
then, but a lot of that was probably to allow

00:20:56.369 --> 00:21:02.069
more time off so they weren't challenged so much

00:21:02.069 --> 00:21:04.829
in that era. Yeah, it's interesting because as

00:21:04.829 --> 00:21:07.809
we sit here and have this conversation now, You

00:21:07.809 --> 00:21:12.049
talk about the lack of support through financial

00:21:12.049 --> 00:21:16.029
decisions of cities and counties factoring into

00:21:16.029 --> 00:21:19.049
the ability to staff. We talk about now, again,

00:21:19.109 --> 00:21:21.769
workload. And if you look at the increase in

00:21:21.769 --> 00:21:23.950
workload over the last 10 years, I mean, it's

00:21:23.950 --> 00:21:27.950
a huge spike now. And so it's so interesting

00:21:27.950 --> 00:21:29.829
talking to you because you've got this lens on

00:21:29.829 --> 00:21:32.829
not only an organization that moved from two

00:21:32.829 --> 00:21:37.480
to three platoons, but also. The tragic events

00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:40.319
that can happen if you don't support the areas

00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:42.299
around a fire department, which ends up with

00:21:42.299 --> 00:21:46.319
firefighter funerals. Yes, and unfortunately,

00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:49.900
history shows that we learn through tragedy.

00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:53.559
Unfortunately, you see a lot of NFPA standards.

00:21:53.819 --> 00:21:57.420
You see a lot of Department of Labor OSHA guidelines

00:21:57.420 --> 00:22:01.089
because of tragedy. Unfortunately, some of those

00:22:01.089 --> 00:22:04.769
are what cause changed. And I appreciate, you

00:22:04.769 --> 00:22:08.009
know, I've been reading a lot as well about going

00:22:08.009 --> 00:22:11.130
to the four platoon. I know it works. I know

00:22:11.130 --> 00:22:13.789
there's a lot of it, but you hit the nail on

00:22:13.789 --> 00:22:17.009
the head. It's a tough area. I think smaller

00:22:17.009 --> 00:22:20.190
organizations can maybe figure it out sooner

00:22:20.190 --> 00:22:22.750
than large metropolitans just because of the

00:22:22.750 --> 00:22:26.289
masses of people. But hopefully in the future

00:22:26.289 --> 00:22:29.809
that we'll see that there are some. talk and

00:22:29.809 --> 00:22:32.430
discussions and moving in that direction. It

00:22:32.430 --> 00:22:35.990
just, you know, it's just about funding, unfortunately.

00:22:36.329 --> 00:22:39.470
Now, we're very well funded, if you will, because

00:22:39.470 --> 00:22:42.849
of the sales tax. Again, game changer for us,

00:22:42.970 --> 00:22:46.130
but there are still limitations, unfortunately.

00:22:46.369 --> 00:22:48.670
And we're a growing city. We're in the process

00:22:48.670 --> 00:22:51.950
of trying to expand our organization to cover.

00:22:52.509 --> 00:22:58.150
We have about 710 ,000 residents, but we... have

00:22:58.150 --> 00:23:01.549
about 621 square miles, not about, we do cover

00:23:01.549 --> 00:23:05.009
621 square miles, which actually goes into four

00:23:05.009 --> 00:23:08.230
counties in our area. So we're very, we're not

00:23:08.230 --> 00:23:11.529
a densely populated city, but it's a very large

00:23:11.529 --> 00:23:15.789
city to cover. What is your contrast between

00:23:15.789 --> 00:23:19.230
the competitive nature that you entered back

00:23:19.230 --> 00:23:21.890
in 91 versus what you're seeing today in 2025?

00:23:23.930 --> 00:23:29.190
I wish we had the numbers. I've spoken to several

00:23:29.190 --> 00:23:32.250
organizations that they're begging people to

00:23:32.250 --> 00:23:36.009
come be firefighters. We still have a good number.

00:23:37.150 --> 00:23:40.589
We're probably about 50%, honestly. We used to

00:23:40.589 --> 00:23:43.009
open up an application process, and we'd probably

00:23:43.009 --> 00:23:47.769
average about 1 ,500 applicants. We do an application

00:23:47.769 --> 00:23:50.089
process now where we're anywhere from 800 to

00:23:50.089 --> 00:23:55.609
1 ,000. I'm very proud of our hiring process.

00:23:55.730 --> 00:23:59.490
And what I mean by that is there are some organizations

00:23:59.490 --> 00:24:02.130
that I fully understand it that require someone

00:24:02.130 --> 00:24:05.250
to have their firefighter credentials to be a

00:24:05.250 --> 00:24:09.789
paramedic and all of that. Ours is pretty basic,

00:24:09.890 --> 00:24:14.569
18 years old, high school diploma. I would probably

00:24:14.569 --> 00:24:17.670
like to see that age maybe up a little bit, but

00:24:17.670 --> 00:24:21.450
the reality. What I love, the fact of we hire

00:24:21.450 --> 00:24:25.289
the best candidates and train them. And so you

00:24:25.289 --> 00:24:28.890
don't, you're not losing that. 25 -year -old

00:24:28.890 --> 00:24:32.170
or 28 -year -old that has a family that has a

00:24:32.170 --> 00:24:35.109
profession but has a desire to move into a new

00:24:35.109 --> 00:24:38.369
space that can't go get their firefighter one

00:24:38.369 --> 00:24:41.329
and two or can't go get their paramedic. It is

00:24:41.329 --> 00:24:43.650
a little bit for us to bring them to that level.

00:24:44.049 --> 00:24:47.470
But what I've seen is we hire people to our values

00:24:47.470 --> 00:24:50.450
within our organization, and then we provide

00:24:50.450 --> 00:24:52.650
the training so we're able to meet that. And

00:24:52.650 --> 00:24:56.369
it's really kept our numbers up. And it allows

00:24:56.369 --> 00:25:00.630
us to really recruit to our community and what

00:25:00.630 --> 00:25:04.349
we look like and how we feel that. So I never,

00:25:04.569 --> 00:25:07.910
it's funny, I think we all know this as organizations,

00:25:08.210 --> 00:25:09.910
we always look at other departments and say,

00:25:09.930 --> 00:25:12.150
I can't believe they do that. That's crazy. And

00:25:12.150 --> 00:25:15.950
there are obviously best practices. But I think

00:25:15.950 --> 00:25:18.950
what you have to do is identify for your community,

00:25:19.089 --> 00:25:21.690
what's the best practice? Because I've seen some

00:25:21.690 --> 00:25:25.900
out. outstanding projects and programs that people

00:25:25.900 --> 00:25:28.759
do that wouldn't work in our community. But we

00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:30.839
can take and learn from that, maybe adjust it

00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:33.380
and build a little bit and make it work for our

00:25:33.380 --> 00:25:35.779
community. And I think that's what we have to

00:25:35.779 --> 00:25:37.839
learn within hiring because there are some organizations

00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:39.619
that couldn't do it. They've got to have trained

00:25:39.619 --> 00:25:42.220
people to come on board. We're fortunate enough.

00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:45.319
We run a very robust academy. We spend a lot

00:25:45.319 --> 00:25:47.359
of dollars sending people to paramedic school.

00:25:47.619 --> 00:25:49.720
We allow them to go once they get their year

00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:52.500
on. And we were fortunate. Last year, we had

00:25:52.500 --> 00:25:55.759
41 of our firefighters in paramedic school. Because

00:25:55.759 --> 00:25:57.720
we really pushed that, it's become part of our

00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:00.380
culture. And we're able to accomplish it without

00:26:00.380 --> 00:26:03.440
requiring that of someone coming on with that

00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:05.579
training. So we're fortunate in that area. So

00:26:05.579 --> 00:26:08.380
the numbers are not where they used to be, but

00:26:08.380 --> 00:26:12.019
I would say that we still get the quality candidates.

00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:14.700
And I know that's challenging in some areas.

00:26:15.390 --> 00:26:17.390
You mentioned about the age. This has been an

00:26:17.390 --> 00:26:19.190
interesting conversation recently because a lot

00:26:19.190 --> 00:26:21.730
of the people I talk to in the kind of neuroscience

00:26:21.730 --> 00:26:24.410
and mental health space talk about the development

00:26:24.410 --> 00:26:28.309
of the brain and suggest that maybe closer to

00:26:28.309 --> 00:26:31.849
PD, 21 would probably be a better age for the

00:26:31.849 --> 00:26:34.109
fire service. And I would argue that of all the

00:26:34.109 --> 00:26:36.829
occupations out there, a firefighter, EMT slash

00:26:36.829 --> 00:26:39.549
paramedic probably sees more horrible stuff than

00:26:39.549 --> 00:26:42.150
almost any other profession. So when you talk

00:26:42.150 --> 00:26:43.869
about the age, what is your perception on that?

00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:47.960
I agree. I will tell you, and this doesn't always

00:26:47.960 --> 00:26:51.599
equate. A lot of our younger firefighters are

00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:54.160
legacy firefighters. What I mean is they've grown

00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:56.599
up around it. Now, just because you've grown

00:26:56.599 --> 00:26:59.380
up around it doesn't always mean that that equates

00:26:59.380 --> 00:27:03.259
to you are going to be able to deal with this

00:27:03.259 --> 00:27:06.640
trauma that you're faced. But I do believe that

00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:09.759
you come into that with the understanding of

00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:14.240
what's there. But it's still I. It's not something

00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:16.839
I pushed hard on because we don't see very many

00:27:16.839 --> 00:27:20.299
that we hire that young. And quite frankly, those

00:27:20.299 --> 00:27:22.539
that we have hired at that have been able to

00:27:22.539 --> 00:27:26.799
be very successful. But I do also agree. I think

00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:29.099
there is a part of that. You hit the nail on

00:27:29.099 --> 00:27:31.640
the head. Science is science. And I think some

00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:35.009
of that is. At 18, they're not fully developed.

00:27:35.230 --> 00:27:37.190
And there are some areas of that that could stunt

00:27:37.190 --> 00:27:40.509
that or the challenge to deal with the trauma.

00:27:40.650 --> 00:27:42.609
And so there's a lot of that. I think we have

00:27:42.609 --> 00:27:45.990
to, you know, we're able to, we used to do a

00:27:45.990 --> 00:27:49.410
lot of things on feel and what we thought. And

00:27:49.410 --> 00:27:52.029
now we can do it through studies and reasoning

00:27:52.029 --> 00:27:54.569
and really be able to make educated decisions.

00:27:54.690 --> 00:27:57.410
And I think that's, I'm really proud of. the

00:27:57.410 --> 00:27:59.549
fire service that we're moving in that direction.

00:28:00.230 --> 00:28:02.410
We're partnering with OU right now doing some

00:28:02.410 --> 00:28:05.950
studies with Bunker Gear. We've got a graduate

00:28:05.950 --> 00:28:08.470
assistant that's coming on from OSU that we're

00:28:08.470 --> 00:28:10.569
actually contracting with that's going to be

00:28:10.569 --> 00:28:12.509
some of our strength and conditioning and other

00:28:12.509 --> 00:28:15.210
areas working with our athletic trainer. So I'm

00:28:15.210 --> 00:28:17.849
proud of that, that we're using that education

00:28:17.849 --> 00:28:20.109
piece to really grow, but we still have a long

00:28:20.109 --> 00:28:23.069
ways to go. Well, going back to your journey

00:28:23.069 --> 00:28:24.910
into the fire service, obviously there was a

00:28:24.910 --> 00:28:27.309
very significant event. Pretty early on. But

00:28:27.309 --> 00:28:30.109
prior to that, talk to me about your on -ramp

00:28:30.109 --> 00:28:33.109
experience and any kind of notable calls at that

00:28:33.109 --> 00:28:37.150
point. Now, are you saying about my experience

00:28:37.150 --> 00:28:39.630
coming into the job? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

00:28:39.710 --> 00:28:45.089
Just those first few years prior to 95. So it's

00:28:45.089 --> 00:28:48.170
interesting. My daughter, I use this because

00:28:48.170 --> 00:28:50.170
she and I were so much alike. My oldest daughter

00:28:50.170 --> 00:28:54.789
is a nurse. I use example when she I really didn't

00:28:54.789 --> 00:28:56.710
know how she was one of those that if a kid was

00:28:56.710 --> 00:28:59.970
eating food at school and she could see the food,

00:29:00.029 --> 00:29:02.369
she would get sick at school. And she had a lot

00:29:02.369 --> 00:29:06.549
of anxiety in different spaces. But she became

00:29:06.549 --> 00:29:10.069
a nurse and she as she was going through the

00:29:10.069 --> 00:29:12.950
process like. wiping someone's rear and doing

00:29:12.950 --> 00:29:15.029
stuff like that. She like jumped in and said,

00:29:15.049 --> 00:29:17.750
I'm doing it because I want to know that I can

00:29:17.750 --> 00:29:20.109
do the job and keep, I was kind of that way.

00:29:20.170 --> 00:29:23.519
So it's funny. I use that example because. When

00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:25.680
I looked at something for me, when it was work,

00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:28.140
it was a challenge, I just jumped in and did

00:29:28.140 --> 00:29:30.599
it. There was no doubt about it. And I think

00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:32.940
that's what you have to do. And that's how I

00:29:32.940 --> 00:29:35.559
was as a firefighter. If there was something

00:29:35.559 --> 00:29:37.799
that bothered me or something I was apprehensive

00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:40.259
of, I leaned into it. I would make sure that

00:29:40.259 --> 00:29:41.880
I would jump in and do it. And I was that way

00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.460
as a firefighter. So anything that I was apprehensive

00:29:45.460 --> 00:29:47.799
about, I leaned into it and pushed that much

00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:51.289
harder. My first couple years after I... um decided

00:29:51.289 --> 00:29:53.390
i want to be a firefighter kind of talked about

00:29:53.390 --> 00:29:56.140
that moving in that space It was like everything

00:29:56.140 --> 00:29:59.079
about me was about the fire service. I was going

00:29:59.079 --> 00:30:01.579
to a small college here in the metro. I moved

00:30:01.579 --> 00:30:05.200
to OSU, OKC, which was a technology school, and

00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:07.500
they had a fire program. So I was doing my fire

00:30:07.500 --> 00:30:12.160
associates and municipal fire protection. I took

00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:14.779
the first EMT program they had there. I didn't

00:30:14.779 --> 00:30:16.720
even really know what it was. They came out this

00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:21.099
class. It was in 1989, 1990. And they said, hey,

00:30:21.180 --> 00:30:23.910
this is an EMT program. I went to the... The

00:30:23.910 --> 00:30:25.589
person that was over the program, I said, will

00:30:25.589 --> 00:30:27.210
this help me be a firefighter? They said, it

00:30:27.210 --> 00:30:28.670
definitely can't hurt you. That's where we're

00:30:28.670 --> 00:30:31.869
going. So I took the very first EMT class they

00:30:31.869 --> 00:30:34.609
had. So the way I was as a firefighter, I was

00:30:34.609 --> 00:30:37.970
all in. Everything that I wanted to do was about

00:30:37.970 --> 00:30:41.349
the fire department. And, you know, when I got

00:30:41.349 --> 00:30:43.829
the opportunity in recruit school, everything

00:30:43.829 --> 00:30:47.400
about. me was a firefighter everything my focus

00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:51.480
probably to a detriment honestly with some relationships

00:30:51.480 --> 00:30:54.900
and how I did things because everything revolved

00:30:54.900 --> 00:30:56.660
around the fire department and I think that's

00:30:56.660 --> 00:31:00.700
a challenge sometimes it took me years to undo

00:31:00.700 --> 00:31:07.140
some of that and some bad relationships and part

00:31:07.140 --> 00:31:11.039
of that I own was the because I was so focused

00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:14.160
in that area but You know, back then we really

00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:16.579
didn't talk about trauma and the things that

00:31:16.579 --> 00:31:19.240
we've seen. And I still remember my first full

00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:22.279
arrest was an infant. I still remember working

00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:24.440
that infant in the back of the ambulance. And

00:31:24.440 --> 00:31:26.539
it was right by a hospital. I remember the street

00:31:26.539 --> 00:31:29.500
we turned down and everything. But those are

00:31:29.500 --> 00:31:32.240
areas back then you you just it was part of me

00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:35.579
doing the job. So I just did it. There wasn't

00:31:35.579 --> 00:31:38.839
things that I thought about. And I was fortunate.

00:31:39.640 --> 00:31:42.259
whether it be because of the way I was built,

00:31:42.440 --> 00:31:45.579
that I didn't have any adverse effects of that.

00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:48.859
You know, obviously, as we went down later down

00:31:48.859 --> 00:31:51.359
the road, I'm not afraid to admit that I've had

00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:53.640
some things that have bothered me and I've sought

00:31:53.640 --> 00:31:56.519
counseling and I'm trying to do things in a positive

00:31:56.519 --> 00:32:00.339
way. to really move forward but my first couple

00:32:00.339 --> 00:32:03.380
years I was all in I was all about the fire department

00:32:03.380 --> 00:32:06.119
I went to training on my days off you know back

00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:08.460
then firefighters worked a day off job that was

00:32:08.460 --> 00:32:10.500
just kind of the norm especially in our organization

00:32:10.500 --> 00:32:12.559
when they hired you they'd say okay what do you

00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:15.880
do they wanted to know what was your trade off

00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:19.279
the job I had no trades but I tried about everything

00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:23.720
I roofed houses mowed yards I framed I've done

00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:26.619
it all but At the end, I finally came back. I

00:32:26.619 --> 00:32:28.180
want to do something on my days off that helps

00:32:28.180 --> 00:32:30.640
me as a firefighter. But those first two years

00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:34.319
I did, you know, focus all in everything about

00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:39.480
the job. So walk me through April 19th, 1995.

00:32:41.380 --> 00:32:44.240
So it's interesting. I was in the northeast side

00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:46.279
of town, had about three and a half years on

00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:49.440
the job. I've done a lot of rescue training.

00:32:49.539 --> 00:32:52.039
I wrote a squad. Back then we had six squads,

00:32:52.059 --> 00:32:56.200
squads in our city. Basically, they responded

00:32:56.200 --> 00:32:59.400
on every car wreck, every structure fire got

00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:03.500
a squad, and they made all the first in medical

00:33:03.500 --> 00:33:06.019
calls in that district. So it was a pretty active,

00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:09.380
at the time for us, apparatus. So I'd done a

00:33:09.380 --> 00:33:12.240
lot of, I'd done all my ropes training, confined

00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:16.680
space, extrication. I taught extrication a lot.

00:33:16.759 --> 00:33:19.940
I did a lot of that, vehicle extrication. So

00:33:19.940 --> 00:33:22.440
I was, you know, what I thought I knew, I was

00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:26.109
in the rescue world. Um, but, um, that happened.

00:33:26.170 --> 00:33:29.849
So April 19th, 1995, I was married at the time,

00:33:29.849 --> 00:33:33.609
uh, to my first wife. Um, and I, I don't have

00:33:33.609 --> 00:33:35.670
a bunch as I've just been married since then

00:33:35.670 --> 00:33:39.369
one time, but, um, I had my, my daughter was

00:33:39.369 --> 00:33:41.869
born. I actually was going to paramedics. I'd

00:33:41.869 --> 00:33:44.730
gone to back then you did MT basic intermediate

00:33:44.730 --> 00:33:48.640
paramedic. I. finished my intermediate class,

00:33:48.940 --> 00:33:53.819
and then my daughter was born May 27, 1994. So

00:33:53.819 --> 00:33:56.119
I took some time off, had a new daughter. I was

00:33:56.119 --> 00:33:58.460
planning on going back to paramedic school. It

00:33:58.460 --> 00:34:00.339
was almost a year later, I was looking at that

00:34:00.339 --> 00:34:04.099
fall to go back to paramedic school. April 19,

00:34:04.380 --> 00:34:08.360
1995, I was off duty that day. Happened on a

00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:10.940
red shift day. I was a blue shifter, a B shifter.

00:34:11.940 --> 00:34:15.949
We lived about... 40 minutes, probably southwest

00:34:15.949 --> 00:34:19.030
of the city. My dad grew up on a piece of land

00:34:19.030 --> 00:34:22.550
out in what's called Bridge Creek. I had a house

00:34:22.550 --> 00:34:26.409
out there, staying there. And it was a, I look

00:34:26.409 --> 00:34:29.329
outside here today, you know, very sunny, nice.

00:34:29.590 --> 00:34:32.070
You know, April day in Oklahoma, it can rain

00:34:32.070 --> 00:34:35.150
or be nice. You know, it's kind of variable in

00:34:35.150 --> 00:34:38.690
that area. But that day, I remember I was watching

00:34:38.690 --> 00:34:42.989
TV, got up that morning, day off. I was on my

00:34:42.989 --> 00:34:45.449
four day. And I heard something. I thought it

00:34:45.449 --> 00:34:47.570
was thunder in Oklahoma, you know, in April.

00:34:48.050 --> 00:34:50.469
Thunder's normal. But I opened the door and it

00:34:50.469 --> 00:34:55.190
was sunny, you know, beautiful spring day. Shut

00:34:55.190 --> 00:34:57.650
the door. Didn't really think nothing of it.

00:34:58.429 --> 00:35:03.010
Sat down. Regis and Kathy was on TV back then.

00:35:03.050 --> 00:35:06.329
They were real big. And Channel 9, I still remember

00:35:06.329 --> 00:35:10.309
it pops up and they say, hey. Something's happened

00:35:10.309 --> 00:35:13.150
downtown Oklahoma City. We think they've had

00:35:13.150 --> 00:35:16.010
maybe a natural gas explosion. We've got a helicopter

00:35:16.010 --> 00:35:19.230
en route. You can see the helicopter. And the

00:35:19.230 --> 00:35:21.949
helicopter flew and panned around to the front

00:35:21.949 --> 00:35:24.389
of the building. And they were going, oh, wow,

00:35:24.570 --> 00:35:27.030
the whole. The whole north side of the building's

00:35:27.030 --> 00:35:30.070
gone. And I knew right then, I'm like, this was

00:35:30.070 --> 00:35:32.630
not a gas explosion. I didn't know exactly what

00:35:32.630 --> 00:35:35.510
it was, but I knew it wasn't gas. So at the time,

00:35:35.530 --> 00:35:38.110
I was actually working for IMSA, which is the

00:35:38.110 --> 00:35:41.570
medical provider here in the metro. And back

00:35:41.570 --> 00:35:43.510
then, everybody would say, the fire department

00:35:43.510 --> 00:35:45.829
doesn't call people back. We just didn't do that.

00:35:45.869 --> 00:35:49.449
That wasn't a big thing. So I knew that IMSA

00:35:49.449 --> 00:35:53.650
could use me. Super quick. I think I took a super

00:35:53.650 --> 00:35:56.949
quick shower, threw my uniform on, and I drove

00:35:56.949 --> 00:36:03.869
pretty crazy downtown to the post where we would

00:36:03.869 --> 00:36:05.989
deploy our ambulances. And I actually caught

00:36:05.989 --> 00:36:09.289
the very last ambulance that was coming out of

00:36:09.289 --> 00:36:11.210
that post. And there was probably 10 of us on

00:36:11.210 --> 00:36:15.909
the back of the box. go up right on the Northwest

00:36:15.909 --> 00:36:19.110
corner of the building. I remember I there's

00:36:19.110 --> 00:36:22.510
pictures. I, I, it's, it took me a while before

00:36:22.510 --> 00:36:24.369
I found them, but there was pictures exactly

00:36:24.369 --> 00:36:27.289
who was there, what was there when I got off

00:36:27.289 --> 00:36:28.929
and it was a Northwest corner of the building.

00:36:28.969 --> 00:36:31.289
And I remember stepping out of the back of the

00:36:31.289 --> 00:36:34.329
amulets and you hear people yelling, you know,

00:36:34.329 --> 00:36:36.329
a lot of work going on, but I still remember

00:36:36.329 --> 00:36:39.650
I was just like, you know, I was overwhelmed,

00:36:39.769 --> 00:36:42.210
to be honest, at the time when I saw that because

00:36:42.210 --> 00:36:47.130
I had never been on any scene like that. So at

00:36:47.130 --> 00:36:49.070
that point, there was a couple that I worked

00:36:49.070 --> 00:36:51.230
with there. They all knew I was a firefighter.

00:36:51.349 --> 00:36:54.449
And they said, hey, they were passing out these

00:36:54.449 --> 00:36:57.489
orange hard hats, put on an orange hard hat.

00:36:57.650 --> 00:37:00.170
Make sure that people are, you know, only let

00:37:00.170 --> 00:37:02.329
people in and out of this area that need to be.

00:37:02.570 --> 00:37:05.619
If they need stuff, help them. And, you know,

00:37:05.619 --> 00:37:08.019
so we went to work. And I never went in the building

00:37:08.019 --> 00:37:10.739
right there. But people were coming out yelling.

00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:14.320
They got people trapped. That was the only time

00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:18.699
when I was in that area where I seen a live victim

00:37:18.699 --> 00:37:21.260
come out. And they brought a lady out. And to

00:37:21.260 --> 00:37:23.760
this day, I don't know who it is, if she lived,

00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:26.340
didn't live. But I remember we put her in the

00:37:26.340 --> 00:37:29.719
back of the ambulance, covered in concrete dust,

00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:32.380
just covered. And there was a person up there.

00:37:32.420 --> 00:37:35.630
They said, this person is a physician. And we

00:37:35.630 --> 00:37:37.829
all know that can be good or bad. And this is

00:37:37.829 --> 00:37:40.250
not to knock a physician. It's just that's not

00:37:40.250 --> 00:37:44.809
their space. So there was concern about cleaning

00:37:44.809 --> 00:37:48.130
her up. And I'm like, hey, is she breathing or

00:37:48.130 --> 00:37:50.070
not? You know, kind of going through that basics,

00:37:50.190 --> 00:37:53.110
you know, sometimes a good basic, a good paramedic,

00:37:53.110 --> 00:37:54.869
their basic skills is what makes them a good

00:37:54.869 --> 00:37:56.989
paramedic. So I want to make sure to breathe

00:37:56.989 --> 00:38:00.340
in everything. And everything was good in that

00:38:00.340 --> 00:38:02.639
area. So I jumped out and they took her to the

00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:05.699
hospital. But that was the only person that I

00:38:05.699 --> 00:38:08.780
seen there. But I remember it took me years before

00:38:08.780 --> 00:38:12.190
I could really understand. how to explain it

00:38:12.190 --> 00:38:14.989
to somebody and then i've seen saving private

00:38:14.989 --> 00:38:17.869
ryan when they were storming the beach now i'm

00:38:17.869 --> 00:38:19.929
not in any way trying to compare myself that

00:38:19.929 --> 00:38:23.050
was storming normandy we know that is a different

00:38:23.050 --> 00:38:25.949
generation of people and how fantastic they were

00:38:25.949 --> 00:38:29.269
but when that part when they're shooting at tom

00:38:29.269 --> 00:38:32.590
hanks and he's and it's that slow motion the

00:38:32.590 --> 00:38:35.550
way it was When I described, that's how I felt.

00:38:35.710 --> 00:38:39.230
Everything around me was this weird slow motion

00:38:39.230 --> 00:38:43.010
because it was so active. And so for me, that

00:38:43.010 --> 00:38:45.530
was the area when I saw that movie, I'm like,

00:38:45.610 --> 00:38:48.429
oh my gosh, that's how I felt. There was just

00:38:48.429 --> 00:38:50.730
so much going on. And I don't know how long,

00:38:50.769 --> 00:38:54.949
I think, I estimate that I got there probably

00:38:54.949 --> 00:39:00.110
about 940 to 945. And then about 10, 10 to 10,

00:39:00.150 --> 00:39:03.789
15, I think 10, 15 is the closest number. That's

00:39:03.789 --> 00:39:06.389
when the first bomb scare happened, when they

00:39:06.389 --> 00:39:08.710
actually had a bomb scare and people started

00:39:08.710 --> 00:39:11.989
yelling secondary device. And what was so interesting,

00:39:12.090 --> 00:39:16.210
I still tell people in my brain, everybody just

00:39:16.210 --> 00:39:20.230
started to run. And in that moment, because.

00:39:20.829 --> 00:39:22.550
When people start running, you do the same thing.

00:39:22.650 --> 00:39:24.590
So I started running with them. And I remember,

00:39:24.670 --> 00:39:27.489
so I was on the northwest corner running back

00:39:27.489 --> 00:39:30.869
to the west. And there's a Regency Towers, which

00:39:30.869 --> 00:39:33.090
is one of the apartment buildings, 22 -story

00:39:33.090 --> 00:39:34.690
apartment building right next to the bombing.

00:39:35.190 --> 00:39:37.289
And I'm running in that direction. I remember

00:39:37.289 --> 00:39:38.650
looking at someone and saying, why are we running?

00:39:39.230 --> 00:39:41.170
They're like, oh, they found a secondary device.

00:39:41.489 --> 00:39:44.130
And I remember I turned back around, faced the

00:39:44.130 --> 00:39:46.369
building, and I'm like, well, if it goes off,

00:39:46.369 --> 00:39:50.070
I'm dead anyway. So I started to go back. What's

00:39:50.070 --> 00:39:51.969
interesting, and it's in the memorial when I

00:39:51.969 --> 00:39:54.750
do a tour, I tell people, when I was running

00:39:54.750 --> 00:39:57.309
towards that apartment, there was an axle laying

00:39:57.309 --> 00:40:00.989
in the road and a red car. And I remember seeing

00:40:00.989 --> 00:40:03.230
all that and just in your brain goes, something

00:40:03.230 --> 00:40:06.309
here doesn't belong. But, you know, I just remember

00:40:06.309 --> 00:40:08.550
that, seeing it, and I just turned back around

00:40:08.550 --> 00:40:11.030
and went to work. What was interesting, long

00:40:11.030 --> 00:40:12.989
story short, that was the axle from the Ryder

00:40:12.989 --> 00:40:15.550
truck. They used that VIN number off that to

00:40:15.550 --> 00:40:19.199
find that, but I still remember that. But I go

00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:22.480
back, started helping move apparatus and they

00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:25.800
were doing stuff. And at that point, they redeployed

00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:31.170
us to an area of staging. ambulances waiting

00:40:31.170 --> 00:40:34.190
to be called in. And I still remember in that

00:40:34.190 --> 00:40:36.449
area of staging, I don't know how long it was,

00:40:36.489 --> 00:40:38.769
but it seemed like an eternity, you know, cause

00:40:38.769 --> 00:40:40.710
I was going crazy. I'm like, why are we, you

00:40:40.710 --> 00:40:42.869
know, we need to be at the building. But obviously

00:40:42.869 --> 00:40:45.250
at that point I've been trained, you know, if

00:40:45.250 --> 00:40:47.130
you're given a task, you maintain your task.

00:40:47.289 --> 00:40:49.590
You don't just go freelance. I'd probably done

00:40:49.590 --> 00:40:51.769
some freelance showing up there, but I still,

00:40:51.829 --> 00:40:54.570
as I stepped into that structure, I wanted to

00:40:54.570 --> 00:40:58.369
maintain that. We were then redeployed. sometime

00:40:58.369 --> 00:41:02.590
later to the area that is the mezzanine level

00:41:02.590 --> 00:41:05.769
which was if you're coming from fourth street

00:41:05.769 --> 00:41:09.030
was the upper level which actually where the

00:41:09.030 --> 00:41:12.289
second story came out to that level and then

00:41:12.289 --> 00:41:14.190
you had the first story on fifth street that

00:41:14.190 --> 00:41:17.150
came out the street level and i remember being

00:41:17.150 --> 00:41:19.530
up there they kept talking about a person that

00:41:19.530 --> 00:41:21.829
their leg was you know trapped they can't get

00:41:21.829 --> 00:41:24.849
them out calling for equipment i never went down

00:41:24.849 --> 00:41:27.650
in that area but i remember That old talk of

00:41:27.650 --> 00:41:31.730
we need this, we need a doctor and all of that.

00:41:32.429 --> 00:41:36.769
And that was Dana Bradley that they ended up

00:41:36.769 --> 00:41:38.929
having to amputate her leg. I was not there,

00:41:39.010 --> 00:41:42.369
but I remember them calling for that and all

00:41:42.369 --> 00:41:46.289
those different areas. Unfortunately, the second

00:41:46.289 --> 00:41:50.170
floor was the daycare. So that was where they

00:41:50.170 --> 00:41:52.550
were bringing it. I didn't see any. while I was

00:41:52.550 --> 00:41:55.070
there at that point, bringing a lot of the children

00:41:55.070 --> 00:41:58.630
out in that area. But I maintained in that area

00:41:58.630 --> 00:42:02.190
for, I don't, I couldn't tell you how long, just

00:42:02.190 --> 00:42:05.750
seeing what was needed, helping get stuff. And

00:42:05.750 --> 00:42:08.070
then at some point I ran into a couple of firefighters

00:42:08.070 --> 00:42:12.150
that I'd worked with and they said, Hey, the

00:42:12.150 --> 00:42:14.469
fire department's calling people back. They're

00:42:14.469 --> 00:42:17.550
asking us. So I went and found someone that I

00:42:17.550 --> 00:42:19.570
thought was a supervisor for him and said, Hey,

00:42:19.590 --> 00:42:22.329
I'm, I. Being called back to the fire department,

00:42:22.550 --> 00:42:24.090
I want to let you know I'm going to be leaving.

00:42:24.309 --> 00:42:28.570
So went to station, got our gear. At that point,

00:42:28.630 --> 00:42:33.610
they deployed us to Station 1, took us to Station

00:42:33.610 --> 00:42:35.829
1. We was there for a while. They put us in groups

00:42:35.829 --> 00:42:39.650
of 25, and then they made a decision to redeploy

00:42:39.650 --> 00:42:42.429
us back down there. Got down to the building,

00:42:42.550 --> 00:42:44.969
was on the front side there, which is the north

00:42:44.969 --> 00:42:47.710
side on 5th Street. And, you know, it was a rubble

00:42:47.710 --> 00:42:49.710
pile that, you know, when that building collapsed,

00:42:49.829 --> 00:42:52.090
there was a lot of rubble that went down at an

00:42:52.090 --> 00:42:54.130
angle all in that area. And there was people

00:42:54.130 --> 00:42:57.010
trapped in that area that were obviously deceased.

00:42:57.369 --> 00:43:01.250
And my officer that I was stationed with at the

00:43:01.250 --> 00:43:04.230
time, Station 18, David Oliver, he and I were

00:43:04.230 --> 00:43:07.429
put in a man basket with a crane, and we went

00:43:07.429 --> 00:43:10.079
up there and removed. one of the first bodies

00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:12.980
off that pile, put them in a body bag. And then

00:43:12.980 --> 00:43:16.039
we come down and it was kind of, I hate to say

00:43:16.039 --> 00:43:19.119
anti -climatic, but at that point they're like,

00:43:19.219 --> 00:43:22.219
okay, you can go home. And you're like, how do

00:43:22.219 --> 00:43:24.719
I, how do you process all of that? You know,

00:43:24.739 --> 00:43:27.019
I'd been there. It was dark at that point. How

00:43:27.019 --> 00:43:28.960
do you process it? You still want to be there,

00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:31.840
but you also recognize there's a structure and

00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:33.900
you want to do that. So I remember I went back

00:43:33.900 --> 00:43:35.900
to my station at the time and I just slept on

00:43:35.900 --> 00:43:40.420
the couch. I didn't know. what to do, how to

00:43:40.420 --> 00:43:44.000
do it. So I went there and slept. I don't even

00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:46.860
remember a lot of that. I just remember going

00:43:46.860 --> 00:43:49.440
back to station like, wow, how do you process?

00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:52.980
What do you do? And we were off two other days.

00:43:53.019 --> 00:43:56.659
So I spent the next two days lamenting on going

00:43:56.659 --> 00:43:58.539
back to work because you want to be there and

00:43:58.539 --> 00:44:03.219
help. But I go back to that bomb scare, and we

00:44:03.219 --> 00:44:06.460
all know that now. The secondary device, it was

00:44:06.460 --> 00:44:08.300
interesting because it's in the museum. It was

00:44:08.300 --> 00:44:11.800
an actual trainer for the ATF. The device is

00:44:11.800 --> 00:44:14.280
actually in there that they found that everyone

00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:17.960
was evacuated. You know, I'm sure for those that

00:44:17.960 --> 00:44:20.880
were in the building, very scary, very traumatic.

00:44:20.920 --> 00:44:24.730
I've heard some of them talk about it. probably

00:44:24.730 --> 00:44:28.030
the best thing that happened to us to structure

00:44:28.030 --> 00:44:31.050
it because it allowed everyone that didn't need

00:44:31.050 --> 00:44:34.170
to be in that building to get people out to actually

00:44:34.170 --> 00:44:37.809
set a perimeter. And at that point, I was a grunt.

00:44:37.829 --> 00:44:40.210
I was a firefighter. I was doing what I was told,

00:44:40.269 --> 00:44:44.289
and I had some understanding. But really, that

00:44:44.289 --> 00:44:46.869
was probably something that allowed us to really

00:44:46.869 --> 00:44:50.369
get full control that we need to have for that

00:44:50.369 --> 00:44:53.460
building. There were so many people there that

00:44:53.460 --> 00:44:55.420
day on that northwest corner. I mean, people

00:44:55.420 --> 00:44:57.679
in suits. I remember people running up to me

00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:00.539
in suits. And, you know, at that point, people

00:45:00.539 --> 00:45:03.559
are doing what they think they can. But unfortunately,

00:45:03.880 --> 00:45:06.199
you know, there was a nurse that lost her life

00:45:06.199 --> 00:45:09.219
in that. And she was there, Rebecca Anderson,

00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:12.409
to help. and unfortunately you know because of

00:45:12.409 --> 00:45:15.789
the rock and rubble i don't they believe um something

00:45:15.789 --> 00:45:17.570
fell and hit her in the head she obviously had

00:45:17.570 --> 00:45:19.949
head trauma and there's a picture of her that

00:45:19.949 --> 00:45:22.489
shows her and you could see she was in a true

00:45:22.489 --> 00:45:26.250
decor ticket or you know posturing position very

00:45:26.250 --> 00:45:29.809
unfortunate you know someone there but i think

00:45:29.809 --> 00:45:33.340
i say that all That scare allowed us to really,

00:45:33.460 --> 00:45:36.719
the command structure to get that. They had ICS

00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:39.019
and were managing things, but we didn't have

00:45:39.019 --> 00:45:41.039
control of the perimeter and building and allowed

00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:43.539
us to do that. And at that point, there was everybody

00:45:43.539 --> 00:45:45.719
helping. I mean, there was police officers, firefighters,

00:45:46.679 --> 00:45:49.599
IMSA workers, EMS people. You know, people were

00:45:49.599 --> 00:45:52.139
in there doing what they had to do at the time.

00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:56.480
But that was my first day. And after that, I

00:45:56.480 --> 00:46:01.849
worked 10 other days that I... For me, it's so

00:46:01.849 --> 00:46:05.449
interesting. I sit on the board now. I'm on the

00:46:05.449 --> 00:46:08.769
conscience committee. But I didn't really go

00:46:08.769 --> 00:46:11.769
in that building until I made chief. I went there

00:46:11.769 --> 00:46:14.849
one time to do a first -person talk, and it was

00:46:14.849 --> 00:46:18.050
something I didn't want any part of. And it took

00:46:18.050 --> 00:46:20.269
me a long time to recognize in my own trauma

00:46:20.269 --> 00:46:25.420
that I had. I had things that I did not remember.

00:46:25.579 --> 00:46:28.699
I could not tell you. And as I went in that building,

00:46:28.780 --> 00:46:31.940
it allowed me to unpackage that. And it wasn't

00:46:31.940 --> 00:46:35.059
easy, but it allowed me to unpackage that to

00:46:35.059 --> 00:46:38.619
really appreciate. What I mean by appreciate

00:46:38.619 --> 00:46:42.500
is to understand what I went through and how

00:46:42.500 --> 00:46:44.539
to try to deal with that in a positive way. And

00:46:44.539 --> 00:46:49.019
I never had total trauma where I couldn't function.

00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:52.179
But there are things that definitely were debilitating.

00:46:53.219 --> 00:46:55.719
When you say going in that building, was that,

00:46:55.739 --> 00:46:57.039
because I'm trying to remember, I watched the

00:46:57.039 --> 00:47:00.000
documentary not too long ago again. Was that

00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:02.260
the memorial that's on the footprint of the original

00:47:02.260 --> 00:47:06.199
building? It was. I actually was there for that

00:47:06.199 --> 00:47:11.280
day. So I was, there was 12 of us. So kind of

00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:15.500
give you the full, all the way through. We went

00:47:15.500 --> 00:47:18.469
to. recovery mode, what they said, recovery,

00:47:18.630 --> 00:47:20.369
you know, they tried to stay in rescue mode till

00:47:20.369 --> 00:47:23.650
May 1st. And then that was the official shift

00:47:23.650 --> 00:47:27.269
where we went to recovery. The last four days

00:47:27.269 --> 00:47:30.949
of recovery, I worked every day. Um, and, and

00:47:30.949 --> 00:47:35.329
I had my deputy chief that just retired. He and

00:47:35.329 --> 00:47:38.050
I was on that team together. We probably recovered

00:47:38.050 --> 00:47:42.230
40 to 60 bodies. I mean, we recovered a significant

00:47:42.230 --> 00:47:45.780
amount and It's interesting, as I had conversation

00:47:45.780 --> 00:47:48.059
with him, he told me things I could remember.

00:47:48.659 --> 00:47:51.739
And I think that's a natural way our body tries

00:47:51.739 --> 00:47:54.860
to protect us. But we also know for some people

00:47:54.860 --> 00:47:58.800
that protection creates challenge. You know,

00:47:58.840 --> 00:48:01.400
you're not dealing with the trauma. I was fortunate.

00:48:01.539 --> 00:48:05.519
I never had some, as I said, I had issues. I

00:48:05.519 --> 00:48:07.840
mean, I'm not afraid to tell people. I've seen

00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:10.360
a counselor. I still see a counselor. And, you

00:48:10.360 --> 00:48:12.860
know, it's all of that stuff that we build up.

00:48:13.179 --> 00:48:16.300
And I wanted to find a way to deal with it in

00:48:16.300 --> 00:48:18.400
a positive way. And I didn't always. I mean,

00:48:18.440 --> 00:48:21.360
I would love to say that I did, but I didn't.

00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:26.469
So, but yes, we had. The final day we walked

00:48:26.469 --> 00:48:30.309
out at 12 .05 on May 5th, 12 .05 a .m., when

00:48:30.309 --> 00:48:32.329
our chief came in and said, that's it, we're

00:48:32.329 --> 00:48:35.349
done. We knew we had two people. We ended up

00:48:35.349 --> 00:48:39.010
being three in an area. And there's like the

00:48:39.010 --> 00:48:41.670
engineers were afraid if we took that rubble

00:48:41.670 --> 00:48:43.789
away from those columns that the building would

00:48:43.789 --> 00:48:46.369
collapse. So they said, that's it. We can't do

00:48:46.369 --> 00:48:48.530
anything safely without imploding the building.

00:48:48.650 --> 00:48:51.829
So we walked out at 12 .05 a .m., was back the

00:48:51.829 --> 00:48:53.780
very next morning and had a memorial. service

00:48:53.780 --> 00:48:57.960
on site. So did they demolish the building? And

00:48:57.960 --> 00:49:00.920
then let me rephrase that. Where is the Memorial

00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:03.460
Museum place now? Is it on the footprint of where

00:49:03.460 --> 00:49:07.239
the building was? It is not. So on the north

00:49:07.239 --> 00:49:09.139
side of that was what was called the Journal

00:49:09.139 --> 00:49:12.119
Records building. You have the street, which

00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:14.860
is Fifth Street, that is now the reflecting pool.

00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:17.780
The south side of the reflecting pool is the

00:49:17.780 --> 00:49:19.639
footprint of the building. And you can still

00:49:19.639 --> 00:49:23.519
see the outer wall. On the south side and east

00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:25.619
side, they still kept that because a parking

00:49:25.619 --> 00:49:28.699
garage is still there and everything. The north

00:49:28.699 --> 00:49:32.039
side of that was a parking lot, survivor tree.

00:49:32.940 --> 00:49:35.880
And right behind the survivor tree was the Journal

00:49:35.880 --> 00:49:38.199
Records building. The Journal Records building

00:49:38.199 --> 00:49:42.800
now is what houses the Memorial Museum. Gotcha.

00:49:43.659 --> 00:49:47.179
Well, going back, thinking pre -mental health

00:49:47.179 --> 00:49:50.579
conversation, as we touched on before. I would

00:49:50.579 --> 00:49:52.639
imagine the gallows humor, there was probably

00:49:52.639 --> 00:49:56.480
some humor found in the fact that the secondary

00:49:56.480 --> 00:49:59.619
device was an ATF decoy. Were there any jokes

00:49:59.619 --> 00:50:02.099
about that? Because I can only imagine, I mean,

00:50:02.119 --> 00:50:05.159
maybe the magnitude of the incident was too much,

00:50:05.199 --> 00:50:08.260
but I know all the horrors that I've seen in

00:50:08.260 --> 00:50:11.460
my career, some of the most crazy little elements

00:50:11.460 --> 00:50:13.199
were the things that we joked about when we got

00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:17.369
back. Oh, yeah. I don't recall that because I'm

00:50:17.369 --> 00:50:19.869
not sure at the time we all fully knew what it

00:50:19.869 --> 00:50:22.650
was. We knew it was, you know, we knew it was

00:50:22.650 --> 00:50:26.210
a training device. We didn't know as much about

00:50:26.210 --> 00:50:28.510
it. There was just so much focus around that.

00:50:29.090 --> 00:50:31.989
And it's interesting. I'll use this analogy.

00:50:33.090 --> 00:50:36.730
I get to do tours there quite often. And I can

00:50:36.730 --> 00:50:39.130
tell everyone when we get down to the invest,

00:50:39.349 --> 00:50:42.789
when they get into the investigation of the.

00:50:43.099 --> 00:50:45.539
The building and all of that, very well done.

00:50:45.619 --> 00:50:48.179
The FBI, the city police, everyone together,

00:50:48.460 --> 00:50:52.780
outstanding job. I remember nothing. And I tell

00:50:52.780 --> 00:50:55.900
people it's so weird. Once that building was

00:50:55.900 --> 00:50:58.119
imploded and I was on site when they imploded

00:50:58.119 --> 00:51:00.760
it that day, I was on duty and my chief took

00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:04.059
me down there. I remember nothing. I don't remember

00:51:04.059 --> 00:51:08.380
the trial. It's like, I don't want to watch it.

00:51:09.579 --> 00:51:11.900
You know, in that discussion, a lot of that,

00:51:11.920 --> 00:51:15.380
we didn't have that discussion. There was some,

00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:18.539
and I worked with a couple guys that really,

00:51:18.639 --> 00:51:22.840
really struggled, really struggled. And, you

00:51:22.840 --> 00:51:26.119
know, that was a tough deal. We're fortunate,

00:51:26.280 --> 00:51:28.679
you know, we had those teams developed. I'm sure

00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:31.519
we did a lot of things today that we would do

00:51:31.519 --> 00:51:35.019
totally different today than we did then. We

00:51:35.019 --> 00:51:37.869
were also fortunate we had a lot of money. There

00:51:37.869 --> 00:51:41.329
was about 25 to 27 million dollars that was raised

00:51:41.329 --> 00:51:46.769
for specifically for behavior health, for responders,

00:51:47.070 --> 00:51:51.309
family members, survivors. Because I remember

00:51:51.309 --> 00:51:54.989
when I made chief in 2017, right after that,

00:51:55.030 --> 00:51:59.010
2018, they did a ceremony because they had expended

00:51:59.010 --> 00:52:03.510
the last dollars from that event, 2017. So we

00:52:03.510 --> 00:52:07.920
were fortunate. We had some money there. But

00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:09.980
past that point, there are still people that

00:52:09.980 --> 00:52:13.980
I'm sure are struggling from that event. You

00:52:13.980 --> 00:52:18.000
know, sometimes it's a lifetime. And so there

00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:21.440
was probably some of that humor. I know that's,

00:52:21.440 --> 00:52:23.820
I mean, that dark humor, black humor that we

00:52:23.820 --> 00:52:27.760
talk about in different ways. I don't remember

00:52:27.760 --> 00:52:30.280
that specifically. I would love to. We have a

00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:32.119
great relationship with the law enforcement officers

00:52:32.119 --> 00:52:35.380
here. Police and us, we get along. We give each

00:52:35.380 --> 00:52:38.360
other a hard time. That would be fun to give

00:52:38.360 --> 00:52:40.079
them a hard time that was your training device,

00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:44.340
but it was never really talked about. You mentioned

00:52:44.340 --> 00:52:46.440
about people struggling. I had Chris Fields on

00:52:46.440 --> 00:52:49.440
the show and we became friends. And hearing his

00:52:49.440 --> 00:52:51.960
marriage story, even with him and Cheryl, is

00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:55.139
absolutely incredible. But one of the things

00:52:55.139 --> 00:52:56.960
that really struck me, he's got that iconic,

00:52:57.219 --> 00:53:00.199
tragically iconic picture of him holding that

00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:04.280
dead child from the daycare center. And one of

00:53:04.280 --> 00:53:06.739
the things he mentioned about just being so debilitating

00:53:06.739 --> 00:53:09.280
was the anniversary. And all of a sudden, the

00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:11.719
picture of him holding a dead child is global

00:53:11.719 --> 00:53:13.940
again and again. And now, obviously, we just

00:53:13.940 --> 00:53:18.159
had the documentary with with that element. Of

00:53:18.159 --> 00:53:20.400
course, you want the story to be told. You want

00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:22.579
to memorialize the dead. You want to, you know,

00:53:22.579 --> 00:53:24.960
hopefully prevent a tragedy of that happening

00:53:24.960 --> 00:53:28.440
again. What is the impact of something that was

00:53:28.440 --> 00:53:32.000
so visceral to you as far as the anniversaries

00:53:32.000 --> 00:53:37.820
of that incident? You know, it's my wife tells

00:53:37.820 --> 00:53:41.260
me every year. And I don't really notice it.

00:53:41.320 --> 00:53:44.000
But she says every year around that time that

00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:46.500
I have that effect, you know, that it seems like.

00:53:46.760 --> 00:53:49.739
And you don't even sometimes notice it. You try

00:53:49.739 --> 00:53:53.079
to do things the same way. But I know it's there.

00:53:54.039 --> 00:53:57.079
And it does. I mean, I worked with Chris. So

00:53:57.079 --> 00:54:00.539
he was actually my officer. And I worked for

00:54:00.539 --> 00:54:04.940
him in 1999. So after the effect. And you would

00:54:04.940 --> 00:54:07.059
have never known it. I mean, he was a bubbly

00:54:07.059 --> 00:54:09.690
person. You know, I knew him when he made chief

00:54:09.690 --> 00:54:12.230
and came down as our communications chief. So

00:54:12.230 --> 00:54:15.610
I appreciate, you know, I've talked with Chris

00:54:15.610 --> 00:54:18.730
a lot and, you know, I've seen him do his talk.

00:54:18.909 --> 00:54:22.230
I appreciate, number one, that he's been able

00:54:22.230 --> 00:54:26.210
to overcome that. And, you know, but number two,

00:54:26.269 --> 00:54:28.909
that he's willing to share because sometimes

00:54:28.909 --> 00:54:31.869
it's hard to share the challenges you go through.

00:54:32.090 --> 00:54:35.789
And so I appreciate that perspective. But it

00:54:35.789 --> 00:54:40.190
does affect you. I'll tell you, I've done a lot

00:54:40.190 --> 00:54:43.869
of talks on it, and it's helped me therapeutically

00:54:43.869 --> 00:54:46.610
to talk about it. It used to, it was the opposite.

00:54:46.889 --> 00:54:49.170
You kind of suppressed it, but it's helped me

00:54:49.170 --> 00:54:52.250
to talk about it. And everyone has to learn what

00:54:52.250 --> 00:54:56.150
works for them. Some people want to talk about

00:54:56.150 --> 00:54:58.369
it. Some people don't. I think the main thing

00:54:58.369 --> 00:55:01.750
we have to do is identify through people that

00:55:01.750 --> 00:55:04.610
are trained professionals of how do you deal

00:55:04.610 --> 00:55:08.909
with it in a positive way. But I had some challenges.

00:55:08.929 --> 00:55:11.610
I was going to speak in New York about it. And

00:55:11.610 --> 00:55:14.550
I spent all this time getting prepared. I was

00:55:14.550 --> 00:55:17.590
going to do a keynote speech. And then I listened

00:55:17.590 --> 00:55:20.610
to Chris. We had our OKC Foundation. Chris spoke

00:55:20.610 --> 00:55:23.230
at it. Then right afterwards, I go and do an

00:55:23.230 --> 00:55:25.289
MRI. They're doing some medical stuff on it.

00:55:25.329 --> 00:55:28.230
I had to put this cage over my face. And I remember,

00:55:28.389 --> 00:55:31.719
you know, I... Those have always been funky anyway,

00:55:31.860 --> 00:55:34.000
but you go into this MRI machine and it's like

00:55:34.000 --> 00:55:37.099
that close to my face and it's shaking. And I

00:55:37.099 --> 00:55:40.340
remember I usually can just calm myself down.

00:55:40.480 --> 00:55:43.179
I was a rescue diver. I've been in some pretty

00:55:43.179 --> 00:55:46.000
tight spaces, confined space trained. I remember

00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:48.280
I kept talking myself down and I couldn't get

00:55:48.280 --> 00:55:51.159
myself to calm down. And I remember I just started

00:55:51.159 --> 00:55:52.760
pushing that button. They pulled me out and I

00:55:52.760 --> 00:55:55.280
remember I looked up the lane. I said, I felt

00:55:55.280 --> 00:55:58.889
like I was in the building. And she's like. You

00:55:58.889 --> 00:56:00.369
know, look at me. She didn't have a clue what

00:56:00.369 --> 00:56:03.369
building is talking about. But I had all of that

00:56:03.369 --> 00:56:06.969
that I'd been preparing a speech, you know, listen

00:56:06.969 --> 00:56:09.530
to Chris talk and all that. It hit me all at

00:56:09.530 --> 00:56:12.230
once. I was like, I can't do it. You know, and

00:56:12.230 --> 00:56:13.989
then I said, let me try again to put me back

00:56:13.989 --> 00:56:16.449
in. I said, I can't do it. I had to stop. And,

00:56:16.469 --> 00:56:18.829
you know, they later actually gave me a volume

00:56:18.829 --> 00:56:23.090
and I was able. But it was I had that on my mind.

00:56:23.739 --> 00:56:26.320
And it was it hit me, you know, was one of those

00:56:26.320 --> 00:56:27.980
right in the middle of it. I'm just like, I can't

00:56:27.980 --> 00:56:31.340
do this. So I think this is what's really interesting.

00:56:31.579 --> 00:56:34.940
A couple of things. Firstly, the the post -traumatic

00:56:34.940 --> 00:56:36.900
growth element. I think that's such an important

00:56:36.900 --> 00:56:39.599
part of the conversation where, you know, when

00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:42.239
when you're able to find your own personal toolbox,

00:56:42.400 --> 00:56:43.739
which is the other part of the conversation,

00:56:43.940 --> 00:56:46.260
like no one thing works for all of us. It just

00:56:46.260 --> 00:56:49.619
doesn't. But the hope that you will be more resilient

00:56:49.619 --> 00:56:51.420
on the other side, I think, is what we need to

00:56:51.420 --> 00:56:54.179
be hearing. Everyone talking about not the sad

00:56:54.179 --> 00:56:56.820
stories and, you know, I'm going to live with

00:56:56.820 --> 00:57:00.559
my PTSD air quotes like that. I really feel like,

00:57:00.599 --> 00:57:03.159
OK, not everyone can get past that. But most

00:57:03.159 --> 00:57:05.360
people, there's there's even more growth that

00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:07.880
you haven't quite got to yet. But I think that

00:57:07.880 --> 00:57:11.440
please jump in, jump in. Well, I think you hit

00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:14.360
the nail on the head. We keep saying PTSD, PTSD.

00:57:15.380 --> 00:57:19.519
We have all have PTSD. We need to figure out

00:57:19.519 --> 00:57:22.179
how we have post -traumatic growth and not become

00:57:22.179 --> 00:57:25.219
a disorder. Now, I also want to say this, too,

00:57:25.340 --> 00:57:30.000
because I think we attach labels to things. Just

00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:32.579
because you have PTSD doesn't mean you're broken.

00:57:32.719 --> 00:57:35.159
It doesn't mean that you can't survive, can't

00:57:35.159 --> 00:57:38.280
function. It means you need to recognize it.

00:57:38.360 --> 00:57:40.599
Just like if someone had cancer, you need to

00:57:40.599 --> 00:57:43.329
recognize it and treat it. But there is life

00:57:43.329 --> 00:57:47.170
after cancer, and there is life after PTSD. So

00:57:47.170 --> 00:57:49.789
I think we are, and the reality, we've got to

00:57:49.789 --> 00:57:52.489
all embrace the fact that if you're in a line

00:57:52.489 --> 00:57:58.250
of field that we do of fire, police, EMS, nursing,

00:57:58.429 --> 00:58:00.550
all of these different things, and there's others.

00:58:00.630 --> 00:58:02.929
I'm not trying to just say that you're going

00:58:02.929 --> 00:58:06.849
to have post -traumatic stress. It's just, it's

00:58:06.849 --> 00:58:09.969
part of it. And we need to build resiliency factors,

00:58:10.050 --> 00:58:13.090
how we grow from that. and do things in a positive

00:58:13.090 --> 00:58:16.269
way and where we get through that and when we

00:58:16.269 --> 00:58:18.769
don't when we have struggles there's ways to

00:58:18.769 --> 00:58:21.570
deal with that and and try to get better but

00:58:21.570 --> 00:58:23.949
and look at that in a positive way and not let

00:58:23.949 --> 00:58:26.849
it become a disorder now i'm not saying you can't

00:58:26.849 --> 00:58:29.730
you you that it never happens but we need to

00:58:29.730 --> 00:58:32.829
look at that and be able to grow from it well

00:58:32.829 --> 00:58:34.269
the other thing i think that a lot of people

00:58:34.269 --> 00:58:37.480
miss when it comes to our profession is early

00:58:37.480 --> 00:58:40.199
life struggles in early life and as you touched

00:58:40.199 --> 00:58:42.619
on aces which i thought is brilliant adverse

00:58:42.619 --> 00:58:46.360
childhood experience score i've had several people

00:58:46.360 --> 00:58:48.980
tell me that on average first responders and

00:58:48.980 --> 00:58:52.059
military have an aces of about six and so do

00:58:52.059 --> 00:58:55.960
incarcerated personnel so You have people that

00:58:55.960 --> 00:58:58.199
have had struggles in there earlier. Some of

00:58:58.199 --> 00:59:00.199
them are able to find the right path. And I would

00:59:00.199 --> 00:59:02.119
argue the only thing missing between right and

00:59:02.119 --> 00:59:05.360
wrong is that positive mentorship from a collection

00:59:05.360 --> 00:59:08.139
of people along the way and or good parenting,

00:59:08.260 --> 00:59:11.400
of course. But with that post -traumatic growth,

00:59:11.699 --> 00:59:15.119
having those struggles when you're young, absolutely,

00:59:15.300 --> 00:59:17.800
I think, you know, forges the kind of person

00:59:17.800 --> 00:59:19.940
that is going to be a good first responder, good,

00:59:20.019 --> 00:59:23.300
you know, soldier, whatever it is. But if left

00:59:23.300 --> 00:59:26.550
unaddressed. it becomes a crack in our foundation.

00:59:26.909 --> 00:59:29.710
And so I think acknowledging that rather than

00:59:29.710 --> 00:59:33.010
the MMPI, which I did numerous times to get hired,

00:59:33.150 --> 00:59:34.989
which I've discovered through this podcast was

00:59:34.989 --> 00:59:38.150
never supposed to be a standalone test for someone

00:59:38.150 --> 00:59:41.130
to be able to get first responder or not. But

00:59:41.130 --> 00:59:42.849
it's understanding like if you've walked through

00:59:42.849 --> 00:59:44.349
the door and put your hand up and said, I want

00:59:44.349 --> 00:59:46.250
to be a first responder, there's a good chance

00:59:46.250 --> 00:59:48.570
that there were a set of circumstances that led

00:59:48.570 --> 00:59:50.710
you this way. And even for yourself, I mean,

00:59:50.730 --> 00:59:53.090
a lot of people, even though you had this nurturing,

00:59:53.230 --> 00:59:56.480
loving, upbringing, there's that little voice

00:59:56.480 --> 00:59:58.440
in the back. Why wasn't I good enough for my

00:59:58.440 --> 01:00:01.380
original parents? And you hear this a lot. So

01:00:01.380 --> 01:00:03.420
I myself was in a house fire when I was four,

01:00:03.500 --> 01:00:05.739
almost died, almost got crushed by a wall. A

01:00:05.739 --> 01:00:08.360
few years later, horrible parents divorced. So

01:00:08.360 --> 01:00:10.980
there were things. But I also grew up on a farm.

01:00:11.119 --> 01:00:13.539
I had animals. I had nature. I had clean food.

01:00:13.619 --> 01:00:15.880
My dad was a veterinary surgeon, so he healed

01:00:15.880 --> 01:00:19.300
animals. So equally and oppositely, there were

01:00:19.300 --> 01:00:21.639
these abilities to start processing the trauma.

01:00:22.090 --> 01:00:24.050
So I think this is a really important part of

01:00:24.050 --> 01:00:26.769
our conversation is understanding at the front

01:00:26.769 --> 01:00:30.369
door, not only for mental health, but also for

01:00:30.369 --> 01:00:34.130
performance that as much as we do PT, mental

01:00:34.130 --> 01:00:36.389
fitness should also be part of the conversation.

01:00:36.809 --> 01:00:39.889
If you have not, you know, very little to offload,

01:00:39.909 --> 01:00:41.630
then great. You just created a relationship with

01:00:41.630 --> 01:00:43.690
a counselor that as you progress through and

01:00:43.690 --> 01:00:46.250
God forbid, you have a, you know, Mara building

01:00:46.250 --> 01:00:48.929
experience, then now you've, you can immediately

01:00:48.929 --> 01:00:51.280
know who you're going to see. But more often

01:00:51.280 --> 01:00:53.300
than not, if you do have things that haven't

01:00:53.300 --> 01:00:55.380
been addressed before you put the uniform on,

01:00:55.440 --> 01:00:57.960
right at the beginning, you can start talking

01:00:57.960 --> 01:00:59.960
about those and processing them. And I think

01:00:59.960 --> 01:01:02.900
that is a conversation that will lead a lot more

01:01:02.900 --> 01:01:05.300
of us into that post -traumatic growth side.

01:01:06.380 --> 01:01:10.659
I totally agree. We're blessed that we have an

01:01:10.659 --> 01:01:13.480
LCSW that works for us, a behavioral health specialist.

01:01:13.699 --> 01:01:16.199
And we've had a lot of conversation, and that's

01:01:16.199 --> 01:01:18.820
what she's brought up. You know, we need to be

01:01:18.820 --> 01:01:22.599
looking at these ACE scores, some of these different

01:01:22.599 --> 01:01:26.019
scores, and not from a fact of saying that you're

01:01:26.019 --> 01:01:29.199
not fit to be a firefighter, but, hey, you have

01:01:29.199 --> 01:01:32.000
this background. You need to be aware of that.

01:01:32.179 --> 01:01:34.880
And how do you grow from that? Because I think

01:01:34.880 --> 01:01:37.880
we've, for years, we've just ignored those factors.

01:01:38.239 --> 01:01:41.159
And the reality, you brought, you know, many

01:01:41.159 --> 01:01:44.280
times because someone may have been through some

01:01:44.280 --> 01:01:47.320
hurt or some challenges, they want to help others.

01:01:47.920 --> 01:01:50.360
And that's their power of what they want to do.

01:01:50.440 --> 01:01:52.659
But they may not have the understanding. How

01:01:52.659 --> 01:01:54.880
do you take care of yourself? Because you can't

01:01:54.880 --> 01:01:56.420
help someone else if you can't help yourself.

01:01:56.760 --> 01:01:59.059
And it doesn't mean they're weak. It doesn't

01:01:59.059 --> 01:02:01.099
mean they're not strong. It just means they have

01:02:01.099 --> 01:02:03.960
that in their history. And to recognize that

01:02:03.960 --> 01:02:05.960
and how do we grow from it? I think that's what

01:02:05.960 --> 01:02:09.559
we have to do of learning. How do we grow from

01:02:09.559 --> 01:02:12.400
that? How do we educate those new individuals

01:02:12.400 --> 01:02:15.300
coming on the job to help them be successful?

01:02:16.090 --> 01:02:17.650
And to help them have a productive, because in

01:02:17.650 --> 01:02:21.269
reality, I say we want firefighters that have

01:02:21.269 --> 01:02:24.329
a great family life, that enjoy everything, not

01:02:24.329 --> 01:02:27.190
just the fire department, everything around it.

01:02:27.210 --> 01:02:29.210
Because if they're happy, they're going to be

01:02:29.210 --> 01:02:31.550
a lot better firefighters. They're going to be

01:02:31.550 --> 01:02:33.550
productive at the fire station. They're going

01:02:33.550 --> 01:02:36.309
to be productive in their family life. And I

01:02:36.309 --> 01:02:37.829
think that's an area that we're going to have

01:02:37.829 --> 01:02:41.690
to lean into and really address that wholeheartedly.

01:02:42.639 --> 01:02:44.860
This is a conversation I've had a lot recently.

01:02:44.920 --> 01:02:49.539
When you hear the knee -jerk response to especially

01:02:49.539 --> 01:02:51.539
the recruitment crisis, oh, well, the problem

01:02:51.539 --> 01:02:53.179
is kids today, they just don't want to work.

01:02:53.260 --> 01:02:56.239
They all want to be YouTubers. And you take a

01:02:56.239 --> 01:02:58.840
step back and you look at kids today. Firstly,

01:02:59.000 --> 01:03:02.170
from a fitness side, I hear this a lot. the fit

01:03:02.170 --> 01:03:04.690
candidates that we get are extremely fit because

01:03:04.690 --> 01:03:08.030
the way that sports science has evolved and everything,

01:03:08.250 --> 01:03:10.530
even the adaptive athlete side, you know, it's

01:03:10.530 --> 01:03:13.369
amazing the level of education these young people

01:03:13.369 --> 01:03:15.250
get and the kinds of gyms that are accessible

01:03:15.250 --> 01:03:17.250
for them to be really well prepared for this

01:03:17.250 --> 01:03:20.030
profession. But also I would argue that they're

01:03:20.030 --> 01:03:22.969
very emotionally intelligent these days and they

01:03:22.969 --> 01:03:26.489
value relationships. So if they look at the application

01:03:26.489 --> 01:03:29.570
for a fire department and it's really showing

01:03:29.570 --> 01:03:32.050
that they take care of their people, and they

01:03:32.050 --> 01:03:34.409
value their time at home, then they're probably

01:03:34.409 --> 01:03:36.730
going to be very interested. Conversely, if you

01:03:36.730 --> 01:03:40.849
refuse to evolve with the changes, and there's

01:03:40.849 --> 01:03:43.570
mandatory overtime, and lack of mental health

01:03:43.570 --> 01:03:46.510
support, and no fitness standards, I feel like

01:03:46.510 --> 01:03:48.730
that is dissuading a lot of young people who

01:03:48.730 --> 01:03:50.710
would otherwise be chomping at the bit to be

01:03:50.710 --> 01:03:55.619
firefighters. I think the reality of when I came

01:03:55.619 --> 01:03:58.280
on the job, they said the same thing. Oh, my.

01:03:58.599 --> 01:04:00.820
Look at this generation of firefighters we're

01:04:00.820 --> 01:04:03.500
hiring. What are we going to do? So the reality

01:04:03.500 --> 01:04:06.500
of it is, I think as leaders, we have to recognize,

01:04:06.880 --> 01:04:10.019
and you said it, play to the strengths of those

01:04:10.019 --> 01:04:12.920
candidates that we have. They have a lot of areas

01:04:12.920 --> 01:04:15.840
that are way better than my generation. But the

01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:18.570
areas that they're not as good at. What we always

01:04:18.570 --> 01:04:21.590
hear is their adaptive skills, you know, that

01:04:21.590 --> 01:04:24.110
they're hands on. But those are things that can

01:04:24.110 --> 01:04:27.289
be taught. I mean, we can teach that part of

01:04:27.289 --> 01:04:29.349
it. The nice thing is you're not teaching the

01:04:29.349 --> 01:04:32.389
other side. So you have that balance. You just

01:04:32.389 --> 01:04:34.469
got to invest in your employees. You can complain

01:04:34.469 --> 01:04:37.269
about it or you can deal with it. And the dealing

01:04:37.269 --> 01:04:40.909
with it is recognizing their strengths and playing

01:04:40.909 --> 01:04:43.469
upon their strengths and helping them through

01:04:43.469 --> 01:04:46.309
their weaknesses. It's the generations that we

01:04:46.309 --> 01:04:48.389
have that make us it's going to make us better.

01:04:48.650 --> 01:04:51.050
They're going to be more adaptive. You know,

01:04:51.070 --> 01:04:53.440
it's funny. For the fire service for years, we

01:04:53.440 --> 01:04:55.320
always said there's two things firefighters hate,

01:04:55.340 --> 01:04:58.219
change and the way things are. Well, the beauty

01:04:58.219 --> 01:05:00.679
of the newer generation, they're more open to

01:05:00.679 --> 01:05:03.099
change. They're more willing to change because

01:05:03.099 --> 01:05:05.400
they've seen it through their life. So why not

01:05:05.400 --> 01:05:07.619
play to that strength where you can make changes

01:05:07.619 --> 01:05:10.980
and help them in the areas, the skill set. And

01:05:10.980 --> 01:05:14.019
I can tell you, when you apply the skills and

01:05:14.019 --> 01:05:16.760
you help them through the skills, they're extremely

01:05:16.760 --> 01:05:20.989
knowledgeable, extremely. cognizant of that and

01:05:20.989 --> 01:05:23.170
are able to perform a high level. So I think

01:05:23.170 --> 01:05:24.889
we're going to stop playing to their strengths.

01:05:25.510 --> 01:05:27.469
I think one of the things that I've seen as well

01:05:27.469 --> 01:05:30.030
collectively is they're more apt to ask why.

01:05:30.789 --> 01:05:33.349
So, you know, why are we helping this elderly

01:05:33.349 --> 01:05:35.510
lady and cleaning her up and putting her back

01:05:35.510 --> 01:05:37.349
to bed? That's a great answer for that. Well,

01:05:37.409 --> 01:05:39.409
because it's the right thing to do. And, you

01:05:39.409 --> 01:05:41.269
know, the husband's now crushed with shame and

01:05:41.269 --> 01:05:42.869
guilt because he can't pick up the love of his

01:05:42.869 --> 01:05:44.809
life. And the four of us can go in there and

01:05:44.809 --> 01:05:47.090
completely change their day. Oh, okay. That makes

01:05:47.090 --> 01:05:49.349
perfect sense. You know, why do we wake up a

01:05:49.349 --> 01:05:52.070
whole bunk room of firefighters for one rescue's

01:05:52.070 --> 01:05:56.519
call? We shouldn't. Exactly. So it's good to

01:05:56.519 --> 01:05:58.719
ask why, you know, some things make sense and

01:05:58.719 --> 01:06:00.920
some things don't make sense. So I think that

01:06:00.920 --> 01:06:03.340
makes them stronger, too. And in my generation,

01:06:03.480 --> 01:06:05.940
we just did it. And then when we was telling

01:06:05.940 --> 01:06:08.519
the next person, well, we just because that's

01:06:08.519 --> 01:06:12.320
what we do. And now as we as leaders, we should

01:06:12.320 --> 01:06:15.460
be building the why into the training. And I

01:06:15.460 --> 01:06:18.639
think that's where we would be better organizationally,

01:06:18.639 --> 01:06:22.309
because now. We as leaders have to say why. We

01:06:22.309 --> 01:06:24.710
have to put the why. And it helps us to understand

01:06:24.710 --> 01:06:27.550
sometimes we're making a decision that we're

01:06:27.550 --> 01:06:29.949
asking ourselves that. It helps us sometimes

01:06:29.949 --> 01:06:31.730
to go, is it really that important? Because we

01:06:31.730 --> 01:06:33.989
can't even explain why we're doing it. So it

01:06:33.989 --> 01:06:37.429
makes us rethink that as well. So yeah, every

01:06:37.429 --> 01:06:39.210
generation is going to have challenges and we

01:06:39.210 --> 01:06:41.030
just have to work through that and help us to

01:06:41.030 --> 01:06:44.429
move forward and to help us grow. Absolutely.

01:06:44.449 --> 01:06:46.889
I said this recently. I just did a conversation

01:06:46.889 --> 01:06:51.570
or a... a talk at the Florida Professional Firefighters

01:06:51.570 --> 01:06:54.090
Conference. And, you know, they're all kind of

01:06:54.090 --> 01:06:56.650
my generation, either side of it. And I said

01:06:56.650 --> 01:06:58.230
to him, look, you know, we're standing on the

01:06:58.230 --> 01:07:00.690
shoulders of giants. The SCBA has already been

01:07:00.690 --> 01:07:03.250
invented. So has Bunker Gear. So has, you know,

01:07:03.289 --> 01:07:05.809
Epi. I mean, all these things that we've used

01:07:05.809 --> 01:07:08.869
to save lives for our whole career are other

01:07:08.869 --> 01:07:12.039
people's ideas. where we can be a pioneer is

01:07:12.039 --> 01:07:14.300
the health of the human being this is the opportunity

01:07:14.300 --> 01:07:16.599
that my generation has so that people will look

01:07:16.599 --> 01:07:18.340
back and go i can't believe they used to work

01:07:18.340 --> 01:07:20.900
56 80 hours a week you know i can't believe they

01:07:20.900 --> 01:07:23.219
had pfas in all their gear and maybe that was

01:07:23.219 --> 01:07:25.460
one of the things that was killing them um so

01:07:25.460 --> 01:07:28.820
it is i think it's excuse me it's exciting because

01:07:28.820 --> 01:07:31.500
we have kind of one foot in each generation now

01:07:31.500 --> 01:07:34.400
and we can either as you said Just keep doing

01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:36.300
the way that we're doing. And, you know, the

01:07:36.300 --> 01:07:38.139
money that you need for a D shift, for example,

01:07:38.239 --> 01:07:41.059
where I live is being bled in overtime and people

01:07:41.059 --> 01:07:42.800
leaving the department after they train them,

01:07:42.860 --> 01:07:45.059
you know, take that money and proactively put

01:07:45.059 --> 01:07:48.199
it in. And then that way now you can be a force

01:07:48.199 --> 01:07:51.420
multiplier with, you know, 15, 20, 25 years in

01:07:51.420 --> 01:07:53.579
the service and leave a legacy of mental and

01:07:53.579 --> 01:07:57.349
physical health for the next firefighters. And

01:07:57.349 --> 01:07:59.110
there's so many things out there. You said it.

01:07:59.389 --> 01:08:02.630
We had a wellness committee meeting this morning

01:08:02.630 --> 01:08:07.829
and just excited for opportunity. In our last

01:08:07.829 --> 01:08:10.230
recruit class, we introduced what's called an

01:08:10.230 --> 01:08:12.130
H -drop system. I don't know if it's a hydration.

01:08:12.769 --> 01:08:16.949
It's a thumbprint hydration system. It's a wearable,

01:08:17.010 --> 01:08:20.210
but you can do it. And we had every recruit every

01:08:20.210 --> 01:08:22.630
day had to come in and test their hydration levels.

01:08:23.319 --> 01:08:25.760
And it allowed us, and we didn't see any heat

01:08:25.760 --> 01:08:27.779
-related injuries through that entire recruit

01:08:27.779 --> 01:08:31.600
class. So we used that system. We now are rolling

01:08:31.600 --> 01:08:35.979
it out to the stations. And it's very cost -effective.

01:08:36.159 --> 01:08:40.100
I think each device is about $250 a piece. And

01:08:40.100 --> 01:08:42.220
we're going to put those at all our fire stations.

01:08:43.090 --> 01:08:46.550
And this is not anything earth shattering. For

01:08:46.550 --> 01:08:48.489
the next recruit class, we're going to put everybody

01:08:48.489 --> 01:08:51.569
in loops. So now they'll be able to see, we want

01:08:51.569 --> 01:08:53.930
to be able to not just heart rate variability,

01:08:54.109 --> 01:08:56.510
but they can see their hydration levels. We want

01:08:56.510 --> 01:08:58.829
to start talking to them about their sleep and

01:08:58.829 --> 01:09:00.710
start educating them on their sleep patterns

01:09:00.710 --> 01:09:02.829
and how they're doing that. And so hopefully

01:09:02.829 --> 01:09:05.609
we can, you know. build a new generation of coming

01:09:05.609 --> 01:09:08.430
out of recruit school. And I would love to change

01:09:08.430 --> 01:09:10.750
the entire department, but we also know we need

01:09:10.750 --> 01:09:13.909
to start foundationally and then come back to

01:09:13.909 --> 01:09:16.050
that because as we continue that in our foundation,

01:09:16.149 --> 01:09:19.510
we can continue to improve the health and well

01:09:19.510 --> 01:09:22.670
-being of our firefighters going forward. That's

01:09:22.670 --> 01:09:24.149
really interesting. I haven't heard of that technology

01:09:24.149 --> 01:09:27.550
before, but I've seen a few deaths recently,

01:09:27.689 --> 01:09:29.850
line of duty deaths of young recruits that have,

01:09:29.930 --> 01:09:31.649
you know, literally, I mean, like in their 20s.

01:09:32.010 --> 01:09:34.529
that have come back from whatever training and

01:09:34.529 --> 01:09:36.270
then just dropped dead. And again, I don't know

01:09:36.270 --> 01:09:39.289
if that was an underlying cardiac issue or, but

01:09:39.289 --> 01:09:41.050
I mean, you know, we all know that dehydration

01:09:41.050 --> 01:09:44.329
can, you know, if not cause and certainly aggravate

01:09:44.329 --> 01:09:47.949
a pre preexisting condition. And so I think we're

01:09:47.949 --> 01:09:50.050
all learning together, but I think you hit the

01:09:50.050 --> 01:09:52.479
nail on the head. We're fortunate. We have those

01:09:52.479 --> 01:09:54.520
things that's already been codified. It's part

01:09:54.520 --> 01:09:57.100
of our organization. And so how do we build on

01:09:57.100 --> 01:10:00.659
that and continue to improve and look at technology

01:10:00.659 --> 01:10:02.899
and look at things that we can improve our organizations?

01:10:04.000 --> 01:10:07.180
So we were talking the last time we spoke, I

01:10:07.180 --> 01:10:09.439
had Danny Long on the show, who's the Oklahoma

01:10:09.439 --> 01:10:12.800
State Trooper and spearheading an amazing fitness

01:10:12.800 --> 01:10:15.460
and wellness initiative in your state. Talk to

01:10:15.460 --> 01:10:18.260
me about the fitness side, fitness standards

01:10:18.260 --> 01:10:20.939
or any other side on the tactical athlete element

01:10:20.939 --> 01:10:24.899
of your firefighters. So, you know, that's one.

01:10:25.020 --> 01:10:28.600
We use the WFI initiative, Wellness Fitness Initiative,

01:10:29.159 --> 01:10:33.800
that is developed by the IFF. We run everyone

01:10:33.800 --> 01:10:37.479
through that every year. We're fortunate. We

01:10:37.479 --> 01:10:39.859
do physicals on everyone every year, and they

01:10:39.859 --> 01:10:42.619
go straight from their physical and do the WFI

01:10:42.619 --> 01:10:45.760
standards, so they go through that process. Then

01:10:45.760 --> 01:10:47.600
we have peer fitness trainers in the district

01:10:47.600 --> 01:10:51.119
to try to improve those areas that they're lagging

01:10:51.119 --> 01:10:53.840
in that. We're fortunate we have an athletic

01:10:53.840 --> 01:10:57.399
trainer. That spearheads a lot of that, and we're

01:10:57.399 --> 01:11:01.140
continuing to grow the program. We do have a

01:11:01.140 --> 01:11:03.420
mandatory non -punitive workout, which means

01:11:03.420 --> 01:11:05.119
you're required to work out an hour and a half

01:11:05.119 --> 01:11:08.659
every day on the job. And, you know, that's the

01:11:08.659 --> 01:11:11.680
area of how do we continue that space. We still

01:11:11.680 --> 01:11:13.739
have a lot of growth in the areas that we need

01:11:13.739 --> 01:11:16.359
to improve in that. We don't have minimum requirements,

01:11:16.720 --> 01:11:19.399
but we do have aggregate so we can look that

01:11:19.399 --> 01:11:22.840
everyone pretty much is in that space where they're

01:11:22.840 --> 01:11:25.670
able to do the job. They're physical. They can

01:11:25.670 --> 01:11:28.229
check them off when they do their lung capacity

01:11:28.229 --> 01:11:32.170
and everything through that process. In that,

01:11:32.329 --> 01:11:36.449
we do ultrasounds, abdominal ultrasounds, thyroid

01:11:36.449 --> 01:11:39.449
ultrasounds for cancer screening, heavy metal

01:11:39.449 --> 01:11:41.770
blood screening, some other things. And I'm wanting

01:11:41.770 --> 01:11:45.550
to expand that even more. We've been reaching

01:11:45.550 --> 01:11:50.199
out to... South Metro Fire in Colorado on their

01:11:50.199 --> 01:11:53.479
CTA scans that they do, the heart scans, and

01:11:53.479 --> 01:11:55.199
really trying to learn from that. And they've

01:11:55.199 --> 01:11:58.880
been phenomenal. And I'm not afraid to do R &D,

01:11:58.939 --> 01:12:01.760
which I call rip off and duplicate. So if they're

01:12:01.760 --> 01:12:03.420
doing something good, we'll just put our name

01:12:03.420 --> 01:12:07.109
on it and learn from it. So we're in that space.

01:12:07.250 --> 01:12:10.409
I'm excited to see. I'm hearing that new NFPA

01:12:10.409 --> 01:12:13.229
standards are coming out with some minimum VO2

01:12:13.229 --> 01:12:16.729
max and some recommendations on that processing

01:12:16.729 --> 01:12:20.369
and what people and categories are. I do like,

01:12:20.529 --> 01:12:24.729
you know, you talk with John and MFC and managing

01:12:24.729 --> 01:12:26.869
fire company. He has it has some certain levels

01:12:26.869 --> 01:12:30.069
of fitness. And I know Phoenix uses that as well.

01:12:30.170 --> 01:12:33.010
And we've looked at that modeling system. We're

01:12:33.010 --> 01:12:34.510
still working through some of those challenges.

01:12:35.270 --> 01:12:39.270
of you know people online and offline but really

01:12:39.270 --> 01:12:42.229
overall we focus on the fitness area of providing

01:12:42.229 --> 01:12:46.909
the carrot instead of the stick attitude for

01:12:46.909 --> 01:12:50.510
fitness the 90 minute workout is that on shift

01:12:50.510 --> 01:12:54.329
yes sir how do you cover that is do they go to

01:12:54.329 --> 01:12:55.770
the call if they get a call or do you actually

01:12:55.770 --> 01:12:57.850
put them out of service they have to go to a

01:12:57.850 --> 01:13:00.710
call if they get a call But most it's we don't

01:13:00.710 --> 01:13:02.890
like some departments have a certain time frame

01:13:02.890 --> 01:13:06.329
between this time. We allow the officer to manage

01:13:06.329 --> 01:13:09.289
that in any way they say fit. They do track that.

01:13:09.350 --> 01:13:11.470
We do have an app that they put in their fitness

01:13:11.470 --> 01:13:14.050
that they do every day. And so we try to build

01:13:14.050 --> 01:13:17.029
that into part of our organization. We kind of

01:13:17.029 --> 01:13:18.869
have a saying every day is a training day. Every

01:13:18.869 --> 01:13:21.449
day is a physical fitness day. So we really try

01:13:21.449 --> 01:13:24.170
to focus in that area. And I will tell you, we're

01:13:24.170 --> 01:13:27.250
not a we still have a lot of growth that we're

01:13:27.250 --> 01:13:29.810
trying. doing that space but we're really that's

01:13:29.810 --> 01:13:32.630
why we're bringing that gra from osu on to help

01:13:32.630 --> 01:13:35.609
us grow one of the areas that we want to do we

01:13:35.609 --> 01:13:38.829
were doing fms screenings um and we're trying

01:13:38.829 --> 01:13:41.369
to move to more of mobility we found some mobility

01:13:41.369 --> 01:13:45.029
apps and they never have come to fruition so

01:13:45.029 --> 01:13:46.970
we're trying to that gra is going to help us

01:13:46.970 --> 01:13:50.029
build out our mobility program fms is really

01:13:50.029 --> 01:13:52.890
good it's just Because if you don't have one

01:13:52.890 --> 01:13:54.930
person doing all of them, it's hard to be consistent.

01:13:55.289 --> 01:13:57.590
So we're really trying to look at a better mobility

01:13:57.590 --> 01:14:02.229
program to have consistency. Beautiful. Yeah,

01:14:02.289 --> 01:14:04.229
I had one of the founders of FMS on the show

01:14:04.229 --> 01:14:06.409
not long ago. Another one when I think of mobility

01:14:06.409 --> 01:14:09.149
is yoga for first responders, which when you

01:14:09.149 --> 01:14:11.210
hear the word yoga and first responder, that's

01:14:11.210 --> 01:14:12.689
their whole thing. It's like there's normally

01:14:12.689 --> 01:14:15.250
pushback, but I've heard nothing but great things

01:14:15.250 --> 01:14:17.909
about that program. They were actually talking

01:14:17.909 --> 01:14:22.170
about that today in our... In our wellness meeting,

01:14:22.289 --> 01:14:25.989
we have a wellness committee that's labor and

01:14:25.989 --> 01:14:28.649
management, and they do a lot of stuff to help

01:14:28.649 --> 01:14:31.229
move our organization forward. We're just talking

01:14:31.229 --> 01:14:35.149
about some of those yoga programs. There was

01:14:35.149 --> 01:14:40.170
an interesting one of our wellness guys is a

01:14:40.170 --> 01:14:43.729
PT, and he was talking about this triphasic training.

01:14:43.930 --> 01:14:47.880
Have you heard of that? Yeah. Yeah, talking about

01:14:47.880 --> 01:14:49.899
that and just trying to look in some other areas

01:14:49.899 --> 01:14:52.119
how we can improve because you've got to have

01:14:52.119 --> 01:14:54.560
there's limitations for your workout really on

01:14:54.560 --> 01:14:56.819
duty. You know, you don't want to probably go

01:14:56.819 --> 01:14:59.420
out and do Murph, you know, with a vest while

01:14:59.420 --> 01:15:01.659
you're on duty. But there are other things that,

01:15:01.680 --> 01:15:05.420
you know, how do we build some good workouts

01:15:05.420 --> 01:15:07.479
that we could do on duty? And some of the studies

01:15:07.479 --> 01:15:10.760
I want to do is how do we build workouts where

01:15:10.760 --> 01:15:13.399
we're burning that cortisol? Because we know

01:15:13.399 --> 01:15:16.600
that that's a challenge that high stress. Some

01:15:16.600 --> 01:15:18.779
of the things firefighters have with shift work

01:15:18.779 --> 01:15:23.000
is having higher levels of cortisol. I know there's

01:15:23.000 --> 01:15:24.939
certain workouts, but really being intentional

01:15:24.939 --> 01:15:27.979
to say, hey, when you're coming off duty, you

01:15:27.979 --> 01:15:30.159
need to do some type of workout here to burn

01:15:30.159 --> 01:15:32.340
that cortisol or something in that. I don't know.

01:15:32.340 --> 01:15:34.260
We're going to look at a lot of different studies.

01:15:34.890 --> 01:15:37.510
So another one, foundation training is amazing.

01:15:37.710 --> 01:15:40.029
And I used that initially to heal a back injury.

01:15:40.130 --> 01:15:44.630
No surgery, nothing. Phenomenal. But the kind

01:15:44.630 --> 01:15:46.989
of right -hand man of the founder is a former

01:15:46.989 --> 01:15:50.050
Orlando firefighter. And you talk about understanding

01:15:50.050 --> 01:15:52.310
movement. They're phenomenal. And they've worked

01:15:52.310 --> 01:15:55.010
with, I mean, high -level athletes of all disciplines

01:15:55.010 --> 01:15:58.640
and movie stars. But that's another. amazing

01:15:58.640 --> 01:16:01.760
amazing movement system and then going back to

01:16:01.760 --> 01:16:03.500
what you said this is one thing that i used to

01:16:03.500 --> 01:16:06.520
do is come off shift and then i'm gonna go you

01:16:06.520 --> 01:16:09.579
know burn off my stress burn off my you know

01:16:09.579 --> 01:16:13.300
my tension whatever it is and it was a navy seal

01:16:13.300 --> 01:16:15.899
on the seal seal team six guys that pointed out

01:16:15.899 --> 01:16:18.119
is that look so you're coming off already highly

01:16:18.119 --> 01:16:20.399
stressed and you're gonna do a high stress workout

01:16:21.550 --> 01:16:23.270
Right. And immediately I went and I've been,

01:16:23.289 --> 01:16:25.909
you know, in the athletic performance side for

01:16:25.909 --> 01:16:28.729
a while now. And I was like, oh, my God. Yeah.

01:16:29.069 --> 01:16:31.770
What an idiot. Of course. So absolutely. Like

01:16:31.770 --> 01:16:34.750
you said, understanding, you know, if you if

01:16:34.750 --> 01:16:36.670
you I mean, if you had 24 hours at a station,

01:16:36.770 --> 01:16:38.470
whether you get a call or not, you're in that

01:16:38.470 --> 01:16:40.270
heightened state. Your sleep is going to be,

01:16:40.270 --> 01:16:43.510
you know, less than optimal. that next day should

01:16:43.510 --> 01:16:46.510
be a kind of low intensity workout and then probably

01:16:46.510 --> 01:16:49.630
the following day or if you got a 24 72 the third

01:16:49.630 --> 01:16:51.810
day would be your like i'm gonna have today it's

01:16:51.810 --> 01:16:54.050
deadlift day at the gym that's when i would do

01:16:54.050 --> 01:16:56.689
that workout but you know the number of times

01:16:56.689 --> 01:16:58.430
you know there's fran the next day coming off

01:16:58.430 --> 01:17:00.590
shift and of course not i mean you're just gonna

01:17:00.590 --> 01:17:02.810
get frustrated you're gonna get burnt out and

01:17:02.810 --> 01:17:04.550
you're gonna be feeling even worse than when

01:17:04.550 --> 01:17:07.090
you arrive but i think that's why we have to

01:17:07.090 --> 01:17:08.949
educate our firefighters just like you said of

01:17:09.430 --> 01:17:12.770
Maybe a longer, consistent workout. I mean, just

01:17:12.770 --> 01:17:15.449
a basic workout when you come off your shift.

01:17:15.630 --> 01:17:18.069
But I think that's that education piece, just

01:17:18.069 --> 01:17:20.390
like you said, of not a high -stress workout,

01:17:20.430 --> 01:17:24.350
but something to burn that cortisol in a way

01:17:24.350 --> 01:17:27.630
that's an even -kill type workout. Absolutely.

01:17:27.750 --> 01:17:31.170
Well, you mentioned about after the 95 bombing.

01:17:32.039 --> 01:17:34.020
the funding coming through and just, you know,

01:17:34.039 --> 01:17:36.539
finally depleting it a few years ago. What have

01:17:36.539 --> 01:17:39.420
you seen as far as the evolution of the mental

01:17:39.420 --> 01:17:42.039
health conversation and tools in your department

01:17:42.039 --> 01:17:47.079
specifically? Well, we have, again, a licensed

01:17:47.079 --> 01:17:50.159
professional counselor that's on staff, a pretty

01:17:50.159 --> 01:17:53.750
robust peer support team. We have a chaplain.

01:17:53.789 --> 01:17:57.729
So we are constantly pushing that. We have a

01:17:57.729 --> 01:18:00.970
family support team. We have a retiree support

01:18:00.970 --> 01:18:06.449
team in that. So we do things in that space of

01:18:06.449 --> 01:18:10.029
really educating. You know, we do the normal

01:18:10.029 --> 01:18:13.630
stuff like most departments. We have a potentially

01:18:13.630 --> 01:18:16.470
traumatic event. where they can push that on

01:18:16.470 --> 01:18:18.770
their record management system and we can track

01:18:18.770 --> 01:18:22.449
those. So a lot of that is the openness of space

01:18:22.449 --> 01:18:26.770
of conversation. But we also, everyone's different.

01:18:26.829 --> 01:18:30.670
I'm not here to tell someone. We still do diffusings

01:18:30.670 --> 01:18:34.250
if we have a pretty significant event. We do

01:18:34.250 --> 01:18:37.229
a lot of follow -up. We're very active in that.

01:18:37.350 --> 01:18:40.670
We do, with our recruits, when they come on board,

01:18:40.810 --> 01:18:45.460
we do. reoccurring family support nights, talking

01:18:45.460 --> 01:18:48.300
about that. So I think everything that we do,

01:18:48.340 --> 01:18:50.739
we're trying to be intentional of putting that

01:18:50.739 --> 01:18:55.739
space in the space of how do you maintain behavior

01:18:55.739 --> 01:18:59.680
health. And our wellness team is also a wellness

01:18:59.680 --> 01:19:01.600
committee. It's not just about physical health.

01:19:01.760 --> 01:19:06.100
It's holistic health. In this next Recruit Academy,

01:19:06.920 --> 01:19:09.890
we're going to do cognitive. How do you deal,

01:19:10.010 --> 01:19:12.109
you know, cognitive thinking? How do you look

01:19:12.109 --> 01:19:14.109
at that forward? And they're going to do one

01:19:14.109 --> 01:19:18.189
to two hours a week on that. The cognitive space

01:19:18.189 --> 01:19:21.109
of how working through that with our clinician.

01:19:22.369 --> 01:19:24.590
Talk to them about heart rate variability. So

01:19:24.590 --> 01:19:27.390
everything we do on that is continuous education

01:19:27.390 --> 01:19:32.890
with our members. And we're just learning. The

01:19:32.890 --> 01:19:35.510
main thing is we have an app that they can utilize.

01:19:36.250 --> 01:19:39.989
We use the Lighthouse app, which is okay. I'm

01:19:39.989 --> 01:19:42.829
not saying the app's okay. It's just you do a

01:19:42.829 --> 01:19:44.989
lot of things that don't reach as many members

01:19:44.989 --> 01:19:49.029
as you'd like. We have our clinician. She goes

01:19:49.029 --> 01:19:51.550
out. She even does ride -alongs. She's very active

01:19:51.550 --> 01:19:54.590
in the space. Everyone that comes to our wellness

01:19:54.590 --> 01:19:58.289
center for their – when they do their WFI initiative,

01:19:58.470 --> 01:20:01.289
we have our clinician there. My long -term goal

01:20:01.289 --> 01:20:03.449
is that when they come in, not only do they –

01:20:03.840 --> 01:20:06.619
The wellness fitness assessment will also do

01:20:06.619 --> 01:20:09.760
a check in with the behavior health person. So

01:20:09.760 --> 01:20:13.439
we're continuing evolution of that. But the main

01:20:13.439 --> 01:20:15.560
thing is that we want to show support of that.

01:20:16.000 --> 01:20:18.460
Someone's going through a difficult time. We

01:20:18.460 --> 01:20:20.819
have very active. We have a foundation through

01:20:20.819 --> 01:20:23.500
our local help people to get behavior health

01:20:23.500 --> 01:20:26.300
help where it's center of excellence, whatever

01:20:26.300 --> 01:20:29.340
it may be. You know, we're very cognizant of

01:20:29.340 --> 01:20:33.090
that. making sure that we take care of our people.

01:20:33.170 --> 01:20:36.390
We have time off that we can do. If they are

01:20:36.390 --> 01:20:38.529
going through a difficult time, I can give admin

01:20:38.529 --> 01:20:43.949
leave for certain points. So we're doing some.

01:20:44.149 --> 01:20:46.210
Is there still areas that we want to continue

01:20:46.210 --> 01:20:49.329
to move and grow? Yes. But we're really trying

01:20:49.329 --> 01:20:52.939
to hit. every avenue and normalize that where

01:20:52.939 --> 01:20:55.600
people can talk about it. My next phase, I've

01:20:55.600 --> 01:20:57.539
really wanted to move into how do we get the

01:20:57.539 --> 01:21:00.359
company officer involved in that, check -ins,

01:21:00.359 --> 01:21:02.340
making sure they're involved, really training

01:21:02.340 --> 01:21:07.079
them to create where they're humble and they're

01:21:07.079 --> 01:21:10.239
open on stressful events and really talk to them

01:21:10.239 --> 01:21:12.859
more. I would love to say we're there organizationally.

01:21:12.880 --> 01:21:14.420
Some of our officers are better than others,

01:21:14.520 --> 01:21:17.159
but really trying to look at that from a holistic

01:21:17.159 --> 01:21:19.489
approach. throughout the entire organization.

01:21:20.550 --> 01:21:22.390
It's funny you say that because I was just talking

01:21:22.390 --> 01:21:23.810
to someone the other day. I think it was in law

01:21:23.810 --> 01:21:26.649
enforcement, if I'm not mistaken. And the same

01:21:26.649 --> 01:21:30.010
point was made that they were doing, you know,

01:21:30.010 --> 01:21:31.449
there was this mental health training, but they

01:21:31.449 --> 01:21:33.829
wanted to put it into company officers because

01:21:33.829 --> 01:21:36.430
ultimately it's just interaction. It's human

01:21:36.430 --> 01:21:39.239
interaction. So it's not like they're learning

01:21:39.239 --> 01:21:41.979
all these kind of Sigmund Freud -esque psychology,

01:21:42.220 --> 01:21:45.420
you know, specific things. They're just learning

01:21:45.420 --> 01:21:47.520
how to interact with people, how to create an

01:21:47.520 --> 01:21:50.180
environment where someone can ask for help or

01:21:50.180 --> 01:21:53.640
someone can offload their trauma or just be courageously

01:21:53.640 --> 01:21:56.199
vulnerable full stop. So it makes perfect sense

01:21:56.199 --> 01:21:59.039
to apply it to that field as well. Well, if you

01:21:59.039 --> 01:22:01.239
think about it, when we first hired our clinician.

01:22:01.850 --> 01:22:04.010
We've had her a couple of years. People call

01:22:04.010 --> 01:22:05.930
her and say, hey, I need you to call and check

01:22:05.930 --> 01:22:09.210
this person. She's like, hang on. This needs

01:22:09.210 --> 01:22:12.550
to be pushed down to where you are. You're the

01:22:12.550 --> 01:22:15.069
one they trust. You're the one they want to talk

01:22:15.069 --> 01:22:16.630
to. If you bring it the other way, it looks like

01:22:16.630 --> 01:22:19.670
an intervention. You need to develop this of

01:22:19.670 --> 01:22:23.010
our leaders and those that they feel comfortable

01:22:23.010 --> 01:22:24.989
with, that they are with every day, those that

01:22:24.989 --> 01:22:26.949
they break bread with and have a relationship.

01:22:28.000 --> 01:22:30.939
that we're the ones checking in and making sure

01:22:30.939 --> 01:22:34.180
they're okay and recognizing that and then pointing

01:22:34.180 --> 01:22:37.220
them to resources or making sure they're getting

01:22:37.220 --> 01:22:42.600
help in that space. Absolutely. Well, you mentioned

01:22:42.600 --> 01:22:46.479
retirees earlier. In this presentation, there's

01:22:46.479 --> 01:22:50.119
a slide and it said that in 2024, because people

01:22:50.119 --> 01:22:51.680
ask me for the data all the time, well, show

01:22:51.680 --> 01:22:54.850
me the data about this work week. And if you

01:22:54.850 --> 01:22:57.130
look at the data, supposedly only 72 firefighters

01:22:57.130 --> 01:23:00.329
died last year. Now, we all know I could name

01:23:00.329 --> 01:23:02.250
72 probably in the state of Florida, no matter

01:23:02.250 --> 01:23:04.729
the whole country. And that's not, you know,

01:23:04.729 --> 01:23:07.770
even the ones that then air quotes died suddenly

01:23:07.770 --> 01:23:10.369
that we all know exactly what the backstory was,

01:23:10.449 --> 01:23:13.350
suicide, overdose, et cetera. But then I asked

01:23:13.350 --> 01:23:15.590
the room, but this even then I said, which is

01:23:15.590 --> 01:23:19.789
the grossly, you know, underrepresented, you

01:23:19.789 --> 01:23:22.520
know, portion of the fire service. And a couple

01:23:22.520 --> 01:23:25.260
of people said retirees. Exactly. So there is

01:23:25.260 --> 01:23:28.220
no VA for the first responders. So the moment

01:23:28.220 --> 01:23:30.760
that door closes behind your back, that last

01:23:30.760 --> 01:23:34.220
day, you cease to be a statistic. And when does

01:23:34.220 --> 01:23:36.680
most disease and mental health issues, when do

01:23:36.680 --> 01:23:39.170
they normally manifest? Once you've left the

01:23:39.170 --> 01:23:41.149
job and you've lost that purpose and identity

01:23:41.149 --> 01:23:43.710
and tribe and you age out to the point where

01:23:43.710 --> 01:23:45.829
your cardiac has issues and cancer and all the

01:23:45.829 --> 01:23:48.310
other things. So it's interesting that you mentioned

01:23:48.310 --> 01:23:51.050
that you are still tapping into your retirees.

01:23:51.050 --> 01:23:53.529
So talk to me about how you view the men and

01:23:53.529 --> 01:23:57.409
women that were wearing the uniform that have

01:23:57.409 --> 01:24:00.770
transitioned out. I would love to say that we've

01:24:00.770 --> 01:24:04.689
conquered this. So please, this is not we. Our

01:24:04.689 --> 01:24:07.550
goal is when they retire, we connect them to

01:24:07.550 --> 01:24:11.930
a peer support person. And that's a retiree that

01:24:11.930 --> 01:24:15.829
can connect with them, help them. And that way

01:24:15.829 --> 01:24:19.109
they know that someone's still there. The biggest

01:24:19.109 --> 01:24:21.890
challenge is how do you continue that on? Because

01:24:21.890 --> 01:24:25.409
many times we all know that the challenges are,

01:24:25.529 --> 01:24:28.489
okay, you do that. When that person goes off

01:24:28.489 --> 01:24:31.319
and starts having a bad time, tough time. Well,

01:24:31.340 --> 01:24:33.220
they may not reach out to that person. If you're

01:24:33.220 --> 01:24:35.100
not there, you don't know because there's not

01:24:35.100 --> 01:24:38.159
that constant relationship every day. So we're

01:24:38.159 --> 01:24:41.220
still in that space of trying to figure out how

01:24:41.220 --> 01:24:43.180
do we do things through the foundation. We're

01:24:43.180 --> 01:24:46.260
working with our foundation through our local,

01:24:46.340 --> 01:24:50.659
trying to identify how do we create events or

01:24:50.659 --> 01:24:53.399
gatherings or things to where it brings those

01:24:53.399 --> 01:24:57.020
people into space again and where we have people

01:24:57.020 --> 01:25:01.000
there they can talk to. We haven't totally conquered

01:25:01.000 --> 01:25:03.960
that. I'll just be straight. We do connect them

01:25:03.960 --> 01:25:05.859
with someone and we have those people there.

01:25:06.020 --> 01:25:09.779
But the reality, you said it, when they go, they

01:25:09.779 --> 01:25:12.399
feel like they're not a part anymore. And we

01:25:12.399 --> 01:25:15.920
see those that retire with a purpose are more

01:25:15.920 --> 01:25:18.859
successful than those that just retire. And I

01:25:18.859 --> 01:25:20.680
think that's another part we're trying to do

01:25:20.680 --> 01:25:24.619
is set up meetings and training and how people

01:25:24.619 --> 01:25:28.319
retire and go through that with them. But it's

01:25:28.319 --> 01:25:32.659
very difficult because as in every case, is someone

01:25:32.659 --> 01:25:34.479
going through a challenge, they have to want

01:25:34.479 --> 01:25:36.840
help. It's the same thing for someone retiring.

01:25:36.899 --> 01:25:40.239
They have to want to hear that because it's tough.

01:25:40.520 --> 01:25:43.260
But we're still learning from that. But we do

01:25:43.260 --> 01:25:47.520
connect them when they retire to that, to a peer

01:25:47.520 --> 01:25:51.039
support person that's a retiree that's been there.

01:25:52.579 --> 01:25:57.840
But it's still. I'm just saying we haven't fully

01:25:57.840 --> 01:26:01.479
conquered that, but we're working through that

01:26:01.479 --> 01:26:04.260
to try to identify ways. We have partnered. There's

01:26:04.260 --> 01:26:07.859
ODP. officer program that's actually set up by

01:26:07.859 --> 01:26:10.520
a police officer here. And he was an Edmund police

01:26:10.520 --> 01:26:13.220
officer. And it's designed when people retire

01:26:13.220 --> 01:26:16.579
to help them if they want to seek employment

01:26:16.579 --> 01:26:19.279
afterwards, because a lot of fire police retire

01:26:19.279 --> 01:26:23.199
at a younger age that still have time left. And

01:26:23.199 --> 01:26:27.260
so that program, we're using the... leadership

01:26:27.260 --> 01:26:29.779
of that program to do some training if our people

01:26:29.779 --> 01:26:32.380
are interested. And they help people learn to

01:26:32.380 --> 01:26:34.720
write resumes and do stuff that people may have

01:26:34.720 --> 01:26:37.340
not have done for years and try to help that.

01:26:37.399 --> 01:26:39.640
So the whole goal of what we're trying to do

01:26:39.640 --> 01:26:41.619
is let people know you have to retire with a

01:26:41.619 --> 01:26:44.220
purpose, not just a purpose to retire and sit

01:26:44.220 --> 01:26:47.920
on a couch and do what is a purpose. So some

01:26:47.920 --> 01:26:49.779
of that's what we're trying to do and recognize

01:26:49.779 --> 01:26:52.279
how do we help, not just the peer support, but

01:26:52.279 --> 01:26:55.340
how do we get people prepared for that? Yeah.

01:26:56.140 --> 01:26:58.720
What you said as far as the purpose is so spot

01:26:58.720 --> 01:27:00.680
on. I know people that have left the military,

01:27:00.859 --> 01:27:02.720
first responders, and initially they got into

01:27:02.720 --> 01:27:06.699
finance or, you know, some other similar profession

01:27:06.699 --> 01:27:09.239
and they were just completely unfulfilled. And

01:27:09.239 --> 01:27:11.760
it was a real struggle for them. And I always

01:27:11.760 --> 01:27:13.960
say, well, look, you were always this kind of

01:27:13.960 --> 01:27:16.520
person. You just happen to put on a certain uniform

01:27:16.520 --> 01:27:19.300
for a couple of decades, but that doesn't define

01:27:19.300 --> 01:27:21.500
who you are. You were always the person that

01:27:21.500 --> 01:27:22.880
wanted to make the world a little bit better.

01:27:23.140 --> 01:27:25.420
So when you're transitioning out, what does that

01:27:25.420 --> 01:27:28.000
look like now? It might be that you're a landscaper

01:27:28.000 --> 01:27:31.630
and you just love, you know. changing someone's

01:27:31.630 --> 01:27:34.090
backyard into a place where they can sit with

01:27:34.090 --> 01:27:36.989
a cup of coffee and be tranquil. If that's nurturing

01:27:36.989 --> 01:27:38.949
for you, that's brilliant. Or it might be starting

01:27:38.949 --> 01:27:41.850
a nonprofit. But if it's something in a kind

01:27:41.850 --> 01:27:44.729
of very superficial, materialistic world that

01:27:44.729 --> 01:27:46.689
we know exists outside our professions, that

01:27:46.689 --> 01:27:49.130
maybe, just maybe, that's not going to satisfy

01:27:49.130 --> 01:27:52.390
the kind of person that you actually are. Right.

01:27:52.569 --> 01:27:56.390
Definitely. Still learning in that space. Absolutely.

01:27:56.470 --> 01:27:58.510
Well, just staying on that, if you were king

01:27:58.510 --> 01:28:02.479
for a day, You had unlimited budget. What would

01:28:02.479 --> 01:28:04.579
you put in place so that we could take better

01:28:04.579 --> 01:28:07.300
care of our men and women that serve for 15,

01:28:07.520 --> 01:28:11.199
20, 25 years in uniform and have now transitioned

01:28:11.199 --> 01:28:15.520
out to not wearing it anymore? I think that it's

01:28:15.520 --> 01:28:18.300
a sense of belonging. I think I would create

01:28:18.300 --> 01:28:24.439
some space where they could be a part of. Again,

01:28:24.579 --> 01:28:27.300
those that are happy, they have family, they

01:28:27.300 --> 01:28:29.979
have those who don't see that, but just that

01:28:29.979 --> 01:28:33.859
opportunity of what that space looks like. Maybe

01:28:33.859 --> 01:28:36.819
it'd be a wellness center and that's something

01:28:36.819 --> 01:28:38.380
that we're trying to work on where they could

01:28:38.380 --> 01:28:42.399
go to work out with fire and police or other

01:28:42.399 --> 01:28:46.159
like minds, something like that. Because what

01:28:46.159 --> 01:28:48.600
I see many times is unfortunately people retire.

01:28:48.720 --> 01:28:51.500
And I'm not saying having a drink or doing that

01:28:51.500 --> 01:28:54.880
is not. But what we see is many times they're

01:28:54.880 --> 01:28:58.239
socializing over alcohol or doing that. And that

01:28:58.239 --> 01:29:01.140
becomes it's not the socializing. It's the alcohol

01:29:01.140 --> 01:29:03.779
or those. Again, I'm not saying having a drink

01:29:03.779 --> 01:29:05.920
or something like that. But when it becomes that's

01:29:05.920 --> 01:29:08.760
what it's fixated on. And we know that it's not

01:29:08.760 --> 01:29:12.359
a healthy environment. But I would like to create

01:29:12.359 --> 01:29:14.479
if I had all the money in the world, some space.

01:29:14.840 --> 01:29:17.520
I'm a gym guy. So I think I would create this

01:29:17.520 --> 01:29:21.229
huge gym. That is open and, you know, not just

01:29:21.229 --> 01:29:23.270
gym. There's other opportunity because not everybody's

01:29:23.270 --> 01:29:27.270
into fitness, but a gym centric that has other

01:29:27.270 --> 01:29:30.409
things in their wellness type center. That was

01:29:30.409 --> 01:29:34.590
for, you know, police and fire retirees and everybody,

01:29:34.710 --> 01:29:38.109
because I think it helps sometimes of being connected

01:29:38.109 --> 01:29:40.890
to those are still on the job to feel like you're

01:29:40.890 --> 01:29:43.369
a part of it. So that big space, that would be

01:29:43.369 --> 01:29:46.310
something in my mind. Now I could be told by.

01:29:47.069 --> 01:29:49.149
Someone that has a lot more knowledge and experience.

01:29:49.170 --> 01:29:51.789
But if I was king and I could do it, that's probably

01:29:51.789 --> 01:29:54.289
what would be big for me to create that space.

01:29:54.470 --> 01:29:57.149
And then do events where people could be invited

01:29:57.149 --> 01:30:00.350
and families. I think that sometimes we isolate

01:30:00.350 --> 01:30:03.630
the family from us is maybe make it that open

01:30:03.630 --> 01:30:06.630
environment for families. I've had people say

01:30:06.630 --> 01:30:09.430
as well, just bringing retirees back in for training.

01:30:09.569 --> 01:30:11.609
You know, for example, you got all these young

01:30:11.609 --> 01:30:13.869
Oklahoma firefighters now having people that

01:30:13.869 --> 01:30:15.750
were at the bombing. You know, what were the

01:30:15.750 --> 01:30:17.789
takeaways? What were the things that went wrong,

01:30:17.869 --> 01:30:20.189
things that didn't? I mean, this is we lose so

01:30:20.189 --> 01:30:22.489
much knowledge and experience, especially now.

01:30:22.630 --> 01:30:24.409
I mean, with this crisis, people are leaving

01:30:24.409 --> 01:30:26.710
sooner. So it's becoming a younger and younger

01:30:26.710 --> 01:30:29.149
department. So, of course, some people will move

01:30:29.149 --> 01:30:31.430
away and it won't be applicable. But if you've

01:30:31.430 --> 01:30:33.890
got local firefighters that come back and help

01:30:33.890 --> 01:30:36.670
teach, you know, vehicle extrication or whatever

01:30:36.670 --> 01:30:39.029
the things are, they just feel a little bit more

01:30:39.029 --> 01:30:41.649
connected. And you're learning from, you know,

01:30:41.689 --> 01:30:45.510
a veteran firefighter as well. Definitely. All

01:30:45.510 --> 01:30:46.710
right. Well, speaking of that, I want to hit

01:30:46.710 --> 01:30:48.590
one more area, then we'll do some closing questions.

01:30:49.529 --> 01:30:52.289
Since 1995, I know you've been involved with

01:30:52.289 --> 01:30:56.270
the technical rescue side as well. What has been

01:30:56.270 --> 01:30:58.689
the lessons learned? Not that anything was done

01:30:58.689 --> 01:31:00.949
poorly, because obviously that was completely

01:31:00.949 --> 01:31:03.090
unprecedented. But what has been the evolution

01:31:03.090 --> 01:31:05.949
from the tech rescue side from a city that was

01:31:05.949 --> 01:31:11.770
so involved back then? Well, we created an urban

01:31:11.770 --> 01:31:14.090
search and rescue team. I was fortunate to build

01:31:14.090 --> 01:31:16.149
that here. It's a state team. But I think we

01:31:16.149 --> 01:31:20.350
learned in that that one of the things I'll just

01:31:20.350 --> 01:31:22.340
tell you that can happen anywhere. That was one

01:31:22.340 --> 01:31:23.979
of the things I could tell you just in the space

01:31:23.979 --> 01:31:26.760
of I think people think it has to be a huge city

01:31:26.760 --> 01:31:29.619
somewhere, New York City, L .A. It can happen

01:31:29.619 --> 01:31:33.439
anywhere. But I think what we learned and what

01:31:33.439 --> 01:31:35.619
I feel from the bombing was not just in the tech

01:31:35.619 --> 01:31:38.260
rescue space, but you need to go out and learn.

01:31:38.619 --> 01:31:41.659
We send a lot of people. We go to FDIC. We go

01:31:41.659 --> 01:31:44.420
to a lot of conferences. We send a lot of people

01:31:44.420 --> 01:31:47.119
out because I think if you live in your own environment.

01:31:47.869 --> 01:31:50.350
you're, you know, a prophet has no honor in the

01:31:50.350 --> 01:31:52.710
hometown. You know, we go out and look and bring

01:31:52.710 --> 01:31:56.029
that back. And so I will say, especially in the

01:31:56.029 --> 01:31:58.250
tech rescue space and other areas, we can't learn.

01:31:58.510 --> 01:32:00.750
Go out and look what's there, best practices,

01:32:00.949 --> 01:32:02.649
learn from that, come back and challenge our

01:32:02.649 --> 01:32:04.829
practices and say, is there something we could

01:32:04.829 --> 01:32:07.729
do better? So that is an area we've learned and

01:32:07.729 --> 01:32:10.250
we have to be prepared. We do a lot of deployments.

01:32:10.529 --> 01:32:12.510
Even though we're a state team, we've been deployed

01:32:12.510 --> 01:32:15.250
outside the state a lot. We've been to a lot

01:32:15.250 --> 01:32:17.550
of hurricanes, a lot of other areas, just being

01:32:17.550 --> 01:32:20.090
prepared. I think the preparedness side of that

01:32:20.090 --> 01:32:21.890
and being prepared for whatever may happen has

01:32:21.890 --> 01:32:25.279
been big for us to learn. What about tornadoes?

01:32:25.279 --> 01:32:26.640
I was talking to someone the other day about

01:32:26.640 --> 01:32:28.619
that. It's something that we hear less of. Obviously,

01:32:28.619 --> 01:32:31.079
a lot of my guests are on the East Coast. Hurricanes,

01:32:31.159 --> 01:32:33.460
as you mentioned, are a big thing for us. What

01:32:33.460 --> 01:32:35.739
are the idiosyncrasies or maybe even some of

01:32:35.739 --> 01:32:40.279
the biggest events that you've responded to when

01:32:40.279 --> 01:32:43.800
it comes to that specific element of Mother Nature?

01:32:45.199 --> 01:32:48.359
We are well -versed in tornado response, unfortunately.

01:32:50.039 --> 01:32:52.640
You know, the May 3rd, 1999 was the highest wind

01:32:52.640 --> 01:32:54.579
speed ever recorded on the face of the earth

01:32:54.579 --> 01:32:57.399
at like 325 miles an hour that came through our

01:32:57.399 --> 01:33:01.140
city. 58 lives, I believe, were lost, not just

01:33:01.140 --> 01:33:04.319
in Oklahoma City, throughout that event. Unfortunate.

01:33:05.840 --> 01:33:08.800
You know, we had 2012, we had one that hit a

01:33:08.800 --> 01:33:12.560
school, killed. several kids at a school, unfortunately.

01:33:12.760 --> 01:33:15.159
It was actually in Moore, but it actually came

01:33:15.159 --> 01:33:17.619
through my kid's school that they grew up, Briarwood,

01:33:17.800 --> 01:33:20.439
went straight through that school directly east,

01:33:20.579 --> 01:33:23.159
which was east of it, about half a mile, even

01:33:23.159 --> 01:33:25.140
that far east, hit that school and unfortunately

01:33:25.140 --> 01:33:28.060
killed some kids there. Fortunate the kids at

01:33:28.060 --> 01:33:30.380
Briarwood were not, no one killed there because

01:33:30.380 --> 01:33:32.539
it destroyed the school and I lived right by

01:33:32.539 --> 01:33:36.060
it. So we've had a lot of tornado responses here.

01:33:36.920 --> 01:33:38.859
We haven't had tornadoes here the last couple

01:33:38.859 --> 01:33:41.560
of weeks. We just get prepared and get ourselves

01:33:41.560 --> 01:33:43.979
prepared to respond to. So it's a challenge that

01:33:43.979 --> 01:33:46.899
we have to be prepared for every year. We live

01:33:46.899 --> 01:33:49.039
in what's known as Tornado Alley. Even though

01:33:49.039 --> 01:33:51.119
it's shifting a little bit, it's always been

01:33:51.119 --> 01:33:53.340
Tornado Alley. So we're always prepared for it.

01:33:54.060 --> 01:33:55.939
Brilliant. I appreciate that. All right. Well,

01:33:56.000 --> 01:33:58.079
then go into the closing questions. The first

01:33:58.079 --> 01:34:00.819
one I love to ask, is there a book or are there

01:34:00.819 --> 01:34:03.300
books that you love to recommend? It can be related

01:34:03.300 --> 01:34:05.479
to our discussion today or completely unrelated.

01:34:06.350 --> 01:34:08.850
You know, one that I always for me, it's all

01:34:08.850 --> 01:34:13.369
time go to is Angela Duckworth's Grit. It's one

01:34:13.369 --> 01:34:17.729
of my favorite books. I relate to it a lot. It

01:34:17.729 --> 01:34:20.149
has a little bit in deliberate practice and talks

01:34:20.149 --> 01:34:22.890
in different areas. But it's just a book for

01:34:22.890 --> 01:34:26.829
me that I love the background experience in that.

01:34:26.909 --> 01:34:30.199
And to me, I always use the term what. If I could

01:34:30.199 --> 01:34:33.739
describe one word best for firefighters and what

01:34:33.739 --> 01:34:36.439
they need to be successful, it's grit. And so

01:34:36.439 --> 01:34:39.560
I just think that book is a great read. With

01:34:39.560 --> 01:34:42.720
the Academy, what is your perception of setting

01:34:42.720 --> 01:34:45.819
the bar high? And the reason I say that is what

01:34:45.819 --> 01:34:48.720
I've seen as far as camaraderie and cohesion.

01:34:49.279 --> 01:34:51.119
I've worked for four different departments, four

01:34:51.119 --> 01:34:53.399
different kind of orientations slash academies.

01:34:53.819 --> 01:34:57.279
The ones that set the bar extremely high. in

01:34:57.279 --> 01:35:00.079
my opinion, forged a very, very close -knit class

01:35:00.079 --> 01:35:03.159
and just prepared me much better for the fire

01:35:03.159 --> 01:35:06.460
service. There are areas around the country now

01:35:06.460 --> 01:35:08.380
where we're seeing that bar being brought down

01:35:08.380 --> 01:35:12.939
further and further for a kind of, in my opinion,

01:35:12.979 --> 01:35:15.699
fictional belief that if you lower the bar, you'll

01:35:15.699 --> 01:35:18.739
get more people. So when grit is your favorite

01:35:18.739 --> 01:35:21.199
word, talk to me about how high you set the bar

01:35:21.199 --> 01:35:24.340
at the front door in your department. Well, I'm

01:35:24.340 --> 01:35:26.560
fortunate. Our training staff are phenomenal.

01:35:26.840 --> 01:35:29.079
And I'm not just saying this. I think if anybody

01:35:29.079 --> 01:35:31.159
came, I think we run one of the best recruit

01:35:31.159 --> 01:35:35.319
academies in the nation. They are always looking

01:35:35.319 --> 01:35:40.039
at how to improve. And, you know, we all know

01:35:40.039 --> 01:35:42.500
we could create things where people are not successful.

01:35:42.920 --> 01:35:45.960
And what I love is they look at that, you know,

01:35:45.960 --> 01:35:48.100
kind of the military style. How do you how do

01:35:48.100 --> 01:35:50.949
you stop break them down? But how do you, you

01:35:50.949 --> 01:35:54.310
know, you build that? We call it forge. Our training

01:35:54.310 --> 01:35:56.989
grounds called the forge and that's how we forge.

01:35:57.010 --> 01:36:00.850
And it's part of our value statement forged by

01:36:00.850 --> 01:36:04.189
integrity and professionalism. And to me, they

01:36:04.189 --> 01:36:07.090
build that and everything they do. And I think

01:36:07.090 --> 01:36:09.869
what we do is you don't lower expectations. You

01:36:09.869 --> 01:36:12.670
help them achieve those and set why they're high

01:36:12.670 --> 01:36:16.430
and you hold that expectation. And I think. It

01:36:16.430 --> 01:36:19.569
creates within your organization foundationally

01:36:19.569 --> 01:36:22.090
how you can build and improve. If you lower the

01:36:22.090 --> 01:36:23.630
standards, then you're lowering the standards

01:36:23.630 --> 01:36:26.430
of the entire organization. And I think you don't

01:36:26.430 --> 01:36:28.670
want to set them so far off the mark no one can

01:36:28.670 --> 01:36:31.170
meet them, but you want to stress how high they

01:36:31.170 --> 01:36:34.550
need to be to really have people excel and meet

01:36:34.550 --> 01:36:36.130
that. And then they're going to be appreciative

01:36:36.130 --> 01:36:39.619
of that. Court Smith, who's our training coordinator,

01:36:39.899 --> 01:36:41.920
he's passionate. That's the whole reason he went

01:36:41.920 --> 01:36:44.220
down there. He was a company officer in the field

01:36:44.220 --> 01:36:47.840
and he wanted to build that. And we have continuous

01:36:47.840 --> 01:36:50.699
training staff that come in, work with him to

01:36:50.699 --> 01:36:53.739
support that. And they are really focused on

01:36:53.739 --> 01:36:57.319
raising the bar. What I've seen in my career,

01:36:57.420 --> 01:36:58.920
and I'm interested to get your perception of

01:36:58.920 --> 01:37:02.779
this, is when departments are known to have a

01:37:02.779 --> 01:37:05.939
high standard. that attracts the right kind of

01:37:05.939 --> 01:37:08.600
person. And you do have lines around the building.

01:37:09.159 --> 01:37:11.460
And then conversely, the opposite happens. What's

01:37:11.460 --> 01:37:15.300
your perception of that? 100%. Now, I believe

01:37:15.300 --> 01:37:17.760
there's a lot of, in the metro here, there's

01:37:17.760 --> 01:37:20.140
some really good departments that they have a

01:37:20.140 --> 01:37:23.819
high bar for their academy. So, you know, to

01:37:23.819 --> 01:37:27.899
me, iron sharpens iron. But I firmly believe

01:37:27.899 --> 01:37:30.199
in that, that you have to have those high standards.

01:37:30.279 --> 01:37:32.560
And when you hold them that, those, again, if

01:37:32.560 --> 01:37:34.380
they don't want to come to your organization

01:37:34.380 --> 01:37:36.539
because they think it's too hard, then I always

01:37:36.539 --> 01:37:38.020
will shake their hand and thank them for where

01:37:38.020 --> 01:37:40.100
they're at. But we're glad. I don't want you

01:37:40.100 --> 01:37:41.619
to come to our organization because you think

01:37:41.619 --> 01:37:43.500
it's going to be easy. I want you to come to

01:37:43.500 --> 01:37:45.119
our organization because you know you're going

01:37:45.119 --> 01:37:47.539
to be the best of the best. We have a saying,

01:37:47.619 --> 01:37:49.619
and the chief fire to me said this. He says,

01:37:49.699 --> 01:37:52.279
you work for the best fire department in the

01:37:52.279 --> 01:37:54.560
nation. If you don't believe that you're in the

01:37:54.560 --> 01:37:56.840
wrong place and that's the way they should feel

01:37:56.840 --> 01:37:59.340
when you come in. It's not a it's not a knock

01:37:59.340 --> 01:38:01.680
against another organization, but you don't believe

01:38:01.680 --> 01:38:03.279
you're at the best organization. You're in the

01:38:03.279 --> 01:38:05.899
wrong place. You need to go find that. Absolutely.

01:38:06.300 --> 01:38:08.000
All right. Well, then we talked about books.

01:38:08.100 --> 01:38:11.380
What about films and documentaries? Any of those

01:38:11.380 --> 01:38:15.100
that you love? You know, it's funny when you

01:38:15.100 --> 01:38:18.119
say I'm probably one of those. I just watched

01:38:18.119 --> 01:38:22.739
The Gladiator 2. I know that for me, everything

01:38:22.739 --> 01:38:27.880
about that, I have a warrior spirit. So I love

01:38:27.880 --> 01:38:31.899
the Gladiator series, Braveheart, like that.

01:38:31.960 --> 01:38:35.180
Those are movies for me. I'm a war guy. I love

01:38:35.180 --> 01:38:37.619
the war movies. Obviously, Saving Private Ryan

01:38:37.619 --> 01:38:40.079
is one of those that's up there. Anything like

01:38:40.079 --> 01:38:42.859
that to me. The Band of Brothers series was just

01:38:42.859 --> 01:38:47.609
phenomenal. Things like that. I never was in

01:38:47.609 --> 01:38:51.210
the military. I lost an uncle in the Korean War.

01:38:51.470 --> 01:38:54.890
He was POW, never survived, had an uncle that

01:38:54.890 --> 01:38:56.590
was in World War II. He was on a battleship that

01:38:56.590 --> 01:39:01.189
got sunk. So for me, anything to do with war

01:39:01.189 --> 01:39:05.090
and teamwork and how that, I really am drawn

01:39:05.090 --> 01:39:08.300
to that. Beautiful. Yeah, some great, great shows

01:39:08.300 --> 01:39:10.760
there. All right. Well, then the next question,

01:39:10.880 --> 01:39:13.100
is there a person that you'd recommend to come

01:39:13.100 --> 01:39:16.220
on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first

01:39:16.220 --> 01:39:18.539
responders, military and associated professions

01:39:18.539 --> 01:39:24.479
of the world? You know, I think one person, this

01:39:24.479 --> 01:39:26.319
is probably going to be often if I said this,

01:39:26.319 --> 01:39:30.239
someone would probably. He's an interesting guy

01:39:30.239 --> 01:39:33.319
and I really respect him, but he retired from

01:39:33.319 --> 01:39:36.289
our department. He was ours. And I. Probably

01:39:36.289 --> 01:39:38.630
if someone said I said this, I'd probably go,

01:39:38.689 --> 01:39:43.529
wow. Mike Shannon was our special operations

01:39:43.529 --> 01:39:46.850
chief during the bombing. He retired, big military

01:39:46.850 --> 01:39:53.489
guy. He was, you know, in the military. But he

01:39:53.489 --> 01:39:56.229
has a very interesting, he did a lot of training

01:39:56.229 --> 01:39:59.420
after he retired. But he was our special operations

01:39:59.420 --> 01:40:01.840
chief during the bombing. Just a very interesting

01:40:01.840 --> 01:40:05.260
guy. Big Civil War buff guy just because of that

01:40:05.260 --> 01:40:10.560
background. If not, if not him, I would definitely

01:40:10.560 --> 01:40:13.380
someone I always recommend. He does a great job.

01:40:13.460 --> 01:40:15.880
A good friend of mine, Alec Ogden, who's the

01:40:15.880 --> 01:40:18.840
chief of Aurora Fire Department in Colorado.

01:40:18.939 --> 01:40:22.079
And I've recommended him before. He just outstanding

01:40:22.079 --> 01:40:25.760
guy. Came from Henrico County, Virginia. Very.

01:40:27.400 --> 01:40:30.239
progressive chief. Beautiful. Well, I appreciate

01:40:30.239 --> 01:40:32.159
those suggestions. Thank you. All right. Well,

01:40:32.199 --> 01:40:34.140
the very last question before we make sure everyone

01:40:34.140 --> 01:40:37.079
knows where to find you, what do you do to decompress?

01:40:38.220 --> 01:40:41.260
I play the guitar. I started playing a couple

01:40:41.260 --> 01:40:44.479
of years ago. I'm not good, but I love music.

01:40:44.600 --> 01:40:47.060
So I have a guitar in my house. I pick it up

01:40:47.060 --> 01:40:50.000
every day. That's an acoustic guitar. I love

01:40:50.000 --> 01:40:53.000
playing. I tell my wife when I retire, I may

01:40:53.000 --> 01:40:55.600
grow out my hair and beard. Join a rock and roll

01:40:55.600 --> 01:40:57.899
band. I don't know. But if you heard me play,

01:40:58.000 --> 01:40:59.800
you'd probably say you're OK. You probably won't

01:40:59.800 --> 01:41:03.079
do that. So I like to play the guitar and I work

01:41:03.079 --> 01:41:06.300
out. I work out six days a week. I'm not one

01:41:06.300 --> 01:41:08.479
of those physical specimens, but I really enjoy

01:41:08.479 --> 01:41:11.060
my workout time. It's when I'm working out. I

01:41:11.060 --> 01:41:13.760
don't think anything else. And then obviously

01:41:13.760 --> 01:41:18.060
I've got family. i've got six uh five grand babies

01:41:18.060 --> 01:41:21.220
two more on the way so i really hope to be in

01:41:21.220 --> 01:41:23.640
that space a lot more pops and spend a lot more

01:41:23.640 --> 01:41:25.920
time in that area but you know those are three

01:41:25.920 --> 01:41:28.359
things the decompression obviously is the guitar

01:41:28.359 --> 01:41:31.319
working out but your family that connection piece

01:41:31.319 --> 01:41:34.640
really helps me feel grounded question for you

01:41:34.640 --> 01:41:36.939
because this is just about to happen to me for

01:41:36.939 --> 01:41:40.220
the very first time very last time as well I've

01:41:40.220 --> 01:41:42.539
talked about all these different layers when

01:41:42.539 --> 01:41:44.800
it comes to mental health and challenges, but

01:41:44.800 --> 01:41:48.640
one that I really didn't think about until my

01:41:48.640 --> 01:41:52.039
son basically became a senior was when you pour

01:41:52.039 --> 01:41:55.039
yourself into your children for 18 plus years,

01:41:55.119 --> 01:41:59.159
and then one day they walk out the door. It's

01:41:59.159 --> 01:42:03.880
tough. I mean, it's tough. I always say this,

01:42:03.880 --> 01:42:05.739
and this is the good thing. Your kids always

01:42:05.739 --> 01:42:10.159
grow up. They never leave. they're always going

01:42:10.159 --> 01:42:12.140
to be around. It's just different. It's just

01:42:12.140 --> 01:42:14.340
a different space. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm going

01:42:14.340 --> 01:42:15.880
to do a video on that because I think that's,

01:42:15.880 --> 01:42:17.300
you know, that's another layer of people are

01:42:17.300 --> 01:42:18.880
already starting to struggle a little bit and

01:42:18.880 --> 01:42:21.439
then they've got that. Yeah. All right. Well

01:42:21.439 --> 01:42:23.399
then for people listening, if they want to reach

01:42:23.399 --> 01:42:25.239
out to you, where are the best places to learn

01:42:25.239 --> 01:42:28.399
about you or do that on social media? I'm on

01:42:28.399 --> 01:42:30.659
LinkedIn. That's the only social media I have

01:42:30.659 --> 01:42:33.199
LinkedIn. You can reach out to me, Richard Kelly,

01:42:33.359 --> 01:42:37.810
and then you can email me. Okay. See. Rescue,

01:42:37.869 --> 01:42:40.430
the number eight at gmail .com. It's the easiest

01:42:40.430 --> 01:42:45.430
way. It's my personal. So it's OKCrescue8 at

01:42:45.430 --> 01:42:48.250
gmail .com. Brilliant. Well, Richard, I want

01:42:48.250 --> 01:42:50.069
to thank you so much. It's been such an amazing

01:42:50.069 --> 01:42:52.109
conversation. I mean, all the different areas

01:42:52.109 --> 01:42:54.609
that we've hit, thank you for your courageous

01:42:54.609 --> 01:42:57.350
vulnerability as far as some of the horrific

01:42:57.350 --> 01:42:59.149
things that you've had to see and do as well.

01:42:59.270 --> 01:43:02.090
But there's so much value to this. And talking

01:43:02.090 --> 01:43:05.310
to someone who's the kind of leader that I hope

01:43:05.310 --> 01:43:07.880
we'll see. in all the fire service, you know,

01:43:07.899 --> 01:43:10.539
really reflecting on the things that need to

01:43:10.539 --> 01:43:12.539
change and some of the solutions that you've

01:43:12.539 --> 01:43:14.260
been a part of when it comes to your own department.

01:43:14.659 --> 01:43:16.720
So I want to thank you so, so much for being

01:43:16.720 --> 01:43:18.640
so generous with your time and coming on the

01:43:18.640 --> 01:43:21.539
Behind the Shield podcast today. Thank you so

01:43:21.539 --> 01:43:23.319
much for having me. It's really been an honor.