WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr, yet

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another company that's doing great things for

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the first responder community. As a strength

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and conditioning coach myself who also trains

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tactical athletes, dissemination of wellness

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information is one of the biggest challenges.

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Now TeamBuildr is the premier strength and conditioning

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things is obviously it tracks. To me, it's imperative

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that we as a profession start tracking our people

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from day one and then over the full span of their

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career, therefore catching potential wellness

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issues and injuries before they happen. Now,

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if you want to try Team Builder, they are offering

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you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast,

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a free 14 -day trial to experience all of the

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features. And if you want to take a deeper dive

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into Team Builder, listen to episode 1032 with

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Melissa Mercado or go to teambuildr .com. And

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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you

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think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome

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to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,

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my name is James Gearing and this week it is

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my absolute honor to welcome on the show Canadian

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law enforcement veteran and the man behind setting

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my sights on stigma, Mark Bouchard. Now in this

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conversation, we discuss a host of topics from

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his journey into policing, tactical medicine,

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catharsis through writing, sleep, moral injury,

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and so much more. Now, before I get to this incredible

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conversation, as I say every week, please just

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take a moment. Go to whichever app you listen

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to this on. Subscribe to the show. Leave feedback

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and leave a rating. Every single five -star rating

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truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making

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it easier for others to find. And this is a free

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library of over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I

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ask in return is that you help share these incredible

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men and women's stories so I can get them to

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every single person on planet Earth who needs

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to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce

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to you... Marc Bouchard. Enjoy. Well, Mark, I

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want to start by saying two things. Firstly,

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thank you to our mutual friends at The Collective,

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Sean and Chance. And secondly, I want to welcome

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you onto the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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Well, thanks, James. It's a real honor to be

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here. And yeah, fortunate to have been on that

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podcast with you. So for any of your listeners,

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it's worth checking out. And yeah, thank you

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for having me. Honor to be here. So where on

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planet Earth are we finding you this morning?

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I live in the outskirts of Ottawa, which is the...

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the capital for Canada in Ontario. Brilliant.

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Well, I would love to start at the very beginning

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of your timeline and then we'll progress through

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to all things mental health and first responder.

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So tell me where you were born and tell me a

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little bit about your family dynamic, what your

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parents did, how many siblings. Sure. So I was

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born in a Vancouver suburb. Up in Canada, but

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it's on the far west coast for anyone who's not

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familiar. It's in a suburb called Delta. I'm

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the fourth child. My parents, they run an accounting

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company. My dad still does. He's about to turn

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78. Still just loves helping people save money

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on their taxes. Nothing gets him more excited

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than that. My mom worked there for a long time.

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My brother works there. I come from a whole family

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of accountants. I don't know how I managed to

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become a cop, but somehow I found quite a different

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profession. So yeah, I'm the fourth kid. I actually

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also have an adopted brother. Not in the same

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way a lot of people would. His mother died from

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cancer when we were fairly young and just was

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a bit of a lost kid wandering around the neighborhood.

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He would come to our house a lot. So yeah, he

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basically became my brother. He was the best

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man in our wedding. So I actually get a bit emotional

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about that. Oh, good. I mean, it's a beautiful

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story. So reverse engineering, what was it about?

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your parents and maybe even their upbringing

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that gave them the kind of uh compassion to bring

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in the child of someone who'd lost their mother

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yeah it's a great question i think my mother's

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mother my grandmother uh very much brought people

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in like that and it's actually um my uncle married

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my aunt and she was someone who they had brought

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in my mom's mom they lived in north vancouver

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uh so i think my mom came by that a bit naturally

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and she had been friend with friends with barb

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barb is duncan's mom who who died so um my brother

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my adopted brother duncan his mother uh passed

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away from cancer and his birthday my birthday

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and mother's day are all within a week so he

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kind of just kept coming around the house more

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and more and then eventually i started calling

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my brother and next thing you know we'd come

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out to everything like all our family photos

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and we'd go on family trips and he was coming

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to everything Um, and very, very fortunate. I

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think he was a bit of a lost kid for a little

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while, like struggled in high school. Um, and

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I think in a way it was, so we were kind of helping

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him at the time, but then I ended up going through

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my own hard time and he was one of the best supports,

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you know, and even, like I say, he was the best

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man at my wedding. Cause just developed this

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awesome, awesome relationship. It was almost

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like a little brother for me in a way, even though

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he's two years older and he's six foot six, he's

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kind of a big brother too, but, uh, yeah, pretty

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fortunate for that. And I think my parents just.

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are kind of those giving people who try and help

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in the community. And, you know, they're part

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of Rotary and part of like, just trying to find

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ways to contribute. And I think they saw, you

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know, just created a nice place and then where

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Duncan fell safe, just kept coming and then developed

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a great relationship from there that we're all

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fortunate for. I think just that whole philosophy

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is something that we need to re -find as a society.

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I think it was there for a long time, you know,

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tribally. And then even if you look at a lot

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of smaller communities, you know, villages and

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towns around the world where they say it takes

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a village, you know, it's not just one family

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left to fend for themselves. And if another family

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is doing better, well, you know, I earned this

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and, you know, screw you. And going back to this.

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As they say, you want to change the world, start

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a home, and then step outside your front door

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and reach out to your community. If we all did

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that, we would see such a global change as far

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as not only kindness and compassion, but also

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crime and addiction and all the other things.

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Yeah, it's connection. It's meaning. It's belonging.

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I think we don't really get taught those things

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growing up and as kids. We have this perception

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that we just need to make a lot of money and

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be successful and have status, and then we'll

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be happy. I wrote a bit about suicide in that

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chapter of my book, and I lost a loved one to

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suicide, which was my godfather, Bill. And Bill

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had millions of dollars, and Bill died from suicide.

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We don't talk about that, especially in relation

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to men. So I hear you. For me, like getting into

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law enforcement and then into like SWAT or emergency

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response work, we call it in Canada, that connection,

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that brotherhood, that bond, really it's the

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intensity of the experiences that you go through.

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And that's what love is, right? You build this

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really intense bond. And when you go through

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something like a war or these really intense

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things, you have that brotherhood. And there's

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guys where, you know, I worked with them and

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got super close and we might not talk for a year

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or two. But when you see them, when you talk

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to them, it's just like you haven't missed a

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beat. And that's what they say. Hey, this is

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just like seeing my best friends from high school,

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my best friends I grew up with. And I don't know

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about you, but is that what your experience has

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been like with fire as well? That same kind of

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tight knit brotherhood or I shouldn't say brotherhood,

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sisterhood too. But I mean, in earthwork, we

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have very few women. It's largely men. That's

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why I often would say brotherhood. But what's

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your experience been, James? Yeah, no, it has.

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I mean, you know, throughout my career, but especially

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Anaheim, California, that, that crew, you know,

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really was the most cohesive tight knit group

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in an extremely. In the kind of department that

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sets the bar extremely high. So even just making

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it through the year of probation was a crucible

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in itself. And then you start running these calls.

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And they went to a lot of stuff, a lot of horrible

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wrecks, a lot of fires. And there were times

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where, yeah, absolutely, it was very dangerous

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situations. And those same men, because my crew

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in that particular case were all men, 10 years

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later were my groomsmen at my wedding. And I'd

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moved 2 ,500 miles to the other side of the country,

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and they all flew over. So a hundred percent.

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I mean, if I pick up the phone now, just talk

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to my firefighter partner the other day. And

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it is, it's always just like, we've, we just

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spoke the day before. So, you know, I think that

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shared suffering and that community that we experienced

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in the first responder professions is something

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that I think the whole world would benefit from.

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Yeah. I often cite books cause they've helped

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me so much. There's a book called the. The Like

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Switch by Jack Schaefer. And he described something

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called the friendship formula. And there's four

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factors that build friendship. Proximity, frequency,

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intensity, and duration. And I think the huge

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one there is intensity. Because when you go through

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something super intense together. like things

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that involve life and death situations where

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people have your back. And for me growing up,

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that was sports. I played a lot of hockey and

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a lot of my best friends are people I grew up

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playing hockey with because they've had your

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back. They've been in fights with you. Like they

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literally helped save you when you were in a

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bad spot. And then seeing the evolution of that

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for me, when I got into police work, same thing,

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you go through really intense things and it's

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not always danger. Sometimes it's emotional pain.

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Sometimes it's the tragic sadness and suffering

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and death of innocent people or child victims.

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Like there can be totally other reasons where

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the intense experience comes. They aren't just

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danger. But then I transitioned into what we

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call in Canada, the emergency response team.

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I did about 10 years there, but it is our SWAT

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team up here. And same thing. Then you get such

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intense experiences and that just forms these

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bonds. Like I have so many, you know, what I

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call best friends for life. And I may not even

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talk to someone a year, but I call up tomorrow

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and they do anything for you, right? And that's,

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to me, that's what life's about. That's a meaningful

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life. It's a life of purpose, a life of service,

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a life of connection. And I feel very fortunate

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to have got those opportunities and to have learned

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that. I think that's one of the sad things about

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the way American sports has devolved. And I mean

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sports as in what people see on their actual

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screen. And I've had this conversation a lot

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coming from another country. When I first moved

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here, I kept meeting all these broken, you know,

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25, 30 year olds with these, I could have, would

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have, should have dreams. I call them my Uncle

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Rico's. And it's not to, you know, make fun of

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them. It's just, it's like, how did you go from

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such a high level of performance in high school

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and college? to now be broken and overweight

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and kind of beat down. And it's because the focus

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was on winning. And yes, of course, when you

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are in, for example, I've always been a martial

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artist. I don't want to go in there and just

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drop my hands and get my head knocked off. I

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want to win. But it's the crucible that you go

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through with your team or with your martial arts

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team that you fight side by side with, whatever

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it is. That's actually where the value is. And

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the laughing and the joking. And when you fall

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over, I mean, all the things together. And we've

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kind of discarded that and say, oh, no, no, no.

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The only thing that matters is if you stand on

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the podium. That's it. And I could not disagree

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more. Of course, trying to win is the biggest

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element. But how many teams have won every NHL

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Stanley Cup? Every Super Bowl, of course, only

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one team and you're discrediting all the hard

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work and all the support staff and everything

00:12:44.190 --> 00:12:47.129
else that goes into that. So the huge takeaway

00:12:47.129 --> 00:12:49.629
from sports is, you know, humility, teamwork,

00:12:49.909 --> 00:12:52.710
community, shared suffering. It's not whether

00:12:52.710 --> 00:12:57.110
you got a gold circle on a ribbon. Yeah, I totally

00:12:57.110 --> 00:12:59.590
agree with you. I often think of like outcome

00:12:59.590 --> 00:13:01.970
based decision making where it's just like, well,

00:13:02.049 --> 00:13:04.269
that outcome happened. We won or we didn't win.

00:13:04.490 --> 00:13:08.029
Therefore, I'm happy or unhappy. I actually,

00:13:08.090 --> 00:13:09.789
I played on some basically like championship

00:13:09.789 --> 00:13:11.929
teams. So we won provincials for hockey three

00:13:11.929 --> 00:13:15.169
times, won Westerns. And one year we went right

00:13:15.169 --> 00:13:18.009
to the overtime of the gold medal game and we

00:13:18.009 --> 00:13:20.870
lost. I couldn't stop crying. I was devastated.

00:13:20.909 --> 00:13:23.549
It was my last year, 20 years old. We'd won it

00:13:23.549 --> 00:13:26.330
in the past and we didn't win it that time. And

00:13:26.330 --> 00:13:29.070
after being upset that day, I've never been upset

00:13:29.070 --> 00:13:31.960
about it again. Because we got every game we

00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:33.759
could have got. We got this amazing experience

00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:36.019
together. That's what it was really about, was

00:13:36.019 --> 00:13:37.539
the bond and the brotherhood and the friends

00:13:37.539 --> 00:13:39.799
for life that it helped create. It wasn't just

00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:42.340
about the championship kind of represents the

00:13:42.340 --> 00:13:46.000
experience, not so much defines you. And back

00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:48.299
to kind of how that evolved into my police time.

00:13:48.980 --> 00:13:51.399
I just saw my job like I was excited every day

00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:53.539
to try and get better. Like I felt like I owed

00:13:53.539 --> 00:13:56.179
that to both the people we serve, but also really

00:13:56.179 --> 00:13:58.629
to those people around me. because you go through

00:13:58.629 --> 00:14:01.049
these intense things you know things like yeah

00:14:01.049 --> 00:14:03.210
there's lots of just regular days where nothing

00:14:03.210 --> 00:14:05.330
crazy happens but when something's going to happen

00:14:05.330 --> 00:14:07.870
it's either you prepared for it and you're ready

00:14:07.870 --> 00:14:09.269
and you can actually do what you need to do or

00:14:09.269 --> 00:14:11.509
you didn't and that's one thing i really value

00:14:11.509 --> 00:14:13.870
of what you bring james is you set that high

00:14:13.870 --> 00:14:16.669
bar you basically say hey we should we should

00:14:16.669 --> 00:14:19.330
be like athletes we should take this serious

00:14:19.330 --> 00:14:22.029
we should hold ourselves accountable not just

00:14:22.029 --> 00:14:24.350
take it easy because we can today because nothing's

00:14:24.350 --> 00:14:26.220
coming in Well, that means get training, get

00:14:26.220 --> 00:14:28.679
physical, like do all those things ahead of time.

00:14:28.860 --> 00:14:31.460
You know, it's like the will to win and the will

00:14:31.460 --> 00:14:33.940
to prepare to win, right? Everyone wants to win

00:14:33.940 --> 00:14:35.600
when it's game day. Everyone wants to win when

00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:38.399
that moment comes. The question is, did you actually

00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:40.460
prepare for it so that you're ready for that

00:14:40.460 --> 00:14:43.720
moment and you can be successful? Yeah, absolutely.

00:14:44.340 --> 00:14:46.480
Well, you mentioned about being the son of two

00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:49.559
accountants. So as you were progressing through

00:14:49.559 --> 00:14:52.059
the school years, were you dreaming of law enforcement

00:14:52.059 --> 00:14:55.129
or was there something else in your mind? No,

00:14:55.250 --> 00:14:57.429
I just want to be a hockey player. I'll be honest

00:14:57.429 --> 00:15:00.129
with you. You know, I had dreams of the NHL.

00:15:00.129 --> 00:15:01.809
I'm only 5 '10", so that was probably never going

00:15:01.809 --> 00:15:06.190
to happen. And my mom worked there, but she was

00:15:06.190 --> 00:15:07.710
more like the receptionist, so she wasn't like

00:15:07.710 --> 00:15:11.750
a full -blown like CA, CPA accountant. No, and

00:15:11.750 --> 00:15:13.210
you know what I always said when people would

00:15:13.210 --> 00:15:14.470
ask me, do you want to be an accountant like

00:15:14.470 --> 00:15:17.169
your dad? I would say no, I don't want to work

00:15:17.169 --> 00:15:19.710
that much. And not to sound weird about it, but

00:15:19.710 --> 00:15:22.389
like I watched my dad put in 100 -hour work weeks.

00:15:22.809 --> 00:15:25.049
All the time. And it's not that, you know, there's

00:15:25.049 --> 00:15:26.409
lots of accountants who don't, right? That's

00:15:26.409 --> 00:15:28.870
fair. But he ran his own business. So I think

00:15:28.870 --> 00:15:31.090
part of that was actually the entrepreneur side.

00:15:31.549 --> 00:15:33.549
You know, they say entrepreneurs are the only

00:15:33.549 --> 00:15:35.149
people working 80 hours a week, so they don't

00:15:35.149 --> 00:15:37.809
have to work 40. So he, you know, if you're not

00:15:37.809 --> 00:15:39.330
putting in the work, the income's not coming

00:15:39.330 --> 00:15:41.629
in. And he has a lot of people that work there,

00:15:41.690 --> 00:15:44.049
so they all get paid before you do. So there's

00:15:44.049 --> 00:15:45.950
times when there's not a whole lot left, right?

00:15:46.009 --> 00:15:49.100
There's good times and hard times. So no, I just

00:15:49.100 --> 00:15:50.620
had this mindset. I didn't want to work that

00:15:50.620 --> 00:15:54.220
much. And what I had seen was the impact of crime.

00:15:54.539 --> 00:15:56.659
So my dad's business has been broken into more

00:15:56.659 --> 00:15:59.320
times than I can count. And they'd always find

00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:00.980
a new way. They'd cut a hole from the neighboring

00:16:00.980 --> 00:16:02.500
business. They'd come in through the ceiling.

00:16:02.659 --> 00:16:04.279
They drove a truck through the front of the business.

00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:07.179
They did tens of thousands of dollars of damage

00:16:07.179 --> 00:16:09.899
and they stole two flat screen monitors. They'd

00:16:09.899 --> 00:16:12.299
steal vehicles from the parking lot. And it was

00:16:12.299 --> 00:16:16.570
so angering for me. very upsetting to the point

00:16:16.570 --> 00:16:18.350
my parents would be sleeping in the office sometimes

00:16:18.350 --> 00:16:20.509
to try and prevent people from breaking in and

00:16:20.509 --> 00:16:22.549
sealing things. And then really you just want

00:16:22.549 --> 00:16:24.409
to do something about it. And then I went to

00:16:24.409 --> 00:16:26.889
university. I got a poli sci degree. And then

00:16:26.889 --> 00:16:28.649
you find out no one really wants to pay you to

00:16:28.649 --> 00:16:31.029
political science, certainly not pay you well.

00:16:31.429 --> 00:16:33.570
And then you look around at what to do. And I

00:16:33.570 --> 00:16:35.470
liked the idea of being physical and doing something

00:16:35.470 --> 00:16:37.870
different every day and just trying to find a

00:16:37.870 --> 00:16:39.629
way to help people. And that's, I think, a common

00:16:39.629 --> 00:16:42.309
theme of what I've seen even as a recruiter within

00:16:42.309 --> 00:16:43.990
policing. I've sat in on recruiting interviews.

00:16:44.350 --> 00:16:46.269
And so often everyone comes in. Why do you want

00:16:46.269 --> 00:16:48.269
to be a cop? I want to help people. And I think

00:16:48.269 --> 00:16:50.230
sometimes I can get a little bit lost. But that

00:16:50.230 --> 00:16:53.090
was my way of trying to find a way to help. And

00:16:53.090 --> 00:16:54.730
then after doing it, what I learned is those

00:16:54.730 --> 00:16:57.669
doing the job needed a lot of help. And I say

00:16:57.669 --> 00:17:00.289
that because I lived it, like many of us. And

00:17:00.289 --> 00:17:01.830
then as I healed and started getting better,

00:17:01.909 --> 00:17:03.659
I looked around at all my buddies. And I'm like,

00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:05.680
man, there's so many of us really suffering.

00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:08.119
And then that became the new mission is how do

00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:11.000
you help the helpers? It's funny. I remember

00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:13.859
when I was testing to be a firefighter, we're

00:17:13.859 --> 00:17:19.119
talking 2004. I was very competitive back then.

00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:21.000
I've talked about this a lot. What you could

00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:22.779
learn about the profession on the internet was

00:17:22.779 --> 00:17:25.400
very, very limited. And there was one site, I

00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:27.200
think it was called the Golden Nuggets, where

00:17:27.200 --> 00:17:29.559
it would kind of teach you how to ace your interview,

00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:32.900
air quotes. And they said, you know, if you get

00:17:32.900 --> 00:17:34.660
asked, you know, why do you want to be a firefighter?

00:17:34.700 --> 00:17:37.319
Don't say, I want to help people. And it's funny

00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:39.000
because when I reflect back now, that's exactly

00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:41.559
why. I don't need to pull some story because

00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:43.599
I was actually ironically in a fire when I was

00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:45.240
four. So I could have pulled that ever since

00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:48.500
then. I was, you know, practicing to be a firefighter.

00:17:48.500 --> 00:17:50.740
That's bullshit. I just want to help people.

00:17:51.220 --> 00:17:53.660
I don't want people to feel pain. I don't want

00:17:53.660 --> 00:17:56.180
people to die when it was preventable. The end,

00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:58.880
period. I shouldn't have to zhuzh that up for

00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:01.279
some interview. And so it was almost discouraged

00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:04.380
to use that as a response. And it's a shame because,

00:18:04.420 --> 00:18:07.079
as you said, ultimately, most of us get into

00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:10.000
this job simply because they want to make the

00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:13.380
world a little bit better. Yeah, and I think

00:18:13.380 --> 00:18:15.619
that's important for us to help educate the public

00:18:15.619 --> 00:18:18.799
on. Because I even say specifically for policing,

00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:21.259
I think policing... has a little more challenges

00:18:21.259 --> 00:18:24.140
with public perception. I mean, one of the topics

00:18:24.140 --> 00:18:26.460
I write about and I even do my presentations

00:18:26.460 --> 00:18:28.940
about is lethal force psychology. Because it's

00:18:28.940 --> 00:18:30.859
really hard to wrap our heads around how we're

00:18:30.859 --> 00:18:33.359
this kind, giving person. We sign up to help

00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:35.180
people. We want to be a cop. And that's what

00:18:35.180 --> 00:18:37.279
we see at a community event. And then you end

00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:40.000
up in this no -win situation where your life's

00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:42.200
in danger and someone else's life's in danger

00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:44.960
and you're even forced to use lethal force. And

00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:46.859
then you're left with this pain because of how...

00:18:47.099 --> 00:18:49.920
big our resistance is to doing it and then you're

00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:52.559
labeled in the media sometimes as you know even

00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:54.619
like you would have seen in my book but one of

00:18:54.619 --> 00:18:56.200
my best friends was charged with murder after

00:18:56.200 --> 00:18:58.539
shooting a hostage taker like it never should

00:18:58.539 --> 00:19:01.259
have happened but society is so much like we're

00:19:01.259 --> 00:19:03.940
disconnected from our food source from our fitness

00:19:03.940 --> 00:19:05.940
and our health in some ways we're disconnected

00:19:05.940 --> 00:19:08.519
from our protection we think that oh violence

00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:11.759
is bad violence is bad but if you're doing violence

00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:14.619
to keep innocent people safe then actually maybe

00:19:14.619 --> 00:19:16.299
it's this weird way that it's actually a good

00:19:16.299 --> 00:19:19.960
thing today. You're being a protector, a guardian.

00:19:20.019 --> 00:19:25.240
You're not using violence for a bad way. Absolutely.

00:19:25.460 --> 00:19:28.079
Yeah, it's funny because depending on which news

00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:31.259
station you watch, either A, police are all racist

00:19:31.259 --> 00:19:32.799
and they're just waiting for the opportunity

00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:36.039
to kill someone of color, or every single police

00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:39.000
shooting is justified. And obviously the truth

00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:41.400
is in the middle. Of course, there are some bad

00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:43.960
apples in the profession, but most people, I

00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:46.359
don't think people understand the ripple effect

00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:48.960
of being an officer involved shooting on the

00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:51.240
officer themselves. Because they did not wake

00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:53.680
up that morning saying, oh, I hope I shoot someone

00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:57.789
today. Yeah, there's a... There's a book called

00:19:57.789 --> 00:19:59.769
Shots Fired by Chuck Ryland. There's actually

00:19:59.769 --> 00:20:01.430
a bunch of great books on lethal force psychology.

00:20:01.890 --> 00:20:04.089
But in that one specifically, they follow, I

00:20:04.089 --> 00:20:06.130
think it's about 10 or 12 officers after their

00:20:06.130 --> 00:20:07.750
shooting. So they chronicle a little bit of the

00:20:07.750 --> 00:20:10.650
experience of the officer of the event, but largely

00:20:10.650 --> 00:20:13.369
it follows them after. And basically all their

00:20:13.369 --> 00:20:15.789
lives fall apart. Many of them, several of them

00:20:15.789 --> 00:20:18.250
end up suicidal. They're sitting there contemplating

00:20:18.250 --> 00:20:21.230
killing themselves and largely feel super misunderstood,

00:20:21.450 --> 00:20:24.930
both in the media, by their loved ones, and just

00:20:24.930 --> 00:20:27.950
how... emotionally painful it can be. And I know

00:20:27.950 --> 00:20:30.910
officers who've been through shootings and sometimes

00:20:30.910 --> 00:20:33.109
they're okay. And sometimes, you know, for whatever

00:20:33.109 --> 00:20:35.710
reason doesn't impact them in that way. But for

00:20:35.710 --> 00:20:37.710
many, I've talked to some who have hit the point

00:20:37.710 --> 00:20:40.769
of, you know, suicidal ideation and just really

00:20:40.769 --> 00:20:43.390
life falling apart for them. And that's where

00:20:43.390 --> 00:20:47.329
as a profession, I think we in policing, much

00:20:47.329 --> 00:20:49.029
like you're trying to change fire profession

00:20:49.029 --> 00:20:51.869
and fire culture, we need to change our culture

00:20:51.869 --> 00:20:54.250
to start teaching this early. Don't wait until

00:20:54.250 --> 00:20:56.809
someone's already injured and off work and sending

00:20:56.809 --> 00:20:58.750
them to rehab. Like, yes, let's have those supports

00:20:58.750 --> 00:21:00.990
when we need them. But what if we actually taught

00:21:00.990 --> 00:21:02.869
you this at the start of your career? Much like

00:21:02.869 --> 00:21:05.410
you talk so much about sleep and wellness and

00:21:05.410 --> 00:21:07.230
all kinds of these good things that if we can

00:21:07.230 --> 00:21:10.289
teach people, we can prevent things from getting

00:21:10.289 --> 00:21:13.049
so bad 10 years later by having you have these

00:21:13.049 --> 00:21:16.529
healthy thoughts, habits, etc. early on. That's

00:21:16.529 --> 00:21:18.089
where we need to get within the policing profession.

00:21:18.450 --> 00:21:20.630
There's a ton of great books out there. Part

00:21:20.630 --> 00:21:22.109
of why I've started doing little book summaries

00:21:22.109 --> 00:21:24.410
on my website and on a YouTube channel is just

00:21:24.410 --> 00:21:26.509
trying to help share that knowledge within the

00:21:26.509 --> 00:21:29.809
profession. My hope is that one day we'll actually

00:21:29.809 --> 00:21:31.869
teach a bunch of those. Say a great book like

00:21:31.869 --> 00:21:34.549
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk.

00:21:34.650 --> 00:21:37.029
It's a fantastic book on trauma. For any of those

00:21:37.029 --> 00:21:39.329
in trauma -exposed professions like first responders,

00:21:39.690 --> 00:21:42.930
you need to be able to learn how to... heal yourself

00:21:42.930 --> 00:21:44.930
how to take care of yourself after these traumatic

00:21:44.930 --> 00:21:47.250
events and what if we taught it to you right

00:21:47.250 --> 00:21:49.269
at the start of your career in the course curriculum

00:21:49.269 --> 00:21:51.650
you know even sleep science like a book like

00:21:51.650 --> 00:21:55.109
why we sleep uh matthew walker fantastic book

00:21:55.109 --> 00:21:57.269
that will really help you so if those are issues

00:21:57.269 --> 00:21:58.509
someone out there that's listening to this is

00:21:58.509 --> 00:22:00.529
struggling with a little bit grab those books

00:22:00.529 --> 00:22:04.430
and they'll help you before we go into your journey

00:22:04.430 --> 00:22:06.349
in law enforcement and start unpacking all these

00:22:06.349 --> 00:22:09.450
elements that we just discussed when you reflect

00:22:09.450 --> 00:22:12.880
back now What were the contributing factors to

00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:16.319
so much crime in the neighborhood that you grew

00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:18.740
up in, in the business that your dad was trying

00:22:18.740 --> 00:22:24.200
to protect? Wow, that's a big question. I think

00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:27.559
the drug trade is a central aspect, right? So,

00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:30.059
I mean, just in my own experience since then,

00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:32.799
like your average person is not going out doing

00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:35.400
crime. Random people are not just going down

00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:37.079
the street, breaking into cars, breaking into

00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:41.859
businesses. And from my experience, Pretty much

00:22:41.859 --> 00:22:44.819
universally, those who are, are addicted to drugs.

00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:46.880
They're caught up in a cycle within the drug

00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:49.680
trade where they owe a lot of money and now they

00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:51.980
need to do crime to be able to get that money,

00:22:52.099 --> 00:22:54.619
but they don't have it. So what do they do? They

00:22:54.619 --> 00:22:57.259
steal things from your car, your garage, they

00:22:57.259 --> 00:22:59.380
break into your business, and that's how they

00:22:59.380 --> 00:23:01.880
get their money. Now, to take a step back even

00:23:01.880 --> 00:23:04.359
further in the cycle, why are they doing all

00:23:04.359 --> 00:23:07.099
those drugs? And often I would say there's a

00:23:07.099 --> 00:23:09.589
massive issue around pain. Many of them, it's

00:23:09.589 --> 00:23:12.789
neglect, it's childhood abuse, it's sexual abuse.

00:23:13.130 --> 00:23:16.009
When you really sit down and listen to people

00:23:16.009 --> 00:23:19.630
who are addicted to drugs, there's a story behind

00:23:19.630 --> 00:23:22.049
what got them there. And that's one thing I'll

00:23:22.049 --> 00:23:24.569
say from reading your book. I really sensed a

00:23:24.569 --> 00:23:27.549
lot of compassion and empathy. It's how do we

00:23:27.549 --> 00:23:29.930
relate to this person? How do we actually feel

00:23:29.930 --> 00:23:32.230
a little piece of their pain? And then connect

00:23:32.230 --> 00:23:34.329
with them to try and help them. And that's what

00:23:34.329 --> 00:23:36.410
I would try and do. Even like I would arrest

00:23:36.410 --> 00:23:39.470
a drunk driver. Now, alcohol, drugs, similar,

00:23:39.670 --> 00:23:42.130
slightly different. But many of them, it's just

00:23:42.130 --> 00:23:44.589
extreme pain. They've lost a parent. They've

00:23:44.589 --> 00:23:47.289
lost a child. And they don't know how to cope.

00:23:47.410 --> 00:23:50.369
And especially as men, then they have this shame

00:23:50.369 --> 00:23:52.450
around, I don't know what's wrong with me. I

00:23:52.450 --> 00:23:54.470
don't know why I'm crying. They'll be like, I

00:23:54.470 --> 00:23:55.630
don't know why I'm being such a little bitch.

00:23:56.009 --> 00:23:57.970
And I'm like, you're not. You're being human.

00:23:58.750 --> 00:24:00.529
And I would literally just try and sit down with

00:24:00.529 --> 00:24:02.890
them and be that space and also say like, hey,

00:24:02.910 --> 00:24:05.230
man, what's going to happen is you keep doing

00:24:05.230 --> 00:24:06.269
this. You're going to end up killing someone

00:24:06.269 --> 00:24:08.430
else's kid. I don't want you to have to live

00:24:08.430 --> 00:24:10.250
with that. And I don't want to be my kid or your

00:24:10.250 --> 00:24:12.230
kid or anyone else's kid. Like, let's try and

00:24:12.230 --> 00:24:14.349
get you some help. And there were times people

00:24:14.349 --> 00:24:16.509
would thank me. Like, literally, you arrest them

00:24:16.509 --> 00:24:18.329
for drunk driving. And at the end of the day,

00:24:18.349 --> 00:24:20.069
they're thanking you. And that's the same thing

00:24:20.069 --> 00:24:22.230
I would try and do when I would arrest someone

00:24:22.230 --> 00:24:24.250
for property crime and they're drug addicted.

00:24:24.690 --> 00:24:27.049
I would just say, hey, man. I'd much rather be

00:24:27.049 --> 00:24:29.170
trying to put my time into getting you help than

00:24:29.170 --> 00:24:31.869
just throwing you in jail. At the end of the

00:24:31.869 --> 00:24:34.309
day, until we can fix the issue of the drugs,

00:24:34.430 --> 00:24:36.369
you're likely not getting away from this lifestyle

00:24:36.369 --> 00:24:39.109
of crime. For many of them, it's very hard. I

00:24:39.109 --> 00:24:40.769
would say, hey, it might take you seven attempts

00:24:40.769 --> 00:24:43.049
of going to rehab. It might take you 12. That's

00:24:43.049 --> 00:24:44.410
okay. Let's start with number one right now.

00:24:44.789 --> 00:24:47.190
Let's start you on a path towards better, and

00:24:47.190 --> 00:24:49.710
let's look at long -term solutions of the problem,

00:24:49.869 --> 00:24:52.109
not just trying to deal with this today and just

00:24:52.109 --> 00:24:55.349
blaming you like you're the only source of the

00:24:55.349 --> 00:24:58.690
issue here. This is always an interesting question

00:24:58.690 --> 00:25:00.809
to ask anyone in law enforcement because they

00:25:00.809 --> 00:25:05.630
were told to enforce drug prohibition laws. But

00:25:05.630 --> 00:25:07.430
a quick backstory, I think I've talked about

00:25:07.430 --> 00:25:10.529
this for a little while now. When I started my

00:25:10.529 --> 00:25:12.730
podcast, my mom had actually said, hey, did you

00:25:12.730 --> 00:25:14.930
know what they did about drug prohibition here

00:25:14.930 --> 00:25:16.869
in Portugal? Because she moved to Portugal about

00:25:16.869 --> 00:25:21.990
25 years ago now. And she goes, yeah, they basically

00:25:21.990 --> 00:25:25.329
had a national vote. It was spearheaded by this

00:25:25.329 --> 00:25:28.130
one doctor. And they said, look, we've tried

00:25:28.130 --> 00:25:30.690
this whole arrest the addicts model from America.

00:25:30.789 --> 00:25:33.130
It doesn't seem to be working. They had this

00:25:33.130 --> 00:25:36.250
massive epidemic of addiction after one of the

00:25:36.250 --> 00:25:40.269
wars in a Portuguese colony in Africa. And the

00:25:40.269 --> 00:25:42.650
soldiers came back addicted to opiates and it

00:25:42.650 --> 00:25:45.460
kind of spread through the country. and so they

00:25:45.460 --> 00:25:47.000
were like look we want to try something different

00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:48.799
and portugal is a really interesting country

00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:51.200
because it's very small it's kind of almost looked

00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:54.539
down on by some of the the more well -known uh

00:25:54.539 --> 00:25:58.079
mediterranean countries if you like but um at

00:25:58.079 --> 00:26:00.140
their core they're actually very progressive

00:26:00.140 --> 00:26:02.619
you know or or if you want to look at a different

00:26:02.619 --> 00:26:06.039
way they've stayed attached to more traditional

00:26:06.039 --> 00:26:09.740
values you know more tribal values and so the

00:26:09.740 --> 00:26:13.119
country voted yes and what they did is they poured

00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:17.480
all their resources into mental health counseling,

00:26:17.660 --> 00:26:19.579
the creation of mental health counseling, addiction

00:26:19.579 --> 00:26:23.500
counseling, job creation, housing, and it was

00:26:23.500 --> 00:26:25.500
fully funded. So not this piecemeal where we

00:26:25.500 --> 00:26:28.140
see in the US or in Canada, oh, we just decriminalize,

00:26:28.140 --> 00:26:30.200
but that was it. We just don't arrest them now.

00:26:30.259 --> 00:26:33.420
We didn't give them any resources. And Portugal

00:26:33.420 --> 00:26:35.619
saw such a success. They went from the highest

00:26:35.619 --> 00:26:37.960
addiction rate to the lowest in less than 10

00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:40.779
years. And what that did for law enforcement

00:26:40.779 --> 00:26:43.119
then was, of course, it reduced crime, but then

00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:44.980
it allowed all the resources that they had to

00:26:44.980 --> 00:26:47.420
go after the dealers and the smugglers. And the

00:26:47.420 --> 00:26:49.519
court system was freed up so they could process

00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:51.660
those people fast and get them behind bars if

00:26:51.660 --> 00:26:55.259
needed. So to me, and I sat down with his name,

00:26:55.299 --> 00:26:57.420
Zhao Gulau, with that doctor that spearheaded

00:26:57.420 --> 00:26:59.619
it. I sat down in Lisbon a few years ago, and

00:26:59.619 --> 00:27:01.720
then we just did one about six months ago again.

00:27:02.619 --> 00:27:06.319
And to me, that is the solution. You know, we

00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:09.079
have to stop. arresting addicts like you said

00:27:09.079 --> 00:27:12.180
people that are just drowning in pain it's totally

00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:15.079
socially acceptable to down a bottle of scotch

00:27:15.079 --> 00:27:17.519
but god forbid you have you know an illicit drug

00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:21.740
then you're a scumbag according to our laws so

00:27:21.740 --> 00:27:24.779
with all that monologue aside i'm not trying

00:27:24.779 --> 00:27:27.700
to load the question your response what is your

00:27:27.700 --> 00:27:31.799
um philosophy on the war on drugs as we've known

00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:34.799
it for the last few decades and any proactive

00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:40.490
solutions that can change this Well, let me start

00:27:40.490 --> 00:27:43.130
with an analogy. Just think about if you could

00:27:43.130 --> 00:27:46.890
make a place where you had full control of everything.

00:27:47.289 --> 00:27:50.910
You build giant walls. You put up fencing. Control

00:27:50.910 --> 00:27:53.869
who comes in and out. You search everybody. And

00:27:53.869 --> 00:27:55.849
now you still can't keep drugs out of there.

00:27:56.369 --> 00:27:58.950
Right? Let's be honest. It's jail. And people

00:27:58.950 --> 00:28:01.029
can still get drugs in and out and use drugs

00:28:01.029 --> 00:28:04.470
in there. So we're kidding ourselves if we think

00:28:04.470 --> 00:28:08.119
we're heading to a drug -free society. And we

00:28:08.119 --> 00:28:09.660
do need to relook at some of it, but it needs

00:28:09.660 --> 00:28:11.559
to be done in a smart way. And I will say in

00:28:11.559 --> 00:28:14.359
Canada, I think we've gone a little bit too much

00:28:14.359 --> 00:28:19.099
towards just, okay, decriminalize, you know,

00:28:19.099 --> 00:28:21.420
legalize all that kind of stuff without what

00:28:21.420 --> 00:28:25.099
you said about the supports. Like, because it's

00:28:25.099 --> 00:28:28.319
really sad to see people addicted to drugs where

00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:29.400
it's just, yeah, we'll give you all the free

00:28:29.400 --> 00:28:31.650
drugs you want. And we have stuff around giving

00:28:31.650 --> 00:28:34.589
out, you know, free morphine. And then it just

00:28:34.589 --> 00:28:36.650
makes its way back onto the market being sold

00:28:36.650 --> 00:28:40.329
by drug dealers. I know anecdotal examples of

00:28:40.329 --> 00:28:42.369
people telling me about they get their drugs

00:28:42.369 --> 00:28:44.529
from their doctor and then they go and sell them

00:28:44.529 --> 00:28:46.390
to their drug dealer because they want the fentanyl.

00:28:46.410 --> 00:28:48.490
They want the higher drug that we're trying to

00:28:48.490 --> 00:28:51.990
keep them from that is more deadly. But it's

00:28:51.990 --> 00:28:53.910
also informed from those anecdotal experiences

00:28:53.910 --> 00:28:56.450
of speaking to people addicted to drugs. And

00:28:56.450 --> 00:28:58.269
I will say, like, we end up getting these cards.

00:28:58.369 --> 00:29:00.759
We're supposed to hang a handout. to people addicted

00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:03.960
to drugs about destigmatizing drug use. And I

00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:05.700
remember as I started trying to do it and people

00:29:05.700 --> 00:29:07.759
who are addicted to drugs would say to me, yeah,

00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:10.059
this isn't a good plan. And I'm like, when the

00:29:10.059 --> 00:29:13.059
drug addict and the cop both think it's a bad

00:29:13.059 --> 00:29:15.079
plan, it's probably not going to work very well.

00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:17.720
And it's not that we want to destigmatize drug

00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:22.240
use. We want to increase their access to help.

00:29:22.619 --> 00:29:24.680
right to have the supports there that they can

00:29:24.680 --> 00:29:28.299
go take and it's would we rather pay for you

00:29:28.299 --> 00:29:30.259
know mental health treatment and housing and

00:29:30.259 --> 00:29:31.400
all those kind of things that are going to come

00:29:31.400 --> 00:29:33.819
as costs and upfront costs would you rather pay

00:29:33.819 --> 00:29:36.220
the long -term cost of having your business broken

00:29:36.220 --> 00:29:38.660
into again and your things stolen out of your

00:29:38.660 --> 00:29:40.319
garage and all those kind of problems that are

00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:43.160
going to come with it so i'm like you like i

00:29:43.160 --> 00:29:46.059
believe in a society where We take care of each

00:29:46.059 --> 00:29:48.180
other. And some people might call that socialism.

00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:50.279
I think there's this balance between capitalism

00:29:50.279 --> 00:29:53.640
and socialism where it's not meant to just be

00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:57.019
me out for me. It's meant to be that I have responsibility

00:29:57.019 --> 00:30:00.099
to my community and to take care of others. And

00:30:00.099 --> 00:30:04.019
I think there is no easy answer, but I do believe

00:30:04.019 --> 00:30:07.700
in funding some of those kind of holistic approaches

00:30:07.700 --> 00:30:11.200
of how we can help people. And I will say there's

00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:13.460
also some people that... probably never able

00:30:13.460 --> 00:30:15.660
to get off. Like even just from talking to them,

00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:18.319
they can't function in life and they've probably

00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:21.200
done 20 to 30 years worth of damage to their

00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:24.480
brain. Like they may never be able to go back

00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:26.380
to just a normal functioning member of society.

00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:28.940
So the plan needs to include people like that,

00:30:28.980 --> 00:30:31.420
that are going to struggle to function on their

00:30:31.420 --> 00:30:33.299
own, no matter what. And again, there's no easy

00:30:33.299 --> 00:30:36.480
answer to these things, but that view from the

00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:38.920
inside, which, you know, I think you've had some

00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:41.539
from your fire experience as well. It's a different

00:30:41.539 --> 00:30:44.369
picture than just blaming someone and we're not

00:30:44.369 --> 00:30:46.470
trying to make excuses for any kind of bad behavior

00:30:46.470 --> 00:30:49.670
happening but it's let's look at systemic level

00:30:49.670 --> 00:30:53.990
solutions of how do we make this better i forget

00:30:53.990 --> 00:30:59.329
what the current prison um rate is, but I know

00:30:59.329 --> 00:31:01.670
in the seventies, I think it was a few hundred

00:31:01.670 --> 00:31:04.410
thousand and now we're in several million. And

00:31:04.410 --> 00:31:06.470
America, we're talking about the US, America

00:31:06.470 --> 00:31:09.190
makes up 4 % of the world's population and has

00:31:09.190 --> 00:31:12.529
almost 25 % of the world's incarcerated population.

00:31:13.250 --> 00:31:16.430
So again, like if we're just crunching numbers,

00:31:16.490 --> 00:31:20.029
if that worked. then there would be a relationship

00:31:20.029 --> 00:31:23.250
between prohibition and incarcerated people.

00:31:23.470 --> 00:31:26.089
Because as you said, a lot of people that are

00:31:26.089 --> 00:31:28.470
behind bars are related to, in some way, shape

00:31:28.470 --> 00:31:32.230
or form, some sort of drug. And then even we

00:31:32.230 --> 00:31:34.849
have this Doge thing going on at the moment where

00:31:34.849 --> 00:31:37.730
supposedly they're analyzing all the wastage

00:31:37.730 --> 00:31:41.390
in government. We have a lot of prisons that

00:31:41.390 --> 00:31:43.849
make a lot of money by having prisoners. Some

00:31:43.849 --> 00:31:46.460
of them are private prisons. So if you're going

00:31:46.460 --> 00:31:48.900
to look at wastage, then there is no greater

00:31:48.900 --> 00:31:51.440
wastage than taking someone who potentially could

00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:55.759
pay tax and instead make the rest of the nation

00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:58.519
pay for them to be behind bars for 10, 20, 30

00:31:58.519 --> 00:32:01.660
years. So even from a fiscal point of view, it

00:32:01.660 --> 00:32:03.880
benefits the nation when you allow someone to

00:32:03.880 --> 00:32:05.579
heal. Like you said, not everyone will be able

00:32:05.579 --> 00:32:09.000
to do it, but a majority get them rehabilitated,

00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:11.799
get them back to work, and now they're taxpaying

00:32:11.799 --> 00:32:16.099
citizens. No matter how you look at it, every

00:32:16.099 --> 00:32:19.940
single angle, changing the way we do it has to

00:32:19.940 --> 00:32:23.559
be front and center. And to have this, again,

00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:25.220
with the stigma too, it was interesting with

00:32:25.220 --> 00:32:27.960
Portugal, when they decriminalized it and they

00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:30.920
gave all these support mechanisms, so they showed

00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:32.920
their people, no, we actually want you to get

00:32:32.920 --> 00:32:36.460
better. The addict now wasn't afraid of being

00:32:36.460 --> 00:32:39.420
arrested. So then they were able to ask for help.

00:32:39.930 --> 00:32:41.730
And then they were able to get help. And then

00:32:41.730 --> 00:32:43.490
there was job creation and housing. Now they're

00:32:43.490 --> 00:32:46.789
truly put back on their feet again. And everyone

00:32:46.789 --> 00:32:50.710
listening now is a perfect example. I'm sorry,

00:32:50.769 --> 00:32:53.009
the perfect word stigma, because how many people

00:32:53.009 --> 00:32:55.269
are afraid to reach out about how they're dealing

00:32:55.269 --> 00:32:57.950
with their own mental health, alcohol, you know,

00:32:57.950 --> 00:33:00.910
drugs or just simple, you know, depression because

00:33:00.910 --> 00:33:04.289
of the stigma. So we live that stigma. So imagine

00:33:04.289 --> 00:33:06.549
being an addict in an area where it's illegal.

00:33:06.809 --> 00:33:09.349
I mean, you know. There's so many people that

00:33:09.349 --> 00:33:11.869
wear our uniform that are struggling with addiction.

00:33:12.390 --> 00:33:15.529
So if we don't even have compassion for our own

00:33:15.529 --> 00:33:17.750
police officers and firefighters and paramedics

00:33:17.750 --> 00:33:20.829
and soldiers who are battling addiction, then

00:33:20.829 --> 00:33:22.589
we sure as shit aren't going to care about the

00:33:22.589 --> 00:33:27.009
average person. So the only way, in my opinion,

00:33:27.069 --> 00:33:30.250
that we turn this around is we look at the addict

00:33:30.250 --> 00:33:33.329
the way they should be looked at, as a patient,

00:33:33.569 --> 00:33:36.250
as someone who's hurting, whether it's a broken

00:33:36.250 --> 00:33:41.309
pelvis. or a crippling addiction and we we encircle

00:33:41.309 --> 00:33:44.109
them in the medical community we give them support

00:33:44.109 --> 00:33:46.549
that they need and as you said there will be

00:33:46.549 --> 00:33:48.130
some people that will slip through the cracks

00:33:48.130 --> 00:33:50.730
but this is something that we seem to love doing

00:33:50.730 --> 00:33:53.750
in the west is we point at the one person it

00:33:53.750 --> 00:33:56.410
didn't work for and go see it doesn't work and

00:33:56.410 --> 00:33:59.009
turn our heads to the 99 or what you know whatever

00:33:59.009 --> 00:34:02.700
percentage people that it did work for so i think

00:34:02.700 --> 00:34:05.380
the stigma word is so important because our community

00:34:05.380 --> 00:34:08.159
understands what it's like to be pushed in the

00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:10.519
shadows because of stigma and that applies to

00:34:10.519 --> 00:34:14.960
addiction and the regular people too yeah yeah

00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:17.420
i definitely agree with you i think with stigma

00:34:17.420 --> 00:34:19.760
too the more like i've obviously read a chapter

00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:22.619
about it on my book and i given a lot of thought

00:34:22.619 --> 00:34:25.940
to stigma and i think self -stigma is such a

00:34:25.940 --> 00:34:29.019
key part It certainly was for me. Like, I think

00:34:29.019 --> 00:34:31.059
when we talk about removing stigma and reducing

00:34:31.059 --> 00:34:35.179
stigma, it's a lot easier to look at stigma when

00:34:35.179 --> 00:34:37.679
it's, like, about someone else. Like, oh, that

00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:39.519
person's having a hard time. Like, oh, okay,

00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:42.260
yeah. I hope they're okay and I wish them well

00:34:42.260 --> 00:34:44.360
and all that kind of stuff. It's so much harder

00:34:44.360 --> 00:34:46.880
to wrap our heads around giving ourselves permission

00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:50.019
to have a hard time. And, like, just understanding,

00:34:50.219 --> 00:34:53.480
like, for me, I had this idea that I needed to

00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:56.840
be RoboCop. That I put on a police hat. and i

00:34:56.840 --> 00:35:00.260
wasn't human anymore and you know one of my examples

00:35:00.260 --> 00:35:03.179
after we had this bad fatal car crash and i did

00:35:03.179 --> 00:35:05.019
the next of kin and i was at scene for several

00:35:05.019 --> 00:35:08.380
hours and i saw a recruit from my recruit class

00:35:08.380 --> 00:35:10.719
the next day and he asked me about and i started

00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:14.699
tearing up and this is probably about 2009 and

00:35:14.699 --> 00:35:17.980
he said like what's wrong with you nothing was

00:35:17.980 --> 00:35:20.860
wrong with me I was a human having a normal emotional

00:35:20.860 --> 00:35:24.860
reaction to an incredibly tragic event. But I

00:35:24.860 --> 00:35:26.239
didn't understand it. He didn't understand it

00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:28.960
either. So no judgment on him either. But how

00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:31.440
do we teach that so that we can make it normal

00:35:31.440 --> 00:35:34.539
for our fire recruits, police recruits? And honestly,

00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:36.820
can we start teaching in high school? Can we

00:35:36.820 --> 00:35:38.699
start teaching kids? Like, you know who needs

00:35:38.699 --> 00:35:41.760
us the most? Men. right how many men you know

00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:43.920
that have unhealthy relationships with emotion

00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:46.780
like no one can ever see me cry no one can ever

00:35:46.780 --> 00:35:49.019
know i cry i don't have emotion and it's like

00:35:49.019 --> 00:35:51.539
you know the number of times i've talked to suicidal

00:35:51.539 --> 00:35:54.840
men as a police officer and they're shaming themselves

00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:59.079
so much because they feel emotion for sadness

00:35:59.079 --> 00:36:01.579
and hardship they've gone through when that's

00:36:01.579 --> 00:36:04.500
just part of being human and i think when we

00:36:04.500 --> 00:36:08.179
disconnect from some of those things we also

00:36:08.179 --> 00:36:11.730
disconnect from the good. Like, so, and it's

00:36:11.730 --> 00:36:14.730
like part of my story, but like my dad, I used

00:36:14.730 --> 00:36:16.909
to say to him, like, it was hard for me when

00:36:16.909 --> 00:36:18.670
I was 20, I first told my parents, I love them.

00:36:18.769 --> 00:36:20.869
That was hard for me. I was afraid to do that.

00:36:20.909 --> 00:36:23.170
That's, that sounds weird to say now, but that

00:36:23.170 --> 00:36:25.190
was my reality. I was so scared to tell him I

00:36:25.190 --> 00:36:28.469
love them. And for 10 years, if I said to my

00:36:28.469 --> 00:36:33.289
dad, dad, I love you. He'd say, I know. And then

00:36:33.289 --> 00:36:35.530
I'd say, Hey dad, when someone says, I love you

00:36:35.530 --> 00:36:37.090
too, or I love you, you're supposed to say, I

00:36:37.090 --> 00:36:40.469
love you too. And he'd go. OK, because that's

00:36:40.469 --> 00:36:43.849
how hard that was for him as a 60 year old man.

00:36:44.150 --> 00:36:46.989
Never told his kids you love them. Couldn't couldn't

00:36:46.989 --> 00:36:49.550
even say I love you, too. That's not healthy.

00:36:49.849 --> 00:36:53.170
That's not good. And to kind of bring back into

00:36:53.170 --> 00:36:55.650
some of my story, as I went through my own hard

00:36:55.650 --> 00:36:58.610
time, I was off work on stress leave. I failed

00:36:58.610 --> 00:37:02.590
a psych exam like I got really impacted. And

00:37:02.590 --> 00:37:04.969
my dad phoned me one day to tell me he loved

00:37:04.969 --> 00:37:08.000
me. And that's the good that came out of the

00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:10.260
bad. And what I often say is we kind of need

00:37:10.260 --> 00:37:12.780
to integrate the experiences we go through. Because

00:37:12.780 --> 00:37:15.679
I've seen a lot of death and sadness and bad

00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:18.699
things in the world. And what I do to make it

00:37:18.699 --> 00:37:21.199
make sense in my world is I go call my dad and

00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:22.719
tell him I love him every day. Or whatever, not

00:37:22.719 --> 00:37:24.519
quite every day, but fairly often, both my parents.

00:37:25.019 --> 00:37:27.000
Because one day I won't get to. And that has

00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:29.179
brought more good into my life, the good that's

00:37:29.179 --> 00:37:31.900
come from the bad. And like today, I tell my

00:37:31.900 --> 00:37:33.750
kids how much I love them. I tell him every day.

00:37:34.030 --> 00:37:35.969
My son even said that to me. Why do you tell

00:37:35.969 --> 00:37:38.889
me you love me so much? Because I do. It's also

00:37:38.889 --> 00:37:40.510
that I grew up in a house where I had a dad who

00:37:40.510 --> 00:37:43.349
couldn't tell me he loved me. So maybe I'm overcompensating,

00:37:43.409 --> 00:37:46.469
but that's to me a little bit of how you, we're

00:37:46.469 --> 00:37:47.849
going to, if you're going to be a first responder,

00:37:47.949 --> 00:37:50.429
frontline, long -term, you're going to see some

00:37:50.429 --> 00:37:53.349
hard things and you got to find a way, not just

00:37:53.349 --> 00:37:55.389
to repress it, compartmentalize it and carry

00:37:55.389 --> 00:37:57.889
that pain around, but to integrate it into who

00:37:57.889 --> 00:38:00.469
you are and find ways to learn from it, grow

00:38:00.469 --> 00:38:04.860
from it. and not just suffer from it. We talked

00:38:04.860 --> 00:38:07.420
about obviously the kind of pseudo adoption of

00:38:07.420 --> 00:38:10.599
your brother and kind of jumped into the kindness

00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:13.539
and compassion. When you reflect on your early

00:38:13.539 --> 00:38:17.400
years, knowing that our childhood experiences

00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:20.800
can absolutely contribute to the fracture of

00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:22.900
our foundation if left unaddressed, if they were

00:38:22.900 --> 00:38:27.320
negative, what, if any, were the downside, some

00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:30.690
of the struggles of your early life? if you go

00:38:30.690 --> 00:38:34.190
back another generation um you know have you

00:38:34.190 --> 00:38:36.070
been able to see a relationship between the way

00:38:36.070 --> 00:38:42.650
your parents were raised yeah so i actually think

00:38:42.650 --> 00:38:46.090
i had a really positive childhood um and everyone

00:38:46.090 --> 00:38:48.369
has their own challenges that they go through

00:38:48.369 --> 00:38:50.869
i had loving supporting parents my mom was a

00:38:50.869 --> 00:38:52.889
stay -at -home mom until i was like basically

00:38:52.889 --> 00:38:55.130
i think finished or finishing elementary school

00:38:55.130 --> 00:38:58.789
my dad worked a ton So he wasn't always there,

00:38:58.909 --> 00:39:01.070
but he did his best. He coached me a bit. He

00:39:01.070 --> 00:39:04.170
did come to some things. My dad loved me. He

00:39:04.170 --> 00:39:06.489
just couldn't tell me he loved me. And I was

00:39:06.489 --> 00:39:10.389
in a home where I felt loved. It just wasn't

00:39:10.389 --> 00:39:12.929
something that was talked about. And I think

00:39:12.929 --> 00:39:14.869
that has impacted some of those other members

00:39:14.869 --> 00:39:17.210
of my family. Some of my siblings struggled with

00:39:17.210 --> 00:39:18.570
some of those kinds of things, being able to

00:39:18.570 --> 00:39:21.630
say it and whatnot. And when I look back to some

00:39:21.630 --> 00:39:24.090
of their upbringings, well, they had even more

00:39:24.090 --> 00:39:26.980
siblings. right my dad had a whole whack of siblings

00:39:26.980 --> 00:39:31.079
i think he had six siblings and then his dad

00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:34.619
had like 13 siblings so how much room do you

00:39:34.619 --> 00:39:36.940
have and how hard was life back then how different

00:39:36.940 --> 00:39:39.559
was life like i often asked my dad about what

00:39:39.559 --> 00:39:42.619
life was like he had one bath a week you know

00:39:42.619 --> 00:39:44.599
you got shipped out to like boarding school away

00:39:44.599 --> 00:39:47.420
from your family right like it you know you see

00:39:47.420 --> 00:39:49.739
your grandparents twice ever in your entire life

00:39:50.360 --> 00:39:52.460
Instead of this world where we have FaceTime

00:39:52.460 --> 00:39:55.940
every day and airplanes taking us. It was an

00:39:55.940 --> 00:39:58.760
absolutely different reality. I would also say

00:39:58.760 --> 00:40:02.539
the mental models around what a man was. A man

00:40:02.539 --> 00:40:05.460
didn't show. And I've seen it. I have a lot of

00:40:05.460 --> 00:40:08.320
nieces and nephews. And I've seen it where someone's

00:40:08.320 --> 00:40:10.719
yelling at them. They're six or four or whatever.

00:40:10.900 --> 00:40:12.940
And like, what's wrong with you? Boys don't cry.

00:40:13.179 --> 00:40:16.440
Stop crying. That's the kind of stuff that programs

00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:19.179
us for later in life. When I'm talking to that.

00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:22.460
often suicidal male as a frontline police officer.

00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:24.219
And they're saying, I don't know what's wrong

00:40:24.219 --> 00:40:25.619
with me. I don't know why I'm crying. And I'm

00:40:25.619 --> 00:40:27.659
like, because you're human, because you're in

00:40:27.659 --> 00:40:30.039
pain. Just because you can't see it like your

00:40:30.039 --> 00:40:31.980
broken arm doesn't mean it's not the exact same

00:40:31.980 --> 00:40:36.079
pain. And just that shaming yourself only makes

00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:40.199
it worse. Absolutely. Yeah, I didn't know where

00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:42.239
that came from. Like, it'd be really interesting

00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:45.239
to go back in time to be like, where did boys

00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:47.079
don't cry come from? Because the first thing

00:40:47.079 --> 00:40:50.599
we do when we're born is cry. You know what I

00:40:50.599 --> 00:40:52.440
mean? That's a good point. And then you get all

00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:54.760
these manly men that are playing, you know, the

00:40:54.760 --> 00:40:57.420
win the Stanley Cup or the World Cup or the NFL.

00:40:57.699 --> 00:40:59.599
And they're in tears and they're hugging each

00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:01.260
other. All the ones that lost are in tears. We're

00:41:01.260 --> 00:41:04.039
not saying, oh, suck it up. Stop being a bitch.

00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:06.800
You know, lineman 12. You know, we're OK with

00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:09.400
that. So there's such a it's a complete facade.

00:41:10.119 --> 00:41:12.119
Yeah, of course, you graze your knee and you

00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:15.019
cry every time. You might have to work on your

00:41:15.019 --> 00:41:17.880
pain tolerance a little bit. And then every time

00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:19.739
you smell a flower and you burst into tears,

00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:21.900
maybe there's some underlying stuff that needs

00:41:21.900 --> 00:41:24.679
to be worked on because you seem extremely...

00:41:25.949 --> 00:41:28.210
um sensitive and maybe you need to lay off the

00:41:28.210 --> 00:41:30.210
testosterone because your restaurants go estrogen's

00:41:30.210 --> 00:41:32.849
gone through the roof but uh you know overall

00:41:32.849 --> 00:41:35.750
yeah i mean to shame someone to just be tapping

00:41:35.750 --> 00:41:38.489
into a human emotion is ridiculous and you talked

00:41:38.489 --> 00:41:41.610
about that kind of robocop thing i've said this

00:41:41.610 --> 00:41:44.650
about identity in the fire service you know we

00:41:44.650 --> 00:41:47.230
were we were raising similar um generations than

00:41:47.230 --> 00:41:49.409
it was i mean literally robocop rambo you know

00:41:49.409 --> 00:41:52.090
stallone i mean uh schwarzenegger you know these

00:41:52.090 --> 00:41:55.989
stone -faced bodybuilder actors were supposedly

00:41:55.989 --> 00:41:58.909
what men were and that's bullshit they were bodybuilders

00:41:58.909 --> 00:42:02.130
you know that that red lines off a page not saying

00:42:02.130 --> 00:42:03.650
they're bad people but they didn't represent

00:42:03.650 --> 00:42:06.610
a real human being in those movies and so then

00:42:06.610 --> 00:42:09.349
you go into uniform and then you know you see

00:42:09.349 --> 00:42:11.250
some of these salty guys in your profession like

00:42:11.250 --> 00:42:13.230
oh that's what i'm supposed to be don't cry stone

00:42:13.230 --> 00:42:17.190
-faced you know this fake stoicism but then you

00:42:17.190 --> 00:42:19.030
come out the other end and instead of the yin

00:42:19.030 --> 00:42:22.349
yang now you're you're a white circle And like

00:42:22.349 --> 00:42:24.369
I said, the reason why most of us went into this

00:42:24.369 --> 00:42:26.849
profession is because we actually care about

00:42:26.849 --> 00:42:29.030
people. And then you get in and then you have

00:42:29.030 --> 00:42:31.989
this compassion fatigue and it's kind of ground

00:42:31.989 --> 00:42:35.849
out of you to actually show caring. And then

00:42:35.849 --> 00:42:37.530
you come out the other end, you wonder why these

00:42:37.530 --> 00:42:41.530
retirees are so lost because they've been led

00:42:41.530 --> 00:42:44.190
to believe that a real man is, oh, I'm a cop,

00:42:44.329 --> 00:42:46.570
I'm a firefighter. No, you're not. You're Steve

00:42:46.570 --> 00:42:50.170
or Jennifer who became a cop, became a firefighter.

00:42:50.510 --> 00:42:53.030
But you were a yin and a yang. And that soft,

00:42:53.110 --> 00:42:56.449
kind, compassionate part of you that put you

00:42:56.449 --> 00:42:59.730
into uniform, you can't let go of that. And as

00:42:59.730 --> 00:43:01.369
you come out the other end, you've got to understand

00:43:01.369 --> 00:43:03.730
that you're still that same kind, considerate

00:43:03.730 --> 00:43:06.030
person. And I think that's where there's that

00:43:06.030 --> 00:43:09.610
real confusion in the mental health space is

00:43:09.610 --> 00:43:12.210
because now that loss of identity, once people

00:43:12.210 --> 00:43:15.639
retire or transition out. you know that white

00:43:15.639 --> 00:43:18.239
circle is is a complete delusion you're not but

00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:20.840
you you didn't allow yourself to feel the very

00:43:20.840 --> 00:43:23.360
emotions that we're talking about boys do cry

00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:27.400
yeah and when we try to be someone who doesn't

00:43:27.400 --> 00:43:30.000
it almost is a bigger weight we add on to ourselves

00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:32.380
so if you're undergoing that pain say you lose

00:43:32.380 --> 00:43:34.719
a loved one or whatnot and then you add on that

00:43:34.719 --> 00:43:37.219
layer of shame of what's wrong with me how can

00:43:37.219 --> 00:43:39.400
i be so weak you know that's the kind of stuff

00:43:39.400 --> 00:43:43.099
or even just more like explicit versions of that

00:43:44.269 --> 00:43:46.670
back to the whole like you know where the boys

00:43:46.670 --> 00:43:49.130
don't cry comes from and that mindset i think

00:43:49.130 --> 00:43:51.429
it's often insecurity like i think there's an

00:43:51.429 --> 00:43:53.929
element of like what we think we're supposed

00:43:53.929 --> 00:43:56.590
to be and it's just out of alignment with our

00:43:56.590 --> 00:43:59.690
biology with how we've evolved and it's it's

00:43:59.690 --> 00:44:03.090
not good for us but so often it's i think it

00:44:03.090 --> 00:44:05.309
takes actual confidence to just be yourself and

00:44:05.309 --> 00:44:07.610
i don't care yeah i cry about some things and

00:44:07.610 --> 00:44:10.210
stuff impacts me and that's fine that's i'm a

00:44:10.210 --> 00:44:12.789
man and i have zero if anyone doesn't like it

00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:15.320
I don't care. That's their problem, not mine,

00:44:15.380 --> 00:44:18.420
right? And it took me years, literally years

00:44:18.420 --> 00:44:20.619
of repeating to myself, I don't have anything

00:44:20.619 --> 00:44:22.519
to be ashamed of. I haven't done anything wrong

00:44:22.519 --> 00:44:25.000
before I finally believed it. And part of why

00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:27.539
I wrote my book was my hope was to spread that

00:44:27.539 --> 00:44:29.380
out to other people. Like I spent years trying

00:44:29.380 --> 00:44:31.579
to teach it to myself. And is there a way to

00:44:31.579 --> 00:44:33.500
then shorten that learning curve and pass it

00:44:33.500 --> 00:44:36.099
on to others? The other thing that you mentioned,

00:44:36.199 --> 00:44:39.119
talked a bit about retirement. And I think what

00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:41.639
happens, just my own take a little bit with retirement.

00:44:43.139 --> 00:44:45.679
we lose some of the identity, as you were saying.

00:44:45.780 --> 00:44:48.219
We also lose some of the connection because it

00:44:48.219 --> 00:44:50.900
used to be this big thing. I'm Mark, I'm a cop.

00:44:51.059 --> 00:44:52.900
There's a book called Emotional Survival for

00:44:52.900 --> 00:44:56.000
Law Enforcement by Dr. Kevin Gilmartin. It's

00:44:56.000 --> 00:44:57.780
a fantastic book, but he basically says how the

00:44:57.780 --> 00:45:00.440
police identity takes over our life. So when

00:45:00.440 --> 00:45:02.420
I got hired, I was Mark and I was a hockey coach

00:45:02.420 --> 00:45:04.440
and I'm all these things. I'm a husband, I'm

00:45:04.440 --> 00:45:06.960
a father and whatnot. And then those get pushed

00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:09.670
out. and it might my police identity just starts

00:45:09.670 --> 00:45:12.369
to take over and i would suspect there's comparable

00:45:12.369 --> 00:45:15.230
with things like fire and military and other

00:45:15.230 --> 00:45:19.190
professions so when we leave we lose that sense

00:45:19.190 --> 00:45:21.190
of identity we have to re -find it we have to

00:45:21.190 --> 00:45:24.329
find a new identity and we lose some of that

00:45:24.329 --> 00:45:27.949
connection belonging meaning but we're often

00:45:27.949 --> 00:45:30.489
still left with some of the downside we're still

00:45:30.489 --> 00:45:32.590
left sometimes with some of the trauma right

00:45:32.590 --> 00:45:34.409
you're still having nightmares or having those

00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:37.380
the impacts of traumatic events, but you lose

00:45:37.380 --> 00:45:39.260
some of that protective buffer, which can even

00:45:39.260 --> 00:45:42.739
be another risk factor to take on. Absolutely.

00:45:43.019 --> 00:45:45.380
Well, you mentioned about the crime in Delta.

00:45:45.559 --> 00:45:47.719
You ended up becoming a Delta police officer.

00:45:47.860 --> 00:45:51.179
So walk me through your journey through the door

00:45:51.179 --> 00:45:53.219
of law enforcement and how you started seeing

00:45:53.219 --> 00:45:57.380
the other side of your community. Yeah. Okay.

00:45:57.539 --> 00:46:00.320
Interesting. I mean, I didn't really grow up

00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:02.159
around drugs or drug addicts or any of that.

00:46:02.590 --> 00:46:04.670
And like I was in training, I was a couple months

00:46:04.670 --> 00:46:08.010
on the job and I ran into somebody, I ran into

00:46:08.010 --> 00:46:10.210
multiple people that I knew growing up. People

00:46:10.210 --> 00:46:12.250
that were like a roommate at a hockey road trip

00:46:12.250 --> 00:46:16.010
and now they're drug addicted and in crime every

00:46:16.010 --> 00:46:18.389
day. And now it's my job to chase them around,

00:46:18.489 --> 00:46:20.429
arrest them, try and convince them to stop and

00:46:20.429 --> 00:46:23.320
ultimately often chase them out of town. That's

00:46:23.320 --> 00:46:25.820
what we do. We just dislocate crime. Okay, I'm

00:46:25.820 --> 00:46:28.000
going to bother you enough until you leave and

00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:30.099
you move somewhere else. And we try to find a

00:46:30.099 --> 00:46:31.980
way to drop you off at your mom's house instead

00:46:31.980 --> 00:46:33.800
of your dad's so that you're not in our town,

00:46:33.860 --> 00:46:37.039
right? Yeah, so it was a real eye -opener to

00:46:37.039 --> 00:46:40.780
just get exposed to the drug world, the drug

00:46:40.780 --> 00:46:45.420
culture, to just see the town differently. You

00:46:45.420 --> 00:46:48.219
know, I've had files where you're... you're writing

00:46:48.219 --> 00:46:50.380
a warrant, you're kicking in the biggest crime

00:46:50.380 --> 00:46:53.639
house in town, you know, where often the drugs

00:46:53.639 --> 00:46:55.639
and property crime is so interconnected. And

00:46:55.639 --> 00:46:57.579
actually the way I usually got in was frauds,

00:46:57.579 --> 00:47:00.099
right? They'd pass fraudulent currency or things

00:47:00.099 --> 00:47:02.860
like that, set up identity fraud, cell phones,

00:47:03.059 --> 00:47:05.280
and most of them aren't very smart about it,

00:47:05.300 --> 00:47:07.179
but we don't really even investigate most of

00:47:07.179 --> 00:47:09.199
it. We don't have the resources. We have to prioritize.

00:47:09.340 --> 00:47:11.980
We prioritize violent crime, sexual assaults,

00:47:11.980 --> 00:47:14.920
all that stuff, murders. And some of the frauds

00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:17.380
often, oh, it's not violent. We just make it

00:47:17.380 --> 00:47:21.780
go away so uh that was kind of my road why i

00:47:21.780 --> 00:47:24.300
started investigating a lot of frauds and then

00:47:24.300 --> 00:47:27.260
it got me some awesome files like you know actually

00:47:27.260 --> 00:47:29.800
you'd go shut down the biggest crime house in

00:47:29.800 --> 00:47:32.360
town you'd find drugs you'd find stolen property

00:47:32.360 --> 00:47:35.920
you'd find guns prostitution like all that stuff

00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:37.820
would be coming out of that same central hub

00:47:37.820 --> 00:47:40.900
so if you can shut that down you can try and

00:47:40.900 --> 00:47:43.679
help your community become safer so seeing that

00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:46.260
um I would say the other one was impaired driving,

00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:49.400
drunk driving. I've obviously, sadly, I'm sure

00:47:49.400 --> 00:47:53.139
you've seen some too, but saw the impacts. We

00:47:53.139 --> 00:47:55.599
actually changed the laws here in British Columbia,

00:47:55.760 --> 00:47:58.380
where I was living, in Vancouver area. There

00:47:58.380 --> 00:48:01.280
was a young girl who died, was struck by a drunk

00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:05.000
driver. It was my old patrol watch that had taken

00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:06.980
that call. It was shortly before I joined the

00:48:06.980 --> 00:48:09.760
watch, but they passed a law to change the drunk

00:48:09.760 --> 00:48:11.780
driving laws to make it a lot easier for the

00:48:11.780 --> 00:48:14.630
police. and that made the community a lot safer

00:48:14.630 --> 00:48:17.349
so those would be a few of the ways i saw it

00:48:17.349 --> 00:48:20.250
um yeah and then you get out to community events

00:48:20.250 --> 00:48:22.809
too there's good too right it's not all bad so

00:48:22.809 --> 00:48:24.570
i'd get out and try and go to some of the community

00:48:24.570 --> 00:48:26.929
events and it's actually really nice when you

00:48:26.929 --> 00:48:29.130
can have positive interactions because like even

00:48:29.130 --> 00:48:32.230
for me joining policing i actually i signed up

00:48:32.230 --> 00:48:34.969
want to be a school liaison officer I actually

00:48:34.969 --> 00:48:36.510
almost became a teacher because I really like

00:48:36.510 --> 00:48:39.090
working with kids. I like coaching hockey. So

00:48:39.090 --> 00:48:41.789
it was good to get to go into schools. And I've

00:48:41.789 --> 00:48:44.250
been a part of a lot of student police academies

00:48:44.250 --> 00:48:47.909
or youth academies where you spend a week instructing

00:48:47.909 --> 00:48:50.269
kids from 6 in the morning until 10 at night.

00:48:50.590 --> 00:48:52.690
And some of them I maintain relationships with

00:48:52.690 --> 00:48:55.550
even years later. You still go for lunch or they're

00:48:55.550 --> 00:48:58.809
in their mid -20s now. in a way you're almost

00:48:58.809 --> 00:49:00.750
like a little bit of a mentor like you stay in

00:49:00.750 --> 00:49:02.570
touch and kind of check in with them as they

00:49:02.570 --> 00:49:05.190
go along uh so that again really cool to see

00:49:05.190 --> 00:49:08.210
some of the positive sides of policing too What

00:49:08.210 --> 00:49:10.630
is the philosophy in the departments you've worked

00:49:10.630 --> 00:49:14.230
for as far as the kind of person that is an SRO

00:49:14.230 --> 00:49:16.130
that is in the school? Because I've had some

00:49:16.130 --> 00:49:17.849
really interesting conversations with people.

00:49:18.590 --> 00:49:21.190
I just had Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman on

00:49:21.190 --> 00:49:23.449
again. So we revisited that subject. He's got

00:49:23.449 --> 00:49:26.429
a great book, Assassination Generation. But,

00:49:26.510 --> 00:49:28.449
you know, more often than not, you see it as

00:49:28.449 --> 00:49:31.809
an overtime position or, you know, a kind of

00:49:31.809 --> 00:49:34.079
retirement position. But then when you think

00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:36.860
about the zero to 100 element of someone walking

00:49:36.860 --> 00:49:40.579
in with an assault rifle, for example, you know,

00:49:40.599 --> 00:49:43.920
it's the reverse. I would argue you need a very,

00:49:43.980 --> 00:49:46.400
very competent police officer to be responding

00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:49.730
to that particular event. You've got the proactive

00:49:49.730 --> 00:49:52.070
side as well. So that person can't be Robocop.

00:49:52.090 --> 00:49:53.909
They've got to be able to be that mentor too.

00:49:54.110 --> 00:49:56.289
God forbid, you know, hoping that there isn't

00:49:56.289 --> 00:49:58.949
any violence in that school. So what was the

00:49:58.949 --> 00:50:02.050
kind of person that they were looking to put

00:50:02.050 --> 00:50:06.650
in the schools in your department? Pretty varied.

00:50:06.929 --> 00:50:12.150
It really depended, you know. It is a crucial

00:50:12.150 --> 00:50:14.889
position. First off, you mentioned Dave Grossman.

00:50:14.929 --> 00:50:16.670
For anyone listening, go check out that episode

00:50:16.670 --> 00:50:18.809
once you're done because his wisdom is just awesome.

00:50:19.010 --> 00:50:22.329
He's got tons of good stuff to share. But really,

00:50:22.369 --> 00:50:25.630
it should be some of our best people. I think

00:50:25.630 --> 00:50:29.630
at times, a lot of people seek the action in

00:50:29.630 --> 00:50:32.010
policing. So like when I got hired, I went to

00:50:32.010 --> 00:50:34.090
a chief's interview and they said, what do you

00:50:34.090 --> 00:50:35.650
want to do in your career? And I said, I want

00:50:35.650 --> 00:50:37.650
to be a school liaison officer. And the entire

00:50:37.650 --> 00:50:40.349
management board just burst out laughing because

00:50:40.349 --> 00:50:42.969
nobody comes in and says that. People come in

00:50:42.969 --> 00:50:44.869
and say, I want to do canine, I want to do ERT,

00:50:44.989 --> 00:50:47.570
I want to do homicide, I want to do IDENT. Who's

00:50:47.570 --> 00:50:49.989
coming in saying, I want to teach kids in schools?

00:50:50.269 --> 00:50:51.829
Like most of those people went off to be teachers.

00:50:53.289 --> 00:50:55.030
But maybe that means that's the kind of stuff

00:50:55.030 --> 00:50:56.489
we need to look for. We need to look for people

00:50:56.489 --> 00:50:58.429
that want to have that impact in their community

00:50:58.429 --> 00:51:02.690
and not just in that reactive way. You mentioned

00:51:02.690 --> 00:51:04.949
that, you know, I kind of agree with you. There's

00:51:04.949 --> 00:51:07.590
two sides. One is like the safety side. You need

00:51:07.590 --> 00:51:11.090
someone who's tactical enough to be ready to

00:51:11.090 --> 00:51:14.269
respond. It basically, I say there's no disrespect.

00:51:14.429 --> 00:51:16.929
It can't be a dumping ground. It can't be we

00:51:16.929 --> 00:51:18.550
have this person who's a problem. Let's send

00:51:18.550 --> 00:51:20.429
them over to schools. It doesn't matter. That's

00:51:20.429 --> 00:51:22.210
the wrong way to look at it. It needs to be,

00:51:22.210 --> 00:51:25.010
you know, a high accountability, the kind of

00:51:25.010 --> 00:51:27.190
position where you make it sought after. You

00:51:27.190 --> 00:51:28.969
find ways to make it a place that people want

00:51:28.969 --> 00:51:32.070
to go that maybe in whatever systemic changes

00:51:32.070 --> 00:51:33.789
you make to do that, maybe it's part of the promotional

00:51:33.789 --> 00:51:36.630
system. Maybe you need experience there to get

00:51:36.630 --> 00:51:39.269
promoted to the next level or whatever things

00:51:39.269 --> 00:51:41.130
you can do within the culture to make it positive.

00:51:41.429 --> 00:51:45.010
But yeah, I've seen personally my anecdotal experience.

00:51:45.130 --> 00:51:46.389
I mean, we've had lots of positions for that.

00:51:46.510 --> 00:51:48.090
I've seen what I would describe as some very

00:51:48.090 --> 00:51:50.949
high performers. Like one of my mentors was someone

00:51:50.949 --> 00:51:52.989
who spent a significant amount of time in schools

00:51:52.989 --> 00:51:55.989
and was awesome. Awesome. But I think at times

00:51:55.989 --> 00:51:58.469
it's also been the place where this person isn't

00:51:58.469 --> 00:52:00.840
really doing well. I don't really want them on

00:52:00.840 --> 00:52:03.260
patrol. So we're going to go put them somewhere

00:52:03.260 --> 00:52:06.599
that seems a little easier or whatnot. And I

00:52:06.599 --> 00:52:09.780
think that's the wrong way to go about it. Absolutely.

00:52:10.000 --> 00:52:13.780
Yeah. My son had a bad experience with a horrendous

00:52:13.780 --> 00:52:16.940
SRO in middle school. And between her and the

00:52:16.940 --> 00:52:19.420
principal, it was a nightmare. And we uncovered

00:52:19.420 --> 00:52:22.719
that basically, long story short, they were sending

00:52:22.719 --> 00:52:27.159
kids off for a 5150, a Baker Act, a psychological

00:52:27.159 --> 00:52:29.139
hold. So they would send them to a psych facility.

00:52:29.659 --> 00:52:32.360
you know, take your shoelaces 72 hours in a cell

00:52:32.360 --> 00:52:34.820
because these kids were having emotional issues,

00:52:34.880 --> 00:52:37.239
not threatening suicide, not threatening to shoot

00:52:37.239 --> 00:52:40.079
up the school. And it was horrendous. And now

00:52:40.079 --> 00:52:42.039
the law has changed. And I've said this many

00:52:42.039 --> 00:52:44.920
times, if those two idiots did the same thing

00:52:44.920 --> 00:52:47.760
now, they would be behind bars. And yet I believe

00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:49.940
she's still working in schools, which is just,

00:52:49.980 --> 00:52:52.059
you know, ridiculous. But when I went to her...

00:52:52.670 --> 00:52:54.690
The sheriff's department blamed the school system

00:52:54.690 --> 00:52:56.570
and the school system blamed the sheriff's department.

00:52:56.750 --> 00:52:59.389
So obviously there's just a cancer of cowardice

00:52:59.389 --> 00:53:02.469
in the leadership there. But imagine now that

00:53:02.469 --> 00:53:06.349
same turd, someone walks in with a gun. I just

00:53:06.349 --> 00:53:09.610
know the kind of person that she is, that there

00:53:09.610 --> 00:53:11.530
would be a lot of dead kids because that wasn't

00:53:11.530 --> 00:53:15.269
the right person at all. So it terrifies me.

00:53:15.599 --> 00:53:17.940
Because I've had, in my son's elementary, we

00:53:17.940 --> 00:53:20.800
had a near miss. They had a code red. And thank

00:53:20.800 --> 00:53:23.139
God it was a threat, but it never went through.

00:53:23.380 --> 00:53:26.840
I think it was a boyfriend of one of the parents

00:53:26.840 --> 00:53:29.500
who said he was going to come to the school and

00:53:29.500 --> 00:53:32.059
shoot it up. And I was in the school. I happened

00:53:32.059 --> 00:53:35.320
to be dropping my son off after a medical appointment.

00:53:35.699 --> 00:53:37.639
And so I got to see how vulnerable they were.

00:53:38.030 --> 00:53:40.949
So to me, having not only the first responders

00:53:40.949 --> 00:53:42.809
lens as far as being trained from the outside

00:53:42.809 --> 00:53:46.489
in, but being a parent on the inside, absolutely

00:53:46.489 --> 00:53:48.889
you need to have a hard charger in there. Now,

00:53:48.989 --> 00:53:50.829
like you said, it could be someone right off

00:53:50.829 --> 00:53:53.070
the bat. It could be someone that spent 15 years

00:53:53.070 --> 00:53:55.989
in the worst areas in town and now they've got

00:53:55.989 --> 00:53:58.130
that experience, but they're looking to be in

00:53:58.130 --> 00:54:01.510
a little different environment. But to put the

00:54:01.510 --> 00:54:05.849
problem cop. You know, the obese cop, the elderly

00:54:05.849 --> 00:54:08.210
cop that can barely do anything anymore in a

00:54:08.210 --> 00:54:11.769
school where you're protecting, you know, the

00:54:11.769 --> 00:54:14.230
ratio is one to, you know, whatever, a thousand

00:54:14.230 --> 00:54:17.110
children. You know, we've seen the results. You

00:54:17.110 --> 00:54:18.670
know, we've seen whether it's poor leadership

00:54:18.670 --> 00:54:20.989
in Ovaldi, whether it's cowardice in Parkland.

00:54:21.250 --> 00:54:24.369
You know, the wrong person results in numerous

00:54:24.369 --> 00:54:28.829
deaths and that is unacceptable. Yeah, I'm sorry

00:54:28.829 --> 00:54:33.269
to hear you had such a bad experience. James,

00:54:33.269 --> 00:54:35.369
the other thing I would, I would add some more

00:54:35.369 --> 00:54:39.630
kind of layers to it. Number one is, is training,

00:54:39.750 --> 00:54:41.929
right? We have like active shooter training.

00:54:42.590 --> 00:54:45.750
And in my opinion, I think sometimes it's, it's

00:54:45.750 --> 00:54:48.670
a little more fixated on like move this way,

00:54:48.710 --> 00:54:52.730
move that way. And I think instead back to lethal

00:54:52.730 --> 00:54:55.780
force psychology. Like, okay, how much time do

00:54:55.780 --> 00:54:57.300
you have in training? So let's say up here, you

00:54:57.300 --> 00:54:59.460
got 26 weeks before a police officer leaves the

00:54:59.460 --> 00:55:01.840
academy, hits the road. In other places, it's

00:55:01.840 --> 00:55:05.039
40 or whatnot. It's different. So much of your

00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:08.380
time is spent on marksmanship, on shooting, pulling

00:55:08.380 --> 00:55:11.019
a trigger in a range at a piece of paper. And

00:55:11.019 --> 00:55:14.019
a very, very, very tiny portion is anything around

00:55:14.019 --> 00:55:16.119
lethal force psychology and actually preparing

00:55:16.119 --> 00:55:20.579
for your human. And when this happens, you're

00:55:20.579 --> 00:55:22.960
going to have your, oh my God moment. You're

00:55:22.960 --> 00:55:25.119
going to be scared for your life. And now you've

00:55:25.119 --> 00:55:26.280
got to take a breath and then you've got to keep

00:55:26.280 --> 00:55:28.539
going. And I think we've got to actually teach

00:55:28.539 --> 00:55:30.239
a little bit more about some of that kind of

00:55:30.239 --> 00:55:32.480
stuff. And I say it because, I mean, I've done

00:55:32.480 --> 00:55:35.480
10 years in an ERT program or SWAT program. So

00:55:35.480 --> 00:55:38.500
I've had some calls that have been a little like,

00:55:38.559 --> 00:55:40.659
oh, wow, that was kind of close. Like, you know,

00:55:40.679 --> 00:55:42.699
a few times when you're like, today, this is

00:55:42.699 --> 00:55:48.820
real. Excuse me. And I think we need to do a

00:55:48.820 --> 00:55:51.119
much better job of training cops for that tactical

00:55:51.119 --> 00:55:54.210
aspect. I think, you know, if you can watch YouTube

00:55:54.210 --> 00:55:56.909
videos, you can find all kinds of examples of

00:55:56.909 --> 00:55:59.869
horrendously handled calls, horrendous tactics.

00:56:00.170 --> 00:56:03.849
And I think it's because we're not yet doing

00:56:03.849 --> 00:56:05.550
a good enough job preparing ourselves within

00:56:05.550 --> 00:56:07.650
the culture. So that's one side is the tactical

00:56:07.650 --> 00:56:10.530
side. The other side is almost like that education

00:56:10.530 --> 00:56:14.170
understanding piece. Because, you know, I can

00:56:14.170 --> 00:56:15.750
tell from speaking with you, from reading your

00:56:15.750 --> 00:56:18.050
stuff, like how much you know about trauma and

00:56:18.050 --> 00:56:21.280
suicide and all these kind of topics. you have

00:56:21.280 --> 00:56:24.019
a very advanced understanding that your average

00:56:24.019 --> 00:56:26.639
person does not. And your average police officer

00:56:26.639 --> 00:56:29.420
does not, right? I mean, I see it from talking

00:56:29.420 --> 00:56:30.780
to people. I've even had doctors where you talk

00:56:30.780 --> 00:56:32.179
to them and they don't know that much about it.

00:56:32.239 --> 00:56:34.739
I've been shocked at how little at times some

00:56:34.739 --> 00:56:37.340
people know, even those in, you know, professions

00:56:37.340 --> 00:56:39.820
and in those that are adjacent to this kind of

00:56:39.820 --> 00:56:42.380
topic, including law enforcement. What do cops

00:56:42.380 --> 00:56:44.920
really get taught about suicide? I would argue

00:56:44.920 --> 00:56:47.340
almost nothing. We literally just get taught,

00:56:47.460 --> 00:56:49.380
yeah, suicidal person, take them to the thing.

00:56:49.619 --> 00:56:52.260
And then if you don't, you're at risk. Then if

00:56:52.260 --> 00:56:54.860
they go and die, then you're going to get fired

00:56:54.860 --> 00:56:57.139
and sued and whatnot. And I'll say, I've been

00:56:57.139 --> 00:56:58.860
on that other side of it. I've talked to someone

00:56:58.860 --> 00:57:01.659
who had made some sort of suicidal comments.

00:57:01.920 --> 00:57:04.039
And then they say, no, I'm not suicidal. I said

00:57:04.039 --> 00:57:05.739
it, yes, but I didn't mean it. I was just trying

00:57:05.739 --> 00:57:08.159
to get something from my parents or whatever.

00:57:08.579 --> 00:57:10.420
Well, that person actually did go jump off a

00:57:10.420 --> 00:57:12.780
bridge after. And I remember coming back into

00:57:12.780 --> 00:57:15.059
work going, oh my God, am I getting fired? Am

00:57:15.059 --> 00:57:17.480
I getting sued? Am I getting charged? No, we

00:57:17.480 --> 00:57:19.579
made the best decision we could with a very challenging

00:57:19.579 --> 00:57:24.199
situation. So I think that's where we need to

00:57:24.199 --> 00:57:27.300
teach cops about those topics. And there is so

00:57:27.300 --> 00:57:29.780
much good information, but it's like turning

00:57:29.780 --> 00:57:32.920
the Titanic. It's such a slow evolution of police

00:57:32.920 --> 00:57:36.000
culture and subcultures to actually educate them.

00:57:36.179 --> 00:57:39.079
And I think there are... many of us who haven't

00:57:39.079 --> 00:57:40.519
learned this and i've learned a lot of it because

00:57:40.519 --> 00:57:42.340
i've gone and done the research on my own out

00:57:42.340 --> 00:57:44.920
of my own interest my own mental health and i've

00:57:44.920 --> 00:57:48.119
seen all my peers it's then helped me when i've

00:57:48.119 --> 00:57:50.780
interacted with people who are suicidal or in

00:57:50.780 --> 00:57:54.360
those kind of traumatized situations but just

00:57:54.360 --> 00:57:56.199
from speaking to peers there's lots of officers

00:57:56.199 --> 00:57:57.920
who don't know very much about it and they're

00:57:57.920 --> 00:58:00.460
they're trying their best without really having

00:58:00.460 --> 00:58:02.659
the sufficient knowledge and resources to do

00:58:02.659 --> 00:58:04.760
it you know at a level that i think you and i

00:58:04.760 --> 00:58:07.500
would want them to do it It's interesting hearing

00:58:07.500 --> 00:58:09.380
you say that story because, I mean, that's so

00:58:09.380 --> 00:58:13.639
tragic. But it reminds me of the way that a lot

00:58:13.639 --> 00:58:16.800
of us in the paramedic side are told by medical

00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:18.940
directors, we'll just take everyone to hospital

00:58:18.940 --> 00:58:21.820
because of liability. And what ends up happening

00:58:21.820 --> 00:58:24.139
is, you know, ERs are completely overwhelmed.

00:58:25.380 --> 00:58:27.860
And a lot of people just... don't not you know

00:58:27.860 --> 00:58:30.059
don't need to be there but you've got organizations

00:58:30.059 --> 00:58:32.500
that are too scared not to take them because

00:58:32.500 --> 00:58:34.780
of the what if now i'm not talking about chest

00:58:34.780 --> 00:58:36.639
pain and stroke obviously those have to go to

00:58:36.639 --> 00:58:39.800
a hospital you know partial decapitation but

00:58:39.800 --> 00:58:42.340
you know the the tummy ache or whatever it is

00:58:42.340 --> 00:58:44.519
if all the vitals have come through and you know

00:58:44.519 --> 00:58:46.519
the the patient doesn't want to go whatever it

00:58:46.519 --> 00:58:48.659
is there are a lot of people that go to hospital

00:58:48.659 --> 00:58:50.599
some of them don't even really want to go they've

00:58:50.599 --> 00:58:54.059
been talked into going and it's because of litigation

00:58:54.059 --> 00:58:59.280
and so As professions, if you've done the right

00:58:59.280 --> 00:59:02.239
thing as a paramedic, as a police officer, that

00:59:02.239 --> 00:59:04.360
should be enough. But what you see is people

00:59:04.360 --> 00:59:06.880
will take that one case. Oh, this person, the

00:59:06.880 --> 00:59:09.840
paramedics left and then their head exploded

00:59:09.840 --> 00:59:11.920
and that's why we have to take everyone. It's

00:59:11.920 --> 00:59:14.619
like, no, it's not. Just like you can't save

00:59:14.619 --> 00:59:17.239
everyone when it comes to addiction or suicide.

00:59:17.920 --> 00:59:20.920
And I use this example with government support.

00:59:21.360 --> 00:59:25.480
We always talk about that. that person who abused

00:59:25.480 --> 00:59:28.420
food stamps or government housing or whatever

00:59:28.420 --> 00:59:31.219
it is, when do you ever hear a story of all the

00:59:31.219 --> 00:59:34.219
good that those programs do? Of the mother or

00:59:34.219 --> 00:59:36.599
father or whatever that got back on their feet

00:59:36.599 --> 00:59:40.119
and have now, you know, working and they've bought

00:59:40.119 --> 00:59:42.400
themselves a home and, you know, you don't hear

00:59:42.400 --> 00:59:45.920
those stories. And so... Of course, if the officer

00:59:45.920 --> 00:59:47.820
leaves them on the side of the bridge and they

00:59:47.820 --> 00:59:49.719
jump, that's a different story altogether. But

00:59:49.719 --> 00:59:52.699
if the officer was diligent and they listened

00:59:52.699 --> 00:59:55.179
to them and they said, look, I was just upset,

00:59:55.380 --> 00:59:57.619
which is exactly what, you know, my son didn't

00:59:57.619 --> 01:00:00.099
even make any comments like that, but he was

01:00:00.099 --> 01:00:02.659
just upset. The protocols that should have been

01:00:02.659 --> 01:00:04.340
followed is they should have called the mental

01:00:04.340 --> 01:00:06.699
health place, come, they would have evaluated.

01:00:06.980 --> 01:00:10.179
De -escalation was the absolute priority in this

01:00:10.179 --> 01:00:11.860
whole process. Because you're talking about elementary

01:00:11.860 --> 01:00:15.989
school kids. But they also kept the parents away.

01:00:16.070 --> 01:00:18.190
They did not contact me through this whole thing.

01:00:18.250 --> 01:00:20.150
I only found out because I was calling the school.

01:00:20.429 --> 01:00:24.130
So my child was basically kidnapped. But you're

01:00:24.130 --> 01:00:26.369
doing that because after Parkland, there was

01:00:26.369 --> 01:00:29.170
this kind of knee jerk. And literally, when my

01:00:29.170 --> 01:00:33.929
son was in this facility, numerous other elementary

01:00:33.929 --> 01:00:38.070
school kids from this one school kept cycling

01:00:38.070 --> 01:00:40.440
through. So that means that there was a revolving

01:00:40.440 --> 01:00:42.500
door constantly. And when I pulled the police

01:00:42.500 --> 01:00:46.219
records, I mean, like over 100 children in one

01:00:46.219 --> 01:00:49.239
year had been had been Baker Act. Now, I can

01:00:49.239 --> 01:00:51.059
count on one hand how many people were Baker

01:00:51.059 --> 01:00:53.800
Act in my 14 year career as a firefighter working

01:00:53.800 --> 01:00:56.760
in the shittiest parts of town. And you're telling

01:00:56.760 --> 01:00:58.780
me, you know, over 100 children from that elementary

01:00:58.780 --> 01:01:02.599
school were deemed an absolute threat to themselves

01:01:02.599 --> 01:01:05.199
or someone else. So it goes back again to what

01:01:05.199 --> 01:01:08.389
we were talking about. You can't take one example

01:01:08.389 --> 01:01:12.469
and then blanket a policy because of a one what

01:01:12.469 --> 01:01:15.210
if, because sometimes things happen, even though

01:01:15.210 --> 01:01:17.150
everyone did everything right. And we've got

01:01:17.150 --> 01:01:19.309
to have the courage to say and stand by your

01:01:19.309 --> 01:01:21.969
men and women and say, look, they followed everything

01:01:21.969 --> 01:01:24.530
that we taught them to do. And the rules and

01:01:24.530 --> 01:01:26.590
regs were in place that were, you know, they

01:01:26.590 --> 01:01:29.849
were good protocols. Sometimes things happen

01:01:29.849 --> 01:01:32.409
that are, you know, so far out of left field

01:01:32.409 --> 01:01:35.550
that you cannot be ready for it. And you can't

01:01:35.550 --> 01:01:38.369
then make everyone terrified, paralysis by analysis,

01:01:38.550 --> 01:01:41.489
to make a good decision because of this anomaly

01:01:41.489 --> 01:01:46.250
what -if situation. Yeah, I think even when we

01:01:46.250 --> 01:01:48.650
look at it from a risk perspective, when we are

01:01:48.650 --> 01:01:51.650
attempting risk avoidance to just fully do everything

01:01:51.650 --> 01:01:54.429
we can so there's no risk, often that comes with

01:01:54.429 --> 01:01:57.409
its own problems. And to me, I think what you're

01:01:57.409 --> 01:01:59.150
describing, what little bit I know from this.

01:01:59.449 --> 01:02:01.929
that discussion, that sounds to me likely the

01:02:01.929 --> 01:02:04.329
kind of situation. And I see it a bit in like

01:02:04.329 --> 01:02:07.250
our emergency response work, where we go, there's

01:02:07.250 --> 01:02:10.050
risk, there's risk, whether you use some of these

01:02:10.050 --> 01:02:12.090
tactics, whether you take action, and there's

01:02:12.090 --> 01:02:14.170
risk of inaction, there's risk of doing nothing.

01:02:14.289 --> 01:02:16.929
So what we're meant to be doing is like, doing

01:02:16.929 --> 01:02:20.190
everything we can to mitigate risk, to give ourselves

01:02:20.190 --> 01:02:23.969
the best odds for a positive outcome. But we

01:02:23.969 --> 01:02:26.619
may not have full control. And the answer may

01:02:26.619 --> 01:02:28.699
not be, you know, it's almost like, you know,

01:02:28.699 --> 01:02:30.579
Jocko Willink and the dichotomy of leadership.

01:02:30.940 --> 01:02:33.519
When you go too far to one end, you're usually

01:02:33.519 --> 01:02:35.260
going to have a problem. And I think that's a

01:02:35.260 --> 01:02:36.980
little bit of what you've described. And the

01:02:36.980 --> 01:02:39.500
other big one is just is to me is partly training,

01:02:39.579 --> 01:02:42.699
knowledge and education. Like we throw cops into

01:02:42.699 --> 01:02:44.000
these situations. They're supposed to be the

01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:46.559
expert at everything. Expert tactically, expert,

01:02:46.679 --> 01:02:49.199
you know, on de -escalation, expert on communication

01:02:49.199 --> 01:02:51.900
and all these things. And I don't think we're

01:02:51.900 --> 01:02:55.630
yet investing the resources that they are. And

01:02:55.630 --> 01:02:57.769
I wish they were. I wish we had more resources

01:02:57.769 --> 01:03:00.090
and better training. Like, awesome. We need it.

01:03:00.150 --> 01:03:03.550
Let's do it. But I think so often, you know,

01:03:03.550 --> 01:03:05.550
just due to costs and budgets and whatnot, we

01:03:05.550 --> 01:03:08.110
really don't yet have that. And I would love

01:03:08.110 --> 01:03:11.369
to see us do more. I think what I saw in this

01:03:11.369 --> 01:03:13.989
particular situation was a lack of humility because

01:03:13.989 --> 01:03:16.369
there was this resource that all he had to do

01:03:16.369 --> 01:03:17.929
was pick up the phone. It was the end of the

01:03:17.929 --> 01:03:20.309
school day. And I saw two jobs worth just wanting

01:03:20.309 --> 01:03:22.949
to go home ultimately is what came out of this.

01:03:23.639 --> 01:03:25.820
But having the humility to say, and this obviously

01:03:25.820 --> 01:03:27.900
comes from leadership, like, hey, you are not

01:03:27.900 --> 01:03:32.960
psychological evaluators, teacher and cop. So

01:03:32.960 --> 01:03:36.199
use these resources, you know, be there, obviously

01:03:36.199 --> 01:03:38.000
mitigate anything that's within your scope of

01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:41.059
practice. If it's outside that, then, you know,

01:03:41.079 --> 01:03:43.579
ask for help. Go to the people that we are provided

01:03:43.579 --> 01:03:46.619
with these protocols and ask the real experts

01:03:46.619 --> 01:03:49.599
to come and evaluate or, you know, interact or

01:03:49.599 --> 01:03:52.150
counsel or whatever needs to happen. But I think

01:03:52.150 --> 01:03:53.789
that's where that arrogance comes. If you're

01:03:53.789 --> 01:03:56.769
from an arrogant agency, which I see locally

01:03:56.769 --> 01:03:59.050
here, then that's going to then be pervasive

01:03:59.050 --> 01:04:01.750
all the way down. And you're not going to get

01:04:01.750 --> 01:04:04.409
people to be humble enough to say, look, I don't

01:04:04.409 --> 01:04:07.809
know what to do in this. This is outside my capabilities.

01:04:08.389 --> 01:04:11.130
Let me be humble enough to say we need to use

01:04:11.130 --> 01:04:13.489
the resource that we've been told about. But

01:04:13.489 --> 01:04:16.110
if you have that arrogance, then you're like,

01:04:16.210 --> 01:04:19.090
you know, we'll just send them to this place.

01:04:19.599 --> 01:04:22.960
And then you're ultimately doing so much damage

01:04:22.960 --> 01:04:24.659
because I can tell you in this school particularly,

01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:28.460
I'm sorry, it was a middle school. I've been

01:04:28.460 --> 01:04:29.900
saying elementary school. This is middle school.

01:04:30.019 --> 01:04:34.519
I apologize. Do you think any of those kids were

01:04:34.519 --> 01:04:36.460
reaching out when they were struggling after

01:04:36.460 --> 01:04:39.719
hearing what happened when you reach out? Not

01:04:39.719 --> 01:04:43.000
a fucking single one. So you have now destroyed

01:04:43.000 --> 01:04:47.639
any mental health cause for help now. Because

01:04:47.639 --> 01:04:50.099
just like we talk about in law enforcement, someone

01:04:50.099 --> 01:04:51.860
says they need help and now they take their badge

01:04:51.860 --> 01:04:54.099
and their gun. Same thing with these children.

01:04:54.219 --> 01:04:57.579
You just destroyed all trust. And who knows now

01:04:57.579 --> 01:04:59.940
the ripple effect of all those incarcerations,

01:04:59.940 --> 01:05:02.880
wrongful incarcerations, as these children progress

01:05:02.880 --> 01:05:06.340
into adulthood. Because I know my son was traumatized.

01:05:06.880 --> 01:05:08.639
Because like I said, there's no other way to

01:05:08.639 --> 01:05:10.710
describe it. He was kidnapped. You know, he was

01:05:10.710 --> 01:05:12.110
already seeing counseling. He was going through

01:05:12.110 --> 01:05:14.550
some stuff emotionally. We were divorced. There

01:05:14.550 --> 01:05:17.150
was a tension in his mother's household. So,

01:05:17.190 --> 01:05:18.989
yeah, he was upset, but he wasn't threatening

01:05:18.989 --> 01:05:21.210
himself, wasn't threatening anyone else. He was

01:05:21.210 --> 01:05:24.610
just upset. And now, you know, I mean, even to

01:05:24.610 --> 01:05:27.190
this day, you know, trying to get him to even

01:05:27.190 --> 01:05:29.869
consider going to counselor now is hard because

01:05:29.869 --> 01:05:31.929
they completely destroyed that. So, like you

01:05:31.929 --> 01:05:36.500
said, you know, the damage of. doing the wrong

01:05:36.500 --> 01:05:39.380
thing more often than not far outweighs having

01:05:39.380 --> 01:05:42.619
the courage to do the right thing yeah well let

01:05:42.619 --> 01:05:45.380
me maybe add a little more context for you james

01:05:45.380 --> 01:05:49.420
um i would say looking back in my career the

01:05:49.420 --> 01:05:51.000
number of people i've dealt with that were in

01:05:51.000 --> 01:05:53.480
emotional distress suicidal you know all that

01:05:53.480 --> 01:05:56.280
kind of thing is extremely high like way beyond

01:05:56.280 --> 01:05:58.659
what i can count it well into the hundreds and

01:05:58.659 --> 01:06:01.659
i will say some of those i could have done better

01:06:01.659 --> 01:06:04.150
some of those i made mistakes Early in my career,

01:06:04.210 --> 01:06:06.269
when I think back to how I handled something

01:06:06.269 --> 01:06:09.210
at a one or two -year cop, and I actually have

01:06:09.210 --> 01:06:11.769
one in particular I can think of where I had

01:06:11.769 --> 01:06:14.250
to use some force to apprehend someone. So that's

01:06:14.250 --> 01:06:16.269
what we call it up here, mental health apprehension,

01:06:16.309 --> 01:06:19.989
person suicidal, that kind of thing. And in my

01:06:19.989 --> 01:06:21.849
mind at the time, I was concerned they would

01:06:21.849 --> 01:06:24.050
kill themselves if I did not use force at that

01:06:24.050 --> 01:06:26.110
point. And they were basically trying to lock

01:06:26.110 --> 01:06:29.110
me out of the door when I was trying to get them

01:06:29.110 --> 01:06:31.769
because the information I had was they were suicidal.

01:06:33.199 --> 01:06:36.079
I think knowing what I know now, I would have

01:06:36.079 --> 01:06:38.800
been slower. I would have been softer. I don't

01:06:38.800 --> 01:06:40.960
think I did anything illegal nor wrong. I didn't

01:06:40.960 --> 01:06:45.539
think I breached policy. But with a greater understanding

01:06:45.539 --> 01:06:48.760
of the holistic aspect of it, I think I made

01:06:48.760 --> 01:06:50.300
a mistake. I think I could have done that a lot

01:06:50.300 --> 01:06:53.500
better. And I share that because you're probably

01:06:53.500 --> 01:06:55.579
not the only person who's had a bad experience

01:06:55.579 --> 01:06:59.639
with someone from law enforcement. We need to

01:06:59.639 --> 01:07:01.539
be honest and take a look at the big picture

01:07:01.539 --> 01:07:03.760
of what we can do better. And the answer isn't

01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:06.780
always we did it perfect. And I think that does

01:07:06.780 --> 01:07:10.780
come back to training and to education where

01:07:10.780 --> 01:07:12.980
those of us who've been there and done that and

01:07:12.980 --> 01:07:16.179
who've had more experience now help teach the

01:07:16.179 --> 01:07:18.739
newer people better ways of doing it. And I think

01:07:18.739 --> 01:07:21.739
we have evolved more de -escalation. There's

01:07:21.739 --> 01:07:24.079
improvement, but there is probably still a long

01:07:24.079 --> 01:07:26.320
way to go on what we can continue to improve.

01:07:26.760 --> 01:07:29.519
So I share that just to try and take ownership

01:07:29.519 --> 01:07:31.400
of some of the mistakes I've made in my career

01:07:31.400 --> 01:07:33.579
and to apologize to you. Like, I'm sorry, that

01:07:33.579 --> 01:07:36.519
sounds very hard. I have two sons. It would be

01:07:36.519 --> 01:07:38.539
very hard for me to experience something like

01:07:38.539 --> 01:07:40.139
that as well. I mean, my sons are much younger

01:07:40.139 --> 01:07:44.260
right now, but I can, you know, I'm sorry to

01:07:44.260 --> 01:07:45.480
hear you went through that. I just wanted to

01:07:45.480 --> 01:07:47.440
share that little, like take ownership of what

01:07:47.440 --> 01:07:49.219
things I could improve in my own experiences.

01:07:50.039 --> 01:07:52.739
and apologize to you for what you went through.

01:07:53.059 --> 01:07:55.159
Yeah, well, no apologies needed. But I think

01:07:55.159 --> 01:07:57.960
by talking about this, it's not blame as much

01:07:57.960 --> 01:08:01.079
as just, all right, let's grow. Let's learn from

01:08:01.079 --> 01:08:03.300
these mistakes because they were mistakes. And

01:08:03.300 --> 01:08:06.079
like I said, this law has changed now. And I

01:08:06.079 --> 01:08:07.739
don't know what's happening in the agency anymore.

01:08:07.860 --> 01:08:10.239
Thank God my son just graduated from the school

01:08:10.239 --> 01:08:13.280
system. And again. Outside of that great school

01:08:13.280 --> 01:08:15.780
system, he's had an amazing group of teachers

01:08:15.780 --> 01:08:18.760
that have led him through. But those particular

01:08:18.760 --> 01:08:23.199
people, those bad apples can ruin so much. But

01:08:23.199 --> 01:08:25.659
if it's learned from, if it's changed, if there's

01:08:25.659 --> 01:08:28.039
evolution, then it's worth talking about. It's

01:08:28.039 --> 01:08:30.100
like COVID. You can't just sweep it under the

01:08:30.100 --> 01:08:32.439
carpet like, oh, let's not talk about all the

01:08:32.439 --> 01:08:34.319
pre -existing conditions that are still killing

01:08:34.319 --> 01:08:36.779
people. No, you have to reflect back on COVID

01:08:36.779 --> 01:08:38.199
and go, what did we do right and what did we

01:08:38.199 --> 01:08:40.560
do wrong? So that when the next virus comes,

01:08:40.720 --> 01:08:43.479
we've got a more resilient population. I want

01:08:43.479 --> 01:08:46.880
to go back to your career path, though, because

01:08:46.880 --> 01:08:51.119
obviously 2016, 2017 was, I'm sorry, 2015 was,

01:08:51.159 --> 01:08:53.819
you know, a kind of the beginning of a struggle

01:08:53.819 --> 01:08:58.460
for you. So walk me through any, you know, what

01:08:58.460 --> 01:09:01.340
we call career calls that you had prior to that,

01:09:01.380 --> 01:09:04.819
anything that started kind of. questioning your

01:09:04.819 --> 01:09:08.140
your morality a little bit and then what was

01:09:08.140 --> 01:09:11.739
that downward spiral for you specifically yeah

01:09:11.739 --> 01:09:14.920
sure i think mine was more ongoing continuation

01:09:14.920 --> 01:09:18.180
of chronic aspects as opposed to a singular you

01:09:18.180 --> 01:09:20.159
know some people have a massive trauma that just

01:09:20.159 --> 01:09:23.289
they go from zero to 100 kind of thing uh mine

01:09:23.289 --> 01:09:24.970
started within a couple months it's the one i

01:09:24.970 --> 01:09:27.890
referred to of a the first fatal next of kin

01:09:27.890 --> 01:09:30.270
notification i did and i think it was partly

01:09:30.270 --> 01:09:32.210
that i went to the scene and i did the next of

01:09:32.210 --> 01:09:34.449
kin so you have the on -scene trauma for several

01:09:34.449 --> 01:09:37.449
hours you know quite graphic scene and i won't

01:09:37.449 --> 01:09:39.649
share the details just due to vicarious trauma

01:09:39.649 --> 01:09:42.289
and whatnot but then it's you know going to the

01:09:42.289 --> 01:09:44.310
house and then seeing the emotional pain of the

01:09:44.310 --> 01:09:46.489
family you know and i'll share that little piece

01:09:46.489 --> 01:09:49.010
but after telling them their daughter had died

01:09:49.529 --> 01:09:52.130
The mother falls to her knees, just crashes to

01:09:52.130 --> 01:09:54.090
her knees and starts praying for the other driver

01:09:54.090 --> 01:09:56.289
to survive. And doesn't even know if the other

01:09:56.289 --> 01:09:59.729
driver is at fault, drunk, anything. You just

01:09:59.729 --> 01:10:01.270
found out you just lost your daughter and you're

01:10:01.270 --> 01:10:04.109
just praying to God that other person lives.

01:10:05.130 --> 01:10:07.850
It really crushed me. I carried a lot of pain

01:10:07.850 --> 01:10:10.710
from that for like 10 years. And it wasn't time

01:10:10.710 --> 01:10:12.829
that healed it. It was eventually starting to

01:10:12.829 --> 01:10:15.869
work on it. So I had a lot of those kind of things,

01:10:15.970 --> 01:10:18.720
the adding up, you know, even. Working in a community

01:10:18.720 --> 01:10:22.520
I grew up in, I would go to, for example, a suicide

01:10:22.520 --> 01:10:25.899
of someone I knew, grew up with, and I would

01:10:25.899 --> 01:10:28.920
keep the call. And they were found by their daughter.

01:10:29.260 --> 01:10:32.439
And again, very unfair, very tragic situation.

01:10:33.100 --> 01:10:35.420
And with what I know now, I wouldn't keep the

01:10:35.420 --> 01:10:37.180
call. I would have said, hey, someone who doesn't

01:10:37.180 --> 01:10:39.460
know this person should take this. I didn't do

01:10:39.460 --> 01:10:41.939
that. That was my mistake. But I didn't know

01:10:41.939 --> 01:10:46.489
what I didn't know. And then I had... Two people,

01:10:46.550 --> 01:10:48.710
well, at that time, two people tried to make

01:10:48.710 --> 01:10:51.630
me kill them. Two suicide by cop attempts. I

01:10:51.630 --> 01:10:53.729
didn't actually shoot either of them, but those

01:10:53.729 --> 01:10:56.289
both really rocked my world. So if I had to pick

01:10:56.289 --> 01:10:59.010
a couple of my big rocks in my backpack, those

01:10:59.010 --> 01:11:03.170
ones really hit me hard. And I just suffered

01:11:03.170 --> 01:11:05.770
from all these nightmares. That was my big thing.

01:11:05.869 --> 01:11:07.369
And then I suffered from what I would probably

01:11:07.369 --> 01:11:10.289
describe as alcoholism, trying to cope with the

01:11:10.289 --> 01:11:13.069
nightmares. And then every night I relived needing

01:11:13.069 --> 01:11:15.510
to shoot and kill people. And I so badly didn't

01:11:15.510 --> 01:11:18.029
want to. And what I learned from a book like

01:11:18.029 --> 01:11:20.689
The Body Keeps the Score, I wasn't remembering.

01:11:21.130 --> 01:11:24.010
I was reliving because your body is going through

01:11:24.010 --> 01:11:26.609
the same, you know, getting into brain science

01:11:26.609 --> 01:11:29.229
of you're actually, you know, re -experiencing

01:11:29.229 --> 01:11:31.050
those same feelings as though it's some of the

01:11:31.050 --> 01:11:32.770
worst moments of your life over and over again

01:11:32.770 --> 01:11:36.149
every night, which then led to the drinking to

01:11:36.149 --> 01:11:39.970
try and kind of cope with it. And then I also

01:11:39.970 --> 01:11:43.109
would say I had some kind of moral injuries.

01:11:43.869 --> 01:11:45.689
Like, I felt like I was kind of being screwed,

01:11:45.869 --> 01:11:50.489
lied to, deceived, let down by those that are

01:11:50.489 --> 01:11:52.470
supposed to support you. I didn't know what a

01:11:52.470 --> 01:11:55.409
moral injury was. I just knew I had a lot of

01:11:55.409 --> 01:11:58.470
anger about it, right? Of the, what do you mean

01:11:58.470 --> 01:12:00.189
you're lying to me? You're lying to me about

01:12:00.189 --> 01:12:02.829
the lies. Like, you know, and then six months

01:12:02.829 --> 01:12:04.930
later, you're lying saying I never said that.

01:12:05.449 --> 01:12:07.250
And what I learned, you really should get things

01:12:07.250 --> 01:12:09.909
in writing so that people can't do that. And

01:12:09.909 --> 01:12:11.949
I also learned how that's such a leadership failure.

01:12:12.510 --> 01:12:14.449
when we're afraid of conflict and we can't just

01:12:14.449 --> 01:12:16.449
say the truth even if this person doesn't like

01:12:16.449 --> 01:12:18.609
it we lie to them well eventually they're probably

01:12:18.609 --> 01:12:20.310
going to find out and it's going to get even

01:12:20.310 --> 01:12:23.550
harder and that's a little bit of where i got

01:12:23.550 --> 01:12:26.390
to and i still kept trying to work and everyone

01:12:26.390 --> 01:12:27.909
around me is telling me they're worried about

01:12:27.909 --> 01:12:29.689
me and people come and ask me if i'm suicidal

01:12:29.689 --> 01:12:33.430
and uh but i so badly with just the stigma i

01:12:33.430 --> 01:12:34.970
was worried that people would never trust me

01:12:35.689 --> 01:12:38.050
Uh, I was told basically I would have a PCSD.

01:12:38.069 --> 01:12:40.050
If anyone ever knew that you'd never be deployed

01:12:40.050 --> 01:12:42.250
again, you couldn't work frontline, you couldn't

01:12:42.250 --> 01:12:44.989
work or work. Uh, so tried to hide as best I

01:12:44.989 --> 01:12:47.630
could. And then eventually just ask for help.

01:12:47.789 --> 01:12:49.850
That was really hard. I went to our chief and

01:12:49.850 --> 01:12:53.890
I told him, I went to, um, the head of our, our,

01:12:54.109 --> 01:12:57.329
uh, emergency response team and same thing and

01:12:57.329 --> 01:12:59.590
fortunately i had two fantastic leaders and not

01:12:59.590 --> 01:13:01.149
just those two i had other ones in my chain of

01:13:01.149 --> 01:13:03.350
command great leaders who did a great job of

01:13:03.350 --> 01:13:05.590
helping me and a team that really supported me

01:13:05.590 --> 01:13:07.630
and that was a part of what helped me as i healed

01:13:07.630 --> 01:13:11.750
before we go into your kind of healing journey

01:13:11.750 --> 01:13:15.630
it's really interesting unpacking the psychology

01:13:15.630 --> 01:13:20.649
of death by cop one person told me that if someone

01:13:20.649 --> 01:13:23.649
is a devout Christian, for example, and suicide

01:13:23.649 --> 01:13:27.029
is perceived as a sin. It's almost viewed as

01:13:27.029 --> 01:13:30.609
a biblical loophole if you get a cop to shoot

01:13:30.609 --> 01:13:34.050
you instead. You've obviously taken a deep dive

01:13:34.050 --> 01:13:36.409
into this world. What are some of the other contributing

01:13:36.409 --> 01:13:40.029
factors of these people choosing a cop to do

01:13:40.029 --> 01:13:44.869
it rather than other means? We have such a powerful

01:13:44.869 --> 01:13:49.510
resistance to causing our own death. For anyone

01:13:49.510 --> 01:13:51.189
who wants to know more about suicide, there's

01:13:51.189 --> 01:13:53.710
a guy named Dr. Thomas Joyner. I write a little

01:13:53.710 --> 01:13:56.090
bit about his insights in my chapter on suicide.

01:13:56.430 --> 01:13:59.250
He's got two books I'd highly recommend, Myths

01:13:59.250 --> 01:14:02.210
About Suicide and Why People Die From Suicide.

01:14:02.550 --> 01:14:04.869
Now, he's one of the top researchers I can find.

01:14:05.390 --> 01:14:08.109
He lost his father to a suicide, which is where

01:14:08.109 --> 01:14:11.109
his passion comes from. So what he describes

01:14:11.109 --> 01:14:13.569
is basically, you're going to have two categories.

01:14:14.239 --> 01:14:15.859
People are not necessarily in the same category,

01:14:15.960 --> 01:14:18.359
but they might be in both. One is your desire

01:14:18.359 --> 01:14:22.039
for death. So that basically can come from massive

01:14:22.039 --> 01:14:24.979
emotional pain, psychological pain. I've seen

01:14:24.979 --> 01:14:26.840
you post things about feeling like a burden to

01:14:26.840 --> 01:14:29.840
others. So that's one of his big underlying factors,

01:14:29.960 --> 01:14:32.619
perceived burdensomeness. His other one is like

01:14:32.619 --> 01:14:35.319
thwarted belonging, which would be kind of like

01:14:35.319 --> 01:14:39.220
isolation. Often things like the breakup, relationship

01:14:39.220 --> 01:14:41.319
breakdown, right? That'd be one of the primary

01:14:41.319 --> 01:14:44.250
or a top risk factor. So you have that desire

01:14:44.250 --> 01:14:47.090
for death, perceived desire for death, which

01:14:47.090 --> 01:14:48.750
what you don't actually know is your brain's

01:14:48.750 --> 01:14:51.430
tricking you into thinking it wants to die. And

01:14:51.430 --> 01:14:53.930
I would describe this just my own mark hat on.

01:14:54.930 --> 01:14:57.390
I have a chapter on like the subconscious mind,

01:14:57.489 --> 01:15:00.649
intuition essentially. But when we're overwhelmed

01:15:00.649 --> 01:15:02.890
with pain, I think our subconscious is looking

01:15:02.890 --> 01:15:05.270
for an out to that pain. And that starts to kind

01:15:05.270 --> 01:15:08.039
of become seductive. where you have a constriction

01:15:08.039 --> 01:15:10.319
of thought. So you start thinking, okay, remove

01:15:10.319 --> 01:15:13.380
the suffering, remove the situation I can't change.

01:15:13.539 --> 01:15:16.159
And often when you can't, then this becomes this

01:15:16.159 --> 01:15:19.199
greater and greater perception of our only answer.

01:15:19.960 --> 01:15:22.739
But what we have is such an overwhelming resistance

01:15:22.739 --> 01:15:25.340
to killing ourselves that's ingrained in us.

01:15:25.399 --> 01:15:27.399
So even if you have all this pain and you feel

01:15:27.399 --> 01:15:30.979
this desire to die, you often are not able to

01:15:30.979 --> 01:15:35.140
enact lethal self -injury. And that's where people

01:15:35.140 --> 01:15:38.279
will do things in an attempt to have someone

01:15:38.279 --> 01:15:40.640
else cause their death. So I actually use the

01:15:40.640 --> 01:15:44.819
analogy in my book of a car crash. I've seen

01:15:44.819 --> 01:15:47.279
it where people die from a car crash by driving

01:15:47.279 --> 01:15:50.180
into oncoming traffic, stepping in front of traffic,

01:15:50.260 --> 01:15:52.600
things like that. And one day, it was only a

01:15:52.600 --> 01:15:54.380
couple of years ago, I interviewed a truck driver,

01:15:54.539 --> 01:15:56.899
commercial truck driver, and he had survived

01:15:56.899 --> 01:15:59.289
one of those fatal head -on crashes. Someone

01:15:59.289 --> 01:16:01.869
had died in a suicide, left a suicide note and

01:16:01.869 --> 01:16:04.529
tried driving into oncoming traffic. Spoke to

01:16:04.529 --> 01:16:06.489
the driver in the vehicle ahead of the truck.

01:16:06.770 --> 01:16:09.909
They actually managed to dodge that assailant

01:16:09.909 --> 01:16:12.390
who was coming in their lane. And obviously a

01:16:12.390 --> 01:16:14.670
giant semi truck was not able to get out of the

01:16:14.670 --> 01:16:18.489
way. Thankfully that driver survived. But just

01:16:18.489 --> 01:16:20.550
from speaking to them, like obviously was deeply

01:16:20.550 --> 01:16:23.210
traumatized from the experience. Like, you know,

01:16:23.210 --> 01:16:25.170
massive fire everywhere. It was an absolutely

01:16:25.170 --> 01:16:28.449
crazy scene. And I think that's a comparable.

01:16:29.000 --> 01:16:31.100
for suicide by cop. You have someone who feels

01:16:31.100 --> 01:16:34.079
all this pain, who's intending to die, but as

01:16:34.079 --> 01:16:36.220
they think about it and become seductive to them

01:16:36.220 --> 01:16:38.560
in a way, they're not able to do it. They're

01:16:38.560 --> 01:16:40.699
not able to overcome that powerful resistance.

01:16:41.119 --> 01:16:43.840
And then they seek other ways of doing it where

01:16:43.840 --> 01:16:46.239
I can provoke someone. So in my first suicide

01:16:46.239 --> 01:16:48.640
by cop attempt, someone pointed an imitation

01:16:48.640 --> 01:16:52.060
firearm at me. And they provoked a police response.

01:16:52.199 --> 01:16:54.579
They purposely had us come. He waited for 30

01:16:54.579 --> 01:16:56.720
minutes laying in a bed. Just sitting there with

01:16:56.720 --> 01:16:58.619
a gun next to him. Just not answering, not moving,

01:16:58.720 --> 01:17:00.859
nothing. And then sat up and pointed the gun

01:17:00.859 --> 01:17:04.079
directly at me. And I got out of the way. My

01:17:04.079 --> 01:17:07.100
brain screamed, shoot or move. And I moved. I

01:17:07.100 --> 01:17:08.859
wasn't ready for this. Back to this whole lethal

01:17:08.859 --> 01:17:11.279
force psychology. And I couldn't believe I didn't

01:17:11.279 --> 01:17:13.659
hear gunshots. We had eight cops all around this

01:17:13.659 --> 01:17:17.060
guy. No one shot him. And someone, my cover,

01:17:17.279 --> 01:17:20.619
less lethal taser operator, went on the radio

01:17:20.619 --> 01:17:23.119
and said, he just pointed a gun at us. And then

01:17:23.119 --> 01:17:24.819
I went, this guy's pointing a gun at the police.

01:17:24.859 --> 01:17:26.819
I have to shoot him. So I came back up with my

01:17:26.819 --> 01:17:29.079
gun and he now dropped it. Like we're talking

01:17:29.079 --> 01:17:32.159
within a few seconds. I couldn't understand what's

01:17:32.159 --> 01:17:34.340
going on here. And I can now explain it so much

01:17:34.340 --> 01:17:37.659
better because what will often happen is your

01:17:37.659 --> 01:17:40.220
self -preservation instinct will kick in right

01:17:40.220 --> 01:17:44.399
after you try and die. And I cite Kevin Hines.

01:17:44.720 --> 01:17:47.359
He jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge trying to

01:17:47.359 --> 01:17:49.800
die. And he's now a big suicide prevention advocate.

01:17:50.000 --> 01:17:51.460
I'm guessing you know who he is. I could see

01:17:51.460 --> 01:17:53.789
you kind of nodding there. And he talks about

01:17:53.789 --> 01:17:55.189
wanting to die, wanting to die. His hands are

01:17:55.189 --> 01:17:56.810
on the railing. And as soon as he lets go of

01:17:56.810 --> 01:17:59.470
the railing, all he wants to do is live. And

01:17:59.470 --> 01:18:02.229
I think that's a similar experience to what many

01:18:02.229 --> 01:18:04.989
people would experience with thoughts of suicide.

01:18:05.069 --> 01:18:06.770
They think they want to die. And then as soon

01:18:06.770 --> 01:18:09.350
as they start to enact that death or start to

01:18:09.350 --> 01:18:13.229
overcome that resistance, then they realize there's

01:18:13.229 --> 01:18:15.369
another girl I cite in my book named Emma Benoit.

01:18:15.649 --> 01:18:17.710
And she shot herself. And after thinking she

01:18:17.710 --> 01:18:19.829
wants to die, she shoots herself and right away,

01:18:19.890 --> 01:18:21.170
oh my God, what have I done? What have I done?

01:18:21.210 --> 01:18:23.819
She doesn't want to die. And so it's actually

01:18:23.819 --> 01:18:25.899
the same for my follow -up suicide by cop attempts.

01:18:26.699 --> 01:18:28.939
The second one, the guy actually had a gun in

01:18:28.939 --> 01:18:31.439
his waistband. Again, an imitation gun. Came

01:18:31.439 --> 01:18:34.960
out, prompts a police response, comes in as more

01:18:34.960 --> 01:18:37.539
of like a hostage call, but eventually comes

01:18:37.539 --> 01:18:40.039
out and it's just me there. Kind of a long story.

01:18:40.140 --> 01:18:42.560
I won't get into too much details, but lifts

01:18:42.560 --> 01:18:44.060
up his shirt. I can see the gun. He's reaching

01:18:44.060 --> 01:18:46.520
for it. I take my gun off safe and he takes the

01:18:46.520 --> 01:18:48.659
gun and throws it on the ground. And I, same

01:18:48.659 --> 01:18:50.000
thing. He didn't point at me that time, but I

01:18:50.000 --> 01:18:52.300
couldn't wrap my head around. You're trying to

01:18:52.300 --> 01:18:53.960
die, but then you have this overwhelming urge

01:18:53.960 --> 01:18:57.060
to live after, right? So that's where I've read

01:18:57.060 --> 01:18:58.420
some of these things have helped me so much to

01:18:58.420 --> 01:19:01.680
understand it. You have a lot of deep knowledge

01:19:01.680 --> 01:19:03.359
from speaking to a lot of people on this topic.

01:19:03.520 --> 01:19:05.840
What do you think, James? Well, it's funny because

01:19:05.840 --> 01:19:08.119
I quote Kevin and Emma all the time. They've

01:19:08.119 --> 01:19:11.720
both been on the show separately. And that is

01:19:11.720 --> 01:19:16.039
exactly their responses that you've worded because

01:19:16.039 --> 01:19:19.689
I think they've only had... Those two, and then

01:19:19.689 --> 01:19:21.609
I think there may be someone else I'm forgetting

01:19:21.609 --> 01:19:23.430
that actually went through with their suicide

01:19:23.430 --> 01:19:27.270
attempt and survived. So your eyewitness account

01:19:27.270 --> 01:19:31.229
is obviously a few and far between. But that

01:19:31.229 --> 01:19:34.390
really underlines what I talk about all the time.

01:19:34.510 --> 01:19:37.890
And this is a statement of compassion and empathy,

01:19:37.949 --> 01:19:40.210
not judgment. The people that are in crisis,

01:19:40.289 --> 01:19:43.489
their brain is miswired. Through this perfect

01:19:43.489 --> 01:19:45.789
storm. And you hit some of them. Everything from

01:19:45.789 --> 01:19:48.789
unaddressed childhood trauma. To the trauma that

01:19:48.789 --> 01:19:51.569
we see in our professions. To relationship issues.

01:19:51.670 --> 01:19:54.369
Financial issues. The sleep deprivation from

01:19:54.369 --> 01:19:56.869
a shift. Sleep deprivation from alcohol. All

01:19:56.869 --> 01:20:00.050
these things. The perfect, perfect storm. The

01:20:00.050 --> 01:20:03.310
brain's reality becomes distorted. And A, of

01:20:03.310 --> 01:20:05.250
course, the most obvious one is people that are

01:20:05.250 --> 01:20:07.449
suffering. They want the pain to end. But the

01:20:07.449 --> 01:20:10.539
one that I hear over and over again is. If I

01:20:10.539 --> 01:20:14.000
just remove myself, I will take away the pain

01:20:14.000 --> 01:20:16.939
from my family, which makes no sense to a healthy

01:20:16.939 --> 01:20:20.119
brain. And so what is so sad is when you hear

01:20:20.119 --> 01:20:23.840
Kevin or Emma talking about the moment after,

01:20:23.920 --> 01:20:28.840
that's when that self -preservation element finally

01:20:28.840 --> 01:20:33.229
comes through again. And I'm speaking to Elizabeth

01:20:33.229 --> 01:20:35.130
Pohl, who's a police officer that started doing

01:20:35.130 --> 01:20:38.890
forensics or autopsies, informational autopsies

01:20:38.890 --> 01:20:42.810
on police suicides. Every single suicide that

01:20:42.810 --> 01:20:45.170
she had, alcohol had been consumed within 12

01:20:45.170 --> 01:20:48.369
hours. So you've got this distorted brain. Then

01:20:48.369 --> 01:20:52.350
you take this drug that we know distorts reality,

01:20:52.750 --> 01:20:55.689
because as I say, tongue in cheek, many of us

01:20:55.689 --> 01:20:57.850
listening have probably been with someone of

01:20:57.850 --> 01:20:59.590
the same or opposite sex, whatever you're into.

01:21:00.380 --> 01:21:03.680
on alcohol and then had that kind of next morning

01:21:03.680 --> 01:21:05.720
moment where you're like, ah, so your judgment

01:21:05.720 --> 01:21:10.340
was distorted. So it's so powerful to hear what

01:21:10.340 --> 01:21:12.340
you've said, what Kevin talks about, what Emma

01:21:12.340 --> 01:21:15.279
talks about, because it underlines that people

01:21:15.279 --> 01:21:18.760
do want to live. But that devil in their voice

01:21:18.760 --> 01:21:21.720
has been given so much power by that miswiring

01:21:21.720 --> 01:21:24.500
and then amplified by alcohol in many, many cases

01:21:24.500 --> 01:21:28.539
that it wins. And how many people right when

01:21:28.539 --> 01:21:32.119
that hammer fell or they left the bridge or they

01:21:32.119 --> 01:21:34.520
stepped out in front of that car, immediately

01:21:34.520 --> 01:21:38.300
shot back to, I don't want to do this. And so

01:21:38.300 --> 01:21:42.680
to hear this in your two stories, traumatic as

01:21:42.680 --> 01:21:47.220
it was, but what a beautiful story on both events.

01:21:47.319 --> 01:21:50.300
Even though it left you with moral injury, there's

01:21:50.300 --> 01:21:53.039
two people that were given a second chance that

01:21:53.039 --> 01:21:55.220
if you'd made a different decision, wouldn't

01:21:55.220 --> 01:21:59.479
have been. Yeah, well, there's a third story

01:21:59.479 --> 01:22:02.560
I share in my book, and it's Dakota Meyer, who's

01:22:02.560 --> 01:22:04.800
like a Medal of Honor winner from the military.

01:22:05.140 --> 01:22:06.800
And he tells a story of putting a gun to his

01:22:06.800 --> 01:22:08.619
head and pulling the trigger. And now firearms

01:22:08.619 --> 01:22:12.359
is such a lethal means of suicide. And I think

01:22:12.359 --> 01:22:14.579
it's one of the issues around police suicide

01:22:14.579 --> 01:22:17.260
is our access to firearms is one of the challenges

01:22:17.260 --> 01:22:20.619
that we face. Dakota Meyer is still alive many

01:22:20.619 --> 01:22:22.880
years later. All he would have had to do, he

01:22:22.880 --> 01:22:25.899
had a loaded magazine. He just didn't have a

01:22:25.899 --> 01:22:28.260
round in the chamber. And someone with lots of

01:22:28.260 --> 01:22:30.159
firearms expertise and with what we know of firearms,

01:22:30.279 --> 01:22:32.359
that is within a couple seconds you rack around

01:22:32.359 --> 01:22:35.119
and if you want to die from suicide, you're dead.

01:22:35.560 --> 01:22:38.159
Well, he didn't. Because I think that to me is

01:22:38.159 --> 01:22:41.359
that it shows that what so often happens, people

01:22:41.359 --> 01:22:43.779
don't know until that exact moment when they

01:22:43.779 --> 01:22:45.100
think they've now caused their death and then

01:22:45.100 --> 01:22:47.479
they realize it. And tragically, what I suspect

01:22:47.479 --> 01:22:49.279
happens for all these people dying from suicide

01:22:49.279 --> 01:22:51.810
is they experience that same thing. They attempt

01:22:51.810 --> 01:22:53.609
to die from suicide, then they realize they don't

01:22:53.609 --> 01:22:55.590
want to die. And sadly, so many of them do die,

01:22:55.689 --> 01:22:57.949
which again, is part of where my passion comes

01:22:57.949 --> 01:23:00.569
around this topic. Again, having lost a loved

01:23:00.569 --> 01:23:03.369
one to suicide. One of the things I've seen Kevin

01:23:03.369 --> 01:23:06.289
talk about, when he asked, I saw him be asked,

01:23:06.430 --> 01:23:08.020
what would you tell someone? you know, what would

01:23:08.020 --> 01:23:09.779
you say to someone? He talked about just breathe.

01:23:10.039 --> 01:23:13.159
And he talked about long, slow exhales. And really

01:23:13.159 --> 01:23:15.640
what I think he's trying to do is teach you to

01:23:15.640 --> 01:23:18.260
regulate your physiology, teach you to help bring

01:23:18.260 --> 01:23:20.319
yourself right back, right from that edge moment

01:23:20.319 --> 01:23:23.560
to activate your prefrontal cortex, to slow down

01:23:23.560 --> 01:23:25.659
your breathing, which will impact your physiology.

01:23:26.199 --> 01:23:28.180
And again, I'm not saying the answer is that

01:23:28.180 --> 01:23:30.039
of just like waiting to the crisis moment. I

01:23:30.039 --> 01:23:33.239
really do hope it's earlier education. I'd also

01:23:33.239 --> 01:23:35.539
like to come back to that Dr. Thomas Joyner.

01:23:35.840 --> 01:23:38.279
and his model and i think it really connects

01:23:38.279 --> 01:23:40.439
with your audience now i'm sure lots of audience

01:23:40.439 --> 01:23:43.260
are first responder and fire because one of the

01:23:43.260 --> 01:23:44.920
things he talks about is that desire for death

01:23:44.920 --> 01:23:47.619
desire for suicide perceived desire for suicide

01:23:47.619 --> 01:23:53.500
um but he's also talking about acquired ability

01:23:53.500 --> 01:23:56.840
for lethal self -injury and he basically is explaining

01:23:56.840 --> 01:24:00.420
why those of us with military first responder

01:24:00.420 --> 01:24:04.930
fire police are at higher risk And it's because

01:24:04.930 --> 01:24:07.609
we have learned how to push past. We've learned

01:24:07.609 --> 01:24:11.710
how to push past danger, hardship, pain, fear

01:24:11.710 --> 01:24:14.649
that, you know, he basically says we have this

01:24:14.649 --> 01:24:18.090
courage to go do hard things, to risk ourselves

01:24:18.090 --> 01:24:21.729
physically, to experience pain. And we have often

01:24:21.729 --> 01:24:25.390
an exposure to death. And that's a part of essentially

01:24:25.390 --> 01:24:28.550
it's like building up what becomes an acquired

01:24:28.550 --> 01:24:31.510
ability for lethal self -injury. And I can say

01:24:31.510 --> 01:24:33.979
there's a study of police officers. It was 4

01:24:33.979 --> 01:24:37.300
.4 million decedents from Dr. John Violante.

01:24:37.619 --> 01:24:41.079
And it found police officers had a 54 % higher

01:24:41.079 --> 01:24:43.880
rate of suicide. I don't know the numbers specifically

01:24:43.880 --> 01:24:46.260
for fire. I'm guessing you probably know lots

01:24:46.260 --> 01:24:48.100
because you know so much about this topic, James.

01:24:48.479 --> 01:24:50.960
But I think we need to start teaching these kind

01:24:50.960 --> 01:24:53.659
of things at the academy level. And if I can

01:24:53.659 --> 01:24:55.500
draw in one more person, which is John Violante,

01:24:55.500 --> 01:24:57.659
I just referenced him. He's got a book called

01:24:57.659 --> 01:25:00.439
Police Suicide Epidemic in Blue. One of the things

01:25:00.439 --> 01:25:02.560
he says in there. is we need to start teaching

01:25:02.560 --> 01:25:05.680
this at a recruit cadet level before you're impacted

01:25:05.680 --> 01:25:08.279
by the culture before you show up to the firehouse

01:25:08.279 --> 01:25:10.420
or the police station and you're impacted by

01:25:10.420 --> 01:25:12.920
the cynicism and the stigma and some of the things

01:25:12.920 --> 01:25:15.140
that are there in that culture we need to start

01:25:15.140 --> 01:25:16.439
teaching people about these problems ahead of

01:25:16.439 --> 01:25:18.779
time and then we also need to wrap it around

01:25:18.779 --> 01:25:22.699
in a culture that is informed and proactive and

01:25:22.699 --> 01:25:25.359
supportive about it because we actually can make

01:25:25.359 --> 01:25:28.180
cultural changes to make it you know, more signs

01:25:28.180 --> 01:25:30.979
that it's okay to get help, to process pain early,

01:25:31.159 --> 01:25:33.659
to not just wait for the last minute crisis line.

01:25:34.060 --> 01:25:35.640
And I'm not saying we shouldn't have something

01:25:35.640 --> 01:25:38.420
for like the last minute type situations, but

01:25:38.420 --> 01:25:40.439
just to invest so much more in the downstream,

01:25:40.659 --> 01:25:42.699
like even to bring it all back to what we talked

01:25:42.699 --> 01:25:44.159
about, like homelessness and drug addiction,

01:25:44.319 --> 01:25:46.699
it's pay me now or pay me later. And unfortunately

01:25:46.699 --> 01:25:49.100
for so long, we haven't invested in those things.

01:25:49.239 --> 01:25:51.659
And we've seen this ongoing problem where we

01:25:51.659 --> 01:25:53.380
go, I don't know why it keeps happening. Well,

01:25:53.439 --> 01:25:55.619
until we start changing things within our culture,

01:25:55.680 --> 01:25:58.680
within our training. You know, we need to. Let's

01:25:58.680 --> 01:26:00.079
just leave it that way. What are your thoughts,

01:26:00.199 --> 01:26:02.800
James? Well, it's interesting because first going

01:26:02.800 --> 01:26:07.880
back to what you said about courage. This is,

01:26:07.899 --> 01:26:10.380
again, I think why we see a higher, you know,

01:26:10.380 --> 01:26:12.239
such a high level of suicide. And I know some

01:26:12.239 --> 01:26:14.760
people say, oh, it's the same as the average

01:26:14.760 --> 01:26:17.539
person. I disagree. I think that the problem

01:26:17.539 --> 01:26:19.300
is you're looking at the wrong statistics. And

01:26:19.300 --> 01:26:21.720
I've talked about this a lot recently. The official

01:26:21.720 --> 01:26:25.550
statistics in our profession, woefully. under

01:26:25.550 --> 01:26:28.329
-report how many of us actually are lost to overdose

01:26:28.329 --> 01:26:31.869
and suicide. I did a slide on the presentation

01:26:31.869 --> 01:26:34.310
I did the other day on the 24 -72 work week,

01:26:34.409 --> 01:26:39.649
and supposedly we lost 74 firefighters in 2024.

01:26:40.430 --> 01:26:42.710
Well, I can think of 74 people we lost in the

01:26:42.710 --> 01:26:44.789
state of Florida. Now we're talking about that

01:26:44.789 --> 01:26:47.270
who are wearing the uniform. That's not even

01:26:47.270 --> 01:26:50.369
bringing in the massively under -reported group,

01:26:50.430 --> 01:26:55.359
which is the retirees. I truly believe that we

01:26:55.359 --> 01:26:58.180
absolutely have a much higher, and for the reasons

01:26:58.180 --> 01:27:00.100
that you're talking about. Firstly, for your

01:27:00.100 --> 01:27:02.500
profession, you have the means of suicide strapped

01:27:02.500 --> 01:27:05.079
to your hip, which certainly doesn't help. But

01:27:05.079 --> 01:27:07.920
as I've said, firstly, this is a group of people

01:27:07.920 --> 01:27:11.840
that said, if needed, I will die trying to rescue

01:27:11.840 --> 01:27:14.119
someone, a complete stranger in my community.

01:27:14.399 --> 01:27:17.770
So now you go back to that distorted mind. I

01:27:17.770 --> 01:27:19.470
said this many, many times on here, but I think

01:27:19.470 --> 01:27:21.770
it needs to be said. When we were young, people

01:27:21.770 --> 01:27:24.449
said suicide was cowardly and selfish. And how

01:27:24.449 --> 01:27:27.130
could you think of your kids? Well, now take

01:27:27.130 --> 01:27:30.350
that same person who's courageous, who's basically

01:27:30.350 --> 01:27:33.430
prepared to die for strangers. And now you've

01:27:33.430 --> 01:27:36.090
distorted their mind to where they truly believe

01:27:36.090 --> 01:27:39.069
that their kids are scared of them, that they'd

01:27:39.069 --> 01:27:41.050
be better off without them, that they're the

01:27:41.050 --> 01:27:42.989
reason for their wife's pain or their husband's

01:27:42.989 --> 01:27:45.449
pain or whoever it is. And if they just remove

01:27:45.449 --> 01:27:49.420
themselves. everyone will be happier that's where

01:27:49.420 --> 01:27:52.500
the courage comes in it's tragic because it's

01:27:52.500 --> 01:27:55.340
distorted but if you think about it at that moment

01:27:55.340 --> 01:27:58.319
my opinion is that at that moment they were terrified

01:27:58.319 --> 01:28:01.659
and it was a courageous and selfless act through

01:28:01.659 --> 01:28:04.760
a distorted mind now the reality of course is

01:28:04.760 --> 01:28:06.840
it passes the pain on to everyone that's left

01:28:06.840 --> 01:28:09.479
and you know now they have trauma too but when

01:28:09.479 --> 01:28:12.279
we understand it and we stop casting this guilt

01:28:12.279 --> 01:28:14.399
and shame that they were a coward they were selfish

01:28:15.260 --> 01:28:17.579
and we actually listen to the experts and the

01:28:17.579 --> 01:28:20.619
lived experience of survivors, you realize that

01:28:20.619 --> 01:28:23.220
that is the case. And when you have a courageous

01:28:23.220 --> 01:28:25.439
group of men and women that put on a uniform,

01:28:25.640 --> 01:28:28.560
then, of course, you've got all the ingredients,

01:28:28.640 --> 01:28:31.260
God forbid, if their mind starts lying to them

01:28:31.260 --> 01:28:36.119
for their own self -harm as well. Yeah, I'm sure

01:28:36.119 --> 01:28:39.340
you've heard so many examples. from your you

01:28:39.340 --> 01:28:41.720
know you have so much anecdotal wisdom from just

01:28:41.720 --> 01:28:43.739
speaking to people and then and then seeing those

01:28:43.739 --> 01:28:45.880
patterns and i can find when i speak with you

01:28:45.880 --> 01:28:48.600
about this i often recognize what you share from

01:28:48.600 --> 01:28:50.420
that lines up with some of the things i've read

01:28:50.420 --> 01:28:52.680
from different experts and academics and books

01:28:52.680 --> 01:28:55.000
but i want to draw an example of what you're

01:28:55.000 --> 01:28:57.460
saying like that element of perceived burdensomeness

01:28:57.460 --> 01:29:00.020
and why someone thinks they're doing good even

01:29:00.020 --> 01:29:02.119
though they're not it's a perceived burdensomeness

01:29:02.119 --> 01:29:03.819
it's not true you're not truly a burden your

01:29:03.819 --> 01:29:05.779
family's truly not better i totally want to acknowledge

01:29:05.779 --> 01:29:10.220
that But I have someone I know, a coworker, and

01:29:10.220 --> 01:29:11.819
he went on a podcast, heard him speak about it.

01:29:12.079 --> 01:29:14.659
And he talked about his son saying to him, why

01:29:14.659 --> 01:29:17.560
do you hate me? Now think about that for a minute.

01:29:17.680 --> 01:29:19.899
So what you have is someone who loves their family,

01:29:20.020 --> 01:29:22.300
who goes to work as a police officer to keep

01:29:22.300 --> 01:29:24.359
people safe, and then is traumatized through

01:29:24.359 --> 01:29:27.899
work. Injury, loss of identity, lots of things

01:29:27.899 --> 01:29:30.579
went wrong in that person's world. And then what

01:29:30.579 --> 01:29:33.159
happens? Now you go home and you're yelling at

01:29:33.159 --> 01:29:35.560
your kids, and maybe you're drinking too much.

01:29:36.060 --> 01:29:38.600
There's all the things that are now piling on

01:29:38.600 --> 01:29:41.079
that now that little voice in your head saying,

01:29:41.239 --> 01:29:43.739
see, they're better off without you. And I don't

01:29:43.739 --> 01:29:45.859
think it's often a one -off thing. I think it's

01:29:45.859 --> 01:29:48.600
this accumulation as you go further and further

01:29:48.600 --> 01:29:51.479
down that road and you have no answer. And the

01:29:51.479 --> 01:29:55.399
pain feels so unbearable and your brain is so

01:29:55.399 --> 01:29:58.140
badly seeking an out. Because I think for those

01:29:58.140 --> 01:29:59.880
of us that aren't there and that have never been

01:29:59.880 --> 01:30:02.819
in any kind of suicidal ideation, it's hard to

01:30:02.819 --> 01:30:04.600
wrap our heads around how someone could perceive

01:30:04.600 --> 01:30:07.390
that. how someone could actually think what do

01:30:07.390 --> 01:30:09.229
you mean you think your family's better off without

01:30:09.229 --> 01:30:12.510
you right it's like it's because of moments like

01:30:12.510 --> 01:30:14.930
that i talked to someone else who was a police

01:30:14.930 --> 01:30:17.069
officer and they had a moment like that where

01:30:17.069 --> 01:30:18.989
they're i can't remember what was said exactly

01:30:18.989 --> 01:30:20.430
but a quote kind of like that from one of their

01:30:20.430 --> 01:30:23.170
kids of like you know why does dad hate me and

01:30:23.170 --> 01:30:25.470
they quit policing that was their answer it was

01:30:25.470 --> 01:30:27.390
like i can't tolerate that my kid thinks that

01:30:27.390 --> 01:30:29.750
so i'm gonna leave and i'm gonna go do something

01:30:29.750 --> 01:30:32.550
else and that's certainly a much better option

01:30:32.550 --> 01:30:35.130
than suicide like you know that's the We got

01:30:35.130 --> 01:30:37.350
to normalize other decisions, but we also got

01:30:37.350 --> 01:30:40.869
to create that cultural impact where what can

01:30:40.869 --> 01:30:43.069
we do to make it safe to talk about? And what

01:30:43.069 --> 01:30:44.689
do we do with someone who's experienced this?

01:30:44.810 --> 01:30:48.289
And I'll say like, I have had suicidal ideation.

01:30:48.649 --> 01:30:51.909
So I didn't even recognize that as suicidal thoughts.

01:30:52.149 --> 01:30:54.789
But like for me, mine was like always envisioning

01:30:54.789 --> 01:30:57.449
driving into oncoming traffic over a certain

01:30:57.449 --> 01:30:59.350
period of my life when I went through my hardest

01:30:59.350 --> 01:31:03.090
time. That was so common for me. And it was actually

01:31:03.090 --> 01:31:05.010
later. It wasn't the part I write about in my

01:31:05.010 --> 01:31:07.989
book. Certainly earlier on is when I was off

01:31:07.989 --> 01:31:09.890
work on stress leave. I kept working throughout

01:31:09.890 --> 01:31:12.609
this whole period. I had a young son. I was married,

01:31:12.750 --> 01:31:15.350
you know, but I never told a soul. I wrote a

01:31:15.350 --> 01:31:18.050
chapter about suicide, yet I experienced that

01:31:18.050 --> 01:31:21.510
afterward. And I still never said a word, never

01:31:21.510 --> 01:31:23.189
asked for help about it, never did anything.

01:31:23.510 --> 01:31:25.949
So this idea that, well, if only people would

01:31:25.949 --> 01:31:28.050
ask for help and access the resources that are

01:31:28.050 --> 01:31:30.729
there, I think we're looking at the problem wrong

01:31:30.729 --> 01:31:33.069
or incorrectly. And we need to instead look at

01:31:33.069 --> 01:31:35.609
the culture. How do we make it safe to be human?

01:31:35.789 --> 01:31:38.670
How do we build connection? How do we build in

01:31:38.670 --> 01:31:42.289
healthy habits so that the earlier intervention

01:31:42.289 --> 01:31:45.710
and less people reaching that point of severe

01:31:45.710 --> 01:31:48.899
suicidal ideation? You just reminded me when

01:31:48.899 --> 01:31:50.460
you're talking about oncoming traffic. The other

01:31:50.460 --> 01:31:52.300
person I had who survived their own attempt was

01:31:52.300 --> 01:31:54.600
Angela Lee, MMA fighter. I think she was one

01:31:54.600 --> 01:31:59.239
champion, one FC champion. And then she ends

01:31:59.239 --> 01:32:01.560
up losing her younger sister to suicide. And

01:32:01.560 --> 01:32:04.039
Angela has become this huge voice now in the

01:32:04.039 --> 01:32:06.560
mixed martial arts world when it comes to mental

01:32:06.560 --> 01:32:08.279
health, especially in a women's mental health,

01:32:08.359 --> 01:32:12.000
because it's a quieter voice. But, yeah, I mean,

01:32:12.020 --> 01:32:14.020
I think going back to what you were saying as

01:32:14.020 --> 01:32:16.659
far as being proactive, and you talk about this

01:32:16.659 --> 01:32:18.579
in your book, I mean, all these different pillars

01:32:18.579 --> 01:32:20.840
that are contributing to it. You know, the reason

01:32:20.840 --> 01:32:23.840
why I harp on the work week, you know, the progressive

01:32:23.840 --> 01:32:26.319
work week and full staffing in first responder

01:32:26.319 --> 01:32:29.039
professions is the impact of sleep deprivation.

01:32:29.060 --> 01:32:31.880
That is an actionable element that we know contributes

01:32:31.880 --> 01:32:35.460
to all things mental ill health that we can address.

01:32:35.979 --> 01:32:38.659
Another one, as you alluded to, at the front

01:32:38.659 --> 01:32:41.899
door. education on all these elements, but also

01:32:41.899 --> 01:32:44.840
understanding that if you put on a uniform, there's

01:32:44.840 --> 01:32:46.819
a good chance that you had some challenges when

01:32:46.819 --> 01:32:50.600
you were younger. And so if addressed, that becomes

01:32:50.600 --> 01:32:53.359
resilience, that becomes a strength in uniform,

01:32:53.560 --> 01:32:57.520
hands down. And I love the hope of post -traumatic

01:32:57.520 --> 01:33:01.260
growth. rather than the doom and gloom of a ptsd

01:33:01.260 --> 01:33:03.579
diagnosis you know we need to talk about you

01:33:03.579 --> 01:33:04.899
know you wouldn't break your leg and just walk

01:33:04.899 --> 01:33:07.420
around you know giving talks on how your femur

01:33:07.420 --> 01:33:09.020
sticking out your leg you get your fucking leg

01:33:09.020 --> 01:33:12.520
fixed you know it's no different so but understanding

01:33:12.520 --> 01:33:14.619
at the front door that these young people were

01:33:14.619 --> 01:33:18.539
driven to serve for a reason and be proud of

01:33:18.539 --> 01:33:20.600
that be like look you are gonna have some shit

01:33:20.600 --> 01:33:23.760
going on it is okay because that It's what made

01:33:23.760 --> 01:33:26.779
you step up, toe the line when everyone else

01:33:26.779 --> 01:33:29.359
is like, no, I'm good. I'll just go and do the

01:33:29.359 --> 01:33:32.340
other thing in my community. So be proud of that,

01:33:32.380 --> 01:33:34.699
but let's be aware of it and let's start working

01:33:34.699 --> 01:33:37.439
through it. So I've been a big proponent of why

01:33:37.439 --> 01:33:41.479
not do counseling from day one? You do PT, why

01:33:41.479 --> 01:33:43.859
not have X amount of counseling sessions in your

01:33:43.859 --> 01:33:47.420
rookie year and then the tune -ups there on in?

01:33:47.979 --> 01:33:50.819
Because A, you've normalized that conversation

01:33:50.819 --> 01:33:53.640
at the front door. You've created a strong relationship

01:33:53.640 --> 01:33:57.000
with the mental health counselor. And either

01:33:57.000 --> 01:33:59.380
A, someone had a Disney -like childhood and they

01:33:59.380 --> 01:34:01.119
end up just having great conversation with the

01:34:01.119 --> 01:34:03.939
counselor. Or more likely, someone's going to

01:34:03.939 --> 01:34:06.060
start unpacking some things that needed to be

01:34:06.060 --> 01:34:08.279
unpacked. And that's going to serve them well

01:34:08.279 --> 01:34:10.840
and reinforce that foundation rather than further

01:34:10.840 --> 01:34:15.869
damage it. Yeah, so I would describe, you know,

01:34:15.909 --> 01:34:17.529
what you're saying is like a systemic level,

01:34:17.670 --> 01:34:20.710
you know, improvement. And my old agency actually

01:34:20.710 --> 01:34:24.689
was very progressive. And the previous chief,

01:34:24.710 --> 01:34:26.289
the chief while I was there, his name is Neil

01:34:26.289 --> 01:34:29.390
DeBoard. He actually wrote one of the recommendations

01:34:29.390 --> 01:34:32.090
on the back of my book. But I really look up

01:34:32.090 --> 01:34:34.810
to him as a leader and how he does things. So

01:34:34.810 --> 01:34:37.130
what they did is they made it normal. So when

01:34:37.130 --> 01:34:39.770
you're an applicant to Delta, they have a form

01:34:39.770 --> 01:34:42.680
and they say, Kate. who's your dentist, who's

01:34:42.680 --> 01:34:45.180
your doctor, and who's your psychologist. And

01:34:45.180 --> 01:34:47.880
then they also say, okay, we'd like to know how

01:34:47.880 --> 01:34:50.720
much we need to prepare for. Please tell us the

01:34:50.720 --> 01:34:52.739
frequency of use of which you're going to use

01:34:52.739 --> 01:34:54.640
these things we're going to be paying for. And

01:34:54.640 --> 01:34:57.300
what they're trying to do is just normalize it.

01:34:57.380 --> 01:34:59.279
You basically make it okay in our culture to

01:34:59.279 --> 01:35:02.460
say, not only is it okay, it's expected. And

01:35:02.460 --> 01:35:04.439
what I say, what you'd also want to do as your

01:35:04.439 --> 01:35:06.739
leaders, from your senior leaders, is you tell

01:35:06.739 --> 01:35:11.300
your frontline leaders. I am asking you to make

01:35:11.300 --> 01:35:13.239
an appointment with a psychologist once a month.

01:35:13.399 --> 01:35:16.319
And I'm asking you to say it at briefing that,

01:35:16.420 --> 01:35:19.539
Kate, you know, what you're trying to do is make

01:35:19.539 --> 01:35:22.020
it okay for all of your team to do it. I don't

01:35:22.020 --> 01:35:23.859
care if you actually need help. I don't care

01:35:23.859 --> 01:35:26.260
if you talk about the football game and the hockey

01:35:26.260 --> 01:35:28.720
game or whatever you want to do. What I'm actually

01:35:28.720 --> 01:35:31.180
asking you to do within the culture is give all

01:35:31.180 --> 01:35:33.560
your people permission to do this. and i would

01:35:33.560 --> 01:35:36.159
say from my own i did a master's degree in leadership

01:35:36.159 --> 01:35:38.579
and i studied police culture and police officer

01:35:38.579 --> 01:35:41.079
mental health and that was what i heard doing

01:35:41.079 --> 01:35:43.520
my interviews is people talking about the stigma

01:35:43.520 --> 01:35:46.699
they over half my participants said they wanted

01:35:46.699 --> 01:35:49.159
to be ordered to go and see a psychologist on

01:35:49.159 --> 01:35:51.619
a recurring basis and yet many of those same

01:35:51.619 --> 01:35:54.819
people describe many years of symptoms of trauma

01:35:54.819 --> 01:35:57.819
like i can't diagnose them but very extreme symptoms

01:35:57.819 --> 01:36:00.180
of trauma and yet they've never done it once

01:36:00.180 --> 01:36:04.100
so they're saying Order me to go. Cops don't

01:36:04.100 --> 01:36:05.800
want to be told to do anything. And yet they're

01:36:05.800 --> 01:36:08.159
literally saying, please order me to go. To translate

01:36:08.159 --> 01:36:10.680
what they're really saying, make it safe for

01:36:10.680 --> 01:36:13.180
me to go. Even though I can already go for free

01:36:13.180 --> 01:36:15.739
and no one needs to know, I don't feel safe doing

01:36:15.739 --> 01:36:17.539
it. I'm worried that I'm going to be perceived

01:36:17.539 --> 01:36:19.779
as crazy and a problem and someone's going to

01:36:19.779 --> 01:36:22.239
find out. And so what they're asking us to do

01:36:22.239 --> 01:36:25.310
is to de -stigmatize it. And that's a big challenge.

01:36:25.350 --> 01:36:26.869
How do you measure that? That's not a simple

01:36:26.869 --> 01:36:29.569
thing to do. But back to what you can do, that

01:36:29.569 --> 01:36:31.609
intake form, that what your expectations are

01:36:31.609 --> 01:36:33.489
from your leaders, make it so they can do it

01:36:33.489 --> 01:36:36.069
on duty. Can you go to physio on duty? Can you

01:36:36.069 --> 01:36:38.149
go to the doctor on duty? Again, I don't know

01:36:38.149 --> 01:36:39.770
about you guys for fire, but like as a police

01:36:39.770 --> 01:36:41.189
officer, depending where you work, that might

01:36:41.189 --> 01:36:43.649
be possible. Well, can you go to a psychologist

01:36:43.649 --> 01:36:46.069
on duty? Could you do a Zoom call or whatever?

01:36:46.229 --> 01:36:48.250
Like I would argue that you should be able to,

01:36:48.310 --> 01:36:51.390
and that back to the staffing levels, if we normalize

01:36:51.390 --> 01:36:53.250
those kinds of things. we'll have less people

01:36:53.250 --> 01:36:56.029
off work and unable to work. And we will have

01:36:56.029 --> 01:36:58.310
less of a long -term problem because we're back

01:36:58.310 --> 01:37:00.489
to investing in those problems in the short term.

01:37:01.449 --> 01:37:04.510
100%. Well, I want to go back to, you mentioned

01:37:04.510 --> 01:37:06.989
obviously that you had your own PTSD diagnosis

01:37:06.989 --> 01:37:11.210
at one point. When you reflect back now, where

01:37:11.210 --> 01:37:13.670
were some of the darkest places that you got

01:37:13.670 --> 01:37:16.409
to? And then talk to me about discovering your

01:37:16.409 --> 01:37:19.250
own toolbox. What were the accumulation of elements

01:37:19.250 --> 01:37:21.630
that you started using that work for you specifically?

01:37:23.150 --> 01:37:25.850
Sure. So my biggest factors, one was the nightmares.

01:37:26.170 --> 01:37:28.010
Like I didn't understand them and I knew they

01:37:28.010 --> 01:37:29.689
were coming every night and they were just so

01:37:29.689 --> 01:37:32.930
hard for me because I was re -experiencing the

01:37:32.930 --> 01:37:35.010
same feelings of some of the worst times of my

01:37:35.010 --> 01:37:39.930
life. A second one was rage. I remember one day

01:37:39.930 --> 01:37:42.369
someone didn't put a turn signal on and I screamed

01:37:42.369 --> 01:37:44.630
at them for like 30 seconds at the top of my

01:37:44.630 --> 01:37:46.710
lungs to the point like my throat couldn't stop

01:37:46.710 --> 01:37:49.210
hurting. And it wasn't about that turn signal,

01:37:49.250 --> 01:37:51.840
but you don't see it in the moment. And then

01:37:51.840 --> 01:37:54.380
ultimately had what I describe as panic attacks.

01:37:54.659 --> 01:37:56.199
I still don't know if that's what they were.

01:37:56.439 --> 01:37:58.680
I can tell you what happened. I went out to a

01:37:58.680 --> 01:38:00.960
restaurant. It's like a busy Denny's on a Saturday

01:38:00.960 --> 01:38:03.779
and crowded Vancouver restaurant. And we're just

01:38:03.779 --> 01:38:05.319
having a regular conversation. I couldn't tell

01:38:05.319 --> 01:38:07.180
you what about. And I just couldn't stop crying.

01:38:07.340 --> 01:38:09.659
Like I couldn't even speak. I couldn't catch

01:38:09.659 --> 01:38:12.039
my breath. I was trying to say things like what's

01:38:12.039 --> 01:38:13.739
happening and what's wrong with me. And I can't

01:38:13.739 --> 01:38:15.899
even say what. And eventually I have to just

01:38:15.899 --> 01:38:19.619
run out of. the restaurant, I ran out to my car

01:38:19.619 --> 01:38:21.539
and no idea what to do. I started working on

01:38:21.539 --> 01:38:24.100
my breathing. It's like, you just, you're not

01:38:24.100 --> 01:38:26.279
doing well. I had one of those again the following

01:38:26.279 --> 01:38:29.300
day. And I'd been working on our emergency response

01:38:29.300 --> 01:38:31.159
team that whole week before and that whole next

01:38:31.159 --> 01:38:33.899
week. I wasn't really ready for the next crazy

01:38:33.899 --> 01:38:37.020
call. Not at all. You know, but I was too, you

01:38:37.020 --> 01:38:39.520
know, unwilling to ask for the help that I needed.

01:38:39.979 --> 01:38:42.640
So sorry, that was the kind of symptoms. And

01:38:42.640 --> 01:38:43.920
what was the next part you asked for? Kind of

01:38:43.920 --> 01:38:45.359
what helped me? Is that? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:38:45.539 --> 01:38:46.880
And I think this is one of the things that's

01:38:46.880 --> 01:38:48.979
so powerful, too, is that everyone's toolbox

01:38:48.979 --> 01:38:51.600
is different. You know, some people talk therapy

01:38:51.600 --> 01:38:53.979
and psych meds might be the perfect match. You

01:38:53.979 --> 01:38:55.779
know, more often than not, there are other things

01:38:55.779 --> 01:38:58.340
that are needed. So what were the tools that

01:38:58.340 --> 01:39:02.939
started working for you specifically? Oh, wow.

01:39:03.520 --> 01:39:07.239
The number one thing I realized for me, and it's

01:39:07.239 --> 01:39:10.239
very universal, was to take action. Like just

01:39:10.239 --> 01:39:14.100
doing anything, doing something. So the biggest

01:39:14.100 --> 01:39:17.840
thing for that was journaling. I had someone

01:39:17.840 --> 01:39:19.880
I look at as a mentor and a peer and a friend

01:39:19.880 --> 01:39:23.079
who recommended it to help them. And I tried

01:39:23.079 --> 01:39:25.520
it. So I have about 40 pages of journaling about

01:39:25.520 --> 01:39:29.220
my time on stress leave. And I share that in

01:39:29.220 --> 01:39:31.680
my book. I share large portions of it. Just trying

01:39:31.680 --> 01:39:33.800
to destigmatize it. You know, that's what I learned

01:39:33.800 --> 01:39:36.579
we can do since then. I also sought professional

01:39:36.579 --> 01:39:39.380
help. I went and saw a psychologist. I remember

01:39:39.380 --> 01:39:41.960
I had gone a few years before and I thought of

01:39:41.960 --> 01:39:45.619
it like surgery. I went one time, took me three

01:39:45.619 --> 01:39:48.000
hours to drive there, drive home. And I went,

01:39:48.020 --> 01:39:50.319
I'm never doing that again. Nothing seems better.

01:39:50.920 --> 01:39:53.510
I didn't realize it's more like physio. It's

01:39:53.510 --> 01:39:56.149
the thing you go do and then you got to go work

01:39:56.149 --> 01:39:58.369
on it. It's not a surgery where you just show

01:39:58.369 --> 01:40:00.430
up and you're all fixed. It's now here's how

01:40:00.430 --> 01:40:02.149
someone helping you navigate your way through

01:40:02.149 --> 01:40:04.510
it. And then it's on you to go practice things.

01:40:04.609 --> 01:40:06.670
You got, you know, say one hour a week or one

01:40:06.670 --> 01:40:08.489
hour a month and you got the rest of your month

01:40:08.489 --> 01:40:11.229
or week to work on things. So for me, what did

01:40:11.229 --> 01:40:13.250
some of those look like? Like things like trying

01:40:13.250 --> 01:40:15.529
to control my physiology, trying to control my

01:40:15.529 --> 01:40:17.970
breathing. Honestly, one of the biggest ones

01:40:17.970 --> 01:40:21.449
was stop drinking. I had no idea how bad alcohol

01:40:21.449 --> 01:40:24.359
was for me. nor that I was coping through it.

01:40:24.439 --> 01:40:27.119
Like I'd become an alcoholic. I just didn't know

01:40:27.119 --> 01:40:29.939
it. And I've seen that in so many of my buddies.

01:40:30.539 --> 01:40:33.420
And usually they're having a hard time and they

01:40:33.420 --> 01:40:35.560
tell you about it and you ask, and where's your

01:40:35.560 --> 01:40:37.899
drinking at? And it's not in a good place because

01:40:37.899 --> 01:40:40.199
that's how they're coping. And so often we can't

01:40:40.199 --> 01:40:42.600
hear you got a drinking problem. But like I did,

01:40:42.640 --> 01:40:44.880
I woke up one day, it's like nine in the morning

01:40:44.880 --> 01:40:47.680
and I went, I need to quit drinking. And my next

01:40:47.680 --> 01:40:50.100
thought was, I can't. And then I'm like, okay,

01:40:50.119 --> 01:40:52.689
well, can you go an hour? And so that's what

01:40:52.689 --> 01:40:54.869
I did. I just, I'm going to go one hour. And

01:40:54.869 --> 01:40:56.970
that one hour turned into one day that I said,

01:40:56.989 --> 01:40:58.689
like, I literally wrote on my whiteboard on my

01:40:58.689 --> 01:41:01.890
fridge. I won't drink today. That turned into,

01:41:01.909 --> 01:41:03.670
I didn't drink yesterday. I won't drink today.

01:41:03.989 --> 01:41:05.949
That turned into a week because a month was too

01:41:05.949 --> 01:41:08.390
long, right? And a day was too long at first.

01:41:08.489 --> 01:41:10.270
And so I would encourage anyone, if you're struggling

01:41:10.270 --> 01:41:12.470
or you know someone who's struggling, start thinking

01:41:12.470 --> 01:41:14.489
of micro goals. It's what you do when things

01:41:14.489 --> 01:41:16.729
get really hard. If you want to go on, you know,

01:41:16.770 --> 01:41:19.069
Navy SEAL tryouts or SWAT tryouts, all that kind

01:41:19.069 --> 01:41:21.079
of stuff, it's going to get super hard. You don't

01:41:21.079 --> 01:41:23.199
need to worry about the rest of the week. You

01:41:23.199 --> 01:41:24.300
just need to worry about running to that next

01:41:24.300 --> 01:41:26.100
post. You need to worry about doing the push

01:41:26.100 --> 01:41:28.579
-up you're working on right now, not all those

01:41:28.579 --> 01:41:30.920
other things that's just too overwhelming. So

01:41:30.920 --> 01:41:32.680
eventually that not drinking for a week turned

01:41:32.680 --> 01:41:34.619
into not drinking for a month. And now I've got

01:41:34.619 --> 01:41:36.239
back to the point where I can have a social drink.

01:41:36.340 --> 01:41:39.579
It's fine. But I don't drink like I used to.

01:41:39.720 --> 01:41:42.039
I'm not having like, you know, I hit a point

01:41:42.039 --> 01:41:46.720
where I think I had 226 ounces of rum in a week.

01:41:47.279 --> 01:41:49.300
And I'm basically a non -drinker. So that was

01:41:49.300 --> 01:41:52.739
a lot of alcohol. Whereas now, I might go a month

01:41:52.739 --> 01:41:54.800
and not have a drink. But like, I don't know,

01:41:54.819 --> 01:41:56.300
maybe a week ago, my wife said, hey, let's have

01:41:56.300 --> 01:41:58.640
a drink. Sure. Sounds great. Hey, let's celebrate.

01:41:58.800 --> 01:42:01.699
Let's do this. Awesome. I'm in. But it's not

01:42:01.699 --> 01:42:04.239
a big part of my life anymore. And the reason

01:42:04.239 --> 01:42:06.619
is because my life got so much better. And that

01:42:06.619 --> 01:42:09.279
actually is what led to me. I yelled out in my

01:42:09.279 --> 01:42:11.199
kitchen one day. I was all alone, off work on

01:42:11.199 --> 01:42:13.539
stress leave. And as I've been learning, I'm

01:42:13.539 --> 01:42:15.640
getting better. I actually yelled out, why the

01:42:15.640 --> 01:42:18.640
fuck don't they teach us this? And I was so angry

01:42:18.640 --> 01:42:21.840
that I'd suffered for 10 years and I didn't need

01:42:21.840 --> 01:42:24.359
to. And then that's where my mission came from.

01:42:24.479 --> 01:42:26.500
And just seeing all my buddies around me and

01:42:26.500 --> 01:42:28.779
how many had suffered in their own ways. And

01:42:28.779 --> 01:42:30.939
I actually met with our head of training one

01:42:30.939 --> 01:42:33.079
day, someone in charge of training about a thousand

01:42:33.079 --> 01:42:37.760
cops a year. And the fourth psychologist. And

01:42:37.760 --> 01:42:40.340
I told them the chapter topics of my book, essentially.

01:42:40.520 --> 01:42:42.520
I said, we need to teach all these things. Stigma,

01:42:42.640 --> 01:42:45.000
emotional pain, suicide, organizational stress,

01:42:45.300 --> 01:42:48.180
moral injury, sleep science. And they listened,

01:42:48.239 --> 01:42:50.659
but they weren't going to change. You're turning

01:42:50.659 --> 01:42:53.680
the Titanic. We can't change. So again, they

01:42:53.680 --> 01:42:55.460
were nice. There's no disparagement of them.

01:42:55.720 --> 01:42:58.140
And I just said, I can't make you teach this,

01:42:58.239 --> 01:43:00.439
but you can't stop me. And I said it in my head.

01:43:00.479 --> 01:43:01.859
I didn't tell them. Again, I'm not trying to

01:43:01.859 --> 01:43:04.439
put them down. But I just decided I'm going to

01:43:04.439 --> 01:43:06.460
do what I can to start helping with this. Like

01:43:06.460 --> 01:43:08.800
I can't accept the current reality. So I'm going

01:43:08.800 --> 01:43:11.899
to do something. And I read there's an Ontario

01:43:11.899 --> 01:43:14.779
coroner's inquest into police suicide from nine

01:43:14.779 --> 01:43:17.260
suicides in 2018. They did the inquest in 2019.

01:43:18.090 --> 01:43:20.310
And that was one of the top recommendations was

01:43:20.310 --> 01:43:23.270
we need to reduce stigma, normalize mental health.

01:43:23.409 --> 01:43:25.310
And what I realized, the very first thing in

01:43:25.310 --> 01:43:27.010
my journaling is like, no one can ever know.

01:43:27.149 --> 01:43:29.210
Don't tell anyone. Because it was an email to

01:43:29.210 --> 01:43:31.630
my brother, right? My brother, not my real brother,

01:43:31.710 --> 01:43:34.609
but a brother on the team. And then I realized

01:43:34.609 --> 01:43:36.449
I had to do the opposite. The best way I could

01:43:36.449 --> 01:43:38.909
help people is to actually share, put that out

01:43:38.909 --> 01:43:41.789
to the world and normalize that. And since then,

01:43:41.810 --> 01:43:43.210
I've heard from so many people about how it's

01:43:43.210 --> 01:43:44.970
helped, whether it's a spouse, whether it's a

01:43:44.970 --> 01:43:48.140
first responder, and even just civilians. And

01:43:48.140 --> 01:43:49.760
because there is so much good information. And

01:43:49.760 --> 01:43:51.460
what I would love to see one day is not just

01:43:51.460 --> 01:43:53.560
that we teach it to first responders. This is

01:43:53.560 --> 01:43:54.659
the kind of stuff we need to teach in school.

01:43:55.140 --> 01:43:57.399
We need to teach about suicide and emotional

01:43:57.399 --> 01:43:59.779
pain and trauma. You want to make sure we don't

01:43:59.779 --> 01:44:02.100
have drug addicts? Then teach people to help

01:44:02.100 --> 01:44:05.760
themselves. So again, I appreciate what you're

01:44:05.760 --> 01:44:07.579
doing, James, with your books and your podcast,

01:44:07.760 --> 01:44:10.659
because you're an awesome advocate in the fire

01:44:10.659 --> 01:44:13.500
profession, especially. And my hope is to do

01:44:13.500 --> 01:44:15.479
something similar in our profession, like what

01:44:15.479 --> 01:44:17.560
you do about the sleep schedule for firefighters.

01:44:18.119 --> 01:44:20.680
Well, I just came off two days, two nights, you

01:44:20.680 --> 01:44:23.279
know, like, why are we still doing this? There's

01:44:23.279 --> 01:44:25.760
no worse schedule that we could find. What are

01:44:25.760 --> 01:44:27.859
we doing? And just trying to advocate, well,

01:44:27.899 --> 01:44:29.380
let's try something different. Let's be willing

01:44:29.380 --> 01:44:31.619
to risk failure. And let's try and make some

01:44:31.619 --> 01:44:35.119
positive change within our culture too. It's

01:44:35.119 --> 01:44:39.199
amazing how many phrases I hear now that really

01:44:39.199 --> 01:44:41.699
are just born out of cowardice. And I say that

01:44:41.699 --> 01:44:43.920
absolutely deliberately. That will never happen.

01:44:44.079 --> 01:44:46.539
They'll never go for it. Oh, but it's complicated.

01:44:47.119 --> 01:44:50.239
You know, it'll take time, all this shit. And

01:44:50.239 --> 01:44:53.659
I'm like, you know what? Bollocks. When the planes

01:44:53.659 --> 01:44:57.279
hit the towers, how many people turned on a fucking

01:44:57.279 --> 01:45:00.340
dime and said, I'm going to go sign up? The military,

01:45:00.579 --> 01:45:04.560
police, fire, whatever. One single event changed

01:45:04.560 --> 01:45:07.859
the entire landscape of people in uniform. When

01:45:07.859 --> 01:45:11.720
COVID hit, how quickly was it to shut down the

01:45:11.720 --> 01:45:15.079
entire planet? But you're telling me that putting

01:45:15.079 --> 01:45:20.399
in some proactive mental health tools or restructuring

01:45:20.399 --> 01:45:22.199
a work week and taking the money that you're

01:45:22.199 --> 01:45:25.300
wasting in lack of retention and overtime and

01:45:25.300 --> 01:45:28.159
putting it proactively and hiring young recruits,

01:45:28.279 --> 01:45:30.840
oh, that will take time. No, it fucking won't

01:45:30.840 --> 01:45:33.729
take time. this is what pisses me off the departments

01:45:33.729 --> 01:45:35.430
that have made it happen they just went into

01:45:35.430 --> 01:45:38.329
a room and they said hey this isn't working kind

01:45:38.329 --> 01:45:40.109
of like we were talking about with drug prohibition

01:45:40.109 --> 01:45:43.470
and in portugal let's try something different

01:45:43.470 --> 01:45:45.689
and all the grown -ups in the room go yeah that

01:45:45.689 --> 01:45:47.569
actually makes sense let's just do it and then

01:45:47.569 --> 01:45:50.630
they fucking do it So this is what is so maddening

01:45:50.630 --> 01:45:52.770
is, you know, you and I probably have been aware

01:45:52.770 --> 01:45:54.689
of this more, as you said, than some people,

01:45:54.729 --> 01:45:57.090
because we have a kind of echo chamber because

01:45:57.090 --> 01:46:00.109
we just dove headfirst into all these great minds

01:46:00.109 --> 01:46:01.649
that have already been out there in the mental

01:46:01.649 --> 01:46:06.029
health space. But this information has been out,

01:46:06.109 --> 01:46:10.909
even just in my little insular world, it's been

01:46:10.909 --> 01:46:12.649
about 10 years that we've been talking about

01:46:12.649 --> 01:46:16.630
this now. And yet. the inaction that's happened

01:46:16.630 --> 01:46:19.449
we've proven without a doubt for example that

01:46:19.449 --> 01:46:21.449
sleep deprivation is hugely related and like

01:46:21.449 --> 01:46:24.449
you said the swing shifts the the days and the

01:46:24.449 --> 01:46:27.390
nights the days and the nights is the worst schedule

01:46:27.390 --> 01:46:29.789
on the planet because our anyone that works those

01:46:29.789 --> 01:46:32.890
cannot regulate their circadian rhythm you know

01:46:32.890 --> 01:46:36.449
in my profession 56 hour work week again you

01:46:36.449 --> 01:46:38.649
look show look our police officers work 40 our

01:46:38.649 --> 01:46:41.010
firefighters work 56 what the fuck is going on

01:46:41.010 --> 01:46:44.359
oh but it's complicated Oh, but it'll take, no.

01:46:44.939 --> 01:46:47.560
Why are they working 16 hours more than everyone

01:46:47.560 --> 01:46:51.380
else? So this is what really is a call to action

01:46:51.380 --> 01:46:53.840
now. And I think that we're really seeing this.

01:46:53.960 --> 01:46:58.760
I think politically we're seeing the person on

01:46:58.760 --> 01:47:01.939
the spinning wheel, the potter, the clay. When

01:47:01.939 --> 01:47:04.020
it gets off kilter slightly, that thing starts

01:47:04.020 --> 01:47:06.460
wobbling and then flies off into the wall on

01:47:06.460 --> 01:47:08.659
the side. That's what's happening now because

01:47:08.659 --> 01:47:10.720
I think we're really starting to see who the

01:47:10.720 --> 01:47:13.479
good leaders are. and who the charlatans are.

01:47:13.640 --> 01:47:15.720
And that could be nationally, or it could be

01:47:15.720 --> 01:47:17.460
at the head of a police or fire department or

01:47:17.460 --> 01:47:19.899
the head of a union, whoever those people are.

01:47:20.199 --> 01:47:23.279
And so the ones with the set of balls or a female

01:47:23.279 --> 01:47:26.020
version of that are truly selflessly advocating

01:47:26.020 --> 01:47:28.579
for their people are the ones we need at the

01:47:28.579 --> 01:47:31.319
helms. And the ones that say, oh, I need to see

01:47:31.319 --> 01:47:34.199
studies. Oh, that'll never happen. Oh, we just

01:47:34.199 --> 01:47:36.520
don't have the budget. Need to step the fuck

01:47:36.520 --> 01:47:39.399
aside because our men and women are dying every

01:47:39.399 --> 01:47:42.390
single fucking day. And enough is enough with

01:47:42.390 --> 01:47:45.449
this fucking cowardice. I'm so sick of it. The

01:47:45.449 --> 01:47:48.430
information is there, it's irrefutable. Now it's

01:47:48.430 --> 01:47:50.989
time for yours and my generation to step up and

01:47:50.989 --> 01:47:55.569
say, we're changing this. Yeah, that's leadership.

01:47:55.949 --> 01:47:58.850
That's culture change, right? And that's hard.

01:47:58.989 --> 01:48:02.149
That's super hard, but that is their job. And

01:48:02.149 --> 01:48:04.649
unfortunately, not everyone's good at their job.

01:48:05.159 --> 01:48:06.840
We have some great leaders too. Like I don't

01:48:06.840 --> 01:48:09.079
want to only kind of rip on management. We're

01:48:09.079 --> 01:48:11.079
very fortunate to have some fantastic leaders,

01:48:11.159 --> 01:48:13.720
but it just comes with setting that vision. And

01:48:13.720 --> 01:48:16.119
I mean, I cite, as far as schedules, I talk about

01:48:16.119 --> 01:48:18.279
the Vancouver police schedule. They have this

01:48:18.279 --> 01:48:20.079
rotating pattern where you do four consistent

01:48:20.079 --> 01:48:23.539
days and four afternoons and four evenings and

01:48:23.539 --> 01:48:26.560
four nights. And one crew is just on early mornings,

01:48:26.720 --> 01:48:29.640
right? So there is better ways. It's just, we

01:48:29.640 --> 01:48:32.260
have to be willing to try. We have to risk failure

01:48:32.260 --> 01:48:35.199
of some of them. And the default of not changing

01:48:35.199 --> 01:48:37.760
anything is what's easy. Easy mode is just show

01:48:37.760 --> 01:48:41.039
up, keep the status quo, rocking the boat, making

01:48:41.039 --> 01:48:44.100
changes, securing extra funding to pay for some

01:48:44.100 --> 01:48:47.239
of these things. That's what's hard. But we need

01:48:47.239 --> 01:48:49.399
those kind of leaders. And if you're going to

01:48:49.399 --> 01:48:51.720
lead like that in your organization, your people

01:48:51.720 --> 01:48:53.500
will go through a wall for you. Because I'll

01:48:53.500 --> 01:48:55.640
say I've had bad leaders and good leaders. And

01:48:55.640 --> 01:48:57.100
when it's a bad leader and they're saying, hey,

01:48:57.140 --> 01:48:58.680
I need you to stay late. I need you to work at

01:48:58.680 --> 01:49:00.020
three in the morning and blah, blah, blah. I

01:49:00.020 --> 01:49:02.739
say, no. I'm not doing it. Why? Because you treat

01:49:02.739 --> 01:49:05.359
me terribly. So I'm not going to go the extra

01:49:05.359 --> 01:49:07.819
mile for you. Versus I have leaders, I'd do anything

01:49:07.819 --> 01:49:10.220
for them because they'd do anything for you.

01:49:10.560 --> 01:49:12.680
So I think that's what you're saying. And James,

01:49:12.800 --> 01:49:14.739
I appreciate your leadership on this. Like I

01:49:14.739 --> 01:49:16.180
look up to you for what you've done. Look at

01:49:16.180 --> 01:49:17.920
what you've done between your books and your

01:49:17.920 --> 01:49:20.659
podcasts. Like you really have advocated for

01:49:20.659 --> 01:49:22.720
this. You've really helped to spread a good message

01:49:22.720 --> 01:49:25.279
and help teach people about what they need to

01:49:25.279 --> 01:49:27.640
know. So keep the leadership that you're doing

01:49:27.640 --> 01:49:30.239
because I think you're doing a fantastic job.

01:49:30.800 --> 01:49:33.659
Well, I think just with it's all the people that

01:49:33.659 --> 01:49:35.939
care enough that I'm standing side by side with.

01:49:35.979 --> 01:49:38.159
I mean, you know, to me, it's I mean, yeah, I

01:49:38.159 --> 01:49:40.380
would absolutely as leadership as well. But it's

01:49:40.380 --> 01:49:42.420
just connecting the dots. I mean, people like

01:49:42.420 --> 01:49:44.880
yourself who are advocating your profession have

01:49:44.880 --> 01:49:47.539
written an amazing book, just getting the person

01:49:47.539 --> 01:49:50.539
that needs it to the person that has it. I posted

01:49:50.539 --> 01:49:52.119
I was just looking at what you're talking then

01:49:52.119 --> 01:49:56.180
this morning. So I've got the music playing.

01:49:56.239 --> 01:49:58.859
There was a quote that popped up on my social

01:49:58.859 --> 01:50:02.210
media. It says. The coward calls his chains peace

01:50:02.210 --> 01:50:04.909
and offers them to his children. Supposedly,

01:50:04.909 --> 01:50:07.689
that's a Viking saying. The coward calls his

01:50:07.689 --> 01:50:10.890
chains peace and offers them to his children.

01:50:11.090 --> 01:50:15.310
So basically, apathy, doing nothing, passes on

01:50:15.310 --> 01:50:17.090
to the next generation, whether it's the next

01:50:17.090 --> 01:50:19.449
generation of cops, whether it's your own family,

01:50:19.569 --> 01:50:22.770
generational trauma. And so the only way you

01:50:22.770 --> 01:50:24.609
stop that is to have the courage to say enough

01:50:24.609 --> 01:50:26.710
is enough. And so that really resonated with

01:50:26.710 --> 01:50:29.750
me today. But, you know, again. This isn't someone

01:50:29.750 --> 01:50:32.510
standing, you know, holding a candle on their

01:50:32.510 --> 01:50:34.689
own. There's so many, there's a community of

01:50:34.689 --> 01:50:37.810
people way ahead of us that already had the answers,

01:50:38.069 --> 01:50:39.869
the Gil Martins, like you said, all these people

01:50:39.869 --> 01:50:43.829
that we've talked about. But it's now about disseminating

01:50:43.829 --> 01:50:45.310
this knowledge, getting people to understand,

01:50:45.510 --> 01:50:47.130
and then getting people to realize that they

01:50:47.130 --> 01:50:49.229
can change, you know, empower them. And it's

01:50:49.229 --> 01:50:51.050
the same thing I said with post -traumatic growth.

01:50:51.750 --> 01:50:54.270
This conversation shouldn't be a doom and gloom

01:50:54.270 --> 01:50:56.640
conversation. Whether you're struggling with

01:50:56.640 --> 01:50:58.279
your mental health or whether you just want to

01:50:58.279 --> 01:51:00.340
operate at the highest level and get in a flow

01:51:00.340 --> 01:51:05.239
state as a SWAT or ERT operator, it's the same

01:51:05.239 --> 01:51:10.539
thing. The healthy mind not only prevents you

01:51:10.539 --> 01:51:12.739
from going into a dark place, it allows you to

01:51:12.739 --> 01:51:15.180
operate at the highest level. So in my profession,

01:51:15.239 --> 01:51:17.619
that might be finding a kid in a building because

01:51:17.619 --> 01:51:20.159
my mind is clear, or it might be pushing the

01:51:20.159 --> 01:51:23.109
right drugs at three in the morning. So, you

01:51:23.109 --> 01:51:25.569
know, there is no downside to this other than

01:51:25.569 --> 01:51:27.670
having the courage to say the way we've done

01:51:27.670 --> 01:51:31.189
it isn't working. We need to find other ways.

01:51:31.310 --> 01:51:33.069
And the beautiful thing is people have already

01:51:33.069 --> 01:51:35.310
figured it out. All you've got to do is have

01:51:35.310 --> 01:51:39.029
the courage to actually enact that change. Yeah.

01:51:39.109 --> 01:51:42.470
And I would say when that change happens, it's

01:51:42.470 --> 01:51:44.289
so slow. You often struggle to see it in the

01:51:44.289 --> 01:51:46.680
moment. But like I have friends who are firefighters

01:51:46.680 --> 01:51:49.420
and over these last several years, they've switched

01:51:49.420 --> 01:51:54.560
from a two days, two nights to a 24 -72. So I

01:51:54.560 --> 01:51:58.600
think we are seeing positive changes. It just

01:51:58.600 --> 01:52:01.119
feels so slow in the moment and so hard to see

01:52:01.119 --> 01:52:04.100
at times. But I think that's a part of what culture

01:52:04.100 --> 01:52:07.479
change can look like. And I think it's something

01:52:07.479 --> 01:52:09.680
we all will need to keep working on through our

01:52:09.680 --> 01:52:12.399
whole careers and our whole lives. And then we

01:52:12.399 --> 01:52:14.199
basically need to pass it on to the next generation.

01:52:14.920 --> 01:52:17.359
And back even to families, like that's my hope

01:52:17.359 --> 01:52:19.920
for my kids is that I can take what I got. And

01:52:19.920 --> 01:52:21.899
I think I got pretty good from my family. And

01:52:21.899 --> 01:52:23.579
I hope I can give them a little bit better, a

01:52:23.579 --> 01:52:25.100
little bit of a better world, a little bit better

01:52:25.100 --> 01:52:27.720
upbringing, and just then hope to pass on to

01:52:27.720 --> 01:52:29.380
them to try and make it better from there. And

01:52:29.380 --> 01:52:31.520
my hope is the same within the profession that

01:52:31.520 --> 01:52:33.520
we'd mentor the next generation. I'm very fortunate.

01:52:34.100 --> 01:52:36.119
I've gone out to our national training center

01:52:36.119 --> 01:52:38.760
four times now to present to like an auditorium

01:52:38.760 --> 01:52:42.000
of our cadets and just trying to normalize. being

01:52:42.000 --> 01:52:44.500
healthy and that it's an action. It's, you don't

01:52:44.500 --> 01:52:46.560
pass your physical once. And now I did it. I

01:52:46.560 --> 01:52:48.699
ticked the box. I'm good. You need to be fit

01:52:48.699 --> 01:52:51.359
to do the job because the citizens rely on you.

01:52:51.399 --> 01:52:54.039
Your partners rely on you. And one of the guys

01:52:54.039 --> 01:52:56.140
that does it with me or has done it with me,

01:52:56.199 --> 01:52:59.079
he says, asking for help was the most courageous

01:52:59.079 --> 01:53:01.619
thing I've ever done. And that officer has done

01:53:01.619 --> 01:53:04.560
some absolutely insane things in his career,

01:53:04.680 --> 01:53:07.119
what he's been through, but yet asking for help

01:53:07.119 --> 01:53:09.300
was the most courageous thing. And I tell him,

01:53:10.109 --> 01:53:12.109
You coming here and saying that to these cadets

01:53:12.109 --> 01:53:14.090
makes it so they'll never have to say it one

01:53:14.090 --> 01:53:16.630
day. You're giving them permission to be human.

01:53:16.750 --> 01:53:18.310
You're giving them permission to ask for help.

01:53:18.430 --> 01:53:20.010
You're giving them permission to stay healthy.

01:53:20.149 --> 01:53:22.310
You're also setting the expectation to do it

01:53:22.310 --> 01:53:25.289
by modeling it for them. And James, I think that,

01:53:25.310 --> 01:53:27.149
again, comes back to what you're doing with your

01:53:27.149 --> 01:53:28.590
stuff. And again, it's what I'm trying to do.

01:53:28.689 --> 01:53:31.229
I think of it as just healing out loud. I'm not

01:53:31.229 --> 01:53:33.149
doing this because I need social media likes

01:53:33.149 --> 01:53:35.329
or I need to sell a book. I just found a way

01:53:35.329 --> 01:53:37.569
to help people with an asymmetrical use of time.

01:53:37.949 --> 01:53:39.470
which I think is what your podcast is, what your

01:53:39.470 --> 01:53:41.710
books are. It's instead of being able to help

01:53:41.710 --> 01:53:43.930
people one -on -one. In an organization with

01:53:43.930 --> 01:53:46.189
20 ,000 cops, it feels like you're not doing

01:53:46.189 --> 01:53:47.970
enough, even though every time that matters.

01:53:48.250 --> 01:53:51.109
And my hope was to just put out resources in

01:53:51.109 --> 01:53:53.189
a way that I can help someone while I'm asleep

01:53:53.189 --> 01:53:55.329
or while I'm not there or who I've never met.

01:53:55.569 --> 01:53:58.750
And again, I think that's leveraging technology

01:53:58.750 --> 01:54:01.289
to help on a bigger scale and create that culture

01:54:01.289 --> 01:54:04.939
change. Absolutely. Well, your book is Setting

01:54:04.939 --> 01:54:07.500
My Sights on Stigma, Thoughts from an Injured

01:54:07.500 --> 01:54:10.699
Mind. What made you write the book and then tell

01:54:10.699 --> 01:54:12.600
people listening what they can find between the

01:54:12.600 --> 01:54:17.439
covers? Wow, thank you. It's the book I wish

01:54:17.439 --> 01:54:19.720
I had had. It's the book I needed. I spent four

01:54:19.720 --> 01:54:21.880
years writing it. I did a master's degree studying

01:54:21.880 --> 01:54:24.180
this. I followed up with all the academic literature.

01:54:24.560 --> 01:54:28.159
I have about 10 years on a SWAT team or emergency

01:54:28.159 --> 01:54:30.390
response. We call it up here in Canada. about

01:54:30.390 --> 01:54:32.510
10 years of peer support. So compiling those

01:54:32.510 --> 01:54:34.810
anecdotal examples, the lived experience, the

01:54:34.810 --> 01:54:37.289
peer support, what, you know, research journals

01:54:37.289 --> 01:54:39.329
and books. And, and, you know, you talked about

01:54:39.329 --> 01:54:41.270
Dave Grossman. He's a big source for my lethal

01:54:41.270 --> 01:54:43.510
force psychology chapter. Cause he's, he's awesome.

01:54:44.210 --> 01:54:46.350
And just, then I tried to break it down into

01:54:46.350 --> 01:54:48.529
topics. What were the problems I faced? So for

01:54:48.529 --> 01:54:52.550
me, stigma, stigma was so huge. Police culture,

01:54:52.850 --> 01:54:55.770
lethal force psychology, emotional pain, right?

01:54:55.850 --> 01:54:57.189
I struggled with that, but I didn't understand

01:54:57.189 --> 01:55:00.010
it, especially as a man. suicide i share getting

01:55:00.010 --> 01:55:02.409
into like experiencing some thoughts of suicide

01:55:02.409 --> 01:55:05.770
without understanding it uh my journey of post

01:55:05.770 --> 01:55:07.890
-traumatic growth right post -traumatic stress

01:55:07.890 --> 01:55:11.409
yes being diagnosed yes i i got so bad i failed

01:55:11.409 --> 01:55:14.029
my psych exam my my first attempt at return to

01:55:14.029 --> 01:55:16.270
work psych exam but then i got so much better

01:55:16.270 --> 01:55:19.130
and some of these things will change us you can't

01:55:19.130 --> 01:55:21.170
always go back to who you were but it doesn't

01:55:21.170 --> 01:55:23.109
mean you can't find a new or better version of

01:55:23.109 --> 01:55:26.460
yourself and change in positive ways So I just

01:55:26.460 --> 01:55:28.720
broke down the book into these different chapters.

01:55:28.979 --> 01:55:31.640
I start with a story in every chapter to try

01:55:31.640 --> 01:55:33.840
and make it an engaging read and fun. And you

01:55:33.840 --> 01:55:35.779
can remember the story to teach the lessons.

01:55:36.279 --> 01:55:38.199
And then I share all these insights from different

01:55:38.199 --> 01:55:40.539
psychologists and the books that really helped

01:55:40.539 --> 01:55:43.359
me as I was healing. Even things like sleep science.

01:55:43.439 --> 01:55:45.300
That's my last chapter. Sharing what it's like

01:55:45.300 --> 01:55:46.920
to have one of these nightmares from trauma.

01:55:47.300 --> 01:55:49.520
And then sharing all this whole whack of science

01:55:49.520 --> 01:55:53.039
from melatonin to prescription sleep meds to

01:55:53.039 --> 01:55:55.859
sleep hygiene. All the things that you can do.

01:55:56.279 --> 01:55:58.939
My goal is that this is something that can help

01:55:58.939 --> 01:56:01.180
you. And for anybody who's debating whether you

01:56:01.180 --> 01:56:03.439
want to read it, you can go to my website. Just

01:56:03.439 --> 01:56:06.260
my name, markbouchard .ca. It's Mark with a K.

01:56:06.859 --> 01:56:09.079
And then you can download it. You just put your

01:56:09.079 --> 01:56:11.220
email address in. I'm not going to spam you.

01:56:11.279 --> 01:56:13.039
I'm not looking to send you anything. I wrote

01:56:13.039 --> 01:56:14.939
it to help you, not to sell it to you. I've probably

01:56:14.939 --> 01:56:17.720
given away a few hundred copies myself because

01:56:17.720 --> 01:56:20.359
I know it's what I needed. I know so many people

01:56:20.359 --> 01:56:22.260
who did. Talked about some of these great books

01:56:22.260 --> 01:56:24.140
like Emotional Survival for Law Enforcement.

01:56:24.720 --> 01:56:27.239
Well, there's nothing in there about sleep. There's

01:56:27.239 --> 01:56:29.779
nothing in there about trauma, right? And I wish

01:56:29.779 --> 01:56:32.020
that guys like Dave Grossman and guys like Kevin

01:56:32.020 --> 01:56:33.600
Gilmartin had written a book on some of these

01:56:33.600 --> 01:56:35.880
kind of things. And actually, Dave Grossman,

01:56:35.939 --> 01:56:37.340
I said this to him. I got to interview him once.

01:56:37.560 --> 01:56:39.720
And I told him hearing him on a podcast talk

01:56:39.720 --> 01:56:42.739
about sleep was what motivated me to write a

01:56:42.739 --> 01:56:44.909
chapter about sleep. to compile all the best

01:56:44.909 --> 01:56:47.170
research I could find from Matthew Walker and

01:56:47.170 --> 01:56:49.670
Kirk Parsley, Nick Little -Hales, and a bunch

01:56:49.670 --> 01:56:51.789
of these world -class experts, teach myself,

01:56:52.050 --> 01:56:54.569
and then try and pass it on to others. So my

01:56:54.569 --> 01:56:57.069
hope is that my book can help you. If anybody

01:56:57.069 --> 01:56:59.470
listening wants to reach out, you can find me

01:56:59.470 --> 01:57:01.069
on different social medias, or you can find me

01:57:01.069 --> 01:57:03.329
on my website. And I just want you to be happy,

01:57:03.409 --> 01:57:06.229
healthy, and be able to take care of those around

01:57:06.229 --> 01:57:07.869
you, whether you're a first responder or whether

01:57:07.869 --> 01:57:10.989
it's your family. Beautiful. Well, I want to

01:57:10.989 --> 01:57:12.909
thank you so much, Mark. It's been such an amazing

01:57:12.909 --> 01:57:17.109
conversation. Just that there's a lot of people

01:57:17.109 --> 01:57:19.229
that come on here and for some of them, you know,

01:57:19.229 --> 01:57:21.470
their mental health challenges that take them

01:57:21.470 --> 01:57:24.229
out of the profession, but to have you operating

01:57:24.229 --> 01:57:27.189
at a high level, going through this, finding

01:57:27.189 --> 01:57:30.590
your own unique toolbox of your healing journey,

01:57:30.670 --> 01:57:33.550
but then writing about this. And then again,

01:57:33.630 --> 01:57:35.850
I love the fact that you do touch on post -traumatic

01:57:35.850 --> 01:57:38.949
growth in the book. It's just so important. And

01:57:38.949 --> 01:57:40.569
it's like you said, I mean, people say to me

01:57:40.569 --> 01:57:43.310
early on, you know, when they would start podcasts,

01:57:43.489 --> 01:57:45.229
oh, I don't want to tread on your toes. I mean,

01:57:45.229 --> 01:57:48.369
what are you talking about? The more of us that

01:57:48.369 --> 01:57:50.590
are out there giving a platform, talking about

01:57:50.590 --> 01:57:53.189
these things, the more chance that that's going

01:57:53.189 --> 01:57:55.710
to resonate with a particular person. And even

01:57:55.710 --> 01:57:57.470
with your book, like you said, there are some

01:57:57.470 --> 01:57:59.770
police mental health books already out there,

01:57:59.789 --> 01:58:02.020
but. It's a completely different perspective.

01:58:02.140 --> 01:58:04.859
It's your perspective. And ironically, Dave Grossman

01:58:04.859 --> 01:58:06.979
was talking about sleep a lot in the most recent

01:58:06.979 --> 01:58:09.659
interview I did with him. So I want to thank

01:58:09.659 --> 01:58:12.060
you not only for your courageous vulnerability

01:58:12.060 --> 01:58:14.659
today, but for also what you're doing and the

01:58:14.659 --> 01:58:17.000
book, because it's an invaluable resource for

01:58:17.000 --> 01:58:20.960
people listening. And this layer now, this conversation

01:58:20.960 --> 01:58:24.439
and the resources themselves. Every single layer

01:58:24.439 --> 01:58:27.000
of that is saving more and more lives. So I want

01:58:27.000 --> 01:58:29.199
to thank you so, so much for being so generous

01:58:29.199 --> 01:58:31.460
with your time and coming on the Behind the Shield

01:58:31.460 --> 01:58:34.479
podcast today. Thank you, brother. It's been

01:58:34.479 --> 01:58:36.680
my honor and my pleasure. So thank you very much

01:58:36.680 --> 01:58:37.140
for having me.