WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.620 This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran 00:00:02.620 --> 00:00:04.980 -owned and operated performance optimization 00:00:04.980 --> 00:00:08.039 company that I introduced recently as a sponsor 00:00:08.039 --> 00:00:10.820 on this show. Well, since then I have actually 00:00:10.820 --> 00:00:13.080 been using my products and I have had incredible 00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:15.939 success. There was initial blood work that was 00:00:15.939 --> 00:00:19.039 extremely detailed and based on that they offered 00:00:19.039 --> 00:00:23.519 supplementation. So I began taking DHEA. BPC 00:00:23.519 --> 00:00:26.399 -157 for inflammation based on the fact that 00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:28.300 I've been a stuntman, a martial artist and a 00:00:28.300 --> 00:00:30.579 firefighter my whole life. Lots of aches and 00:00:30.579 --> 00:00:33.880 pains. Dihexa to help cognition after multiple 00:00:33.880 --> 00:00:36.939 punches to the head and shift work and peptides. 00:00:37.079 --> 00:00:39.520 Four months later they did a detailed blood work 00:00:39.520 --> 00:00:42.259 again and I was actually able to taper off two 00:00:42.259 --> 00:00:44.479 of the peptides because my body had responded 00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:47.100 so well to just one of them that it was optimized 00:00:47.100 --> 00:00:50.530 at that point. So I cannot speak highly enough 00:00:50.530 --> 00:00:53.530 of the immense range of supplementation that 00:00:53.530 --> 00:00:55.789 they offer, whether it's male health, female 00:00:55.789 --> 00:00:58.530 health, peptides to boost your own testosterone, 00:00:58.649 --> 00:01:00.829 which I would argue is needed by a lot of the 00:01:00.829 --> 00:01:03.570 fire service, or whether it's exogenous testosterone 00:01:03.570 --> 00:01:06.750 needed, especially after TBIs or advanced age. 00:01:07.239 --> 00:01:09.480 Now, as I mentioned before, the other side of 00:01:09.480 --> 00:01:11.980 this company is an altruistic arm called the 00:01:11.980 --> 00:01:14.840 Transcend Foundation, which is putting veterans 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:17.620 and first responders through some of their protocols 00:01:17.620 --> 00:01:21.340 free of charge. Now, Transcend are also offering 00:01:21.340 --> 00:01:24.019 you, the audience, 10 % off their protocols. 00:01:24.239 --> 00:01:27.120 And you can find that on jamesgearing .com under 00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:29.840 the Products tab. And if you want to hear more 00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:32.560 about Transcend and their story, listen to episode 00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:37.390 808 with the founder, Ernie Colling. or go to 00:01:37.390 --> 00:01:42.250 transcendcompany .com. Welcome to the Pioneer 00:01:42.250 --> 00:01:44.450 Shield podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing, 00:01:44.489 --> 00:01:46.430 and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome 00:01:46.430 --> 00:01:50.530 on the show teacher, fire chief, and the man 00:01:50.530 --> 00:01:55.450 behind Two Dark Thirty, Mark Hill. Now, in this 00:01:55.450 --> 00:01:58.609 conversation, we discuss a host of topics from 00:01:58.609 --> 00:02:02.109 his journey into the world of teaching, firefighting, 00:02:02.109 --> 00:02:07.689 leadership, writing, the firefighter work week, 00:02:07.829 --> 00:02:12.009 volunteerism, and so much more. Now, before we 00:02:12.009 --> 00:02:14.030 get to this incredible conversation, as I say 00:02:14.030 --> 00:02:17.009 every week, please just take a moment. Go to 00:02:17.009 --> 00:02:19.409 whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe 00:02:19.409 --> 00:02:23.030 to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating. 00:02:23.900 --> 00:02:26.919 Every single five -star rating truly does elevate 00:02:26.919 --> 00:02:29.520 this podcast, therefore making it easier for 00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:33.180 others to find. And this is a free library of 00:02:33.180 --> 00:02:38.280 over 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in return 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:41.340 is that you help share these incredible men and 00:02:41.340 --> 00:02:44.500 women's stories so I can get them to every single 00:02:44.500 --> 00:02:47.199 person on planet Earth who needs to hear them. 00:02:47.740 --> 00:02:52.080 So with that being said, I introduce to you Mark 00:02:52.080 --> 00:03:14.879 Hill. Enjoy. Well, Mark, I want to start by saying 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:17.500 thank you so much for taking the time and coming 00:03:17.500 --> 00:03:20.129 on the Behind the Shield podcast today. Well, 00:03:20.169 --> 00:03:22.050 thank you, James, for having me. It's a pleasure 00:03:22.050 --> 00:03:26.189 to be here. I'm honored to be on your show. So 00:03:26.189 --> 00:03:27.810 where on planet Earth are we finding you this 00:03:27.810 --> 00:03:32.930 afternoon? I am right now in chilly 44 degree 00:03:32.930 --> 00:03:36.210 Fahrenheit, Wausau, Wisconsin, which is in the 00:03:36.210 --> 00:03:39.669 middle of the state. I wish I was still in Florida. 00:03:39.689 --> 00:03:43.449 We were in Florida back. When was that? For my 00:03:43.449 --> 00:03:47.449 girl's spring break. End of March. And it was 00:03:47.449 --> 00:03:51.349 sunny and... 75 and 80 degrees the whole time 00:03:51.349 --> 00:03:54.069 we were there in beautiful Cocoa Beach, Florida. 00:03:55.770 --> 00:03:59.849 It's amazing how you get depressed when you lack 00:03:59.849 --> 00:04:04.330 that sunshine. It's unbelievable. You don't realize 00:04:04.330 --> 00:04:08.610 how much you like it until it's gone. Then you're 00:04:08.610 --> 00:04:11.849 like, I want that back. I like that. I love that. 00:04:12.750 --> 00:04:16.470 Vitamin D, natural vitamin D. That's what I find. 00:04:16.509 --> 00:04:18.610 People ask me, do I miss the UK? And of course 00:04:18.610 --> 00:04:20.970 I do. I miss many, many things about it. My family, 00:04:21.029 --> 00:04:25.689 the comedy, you know, the, the manners, some 00:04:25.689 --> 00:04:28.410 of the other areas, but, and then on the roads 00:04:28.410 --> 00:04:30.889 too, my God, I mean, talk about driving, totally 00:04:30.889 --> 00:04:33.629 different experience than over here. But when 00:04:33.629 --> 00:04:35.449 I look out my window and it's sunny every day, 00:04:35.509 --> 00:04:37.389 it's like a solar panel. You know, when, when 00:04:37.389 --> 00:04:40.230 I go home, it's cloudy and drizzling. It really 00:04:40.230 --> 00:04:43.470 does kind of drain me. So very, very appreciative 00:04:43.470 --> 00:04:45.800 to live here in Florida. Nick, I was going to 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:49.180 say, are you in the Orlando area? Yeah, just 00:04:49.180 --> 00:04:54.459 north of Orlando. Yeah. Yeah. See, I want to, 00:04:54.459 --> 00:04:59.240 if I could, my wife, she's still working. I'm 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:02.899 now obviously retired, but I tell her every day, 00:05:02.939 --> 00:05:04.079 I look at the weather and I'm like, hey, you 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:07.279 know what? It's sunny and 75 in Cocoa Beach right 00:05:07.279 --> 00:05:09.980 now. She's like, oh, really? Yeah, that's great. 00:05:10.379 --> 00:05:13.879 Good for them. I'm like, yeah, I know. Let's 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:17.300 go. Let's get out of here, you know. I grew up 00:05:17.300 --> 00:05:19.819 in the UP of Michigan. That's where I actually 00:05:19.819 --> 00:05:23.920 grew up. That's where my family's from. And I 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:27.860 was used to literally, cripes, we would have 00:05:27.860 --> 00:05:30.680 snow. I remember trick -or -treating in Halloween 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:34.279 in snowsuits. You know, you try to squeeze your 00:05:34.279 --> 00:05:37.220 costume on under a snowsuit or over a snowsuit. 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:41.259 And we would have snow literally until June. 00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:44.759 You know, there was still dirty, you know, dirty 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:46.899 snow banks or whatever, you know, from all the, 00:05:46.920 --> 00:05:48.639 you know, sand and grass, you know, stuff they 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:50.360 put in the road. But there were still snow banks 00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:53.879 in the middle of June, you know. So it's just, 00:05:53.959 --> 00:05:57.560 yeah, talk about gray, cloudy, overcast, never 00:05:57.560 --> 00:06:00.720 seeing the sun, you know, depressing. Yeah, there 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:02.660 is a reason why there's so many bars up there. 00:06:02.740 --> 00:06:07.439 But, you know, it can get to you. You don't realize 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:09.980 how good it is in the sunshine when you don't 00:06:09.980 --> 00:06:13.279 have the sunshine. One of my friends, well, my 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:15.420 wife grew up in North Canton and one of her best 00:06:15.420 --> 00:06:17.980 friends who sadly we lost not too long ago, her 00:06:17.980 --> 00:06:21.319 husband is, I think he's from Michigan originally, 00:06:21.399 --> 00:06:23.500 if I'm not mistaken, but they would talk about, 00:06:23.540 --> 00:06:25.420 yeah, they get all their Arctic suits on and 00:06:25.420 --> 00:06:27.379 then they go and saw a hole in the ice and they 00:06:27.379 --> 00:06:30.339 sit there and fish. And I'm like, I look out 00:06:30.339 --> 00:06:32.240 my window and I'm like, I don't know, maybe you 00:06:32.240 --> 00:06:34.399 should come to Florida for a bit because you 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:36.199 can do a lot more than cut a hole in the ice 00:06:36.199 --> 00:06:38.459 down here. But it, you know, everything has pros 00:06:38.459 --> 00:06:41.439 and cons. We are just starting to get that heat 00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:44.279 now that makes a lot of the snowbirds then turn 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:46.620 around and fly back the other way because our 00:06:46.620 --> 00:06:50.000 summer's here, especially in bunker gear. I mean, 00:06:50.019 --> 00:06:53.120 kudos to everyone in the state of Florida, California, 00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:57.180 Texas, the hot, hot states. Firefighting in this 00:06:57.180 --> 00:07:00.399 kind of heat and humidity, it's an experience, 00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:02.740 that's for sure. Well, that's the thing, too. 00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:05.379 I remember when I've done different conferences, 00:07:05.540 --> 00:07:07.699 you know how it is. You go and you talk to people. 00:07:08.699 --> 00:07:10.639 you know i was that was one of the things you 00:07:10.639 --> 00:07:13.939 know because on you know on tv you know they 00:07:13.939 --> 00:07:16.319 it looks it looks totally different you know 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:18.699 what i mean it's like those guys that's not turnout 00:07:18.699 --> 00:07:20.459 gear they're wearing you know what i mean you 00:07:20.459 --> 00:07:22.519 could just totally tell you know or like when 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:25.079 some of those guys are doing those uh you know 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:27.319 the stair climbs and stuff like that i'm like 00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:30.019 that's yeah that's your shell you're not you're 00:07:30.019 --> 00:07:32.680 not climbing in your bunker gear those are tennis 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:35.360 shoes those aren't boots you know and it's just 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:38.509 like yeah i wouldn't want to Like you said, I 00:07:38.509 --> 00:07:40.430 wouldn't, if I was in Florida, if I'm on Orlando 00:07:40.430 --> 00:07:43.129 fire, you know, running out of, you know, something 00:07:43.129 --> 00:07:44.970 and you know, you know how it is. Most of our 00:07:44.970 --> 00:07:48.529 calls are EMS anyway. I'm not going to be in 00:07:48.529 --> 00:07:51.550 my full turnout gear, you know, while I'm doing 00:07:51.550 --> 00:07:53.509 whatever, you know what I mean? It's like, no, 00:07:53.569 --> 00:07:56.329 if it's a structural fire, we, we know we have 00:07:56.329 --> 00:07:58.990 smoke and flame show in the, I'll put my turnouts 00:07:58.990 --> 00:08:01.170 on, but nine times out of 10, you're going to 00:08:01.170 --> 00:08:03.850 wear the other stuff, you know? And we actually, 00:08:03.889 --> 00:08:08.149 we, right before I was put to pasture, We had 00:08:08.149 --> 00:08:14.509 a set of, it was both wildland rated and it was 00:08:14.509 --> 00:08:20.589 also rated for extrication and stuff. And we 00:08:20.589 --> 00:08:24.769 ended up wearing that all the time. Because it 00:08:24.769 --> 00:08:27.410 looked like shells. It looked like your normal 00:08:27.410 --> 00:08:30.110 bunker gear, your turnout shells. And it was 00:08:30.110 --> 00:08:31.879 great. it was like, yeah, I could work. Yeah. 00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:33.960 This is, this has got to be what they do. Yeah. 00:08:34.200 --> 00:08:36.720 You know, this is, this has to be it. Cause otherwise, 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:40.019 yeah, I'm walking around with my, you know, all 00:08:40.019 --> 00:08:42.840 my turnout gear on weighing another 300 pounds. 00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:45.419 It's like, yeah, no way. Sweating my fricking 00:08:45.419 --> 00:08:48.440 whatever off and, you know, wishing I'd, you 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:51.000 know, put deodorant in places that deodorant's 00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:53.279 not meant to be. So, you know, I couldn't imagine, 00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:56.149 you know, doing that. Well, you mentioned about 00:08:56.149 --> 00:08:57.929 growing up in Michigan. So let's go back there. 00:08:58.029 --> 00:09:00.549 Tell me about your family dynamic, what your 00:09:00.549 --> 00:09:04.409 parents did, how many siblings? So I'm the oldest 00:09:04.409 --> 00:09:10.149 of three. I'm the lone son. I'm the last, actually. 00:09:10.230 --> 00:09:14.889 I'm the last hill. I have three daughters. So 00:09:14.889 --> 00:09:17.769 I have no male heir. This is it. The line ends 00:09:17.769 --> 00:09:25.649 with me, right? So my dad. All the way back, 00:09:25.789 --> 00:09:29.850 even though my last name is Hill, I'm actually 00:09:29.850 --> 00:09:35.870 more Finnish than I am English. My great -great 00:09:35.870 --> 00:09:37.870 -grandpa, when he came over here from Finland, 00:09:37.970 --> 00:09:39.970 which was a part of Russia at the time, back 00:09:39.970 --> 00:09:45.070 in the 1870s, Finland was a principality of Russia. 00:09:45.230 --> 00:09:46.870 So when they came over, they actually changed 00:09:46.870 --> 00:09:51.169 their last name from Ottahilli to Hill. Because 00:09:51.169 --> 00:09:54.700 Hill, English, Hill. If you wanted to work in 00:09:54.700 --> 00:09:56.860 the copper mines up in the UP and, you know, 00:09:56.860 --> 00:09:58.700 in the Upper Peninsula, if you wanted a good 00:09:58.700 --> 00:10:02.100 job, you need to be English. And they would have 00:10:02.100 --> 00:10:05.279 you be a mine boss, you know, a captain or something. 00:10:05.460 --> 00:10:08.100 So you need to be English. So my great -great 00:10:08.100 --> 00:10:09.879 -grandpa changed. He was like, all right, I can 00:10:09.879 --> 00:10:12.720 be English. You know, so he changed his last 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:15.320 name. So everyone assumed, oh, he's a hill. Okay, 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:19.330 you know, he's from Cornwall. Ironically. after 00:10:19.330 --> 00:10:21.750 all these years of generations i actually am 00:10:21.750 --> 00:10:23.909 a little more english than i am finnish anymore 00:10:23.909 --> 00:10:26.610 so it actually makes sense now my last name but 00:10:26.610 --> 00:10:30.590 um yeah i am the first i'm the first hill not 00:10:30.590 --> 00:10:34.789 to work in the mines in the up i was my my great 00:10:34.789 --> 00:10:38.759 grandpa worked in underground um in the copper 00:10:38.759 --> 00:10:40.960 mines and then he transferred over to the iron 00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:43.740 mines later on uh you know like i said my great 00:10:43.740 --> 00:10:45.899 great grandpa when he you know when everyone 00:10:45.899 --> 00:10:47.919 came over everyone was working the mines my dad 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:50.620 worked in the mines everyone worked in the mines 00:10:50.620 --> 00:10:52.460 and that but that's how it was it was literally 00:10:52.460 --> 00:10:56.039 company towns you know um the upper peninsula 00:10:56.039 --> 00:10:58.360 of michigan especially at the time when we're 00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:02.919 talking you know early 1900s there was very little 00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:05.440 there was a railroad system but it was just for 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:08.500 the mines I mean, almost all of the copper in 00:11:08.500 --> 00:11:11.360 the entire United States, almost all of the iron 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:13.620 ore for the entire United States came from the 00:11:13.620 --> 00:11:17.580 upper peninsula of Michigan. Until they found 00:11:17.580 --> 00:11:21.200 new deposits of ore out in Utah, which is where 00:11:21.200 --> 00:11:24.059 some of the bigger mines are now, big open pit 00:11:24.059 --> 00:11:26.960 mines. It was all coming out of the ground from 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:30.759 upper peninsula of Michigan. So there was a lot 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:33.360 of mines everywhere. I mean, literally hundreds 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:36.960 of hundreds of mines. Everyone worked for the 00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:38.820 mine. Either you worked for the mine or you worked 00:11:38.820 --> 00:11:40.879 for the company that dealt with the mine. It 00:11:40.879 --> 00:11:45.840 was literally company towns. I am the first of 00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:49.019 that generation not to work in the mine. Some 00:11:49.019 --> 00:11:52.500 of the mines are still there. I've got an uncle 00:11:52.500 --> 00:11:54.679 that still works up at the mine. He's going to 00:11:54.679 --> 00:11:58.279 retire actually this year. I've got some cousins 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:02.220 too. I've got some friends that are still up 00:12:02.220 --> 00:12:05.970 there. What my dad calls knuckle draggers. you 00:12:05.970 --> 00:12:08.649 know, you know, walking around constantly, you 00:12:08.649 --> 00:12:12.350 know, uh, your, your hands are permanently stained. 00:12:12.490 --> 00:12:14.610 The cracks of your hands are permanently stained 00:12:14.610 --> 00:12:17.649 with this pink hue from the mind, from the iron 00:12:17.649 --> 00:12:19.529 ore that they're, they're chopping out of the, 00:12:19.529 --> 00:12:22.889 out of the rock. So, um, yeah, he wanted me to 00:12:22.889 --> 00:12:25.570 go to school. So I, I went to school. I went 00:12:25.570 --> 00:12:28.570 to Michigan tech university up in Houghton, Michigan, 00:12:28.590 --> 00:12:33.889 and I went into engineering. Um, this is back 00:12:33.889 --> 00:12:37.429 in the late late 90s, early 2000s. So, you know, 00:12:37.470 --> 00:12:40.570 obviously Dell computers and gateway computers 00:12:40.570 --> 00:12:42.649 and, you know, the internet was just getting 00:12:42.649 --> 00:12:45.590 big and things like that. So my friends that 00:12:45.590 --> 00:12:47.429 were going to school there, they're like, let's 00:12:47.429 --> 00:12:49.649 make a computer company. So I'm like, all right, 00:12:49.690 --> 00:12:53.210 yeah, we'll jump on that bandwagon, right? Well, 00:12:53.370 --> 00:12:57.070 I am not a math guy. So I ended up getting... 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:01.139 I was pleasantly surprised to be, Mark, you know 00:13:01.139 --> 00:13:03.220 what? Engineering is probably not for you kind 00:13:03.220 --> 00:13:07.600 of a discussion. So I was taking social studies 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:12.480 classes to offset my bad grades. So my advisors 00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:15.500 were like, Mark, you've got so many social studies 00:13:15.500 --> 00:13:18.299 credits. You could just go be a teacher. I'm 00:13:18.299 --> 00:13:21.059 like, all right, I'll do that, sure. So then 00:13:21.059 --> 00:13:23.580 I went into teaching when I graduated. Taught 00:13:23.580 --> 00:13:26.500 for many, many years. Taught in middle and high 00:13:26.500 --> 00:13:30.090 school. Football coach, track coach, powerlifting 00:13:30.090 --> 00:13:33.870 coach, all that stuff. Got my master's degree 00:13:33.870 --> 00:13:39.049 in leadership to be a principal. And in Wisconsin 00:13:39.049 --> 00:13:44.590 back in 2010, they had this law called Act 10 00:13:44.590 --> 00:13:46.230 that was passed, and they got rid of collective 00:13:46.230 --> 00:13:51.049 bargaining rights for most teachers. So at that 00:13:51.049 --> 00:13:55.000 time, I got laid off. They made budget cuts at 00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:57.240 the middle school and I got bumped or they got 00:13:57.240 --> 00:13:59.000 they made budget cuts at the high school. I got 00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:01.559 bumped out of my job at the middle school. And 00:14:01.559 --> 00:14:04.779 consequently, at the same time was when we had 00:14:04.779 --> 00:14:07.899 our first daughter. So I'm like, well, I guess 00:14:07.899 --> 00:14:10.720 I'll be stay at home dad for a while. So while 00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:13.980 I was doing that and my wife, thankfully, my 00:14:13.980 --> 00:14:17.870 sugar mama, she was still working. I'm like, 00:14:17.950 --> 00:14:20.409 well, you know, I always had done the volunteer 00:14:20.409 --> 00:14:22.490 fire thing when I was teaching. I was a volunteer 00:14:22.490 --> 00:14:25.870 firefighter for many, many years. I got my EMT 00:14:25.870 --> 00:14:28.529 license. So I was also a first responder. You 00:14:28.529 --> 00:14:32.250 know, we were in a rural area. So I was one of 00:14:32.250 --> 00:14:34.389 the first ones always on scene, depending on 00:14:34.389 --> 00:14:37.809 where we were. But I always liked that. My dad 00:14:37.809 --> 00:14:40.370 had been a volunteer firefighter. So I grew up 00:14:40.370 --> 00:14:42.769 going to the fire hall and rolling hose and, 00:14:42.809 --> 00:14:45.330 you know, being on the fire trucks during parades 00:14:45.330 --> 00:14:47.690 and stuff like that. And my grandpa was a fireman. 00:14:47.730 --> 00:14:51.129 And, you know, so there was a history going back 00:14:51.129 --> 00:14:54.409 for me of being in that service. But my dad did 00:14:54.409 --> 00:14:57.090 not want me to go into the service full time 00:14:57.090 --> 00:15:00.870 because he had tried and failed back in the 80s. 00:15:00.889 --> 00:15:02.830 He's like, no, no, no. Go to school. Actually, 00:15:02.850 --> 00:15:06.070 you know, go do something, you know. So I thought 00:15:06.070 --> 00:15:08.490 it was a little ironic that once I did go to 00:15:08.490 --> 00:15:10.850 school and I did get a teaching job, I then found 00:15:10.850 --> 00:15:13.190 myself in the position where like, no, I want 00:15:13.190 --> 00:15:17.730 to go and try to get a full -time job. And here 00:15:17.730 --> 00:15:20.190 in Wisconsin, if you want to be a full -time 00:15:20.190 --> 00:15:23.429 firefighter, you need to be a paramedic. So while 00:15:23.429 --> 00:15:26.710 I was home with my daughter, I took the paramedic 00:15:26.710 --> 00:15:30.740 classes, got my paramedic license. And then at 00:15:30.740 --> 00:15:32.840 the same time, while I was doing that, I was 00:15:32.840 --> 00:15:37.460 on my local fire department. They had an opening 00:15:37.460 --> 00:15:41.039 for a fire chief role. And I was like, well, 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:43.139 you know, I'll throw my hat in the ring. You 00:15:43.139 --> 00:15:44.879 can't win the lottery until you buy a ticket, 00:15:44.980 --> 00:15:47.620 right? So I threw my hat in the ring and they, 00:15:47.779 --> 00:15:50.360 for whatever reason, thought that I would be 00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:52.320 a great candidate. And they hired me as their 00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:55.840 first full -time fire chief. So I did that for 00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:58.340 a year. That was one of the longest years of 00:15:58.340 --> 00:16:00.539 my life, which is where that second book comes 00:16:00.539 --> 00:16:04.120 from. All the mistakes I made coming along the 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:07.600 way when I when I was fire chief. And then, you 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:10.220 know how things are, you know, you you interact 00:16:10.220 --> 00:16:12.279 with different people and, you know, different 00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:14.600 opportunities come up. So I ended up from that 00:16:14.600 --> 00:16:17.299 position. I got hired with the city of Wausau 00:16:17.299 --> 00:16:23.019 and was a full time for them for eight years 00:16:23.019 --> 00:16:25.559 until I finally hurt my back and they put me 00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:32.149 to pasture. So it's a, it's a long answer, but 00:16:32.149 --> 00:16:36.950 yeah, I am the oldest of three and I've got two 00:16:36.950 --> 00:16:42.649 younger sisters, you know, and I've got three 00:16:42.649 --> 00:16:46.889 daughters, beautiful wife who, like I said, I 00:16:46.889 --> 00:16:49.029 don't know why she married down to me to marry 00:16:49.029 --> 00:16:54.370 me for sure. So, you know. Trying to find the 00:16:54.370 --> 00:16:56.929 path, as they say, new paths, new pathways, new 00:16:56.929 --> 00:17:01.909 doors. Doors closed, doors open. So that's the 00:17:01.909 --> 00:17:05.730 beauty of life, right? Well, going back to the 00:17:05.730 --> 00:17:09.369 mining, let's go all the way back to your father's 00:17:09.369 --> 00:17:12.710 generation. When I asked people that were children 00:17:12.710 --> 00:17:15.710 of firefighters, career firefighters, it's interesting 00:17:15.710 --> 00:17:18.650 getting their perspective as a child. When you 00:17:18.650 --> 00:17:21.029 reflect back now, what were the pros and what 00:17:21.029 --> 00:17:24.380 were the cons? of you seeing your father's experience 00:17:24.380 --> 00:17:31.799 in the mining industry well the one thing when 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:34.039 you're working in a mine and you know i guess 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:36.279 it kind of it correlates and com you know there's 00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:38.819 a lot of comparisons probably to different industrial 00:17:38.819 --> 00:17:43.539 type jobs right so my dad even though he had 00:17:43.539 --> 00:17:46.339 a he had a bachelor's degree he went to you know 00:17:46.339 --> 00:17:48.359 he played football at northern michigan university 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:50.920 he got he you know had a degree but he never 00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:53.759 used it not once he never used that degree not 00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:58.240 one time he because it was kind of a a generational 00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:01.099 and a family thing right it was a traditional 00:18:01.099 --> 00:18:03.700 stuff so a lot of like the fire service like 00:18:03.700 --> 00:18:05.619 well my dad was a firefighter and you know grandpa 00:18:05.619 --> 00:18:07.160 was a firefighter my uncle was a firefighter 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:10.039 you know same thing with the with the mind so 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:15.759 with my dad he as soon as he got done with school 00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:20.700 my grandpa which we call papa art hill um you 00:18:20.700 --> 00:18:23.819 know Papa gave my dad literally, I think it was, 00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:26.019 how much was it? It was like 50 or a hundred 00:18:26.019 --> 00:18:29.740 bucks. I forget what it was. He literally gave 00:18:29.740 --> 00:18:31.940 him 50 or a hundred bucks. He's like, go to the 00:18:31.940 --> 00:18:35.180 union hall, tell him art sent you and you're 00:18:35.180 --> 00:18:38.220 going to get your card. So he did, he went down 00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:40.140 to union hall, gave him the, you know, gave him 00:18:40.140 --> 00:18:42.880 the money and they, he got his, he got his union 00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:46.519 card. And so at that point he was going to be 00:18:46.519 --> 00:18:50.490 in the mill rights with my grandpa. So my grandpa 00:18:50.490 --> 00:18:53.450 would take my dad, you'd request him as part 00:18:53.450 --> 00:18:56.470 of his crew, and then he taught him basically 00:18:56.470 --> 00:18:58.690 a lot of the stuff that he needed to know, pipe 00:18:58.690 --> 00:19:02.609 fitting, millerite work, you know, all those 00:19:02.609 --> 00:19:05.630 different trade skills. So then when he got a 00:19:05.630 --> 00:19:08.589 full -time job at the mine, my dad was in maintenance. 00:19:08.809 --> 00:19:11.690 So they were constantly going around and making 00:19:11.690 --> 00:19:13.930 sure the, you know, machines were working and, 00:19:13.970 --> 00:19:15.750 you know, making sure everything was working 00:19:15.750 --> 00:19:18.490 appropriately and, you know, all that stuff. 00:19:19.480 --> 00:19:22.380 Well, the thing with the mine is he worked shift 00:19:22.380 --> 00:19:27.220 work. So he would work. Oh, what was it? He'd 00:19:27.220 --> 00:19:33.960 work like four days of days. Then he'd work four 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:38.000 days of nights or afternoon shift. And then he'd 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:40.180 work four days of nights and then he'd have a 00:19:40.180 --> 00:19:44.839 few days off. So as a kid growing up, you had 00:19:44.839 --> 00:19:48.200 to be quiet, like shut up. you know because dad 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:52.039 was either at work or he was home sleeping to 00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:54.700 work the night you know what i mean so you had 00:19:54.700 --> 00:19:56.539 to be out of the house like go find something 00:19:56.539 --> 00:19:59.319 to do you know and my mom had always worked as 00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:02.680 well so you know it was classic you know latchkey 00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:05.240 like hey there's there's stuff in the fridge 00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:08.980 when you get home from school and you know shut 00:20:08.980 --> 00:20:11.099 up and be quiet you know don't bother anybody 00:20:11.099 --> 00:20:14.759 you know what i mean so you learned i you know 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:18.410 you'll learn real real quick that You know, in 00:20:18.410 --> 00:20:21.630 order to get ahead in the world, you've got to 00:20:21.630 --> 00:20:23.430 do there's certain steps you have to do. You 00:20:23.430 --> 00:20:25.329 have to work hard. You have to get education. 00:20:25.569 --> 00:20:27.190 You have to get training. You have to do all 00:20:27.190 --> 00:20:30.190 these things and earn your way through, you know, 00:20:30.190 --> 00:20:31.990 call it merit based, all the different stuff 00:20:31.990 --> 00:20:35.089 you have to go through the process. Right. And 00:20:35.089 --> 00:20:37.950 so, you know, I learned that really, really early 00:20:37.950 --> 00:20:40.849 on that. Hey, you know, be quiet. Your dad's 00:20:40.849 --> 00:20:43.190 sleeping or whatever's going on. Or because I 00:20:43.190 --> 00:20:47.049 was the oldest, no one else was home. Mark is 00:20:47.049 --> 00:20:49.930 in charge of my two little sisters. So I'm making 00:20:49.930 --> 00:20:52.390 sure that they are quiet, that they have what 00:20:52.390 --> 00:20:55.269 they, you know. So it's just, that's just kind 00:20:55.269 --> 00:20:57.150 of what happened. That was the, you know, the 00:20:57.150 --> 00:21:00.269 beauty or the downfall of the 80s and early 90s. 00:21:00.269 --> 00:21:03.569 That's the way it was, you know. And, you know, 00:21:03.589 --> 00:21:05.569 you learn to be self -reliant. You learn to, 00:21:05.650 --> 00:21:07.369 you know, take care of the problems. If you've 00:21:07.369 --> 00:21:09.410 got a problem, you take care of it. You know, 00:21:09.450 --> 00:21:12.740 you figure it out. You know, and there's no Internet 00:21:12.740 --> 00:21:14.779 to look things up. There's no YouTube to find 00:21:14.779 --> 00:21:17.960 a video. There's none of that stuff. You know, 00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:20.119 you've got to figure it out on your own. So, 00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:22.700 you know, a lot of the things that, you know, 00:21:22.700 --> 00:21:25.380 I learned from my dad and my grandpa, too, was, 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:30.019 you know, it takes it takes sacrifice to truly 00:21:30.019 --> 00:21:33.500 get what you want done for your family, you know, 00:21:33.500 --> 00:21:36.160 and provide for them the life that you want to 00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:39.099 provide for them. or to save the money that you 00:21:39.099 --> 00:21:41.579 need to save to do the things that you want to 00:21:41.579 --> 00:21:45.460 do. And, you know, those are all very good life 00:21:45.460 --> 00:21:47.400 lessons that I learned when I was growing up 00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:49.960 that, you know, carrying on forward now, you 00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:53.420 know, myself, you know, I've tried to instill 00:21:53.420 --> 00:21:55.759 both in my daughters and in the things that I've 00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:59.599 done myself. So what about from the union perspective? 00:21:59.740 --> 00:22:02.680 On one hand, you saw union busting happening 00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:05.720 that literally cost you your career in the education 00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:09.109 space. We have a union here in the fire service. 00:22:10.349 --> 00:22:13.990 What is the strength of the mining union? And 00:22:13.990 --> 00:22:17.750 then what did you see that worked well with that 00:22:17.750 --> 00:22:20.630 union that maybe we need to lean into in education 00:22:20.630 --> 00:22:25.470 or firefighting? Well, the thing that's always 00:22:25.470 --> 00:22:27.569 interesting, especially with unions, because 00:22:27.569 --> 00:22:29.930 I've been a union president, I've been a steward. 00:22:30.529 --> 00:22:34.809 So when you're in the upper echelons of the union, 00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:39.400 It's a lot like being a fire chief, right? Everyone 00:22:39.400 --> 00:22:43.480 kind of looks from the down, like from the bottom, 00:22:43.539 --> 00:22:46.220 like bottom up, right? And you think, why aren't 00:22:46.220 --> 00:22:48.059 they doing this? Why aren't they doing that? 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:51.799 They need to be doing more, blah, blah, blah, 00:22:51.819 --> 00:22:54.819 blah, blah. Insert usual gripes and complaints 00:22:54.819 --> 00:22:57.940 here, right? The thing is, once you get to those 00:22:57.940 --> 00:23:01.440 positions, especially at those top levels, it's 00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:04.059 all about politics at that point, literally and 00:23:04.059 --> 00:23:08.339 figuratively. It's trying to not it's trying 00:23:08.339 --> 00:23:10.299 not to upset, you know, from the school day when 00:23:10.299 --> 00:23:12.940 I was I was a school board president or the school, 00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:16.000 our union president for the teachers union. So 00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:19.220 I wanted to have a good relationship with the 00:23:19.220 --> 00:23:21.680 superintendent of the school district. Right. 00:23:21.799 --> 00:23:25.619 They want to piss him off because if him and 00:23:25.619 --> 00:23:27.819 I got into a disagreement or if he didn't him 00:23:27.819 --> 00:23:29.920 and I didn't see eye to eye or, you know, whatever 00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:34.039 the issue was. Then when it came time to contract 00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:37.839 negotiations, instead of having, you know, like 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:39.440 you and me right now sitting down and having 00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:41.859 a discussion like, OK, this is what we'd like 00:23:41.859 --> 00:23:44.220 to do. This is what we'd like to offer, you know, 00:23:44.220 --> 00:23:46.220 a back and forth instead of having, you know, 00:23:46.220 --> 00:23:48.940 an applicable, you know, actual discussion. It 00:23:48.940 --> 00:23:50.819 would be, no, we're going to go to arbitration. 00:23:50.839 --> 00:23:52.720 I'm getting the lawyer and we're not going to 00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:57.440 talk. Well, the negotiations are now over and 00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:01.000 now we're left to an arbitration judge or lawyers 00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:04.579 now that we have to settle whatever the disagreement 00:24:04.579 --> 00:24:07.619 is. It's much better to have a discussion and 00:24:07.619 --> 00:24:10.839 have a conversation, right? So you have to grease 00:24:10.839 --> 00:24:14.140 the wheels. You got to be a politician where 00:24:14.140 --> 00:24:17.960 we have to work together. So we have to go to 00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:20.160 lunches. We have to go to dinners. We have to 00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:23.200 do these things to try to make sure that. Our 00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:27.680 relationship is good and on speaking terms. From 00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:29.819 the bottom, we don't see that. We don't see all 00:24:29.819 --> 00:24:32.900 the hand -holding and the handshaking. We don't 00:24:32.900 --> 00:24:34.579 see that from the bottom. All we see from the 00:24:34.579 --> 00:24:37.279 bottom is they're not doing enough. We need more 00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:39.460 overtime pay. We need this. We need that, right? 00:24:39.799 --> 00:24:43.440 And to get those things is like literally the 00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:46.259 phrase of getting blood out of a turnip. It's 00:24:46.259 --> 00:24:50.839 incredibly difficult, right? Everyone would love 00:24:50.839 --> 00:24:54.000 to have... you know freaking eight percent raises 00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:57.220 every year and everyone would love to have you 00:24:57.220 --> 00:24:59.779 know no deductibles for our health insurance 00:24:59.779 --> 00:25:02.099 and everyone would you know of course we would 00:25:02.099 --> 00:25:04.299 everyone would love those different things right 00:25:04.299 --> 00:25:08.799 but it's just not reality you know the administration 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:13.420 and the municipality or whatever they are set 00:25:13.420 --> 00:25:16.380 with their they're literally their hands are 00:25:16.380 --> 00:25:20.319 tied with what they are able to do be it from 00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:24.039 a, you know, from a standpoint of their tax base, 00:25:24.220 --> 00:25:26.619 you know, and it depends on where you live, right? 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:29.480 Orlando's got a different tax base. They've got 00:25:29.480 --> 00:25:31.640 different hotel revenue that are coming in. There's 00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:33.700 different, you know, Florida's got different 00:25:33.700 --> 00:25:36.220 laws than the state of Wisconsin. Wisconsin's 00:25:36.220 --> 00:25:38.720 got different municipal codes where, you know, 00:25:38.740 --> 00:25:41.539 our state, you know, we have different funding 00:25:41.539 --> 00:25:43.799 regulations that, you know, so it's just, it's 00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:48.880 amazing where we are literally 50. People always 00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:51.380 forget, well, it's the U .S. system. When you 00:25:51.380 --> 00:25:54.220 go back over to U .K., why does the U .S. do 00:25:54.220 --> 00:25:56.359 this thing? They should do this differently or 00:25:56.359 --> 00:25:59.799 you should do this or whatever. People forget 00:25:59.799 --> 00:26:03.940 the United States of America, we are 50 independent 00:26:03.940 --> 00:26:10.099 states that come together to form a federal democracy 00:26:10.099 --> 00:26:16.039 republic. You know, imagine the state of Florida 00:26:16.039 --> 00:26:20.599 with like 25 million plus people. Right. That's 00:26:20.599 --> 00:26:23.460 as big as Canada, the entire country. Right. 00:26:23.700 --> 00:26:27.339 So Florida, you know, is different than here 00:26:27.339 --> 00:26:29.460 in Wisconsin. We've barely got eight million 00:26:29.460 --> 00:26:33.420 people. Right. Or think of Alaska. You know, 00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:36.019 Alaska is a third the size of the continental 00:26:36.019 --> 00:26:39.880 United States. But yet the population is, you 00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:43.420 know what I mean? So we are all different. Because 00:26:43.420 --> 00:26:46.079 we all have separate and different laws. So when 00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:49.319 it comes to union regulations on a national scope, 00:26:49.579 --> 00:26:52.579 right? Like say the IAFF, right? The International 00:26:52.579 --> 00:26:56.019 Associated Firefighters or even the fire chiefs, 00:26:56.019 --> 00:26:59.799 right? You know, they have separate, there's 00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:02.980 things they can do nationally to talk for all 00:27:02.980 --> 00:27:06.119 of us. on a national level dealing with like 00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:10.299 the you know the afg grants or maybe the nfa 00:27:10.299 --> 00:27:13.200 courses or things like that or maybe trying to 00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:18.000 trying to spur on the the the cancer you know 00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:21.299 uh databases or trying to get uh the ability 00:27:21.299 --> 00:27:23.640 for people to collect social security earlier 00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:27.960 as a firefighter things like that right there's 00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:30.400 national things they can do on a national level 00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:33.779 as a union base but Nine out of 10 things that 00:27:33.779 --> 00:27:37.319 we decide or that we that really affects us is 00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:40.119 on the local level. It's not on that national 00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:43.660 level. Right. There's there's a little bit. Yeah, 00:27:43.740 --> 00:27:46.259 sure. We can, you know, maybe poke someone to 00:27:46.259 --> 00:27:48.180 say, hey, give us a good word when we apply for 00:27:48.180 --> 00:27:50.579 this AFG grant or the safer grant or whatever. 00:27:50.740 --> 00:27:54.140 But, you know, it's not really up to our union 00:27:54.140 --> 00:27:57.259 members to to help us get those things. Right. 00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:00.859 It's all about local. It's about. what we can 00:28:00.859 --> 00:28:03.380 do with your local base salaries, about what 00:28:03.380 --> 00:28:05.779 you can do with your local health insurance coverages, 00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:09.319 your local liabilities dealing with, you know, 00:28:09.339 --> 00:28:12.819 workers' comp, you know, coverages, you know, 00:28:12.839 --> 00:28:16.079 duty disability stuff, things of those natures. 00:28:16.259 --> 00:28:20.299 That's what the union needs to concentrate more 00:28:20.299 --> 00:28:24.319 on. I think a lot of people, like I said, people 00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:28.799 get too into the weeds of national politics and 00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:36.160 national BS when it's local first. There are 00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:39.859 some things that affect us nationally, but nine 00:28:39.859 --> 00:28:42.779 out of 10 of them is going to be right down the 00:28:42.779 --> 00:28:46.380 street at your local city hall or the municipality 00:28:46.380 --> 00:28:49.099 government center, wherever you're at. That's 00:28:49.099 --> 00:28:51.420 where... that's where the nuts and the bolts 00:28:51.420 --> 00:28:53.039 and the actual, where the rubber meets the road. 00:28:53.180 --> 00:28:55.799 That's where it happens. It's not on these national 00:28:55.799 --> 00:28:58.759 big, Oh, you know what someone's doing or what 00:28:58.759 --> 00:29:00.819 they're not doing or what things are cut or, 00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:03.779 you know, it's at the local level that we need 00:29:03.779 --> 00:29:06.579 to spend more of our time doing those things. 00:29:06.619 --> 00:29:09.000 And like I said, a lot of it comes, we don't 00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:11.660 see from the bottom what happens on that top 00:29:11.660 --> 00:29:14.380 level. And it's all about politics. It's all 00:29:14.380 --> 00:29:17.349 about trying to, you know, trying to make the 00:29:17.349 --> 00:29:19.690 best out of a lot of bad situations. It really 00:29:19.690 --> 00:29:23.630 is. Well, I mean, I, firstly, I'm nauseated by 00:29:23.630 --> 00:29:26.170 the fact that a group, a room of grownups can't 00:29:26.170 --> 00:29:28.990 make a decision. So this whole politicking grease 00:29:28.990 --> 00:29:31.630 in the wheel, like that needs to go full stop. 00:29:31.769 --> 00:29:37.009 It sucks. And then on a national standard, one 00:29:37.009 --> 00:29:38.990 conversation should have been happening for, 00:29:39.029 --> 00:29:42.650 I would argue 20 years now is a national standard 00:29:42.650 --> 00:29:45.470 work week for the fire service. And the current 00:29:45.470 --> 00:29:49.289 IFF leadership are in the city of Boston, which 00:29:49.289 --> 00:29:52.970 is a 42 hour work week. So nationally, where 00:29:52.970 --> 00:29:55.470 is that voice saying, hey, rest of the country 00:29:55.470 --> 00:29:58.609 that are working 56 plus hours, we need to fight 00:29:58.609 --> 00:30:00.869 for you to have the same work week. So, yeah, 00:30:00.930 --> 00:30:03.049 I agree. There's some minutiae like, do you get 00:30:03.049 --> 00:30:04.690 polo shirts and all that kind of stuff? Yeah, 00:30:04.710 --> 00:30:08.130 that's a very local thing. But the simple standard 00:30:08.130 --> 00:30:11.680 of living, the working. week is standardized 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:14.519 in every other national institution trucking 00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:18.900 aviation shipping but our profession as long 00:30:18.900 --> 00:30:21.140 as i've been you know in uniform and then back 00:30:21.140 --> 00:30:24.240 out the other end has never even mentioned why 00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:26.400 so many of our firefighters are working these 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:30.000 insane work weeks so this is where you know two 00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:32.039 things that are pulling from what you said firstly 00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:34.960 if grown -ups can't talk without needing dinners 00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:38.099 and lunches and massages and shame on you you're 00:30:38.099 --> 00:30:41.220 in the wrong fucking position And secondly, if 00:30:41.220 --> 00:30:43.319 you don't have a backbone to advocate for the 00:30:43.319 --> 00:30:46.640 people and you yourself and enjoying a 42 -hour 00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:51.839 work week, also shame on you. Yeah, the problem 00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:54.960 is, and it goes back to, like I said, it's hard 00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:58.680 to do things nationally because every state's 00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:01.200 different. But that's not the same with, I'm 00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:02.900 saying, trucking, shipping, all those ones as 00:31:02.900 --> 00:31:06.039 a national standard. You as a pilot cannot fly 00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:09.779 for X amount of hours. You are regulated to have 00:31:09.779 --> 00:31:15.660 a break. It does depend, though. For example, 00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:17.480 the state of Wisconsin, when they passed Act 00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:19.660 10, they got rid of the teachers' collective 00:31:19.660 --> 00:31:22.799 bargaining rights. Police and fire were exempt 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:27.259 from Act 10. So the police and fire unions were 00:31:27.259 --> 00:31:29.759 exempted from those collective bargaining right 00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:34.990 pull -aways from that law. Now, why was that? 00:31:35.049 --> 00:31:38.769 Well, because the police and fire unions lobbied, 00:31:38.769 --> 00:31:42.829 played politics. And then they so it's it's it's 00:31:42.829 --> 00:31:45.809 it's not they're looking out for themselves. 00:31:46.349 --> 00:31:48.009 They're looking out for their best interests. 00:31:48.069 --> 00:31:50.430 But at the same time, you're then screwing the 00:31:50.430 --> 00:31:53.009 teachers. Right. Or you're then screwing the 00:31:53.009 --> 00:31:55.069 nurses or you're then screw. You know what I 00:31:55.069 --> 00:31:59.789 mean? So and as a union, my number one, you know, 00:31:59.789 --> 00:32:03.049 my number one job and concern is just the firefighters. 00:32:03.990 --> 00:32:07.869 You know, and the Teamsters, their number one 00:32:07.869 --> 00:32:10.369 concern and their number one job are the truckers. 00:32:10.390 --> 00:32:13.190 Right. Same thing with the, you know, the airline 00:32:13.190 --> 00:32:16.789 pilots, the, you know, we, you know, air traffic 00:32:16.789 --> 00:32:18.569 controllers is a little separate. It's a little 00:32:18.569 --> 00:32:20.769 different because of the number and what happened 00:32:20.769 --> 00:32:22.349 to them back in the 80s under Reagan. But at 00:32:22.349 --> 00:32:26.509 the same time, every single union is only interested 00:32:26.509 --> 00:32:29.230 in their own selective collective self -interest. 00:32:31.470 --> 00:32:34.130 And unfortunately, you're right. And fortunately, 00:32:34.430 --> 00:32:39.230 when push comes to shove, the union is going 00:32:39.230 --> 00:32:41.509 to take the position of what's best for them 00:32:41.509 --> 00:32:45.109 and their membership only. So if that means leaving 00:32:45.109 --> 00:32:47.569 the teachers hanging out to dry, like what happened 00:32:47.569 --> 00:32:50.710 here, then that's what's going to happen. You 00:32:50.710 --> 00:32:54.079 know what I mean? I can't fault them for that. 00:32:54.180 --> 00:32:56.700 I, you know, I don't blame them for doing that, 00:32:56.759 --> 00:32:58.920 you know, because they are doing what their job 00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:01.200 is. They are supposed to be looking out just 00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:04.339 for their membership and just for, you know, 00:33:04.339 --> 00:33:07.460 what's in the best interest of the, of the firefighters 00:33:07.460 --> 00:33:10.720 of the state of Wisconsin. And, you know, God 00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:13.359 bless them for doing it. Right. But at the same 00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:17.900 time, you know, there's, it's goes back to politics. 00:33:17.980 --> 00:33:20.640 I, I totally agree with you, James. Politics 00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:24.799 sucks. It's a, Big freaking, you know, yeah, 00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:28.599 it's a giant albatross and it shouldn't happen 00:33:28.599 --> 00:33:31.880 like that, you know, and things should be different, 00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:34.799 you know, and it would be awesome if it was different. 00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:37.519 It would be great if it would be different, you 00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:41.339 know, but, you know, unfortunately, the system 00:33:41.339 --> 00:33:44.559 that we have is the system we have and we can 00:33:44.559 --> 00:33:47.940 only make, you know, small adjustments to how 00:33:47.940 --> 00:33:52.299 things are. And, you know. It's almost to the 00:33:52.299 --> 00:33:54.559 point, at least a little bit, depending on what 00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:56.579 you want to talk about, but it's, it's to the 00:33:56.579 --> 00:34:00.680 point where you have to, you have to choose the, 00:34:00.700 --> 00:34:04.500 choose your poison, right? I can choose to take 00:34:04.500 --> 00:34:08.219 the high road and not to, you know, to be a hundred 00:34:08.219 --> 00:34:10.340 percent totally committed with all these different 00:34:10.340 --> 00:34:14.440 things and just be the, the, you know, the, the 00:34:14.440 --> 00:34:17.840 solid stonework in the, in the foundation, or 00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:21.989 I can try to get the best deal for my, for my 00:34:21.989 --> 00:34:24.789 people that are under me that, yeah, it may, 00:34:24.889 --> 00:34:27.369 you know, some of it may suck, but a lot of it 00:34:27.369 --> 00:34:30.269 may be great. You know, maybe it's a 80, 20 thing 00:34:30.269 --> 00:34:33.329 where 80 % of it's fantastic, but we're still 00:34:33.329 --> 00:34:36.630 missing on that 20%. So then it's like, okay, 00:34:36.670 --> 00:34:38.289 then you come to your membership. You say, listen, 00:34:38.469 --> 00:34:40.349 this is the deal that's presented before us. 00:34:40.750 --> 00:34:42.909 You know, we're a union. We can decide, do we 00:34:42.909 --> 00:34:45.090 want to take the 80 % and get most of what we 00:34:45.090 --> 00:34:49.130 want? Or do we want to get zero? I'm not talking 00:34:49.130 --> 00:34:53.230 about negotiations. I'm talking about a standardized 00:34:53.230 --> 00:34:56.349 work week that will impact mental health, cancer, 00:34:56.670 --> 00:34:58.969 relationships. I mean, all the things that we 00:34:58.969 --> 00:35:01.690 suffer from, it's not mentioned. So it's not 00:35:01.690 --> 00:35:05.190 a negotiation. It's an absolute must. What's 00:35:05.190 --> 00:35:07.489 happening in Florida is there is people that 00:35:07.489 --> 00:35:09.389 are starting to realize this. And the crazy thing 00:35:09.389 --> 00:35:12.889 is, I am by no means an economist. I'm not a 00:35:12.889 --> 00:35:15.750 business person. But when you look forensically 00:35:15.750 --> 00:35:18.510 at the economics, the reason that these people 00:35:18.510 --> 00:35:21.050 are changing is because they're drowning in debt 00:35:21.050 --> 00:35:23.130 because of the vacancies they have in the fire 00:35:23.130 --> 00:35:26.550 service. So this is a national recruitment crisis. 00:35:27.150 --> 00:35:29.190 So it's not even a negotiation. You're literally 00:35:29.190 --> 00:35:31.570 pointing out to these cities and counties, if 00:35:31.570 --> 00:35:33.230 you do not change, you're going to lose your 00:35:33.230 --> 00:35:36.010 fire department. So this is a great opportunity 00:35:36.010 --> 00:35:39.170 to finally change. But this isn't about, you 00:35:39.170 --> 00:35:42.579 know... protecting a few dollars of a pay raise 00:35:42.579 --> 00:35:43.900 or anything like that. This is something that 00:35:43.900 --> 00:35:46.500 is literally the elephant in the room or the 00:35:46.500 --> 00:35:48.920 herd of elephants in the room in the physical, 00:35:49.019 --> 00:35:51.860 mental health crisis, relationship, I mean, everything 00:35:51.860 --> 00:35:55.239 that we suffer from. And yet, you know, when 00:35:55.239 --> 00:35:57.420 it's cancer, oh, we've got this, you know, this 00:35:57.420 --> 00:35:59.659 study in Miami and they're looking at carcinogens 00:35:59.659 --> 00:36:01.679 and, okay, that's great. But what are you doing 00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:04.139 about sleep deprivation that is a known carcinogen? 00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:06.539 The mental health thing, oh, we've got the IFF 00:36:06.539 --> 00:36:09.599 peer support team. That's still reactive. Really? 00:36:09.800 --> 00:36:11.980 What are you doing about the thing that's known 00:36:11.980 --> 00:36:15.099 to break down the brain, the mental health, the 00:36:15.099 --> 00:36:17.519 sleep deprivation? So this is what angers me 00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:19.860 is I've been talking about this for eight and 00:36:19.860 --> 00:36:22.900 a half years just on this podcast alone. And 00:36:22.900 --> 00:36:25.239 there's, you know, real experts that have been 00:36:25.239 --> 00:36:27.440 talking about this for a long, long time. So 00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:29.440 this isn't about all what will they give us? 00:36:29.460 --> 00:36:32.199 This is about us as a united front standing up 00:36:32.199 --> 00:36:35.260 and saying this needs to change. you know, like 00:36:35.260 --> 00:36:37.500 the suffragettes, like the people that opposed, 00:36:37.860 --> 00:36:40.019 you know, child labor, which is being reversed 00:36:40.019 --> 00:36:42.820 in some states again, which blows my mind. But 00:36:42.820 --> 00:36:45.239 this is not about negotiations and politicking. 00:36:45.360 --> 00:36:48.019 This is about all of us standing side by side 00:36:48.019 --> 00:36:50.219 and saying enough is enough. And if the union 00:36:50.219 --> 00:36:52.940 isn't going to fix it, then all right, well then, 00:36:52.940 --> 00:36:55.400 you know, whatever, we're still going to demand 00:36:55.400 --> 00:36:58.739 this is changing because every single day there 00:36:58.739 --> 00:37:01.380 are Maltese crosses with black bands in them. 00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:04.119 This is the thing that I'm talking about. Meanwhile, 00:37:04.710 --> 00:37:07.349 nothing is happening from and again i'm not tarring 00:37:07.349 --> 00:37:09.449 everyone with the same brush but if you are a 00:37:09.449 --> 00:37:11.670 union that's this opposing fitness standards 00:37:11.670 --> 00:37:13.630 it's not talking about the work week or opposing 00:37:13.630 --> 00:37:15.989 it because you want more overtime or whatever 00:37:15.989 --> 00:37:20.829 the thing is you are part of the problem yeah 00:37:20.829 --> 00:37:28.030 no i i i agree with you i do part of though that 00:37:28.030 --> 00:37:34.719 like you said the work week thing For me, I see 00:37:34.719 --> 00:37:37.840 I look at it a little different. So for me, I 00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:39.360 understand what you're saying. And it would be 00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:41.719 great if we could do it nationally. However, 00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:47.179 like I said, every state's different. So every 00:37:47.179 --> 00:37:50.360 state has different laws about what is, you know, 00:37:50.380 --> 00:37:54.139 accepted. So in our contract, in our local contract, 00:37:54.300 --> 00:37:56.940 our work week is specified in our contract. How 00:37:56.940 --> 00:38:00.210 many hours do your cops work? I have no idea. 00:38:00.369 --> 00:38:03.150 Probably 40 hours. I never bothered what their 00:38:03.150 --> 00:38:06.809 contract said. I guarantee you it's 40 hours. 00:38:06.809 --> 00:38:09.230 This is my point. It doesn't matter at this stage. 00:38:09.250 --> 00:38:12.250 I know they work 12s. I think it's some definition 00:38:12.250 --> 00:38:15.929 or some variation of 12s. I know they work 12s. 00:38:15.929 --> 00:38:17.909 I think they work like three 12s and then they're 00:38:17.909 --> 00:38:20.409 off for like three days or something like that. 00:38:20.570 --> 00:38:24.829 But to make it even worse, you want to talk about 00:38:24.829 --> 00:38:27.710 making things not better but worse. there are 00:38:27.710 --> 00:38:30.570 many departments that are switching to the 4896 00:38:30.570 --> 00:38:35.389 shift, which is insane, which is insane. You 00:38:35.389 --> 00:38:38.809 know, our shift that when I, they are my local 00:38:38.809 --> 00:38:43.190 department just switched to the 4896, which I 00:38:43.190 --> 00:38:46.070 can't believe that they did that, but they did. 00:38:46.309 --> 00:38:49.650 We, when I was working, it was 24. It was the 00:38:49.650 --> 00:38:54.309 California swing 24 on 24 off 24 on 24 off 24 00:38:54.309 --> 00:38:59.590 on. Then we had 72 off. So that's the way we 00:38:59.590 --> 00:39:02.110 had it, and it worked out fine. But even that 00:39:02.110 --> 00:39:06.230 is a bad swing. 100%. When I was down in Alabama 00:39:06.230 --> 00:39:11.250 doing my hazmat technician, we had a guy instructing 00:39:11.250 --> 00:39:14.110 us from Washington, D .C., and their schedule 00:39:14.110 --> 00:39:19.550 was a 24 with a 72 off. yeah which is what the 00:39:19.550 --> 00:39:21.769 national that's what i'm saying the whole northeast 00:39:21.769 --> 00:39:26.250 works that would be absolutely awesome if we 00:39:26.250 --> 00:39:29.130 could do that you know new york fdny i forget 00:39:29.130 --> 00:39:31.630 the last time they they run a weird modified 00:39:31.630 --> 00:39:35.429 like they'll work a 10 then they work a 14 you 00:39:35.429 --> 00:39:37.909 know and then they've got a weird kind of uh 00:39:37.909 --> 00:39:41.110 they break their 24 day down into you know stuff 00:39:41.110 --> 00:39:45.030 like that but you know there's a lot of different 00:39:45.030 --> 00:39:47.829 there's a lot of different ways to do it This 00:39:47.829 --> 00:39:50.730 is the problem though, James, everybody wants 00:39:50.730 --> 00:39:54.909 something differently. So for like, just as a, 00:39:54.909 --> 00:39:57.309 for example, and this goes back to the fricking 00:39:57.309 --> 00:40:00.369 politics again, say, say the city of Wausau wants 00:40:00.369 --> 00:40:05.630 to change to the, the 2472, right? That means 00:40:05.630 --> 00:40:09.030 we have to add an entire fourth shift, right? 00:40:09.090 --> 00:40:10.670 You can't do that with a three platoon system. 00:40:10.869 --> 00:40:14.090 It has to be four. So that means that we would 00:40:14.090 --> 00:40:16.590 have to hire the city of Wausau would have to 00:40:16.590 --> 00:40:20.719 hire. an additional an entire an entire crew 00:40:20.719 --> 00:40:24.880 to do that kind of shift work which would mean 00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:27.480 i don't even know how many millions of dollars 00:40:27.480 --> 00:40:31.300 that would mean is the city of wasa fully staffed 00:40:31.300 --> 00:40:32.840 now have they got people banging on the door 00:40:32.840 --> 00:40:34.880 to work for them has they got got a huge list 00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:38.059 like used to have 20 years ago no exactly this 00:40:38.059 --> 00:40:41.019 is the problem and people are wising up at the 00:40:41.019 --> 00:40:44.300 working work week now and it's creating vacancies 00:40:44.300 --> 00:40:46.159 which is creating overtime which is where the 00:40:46.159 --> 00:40:49.320 money is for these extra people but people i 00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:52.420 mean that's the thing people get hurt they're 00:40:52.420 --> 00:40:54.380 out on workers comp and they're out on light 00:40:54.380 --> 00:40:56.500 duty for how many days and they're doing you 00:40:56.500 --> 00:40:59.980 know they're you know yeah absolutely i don't 00:40:59.980 --> 00:41:07.960 part of it i don't think the Recruitment and 00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:11.880 retention problems are from the work week. I 00:41:11.880 --> 00:41:14.519 really don't. I think the recruitment and retention 00:41:14.519 --> 00:41:17.960 problems are really a lot of it stems from the 00:41:17.960 --> 00:41:21.219 fact that our entire culture and the history 00:41:21.219 --> 00:41:24.800 and the way things happen in our local communities 00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:27.420 is completely different than it was when I was 00:41:27.420 --> 00:41:31.780 growing up as a kid, right? There's very few 00:41:31.780 --> 00:41:34.000 people that are volunteer firefighters anymore. 00:41:35.500 --> 00:41:37.739 For instance, in the state of Florida, there's 00:41:37.739 --> 00:41:39.460 very few fire departments that are volunteer, 00:41:39.639 --> 00:41:43.000 right? Most of it's countywide system. They're 00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:46.400 all full time. If you're a kid, for instance, 00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:48.639 in the state of Florida, if you want to go and 00:41:48.639 --> 00:41:51.579 be a firefighter, you go to your local community 00:41:51.579 --> 00:41:53.820 or technical college, where then you have to 00:41:53.820 --> 00:41:57.420 pay for your firefighter one class, your EMT 00:41:57.420 --> 00:42:01.619 class, you pay all that 100%, right? That's the 00:42:01.619 --> 00:42:03.710 state of Florida rules. Well, guess what? Here 00:42:03.710 --> 00:42:06.050 in Wisconsin, in Wisconsin, it's completely different. 00:42:06.250 --> 00:42:09.110 In Wisconsin, you can get your firefighter certifications 00:42:09.110 --> 00:42:12.869 for free. You don't pay a dime. You can get your 00:42:12.869 --> 00:42:17.110 EMT license for free. You don't pay a dime. Well, 00:42:17.190 --> 00:42:19.590 if we're getting, if you can, if you're a kid 00:42:19.590 --> 00:42:21.889 in Wisconsin and you can get everything for free, 00:42:22.030 --> 00:42:25.230 literally all of your education, fire one, fire 00:42:25.230 --> 00:42:29.650 two, driver operator. Pumper, Ariel, you can 00:42:29.650 --> 00:42:31.949 get everything for free. Absolutely free, James. 00:42:32.050 --> 00:42:35.389 100 % free. Why the hell are we having recruitment 00:42:35.389 --> 00:42:38.590 and retention issues? Well, I can tell you. I 00:42:38.590 --> 00:42:41.829 can tell you. It's not the sleep. It's not the 00:42:41.829 --> 00:42:48.489 sleep for us. In Wisconsin here, it's not a sleep 00:42:48.489 --> 00:42:50.730 thing. Even though I think that that schedule, 00:42:50.769 --> 00:42:53.329 which my department went to, is crazy. I would 00:42:53.329 --> 00:42:56.119 never want to work it myself. It's not for me. 00:42:56.119 --> 00:42:58.920 That's not the answer. For me, the answer is 00:42:58.920 --> 00:43:02.059 kids aren't growing up in the firehouse anymore. 00:43:02.599 --> 00:43:04.599 They're not they're not growing up in the firehouse 00:43:04.599 --> 00:43:07.400 like I did. Rolling hoes with my dad while he 00:43:07.400 --> 00:43:10.320 was on the fire station. They're hearing my dad's 00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:13.400 pager go off at night and him leaving the middle 00:43:13.400 --> 00:43:16.900 of the night to go to go to a fire. Right. In 00:43:16.900 --> 00:43:19.659 my little town where I grew up, when there was 00:43:19.659 --> 00:43:22.239 a fire, there was a siren. It was like a tornado 00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:26.139 siren that went off. for the whole town. That, 00:43:26.199 --> 00:43:28.619 hey, there's a fire, get to the fire hall, get 00:43:28.619 --> 00:43:31.300 your butt on the truck and get going. Everyone's 00:43:31.300 --> 00:43:34.260 dad was a part of that system, right? I rode 00:43:34.260 --> 00:43:36.139 the fight. Like I said, I rode those fire trucks 00:43:36.139 --> 00:43:38.639 in the parades, throwing out candy to the other 00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:41.340 kids. My Cub Scout meetings were all at the fire 00:43:41.340 --> 00:43:43.440 station. My birthday parties were all at the 00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:46.500 fire station. My friends, their dads were in 00:43:46.500 --> 00:43:53.000 the fire station. It was a community thing. Why 00:43:53.000 --> 00:43:55.239 did your dad not want you mining anymore? Why 00:43:55.239 --> 00:43:57.719 did your dad not want you mining anymore? Why 00:43:57.719 --> 00:44:01.460 didn't he want you to be a miner too? He wanted 00:44:01.460 --> 00:44:04.139 me to not be in the mine. That was not the fire 00:44:04.139 --> 00:44:06.019 department. The fire department was volunteer. 00:44:06.380 --> 00:44:08.519 So no, but I'm saying this is what's happening 00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:12.300 now. Like the best recruitment tool that we have 00:44:12.300 --> 00:44:15.079 are firefighters. The best recruitment tool the 00:44:15.079 --> 00:44:17.500 military used to have were the members of the 00:44:17.500 --> 00:44:20.260 military. But you're getting a generation now 00:44:20.260 --> 00:44:22.440 that are being worked into the ground. I don't 00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:24.179 know your specific department. If you barely 00:44:24.179 --> 00:44:27.739 run any calls and 56 hours is a wonderful experience 00:44:27.739 --> 00:44:30.219 for your firefighters, then I'm not using you 00:44:30.219 --> 00:44:32.000 as an example. But every fire department that 00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:35.619 I've worked for that is running most of 24 hours 00:44:35.619 --> 00:44:38.239 at a time for 56 hours a week, that's getting 00:44:38.239 --> 00:44:41.260 their mandatory overtime for like 20 years of 00:44:41.260 --> 00:44:45.190 my career. My generation. are not telling their 00:44:45.190 --> 00:44:47.449 children, you should be a firefighter. And I 00:44:47.449 --> 00:44:48.949 would argue it's probably the same thing that 00:44:48.949 --> 00:44:51.389 your dad as a miner was telling you, I don't 00:44:51.389 --> 00:44:53.889 want you to go in the mines. And so, yes, it's 00:44:53.889 --> 00:44:55.730 a different generation with this young group. 00:44:55.769 --> 00:44:57.449 But the thing is, people are looking always at 00:44:57.449 --> 00:45:00.269 the negative. The positive of this generation 00:45:00.269 --> 00:45:03.289 is they're growing up appreciating physical health, 00:45:03.449 --> 00:45:06.889 mental health, relationships. And they're looking, 00:45:07.090 --> 00:45:08.949 because the Wall Street Journal did a thing recently, 00:45:09.070 --> 00:45:11.809 they are going into the trades. The Gen Zs are 00:45:11.809 --> 00:45:14.199 going into the trades. Because they're looking 00:45:14.199 --> 00:45:16.599 at college and going, this is ridiculous. $40 00:45:16.599 --> 00:45:19.480 ,000, $60 ,000 worth of debt. And like your dad, 00:45:19.639 --> 00:45:23.000 a bachelor's that you never use. But they're 00:45:23.000 --> 00:45:24.739 looking at the work week and they're going, well, 00:45:24.760 --> 00:45:27.199 wait a second, 56 hours a week. And then when 00:45:27.199 --> 00:45:29.179 I Google, is it healthy to be a firefighter? 00:45:29.179 --> 00:45:31.579 All I see is cancer, divorce, heart disease, 00:45:31.739 --> 00:45:36.030 strokes, all the things. It is the working environment. 00:45:36.150 --> 00:45:38.429 It's not the job. I think if we actually showed 00:45:38.429 --> 00:45:40.389 these young people that we care enough to give 00:45:40.389 --> 00:45:42.309 them in a working environment that actually allows 00:45:42.309 --> 00:45:44.889 them to perform at a higher level and have longevity, 00:45:45.050 --> 00:45:48.050 I think we'd have them back in droves. I really, 00:45:48.090 --> 00:45:50.969 really do. But we have allowed, going back to 00:45:50.969 --> 00:45:54.289 the unions, our men and women to be worked into 00:45:54.289 --> 00:45:56.780 the ground, you know, literally. Like we know 00:45:56.780 --> 00:45:59.119 on a daily basis, we see all these firefighters 00:45:59.119 --> 00:46:02.099 that we lose. And until we change the working 00:46:02.099 --> 00:46:05.000 environment, the profession itself that we love 00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:08.380 is truly at risk. Because as you said, one day 00:46:08.380 --> 00:46:09.840 the tones will go off and no one will be there 00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:13.039 to respond. So I disagree with it. It's not the 00:46:13.039 --> 00:46:16.059 sleep because I think it's exactly what it is. 00:46:16.139 --> 00:46:19.500 It's the lack of rest and recovery, the lack 00:46:19.500 --> 00:46:21.880 of value of the men and women that are in uniform. 00:46:22.510 --> 00:46:25.389 by departments, by arguably even our own union, 00:46:25.530 --> 00:46:27.530 who has not fought for us to have this standardized 00:46:27.530 --> 00:46:30.210 work week. That is the reason that we have this 00:46:30.210 --> 00:46:33.030 national recruitment crisis. And if we fix the 00:46:33.030 --> 00:46:35.869 things that are glaringly broken, as many departments 00:46:35.869 --> 00:46:38.710 have started to do in Florida now, they have 00:46:38.710 --> 00:46:41.190 already seen a complete 180 and they have people 00:46:41.190 --> 00:46:43.190 lining up around the building now to work for 00:46:43.190 --> 00:46:45.409 them. But if we bury our head in the sand and 00:46:45.409 --> 00:46:49.170 say, oh, it's not the work week. then I disagree 00:46:49.170 --> 00:46:51.630 completely. It absolutely is the work week that 00:46:51.630 --> 00:46:54.329 is the biggest thing. Now, is it only the work 00:46:54.329 --> 00:46:56.150 week? Of course not. It's culture, it's fitness 00:46:56.150 --> 00:46:57.590 standards, it's all these other things that we've 00:46:57.590 --> 00:47:00.409 got to put in place. But that is what has dissuaded 00:47:00.409 --> 00:47:02.889 these people. And the fewer people that go into 00:47:02.889 --> 00:47:05.610 the service, the more mandatory overtime that's 00:47:05.610 --> 00:47:07.409 put on the shoulders of the men and women still 00:47:07.409 --> 00:47:10.110 in uniform. And that is unfair to them and it's 00:47:10.110 --> 00:47:13.849 unfair to their families. Yes. No, you're right 00:47:13.849 --> 00:47:17.809 in the fact that... you know i do think yes sleep 00:47:17.809 --> 00:47:21.010 obviously has a huge component to it you know 00:47:21.010 --> 00:47:28.000 but it's it's it's it's hard to It's hard to 00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:30.219 do something like that on a national level, unfortunately. 00:47:30.440 --> 00:47:32.699 It really is. It wasn't hard to shut down the 00:47:32.699 --> 00:47:34.260 whole country when COVID come in. This is the 00:47:34.260 --> 00:47:35.940 thing that blows me away. And again, it goes 00:47:35.940 --> 00:47:38.000 back to that politicking. If you had a group 00:47:38.000 --> 00:47:39.480 of men or women. That's politics. That's different. 00:47:39.619 --> 00:47:41.480 It depends on which state you lived in, whether 00:47:41.480 --> 00:47:43.880 you were shut down or not. You literally go, 00:47:44.079 --> 00:47:46.119 do you want to close the buildings or not? And 00:47:46.119 --> 00:47:48.239 someone said, yes, like overnight, everything's 00:47:48.239 --> 00:47:50.320 going to be closed. It's the same thing. Do you 00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:52.860 want to take that money from downstream, invest 00:47:52.860 --> 00:47:56.389 in, like you said, a D -shift? and therefore 00:47:56.389 --> 00:47:59.389 stop the bleeding financially and then improving 00:47:59.389 --> 00:48:03.030 recruitment again. That is literally a group 00:48:03.030 --> 00:48:05.809 of grownups in a room, one day conversation. 00:48:06.230 --> 00:48:08.670 But this is the thing, the pushback you get is, 00:48:08.710 --> 00:48:10.730 oh, but it's complicated. It is not complicated. 00:48:11.010 --> 00:48:13.250 The way that we're doing it now is not working. 00:48:13.750 --> 00:48:15.849 And it's nauseating. And I'm not saying this 00:48:15.849 --> 00:48:18.150 is what you're saying, but national organizations, 00:48:18.510 --> 00:48:22.170 oh, but, no, oh, but. The science is irrefutable. 00:48:22.409 --> 00:48:24.489 Just even if you just listen to the people I've 00:48:24.489 --> 00:48:27.389 had on the show. completely irrefutable. I've 00:48:27.389 --> 00:48:29.789 had experts in the military, sporting communities, 00:48:30.010 --> 00:48:33.809 every parallel kind of profession. And, you know, 00:48:33.829 --> 00:48:35.610 like I said, the proof is in the pudding. These 00:48:35.610 --> 00:48:38.690 Florida departments are showing that it's working 00:48:38.690 --> 00:48:41.369 and showing that now we're fully staffed. So 00:48:41.369 --> 00:48:43.800 there's no more overtime. Apart from obviously 00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:45.460 occasional ones and, you know, the hurricanes 00:48:45.460 --> 00:48:48.260 and that kind of thing. So it's really about 00:48:48.260 --> 00:48:50.960 like exactly like you said, dissolving this. 00:48:51.059 --> 00:48:53.619 Oh, I need blue M &Ms in my green room bullshit 00:48:53.619 --> 00:48:56.039 that I hear from the IFF. And I literally had 00:48:56.039 --> 00:48:57.960 that. They came to Disney and they literally 00:48:57.960 --> 00:49:00.000 were specifying they needed these kind of sweets. 00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:03.519 And, you know, I mean, just ridiculous. And getting 00:49:03.519 --> 00:49:05.960 back to, like you said, rolling up your sleeves 00:49:05.960 --> 00:49:08.630 and fighting for the actual men and women. Like 00:49:08.630 --> 00:49:11.389 being about them, not about you. And we've allowed 00:49:11.389 --> 00:49:14.190 so many layers of red tape that it's literally 00:49:14.190 --> 00:49:17.610 created complete inertia. And meanwhile, our 00:49:17.610 --> 00:49:19.650 men and women are dying. So I think that this 00:49:19.650 --> 00:49:22.329 is a kind of, all right, enough is enough conversation. 00:49:22.429 --> 00:49:25.030 We need to figure out who's doing it right. Well, 00:49:25.070 --> 00:49:26.929 the Northeast has been doing it right for decades. 00:49:27.349 --> 00:49:29.710 And we copy their hose lays and their high rise 00:49:29.710 --> 00:49:32.369 tactics, but we turn our heads to their work. 00:49:33.130 --> 00:49:34.849 And we need to say, all right, but then this 00:49:34.849 --> 00:49:37.050 is what we need to do nationally. And I think 00:49:37.050 --> 00:49:40.150 that the work week should be a professional national 00:49:40.150 --> 00:49:46.030 standard. I agree. It should, but it never will. 00:49:47.250 --> 00:49:49.889 I will agree to disagree that because I'm going 00:49:49.889 --> 00:49:54.030 to make sure that it does. Well, I would love 00:49:54.030 --> 00:49:57.230 for that to happen. It's just because we're 50 00:49:57.230 --> 00:50:00.610 different states, in order to have that happen, 00:50:00.670 --> 00:50:03.349 you would have to have. Every state passed the 00:50:03.349 --> 00:50:07.650 same rules. So what about bank clerks, baristas 00:50:07.650 --> 00:50:11.650 in Starbucks? What about them? They work 40 hours. 00:50:12.269 --> 00:50:14.929 Sure. That's what I'm saying. So that's a national 00:50:14.929 --> 00:50:16.949 standard. Why is it any different for the fire 00:50:16.949 --> 00:50:20.130 service? Well, because the fire service is, we 00:50:20.130 --> 00:50:22.349 have certain protections and exemptions from 00:50:22.349 --> 00:50:24.250 all those different things. But why? You know 00:50:24.250 --> 00:50:28.940 what I mean? It's not for our benefit. No, it's 00:50:28.940 --> 00:50:31.860 for the municipality's benefit. But unfortunately, 00:50:32.300 --> 00:50:35.099 I agree with you, James. Yeah, like I said, I 00:50:35.099 --> 00:50:37.360 would love to see those things. But the way the 00:50:37.360 --> 00:50:40.380 municipalities and the way the state constitutions 00:50:40.380 --> 00:50:44.280 and the way the laws are in every state, it is 00:50:44.280 --> 00:50:49.760 not written that way. It's not. I agree. I 100 00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:51.880 % agree with you, James. It's not fair. It's 00:50:51.880 --> 00:50:53.559 not fair. No, I'm not saying about fair. The 00:50:53.559 --> 00:50:55.380 municipalities that made it change just said, 00:50:55.400 --> 00:50:57.389 well, we're changing it anyway. So it's not like 00:50:57.389 --> 00:50:59.809 a binding thing where you cannot work 40 hours. 00:50:59.849 --> 00:51:02.329 The whole FLMA thing, if I'm getting this right, 00:51:02.489 --> 00:51:05.550 that's your overtime over and above whatever 00:51:05.550 --> 00:51:09.730 it is, 42, 44 hours. Well, FLMA only guarantees 00:51:09.730 --> 00:51:13.969 you certain times off for certain family medical 00:51:13.969 --> 00:51:17.289 leave. That's a little different. You'd have 00:51:17.289 --> 00:51:20.690 to have a FLASA cycle, the Fair Labor Share Agreement. 00:51:20.690 --> 00:51:22.929 Sorry, I'm getting my acronym. That's what I 00:51:22.929 --> 00:51:24.510 meant to say. No, no, it's fine. I'm removed 00:51:24.510 --> 00:51:27.750 from all that. That's the difference. Yeah, FLASA 00:51:27.750 --> 00:51:31.889 cycles are different. But it all depends. It 00:51:31.889 --> 00:51:35.550 goes back. It depends on what your contract says 00:51:35.550 --> 00:51:38.449 for what you have agreed to your work week in 00:51:38.449 --> 00:51:41.369 your contract. Yeah, but the thing is that people 00:51:41.369 --> 00:51:43.710 agreed that once. People can now change that. 00:51:43.769 --> 00:51:46.900 And I know, for example, Pasco County. They were 00:51:46.900 --> 00:51:49.719 like, look, it kicks in after, you know, 40 whatever 00:51:49.719 --> 00:51:52.139 hours. Well, if we don't get there, it becomes 00:51:52.139 --> 00:51:55.199 a moot point at this point. So this is the thing. 00:51:55.239 --> 00:51:57.219 Everyone feels like they're shackled by these, 00:51:57.219 --> 00:51:59.579 you know, these certain areas. And then you look 00:51:59.579 --> 00:52:00.679 at the departments that did it. They're like, 00:52:00.760 --> 00:52:02.980 yeah, we just, you know, we just like, OK, well, 00:52:03.059 --> 00:52:04.460 we're not going to be working overtime if we 00:52:04.460 --> 00:52:06.840 do. The first few hours will be straight time. 00:52:07.480 --> 00:52:10.280 But, you know, we get to be home with our family 00:52:10.280 --> 00:52:13.880 every three days at a time. That's far greater 00:52:13.880 --> 00:52:17.369 than a few bucks. on these few hours of overtime. 00:52:17.590 --> 00:52:21.389 So I keep hearing, oh, we can't because rather 00:52:21.389 --> 00:52:23.710 than, well, how can we? And this is what these 00:52:23.710 --> 00:52:25.170 departments have done. They've looked at it and 00:52:25.170 --> 00:52:27.909 go, well, yeah. And it's not just Florida. I 00:52:27.909 --> 00:52:30.150 got a department in Texas is about to go to it. 00:52:30.170 --> 00:52:31.949 I just heard one in North Carolina is about to 00:52:31.949 --> 00:52:34.329 go to it. So if these departments can look at 00:52:34.329 --> 00:52:36.650 it and go, well, we're going to change that. 00:52:37.090 --> 00:52:39.389 And then imagine when there's that national push 00:52:39.389 --> 00:52:42.070 and everyone starts questioning these kind of, 00:52:42.070 --> 00:52:43.849 you know, it's like the horse tethered to the 00:52:43.849 --> 00:52:46.559 plastic chair. At what point do you realize that, 00:52:46.599 --> 00:52:49.539 you know, again, like I always tell people, the 00:52:49.539 --> 00:52:51.800 people that tell you you can't work less than 00:52:51.800 --> 00:52:56.619 56 hours a week work 40 hours. The admin chiefs, 00:52:56.619 --> 00:52:59.099 you know, the city and county council members. 00:52:59.519 --> 00:53:01.900 So at what point do we say enough is enough? 00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:04.860 When we used to run one fire a week, I'm sure 00:53:04.860 --> 00:53:07.579 it worked back then. But that hasn't been the 00:53:07.579 --> 00:53:09.920 case for decades and decades. So now we have 00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:12.699 to advocate and bring our work week down to everyone 00:53:12.699 --> 00:53:15.780 else's. Well, I think the other problem, too, 00:53:15.860 --> 00:53:18.780 when you look at it is we in the fire service, 00:53:19.059 --> 00:53:23.400 we are our own worst enemies. Think about how 00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:28.619 much work that we do that people just call us 00:53:28.619 --> 00:53:31.219 to go do that's not part of our job description. 00:53:32.139 --> 00:53:35.059 You know, look at fire prevention, you know, 00:53:35.079 --> 00:53:38.059 the fire educations, you know, depending on your 00:53:38.059 --> 00:53:40.019 municipality and depending on where you're at, 00:53:40.139 --> 00:53:42.900 you know, you could wear 20 different hats, right? 00:53:43.309 --> 00:53:46.150 I was a hazmat technician. I was a paramedic. 00:53:46.150 --> 00:53:49.170 I was, you know, fire one, fire two. I had my 00:53:49.170 --> 00:53:52.030 officer certification. I was also, you know, 00:53:52.030 --> 00:53:56.110 I was entry -level fire investigations. You're 00:53:56.110 --> 00:53:58.929 going out doing public education, you know, with 00:53:58.929 --> 00:54:00.789 the fire. You're doing fire prevention inspections, 00:54:01.329 --> 00:54:03.969 you know, doing code violations. So depending 00:54:03.969 --> 00:54:05.929 on your municipality, you can have 20 different 00:54:05.929 --> 00:54:09.949 roles, right? then if you enter that same mentality, 00:54:10.210 --> 00:54:12.530 we shouldn't be doing anything more than what 00:54:12.530 --> 00:54:16.369 we should be doing, right? And we are always 00:54:16.369 --> 00:54:18.710 our worst enemies. We're always taking on more 00:54:18.710 --> 00:54:21.389 jobs. Yes, we'll do that. Yes, we can do that. 00:54:21.469 --> 00:54:23.489 Yeah, we'll do this. And yes, we'll do that. 00:54:23.750 --> 00:54:26.690 When these other jobs want to talk about police, 00:54:26.989 --> 00:54:30.409 if someone comes in and asks someone for directions, 00:54:30.510 --> 00:54:32.389 asks a cop for directions, he counts that as 00:54:32.389 --> 00:54:36.559 a call. He counts that as a contact. Now, if 00:54:36.559 --> 00:54:38.960 someone stops by the fire station and asks for 00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:43.239 directions, do we file an incident report saying 00:54:43.239 --> 00:54:47.940 that we had a public community contact? No. We 00:54:47.940 --> 00:54:51.679 don't bother with that. But the cops do. Why 00:54:51.679 --> 00:54:53.760 do they do that? Well, because they know that 00:54:53.760 --> 00:54:57.900 numbers, data, matters to them. And to enable 00:54:57.900 --> 00:54:59.860 that they have the shifts that they have on the 00:54:59.860 --> 00:55:02.900 police side, they need to account for all of 00:55:02.900 --> 00:55:05.260 the contacts they have with the public. Right? 00:55:05.630 --> 00:55:11.349 So they count those things where we don't. And 00:55:11.349 --> 00:55:14.889 I got reprimanded once for pulling my ambulance 00:55:14.889 --> 00:55:17.650 over and helping someone push their car out of 00:55:17.650 --> 00:55:21.730 an intersection. I got reprimanded because I 00:55:21.730 --> 00:55:27.110 didn't create an incident. So yeah, we are our 00:55:27.110 --> 00:55:28.869 own worst enemies a lot of the time. We are doing 00:55:28.869 --> 00:55:31.610 more work. Want to talk about work? We're doing 00:55:31.610 --> 00:55:34.710 more work than we should be doing. But again, 00:55:34.889 --> 00:55:37.389 that goes back to the mentality of what's going 00:55:37.389 --> 00:55:40.670 on, you know, in the service itself, you know. 00:55:41.030 --> 00:55:45.050 And until we stop doing those other jobs that 00:55:45.050 --> 00:55:49.590 other people should be doing or enables the department 00:55:49.590 --> 00:55:52.630 to argue for more workers, right, to have more 00:55:52.630 --> 00:55:56.010 crews, then you're never going to get back to 00:55:56.010 --> 00:55:58.150 the thing that you want in the first place, right? 00:55:58.969 --> 00:56:02.530 Because if you created a precedent. where you've 00:56:02.530 --> 00:56:05.550 done all this work for all these years and you've 00:56:05.550 --> 00:56:07.650 never bitched and complained, but now all of 00:56:07.650 --> 00:56:09.170 a sudden you're bitching and complaining about 00:56:09.170 --> 00:56:12.369 the work that you're doing. You see what I'm 00:56:12.369 --> 00:56:15.690 saying? That's when you get to the municipalities 00:56:15.690 --> 00:56:18.889 are saying, well, it's been fine for 50 years. 00:56:18.929 --> 00:56:21.510 It's been fine for 100 years. You never said 00:56:21.510 --> 00:56:24.269 anything about this for the past 50, you know, 00:56:24.289 --> 00:56:26.719 whatever. Everything was fine before. Why all 00:56:26.719 --> 00:56:28.420 of a sudden is there different? And that's where 00:56:28.420 --> 00:56:32.260 the politics, I know it's unfortunate, but that's 00:56:32.260 --> 00:56:35.599 where that comes in. Because when I was a fire 00:56:35.599 --> 00:56:39.760 chief and I wanted a new fire truck, I couldn't 00:56:39.760 --> 00:56:42.559 just go buy one myself. I needed to get approval 00:56:42.559 --> 00:56:45.400 for that. I needed to get spending from the municipality 00:56:45.400 --> 00:56:48.719 to approve that spending, to approve that truck 00:56:48.719 --> 00:56:51.219 purchase, right? I couldn't just go and do it. 00:56:51.320 --> 00:56:53.159 I would love to have gone and done whatever the 00:56:53.159 --> 00:56:55.989 hell I wanted to, but I needed permission. Right. 00:56:56.090 --> 00:56:58.510 Because that's the system that we had. So I had 00:56:58.510 --> 00:57:01.110 to work with the system and I had a great PowerPoint, 00:57:01.389 --> 00:57:04.269 James. It was fantastic. It had all kinds of 00:57:04.269 --> 00:57:07.130 data, you know, how we needed a new truck and 00:57:07.130 --> 00:57:09.389 we were spending this on maintenance and all 00:57:09.389 --> 00:57:11.989 these different things. And I went on and on 00:57:11.989 --> 00:57:14.110 and on and that on that public budget meeting, 00:57:14.309 --> 00:57:18.150 I went on for 45 minutes, James. And you know 00:57:18.150 --> 00:57:22.329 what they asked me in the end? How much? They 00:57:22.329 --> 00:57:26.730 could give two shits. about my data they could 00:57:26.730 --> 00:57:30.409 give two shits about all the things all the reasons 00:57:30.409 --> 00:57:32.889 all the blah blah blah blah everything it was 00:57:32.889 --> 00:57:37.010 awesome they could give two shits about any of 00:57:37.010 --> 00:57:42.949 that how much and literally they were like we're 00:57:42.949 --> 00:57:45.909 you got i got no time to listen anymore how much 00:57:45.909 --> 00:57:49.409 do you want well it's gonna cost 750 do we have 00:57:49.409 --> 00:57:52.269 the money then the budget guy comes in well we 00:57:52.269 --> 00:57:55.269 can do this this and this Great. We'll do it. 00:57:55.289 --> 00:58:01.590 You're approved. Next. That's the reality of 00:58:01.590 --> 00:58:03.929 what we're dealing with, you know? Well, this 00:58:03.929 --> 00:58:06.949 is why we've got a hook now is because if you 00:58:06.949 --> 00:58:09.710 get exactly like you said, the budget guy of 00:58:09.710 --> 00:58:11.510 cities and counties to say, how much are you 00:58:11.510 --> 00:58:15.269 spending on overtime? How much are you spending 00:58:15.269 --> 00:58:17.630 on training young recruits? And then they walk 00:58:17.630 --> 00:58:19.670 out the back door one, two, three years later. 00:58:20.300 --> 00:58:22.980 workman's comp claims you know lawsuits when 00:58:22.980 --> 00:58:25.679 you guys are tired you look at the money now 00:58:25.679 --> 00:58:27.420 because i've seen this i mean don't get me wrong 00:58:27.420 --> 00:58:31.199 it's sadly it is acutely you know obvious that 00:58:31.199 --> 00:58:33.320 there's a lot of people especially in those positions 00:58:33.320 --> 00:58:36.840 that these suicides these cancers these you know 00:58:36.840 --> 00:58:40.599 all these deaths don't move them At all. It makes 00:58:40.599 --> 00:58:43.699 no difference. Even some fire chiefs, it's the 00:58:43.699 --> 00:58:46.239 same thing. And it's all the same on union presidents 00:58:46.239 --> 00:58:48.519 too. It doesn't seem to make any difference. 00:58:48.579 --> 00:58:52.079 Nothing is done. So money is the, you know, money 00:58:52.079 --> 00:58:54.300 talks, bullshit walks, as they say. So it's like, 00:58:54.300 --> 00:58:56.079 all right, well then here is the money that you're 00:58:56.079 --> 00:58:59.500 all wasting. And this is the, I think where we 00:58:59.500 --> 00:59:01.380 have the ability now to make a difference is 00:59:01.380 --> 00:59:04.099 the fire service can say, there's your money. 00:59:04.139 --> 00:59:06.440 And by the way, this is your annual amount that 00:59:06.440 --> 00:59:08.739 you're bleeding. when these vacancies are all 00:59:08.739 --> 00:59:10.579 filled with the right kind of candidate, again, 00:59:10.619 --> 00:59:12.579 not lowering the bar and taking anyone who's 00:59:12.579 --> 00:59:15.019 going to then be another problem. Now we're going 00:59:15.019 --> 00:59:17.059 to save you a bunch of money. And then I agree 00:59:17.059 --> 00:59:18.719 with you a hundred percent. I think where the 00:59:18.719 --> 00:59:23.360 greatest abuse of EMS is, you know, the 911 system 00:59:23.360 --> 00:59:26.400 at the bottom tier. And I love the concept that 00:59:26.400 --> 00:59:29.380 GMR talks about is a three tier system. So then 00:59:29.380 --> 00:59:31.260 let's also talk about calls that we shouldn't 00:59:31.260 --> 00:59:34.440 be responding to there. You know, the whole telehealth 00:59:34.440 --> 00:59:37.880 thing now. gives you the ability to have, whether 00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:40.699 it's GMR or another company, embed in a 911. 00:59:40.920 --> 00:59:44.719 You get the 18 -month -old thrown up once, and 00:59:44.719 --> 00:59:46.440 the parents think they're going to die from dehydration. 00:59:46.760 --> 00:59:49.079 They're offered a consultation with a nurse. 00:59:49.440 --> 00:59:52.420 They take that. They get the treat at home, or 00:59:52.420 --> 00:59:54.880 they get to schedule an urgent care clinic appointment 00:59:54.880 --> 00:59:58.300 the next day. An ER bed stays open. The fire 00:59:58.300 --> 01:00:00.219 department was never called. And that patient 01:00:00.219 --> 01:00:02.900 gets a bill that's a fraction of the ER cost. 01:00:03.179 --> 01:00:06.000 So there are really great innovative solutions 01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:08.460 that we can now bring in and address the call 01:00:08.460 --> 01:00:10.260 load as well, because I agree with you 100%. 01:00:10.260 --> 01:00:13.579 We've said yes to everything. Call 911. I've 01:00:13.579 --> 01:00:15.840 done, you know, snake retrievals and all kinds 01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:17.820 of, when there's Orange County has a massive 01:00:17.820 --> 01:00:19.639 animal control department. I'm like, why are 01:00:19.639 --> 01:00:22.460 we standing here with a bucket and a stick? when 01:00:22.460 --> 01:00:25.340 we've got experts you know so this is this is 01:00:25.340 --> 01:00:27.360 the thing but again it's flipping it so all right 01:00:27.360 --> 01:00:30.179 this is an opportunity for us to change because 01:00:30.179 --> 01:00:33.280 what i've realized is that there's been so many 01:00:33.280 --> 01:00:36.199 finger pointing that you know nothing gets done 01:00:36.199 --> 01:00:37.940 everyone's just blaming the other one and it's 01:00:37.940 --> 01:00:40.219 all of us i mean you talk about the fire service 01:00:40.219 --> 01:00:43.440 being at fault like my rank we go home and we 01:00:43.440 --> 01:00:45.420 tell our neighbors we've got the best job in 01:00:45.420 --> 01:00:47.619 the world and i only work 10 days a month and 01:00:47.619 --> 01:00:51.000 it's bullshit A 24 -hour shift is three eight 01:00:51.000 --> 01:00:53.300 -hour days crammed together. We work 30 days 01:00:53.300 --> 01:00:56.219 a month. Yes, we're working every day. Exactly. 01:00:56.300 --> 01:00:59.599 So this has been a great conversation. This is 01:00:59.599 --> 01:01:03.179 not a debate. This is a conversation. But it's 01:01:03.179 --> 01:01:05.420 like, what a beautiful opportunity for us to 01:01:05.420 --> 01:01:07.539 finally say, I don't care how long we've been 01:01:07.539 --> 01:01:10.539 doing it for. We are at a point now where it 01:01:10.539 --> 01:01:12.300 needs to change. Like I said, whether it's children 01:01:12.300 --> 01:01:15.260 going up a chimney or women be able to vote or 01:01:15.260 --> 01:01:18.099 whatever the thing, the way we've always done 01:01:18.099 --> 01:01:20.119 it. There's this line in the sand, and we're 01:01:20.119 --> 01:01:23.159 there now. Because as you and I both know, our 01:01:23.159 --> 01:01:25.760 men and women are dying. Our young people really 01:01:25.760 --> 01:01:27.900 don't want to do this job anymore. And they're 01:01:27.900 --> 01:01:30.800 amazing human beings. There's as many great firefighters 01:01:30.800 --> 01:01:34.380 as when you and I came on. So what an amazing 01:01:34.380 --> 01:01:37.059 opportunity for us to go, all right, we need 01:01:37.059 --> 01:01:38.659 to do something differently. And I think this 01:01:38.659 --> 01:01:41.000 is the thing. But we have to have the courage 01:01:41.000 --> 01:01:47.179 to say what we're doing isn't working. Yes, 100%. 01:01:47.849 --> 01:01:54.510 And I think, I think for me, I think it really 01:01:54.510 --> 01:01:58.730 relies more on doing it locally than nationally. 01:01:59.449 --> 01:02:02.829 We have to start at the grassroots. We have to 01:02:02.829 --> 01:02:05.849 start on our own, what we can change, right? 01:02:05.969 --> 01:02:07.949 It goes back to the classic phrase, you know, 01:02:07.989 --> 01:02:10.590 you can only worry about what you can have control 01:02:10.590 --> 01:02:15.050 over, right? And when we, at the local level, 01:02:15.090 --> 01:02:18.679 we have control over who are, You know what our 01:02:18.679 --> 01:02:22.539 contract says, what jobs we do, what time we 01:02:22.539 --> 01:02:25.440 spend on this, what time we spend on that. You 01:02:25.440 --> 01:02:30.019 know, we control our destinies and we we can 01:02:30.019 --> 01:02:33.840 only start that and change process can only start 01:02:33.840 --> 01:02:37.380 at the bottom. It's not going to come from on 01:02:37.380 --> 01:02:39.219 high. It's not going to come from the top down. 01:02:39.300 --> 01:02:42.079 I agree. We have to be honest and realize that, 01:02:42.179 --> 01:02:47.610 you know, and until like you said, until. And 01:02:47.610 --> 01:02:49.909 it's like anything, like, you know, we have so 01:02:49.909 --> 01:02:52.849 many little fiefdoms, you know, because it's 01:02:52.849 --> 01:02:55.610 the problem with the fire services, like you 01:02:55.610 --> 01:02:59.349 said before, it can drastically be different 01:02:59.349 --> 01:03:03.469 between one municipality to another, between 01:03:03.469 --> 01:03:07.530 one county to another, right? Orange County in 01:03:07.530 --> 01:03:09.409 Florida is completely different than Brevard 01:03:09.409 --> 01:03:11.869 County, which is completely different than, you 01:03:11.869 --> 01:03:16.139 know, Seminole County. Here, Marathon County, 01:03:16.300 --> 01:03:18.280 we are the largest county in the state of Wisconsin. 01:03:19.780 --> 01:03:24.559 We have tried numerous times to try to county 01:03:24.559 --> 01:03:28.440 -wide our fire and EMS system. It never gets 01:03:28.440 --> 01:03:32.460 approved because the local townships like to 01:03:32.460 --> 01:03:34.960 keep their responsibility. They like to keep 01:03:34.960 --> 01:03:38.019 their name on the truck, even though it would 01:03:38.019 --> 01:03:43.829 be better to do it a county way. let alone a 01:03:43.829 --> 01:03:46.030 statewide or national level. They just won't 01:03:46.030 --> 01:03:49.150 even do it at the county level. You know? And 01:03:49.150 --> 01:03:51.849 unfortunately, yeah. How do you, because that's 01:03:51.849 --> 01:03:53.929 a really great kind of, you know, lens that you've 01:03:53.929 --> 01:03:58.349 got. How do you, if this was to be approved, 01:03:58.510 --> 01:04:01.690 how do you absorb cities like that into a county, 01:04:01.789 --> 01:04:05.130 but allow them to maintain their identity? Because 01:04:05.130 --> 01:04:07.550 having worked for county departments myself and 01:04:07.550 --> 01:04:10.730 city departments, there is that element where 01:04:10.730 --> 01:04:13.559 you do become a number. In a county. So you can 01:04:13.559 --> 01:04:17.159 see why people want to hang on to a town identity. 01:04:17.380 --> 01:04:20.440 So how do you fuse those two together? So you 01:04:20.440 --> 01:04:22.599 have the best of both worlds, obviously, you 01:04:22.599 --> 01:04:26.480 know, a greater ability to respond and maybe 01:04:26.480 --> 01:04:27.920 better equipment and that kind of thing that 01:04:27.920 --> 01:04:30.860 you'd have on a county level, but still allowing 01:04:30.860 --> 01:04:34.260 a kind of local element to it. So the men and 01:04:34.260 --> 01:04:36.500 women of certain areas of that county still feel 01:04:36.500 --> 01:04:39.119 like they're part of something smaller. Well, 01:04:39.239 --> 01:04:41.800 and this goes back to some of the detriments 01:04:41.800 --> 01:04:49.239 of the union. So, for example, our union would 01:04:49.239 --> 01:04:52.800 not allow us to volunteer on another department. 01:04:54.679 --> 01:04:57.420 Not allowed. The municipality would not allow 01:04:57.420 --> 01:04:59.300 it. The city of Wausau would not allow it. Our 01:04:59.300 --> 01:05:02.579 contract did not allow it. So if we lived in 01:05:02.579 --> 01:05:04.639 a rural area and a lot of it because we didn't 01:05:04.639 --> 01:05:08.659 have. uh we didn't have a residency requirement 01:05:08.659 --> 01:05:11.599 so there were some guys on the department that 01:05:11.599 --> 01:05:13.400 lived an hour and a half two hours away they 01:05:13.400 --> 01:05:15.320 would just drive in to work and then they drive 01:05:15.320 --> 01:05:18.079 home so we didn't have really well there was 01:05:18.079 --> 01:05:20.099 technically a residency requirement it was like 01:05:20.099 --> 01:05:24.480 60 60 miles as the bird flies kind of thing you 01:05:24.480 --> 01:05:26.880 know but it's just like okay whatever you know 01:05:26.880 --> 01:05:31.500 but anyway but the rules were you could not all 01:05:31.500 --> 01:05:35.559 right so And then it goes back to why. Why was 01:05:35.559 --> 01:05:38.639 this? Well, because the city didn't want you 01:05:38.639 --> 01:05:41.380 volunteering at a local department, getting hurt 01:05:41.380 --> 01:05:46.079 on the job, coming back to work for the city, 01:05:46.079 --> 01:05:49.219 say, the next day, and then going out and working 01:05:49.219 --> 01:05:51.960 a job and then being hurt. And then they're like, 01:05:52.019 --> 01:05:53.920 well, how do we prove that you got hurt with 01:05:53.920 --> 01:05:57.159 us versus you got hurt with somebody else? So, 01:05:57.159 --> 01:06:00.960 which goes back to lawyers, workers' comp, blah, 01:06:00.980 --> 01:06:04.380 blah, blah, blah, blah, right? So that was the 01:06:04.380 --> 01:06:06.840 rules that we had. There's another department 01:06:06.840 --> 01:06:10.980 about 45 minutes from here. They allowed their, 01:06:11.039 --> 01:06:12.960 they were professional, they were full time, 01:06:13.059 --> 01:06:15.139 but they only had one station. So they were lower 01:06:15.139 --> 01:06:18.480 call volume. Okay. In a more rural community, 01:06:18.699 --> 01:06:22.420 they, their contract did allow for their firefighters 01:06:22.420 --> 01:06:27.000 to volunteer on other departments. So you still 01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:30.619 had that aspect. When we had our county meetings 01:06:30.619 --> 01:06:33.409 talking about. making it a county -wide system 01:06:33.409 --> 01:06:40.289 the iaia our union did not want a volunteer aspect 01:06:40.289 --> 01:06:46.090 to be part of the system because they felt from 01:06:46.090 --> 01:06:49.289 a union standpoint if we allowed volunteers on 01:06:49.289 --> 01:06:52.610 or allowed part -time people on then we would 01:06:52.610 --> 01:06:56.130 not have a lot of full -time guys that they would 01:06:56.130 --> 01:06:59.800 only hire part -time guys And then they would 01:06:59.800 --> 01:07:01.920 staff everyone with part time. We would lose 01:07:01.920 --> 01:07:04.699 control. We would lose membership. We would lose 01:07:04.699 --> 01:07:07.800 a contract. We would lose all the things that 01:07:07.800 --> 01:07:10.380 they quote unquote thought they had having one 01:07:10.380 --> 01:07:14.219 solid union leadership. So they fought against 01:07:14.219 --> 01:07:17.880 having volunteers and part time part of the system. 01:07:19.659 --> 01:07:24.820 Here, however. Chief Probowski out in Santa Clara 01:07:24.820 --> 01:07:28.159 County, California, outside of San Francisco, 01:07:28.300 --> 01:07:32.159 they have a county system. They also have full 01:07:32.159 --> 01:07:34.820 -time guys, but they also have part -time people. 01:07:35.340 --> 01:07:40.500 They also have volunteers in an auxiliary where 01:07:40.500 --> 01:07:43.119 what happens is you kind of get in on the bottom 01:07:43.119 --> 01:07:46.110 level. You work as a part -time guy. or girl 01:07:46.110 --> 01:07:49.269 i'm using it as a gender gender neutral word 01:07:49.269 --> 01:07:52.869 you know but you you start out volunteering or 01:07:52.869 --> 01:07:54.670 being part of the auxiliary or being part of 01:07:54.670 --> 01:07:56.849 like an explorer program right in the high school 01:07:56.849 --> 01:08:00.170 you work your way up They pay for you or part 01:08:00.170 --> 01:08:02.369 of their system is you go to the local tech school, 01:08:02.510 --> 01:08:04.929 you get your fire certifications, then you work 01:08:04.929 --> 01:08:07.650 into a part -time position where you then get 01:08:07.650 --> 01:08:09.510 shifted around to different houses. You kind 01:08:09.510 --> 01:08:12.050 of learn different jobs, right? You learn more 01:08:12.050 --> 01:08:14.210 about being on the job. You learn about all these 01:08:14.210 --> 01:08:16.369 different processes. Then when there's a full 01:08:16.369 --> 01:08:18.670 -time opening, guess who gets first dibs? These 01:08:18.670 --> 01:08:20.470 part -time people, because you've been in the 01:08:20.470 --> 01:08:22.630 system, you've been trained all the way up. There's 01:08:22.630 --> 01:08:25.590 a whole reason why they do it like that. But 01:08:25.590 --> 01:08:28.869 again, going back to the local ways, That's how 01:08:28.869 --> 01:08:32.909 their local does it. We tried to get our local 01:08:32.909 --> 01:08:34.829 to see that that way. They didn't want to have 01:08:34.829 --> 01:08:39.170 anything to do with it. So, again, it all depends 01:08:39.170 --> 01:08:41.930 on how things are written locally. It all depends 01:08:41.930 --> 01:08:44.630 on how people see things and how you want to 01:08:44.630 --> 01:08:46.989 try to interact and how you want to try to get 01:08:46.989 --> 01:08:49.250 people to be brought on. I think the way they 01:08:49.250 --> 01:08:50.930 have that out in Santa Clara County would be 01:08:50.930 --> 01:08:54.310 great. It'd be awesome. I think that would behoove 01:08:54.310 --> 01:08:57.029 everyone. It would be fantastic. Because you 01:08:57.029 --> 01:08:59.310 get a group of people who are volunteering or 01:08:59.310 --> 01:09:01.869 in an auxiliary position or even in a fire explorer 01:09:01.869 --> 01:09:04.329 program. You get all those people that are interested 01:09:04.329 --> 01:09:06.350 in the position. You get them in. You get them 01:09:06.350 --> 01:09:09.510 trained. They learn the ways you do things. This 01:09:09.510 --> 01:09:12.189 is our way. They learn all that stuff so that 01:09:12.189 --> 01:09:14.609 when you have a full -time position open up or 01:09:14.609 --> 01:09:16.510 you've got a bunch of different things open up, 01:09:16.609 --> 01:09:19.369 you've got a huge group of people. You've got 01:09:19.369 --> 01:09:21.050 all these people to choose from then, right? 01:09:21.210 --> 01:09:26.779 It would be great. Trying to have other people, 01:09:26.939 --> 01:09:29.760 goes back to the politics, unfortunately, of 01:09:29.760 --> 01:09:33.119 trying to have them and convince them this is 01:09:33.119 --> 01:09:36.119 a better way takes a lot of work and a lot of 01:09:36.119 --> 01:09:38.819 effort. And like you said, a lot of people don't 01:09:38.819 --> 01:09:42.239 want to give up their control. And when you have 01:09:42.239 --> 01:09:46.039 a countywide system, the best way you can do 01:09:46.039 --> 01:09:48.880 that is by incorporating the station and not 01:09:48.880 --> 01:09:51.220 closing the stations down. I think a lot of people 01:09:51.220 --> 01:09:54.630 worry about consolidation. If we consolidate 01:09:54.630 --> 01:09:56.550 our departments together, we're going to lose 01:09:56.550 --> 01:09:59.109 our department. Nine times out of 10, that's 01:09:59.109 --> 01:10:01.550 not the case, right? We still need the location. 01:10:01.609 --> 01:10:05.069 We still need the vehicles, the apparatus. We 01:10:05.069 --> 01:10:07.890 still need that station to be active because 01:10:07.890 --> 01:10:10.710 of the response time or whatever we're trying 01:10:10.710 --> 01:10:13.649 to recover. But what we're going to consolidate 01:10:13.649 --> 01:10:15.930 is management. What we're going to consolidate 01:10:15.930 --> 01:10:19.939 is top -level positions, right? That's what we 01:10:19.939 --> 01:10:22.100 are going to consolidate. And then you get into 01:10:22.100 --> 01:10:25.420 the politics of chiefs where they're looking 01:10:25.420 --> 01:10:28.439 out for themselves. Why should I consolidate 01:10:28.439 --> 01:10:31.800 with you when I'm going to end up losing my job? 01:10:32.800 --> 01:10:35.880 Or you get into the like, I think a lot of people 01:10:35.880 --> 01:10:37.420 and a lot of some of the things that are going 01:10:37.420 --> 01:10:39.380 on right now, you've got a lot of people that 01:10:39.380 --> 01:10:42.560 are Gen Xers that are in their 50s early, you 01:10:42.560 --> 01:10:44.739 know, that are in their mid 50s, that when these 01:10:44.739 --> 01:10:48.239 consolidation efforts, they're three. or five 01:10:48.239 --> 01:10:51.640 years out from retirement they're not looking 01:10:51.640 --> 01:10:54.699 to make any changes whether it's for the benefit 01:10:54.699 --> 01:10:57.140 you know better betterment of everyone or not 01:10:57.140 --> 01:10:59.739 they're looking you know i've only got three 01:10:59.739 --> 01:11:01.819 more years i need to coast for three more years 01:11:01.819 --> 01:11:03.460 then you can change whatever the hell you want 01:11:03.460 --> 01:11:06.319 you know and that's again going back to like 01:11:06.319 --> 01:11:08.420 you said that's not right and that's not doing 01:11:08.420 --> 01:11:10.479 it for the right reason and you're not helping 01:11:10.479 --> 01:11:13.760 anybody but yourself absolutely but you know 01:11:13.760 --> 01:11:17.109 it's yeah it's kind of the crap sandwich that 01:11:17.109 --> 01:11:19.350 you're dealt with unfortunately well this is 01:11:19.350 --> 01:11:21.810 what i struggle with because basically all those 01:11:21.810 --> 01:11:26.029 people were my academy mates you know at that 01:11:26.029 --> 01:11:28.850 time period you know we're all like post 2000 01:11:28.850 --> 01:11:30.010 i mean there's don't get me wrong there's obviously 01:11:30.010 --> 01:11:32.510 some that have been on for like 60 years that 01:11:32.510 --> 01:11:34.390 are literally probably gonna die as part of the 01:11:34.390 --> 01:11:36.890 station but the average you know person now i 01:11:36.890 --> 01:11:41.090 mean i would have been uh hit in 22 years i think 01:11:41.090 --> 01:11:44.890 well 21 years excuse me if i not you know transitioned 01:11:44.890 --> 01:11:46.949 out and done this so now you're talking about 01:11:46.949 --> 01:11:48.810 people that are in these positions and you say 01:11:48.810 --> 01:11:52.250 i see that i agree with you 100 well i have got 01:11:52.250 --> 01:11:54.630 three years left i don't want to do anything 01:11:54.630 --> 01:11:56.750 and it's like this complete shift well hold on 01:11:56.750 --> 01:11:59.569 it's not about you and i mean just putting it 01:11:59.569 --> 01:12:01.829 all the way back to the firefighters like a lot 01:12:01.829 --> 01:12:04.050 of the firefighters i see now on social media 01:12:04.909 --> 01:12:07.550 it's look at me with my big mustache and my leather 01:12:07.550 --> 01:12:10.489 helmet and i'm forcing a door and i videoed it 01:12:10.489 --> 01:12:11.970 so you can all see it even though i'm wearing 01:12:11.970 --> 01:12:13.989 my shorts and t -shirt but i'm wearing my leather 01:12:13.989 --> 01:12:16.529 helmet because i'm a fucking firefighter it's 01:12:16.529 --> 01:12:18.930 me me me me me and it's like where is the shift 01:12:18.930 --> 01:12:22.090 it used to be them for them but it's become very 01:12:22.090 --> 01:12:26.090 very self -serving and i think even that A good 01:12:26.090 --> 01:12:28.550 example, if you look at the Northeast, you talked 01:12:28.550 --> 01:12:30.810 about the volunteers. I mean, there's no question 01:12:30.810 --> 01:12:34.090 that there are many areas of rural the U .S., 01:12:34.090 --> 01:12:37.869 rural U .S., that absolutely are going to need 01:12:37.869 --> 01:12:40.189 volunteers. You know, that's just, you know, 01:12:40.210 --> 01:12:43.229 if you're a town of 100 and it's all farms. Yeah, 01:12:43.229 --> 01:12:45.810 you don't get more than 35 calls a year. You 01:12:45.810 --> 01:12:48.310 cannot have a full -time crew. And of course, 01:12:48.310 --> 01:12:50.250 you don't have, you know, have mutual aid and 01:12:50.250 --> 01:12:52.550 all that kind of thing. But then you see a lot 01:12:52.550 --> 01:12:55.229 of. suburban areas like the northeast still has 01:12:55.229 --> 01:12:57.829 volunteers so then the conversation to me comes 01:12:57.829 --> 01:13:00.909 well should we even have volunteers anymore and 01:13:00.909 --> 01:13:03.810 in those densely populated areas not like you 01:13:03.810 --> 01:13:06.210 talked about other areas and i i love the idea 01:13:06.210 --> 01:13:09.109 of a tier system of a mentorship program where 01:13:09.109 --> 01:13:11.289 you are air quotes volunteering but you're not 01:13:11.289 --> 01:13:13.630 really you're climbing the ladder to a career 01:13:13.630 --> 01:13:16.109 but there's a lot of areas again they don't have 01:13:16.109 --> 01:13:19.170 volunteer cops they don't volunteer er doctors 01:13:19.899 --> 01:13:21.939 But again, our profession, once again, well, 01:13:22.060 --> 01:13:23.640 they'll be fine. They'll do it. They'll do it 01:13:23.640 --> 01:13:26.000 for free. They'll do 56 hours a week. Just, you 01:13:26.000 --> 01:13:28.880 know, because we are. We are going to respond 01:13:28.880 --> 01:13:30.539 regardless. But there's a certain point where 01:13:30.539 --> 01:13:32.039 we've got to say, okay, time out. We've got to 01:13:32.039 --> 01:13:34.960 put some parameters. And there's a lot of amazing 01:13:34.960 --> 01:13:37.060 volunteer firefighters in the Northeast that 01:13:37.060 --> 01:13:39.539 should be given a career position because that 01:13:39.539 --> 01:13:42.220 area should have full -time firefighters. So 01:13:42.220 --> 01:13:45.579 that's the other conversation nationally is where. 01:13:46.270 --> 01:13:49.270 Where are areas where really that volunteerism 01:13:49.270 --> 01:13:52.210 has been taken advantage of and people that really 01:13:52.210 --> 01:13:53.949 should have been given benefits and a pension 01:13:53.949 --> 01:13:56.090 and a career doing the very thing that they are 01:13:56.090 --> 01:13:58.449 doing for free? You know, where is that line 01:13:58.449 --> 01:14:00.069 that we need to draw in the sand as a profession 01:14:00.069 --> 01:14:02.109 as well? Because volunteerism is incredible, 01:14:02.310 --> 01:14:05.729 but it can be taken advantage of. Oh, 100 percent. 01:14:05.770 --> 01:14:08.010 And, you know, going back to what we were saying 01:14:08.010 --> 01:14:10.050 before, like, you know, you're doing so much 01:14:10.050 --> 01:14:15.729 more than you should. Right. You know, and going 01:14:15.729 --> 01:14:17.989 back, yeah, you're right. How many volunteer 01:14:17.989 --> 01:14:21.550 cops are there? I can't think of any, right? 01:14:21.810 --> 01:14:25.149 You know, the outside constable, you know, position 01:14:25.149 --> 01:14:28.729 where, you know, some of, but it's a numbers 01:14:28.729 --> 01:14:31.930 game, right? A small town, you know, a small 01:14:31.930 --> 01:14:35.130 town of 4 ,000 people, they can get away with 01:14:35.130 --> 01:14:38.569 having three cops, right? You can get away with 01:14:38.569 --> 01:14:40.930 it. We can get away with the chief and two deputies, 01:14:41.050 --> 01:14:43.989 you know, go back to, you know. Barney Fife, 01:14:44.090 --> 01:14:46.630 you know, Mayville and, you know, the good old 01:14:46.630 --> 01:14:48.810 days back, you know. Yeah, you can get away with 01:14:48.810 --> 01:14:51.970 three guys, you know. You can't get away with 01:14:51.970 --> 01:14:53.770 three people in a fire department for that same 01:14:53.770 --> 01:14:56.529 town, right? You can get away with having one 01:14:56.529 --> 01:14:59.430 doctor for the town. But you can't get away with 01:14:59.430 --> 01:15:02.430 having, you know, one firefighter for that town. 01:15:02.789 --> 01:15:05.569 You know, so some of it is a numbers, some of 01:15:05.569 --> 01:15:09.390 it's a numbers problem, right? We require, and 01:15:09.390 --> 01:15:13.670 going back to NFPA, right, you know. If we ever 01:15:13.670 --> 01:15:20.649 had an actual high -rise structure fire, we had 01:15:20.649 --> 01:15:24.789 three stations here in Wausau. We had three stations. 01:15:24.829 --> 01:15:28.729 We ran about 6 ,000 to 7 ,000 calls, depending. 01:15:28.930 --> 01:15:32.130 Most of it was EMS. We were a paramedic base. 01:15:32.229 --> 01:15:36.649 We transported, so we had ambulances. Three stations 01:15:36.649 --> 01:15:42.060 covering just the city itself. which our city 01:15:42.060 --> 01:15:45.800 was just shy of 40 ,000 people, right? If we 01:15:45.800 --> 01:15:49.939 had an actual high -rise structure fire, right, 01:15:50.039 --> 01:15:55.619 our full -time crew component per shift was 16 01:15:55.619 --> 01:15:59.840 people. We did not have enough people. According 01:15:59.840 --> 01:16:02.979 to NFPA, we did not have enough people to fight 01:16:02.979 --> 01:16:08.659 that fire, right? So then it gets to... Do we 01:16:08.659 --> 01:16:11.159 need, for example, you want to talk about doing 01:16:11.159 --> 01:16:15.739 too much, James. So our stations, right, had 01:16:15.739 --> 01:16:18.579 four guys, each station. Downtown had more because 01:16:18.579 --> 01:16:22.119 we had a ladder truck. We had an actual tower 01:16:22.119 --> 01:16:24.039 that was out of there and we had our hazmat out 01:16:24.039 --> 01:16:27.520 of downtown. But anyway, so they had more guys. 01:16:27.600 --> 01:16:29.920 But the outside two stations, we had four people. 01:16:29.960 --> 01:16:32.260 That was it. Two guys were in the ambulance. 01:16:32.520 --> 01:16:36.020 Two guys were on the engine. That was it. If 01:16:36.020 --> 01:16:38.960 the ambulance was out, if we were busy and there 01:16:38.960 --> 01:16:41.840 was a structure fire in our area, you got an 01:16:41.840 --> 01:16:45.880 engine with a driver and an officer. That's it. 01:16:47.140 --> 01:16:50.479 And you had maybe another crew coming from across 01:16:50.479 --> 01:16:54.720 town with two guys, or you had the truck company 01:16:54.720 --> 01:16:58.340 coming from downtown with two guys. If all the 01:16:58.340 --> 01:17:00.600 ambulances were out, which happened all the frigging 01:17:00.600 --> 01:17:05.699 time. We barely had staffing. Want to talk about 01:17:05.699 --> 01:17:07.939 staffing? We barely had enough people just for 01:17:07.939 --> 01:17:12.340 a residential fire of the two in, two out, let 01:17:12.340 --> 01:17:15.279 alone if we had an actual working high -rise 01:17:15.279 --> 01:17:19.680 fire. We would never, even at maximum staffing, 01:17:19.840 --> 01:17:22.239 we'd never have enough people. How did it even 01:17:22.239 --> 01:17:24.300 get to the point where there was only two on 01:17:24.300 --> 01:17:26.680 a rig, where you simply cannot operate with two 01:17:26.680 --> 01:17:32.310 on a rig? It was a money thing. But I mean, if 01:17:32.310 --> 01:17:36.390 there was a school and there were 10 classrooms 01:17:36.390 --> 01:17:39.170 and they hired four teachers, that would never 01:17:39.170 --> 01:17:41.569 fly because you'd have six classrooms of kids 01:17:41.569 --> 01:17:44.170 not being taught. As we both know, especially 01:17:44.170 --> 01:17:47.170 if you're not, you know, truck and engine running, 01:17:47.369 --> 01:17:51.069 you cannot safely operate at a fire with a captain 01:17:51.069 --> 01:17:53.390 and an engineer. You've got someone on the radio 01:17:53.390 --> 01:17:54.930 doing a size up, you've got someone pumping, 01:17:55.069 --> 01:17:57.529 and you've got no one actually going in to facilitate 01:17:57.529 --> 01:18:02.819 a rescue. Not legally. i mean not safely not 01:18:02.819 --> 01:18:04.939 effectively no i mean people can beat their chest 01:18:04.939 --> 01:18:06.819 oh we just went in with one and we took the line 01:18:06.819 --> 01:18:09.819 yeah but that's that's the chances of you effectively 01:18:09.819 --> 01:18:12.560 doing it have gone down immensely and then now 01:18:12.560 --> 01:18:15.260 you go down now you're the victim and that child 01:18:15.260 --> 01:18:20.180 burns so i it blows me away again how yeah because 01:18:20.180 --> 01:18:22.260 you see him all the time you you there's that 01:18:22.260 --> 01:18:25.220 one on the history channel the um inside the 01:18:25.220 --> 01:18:27.500 fire was it called i'm forgetting but it was 01:18:27.500 --> 01:18:32.180 a guy that was a single engineer on a ladder 01:18:32.180 --> 01:18:36.060 truck at an apartment fire. And the guy's talking 01:18:36.060 --> 01:18:38.000 about it like 30 years later, and he's still 01:18:38.000 --> 01:18:40.260 in tears as he heard the thud of the infant being 01:18:40.260 --> 01:18:42.260 thrown out by the mother of this, because there 01:18:42.260 --> 01:18:44.020 was wires everywhere. He couldn't even set the 01:18:44.020 --> 01:18:46.600 aerial, and he couldn't set a 35 on his own. 01:18:46.760 --> 01:18:49.220 So this is the point, is that I don't understand 01:18:49.220 --> 01:18:51.859 how we even got to the point where, well, two 01:18:51.859 --> 01:18:55.199 will be okay. Two is never okay. On an ambulance, 01:18:55.399 --> 01:18:57.649 absolutely. I was on a two -man ambulance my 01:18:57.649 --> 01:18:59.470 whole career apart from my very first department. 01:18:59.670 --> 01:19:03.069 But on a fire engine or a truck, I mean, it's 01:19:03.069 --> 01:19:06.470 completely unsafe to just have two people. So 01:19:06.470 --> 01:19:09.229 I don't know how so many departments even allow 01:19:09.229 --> 01:19:12.170 that to happen in the first place. Well, it goes, 01:19:12.289 --> 01:19:15.909 like I said, unfortunately, it goes back to leadership 01:19:15.909 --> 01:19:20.609 and what they are or are not advocating for for 01:19:20.609 --> 01:19:26.890 the department. When you're in those, like I 01:19:26.890 --> 01:19:30.710 said, I know it sucks, but it's politics. You're 01:19:30.710 --> 01:19:35.170 trying to maintain your department's budget. 01:19:36.329 --> 01:19:40.670 If you're in a full -time department with full 01:19:40.670 --> 01:19:44.550 -time people, most of your budget, almost 85 01:19:44.550 --> 01:19:48.869 plus percent of your budget is what? Salary and 01:19:48.869 --> 01:19:52.329 benefits. Most of it. Almost all of it, call 01:19:52.329 --> 01:19:57.630 it. If you're the municipality and you say, well, 01:19:57.689 --> 01:20:03.029 our state funding now goes down, right? Where 01:20:03.029 --> 01:20:06.010 are we going to make the cut? So there's now 01:20:06.010 --> 01:20:08.170 a 10 % cut across the board. Every department 01:20:08.170 --> 01:20:12.149 has to cut 10%. Well, if you're the fire department 01:20:12.149 --> 01:20:15.850 and your budget is, say, $8 million, you've got 01:20:15.850 --> 01:20:17.909 to cut 10 % of $8 million. You've got to cut 01:20:17.909 --> 01:20:21.270 $800 ,000. Where is that going to come from, 01:20:21.289 --> 01:20:26.739 right? Salary and benefits. What does that mean? 01:20:26.800 --> 01:20:30.500 That means less guys. We don't have a training 01:20:30.500 --> 01:20:32.979 budget. Most departments barely have a training 01:20:32.979 --> 01:20:36.579 budget already, right? There's no education budget, 01:20:36.779 --> 01:20:40.180 barely. We're barely getting the equipment that 01:20:40.180 --> 01:20:42.800 we want because salary and benefits constitute 01:20:42.800 --> 01:20:46.359 so much of our budget. Well, if the municipality 01:20:46.359 --> 01:20:51.710 tells you you're going to cut. That's the problem. 01:20:51.890 --> 01:20:54.869 So then it becomes, okay, well, we're not going 01:20:54.869 --> 01:20:58.369 to hire. These two guys are retiring. We're not 01:20:58.369 --> 01:21:02.670 going to rehire those two positions then. Or 01:21:02.670 --> 01:21:05.449 you come to everyone as the chief and you say, 01:21:05.489 --> 01:21:08.489 listen, this is the shit sandwich we're dealt 01:21:08.489 --> 01:21:12.189 with. We got these options, right? We can lay 01:21:12.189 --> 01:21:16.649 off three guys, one per crew. We can, everyone 01:21:16.649 --> 01:21:22.939 can do more work. Right? Instead of laying off 01:21:22.939 --> 01:21:25.880 three guys, what we're going to do is this. All 01:21:25.880 --> 01:21:28.579 right? We're going to, those three, these two 01:21:28.579 --> 01:21:30.840 other people, or maybe these four guys that are 01:21:30.840 --> 01:21:32.819 going to retire, we're not going to hire them 01:21:32.819 --> 01:21:35.880 back. These people also happen to be, say, in 01:21:35.880 --> 01:21:40.199 the prevention bureau. So instead of hiring for 01:21:40.199 --> 01:21:42.939 prevention, we're not going to, all the crews 01:21:42.939 --> 01:21:44.880 now, we're going to go out and do inspections. 01:21:46.100 --> 01:21:51.500 Or we lay off three guys. Your choice. So what 01:21:51.500 --> 01:21:54.180 do you do? Well, I think, I mean, the three or 01:21:54.180 --> 01:21:57.340 four on a rig with the prevention thing, that's 01:21:57.340 --> 01:22:00.260 in hard times. Okay, during COVID, during the 01:22:00.260 --> 01:22:03.659 08 recession. Okay, but at that, what point do 01:22:03.659 --> 01:22:07.359 you tell your city, we cannot operate with less 01:22:07.359 --> 01:22:10.300 than three, I mean, ideally four on an engine. 01:22:10.399 --> 01:22:12.359 And again, it goes back to the classrooms, the 01:22:12.359 --> 01:22:14.420 roads. Oh, we can't finish that freeway that 01:22:14.420 --> 01:22:16.699 goes halfway through our town. They'll find the 01:22:16.699 --> 01:22:19.420 money for that. You know what I mean? So at what 01:22:19.420 --> 01:22:22.060 point do people say, look, I mean, it's like 01:22:22.060 --> 01:22:24.159 having a police car with no police officer in 01:22:24.159 --> 01:22:26.579 there. I mean, even having one to a car. I mean, 01:22:26.579 --> 01:22:29.859 the ridiculous nature of a single officer responding 01:22:29.859 --> 01:22:32.640 to someone who's going to try and hurt them is 01:22:32.640 --> 01:22:35.819 mind blowing and the richest nation on the planet. 01:22:36.039 --> 01:22:39.060 So this is what blows me away. We're not, you 01:22:39.060 --> 01:22:42.460 know, the Sudan. We're the United States of America. 01:22:42.600 --> 01:22:44.960 We have the most wealth of anyone on the planet. 01:22:45.020 --> 01:22:48.210 And yet you've got, you know, arguably not. poverty 01:22:48.210 --> 01:22:51.430 stricken neighborhoods that have two firefighters 01:22:51.430 --> 01:22:54.289 on a rig and then everyone wonders why they weren't 01:22:54.289 --> 01:22:57.130 able to make a rescue when god forbid their family 01:22:57.130 --> 01:22:59.189 was burning to death in the third floor window 01:22:59.189 --> 01:23:03.130 so this you know where i think again i understand 01:23:03.130 --> 01:23:05.590 the economics but it's higher you know maslow's 01:23:05.590 --> 01:23:09.310 hierarchy of needs you know security is the first 01:23:09.310 --> 01:23:12.229 thing so your police your fire you know if that's 01:23:12.229 --> 01:23:14.069 being cut and cut and cut which we know in our 01:23:14.069 --> 01:23:16.609 profession happens all the time Where is that 01:23:16.609 --> 01:23:19.470 voice to be like, Oh, just so you know, like 01:23:19.470 --> 01:23:23.289 three is the bare minimum nationally. We cannot 01:23:23.289 --> 01:23:25.689 operate a fire engine or a fire truck with less 01:23:25.689 --> 01:23:28.029 than three. I mean, obviously a truck, arguably 01:23:28.029 --> 01:23:31.449 four. So, you know, but people like one, one 01:23:31.449 --> 01:23:33.829 person rig, two person rig. And it's just, it's. 01:23:34.159 --> 01:23:36.859 pure insanity and i think again now do we have 01:23:36.859 --> 01:23:38.819 this opportunity to finally turn things around 01:23:38.819 --> 01:23:41.899 and not only in this recruitment for crisis help 01:23:41.899 --> 01:23:44.260 all the urban and suburban departments but even 01:23:44.260 --> 01:23:46.960 again the volunteer and and these areas where 01:23:46.960 --> 01:23:49.119 they're just woefully understaffed can we shine 01:23:49.119 --> 01:23:51.380 a spotlight and be like let us explain to you 01:23:51.380 --> 01:23:53.979 what happens when your family is trapped and 01:23:53.979 --> 01:23:56.279 all that's available are these two firefighters 01:23:56.279 --> 01:23:59.279 let me show you what they would want to do and 01:23:59.279 --> 01:24:01.739 let me show you what they're able to do but that's 01:24:01.739 --> 01:24:04.800 not story told is it Where is that voice? Well, 01:24:04.939 --> 01:24:08.479 it is, but the people, again, it goes back to 01:24:08.479 --> 01:24:11.579 like I told you with the budget committee. How 01:24:11.579 --> 01:24:16.359 much is it going to cost? They want to know. 01:24:16.699 --> 01:24:22.680 So it gets back to funding. So in Florida, when 01:24:22.680 --> 01:24:26.640 we were in Cocoa Beach during spring break, I 01:24:26.640 --> 01:24:28.979 was looking at different, you know, how much 01:24:28.979 --> 01:24:33.609 you guys pay for property taxes. And I was shocked 01:24:33.609 --> 01:24:38.449 how much you pay. It's outrageous. Outrageous. 01:24:38.630 --> 01:24:40.710 The property taxes that you guys are paying. 01:24:41.409 --> 01:24:45.109 And then I did a deep dive into, I'm like, but 01:24:45.109 --> 01:24:47.050 their school, like you drive by the elementary 01:24:47.050 --> 01:24:50.270 school and it looks like shit. And your playground 01:24:50.270 --> 01:24:53.029 looks like garbage, you know? And there's literally 01:24:53.029 --> 01:24:55.289 like garbage on the fence and, you know, yada, 01:24:55.289 --> 01:24:57.489 yada, yada. It's like, you're paying what in 01:24:57.489 --> 01:24:59.810 property taxes? And especially in Cocoa Beach, 01:24:59.890 --> 01:25:02.920 I was like, you've got. all these high rises 01:25:02.920 --> 01:25:05.460 or you know multi i mean these are million dollars 01:25:05.460 --> 01:25:07.819 every unit's a million freaking dollars you're 01:25:07.819 --> 01:25:10.479 collecting property taxes where is the freaking 01:25:10.479 --> 01:25:13.880 money going like what the frick and then you're 01:25:13.880 --> 01:25:16.479 adding all these hoa fees and blah blah blah 01:25:16.479 --> 01:25:20.579 blah blah i was like no i couldn't imagine owning 01:25:20.579 --> 01:25:22.479 anything down here but that was the thing like 01:25:22.479 --> 01:25:25.000 where is this freaking money going if you're 01:25:25.000 --> 01:25:28.119 a municipality if you're coco beach right or 01:25:28.119 --> 01:25:31.329 you're cape canaveral which has a Between the 01:25:31.329 --> 01:25:33.689 two of them, I think the total population is 01:25:33.689 --> 01:25:36.569 like permanent populations, like 12 ,000 people. 01:25:38.050 --> 01:25:44.529 Cape Canaveral's got a quasi department where 01:25:44.529 --> 01:25:46.590 they're part -time with some full -time guys. 01:25:47.069 --> 01:25:48.949 Cocoa Beach, though, is part of Brevard County, 01:25:49.289 --> 01:25:52.409 so they've got two stations that are fully staffed. 01:25:52.970 --> 01:25:55.390 with full -time people both running ambulances 01:25:55.390 --> 01:25:57.569 out of both of them i think bravard certainly 01:25:57.569 --> 01:26:00.310 used to be two -person rigs as well if i'm not 01:26:00.310 --> 01:26:03.350 mistaken for a long time so you you but you you've 01:26:03.350 --> 01:26:07.189 got but the point i'm making is all the money 01:26:07.189 --> 01:26:08.770 that you're collecting and all that property 01:26:08.770 --> 01:26:12.630 tax holy shit where's it going exactly my point 01:26:12.630 --> 01:26:14.550 two -person rigs you're telling me that that 01:26:14.550 --> 01:26:16.850 tourist destination with that transient exact 01:26:16.850 --> 01:26:19.529 coming in that's exactly right and then i i did 01:26:19.529 --> 01:26:21.989 a deep dive Because I'm like, why does the school 01:26:21.989 --> 01:26:25.069 look so bad then? What is going on here? Where's 01:26:25.069 --> 01:26:28.770 the money going? Roads are the same roads that 01:26:28.770 --> 01:26:30.550 I've been driving on since I've been going down 01:26:30.550 --> 01:26:32.590 there for the last 10 years. You know what I 01:26:32.590 --> 01:26:35.130 mean? Yeah, you got hurricane fixings and you 01:26:35.130 --> 01:26:37.210 got all that other kind. They're redoing the 01:26:37.210 --> 01:26:40.130 beach again. But that's all a state thing and 01:26:40.130 --> 01:26:42.890 all this different stuff. So I did a deep dive 01:26:42.890 --> 01:26:45.670 into your property tax, what you guys are paying 01:26:45.670 --> 01:26:49.270 for. And I was shocked to find out that. Part 01:26:49.270 --> 01:26:52.829 of your property tax bill is separated for your 01:26:52.829 --> 01:26:56.310 school districts and your teacher salaries. They 01:26:56.310 --> 01:27:00.130 separate those two things out. Here in Wisconsin, 01:27:00.390 --> 01:27:06.590 you get one tax bill for your millage rates for 01:27:06.590 --> 01:27:09.270 your school districts is brought up by the district. 01:27:09.529 --> 01:27:14.289 Then you have your local municipal rates are 01:27:14.289 --> 01:27:20.409 set by the county itself. And that's it. That's 01:27:20.409 --> 01:27:23.810 it. So that's the money you're getting. The other 01:27:23.810 --> 01:27:25.609 part of that comes from the state of Wisconsin 01:27:25.609 --> 01:27:29.010 itself. And some of the things we do in the fire 01:27:29.010 --> 01:27:31.609 department here in Wisconsin, the state of Wisconsin 01:27:31.609 --> 01:27:35.649 charges every commercial area, every insurance 01:27:35.649 --> 01:27:38.489 agent is called a 2 % due. They have to pay 2 01:27:38.489 --> 01:27:42.149 % of their fire insurance coverage to the state. 01:27:43.340 --> 01:27:46.560 The state then takes that money and they divvy 01:27:46.560 --> 01:27:49.220 that out to the technical colleges and the departments 01:27:49.220 --> 01:27:53.479 to pay for the free education for Firefighter 01:27:53.479 --> 01:27:55.760 1, Firefighter 2, all those different things. 01:27:55.840 --> 01:27:58.460 That's why those programs are free here in the 01:27:58.460 --> 01:28:01.659 state of Wisconsin. But again, my property taxes, 01:28:01.779 --> 01:28:04.520 I live in a nice house. It's great. My property 01:28:04.520 --> 01:28:08.640 taxes are only $3 ,500. They haven't gone up 01:28:08.640 --> 01:28:14.520 for 10 years. Haven't changed. That's the difference. 01:28:14.579 --> 01:28:17.819 When I talk about it deals with municipalities 01:28:17.819 --> 01:28:20.399 and it deals with locals and it deals with your 01:28:20.399 --> 01:28:23.359 county and it deals with your state. That's what 01:28:23.359 --> 01:28:26.859 I'm talking about. It's all so it is so incredibly 01:28:26.859 --> 01:28:30.939 different between every county and every state 01:28:30.939 --> 01:28:35.340 in this entire country that we have to understand 01:28:35.340 --> 01:28:39.300 that, you know. What we can do here in Wausau, 01:28:39.319 --> 01:28:41.560 Wisconsin, with what our state law literally 01:28:41.560 --> 01:28:45.720 says, what we can do on a tax roll and what we 01:28:45.720 --> 01:28:48.880 can charge municipalities or what we can offer 01:28:48.880 --> 01:28:51.699 for services, that all deals with what the state 01:28:51.699 --> 01:28:56.119 allows in their budgeting process. And the state 01:28:56.119 --> 01:29:00.199 has capped. They have not allowed any kind of 01:29:00.199 --> 01:29:04.119 increases to be done in education or municipal. 01:29:04.960 --> 01:29:07.260 tax bases which is why my taxes haven't gone 01:29:07.260 --> 01:29:10.739 up for as long as they have now is that for the 01:29:10.739 --> 01:29:13.699 benefit of the community or is it for the benefit 01:29:13.699 --> 01:29:17.880 of keeping your taxes low okay so it's me not 01:29:17.880 --> 01:29:21.220 we again it's it's about taking your ca keeping 01:29:21.220 --> 01:29:25.539 your taxes low our school district just failed 01:29:25.539 --> 01:29:28.420 another tax referent they are it was a referendum 01:29:28.420 --> 01:29:32.800 to exceed their revenue limit to exceed the budget 01:29:32.800 --> 01:29:35.439 they wanted to pay for other things and they 01:29:35.439 --> 01:29:38.479 said straight up if we don't pass this referendum 01:29:38.479 --> 01:29:40.760 we're going to have to probably lay off teachers 01:29:40.760 --> 01:29:43.159 we're going to have to get rid of curricular 01:29:43.159 --> 01:29:45.159 activities we're going to have to get rid of 01:29:45.159 --> 01:29:48.100 sports we may consolidate high schools we're 01:29:48.100 --> 01:29:49.840 going to have to get rid of elementary schools 01:29:49.840 --> 01:29:54.220 we're going to have to do all these things the 01:29:54.220 --> 01:30:00.079 vote said no do it And that is after listening 01:30:00.079 --> 01:30:03.800 sessions. That is after public comment areas. 01:30:04.220 --> 01:30:06.739 That is after blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 01:30:06.739 --> 01:30:10.380 blah, blah. Because when it comes down to it, 01:30:10.439 --> 01:30:14.619 how much am I paying? Yeah, that's what they 01:30:14.619 --> 01:30:16.880 want to know. How much am I paying? How much 01:30:16.880 --> 01:30:19.260 am I paying? The issue that we have, you know, 01:30:19.260 --> 01:30:20.819 when you think about the narrative, and this 01:30:20.819 --> 01:30:23.300 is apolitical, this is both freaking sides of 01:30:23.300 --> 01:30:26.149 the aisle. But when was the last time you really 01:30:26.149 --> 01:30:29.430 heard the word us from any, you know, national 01:30:29.430 --> 01:30:32.770 stage? Like us coming together, making sure that 01:30:32.770 --> 01:30:34.810 our schools are safe, that our teachers are well 01:30:34.810 --> 01:30:37.710 paid. I mean, my son's about to graduate high 01:30:37.710 --> 01:30:40.210 school. Ever since he was tiny, the teachers 01:30:40.210 --> 01:30:42.729 were begging for, and I mean begging in a positive 01:30:42.729 --> 01:30:45.850 way, like they needed school supplies and cleaning 01:30:45.850 --> 01:30:49.079 supplies. And, you know, and so. The parents 01:30:49.079 --> 01:30:51.319 all chipped in, but these are really things that 01:30:51.319 --> 01:30:53.380 should have been included. So the teachers had 01:30:53.380 --> 01:30:55.579 all the ability to, you know, for the books and 01:30:55.579 --> 01:30:57.720 the papers and the pens and things that I would 01:30:57.720 --> 01:31:00.060 imagine that we had that were taken care of when 01:31:00.060 --> 01:31:02.260 we were little. And then you look at the fire 01:31:02.260 --> 01:31:05.199 service, like I said, low balling these figures. 01:31:05.239 --> 01:31:07.180 So you've got two on a rig and then God forbid, 01:31:07.260 --> 01:31:09.180 you know, people are killed in the fire. Then 01:31:09.180 --> 01:31:11.119 there's this big investigation and there's millions 01:31:11.119 --> 01:31:13.079 of dollars of lawsuits that could have been simply 01:31:13.079 --> 01:31:15.039 put into hiring those firefighters in the first 01:31:15.039 --> 01:31:19.210 place. At what point do we go, where are our 01:31:19.210 --> 01:31:20.930 priorities? And I'll give you a perfect example. 01:31:22.069 --> 01:31:25.890 For arguably 30 plus years now, the obesity epidemic, 01:31:26.050 --> 01:31:28.310 probably more in the US, has been getting worse 01:31:28.310 --> 01:31:32.970 and worse and worse. And the drain on the Medicare, 01:31:33.189 --> 01:31:36.890 Medicaid system from that alone is in the, I 01:31:36.890 --> 01:31:38.789 believe, if I'm not mistaken, the trillions. 01:31:39.430 --> 01:31:42.689 It's a ridiculous amount of money. So that alone, 01:31:42.829 --> 01:31:46.220 to me, it's like we... We don't want more money. 01:31:46.600 --> 01:31:48.659 Fire departments don't want more money. Teachers 01:31:48.659 --> 01:31:51.340 don't want more money than is already being spent. 01:31:51.439 --> 01:31:54.659 We just want you to proactively invest. So you 01:31:54.659 --> 01:31:57.899 make the nation healthy. Imagine all the funds 01:31:57.899 --> 01:32:00.000 that will become available for all these other 01:32:00.000 --> 01:32:02.640 programs. You, you, you know, you'd be proactive 01:32:02.640 --> 01:32:05.159 when it comes to drug prohibition, stop arresting 01:32:05.159 --> 01:32:07.279 addicts, unless they've done an actual crime, 01:32:07.359 --> 01:32:08.819 you know, like beating someone up or robbing 01:32:08.819 --> 01:32:12.359 the house and put it into the healthcare system. 01:32:12.920 --> 01:32:15.140 Let them actually get the help that they truly 01:32:15.140 --> 01:32:16.979 need. Addiction, mental health counseling, all 01:32:16.979 --> 01:32:19.119 the things. And now all of a sudden the crime 01:32:19.119 --> 01:32:22.060 goes down. So it's another place. Now our police 01:32:22.060 --> 01:32:25.180 officers maybe don't have to wear all this tactical 01:32:25.180 --> 01:32:27.260 gear like they go into Fallujah. Like everything 01:32:27.260 --> 01:32:29.960 gets safer. The schools get safer. And it's not 01:32:29.960 --> 01:32:33.239 an oversimplification because we all know that 01:32:33.239 --> 01:32:34.819 the people that are real experts in all these 01:32:34.819 --> 01:32:38.069 areas, the economics is undeniable. And countries 01:32:38.069 --> 01:32:40.369 that have done it differently have seen, you 01:32:40.369 --> 01:32:42.210 know, an immense saving. So I think this is the 01:32:42.210 --> 01:32:45.489 conversation. Fire departments and teachers and 01:32:45.489 --> 01:32:48.229 all these different groups are labeled as greedy. 01:32:48.390 --> 01:32:52.090 We want more money, more money. We need the funds, 01:32:52.109 --> 01:32:54.489 but we don't want more money. We want the real 01:32:54.489 --> 01:32:57.470 leaders of the world to step up, be proactive, 01:32:57.930 --> 01:33:00.430 take the money that's being wasted and invest 01:33:00.430 --> 01:33:02.069 it in the people. And it's the same with the 01:33:02.069 --> 01:33:04.069 firefighter work week. It's the same with the 01:33:04.069 --> 01:33:06.800 obesity crisis. We've got to stop the downstream 01:33:06.800 --> 01:33:10.399 bleeding. But there needs to be a national conversation. 01:33:10.680 --> 01:33:13.119 And even most recently, we were told that we're 01:33:13.119 --> 01:33:15.039 supposedly going to make America healthy again. 01:33:15.359 --> 01:33:17.460 Well, I haven't heard anything apart from food 01:33:17.460 --> 01:33:21.000 dies. And here we are now in basically May. So 01:33:21.000 --> 01:33:25.640 the money is there. We are such an affluent country, 01:33:25.760 --> 01:33:30.500 but we have to be proactive and invest. The areas 01:33:30.500 --> 01:33:33.399 that stop us spending money needlessly, then 01:33:33.399 --> 01:33:35.779 take that money and really invest in schools 01:33:35.779 --> 01:33:40.039 and public safety and pedestrianized public areas 01:33:40.039 --> 01:33:42.140 where people can be out and move and play and 01:33:42.140 --> 01:33:44.859 get sunshine and have community. But you don't 01:33:44.859 --> 01:33:46.899 hear that. It's just, oh, we need more money, 01:33:46.920 --> 01:33:48.680 more money, more money. And that's when you get 01:33:48.680 --> 01:33:50.699 this chopping block mentality in these cities 01:33:50.699 --> 01:33:54.600 and counties. Yeah. Like you said, I think a 01:33:54.600 --> 01:33:57.090 lot of it. You know, talking about, you know, 01:33:57.090 --> 01:34:01.989 if we want to go back to the sleep issue, I think 01:34:01.989 --> 01:34:07.829 we could work the shifts we're working if our 01:34:07.829 --> 01:34:12.170 call volume was normal, right? If we had, like 01:34:12.170 --> 01:34:14.630 you said, if we had that tiered 911 system where 01:34:14.630 --> 01:34:19.449 we triaged the calls and appropriately put the, 01:34:19.569 --> 01:34:22.590 you know, the rescue resources where they were 01:34:22.590 --> 01:34:26.090 needed. you know a true medical emergency as 01:34:26.090 --> 01:34:28.170 opposed to someone calling 911 because they have 01:34:28.170 --> 01:34:30.090 a headache and they think they can get into the 01:34:30.090 --> 01:34:34.250 er faster right if we would have a normal call 01:34:34.250 --> 01:34:37.649 volume that was true like think about when you 01:34:37.649 --> 01:34:39.869 were working right all the calls you went on 01:34:39.869 --> 01:34:43.369 how many actually were 911 like actual emergencies 01:34:43.369 --> 01:34:47.029 right yeah how many of them required a paramedic 01:34:47.029 --> 01:34:52.020 probably 20 You know what I mean? So if we could 01:34:52.020 --> 01:34:56.020 solve that, that problem I think is probably 01:34:56.020 --> 01:35:00.619 easier to solve, right? If you want to talk about 01:35:00.619 --> 01:35:04.699 the hierarchy of what we could solve, like right 01:35:04.699 --> 01:35:07.579 now, that would be one that could easily be solved, 01:35:07.800 --> 01:35:12.000 right? 911 system, triaging the system, getting 01:35:12.000 --> 01:35:14.560 those things, getting appropriate resources to 01:35:14.560 --> 01:35:18.619 where they need to be, and having the fixes to 01:35:18.619 --> 01:35:22.199 that. which would deplete the call volumes, take 01:35:22.199 --> 01:35:27.359 away all the runs that we don't need to do five 01:35:27.359 --> 01:35:29.640 times a night after three o 'clock in the morning, 01:35:29.739 --> 01:35:32.060 and then bringing these people to the ER and 01:35:32.060 --> 01:35:34.520 waiting for an hour because no one's available 01:35:34.520 --> 01:35:36.520 in the ER because it's full of people that don't 01:35:36.520 --> 01:35:40.100 need to be there in the first place, right? If 01:35:40.100 --> 01:35:44.060 we could get that solved, you're right. I think 01:35:44.060 --> 01:35:48.560 we would have a giant, huge relief off the call 01:35:48.560 --> 01:35:52.529 volumes. that we could then then we could maybe 01:35:52.529 --> 01:35:55.489 talk about and really actually hamper down into 01:35:55.489 --> 01:35:58.409 how much staffing we really have and all those 01:35:58.409 --> 01:36:01.350 different things you know i mean i remember i 01:36:01.350 --> 01:36:03.890 was reading an article oh this is probably years 01:36:03.890 --> 01:36:06.430 and years ago back when philadelphia was trying 01:36:06.430 --> 01:36:10.920 to cut their budget for the fire department And 01:36:10.920 --> 01:36:15.159 it was in one of the IAFF magazines, blah, blah, 01:36:15.180 --> 01:36:16.640 blah. And they were talking about how they were 01:36:16.640 --> 01:36:18.460 looking to consolidate. They wanted to brown 01:36:18.460 --> 01:36:20.939 out stations and all this different stuff. Well, 01:36:20.960 --> 01:36:22.659 then I did a deep dive. I'm like, well, how many 01:36:22.659 --> 01:36:24.840 stations does Philly have and where are they 01:36:24.840 --> 01:36:27.020 and all those different things? Well, it turns 01:36:27.020 --> 01:36:31.159 out Philadelphia's locations of where their fire 01:36:31.159 --> 01:36:35.859 stations were was the distance a horse could 01:36:35.859 --> 01:36:41.710 travel at full gallop. That's how they determined 01:36:41.710 --> 01:36:44.250 where their stations were. And that became a 01:36:44.250 --> 01:36:48.529 set number. So that's where their stations were. 01:36:48.590 --> 01:36:51.930 It had nothing to do with call volume. It had 01:36:51.930 --> 01:36:55.189 nothing to do with where the resources were needed 01:36:55.189 --> 01:36:57.289 and adequately staffed. None of that mattered. 01:36:57.390 --> 01:36:59.170 The only thing that mattered was the distance 01:36:59.170 --> 01:37:02.909 a traveling horse could go at full gallop in 01:37:02.909 --> 01:37:05.649 1900 when they were pulling a freaking steamer. 01:37:07.630 --> 01:37:11.449 So when they're talking about consolidating stations, 01:37:11.949 --> 01:37:14.069 their stations are a mile and a half or two miles 01:37:14.069 --> 01:37:17.590 away from each other. I couldn't imagine having 01:37:17.590 --> 01:37:21.149 a station that close. Or closer. What about the 01:37:21.149 --> 01:37:22.770 population, though? I mean, if it's New York. 01:37:22.810 --> 01:37:25.510 It's a population. I know. But what I'm saying 01:37:25.510 --> 01:37:29.189 is it goes into this is the problem with, you 01:37:29.189 --> 01:37:32.590 know, how do we fix all this stuff? And there's 01:37:32.590 --> 01:37:37.619 so many minutiae of history. and levels of bureaucracy 01:37:37.619 --> 01:37:41.039 and the reasons why so many things are the way 01:37:41.039 --> 01:37:45.560 they're done that we just have no idea. We just 01:37:45.560 --> 01:37:49.439 have no idea. And like you said, we need to go 01:37:49.439 --> 01:37:53.560 back to call volume is super high. Absolutely. 01:37:53.920 --> 01:37:57.380 Stress, sleeplessness, those are all huge things 01:37:57.380 --> 01:37:59.220 and they're all the reasons why we're having 01:37:59.220 --> 01:38:02.039 a lot of the problems we're having. But what 01:38:02.039 --> 01:38:07.109 is the root cause of that? The calls. Well, can 01:38:07.109 --> 01:38:10.350 we do anything about the call volume? Can we 01:38:10.350 --> 01:38:13.170 can we actually control that? Can we actually 01:38:13.170 --> 01:38:16.770 make a big dent in a big difference into taking 01:38:16.770 --> 01:38:20.649 that call volume down? Right. What do we really 01:38:20.649 --> 01:38:24.189 have control over? We can really control a 911 01:38:24.189 --> 01:38:27.350 system, you know, and again, it goes back to 01:38:27.350 --> 01:38:31.149 municipalities. So in our county, the sheriff's 01:38:31.149 --> 01:38:35.710 department controls 911. They do not want to 01:38:35.710 --> 01:38:40.890 have a tier system. Why? I'll tell you why. Because 01:38:40.890 --> 01:38:43.729 that would mean that every dispatcher would have 01:38:43.729 --> 01:38:46.409 to get trained as an EMD, an emergency medical 01:38:46.409 --> 01:38:49.470 dispatcher, which would mean more training, which 01:38:49.470 --> 01:38:51.670 would mean more money, which would mean they'd 01:38:51.670 --> 01:38:54.489 have to pay them more. And they have no interest 01:38:54.489 --> 01:38:57.409 in doing that. How do they receive medical calls 01:38:57.409 --> 01:39:01.930 if they're not trained? It's a dispatcher. You're 01:39:01.930 --> 01:39:04.460 literally just... You're an operator on the phone. 01:39:05.079 --> 01:39:07.979 So they don't have any ability to... 911, what's 01:39:07.979 --> 01:39:10.140 your emergency? I'm having a heart attack. What's 01:39:10.140 --> 01:39:12.859 your address? You're in this municipality. Page 01:39:12.859 --> 01:39:15.359 them. Oh my goodness. So they can't tell you 01:39:15.359 --> 01:39:18.699 it's Delta Echo, Charlie, none of that. Nope, 01:39:18.779 --> 01:39:22.180 doesn't matter. Crazy. Doesn't matter. So there 01:39:22.180 --> 01:39:24.359 we go. It's another issue that needs to be addressed 01:39:24.359 --> 01:39:27.880 then. So yeah, like I was saying, it's complicated. 01:39:28.060 --> 01:39:30.100 It's way more complicated than people realize. 01:39:30.340 --> 01:39:32.939 That's on a county level. That's not even a state 01:39:32.939 --> 01:39:35.100 level. That's not even on a municipality level. 01:39:35.279 --> 01:39:38.020 That's just that's just one county of 72 in the 01:39:38.020 --> 01:39:41.039 state of Wisconsin. Now, multiply that by how 01:39:41.039 --> 01:39:44.319 many counties we have in the country. Every county 01:39:44.319 --> 01:39:47.539 is different. Every single county is different. 01:39:47.680 --> 01:39:50.640 So they're not even able to give advice. They 01:39:50.640 --> 01:39:53.859 can't talk through someone through CPR or a choking 01:39:53.859 --> 01:39:56.060 incident. That doesn't take medical training 01:39:56.060 --> 01:40:01.020 to do that. It doesn't take training to. Tell 01:40:01.020 --> 01:40:03.119 someone to keep thumping on someone's chest? 01:40:03.420 --> 01:40:07.140 The correct way? They can't tell you. They have 01:40:07.140 --> 01:40:08.739 no idea if they're doing it correctly or not. 01:40:09.479 --> 01:40:12.680 They can just tell you, keep doing chest compressions. 01:40:13.439 --> 01:40:19.159 Help is on the way. That sounds to me like that's 01:40:19.159 --> 01:40:20.859 another thing that should be a national standard 01:40:20.859 --> 01:40:22.579 in the world of dispatch. If you're dealing with 01:40:22.579 --> 01:40:26.340 medical and fire 911 calls, you should have the 01:40:26.340 --> 01:40:29.680 relevant training. You want to get into more 01:40:29.680 --> 01:40:32.859 of it, I can tell you more stories. So here in 01:40:32.859 --> 01:40:35.359 the city of Wausau, before the sheriff's department 01:40:35.359 --> 01:40:39.539 took over 9 -1 -1, 9 -1 -1 was done by our fire 01:40:39.539 --> 01:40:42.359 department. Any 9 -1 -1 call that would come 01:40:42.359 --> 01:40:44.699 in would come into the city fire department. 01:40:45.539 --> 01:40:47.880 Whoever was the lowest man on the totem pole 01:40:47.880 --> 01:40:50.239 at the fire department at the time, it was called 01:40:50.239 --> 01:40:54.899 desk duty. You got the desk, you would take shifts 01:40:54.899 --> 01:40:58.130 over your 24 hours. The young guy would do the 01:40:58.130 --> 01:41:02.390 desk. He'd answer all the 911 calls. And that 01:41:02.390 --> 01:41:06.310 firefighter would determine what the situation 01:41:06.310 --> 01:41:08.689 was and who would have to get dispatched out. 01:41:09.550 --> 01:41:12.949 That was it. How long ago was this? That was 01:41:12.949 --> 01:41:18.670 changed in the mid -90s. They changed that. It 01:41:18.670 --> 01:41:21.289 was called the doghouse rule. Because that's 01:41:21.289 --> 01:41:24.470 the old school way of doing it. That was until 01:41:24.470 --> 01:41:28.300 the mid -90s here. But since the mid -90s, they've 01:41:28.300 --> 01:41:31.140 never been trained on fire and medical EMS. They've 01:41:31.140 --> 01:41:35.800 never had to have the EMD. No. I mean, to me, 01:41:35.840 --> 01:41:37.640 that sounds crazy. I don't know. Maybe that's 01:41:37.640 --> 01:41:39.579 how it is in other countries, but it sounds crazy 01:41:39.579 --> 01:41:43.779 to me. No, that's how it is. I'm trying to think. 01:41:43.880 --> 01:41:45.680 I think there's only a couple of counties in 01:41:45.680 --> 01:41:47.619 the entire state of Wisconsin that have actual 01:41:47.619 --> 01:41:51.939 EMD of all the 72. I think you can count on one 01:41:51.939 --> 01:41:54.100 hand how many there are, and they're all urban. 01:41:54.859 --> 01:41:57.859 See, what's interesting as well is that they're 01:41:57.859 --> 01:41:59.819 not the rural counties. And that's just 911. 01:42:00.060 --> 01:42:02.939 That's just on a county level. You've talked 01:42:02.939 --> 01:42:05.840 about a really amazing initiative, which is paying 01:42:05.840 --> 01:42:08.840 for fire school. Like free education, I think, 01:42:08.840 --> 01:42:10.560 is, you know, you want to invest in your people 01:42:10.560 --> 01:42:13.260 that's going to give back for 20 plus years. 01:42:13.479 --> 01:42:15.619 Putting young people, you know, obviously with 01:42:15.619 --> 01:42:18.939 a testing initiative through all this training 01:42:18.939 --> 01:42:21.159 and then creating all these great firefighter 01:42:21.159 --> 01:42:24.140 EMTs and paramedics. Amazing. But then on the 01:42:24.140 --> 01:42:26.420 other side, when it comes to the dispatch side, 01:42:26.640 --> 01:42:30.159 not so amazing. And just like you said, this 01:42:30.159 --> 01:42:32.739 has been really eye -opening for me. And working 01:42:32.739 --> 01:42:35.319 either side of the country really started opening 01:42:35.319 --> 01:42:40.100 my eyes initially, was we are so siloed that 01:42:40.100 --> 01:42:43.119 you have these two departments right next to 01:42:43.119 --> 01:42:45.300 each other, doing it completely different, sometimes 01:42:45.300 --> 01:42:47.880 not even talking to each other. God forbid you 01:42:47.880 --> 01:42:50.890 get a multi -agency incident. But that means 01:42:50.890 --> 01:42:53.670 that people aren't sharing all the things that 01:42:53.670 --> 01:42:56.170 are working well. Like Wisconsin, education. 01:42:56.590 --> 01:42:59.069 Yeah, we'll definitely take this. Well, California, 01:42:59.329 --> 01:43:01.550 can we borrow your EMD? Because we're really 01:43:01.550 --> 01:43:03.890 behind on this area. Then the Northeast, hey, 01:43:04.010 --> 01:43:06.689 well, California, tell me about your volunteer. 01:43:06.850 --> 01:43:08.850 We still want to have a volunteer tier, but we 01:43:08.850 --> 01:43:11.069 really need to start making these positions career 01:43:11.069 --> 01:43:13.810 now. So how can we use that to filter through 01:43:13.810 --> 01:43:15.430 young people and give them an opportunity to 01:43:15.430 --> 01:43:17.949 be exposed to this profession? So this is what's 01:43:17.949 --> 01:43:20.229 so interesting with this podcast is I get to 01:43:20.229 --> 01:43:23.590 speak to people from all over the world. But 01:43:23.590 --> 01:43:26.029 yeah, I mean, some areas it blows me away how 01:43:26.029 --> 01:43:28.609 innovative and how they have amazing solutions 01:43:28.609 --> 01:43:30.930 to some of our problems. But then as you touched 01:43:30.930 --> 01:43:34.039 on. you know, two people on a rig and, you know, 01:43:34.079 --> 01:43:36.520 the police person, police dispatcher answering 01:43:36.520 --> 01:43:39.539 a medical call, having no real way of really 01:43:39.539 --> 01:43:41.819 relaying what might be a lifesaving intervention. 01:43:42.220 --> 01:43:46.279 You know, this is not ridiculing Wisconsin in 01:43:46.279 --> 01:43:48.539 any way, but it just highlights that if we just 01:43:48.539 --> 01:43:51.060 dropped our humility, got rid of the red tape 01:43:51.060 --> 01:43:53.840 and the politics and actually said, how collectively 01:43:53.840 --> 01:43:57.260 can we share each other's knowledge and, you 01:43:57.260 --> 01:44:00.630 know, the rising tide lift all ships. our whole 01:44:00.630 --> 01:44:04.409 profession would would elevate but we don't you 01:44:04.409 --> 01:44:06.750 know we're these little pockets that that more 01:44:06.750 --> 01:44:08.329 often than not don't even talk to each other 01:44:08.329 --> 01:44:12.069 and it's crazy yep and it's it's complicated 01:44:12.069 --> 01:44:15.409 and it's and it's it's different like i said 01:44:15.409 --> 01:44:21.050 in michigan most most of the ems in michigan 01:44:21.050 --> 01:44:25.229 is hospital based they're not run out of the 01:44:25.229 --> 01:44:27.710 fire department There's only a couple of municipalities 01:44:27.710 --> 01:44:31.390 there where they actually run EMS, but most of 01:44:31.390 --> 01:44:34.149 them, most of the ambulances and most of the 01:44:34.149 --> 01:44:37.350 EMS system is run out of the hospital. Same thing 01:44:37.350 --> 01:44:39.529 in Minnesota. Most of it's run out of the, out 01:44:39.529 --> 01:44:43.109 of the hospital based systems, you know? So again, 01:44:43.350 --> 01:44:47.489 you know, LA County, look at LA County, LA County. 01:44:47.949 --> 01:44:51.390 So the city of LA runs ambulance, but LA County. 01:44:52.230 --> 01:44:54.569 They still run the rescues like they did back 01:44:54.569 --> 01:44:56.890 in emergency back in the 70s. Right. Two guys 01:44:56.890 --> 01:45:00.689 on a rescue truck. But their funding, how they 01:45:00.689 --> 01:45:02.930 charge and what their funding model. You know 01:45:02.930 --> 01:45:06.210 what I mean? Like it's it's complicated and it's 01:45:06.210 --> 01:45:08.949 completely different than it would be in Orange 01:45:08.949 --> 01:45:11.210 County, which would be in Marathon County here. 01:45:11.909 --> 01:45:16.029 It's it's just it's so it's just it is it is 01:45:16.029 --> 01:45:20.609 a it's unfortunate that it has to be. so convoluted 01:45:20.609 --> 01:45:23.270 and complicated and the intricacies and the webs 01:45:23.270 --> 01:45:27.109 and the you know the connections and the disconnections 01:45:27.109 --> 01:45:30.529 you know it really is it would just be simpler 01:45:30.529 --> 01:45:34.529 if things were more straightforward and people 01:45:34.529 --> 01:45:38.170 would leave their egos aside you know and they 01:45:38.170 --> 01:45:40.649 would you know do really what's the best thing 01:45:40.649 --> 01:45:44.510 for the entire group you know it would be awesome 01:45:44.510 --> 01:45:49.130 but People are the people are the way they are. 01:45:49.229 --> 01:45:53.449 And, you know, we've we've unfortunately we have 01:45:53.449 --> 01:45:56.649 to work and try to do the best job we can, you 01:45:56.649 --> 01:46:01.710 know, doing with what we can control. And, you 01:46:01.710 --> 01:46:03.810 know, just again, going back to the local level, 01:46:03.850 --> 01:46:06.329 I got to worry about if I'm a lieutenant or captain 01:46:06.329 --> 01:46:09.210 of my station, I'm going to try to advocate the 01:46:09.210 --> 01:46:10.970 best for them. I'm going to make sure that my 01:46:10.970 --> 01:46:13.710 people have the tools and training that they 01:46:13.710 --> 01:46:16.420 need, because that's what I can control. And 01:46:16.420 --> 01:46:19.020 if, you know, something happens, I got to make 01:46:19.020 --> 01:46:21.640 sure that, you know, I am there to help them 01:46:21.640 --> 01:46:24.479 and support them and to do what I can do to help 01:46:24.479 --> 01:46:27.260 those people get through the job and come home 01:46:27.260 --> 01:46:30.619 safely. That's what I can control, you know, 01:46:30.659 --> 01:46:34.079 and I can't, I can only deal with that. And I 01:46:34.079 --> 01:46:37.100 can't, you know, I can change what I can change, 01:46:37.159 --> 01:46:39.779 you know, myself and what I have control over. 01:46:40.260 --> 01:46:43.119 And I can advocate and I can try to put up the 01:46:43.119 --> 01:46:46.149 chain the best, you know. best facts and figures 01:46:46.149 --> 01:46:49.569 and stuff that's possible but like i said you 01:46:49.569 --> 01:46:51.970 know in order for anything to change truly change 01:46:51.970 --> 01:46:55.869 it has to come from the bottom up it really does 01:46:55.869 --> 01:46:58.350 absolutely and i agree with you completely like 01:46:58.350 --> 01:46:59.850 you know you want to change the world start a 01:46:59.850 --> 01:47:01.989 home well if that's a fire station then that's 01:47:01.989 --> 01:47:04.010 where you start your crew and i think what's 01:47:04.010 --> 01:47:08.529 been pretty amazing to watch is the podcast has 01:47:08.529 --> 01:47:11.569 become a way to circumnavigate politics, you 01:47:11.569 --> 01:47:15.130 know, union politics, the walls between cities 01:47:15.130 --> 01:47:18.229 and counties and PD and FD and EMS and these, 01:47:18.350 --> 01:47:20.170 just like we've had, you know, we've gone back 01:47:20.170 --> 01:47:22.470 and forth and had an amazing conversation with 01:47:22.470 --> 01:47:24.529 different perspectives. And this is what needs 01:47:24.529 --> 01:47:26.770 to happen. Like in less than two hours, you know, 01:47:26.770 --> 01:47:29.329 all the things that we've covered and now thousands 01:47:29.329 --> 01:47:31.649 of people are going to listen to this and they're 01:47:31.649 --> 01:47:33.010 probably going to go, wow, I didn't think of 01:47:33.010 --> 01:47:34.810 it this way, you know, from whatever perspective. 01:47:35.470 --> 01:47:38.029 And the goal for the whole podcast is to get 01:47:38.029 --> 01:47:40.579 people what I call educated and angry. you know, 01:47:40.579 --> 01:47:43.119 understand, you know, the whys and then go, well, 01:47:43.159 --> 01:47:44.600 wait a second, why are we doing it this way? 01:47:44.699 --> 01:47:47.140 Why do I not deserve to be home as much as the 01:47:47.140 --> 01:47:51.079 cop? So, you know, this is what's so important, 01:47:51.100 --> 01:47:53.520 but that's exactly like you said, because I believe 01:47:53.520 --> 01:47:55.760 that the base of the pyramid is the most important. 01:47:56.359 --> 01:47:58.760 There's only one person at the very tip. But 01:47:58.760 --> 01:48:00.659 imagine if everyone at the bottom started shaking 01:48:00.659 --> 01:48:02.520 the pyramid. Well, things would start changing. 01:48:02.680 --> 01:48:04.600 You don't need your chief to be on board. You 01:48:04.600 --> 01:48:06.319 don't need your union president to be on board. 01:48:06.600 --> 01:48:09.600 You as a collective department need to get together 01:48:09.600 --> 01:48:12.239 and say, these need to change. You know, we need 01:48:12.239 --> 01:48:13.819 to get more people in the engine. We are going 01:48:13.819 --> 01:48:16.439 to kill someone one day. And yet they just keep, 01:48:16.460 --> 01:48:18.819 you know, doing the same thing or the work week 01:48:18.819 --> 01:48:20.840 or fitness standards or, you know, insert whatever 01:48:20.840 --> 01:48:23.619 here. So, yeah, I mean, I agree completely. And 01:48:23.619 --> 01:48:25.479 this has been a vehicle for that to try and speak 01:48:25.479 --> 01:48:29.729 for. our profession that absolutely are focused 01:48:29.729 --> 01:48:33.069 on their home and their crew and rightly so and 01:48:33.069 --> 01:48:35.689 this is why i like to take on this fight myself 01:48:35.689 --> 01:48:38.670 so i can be a voice for them that being said 01:48:38.670 --> 01:48:40.689 we've been talking for an hour 45 minutes i want 01:48:40.689 --> 01:48:42.569 to make sure that we would talk about your books 01:48:42.569 --> 01:48:46.689 and you know the the uh the teachings and coaching 01:48:46.689 --> 01:48:50.600 that you offer now so as a precursor you had 01:48:50.600 --> 01:48:53.579 this interesting career through the education 01:48:53.579 --> 01:48:56.079 system that into the fire system ultimately as 01:48:56.079 --> 01:48:59.260 a leader in the fire service at what point did 01:48:59.260 --> 01:49:02.979 you decide that you look to things a little differently 01:49:02.979 --> 01:49:05.000 and wanted to write books about your perspective 01:49:05.000 --> 01:49:10.859 well it goes back to like we were talking about 01:49:10.859 --> 01:49:14.460 before what what can you control is really what 01:49:14.460 --> 01:49:16.680 you can really worry about right you can't really 01:49:16.680 --> 01:49:18.840 worry about stuff you that's completely outside 01:49:18.840 --> 01:49:24.239 of your control. So when I was fire chief, I 01:49:24.239 --> 01:49:27.439 did a horrible job. 100%. I will fully admit, 01:49:27.600 --> 01:49:31.779 I was a massive failure on everything and everything, 01:49:32.079 --> 01:49:34.979 you know, that I could possibly do to go wrong 01:49:34.979 --> 01:49:37.260 or to, you know, I was ripping band -aids off 01:49:37.260 --> 01:49:41.699 and blowing bridges up. And I did not play politics. 01:49:43.300 --> 01:49:45.619 I did it because I don't, I agree with you. I 01:49:45.619 --> 01:49:48.109 hate politics, James. I can't stand it. i think 01:49:48.109 --> 01:49:49.789 it's it's horrible it's a waste of time it's 01:49:49.789 --> 01:49:52.590 screw it's it's it's the root of almost all evils 01:49:52.590 --> 01:49:55.829 right politics and money and i 100 and i did 01:49:55.829 --> 01:49:58.149 not play politics when i was the chief and i 01:49:58.149 --> 01:50:03.970 tried to force change and i tried to do things 01:50:03.970 --> 01:50:09.449 you know that did not um didn't go with the flow 01:50:09.449 --> 01:50:12.310 of what's been done for the past 100 years i 01:50:12.310 --> 01:50:14.449 tried to you know nope we're just going to make 01:50:14.449 --> 01:50:16.350 this change because this is the right thing to 01:50:16.350 --> 01:50:21.920 do And I didn't spend the time educating, even 01:50:21.920 --> 01:50:24.579 though I had been a teacher and have been a teacher 01:50:24.579 --> 01:50:27.180 for over 20 some years, right? Even though I've 01:50:27.180 --> 01:50:29.680 got a master's degree in educational leadership. 01:50:30.159 --> 01:50:34.279 I knew better, but I did not. I was trying to 01:50:34.279 --> 01:50:37.710 force round pegs and square holes. Or I should 01:50:37.710 --> 01:50:39.930 say square pegs and round holes, right? Because 01:50:39.930 --> 01:50:41.670 obviously a circle is going to fit in a square. 01:50:41.789 --> 01:50:45.850 But, you know, I didn't do a good job communicating. 01:50:46.029 --> 01:50:49.729 I didn't do a good job of shaking hands and doing 01:50:49.729 --> 01:50:52.149 the things I needed to do as a chief. I didn't. 01:50:52.670 --> 01:50:56.590 And I paid the price for it myself. And the department 01:50:56.590 --> 01:51:00.789 paid a price for it because I didn't act in the 01:51:00.789 --> 01:51:03.550 role that I should have acted in. And I didn't. 01:51:03.550 --> 01:51:08.119 I didn't. I don't want to call it a value in 01:51:08.119 --> 01:51:10.560 politics, but I didn't see how important it really 01:51:10.560 --> 01:51:14.600 was to really getting things done or to really 01:51:14.600 --> 01:51:18.239 making the changes that need to be made. So my 01:51:18.239 --> 01:51:21.100 second book, Read Before Leading, that's where 01:51:21.100 --> 01:51:24.960 that book comes up. That's all the massive problems 01:51:24.960 --> 01:51:29.600 that I caused and the things that I did and the 01:51:29.600 --> 01:51:32.050 things I wish I wouldn't have done. You know, 01:51:32.130 --> 01:51:35.050 that book was written purely as a leadership 01:51:35.050 --> 01:51:38.090 book. Don't do what I did. Don't rip those Band 01:51:38.090 --> 01:51:41.630 -Aids off. Politics sucks, but it's a part of 01:51:41.630 --> 01:51:44.470 the position, especially at the higher levels, 01:51:44.630 --> 01:51:46.649 where you're going to have to do the things. 01:51:46.689 --> 01:51:48.949 And it's going to take time. That's the thing 01:51:48.949 --> 01:51:51.569 that I hated and I still have a hard time with 01:51:51.569 --> 01:51:54.779 is I don't have a lot of patience. Right. We're 01:51:54.779 --> 01:51:57.279 especially in this service. We're all type A 01:51:57.279 --> 01:51:59.079 personalities and we want to get things done. 01:51:59.199 --> 01:52:00.640 Let's just do it right now. What are we waiting 01:52:00.640 --> 01:52:02.640 for? We know it has to be done. Just freaking 01:52:02.640 --> 01:52:06.960 get it done. And the thing I learned on the backside 01:52:06.960 --> 01:52:10.479 of that was patience. And it's going to take 01:52:10.479 --> 01:52:13.319 time. And, you know, especially big changes, 01:52:13.340 --> 01:52:15.859 big changes are going to take time. And if you 01:52:15.859 --> 01:52:19.100 want to get things done right. And if that's 01:52:19.100 --> 01:52:21.800 your goal. Right. If this is the goal, it's not 01:52:21.800 --> 01:52:24.430 going to happen. In six months, it's not going 01:52:24.430 --> 01:52:27.329 to happen maybe in two, three, four years. It 01:52:27.329 --> 01:52:31.369 may be a five -year plan or a 10 -year plan to 01:52:31.369 --> 01:52:34.670 get to where you want to get. But I needed to 01:52:34.670 --> 01:52:38.029 learn that I needed to have the patience to investigate 01:52:38.029 --> 01:52:40.710 all the things we had just talked about. I didn't 01:52:40.710 --> 01:52:43.850 do a good job finding out who the political players 01:52:43.850 --> 01:52:47.729 were. I didn't find out who the different advocacy 01:52:47.729 --> 01:52:51.609 or different agencies that I would need to pull 01:52:51.609 --> 01:52:54.779 on board. to support me. I was trying to do everything 01:52:54.779 --> 01:52:58.500 by myself. And it doesn't work like that, right? 01:52:59.260 --> 01:53:01.199 Especially when you're in the municipal level, 01:53:01.340 --> 01:53:03.859 it takes everyone to work together. Everyone 01:53:03.859 --> 01:53:06.180 needs to play together in the same sandbox. We 01:53:06.180 --> 01:53:08.600 can't just be throwing out everyone else's toys 01:53:08.600 --> 01:53:10.779 and digging a hole for myself in the corner. 01:53:10.920 --> 01:53:12.960 We all have to work together in that sandbox. 01:53:13.300 --> 01:53:17.500 And I did not do a good job of doing the things 01:53:17.500 --> 01:53:20.000 I needed to do to try to get everyone to work 01:53:20.000 --> 01:53:22.840 together to help. Instead of building a sandcastle 01:53:22.840 --> 01:53:24.579 together, I was just trying to build one myself. 01:53:25.140 --> 01:53:27.460 And I was knocking everyone else's sandcastles 01:53:27.460 --> 01:53:31.699 down that were next to mine. Because I had my 01:53:31.699 --> 01:53:34.060 people and I had my department and I was in charge 01:53:34.060 --> 01:53:36.899 of, you know, that's not the way to do it. That's 01:53:36.899 --> 01:53:40.079 not going to be successful. And you're going 01:53:40.079 --> 01:53:41.600 to make more enemies than you're going to make 01:53:41.600 --> 01:53:46.579 friends. So that second book is all about that. 01:53:47.000 --> 01:53:51.039 My first book. Two Dark Thirty, I wrote because 01:53:51.039 --> 01:53:54.680 of the teaching aspect. So when I got hurt on 01:53:54.680 --> 01:53:58.479 my first back injury, because of my history having 01:53:58.479 --> 01:54:02.380 been a teacher, I was kind of put into the position 01:54:02.380 --> 01:54:05.579 of, hey, Mark's the teacher. He can teach all 01:54:05.579 --> 01:54:09.760 the new guys. Fine. I like teaching. I don't 01:54:09.760 --> 01:54:12.039 have a problem with that. But what happens when 01:54:12.039 --> 01:54:14.500 you give someone the job and responsibility? 01:54:15.479 --> 01:54:17.119 and then they then you take them out of that 01:54:17.119 --> 01:54:20.020 role or you or they get hurt and they get sidelined 01:54:20.020 --> 01:54:24.579 well now who fills the hole right so i was fielding 01:54:24.579 --> 01:54:27.800 phone calls i was getting emails about hey when 01:54:27.800 --> 01:54:29.619 you were doing this on that crew what were you 01:54:29.619 --> 01:54:32.119 doing or you know what was going on with this 01:54:32.119 --> 01:54:35.039 so i realized that i'm like you know what i've 01:54:35.039 --> 01:54:37.340 got experience and i kind of know what i'm doing 01:54:37.340 --> 01:54:40.659 teaching wise i should just put all my thoughts 01:54:40.659 --> 01:54:44.159 and ideas down so i did Well, that translated 01:54:44.159 --> 01:54:47.619 then into the book Two Dark Thirty, which was 01:54:47.619 --> 01:54:50.739 all the summation of all the knowledge and all 01:54:50.739 --> 01:54:53.520 the things that I found out how to be a successful 01:54:53.520 --> 01:54:56.420 teacher, you know, how to break things down for 01:54:56.420 --> 01:54:59.180 students, how to look at, you know, what are 01:54:59.180 --> 01:55:02.260 they don't, you know, don't expect them to know 01:55:02.260 --> 01:55:04.340 things right away. Don't assume different things. 01:55:04.500 --> 01:55:06.640 Bring everyone again, a lot of the same kind 01:55:06.640 --> 01:55:08.420 of stuff where you're playing, where you're being 01:55:08.420 --> 01:55:11.500 in a leadership position. Trying to break things 01:55:11.500 --> 01:55:14.520 down simply, try to get things in a logical order, 01:55:14.699 --> 01:55:18.020 try to make sure that you're evaluating people 01:55:18.020 --> 01:55:19.960 correctly, you're looking at the right things 01:55:19.960 --> 01:55:22.399 you want to look at. Because in the end, we want 01:55:22.399 --> 01:55:25.699 these people who are on the bottom of the, like 01:55:25.699 --> 01:55:27.180 you said, the bottom of the pyramid, we want 01:55:27.180 --> 01:55:30.199 to raise them up those hierarchy levels. We want 01:55:30.199 --> 01:55:32.739 to get them to positions where they can take 01:55:32.739 --> 01:55:35.079 control over what they're now knowledgeable of. 01:55:35.159 --> 01:55:37.539 And we can, you know, let them go into the environment 01:55:37.539 --> 01:55:40.529 and, you know. God bless you and get out there 01:55:40.529 --> 01:55:44.250 and do it, right? So that book is purely about 01:55:44.250 --> 01:55:46.909 being a good teacher, how to be an educator, 01:55:47.289 --> 01:55:49.949 how to be a good instructor, how to be a good 01:55:49.949 --> 01:55:53.689 FTO, a mentor, coach, all those different things. 01:55:54.210 --> 01:55:58.109 So the two books, because in my opinion, to be 01:55:58.109 --> 01:56:00.050 a good leader, you need to be a good teacher. 01:56:00.289 --> 01:56:04.869 If you can't teach someone well, at least remotely 01:56:04.869 --> 01:56:08.130 well, then... you're gonna have a hard time leading 01:56:08.130 --> 01:56:11.789 anything because part of your job as a leader 01:56:11.789 --> 01:56:14.909 at least the true job of the leader like we talked 01:56:14.909 --> 01:56:18.430 about is worrying about your crew your staff 01:56:18.430 --> 01:56:21.649 and making sure that you're supporting them and 01:56:21.649 --> 01:56:25.310 giving them everything that you need to get to 01:56:25.310 --> 01:56:27.869 them that their job is done successfully and 01:56:27.869 --> 01:56:30.630 safely that is the entire purpose of your job 01:56:30.630 --> 01:56:33.840 as a leader So if that means teaching, that means 01:56:33.840 --> 01:56:35.880 teaching. If that means showing them how to do 01:56:35.880 --> 01:56:38.180 something and instructing them how to do it, 01:56:38.199 --> 01:56:41.779 that's what it means. So I think those two books 01:56:41.779 --> 01:56:45.220 are, they go hand in hand, you know, which is 01:56:45.220 --> 01:56:49.020 why I wrote them. But really, for me, it was 01:56:49.020 --> 01:56:51.939 about, you know, sharing all my knowledge and 01:56:51.939 --> 01:56:53.979 getting the word out. Because like you said, 01:56:54.060 --> 01:56:57.239 so many people are out there on social media, 01:56:57.359 --> 01:57:00.210 you know, pounding their chest. you know having 01:57:00.210 --> 01:57:04.789 these salty mustaches and you know acting like 01:57:04.789 --> 01:57:08.409 they're the biggest king in the world and you 01:57:08.409 --> 01:57:11.489 know it's it's hard to watch sometimes and it's 01:57:11.489 --> 01:57:13.430 hard to listen to some of their views sometimes 01:57:13.430 --> 01:57:16.470 and it's just like oh you're not helping you 01:57:16.470 --> 01:57:19.069 know you that's not that's not the best way to 01:57:19.069 --> 01:57:23.609 do it um but we have to make mistakes you know 01:57:24.000 --> 01:57:26.760 Life's about making mistakes. Life is about failing 01:57:26.760 --> 01:57:30.819 miserably and learning from those mistakes. And 01:57:30.819 --> 01:57:34.279 I wouldn't be where I am now if I hadn't have 01:57:34.279 --> 01:57:36.000 done all the screw -ups and all the mistakes 01:57:36.000 --> 01:57:40.600 I made either. So I wanted to write things that 01:57:40.600 --> 01:57:43.039 are conversational, that aren't written like 01:57:43.039 --> 01:57:45.460 a textbook, that you could sit down and just 01:57:45.460 --> 01:57:47.079 read like you and I are having a conversation. 01:57:47.239 --> 01:57:50.020 That's how I wrote them. And the audio books 01:57:50.020 --> 01:57:53.510 are, yep, that's me. Drone it on in my stupid 01:57:53.510 --> 01:57:57.310 Midwestern accent. Yeah, that's me talking. That's 01:57:57.310 --> 01:57:59.449 me discussing what I know and what I've had and 01:57:59.449 --> 01:58:04.109 what I've done. And if you can grab something 01:58:04.109 --> 01:58:08.189 from it, great. If it can spur on a discussion 01:58:08.189 --> 01:58:12.869 with someone, fantastic. If we can have a new 01:58:12.869 --> 01:58:15.010 idea or, hey, I want to try that or I'm going 01:58:15.010 --> 01:58:16.789 to take that idea and I'm going to twist it to 01:58:16.789 --> 01:58:20.930 fit my situation, awesome. That's all I want. 01:58:21.289 --> 01:58:26.729 That's all I want. Question for you. Yeah. If 01:58:26.729 --> 01:58:29.909 you were king for a day and you could literally, 01:58:30.130 --> 01:58:34.130 as they say in Disney, reimagine the group of 01:58:34.130 --> 01:58:36.930 people that you have to interact with as a fire 01:58:36.930 --> 01:58:41.050 chief so that that conversation would simply 01:58:41.050 --> 01:58:43.989 be, like I said, that room of grownups that were 01:58:43.989 --> 01:58:46.050 really just trying to do the best thing for their 01:58:46.050 --> 01:58:50.189 community. What would need to be in place so 01:58:50.189 --> 01:58:53.270 that the other members of these departments were 01:58:53.270 --> 01:58:55.630 the right kind of people that wouldn't create 01:58:55.630 --> 01:58:57.989 all these barriers and you wouldn't have to politic 01:58:57.989 --> 01:59:01.270 with? You just simply have the same kind of conversation 01:59:01.270 --> 01:59:03.970 that we had today. Get to the root of the problem, 01:59:04.130 --> 01:59:06.869 figure out what is the path to the solution, 01:59:07.109 --> 01:59:09.970 and therefore grow and empower your community 01:59:09.970 --> 01:59:13.590 rather than what we're seeing recently, a crumbling 01:59:13.590 --> 01:59:18.670 element. Well, number one, if I was king for 01:59:18.670 --> 01:59:21.609 a day, I would be probably assassinated right 01:59:21.609 --> 01:59:28.770 away. You know, because unfortunately, it was 01:59:28.770 --> 01:59:32.590 a lot like when I was fire chief. I tried to, 01:59:32.590 --> 01:59:35.970 you know, I tried to make the changes and force 01:59:35.970 --> 01:59:41.130 changes. And, you know, what I have learned. 01:59:41.899 --> 01:59:46.319 Over my time and what I learned in my leadership 01:59:46.319 --> 01:59:51.800 experiences was it's not as simple as just being 01:59:51.800 --> 01:59:54.939 king for a day, unfortunately. It's not just 01:59:54.939 --> 02:00:01.640 being God, right? Go back to the classic Jim 02:00:01.640 --> 02:00:05.520 Carrey movie where he gets all the powers of 02:00:05.520 --> 02:00:09.119 God, right? And he's got to answer everyone's 02:00:09.119 --> 02:00:15.460 emails. People, everyone has, everybody, every 02:00:15.460 --> 02:00:18.659 single person, they all have our own wants, desires, 02:00:18.800 --> 02:00:21.659 needs. We all come with our different perspectives. 02:00:21.760 --> 02:00:23.800 We all come with our different histories. We 02:00:23.800 --> 02:00:26.300 all come with our different backgrounds. We all 02:00:26.300 --> 02:00:29.899 come with our different, you know, could be cultural 02:00:29.899 --> 02:00:32.300 things. It could be even like we talked about 02:00:32.300 --> 02:00:34.899 differences in regionality, you know, weather 02:00:34.899 --> 02:00:38.060 regional differences. I was under a tornado warning 02:00:38.060 --> 02:00:43.159 last night, you know, so. There are so many parts 02:00:43.159 --> 02:00:47.319 to that puzzle that it's never easy to just come 02:00:47.319 --> 02:00:52.300 up with just one answer. It's not. Realistically, 02:00:52.579 --> 02:00:55.500 you know, in a perfect world that we don't live 02:00:55.500 --> 02:00:59.640 in, it should be easy to just make, you know, 02:00:59.640 --> 02:01:03.399 make consensus decisions and say, hey, we should 02:01:03.399 --> 02:01:07.430 just, you know, why don't we do. You know, a 02:01:07.430 --> 02:01:09.590 certain percentage of the property tax is going 02:01:09.590 --> 02:01:12.430 to be just directly related to the fire and EMS 02:01:12.430 --> 02:01:15.390 service. And we're going to base it like this. 02:01:15.409 --> 02:01:17.069 And this is the tier structure. And we're going 02:01:17.069 --> 02:01:19.170 to incorporate all the best ideas across the 02:01:19.170 --> 02:01:21.289 nation. And this is how we're going to do it. 02:01:21.770 --> 02:01:25.529 That would be awesome, right? But again, it takes 02:01:25.529 --> 02:01:29.909 more than just fire and EMS, right? It's the 02:01:29.909 --> 02:01:34.720 ER system. It's our healthcare system. You know, 02:01:34.760 --> 02:01:37.100 you just, you know, we just talked to, you mentioned 02:01:37.100 --> 02:01:39.819 the making America healthy again. Yeah, it's 02:01:39.819 --> 02:01:43.920 massive, you know, problems with obesity and, 02:01:43.960 --> 02:01:46.899 you know, the things that go into our foods and 02:01:46.899 --> 02:01:49.140 the sugar, the refining sugars that were, you 02:01:49.140 --> 02:01:51.560 know, all the, you know, junk food that's out 02:01:51.560 --> 02:01:53.739 there. What's in the kids, what's in the kids' 02:01:53.840 --> 02:01:56.680 lunches at school or what kids are coming home 02:01:56.680 --> 02:01:59.880 to and eating or the, you know, shockingly, the 02:01:59.880 --> 02:02:02.060 shockingly high statistic of how many people 02:02:02.060 --> 02:02:06.880 eat fast food. as their main food for the day 02:02:06.880 --> 02:02:09.439 you know they don't go they don't make their 02:02:09.439 --> 02:02:12.180 own food they just eat out every day every meal 02:02:12.180 --> 02:02:16.300 you know and that's huge hugely high in urban 02:02:16.300 --> 02:02:19.840 areas right they go out to lunch at their work 02:02:19.840 --> 02:02:21.500 they go out to lunch and then when they're coming 02:02:21.500 --> 02:02:23.699 home they don't make their own dinner they go 02:02:23.699 --> 02:02:26.060 out and have dinner at 8 30 at night on some 02:02:26.060 --> 02:02:29.520 restaurant and pay you know But that's their 02:02:29.520 --> 02:02:31.539 culture, but that's their way. But again, going 02:02:31.539 --> 02:02:33.939 back, it's not just one simple thing. It's so 02:02:33.939 --> 02:02:36.840 many things that are together and it would be 02:02:36.840 --> 02:02:41.239 hard, almost impossible really to be the king 02:02:41.239 --> 02:02:43.539 for the day, to make all the decisions, to just 02:02:43.539 --> 02:02:46.619 make everything correct. Because like you said, 02:02:46.760 --> 02:02:49.960 it, it, it's not just one thing. It's the education 02:02:49.960 --> 02:02:54.960 system has to be changed. You know, the everything, 02:02:55.180 --> 02:02:57.800 everything has to be changed. It really does. 02:02:58.909 --> 02:03:04.949 And, you know, it's so much that has to be fixed 02:03:04.949 --> 02:03:11.170 that it can be overwhelming. And where do you 02:03:11.170 --> 02:03:14.850 start? Well, you know, it's the old saying, you 02:03:14.850 --> 02:03:16.689 know, the journey of a thousand miles starts 02:03:16.689 --> 02:03:19.569 with one step. You know, and it goes back to 02:03:19.569 --> 02:03:21.930 what I said. We can only deal with what we can 02:03:21.930 --> 02:03:25.510 control. And for me, that's, you know, locally. 02:03:26.109 --> 02:03:29.270 You know, I can't worry about Florida. I can 02:03:29.270 --> 02:03:30.989 only worry about what we do here in Wisconsin, 02:03:31.270 --> 02:03:34.689 you know, and just vice versa. You can't worry 02:03:34.689 --> 02:03:36.670 about what goes on in Wisconsin. You can't worry 02:03:36.670 --> 02:03:39.170 about what goes on in Minnesota. You know, I 02:03:39.170 --> 02:03:42.369 give my hope and I can give you my support and 02:03:42.369 --> 02:03:44.710 I can, you know, give you all the things that 02:03:44.710 --> 02:03:47.470 I can give you to help you in your process to 02:03:47.470 --> 02:03:50.770 get to where you want to go. But it's us. It's 02:03:50.770 --> 02:03:53.789 up to us individually, locally, that we're ever 02:03:53.789 --> 02:03:56.500 going to really see anything really. really change. 02:03:57.159 --> 02:03:59.000 Let me rephrase the question because that was 02:03:59.000 --> 02:04:00.539 a great answer to the question, but I want to 02:04:00.539 --> 02:04:03.520 pinpoint it a little bit more. A lot of the issues 02:04:03.520 --> 02:04:07.159 that we discussed today, including obesity, including 02:04:07.159 --> 02:04:10.500 the understaffing of first responder and the 02:04:10.500 --> 02:04:13.659 overworking of first responder agencies, ultimately 02:04:13.659 --> 02:04:17.000 comes from the wrong people continuing to get 02:04:17.000 --> 02:04:20.239 at the top of the totem pole. How do we, as a 02:04:20.239 --> 02:04:24.810 principle, change the way That we choose people. 02:04:25.130 --> 02:04:28.069 So you actually get someone who is compassionate, 02:04:28.250 --> 02:04:31.850 who thinks about us rather than we to be at the 02:04:31.850 --> 02:04:33.550 heads of them. It could be, you know, we're talking 02:04:33.550 --> 02:04:37.130 the president or simply the chief of fire department 02:04:37.130 --> 02:04:40.649 or even the lieutenant at a station. How do we 02:04:40.649 --> 02:04:43.409 get the right kind of person that has that community 02:04:43.409 --> 02:04:47.609 mind, that has that passion and caring for their 02:04:47.609 --> 02:04:50.479 people? Because if that happens in a station, 02:04:50.560 --> 02:04:52.939 in a household, that permeates then through the 02:04:52.939 --> 02:04:56.800 entire nation ultimately. Yeah, that's another 02:04:56.800 --> 02:05:00.079 million -dollar question with a million -dollar 02:05:00.079 --> 02:05:05.220 answer, right? I mean, part of it has to be... 02:05:05.220 --> 02:05:10.180 I mean, the answer, the honest answer is we need 02:05:10.180 --> 02:05:13.439 to put people or... I know we shouldn't say put, 02:05:13.500 --> 02:05:16.399 maybe put's the wrong word, but like... we need 02:05:16.399 --> 02:05:20.920 to elect or we need to you know find or we need 02:05:20.920 --> 02:05:26.779 to recruit maybe um you know the people that 02:05:26.779 --> 02:05:30.939 don't want to be in those positions right i mean 02:05:30.939 --> 02:05:33.659 it's it's the classic you know i don't want to 02:05:33.659 --> 02:05:36.199 be in charge well that's why you should be in 02:05:36.199 --> 02:05:39.079 charge right because you don't want to be in 02:05:39.079 --> 02:05:41.520 charge because the people that want to be in 02:05:41.520 --> 02:05:44.779 charge nine times out of ten They may have the 02:05:44.779 --> 02:05:47.000 best intentions and they may talk a good game 02:05:47.000 --> 02:05:49.000 and they may talk, you know, they walk the walk 02:05:49.000 --> 02:05:51.680 and, you know, they say all the right things. 02:05:52.279 --> 02:05:55.039 But when push comes to shove, when things, you 02:05:55.039 --> 02:05:56.619 know, come down or whatever, they're going to 02:05:56.619 --> 02:06:00.979 look out for themselves. And, you know, going 02:06:00.979 --> 02:06:04.359 back to, you know, how do we put the right just 02:06:04.359 --> 02:06:07.220 let's just let's just say the fire department. 02:06:07.340 --> 02:06:09.199 Right. Let's just concentrate just on the fire 02:06:09.199 --> 02:06:11.460 department. How do we get the best leaders for 02:06:11.460 --> 02:06:15.199 the fire department? especially when they'll 02:06:15.199 --> 02:06:19.640 say, well, we only had two candidates. These 02:06:19.640 --> 02:06:21.319 are the two people that we got to choose from, 02:06:21.439 --> 02:06:24.640 right? If we only got two candidates, pick the 02:06:24.640 --> 02:06:29.020 lesser of two evils. Why does it have to be like 02:06:29.020 --> 02:06:32.699 that, right? Why does it have to be, well, those 02:06:32.699 --> 02:06:37.539 are the only two people that applied. Why isn't 02:06:37.539 --> 02:06:40.920 it merit -based? Why isn't it, well... You know, 02:06:40.960 --> 02:06:43.260 James has been on this department for this many 02:06:43.260 --> 02:06:45.180 years and he's done all these different positions 02:06:45.180 --> 02:06:47.840 and, you know, he's a fantastic instructor. He's 02:06:47.840 --> 02:06:50.659 a fantastic leader. You know, I think he'd make 02:06:50.659 --> 02:06:53.479 a fantastic, you know, overall chief because 02:06:53.479 --> 02:06:56.739 I think he's got the best interest at heart and 02:06:56.739 --> 02:07:00.039 he wants to do the best job for everybody. Why 02:07:00.039 --> 02:07:05.079 is that not the qualification? Right? Why is 02:07:05.079 --> 02:07:08.819 it? Why does it have to be? Well. Mark was the 02:07:08.819 --> 02:07:10.619 only person that applies. So we're going to hire 02:07:10.619 --> 02:07:14.319 Mark. And Mark sucks. And Mark doesn't know what 02:07:14.319 --> 02:07:17.760 the hell he's doing. And Mark's, you know, Mark 02:07:17.760 --> 02:07:19.779 only cares about himself. And Mark's only using 02:07:19.779 --> 02:07:22.039 this job as a stepping stone on a resume to make 02:07:22.039 --> 02:07:23.960 sure he can get, you know, the experience that 02:07:23.960 --> 02:07:25.960 he can get a different job at a different larger 02:07:25.960 --> 02:07:28.159 department or, you know, insert whatever there, 02:07:28.199 --> 02:07:32.659 right? That's the problem, right? We don't, we 02:07:32.659 --> 02:07:36.560 are not selecting people for positions of leadership. 02:07:37.549 --> 02:07:40.850 That should be selected for leadership. We are 02:07:40.850 --> 02:07:46.170 going back to the easy way out of saying, well, 02:07:46.289 --> 02:07:49.489 that's just the way our process is. We're talking 02:07:49.489 --> 02:07:51.689 about process, right? Going back to the contract. 02:07:51.949 --> 02:07:54.710 Well, the contract says that we need to publish 02:07:54.710 --> 02:07:58.409 this position for 30 days. And these are the 02:07:58.409 --> 02:08:00.630 requirements of that position. And if you don't 02:08:00.630 --> 02:08:03.210 meet the requirements, then you cannot apply 02:08:03.210 --> 02:08:06.090 it. You know, yada, yada, yada. I worked for 02:08:06.090 --> 02:08:08.409 a lieutenant. When I was first on the city of 02:08:08.409 --> 02:08:12.710 Wausau, who did not have an associate degree, 02:08:13.350 --> 02:08:18.470 was on the department for 25 plus years, had 02:08:18.470 --> 02:08:22.489 had every position, was now a lieutenant because 02:08:22.489 --> 02:08:26.649 of seniority, was a fantastic leader, a fantastic 02:08:26.649 --> 02:08:30.529 instructor, had everything for the right reasons. 02:08:30.590 --> 02:08:35.920 We would literally die for him, right? And he 02:08:35.920 --> 02:08:39.239 was overlooked all the time because he didn't 02:08:39.239 --> 02:08:42.159 have an associate degree or he didn't have this 02:08:42.159 --> 02:08:46.140 certification. Well, he didn't go to school because 02:08:46.140 --> 02:08:48.380 blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, he was in the Marines 02:08:48.380 --> 02:08:51.020 and had experience. You know what I mean? Like 02:08:51.020 --> 02:08:55.489 he's got other things going on for him. Right? 02:08:55.590 --> 02:08:58.250 My resume. Go to my website. Go to my LinkedIn. 02:08:58.250 --> 02:09:00.430 Holy shit, Mark. Whoa, he's got a lot of shit. 02:09:00.489 --> 02:09:02.569 Yeah, yeah, I do. Guess what? It doesn't matter 02:09:02.569 --> 02:09:04.369 a hill of freaking beans if I can't put any of 02:09:04.369 --> 02:09:08.210 it to work. Like I said, I have a master's degree. 02:09:08.329 --> 02:09:15.310 So freaking what? So what? Doesn't matter. If 02:09:15.310 --> 02:09:18.569 you can't apply what you know, if I can't help 02:09:18.569 --> 02:09:23.229 other people achieve things, which is the entire 02:09:23.229 --> 02:09:25.779 purpose of leadership. then it doesn't matter 02:09:25.779 --> 02:09:28.659 a hill of beans how many freaking degrees I have 02:09:28.659 --> 02:09:31.079 or what certifications I have or, you know, all 02:09:31.079 --> 02:09:34.840 the, you know, I have 10 different letters of 02:09:34.840 --> 02:09:37.180 recommendation from 10 of my best friends that 02:09:37.180 --> 02:09:38.779 happened. You know what I mean? Like so freaking 02:09:38.779 --> 02:09:42.800 what? None of that matters. And the other thing 02:09:42.800 --> 02:09:46.239 that I think that, you know, we need to really 02:09:46.239 --> 02:09:49.800 look at besides really doing a merit -based system 02:09:49.800 --> 02:09:52.840 and finding the people that don't want to do 02:09:52.840 --> 02:09:55.609 it, that's why you should do it. is when the 02:09:55.609 --> 02:10:00.250 entire group tells, hey, James is the man. I 02:10:00.250 --> 02:10:04.470 would follow James. Let's get, you know, put 02:10:04.470 --> 02:10:08.649 him in that position, right? You may not want 02:10:08.649 --> 02:10:10.810 to do it, James, but we're going to all be here. 02:10:10.850 --> 02:10:13.329 We're going to be here with you. I think that's 02:10:13.329 --> 02:10:16.090 the other thing. People, you know, we are so 02:10:16.090 --> 02:10:19.649 much in a cannibalistic, like, well, he stepped 02:10:19.649 --> 02:10:23.819 up, right? He's not one of them. and he's getting 02:10:23.819 --> 02:10:26.140 told from on high to do, you know, A, B, and 02:10:26.140 --> 02:10:28.779 C. And now we're going to give him the cold shoulder 02:10:28.779 --> 02:10:31.460 because he's not one of us anymore. And, you 02:10:31.460 --> 02:10:34.659 know, fuck him. And, you know, he's selling out 02:10:34.659 --> 02:10:36.920 and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now we're 02:10:36.920 --> 02:10:39.439 not, you know what I mean? We are horrible at 02:10:39.439 --> 02:10:43.140 that kind of stuff. Horrible at it. Just the 02:10:43.140 --> 02:10:45.479 gossip train, stirring the pot. We're horrible 02:10:45.479 --> 02:10:48.239 at doing those things. Cutting people off at 02:10:48.239 --> 02:10:50.920 the knees, not giving them a chance, you know? 02:10:51.520 --> 02:10:53.840 They stuck their neck out. Maybe that's the other 02:10:53.840 --> 02:10:56.960 thing too. Like people are afraid to take the 02:10:56.960 --> 02:10:59.939 big step up because they've seen how many guys 02:10:59.939 --> 02:11:03.399 get chopped out from underneath, right? I'm not 02:11:03.399 --> 02:11:05.680 going to put myself in that position. Screw that. 02:11:06.439 --> 02:11:10.020 I'm fine just where I'm at. And then you have 02:11:10.020 --> 02:11:14.020 a leader who's fantastic sitting on the sidelines 02:11:14.020 --> 02:11:17.239 who could really make a difference. And again, 02:11:17.359 --> 02:11:24.960 why? Because... We do it to ourselves. And, you 02:11:24.960 --> 02:11:27.699 know, that's sad and it's unfortunate. And it 02:11:27.699 --> 02:11:31.479 goes back to, you know, what I said before. We 02:11:31.479 --> 02:11:33.560 can only control what we can control and we can 02:11:33.560 --> 02:11:36.960 only help what we can really affect. And when 02:11:36.960 --> 02:11:40.180 we do those types of things and we don't change 02:11:40.180 --> 02:11:43.159 the system the way it is and we allow the other 02:11:43.159 --> 02:11:47.060 stuff to happen, nothing's ever going to make 02:11:47.060 --> 02:11:49.399 a difference. All the money in the world doesn't 02:11:49.399 --> 02:11:52.779 make a difference. You could have the best system. 02:11:52.819 --> 02:11:54.600 You could have the most perfect system in the 02:11:54.600 --> 02:11:56.420 world, James. And unless you have the leadership 02:11:56.420 --> 02:11:58.880 and the right people in charge of it, doing the 02:11:58.880 --> 02:12:02.760 right things for the right reasons, it's never 02:12:02.760 --> 02:12:04.699 going to matter. It's never going to matter. 02:12:06.079 --> 02:12:08.060 Well, I think that's the perfect place to round 02:12:08.060 --> 02:12:10.060 this off. That was such a beautiful kind of, 02:12:10.060 --> 02:12:12.220 I mean, it was, it was exactly what needs to 02:12:12.220 --> 02:12:14.119 be said. And I agree with you wholeheartedly. 02:12:14.659 --> 02:12:17.000 For people listening. If they want to find the 02:12:17.000 --> 02:12:18.899 books, if they want to reach out to you for the 02:12:18.899 --> 02:12:21.039 coaching and the other areas that you offer, 02:12:21.239 --> 02:12:23.720 where are the best places to find you? Website, 02:12:23.720 --> 02:12:27.680 social media? All my stuff. You can look me up 02:12:27.680 --> 02:12:32.319 on LinkedIn. Mark with a C, the appropriate way 02:12:32.319 --> 02:12:38.720 to spell Mark. Hill, obviously. My books are 02:12:38.720 --> 02:12:41.720 all on Amazon. You can look up either my name 02:12:41.720 --> 02:12:44.880 or you can look up 2Dark30 or look up Read Before 02:12:44.880 --> 02:12:48.439 Leading. Otherwise, my website, which is 2dark30 02:12:48.439 --> 02:12:53.600 .com, it's all written out, no numbers. Or you 02:12:53.600 --> 02:12:55.739 can get a hold of me on my website as well. My 02:12:55.739 --> 02:13:00.119 email address is markhill, all one word, at 2dark30 02:13:00.119 --> 02:13:03.659 .com. So I'm out there. You can look up 2dark30. 02:13:03.760 --> 02:13:05.939 That's where most of my stuff is found under. 02:13:06.659 --> 02:13:08.920 Beautiful. Well, Mark, I want to say thank you. 02:13:08.960 --> 02:13:11.319 I mean, just even for the conversation, just 02:13:11.319 --> 02:13:14.640 having the ability to explore areas and get two 02:13:14.640 --> 02:13:16.579 different perspectives, I think is so, so important. 02:13:16.819 --> 02:13:20.039 So kind of taking this path down, you know, mining 02:13:20.039 --> 02:13:22.420 and education and talking about some of the working 02:13:22.420 --> 02:13:24.359 environments and then, you know, the leadership 02:13:24.359 --> 02:13:27.039 has been a phenomenal conversation. So I want 02:13:27.039 --> 02:13:29.140 to thank you so, so much for being so generous 02:13:29.140 --> 02:13:31.420 with your time and coming on the Behind the Shield 02:13:31.420 --> 02:13:34.409 podcast today. Thank you for having me, James. 02:13:34.569 --> 02:13:36.609 I loved being here. And if you want to have me 02:13:36.609 --> 02:13:38.409 come back, I'll come back anytime you want.