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go to episode 323 of the behind the shield podcast

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with joel totoro and wes barnett Welcome to episode

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1100 of the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,

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my name is James Gearing, and this very special

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episode I brought on an incredible guest for

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you. Losing an uncle from a line -of -duty death,

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Kelly O'Dare was driven into the research world

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and ultimately found herself working within the

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fire service. Her husband Brandon is a firefighter

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and she is now one of our top researchers as

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well as the founder of Second Alarm Project.

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So we discuss a host of topics from Sean's line

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of duty death, her journey into the world of

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research, the dangers of myopic studies, UCF

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restores, the Struggle Well program, the 2472

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study that they're embarking on at the moment,

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and so much more. Now, before we get to this

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incredible conversation, as I say every week,

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please just take a moment, go to whichever app

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you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,

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leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single

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five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,

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therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library of exactly 1100 episodes.

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So all I ask in return is that you help share

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these incredible men and women's stories so I

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can get them to every single person on planet

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Earth who needs to hear them. So with that being

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said, I introduce to you Kelly O'Dare. Enjoy.

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Well, Kelly, I want to start by saying thank

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you so, so much for taking the time and coming

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on the Behind the Shield podcast today. Thank

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you for having me. Really excited to be here,

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James, and to share our information with your

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listeners. Absolutely. Now, I had the honor of

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meeting both of you when we kind of hosted a

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panel on 2472, which I'm sure we'll get into,

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for the Florida Fire Chiefs Association conference

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a few months ago. But you and I didn't really

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get to talk because you had lost your voice then.

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So I think this is the first time we're going

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to have a full conversation. Yes, that's right.

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I had forgotten about that, but I did. It was

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the craziest thing the day before. You know,

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you have a big presentation for your voice to

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just cut out is not the best timing. But fortunately,

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I have wonderful colleagues who were able to

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jump in and help me make it through that whole

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presentation. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well,

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I would love to start at the very beginning of

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your journey because I know there's a lot of

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kind of fire service interaction from previous

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generations all the way through. Tell me where

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you were born and tell me a little bit about

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your family dynamic, what your parents did, how

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many siblings. Sure. So I was born in Plantation,

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Florida, which. You know, your South Florida

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listeners will probably be familiar with where

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that is. But for those who aren't Florida natives

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or know where that is, it's Broward County, Florida.

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So not quite to Miami -Dade, but in Broward County.

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And we kind of lived a couple of different places,

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sort of moving our way north up into the Treasure

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Coast area and ended up calling home where I

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spent the most of my formative years. in Vero

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Beach in Indian River County. So when I say home,

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you know, where my home is, I consider that one

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of the places. Grew up and graduated high school

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there and ended up going to Tallahassee to go

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to Florida State University, go Knolls, and ended

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up... doing all of my degrees at FSU so I also

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really consider Tallahassee my home until very

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recently very very recently we just actually

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moved to the Orlando area relocated for my my

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new position very exciting with UCF Restores

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we also lived in Pensacola for a little while

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over on the West Coast. So I feel fortunate to

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have kind of experienced all of the different

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areas in Florida that Florida has to offer. I

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was raised by a single mom, and I had five uncles.

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So fortunately for me, I was absent a biological

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father for the most part of my formative years,

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but I had people stepping in and stepping up

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to that role. And one of them was my uncle, Sean

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O'Dare, and he was a Miami -Dade County firefighter

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who gave his life in the line of duty, rescuing

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a child who was trapped in a vehicle submerged

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in a canal. My connection with the fire service

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started very young. And then, as you mentioned,

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fast forward, you know, quite a few years later,

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I ended up marrying somebody who he had just

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started fire school when we met. So have been

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with him throughout the whole journey of fire

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school and being a new recruit all the way through

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to now being a company officer. And, you know,

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he decided to also go to paramedic school in

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his 40s, which I don't know what either of us,

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what he was thinking doing that or what I was

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thinking doing supporting that. But it's been

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a wild ride. And yes, the fire service has been

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very important to us and to our family and has

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provided a lot for us. So I'm super grateful

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to be able to give back to. the individuals who

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are also associated with these fire service organizations.

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Did your husband go through medic school as part

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of a program within the department or did he

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have to go outside of the department? He was

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fortunate enough to go through within a department.

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So, you know, that was, I think, a little bit

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of the heavy lift of it taken off. Yeah, I went

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outside of mine. Mine was screaming for medics,

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Orange County at the time. And yet they weren't

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giving any support for anyone that went to medic

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school. It was bizarre. So I worked full time

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at Orange County and then had to do my school

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and all my precepting when I was on off duty

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on other departments. And I was a single dad.

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So I can testify the immense weight that is paramedic

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school when you're already working. Absolutely.

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Well, going back to your uncle, Sean, I worked

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for Hialeah Fire Department. That was my very

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first one. Not too far. I lived in Pines, so

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just close to the plantation. And we did dive

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rescue because we had the canals everywhere.

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So I would imagine that the training that I got

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at Hialeah in 2004 was partly a ripple effect

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of what happened to your uncle. It was absolutely

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just it kind of gave me chills to hear you say

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that because my mom's whole family, she was born

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and raised in Hialeah back in the 50s and 60s.

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So she was kind of there. The Odairs were Hialeah.

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OGs from back in the day. And as I mentioned,

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we kind of like continued moving north, but that

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was really the starting place. And I think one

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of the reasons why my uncle decided to stay down

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there and work for Miami -Dade. But yes, so a

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lot of the dive rescue training and equipment

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and all of the different programs were influenced

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by his passing. And so that is definitely a point

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of pride or a point of really post -traumatic

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growth for our family and turning tragedy and

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something like that into purpose after something

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like that happens. Yeah, absolutely. It's funny.

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By the time I got there in 2004, there weren't

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very many Irish surnames that you heard in the

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patients that we ran on. They referred to either

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the Julios or the Johnnies as far as the firefighters.

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You're either a Hispanic guy, mainly Cuban, or

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you were one of the minority hires, aka the white

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guys. Right. Yeah, definitely. The demographic

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has shifted. When I tell the local people that

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my family is originally from Hialeah, they kind

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of look at me sideways like, you don't look like

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you fit. But we did. That was home. Yeah, that's

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beautiful. I actually just went and visited my

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old department just a few, like two, three weeks

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ago and stood in the training tower. I got murdered

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for three months and so much nicer standing out

00:10:35.690 --> 00:10:40.240
there when you're not the recruit anymore. All

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right. Well, then shifting back before we go

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into your journey, even to FSU, firstly, from

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a sports point of view, what were you playing

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as far as activities and sports? So I played

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a little, dabbled in a little bit of basketball

00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:59.620
growing up. But I honestly, I didn't really find

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my first love in sports until I was an adult.

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You know, I'm like an older adult guy approaching

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midlife when I. I started doing a lot of running.

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I started doing a lot, tons of running, half

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marathons and marathons, and really liked that

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challenge, but I was a pretty terrible runner.

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I really wasn't fast. I really wasn't very good

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at it, but I did it, and it was something that

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I could set some goals. have some personal achievements

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over. But a couple of my running buddies got

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into this new thing called CrossFit. And so I

00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:42.580
decided to try that out and fast forward, like

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10 years later, I was still doing it and loving

00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:47.620
it. And the Olympic weightlifting component was

00:11:47.620 --> 00:11:50.379
actually something that I did have a knack for

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as opposed to running, which, which it didn't.

00:11:53.639 --> 00:11:56.460
started doing a lot of competitions and really

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just embracing that lifestyle. So I would say

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I was, I used to always say I was an adult onset

00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:08.519
athlete. Do you still do CrossFit now? So I dabble

00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:11.860
here and there. You know, I had to kind of take

00:12:11.860 --> 00:12:14.600
it down a notch into my 40s. I couldn't be quite

00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:16.980
the fire breather that I feel like I wanted to

00:12:16.980 --> 00:12:19.639
be at one point in my, you know, early and mid

00:12:19.639 --> 00:12:24.340
30s. But I've discovered some other things that

00:12:24.340 --> 00:12:28.440
I try to do pretty regularly that I enjoy, maybe

00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:31.220
not quite as much as the CrossFit, but things

00:12:31.220 --> 00:12:34.539
like Orange Theory and other kind of group fitness

00:12:34.539 --> 00:12:40.399
that's challenging. I started, one of my Anaheim

00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:42.080
firefighter friends got us into it, I think it

00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:45.740
was 2006 -ish, so quite a long time ago, and

00:12:45.740 --> 00:12:47.480
had this really interesting journey where first

00:12:47.480 --> 00:12:49.879
he was showing us and then I went. moved back

00:12:49.879 --> 00:12:52.039
to florida and i'm in the ymca doing it on my

00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:53.840
own and everyone's looking at me like i've lost

00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:57.000
my fucking mind um because back then no one knew

00:12:57.000 --> 00:13:00.039
what it was and then it got it got famous you

00:13:00.039 --> 00:13:02.240
know you know the game started being on tv and

00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:03.659
then these same people that were laughing at

00:13:03.659 --> 00:13:06.320
me are now asking how do you do that so interesting

00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:09.600
shift again but then as you said like i got into

00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:12.379
um i mean literally it was like a year and a

00:13:12.379 --> 00:13:15.659
half ago they changed the programming in my gym

00:13:15.659 --> 00:13:18.450
and i was noticing that i'd kind of not even

00:13:18.450 --> 00:13:20.870
plateaued like i was starting to decline and

00:13:20.870 --> 00:13:22.370
i wasn't you know the whole point of a strength

00:13:22.370 --> 00:13:23.950
conditioning program is that you hope that you

00:13:23.950 --> 00:13:26.090
keep getting a little bit stronger or maintaining

00:13:26.090 --> 00:13:28.909
at least and so now we've got this thing called

00:13:28.909 --> 00:13:31.289
wolf brigade so it's a lot more focus on like

00:13:31.289 --> 00:13:35.009
single arm heavy kettlebell movements maces sandbags

00:13:35.009 --> 00:13:38.470
sleds um and taking away that as you said that

00:13:38.470 --> 00:13:40.909
fire breathing element there's still that cardiovascular

00:13:40.909 --> 00:13:44.009
part but it's not like murder yourself almost

00:13:44.009 --> 00:13:46.490
every single day because even the main site wasn't

00:13:46.490 --> 00:13:49.200
that You know, it was really of the four days,

00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:51.080
like one was actually supposed to be a kind of

00:13:51.080 --> 00:13:54.080
red line workout. And that has just been incredible.

00:13:54.220 --> 00:13:56.440
So still the exact same building, exact same

00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:58.899
members, but the programming has changed. And

00:13:58.899 --> 00:14:01.440
I find as a, you know, now in, you know, I don't

00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:02.600
even like to use the word middle age because

00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:04.879
my grandmother was 105 when she died. So I'm

00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:10.090
not quite middle yet. But lower middle age. Here's

00:14:10.090 --> 00:14:12.330
for your genes. That's fantastic. Yeah, exactly.

00:14:12.450 --> 00:14:14.929
So I owe it to her to have a good, healthy life.

00:14:15.450 --> 00:14:17.990
But yeah, so having just slowing it down a little

00:14:17.990 --> 00:14:19.870
bit, having those days where, yeah, it really

00:14:19.870 --> 00:14:21.710
sucks and you are pushing it, but having a lot

00:14:21.710 --> 00:14:25.230
more of those stricter, heavier movements, I

00:14:25.230 --> 00:14:27.990
find, you know, certainly once you get past your

00:14:27.990 --> 00:14:31.190
kind of 20s. That serves you a lot better as

00:14:31.190 --> 00:14:34.110
a first responder, as a martial artist, than

00:14:34.110 --> 00:14:36.269
continuing to beat yourself down and kind of

00:14:36.269 --> 00:14:38.629
ignoring some of the imbalances that I found

00:14:38.629 --> 00:14:44.330
CrossFit was creating. Yeah, absolutely. I just

00:14:44.330 --> 00:14:48.070
couldn't agree more. And really the opportunity

00:14:48.070 --> 00:14:51.860
to tap into the... mental health benefits that

00:14:51.860 --> 00:14:54.879
are associated with that type of physical training,

00:14:55.159 --> 00:14:57.860
I think, you know, when you're beating yourself

00:14:57.860 --> 00:15:00.740
down constantly and you're not feeling good,

00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:03.259
you know, it kind of takes away some of those

00:15:03.259 --> 00:15:05.720
benefits. So getting something that's a little

00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:08.059
more balanced and can provide a little more clarity,

00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:10.240
both mentally and physically, I think has been

00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:13.039
tremendously helpful, at least for me. Absolutely.

00:15:13.690 --> 00:15:16.370
Well, what about from the career aspiration side,

00:15:16.509 --> 00:15:18.730
again, kind of school age? What were you dreaming

00:15:18.730 --> 00:15:22.889
of becoming high school age? Yeah, so interestingly

00:15:22.889 --> 00:15:27.250
enough, I wanted to be a firefighter. Even into

00:15:27.250 --> 00:15:29.509
high school, I really thought that that's what

00:15:29.509 --> 00:15:32.230
I was going to do. And as I mentioned, I was

00:15:32.230 --> 00:15:35.490
raised by a single mom, and she didn't have a

00:15:35.490 --> 00:15:37.769
college education. She had a high school education

00:15:37.769 --> 00:15:42.070
and did secretarial work for most of her career.

00:15:42.909 --> 00:15:45.909
And she said, OK, you know, that's a that's a

00:15:45.909 --> 00:15:48.509
wonderful profession and I definitely support

00:15:48.509 --> 00:15:50.889
it. But here's the deal. You're going to go to

00:15:50.889 --> 00:15:53.330
college and you're going to finish college. And

00:15:53.330 --> 00:15:55.389
then if you still want to be a firefighter after

00:15:55.389 --> 00:15:57.690
you graduate college, then, you know, then you

00:15:57.690 --> 00:16:00.690
can you can have that career career trajectory.

00:16:00.950 --> 00:16:03.629
So I said, OK, you know, deal. We'll do that.

00:16:03.730 --> 00:16:08.490
So off to college I went and, you know, then.

00:16:09.769 --> 00:16:12.370
She couldn't keep me out of college after that.

00:16:12.409 --> 00:16:16.590
After my first four years, it just was kind of

00:16:16.590 --> 00:16:19.090
a natural fit for me. Although I'll say I, you

00:16:19.090 --> 00:16:20.950
know, I struggled my first couple of years in

00:16:20.950 --> 00:16:23.470
college getting acclimated to it. But I feel

00:16:23.470 --> 00:16:27.049
like once I found kind of my niche and what I

00:16:27.049 --> 00:16:30.289
loved and my groove, it was really where I wanted

00:16:30.289 --> 00:16:32.990
to be in an academic environment and a learning

00:16:32.990 --> 00:16:37.789
environment. And so decided to apply to graduate

00:16:37.789 --> 00:16:41.769
school and decided that I was going to do not

00:16:41.769 --> 00:16:44.309
one, but I ended up doing two master's degrees

00:16:44.309 --> 00:16:47.309
because, you know, what are you going to do with

00:16:47.309 --> 00:16:48.970
two master's degrees? Right. Again, I was just

00:16:48.970 --> 00:16:50.710
one of those people that was a career student.

00:16:50.769 --> 00:16:54.870
I loved learning for the sake of learning. And

00:16:54.870 --> 00:16:58.190
then from there, I actually had an advisor that

00:16:58.190 --> 00:17:01.029
I was working with on a project. I don't remember

00:17:01.029 --> 00:17:04.420
exactly what I was doing with her, but. We were

00:17:04.420 --> 00:17:07.960
talking about writing, the love of writing that

00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:13.380
I had. And she said, you know, this kind of love

00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:15.460
for writing and this kind of love of learning

00:17:15.460 --> 00:17:17.819
is what really makes people good at writing.

00:17:17.900 --> 00:17:20.279
Ph .D. programs. You know, you might want to

00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:23.680
consider that. And I hadn't really ever considered

00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:27.720
it before then until she planted that seed. And

00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:30.019
so I'm incredibly grateful that she said that

00:17:30.019 --> 00:17:32.480
that day because I remember that conversation

00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:34.740
clear as day. And that's when I actually started

00:17:34.740 --> 00:17:37.180
to think to myself, you know what, maybe I could

00:17:37.180 --> 00:17:40.500
do this. Maybe I could apply for a Ph .D. program

00:17:40.500 --> 00:17:44.329
and see where where it takes me. You mentioned

00:17:44.329 --> 00:17:46.089
it took you a couple of years to get acclimatized.

00:17:46.210 --> 00:17:49.849
What would you tell freshman Kelly or any other

00:17:49.849 --> 00:17:53.690
young person listening how to navigate that first

00:17:53.690 --> 00:17:56.009
couple of years of higher education to make sure

00:17:56.009 --> 00:17:58.529
that you are on a track that actually genuinely

00:17:58.529 --> 00:18:06.170
interests you? Probably spend less time in the...

00:18:07.510 --> 00:18:09.990
unofficial extracurricular activities of college

00:18:09.990 --> 00:18:12.970
and more time in the classroom and in your books

00:18:12.970 --> 00:18:15.470
and in your studies that that was probably advice

00:18:15.470 --> 00:18:18.069
I would have given myself, but probably wouldn't

00:18:18.069 --> 00:18:22.579
have taken at that point in my life. But yeah,

00:18:22.660 --> 00:18:25.759
I think, you know, just the opportunity to really

00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:29.180
immerse yourself into college life and into,

00:18:29.299 --> 00:18:31.960
you know, all of the different opportunities

00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:35.559
that being in a university or an academic environment

00:18:35.559 --> 00:18:39.119
can avail you. I think that I might have limited

00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:42.039
myself with some of those opportunities. So,

00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:45.160
you know, just being willing and open minded

00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:48.200
to seek out experiences that you might be unfamiliar

00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:51.839
with. And what area were you actually focusing

00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:56.579
on as far as academics? So I was really unsure.

00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:02.059
I really was unsure up until my senior year when

00:19:02.059 --> 00:19:05.700
I had to choose something. So I was undecided

00:19:05.700 --> 00:19:08.559
and I just did a lot of the general education

00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:13.720
requirements and thought that I might want to

00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:18.259
go into teaching. So kind of went down that path.

00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:20.940
And my bachelor's degree is actually from the

00:19:20.940 --> 00:19:24.819
College of Education, but it's a recreation and

00:19:24.819 --> 00:19:29.339
sports related degree. So it was just really

00:19:29.339 --> 00:19:33.220
undecided for a long time. And my final semester,

00:19:33.319 --> 00:19:36.509
you had to do an internship. ended up doing i

00:19:36.509 --> 00:19:38.930
was doing a work study assignment and ended up

00:19:38.930 --> 00:19:41.890
doing my internship at the same location it was

00:19:41.890 --> 00:19:44.710
a non -profit charitable organization called

00:19:44.710 --> 00:19:47.549
big brothers big sisters they do mentorship initiatives

00:19:47.549 --> 00:19:51.569
with higher risk youth in the community and just

00:19:51.569 --> 00:19:54.490
ended up loving that and again had a great mentor

00:19:54.490 --> 00:19:58.329
there and she had a master's degree in social

00:19:58.329 --> 00:20:00.789
work and a master's degree in public administration

00:20:00.789 --> 00:20:04.450
and um again really sparked that interest in

00:20:04.450 --> 00:20:06.210
me like let me learn a little bit more about

00:20:06.210 --> 00:20:07.849
this and see if this is something i might want

00:20:07.849 --> 00:20:11.710
to do one of my good friends did the big brother

00:20:11.710 --> 00:20:14.349
program and it was so rewarding for both of them

00:20:14.349 --> 00:20:16.329
he was a firefighter in california when i was

00:20:16.329 --> 00:20:18.450
at the time and then this young lad i don't think

00:20:18.450 --> 00:20:20.750
he came from like you know a catastrophic home

00:20:20.750 --> 00:20:23.349
but he certainly didn't have that male figure

00:20:23.349 --> 00:20:25.910
kind of like your uncles with you and uh yeah

00:20:25.910 --> 00:20:28.130
i remember just him talking about just simply

00:20:28.130 --> 00:20:30.089
just you know, spending time with this little

00:20:30.089 --> 00:20:32.170
boy. And he ended up having a child of his own.

00:20:32.190 --> 00:20:34.849
And I'm sure even as a parent, as a young, young

00:20:34.849 --> 00:20:37.170
man being part of that mentorship program helped

00:20:37.170 --> 00:20:39.230
him develop the parenting skills for his own

00:20:39.230 --> 00:20:43.650
son. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, the ironic

00:20:43.650 --> 00:20:47.750
thing is, is so there were a couple of different

00:20:47.750 --> 00:20:49.569
firefighters. I'm sure there were more than a

00:20:49.569 --> 00:20:52.009
couple, but just a couple that I knew who were

00:20:52.009 --> 00:20:55.349
big brothers and big sisters with that same organization

00:20:55.349 --> 00:20:58.569
in Tallahassee that I was an intern with who

00:20:58.569 --> 00:21:02.329
had just come in to being a big brother or a

00:21:02.329 --> 00:21:05.430
big sister that, you know, 20 years down the

00:21:05.430 --> 00:21:10.119
road now into this work. i have reconnected with

00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:13.700
that i had known from that mentorship program

00:21:13.700 --> 00:21:17.900
who were you know um retiring out of the fire

00:21:17.900 --> 00:21:20.180
service now and they were just coming into the

00:21:20.180 --> 00:21:22.779
fire service back in those days so that's a neat

00:21:22.779 --> 00:21:25.539
connection absolutely well same kind of human

00:21:25.539 --> 00:21:27.359
i think you know the people that step up to be

00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:29.700
first responders would probably be good mentors

00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:32.259
you know as long as the job and we'll get into

00:21:32.259 --> 00:21:34.460
this aspects of the job don't you know interfere

00:21:34.460 --> 00:21:37.250
along the way So what about from the research

00:21:37.250 --> 00:21:39.230
point of view? Where did you find yourself kind

00:21:39.230 --> 00:21:44.589
of narrowing your focus? Sure. You know, again,

00:21:44.710 --> 00:21:50.170
just looking at the impact of lifestyle choices

00:21:50.170 --> 00:21:53.890
on our health and wellness, both mental health

00:21:53.890 --> 00:21:57.470
and physical health. You know, when I was in

00:21:57.470 --> 00:22:00.880
the social work program, I... I ended up getting

00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:04.319
a clinical MSW. So when you go to get a master

00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:06.759
of social work degree, typically you can go on

00:22:06.759 --> 00:22:09.059
one of two different tracks. You can get a policy

00:22:09.059 --> 00:22:12.240
related degree or you can get a clinical related

00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:15.019
degree. And the clinical related degree is what

00:22:15.019 --> 00:22:17.680
sets you up to then go on and get a license and

00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:20.579
to be able to see clients and do those sorts

00:22:20.579 --> 00:22:22.839
of things. And I knew I was really interested

00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:26.220
in policy work as well, which is one of the reasons

00:22:26.220 --> 00:22:29.430
that I decided to. also do the MPA in addition,

00:22:29.589 --> 00:22:31.970
because I really wanted to do the clinical social

00:22:31.970 --> 00:22:35.109
work side, the mental health side. And it's kind

00:22:35.109 --> 00:22:37.289
of interesting because at that point, I didn't

00:22:37.289 --> 00:22:39.509
really think I wanted to do mental health work.

00:22:39.730 --> 00:22:42.049
I knew the value of it and the importance of

00:22:42.049 --> 00:22:44.049
it, but I just didn't think it was where I would

00:22:44.049 --> 00:22:46.309
end up in my career. So you just, it's one of

00:22:46.309 --> 00:22:47.769
those things where you never know where life

00:22:47.769 --> 00:22:52.019
is going to end up taking you. And when I got

00:22:52.019 --> 00:22:55.920
into my Ph .D., I really started looking at things

00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:58.559
from the public health perspective and spent

00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:02.099
a lot of time and a lot of years doing work in

00:23:02.099 --> 00:23:05.279
different aspects of public health. I wrote a

00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:08.880
public health related dissertation, which led

00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:13.519
me to taking my first faculty position was actually

00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:18.980
at UWF over in. West Florida and Pensacola, doing

00:23:18.980 --> 00:23:21.859
some more public health related work there. And

00:23:21.859 --> 00:23:26.480
then I took a job in a tobacco program. So tobacco

00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:29.680
and cancer prevention, looking more on the public

00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:33.920
health kind of side of things. And then ended

00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:36.559
up taking a faculty position at Florida A &M

00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:38.759
University, which is where I was most recently

00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:42.640
before I transitioned here to UCF. in their public

00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:45.759
health program and started doing this work with

00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:48.420
first responders and kind of led me back to that

00:23:48.420 --> 00:23:51.619
mental health range. So I would say if I were

00:23:51.619 --> 00:23:56.200
to pick like a broad bucket to put all of the

00:23:56.200 --> 00:23:58.400
different research that I've focused on in, it

00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:01.559
is from that public health lens or that public

00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:03.680
health perspective, just the different elements

00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:08.640
of it. I put a post up the other day and it was

00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:13.500
a picture from It was either the 80s or the 90s,

00:24:13.500 --> 00:24:15.599
and it was a bunch of people from the tobacco

00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:20.900
companies swearing in a court of law that their

00:24:20.900 --> 00:24:25.059
products were not addictive. And I was kind of

00:24:25.059 --> 00:24:26.920
curious, so I researched, and I think if I've

00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:31.119
got this right, it was 4 million people die every

00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:35.420
year from tobacco products around the world.

00:24:35.779 --> 00:24:39.950
So, you know, tobacco -related diseases. When

00:24:39.950 --> 00:24:41.549
you looked, obviously, you're looking now at

00:24:41.549 --> 00:24:44.029
the U .S. lens, though, what was the impact?

00:24:44.150 --> 00:24:46.250
Is it something that's kind of been downgraded?

00:24:46.250 --> 00:24:49.170
Obviously, luckily, a lot less people smoke now.

00:24:49.410 --> 00:24:52.950
But there are still companies that make money

00:24:52.950 --> 00:24:56.970
from products that we know, hands down, kill

00:24:56.970 --> 00:24:59.829
probably hundreds of thousands in this country

00:24:59.829 --> 00:25:02.849
alone. So talk to me. I'm obviously getting facts

00:25:02.849 --> 00:25:05.450
from outside. You're inside. What is the impact

00:25:05.450 --> 00:25:10.420
of tobacco on the health of America? 2025 yeah

00:25:10.420 --> 00:25:14.000
it's still tremendous it certainly is significantly

00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:17.720
reduced since those years that you kind of talked

00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:21.900
about in the days of old but um you know that

00:25:21.900 --> 00:25:24.779
under the tobacco settlement agreements in the

00:25:24.779 --> 00:25:27.880
90s the tobacco companies were actually held

00:25:27.880 --> 00:25:32.619
financially liable for that incidence and prevalence

00:25:32.619 --> 00:25:36.059
of burden that their product was inflicting upon

00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:40.539
the American public. And so they had to pay a

00:25:40.539 --> 00:25:44.740
lot of money in the tobacco settlements nationwide.

00:25:45.099 --> 00:25:48.599
And Florida in particular was a huge beneficiary

00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:51.960
of a lot of that tobacco funding, which has gone

00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:55.960
over the last 20, 25 years to produce a lot of

00:25:55.960 --> 00:25:58.940
prevention and cessation programs to help people

00:25:58.940 --> 00:26:03.259
who are smokers. stop using products because

00:26:03.259 --> 00:26:05.740
it's very hard to stop once you start it's it's

00:26:05.740 --> 00:26:09.019
purposefully addictive and um you know to prevent

00:26:09.019 --> 00:26:12.240
again the replacement smokers is is what they

00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:14.500
the tobacco companies would actually call them

00:26:14.500 --> 00:26:16.700
in in a lot of the court documents that were

00:26:16.700 --> 00:26:19.039
uncovered but these replacement smokers that

00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:23.299
they would have to find because their other smokers

00:26:23.299 --> 00:26:26.079
were dying so they would have to find a replacement

00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:29.640
for their market um for their for their customers

00:26:31.660 --> 00:26:34.359
So Florida has done an amazing job with their

00:26:34.359 --> 00:26:36.240
tobacco program in particular. It's one of the

00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:39.140
national kind of best practice models out there

00:26:39.140 --> 00:26:43.519
and how states can go about preventing and helping

00:26:43.519 --> 00:26:47.400
people quit using tobacco products. So the landscape

00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:50.000
looks a lot better. They're still very damaging

00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:52.079
and a lot of damaging being done. And there's

00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:55.259
a lot of subpopulations of smokers, different

00:26:55.259 --> 00:26:58.079
professions and things like that, different areas.

00:26:58.970 --> 00:27:02.309
rural areas still have higher tobacco use rates

00:27:02.309 --> 00:27:05.210
you know actually if you have a mental health

00:27:05.210 --> 00:27:08.150
issue or if you're in a lower socioeconomic status

00:27:08.150 --> 00:27:10.890
you're more likely to still use these products

00:27:10.890 --> 00:27:13.710
so there's a disparate burden of the disease

00:27:13.710 --> 00:27:19.089
in certain populations um but the the industry

00:27:19.089 --> 00:27:22.289
is is very savvy so they're coming up with new

00:27:22.289 --> 00:27:25.390
products now to target you know the the vapes

00:27:25.390 --> 00:27:31.309
and the the um like the um the oral products

00:27:31.309 --> 00:27:34.650
not necessarily like the chew but which is still

00:27:34.650 --> 00:27:37.170
a big problem but other little little the packets

00:27:37.170 --> 00:27:41.569
that you can use so there's um you know a lot

00:27:41.569 --> 00:27:43.390
of different products out there on the market

00:27:43.390 --> 00:27:46.569
now that can be just as damaging to your old

00:27:46.569 --> 00:27:49.829
your old -fashioned combustible cigarette well

00:27:49.829 --> 00:27:53.190
i saw they just announced a study where they

00:27:53.190 --> 00:27:56.299
prove that yeah you can get popcorn lung from

00:27:56.299 --> 00:27:58.240
vapes and it makes perfect this is the thing

00:27:58.240 --> 00:28:01.200
and my whole lens on everything is just common

00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:03.099
sense and when you understand that there are

00:28:03.099 --> 00:28:06.940
oils in these inhalation products lungs and oils

00:28:06.940 --> 00:28:09.279
don't go together we know even like the drugs

00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:11.480
that we used to put down the airway for cardiac

00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:13.900
arrests we stopped doing that because they were

00:28:13.900 --> 00:28:16.779
detrimental but for young people to be inhaling

00:28:16.779 --> 00:28:18.880
oils and you've seen like it's not like a cigarette

00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:21.920
where you light it it has you know whatever a

00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:24.200
two minute lifespan then you've got to put it

00:28:24.200 --> 00:28:26.920
away people walk around sucking on these things

00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:29.420
all day so i would imagine they're probably inhaling

00:28:29.420 --> 00:28:31.380
even more than the average cigarette in some

00:28:31.380 --> 00:28:35.859
areas yeah absolutely and and you know like you're

00:28:35.859 --> 00:28:39.240
saying too there's there's not a lot of research

00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:41.799
on some of the impacts so we just don't know

00:28:41.799 --> 00:28:44.799
and is it is it worth that risk of you know kind

00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:49.089
of being the the lab rat for a new product that's

00:28:49.089 --> 00:28:51.150
come out that we just don't know how it might

00:28:51.150 --> 00:28:53.950
impact you. We suspect it's not going to be good,

00:28:54.089 --> 00:28:57.190
but I don't know if I want to take that risk.

00:28:58.869 --> 00:29:01.970
You mentioned the addictive qualities. We hear

00:29:01.970 --> 00:29:04.069
this, but it would be interesting with the lens

00:29:04.069 --> 00:29:05.869
that you have diving deep into the research.

00:29:06.109 --> 00:29:08.890
Talk to me about the development of the things

00:29:08.890 --> 00:29:11.930
in the cigarette to make it even more addictive

00:29:11.930 --> 00:29:17.230
than just regular leaf tobacco. Yeah, so the

00:29:17.230 --> 00:29:19.829
leaf tobacco is in there and that has addictive

00:29:19.829 --> 00:29:22.630
properties, but there's just tons of additives

00:29:22.630 --> 00:29:25.410
that are added in there on top of that that are

00:29:25.410 --> 00:29:29.089
also addictive. And some of the science would

00:29:29.089 --> 00:29:31.250
show that some of those additives that are in

00:29:31.250 --> 00:29:34.910
there are even worse for you than the tobacco

00:29:34.910 --> 00:29:38.769
itself that's in there. The nicotine is bad for

00:29:38.769 --> 00:29:40.990
you, but some of these other chemical additives

00:29:40.990 --> 00:29:46.210
are even more highly addictive. um worse for

00:29:46.210 --> 00:29:51.309
you but you know it's physiologically it changes

00:29:51.309 --> 00:29:54.250
your physiology right it has changes in the brain

00:29:54.250 --> 00:29:57.329
it has changes in your in your body and your

00:29:57.329 --> 00:29:59.809
cardiovascular system and there's these properties

00:29:59.809 --> 00:30:02.289
that that happen in your brain and body when

00:30:02.289 --> 00:30:05.630
you ingest the products that contribute to the

00:30:05.630 --> 00:30:10.529
addictive qualities of it and you know i i don't

00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:14.660
oftentimes wonder if that's why they find people

00:30:14.660 --> 00:30:17.940
who are struggling with substance use. There's

00:30:17.940 --> 00:30:20.660
polysubstance use going on. So people who are

00:30:20.660 --> 00:30:23.000
using alcohol heavily are also more likely to

00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:26.740
be using tobacco products. Or people with depression

00:30:26.740 --> 00:30:29.420
are more likely to be using tobacco products

00:30:29.420 --> 00:30:33.220
because... It's a coping mechanism and it's an

00:30:33.220 --> 00:30:38.420
easy, almost immediate way to inflict changes

00:30:38.420 --> 00:30:42.500
in your brain chemistry and changes in your heart

00:30:42.500 --> 00:30:46.619
rate and other physiological things going on

00:30:46.619 --> 00:30:49.519
within your body to maybe get some relief from

00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:52.539
some of those anxiety symptoms or depression

00:30:52.539 --> 00:30:54.680
symptoms, whatever you might be encountering.

00:30:55.860 --> 00:30:57.519
Absolutely. Well, one more area and then we'll

00:30:57.519 --> 00:30:59.779
move away from tobacco. But this is something

00:30:59.779 --> 00:31:02.599
that I've been pondering since I heard a guest

00:31:02.599 --> 00:31:04.779
on Joe Rogan's show probably, God, whatever,

00:31:04.980 --> 00:31:07.339
a year ago now. But they were talking, I think,

00:31:07.339 --> 00:31:09.380
about Big Pharma. And this guy was a guru, Sid

00:31:09.380 --> 00:31:13.099
Guru, I think his name was. And Joe was rightly,

00:31:13.160 --> 00:31:15.299
like we all would do, talking about the CEOs

00:31:15.299 --> 00:31:18.460
of Purdue Pharma or someone saying, well, they're

00:31:18.460 --> 00:31:20.859
shitbags. And he goes, no, they're suffering

00:31:20.859 --> 00:31:24.089
too. And I'd never thought about that. And all

00:31:24.089 --> 00:31:27.849
of a sudden it reframes everything from presidents

00:31:27.849 --> 00:31:32.829
to CEOs of companies to fire chiefs and union

00:31:32.829 --> 00:31:35.490
leaders that refuse to act when their people

00:31:35.490 --> 00:31:39.390
are being buried. With the tobacco company and

00:31:39.390 --> 00:31:41.670
with you having this interesting mental health

00:31:41.670 --> 00:31:46.289
lens at the same time, what is your perspective

00:31:46.289 --> 00:31:50.480
of... the mental health of someone who creates

00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:53.799
a product that kills arguably millions of people

00:31:53.799 --> 00:31:56.940
around the globe and can still sleep at night

00:31:56.940 --> 00:31:59.720
because my opinion of that is we talk about mental

00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:01.859
health and the fire service for example they're

00:32:01.859 --> 00:32:04.000
talking about me the firefighter the engineer

00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:07.400
you know the captain but we forget that that

00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:10.500
also applies to the city and county council members

00:32:10.500 --> 00:32:14.019
and the fire chief and if you know to me if you

00:32:14.019 --> 00:32:18.099
are unfazed by people dying through your lack

00:32:18.099 --> 00:32:21.880
of actions or your product, I personally would

00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:23.960
say, okay, well, there's obviously a kind of

00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:27.640
borderline sociopathy element to your mental

00:32:27.640 --> 00:32:32.000
health as well. Yeah, so there certainly would

00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:37.200
appear to be an ability to disconnect from the...

00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:41.160
suffering of those individuals that you might

00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:45.480
have a role in on behalf of those. And whether

00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:49.599
it be for profit, I mean, that's a big part of

00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:51.880
it, right? I mean, it is extremely profitable.

00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:57.839
I'm not sure. So that's actually a really good

00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:00.500
question. And I'm not sure if that's been studied.

00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:06.500
like the personality characteristics of individuals

00:33:06.500 --> 00:33:12.119
who who engage in those types of behaviors i

00:33:12.119 --> 00:33:14.970
mean certainly you know Obviously, there's a

00:33:14.970 --> 00:33:18.410
lot of literature and research out there on sociopathical

00:33:18.410 --> 00:33:21.150
behavior and kind of the characteristics and

00:33:21.150 --> 00:33:23.309
the personality profile of those individuals.

00:33:23.430 --> 00:33:26.410
But, you know, kind of looking at other industries

00:33:26.410 --> 00:33:30.609
like big industries and the leadership of those

00:33:30.609 --> 00:33:32.450
industries and what types of characteristics

00:33:32.450 --> 00:33:36.579
they might. display that could be similar. I

00:33:36.579 --> 00:33:39.039
don't know that there's ever been any large studies

00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:41.220
done in that, but it certainly would be interesting.

00:33:41.460 --> 00:33:45.380
But just, you know, from my perspective and how

00:33:45.380 --> 00:33:47.819
I'm thinking about it, you know, there certainly

00:33:47.819 --> 00:33:51.599
must be an inherent ability to kind of step back

00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:55.660
and distance yourself from that. And I remember

00:33:55.660 --> 00:33:59.650
something that was really striking. I know we're

00:33:59.650 --> 00:34:01.450
trying to get away from tobacco, but just no,

00:34:01.450 --> 00:34:05.329
no, please, please. When I when I was reading

00:34:05.329 --> 00:34:10.090
through some of the the court files that they

00:34:10.090 --> 00:34:12.269
made public after the big tobacco settlements,

00:34:12.449 --> 00:34:15.909
you know, they would ask the tobacco industry.

00:34:18.230 --> 00:34:21.570
CEOs if they use the products themselves or if

00:34:21.570 --> 00:34:23.989
they would ever have a family member or a person

00:34:23.989 --> 00:34:25.969
they love use the products themselves. And many

00:34:25.969 --> 00:34:28.570
of them would say no. So I felt that that was

00:34:28.570 --> 00:34:30.829
very telling in and of itself that they would

00:34:30.829 --> 00:34:34.469
never use these products themselves. yeah exactly

00:34:34.469 --> 00:34:36.369
like the social dilemma even though a lot of

00:34:36.369 --> 00:34:38.449
the people on there were trying to bring light

00:34:38.449 --> 00:34:41.769
to to the the issue with social media the number

00:34:41.769 --> 00:34:44.190
of people that were creators that realized oh

00:34:44.190 --> 00:34:46.610
my god i can't even stop using it so they literally

00:34:46.610 --> 00:34:48.889
banned their children from using the very app

00:34:48.889 --> 00:34:52.349
they developed Right. Yeah, I had forgotten about

00:34:52.349 --> 00:34:56.269
that. That was a good watch. My son was relatively

00:34:56.269 --> 00:34:58.510
young when that came out and I was trying to

00:34:58.510 --> 00:35:00.389
get him to watch it. But I think he was just

00:35:00.389 --> 00:35:03.369
too young at the time to get it because he was

00:35:03.369 --> 00:35:06.889
just right there getting into wanting to be on

00:35:06.889 --> 00:35:10.530
social media. Absolutely. Well, let's kind of

00:35:10.530 --> 00:35:12.050
walk through the introduction of the fire service.

00:35:12.170 --> 00:35:14.570
So you mentioned you met Brandon when he was

00:35:14.570 --> 00:35:16.230
in the academy, which is a really interesting

00:35:16.230 --> 00:35:20.500
lens to begin that relationship. Walk me through

00:35:20.500 --> 00:35:22.380
before we even get to research and firefighter

00:35:22.380 --> 00:35:25.800
health, like the perspective of being a firefighter

00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:29.099
spouse and the children being firefighter children

00:35:29.099 --> 00:35:32.239
in in this world as he progressed through his

00:35:32.239 --> 00:35:40.440
career. So I I think that I was aware that it

00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:42.960
was challenging or that it was difficult. I remember,

00:35:43.059 --> 00:35:46.199
you know, especially in fire school, the long

00:35:46.199 --> 00:35:50.300
days, the. physical demand, the mental demand

00:35:50.300 --> 00:35:54.619
of the training, but I also saw how passionate

00:35:54.619 --> 00:36:00.269
he was about it and how much he loved it. He

00:36:00.269 --> 00:36:05.530
ended up going to an EMT program that was out

00:36:05.530 --> 00:36:08.210
of state. So he was gone for the duration of

00:36:08.210 --> 00:36:12.050
the time that he was in the EMT program. So there

00:36:12.050 --> 00:36:15.010
was that really long period of separation there.

00:36:15.449 --> 00:36:18.530
So I think some of those things kind of set us

00:36:18.530 --> 00:36:23.360
up for having a better sense of what. when he

00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:25.599
finally got out and was on the job, what it might

00:36:25.599 --> 00:36:29.760
be like with shift work and separation and time

00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:32.760
off and physical demands and mental demands.

00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:37.000
But I, you know, just to be completely honest

00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:42.610
with you. I don't think that I truly realized,

00:36:42.829 --> 00:36:45.849
and I won't say understand because I never think

00:36:45.849 --> 00:36:48.530
you can really truly understand somebody else's

00:36:48.530 --> 00:36:53.449
experience. You can recognize it and hear their

00:36:53.449 --> 00:36:56.630
story, but I don't know if you can ever truly

00:36:56.630 --> 00:36:59.190
walk a day in their shoes and understand something

00:36:59.190 --> 00:37:03.010
that they've gone through. But I didn't get it.

00:37:03.070 --> 00:37:07.219
I didn't even start to get it. Coming from a

00:37:07.219 --> 00:37:09.980
fire service family myself and being a fire service

00:37:09.980 --> 00:37:13.639
spouse, I just didn't get it until I started

00:37:13.639 --> 00:37:16.739
doing this work. And a perfect example of this

00:37:16.739 --> 00:37:22.579
is he was early on in his career. He was working

00:37:22.579 --> 00:37:24.980
for Escambia County over in Pensacola and I was

00:37:24.980 --> 00:37:31.119
at UWF and we had to do an event the day that

00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:35.239
he got off shift and he came home. And, you know,

00:37:35.239 --> 00:37:37.679
I was getting ready for this event and he was

00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:39.840
running late. So I was frustrated because we

00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:41.519
needed to get ready and we needed to go to this

00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:43.800
event. And he got home. And the reason that he

00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:48.639
was late was because he had just worked for child

00:37:48.639 --> 00:37:53.329
fatality fire that night. You know, he was telling

00:37:53.329 --> 00:37:55.670
me about it and I was like, OK, well, let you

00:37:55.670 --> 00:37:57.809
know, let's go. We got it. We got this other

00:37:57.809 --> 00:38:00.050
stuff to do. Let's get ready. We got to go. And

00:38:00.050 --> 00:38:04.530
I think back on that now and I just, you know,

00:38:04.530 --> 00:38:08.949
I see how much I missed in that moment. Looking

00:38:08.949 --> 00:38:12.510
back on it now, I could see his his affect was

00:38:12.510 --> 00:38:15.530
different. I could see his, you know, his body

00:38:15.530 --> 00:38:17.789
language was different. Just everything was different.

00:38:17.829 --> 00:38:20.150
And he's telling me about what he's just been

00:38:20.150 --> 00:38:23.239
through. And, you know, I didn't even take the

00:38:23.239 --> 00:38:25.860
time to stop and think, wow, it's just like,

00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:27.460
oh, it's part of the job. You know, they see

00:38:27.460 --> 00:38:29.699
this all the time. It's not going to impact him.

00:38:29.719 --> 00:38:31.920
He just he left work at work and we're going

00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:34.559
to go on with our lives and with our day. And

00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:37.420
so that was a really big learning experience

00:38:37.420 --> 00:38:41.460
for me. But I it took me a couple of years looking

00:38:41.460 --> 00:38:45.199
back to realize that I had done that. So I always

00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:49.360
try to share that story with other spouses who.

00:38:50.349 --> 00:38:54.789
who may not have a sense of how impactful some

00:38:54.789 --> 00:38:56.849
of these things can be and how they might need

00:38:56.849 --> 00:38:59.610
just a little bit of extra time to decompress.

00:38:59.650 --> 00:39:03.210
And while that doesn't mean they can totally

00:39:03.210 --> 00:39:07.670
shirk household responsibilities and use it as

00:39:07.670 --> 00:39:11.420
a reason to. you know get out of parenting um

00:39:11.420 --> 00:39:14.300
or get out of whatever but just that balance

00:39:14.300 --> 00:39:17.179
in the household of respecting each other's needs

00:39:17.179 --> 00:39:20.260
and and being able to verbalize each other's

00:39:20.260 --> 00:39:24.579
needs and and what it is that you're um going

00:39:24.579 --> 00:39:26.739
through in that moment and having the other person

00:39:26.739 --> 00:39:30.599
truly listen to you and hear you What about as

00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:33.820
the years go on, the chronic impact? Because

00:39:33.820 --> 00:39:36.500
when we first get hired, and I've reflected on

00:39:36.500 --> 00:39:39.000
this a lot recently, when I got hired by Hialeah,

00:39:39.139 --> 00:39:43.280
the demand was so high in 2004, they didn't even

00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:45.639
tell us what our salary was. So about three weeks

00:39:45.639 --> 00:39:48.039
into it, that's how desperate we were to get

00:39:48.039 --> 00:39:50.440
hired. And it was, again, competing against hundreds,

00:39:50.460 --> 00:39:52.059
if not thousands of people, depending on the

00:39:52.059 --> 00:39:55.000
department. And so you're not thinking about...

00:39:55.190 --> 00:39:57.010
The other stuff, you know, you're told, you know,

00:39:57.010 --> 00:39:58.929
one on two off and all these things. And it's

00:39:58.929 --> 00:40:00.969
great. And when someone tells you at the front

00:40:00.969 --> 00:40:02.369
door, it's great. And you're chomping at the

00:40:02.369 --> 00:40:04.690
bit to do this profession. You just you just

00:40:04.690 --> 00:40:07.110
take it. You accept it. This is what it is. But

00:40:07.110 --> 00:40:09.670
over time, a lot of people kind of start to have

00:40:09.670 --> 00:40:12.050
this aha moment, especially if it's the family

00:40:12.050 --> 00:40:14.670
of where they're like, wait a second, these things

00:40:14.670 --> 00:40:16.769
don't line up. You're supposed to have all this

00:40:16.769 --> 00:40:18.969
time. You're supposed to have all this, you know.

00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:22.440
recovery and yet you just seem exhausted so what

00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:24.739
what what did you you know with this this again

00:40:24.739 --> 00:40:29.159
this health lens that you have what was the the

00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:31.480
kind of observations that you made as he progressed

00:40:31.480 --> 00:40:35.900
through his career i think you know you kind

00:40:35.900 --> 00:40:38.980
of get out of that honeymoon period pretty early

00:40:38.980 --> 00:40:42.019
on um you know you're still and my husband he's

00:40:42.019 --> 00:40:44.480
he's still really fired up to do the job he loves

00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:47.079
the job he's one of these firefighters that goes

00:40:47.079 --> 00:40:50.280
to all the outside conferences and trainings

00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:56.019
and um you know seeks out the the big name instructors

00:40:56.019 --> 00:40:59.420
and and so he just loves the fire service and

00:40:59.420 --> 00:41:02.349
he and he loves what he does but i think you

00:41:02.349 --> 00:41:06.949
know, again, now into our mid to late 40s, you

00:41:06.949 --> 00:41:09.530
know, also is seeing the impacts that it can

00:41:09.530 --> 00:41:12.730
have on you physically. It's a tough job to do

00:41:12.730 --> 00:41:16.429
all these years and mentally. But I think that,

00:41:16.429 --> 00:41:19.789
you know, early on, you definitely kind of notice

00:41:19.789 --> 00:41:25.409
that there's some challenges and some disadvantages.

00:41:25.590 --> 00:41:30.070
And it doesn't necessarily mean that you need

00:41:30.070 --> 00:41:34.920
to make a change of career change. It's just

00:41:34.920 --> 00:41:37.300
like, how are you going to step up to that? How

00:41:37.300 --> 00:41:39.659
are you going to learn to adapt to that? How

00:41:39.659 --> 00:41:42.159
are you going to learn to approach that situation

00:41:42.159 --> 00:41:46.860
and handle that situation and respond to it too?

00:41:47.500 --> 00:41:50.079
to really get the outcomes that you're desiring.

00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:53.659
And so, you know, instead of kind of shying away

00:41:53.659 --> 00:41:56.780
from those challenges, which is sometimes the

00:41:56.780 --> 00:41:59.820
easier thing to do, and sometimes you're just

00:41:59.820 --> 00:42:01.639
exhausted and you're like, you know what, I'm

00:42:01.639 --> 00:42:04.219
not, I don't want any challenges today. I'm not

00:42:04.219 --> 00:42:08.340
up for learning a new strategy to, you know,

00:42:08.340 --> 00:42:10.380
address my stress today. I just would like for

00:42:10.380 --> 00:42:15.179
things to be easy. But I, you know, again, I

00:42:15.179 --> 00:42:18.260
have an 18 year old son and that's a lot of what

00:42:18.260 --> 00:42:20.599
we've been talking about with him lately is,

00:42:20.659 --> 00:42:23.619
you know, life isn't so much about being able

00:42:23.619 --> 00:42:26.659
to avoid all the tough or challenging moments.

00:42:26.699 --> 00:42:31.440
The real power comes from knowing that, okay,

00:42:31.460 --> 00:42:34.059
I might not be able to avoid this happening in

00:42:34.059 --> 00:42:37.139
my life, but I can make choices about how I'm

00:42:37.139 --> 00:42:40.099
going to be able to react to it. And I can learn

00:42:40.099 --> 00:42:44.050
how to manage. my emotions and manage my stress

00:42:44.050 --> 00:42:48.429
and use skills and techniques to be able to respond

00:42:48.429 --> 00:42:52.030
to how I react to these things as opposed to

00:42:52.030 --> 00:42:55.090
just, you know, trying to avoid them. Yeah, I

00:42:55.090 --> 00:42:56.730
think as well, I mean, adding that same lens

00:42:56.730 --> 00:42:59.090
is also something that I think the younger generation

00:42:59.090 --> 00:43:00.929
is starting to do really well, which is also

00:43:00.929 --> 00:43:02.429
a question, well, why are we doing it this way?

00:43:02.940 --> 00:43:05.019
And we'll obviously get into work weeks and stuff.

00:43:05.059 --> 00:43:07.599
But that's again, we just blindly went in. And

00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:10.000
I'll ask you about a kind of research based question.

00:43:10.019 --> 00:43:12.659
I'll put you in a minute. Putting that aside

00:43:12.659 --> 00:43:16.079
for a moment, though, at what point did the fire

00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:18.840
service and your research background start to

00:43:18.840 --> 00:43:24.239
intersect? So that was probably formally, I would

00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:29.849
say about. Six, seven years ago, one of the chiefs

00:43:29.849 --> 00:43:32.610
came up to us and said, hey, do you guys know

00:43:32.610 --> 00:43:36.670
anything about this whole PTSD thing? And we

00:43:36.670 --> 00:43:39.230
said, well, we know a lot about PTSD. The fact

00:43:39.230 --> 00:43:41.510
that he just phrased it that way speaks volumes.

00:43:42.170 --> 00:43:46.030
I mean, that was really kind of exactly how he

00:43:46.030 --> 00:43:49.449
said it. Like, what is this thing? And do we

00:43:49.449 --> 00:43:51.829
need to be worried about it? And at the time,

00:43:51.849 --> 00:43:55.699
at least in the work that I had done. In my background,

00:43:55.980 --> 00:43:59.619
we knew quite a bit about PTSD, but not really

00:43:59.619 --> 00:44:02.420
so much about PTSD in the fire service. And this

00:44:02.420 --> 00:44:04.500
is really only like six or seven years ago, so

00:44:04.500 --> 00:44:08.179
not even that long ago. I still kind of feel

00:44:08.179 --> 00:44:11.400
like we were just starting to shed some light

00:44:11.400 --> 00:44:13.519
on this. And there's been a lot of work done,

00:44:13.599 --> 00:44:15.300
you know, in the last, I would say, 10 years,

00:44:15.380 --> 00:44:17.659
in the last five or six years in particular.

00:44:18.849 --> 00:44:21.670
But being the good, you know, academicians that

00:44:21.670 --> 00:44:23.670
we were, we were like, well, we don't know a

00:44:23.670 --> 00:44:25.010
lot. So what are we going to do? Well, we're

00:44:25.010 --> 00:44:26.590
going to do some research. We're going to research

00:44:26.590 --> 00:44:30.610
this. We started doing research and it was nice

00:44:30.610 --> 00:44:34.170
because we had fairly easy access to the population,

00:44:34.369 --> 00:44:38.050
which a lot of researchers actually struggle

00:44:38.050 --> 00:44:44.710
with, building rapport. um building trust with

00:44:44.710 --> 00:44:47.110
first responder populations to be able to get

00:44:47.110 --> 00:44:51.050
access to do research because first responders

00:44:51.050 --> 00:44:54.530
aren't lining up to participate in your survey

00:44:54.530 --> 00:44:58.829
all the time so to be able to to get access to

00:44:58.829 --> 00:45:01.610
the population was huge and and to use the contacts

00:45:01.610 --> 00:45:04.519
and the connections to do that was huge but What

00:45:04.519 --> 00:45:08.360
we started learning was really troubling. We

00:45:08.360 --> 00:45:11.519
were looking at things like substance use, depression,

00:45:11.800 --> 00:45:15.980
anxiety, suicidal thoughts. And we were just

00:45:15.980 --> 00:45:18.800
finding that the prevalence of them was so much

00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:22.260
higher among, and we started with the fire service,

00:45:22.360 --> 00:45:24.380
but then it started including law enforcement,

00:45:24.519 --> 00:45:27.440
dispatch, EMS. But the prevalence of these things

00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:32.380
was really just very concerning. And even more

00:45:32.380 --> 00:45:35.320
concerning was that there weren't resources out

00:45:35.320 --> 00:45:38.260
there. There wasn't like, okay, this person is,

00:45:38.360 --> 00:45:41.019
this firefighter is having suicidal thoughts.

00:45:41.219 --> 00:45:43.679
Well, what do we do with him or her? Well, we

00:45:43.679 --> 00:45:46.739
don't know. Isn't there like a mental hospital

00:45:46.739 --> 00:45:48.820
or something for that? I mean, there weren't

00:45:48.820 --> 00:45:50.699
a lot of resources and options, particularly

00:45:50.699 --> 00:45:54.599
in the area of Florida that we were in at the

00:45:54.599 --> 00:45:59.159
time. Lots of rurality and just provider shortages,

00:45:59.300 --> 00:46:04.139
things like that. So I, you know, got really

00:46:04.139 --> 00:46:08.900
tired and frustrated of rolling into rooms full

00:46:08.900 --> 00:46:12.519
of white shirts and saying, hey, you know, 30

00:46:12.519 --> 00:46:18.159
% of your firefighters are indicating that they

00:46:18.159 --> 00:46:21.860
would have provisional PTSD on the screen or,

00:46:21.980 --> 00:46:26.079
you know, 40 % are experiencing symptoms of depression.

00:46:27.610 --> 00:46:29.989
You know, and then I wouldn't have anything to

00:46:29.989 --> 00:46:32.150
follow that up and say, but hey, here's what

00:46:32.150 --> 00:46:34.590
we can do to help the situation. So I was like,

00:46:34.630 --> 00:46:36.369
all right, next time I'm going into one of those

00:46:36.369 --> 00:46:37.730
meetings, I'm going to have, I'm going to be

00:46:37.730 --> 00:46:39.690
ready to go. We're going to have some programs

00:46:39.690 --> 00:46:43.849
and services. And so I sought out some grant

00:46:43.849 --> 00:46:47.090
funding and was incredibly grateful to get our

00:46:47.090 --> 00:46:50.710
first federal SAMHSA grant to start doing some

00:46:50.710 --> 00:46:52.730
of this work. And that was where Second Alarm

00:46:52.730 --> 00:46:59.010
Project was born. I wrote that grant in the midst

00:46:59.010 --> 00:47:03.349
of having the flu, you know, I had the flu and

00:47:03.349 --> 00:47:05.869
I was like, this grant's just too important to

00:47:05.869 --> 00:47:08.130
not not write it and get it at this point. So

00:47:08.130 --> 00:47:11.309
I wrote that grant with the flu and Brandon,

00:47:11.349 --> 00:47:13.909
my husband, and actually one of our. really good

00:47:13.909 --> 00:47:16.630
friends who's a deputy he's a law enforcement

00:47:16.630 --> 00:47:20.630
officer came up with the name for it um we were

00:47:20.630 --> 00:47:22.590
trying to come up with a name and then we were

00:47:22.590 --> 00:47:24.750
having in a group text like hey what would be

00:47:24.750 --> 00:47:27.429
a good name for this this program this organization

00:47:27.429 --> 00:47:31.050
and our deputy friend he said what's that thing

00:47:31.050 --> 00:47:33.349
you guys call it when you don't have enough resources

00:47:33.349 --> 00:47:35.670
at a fire and you have to call more people in

00:47:35.670 --> 00:47:38.570
and brandon replied you know you have to call

00:47:38.570 --> 00:47:40.690
in a second alarm and i was like that's it that's

00:47:40.690 --> 00:47:45.480
the name beautiful What was the landscape of

00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:47.760
research? I mean, we'll get into the resources

00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:50.599
and culturally competent clinicians in a moment.

00:47:50.679 --> 00:47:55.699
But when it comes to the entire mental health

00:47:55.699 --> 00:47:59.039
conversation, but especially identifying each

00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:01.739
of these pillars that is breaking down mental

00:48:01.739 --> 00:48:06.800
health in our profession. So I think, you know,

00:48:06.800 --> 00:48:10.260
mental health overall. doesn't have parity with

00:48:10.260 --> 00:48:13.519
regard to physical health in the research world.

00:48:13.800 --> 00:48:16.739
There is a lot of research that's done, but if

00:48:16.739 --> 00:48:19.300
you look at, you know, mental health conditions,

00:48:19.420 --> 00:48:22.780
particularly things that I think really impact

00:48:22.780 --> 00:48:26.159
the fire service, like, you know, substance use

00:48:26.159 --> 00:48:31.230
and depression. They just don't have the type

00:48:31.230 --> 00:48:34.889
of dollars that have been allocated to physical

00:48:34.889 --> 00:48:38.590
health. And that's just mental health in general.

00:48:38.690 --> 00:48:41.130
But then when you look at the research that's

00:48:41.130 --> 00:48:42.710
being done with the first responder population,

00:48:42.949 --> 00:48:44.989
it's even more challenging because there isn't

00:48:44.989 --> 00:48:47.070
a lot of funding for one thing. As I mentioned,

00:48:47.210 --> 00:48:49.610
they're a very hard population to be able to

00:48:49.610 --> 00:48:54.849
get to participate in research. You know, people

00:48:54.849 --> 00:48:58.860
just overall. don't like talking about mental

00:48:58.860 --> 00:49:01.980
health. That's why I'm just excited to continue

00:49:01.980 --> 00:49:05.880
normalizing these conversations and help spread

00:49:05.880 --> 00:49:09.179
the message that your mental health and your

00:49:09.179 --> 00:49:11.139
physical health really should be looked at as

00:49:11.139 --> 00:49:13.300
one, that whole brain -body connection thing

00:49:13.300 --> 00:49:15.960
that we could probably talk about forever. But

00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:19.530
it is just as important if not. more important

00:49:19.530 --> 00:49:22.510
than keeping your body physically fit. You've

00:49:22.510 --> 00:49:24.690
got to keep your brain in check and in balance

00:49:24.690 --> 00:49:27.090
to be able to do your work and to do your job.

00:49:28.849 --> 00:49:32.670
So there's just not a lot of great research out

00:49:32.670 --> 00:49:36.429
there. And we hope to continue to contribute

00:49:36.429 --> 00:49:41.650
to that. We've got a few studies going on, different

00:49:41.650 --> 00:49:43.809
pockets of things here and there that we're looking

00:49:43.809 --> 00:49:47.840
at overall. Ultimately, I would love to see some

00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:54.840
type of epidemiological longer term data set

00:49:54.840 --> 00:49:58.780
of data collected for mental health conditions

00:49:58.780 --> 00:50:01.340
in the fire service so we can kind of track it

00:50:01.340 --> 00:50:04.719
over time and then really look at some of these

00:50:04.719 --> 00:50:07.320
initiatives and say, hey, this is working or,

00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:08.800
you know, we're spending a lot of money on this,

00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:11.519
but we're not really seeing a good ROI, those

00:50:11.519 --> 00:50:14.690
types of things. what about the the shift work

00:50:14.690 --> 00:50:16.949
side we're going to get in obviously to the study

00:50:16.949 --> 00:50:19.289
that you're part of now but as you are diving

00:50:19.289 --> 00:50:22.489
in because when when i hear the mental health

00:50:22.489 --> 00:50:25.230
conversation it's nearly always oh it's what

00:50:25.230 --> 00:50:29.090
these people see like yeah that's one tiny sliver

00:50:29.090 --> 00:50:30.789
of the pie chart but when are we going to talk

00:50:30.789 --> 00:50:32.789
about the rest from unaddressed childhood trauma

00:50:32.789 --> 00:50:34.650
to sleep deprivation and everything in between

00:50:34.650 --> 00:50:38.710
but even sarah jenki admitted that when we did

00:50:38.710 --> 00:50:41.030
our first interview which is about five years

00:50:41.030 --> 00:50:44.380
ago now um she almost kind of go forward when

00:50:44.380 --> 00:50:46.480
i mentioned sleep deprivation and she said it

00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:47.940
in the next interview i got to be completely

00:50:47.940 --> 00:50:50.179
honest when i started looking into it i was like

00:50:50.179 --> 00:50:53.800
oh my god this is now this is what's really surprising

00:50:53.800 --> 00:50:57.300
to me is you know we talk about culturally competent

00:50:57.300 --> 00:50:59.900
clinicians well i had an aha moment today like

00:50:59.900 --> 00:51:02.179
well we also need culturally competent researchers

00:51:02.179 --> 00:51:05.340
because if your only research is going to be

00:51:05.340 --> 00:51:08.079
well let me look at a different 56 hour work

00:51:08.079 --> 00:51:10.719
week That's not exactly cutting edge science.

00:51:10.980 --> 00:51:14.139
That's, you know, fixing nothing really. So,

00:51:14.139 --> 00:51:17.739
you know, what was the discussion when you first

00:51:17.739 --> 00:51:21.340
dove in? And then what is the metamorphosis now

00:51:21.340 --> 00:51:24.599
of putting this extremely important element into

00:51:24.599 --> 00:51:28.159
this mental health equation? Yeah, absolutely.

00:51:29.019 --> 00:51:32.480
And Sarah Jenke, she's kind of one of my role

00:51:32.480 --> 00:51:35.400
models and mentors. And when I first started

00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:38.679
doing this work, I had two goals when I first

00:51:38.679 --> 00:51:40.579
started doing this work. The first one is I wanted

00:51:40.579 --> 00:51:43.820
to know absolutely everything I could about what

00:51:43.820 --> 00:51:46.059
does the science say about this work with first

00:51:46.059 --> 00:51:48.760
responders, the good science. So I dove in, and

00:51:48.760 --> 00:51:51.099
of course, that's where I found Dr. Jenke's work

00:51:51.099 --> 00:51:55.289
and reached out to her really early on. you know,

00:51:55.289 --> 00:51:58.090
send an email. Hi, Dr. Janke. You know, I want

00:51:58.090 --> 00:52:00.150
to do this research and I would love to connect

00:52:00.150 --> 00:52:03.530
with you to learn more and thought I had like

00:52:03.530 --> 00:52:06.829
a probably like maybe a 5 % chance of ever hearing

00:52:06.829 --> 00:52:09.190
back from her because a lot of times I had done

00:52:09.190 --> 00:52:10.969
this over the course of my career. You reach

00:52:10.969 --> 00:52:13.719
out to these researchers. who are doing amazing

00:52:13.719 --> 00:52:15.739
things and a lot of them don't get back to you.

00:52:15.780 --> 00:52:17.219
Well, she actually got back to me right away,

00:52:17.360 --> 00:52:21.719
which was amazing. And so now to consider her

00:52:21.719 --> 00:52:27.159
a colleague of mine is a huge honor for me to

00:52:27.159 --> 00:52:31.239
be able to do that. She's incredible. And now

00:52:31.239 --> 00:52:33.079
that I'm talking about her, I've completely like

00:52:33.079 --> 00:52:35.000
totally forgot your question. Oh, the landscape

00:52:35.000 --> 00:52:38.349
of the research. And so I also wanted to know

00:52:38.349 --> 00:52:40.369
who was already doing this work and who was doing

00:52:40.369 --> 00:52:42.610
it well. And that kind of led me to a lot of

00:52:42.610 --> 00:52:44.969
the other partnerships that we've got going on

00:52:44.969 --> 00:52:49.289
right now. But when I started this, it was very

00:52:49.289 --> 00:52:51.750
much like it's the trauma, it's the trauma, it's

00:52:51.750 --> 00:52:54.730
the trauma. And I think that's an important part

00:52:54.730 --> 00:53:01.769
of it, definitely. I think that that is so intertangled

00:53:01.769 --> 00:53:03.590
with everything else that you've been talking

00:53:03.590 --> 00:53:06.090
about that we're trying to kind of pull out and

00:53:06.090 --> 00:53:09.349
tease apart. And that's what good research does.

00:53:09.570 --> 00:53:13.010
It says, okay, well, how much weight can we give

00:53:13.010 --> 00:53:15.329
to each of these elements that are going on here?

00:53:15.449 --> 00:53:17.829
And where can we get the most impact? If we start

00:53:17.829 --> 00:53:20.849
to kind of change this one variable, do we see

00:53:20.849 --> 00:53:24.090
bigger changes in the other variables? And if

00:53:24.090 --> 00:53:26.269
we can find that one thing that we can really

00:53:26.269 --> 00:53:28.460
work with and change, for the most amount of

00:53:28.460 --> 00:53:31.739
people, then, you know, let's put our efforts

00:53:31.739 --> 00:53:35.079
there. Let's put our efforts into that. And so

00:53:35.079 --> 00:53:38.440
I think it's pretty cool. Some of the initiatives

00:53:38.440 --> 00:53:41.519
that we're working on kind of moving from, you

00:53:41.519 --> 00:53:43.800
know, let's wait until this trauma happens and

00:53:43.800 --> 00:53:46.300
then find out which therapeutic approaches can

00:53:46.300 --> 00:53:49.179
help to repair the damage inflicted by the trauma,

00:53:49.320 --> 00:53:51.239
which again, that's still really important. We've

00:53:51.239 --> 00:53:53.320
got to be doing that because like you mentioned,

00:53:53.480 --> 00:53:57.199
all of this. the stuff that all of us bring in

00:53:57.199 --> 00:53:59.340
from childhood is still going to be there anyway

00:53:59.340 --> 00:54:02.599
and potentially need to be addressed as well.

00:54:04.539 --> 00:54:07.800
But just looking at some of the other elements

00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:13.480
that we can tap into to better prepare the first

00:54:13.480 --> 00:54:16.739
responders' bodies and brains to be able to manage

00:54:16.739 --> 00:54:19.579
all of this is where I'm really excited to see

00:54:19.579 --> 00:54:22.960
the research going. I had a gentleman on the

00:54:22.960 --> 00:54:24.400
show. He's actually coming back on, Professor

00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:27.440
Russell Foster. And it's funny because no one

00:54:27.440 --> 00:54:29.960
recognizes his name, even some of the sleep researchers.

00:54:30.239 --> 00:54:33.719
But he is the man and his team who discovered

00:54:33.719 --> 00:54:37.000
the chronoreceptor, so the photoreceptor in the

00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:39.599
eye. So before that, the ophthalmology world

00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:42.099
would laugh at him and say, there's only rods

00:54:42.099 --> 00:54:44.539
and cones in the retina. That's it. And he was

00:54:44.539 --> 00:54:47.170
able to prove it. And that, to me, is cutting

00:54:47.170 --> 00:54:50.050
-edge science. And I don't understand why the

00:54:50.050 --> 00:54:53.489
research world, especially, for example, the

00:54:53.489 --> 00:54:56.030
Harvard, for example, is in the Boston area.

00:54:56.230 --> 00:54:59.050
They work a 42 -hour workweek. A lot of the Northeast

00:54:59.050 --> 00:55:02.550
does. Washington, D .C., 42 -hour workweek. I

00:55:02.550 --> 00:55:04.849
don't understand why there's still this myopic

00:55:04.849 --> 00:55:07.250
thing of like, okay, well, we'll study the 4896

00:55:07.250 --> 00:55:12.050
or the 1323. That's all the studies that have

00:55:12.050 --> 00:55:13.449
been out here so far. And obviously, we're going

00:55:13.449 --> 00:55:17.929
to talk about the 2472. But wouldn't it be amazing

00:55:17.929 --> 00:55:20.469
to go, okay, we're going to study baseline for

00:55:20.469 --> 00:55:23.090
recruits in the academy for both of these departments.

00:55:23.309 --> 00:55:26.610
We've got a 24 -72 one and we've got a 24 -48

00:55:26.610 --> 00:55:29.150
one. And then we're going to study the 10 -year

00:55:29.150 --> 00:55:31.429
guys and the 20 -year guys just to get an overview.

00:55:31.889 --> 00:55:34.030
And of course, we know exactly what you're going

00:55:34.030 --> 00:55:36.210
to find. The people with more rest and recovery

00:55:36.210 --> 00:55:39.190
are ultimately going to be healthier. But I don't

00:55:39.190 --> 00:55:40.769
understand. I'd love you to kind of educate me

00:55:40.769 --> 00:55:44.489
why there's a massive deviation. in the research

00:55:44.489 --> 00:55:46.789
world for studying the, what I call the herd

00:55:46.789 --> 00:55:48.929
of elephants in the room, which is why the fuck

00:55:48.929 --> 00:55:51.670
our first responders work in 56 hours a week

00:55:51.670 --> 00:55:54.809
in the first place. Yeah, absolutely. I think

00:55:54.809 --> 00:55:57.369
honestly that you hit the nail on the head, you

00:55:57.369 --> 00:55:59.969
know, it's that occupational competency. Like

00:55:59.969 --> 00:56:02.269
you just don't know what you don't know. And

00:56:02.269 --> 00:56:05.090
if you're a researcher going in and you want

00:56:05.090 --> 00:56:07.570
to study this, this phenomenon, and you don't

00:56:07.570 --> 00:56:10.070
know some of the nuances that are going on that

00:56:10.070 --> 00:56:12.940
you might want to include, exclude. whatever

00:56:12.940 --> 00:56:16.380
from your study, you miss something. You can

00:56:16.380 --> 00:56:21.780
miss a lot by not having that real intimate knowledge

00:56:21.780 --> 00:56:24.480
of the population that you're working with, which

00:56:24.480 --> 00:56:27.139
is why I think it's so important for members

00:56:27.139 --> 00:56:32.780
of the fire service to be involved in the front

00:56:32.780 --> 00:56:35.900
end of this work to say, hey, we need to be considering

00:56:35.900 --> 00:56:37.900
these things. This is really what we need to

00:56:37.900 --> 00:56:39.679
be looking at. Hey, have you thought about looking

00:56:39.679 --> 00:56:43.719
at it this way? Because You just don't know.

00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:47.280
I mean, you can be as culturally confident as

00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:49.179
you can, but if you've never actually done the

00:56:49.179 --> 00:56:52.320
job yourself, you don't have that perspective.

00:56:53.079 --> 00:56:54.800
Yeah. And I think what's dangerous, and again,

00:56:54.900 --> 00:56:56.760
this is not blaming the researchers. I underlined

00:56:56.760 --> 00:56:58.679
it with Joel, for example. It sounds like I'm

00:56:58.679 --> 00:57:00.900
kind of beating him down when I talk about this.

00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:03.719
But when he did his study, and it was on a department

00:57:03.719 --> 00:57:07.300
that ran less than one call a night. Now you

00:57:07.300 --> 00:57:09.679
have urban and suburban departments going, oh,

00:57:09.719 --> 00:57:12.739
4896 is the healthier one. Science proved it.

00:57:13.019 --> 00:57:15.219
Well, as we mentioned, there were studies by

00:57:15.219 --> 00:57:17.280
tobacco companies that said that cigarettes were

00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:20.360
fine. You've got to understand the study and

00:57:20.360 --> 00:57:22.940
the sample size and the type of department. And

00:57:22.940 --> 00:57:24.440
even then, you've still got to ask the question,

00:57:24.519 --> 00:57:26.179
yeah, but why do they need to be away from their

00:57:26.179 --> 00:57:29.980
family for 56 hours? So this is what's exciting

00:57:29.980 --> 00:57:37.030
now. And again, it's not by any mean being having

00:57:37.030 --> 00:57:39.409
any sort of negative view of the researcher,

00:57:39.489 --> 00:57:42.449
but it's confirmation bias. We'll go ahead and

00:57:42.449 --> 00:57:45.789
study 56 versus 56. Oh, 56. Okay, brilliant.

00:57:45.849 --> 00:57:47.190
Then I don't have to do anything as a chief.

00:57:47.250 --> 00:57:48.710
We'll just carry on and we'll move some days

00:57:48.710 --> 00:57:52.150
around versus we have this massive problem. You

00:57:52.150 --> 00:57:54.909
know, it's like that DARPA, you know, DARPA is,

00:57:54.909 --> 00:57:57.510
is, is the research organization that says, all

00:57:57.510 --> 00:57:59.590
right, you know, robots in space, all right,

00:57:59.590 --> 00:58:02.320
go prove it. It can't work. And then they come

00:58:02.320 --> 00:58:03.860
out with these incredible things. That's how,

00:58:03.900 --> 00:58:06.800
you know, GPS and AI and all these other things

00:58:06.800 --> 00:58:08.579
were developed. Well, it's not even requiring

00:58:08.579 --> 00:58:11.619
that kind of bandwidth. But we as a profession

00:58:11.619 --> 00:58:14.599
need to be honest with you as a research community

00:58:14.599 --> 00:58:16.460
and say, look, if we're really being honest,

00:58:16.699 --> 00:58:19.940
one of the biggest problems is this. Is this

00:58:19.940 --> 00:58:22.059
an area that you want to go look in? And then

00:58:22.059 --> 00:58:24.179
you start providing data and the cortisol is

00:58:24.179 --> 00:58:26.940
this and the HIV is that. And we see this fewer

00:58:26.940 --> 00:58:29.760
cancers and this fewer mental health issues and

00:58:29.760 --> 00:58:32.239
more relationships are intact. And now people

00:58:32.239 --> 00:58:35.199
go, okay, now we start seeing it. But it's our

00:58:35.199 --> 00:58:37.179
fault. I've always said this. This is our fault

00:58:37.179 --> 00:58:39.800
as a profession because we have lied to everyone

00:58:39.800 --> 00:58:45.800
about what we do. My dog is in complete agreement

00:58:45.800 --> 00:58:50.659
with you there. Enthusiastically. Yeah, so, you

00:58:50.659 --> 00:58:52.280
know, like the one -on -two -off and all these

00:58:52.280 --> 00:58:54.500
things that we talk about, it's not one day on,

00:58:54.559 --> 00:58:56.980
two days off. It's three days crammed together

00:58:56.980 --> 00:58:59.400
with one day off as if you equate it 24 -48.

00:59:00.019 --> 00:59:03.820
So, you know, how can we expect to have good

00:59:03.820 --> 00:59:06.119
research when we're not even telling the researchers

00:59:06.119 --> 00:59:08.119
what we do? And then, like you said, when they

00:59:08.119 --> 00:59:10.519
come to the station, you know, Murphy's Law,

00:59:10.800 --> 00:59:12.380
they might want to experience something and then

00:59:12.380 --> 00:59:14.360
we have a quiet day so they get a skew perspective

00:59:14.360 --> 00:59:17.849
too. So it's merging these two. And obviously,

00:59:17.909 --> 00:59:19.690
the study that you guys are embarking on is going

00:59:19.690 --> 00:59:21.590
to help. But now these departments are making

00:59:21.590 --> 00:59:24.369
this switch. Now we can actually start getting

00:59:24.369 --> 00:59:27.710
data of the biggest element that everyone was

00:59:27.710 --> 00:59:29.369
missing, whether it was a cancer conversation,

00:59:29.690 --> 00:59:31.650
the mental health conversation, the weight gain,

00:59:31.710 --> 00:59:35.030
the testosterone, the mental health, excuse me,

00:59:35.030 --> 00:59:37.369
the addiction. All these things that we know

00:59:37.369 --> 00:59:40.230
are directly correlated, not solely, but directly

00:59:40.230 --> 00:59:42.969
correlated with sleep deprivation and actually

00:59:42.969 --> 00:59:47.659
start talking about it. Yeah, you know, one of

00:59:47.659 --> 00:59:49.840
the things that I love, one of the things that

00:59:49.840 --> 00:59:52.719
I love is that good science generates even better

00:59:52.719 --> 00:59:55.619
science. So, you know, you're always going to

00:59:55.619 --> 00:59:58.179
have limitations, but as researchers, we just,

00:59:58.219 --> 01:00:00.500
we try our best to minimize the limitations,

01:00:00.679 --> 01:00:03.699
to minimize the bias that you bring in to the

01:00:03.699 --> 01:00:08.179
equation. But I think that, you know, it's just

01:00:08.179 --> 01:00:11.099
incredibly important that we continue to push

01:00:11.099 --> 01:00:13.860
the envelope and to generate this science and

01:00:13.860 --> 01:00:19.320
to get larger sample sizes, right? Because again,

01:00:19.420 --> 01:00:23.099
in the research world, that's really what people

01:00:23.099 --> 01:00:25.159
hang their hat on. And that's really what you're

01:00:25.159 --> 01:00:28.780
looking for is, you know, something that you

01:00:28.780 --> 01:00:33.480
can say is generalizable. You know, in the research

01:00:33.480 --> 01:00:35.840
world, right, that's the gold standard is you

01:00:35.840 --> 01:00:38.139
want something that's large enough, a study that's

01:00:38.139 --> 01:00:40.199
large enough and that has enough statistical

01:00:40.199 --> 01:00:42.920
power to say that it's generalizable. You can

01:00:42.920 --> 01:00:45.400
say that from this limited set of individuals

01:00:45.400 --> 01:00:48.219
that we looked at in the study, we can say that

01:00:48.219 --> 01:00:52.119
we have a high level of confidence that the vast

01:00:52.119 --> 01:00:54.500
majority of others are going to be similar to

01:00:54.500 --> 01:00:58.889
them in some way. And that takes time. And sometimes

01:00:58.889 --> 01:01:01.750
you have to make decisions and their life or

01:01:01.750 --> 01:01:03.510
death decisions is what we're talking about is

01:01:03.510 --> 01:01:05.489
people's lives here. And you don't have time

01:01:05.489 --> 01:01:08.150
to get that level of confidence in your data.

01:01:08.230 --> 01:01:12.650
But I think that we still can do a good service

01:01:12.650 --> 01:01:15.409
in pushing that forward and doing that and getting

01:01:15.409 --> 01:01:18.829
more studies and larger sample sizes. That way

01:01:18.829 --> 01:01:22.360
we can generalize. You know, that's one of the

01:01:22.360 --> 01:01:24.199
challenges that we have, like when we were talking

01:01:24.199 --> 01:01:25.800
about our study that we're currently looking

01:01:25.800 --> 01:01:29.139
at with the D shift is that we just have such

01:01:29.139 --> 01:01:33.199
a small sample size because the research on it

01:01:33.199 --> 01:01:37.820
is in its infancy. But I think it's about balancing

01:01:37.820 --> 01:01:40.179
acts between, you know, waiting for the research

01:01:40.179 --> 01:01:44.179
to come out and deciding what you might need

01:01:44.179 --> 01:01:47.500
to do as far as policy and changes to your department

01:01:47.500 --> 01:01:50.320
and your organization in the meantime. Yeah,

01:01:50.320 --> 01:01:52.739
I've said this. I mean, you know, there's a certain

01:01:52.739 --> 01:01:55.039
line, obviously, where common sense just comes

01:01:55.039 --> 01:01:57.519
into it. And, you know, when it comes to his

01:01:57.519 --> 01:02:02.119
56 hours a week, more detrimental than 42. Firstly,

01:02:02.219 --> 01:02:04.139
it's common sense. It's like, do I really need

01:02:04.139 --> 01:02:06.260
to do research on if I stand in front of a moving

01:02:06.260 --> 01:02:08.539
bus, I'm going to get run over? There's a certain,

01:02:08.619 --> 01:02:11.360
where's that line of common sense? But also you

01:02:11.360 --> 01:02:13.460
can flip it around. People say to me, well, show

01:02:13.460 --> 01:02:16.139
me the data. I'm like, well, as we just discussed,

01:02:16.340 --> 01:02:19.199
there isn't any data on 2472. And I would ask

01:02:19.199 --> 01:02:22.940
why IFF, everyone else involved, chiefs, organizations,

01:02:23.300 --> 01:02:25.199
why isn't there? Because they're sure as hell

01:02:25.199 --> 01:02:27.420
should have been now. But let's flip it around.

01:02:27.699 --> 01:02:31.820
We've got amazing data on. What doesn't work,

01:02:31.980 --> 01:02:35.840
the graveyards are full of firefighters. So do

01:02:35.840 --> 01:02:38.260
you really need to wait for a study that shows

01:02:38.260 --> 01:02:40.039
that maybe if we give them more rest and recovery

01:02:40.039 --> 01:02:42.679
and therefore attract young people and fill these

01:02:42.679 --> 01:02:45.099
vacancies in these departments, stop the mandatory

01:02:45.099 --> 01:02:47.059
overtime, that that's going to be beneficial?

01:02:47.800 --> 01:02:51.019
No, of course we don't. But is it good along

01:02:51.019 --> 01:02:53.280
the way to start studying it now and backing

01:02:53.280 --> 01:02:55.539
it up with data and actually using that research

01:02:55.539 --> 01:02:59.460
to amplify things? 100%. But what I see a lot

01:02:59.460 --> 01:03:02.340
of times is, oh, we need to see the data as a

01:03:02.340 --> 01:03:04.480
deliberate hurdle because someone doesn't want

01:03:04.480 --> 01:03:06.820
to actually do their job. And those two things

01:03:06.820 --> 01:03:10.440
are two separate conversations. Sure, absolutely.

01:03:10.599 --> 01:03:15.079
It can definitely be used to stonewall. Yeah.

01:03:15.139 --> 01:03:17.699
All right. Well, I want to get to Second Alarm

01:03:17.699 --> 01:03:20.239
and UCF Restores and all the solutions for people

01:03:20.239 --> 01:03:22.820
that are on this journey already. But just while

01:03:22.820 --> 01:03:25.650
we're on the proactive side. Talk to me about

01:03:25.650 --> 01:03:28.849
what you're doing with FSU now, which departments

01:03:28.849 --> 01:03:31.409
you study, and then kind of what are the variables

01:03:31.409 --> 01:03:33.590
that you're looking at, you know, baseline and

01:03:33.590 --> 01:03:38.030
beyond. Yes, so very exciting to be involved

01:03:38.030 --> 01:03:43.550
in this project. I met Kyle Smith out of FSU

01:03:43.550 --> 01:03:48.110
a year or so ago. So it's a relatively new partnership,

01:03:48.469 --> 01:03:51.530
new relationship in this work that we're doing.

01:03:52.300 --> 01:03:56.599
He and one of his other colleagues were doing

01:03:56.599 --> 01:04:00.559
a different study on firefighters in a supplement.

01:04:00.940 --> 01:04:03.219
It didn't have anything to do with shift work.

01:04:03.380 --> 01:04:05.360
It was looking at different supplementation to

01:04:05.360 --> 01:04:07.320
help firefighters' performance and recovery.

01:04:07.840 --> 01:04:10.460
And my husband actually ended up being a participant

01:04:10.460 --> 01:04:15.710
in that study. He was really excited about it

01:04:15.710 --> 01:04:19.130
because my husband and I, we actually, we met

01:04:19.130 --> 01:04:21.010
at CrossFit. I didn't mention that. I probably

01:04:21.010 --> 01:04:23.110
shouldn't mention that. So that was where we

01:04:23.110 --> 01:04:26.190
ended up meeting. But we both have always been

01:04:26.190 --> 01:04:30.030
really interested in recovery and heart rate

01:04:30.030 --> 01:04:33.829
variability and sleep and how can we improve

01:04:33.829 --> 01:04:35.789
it personally in our own lives. So we've always

01:04:35.789 --> 01:04:38.730
worn a whoop band ever since whoop band came

01:04:38.730 --> 01:04:42.079
out. And he was super excited about this study

01:04:42.079 --> 01:04:44.019
because he's like, yeah, I get to I get a whole

01:04:44.019 --> 01:04:47.099
year's subscription to Wootband if I participate

01:04:47.099 --> 01:04:49.300
in this study. So I want to help the research,

01:04:49.360 --> 01:04:52.260
but I also want to get a whole three years worth

01:04:52.260 --> 01:04:54.280
of subscription to the Wootband. So I'm in this

01:04:54.280 --> 01:04:56.280
study and I was like, oh, that's interesting.

01:04:56.340 --> 01:04:57.760
You know, what are they looking at? And I wanted

01:04:57.760 --> 01:05:00.980
to learn a little bit more about the study. So

01:05:00.980 --> 01:05:04.980
he told me and. And he was talking with, I don't

01:05:04.980 --> 01:05:06.960
know if he was talking with Lily, Kyle's colleague,

01:05:07.059 --> 01:05:09.940
or if he was talking with Kyle, but they were

01:05:09.940 --> 01:05:11.739
talking about some of these other studies that

01:05:11.739 --> 01:05:14.239
they were planning with the fire service. And

01:05:14.239 --> 01:05:15.940
they started talking about mental health. And

01:05:15.940 --> 01:05:17.980
my husband said, oh, you should probably connect

01:05:17.980 --> 01:05:20.260
with my wife on this. This is like what she does

01:05:20.260 --> 01:05:22.199
too in the mental health. And so that was how

01:05:22.199 --> 01:05:25.699
I connected with the researchers from FSU and

01:05:25.699 --> 01:05:27.760
learned that they were going to start looking

01:05:27.760 --> 01:05:32.590
at Gainesville's transition from. I believe they

01:05:32.590 --> 01:05:37.530
were on 24 or 48 into the D shift. And so I connected

01:05:37.530 --> 01:05:40.769
with Kyle and I said, Hey, are you looking at

01:05:40.769 --> 01:05:44.090
any psychological measures along with what it

01:05:44.090 --> 01:05:46.030
is that you're looking at? And he said, no, you

01:05:46.030 --> 01:05:47.849
know, we didn't have anybody to do that. And

01:05:47.849 --> 01:05:50.130
I was like, Oh my gosh, this is like perfect

01:05:50.130 --> 01:05:53.590
timing. I would love to be involved if, if I,

01:05:53.610 --> 01:05:59.699
if I can. And he was very welcoming and. So it

01:05:59.699 --> 01:06:03.659
was a nice it was a nice pairing of their area

01:06:03.659 --> 01:06:06.639
of expertise, being able to look at the physiological

01:06:06.639 --> 01:06:10.440
implications of this potential shift change or

01:06:10.440 --> 01:06:12.980
the potential physiological implications of the

01:06:12.980 --> 01:06:15.360
shift change through monitoring with the band

01:06:15.360 --> 01:06:20.139
and saliva sampling with us on the psychological

01:06:20.139 --> 01:06:23.480
side where we're doing some assessments of work

01:06:23.480 --> 01:06:26.900
life balance and resilience and quality of life,

01:06:26.960 --> 01:06:31.369
those types of things. So we first cohort coming

01:06:31.369 --> 01:06:35.710
through was Gainesville. And then the second

01:06:35.710 --> 01:06:37.989
cohort we've got coming that we've got involved

01:06:37.989 --> 01:06:42.010
now is Destin Fire Rescue. And then we're pretty

01:06:42.010 --> 01:06:44.809
excited. We're actually working on another study

01:06:44.809 --> 01:06:47.670
with Pasco County. Pasco County is doing some

01:06:47.670 --> 01:06:50.030
really, really cool and innovative stuff with

01:06:50.030 --> 01:06:52.369
their new hires. We're working on a study with

01:06:52.369 --> 01:06:54.190
them, but they're going to come on board as our

01:06:54.190 --> 01:06:57.849
next cohort. So what's exciting about that is.

01:06:58.460 --> 01:07:00.900
Gainesville and Destin are both very small organizations,

01:07:01.139 --> 01:07:05.000
but PASCO is a large -ish organization. So we

01:07:05.000 --> 01:07:07.940
will hopefully potentially have a lot more members

01:07:07.940 --> 01:07:11.300
who are able and willing to participate to gather

01:07:11.300 --> 01:07:14.980
some data from. I'm going to get Dixon back on

01:07:14.980 --> 01:07:16.820
the show because when he started telling me,

01:07:16.840 --> 01:07:19.619
we were talking a few weeks ago. um about all

01:07:19.619 --> 01:07:21.900
the other stuff they do at pasco all the other

01:07:21.900 --> 01:07:24.739
proactive um you know that they've got health

01:07:24.739 --> 01:07:26.699
resources and obviously mental health resource

01:07:26.699 --> 01:07:29.719
and there's such a low if not zero barrier to

01:07:29.719 --> 01:07:32.480
entry that you know the last time we talked about

01:07:32.480 --> 01:07:35.280
24 72 now we're going to get to unpack all the

01:07:35.280 --> 01:07:38.019
other things extremely extremely proactive department

01:07:38.019 --> 01:07:41.380
and it's so exciting because now i'm sure they

01:07:41.380 --> 01:07:43.730
were probably losing you know recruits to other

01:07:43.730 --> 01:07:45.750
people and now they're going to be circling around

01:07:45.750 --> 01:07:47.889
and once they see they've got a healthy work

01:07:47.889 --> 01:07:50.849
week and all these other tools really supporting

01:07:50.849 --> 01:07:53.269
their firefighters i got a funny feeling they're

01:07:53.269 --> 01:07:55.110
going to be retaining a lot of their people now

01:07:55.110 --> 01:07:59.210
yeah i think so we were actually out there earlier

01:07:59.210 --> 01:08:02.360
this week doing the kickoff for the study that

01:08:02.360 --> 01:08:04.300
we're doing with them. And they, they had a packed

01:08:04.300 --> 01:08:06.400
house full of new recruits. We walked into the

01:08:06.400 --> 01:08:08.000
room and we were like, whoa, we weren't expecting

01:08:08.000 --> 01:08:11.039
this many of you. So that was fantastic. And

01:08:11.039 --> 01:08:14.159
just their willingness to be open -minded about

01:08:14.159 --> 01:08:17.739
implementing. For example, what we're doing with

01:08:17.739 --> 01:08:22.439
Pasco now is we're looking at a breath work intervention

01:08:22.439 --> 01:08:27.600
and gratitude journaling. And so. you know both

01:08:27.600 --> 01:08:30.060
have some foundational science behind the positive

01:08:30.060 --> 01:08:32.579
benefits both physiologically and psychologically

01:08:32.579 --> 01:08:35.819
but i i feel like if you would try to walk into

01:08:35.819 --> 01:08:38.100
a lot of other fire departments and say hey we

01:08:38.100 --> 01:08:39.699
want to get your members to do some breathing

01:08:39.699 --> 01:08:42.539
exercises and gratitude journaling you know you'd

01:08:42.539 --> 01:08:45.479
be laughed right out of there at best that would

01:08:45.479 --> 01:08:46.859
be probably the most pleasant thing they would

01:08:46.859 --> 01:08:51.159
say so just their willingness to entertain some

01:08:51.159 --> 01:08:54.479
of these ideas has been awesome I got a friend

01:08:54.479 --> 01:08:59.460
who came on who's a, oh my goodness. Where was

01:08:59.460 --> 01:09:02.500
he? Tampa cop. That's right. So close to Pasco.

01:09:02.699 --> 01:09:06.579
One of his friends works in Pasco on the kind

01:09:06.579 --> 01:09:10.140
of the hiring side now for fire rescue. And he

01:09:10.140 --> 01:09:12.649
said. I literally need to hire another person.

01:09:12.750 --> 01:09:15.090
He said, the phone will not stop ringing from

01:09:15.090 --> 01:09:17.189
people wanting to work for Pasco. Now they heard

01:09:17.189 --> 01:09:19.529
about the 2472. And this is what I'm telling

01:09:19.529 --> 01:09:22.090
people. And now there's a revolution. So now

01:09:22.090 --> 01:09:24.090
it's not just a hypothesis. We're seeing it.

01:09:24.170 --> 01:09:26.909
But when you show these young people that you

01:09:26.909 --> 01:09:29.350
actually care enough and you want them to be

01:09:29.350 --> 01:09:31.789
home and you want your department fully staffed

01:09:31.789 --> 01:09:33.890
so you're not being forced to work over and over

01:09:33.890 --> 01:09:37.380
again, build it, they will come. And Pasco has

01:09:37.380 --> 01:09:39.159
seen it and Boca has seen it and Gainesville

01:09:39.159 --> 01:09:41.859
has seen it and Destin has seen it. So, you know,

01:09:41.859 --> 01:09:44.479
it's so great to hear because, again, it is common

01:09:44.479 --> 01:09:46.699
sense. But now you can actually point and say,

01:09:46.739 --> 01:09:48.960
go ask him. Like you said, ask Kelly how full

01:09:48.960 --> 01:09:51.380
that room was when she walked in. Had that been,

01:09:51.380 --> 01:09:54.100
you know, Marion County, where I live, very,

01:09:54.220 --> 01:09:56.260
very different, you know, scrambling just to

01:09:56.260 --> 01:09:58.119
find anyone to fill the seats. And I don't mean

01:09:58.119 --> 01:10:01.180
that judgmentally. I just mean it's pure numbers,

01:10:01.279 --> 01:10:03.100
you know, before you used to be able to take

01:10:03.100 --> 01:10:05.989
10 percent of the list. Now, a lot of these departments

01:10:05.989 --> 01:10:08.670
are taking 60, 70, 80 percent of the list. So

01:10:08.670 --> 01:10:11.670
it is a very different landscape. But seeing

01:10:11.670 --> 01:10:14.010
that people have done it, large county, small

01:10:14.010 --> 01:10:17.329
county, rich county, you know, not so affluent

01:10:17.329 --> 01:10:19.930
city, whatever it is, like they all made it work

01:10:19.930 --> 01:10:22.289
because they simply said enough is enough. We're

01:10:22.289 --> 01:10:24.109
going to just, you know, draw a line in the sand

01:10:24.109 --> 01:10:26.619
and make it happen. And now we have these shining

01:10:26.619 --> 01:10:29.239
examples of all the things that we talked about.

01:10:29.340 --> 01:10:31.760
So it's really exciting that you've managed to

01:10:31.760 --> 01:10:37.460
capture some baselines and then get the other

01:10:37.460 --> 01:10:39.640
side. Because I know even with Gainesville, I

01:10:39.640 --> 01:10:41.619
think their firefighters are fully staffed. And

01:10:41.619 --> 01:10:43.520
they do that between September and April, which

01:10:43.520 --> 01:10:45.840
is amazing. But at the officer level, because

01:10:45.840 --> 01:10:47.520
it's a young department, I think they're still

01:10:47.520 --> 01:10:50.439
considering laterals or they've got some places

01:10:50.439 --> 01:10:52.819
to fill. So that would be a kind of skewed perspective

01:10:52.819 --> 01:10:56.619
until there. truly truly on a 24 72 all the way

01:10:56.619 --> 01:10:59.800
through the ranks yeah i think that that's such

01:10:59.800 --> 01:11:02.520
an important point you make too again going back

01:11:02.520 --> 01:11:06.899
to the nuances of the research if if your researchers

01:11:06.899 --> 01:11:09.199
don't know things like that about what's going

01:11:09.199 --> 01:11:12.310
on that might be reflected in the data you could

01:11:12.310 --> 01:11:14.710
come up with some potentially really skewed findings

01:11:14.710 --> 01:11:16.729
that aren't that aren't accurate you know that

01:11:16.729 --> 01:11:18.930
your findings might not really be reflective

01:11:18.930 --> 01:11:21.609
of what it's going to look like in the future

01:11:21.609 --> 01:11:24.069
because of something exactly like that happening

01:11:24.069 --> 01:11:28.449
absolutely so that's proactively now let's talk

01:11:28.449 --> 01:11:30.369
about i mean this is proactive as well but let's

01:11:30.369 --> 01:11:32.689
talk about the resources you mentioned when you

01:11:32.689 --> 01:11:35.930
first kind of explored this area it was hard

01:11:35.930 --> 01:11:38.689
to find a mental health practitioner that was

01:11:38.689 --> 01:11:41.430
really culturally competent, that knew how to

01:11:41.430 --> 01:11:45.210
work with us. So you get this grant money. What

01:11:45.210 --> 01:11:47.350
were the tools that you started building for

01:11:47.350 --> 01:11:49.109
our community and the first responder professions

01:11:49.109 --> 01:11:53.470
through the second alarm project? So we originally

01:11:53.470 --> 01:11:56.409
started with these four areas or four pillars

01:11:56.409 --> 01:11:59.369
of the program that we wanted to be able to offer.

01:11:59.430 --> 01:12:02.869
And we wanted to be able to offer them in a way

01:12:02.869 --> 01:12:06.550
that was, again, competent for the population

01:12:06.550 --> 01:12:11.409
and very first responder specific. And so we,

01:12:11.470 --> 01:12:14.789
you know, peer support is an evidence -based

01:12:14.789 --> 01:12:17.470
intervention in mental health and it's not a

01:12:17.470 --> 01:12:20.710
new thing. I mean, it's been around for 150 years.

01:12:20.810 --> 01:12:23.130
Mental health has been doing peer support and

01:12:23.130 --> 01:12:25.170
it's now been brought into the first responder

01:12:25.170 --> 01:12:28.689
realm in the last. you know, what, 20 years or

01:12:28.689 --> 01:12:31.090
so, and definitely in the last 10 years. And

01:12:31.090 --> 01:12:33.710
so there's a lot of good hard science that shows

01:12:33.710 --> 01:12:35.750
the benefits of peer support and the benefits

01:12:35.750 --> 01:12:37.729
of peer support with first responders. So we

01:12:37.729 --> 01:12:42.090
definitely knew we needed to grow the availability

01:12:42.090 --> 01:12:44.989
of peer support within the community. So that

01:12:44.989 --> 01:12:48.430
was a big part of what we did. We also wanted

01:12:48.430 --> 01:12:51.210
to make sure that there was opportunities for

01:12:51.210 --> 01:12:55.149
culture change and leadership involvement in

01:12:55.149 --> 01:12:58.979
these initiatives. And really like driving the

01:12:58.979 --> 01:13:01.359
culture change in the organization was one of

01:13:01.359 --> 01:13:04.159
the biggest parts. And so being able to educate

01:13:04.159 --> 01:13:07.039
leadership on why mental wellness was important

01:13:07.039 --> 01:13:10.100
and, you know, why you need to have these resources

01:13:10.100 --> 01:13:12.760
available for your people and why it makes a

01:13:12.760 --> 01:13:15.380
difference. And that's, you know, becoming a

01:13:15.380 --> 01:13:18.000
much easier sell for sure these days, but it's

01:13:18.000 --> 01:13:19.939
still in some places it's a really hard sell.

01:13:20.079 --> 01:13:23.989
There's just, you know, there's a lot of. very

01:13:23.989 --> 01:13:27.090
old school thinking out there, just people who

01:13:27.090 --> 01:13:29.170
haven't had access to this information their

01:13:29.170 --> 01:13:32.989
whole lives, so they're unaware of it. We also

01:13:32.989 --> 01:13:35.850
wanted to make sure that we did have a level

01:13:35.850 --> 01:13:42.270
of access to clinicians and not for individuals

01:13:42.270 --> 01:13:45.310
to not have to go through their EAP or to not

01:13:45.310 --> 01:13:47.350
have to even go through their commercial insurance

01:13:47.350 --> 01:13:50.989
carrier because we were finding this phenomenon

01:13:50.989 --> 01:13:53.439
of, I don't know if you've heard of it, ghost

01:13:53.439 --> 01:13:57.880
networks it's where you're you have good what's

01:13:57.880 --> 01:14:00.500
supposedly good insurance coverage which many

01:14:00.500 --> 01:14:03.100
first responders do right if you work for a city

01:14:03.100 --> 01:14:07.479
or county municipality they typically have healthy

01:14:07.479 --> 01:14:10.880
insurance plan that you can participate in. But

01:14:10.880 --> 01:14:13.039
we were finding that these mental health networks

01:14:13.039 --> 01:14:15.500
were largely ghost networks, meaning that it

01:14:15.500 --> 01:14:18.199
looks like there's 100 providers on this list.

01:14:18.279 --> 01:14:21.640
But when you start calling down, you can't get

01:14:21.640 --> 01:14:24.899
in touch with 75 % of them, the number isn't

01:14:24.899 --> 01:14:28.619
active anymore, or you get a voicemail recording

01:14:28.619 --> 01:14:32.569
that says, you know, don't leave a message because

01:14:32.569 --> 01:14:35.430
your message will not be returned on this line.

01:14:35.569 --> 01:14:39.930
We're not taking new patients. So we have one

01:14:39.930 --> 01:14:44.529
of our larger agencies in the area, the peer

01:14:44.529 --> 01:14:46.930
support team called down their network list.

01:14:47.170 --> 01:14:50.670
And I think out of 120 providers on the list,

01:14:50.729 --> 01:14:53.189
they were actually able to make contact with

01:14:53.189 --> 01:14:57.170
four or five of them. And I don't think any of

01:14:57.170 --> 01:14:59.590
them had expertise in working with first responders.

01:15:00.859 --> 01:15:04.399
You know, again, we were trying to avoid as many

01:15:04.399 --> 01:15:08.000
impediments to accessing services as possible.

01:15:08.119 --> 01:15:10.180
So we wanted to make sure we had a carve out

01:15:10.180 --> 01:15:13.119
to be able to connect a first responder with

01:15:13.119 --> 01:15:16.840
a clinician right away, immediately, just to

01:15:16.840 --> 01:15:21.060
set up services. We also wanted to make sure

01:15:21.060 --> 01:15:23.779
what we were doing was, again, rooted in science

01:15:23.779 --> 01:15:26.239
to be able to evaluate it. So that was kind of

01:15:26.239 --> 01:15:30.180
the skeleton of the program as it started. to

01:15:30.180 --> 01:15:33.359
offer education opportunities on different topics,

01:15:33.479 --> 01:15:37.680
which we've carried over and carried forth. But

01:15:37.680 --> 01:15:41.100
I would say our program is still largely structured

01:15:41.100 --> 01:15:43.880
very similarly. Those are our core components

01:15:43.880 --> 01:15:47.960
that we do. With the integration or the collaboration

01:15:47.960 --> 01:15:51.300
partnership now with UCF Restores, we've even

01:15:51.300 --> 01:15:57.020
expanded the ability to look at treatment in

01:15:57.020 --> 01:16:02.479
a different way. What they have been able to

01:16:02.479 --> 01:16:08.260
do with as far as success in treating PTSD has

01:16:08.260 --> 01:16:11.039
been unparalleled in any of the literature that

01:16:11.039 --> 01:16:16.260
I've seen. So being able to get that out to more

01:16:16.260 --> 01:16:19.060
first responders who have really may have tried

01:16:19.060 --> 01:16:21.359
everything else and they're still suffering,

01:16:21.560 --> 01:16:26.600
I think is a really big opportunity. I want to

01:16:26.600 --> 01:16:29.260
go back to what you said. um peer support has

01:16:29.260 --> 01:16:32.600
been around for 150 years which profession was

01:16:32.600 --> 01:16:34.060
that in one would make the assumption it was

01:16:34.060 --> 01:16:37.739
a military but so it is historically rooted in

01:16:37.739 --> 01:16:39.579
the military although a lot of these weren't

01:16:39.579 --> 01:16:44.720
like formal is it formal peer support um i'm

01:16:44.720 --> 01:16:47.579
trying to think of the the term is escaping me

01:16:47.579 --> 01:16:50.159
a battle buddy there you go the military's had

01:16:50.159 --> 01:16:52.859
you know battle buddies for for as long as there's

01:16:52.859 --> 01:16:56.939
there's been the military um and and just in

01:16:57.520 --> 01:17:00.539
more recovery -oriented mental health services.

01:17:00.899 --> 01:17:05.939
So looking in people with severe and persistent

01:17:05.939 --> 01:17:08.500
mental health issues, for example, peer support

01:17:08.500 --> 01:17:11.439
has been used in those communities for a very

01:17:11.439 --> 01:17:16.380
long time. And it has been so important because,

01:17:16.420 --> 01:17:19.659
as we've kind of said several times throughout

01:17:19.659 --> 01:17:22.670
this conversation, Somebody else with the same

01:17:22.670 --> 01:17:25.970
lived experience as you or a similar lived experience

01:17:25.970 --> 01:17:30.949
as you, it just levels the playing field. You

01:17:30.949 --> 01:17:32.909
feel like you don't have to do a lot of explaining.

01:17:33.109 --> 01:17:35.029
You feel like there's less judgment. You feel

01:17:35.029 --> 01:17:37.930
like they just have this sense of understanding

01:17:37.930 --> 01:17:41.390
or this shared connection that almost goes without

01:17:41.390 --> 01:17:44.090
words is how we've heard it described among first

01:17:44.090 --> 01:17:49.310
responders. Someone that gets me is kind of what

01:17:49.310 --> 01:17:53.029
I like to. say that you know they just get me

01:17:53.029 --> 01:17:55.930
they just understand that's something i heard

01:17:55.930 --> 01:17:58.130
over and over again whether it was struggle well

01:17:58.130 --> 01:18:01.409
save a warrior whatever the program was is you

01:18:01.409 --> 01:18:03.510
know they would be in this group and they were

01:18:03.510 --> 01:18:06.390
like everyone had a story and a lot of people

01:18:06.390 --> 01:18:08.409
would say a lot of people had it worse than me

01:18:08.409 --> 01:18:11.850
but i think it was a real realization that everyone

01:18:11.850 --> 01:18:13.689
when they first met each other probably looked

01:18:13.689 --> 01:18:15.649
like they were doing okay unless they truly were

01:18:15.649 --> 01:18:18.430
in absolute crisis because we all have that mask

01:18:19.159 --> 01:18:21.479
And it's so sad because if you actually climbed

01:18:21.479 --> 01:18:24.020
inside the head of a dining room table in a firehouse,

01:18:24.180 --> 01:18:26.939
you'd realize that a lot of people at different

01:18:26.939 --> 01:18:28.960
levels were going through their stuff. And as

01:18:28.960 --> 01:18:31.380
we talked about, one of the, I think the least

01:18:31.380 --> 01:18:34.560
discussed elements is a lot of us do have things

01:18:34.560 --> 01:18:36.539
when we were young. That doesn't mean that you're

01:18:36.539 --> 01:18:39.100
broken and you're kind of like carrying the carcass

01:18:39.100 --> 01:18:42.100
into the fire service, but there's two paths.

01:18:42.319 --> 01:18:45.199
If you address it, I truly believe that becomes

01:18:45.199 --> 01:18:46.960
strength. And we talked before we hit record.

01:18:47.640 --> 01:18:49.619
The hope of post -traumatic growth, I think,

01:18:49.619 --> 01:18:52.100
is what we need to be front and center now. Not

01:18:52.100 --> 01:18:54.380
I'm living with my PTSD. That's such a doom and

01:18:54.380 --> 01:18:58.439
gloom message to everyone. But you can't, you

01:18:58.439 --> 01:19:00.420
know, if you're not understanding that a lot

01:19:00.420 --> 01:19:01.979
of people that said, you know what, I'm going

01:19:01.979 --> 01:19:03.939
to go and risk my life for complete strangers

01:19:03.939 --> 01:19:06.000
has probably had some shit when they were young.

01:19:06.100 --> 01:19:08.140
Then we're missing a big part of the mental health

01:19:08.140 --> 01:19:11.239
puzzle. And if we can put rather than some box

01:19:11.239 --> 01:19:15.390
checking MMPI that is. not going to determine

01:19:15.390 --> 01:19:17.670
whether you can be a first responder or not and

01:19:17.670 --> 01:19:20.029
a polygraph which i said on here many times i've

01:19:20.029 --> 01:19:22.789
lied myself through three take that money and

01:19:22.789 --> 01:19:25.489
actually put these young people through counseling

01:19:25.489 --> 01:19:28.170
at the front door not to say oh you're broken

01:19:28.170 --> 01:19:30.550
but just to say hey there's a good chance that

01:19:30.550 --> 01:19:34.310
the things that took you to this point now you

01:19:34.310 --> 01:19:36.630
know there's going to be some struggles let's

01:19:36.630 --> 01:19:39.250
just Have conversations. Let's just put it out

01:19:39.250 --> 01:19:41.850
there that the kind of person that you are was

01:19:41.850 --> 01:19:43.710
probably forged by some of these. And these can

01:19:43.710 --> 01:19:47.090
be absolute strengths. But if you bury it down,

01:19:47.170 --> 01:19:50.810
as that Mexican proverb says, they tried to bury

01:19:50.810 --> 01:19:53.930
us. They didn't know we were seeds. It will eventually

01:19:53.930 --> 01:19:56.689
come through. So now you've got this beautiful,

01:19:56.850 --> 01:19:59.250
healthy mental health conversation. You've removed

01:19:59.250 --> 01:20:02.130
barrier to entry to a counselor. And you've normalized

01:20:02.130 --> 01:20:06.579
this as much as PT. Now you're turning these,

01:20:06.680 --> 01:20:09.460
you know, ultimately fractures into strengths,

01:20:09.640 --> 01:20:11.619
you know, like the gold glue on a Japanese pottery.

01:20:11.800 --> 01:20:14.640
So I feel like, you know, this is, you know,

01:20:14.680 --> 01:20:16.279
the peer support and all these other ones, there's

01:20:16.279 --> 01:20:19.300
so many opportunities for us to just have good

01:20:19.300 --> 01:20:22.659
proactive conversations. And even Dana Ali, who

01:20:22.659 --> 01:20:25.659
came on here a long time ago now, she was saying,

01:20:25.720 --> 01:20:29.079
I mean, if we just acted like a community again.

01:20:29.710 --> 01:20:31.689
we wouldn't even need to label it peer support

01:20:31.689 --> 01:20:33.890
anymore. We'd just be a bunch of people creating

01:20:33.890 --> 01:20:36.090
an environment that was comfortable for people

01:20:36.090 --> 01:20:38.850
to be vulnerable and therefore have no problem

01:20:38.850 --> 01:20:42.510
reaching out when they were struggling. Yeah,

01:20:42.529 --> 01:20:45.609
absolutely. She's fantastic too, Dina. She's,

01:20:45.609 --> 01:20:48.810
again, one of those people really early on that

01:20:48.810 --> 01:20:52.810
I reached out to just because I had learned so

01:20:52.810 --> 01:20:54.630
much about the work that she had been doing.

01:20:55.550 --> 01:20:57.829
wanted to connect with her. And she was so willing

01:20:57.829 --> 01:21:01.329
to connect and to share her knowledge. It was

01:21:01.329 --> 01:21:05.310
fantastic. Absolutely. Well, you hit the EAP

01:21:05.310 --> 01:21:07.789
side as well. And I've never heard that ghost

01:21:07.789 --> 01:21:12.869
network. So another education for me. But I've

01:21:12.869 --> 01:21:15.390
said this a lot recently. It's so sad. I've heard

01:21:15.390 --> 01:21:18.890
so many EAP Russian roulette stories. And I've

01:21:18.890 --> 01:21:22.449
heard them because thank God that person ended

01:21:22.449 --> 01:21:26.050
up finding someone else. But I would ask people,

01:21:26.109 --> 01:21:27.670
I mean, again, we're talking about responsibility

01:21:27.670 --> 01:21:29.329
of, you know, whether it's tobacco companies

01:21:29.329 --> 01:21:31.810
or, you know, fire departments or cities and

01:21:31.810 --> 01:21:35.470
counties. If you are giving these resources to

01:21:35.470 --> 01:21:39.050
people who arguably could be in crisis and they

01:21:39.050 --> 01:21:40.949
call two or three numbers and they don't get

01:21:40.949 --> 01:21:43.369
an answer or they get told I'm a child psychologist

01:21:43.369 --> 01:21:45.510
or they go to the person and they burst into

01:21:45.510 --> 01:21:47.289
tears when they tell them their stories and say,

01:21:47.329 --> 01:21:50.210
I can't help you. How many of those men and women

01:21:50.210 --> 01:21:53.140
are now in the ground? because we failed them

01:21:53.140 --> 01:21:55.439
with that so that's a really important point

01:21:55.439 --> 01:21:57.899
that you made because i've heard it from so many

01:21:57.899 --> 01:22:00.060
people i even wrote about it in my story in my

01:22:00.060 --> 01:22:02.539
latest book that's exactly what happens to the

01:22:02.539 --> 01:22:04.680
character because i've heard it so many times

01:22:04.680 --> 01:22:07.600
that's something that needs to be addressed everyone

01:22:07.600 --> 01:22:11.460
listening needs to go and go through their eap

01:22:11.460 --> 01:22:13.239
and make these phone numbers because some like

01:22:13.239 --> 01:22:15.939
pasco i know i've got an amazing list that people

01:22:15.939 --> 01:22:17.659
you know are actually there on the other side

01:22:17.659 --> 01:22:20.460
but i mean like you said over a hundred and four

01:22:21.119 --> 01:22:23.420
even answered the phone, of which none of them

01:22:23.420 --> 01:22:25.779
were truly culturally competent. Think about

01:22:25.779 --> 01:22:28.300
the deadly result of that if a firefighter or

01:22:28.300 --> 01:22:32.560
cop or dispatcher is in crisis. Absolutely. It's

01:22:32.560 --> 01:22:37.760
a huge concern. It truly is. The Health Research

01:22:37.760 --> 01:22:43.220
Services Administration has a data set. And so

01:22:43.220 --> 01:22:45.819
they know how many licensed mental health providers

01:22:45.819 --> 01:22:48.539
there are in a particular area. And you can go

01:22:48.539 --> 01:22:50.920
on their site and look at different areas. And

01:22:50.920 --> 01:22:56.479
most of the Florida panhandle and a lot of actually

01:22:56.479 --> 01:22:58.420
the peninsula is considered a health provider

01:22:58.420 --> 01:23:01.560
shortage area for mental health services. So

01:23:01.560 --> 01:23:04.300
we're starting at a disadvantage there. There

01:23:04.300 --> 01:23:07.000
just really aren't enough. providers in general,

01:23:07.079 --> 01:23:10.319
and depending on what area you live in, really

01:23:10.319 --> 01:23:13.859
dictates if you're going to even have 100 providers

01:23:13.859 --> 01:23:16.319
to start from to begin with, to call down. In

01:23:16.319 --> 01:23:19.000
some of our counties in the state, they literally

01:23:19.000 --> 01:23:21.680
have zero. They have zero licensed providers

01:23:21.680 --> 01:23:26.560
in some of these rural counties. But then finding

01:23:26.560 --> 01:23:29.680
one that that doesn't just have like an occupational

01:23:29.680 --> 01:23:32.199
level of awareness about what first responders

01:23:32.199 --> 01:23:36.859
do. But then somebody that uses some evidence

01:23:36.859 --> 01:23:40.119
based approaches to treatment for things like

01:23:40.119 --> 01:23:43.140
PTSD or suicidal thoughts. You know, there's

01:23:43.140 --> 01:23:46.539
really only, I believe, four evidence based treatments

01:23:46.539 --> 01:23:49.899
for suicidal thoughts. And that's a you know,

01:23:49.899 --> 01:23:53.810
that's a that's a. problem with a high level

01:23:53.810 --> 01:23:55.750
of acuity. You want to get somebody who's having

01:23:55.750 --> 01:23:58.289
suicidal thoughts to somebody who knows what

01:23:58.289 --> 01:24:00.810
they're doing with that person as soon as you

01:24:00.810 --> 01:24:05.449
can. And when you only have a handful of evidence

01:24:05.449 --> 01:24:07.750
-based modalities out there to be able to use

01:24:07.750 --> 01:24:10.949
in that situation, and not everybody's trained

01:24:10.949 --> 01:24:14.989
in them, that reduces the likelihood that you're

01:24:14.989 --> 01:24:17.390
going to get somebody who needs the care into

01:24:17.390 --> 01:24:21.760
the care that they need. Again, that's why I've

01:24:21.760 --> 01:24:26.739
been so impressed with the treatment. That is

01:24:26.739 --> 01:24:30.239
coming out of a clinical research institution

01:24:30.239 --> 01:24:34.260
like UCF Restores because they just have a very

01:24:34.260 --> 01:24:38.819
high level of efficacy with treating PTSD into

01:24:38.819 --> 01:24:42.300
remission. And even I think this is right around

01:24:42.300 --> 01:24:45.680
77 % of first responders who come in when they

01:24:45.680 --> 01:24:48.199
leave treatment no longer have symptoms of PTSD.

01:24:48.560 --> 01:24:51.260
And that's a very high rate comparatively to

01:24:51.260 --> 01:24:56.229
the rest of the treatment population. Incidents

01:24:56.229 --> 01:24:58.850
of relapse from it, I think is also very low

01:24:58.850 --> 01:25:04.449
around one or 2%. So just getting people to providers

01:25:04.449 --> 01:25:08.470
who are able to do these more advanced techniques

01:25:08.470 --> 01:25:12.369
and modalities is an even slimmer margin than

01:25:12.369 --> 01:25:15.670
finding a provider at all sometimes. What are

01:25:15.670 --> 01:25:18.909
the elements that UCF Restores is doing? What

01:25:18.909 --> 01:25:20.810
are these treatments that are working so well

01:25:20.810 --> 01:25:25.510
compared to others? So the basis or the foundation

01:25:25.510 --> 01:25:29.689
for what their therapists do is exposure -based

01:25:29.689 --> 01:25:31.930
therapies that you might be familiar with those.

01:25:32.789 --> 01:25:35.069
Primarily something called cognitive processing

01:25:35.069 --> 01:25:39.310
therapy that's done. And it's not for everyone.

01:25:39.350 --> 01:25:42.729
So not everybody is a candidate for this type

01:25:42.729 --> 01:25:44.829
of treatment or this type of work. So there is

01:25:44.829 --> 01:25:47.270
a pretty detailed screening process that you

01:25:47.270 --> 01:25:49.220
have to do. go through to make sure that it's

01:25:49.220 --> 01:25:52.859
a right fit for you. But it is highly effective.

01:25:53.140 --> 01:25:56.939
And basically, you have to just in very general

01:25:56.939 --> 01:26:00.100
terms, you know, you walk back through that traumatic

01:26:00.100 --> 01:26:03.260
event or that index trauma with that trained

01:26:03.260 --> 01:26:06.770
professional and As you're walking back through

01:26:06.770 --> 01:26:10.869
it, you're learning how your body reacts to the

01:26:10.869 --> 01:26:14.090
memories and the sensations of being back in

01:26:14.090 --> 01:26:16.710
that trauma. And you're learning how to cope

01:26:16.710 --> 01:26:20.630
or some real skills. You're learning skills about

01:26:20.630 --> 01:26:24.569
how to manage the emotions and the feelings that

01:26:24.569 --> 01:26:27.010
are associated with that trauma. And so you can

01:26:27.010 --> 01:26:30.470
kind of rewrite the way that you process that

01:26:30.470 --> 01:26:34.029
and to rewrite that narrative. So it's very intense.

01:26:34.920 --> 01:26:37.920
You know, I've heard it described as pure hell

01:26:37.920 --> 01:26:41.720
to have to open up that can of worms and re -walk

01:26:41.720 --> 01:26:43.880
back through that. I mean, most of us who have

01:26:43.880 --> 01:26:45.899
trauma, what do you want to do? You want to box

01:26:45.899 --> 01:26:47.520
up and you never want to think about it again.

01:26:47.659 --> 01:26:49.319
You don't want to bring it right up to the forefront

01:26:49.319 --> 01:26:53.220
and work through it. But it can be a very effective

01:26:53.220 --> 01:26:57.939
means of treatment. One of the first terms we

01:26:57.939 --> 01:27:01.180
use is PTSD. And I actually started a page years

01:27:01.180 --> 01:27:03.739
ago called The Dark Side Project. And the very

01:27:03.739 --> 01:27:06.640
first video was, I sat there and I said, my name

01:27:06.640 --> 01:27:09.420
is James Gearing and I have PTSD. I don't have

01:27:09.420 --> 01:27:12.779
PTSD. What I actually have was certainly post

01:27:12.779 --> 01:27:16.779
-traumatic stress and then moral injury. No question.

01:27:16.800 --> 01:27:19.159
At that time, I was in a toxic organizational

01:27:19.159 --> 01:27:22.199
betrayal environment, death by a thousand cuts,

01:27:22.359 --> 01:27:24.579
but it wasn't PTSD. There wasn't an acute, I

01:27:24.579 --> 01:27:26.960
had numerous acute events, but they weren't.

01:27:27.180 --> 01:27:28.960
bothering me. I wasn't having flashbacks, wasn't

01:27:28.960 --> 01:27:31.260
having nightmares. Any of the things that I know

01:27:31.260 --> 01:27:33.819
are kind of indicative of that specific diagnosis.

01:27:34.399 --> 01:27:37.260
And I would argue that most of us, it's more

01:27:37.260 --> 01:27:40.060
on the moral injury side, still having an effect,

01:27:40.180 --> 01:27:42.239
anxiety, depression, you know, addiction, whatever

01:27:42.239 --> 01:27:45.220
the side effects are. So when you don't have

01:27:45.220 --> 01:27:47.840
a specific acute event, but it's a more, like

01:27:47.840 --> 01:27:50.380
I said, the kind of Jenga effect, death by a

01:27:50.380 --> 01:27:53.449
thousand cuts. Which modalities are you seeing

01:27:53.449 --> 01:27:56.170
work well for that kind of first responder or,

01:27:56.250 --> 01:28:00.670
you know, dispatcher, et cetera? Yes. Yeah. So,

01:28:00.670 --> 01:28:03.289
you know, as I mentioned, there's kind of these

01:28:03.289 --> 01:28:06.869
newer, although I'll say like something like

01:28:06.869 --> 01:28:09.470
cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT has been

01:28:09.470 --> 01:28:12.529
around for a very, very long time. It's very

01:28:12.529 --> 01:28:15.970
effective. It's very well tolerated. It's fairly

01:28:15.970 --> 01:28:20.720
easy to do. So, you know. Even if you're in an

01:28:20.720 --> 01:28:22.680
area that doesn't have a lot of clinicians with

01:28:22.680 --> 01:28:24.819
a lot of specializations, if you've got somebody

01:28:24.819 --> 01:28:28.359
that can do your garden variety, CBT, you're

01:28:28.359 --> 01:28:31.569
in. fairly okay hands, but they also have like

01:28:31.569 --> 01:28:34.270
specializations that they can tack on to that.

01:28:34.390 --> 01:28:37.010
There's one for suicidal thoughts. There's one

01:28:37.010 --> 01:28:40.369
for sleep disorders and sleep disruptions, which

01:28:40.369 --> 01:28:42.449
is a big deal. You know, finding somebody who

01:28:42.449 --> 01:28:44.350
can do those and help work with those in a first

01:28:44.350 --> 01:28:47.529
responder is important because you can be suffering

01:28:47.529 --> 01:28:50.170
from the anxiety symptoms stemming from some

01:28:50.170 --> 01:28:52.229
type of moral injury and it's really impacting

01:28:52.229 --> 01:28:54.850
your sleeping. And again, if you can get the

01:28:54.850 --> 01:28:56.989
biggest bang for the buck by helping that individual

01:28:56.989 --> 01:29:01.090
sleep better. It helps their brain do what it

01:29:01.090 --> 01:29:03.350
needs to do during that whole sleep process to

01:29:03.350 --> 01:29:07.909
process some of that stuff. There's a modality

01:29:07.909 --> 01:29:11.569
called CAMS out there that's really helpful with

01:29:11.569 --> 01:29:17.130
suicidal ideation. There's one called DBT that's

01:29:17.130 --> 01:29:19.329
actually a pretty good modality for some of these

01:29:19.329 --> 01:29:21.590
more challenging issues that first responders

01:29:21.590 --> 01:29:26.560
might present with. So it's really just... kind

01:29:26.560 --> 01:29:30.300
of a hodgepodge of different treatment modalities.

01:29:31.880 --> 01:29:34.840
What I think would be really cool is if we could

01:29:34.840 --> 01:29:38.300
package those in a way for clinicians, and we've

01:29:38.300 --> 01:29:40.319
started to do this a little bit, but if we could

01:29:40.319 --> 01:29:42.920
package them in a way to say, hey, if you're

01:29:42.920 --> 01:29:44.979
really interested in working with this population,

01:29:45.380 --> 01:29:48.420
here's the things that they're more likely to

01:29:48.420 --> 01:29:51.460
present you with, like the moral injury, those

01:29:51.460 --> 01:29:53.819
sorts of things. And if you want to work well

01:29:53.819 --> 01:29:55.960
with them, here's the skill set that you need

01:29:55.960 --> 01:29:59.920
to bring to the table. So I'm all for, and we're

01:29:59.920 --> 01:30:01.699
partners with the health and safety. collaborative

01:30:01.699 --> 01:30:05.380
on the clinician awareness training and the cultural

01:30:05.380 --> 01:30:07.520
competency, I think that's an incredibly important

01:30:07.520 --> 01:30:11.020
piece of it. But where I think there's still

01:30:11.020 --> 01:30:14.119
a lot of room for us to do some work is once

01:30:14.119 --> 01:30:17.960
we get these clinicians to be able to handle

01:30:17.960 --> 01:30:20.899
the nature of first responders when they come

01:30:20.899 --> 01:30:25.060
into the office, then knowing what approaches

01:30:25.060 --> 01:30:28.239
to apply with them is really a huge opportunity

01:30:28.239 --> 01:30:32.630
for us. This is, again, learning over several

01:30:32.630 --> 01:30:34.949
years now, but what I realized is this is kind

01:30:34.949 --> 01:30:39.369
of like you with CrossFit. Telling a first responder,

01:30:39.590 --> 01:30:41.550
hey, this is the thing. And I've had a couple

01:30:41.550 --> 01:30:44.130
of guests on that came on and said, this works

01:30:44.130 --> 01:30:46.630
for everyone. And the moment they said that,

01:30:46.670 --> 01:30:49.229
in my mind, I'm not rude, I was like, well, that's

01:30:49.229 --> 01:30:51.229
absolute bullshit because nothing works for everyone.

01:30:52.029 --> 01:30:54.210
There's all these different sports and workout

01:30:54.210 --> 01:30:56.930
modalities. And it was CrossFit that you chose.

01:30:57.430 --> 01:31:00.430
But you knew that at the time there was everything

01:31:00.430 --> 01:31:03.449
from bodybuilding to triathlons to all the things.

01:31:03.510 --> 01:31:05.050
And you went, okay, I'm going to try running.

01:31:05.170 --> 01:31:07.649
I'm not a huge fan. Okay, CrossFit. Oh, I really

01:31:07.649 --> 01:31:09.449
like this now. Oh, Olympic lifting. That's great.

01:31:09.529 --> 01:31:12.609
Oh, orange theory. And as you grow and as you

01:31:12.609 --> 01:31:16.409
change and as you mature, it shifts a bit. Now

01:31:16.409 --> 01:31:20.319
understanding how large the toolbox is. For a

01:31:20.319 --> 01:31:22.819
first responder, some might be very mainstream,

01:31:23.060 --> 01:31:26.060
some might be more, you know, ayahuasca, canine

01:31:26.060 --> 01:31:29.119
therapy, whatever the things are. I think what

01:31:29.119 --> 01:31:31.020
really is empowering is to tell someone, look,

01:31:31.180 --> 01:31:33.779
you don't know exactly what's going to work for

01:31:33.779 --> 01:31:36.380
you. And that is OK. Certainly, let's head you

01:31:36.380 --> 01:31:38.180
towards the right kind of people that at least

01:31:38.180 --> 01:31:40.279
know what they're doing. Let's not make the EAP

01:31:40.279 --> 01:31:43.020
Russian roulette problem. Right. But once you

01:31:43.020 --> 01:31:48.130
get in there, you know, if, you know. the EMDR

01:31:48.130 --> 01:31:50.189
doesn't work for you. Okay. Well, maybe you didn't

01:31:50.189 --> 01:31:52.729
have an acute event. Maybe it is that death by

01:31:52.729 --> 01:31:55.369
a thousand cuts and you need more of a, you know,

01:31:55.369 --> 01:31:57.270
maybe it's a, it's a retreat like struggle. Well,

01:31:57.310 --> 01:32:00.029
maybe it's equine therapy. I mean, all these

01:32:00.029 --> 01:32:02.390
different things, but I think again, that message

01:32:02.390 --> 01:32:04.670
isn't out there. It's like, well, it's drugs

01:32:04.670 --> 01:32:07.710
or talk therapy and maybe EMDR and that's it.

01:32:08.090 --> 01:32:12.119
But that's, you know, a tiny margin of the two

01:32:12.119 --> 01:32:14.859
extremes. And I think empowering people, even

01:32:14.859 --> 01:32:16.739
though some might still be frowned upon, if you're

01:32:16.739 --> 01:32:19.979
looking at the psychedelics, it saved a lot of

01:32:19.979 --> 01:32:22.340
lives. It just has. So whether it's there in

01:32:22.340 --> 01:32:24.899
hard facts or whether it's more observational,

01:32:25.020 --> 01:32:28.279
it still saves a lot of lives. So I think showing

01:32:28.279 --> 01:32:31.060
the diverse spectrum of treatments that are out

01:32:31.060 --> 01:32:33.319
there and really getting someone excited, saying,

01:32:33.420 --> 01:32:35.479
look, there is hope because I'm not telling you

01:32:35.479 --> 01:32:37.439
what to do. And if this doesn't work, you've

01:32:37.439 --> 01:32:40.930
got... 50 other things to try. I think that would

01:32:40.930 --> 01:32:43.029
inspire people rather than well, I went and spoke

01:32:43.029 --> 01:32:44.970
to a counselor, it didn't work. I'm a piece of

01:32:44.970 --> 01:32:48.710
shit. I'm out of it. Yeah, absolutely. It's,

01:32:48.710 --> 01:32:51.569
it's a bit of an art and a science. You know,

01:32:51.590 --> 01:32:55.350
it truly is a combination of both. And I actually

01:32:55.350 --> 01:32:58.310
so I just went and did a talk, Dina invited me

01:32:58.310 --> 01:33:01.550
to come and do a presentation at an awesome conference

01:33:01.550 --> 01:33:04.189
that they put on in Nashville here recently.

01:33:04.449 --> 01:33:09.359
And the topic that I that i did for that conference

01:33:09.359 --> 01:33:12.560
was um the art of the match was the name of it

01:33:12.560 --> 01:33:14.359
and it was about you know matching a clinician

01:33:14.359 --> 01:33:17.760
with a first responder and um you know how there's

01:33:17.760 --> 01:33:19.979
just as you were describing there's so much that

01:33:19.979 --> 01:33:23.020
goes into it and and cultural or occupational

01:33:23.020 --> 01:33:27.020
competency is just one one small piece but the

01:33:27.020 --> 01:33:31.140
biggest takeaway um that i kind of went into

01:33:31.140 --> 01:33:34.939
with this this thing is that you know All of

01:33:34.939 --> 01:33:38.199
us have to take a level of personal responsibility

01:33:38.199 --> 01:33:41.859
for our mental health. And just like we do with

01:33:41.859 --> 01:33:46.960
our physical health, we are responsible for being

01:33:46.960 --> 01:33:50.560
our own self -advocate. And that's really hard

01:33:50.560 --> 01:33:52.720
to do, especially when you're struggling with

01:33:52.720 --> 01:33:56.750
something like. clinical depression or some of

01:33:56.750 --> 01:33:58.970
these anxiety disorders. It's really hard, like

01:33:58.970 --> 01:34:00.569
you said, when you feel like, hey, I'm a piece

01:34:00.569 --> 01:34:03.770
of shit. I don't deserve to even go to counseling

01:34:03.770 --> 01:34:06.550
because I'm a terrible person or some of these

01:34:06.550 --> 01:34:09.930
other crazy things that end up happening in our

01:34:09.930 --> 01:34:11.829
brains when we're struggling with things like

01:34:11.829 --> 01:34:16.710
that. But it's what I really, the message I'm

01:34:16.710 --> 01:34:20.470
trying to drive home now with this sort of accountability

01:34:20.470 --> 01:34:25.460
piece. is that you might have to try more than

01:34:25.460 --> 01:34:29.359
one clinician or two clinicians. And yes, we

01:34:29.359 --> 01:34:32.069
know that. Many first responders are not going

01:34:32.069 --> 01:34:33.409
to do that. They're going to say, I'm going to

01:34:33.409 --> 01:34:35.649
try this once. And if it's not a good fit, then

01:34:35.649 --> 01:34:37.510
I'm not going back. I'm not going to do that.

01:34:37.609 --> 01:34:39.649
But I want to start getting the message out there

01:34:39.649 --> 01:34:42.710
that you might need to consider doing that. You

01:34:42.710 --> 01:34:45.390
might need to consider trying more than once.

01:34:45.529 --> 01:34:48.609
And you're doing yourself potentially a disservice

01:34:48.609 --> 01:34:51.470
if you're not willing to try to find that next

01:34:51.470 --> 01:34:55.750
person. But I get it. I mean, you know, it can

01:34:55.750 --> 01:34:58.489
be incredibly defeating to be struggling with

01:34:58.489 --> 01:35:01.659
mental health and to go down a list or to see

01:35:01.659 --> 01:35:05.180
two providers or five providers and just they

01:35:05.180 --> 01:35:08.300
all are they're terrible and there's some pretty

01:35:08.300 --> 01:35:10.399
terrible mental health providers out there unfortunately

01:35:10.399 --> 01:35:12.739
there's way more better ones but they're just

01:35:12.739 --> 01:35:14.960
like any profession there's some not so good

01:35:14.960 --> 01:35:19.500
ones either and it's just so worth it and the

01:35:19.500 --> 01:35:22.880
benefits are so tremendous when you find that

01:35:22.880 --> 01:35:25.399
that fit and when you find that person that's

01:35:25.399 --> 01:35:27.659
going to be the one that's the right fit for

01:35:27.659 --> 01:35:32.319
you absolutely Well, I saw on your list of all

01:35:32.319 --> 01:35:34.159
the people you've got under the Second Alarm

01:35:34.159 --> 01:35:36.260
Project that there were several attached to the

01:35:36.260 --> 01:35:38.779
Struggle Well program. That's another program

01:35:38.779 --> 01:35:41.260
I've heard a lot of great things about. So why

01:35:41.260 --> 01:35:43.979
did you kind of lean towards that group? And

01:35:43.979 --> 01:35:46.800
again, talk to me about the types of outcomes

01:35:46.800 --> 01:35:52.640
or treatments that they're offering. You know,

01:35:52.640 --> 01:35:56.079
I've had the fortunate opportunity to vet a lot

01:35:56.079 --> 01:35:58.939
of different resiliency programs and organizations

01:35:58.939 --> 01:36:03.279
and take a lot of classes. And whenever I take

01:36:03.279 --> 01:36:05.859
one, I'm always kind of coming from the perspective

01:36:05.859 --> 01:36:08.899
of, you know, is this something that we would

01:36:08.899 --> 01:36:11.699
want to incorporate into what we do? And if so,

01:36:11.779 --> 01:36:13.680
how would we do it? Because we're always on the

01:36:13.680 --> 01:36:16.500
lookout for these educational and training opportunities

01:36:16.500 --> 01:36:19.880
that we might be able to scale up and get out

01:36:19.880 --> 01:36:23.859
there. on a broader level. And so I just had

01:36:23.859 --> 01:36:27.180
taken, you know, a lot of these classes and some

01:36:27.180 --> 01:36:30.199
of them were really good, but it just wasn't

01:36:30.199 --> 01:36:32.520
anything that, that clicked for me as saying,

01:36:32.600 --> 01:36:36.039
wow, that's, that's the thing. And I think it

01:36:36.039 --> 01:36:42.420
was in 2022, 2021 or 22. And some of my colleagues

01:36:42.420 --> 01:36:44.939
invited me down to Coral Springs where they were

01:36:44.939 --> 01:36:47.460
having this struggle while class to come down

01:36:47.460 --> 01:36:49.199
and participate in this class. So I said, OK,

01:36:49.279 --> 01:36:51.399
this sounds great. I looked into it and looked

01:36:51.399 --> 01:36:53.739
it up and it looks great. And so I went down

01:36:53.739 --> 01:36:55.619
and participated. And I'm telling you, I was

01:36:55.619 --> 01:36:58.460
like an hour into it and I had drank the Kool

01:36:58.460 --> 01:37:01.859
-Aid. I mean, it was fantastic. It was just and

01:37:01.859 --> 01:37:05.979
I think. For me, it was like, what hat do I have

01:37:05.979 --> 01:37:08.119
on here now that I'm sitting in this class? Is

01:37:08.119 --> 01:37:12.260
it my Second Alarm Project hat? Is it my First

01:37:12.260 --> 01:37:14.819
Responder Spouse hat? Or is it my Kelly O'Dare

01:37:14.819 --> 01:37:16.600
hat? And then I realized, I'm like, I've got

01:37:16.600 --> 01:37:18.600
all three of these hats on, and it's speaking

01:37:18.600 --> 01:37:20.880
to all three of these hats. Not only is this

01:37:20.880 --> 01:37:24.199
speaking to me about what I might want to bring

01:37:24.199 --> 01:37:26.439
into an element of this work that we're doing,

01:37:26.500 --> 01:37:29.279
but this is... impacting me personally. These

01:37:29.279 --> 01:37:31.699
are things I want to take away and implement

01:37:31.699 --> 01:37:35.039
and practice in my own life. And so just sitting

01:37:35.039 --> 01:37:37.600
through that, I think it was a two -day class

01:37:37.600 --> 01:37:43.220
at that time, realizing how good the material

01:37:43.220 --> 01:37:48.199
was and it was impactful and how it was resonating

01:37:48.199 --> 01:37:51.800
with the vast majority of the other 25 people

01:37:51.800 --> 01:37:54.909
that were in the room with me. reached out to

01:37:54.909 --> 01:37:57.350
them right away and just started having conversations.

01:37:57.569 --> 01:38:00.630
And I really liked that it's based on, as you

01:38:00.630 --> 01:38:02.329
mentioned, the science of post -traumatic growth,

01:38:02.609 --> 01:38:06.090
Dr. Tedeschi's work. So it had this element of

01:38:06.090 --> 01:38:08.310
being evidence -informed or evidence -based,

01:38:08.350 --> 01:38:13.069
which is really important to me as well. But

01:38:13.069 --> 01:38:17.029
I think, you know, looking at it from the, like

01:38:17.029 --> 01:38:19.229
you mentioned, the Kintsugi, I think is how you

01:38:19.229 --> 01:38:22.220
say the element of the cracked. bowl and the

01:38:22.220 --> 01:38:25.300
the the cracks are then filled in with gold and

01:38:25.300 --> 01:38:31.279
being able to not just bounce back but bounce

01:38:31.279 --> 01:38:34.220
back even stronger than you were before or better

01:38:34.220 --> 01:38:36.920
than you were before was was something that definitely

01:38:36.920 --> 01:38:39.640
spoke to me yeah i mean this is this has just

01:38:39.640 --> 01:38:42.760
come out from all these conversations you know

01:38:42.760 --> 01:38:45.720
when you have gone through this crucible and

01:38:45.720 --> 01:38:49.039
you come out the other end just to take one element

01:38:49.039 --> 01:38:51.689
the number of people that said Then people started

01:38:51.689 --> 01:38:54.050
coming out of the woodwork saying, hey, I'm going

01:38:54.050 --> 01:38:56.770
through it too. So just as a beacon of light,

01:38:56.949 --> 01:39:00.550
you are now a better person. But then you start

01:39:00.550 --> 01:39:03.390
tying in the empathy that you created because

01:39:03.390 --> 01:39:05.750
you've been in that dark place. And then your

01:39:05.750 --> 01:39:09.930
resilience, because now instead of having the

01:39:09.930 --> 01:39:12.449
bucket overflowing or the bucket empty or whatever

01:39:12.449 --> 01:39:14.829
you want to use your analogy, now you're kind

01:39:14.829 --> 01:39:16.649
of back in a good place where you can actually

01:39:16.649 --> 01:39:20.470
process these calls again. So that is exciting.

01:39:20.970 --> 01:39:24.210
to know that the james 2 .0 or kelly 2 .0 is

01:39:24.210 --> 01:39:27.590
going to be even better than the one before you

01:39:27.590 --> 01:39:30.489
started struggling is the message i think that

01:39:30.489 --> 01:39:32.630
we should be telling people it's not the and

01:39:32.630 --> 01:39:34.489
i always point in this and i know there are some

01:39:34.489 --> 01:39:37.489
anomalies that just cannot get past it but the

01:39:37.489 --> 01:39:39.449
kind of poster child for the first responder

01:39:39.449 --> 01:39:42.529
with ptsd is a dude with a dog that goes around

01:39:42.529 --> 01:39:44.329
talking about how sad he is and he lives with

01:39:44.329 --> 01:39:47.149
his dog that's not what we should be saying we

01:39:47.149 --> 01:39:49.430
should be saying you know the people that are

01:39:49.430 --> 01:39:51.979
out there saying Now I get to help other people

01:39:51.979 --> 01:39:53.680
with my story. And this is a lot of people that

01:39:53.680 --> 01:39:55.720
have been on the show. And again, like I said,

01:39:55.739 --> 01:39:58.960
I'm not trying to belittle people that just can't

01:39:58.960 --> 01:40:01.039
get past that element. But I just think they

01:40:01.039 --> 01:40:05.699
haven't found the right tools yet. Maybe MDMA

01:40:05.699 --> 01:40:08.439
-led psychotherapy is the thing that you're missing.

01:40:08.560 --> 01:40:11.479
Or maybe it's a dive retreat. Or maybe it's the

01:40:11.479 --> 01:40:14.359
right partner. Who knows what it is? But I think

01:40:14.359 --> 01:40:17.560
seeing, like you said, the other side, that post

01:40:17.560 --> 01:40:21.739
-traumatic growth. that makes it exciting. It

01:40:21.739 --> 01:40:23.800
makes it worth the fight. And we are fighters.

01:40:24.359 --> 01:40:26.840
But if everyone that you see is kind of like,

01:40:26.899 --> 01:40:28.899
well, you know, it's all sad and doom and gloom.

01:40:29.039 --> 01:40:31.659
How is that motivating you to find the courage

01:40:31.659 --> 01:40:35.539
to push through? Yeah, absolutely. And I, you

01:40:35.539 --> 01:40:39.399
know, if you know who Jeff Orange is, you know,

01:40:39.399 --> 01:40:41.699
that's something that we talk about a lot is

01:40:41.699 --> 01:40:44.289
that. we're kind of at a point in this whole

01:40:44.289 --> 01:40:48.189
movement where we're moving past awareness. We're

01:40:48.189 --> 01:40:52.949
moving past the time or the phase where it's

01:40:52.949 --> 01:40:56.430
important to, you know, just hear the stories

01:40:56.430 --> 01:41:00.600
for just that, you know. coming out of the dark

01:41:00.600 --> 01:41:03.340
ages where people are just starting to talk about

01:41:03.340 --> 01:41:05.420
it and sharing their stories and sharing their

01:41:05.420 --> 01:41:08.140
trauma. And that's still important. And I don't

01:41:08.140 --> 01:41:10.939
want to diminish the value of people's stories.

01:41:11.079 --> 01:41:13.439
And because I think at some level, hearing somebody

01:41:13.439 --> 01:41:17.199
else's story oftentimes gives you sort of permission

01:41:17.199 --> 01:41:19.420
to be able to tell your own if and when you're

01:41:19.420 --> 01:41:23.000
ready. And that's critical. But in doing this

01:41:23.000 --> 01:41:24.960
work, we kind of are at a point where we've got

01:41:24.960 --> 01:41:27.819
to move away from just this basic awareness.

01:41:30.339 --> 01:41:33.800
into, you know, the next phase of the mental

01:41:33.800 --> 01:41:35.979
wellness with first responders? And what does

01:41:35.979 --> 01:41:38.779
that really look like? What does the next phase,

01:41:38.859 --> 01:41:41.520
the next step, the next innovations, how are

01:41:41.520 --> 01:41:44.579
we going to continue to push this forward even

01:41:44.579 --> 01:41:47.439
more? And I think, you know, post -traumatic

01:41:47.439 --> 01:41:50.300
growth is a big part of that, but also looking

01:41:50.300 --> 01:41:53.579
at some of the things that we're doing with like

01:41:53.579 --> 01:41:59.319
Pasco County, with these elements that are not

01:41:59.319 --> 01:42:01.619
new. It certainly isn't new science. You know,

01:42:01.680 --> 01:42:04.060
breathing and breath work's been around for what,

01:42:04.119 --> 01:42:07.359
like, well, since the beginning of life. But,

01:42:07.399 --> 01:42:09.560
you know, if you look back into ancient times,

01:42:09.779 --> 01:42:15.060
right, they're using breath to moderate and mediate

01:42:15.060 --> 01:42:18.659
what they're going through in their lives. So

01:42:18.659 --> 01:42:23.569
bringing those elements into how can we send

01:42:23.569 --> 01:42:27.029
the message that mental wellness is a part of

01:42:27.029 --> 01:42:29.350
your operational readiness to be able to do this

01:42:29.350 --> 01:42:31.609
job and to be able to live and have a fulfilling

01:42:31.609 --> 01:42:35.189
life. Absolutely. I want to hit one more area

01:42:35.189 --> 01:42:36.510
and then we'll go to some closing questions.

01:42:36.649 --> 01:42:39.489
But you mentioned earlier about educating at

01:42:39.489 --> 01:42:43.069
the chief level as well. I think, excuse me,

01:42:43.090 --> 01:42:44.930
another elephant in the room, or we'll call it

01:42:44.930 --> 01:42:47.649
a different animal, a donkey in the room, is

01:42:47.649 --> 01:42:50.210
also organizational stress, organizational betrayal.

01:42:50.729 --> 01:42:53.850
and for example a toxic culture where you're

01:42:53.850 --> 01:42:55.989
belittled if you talk about mental health or

01:42:55.989 --> 01:42:58.489
that you're getting forced into mandatory overtime

01:42:58.489 --> 01:43:01.649
week in week out you're exhausted you never get

01:43:01.649 --> 01:43:04.189
to go to home your family and that person's going

01:43:04.189 --> 01:43:07.050
home at five o 'clock you know seemingly uninterested

01:43:07.050 --> 01:43:09.050
in any sort of change it's all the same kind

01:43:09.050 --> 01:43:11.909
of thing so talk to me about what you've observed

01:43:11.909 --> 01:43:15.569
as far as the impact of organizational health

01:43:15.569 --> 01:43:19.609
or unhealth on mental health, and then what are

01:43:19.609 --> 01:43:21.609
the tools you're bringing to these organizations

01:43:21.609 --> 01:43:25.970
to try and turn that around? So I'm really glad

01:43:25.970 --> 01:43:27.909
that you asked that question because another

01:43:27.909 --> 01:43:30.609
bit of research that we're doing that I'm super

01:43:30.609 --> 01:43:34.470
excited about is looking at some elements of

01:43:34.470 --> 01:43:37.149
psychological safety in first responder organizations.

01:43:38.050 --> 01:43:41.630
And so we've done a recent survey where we've

01:43:41.630 --> 01:43:45.470
looked at psychological safety. We've looked

01:43:45.470 --> 01:43:49.310
at workplace incivility. and institutional and

01:43:49.310 --> 01:43:51.869
administrative betrayal, the correlation between

01:43:51.869 --> 01:43:57.229
those concepts and things like PTSD and anxiety

01:43:57.229 --> 01:44:02.989
and depression. And so I got this idea to look

01:44:02.989 --> 01:44:05.649
at this based on the work, some of the work of

01:44:05.649 --> 01:44:10.149
Dr. Thomas Joyner, who's a great scholar in suicide,

01:44:10.289 --> 01:44:14.210
but he's done a couple of studies that have shown

01:44:14.210 --> 01:44:19.340
that for some first responders who've experienced

01:44:19.340 --> 01:44:22.600
traumatic events it's not necessarily experiencing

01:44:22.600 --> 01:44:26.039
the trauma itself that has led to the development

01:44:26.039 --> 01:44:29.939
of ptsd symptoms it is the organization's response

01:44:29.939 --> 01:44:35.199
to that person and to that trauma and so the

01:44:35.199 --> 01:44:36.880
first time i read that it was like a light bulb

01:44:36.880 --> 01:44:38.899
went off in my head because i was like wow we

01:44:38.899 --> 01:44:42.420
can't We can't change or we can't influence whether

01:44:42.420 --> 01:44:43.979
or not a first responder is going to have an

01:44:43.979 --> 01:44:46.319
exposure to trauma. It's just inherent in the

01:44:46.319 --> 01:44:49.319
nature of your work. But we can change how these

01:44:49.319 --> 01:44:53.260
organizations are responding to these things.

01:44:53.520 --> 01:44:55.420
So I was like, that's where we've got to go.

01:44:55.500 --> 01:44:57.920
If we're going to manipulate variables, let's

01:44:57.920 --> 01:45:00.779
change and control what we can. And we can change

01:45:00.779 --> 01:45:04.899
the culture. It's not an easy lift, but we can

01:45:04.899 --> 01:45:09.220
do it. So that was kind of where I got the idea

01:45:09.220 --> 01:45:11.859
to look at this. And so we looked at those three

01:45:11.859 --> 01:45:15.760
things and we looked at them relative to PTSD,

01:45:16.119 --> 01:45:21.100
depression, blanking off the top of my head,

01:45:21.100 --> 01:45:23.060
the different elements that we looked at. But

01:45:23.060 --> 01:45:28.199
what was really surprising and exciting was that

01:45:28.199 --> 01:45:31.159
across the board for everything that we examined,

01:45:31.260 --> 01:45:32.760
that we looked at, and we're hoping to publish

01:45:32.760 --> 01:45:36.060
this study soon. if we can get the paper written,

01:45:36.180 --> 01:45:40.180
finished writing the paper, across the board,

01:45:40.300 --> 01:45:46.699
the more likely you were to be in what was considered

01:45:46.699 --> 01:45:50.210
a psychologically unsafe. environment in your

01:45:50.210 --> 01:45:52.890
workplace, the more likely you were to have mental

01:45:52.890 --> 01:45:55.949
health concerns like depression, anxiety, PTSD.

01:45:56.350 --> 01:45:59.010
The same thing with workplace incivility. If

01:45:59.010 --> 01:46:00.989
you were more likely to experience workplace

01:46:00.989 --> 01:46:03.909
incivility, you were more likely to be struggling

01:46:03.909 --> 01:46:07.050
with those concerns. And the same thing with

01:46:07.050 --> 01:46:10.210
administrative or institutional betrayal. The

01:46:10.210 --> 01:46:12.390
more likely you were to have experienced those

01:46:12.390 --> 01:46:14.729
things on the job, the more likely you were to

01:46:14.729 --> 01:46:18.229
experience mental health issues. So, of course,

01:46:18.369 --> 01:46:22.369
correlation never establishes causality. We don't

01:46:22.369 --> 01:46:24.289
know that it's causing these things. But just

01:46:24.289 --> 01:46:27.470
to see these patterns in the data over and over

01:46:27.470 --> 01:46:30.949
again, and we had a decent sample size. This

01:46:30.949 --> 01:46:34.869
was probably 1 ,300, 1 ,500 first responders

01:46:34.869 --> 01:46:38.689
who participated in the study. So to just see

01:46:38.689 --> 01:46:41.789
that across the board, those same patterns, was

01:46:41.789 --> 01:46:45.350
really exciting. That's so good. I've got to

01:46:45.350 --> 01:46:48.210
ask that question because that's amazing. The

01:46:48.210 --> 01:46:53.250
stance that I have is, as you mentioned, you

01:46:53.250 --> 01:46:54.970
don't know if you're going to go on a rolled

01:46:54.970 --> 01:46:58.829
ankle or four kids killed in the fire like your

01:46:58.829 --> 01:47:01.909
husband. But what we can do is mitigate everything

01:47:01.909 --> 01:47:05.590
else. We can change fitness standards. We can

01:47:05.590 --> 01:47:08.649
change the work week. We can change the staffing

01:47:08.649 --> 01:47:10.510
where we're fully staffed because we're actually

01:47:10.510 --> 01:47:12.590
taking care of people. And we can change the

01:47:12.590 --> 01:47:15.319
culture. We can change how people respond because

01:47:15.319 --> 01:47:17.199
it's where how you choose your leaders and what

01:47:17.199 --> 01:47:18.920
you tolerate and what you don't tolerate in that

01:47:18.920 --> 01:47:21.199
culture and the resources that are available

01:47:21.199 --> 01:47:23.979
and the vulnerability and courage of those leaders

01:47:23.979 --> 01:47:26.659
to say, look, I go get help too. Actually, I've

01:47:26.659 --> 01:47:29.439
got one of the people told me recently their

01:47:29.439 --> 01:47:31.840
chief has it in like the calendar that everyone

01:47:31.840 --> 01:47:34.539
can see. Chiefs go into counseling today, that

01:47:34.539 --> 01:47:38.439
kind of thing. So to me, this is where we have

01:47:38.439 --> 01:47:41.500
to really make the biggest push forward is like,

01:47:41.520 --> 01:47:44.810
what can we control? We can control all those.

01:47:44.869 --> 01:47:47.329
If we can control all those, you just made a

01:47:47.329 --> 01:47:50.329
massive, massive impact. If we put PE programs

01:47:50.329 --> 01:47:52.470
in schools, got rid of the soda machines and

01:47:52.470 --> 01:47:55.729
served healthy food and put recess back as well.

01:47:56.300 --> 01:47:58.699
We would have healthier children. We can't climb

01:47:58.699 --> 01:48:00.939
inside the child's brain and move their arms

01:48:00.939 --> 01:48:02.899
and legs. But I guarantee you, you change the

01:48:02.899 --> 01:48:04.680
environment, you're going to make a massive impact

01:48:04.680 --> 01:48:07.800
on childhood obesity and diabetes. It's no different

01:48:07.800 --> 01:48:10.600
with this. So it's so great to hear there are

01:48:10.600 --> 01:48:12.979
actually some, you know, some numbers that we

01:48:12.979 --> 01:48:14.960
can point to to say, of course, again, it makes

01:48:14.960 --> 01:48:17.979
sense. But here are studies that back it up as

01:48:17.979 --> 01:48:21.800
well. Yeah, absolutely. And that's some of the

01:48:21.800 --> 01:48:24.159
work that Dina and her crew are doing. They're

01:48:24.159 --> 01:48:27.520
looking at more of the structural level interventions

01:48:27.520 --> 01:48:30.680
to help with suicide, to help prevent suicide.

01:48:30.760 --> 01:48:33.800
Instead of placing the onus completely on the

01:48:33.800 --> 01:48:38.100
individual, what can we do structurally or broad

01:48:38.100 --> 01:48:41.119
scale to make these changes to help make it so

01:48:41.119 --> 01:48:44.619
that we're creating a culture that prevents these

01:48:44.619 --> 01:48:47.489
things? Yeah, exactly. Like I said, I mean, just

01:48:47.489 --> 01:48:50.369
the word suicide in Florida. I mean, we can think

01:48:50.369 --> 01:48:52.529
of, you know, tens and tens and tens of names

01:48:52.529 --> 01:48:56.210
just this year. The way we do it right now isn't

01:48:56.210 --> 01:48:58.569
working. The way, you know, drug prohibition

01:48:58.569 --> 01:49:00.170
isn't working. I mean, the things that we've

01:49:00.170 --> 01:49:02.010
just got to draw a line in the sand and say enough

01:49:02.010 --> 01:49:04.609
is enough. You know, we have to do things differently.

01:49:04.789 --> 01:49:07.609
So that being said, I want to kind of round off

01:49:07.609 --> 01:49:09.189
and go to some closing questions and be mindful

01:49:09.189 --> 01:49:12.210
of your time. The first one I love to ask, is

01:49:12.210 --> 01:49:14.590
there a book or other books that you love to

01:49:14.590 --> 01:49:16.920
recommend? It can be related to our discussion

01:49:16.920 --> 01:49:21.600
today or completely unrelated. Well, so I would

01:49:21.600 --> 01:49:26.239
say, you know, one of my favorite fiction books

01:49:26.239 --> 01:49:29.960
that I read a while ago, I'll start with fiction,

01:49:30.060 --> 01:49:32.920
is The Time Traveler's Wife. So I always recommend

01:49:32.920 --> 01:49:35.720
that one when anybody recommends. But as far

01:49:35.720 --> 01:49:39.640
as content related, and I'll just say the reason

01:49:39.640 --> 01:49:42.119
I like that, did you ever watch the show Quantum

01:49:42.119 --> 01:49:44.159
Leap? I did, yeah. I used to love that show.

01:49:45.039 --> 01:49:47.760
I don't know why, but people ask me, what's your

01:49:47.760 --> 01:49:50.279
favorite TV show of all time? It was Quantum

01:49:50.279 --> 01:49:53.260
Leap, man. I just loved that show. It was incredible.

01:49:53.600 --> 01:49:57.680
So I think that's why I like that book. But I

01:49:57.680 --> 01:50:00.539
think if we're talking about books related to

01:50:00.539 --> 01:50:08.939
the work, Atomic Habits is a good one. I'm actually

01:50:08.939 --> 01:50:12.060
thinking off the top of my head what else I would

01:50:12.060 --> 01:50:15.569
recommend. Is there a specific... like problem

01:50:15.569 --> 01:50:18.630
or concern that... Any book, could be a comic.

01:50:19.750 --> 01:50:23.229
Yeah, a graphic novel. We actually, so we're

01:50:23.229 --> 01:50:27.890
doing some work right now with programs for families.

01:50:29.000 --> 01:50:31.319
And we've got some neat stuff that we're putting

01:50:31.319 --> 01:50:34.319
out. We're putting out a coloring book. And we

01:50:34.319 --> 01:50:36.960
didn't have enough time to get to the graphic

01:50:36.960 --> 01:50:38.920
novel idea, but we were thinking about doing

01:50:38.920 --> 01:50:41.319
a graphic novel as well, like for the older kids,

01:50:41.439 --> 01:50:43.039
because the coloring book would be good for the

01:50:43.039 --> 01:50:45.180
younger kids, but we wanted to do a graphic novel

01:50:45.180 --> 01:50:49.600
for the older kids. So I'm blanking on any other

01:50:49.600 --> 01:50:52.079
books to recommend right now. No, no problem

01:50:52.079 --> 01:50:54.199
at all. You gave me several. What about films

01:50:54.199 --> 01:50:58.359
and documentaries? films and documentaries um

01:50:58.359 --> 01:51:02.539
are we talking about for the the topic or just

01:51:02.539 --> 01:51:07.520
things that i like yeah anything at all um so

01:51:07.520 --> 01:51:10.859
i think obviously you know the the well i don't

01:51:10.859 --> 01:51:13.159
i guess it's not really i'm not sure if it's

01:51:13.159 --> 01:51:15.300
considered a documentary or more of a film but

01:51:15.300 --> 01:51:18.560
i think in thinking back one of them that um

01:51:18.560 --> 01:51:23.739
really sticks out to me and influenced was schindler's

01:51:23.739 --> 01:51:27.850
list That was something that was very moving.

01:51:27.949 --> 01:51:31.149
And I was, I mean, relatively young. I think

01:51:31.149 --> 01:51:33.649
I was a teenager when I came that out, when that

01:51:33.649 --> 01:51:37.310
came out. I don't, to be honest, I don't watch

01:51:37.310 --> 01:51:41.689
a ton of movies. Brandon, my husband, he's a

01:51:41.689 --> 01:51:44.069
huge movie buff and he goes to the movies a lot

01:51:44.069 --> 01:51:48.210
and he usually has to go alone. Or if he can

01:51:48.210 --> 01:51:50.829
convince our now 18 -year -old son to go with

01:51:50.829 --> 01:51:54.770
him, he'll go. I'm trying to think of like the

01:51:54.770 --> 01:51:57.369
last time I saw a movie in the movie theater

01:51:57.369 --> 01:52:01.229
was probably this is really going to tell you

01:52:01.229 --> 01:52:03.729
how long it's been like Frozen, the first one

01:52:03.729 --> 01:52:06.590
with my son. So that's how long it's been since

01:52:06.590 --> 01:52:08.810
I've actually seen a movie in the movie theater.

01:52:09.430 --> 01:52:12.789
I just saw a film called The Life of Chuck. And

01:52:12.789 --> 01:52:14.210
it's really interesting. It was the guy that

01:52:14.210 --> 01:52:18.090
did the fall of the house of Usher, which I just

01:52:18.090 --> 01:52:21.270
finished watching that too. And he was formerly

01:52:21.270 --> 01:52:24.930
a horror director. And now that one is kind of

01:52:24.930 --> 01:52:28.729
pseudo, but it's a very human story. And then

01:52:28.729 --> 01:52:32.090
The Life of Chuck is an extremely beautiful human

01:52:32.090 --> 01:52:34.829
story. So if you haven't seen one, you want something

01:52:34.829 --> 01:52:36.750
completely different that's profound that will

01:52:36.750 --> 01:52:39.050
leave you thinking. And it wasn't even in the

01:52:39.050 --> 01:52:40.550
main theater here. It has to go to one of the

01:52:40.550 --> 01:52:42.729
other theaters, but really, really good film.

01:52:42.810 --> 01:52:44.550
Totally different than anything you would have

01:52:44.550 --> 01:52:47.340
seen before. Yeah, that's a good recommendation.

01:52:47.520 --> 01:52:50.420
I might take you up on that. It's like the same

01:52:50.420 --> 01:52:52.720
thing with I think it's with with reading. I

01:52:52.720 --> 01:52:55.020
don't do a lot of leisure reading just because

01:52:55.020 --> 01:52:59.180
I do so much reading for for work. It's like

01:52:59.180 --> 01:53:02.140
when I'm not, you know, reading for work, I'm

01:53:02.140 --> 01:53:04.880
doing other things. So I just don't read a lot

01:53:04.880 --> 01:53:08.020
outside of work. I used to read it, try and read

01:53:08.020 --> 01:53:11.869
every guest's book. And it just got too much

01:53:11.869 --> 01:53:13.590
because i might do three episodes a week now

01:53:13.590 --> 01:53:16.149
so it's like now yeah you know i'll i'll try

01:53:16.149 --> 01:53:18.109
and dip into it a little bit or scan through

01:53:18.109 --> 01:53:20.050
or you know occasionally i'll read the whole

01:53:20.050 --> 01:53:21.810
thing but yeah same thing when you when you do

01:53:21.810 --> 01:53:23.649
it over and over again after a while it kind

01:53:23.649 --> 01:53:26.710
of turns you off so yeah and i think too you

01:53:26.710 --> 01:53:29.170
know like as far as the the big name like dina's

01:53:29.170 --> 01:53:31.890
book is out and of course you know travis house

01:53:31.890 --> 01:53:35.609
create your own light his his book um taking

01:53:35.609 --> 01:53:39.380
off the cape by um pat kenny Chief Kenny, he's

01:53:39.380 --> 01:53:42.060
wonderful, by the way, too. He just came and

01:53:42.060 --> 01:53:44.659
did our summit for us as our keynote, and he

01:53:44.659 --> 01:53:49.260
was amazing. There's a lot of good reads out

01:53:49.260 --> 01:53:51.899
there, I think, on this topic and even more that

01:53:51.899 --> 01:53:55.000
are coming down the pipes. It's definitely a

01:53:55.000 --> 01:53:57.119
genre that I think has improved over the last

01:53:57.119 --> 01:54:00.279
five or six years. Absolutely. Well, you mentioned

01:54:00.279 --> 01:54:01.840
Pat. He's been on the show a couple of times.

01:54:03.050 --> 01:54:05.029
Is there a person that you recommend to come

01:54:05.029 --> 01:54:08.149
on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first

01:54:08.149 --> 01:54:10.270
responders, military, and associated professions

01:54:10.270 --> 01:54:14.250
of the world? Probably, but I might need some

01:54:14.250 --> 01:54:19.189
time to think about that. Yeah, Chief Kenny,

01:54:19.310 --> 01:54:25.109
he did such a good job at our summit. There wasn't

01:54:25.109 --> 01:54:28.250
a dry eye in the house. That was a new experience

01:54:28.250 --> 01:54:31.810
for me. I, of course, introduced him, and then

01:54:31.810 --> 01:54:36.439
I went up. to the podium after his presentation

01:54:36.439 --> 01:54:39.500
was over and i got up there and i stood and i

01:54:39.500 --> 01:54:41.680
looked out at the crowd and i had never seen

01:54:41.680 --> 01:54:43.899
that many people at one time just with tears

01:54:43.899 --> 01:54:46.140
welling up in their eyes it just kind of took

01:54:46.140 --> 01:54:48.140
me for a minute i was like wow you know this

01:54:48.140 --> 01:54:50.859
is these people are all really moved and of course

01:54:50.859 --> 01:54:57.279
i was too um so yeah he's just fantastic yeah

01:54:57.279 --> 01:55:01.039
he uh When I first talked to him, sorry, now

01:55:01.039 --> 01:55:03.699
my dog's in the background going crazy. The first

01:55:03.699 --> 01:55:06.060
time that we chatted and I heard his full story

01:55:06.060 --> 01:55:09.779
about Sean, my wife and I were in the car. We

01:55:09.779 --> 01:55:11.920
were in St. Augustine Beach. I can still see

01:55:11.920 --> 01:55:15.380
it outside Kookaburra Coffee. And he's on the

01:55:15.380 --> 01:55:17.420
Bluetooth in my car and telling the story. And

01:55:17.420 --> 01:55:19.619
we're just like sobbing in this car park. So

01:55:19.619 --> 01:55:21.239
anyone walking by, I must've wondered what the

01:55:21.239 --> 01:55:23.880
hell these two crazy people were doing, crying

01:55:23.880 --> 01:55:26.779
side by side in the car. But yeah, he just, I

01:55:26.779 --> 01:55:28.720
mean, he just has so much emotion in his voice

01:55:28.720 --> 01:55:31.079
and he's just a beautiful storyteller as well.

01:55:32.539 --> 01:55:35.199
Have you, have you had Brendan McDonough on the

01:55:35.199 --> 01:55:37.399
show yet? Yeah, we need to do another one. Actually

01:55:37.399 --> 01:55:41.159
the. uh brothers helping brothers conference

01:55:41.159 --> 01:55:43.060
a couple years ago i'm actually doing it this

01:55:43.060 --> 01:55:45.680
year as well um he was one of the speakers and

01:55:45.680 --> 01:55:49.600
i kind of hosted a live podcast um and uh yeah

01:55:49.600 --> 01:55:52.199
he came on when only the brave came out as well

01:55:52.199 --> 01:55:54.279
so yeah we've we've known each other for quite

01:55:54.279 --> 01:55:57.640
a long time but he's another amazing human he's

01:55:57.640 --> 01:56:01.140
he's one that really stood out to me um you know

01:56:01.140 --> 01:56:05.119
i've seen had the incredible opportunity to see

01:56:05.119 --> 01:56:07.380
a lot of speakers at a lot of different events.

01:56:07.420 --> 01:56:09.800
And there's a few that just really stick with

01:56:09.800 --> 01:56:12.680
you, you know? Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well,

01:56:12.699 --> 01:56:14.319
then the last question before we make sure everyone

01:56:14.319 --> 01:56:17.199
knows where to find you, what do you do to decompress

01:56:17.199 --> 01:56:22.100
if it's not reading? Yeah, definitely not reading.

01:56:22.300 --> 01:56:25.420
So I think for me, exercise is a big go -to.

01:56:25.859 --> 01:56:29.340
It's like a green flag and a red flag too. It's

01:56:29.340 --> 01:56:33.079
a green flag for me. I know when I'm in my routine

01:56:33.079 --> 01:56:36.680
and I'm doing something that I enjoy and I'm

01:56:36.680 --> 01:56:39.819
able to be in a habit and a ritual that things

01:56:39.819 --> 01:56:43.619
are going well. It's a red flag, too, because

01:56:43.619 --> 01:56:46.939
if I'm overdoing it, I can definitely feel it.

01:56:47.060 --> 01:56:50.079
But also if I'm starting to feel worn down, like

01:56:50.079 --> 01:56:51.939
I don't want to exercise, like it's more of a

01:56:51.939 --> 01:56:56.100
chore, then I know that I need to make some adjustments

01:56:56.100 --> 01:57:00.159
in other places. I think that spending time with

01:57:00.159 --> 01:57:05.229
my son has definitely become. an outlet for me

01:57:05.229 --> 01:57:07.630
as he's gotten older, I've gotten less and less

01:57:07.630 --> 01:57:10.430
opportunity to do that. And now he's off to college.

01:57:10.770 --> 01:57:13.710
And so those moments are becoming even more rare,

01:57:13.789 --> 01:57:17.010
but even more cherished. So I think spending

01:57:17.010 --> 01:57:19.789
time with family, of course, you know, spending

01:57:19.789 --> 01:57:23.100
time with Brandon, he's on shift work so when

01:57:23.100 --> 01:57:26.180
we have the time together to to do something

01:57:26.180 --> 01:57:28.859
that our whole family enjoys a family outing

01:57:28.859 --> 01:57:32.720
it's definitely something outside um we're we're

01:57:32.720 --> 01:57:35.979
water people we're outdoors people i love being

01:57:35.979 --> 01:57:39.319
on the water salt water preferably somewhere

01:57:39.319 --> 01:57:42.140
far offshore where you can't where you can't

01:57:42.140 --> 01:57:45.020
see land and where maybe you you even lose self

01:57:45.020 --> 01:57:49.649
-service for a while And it's always nice when

01:57:49.649 --> 01:57:52.829
the weather stays fair when you're that far offshore.

01:57:54.729 --> 01:57:58.170
So, yeah, just those types of things I enjoy.

01:57:58.909 --> 01:58:01.670
Brilliant. Well, for people listening, I'm sure,

01:58:01.670 --> 01:58:03.630
you know, people are interested about your work,

01:58:03.710 --> 01:58:05.470
maybe even want to reach out. Where are the best

01:58:05.470 --> 01:58:07.670
places to do that or find out more about you

01:58:07.670 --> 01:58:12.750
online? So they can stop by our website at secondalarmproject

01:58:12.750 --> 01:58:18.710
.org and it's second alarm with the two. secondalarmwiththe2

01:58:18.710 --> 01:58:22.069
.org. We also have a presence on social media,

01:58:22.130 --> 01:58:25.569
so you can find us on Facebook and on Instagram.

01:58:27.199 --> 01:58:29.479
I believe we were trying to get a LinkedIn page

01:58:29.479 --> 01:58:31.699
up. I'm not sure if that happened. I haven't

01:58:31.699 --> 01:58:33.840
checked it out for a while, but just your usual

01:58:33.840 --> 01:58:37.460
channels. If you want to check out UCF Restores

01:58:37.460 --> 01:58:39.800
webpage, you can check that out as well. That

01:58:39.800 --> 01:58:42.539
has all of our information and contact information.

01:58:43.399 --> 01:58:46.220
And we would really love to hear from people

01:58:46.220 --> 01:58:51.680
who are interested. um training or services so

01:58:51.680 --> 01:58:55.079
our funding at least right now uh is is florida

01:58:55.079 --> 01:58:57.680
-based although we do work with a lot of other

01:58:57.680 --> 01:59:00.340
states on some technical assistance and things

01:59:00.340 --> 01:59:02.539
like that but the the bulk of the work that we

01:59:02.539 --> 01:59:05.859
do is within florida brilliant well i want to

01:59:05.859 --> 01:59:08.460
thank you so much it's been such an amazing conversation

01:59:08.460 --> 01:59:10.699
you have a very unique perspective coming from

01:59:10.699 --> 01:59:13.140
the firefighter family and then the research

01:59:13.140 --> 01:59:16.600
world and then you know, creating literally a

01:59:16.600 --> 01:59:20.159
resource for our community. So thank you so much

01:59:20.159 --> 01:59:22.180
for taking the time and coming on the Behind

01:59:22.180 --> 01:59:25.060
the Shield podcast today. Absolutely. It was

01:59:25.060 --> 01:59:27.819
my honor and privilege. It was so nice to finally

01:59:27.819 --> 01:59:29.859
get the chance to sit down and talk with you.

01:59:29.939 --> 01:59:31.779
I can't believe we've gone for almost two hours

01:59:31.779 --> 01:59:35.020
now. It's been a great conversation. And I just

01:59:35.020 --> 01:59:37.500
am really grateful and appreciate what you do

01:59:37.500 --> 01:59:41.420
and the message that you are able to share with

01:59:41.420 --> 01:59:44.010
the community. doing a lot of wonderful things.

01:59:44.090 --> 01:59:45.329
So thank you for what you do.