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by Team Builder, yet another company that's doing
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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you
think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome
to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,
my name is James Gearing and this week I have
an incredibly interesting guest for you. Chris
Cameron is a helicopter pilot that works with
law enforcement. He is an adventurer, a rescue
swimmer, and he leads dives with sharks. So I
would argue one of the most interesting people
I have had to interview as far as the broad skill
set of the individual. So in this powerful conversation,
we discuss a host of topics from some of the
career saves through the helicopter pilot's view,
the incredibly unique experience the divers get
when they go on his shark expeditions, mental
health, and so much more. Now, before we get
to this incredible conversation, as I say every
week, please just take a moment, go to whichever
app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,
leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single
five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,
therefore making it easier for others to find.
And this is a free library of almost 1 ,100 episodes
now. So all I ask in return is that you help
share these incredible men and women's stories
so I can get them to every single person on planet
Earth who needs to hear them. So with that being
said, I introduce to you Chris Cameron. Enjoy.
Well, Chris, I want to start by saying two things.
Firstly, thank you to Drew Nicoletti, our mutual
friend for making the connection. And secondly,
I want to welcome you on to the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Thank you very much, man. I'm
privileged to be here. So where on planet Earth
are we finding you this afternoon? West Palm
Beach, Florida at the moment. Yeah, right here
at the airport, actually. So I've got the rest
of the crew handling calls. So I stepped away
for a second just to touch base because this
was definitely worth the time. I think it's an
incredible opportunity just to talk about what...
what we face as, as first responders and just
life outside of that too, which is something
I'm, I'm super passionate about. Absolutely.
I'm actually going to be down your way. My wife
graduates from Nova Southeastern as a doctor
of optometry next week. I could throw a rock.
Yeah. Yep. Awesome. Congratulations. Yeah, no,
thank you. For four years, she was actually away
from home or three and a half technically. So,
uh, yeah, it's been, uh, it's been the test of
our marriage in a good way because it survived
just fine, but it was a lot. All right. Well,
I'd love to start at the very beginning of your
timeline. So tell me where you were born and
tell me a little bit about your family dynamic,
what your parents did, how many siblings. Yeah.
So I'm a third generation Floridian, which I
guess is rare enough in itself these days. Usually
everybody's a transplant, but families from here,
generations before me, my family was all cattle
ranchers in the middle of the state. And then
they kind of trickled down to South Florida.
And that's where I guess I step into the picture.
My dad, five -person family, two older sisters.
So I was the youngest boy that they would probably
argue got born with a silver spoon in his mouth.
But that's what siblings do, right? My dad, also
a Florida native. Went to the University of Florida,
played football there, then was drafted by the
Cincinnati Bengals. Played 11 seasons in the
NFL for the Cincinnati Bengals. And then after
that, came back to South Florida and started
practicing law. Did some agent work right out
of the NFL and did some stuff with some players
and then moved on and opened up his own practice.
And then that's where I kind of stepped into
the picture. I was the last one to be born and
closing off. full family dynamic so family's
been here ever since and this is where i grew
up my backyard south florida is an incredible
place because it's you can do just about anything
here if you go if i go 15 minutes that way i'm
in the everglades i'm in horse country if i go
15 minutes that way i'm in beautiful gulf stream
blue waters so my time was just grown up split
between being out in the wild well i guess being
out in the wild no matter what direction it was
but being in the Everglades or being out on the
ocean. And grew up here outdoors my whole life.
And then left for four years, went to Mississippi
State University, played football there. And
then after that, got right into my professional
flying career as soon as college was over and
came back to South Florida. So pretty straightforward.
Not a lot of twists and turns down the path.
I was one of those kids. I just knew what I wanted
to do since I was probably... eight years old
i wanted to play football as long as i could
and fly a couple of grandparents that were aces
in world war ii so it was i saw what my dad did
wanted to do that i heard the stories of what
my grandparents did wanted to do that and then
just kind of was able to tie it all together
in life so that's the current that's the current
status well let's go all the way back to grandparents
because this is something i've had so many conversations
with recently um We have this romanticization
of that generation. And of course, what they
did, no one can argue. Absolutely incredible.
But I think where the erroneous romanticization
comes in is, well, they just came home, they
rolled up the sleeves and they just got on with
it and they were fine. But then you hear all
these grandfather stories and you're like, some
of them weren't fine. Just the same way as some
of our vets, some of our first responders aren't
fine at the moment. And that's a natural reaction
to the horrors that they had to endure. arguably
the childhood they had prior to putting on uniform
so when you reflect what was some of the the
powerful combat stories that you heard if any
and then do you now with this kind of mental
health lens see any of the trawler of war on
your grandparents sure um i think i think the
most thing that i was affected by hearing about
it growing up was their age um doing what they
did flying in a world war at 20 years old um
19 in some cases um that is pretty astounding
because i didn't start flying professionally
and in law enforcement until i was you know into
my late 20s so mid to late 20s so and those couple
of years i think make a huge formative formative
difference so i think that's something that always
just kept me awestruck when i was younger just
uh just thinking about what they were able to
process or in some cases maybe not process just
because you are young and you are just kind of
living day by day you're able to accomplish and
do the things that they did so i think that's
always been been first and foremost kind of what
stuck out to me in my mind and then looking back
on it through the lens that i have now their
ability I know we're doing it differently now.
We're having these conversations and we're talking
about these things and talking about the pressures
of the job or the things that you see and the
things that you experience. But they did. They
just came back home. And whether they had each
other in their group of friends or their fellow
men and women at arms that they spoke to about
it, those... conversations I've never been privy
to, but it always seemed like they just rolled
up their sleeves and moved on to the next thing.
Just this impressive commitment to duty. And
I think when my grandparents came back, it was
right into the family life. And it's unfortunate,
they're both past now and I wasn't old enough
to dig into that and have those conversations
with them. I just caught the romanticized version
of it and was just... impressed by it at such
a young age. And I think probably nature and
nurture that kind of steered me down the path
that I'm on for sure. But I wish I had that time
to have those conversations and really get into
what they were feeling, what they were thinking,
what the pressures were of coming home to an
environment like that so starkly different from
what they experienced. When you look back at
the generation prior, obviously it was the Great
Depressions. Some of these families were definitely
hardened by discomfort a lot more than arguably
we are. But when you listen to these grandfather
stories, a lot of times there was alcoholism,
there was domestic abuse, there was a lot of
things that we still see today because they were
human beings first and then maybe a little bit
tougher, maybe a little bit more resilient, but
still human beings. So some people obviously
processed it well. Dick Winters is a good example.
the 101st you know he wrote a whole book and
he seemed to retain you know the the ability
to lead and the ability to move forward but i
think a lot of people suffered in silence as
well and we just kind of brushed over them as
a as a culture yeah i know i know from from my
experience with with my father and uh and speaking
with him the where the word that he would describe
his father as it was just it was always this
stoicism There was just this steady stoicism
that I think was a product, a byproduct of that
environment he came out of. And it wasn't so
much that he was always intimidated by him, but
there was just a heaviness. And that was prevalent
throughout the rest of his life. Absolutely.
Well, I just had an interview with Danny Alvarez,
who's one of our state representatives in the
Tampa area. And one of the bills he was pushing
was to actually help farmers in the state of
Florida, I think especially the cattle farmers.
And I didn't realize how prevalent that was as
a state. Talk to me about the beautiful things
about the cattle farming that you've experienced
and what are the challenges that Florida farmers
are facing? I think, obviously, there's the urban
squeeze, especially over the last couple of years
with COVID and different states making policy
changes. Florida has exploded. It's always been
on the rise, but it has been ramped up completely.
Yeah, Florida, for a very long time, I think
it still holds the title. It's the number one
calving producer of the United States in the
cattle and beef industry. Cattle is raised here
from its infancy. And then once they're born
and raised up a little bit, then they're shipped
off, usually out west, for beef production. But
the process starts here. And I think the biggest
thing that a lot of agriculture faces is just...
Especially with Florida being surrounded by water
on all sides, you've just got this urban sprawl
that just squeezes the middle of the state. It's
still sustainable for now, but it will be an
issue. I went up during my youth to Ocala in
Gainesville and had family that had farms and
ranches. There was a very, very beautiful simplicity.
the lifestyle up there and um it's everything
it not to sound cliche but it's everything that
you would hear in a country song or just life
is who you're with and what you're doing and
uh and that's enough and um and it's hard work
they were grueling summers when i was up there
it's like i have like these fond memories of
it but then i really dig in and i think about
how much i wanted to be back on the coast you
know out on a boat um i get a little can't come
back to reality But it was an incredible experience.
I mean, it taught me hard work, what it is to
wake up when the sun comes up, work all day and
really be hungry for dinner at the end of the
day. I go home now and, you know, I'll eat a
little bit and go to bed. But those were like
ravenous days where as soon as you sit down at
the dinner table, you inhale everything in front
of you and then you go to sleep and wake up and
do it all again. It was a beautiful time, man.
They're really fond memories. Well, I live in
Ocala. And I've seen, sadly, a lot of our horse
farms just be completely decimated and turned
into housing. And let me... not be a hypocrite
i'm sitting in a house on the farm so you know
i'm part of the problem but uh you know the villages
now is just getting bigger and bigger and bigger
and we're losing all that land between orlando
and ocala as well so you know there has to be
a line in the sand i mean at some point you've
got to say enough is enough and retain the very
beauty that florida has before it becomes a concrete
jungle yeah that was the that was the essence
of it for sure I don't think it'll, it's never
been the same after air conditioning was invented.
It would have stayed the same had air conditioning
not been invented. Very true. Very, very true.
All right. Well, then you mentioned about your
dad's NFL career. As we sit here now, we're slowly
starting to understand that the mental health
side is not just a psychology, but it's a physiology.
And a lot of combat athletes, contact sports,
the military, the CTE, the concussion related.
impacts you know becoming more and more prevalent
and more and more we're more aware of them now
what about that impact on your father as we sit
here now Yeah. So my, my father actually participated.
So he played throughout the eighties and the
game was different then. Like I, it's funny.
I was probably a couple of weeks ago. I showed
him, I think it was like, maybe it was an old
broadcast intro for the NFL. And it was like
a 22nd spotlight of like, you know, the upcoming
Sunday night and Monday night games. And it was
this little clip, but of the 15 tackles and action
shots that made up this clip. every single one
of those hits is now illegal. And we were kind
of joking about it. It was celebrated at the
time. This wouldn't even fly for a second in
the league they're playing in now, for good reason.
But we had a laugh about it, and he actually
did participate in the Harvard study of the brain
physiology. It must have been 10, 12 years ago
now. What he took away, and kind of the... The
insight that he got is what they found is that
the brain is very similar for whatever reason.
I don't think they've pinpointed it yet, but
some athletes, for whatever reason, will be plagued
by injuries their entire career, just some type
of physiology. And then others will go through
an entire career, God willing, without ever breaking
a bone or tweaking a muscle. And my dad was one
of those very fortunate where the head trauma,
I mean, he started in the NFL, played for 11,
started for nine in Super Bowl contending teams
and has really, really gotten out unscathed from
that experience, which is just extremely rare.
And they said that's kind of just a physiology
lottery. And he's extremely fortunate because.
He's got players and teammates of his that haven't
been, and he's seen the decline and how rapid
it increases. It's heartbreaking because those
were people I looked up to when I was growing
up that would always be over at the house, and
then as they get into their twilight years, there's
this serious drop -off. He's been very fortunate,
and he's thankful for that every single day and
for what his career afforded him. Knowing what
I know, too, in the law enforcement side and
seeing those kinds of injuries, it's a blessing.
Luck is the only thing that I could describe
it as. Extremely grateful that he's one of those
small numbers that is doing fine. That's amazing.
Yeah, even with the physical injuries, now we're
starting to realize that the multi -sport athletes,
which a lot of your dad's generation probably
were back then, you know, football the whole
time and summer camps and conditioning camps
and travel ball. And like we do to our kids now.
So the multi -sport athlete actually is a lot
more resilient. And that's not so much the brain,
I'm sure. But, you know, like you said, the ability
to overcome injuries, a lot of injuries are overuse.
So if you're playing, you know, a multitude of
sports. it gives you this kind of universal resilience
versus you're a pitcher, you know, at 12 years
old. Give one skill set a break for a season,
then pick up, yeah, and get yourself well -rounded,
for sure. It definitely has its positives. Absolutely.
Well, you mentioned being 15 minutes from the
Everglades. Actually, when I worked for Hialeah
Fire, I lived in Pembroke Pines, and at the time,
I think there were only two streets between us
and the Everglades at that point. Yeah. I know
in your bio you sent me over, you talk about
the interaction with apex predators. So when
did that fascination with the murderers that
we have inhabiting our state begin? Yeah, the
murder logs, alligators. Yeah, that started in
college. So when I would come back. from Mississippi
State, we'd get the month of May off before we
had to be back for summer conditioning and two
days leading up to the season. And I grew up
diving, fishing and hunting and diving. So for
cash, I went and just worked on a dive boat.
And I would spearfish as often as I could. I
grew up lobstering down in the Keys. So once
I started spearfishing and running chartered
expeditions for the dive boats as the dive guide,
as soon as I started seeing sharks regularly,
It's all I wanted to see and just kept trying
to get closer and closer and closer. And I'd
been in the water since I was, you know, in wild
water, either ocean or lakes and swamps since
I was eight, nine years old. That was just part
of growing up here. So I just I just had a pull.
There was that that led to a a career of of taking
people out, you know, when not a career, but
just. making ends meet as a poor college kid,
taking people out and then showing them how much
closer they could get to animals and sharks and
without cages, just through interactions. And
then over the years, through college and then
after college and continuing to dive, I started
to, with the rise of social media, I started
to get inquiries about people, some affluent
clients that were in LA or throughout the country
elsewhere. where they wanted to go out and experience
this in a boutique -style setting, not jump on
a charter boat and go out with a bunch of other
people. And I started kind of pulling this list
of clients together to just showcase and put
them in a one -on -one situation with whether
it was tiger sharks, bull sharks, alligators
in the Everglades, anything that you really...
Anything that could kill you, I guess. And started
to put those trips together. And then eventually
that kind of steamrolled into running those trips
internationally. So whenever somebody wanted
to see something, whether it was hammerheads,
I chartered, would put together trips and guide
trips in the Bahamas. I've led trips in Tahiti.
in Mexico and Guadalupe for great white sharks.
So I just started to kind of put that together.
And social media certainly helps and became recognized
as somebody that could, I wouldn't say a wildlife
expert, but I'm somebody who knows how to stay
alive. And I think that was stay safe and stay
alive. And that was kind of the biggest draw
for people that just wanted to. a very intimate
one -on -one experience with an animal without
the crowds and the splashing and all these other
people. So that's kind of where that just organically
grew into and something that I still do today
with a select number of people. What did that
curve look like between the first interactions
with something that, if you grew up in our generation,
you saw was going to murder you in a beach full
of swimmers, to actually developing this skill
to... safely close the distance between yourself
and these predators yeah there was there was
method to the madness right so um i grew up idolizing
um manny puig who years ago had uh the ultimate
predator show it was on animal planet he was
after like right after jeff corwin he's a native
um to miami and uh was actually uh a friend,
um, somebody that I've met several times and
I'd seen him dive in black water, uh, on TV and,
um, got to, when I was younger, got to, got to
see him in person, interact with him. And the
fear barrier, I think maybe even like we were
talking about earlier with, you know, our grandparents
being a world war two vets, this kind of young
mentality that you're a little bit indestructible,
um, kind of just curve the edges of that. And
I probably made was way more lucky than I was
good at what I was doing when I was out doing
it by myself. But it started with just friends.
The first couple of times that I did it and strapped
a GoPro to myself, somebody said, hey, I want
to go with you. I want to go with you. And then
I kind of used my friends as guinea pigs. I didn't
tell them that at the time. But yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, hey, all right, I've kind of figured this
out with me. Now, how can I figure it out with?
somebody over my shoulder and somebody to my
left and somebody to my right and how can i set
this dive up to position myself where i'm not
in their way but if i need to be i'm an arm's
length away to intervene and then once i started
getting good at that um kind of word just spreads
and uh once i got those first couple of clients
that are now i consider more friend than than
I ever would client. You know, the first thing
that people like to do at a cocktail party is
bust out their phone these days and show them
pictures of what they've been up to and what
they've done. And that's kind of all the advertising
you need in a niche little thing like this, where,
you know, crazy is the identifier for, you know,
getting a new person on board to come do it with
you. It's kind of how that developed. Was there
an element when you brought the first person,
you say, let me see how they interact with them,
that behind your back, you had your fingers crossed
because if this goes wrong, then I'm back to
the drawing board minus one person. I'd love
to say that jokingly, but I was very, very calculated.
I wouldn't have ever put, even if it was a friend
that I thought I could kind of mess with and
they could handle themselves. I was trying to
kind of, before I even knew. what safety briefings
were or got into the world of being a first responder
and responding to life -saving calls. For some
reason, that was kind of always in the forefront
of my mind. Because I wanted it to be repeatable.
So without knowing what my process was or being
able to name a protocol or a brief or a debrief,
I was kind of just naturally doing that. So it
was a long process. And, you know, one of the
things like in aviation, you never want to go
from what your skill level is to up here. You
always want to staircase that thing. Because
when you do this jump, that's where you've, you
know, overreached your abilities and overestimated
what you're capable of. And that's where you
find yourself in those really dangerous moments.
That approach kind of just... was just innately
there. And I don't know why. I'm glad it was.
But I just took it one step at a time, one day
at a time, and wasn't trying to have these giant
leaps forward. That's something I'd feel comfortable
doing now. But at the time, I was trying to mitigate
risk. So it was a slow process. I wish there
was like a good aha story, but I just took my
time with it. Two of the people that really amazed
me, I had Paul DeGelder on the show, the Australian
military member who got, I think it was arm and
leg bitten off in City Harbour. In his training,
yeah. And then Bethany Hamilton as well. And
both of them are huge, you know, advocates, exactly.
So I think that speaks volumes that, yeah, I
mean, they thought they were food. That's what
they're supposed to do. They're supposed to kill
and eat. for a human being to have such compassion
after you know having a life -changing event
to still have this love for nature and advocate
for these very creatures i mean that's that's
an incredible example of human spirit oh absolutely
because that's that's what i love about it the
perspectives shift that takes place when you
then you enter their world and you're able to
see it Not, you know, not splashing around the
surface at a beach or on a surfboard or, you
know, you jumped off the boat or whatever. When
you enter their world and you see it and you
see nature with millions of years of evolution
just existing. And sometimes they're curious
about you and sometimes they're not. Sometimes
they could care less that you're there. It is
a huge perspective shift and you just you sit
there in awe. And yeah, it's no surprise to me.
They had devastating injuries. But when I hear
stories like that, knowing. What I know and what
I've experienced and what I felt, I mean, I've
been in the water and shed tears before because
nature just is astounding. And you're privileged
to see it because, I mean, you could go through
a room full of people and you could ask them,
have you ever actually seen this? Not. on discovery
channel if you actually ever seen this like in
the wild and the numbers are staggeringly low
and when you see it with your own eyes it's it's
a huge shift in what you appreciate about you
know the world still being a little bit mysterious
and the world still being big and grand and and
full of surprises it's it's a big one i was at
crescent beach just south of augustine um probably
eight months ago now and it was just one of those
things where it was just me i like doing the
whole you know body surfing thing um like a five
-year -old even though i'm 51 now uh and this
part of dolphin just kept swinging but swimming
by and it was absolutely beautiful i'm standing
there um and it's one of those things where everyone
else is on the beach you know or they're nowhere
near and i'm just blown away they're missing
this kind of you know god -like moment because
i truly see you know god in nature i really do
But my sister is an editor for the BBC, the National
History Department. And she was saying, well,
you know that dolphins also protect people from
sharks, don't you? And I was like, oh, so that
beautiful moment could have been a great white
on the other side of it. It's still amazing,
but it shifted it for me a little bit. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Now, what about as you reflect with
all these encounters that you have, you know,
are there any that really stand out for any particular
reason? Yes. The moment I talked about earlier
where I was shedding tears, I was diving in Tahiti
with humpback whales. And they venture from the
northern Pacific, Alaska area, Antarctica, and
they come down and they calve in Tahiti in the
warm waters. So they eat all winter and they
travel all the way down. Mother gives birth and
they spend the next couple of months in Tahiti
in the shallow waters just nursing their calves.
And I was on a dive. And this gigantic mother
comes up from the bottom, comes up to the surface,
and then she turns. And I didn't see it the entire
time until she turned. But as she turned, the
calf is just pinned right to her hip. And the
calf, who is this little ball of energy, mom's
tired. She's journeyed across the world. She's
been feeding milk. She's depleted. She's just
hoping the trip goes well and they get to go
home. she's just kind of sombering through this
calf sees us in the water and lights up and thinks
we're like the newest toy on the block. So it
comes splashing over and twirling and somersaulting.
And then as it gets a little bit too far away
from mom, mom starts to sing to her and she starts
singing back. And I was like, Oh man, who's cutting
onions? Like just waterworks. I was like, Oh,
it's the salt water. I was full on just like
tearing up. It was like, hearing this sing song
back and forth between these just like magnificent
animals. It was, it was a life changer, man.
It was, it was absolutely just a gorgeous moment.
Highlight reel for the rest of my life. That
was the good one. Um, I was diving with tiger
sharks in the Bahamas, uh, leading an expedition
there and it was getting, we were getting some,
some sunset pictures. The tide was switching.
The water was getting murky. Tiger sharks are
extremely smart. And they know the limits of
visibility. They'll use their strike pattern
and go just outside of the field of visibility
where you can just barely see a shadow glide
by. And I knew it was getting to that point where,
okay, this is kind of, you know, it could be
dinner time. So let's call the dive. Let's get
back on the boat. But we'd attracted them with
a bait crate. So bait crate was still on the
bottom. And I got everybody back in the water.
And then it was my job to go swim back solo,
grab the crate, get the crate back onto the boat.
So the number one rule of tiger sharks is never
take your eyes off the tiger shark. I left the
boat. I got eyes on the tiger shark. I said,
okay. She was coming around, wide pass, and I
was kind of timing out when she would come back
around my right -hand side, breathe up, go and
do the dive, grab the crate, and I'm trying to
do it as quickly as possible. And I did like
a glance over my shoulder right before I grabbed
the crate, and I thought I had eyes on her. And
then as soon as I put my eyes back on the crate
to grab it, I realized you didn't check good
enough. That wasn't a positive ID. And as soon
as I thought that, I thought to myself, this
is one of those moments where this was maybe
two seconds tops, but in my brain, it was a lifetime.
I thought to myself, she's right behind me. She's
100 % right behind me. And as soon as I go to
grab the crate and I turn around, The mouth of
the tiger shark, closed, mind you, she was still
swimming calm, is right here, bumps my mask,
kind of shifts my mask off, and this school bus
just swam right over the top of me. And I just
watched her go by, fixed my mask, and just kind
of sat there for a second or two, just breathed
it in, took that in for what it was worth. That
is a self -correcting mistake. We will never
do that again. Grabbed the crate. gave her like
kind of a little salute like good going girl
like you got me you're the best at what you do
and then took the crate back to back to the boat
and the day ended fine but it was a testament
to the intelligence um and the vigilance that
you have to have that it's just like in in any
first responding scenario in aviation and all
the things you have to reset the clock every
single time on what your safety protocols are
and what you're letting yourself get away with.
It was another one of those aha moments where,
all right, every time the rules are the rules,
the safety checks are the safety checks. We don't
breeze over them. We don't skip them. We do them
every time. So I've taken that experience into
a lot of avenues in my life, but it was a big
life lesson. It's amazing. That reminds me of
when I roll with the black belt in jujitsu. They
just kind of kiss me on the head, say, I could
have killed you. And then they got you here.
Yep. Same scenario. All right. Well, let's get
into the world of aviation then. So you mentioned
that you were in school, you were playing football
for as long as you could. When did you know that
that was the end of your sporting career? And
then talk to me about your entry into aviation.
Yeah. So my, at the end of my career, um, at
Mississippi state, there's, there was a time
what I wanted to do. My goal was to go fly jets.
So I applied to, to Naval officer candidate school
and, uh, with my, with my degree. And I knew
that there's, there's a time clock, right? So
I was coming out of college. I had a couple of
years where if I wanted to keep chasing, like
a dream of putting cleats on every day, I could
have done that. Uh, it was farfetched. My dad
married a very pretty lady. That's very petite.
He really just kind of hung me out to dry there.
So I'm self -aware enough to know that he wasn't
thinking of me when he married for love. You
should have married a Samoan woman. Yeah, yeah.
I'd probably still be playing. But I made the
decision. I was like, I'm hanging up the cleats
and I'm going full force into the next endeavor,
which is to fly. And so I put in my application,
got accepted to Naval OCS under a pilot slot.
Went off to OCS in Newport, Rhode Island at the
naval base up there. Completed that. And then,
unfortunately, I had fully disclosed all my medical
information, as you have to do during flight
physicals and everything. I had one injury in
high school. It was really my only injury in
my entire career. I took a helmet right to the
kneecap, and I chipped off a piece of my patella,
my kneecap. It wasn't no ligament damage, no
nothing. They went in the next day, removed the
chip, shaved me down, sewed me up, and I was
back on the field pretty quick. But I disclosed
it, and then I found out as I was like two weeks
away from graduating OCS that my medical status,
although I'd passed all the preliminary things
for flight, was still for some reason pending.
And then family came up, graduation day comes.
I keep checking this board every day to see what
my status is. And then the day of graduation,
about three hours before I'm supposed to walk
across the stage and then go down to Pensacola
for flight training, I get called into my lieutenant's
office and he says, your opportunity for flight
has been revoked, citing your knee. And I was
awestruck. I couldn't even process it because
I had already planned out the next eight years
of my life. And once I kind of gathered myself,
what does that mean? What are we doing? It was
like, well, you're going to graduate today, but
your opportunity to be an aviator is over. And
I left the room and just kind of walked out of
there a little awestruck. Went over to the hotel
where my parents were before the graduation ceremony.
I probably got an hour to spare at this point.
And I knocked on the door. And as soon as my
dad opened the door, I think it finally clicked.
And I just broke down and started sobbing. And
couldn't even get out to him what had happened.
And after I did finally explain it, he was like,
all right, well, just go figure something out.
Go figure out the next step. Just put one foot
in front of the other. We'll see you at graduation.
You worry about it when this is over. Walked
across the stage and just kind of in this limbo
and then went into flight surgeons the next couple
of weeks and trying to get things reviewed and
found out at the end that this was 2013. There
were huge federal budget cuts and essentially
what they were doing was pouring through a secondary
pour through of everybody's medical records and
overnight with budget. We had way more pilots
than planes. In aviation, it's always this carousel
of hire and fire, and we've got more pilots than
planes, or now we need pilots. And I caught it
on the downswing. And so my naval aviation career
was over right then and there. So I had the opportunity
to stay in. I could have gone to some different
designators and been on a ship and do that, but
I'd put three years of preparation and flight
training and all this into it. this endeavor
and i was determined to fly so i got the opportunity
just to to discharge from the navy and that's
when i went immediately to the sheriff's office
i wanted to fly in a tactical capacity that was
my goal i i wasn't at the point in my career
yet i didn't want to fly commercially and park
the bus at some other terminal and move it back
to the home base and i wanted to have a mission
so sought out the sheriff's office and uniquely
with our sheriff's office and some others across
the countries, you've got to work the road no
matter what ratings you have. And I came into
the agency with pilot ratings, but you still
have to go work the road because our job is to
catch people, to render aid and to catch people.
So if you don't think like a cop and you don't
have that mindset for catching bad guys, you're
really of no use in the helicopter. So work the
road in some shady areas for three years. And
then when an opening came over in the aviation
unit, applied and gratefully and thankfully was
accepted on the first go around and have been
flying here ever since. So all's well that ended
well. But it was, you know, it was an up and
down, tumultuous kind of start to the career.
And you just you keep knocking on doors. And
if doors don't open, you kick open windows and
jump through the window. That's the situation
I found myself in. how did you handle it emotionally
at that time when you have this identity and
you've already as you said told the story in
your mind for the next eight years and then your
legs are cut from under you and to be slightly
snarky it's funny because now we seem to have
the money to send to israel no problem we can't
even equip our own people but i'll move on with
that um but uh yeah so you know the identity
crisis that we know a lot of people suffer when
they leave this profession It's the same thing
when you were right there. I even had it at a
much smaller rate when I was young. I was told
I was colorblind. I wanted to be a firefighter.
They said, you can't be a firefighter. Now, I'm
not colorblind. I'm slightly color deficient,
but those books, it's pass or fail or used to
be. That was, what was I at the time, 14 -year
-old boy. We're not talking about someone who's
invested in all that training at that point.
How did you deal with that initially? I think
the one thing that did help me in that scenario
is that hanging up my cleats from football, I
was already of the perspective of I'm not what
I do. Like the value and the skills that I've
learned and the things that I approach life with
that I've learned through all these different
avenues in my life have prepared me for anything.
And I can't remember who a mentor of mine or
a friend or a coach, somebody told me, they're
like, you're going to fail a lot in life, but
if you can help it fail quickly, learn what you
can learn. and uh and bring value to the to the
very next thing and i was devastated you know
at that time of my life uh like like i said i
had it all planned out you know and when you
make plans god laughs at you but um but i think
i i just i had a solid foundation of this kind
of cat like you will land on your feet you've
got a lot to offer if you just keep putting your
best foot forward you're not what you do you
are you and then what you do will fall into place
just just shine through who you are and um and
thankfully that's that's the perspective i i
kept and um i knew that it would be a long road
and and i just i just went after it like i i
tried to do with everything else as soon as i
got into the sheriff's the sheriff's department
i anybody that i could talk to that knew somebody
at aviation or could get me in the hangar door
where i could shake hands and say hello and and
showcase my skill set. We have a rescue diver
program. I wanted all the things in my life.
I didn't know how they were all going to tie
together. The background with wildlife and being
in the water since I was little, I wanted that
to be a part of my career. I didn't know how
that was going to work in aviation, but all of
a sudden I walk into a department that has a
rescue swimmer program and does overland rescue
out in the Everglades where there's hogs and
panthers and alligators. And offshore Gulf Coast
of Jupiter is the sharkiest spot in the state
of Florida. It all just tied together. And once
I got to know people and tell them my background,
things just kind of gelled. And it was a natural
fit, which was a huge relief. Just kind of a
payoff of that thought process I had that it'll
work out. Just keep being you. And that's what
I just tried to follow through with. I love that.
I've said this a lot. The mission. that takes
us into firefighting for example isn't to wear
a uniform and have a shiny badge and take selfies
with your leather helmet it's to help people
yeah and so if you were a good person you wanted
to help people before and you go through a profession
and for whatever reason the uniform is taken
for you one day the mission has never changed
just your costume it's like halloween You don't
need a mustache to be a brave person. And then
figure out, okay, well, then what is the next
thing? How can I help continue this mission to
help people make the world better? And in my
case, there's nothing that strokes my ego less
than being someone who sits in front of a microphone
for a profession now. There is no topless podcast
or calendar going around. The house waves are
getting... you know crazy about so from the ego
point of view this is like absolutely zero but
the mission is exactly the same is the same so
so yeah that was very kind of you know healing
for me it's like let that go the kind of image
of the you know the alpha rescuer because you
did that being there done that politicia loved
it but life kicked me out the door for a different
reason and said right go help the people in the
uniform and the mission continues oh fantastic
man yeah that's awesome yeah but i could have
said it i think it's a good thing for people
to think about because it's underlying what you
said i'm just you know piggybacking on that because
you said it beautifully which is you know if
you have this this desire to do this thing the
actual kind of operational elements will come
together but you were always that selfless servant
and you know don't let the the injury the retirement
the termination whatever it is make you think
that you're not that anymore. You've always been
that before you put the uniform and you will
after. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well then
talk to me about what it looks like from someone
who's trying to get into law enforcement aviation,
the kind of training on ramp, and then let's
kind of unpack all the different areas that you
do now. Yeah. So getting into the nice thing
about like the military is the numbers are big,
right? So numbers are big chances are big once
you start getting into smaller departments you
really gotta if if someone is interested in chasing
that down you you gotta be flexible uh i'm very
fortunate and it's this was just the stars aligning
in some parts of my life like in my past military
stars didn't align but here literally being in
my backyard and having a unit that was this large
with this different many mission sets um fit
perfectly but for the most part departments are
small when people get into this unit they typically
retire in this unit um because of the training
that's involved right i mean a dedication to
learning i think i mean i don't know what the
hour mark is but aviation has been compared to
a doctorate in some way as far as you know your
weather um engineering whatever it may be as
far as physics and aerodynamics, you learn a
lot about a lot, not just a little about a lot.
So that is definitely a commitment. So people
stay here and they don't move on until they retire
so that your opportunities to get into an aviation
unit, especially in smaller law enforcement departments,
they are few and far between. So it's something
that if you're committed to it, you've got to.
A, it helps to obviously go get ratings on your
own. Some agencies will pay for it. Some will
not. It always, just like in anything else, anytime
you're going in for an interview and you're going
to put something on your resume, you can already
say that you've made the effort to start learning
this skill and learning this craft. You're above
the competition for the most part. Anybody that's
a go -getter, you're going to go try and do as
much homework as you can prior to taking the
test. And that's something I did. Coming into
the unit with ratings and then switching over
to the helicopter side, our unit and agency pushed
that training through. And that was a couple
of year process for me to get schooled up on
helicopters, which now I can't live without them.
Thought I was always an airplane guy. And then
you make the switch and you're like, man, life's
better going backwards. But yeah, it was moving
on from that, you know, getting the opportunity.
and then uh kind of talking about what we do
as a unit here we have a very very unique and
diverse mission set because palm beach county
is huge and we've got the everglades on one side
we've got the gulf stream coast on the other
and as far as our support um offshore there's
a coast guard station in jacksonville and there's
a coast guard station with uh in miami that has
air division capabilities but both of those assets
are an hour to an hour and a half away. So we
take on, with the inlets that we have here and
the seas that we have here and the water out
west in the Everglades, lakes and ponds and rivers
and canals, we're equipped with the devices and
training to answer those calls before it even
needs to get to that federal government level,
Department of Defense. So we chase bad guys all
day. Offshore rescue, inshore rescue, all the
work that we do with specialty units, SWAT, whether
that's insertion into hot zone areas, high -altitude
surveillance. And then we also have a big commitment
to a VIP that lives in the area. The president
lives right down the street. We're also involved
in his safety and security of the motorcade as
well. So we have dignitary responsibilities here.
It's an extremely unique unit. Really, the only
thing we don't do is fight fires, but we do a
lot. And to exist here in this unit, you kind
of have to be a Swiss Army knife and then take
on the responsibility of being good at all of
it because this is a dangerous business, and
aviation is wonderful but is very unforgiving.
It's something that you have to dedicate the
time and craft to if you want to have a long
career. Speaking of it being dangerous, we've
obviously had numerous tragedies in helicopters.
I was just actually speaking to one of the DC
chiefs who's coming on the show, and he's going
to talk about that tragedy as well and the response
to that tragedy more to the point. But I've had
several other helicopter pilots on the show,
and one of my friends, Dave, flew with Prince
William. get that right yes prince william um
back in the day and they had some crazy near
misses and white outs and all kinds of stuff
yeah um talk to me overall like are we is is
this profession being um broken down by budget
cuts and is that making it more dangerous for
some of these agencies is it just happened that
a few of them happened in the cluster what are
you seeing with this obviously far more educated
lens that i have as far as some of these recent
tragedies we had in law enforcement ems and the
military yeah well i think that i think the the
achilles heel of any you know first responder
profession is to do more with less That's kind
of, you know, you have people that we naturally
take on that responsibility. But culturally,
that's always kind of the, hey, you know, this
is the budget, do more with less. And that's
just a byproduct of the industry. And it's something
that I think we could get away with 10, 15 years
ago. But with the demand for flight time, the
demand for the support. especially in areas like
this that are growing year after year after year
and call volume is going up year after year after
year, we always lag behind what the actual operational
necessity is. We try and get by with whatever
makes the budget work as is. And that's certainly
a professional consideration that we need to,
if we're serious about not only taking care of
the public, but taking care of the people. that
put the shield on or put the badge on that's
something that we would we probably do need to
have a more realistic conversation about we're
flying days we're flying nights we're swapping
back and forth between schedules um and there's
nothing scarier than lifting off the ground at
four in the morning and you're hovering in a
helicopter and that's when you wake up you know
that's that's when you come to that oh oh i'm
flying you know, a multimillion dollar aircraft.
And you get what I'm trying to say. It's, yeah,
it's a conversation that, that certainly, I mean,
there's more, there's more planes, there's more
helicopters in the sky than ever before. And
every single day that we would sit down and have
this interview, I'd be saying that again, and
it would be true. The number will just continue
to grow. But the policies and the regulations
will always lag behind. But the, the growth is
just exploding in some areas. And we're not keeping
up. As you sit there now, Palm Beach County is
in the transition to the 24 -72 firefighter work
week, which is phenomenal. And I hope that one
of the residents, Donald, will go, oh, well,
if my firefighters have this, maybe the whole
country should have it. So if he hears this,
I'm just sowing that seed now if we're going
to really. We help the first responder professions
manifest it. But that being said, you know, there
really aren't any checks and balances when it
comes to sleep in fire and EMS especially. What
are the stipulations, the barriers when it comes
to the aviation side? We have kind of our set
of rules within our department that limits flight
time. We do have, we are very lucky here. We
have a phenomenal command staff that if we're
burned out, because a lot of people don't realize,
I mean, flying dynamically, it's one thing to
pick up, go from point A to point B and set down.
But dynamically at night. over zero light conditions
over the ocean or the Everglades where you literally
can't tell the horizon line from the ground.
You're inside the helicopter. You're looking
inside instrumentation. You're outside. You're
on NVGs, this constant scan. You're looking over
your shoulder. kind of peek in to make sure that
your camera angle and the way you've oriented
the aircraft is on par with what your camera
operator needs to keep eyes on a suspect to make
a call work or else it's all a wasted effort.
Not to mention you've got micro vibrations for
an hour and a half, two hours that are just as
you're sitting there, tiny, but an hour and a
half of this just, you know, shuddering the entire
time will wear you out. Our command staff is
phenomenal. If we are burnt, we can pick up a
phone at any time of night, any time in the morning
and say, hey, you got to bring somebody in. Now,
like I was saying earlier, culturally, would
we ever do that? I'd like to say we would, but
we won't. It's just chug a Red Bull and hard
press on. That's the reality of it. But we do
have limitations. Five hours flight time at night,
anything starts to scratch close to that, we
need to make phone calls and make sure that a
fresh crew comes in so that we're keeping ourselves
safe. But more importantly, we're not flying
over the middle of nowhere half the time. We're
over high populated areas. So the public safety
is a part of our diagnosis and briefing as to
whether or not we should be flying or not. So
that's always a main point. Is there a national
industry standard as well? No. No. The airline
guys and their unions have stuff pretty dialed
in. They got it going pretty good. But as far
as law enforcement in general or any type of
mission set specific to us, it all just comes
down to individual agencies and what they adopt.
But for the most part, they do listen to their
pilots. So it's not necessarily an uphill battle.
Again, it's a culture battle of will you get
a pilot to say that he needs help? Maybe you
do, maybe you don't. Absolutely. Well, you mentioned
the rescue swimmer side as well. And I always
said, if this is, this would entail me actually
passing the selection, but if I was going to
enter a branch of the special forces, special
operations, the PJs would be the one. I think
that's the one that closely replicates the fire
service. And I've always loved water myself.
I was a lifeguard for a long time. Doesn't mean
I would have passed, but that was what I would
have tried to pass. You would have passed. But
that being said, it's such an admirable profession,
especially some of the conditions that some of
these men and women are in, affecting these rescues.
So talk to me about that side, because not only
have you got the aquatic nature, as you mentioned
before, you've got apex predators within that
aquatic nature. So it's quite a danger upon danger
element to facilitate some of these rescues.
Yeah. Well, I think for me, One of the biggest
things that I've seen as somebody that runs our
rescue swimmer program, the physical attributes
have to be there. Obviously, we do a swim test
very, very similar to the Coast Guards that absolutely
smokes you, something that you have to stay current
on. But there is something to be said about just
being comfortable in the water. Because it is
a very, very lonely business when you leave that
safety blanket of the aircraft and it's you and
what you're wearing. And those are the tools
that you have. Those are the tools that you have
to deal with whatever's going on in the water.
Those are the tools that you have to deal with
the victim and get yourself back into the aircraft,
which there's always possibility that if you
get out. Maybe the seas keep pitching and rolling.
Maybe you don't get back in. So I think one of
the biggest things that I look for and the biggest
blessings for me is just there's not much water
that you can put me in. Now, we're very lucky.
I'm not in the Bering Sea. I'm not in Alaska.
I'm in warm tropical waters. But I'm comfortable
in it all. I'm comfortable in black water. We've
had calls in the Everglades where it's a foot
and a half of visibility. question somebody asked
you before you get out of the aircraft is there's
three alligators are you comfortable you know
and first it's not the same answer for everybody
i've just been fortunate enough to have that
experience um and i feel like i've got it under
control so that's that's one of the biggest things
is i think that that element of somebody just
being comfortable completely alone completely
by yourselves where the only backup that you
have are people that can just watch you And just
make sure that you pop back up or that you safety
signal. And that's all they can really do for
you. So that's a huge part of just being successful,
I think, is being able to keep your body, your
heart rate, your mind from just racing in these
scenarios where you're very much alone. You mentioned
having to stay current on swimming. How many
years? Oh, as far as like what the... Recertifying.
Oh yeah. It's, it's every year. And we train,
I mean, we, we train twice a month. Rescue swimmers
get together and we, we go through our paces.
But the yearly, and those, if you can make it
through our, our, our, you know, get together
swims, you'll be fine for the test. But yeah,
yearly we go back through and everybody's got
a recall. So, cause I've always, I've, I've said
this recently, one of my lifeguard friends a
while ago now. kind of just reminded me that
we have these annual tests or every two years
in some some organizations there's a lifeguard
you if you can't pass a test after a year two
years you just you're not a lifeguard anymore
with this you know this um bar that you're held
to even though you know you're on the pilot side
as well what is your perspective of law enforcement
and fire resisting any fitness standards whatsoever
Oh, man, that's a hard one. It's an interesting
question because Drew, who was our introduction
and a phenomenal Army pilot and now flies reserves
for the Air Force, I've had this conversation
with him a ton of times. We've talked about the
challenges of doing this in the EMS and law enforcement
world where not only are you held to a very high
standard, but you go back to life every single
day. You're not on a deployment where it's mission,
mission, mission, mission, tune up for the mission,
complete the mission, and then you get to come
home. And it's just different, just different
challenges. It's very hard, speaking honestly,
to find guys and women that can keep it all together,
keep the family life, keep... keep their physical
fitness, keep their mental fitness all in shape.
And it presents some serious challenges. I think
that the resistance that you're talking about
comes to just a simple level of fatigue that
comes from trying to keep all level, you know,
six plates in your life that are all at. you
know danger's edge or or have huge implications
on your life and the quality of life spinning
at the same time and spinning at the same speed
so it's and i know that and then you're going
to have your you know your your feet draggers
that just they're going to complain because they're
going to complain but what we face in our side
of things because we do get go -getters is that
even with go -getters, it's just hard. It's just
a different nature of the beast where you've
got to do a lot and you've got to be good at
a lot and you've got to keep your standards where
your standards are going to be. And life changes.
What worked for a guy before he was married or
when he was in a relationship or now he's got
kids, hey, no harm, no foul. Give me your vest.
You know, figure it out. Job's still here if
you want it. And if you can resubmit that same
level of commitment, then it's here. But we're
going to keep the standard what the standard
is. And if that means you've got to come and
go and come and go, then we'll figure it out
because we need the bodies. But, you know, we're
not going to drop our standard. You know, it's
just we can't do that to the public. Yeah. And
this is how I feel about police and obviously
fire, especially as my profession, fire and EMS.
um but you're right this is this is where i'm
always trying to be very um universal in the
way i look at this ownership is part of it of
course but what is ownership from it's it's your
entire life up to that point You grew up working
on farms. I grew up on a farm. So there's a different
level of understanding of work ethic and movement
and, you know, the importance of nature and understanding
where food actually comes from that all factor
into these good decisions later. But absolutely,
I could not agree more, which is why I fight
so hard for the work week and the fire service.
At the moment, when you've got people working
56, 80 plus hour weeks, how can you then ask
them to maintain a standard? They should maintain
a standard. but you haven't given them an environment
to maintain a standard. With what left in the
tank are they supposed to maintain the standard?
Exactly. So this is what's exciting now. Alongside,
hey, we're giving you a 42 -hour work week, there
should now start to be in these departments that
are going that way, the conversation about, right,
now we need to put in a fitness standard. Now
that we've actually created an environment that
does forge performance and longevity, and we've
put you back in your family where you're supposed
to be. which is so important, which then heals
that element. Now your sleep is better. Now your
testosterone is better. Now your body composition
is better. Now let's hold you back to where you
were in the fire academy. Because I don't understand
people saying it's not fair with the standard
itself. It's like that's literally... what you
were told you had to do to become a firefighter
so don't come at me with that bullshit same with
the place you know but so when we fix the environment
this is the thing it's it's a win -win because
then you bring in a fitness standard now the
performances are a high level and the longevity
of the first responder now you know becomes so
much greater and so it you know no one can say
there's any downside there isn't a downside but
we have to find our way back there but so like
you said to demand it without changing the work
week is not going to work. And to change the
work week without demanding a fitness standard
is not going to work. So yeah, it's got to be
together. Two punch combo. It's got to be one.
Yeah, they got to be both at the same time. Yeah,
absolutely. All right. Well, you touched on the
SWAT side too. So what are some of the notable
calls where the skill set that you and your crew
had facilitated an arrest or stopping something
horrible happening to someone? I'll tell you
one off the top of my head. They had a they had
a suspect that was fleeing. And in any cityscape,
you start to run into those those streets and
names and lanes where it's first street, first
avenue, first place. And nobody know there's
no you couldn't figure out with an Atlas and
a GPS iPhone where you are. And when you're running
after somebody, you know, a violent suspect.
It just, it convolutes the question even more.
That day I was flying with one of our most skilled
pilots in the unit. I was actually operating
the camera and one of our guys who was in pursuit
of the suspect got by himself and nobody for
the life of him or for the life of anybody else
could find where he was, where the chase was
going down, what direction they were heading.
He was just, the blinders were on and the streets
didn't make sense. And we were the only people
that had eyes on him. And we were trying to give
people directions. We'll turn left at 3rd Avenue,
and then you're going to run into 3rd Lane. And
it wasn't happening. So the skilled pilot that
I was with, absolutely phenomenal. There was
a canal bank, I mean, just about as wide to fit
a helicopter in. And he said, can you help him?
I looked out, and I looked over at him. I said,
yeah. And I mean, before I even finished, yeah,
we were descending out of the air. The aircraft
was placed in the ground perfectly in a tight,
confined area. I hopped out, gun, radio. I knew
exactly where they were running. We headed them
off. We made the apprehension together. And before
I was, I mean, even feet on the ground, the helicopter
was back in the air. He was flying, keeping eyes
on us, still calling out. to other units while
talking to other air traffic the guy was a rock
star doing it all and uh and we were able to
make an apprehension we we draw down on the guy
and i've got a helmet on i'm in a flight suit
i've got my firearm and i come around the corner
make eye contact with with my my fellow deputy
we sprawled the suspect out on the ground and
he just keep he just keeps looking at me like
what what do you How did you, what are you doing
here? And I said, we'll talk about it in a second.
And literally, I'll never forget this. He's pointed
out the suspect and he looks at me, he goes,
this is the coolest day I've ever had at work
in my life. Like we're mid arrest and he had
to get that out. And we made the apprehension.
I gave him a knuckle up and the call ended well.
Everybody was safe. Nobody got hurt. Got back
to the helicopter, flew back. We landed, refueled,
did our paperwork. And about a half hour later,
the deputy called me and said, hey, man, I just,
I can't thank you enough what you guys did. I
was, you know, I was completely alone. It's incredible
to know that in those oh crap moments, you guys
are there. And it gave me chills, man. It was
one of those days where just like job well done
and everybody went home safe. He went home to
his family. And that's what it's all about. And
mission accomplished. I've been having conversations
with strength and conditioning coaches that work
with the military. Normally, you know, the upper
tiers of the military and then some of them also
work with us. And it was crazy going back. It's
really going back to the fitness standards when
it comes to them working with the SEALs, Delta,
you know, again, Power Rescue, whoever it is
they're working with. They're helping them squeeze
out performance. now they come work for police
and fire let's just say fire because it's the
arena i know and they're like well we need to
get you walking more here's how to make a bowl
of oatmeal you know let's basically try and get
you to die a little bit less than you are at
the moment yeah and now again going back to this
movement in florida especially where this this
wellness um lens has changed the work week and
now we're talking about fitness standards there's
a chasm between where we are and where we could
be as far as performance and i think that story
is a beautiful example if you did the bare minimum
in all these roles would you have had the skill
set to land the bird where you did to apprehend
the fitness you know the the tactical know -how
i mean all the things so these are you know the
areas that i think you just don't have these
conversations you know that the ability to critically
think the ability to use your physicality and
your you know your um intelligence and wit to
mitigate some of these situations, that's what
you get from that next level of training, fitness,
and rest and recovery. Absolutely. And I think
one of the worst things that you can do in those
situations is have the mindset that you're still
whatever level of fitness. your actual fitness
be lacking and then when you hop out of the helicopter
or you hop out of the fire truck and you start
to sprint in that direction now all we've got
is another victim you know and that is that is
the worst thing that you can do for yourself
for for the team that you're working with my
goal has always just been useful and to keep
the spear sharp so that there wasn't a moment
where oh hey get get chris some water i'll get
water when this is done you know, so that we
can accomplish what the mission and the goal
is. And absolutely, because that in between where
you are trying to help or you're fighting for
your life, and then you have that voice in your
head click, say, I'm not ready for this. In law
enforcement, that's when we... That's when dangerous
mistakes happen. That's when people go to their
weapon that they should have been going to their
weapon for. They try and do something because
they are gassed. They are at their absolute limitation.
And that didn't have to be the case. I'm not
here standing up on a soapbox saying everybody's
got to be Captain America. But there is a huge
gap. There is a chasm that we need to fill because
it makes you safer. It gets you home to your
family. And it keeps the public safe. And that's
the goal of all of this. And the physical fitness
component of that fits into a very large piece
of that pie, for sure. Absolutely. Well, just
while we're on the law enforcement side, as far
as SWAT and all these other things, when I'm
thinking of... pilots in the military setting
and i don't know if i'm just thinking of video
games and this is absolute bullshit but i'm thinking
that the friendly soldiers have the beacons so
the pilots know who you know who they're after
who they're not is there an element of that in
law enforcement because i can imagine when there's
all these white you know outlines and they're
trying to figure out who is who we we do use
some of that some of that uh tech and some of
that um some of those um advantages with with
tracking with our canine just because the pace
that they're moving and usually if they're if
they're searching it's in and out of tree lines
in and out of bush lines through you know through
brush or through houses where they're going to
turn corners and they're going to pop back out
so yeah no we we have those capabilities we've
got we've got capabilities to identify things
to them on the ground that they can be privy
to. So we can identify targets that nobody else
can see, but our guys can see it and kind of
see where we're looking and where we're pointing
to. So we have those capabilities. I think people
would be surprised to know of our capabilities,
but that's our secret to keep as well. Well,
what about on the canine side? You see some pretty
amazing things as far as insertion with dogs.
Talk to me about that, if anything, on the canine
side and what you're doing. Yeah, I mean, it's...
For what our capabilities are, and we have forward
-looking infrared, and we have that ability to
see heat signatures and things like that, but
there's plenty of times where canopy cover, whether
it's a metal roof or a shed or something like
that, where we can't get a strong enough heat
signature. With the camera work, you would breeze
right over it thinking, spot's clear, only to
have the dog a couple seconds behind your trail.
Then all of a sudden you hear this keying up
on the radio and somebody screaming in the background
because we found them. So, no, yeah, there's
never a lack of element of surprise as to what
those dogs can do and their capability with incredible
handlers that do an awesome job. Those guys are
relentlessly training. They take their craft
very, very seriously. And they keep those dogs
just in phenomenal shape. And just their ability
to communicate with them and identify, you know.
victim suspect targets you know just stand by
you know person that's just calling in the call
how they can weave those dogs through through
a crowd and stay on a trail it's impressive makes
the job fun just because sometimes you get kind
of lured into just watching it you feel like
you're watching an episode of cops and you're
actually working it what about before we go to
i want to go to the mental health next but what
about as far as your own ability to stay in good
physical condition not so much the fitness standards
but as far as the wear and tear the reason i
asked that my friend dave is a pilot and he's
had a lot of issues with the neck because you
got the helmet you got the nods and just that
weight and like you said the g's and everything
else as well and then i've had another person
that was even implying that um what about the
flight suits the same pfas issues that we're
looking at in our our gear as firefighters you
know that there's there's an element of that
in aviation as well so All things health in a
pilot's position. Talk to me. Well, with the
PFAS thing, yeah. I mean, if I could write a
memo and they just let me fly in board shorts
and a shirt and flip -flops. And hey, if I'm
going to burn up, I'm going to burn up, man.
Just let me burn up quick. I don't want to live
through life the rest of the time. yeah it's
it's in the back of my mind you know the exhaust
the turbine engines all that it's in the back
of my mind there's not much i can do about it
and i i you know i'll probably change my mind
when i'm older but right now it's like it's the
life i chose and it's what lights lights my world
on fire um so i'll deal with it but the physical
side is probably the thing i you know i feel
the most Yeah, the neck issues, there's well
-documented cases of all the hours of the military
guys. They've done a better job of documenting
it than law enforcement has. But MVGs, weighted
helmets, and then, you know, for the most part,
we do pull Gs in the aircraft. We're not, you
know, doing aerobatic flight, but you come into
a tight turn and you're pulling another half
pound of Gs or another half G or a full G, and
now your eight -pound helmet weighs 16 pounds.
And it's, you know, for a half hour, 45 minutes
of 16 -pound strain pulling your neck down. I
feel that every single time I work a night shift.
And it's one of those things where body in motion
stays in motion. Oh, my gosh, I'll say that again.
Body in motion stays in motion. So if I'm not
working out and I'm not doing, you know, weight
training, I fall apart. I mean, the back, helicopter
seats. It's like flying Spirit Airlines. It's
terrible. You're crammed into a tiny little seat
the whole time. So the physicality of it is definitely
something that I personally address, and I just
do not miss a day in the gym or else it gets
worse. You think you want to take a day off,
especially after night shift. You think you do.
You think that's kind of like, well, I'll just
rest or I'll just recover. And then the next
morning you wake up and you're paying the price
for it. So it's a constant vigilance thing, just
staying sharp. trying to beat off father time
that sounded weird when you said it that way
i had a i had the the creator of i think it's
the iron neck i hope i got that name right but
yeah i've used it we have one at the hangar here
how do you find that helping with this issue
It actually helps a lot, and they're not paying
me to say that. Just an honest assessment. No,
if my neck is stiff, I'll do the full kind of
– they've got the little card that shows you
all the exercises. I'll run through that, and
it loosens the neck back up, like gets me right
back in the game. I was actually very impressed
with it. Yeah, I got it, and I was thinking like,
well, here's another thing from Joe Rogan we're
going to give a shot out to, and it worked. It's
fantastic. Very cool. all right well then shifting
to the mental health side obviously we kind of
touched on it when we're talking about your your
grandparents but yeah as you've progressed through
obviously the military more on an educational
side and then you know actually being boots well
i'd say boots on the ground boots above the ground
in your case um in the law enforcement side what
what were some of the highs and lows of your
own journey and then uh let's start talking about
you know your your lens on that whole issue now
I think the hardest calls are definitely, and
the hardest experiences for me, I think for anybody
that's just trying to help is the ones where
you can't help, where you were just, and it's
beyond your control, you were too late or whatever
the case may be. Those just sting because there's
a lot of just what ifs. And you can really find
yourself beating yourself up about that. Well,
what if we'd have gotten out and gotten the aircraft?
What if, you know, we'd... taken off faster or
the airport would have cleared us to get there
and you could you could just chase your tail
all day you know trying to trying to figure that
out um those staying we do get called it's south
florida um florida for for that matter you know
there's bodies of water everywhere and we've
there's kids everywhere those are heartbreaking
i'm not a father yet i have a niece and nephew
that i would take a bullet for and i Those are
tough days. Those are days I just go home and
I just like take my dog, sit her on the couch
and just kind of just go silent for a little
bit because that one just is a complete gut punch.
But dealing with it, I'm very fortunate. My girlfriend,
her father was former NYPD. She's someone that
gets it. And she's also, we're on the same page
as to the fact that we're not doing it how the
previous generation did we're taking all the
good things that we saw and we're bringing that
forward into our relationship but the communication
is is wide open and uh and tough days get talked
about and if tough days don't get talked about
she gives me the grace and the time to process
it and then it gets talked about and uh and we
we have that ability and i have that ability
to have an outlet and uh and somebody that is
able to just understand a little bit deeper into
kind of the lens that i'm looking through the
world with so that's that's been huge and then
we we have a phenomenal unit here too where part
of our debrief is you go through your checks
you come back from a call this is what went good
this is what we could have done better that all
gets sorted and then the last question is hey
is everybody okay and uh who's feeling it who's
not and and i've had those conversations with
guys who have who have had kids and uh and we've
been on those calls where whether it's a pool
or a canal or whatever case we might find them
in where we come back we take a little somber
moment moment we talk about it hey man i i just
kept you know i'm thinking about my kids now
and and that kind of thing and and it gets talked
about doesn't get stuffed down the conversations
are had And we have a great agency, too, where
if it needs to go to another level, a more professional
level, if kind of, you know, the guys can't handle
it, then meaning that we can't handle it internally,
just speaking together, that we've got the resources
and it's encouraged. Our agency does a great
job of pushing that, that the help is there if
you need it. And they encourage us to get it,
you know. And it's not a thing from the past
where now you've got an egg on your face and
you're a guy that called the hotline and that.
that kind of culture is, is slowly dying out
and it's certainly for the best. One of the things
that I've kind of observed myself because of
that inability to save is crushing. And I've
said this many times on the podcast, when I responded
to a cardiac arrest, they are already, the heart
is not beating in 14 years. Plus I actually worked
a code on a plane about a year ago in London.
I have zero saves, not a single one. And so if
you look at the way that we're trained, well,
you go through school, you learn the drugs, you
learn your cardiac algorithms. And if I give
this drug and these CPR and then this defibrillation,
then the person wakes up and they come to the
station, they bring a cake, we take a photo,
it's in the paper. 14 years later, you're like,
fucking hell, am I the Grim Reaper? What is wrong
with me? But I think the thing that appeases
that is, again, going back to what we talked
about with standards and training and fitness
and everything. if you know that you've done
everything you could to prepare, then I think
that's where you can lean into and go, you know,
I'm not God. I'm not going to, you know, we were
never going to save everyone, but we did everything
that we could. It was, you know, in the somewhat
in the way it was supposed to, we all, we all
know it's organized chaos. So it's never like
clinical when, when we go through these codes,
but I think we're a very dangerous place. that
some people inhabit is these agencies that are
lax, that don't have the fitness standards, don't
have the training standards. And that person
knows in their heart of hearts that maybe that
person died because of their skillset or lack
thereof. That's very, very heavy. And I, that's
certainly, I know that goes on. Absolutely. Yeah.
That's, that's a, that's a dangerous place to
be because there's not much you can, you can't
do anything about it after the fact. And, and
that's, that's a heavy, heavy thing to carry
for sure. Well, you mentioned as well in the
debrief about what can, you know, what can we
do better? I think that's a really important
thing. You know, we call it tailboard critique
and the fire service and the good crews that
I work with. We would always do that at the end,
you know, kind of assess what went well, what
could we do better next time? Because, yeah,
you might not have saved that person, but was
there a way of getting off, you know, getting
in the air 60 seconds earlier the next time?
Was there an area that can be improved on? So
talk to me about that because. other places i've
worked there wasn't it was just like well no
one died so we're good let's move on yeah which
is a horrible way of doing it yeah culturally
i think i think if you really do want to have
an elite unit that has to be internal because
the fact of the matter is is that first responders
are given some grace there's nobody really looking
over your shoulder saying nobody's doing an audit
on your life -saving attempt That all has to
come internally. The public just trusts that
you are trying to do your best, which is a huge
responsibility. And I think it's an absolute
disservice if you're letting that and you're
just kind of riding that out. We, in our debriefs,
we have our conversations. We talk about the
call and maybe there's some high -fiving that
goes on, but there is a specific moment where
it's, All right, this point of the debrief, it's
time for thick skin. And we have very honest
conversations. And the mention of thick skin
is to get everybody in the right headspace that,
hey, this is a reminder. Nobody's coming after
anybody. But our standard is very high. And nobody
here is perfect. We are all of the same mind
that we want to put out the best product possible.
So with that in mind, we're going to get into
the nitty gritty. And we're all going to hold
ourselves accountable for the standard that we've
set. And I think that's absolutely essential
because like I said, nobody else is doing that
for you. That's not in a manual. That's not coming
down from your higher ups. That's just policed
internally at the unit level. And that culture
either exists or it doesn't. And if it doesn't,
yeah, then you're going to be left to wonder
how good you could have been, really could have
been at your job or how much more good you could
have. you could have helped, how much more good
you could have done. And that's not a question
I want to be asking myself in my, you know, twilight
years sitting back on my porch. I want to leave
it all out there and have that comfort of knowing
that, yeah, we're not going to save them all.
In fact, to your point, we're not going to save
a lot of them. But we're going to give it everything
we got. And we're going to try and be the best
that we can at our profession, our job, for sure.
Absolutely. And again, it goes back to this conversation
on all these areas. It's like, it's not one side,
it's both sides. You know, you've got to have
the ownership as a first responder to hold yourself
to a high bar. And there's got to be an environment
to allow you to get to that high bar, to function
at that high level. So it's, and yet, but you
see a lot of finger pointing in agencies. Well,
if, you know, admin just did this, or if the
firefighters just did that, it's like, well,
how about you both did what you're supposed to
do? Then, you know, rising tide will lift all
ships. Everyone will benefit then. Yeah. Yeah.
We're in a unique position too, because once
that helicopter lifts off, it's only us. It's
who's in that aircraft. And, you know, just like
probably responding in any rescue vehicle or
fire engine, the higher ups and all that, we
leave them behind when we go fly away and we
go fly to a scene, which is nice in a sense.
You definitely want their support and everything,
but it's... It's about looking across the cabin
and looking at the people you're with and knowing,
hey, this is, you know what, this feels good
because for what we've trained and what we've
done, I feel like I'm with the A team. And that's
a good feeling to have. And it makes a huge difference
on the decisions you make and the outcome of
cases and calls when you look around the room
and you're like, okay, that guy's. tip of the
spear, that guy's tip of the spear, that guy's
greatest job. There's a confidence and a synergy
that comes from that that just improves the product
all the way across the board. But it starts at
the base level. It's got to be something everybody's
all in on. Absolutely. All right. Well, I want
to shift to some closing questions, but I want
to be mindful of your time as well. The first
one I love to ask, is there a book or are there
books that you'd love to recommend? It can be
related to our discussion today or completely
unrelated. Yeah, Deepak Chopra, Metahuman. It's
like one of my favorite books. It's great. It
is, I wouldn't even know actually where to start.
It's like, it's the perspective I try and take
into work every single day and with life that
life is not your circumstances. It's almost like
we're just actors in a play, man. What is happening
is already happening. Just do the best that you
can. Be there for the experience and maximize
it. I read that book actually right before I
went and climbed Aconcagua, which is one of the
seven summits. And I don't think I would have
made it to the top without it. I heard, do you
know who Wayne Dyer is? I know that name. He
did a lot of stuff with Deepak when he was alive,
but he died of leukemia a few years ago. But
he, I guess best to describe him as like a white
Deepak Chopra. He took... He just took all the
wisdom from everything, like the holy texts,
you know, ancient wisdom, all the things and
boiled it down to just common sense, which is
why I love it because I don't subscribe to any
specific religion. I just think that there's
common denominator, wisdom and everything. That's
why it's being passed down. But I think it was
in a conversation with Wayne. I'm not sure. But
Deepak was talking about going to India and there
was some holy place where it was written on.
pieces of bark and your name was on there. And
it said that, you know, the date that you were
going to die. And again, it was almost like that
stoicism, you know, they, they kind of find like,
Oh wow, everything is already written out for
me. Yeah. And you know, again, some people would
say, well, it's just a crazy Indian guy writing
dates on a piece of wood and other people are
all in, but regardless of that same mindset,
like you said, it was like, whether you like
it or not, you know, the sun's going to rise,
the sun's going to fall. So, you know, are you
going to. resist it the whole way or are you
going to put something you know worth doing in
your heart and just trust the process that's
it love that absolutely all right what about
films and documentaries oh films and documentaries
I get, it's probably low hanging fruit, but man,
any, any like animal planet series, like planet
earth, can't get enough of those. Um, I could
fall asleep to those like 24, seven, three 65
at the end of the day. Um, specific films. It
would also be cliche of me to say everybody should
see top gun, but I'm not going to go that route
either. Um, that's a tough one. Specific films.
Oh, Memphis Belle. That was like one of those
Catalyst movies when I was younger, and I think
it had a lot to do with my grandparents and the
stories that I heard and grew up hearing and
talking about. Yeah. Bomber crew in World War
II makes it to 25 missions, first bomber crew
to ever do it, so they got to go home. The pressure
that those guys were under at that young age
to do those bombing raids in daylight, absolutely
unimaginable, to be honest, but one of my favorite
movies. Did you ever watch Masters of the Air?
Yes, I did. What did you think of that one? I
had Dale Dye on the show, and it was pretty amazing
hearing the kind of backstory, but what was your
perception as a pilot? No, those – yeah, same
perspective as with Memphis Belle. You just –
there's guys in those aircraft that don't even
have facial hair yet. And that is – I think what
that movie really encapsulated really well that
maybe other movies in the past haven't is the
chaos of when those planes were under attack
during those runs. literally just planes falling
out of the sky left and right and you'll they
go home to land and half of their friends did
not come back like the sheer numbers of loss
um is something i don't i don't think we've seen
in a very long time it's very very very unique
to that to that time period where we were just
it was all about manpower and and no smart bombs
it was just How many people can you put into
an aircraft? How many aircraft can you put in
the air? And numbers were in the war. And it
was just very, very different landscape and devastating
what those guys saw. I think the other thing
as well is when you watch Band of Brothers and
the Pacific and Masters of the Air and you realize,
well, I mean, this is obvious what I'm about
to say, but there was no GPS. So you're literally
on a boat, then on a beach, and then there's
a bunch of bunkers up there. And you've got a
map or you're in a plane and you've got your
altimeter and everything. You're looking at some
kid that you hope paid attention in navigation
school and hoping he hadn't nodded off in the
back. Yeah. I mean, that just adds another level
that blows my mind. There's no, like you said,
heat signature of the Germans from Overwatch.
They could literally be behind the wall that
you're walking forward and that's it. You're
done. Yep. Different time when men were men,
right? absolutely and it goes back to the beginning
of the conversation you know yeah the toll that
that must have taken that constant fear even
the vietnam generation going through those jungles
you know and the korean korean veterans that
are forgotten constantly i've got one coming
on the show actually but that's an era that i
mean if you see what they did the the north koreans
pushed the south koreans all the way to literally
the southwestern tip of the country and the allies
pushed them all the way back to the the halfway
point again it was amazing what those men and
women did yeah all right well then the next question
is there a person that you recommend to come
on this podcast as a guest to speak to the first
responders military and associated professions
of the world oh and it can be anyone yeah um
john rourke who's uh who's also in this area
um was a a uh former member of the military army
um he then uh well he's i mean a complete service
life he started the company blue line blue line
moving a couple of years ago actually when people
were exiting uh from new york and coming down
to florida he was trying to he was he was uh
doing an incredible job of of offering opportunities
for first responders to come down and come populate
the sunshine state but uh an absolute um Incredible
example of service. He's been down to Eagle Pass
and the southern border a ton. He did cleanups
down there. He's done that the past couple of
years under the great American cleanup. And just
a really good guy. I would definitely, definitely
recommend him to the podcast. Just a service
-oriented patriot, for sure. Beautiful. That's
just spurred a question I meant to ask you earlier.
A lot of people in... Usually the EMS helicopter
side, we're talking when I was earlier in my
career, there was still a lot of Vietnam era
pilots. And you hear these horror stories of
these medics hanging on for dear life in the
back. Was there any interaction as you progressed
into that side with some of these incredible
pilots from that era? Well, I think I kind of
like hit it in the middle as those guys were.
like, I caught stories, but never really any
like actual full on interactions or flying with
those guys. Which is unfortunate, shared coffee
with them a couple of times, that kind of thing.
But yeah, most of the guys that I've met had
kind of kind of hung it up. And, and we're just
happy in retirement. Happy not being in an aircraft
that shook the entire time anymore. Yeah. Whilst
being shot at. Yeah. All right. Well, then the
last question before we make sure where people
can find you. And the services that you offer
as well. What do you do to decompress? Ooh, I
get out in nature. That's it, man. I take my
shoes off. I take my shoes off. I take my shirt
off. And I go walk around in nature. So yeah,
where people can find me. The goal is that nobody
can find me. But that's it. Because that's always
been the great reset for me. Is that this is
a hustle and bustle job in a hustle and bustle
community. I look forward to just quiet, quiet
moments. It's one of the things about the apex
predator interactions. You can't be anywhere
else but where you are in those moments. That's
the beauty of it. You're not worried about bills.
You're not worried about getting dumped. You're
not worried about missing this person's birthday.
You are completely in the moment because the
nature of the animal that you're interacting
with deserves that respect. And as intense as
it is, It's incredibly peaceful for that very
reason. So that's where you find me. There are
myths about what you should do if you face a
shark, like one big one you hear. I don't know
if it's a myth even, but they say, well, punch
it in the nose. Well, try and punch people in
the nose. It's actually harder than you think.
I don't know about a shark. What are some of
the humorous myths that you heard about sharks
and gators? And then what are some of the things
that are truths as far as people? But increasing
their survivability, God forbid, they are faced
by surprise. Yeah, sure. I mean, the worst one
I've ever heard is, you know, swim away as fast
as you can. That's might as well be a ring in
the dinner bell. But I've heard the nose punches,
the eye gouges, all that kind of stuff. At the
end of the day, the beauty of all these wild
animals is that they're very honest, right? Like
it's way easier than people. They're not trying
to trick you. They're not trying to pull one
over on you. But the biggest deterrent for any...
natural predator, especially in the water. Can't
speak to really like the giant stuff like bears
and that kind of thing. But eye contact is your
cage. Eye contact is the number one solve. They're
all ambush predators. So if you can solidify
eye contact and let them know that you're aware
of them 100 % fully and that you're on their
radar the entire time they're looking at you.
They will keep a distance. Wildlife and life
in nature is too rough and tumble to get into
some fight. If they get hurt, they die. So if
they can't sneak up, it's a far cry for them
to actually want to put in the effort, burn the
calories to actually try and tussle with you.
So just keep your eyes on the prize. That will
usually serve you through. So humans, the only
ones that get their chest all puffed out when
you make eye contact. Yeah. Yeah. Some little
league, little league t -ball game or at a bar.
Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, speaking of that,
then if people first want to learn about the
guiding and those kinds of things that you do
in that area, where are the best places to go
for that? Oh man, just, just come to social media.
Just my Instagram. I'm an open book. They can
DM me. They can send me a message. You drop a
comment. We're, Yeah, always open to talk and
interact with people that either want to learn
more or come join us out for a dive or do something.
So easy to find. What's your handle on social
media? What is it? Cameron C? Hold on. You're
going to have to edit this part. That's all right.
I don't remember. Yeah. It's chriscameron, my
name, dot cc. chriscameron .cc. Perfect. That's
it. All right. Yeah. Well, Chris, I want to thank
you so much. It's been such an amazing conversation.
Thank you to Drew again. But I mean, you know,
you've got this person that works in law enforcement,
then it's wow, they're a pilot in law enforcement.
That's interesting. Oh, by the way, they dive
with sharks and all this kind of thing. So, so
many areas there. But again, the parallels when
we're talking about excellence, and, you know,
the, the, what's the right word of saying? Fuck,
I'm going to have to edit that out now. What
am I trying to say? You're on a roll. Yeah, I
know. I was doing really well. We got to one
minute 36. All right. And the minute margin for
error when it comes to mistakes in what you do
is the same for us. We push the wrong drug on
a child and they're dead. So, so many parallels
between the expertise that you have and a lot
of the people listening. So I want to thank you
so much for being so generous with your time
today and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast.
thank you James thank you for everything you
do man we really appreciate it thanks for having
me