WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr, yet

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another company that's doing great things for

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the first responder community. As a strength

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and conditioning coach myself who also trains

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tactical athletes, dissemination of wellness

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information is one of the biggest challenges.

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Now TeamBuilder is the premier strength and conditioning

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there is a full exercise library. So you, the

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personal trainer, does not have to create that

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within your own department. Secondly, you can

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send out programming, but also individualize,

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which I love. So you blanket program for everyone.

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someone's need to maybe drop some body composition,

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rather than having to write a program for every

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single person on their own. TeamBuildr also

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with wearables. And I think one of the most important

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things is obviously it tracks. To me, it's imperative

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that we as a profession start tracking our people

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from day one and then over the full span of their

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career, therefore catching potential wellness

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issues and injuries before they happen. Now,

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if you want to try TeamBuildr, they are offering

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you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast,

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a free 14 -day trial to experience all of the

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features. And if you want to take a deeper dive

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into TeamBuildr, listen to episode 1032 with

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Melissa Mercado or go to teambuilder .com. And

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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you

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think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome

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to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,

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my name is James Gearing and this week it is

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my absolute honor to welcome back onto the show

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for the third time, firefighter turned lawyer,

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Mike Cleland. Now in this third conversation,

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Mike wanted to go over all the changes in workman's

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comp laws when it comes to heart and lung presumption,

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cancer presumption, PTSD presumption. Not to

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mention topics like fitness standards in the

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fire service and the 24 -72 work week. Now, before

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we get to this incredible conversation, as I

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say every week, please just take a moment. Go

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to whichever app you listen to this on. Subscribe

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to the show. Leave feedback and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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almost 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in return

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is that you help share these incredible men and

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women's stories so I can get them to every single

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person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said... I welcome back onto

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the show Mike Cleland. Enjoy. Well, Mike, I want

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to start by saying thank you for coming back

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again. interviews i think we did in your office

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and now we're sitting here in my home in ocala

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so i just want to start by welcoming you to the

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behind the shield podcast for the third time

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great glad to be back thank you for having me

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so the first time we spoke we talked to kind

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of about your background a little bit the second

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time you were with one of your uh and we talked

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about the mental health app that they were developing

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at the time. Now we're going to kind of take

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a deep dive back into 2025 and then how we're

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doing with the Heart and Lung Bill and Cancer

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Bill and PTSD Bill and some other initiatives

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that you've got. Before we start, for people

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that haven't listened to the first or second,

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let's kind of start at the beginning and give

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an overview of your journey, where you kind of

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grew up and then your journey into the fire service.

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Sure. I've been in Central Florida, Orlando area

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since 1974 when I was just a child. When I was

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in high school, I was a much bigger guy. I was

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about 6 '4", 265, and I wanted to go to college

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and play football. football. That was my goal

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in life. And that was upended when I had a terrible

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knee injury in my senior year and they carried

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me off the field while all the scouts were lined

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up against the fence. So that was out. My brother,

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Steve, who's a year and a half older than me,

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was in the fire service at the time and convinced

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me that when my knee got better to try the fire

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service. I never dreamed of being a firefighter,

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never have a thought of it like most kids do.

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It just happened. And so I gave it a shot. In

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fact, I started in fire standards when I was

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a senior in high school, about to graduate. So

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when I graduated high school at age 17, Chief

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Chapman, City of Longwood, small city outside

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of Orlando, hired me on. I was riding tailboard

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at the time. And the rest is history. I spent

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26 years in the fire service. a big union advocate

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for my department. We organized in 1986. I retired

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in 07 as a battalion chief outside the bargaining

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unit, so I've seen both sides of the union management

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spectrum. I can appreciate both sides, but I'm

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a staunch union advocate, as was my brother.

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He served a total of 30 years, ended up in the

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city of Orlando. But at the end of my career,

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I knew that When I was going to be retiring at

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25, 26 years, I needed to get out. And that's

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in part because of, you know, years of pulling

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kids out of pools and cutting them out of cars

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and dealing with lots of different types of things

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that firefighters are faced with. I was 43 at

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the time. I knew I had to do something else.

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It was just time. I didn't want to see any more

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bad shit. And I thought, you know, what can I

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do at the age of 43? with a pension from the

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frs which which i appreciate very much today

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but i knew i couldn't do this job anymore so

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i was at ucf at the time getting my undergraduate

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degree in political science and somebody convinced

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me why don't you try law school one of the lawyers

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who represent the fpf and i i gave it a shot

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i i took the lsat at the time in 2002 -ish I

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was graduating at UCF with my undergrad. I took

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the LSAT, and it just so happened that FAMU Law

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School was resurrecting in the city of Orlando.

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So they had opened their doors. I graduated.

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I mean, I retired. I put my app in. They accepted

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me, and I went through their four -year program.

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Finished it up in about three and a half years

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while I was still on the job. So when I retired

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in 07, that's when I took the bar and passed.

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I thought, you know what, I'm going to represent

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firefighters the rest of my life, you know, and

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so that's what I do today. A funny side note

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to that, you know, when I was in, I think it

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was my first year of law school, I was in property

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or contracts or some really difficult, boring

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law course, and I thought to myself, I'm 38 years

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old. what the hell am I doing? What am I doing?

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People hate lawyers as a rule, you know? And

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I thought, what can I do so that when I get out

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of here, people aren't going to look at me like,

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oh, you're just a lawyer. I vowed to be available.

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And so anybody who knows me and has hired me

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to help them, they know they get my cell phone,

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they can text, they can call nights, weekends,

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it doesn't matter. So if there was any redeeming

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quality of being an attorney, it is that I'm

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going to make myself available to all my clients.

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And today, I don't know, what is it, 17 years

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later, all of my clients are first responders,

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cops, firefighters, corrections officers. Beautiful.

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I want to go all the way back to 18 -year -old

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Mike. In all these conversations I've had now,

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it seems like the science really backs up the

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fact that people probably shouldn't go into this

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profession until they're 21, kind of like the

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cops, just from the development of the brain.

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When you reflect back now at the age that you

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entered, and let's say that we are fully staffed

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and people are lining up around the building

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to be firefighters again, like they were when

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I first got hired. So there was that demand,

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so you wouldn't have to pull from high schools.

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Do you think that 18 was too old, excuse me,

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too young in this journey for you? It's a fair

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question. I don't know if it's necessarily that

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it's age specific, but it's maturity and an understanding

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of what to expect. Back then, I was immature.

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I have an 18 -year -old son. He's immature. He's

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a kid. I mean, he makes decisions that I still

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shake my head at. I'm sure that's the way I was

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back then. But this was a career that was fascinating

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to me. It was intriguing to me. It was tough.

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And those were my instincts. I wanted to help.

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I thought it was a very cool job. Had I been

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more mature at the age of 20, 21, 22 years old,

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and had learned more about what the job entailed,

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i .e. seeing some really bad stuff, I probably

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would have at least tried to prepare myself a

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little better. I think when you're that age and

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you see stuff, you're working a trauma code in

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the middle of the interstate at 2 in the morning,

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or you have someone who's... Bodies burn beyond

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recognition, and you're picking them out of cars.

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That's really, really shocking. I knock on wood

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today because some of my clients suffer from

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PTSD that I made it out after 26 years of seeing

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a bunch of bad stuff and am able to cope. I made

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it out okay, and I represent some folks who didn't

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and aren't okay. So I don't know if it's age

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specific, but certainly maturity and with age

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comes maturity. So I get your take on maybe it's

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too young to put kids into this position, but

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it just happened the way it did. And I got lucky

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and got out. It'd be interesting to get your

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take on this. I have seen a massive correlation

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between people who really found themselves in

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the darkest places in our profession. And unaddressed

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childhood trauma. So I was in a house fire when

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I was four. Parents had a horrific divorce. Had

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another near -death experience when I was about

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12. And so there was a lot of stuff, but woven

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in just by chance, just by winning the address

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lottery. I grew up on a farm, so I was around.

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My dad was a veterinary surgeon, so he was healing.

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There was animals, there was nature, there was

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fresh food. I'm one of five kids, so the dining

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room table was always packed, you know, full

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of laughter and different people cycling through.

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So all the things that we know help heal people

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were just organically woven into my childhood.

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I was extremely fortunate. And so I never got

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to that darkest of places. Now, don't get me

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wrong, I had some low lows. You know, there's

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some things that happened with my son and some

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other things that, you know. definitely were

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a struggle, but not to the point of drowning

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in a bottle, not to the point of sitting there

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with a pistol. So when I reflect back now and

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hear about all these different stories, that

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seems to be one of the biggest common denominators.

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When people say, well, how come so -and -so is

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okay? Well, what was that other person's past?

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When you reflect on your early life, were there

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some strong healing elements that set you up

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for success with some of the struggles that you

00:12:00.129 --> 00:12:03.899
had when you were younger? You know, I didn't

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have a good childhood. I have a brother, Steve,

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I told you about. He was a firefighter 30 years.

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I lost my sister to ovarian cancer at age 24.

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My mom and father, my dad died at a very young

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age, 34, but he was also a very bad guy. He was

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brutal to my mother. I remember lying in bed

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at night hearing the screams. But we were too

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young to do anything. My mom, in effect, escaped

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with the three of us, my brother and my sister

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and I, and raised us on her own, worked two jobs.

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She was never around because she worked 8 to

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5, came home, showered, and then worked nights.

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So when I did see her on the weekends, it was

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short -lived. She was sleeping. She was tired.

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My childhood was pretty rough. I was also in

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a position where I had to become an adult really,

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really quickly. And I don't know why. I mean,

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my brother and sister, I just took it on to help

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raise them and steer them in the right direction.

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And so I was put into that situation very, very

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early in life. And so it, I think, helped me

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prepare. for the rigors of the fire department

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and anything else that I'd seen. I think I was

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hardened very, very young through nobody's fault.

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It was just the situation that my mom was in.

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She did the best she could. And then when I was

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early in the fire department, my sister developed

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cancer and ultimately passed. So that was really

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bad. And by then, my brother Steve and I were

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in the fire service, and then we just spent the

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rest of my mom's life taking care of her like

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she did us. When you reflect back now, what were

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the things between early life to today that you

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used to offload some of these checks? Because,

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I mean, you've touched on many of the bad calls

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that you've seen. What were the positive coping

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mechanisms that you learned into? You know, I

00:14:08.789 --> 00:14:15.389
don't know, James. I don't know that I necessarily

00:14:15.389 --> 00:14:19.789
did anything or had any coping mechanism. I mean,

00:14:19.809 --> 00:14:26.539
I saw a psychologist. In my, while I was in law

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school, just to talk about my childhood traumas.

00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:33.259
But I saw him for about six months. I believe

00:14:33.259 --> 00:14:35.299
that he helped me. I don't know that it necessarily

00:14:35.299 --> 00:14:39.759
helped me cope with seeing what I saw over all

00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:44.399
those years. But maybe it did. But I don't, some

00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:46.559
people meditate, some people do yoga, some people

00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:51.519
seek psychotherapy, things like that. I tell

00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:54.419
you what I do do, and that is I've been an avid

00:14:54.419 --> 00:15:00.100
gym rat. I stay in the gym every day for an hour,

00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:03.720
and I work out. I'm 61 now, so I'm far from what

00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:06.379
I used to be, but I make it a point to be in

00:15:06.379 --> 00:15:08.820
the gym seven days a week at least for an hour.

00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:13.779
If I really dig deep, it's probably that's where

00:15:13.779 --> 00:15:18.039
I get out my, not frustration, but deal with,

00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:22.019
you know, I get to disconnect. which is healthy,

00:15:22.139 --> 00:15:24.639
I think. Absolutely. I mean, that's one of mine,

00:15:24.700 --> 00:15:27.799
hands down. Yeah, yeah. What about transition?

00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:30.600
You, unlike many people, it's funny, you just

00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:32.080
met my wife a minute ago and we were talking

00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:34.399
about her graduating med school and she went

00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:37.059
into that at 40 years old. So I hope this is

00:15:37.059 --> 00:15:39.039
inspiring people that are listening, thinking

00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:41.840
they're too old to turn a page in their book.

00:15:42.019 --> 00:15:44.820
Absolutely not. But when you transitioned out

00:15:44.820 --> 00:15:46.320
of the fire service, a lot of people struggle

00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:48.519
with that loss of tribe, that loss of identity

00:15:48.519 --> 00:15:51.940
or purpose. What was your transition like? Because

00:15:51.940 --> 00:15:54.639
it's a very unique one, having another profession

00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:56.740
that you're kind of entering as you walk out

00:15:56.740 --> 00:15:58.860
the back door of a firehouse. Yeah. And by the

00:15:58.860 --> 00:16:00.799
way, I still get questions from young guys who

00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:03.059
are retiring either without fulfilling their

00:16:03.059 --> 00:16:07.200
25 or 30 years or folks who got in early like

00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:09.919
I did. And they're transitioning out at a relatively

00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:12.659
young age. And I always encourage them to go

00:16:12.659 --> 00:16:14.500
to law school. I do. I mean, a lot of them have

00:16:14.500 --> 00:16:16.299
undergraduate degrees, so they're set up for

00:16:16.299 --> 00:16:21.659
that. My transition was seamless simply because

00:16:21.659 --> 00:16:28.159
when I retired and had my law degree, I thought,

00:16:28.179 --> 00:16:32.840
what a great idea to represent solely first responders.

00:16:33.100 --> 00:16:35.519
So I get to stay connected, have conversations

00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:38.179
every day of my life with firefighters and cops,

00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:40.679
yet I don't have to go on the call at 3 o 'clock

00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:44.600
in the morning. I don't know who's looking down

00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:47.879
on me, but I worked my ass off. There's no question

00:16:47.879 --> 00:16:49.960
about it. I sacrificed about 10 years of my life

00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:52.340
for education. I didn't go out. I didn't do all

00:16:52.340 --> 00:16:55.940
those things that firefighters do and cops do.

00:16:56.240 --> 00:17:01.279
I stayed in the books. And a lot of firefighters

00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:03.080
have part -time jobs. And so on the two days

00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:05.640
off, they do other work. And I just kept my nose

00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:09.480
in the books. And it turned out that I... I guess

00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:11.500
I made the right decision. I'm super happy in

00:17:11.500 --> 00:17:13.400
my practice. I feel like I'm 30 years old, but

00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:16.220
I'm 61. I got another 10 or 15 years left in

00:17:16.220 --> 00:17:19.940
me. I know it because I just feel that good about

00:17:19.940 --> 00:17:23.440
what I do and about who I represent. So my transition

00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:28.619
was luckily seamless. But I encourage anybody

00:17:28.619 --> 00:17:30.519
who's getting out of the fire service to definitely

00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:33.680
find a vocation, whatever it is, to keep you

00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:36.990
busy. It seems like service is another... peace.

00:17:37.230 --> 00:17:38.990
I've had so many people, especially from the

00:17:38.990 --> 00:17:40.970
military, and while I went into finance, I went

00:17:40.970 --> 00:17:43.910
into real estate, and it just didn't work for

00:17:43.910 --> 00:17:45.549
them because they didn't feel like they were

00:17:45.549 --> 00:17:47.490
giving back. The moment they found whatever that

00:17:47.490 --> 00:17:49.269
profession was, and like you said, you got law,

00:17:49.450 --> 00:17:52.650
but still helping first responders. That seems

00:17:52.650 --> 00:17:54.470
to be the missing piece. And I always tell people

00:17:54.470 --> 00:17:57.569
this, you know, what we do in uniform, that's

00:17:57.569 --> 00:18:00.450
not who you are. Who you are is a kind, compassionate

00:18:00.450 --> 00:18:04.130
person who's courageously going to possibly sacrifice

00:18:04.130 --> 00:18:07.670
their their health, or even their life to protect

00:18:07.670 --> 00:18:10.529
other people. And at one point, you put a uniform

00:18:10.529 --> 00:18:13.990
on. So when you come out the back door, to me,

00:18:13.990 --> 00:18:16.450
you're the same exact person. You're someone

00:18:16.450 --> 00:18:19.049
that's brave enough to stand up and keep serving

00:18:19.049 --> 00:18:21.730
in your community. And so I think hearing people

00:18:21.730 --> 00:18:23.849
that have found professions like yourself, like

00:18:23.849 --> 00:18:26.710
me, even though I never anticipated being behind

00:18:26.710 --> 00:18:30.269
a microphone as a profession, that's such a healing

00:18:30.269 --> 00:18:33.130
transition because your mission hasn't changed.

00:18:33.349 --> 00:18:35.369
You're still helping people. No, you're right.

00:18:35.470 --> 00:18:38.109
I mean, you put the uniform on, you're still

00:18:38.109 --> 00:18:40.490
the same person when you took it off, when you

00:18:40.490 --> 00:18:44.529
take it off. I think a lot of guys, firefighters,

00:18:44.990 --> 00:18:49.769
women and men, when they transition out, let's

00:18:49.769 --> 00:18:54.250
assume that they're in their 50s or 60s and they're

00:18:54.250 --> 00:18:57.210
going out into retirement and they plan to do

00:18:57.210 --> 00:18:59.390
X, Y, and Z. You know, they move to Montana and

00:18:59.390 --> 00:19:02.839
go fishing and do what retired people do. I get

00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:06.380
calls all the time from people like that who

00:19:06.380 --> 00:19:12.299
say, gee, it's just, I need more. I was so immersed

00:19:12.299 --> 00:19:17.019
in it, giving, giving back, serving, all of those

00:19:17.019 --> 00:19:20.160
adjectives to describe the actual person, that

00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:24.230
when they go from that to nothing. in terms of

00:19:24.230 --> 00:19:26.230
that i don't mean their lives aren't worth anything

00:19:26.230 --> 00:19:29.750
they just they transition into having fun fishing

00:19:29.750 --> 00:19:32.049
or hunting and doing those types of things there

00:19:32.049 --> 00:19:35.549
is a sense of loss i think um and i and i get

00:19:35.549 --> 00:19:38.089
that from them uh when i speak to them i speak

00:19:38.089 --> 00:19:42.829
to firefighters all day long um and so i yeah

00:19:42.829 --> 00:19:45.529
man transitioning out is a difficult thing uh

00:19:45.529 --> 00:19:51.089
and also i think it gives firefighters and cops

00:19:51.089 --> 00:19:54.589
and people who have experienced trauma a lot

00:19:54.589 --> 00:19:59.369
of time to think and that can be you know not

00:19:59.369 --> 00:20:02.430
a good thing yeah uh their their minds become

00:20:02.430 --> 00:20:04.910
preoccupied with what their careers were and

00:20:04.910 --> 00:20:07.950
what they saw sometimes i'll reflect back and

00:20:07.950 --> 00:20:10.750
then i discard it it's almost like an ocd it's

00:20:10.750 --> 00:20:12.630
a bad thought that you can't it's an irrational

00:20:12.630 --> 00:20:15.549
thought that you can't discard and some people

00:20:15.549 --> 00:20:17.809
I mean I speak to people all the time who have

00:20:17.809 --> 00:20:20.930
that it's sad and so you know I try to steer

00:20:20.930 --> 00:20:23.950
them in the right direction absolutely well I

00:20:23.950 --> 00:20:27.029
want to go it'd be interesting your journey into

00:20:27.029 --> 00:20:31.769
the fire service in the 80s walk us through the

00:20:31.769 --> 00:20:34.910
support or lack thereof for the physical and

00:20:34.910 --> 00:20:36.750
mental health and kind of give us a timeline

00:20:36.750 --> 00:20:41.319
from then to where we are now sure I graduated

00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:45.980
high school in 82. I was a volunteer until March

00:20:45.980 --> 00:20:48.559
of 83 is when I became a full -time firefighter.

00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:53.839
I served until 2007. In the 80s, we didn't have

00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:57.519
any mental health, and I would say that transitioned

00:20:57.519 --> 00:20:59.619
into the early 90s. We didn't have any mental

00:20:59.619 --> 00:21:06.000
health, at least not that I was aware of, outlet.

00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:09.279
that the department sponsored. And I don't think

00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:12.019
anybody did at the time. I do remember, though,

00:21:12.059 --> 00:21:15.259
when I was a lieutenant, which had to have been

00:21:15.259 --> 00:21:22.799
in the mid to late 90s, CISD, that acronym for

00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:26.279
critical incident stress debriefing, became a

00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:29.759
thing. And all the departments, it was Seminole

00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:31.440
County, and we were in the middle of it with

00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:33.640
Altamont, Longwood, and Winter Springs, and Castleberry.

00:21:34.269 --> 00:21:39.369
I chose to represent our department in that regard.

00:21:39.609 --> 00:21:43.349
And so I think we went to a course or two or

00:21:43.349 --> 00:21:45.390
three courses and were certified as the critical

00:21:45.390 --> 00:21:49.250
incident stress debriefing guy. You know what

00:21:49.250 --> 00:21:53.609
I mean? The flag bearer for our department. That

00:21:53.609 --> 00:21:59.869
brought into the fold at the time EAP, the Employee

00:21:59.869 --> 00:22:02.670
Assistance Program, with our department anyway.

00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:09.380
So once the CISD teams were established and EAP

00:22:09.380 --> 00:22:16.740
came in, then the mental health part of the job

00:22:16.740 --> 00:22:20.220
became important. I think it could have been

00:22:20.220 --> 00:22:24.569
much more. important, become better funded, and

00:22:24.569 --> 00:22:26.630
we could get doctors on board and things like

00:22:26.630 --> 00:22:29.950
that. But at the time, I do remember coming back

00:22:29.950 --> 00:22:32.210
from a few scenes that are really nasty. We sit

00:22:32.210 --> 00:22:35.569
around the kitchen table, make some coffee and

00:22:35.569 --> 00:22:37.450
sit around and talk to each other about how we

00:22:37.450 --> 00:22:43.069
felt. But again, in the 90s, certainly in the

00:22:43.069 --> 00:22:47.809
80s and into the 90s, it became a stigma to have

00:22:47.809 --> 00:22:51.490
the need for help. I think it's still that way

00:22:51.490 --> 00:22:55.940
today, but not as much. Unfortunately, in my

00:22:55.940 --> 00:23:03.099
opinion, suicides have just raised the awareness

00:23:03.099 --> 00:23:08.380
of the need for help tenfold. Unfortunately,

00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:11.119
it costs all those lives and are costing lives

00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:14.500
today, as we saw recently from the villages.

00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:21.119
The law as it relates to PTSD, if I can sort

00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:24.619
of transition into that, was really bad in the

00:23:24.619 --> 00:23:29.240
70s, 80s, 90s, and even into the 2000s. And under

00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:31.880
workers' comp, workers' comp provides two things,

00:23:31.940 --> 00:23:35.720
medical care and wage loss. Well, for what the

00:23:35.720 --> 00:23:37.960
statute considers mental or nervous injuries,

00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:42.220
which include PTSD, it only provided medical

00:23:42.220 --> 00:23:47.559
care. So if you suffered from... any kind of

00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:52.180
trauma at work, then the claim could be filed

00:23:52.180 --> 00:23:55.200
under workers' comp. And by the way, first responders,

00:23:55.380 --> 00:23:58.579
especially cops, are very reluctant to even file

00:23:58.579 --> 00:24:01.079
the claim. But those who do and those who did

00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:03.519
over those years could only get a counselor.

00:24:03.779 --> 00:24:08.019
And I'm not demeaning that, but there's no psychiatrist

00:24:08.019 --> 00:24:09.779
appointment. There's none of that. It's simply

00:24:09.779 --> 00:24:13.759
some mental health counselor. to deal with your

00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:16.579
problem. And if you were incapable of working,

00:24:16.740 --> 00:24:19.140
whether it was a week, a month, six months, a

00:24:19.140 --> 00:24:22.380
year, because of that mental or nervous injury

00:24:22.380 --> 00:24:25.299
or post -traumatic stress, you could not get

00:24:25.299 --> 00:24:27.839
wage loss, the 66 and two -thirds that workers'

00:24:27.940 --> 00:24:32.859
compensation pays for a broken leg. So for years

00:24:32.859 --> 00:24:37.160
and years, I never understood how that made any

00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:42.549
sense. I was also in the legislature from 2012

00:24:42.549 --> 00:24:46.170
to 2014, so I know what the process is like to

00:24:46.170 --> 00:24:49.529
get a bill through. It's terribly difficult.

00:24:50.150 --> 00:24:54.069
Nevertheless, when I was up there, I used to

00:24:54.069 --> 00:24:59.269
think, why in the hell aren't people, first responders

00:24:59.269 --> 00:25:04.529
who suffer from post -traumatic stress, given

00:25:04.529 --> 00:25:07.619
wage loss? If I'm on a roof cut in a hole and

00:25:07.619 --> 00:25:09.539
I fall through and break my leg and I'm off for

00:25:09.539 --> 00:25:12.140
six months, I'm getting wage loss and medical

00:25:12.140 --> 00:25:16.180
care. Yet I'm traumatized by what I've witnessed,

00:25:16.259 --> 00:25:19.140
whether it was cumulative or a mass casualty

00:25:19.140 --> 00:25:21.640
incident, and I can't work. I can't focus for

00:25:21.640 --> 00:25:24.660
six months. I get medical care, but I don't get

00:25:24.660 --> 00:25:27.619
any wage loss. These injuries are no less important

00:25:27.619 --> 00:25:29.799
and in most cases more deadly than an injury

00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:33.099
by accident, that first scenario I created. So

00:25:33.099 --> 00:25:38.180
finally... With the help of the FPF and others,

00:25:38.339 --> 00:25:41.380
and I was a consultant a little bit on that issue,

00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:45.059
we got a bill passed that now provides for wage

00:25:45.059 --> 00:25:50.480
loss. However, it only provides wage loss if

00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:54.779
you fit the criteria. There are enumerated criteria

00:25:54.779 --> 00:25:56.839
under which you can get wage loss and medical

00:25:56.839 --> 00:25:59.420
care, and they are witnessing the death of a

00:25:59.420 --> 00:26:03.480
child or a mass casualty incident. injuries that

00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:06.319
shock the conscience, whatever that means. So

00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:09.180
those cases are easily denied, and you have to

00:26:09.180 --> 00:26:12.799
fight for that wage loss. It was a step forward

00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:16.660
for sure, James, but it wasn't what we wanted.

00:26:17.940 --> 00:26:20.619
And to get back in, to knock on the door again

00:26:20.619 --> 00:26:24.380
in the Florida legislature to address the same

00:26:24.380 --> 00:26:28.160
issue and increase those benefits. I know by

00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:30.619
experience it doesn't happen the following session.

00:26:30.779 --> 00:26:34.160
It's sessions later, years and years later. They

00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:37.019
don't have the appetite. They feel like they

00:26:37.019 --> 00:26:41.059
gave so much that to come back and want more,

00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:47.059
politics becomes involved and it's nasty. In

00:26:47.059 --> 00:26:50.500
your opinion, knowing that, from what I understand,

00:26:50.660 --> 00:26:53.079
people have told me this, that... in the military

00:26:53.079 --> 00:26:56.579
in the va you can self -report ptsd and you will

00:26:56.579 --> 00:26:58.759
have access to certain things and that's obviously

00:26:58.759 --> 00:27:01.259
growing and they're in texas they're fighting

00:27:01.259 --> 00:27:03.359
obviously for you know ayahuasca and some of

00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:05.079
these other plant medicines that are having a

00:27:05.079 --> 00:27:07.900
lot of success as well but at least you know

00:27:07.900 --> 00:27:10.059
therapy and and sadly a lot of meds are thrown

00:27:10.059 --> 00:27:13.220
at them too but someone is at least there to

00:27:13.220 --> 00:27:16.720
help someone is trying to help why has there

00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:19.710
been so much resistance in the first responder

00:27:19.710 --> 00:27:22.109
professions, even though it's apples to apples

00:27:22.109 --> 00:27:23.930
pretty much with our military men and women,

00:27:24.009 --> 00:27:26.410
that when you do and see the kind of things that

00:27:26.410 --> 00:27:28.930
we do in uniform, more often than not, there

00:27:28.930 --> 00:27:31.369
will be an impact on the mental health of our

00:27:31.369 --> 00:27:35.069
people. This is my opinion only, but I think

00:27:35.069 --> 00:27:38.170
there's a skepticism as a rule among legislators

00:27:38.170 --> 00:27:44.740
that you can somehow fake. A post -traumatic

00:27:44.740 --> 00:27:48.720
stress or a mental or nervous injury. Now, doctors

00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:52.980
will sit in committee and scream at them that

00:27:52.980 --> 00:27:55.640
you can't. They know how to detect whether you're

00:27:55.640 --> 00:28:05.220
feigning a post -traumatic stress injury. I handled

00:28:05.220 --> 00:28:08.839
a PTSD case in Central Florida in front of a

00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:11.079
board of trustees for a line -of -duty disability

00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:14.670
pension. I won't mention the department. And

00:28:14.670 --> 00:28:21.170
simply because the firefighter had some childhood

00:28:21.170 --> 00:28:26.529
trauma that they couldn't vote to make the decision

00:28:26.529 --> 00:28:32.369
that what my client had witnessed over his career

00:28:32.369 --> 00:28:35.869
caused his PTSD because it was mixed somehow

00:28:35.869 --> 00:28:40.890
with childhood divorce and he had some abuse

00:28:40.890 --> 00:28:43.940
a little bit, whatever. They couldn't. pull it

00:28:43.940 --> 00:28:48.920
together, even in the face of their own IME,

00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:52.559
their board's expert that my client went to,

00:28:52.660 --> 00:28:56.420
who suggested the causation was the job, the

00:28:56.420 --> 00:29:00.480
cause was the job. They couldn't do it. And we

00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:02.900
lost that case. It was terribly unfortunate.

00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:07.740
That, together with firefighters who have military

00:29:07.740 --> 00:29:15.869
experience, or or who have faced any amount of

00:29:15.869 --> 00:29:19.470
childhood trauma, I think the legislature just

00:29:19.470 --> 00:29:24.369
doesn't want to acknowledge that post -traumatic

00:29:24.369 --> 00:29:28.009
stress, without enumerating all of these things,

00:29:28.289 --> 00:29:32.210
is worthy of the 66 and two -thirds that workers'

00:29:32.309 --> 00:29:36.549
compensation pays. It's tragic. There's this

00:29:36.549 --> 00:29:39.029
idea that the insurance lobby, League of Cities,

00:29:39.109 --> 00:29:43.559
Association of Counties, And these interest groups

00:29:43.559 --> 00:29:45.980
get in the legislature's offices. They line up

00:29:45.980 --> 00:29:48.259
outside your door. And I was there for two years.

00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:54.859
I was immersed in it. The League, the Association

00:29:54.859 --> 00:29:58.200
of Counties, the other insurance lobbyists, they

00:29:58.200 --> 00:30:00.559
get in there and they convince these legislators

00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:04.359
that the floodgates will open and that money

00:30:04.359 --> 00:30:06.160
is going to come pouring out of the system and

00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:07.960
cost them. The insurance rates are going to go

00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:11.299
up. They convince these folks of that. At the

00:30:11.299 --> 00:30:14.039
same time, these folks who are listening and

00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:15.779
vote in their favor are the ones whose pockets

00:30:15.779 --> 00:30:18.559
are lined when they run for reelection. So I

00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:22.799
don't want to get too in the weeds about politics,

00:30:22.859 --> 00:30:26.200
but I've done all of that. I practiced law. I

00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:27.619
was a firefighter. I was in the legislature.

00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:30.680
It all comes together. You know what I mean?

00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:35.200
It comes full circle. So that creates the difficulty

00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:40.079
in getting what should be. uh in the law in the

00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:44.900
law i feel like we've shot ourselves in the foot

00:30:44.900 --> 00:30:47.619
by the limited understanding of mental health

00:30:47.619 --> 00:30:50.019
in our profession i think you know like you said

00:30:50.019 --> 00:30:51.900
in the 80s we weren't having this conversation

00:30:51.900 --> 00:30:54.240
so as people say they did the best of what they

00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:58.220
had what should be happening in 2025 though is

00:30:58.220 --> 00:31:00.180
people should be saying well you wouldn't have

00:31:00.180 --> 00:31:02.160
any firefighters if it wasn't for childhood trauma

00:31:03.169 --> 00:31:06.109
if someone with a beautiful disney -like upbringing

00:31:06.109 --> 00:31:08.509
is not going to raise their hand and say i will

00:31:08.509 --> 00:31:10.490
go and see that horrific shit i will cut people

00:31:10.490 --> 00:31:12.789
out of cars i will go and retrieve the burnt

00:31:12.789 --> 00:31:16.230
cadavers they're not this is a you know it's

00:31:16.230 --> 00:31:18.190
a beautiful thing that some of the people that

00:31:18.190 --> 00:31:22.759
have had these really rough upbringings want

00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:25.240
to be the protector you go to a crossroads you

00:31:25.240 --> 00:31:27.359
know james and mike can either go one way and

00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:29.660
we become criminals or we go another way and

00:31:29.660 --> 00:31:32.119
become helpers it's pretty much you look at the

00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:35.460
aces store uh the uh adverse childhood experience

00:31:35.460 --> 00:31:39.480
score we supposedly on average have one of about

00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:42.500
six out of ten and so do incarcerated men and

00:31:42.500 --> 00:31:45.319
women so you know hurt people can hurt people

00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:47.079
or they can help people depending on their path

00:31:47.079 --> 00:31:50.730
so understanding that that A lot of people that

00:31:50.730 --> 00:31:52.950
are going to be good firefighters, cops, you

00:31:52.950 --> 00:31:55.230
know, prison guards, whatever, even dispatchers,

00:31:55.230 --> 00:31:57.269
especially the ones that are out in the streets

00:31:57.269 --> 00:32:00.460
though. We are going to have some stuff. You've

00:32:00.460 --> 00:32:02.279
got some stuff. I've got some stuff. Now, the

00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:05.019
goal is to get people to understand that we need

00:32:05.019 --> 00:32:07.400
to work on that at the front door and create

00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:10.140
resilience. And therefore, those don't become

00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:12.940
buried down. And then, you know, we'll rear their

00:32:12.940 --> 00:32:14.859
head later on. But they become strength. They

00:32:14.859 --> 00:32:17.680
become resilience. But I've said this ever since

00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:20.619
I put my first app in for Miami. It was a pre

00:32:20.619 --> 00:32:23.700
-app for Miami Beach. And I was honest about

00:32:23.700 --> 00:32:25.619
some stuff I'd done in the past. And he screwed

00:32:25.619 --> 00:32:28.089
it up and threw it at me. And I was like, oh,

00:32:28.170 --> 00:32:30.710
so you got to lie to be a firefighter. And I've

00:32:30.710 --> 00:32:32.609
lied through polygraphs, lied through. And again,

00:32:32.730 --> 00:32:34.869
it wasn't anything horrific, but I'd done some

00:32:34.869 --> 00:32:36.609
stuff when I was younger. Ironically, substances

00:32:36.609 --> 00:32:41.869
that are now known to heal PTSD. But we project

00:32:41.869 --> 00:32:43.829
this image that we want choir boys and girls.

00:32:44.250 --> 00:32:48.009
But that's a complete facade. And it's not, as

00:32:48.009 --> 00:32:50.009
you pointed out, usually one thing. It's death

00:32:50.009 --> 00:32:52.750
by a thousand cuts. It is the unaddressed childhood

00:32:52.750 --> 00:32:55.069
trauma and the sleep deprivation and the organizational

00:32:55.069 --> 00:32:57.049
betrayal and the things that we've seen and alcohol

00:32:57.049 --> 00:33:01.069
and blah, blah, blah. So it really just smacks

00:33:01.069 --> 00:33:04.690
of the complete lack of desire to really understand

00:33:04.690 --> 00:33:09.230
this population and put in. so that as a young

00:33:09.230 --> 00:33:11.609
man or woman enters our profession, we're understanding

00:33:11.609 --> 00:33:13.609
at the front door the kind of human they are.

00:33:13.710 --> 00:33:15.890
We're addressing not just their physical fitness,

00:33:15.950 --> 00:33:18.569
but their mental health. And then that way, as

00:33:18.569 --> 00:33:20.410
they walk through, we've removed the barriers

00:33:20.410 --> 00:33:23.509
of entry to maintaining fitness standards, to

00:33:23.509 --> 00:33:26.089
maintaining the ability to seek counseling or

00:33:26.089 --> 00:33:28.329
whatever the other thing is. And you have a healthy

00:33:28.329 --> 00:33:30.369
workforce, which as we talked about before we

00:33:30.369 --> 00:33:33.170
hit record, just like the 42 -hour work week,

00:33:33.309 --> 00:33:37.579
that is proactive and fiscally sound. But what

00:33:37.579 --> 00:33:40.480
we do is this kind of false economy where we

00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:42.740
just pretend none of that is real. And then when

00:33:42.740 --> 00:33:45.460
they break, we make them fight for every single

00:33:45.460 --> 00:33:47.059
penny. And you have these men and women with

00:33:47.059 --> 00:33:50.559
cancer and career ending back injuries and mental

00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:53.819
health crises that now have all this added stress

00:33:53.819 --> 00:33:57.940
to even just get the be taken care of for the

00:33:57.940 --> 00:34:02.329
ultimate breaking from. not solely the job, but

00:34:02.329 --> 00:34:04.869
the kind of person that would even enter the

00:34:04.869 --> 00:34:08.590
job in the first place. Yeah, in that regard,

00:34:08.650 --> 00:34:10.670
the biggest disappointment coming out of this

00:34:10.670 --> 00:34:14.329
new PTSD bill, and again, I'm not trying to diminish

00:34:14.329 --> 00:34:17.070
what the FPF, Bernie Rock, all those guys up

00:34:17.070 --> 00:34:19.849
there did because it's a step forward. The biggest

00:34:19.849 --> 00:34:23.010
disappointment to me was that the legislature,

00:34:23.030 --> 00:34:27.750
who has zero, I don't know, 400 guys up there.

00:34:28.300 --> 00:34:34.320
legislators have zero idea what mental health

00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:36.960
in the fire service is or in law enforcement.

00:34:37.400 --> 00:34:42.039
The end product was that you couldn't get wage

00:34:42.039 --> 00:34:44.719
loss unless you had an acute injury. One of those

00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:47.340
enumerated things. When in fact, I would bet

00:34:47.340 --> 00:34:51.340
a majority, a vast majority of mental health,

00:34:51.400 --> 00:34:55.460
including PTSD, injuries are cumulative. You

00:34:55.460 --> 00:34:58.760
know, I started in 82. By the time I got out

00:34:58.760 --> 00:35:02.739
in 07, I would never meet one of those criteria

00:35:02.739 --> 00:35:06.920
because I'm okay. But the cumulative effect of

00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:10.300
everything I saw is not addressed in that bill.

00:35:11.400 --> 00:35:14.179
So you're dealing with people making laws, and

00:35:14.179 --> 00:35:15.880
I'm not even talking about the state level. We're

00:35:15.880 --> 00:35:17.880
talking county, municipal government, all the

00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:21.000
way down to the bottom. They're just not trained

00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:26.429
in it. So our approach has to be different. And

00:35:26.429 --> 00:35:30.409
I don't think it comes in the way of educating

00:35:30.409 --> 00:35:34.550
any particular legislator about mental health.

00:35:34.650 --> 00:35:38.949
Why? Because they're only there as long as their

00:35:38.949 --> 00:35:41.369
term allows them to be. So it's all going to

00:35:41.369 --> 00:35:42.750
go over their head. They're not going to listen.

00:35:42.929 --> 00:35:44.909
So the approach has to be instead of trying to

00:35:44.909 --> 00:35:47.610
get to Tallahassee and convincing them that they

00:35:47.610 --> 00:35:49.710
need to provide wage loss in case someone gets

00:35:49.710 --> 00:35:53.230
hurt with a mental injury, we've got to have

00:35:53.230 --> 00:35:56.750
a different approach. One of the approaches is

00:35:56.750 --> 00:35:58.250
something that you're involved, Second Alarm

00:35:58.250 --> 00:36:01.849
Project and these other programs who educate

00:36:01.849 --> 00:36:05.909
the first responders themselves and management

00:36:05.909 --> 00:36:09.130
to some degree. I taught Hart Long at the last...

00:36:09.800 --> 00:36:14.579
Second Alarm Project. And in the group were admin.

00:36:14.699 --> 00:36:16.539
There were some chiefs. There were some HR people.

00:36:16.699 --> 00:36:21.840
So I think instead of going to people who make

00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:24.320
the laws or who sit on county commissions or

00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:27.719
city commissions, it's to go the opposite way.

00:36:27.940 --> 00:36:30.920
It's to go from the ground up. You know, Ronald

00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:32.699
Reagan, who I thought was a wonderful president,

00:36:32.940 --> 00:36:35.500
he had that supply -side economics. It's trickle

00:36:35.500 --> 00:36:37.460
down. You know, you give all the tax breaks to

00:36:37.460 --> 00:36:39.079
the big and it'll trickle down to the bottom.

00:36:39.659 --> 00:36:42.739
It's the same concept with what we've been doing

00:36:42.739 --> 00:36:46.460
and probably should continue to do with mental

00:36:46.460 --> 00:36:49.599
health laws. But it ain't working. It's just

00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:53.480
not working. So kudos to you, Second Alarm Project

00:36:53.480 --> 00:36:58.199
and organizations like that who now want to get

00:36:58.199 --> 00:37:02.280
in on the ground and teach the firefighters about

00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:05.139
resources, about what to expect, about signs

00:37:05.139 --> 00:37:07.780
and symptoms that you could pick up. pick up

00:37:07.780 --> 00:37:10.880
on a colleague, get them help. Make it private.

00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:14.320
Make it at least as private as you can so that

00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:16.679
they will reach out. The reluctance is just...

00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:20.639
Imagine the reluctance of a police officer. Imagine

00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:23.739
a guy or a gal with a family at home, two, three

00:37:23.739 --> 00:37:27.619
kids, who carries a gun every day to work, is

00:37:27.619 --> 00:37:30.940
really wrecked, but knows that if he goes to

00:37:30.940 --> 00:37:33.340
the police chief or the sheriff and says, I have

00:37:33.340 --> 00:37:36.000
PTSD because the first thing is... being taken

00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:41.380
from is his gun. And so talk about a reluctance

00:37:41.380 --> 00:37:44.960
to come forward. I got a family to feed. I can't

00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:49.260
come forward. And I can't ask for help because

00:37:49.260 --> 00:37:50.980
they're going to take my gun and I won't have

00:37:50.980 --> 00:37:53.260
a salary and I burned all my leave and now what?

00:37:54.440 --> 00:37:59.420
So I have to deal with it. And that's the tragedy

00:37:59.420 --> 00:38:03.840
of it all. So I don't know the answer. I just

00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:07.280
don't. The ground -up approach to me is a better

00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:12.139
one. Yeah, I agree. And this is what I talk about

00:38:12.139 --> 00:38:14.340
a lot. I want to get people educated and angry.

00:38:14.780 --> 00:38:17.860
Yeah, yeah. The child labor laws didn't come

00:38:17.860 --> 00:38:20.079
from people shrugging their shoulders and doing

00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:21.800
nothing. They came from them saying, why are

00:38:21.800 --> 00:38:24.559
we putting children up chimneys and why are they

00:38:24.559 --> 00:38:27.460
working in factories? You know, the Million Man

00:38:27.460 --> 00:38:30.889
March was a million men and women. It wasn't

00:38:30.889 --> 00:38:34.030
like Steve and James, you know, just, you know,

00:38:34.030 --> 00:38:37.210
there was so many people. So when a lot of people

00:38:37.210 --> 00:38:40.670
rise up together, things change. And this is

00:38:40.670 --> 00:38:42.829
what we were talking before I hit record. This

00:38:42.829 --> 00:38:45.329
is what is maddening to me is even just getting

00:38:45.329 --> 00:38:48.309
our, you know, my rank, the firefighters, to

00:38:48.309 --> 00:38:51.550
go, for example, why are we working 56 hours

00:38:51.550 --> 00:38:53.469
a week? Why am I now being forced to work 80

00:38:53.469 --> 00:38:56.809
from the leadership failures of people in government

00:38:56.809 --> 00:38:59.980
buildings that work 40 hours a week? Like getting

00:38:59.980 --> 00:39:02.260
people to just understand, look, this isn't right.

00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:05.480
And all these deaths are not right. You talk

00:39:05.480 --> 00:39:07.599
about law enforcement. I saw the other day, I

00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:09.579
think it was L .A. County Sheriff's Department

00:39:09.579 --> 00:39:14.940
have 12 suicides, law enforcement suicides under

00:39:14.940 --> 00:39:17.539
this. The point was made under the certain sheriff

00:39:17.539 --> 00:39:19.639
thing that's in at the moment. So that's just

00:39:19.639 --> 00:39:22.519
one department, 12 people taking their own lives

00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:23.980
where they're trying to protect other people

00:39:23.980 --> 00:39:27.760
and stay alive in their job. And so I agree 100%.

00:39:27.760 --> 00:39:30.699
We have to really break down these walls. We

00:39:30.699 --> 00:39:32.199
have to understand that our first responders

00:39:32.199 --> 00:39:34.460
are overworked, underslept, and their ability

00:39:34.460 --> 00:39:38.639
to critically think is diminished. And get them

00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:41.019
to understand that and then realize that, as

00:39:41.019 --> 00:39:42.820
I'm sure when you entered and certainly when

00:39:42.820 --> 00:39:45.500
I did, go back to when it was so competitive

00:39:45.500 --> 00:39:48.420
that you had people lining up around the buildings.

00:39:48.519 --> 00:39:52.380
No one can tell me that recruitment is how it's

00:39:52.380 --> 00:39:54.829
supposed to be now. Like where I live in Marion

00:39:54.829 --> 00:39:57.949
County, they're just scraping from everywhere

00:39:57.949 --> 00:40:00.489
they can to get people to fill seats. And within

00:40:00.489 --> 00:40:02.230
that group that are going to be some phenomenal

00:40:02.230 --> 00:40:03.730
firefighters and they're going to be some people

00:40:03.730 --> 00:40:05.369
that are going to absolute liability to their

00:40:05.369 --> 00:40:07.750
department, you know, their own health and then

00:40:07.750 --> 00:40:10.690
their ability to deliver service. So it is up

00:40:10.690 --> 00:40:12.550
to us because I can tell you for eight and a

00:40:12.550 --> 00:40:14.670
half years, I've thought that unions were going

00:40:14.670 --> 00:40:17.409
to step in and champion this. And I thought that

00:40:17.409 --> 00:40:19.690
chiefs, you know, I mean, I'll put it out here.

00:40:20.349 --> 00:40:23.050
Danny Alvarez had this bill put out that recommended

00:40:23.050 --> 00:40:25.730
the 42 -hour workweek in the state of Florida.

00:40:26.010 --> 00:40:29.409
And the Florida Fire Chiefs Association put out

00:40:29.409 --> 00:40:32.710
an email saying that they support the bill except

00:40:32.710 --> 00:40:35.429
the 42 -hour workweek. Well, if the men and women

00:40:35.429 --> 00:40:37.809
that stand at that podium and do their crocodile

00:40:37.809 --> 00:40:41.670
tears speech at the firefighter funeral are then

00:40:41.670 --> 00:40:43.909
opposing a workweek that would actually be healthy

00:40:43.909 --> 00:40:46.530
for their men and women. To me, that underlines

00:40:46.530 --> 00:40:49.530
the level of support or lack thereof from them.

00:40:49.690 --> 00:40:52.630
The IAFF has never talked about the work week,

00:40:52.710 --> 00:40:54.389
even though now they're based in Boston, who

00:40:54.389 --> 00:40:57.849
works 42 hours a week, 24 -72. So this is my

00:40:57.849 --> 00:41:00.469
point, is we've waited for the people that we've

00:41:00.469 --> 00:41:03.429
paid, people with the salaries and the bugles

00:41:03.429 --> 00:41:05.110
that should have been changing this, and they

00:41:05.110 --> 00:41:08.170
haven't. So it's up to us to million -man -march

00:41:08.170 --> 00:41:10.530
it ourselves. It's that simple. Yeah, I agree

00:41:10.530 --> 00:41:15.139
with that approach. Fire chiefs, I think, are

00:41:15.139 --> 00:41:18.400
reluctant to do much of anything that's controversial.

00:41:18.739 --> 00:41:22.659
That's been my experience. Typically, they're

00:41:22.659 --> 00:41:25.400
at the top, riding it out, making some money,

00:41:25.460 --> 00:41:29.840
get a pension, and go home. You get a rare exception

00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:32.619
to that rule with a fire chief who's a guy's

00:41:32.619 --> 00:41:34.659
guy, firefighter's firefighter, who's just going

00:41:34.659 --> 00:41:37.260
to champion the cause until he or she's out.

00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:42.400
But that's a rarity. And then above them are

00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:45.940
the commission and the county and state legislators

00:41:45.940 --> 00:41:50.420
and even in Congress and D .C. So there doesn't

00:41:50.420 --> 00:41:54.159
seem to be that success from the top down. So

00:41:54.159 --> 00:41:57.300
I applaud the concept, the idea, and everything

00:41:57.300 --> 00:42:01.840
you're doing to bring it out, make people aware

00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:04.940
of it. So you're king for a day now. You get

00:42:04.940 --> 00:42:08.360
to write legislation on the stick with PTSD for

00:42:08.360 --> 00:42:10.659
a moment. What should it look like? It should

00:42:10.659 --> 00:42:13.639
look like any other injury written in the statute.

00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:16.239
Chapter 440 is the Workers' Comp Act. It's a

00:42:16.239 --> 00:42:20.239
book this thick. Any injury, if you're on the

00:42:20.239 --> 00:42:23.699
clock and you hurt yourself, that's what we call

00:42:23.699 --> 00:42:27.099
an injury by accident. There's occupational disease,

00:42:27.260 --> 00:42:30.199
which is hypertension, heart disease, and tuberculosis.

00:42:31.210 --> 00:42:34.329
The mental or nervous injury provision of the

00:42:34.329 --> 00:42:39.130
statute is in Chapter 440, but it carves out

00:42:39.130 --> 00:42:43.989
the wage loss unless you meet one of these enumerated

00:42:43.989 --> 00:42:46.869
criteria. You simply take the criteria out. If

00:42:46.869 --> 00:42:48.630
someone's diagnosed with post -traumatic stress,

00:42:48.889 --> 00:42:53.389
job -related, they should get wage loss and medical

00:42:53.389 --> 00:42:59.110
care. It's as simple as that. In fact, when I

00:42:59.110 --> 00:43:04.239
was... Up in Tallahassee, lobbying at one of

00:43:04.239 --> 00:43:10.099
the sessions for a comp bill, to me, even having

00:43:10.099 --> 00:43:12.380
been in the legislature and gone through the

00:43:12.380 --> 00:43:16.420
sausage -making process of a bill, this fix was

00:43:16.420 --> 00:43:20.280
so easy because all you had to do was strike

00:43:20.280 --> 00:43:24.760
the words physical injury out of the current,

00:43:24.920 --> 00:43:31.760
the old mental health. legislation. Let me back

00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:34.159
up just a little bit. The old law said you could

00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:38.579
get medical care, but if you had a physical injury

00:43:38.579 --> 00:43:40.960
that was the cause of the PTSD, then you could

00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:44.380
get wage loss. So my idea was just strike through

00:43:44.380 --> 00:43:46.880
the physical injury. Take the physical injury

00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:50.119
component out of the law. Now you get wage loss

00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:51.719
for a mental or nervous injury that's proven

00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:55.340
to be job related. Now we can argue all day about

00:43:55.820 --> 00:43:59.019
whether the cause of the PTSD or the mental or

00:43:59.019 --> 00:44:01.480
nervous injury was the job. But medical doctors

00:44:01.480 --> 00:44:03.519
make that decision as they do today in workers'

00:44:03.619 --> 00:44:07.059
comp. Every case I have that goes to trial is

00:44:07.059 --> 00:44:09.760
all based on medical testimony and expert testimony.

00:44:09.900 --> 00:44:12.980
So it would have been no different. But leave

00:44:12.980 --> 00:44:16.360
it to the legislature to bring the idea in, get

00:44:16.360 --> 00:44:18.099
a bill in the House, get a bill in the Senate.

00:44:18.579 --> 00:44:20.840
And by the time it makes through all those committees

00:44:20.840 --> 00:44:24.650
and comes to the floor, of each chamber it's

00:44:24.650 --> 00:44:27.050
chopped up to what we have now which is ridiculous

00:44:27.050 --> 00:44:29.190
when in fact it just it was one strike through

00:44:29.190 --> 00:44:32.110
period one strike through but league of cities

00:44:32.110 --> 00:44:33.829
association of counties and the other insurance

00:44:33.829 --> 00:44:37.090
lobbyists they wouldn't have it they go in do

00:44:37.090 --> 00:44:39.730
their work with the legislators and here we here

00:44:39.730 --> 00:44:42.210
we are well it's crazy as well because the focus

00:44:42.210 --> 00:44:47.050
is on you know money Instead of the person. But

00:44:47.050 --> 00:44:49.610
even when you flip that around, again, this is

00:44:49.610 --> 00:44:52.210
what I used to sell the 2472, is like, if you

00:44:52.210 --> 00:44:55.969
look at the money, it's costing you so much more

00:44:55.969 --> 00:44:58.489
breaking your people. And no one wants to work

00:44:58.489 --> 00:45:00.090
for you anymore. So now you've got these vacancies,

00:45:00.110 --> 00:45:01.969
you've got people, you know, time and a half

00:45:01.969 --> 00:45:04.829
for overtime on paper, plus, you know, the trickle

00:45:04.829 --> 00:45:07.309
effect of the ill health and the divorces and

00:45:07.309 --> 00:45:09.889
everything else that is affecting. What blows

00:45:09.889 --> 00:45:12.030
me away is why are we not focusing? Well, then.

00:45:12.599 --> 00:45:14.880
We want to save money on this bill. So let's

00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:17.400
put the bill exactly how you just said. But let's

00:45:17.400 --> 00:45:19.420
look at how can we stop so many people getting

00:45:19.420 --> 00:45:22.239
mental health issues? What are we doing? You

00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:24.300
know, there's a beautiful Desmond Tutu quote

00:45:24.300 --> 00:45:26.739
that I've posted recently. He said, we spend

00:45:26.739 --> 00:45:28.820
so much time pulling people out of the river,

00:45:28.860 --> 00:45:31.059
we forget to go upstream to find out why they're

00:45:31.059 --> 00:45:33.679
falling in in the first place. That's exactly

00:45:33.679 --> 00:45:36.539
it. We can, there are so many elements that we

00:45:36.539 --> 00:45:39.559
can use to absolutely minimize the number of

00:45:39.559 --> 00:45:42.889
people that get to a point of clinical PTSD where

00:45:42.889 --> 00:45:45.489
they need to leave the job and have a retirement

00:45:45.489 --> 00:45:48.710
payment. We can get other people the ongoing

00:45:48.710 --> 00:45:52.869
therapy to help kind of offset some of these

00:45:52.869 --> 00:45:54.570
issues, whether it's on the job, whether it's

00:45:54.570 --> 00:45:56.590
personal, whether it's combined with an injury

00:45:56.590 --> 00:45:59.449
or an illness, and then get them back on their

00:45:59.449 --> 00:46:01.570
feet and get them back to work again. Because

00:46:01.570 --> 00:46:03.269
one of the things that kills me with this whole

00:46:03.269 --> 00:46:06.250
retirement thing is then these people are terrified,

00:46:06.349 --> 00:46:08.530
whether it's an injury, whether it's especially

00:46:08.530 --> 00:46:11.829
an injury like a back injury. is now you have

00:46:11.829 --> 00:46:15.010
to stay disabled too. There's no like, let's

00:46:15.010 --> 00:46:16.849
work on getting you well. There's like, oh, there's

00:46:16.849 --> 00:46:18.809
going to be a guy in the bushes with a camera

00:46:18.809 --> 00:46:21.489
and they're trying to catch me out. So the whole

00:46:21.489 --> 00:46:24.250
way everything is set up is to, if you even get

00:46:24.250 --> 00:46:25.869
that retirement, right, well, don't you dare

00:46:25.869 --> 00:46:29.409
get better or the money's going to stop. So why

00:46:29.409 --> 00:46:31.510
don't we focus on the things that contribute

00:46:31.510 --> 00:46:34.090
to the cancers and the PTSD and all these other

00:46:34.090 --> 00:46:37.110
things as well so that we can save money in these

00:46:37.110 --> 00:46:40.610
bills? Look, I welcome the thought and your theory

00:46:40.610 --> 00:46:42.750
is right. Your philosophy is right. But when

00:46:42.750 --> 00:46:46.170
you talk to people who will make these decisions,

00:46:46.309 --> 00:46:50.150
those are the folks who are beholden to special

00:46:50.150 --> 00:46:53.070
interest. And it's just too powerful. And again,

00:46:54.750 --> 00:46:58.690
I'm 61 now. I was a union guy my whole life and

00:46:58.690 --> 00:47:01.789
tried to champion good things. And it's a struggle.

00:47:01.889 --> 00:47:07.070
And I look back at any advancement and I find

00:47:07.070 --> 00:47:10.320
it. Disappointing. We've made some steps, but

00:47:10.320 --> 00:47:16.800
geez. But I do think, I really do think that

00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:21.599
if progress is to be made at a quicker pace or

00:47:21.599 --> 00:47:25.440
a more comprehensive improvement to things that

00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:27.179
we've been talking about, it's got to come from

00:47:27.179 --> 00:47:34.300
the bottom up. And we have to educate the masses

00:47:34.300 --> 00:47:38.619
rather than the few. In other words, fend for

00:47:38.619 --> 00:47:41.699
ourselves. I'm teaching these kids in these classes

00:47:41.699 --> 00:47:45.079
about signs and symptoms. What can you do? How

00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:47.000
can you help? Get them to these people. Get them

00:47:47.000 --> 00:47:49.539
to those people. Get them help early. All of

00:47:49.539 --> 00:47:53.980
these things. Because absent that, you think

00:47:53.980 --> 00:47:57.159
the suicide rate is crazy now. Imagine a generation

00:47:57.159 --> 00:48:00.219
from now, if we don't continue to do, I'm not

00:48:00.219 --> 00:48:02.679
including myself, I'm including you, do what

00:48:02.679 --> 00:48:06.500
you do, it's going to be exponentially worse.

00:48:07.049 --> 00:48:08.909
I think this is why I've made the point about

00:48:08.909 --> 00:48:11.489
recruitment or the lack thereof. It's like, don't

00:48:11.489 --> 00:48:15.829
act like it's plateaued. The line is still nosediving.

00:48:16.150 --> 00:48:17.849
It's getting worse and worse. And there are going

00:48:17.849 --> 00:48:20.329
to be departments that one day are going to have

00:48:20.329 --> 00:48:21.710
to tell their people, hey, we don't have a fire

00:48:21.710 --> 00:48:24.369
department anymore. I just saw one. Where was

00:48:24.369 --> 00:48:27.130
it? I forget now. I think it was in California.

00:48:27.449 --> 00:48:29.389
Yeah, it was. Kings County. Not Kings County.

00:48:29.409 --> 00:48:32.449
One of the cities within. We're about to go back

00:48:32.449 --> 00:48:36.199
to volunteer. Oh, wow. In 2025. Jeez. you know,

00:48:36.199 --> 00:48:38.539
and Central California, you know, fire departments.

00:48:38.599 --> 00:48:41.519
So this is the issue is it is getting worse and

00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:43.699
worse and worse. But, you know, just to beat

00:48:43.699 --> 00:48:45.980
the drum that I, you know, beat all the time,

00:48:46.019 --> 00:48:48.739
flog that poor dead horse. If we're talking about

00:48:48.739 --> 00:48:50.699
mental health, sleep deprivation is directly

00:48:50.699 --> 00:48:52.480
related to that. If we're talking about cancer,

00:48:52.619 --> 00:48:54.380
sleep deprivation is a carcinogen. And we're

00:48:54.380 --> 00:48:55.619
talking about the heart and lung bill, which

00:48:55.619 --> 00:48:58.019
we'll get to. Sleep deprivation is directly related

00:48:58.019 --> 00:49:01.199
to weight gain and all things disease. So if

00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:03.699
you want to do one thing to make a massive impact

00:49:03.699 --> 00:49:06.559
on all these. invest in your people and create

00:49:06.559 --> 00:49:09.079
a de -shift, that will get young people wanting

00:49:09.079 --> 00:49:14.440
to do this job again. But that's a vision. I'm

00:49:14.440 --> 00:49:17.320
not being silly. That's a vision that you can't

00:49:17.320 --> 00:49:19.840
convince someone who's got a limited time in

00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:21.820
office, whether it's a fire chief or a politician,

00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:25.860
that that's what he or she should be doing. They

00:49:25.860 --> 00:49:29.219
want to know about the here and the now. They

00:49:29.219 --> 00:49:32.300
want to fix now. And if it doesn't fix it now,

00:49:33.320 --> 00:49:36.019
They don't want to hear about it. Or they listen,

00:49:36.159 --> 00:49:42.420
but they don't act. You have a vision. And the

00:49:42.420 --> 00:49:45.099
people who make decisions about how to implement

00:49:45.099 --> 00:49:47.059
those things are not the ones who want to hear

00:49:47.059 --> 00:49:49.139
that vision. They want to hear what's going to

00:49:49.139 --> 00:49:52.440
happen in the next year. And that's the problem.

00:49:52.539 --> 00:49:55.300
That's the disconnect. Yeah. I mean, it's funny

00:49:55.300 --> 00:49:56.840
because you can listen to City of Gainesville.

00:49:57.529 --> 00:50:02.010
They went to 2472 in September and not all ranks,

00:50:02.050 --> 00:50:03.909
but at the firefighter level, they are fully

00:50:03.909 --> 00:50:06.070
staffed now. Yeah. And they've got four, you

00:50:06.070 --> 00:50:08.150
know. Yeah, you're right. These are case studies

00:50:08.150 --> 00:50:10.429
that need to be preached at every commission

00:50:10.429 --> 00:50:12.610
meeting in the state of Florida. You know what

00:50:12.610 --> 00:50:14.469
I mean? But they don't, like I said, I presented

00:50:14.469 --> 00:50:16.710
with three departments that had gone to it at

00:50:16.710 --> 00:50:19.989
the Florida Fire Chiefs Conference. And then

00:50:19.989 --> 00:50:22.090
their response a few months later is that email.

00:50:22.210 --> 00:50:23.510
Right. You know what I mean? So I agree with

00:50:23.510 --> 00:50:26.400
you completely. I mean, there are some phenomenal

00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:28.679
chiefs. And I want to kudos to anyone who has

00:50:28.679 --> 00:50:31.360
the guts or union leaders that have forced this.

00:50:31.460 --> 00:50:34.719
Big change ruffles feathers. So you going to

00:50:34.719 --> 00:50:37.940
the Fire Chiefs Association, I applaud you for

00:50:37.940 --> 00:50:40.420
that. But you could not have walked out of there

00:50:40.420 --> 00:50:42.239
thinking they're going to champion what I just

00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:44.420
suggested. Oh, no. I looked at their faces. Of

00:50:44.420 --> 00:50:45.860
course. And I heard some of the comments. Right.

00:50:45.900 --> 00:50:47.980
Because that ruffles feathers. Imagine them going

00:50:47.980 --> 00:50:49.860
back to the city manager or the county commission

00:50:49.860 --> 00:50:53.019
and saying, here's a new idea. It's going to

00:50:53.019 --> 00:50:56.440
cost us five now. It's going to save us 20 in

00:50:56.440 --> 00:51:00.000
10 years. They don't want to hear it because

00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:03.559
that 20 -year savings, they want to know how

00:51:03.559 --> 00:51:05.860
to... We don't have the budget for that. No,

00:51:05.880 --> 00:51:08.179
no, no. Maybe next year. Maybe next year. It's

00:51:08.179 --> 00:51:10.019
kick the can down the road, that silly cliche.

00:51:10.239 --> 00:51:12.920
But that's what it is. It's crazy. Absolutely.

00:51:13.420 --> 00:51:15.500
All right. Well, we talked about PTSD. Let's

00:51:15.500 --> 00:51:17.659
do the same thing. Let's go back to the 80s.

00:51:17.659 --> 00:51:22.059
Talk to me about cancer now. Yeah, I mean, look,

00:51:22.260 --> 00:51:27.760
I don't know the data and the stats about cancer

00:51:27.760 --> 00:51:31.880
diagnosis back when I was on the job. But when

00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:38.760
it became important enough for the locals to

00:51:38.760 --> 00:51:40.619
get involved, the unions, the state organizations.

00:51:42.510 --> 00:51:46.050
They did a lot of great work. The end product

00:51:46.050 --> 00:51:49.289
in 20, I think it was 18 or 2019 when this bill

00:51:49.289 --> 00:51:54.190
was signed into law, is the first cancer legislation

00:51:54.190 --> 00:51:56.769
for the state of Florida affecting firefighters.

00:51:57.329 --> 00:51:59.389
And I did a little bit of consulting with the

00:51:59.389 --> 00:52:04.110
FPF. It was a real struggle, James, simply because

00:52:04.110 --> 00:52:09.530
we didn't want it to be part of the Workers'

00:52:09.630 --> 00:52:12.329
Comp Act. And that's kind of a misnomer when

00:52:12.329 --> 00:52:14.530
people call me who've diagnosed and, you know,

00:52:14.550 --> 00:52:16.429
should I file it under workers' comp? Well, you

00:52:16.429 --> 00:52:19.070
can't. And there's good reason for that. In my

00:52:19.070 --> 00:52:20.949
opinion only, I think there's good reason for

00:52:20.949 --> 00:52:23.449
that. If I'm diagnosed with cancer like my sister

00:52:23.449 --> 00:52:26.030
was at age 18, I wanted to go to the best hospital,

00:52:26.050 --> 00:52:29.409
best doctors. If I got to go to Duke or Emory

00:52:29.409 --> 00:52:31.469
or NIH, that's where I want to go to treat my

00:52:31.469 --> 00:52:33.889
cancer. I don't want to be diagnosed with cancer

00:52:33.889 --> 00:52:36.570
in the state of Florida as a firefighter and

00:52:36.570 --> 00:52:42.349
go to a workers' comp oncologist. So that, together

00:52:42.349 --> 00:52:45.769
with the insurance lobby saying the rates are

00:52:45.769 --> 00:52:48.829
going to skyrocket because of the increased number

00:52:48.829 --> 00:52:54.670
of cancers in firefighting, the end product were

00:52:54.670 --> 00:53:00.460
21. different types of cancers. It is not a workers'

00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:04.219
comp injury or accident. And there are multiple

00:53:04.219 --> 00:53:07.139
criteria that you must meet in order to have

00:53:07.139 --> 00:53:11.340
a claim for cancer. First, it has to be one of

00:53:11.340 --> 00:53:13.159
those enumerated cancers. Secondly, you have

00:53:13.159 --> 00:53:16.000
to be on that department for five consecutive

00:53:16.000 --> 00:53:18.980
years prior to diagnosis. You can't have used

00:53:18.980 --> 00:53:21.219
tobacco products, any tobacco products, for that

00:53:21.219 --> 00:53:27.570
previous five consecutive years. You can't be

00:53:27.570 --> 00:53:30.849
in a different profession that has a higher incidence

00:53:30.849 --> 00:53:34.269
of the type of cancer you're claiming. And the

00:53:34.269 --> 00:53:36.389
only example I can probably give you there as

00:53:36.389 --> 00:53:38.949
a footnote is, let's say it's a melanoma, a skin

00:53:38.949 --> 00:53:42.210
cancer. Invasive skin cancers and melanomas are

00:53:42.210 --> 00:53:44.929
covered under the presumption. If you were a

00:53:44.929 --> 00:53:48.150
lifeguard on your two days off for the last 10

00:53:48.150 --> 00:53:51.469
years, I think you'd have, I think the... City

00:53:51.469 --> 00:53:53.909
or the county would have difficulty in going

00:53:53.909 --> 00:53:58.349
ahead and approving that because of that part

00:53:58.349 --> 00:54:01.409
-time job with a higher incidence of skin cancers.

00:54:01.550 --> 00:54:05.699
I don't know that, but that's... an example I

00:54:05.699 --> 00:54:08.579
would give that would fit that criteria of being

00:54:08.579 --> 00:54:10.679
in another profession over the previous five

00:54:10.679 --> 00:54:13.179
years that had a higher incidence of the cancer

00:54:13.179 --> 00:54:15.199
that you're alleging. And I lifeguarded on my

00:54:15.199 --> 00:54:16.659
days off, by the way. Did you really? I would

00:54:16.659 --> 00:54:19.119
have been screwed for a short time. Yeah, for

00:54:19.119 --> 00:54:22.659
that type of cancer anyway. And so what it provides

00:54:22.659 --> 00:54:27.340
is that you have to have, you must have, the

00:54:27.340 --> 00:54:30.019
department -sponsored health program because

00:54:30.019 --> 00:54:33.039
that's where... the cancer treatment would come.

00:54:33.539 --> 00:54:35.960
And the positive thing about that is under your

00:54:35.960 --> 00:54:37.760
group health policy, you get to choose your doctors.

00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:44.920
So that's the upside. You have to have the department

00:54:44.920 --> 00:54:48.920
-sponsored health plan, and any out -of -pockets

00:54:48.920 --> 00:54:51.980
co -pays or the like would be reimbursed by the

00:54:51.980 --> 00:54:55.219
department. Also, the department would give a

00:54:55.219 --> 00:55:00.320
$25 ,000 lump sum stipend. Some people get a

00:55:00.320 --> 00:55:02.679
little bit confused about, well, what's that

00:55:02.679 --> 00:55:05.500
for? Just throw me a check for $25 ,000. The

00:55:05.500 --> 00:55:08.900
idea behind that, the legislative intent, as

00:55:08.900 --> 00:55:13.360
we say, was that if I'm a firefighter and I get

00:55:13.360 --> 00:55:16.239
diagnosed with enumerated cancer and I meet all

00:55:16.239 --> 00:55:18.599
the other criteria and I want to go to Duke for

00:55:18.599 --> 00:55:21.880
care or Emory for care or NIH for care, let's

00:55:21.880 --> 00:55:24.869
say I'm up there eight, ten weeks of chemo. I

00:55:24.869 --> 00:55:27.130
want to be able to have my family with me. So

00:55:27.130 --> 00:55:30.110
the idea behind that money was so that you could

00:55:30.110 --> 00:55:32.690
bring your family with you for lodging and meals

00:55:32.690 --> 00:55:38.429
and things like that. Again, like the PTSD bill,

00:55:38.570 --> 00:55:43.730
it's good. It's better. But the FPF, Rocco and

00:55:43.730 --> 00:55:46.829
Bernie, those guys did a yeoman's job. It could

00:55:46.829 --> 00:55:48.630
be better. You know what I mean? It could be

00:55:48.630 --> 00:55:52.090
less restrictive. It could include... additional

00:55:52.090 --> 00:55:57.070
cancers that have been proven in the fire search

00:55:57.070 --> 00:55:59.269
to have a higher incident. Is breast cancer in

00:55:59.269 --> 00:56:01.630
that? It is. Yeah. Let me double check this for

00:56:01.630 --> 00:56:07.309
sure. Yes. Yes. Brilliant. Ovarian as well. I

00:56:07.309 --> 00:56:10.349
see. Yeah. Excellent. So one of the things that

00:56:10.349 --> 00:56:13.969
I've heard about cancer presumptions specifically

00:56:13.969 --> 00:56:17.690
in states that have the presumptive law. is horror

00:56:17.690 --> 00:56:20.469
story after horror story of firefighters being

00:56:20.469 --> 00:56:23.989
fought and even people in the insurance side

00:56:23.989 --> 00:56:27.070
being heard to say, we just fight them until

00:56:27.070 --> 00:56:31.409
they die. Talk to me about the insidious, nasty

00:56:31.409 --> 00:56:34.250
side of the opposition to actually follow through

00:56:34.250 --> 00:56:36.750
with some of these presumption laws. I've been

00:56:36.750 --> 00:56:39.809
litigating heart presumption cases since I started

00:56:39.809 --> 00:56:43.869
in 07. And those are hotly litigated. Those cases

00:56:43.869 --> 00:56:46.889
are denied routinely, and that's why I do what

00:56:46.889 --> 00:56:52.090
I do. The cancer cases, when I get calls, I tell

00:56:52.090 --> 00:56:54.610
my clients or potential clients of all the criteria,

00:56:54.769 --> 00:56:59.130
assuming they meet them and they are entitled

00:56:59.130 --> 00:57:02.889
to the benefits that the law provides, nine times

00:57:02.889 --> 00:57:06.750
out of ten, again, in my experience only, the

00:57:06.750 --> 00:57:13.190
department provides the benefit. two cases where

00:57:13.190 --> 00:57:17.610
the department has, as we say, fought or defended

00:57:17.610 --> 00:57:23.309
against providing the benefit. And I don't go

00:57:23.309 --> 00:57:26.369
into the circuit court with these cases. So I

00:57:26.369 --> 00:57:29.050
tell, in these two cases where they were denied,

00:57:29.230 --> 00:57:32.329
I told them, this is what I'll do. I'll pick

00:57:32.329 --> 00:57:35.409
up the phone or I'll write a letter. Let's try

00:57:35.409 --> 00:57:38.920
to talk about this. Let's see if we can't get

00:57:38.920 --> 00:57:41.599
them to come around. So I get medical records.

00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:44.539
And on both occasions, they tendered the $25

00:57:44.539 --> 00:57:48.539
,000 and provided the benefit simply by talking

00:57:48.539 --> 00:57:51.860
to the folks. Because the same defense lawyers

00:57:51.860 --> 00:57:54.679
for any particular municipality who's going to

00:57:54.679 --> 00:57:56.900
fight me on a heart -lung case are going to be

00:57:56.900 --> 00:57:59.199
the ones that are signing here. And I have a

00:57:59.199 --> 00:58:01.039
good relationship with most defense lawyers.

00:58:01.179 --> 00:58:03.480
So I pick up the phone. I go, hey, Joe Smith

00:58:03.480 --> 00:58:06.059
got a melanoma. Why are you guys denying this?

00:58:06.179 --> 00:58:08.219
Do you really want to fight this? You really

00:58:08.219 --> 00:58:10.280
want to go and fight this? This guy's going to

00:58:10.280 --> 00:58:13.239
call the press. It's just so silly. Well, you

00:58:13.239 --> 00:58:16.820
know, and some silly argument about how they're

00:58:16.820 --> 00:58:19.019
going to defend the case. And then, you know,

00:58:19.039 --> 00:58:20.559
a few days later, they're like, Mike, we got

00:58:20.559 --> 00:58:22.920
it. We're going to pick it up. So I've not had

00:58:22.920 --> 00:58:26.360
an experience like you suggested where they fight

00:58:26.360 --> 00:58:28.989
them until they die. They fight the heart claims,

00:58:29.170 --> 00:58:33.429
trust me. I'm in the arena every day with those

00:58:33.429 --> 00:58:36.449
types of claims. But I've not had too much pushback

00:58:36.449 --> 00:58:38.989
on these. I think it was the Carolinas specifically

00:58:38.989 --> 00:58:41.429
I'd heard that kind of horror story from. Every

00:58:41.429 --> 00:58:45.250
state law, cancer laws are state -specific, so

00:58:45.250 --> 00:58:48.789
I don't know what the criteria are in any particular

00:58:48.789 --> 00:58:51.570
state. I'm only licensed in Florida, so I can't

00:58:51.570 --> 00:58:54.130
speak to that. But it doesn't surprise me. In

00:58:54.130 --> 00:58:57.340
the end, it's an insurance dispute. So what is

00:58:57.340 --> 00:58:59.579
different about the Heart and Lung Bill, and

00:58:59.579 --> 00:59:04.099
why do you have such a harder time making those

00:59:04.099 --> 00:59:06.480
go through? Yeah, good question, and I won't

00:59:06.480 --> 00:59:10.059
take a long time. Back in 1965, the legislature

00:59:10.059 --> 00:59:12.260
in Florida thought at the time firefighters were

00:59:12.260 --> 00:59:14.389
exposed to everything that— we were exposed to,

00:59:14.469 --> 00:59:17.869
and thus they suggested, I don't know if it was

00:59:17.869 --> 00:59:23.349
epidemiologically proven, but they suggested

00:59:23.349 --> 00:59:25.690
that heart disease and hypertension and tuberculosis

00:59:25.690 --> 00:59:29.110
should be presumed to be job -related, just because

00:59:29.110 --> 00:59:32.250
of what we're exposed to. So fast forward however

00:59:32.250 --> 00:59:37.230
many years, there are certain criteria to be

00:59:37.230 --> 00:59:39.210
covered under the heart -lung presumption as

00:59:39.210 --> 00:59:41.309
it's loosely dubbed. You have to be... full -time

00:59:41.309 --> 00:59:44.889
firefighter or cop or corrections officer. In

00:59:44.889 --> 00:59:47.210
2000, corrections and police officers were brought

00:59:47.210 --> 00:59:49.769
into the fold. It used to be just firefighters.

00:59:50.250 --> 00:59:54.070
So today, it's those three protected class members.

00:59:54.269 --> 00:59:57.469
You have to have a form of heart disease. electrical

00:59:57.469 --> 01:00:00.170
form, plumbing, whatever it is. Typically it's

01:00:00.170 --> 01:00:02.250
a stent or an arrhythmia or something like that.

01:00:02.590 --> 01:00:04.630
You have to have a pre -employment physical at

01:00:04.630 --> 01:00:07.210
the time you were hired that failed to evidence

01:00:07.210 --> 01:00:09.869
anything that's claimed. And then you had to

01:00:09.869 --> 01:00:12.230
have a disabling event. The disabling event triggers

01:00:12.230 --> 01:00:15.250
you. So I'll give you a quick example. If you

01:00:15.250 --> 01:00:17.110
go to the hospital with chest pain, they send

01:00:17.110 --> 01:00:18.789
you to the cath lab, you go up, you have a stent

01:00:18.789 --> 01:00:21.800
placed. During that period, you're disabled from

01:00:21.800 --> 01:00:23.780
performing the essential functions of your job

01:00:23.780 --> 01:00:26.059
as a firefighter. That triggers the case at all.

01:00:26.179 --> 01:00:30.039
You could go 30 years on the job and have your

01:00:30.039 --> 01:00:33.639
coronary artery stenosed to 70%, never have a

01:00:33.639 --> 01:00:36.559
disabling event. The day you retire, have a massive

01:00:36.559 --> 01:00:39.500
MI and not be covered. So you have to be employed.

01:00:39.659 --> 01:00:43.599
You have to meet those criteria. It's not an

01:00:43.599 --> 01:00:45.400
automatic. It's a presumption. So the burden

01:00:45.400 --> 01:00:47.300
shifts to the carrier, the insurance company,

01:00:47.460 --> 01:00:50.719
the employer, to prove that something else caused

01:00:50.719 --> 01:00:52.559
that heart disease. And that's terribly difficult.

01:00:52.980 --> 01:00:59.960
So they deny it on any grounds. And what has

01:00:59.960 --> 01:01:02.780
incensed me, James, since I started doing this,

01:01:02.860 --> 01:01:06.789
I... When I got my law license, I had two tracks

01:01:06.789 --> 01:01:09.409
I could take, one of two. Either the traditional

01:01:09.409 --> 01:01:11.610
grievance arbitration route, union -side labor,

01:01:11.789 --> 01:01:14.050
negotiating contracts, handling arbitrations,

01:01:14.070 --> 01:01:16.809
or the heart -lung presumption. I immersed myself

01:01:16.809 --> 01:01:19.030
in this stuff, and I found it the most fascinating

01:01:19.030 --> 01:01:25.809
area of the law. So it's what I do. I also travel

01:01:25.809 --> 01:01:29.210
and teach, and I teach for one reason, because

01:01:29.210 --> 01:01:33.619
the insurance carriers don't tell you. about

01:01:33.619 --> 01:01:36.119
the law. They don't tell you your entitlement.

01:01:36.219 --> 01:01:37.780
They don't tell you about impairment benefits.

01:01:37.920 --> 01:01:39.719
They don't tell you about anything nuanced in

01:01:39.719 --> 01:01:44.219
the law. That makes me crazy. What they do is

01:01:44.219 --> 01:01:48.679
they know that there's 35 ,000 unassuming firefighters

01:01:48.679 --> 01:01:51.139
out there and twice as many cops and corrections

01:01:51.139 --> 01:01:54.639
officers. They know nothing about this law. And

01:01:54.639 --> 01:01:59.320
so if they get 10 claims, an adjuster, they send

01:01:59.320 --> 01:02:03.199
out 10 denials written in legalese. So these

01:02:03.199 --> 01:02:04.780
guys look at it and go, oh, I guess for all these

01:02:04.780 --> 01:02:07.780
reasons I don't qualify. Eight of those guys

01:02:07.780 --> 01:02:11.119
are going away. He's going to give up. Two will

01:02:11.119 --> 01:02:14.559
call somebody like me or someone else. That makes

01:02:14.559 --> 01:02:21.320
me nuts. So my part of my frustration is that

01:02:21.320 --> 01:02:23.280
not only am I going to litigate these cases.

01:02:24.570 --> 01:02:27.030
Just take them in and beat them up. I'm going

01:02:27.030 --> 01:02:28.550
to travel the state and I'm going to teach this

01:02:28.550 --> 01:02:30.590
stuff to firefighters and cops. And that's what

01:02:30.590 --> 01:02:33.369
I do, you know, a few times a year, conferences

01:02:33.369 --> 01:02:35.309
and things like that. Like next week, I'll see

01:02:35.309 --> 01:02:39.449
you at the FPF, I'm sure. Yes. Yeah. Speaking

01:02:39.449 --> 01:02:42.989
of a little side story, I posted that I would

01:02:42.989 --> 01:02:45.449
be there. And then I got a phone call saying

01:02:45.449 --> 01:02:48.130
I wasn't allowed to use their logo when I was

01:02:48.130 --> 01:02:49.510
telling everyone I was going to speak at their

01:02:49.510 --> 01:02:52.929
conference. Which logo? The FPF? The FPF's logo.

01:02:53.869 --> 01:02:56.929
And I was like, you understand how crazy that

01:02:56.929 --> 01:02:59.170
sounds, right? That I'm traveling all this way

01:02:59.170 --> 01:03:02.110
to speak about this thing for free down in West

01:03:02.110 --> 01:03:05.809
Palm, and I can't use your Maltese cross with

01:03:05.809 --> 01:03:09.809
FPF written on it. So to me, therein lies the

01:03:09.809 --> 01:03:12.570
problem. I'm like, if that's your focus, then

01:03:12.570 --> 01:03:14.969
maybe you need to take a step back and reevaluate

01:03:14.969 --> 01:03:17.590
that because that's insane. I'm literally coming

01:03:17.590 --> 01:03:20.789
to your conference. This is advertising for you.

01:03:20.929 --> 01:03:23.789
Yeah, man. I love the FPF. I love Bernie and

01:03:23.789 --> 01:03:26.789
Rocco and all those guys. I suspect that that

01:03:26.789 --> 01:03:30.989
was a resolution at some conference about using

01:03:30.989 --> 01:03:33.570
and exposing, you know, whatever. And it was

01:03:33.570 --> 01:03:35.949
voted on by the masses, and that's just the rule.

01:03:36.090 --> 01:03:39.510
I know Wayne Bernowska, Bernie, you know them,

01:03:39.530 --> 01:03:41.809
Rocco, Salvatore. These guys would have no problem

01:03:41.809 --> 01:03:44.130
with that. I mean, that's just my opinion. I

01:03:44.130 --> 01:03:47.510
use the international logo on my posts because...

01:03:47.739 --> 01:03:49.800
All the firefighters that I represent are members

01:03:49.800 --> 01:03:52.579
of the international. And I'm a dues paying retiree.

01:03:52.639 --> 01:03:55.039
I've never gotten any flack for that. But I'm

01:03:55.039 --> 01:03:59.179
surprised by that. Yeah, it was a good example

01:03:59.179 --> 01:04:02.099
of the ridiculousness of red tape. I think that's

01:04:02.099 --> 01:04:05.340
all I'm highlighting that. Yeah, sure. All right.

01:04:05.340 --> 01:04:08.019
Well, then you talked about an incentive, an

01:04:08.019 --> 01:04:10.639
initiative that you have to help firefighters.

01:04:10.820 --> 01:04:12.840
So let's unpack that a little bit. Yeah, you

01:04:12.840 --> 01:04:16.400
know. I don't know. I've probably said this three

01:04:16.400 --> 01:04:19.019
times since I got on the mic. I'm an old guy

01:04:19.019 --> 01:04:21.500
now. I'm 61 years old, right? But I feel like

01:04:21.500 --> 01:04:25.260
I'm 30. And I sat back, I don't know, a few months

01:04:25.260 --> 01:04:27.639
ago and I thought, you know, I think I'm doing

01:04:27.639 --> 01:04:29.480
good work. People tell me I'm doing good work.

01:04:29.519 --> 01:04:33.480
I'm helping a lot of people. And it's Florida

01:04:33.480 --> 01:04:35.780
specific, right? I'm licensed to practice in

01:04:35.780 --> 01:04:40.420
Florida. But I'm partnered with this huge law

01:04:40.420 --> 01:04:42.519
firm, the biggest one. Everyone knows about it.

01:04:42.800 --> 01:04:45.019
And we have offices in every state in the nation.

01:04:46.579 --> 01:04:52.539
So it struck me, how can I leave a legacy of

01:04:52.539 --> 01:04:55.159
impacting people beyond the state of Florida?

01:04:56.539 --> 01:05:00.099
Firefighters. Those are my people, right? And

01:05:00.099 --> 01:05:04.760
I wondered, I can't be so limited to Florida

01:05:04.760 --> 01:05:08.739
and at the same time be tied to this huge firm

01:05:08.739 --> 01:05:11.320
that have offices in every state in the nation.

01:05:12.300 --> 01:05:16.420
How can I touch firefighters who will trust me

01:05:16.420 --> 01:05:19.320
to put them in the right hands if they need help?

01:05:19.659 --> 01:05:28.260
And so it's still in that theory stage, this

01:05:28.260 --> 01:05:33.420
idea. But I'm in the process now of developing

01:05:33.420 --> 01:05:38.940
an app where people can... I can travel the country

01:05:38.940 --> 01:05:41.500
and talk to the folks I know in different states

01:05:41.500 --> 01:05:45.460
who are with the international and have an app

01:05:45.460 --> 01:05:47.500
that their members can have on their phone, and

01:05:47.500 --> 01:05:50.659
if they get hurt, touch it, make it as easy as

01:05:50.659 --> 01:05:56.119
possible. I mean, almost just crazy easy. It

01:05:56.119 --> 01:05:58.940
comes to me, I get them the help they need within

01:05:58.940 --> 01:06:03.460
hours. Again, it's just an idea, but I think

01:06:03.460 --> 01:06:06.380
the best way to do it, because I've spoken to...

01:06:06.989 --> 01:06:09.210
the 12th DVP of the International, Walt Dix,

01:06:09.250 --> 01:06:11.730
you probably know Walt, and some other district

01:06:11.730 --> 01:06:13.389
vice presidents around the country, and they

01:06:13.389 --> 01:06:16.269
love the idea and they want to help if they can.

01:06:16.869 --> 01:06:22.230
So I just, you know, I told you before, I think

01:06:22.230 --> 01:06:25.730
I got another 10 or 15 years, but, you know,

01:06:25.730 --> 01:06:28.090
in the meantime, I want to help people beyond

01:06:28.090 --> 01:06:30.550
Florida firefighters. And if I can do it in a

01:06:30.550 --> 01:06:32.820
way that... It makes it easy for them, and they

01:06:32.820 --> 01:06:35.159
can get help with great lawyers. I know some

01:06:35.159 --> 01:06:37.480
of the best lawyers around. They're with this

01:06:37.480 --> 01:06:39.059
firm. There's people knocking this firm down

01:06:39.059 --> 01:06:43.260
to get in, and John only hires the best. So if

01:06:43.260 --> 01:06:45.380
they can trust me to put them in the best hands,

01:06:45.480 --> 01:06:49.119
that's a way that I can continue to provide help.

01:06:50.099 --> 01:06:53.500
If there's any way at all, how can people listening

01:06:53.500 --> 01:06:57.739
help with this movement? You know, that's a good

01:06:57.739 --> 01:06:59.519
question. I think I'm going to have to visit.

01:07:00.199 --> 01:07:02.679
State conferences, go to the International every

01:07:02.679 --> 01:07:04.860
two years, go to the Redmond Symposium, go to

01:07:04.860 --> 01:07:07.340
these things and shake hands with folks. I know

01:07:07.340 --> 01:07:10.380
a smattering of folks that are with some big,

01:07:10.400 --> 01:07:13.900
big locals. I know Nate Bailey in Atlanta and

01:07:13.900 --> 01:07:16.699
some few other states out west who are high on

01:07:16.699 --> 01:07:19.380
the idea. I think I just have to get around and

01:07:19.380 --> 01:07:22.860
meet these people, give them information about

01:07:22.860 --> 01:07:25.239
the app so that they can disseminate it to their

01:07:25.239 --> 01:07:27.820
folks and convince them that. I don't care where

01:07:27.820 --> 01:07:29.659
they are in the country. I can put them in the

01:07:29.659 --> 01:07:34.809
hands of the best people to help them. I think

01:07:34.809 --> 01:07:36.670
the app will be out in the next month or so.

01:07:36.750 --> 01:07:39.289
I'm using, actually, the same folks that developed

01:07:39.289 --> 01:07:41.710
the second alarm project. Oh, brilliant. Yeah,

01:07:41.769 --> 01:07:43.710
yeah, yeah. I've been in touch with those guys.

01:07:43.769 --> 01:07:45.869
So they're excited, and we'll put something together,

01:07:45.949 --> 01:07:48.690
and I'll let you know. Yeah, please do. I actually

01:07:48.690 --> 01:07:50.809
got Kelly O'Dea coming on, I think, next week.

01:07:50.909 --> 01:07:52.829
Oh, great. Yeah, and then, which is interesting,

01:07:53.050 --> 01:07:55.250
she's got her, and then there's a gentleman,

01:07:55.349 --> 01:07:59.289
Keith from FSU, are studying Gainesville and

01:07:59.289 --> 01:08:03.110
Destin. They both went to 2472 already. So they've

01:08:03.110 --> 01:08:05.309
got baseline testing and we're going to be seeing

01:08:05.309 --> 01:08:08.329
the physiological results. Now, again, you don't

01:08:08.329 --> 01:08:10.050
have to be genius to understand that, of course,

01:08:10.070 --> 01:08:12.690
it's going to be better. But the people that

01:08:12.690 --> 01:08:14.829
say they want to see a data, all right, there's

01:08:14.829 --> 01:08:16.270
your data. You know, I was going to pose that

01:08:16.270 --> 01:08:18.930
question to you. Those departments who have gone

01:08:18.930 --> 01:08:22.550
and the trend is up, thank God, including Destin

01:08:22.550 --> 01:08:25.539
and Gainesville and these other folks. I say

01:08:25.539 --> 01:08:27.319
we, I just say that collectively because I'm

01:08:27.319 --> 01:08:30.279
in the fire service background. Are we tracking

01:08:30.279 --> 01:08:35.300
any difference between the old schedule and the

01:08:35.300 --> 01:08:38.539
new schedule so that we can help other departments?

01:08:38.739 --> 01:08:41.119
Yeah, I think that's what's happening with FSU.

01:08:41.319 --> 01:08:43.380
I mean, if you've got Hugh Bruder and out Boynton

01:08:43.380 --> 01:08:45.500
Beach, I'm sure they can now, it's been about

01:08:45.500 --> 01:08:47.279
two years, I'm sure they can start looking at

01:08:47.279 --> 01:08:50.109
some of the financial side as well. But I mean,

01:08:50.130 --> 01:08:51.890
it's just, you know, really, if you put it on

01:08:51.890 --> 01:08:54.569
paper, I mean, it's... So the trend obviously

01:08:54.569 --> 01:08:57.270
would be down in terms of people affected by

01:08:57.270 --> 01:08:59.909
mental health with better schedule. Yeah, sleep

01:08:59.909 --> 01:09:01.949
and everything. Even relationships. I mean, you

01:09:01.949 --> 01:09:03.250
know, mom and dad are going to be home when they're

01:09:03.250 --> 01:09:05.029
supposed to be home. You know, so the mandatory

01:09:05.029 --> 01:09:07.270
overtime all but goes away unless there's a hurricane

01:09:07.270 --> 01:09:11.510
or COVID or something. And yeah, my friend Matt

01:09:11.510 --> 01:09:14.390
from Gainesville, I hit him up. I was like, so...

01:09:14.890 --> 01:09:16.689
What do you think? He said, James, I would never

01:09:16.689 --> 01:09:19.770
go back to the old schedule. And yet I have people

01:09:19.770 --> 01:09:22.250
that don't understand this that go, Oh, I want

01:09:22.250 --> 01:09:25.789
to do the 4896. It's like, you just, just go

01:09:25.789 --> 01:09:27.689
and listen to the people that have gone to this,

01:09:27.729 --> 01:09:29.670
you know, and then what they did to fight for

01:09:29.670 --> 01:09:31.649
it and where the money was already and all this

01:09:31.649 --> 01:09:32.909
stuff. And I won't go down that rabbit hole,

01:09:32.970 --> 01:09:35.989
but yeah, it's really. brilliant to hear. And

01:09:35.989 --> 01:09:38.670
then there's, there's a Florida department that

01:09:38.670 --> 01:09:42.850
I'm super excited for in our area that is hopefully

01:09:42.850 --> 01:09:44.989
going to go very soon. There's a Texas department

01:09:44.989 --> 01:09:47.909
that's about to go. So it's, I mean, it's happening.

01:09:47.989 --> 01:09:50.590
So every single department, you start chipping

01:09:50.590 --> 01:09:53.869
away at that, you know, facade of it will never

01:09:53.869 --> 01:09:56.210
happen. Like you said, you know, the, the, the

01:09:56.210 --> 01:09:58.970
fiscal year chief or union leader or whoever

01:09:58.970 --> 01:10:01.840
it is, that's the barrier to entry. And people

01:10:01.840 --> 01:10:03.640
are like, well, wait a second, if Pasco could

01:10:03.640 --> 01:10:05.500
go to it, if Palm Beach could go to it, why can't

01:10:05.500 --> 01:10:08.000
we go to it? So that's what I'm hoping will happen

01:10:08.000 --> 01:10:11.260
next. And again, that all filters into all the

01:10:11.260 --> 01:10:13.420
things we've discussed today. Is there any common

01:10:13.420 --> 01:10:15.739
denominator about how those particular departments

01:10:15.739 --> 01:10:21.229
became? good with the idea, how they were impacted?

01:10:21.470 --> 01:10:24.850
Was it just they had the right politics at the

01:10:24.850 --> 01:10:27.390
commission level? Relationships. Yeah, that was

01:10:27.390 --> 01:10:30.930
it. If you don't have this head -knocking...

01:10:30.930 --> 01:10:32.590
I mean, the perfect example, Orange County, Orlando.

01:10:32.850 --> 01:10:34.729
When I was there, they didn't play well together.

01:10:35.329 --> 01:10:37.229
Ocala and Marion County don't play well together,

01:10:37.390 --> 01:10:40.010
and that just disgusts me. You're a bunch of

01:10:40.010 --> 01:10:41.329
grown -ups that are supposed to be serving your

01:10:41.329 --> 01:10:43.689
community, and one of you thinks that you're

01:10:43.689 --> 01:10:47.550
better than the other, for the love of God. The

01:10:47.550 --> 01:10:49.789
Pascos and, you know, the Boyntons and all these

01:10:49.789 --> 01:10:52.789
other places that have made it happen. Some of

01:10:52.789 --> 01:10:55.109
them, the one that's going to happen soon, I

01:10:55.109 --> 01:10:57.170
believe it was the city that came to the fire

01:10:57.170 --> 01:10:58.930
department and said, what about this? Which is

01:10:58.930 --> 01:11:02.170
amazing. But having that relationship and these

01:11:02.170 --> 01:11:04.869
unions and chiefs and admins and, you know, cities

01:11:04.869 --> 01:11:07.130
and counties all talking in a room and saying,

01:11:07.149 --> 01:11:09.449
well. They're listening and then go, well, that

01:11:09.449 --> 01:11:11.890
actually makes a lot of sense. That's the difference.

01:11:11.989 --> 01:11:14.369
It's having the humility, dropping the egos.

01:11:14.369 --> 01:11:16.109
Of course, that's it. And then looking at the

01:11:16.109 --> 01:11:18.409
money too. If you weren't going to save money,

01:11:18.510 --> 01:11:20.630
then this would be a hard sell. But realizing

01:11:20.630 --> 01:11:23.329
how you're struggling to recruit and how you're

01:11:23.329 --> 01:11:25.310
bleeding over time, which is killing your people.

01:11:25.729 --> 01:11:28.170
This is, you know, it's not the magic bullet,

01:11:28.229 --> 01:11:30.289
but my God, it's a pretty damn powerful one.

01:11:30.369 --> 01:11:32.130
It's about getting them to listen. Just come

01:11:32.130 --> 01:11:34.010
in the room and listen. Just have a discussion.

01:11:34.250 --> 01:11:38.039
And that could be said for... national politics,

01:11:38.180 --> 01:11:41.939
but I won't bore you with that. I mean, the middle...

01:11:44.520 --> 01:11:48.140
of politics has evaporated. Everybody's in their

01:11:48.140 --> 01:11:51.659
corner. It's awful. I honestly think there's

01:11:51.659 --> 01:11:53.479
going to be a revolution in the middle. I really

01:11:53.479 --> 01:11:56.000
do. I was thinking the other day, if you've ever

01:11:56.000 --> 01:11:58.619
done pottery, the spinning wheel, the pottery

01:11:58.619 --> 01:12:01.520
wheel, if the clay is off kilter, it just spins

01:12:01.520 --> 01:12:03.300
and flies into the corner. I feel like that's

01:12:03.300 --> 01:12:05.699
what's happening with the extremism now. I think

01:12:05.699 --> 01:12:07.539
we're watching the wheels just come off and the

01:12:07.539 --> 01:12:09.560
people in the middle, I think they're going to

01:12:09.560 --> 01:12:11.720
rise up. And I truly believe that there's going

01:12:11.720 --> 01:12:14.520
to be a kind of community of... Kindness, compassion,

01:12:14.819 --> 01:12:17.279
the normal people in the middle again. From your

01:12:17.279 --> 01:12:21.140
mouth to God's ears. One more thing before we

01:12:21.140 --> 01:12:22.880
close out, because it kind of ties everything

01:12:22.880 --> 01:12:27.640
in together. Along with my vision, which is already

01:12:27.640 --> 01:12:31.420
happening, this revolution of 24 -72, I think

01:12:31.420 --> 01:12:33.720
that there needs to then be a fitness standard

01:12:33.720 --> 01:12:35.640
put in. Now, you're sitting across from me at

01:12:35.640 --> 01:12:37.859
61 years old. One of the places that you find

01:12:37.859 --> 01:12:41.970
peace is the gym. What is your impression of

01:12:41.970 --> 01:12:43.970
fitness standards in the fire service? Of course,

01:12:43.970 --> 01:12:46.569
we both know that would positively impact the

01:12:46.569 --> 01:12:48.770
heart and lung bill, the cancer bill, the mental

01:12:48.770 --> 01:12:52.210
health bill. But as someone who rose through

01:12:52.210 --> 01:12:55.270
the ranks and now has been fighting for the first

01:12:55.270 --> 01:12:58.449
responders and seeing the downstream effects

01:12:58.449 --> 01:13:02.869
of ill health, talk to me about the... the need

01:13:02.869 --> 01:13:05.270
or or or if you think that they shouldn't be

01:13:05.270 --> 01:13:07.590
of fitness standards at the front door continue

01:13:07.590 --> 01:13:09.909
through to when we retire i think the masses

01:13:09.909 --> 01:13:15.159
are about 50 50 james and i i i was The fitness

01:13:15.159 --> 01:13:18.960
instructor in Longwood. It's such a silly moniker,

01:13:18.979 --> 01:13:21.199
but that's what it was. They said, oh, Mike Cleland,

01:13:21.260 --> 01:13:23.859
you like to work out, so you're going to run

01:13:23.859 --> 01:13:27.579
these guys through a monthly test. And I looked

01:13:27.579 --> 01:13:29.260
to the military to get their test. I didn't want

01:13:29.260 --> 01:13:34.159
to be too, you know. iron -fisted, but we put

01:13:34.159 --> 01:13:36.100
together something. Everybody bought in. There

01:13:36.100 --> 01:13:37.939
was a little bit of a cardio involved. There

01:13:37.939 --> 01:13:40.659
was some strength testing. There was some mobility

01:13:40.659 --> 01:13:43.619
and stretching and things like that. And everybody

01:13:43.619 --> 01:13:47.720
bought in. But there were always resistors, and

01:13:47.720 --> 01:13:52.060
there always will be. My take on it now looking

01:13:52.060 --> 01:13:55.720
at 2025 is you see the Jason Wheats of the world.

01:13:55.760 --> 01:13:58.000
These guys are amazing, and they're relentless

01:13:58.000 --> 01:14:04.340
and just... I applaud them. They're just doing

01:14:04.340 --> 01:14:06.779
yeoman's work. I don't know. I've been out of

01:14:06.779 --> 01:14:08.779
the service for so long. I don't know on the

01:14:08.779 --> 01:14:13.229
inside what that ratio is like. the resistors

01:14:13.229 --> 01:14:16.430
to those who buy in. The key, I think, is to

01:14:16.430 --> 01:14:20.369
get a Jason Wheaton in front of you and just

01:14:20.369 --> 01:14:23.329
say, look, here's the way it should be and ease

01:14:23.329 --> 01:14:26.829
into it. And then as it's shown to be not so

01:14:26.829 --> 01:14:30.329
oppressive, and I'm thinking in the mind of a

01:14:30.329 --> 01:14:33.449
resistor, that eventually you can get some buy

01:14:33.449 --> 01:14:37.229
-in. Or you make it mandatory. But then you get

01:14:37.229 --> 01:14:40.609
the guys negotiating at the table, the same 50

01:14:40.609 --> 01:14:43.560
% that are saying, F you, I'm not doing that.

01:14:43.600 --> 01:14:45.159
I'm coming to work, doing my job, I'm going home.

01:14:45.640 --> 01:14:48.500
Prove to me I'm not capable. I pass the, you

01:14:48.500 --> 01:14:51.500
know, whatever, the fit for duty every year or

01:14:51.500 --> 01:14:54.779
every two years. So then now the union guys conflicted

01:14:54.779 --> 01:14:57.020
about putting something in the contract that

01:14:57.020 --> 01:15:00.340
requires a certain amount of time to do X, Y,

01:15:00.359 --> 01:15:04.520
and Z. I don't know how you get everybody to

01:15:04.520 --> 01:15:07.739
buy in. But it was hot back in the 80s and 90s

01:15:07.739 --> 01:15:09.640
to get everybody to buy in, and I'm sure it's

01:15:09.640 --> 01:15:13.130
the same now. But I do, looking from the outside,

01:15:13.329 --> 01:15:17.630
I see that it's a bigger... I think more people

01:15:17.630 --> 01:15:19.649
are buying in. I mean, look at First Response

01:15:19.649 --> 01:15:22.630
Training Group with Jay. Those guys are, like,

01:15:22.649 --> 01:15:25.470
militaristic. I mean, I see them training just...

01:15:25.470 --> 01:15:28.609
This is fire standards. And these guys are fit,

01:15:28.850 --> 01:15:36.909
you know? Everything you said makes sense in

01:15:36.909 --> 01:15:42.260
terms of the... The consequences of not being

01:15:42.260 --> 01:15:49.439
fit. But getting someone to remain in good physical

01:15:49.439 --> 01:15:51.600
and mental health is a completely different story.

01:15:51.699 --> 01:15:53.619
Why? Because these guys are going home for two

01:15:53.619 --> 01:15:55.180
or three days and they're living their lives

01:15:55.180 --> 01:15:57.340
the way they want to live them. My brother Steve,

01:15:57.699 --> 01:16:01.420
30 -year guy, not in the best of shape, lives

01:16:01.420 --> 01:16:05.779
like Ernest Hemingway. That school of thought

01:16:05.779 --> 01:16:09.579
is, you know. Fuck it. I'm living life the way

01:16:09.579 --> 01:16:12.020
I want to live my life. I have one life and I'm

01:16:12.020 --> 01:16:14.079
still able to do that job. He did it for 30 years.

01:16:14.140 --> 01:16:18.840
He was on Tower One. At the same time, you know,

01:16:18.880 --> 01:16:23.920
my school of thought is, dude, you're 62, 63.

01:16:24.140 --> 01:16:28.180
You got to, you know, not live like Hemingway

01:16:28.180 --> 01:16:30.659
and get in shape and sleep well and all of these

01:16:30.659 --> 01:16:34.260
things. I don't know how to convince the majority.

01:16:35.280 --> 01:16:37.279
What's interesting, and I've said this so many

01:16:37.279 --> 01:16:39.899
times on here, is if you think about the front

01:16:39.899 --> 01:16:43.060
door of the Florida Fire Service, everything

01:16:43.060 --> 01:16:48.760
is set up for a bar to be maintained. We literally

01:16:48.760 --> 01:16:53.020
call our certification minimum standards. That's

01:16:53.020 --> 01:16:55.100
it. It's labeled. This is the shittest you should

01:16:55.100 --> 01:16:58.520
ever be the rest of your career. And so we have

01:16:58.520 --> 01:17:00.159
the opportunity to be like, oh, we just need

01:17:00.159 --> 01:17:02.880
you to do what you could do in the academy. Oh,

01:17:02.880 --> 01:17:04.479
that's not fair. What do you mean it's not fair?

01:17:04.600 --> 01:17:06.199
It's literally the thing that you had to meet

01:17:06.199 --> 01:17:07.680
to get the piece of paper that allows you to

01:17:07.680 --> 01:17:10.000
do this. And what's really interesting in profession

01:17:10.000 --> 01:17:12.819
that I contrast, which is the other, one of the

01:17:12.819 --> 01:17:14.500
other jobs that I did, even though I was never

01:17:14.500 --> 01:17:16.180
working on the ocean, but you listen to the ocean

01:17:16.180 --> 01:17:18.939
lifeguards, they re -qualify. I just had a Hawaii

01:17:18.939 --> 01:17:21.920
one every six months, this one. And the one I

01:17:21.920 --> 01:17:24.119
did, I think it was, I mean, we did swim tests

01:17:24.119 --> 01:17:25.659
all the time. I think it was every year or two

01:17:25.659 --> 01:17:27.520
years we re -qual, but regardless, say it's two

01:17:27.520 --> 01:17:30.710
years, worst case. If James Gearing can't do

01:17:30.710 --> 01:17:33.289
the swim tests and the toes and the dummy retrievals,

01:17:33.289 --> 01:17:36.090
then I'm not a lifeguard anymore. And that's

01:17:36.090 --> 01:17:38.210
where I think the bar should be. should be held

01:17:38.210 --> 01:17:41.189
it's like you cannot complain that a fitness

01:17:41.189 --> 01:17:43.630
test is unfair when you knew exactly what to

01:17:43.630 --> 01:17:45.270
expect when you went through the fire academy

01:17:45.270 --> 01:17:48.310
i don't remember any lazy boys and you know jerry

01:17:48.310 --> 01:17:50.949
springer marathon sessions in the the fire academy

01:17:50.949 --> 01:17:53.670
but like you said don't go extreme and be like

01:17:53.670 --> 01:17:56.529
you gotta do a 500 pound deadlift and a two meter

01:17:56.529 --> 01:17:59.789
vertical leap and of course but you know whether

01:17:59.789 --> 01:18:02.430
it's rick seagrass you know fire sled version

01:18:02.430 --> 01:18:04.770
of the c -pad whether it's the c -pad There's

01:18:04.770 --> 01:18:07.010
nothing unfair about a CPAT. And I'm sorry, but

01:18:07.010 --> 01:18:08.829
anyone in the fire service should be able to

01:18:08.829 --> 01:18:11.050
do a CPAT in less than 10 minutes and 19 seconds.

01:18:11.630 --> 01:18:15.229
I did it at 47 years old a few years ago to get

01:18:15.229 --> 01:18:16.729
ready for Gainesville when I thought the money

01:18:16.729 --> 01:18:18.670
was going around for the podcast. And it was

01:18:18.670 --> 01:18:22.659
720. So that's three minutes over an old guy

01:18:22.659 --> 01:18:24.340
that you've got to get done. So I don't want

01:18:24.340 --> 01:18:27.420
to hear about it's not fair. So this is, I think,

01:18:27.420 --> 01:18:30.180
where we've got to really, you know, grow a set

01:18:30.180 --> 01:18:33.979
is at the front door, make it mandatory. And

01:18:33.979 --> 01:18:37.260
then for all our men and women, of course, don't

01:18:37.260 --> 01:18:39.180
just implement it and say by tomorrow, you've

01:18:39.180 --> 01:18:40.699
got to be able to meet the standard. There's

01:18:40.699 --> 01:18:43.399
got to be an on -ramp session. But at what point

01:18:43.399 --> 01:18:44.920
do you draw a line in the sand and go, look,

01:18:45.020 --> 01:18:47.689
you either can or you can't. If a child dies

01:18:47.689 --> 01:18:50.470
because you tapped out on the third floor and

01:18:50.470 --> 01:18:53.130
we're worried about hurting your feelings, then

01:18:53.130 --> 01:18:55.250
you're in the wrong job. It's that simple. So

01:18:55.250 --> 01:18:56.909
I think we've really got to kind of be a little

01:18:56.909 --> 01:18:59.029
courageous in the fitness standard conversation.

01:18:59.310 --> 01:19:01.670
Agreed. It's the approach, too. You don't want

01:19:01.670 --> 01:19:03.449
to scare these guys into thinking, you know,

01:19:03.470 --> 01:19:05.930
who are you? Especially if you're in a department

01:19:05.930 --> 01:19:10.310
of, you know, 150 guys. 40 of them are on their

01:19:10.310 --> 01:19:12.649
way out in two years. They're just going to sit

01:19:12.649 --> 01:19:15.289
back and say, here you go, whatever, whatever.

01:19:15.550 --> 01:19:18.770
It's going to be like water off a duck's back.

01:19:20.090 --> 01:19:22.090
Convincing the younger generation, I think, is

01:19:22.090 --> 01:19:25.550
key. When I went and taught Hartlong at First

01:19:25.550 --> 01:19:31.369
Response, just a full classroom of kids. And

01:19:31.369 --> 01:19:33.590
I think if we can get them young, like Jason

01:19:33.590 --> 01:19:36.869
and those guys are doing out there, more broadly.

01:19:38.470 --> 01:19:41.069
And I think fitness is bigger now. I think the

01:19:41.069 --> 01:19:43.989
younger generation are conscious of fitness.

01:19:44.430 --> 01:19:46.710
That's just my take. People have told me the

01:19:46.710 --> 01:19:50.279
fit firefighter is the fit. Military recruits

01:19:50.279 --> 01:19:52.319
are fitter than they've ever been. Now, we've

01:19:52.319 --> 01:19:54.460
got a large portion that aren't, but of the people

01:19:54.460 --> 01:19:56.819
that step up and toe the line, they're seeing

01:19:56.819 --> 01:19:58.640
a lot of the fit ones are in incredible shape,

01:19:58.720 --> 01:20:00.880
which is amazing. Yeah, and that's good news.

01:20:01.920 --> 01:20:04.500
And then us old folks will fall off the back

01:20:04.500 --> 01:20:06.899
end, and then maybe it'll be a generational thing,

01:20:06.939 --> 01:20:08.920
and maybe firefighters just as a rule will become

01:20:08.920 --> 01:20:12.560
more fit just because of society. You know what

01:20:12.560 --> 01:20:15.279
I mean? Social media and stuff, everybody's on

01:20:15.279 --> 01:20:18.180
there with... I mean, my son, all his friends

01:20:18.180 --> 01:20:20.899
are all fit and in the gym and taking pictures

01:20:20.899 --> 01:20:24.739
of themselves. And it's silly. But if that's

01:20:24.739 --> 01:20:26.560
the generation coming through to go into the

01:20:26.560 --> 01:20:28.340
fire service, then that's a good thing. Because

01:20:28.340 --> 01:20:32.920
now they're more conscious of how healthy they

01:20:32.920 --> 01:20:34.979
are. Absolutely. I think with the argument with

01:20:34.979 --> 01:20:37.399
the people deeper into their careers, like, look.

01:20:37.970 --> 01:20:40.170
when you when you're done don't you want to be

01:20:40.170 --> 01:20:42.649
in the best shape so that you can prolong your

01:20:42.649 --> 01:20:45.289
retirement like on average we die it seems to

01:20:45.289 --> 01:20:48.430
be a nationally accepted standard of five years

01:20:48.430 --> 01:20:51.170
and no one's done a study yet but all over the

01:20:51.170 --> 01:20:53.090
country people say the same thing so it's obviously

01:20:53.090 --> 01:20:57.170
an observational you know number so even though

01:20:57.170 --> 01:21:00.180
you've got two years left you may not get to

01:21:00.180 --> 01:21:02.840
the point of your 30 -year -old self, but let's

01:21:02.840 --> 01:21:05.039
get you back to where your body composition is

01:21:05.039 --> 01:21:07.279
better and your cardiovascular system is better

01:21:07.279 --> 01:21:09.600
and your mental health is better before you make,

01:21:09.640 --> 01:21:12.159
as we said, that jarring transition and you leave

01:21:12.159 --> 01:21:15.220
your tribe and now you're in Kentucky somewhere

01:21:15.220 --> 01:21:17.319
and questioning what you're going to do next.

01:21:18.239 --> 01:21:24.760
Yeah, I see these retiree groups on Facebook.

01:21:25.119 --> 01:21:28.140
You see the same ones, I'm sure. And I see them

01:21:28.140 --> 01:21:33.079
at their luncheons, and I tell you, I'm almost

01:21:33.079 --> 01:21:38.359
as old as that group. And I don't know. I shake

01:21:38.359 --> 01:21:41.319
my head, man. And God love them. They did their

01:21:41.319 --> 01:21:43.460
job, and they're living their lives with their

01:21:43.460 --> 01:21:49.939
families. But it boggles my mind. But it's that

01:21:49.939 --> 01:21:53.279
culture. 30 years from now, what will that group

01:21:53.279 --> 01:21:56.069
look like? Hopefully, you know. they'll be transitioning

01:21:56.069 --> 01:21:57.930
to another career and they'll still be in great

01:21:57.930 --> 01:21:59.430
shape and their mental health will be intact.

01:21:59.770 --> 01:22:02.310
So this is the thing. I've said this many times.

01:22:03.949 --> 01:22:06.609
We stand on the shoulders of giants. Your generation

01:22:06.609 --> 01:22:11.029
and prior to that, whether it's SCBAs or EZIOs

01:22:11.029 --> 01:22:13.569
or whatever it is, there's so many pioneers on

01:22:13.569 --> 01:22:17.050
the operational side. But most of those innovations

01:22:17.050 --> 01:22:18.970
have already happened. There's only so many ways

01:22:18.970 --> 01:22:22.210
you can reimagine a halogen or a nozzle or a

01:22:22.210 --> 01:22:26.000
ladder. Where we can be pioneers now is to change

01:22:26.000 --> 01:22:28.979
the human and not only address the ill health,

01:22:29.039 --> 01:22:30.960
but actually then transition into performance.

01:22:31.600 --> 01:22:33.500
How can that firefighter make it up that set

01:22:33.500 --> 01:22:35.319
of stairs and still have a lower heart rate?

01:22:35.680 --> 01:22:37.699
And, you know, their breath work has now got

01:22:37.699 --> 01:22:39.800
them consuming less of the bottom. Now they're

01:22:39.800 --> 01:22:42.159
in the ability to really focus. So this is to

01:22:42.159 --> 01:22:44.199
me, you know, what we can do for the next generation

01:22:44.199 --> 01:22:48.819
is not invent a new mask or air pack, but. address

01:22:48.819 --> 01:22:50.680
all the things from the work week to the fitness

01:22:50.680 --> 01:22:53.760
standards to the mental health outlets so that

01:22:53.760 --> 01:22:56.840
this next generation can maintain a health in

01:22:56.840 --> 01:22:58.359
you know in a way that we've never seen in our

01:22:58.359 --> 01:23:01.859
profession before yeah so with that being said

01:23:01.859 --> 01:23:04.359
then before we close out is there anything else

01:23:04.359 --> 01:23:08.399
you want to say as no look i just if if someone

01:23:08.399 --> 01:23:11.949
needs help Use my cell phone. A lot of people

01:23:11.949 --> 01:23:13.750
call the firm, the big number, and by the time

01:23:13.750 --> 01:23:17.770
it gets to me, it's a little maddening. But I'll

01:23:17.770 --> 01:23:21.050
go back to that night in property class. I want

01:23:21.050 --> 01:23:22.850
people to be able to get a hold of me. So my

01:23:22.850 --> 01:23:26.350
cell is 407 -375 -8887. You can call me around

01:23:26.350 --> 01:23:28.510
the clock. And I appreciate you having me back.