This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr, yet
another company that's doing great things for
the first responder community. As a strength
and conditioning coach myself who also trains
tactical athletes, dissemination of wellness
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Now TeamBuilder is the premier strength and conditioning
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several features that really impress me. Firstly,
there is a full exercise library. So you, the
personal trainer, does not have to create that
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send out programming, but also individualize,
which I love. So you blanket program for everyone.
Now you can tweak based on someone's injury,
someone's need to maybe drop some body composition,
rather than having to write a program for every
single person on their own. TeamBuildr also
allows you to build custom questionnaires to
collate health and wellness data. It integrates
with wearables. And I think one of the most important
things is obviously it tracks. To me, it's imperative
that we as a profession start tracking our people
from day one and then over the full span of their
career, therefore catching potential wellness
issues and injuries before they happen. Now,
if you want to try TeamBuildr, they are offering
you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast,
a free 14 -day trial to experience all of the
features. And if you want to take a deeper dive
into TeamBuildr, listen to episode 1032 with
Melissa Mercado or go to teambuilder .com. And
I'll spell that to you because it's not as you
think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome
to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,
my name is James Gearing and this week it is
my absolute honor to welcome back onto the show
for the third time, firefighter turned lawyer,
Mike Cleland. Now in this third conversation,
Mike wanted to go over all the changes in workman's
comp laws when it comes to heart and lung presumption,
cancer presumption, PTSD presumption. Not to
mention topics like fitness standards in the
fire service and the 24 -72 work week. Now, before
we get to this incredible conversation, as I
say every week, please just take a moment. Go
to whichever app you listen to this on. Subscribe
to the show. Leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
almost 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in return
is that you help share these incredible men and
women's stories so I can get them to every single
person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said... I welcome back onto
the show Mike Cleland. Enjoy. Well, Mike, I want
to start by saying thank you for coming back
again. interviews i think we did in your office
and now we're sitting here in my home in ocala
so i just want to start by welcoming you to the
behind the shield podcast for the third time
great glad to be back thank you for having me
so the first time we spoke we talked to kind
of about your background a little bit the second
time you were with one of your uh and we talked
about the mental health app that they were developing
at the time. Now we're going to kind of take
a deep dive back into 2025 and then how we're
doing with the Heart and Lung Bill and Cancer
Bill and PTSD Bill and some other initiatives
that you've got. Before we start, for people
that haven't listened to the first or second,
let's kind of start at the beginning and give
an overview of your journey, where you kind of
grew up and then your journey into the fire service.
Sure. I've been in Central Florida, Orlando area
since 1974 when I was just a child. When I was
in high school, I was a much bigger guy. I was
about 6 '4", 265, and I wanted to go to college
and play football. football. That was my goal
in life. And that was upended when I had a terrible
knee injury in my senior year and they carried
me off the field while all the scouts were lined
up against the fence. So that was out. My brother,
Steve, who's a year and a half older than me,
was in the fire service at the time and convinced
me that when my knee got better to try the fire
service. I never dreamed of being a firefighter,
never have a thought of it like most kids do.
It just happened. And so I gave it a shot. In
fact, I started in fire standards when I was
a senior in high school, about to graduate. So
when I graduated high school at age 17, Chief
Chapman, City of Longwood, small city outside
of Orlando, hired me on. I was riding tailboard
at the time. And the rest is history. I spent
26 years in the fire service. a big union advocate
for my department. We organized in 1986. I retired
in 07 as a battalion chief outside the bargaining
unit, so I've seen both sides of the union management
spectrum. I can appreciate both sides, but I'm
a staunch union advocate, as was my brother.
He served a total of 30 years, ended up in the
city of Orlando. But at the end of my career,
I knew that When I was going to be retiring at
25, 26 years, I needed to get out. And that's
in part because of, you know, years of pulling
kids out of pools and cutting them out of cars
and dealing with lots of different types of things
that firefighters are faced with. I was 43 at
the time. I knew I had to do something else.
It was just time. I didn't want to see any more
bad shit. And I thought, you know, what can I
do at the age of 43? with a pension from the
frs which which i appreciate very much today
but i knew i couldn't do this job anymore so
i was at ucf at the time getting my undergraduate
degree in political science and somebody convinced
me why don't you try law school one of the lawyers
who represent the fpf and i i gave it a shot
i i took the lsat at the time in 2002 -ish I
was graduating at UCF with my undergrad. I took
the LSAT, and it just so happened that FAMU Law
School was resurrecting in the city of Orlando.
So they had opened their doors. I graduated.
I mean, I retired. I put my app in. They accepted
me, and I went through their four -year program.
Finished it up in about three and a half years
while I was still on the job. So when I retired
in 07, that's when I took the bar and passed.
I thought, you know what, I'm going to represent
firefighters the rest of my life, you know, and
so that's what I do today. A funny side note
to that, you know, when I was in, I think it
was my first year of law school, I was in property
or contracts or some really difficult, boring
law course, and I thought to myself, I'm 38 years
old. what the hell am I doing? What am I doing?
People hate lawyers as a rule, you know? And
I thought, what can I do so that when I get out
of here, people aren't going to look at me like,
oh, you're just a lawyer. I vowed to be available.
And so anybody who knows me and has hired me
to help them, they know they get my cell phone,
they can text, they can call nights, weekends,
it doesn't matter. So if there was any redeeming
quality of being an attorney, it is that I'm
going to make myself available to all my clients.
And today, I don't know, what is it, 17 years
later, all of my clients are first responders,
cops, firefighters, corrections officers. Beautiful.
I want to go all the way back to 18 -year -old
Mike. In all these conversations I've had now,
it seems like the science really backs up the
fact that people probably shouldn't go into this
profession until they're 21, kind of like the
cops, just from the development of the brain.
When you reflect back now at the age that you
entered, and let's say that we are fully staffed
and people are lining up around the building
to be firefighters again, like they were when
I first got hired. So there was that demand,
so you wouldn't have to pull from high schools.
Do you think that 18 was too old, excuse me,
too young in this journey for you? It's a fair
question. I don't know if it's necessarily that
it's age specific, but it's maturity and an understanding
of what to expect. Back then, I was immature.
I have an 18 -year -old son. He's immature. He's
a kid. I mean, he makes decisions that I still
shake my head at. I'm sure that's the way I was
back then. But this was a career that was fascinating
to me. It was intriguing to me. It was tough.
And those were my instincts. I wanted to help.
I thought it was a very cool job. Had I been
more mature at the age of 20, 21, 22 years old,
and had learned more about what the job entailed,
i .e. seeing some really bad stuff, I probably
would have at least tried to prepare myself a
little better. I think when you're that age and
you see stuff, you're working a trauma code in
the middle of the interstate at 2 in the morning,
or you have someone who's... Bodies burn beyond
recognition, and you're picking them out of cars.
That's really, really shocking. I knock on wood
today because some of my clients suffer from
PTSD that I made it out after 26 years of seeing
a bunch of bad stuff and am able to cope. I made
it out okay, and I represent some folks who didn't
and aren't okay. So I don't know if it's age
specific, but certainly maturity and with age
comes maturity. So I get your take on maybe it's
too young to put kids into this position, but
it just happened the way it did. And I got lucky
and got out. It'd be interesting to get your
take on this. I have seen a massive correlation
between people who really found themselves in
the darkest places in our profession. And unaddressed
childhood trauma. So I was in a house fire when
I was four. Parents had a horrific divorce. Had
another near -death experience when I was about
12. And so there was a lot of stuff, but woven
in just by chance, just by winning the address
lottery. I grew up on a farm, so I was around.
My dad was a veterinary surgeon, so he was healing.
There was animals, there was nature, there was
fresh food. I'm one of five kids, so the dining
room table was always packed, you know, full
of laughter and different people cycling through.
So all the things that we know help heal people
were just organically woven into my childhood.
I was extremely fortunate. And so I never got
to that darkest of places. Now, don't get me
wrong, I had some low lows. You know, there's
some things that happened with my son and some
other things that, you know. definitely were
a struggle, but not to the point of drowning
in a bottle, not to the point of sitting there
with a pistol. So when I reflect back now and
hear about all these different stories, that
seems to be one of the biggest common denominators.
When people say, well, how come so -and -so is
okay? Well, what was that other person's past?
When you reflect on your early life, were there
some strong healing elements that set you up
for success with some of the struggles that you
had when you were younger? You know, I didn't
have a good childhood. I have a brother, Steve,
I told you about. He was a firefighter 30 years.
I lost my sister to ovarian cancer at age 24.
My mom and father, my dad died at a very young
age, 34, but he was also a very bad guy. He was
brutal to my mother. I remember lying in bed
at night hearing the screams. But we were too
young to do anything. My mom, in effect, escaped
with the three of us, my brother and my sister
and I, and raised us on her own, worked two jobs.
She was never around because she worked 8 to
5, came home, showered, and then worked nights.
So when I did see her on the weekends, it was
short -lived. She was sleeping. She was tired.
My childhood was pretty rough. I was also in
a position where I had to become an adult really,
really quickly. And I don't know why. I mean,
my brother and sister, I just took it on to help
raise them and steer them in the right direction.
And so I was put into that situation very, very
early in life. And so it, I think, helped me
prepare. for the rigors of the fire department
and anything else that I'd seen. I think I was
hardened very, very young through nobody's fault.
It was just the situation that my mom was in.
She did the best she could. And then when I was
early in the fire department, my sister developed
cancer and ultimately passed. So that was really
bad. And by then, my brother Steve and I were
in the fire service, and then we just spent the
rest of my mom's life taking care of her like
she did us. When you reflect back now, what were
the things between early life to today that you
used to offload some of these checks? Because,
I mean, you've touched on many of the bad calls
that you've seen. What were the positive coping
mechanisms that you learned into? You know, I
don't know, James. I don't know that I necessarily
did anything or had any coping mechanism. I mean,
I saw a psychologist. In my, while I was in law
school, just to talk about my childhood traumas.
But I saw him for about six months. I believe
that he helped me. I don't know that it necessarily
helped me cope with seeing what I saw over all
those years. But maybe it did. But I don't, some
people meditate, some people do yoga, some people
seek psychotherapy, things like that. I tell
you what I do do, and that is I've been an avid
gym rat. I stay in the gym every day for an hour,
and I work out. I'm 61 now, so I'm far from what
I used to be, but I make it a point to be in
the gym seven days a week at least for an hour.
If I really dig deep, it's probably that's where
I get out my, not frustration, but deal with,
you know, I get to disconnect. which is healthy,
I think. Absolutely. I mean, that's one of mine,
hands down. Yeah, yeah. What about transition?
You, unlike many people, it's funny, you just
met my wife a minute ago and we were talking
about her graduating med school and she went
into that at 40 years old. So I hope this is
inspiring people that are listening, thinking
they're too old to turn a page in their book.
Absolutely not. But when you transitioned out
of the fire service, a lot of people struggle
with that loss of tribe, that loss of identity
or purpose. What was your transition like? Because
it's a very unique one, having another profession
that you're kind of entering as you walk out
the back door of a firehouse. Yeah. And by the
way, I still get questions from young guys who
are retiring either without fulfilling their
25 or 30 years or folks who got in early like
I did. And they're transitioning out at a relatively
young age. And I always encourage them to go
to law school. I do. I mean, a lot of them have
undergraduate degrees, so they're set up for
that. My transition was seamless simply because
when I retired and had my law degree, I thought,
what a great idea to represent solely first responders.
So I get to stay connected, have conversations
every day of my life with firefighters and cops,
yet I don't have to go on the call at 3 o 'clock
in the morning. I don't know who's looking down
on me, but I worked my ass off. There's no question
about it. I sacrificed about 10 years of my life
for education. I didn't go out. I didn't do all
those things that firefighters do and cops do.
I stayed in the books. And a lot of firefighters
have part -time jobs. And so on the two days
off, they do other work. And I just kept my nose
in the books. And it turned out that I... I guess
I made the right decision. I'm super happy in
my practice. I feel like I'm 30 years old, but
I'm 61. I got another 10 or 15 years left in
me. I know it because I just feel that good about
what I do and about who I represent. So my transition
was luckily seamless. But I encourage anybody
who's getting out of the fire service to definitely
find a vocation, whatever it is, to keep you
busy. It seems like service is another... peace.
I've had so many people, especially from the
military, and while I went into finance, I went
into real estate, and it just didn't work for
them because they didn't feel like they were
giving back. The moment they found whatever that
profession was, and like you said, you got law,
but still helping first responders. That seems
to be the missing piece. And I always tell people
this, you know, what we do in uniform, that's
not who you are. Who you are is a kind, compassionate
person who's courageously going to possibly sacrifice
their their health, or even their life to protect
other people. And at one point, you put a uniform
on. So when you come out the back door, to me,
you're the same exact person. You're someone
that's brave enough to stand up and keep serving
in your community. And so I think hearing people
that have found professions like yourself, like
me, even though I never anticipated being behind
a microphone as a profession, that's such a healing
transition because your mission hasn't changed.
You're still helping people. No, you're right.
I mean, you put the uniform on, you're still
the same person when you took it off, when you
take it off. I think a lot of guys, firefighters,
women and men, when they transition out, let's
assume that they're in their 50s or 60s and they're
going out into retirement and they plan to do
X, Y, and Z. You know, they move to Montana and
go fishing and do what retired people do. I get
calls all the time from people like that who
say, gee, it's just, I need more. I was so immersed
in it, giving, giving back, serving, all of those
adjectives to describe the actual person, that
when they go from that to nothing. in terms of
that i don't mean their lives aren't worth anything
they just they transition into having fun fishing
or hunting and doing those types of things there
is a sense of loss i think um and i and i get
that from them uh when i speak to them i speak
to firefighters all day long um and so i yeah
man transitioning out is a difficult thing uh
and also i think it gives firefighters and cops
and people who have experienced trauma a lot
of time to think and that can be you know not
a good thing yeah uh their their minds become
preoccupied with what their careers were and
what they saw sometimes i'll reflect back and
then i discard it it's almost like an ocd it's
a bad thought that you can't it's an irrational
thought that you can't discard and some people
I mean I speak to people all the time who have
that it's sad and so you know I try to steer
them in the right direction absolutely well I
want to go it'd be interesting your journey into
the fire service in the 80s walk us through the
support or lack thereof for the physical and
mental health and kind of give us a timeline
from then to where we are now sure I graduated
high school in 82. I was a volunteer until March
of 83 is when I became a full -time firefighter.
I served until 2007. In the 80s, we didn't have
any mental health, and I would say that transitioned
into the early 90s. We didn't have any mental
health, at least not that I was aware of, outlet.
that the department sponsored. And I don't think
anybody did at the time. I do remember, though,
when I was a lieutenant, which had to have been
in the mid to late 90s, CISD, that acronym for
critical incident stress debriefing, became a
thing. And all the departments, it was Seminole
County, and we were in the middle of it with
Altamont, Longwood, and Winter Springs, and Castleberry.
I chose to represent our department in that regard.
And so I think we went to a course or two or
three courses and were certified as the critical
incident stress debriefing guy. You know what
I mean? The flag bearer for our department. That
brought into the fold at the time EAP, the Employee
Assistance Program, with our department anyway.
So once the CISD teams were established and EAP
came in, then the mental health part of the job
became important. I think it could have been
much more. important, become better funded, and
we could get doctors on board and things like
that. But at the time, I do remember coming back
from a few scenes that are really nasty. We sit
around the kitchen table, make some coffee and
sit around and talk to each other about how we
felt. But again, in the 90s, certainly in the
80s and into the 90s, it became a stigma to have
the need for help. I think it's still that way
today, but not as much. Unfortunately, in my
opinion, suicides have just raised the awareness
of the need for help tenfold. Unfortunately,
it costs all those lives and are costing lives
today, as we saw recently from the villages.
The law as it relates to PTSD, if I can sort
of transition into that, was really bad in the
70s, 80s, 90s, and even into the 2000s. And under
workers' comp, workers' comp provides two things,
medical care and wage loss. Well, for what the
statute considers mental or nervous injuries,
which include PTSD, it only provided medical
care. So if you suffered from... any kind of
trauma at work, then the claim could be filed
under workers' comp. And by the way, first responders,
especially cops, are very reluctant to even file
the claim. But those who do and those who did
over those years could only get a counselor.
And I'm not demeaning that, but there's no psychiatrist
appointment. There's none of that. It's simply
some mental health counselor. to deal with your
problem. And if you were incapable of working,
whether it was a week, a month, six months, a
year, because of that mental or nervous injury
or post -traumatic stress, you could not get
wage loss, the 66 and two -thirds that workers'
compensation pays for a broken leg. So for years
and years, I never understood how that made any
sense. I was also in the legislature from 2012
to 2014, so I know what the process is like to
get a bill through. It's terribly difficult.
Nevertheless, when I was up there, I used to
think, why in the hell aren't people, first responders
who suffer from post -traumatic stress, given
wage loss? If I'm on a roof cut in a hole and
I fall through and break my leg and I'm off for
six months, I'm getting wage loss and medical
care. Yet I'm traumatized by what I've witnessed,
whether it was cumulative or a mass casualty
incident, and I can't work. I can't focus for
six months. I get medical care, but I don't get
any wage loss. These injuries are no less important
and in most cases more deadly than an injury
by accident, that first scenario I created. So
finally... With the help of the FPF and others,
and I was a consultant a little bit on that issue,
we got a bill passed that now provides for wage
loss. However, it only provides wage loss if
you fit the criteria. There are enumerated criteria
under which you can get wage loss and medical
care, and they are witnessing the death of a
child or a mass casualty incident. injuries that
shock the conscience, whatever that means. So
those cases are easily denied, and you have to
fight for that wage loss. It was a step forward
for sure, James, but it wasn't what we wanted.
And to get back in, to knock on the door again
in the Florida legislature to address the same
issue and increase those benefits. I know by
experience it doesn't happen the following session.
It's sessions later, years and years later. They
don't have the appetite. They feel like they
gave so much that to come back and want more,
politics becomes involved and it's nasty. In
your opinion, knowing that, from what I understand,
people have told me this, that... in the military
in the va you can self -report ptsd and you will
have access to certain things and that's obviously
growing and they're in texas they're fighting
obviously for you know ayahuasca and some of
these other plant medicines that are having a
lot of success as well but at least you know
therapy and and sadly a lot of meds are thrown
at them too but someone is at least there to
help someone is trying to help why has there
been so much resistance in the first responder
professions, even though it's apples to apples
pretty much with our military men and women,
that when you do and see the kind of things that
we do in uniform, more often than not, there
will be an impact on the mental health of our
people. This is my opinion only, but I think
there's a skepticism as a rule among legislators
that you can somehow fake. A post -traumatic
stress or a mental or nervous injury. Now, doctors
will sit in committee and scream at them that
you can't. They know how to detect whether you're
feigning a post -traumatic stress injury. I handled
a PTSD case in Central Florida in front of a
board of trustees for a line -of -duty disability
pension. I won't mention the department. And
simply because the firefighter had some childhood
trauma that they couldn't vote to make the decision
that what my client had witnessed over his career
caused his PTSD because it was mixed somehow
with childhood divorce and he had some abuse
a little bit, whatever. They couldn't. pull it
together, even in the face of their own IME,
their board's expert that my client went to,
who suggested the causation was the job, the
cause was the job. They couldn't do it. And we
lost that case. It was terribly unfortunate.
That, together with firefighters who have military
experience, or or who have faced any amount of
childhood trauma, I think the legislature just
doesn't want to acknowledge that post -traumatic
stress, without enumerating all of these things,
is worthy of the 66 and two -thirds that workers'
compensation pays. It's tragic. There's this
idea that the insurance lobby, League of Cities,
Association of Counties, And these interest groups
get in the legislature's offices. They line up
outside your door. And I was there for two years.
I was immersed in it. The League, the Association
of Counties, the other insurance lobbyists, they
get in there and they convince these legislators
that the floodgates will open and that money
is going to come pouring out of the system and
cost them. The insurance rates are going to go
up. They convince these folks of that. At the
same time, these folks who are listening and
vote in their favor are the ones whose pockets
are lined when they run for reelection. So I
don't want to get too in the weeds about politics,
but I've done all of that. I practiced law. I
was a firefighter. I was in the legislature.
It all comes together. You know what I mean?
It comes full circle. So that creates the difficulty
in getting what should be. uh in the law in the
law i feel like we've shot ourselves in the foot
by the limited understanding of mental health
in our profession i think you know like you said
in the 80s we weren't having this conversation
so as people say they did the best of what they
had what should be happening in 2025 though is
people should be saying well you wouldn't have
any firefighters if it wasn't for childhood trauma
if someone with a beautiful disney -like upbringing
is not going to raise their hand and say i will
go and see that horrific shit i will cut people
out of cars i will go and retrieve the burnt
cadavers they're not this is a you know it's
a beautiful thing that some of the people that
have had these really rough upbringings want
to be the protector you go to a crossroads you
know james and mike can either go one way and
we become criminals or we go another way and
become helpers it's pretty much you look at the
aces store uh the uh adverse childhood experience
score we supposedly on average have one of about
six out of ten and so do incarcerated men and
women so you know hurt people can hurt people
or they can help people depending on their path
so understanding that that A lot of people that
are going to be good firefighters, cops, you
know, prison guards, whatever, even dispatchers,
especially the ones that are out in the streets
though. We are going to have some stuff. You've
got some stuff. I've got some stuff. Now, the
goal is to get people to understand that we need
to work on that at the front door and create
resilience. And therefore, those don't become
buried down. And then, you know, we'll rear their
head later on. But they become strength. They
become resilience. But I've said this ever since
I put my first app in for Miami. It was a pre
-app for Miami Beach. And I was honest about
some stuff I'd done in the past. And he screwed
it up and threw it at me. And I was like, oh,
so you got to lie to be a firefighter. And I've
lied through polygraphs, lied through. And again,
it wasn't anything horrific, but I'd done some
stuff when I was younger. Ironically, substances
that are now known to heal PTSD. But we project
this image that we want choir boys and girls.
But that's a complete facade. And it's not, as
you pointed out, usually one thing. It's death
by a thousand cuts. It is the unaddressed childhood
trauma and the sleep deprivation and the organizational
betrayal and the things that we've seen and alcohol
and blah, blah, blah. So it really just smacks
of the complete lack of desire to really understand
this population and put in. so that as a young
man or woman enters our profession, we're understanding
at the front door the kind of human they are.
We're addressing not just their physical fitness,
but their mental health. And then that way, as
they walk through, we've removed the barriers
of entry to maintaining fitness standards, to
maintaining the ability to seek counseling or
whatever the other thing is. And you have a healthy
workforce, which as we talked about before we
hit record, just like the 42 -hour work week,
that is proactive and fiscally sound. But what
we do is this kind of false economy where we
just pretend none of that is real. And then when
they break, we make them fight for every single
penny. And you have these men and women with
cancer and career ending back injuries and mental
health crises that now have all this added stress
to even just get the be taken care of for the
ultimate breaking from. not solely the job, but
the kind of person that would even enter the
job in the first place. Yeah, in that regard,
the biggest disappointment coming out of this
new PTSD bill, and again, I'm not trying to diminish
what the FPF, Bernie Rock, all those guys up
there did because it's a step forward. The biggest
disappointment to me was that the legislature,
who has zero, I don't know, 400 guys up there.
legislators have zero idea what mental health
in the fire service is or in law enforcement.
The end product was that you couldn't get wage
loss unless you had an acute injury. One of those
enumerated things. When in fact, I would bet
a majority, a vast majority of mental health,
including PTSD, injuries are cumulative. You
know, I started in 82. By the time I got out
in 07, I would never meet one of those criteria
because I'm okay. But the cumulative effect of
everything I saw is not addressed in that bill.
So you're dealing with people making laws, and
I'm not even talking about the state level. We're
talking county, municipal government, all the
way down to the bottom. They're just not trained
in it. So our approach has to be different. And
I don't think it comes in the way of educating
any particular legislator about mental health.
Why? Because they're only there as long as their
term allows them to be. So it's all going to
go over their head. They're not going to listen.
So the approach has to be instead of trying to
get to Tallahassee and convincing them that they
need to provide wage loss in case someone gets
hurt with a mental injury, we've got to have
a different approach. One of the approaches is
something that you're involved, Second Alarm
Project and these other programs who educate
the first responders themselves and management
to some degree. I taught Hart Long at the last...
Second Alarm Project. And in the group were admin.
There were some chiefs. There were some HR people.
So I think instead of going to people who make
the laws or who sit on county commissions or
city commissions, it's to go the opposite way.
It's to go from the ground up. You know, Ronald
Reagan, who I thought was a wonderful president,
he had that supply -side economics. It's trickle
down. You know, you give all the tax breaks to
the big and it'll trickle down to the bottom.
It's the same concept with what we've been doing
and probably should continue to do with mental
health laws. But it ain't working. It's just
not working. So kudos to you, Second Alarm Project
and organizations like that who now want to get
in on the ground and teach the firefighters about
resources, about what to expect, about signs
and symptoms that you could pick up. pick up
on a colleague, get them help. Make it private.
Make it at least as private as you can so that
they will reach out. The reluctance is just...
Imagine the reluctance of a police officer. Imagine
a guy or a gal with a family at home, two, three
kids, who carries a gun every day to work, is
really wrecked, but knows that if he goes to
the police chief or the sheriff and says, I have
PTSD because the first thing is... being taken
from is his gun. And so talk about a reluctance
to come forward. I got a family to feed. I can't
come forward. And I can't ask for help because
they're going to take my gun and I won't have
a salary and I burned all my leave and now what?
So I have to deal with it. And that's the tragedy
of it all. So I don't know the answer. I just
don't. The ground -up approach to me is a better
one. Yeah, I agree. And this is what I talk about
a lot. I want to get people educated and angry.
Yeah, yeah. The child labor laws didn't come
from people shrugging their shoulders and doing
nothing. They came from them saying, why are
we putting children up chimneys and why are they
working in factories? You know, the Million Man
March was a million men and women. It wasn't
like Steve and James, you know, just, you know,
there was so many people. So when a lot of people
rise up together, things change. And this is
what we were talking before I hit record. This
is what is maddening to me is even just getting
our, you know, my rank, the firefighters, to
go, for example, why are we working 56 hours
a week? Why am I now being forced to work 80
from the leadership failures of people in government
buildings that work 40 hours a week? Like getting
people to just understand, look, this isn't right.
And all these deaths are not right. You talk
about law enforcement. I saw the other day, I
think it was L .A. County Sheriff's Department
have 12 suicides, law enforcement suicides under
this. The point was made under the certain sheriff
thing that's in at the moment. So that's just
one department, 12 people taking their own lives
where they're trying to protect other people
and stay alive in their job. And so I agree 100%.
We have to really break down these walls. We
have to understand that our first responders
are overworked, underslept, and their ability
to critically think is diminished. And get them
to understand that and then realize that, as
I'm sure when you entered and certainly when
I did, go back to when it was so competitive
that you had people lining up around the buildings.
No one can tell me that recruitment is how it's
supposed to be now. Like where I live in Marion
County, they're just scraping from everywhere
they can to get people to fill seats. And within
that group that are going to be some phenomenal
firefighters and they're going to be some people
that are going to absolute liability to their
department, you know, their own health and then
their ability to deliver service. So it is up
to us because I can tell you for eight and a
half years, I've thought that unions were going
to step in and champion this. And I thought that
chiefs, you know, I mean, I'll put it out here.
Danny Alvarez had this bill put out that recommended
the 42 -hour workweek in the state of Florida.
And the Florida Fire Chiefs Association put out
an email saying that they support the bill except
the 42 -hour workweek. Well, if the men and women
that stand at that podium and do their crocodile
tears speech at the firefighter funeral are then
opposing a workweek that would actually be healthy
for their men and women. To me, that underlines
the level of support or lack thereof from them.
The IAFF has never talked about the work week,
even though now they're based in Boston, who
works 42 hours a week, 24 -72. So this is my
point, is we've waited for the people that we've
paid, people with the salaries and the bugles
that should have been changing this, and they
haven't. So it's up to us to million -man -march
it ourselves. It's that simple. Yeah, I agree
with that approach. Fire chiefs, I think, are
reluctant to do much of anything that's controversial.
That's been my experience. Typically, they're
at the top, riding it out, making some money,
get a pension, and go home. You get a rare exception
to that rule with a fire chief who's a guy's
guy, firefighter's firefighter, who's just going
to champion the cause until he or she's out.
But that's a rarity. And then above them are
the commission and the county and state legislators
and even in Congress and D .C. So there doesn't
seem to be that success from the top down. So
I applaud the concept, the idea, and everything
you're doing to bring it out, make people aware
of it. So you're king for a day now. You get
to write legislation on the stick with PTSD for
a moment. What should it look like? It should
look like any other injury written in the statute.
Chapter 440 is the Workers' Comp Act. It's a
book this thick. Any injury, if you're on the
clock and you hurt yourself, that's what we call
an injury by accident. There's occupational disease,
which is hypertension, heart disease, and tuberculosis.
The mental or nervous injury provision of the
statute is in Chapter 440, but it carves out
the wage loss unless you meet one of these enumerated
criteria. You simply take the criteria out. If
someone's diagnosed with post -traumatic stress,
job -related, they should get wage loss and medical
care. It's as simple as that. In fact, when I
was... Up in Tallahassee, lobbying at one of
the sessions for a comp bill, to me, even having
been in the legislature and gone through the
sausage -making process of a bill, this fix was
so easy because all you had to do was strike
the words physical injury out of the current,
the old mental health. legislation. Let me back
up just a little bit. The old law said you could
get medical care, but if you had a physical injury
that was the cause of the PTSD, then you could
get wage loss. So my idea was just strike through
the physical injury. Take the physical injury
component out of the law. Now you get wage loss
for a mental or nervous injury that's proven
to be job related. Now we can argue all day about
whether the cause of the PTSD or the mental or
nervous injury was the job. But medical doctors
make that decision as they do today in workers'
comp. Every case I have that goes to trial is
all based on medical testimony and expert testimony.
So it would have been no different. But leave
it to the legislature to bring the idea in, get
a bill in the House, get a bill in the Senate.
And by the time it makes through all those committees
and comes to the floor, of each chamber it's
chopped up to what we have now which is ridiculous
when in fact it just it was one strike through
period one strike through but league of cities
association of counties and the other insurance
lobbyists they wouldn't have it they go in do
their work with the legislators and here we here
we are well it's crazy as well because the focus
is on you know money Instead of the person. But
even when you flip that around, again, this is
what I used to sell the 2472, is like, if you
look at the money, it's costing you so much more
breaking your people. And no one wants to work
for you anymore. So now you've got these vacancies,
you've got people, you know, time and a half
for overtime on paper, plus, you know, the trickle
effect of the ill health and the divorces and
everything else that is affecting. What blows
me away is why are we not focusing? Well, then.
We want to save money on this bill. So let's
put the bill exactly how you just said. But let's
look at how can we stop so many people getting
mental health issues? What are we doing? You
know, there's a beautiful Desmond Tutu quote
that I've posted recently. He said, we spend
so much time pulling people out of the river,
we forget to go upstream to find out why they're
falling in in the first place. That's exactly
it. We can, there are so many elements that we
can use to absolutely minimize the number of
people that get to a point of clinical PTSD where
they need to leave the job and have a retirement
payment. We can get other people the ongoing
therapy to help kind of offset some of these
issues, whether it's on the job, whether it's
personal, whether it's combined with an injury
or an illness, and then get them back on their
feet and get them back to work again. Because
one of the things that kills me with this whole
retirement thing is then these people are terrified,
whether it's an injury, whether it's especially
an injury like a back injury. is now you have
to stay disabled too. There's no like, let's
work on getting you well. There's like, oh, there's
going to be a guy in the bushes with a camera
and they're trying to catch me out. So the whole
way everything is set up is to, if you even get
that retirement, right, well, don't you dare
get better or the money's going to stop. So why
don't we focus on the things that contribute
to the cancers and the PTSD and all these other
things as well so that we can save money in these
bills? Look, I welcome the thought and your theory
is right. Your philosophy is right. But when
you talk to people who will make these decisions,
those are the folks who are beholden to special
interest. And it's just too powerful. And again,
I'm 61 now. I was a union guy my whole life and
tried to champion good things. And it's a struggle.
And I look back at any advancement and I find
it. Disappointing. We've made some steps, but
geez. But I do think, I really do think that
if progress is to be made at a quicker pace or
a more comprehensive improvement to things that
we've been talking about, it's got to come from
the bottom up. And we have to educate the masses
rather than the few. In other words, fend for
ourselves. I'm teaching these kids in these classes
about signs and symptoms. What can you do? How
can you help? Get them to these people. Get them
to those people. Get them help early. All of
these things. Because absent that, you think
the suicide rate is crazy now. Imagine a generation
from now, if we don't continue to do, I'm not
including myself, I'm including you, do what
you do, it's going to be exponentially worse.
I think this is why I've made the point about
recruitment or the lack thereof. It's like, don't
act like it's plateaued. The line is still nosediving.
It's getting worse and worse. And there are going
to be departments that one day are going to have
to tell their people, hey, we don't have a fire
department anymore. I just saw one. Where was
it? I forget now. I think it was in California.
Yeah, it was. Kings County. Not Kings County.
One of the cities within. We're about to go back
to volunteer. Oh, wow. In 2025. Jeez. you know,
and Central California, you know, fire departments.
So this is the issue is it is getting worse and
worse and worse. But, you know, just to beat
the drum that I, you know, beat all the time,
flog that poor dead horse. If we're talking about
mental health, sleep deprivation is directly
related to that. If we're talking about cancer,
sleep deprivation is a carcinogen. And we're
talking about the heart and lung bill, which
we'll get to. Sleep deprivation is directly related
to weight gain and all things disease. So if
you want to do one thing to make a massive impact
on all these. invest in your people and create
a de -shift, that will get young people wanting
to do this job again. But that's a vision. I'm
not being silly. That's a vision that you can't
convince someone who's got a limited time in
office, whether it's a fire chief or a politician,
that that's what he or she should be doing. They
want to know about the here and the now. They
want to fix now. And if it doesn't fix it now,
They don't want to hear about it. Or they listen,
but they don't act. You have a vision. And the
people who make decisions about how to implement
those things are not the ones who want to hear
that vision. They want to hear what's going to
happen in the next year. And that's the problem.
That's the disconnect. Yeah. I mean, it's funny
because you can listen to City of Gainesville.
They went to 2472 in September and not all ranks,
but at the firefighter level, they are fully
staffed now. Yeah. And they've got four, you
know. Yeah, you're right. These are case studies
that need to be preached at every commission
meeting in the state of Florida. You know what
I mean? But they don't, like I said, I presented
with three departments that had gone to it at
the Florida Fire Chiefs Conference. And then
their response a few months later is that email.
Right. You know what I mean? So I agree with
you completely. I mean, there are some phenomenal
chiefs. And I want to kudos to anyone who has
the guts or union leaders that have forced this.
Big change ruffles feathers. So you going to
the Fire Chiefs Association, I applaud you for
that. But you could not have walked out of there
thinking they're going to champion what I just
suggested. Oh, no. I looked at their faces. Of
course. And I heard some of the comments. Right.
Because that ruffles feathers. Imagine them going
back to the city manager or the county commission
and saying, here's a new idea. It's going to
cost us five now. It's going to save us 20 in
10 years. They don't want to hear it because
that 20 -year savings, they want to know how
to... We don't have the budget for that. No,
no, no. Maybe next year. Maybe next year. It's
kick the can down the road, that silly cliche.
But that's what it is. It's crazy. Absolutely.
All right. Well, we talked about PTSD. Let's
do the same thing. Let's go back to the 80s.
Talk to me about cancer now. Yeah, I mean, look,
I don't know the data and the stats about cancer
diagnosis back when I was on the job. But when
it became important enough for the locals to
get involved, the unions, the state organizations.
They did a lot of great work. The end product
in 20, I think it was 18 or 2019 when this bill
was signed into law, is the first cancer legislation
for the state of Florida affecting firefighters.
And I did a little bit of consulting with the
FPF. It was a real struggle, James, simply because
we didn't want it to be part of the Workers'
Comp Act. And that's kind of a misnomer when
people call me who've diagnosed and, you know,
should I file it under workers' comp? Well, you
can't. And there's good reason for that. In my
opinion only, I think there's good reason for
that. If I'm diagnosed with cancer like my sister
was at age 18, I wanted to go to the best hospital,
best doctors. If I got to go to Duke or Emory
or NIH, that's where I want to go to treat my
cancer. I don't want to be diagnosed with cancer
in the state of Florida as a firefighter and
go to a workers' comp oncologist. So that, together
with the insurance lobby saying the rates are
going to skyrocket because of the increased number
of cancers in firefighting, the end product were
21. different types of cancers. It is not a workers'
comp injury or accident. And there are multiple
criteria that you must meet in order to have
a claim for cancer. First, it has to be one of
those enumerated cancers. Secondly, you have
to be on that department for five consecutive
years prior to diagnosis. You can't have used
tobacco products, any tobacco products, for that
previous five consecutive years. You can't be
in a different profession that has a higher incidence
of the type of cancer you're claiming. And the
only example I can probably give you there as
a footnote is, let's say it's a melanoma, a skin
cancer. Invasive skin cancers and melanomas are
covered under the presumption. If you were a
lifeguard on your two days off for the last 10
years, I think you'd have, I think the... City
or the county would have difficulty in going
ahead and approving that because of that part
-time job with a higher incidence of skin cancers.
I don't know that, but that's... an example I
would give that would fit that criteria of being
in another profession over the previous five
years that had a higher incidence of the cancer
that you're alleging. And I lifeguarded on my
days off, by the way. Did you really? I would
have been screwed for a short time. Yeah, for
that type of cancer anyway. And so what it provides
is that you have to have, you must have, the
department -sponsored health program because
that's where... the cancer treatment would come.
And the positive thing about that is under your
group health policy, you get to choose your doctors.
So that's the upside. You have to have the department
-sponsored health plan, and any out -of -pockets
co -pays or the like would be reimbursed by the
department. Also, the department would give a
$25 ,000 lump sum stipend. Some people get a
little bit confused about, well, what's that
for? Just throw me a check for $25 ,000. The
idea behind that, the legislative intent, as
we say, was that if I'm a firefighter and I get
diagnosed with enumerated cancer and I meet all
the other criteria and I want to go to Duke for
care or Emory for care or NIH for care, let's
say I'm up there eight, ten weeks of chemo. I
want to be able to have my family with me. So
the idea behind that money was so that you could
bring your family with you for lodging and meals
and things like that. Again, like the PTSD bill,
it's good. It's better. But the FPF, Rocco and
Bernie, those guys did a yeoman's job. It could
be better. You know what I mean? It could be
less restrictive. It could include... additional
cancers that have been proven in the fire search
to have a higher incident. Is breast cancer in
that? It is. Yeah. Let me double check this for
sure. Yes. Yes. Brilliant. Ovarian as well. I
see. Yeah. Excellent. So one of the things that
I've heard about cancer presumptions specifically
in states that have the presumptive law. is horror
story after horror story of firefighters being
fought and even people in the insurance side
being heard to say, we just fight them until
they die. Talk to me about the insidious, nasty
side of the opposition to actually follow through
with some of these presumption laws. I've been
litigating heart presumption cases since I started
in 07. And those are hotly litigated. Those cases
are denied routinely, and that's why I do what
I do. The cancer cases, when I get calls, I tell
my clients or potential clients of all the criteria,
assuming they meet them and they are entitled
to the benefits that the law provides, nine times
out of ten, again, in my experience only, the
department provides the benefit. two cases where
the department has, as we say, fought or defended
against providing the benefit. And I don't go
into the circuit court with these cases. So I
tell, in these two cases where they were denied,
I told them, this is what I'll do. I'll pick
up the phone or I'll write a letter. Let's try
to talk about this. Let's see if we can't get
them to come around. So I get medical records.
And on both occasions, they tendered the $25
,000 and provided the benefit simply by talking
to the folks. Because the same defense lawyers
for any particular municipality who's going to
fight me on a heart -lung case are going to be
the ones that are signing here. And I have a
good relationship with most defense lawyers.
So I pick up the phone. I go, hey, Joe Smith
got a melanoma. Why are you guys denying this?
Do you really want to fight this? You really
want to go and fight this? This guy's going to
call the press. It's just so silly. Well, you
know, and some silly argument about how they're
going to defend the case. And then, you know,
a few days later, they're like, Mike, we got
it. We're going to pick it up. So I've not had
an experience like you suggested where they fight
them until they die. They fight the heart claims,
trust me. I'm in the arena every day with those
types of claims. But I've not had too much pushback
on these. I think it was the Carolinas specifically
I'd heard that kind of horror story from. Every
state law, cancer laws are state -specific, so
I don't know what the criteria are in any particular
state. I'm only licensed in Florida, so I can't
speak to that. But it doesn't surprise me. In
the end, it's an insurance dispute. So what is
different about the Heart and Lung Bill, and
why do you have such a harder time making those
go through? Yeah, good question, and I won't
take a long time. Back in 1965, the legislature
in Florida thought at the time firefighters were
exposed to everything that— we were exposed to,
and thus they suggested, I don't know if it was
epidemiologically proven, but they suggested
that heart disease and hypertension and tuberculosis
should be presumed to be job -related, just because
of what we're exposed to. So fast forward however
many years, there are certain criteria to be
covered under the heart -lung presumption as
it's loosely dubbed. You have to be... full -time
firefighter or cop or corrections officer. In
2000, corrections and police officers were brought
into the fold. It used to be just firefighters.
So today, it's those three protected class members.
You have to have a form of heart disease. electrical
form, plumbing, whatever it is. Typically it's
a stent or an arrhythmia or something like that.
You have to have a pre -employment physical at
the time you were hired that failed to evidence
anything that's claimed. And then you had to
have a disabling event. The disabling event triggers
you. So I'll give you a quick example. If you
go to the hospital with chest pain, they send
you to the cath lab, you go up, you have a stent
placed. During that period, you're disabled from
performing the essential functions of your job
as a firefighter. That triggers the case at all.
You could go 30 years on the job and have your
coronary artery stenosed to 70%, never have a
disabling event. The day you retire, have a massive
MI and not be covered. So you have to be employed.
You have to meet those criteria. It's not an
automatic. It's a presumption. So the burden
shifts to the carrier, the insurance company,
the employer, to prove that something else caused
that heart disease. And that's terribly difficult.
So they deny it on any grounds. And what has
incensed me, James, since I started doing this,
I... When I got my law license, I had two tracks
I could take, one of two. Either the traditional
grievance arbitration route, union -side labor,
negotiating contracts, handling arbitrations,
or the heart -lung presumption. I immersed myself
in this stuff, and I found it the most fascinating
area of the law. So it's what I do. I also travel
and teach, and I teach for one reason, because
the insurance carriers don't tell you. about
the law. They don't tell you your entitlement.
They don't tell you about impairment benefits.
They don't tell you about anything nuanced in
the law. That makes me crazy. What they do is
they know that there's 35 ,000 unassuming firefighters
out there and twice as many cops and corrections
officers. They know nothing about this law. And
so if they get 10 claims, an adjuster, they send
out 10 denials written in legalese. So these
guys look at it and go, oh, I guess for all these
reasons I don't qualify. Eight of those guys
are going away. He's going to give up. Two will
call somebody like me or someone else. That makes
me nuts. So my part of my frustration is that
not only am I going to litigate these cases.
Just take them in and beat them up. I'm going
to travel the state and I'm going to teach this
stuff to firefighters and cops. And that's what
I do, you know, a few times a year, conferences
and things like that. Like next week, I'll see
you at the FPF, I'm sure. Yes. Yeah. Speaking
of a little side story, I posted that I would
be there. And then I got a phone call saying
I wasn't allowed to use their logo when I was
telling everyone I was going to speak at their
conference. Which logo? The FPF? The FPF's logo.
And I was like, you understand how crazy that
sounds, right? That I'm traveling all this way
to speak about this thing for free down in West
Palm, and I can't use your Maltese cross with
FPF written on it. So to me, therein lies the
problem. I'm like, if that's your focus, then
maybe you need to take a step back and reevaluate
that because that's insane. I'm literally coming
to your conference. This is advertising for you.
Yeah, man. I love the FPF. I love Bernie and
Rocco and all those guys. I suspect that that
was a resolution at some conference about using
and exposing, you know, whatever. And it was
voted on by the masses, and that's just the rule.
I know Wayne Bernowska, Bernie, you know them,
Rocco, Salvatore. These guys would have no problem
with that. I mean, that's just my opinion. I
use the international logo on my posts because...
All the firefighters that I represent are members
of the international. And I'm a dues paying retiree.
I've never gotten any flack for that. But I'm
surprised by that. Yeah, it was a good example
of the ridiculousness of red tape. I think that's
all I'm highlighting that. Yeah, sure. All right.
Well, then you talked about an incentive, an
initiative that you have to help firefighters.
So let's unpack that a little bit. Yeah, you
know. I don't know. I've probably said this three
times since I got on the mic. I'm an old guy
now. I'm 61 years old, right? But I feel like
I'm 30. And I sat back, I don't know, a few months
ago and I thought, you know, I think I'm doing
good work. People tell me I'm doing good work.
I'm helping a lot of people. And it's Florida
specific, right? I'm licensed to practice in
Florida. But I'm partnered with this huge law
firm, the biggest one. Everyone knows about it.
And we have offices in every state in the nation.
So it struck me, how can I leave a legacy of
impacting people beyond the state of Florida?
Firefighters. Those are my people, right? And
I wondered, I can't be so limited to Florida
and at the same time be tied to this huge firm
that have offices in every state in the nation.
How can I touch firefighters who will trust me
to put them in the right hands if they need help?
And so it's still in that theory stage, this
idea. But I'm in the process now of developing
an app where people can... I can travel the country
and talk to the folks I know in different states
who are with the international and have an app
that their members can have on their phone, and
if they get hurt, touch it, make it as easy as
possible. I mean, almost just crazy easy. It
comes to me, I get them the help they need within
hours. Again, it's just an idea, but I think
the best way to do it, because I've spoken to...
the 12th DVP of the International, Walt Dix,
you probably know Walt, and some other district
vice presidents around the country, and they
love the idea and they want to help if they can.
So I just, you know, I told you before, I think
I got another 10 or 15 years, but, you know,
in the meantime, I want to help people beyond
Florida firefighters. And if I can do it in a
way that... It makes it easy for them, and they
can get help with great lawyers. I know some
of the best lawyers around. They're with this
firm. There's people knocking this firm down
to get in, and John only hires the best. So if
they can trust me to put them in the best hands,
that's a way that I can continue to provide help.
If there's any way at all, how can people listening
help with this movement? You know, that's a good
question. I think I'm going to have to visit.
State conferences, go to the International every
two years, go to the Redmond Symposium, go to
these things and shake hands with folks. I know
a smattering of folks that are with some big,
big locals. I know Nate Bailey in Atlanta and
some few other states out west who are high on
the idea. I think I just have to get around and
meet these people, give them information about
the app so that they can disseminate it to their
folks and convince them that. I don't care where
they are in the country. I can put them in the
hands of the best people to help them. I think
the app will be out in the next month or so.
I'm using, actually, the same folks that developed
the second alarm project. Oh, brilliant. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. I've been in touch with those guys.
So they're excited, and we'll put something together,
and I'll let you know. Yeah, please do. I actually
got Kelly O'Dea coming on, I think, next week.
Oh, great. Yeah, and then, which is interesting,
she's got her, and then there's a gentleman,
Keith from FSU, are studying Gainesville and
Destin. They both went to 2472 already. So they've
got baseline testing and we're going to be seeing
the physiological results. Now, again, you don't
have to be genius to understand that, of course,
it's going to be better. But the people that
say they want to see a data, all right, there's
your data. You know, I was going to pose that
question to you. Those departments who have gone
and the trend is up, thank God, including Destin
and Gainesville and these other folks. I say
we, I just say that collectively because I'm
in the fire service background. Are we tracking
any difference between the old schedule and the
new schedule so that we can help other departments?
Yeah, I think that's what's happening with FSU.
I mean, if you've got Hugh Bruder and out Boynton
Beach, I'm sure they can now, it's been about
two years, I'm sure they can start looking at
some of the financial side as well. But I mean,
it's just, you know, really, if you put it on
paper, I mean, it's... So the trend obviously
would be down in terms of people affected by
mental health with better schedule. Yeah, sleep
and everything. Even relationships. I mean, you
know, mom and dad are going to be home when they're
supposed to be home. You know, so the mandatory
overtime all but goes away unless there's a hurricane
or COVID or something. And yeah, my friend Matt
from Gainesville, I hit him up. I was like, so...
What do you think? He said, James, I would never
go back to the old schedule. And yet I have people
that don't understand this that go, Oh, I want
to do the 4896. It's like, you just, just go
and listen to the people that have gone to this,
you know, and then what they did to fight for
it and where the money was already and all this
stuff. And I won't go down that rabbit hole,
but yeah, it's really. brilliant to hear. And
then there's, there's a Florida department that
I'm super excited for in our area that is hopefully
going to go very soon. There's a Texas department
that's about to go. So it's, I mean, it's happening.
So every single department, you start chipping
away at that, you know, facade of it will never
happen. Like you said, you know, the, the, the
fiscal year chief or union leader or whoever
it is, that's the barrier to entry. And people
are like, well, wait a second, if Pasco could
go to it, if Palm Beach could go to it, why can't
we go to it? So that's what I'm hoping will happen
next. And again, that all filters into all the
things we've discussed today. Is there any common
denominator about how those particular departments
became? good with the idea, how they were impacted?
Was it just they had the right politics at the
commission level? Relationships. Yeah, that was
it. If you don't have this head -knocking...
I mean, the perfect example, Orange County, Orlando.
When I was there, they didn't play well together.
Ocala and Marion County don't play well together,
and that just disgusts me. You're a bunch of
grown -ups that are supposed to be serving your
community, and one of you thinks that you're
better than the other, for the love of God. The
Pascos and, you know, the Boyntons and all these
other places that have made it happen. Some of
them, the one that's going to happen soon, I
believe it was the city that came to the fire
department and said, what about this? Which is
amazing. But having that relationship and these
unions and chiefs and admins and, you know, cities
and counties all talking in a room and saying,
well. They're listening and then go, well, that
actually makes a lot of sense. That's the difference.
It's having the humility, dropping the egos.
Of course, that's it. And then looking at the
money too. If you weren't going to save money,
then this would be a hard sell. But realizing
how you're struggling to recruit and how you're
bleeding over time, which is killing your people.
This is, you know, it's not the magic bullet,
but my God, it's a pretty damn powerful one.
It's about getting them to listen. Just come
in the room and listen. Just have a discussion.
And that could be said for... national politics,
but I won't bore you with that. I mean, the middle...
of politics has evaporated. Everybody's in their
corner. It's awful. I honestly think there's
going to be a revolution in the middle. I really
do. I was thinking the other day, if you've ever
done pottery, the spinning wheel, the pottery
wheel, if the clay is off kilter, it just spins
and flies into the corner. I feel like that's
what's happening with the extremism now. I think
we're watching the wheels just come off and the
people in the middle, I think they're going to
rise up. And I truly believe that there's going
to be a kind of community of... Kindness, compassion,
the normal people in the middle again. From your
mouth to God's ears. One more thing before we
close out, because it kind of ties everything
in together. Along with my vision, which is already
happening, this revolution of 24 -72, I think
that there needs to then be a fitness standard
put in. Now, you're sitting across from me at
61 years old. One of the places that you find
peace is the gym. What is your impression of
fitness standards in the fire service? Of course,
we both know that would positively impact the
heart and lung bill, the cancer bill, the mental
health bill. But as someone who rose through
the ranks and now has been fighting for the first
responders and seeing the downstream effects
of ill health, talk to me about the... the need
or or or if you think that they shouldn't be
of fitness standards at the front door continue
through to when we retire i think the masses
are about 50 50 james and i i i was The fitness
instructor in Longwood. It's such a silly moniker,
but that's what it was. They said, oh, Mike Cleland,
you like to work out, so you're going to run
these guys through a monthly test. And I looked
to the military to get their test. I didn't want
to be too, you know. iron -fisted, but we put
together something. Everybody bought in. There
was a little bit of a cardio involved. There
was some strength testing. There was some mobility
and stretching and things like that. And everybody
bought in. But there were always resistors, and
there always will be. My take on it now looking
at 2025 is you see the Jason Wheats of the world.
These guys are amazing, and they're relentless
and just... I applaud them. They're just doing
yeoman's work. I don't know. I've been out of
the service for so long. I don't know on the
inside what that ratio is like. the resistors
to those who buy in. The key, I think, is to
get a Jason Wheaton in front of you and just
say, look, here's the way it should be and ease
into it. And then as it's shown to be not so
oppressive, and I'm thinking in the mind of a
resistor, that eventually you can get some buy
-in. Or you make it mandatory. But then you get
the guys negotiating at the table, the same 50
% that are saying, F you, I'm not doing that.
I'm coming to work, doing my job, I'm going home.
Prove to me I'm not capable. I pass the, you
know, whatever, the fit for duty every year or
every two years. So then now the union guys conflicted
about putting something in the contract that
requires a certain amount of time to do X, Y,
and Z. I don't know how you get everybody to
buy in. But it was hot back in the 80s and 90s
to get everybody to buy in, and I'm sure it's
the same now. But I do, looking from the outside,
I see that it's a bigger... I think more people
are buying in. I mean, look at First Response
Training Group with Jay. Those guys are, like,
militaristic. I mean, I see them training just...
This is fire standards. And these guys are fit,
you know? Everything you said makes sense in
terms of the... The consequences of not being
fit. But getting someone to remain in good physical
and mental health is a completely different story.
Why? Because these guys are going home for two
or three days and they're living their lives
the way they want to live them. My brother Steve,
30 -year guy, not in the best of shape, lives
like Ernest Hemingway. That school of thought
is, you know. Fuck it. I'm living life the way
I want to live my life. I have one life and I'm
still able to do that job. He did it for 30 years.
He was on Tower One. At the same time, you know,
my school of thought is, dude, you're 62, 63.
You got to, you know, not live like Hemingway
and get in shape and sleep well and all of these
things. I don't know how to convince the majority.
What's interesting, and I've said this so many
times on here, is if you think about the front
door of the Florida Fire Service, everything
is set up for a bar to be maintained. We literally
call our certification minimum standards. That's
it. It's labeled. This is the shittest you should
ever be the rest of your career. And so we have
the opportunity to be like, oh, we just need
you to do what you could do in the academy. Oh,
that's not fair. What do you mean it's not fair?
It's literally the thing that you had to meet
to get the piece of paper that allows you to
do this. And what's really interesting in profession
that I contrast, which is the other, one of the
other jobs that I did, even though I was never
working on the ocean, but you listen to the ocean
lifeguards, they re -qualify. I just had a Hawaii
one every six months, this one. And the one I
did, I think it was, I mean, we did swim tests
all the time. I think it was every year or two
years we re -qual, but regardless, say it's two
years, worst case. If James Gearing can't do
the swim tests and the toes and the dummy retrievals,
then I'm not a lifeguard anymore. And that's
where I think the bar should be. should be held
it's like you cannot complain that a fitness
test is unfair when you knew exactly what to
expect when you went through the fire academy
i don't remember any lazy boys and you know jerry
springer marathon sessions in the the fire academy
but like you said don't go extreme and be like
you gotta do a 500 pound deadlift and a two meter
vertical leap and of course but you know whether
it's rick seagrass you know fire sled version
of the c -pad whether it's the c -pad There's
nothing unfair about a CPAT. And I'm sorry, but
anyone in the fire service should be able to
do a CPAT in less than 10 minutes and 19 seconds.
I did it at 47 years old a few years ago to get
ready for Gainesville when I thought the money
was going around for the podcast. And it was
720. So that's three minutes over an old guy
that you've got to get done. So I don't want
to hear about it's not fair. So this is, I think,
where we've got to really, you know, grow a set
is at the front door, make it mandatory. And
then for all our men and women, of course, don't
just implement it and say by tomorrow, you've
got to be able to meet the standard. There's
got to be an on -ramp session. But at what point
do you draw a line in the sand and go, look,
you either can or you can't. If a child dies
because you tapped out on the third floor and
we're worried about hurting your feelings, then
you're in the wrong job. It's that simple. So
I think we've really got to kind of be a little
courageous in the fitness standard conversation.
Agreed. It's the approach, too. You don't want
to scare these guys into thinking, you know,
who are you? Especially if you're in a department
of, you know, 150 guys. 40 of them are on their
way out in two years. They're just going to sit
back and say, here you go, whatever, whatever.
It's going to be like water off a duck's back.
Convincing the younger generation, I think, is
key. When I went and taught Hartlong at First
Response, just a full classroom of kids. And
I think if we can get them young, like Jason
and those guys are doing out there, more broadly.
And I think fitness is bigger now. I think the
younger generation are conscious of fitness.
That's just my take. People have told me the
fit firefighter is the fit. Military recruits
are fitter than they've ever been. Now, we've
got a large portion that aren't, but of the people
that step up and toe the line, they're seeing
a lot of the fit ones are in incredible shape,
which is amazing. Yeah, and that's good news.
And then us old folks will fall off the back
end, and then maybe it'll be a generational thing,
and maybe firefighters just as a rule will become
more fit just because of society. You know what
I mean? Social media and stuff, everybody's on
there with... I mean, my son, all his friends
are all fit and in the gym and taking pictures
of themselves. And it's silly. But if that's
the generation coming through to go into the
fire service, then that's a good thing. Because
now they're more conscious of how healthy they
are. Absolutely. I think with the argument with
the people deeper into their careers, like, look.
when you when you're done don't you want to be
in the best shape so that you can prolong your
retirement like on average we die it seems to
be a nationally accepted standard of five years
and no one's done a study yet but all over the
country people say the same thing so it's obviously
an observational you know number so even though
you've got two years left you may not get to
the point of your 30 -year -old self, but let's
get you back to where your body composition is
better and your cardiovascular system is better
and your mental health is better before you make,
as we said, that jarring transition and you leave
your tribe and now you're in Kentucky somewhere
and questioning what you're going to do next.
Yeah, I see these retiree groups on Facebook.
You see the same ones, I'm sure. And I see them
at their luncheons, and I tell you, I'm almost
as old as that group. And I don't know. I shake
my head, man. And God love them. They did their
job, and they're living their lives with their
families. But it boggles my mind. But it's that
culture. 30 years from now, what will that group
look like? Hopefully, you know. they'll be transitioning
to another career and they'll still be in great
shape and their mental health will be intact.
So this is the thing. I've said this many times.
We stand on the shoulders of giants. Your generation
and prior to that, whether it's SCBAs or EZIOs
or whatever it is, there's so many pioneers on
the operational side. But most of those innovations
have already happened. There's only so many ways
you can reimagine a halogen or a nozzle or a
ladder. Where we can be pioneers now is to change
the human and not only address the ill health,
but actually then transition into performance.
How can that firefighter make it up that set
of stairs and still have a lower heart rate?
And, you know, their breath work has now got
them consuming less of the bottom. Now they're
in the ability to really focus. So this is to
me, you know, what we can do for the next generation
is not invent a new mask or air pack, but. address
all the things from the work week to the fitness
standards to the mental health outlets so that
this next generation can maintain a health in
you know in a way that we've never seen in our
profession before yeah so with that being said
then before we close out is there anything else
you want to say as no look i just if if someone
needs help Use my cell phone. A lot of people
call the firm, the big number, and by the time
it gets to me, it's a little maddening. But I'll
go back to that night in property class. I want
people to be able to get a hold of me. So my
cell is 407 -375 -8887. You can call me around
the clock. And I appreciate you having me back.