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As a strength and conditioning coach 00:01:54.010 --> 00:01:58.109 myself who also trains tactical athletes, dissemination 00:01:58.109 --> 00:02:00.409 of wellness information is one of the biggest 00:02:00.409 --> 00:02:03.670 challenges. Now TeamBuildr is the premier strength 00:02:03.670 --> 00:02:06.209 and conditioning software for tactical athletes, 00:02:06.430 --> 00:02:08.909 and there are several features that really impress 00:02:08.909 --> 00:02:12.490 me. Firstly, there is a full exercise library, 00:02:12.629 --> 00:02:14.930 so you, the personal trainer, does not have to 00:02:14.930 --> 00:02:18.129 create that within your own department. Secondly, 00:02:18.270 --> 00:02:21.590 you can send out programming, but also individualize, 00:02:21.650 --> 00:02:24.430 which I love. So you blanket program for everyone. 00:02:24.590 --> 00:02:27.370 Now you can tweak based on someone's injury, 00:02:27.569 --> 00:02:30.050 someone's need to maybe drop some body composition, 00:02:30.090 --> 00:02:33.009 rather than having to write a program for every 00:02:33.009 --> 00:02:35.780 single person on their own. TeamBuildr also 00:02:35.780 --> 00:02:38.259 allows you to build custom questionnaires to 00:02:38.259 --> 00:02:41.300 collate health and wellness data. It integrates 00:02:41.300 --> 00:02:43.860 with wearables. And I think one of the most important 00:02:43.860 --> 00:02:47.659 things is obviously it tracks. To me, it's imperative 00:02:47.659 --> 00:02:51.120 that we as a profession start tracking our people 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:55.020 from day one and then over the full span of their 00:02:55.020 --> 00:02:58.240 career, therefore catching potential wellness 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:01.780 issues and injuries before they happen. Now, 00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:04.000 if you want to try Team Buildr, they are offering 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:06.340 you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast, 00:03:06.759 --> 00:03:10.939 a free 14 -day trial to experience all of the 00:03:10.939 --> 00:03:13.479 features. And if you want to take a deeper dive 00:03:13.479 --> 00:03:18.020 into TeamBuildr, listen to episode 1032 with 00:03:18.020 --> 00:03:22.039 Melissa Mercado or go to teambuilder .com. And 00:03:22.039 --> 00:03:23.560 I'll spell that to you because it's not as you 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:30.069 think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome 00:03:30.069 --> 00:03:31.810 to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, 00:03:31.830 --> 00:03:33.669 my name is James Gearing and this week it is 00:03:33.669 --> 00:03:36.830 my absolute honor to welcome on the show veteran 00:03:36.830 --> 00:03:40.050 nurse and the woman behind the Conversing Nurse 00:03:40.050 --> 00:03:44.490 podcast, Michelle Harris. Now in this conversation, 00:03:44.530 --> 00:03:47.689 we discuss a host of topics from her journey 00:03:47.689 --> 00:03:52.150 into the world of nursing, pediatrics, neonatal 00:03:52.150 --> 00:03:56.870 nursing, infant mortality, mental health in her 00:03:56.870 --> 00:04:00.389 profession, and so much more. Now, before we 00:04:00.389 --> 00:04:02.669 get to this incredible conversation, as I say 00:04:02.669 --> 00:04:05.889 every week, please just take a moment, go to 00:04:05.889 --> 00:04:08.370 whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe 00:04:08.370 --> 00:04:12.090 to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating. 00:04:12.889 --> 00:04:16.069 Every single five -star rating truly does elevate 00:04:16.069 --> 00:04:18.829 this podcast, therefore making it easier for 00:04:18.829 --> 00:04:22.689 others to find. And this is a free library of 00:04:22.689 --> 00:04:27.829 almost 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in return 00:04:27.829 --> 00:04:31.230 is that you help share these incredible men and 00:04:31.230 --> 00:04:34.490 women's stories so I can get them to every single 00:04:34.490 --> 00:04:37.370 person on planet Earth who needs to hear them. 00:04:37.569 --> 00:04:40.649 So with that being said, I introduce to you, 00:04:40.870 --> 00:05:04.170 Michelle. Harris. Enjoy. Well, Michelle, I want 00:05:04.170 --> 00:05:06.980 to start by saying Two things. I think it might 00:05:06.980 --> 00:05:09.279 have been Didi Finder that kind of brought us 00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:11.600 two together. So I want to thank him for that. 00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:13.980 And secondly, I want to welcome you onto the 00:05:13.980 --> 00:05:17.300 Behind the Shield podcast today. Thank you, James. 00:05:17.459 --> 00:05:21.660 It's a thrill and an honor to be here. I appreciate 00:05:21.660 --> 00:05:25.420 you having me on. And yes, Didi Finder is an 00:05:25.420 --> 00:05:30.699 awesome individual and introduced us. Brilliant. 00:05:30.740 --> 00:05:32.560 So where on planet Earth are we finding you this 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:38.660 afternoon? So I'm in central California, a town 00:05:38.660 --> 00:05:43.560 called Visalia, and we have about 160 ,000 residents 00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:47.339 here. It's an agricultural community. So we're 00:05:47.339 --> 00:05:53.480 surrounded by fruit trees and nuts and dairies 00:05:53.480 --> 00:05:59.399 and cattle, all kinds of things. We are very 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:03.240 central to everything, as I said. The Pacific 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:07.139 Ocean, we're about three hours away. Los Angeles, 00:06:07.339 --> 00:06:11.060 the same. San Francisco, the same. Yosemite, 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:14.060 a couple hours. The Sequoias, a couple hours. 00:06:14.939 --> 00:06:19.220 So it's just the sweet spot of California, I 00:06:19.220 --> 00:06:24.360 think. Are you near Kings County? Yes. So Kings 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:30.560 County is just about 20 miles to the west of 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:34.050 us. I think I was literally just where you live. 00:06:34.189 --> 00:06:36.389 A few weeks ago, I went to help a friend who's 00:06:36.389 --> 00:06:39.569 temporarily the Kings County Fire Chief. And 00:06:39.569 --> 00:06:42.930 we had a conference in one of the Indian Reservation 00:06:42.930 --> 00:06:45.949 casinos that's right in your area. Yep. It was 00:06:45.949 --> 00:06:49.389 probably in Lemoore, California. Yeah. So, yeah, 00:06:49.509 --> 00:06:51.250 I literally know what you're talking about. And 00:06:51.250 --> 00:06:53.290 it was beautiful. Oh, my gosh, James. I wish 00:06:53.290 --> 00:06:55.949 I knew you were here. I would have driven over 00:06:55.949 --> 00:07:01.980 to see you. It was a whirlwind visit. Yeah. Okay, 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:04.000 so I would love to start at the very beginning 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:07.019 of your timeline. So tell me where you were born 00:07:07.019 --> 00:07:08.920 and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, 00:07:09.139 --> 00:07:13.420 what your parents did, how many siblings. I was 00:07:13.420 --> 00:07:18.060 born in Reno, Nevada, and then we moved here 00:07:18.060 --> 00:07:22.240 when I was five. So I've lived in Visalia for 00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:30.259 56 years, if I do the math. I am the third child 00:07:30.259 --> 00:07:35.920 of eight children in our family. And I always 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:40.779 say number three is the place to be. Our family 00:07:40.779 --> 00:07:46.180 dynamic, very interesting. So my father was a 00:07:46.180 --> 00:07:49.779 salesman repairman for National Cash Register 00:07:49.779 --> 00:07:54.839 Company. And I can't believe that he made a lot 00:07:54.839 --> 00:07:59.449 of money. but we never seemed to lack anything. 00:07:59.910 --> 00:08:02.730 You know, we had our three meals a day. We had 00:08:02.730 --> 00:08:06.889 our little tract house here in Visalia. We had 00:08:06.889 --> 00:08:13.670 a swimming pool. And then I had my seven siblings. 00:08:13.930 --> 00:08:20.550 So five brothers and two sisters. That's a lot 00:08:20.550 --> 00:08:24.069 of math to do. Was your mom a stay -at -home 00:08:24.069 --> 00:08:26.949 mom with that many children? My mom was a stay 00:08:26.949 --> 00:08:31.930 -at -home mom, yes. It'd be interesting to hear 00:08:31.930 --> 00:08:36.190 your dad's take on the trajectory of his profession, 00:08:36.370 --> 00:08:38.809 because here we are now, and certainly after 00:08:38.809 --> 00:08:41.190 COVID, cash is almost like a dirty thing these 00:08:41.190 --> 00:08:42.950 days, but that was his bread and butter back 00:08:42.950 --> 00:08:48.090 then. Yes, this was obviously long before days 00:08:48.090 --> 00:08:54.190 of any kind of technology. And my dad, my dad... 00:08:54.570 --> 00:09:00.929 let's see trying to unpack my dad here um so 00:09:00.929 --> 00:09:04.470 my dad was in he was a survival instructor in 00:09:04.470 --> 00:09:08.370 the air force before he met my mom and they met 00:09:08.370 --> 00:09:13.710 in reno at stead air force base and my dad came 00:09:13.710 --> 00:09:16.330 from the background he grew up in oklahoma very 00:09:16.330 --> 00:09:22.370 poor not great parenting he was the child of 00:09:22.370 --> 00:09:27.590 a single mother And so his life was pretty rough. 00:09:29.649 --> 00:09:34.509 And then he met my mom and my mom came from a 00:09:34.509 --> 00:09:39.009 family of, she had one sibling and her parents 00:09:39.009 --> 00:09:41.690 were both educators. So they were both masters 00:09:41.690 --> 00:09:44.730 prepared. So a little bit different. My dad always 00:09:44.730 --> 00:09:46.970 teased her that she grew up with a silver spoon 00:09:46.970 --> 00:09:50.669 in her mouth. And she kind of did a little bit, 00:09:50.710 --> 00:09:55.679 but her family dynamic was really. crazy too 00:09:55.679 --> 00:09:59.620 because her parents would do things like just 00:09:59.620 --> 00:10:02.960 speak to each other in French and not speak to 00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:06.639 my mom and then she lost her brother when he 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:09.659 was a senior in high school and my mom was a 00:10:09.659 --> 00:10:11.639 sophomore so that was completely devastating 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:16.080 and the way that her parents kind of processed 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:19.399 that was the day after he died they removed everything 00:10:19.399 --> 00:10:24.529 from the house that had any a remembrance of 00:10:24.529 --> 00:10:27.330 him. So everything came off the walls, everything 00:10:27.330 --> 00:10:29.769 came out of his room, and it was like he never 00:10:29.769 --> 00:10:33.210 existed. And my mom is 85 and she still talks 00:10:33.210 --> 00:10:37.129 about that to this day and is actually in grief 00:10:37.129 --> 00:10:41.590 counseling, which I applaud her for. After 70 00:10:41.590 --> 00:10:44.370 years of losing her brother, she finally decided 00:10:44.370 --> 00:10:48.350 to get some help for herself. So these are two 00:10:48.350 --> 00:10:51.169 imperfect people meeting and then deciding to 00:10:51.169 --> 00:10:53.789 have a family and bring eight kids into the world. 00:10:54.169 --> 00:10:58.070 My father was a good man with a bad disease of 00:10:58.070 --> 00:11:04.289 alcoholism. And subsequently, I lost one of my 00:11:04.289 --> 00:11:08.149 brothers to alcoholism and another brother is 00:11:08.149 --> 00:11:12.629 permanently disabled because of alcoholism. So 00:11:12.629 --> 00:11:16.919 those kinds of things have have, you know. obviously 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:20.159 affected our our entire family dynamic growing 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:26.340 up it was a little bit chaotic i always kind 00:11:26.340 --> 00:11:29.139 of joke around because my younger sisters one 00:11:29.139 --> 00:11:31.139 of them is 11 years younger than me and the other 00:11:31.139 --> 00:11:34.919 one is 15 years younger than me they had a different 00:11:34.919 --> 00:11:37.960 experience with my parents because my my dad 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:43.700 was sober at that time and my mom was less of 00:11:43.700 --> 00:11:46.870 a codependent And so things were better for them 00:11:46.870 --> 00:11:51.850 than they were for the first six of us. It's 00:11:51.850 --> 00:11:54.409 interesting because I think we talked about my 00:11:54.409 --> 00:11:56.350 book briefly as well. Like this is the whole 00:11:56.350 --> 00:11:58.750 point of telling this multi -generational trauma 00:11:58.750 --> 00:12:02.690 story. We recently have talked about our parents 00:12:02.690 --> 00:12:04.769 and how did you grow up, but then you unpack 00:12:04.769 --> 00:12:07.149 their childhood and then their grandparents' 00:12:07.450 --> 00:12:09.950 childhood, and you see these dominoes falling. 00:12:10.330 --> 00:12:13.269 So going to your mom for a moment, I think that's 00:12:13.269 --> 00:12:16.970 so admirable that someone who's deeper into their 00:12:16.970 --> 00:12:21.870 lifespan has the humility to say, I think I'm 00:12:21.870 --> 00:12:23.950 going to work on myself. That is incredible. 00:12:24.149 --> 00:12:26.850 So what was that turning point for her after, 00:12:26.929 --> 00:12:29.759 you know? decades and decades of trauma herself 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:33.840 i think she's just coming to the end of her life 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:38.179 and i i mean i asked her you know why now like 00:12:38.179 --> 00:12:41.580 first of all i said bravo and then i said what 00:12:41.580 --> 00:12:43.919 was your motivation of why you're doing this 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:47.379 now kind of exactly what you asked and she said 00:12:47.379 --> 00:12:50.960 you know i just didn't want to die without having 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:57.120 visited this how his death impacted my life my 00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:01.720 entire life and again for my mom to say that 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:07.320 because my mom has really strong defense mechanisms 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:13.059 up and uh kind of like you know i'm never wrong 00:13:13.059 --> 00:13:19.559 doesn't often apologize for things that you know 00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:24.049 were in her realm to apologize for so just to 00:13:24.049 --> 00:13:27.929 see it it's kind of amazing and uh and inspiring 00:13:27.929 --> 00:13:30.629 and it just goes to show that it's never too 00:13:30.629 --> 00:13:33.850 late to get help for yourself if if that's what 00:13:33.850 --> 00:13:38.850 you want absolutely well let's talk about your 00:13:38.850 --> 00:13:41.049 kind of career ambitions when you were in the 00:13:41.049 --> 00:13:43.570 school age were you already dreaming of the medical 00:13:43.570 --> 00:13:45.190 profession or was there something else in mind 00:13:45.190 --> 00:13:50.610 i was not dreaming of it um i will say that my 00:13:50.610 --> 00:13:54.460 mother was in nursing school And she had made 00:13:54.460 --> 00:13:56.740 it halfway through nursing school when she met 00:13:56.740 --> 00:13:59.639 my father. And so this is in the late 1950s. 00:13:59.960 --> 00:14:03.740 And you could not be in nursing school and simultaneously 00:14:03.740 --> 00:14:09.039 be married, which I think is just so crazy. So 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:11.620 she met my dad and it was kind of this whirlwind 00:14:11.620 --> 00:14:15.360 thing and they wanted to get married. And so 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:18.940 she dropped out of nursing school. And of course, 00:14:18.940 --> 00:14:22.789 I grew up with this story. But it still never 00:14:22.789 --> 00:14:27.730 made me want to be a nurse. I think the first 00:14:27.730 --> 00:14:32.110 inkling of wanting to be a nurse is, well, I'll 00:14:32.110 --> 00:14:36.389 say the first inkling was really when I was seven 00:14:36.389 --> 00:14:41.649 years old. So my father, as I said, was a salesman 00:14:41.649 --> 00:14:45.149 and a repairman. And this was Christmas Eve. 00:14:47.460 --> 00:14:49.840 He said, hey, we need to go down to the office. 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:52.820 Do you want to go with me? Which was very unusual 00:14:52.820 --> 00:14:57.200 because with all these kids, you know, it was 00:14:57.200 --> 00:14:59.740 usually going to be a thing where everyone jumped 00:14:59.740 --> 00:15:02.139 in the car and went down with dad. But he asked 00:15:02.139 --> 00:15:05.279 me, you know, do you want to come down to the 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:08.139 office with me? I have to do something. And, 00:15:08.139 --> 00:15:13.080 you know, I said, yeah, sure. So on our way, 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:17.179 we passed by this man that was laying. pretty 00:15:17.179 --> 00:15:22.519 much in the gutter and my dad said look at that 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:28.340 bum it's christmas eve and he has no one he's 00:15:28.340 --> 00:15:34.139 laying in the gutter alone and i just remember 00:15:34.139 --> 00:15:40.159 at that point so strongly feeling such a deep 00:15:40.919 --> 00:15:44.700 like hurt for that man that he had nobody. And 00:15:44.700 --> 00:15:46.720 it was Christmas Eve. And as you can imagine, 00:15:46.740 --> 00:15:49.740 a seven -year -old on Christmas Eve that has 00:15:49.740 --> 00:15:54.080 been waiting all year for Santa to come and the 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:57.200 excitement and, you know, all my brothers and 00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:00.940 sisters, you know, we were just beyond excited 00:16:00.940 --> 00:16:07.620 and it was just a crushing reality. And this 00:16:07.620 --> 00:16:11.320 man was probably homeless although we didn't 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.940 have a term for it at that time or unhoused the 00:16:14.940 --> 00:16:20.059 term was kind of like a bum you know and so that 00:16:20.059 --> 00:16:23.519 I think what that instilled in me was just a 00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:29.059 compassion for another human being so the the 00:16:29.059 --> 00:16:34.320 second pivotal decision really was as a young 00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:38.360 teenager When I was a preteen, my grandfather 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:42.519 had a massive stroke and they lived just about 00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:46.200 two blocks from us. And so my brothers, my two 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:53.240 older brothers, were really tasked with helping 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:55.919 care for him because my grandparents had promised 00:16:55.919 --> 00:16:58.100 each other, you know, we're not going to put 00:16:58.100 --> 00:17:01.019 each other in a nursing home. So he stayed at 00:17:01.019 --> 00:17:04.500 home and my brothers got up every day before 00:17:04.500 --> 00:17:09.140 school. and went to care for him they turned 00:17:09.140 --> 00:17:15.279 him they cleaned him they you know they changed 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:19.819 his catheter they did all of these tasks when 00:17:19.819 --> 00:17:22.220 you care for someone they fed him they got him 00:17:22.220 --> 00:17:26.779 up in the wheelchair and i saw that every day 00:17:26.779 --> 00:17:35.539 and you know boys that are 15 16 years old This 00:17:35.539 --> 00:17:39.019 isn't something that I think is normal. You know, 00:17:39.019 --> 00:17:43.180 they're usually going to school and, you know, 00:17:43.180 --> 00:17:46.660 roughhousing and I don't know, partying maybe. 00:17:47.059 --> 00:17:50.940 But they were caring for my grandfather. And 00:17:50.940 --> 00:17:55.299 then they when they graduated high school, they 00:17:55.299 --> 00:18:00.819 became nurses. And so they were really the inspiration 00:18:00.819 --> 00:18:04.670 for me to become a nurse. mainly because we got 00:18:04.670 --> 00:18:06.970 to hear all their stories so they would come 00:18:06.970 --> 00:18:10.410 home and they were still living at home at that 00:18:10.410 --> 00:18:15.769 time and just tell stories around the dinner 00:18:15.769 --> 00:18:18.990 table of you know patients that they took care 00:18:18.990 --> 00:18:21.809 of they were both working in the operating room 00:18:21.809 --> 00:18:26.210 and just the surgeries and the surgeons and all 00:18:26.210 --> 00:18:28.349 the interpersonal relationships and it seemed 00:18:28.349 --> 00:18:33.220 really exciting and I was like, yeah, that's 00:18:33.220 --> 00:18:37.160 the life for me. Well, going back to the seven 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:39.579 -year -old you, it's interesting because if you 00:18:39.579 --> 00:18:41.880 take that scenario, which we see to this day, 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:44.960 and I hate the word bum. I mean, I've said it 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:47.380 many, many times in my books and on here. I can't 00:18:47.380 --> 00:18:49.880 stand that word. But really, you've got a hurt 00:18:49.880 --> 00:18:53.819 person looking down at another hurt person. And 00:18:53.819 --> 00:18:56.140 this is the issue that we have, the empaths, 00:18:56.140 --> 00:18:58.099 the people with compassion look at those people 00:18:58.099 --> 00:18:59.779 and go, God, that's someone that needs help. 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:07.500 But the nastiness or the shallow lack of compassion 00:19:07.500 --> 00:19:09.940 usually is coming from a person who's struggling 00:19:09.940 --> 00:19:12.200 themselves. So they're not able to really kind 00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:13.819 of connect with that person, I think, because 00:19:13.819 --> 00:19:17.059 they see a mirror in some respects. So it's interesting 00:19:17.059 --> 00:19:19.960 now where I think people are finally starting 00:19:19.960 --> 00:19:22.480 to really allow that conversation to happen. 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:25.799 And empathy and compassion is now viewed as a 00:19:25.799 --> 00:19:28.740 strength, whereas for the longest time, as a 00:19:28.740 --> 00:19:32.180 man, this kind of, oh, just judge everyone else 00:19:32.180 --> 00:19:37.380 because you're in your ivory tower. So you get 00:19:37.380 --> 00:19:39.380 to point fingers at everyone else rather than 00:19:39.380 --> 00:19:42.019 this courageous vulnerability that we're seeing 00:19:42.019 --> 00:19:44.519 now where people are like, no, I'm broken, in 00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:48.619 an infallible way, not in a... I'm beyond help, 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:52.039 but I am imperfect myself. So let me work on 00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:54.680 myself and let me help raise other people up. 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:57.319 So a lot of that nastiness that we're trying 00:19:57.319 --> 00:20:02.339 to dismantle now comes from hurt people judging 00:20:02.339 --> 00:20:06.440 other hurt people. Absolutely. I've heard you 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:09.240 say that before, you know, hurt people hurt people. 00:20:09.660 --> 00:20:15.450 And looking back. thinking what was in my dad's 00:20:15.450 --> 00:20:17.529 head when he said that and he called that guy 00:20:17.529 --> 00:20:22.950 a bum you know my dad was uh an alcoholic at 00:20:22.950 --> 00:20:26.029 that time and and it was almost like a message 00:20:26.029 --> 00:20:31.210 like don't don't be like a message to himself 00:20:31.210 --> 00:20:35.529 almost like don't don't get there Don't be laying 00:20:35.529 --> 00:20:37.950 down in the gutter. You don't want that to happen. 00:20:38.150 --> 00:20:41.670 And towards the end of my dad's disease, before 00:20:41.670 --> 00:20:45.309 he got sober, that's exactly where he was. And 00:20:45.309 --> 00:20:49.230 it was extremely embarrassing. I remember my 00:20:49.230 --> 00:20:52.609 older brothers getting a call from the owners 00:20:52.609 --> 00:20:57.569 of a grocery store that was about a mile around 00:20:57.569 --> 00:21:01.549 the corner from us. And my dad had drank so much 00:21:01.549 --> 00:21:05.609 that he was... laying down in the gutter and 00:21:05.609 --> 00:21:08.369 these people knew us and they said hey you need 00:21:08.369 --> 00:21:11.210 to come and get your dad and you know my brother 00:21:11.210 --> 00:21:14.809 still talks about it to this day of how humiliating 00:21:14.809 --> 00:21:18.549 that was to have to drive over and put his you 00:21:18.549 --> 00:21:25.269 know inebriated dad in the car and um and then 00:21:25.269 --> 00:21:28.369 after that you know my dad got sober thankfully 00:21:28.369 --> 00:21:31.680 and what was the turning point for him Because, 00:21:31.700 --> 00:21:33.660 I mean, I've got a friend at the moment, a childhood 00:21:33.660 --> 00:21:36.039 friend that's struggling and he's been, you know, 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:38.500 had amazing success in certain addiction programs 00:21:38.500 --> 00:21:41.339 and then just fallen off over and over and over 00:21:41.339 --> 00:21:43.799 again. And he's just so full of guilt and shame. 00:21:43.859 --> 00:21:45.900 But this is a guy who's trying to claw his way 00:21:45.900 --> 00:21:48.380 out. But this disease just keeps dragging him 00:21:48.380 --> 00:21:52.380 back into the pit. Yeah, I think there was a 00:21:52.380 --> 00:21:54.859 conversation between my brothers and my dad where 00:21:54.859 --> 00:21:59.380 my brothers were like, wow, this is really affecting. 00:22:00.220 --> 00:22:02.940 us because people while you're in it they're 00:22:02.940 --> 00:22:05.319 not talking about how it's really affecting you 00:22:05.319 --> 00:22:09.079 and um and they were pretty much adults at that 00:22:09.079 --> 00:22:15.279 time uh they were late teens 18 19 and they said 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:19.960 wow you know this is really distressing and we 00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:21.880 don't want this to happen again don't let it 00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:25.079 happen again so my dad started going to alcoholics 00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:30.980 anonymous and for him it worked And, you know, 00:22:30.980 --> 00:22:33.980 to the day he died, he was sober for 30 something 00:22:33.980 --> 00:22:36.640 years after he passed away. I mean, before he 00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:39.700 passed away. I guess after he passed away, he 00:22:39.700 --> 00:22:42.720 was sober too, right? I was thinking that I wasn't 00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:47.640 going to say it. But yeah, he maintained his 00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:52.119 sobriety through AA. And I know for many people, 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:56.230 AA works. my brother who was permanently disabled 00:22:56.230 --> 00:23:02.029 has been in aa for many years and has still continued 00:23:02.029 --> 00:23:08.289 to drink so for him it's not working so yeah 00:23:08.289 --> 00:23:11.970 it's a it's a tricky thing alcoholism and what 00:23:11.970 --> 00:23:14.430 you want to do is break the cycle right you don't 00:23:14.430 --> 00:23:18.829 want uh your kids you know growing up to be alcoholics 00:23:18.829 --> 00:23:23.740 and I think that's what we're all striving for 00:23:23.740 --> 00:23:28.940 is to stop this generational disease. Absolutely. 00:23:29.380 --> 00:23:32.240 Well, you mentioned the compassion and empathy 00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:34.539 that you witnessed in your brothers. And correct 00:23:34.539 --> 00:23:36.660 me if I'm wrong, were they kind of early in the 00:23:36.660 --> 00:23:39.200 male nurse movement too? Because that seems like, 00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:40.940 you know, that's something that wasn't seen as 00:23:40.940 --> 00:23:45.619 much back then. Absolutely. In my brother Chris's 00:23:45.619 --> 00:23:50.819 graduating class in... In 1980, I want to say, 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:54.819 there were actually five male nurses, which was 00:23:54.819 --> 00:23:58.519 very unusual. And they all went into the operating 00:23:58.519 --> 00:24:02.059 room or emergency room nursing. And that still 00:24:02.059 --> 00:24:06.160 is the pattern today, James. When you see males, 00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:08.539 obviously there's more males in nursing today. 00:24:08.619 --> 00:24:12.900 I think it's up to about 12%. But in the 80s, 00:24:12.900 --> 00:24:18.019 it was, I know it was under 5%. So males in nursing 00:24:18.019 --> 00:24:21.920 are still going into those emergency room, flight 00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:26.599 nursing, ICU. They seem to be drawn towards some 00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:31.500 more adrenaline based specialties. So walk me 00:24:31.500 --> 00:24:36.400 through your journey into nursing then. OK, I 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:43.049 started nursing in. 1982. I graduated high school 00:24:43.049 --> 00:24:46.089 and I was taking courses concurrently towards 00:24:46.089 --> 00:24:48.930 my nursing degree. Graduated from nursing school 00:24:48.930 --> 00:24:54.430 in 1985. So this is a long time ago and started 00:24:54.430 --> 00:24:58.289 in pediatrics. And my reason for going into pediatrics 00:24:58.289 --> 00:25:03.490 was just sort of ridiculous. There was no thought 00:25:03.490 --> 00:25:07.349 behind it. I was 21 years old and there were 00:25:07.349 --> 00:25:11.009 four positions at my local hospital. because 00:25:11.009 --> 00:25:14.130 in the 80s we had a nursing glut if you can imagine 00:25:14.130 --> 00:25:18.730 that so there weren't very many positions and 00:25:18.730 --> 00:25:22.210 i saw pediatrics and my thinking was wow pediatrics 00:25:22.210 --> 00:25:25.549 okay i like kids and i come from a large family 00:25:25.549 --> 00:25:30.230 of kids so like how hard could it be and it was 00:25:30.230 --> 00:25:34.329 really hard because it's not just kids and you 00:25:34.329 --> 00:25:38.349 know kids are great when they're not ill and 00:25:38.349 --> 00:25:41.869 then you add illness And it changes the whole 00:25:41.869 --> 00:25:44.589 dynamic. And then, of course, kids don't come 00:25:44.589 --> 00:25:48.410 alone. They come with their parents. And that's 00:25:48.410 --> 00:25:52.130 a whole other dynamic as well. So it was really 00:25:52.130 --> 00:25:54.450 difficult for me to navigate the whole pediatric 00:25:54.450 --> 00:25:57.990 realm. But I quickly did. And I really learned 00:25:57.990 --> 00:26:02.450 to love it. I stayed in pediatrics for 18 years. 00:26:02.549 --> 00:26:06.329 And then I had the opportunity to go to the neonatal 00:26:06.329 --> 00:26:11.609 intensive care unit. And so I did that and I 00:26:11.609 --> 00:26:14.509 never regretted going into the NICU. I absolutely 00:26:14.509 --> 00:26:21.430 loved it. Again, kids, very sick, very difficult 00:26:21.430 --> 00:26:27.950 parents, very worried, all those dynamics. But 00:26:27.950 --> 00:26:30.150 I spent the next 18 years of my career in the 00:26:30.150 --> 00:26:36.460 NICU until I retired in 2022. Beautiful. Well, 00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:38.940 going back to, I've never heard that word before, 00:26:39.039 --> 00:26:41.859 nursing glut, which I'm assuming means more nurses 00:26:41.859 --> 00:26:44.720 than physicians. That seems to be very different 00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:46.640 than what we're seeing now, especially in my 00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:48.559 profession. You know, people are screaming out. 00:26:48.779 --> 00:26:52.059 And I know why we're struggling at the moment, 00:26:52.099 --> 00:26:54.279 but I don't want to load the question. What was 00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:57.440 it about the environment in the 80s where you 00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:00.599 had the equation tipped the right way, more nurses 00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:04.680 than physicians? You know, that is a great question, 00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:07.500 James. I don't really have an answer for that. 00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:13.099 I, yeah, I don't know why, but it quickly, I 00:27:13.099 --> 00:27:17.359 will say the 80s were great because we seemed 00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:21.700 to have good staffing. We had no ratios at that 00:27:21.700 --> 00:27:27.660 time, which we do here in California. But I don't 00:27:27.660 --> 00:27:31.329 know. I don't know. The patients weren't as sick, 00:27:31.509 --> 00:27:35.190 so they weren't coming in with all these comorbidities 00:27:35.190 --> 00:27:38.630 that they are coming in with now. So someone 00:27:38.630 --> 00:27:42.569 coming in for surgery in 1980, you know, they 00:27:42.569 --> 00:27:46.750 were probably fairly, I guess, healthy, as we 00:27:46.750 --> 00:27:50.529 would say today, using our metrics today, than 00:27:50.529 --> 00:27:53.089 they are now. Somebody coming in for surgery 00:27:53.089 --> 00:27:57.589 now might have type 2 diabetes. high cholesterol, 00:27:57.990 --> 00:28:02.970 obesity. There's a lot of different factors today. 00:28:03.170 --> 00:28:05.930 I don't know if that really influenced it, but 00:28:05.930 --> 00:28:11.049 I know that even from the 80s to the 90s, it 00:28:11.049 --> 00:28:14.630 changed dramatically. In the 90s, it seemed like 00:28:14.630 --> 00:28:17.670 we really started having a lot of staffing problems, 00:28:17.869 --> 00:28:22.029 and it became very challenging. And by the time 00:28:22.029 --> 00:28:26.430 I... retired in 2022, that had not changed. So 00:28:26.430 --> 00:28:32.269 for, you know, three decades, the staffing issue 00:28:32.269 --> 00:28:36.589 was always something that I had to deal with. 00:28:36.730 --> 00:28:41.309 And, you know, probably every other nurse. Well, 00:28:41.390 --> 00:28:43.730 let's go back to the comorbidities for a second. 00:28:43.890 --> 00:28:46.450 You've got this pediatric lens and then this 00:28:46.450 --> 00:28:48.910 neonate lens, obviously, I would imagine the 00:28:48.910 --> 00:28:52.769 pediatric has got more time for pre -existing 00:28:52.769 --> 00:28:55.809 diseases to manifest and obesity and those kind 00:28:55.809 --> 00:28:59.609 of things. With the last four decades, what have 00:28:59.609 --> 00:29:05.589 you seen overall as far as the body composition 00:29:05.589 --> 00:29:08.849 issue with our young people and then the associated 00:29:08.849 --> 00:29:10.970 diseases that are bringing them into the hospitals? 00:29:12.049 --> 00:29:16.329 Yeah, I will say particularly in the NICU, when 00:29:16.329 --> 00:29:20.910 I moved to the NICU, it was the late It was like 00:29:20.910 --> 00:29:29.730 2007, 2006, 2007. And in the decades that followed, 00:29:30.329 --> 00:29:34.750 the mothers, the pregnant mothers coming in had 00:29:34.750 --> 00:29:42.930 so many comorbidities. So type 2 diabetes, obesity, 00:29:43.349 --> 00:29:46.029 a lot of obesity. It seemed to just blow up. 00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:54.720 In our area, we're in a rural kind of impoverished 00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:58.279 area. There's a lot of poverty. So in around 00:29:58.279 --> 00:30:04.380 2010, 2012, we saw a huge increase in the use 00:30:04.380 --> 00:30:14.019 of methamphetamine, cocaine, heroin. seeing pregnant 00:30:14.019 --> 00:30:19.420 women come in that were on these drugs that had 00:30:19.420 --> 00:30:22.400 sexually transmitted diseases. We saw a lot of 00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.880 syphilis, a lot of gonorrhea. So these moms coming 00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:29.359 in, they had hypertension and I'm not talking 00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:34.000 about pregnancy induced hypertension all we did 00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:36.640 have a lot of pregnancy induced hypertension 00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:41.319 these were women in their 30s coming in with 00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:47.859 primary hypertension in their 30s we saw a big 00:30:47.859 --> 00:30:52.240 change in the age of our women coming in so if 00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:56.319 you're a woman and you're pregnant you are considered 00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:59.619 an elderly mother and i just that term always 00:30:59.619 --> 00:31:03.299 like throws me off but in the you know in the 00:31:03.299 --> 00:31:05.400 obstetric community that's how you're classified 00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:08.539 as an elderly mother and so we would see these 00:31:08.539 --> 00:31:11.900 a lot of moms coming in in their third in their 00:31:11.900 --> 00:31:16.319 late 30s 40s even 50s and so as you can imagine 00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:21.059 as you age uh these comorbidities just increase 00:31:21.059 --> 00:31:24.680 and They were delivering prematurely because 00:31:24.680 --> 00:31:28.640 of these comorbidities. The babies were smaller. 00:31:28.839 --> 00:31:32.880 The babies were sicker. The babies stayed longer 00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:36.900 in the hospitals. The mothers were sicker. Many 00:31:36.900 --> 00:31:38.960 mothers were going to the intensive care unit 00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:42.220 after delivering or even before delivering so 00:31:42.220 --> 00:31:46.640 that they could get stabilized. So yeah, just 00:31:46.640 --> 00:31:51.000 a huge increase from just in those three decades. 00:31:51.769 --> 00:31:56.930 of of practicing nursing a couple of my guests 00:31:56.930 --> 00:31:58.829 have mentioned and i'd love to get your take 00:31:58.829 --> 00:32:01.930 on this that unbeknownst to most of us the u 00:32:01.930 --> 00:32:06.089 .s has a terrible um outcome when it comes to 00:32:06.089 --> 00:32:08.390 infant mortality if i'm using the right term 00:32:08.390 --> 00:32:10.250 so talk to me about that because we would have 00:32:10.250 --> 00:32:12.930 you know somewhat arrogantly assume that well 00:32:12.930 --> 00:32:15.769 you know we're all fine we're a first world country 00:32:15.769 --> 00:32:17.490 you know we're the greatest country in the world 00:32:17.490 --> 00:32:20.730 beating our chest but then As you've detailed, 00:32:20.950 --> 00:32:23.349 there are many, many elements that aren't very 00:32:23.349 --> 00:32:26.490 healthy for a young boy or girl to be born into. 00:32:26.670 --> 00:32:30.329 So talk to me about where we actually rate as 00:32:30.329 --> 00:32:35.650 far as the outcomes of our childbirth. Yeah, 00:32:35.730 --> 00:32:40.650 I can't give you any hard statistics, but it's 00:32:40.650 --> 00:32:47.829 pretty common that we suck as a nation. uh regarding 00:32:47.829 --> 00:32:51.970 infant mortality and specifically uh black infant 00:32:51.970 --> 00:32:58.970 mortality so it's multi -factorial there are 00:32:58.970 --> 00:33:05.589 what we call care deserts and these are areas 00:33:05.589 --> 00:33:10.130 that because they are impoverished because they 00:33:11.210 --> 00:33:16.089 are low socioeconomic it's difficult to get physicians 00:33:16.089 --> 00:33:21.430 obstetricians advanced practice nurses anybody 00:33:21.430 --> 00:33:24.289 that sees pregnant women it's difficult to get 00:33:24.289 --> 00:33:29.349 those providers into the area okay so you're 00:33:29.349 --> 00:33:31.890 not having a lot of professionals coming into 00:33:31.890 --> 00:33:35.549 the area so the ones that are here are burdened 00:33:35.549 --> 00:33:40.509 with a really high population of patients So 00:33:40.509 --> 00:33:44.589 there's long wait times. I, you know, I will 00:33:44.589 --> 00:33:52.589 say that the model of care that we've seen, you 00:33:52.589 --> 00:33:57.410 know, over the last few decades, actually, this 00:33:57.410 --> 00:34:00.490 has been the model for a long time is very paternalistic. 00:34:01.049 --> 00:34:04.269 So, you know, you're usually seen by a male physician 00:34:04.269 --> 00:34:12.860 and there's some I don't know what the word is. 00:34:14.659 --> 00:34:19.380 Sometimes women are ignored in terms of when 00:34:19.380 --> 00:34:21.780 they come in presenting with things, you know, 00:34:21.780 --> 00:34:25.699 oh, I'm feeling this or that. And they're kind 00:34:25.699 --> 00:34:28.360 of told by their provider, well, you know, you're 00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:32.139 pregnant. You're going to experience that. But 00:34:32.139 --> 00:34:35.059 it's something deeper and oftentimes it's not 00:34:35.059 --> 00:34:37.800 looked into until it becomes a true emergency. 00:34:38.199 --> 00:34:40.679 And then the woman ends up in the emergency room 00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:43.340 and she's having an abruption and, you know, 00:34:43.340 --> 00:34:47.300 her and the baby bleed to death. So things are 00:34:47.300 --> 00:34:51.860 kind of getting pushed aside and not really delved 00:34:51.860 --> 00:34:56.579 into deeper. That's a problem. The care deserts 00:34:56.579 --> 00:35:03.610 is a problem. Our town that I live in, Visalia, 00:35:03.849 --> 00:35:06.969 we are experiencing a care desert right now, 00:35:07.150 --> 00:35:11.230 which to me is amazing because our local institution 00:35:11.230 --> 00:35:14.789 is a teaching institution. We're affiliated with 00:35:14.789 --> 00:35:22.730 UCSF, USC, Stanford, Cleveland Clinic. So we 00:35:22.730 --> 00:35:26.329 have all these affiliations. And then our biggest 00:35:26.329 --> 00:35:35.380 private... obstetrical group. That's a mouthful. 00:35:36.059 --> 00:35:39.619 They just closed down. They just closed down 00:35:39.619 --> 00:35:43.800 and they have hundreds of patients that they're 00:35:43.800 --> 00:35:47.880 seeing. And so they sent out a letter and they 00:35:47.880 --> 00:35:50.500 said, we're closing. And about two weeks later 00:35:50.500 --> 00:35:53.940 they did. So now there's all these women that 00:35:53.940 --> 00:36:00.260 are just looking for care. and having to find 00:36:00.260 --> 00:36:03.199 care in other places and and i think how does 00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:06.579 this happen how does this happen in a town that's 00:36:06.579 --> 00:36:11.059 growing that is you know affiliated with all 00:36:11.059 --> 00:36:15.440 this great care how are we now going to this 00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:25.219 place and a lot of it is because there's increasing 00:36:25.219 --> 00:36:30.460 amounts of litigation Labor and delivery is one 00:36:30.460 --> 00:36:35.380 of the most highly litigated specialties. So 00:36:35.380 --> 00:36:39.219 these physicians are complaining of really high 00:36:39.219 --> 00:36:44.840 malpractice insurance premiums. And they're trying 00:36:44.840 --> 00:36:49.079 to run a business because let's just say it, 00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:52.440 you know, it's a business, right? They're not 00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:56.679 doing it for free. And they're finding it more 00:36:56.679 --> 00:37:00.250 and more difficult. so a lot of these physicians 00:37:00.250 --> 00:37:05.489 in this group kind of got absorbed they became 00:37:05.489 --> 00:37:09.190 hospitalists so uh or laborists they're called 00:37:09.190 --> 00:37:13.010 so what they do is they do shift work now so 00:37:13.010 --> 00:37:16.610 they take shifts and they stay in the hospital 00:37:16.610 --> 00:37:22.079 and they see all the patients on the labor and 00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:24.960 delivery unit that need to be seen they're there 00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:27.860 so that if there's an emergency c -section they 00:37:27.860 --> 00:37:32.099 can do that and you know the research has shown 00:37:32.099 --> 00:37:37.940 that laborists improve the care that women are 00:37:37.940 --> 00:37:40.960 getting in the hospital because they don't have 00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:43.440 to call anyone in from their house and wait 15 00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:46.079 minutes for them to get there if the if the woman 00:37:46.079 --> 00:37:49.809 needs a c -section immediately they can do it 00:37:49.809 --> 00:37:51.389 because they're right there so they have better 00:37:51.389 --> 00:37:57.190 outcomes so i think all of those are are contributing 00:37:57.190 --> 00:38:01.590 to the low infant mortality but i feel like the 00:38:01.590 --> 00:38:05.929 main one is the condition that the mother is 00:38:05.929 --> 00:38:09.929 in before she even gets pregnant When you're 00:38:09.929 --> 00:38:12.329 talking about that closing, I'm seeing a lot 00:38:12.329 --> 00:38:14.130 of this on my social media now. It's not like 00:38:14.130 --> 00:38:17.050 I'm following rural hospitals or rural medical 00:38:17.050 --> 00:38:19.349 centers specifically, but I keep seeing that 00:38:19.349 --> 00:38:21.969 over and over again that they're closing. And 00:38:21.969 --> 00:38:24.110 what's interesting to me when you're talking 00:38:24.110 --> 00:38:28.489 about, you know. an organization that has all 00:38:28.489 --> 00:38:31.610 these very, very prestigious universities attached 00:38:31.610 --> 00:38:34.690 to it, it really parallels what I'm seeing here 00:38:34.690 --> 00:38:37.889 in Marion County, where I live. We have the Florida 00:38:37.889 --> 00:38:41.750 State Fire Academy in my county, and all these 00:38:41.750 --> 00:38:44.610 young people are going through, but none of them 00:38:44.610 --> 00:38:47.130 are working for the county where I live. And 00:38:47.130 --> 00:38:50.369 it's because people look at all the conditions 00:38:50.369 --> 00:38:53.119 on paper and go, well, this looks terrible. 56 00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:56.079 hours a week, mandatory overtime. You know, you've 00:38:56.079 --> 00:38:59.739 had six suicides or five actual suicides, two 00:38:59.739 --> 00:39:02.380 attempts in the last five years, if anyone actually 00:39:02.380 --> 00:39:04.719 does their research. This is horrendous. I'm 00:39:04.719 --> 00:39:06.460 going to go down to somewhere that actually values 00:39:06.460 --> 00:39:08.260 their people, like Gainesville, for example. 00:39:08.619 --> 00:39:11.159 And so we're losing all these young people. And 00:39:11.159 --> 00:39:12.619 I think it's the same with what you're talking 00:39:12.619 --> 00:39:15.699 about. What is it about the environment, as you 00:39:15.699 --> 00:39:18.199 mentioned, the craziness of the lawsuits that 00:39:18.199 --> 00:39:20.260 we have in this country? Of course, there's a 00:39:20.260 --> 00:39:23.739 time and place for that. But we have so many 00:39:23.739 --> 00:39:25.679 ambulance chasers trying to make lawsuits have 00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:28.099 nothing that it's just destroying the medical 00:39:28.099 --> 00:39:30.860 profession in general. But, you know, and then 00:39:30.860 --> 00:39:33.940 the working conditions and the ratios and the, 00:39:34.059 --> 00:39:36.900 you know, the satisfaction ratings and all these 00:39:36.900 --> 00:39:39.099 things that are people are held by by these corporations 00:39:39.099 --> 00:39:42.659 that own hospitals and medical centers rather 00:39:42.659 --> 00:39:46.489 than. locking back into truly just wanting to 00:39:46.489 --> 00:39:48.389 help people like you said the seven -year -old 00:39:48.389 --> 00:39:50.710 you looking at that man in the car that's what's 00:39:50.710 --> 00:39:52.869 burning in most of our hearts but it's just being 00:39:52.869 --> 00:39:55.969 torn apart by the working environment itself 00:39:55.969 --> 00:39:58.449 i'm sure the people in labor delivery still love 00:39:58.449 --> 00:40:02.949 delivering babies but it's it's diluted so if 00:40:02.949 --> 00:40:06.949 you were queen for a day how would you change 00:40:06.949 --> 00:40:09.889 the environment so that we can reverse this crisis 00:40:09.889 --> 00:40:15.500 is going on in your community Man, that's a huge 00:40:15.500 --> 00:40:20.059 task, James. We've got all day. Yeah, right. 00:40:20.860 --> 00:40:27.059 I think it just has to start. Man, I don't know 00:40:27.059 --> 00:40:31.840 where it has to start. Maybe we just have to 00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:37.980 go back. Okay, I will say working for an institution, 00:40:38.219 --> 00:40:42.150 what I don't like. And I know it's just, it's 00:40:42.150 --> 00:40:46.889 the reality is the business side of it. I think 00:40:46.889 --> 00:40:54.369 medical care being incentivized as a business 00:40:54.369 --> 00:40:58.650 is a really bad idea. Because what you're going 00:40:58.650 --> 00:41:01.869 to do is you're going to get people that, the 00:41:01.869 --> 00:41:04.809 people that have money are always going to get 00:41:04.809 --> 00:41:08.880 the care, right? Because they can pay. the people 00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:13.139 that don't um and in our community i'll say that 00:41:13.139 --> 00:41:17.480 we have a high population of medical and so medical 00:41:17.480 --> 00:41:21.300 is our it's our like a medicaid for california 00:41:21.300 --> 00:41:25.639 and because we have a lot of poor people in california 00:41:25.639 --> 00:41:28.760 amazingly i know people think of california as 00:41:28.760 --> 00:41:33.360 just all celebrities and you know rich people 00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:37.440 those are uh there's deserts of rich people but 00:41:38.360 --> 00:41:42.099 Many people here are not wealthy by any means. 00:41:42.280 --> 00:41:45.340 And so the people that are just getting by are 00:41:45.340 --> 00:41:50.159 going to get medical care, Medi -Cal. Usually 00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:52.559 every community that you go to in California 00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:57.079 has somebody that provides service for Medi -Cal 00:41:57.079 --> 00:42:02.320 recipients. What's happening is, I'll say in 00:42:02.320 --> 00:42:08.099 our local hospital, is we have about 70%. our 00:42:08.099 --> 00:42:12.579 population is medical and medical traditionally 00:42:12.579 --> 00:42:17.559 doesn't pay very much so who eats that the hospital 00:42:17.559 --> 00:42:22.960 eats that and they eat it by they have to reduce 00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:28.460 costs elsewhere right so they don't pay their 00:42:28.460 --> 00:42:38.380 employees very much their nurses very much self 00:42:38.380 --> 00:42:41.800 -funded as far as insurance which is kind of 00:42:41.800 --> 00:42:45.579 unusual but it's a great it's a great gig if 00:42:45.579 --> 00:42:49.039 you can get it in your hospital in your community 00:42:49.039 --> 00:42:52.420 because we had really we had really good benefits 00:42:52.420 --> 00:42:59.579 for the employees but um you know i just i don't 00:42:59.579 --> 00:43:07.300 like the idea of of medical care being turned 00:43:07.300 --> 00:43:13.699 into a business. And I don't know, like, you 00:43:13.699 --> 00:43:17.079 know, you're familiar with the NHS. And that's 00:43:17.079 --> 00:43:20.539 kind of like a Medicare for all in the UK, if 00:43:20.539 --> 00:43:25.960 I'm not mistaken. But, you know, is it also looked 00:43:25.960 --> 00:43:31.170 at as a business? You know, I don't know. It's 00:43:31.170 --> 00:43:33.329 interesting because, again, I'm not an expert 00:43:33.329 --> 00:43:37.110 in the NHS and all the working, moving parts. 00:43:37.289 --> 00:43:40.929 However, I do understand that it ultimately came 00:43:40.929 --> 00:43:46.070 from simply wanting everyone to have care. Full 00:43:46.070 --> 00:43:47.849 stop. That was it. It was coming from an altruistic 00:43:47.849 --> 00:43:49.989 place originally. And if I was just thinking 00:43:49.989 --> 00:43:52.369 while you were talking, if you go way back to 00:43:52.369 --> 00:43:55.199 ancient humans. There wasn't, you know, Steve 00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:57.000 the Inca. I don't know why I always call it Inca 00:43:57.000 --> 00:43:59.280 Steve. But anyway, Steve the Inca didn't have 00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:01.699 to show his, you know, insurance card when he 00:44:01.699 --> 00:44:03.800 broke his leg. No, the tribe came together, the 00:44:03.800 --> 00:44:06.079 witch doctor, whatever it was, their version 00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:08.199 of taking care of each other existed in that 00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:11.119 tribal space. It wasn't to profit off the other 00:44:11.119 --> 00:44:14.639 Incas. And so when I look back at the, in its 00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:17.960 purest form, the NHS, which I grew up in, I had, 00:44:17.960 --> 00:44:19.840 you know, rural doctors. I went to, you know, 00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:23.750 inner city hospitals. It was amazing. You know, 00:44:23.750 --> 00:44:25.550 our doctor was incredible. And I've always said 00:44:25.550 --> 00:44:29.150 this, my grandparents paid for the supplementary, 00:44:29.150 --> 00:44:31.510 it's called Bupa, which is extra private insurance 00:44:31.510 --> 00:44:32.869 that you can pay for. And they got their own 00:44:32.869 --> 00:44:35.230 clinics and it's all very la -di -da. Like you 00:44:35.230 --> 00:44:36.969 said, the wealthy people, you know, will always 00:44:36.969 --> 00:44:39.929 have care. Well, they priced my grandparents 00:44:39.929 --> 00:44:42.489 out of their plan. I mean, they lived to be, 00:44:42.590 --> 00:44:44.789 my granddad was 99. My grandmother was almost 00:44:44.789 --> 00:44:47.849 105 when she passed. And my granddad died of 00:44:47.849 --> 00:44:50.969 cancer. um tough as old boots he freaking got 00:44:50.969 --> 00:44:53.510 t -boned in a car one day at like 50 miles an 00:44:53.510 --> 00:44:55.670 hour after pulling out in front of someone and 00:44:55.670 --> 00:45:00.130 literally walked it off like 97 98 whatever he 00:45:00.130 --> 00:45:02.550 was then but that's how they discovered ultimately 00:45:02.550 --> 00:45:04.690 through scans later on that he had this cancer 00:45:04.690 --> 00:45:07.590 but bupa had already dumped them by that point 00:45:07.590 --> 00:45:10.030 you know the premiums were so insane they just 00:45:10.030 --> 00:45:11.670 couldn't afford to pay when they really needed 00:45:11.670 --> 00:45:13.610 the help now they'd invested for years and years 00:45:13.610 --> 00:45:17.170 and years so the nhs was who took care of them 00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:21.360 And I watched my local doctor do numerous house 00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:23.739 visits. They had hospital beds set up. He had 00:45:23.739 --> 00:45:27.960 hospice care. He had nurses visit. After he passed, 00:45:28.159 --> 00:45:32.559 they helped with his body. And then they came 00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:34.199 and got the furniture a little bit later. And 00:45:34.199 --> 00:45:35.860 then they kept visiting my grandmother for a 00:45:35.860 --> 00:45:39.440 few weeks after that. That was the NHS. So this 00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:41.239 is what I tell people. Yes, you're going to see 00:45:41.239 --> 00:45:43.519 those examples of some inner city hospital where 00:45:43.519 --> 00:45:45.139 someone dies in the waiting room. We have that 00:45:45.139 --> 00:45:48.860 in America, too. But at its core, and it isn't 00:45:48.860 --> 00:45:51.059 at its core now, what you see in the NHS now 00:45:51.059 --> 00:45:54.179 is they began trying to privatize parts of it 00:45:54.179 --> 00:45:57.840 a couple of decades ago now, at least. So they've 00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:00.199 torn it apart by trying to use the American model, 00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:02.960 which, as we just discussed, if you have a profit 00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:05.400 -based health care system. it's not going to 00:46:05.400 --> 00:46:07.119 benefit the health of the people because we need 00:46:07.119 --> 00:46:11.260 sick people to make money. So to me, if you actually 00:46:11.260 --> 00:46:16.639 had an NHS -style system that you didn't adulterate 00:46:16.639 --> 00:46:21.559 through privatization, your entire goal then 00:46:21.559 --> 00:46:23.800 is to make the nation as healthy as possible 00:46:23.800 --> 00:46:26.719 so that you use as little tax money as possible. 00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:29.699 We have the complete opposite here. You know, 00:46:29.739 --> 00:46:31.539 you've been in your profession a lot longer than 00:46:31.539 --> 00:46:33.840 I was in mine, but I saw it firsthand. There's 00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:35.840 no money in healthy people and there's no money 00:46:35.840 --> 00:46:38.699 in dead people, but you can be the world's best 00:46:38.699 --> 00:46:40.900 drug dealer for the people in the middle. If 00:46:40.900 --> 00:46:43.880 you're sick and alive, I got, you know, you're 00:46:43.880 --> 00:46:47.559 my cash cow for decades to come. So I think that 00:46:47.559 --> 00:46:50.239 the model, the original model of the NHS to me 00:46:50.239 --> 00:46:54.820 is by far the best system on the planet, but 00:46:54.820 --> 00:46:57.650 it has to be funded properly. And if you go back 00:46:57.650 --> 00:46:59.829 home, certainly, you know, again, when it was 00:46:59.829 --> 00:47:02.070 supported properly, the doctors were driving 00:47:02.070 --> 00:47:05.449 Mercedes. You know, it was a well -paid profession, 00:47:05.690 --> 00:47:08.289 but now it's been more and more under supported. 00:47:08.469 --> 00:47:09.909 And I remember even back when I was younger, 00:47:09.949 --> 00:47:12.909 nurses going on strike. So but if you really 00:47:12.909 --> 00:47:16.449 create that altruistic health care model and 00:47:16.449 --> 00:47:18.949 then invest in it, say, no, this is going to 00:47:18.949 --> 00:47:21.429 need more government money initially. But then 00:47:21.429 --> 00:47:23.809 you're saving money hand over fist because your 00:47:23.809 --> 00:47:26.380 nation is getting healthier and healthier. to 00:47:26.380 --> 00:47:28.360 me that's the perfect one and then even what 00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:31.019 we just talked about infant mortality it's affecting 00:47:31.019 --> 00:47:33.340 that now too because the mothers that are coming 00:47:33.340 --> 00:47:36.760 into your l d are now far more healthier and 00:47:36.760 --> 00:47:39.619 far less likely to have any complications right 00:47:39.619 --> 00:47:47.039 yeah and you know i've talked to a lot of nurses 00:47:47.039 --> 00:47:52.260 now on the podcast and you know many of them, 00:47:52.260 --> 00:47:54.780 they don't have any answers either because what 00:47:54.780 --> 00:47:57.940 it comes down to is they just want to take care 00:47:57.940 --> 00:48:01.789 of patients. They want. to be able to spend time 00:48:01.789 --> 00:48:04.789 with their patients they want ratios that are 00:48:04.789 --> 00:48:08.489 manageable that we know from lots of research 00:48:08.489 --> 00:48:12.070 you know the less patients the nurse has the 00:48:12.070 --> 00:48:15.090 better the outcome for those patients the more 00:48:15.090 --> 00:48:17.829 patients the nurse has the worst outcome for 00:48:17.829 --> 00:48:20.750 those patients and it's like well why do we study 00:48:20.750 --> 00:48:24.909 this stuff if we're not going to implement you 00:48:24.909 --> 00:48:28.099 know Proper ratios. And again, I will say I'm 00:48:28.099 --> 00:48:31.000 in California and we have ratios, but there is 00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:34.179 also ways that hospitals get around ratios, you 00:48:34.179 --> 00:48:41.000 know. So nurses, physicians, and I'm sure it's 00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:44.059 the same in the firefighter community. You were 00:48:44.059 --> 00:48:47.179 motivated to go into that profession because 00:48:47.179 --> 00:48:50.880 you want to help people, you know, whatever that 00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:53.260 means. That's always kind of a broad kind of. 00:48:53.690 --> 00:48:58.869 stroke i want to help people well okay um but 00:48:58.869 --> 00:49:01.929 then you're faced with all the bureaucracy that 00:49:01.929 --> 00:49:06.110 comes with it there's there's no money um there's 00:49:06.110 --> 00:49:10.710 you know there's crappy shifts uh there's things 00:49:10.710 --> 00:49:14.710 that you're seeing that you can't unsee and there's 00:49:14.710 --> 00:49:21.820 no mental help for that um so I don't know what 00:49:21.820 --> 00:49:24.900 the answer is, James. I don't know what the answer 00:49:24.900 --> 00:49:29.480 is, but something's got to change. And I think, 00:49:29.619 --> 00:49:35.960 yeah, I don't know what the answer is. I'm at 00:49:35.960 --> 00:49:39.829 a loss. Well, I think it just goes back to until 00:49:39.829 --> 00:49:42.909 we really lean back into kindness, compassion, 00:49:43.309 --> 00:49:46.409 empathy, community, then we're not. And as long 00:49:46.409 --> 00:49:48.949 as these lobbyists aligning the politicians of 00:49:48.949 --> 00:49:51.010 both sides of the aisle, then we're going to 00:49:51.010 --> 00:49:53.309 keep having this sick care system that we have 00:49:53.309 --> 00:49:54.809 at the moment. And we're going to keep losing 00:49:54.809 --> 00:49:57.409 so many people. I mean, you know, the whole Black 00:49:57.409 --> 00:50:00.880 Lives Matter movement, for example. Still waiting 00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:02.900 for them to talk about the obesity crisis is 00:50:02.900 --> 00:50:04.900 killing so many African -Americans in this country, 00:50:05.019 --> 00:50:07.380 you know, way more than than all the other things 00:50:07.380 --> 00:50:09.679 that are also need to be talked about. But this 00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:12.179 is this is it. I mean, they're just there's this 00:50:12.179 --> 00:50:14.659 distraction of this conversation and even COVID. 00:50:14.820 --> 00:50:16.940 I mean, my goodness, there was that little ticker 00:50:16.940 --> 00:50:19.119 on, you know, on the news stations. Oh, we've 00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:21.719 lost this many. Well, that went away. Well, we're 00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:24.139 still losing that many to the you know, to everything 00:50:24.139 --> 00:50:26.360 else that is killing people. And I would argue 00:50:26.360 --> 00:50:29.110 that COVID was just finishing off. a lot of people 00:50:29.110 --> 00:50:31.889 that were very, very sick already. So when it 00:50:31.889 --> 00:50:34.230 comes to truly caring about the health of the 00:50:34.230 --> 00:50:36.730 nation, I'm not seeing this from anyone. And 00:50:36.730 --> 00:50:41.590 even, you know, I really liked RFK prior to the 00:50:41.590 --> 00:50:43.929 election. And there's all these promises about 00:50:43.929 --> 00:50:46.670 make America healthy again. And in five months, 00:50:46.690 --> 00:50:48.429 all they've done is talk about red food dye. 00:50:48.909 --> 00:50:51.409 So there we go. I mean, you've spoken loudly. 00:50:51.510 --> 00:50:54.820 Clearly, there's no... No desire to actually 00:50:54.820 --> 00:50:57.639 fix it at all because we're in May now and nothing 00:50:57.639 --> 00:51:00.699 has changed. So I think the people have to get 00:51:00.699 --> 00:51:03.800 educated, have to get angry and rise up and demand 00:51:03.800 --> 00:51:05.400 something different because the way that we're 00:51:05.400 --> 00:51:08.880 doing it has resulted in 70 plus percent of this 00:51:08.880 --> 00:51:11.860 population being overweight or obese. And we're 00:51:11.860 --> 00:51:14.179 losing millions of people to all things related 00:51:14.179 --> 00:51:16.619 to that. And as you mentioned, it was never discussed. 00:51:17.219 --> 00:51:19.780 We're losing infants. We're losing pregnant women. 00:51:20.219 --> 00:51:22.619 You know, and where's the conversation? Where's 00:51:22.619 --> 00:51:26.840 the outrage in that? Yeah, there's there's none. 00:51:27.099 --> 00:51:29.340 There's crickets chirping. That's what I always 00:51:29.340 --> 00:51:33.219 like to say. There's crickets chirping. And, 00:51:33.440 --> 00:51:37.940 you know, what we hear with this current administration 00:51:37.940 --> 00:51:40.760 is, like you said, we're five months in and there's 00:51:40.760 --> 00:51:44.099 been very little change, if any. You know, it 00:51:44.099 --> 00:51:47.239 takes time. OK, yeah, I've heard that all my 00:51:47.239 --> 00:51:50.820 life in the nursing profession. You don't change 00:51:50.820 --> 00:51:53.940 these things overnight. OK, now I was hearing 00:51:53.940 --> 00:51:59.139 that in the 1980s and now it's 2025. And the 00:51:59.139 --> 00:52:02.699 nurses I talk to are still hearing that and we're 00:52:02.699 --> 00:52:04.920 tired of it. And nurses are leaving the profession. 00:52:05.780 --> 00:52:09.059 Physicians are getting trained and they are not 00:52:09.059 --> 00:52:12.400 going back to their communities. They are going 00:52:12.400 --> 00:52:16.039 on to where they can make the most money, where 00:52:16.039 --> 00:52:20.960 they can live in the places that. you know, are 00:52:20.960 --> 00:52:24.659 nice to live in, that have great weather, that 00:52:24.659 --> 00:52:30.179 have great socioeconomics. I will say that I'm 00:52:30.179 --> 00:52:33.820 very proud of my niece and my nephew -in -law. 00:52:33.920 --> 00:52:37.360 They are physicians here locally. They grew up 00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:40.179 here. They went to medical school. They came 00:52:40.179 --> 00:52:43.380 back here with the desire to practice in the 00:52:43.380 --> 00:52:47.190 community that they grew up in and to serve the 00:52:47.190 --> 00:52:50.250 community but they're outliers that doesn't happen 00:52:50.250 --> 00:52:53.369 and so we have these deserts where we don't have 00:52:53.369 --> 00:52:58.070 practitioners and people have to drive you know 00:52:58.070 --> 00:53:02.889 many miles hundreds of miles to find care and 00:53:02.889 --> 00:53:05.449 it's just it's just not acceptable and the insurance 00:53:05.449 --> 00:53:10.690 companies are dictating what physicians can do 00:53:10.690 --> 00:53:14.190 and what they can't do in their care and We have 00:53:14.190 --> 00:53:18.170 physicians leaving and yeah, it's a big mess 00:53:18.170 --> 00:53:21.489 and we just need a complete overhaul, but I wouldn't 00:53:21.489 --> 00:53:24.949 know where to start. Health policy has never 00:53:24.949 --> 00:53:29.610 been my thing as far as I don't have any literacy 00:53:29.610 --> 00:53:33.670 really in health policy. I'm learning so much 00:53:33.670 --> 00:53:38.909 from my guests in that realm. So it's just a 00:53:38.909 --> 00:53:42.519 multi -dimensional problem. and one that I don't 00:53:42.519 --> 00:53:48.840 see being resolved very soon, sadly. I find the 00:53:48.840 --> 00:53:52.519 term, oh, it's complicated, or it's going to 00:53:52.519 --> 00:53:56.199 take time, just the rhetoric of the coward, simply. 00:53:56.340 --> 00:53:59.099 Because, wow, you managed to find a vaccine for 00:53:59.099 --> 00:54:01.159 an unknown virus in a few months and you were 00:54:01.159 --> 00:54:03.300 getting that all over the place. You were able 00:54:03.300 --> 00:54:06.559 to shut down the planet overnight. So you're 00:54:06.559 --> 00:54:08.619 telling me that you can't make these reforms 00:54:08.619 --> 00:54:10.710 that are killing... you know, over, like you 00:54:10.710 --> 00:54:13.429 said, the span of your entire career, hundreds 00:54:13.429 --> 00:54:16.050 of millions of people, you're still air quotes 00:54:16.050 --> 00:54:18.789 working on that problem. So I think the only 00:54:18.789 --> 00:54:20.449 way that we change it is we get, like I said, 00:54:20.489 --> 00:54:21.989 everyone needs to get educated. And that's why 00:54:21.989 --> 00:54:24.989 I loved seeing the pit when that came out. I 00:54:24.989 --> 00:54:26.449 don't know if you've watched that show yet, but 00:54:26.449 --> 00:54:30.389 I haven't, I don't have, I know I don't have 00:54:30.389 --> 00:54:33.849 HBO max and I'm just like digging my feet in. 00:54:33.869 --> 00:54:38.760 I no more cable channels. But if you're able 00:54:38.760 --> 00:54:41.380 to, I think because I've done those just subscribe 00:54:41.380 --> 00:54:45.480 just for a month to watch it. And then I then 00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:48.039 I turn it off again. But yeah, it is it hits 00:54:48.039 --> 00:54:50.420 so many of the areas. I think you'd really enjoy 00:54:50.420 --> 00:54:52.579 it. And it's, you know, the medical side, they're 00:54:52.579 --> 00:54:55.059 bang on. There's nothing is actually there's 00:54:55.059 --> 00:54:57.340 not a childbirth case, I don't think in their 00:54:57.340 --> 00:55:00.139 particular. But it was really well done. But 00:55:00.139 --> 00:55:03.119 it highlights the ratios, the pressure from the 00:55:03.119 --> 00:55:06.119 admin. I mean, the violence on nurses. I mean, 00:55:06.119 --> 00:55:08.440 so many things that need to be talked about. 00:55:08.719 --> 00:55:10.639 But it's so good for people to see, like, no, 00:55:10.699 --> 00:55:13.280 this is just a regular Tuesday. and the triage 00:55:13.280 --> 00:55:15.460 area is completely full and the medics are waiting 00:55:15.460 --> 00:55:17.820 to offload patients because that was what pissed 00:55:17.820 --> 00:55:19.900 me off during covid oh you know you get these 00:55:19.900 --> 00:55:21.960 journalists in the in the uh the hallway there's 00:55:21.960 --> 00:55:23.840 people in the hallways like there's always people 00:55:23.840 --> 00:55:26.980 in the hallways where were you the other you 00:55:26.980 --> 00:55:29.079 didn't give a a few weeks ago and now you're 00:55:29.079 --> 00:55:31.320 acting like this is the end of the world yeah 00:55:31.320 --> 00:55:34.440 it's ignorance they don't know what goes on in 00:55:34.440 --> 00:55:36.300 the fire service they don't know what goes on 00:55:36.300 --> 00:55:39.079 in hospitals most people would be completely 00:55:39.079 --> 00:55:44.280 horrified to find out what we do on a daily basis 00:55:44.280 --> 00:55:48.420 and completely traumatized and and and you're 00:55:48.420 --> 00:55:50.559 right maybe it would cause people to rise up 00:55:50.559 --> 00:55:53.820 and say do you see what's going on in hospitals 00:55:53.820 --> 00:55:57.300 do you see that nurses are being attacked uh 00:55:57.300 --> 00:56:02.539 do you see you know that firefighters are killing 00:56:02.539 --> 00:56:06.710 themselves This isn't right. You know, we know 00:56:06.710 --> 00:56:09.670 that because we're in it. But I think the general 00:56:09.670 --> 00:56:12.690 population really doesn't see it or have any 00:56:12.690 --> 00:56:16.150 idea about it. That's why I'm working on getting 00:56:16.150 --> 00:56:18.630 Kinda made into a show, because to me, you know, 00:56:18.670 --> 00:56:21.570 you've got to reverse 1984. You know, you've 00:56:21.570 --> 00:56:23.809 got to use a television to educate people. That 00:56:23.809 --> 00:56:26.610 is the ultimate classroom. So if you can create 00:56:26.610 --> 00:56:28.889 something that really pulls them in, and I got 00:56:28.889 --> 00:56:31.130 a parallel project that will actually educate 00:56:31.130 --> 00:56:35.250 kind of on the side as well. Then you circumnavigate 00:56:35.250 --> 00:56:37.710 all the politics and all the corruption and all 00:56:37.710 --> 00:56:39.869 the filters and you just get right to the person's 00:56:39.869 --> 00:56:42.550 heart. So I think there's an opportunity to do 00:56:42.550 --> 00:56:44.829 it through the screen. But, you know, I've just 00:56:44.829 --> 00:56:47.710 got to make it happen. Yeah. And I will say, 00:56:47.789 --> 00:56:50.369 James, that, you know, I was one of those people 00:56:50.369 --> 00:56:53.650 that I just spoke about that didn't know what 00:56:53.650 --> 00:56:57.610 went on in the fire service. And had I seen firefighters 00:56:57.610 --> 00:57:02.079 in my community? Oh, absolutely. You know. but 00:57:02.079 --> 00:57:04.900 had no idea the challenges that they were facing 00:57:04.900 --> 00:57:08.440 and then uh you know when i met you i was at 00:57:08.440 --> 00:57:12.460 the time in my podcast career where some of my 00:57:12.460 --> 00:57:15.599 listeners and my guests were saying hey why don't 00:57:15.599 --> 00:57:18.440 you kind of branch out a little bit and interview 00:57:18.440 --> 00:57:22.639 disciplines other than nurses which was saying, 00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:26.280 we're sick of hearing about nurses. No, they 00:57:26.280 --> 00:57:28.099 weren't saying that, but they were challenging 00:57:28.099 --> 00:57:30.679 me. And so that's when I reached out to you and 00:57:30.679 --> 00:57:33.940 I said, yeah, I don't really know anything about 00:57:33.940 --> 00:57:38.940 what you do. And so I got your first book, One 00:57:38.940 --> 00:57:44.179 More Light. And that really, man, that just blew 00:57:44.179 --> 00:57:47.800 me away because I really had no idea. And then 00:57:47.800 --> 00:57:50.679 I absolutely loved your second book, Kinder, 00:57:50.920 --> 00:57:56.300 because that put it in the perspective of a story. 00:57:56.900 --> 00:58:02.599 And you just brilliantly told that. And it gave 00:58:02.599 --> 00:58:05.000 me just so much insight into being able. And 00:58:05.000 --> 00:58:06.820 I know I reached out to you because I was going 00:58:06.820 --> 00:58:09.500 to interview my local fire chief who happens 00:58:09.500 --> 00:58:13.139 to be my neighbor. And I was I was just at a 00:58:13.139 --> 00:58:15.420 loss. I'm like, I don't know what to I don't 00:58:15.420 --> 00:58:18.119 know how to prepare for this. And so you suggested 00:58:18.119 --> 00:58:21.440 that I listen to your episode with Hugh Bruder 00:58:21.440 --> 00:58:25.539 out of Florida there. And I did. And I was it 00:58:25.539 --> 00:58:32.480 just was so helpful in really just helping me 00:58:32.480 --> 00:58:35.940 understand all the challenges that your profession 00:58:35.940 --> 00:58:39.320 is up against when. When it comes right down 00:58:39.320 --> 00:58:41.219 to it, all you guys want to do is help people. 00:58:41.500 --> 00:58:43.460 You want to help your communities. You want to 00:58:43.460 --> 00:58:47.920 make your communities better, safer. And you 00:58:47.920 --> 00:58:51.079 want to do it in a way that doesn't destroy you. 00:58:51.280 --> 00:58:56.320 Right. So that when you put in your 20, 30, 35 00:58:56.320 --> 00:58:59.440 years, whatever it is, years of service, that 00:58:59.440 --> 00:59:02.119 when you retire, you're not dying, you know, 00:59:02.119 --> 00:59:08.420 two to five years later. And so. You know, I 00:59:08.420 --> 00:59:10.440 just wanted to say I appreciate all the help 00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:14.280 that you gave me interviewing Charlie. And I 00:59:14.280 --> 00:59:21.480 think I enjoyed that interview. And, you know, 00:59:21.500 --> 00:59:24.900 I heard some of the same things that you've been 00:59:24.900 --> 00:59:28.239 talking about that, you know, because I did propose 00:59:28.239 --> 00:59:32.760 to him the 24 -72 shift. And I backed that up 00:59:32.760 --> 00:59:36.000 with all your... your great information that 00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:38.380 you've been talking about for so many years. 00:59:39.420 --> 00:59:41.820 And, you know, he said, yeah, that sounds great. 00:59:42.760 --> 00:59:48.900 But, but we don't have money and we don't have 00:59:48.900 --> 00:59:53.820 staff and all the same things that you've heard 00:59:53.820 --> 00:59:57.460 over the years. And, you know, I didn't push 00:59:57.460 --> 01:00:00.219 it because I don't have enough. I don't have 01:00:00.219 --> 01:00:05.369 enough. i don't know clout behind me so to challenge 01:00:05.369 --> 01:00:10.809 him but um he was aware of your work and that's 01:00:10.809 --> 01:00:13.889 that's good that's a first step and i think absolutely 01:00:13.889 --> 01:00:17.789 what you said earlier it takes people being educated 01:00:17.789 --> 01:00:20.829 so if you're going to be a firefighter if you're 01:00:20.829 --> 01:00:24.610 going to be a nurse maybe before you even enter 01:00:24.610 --> 01:00:30.269 into your training start looking into what you're 01:00:30.269 --> 01:00:34.219 going into So that you don't go into something 01:00:34.219 --> 01:00:40.920 that you didn't think, you know, that you didn't 01:00:40.920 --> 01:00:44.099 know about, that you didn't know what were the 01:00:44.099 --> 01:00:47.519 potential pitfalls of going into this profession. 01:00:48.739 --> 01:00:51.380 Because we all just start with that burning desire 01:00:51.380 --> 01:00:55.820 to get out there and help people and serve, help 01:00:55.820 --> 01:00:59.099 our communities. And then we run into these issues 01:00:59.099 --> 01:01:02.699 which cause. burnout, and all those other things 01:01:02.699 --> 01:01:05.500 that follow. So that was a long way of saying 01:01:05.500 --> 01:01:07.519 thank you for helping me prepare for that interview. 01:01:08.400 --> 01:01:10.639 Oh, you're welcome. This is a beautiful thing, 01:01:10.659 --> 01:01:13.159 though. I learned so much from speaking to you. 01:01:13.260 --> 01:01:15.940 And this is, I think, when your friends challenge 01:01:15.940 --> 01:01:18.820 you to interview other people, this is what I 01:01:18.820 --> 01:01:20.599 found has been the superpower of my podcast, 01:01:20.679 --> 01:01:23.179 too, is just you could be interesting, excuse 01:01:23.179 --> 01:01:26.460 me, interviewing a gymnast or an astronaut or 01:01:26.460 --> 01:01:29.639 a veterinary surgeon. And the parallels between 01:01:29.639 --> 01:01:32.260 some of the things that they struggle with and 01:01:32.260 --> 01:01:35.099 the ones that we do, you remember, oh, yeah, 01:01:35.159 --> 01:01:37.139 that's right. You're a human being that does 01:01:37.139 --> 01:01:40.139 this job. You're human first. And so then some 01:01:40.139 --> 01:01:41.980 of the solutions that they found in completely 01:01:41.980 --> 01:01:44.260 different disciplines, you're like, well, why 01:01:44.260 --> 01:01:45.820 are we not doing that in the fire service? Why 01:01:45.820 --> 01:01:47.780 are we not doing that in nursing? You know, they're 01:01:47.780 --> 01:01:50.400 doing this in Norway or this in England or this 01:01:50.400 --> 01:01:54.820 in, you know. Finland school, schoolhouse, whatever 01:01:54.820 --> 01:01:56.960 it is. And you start realizing, oh, there are 01:01:56.960 --> 01:01:59.519 actually solutions out there, but that takes 01:01:59.519 --> 01:02:01.139 humility. And that's the other thing is you got 01:02:01.139 --> 01:02:03.099 to get people educated and you got them to just 01:02:03.099 --> 01:02:05.840 drop that the way we've always done it, because 01:02:05.840 --> 01:02:08.159 the way we've always done it doesn't work. Otherwise 01:02:08.159 --> 01:02:11.179 we'd have nurses, you know, fighting for positions. 01:02:11.280 --> 01:02:12.940 We'd have firefighters fighting for positions 01:02:12.940 --> 01:02:15.239 and we'd have a nation of super healthy people. 01:02:15.760 --> 01:02:18.679 But that's not the case. So it's not about doom 01:02:18.679 --> 01:02:21.059 and glooming. It's about people that care. Like 01:02:21.059 --> 01:02:24.119 you said, we're out of our uniforms now, but 01:02:24.119 --> 01:02:26.820 we still care because we still don't want people 01:02:26.820 --> 01:02:28.619 to suffer. We still don't want people to die. 01:02:28.840 --> 01:02:31.840 And so now being this force multiplier, you and 01:02:31.840 --> 01:02:34.079 I have got a microphone instead of a stethoscope. 01:02:34.579 --> 01:02:37.079 And we're like, okay, well, it's, you know, we 01:02:37.079 --> 01:02:39.500 as a profession need to force change because 01:02:39.500 --> 01:02:41.659 people admire nurses. They admire firefighters 01:02:41.659 --> 01:02:46.510 and paramedics. So United. We would have an incredibly 01:02:46.510 --> 01:02:50.269 powerful voice, but we're so siloed and so overworked 01:02:50.269 --> 01:02:53.230 and exhausted that it's really hard to rally 01:02:53.230 --> 01:02:58.429 the troops. Yeah, I always just tell people to 01:02:58.429 --> 01:03:04.929 imagine your community with no nurses and no 01:03:04.929 --> 01:03:08.449 firefighters. You go into the hospital and you 01:03:08.449 --> 01:03:12.070 go into the emergency room with whatever, an 01:03:12.070 --> 01:03:16.420 injury. sorry, there's nobody there to take care 01:03:16.420 --> 01:03:19.960 of you. Your house is burning down. You know, 01:03:19.980 --> 01:03:22.420 your husband's having a heart attack. I'm sorry. 01:03:22.579 --> 01:03:25.500 Oh, you called 911. There's nobody to respond. 01:03:26.760 --> 01:03:28.920 And, you know, people laugh and they say that 01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:31.619 would never happen. And I say that would never 01:03:31.619 --> 01:03:35.739 happen because of the people that are in these 01:03:35.739 --> 01:03:39.400 professions that care enough to never let that 01:03:39.400 --> 01:03:44.670 happen. But if only for those people. If it's 01:03:44.670 --> 01:03:49.929 for other people, if it's for the insurance company, 01:03:50.090 --> 01:03:53.630 the institutions, I don't know if they would 01:03:53.630 --> 01:03:57.610 care so much. Well, you touched on some of the 01:03:57.610 --> 01:03:59.989 challenges that my profession faces, and we've 01:03:59.989 --> 01:04:01.849 talked about some of the challenges that the 01:04:01.849 --> 01:04:05.530 patients face themselves. What are some of the 01:04:05.530 --> 01:04:07.929 lesser known elements that are affecting the 01:04:07.929 --> 01:04:10.710 nursing professions? I mean, again, the men and 01:04:10.710 --> 01:04:13.170 women in your profession work shifts. We see, 01:04:13.170 --> 01:04:17.309 again, some of the ill health, the obesity and 01:04:17.309 --> 01:04:19.670 some of the smokings, one that really blows me 01:04:19.670 --> 01:04:23.369 away. But this profession sees these people that 01:04:23.369 --> 01:04:26.690 are so, so sick, and yet the need to stay up, 01:04:26.750 --> 01:04:29.750 the need to deal with the stress. A lot of times 01:04:29.750 --> 01:04:31.730 you'll see people smoking outside the ER when 01:04:31.730 --> 01:04:34.559 they've got lots of people. dying from the very 01:04:34.559 --> 01:04:37.679 thing that they're leaning into. So what are 01:04:37.679 --> 01:04:40.380 some of the overall issues that you want to highlight 01:04:40.380 --> 01:04:42.199 when it comes to advocating for your people? 01:04:43.440 --> 01:04:47.000 Yeah, that's a great point, James. Nurses are 01:04:47.000 --> 01:04:51.039 great caretakers, except when it comes to caring 01:04:51.039 --> 01:04:57.429 for themselves. And, you know, we know it. We're 01:04:57.429 --> 01:05:00.489 just not good about stuff like that. And, you 01:05:00.489 --> 01:05:04.969 know, I had D .D. Finder on my show and he highlighted 01:05:04.969 --> 01:05:08.349 it so beautifully. He said because we were talking 01:05:08.349 --> 01:05:14.710 about how nurses are. Many of us are very deconditioned. 01:05:14.710 --> 01:05:17.309 You know, we don't exercise on a regular basis. 01:05:17.869 --> 01:05:20.949 And the lie we tell ourselves, and I definitely 01:05:20.949 --> 01:05:25.429 told myself this lie many, many years was. I 01:05:25.429 --> 01:05:31.090 run my ass off for 12, 13 hours. I'm getting 01:05:31.090 --> 01:05:37.849 exercise. That's a lie. It's not the right kind 01:05:37.849 --> 01:05:42.510 of exercise. I wasn't lifting any weights. I 01:05:42.510 --> 01:05:45.670 was exhausted at the end of the shift. So the 01:05:45.670 --> 01:05:49.630 next day I didn't do anything, but I kept justifying 01:05:49.630 --> 01:05:53.710 it to myself that. Hey, I ran, you know, I probably 01:05:53.710 --> 01:05:57.869 walked, you know, 13, 14, 15 ,000 steps yesterday 01:05:57.869 --> 01:06:01.150 at work. So that gives me the right to just sit 01:06:01.150 --> 01:06:05.210 on my ass today. And, you know, I see this multiplied 01:06:05.210 --> 01:06:08.789 by many, many, many nurses. And a lot of it is 01:06:08.789 --> 01:06:11.690 just, you know, sheer exhaustion. So we're just 01:06:11.690 --> 01:06:15.570 going to do the basics. We, you know, I will 01:06:15.570 --> 01:06:20.639 say for myself. In 2009, I was diagnosed with 01:06:20.639 --> 01:06:24.300 breast cancer. And I look at the years leading 01:06:24.300 --> 01:06:26.780 up to that diagnosis, because I was young, I 01:06:26.780 --> 01:06:29.800 was only 45. And I was like, what was happening 01:06:29.800 --> 01:06:35.659 in those years before I got diagnosed? I was 01:06:35.659 --> 01:06:41.889 working. So our Nikki was growing so fast. that 01:06:41.889 --> 01:06:45.849 we had no staff we had so we had just brought 01:06:45.849 --> 01:06:48.690 on a neonatology group which means we're keeping 01:06:48.690 --> 01:06:56.289 sicker earlier babies and we were also in the 01:06:56.289 --> 01:06:59.050 middle of a methamphetamine crisis in our county 01:06:59.050 --> 01:07:01.750 so we were having these moms come in that were 01:07:01.750 --> 01:07:05.090 sicker and delivering these babies that were 01:07:05.090 --> 01:07:08.500 more premature and the babies were sicker And 01:07:08.500 --> 01:07:11.000 our NICU was growing. So we had more patients 01:07:11.000 --> 01:07:13.579 who were sicker. The acuity was higher and so 01:07:13.579 --> 01:07:19.340 forth. And they implemented in our hospital, 01:07:19.599 --> 01:07:24.159 they implemented what was called extra shift 01:07:24.159 --> 01:07:27.719 incentive. And it was really good. The money 01:07:27.719 --> 01:07:31.840 was really good. So we could make an extra $400 01:07:31.840 --> 01:07:36.690 per 12 -hour shift. And there weren't many nurses 01:07:36.690 --> 01:07:39.210 that turned that down. So what happened was we 01:07:39.210 --> 01:07:42.989 all jumped on board with it. And I had two girls 01:07:42.989 --> 01:07:45.809 that were just going to start college at that 01:07:45.809 --> 01:07:50.849 time. And I'm not one who likes a lot of debt. 01:07:51.050 --> 01:07:58.110 So I said, hmm, let me see how many shifts I 01:07:58.110 --> 01:08:02.230 can work so that we can pay cash. for these girls 01:08:02.230 --> 01:08:06.250 to go to college. My husband was a teacher and 01:08:06.250 --> 01:08:10.429 his, you know, he wasn't as flexible in his job. 01:08:10.710 --> 01:08:12.789 He couldn't really, you know, quote unquote, 01:08:12.949 --> 01:08:16.289 work extra. So he worked his regular, you know, 01:08:16.310 --> 01:08:18.850 Monday through Friday job. But I had a lot more 01:08:18.850 --> 01:08:22.189 flexibility in my job. So during those years, 01:08:22.229 --> 01:08:27.350 I was working five to six 12 hour shifts per 01:08:27.350 --> 01:08:31.350 week. And what happens when you're working that 01:08:31.350 --> 01:08:35.390 much? Something has to suffer. So physically, 01:08:35.609 --> 01:08:39.229 I was not doing anything except running around 01:08:39.229 --> 01:08:42.569 all day at work. On my one to two days off a 01:08:42.569 --> 01:08:45.850 week, I was not doing anything physically, not 01:08:45.850 --> 01:08:50.630 working out. I did not have time because I would 01:08:50.630 --> 01:08:53.689 get home at 7, 730 at night. So meal planning 01:08:53.689 --> 01:08:59.380 was out. My husband really didn't cook. One of 01:08:59.380 --> 01:09:02.199 my girls had left home and the other girl was 01:09:02.199 --> 01:09:04.739 at home, but she was working full time, so didn't 01:09:04.739 --> 01:09:07.739 have a lot of time. So we were eating out a lot. 01:09:08.140 --> 01:09:10.779 We were getting I was getting off shift at seven, 01:09:10.899 --> 01:09:13.539 seven thirty and we'd go out to eat. And then 01:09:13.539 --> 01:09:17.119 I would try to go to bed by nine, having eaten 01:09:17.119 --> 01:09:23.460 at eight. And it just I wasn't sleeping. I wasn't 01:09:23.460 --> 01:09:26.260 eating well. I wasn't taking care of myself. 01:09:26.380 --> 01:09:30.899 I was just working. coming home and did that 01:09:30.899 --> 01:09:34.000 for several years and oh yeah i could pat myself 01:09:34.000 --> 01:09:37.079 on the back because you know we put two girls 01:09:37.079 --> 01:09:40.039 through college without any debt that's another 01:09:40.039 --> 01:09:44.380 that's a whole another issue that needs to be 01:09:44.380 --> 01:09:47.140 overhauled right but we don't have an extra two 01:09:47.140 --> 01:09:51.500 hours for that today so you know at 45 years 01:09:51.500 --> 01:09:54.920 old i'm i'm getting you know i'm sitting in a 01:09:54.920 --> 01:09:56.739 doctor's office and he's telling me you have 01:09:56.739 --> 01:10:00.199 breast cancer You got to remove that breast and 01:10:00.199 --> 01:10:03.060 have chemo. And so I did that. That was my wake 01:10:03.060 --> 01:10:05.800 up call. And we all hope we get a wake up call, 01:10:05.920 --> 01:10:10.380 right? And that was mine, that something's got 01:10:10.380 --> 01:10:14.100 to give. There are more important things than 01:10:14.100 --> 01:10:19.060 money. Your health is one of them. And so that 01:10:19.060 --> 01:10:23.619 started my journey into really taking a look 01:10:23.619 --> 01:10:30.569 at what I could change in my life. um at that 01:10:30.569 --> 01:10:33.250 point i never said i want to get out of nursing 01:10:33.250 --> 01:10:37.689 because it was like a badge for me it was a badge 01:10:37.689 --> 01:10:40.810 that i wore proudly look at me look at how many 01:10:40.810 --> 01:10:43.949 hours i've worked this week it wasn't just about 01:10:43.949 --> 01:10:46.949 the money that i was getting all that was although 01:10:46.949 --> 01:10:51.829 that was highly attractive and i was proud of 01:10:51.829 --> 01:10:56.949 that too but it came at a price so um that's 01:10:56.949 --> 01:10:59.250 when things really changed for me in terms of 01:10:59.250 --> 01:11:01.829 looking at you got to do something different 01:11:01.829 --> 01:11:09.310 and um yeah and so going back you know i kind 01:11:09.310 --> 01:11:11.729 of got off went down a rabbit hole there but 01:11:11.729 --> 01:11:15.819 what dd said was nurses are are deconditioned 01:11:15.819 --> 01:11:17.520 you know they're not working out they're not 01:11:17.520 --> 01:11:19.819 lifting weights they're sitting around in the 01:11:19.819 --> 01:11:23.380 icu and then they have to go turn a patient or 01:11:23.380 --> 01:11:25.819 do a procedure on a patient or lift a patient 01:11:25.819 --> 01:11:28.560 get a patient out of bed and they're going from 01:11:28.560 --> 01:11:32.140 like zero to 60 in 2 .5 seconds so they've been 01:11:32.140 --> 01:11:34.060 sitting and then they're going to get up and 01:11:34.060 --> 01:11:39.560 lift this you know 250 300 pound person and they're 01:11:39.560 --> 01:11:43.539 hurting their backs they're um you know they're 01:11:43.539 --> 01:11:47.079 they're tearing their shoulders and then they're 01:11:47.079 --> 01:11:52.500 going out on disability. And so, you know, yes, 01:11:52.579 --> 01:11:55.739 we have to look at all the things we're preaching. 01:11:55.979 --> 01:11:59.520 We have to practice what we preach. And we preach 01:11:59.520 --> 01:12:03.520 this to our patients all the time about, you 01:12:03.520 --> 01:12:10.569 know, don't smoke, don't get fat, exercise. Take 01:12:10.569 --> 01:12:13.310 care of your mental health. But then when it 01:12:13.310 --> 01:12:16.170 comes to doing those very things that we're preaching, 01:12:16.409 --> 01:12:19.569 we're really bad at it. We're getting better, 01:12:19.710 --> 01:12:24.750 but we're not there yet. That badge of honor 01:12:24.750 --> 01:12:26.670 that, you know, I'll sleep when I'm dead mentality 01:12:26.670 --> 01:12:29.350 is one of the enemies of. the wellness movement 01:12:29.350 --> 01:12:32.449 in our profession. And sadly, because they're 01:12:32.449 --> 01:12:35.449 so understaffed at the moment, they're enabling 01:12:35.449 --> 01:12:37.409 these people to work more and more and more, 01:12:37.489 --> 01:12:40.289 whether they're forcing them, truly volunteering, 01:12:40.310 --> 01:12:41.989 or what happens in the middle, I'm sure it's 01:12:41.989 --> 01:12:44.609 the same with you, is there's that group where 01:12:44.609 --> 01:12:46.590 they're working so one of their other firefighters 01:12:46.590 --> 01:12:49.569 doesn't get hit because they just had a newborn 01:12:49.569 --> 01:12:51.489 baby or whatever it is. So you take one on the 01:12:51.489 --> 01:12:54.170 chin for them. But if you put it in any other 01:12:54.170 --> 01:12:56.829 profession, that just wouldn't fly. If you work 01:12:56.829 --> 01:12:59.069 for a grocery store and they're like, okay, we 01:12:59.069 --> 01:13:01.170 need you to work three extra days a week, you'd 01:13:01.170 --> 01:13:04.149 be like, no. If you worked in a bank, you worked 01:13:04.149 --> 01:13:07.510 anywhere else, a dental office, it's not going 01:13:07.510 --> 01:13:11.909 to fly. But the mismanagement of a hospital or 01:13:11.909 --> 01:13:15.170 a fire department always falls squarely on the 01:13:15.170 --> 01:13:17.329 responder, the nurse. And like you said, in some 01:13:17.329 --> 01:13:20.829 cases, there's a financial incentive, but it's 01:13:20.829 --> 01:13:23.130 so irresponsible because, I mean, you highlighted 01:13:23.130 --> 01:13:25.970 it perfectly with your story. It's a false economy. 01:13:26.170 --> 01:13:28.770 Yes, you had a few extra pennies for working, 01:13:28.890 --> 01:13:33.569 but what was the true cost downstream of overworking 01:13:33.569 --> 01:13:37.029 an employee? So yes, it's about ownership, but 01:13:37.029 --> 01:13:40.890 it's also really ultimately about managing the 01:13:40.890 --> 01:13:44.510 place of employment. Because if that overtime 01:13:44.510 --> 01:13:47.770 isn't there, then guess what? The employee can't 01:13:47.770 --> 01:13:50.130 overwork. It's physically impossible. And then 01:13:50.130 --> 01:13:52.840 you educate them if they work on the side. to 01:13:52.840 --> 01:13:54.779 or, you know, actually put it in writing that 01:13:54.779 --> 01:13:57.640 you cannot work overnight on your day off. Like, 01:13:57.680 --> 01:14:00.000 yeah, go landscape, go, you know, build cabinets, 01:14:00.140 --> 01:14:02.500 whatever you want to do. But you have a responsibility 01:14:02.500 --> 01:14:05.600 to be well rested when you come back. So it's 01:14:05.600 --> 01:14:08.500 always on the nurse, the firefighter, the police 01:14:08.500 --> 01:14:10.819 officer. And no one really says, well, wait a 01:14:10.819 --> 01:14:12.619 second. Why are there so many vacancies in the 01:14:12.619 --> 01:14:15.060 first place? I've literally had chiefs tell me 01:14:15.060 --> 01:14:16.899 if we give if we give them more time off, they'll 01:14:16.899 --> 01:14:19.880 just work more. I'm like, what an arrogant thing 01:14:19.880 --> 01:14:22.899 to say. They will not be able to work more if 01:14:22.899 --> 01:14:24.859 you actually know how to manage your fire department, 01:14:25.079 --> 01:14:27.220 because there will be no vacancies apart from 01:14:27.220 --> 01:14:30.260 once in a while. So the reason why your story 01:14:30.260 --> 01:14:32.340 is told as it is, even though, like you said, 01:14:32.399 --> 01:14:35.100 yes, there was a financial benefit, had your 01:14:35.100 --> 01:14:38.979 organization staffed themselves properly, you 01:14:38.979 --> 01:14:40.819 would never have been down that road in the first 01:14:40.819 --> 01:14:43.380 place and possibly never even had to have the 01:14:43.380 --> 01:14:47.210 medical journey that you had. yeah that's absolutely 01:14:47.210 --> 01:14:51.250 true that's the crux of the matter and um funny 01:14:51.250 --> 01:14:54.529 we had a very intuitive manager at the time in 01:14:54.529 --> 01:14:57.710 the nicu that when they instituted this all this 01:14:57.710 --> 01:15:02.350 overtime she told us you guys have to be very 01:15:02.350 --> 01:15:07.149 careful about this about not working too much 01:15:07.149 --> 01:15:10.670 i know it's because we had people going oh, now 01:15:10.670 --> 01:15:13.050 I, you know, my husband can buy that boat that 01:15:13.050 --> 01:15:16.029 he's always wanted. And I only have to work this 01:15:16.029 --> 01:15:20.770 many overtime shifts to do it. And, you know, 01:15:20.789 --> 01:15:23.689 she said, you got to be careful, be careful because 01:15:23.689 --> 01:15:26.970 you, you got to take care of yourself and you 01:15:26.970 --> 01:15:31.770 can definitely go down this rabbit hole at the 01:15:31.770 --> 01:15:34.729 thought of, you know, making all this money. 01:15:35.130 --> 01:15:39.609 And man, she was right. Well, I want to get on 01:15:39.609 --> 01:15:42.130 to the mental health side as well. But just before 01:15:42.130 --> 01:15:46.569 we do, this can be some severe calls. It can 01:15:46.569 --> 01:15:49.109 be some beautiful outcomes, whatever it is. But 01:15:49.109 --> 01:15:52.729 when you reflect back on this incredible journey 01:15:52.729 --> 01:15:55.090 that you have with pediatric and neonate patients, 01:15:55.409 --> 01:15:59.609 what are some of the outcomes that really stuck 01:15:59.609 --> 01:16:05.609 with you, positive or negative? uh positive definitely 01:16:05.609 --> 01:16:09.329 anytime that you have a child come in that's 01:16:09.329 --> 01:16:14.630 gravely ill and you can be part of the team that 01:16:14.630 --> 01:16:17.569 turns that around and then you see that child 01:16:17.569 --> 01:16:21.630 go home with his parents without any you know 01:16:21.630 --> 01:16:27.130 bad uh sequelae like that is just so gratifying 01:16:27.130 --> 01:16:32.319 it's like that cements why you're there, why 01:16:32.319 --> 01:16:34.220 you're doing all the things that you're doing. 01:16:34.920 --> 01:16:38.399 And it's not just one person, it's a team and 01:16:38.399 --> 01:16:44.340 loved working on teams. But yeah, and the same 01:16:44.340 --> 01:16:46.779 for NICU, we would have some very premature babies, 01:16:46.859 --> 01:16:49.140 babies that weighed less than a pound that were 01:16:49.140 --> 01:16:52.140 hospitalized for five months that went through 01:16:52.140 --> 01:16:55.880 hell and back. And to be able to see those parents, 01:16:55.880 --> 01:16:58.560 you know, take that child out in their arms. 01:16:59.430 --> 01:17:03.770 doing well and starting their life is just very 01:17:03.770 --> 01:17:06.229 gratifying. I think that's why many people go 01:17:06.229 --> 01:17:11.949 into the profession. Negatively, you know, I 01:17:11.949 --> 01:17:20.149 just think the cumulative stress of seeing what 01:17:20.149 --> 01:17:26.729 you see on a daily basis, I guess, is And it's, 01:17:26.729 --> 01:17:29.510 as DeeDee said, you know, and he quoted it from 01:17:29.510 --> 01:17:31.869 somebody else, the death by a thousand cuts, 01:17:32.090 --> 01:17:36.989 the moral distress of not being able to care 01:17:36.989 --> 01:17:40.250 for people the way that you know you should be 01:17:40.250 --> 01:17:42.949 able to care for them, the way that's ethically 01:17:42.949 --> 01:17:46.350 responsible to care for them. And then to go 01:17:46.350 --> 01:17:49.970 home and have to live with that is, it's really 01:17:49.970 --> 01:17:52.409 difficult. It's really hard on your mental health. 01:17:53.149 --> 01:17:55.090 and there's not many people that you can talk 01:17:55.090 --> 01:17:59.470 to about it as far as like in my family you know 01:17:59.470 --> 01:18:02.890 my my husband definitely would always be a listening 01:18:02.890 --> 01:18:07.550 ear but didn't really know all the ins and outs 01:18:07.550 --> 01:18:11.850 of the profession although there were six nurses 01:18:11.850 --> 01:18:15.130 in our family so many of my siblings are nurses 01:18:15.130 --> 01:18:18.289 we didn't really talk about the things that laid 01:18:18.289 --> 01:18:21.920 heavily on us to each other And after interviewing 01:18:21.920 --> 01:18:25.100 so many nurses, I find that to be true as well. 01:18:25.300 --> 01:18:28.739 Like in the day to day, nurses don't talk to 01:18:28.739 --> 01:18:30.920 each other about those things. They don't talk 01:18:30.920 --> 01:18:34.899 to each other about, you know, the patient that 01:18:34.899 --> 01:18:39.180 they took care of for, you know, weeks died. 01:18:39.680 --> 01:18:44.680 We just we just handle it ourselves. We don't 01:18:44.680 --> 01:18:47.539 talk about it. Thankfully, there are debriefs 01:18:47.539 --> 01:18:52.779 now. And we had a great clinical educator in 01:18:52.779 --> 01:18:57.359 the NICU that did some great debriefs when we 01:18:57.359 --> 01:19:00.520 would lose babies. And that helped a little bit. 01:19:00.579 --> 01:19:02.880 But each person is responsible for their own 01:19:02.880 --> 01:19:05.960 mental health. We didn't really rely on each 01:19:05.960 --> 01:19:08.840 other for that, which is sadly, when I think 01:19:08.840 --> 01:19:12.119 back now, like, man, I was working alongside 01:19:12.119 --> 01:19:15.199 these people, but I had no idea what they were 01:19:15.199 --> 01:19:19.050 bearing. And nobody ever asked me, you know, 01:19:19.050 --> 01:19:22.470 and I don't know why that is. Is it the same 01:19:22.470 --> 01:19:26.029 in the firefighter community? Yeah, it really 01:19:26.029 --> 01:19:27.670 is. I think that one of the problems is that 01:19:27.670 --> 01:19:30.630 you probably look across the NICU at each other 01:19:30.630 --> 01:19:32.909 and go, well, you know, Steve or Sylvia is doing 01:19:32.909 --> 01:19:35.350 fine. So I'm going to keep my stuff to myself. 01:19:35.489 --> 01:19:37.270 But they're looking across at you thinking exactly 01:19:37.270 --> 01:19:40.090 the same thing because. As I've said, you know, 01:19:40.109 --> 01:19:42.869 if I go on to into a fire, I can't run around 01:19:42.869 --> 01:19:45.289 screaming like a queen saying, oh, my God, it's 01:19:45.289 --> 01:19:48.050 so hot. I've got to get in there from a big boy 01:19:48.050 --> 01:19:50.710 pants on and do the job. But then you pull out, 01:19:50.729 --> 01:19:53.569 you know, a child. You do have to process that 01:19:53.569 --> 01:19:56.489 at some point. But we wear these masks so well, 01:19:56.569 --> 01:19:58.369 the same way as you would have to during, you 01:19:58.369 --> 01:20:01.550 know, whatever it is working with a child that 01:20:01.550 --> 01:20:03.430 we forget that you've got to pull that thing 01:20:03.430 --> 01:20:05.789 off when you're done, you know, in your flow 01:20:05.789 --> 01:20:08.180 state working as an actual. you know, in the 01:20:08.180 --> 01:20:11.920 operation of the field. But I think it's becoming 01:20:11.920 --> 01:20:13.960 more and more of a conversation now. I think 01:20:13.960 --> 01:20:15.899 this is what's great about these young firefighters, 01:20:16.140 --> 01:20:18.439 paramedics, nurses, is they're coming in with 01:20:18.439 --> 01:20:21.779 a lot more emotional intuition and vulnerability. 01:20:22.260 --> 01:20:24.439 So now it's tempering it and getting them to 01:20:24.439 --> 01:20:26.840 understand, okay, this is when you really have 01:20:26.840 --> 01:20:28.340 to just roll up your sleeves and get on with 01:20:28.340 --> 01:20:31.399 it. But then absolutely, we need to be able to 01:20:31.399 --> 01:20:33.399 converse and say, yeah, that was horrible. And 01:20:33.399 --> 01:20:36.340 when I think about the ones that were... The 01:20:36.340 --> 01:20:39.220 worst, they will involve children. And that's 01:20:39.220 --> 01:20:42.479 what you work with your entire career. So, of 01:20:42.479 --> 01:20:46.159 course, it's going to be a massive load in pediatrics 01:20:46.159 --> 01:20:48.619 and neonates because it's, let's be honest, it's 01:20:48.619 --> 01:20:51.819 the most sad of events. These poor little boys 01:20:51.819 --> 01:20:54.539 and girls have barely had a chance to even have 01:20:54.539 --> 01:20:57.819 this existence and it's taken from them. Yeah, 01:20:57.899 --> 01:21:01.479 I will highlight something that happened in my 01:21:01.479 --> 01:21:05.560 career. My first year, I was 21, brand new nurse, 01:21:05.619 --> 01:21:09.539 1986. And I had my first pediatric death just 01:21:09.539 --> 01:21:13.100 a few months into my practice. This was a little 01:21:13.100 --> 01:21:16.460 girl that died of pneumonia, overwhelming sepsis. 01:21:16.640 --> 01:21:19.220 And her parents had just left for the night to 01:21:19.220 --> 01:21:22.159 go home. Because at that time, James, this is 01:21:22.159 --> 01:21:24.579 so ridiculous. We didn't let parents stay overnight 01:21:24.579 --> 01:21:27.279 in the hospital with their children. So imagine 01:21:27.279 --> 01:21:30.640 being the parent of a sick child and the nurse 01:21:30.640 --> 01:21:33.510 is telling you, It's eight o 'clock. You got 01:21:33.510 --> 01:21:37.210 to go home. Who does the child want when they're 01:21:37.210 --> 01:21:40.069 sick? They want their parent. You know, developmentally, 01:21:40.069 --> 01:21:43.029 we know that's really bad to separate them. But 01:21:43.029 --> 01:21:47.250 we did that and the parents left and the child 01:21:47.250 --> 01:21:50.529 died. And then we had to call the parents back 01:21:50.529 --> 01:21:54.689 and they were about 30 minutes away. And, you 01:21:54.689 --> 01:22:01.659 know, it was just incredibly. And, you know, 01:22:01.659 --> 01:22:04.439 I was tasked with the postmortem care of this 01:22:04.439 --> 01:22:07.699 child and I had to put the child in a body bag. 01:22:07.840 --> 01:22:10.880 And I remember zipping up the body bag and stopping, 01:22:10.920 --> 01:22:15.600 stopping the zipper right at the neck and not 01:22:15.600 --> 01:22:21.060 wanting the face to go into the bag. And the 01:22:21.060 --> 01:22:25.199 nurse that was with me said, you have to zip 01:22:25.199 --> 01:22:28.920 it up, you know. the whole way. And I said, but 01:22:28.920 --> 01:22:36.119 she's not going to be able to breathe. And, you 01:22:36.119 --> 01:22:39.359 know, this nurse was very intuitive and she said, 01:22:39.399 --> 01:22:41.939 it's okay, honey. She's, she's not breathing. 01:22:42.079 --> 01:22:46.640 You know, she's died. So obviously I hadn't processed 01:22:46.640 --> 01:22:51.420 it by that time. Now, what would happen today? 01:22:51.560 --> 01:22:54.600 If that happened, that nurse would be sent home 01:22:54.600 --> 01:22:58.739 for the shift. If the manager had to come in 01:22:58.739 --> 01:23:01.420 and take over her patients, that's what would 01:23:01.420 --> 01:23:06.119 happen in our hospital anyway. And that's better. 01:23:06.199 --> 01:23:08.000 And then they would reach out to that nurse and 01:23:08.000 --> 01:23:11.560 get her hooked up with some kind of mental health, 01:23:11.720 --> 01:23:17.380 some kind of a therapist to help the nurse process 01:23:17.380 --> 01:23:21.119 this. So that's a great change in the last, you 01:23:21.119 --> 01:23:25.619 know, 36, 40 years from when I went through it. 01:23:27.279 --> 01:23:30.680 You mentioned about some of the baggage, basically, 01:23:30.680 --> 01:23:32.460 that you carried into the profession. I think 01:23:32.460 --> 01:23:34.220 this is really important for people to understand. 01:23:34.319 --> 01:23:39.220 A lot of us that do this, that are empaths, usually 01:23:39.220 --> 01:23:41.840 have got some stuff in their early life. And 01:23:41.840 --> 01:23:45.000 whether it's parents battling alcoholism or domestic 01:23:45.000 --> 01:23:47.479 abuse or child abuse or whatever the thing is, 01:23:47.699 --> 01:23:50.720 you see that a lot. Now, that doesn't mean that 01:23:50.720 --> 01:23:54.250 it's going to be detrimental. But it is if it's 01:23:54.250 --> 01:23:56.710 forced down, if it's left unaddressed, I think 01:23:56.710 --> 01:23:58.810 it does become a fracture in our foundation then. 01:23:58.869 --> 01:24:01.229 And it needs to be part of the overall conversation 01:24:01.229 --> 01:24:04.229 of mental health in our professions, respectively. 01:24:05.250 --> 01:24:08.770 When you reflect back now, where were the lowest 01:24:08.770 --> 01:24:11.270 places that you got? And then what were the tools 01:24:11.270 --> 01:24:14.710 that you've used to, you know, grow from that 01:24:14.710 --> 01:24:23.489 to get that post -traumatic growth? Wow. I will 01:24:23.489 --> 01:24:26.010 say you are absolutely right on about that, about 01:24:26.010 --> 01:24:30.189 people that enter the helping professions are 01:24:30.189 --> 01:24:33.149 usually usually bringing a lot of baggage with 01:24:33.149 --> 01:24:36.390 them. Right. And so in my own case, growing up 01:24:36.390 --> 01:24:39.909 in an alcoholic family, being a victim of sexual 01:24:39.909 --> 01:24:44.510 abuse, a lot of childhood trauma. And I'm bringing 01:24:44.510 --> 01:24:49.470 that into a profession. And I know now from talking 01:24:49.470 --> 01:24:53.100 to so many nurses that. That's exactly what's 01:24:53.100 --> 01:24:56.300 happening on a grander scale. But none of us 01:24:56.300 --> 01:24:59.779 are talking about it. I worked alongside nurses 01:24:59.779 --> 01:25:05.560 my whole career that I never knew anything about 01:25:05.560 --> 01:25:10.539 their family history, what they had suffered. 01:25:11.060 --> 01:25:15.619 I had no inkling. And they were probably suffering 01:25:15.619 --> 01:25:19.359 some of the same things that I had. And so I 01:25:19.359 --> 01:25:22.479 think... You're absolutely right. We take all 01:25:22.479 --> 01:25:25.920 this childhood trauma and many for many of us, 01:25:25.939 --> 01:25:30.079 it's unprocessed trauma into our professions. 01:25:30.140 --> 01:25:34.060 And we try to care for people with all of that 01:25:34.060 --> 01:25:37.880 stuff. And we kind of lose ourselves in the process. 01:25:39.600 --> 01:25:43.920 As far as my journey, I don't think there was 01:25:43.920 --> 01:25:51.340 like a time where. I got so low. I think early 01:25:51.340 --> 01:25:55.119 in my career, in my 20s, I started seeing a therapist 01:25:55.119 --> 01:25:58.420 for to help heal some of that childhood trauma. 01:25:59.279 --> 01:26:02.079 And I think that served me throughout my career 01:26:02.079 --> 01:26:05.159 because I could recognize it in others and I 01:26:05.159 --> 01:26:09.060 could recognize some of the things that I did, 01:26:09.159 --> 01:26:13.539 like, you know, my people pleasing personality. 01:26:15.229 --> 01:26:17.890 uh just kind of always putting my needs on the 01:26:17.890 --> 01:26:20.270 back burner and it's you know what do you need 01:26:20.270 --> 01:26:24.350 how can i care for you um i learned some of those 01:26:24.350 --> 01:26:28.310 techniques to to kind of correct some of those 01:26:28.310 --> 01:26:32.789 things but um you know i don't think it was any 01:26:32.789 --> 01:26:37.470 one thing and i've always been a proponent for 01:26:38.279 --> 01:26:41.119 If you need to talk to somebody, talk to somebody, 01:26:41.340 --> 01:26:44.899 seek out a therapist. And I've talked to several 01:26:44.899 --> 01:26:48.439 therapists and some of them were good for me 01:26:48.439 --> 01:26:50.960 and some of them were not good for me. And so 01:26:50.960 --> 01:26:54.579 that again, and I know that you've spoken many 01:26:54.579 --> 01:26:58.659 times about finding a therapist that is familiar 01:26:58.659 --> 01:27:01.460 with your profession and all the things that 01:27:01.460 --> 01:27:06.779 you encounter in your profession to help you. 01:27:07.340 --> 01:27:16.020 with those issues and I back that 100%. So, yeah, 01:27:16.020 --> 01:27:22.800 I just, you know, maybe to your point, again, 01:27:22.960 --> 01:27:28.420 before you head into a profession, look at what 01:27:28.420 --> 01:27:33.079 you're in for and try to do some healing of your 01:27:33.079 --> 01:27:36.869 own stuff before you take that stuff. into your 01:27:36.869 --> 01:27:40.810 profession. Absolutely. Well, the other side 01:27:40.810 --> 01:27:43.449 of the conversation is the transition. And it's 01:27:43.449 --> 01:27:49.329 very, very, it seems to factor in with most people's 01:27:49.329 --> 01:27:51.270 transition when we wear a uniform, we have this 01:27:51.270 --> 01:27:53.569 tribe, we have this identity, we have this purpose. 01:27:53.930 --> 01:27:56.489 And then whatever it is, whether it's, you know, 01:27:56.510 --> 01:27:58.449 actually retiring, whether it's getting hurt, 01:27:58.529 --> 01:28:00.109 whether it's getting fired, whether it's even 01:28:00.109 --> 01:28:03.029 promoting out of a fire station to a desk somewhere. 01:28:03.890 --> 01:28:06.539 You see a lot of people struggle with that. What 01:28:06.539 --> 01:28:09.060 was your transition like from nursing where you've 01:28:09.060 --> 01:28:11.359 been this healer, you've been this, as you mentioned, 01:28:11.439 --> 01:28:14.779 even this people pleaser for so long. And then 01:28:14.779 --> 01:28:17.060 one day you walk out the hospital and your ID 01:28:17.060 --> 01:28:24.479 doesn't work anymore. It was rough. It was rough. 01:28:25.300 --> 01:28:29.100 So this, you know, sometimes I talk about divine 01:28:29.100 --> 01:28:33.989 intervention because I believe in that. Shortly 01:28:33.989 --> 01:28:37.489 after I retired, I discovered your podcast, and 01:28:37.489 --> 01:28:39.550 one of the very first episodes I listened to 01:28:39.550 --> 01:28:44.050 was Sebastian Schenker. That was a great episode, 01:28:44.149 --> 01:28:50.569 and I went and bought his book, Tribe, on homecoming 01:28:50.569 --> 01:28:54.210 and belonging, because I was really in the throes 01:28:54.210 --> 01:28:59.810 of missing my tribe, missing the teamwork, the 01:28:59.810 --> 01:29:03.880 camaraderie. Nurses would come to my desk and 01:29:03.880 --> 01:29:10.800 just sit and bullshit and talk about just the 01:29:10.800 --> 01:29:15.140 struggles that they're having, maybe in their 01:29:15.140 --> 01:29:20.020 home life or with another co -worker. And I was 01:29:20.020 --> 01:29:22.920 missing that. I got to see all the parents of 01:29:22.920 --> 01:29:26.850 the NICU every day in my job. Got to sit down 01:29:26.850 --> 01:29:28.789 and talk to them and see what their struggles 01:29:28.789 --> 01:29:33.090 were and how they were handling, you know, having 01:29:33.090 --> 01:29:36.149 a baby in the NICU. I missed all of that. I missed 01:29:36.149 --> 01:29:39.989 rounds. We would have grand rounds every day. 01:29:40.630 --> 01:29:44.369 And I missed rounds. I missed wearing scrubs, 01:29:44.449 --> 01:29:49.189 which is, that's insane. The scrubs are the worst 01:29:49.189 --> 01:29:54.829 things you can wear. I miss all of it. And this 01:29:54.829 --> 01:29:58.109 was only after a few months. The first two or 01:29:58.109 --> 01:30:00.609 three months after I retired, it was like the 01:30:00.609 --> 01:30:04.010 honeymoon period. It was like I was doing all 01:30:04.010 --> 01:30:06.550 the things that I couldn't do when I was working 01:30:06.550 --> 01:30:09.949 all day. I was baking. I learned how to make 01:30:09.949 --> 01:30:15.170 macarons. I was going to the library. I had a 01:30:15.170 --> 01:30:18.229 stack of books that I was reading. I was walking 01:30:18.229 --> 01:30:23.229 miles every day. I mean, I was just like... this 01:30:23.229 --> 01:30:26.729 is freedom and then about the third month it 01:30:26.729 --> 01:30:33.170 set in and I was like oh man uh this is bad and 01:30:33.170 --> 01:30:36.229 I kind of had prepared myself a little bit I 01:30:36.229 --> 01:30:39.029 knew about a year or so before I was going to 01:30:39.029 --> 01:30:42.189 retire and I said you know you might have trouble 01:30:42.189 --> 01:30:46.270 disconnecting from this nurse identity so I consulted 01:30:46.270 --> 01:30:48.810 a therapist to help me with that and she was 01:30:48.810 --> 01:30:53.039 very helpful with that And at that point, I had 01:30:53.039 --> 01:30:57.939 already been in the beginning preparation stages 01:30:57.939 --> 01:31:01.399 for having a podcast. And that was a whole nother 01:31:01.399 --> 01:31:05.119 thing because I had just recently become a listener. 01:31:05.180 --> 01:31:09.420 And I tell this story because it's just so ridiculous, 01:31:09.539 --> 01:31:11.539 but I think it's a nurse thing. It was like, 01:31:11.579 --> 01:31:15.079 I think I'm going to start a podcast and I'm 01:31:15.079 --> 01:31:19.420 going to talk to nurses about nursing. and like 01:31:19.420 --> 01:31:22.220 how hard could it be you know you just get a 01:31:22.220 --> 01:31:27.720 microphone and you start talking and I wasn't 01:31:27.720 --> 01:31:30.760 prepared for the learning curve so I had to learn 01:31:30.760 --> 01:31:35.340 that really quickly but that was fun and it was 01:31:35.340 --> 01:31:40.539 just a lot of introspection the Sebastian's book 01:31:40.539 --> 01:31:46.180 was really helpful because you know the tribe 01:31:46.180 --> 01:31:48.479 is really important and a lot of things we do 01:31:48.479 --> 01:31:51.199 in nursing and i know that this happens in all 01:31:51.199 --> 01:31:54.399 kind of first responder communities it's all 01:31:54.399 --> 01:31:57.220 about the trauma bonding right it's like we are 01:31:57.220 --> 01:31:59.739 bonded over all these things that we have seen 01:31:59.739 --> 01:32:06.159 and done and um you know i just was like if i'm 01:32:06.159 --> 01:32:09.979 not a nurse like what am i i have spent 36 years 01:32:09.979 --> 01:32:14.439 being a nurse 40 years at this hospital you know 01:32:14.439 --> 01:32:17.000 badging in and out of this door and that door 01:32:17.000 --> 01:32:22.079 and having authority and having um credibility 01:32:22.079 --> 01:32:25.220 i guess i could say credibility instead of authority 01:32:25.220 --> 01:32:27.220 i didn't i probably didn't have much authority 01:32:27.220 --> 01:32:30.939 that was in my own mind but i had credibility 01:32:30.939 --> 01:32:34.520 you know and and then now it's just gone and 01:32:34.520 --> 01:32:39.920 and i got a few tastes of like how we treat retired 01:32:39.920 --> 01:32:43.869 people in in our country i don't know if this 01:32:43.869 --> 01:32:45.810 happens in other parts of the world but it's 01:32:45.810 --> 01:32:50.189 just like okay you're done there's no value to 01:32:50.189 --> 01:32:56.710 you anymore and it's really sad um so yeah that 01:32:56.710 --> 01:33:01.529 that was kind of my journey and you know one 01:33:01.529 --> 01:33:03.569 of the things that sebastian talked about in 01:33:03.569 --> 01:33:06.449 his book And I know you've talked about this, 01:33:06.550 --> 01:33:09.010 too, because, again, a lot of first responders 01:33:09.010 --> 01:33:13.010 are in the CrossFit community. And I will say 01:33:13.010 --> 01:33:16.989 I was a proud member of the CrossFit community 01:33:16.989 --> 01:33:22.770 for two years from 2018 to 2020 at the start 01:33:22.770 --> 01:33:26.069 of the pandemic until our gym shut down. And 01:33:26.069 --> 01:33:30.930 then I never went back. But I had never outside 01:33:30.930 --> 01:33:33.979 of nursing. i had never experienced that tribe 01:33:33.979 --> 01:33:40.060 feeling and i absolutely loved it um i i absolutely 01:33:40.060 --> 01:33:43.100 loved it i did crossfit four to five times a 01:33:43.100 --> 01:33:48.840 week i never uh did anything strict so i never 01:33:48.840 --> 01:33:53.420 did a strict pull -up i you know i had to scale 01:33:53.420 --> 01:34:00.960 everything but it was Some of the two best years 01:34:00.960 --> 01:34:04.779 of my life because of that community so caring 01:34:04.779 --> 01:34:08.880 So motivating when you're down and you've got 01:34:08.880 --> 01:34:12.640 nothing left to give Someone is there saying 01:34:12.640 --> 01:34:17.420 you can do this. I see how strong you are You're 01:34:17.420 --> 01:34:20.340 an athlete. I had never been called an athlete 01:34:20.340 --> 01:34:24.659 in my life. I didn't do sports You know I did 01:34:24.659 --> 01:34:27.729 more creative things like i was a band geek and 01:34:27.729 --> 01:34:31.130 and stuff like that and so to be called an athlete 01:34:31.130 --> 01:34:37.470 and to be part of this tribe was just um it was 01:34:37.470 --> 01:34:40.229 it was an amazing two years of my life and i 01:34:40.229 --> 01:34:42.409 credit my sister jennifer for getting me into 01:34:42.409 --> 01:34:46.069 that um although she did trick me into it so 01:34:46.069 --> 01:34:51.329 um but it it turned out it turned out well did 01:34:51.329 --> 01:34:55.220 the gym reopen after coven the gym did reopen 01:34:55.220 --> 01:35:00.100 after covid it took a good few months and and 01:35:00.100 --> 01:35:03.000 you know i will say one of the biggest mistakes 01:35:03.000 --> 01:35:06.460 in my life was not going back at that point i 01:35:06.460 --> 01:35:10.140 was just incredibly stressed working in a hospital 01:35:10.140 --> 01:35:16.520 during coven and i probably needed crossfit more 01:35:16.520 --> 01:35:20.779 than anything during that time but i didn't go 01:35:20.779 --> 01:35:26.029 back to it and i i have regrets about that it 01:35:26.029 --> 01:35:29.789 was never too late that's what people keep telling 01:35:29.789 --> 01:35:33.869 me and i'm just like oh man i i had so many injuries 01:35:33.869 --> 01:35:39.189 in crossfit um just you know because being a 01:35:39.189 --> 01:35:43.510 you know a beginner and all that but I just loved 01:35:43.510 --> 01:35:46.609 it. My favorite was the Fran. I loved the Fran 01:35:46.609 --> 01:35:50.529 and, you know, my best PR was my deadlift was 01:35:50.529 --> 01:35:55.289 105 pounds, you know, so proud of that too. So, 01:35:55.390 --> 01:35:58.789 you know, I look back on that with just a lot 01:35:58.789 --> 01:36:01.909 of happiness and oddly I've wanted to approach. 01:36:02.439 --> 01:36:06.920 the gym owner to start like a crossfit for seniors 01:36:06.920 --> 01:36:10.479 because what do seniors need what do they start 01:36:10.479 --> 01:36:12.979 having problems with balance right they start 01:36:12.979 --> 01:36:17.060 falling they lose their community especially 01:36:17.060 --> 01:36:20.800 if they're retired so they lose their tribe and 01:36:20.800 --> 01:36:26.869 they are lonely a lot of times and You know, 01:36:26.869 --> 01:36:29.569 if I was queen for a day and I had all the money 01:36:29.569 --> 01:36:32.189 that I needed to start a senior CrossFit gym, 01:36:32.409 --> 01:36:36.529 I would do it in a heartbeat. So my gym where 01:36:36.529 --> 01:36:38.550 I train, they were CrossFit for a long time. 01:36:38.590 --> 01:36:41.289 They still do a CrossFit class. Actually, one 01:36:41.289 --> 01:36:44.789 of our main coaches now is one of the young athletes. 01:36:44.890 --> 01:36:47.130 I don't know exactly where he placed, but he 01:36:47.130 --> 01:36:49.409 was extremely good in the kind of teen divisions. 01:36:50.350 --> 01:36:54.289 um and uh but we moved to a thing called uh wolf 01:36:54.289 --> 01:36:57.069 brigade programming so it's a lot more but they're 01:36:57.069 --> 01:36:59.890 all strict movement pretty much um there's maces 01:36:59.890 --> 01:37:04.430 there's kettlebells and it's so good but it's 01:37:04.430 --> 01:37:06.010 funny what you were talking about with the community 01:37:06.010 --> 01:37:10.130 i was in a funk yesterday just jumped back in 01:37:10.130 --> 01:37:11.909 after having that horrendous flu that was going 01:37:11.909 --> 01:37:16.090 around about a month ago. And so, you know, there's 01:37:16.090 --> 01:37:17.729 always that, the older you get, you know, it 01:37:17.729 --> 01:37:19.510 hurts even more when you first start going back. 01:37:19.649 --> 01:37:22.649 And I went back and I came home and I told my 01:37:22.649 --> 01:37:25.109 wife, I was like, I feel really good. And I think 01:37:25.109 --> 01:37:27.949 it was less about the exercise and it was more 01:37:27.949 --> 01:37:30.229 about just going there and, you know, being with 01:37:30.229 --> 01:37:31.670 the friends that I've trained with for years 01:37:31.670 --> 01:37:33.590 and having that community and joking and they 01:37:33.590 --> 01:37:35.729 were playing some silly music and it was that 01:37:35.729 --> 01:37:39.989 part. just like you said the tribal yeah so getting 01:37:39.989 --> 01:37:42.590 getting the programming to be switched so there's 01:37:42.590 --> 01:37:44.750 more strict stuff because that's what you need 01:37:44.750 --> 01:37:47.609 scaled but strict as you get older you don't 01:37:47.609 --> 01:37:49.630 need to be you know ripping things off the ground 01:37:49.630 --> 01:37:51.470 and doing kipping pull -ups and those kind of 01:37:51.470 --> 01:37:54.430 things um but getting that community back so 01:37:54.430 --> 01:37:57.109 i i concur a thousand percent i think that's 01:37:57.109 --> 01:38:00.489 exactly what you should do next that might be 01:38:00.489 --> 01:38:04.479 my next big endeavor james Yeah, I just would 01:38:04.479 --> 01:38:07.119 love to see that because I'm in that community 01:38:07.119 --> 01:38:10.060 now, right? I mean, when I retired at 57, so 01:38:10.060 --> 01:38:12.680 that was an early retirement. And I feel blessed 01:38:12.680 --> 01:38:15.420 every day that I could do that financially. And 01:38:15.420 --> 01:38:20.039 now it's been, I just turned 61. And, you know, 01:38:20.079 --> 01:38:25.859 I am feeling different physically the last, you 01:38:25.859 --> 01:38:28.909 know, four years. I've done a lot of things in 01:38:28.909 --> 01:38:31.810 retirement to help me physically. I walk, you 01:38:31.810 --> 01:38:35.090 know, many miles a day. Walking is my thing. 01:38:35.350 --> 01:38:39.010 But I still am cognizant that, you know, as a 01:38:39.010 --> 01:38:42.270 postmenopausal woman, I need to be strength training. 01:38:42.449 --> 01:38:45.449 So I just recently joined my gym and I'm lifting 01:38:45.449 --> 01:38:49.069 weights. But it's not the same as CrossFit. I 01:38:49.069 --> 01:38:53.189 will always be this CrossFit fan. There's a lot 01:38:53.189 --> 01:38:59.020 to be said for it. And, yeah. If anybody out 01:38:59.020 --> 01:39:04.699 there wants to invest with me in a senior CrossFit 01:39:04.699 --> 01:39:10.579 gym, let's do it. One more area before we kind 01:39:10.579 --> 01:39:12.239 of round off with some closing questions. You 01:39:12.239 --> 01:39:15.539 touched on working during COVID. You're in this 01:39:15.539 --> 01:39:19.260 pediatric neonate environment. Without loading 01:39:19.260 --> 01:39:21.319 the question at all, what was your perspective 01:39:21.319 --> 01:39:25.500 of those years as far as the amount of issues 01:39:25.500 --> 01:39:27.800 that you saw with the patients themselves and 01:39:27.800 --> 01:39:30.279 the impact on your men and women that you work 01:39:30.279 --> 01:39:35.899 with? Yeah, thanks for talking about that. So 01:39:35.899 --> 01:39:40.359 thankfully, during COVID, we had zero babies 01:39:40.359 --> 01:39:43.819 that were infected with COVID. Now, we had many 01:39:43.819 --> 01:39:46.220 mothers that were infected with COVID, and they 01:39:46.220 --> 01:39:51.380 were quite ill. Some of this was pre -vaccine, 01:39:51.420 --> 01:39:54.319 some of this was post -vaccine. We had a lot 01:39:54.319 --> 01:39:58.600 of mothers that were very reticent, hesitant, 01:39:58.939 --> 01:40:02.140 whatever the word is, to take the vaccine while 01:40:02.140 --> 01:40:04.859 pregnant or while they were even planning to 01:40:04.859 --> 01:40:08.140 get pregnant because at that time there wasn't 01:40:08.140 --> 01:40:12.859 a lot of research. And so we had a lot of moms 01:40:12.859 --> 01:40:16.390 that were going into labor early. because they 01:40:16.390 --> 01:40:19.829 had such severe COVID disease. We lost a lot 01:40:19.829 --> 01:40:23.010 of moms to COVID. So we had a lot of premature 01:40:23.010 --> 01:40:26.670 babies. Moms went to the ICU. They came in with 01:40:26.670 --> 01:40:29.770 like pneumonia. They came in with sepsis. They 01:40:29.770 --> 01:40:33.609 were very, very sick. And again, as we spoke 01:40:33.609 --> 01:40:35.930 earlier, they had a lot of comorbidities. So 01:40:35.930 --> 01:40:39.689 a lot of these moms were older. They had type 01:40:39.689 --> 01:40:45.710 2 diabetes. They were obese. So all these comorbidities. 01:40:46.149 --> 01:40:49.090 And they landed in the ICU and they were put 01:40:49.090 --> 01:40:51.689 on ventilators, very, very sick. Their babies 01:40:51.689 --> 01:40:55.449 were delivered very, very early. So 25, 26 weeks. 01:40:55.670 --> 01:40:59.770 These moms stayed in the ICU for months and ultimately 01:40:59.770 --> 01:41:04.770 died, never got to meet their babies. So being 01:41:04.770 --> 01:41:08.149 a nurse, seeing these families, you know, ripped 01:41:08.149 --> 01:41:14.279 apart, it was devastating. So we didn't have 01:41:14.279 --> 01:41:17.000 any babies that had COVID, but their families 01:41:17.000 --> 01:41:22.159 definitely suffered. I'll say the nurses suffered 01:41:22.159 --> 01:41:26.399 in terms of staffing during COVID, of course, 01:41:26.399 --> 01:41:31.380 was very crazy because all resources were going 01:41:31.380 --> 01:41:36.020 to the units that had COVID patients, which were 01:41:36.020 --> 01:41:41.380 many. So our nurses, if we weren't If our census 01:41:41.380 --> 01:41:44.899 was down in the NICU, they had to go to other 01:41:44.899 --> 01:41:48.119 departments and actually take care of patients 01:41:48.119 --> 01:41:52.460 with COVID. And this was a stretch for many of 01:41:52.460 --> 01:41:56.939 our nurses in the NICU because nurses that go 01:41:56.939 --> 01:41:59.840 into NICU nursing, they make it a career. They 01:41:59.840 --> 01:42:03.640 don't usually leave. So they really had not taken 01:42:03.640 --> 01:42:08.739 care of adults. and adults with such severe disease. 01:42:08.960 --> 01:42:11.039 So many of our nurses ended up getting COVID 01:42:11.039 --> 01:42:15.840 and being out with COVID. So it impacted our 01:42:15.840 --> 01:42:22.340 staffing dramatically. Politically, what happened 01:42:22.340 --> 01:42:27.520 pre -vaccine, so when COVID was first making 01:42:27.520 --> 01:42:31.869 its debut, And I know that you've talked about 01:42:31.869 --> 01:42:34.989 this because it happened in the firefighting 01:42:34.989 --> 01:42:38.630 community as well. Nurses were hailed as heroes. 01:42:39.170 --> 01:42:42.869 We had the banners outside of our hospital. Thank 01:42:42.869 --> 01:42:47.029 you, heroes. It was crazy, James. We were getting 01:42:47.029 --> 01:42:52.270 sent gifts. We're arriving on our unit. Food. 01:42:52.409 --> 01:42:55.970 We were getting sent food by organizations, by 01:42:55.970 --> 01:43:02.619 restaurants in our community. It was kids in 01:43:02.619 --> 01:43:06.699 schools were writing us letters. And I always 01:43:06.699 --> 01:43:09.199 say nurses don't do it for the applause because 01:43:09.199 --> 01:43:12.739 we don't. And neither do really any first responders 01:43:12.739 --> 01:43:16.600 do it for the applause. But for the first time 01:43:16.600 --> 01:43:21.460 in our careers, we were getting a lot of applause. 01:43:21.859 --> 01:43:26.300 And it felt good. I can't lie. It felt good. 01:43:27.119 --> 01:43:31.359 Well, then the vaccine came. And there was so 01:43:31.359 --> 01:43:35.020 much controversy. It split just like it split 01:43:35.020 --> 01:43:39.340 so many families. It split so many nurses, so 01:43:39.340 --> 01:43:42.479 many doctors. We had one side that was saying, 01:43:42.640 --> 01:43:46.020 get the vaccine. It's completely safe. The other 01:43:46.020 --> 01:43:50.220 side was, you know, this is a conspiracy to kill 01:43:50.220 --> 01:43:54.060 us all and don't get it. And then we had nurses 01:43:54.060 --> 01:43:57.920 that were. refusing to get the vaccine and were 01:43:57.920 --> 01:44:00.220 being fired. We had nurses that were leaving 01:44:00.220 --> 01:44:03.340 to work in other institutions that weren't requiring 01:44:03.340 --> 01:44:08.600 nurses to have vaccines. So after having this 01:44:08.600 --> 01:44:12.760 really high point where the community was rallying 01:44:12.760 --> 01:44:17.199 around us and thanking us for our care and then 01:44:17.199 --> 01:44:26.430 immediately to dive into this just divisive community 01:44:26.430 --> 01:44:29.609 where, you know, everybody on social media was 01:44:29.609 --> 01:44:32.270 like, oh, the hospital is doing this and the 01:44:32.270 --> 01:44:34.689 hospital's lying about their COVID numbers to 01:44:34.689 --> 01:44:38.789 get more money. And meanwhile, the nurses on 01:44:38.789 --> 01:44:41.189 the ground, the boots on the ground that are 01:44:41.189 --> 01:44:44.350 caring for the patients are going home with, 01:44:44.430 --> 01:44:47.970 you know, complete moral distress because they're 01:44:47.970 --> 01:44:51.069 having to cut corners and they're worried about 01:44:51.069 --> 01:44:54.890 their. patients dying. They're worried about 01:44:54.890 --> 01:45:00.130 infecting their own families with COVID. My siblings 01:45:00.130 --> 01:45:04.609 and I were caring for my 85 -year -old mom, who 01:45:04.609 --> 01:45:08.109 was, what, 82 at the time during COVID and had 01:45:08.109 --> 01:45:11.329 some comorbidities. We didn't want to even go 01:45:11.329 --> 01:45:14.350 visit her because we were afraid of her dying 01:45:14.350 --> 01:45:21.119 from COVID. It was brutal. It was brutal. And 01:45:21.119 --> 01:45:24.100 after talking to so many nurses now, a lot of 01:45:24.100 --> 01:45:26.939 nurses left after COVID. And I will say that 01:45:26.939 --> 01:45:32.819 that was a mitigating factor in my retiring from 01:45:32.819 --> 01:45:38.319 nursing. After COVID, it was just like, oh, my 01:45:38.319 --> 01:45:41.279 God, I can't believe, you know, I made it through 01:45:41.279 --> 01:45:48.119 that. Yeah, it was brutal. Well, this is what's 01:45:48.119 --> 01:45:51.439 so important is hearing everyone that was, you 01:45:51.439 --> 01:45:52.819 know, boots on the ground, because by that point 01:45:52.819 --> 01:45:55.020 I was out the fire service. So I was watching 01:45:55.020 --> 01:45:57.039 these guys, you know, get off the rig, covered 01:45:57.039 --> 01:45:59.979 head to toe in full PPE. And, you know, only 01:45:59.979 --> 01:46:01.960 one person going in and, you know, all these 01:46:01.960 --> 01:46:04.800 different precautions. But what was so sad is 01:46:04.800 --> 01:46:06.600 you talked about it perfectly. I mean, like you 01:46:06.600 --> 01:46:09.859 had these two extremes and the middle. common 01:46:09.859 --> 01:46:13.340 sense voice was absent it was completely politicized 01:46:13.340 --> 01:46:16.899 at the expense of the people who died the first 01:46:16.899 --> 01:46:19.380 responders the medical professionals and what 01:46:19.380 --> 01:46:22.760 really angers me is after the fact it was very 01:46:22.760 --> 01:46:24.199 much like well we don't want to talk about it 01:46:24.199 --> 01:46:27.260 now it's like whoa time out now is the time that 01:46:27.260 --> 01:46:29.579 we do need to talk about it what are the lessons 01:46:29.579 --> 01:46:31.420 that we've learned what should we do differently 01:46:31.420 --> 01:46:34.359 next time and you know going back to what we've 01:46:34.359 --> 01:46:36.850 talked about already What are you going to do 01:46:36.850 --> 01:46:39.069 about all these, you know, these issues, these 01:46:39.069 --> 01:46:41.569 health issues that the country is continuing 01:46:41.569 --> 01:46:44.550 to suffer from? Because this next virus, whatever 01:46:44.550 --> 01:46:47.010 you call it, is going to sweep through and we're 01:46:47.010 --> 01:46:49.109 going to have the same exact thing. Why are you 01:46:49.109 --> 01:46:52.270 not bending over backwards now to bolster, you 01:46:52.270 --> 01:46:54.390 know, the health care professions, bolster the 01:46:54.390 --> 01:46:57.470 first responder professions and initiate programs 01:46:57.470 --> 01:47:01.029 that make, if not our children, you know, I mean. 01:47:01.529 --> 01:47:04.310 At least our children, if not the adults as well, 01:47:04.350 --> 01:47:06.930 start turning the corner on this. But none of 01:47:06.930 --> 01:47:08.850 that happened. And it was, again, both sides 01:47:08.850 --> 01:47:12.069 of the aisle. And it just infuriates me as everyone 01:47:12.069 --> 01:47:14.590 was up in arms about these deaths. And now it's 01:47:14.590 --> 01:47:17.449 like, well, you just don't care anymore. And 01:47:17.449 --> 01:47:20.840 all these people that put their necks out. Some 01:47:20.840 --> 01:47:22.760 of whom aren't with us anymore because they were 01:47:22.760 --> 01:47:25.439 overworked and sleep deprived and our nurses 01:47:25.439 --> 01:47:28.119 and doctors and paramedics and police officers 01:47:28.119 --> 01:47:30.979 were so vulnerable because of the way they were 01:47:30.979 --> 01:47:33.560 work that we lost a lot of them. So I think it's 01:47:33.560 --> 01:47:36.680 so important to hear testimonies like yours to 01:47:36.680 --> 01:47:39.100 honor the people that we lost, the patients and 01:47:39.100 --> 01:47:42.380 the people helping them. Yeah, we lost so many 01:47:42.380 --> 01:47:48.319 nurses, physicians, so many people. And you're 01:47:48.319 --> 01:47:51.399 absolutely right. After it was all said and done, 01:47:51.539 --> 01:47:56.619 there were crickets chirping. And man, I'm so 01:47:56.619 --> 01:48:02.239 glad that I'm not going to be there for the next 01:48:02.239 --> 01:48:06.479 thing that happens. But I am so worried about 01:48:06.479 --> 01:48:10.119 my nursing colleagues, my physician colleagues 01:48:10.119 --> 01:48:14.720 that are going to have to handle this. Absolutely. 01:48:15.479 --> 01:48:18.020 All right. Well, you mentioned Sebastian Junger's 01:48:18.020 --> 01:48:20.359 tribe. First of the closing questions. Are there 01:48:20.359 --> 01:48:24.920 any other books that you love to recommend? Yes, 01:48:25.039 --> 01:48:28.920 I am a big reader and I recommend anything by 01:48:28.920 --> 01:48:32.260 Ryan Holiday. Have you had Ryan on the podcast? 01:48:32.739 --> 01:48:35.100 I have not. And I need to. I mean, he's been 01:48:35.100 --> 01:48:39.640 so many times, even even Josh Brolin, who I was 01:48:39.640 --> 01:48:41.140 talking to not long ago. I'm not trying to name 01:48:41.140 --> 01:48:42.659 drop, but he's been on the show a couple of times 01:48:42.659 --> 01:48:46.880 now. He absolutely loves The Daily Stoic. So 01:48:46.880 --> 01:48:48.619 I know that, you know, there's so many people 01:48:48.619 --> 01:48:50.840 that are impacted by Ryan's work. I need to get 01:48:50.840 --> 01:48:53.739 him on the show. Yes, I've actually read The 01:48:53.739 --> 01:48:56.760 Daily Stoic. Ego is the enemy. The obstacle is 01:48:56.760 --> 01:49:00.260 the way. Discipline is destiny. Courage is calling. 01:49:00.979 --> 01:49:03.260 I've read all of his books, including The Daily 01:49:03.260 --> 01:49:07.960 Dad, and I get his Daily Dad newsletter. Highly 01:49:07.960 --> 01:49:11.020 recommend it. People may wonder, why is this? 01:49:11.619 --> 01:49:14.560 61 year old woman getting the daily dad newsletter 01:49:14.560 --> 01:49:17.800 and i will say it has made me a better grandparent 01:49:17.800 --> 01:49:23.680 you know i have a daughter she's 38 and you have 01:49:23.680 --> 01:49:27.880 one chance right uh who said that one shot you 01:49:27.880 --> 01:49:32.000 have one shot eminem it's a great song but um 01:49:32.000 --> 01:49:36.119 with all the stuff that you know i brought as 01:49:36.119 --> 01:49:41.460 a parent from my childhood you know She's a great 01:49:41.460 --> 01:49:44.460 person. She turned out great despite me. But 01:49:44.460 --> 01:49:48.260 now my grandkids, I get to see it from a different 01:49:48.260 --> 01:49:52.380 perspective. And it's beautiful. And so I highly 01:49:52.380 --> 01:49:55.479 recommend The Daily Dad really for anybody. Grandparents, 01:49:55.520 --> 01:50:00.260 parents, it's awesome. And then the other author 01:50:00.260 --> 01:50:04.300 that I love is Austin Kleon. He's an author and 01:50:04.300 --> 01:50:08.779 an artist out of Austin, Texas. he's a creative 01:50:08.779 --> 01:50:12.739 i love his books um steal like an artist and 01:50:12.739 --> 01:50:17.619 show your work and i think steel like an artist 01:50:17.619 --> 01:50:20.000 really resonates with me as far as with what 01:50:20.000 --> 01:50:23.119 you do james and you know he's always saying 01:50:23.119 --> 01:50:26.119 like um and and we talked about this through 01:50:26.119 --> 01:50:28.760 instagram because i was wanting to learn how 01:50:28.760 --> 01:50:32.079 to repost and you post all this great content 01:50:32.079 --> 01:50:37.420 that is just it's all about kindness and caring 01:50:37.420 --> 01:50:43.539 and humanity and um and and i just love it and 01:50:43.539 --> 01:50:45.840 you do those reposts and that's kind of like 01:50:45.840 --> 01:50:48.159 steel like an artist you're you're observing 01:50:48.159 --> 01:50:50.359 other people's work and you love it and you want 01:50:50.359 --> 01:50:53.000 to show it off and you're giving credit to that 01:50:53.000 --> 01:50:56.760 other artist and then show your work is great 01:50:56.760 --> 01:51:02.159 because what we do especially in podcasting That's 01:51:02.159 --> 01:51:04.800 something that we should be proud of and we should 01:51:04.800 --> 01:51:07.260 talk about it and we should always give credit 01:51:07.260 --> 01:51:10.640 where it's due. So those two books I highly recommend 01:51:10.640 --> 01:51:15.699 as well. Brilliant. What about films and or documentaries? 01:51:18.670 --> 01:51:22.550 so films um i'm not i don't watch a lot of movies 01:51:22.550 --> 01:51:26.390 but i will recommend one that i saw that came 01:51:26.390 --> 01:51:30.470 out in i want to say 2004 2005 and it's called 01:51:30.470 --> 01:51:36.989 crash and i loved crash for so many reasons but 01:51:36.989 --> 01:51:42.180 um So Crash tells the story, all these different 01:51:42.180 --> 01:51:44.319 stories of people living in Los Angeles. And 01:51:44.319 --> 01:51:47.520 the only actor that I can remember is Sandra 01:51:47.520 --> 01:51:50.720 Bullock. The other ones, I see their faces, but 01:51:50.720 --> 01:51:53.279 I can't really remember who they are. But it 01:51:53.279 --> 01:51:56.220 was so good. There was like this good cop, bad 01:51:56.220 --> 01:52:00.300 cop. There was what it's like to be a black man 01:52:00.300 --> 01:52:05.100 in Los Angeles. There was sexual assault. In 01:52:05.100 --> 01:52:07.319 the beginning, you didn't see how all these people 01:52:07.319 --> 01:52:10.640 were connected, but then all the dots started 01:52:10.640 --> 01:52:13.819 to connect, and I thought it was just really 01:52:13.819 --> 01:52:17.000 brilliantly done, and I loved it. And it just 01:52:17.000 --> 01:52:21.640 shows how we are all connected. So I love that 01:52:21.640 --> 01:52:25.779 one. Documentaries, anything in the Blue Planet 01:52:25.779 --> 01:52:32.319 series, anything having to do with nature. I 01:52:32.319 --> 01:52:36.359 love any nature documentary. My sister actually 01:52:36.359 --> 01:52:39.140 edits for the BBC a lot of times. She's worked 01:52:39.140 --> 01:52:40.720 with Dave Attenborough and some other ones. So 01:52:40.720 --> 01:52:42.840 you've probably seen some of her work. I was 01:52:42.840 --> 01:52:46.039 going to say anything narrated by Dave Attenborough 01:52:46.039 --> 01:52:50.680 because I am a sucker for a British accent, James. 01:52:52.359 --> 01:52:55.300 Complete sucker. Well, it's funny you mentioned 01:52:55.300 --> 01:52:57.859 Crash too because that I will give credit to. 01:52:57.979 --> 01:53:00.460 That is absolutely one of the inspirations for 01:53:00.460 --> 01:53:05.060 Kinder. And the reason being, he does such a 01:53:05.060 --> 01:53:08.619 beautiful job of making the viewer think a certain 01:53:08.619 --> 01:53:11.239 way at the beginning. And then at the end, you're 01:53:11.239 --> 01:53:13.640 like, oh my God, like they've turned everything 01:53:13.640 --> 01:53:16.600 on its head. And I didn't try to write a firefighter's 01:53:16.600 --> 01:53:19.159 crash by any means, but it was that same thing. 01:53:19.239 --> 01:53:21.340 It's like, start off with the way people think 01:53:21.340 --> 01:53:24.119 and then lead them down a journey. And then at 01:53:24.119 --> 01:53:26.899 the end, see if they question the way they've 01:53:26.899 --> 01:53:29.779 been indoctrinated to think by that point. And 01:53:29.779 --> 01:53:32.829 it goes back to the bum. Is it still a bum by 01:53:32.829 --> 01:53:34.869 the time you finish with that book? Or are you 01:53:34.869 --> 01:53:37.229 looking at the person who had an experience that 01:53:37.229 --> 01:53:40.649 sent them down that spiral? Yes, I totally see 01:53:40.649 --> 01:53:44.569 that now in Kinder. And you're right. It's like 01:53:44.569 --> 01:53:49.649 we start with, we just get this view of how we 01:53:49.649 --> 01:53:52.890 think this person is. We're so quick to judge, 01:53:53.069 --> 01:53:57.390 right? We're so quick to try to figure out who 01:53:57.390 --> 01:54:00.390 this person is. And I don't know if that. happens 01:54:00.390 --> 01:54:03.590 in the lay community but definitely in the nursing 01:54:03.590 --> 01:54:06.569 and first responder community we have to be really 01:54:06.569 --> 01:54:11.329 quick to assess the situation and we tend to 01:54:11.329 --> 01:54:14.289 do that a lot and we tend to end up wrong in 01:54:14.289 --> 01:54:17.930 many cases right because we really have to delve 01:54:17.930 --> 01:54:22.470 into there's more just behind what i'm seeing 01:54:22.470 --> 01:54:29.050 or what i'm hearing you know there's yeah Great, 01:54:29.109 --> 01:54:32.189 great film and great book too. And I'm so glad 01:54:32.189 --> 01:54:35.369 that your book is going to make it to film. I 01:54:35.369 --> 01:54:38.310 can't wait. I'm so thrilled for you. Yeah. I 01:54:38.310 --> 01:54:39.630 don't know how it's going to get there. Lots 01:54:39.630 --> 01:54:41.689 and lots of seeds planted. So we're going to 01:54:41.689 --> 01:54:43.930 navigate a journey, but it's kind of exciting 01:54:43.930 --> 01:54:46.590 to see, you know, which way it goes, who ends 01:54:46.590 --> 01:54:49.359 up being behind this. I won't put it out there 01:54:49.359 --> 01:54:51.119 yet because this person hasn't even been approached, 01:54:51.220 --> 01:54:53.100 but there's people that have written some of 01:54:53.100 --> 01:54:55.439 the most beautiful or directed some of the most 01:54:55.439 --> 01:54:57.399 beautiful films and written the most beautiful 01:54:57.399 --> 01:55:00.739 screenplays that are on the radar. So to me, 01:55:00.739 --> 01:55:03.659 it's got to be a humanist that gets it, that 01:55:03.659 --> 01:55:08.060 wants to change. But even Crash, I've got a friend 01:55:08.060 --> 01:55:10.539 who is good friends with the guy that made Crash. 01:55:10.720 --> 01:55:13.680 So we'll see. We shall see. Oh my gosh, that's 01:55:13.680 --> 01:55:15.779 awesome. All right. Well, then the next pair 01:55:15.779 --> 01:55:18.119 of questions, speaking of... great people. Is 01:55:18.119 --> 01:55:20.119 there a person that you'd recommend to come on 01:55:20.119 --> 01:55:25.180 this podcast as a guest? Yes. And I have to give 01:55:25.180 --> 01:55:28.420 a quick backstory here. So you know this, James, 01:55:28.520 --> 01:55:32.539 but I always admired that you ask people for 01:55:32.539 --> 01:55:34.420 their guest recommendations, because I think 01:55:34.420 --> 01:55:37.039 you have found so many great guests by doing 01:55:37.039 --> 01:55:40.039 that. And so I reached out to you because I really 01:55:40.039 --> 01:55:42.720 wanted to do that. And I reached out to you and 01:55:42.720 --> 01:55:45.720 I said, James, I really love that you asked this. 01:55:46.670 --> 01:55:50.149 I want to ask it too. How do you feel about it? 01:55:51.210 --> 01:55:55.270 And I'm laughing because your response was just 01:55:55.270 --> 01:55:59.250 so, like, matter of fact, you're like, yeah, 01:55:59.310 --> 01:56:02.229 go for it. Like, I'm not the first person that's 01:56:02.229 --> 01:56:04.729 done this. Like, you can ask anything you want. 01:56:05.090 --> 01:56:09.329 But I wanted to give it respect in so far as, 01:56:09.350 --> 01:56:14.869 like, not be, like, plagiarism, right? So, yes, 01:56:14.930 --> 01:56:18.810 I do have a guest recommendation. And this person 01:56:18.810 --> 01:56:22.869 is my sister, Jennifer Caposella. And so you 01:56:22.869 --> 01:56:24.810 might think I'm biased. Of course, I love my 01:56:24.810 --> 01:56:29.109 sister. But I also see who she is as a person 01:56:29.109 --> 01:56:33.229 and what she's accomplished as a nurse. And I'm 01:56:33.229 --> 01:56:37.090 just in awe of her every day. So Jennifer and 01:56:37.090 --> 01:56:43.500 I are 11 years apart. I'm her senior. she has 01:56:43.500 --> 01:56:50.039 just grown into this compassionate leader Jennifer 01:56:50.039 --> 01:56:55.140 will do anything for anybody at any time no questions 01:56:55.140 --> 01:57:01.399 asked and that's family friends employees fellow 01:57:01.399 --> 01:57:05.779 nurses she is just like one of those people that 01:57:05.779 --> 01:57:09.340 would give you the shirt off her back she is 01:57:10.720 --> 01:57:13.680 So professionally, long time labor and delivery 01:57:13.680 --> 01:57:16.859 nurse. And I learned how to be a better nurse 01:57:16.859 --> 01:57:22.260 by watching and listening to my sister. She then 01:57:22.260 --> 01:57:24.600 she would always get the sickest patients on 01:57:24.600 --> 01:57:28.060 the unit and they would often have to go to the 01:57:28.060 --> 01:57:30.699 intensive care unit. So she would go with them. 01:57:30.859 --> 01:57:33.239 And then she came to love the intensive care 01:57:33.239 --> 01:57:37.800 unit. So she became an intensive care nurse and 01:57:37.800 --> 01:57:42.170 was absolutely fantastic at it. And then she 01:57:42.170 --> 01:57:44.970 went into flight nursing, so longtime flight 01:57:44.970 --> 01:57:48.649 nurse. And her journey didn't stop there. She 01:57:48.649 --> 01:57:51.529 became the program director for Northern California 01:57:51.529 --> 01:57:57.010 for a company called Reach, which is under Global 01:57:57.010 --> 01:58:00.609 Medical Response, GMR. And I have to say, I love 01:58:00.609 --> 01:58:03.130 your interview of the two gentlemen from GMR 01:58:03.130 --> 01:58:05.770 that talked about nurse navigation. That was 01:58:05.770 --> 01:58:09.090 absolutely fantastic. But Jennifer is part of 01:58:09.090 --> 01:58:14.369 that company. And she she just what she's accomplished 01:58:14.369 --> 01:58:20.270 in her 49 years is amazing. She's a private pilot. 01:58:20.590 --> 01:58:24.010 And I for somebody who has a fear of flying, 01:58:24.229 --> 01:58:27.409 man, I just give her all kinds of respect. She's 01:58:27.409 --> 01:58:33.029 been a longtime CrossFit participant. Like I 01:58:33.029 --> 01:58:35.710 said earlier, she got me into CrossFit. She tricked 01:58:35.710 --> 01:58:42.189 me into it. But she's great. She has three kids. 01:58:42.289 --> 01:58:45.130 She has three grandkids who she absolutely adores. 01:58:45.270 --> 01:58:49.210 And she has many, many stories to tell. She's 01:58:49.210 --> 01:58:51.649 just a great person. And I'm sure she'd be a 01:58:51.649 --> 01:58:55.010 wonderful guest for you. Beautiful. Well, I would 01:58:55.010 --> 01:58:56.649 love to get her on if you're able to help make 01:58:56.649 --> 01:59:00.510 that happen. Yes, I will. And going back to asking 01:59:00.510 --> 01:59:02.930 permission for that closing question, I think 01:59:02.930 --> 01:59:06.029 I remember saying, people ask about other things. 01:59:06.069 --> 01:59:09.010 I didn't invent the English language. they say 01:59:09.010 --> 01:59:10.630 there's no such thing as an original thought 01:59:10.630 --> 01:59:13.850 so going back to crediting the artist I mean 01:59:13.850 --> 01:59:16.050 I think this is this is it this is this beautiful 01:59:16.050 --> 01:59:18.989 ripple effect of you know one person does something 01:59:18.989 --> 01:59:20.810 like oh that's a good idea let me do that too 01:59:20.810 --> 01:59:23.869 and I've had people you know firefighters say 01:59:23.869 --> 01:59:25.550 the same kind of thing like oh I'm thinking of 01:59:25.550 --> 01:59:27.250 starting a podcast but I don't want to tread 01:59:27.250 --> 01:59:29.710 on your toes I'm like I didn't invent podcasting 01:59:29.710 --> 01:59:32.369 and I'm not the only firefighter like go for 01:59:32.369 --> 01:59:34.850 it we need as many voices as we can get out there 01:59:34.850 --> 01:59:38.239 so that you know someone who listens to me and 01:59:38.239 --> 01:59:40.100 it's like nails on a chalkboard maybe you're 01:59:40.100 --> 01:59:41.439 the one that they'll want to listen to instead 01:59:41.439 --> 01:59:45.600 so you know but but I I was touched by it because 01:59:45.600 --> 01:59:47.600 of the fact that it was that respect thing even 01:59:47.600 --> 01:59:49.920 though you know the response was obviously like 01:59:49.920 --> 01:59:52.180 absolutely you know I don't know how I came up 01:59:52.180 --> 01:59:54.600 with that particular thing but I'm sure it was 01:59:54.600 --> 01:59:57.060 from listening to someone else and this is the 01:59:57.060 --> 01:59:59.039 you know the domino effect in a positive way 01:59:59.039 --> 02:00:03.520 well I love it and I loved your um just your 02:00:03.520 --> 02:00:08.489 humility like wow go for it you know i don't 02:00:08.489 --> 02:00:13.630 own that phrase so absolutely well the very last 02:00:13.630 --> 02:00:15.329 question before we make sure where everyone can 02:00:15.329 --> 02:00:18.750 find your podcast the conversing nurse and anywhere 02:00:18.750 --> 02:00:23.729 else what do you do to decompress we talked about 02:00:23.729 --> 02:00:26.770 this a little bit earlier in all my walking and 02:00:26.770 --> 02:00:30.270 i found a latin phrase because i love latin by 02:00:30.270 --> 02:00:34.390 the way i'm a huge fan of latin And I guess that's 02:00:34.390 --> 02:00:36.390 why I love Ryan Holiday so much, because he's 02:00:36.390 --> 02:00:39.189 always quoting the ancient Stoics and Latin phrases, 02:00:39.270 --> 02:00:41.770 memento mori and all that stuff. But there's 02:00:41.770 --> 02:00:44.569 a Latin phrase called solvator ambulando. It 02:00:44.569 --> 02:00:48.250 is solved by walking. And I can tell you that 02:00:48.250 --> 02:00:55.770 I have solved so many questions, conflicts, just 02:00:55.770 --> 02:00:59.390 by getting out of my head and going for a walk. 02:01:00.430 --> 02:01:04.090 um it's therapeutic i absolutely love walking 02:01:04.090 --> 02:01:09.909 in the spring in the fall sometimes in the winter 02:01:09.909 --> 02:01:12.390 our winters are kind of mild definitely not in 02:01:12.390 --> 02:01:14.989 the summer i have to go to the gym and walk which 02:01:14.989 --> 02:01:17.529 i don't love walking at the gym but i still do 02:01:17.529 --> 02:01:21.909 it because it it just when you're doing something 02:01:21.909 --> 02:01:26.069 with your body or your hands it takes your mind 02:01:26.069 --> 02:01:31.610 offline and then all of a sudden these answers 02:01:31.610 --> 02:01:34.829 just start coming to you and it's a beautiful 02:01:34.829 --> 02:01:38.930 thing. So that's what I do. I couldn't agree 02:01:38.930 --> 02:01:41.010 more. I think I've said this a few times on here. 02:01:41.069 --> 02:01:43.109 When I walk my dog, I leave my phone at home, 02:01:43.170 --> 02:01:45.170 which in itself doesn't sound like some grand 02:01:45.170 --> 02:01:48.789 gesture, but in this, you know, engaged technological 02:01:48.789 --> 02:01:52.189 world that we're in just once or twice a day, 02:01:52.310 --> 02:01:54.930 you know, 30 minutes being off where it's just 02:01:54.930 --> 02:01:57.270 me and my thoughts, a hundred percent, something 02:01:57.270 --> 02:01:59.430 will hit me and I'll be like, Oh. Where did that 02:01:59.430 --> 02:02:02.369 come from? That will be part of whatever project 02:02:02.369 --> 02:02:04.869 I'm working on. Or like you said, something you've 02:02:04.869 --> 02:02:07.149 been worrying about, you go for a walk and you 02:02:07.149 --> 02:02:08.550 come back and you're like, well, wait a second, 02:02:08.649 --> 02:02:11.529 the obvious answer is right here. So I think 02:02:11.529 --> 02:02:16.329 the white noise of modern 2025 living is so detrimental 02:02:16.329 --> 02:02:19.670 to just that quiet moment where your brain can 02:02:19.670 --> 02:02:23.029 process a problem and say, oh, this is the obvious 02:02:23.029 --> 02:02:26.010 answer. So yeah, just side note, I couldn't agree 02:02:26.010 --> 02:02:28.310 more with simply walking without any device. 02:02:30.640 --> 02:02:33.239 All right. Well, then for people listening, the 02:02:33.239 --> 02:02:35.899 podcast is The Conversing Nurse. Where can they 02:02:35.899 --> 02:02:38.039 find that? And then are there any other places 02:02:38.039 --> 02:02:40.439 online or social media they can reach out to 02:02:40.439 --> 02:02:45.520 you? Yes, thank you. So I'm on Instagram at The 02:02:45.520 --> 02:02:49.560 Conversing Nurse Podcast. I am on LinkedIn. If 02:02:49.560 --> 02:02:51.859 you just search Michelle Harris, you'll find 02:02:51.859 --> 02:02:55.380 me there. LinkedIn is a great platform for meeting 02:02:55.380 --> 02:03:02.100 all kinds of people. I have a website, theconversingnursepodcast 02:03:02.100 --> 02:03:07.960 .com. And my email is theconversingnursepodcast 02:03:07.960 --> 02:03:12.460 at gmail .com. And my podcast can be found on 02:03:12.460 --> 02:03:17.979 all listening platforms. So take a listen. Brilliant. 02:03:18.430 --> 02:03:19.989 Well, I want to thank you so much. It's been 02:03:19.989 --> 02:03:22.609 such an amazing conversation. You and I have 02:03:22.609 --> 02:03:24.350 gone back and forth now on social media for a 02:03:24.350 --> 02:03:27.270 while, but all the different layers to your story 02:03:27.270 --> 02:03:29.850 from the pediatric and neonate, the COVID, the 02:03:29.850 --> 02:03:32.109 health of your profession, the health of the 02:03:32.109 --> 02:03:35.029 nation, it's been such an important conversation. 02:03:35.270 --> 02:03:37.189 So I want to thank you so, so much for being 02:03:37.189 --> 02:03:39.529 so generous with your time and coming on the 02:03:39.529 --> 02:03:42.949 Behind the Shield podcast today. Thank you, James. 02:03:43.229 --> 02:03:45.489 And I just have to say thank you for everything 02:03:45.489 --> 02:03:50.050 you're doing for your community. And it is far 02:03:50.050 --> 02:03:53.430 reaching. It has not just stayed within your 02:03:53.430 --> 02:03:56.270 community. It has obviously reached my nursing 02:03:56.270 --> 02:03:58.569 community. It's given me a different perspective, 02:03:58.869 --> 02:04:02.310 a different lens to look through. And your work 02:04:02.310 --> 02:04:06.229 is so valuable. I cherish it. And I cherish you. 02:04:06.350 --> 02:04:08.130 And thank you for having me on.