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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you
think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome
to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,
my name is James Gearing and this week it is
my absolute honor to welcome on the show veteran
nurse and the woman behind the Conversing Nurse
podcast, Michelle Harris. Now in this conversation,
we discuss a host of topics from her journey
into the world of nursing, pediatrics, neonatal
nursing, infant mortality, mental health in her
profession, and so much more. Now, before we
get to this incredible conversation, as I say
every week, please just take a moment, go to
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is that you help share these incredible men and
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person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.
So with that being said, I introduce to you,
Michelle. Harris. Enjoy. Well, Michelle, I want
to start by saying Two things. I think it might
have been Didi Finder that kind of brought us
two together. So I want to thank him for that.
And secondly, I want to welcome you onto the
Behind the Shield podcast today. Thank you, James.
It's a thrill and an honor to be here. I appreciate
you having me on. And yes, Didi Finder is an
awesome individual and introduced us. Brilliant.
So where on planet Earth are we finding you this
afternoon? So I'm in central California, a town
called Visalia, and we have about 160 ,000 residents
here. It's an agricultural community. So we're
surrounded by fruit trees and nuts and dairies
and cattle, all kinds of things. We are very
central to everything, as I said. The Pacific
Ocean, we're about three hours away. Los Angeles,
the same. San Francisco, the same. Yosemite,
a couple hours. The Sequoias, a couple hours.
So it's just the sweet spot of California, I
think. Are you near Kings County? Yes. So Kings
County is just about 20 miles to the west of
us. I think I was literally just where you live.
A few weeks ago, I went to help a friend who's
temporarily the Kings County Fire Chief. And
we had a conference in one of the Indian Reservation
casinos that's right in your area. Yep. It was
probably in Lemoore, California. Yeah. So, yeah,
I literally know what you're talking about. And
it was beautiful. Oh, my gosh, James. I wish
I knew you were here. I would have driven over
to see you. It was a whirlwind visit. Yeah. Okay,
so I would love to start at the very beginning
of your timeline. So tell me where you were born
and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic,
what your parents did, how many siblings. I was
born in Reno, Nevada, and then we moved here
when I was five. So I've lived in Visalia for
56 years, if I do the math. I am the third child
of eight children in our family. And I always
say number three is the place to be. Our family
dynamic, very interesting. So my father was a
salesman repairman for National Cash Register
Company. And I can't believe that he made a lot
of money. but we never seemed to lack anything.
You know, we had our three meals a day. We had
our little tract house here in Visalia. We had
a swimming pool. And then I had my seven siblings.
So five brothers and two sisters. That's a lot
of math to do. Was your mom a stay -at -home
mom with that many children? My mom was a stay
-at -home mom, yes. It'd be interesting to hear
your dad's take on the trajectory of his profession,
because here we are now, and certainly after
COVID, cash is almost like a dirty thing these
days, but that was his bread and butter back
then. Yes, this was obviously long before days
of any kind of technology. And my dad, my dad...
let's see trying to unpack my dad here um so
my dad was in he was a survival instructor in
the air force before he met my mom and they met
in reno at stead air force base and my dad came
from the background he grew up in oklahoma very
poor not great parenting he was the child of
a single mother And so his life was pretty rough.
And then he met my mom and my mom came from a
family of, she had one sibling and her parents
were both educators. So they were both masters
prepared. So a little bit different. My dad always
teased her that she grew up with a silver spoon
in her mouth. And she kind of did a little bit,
but her family dynamic was really. crazy too
because her parents would do things like just
speak to each other in French and not speak to
my mom and then she lost her brother when he
was a senior in high school and my mom was a
sophomore so that was completely devastating
and the way that her parents kind of processed
that was the day after he died they removed everything
from the house that had any a remembrance of
him. So everything came off the walls, everything
came out of his room, and it was like he never
existed. And my mom is 85 and she still talks
about that to this day and is actually in grief
counseling, which I applaud her for. After 70
years of losing her brother, she finally decided
to get some help for herself. So these are two
imperfect people meeting and then deciding to
have a family and bring eight kids into the world.
My father was a good man with a bad disease of
alcoholism. And subsequently, I lost one of my
brothers to alcoholism and another brother is
permanently disabled because of alcoholism. So
those kinds of things have have, you know. obviously
affected our our entire family dynamic growing
up it was a little bit chaotic i always kind
of joke around because my younger sisters one
of them is 11 years younger than me and the other
one is 15 years younger than me they had a different
experience with my parents because my my dad
was sober at that time and my mom was less of
a codependent And so things were better for them
than they were for the first six of us. It's
interesting because I think we talked about my
book briefly as well. Like this is the whole
point of telling this multi -generational trauma
story. We recently have talked about our parents
and how did you grow up, but then you unpack
their childhood and then their grandparents'
childhood, and you see these dominoes falling.
So going to your mom for a moment, I think that's
so admirable that someone who's deeper into their
lifespan has the humility to say, I think I'm
going to work on myself. That is incredible.
So what was that turning point for her after,
you know? decades and decades of trauma herself
i think she's just coming to the end of her life
and i i mean i asked her you know why now like
first of all i said bravo and then i said what
was your motivation of why you're doing this
now kind of exactly what you asked and she said
you know i just didn't want to die without having
visited this how his death impacted my life my
entire life and again for my mom to say that
because my mom has really strong defense mechanisms
up and uh kind of like you know i'm never wrong
doesn't often apologize for things that you know
were in her realm to apologize for so just to
see it it's kind of amazing and uh and inspiring
and it just goes to show that it's never too
late to get help for yourself if if that's what
you want absolutely well let's talk about your
kind of career ambitions when you were in the
school age were you already dreaming of the medical
profession or was there something else in mind
i was not dreaming of it um i will say that my
mother was in nursing school And she had made
it halfway through nursing school when she met
my father. And so this is in the late 1950s.
And you could not be in nursing school and simultaneously
be married, which I think is just so crazy. So
she met my dad and it was kind of this whirlwind
thing and they wanted to get married. And so
she dropped out of nursing school. And of course,
I grew up with this story. But it still never
made me want to be a nurse. I think the first
inkling of wanting to be a nurse is, well, I'll
say the first inkling was really when I was seven
years old. So my father, as I said, was a salesman
and a repairman. And this was Christmas Eve.
He said, hey, we need to go down to the office.
Do you want to go with me? Which was very unusual
because with all these kids, you know, it was
usually going to be a thing where everyone jumped
in the car and went down with dad. But he asked
me, you know, do you want to come down to the
office with me? I have to do something. And,
you know, I said, yeah, sure. So on our way,
we passed by this man that was laying. pretty
much in the gutter and my dad said look at that
bum it's christmas eve and he has no one he's
laying in the gutter alone and i just remember
at that point so strongly feeling such a deep
like hurt for that man that he had nobody. And
it was Christmas Eve. And as you can imagine,
a seven -year -old on Christmas Eve that has
been waiting all year for Santa to come and the
excitement and, you know, all my brothers and
sisters, you know, we were just beyond excited
and it was just a crushing reality. And this
man was probably homeless although we didn't
have a term for it at that time or unhoused the
term was kind of like a bum you know and so that
I think what that instilled in me was just a
compassion for another human being so the the
second pivotal decision really was as a young
teenager When I was a preteen, my grandfather
had a massive stroke and they lived just about
two blocks from us. And so my brothers, my two
older brothers, were really tasked with helping
care for him because my grandparents had promised
each other, you know, we're not going to put
each other in a nursing home. So he stayed at
home and my brothers got up every day before
school. and went to care for him they turned
him they cleaned him they you know they changed
his catheter they did all of these tasks when
you care for someone they fed him they got him
up in the wheelchair and i saw that every day
and you know boys that are 15 16 years old This
isn't something that I think is normal. You know,
they're usually going to school and, you know,
roughhousing and I don't know, partying maybe.
But they were caring for my grandfather. And
then they when they graduated high school, they
became nurses. And so they were really the inspiration
for me to become a nurse. mainly because we got
to hear all their stories so they would come
home and they were still living at home at that
time and just tell stories around the dinner
table of you know patients that they took care
of they were both working in the operating room
and just the surgeries and the surgeons and all
the interpersonal relationships and it seemed
really exciting and I was like, yeah, that's
the life for me. Well, going back to the seven
-year -old you, it's interesting because if you
take that scenario, which we see to this day,
and I hate the word bum. I mean, I've said it
many, many times in my books and on here. I can't
stand that word. But really, you've got a hurt
person looking down at another hurt person. And
this is the issue that we have, the empaths,
the people with compassion look at those people
and go, God, that's someone that needs help.
But the nastiness or the shallow lack of compassion
usually is coming from a person who's struggling
themselves. So they're not able to really kind
of connect with that person, I think, because
they see a mirror in some respects. So it's interesting
now where I think people are finally starting
to really allow that conversation to happen.
And empathy and compassion is now viewed as a
strength, whereas for the longest time, as a
man, this kind of, oh, just judge everyone else
because you're in your ivory tower. So you get
to point fingers at everyone else rather than
this courageous vulnerability that we're seeing
now where people are like, no, I'm broken, in
an infallible way, not in a... I'm beyond help,
but I am imperfect myself. So let me work on
myself and let me help raise other people up.
So a lot of that nastiness that we're trying
to dismantle now comes from hurt people judging
other hurt people. Absolutely. I've heard you
say that before, you know, hurt people hurt people.
And looking back. thinking what was in my dad's
head when he said that and he called that guy
a bum you know my dad was uh an alcoholic at
that time and and it was almost like a message
like don't don't be like a message to himself
almost like don't don't get there Don't be laying
down in the gutter. You don't want that to happen.
And towards the end of my dad's disease, before
he got sober, that's exactly where he was. And
it was extremely embarrassing. I remember my
older brothers getting a call from the owners
of a grocery store that was about a mile around
the corner from us. And my dad had drank so much
that he was... laying down in the gutter and
these people knew us and they said hey you need
to come and get your dad and you know my brother
still talks about it to this day of how humiliating
that was to have to drive over and put his you
know inebriated dad in the car and um and then
after that you know my dad got sober thankfully
and what was the turning point for him Because,
I mean, I've got a friend at the moment, a childhood
friend that's struggling and he's been, you know,
had amazing success in certain addiction programs
and then just fallen off over and over and over
again. And he's just so full of guilt and shame.
But this is a guy who's trying to claw his way
out. But this disease just keeps dragging him
back into the pit. Yeah, I think there was a
conversation between my brothers and my dad where
my brothers were like, wow, this is really affecting.
us because people while you're in it they're
not talking about how it's really affecting you
and um and they were pretty much adults at that
time uh they were late teens 18 19 and they said
wow you know this is really distressing and we
don't want this to happen again don't let it
happen again so my dad started going to alcoholics
anonymous and for him it worked And, you know,
to the day he died, he was sober for 30 something
years after he passed away. I mean, before he
passed away. I guess after he passed away, he
was sober too, right? I was thinking that I wasn't
going to say it. But yeah, he maintained his
sobriety through AA. And I know for many people,
AA works. my brother who was permanently disabled
has been in aa for many years and has still continued
to drink so for him it's not working so yeah
it's a it's a tricky thing alcoholism and what
you want to do is break the cycle right you don't
want uh your kids you know growing up to be alcoholics
and I think that's what we're all striving for
is to stop this generational disease. Absolutely.
Well, you mentioned the compassion and empathy
that you witnessed in your brothers. And correct
me if I'm wrong, were they kind of early in the
male nurse movement too? Because that seems like,
you know, that's something that wasn't seen as
much back then. Absolutely. In my brother Chris's
graduating class in... In 1980, I want to say,
there were actually five male nurses, which was
very unusual. And they all went into the operating
room or emergency room nursing. And that still
is the pattern today, James. When you see males,
obviously there's more males in nursing today.
I think it's up to about 12%. But in the 80s,
it was, I know it was under 5%. So males in nursing
are still going into those emergency room, flight
nursing, ICU. They seem to be drawn towards some
more adrenaline based specialties. So walk me
through your journey into nursing then. OK, I
started nursing in. 1982. I graduated high school
and I was taking courses concurrently towards
my nursing degree. Graduated from nursing school
in 1985. So this is a long time ago and started
in pediatrics. And my reason for going into pediatrics
was just sort of ridiculous. There was no thought
behind it. I was 21 years old and there were
four positions at my local hospital. because
in the 80s we had a nursing glut if you can imagine
that so there weren't very many positions and
i saw pediatrics and my thinking was wow pediatrics
okay i like kids and i come from a large family
of kids so like how hard could it be and it was
really hard because it's not just kids and you
know kids are great when they're not ill and
then you add illness And it changes the whole
dynamic. And then, of course, kids don't come
alone. They come with their parents. And that's
a whole other dynamic as well. So it was really
difficult for me to navigate the whole pediatric
realm. But I quickly did. And I really learned
to love it. I stayed in pediatrics for 18 years.
And then I had the opportunity to go to the neonatal
intensive care unit. And so I did that and I
never regretted going into the NICU. I absolutely
loved it. Again, kids, very sick, very difficult
parents, very worried, all those dynamics. But
I spent the next 18 years of my career in the
NICU until I retired in 2022. Beautiful. Well,
going back to, I've never heard that word before,
nursing glut, which I'm assuming means more nurses
than physicians. That seems to be very different
than what we're seeing now, especially in my
profession. You know, people are screaming out.
And I know why we're struggling at the moment,
but I don't want to load the question. What was
it about the environment in the 80s where you
had the equation tipped the right way, more nurses
than physicians? You know, that is a great question,
James. I don't really have an answer for that.
I, yeah, I don't know why, but it quickly, I
will say the 80s were great because we seemed
to have good staffing. We had no ratios at that
time, which we do here in California. But I don't
know. I don't know. The patients weren't as sick,
so they weren't coming in with all these comorbidities
that they are coming in with now. So someone
coming in for surgery in 1980, you know, they
were probably fairly, I guess, healthy, as we
would say today, using our metrics today, than
they are now. Somebody coming in for surgery
now might have type 2 diabetes. high cholesterol,
obesity. There's a lot of different factors today.
I don't know if that really influenced it, but
I know that even from the 80s to the 90s, it
changed dramatically. In the 90s, it seemed like
we really started having a lot of staffing problems,
and it became very challenging. And by the time
I... retired in 2022, that had not changed. So
for, you know, three decades, the staffing issue
was always something that I had to deal with.
And, you know, probably every other nurse. Well,
let's go back to the comorbidities for a second.
You've got this pediatric lens and then this
neonate lens, obviously, I would imagine the
pediatric has got more time for pre -existing
diseases to manifest and obesity and those kind
of things. With the last four decades, what have
you seen overall as far as the body composition
issue with our young people and then the associated
diseases that are bringing them into the hospitals?
Yeah, I will say particularly in the NICU, when
I moved to the NICU, it was the late It was like
2007, 2006, 2007. And in the decades that followed,
the mothers, the pregnant mothers coming in had
so many comorbidities. So type 2 diabetes, obesity,
a lot of obesity. It seemed to just blow up.
In our area, we're in a rural kind of impoverished
area. There's a lot of poverty. So in around
2010, 2012, we saw a huge increase in the use
of methamphetamine, cocaine, heroin. seeing pregnant
women come in that were on these drugs that had
sexually transmitted diseases. We saw a lot of
syphilis, a lot of gonorrhea. So these moms coming
in, they had hypertension and I'm not talking
about pregnancy induced hypertension all we did
have a lot of pregnancy induced hypertension
these were women in their 30s coming in with
primary hypertension in their 30s we saw a big
change in the age of our women coming in so if
you're a woman and you're pregnant you are considered
an elderly mother and i just that term always
like throws me off but in the you know in the
obstetric community that's how you're classified
as an elderly mother and so we would see these
a lot of moms coming in in their third in their
late 30s 40s even 50s and so as you can imagine
as you age uh these comorbidities just increase
and They were delivering prematurely because
of these comorbidities. The babies were smaller.
The babies were sicker. The babies stayed longer
in the hospitals. The mothers were sicker. Many
mothers were going to the intensive care unit
after delivering or even before delivering so
that they could get stabilized. So yeah, just
a huge increase from just in those three decades.
of of practicing nursing a couple of my guests
have mentioned and i'd love to get your take
on this that unbeknownst to most of us the u
.s has a terrible um outcome when it comes to
infant mortality if i'm using the right term
so talk to me about that because we would have
you know somewhat arrogantly assume that well
you know we're all fine we're a first world country
you know we're the greatest country in the world
beating our chest but then As you've detailed,
there are many, many elements that aren't very
healthy for a young boy or girl to be born into.
So talk to me about where we actually rate as
far as the outcomes of our childbirth. Yeah,
I can't give you any hard statistics, but it's
pretty common that we suck as a nation. uh regarding
infant mortality and specifically uh black infant
mortality so it's multi -factorial there are
what we call care deserts and these are areas
that because they are impoverished because they
are low socioeconomic it's difficult to get physicians
obstetricians advanced practice nurses anybody
that sees pregnant women it's difficult to get
those providers into the area okay so you're
not having a lot of professionals coming into
the area so the ones that are here are burdened
with a really high population of patients So
there's long wait times. I, you know, I will
say that the model of care that we've seen, you
know, over the last few decades, actually, this
has been the model for a long time is very paternalistic.
So, you know, you're usually seen by a male physician
and there's some I don't know what the word is.
Sometimes women are ignored in terms of when
they come in presenting with things, you know,
oh, I'm feeling this or that. And they're kind
of told by their provider, well, you know, you're
pregnant. You're going to experience that. But
it's something deeper and oftentimes it's not
looked into until it becomes a true emergency.
And then the woman ends up in the emergency room
and she's having an abruption and, you know,
her and the baby bleed to death. So things are
kind of getting pushed aside and not really delved
into deeper. That's a problem. The care deserts
is a problem. Our town that I live in, Visalia,
we are experiencing a care desert right now,
which to me is amazing because our local institution
is a teaching institution. We're affiliated with
UCSF, USC, Stanford, Cleveland Clinic. So we
have all these affiliations. And then our biggest
private... obstetrical group. That's a mouthful.
They just closed down. They just closed down
and they have hundreds of patients that they're
seeing. And so they sent out a letter and they
said, we're closing. And about two weeks later
they did. So now there's all these women that
are just looking for care. and having to find
care in other places and and i think how does
this happen how does this happen in a town that's
growing that is you know affiliated with all
this great care how are we now going to this
place and a lot of it is because there's increasing
amounts of litigation Labor and delivery is one
of the most highly litigated specialties. So
these physicians are complaining of really high
malpractice insurance premiums. And they're trying
to run a business because let's just say it,
you know, it's a business, right? They're not
doing it for free. And they're finding it more
and more difficult. so a lot of these physicians
in this group kind of got absorbed they became
hospitalists so uh or laborists they're called
so what they do is they do shift work now so
they take shifts and they stay in the hospital
and they see all the patients on the labor and
delivery unit that need to be seen they're there
so that if there's an emergency c -section they
can do that and you know the research has shown
that laborists improve the care that women are
getting in the hospital because they don't have
to call anyone in from their house and wait 15
minutes for them to get there if the if the woman
needs a c -section immediately they can do it
because they're right there so they have better
outcomes so i think all of those are are contributing
to the low infant mortality but i feel like the
main one is the condition that the mother is
in before she even gets pregnant When you're
talking about that closing, I'm seeing a lot
of this on my social media now. It's not like
I'm following rural hospitals or rural medical
centers specifically, but I keep seeing that
over and over again that they're closing. And
what's interesting to me when you're talking
about, you know. an organization that has all
these very, very prestigious universities attached
to it, it really parallels what I'm seeing here
in Marion County, where I live. We have the Florida
State Fire Academy in my county, and all these
young people are going through, but none of them
are working for the county where I live. And
it's because people look at all the conditions
on paper and go, well, this looks terrible. 56
hours a week, mandatory overtime. You know, you've
had six suicides or five actual suicides, two
attempts in the last five years, if anyone actually
does their research. This is horrendous. I'm
going to go down to somewhere that actually values
their people, like Gainesville, for example.
And so we're losing all these young people. And
I think it's the same with what you're talking
about. What is it about the environment, as you
mentioned, the craziness of the lawsuits that
we have in this country? Of course, there's a
time and place for that. But we have so many
ambulance chasers trying to make lawsuits have
nothing that it's just destroying the medical
profession in general. But, you know, and then
the working conditions and the ratios and the,
you know, the satisfaction ratings and all these
things that are people are held by by these corporations
that own hospitals and medical centers rather
than. locking back into truly just wanting to
help people like you said the seven -year -old
you looking at that man in the car that's what's
burning in most of our hearts but it's just being
torn apart by the working environment itself
i'm sure the people in labor delivery still love
delivering babies but it's it's diluted so if
you were queen for a day how would you change
the environment so that we can reverse this crisis
is going on in your community Man, that's a huge
task, James. We've got all day. Yeah, right.
I think it just has to start. Man, I don't know
where it has to start. Maybe we just have to
go back. Okay, I will say working for an institution,
what I don't like. And I know it's just, it's
the reality is the business side of it. I think
medical care being incentivized as a business
is a really bad idea. Because what you're going
to do is you're going to get people that, the
people that have money are always going to get
the care, right? Because they can pay. the people
that don't um and in our community i'll say that
we have a high population of medical and so medical
is our it's our like a medicaid for california
and because we have a lot of poor people in california
amazingly i know people think of california as
just all celebrities and you know rich people
those are uh there's deserts of rich people but
Many people here are not wealthy by any means.
And so the people that are just getting by are
going to get medical care, Medi -Cal. Usually
every community that you go to in California
has somebody that provides service for Medi -Cal
recipients. What's happening is, I'll say in
our local hospital, is we have about 70%. our
population is medical and medical traditionally
doesn't pay very much so who eats that the hospital
eats that and they eat it by they have to reduce
costs elsewhere right so they don't pay their
employees very much their nurses very much self
-funded as far as insurance which is kind of
unusual but it's a great it's a great gig if
you can get it in your hospital in your community
because we had really we had really good benefits
for the employees but um you know i just i don't
like the idea of of medical care being turned
into a business. And I don't know, like, you
know, you're familiar with the NHS. And that's
kind of like a Medicare for all in the UK, if
I'm not mistaken. But, you know, is it also looked
at as a business? You know, I don't know. It's
interesting because, again, I'm not an expert
in the NHS and all the working, moving parts.
However, I do understand that it ultimately came
from simply wanting everyone to have care. Full
stop. That was it. It was coming from an altruistic
place originally. And if I was just thinking
while you were talking, if you go way back to
ancient humans. There wasn't, you know, Steve
the Inca. I don't know why I always call it Inca
Steve. But anyway, Steve the Inca didn't have
to show his, you know, insurance card when he
broke his leg. No, the tribe came together, the
witch doctor, whatever it was, their version
of taking care of each other existed in that
tribal space. It wasn't to profit off the other
Incas. And so when I look back at the, in its
purest form, the NHS, which I grew up in, I had,
you know, rural doctors. I went to, you know,
inner city hospitals. It was amazing. You know,
our doctor was incredible. And I've always said
this, my grandparents paid for the supplementary,
it's called Bupa, which is extra private insurance
that you can pay for. And they got their own
clinics and it's all very la -di -da. Like you
said, the wealthy people, you know, will always
have care. Well, they priced my grandparents
out of their plan. I mean, they lived to be,
my granddad was 99. My grandmother was almost
105 when she passed. And my granddad died of
cancer. um tough as old boots he freaking got
t -boned in a car one day at like 50 miles an
hour after pulling out in front of someone and
literally walked it off like 97 98 whatever he
was then but that's how they discovered ultimately
through scans later on that he had this cancer
but bupa had already dumped them by that point
you know the premiums were so insane they just
couldn't afford to pay when they really needed
the help now they'd invested for years and years
and years so the nhs was who took care of them
And I watched my local doctor do numerous house
visits. They had hospital beds set up. He had
hospice care. He had nurses visit. After he passed,
they helped with his body. And then they came
and got the furniture a little bit later. And
then they kept visiting my grandmother for a
few weeks after that. That was the NHS. So this
is what I tell people. Yes, you're going to see
those examples of some inner city hospital where
someone dies in the waiting room. We have that
in America, too. But at its core, and it isn't
at its core now, what you see in the NHS now
is they began trying to privatize parts of it
a couple of decades ago now, at least. So they've
torn it apart by trying to use the American model,
which, as we just discussed, if you have a profit
-based health care system. it's not going to
benefit the health of the people because we need
sick people to make money. So to me, if you actually
had an NHS -style system that you didn't adulterate
through privatization, your entire goal then
is to make the nation as healthy as possible
so that you use as little tax money as possible.
We have the complete opposite here. You know,
you've been in your profession a lot longer than
I was in mine, but I saw it firsthand. There's
no money in healthy people and there's no money
in dead people, but you can be the world's best
drug dealer for the people in the middle. If
you're sick and alive, I got, you know, you're
my cash cow for decades to come. So I think that
the model, the original model of the NHS to me
is by far the best system on the planet, but
it has to be funded properly. And if you go back
home, certainly, you know, again, when it was
supported properly, the doctors were driving
Mercedes. You know, it was a well -paid profession,
but now it's been more and more under supported.
And I remember even back when I was younger,
nurses going on strike. So but if you really
create that altruistic health care model and
then invest in it, say, no, this is going to
need more government money initially. But then
you're saving money hand over fist because your
nation is getting healthier and healthier. to
me that's the perfect one and then even what
we just talked about infant mortality it's affecting
that now too because the mothers that are coming
into your l d are now far more healthier and
far less likely to have any complications right
yeah and you know i've talked to a lot of nurses
now on the podcast and you know many of them,
they don't have any answers either because what
it comes down to is they just want to take care
of patients. They want. to be able to spend time
with their patients they want ratios that are
manageable that we know from lots of research
you know the less patients the nurse has the
better the outcome for those patients the more
patients the nurse has the worst outcome for
those patients and it's like well why do we study
this stuff if we're not going to implement you
know Proper ratios. And again, I will say I'm
in California and we have ratios, but there is
also ways that hospitals get around ratios, you
know. So nurses, physicians, and I'm sure it's
the same in the firefighter community. You were
motivated to go into that profession because
you want to help people, you know, whatever that
means. That's always kind of a broad kind of.
stroke i want to help people well okay um but
then you're faced with all the bureaucracy that
comes with it there's there's no money um there's
you know there's crappy shifts uh there's things
that you're seeing that you can't unsee and there's
no mental help for that um so I don't know what
the answer is, James. I don't know what the answer
is, but something's got to change. And I think,
yeah, I don't know what the answer is. I'm at
a loss. Well, I think it just goes back to until
we really lean back into kindness, compassion,
empathy, community, then we're not. And as long
as these lobbyists aligning the politicians of
both sides of the aisle, then we're going to
keep having this sick care system that we have
at the moment. And we're going to keep losing
so many people. I mean, you know, the whole Black
Lives Matter movement, for example. Still waiting
for them to talk about the obesity crisis is
killing so many African -Americans in this country,
you know, way more than than all the other things
that are also need to be talked about. But this
is this is it. I mean, they're just there's this
distraction of this conversation and even COVID.
I mean, my goodness, there was that little ticker
on, you know, on the news stations. Oh, we've
lost this many. Well, that went away. Well, we're
still losing that many to the you know, to everything
else that is killing people. And I would argue
that COVID was just finishing off. a lot of people
that were very, very sick already. So when it
comes to truly caring about the health of the
nation, I'm not seeing this from anyone. And
even, you know, I really liked RFK prior to the
election. And there's all these promises about
make America healthy again. And in five months,
all they've done is talk about red food dye.
So there we go. I mean, you've spoken loudly.
Clearly, there's no... No desire to actually
fix it at all because we're in May now and nothing
has changed. So I think the people have to get
educated, have to get angry and rise up and demand
something different because the way that we're
doing it has resulted in 70 plus percent of this
population being overweight or obese. And we're
losing millions of people to all things related
to that. And as you mentioned, it was never discussed.
We're losing infants. We're losing pregnant women.
You know, and where's the conversation? Where's
the outrage in that? Yeah, there's there's none.
There's crickets chirping. That's what I always
like to say. There's crickets chirping. And,
you know, what we hear with this current administration
is, like you said, we're five months in and there's
been very little change, if any. You know, it
takes time. OK, yeah, I've heard that all my
life in the nursing profession. You don't change
these things overnight. OK, now I was hearing
that in the 1980s and now it's 2025. And the
nurses I talk to are still hearing that and we're
tired of it. And nurses are leaving the profession.
Physicians are getting trained and they are not
going back to their communities. They are going
on to where they can make the most money, where
they can live in the places that. you know, are
nice to live in, that have great weather, that
have great socioeconomics. I will say that I'm
very proud of my niece and my nephew -in -law.
They are physicians here locally. They grew up
here. They went to medical school. They came
back here with the desire to practice in the
community that they grew up in and to serve the
community but they're outliers that doesn't happen
and so we have these deserts where we don't have
practitioners and people have to drive you know
many miles hundreds of miles to find care and
it's just it's just not acceptable and the insurance
companies are dictating what physicians can do
and what they can't do in their care and We have
physicians leaving and yeah, it's a big mess
and we just need a complete overhaul, but I wouldn't
know where to start. Health policy has never
been my thing as far as I don't have any literacy
really in health policy. I'm learning so much
from my guests in that realm. So it's just a
multi -dimensional problem. and one that I don't
see being resolved very soon, sadly. I find the
term, oh, it's complicated, or it's going to
take time, just the rhetoric of the coward, simply.
Because, wow, you managed to find a vaccine for
an unknown virus in a few months and you were
getting that all over the place. You were able
to shut down the planet overnight. So you're
telling me that you can't make these reforms
that are killing... you know, over, like you
said, the span of your entire career, hundreds
of millions of people, you're still air quotes
working on that problem. So I think the only
way that we change it is we get, like I said,
everyone needs to get educated. And that's why
I loved seeing the pit when that came out. I
don't know if you've watched that show yet, but
I haven't, I don't have, I know I don't have
HBO max and I'm just like digging my feet in.
I no more cable channels. But if you're able
to, I think because I've done those just subscribe
just for a month to watch it. And then I then
I turn it off again. But yeah, it is it hits
so many of the areas. I think you'd really enjoy
it. And it's, you know, the medical side, they're
bang on. There's nothing is actually there's
not a childbirth case, I don't think in their
particular. But it was really well done. But
it highlights the ratios, the pressure from the
admin. I mean, the violence on nurses. I mean,
so many things that need to be talked about.
But it's so good for people to see, like, no,
this is just a regular Tuesday. and the triage
area is completely full and the medics are waiting
to offload patients because that was what pissed
me off during covid oh you know you get these
journalists in the in the uh the hallway there's
people in the hallways like there's always people
in the hallways where were you the other you
didn't give a a few weeks ago and now you're
acting like this is the end of the world yeah
it's ignorance they don't know what goes on in
the fire service they don't know what goes on
in hospitals most people would be completely
horrified to find out what we do on a daily basis
and completely traumatized and and and you're
right maybe it would cause people to rise up
and say do you see what's going on in hospitals
do you see that nurses are being attacked uh
do you see you know that firefighters are killing
themselves This isn't right. You know, we know
that because we're in it. But I think the general
population really doesn't see it or have any
idea about it. That's why I'm working on getting
Kinda made into a show, because to me, you know,
you've got to reverse 1984. You know, you've
got to use a television to educate people. That
is the ultimate classroom. So if you can create
something that really pulls them in, and I got
a parallel project that will actually educate
kind of on the side as well. Then you circumnavigate
all the politics and all the corruption and all
the filters and you just get right to the person's
heart. So I think there's an opportunity to do
it through the screen. But, you know, I've just
got to make it happen. Yeah. And I will say,
James, that, you know, I was one of those people
that I just spoke about that didn't know what
went on in the fire service. And had I seen firefighters
in my community? Oh, absolutely. You know. but
had no idea the challenges that they were facing
and then uh you know when i met you i was at
the time in my podcast career where some of my
listeners and my guests were saying hey why don't
you kind of branch out a little bit and interview
disciplines other than nurses which was saying,
we're sick of hearing about nurses. No, they
weren't saying that, but they were challenging
me. And so that's when I reached out to you and
I said, yeah, I don't really know anything about
what you do. And so I got your first book, One
More Light. And that really, man, that just blew
me away because I really had no idea. And then
I absolutely loved your second book, Kinder,
because that put it in the perspective of a story.
And you just brilliantly told that. And it gave
me just so much insight into being able. And
I know I reached out to you because I was going
to interview my local fire chief who happens
to be my neighbor. And I was I was just at a
loss. I'm like, I don't know what to I don't
know how to prepare for this. And so you suggested
that I listen to your episode with Hugh Bruder
out of Florida there. And I did. And I was it
just was so helpful in really just helping me
understand all the challenges that your profession
is up against when. When it comes right down
to it, all you guys want to do is help people.
You want to help your communities. You want to
make your communities better, safer. And you
want to do it in a way that doesn't destroy you.
Right. So that when you put in your 20, 30, 35
years, whatever it is, years of service, that
when you retire, you're not dying, you know,
two to five years later. And so. You know, I
just wanted to say I appreciate all the help
that you gave me interviewing Charlie. And I
think I enjoyed that interview. And, you know,
I heard some of the same things that you've been
talking about that, you know, because I did propose
to him the 24 -72 shift. And I backed that up
with all your... your great information that
you've been talking about for so many years.
And, you know, he said, yeah, that sounds great.
But, but we don't have money and we don't have
staff and all the same things that you've heard
over the years. And, you know, I didn't push
it because I don't have enough. I don't have
enough. i don't know clout behind me so to challenge
him but um he was aware of your work and that's
that's good that's a first step and i think absolutely
what you said earlier it takes people being educated
so if you're going to be a firefighter if you're
going to be a nurse maybe before you even enter
into your training start looking into what you're
going into So that you don't go into something
that you didn't think, you know, that you didn't
know about, that you didn't know what were the
potential pitfalls of going into this profession.
Because we all just start with that burning desire
to get out there and help people and serve, help
our communities. And then we run into these issues
which cause. burnout, and all those other things
that follow. So that was a long way of saying
thank you for helping me prepare for that interview.
Oh, you're welcome. This is a beautiful thing,
though. I learned so much from speaking to you.
And this is, I think, when your friends challenge
you to interview other people, this is what I
found has been the superpower of my podcast,
too, is just you could be interesting, excuse
me, interviewing a gymnast or an astronaut or
a veterinary surgeon. And the parallels between
some of the things that they struggle with and
the ones that we do, you remember, oh, yeah,
that's right. You're a human being that does
this job. You're human first. And so then some
of the solutions that they found in completely
different disciplines, you're like, well, why
are we not doing that in the fire service? Why
are we not doing that in nursing? You know, they're
doing this in Norway or this in England or this
in, you know. Finland school, schoolhouse, whatever
it is. And you start realizing, oh, there are
actually solutions out there, but that takes
humility. And that's the other thing is you got
to get people educated and you got them to just
drop that the way we've always done it, because
the way we've always done it doesn't work. Otherwise
we'd have nurses, you know, fighting for positions.
We'd have firefighters fighting for positions
and we'd have a nation of super healthy people.
But that's not the case. So it's not about doom
and glooming. It's about people that care. Like
you said, we're out of our uniforms now, but
we still care because we still don't want people
to suffer. We still don't want people to die.
And so now being this force multiplier, you and
I have got a microphone instead of a stethoscope.
And we're like, okay, well, it's, you know, we
as a profession need to force change because
people admire nurses. They admire firefighters
and paramedics. So United. We would have an incredibly
powerful voice, but we're so siloed and so overworked
and exhausted that it's really hard to rally
the troops. Yeah, I always just tell people to
imagine your community with no nurses and no
firefighters. You go into the hospital and you
go into the emergency room with whatever, an
injury. sorry, there's nobody there to take care
of you. Your house is burning down. You know,
your husband's having a heart attack. I'm sorry.
Oh, you called 911. There's nobody to respond.
And, you know, people laugh and they say that
would never happen. And I say that would never
happen because of the people that are in these
professions that care enough to never let that
happen. But if only for those people. If it's
for other people, if it's for the insurance company,
the institutions, I don't know if they would
care so much. Well, you touched on some of the
challenges that my profession faces, and we've
talked about some of the challenges that the
patients face themselves. What are some of the
lesser known elements that are affecting the
nursing professions? I mean, again, the men and
women in your profession work shifts. We see,
again, some of the ill health, the obesity and
some of the smokings, one that really blows me
away. But this profession sees these people that
are so, so sick, and yet the need to stay up,
the need to deal with the stress. A lot of times
you'll see people smoking outside the ER when
they've got lots of people. dying from the very
thing that they're leaning into. So what are
some of the overall issues that you want to highlight
when it comes to advocating for your people?
Yeah, that's a great point, James. Nurses are
great caretakers, except when it comes to caring
for themselves. And, you know, we know it. We're
just not good about stuff like that. And, you
know, I had D .D. Finder on my show and he highlighted
it so beautifully. He said because we were talking
about how nurses are. Many of us are very deconditioned.
You know, we don't exercise on a regular basis.
And the lie we tell ourselves, and I definitely
told myself this lie many, many years was. I
run my ass off for 12, 13 hours. I'm getting
exercise. That's a lie. It's not the right kind
of exercise. I wasn't lifting any weights. I
was exhausted at the end of the shift. So the
next day I didn't do anything, but I kept justifying
it to myself that. Hey, I ran, you know, I probably
walked, you know, 13, 14, 15 ,000 steps yesterday
at work. So that gives me the right to just sit
on my ass today. And, you know, I see this multiplied
by many, many, many nurses. And a lot of it is
just, you know, sheer exhaustion. So we're just
going to do the basics. We, you know, I will
say for myself. In 2009, I was diagnosed with
breast cancer. And I look at the years leading
up to that diagnosis, because I was young, I
was only 45. And I was like, what was happening
in those years before I got diagnosed? I was
working. So our Nikki was growing so fast. that
we had no staff we had so we had just brought
on a neonatology group which means we're keeping
sicker earlier babies and we were also in the
middle of a methamphetamine crisis in our county
so we were having these moms come in that were
sicker and delivering these babies that were
more premature and the babies were sicker And
our NICU was growing. So we had more patients
who were sicker. The acuity was higher and so
forth. And they implemented in our hospital,
they implemented what was called extra shift
incentive. And it was really good. The money
was really good. So we could make an extra $400
per 12 -hour shift. And there weren't many nurses
that turned that down. So what happened was we
all jumped on board with it. And I had two girls
that were just going to start college at that
time. And I'm not one who likes a lot of debt.
So I said, hmm, let me see how many shifts I
can work so that we can pay cash. for these girls
to go to college. My husband was a teacher and
his, you know, he wasn't as flexible in his job.
He couldn't really, you know, quote unquote,
work extra. So he worked his regular, you know,
Monday through Friday job. But I had a lot more
flexibility in my job. So during those years,
I was working five to six 12 hour shifts per
week. And what happens when you're working that
much? Something has to suffer. So physically,
I was not doing anything except running around
all day at work. On my one to two days off a
week, I was not doing anything physically, not
working out. I did not have time because I would
get home at 7, 730 at night. So meal planning
was out. My husband really didn't cook. One of
my girls had left home and the other girl was
at home, but she was working full time, so didn't
have a lot of time. So we were eating out a lot.
We were getting I was getting off shift at seven,
seven thirty and we'd go out to eat. And then
I would try to go to bed by nine, having eaten
at eight. And it just I wasn't sleeping. I wasn't
eating well. I wasn't taking care of myself.
I was just working. coming home and did that
for several years and oh yeah i could pat myself
on the back because you know we put two girls
through college without any debt that's another
that's a whole another issue that needs to be
overhauled right but we don't have an extra two
hours for that today so you know at 45 years
old i'm i'm getting you know i'm sitting in a
doctor's office and he's telling me you have
breast cancer You got to remove that breast and
have chemo. And so I did that. That was my wake
up call. And we all hope we get a wake up call,
right? And that was mine, that something's got
to give. There are more important things than
money. Your health is one of them. And so that
started my journey into really taking a look
at what I could change in my life. um at that
point i never said i want to get out of nursing
because it was like a badge for me it was a badge
that i wore proudly look at me look at how many
hours i've worked this week it wasn't just about
the money that i was getting all that was although
that was highly attractive and i was proud of
that too but it came at a price so um that's
when things really changed for me in terms of
looking at you got to do something different
and um yeah and so going back you know i kind
of got off went down a rabbit hole there but
what dd said was nurses are are deconditioned
you know they're not working out they're not
lifting weights they're sitting around in the
icu and then they have to go turn a patient or
do a procedure on a patient or lift a patient
get a patient out of bed and they're going from
like zero to 60 in 2 .5 seconds so they've been
sitting and then they're going to get up and
lift this you know 250 300 pound person and they're
hurting their backs they're um you know they're
they're tearing their shoulders and then they're
going out on disability. And so, you know, yes,
we have to look at all the things we're preaching.
We have to practice what we preach. And we preach
this to our patients all the time about, you
know, don't smoke, don't get fat, exercise. Take
care of your mental health. But then when it
comes to doing those very things that we're preaching,
we're really bad at it. We're getting better,
but we're not there yet. That badge of honor
that, you know, I'll sleep when I'm dead mentality
is one of the enemies of. the wellness movement
in our profession. And sadly, because they're
so understaffed at the moment, they're enabling
these people to work more and more and more,
whether they're forcing them, truly volunteering,
or what happens in the middle, I'm sure it's
the same with you, is there's that group where
they're working so one of their other firefighters
doesn't get hit because they just had a newborn
baby or whatever it is. So you take one on the
chin for them. But if you put it in any other
profession, that just wouldn't fly. If you work
for a grocery store and they're like, okay, we
need you to work three extra days a week, you'd
be like, no. If you worked in a bank, you worked
anywhere else, a dental office, it's not going
to fly. But the mismanagement of a hospital or
a fire department always falls squarely on the
responder, the nurse. And like you said, in some
cases, there's a financial incentive, but it's
so irresponsible because, I mean, you highlighted
it perfectly with your story. It's a false economy.
Yes, you had a few extra pennies for working,
but what was the true cost downstream of overworking
an employee? So yes, it's about ownership, but
it's also really ultimately about managing the
place of employment. Because if that overtime
isn't there, then guess what? The employee can't
overwork. It's physically impossible. And then
you educate them if they work on the side. to
or, you know, actually put it in writing that
you cannot work overnight on your day off. Like,
yeah, go landscape, go, you know, build cabinets,
whatever you want to do. But you have a responsibility
to be well rested when you come back. So it's
always on the nurse, the firefighter, the police
officer. And no one really says, well, wait a
second. Why are there so many vacancies in the
first place? I've literally had chiefs tell me
if we give if we give them more time off, they'll
just work more. I'm like, what an arrogant thing
to say. They will not be able to work more if
you actually know how to manage your fire department,
because there will be no vacancies apart from
once in a while. So the reason why your story
is told as it is, even though, like you said,
yes, there was a financial benefit, had your
organization staffed themselves properly, you
would never have been down that road in the first
place and possibly never even had to have the
medical journey that you had. yeah that's absolutely
true that's the crux of the matter and um funny
we had a very intuitive manager at the time in
the nicu that when they instituted this all this
overtime she told us you guys have to be very
careful about this about not working too much
i know it's because we had people going oh, now
I, you know, my husband can buy that boat that
he's always wanted. And I only have to work this
many overtime shifts to do it. And, you know,
she said, you got to be careful, be careful because
you, you got to take care of yourself and you
can definitely go down this rabbit hole at the
thought of, you know, making all this money.
And man, she was right. Well, I want to get on
to the mental health side as well. But just before
we do, this can be some severe calls. It can
be some beautiful outcomes, whatever it is. But
when you reflect back on this incredible journey
that you have with pediatric and neonate patients,
what are some of the outcomes that really stuck
with you, positive or negative? uh positive definitely
anytime that you have a child come in that's
gravely ill and you can be part of the team that
turns that around and then you see that child
go home with his parents without any you know
bad uh sequelae like that is just so gratifying
it's like that cements why you're there, why
you're doing all the things that you're doing.
And it's not just one person, it's a team and
loved working on teams. But yeah, and the same
for NICU, we would have some very premature babies,
babies that weighed less than a pound that were
hospitalized for five months that went through
hell and back. And to be able to see those parents,
you know, take that child out in their arms.
doing well and starting their life is just very
gratifying. I think that's why many people go
into the profession. Negatively, you know, I
just think the cumulative stress of seeing what
you see on a daily basis, I guess, is And it's,
as DeeDee said, you know, and he quoted it from
somebody else, the death by a thousand cuts,
the moral distress of not being able to care
for people the way that you know you should be
able to care for them, the way that's ethically
responsible to care for them. And then to go
home and have to live with that is, it's really
difficult. It's really hard on your mental health.
and there's not many people that you can talk
to about it as far as like in my family you know
my my husband definitely would always be a listening
ear but didn't really know all the ins and outs
of the profession although there were six nurses
in our family so many of my siblings are nurses
we didn't really talk about the things that laid
heavily on us to each other And after interviewing
so many nurses, I find that to be true as well.
Like in the day to day, nurses don't talk to
each other about those things. They don't talk
to each other about, you know, the patient that
they took care of for, you know, weeks died.
We just we just handle it ourselves. We don't
talk about it. Thankfully, there are debriefs
now. And we had a great clinical educator in
the NICU that did some great debriefs when we
would lose babies. And that helped a little bit.
But each person is responsible for their own
mental health. We didn't really rely on each
other for that, which is sadly, when I think
back now, like, man, I was working alongside
these people, but I had no idea what they were
bearing. And nobody ever asked me, you know,
and I don't know why that is. Is it the same
in the firefighter community? Yeah, it really
is. I think that one of the problems is that
you probably look across the NICU at each other
and go, well, you know, Steve or Sylvia is doing
fine. So I'm going to keep my stuff to myself.
But they're looking across at you thinking exactly
the same thing because. As I've said, you know,
if I go on to into a fire, I can't run around
screaming like a queen saying, oh, my God, it's
so hot. I've got to get in there from a big boy
pants on and do the job. But then you pull out,
you know, a child. You do have to process that
at some point. But we wear these masks so well,
the same way as you would have to during, you
know, whatever it is working with a child that
we forget that you've got to pull that thing
off when you're done, you know, in your flow
state working as an actual. you know, in the
operation of the field. But I think it's becoming
more and more of a conversation now. I think
this is what's great about these young firefighters,
paramedics, nurses, is they're coming in with
a lot more emotional intuition and vulnerability.
So now it's tempering it and getting them to
understand, okay, this is when you really have
to just roll up your sleeves and get on with
it. But then absolutely, we need to be able to
converse and say, yeah, that was horrible. And
when I think about the ones that were... The
worst, they will involve children. And that's
what you work with your entire career. So, of
course, it's going to be a massive load in pediatrics
and neonates because it's, let's be honest, it's
the most sad of events. These poor little boys
and girls have barely had a chance to even have
this existence and it's taken from them. Yeah,
I will highlight something that happened in my
career. My first year, I was 21, brand new nurse,
1986. And I had my first pediatric death just
a few months into my practice. This was a little
girl that died of pneumonia, overwhelming sepsis.
And her parents had just left for the night to
go home. Because at that time, James, this is
so ridiculous. We didn't let parents stay overnight
in the hospital with their children. So imagine
being the parent of a sick child and the nurse
is telling you, It's eight o 'clock. You got
to go home. Who does the child want when they're
sick? They want their parent. You know, developmentally,
we know that's really bad to separate them. But
we did that and the parents left and the child
died. And then we had to call the parents back
and they were about 30 minutes away. And, you
know, it was just incredibly. And, you know,
I was tasked with the postmortem care of this
child and I had to put the child in a body bag.
And I remember zipping up the body bag and stopping,
stopping the zipper right at the neck and not
wanting the face to go into the bag. And the
nurse that was with me said, you have to zip
it up, you know. the whole way. And I said, but
she's not going to be able to breathe. And, you
know, this nurse was very intuitive and she said,
it's okay, honey. She's, she's not breathing.
You know, she's died. So obviously I hadn't processed
it by that time. Now, what would happen today?
If that happened, that nurse would be sent home
for the shift. If the manager had to come in
and take over her patients, that's what would
happen in our hospital anyway. And that's better.
And then they would reach out to that nurse and
get her hooked up with some kind of mental health,
some kind of a therapist to help the nurse process
this. So that's a great change in the last, you
know, 36, 40 years from when I went through it.
You mentioned about some of the baggage, basically,
that you carried into the profession. I think
this is really important for people to understand.
A lot of us that do this, that are empaths, usually
have got some stuff in their early life. And
whether it's parents battling alcoholism or domestic
abuse or child abuse or whatever the thing is,
you see that a lot. Now, that doesn't mean that
it's going to be detrimental. But it is if it's
forced down, if it's left unaddressed, I think
it does become a fracture in our foundation then.
And it needs to be part of the overall conversation
of mental health in our professions, respectively.
When you reflect back now, where were the lowest
places that you got? And then what were the tools
that you've used to, you know, grow from that
to get that post -traumatic growth? Wow. I will
say you are absolutely right on about that, about
people that enter the helping professions are
usually usually bringing a lot of baggage with
them. Right. And so in my own case, growing up
in an alcoholic family, being a victim of sexual
abuse, a lot of childhood trauma. And I'm bringing
that into a profession. And I know now from talking
to so many nurses that. That's exactly what's
happening on a grander scale. But none of us
are talking about it. I worked alongside nurses
my whole career that I never knew anything about
their family history, what they had suffered.
I had no inkling. And they were probably suffering
some of the same things that I had. And so I
think... You're absolutely right. We take all
this childhood trauma and many for many of us,
it's unprocessed trauma into our professions.
And we try to care for people with all of that
stuff. And we kind of lose ourselves in the process.
As far as my journey, I don't think there was
like a time where. I got so low. I think early
in my career, in my 20s, I started seeing a therapist
for to help heal some of that childhood trauma.
And I think that served me throughout my career
because I could recognize it in others and I
could recognize some of the things that I did,
like, you know, my people pleasing personality.
uh just kind of always putting my needs on the
back burner and it's you know what do you need
how can i care for you um i learned some of those
techniques to to kind of correct some of those
things but um you know i don't think it was any
one thing and i've always been a proponent for
If you need to talk to somebody, talk to somebody,
seek out a therapist. And I've talked to several
therapists and some of them were good for me
and some of them were not good for me. And so
that again, and I know that you've spoken many
times about finding a therapist that is familiar
with your profession and all the things that
you encounter in your profession to help you.
with those issues and I back that 100%. So, yeah,
I just, you know, maybe to your point, again,
before you head into a profession, look at what
you're in for and try to do some healing of your
own stuff before you take that stuff. into your
profession. Absolutely. Well, the other side
of the conversation is the transition. And it's
very, very, it seems to factor in with most people's
transition when we wear a uniform, we have this
tribe, we have this identity, we have this purpose.
And then whatever it is, whether it's, you know,
actually retiring, whether it's getting hurt,
whether it's getting fired, whether it's even
promoting out of a fire station to a desk somewhere.
You see a lot of people struggle with that. What
was your transition like from nursing where you've
been this healer, you've been this, as you mentioned,
even this people pleaser for so long. And then
one day you walk out the hospital and your ID
doesn't work anymore. It was rough. It was rough.
So this, you know, sometimes I talk about divine
intervention because I believe in that. Shortly
after I retired, I discovered your podcast, and
one of the very first episodes I listened to
was Sebastian Schenker. That was a great episode,
and I went and bought his book, Tribe, on homecoming
and belonging, because I was really in the throes
of missing my tribe, missing the teamwork, the
camaraderie. Nurses would come to my desk and
just sit and bullshit and talk about just the
struggles that they're having, maybe in their
home life or with another co -worker. And I was
missing that. I got to see all the parents of
the NICU every day in my job. Got to sit down
and talk to them and see what their struggles
were and how they were handling, you know, having
a baby in the NICU. I missed all of that. I missed
rounds. We would have grand rounds every day.
And I missed rounds. I missed wearing scrubs,
which is, that's insane. The scrubs are the worst
things you can wear. I miss all of it. And this
was only after a few months. The first two or
three months after I retired, it was like the
honeymoon period. It was like I was doing all
the things that I couldn't do when I was working
all day. I was baking. I learned how to make
macarons. I was going to the library. I had a
stack of books that I was reading. I was walking
miles every day. I mean, I was just like... this
is freedom and then about the third month it
set in and I was like oh man uh this is bad and
I kind of had prepared myself a little bit I
knew about a year or so before I was going to
retire and I said you know you might have trouble
disconnecting from this nurse identity so I consulted
a therapist to help me with that and she was
very helpful with that And at that point, I had
already been in the beginning preparation stages
for having a podcast. And that was a whole nother
thing because I had just recently become a listener.
And I tell this story because it's just so ridiculous,
but I think it's a nurse thing. It was like,
I think I'm going to start a podcast and I'm
going to talk to nurses about nursing. and like
how hard could it be you know you just get a
microphone and you start talking and I wasn't
prepared for the learning curve so I had to learn
that really quickly but that was fun and it was
just a lot of introspection the Sebastian's book
was really helpful because you know the tribe
is really important and a lot of things we do
in nursing and i know that this happens in all
kind of first responder communities it's all
about the trauma bonding right it's like we are
bonded over all these things that we have seen
and done and um you know i just was like if i'm
not a nurse like what am i i have spent 36 years
being a nurse 40 years at this hospital you know
badging in and out of this door and that door
and having authority and having um credibility
i guess i could say credibility instead of authority
i didn't i probably didn't have much authority
that was in my own mind but i had credibility
you know and and then now it's just gone and
and i got a few tastes of like how we treat retired
people in in our country i don't know if this
happens in other parts of the world but it's
just like okay you're done there's no value to
you anymore and it's really sad um so yeah that
that was kind of my journey and you know one
of the things that sebastian talked about in
his book And I know you've talked about this,
too, because, again, a lot of first responders
are in the CrossFit community. And I will say
I was a proud member of the CrossFit community
for two years from 2018 to 2020 at the start
of the pandemic until our gym shut down. And
then I never went back. But I had never outside
of nursing. i had never experienced that tribe
feeling and i absolutely loved it um i i absolutely
loved it i did crossfit four to five times a
week i never uh did anything strict so i never
did a strict pull -up i you know i had to scale
everything but it was Some of the two best years
of my life because of that community so caring
So motivating when you're down and you've got
nothing left to give Someone is there saying
you can do this. I see how strong you are You're
an athlete. I had never been called an athlete
in my life. I didn't do sports You know I did
more creative things like i was a band geek and
and stuff like that and so to be called an athlete
and to be part of this tribe was just um it was
it was an amazing two years of my life and i
credit my sister jennifer for getting me into
that um although she did trick me into it so
um but it it turned out it turned out well did
the gym reopen after coven the gym did reopen
after covid it took a good few months and and
you know i will say one of the biggest mistakes
in my life was not going back at that point i
was just incredibly stressed working in a hospital
during coven and i probably needed crossfit more
than anything during that time but i didn't go
back to it and i i have regrets about that it
was never too late that's what people keep telling
me and i'm just like oh man i i had so many injuries
in crossfit um just you know because being a
you know a beginner and all that but I just loved
it. My favorite was the Fran. I loved the Fran
and, you know, my best PR was my deadlift was
105 pounds, you know, so proud of that too. So,
you know, I look back on that with just a lot
of happiness and oddly I've wanted to approach.
the gym owner to start like a crossfit for seniors
because what do seniors need what do they start
having problems with balance right they start
falling they lose their community especially
if they're retired so they lose their tribe and
they are lonely a lot of times and You know,
if I was queen for a day and I had all the money
that I needed to start a senior CrossFit gym,
I would do it in a heartbeat. So my gym where
I train, they were CrossFit for a long time.
They still do a CrossFit class. Actually, one
of our main coaches now is one of the young athletes.
I don't know exactly where he placed, but he
was extremely good in the kind of teen divisions.
um and uh but we moved to a thing called uh wolf
brigade programming so it's a lot more but they're
all strict movement pretty much um there's maces
there's kettlebells and it's so good but it's
funny what you were talking about with the community
i was in a funk yesterday just jumped back in
after having that horrendous flu that was going
around about a month ago. And so, you know, there's
always that, the older you get, you know, it
hurts even more when you first start going back.
And I went back and I came home and I told my
wife, I was like, I feel really good. And I think
it was less about the exercise and it was more
about just going there and, you know, being with
the friends that I've trained with for years
and having that community and joking and they
were playing some silly music and it was that
part. just like you said the tribal yeah so getting
getting the programming to be switched so there's
more strict stuff because that's what you need
scaled but strict as you get older you don't
need to be you know ripping things off the ground
and doing kipping pull -ups and those kind of
things um but getting that community back so
i i concur a thousand percent i think that's
exactly what you should do next that might be
my next big endeavor james Yeah, I just would
love to see that because I'm in that community
now, right? I mean, when I retired at 57, so
that was an early retirement. And I feel blessed
every day that I could do that financially. And
now it's been, I just turned 61. And, you know,
I am feeling different physically the last, you
know, four years. I've done a lot of things in
retirement to help me physically. I walk, you
know, many miles a day. Walking is my thing.
But I still am cognizant that, you know, as a
postmenopausal woman, I need to be strength training.
So I just recently joined my gym and I'm lifting
weights. But it's not the same as CrossFit. I
will always be this CrossFit fan. There's a lot
to be said for it. And, yeah. If anybody out
there wants to invest with me in a senior CrossFit
gym, let's do it. One more area before we kind
of round off with some closing questions. You
touched on working during COVID. You're in this
pediatric neonate environment. Without loading
the question at all, what was your perspective
of those years as far as the amount of issues
that you saw with the patients themselves and
the impact on your men and women that you work
with? Yeah, thanks for talking about that. So
thankfully, during COVID, we had zero babies
that were infected with COVID. Now, we had many
mothers that were infected with COVID, and they
were quite ill. Some of this was pre -vaccine,
some of this was post -vaccine. We had a lot
of mothers that were very reticent, hesitant,
whatever the word is, to take the vaccine while
pregnant or while they were even planning to
get pregnant because at that time there wasn't
a lot of research. And so we had a lot of moms
that were going into labor early. because they
had such severe COVID disease. We lost a lot
of moms to COVID. So we had a lot of premature
babies. Moms went to the ICU. They came in with
like pneumonia. They came in with sepsis. They
were very, very sick. And again, as we spoke
earlier, they had a lot of comorbidities. So
a lot of these moms were older. They had type
2 diabetes. They were obese. So all these comorbidities.
And they landed in the ICU and they were put
on ventilators, very, very sick. Their babies
were delivered very, very early. So 25, 26 weeks.
These moms stayed in the ICU for months and ultimately
died, never got to meet their babies. So being
a nurse, seeing these families, you know, ripped
apart, it was devastating. So we didn't have
any babies that had COVID, but their families
definitely suffered. I'll say the nurses suffered
in terms of staffing during COVID, of course,
was very crazy because all resources were going
to the units that had COVID patients, which were
many. So our nurses, if we weren't If our census
was down in the NICU, they had to go to other
departments and actually take care of patients
with COVID. And this was a stretch for many of
our nurses in the NICU because nurses that go
into NICU nursing, they make it a career. They
don't usually leave. So they really had not taken
care of adults. and adults with such severe disease.
So many of our nurses ended up getting COVID
and being out with COVID. So it impacted our
staffing dramatically. Politically, what happened
pre -vaccine, so when COVID was first making
its debut, And I know that you've talked about
this because it happened in the firefighting
community as well. Nurses were hailed as heroes.
We had the banners outside of our hospital. Thank
you, heroes. It was crazy, James. We were getting
sent gifts. We're arriving on our unit. Food.
We were getting sent food by organizations, by
restaurants in our community. It was kids in
schools were writing us letters. And I always
say nurses don't do it for the applause because
we don't. And neither do really any first responders
do it for the applause. But for the first time
in our careers, we were getting a lot of applause.
And it felt good. I can't lie. It felt good.
Well, then the vaccine came. And there was so
much controversy. It split just like it split
so many families. It split so many nurses, so
many doctors. We had one side that was saying,
get the vaccine. It's completely safe. The other
side was, you know, this is a conspiracy to kill
us all and don't get it. And then we had nurses
that were. refusing to get the vaccine and were
being fired. We had nurses that were leaving
to work in other institutions that weren't requiring
nurses to have vaccines. So after having this
really high point where the community was rallying
around us and thanking us for our care and then
immediately to dive into this just divisive community
where, you know, everybody on social media was
like, oh, the hospital is doing this and the
hospital's lying about their COVID numbers to
get more money. And meanwhile, the nurses on
the ground, the boots on the ground that are
caring for the patients are going home with,
you know, complete moral distress because they're
having to cut corners and they're worried about
their. patients dying. They're worried about
infecting their own families with COVID. My siblings
and I were caring for my 85 -year -old mom, who
was, what, 82 at the time during COVID and had
some comorbidities. We didn't want to even go
visit her because we were afraid of her dying
from COVID. It was brutal. It was brutal. And
after talking to so many nurses now, a lot of
nurses left after COVID. And I will say that
that was a mitigating factor in my retiring from
nursing. After COVID, it was just like, oh, my
God, I can't believe, you know, I made it through
that. Yeah, it was brutal. Well, this is what's
so important is hearing everyone that was, you
know, boots on the ground, because by that point
I was out the fire service. So I was watching
these guys, you know, get off the rig, covered
head to toe in full PPE. And, you know, only
one person going in and, you know, all these
different precautions. But what was so sad is
you talked about it perfectly. I mean, like you
had these two extremes and the middle. common
sense voice was absent it was completely politicized
at the expense of the people who died the first
responders the medical professionals and what
really angers me is after the fact it was very
much like well we don't want to talk about it
now it's like whoa time out now is the time that
we do need to talk about it what are the lessons
that we've learned what should we do differently
next time and you know going back to what we've
talked about already What are you going to do
about all these, you know, these issues, these
health issues that the country is continuing
to suffer from? Because this next virus, whatever
you call it, is going to sweep through and we're
going to have the same exact thing. Why are you
not bending over backwards now to bolster, you
know, the health care professions, bolster the
first responder professions and initiate programs
that make, if not our children, you know, I mean.
At least our children, if not the adults as well,
start turning the corner on this. But none of
that happened. And it was, again, both sides
of the aisle. And it just infuriates me as everyone
was up in arms about these deaths. And now it's
like, well, you just don't care anymore. And
all these people that put their necks out. Some
of whom aren't with us anymore because they were
overworked and sleep deprived and our nurses
and doctors and paramedics and police officers
were so vulnerable because of the way they were
work that we lost a lot of them. So I think it's
so important to hear testimonies like yours to
honor the people that we lost, the patients and
the people helping them. Yeah, we lost so many
nurses, physicians, so many people. And you're
absolutely right. After it was all said and done,
there were crickets chirping. And man, I'm so
glad that I'm not going to be there for the next
thing that happens. But I am so worried about
my nursing colleagues, my physician colleagues
that are going to have to handle this. Absolutely.
All right. Well, you mentioned Sebastian Junger's
tribe. First of the closing questions. Are there
any other books that you love to recommend? Yes,
I am a big reader and I recommend anything by
Ryan Holiday. Have you had Ryan on the podcast?
I have not. And I need to. I mean, he's been
so many times, even even Josh Brolin, who I was
talking to not long ago. I'm not trying to name
drop, but he's been on the show a couple of times
now. He absolutely loves The Daily Stoic. So
I know that, you know, there's so many people
that are impacted by Ryan's work. I need to get
him on the show. Yes, I've actually read The
Daily Stoic. Ego is the enemy. The obstacle is
the way. Discipline is destiny. Courage is calling.
I've read all of his books, including The Daily
Dad, and I get his Daily Dad newsletter. Highly
recommend it. People may wonder, why is this?
61 year old woman getting the daily dad newsletter
and i will say it has made me a better grandparent
you know i have a daughter she's 38 and you have
one chance right uh who said that one shot you
have one shot eminem it's a great song but um
with all the stuff that you know i brought as
a parent from my childhood you know She's a great
person. She turned out great despite me. But
now my grandkids, I get to see it from a different
perspective. And it's beautiful. And so I highly
recommend The Daily Dad really for anybody. Grandparents,
parents, it's awesome. And then the other author
that I love is Austin Kleon. He's an author and
an artist out of Austin, Texas. he's a creative
i love his books um steal like an artist and
show your work and i think steel like an artist
really resonates with me as far as with what
you do james and you know he's always saying
like um and and we talked about this through
instagram because i was wanting to learn how
to repost and you post all this great content
that is just it's all about kindness and caring
and humanity and um and and i just love it and
you do those reposts and that's kind of like
steel like an artist you're you're observing
other people's work and you love it and you want
to show it off and you're giving credit to that
other artist and then show your work is great
because what we do especially in podcasting That's
something that we should be proud of and we should
talk about it and we should always give credit
where it's due. So those two books I highly recommend
as well. Brilliant. What about films and or documentaries?
so films um i'm not i don't watch a lot of movies
but i will recommend one that i saw that came
out in i want to say 2004 2005 and it's called
crash and i loved crash for so many reasons but
um So Crash tells the story, all these different
stories of people living in Los Angeles. And
the only actor that I can remember is Sandra
Bullock. The other ones, I see their faces, but
I can't really remember who they are. But it
was so good. There was like this good cop, bad
cop. There was what it's like to be a black man
in Los Angeles. There was sexual assault. In
the beginning, you didn't see how all these people
were connected, but then all the dots started
to connect, and I thought it was just really
brilliantly done, and I loved it. And it just
shows how we are all connected. So I love that
one. Documentaries, anything in the Blue Planet
series, anything having to do with nature. I
love any nature documentary. My sister actually
edits for the BBC a lot of times. She's worked
with Dave Attenborough and some other ones. So
you've probably seen some of her work. I was
going to say anything narrated by Dave Attenborough
because I am a sucker for a British accent, James.
Complete sucker. Well, it's funny you mentioned
Crash too because that I will give credit to.
That is absolutely one of the inspirations for
Kinder. And the reason being, he does such a
beautiful job of making the viewer think a certain
way at the beginning. And then at the end, you're
like, oh my God, like they've turned everything
on its head. And I didn't try to write a firefighter's
crash by any means, but it was that same thing.
It's like, start off with the way people think
and then lead them down a journey. And then at
the end, see if they question the way they've
been indoctrinated to think by that point. And
it goes back to the bum. Is it still a bum by
the time you finish with that book? Or are you
looking at the person who had an experience that
sent them down that spiral? Yes, I totally see
that now in Kinder. And you're right. It's like
we start with, we just get this view of how we
think this person is. We're so quick to judge,
right? We're so quick to try to figure out who
this person is. And I don't know if that. happens
in the lay community but definitely in the nursing
and first responder community we have to be really
quick to assess the situation and we tend to
do that a lot and we tend to end up wrong in
many cases right because we really have to delve
into there's more just behind what i'm seeing
or what i'm hearing you know there's yeah Great,
great film and great book too. And I'm so glad
that your book is going to make it to film. I
can't wait. I'm so thrilled for you. Yeah. I
don't know how it's going to get there. Lots
and lots of seeds planted. So we're going to
navigate a journey, but it's kind of exciting
to see, you know, which way it goes, who ends
up being behind this. I won't put it out there
yet because this person hasn't even been approached,
but there's people that have written some of
the most beautiful or directed some of the most
beautiful films and written the most beautiful
screenplays that are on the radar. So to me,
it's got to be a humanist that gets it, that
wants to change. But even Crash, I've got a friend
who is good friends with the guy that made Crash.
So we'll see. We shall see. Oh my gosh, that's
awesome. All right. Well, then the next pair
of questions, speaking of... great people. Is
there a person that you'd recommend to come on
this podcast as a guest? Yes. And I have to give
a quick backstory here. So you know this, James,
but I always admired that you ask people for
their guest recommendations, because I think
you have found so many great guests by doing
that. And so I reached out to you because I really
wanted to do that. And I reached out to you and
I said, James, I really love that you asked this.
I want to ask it too. How do you feel about it?
And I'm laughing because your response was just
so, like, matter of fact, you're like, yeah,
go for it. Like, I'm not the first person that's
done this. Like, you can ask anything you want.
But I wanted to give it respect in so far as,
like, not be, like, plagiarism, right? So, yes,
I do have a guest recommendation. And this person
is my sister, Jennifer Caposella. And so you
might think I'm biased. Of course, I love my
sister. But I also see who she is as a person
and what she's accomplished as a nurse. And I'm
just in awe of her every day. So Jennifer and
I are 11 years apart. I'm her senior. she has
just grown into this compassionate leader Jennifer
will do anything for anybody at any time no questions
asked and that's family friends employees fellow
nurses she is just like one of those people that
would give you the shirt off her back she is
So professionally, long time labor and delivery
nurse. And I learned how to be a better nurse
by watching and listening to my sister. She then
she would always get the sickest patients on
the unit and they would often have to go to the
intensive care unit. So she would go with them.
And then she came to love the intensive care
unit. So she became an intensive care nurse and
was absolutely fantastic at it. And then she
went into flight nursing, so longtime flight
nurse. And her journey didn't stop there. She
became the program director for Northern California
for a company called Reach, which is under Global
Medical Response, GMR. And I have to say, I love
your interview of the two gentlemen from GMR
that talked about nurse navigation. That was
absolutely fantastic. But Jennifer is part of
that company. And she she just what she's accomplished
in her 49 years is amazing. She's a private pilot.
And I for somebody who has a fear of flying,
man, I just give her all kinds of respect. She's
been a longtime CrossFit participant. Like I
said earlier, she got me into CrossFit. She tricked
me into it. But she's great. She has three kids.
She has three grandkids who she absolutely adores.
And she has many, many stories to tell. She's
just a great person. And I'm sure she'd be a
wonderful guest for you. Beautiful. Well, I would
love to get her on if you're able to help make
that happen. Yes, I will. And going back to asking
permission for that closing question, I think
I remember saying, people ask about other things.
I didn't invent the English language. they say
there's no such thing as an original thought
so going back to crediting the artist I mean
I think this is this is it this is this beautiful
ripple effect of you know one person does something
like oh that's a good idea let me do that too
and I've had people you know firefighters say
the same kind of thing like oh I'm thinking of
starting a podcast but I don't want to tread
on your toes I'm like I didn't invent podcasting
and I'm not the only firefighter like go for
it we need as many voices as we can get out there
so that you know someone who listens to me and
it's like nails on a chalkboard maybe you're
the one that they'll want to listen to instead
so you know but but I I was touched by it because
of the fact that it was that respect thing even
though you know the response was obviously like
absolutely you know I don't know how I came up
with that particular thing but I'm sure it was
from listening to someone else and this is the
you know the domino effect in a positive way
well I love it and I loved your um just your
humility like wow go for it you know i don't
own that phrase so absolutely well the very last
question before we make sure where everyone can
find your podcast the conversing nurse and anywhere
else what do you do to decompress we talked about
this a little bit earlier in all my walking and
i found a latin phrase because i love latin by
the way i'm a huge fan of latin And I guess that's
why I love Ryan Holiday so much, because he's
always quoting the ancient Stoics and Latin phrases,
memento mori and all that stuff. But there's
a Latin phrase called solvator ambulando. It
is solved by walking. And I can tell you that
I have solved so many questions, conflicts, just
by getting out of my head and going for a walk.
um it's therapeutic i absolutely love walking
in the spring in the fall sometimes in the winter
our winters are kind of mild definitely not in
the summer i have to go to the gym and walk which
i don't love walking at the gym but i still do
it because it it just when you're doing something
with your body or your hands it takes your mind
offline and then all of a sudden these answers
just start coming to you and it's a beautiful
thing. So that's what I do. I couldn't agree
more. I think I've said this a few times on here.
When I walk my dog, I leave my phone at home,
which in itself doesn't sound like some grand
gesture, but in this, you know, engaged technological
world that we're in just once or twice a day,
you know, 30 minutes being off where it's just
me and my thoughts, a hundred percent, something
will hit me and I'll be like, Oh. Where did that
come from? That will be part of whatever project
I'm working on. Or like you said, something you've
been worrying about, you go for a walk and you
come back and you're like, well, wait a second,
the obvious answer is right here. So I think
the white noise of modern 2025 living is so detrimental
to just that quiet moment where your brain can
process a problem and say, oh, this is the obvious
answer. So yeah, just side note, I couldn't agree
more with simply walking without any device.
All right. Well, then for people listening, the
podcast is The Conversing Nurse. Where can they
find that? And then are there any other places
online or social media they can reach out to
you? Yes, thank you. So I'm on Instagram at The
Conversing Nurse Podcast. I am on LinkedIn. If
you just search Michelle Harris, you'll find
me there. LinkedIn is a great platform for meeting
all kinds of people. I have a website, theconversingnursepodcast
.com. And my email is theconversingnursepodcast
at gmail .com. And my podcast can be found on
all listening platforms. So take a listen. Brilliant.
Well, I want to thank you so much. It's been
such an amazing conversation. You and I have
gone back and forth now on social media for a
while, but all the different layers to your story
from the pediatric and neonate, the COVID, the
health of your profession, the health of the
nation, it's been such an important conversation.
So I want to thank you so, so much for being
so generous with your time and coming on the
Behind the Shield podcast today. Thank you, James.
And I just have to say thank you for everything
you're doing for your community. And it is far
reaching. It has not just stayed within your
community. It has obviously reached my nursing
community. It's given me a different perspective,
a different lens to look through. And your work
is so valuable. I cherish it. And I cherish you.
And thank you for having me on.