WEBVTT

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Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. My

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name's James Gearing, and this is episode 181,

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and I'm so excited to bring to you my next guest.

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We've been trying to make this happen for well

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over a year, and we were finally able to sit

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down and record this. If you have seen the movie

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or read the book A Prayer Before Dawn, that was

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Billy's story. So Billy Moore is a fellow Brit.

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We talk about his early childhood. He found himself

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in prison in England, then got out of addiction,

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got clean, went traveling to Thailand. And then

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after another blip, he ended up in prison in

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Thailand. And that's what the movie and the book

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are mainly focusing on. and the nightmarish conditions,

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how he ultimately ended up fighting Muay Thai

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in this prison, and then how he was able to get

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back to the UK. So an incredible life story,

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some extremely interesting insight into the effects

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of early trauma and the grasp of addiction and

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where it can send you. But I think a very, very

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powerful, inspiring story, and I was so glad

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that we were able to make it happen. So with

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that being said, as I always say, please go to

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your podcast apps, subscribe to the show, leave

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feedback. I love reading the feedback that you

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guys are leaving. And most importantly, share

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these incredible stories. And after that, make

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sure that you at least see the movie or read

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the book, A Prayer Before Dawn. And then when

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he releases it, Billy's new book will be coming

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out in a few months, and I'll make sure to post

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that as well. So with all that being said, I

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introduce to you, Billy Moore. Enjoy. Well, Billy,

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I just want to start by saying thank you so much

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for coming on the show. I know that we've been

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going back and forth for a while now. And having

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read the book and knowing your story, this is

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really, you know, a story I think that people

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should hear. So I want to just say thank you

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first for taking the time to speak to the audience.

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Thank you. It's really nice to get the chance

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to be here. Speak to your audience regarding

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my story. All right, brilliant. So I always start

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at the very, very beginning. So if you wouldn't

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mind, where were you born? I was born in Liverpool,

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UK, England. Brilliant. And then what was your

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family dynamic when you were young? What did

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your parents do and how many brothers and sisters

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did you have? There were six of us. I'm the oldest

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out of six. My dad, I've never known him to where

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he drank a lot. The house was kind of... Very

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dysfunctional. There was a lot of violence. There

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was a lot of anger. My mum worked every hour,

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God sent. She'd done a lot of little jobs, like

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working in pubs and little bits and bobs, really,

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just to make ends meet. And growing up, it was

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like I don't think I was ever allowed to be a

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child, really. I had to care for five other kids.

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It's one of my other siblings, really. Yeah,

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so you were kind of like almost that father figure

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when you got a little bit older then. Yeah, yeah.

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I grew up pretty quick, honestly, to Liverpool.

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Right. And then when, you know, you said your

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dad was an alcoholic. Was there abuse within

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the firehouse? I mean, the firehouse, excuse

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me. Was there abuse within the household? Yeah,

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that was subjected to a lot of, like, violence

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and kind of physical kind of beatings and name

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-calling. never anything other than that really

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yeah because the reason i i like to always ask

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people about their early life is when you know

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we're going to talk about some things obviously

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ending up in prison is kind of one of the the

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cores of your story but we as first responders

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police and fire and ems we see these households

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with these young kids that are there you know

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in in these different states and you know you

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go to some of these households you're like my

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god how are these kids gonna come out of this

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and and function you know normally in society

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because some some of these places are just you

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know horrendous the kids have nothing there's

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no food in the fridge and yet you know there's

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the parents are taking care of themselves or

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they're drinking or they're on drugs and you

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know we we see that and it's interesting talking

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to people like you where we see you know how

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that plays out further in in life oh yeah definitely

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i mean Now you put it that way, I can kind of

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paint a picture for you. Growing up in Liverpool

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in the house that I was living in with my dad,

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the way he was, because he was a big man and

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it was quite intimidating. He drank a lot, to

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be fair. I used to think that was normal. But

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with drinking, violence and anger and outbursts,

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and there was no love in the household at all.

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There was a lot of fear. And I felt... like this

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need to escape from my own home and spend time

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on the streets with with groups of lads and you

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know and they were my peers and you know by standing

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on those corners you know i was kind of led down

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a different path now my dad was a boxer and i

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wanted to kind of impress him and prove to him

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that i could fight and you know gain his acceptance

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and his love and approval No matter what I did,

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it kind of just fell flat on its face, basically.

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So, yeah, it was like I was scared. I was young.

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I felt really vulnerable. I had low self -esteem.

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You know, I remember getting my ear bits off

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when I was 14 years old, 14, 15, in a street

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fight. And that was like, that affected me massively

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as well, you know, like around girls and growing

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up. So there was a lot. a lot of stuff that impacted

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me youth as we grew up yeah and that's the thing

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i mean you you see that with with you know it

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doesn't have to be a specific you know economic

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scale it's not just the poor but in a household

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where there isn't that that father or mother

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mother figure you know raising their kids and

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showing them this is normal even to the kids

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that you see now when you when you're coaching

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that mentor in the boxing gym you know these

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these real men who are who are saying look this

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is this is how you conduct yourself this is how

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you treat a woman this is how you protect the

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weak you know if you don't have that like you

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said it's a free -for -all and a lot of the kids

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whether it's in england or america find themselves

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in these gangs with the absolute worst role models

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yeah well what i want to My first story that

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I wrote a prayer before dawn, it was more brief

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on growing up, giving people a brief introduction

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on my background and probably the way I was conditioned

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from an early childhood to become what I became.

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Whereas this second story kind of delves a little

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bit more into growing up. It delves into kind

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of like, you know, the way I felt in the household,

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the fear I was subjected to. having to watch

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my mother getting beat up on a regular basis,

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you know, hearing the screams and not being able

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to protect her because it was really small. And

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my mum said to me when I was about nine years

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old, one Christmas, what was your life? And I

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said, I want weights. And she looked at me, like,

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shocked and said, why would you want weights?

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Why wouldn't you want, like, a bike or, you know,

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a Millennium Falcon from Star Wars? Because it

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was all that rage at the time. Because I feel

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like I need to be big and strong and protected.

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And I remember saying that. And that was something

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that really resonated with me for years. Not

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being able to kind of protect my mum and, you

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know, being in fear of being attacked and hated.

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You know what I mean? Yeah. When you worry, I

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mean, when you've got a household full of kids

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and, you know, you're being abused like that,

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then you're vulnerable. And like you said, that's

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fear ruling it. at some point you know violence

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is going to play in there's no question yeah

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so it definitely plays a big role in in our turns

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out you know i know we have choices and i made

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decisions and you know there's a lot of poor

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choices i was conditioned to believe um it was

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okay to to do those things because it's like

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monkey she monkey do that kind of attitude you

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know um You know, dating is your role model.

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Your father's supposed to be your role model.

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And my mum, because there were so many of us,

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she had six of us in a short space of time because

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she had six of us and six children within eight

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years. So you can imagine her hands were full.

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And she never had the time to, like, be there

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for each and every one of us in that way. So

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it was quite difficult. So we never, there was

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that lack of love. Although I knew I was, it

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wasn't kind of into me. Yeah. Now, what age did

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you start boxing? I started to box at the age

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of 13. I joined a club in speaking Liverpool

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called St. Ambrose ABC, which was then sponsored

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by a furniture company called Gemini. I first

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decided to go, I joined a karate club, Shotokan.

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I did Shotokan. Keon Kata, because it was all

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about Bruce Lee back in the day. You know, we

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entered the dragon and all that stuff. I don't

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know, I just kind of found myself doing that

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combat. I was never a team player, if that makes

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sense. No one had ever passed me the ball in

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school. Yeah, that does make sense if you'd seen

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me when I was young. I felt independently better

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off doing my own thing, really. Now, did you

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find any kind of mentors in the karate dojo or

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the boxing gym when you were younger? Not so

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much the karate, but in boxing, you know, I had

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a good trainer. He took his time with me and,

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you know, I learned to kind of box pretty quick,

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you know, and within a few months of learning,

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I was in the ring fighting and competing. Right,

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and what was your boxing career like? I mean,

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what were your accolades? I think I had about

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16 fights and I've lost about four. I won my

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first five on the run and then I lost my sixth

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in Ireland and then it kind of affected my confidence.

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You know, and I lost a couple on the run then

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because I felt like, whoa, you know what I mean?

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So on top of the Wales I faced and then all of

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a sudden I'm getting... And that's what happened.

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And then after about 16 fights, you know, during

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the summer holidays, the breaks from the boxing

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shows, you know, standing on the corners, away

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from the arm. You know, one thing led to another,

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you know, drinking, then it became drugs. And

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then I snowballed quickly into addiction. Right,

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and with the boxing, like... Like you said, you

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got the weights and you wanted to protect your

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mum. Did you find you went from the vulnerable

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kid to almost the bully because you suddenly

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realised that you were powerful and you were

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able to inflict violence now? No, I think I became

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more of someone who was sick inside, being sick

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inside and wouldn't tolerate. I was definitely

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against people who bullied. I remember writing

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this in my first story. I was like a rebel without

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a cause. I was always being the underdog's corner.

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After watching it and witnessing it and being

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subjected to it, it was something that I didn't

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like. Yeah. Actually, I was talking to someone

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yesterday about that, the concept of violence.

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People think, well... the answer is to not be

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violent at all. And I think that the answer is

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actually to be capable of violence so you can

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protect the weak, but not always resort to it

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if you can get around it. But if you're not a

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threat to the bully, then you're not going to

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be able to deter them from being a bully in the

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first place. Yeah. Yeah, no, I always felt I

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was quite... I just stand up for myself, you

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know. It got to a point where I never had ever

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went looking for it. I was never one of those

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kids you want to do. just scrapped everyone it

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was always like if it came to me then yeah you

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know it happened and i wouldn't you know i wouldn't

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tolerate it or accept it yeah all right so then

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you you were talking about getting into addiction

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was that what led you to your first stint in

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prison yeah definitely you know it was um it

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was a time no spiral you know picked up a drug

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from the from an early age and it was Within

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a matter of months, I was using class A's. I

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was committing crimes to fund a habit that I

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had developed. I was doing things that I didn't

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want to do. I was going to places that I didn't

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want to go. I felt myself isolated and separated

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from society. I was bringing shame on my family.

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I was bringing shame on myself. I had no integrity.

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My morals and my principles and my values were

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not doing that. My drugs became more important

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than anyone else. I became a monster. I was driven

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by something more powerful than me and I couldn't

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stop. No matter what, if you put me in a cell

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and I could pass a lie detector test, I'd never,

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never do it again. I really believed in it because

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I wanted it so much. And then I'd get back out

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and within... seconds I was you know that choice

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was taken away from me as soon as I picked up

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again you know I think it'll be different this

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time you know I'll try and do something you know

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you know that right we repeat the same mistake

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and expect a different result and it was just

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a ball of insanity well that's what was happening

00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:25.399
and then it wasn't until like years later that

00:14:25.399 --> 00:14:28.100
I understood that I had no awareness and there

00:14:28.100 --> 00:14:30.019
was no education and there was no support there

00:14:30.019 --> 00:14:33.840
was no guidance and In them times, it was just

00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:35.860
like, here's a key and here's a door. We're going

00:14:35.860 --> 00:14:38.299
to shut it and we'll open you when you finish

00:14:38.299 --> 00:14:41.340
your sentence. And that was it. And that's how

00:14:41.340 --> 00:14:44.179
it was for a long time. What was the initial

00:14:44.179 --> 00:14:48.399
drug that really got you in trouble? The first

00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:52.299
one was, I'd say it started with the gateway

00:14:52.299 --> 00:14:55.000
drug, cannabis, and then it led straight on to

00:14:55.000 --> 00:15:02.149
heroin and crack cocaine. Right. Excuse me. That's

00:15:02.149 --> 00:15:05.230
something that I see from the outside looking

00:15:05.230 --> 00:15:07.029
in. Obviously, I haven't ever been in prison

00:15:07.029 --> 00:15:10.850
and I'm observing both back home in England and

00:15:10.850 --> 00:15:14.529
here now in America. But it seems like the way

00:15:14.529 --> 00:15:16.149
that we've done this, I'll just put it that way,

00:15:16.190 --> 00:15:18.029
the way that we do in prison, the way that we're

00:15:18.029 --> 00:15:21.470
viewing drugs and addiction doesn't seem to be

00:15:21.470 --> 00:15:23.990
working because we keep churning these men and

00:15:23.990 --> 00:15:25.809
women out and then they go back to their addiction

00:15:25.809 --> 00:15:27.230
and they're back in prison. It's this vicious

00:15:27.230 --> 00:15:31.409
circle, the revolving door. What was, without

00:15:31.409 --> 00:15:35.049
loading the question, what was the addiction

00:15:35.049 --> 00:15:38.730
help that you had both inside and outside when

00:15:38.730 --> 00:15:42.750
you were trying to kick the habit? Absolutely

00:15:42.750 --> 00:15:45.269
nothing. It was just, I'll give you a prescription

00:15:45.269 --> 00:15:48.090
to get off drugs and give you different drugs

00:15:48.090 --> 00:15:50.730
to come off the drugs that you're on. So all

00:15:50.730 --> 00:15:55.070
it became was a vicious cycle of using different

00:15:55.070 --> 00:15:58.029
substances, different drugs to come off drugs.

00:15:59.620 --> 00:16:02.019
There was never any identification. There was

00:16:02.019 --> 00:16:08.120
never any... I don't know. It was prescription

00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:10.200
drugs that they give you. It was no help. And

00:16:10.200 --> 00:16:14.759
the prison was like, you know, there was never

00:16:14.759 --> 00:16:19.759
no help there either at all. So I couldn't really,

00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:23.000
hands on heart, say that there was any support.

00:16:23.220 --> 00:16:27.600
Maybe there'd be like... you know someone's telling

00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:29.379
me to get my shit together and that was about

00:16:29.379 --> 00:16:33.000
as good as it got yeah yeah because i mean again

00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:35.980
what a great example of how they're doing it

00:16:35.980 --> 00:16:37.399
well and i'll be very brief because people have

00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:39.279
heard this you know several times now but in

00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:43.779
portugal back in 2000 they decriminalized drugs

00:16:43.779 --> 00:16:47.240
as far as an addict not not selling not not smuggling

00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:50.110
but the addicts themselves And so they became

00:16:50.110 --> 00:16:52.629
patients instead of criminals. So if you come

00:16:52.629 --> 00:16:55.149
in and you're arrested and you're found in possession

00:16:55.149 --> 00:16:58.710
of a personal amount, then you get filtered through

00:16:58.710 --> 00:17:02.110
an addiction program where they have addiction

00:17:02.110 --> 00:17:05.990
help and psychological therapy and job creation

00:17:05.990 --> 00:17:08.950
and all these things. And they've literally reversed

00:17:08.950 --> 00:17:11.910
their epidemic in Portugal from the worst in

00:17:11.910 --> 00:17:15.069
Europe to the best. And that's what I'm seeing

00:17:15.069 --> 00:17:18.769
is... if we're just locking up our addicts and

00:17:18.769 --> 00:17:20.990
then you know obviously i'm sure in prison the

00:17:20.990 --> 00:17:22.710
addiction is probably terrible as well as we

00:17:22.710 --> 00:17:27.190
see certainly in later in your story um but you're

00:17:27.190 --> 00:17:29.150
not you're not treating why these men and women

00:17:29.150 --> 00:17:31.190
are drinking why they're taking drugs maybe even

00:17:31.190 --> 00:17:33.710
you know why they're violent which is the underlying

00:17:33.710 --> 00:17:36.130
trauma and you're never ever going to kick that

00:17:36.130 --> 00:17:39.039
until that's taken care of, that's addressed.

00:17:39.319 --> 00:17:42.279
And if we're not dealing with those issues in

00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:44.339
or out of prison, either way, it should be both,

00:17:44.500 --> 00:17:46.539
then we're never going to fix this addiction.

00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:50.220
Yeah, and I agree with you. There's a lot of

00:17:50.220 --> 00:17:52.279
underlying kind of contributing factors to why

00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:55.579
people use. However, Dave, you know, and I'm

00:17:55.579 --> 00:17:58.099
speaking from experience, for years and years,

00:17:58.259 --> 00:18:00.720
probably, you know, people were kind of trying

00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:03.240
to help me and offer me support and guidance,

00:18:03.339 --> 00:18:06.019
but I wasn't ready or willing to listen at that

00:18:06.019 --> 00:18:08.789
stage. because I was just kind of blocking out

00:18:08.789 --> 00:18:12.970
all these demons that would torment me. You know,

00:18:13.049 --> 00:18:15.549
I'd rip my shoulder apart every evening and I

00:18:15.549 --> 00:18:18.849
couldn't face reality on a daily basis. So I

00:18:18.849 --> 00:18:21.930
kind of want to block it out. It was only when,

00:18:22.049 --> 00:18:26.329
you know, the drugs couldn't do that for me no

00:18:26.329 --> 00:18:29.529
more that I had to surrender from the art and

00:18:29.529 --> 00:18:30.950
go, you know what, I need to kind of just put

00:18:30.950 --> 00:18:32.529
my hands up and go, I can't do this no more.

00:18:32.569 --> 00:18:35.509
This is beating me. It's like getting in the

00:18:35.509 --> 00:18:40.680
boxing ring. coming out back in blue and then

00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:42.980
you know getting back in again and you're still

00:18:42.980 --> 00:18:45.799
getting beat you know sometimes you go look we're

00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:47.519
going to throw the towel in Bill you ain't going

00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:50.200
to win this competition but you just keep getting

00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:53.079
back in day after day after day with a gorilla

00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:55.819
and you're thinking you know what I'm not going

00:18:55.819 --> 00:18:58.640
to win this and then it comes to a time when

00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:02.960
you go okay hands up that's it yeah Yeah, well,

00:19:03.059 --> 00:19:05.519
especially if you're using the same strategy

00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:07.079
each time and you keep getting beaten instead

00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:09.779
of reimagining a strategy where maybe you'll

00:19:09.779 --> 00:19:14.160
overcome it. Yeah, definitely. Right, well, I'd

00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:16.539
love to kind of transition into Thailand. So

00:19:16.539 --> 00:19:19.220
what initially took you to Thailand back in,

00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:25.519
was it 2005? Is that right? 2005, correct. What

00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:27.799
happened, what initially took me there? Yeah,

00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:36.200
yeah. incarcerated in prisons in the UK, using

00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:39.299
drugs, so I finally kind of made that decision

00:19:39.299 --> 00:19:41.779
that something had to change and I went into

00:19:41.779 --> 00:19:44.559
a rehabilitation programme. And I asked, it was

00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:47.000
me, put my hands up, said, look, I need help.

00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:51.819
And the minute I asked for help, it came. That's

00:19:51.819 --> 00:19:54.220
what I'm trying to say. You've got to be willing

00:19:54.220 --> 00:19:57.220
at that stage, you know what I mean? It came

00:19:57.220 --> 00:20:03.549
in the form of a rehab in Bristol. In 2004, I

00:20:03.549 --> 00:20:06.630
got myself clean, I got myself involved in recovery,

00:20:06.890 --> 00:20:13.150
became aware of my addiction. And then I got

00:20:13.150 --> 00:20:16.029
a passport, a bank account. Things started to

00:20:16.029 --> 00:20:18.609
come into my life. And then I was invited to

00:20:18.609 --> 00:20:23.470
go to Thailand. It was a 12 -week backpacking

00:20:23.470 --> 00:20:25.549
holiday that turned into a five -year nightmare,

00:20:25.630 --> 00:20:29.880
basically. I'm just touching on Bristol for a

00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:33.240
second. So was there a specific event that made

00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:35.319
you put your hands up and say, I'm ready now?

00:20:36.859 --> 00:20:41.700
Yeah, I climbed on a prison roof in Walton, in

00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:47.619
Liverpool, HMP Walton. And it was a negative

00:20:47.619 --> 00:20:50.819
way of asking for help, to be honest. And he

00:20:50.819 --> 00:20:54.279
put me in solitary confinement for over seven

00:20:54.279 --> 00:20:58.900
months. I got a few punches, a few kicks. you

00:20:58.900 --> 00:21:02.440
know, nothing that I didn't expect. But it was

00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:04.400
at that time when I was in that solitary confinement

00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:07.319
for that amount of time that, you know, there

00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:09.980
was no drugs in my body, you know, couldn't access

00:21:09.980 --> 00:21:12.980
any. I started to think about, like, my future,

00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:15.539
you know, and my past and, you know, what the

00:21:15.539 --> 00:21:18.539
arms had done to people and, you know, all the

00:21:18.539 --> 00:21:20.660
guilt and shame kicked in and, you know, then

00:21:20.660 --> 00:21:22.279
I wanted to change. It was like, you know, I

00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:24.380
phoned my mum and I said, Mum, I couldn't even

00:21:24.380 --> 00:21:26.099
speak to my mum. I remember picking up the phone

00:21:26.099 --> 00:21:30.619
and... My mum spoke to me and I couldn't answer

00:21:30.619 --> 00:21:35.200
because just hearing the voice, you know, I had

00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:37.140
a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes and

00:21:37.140 --> 00:21:40.359
I was afraid to blink and there was two, you

00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:42.400
know, officers, prison officers standing next

00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:45.259
to me. And I thought, I can't show any vulnerability

00:21:45.259 --> 00:21:47.819
in front of these. And she just knew, she just

00:21:47.819 --> 00:21:51.140
said, son, get some help. I know you need it.

00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:52.700
And that's what I did. I went back to Michelle

00:21:52.700 --> 00:22:01.839
and I wrote a letter and sat down. That's amazing.

00:22:02.140 --> 00:22:05.500
It's funny because that's not the intervention

00:22:05.500 --> 00:22:07.799
that you would think, solitary confinement, but

00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:09.799
being forced to be there with your own thoughts

00:22:09.799 --> 00:22:12.940
and have to basically face your demons there,

00:22:13.019 --> 00:22:14.960
whether you like it or not. It was a very powerful

00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:20.640
moment for you. No matter what people said or

00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:23.539
tried to do, it was like I had to really sit

00:22:23.539 --> 00:22:26.009
there and be alone with them. And the thoughts

00:22:26.009 --> 00:22:29.109
that came through the back door of my mind when

00:22:29.109 --> 00:22:32.289
invited were really unshavery and, you know,

00:22:32.309 --> 00:22:34.630
wasn't very pleasant. And, you know, it was thoughts

00:22:34.630 --> 00:22:37.029
of suicide. It was thoughts of, like, engineering,

00:22:37.210 --> 00:22:40.410
you know, depression and mental health. And it

00:22:40.410 --> 00:22:43.730
was quite difficult at that time of my life.

00:22:43.950 --> 00:22:47.130
You know, the guy next door to me, he hung himself.

00:22:48.230 --> 00:22:52.890
Oh, God. And I thought I was speaking to him

00:22:52.890 --> 00:22:56.240
10 minutes before he did. And we were, you know,

00:22:56.259 --> 00:22:59.359
and I was just like, just life was so kind of

00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:02.319
like, there was no value in it, you know what

00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:05.559
I mean? People just died and it was like, you

00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:08.900
know, I thought, oh, I need to get something,

00:23:08.960 --> 00:23:12.500
I need to get something shorter there. And that's

00:23:12.500 --> 00:23:13.880
what happened, that was me intervention, it was

00:23:13.880 --> 00:23:16.279
me mum kind of just saying, look, stop fighting,

00:23:16.539 --> 00:23:19.519
just ask for help, son, you need it. She knew,

00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:22.440
she just knew. I didn't even have to respond

00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:25.650
on the phone, she just knew. I was afraid to

00:23:25.650 --> 00:23:28.329
answer because at that time I was quite sad and

00:23:28.329 --> 00:23:34.890
quite hurt and bang, you know, it clicked into

00:23:34.890 --> 00:23:38.089
place and that was my intervention. And what

00:23:38.089 --> 00:23:40.470
did the treatment look like in the facility in

00:23:40.470 --> 00:23:46.769
Bristol? It was a 12 -step programme and it was

00:23:46.769 --> 00:23:50.789
group therapy, people challenging each other's

00:23:50.789 --> 00:23:55.509
behaviours. I was very kind of like... angry

00:23:55.509 --> 00:23:59.049
at the time because I felt their using was a

00:23:59.049 --> 00:24:02.190
tea party compared to mine I was comparing myself

00:24:02.190 --> 00:24:06.289
to their background and you know judging and

00:24:06.289 --> 00:24:09.910
I was in despair with it all I always felt it

00:24:09.910 --> 00:24:12.690
was different and I'd separate myself pretty

00:24:12.690 --> 00:24:16.569
quickly and you know it was it was it was something

00:24:16.569 --> 00:24:19.130
you know that I learned that was called denial

00:24:19.130 --> 00:24:24.319
I was in denial about you know my own problems

00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:27.759
because I felt I was unique when actually when

00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:30.460
we shut down and I discussed with other people

00:24:30.460 --> 00:24:34.839
and then it was identifying with their similar

00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:38.059
kind of problems it was I realized that I wasn't

00:24:38.059 --> 00:24:40.519
alone that wasn't unique and that I wasn't separate

00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:43.539
and different from from the rest of society that

00:24:43.539 --> 00:24:47.779
you know I was just a crazy mixed up kid you

00:24:47.779 --> 00:24:51.119
know from a two -bit sound struggling with life

00:24:51.609 --> 00:24:54.849
on life's terms yeah that's something that we

00:24:54.849 --> 00:24:59.130
see a lot now in in my you know profession the

00:24:59.130 --> 00:25:02.569
police and the fire and ems where a few years

00:25:02.569 --> 00:25:05.329
ago if you said you were struggling you know

00:25:05.329 --> 00:25:07.049
with the ptsd or you know whatever was going

00:25:07.049 --> 00:25:10.089
on your addiction um you know no one would no

00:25:10.089 --> 00:25:11.829
one would reach out and we're getting all these

00:25:11.829 --> 00:25:14.150
suicides and all these horrible things happening

00:25:14.150 --> 00:25:17.130
because they would look at everyone else and

00:25:17.130 --> 00:25:20.009
think everyone else is doing fine i'm the weak

00:25:20.009 --> 00:25:22.869
one So I'm just going to stop being a burden

00:25:22.869 --> 00:25:25.630
and end it. And now, finally, people are realizing,

00:25:25.809 --> 00:25:28.450
no, that's bullshit. It's a facade. Everyone's

00:25:28.450 --> 00:25:31.450
hurting in some way, shape, or form. Can I just

00:25:31.450 --> 00:25:34.329
say something, right, James? Because I was quite

00:25:34.329 --> 00:25:37.910
angry. I had an interview with some national

00:25:37.910 --> 00:25:41.670
TV reporter. She was saying, how come you're

00:25:41.670 --> 00:25:47.160
in prison? Why did you do what you did? you've

00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:49.140
got an international best -selling book and there's

00:25:49.140 --> 00:25:52.559
a movie about your life. Why are you here? What

00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:54.880
went wrong? I don't understand. And I'm like,

00:25:55.039 --> 00:25:58.420
do you know anything about addiction? Have you

00:25:58.420 --> 00:26:00.240
ever looked in the dictionary and looked at the

00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:03.940
definition of what addiction is? You know, when

00:26:03.940 --> 00:26:06.460
you're driven by something, and it's easy for

00:26:06.460 --> 00:26:08.779
people to go, yeah, you know, who haven't had

00:26:08.779 --> 00:26:11.960
that experience and go, nah, he had a choice.

00:26:12.380 --> 00:26:14.519
Well, your choice is taken away when you've got

00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:17.960
something inside you that just won't stop. It's

00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:21.079
like the four horsemen are just taking you to

00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:24.160
the very depths of hell. I'm trying to explain

00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:29.700
to this person who's quite close -minded, and

00:26:29.700 --> 00:26:36.339
it was angering me because I thought... Do you

00:26:36.339 --> 00:26:39.019
think I woke up one morning as one of a career

00:26:39.019 --> 00:26:41.440
and committing crime and taking drugs and spending

00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:43.640
the rest of my life in prison? Do you think I've

00:26:43.640 --> 00:26:52.220
got this fantasy about a great life? I just couldn't

00:26:52.220 --> 00:26:54.539
get the fact that she couldn't understand it,

00:26:54.599 --> 00:26:56.880
probably because she hasn't experienced it. So

00:26:56.880 --> 00:27:00.660
that's where there's no justifying, there's no

00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:03.400
blame, there's no rationalising, there's no miminising.

00:27:03.789 --> 00:27:08.089
Anything other than the fact that addiction kind

00:27:08.089 --> 00:27:10.589
of takes everything away. It robs everything.

00:27:11.670 --> 00:27:14.890
It robs your sanity. It robs your models, your

00:27:14.890 --> 00:27:17.890
principles, your model compass. Everything goes.

00:27:18.309 --> 00:27:21.930
And it's sad. You're talking to a guy now that

00:27:21.930 --> 00:27:25.230
hasn't used for quite some time. And I wouldn't

00:27:25.230 --> 00:27:29.910
be doing the things that I've did or that I've

00:27:29.910 --> 00:27:33.109
done in the past. Are you with me? Yeah. And

00:27:33.109 --> 00:27:35.190
quite like, you know, I've got sound and clear

00:27:35.190 --> 00:27:39.470
minds and, you know, I don't blame myself for

00:27:39.470 --> 00:27:43.250
what my addiction did. I take responsibility

00:27:43.250 --> 00:27:48.329
for my recovery today. Okay, so I kind of like

00:27:48.329 --> 00:27:50.410
look at it, okay, so what harm has it ever done

00:27:50.410 --> 00:27:51.829
and how can I make amends? And that's what I

00:27:51.829 --> 00:27:55.269
do. You know, I'm not going to beat myself up

00:27:55.269 --> 00:28:01.470
for years and, you know, carry a cross. I nail

00:28:01.470 --> 00:28:03.589
myself to it every time someone says anything.

00:28:03.630 --> 00:28:06.710
I've had enough of that. This is what sends people

00:28:06.710 --> 00:28:09.470
back out there and what people struggle with,

00:28:09.549 --> 00:28:12.109
the mental health and all that. It's like, look,

00:28:12.150 --> 00:28:13.990
let's encourage people. Let's build up the character.

00:28:14.809 --> 00:28:17.630
Let's work with them. Let's show them that there's

00:28:17.630 --> 00:28:21.750
a way out. And that's what I'm about to do, to

00:28:21.750 --> 00:28:25.329
be fair. Well, then that's exactly it. I get

00:28:25.329 --> 00:28:28.210
sick of them. I see that in... some of the calls

00:28:28.210 --> 00:28:30.369
i run and some of the people i work with occasionally

00:28:30.369 --> 00:28:32.730
there's normally some very very good people but

00:28:32.730 --> 00:28:34.670
you know looking down there knows that someone

00:28:34.670 --> 00:28:36.230
if they're an addict if they're a prostitute

00:28:36.230 --> 00:28:38.250
if they're if they're homeless so you know whatever

00:28:38.250 --> 00:28:42.650
uh but you know element that we think is beneath

00:28:42.650 --> 00:28:46.190
us instead of going well and i always say this

00:28:46.190 --> 00:28:49.130
we all grew up like if if you and me and you

00:28:49.130 --> 00:28:52.569
know a prostitute and whoever else we're all

00:28:52.569 --> 00:28:54.910
in a daycare we'd just be laughing and chasing

00:28:54.910 --> 00:28:57.049
a ball. Like you said, none of us said, oh, well,

00:28:57.069 --> 00:28:58.829
one day I'm going to live under a bridge or I'm

00:28:58.829 --> 00:29:00.269
going to sell my body, you know, whatever it

00:29:00.269 --> 00:29:02.769
is. That's the path that life took you. And yet,

00:29:02.789 --> 00:29:06.049
of course, you have decisions and, you know,

00:29:06.069 --> 00:29:07.869
you can make them, especially, you know, hopefully

00:29:07.869 --> 00:29:09.809
when you have that realization and you look back.

00:29:10.349 --> 00:29:12.910
But I was fortunate enough to grow up in Bath,

00:29:13.130 --> 00:29:15.309
just outside Bristol on a farm. And my dad was

00:29:15.309 --> 00:29:18.049
a vet and both my parents were there and I had

00:29:18.049 --> 00:29:21.230
no challenges. So my thing is, because I've had

00:29:21.230 --> 00:29:25.640
the path that I've led, then it's my duty to

00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:28.200
reach my hand and help everyone else try and

00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:31.359
come up that wasn't gifted that idyllic childhood.

00:29:31.880 --> 00:29:34.640
So if you didn't go down that rocky road, now

00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:36.460
you're looking down your nose at people because

00:29:36.460 --> 00:29:38.539
they're an addict or anything else that you think

00:29:38.539 --> 00:29:41.759
is beneath you, then you need to check yourself

00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:44.599
and realize that you were blessed and you're

00:29:44.599 --> 00:29:46.880
on this earth to help the people that weren't

00:29:46.880 --> 00:29:49.079
find their way back and then they in turn can

00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:52.059
help other people. Yeah, definitely. I like the

00:29:52.059 --> 00:29:55.349
way you put that, yeah. Yeah, that's how I feel.

00:29:57.690 --> 00:30:00.170
That's a great way to kind of put it across because

00:30:00.170 --> 00:30:05.109
it's having empathy and understanding. Because,

00:30:05.289 --> 00:30:09.450
yeah, some people will judge you. And you know

00:30:09.450 --> 00:30:11.230
what? For those that want to judge me, there's

00:30:11.230 --> 00:30:14.410
a queue. I'm in the front of it, so you can get

00:30:14.410 --> 00:30:18.410
to the back. I'm not really that forced on that,

00:30:18.490 --> 00:30:22.170
to be fair. And I'm not here to judge anyone

00:30:22.170 --> 00:30:25.509
else because I've got no right to. And judging

00:30:25.509 --> 00:30:27.589
doesn't do anything anyway. Nothing gained from

00:30:27.589 --> 00:30:30.930
judging, you know what I mean? All right, well,

00:30:30.970 --> 00:30:34.109
I want to take us back to Thailand. So when you

00:30:34.109 --> 00:30:35.869
came out of Bristol, you were clean, you were

00:30:35.869 --> 00:30:37.369
doing really well, you were going to do the backpack

00:30:37.369 --> 00:30:41.369
trip in Thailand. So what did that initial time

00:30:41.369 --> 00:30:43.970
in Thailand look like? I know you worked on the

00:30:43.970 --> 00:30:46.170
movie set. And then if you wouldn't mind just

00:30:46.170 --> 00:30:48.630
kind of walking us through how that took a turn

00:30:48.630 --> 00:30:53.269
again. Okay, initially I got to Thailand and

00:30:53.269 --> 00:30:55.609
I was like a world -class card -carrying pleasure

00:30:55.609 --> 00:31:00.869
seeker. I felt like I'd been reborn, I was clean,

00:31:01.049 --> 00:31:03.210
I was in recovery and it was a new world and

00:31:03.210 --> 00:31:07.230
I was like a child again. I was excited at the

00:31:07.230 --> 00:31:10.670
opportunity to go travelling with a friend. I

00:31:10.670 --> 00:31:14.750
wanted to relive my old dreams of boxing and

00:31:14.750 --> 00:31:18.390
join this boxing camp in Thailand. You know,

00:31:18.410 --> 00:31:20.170
got in the ring and started competing in multi

00:31:20.170 --> 00:31:23.710
-competitions, which he enjoyed. Got the chance

00:31:23.710 --> 00:31:27.390
to work with Sylvester Stallone on the last Rambo

00:31:27.390 --> 00:31:30.309
movie. And he's a great guy, you know. It's like

00:31:30.309 --> 00:31:36.589
he's a very, very intelligent man. He was my

00:31:36.589 --> 00:31:38.589
hero growing up there. He used to love Rocky

00:31:38.589 --> 00:31:40.970
and I was just over the moon to actually get

00:31:40.970 --> 00:31:44.369
the chance to work with him. And that was panning

00:31:44.369 --> 00:31:47.519
out and I got a job teaching English. So things

00:31:47.519 --> 00:31:49.779
seemed to be, you know, on the outside were going

00:31:49.779 --> 00:31:53.859
really, really well. Boxing, acting, travelling,

00:31:54.259 --> 00:31:57.720
you know, living the dream. And underneath it

00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:00.359
all, I just couldn't cope with relationships.

00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:04.339
It was, you know, I was quite immature emotionally.

00:32:04.740 --> 00:32:06.740
And I remember meeting someone and she was a

00:32:06.740 --> 00:32:13.900
beautiful kind of side girl. And the conversation

00:32:13.900 --> 00:32:17.220
was just a dictionary between us. And I couldn't

00:32:17.220 --> 00:32:20.440
understand a word she said. And I found out that

00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:23.539
she, somehow that she had another boyfriend.

00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:27.140
Another boyfriend. You know what I mean? And

00:32:27.140 --> 00:32:32.099
I got quite hurt by it really. And she was like,

00:32:32.160 --> 00:32:34.660
you know, why are you sad? And I thought, well,

00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:36.599
in England, it's me and you and that's how it

00:32:36.599 --> 00:32:39.119
is. It's not me, you and your geek. You know

00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:43.779
what I mean? So -called. And, you know, I couldn't

00:32:43.779 --> 00:32:48.599
deal with stuff. You know, the pain and the heartache

00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:51.019
was really too much for me to take. I didn't

00:32:51.019 --> 00:32:52.759
even know this girl. I can't even blame her,

00:32:52.779 --> 00:32:54.779
to be honest. It was just at that time I was

00:32:54.779 --> 00:32:58.039
attached to these feelings. You could put me

00:32:58.039 --> 00:32:59.940
in the ring and I could box and I could take

00:32:59.940 --> 00:33:02.819
punches all day and kicks and bruises and cuts

00:33:02.819 --> 00:33:05.480
and you could put plasters and bandages all over

00:33:05.480 --> 00:33:07.740
that. But on the internal stuff, it was like

00:33:07.740 --> 00:33:09.980
I couldn't deal with it. It was like, wow. So

00:33:09.980 --> 00:33:12.000
I found myself in the ring trying to escape the

00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:16.940
pain a lot. Fighting. every night and then when

00:33:16.940 --> 00:33:20.279
I was outside that ring it was real life and

00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:23.299
it was life on life terms and then I felt the

00:33:23.299 --> 00:33:27.980
pain of it all you know until eventually I picked

00:33:27.980 --> 00:33:32.160
up a drink because it was that painful you know

00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:34.700
and I remember screaming inside this isn't the

00:33:34.700 --> 00:33:38.019
answer you know what's gonna happen you know

00:33:38.019 --> 00:33:42.000
and it was like that battle within and then I

00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:44.539
just thought fuck it man I'm just going to drink

00:33:44.539 --> 00:33:50.500
it. I did. I hope you don't mind me emphasising

00:33:50.500 --> 00:33:52.859
a few swear words here. No, this is explicit

00:33:52.859 --> 00:33:57.900
show. You're fine. Okay, so I can be myself.

00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:01.680
Yes. Yeah, I was thinking, fuck this, man. I'm

00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:07.819
just going to go for it and see if I can do it

00:34:07.819 --> 00:34:11.760
differently. That drink just led me to going

00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:15.980
to Bama. buying China White, scoring Yabba tablets,

00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:19.119
which is methamphetamine and the crystal meth

00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:21.219
and taking drugs that I'd never even took before,

00:34:21.460 --> 00:34:23.719
taking addiction to another level in a foreign

00:34:23.719 --> 00:34:27.179
country. You know, and I was involved in dealing

00:34:27.179 --> 00:34:30.480
low -level kind of bits of tablets to friends

00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:33.400
that I'd met over in Thailand to support me Yabba

00:34:33.400 --> 00:34:38.159
and finance it. You know, and it's... There's

00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:40.360
an ultimate consequence when you do that type

00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:42.059
of stuff, you know, in those type of places.

00:34:42.440 --> 00:34:48.039
I got arrested, and then that was taking my life

00:34:48.039 --> 00:34:53.679
to another kind of level on its own. Full prison

00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:56.900
in the UK was terrible, but then, you know, I

00:34:56.900 --> 00:35:02.059
got incarcerated in Thailand. The irony was you

00:35:02.059 --> 00:35:04.340
weren't caught for the dealing, were you? It

00:35:04.340 --> 00:35:07.010
was actually something else? It was just a mobile

00:35:07.010 --> 00:35:10.030
phone I was arrested for. It was a handle on

00:35:10.030 --> 00:35:12.230
a stolen mobile phone, if you can believe that.

00:35:12.750 --> 00:35:16.210
When he came into my room, there was all kinds

00:35:16.210 --> 00:35:20.090
of weapons and drugs. I secreted them quickly.

00:35:20.449 --> 00:35:26.610
No drugs were found. All the weapons were confiscated.

00:35:26.650 --> 00:35:29.230
I wasn't even charged with any. One of them was

00:35:29.230 --> 00:35:31.630
a gun as well. I was quite confused because I

00:35:31.630 --> 00:35:34.989
thought, that's what they'll charge me with.

00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:37.920
And I didn't realise that, you know, I think

00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:40.079
the maximum penalty for carrying a firearm over

00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:42.320
there was nine months on everyone. And his dog

00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:44.679
had a gun. Anyway, it wasn't like over here.

00:35:45.500 --> 00:35:47.300
You know, and the phones, he had a load of phone,

00:35:47.380 --> 00:35:49.900
mobile phones, because it was changing me SIM

00:35:49.900 --> 00:35:52.219
cards and I was paranoid and I was buying them

00:35:52.219 --> 00:35:54.199
off drug dealers and I was buying them off, you

00:35:54.199 --> 00:35:57.239
know, drug addicts who were scoring off me. And

00:35:57.239 --> 00:35:59.980
that's what happened. One of these phones had

00:35:59.980 --> 00:36:05.000
been... classed as stolen by someone so they

00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:07.199
would handle a stolen property and they gave

00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:09.460
me three years for that can you believe it huh

00:36:09.460 --> 00:36:11.380
now if you've been found with the drugs I know

00:36:11.380 --> 00:36:16.619
Thailand's got a pretty low tolerance for for

00:36:16.619 --> 00:36:19.239
you know drug smuggling would that have been

00:36:19.239 --> 00:36:22.280
even worse a sentence oh yeah oh my god I'm just

00:36:22.280 --> 00:36:27.380
grateful that I didn't get arrested with drugs

00:36:27.380 --> 00:36:30.079
on me because I would have ended up with at least

00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:34.659
a 20 year sentence so then let's let's talk about

00:36:34.659 --> 00:36:36.619
that so you actually i want to go back just for

00:36:36.619 --> 00:36:39.239
a second so just to highlight that too you you've

00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:42.739
been doing so well being clean but it's it's

00:36:42.739 --> 00:36:45.460
interesting because you see i've heard you know

00:36:45.460 --> 00:36:47.219
people that i've had on here before one of my

00:36:47.219 --> 00:36:50.340
good friends uh chad who alcohol was his main

00:36:50.340 --> 00:36:54.320
main thing and he was a fireman so when he became

00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:56.619
a fireman he was clean and he threw himself into

00:36:56.619 --> 00:36:59.610
his job and he was doing you know just just the

00:36:59.610 --> 00:37:02.010
ultimate fireman stuff of the special ops and

00:37:02.010 --> 00:37:04.469
all these all these different areas where he

00:37:04.469 --> 00:37:06.730
could keep himself busy but it was the same kind

00:37:06.730 --> 00:37:09.409
of thing like there came a point where all that

00:37:09.409 --> 00:37:12.949
healthy stuff wasn't filling the void and that

00:37:12.949 --> 00:37:15.510
addiction crept back and it seems like you know

00:37:15.510 --> 00:37:17.269
what you're saying going not just from a drink

00:37:17.269 --> 00:37:20.570
to to uh going on a complete bender again how

00:37:20.570 --> 00:37:22.570
that was the same thing like it just crept in

00:37:22.570 --> 00:37:26.900
and flew open the door of pandora's box I go

00:37:26.900 --> 00:37:30.539
straight back to my drug of choice. I don't find

00:37:30.539 --> 00:37:35.199
myself standing in public houses or boozes and

00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:37.320
just having a drink and going home at the end

00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:41.500
of the night. I'm hitting the ground hard. I

00:37:41.500 --> 00:37:43.420
don't know why. There's something within me that

00:37:43.420 --> 00:37:45.179
just says, look, let's go and destroy yourself.

00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:47.920
Let's go and self -destruct. Let's create as

00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:50.860
much harm as humanly possible to yourself and

00:37:50.860 --> 00:37:54.909
others. i think oh my god this is a monster that

00:37:54.909 --> 00:37:58.849
kind of like arrived from within it's just want

00:37:58.849 --> 00:38:01.730
to just fuck up everything that is good in my

00:38:01.730 --> 00:38:07.389
life it's just yeah and it's just you know grateful

00:38:07.389 --> 00:38:12.670
that i'm not you know in that world anymore yeah

00:38:12.670 --> 00:38:16.199
absolutely So let's talk about the Thai world

00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:19.239
then. I mean, you know, I just, I read the book

00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:21.079
a while ago now, you know, before we were talking

00:38:21.079 --> 00:38:23.480
and then saw the movie, which we'll talk about

00:38:23.480 --> 00:38:24.659
in a little bit, which I think it does a very

00:38:24.659 --> 00:38:30.400
good, you know, immersion for the viewer on a

00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:33.860
snapshot of what you went through. But what was

00:38:33.860 --> 00:38:35.960
that first night? I mean, I know you write about

00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:37.659
that in the book, the very first time when you

00:38:37.659 --> 00:38:40.179
were taken into the Thai jail. Just tell me about

00:38:40.179 --> 00:38:43.860
that experience. I remember getting on a bus,

00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:48.179
it was just absolutely rammed, full of inmates

00:38:48.179 --> 00:38:50.599
with shackles on and they all wore brown canvas

00:38:50.599 --> 00:38:53.960
suits. Because I was initially arrested, I didn't

00:38:53.960 --> 00:38:57.599
have to wear that stuff to get transported. But

00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:00.800
as time went on, I had to go to and fro court.

00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:03.719
I was experiencing the same kind of outfit today.

00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:09.860
I walked in and I was just wrapped up in fear.

00:39:11.849 --> 00:39:15.210
I was trying to act tough, but I was scared at

00:39:15.210 --> 00:39:18.829
the same time. The language barrier was difficult,

00:39:18.989 --> 00:39:22.389
so I couldn't communicate. I remember going for

00:39:22.389 --> 00:39:24.710
it. You know, they asked us to get a shower in

00:39:24.710 --> 00:39:26.889
this trough. You know, there was about 100 of

00:39:26.889 --> 00:39:28.750
us that had came through the gates that night.

00:39:29.570 --> 00:39:32.710
And it was a thick film of, like, dirt on the

00:39:32.710 --> 00:39:35.969
water, and it was cold. You know, and we were

00:39:35.969 --> 00:39:38.349
all washing together, no soap, just throwing

00:39:38.349 --> 00:39:42.110
water over us, the slip shades. You know, and

00:39:42.110 --> 00:39:45.250
then sat down in groups of four to eat this bowl

00:39:45.250 --> 00:39:48.469
of sticky rice with a bowl of kind of, you know,

00:39:48.510 --> 00:39:50.090
I couldn't even describe what it was and it was

00:39:50.090 --> 00:39:54.730
stinking and I just couldn't stomach it. I was

00:39:54.730 --> 00:39:57.610
like going into the compound and he put us into

00:39:57.610 --> 00:40:00.389
a cell and I just thought, what's going on here?

00:40:00.710 --> 00:40:03.869
It looked like a mass grave. There was arms and

00:40:03.869 --> 00:40:06.639
legs on the floor everywhere. you know, just

00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:09.059
stunk to high heaven of feces and, you know,

00:40:09.099 --> 00:40:12.320
let's say what it is, it's stunk as shit, you

00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:15.260
know what I mean? You know, in your eye and I'm

00:40:15.260 --> 00:40:18.079
vomiting, you know, there was abscesses on people's

00:40:18.079 --> 00:40:21.119
legs with bloodstained bandages wrapped around

00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:24.099
them and virtually no space and it was absolutely

00:40:24.099 --> 00:40:28.400
hot, you know, you can picture this. And I walked

00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:30.880
in and I just thought, fuck, I'm not going to

00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:32.340
eat it, what's going on? You know what I mean?

00:40:33.139 --> 00:40:37.019
I got put in this little, part of the shell next

00:40:37.019 --> 00:40:40.340
to a lady boy called Tiffany, you remember? You

00:40:40.340 --> 00:40:42.280
know, because she spoke to me immediately, you

00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:45.139
know, and then seduced herself and pointed at

00:40:45.139 --> 00:40:48.360
the guy next to me and said, he's dead. You know,

00:40:48.380 --> 00:40:53.239
and I thought, oh, why won't he move him? He

00:40:53.239 --> 00:40:54.599
said, well, you can't because it's a holiday.

00:40:54.679 --> 00:40:59.039
And I thought, fucking hell, I was just so sad

00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:00.699
there, you know what I mean? And I just lay there

00:41:00.699 --> 00:41:03.260
all night, just wide awake, just looking at the

00:41:03.260 --> 00:41:08.250
ceiling. Looking around the shell, just watching

00:41:08.250 --> 00:41:12.070
this mass of bodies kind of like moving up and

00:41:12.070 --> 00:41:18.110
down as they slept. That was my first night.

00:41:19.670 --> 00:41:21.550
And how long was it until they took that poor

00:41:21.550 --> 00:41:24.650
guy that passed away away from there? Two days.

00:41:24.909 --> 00:41:30.429
Oh my God. Two days because it was a tie holiday.

00:41:32.409 --> 00:41:36.860
That's insane. So then did you, you know, those

00:41:36.860 --> 00:41:40.239
first few weeks, were you able to find, you know,

00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:42.219
a group like you would in maybe in other prisons?

00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:50.679
No, no. I was on my own for a long time in the

00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:53.519
beginning. Like you said earlier on, I was like

00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:55.380
a rebel that had a cause, you know, couldn't

00:41:55.380 --> 00:41:57.460
mix with foreigners. There was a few Australians

00:41:57.460 --> 00:42:01.579
and Iranian and, you know, an Indian. and a few

00:42:01.579 --> 00:42:04.519
other guys, but they were just definitely different

00:42:04.519 --> 00:42:07.440
from me. They weren't my cup of tea, to be honest.

00:42:09.860 --> 00:42:15.239
I just couldn't relate with them. You said some

00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:16.719
of them were kiddie fiddlers, is that right?

00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:19.460
Yeah. I wouldn't be able to relate to them either.

00:42:20.059 --> 00:42:25.179
Yeah, there was definitely... The ties, you knew

00:42:25.179 --> 00:42:26.659
what most of them were in for. It was either

00:42:26.659 --> 00:42:30.289
drugs... or robbery or something like that, you

00:42:30.289 --> 00:42:32.269
know what I mean? The foreigners, there was a

00:42:32.269 --> 00:42:34.090
few, you know, there was a few that were in for

00:42:34.090 --> 00:42:37.710
like fraud and stuff like, like that and drugs,

00:42:37.909 --> 00:42:40.309
you know, and bits and bobs and then you got

00:42:40.309 --> 00:42:43.690
the odd, well, quite a few that were doing a

00:42:43.690 --> 00:42:44.929
lot of other things, you know what I mean, which

00:42:44.929 --> 00:42:48.750
went, quite, went off, you know, I just wanted

00:42:48.750 --> 00:42:52.369
to rip someone's windpipe out one day and just

00:42:52.369 --> 00:42:54.329
think, you know what, you fucking need to die,

00:42:54.389 --> 00:42:58.719
you know what I mean, for what you've done. And

00:42:58.719 --> 00:43:02.079
I don't know why, it's just, if it was over here

00:43:02.079 --> 00:43:03.940
in the UK, they'd lock you up and separate you

00:43:03.940 --> 00:43:05.980
from everyone else. But over there, it was just,

00:43:06.079 --> 00:43:10.239
no one gave a shit. Absolutely gave two fucks

00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:14.079
what they did. That was wrong. Yeah, it's strange

00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:16.239
how it's, you know, how there's that difference

00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:18.019
in culture. Because I know, you know, being British

00:43:18.019 --> 00:43:20.239
myself, you know, we hear about a lot of these

00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:22.380
Brits that would go over there for that reason,

00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:24.059
you know, to go to Thailand just so they can

00:43:24.059 --> 00:43:26.639
do that with kids that they know they would get.

00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:29.159
you know, hung up to do if they tried it in England?

00:43:29.900 --> 00:43:31.960
Yeah, loads of sex tourists, you know, it was,

00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:36.199
and I met one guy, you know, his name's Jack

00:43:36.199 --> 00:43:39.340
and he's in my story and, you know, he's gay

00:43:39.340 --> 00:43:42.599
and I've got nothing against anyone who's, anyone's

00:43:42.599 --> 00:43:45.239
gender or anyone's kind of sexuality. It was

00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:50.119
just the fact that he was picking up vulnerable,

00:43:50.260 --> 00:43:53.699
like, Bermies, village boys and stuff like that.

00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:56.650
So, you know, And he was the only English guy

00:43:56.650 --> 00:44:01.750
there. You know, and Nick named him Prozac Jack

00:44:01.750 --> 00:44:04.610
because all he ever done was say Prozac and he

00:44:04.610 --> 00:44:07.929
was just totally depressed with it all and, you

00:44:07.929 --> 00:44:10.730
know, played the victim and, you know, and the

00:44:10.730 --> 00:44:13.250
kid was lying and stuff like that. But, you know,

00:44:13.289 --> 00:44:16.730
the truth came out in the end. So, yeah, there

00:44:16.730 --> 00:44:18.670
was another guy from Australia who was in for

00:44:18.670 --> 00:44:23.690
writing a two -year -old girl and I had to share

00:44:23.690 --> 00:44:27.159
it. I shared with him the thoughts that were

00:44:27.159 --> 00:44:29.039
going through my mind about what I wanted to

00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:33.619
do to him. I should be locked up for murder,

00:44:33.659 --> 00:44:37.340
to be honest. The thoughts, that's exactly what

00:44:37.340 --> 00:44:42.780
they were. Murderous. I just couldn't do nothing.

00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:45.420
It wasn't for me to do anything, to be honest.

00:44:46.340 --> 00:44:52.579
It wasn't my place. I'm not judging Jodie. you

00:44:52.579 --> 00:44:54.380
know, I'm not going to put myself on the line

00:44:54.380 --> 00:44:58.800
for someone else. But I'm trying to paint a picture

00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:02.920
of how I felt. There were feelings, there were

00:45:02.920 --> 00:45:07.920
actions, if that makes sense. No, it does. Like

00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:09.400
you said, you're the protector, so there you

00:45:09.400 --> 00:45:11.440
are in a cell with someone who's abused children.

00:45:11.820 --> 00:45:14.440
I mean, you know if you do something to them

00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:16.840
that it's just going to... end up keeping you

00:45:16.840 --> 00:45:20.059
in that prison longer. If I even had attacked

00:45:20.059 --> 00:45:24.320
them or been verbally abusive to them, I'd have

00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:30.960
been put in what they call a punishment block.

00:45:31.500 --> 00:45:33.579
I'd experienced that in the first prison I'd

00:45:33.579 --> 00:45:37.639
been to in Chiang Mai and I didn't like it. I

00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:39.739
felt like I wanted to end my life when I was

00:45:39.739 --> 00:45:43.550
in there. I learned pretty quick not to repeat

00:45:43.550 --> 00:45:46.789
the same mistakes there because, you know, it

00:45:46.789 --> 00:45:51.590
was very, very unhealthy. So, yeah, they knew

00:45:51.590 --> 00:45:53.769
that and I knew that and so they just became

00:45:53.769 --> 00:45:56.690
ghosts to me, to be honest. That's how I kind

00:45:56.690 --> 00:45:58.969
of see to people. So that's why I spent a lot

00:45:58.969 --> 00:46:03.070
of time on my own and, you know, drugs came back

00:46:03.070 --> 00:46:06.710
into play again. They became my friends and my

00:46:06.710 --> 00:46:11.309
only companions for a while. Yeah, now, You talk

00:46:11.309 --> 00:46:12.829
about this in the book as well. Obviously, you

00:46:12.829 --> 00:46:14.929
weren't walking in with a wallet full of cash.

00:46:15.170 --> 00:46:17.869
So what were the challenges trying to feed your

00:46:17.869 --> 00:46:21.610
addiction in there? I had to beg, borrow and

00:46:21.610 --> 00:46:24.469
steal. I had missionaries coming up. They'd buy

00:46:24.469 --> 00:46:26.269
you food and the food that they bought me, I'd

00:46:26.269 --> 00:46:30.849
sell. The British Embassy was supplying us with

00:46:30.849 --> 00:46:35.250
vitamin tablets and protein tablets. I'd sell

00:46:35.250 --> 00:46:38.550
them. Prisoners abroad would send 2 ,000 bars

00:46:38.550 --> 00:46:41.610
every month and I'd spend that. on drugs you

00:46:41.610 --> 00:46:44.170
know i'll get medication and swapped the medication

00:46:44.170 --> 00:46:46.369
for drugs they had none you know and that's how

00:46:46.369 --> 00:46:50.349
i kind of got by you know and then i i i couldn't

00:46:50.349 --> 00:46:52.429
afford to pay some of the debts and it ends up

00:46:52.429 --> 00:46:55.949
fighting them you know and it just became that

00:46:55.949 --> 00:47:00.949
way of life what i mean yeah i mean that that's

00:47:00.949 --> 00:47:03.590
such a great kind of example or illustration

00:47:03.590 --> 00:47:05.269
though of what addiction is like that you're

00:47:05.269 --> 00:47:08.690
getting this stuff sent to you For example, you

00:47:08.690 --> 00:47:11.090
know, the food. I mean, the food's awful and

00:47:11.090 --> 00:47:12.969
you get the opportunity to buy something better

00:47:12.969 --> 00:47:15.650
or, you know, cigarettes or whatever it is. And

00:47:15.650 --> 00:47:17.730
all that you're just turning back so you can

00:47:17.730 --> 00:47:19.929
get Yabba or, you know, whatever you were getting

00:47:19.929 --> 00:47:23.429
your hands on. If that doesn't illustrate how

00:47:23.429 --> 00:47:25.710
powerful addiction is, I don't know what does.

00:47:26.550 --> 00:47:30.750
Yeah, that's where I'm trying to come from before.

00:47:30.849 --> 00:47:34.510
You know, it's got such a power over you that,

00:47:34.550 --> 00:47:38.369
like, you would shell your soul. for just one

00:47:38.369 --> 00:47:42.489
more. Yeah. Well, let's talk about the upturn

00:47:42.489 --> 00:47:46.809
then. So how did you find Muay Thai in prison

00:47:46.809 --> 00:47:52.329
itself? There was a boxing camp in the prison.

00:47:52.690 --> 00:47:56.969
People were training. I was, because of the fights

00:47:56.969 --> 00:47:59.489
I was getting involved in, just in the normal

00:47:59.489 --> 00:48:02.010
population, and a guard came over and said, look,

00:48:02.070 --> 00:48:03.989
Bill, you're like the Oscar de la Hoya in this

00:48:03.989 --> 00:48:06.139
prison. You're going to end up getting... killed

00:48:06.139 --> 00:48:09.619
the way you're going on you know it's like it's

00:48:09.619 --> 00:48:11.480
not one -on -one there's a few attacking yet

00:48:11.480 --> 00:48:13.159
and you just keep coming back the next day and

00:48:13.159 --> 00:48:16.500
doing it again and you know just seeing you really

00:48:16.500 --> 00:48:20.039
like this show he encouraged me to join his boxing

00:48:20.039 --> 00:48:24.460
team we were quite unreasonable like they were

00:48:24.460 --> 00:48:27.820
kind of like you ain't like allowing me to get

00:48:27.820 --> 00:48:33.989
in that's a bride with cigarettes In the end,

00:48:34.030 --> 00:48:35.789
they gave me the chance to come and train with

00:48:35.789 --> 00:48:39.289
them. And they just let me be. And they seemed

00:48:39.289 --> 00:48:42.369
that I had a few skills and that they could kind

00:48:42.369 --> 00:48:45.289
of exploit that opportunity to bet against other

00:48:45.289 --> 00:48:50.489
Thai boxers with me involved and make a little

00:48:50.489 --> 00:48:52.909
bit of money. And that's how it began, really.

00:48:53.010 --> 00:48:55.849
And then I became friends. And, you know, that

00:48:55.849 --> 00:48:58.389
journey of, like, unity and collectively as a

00:48:58.389 --> 00:49:04.460
group, the boxing team and myself as one. Yeah,

00:49:04.500 --> 00:49:08.139
it's interesting again how when you were young,

00:49:08.199 --> 00:49:11.340
boxing was your outlet. And now here you are

00:49:11.340 --> 00:49:13.980
a lot older, but back in that place where you

00:49:13.980 --> 00:49:17.079
can focus your energy and your aggression and

00:49:17.079 --> 00:49:20.659
then build that tribe around you, that camaraderie

00:49:20.659 --> 00:49:23.260
of the other fighters. From the outside looking

00:49:23.260 --> 00:49:27.159
in, it seems like it was a good healing outlet

00:49:27.159 --> 00:49:32.010
for you that offset some of the... the need to

00:49:32.010 --> 00:49:36.710
fill the void with the drugs. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

00:49:37.750 --> 00:49:41.369
So then what about the fights? I mean, how successful

00:49:41.369 --> 00:49:45.349
were you against the Muay Thai fighters? Pretty

00:49:45.349 --> 00:49:51.670
damn good, I think. Yeah. I'm not stroking my

00:49:51.670 --> 00:49:53.789
own egos, man. I'd elevate myself with that one.

00:49:53.849 --> 00:49:56.130
I remember getting in the ring and, you know,

00:49:56.150 --> 00:49:59.150
I could take physical pain all day. You know,

00:49:59.170 --> 00:50:02.250
and... I knew they couldn't box like I boxed.

00:50:02.909 --> 00:50:04.769
They were great at kicking and that, and I learned

00:50:04.769 --> 00:50:07.630
how to defend myself pretty quick. So I was up

00:50:07.630 --> 00:50:10.750
against it, you know. They put me in with a few

00:50:10.750 --> 00:50:13.590
tough customers, but I stood my ground. I won

00:50:13.590 --> 00:50:15.190
a few and I lost a few. I never won them all.

00:50:15.969 --> 00:50:19.610
And I don't claim to be someone who's, you know,

00:50:19.630 --> 00:50:23.349
a champion. I'm not a boxer or anything. But,

00:50:23.369 --> 00:50:26.110
you know, I've got heart. I knew I had that.

00:50:26.989 --> 00:50:33.260
And I wouldn't give up. yeah thought this is

00:50:33.260 --> 00:50:35.780
it come on this is this is my this is my tear

00:50:35.780 --> 00:50:38.739
for you it's getting the ring i'll show you a

00:50:38.739 --> 00:50:42.739
few moves yeah because the muay thai i mean i

00:50:42.739 --> 00:50:45.699
love muay thai i've trained myself for for you

00:50:45.699 --> 00:50:48.400
know several years and uh not as a fighter let

00:50:48.400 --> 00:50:50.420
me be very clear on i'm not the punch bag that

00:50:50.420 --> 00:50:51.920
the fighters beat up and when they're training

00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:56.139
for a fight but um I can see how if you come

00:50:56.139 --> 00:50:59.579
from Thailand, how if you're a British boxer

00:50:59.579 --> 00:51:04.159
coming in, that your hand skills would be hard

00:51:04.159 --> 00:51:06.179
for a traditional Muay Thai fighter to deal with.

00:51:06.780 --> 00:51:10.199
Yeah. That's what they were up against. They

00:51:10.199 --> 00:51:14.159
were up against my fast left jabs, slip and sliding,

00:51:14.519 --> 00:51:16.760
ducking and diving, bobbing and weaving, and

00:51:16.760 --> 00:51:19.980
right crosses. I was up against elbows, knees,

00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:24.530
and bear hooks. Yeah, because normally when you're

00:51:24.530 --> 00:51:26.530
clinching in a boxing match, you're separated

00:51:26.530 --> 00:51:29.210
by the referee, not so much in Muay Thai. No,

00:51:29.210 --> 00:51:30.829
they were throwing knees in, so I learned to

00:51:30.829 --> 00:51:35.309
kind of keep a distance, but, you know, pretty

00:51:35.309 --> 00:51:37.989
heavy duty kicks to the back of the legs and,

00:51:38.010 --> 00:51:42.489
you know, the neck and elbows, the top of my

00:51:42.489 --> 00:51:45.050
eyes and the bridge of my nose, so it took a

00:51:45.050 --> 00:51:51.190
few clouts, like. Right, so then you, in the

00:51:51.190 --> 00:51:53.849
book, you talk about the... The accident that

00:51:53.849 --> 00:51:55.710
you had before you went to prison and then how

00:51:55.710 --> 00:51:58.150
that manifested itself once you were in there,

00:51:58.230 --> 00:51:59.690
I think that's a kind of interesting story to

00:51:59.690 --> 00:52:02.210
touch on as well. So the surgery that you had

00:52:02.210 --> 00:52:07.409
to have done. Yeah, I'd come off a motorbike

00:52:07.409 --> 00:52:10.650
when I was in Laos. I went from driving on one

00:52:10.650 --> 00:52:12.829
side of the road to going into another country

00:52:12.829 --> 00:52:14.789
and not realising that they drove on the other

00:52:14.789 --> 00:52:20.610
side. I was hit by two taxis. like tuk -tuk taxis

00:52:20.610 --> 00:52:24.369
that smashed the bike in half. Basically, that

00:52:24.369 --> 00:52:27.630
went on the air and the brake lever went through

00:52:27.630 --> 00:52:29.989
my stomach and the chassis landed on my chest,

00:52:30.110 --> 00:52:32.929
crushing my ribs, puncturing my lung. You know,

00:52:32.949 --> 00:52:35.889
it caused me a lot of internal kind of problems

00:52:35.889 --> 00:52:42.769
within my stomach area. I got stitched up in

00:52:42.769 --> 00:52:44.949
a hospital in Laos and then sent back to Chiang

00:52:44.949 --> 00:52:47.110
Mai, Thailand. I spent three months in hospital

00:52:47.110 --> 00:52:51.369
before I went. It's the prison I was in. I was

00:52:51.369 --> 00:52:56.889
in hospital. So I had surgery twice while I was

00:52:56.889 --> 00:53:04.349
in a prison in Thailand. And that was affecting

00:53:04.349 --> 00:53:09.110
me getting in the ring again. I refused to give

00:53:09.110 --> 00:53:16.210
up. They were asking me, look, it's not going

00:53:16.210 --> 00:53:20.630
to really... be guffier to do this anymore. And

00:53:20.630 --> 00:53:22.949
I thought, nah, if I'm going to die, I'm going

00:53:22.949 --> 00:53:27.130
to die fighting in that sense. I'm not going

00:53:27.130 --> 00:53:32.550
to lie down and just take it. When you were in

00:53:32.550 --> 00:53:35.230
one of the hospitals, you actually made it out

00:53:35.230 --> 00:53:36.809
of the hospital and you had the opportunity to

00:53:36.809 --> 00:53:38.969
escape. I'm really intrigued about this. What

00:53:38.969 --> 00:53:42.829
made you turn around and go back? I remember

00:53:42.829 --> 00:53:49.110
getting I think it was 1 ,000 bars of Catherine,

00:53:49.190 --> 00:53:51.630
the missionary. And he had these chains on me,

00:53:51.690 --> 00:53:55.949
these elephant chains. And he put these bandages

00:53:55.949 --> 00:53:57.489
around them, you know, because they were rattling

00:53:57.489 --> 00:53:59.389
a lot. And he didn't want to upset the rest of

00:53:59.389 --> 00:54:01.489
the patients. And then there's a rong around

00:54:01.489 --> 00:54:03.510
me, so it was covering, like, it was hiding it.

00:54:04.030 --> 00:54:07.369
And this guy, he's lazy, fucking honest to God.

00:54:08.230 --> 00:54:11.329
He just didn't, like, hang around all day long

00:54:11.329 --> 00:54:13.730
and just keep his eye on me. He used to say,

00:54:13.750 --> 00:54:17.179
I'll be back. or his break or whatever and put

00:54:17.179 --> 00:54:19.679
a gun to his head and said if you run I'll shoot

00:54:19.679 --> 00:54:24.000
you or whatever to that and I remember like with

00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:26.480
this thousand bars and I wanted a cigarette and

00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:28.400
I had no money I had no cigarettes and I had

00:54:28.400 --> 00:54:32.260
this money and I found the exit went down the

00:54:32.260 --> 00:54:36.320
exit just the first time and opened the bottom

00:54:36.320 --> 00:54:39.760
door and outside was all people on grass having

00:54:39.760 --> 00:54:42.880
like a picnic eating food no visitors to the

00:54:42.880 --> 00:54:44.940
families there you know what I mean in the hospital

00:54:44.940 --> 00:54:48.539
grounds. Got myself a cigarette and I walked

00:54:48.539 --> 00:54:54.900
over to the 7 -Eleven and bought a bottle of

00:54:54.900 --> 00:55:00.739
brandy and 20 cigarettes, and then went next

00:55:00.739 --> 00:55:05.159
door and bought 500 Tramadol tablets. When I

00:55:05.159 --> 00:55:06.800
came back, I was scared, like I was actually

00:55:06.800 --> 00:55:08.880
kind of fearful and I was like, oh, this is,

00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:12.489
I'm outside and I'm actually in the street. You

00:55:12.489 --> 00:55:14.210
know, and then I made it back to the hospital,

00:55:14.269 --> 00:55:17.489
back up to the fire exit stairs, back into bed.

00:55:18.070 --> 00:55:20.130
And my confidence grew over the days because

00:55:20.130 --> 00:55:21.730
I used to go down the back of the stairs every

00:55:21.730 --> 00:55:26.650
single night for a cigarette at the time. And

00:55:26.650 --> 00:55:29.150
then one night when the tablets ran out, I made

00:55:29.150 --> 00:55:32.869
this crazy kind of decision to make a run for

00:55:32.869 --> 00:55:39.309
it. And I left my bed at about 1am. And by 3am,

00:55:39.409 --> 00:55:41.150
I was walking around in the streets thinking

00:55:41.150 --> 00:55:43.789
to myself, where the fuck are you going to go

00:55:43.789 --> 00:55:48.329
here? You've got shackles on your ankles. You

00:55:48.329 --> 00:55:50.510
can't steal a motorbike. You can't steal a car.

00:55:52.170 --> 00:55:54.590
Where are you going to go anyway? All these keep

00:55:54.590 --> 00:55:57.710
playing around in my mind. You can't get the

00:55:57.710 --> 00:55:59.369
embassy. They'll just send you back. If you get

00:55:59.369 --> 00:56:01.909
caught, you'll probably get shot. If you go and

00:56:01.909 --> 00:56:04.849
approach any type of nationals, they'll probably

00:56:04.849 --> 00:56:06.550
blow you up and grass you up and get you put.

00:56:06.690 --> 00:56:08.820
You know what I mean? so i had all this ticket

00:56:08.820 --> 00:56:13.960
sandwich and eventually just found myself walking

00:56:13.960 --> 00:56:18.139
back just deflated thinking it's only three years

00:56:18.139 --> 00:56:24.960
that's amazing amazing so let's talk about how

00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:27.059
you finally got out then because you know that

00:56:27.059 --> 00:56:30.659
that in itself is is uh a pretty incredible story

00:56:30.659 --> 00:56:32.760
so you're you're going through hell i mean you

00:56:32.760 --> 00:56:35.320
you know you're now obviously fighting muay thai

00:56:35.320 --> 00:56:38.059
you still got the You know, the violence and

00:56:38.059 --> 00:56:40.440
the death and the shitty food and the overcrowding

00:56:40.440 --> 00:56:44.059
and all these other things. So what was the turning

00:56:44.059 --> 00:56:46.099
point where you realised, OK, I am actually going

00:56:46.099 --> 00:56:50.539
to get to go home at some point? I think as the

00:56:50.539 --> 00:56:53.519
sentence was coming to an end, I never had, like,

00:56:53.579 --> 00:56:57.360
a release date. You know, and I heard about that

00:56:57.360 --> 00:56:59.659
there was a repatriation possible and I asked

00:56:59.659 --> 00:57:02.679
the embassy to support that and, you know, they

00:57:02.679 --> 00:57:07.909
pulled. a form or whatever he had to do he came

00:57:07.909 --> 00:57:10.409
back about three or four months later said look

00:57:10.409 --> 00:57:16.469
okay we'll repack you back to the uk and that

00:57:16.469 --> 00:57:20.750
was um it was like a wow moment had been in thailand

00:57:20.750 --> 00:57:24.150
for five years by this time you know it builds

00:57:24.150 --> 00:57:26.289
up a relationship with these people these thai

00:57:26.289 --> 00:57:29.409
friends that i have and they all came to the

00:57:29.409 --> 00:57:31.929
gate you know to see me off and it was quite

00:57:31.929 --> 00:57:35.090
sad it was a moment And I felt for the first

00:57:35.090 --> 00:57:36.829
time that I was leaving something behind and

00:57:36.829 --> 00:57:39.909
that I was leaving friends that I'd made whilst

00:57:39.909 --> 00:57:42.690
I was there. And it did take a long time because

00:57:42.690 --> 00:57:45.989
it changed by this stage. I was off drugs and

00:57:45.989 --> 00:57:50.170
I was involved in a lot of the religious stuff

00:57:50.170 --> 00:57:56.349
at the time that helped. So yeah, that's where

00:57:56.349 --> 00:58:02.559
I felt really about it. see that's just so it's

00:58:02.559 --> 00:58:05.920
so crazy that i guess that shows you how how

00:58:05.920 --> 00:58:08.000
everything that we deal with in life is is between

00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:10.719
our two ears because externally you know what

00:58:10.719 --> 00:58:12.260
you went through in that prison and what your

00:58:12.260 --> 00:58:14.239
fellow prisoners were going through as well was

00:58:14.239 --> 00:58:16.960
compared to you know life on most of the world

00:58:16.960 --> 00:58:20.699
pretty awful but that friendship that you ended

00:58:20.699 --> 00:58:23.920
up discovering you know over overcame all the

00:58:23.920 --> 00:58:28.579
other stuff it did yeah And what about the addiction?

00:58:28.699 --> 00:58:30.820
What was it that really got you off the drugs

00:58:30.820 --> 00:58:39.260
in prison? I think it was just the fact that

00:58:39.260 --> 00:58:46.179
I ran out of money. I ran out of choices. I ran

00:58:46.179 --> 00:58:52.119
out of friends. My life was being threatened

00:58:52.119 --> 00:58:55.840
on a daily basis. I was subjected to threats

00:58:55.840 --> 00:59:00.079
of... I was death by, you know, HIV -infected

00:59:00.079 --> 00:59:06.320
syringes, rape. It was on my cards, if I didn't

00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:12.340
pay bills, apparently. And the fact that, like,

00:59:12.380 --> 00:59:14.860
I was so fucking lonely and it all, that I just

00:59:14.860 --> 00:59:22.119
couldn't cope. And I just... ..kind of made this

00:59:22.119 --> 00:59:24.739
decision to stop and, you know, these Muslim

00:59:24.739 --> 00:59:30.050
guys helped me. Quite weird really. They invited

00:59:30.050 --> 00:59:33.869
me to eat some lunch with them and then we spoke

00:59:33.869 --> 00:59:39.369
about unity and support and collectively as a

00:59:39.369 --> 00:59:42.530
group, you know, they take care of me and not

00:59:42.530 --> 00:59:48.590
in a way that it was like they were kind of like

00:59:48.590 --> 00:59:51.829
jihad so they wanted me to be involved in some

00:59:51.829 --> 00:59:55.230
kind of extreme. a Muslim kind of far -right

00:59:55.230 --> 00:59:58.650
group, you know what I mean? He just wanted to

00:59:58.650 --> 01:00:02.170
show me a way of living, like without using.

01:00:02.550 --> 01:00:05.250
He said, if you join our religion, that's what

01:00:05.250 --> 01:00:08.030
he said, you know, there's a few rules. You can't

01:00:08.030 --> 01:00:12.050
have sex with men. That's okay. That's going

01:00:12.050 --> 01:00:14.989
to be a tough one. All right. He said, you can't

01:00:14.989 --> 01:00:16.809
take drugs. And I like the idea of not taking

01:00:16.809 --> 01:00:20.349
drugs. So that's who I mean. And we'll feed you.

01:00:20.510 --> 01:00:23.789
So, you know, they knew that I wasn't. I'm Muslim.

01:00:23.989 --> 01:00:26.210
And he knew I was black and white, but he didn't

01:00:26.210 --> 01:00:30.650
kind of turn me away. That's so good to hear,

01:00:30.710 --> 01:00:32.369
because I'm sure you have the same in England.

01:00:32.449 --> 01:00:34.650
But, you know, we hear so much negativity about

01:00:34.650 --> 01:00:37.690
Islam. And that's just those, you know, that

01:00:37.690 --> 01:00:39.809
minute percentage of shitbags that are doing

01:00:39.809 --> 01:00:43.010
horrible things in the name of Islam. Yeah, definitely.

01:00:43.409 --> 01:00:45.909
But what you're talking about is the good people

01:00:45.909 --> 01:00:48.409
in that faith. Yeah. See, what I got to say to

01:00:48.409 --> 01:00:51.590
believe that... They were doing, you know, my

01:00:51.590 --> 01:00:53.630
managers, all what I'd read in the papers and

01:00:53.630 --> 01:00:56.510
what had been told from second -hand, you know,

01:00:56.510 --> 01:00:59.250
conversations and all. And I sat there one day

01:00:59.250 --> 01:01:00.530
and said, I'm going to ask you a few questions

01:01:00.530 --> 01:01:02.550
because I'm not really too fussy with your fame,

01:01:02.630 --> 01:01:04.289
you know what I mean? I said, what's up with

01:01:04.289 --> 01:01:07.469
all these backpacks? And that's how naive I was,

01:01:07.469 --> 01:01:08.690
you know what I mean? I thought everyone who's

01:01:08.690 --> 01:01:10.250
got a backpack is going to blow everything up.

01:01:10.250 --> 01:01:12.289
And he went to say, look, Bill, just hazard laughing.

01:01:12.550 --> 01:01:17.210
I said, look, you know. Islam means peace, he

01:01:17.210 --> 01:01:18.730
said. And there's people that are out there that

01:01:18.730 --> 01:01:23.909
kind of like, yeah, that don't want peace. A

01:01:23.909 --> 01:01:26.989
jihad means, you know, to fight within, not to

01:01:26.989 --> 01:01:31.170
fight other people. You know, a salamu alaykum

01:01:31.170 --> 01:01:33.989
means, you know, has two meanings. It means peace

01:01:33.989 --> 01:01:35.650
be with you and also I'm not going to harm you,

01:01:35.690 --> 01:01:38.909
my friend. And I kind of like the way they kind

01:01:38.909 --> 01:01:40.590
of spoke about it, you know what I mean? And

01:01:40.590 --> 01:01:43.099
I watched them for a long time before. I sat

01:01:43.099 --> 01:01:45.119
with them and I'd seen the integrity that they

01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:49.159
had and I'd seen the way they behaved. It was

01:01:49.159 --> 01:01:52.360
quite nice and it was quite serene. I wanted

01:01:52.360 --> 01:01:55.599
a bit of normality, so I think I gravitated towards

01:01:55.599 --> 01:01:58.239
that, where everyone else was doing their own

01:01:58.239 --> 01:02:04.420
thing. It was nice to have that way of life for

01:02:04.420 --> 01:02:07.519
a short, short time, a short period of being

01:02:07.519 --> 01:02:11.019
in there before I got released. Yeah, and what

01:02:11.019 --> 01:02:14.860
were those guys in prison for themselves? Murder,

01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:18.880
drugs, drug dealing, things like that, you know

01:02:18.880 --> 01:02:21.840
what I mean? And had they discovered Islam after

01:02:21.840 --> 01:02:24.440
that, or were they always Muslim and they just

01:02:24.440 --> 01:02:26.739
found their way down a bad path as well? They

01:02:26.739 --> 01:02:29.980
were just bad Muslims. Right. That's what they

01:02:29.980 --> 01:02:32.739
used to say. We don't even go to Juma on a Friday,

01:02:32.800 --> 01:02:34.559
but we're just a bit of a bad Muslim at the minute.

01:02:34.599 --> 01:02:37.659
So, you know, we made mistakes. You know, they

01:02:37.659 --> 01:02:40.429
were just honest. They were open. But that's

01:02:40.429 --> 01:02:42.750
good. Like you were saying, we all make mistakes

01:02:42.750 --> 01:02:45.010
and you can't dwell on the past. And you see

01:02:45.010 --> 01:02:48.090
that a lot in America for some reason where a

01:02:48.090 --> 01:02:51.289
lot of prisoners come from wherever and they

01:02:51.289 --> 01:02:53.389
find a faith, whether it's Christianity, Islam,

01:02:53.650 --> 01:02:56.670
whatever it is. And that's the ones you see that

01:02:56.670 --> 01:03:00.010
many times become mentors and become good people

01:03:00.010 --> 01:03:03.389
and then leave prison and start mentoring the

01:03:03.389 --> 01:03:06.309
gang kids and trying to get them to change their

01:03:06.309 --> 01:03:09.829
ways. And it all boils down to me like, Again,

01:03:10.130 --> 01:03:13.369
you're either a good person or a bad person.

01:03:13.469 --> 01:03:17.690
And whatever you can use to make yourself good

01:03:17.690 --> 01:03:20.289
and spread that kindness is good. It doesn't

01:03:20.289 --> 01:03:23.369
matter what it's called. Yeah, man. I agree.

01:03:24.449 --> 01:03:26.489
All right. Well, then let's talk about the transition.

01:03:26.650 --> 01:03:28.969
So you were in this great group. You found your

01:03:28.969 --> 01:03:32.769
spirituality. You had this group of people. You

01:03:32.769 --> 01:03:35.489
were clean. What was that transition back from

01:03:35.489 --> 01:03:39.460
Thailand back to England again? It was a culture

01:03:39.460 --> 01:03:44.599
shock. It was very, very difficult. I'd learnt

01:03:44.599 --> 01:03:47.340
a new language and I'd adopted a new culture

01:03:47.340 --> 01:03:50.559
and then I was thrown back into the UK penal

01:03:50.559 --> 01:03:52.679
system and it was, you know, it was frightening.

01:03:53.900 --> 01:03:58.820
You know, I felt really vulnerable and there

01:03:58.820 --> 01:04:01.599
was definitely no support or no help when I got

01:04:01.599 --> 01:04:05.159
back. I got released from Wandsworth Prison in

01:04:05.159 --> 01:04:10.300
London with a bag. with a few belongings in it

01:04:10.300 --> 01:04:15.360
and a travel warrant. And I stood rooted to the

01:04:15.360 --> 01:04:18.300
spot outside the prison gates going, they didn't

01:04:18.300 --> 01:04:20.599
even tell me it was getting released. They just

01:04:20.599 --> 01:04:22.579
opened the door and went, you know, this is it,

01:04:22.599 --> 01:04:27.260
you're out. And I was just like, what the fuck's

01:04:27.260 --> 01:04:30.099
going on here? Am I going to go? I don't even

01:04:30.099 --> 01:04:33.579
know anyone. I felt so embarrassed to go home

01:04:33.579 --> 01:04:35.599
and speak to my mum and my family because...

01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:38.559
of my journey had been, you know what I mean?

01:04:40.400 --> 01:04:43.820
Yeah, and that's what strikes me as, you know,

01:04:43.840 --> 01:04:45.320
something that we could do better. And again,

01:04:45.440 --> 01:04:47.360
I'm not saying that we don't need, you know,

01:04:47.420 --> 01:04:49.239
incarceration and punishment and all that stuff,

01:04:49.320 --> 01:04:53.099
because obviously we do, but there's a gentleman

01:04:53.099 --> 01:04:56.119
I had on the show from Norway who's a governor

01:04:56.119 --> 01:04:59.480
from a prison out there. And what they do in

01:04:59.480 --> 01:05:02.179
this particular one is when you're in prison,

01:05:02.699 --> 01:05:05.719
You live in a town. It's on an island off Oslo,

01:05:05.760 --> 01:05:07.900
but it's called Bastoy. And you live with other

01:05:07.900 --> 01:05:09.800
prisoners and you cook and you clean and you

01:05:09.800 --> 01:05:12.360
have a job that you go to every day and you can

01:05:12.360 --> 01:05:15.079
learn trades. So by the time you come out, not

01:05:15.079 --> 01:05:17.559
only have you kind of fostered that community

01:05:17.559 --> 01:05:23.000
again, but you also are set up to go get work.

01:05:23.219 --> 01:05:26.159
And so the chance of reoffending over there is

01:05:26.159 --> 01:05:29.500
really, really, really small. The way we do it,

01:05:29.539 --> 01:05:32.090
and this isn't... this isn't you know again being

01:05:32.090 --> 01:05:34.170
judgy but it's like we've done this for a long

01:05:34.170 --> 01:05:37.130
long time and it doesn't seem to be working but

01:05:37.130 --> 01:05:39.769
to lock people up and then just like you said

01:05:39.769 --> 01:05:42.789
open the door you're free now the chance of that

01:05:42.789 --> 01:05:45.170
person going back into crime into prostitution

01:05:45.170 --> 01:05:47.030
into addiction whatever it was that got him in

01:05:47.030 --> 01:05:49.269
there in the first place is obviously going to

01:05:49.269 --> 01:05:51.289
be a lot higher if we haven't done anything inside

01:05:51.289 --> 01:05:58.010
to try and change that behavior yeah yeah well

01:05:59.050 --> 01:06:01.230
I think over the years, there's a small percentage

01:06:01.230 --> 01:06:03.469
of people that want to get help. Some people

01:06:03.469 --> 01:06:05.849
just don't care. I've recently experienced that.

01:06:06.550 --> 01:06:09.949
Like I said, you've got to be willing to change.

01:06:11.329 --> 01:06:13.530
Let me ask you a question then, because you've

01:06:13.530 --> 01:06:17.329
got the two side -by -side. What are the things

01:06:17.329 --> 01:06:20.150
that the British prisons could learn about the

01:06:20.150 --> 01:06:22.869
Thai prison, if anything, and then vice versa?

01:06:28.279 --> 01:06:32.800
Absolutely fuck all. That's a good answer. Seriously,

01:06:33.059 --> 01:06:38.400
absolutely nothing. As for Thai prisons, sometimes

01:06:38.400 --> 01:06:40.420
being in a prison in the UK, I think it would

01:06:40.420 --> 01:06:43.280
be better off in a Thai prison the way it was,

01:06:43.280 --> 01:06:47.000
you know what I mean? In a sense, Thai prisons

01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:49.719
are all green and there's a lot of people and

01:06:49.719 --> 01:06:52.039
there's a lot of fucking violence at the same

01:06:52.039 --> 01:06:54.570
time, but you know where you are. you know and

01:06:54.570 --> 01:06:56.809
then you go to a UK prison which is like a concrete

01:06:56.809 --> 01:07:01.849
jungle where people are smoking spice and cutting

01:07:01.849 --> 01:07:04.150
each other up and you know there's gang culture

01:07:04.150 --> 01:07:08.630
and suicide rates are high and there's a lot

01:07:08.630 --> 01:07:11.090
of mental health you know it's all drug induced

01:07:11.090 --> 01:07:19.050
there's a lot of bang up and lockdown and violence

01:07:19.050 --> 01:07:22.389
upon screws you know they take it looking soft

01:07:23.309 --> 01:07:27.530
beaten as well they're subjected to a lot the

01:07:27.530 --> 01:07:34.329
workforce is quite quite small so you've got

01:07:34.329 --> 01:07:37.670
to understand that there's a lot of what I believe

01:07:37.670 --> 01:07:43.409
that the UK prison can learn is putting more

01:07:43.409 --> 01:07:48.150
money into kind of spending a lot more time on

01:07:48.150 --> 01:07:51.380
individuals you know what I mean Because I think

01:07:51.380 --> 01:07:54.719
what you're doing there is all this shit. You

01:07:54.719 --> 01:07:57.880
just want to pay the bills at the end of the

01:07:57.880 --> 01:08:01.960
month. You know, it doesn't matter to you whether

01:08:01.960 --> 01:08:05.300
people get out and stay out because if they did,

01:08:05.380 --> 01:08:08.980
then you wouldn't be in a job. So the more the

01:08:08.980 --> 01:08:10.300
merrier for them, you know what I mean, in a

01:08:10.300 --> 01:08:12.380
sense. Yeah, and especially here because a lot

01:08:12.380 --> 01:08:15.139
of our prisons are privately run too. So they're

01:08:15.139 --> 01:08:17.079
making a profit out of them, which is, I don't

01:08:17.079 --> 01:08:20.010
think, a very healthy... way of doing that particular

01:08:20.010 --> 01:08:24.270
system nah it's just damn I've done I've kind

01:08:24.270 --> 01:08:29.710
of like I think people are just nah it's just

01:08:29.710 --> 01:08:36.689
it's more like you know just lip service it sounds

01:08:36.689 --> 01:08:39.149
great we're doing this and we're doing that ah

01:08:39.149 --> 01:08:40.909
you fuck you're doing fuck all the people in

01:08:40.909 --> 01:08:46.149
there you know what I mean it angers me really

01:08:46.149 --> 01:08:49.909
because I know You know, there's no meetings

01:08:49.909 --> 01:08:53.350
in there. And there's no strong recovery. There's

01:08:53.350 --> 01:08:56.810
no way... Everything's got to go through details

01:08:56.810 --> 01:09:01.470
and, you know, security checks and gang culture.

01:09:02.029 --> 01:09:03.510
Fucking hell, there's people who just want to

01:09:03.510 --> 01:09:05.109
get their shit together and stop using drugs.

01:09:05.449 --> 01:09:07.970
There's many in there. You know what I mean?

01:09:08.010 --> 01:09:10.590
But you're just feeding them methadone and you're

01:09:10.590 --> 01:09:13.949
feeding them kind of anti -psychotics and sleepers

01:09:13.949 --> 01:09:22.640
just to keep them quiet. Well, it's just a bit.

01:09:22.739 --> 01:09:25.819
There's an injustice within the justice service.

01:09:27.819 --> 01:09:31.239
Yeah, I think what I see, again, I'm not in this

01:09:31.239 --> 01:09:33.119
realm at all. I'm a fireman, I'm a medic, and

01:09:33.119 --> 01:09:35.899
I'm in America now, so I'm not even back home.

01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:39.779
But what I see from the outside looking in is

01:09:39.779 --> 01:09:44.460
we don't fix this by locking everyone away. We

01:09:44.460 --> 01:09:47.340
don't fix this by arresting everyone. Let's take

01:09:47.340 --> 01:09:52.079
weed, for example. And we realize now some incredibly

01:09:52.079 --> 01:09:55.600
powerful medicinal effects. Now, dealing and

01:09:55.600 --> 01:09:57.600
all that stuff, that's a separate thing. But

01:09:57.600 --> 01:10:00.920
prostitution is another one. I mean, I personally

01:10:00.920 --> 01:10:04.199
have removed dead prostitutes or seen them in

01:10:04.199 --> 01:10:08.060
hotel rooms or dumpsters or whatever because

01:10:08.060 --> 01:10:10.640
these poor women are having to be in the shadows

01:10:10.640 --> 01:10:15.770
to do what they do. And to me... We can fix these

01:10:15.770 --> 01:10:17.869
areas, whether it's the Portuguese drug system

01:10:17.869 --> 01:10:22.130
or legalizing certain things, marijuana, prostitution,

01:10:22.170 --> 01:10:24.909
that are way better than alcohol, which you and

01:10:24.909 --> 01:10:26.470
I can go down the office right now and buy as

01:10:26.470 --> 01:10:29.390
much as we want. And then you fix it from there

01:10:29.390 --> 01:10:33.770
and you fix families so they don't create addicts

01:10:33.770 --> 01:10:36.949
and thugs and all these other things. But just

01:10:36.949 --> 01:10:40.289
locking people that have screwed up away. does

01:10:40.289 --> 01:10:42.649
not seem to work in america in england and all

01:10:42.649 --> 01:10:44.489
the other places in around the world that use

01:10:44.489 --> 01:10:48.010
that system it just doesn't work it just it it

01:10:48.010 --> 01:10:50.369
keeps it look some people need locking away that's

01:10:50.369 --> 01:10:53.090
to be all and end all of it because they're quite

01:10:53.090 --> 01:10:55.789
dangerous you know in society you know and there's

01:10:55.789 --> 01:11:00.140
some people that are locked up because like They

01:11:00.140 --> 01:11:01.739
can't cope with life and there's some people

01:11:01.739 --> 01:11:04.880
locked up because they're in addiction. There's

01:11:04.880 --> 01:11:07.079
a diverse bunch of people within the establishment

01:11:07.079 --> 01:11:09.100
in and around the world. There's a lot of innocent

01:11:09.100 --> 01:11:14.800
people as well. People set up. There's people

01:11:14.800 --> 01:11:17.039
that are just stupid and get nicked on conspiracies

01:11:17.039 --> 01:11:20.140
and do things that talk themselves into sentences.

01:11:20.399 --> 01:11:23.979
So there's a lot of reasons why people are locked

01:11:23.979 --> 01:11:27.210
up and there's a lot of reasons why. It was a

01:11:27.210 --> 01:11:31.369
way for a majority of them as well. So yeah,

01:11:31.409 --> 01:11:34.930
just to underline something, in that Norwegian

01:11:34.930 --> 01:11:37.390
prison model, they have people that they lock

01:11:37.390 --> 01:11:40.350
away. Like you said, the real sociopaths, they

01:11:40.350 --> 01:11:43.390
are locked away in a prison just like the ones

01:11:43.390 --> 01:11:45.770
that are around the world. But like you said,

01:11:45.829 --> 01:11:49.510
it's the addicts and the other people that are

01:11:49.510 --> 01:11:51.729
not waking up every day saying, I'm going to

01:11:51.729 --> 01:11:55.090
go on a summer camp and murder a bunch of kids.

01:11:56.189 --> 01:11:57.949
you know, trying to feed their addiction or whatever

01:11:57.949 --> 01:12:00.229
it is. That's completely wrong as well, but there

01:12:00.229 --> 01:12:03.449
are other ways of changing that. And I think

01:12:03.449 --> 01:12:06.729
that what we also miss is in my profession, we

01:12:06.729 --> 01:12:08.810
lose police officers every single day. I know

01:12:08.810 --> 01:12:11.569
London's had a bunch of them just stabbed recently.

01:12:12.310 --> 01:12:14.310
You know, prison guards, like you said, not only

01:12:14.310 --> 01:12:16.850
getting killed, but the suicide rates amongst

01:12:16.850 --> 01:12:20.180
them. So by fixing the system... The goal is

01:12:20.180 --> 01:12:22.960
to make it safer not only for society, but also

01:12:22.960 --> 01:12:25.539
my peers as well, the men and women on the streets

01:12:25.539 --> 01:12:27.340
that are risking their lives trying to combat

01:12:27.340 --> 01:12:30.079
crime, so that now they can focus on the people

01:12:30.079 --> 01:12:32.859
that truly are dangerous to our society instead

01:12:32.859 --> 01:12:35.739
of the addicts and the johns and all these other

01:12:35.739 --> 01:12:38.479
people that are getting arrested and kind of

01:12:38.479 --> 01:12:43.960
diluting our prison system and our police force

01:12:43.960 --> 01:12:48.890
as well. Just a resource, Andy, just a... Like,

01:12:48.890 --> 01:12:53.409
it's about kind of like alleviating the emergency

01:12:53.409 --> 01:12:55.369
service because people are getting calls up for

01:12:55.369 --> 01:12:59.010
overdoses, this, that and the other. It's, you

01:12:59.010 --> 01:13:01.310
know, the emergency services are there for emergencies

01:13:01.310 --> 01:13:04.829
now. For fucking people who pick up to those

01:13:04.829 --> 01:13:06.010
who are on an overdose, you know what I mean?

01:13:06.949 --> 01:13:08.930
Yeah. Yeah, and again, it boils down to, like

01:13:08.930 --> 01:13:12.170
we were saying before, the goal is for those

01:13:12.170 --> 01:13:14.810
toddlers to grow up and be happy. You know what

01:13:14.810 --> 01:13:17.350
I mean? And letting them grow up and be all disturbed

01:13:17.350 --> 01:13:20.510
and then trying to fix the problem is not the

01:13:20.510 --> 01:13:22.250
most effective way of doing it. But if we can

01:13:22.250 --> 01:13:25.789
address the addiction in the entire country at

01:13:25.789 --> 01:13:28.470
the ground level, that and then is going to affect

01:13:28.470 --> 01:13:30.329
the crime rate. Because as you were saying, the

01:13:30.329 --> 01:13:32.729
reason why a lot of people are doing these things,

01:13:32.890 --> 01:13:35.670
even the gangs, it all boils down to money ultimately,

01:13:35.930 --> 01:13:38.130
you know, slinging dope and whatever else they're

01:13:38.130 --> 01:13:43.289
doing. The reality is, James, you're never going.

01:13:43.899 --> 01:13:47.960
you're never gonna be in a position to kind of

01:13:47.960 --> 01:13:52.260
like help everyone in addiction even if you have

01:13:52.260 --> 01:13:57.000
the chance because like i said it's it's people

01:13:57.000 --> 01:13:59.300
can be tough customers you know what i mean yeah

01:13:59.300 --> 01:14:01.640
yeah no i do but i think that we can definitely

01:14:01.640 --> 01:14:04.300
improve the way we do it and reduce the amount

01:14:04.300 --> 01:14:06.359
of people you're always going to have you know

01:14:06.359 --> 01:14:10.319
that that group but um you know if if addicts

01:14:10.319 --> 01:14:13.380
like you said if addicts have a route to find

01:14:13.380 --> 01:14:16.020
help that's extremely easy versus a direct route

01:14:16.020 --> 01:14:17.699
to prison because they got caught with whatever

01:14:17.699 --> 01:14:20.439
on their possession, then I think that would

01:14:20.439 --> 01:14:22.819
be a great first step. There's the opportunity

01:14:22.819 --> 01:14:29.840
for people to reduce addiction in the community.

01:14:29.960 --> 01:14:34.260
There's an opportunity for that. It's just having

01:14:34.260 --> 01:14:36.340
enough resources to show people that it does

01:14:36.340 --> 01:14:38.319
work and that there is a way out. And that's

01:14:38.319 --> 01:14:40.630
what I feel. You know, it's important that I've

01:14:40.630 --> 01:14:42.270
got an opportunity and I believe I'm here for

01:14:42.270 --> 01:14:45.949
a reason to share my experience with others and

01:14:45.949 --> 01:14:47.409
go, look, do you know what? I've been through

01:14:47.409 --> 01:14:49.989
some fucking shit in my life. I mean, I've had

01:14:49.989 --> 01:14:53.489
cancer and meningitis, years in addiction, years

01:14:53.489 --> 01:14:55.689
in foreign prisons, years in prisons in the UK.

01:14:55.930 --> 01:15:00.430
And do you know what? I'm standing tall today

01:15:00.430 --> 01:15:02.670
and I don't use drugs. I don't want to use drugs.

01:15:02.750 --> 01:15:04.350
I don't have a desire to use any. I don't want

01:15:04.350 --> 01:15:07.630
to harm anyone. I just want to be of service

01:15:07.630 --> 01:15:12.420
to society. And I believe every addict feels

01:15:12.420 --> 01:15:16.060
ashamed. Yeah, no, exactly. Well, let's talk

01:15:16.060 --> 01:15:17.819
about giving back. So one of the things you did

01:15:17.819 --> 01:15:22.260
was write the book and tell your story. So where

01:15:22.260 --> 01:15:24.100
were you when you wrote the book and then how

01:15:24.100 --> 01:15:26.880
did that become the film that we saw recently?

01:15:27.840 --> 01:15:30.659
I was in Thailand in prison initially and I was

01:15:30.659 --> 01:15:32.579
doing a channel and I was writing bits and bobs

01:15:32.579 --> 01:15:34.220
down and then I went to Wandsworth and I got

01:15:34.220 --> 01:15:39.060
the chance to write in there. And then... you

01:15:39.060 --> 01:15:41.060
know, I got released and I finished it and then

01:15:41.060 --> 01:15:47.560
I sent it, submitted it to publishers. So I was

01:15:47.560 --> 01:15:49.380
on a different kind of, I was in like Thailand

01:15:49.380 --> 01:15:56.800
prisons, UK prisons, release, publish. Brilliant.

01:15:56.800 --> 01:15:59.680
And how long from publishing it were you approached

01:15:59.680 --> 01:16:11.560
to make it into a film? Brilliant, because just

01:16:11.560 --> 01:16:13.079
for everyone listening, if they haven't, so the

01:16:13.079 --> 01:16:14.920
book is A Prayer Before Dawn, the movie's the

01:16:14.920 --> 01:16:18.289
same title, but the book really... kind of leads

01:16:18.289 --> 01:16:21.350
you down a good significant chunk of your life,

01:16:21.430 --> 01:16:23.529
certainly the Thai side. I actually ended up

01:16:23.529 --> 01:16:25.050
getting the audiobook, so it was quite amusing.

01:16:25.210 --> 01:16:28.789
The guy that read that, his Thai voice was pretty

01:16:28.789 --> 01:16:33.810
cool to hear. But then the movie, they chose

01:16:33.810 --> 01:16:36.449
to just focus on the actual incarceration, which

01:16:36.449 --> 01:16:38.850
I think is great because some movies, you know,

01:16:38.909 --> 01:16:40.590
you read the book, you see the movie, sometimes

01:16:40.590 --> 01:16:44.630
it's not as good or it tells exactly the same

01:16:44.630 --> 01:16:46.409
story. Like, well, that was basically the book.

01:16:46.960 --> 01:16:51.640
But this kind of gives you, you know, a snapshot

01:16:51.640 --> 01:16:55.560
of from the day you came in through what we've

01:16:55.560 --> 01:16:58.600
talked about till, you know, when they fictionally

01:16:58.600 --> 01:17:01.279
had your dad, aka you, show up at the very end.

01:17:02.539 --> 01:17:06.619
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. All right. Well, then

01:17:06.619 --> 01:17:09.579
let's talk about one more thing before we do

01:17:09.579 --> 01:17:13.199
some wrap up questions to close up. You are now

01:17:13.199 --> 01:17:15.300
or you have written a second book. So do you

01:17:15.300 --> 01:17:18.130
have a title for that yet? yeah it's called surrender

01:17:18.130 --> 01:17:21.829
from the heart and it's a follow -up from a prayer

01:17:21.829 --> 01:17:29.270
before zone and it kind of talks about the journey

01:17:29.270 --> 01:17:33.010
you know after me after being released and you

01:17:33.010 --> 01:17:36.590
know what happened in between and it's quite

01:17:36.590 --> 01:17:39.390
a sad story it reflects as well on me past a

01:17:39.390 --> 01:17:43.869
little bit more in detail it talks about the

01:17:45.200 --> 01:17:48.000
The fall from grace, standing on a red carpet,

01:17:48.079 --> 01:17:52.659
to being in a cat tent a couple of days later

01:17:52.659 --> 01:17:55.579
in Liverpool. You know what I mean? What happened?

01:17:56.760 --> 01:17:59.340
So the movie was out, you were doing the promo,

01:17:59.439 --> 01:18:00.859
and then you found yourself back in addiction

01:18:00.859 --> 01:18:03.880
again? Yeah. I found myself diagnosed with cancer

01:18:03.880 --> 01:18:07.300
going through chemotherapy. You know, I found

01:18:07.300 --> 01:18:10.220
myself in a criminal fraternity again and doing

01:18:10.220 --> 01:18:13.579
things again that I didn't want to do. Just wondering

01:18:13.579 --> 01:18:15.979
what was going on with my life. I thought I was

01:18:15.979 --> 01:18:21.880
going to die. I just didn't care, you know, whether

01:18:21.880 --> 01:18:25.159
I did at the time. You know, I'm kind of really

01:18:25.159 --> 01:18:28.479
blessed and grateful, you know, that someone

01:18:28.479 --> 01:18:30.220
up there has been looking down on me and going,

01:18:30.319 --> 01:18:33.640
this guy has been through some fucking shit.

01:18:34.460 --> 01:18:38.060
Let's pull him out of it. Let's guide them and

01:18:38.060 --> 01:18:40.380
give them a bit of hope here and a chance to

01:18:40.380 --> 01:18:43.840
kind of, you know, have the opportunity to change

01:18:43.840 --> 01:18:45.359
other people's lives. You know what I mean? And

01:18:45.359 --> 01:18:48.159
that's what I want to do. I get messages from

01:18:48.159 --> 01:18:49.500
people that say, you know what, Bill, you're

01:18:49.500 --> 01:18:51.279
an inspiration and it's amazing what you've been

01:18:51.279 --> 01:18:53.300
through. And, you know, it's given me hope. And,

01:18:53.300 --> 01:18:55.439
you know, after reading your book, you know,

01:18:55.460 --> 01:18:57.100
I've got myself into a rehab. I read that last

01:18:57.100 --> 01:18:58.979
night about some guy from the Philippines telling

01:18:58.979 --> 01:19:02.140
me how he's got himself into a rehab. And I just

01:19:02.140 --> 01:19:04.199
had to read my story and watching my movie. And

01:19:04.199 --> 01:19:07.880
I'm thinking, wow. This just reaches far beyond

01:19:07.880 --> 01:19:11.439
just me here in Liverpool. It kind of travels

01:19:11.439 --> 01:19:14.979
worldwide and people, you know, are inspired

01:19:14.979 --> 01:19:19.539
and get up. And sometimes I sit back and I sink

01:19:19.539 --> 01:19:23.000
into the sofa and think, are these guys talking

01:19:23.000 --> 01:19:26.380
about me? And I think I don't acknowledge myself

01:19:26.380 --> 01:19:27.760
enough for it really, you know what I mean? I

01:19:27.760 --> 01:19:31.420
think, yeah, it's been tough and that's how it's

01:19:31.420 --> 01:19:34.000
been and, you know, go through it. But the reality

01:19:34.000 --> 01:19:37.819
of it is... I fucking had to fight my way out

01:19:37.819 --> 01:19:40.619
of it, you know what I mean? I've had to kind

01:19:40.619 --> 01:19:46.460
of really surrender, totally. And that's where

01:19:46.460 --> 01:19:48.479
the title came in for this new book, Surrender

01:19:48.479 --> 01:19:54.000
From The Harm. Just throw the towel in. Stop

01:19:54.000 --> 01:19:57.739
fighting. The reason for the title, because years

01:19:57.739 --> 01:20:00.579
ago, some guy said to me, Billy, do you know

01:20:00.579 --> 01:20:04.800
when we surrender from the heart, the war ends.

01:20:06.439 --> 01:20:10.880
And I thought, wow. That was a statement and

01:20:10.880 --> 01:20:13.939
a half. It was an impact. The war ends within.

01:20:15.380 --> 01:20:20.500
So, yeah, I've finished writing it. I'm just

01:20:20.500 --> 01:20:24.300
on the edit at the minute. I'm looking to submit

01:20:24.300 --> 01:20:31.600
it for publication. And I'm quite happy with

01:20:31.600 --> 01:20:35.020
the outcome of this story, to be fair. Did you

01:20:35.020 --> 01:20:37.140
find it cathartic? Did you find it almost healing

01:20:37.140 --> 01:20:40.199
when you wrote your story down as you got it

01:20:40.199 --> 01:20:43.100
out of your brain and onto paper? Yeah, and every

01:20:43.100 --> 01:20:45.020
time I write and put my thoughts and feelings

01:20:45.020 --> 01:20:48.600
down on paper, I'm honest and open about how

01:20:48.600 --> 01:20:52.020
I feel. It's quite authentic, and I believe that's

01:20:52.020 --> 01:20:57.640
what shows the story. I'm not someone who's kind

01:20:57.640 --> 01:21:04.289
of inventing. a kind of character that's some

01:21:04.289 --> 01:21:07.010
some tough customer and he's an hard case and

01:21:07.010 --> 01:21:09.630
he's bends and shell jaws and you know he can

01:21:09.630 --> 01:21:12.850
take life and whatever it throws at him on the

01:21:12.850 --> 01:21:16.350
chin it's not like that it's definitely not like

01:21:16.350 --> 01:21:19.670
that I mean it's like whoa I've had a few feelings

01:21:19.670 --> 01:21:21.729
here I feel a bit vulnerable I feel scared I

01:21:21.729 --> 01:21:24.130
feel insecure I'm quite sensitive when people

01:21:24.130 --> 01:21:26.550
say that I get paranoid I suffer with mental

01:21:26.550 --> 01:21:30.649
health you know I've had you know lows and highs

01:21:30.649 --> 01:21:33.229
and suffer the depression you know but you know

01:21:33.229 --> 01:21:36.289
what I'm going to struggle with a smile at the

01:21:36.289 --> 01:21:38.149
end of the day and that's how I get through it

01:21:38.149 --> 01:21:41.710
yeah and one thing I've found from a lot of people

01:21:41.710 --> 01:21:43.250
that I've had on here that have been through

01:21:43.250 --> 01:21:45.430
some horrible stuff themselves you know a lot

01:21:45.430 --> 01:21:48.010
of them have actually been right there ready

01:21:48.010 --> 01:21:51.270
to take their own life and one of the the biggest

01:21:51.270 --> 01:21:53.170
things the biggest common denominators i see

01:21:53.170 --> 01:21:54.890
with a lot of them who are doing really well

01:21:54.890 --> 01:21:58.329
now is just like you were saying realizing that

01:21:58.329 --> 01:22:00.909
they can start helping other people whether they

01:22:00.909 --> 01:22:04.090
came out of ptsd and now they're they're helping

01:22:04.090 --> 01:22:06.109
other veterans or soldiers you know firefighters

01:22:06.109 --> 01:22:09.369
whatever it is um or addicts that come through

01:22:09.369 --> 01:22:11.689
and now they're helping with rehab programs that

01:22:11.689 --> 01:22:14.449
giving back seems to be such a healing thing

01:22:14.449 --> 01:22:18.800
for that individual as well yeah i didn't even

01:22:18.800 --> 01:22:21.199
know what these names meant like ptsd i thought

01:22:21.199 --> 01:22:24.680
that was something you bought in subway all these

01:22:24.680 --> 01:22:30.560
like names adhd and ptsd and copd and all this

01:22:30.560 --> 01:22:34.779
is attached to kind of like you know your mental

01:22:34.779 --> 01:22:39.899
health don't i mean yeah and i've realized that

01:22:39.899 --> 01:22:41.800
like just giving a bit back and giving someone

01:22:41.800 --> 01:22:44.789
a little bit of open and trying to inspire and

01:22:44.789 --> 01:22:51.369
ignite that hope within them. It's fucking rewarding,

01:22:51.689 --> 01:22:54.170
man. Wow, you know, when someone goes, thanks,

01:22:54.189 --> 01:22:58.390
Bill. That means it from the very depths of the

01:22:58.390 --> 01:23:02.529
soul. You think, wow. Wow, that's just like...

01:23:02.529 --> 01:23:07.609
I sometimes think, you know, that's worth more

01:23:07.609 --> 01:23:12.010
than gold to see someone else come alive and

01:23:12.010 --> 01:23:16.779
change. Because that one patient as an individual

01:23:16.779 --> 01:23:21.960
can have an impact on a number of lives in society,

01:23:22.300 --> 01:23:24.399
in the community, you know, worldwide. It's like

01:23:24.399 --> 01:23:27.439
there's a ripple effect. My family, you know,

01:23:27.539 --> 01:23:30.600
they've all recovered because I've recovered.

01:23:31.939 --> 01:23:34.479
When I'm not in recovery and when I'm unwell,

01:23:34.539 --> 01:23:38.460
everyone else is paying a price. And it's, you

01:23:38.460 --> 01:23:41.199
know, it's... I spent time with my brother and

01:23:41.199 --> 01:23:46.760
I spent time with my mum and I spent time with

01:23:46.760 --> 01:23:51.100
close friends. That's something that we're only

01:23:51.100 --> 01:23:54.199
here for a few short decades and then we're gone.

01:23:55.460 --> 01:23:58.600
So let's utilise our time and for the greater

01:23:58.600 --> 01:24:05.100
good be of service to others. Yeah, I couldn't

01:24:05.100 --> 01:24:06.600
agree more. I really couldn't. I think that's

01:24:06.600 --> 01:24:09.369
the thing that I love about the people that I

01:24:09.369 --> 01:24:11.430
work with is fundamentally, that's what they're

01:24:11.430 --> 01:24:13.109
trying to do too, whether they're, you know,

01:24:13.130 --> 01:24:15.489
firefighters or police officers or, you know,

01:24:15.489 --> 01:24:18.470
ER physicians, you know, people are trying to

01:24:18.470 --> 01:24:20.689
just make the world better. And like you said,

01:24:20.810 --> 01:24:24.210
if you've been through hell and you've come out

01:24:24.210 --> 01:24:26.050
the other side, now it's time to tell your story

01:24:26.050 --> 01:24:28.829
and be that arm that reaches out to the other

01:24:28.829 --> 01:24:30.270
people that are struggling to help them through.

01:24:31.170 --> 01:24:34.069
Yeah, definitely. All right. Well, I want to

01:24:34.069 --> 01:24:36.789
transition to some closing questions. The first

01:24:36.789 --> 01:24:39.159
one I always ask, We talked about your books.

01:24:39.260 --> 01:24:42.220
Is there a book that you love to recommend to

01:24:42.220 --> 01:24:43.680
other people? It can be about what we talked

01:24:43.680 --> 01:24:45.500
about today or something completely different.

01:24:47.279 --> 01:24:52.739
Is there a book? I've read one called Who Will...

01:24:52.739 --> 01:24:55.779
What's it called? Was it Gregory? Sandra Gregory.

01:24:58.720 --> 01:25:01.640
Yeah, Sandra Gregory. I kind of liked it. It

01:25:01.640 --> 01:25:05.640
was a female version of being inside a prison

01:25:05.640 --> 01:25:08.529
in Bangkok. I think it was Forget You Had a Daughter.

01:25:08.590 --> 01:25:10.430
That's right. Forget You Had a Daughter by Sandra

01:25:10.430 --> 01:25:12.890
Gregory. I kind of enjoyed reading that. That

01:25:12.890 --> 01:25:17.270
was the last book I read. Brilliant. And it was

01:25:17.270 --> 01:25:24.970
like a female kind of version of my story. Excellent.

01:25:25.010 --> 01:25:28.510
What about a movie and or a documentary that

01:25:28.510 --> 01:25:34.569
you love? A movie that I love. And I've always

01:25:34.569 --> 01:25:36.750
kind of felt this was... One of my favourites

01:25:36.750 --> 01:25:42.329
was True Romance. Great film. Gary Oldman as

01:25:42.329 --> 01:25:48.930
the white Rastafarian? Yeah. That was brilliant,

01:25:49.010 --> 01:25:50.949
that one. Yeah, it was. And then what about a

01:25:50.949 --> 01:25:52.449
documentary? Have you seen any of those that

01:25:52.449 --> 01:26:04.460
you love? Documentaries. I'm quite into aliens

01:26:04.460 --> 01:26:09.000
and time travel, mate. And all that kind of movement.

01:26:09.399 --> 01:26:13.060
So I don't really know of anyone kind of like,

01:26:13.260 --> 01:26:15.720
you know, I like the unknown, mate. You know,

01:26:15.760 --> 01:26:18.640
like, I like to think that there's something

01:26:18.640 --> 01:26:21.659
beyond just this living room I'm sitting in at

01:26:21.659 --> 01:26:27.600
the minute. So as for documentaries, Professor

01:26:27.600 --> 01:26:33.590
Green is pretty good at what he does. Professor

01:26:33.590 --> 01:26:38.270
Green. Perfect. All right. Then is there a person

01:26:38.270 --> 01:26:40.670
that you would recommend to come on this podcast

01:26:40.670 --> 01:26:42.729
to talk to the first responders and military

01:26:42.729 --> 01:26:52.430
of the world as a guest? Yeah, me mum. No. Let

01:26:52.430 --> 01:26:54.590
me think. Would you like me to name the people?

01:26:55.130 --> 01:26:57.189
Yeah, I mean, if you've got someone on top. Yeah,

01:26:57.210 --> 01:26:59.010
I mean, even your mum. You say no, but I mean.

01:26:59.340 --> 01:27:01.619
the mother of someone who's gone through that

01:27:01.619 --> 01:27:03.439
trauma would probably be an interesting perspective

01:27:03.439 --> 01:27:07.520
in itself. Yeah, she'd be good at it. I kind

01:27:07.520 --> 01:27:09.319
of like to joke about it because I know she's

01:27:09.319 --> 01:27:11.220
a bit like, oh, I'm not doing that, I'm not doing

01:27:11.220 --> 01:27:12.739
this. So we always throw it in the middle of

01:27:12.739 --> 01:27:15.460
it all. She kicks me under the table and goes,

01:27:15.539 --> 01:27:20.319
oh, I'm not doing that. But yeah, I know what,

01:27:20.359 --> 01:27:23.960
I'll tell you, there's a guy called Tim Morris

01:27:23.960 --> 01:27:28.220
who works in HMP Walton. He works on the radio

01:27:28.220 --> 01:27:32.340
show in there and he's changing lives while he's

01:27:32.340 --> 01:27:35.800
in there by giving people the opportunity to

01:27:35.800 --> 01:27:40.479
get involved in that kind of industry and media

01:27:40.479 --> 01:27:43.300
stuff, you know what I mean? And finding the

01:27:43.300 --> 01:27:47.500
voice through radio. So yeah, I could speak to

01:27:47.500 --> 01:27:49.880
him and ask him would he be interested. Yeah,

01:27:49.920 --> 01:27:52.100
absolutely. So he's a prisoner but he's doing

01:27:52.100 --> 01:27:54.500
that project to try and... No, no, he's a...

01:27:55.390 --> 01:27:58.909
Prison staff member. Oh, excellent. Yeah. Yeah,

01:27:58.909 --> 01:28:01.729
yeah, absolutely. I was just thinking, yeah,

01:28:01.770 --> 01:28:08.750
you could do that, yeah, man. Perfect. Yeah.

01:28:08.890 --> 01:28:10.750
All right, well, thank you. So then the last

01:28:10.750 --> 01:28:12.470
one before we talk about where we can find the

01:28:12.470 --> 01:28:14.109
book and the movie and people reach out to you,

01:28:14.210 --> 01:28:17.229
what do you do now to decompress, to kind of

01:28:17.229 --> 01:28:21.470
go to your happy place these days? I teach young

01:28:21.470 --> 01:28:26.090
kids out of the box. And it's... The most wonderful

01:28:26.090 --> 01:28:35.489
thing that I've ever done lately, which is seeing

01:28:35.489 --> 01:28:39.130
someone else grow into a fella. Yeah. Do you

01:28:39.130 --> 01:28:41.750
find it kind of weird that you're in that spot

01:28:41.750 --> 01:28:43.970
that your boxing coach was when you were a kid?

01:28:44.350 --> 01:28:48.470
Yeah. I do like it once in a while. you know

01:28:48.470 --> 01:28:51.210
to give myself time to not only a young young

01:28:51.210 --> 01:28:53.689
lads but you know there's there's there's females

01:28:53.689 --> 01:28:56.949
and males that are interested in getting you

01:28:56.949 --> 01:28:58.789
know short out of boxing out to learn a little

01:28:58.789 --> 01:29:00.590
bit of music and a few skills that i've learned

01:29:00.590 --> 01:29:03.050
over the years and you know i offer you know

01:29:03.050 --> 01:29:07.149
my experience and teach them the best i can really

01:29:07.149 --> 01:29:10.930
and give them the time that i was given as a

01:29:10.930 --> 01:29:14.050
child what i mean i think it's like sort of giving

01:29:14.050 --> 01:29:16.939
something back to to society as a whole as well,

01:29:16.979 --> 01:29:20.380
you know what I mean? Yeah, it's one way I like

01:29:20.380 --> 01:29:23.579
to kind of like write and relax and watch a few

01:29:23.579 --> 01:29:27.140
programs on the telly and, you know, spend a

01:29:27.140 --> 01:29:28.800
bit of time with my family which is a lot at

01:29:28.800 --> 01:29:34.800
the minute. Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah, I had a guy

01:29:34.800 --> 01:29:38.079
called Pat Russo who's a retired New York police

01:29:38.079 --> 01:29:43.500
officer who started a kid's boxing program and

01:29:43.789 --> 01:29:46.069
trying to get kids that are at risk off the streets

01:29:46.069 --> 01:29:49.710
and focused in boxing. And they even offer them

01:29:49.710 --> 01:29:51.970
prizes if they get certain grades at school.

01:29:52.029 --> 01:29:54.409
And it's incredible. They've done so well. And

01:29:54.409 --> 01:29:58.229
in that area where this gym is, again, the crime

01:29:58.229 --> 01:30:00.329
came down, the relationship with the police officers

01:30:00.329 --> 01:30:03.489
improved. So all it takes is members of the community

01:30:03.489 --> 01:30:06.710
to go outside their door and think of a way they

01:30:06.710 --> 01:30:09.329
can actually help their neighbors around them

01:30:09.329 --> 01:30:14.230
and start fixing the country themselves. Yeah,

01:30:14.230 --> 01:30:17.329
definitely, man. Brilliant. All right, so then

01:30:17.329 --> 01:30:21.149
to finish, where can people find the books, the

01:30:21.149 --> 01:30:23.630
movie, and how can they reach out to you if they

01:30:23.630 --> 01:30:26.930
were wanting to talk? You can get me on Twitter

01:30:26.930 --> 01:30:32.010
or Facebook or Instagram. There's the usual social

01:30:32.010 --> 01:30:36.890
media sites. My email is also, you know, displays

01:30:36.890 --> 01:30:39.930
on my Twitter account. The book you can get on

01:30:39.930 --> 01:30:44.079
Amazon. You can get the movie on Sky On Demand,

01:30:44.159 --> 01:30:50.159
iTunes, Google. You can contact Maverick House

01:30:50.159 --> 01:30:56.819
Publishers who supply the book as well. That's

01:30:56.819 --> 01:31:00.699
available on there. And it should be on Netflix

01:31:00.699 --> 01:31:04.899
pretty soon. I spoke to the distributor and he

01:31:04.899 --> 01:31:07.779
said, you know, Netflix will have a broader audience

01:31:07.779 --> 01:31:11.460
in the UK. Yeah, well, it is right now. In America,

01:31:11.539 --> 01:31:13.180
it's on Netflix at the moment. That's where I

01:31:13.180 --> 01:31:16.760
watched it. Yeah, well, it's not only over here,

01:31:16.840 --> 01:31:19.260
yeah, so you've got all the mincebags downloading

01:31:19.260 --> 01:31:24.060
it and then asking me how much I'm making and

01:31:24.060 --> 01:31:25.420
I'm thinking, well, I'm not making nothing if

01:31:25.420 --> 01:31:29.279
you're downloading it for free. Well, like, I'm

01:31:29.279 --> 01:31:33.579
guilty of doing that myself, so who am I to tell

01:31:33.579 --> 01:31:36.560
this? You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm a selfish

01:31:36.560 --> 01:31:39.649
in that area, I'm quite. It doesn't really matter.

01:31:39.770 --> 01:31:41.369
As long as, you know, if you like it and you

01:31:41.369 --> 01:31:43.489
enjoy it and it is what it is, then yeah, fair

01:31:43.489 --> 01:31:47.010
enough. It is what it is. Yeah, well, like we

01:31:47.010 --> 01:31:48.689
were talking before, hopefully, you know, the

01:31:48.689 --> 01:31:51.949
new project, the Surrender from the Heart, you

01:31:51.949 --> 01:31:53.050
know, you're going to have your hands on the

01:31:53.050 --> 01:31:56.010
reins a little bit more and, you know, I hope

01:31:56.010 --> 01:31:59.369
that that will be the next platform for you.

01:31:59.409 --> 01:32:01.050
And like you said, now you're in this space where

01:32:01.050 --> 01:32:02.829
you're wanting the help and I think that's going

01:32:02.829 --> 01:32:06.789
to pay dividends in the currency greater than

01:32:06.789 --> 01:32:13.310
money. Yeah, money's just material. Like I said

01:32:13.310 --> 01:32:15.270
before, we're only here for a few short decades.

01:32:15.489 --> 01:32:21.670
Let's make it worthwhile. Let's take care of

01:32:21.670 --> 01:32:24.489
your mum and take care of your family and be

01:32:24.489 --> 01:32:28.890
a good husband or a good boyfriend or be kind

01:32:28.890 --> 01:32:31.829
to someone, just be nice. It ain't going to be

01:32:31.829 --> 01:32:33.170
like that all the time because you're going to

01:32:33.170 --> 01:32:36.170
have your own moments, but it's just about life.

01:32:38.740 --> 01:32:43.199
believing that, you know, there's good around

01:32:43.199 --> 01:32:47.680
you. Absolutely. Yeah. And you know what, James,

01:32:47.819 --> 01:32:50.779
I really appreciate your time and, you know,

01:32:50.840 --> 01:32:56.359
I apologise for the delay in, you know, this

01:32:56.359 --> 01:32:58.000
interview because I've been wanting to do it

01:32:58.000 --> 01:33:00.640
for quite some time and things have come up and

01:33:00.640 --> 01:33:05.180
I haven't had the opportunity to do it. But you

01:33:05.180 --> 01:33:07.789
know what, I'm really grateful. for your time

01:33:07.789 --> 01:33:12.029
you know it's not just about me and you interviewing

01:33:12.029 --> 01:33:14.270
me it's it's a pleasure to be interviewed by

01:33:14.270 --> 01:33:17.329
you and i've quite enjoyed that and you know

01:33:17.329 --> 01:33:19.630
i wish you well in in all that you do to be honest

01:33:19.630 --> 01:33:22.829
well thank you so much i'm glad that we did delay

01:33:22.829 --> 01:33:24.569
because i think you know finding you where you

01:33:24.569 --> 01:33:28.090
are now is is a great place and now you can reflect

01:33:28.090 --> 01:33:31.229
on you know where you were before so i think

01:33:31.229 --> 01:33:33.189
this was the perfect time to do it so i just

01:33:33.189 --> 01:33:35.829
thank you so much for taking the time to to talk

01:33:35.829 --> 01:33:37.750
and um you know i hope we talk again soon one

01:33:37.750 --> 01:33:39.510
day oh definitely thanks