Welcome to the Behind the Shield podcast. My
name's James Gearing, and this is episode 181,
and I'm so excited to bring to you my next guest.
We've been trying to make this happen for well
over a year, and we were finally able to sit
down and record this. If you have seen the movie
or read the book A Prayer Before Dawn, that was
Billy's story. So Billy Moore is a fellow Brit.
We talk about his early childhood. He found himself
in prison in England, then got out of addiction,
got clean, went traveling to Thailand. And then
after another blip, he ended up in prison in
Thailand. And that's what the movie and the book
are mainly focusing on. and the nightmarish conditions,
how he ultimately ended up fighting Muay Thai
in this prison, and then how he was able to get
back to the UK. So an incredible life story,
some extremely interesting insight into the effects
of early trauma and the grasp of addiction and
where it can send you. But I think a very, very
powerful, inspiring story, and I was so glad
that we were able to make it happen. So with
that being said, as I always say, please go to
your podcast apps, subscribe to the show, leave
feedback. I love reading the feedback that you
guys are leaving. And most importantly, share
these incredible stories. And after that, make
sure that you at least see the movie or read
the book, A Prayer Before Dawn. And then when
he releases it, Billy's new book will be coming
out in a few months, and I'll make sure to post
that as well. So with all that being said, I
introduce to you, Billy Moore. Enjoy. Well, Billy,
I just want to start by saying thank you so much
for coming on the show. I know that we've been
going back and forth for a while now. And having
read the book and knowing your story, this is
really, you know, a story I think that people
should hear. So I want to just say thank you
first for taking the time to speak to the audience.
Thank you. It's really nice to get the chance
to be here. Speak to your audience regarding
my story. All right, brilliant. So I always start
at the very, very beginning. So if you wouldn't
mind, where were you born? I was born in Liverpool,
UK, England. Brilliant. And then what was your
family dynamic when you were young? What did
your parents do and how many brothers and sisters
did you have? There were six of us. I'm the oldest
out of six. My dad, I've never known him to where
he drank a lot. The house was kind of... Very
dysfunctional. There was a lot of violence. There
was a lot of anger. My mum worked every hour,
God sent. She'd done a lot of little jobs, like
working in pubs and little bits and bobs, really,
just to make ends meet. And growing up, it was
like I don't think I was ever allowed to be a
child, really. I had to care for five other kids.
It's one of my other siblings, really. Yeah,
so you were kind of like almost that father figure
when you got a little bit older then. Yeah, yeah.
I grew up pretty quick, honestly, to Liverpool.
Right. And then when, you know, you said your
dad was an alcoholic. Was there abuse within
the firehouse? I mean, the firehouse, excuse
me. Was there abuse within the household? Yeah,
that was subjected to a lot of, like, violence
and kind of physical kind of beatings and name
-calling. never anything other than that really
yeah because the reason i i like to always ask
people about their early life is when you know
we're going to talk about some things obviously
ending up in prison is kind of one of the the
cores of your story but we as first responders
police and fire and ems we see these households
with these young kids that are there you know
in in these different states and you know you
go to some of these households you're like my
god how are these kids gonna come out of this
and and function you know normally in society
because some some of these places are just you
know horrendous the kids have nothing there's
no food in the fridge and yet you know there's
the parents are taking care of themselves or
they're drinking or they're on drugs and you
know we we see that and it's interesting talking
to people like you where we see you know how
that plays out further in in life oh yeah definitely
i mean Now you put it that way, I can kind of
paint a picture for you. Growing up in Liverpool
in the house that I was living in with my dad,
the way he was, because he was a big man and
it was quite intimidating. He drank a lot, to
be fair. I used to think that was normal. But
with drinking, violence and anger and outbursts,
and there was no love in the household at all.
There was a lot of fear. And I felt... like this
need to escape from my own home and spend time
on the streets with with groups of lads and you
know and they were my peers and you know by standing
on those corners you know i was kind of led down
a different path now my dad was a boxer and i
wanted to kind of impress him and prove to him
that i could fight and you know gain his acceptance
and his love and approval No matter what I did,
it kind of just fell flat on its face, basically.
So, yeah, it was like I was scared. I was young.
I felt really vulnerable. I had low self -esteem.
You know, I remember getting my ear bits off
when I was 14 years old, 14, 15, in a street
fight. And that was like, that affected me massively
as well, you know, like around girls and growing
up. So there was a lot. a lot of stuff that impacted
me youth as we grew up yeah and that's the thing
i mean you you see that with with you know it
doesn't have to be a specific you know economic
scale it's not just the poor but in a household
where there isn't that that father or mother
mother figure you know raising their kids and
showing them this is normal even to the kids
that you see now when you when you're coaching
that mentor in the boxing gym you know these
these real men who are who are saying look this
is this is how you conduct yourself this is how
you treat a woman this is how you protect the
weak you know if you don't have that like you
said it's a free -for -all and a lot of the kids
whether it's in england or america find themselves
in these gangs with the absolute worst role models
yeah well what i want to My first story that
I wrote a prayer before dawn, it was more brief
on growing up, giving people a brief introduction
on my background and probably the way I was conditioned
from an early childhood to become what I became.
Whereas this second story kind of delves a little
bit more into growing up. It delves into kind
of like, you know, the way I felt in the household,
the fear I was subjected to. having to watch
my mother getting beat up on a regular basis,
you know, hearing the screams and not being able
to protect her because it was really small. And
my mum said to me when I was about nine years
old, one Christmas, what was your life? And I
said, I want weights. And she looked at me, like,
shocked and said, why would you want weights?
Why wouldn't you want, like, a bike or, you know,
a Millennium Falcon from Star Wars? Because it
was all that rage at the time. Because I feel
like I need to be big and strong and protected.
And I remember saying that. And that was something
that really resonated with me for years. Not
being able to kind of protect my mum and, you
know, being in fear of being attacked and hated.
You know what I mean? Yeah. When you worry, I
mean, when you've got a household full of kids
and, you know, you're being abused like that,
then you're vulnerable. And like you said, that's
fear ruling it. at some point you know violence
is going to play in there's no question yeah
so it definitely plays a big role in in our turns
out you know i know we have choices and i made
decisions and you know there's a lot of poor
choices i was conditioned to believe um it was
okay to to do those things because it's like
monkey she monkey do that kind of attitude you
know um You know, dating is your role model.
Your father's supposed to be your role model.
And my mum, because there were so many of us,
she had six of us in a short space of time because
she had six of us and six children within eight
years. So you can imagine her hands were full.
And she never had the time to, like, be there
for each and every one of us in that way. So
it was quite difficult. So we never, there was
that lack of love. Although I knew I was, it
wasn't kind of into me. Yeah. Now, what age did
you start boxing? I started to box at the age
of 13. I joined a club in speaking Liverpool
called St. Ambrose ABC, which was then sponsored
by a furniture company called Gemini. I first
decided to go, I joined a karate club, Shotokan.
I did Shotokan. Keon Kata, because it was all
about Bruce Lee back in the day. You know, we
entered the dragon and all that stuff. I don't
know, I just kind of found myself doing that
combat. I was never a team player, if that makes
sense. No one had ever passed me the ball in
school. Yeah, that does make sense if you'd seen
me when I was young. I felt independently better
off doing my own thing, really. Now, did you
find any kind of mentors in the karate dojo or
the boxing gym when you were younger? Not so
much the karate, but in boxing, you know, I had
a good trainer. He took his time with me and,
you know, I learned to kind of box pretty quick,
you know, and within a few months of learning,
I was in the ring fighting and competing. Right,
and what was your boxing career like? I mean,
what were your accolades? I think I had about
16 fights and I've lost about four. I won my
first five on the run and then I lost my sixth
in Ireland and then it kind of affected my confidence.
You know, and I lost a couple on the run then
because I felt like, whoa, you know what I mean?
So on top of the Wales I faced and then all of
a sudden I'm getting... And that's what happened.
And then after about 16 fights, you know, during
the summer holidays, the breaks from the boxing
shows, you know, standing on the corners, away
from the arm. You know, one thing led to another,
you know, drinking, then it became drugs. And
then I snowballed quickly into addiction. Right,
and with the boxing, like... Like you said, you
got the weights and you wanted to protect your
mum. Did you find you went from the vulnerable
kid to almost the bully because you suddenly
realised that you were powerful and you were
able to inflict violence now? No, I think I became
more of someone who was sick inside, being sick
inside and wouldn't tolerate. I was definitely
against people who bullied. I remember writing
this in my first story. I was like a rebel without
a cause. I was always being the underdog's corner.
After watching it and witnessing it and being
subjected to it, it was something that I didn't
like. Yeah. Actually, I was talking to someone
yesterday about that, the concept of violence.
People think, well... the answer is to not be
violent at all. And I think that the answer is
actually to be capable of violence so you can
protect the weak, but not always resort to it
if you can get around it. But if you're not a
threat to the bully, then you're not going to
be able to deter them from being a bully in the
first place. Yeah. Yeah, no, I always felt I
was quite... I just stand up for myself, you
know. It got to a point where I never had ever
went looking for it. I was never one of those
kids you want to do. just scrapped everyone it
was always like if it came to me then yeah you
know it happened and i wouldn't you know i wouldn't
tolerate it or accept it yeah all right so then
you you were talking about getting into addiction
was that what led you to your first stint in
prison yeah definitely you know it was um it
was a time no spiral you know picked up a drug
from the from an early age and it was Within
a matter of months, I was using class A's. I
was committing crimes to fund a habit that I
had developed. I was doing things that I didn't
want to do. I was going to places that I didn't
want to go. I felt myself isolated and separated
from society. I was bringing shame on my family.
I was bringing shame on myself. I had no integrity.
My morals and my principles and my values were
not doing that. My drugs became more important
than anyone else. I became a monster. I was driven
by something more powerful than me and I couldn't
stop. No matter what, if you put me in a cell
and I could pass a lie detector test, I'd never,
never do it again. I really believed in it because
I wanted it so much. And then I'd get back out
and within... seconds I was you know that choice
was taken away from me as soon as I picked up
again you know I think it'll be different this
time you know I'll try and do something you know
you know that right we repeat the same mistake
and expect a different result and it was just
a ball of insanity well that's what was happening
and then it wasn't until like years later that
I understood that I had no awareness and there
was no education and there was no support there
was no guidance and In them times, it was just
like, here's a key and here's a door. We're going
to shut it and we'll open you when you finish
your sentence. And that was it. And that's how
it was for a long time. What was the initial
drug that really got you in trouble? The first
one was, I'd say it started with the gateway
drug, cannabis, and then it led straight on to
heroin and crack cocaine. Right. Excuse me. That's
something that I see from the outside looking
in. Obviously, I haven't ever been in prison
and I'm observing both back home in England and
here now in America. But it seems like the way
that we've done this, I'll just put it that way,
the way that we do in prison, the way that we're
viewing drugs and addiction doesn't seem to be
working because we keep churning these men and
women out and then they go back to their addiction
and they're back in prison. It's this vicious
circle, the revolving door. What was, without
loading the question, what was the addiction
help that you had both inside and outside when
you were trying to kick the habit? Absolutely
nothing. It was just, I'll give you a prescription
to get off drugs and give you different drugs
to come off the drugs that you're on. So all
it became was a vicious cycle of using different
substances, different drugs to come off drugs.
There was never any identification. There was
never any... I don't know. It was prescription
drugs that they give you. It was no help. And
the prison was like, you know, there was never
no help there either at all. So I couldn't really,
hands on heart, say that there was any support.
Maybe there'd be like... you know someone's telling
me to get my shit together and that was about
as good as it got yeah yeah because i mean again
what a great example of how they're doing it
well and i'll be very brief because people have
heard this you know several times now but in
portugal back in 2000 they decriminalized drugs
as far as an addict not not selling not not smuggling
but the addicts themselves And so they became
patients instead of criminals. So if you come
in and you're arrested and you're found in possession
of a personal amount, then you get filtered through
an addiction program where they have addiction
help and psychological therapy and job creation
and all these things. And they've literally reversed
their epidemic in Portugal from the worst in
Europe to the best. And that's what I'm seeing
is... if we're just locking up our addicts and
then you know obviously i'm sure in prison the
addiction is probably terrible as well as we
see certainly in later in your story um but you're
not you're not treating why these men and women
are drinking why they're taking drugs maybe even
you know why they're violent which is the underlying
trauma and you're never ever going to kick that
until that's taken care of, that's addressed.
And if we're not dealing with those issues in
or out of prison, either way, it should be both,
then we're never going to fix this addiction.
Yeah, and I agree with you. There's a lot of
underlying kind of contributing factors to why
people use. However, Dave, you know, and I'm
speaking from experience, for years and years,
probably, you know, people were kind of trying
to help me and offer me support and guidance,
but I wasn't ready or willing to listen at that
stage. because I was just kind of blocking out
all these demons that would torment me. You know,
I'd rip my shoulder apart every evening and I
couldn't face reality on a daily basis. So I
kind of want to block it out. It was only when,
you know, the drugs couldn't do that for me no
more that I had to surrender from the art and
go, you know what, I need to kind of just put
my hands up and go, I can't do this no more.
This is beating me. It's like getting in the
boxing ring. coming out back in blue and then
you know getting back in again and you're still
getting beat you know sometimes you go look we're
going to throw the towel in Bill you ain't going
to win this competition but you just keep getting
back in day after day after day with a gorilla
and you're thinking you know what I'm not going
to win this and then it comes to a time when
you go okay hands up that's it yeah Yeah, well,
especially if you're using the same strategy
each time and you keep getting beaten instead
of reimagining a strategy where maybe you'll
overcome it. Yeah, definitely. Right, well, I'd
love to kind of transition into Thailand. So
what initially took you to Thailand back in,
was it 2005? Is that right? 2005, correct. What
happened, what initially took me there? Yeah,
yeah. incarcerated in prisons in the UK, using
drugs, so I finally kind of made that decision
that something had to change and I went into
a rehabilitation programme. And I asked, it was
me, put my hands up, said, look, I need help.
And the minute I asked for help, it came. That's
what I'm trying to say. You've got to be willing
at that stage, you know what I mean? It came
in the form of a rehab in Bristol. In 2004, I
got myself clean, I got myself involved in recovery,
became aware of my addiction. And then I got
a passport, a bank account. Things started to
come into my life. And then I was invited to
go to Thailand. It was a 12 -week backpacking
holiday that turned into a five -year nightmare,
basically. I'm just touching on Bristol for a
second. So was there a specific event that made
you put your hands up and say, I'm ready now?
Yeah, I climbed on a prison roof in Walton, in
Liverpool, HMP Walton. And it was a negative
way of asking for help, to be honest. And he
put me in solitary confinement for over seven
months. I got a few punches, a few kicks. you
know, nothing that I didn't expect. But it was
at that time when I was in that solitary confinement
for that amount of time that, you know, there
was no drugs in my body, you know, couldn't access
any. I started to think about, like, my future,
you know, and my past and, you know, what the
arms had done to people and, you know, all the
guilt and shame kicked in and, you know, then
I wanted to change. It was like, you know, I
phoned my mum and I said, Mum, I couldn't even
speak to my mum. I remember picking up the phone
and... My mum spoke to me and I couldn't answer
because just hearing the voice, you know, I had
a lump in my throat and tears in my eyes and
I was afraid to blink and there was two, you
know, officers, prison officers standing next
to me. And I thought, I can't show any vulnerability
in front of these. And she just knew, she just
said, son, get some help. I know you need it.
And that's what I did. I went back to Michelle
and I wrote a letter and sat down. That's amazing.
It's funny because that's not the intervention
that you would think, solitary confinement, but
being forced to be there with your own thoughts
and have to basically face your demons there,
whether you like it or not. It was a very powerful
moment for you. No matter what people said or
tried to do, it was like I had to really sit
there and be alone with them. And the thoughts
that came through the back door of my mind when
invited were really unshavery and, you know,
wasn't very pleasant. And, you know, it was thoughts
of suicide. It was thoughts of, like, engineering,
you know, depression and mental health. And it
was quite difficult at that time of my life.
You know, the guy next door to me, he hung himself.
Oh, God. And I thought I was speaking to him
10 minutes before he did. And we were, you know,
and I was just like, just life was so kind of
like, there was no value in it, you know what
I mean? People just died and it was like, you
know, I thought, oh, I need to get something,
I need to get something shorter there. And that's
what happened, that was me intervention, it was
me mum kind of just saying, look, stop fighting,
just ask for help, son, you need it. She knew,
she just knew. I didn't even have to respond
on the phone, she just knew. I was afraid to
answer because at that time I was quite sad and
quite hurt and bang, you know, it clicked into
place and that was my intervention. And what
did the treatment look like in the facility in
Bristol? It was a 12 -step programme and it was
group therapy, people challenging each other's
behaviours. I was very kind of like... angry
at the time because I felt their using was a
tea party compared to mine I was comparing myself
to their background and you know judging and
I was in despair with it all I always felt it
was different and I'd separate myself pretty
quickly and you know it was it was it was something
you know that I learned that was called denial
I was in denial about you know my own problems
because I felt I was unique when actually when
we shut down and I discussed with other people
and then it was identifying with their similar
kind of problems it was I realized that I wasn't
alone that wasn't unique and that I wasn't separate
and different from from the rest of society that
you know I was just a crazy mixed up kid you
know from a two -bit sound struggling with life
on life's terms yeah that's something that we
see a lot now in in my you know profession the
police and the fire and ems where a few years
ago if you said you were struggling you know
with the ptsd or you know whatever was going
on your addiction um you know no one would no
one would reach out and we're getting all these
suicides and all these horrible things happening
because they would look at everyone else and
think everyone else is doing fine i'm the weak
one So I'm just going to stop being a burden
and end it. And now, finally, people are realizing,
no, that's bullshit. It's a facade. Everyone's
hurting in some way, shape, or form. Can I just
say something, right, James? Because I was quite
angry. I had an interview with some national
TV reporter. She was saying, how come you're
in prison? Why did you do what you did? you've
got an international best -selling book and there's
a movie about your life. Why are you here? What
went wrong? I don't understand. And I'm like,
do you know anything about addiction? Have you
ever looked in the dictionary and looked at the
definition of what addiction is? You know, when
you're driven by something, and it's easy for
people to go, yeah, you know, who haven't had
that experience and go, nah, he had a choice.
Well, your choice is taken away when you've got
something inside you that just won't stop. It's
like the four horsemen are just taking you to
the very depths of hell. I'm trying to explain
to this person who's quite close -minded, and
it was angering me because I thought... Do you
think I woke up one morning as one of a career
and committing crime and taking drugs and spending
the rest of my life in prison? Do you think I've
got this fantasy about a great life? I just couldn't
get the fact that she couldn't understand it,
probably because she hasn't experienced it. So
that's where there's no justifying, there's no
blame, there's no rationalising, there's no miminising.
Anything other than the fact that addiction kind
of takes everything away. It robs everything.
It robs your sanity. It robs your models, your
principles, your model compass. Everything goes.
And it's sad. You're talking to a guy now that
hasn't used for quite some time. And I wouldn't
be doing the things that I've did or that I've
done in the past. Are you with me? Yeah. And
quite like, you know, I've got sound and clear
minds and, you know, I don't blame myself for
what my addiction did. I take responsibility
for my recovery today. Okay, so I kind of like
look at it, okay, so what harm has it ever done
and how can I make amends? And that's what I
do. You know, I'm not going to beat myself up
for years and, you know, carry a cross. I nail
myself to it every time someone says anything.
I've had enough of that. This is what sends people
back out there and what people struggle with,
the mental health and all that. It's like, look,
let's encourage people. Let's build up the character.
Let's work with them. Let's show them that there's
a way out. And that's what I'm about to do, to
be fair. Well, then that's exactly it. I get
sick of them. I see that in... some of the calls
i run and some of the people i work with occasionally
there's normally some very very good people but
you know looking down there knows that someone
if they're an addict if they're a prostitute
if they're if they're homeless so you know whatever
uh but you know element that we think is beneath
us instead of going well and i always say this
we all grew up like if if you and me and you
know a prostitute and whoever else we're all
in a daycare we'd just be laughing and chasing
a ball. Like you said, none of us said, oh, well,
one day I'm going to live under a bridge or I'm
going to sell my body, you know, whatever it
is. That's the path that life took you. And yet,
of course, you have decisions and, you know,
you can make them, especially, you know, hopefully
when you have that realization and you look back.
But I was fortunate enough to grow up in Bath,
just outside Bristol on a farm. And my dad was
a vet and both my parents were there and I had
no challenges. So my thing is, because I've had
the path that I've led, then it's my duty to
reach my hand and help everyone else try and
come up that wasn't gifted that idyllic childhood.
So if you didn't go down that rocky road, now
you're looking down your nose at people because
they're an addict or anything else that you think
is beneath you, then you need to check yourself
and realize that you were blessed and you're
on this earth to help the people that weren't
find their way back and then they in turn can
help other people. Yeah, definitely. I like the
way you put that, yeah. Yeah, that's how I feel.
That's a great way to kind of put it across because
it's having empathy and understanding. Because,
yeah, some people will judge you. And you know
what? For those that want to judge me, there's
a queue. I'm in the front of it, so you can get
to the back. I'm not really that forced on that,
to be fair. And I'm not here to judge anyone
else because I've got no right to. And judging
doesn't do anything anyway. Nothing gained from
judging, you know what I mean? All right, well,
I want to take us back to Thailand. So when you
came out of Bristol, you were clean, you were
doing really well, you were going to do the backpack
trip in Thailand. So what did that initial time
in Thailand look like? I know you worked on the
movie set. And then if you wouldn't mind just
kind of walking us through how that took a turn
again. Okay, initially I got to Thailand and
I was like a world -class card -carrying pleasure
seeker. I felt like I'd been reborn, I was clean,
I was in recovery and it was a new world and
I was like a child again. I was excited at the
opportunity to go travelling with a friend. I
wanted to relive my old dreams of boxing and
join this boxing camp in Thailand. You know,
got in the ring and started competing in multi
-competitions, which he enjoyed. Got the chance
to work with Sylvester Stallone on the last Rambo
movie. And he's a great guy, you know. It's like
he's a very, very intelligent man. He was my
hero growing up there. He used to love Rocky
and I was just over the moon to actually get
the chance to work with him. And that was panning
out and I got a job teaching English. So things
seemed to be, you know, on the outside were going
really, really well. Boxing, acting, travelling,
you know, living the dream. And underneath it
all, I just couldn't cope with relationships.
It was, you know, I was quite immature emotionally.
And I remember meeting someone and she was a
beautiful kind of side girl. And the conversation
was just a dictionary between us. And I couldn't
understand a word she said. And I found out that
she, somehow that she had another boyfriend.
Another boyfriend. You know what I mean? And
I got quite hurt by it really. And she was like,
you know, why are you sad? And I thought, well,
in England, it's me and you and that's how it
is. It's not me, you and your geek. You know
what I mean? So -called. And, you know, I couldn't
deal with stuff. You know, the pain and the heartache
was really too much for me to take. I didn't
even know this girl. I can't even blame her,
to be honest. It was just at that time I was
attached to these feelings. You could put me
in the ring and I could box and I could take
punches all day and kicks and bruises and cuts
and you could put plasters and bandages all over
that. But on the internal stuff, it was like
I couldn't deal with it. It was like, wow. So
I found myself in the ring trying to escape the
pain a lot. Fighting. every night and then when
I was outside that ring it was real life and
it was life on life terms and then I felt the
pain of it all you know until eventually I picked
up a drink because it was that painful you know
and I remember screaming inside this isn't the
answer you know what's gonna happen you know
and it was like that battle within and then I
just thought fuck it man I'm just going to drink
it. I did. I hope you don't mind me emphasising
a few swear words here. No, this is explicit
show. You're fine. Okay, so I can be myself.
Yes. Yeah, I was thinking, fuck this, man. I'm
just going to go for it and see if I can do it
differently. That drink just led me to going
to Bama. buying China White, scoring Yabba tablets,
which is methamphetamine and the crystal meth
and taking drugs that I'd never even took before,
taking addiction to another level in a foreign
country. You know, and I was involved in dealing
low -level kind of bits of tablets to friends
that I'd met over in Thailand to support me Yabba
and finance it. You know, and it's... There's
an ultimate consequence when you do that type
of stuff, you know, in those type of places.
I got arrested, and then that was taking my life
to another kind of level on its own. Full prison
in the UK was terrible, but then, you know, I
got incarcerated in Thailand. The irony was you
weren't caught for the dealing, were you? It
was actually something else? It was just a mobile
phone I was arrested for. It was a handle on
a stolen mobile phone, if you can believe that.
When he came into my room, there was all kinds
of weapons and drugs. I secreted them quickly.
No drugs were found. All the weapons were confiscated.
I wasn't even charged with any. One of them was
a gun as well. I was quite confused because I
thought, that's what they'll charge me with.
And I didn't realise that, you know, I think
the maximum penalty for carrying a firearm over
there was nine months on everyone. And his dog
had a gun. Anyway, it wasn't like over here.
You know, and the phones, he had a load of phone,
mobile phones, because it was changing me SIM
cards and I was paranoid and I was buying them
off drug dealers and I was buying them off, you
know, drug addicts who were scoring off me. And
that's what happened. One of these phones had
been... classed as stolen by someone so they
would handle a stolen property and they gave
me three years for that can you believe it huh
now if you've been found with the drugs I know
Thailand's got a pretty low tolerance for for
you know drug smuggling would that have been
even worse a sentence oh yeah oh my god I'm just
grateful that I didn't get arrested with drugs
on me because I would have ended up with at least
a 20 year sentence so then let's let's talk about
that so you actually i want to go back just for
a second so just to highlight that too you you've
been doing so well being clean but it's it's
interesting because you see i've heard you know
people that i've had on here before one of my
good friends uh chad who alcohol was his main
main thing and he was a fireman so when he became
a fireman he was clean and he threw himself into
his job and he was doing you know just just the
ultimate fireman stuff of the special ops and
all these all these different areas where he
could keep himself busy but it was the same kind
of thing like there came a point where all that
healthy stuff wasn't filling the void and that
addiction crept back and it seems like you know
what you're saying going not just from a drink
to to uh going on a complete bender again how
that was the same thing like it just crept in
and flew open the door of pandora's box I go
straight back to my drug of choice. I don't find
myself standing in public houses or boozes and
just having a drink and going home at the end
of the night. I'm hitting the ground hard. I
don't know why. There's something within me that
just says, look, let's go and destroy yourself.
Let's go and self -destruct. Let's create as
much harm as humanly possible to yourself and
others. i think oh my god this is a monster that
kind of like arrived from within it's just want
to just fuck up everything that is good in my
life it's just yeah and it's just you know grateful
that i'm not you know in that world anymore yeah
absolutely So let's talk about the Thai world
then. I mean, you know, I just, I read the book
a while ago now, you know, before we were talking
and then saw the movie, which we'll talk about
in a little bit, which I think it does a very
good, you know, immersion for the viewer on a
snapshot of what you went through. But what was
that first night? I mean, I know you write about
that in the book, the very first time when you
were taken into the Thai jail. Just tell me about
that experience. I remember getting on a bus,
it was just absolutely rammed, full of inmates
with shackles on and they all wore brown canvas
suits. Because I was initially arrested, I didn't
have to wear that stuff to get transported. But
as time went on, I had to go to and fro court.
I was experiencing the same kind of outfit today.
I walked in and I was just wrapped up in fear.
I was trying to act tough, but I was scared at
the same time. The language barrier was difficult,
so I couldn't communicate. I remember going for
it. You know, they asked us to get a shower in
this trough. You know, there was about 100 of
us that had came through the gates that night.
And it was a thick film of, like, dirt on the
water, and it was cold. You know, and we were
all washing together, no soap, just throwing
water over us, the slip shades. You know, and
then sat down in groups of four to eat this bowl
of sticky rice with a bowl of kind of, you know,
I couldn't even describe what it was and it was
stinking and I just couldn't stomach it. I was
like going into the compound and he put us into
a cell and I just thought, what's going on here?
It looked like a mass grave. There was arms and
legs on the floor everywhere. you know, just
stunk to high heaven of feces and, you know,
let's say what it is, it's stunk as shit, you
know what I mean? You know, in your eye and I'm
vomiting, you know, there was abscesses on people's
legs with bloodstained bandages wrapped around
them and virtually no space and it was absolutely
hot, you know, you can picture this. And I walked
in and I just thought, fuck, I'm not going to
eat it, what's going on? You know what I mean?
I got put in this little, part of the shell next
to a lady boy called Tiffany, you remember? You
know, because she spoke to me immediately, you
know, and then seduced herself and pointed at
the guy next to me and said, he's dead. You know,
and I thought, oh, why won't he move him? He
said, well, you can't because it's a holiday.
And I thought, fucking hell, I was just so sad
there, you know what I mean? And I just lay there
all night, just wide awake, just looking at the
ceiling. Looking around the shell, just watching
this mass of bodies kind of like moving up and
down as they slept. That was my first night.
And how long was it until they took that poor
guy that passed away away from there? Two days.
Oh my God. Two days because it was a tie holiday.
That's insane. So then did you, you know, those
first few weeks, were you able to find, you know,
a group like you would in maybe in other prisons?
No, no. I was on my own for a long time in the
beginning. Like you said earlier on, I was like
a rebel that had a cause, you know, couldn't
mix with foreigners. There was a few Australians
and Iranian and, you know, an Indian. and a few
other guys, but they were just definitely different
from me. They weren't my cup of tea, to be honest.
I just couldn't relate with them. You said some
of them were kiddie fiddlers, is that right?
Yeah. I wouldn't be able to relate to them either.
Yeah, there was definitely... The ties, you knew
what most of them were in for. It was either
drugs... or robbery or something like that, you
know what I mean? The foreigners, there was a
few, you know, there was a few that were in for
like fraud and stuff like, like that and drugs,
you know, and bits and bobs and then you got
the odd, well, quite a few that were doing a
lot of other things, you know what I mean, which
went, quite, went off, you know, I just wanted
to rip someone's windpipe out one day and just
think, you know what, you fucking need to die,
you know what I mean, for what you've done. And
I don't know why, it's just, if it was over here
in the UK, they'd lock you up and separate you
from everyone else. But over there, it was just,
no one gave a shit. Absolutely gave two fucks
what they did. That was wrong. Yeah, it's strange
how it's, you know, how there's that difference
in culture. Because I know, you know, being British
myself, you know, we hear about a lot of these
Brits that would go over there for that reason,
you know, to go to Thailand just so they can
do that with kids that they know they would get.
you know, hung up to do if they tried it in England?
Yeah, loads of sex tourists, you know, it was,
and I met one guy, you know, his name's Jack
and he's in my story and, you know, he's gay
and I've got nothing against anyone who's, anyone's
gender or anyone's kind of sexuality. It was
just the fact that he was picking up vulnerable,
like, Bermies, village boys and stuff like that.
So, you know, And he was the only English guy
there. You know, and Nick named him Prozac Jack
because all he ever done was say Prozac and he
was just totally depressed with it all and, you
know, played the victim and, you know, and the
kid was lying and stuff like that. But, you know,
the truth came out in the end. So, yeah, there
was another guy from Australia who was in for
writing a two -year -old girl and I had to share
it. I shared with him the thoughts that were
going through my mind about what I wanted to
do to him. I should be locked up for murder,
to be honest. The thoughts, that's exactly what
they were. Murderous. I just couldn't do nothing.
It wasn't for me to do anything, to be honest.
It wasn't my place. I'm not judging Jodie. you
know, I'm not going to put myself on the line
for someone else. But I'm trying to paint a picture
of how I felt. There were feelings, there were
actions, if that makes sense. No, it does. Like
you said, you're the protector, so there you
are in a cell with someone who's abused children.
I mean, you know if you do something to them
that it's just going to... end up keeping you
in that prison longer. If I even had attacked
them or been verbally abusive to them, I'd have
been put in what they call a punishment block.
I'd experienced that in the first prison I'd
been to in Chiang Mai and I didn't like it. I
felt like I wanted to end my life when I was
in there. I learned pretty quick not to repeat
the same mistakes there because, you know, it
was very, very unhealthy. So, yeah, they knew
that and I knew that and so they just became
ghosts to me, to be honest. That's how I kind
of see to people. So that's why I spent a lot
of time on my own and, you know, drugs came back
into play again. They became my friends and my
only companions for a while. Yeah, now, You talk
about this in the book as well. Obviously, you
weren't walking in with a wallet full of cash.
So what were the challenges trying to feed your
addiction in there? I had to beg, borrow and
steal. I had missionaries coming up. They'd buy
you food and the food that they bought me, I'd
sell. The British Embassy was supplying us with
vitamin tablets and protein tablets. I'd sell
them. Prisoners abroad would send 2 ,000 bars
every month and I'd spend that. on drugs you
know i'll get medication and swapped the medication
for drugs they had none you know and that's how
i kind of got by you know and then i i i couldn't
afford to pay some of the debts and it ends up
fighting them you know and it just became that
way of life what i mean yeah i mean that that's
such a great kind of example or illustration
though of what addiction is like that you're
getting this stuff sent to you For example, you
know, the food. I mean, the food's awful and
you get the opportunity to buy something better
or, you know, cigarettes or whatever it is. And
all that you're just turning back so you can
get Yabba or, you know, whatever you were getting
your hands on. If that doesn't illustrate how
powerful addiction is, I don't know what does.
Yeah, that's where I'm trying to come from before.
You know, it's got such a power over you that,
like, you would shell your soul. for just one
more. Yeah. Well, let's talk about the upturn
then. So how did you find Muay Thai in prison
itself? There was a boxing camp in the prison.
People were training. I was, because of the fights
I was getting involved in, just in the normal
population, and a guard came over and said, look,
Bill, you're like the Oscar de la Hoya in this
prison. You're going to end up getting... killed
the way you're going on you know it's like it's
not one -on -one there's a few attacking yet
and you just keep coming back the next day and
doing it again and you know just seeing you really
like this show he encouraged me to join his boxing
team we were quite unreasonable like they were
kind of like you ain't like allowing me to get
in that's a bride with cigarettes In the end,
they gave me the chance to come and train with
them. And they just let me be. And they seemed
that I had a few skills and that they could kind
of exploit that opportunity to bet against other
Thai boxers with me involved and make a little
bit of money. And that's how it began, really.
And then I became friends. And, you know, that
journey of, like, unity and collectively as a
group, the boxing team and myself as one. Yeah,
it's interesting again how when you were young,
boxing was your outlet. And now here you are
a lot older, but back in that place where you
can focus your energy and your aggression and
then build that tribe around you, that camaraderie
of the other fighters. From the outside looking
in, it seems like it was a good healing outlet
for you that offset some of the... the need to
fill the void with the drugs. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
So then what about the fights? I mean, how successful
were you against the Muay Thai fighters? Pretty
damn good, I think. Yeah. I'm not stroking my
own egos, man. I'd elevate myself with that one.
I remember getting in the ring and, you know,
I could take physical pain all day. You know,
and... I knew they couldn't box like I boxed.
They were great at kicking and that, and I learned
how to defend myself pretty quick. So I was up
against it, you know. They put me in with a few
tough customers, but I stood my ground. I won
a few and I lost a few. I never won them all.
And I don't claim to be someone who's, you know,
a champion. I'm not a boxer or anything. But,
you know, I've got heart. I knew I had that.
And I wouldn't give up. yeah thought this is
it come on this is this is my this is my tear
for you it's getting the ring i'll show you a
few moves yeah because the muay thai i mean i
love muay thai i've trained myself for for you
know several years and uh not as a fighter let
me be very clear on i'm not the punch bag that
the fighters beat up and when they're training
for a fight but um I can see how if you come
from Thailand, how if you're a British boxer
coming in, that your hand skills would be hard
for a traditional Muay Thai fighter to deal with.
Yeah. That's what they were up against. They
were up against my fast left jabs, slip and sliding,
ducking and diving, bobbing and weaving, and
right crosses. I was up against elbows, knees,
and bear hooks. Yeah, because normally when you're
clinching in a boxing match, you're separated
by the referee, not so much in Muay Thai. No,
they were throwing knees in, so I learned to
kind of keep a distance, but, you know, pretty
heavy duty kicks to the back of the legs and,
you know, the neck and elbows, the top of my
eyes and the bridge of my nose, so it took a
few clouts, like. Right, so then you, in the
book, you talk about the... The accident that
you had before you went to prison and then how
that manifested itself once you were in there,
I think that's a kind of interesting story to
touch on as well. So the surgery that you had
to have done. Yeah, I'd come off a motorbike
when I was in Laos. I went from driving on one
side of the road to going into another country
and not realising that they drove on the other
side. I was hit by two taxis. like tuk -tuk taxis
that smashed the bike in half. Basically, that
went on the air and the brake lever went through
my stomach and the chassis landed on my chest,
crushing my ribs, puncturing my lung. You know,
it caused me a lot of internal kind of problems
within my stomach area. I got stitched up in
a hospital in Laos and then sent back to Chiang
Mai, Thailand. I spent three months in hospital
before I went. It's the prison I was in. I was
in hospital. So I had surgery twice while I was
in a prison in Thailand. And that was affecting
me getting in the ring again. I refused to give
up. They were asking me, look, it's not going
to really... be guffier to do this anymore. And
I thought, nah, if I'm going to die, I'm going
to die fighting in that sense. I'm not going
to lie down and just take it. When you were in
one of the hospitals, you actually made it out
of the hospital and you had the opportunity to
escape. I'm really intrigued about this. What
made you turn around and go back? I remember
getting I think it was 1 ,000 bars of Catherine,
the missionary. And he had these chains on me,
these elephant chains. And he put these bandages
around them, you know, because they were rattling
a lot. And he didn't want to upset the rest of
the patients. And then there's a rong around
me, so it was covering, like, it was hiding it.
And this guy, he's lazy, fucking honest to God.
He just didn't, like, hang around all day long
and just keep his eye on me. He used to say,
I'll be back. or his break or whatever and put
a gun to his head and said if you run I'll shoot
you or whatever to that and I remember like with
this thousand bars and I wanted a cigarette and
I had no money I had no cigarettes and I had
this money and I found the exit went down the
exit just the first time and opened the bottom
door and outside was all people on grass having
like a picnic eating food no visitors to the
families there you know what I mean in the hospital
grounds. Got myself a cigarette and I walked
over to the 7 -Eleven and bought a bottle of
brandy and 20 cigarettes, and then went next
door and bought 500 Tramadol tablets. When I
came back, I was scared, like I was actually
kind of fearful and I was like, oh, this is,
I'm outside and I'm actually in the street. You
know, and then I made it back to the hospital,
back up to the fire exit stairs, back into bed.
And my confidence grew over the days because
I used to go down the back of the stairs every
single night for a cigarette at the time. And
then one night when the tablets ran out, I made
this crazy kind of decision to make a run for
it. And I left my bed at about 1am. And by 3am,
I was walking around in the streets thinking
to myself, where the fuck are you going to go
here? You've got shackles on your ankles. You
can't steal a motorbike. You can't steal a car.
Where are you going to go anyway? All these keep
playing around in my mind. You can't get the
embassy. They'll just send you back. If you get
caught, you'll probably get shot. If you go and
approach any type of nationals, they'll probably
blow you up and grass you up and get you put.
You know what I mean? so i had all this ticket
sandwich and eventually just found myself walking
back just deflated thinking it's only three years
that's amazing amazing so let's talk about how
you finally got out then because you know that
that in itself is is uh a pretty incredible story
so you're you're going through hell i mean you
you know you're now obviously fighting muay thai
you still got the You know, the violence and
the death and the shitty food and the overcrowding
and all these other things. So what was the turning
point where you realised, OK, I am actually going
to get to go home at some point? I think as the
sentence was coming to an end, I never had, like,
a release date. You know, and I heard about that
there was a repatriation possible and I asked
the embassy to support that and, you know, they
pulled. a form or whatever he had to do he came
back about three or four months later said look
okay we'll repack you back to the uk and that
was um it was like a wow moment had been in thailand
for five years by this time you know it builds
up a relationship with these people these thai
friends that i have and they all came to the
gate you know to see me off and it was quite
sad it was a moment And I felt for the first
time that I was leaving something behind and
that I was leaving friends that I'd made whilst
I was there. And it did take a long time because
it changed by this stage. I was off drugs and
I was involved in a lot of the religious stuff
at the time that helped. So yeah, that's where
I felt really about it. see that's just so it's
so crazy that i guess that shows you how how
everything that we deal with in life is is between
our two ears because externally you know what
you went through in that prison and what your
fellow prisoners were going through as well was
compared to you know life on most of the world
pretty awful but that friendship that you ended
up discovering you know over overcame all the
other stuff it did yeah And what about the addiction?
What was it that really got you off the drugs
in prison? I think it was just the fact that
I ran out of money. I ran out of choices. I ran
out of friends. My life was being threatened
on a daily basis. I was subjected to threats
of... I was death by, you know, HIV -infected
syringes, rape. It was on my cards, if I didn't
pay bills, apparently. And the fact that, like,
I was so fucking lonely and it all, that I just
couldn't cope. And I just... ..kind of made this
decision to stop and, you know, these Muslim
guys helped me. Quite weird really. They invited
me to eat some lunch with them and then we spoke
about unity and support and collectively as a
group, you know, they take care of me and not
in a way that it was like they were kind of like
jihad so they wanted me to be involved in some
kind of extreme. a Muslim kind of far -right
group, you know what I mean? He just wanted to
show me a way of living, like without using.
He said, if you join our religion, that's what
he said, you know, there's a few rules. You can't
have sex with men. That's okay. That's going
to be a tough one. All right. He said, you can't
take drugs. And I like the idea of not taking
drugs. So that's who I mean. And we'll feed you.
So, you know, they knew that I wasn't. I'm Muslim.
And he knew I was black and white, but he didn't
kind of turn me away. That's so good to hear,
because I'm sure you have the same in England.
But, you know, we hear so much negativity about
Islam. And that's just those, you know, that
minute percentage of shitbags that are doing
horrible things in the name of Islam. Yeah, definitely.
But what you're talking about is the good people
in that faith. Yeah. See, what I got to say to
believe that... They were doing, you know, my
managers, all what I'd read in the papers and
what had been told from second -hand, you know,
conversations and all. And I sat there one day
and said, I'm going to ask you a few questions
because I'm not really too fussy with your fame,
you know what I mean? I said, what's up with
all these backpacks? And that's how naive I was,
you know what I mean? I thought everyone who's
got a backpack is going to blow everything up.
And he went to say, look, Bill, just hazard laughing.
I said, look, you know. Islam means peace, he
said. And there's people that are out there that
kind of like, yeah, that don't want peace. A
jihad means, you know, to fight within, not to
fight other people. You know, a salamu alaykum
means, you know, has two meanings. It means peace
be with you and also I'm not going to harm you,
my friend. And I kind of like the way they kind
of spoke about it, you know what I mean? And
I watched them for a long time before. I sat
with them and I'd seen the integrity that they
had and I'd seen the way they behaved. It was
quite nice and it was quite serene. I wanted
a bit of normality, so I think I gravitated towards
that, where everyone else was doing their own
thing. It was nice to have that way of life for
a short, short time, a short period of being
in there before I got released. Yeah, and what
were those guys in prison for themselves? Murder,
drugs, drug dealing, things like that, you know
what I mean? And had they discovered Islam after
that, or were they always Muslim and they just
found their way down a bad path as well? They
were just bad Muslims. Right. That's what they
used to say. We don't even go to Juma on a Friday,
but we're just a bit of a bad Muslim at the minute.
So, you know, we made mistakes. You know, they
were just honest. They were open. But that's
good. Like you were saying, we all make mistakes
and you can't dwell on the past. And you see
that a lot in America for some reason where a
lot of prisoners come from wherever and they
find a faith, whether it's Christianity, Islam,
whatever it is. And that's the ones you see that
many times become mentors and become good people
and then leave prison and start mentoring the
gang kids and trying to get them to change their
ways. And it all boils down to me like, Again,
you're either a good person or a bad person.
And whatever you can use to make yourself good
and spread that kindness is good. It doesn't
matter what it's called. Yeah, man. I agree.
All right. Well, then let's talk about the transition.
So you were in this great group. You found your
spirituality. You had this group of people. You
were clean. What was that transition back from
Thailand back to England again? It was a culture
shock. It was very, very difficult. I'd learnt
a new language and I'd adopted a new culture
and then I was thrown back into the UK penal
system and it was, you know, it was frightening.
You know, I felt really vulnerable and there
was definitely no support or no help when I got
back. I got released from Wandsworth Prison in
London with a bag. with a few belongings in it
and a travel warrant. And I stood rooted to the
spot outside the prison gates going, they didn't
even tell me it was getting released. They just
opened the door and went, you know, this is it,
you're out. And I was just like, what the fuck's
going on here? Am I going to go? I don't even
know anyone. I felt so embarrassed to go home
and speak to my mum and my family because...
of my journey had been, you know what I mean?
Yeah, and that's what strikes me as, you know,
something that we could do better. And again,
I'm not saying that we don't need, you know,
incarceration and punishment and all that stuff,
because obviously we do, but there's a gentleman
I had on the show from Norway who's a governor
from a prison out there. And what they do in
this particular one is when you're in prison,
You live in a town. It's on an island off Oslo,
but it's called Bastoy. And you live with other
prisoners and you cook and you clean and you
have a job that you go to every day and you can
learn trades. So by the time you come out, not
only have you kind of fostered that community
again, but you also are set up to go get work.
And so the chance of reoffending over there is
really, really, really small. The way we do it,
and this isn't... this isn't you know again being
judgy but it's like we've done this for a long
long time and it doesn't seem to be working but
to lock people up and then just like you said
open the door you're free now the chance of that
person going back into crime into prostitution
into addiction whatever it was that got him in
there in the first place is obviously going to
be a lot higher if we haven't done anything inside
to try and change that behavior yeah yeah well
I think over the years, there's a small percentage
of people that want to get help. Some people
just don't care. I've recently experienced that.
Like I said, you've got to be willing to change.
Let me ask you a question then, because you've
got the two side -by -side. What are the things
that the British prisons could learn about the
Thai prison, if anything, and then vice versa?
Absolutely fuck all. That's a good answer. Seriously,
absolutely nothing. As for Thai prisons, sometimes
being in a prison in the UK, I think it would
be better off in a Thai prison the way it was,
you know what I mean? In a sense, Thai prisons
are all green and there's a lot of people and
there's a lot of fucking violence at the same
time, but you know where you are. you know and
then you go to a UK prison which is like a concrete
jungle where people are smoking spice and cutting
each other up and you know there's gang culture
and suicide rates are high and there's a lot
of mental health you know it's all drug induced
there's a lot of bang up and lockdown and violence
upon screws you know they take it looking soft
beaten as well they're subjected to a lot the
workforce is quite quite small so you've got
to understand that there's a lot of what I believe
that the UK prison can learn is putting more
money into kind of spending a lot more time on
individuals you know what I mean Because I think
what you're doing there is all this shit. You
just want to pay the bills at the end of the
month. You know, it doesn't matter to you whether
people get out and stay out because if they did,
then you wouldn't be in a job. So the more the
merrier for them, you know what I mean, in a
sense. Yeah, and especially here because a lot
of our prisons are privately run too. So they're
making a profit out of them, which is, I don't
think, a very healthy... way of doing that particular
system nah it's just damn I've done I've kind
of like I think people are just nah it's just
it's more like you know just lip service it sounds
great we're doing this and we're doing that ah
you fuck you're doing fuck all the people in
there you know what I mean it angers me really
because I know You know, there's no meetings
in there. And there's no strong recovery. There's
no way... Everything's got to go through details
and, you know, security checks and gang culture.
Fucking hell, there's people who just want to
get their shit together and stop using drugs.
There's many in there. You know what I mean?
But you're just feeding them methadone and you're
feeding them kind of anti -psychotics and sleepers
just to keep them quiet. Well, it's just a bit.
There's an injustice within the justice service.
Yeah, I think what I see, again, I'm not in this
realm at all. I'm a fireman, I'm a medic, and
I'm in America now, so I'm not even back home.
But what I see from the outside looking in is
we don't fix this by locking everyone away. We
don't fix this by arresting everyone. Let's take
weed, for example. And we realize now some incredibly
powerful medicinal effects. Now, dealing and
all that stuff, that's a separate thing. But
prostitution is another one. I mean, I personally
have removed dead prostitutes or seen them in
hotel rooms or dumpsters or whatever because
these poor women are having to be in the shadows
to do what they do. And to me... We can fix these
areas, whether it's the Portuguese drug system
or legalizing certain things, marijuana, prostitution,
that are way better than alcohol, which you and
I can go down the office right now and buy as
much as we want. And then you fix it from there
and you fix families so they don't create addicts
and thugs and all these other things. But just
locking people that have screwed up away. does
not seem to work in america in england and all
the other places in around the world that use
that system it just doesn't work it just it it
keeps it look some people need locking away that's
to be all and end all of it because they're quite
dangerous you know in society you know and there's
some people that are locked up because like They
can't cope with life and there's some people
locked up because they're in addiction. There's
a diverse bunch of people within the establishment
in and around the world. There's a lot of innocent
people as well. People set up. There's people
that are just stupid and get nicked on conspiracies
and do things that talk themselves into sentences.
So there's a lot of reasons why people are locked
up and there's a lot of reasons why. It was a
way for a majority of them as well. So yeah,
just to underline something, in that Norwegian
prison model, they have people that they lock
away. Like you said, the real sociopaths, they
are locked away in a prison just like the ones
that are around the world. But like you said,
it's the addicts and the other people that are
not waking up every day saying, I'm going to
go on a summer camp and murder a bunch of kids.
you know, trying to feed their addiction or whatever
it is. That's completely wrong as well, but there
are other ways of changing that. And I think
that what we also miss is in my profession, we
lose police officers every single day. I know
London's had a bunch of them just stabbed recently.
You know, prison guards, like you said, not only
getting killed, but the suicide rates amongst
them. So by fixing the system... The goal is
to make it safer not only for society, but also
my peers as well, the men and women on the streets
that are risking their lives trying to combat
crime, so that now they can focus on the people
that truly are dangerous to our society instead
of the addicts and the johns and all these other
people that are getting arrested and kind of
diluting our prison system and our police force
as well. Just a resource, Andy, just a... Like,
it's about kind of like alleviating the emergency
service because people are getting calls up for
overdoses, this, that and the other. It's, you
know, the emergency services are there for emergencies
now. For fucking people who pick up to those
who are on an overdose, you know what I mean?
Yeah. Yeah, and again, it boils down to, like
we were saying before, the goal is for those
toddlers to grow up and be happy. You know what
I mean? And letting them grow up and be all disturbed
and then trying to fix the problem is not the
most effective way of doing it. But if we can
address the addiction in the entire country at
the ground level, that and then is going to affect
the crime rate. Because as you were saying, the
reason why a lot of people are doing these things,
even the gangs, it all boils down to money ultimately,
you know, slinging dope and whatever else they're
doing. The reality is, James, you're never going.
you're never gonna be in a position to kind of
like help everyone in addiction even if you have
the chance because like i said it's it's people
can be tough customers you know what i mean yeah
yeah no i do but i think that we can definitely
improve the way we do it and reduce the amount
of people you're always going to have you know
that that group but um you know if if addicts
like you said if addicts have a route to find
help that's extremely easy versus a direct route
to prison because they got caught with whatever
on their possession, then I think that would
be a great first step. There's the opportunity
for people to reduce addiction in the community.
There's an opportunity for that. It's just having
enough resources to show people that it does
work and that there is a way out. And that's
what I feel. You know, it's important that I've
got an opportunity and I believe I'm here for
a reason to share my experience with others and
go, look, do you know what? I've been through
some fucking shit in my life. I mean, I've had
cancer and meningitis, years in addiction, years
in foreign prisons, years in prisons in the UK.
And do you know what? I'm standing tall today
and I don't use drugs. I don't want to use drugs.
I don't have a desire to use any. I don't want
to harm anyone. I just want to be of service
to society. And I believe every addict feels
ashamed. Yeah, no, exactly. Well, let's talk
about giving back. So one of the things you did
was write the book and tell your story. So where
were you when you wrote the book and then how
did that become the film that we saw recently?
I was in Thailand in prison initially and I was
doing a channel and I was writing bits and bobs
down and then I went to Wandsworth and I got
the chance to write in there. And then... you
know, I got released and I finished it and then
I sent it, submitted it to publishers. So I was
on a different kind of, I was in like Thailand
prisons, UK prisons, release, publish. Brilliant.
And how long from publishing it were you approached
to make it into a film? Brilliant, because just
for everyone listening, if they haven't, so the
book is A Prayer Before Dawn, the movie's the
same title, but the book really... kind of leads
you down a good significant chunk of your life,
certainly the Thai side. I actually ended up
getting the audiobook, so it was quite amusing.
The guy that read that, his Thai voice was pretty
cool to hear. But then the movie, they chose
to just focus on the actual incarceration, which
I think is great because some movies, you know,
you read the book, you see the movie, sometimes
it's not as good or it tells exactly the same
story. Like, well, that was basically the book.
But this kind of gives you, you know, a snapshot
of from the day you came in through what we've
talked about till, you know, when they fictionally
had your dad, aka you, show up at the very end.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. All right. Well, then
let's talk about one more thing before we do
some wrap up questions to close up. You are now
or you have written a second book. So do you
have a title for that yet? yeah it's called surrender
from the heart and it's a follow -up from a prayer
before zone and it kind of talks about the journey
you know after me after being released and you
know what happened in between and it's quite
a sad story it reflects as well on me past a
little bit more in detail it talks about the
The fall from grace, standing on a red carpet,
to being in a cat tent a couple of days later
in Liverpool. You know what I mean? What happened?
So the movie was out, you were doing the promo,
and then you found yourself back in addiction
again? Yeah. I found myself diagnosed with cancer
going through chemotherapy. You know, I found
myself in a criminal fraternity again and doing
things again that I didn't want to do. Just wondering
what was going on with my life. I thought I was
going to die. I just didn't care, you know, whether
I did at the time. You know, I'm kind of really
blessed and grateful, you know, that someone
up there has been looking down on me and going,
this guy has been through some fucking shit.
Let's pull him out of it. Let's guide them and
give them a bit of hope here and a chance to
kind of, you know, have the opportunity to change
other people's lives. You know what I mean? And
that's what I want to do. I get messages from
people that say, you know what, Bill, you're
an inspiration and it's amazing what you've been
through. And, you know, it's given me hope. And,
you know, after reading your book, you know,
I've got myself into a rehab. I read that last
night about some guy from the Philippines telling
me how he's got himself into a rehab. And I just
had to read my story and watching my movie. And
I'm thinking, wow. This just reaches far beyond
just me here in Liverpool. It kind of travels
worldwide and people, you know, are inspired
and get up. And sometimes I sit back and I sink
into the sofa and think, are these guys talking
about me? And I think I don't acknowledge myself
enough for it really, you know what I mean? I
think, yeah, it's been tough and that's how it's
been and, you know, go through it. But the reality
of it is... I fucking had to fight my way out
of it, you know what I mean? I've had to kind
of really surrender, totally. And that's where
the title came in for this new book, Surrender
From The Harm. Just throw the towel in. Stop
fighting. The reason for the title, because years
ago, some guy said to me, Billy, do you know
when we surrender from the heart, the war ends.
And I thought, wow. That was a statement and
a half. It was an impact. The war ends within.
So, yeah, I've finished writing it. I'm just
on the edit at the minute. I'm looking to submit
it for publication. And I'm quite happy with
the outcome of this story, to be fair. Did you
find it cathartic? Did you find it almost healing
when you wrote your story down as you got it
out of your brain and onto paper? Yeah, and every
time I write and put my thoughts and feelings
down on paper, I'm honest and open about how
I feel. It's quite authentic, and I believe that's
what shows the story. I'm not someone who's kind
of inventing. a kind of character that's some
some tough customer and he's an hard case and
he's bends and shell jaws and you know he can
take life and whatever it throws at him on the
chin it's not like that it's definitely not like
that I mean it's like whoa I've had a few feelings
here I feel a bit vulnerable I feel scared I
feel insecure I'm quite sensitive when people
say that I get paranoid I suffer with mental
health you know I've had you know lows and highs
and suffer the depression you know but you know
what I'm going to struggle with a smile at the
end of the day and that's how I get through it
yeah and one thing I've found from a lot of people
that I've had on here that have been through
some horrible stuff themselves you know a lot
of them have actually been right there ready
to take their own life and one of the the biggest
things the biggest common denominators i see
with a lot of them who are doing really well
now is just like you were saying realizing that
they can start helping other people whether they
came out of ptsd and now they're they're helping
other veterans or soldiers you know firefighters
whatever it is um or addicts that come through
and now they're helping with rehab programs that
giving back seems to be such a healing thing
for that individual as well yeah i didn't even
know what these names meant like ptsd i thought
that was something you bought in subway all these
like names adhd and ptsd and copd and all this
is attached to kind of like you know your mental
health don't i mean yeah and i've realized that
like just giving a bit back and giving someone
a little bit of open and trying to inspire and
ignite that hope within them. It's fucking rewarding,
man. Wow, you know, when someone goes, thanks,
Bill. That means it from the very depths of the
soul. You think, wow. Wow, that's just like...
I sometimes think, you know, that's worth more
than gold to see someone else come alive and
change. Because that one patient as an individual
can have an impact on a number of lives in society,
in the community, you know, worldwide. It's like
there's a ripple effect. My family, you know,
they've all recovered because I've recovered.
When I'm not in recovery and when I'm unwell,
everyone else is paying a price. And it's, you
know, it's... I spent time with my brother and
I spent time with my mum and I spent time with
close friends. That's something that we're only
here for a few short decades and then we're gone.
So let's utilise our time and for the greater
good be of service to others. Yeah, I couldn't
agree more. I really couldn't. I think that's
the thing that I love about the people that I
work with is fundamentally, that's what they're
trying to do too, whether they're, you know,
firefighters or police officers or, you know,
ER physicians, you know, people are trying to
just make the world better. And like you said,
if you've been through hell and you've come out
the other side, now it's time to tell your story
and be that arm that reaches out to the other
people that are struggling to help them through.
Yeah, definitely. All right. Well, I want to
transition to some closing questions. The first
one I always ask, We talked about your books.
Is there a book that you love to recommend to
other people? It can be about what we talked
about today or something completely different.
Is there a book? I've read one called Who Will...
What's it called? Was it Gregory? Sandra Gregory.
Yeah, Sandra Gregory. I kind of liked it. It
was a female version of being inside a prison
in Bangkok. I think it was Forget You Had a Daughter.
That's right. Forget You Had a Daughter by Sandra
Gregory. I kind of enjoyed reading that. That
was the last book I read. Brilliant. And it was
like a female kind of version of my story. Excellent.
What about a movie and or a documentary that
you love? A movie that I love. And I've always
kind of felt this was... One of my favourites
was True Romance. Great film. Gary Oldman as
the white Rastafarian? Yeah. That was brilliant,
that one. Yeah, it was. And then what about a
documentary? Have you seen any of those that
you love? Documentaries. I'm quite into aliens
and time travel, mate. And all that kind of movement.
So I don't really know of anyone kind of like,
you know, I like the unknown, mate. You know,
like, I like to think that there's something
beyond just this living room I'm sitting in at
the minute. So as for documentaries, Professor
Green is pretty good at what he does. Professor
Green. Perfect. All right. Then is there a person
that you would recommend to come on this podcast
to talk to the first responders and military
of the world as a guest? Yeah, me mum. No. Let
me think. Would you like me to name the people?
Yeah, I mean, if you've got someone on top. Yeah,
I mean, even your mum. You say no, but I mean.
the mother of someone who's gone through that
trauma would probably be an interesting perspective
in itself. Yeah, she'd be good at it. I kind
of like to joke about it because I know she's
a bit like, oh, I'm not doing that, I'm not doing
this. So we always throw it in the middle of
it all. She kicks me under the table and goes,
oh, I'm not doing that. But yeah, I know what,
I'll tell you, there's a guy called Tim Morris
who works in HMP Walton. He works on the radio
show in there and he's changing lives while he's
in there by giving people the opportunity to
get involved in that kind of industry and media
stuff, you know what I mean? And finding the
voice through radio. So yeah, I could speak to
him and ask him would he be interested. Yeah,
absolutely. So he's a prisoner but he's doing
that project to try and... No, no, he's a...
Prison staff member. Oh, excellent. Yeah. Yeah,
yeah, absolutely. I was just thinking, yeah,
you could do that, yeah, man. Perfect. Yeah.
All right, well, thank you. So then the last
one before we talk about where we can find the
book and the movie and people reach out to you,
what do you do now to decompress, to kind of
go to your happy place these days? I teach young
kids out of the box. And it's... The most wonderful
thing that I've ever done lately, which is seeing
someone else grow into a fella. Yeah. Do you
find it kind of weird that you're in that spot
that your boxing coach was when you were a kid?
Yeah. I do like it once in a while. you know
to give myself time to not only a young young
lads but you know there's there's there's females
and males that are interested in getting you
know short out of boxing out to learn a little
bit of music and a few skills that i've learned
over the years and you know i offer you know
my experience and teach them the best i can really
and give them the time that i was given as a
child what i mean i think it's like sort of giving
something back to to society as a whole as well,
you know what I mean? Yeah, it's one way I like
to kind of like write and relax and watch a few
programs on the telly and, you know, spend a
bit of time with my family which is a lot at
the minute. Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah, I had a guy
called Pat Russo who's a retired New York police
officer who started a kid's boxing program and
trying to get kids that are at risk off the streets
and focused in boxing. And they even offer them
prizes if they get certain grades at school.
And it's incredible. They've done so well. And
in that area where this gym is, again, the crime
came down, the relationship with the police officers
improved. So all it takes is members of the community
to go outside their door and think of a way they
can actually help their neighbors around them
and start fixing the country themselves. Yeah,
definitely, man. Brilliant. All right, so then
to finish, where can people find the books, the
movie, and how can they reach out to you if they
were wanting to talk? You can get me on Twitter
or Facebook or Instagram. There's the usual social
media sites. My email is also, you know, displays
on my Twitter account. The book you can get on
Amazon. You can get the movie on Sky On Demand,
iTunes, Google. You can contact Maverick House
Publishers who supply the book as well. That's
available on there. And it should be on Netflix
pretty soon. I spoke to the distributor and he
said, you know, Netflix will have a broader audience
in the UK. Yeah, well, it is right now. In America,
it's on Netflix at the moment. That's where I
watched it. Yeah, well, it's not only over here,
yeah, so you've got all the mincebags downloading
it and then asking me how much I'm making and
I'm thinking, well, I'm not making nothing if
you're downloading it for free. Well, like, I'm
guilty of doing that myself, so who am I to tell
this? You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm a selfish
in that area, I'm quite. It doesn't really matter.
As long as, you know, if you like it and you
enjoy it and it is what it is, then yeah, fair
enough. It is what it is. Yeah, well, like we
were talking before, hopefully, you know, the
new project, the Surrender from the Heart, you
know, you're going to have your hands on the
reins a little bit more and, you know, I hope
that that will be the next platform for you.
And like you said, now you're in this space where
you're wanting the help and I think that's going
to pay dividends in the currency greater than
money. Yeah, money's just material. Like I said
before, we're only here for a few short decades.
Let's make it worthwhile. Let's take care of
your mum and take care of your family and be
a good husband or a good boyfriend or be kind
to someone, just be nice. It ain't going to be
like that all the time because you're going to
have your own moments, but it's just about life.
believing that, you know, there's good around
you. Absolutely. Yeah. And you know what, James,
I really appreciate your time and, you know,
I apologise for the delay in, you know, this
interview because I've been wanting to do it
for quite some time and things have come up and
I haven't had the opportunity to do it. But you
know what, I'm really grateful. for your time
you know it's not just about me and you interviewing
me it's it's a pleasure to be interviewed by
you and i've quite enjoyed that and you know
i wish you well in in all that you do to be honest
well thank you so much i'm glad that we did delay
because i think you know finding you where you
are now is is a great place and now you can reflect
on you know where you were before so i think
this was the perfect time to do it so i just
thank you so much for taking the time to to talk
and um you know i hope we talk again soon one
day oh definitely thanks