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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you

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think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome

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to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,

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my name is James Gearing, and this week it is

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my absolute honor to welcome on the show veteran

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firefighter paramedic Mark Mycoskie. Now, what

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makes this interview extremely powerful is Mark

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and I have been friends for a few years, so this

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interview is a long time coming. We ended up

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doing an episode together. And he was still working

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through some things. So we actually waited till

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he went through the siren project and circled

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around again and redid the episode. And it is

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so much more powerful. So we discuss a host of

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topics from his journey into the fire service,

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firefighter fitness, CrossFit, yoga for first

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responders, his powerful mental health story,

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the shatterproof program. healing through plant

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medicine, and so much more. Now, before we get

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to this incredibly powerful and important conversation,

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as I say every week, please just take a moment.

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Go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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almost 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in return

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is that you help share these incredible men and

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women's stories so I can get them to every single

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person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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And one side note, I was sick as a dog when we

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did this conversation, so you may hear some coughing

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in the background. I apologize for that. So with

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that being said, I introduce to you Mark Mycoskie.

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Enjoy. All right, well, Mark, I want to start

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by saying, firstly, thank you for driving. all

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the way to Ocala, Florida to come to my home.

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And secondly, for people listening, we did a

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conversation a few months ago, virtually. Yes,

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we did. And a lot has changed since then. So

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now we're doing it face to face. We scratched

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the first one because there's going to be so

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much value to this, especially when it comes

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to post -traumatic growth. So with that preamble

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out the way, I want to welcome you to my home

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today. Thanks, James. This is the second time

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I've been able to be in your home. And that's

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one of the things I value most is the power of

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connectivity and to share space with you physically

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versus over a screen. It means the world to me.

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I remember last time you welcomed me into your

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home, offered me some breakfast, some Marmite

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on toast, and I politely declined. But for you

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to open your doors to me, that means the world.

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It really does. The connectivity piece is huge

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in my life right now. So you told me this just

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before we hit record, exactly when our paths

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first crossed. So talk to me about which platform

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that was. It was way back in the early days of

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the Dark Side Project. And I think it was Instagram

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and Facebook post. We're probably talking maybe

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eight, 10 years ago. I wouldn't, if I had to

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guess. The podcast is eight and a half years

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ago, and I think it was right around that time.

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Yeah, so it had to be right around that time.

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And I remember some of the powerful posts at

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a very powerful time for me. I remember tagging

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you in a post where I was trying to address my

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demons by working out at the training center

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beforehand and just how I was feeling before

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I started. I was like, this guy knows what he's

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talking about. He's right on point, so. Well,

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this is what's beautiful. And, you know, my Instagram

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page was shut down. So trying to be that voice

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of reason and kindness and compassion in the

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middle is probably the most censored voice there

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is out there. You can have porn and violence

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and Instagram's fine with it. But it is such

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a powerful platform. It is such an incredible

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way to connect people. And, you know, whether

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it's learning of losing one of our brothers and

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sisters or whether it's learning of all the ways

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to heal, you know, putting hope into the fact

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that there are ways out of this. even and i'm

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sure we'll dive into a little bit the the work

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week revolution has happened right that word

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has been shared through the internet you know

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through podcasts through videos and all these

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things so it's it's amazing if you create your

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social media to be one of you know inspiration

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and hope that all the good stuff does start coming

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across your radar then. Yeah, definitely. And

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I've kind of stepped away from the social media

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as far as Facebook and Instagram and all that

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just for my own well -being and mental health.

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I don't have to be on there, so I don't. I don't

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watch a lot of TV and news, and I'm at the point

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in my journey where the more positive I can inject

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into my being, the better. So only real social

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media, if you want to call it that, is LinkedIn.

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where I can kind of create my own algorithm and

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delete and block things I don't want and then

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focus on the things I do. Absolutely. All right.

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Well, for people listening, if you were at home,

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which part of the country would we find you in?

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Just north of Atlanta, the Atlanta area, North

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Georgia mountains. Probably from the city proper,

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maybe an hour north towards Tennessee area. north

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georgia mountains were you in any way affected

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by the uh the hurricane that ended up decimating

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north carolina uh no i was not not personally

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or physically my daughter lived in north carolina

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they've since moved to georgia but they weren't

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affected by it as well so no we got very fortunate

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we spooled up all the resources before it and

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uh We were ready, but nothing happened. Okay.

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We're good. All right. Well, let's start at the

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very beginning of your timeline then. So tell

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me where you were born and tell me a little bit

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about your family dynamic, what your parents

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did, how many siblings. All right. So I was born

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and raised in Kalamazoo, Michigan. That's where

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my dad was Marine and my mom, she was going to

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school, to university to be a teacher. And they

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met in the marching band at Western Michigan

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University. This was Vietnam era. So my dad was

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a Marine. He went to Okinawa for a time and stayed

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in contact with my mom and then came back and

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they connected. And then from there, they were

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very service oriented, like helping your fellow

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human being. And that was always instilled to

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us from a very young age. I'm second oldest of

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10 kids. Pretty big family. Pretty big family.

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Second oldest of 10 kids. I've got two brothers

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and seven sisters. So there's a high female influence

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in my home, which I attribute to a lot of the

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caring motherhood side of who I am. Just being

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there to serve other people. I know a lot of

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times in the alpha... Alpha world of firefighting

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and everything else, we try to put on this huge

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bravado. And I think that's what's helped me

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have a healthy career is to have that motherly

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service side aspect to what I'm doing. Grew up,

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my parents, that's actually why I'm down here

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in this area. As my parents aged, mom's been

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recently diagnosed with Parkinson's and Lewy

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body dementia. Dad's dealing with some... physical

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side. So mom's mental cognitive side is going

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down pretty rapidly and dad's physical side is

00:11:16.679 --> 00:11:20.080
going. So, um, as we've rallied the wagon, so

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to speak with the siblings and try to take care

00:11:22.179 --> 00:11:24.279
of my parents, um, that's why I'm down here to

00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:27.120
kind of get eyes on. So I'm sorry to hear about

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your parents. Um, it's a rough thing to watch,

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but it's also been, it's been a blessing as well.

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Um, To watch them serve their whole lives, to

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come to a place where they have to receive the

00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:42.919
service has been kind of a perspective shift

00:11:42.919 --> 00:11:46.399
in my mind as well. Sometimes when we're always

00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:48.000
the helpers and the healers, we're going to need

00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:51.669
help and healing as well. Absolutely. Well, firstly,

00:11:51.769 --> 00:11:54.289
that large family. I'm one of five, so that pales

00:11:54.289 --> 00:11:57.029
in comparison to yours. But where did you stand

00:11:57.029 --> 00:11:58.950
as far as chronologically in the brothers and

00:11:58.950 --> 00:12:01.090
sisters? I'm second oldest, so I have an older

00:12:01.090 --> 00:12:04.129
sister. She's no longer mortally on this planet,

00:12:04.169 --> 00:12:07.850
and I feel her presence pretty regularly. She

00:12:07.850 --> 00:12:11.049
was born with a brain tumor, brain cancer, wasn't

00:12:11.049 --> 00:12:12.710
supposed to live past the age of three, and she

00:12:12.710 --> 00:12:16.149
lived till she was in her 30s, so when she turned

00:12:16.149 --> 00:12:19.720
30. And quite frankly, Even though it hasn't

00:12:19.720 --> 00:12:22.860
been proven, we think that it's related to the

00:12:22.860 --> 00:12:26.059
Agent Orange stuff. There's been some studies

00:12:26.059 --> 00:12:29.759
showing that those soldiers that were exposed

00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:33.200
to Agent Orange, their firstborns, have a lot

00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:35.240
of the signs and symptoms and diseases that she

00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:38.399
had. But that's never been proven. But Mindy

00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:47.710
was, she was an angel on Earth. Taught me a lot

00:12:47.710 --> 00:12:52.610
about being self -aware and welcoming those that

00:12:52.610 --> 00:12:54.049
are struggling in, even though you have your

00:12:54.049 --> 00:12:58.230
own struggles, that if you're present, even though

00:12:58.230 --> 00:13:00.809
you can't be there physically, that if you're

00:13:00.809 --> 00:13:03.090
always there for them emotionally, things are

00:13:03.090 --> 00:13:06.629
going to work out. What, when you reflect back

00:13:06.629 --> 00:13:10.750
now, was her mindset? Because being given a death

00:13:10.750 --> 00:13:13.789
sentence at the age of three, that must just

00:13:13.789 --> 00:13:18.019
reframe. you know, our mortality in a totally

00:13:18.019 --> 00:13:19.759
different way. And I, one would assume that maybe

00:13:19.759 --> 00:13:21.799
there's a lot more gratitude infused when you've

00:13:21.799 --> 00:13:24.440
got that kind of diagnosis. Yeah, it was, it

00:13:24.440 --> 00:13:26.179
was cool to kind of walk our journey together.

00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:27.860
We went to the same high school. She was two

00:13:27.860 --> 00:13:31.019
years older than me. So to see, because she had

00:13:31.019 --> 00:13:33.559
kind of a droopy eye from some of her, her brain

00:13:33.559 --> 00:13:36.299
surgeries when she was younger to, to see the

00:13:36.299 --> 00:13:38.279
cruelty of humanity, make fun of her for these

00:13:38.279 --> 00:13:40.200
situations and that kind of thing, and not see

00:13:40.200 --> 00:13:42.620
her soul and spirit for what it was, was kind

00:13:42.620 --> 00:13:47.820
of painful to watch. But she had a great faith.

00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:50.059
She focused on that faith and she was very self

00:13:50.059 --> 00:13:52.460
-aware. She could eat a food and if it affected

00:13:52.460 --> 00:13:55.080
her a certain way, as far as the way her body

00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:57.019
reacted, she knew what the food was and what

00:13:57.019 --> 00:14:02.299
was in that food. And that's really what elongated

00:14:02.299 --> 00:14:04.980
her life was to be self -aware of the foods that

00:14:04.980 --> 00:14:07.000
affected her negatively. So she could put those

00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:08.779
positive things in her body or the things that

00:14:08.779 --> 00:14:12.740
helped her overcome things. And that's where

00:14:12.740 --> 00:14:15.820
her light. her light shines. She played the piano

00:14:15.820 --> 00:14:18.419
on Sunday mornings before church. And there's

00:14:18.419 --> 00:14:21.159
been times in my home when my kids have kind

00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:23.340
of musically inclined as well, would play the

00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:25.399
piano before church. And it automatically takes

00:14:25.399 --> 00:14:29.500
me back to those times listening to the piano

00:14:29.500 --> 00:14:31.860
and just that spiritual side of thing. And music

00:14:31.860 --> 00:14:35.299
in my family is one of those settling influences.

00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:40.240
So pretty powerful. She actually did some missionary

00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:42.539
work in your neck of the woods. She served in

00:14:42.539 --> 00:14:48.320
Leeds. Oh, wow. Yeah. And that's when her final

00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:50.720
stages of her life actually started. She started

00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:52.399
having headaches when she was on that mission,

00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:54.519
came back home and they found another brain tumor.

00:14:54.580 --> 00:14:57.440
And that's kind of where the health decline started.

00:14:57.879 --> 00:15:01.000
When I was in the school age, the only fights

00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:03.179
I ever got into were protecting my brother. He

00:15:03.179 --> 00:15:07.240
was kind of awkward, super intelligent, but socially

00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:09.299
awkward somewhat. And he would get picked on

00:15:09.299 --> 00:15:11.669
all the time. We hated each other. when we were

00:15:11.669 --> 00:15:13.470
at home, me and my brother, but someone picked

00:15:13.470 --> 00:15:16.169
on him, blood is thicker than water, and they

00:15:16.169 --> 00:15:18.610
weren't spectacular fights either, but they were

00:15:18.610 --> 00:15:22.029
altercations. Did you find yourself kind of stepping

00:15:22.029 --> 00:15:24.309
up in that way, or was it never to that point?

00:15:24.509 --> 00:15:27.389
It really never was to that point. Like I said,

00:15:27.429 --> 00:15:29.429
she was two grades higher than me, so it's nothing

00:15:29.429 --> 00:15:35.809
that I really witnessed. In school, I was kind

00:15:35.809 --> 00:15:37.710
of a fun -loving. I got along with everybody.

00:15:37.830 --> 00:15:40.289
I didn't hang out with a certain crowd. hung

00:15:40.289 --> 00:15:43.129
out with the punks or I hung out with the athletes.

00:15:43.450 --> 00:15:48.529
I played sports in high school. And it was a

00:15:48.529 --> 00:15:51.070
pretty culturally diverse school. Kalamazoo is

00:15:51.070 --> 00:15:56.970
halfway between Detroit and Chicago. So it was

00:15:56.970 --> 00:16:00.049
the early 90s and it was a great time to be alive

00:16:00.049 --> 00:16:02.990
and just connect to somebody regardless of the

00:16:02.990 --> 00:16:06.649
way I approach things. It's not no color, N -O

00:16:06.649 --> 00:16:09.860
color, it's K -N -O -W color. Know, understand

00:16:09.860 --> 00:16:12.700
color, understand the cultural differences, connect

00:16:12.700 --> 00:16:15.500
to people. It's not not seeing that they're different.

00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:18.460
It's seeing the differences, finding those one

00:16:18.460 --> 00:16:20.440
or two things that we can connect on and building

00:16:20.440 --> 00:16:26.299
our relationships off those things. So that's

00:16:26.299 --> 00:16:30.460
kind of where I was in high school and in the

00:16:30.460 --> 00:16:32.419
powerful side of things and the way I was growing

00:16:32.419 --> 00:16:37.149
up. I was in Boy Scouts at the time. achieved

00:16:37.149 --> 00:16:39.929
my Eagle Scout status. Well, my mom achieved

00:16:39.929 --> 00:16:44.250
my Eagle Scout status. She was pretty persistent

00:16:44.250 --> 00:16:46.610
in making sure that I accomplished that. I obtained

00:16:46.610 --> 00:16:49.490
my Eagle Scout when I was 13 years old and was

00:16:49.490 --> 00:16:51.870
able to move on to the fumes, the perfumes and

00:16:51.870 --> 00:16:55.889
the car fumes to focus on becoming an adolescent.

00:16:56.169 --> 00:16:58.649
So there's a lot of things I learned through

00:16:58.649 --> 00:17:00.789
the Boy Scouts as well in that time of my life

00:17:00.789 --> 00:17:02.769
that I carry on to this day as a firefighter.

00:17:02.809 --> 00:17:06.529
So that is what's such a shame when When my son

00:17:06.529 --> 00:17:08.769
was young, it was only for a little bit. He expressed

00:17:08.769 --> 00:17:13.930
interest in that organization. But there's obviously

00:17:13.930 --> 00:17:15.869
that other side where we know that there was

00:17:15.869 --> 00:17:18.950
incidences where people were allowed to be around

00:17:18.950 --> 00:17:20.869
children. And then in some cases, it wasn't even

00:17:20.869 --> 00:17:23.089
addressed within the organization. For people

00:17:23.089 --> 00:17:26.230
listening now, talk to me about the benefits

00:17:26.230 --> 00:17:31.009
of that. And how did you put your kids in that

00:17:31.009 --> 00:17:35.240
at all? We tried to. My son, my son actually

00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:38.680
late diagnosed in life. It wasn't until he graduated

00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:40.599
high school that he got his autism diagnosis,

00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:46.720
which shined a light on a lot of things. Caleb's

00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:50.680
very intellectual, but there was a lot of things

00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:53.339
I tried to. Like I said, I was an athlete. I

00:17:53.339 --> 00:17:54.960
was trying to get him to do all these things

00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:56.839
that I did because they were beneficial to me,

00:17:56.920 --> 00:17:58.640
and it just didn't click for him because that's

00:17:58.640 --> 00:18:02.000
not who it was. So, yeah, we've always been involved.

00:18:02.059 --> 00:18:05.319
The religion I grew up in, there's regular times

00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:07.859
where on Sundays you'd stand up in front of the

00:18:07.859 --> 00:18:12.000
congregation and talk, do a talk, a speech in

00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:14.579
front of the congregation on whatever religious

00:18:14.579 --> 00:18:19.119
topic was going on that Sunday. And then with

00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:22.049
Boy Scouts, to do my Eagle Scout project, to

00:18:22.049 --> 00:18:25.390
have to reach out and at the time send letters,

00:18:25.430 --> 00:18:27.630
because this was before computers. I'm dating

00:18:27.630 --> 00:18:30.670
myself. Computers were at their very beginning

00:18:30.670 --> 00:18:33.130
stages, but to have to go out and shake hands

00:18:33.130 --> 00:18:35.809
and look people in the eyes and connect with

00:18:35.809 --> 00:18:40.150
people to get things done is a huge part of the

00:18:40.150 --> 00:18:43.190
foundation of who I am today. Because I think

00:18:43.190 --> 00:18:44.930
it's a shame. I mean, it's a great organization,

00:18:45.170 --> 00:18:48.390
but it did. It did put red flags up in me. And

00:18:48.390 --> 00:18:49.650
what I ended up doing is that, right, how can

00:18:49.650 --> 00:18:52.009
I mirror that within groups that I feel comfortable

00:18:52.009 --> 00:18:54.390
with at this moment? Right. But, you know, I've

00:18:54.390 --> 00:18:56.369
got friends that were, you know, a scout masters

00:18:56.369 --> 00:18:58.450
themselves now that are, you know, amazing, trustworthy,

00:18:58.890 --> 00:19:01.730
phenomenal human beings. But it's just a shame

00:19:01.730 --> 00:19:04.740
that some people. I kind of dissuaded a little

00:19:04.740 --> 00:19:06.940
bit to what I would argue is a very positive

00:19:06.940 --> 00:19:10.440
organization, because as we see in life so often,

00:19:10.539 --> 00:19:12.880
the actions of the few, you know, ruin it for

00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:14.619
the masses. Right. And I was very fortunate.

00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:17.220
It was also a good time to connect with my father

00:19:17.220 --> 00:19:20.180
because he was a scout master at times. He was

00:19:20.180 --> 00:19:23.559
a school teacher by trade. He taught in the public

00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:26.460
education system for 30 -plus years and, quite

00:19:26.460 --> 00:19:29.099
frankly, probably has more PTSD from being a

00:19:29.099 --> 00:19:31.779
teacher than from the time he spent in Vietnam.

00:19:34.019 --> 00:19:36.720
I remember many nights of him grading papers,

00:19:36.779 --> 00:19:40.079
watching MASH on TV because he could connect

00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:42.980
with the guys on MASH and he was grading papers

00:19:42.980 --> 00:19:45.170
at night. watching MASH, something that he was

00:19:45.170 --> 00:19:47.309
comfortable with. So like I said, I think the

00:19:47.309 --> 00:19:51.250
public education system caused more PTSD and

00:19:51.250 --> 00:19:53.849
issues in his life and where his mental state

00:19:53.849 --> 00:19:57.990
is than actual serving in the military. But that

00:19:57.990 --> 00:20:00.750
was my time to connect with dad. He was put a

00:20:00.750 --> 00:20:04.490
lot of time and effort. He's very, dad is a MacGyver.

00:20:04.730 --> 00:20:08.890
So he would have been a great firefighter. Beautiful.

00:20:09.950 --> 00:20:12.250
When you talked about Agent Orange, my father

00:20:12.250 --> 00:20:14.670
-in -law actually has been fighting that for

00:20:14.670 --> 00:20:17.029
a long time. He's had multiple bouts of illnesses

00:20:17.029 --> 00:20:20.569
because of that. It's interesting because, I

00:20:20.569 --> 00:20:23.269
mean, you have that now. You see all these cancers

00:20:23.269 --> 00:20:25.230
and deaths from the burn pits in the current

00:20:25.230 --> 00:20:29.470
military generation. But then you listen to the

00:20:29.470 --> 00:20:31.430
science of Sarah Jenke, for example, talking

00:20:31.430 --> 00:20:35.210
about our profession and all the childhood diseases

00:20:35.210 --> 00:20:37.309
that we're seeing and the infertility and the

00:20:37.309 --> 00:20:40.589
miscarriages. And, you know, sadly, I think a

00:20:40.589 --> 00:20:42.250
lot of people think, oh, it's the fires, it's

00:20:42.250 --> 00:20:44.109
the toxins. But actually, if you look at the

00:20:44.109 --> 00:20:47.430
impact of sleep deprivation and shift work, that

00:20:47.430 --> 00:20:49.970
is actually a massive contributor to that. So

00:20:49.970 --> 00:20:51.789
one of the biggest things that I'm trying to

00:20:51.789 --> 00:20:53.829
get people to understand is, you know, you might

00:20:53.829 --> 00:20:55.450
beat your chest and be like, oh, sleep when I'm

00:20:55.450 --> 00:20:57.970
dead. You know, I'm Kurt Russell, 19, you know,

00:20:57.970 --> 00:21:02.109
2025. Okay, hero, that's great. What if I told

00:21:02.109 --> 00:21:04.450
you that by you not fighting for a work week

00:21:04.450 --> 00:21:07.660
that's healthy, your child could have brain cancer.

00:21:07.700 --> 00:21:10.180
Your child could have leukemia, you know, could

00:21:10.180 --> 00:21:11.920
have Down syndrome, could have autism, could

00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:14.299
have, you know, not that some of those are not

00:21:14.299 --> 00:21:18.059
even terrible to have, of course, but the fatal

00:21:18.059 --> 00:21:20.680
ones, you know, does that not wake you up and

00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:22.619
say, I'm going to fight against that? You know,

00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:25.480
the people in Vietnam, I'm sure in 2025, like,

00:21:25.500 --> 00:21:27.019
yeah, you need to stop dropping Agent Orange

00:21:27.019 --> 00:21:28.680
on us. There's a certain point where like, okay,

00:21:28.700 --> 00:21:31.039
enough is enough. This is what I feel in our

00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:33.359
profession. And people aren't talking about it

00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:36.710
is. it is affecting our children, our ability

00:21:36.710 --> 00:21:39.349
to reproduce healthily and the health of the

00:21:39.349 --> 00:21:41.750
offspring when they're born. Right, definitely.

00:21:41.910 --> 00:21:45.490
And I feel that 100%. This is probably the point

00:21:45.490 --> 00:21:47.450
in the podcast where I drop the disclaimer that

00:21:47.450 --> 00:21:49.950
my viewpoints and my perspectives are those of

00:21:49.950 --> 00:21:52.630
my own and not of the agency that I work for

00:21:52.630 --> 00:21:55.750
and puts a paycheck in my bank every two weeks.

00:21:56.910 --> 00:21:59.569
And I'm pretty passionate about the health and

00:21:59.569 --> 00:22:01.190
wellness side of things. That's kind of what's

00:22:01.190 --> 00:22:04.549
brought me down to Florida. I did a lot of work,

00:22:04.589 --> 00:22:06.869
used to do a lot of work with the Florida Firefighter

00:22:06.869 --> 00:22:09.130
Safety Health Collaborative for just these things.

00:22:09.450 --> 00:22:13.450
I was Dark Side Project, Fit to Fight Fire, all

00:22:13.450 --> 00:22:17.390
these good agencies or good initiatives opened

00:22:17.390 --> 00:22:20.950
my eyes to the power of physical fitness and

00:22:20.950 --> 00:22:23.329
mental health and cancer prevention and all this

00:22:23.329 --> 00:22:26.630
other kind of stuff. And at the time, Florida

00:22:26.630 --> 00:22:28.769
was the place that was doing it right. Chris

00:22:28.769 --> 00:22:31.589
Bader started the... collaborative with Sam Eaton

00:22:31.589 --> 00:22:34.670
and Dustin Hawkins and there's all kinds of names

00:22:34.670 --> 00:22:39.009
that are connected and uh I got connected with

00:22:39.009 --> 00:22:41.009
them because I was kind of the unofficial wellness

00:22:41.009 --> 00:22:44.210
person in my department because we do a lot a

00:22:44.210 --> 00:22:46.130
good job at a lot of things in my department

00:22:46.130 --> 00:22:50.490
um one of the things we don't is manage projects

00:22:50.490 --> 00:22:54.849
well so if you would ask me years ago where I

00:22:54.849 --> 00:22:57.960
would say The places we're failing, it's the

00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:00.259
admin positions that handle all the special projects

00:23:00.259 --> 00:23:02.539
so that the line personnel can do line personnel

00:23:02.539 --> 00:23:05.140
things. And that's where the ball gets dropped

00:23:05.140 --> 00:23:09.440
a lot because it's not the, if a person's working

00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:11.299
on one of those special projects, it's not their

00:23:11.299 --> 00:23:13.359
primary role in the fire service. So a lot of

00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:18.299
times that ball gets dropped. And the wellness

00:23:18.299 --> 00:23:20.660
issues a lot of times are check the box initiatives.

00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:23.759
All right. We do annual health screenings. Or

00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:25.940
we're going to buy gear extractors, but they're

00:23:25.940 --> 00:23:28.559
government bid, low bid gear extractors that

00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:30.720
don't have the right pH in the water, the chemicals,

00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:34.960
the cleaning products or detergents to do what

00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:39.000
they need to do, the sleep hygienes in the firehouses,

00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:42.740
the work week. We recently at my department looked

00:23:42.740 --> 00:23:44.579
at changing to a different schedule. We worked

00:23:44.579 --> 00:23:48.160
the typical 24 -48 schedule, and there was an

00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:50.910
initiative. They were going to change to... the

00:23:50.910 --> 00:23:54.150
portland schedule because biggest reason they're

00:23:54.150 --> 00:23:57.369
going to do that is um because we wouldn't have

00:23:57.369 --> 00:23:59.170
to hire a whole nother shift or a whole nother

00:23:59.170 --> 00:24:01.190
platoon so we could keep our current staffing

00:24:01.190 --> 00:24:06.589
just change the work week so instead of doing

00:24:06.589 --> 00:24:09.190
the exact right things we try to chip away at

00:24:09.190 --> 00:24:11.410
things and do things at the speed of government

00:24:11.410 --> 00:24:14.450
and quite frankly it never gets to the destination

00:24:14.450 --> 00:24:17.519
that we need to get to It's interesting. I had

00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:19.539
a conversation with one of the Orange County

00:24:19.539 --> 00:24:26.559
Union guys and he was at Tallahassee and Danny

00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:30.279
Alvarez and Erica Roth were proposing several

00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:33.059
things in Florida, including making a 42 hour,

00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:35.140
this is shorter, but it is a 42 hour work week,

00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:38.299
a professional standard in the state of Florida,

00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:40.539
which I think that would be phenomenal. I mean,

00:24:40.539 --> 00:24:42.599
with the whole state of Florida goes to it, now

00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:44.180
we're really going to have ripple effects through.

00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:47.619
through the rest of the state. And so I said

00:24:47.619 --> 00:24:49.380
to him, well, that's amazing. You know, how are

00:24:49.380 --> 00:24:53.220
you going as far as 2472? Oh, well, this will

00:24:53.220 --> 00:24:56.099
be the first step. And I told him, like, well,

00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:00.059
no, like legislation is not how you make changes

00:25:00.059 --> 00:25:02.440
in a fire department. If that was the case, then

00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:04.980
the city of Gainesville and Miramar and Destin

00:25:04.980 --> 00:25:08.559
and, you know, Palm Beach County and Pasco County

00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:10.789
and all these departments. they still wouldn't

00:25:10.789 --> 00:25:12.410
have made the move. What happened is a bunch

00:25:12.410 --> 00:25:14.089
of courageous men and women got together, whether

00:25:14.089 --> 00:25:16.309
it was their admin, their union, whoever it was

00:25:16.309 --> 00:25:18.650
that got behind it and said, you know what, this

00:25:18.650 --> 00:25:21.049
isn't working and we need to change it because

00:25:21.049 --> 00:25:22.950
you can do whatever you want in the fire department.

00:25:23.069 --> 00:25:25.690
You can accept laterals if you decide. You know,

00:25:25.710 --> 00:25:28.589
you make your own rules pretty much. And so this

00:25:28.589 --> 00:25:30.930
whole, oh, you know, we've got to wait for politicians

00:25:30.930 --> 00:25:33.630
to fix it for us. Like, yeah, that's the coward's

00:25:33.630 --> 00:25:35.769
way of doing it. Or you could grow a set and

00:25:35.769 --> 00:25:37.509
just say enough is enough. I'm tired of burying

00:25:37.509 --> 00:25:39.720
our men and women. We need to fix this and we're

00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:41.519
just going to start now. Because as you said,

00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:44.160
the box checking isn't working. We've got a prime

00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:46.359
event. We've got an extractor. You know, we've

00:25:46.359 --> 00:25:48.559
got a peer support team and we just went to another

00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:50.700
funeral. Miami -Dade's had three in eight months.

00:25:51.259 --> 00:25:54.599
So is it working? No, it's not. So what can we

00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:56.420
do differently? And then what's beautiful now

00:25:56.420 --> 00:25:57.900
is you can go to Florida and say, all right,

00:25:57.980 --> 00:26:00.680
let's say it's Miami -Dade, Palm Beach County.

00:26:01.380 --> 00:26:04.019
How did you get this started? Let's say you're

00:26:04.019 --> 00:26:06.119
a mid -sized department in Gainesville. How did

00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:08.880
you make this work? So this is what drives me

00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:12.420
crazy now. If politicians fix things, we wouldn't

00:26:12.420 --> 00:26:15.140
have an obesity crisis and an opioid crisis because

00:26:15.140 --> 00:26:17.839
they would have fixed it years ago. So waiting

00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:20.380
for some person in a suit, and there are some

00:26:20.380 --> 00:26:22.440
good ones, some Danny I'll put up there, but

00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:25.680
waiting for people to fix things for you, we

00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:29.119
know that doesn't work. So newsflash, if you

00:26:29.119 --> 00:26:30.500
actually want to make changes, you've got to

00:26:30.500 --> 00:26:32.579
do it yourself. Whether you freaking pick up

00:26:32.579 --> 00:26:34.599
a microphone and start a podcast or whether you

00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:37.160
start a collaborative down south or whether you

00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:40.779
start an Instagram page and, you know, show workouts,

00:26:40.900 --> 00:26:43.319
whatever it is, we're all a piece of the movement.

00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:45.900
But it drives me crazy when people are hiding

00:26:45.900 --> 00:26:48.519
behind litigation or it's not litigation, but,

00:26:48.579 --> 00:26:52.819
you know, these laws being put in place. Or the

00:26:52.819 --> 00:26:55.279
one thing I hear all the time, studies. Oh, do

00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:57.950
you have data? And I know I'm beating the dead

00:26:57.950 --> 00:27:00.289
horse, but people ask me that. Do you send me

00:27:00.289 --> 00:27:02.210
studies that a 42 -hour work week is healthier

00:27:02.210 --> 00:27:05.930
than a 56? And I always say, yeah, I've got another

00:27:05.930 --> 00:27:09.349
study as well. It's a study on if it hurts when

00:27:09.349 --> 00:27:10.769
you get stabbed with a kitchen knife. Do you

00:27:10.769 --> 00:27:12.670
want me to send that as well? Of course it's

00:27:12.670 --> 00:27:14.029
fucking better. You know what I mean? At what

00:27:14.029 --> 00:27:16.829
point are you going to just go, it's common sense?

00:27:16.930 --> 00:27:18.930
And I think this is what we need to do as a profession

00:27:18.930 --> 00:27:22.450
now, is take a step back. What is working? What

00:27:22.450 --> 00:27:25.190
isn't working? And what can we just band together

00:27:25.190 --> 00:27:26.789
and say, we're going to fix this? And like you

00:27:26.789 --> 00:27:29.269
said, you know, moving the shifts around of a

00:27:29.269 --> 00:27:32.670
56 hour week is still a 56 hour week. The way

00:27:32.670 --> 00:27:34.690
that you improve people's health, the way that

00:27:34.690 --> 00:27:36.390
you attract young people back into the profession.

00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:39.079
is you actually finally make the work week the

00:27:39.079 --> 00:27:42.980
same as everyone else, 42 hours. 100%. And why

00:27:42.980 --> 00:27:45.599
should a salary have to change? Because we're

00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:47.839
changing our work week, like you said. It doesn't.

00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:49.059
You go to training. I tell people, you go to

00:27:49.059 --> 00:27:51.160
training, do they cut your hours? No. That's

00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:53.859
a complete myth that people put out there because

00:27:53.859 --> 00:27:55.799
they don't want to actually have the courage

00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:58.539
to make changes. So they find every excuse of

00:27:58.539 --> 00:28:00.920
why not to do it. A number of pushback I've had

00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:03.119
from firefighters. Oh, they'll never work. They'll

00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:05.410
never go for it. We don't have the money. Like

00:28:05.410 --> 00:28:07.150
imagine if the World War II generation thought

00:28:07.150 --> 00:28:09.670
that. We'd be speaking German right now. Right.

00:28:10.230 --> 00:28:12.470
In the past six to eight months in my department

00:28:12.470 --> 00:28:14.730
alone, we've got, so we're a public safety department.

00:28:14.869 --> 00:28:17.789
We've got about 100 firefighters. And then we've

00:28:17.789 --> 00:28:21.670
got on the police side, that 150 -ish range on

00:28:21.670 --> 00:28:23.910
the police side. And our department alone in

00:28:23.910 --> 00:28:26.509
the past six to eight months, we've lost three

00:28:26.509 --> 00:28:29.970
people to cancer. Two of the guys, firefighters

00:28:29.970 --> 00:28:34.269
that were two to three years from retirement.

00:28:34.859 --> 00:28:37.259
A police officer that was four months from retirement.

00:28:39.319 --> 00:28:43.180
Horrendous. And again, like I always say, how

00:28:43.180 --> 00:28:45.299
many do we have to lose? Like I've said, tongue

00:28:45.299 --> 00:28:47.480
in cheek, just give me a number. You know, we've

00:28:47.480 --> 00:28:49.319
lost, you know, throwing a number out. We lost

00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:53.019
300 this year. We lost 297 this year. We'll make

00:28:53.019 --> 00:28:54.839
it to 300 and then we'll start changing. All

00:28:54.839 --> 00:28:57.859
right. Any volunteers? We need to get to 300.

00:28:58.000 --> 00:28:59.460
All right, boom. Now we're going to start changing.

00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:02.579
But it's not. We keep losing them over and over

00:29:02.579 --> 00:29:05.569
and over again. And I don't understand how you

00:29:05.569 --> 00:29:08.150
can be at the chief of a department, a union

00:29:08.150 --> 00:29:10.789
president, you know, or just anyone else within,

00:29:10.849 --> 00:29:12.970
you know, wearing the same union uniform and

00:29:12.970 --> 00:29:15.990
just be like, oh, well, you know, shrug shoulders,

00:29:16.069 --> 00:29:18.029
let's give them a nice funeral with bagpipes

00:29:18.029 --> 00:29:19.930
and folded flags. And then let's just go back

00:29:19.930 --> 00:29:21.849
to work. Let's just keep doing the same thing.

00:29:22.410 --> 00:29:24.910
Like, at what point do you say this is wrong?

00:29:24.990 --> 00:29:27.170
At what point do you really understood what a

00:29:27.170 --> 00:29:29.650
brotherhood and sisterhood is, which you honor

00:29:29.650 --> 00:29:31.990
the ones that you lost by fucking changing things?

00:29:32.460 --> 00:29:34.720
And I think it comes from a level of understanding

00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:37.559
as well. Are we doing what we need to do to educate

00:29:37.559 --> 00:29:39.880
those decision makers on what we actually do

00:29:39.880 --> 00:29:43.839
for a living? 100%. I mean, do they understand

00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:46.339
you can't do it with a citizen's academy or anything

00:29:46.339 --> 00:29:48.720
else? Come spend a month with me at the firehouse.

00:29:49.220 --> 00:29:51.380
Get up three or four times a night to go pick

00:29:51.380 --> 00:29:54.420
up grandma or whatever, which I understand that's

00:29:54.420 --> 00:29:56.740
what we do. That's a huge part of my moral injury

00:29:56.740 --> 00:29:59.880
piece. Up at the same firehouse where I took

00:29:59.880 --> 00:30:02.019
the phone call from my mom to say that my sister

00:30:02.019 --> 00:30:03.799
just passed away from her cancer. I'm assigned

00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:06.960
at that firehouse right now to where I'm picking

00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:09.940
up grandma four or five times a night at an old

00:30:09.940 --> 00:30:11.779
folks home that they're spending four or five

00:30:11.779 --> 00:30:15.200
grand a month to be at. Yet the people that are

00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:17.900
supposed to issue the care aren't doing the care.

00:30:17.980 --> 00:30:20.180
They call 911 to get a million and a half dollar

00:30:20.180 --> 00:30:23.619
fire truck with four salaried firefighters up

00:30:23.619 --> 00:30:25.980
there. to pick up grandma off the floor when

00:30:25.980 --> 00:30:28.299
I can't be down in Spring Hill, Florida to pick

00:30:28.299 --> 00:30:30.059
my mom up when she falls and breaks her leg.

00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:32.900
That's a huge moral injury piece for me. And

00:30:32.900 --> 00:30:35.000
that's my journey. That's just where I'm at.

00:30:35.059 --> 00:30:37.000
So those are things I've had to deal with personally.

00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:40.519
So it's not isolated to just the calls that we

00:30:40.519 --> 00:30:43.500
run. It's everything else that we're exposed

00:30:43.500 --> 00:30:47.160
to that ties into our life events as well. Oh,

00:30:47.180 --> 00:30:50.359
absolutely. And then again, it's where is the

00:30:50.359 --> 00:30:52.619
voice of going to, for example, a nursing home

00:30:52.619 --> 00:30:57.500
and saying, No. Like you need to hire two porters

00:30:57.500 --> 00:31:00.160
or whatever it is. If your nurses can't put someone

00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:01.799
back to bed, and I'm not talking about injured

00:31:01.799 --> 00:31:03.940
and they need a hospital stay, of course, that's

00:31:03.940 --> 00:31:05.299
where we come in. That's what we're paid to do.

00:31:05.619 --> 00:31:08.380
But a back to bed call in a medical facility,

00:31:08.680 --> 00:31:11.259
you should have people on staff that can return

00:31:11.259 --> 00:31:13.819
that person to bed. That is not the fire department's

00:31:13.819 --> 00:31:16.380
job. Like we were talking before we hit record.

00:31:17.099 --> 00:31:18.819
I've always said that one of the most rewarding

00:31:18.819 --> 00:31:21.470
things we've ever done. in our department is

00:31:21.470 --> 00:31:23.529
when you have that elderly couple in their home,

00:31:23.609 --> 00:31:26.990
you know, and the husband is full of guilt and

00:31:26.990 --> 00:31:28.849
shame because he was an able -bodied guy like

00:31:28.849 --> 00:31:30.829
you and me once. And now he doesn't have the

00:31:30.829 --> 00:31:32.769
strength to lift the love of his life off the

00:31:32.769 --> 00:31:35.130
floor. And she soiled herself and we come in

00:31:35.130 --> 00:31:37.150
and we clean her up and we put new clothes on

00:31:37.150 --> 00:31:40.269
her and we put her back to bed. That is a beautiful

00:31:40.269 --> 00:31:42.430
thing, but that's a home. That's a residential

00:31:42.430 --> 00:31:45.789
home, a facility like where you said they're

00:31:45.789 --> 00:31:47.730
paying, you know, the government or the individual

00:31:47.730 --> 00:31:50.680
is paying all that money. That's not where we're

00:31:50.680 --> 00:31:52.579
supposed to go. And for every time that we're

00:31:52.579 --> 00:31:55.059
doing that call, we might be missing the stroke,

00:31:55.119 --> 00:31:57.680
the choking, the cardiac arrest, the horrendous

00:31:57.680 --> 00:31:59.319
wreck where they're bleeding out and trapped.

00:32:00.019 --> 00:32:02.500
So it's not, you know, it's also about having

00:32:02.500 --> 00:32:05.799
the courage to say no. This is why I love GMR

00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:07.740
with their nurse navigation, integrating 911

00:32:07.740 --> 00:32:09.740
and taking all these non -emergent calls and

00:32:09.740 --> 00:32:13.960
sending them to... you know, through these nurses

00:32:13.960 --> 00:32:16.640
assigning resources that are non -emergent that

00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:18.819
are totally appropriate for those calls. Urgent

00:32:18.819 --> 00:32:21.019
care clinic appointments, you know, telehealth

00:32:21.019 --> 00:32:22.980
consultations so they can refill a prescription,

00:32:23.240 --> 00:32:26.380
you know, dentists and optometrists and all these

00:32:26.380 --> 00:32:27.859
other things that we get called, even the low

00:32:27.859 --> 00:32:30.220
acuity mental health calls. There are so many

00:32:30.220 --> 00:32:32.799
resources that are available that are so much

00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:35.799
cheaper and they keep an ER bed and they don't

00:32:35.799 --> 00:32:38.339
wake up a crew. But again, where is the courage

00:32:38.339 --> 00:32:41.160
to say, why the hell are we going to these calls?

00:32:41.240 --> 00:32:44.859
But it's this fear of litigation. But you can't

00:32:44.859 --> 00:32:47.079
sue everyone for everything. At some point, you've

00:32:47.079 --> 00:32:49.700
just got to say, all right, we're going to do

00:32:49.700 --> 00:32:51.859
this. And if you come at us with a lawsuit, well,

00:32:51.900 --> 00:32:54.480
we've done this, this, this, and this. So we

00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:56.940
did our due diligence. We sent them to the appropriate

00:32:56.940 --> 00:32:59.039
thing for that call. We gave them the option

00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:01.980
to call 911, and we actually go back and help

00:33:01.980 --> 00:33:04.359
them. But I mean, how many people just want...

00:33:04.759 --> 00:33:06.859
literally to feel better or need a refill or

00:33:06.859 --> 00:33:09.079
whatever it is. They don't need, as you said,

00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:11.299
a half a million, one and a half million dollar

00:33:11.299 --> 00:33:15.140
apparatus with four burly men and women coming

00:33:15.140 --> 00:33:17.319
with stretchers and monitors and everything for

00:33:17.319 --> 00:33:19.880
their 18 months old with a fever. They just want

00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:22.480
to know what to do. So, but it takes courage

00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:24.259
from our leadership to say, yeah, we're not going

00:33:24.259 --> 00:33:28.309
to send our men and women. on those kind of non

00:33:28.309 --> 00:33:30.650
-emergencies. That's not appropriate. Well, that

00:33:30.650 --> 00:33:32.710
ties into the shift schedule as well. It's not

00:33:32.710 --> 00:33:35.269
every alarm that bangs out is a fire alarm where

00:33:35.269 --> 00:33:37.589
we're running a thousand calls a year versus

00:33:37.589 --> 00:33:40.930
5 ,000 calls a year because we're having to get

00:33:40.930 --> 00:33:44.130
up to run all these medical calls. And I've been

00:33:44.130 --> 00:33:47.309
a paramedic. I've been a paramedic my whole career,

00:33:47.410 --> 00:33:49.910
so I value the medical side of things. Quite

00:33:49.910 --> 00:33:52.329
frankly, I feel that I've had more effect on

00:33:52.329 --> 00:33:54.470
my population, my community, the people I respond

00:33:54.470 --> 00:33:56.910
to as a paramedic than I do as a firefighter.

00:33:56.910 --> 00:33:59.730
100%. Because when we show up, regardless of

00:33:59.730 --> 00:34:02.670
what we do, just us showing up fixes the situation

00:34:02.670 --> 00:34:05.569
for that person. Their emergency stops when we

00:34:05.569 --> 00:34:09.510
show up. I've had more connections and relationships

00:34:09.510 --> 00:34:12.730
with former patients, not because I started an

00:34:12.730 --> 00:34:17.320
IV on that patient. But because I was able to

00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:19.039
ride in the back of the box holding their hand

00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:22.860
to comfort them the last 10 miles of their journey

00:34:22.860 --> 00:34:25.599
and connect at a personal level, which sometimes

00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:28.420
they're not going to get. I've been very fortunate.

00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:31.739
I know one of your struggles in your career is

00:34:31.739 --> 00:34:33.860
that you haven't had any cardiac arrest safes.

00:34:33.880 --> 00:34:37.239
You've mentioned that multiple times. I've been

00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:39.820
very fortunate that I've been able to be a vehicle

00:34:39.820 --> 00:34:42.639
or a tool in the Lord's hand to bring people

00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:47.429
back. When they were had a cardiac arrest to

00:34:47.429 --> 00:34:50.489
walk at American Health Walk with somebody that

00:34:50.489 --> 00:34:52.409
we brought back and then she's had her second

00:34:52.409 --> 00:34:56.269
child to see one of the people that we saved

00:34:56.269 --> 00:34:59.909
at the YMCA after he had a heart attack, cardiac

00:34:59.909 --> 00:35:02.989
arrest, show up to our community CPR classes

00:35:02.989 --> 00:35:05.750
to share his story, to be able to connect those

00:35:05.750 --> 00:35:09.070
two people as peers so they can share in their

00:35:09.070 --> 00:35:11.650
journey. Why am I still alive after this event

00:35:11.650 --> 00:35:18.010
happened to me? During COVID times, we had a

00:35:18.010 --> 00:35:20.530
guy that, and I'm not going to get in the conversation

00:35:20.530 --> 00:35:23.050
on immunizations or anything like that, but he

00:35:23.050 --> 00:35:28.369
had a recent shot and had a cardiac arrest. His

00:35:28.369 --> 00:35:31.530
wife was walking him to the bathroom, had an

00:35:31.530 --> 00:35:35.670
arrest, and he fell on top of her. But to be

00:35:35.670 --> 00:35:39.320
able to connect with her. That a year later after

00:35:39.320 --> 00:35:40.960
the arrest, I get a knock at the door at the

00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:43.320
firehouse and she's saying, hey, my therapist

00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:45.440
said I need to come by and see you because your

00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:47.699
name keeps coming up because of the compassion

00:35:47.699 --> 00:35:49.820
and empathy that you showed to me on that scene.

00:35:50.340 --> 00:35:52.659
And to be able to go to her townhouse and help

00:35:52.659 --> 00:35:56.380
her change light bulbs and to do this or to do

00:35:56.380 --> 00:35:58.579
that or carry a bag of mulch to her backyard

00:35:58.579 --> 00:36:00.659
so that she could keep maintaining her house

00:36:00.659 --> 00:36:02.579
because her husband is no longer there to do

00:36:02.579 --> 00:36:06.280
it. To have that connectivity is what fuels my

00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:11.889
fire. It's funny when you think about the assignments

00:36:11.889 --> 00:36:15.130
coming from beyond. They're like, all right,

00:36:15.130 --> 00:36:17.130
Mark's going to go to a cardiac arrest. Who wants

00:36:17.130 --> 00:36:19.449
to go? Jesus? All right, yeah, go help him save.

00:36:19.670 --> 00:36:22.070
All right, James has got one. Anyone? And the

00:36:22.070 --> 00:36:25.090
reaper puts up his hand again. Fuck. All right,

00:36:25.110 --> 00:36:29.449
come on. I can see it in my mind. These poor

00:36:29.449 --> 00:36:33.449
people, as the tunnel is closing, they see James

00:36:33.449 --> 00:36:35.170
Gearing as their medic. The graphic nozzle of

00:36:35.170 --> 00:36:39.670
James Gearing. All right. Well, let's let's go

00:36:39.670 --> 00:36:41.409
kind of your journey into the fire service. And

00:36:41.409 --> 00:36:43.409
so just just to kind of back up a little bit.

00:36:43.429 --> 00:36:45.469
Firstly, when you're in the school age, what

00:36:45.469 --> 00:36:47.210
kind of sports and exercise are you doing and

00:36:47.210 --> 00:36:48.789
playing? Because you're still in incredible shape

00:36:48.789 --> 00:36:51.929
now. I appreciate that. I hit 52 years old yesterday.

00:36:52.349 --> 00:36:58.269
So and I started I played Little League baseball

00:36:58.269 --> 00:37:00.909
growing up. I was never really good at it. I'm

00:37:00.909 --> 00:37:05.550
very fortunate to. Get into a team sport during

00:37:05.550 --> 00:37:08.329
that time. By the time I hit high school, I was

00:37:08.329 --> 00:37:10.170
really not good. I stopped playing baseball,

00:37:10.309 --> 00:37:14.590
JV year. But that's when I transitioned a lot

00:37:14.590 --> 00:37:17.789
into football. And that's where I learned the

00:37:17.789 --> 00:37:20.469
importance of a mentor and a coach and somebody

00:37:20.469 --> 00:37:23.869
there to hold you accountable to do things. That

00:37:23.869 --> 00:37:26.469
it's not just showing up. It's the time that

00:37:26.469 --> 00:37:29.150
you put in off the field as much as it is the

00:37:29.150 --> 00:37:31.250
time you put in on the field. And I remember.

00:37:31.900 --> 00:37:35.239
My freshman JV coach, Coach Cigneschi, Coach

00:37:35.239 --> 00:37:41.539
Sig. Seeing my ability, even though I was a smaller

00:37:41.539 --> 00:37:45.199
kid, I was probably at that time 120, 130, 130

00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:51.039
pounds, to see the potential in me to do what

00:37:51.039 --> 00:37:54.179
I had to do. And I wasn't a starter at all. I

00:37:54.179 --> 00:37:56.159
wasn't the first guy. I rode the bench a lot,

00:37:56.320 --> 00:37:59.699
but I put in a lot of time and effort. Coach

00:37:59.699 --> 00:38:02.420
Sigg gave me my nickname. So I know all the people

00:38:02.420 --> 00:38:03.980
that have known me for a while because they call

00:38:03.980 --> 00:38:06.880
me by my nickname, Mo. And that's a term of an

00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:10.519
endearment. So matter of fact, my best friend

00:38:10.519 --> 00:38:13.099
in high school, his name is Mark as well. We

00:38:13.099 --> 00:38:14.920
were born, he was born, today's his birthday.

00:38:14.940 --> 00:38:18.539
Happy birthday, Mark. But we actually, our moms

00:38:18.539 --> 00:38:20.920
actually shared a common room in the hospital

00:38:20.920 --> 00:38:23.199
the day we were born. So I've known him my whole

00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:26.909
life. And my oldest married his oldest. Oh, really?

00:38:27.090 --> 00:38:29.949
Yeah. So they've got three kids. So we share

00:38:29.949 --> 00:38:32.030
common grandchildren in that aspect as well.

00:38:32.489 --> 00:38:34.349
That's crazy. Happy birthday to you as well,

00:38:34.349 --> 00:38:38.230
by the way. Thank you. Thank you. So football

00:38:38.230 --> 00:38:40.610
was a huge part. And that's when I started weightlifting.

00:38:40.710 --> 00:38:43.670
And I played offensive line in high school. Our

00:38:43.670 --> 00:38:46.989
offensive line averaged right around 300 pounds.

00:38:47.880 --> 00:38:51.119
And I was probably 150, 170 at the time. But

00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:53.079
when I started lifting weights, I was lifting

00:38:53.079 --> 00:38:55.500
weights with the linemen. So my senior year in

00:38:55.500 --> 00:38:59.099
high school, I'm 150 pounds benching 315 pounds.

00:38:59.460 --> 00:39:01.320
Because I didn't know any better. I was in there

00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:04.579
working out with the linemen. And I really enjoyed

00:39:04.579 --> 00:39:06.840
the weightlifting side of things, the strength

00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:10.820
aspect, my heritage. I'm Polish on my dad's side

00:39:10.820 --> 00:39:14.360
and Syrian on my... Polish and Syrian on my dad's

00:39:14.360 --> 00:39:16.739
side and kind of German and the European side

00:39:16.739 --> 00:39:19.500
on my mom's side. But I definitely got that Eastern

00:39:19.500 --> 00:39:22.159
Bloc strongman strength. So it's a lot of good

00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:24.880
genetics is what it is. It's nothing that I do

00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:28.460
that's special. So football and wrestling and

00:39:28.460 --> 00:39:32.119
that kind of stuff. But I definitely learned

00:39:32.119 --> 00:39:34.820
the value of connection and working towards a

00:39:34.820 --> 00:39:36.760
common mission and a common goal, regardless

00:39:36.760 --> 00:39:41.059
of how we look or who we are. I always ask people

00:39:41.059 --> 00:39:43.519
this. I was a martial artist and I played field

00:39:43.519 --> 00:39:47.260
hockey. It was my sport, which I play football

00:39:47.260 --> 00:39:50.409
too, like real football with your feet. um but

00:39:50.409 --> 00:39:53.309
uh my brother's a football soccer player so my

00:39:53.309 --> 00:39:55.230
little brother is yeah but yeah hockey is actually

00:39:55.230 --> 00:39:56.969
it's funny i mean i always feel like i'm justifying

00:39:56.969 --> 00:39:59.070
now it's funny just looking at that like i'm

00:39:59.070 --> 00:40:01.150
obviously you know worried about it i have to

00:40:01.150 --> 00:40:02.889
explain what it is but yeah you basically run

00:40:02.889 --> 00:40:04.250
around with a stick and you get to hit other

00:40:04.250 --> 00:40:07.190
people but yeah um but that being said so you

00:40:07.190 --> 00:40:10.110
know i had team sports plural and then uh the

00:40:10.110 --> 00:40:12.469
martial arts it's just you on the on the mat

00:40:12.469 --> 00:40:15.940
and it's interesting kind of unpacking What each

00:40:15.940 --> 00:40:18.559
of those two experiences did as far as, you know,

00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:20.380
when you progress into the fire service. Oh,

00:40:20.380 --> 00:40:22.260
yeah. So when you reflect, what did you pull

00:40:22.260 --> 00:40:24.420
from each of those? So I wrestled as well. So

00:40:24.420 --> 00:40:27.519
I definitely get that that kind of dedication

00:40:27.519 --> 00:40:30.199
that it takes to have that individual accountability

00:40:30.199 --> 00:40:35.559
as well. And quite frankly, all too often in

00:40:35.559 --> 00:40:39.949
my life, I've felt. The big transformation that's

00:40:39.949 --> 00:40:43.070
foreshadowing down the road is my own self -worth.

00:40:43.230 --> 00:40:46.070
So the thing I've struggled through throughout

00:40:46.070 --> 00:40:48.670
my life is feeling less than. I'm feeling that

00:40:48.670 --> 00:40:51.050
imposter syndrome that so many of your guests

00:40:51.050 --> 00:40:54.070
have talked about. So many of my high performing

00:40:54.070 --> 00:40:57.409
like Delta and elite athlete guests. This is

00:40:57.409 --> 00:41:00.829
as crazy as all of us. Yeah. So just, and that's

00:41:00.829 --> 00:41:03.150
the thing, those individual sports highlight

00:41:03.150 --> 00:41:05.769
that personal accountability to be able, and

00:41:05.769 --> 00:41:07.769
I wasn't a good wrestler. I didn't enjoy it one

00:41:07.769 --> 00:41:10.710
bit, but it's the hard things is where we learn

00:41:10.710 --> 00:41:15.110
a lot about ourselves. Um, and, uh, And once

00:41:15.110 --> 00:41:17.150
again, another great coach that he's still alive,

00:41:17.210 --> 00:41:21.469
still around, Coach Wiley, saw in me what I couldn't

00:41:21.469 --> 00:41:24.130
see in myself and just continued to push me.

00:41:24.190 --> 00:41:26.530
And even though I wasn't your first one on the

00:41:26.530 --> 00:41:32.210
mat, he pushed me through to my limits, to realize

00:41:32.210 --> 00:41:35.449
that my own personal limits are my limits, that

00:41:35.449 --> 00:41:38.389
there's a much bigger world out there. When you

00:41:38.389 --> 00:41:41.070
reflect back now with this mature, very mature,

00:41:41.170 --> 00:41:45.989
52 years old, bloody hell. I'm 51, so I'm shitting

00:41:45.989 --> 00:41:49.769
you. But you reflect, though, and you unpack

00:41:49.769 --> 00:41:52.969
your early life. What was it? What was that dynamic

00:41:52.969 --> 00:41:55.269
that forged that low self -esteem, do you think?

00:41:56.449 --> 00:42:01.750
I was kind of a shy kid. And we're going to get

00:42:01.750 --> 00:42:04.389
deep in the mental health and in dark places

00:42:04.389 --> 00:42:07.349
side of things. Things I remember the most, back

00:42:07.349 --> 00:42:11.769
in the day, my... Second elementary school, because

00:42:11.769 --> 00:42:13.570
we moved when I was in kindergarten, my first

00:42:13.570 --> 00:42:16.690
year in the public education system. The school

00:42:16.690 --> 00:42:20.130
was about a mile away. And it was in a time where

00:42:20.130 --> 00:42:23.489
your kid could walk to school for a mile and

00:42:23.489 --> 00:42:26.289
be safe. And I remember going by myself. And

00:42:26.289 --> 00:42:28.889
back when I played soccer or football or whatever

00:42:28.889 --> 00:42:33.070
term you want to use, I remember one day after

00:42:33.070 --> 00:42:34.789
soccer practice, there were some big kids that

00:42:34.789 --> 00:42:38.559
started bullying me. I remember being in the

00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:40.280
gym and them taking one of those big gray trash

00:42:40.280 --> 00:42:42.239
cans like the ones we usually keep in the bay

00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:46.179
at the firehouse and putting that trash can over

00:42:46.179 --> 00:42:47.800
me and saying, don't get out of here or we're

00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:52.000
going to beat the tar out of you. Probably one

00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:54.900
of the earliest traumatic experiences that I

00:42:54.900 --> 00:43:06.239
can remember in my life. It's crazy to go there

00:43:06.239 --> 00:43:08.099
in my head because I don't think about it often.

00:43:08.199 --> 00:43:12.960
But to go back there, the things we are exposed

00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:16.980
to as children very often guides us how we are

00:43:16.980 --> 00:43:19.639
as adults. Very often when we're going through

00:43:19.639 --> 00:43:22.659
our hard times as adults, we revert back to those

00:43:22.659 --> 00:43:25.440
childish -like feelings when we're going through

00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:27.679
those dark times. And that's one specific incident.

00:43:30.829 --> 00:43:34.070
That I was able to address and overcome. And

00:43:34.070 --> 00:43:35.949
I don't think I've ever shared that with even

00:43:35.949 --> 00:43:38.230
my mom or anything else. Because you know how

00:43:38.230 --> 00:43:40.130
mama bears get when that kind of stuff happens.

00:43:40.289 --> 00:43:44.590
But it always feels like just I can't do anything

00:43:44.590 --> 00:43:47.849
right. Anything I put my time and effort to,

00:43:47.989 --> 00:43:49.750
it doesn't get recognized. And then two years

00:43:49.750 --> 00:43:52.309
down the road, somebody else picks up the ball,

00:43:52.449 --> 00:43:54.929
so to speak, and finishes the job. And they get

00:43:54.929 --> 00:43:57.769
all the praises and accolades for it. I've never

00:43:57.769 --> 00:44:00.500
been the guy in the spotlight. And I'm not comfortable

00:44:00.500 --> 00:44:03.940
in the spotlight. Do you think some of that also

00:44:03.940 --> 00:44:07.559
comes from being one of eight? One of ten. One

00:44:07.559 --> 00:44:09.699
of ten. Yeah, because you're a sister as well.

00:44:09.719 --> 00:44:14.079
Excuse me. Because when I think back to, I've

00:44:14.079 --> 00:44:16.420
said this, my childhood, we were pretty much

00:44:16.420 --> 00:44:19.619
feral. We ran around on the farm all day, every

00:44:19.619 --> 00:44:22.800
day. We came back covered in mud and kicked by

00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:26.400
a horse and whatever else happened. But when

00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:30.170
I reflect back, For example, I love my dad, but

00:44:30.170 --> 00:44:33.670
as far as being seen, there wasn't really that

00:44:33.670 --> 00:44:36.170
element. I won national championships in martial

00:44:36.170 --> 00:44:39.230
arts. He never watched me fight once, ever. If

00:44:39.230 --> 00:44:41.389
you were interested in something he was interested

00:44:41.389 --> 00:44:43.949
in, you stepped inside his circle, then yeah.

00:44:44.090 --> 00:44:46.329
But if you weren't... And so again, when I look

00:44:46.329 --> 00:44:48.989
back, it was the same thing. I was very meek

00:44:48.989 --> 00:44:50.510
when I was young. I was small too. I didn't have

00:44:50.510 --> 00:44:53.280
my growth spurt until I was 18. So I was still

00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:55.840
skinny and tiny when everyone else had beards

00:44:55.840 --> 00:45:00.139
and deep voices. I'm James Gearing. And even

00:45:00.139 --> 00:45:01.539
now, it's not like I'm a monster by any means,

00:45:01.619 --> 00:45:05.920
but I'll give you a perfect example. I was rolling

00:45:05.920 --> 00:45:08.719
not too long ago in jujitsu and I was talking

00:45:08.719 --> 00:45:13.090
to this guy and he probably was like 150. pounds

00:45:13.090 --> 00:45:15.690
you know 145 maybe and I was telling him yeah

00:45:15.690 --> 00:45:17.630
us small guys and I remember him looking at me

00:45:17.630 --> 00:45:19.650
like what are you talking about because I'm 180

00:45:19.650 --> 00:45:23.190
now and six foot but in my mind I'm still little

00:45:23.190 --> 00:45:26.530
James you know and so it's it's funny how we

00:45:26.530 --> 00:45:28.969
just cling on to that so hard and everything

00:45:28.969 --> 00:45:30.869
in front of you you look at your resume of what

00:45:30.869 --> 00:45:33.670
you've done right you're like oh yeah but it's

00:45:33.670 --> 00:45:35.869
always oh yeah but that's not yeah but look at

00:45:35.869 --> 00:45:38.110
this person they were in 9 -11 or they were you

00:45:38.110 --> 00:45:41.090
know they won the UFC heavyweight champion You

00:45:41.090 --> 00:45:43.309
know, you only just won this tippy -tappy taekwondo.

00:45:43.369 --> 00:45:45.469
Whatever it is, it's always kind of downplay

00:45:45.469 --> 00:45:47.469
in it. And recognizing it is good because you

00:45:47.469 --> 00:45:50.250
can kind of push away from that. But like you

00:45:50.250 --> 00:45:52.170
said, here we are sitting across from each other

00:45:52.170 --> 00:45:56.190
50 years later. These childhood things are still

00:45:56.190 --> 00:45:59.510
there. They still are ingrained in your mind.

00:45:59.670 --> 00:46:02.329
It's kind of like cracks in the foundation. Absolutely.

00:46:04.329 --> 00:46:07.590
So you've got that element. So anyway, I think

00:46:07.590 --> 00:46:09.949
there was a question at the very beginning. Did

00:46:09.949 --> 00:46:13.190
you feel like you were able to get enough attention

00:46:13.190 --> 00:46:16.809
being one of 10 in the family dynamic? I did.

00:46:16.909 --> 00:46:19.329
I mean, our house was always kind of like the

00:46:19.329 --> 00:46:21.730
landing place. We had probably more stray people

00:46:21.730 --> 00:46:26.389
in our house than we had stray pets. Very diverse.

00:46:26.530 --> 00:46:29.369
My parents growing up in the 60s and 70s and

00:46:29.369 --> 00:46:31.650
everything else. Yes, love was a huge part of

00:46:31.650 --> 00:46:36.369
our house and our culture. And with my recent...

00:46:37.729 --> 00:46:41.730
Love is the answer. As hippie as it sounds. 100%.

00:46:41.730 --> 00:46:45.789
I mean, isn't that what all the holy books talk

00:46:45.789 --> 00:46:49.590
about? Right. Love is the answer. Yeah. Actually,

00:46:49.670 --> 00:46:50.949
it's interesting. I shared, and you wouldn't

00:46:50.949 --> 00:46:52.150
have seen this because you're not on social media,

00:46:52.230 --> 00:46:55.670
but I shared a video and it was a bunch of Vietnam

00:46:55.670 --> 00:47:01.920
veterans at a bar talking about... And one of

00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:04.099
them had been hit by a mortar and it actually

00:47:04.099 --> 00:47:07.500
had a General Matt Motors logo on it. And he's

00:47:07.500 --> 00:47:08.840
saying, like, I thought they were supposed to

00:47:08.840 --> 00:47:10.739
make cars and I got blown up by one of their

00:47:10.739 --> 00:47:12.980
weapons. But the way they're talking about the

00:47:12.980 --> 00:47:15.760
industrial military complex and how they came

00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:18.320
home and no one cares, you could literally have

00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:21.579
put that in a bar in 2020 with a bunch of, you

00:47:21.579 --> 00:47:24.480
know, Iraq and Afghanistan veterans having the

00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:28.460
same exact conversation. And like you said, you

00:47:28.460 --> 00:47:30.900
know. Here we are repeating the same mistakes

00:47:30.900 --> 00:47:34.079
and allowing our boys and girls to be sent off

00:47:34.079 --> 00:47:35.639
to wars that maybe we should never have been

00:47:35.639 --> 00:47:38.940
in the first place. When really diplomacy, love,

00:47:39.019 --> 00:47:42.639
community is the answer. And now, you know, what

00:47:42.639 --> 00:47:44.920
we're seeing currently, I mean, just to be very

00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:46.940
clear, I can't stand any of the people that we've

00:47:46.940 --> 00:47:49.719
had in the helm of this country recently. So

00:47:49.719 --> 00:47:52.679
this is apolitical. But here we are again, pushing

00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:55.280
buttons and poking bears. And the people doing

00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:56.500
that, they're not the ones that are going to

00:47:56.500 --> 00:47:58.559
pay for it. It's our children, again, they're

00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:00.460
going to come back in caskets draped in our flags.

00:48:00.619 --> 00:48:03.639
Right. So to go back to your question, no, not

00:48:03.639 --> 00:48:06.300
intentionally. I don't think that I felt like

00:48:06.300 --> 00:48:08.940
I had to keep up with anybody in my own household.

00:48:09.360 --> 00:48:12.559
Everybody was loved. Being from such a big family,

00:48:12.699 --> 00:48:16.099
there's a top five, the five oldest have pretty

00:48:16.099 --> 00:48:19.329
good relationships with each other. My baby sister

00:48:19.329 --> 00:48:21.530
is 18 years difference than me. So the year I

00:48:21.530 --> 00:48:23.809
graduated, she was born. So there's connections

00:48:23.809 --> 00:48:25.909
and family friends that I have no clue who they

00:48:25.909 --> 00:48:28.889
are because I had already left the nest and continued

00:48:28.889 --> 00:48:30.769
on my journey while that stuff was still kind

00:48:30.769 --> 00:48:33.570
of happening. What were you dreaming of becoming

00:48:33.570 --> 00:48:36.550
when you were in the school age? I don't know

00:48:36.550 --> 00:48:38.250
that I had any dreams. I wasn't that guy that

00:48:38.250 --> 00:48:40.190
always, that kid that wanted to see a firefighter.

00:48:40.210 --> 00:48:46.199
I wasn't enamored by fire trucks. I was an inquisitive

00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:48.260
kid. I like to take things apart, not necessarily

00:48:48.260 --> 00:48:50.679
put them back together, but I like to take things

00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:55.650
apart and see how they work. Fast forward in

00:48:55.650 --> 00:48:57.329
a little bit, I went and did some missionary

00:48:57.329 --> 00:48:59.909
work in South America. And while I was doing

00:48:59.909 --> 00:49:01.789
that, I came back. I was like, what do I want

00:49:01.789 --> 00:49:03.590
to do when I get back? And I took an EMT class.

00:49:03.889 --> 00:49:06.769
And that's kind of what started my journey into

00:49:06.769 --> 00:49:09.409
the fire career. But I remember taking anatomy

00:49:09.409 --> 00:49:12.750
and physiology. And gross anatomy was probably

00:49:12.750 --> 00:49:14.809
one of my favorite classes, as morbid as it sounds.

00:49:14.969 --> 00:49:17.369
But to pop the hood on the human body and to

00:49:17.369 --> 00:49:19.889
see the actual physical organs and how they work

00:49:19.889 --> 00:49:21.750
and where they're at and that kind of stuff was

00:49:21.750 --> 00:49:25.440
very intriguing to me. So as far as wanting to

00:49:25.440 --> 00:49:27.780
be something, I don't think I had that much of

00:49:27.780 --> 00:49:29.780
a vision or forethought to say, this is what

00:49:29.780 --> 00:49:32.219
I want to be when I grow up. When you reflect

00:49:32.219 --> 00:49:34.300
on your time in South America, because I love

00:49:34.300 --> 00:49:37.400
this. I think there's a, I think it's Mark Twain

00:49:37.400 --> 00:49:39.599
quote, and I'm paraphrasing, but basically the

00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:42.519
enemy of prejudice is travel. And it's so true.

00:49:42.599 --> 00:49:44.500
You think about, you know, what we talk about

00:49:44.500 --> 00:49:45.960
other countries because they didn't join us in

00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:48.059
a war or, you know, whatever it is. And then

00:49:48.059 --> 00:49:49.739
people go there and they're like, oh, oh, they're

00:49:49.739 --> 00:49:53.420
actually quite nice. So when you reflect back,

00:49:53.639 --> 00:49:56.320
what were the things that really were endearing

00:49:56.320 --> 00:49:58.400
about that experience? And then maybe what were

00:49:58.400 --> 00:49:59.800
some of the things that weren't so good that

00:49:59.800 --> 00:50:04.900
you witnessed? So once again, I was born and

00:50:04.900 --> 00:50:08.300
raised in Kalamazoo. So my first trip on an airplane

00:50:08.300 --> 00:50:10.619
was to fly out to Utah to go to the training

00:50:10.619 --> 00:50:14.380
center before I flew to Chile to go do my missionary

00:50:14.380 --> 00:50:16.539
work for two years. And it's something that was

00:50:16.539 --> 00:50:20.039
through my church at the time. That's just something

00:50:20.039 --> 00:50:22.559
you did when you became that age, an earmark.

00:50:22.780 --> 00:50:28.260
And it's really one of those things that solidified

00:50:28.260 --> 00:50:32.300
my service aspect of my life, but also gave me

00:50:32.300 --> 00:50:34.039
all the tools and everything that I need to be

00:50:34.039 --> 00:50:36.739
a successful human being, to be able to connect

00:50:36.739 --> 00:50:39.699
with people without the distractions of the news

00:50:39.699 --> 00:50:43.619
or this or that. While you're there, you're essentially

00:50:43.619 --> 00:50:46.780
selling your earthly possessions and going to

00:50:46.780 --> 00:50:50.019
be fishers of men. with Jesus. And faith is a

00:50:50.019 --> 00:50:52.860
huge part of who I am. I understand there's people

00:50:52.860 --> 00:50:56.179
that struggle with faith. I'm a very spiritual

00:50:56.179 --> 00:50:58.940
person and connected person. And it provided

00:50:58.940 --> 00:51:01.519
me that opportunity to do that without any distractions.

00:51:02.659 --> 00:51:06.579
I recently started reading the book, The Gulag

00:51:06.579 --> 00:51:10.239
Archipelago. And I'm going to share a quote since

00:51:10.239 --> 00:51:14.289
you... Open the quote door. Let's do it. It says

00:51:14.289 --> 00:51:16.590
the intellectual is not defined by professional

00:51:16.590 --> 00:51:20.269
pursuit and type of occupation, nor are good

00:51:20.269 --> 00:51:22.630
upbringing and a good family enough in themselves

00:51:22.630 --> 00:51:26.210
to produce an intellectual. An intellectual is

00:51:26.210 --> 00:51:29.349
a person whose interest and occupation with the

00:51:29.349 --> 00:51:32.829
spiritual side of life are insistent and constant

00:51:32.829 --> 00:51:36.409
and not forced by external circumstances, even

00:51:36.409 --> 00:51:41.070
flying in the face of them. It's who we are as

00:51:41.070 --> 00:51:43.329
human beings. It's not the things that we learn

00:51:43.329 --> 00:51:45.170
and the certificates that we have. It's those

00:51:45.170 --> 00:51:47.929
life experiences that make us who we are. And

00:51:47.929 --> 00:51:50.309
to be able to meet people in their own homes,

00:51:50.329 --> 00:51:53.010
much like we're doing here, to bring the gospel

00:51:53.010 --> 00:51:54.929
of Jesus Christ to them in their own homes, to

00:51:54.929 --> 00:51:57.369
bring it to them in their own language, which

00:51:57.369 --> 00:52:00.510
is a powerful tool to me to have Spanish in my

00:52:00.510 --> 00:52:03.789
toolbox, to be able to speak Spanish. We run

00:52:03.789 --> 00:52:05.610
a lot of calls on that people. And it's amazing

00:52:05.610 --> 00:52:08.110
to me to see that somebody in an emergency situation.

00:52:08.940 --> 00:52:11.639
The minute I start speaking their language, even

00:52:11.639 --> 00:52:14.139
though they're in a foreign land, the walls are

00:52:14.139 --> 00:52:18.400
dropped immediately. And that connection is there.

00:52:18.460 --> 00:52:20.599
And I've often been told that my Spanish sounds

00:52:20.599 --> 00:52:22.320
like a native speaker. It doesn't sound like

00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:28.860
a gringo speaking Spanish. And Chile, South America,

00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:33.559
the way the people embraced me really showed

00:52:33.559 --> 00:52:36.320
to me that it doesn't matter what kind of house

00:52:36.320 --> 00:52:38.860
you're living in or where you're at. As long

00:52:38.860 --> 00:52:41.019
as you're giving that love piece, that's all

00:52:41.019 --> 00:52:42.699
that matters. You have everything that you need.

00:52:44.420 --> 00:52:47.239
I had some phenomenal, absolute phenomenal experiences

00:52:47.239 --> 00:52:50.679
in South America, but I've also had some traumatic

00:52:50.679 --> 00:52:54.300
ones as well. I mean, yes, I was loved by the

00:52:54.300 --> 00:52:57.780
people there, but there are people that saw me

00:52:57.780 --> 00:53:01.360
as an American there. I mean, up until 1973.

00:53:02.409 --> 00:53:04.449
Chile was a dictatorship. There's been all kinds

00:53:04.449 --> 00:53:06.489
of Nazi connections and everything with the mountains

00:53:06.489 --> 00:53:08.670
of Chile and everything else. So there was a

00:53:08.670 --> 00:53:12.190
time of civil unrest in that country. So they

00:53:12.190 --> 00:53:15.409
associated me with the American ideology, not

00:53:15.409 --> 00:53:18.610
for who I was. And that's my biggest struggle

00:53:18.610 --> 00:53:21.650
in life. I'm Mark, regardless of what religion

00:53:21.650 --> 00:53:26.409
I am or that I wear the uniform of a firefighter

00:53:26.409 --> 00:53:29.050
doesn't define who I am as a as a person. Yes,

00:53:29.070 --> 00:53:30.909
it's a piece of me, but it doesn't define me.

00:53:31.639 --> 00:53:34.659
And due to that, seeing us as Americans, there

00:53:34.659 --> 00:53:36.320
was a time when we were having a meeting in one

00:53:36.320 --> 00:53:38.940
of the churches and the doorbell rang because

00:53:38.940 --> 00:53:41.500
in South America, there's fences around the churches

00:53:41.500 --> 00:53:44.079
to kind of protect them. And some of the other

00:53:44.079 --> 00:53:46.460
missionaries went to answer the gate and didn't

00:53:46.460 --> 00:53:48.420
come back. Then all of a sudden, next thing I

00:53:48.420 --> 00:53:51.780
know, there's a bunch of armed, like with automatic

00:53:51.780 --> 00:53:53.760
weapons, guys coming in with their faces covered,

00:53:53.920 --> 00:53:55.659
pointing weapons at us and threatening to kill

00:53:55.659 --> 00:54:02.250
us. And just for who we were. And for some reason,

00:54:02.269 --> 00:54:04.070
they fired a couple shots and everything didn't

00:54:04.070 --> 00:54:08.469
kill anybody. But at some point, they made the

00:54:08.469 --> 00:54:10.190
decision to release us. And as we're running

00:54:10.190 --> 00:54:13.010
out on the tile floors, the terrazzo floors,

00:54:13.110 --> 00:54:15.610
I remember the smell of gasoline slipping on

00:54:15.610 --> 00:54:19.110
the slippery floor. They poured a bunch of gas

00:54:19.110 --> 00:54:20.869
on it and they lit it on fire. So they were going

00:54:20.869 --> 00:54:22.809
to leave us in there and light the place on fire

00:54:22.809 --> 00:54:24.949
and kill us. But for some reason, last minute

00:54:24.949 --> 00:54:31.019
decision, we were able to get out. That's crazy.

00:54:31.320 --> 00:54:34.340
And again, you know, there you are in a place

00:54:34.340 --> 00:54:36.280
that's supposed to be about kindness, compassion,

00:54:36.380 --> 00:54:38.619
community. And then you have that, like we said,

00:54:38.659 --> 00:54:40.539
that tyranny, that nasty side that's allowed

00:54:40.539 --> 00:54:43.400
to rise up. And this is what's so maddening is,

00:54:43.460 --> 00:54:45.460
and I say this all the time, do you think that

00:54:45.460 --> 00:54:47.219
most Russians were like, yeah, you know what

00:54:47.219 --> 00:54:48.860
I want to do today is go into another country

00:54:48.860 --> 00:54:51.610
and bomb men, women, and children? Of course

00:54:51.610 --> 00:54:55.010
not. Do most Chileans feel that way about, you

00:54:55.010 --> 00:54:57.289
know, no. Now, if they feel like, you know, maybe

00:54:57.289 --> 00:55:00.010
they're being occupied or if a religion is being

00:55:00.010 --> 00:55:01.570
forced on them or something, there might be more

00:55:01.570 --> 00:55:05.110
pushback. But it doesn't matter where you are

00:55:05.110 --> 00:55:07.989
on the planet. If you look at the holy books

00:55:07.989 --> 00:55:09.849
that have really survived all this time at the

00:55:09.849 --> 00:55:13.369
core, it's the kindness, compassion, love thing

00:55:13.369 --> 00:55:17.820
that has survived. People kind of pick up minutiae

00:55:17.820 --> 00:55:20.420
like, oh yeah, but not the gays, whatever their

00:55:20.420 --> 00:55:22.599
kind of prejudice that they found between the

00:55:22.599 --> 00:55:25.139
lines. But no, no, just take it down to just

00:55:25.139 --> 00:55:27.699
the bare bones. What are these books telling

00:55:27.699 --> 00:55:31.679
us? Don't kill each other. Don't carry that hate.

00:55:32.199 --> 00:55:36.639
That's done nothing in the year 200, 400, 1100.

00:55:36.820 --> 00:55:39.119
All we've seen is pain and misery and no one

00:55:39.119 --> 00:55:41.679
ever wins except the person in the castle. And

00:55:41.679 --> 00:55:43.280
that's what they're trying to tell us. And here

00:55:43.280 --> 00:55:47.179
we are now in 2025. And, you know, I did a post

00:55:47.179 --> 00:55:49.900
this morning because I truly believe this. I

00:55:49.900 --> 00:55:52.360
think the evolution of man is kindness and compassion.

00:55:52.420 --> 00:55:55.039
I think the holy books and the other, you know,

00:55:55.039 --> 00:55:58.340
ancient wisdom that we've been able to carry

00:55:58.340 --> 00:56:01.940
through, you know, writing especially, has allowed

00:56:01.940 --> 00:56:06.360
us to kind of metamorph. metamorphosize would

00:56:06.360 --> 00:56:10.039
that be right morph into more kind compassionate

00:56:10.039 --> 00:56:12.019
human beings and you look at old testament versus

00:56:12.019 --> 00:56:14.840
new testament you look at the dark ages and medieval

00:56:14.840 --> 00:56:18.159
torture and the witch trials versus to you know

00:56:18.159 --> 00:56:21.639
how we are today and there's so many lessons

00:56:21.639 --> 00:56:24.710
in that but if we refuse to learn the lessons,

00:56:24.869 --> 00:56:28.489
history will repeat itself. Syria, Gaza, wherever

00:56:28.489 --> 00:56:31.590
it is, Northern Ireland, if hate is allowed to

00:56:31.590 --> 00:56:33.489
be perpetrated, and don't get me wrong, there

00:56:33.489 --> 00:56:35.489
are origin stories of all those things. I totally

00:56:35.489 --> 00:56:38.809
understand that. But until the generation says,

00:56:38.989 --> 00:56:41.550
I'm tired of these dominoes falling, I don't

00:56:41.550 --> 00:56:44.809
want my kids to be brought up to hate someone

00:56:44.809 --> 00:56:46.710
because they're from this country or this religion

00:56:46.710 --> 00:56:50.869
or whatever, until we rise up as a species, as

00:56:50.869 --> 00:56:53.400
humanity. It's going to keep happening again.

00:56:53.559 --> 00:56:56.480
And it's, you know, the guys under the mask under

00:56:56.480 --> 00:56:58.639
different times, you probably would have had

00:56:58.639 --> 00:57:01.380
a blast over a beer or a coffee. And instead,

00:57:01.579 --> 00:57:03.159
there you are in that situation where they're

00:57:03.159 --> 00:57:06.480
about to shoot you and burn you. 100%. And to

00:57:06.480 --> 00:57:08.699
figure out where we're going, we have to know

00:57:08.699 --> 00:57:11.719
where we came from. And that's really what it

00:57:11.719 --> 00:57:14.000
boils down to is that power of connectivity.

00:57:14.340 --> 00:57:16.840
That's the authenticity and connectivity. That's

00:57:16.840 --> 00:57:19.630
where it's at. Absolutely. Well, we're kind of

00:57:19.630 --> 00:57:21.829
jumping ahead, but while we're on the faith subject,

00:57:22.010 --> 00:57:24.550
we were talking before we hit record. Talk to

00:57:24.550 --> 00:57:28.130
me about the kind of evolution of your journey,

00:57:28.329 --> 00:57:34.349
faith versus rigid religion. Oh, wow. I don't

00:57:34.349 --> 00:57:36.010
think there's enough time in the podcast. This

00:57:36.010 --> 00:57:41.289
could be a docu -series. Once again, I grew up,

00:57:41.329 --> 00:57:46.519
so the same religion my whole life. instilled

00:57:46.519 --> 00:57:49.539
in me all those very positive values and great

00:57:49.539 --> 00:57:53.579
things that help make me who I am. And I mentioned

00:57:53.579 --> 00:57:55.860
it earlier, it doesn't define who I am, but it's

00:57:55.860 --> 00:57:58.539
a huge piece of who I am and has provided me

00:57:58.539 --> 00:58:03.179
with a lot of situations with it. So there came

00:58:03.179 --> 00:58:06.320
a point, and it's hard to put a date or a time

00:58:06.320 --> 00:58:10.420
on it. It's just, I'm very connected. I love

00:58:10.420 --> 00:58:13.099
nature, as I'm sure you do as well. I love hiking.

00:58:13.219 --> 00:58:16.280
I love kayaking. I love just being out. Nature

00:58:16.280 --> 00:58:18.780
is my church. That's where I feel God the most,

00:58:18.900 --> 00:58:23.860
is feel small just to see a butterfly fluttering

00:58:23.860 --> 00:58:27.420
around and understand where it came from or whatever

00:58:27.420 --> 00:58:29.320
birds. I know there's been plenty of shifts where

00:58:29.320 --> 00:58:31.679
I've got to work early and I've sat on the front

00:58:31.679 --> 00:58:34.980
pad of the firehouse and listened to the birds

00:58:34.980 --> 00:58:38.360
in the morning. In my rocking chair, people give

00:58:38.360 --> 00:58:41.239
me a hard time about my rocking chair. I guess

00:58:41.239 --> 00:58:45.199
it's the 52 years old, I guess. But connection

00:58:45.199 --> 00:58:47.619
with nature and music, and there's so many powerful

00:58:47.619 --> 00:58:52.019
things that impact my soul that I came to a point

00:58:52.019 --> 00:58:55.300
where I was, I don't want to be confined by the

00:58:55.300 --> 00:59:01.679
walls of a church or the SOPs or SOGs or articles

00:59:01.679 --> 00:59:04.300
or whatever guidelines for the way I'm supposed

00:59:04.300 --> 00:59:08.119
to worship that are created by man. And I know

00:59:08.119 --> 00:59:10.630
there's... Prophets out there and people that

00:59:10.630 --> 00:59:12.349
have those connections that are the mouthpiece

00:59:12.349 --> 00:59:16.210
of God on this earth. I understand that. But

00:59:16.210 --> 00:59:19.769
there's the infallibility of human beings as

00:59:19.769 --> 00:59:24.030
well. That at some point when you're in charge

00:59:24.030 --> 00:59:27.929
of something, you get that bravado, that authoritative

00:59:27.929 --> 00:59:31.989
type aspect that isn't necessarily God's will

00:59:31.989 --> 00:59:36.489
all the time. So I kind of took a step away from

00:59:36.489 --> 00:59:39.630
the physical side of church to work on my own

00:59:39.630 --> 00:59:42.190
personal relationship with my Savior, Jesus Christ,

00:59:42.230 --> 00:59:45.510
without borders. There's a saying out there,

00:59:45.550 --> 00:59:50.610
there's no atheist in foxholes. I've got a picture

00:59:50.610 --> 00:59:52.989
my wife gifted me, a painting of Christ reaching

00:59:52.989 --> 00:59:55.369
down deep into the water to pull the drowning

00:59:55.369 --> 00:59:57.409
person out. So you see Christ kind of blurry

00:59:57.409 --> 01:00:00.210
with his hand going down into the water. to pull

01:00:00.210 --> 01:00:02.210
those people out of the depths. And I felt like

01:00:02.210 --> 01:00:04.610
Peter so many times where I've had the faith

01:00:04.610 --> 01:00:06.630
to step out of the boat and walk towards God

01:00:06.630 --> 01:00:09.469
and walk on water. But even though he's standing

01:00:09.469 --> 01:00:12.469
there right in front of me, that doubt starts

01:00:12.469 --> 01:00:15.230
sinking in. Even though the vision's clear, I've

01:00:15.230 --> 01:00:19.150
got it inked on my skin. Sometimes I feel like

01:00:19.150 --> 01:00:20.909
the hand that's under the water drowning. Sometimes

01:00:20.909 --> 01:00:23.070
I feel like the hand that's helping pull people

01:00:23.070 --> 01:00:25.769
out. And there's a lot of empathy that comes

01:00:25.769 --> 01:00:30.809
with that and understanding that. Christ, just

01:00:30.809 --> 01:00:32.869
like us, and we talked about us as children,

01:00:33.050 --> 01:00:37.130
was meek and mild and walked around. The meek

01:00:37.130 --> 01:00:39.210
shall inherit the earth. It doesn't mean that

01:00:39.210 --> 01:00:42.230
he was timid, that he let people beat him down.

01:00:42.429 --> 01:00:44.690
I mean, there's plenty of instances of when he

01:00:44.690 --> 01:00:46.469
threw the money changers out of the temple because

01:00:46.469 --> 01:00:49.409
they weren't doing what was right. And again,

01:00:49.590 --> 01:00:52.860
the temple. You know, this kind of worshipping

01:00:52.860 --> 01:00:57.460
and financially benefiting from religion versus

01:00:57.460 --> 01:00:59.840
being out there. And I just started to interrupt.

01:00:59.960 --> 01:01:02.119
No, not at all. One thing that always irks me

01:01:02.119 --> 01:01:04.880
is you see these people that we know, you know,

01:01:04.880 --> 01:01:07.480
it's a very Christian country. I mean, there

01:01:07.480 --> 01:01:09.820
are diverse religions, but we have a lot of Christians

01:01:09.820 --> 01:01:12.369
here. But then you see how people treat each

01:01:12.369 --> 01:01:14.150
other. You see how people are on the roads. And

01:01:14.150 --> 01:01:15.789
it's like, well, you know, you see people say,

01:01:15.869 --> 01:01:17.969
well, Narcan's a waste of money on addicts or

01:01:17.969 --> 01:01:19.610
we need to shoo these homeless to a different

01:01:19.610 --> 01:01:22.969
town. So what would Jesus do? What would Buddha

01:01:22.969 --> 01:01:24.750
do? What would Krishna do? What would all these,

01:01:24.750 --> 01:01:28.389
you know, prophets, all these visions of goodness

01:01:28.389 --> 01:01:31.750
actually do if they were out there? Right. You

01:01:31.750 --> 01:01:33.250
know, would they roll their eyes because you

01:01:33.250 --> 01:01:35.449
got a back to back to bed call? Or would they

01:01:35.449 --> 01:01:37.150
go, OK, great. It's an opportunity to do some

01:01:37.150 --> 01:01:39.030
good in the world. You're not going to be on

01:01:39.030 --> 01:01:40.869
the front of Firehouse magazine on this one,

01:01:40.949 --> 01:01:43.449
but you're doing something good. And that's where

01:01:43.449 --> 01:01:45.449
I have a problem. And again, I've got no skin

01:01:45.449 --> 01:01:47.829
in the game. You do you. But for me personally,

01:01:47.909 --> 01:01:50.429
like you, where I see nature, I see goodness.

01:01:50.489 --> 01:01:52.909
I think really what Jesus and all these other

01:01:52.909 --> 01:01:56.030
ones represent is the collective goodness in

01:01:56.030 --> 01:01:58.550
humanity. And this is a beacon. This is an example

01:01:58.550 --> 01:02:00.969
of a really good person. And obviously you can

01:02:00.969 --> 01:02:03.409
go deeper and they were sent here for a reason

01:02:03.409 --> 01:02:04.829
and all that kind of thing. But ultimately...

01:02:05.760 --> 01:02:07.900
to me, they represent whether it's, you know,

01:02:07.920 --> 01:02:10.380
Gandhi or, you know, whoever the other people

01:02:10.380 --> 01:02:12.539
that we've kind of seen, you know, these real

01:02:12.539 --> 01:02:15.619
beacons of kindness and compassion. It's a reminder,

01:02:15.679 --> 01:02:18.260
like, that's who you're supposed to be. You know,

01:02:18.260 --> 01:02:20.340
I really believe that people are inherently good.

01:02:20.400 --> 01:02:23.039
You go to a preschool, how many like fistfights

01:02:23.039 --> 01:02:25.800
and gangs do you see in a kindergarten? You see

01:02:25.800 --> 01:02:27.679
a bunch of kids of all colors and creeds laughing

01:02:27.679 --> 01:02:30.500
and chasing a ball around. That's who we're supposed

01:02:30.500 --> 01:02:32.099
to be, in my opinion. So sorry, I didn't mean

01:02:32.099 --> 01:02:34.619
to jump in. No, not at all. And that's, it's

01:02:34.619 --> 01:02:38.099
not about, In the fire service, it's not about

01:02:38.099 --> 01:02:41.840
the calls. Yes, we have those sentinel calls

01:02:41.840 --> 01:02:44.099
that we're going to carry with us. And Dina Ali

01:02:44.099 --> 01:02:46.340
talks about it all the time. It's not the calls

01:02:46.340 --> 01:02:49.179
that do it. I truly think that it's that moral

01:02:49.179 --> 01:02:54.340
injury piece. Yes. That really affects us that

01:02:54.340 --> 01:02:59.539
we carry with us. Because we can attribute it,

01:02:59.599 --> 01:03:02.000
a call we ran or something with that call we

01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:04.199
ran. to our personal life or things that are

01:03:04.199 --> 01:03:08.199
going on in our personal life or our department.

01:03:08.219 --> 01:03:10.300
We're blessed. We we've got great top of the

01:03:10.300 --> 01:03:12.820
line equipment, top of the time line apparatus.

01:03:12.900 --> 01:03:14.780
And we're very progressive when it comes to the

01:03:14.780 --> 01:03:18.380
medical side of things. But say for example,

01:03:18.380 --> 01:03:22.320
we ran a pediatric arrest and the ambulance carries

01:03:22.320 --> 01:03:25.460
different size eye gels than what we carry. And

01:03:25.460 --> 01:03:28.300
the other paramedic on my truck asked for their

01:03:28.300 --> 01:03:30.400
smallest eye gel. Well, it wasn't a pediatric

01:03:30.400 --> 01:03:33.679
one. And on that call, we used that one. I mean,

01:03:33.739 --> 01:03:35.840
it was all good in the end. It's not like it

01:03:35.840 --> 01:03:38.619
hampered the care of the patient, but just those

01:03:38.619 --> 01:03:40.880
little kind of things like, oh, that one little

01:03:40.880 --> 01:03:42.960
thing didn't go right. Even though all these

01:03:42.960 --> 01:03:45.099
other things went right, we focus on that negative

01:03:45.099 --> 01:03:47.780
side of things. And I think as first responders

01:03:47.780 --> 01:03:49.820
and firefighters, we carry that with us because

01:03:49.820 --> 01:03:53.659
all of these SOPs and SOGs and hundreds and hundreds

01:03:53.659 --> 01:03:55.579
of pages of things that we're supposed to follow

01:03:55.579 --> 01:03:57.980
and have memorized in our head, and then we mess

01:03:57.980 --> 01:04:00.349
up once. We're held accountable for it. And you're

01:04:00.349 --> 01:04:02.150
sleep deprived too, which doesn't set you up

01:04:02.150 --> 01:04:04.610
for remembering in the first place. Yeah. So,

01:04:04.610 --> 01:04:07.190
and that ties back into the spiritual side of

01:04:07.190 --> 01:04:11.829
things because we can't separate our mind and

01:04:11.829 --> 01:04:14.670
our body and our soul. We're a holistic human

01:04:14.670 --> 01:04:17.190
being. So unless we're focusing on all of those

01:04:17.190 --> 01:04:21.489
things, the spiritual side of us isn't in harmony,

01:04:21.590 --> 01:04:25.670
is not in coherence. Absolutely. I think that

01:04:25.670 --> 01:04:27.210
when someone said this to me recently, and I,

01:04:27.269 --> 01:04:30.269
I, realize this is what i do anyway but they

01:04:30.269 --> 01:04:33.210
were like who says that you have to do everything

01:04:33.210 --> 01:04:36.369
the way that one religion says why can't you

01:04:36.369 --> 01:04:38.010
take well i like this from buddhism and i like

01:04:38.010 --> 01:04:40.150
this from you know islam or whatever the things

01:04:40.150 --> 01:04:44.469
are like we are a complete unique you know um

01:04:44.469 --> 01:04:47.690
smorgasbord of every event that's happened to

01:04:47.690 --> 01:04:50.090
us and our dna and you know our environment all

01:04:50.090 --> 01:04:51.989
these other things and it's the same even with

01:04:51.989 --> 01:04:54.570
healing you know with mental health You know

01:04:54.570 --> 01:04:55.969
that you're talking to the wrong person when

01:04:55.969 --> 01:04:58.070
they tell you that their therapy works for everyone.

01:04:58.730 --> 01:05:00.769
Bullshit. Nothing works for everyone. No nutrition

01:05:00.769 --> 01:05:02.570
plan works for everyone. No strength and conditioning

01:05:02.570 --> 01:05:05.250
plan works for everyone. 100%. Everyone has their

01:05:05.250 --> 01:05:07.449
own individual toolbox. We're a science experiment.

01:05:07.690 --> 01:05:09.769
Yeah. So why is it any different with faith?

01:05:09.989 --> 01:05:11.690
You know, you've had a certain upbringing. I

01:05:11.690 --> 01:05:14.070
grew up in the, you know, not in, being exposed

01:05:14.070 --> 01:05:16.449
to the Church of England. Right. You know, there

01:05:16.449 --> 01:05:18.130
were parts of it, like I said, you know, the

01:05:18.130 --> 01:05:20.030
kindness, compassion community that I saw, the

01:05:20.030 --> 01:05:21.869
kindness, compassion community that I saw in

01:05:21.869 --> 01:05:25.170
England. As a young boy that was infused in our

01:05:25.170 --> 01:05:27.889
television programs, beautiful. But then, you

01:05:27.889 --> 01:05:29.469
know, as I got older and they're like, you know,

01:05:29.489 --> 01:05:32.510
oh, God loves everyone except these people. And

01:05:32.510 --> 01:05:34.010
these people aren't going to heaven because they

01:05:34.010 --> 01:05:36.409
don't believe what we believe. That's what I'm

01:05:36.409 --> 01:05:38.670
like, I'm going to discard that, as Bruce Lee

01:05:38.670 --> 01:05:41.469
said, absorb what is useful. I'm going to keep

01:05:41.469 --> 01:05:43.530
all the cool, you know, the kindness stuff, definitely.

01:05:43.809 --> 01:05:45.789
And love thy neighbor and all that. And, you

01:05:45.789 --> 01:05:49.550
know, thou shalt not kill. But where you're telling

01:05:49.550 --> 01:05:53.039
me that this is a sin. from the very children

01:05:53.039 --> 01:05:56.800
that in my opinion god made yeah it doesn't align

01:05:56.800 --> 01:05:59.199
with me sorry so that what is wrong with that

01:05:59.199 --> 01:06:01.320
what is like saying just carving off you know

01:06:01.320 --> 01:06:03.440
it's like a sculpture you know by the time you're

01:06:03.440 --> 01:06:05.820
done this is my faith this is james gearing's

01:06:05.820 --> 01:06:07.619
unique unique faith because it doesn't affect

01:06:07.619 --> 01:06:10.019
anyone else because it's me and god we're having

01:06:10.019 --> 01:06:12.800
a one -on -one conversation so your opinion of

01:06:12.800 --> 01:06:15.460
my faith shouldn't matter especially you know

01:06:15.460 --> 01:06:17.699
as long as it's not out there hurting people

01:06:17.699 --> 01:06:19.880
it's the opposite you're getting rid of all the

01:06:19.880 --> 01:06:22.059
hurt and keeping all the love kindness and compassion

01:06:22.059 --> 01:06:26.260
right you know that's that's why if you don't

01:06:26.260 --> 01:06:29.179
feel a hundred percent comfortable with wherever

01:06:29.179 --> 01:06:33.179
you've chosen to to pray right what's stopping

01:06:33.179 --> 01:06:35.320
you from changing it what's stopping you from

01:06:35.320 --> 01:06:38.519
curating it to fix you know what you think is

01:06:38.519 --> 01:06:41.760
the truly right path right as far as kindness

01:06:41.760 --> 01:06:44.420
and compassion not right escaping a lake of fire

01:06:44.420 --> 01:06:46.239
and a little dude with a pitchfork or whatever

01:06:46.239 --> 01:06:48.619
you you know might think but actually while you're

01:06:48.619 --> 01:06:52.579
living this now which one is aligning most clearly

01:06:52.579 --> 01:06:55.480
with the very things that all these prophets

01:06:55.480 --> 01:06:57.860
seem to be talking about kindness compassion

01:06:57.860 --> 01:07:00.840
community by their fruits you shall know them

01:07:02.839 --> 01:07:05.619
Absolutely. Yeah. Well, let's get to your journey

01:07:05.619 --> 01:07:08.719
into the fire service then. So you weren't dreaming

01:07:08.719 --> 01:07:10.780
of it when you were younger? I was not, no. How

01:07:10.780 --> 01:07:12.340
did you, you said about the EMT class. So kind

01:07:12.340 --> 01:07:15.440
of walk me through the front door and then let's

01:07:15.440 --> 01:07:17.639
also talk about like fitness standards, mental

01:07:17.639 --> 01:07:19.760
health conversations at the beginning of your

01:07:19.760 --> 01:07:21.960
career. Okay. So yeah, I came back from Chile,

01:07:22.059 --> 01:07:23.780
South America, two years on a mission, looked

01:07:23.780 --> 01:07:27.519
for something to do. Sign up for an EMT class.

01:07:27.739 --> 01:07:30.500
So I went to, at the time was Rick's College.

01:07:30.559 --> 01:07:34.119
It's BYU -Idaho now. So it's actually a private

01:07:34.119 --> 01:07:36.099
school that's associated with the religion I

01:07:36.099 --> 01:07:38.219
grew up in, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter

01:07:38.219 --> 01:07:40.380
-day Saints. And that was the absolute last thing

01:07:40.380 --> 01:07:42.760
that I wanted to do because you want to talk

01:07:42.760 --> 01:07:44.780
about laws and standards. Your hair has to be

01:07:44.780 --> 01:07:46.739
cut a certain way. You couldn't have facial hair.

01:07:46.840 --> 01:07:48.219
You couldn't do all this other kind of stuff,

01:07:48.320 --> 01:07:50.739
which I'd just done for two years as a missionary

01:07:50.739 --> 01:07:52.400
where I had to abide to all these standards.

01:07:54.339 --> 01:07:57.039
I'm 21 years old now. I want to let my hair down.

01:07:57.119 --> 01:07:59.639
I want to be free. I want to go appreciate things.

01:08:00.099 --> 01:08:02.380
But I made the decision to go out there and it

01:08:02.380 --> 01:08:03.920
really shaped my life because that's where I

01:08:03.920 --> 01:08:06.559
ended up ultimately meeting my wife and creating

01:08:06.559 --> 01:08:09.099
a family and everything else. But I signed up

01:08:09.099 --> 01:08:11.179
for this EMT class because I was like, that looks

01:08:11.179 --> 01:08:14.579
like something I could do. I don't want to sit

01:08:14.579 --> 01:08:16.420
behind a desk. I don't want to be in an office.

01:08:16.619 --> 01:08:20.020
And the paramedic program at the time was actually.

01:08:21.950 --> 01:08:24.189
Kind of on my radar when I was in EMT school

01:08:24.189 --> 01:08:27.449
because the way they formatted the program, if

01:08:27.449 --> 01:08:29.149
there was people in the paramedic side of things,

01:08:29.310 --> 01:08:31.289
they would be the lab proctors for the class

01:08:31.289 --> 01:08:34.090
the year or two behind them. So they would be

01:08:34.090 --> 01:08:35.810
doing the checkoff sheets, which was a great

01:08:35.810 --> 01:08:38.390
model because it set them up for success when

01:08:38.390 --> 01:08:40.329
it came time to take your national registry and

01:08:40.329 --> 01:08:42.329
that kind of stuff. Because you were used to

01:08:42.329 --> 01:08:44.329
the checkoff sheets and knew all the steps because

01:08:44.329 --> 01:08:48.069
you were checking off everybody else. So I went

01:08:48.069 --> 01:08:51.220
to EMT school, came home. After that semester,

01:08:51.279 --> 01:08:53.439
after I got my EMT, wasn't really working as

01:08:53.439 --> 01:08:56.060
an EMT, needed to get some money. So I worked

01:08:56.060 --> 01:09:01.380
for a private ambulance service. And at the time,

01:09:01.399 --> 01:09:02.960
because I didn't have my certifications, they

01:09:02.960 --> 01:09:06.979
put me on a convalescent wheelchair van. Unfortunately,

01:09:06.979 --> 01:09:13.140
that service also did body recoveries for the

01:09:13.140 --> 01:09:17.449
local agency. So here I am. Newly EMT, driving

01:09:17.449 --> 01:09:19.529
a wheelchair, banded by myself, waiting on my

01:09:19.529 --> 01:09:21.949
next take somebody to the doctor's office call.

01:09:22.090 --> 01:09:23.989
And they're like, hey, we don't have anybody

01:09:23.989 --> 01:09:26.449
available and we need you to swing by headquarters

01:09:26.449 --> 01:09:28.829
and pick up a body bag and go out to the lake.

01:09:29.529 --> 01:09:31.090
There's a body out there that needs to be picked

01:09:31.090 --> 01:09:35.029
up. So in Michigan on a hot summer day, my first

01:09:35.029 --> 01:09:40.250
exposure to a dead body. Somebody that had taken

01:09:40.250 --> 01:09:47.130
a rifle and taken their own life. Something I

01:09:47.130 --> 01:09:53.869
wasn't prepared for. I remember everything about

01:09:53.869 --> 01:09:56.270
that call, the smells, the feels, the picking

01:09:56.270 --> 01:09:58.029
up the eyeballs and the brains, making sure I

01:09:58.029 --> 01:10:00.170
didn't miss a body part on the beach. Everything

01:10:00.170 --> 01:10:02.350
made it back in the bag and then took it to the

01:10:02.350 --> 01:10:08.489
ME. Hour later, taking somebody to their doctor's

01:10:08.489 --> 01:10:10.649
appointment. And that was it. Nothing else thought

01:10:10.649 --> 01:10:15.100
about. did not deter me or defray me. I don't

01:10:15.100 --> 01:10:16.920
even think I knew how to process it at that point.

01:10:16.979 --> 01:10:18.960
It was just something that I had to do for work.

01:10:23.210 --> 01:10:26.250
That's my earliest exposure into the EMT world.

01:10:26.470 --> 01:10:29.090
And after that, I came back, decided to enroll

01:10:29.090 --> 01:10:30.970
in the paramedic program. And it was a pretty

01:10:30.970 --> 01:10:32.850
progressive program. It was out in Idaho, so

01:10:32.850 --> 01:10:34.989
it had all those nature parts to it as well.

01:10:35.130 --> 01:10:37.869
So we actually did, part of the program was winter

01:10:37.869 --> 01:10:40.550
camping or high angle rescues. We did a lot of

01:10:40.550 --> 01:10:44.550
search and rescue and water work. And for a paramedic

01:10:44.550 --> 01:10:46.710
program, every Thursday was lab days. So they

01:10:46.710 --> 01:10:49.229
actually had, they supplemented the local ambulance

01:10:49.229 --> 01:10:52.210
company and helped out. kind of volunteered to

01:10:52.210 --> 01:10:53.829
run on calls. So you'd be in the middle of the

01:10:53.829 --> 01:10:55.789
college class and your radio would go off and

01:10:55.789 --> 01:11:00.529
you'd get up and go respond to calls as part

01:11:00.529 --> 01:11:02.630
of the program. But it was one of those kind

01:11:02.630 --> 01:11:04.329
of isolated little groups, kind of like when

01:11:04.329 --> 01:11:06.750
you're in a team, you're focused on that team.

01:11:06.850 --> 01:11:09.470
So my college experience was in a little room,

01:11:09.590 --> 01:11:12.569
paramedic room above the gym at the Health and

01:11:12.569 --> 01:11:15.359
Sciences Center. So I didn't get to experience

01:11:15.359 --> 01:11:17.439
all that because there was so much time and energy

01:11:17.439 --> 01:11:19.439
into doing the clinical side of things and everything

01:11:19.439 --> 01:11:22.739
else. So my college exposure was to a very small

01:11:22.739 --> 01:11:24.539
group of people that were in the same paramedic

01:11:24.539 --> 01:11:29.220
program as me. And once again, I'm not a, I'm

01:11:29.220 --> 01:11:31.340
not an intellectual, real smart guy. Things don't

01:11:31.340 --> 01:11:34.180
come easy. Education type stuff is I didn't get

01:11:34.180 --> 01:11:36.140
good learning habits in high school and I was

01:11:36.140 --> 01:11:37.979
still an AB student just because I didn't need

01:11:37.979 --> 01:11:39.760
to study the stuff. If there was a term paper,

01:11:39.939 --> 01:11:41.939
I'd be doing it the night before having mom type

01:11:41.939 --> 01:11:44.319
it up on the typewriter. for me so I could turn

01:11:44.319 --> 01:11:47.800
it in the next day. And I couldn't get away with

01:11:47.800 --> 01:11:52.359
that as much in paramedic school. So in true

01:11:52.359 --> 01:11:54.779
firefighter, first responder form, the hands

01:11:54.779 --> 01:11:57.199
-on stuff, as long as I was learning it hands

01:11:57.199 --> 01:12:00.359
-on, I was great with it. But if it was reading

01:12:00.359 --> 01:12:03.319
it out of book, when it came time to take a test,

01:12:03.439 --> 01:12:06.310
I was not the best at it. I mean, looking at,

01:12:06.350 --> 01:12:09.170
I remember my first EKG cardiac class, looking

01:12:09.170 --> 01:12:11.710
at the strip and it was a bunch of squiggly lines

01:12:11.710 --> 01:12:17.689
till one day it just finally clicked. And that's

01:12:17.689 --> 01:12:19.670
kind of where paramedic school went and came

01:12:19.670 --> 01:12:23.869
home. And my wife that I met out at college was

01:12:23.869 --> 01:12:27.189
from the Atlanta area. My paramedic program did

01:12:27.189 --> 01:12:29.529
two internships to become a paramedic. You had

01:12:29.529 --> 01:12:32.659
to do. Your first ride -along internship was

01:12:32.659 --> 01:12:35.560
300 hours of ride -along. So my first exposure

01:12:35.560 --> 01:12:38.140
to riding along on an ambulance was downtown

01:12:38.140 --> 01:12:41.920
Atlanta on Grady Ambulance and everything that

01:12:41.920 --> 01:12:46.819
comes along with that. And that's where I really

01:12:46.819 --> 01:12:50.260
started focusing on that connecting. I mean,

01:12:50.260 --> 01:12:52.180
being the only white guy down in the hood in

01:12:52.180 --> 01:12:54.840
the middle of nowhere, walking into a crack house

01:12:54.840 --> 01:12:57.500
and stepping over bodies to get to the patient.

01:12:58.890 --> 01:13:01.689
And to watch the experienced EMTs and paramedics

01:13:01.689 --> 01:13:03.329
that were probably burned out at the time anyways,

01:13:03.470 --> 01:13:06.369
but there were precept and some spud from Idaho

01:13:06.369 --> 01:13:10.609
on a ride -along internship, let me handle the

01:13:10.609 --> 01:13:12.569
patient. And I was able to connect, even though

01:13:12.569 --> 01:13:15.789
it was a tooth pain on somebody that was cracked

01:13:15.789 --> 01:13:18.409
out of their mind, to be able to connect because

01:13:18.409 --> 01:13:20.250
he wouldn't connect to the people that were already

01:13:20.250 --> 01:13:22.850
burned out, but because I was showing that unjaded

01:13:22.850 --> 01:13:25.739
human side of things that I hadn't been. experienced

01:13:25.739 --> 01:13:27.840
the burnout yet. I was able to connect and get

01:13:27.840 --> 01:13:30.380
that patient to where they needed to go. And

01:13:30.380 --> 01:13:32.960
that's where I really started learning. And then,

01:13:32.960 --> 01:13:35.460
um, finished up the rest of my class on my final

01:13:35.460 --> 01:13:39.000
internship was 480 hours with DeKalb EMS, who

01:13:39.000 --> 01:13:41.180
at the time was kind of one of the premier services

01:13:41.180 --> 01:13:44.720
in it. And so I was working part -time in the

01:13:44.720 --> 01:13:46.760
ambulance as an EMT while I was doing my ride

01:13:46.760 --> 01:13:49.619
-alongs as a paramedic, how all too often it

01:13:49.619 --> 01:13:54.760
happens. So turning the The hours and hours away

01:13:54.760 --> 01:13:57.840
from home, I had a new baby at home and I was

01:13:57.840 --> 01:14:00.979
spending part time on doing my clinicals full

01:14:00.979 --> 01:14:04.180
time on an ambulance where the preceptor on the

01:14:04.180 --> 01:14:07.609
ambulance that I was doing interning at. trusted

01:14:07.609 --> 01:14:09.550
me more than her partner because her partner

01:14:09.550 --> 01:14:12.109
was a new partner. So I was given directions

01:14:12.109 --> 01:14:14.750
to the hospital or running codes and stuff. And

01:14:14.750 --> 01:14:16.789
she wouldn't even let her partner do that just

01:14:16.789 --> 01:14:19.090
due to the level of experience that I had as

01:14:19.090 --> 01:14:21.649
a paramedic. So, and the same thing, even as

01:14:21.649 --> 01:14:23.890
probably a statute of limitations has passed

01:14:23.890 --> 01:14:26.649
at this point, but I was employed as an EMT on

01:14:26.649 --> 01:14:28.750
the ambulance at the time, but my paramedic partners

01:14:28.750 --> 01:14:30.590
would let me ride in the back with calls that

01:14:30.590 --> 01:14:32.949
were ALS calls because I had the skillset. I

01:14:32.949 --> 01:14:35.329
just didn't have the, and it was great experience.

01:14:35.979 --> 01:14:38.380
to be trusted in those kinds of incidents. So,

01:14:38.399 --> 01:14:41.859
and then, uh, the agency I was working, uh, the

01:14:41.859 --> 01:14:44.920
area I was working, I learned very quickly that

01:14:44.920 --> 01:14:48.420
private ambulances are not the most stable thing

01:14:48.420 --> 01:14:52.359
for a family because they change a lot. The patches

01:14:52.359 --> 01:14:55.800
and the trucks change, but, um, the people stay

01:14:55.800 --> 01:14:57.479
the same. So I was like, there's something wrong

01:14:57.479 --> 01:15:00.659
here and saw that the value in the brotherhood

01:15:00.659 --> 01:15:03.220
of the fire service. And that's when I got hired

01:15:03.220 --> 01:15:05.380
on in the agency that I've been employed at my

01:15:05.380 --> 01:15:08.140
whole career. 25 and a half years I've been there.

01:15:09.100 --> 01:15:12.340
I was a straight C student in school. And it's

01:15:12.340 --> 01:15:13.920
funny because when I got to the fire academy,

01:15:14.060 --> 01:15:16.579
it was pretty much straight A's and then the

01:15:16.579 --> 01:15:19.199
same with the MT and ultimately paramedic school.

01:15:19.739 --> 01:15:22.579
With you having that more didactic way of learning,

01:15:22.659 --> 01:15:24.520
how did you do academically in the fire side?

01:15:26.220 --> 01:15:32.729
I think I did pretty good. Once again, I'm a

01:15:32.729 --> 01:15:34.529
hands -on learner, and the fire service is all

01:15:34.529 --> 01:15:36.510
hands -on kind of stuff. So when it came to check

01:15:36.510 --> 01:15:38.609
sheets and that kind of stuff, as long as you

01:15:38.609 --> 01:15:40.149
memorized the check sheet, you could get through

01:15:40.149 --> 01:15:43.789
it. And I put a lot of time, effort, and energy

01:15:43.789 --> 01:15:45.789
into something that I really enjoyed doing it.

01:15:45.989 --> 01:15:48.890
I'm a prankster, jokester. So as a young rookie

01:15:48.890 --> 01:15:52.859
recruit, we had a lot of fun. back before HR

01:15:52.859 --> 01:15:55.840
got to be what HR is nowadays. Yeah, there's

01:15:55.840 --> 01:15:57.840
hazing and there's firehouse humor. Those are

01:15:57.840 --> 01:16:00.020
two very different things. If it's coming from

01:16:00.020 --> 01:16:02.420
a place of nastiness, it's hazing. Yes, yeah,

01:16:02.500 --> 01:16:05.199
100%. If you're ending up covered in water and

01:16:05.199 --> 01:16:08.619
then flour and then feathers. It was a slower

01:16:08.619 --> 01:16:11.100
agency at times, so the sleep deprivation wasn't

01:16:11.100 --> 01:16:13.760
necessarily from running calls. It was monk room

01:16:13.760 --> 01:16:17.989
shenanigans probably. So when you reflect back

01:16:17.989 --> 01:16:19.789
now, we'll get to kind of like the mental health

01:16:19.789 --> 01:16:22.109
kind of roller coaster. But what was some of

01:16:22.109 --> 01:16:24.050
the what we'd call career calls that you had

01:16:24.050 --> 01:16:27.130
over those kind of couple of decades? That's

01:16:27.130 --> 01:16:30.850
a lot of years to go back. Mental fog and sleep

01:16:30.850 --> 01:16:37.369
deprivation. I remember one of the calls. So

01:16:37.369 --> 01:16:39.670
a Sentinel call I've been on a couple of years

01:16:39.670 --> 01:16:44.619
and there was a car wreck that involved. Two

01:16:44.619 --> 01:16:46.539
cars that were traveling northbound on the highway

01:16:46.539 --> 01:16:50.479
in a caravan, and then a drunk driver came southbound

01:16:50.479 --> 01:16:53.239
in the northbound lanes, got on the exit. And

01:16:53.239 --> 01:16:55.899
it was at the north end of our city, our territory,

01:16:55.979 --> 01:17:00.520
and the car overturned. And there were a bunch

01:17:00.520 --> 01:17:02.399
of kids that went bowling and were coming home,

01:17:02.479 --> 01:17:04.279
and one of the cars overturned and had three

01:17:04.279 --> 01:17:06.399
or four kids in it, and the car was on fire.

01:17:07.950 --> 01:17:10.029
And at the time, I was riding battalion aid.

01:17:10.210 --> 01:17:12.229
We don't have battalion aids now, but I was driving

01:17:12.229 --> 01:17:14.449
the battalion. And everybody else was tending

01:17:14.449 --> 01:17:17.729
to the fire with the kids in it, and two of them

01:17:17.729 --> 01:17:22.369
ultimately perished. But it was up to me. While

01:17:22.369 --> 01:17:24.289
everyone else was dealing with a scene, I was

01:17:24.289 --> 01:17:26.689
a half mile down the road dealing with a wrong

01:17:26.689 --> 01:17:29.710
-way driver. And she was in some pretty bad shape,

01:17:29.909 --> 01:17:32.210
broken pelvis, some other stuff. And I remember

01:17:32.210 --> 01:17:34.750
tending to her, even though she'd just caused

01:17:34.750 --> 01:17:38.739
all this trauma. and bad things to this, these

01:17:38.739 --> 01:17:41.739
unsuspecting kids. And I was able to render care

01:17:41.739 --> 01:17:43.880
to her. Somehow, I don't know how I did it. I

01:17:43.880 --> 01:17:45.859
was behind her holding C -spine with my elbows

01:17:45.859 --> 01:17:48.260
and I was able to pull her arm up on the steering

01:17:48.260 --> 01:17:50.180
wheel and start an IV from behind her and do

01:17:50.180 --> 01:17:52.739
everything I needed to do. And she ended up getting

01:17:52.739 --> 01:17:55.279
transported. I'm sure there was jail time and

01:17:55.279 --> 01:17:57.079
all the other kinds of stuff after the fact,

01:17:57.180 --> 01:18:01.020
but that's not really stuck with me. It stuck

01:18:01.020 --> 01:18:04.520
with me. being called in the next day for a critical

01:18:04.520 --> 01:18:07.140
incident stress debriefing. My first time experiencing

01:18:07.140 --> 01:18:11.180
that. And I remember some seasoned chiefs. So

01:18:11.180 --> 01:18:13.500
at the time we had, we're just transitioning

01:18:13.500 --> 01:18:17.319
from a combination volunteer or volunteer part

01:18:17.319 --> 01:18:21.340
-time, full -time department to full -time all

01:18:21.340 --> 01:18:23.500
the way across the board. And a lot of our fire

01:18:23.500 --> 01:18:26.680
marshals at the time were, they worked in another

01:18:26.680 --> 01:18:29.260
agency. And they worked part -time in the fire

01:18:29.260 --> 01:18:31.479
marshal's office. But one of the chiefs in there,

01:18:31.600 --> 01:18:33.279
he was a paramedic as well, and he was on that

01:18:33.279 --> 01:18:35.899
call with us. And I remember looking across the

01:18:35.899 --> 01:18:39.060
table at him, and he was in absolute tears, like

01:18:39.060 --> 01:18:42.640
sobbing. And I couldn't understand why. Turns

01:18:42.640 --> 01:18:45.239
out he had kids that age of the kids that perished

01:18:45.239 --> 01:18:49.460
in the car. Here I am, a young firefighter with

01:18:49.460 --> 01:18:51.760
babies. I couldn't relate to anything. I was

01:18:51.760 --> 01:18:54.260
like, is there something wrong with me? Because

01:18:54.260 --> 01:18:56.199
this call isn't affecting me like it's affecting

01:18:56.199 --> 01:19:02.239
him. And looking back on that, I understand it

01:19:02.239 --> 01:19:08.760
now. Why the calls that we run affect us, because

01:19:08.760 --> 01:19:10.880
they're directly related to what we have going

01:19:10.880 --> 01:19:15.479
on in our personal lives. Yeah, the one, I wrote

01:19:15.479 --> 01:19:17.560
about it in One More Light, and it kind of actually

01:19:17.560 --> 01:19:21.800
refers to it even in Kinder, but the three -year

01:19:21.800 --> 01:19:24.479
-old I had killed when my son was about two.

01:19:25.390 --> 01:19:28.130
is the one, the only one I've really, I remember

01:19:28.130 --> 01:19:30.210
it shaking me on scene again, not to the point

01:19:30.210 --> 01:19:33.069
where it would affect our ability to do, but

01:19:33.069 --> 01:19:35.970
it was a, you know, DOA. I mean, she was decapitated

01:19:35.970 --> 01:19:39.210
basically. So, um, but it became a body recovery.

01:19:39.390 --> 01:19:40.970
And I've said this a few times when we were supposed

01:19:40.970 --> 01:19:44.850
to go back, this is real leadership. My captain

01:19:44.850 --> 01:19:49.489
told me and my partner, I'm DFOing you to stay

01:19:49.489 --> 01:19:52.649
in the station. He said, we're about to retire

01:19:52.649 --> 01:19:55.260
him and the engineer were close to the end. You

01:19:55.260 --> 01:19:57.899
do not need to add this to the, you know, encyclopedia

01:19:57.899 --> 01:19:59.600
of things that you're going to see in your career.

01:19:59.659 --> 01:20:01.600
This is a body recovery. You're not saving anyone.

01:20:02.020 --> 01:20:05.199
And I remember then we were kind of almost like

01:20:05.199 --> 01:20:07.220
butthurt, like, you know, they don't think that

01:20:07.220 --> 01:20:08.979
we can handle it kind of thing. But then you

01:20:08.979 --> 01:20:11.119
reflect back and like, what incredible leadership.

01:20:11.680 --> 01:20:14.439
You know, if you don't need to witness something

01:20:14.439 --> 01:20:17.560
horrific in the fire service, then you shouldn't.

01:20:17.560 --> 01:20:19.819
Like your officers or the medic, lead medic,

01:20:19.880 --> 01:20:22.869
whatever it is, I'll go. I'll go run a strip.

01:20:22.930 --> 01:20:25.810
I'll go see whatever it is. Stay back. You don't

01:20:25.810 --> 01:20:29.069
need this in your mind. But that one is the only

01:20:29.069 --> 01:20:32.170
one I've ever had. It wasn't even a flashback

01:20:32.170 --> 01:20:34.689
so much, but I was at Disney and this little

01:20:34.689 --> 01:20:36.470
girl, the engine had covered her with a blanket.

01:20:36.829 --> 01:20:38.970
And it was obviously a weird kind of silhouette

01:20:38.970 --> 01:20:43.170
because the head was missing. But she had sneakers

01:20:43.170 --> 01:20:45.270
on and long socks and all that stuff. And then

01:20:45.270 --> 01:20:47.890
we were at Disney years later and it was a hot

01:20:47.890 --> 01:20:51.250
day. So someone had... a blanket over the stroller

01:20:51.250 --> 01:20:53.069
in this case to protect them for the sun but

01:20:53.069 --> 01:20:55.630
it was the same kind of little legs and I just

01:20:55.630 --> 01:20:58.689
had this adrenaline rush and I told Becky I'm

01:20:58.689 --> 01:21:01.250
like I just need to sit down for a second yeah

01:21:01.250 --> 01:21:04.229
and I was good after you know catching my breath

01:21:04.229 --> 01:21:07.090
and everything but I was like fuck man if this

01:21:07.090 --> 01:21:09.210
is what people experience all the time that are

01:21:09.210 --> 01:21:11.350
really deep in this and get the flashbacks but

01:21:11.350 --> 01:21:14.649
again that was because at that time my son was

01:21:14.649 --> 01:21:18.369
the same age and I used to have the seat on the

01:21:18.369 --> 01:21:21.020
side And after that day, I moved the seat to

01:21:21.020 --> 01:21:22.699
the middle. Much harder to get your kid in and

01:21:22.699 --> 01:21:25.659
out. I didn't care. It gives him, you know, maybe

01:21:25.659 --> 01:21:28.100
a foot and a half more chance of recovering if

01:21:28.100 --> 01:21:30.319
he gets hit on either side. But it does. I mean,

01:21:30.340 --> 01:21:32.279
how can it not affect you? And even on the other

01:21:32.279 --> 01:21:34.520
side, I've had people that had to work their

01:21:34.520 --> 01:21:37.119
father, their grandfather, and then they go and

01:21:37.119 --> 01:21:39.060
run, as you mentioned, the numerous elderly.

01:21:39.460 --> 01:21:41.479
We forget about that too. It's not just the kids.

01:21:41.920 --> 01:21:43.880
It's something that relates you back to your

01:21:43.880 --> 01:21:46.279
own life that can be detrimental too. And it

01:21:46.279 --> 01:21:48.840
changes from time to time. What's going to affect

01:21:48.840 --> 01:21:51.140
you five years in is going to affect you different

01:21:51.140 --> 01:21:56.979
25 years in. Absolutely. Well, going back to

01:21:56.979 --> 01:21:59.720
having the compassion that you had in the crack

01:21:59.720 --> 01:22:02.520
house with the, you know, the tooth pain reminds

01:22:02.520 --> 01:22:04.979
me of one of the stories I wrote about in One

01:22:04.979 --> 01:22:08.300
More Light where my very first apartment, it

01:22:08.300 --> 01:22:10.020
was a man down. I'll never forget this. I was

01:22:10.020 --> 01:22:13.439
brand new, you know, probie. And there was like

01:22:13.439 --> 01:22:16.329
groans in the station. And I was like, that's

01:22:16.329 --> 01:22:18.130
weird. Anyway, we get on the rig and we get there

01:22:18.130 --> 01:22:21.810
and there's some, you know, cops already standing

01:22:21.810 --> 01:22:23.569
around this guy who's lying on the sidewalk.

01:22:24.409 --> 01:22:26.810
And we get out and they just kind of join the

01:22:26.810 --> 01:22:29.270
circle. And this one female cop starts kicking,

01:22:29.510 --> 01:22:31.670
probably has already, is kicking this guy. Hey,

01:22:31.710 --> 01:22:35.250
buddy, hey, buddy, get up. And I'm looking at

01:22:35.250 --> 01:22:37.170
them going, well, I'm going to do something.

01:22:37.229 --> 01:22:39.810
So I just go to the guy and obviously check,

01:22:39.890 --> 01:22:42.170
make sure he's breathing. And then, you know,

01:22:42.170 --> 01:22:45.380
ultimately look through his pockets. And, you

01:22:45.380 --> 01:22:47.399
know, he's intoxicated alcohol, but I find a

01:22:47.399 --> 01:22:50.380
piece of paper and it's a drug test result. And

01:22:50.380 --> 01:22:53.640
he's just found out he's HIV positive. And I'm

01:22:53.640 --> 01:22:55.399
like, well, what would you do if you found that

01:22:55.399 --> 01:22:57.180
out? There's probably a good chance that you

01:22:57.180 --> 01:23:00.039
might open a bottle and drown your sorrows and

01:23:00.039 --> 01:23:03.039
try and process this. And I remember just thinking,

01:23:03.119 --> 01:23:05.520
how can we're supposed to be this kind, compassionate

01:23:05.520 --> 01:23:08.060
servant, you know, service oriented profession.

01:23:08.779 --> 01:23:11.640
How did these people get to this point? there's

01:23:11.640 --> 01:23:14.300
another one i remember it was a stroke um an

01:23:14.300 --> 01:23:16.539
elderly lady had a stroke and the medic is like

01:23:16.539 --> 01:23:18.819
making fun of her chin hair while we're pushing

01:23:18.819 --> 01:23:20.520
her you know to the to the ambulance and i'm

01:23:20.520 --> 01:23:23.000
again like what the fuck is this right but then

01:23:23.000 --> 01:23:25.119
i realized now obviously we know this is compassion

01:23:25.119 --> 01:23:29.420
fatigue you seem to have such a you know a loving

01:23:29.420 --> 01:23:33.619
heart though were you able to to retain that

01:23:33.619 --> 01:23:36.579
compassion even when you started going through

01:23:36.579 --> 01:23:40.340
your own stuff um I believe so because I could

01:23:40.340 --> 01:23:42.800
pour my time and energy into those calls. So

01:23:42.800 --> 01:23:46.399
at work, I believe so. I think the area I suffered

01:23:46.399 --> 01:23:50.000
the most was actually at home where I didn't

01:23:50.000 --> 01:23:51.739
have the compassion at home that I needed to

01:23:51.739 --> 01:23:56.479
have because they, speaking of my family, didn't

01:23:56.479 --> 01:23:58.960
understand what I'd just been through. And all

01:23:58.960 --> 01:24:01.119
too often as we do as firefighters, we want to

01:24:01.119 --> 01:24:05.220
protect them from the maladies that we see from

01:24:05.220 --> 01:24:08.090
the abhorrent. Things that we see about society

01:24:08.090 --> 01:24:09.810
and we don't want them to see and understand

01:24:09.810 --> 01:24:13.949
that. So I remember a common phrase when I'd

01:24:13.949 --> 01:24:20.989
get home and I'd be super tired is my wife would

01:24:20.989 --> 01:24:24.210
say, are you doing okay? And my response was

01:24:24.210 --> 01:24:31.409
always, I'm just tired. And it wasn't necessarily

01:24:31.409 --> 01:24:34.170
physically tired. It was mentally, emotionally,

01:24:34.449 --> 01:24:37.199
spiritually tired. I'm just tired of dealing

01:24:37.199 --> 01:24:43.859
with this crap. And understandably so. I'd been

01:24:43.859 --> 01:24:46.640
away from the house for 24 or 48 hours because

01:24:46.640 --> 01:24:48.899
I was one of those firefighters that didn't work

01:24:48.899 --> 01:24:51.220
one fire department. I always worked part -time

01:24:51.220 --> 01:24:53.439
at another fire department. So there's 48 hours

01:24:53.439 --> 01:24:56.380
that I'm at home that when I get home on my one

01:24:56.380 --> 01:24:59.899
-off day, all she wants is a break from the kids

01:24:59.899 --> 01:25:01.699
and dealing with all this other kind of stuff.

01:25:02.220 --> 01:25:04.439
And I'm pissy because I'd just been up running

01:25:04.439 --> 01:25:06.680
calls or I'd seen this or done that. And I'm

01:25:06.680 --> 01:25:09.140
coming home to a dirty house where I like order,

01:25:09.260 --> 01:25:11.500
where at the firehouse after dinner, everybody

01:25:11.500 --> 01:25:14.920
gets off, cleans the table off, wipes everything

01:25:14.920 --> 01:25:18.300
down, does the dishes. And at my house, when

01:25:18.300 --> 01:25:20.220
I'm at home, we get up and there's dishes left

01:25:20.220 --> 01:25:22.340
on the table, the sink's full, the trash isn't

01:25:22.340 --> 01:25:24.279
taken out, all this other kind of stuff. And

01:25:24.279 --> 01:25:27.960
all I want is some order. And I didn't have the

01:25:27.960 --> 01:25:29.939
compassion and understanding for my family at

01:25:29.939 --> 01:25:34.310
the time. So let's kind of walk through that.

01:25:34.409 --> 01:25:37.750
You know, you said even the entry to this, you

01:25:37.750 --> 01:25:39.569
know, with some of the horrific stuff as an EMT

01:25:39.569 --> 01:25:41.989
and then a medic and then, you know, your early

01:25:41.989 --> 01:25:44.609
years in the fire service. And now you've got

01:25:44.609 --> 01:25:47.050
this compounding element, you know, that 48 is

01:25:47.050 --> 01:25:48.869
another thing that we do, you know, whether it's

01:25:48.869 --> 01:25:50.869
within the same agency and it's mandatory over

01:25:50.869 --> 01:25:54.770
time, it's voluntary over time. When you kind

01:25:54.770 --> 01:25:57.729
of look at the timeline, what was that kind of

01:25:57.729 --> 01:25:59.949
downward spiral and then where was your lowest

01:25:59.949 --> 01:26:03.149
place? I felt valued at work and not that I didn't

01:26:03.149 --> 01:26:05.789
feel valued at home, but I was comfortable at

01:26:05.789 --> 01:26:12.029
work. I was comfortable at work and I was good

01:26:12.029 --> 01:26:14.270
at it. I mean, there was a time I was working

01:26:14.270 --> 01:26:16.470
full time at one department, part time at another,

01:26:16.649 --> 01:26:18.810
helping with all the training classes. And I

01:26:18.810 --> 01:26:23.109
was a SWAT medic on the on the SWAT team. So

01:26:23.109 --> 01:26:25.550
I was putting in a lot of hours and I have a

01:26:25.550 --> 01:26:27.609
lot of value for that part time department that

01:26:27.609 --> 01:26:30.409
I was at because. At the time, there was all

01:26:30.409 --> 01:26:33.329
these Metro Atlanta firefighters working at this

01:26:33.329 --> 01:26:35.510
part time department that were battalion chiefs

01:26:35.510 --> 01:26:38.010
and captains and had all these the skill set

01:26:38.010 --> 01:26:40.090
that they learned from their full time jobs that

01:26:40.090 --> 01:26:43.510
I was literally learning on the job as an internship,

01:26:43.569 --> 01:26:45.649
essentially getting paid for where I was riding

01:26:45.649 --> 01:26:47.989
seat and they were sitting in the back because

01:26:47.989 --> 01:26:49.510
they're retired from running all the calls at

01:26:49.510 --> 01:26:53.010
their full time agencies. So career wise, it

01:26:53.010 --> 01:26:56.850
was the best time in my career. Home wise. It

01:26:56.850 --> 01:26:58.770
directly affected the relationship, especially

01:26:58.770 --> 01:27:02.430
with my two youngest children. Just two days

01:27:02.430 --> 01:27:05.930
ago, my daughter flew out to go out west to try

01:27:05.930 --> 01:27:08.750
to find herself for the third time. And before

01:27:08.750 --> 01:27:11.289
she left, she's like, do you want to hug dad?

01:27:11.350 --> 01:27:13.229
I said, honey, that's up to you. These are the

01:27:13.229 --> 01:27:16.810
decisions you're making. And that's up to you.

01:27:16.850 --> 01:27:21.029
And she turned around and walked out. Because

01:27:21.029 --> 01:27:23.409
we'd been the safe place, she can always come

01:27:23.409 --> 01:27:27.119
back home. But there's a point where you want

01:27:27.119 --> 01:27:28.880
to make your decisions and include your friends

01:27:28.880 --> 01:27:30.680
and put everything on social media, but we're

01:27:30.680 --> 01:27:35.460
not discussing it as a family. We're here to

01:27:35.460 --> 01:27:39.420
help you. When you're ready, we're ready. And

01:27:39.420 --> 01:27:41.579
I haven't talked to her since. It's affected

01:27:41.579 --> 01:27:44.979
my relationship. Like I said, my son has autism.

01:27:45.920 --> 01:27:47.899
There was many times when he was going through

01:27:47.899 --> 01:27:50.020
his struggles where he was good at school the

01:27:50.020 --> 01:27:51.840
whole time, kind of like you talked about with

01:27:51.840 --> 01:27:55.199
Ty. He coped and coped and coped and was okay

01:27:55.199 --> 01:27:58.640
until he finally said, I'm not okay. And he has

01:27:58.640 --> 01:28:01.380
an outburst and look where it got him. Same thing

01:28:01.380 --> 01:28:03.079
with my son. He'd be good at school, but when

01:28:03.079 --> 01:28:05.000
he came home, that's when the bloody happened.

01:28:06.819 --> 01:28:09.199
Pop -off valve was working great at school, but

01:28:09.199 --> 01:28:11.020
when he got home, he was comfortable and things

01:28:11.020 --> 01:28:14.020
could release. And he was having some depression,

01:28:14.079 --> 01:28:17.079
anxiety, pulling his hair out. And I couldn't

01:28:17.079 --> 01:28:19.439
talk to Caleb. I would have to say something

01:28:19.439 --> 01:28:22.289
to my wife so that she could translate it. whatever

01:28:22.289 --> 01:28:25.130
dad was trying to say to him because we did not

01:28:25.130 --> 01:28:27.810
speak the same language. And I think that's directly

01:28:27.810 --> 01:28:30.770
attributed to all the time I spent at work in

01:28:30.770 --> 01:28:33.189
that time as they were adolescent dealing with

01:28:33.189 --> 01:28:39.229
their own issues. What was that draw to stay?

01:28:40.140 --> 01:28:42.220
You know, whether it was overtime in your department,

01:28:42.260 --> 01:28:44.020
whether it was to work on the other one. I mean,

01:28:44.039 --> 01:28:46.439
obviously finances are always going to be a thing.

01:28:46.579 --> 01:28:49.479
But when we actually break it apart, I think

01:28:49.479 --> 01:28:50.939
a lot of times, you know, there's all the equally

01:28:50.939 --> 01:28:53.899
and opposite. There's ways of living more than

01:28:53.899 --> 01:28:56.609
means that will offset that. What do you think

01:28:56.609 --> 01:29:00.170
was that pull that kept you in uniform longer

01:29:00.170 --> 01:29:02.329
than you needed to be? I think it boils down

01:29:02.329 --> 01:29:04.869
to my childhood and growing up. My dad was a

01:29:04.869 --> 01:29:07.409
teacher. He spent a lot of time at school, probably

01:29:07.409 --> 01:29:09.449
a little bit extra after school to grade papers,

01:29:09.550 --> 01:29:11.409
but he poured into the kids at school just as

01:29:11.409 --> 01:29:13.409
much as well. I mean, that's why he got out of

01:29:13.409 --> 01:29:15.109
being an educator, because it was the time of

01:29:15.109 --> 01:29:18.970
the crack babies where it was always the teacher's

01:29:18.970 --> 01:29:23.350
fault, not the parents' fault. So he likes order.

01:29:24.860 --> 01:29:27.439
So mom stayed at home and raised us. Family of

01:29:27.439 --> 01:29:30.560
10. There's not enough daycare out there for

01:29:30.560 --> 01:29:33.239
10 kids. Not enough money either for 10 kids.

01:29:33.779 --> 01:29:36.260
So you have built in babysitters with the older

01:29:36.260 --> 01:29:38.140
kids and everything else, which it was fine.

01:29:38.239 --> 01:29:41.039
But mom was always in the home. So I looked at

01:29:41.039 --> 01:29:43.039
it that way as well. If I can be out being the

01:29:43.039 --> 01:29:45.380
breadwinner, at least my wife is at home and

01:29:45.380 --> 01:29:48.079
she's raising them with our values and everything

01:29:48.079 --> 01:29:50.420
that we believe in and not. sending them out

01:29:50.420 --> 01:29:52.020
to daycares and all this other kind of stuff

01:29:52.020 --> 01:29:54.399
to have somebody else raise our kids. So it was

01:29:54.399 --> 01:29:56.899
those opportunities that were there that I was

01:29:56.899 --> 01:30:02.359
able to capitalize on. I love that phrase, we

01:30:02.359 --> 01:30:04.319
did the best of what we had. And I think that

01:30:04.319 --> 01:30:08.840
kind of takes some of the blame off the way we

01:30:08.840 --> 01:30:10.920
were raised and going further back. Because that's

01:30:10.920 --> 01:30:13.539
true. The environment now, this conversation

01:30:13.539 --> 01:30:15.159
that we're having, you and I wouldn't have even

01:30:15.159 --> 01:30:18.489
had 15 years ago. We wouldn't be able to. But

01:30:18.489 --> 01:30:20.369
now, I mean, it's something I've talked about

01:30:20.369 --> 01:30:23.390
a lot with, again, the work week. You know, my

01:30:23.390 --> 01:30:26.409
whole fire service career, every single union

01:30:26.409 --> 01:30:28.970
negotiation has been about money. And usually

01:30:28.970 --> 01:30:32.210
in a pretty small amount, like a 50 cent raise,

01:30:32.329 --> 01:30:35.810
dollar raise, whatever it is. But what I'm realizing

01:30:35.810 --> 01:30:38.189
now is the ultimate currency is time with our

01:30:38.189 --> 01:30:42.750
family. If you could go back in time, not guilt,

01:30:42.869 --> 01:30:45.470
regret, shame, because that was then and this

01:30:45.470 --> 01:30:49.439
is now. What would you do differently? Probably

01:30:49.439 --> 01:30:51.380
if I would have worked a second job, it wouldn't

01:30:51.380 --> 01:30:55.199
have been in another fire department. Yeah, because

01:30:55.199 --> 01:30:56.699
there's other ways of making money. And this

01:30:56.699 --> 01:30:58.319
is what we forget. And I think this is the other

01:30:58.319 --> 01:31:00.800
thing, even with the overtime, if it's an understaffed

01:31:00.800 --> 01:31:03.720
department, just because it's not mandatory,

01:31:03.819 --> 01:31:06.720
there's an underlying element of guilt that if

01:31:06.720 --> 01:31:08.560
I don't take that, someone's going to get forced.

01:31:09.149 --> 01:31:11.750
So a lot of the air quotes voluntary over time

01:31:11.750 --> 01:31:14.670
is really mandatory, but we're just nice people

01:31:14.670 --> 01:31:16.710
and we don't want, you know, the firefighter

01:31:16.710 --> 01:31:19.149
that just had a kid to get hit and he's on the

01:31:19.149 --> 01:31:21.630
bubble. So you take it for him. Yeah. We had

01:31:21.630 --> 01:31:24.029
something happen at the firehouse just last shift.

01:31:24.069 --> 01:31:25.970
I worked before I came down here. One of the

01:31:25.970 --> 01:31:28.909
guys, we've got a newer, like a two year guy

01:31:28.909 --> 01:31:31.369
that's been with us. He's been at my station

01:31:31.369 --> 01:31:35.390
just a couple of weeks to work on some, some

01:31:35.390 --> 01:31:38.779
task book type stuff. But, It was after dinnertime

01:31:38.779 --> 01:31:40.239
and we were all kind of sitting there talking

01:31:40.239 --> 01:31:41.899
and he was out in the bay FaceTiming with his

01:31:41.899 --> 01:31:43.680
family. He came in with the biggest smile on

01:31:43.680 --> 01:31:48.039
his face with his baby son on FaceTime. He said,

01:31:48.060 --> 01:31:52.539
guys, my son just took his first steps. It jaded

01:31:52.539 --> 01:31:55.220
me, slips out of my mouth. Welcome to the fire

01:31:55.220 --> 01:31:58.659
service. Because you're witnessing your child

01:31:58.659 --> 01:32:00.539
taking its first steps over FaceTime because

01:32:00.539 --> 01:32:03.630
you're at a firehouse. Yeah. And that could also

01:32:03.630 --> 01:32:05.210
happen because you're an accountant. Right. And

01:32:05.210 --> 01:32:07.590
it happened at three in the afternoon. That's

01:32:07.590 --> 01:32:09.609
right where my mind went, even though I've got

01:32:09.609 --> 01:32:11.170
all the tools and everything that I've done.

01:32:11.189 --> 01:32:14.510
I was like... But again, that's a very loud voice

01:32:14.510 --> 01:32:18.210
because really the truth is you were away from

01:32:18.210 --> 01:32:19.970
your family way more than you should have been.

01:32:19.989 --> 01:32:22.869
So the chances of you seeing that firsthand in

01:32:22.869 --> 01:32:26.529
person are greatly diminished when you work in

01:32:26.529 --> 01:32:29.390
56 hours and now you've got mandatory or you've

01:32:29.390 --> 01:32:33.470
got a... um you know a distorted belief that

01:32:33.470 --> 01:32:35.369
you'll add value to your career by working in

01:32:35.369 --> 01:32:37.470
a second department too you know but this is

01:32:37.470 --> 01:32:39.710
the reality i tell people like how many first

01:32:39.710 --> 01:32:41.729
steps have you missed how many donuts with dads

01:32:41.729 --> 01:32:44.590
how many ballet recitals or high school award

01:32:44.590 --> 01:32:47.350
ceremonies or whatever it is when they've looked

01:32:47.350 --> 01:32:49.250
out in the audience and trust me i was the kid

01:32:49.250 --> 01:32:50.949
looking out in the audience and my dad wasn't

01:32:50.949 --> 01:32:53.890
there and we're not there and we're like oh but

01:32:53.890 --> 01:32:55.710
we're on a mission to save the world and it's

01:32:55.710 --> 01:32:58.050
important it's like yeah but Those are the people

01:32:58.050 --> 01:33:00.710
that it's most important to. Because we all know

01:33:00.710 --> 01:33:03.489
that if Mark or James aren't in the station that

01:33:03.489 --> 01:33:06.630
day, another body's going to fill the seat. You're

01:33:06.630 --> 01:33:09.489
not that important. But to your children, you're

01:33:09.489 --> 01:33:13.529
everything. The world won't stop spinning. So

01:33:13.529 --> 01:33:15.909
on that journey then, obviously there seems to

01:33:15.909 --> 01:33:18.930
be a lot of guilt and shame about the home side.

01:33:19.760 --> 01:33:22.720
Where was that lowest point? If, if any, like,

01:33:22.800 --> 01:33:25.199
you know, pivotal point and let's talk about,

01:33:25.199 --> 01:33:27.380
you know, what you started trying to do to, to

01:33:27.380 --> 01:33:30.840
address that. I think biggest thing overall,

01:33:31.039 --> 01:33:34.579
there's no, I don't think there's one specific

01:33:34.579 --> 01:33:37.159
incident I could put my fingers on. I think just

01:33:37.159 --> 01:33:43.619
the tiredness and in there came a point where

01:33:43.619 --> 01:33:47.880
I felt like I would be more worth to my family.

01:33:48.700 --> 01:33:51.220
if I were to die at work or on my way home or

01:33:51.220 --> 01:33:53.180
anything like that, because of the financial

01:33:53.180 --> 01:33:55.859
and all the insurance and everything else, that

01:33:55.859 --> 01:33:58.100
I'd be more of value to my family than what I'm

01:33:58.100 --> 01:34:00.159
giving them right now. Did you feel like a burden

01:34:00.159 --> 01:34:02.199
at that point? Did you feel in any way, shape

01:34:02.199 --> 01:34:04.960
or form that you were? the reason for some of

01:34:04.960 --> 01:34:06.880
the suffering? The reason I ask that is I hear

01:34:06.880 --> 01:34:08.479
that from so many people that have been at that

01:34:08.479 --> 01:34:10.380
point, that little voices whispering in their

01:34:10.380 --> 01:34:12.840
ear. I did. I think it got to the point where

01:34:12.840 --> 01:34:15.340
these, my kids are behaving this way or going

01:34:15.340 --> 01:34:17.100
through these things because I'm not present.

01:34:17.180 --> 01:34:20.659
I'm not there. My relationship with my wife wasn't

01:34:20.659 --> 01:34:23.079
the best at the time. I mean, this year we'll

01:34:23.079 --> 01:34:25.699
hit 30 years of marriage, which is a total anomaly

01:34:25.699 --> 01:34:29.159
in the fire service. I'm not saying it's been

01:34:29.159 --> 01:34:32.260
all butterflies and rainbows and unicorns and

01:34:32.260 --> 01:34:39.729
everything else. But she was going through her

01:34:39.729 --> 01:34:41.369
stressors at the time. I was going through my

01:34:41.369 --> 01:34:43.210
stressors. I'm like, I'm probably worth more

01:34:43.210 --> 01:34:47.850
to her as a bank account than I am emotionally

01:34:47.850 --> 01:34:50.590
and spiritually at this point. I'm not there

01:34:50.590 --> 01:34:52.989
to support her and all this other kind of stuff.

01:34:53.609 --> 01:34:56.569
And I'm not the man she married 30 years ago.

01:34:58.289 --> 01:35:00.630
To say that this job doesn't affect us is like

01:35:00.630 --> 01:35:02.130
saying you can walk through a shower and not

01:35:02.130 --> 01:35:05.380
get wet. And it's not that it affects us in a

01:35:05.380 --> 01:35:14.539
bad way. So it changes who we are. And unless

01:35:14.539 --> 01:35:17.119
we continue to change our viewpoints and our

01:35:17.119 --> 01:35:20.500
perspectives, it's working out, for example.

01:35:21.140 --> 01:35:24.819
Just because I used to find a lot of solace in

01:35:24.819 --> 01:35:28.680
going to the gym. I coach CrossFit. So I'd be

01:35:28.680 --> 01:35:31.569
at the gym once again. Working 48 hours, I'd

01:35:31.569 --> 01:35:34.729
get off shift. My one day off, I'd wake up, be

01:35:34.729 --> 01:35:36.470
at the gym at 5 o 'clock in the morning, teach

01:35:36.470 --> 01:35:39.369
the 5 a .m., 6 a .m. class, work out between

01:35:39.369 --> 01:35:42.829
7 and 9 .30 when the 9 .30 class started, work

01:35:42.829 --> 01:35:45.649
out again between the 10 .30 and 12 o 'clock

01:35:45.649 --> 01:35:49.069
when the 12 o 'clock. Because that's, I'd feel

01:35:49.069 --> 01:35:53.130
like I need to punish myself to beat myself into

01:35:53.130 --> 01:35:55.810
a puddle of goo in the corner, sweat, crying,

01:35:56.010 --> 01:35:59.350
everything that a CrossFit workout does. Get

01:35:59.350 --> 01:36:02.470
it all out. Get it all out. I thought I was decompressing

01:36:02.470 --> 01:36:05.930
and it was doing total opposite. It was throwing

01:36:05.930 --> 01:36:07.949
my cortisol levels off. It was throwing everything

01:36:07.949 --> 01:36:11.550
off where when it came time to perform on the

01:36:11.550 --> 01:36:15.229
job, on trainings, or I didn't have the energy

01:36:15.229 --> 01:36:18.029
or the capability to perform to do my job, which

01:36:18.029 --> 01:36:20.869
I thought I was preparing by working out when

01:36:20.869 --> 01:36:23.449
I was emptying my tank is what I was doing, quite

01:36:23.449 --> 01:36:26.819
literally. I had Jeff Nichols on, just had him

01:36:26.819 --> 01:36:29.920
on again with Catherine, his wife recently. I

01:36:29.920 --> 01:36:34.079
haven't put it out yet, but I'll never forget

01:36:34.079 --> 01:36:36.859
in the interview, he was saying, basically kind

01:36:36.859 --> 01:36:38.659
of alluding to that. You got these people that

01:36:38.659 --> 01:36:40.600
go and kill themselves in the gym, you know,

01:36:40.619 --> 01:36:43.079
after you think he was talking about us. You've

01:36:43.079 --> 01:36:45.960
just done a 24 hour shift. And it hit me. I'm

01:36:45.960 --> 01:36:49.180
like, that's me. He goes, think about it. You

01:36:49.180 --> 01:36:52.590
come off. your stress levels are through the

01:36:52.590 --> 01:36:53.890
roof, and you're like, well, how am I going to

01:36:53.890 --> 01:36:56.649
deregulate my nervous system? Let me go do MRF.

01:36:57.029 --> 01:37:00.529
That'll do it. Stress plus stress does not equal

01:37:00.529 --> 01:37:04.390
less stress. Now, yes, a deload, kind of a slow

01:37:04.390 --> 01:37:07.369
row or a swim or a walk or something, absolutely.

01:37:07.689 --> 01:37:10.319
And I'll never forget. There was a workout. It

01:37:10.319 --> 01:37:11.979
wasn't that long after this. I think it was with

01:37:11.979 --> 01:37:14.760
that whole thing with Ty. So I was like borderline

01:37:14.760 --> 01:37:17.380
fucking homicidal by that point. Not actually,

01:37:17.439 --> 01:37:19.180
but you know. Yeah, no, definitely. Fucking hair

01:37:19.180 --> 01:37:22.000
trigger. And it was some sort of CrossFit workout

01:37:22.000 --> 01:37:26.060
where it was snatches and I just couldn't get

01:37:26.060 --> 01:37:29.899
the bar over my head. And I dropped the weights,

01:37:30.079 --> 01:37:33.840
walked out the gym and just went for a mile run.

01:37:34.319 --> 01:37:37.479
slow mile run by the time i got back i felt better

01:37:37.479 --> 01:37:42.520
but the complexity of an olympic lift couldn't

01:37:42.520 --> 01:37:45.079
have been further from what i actually needed

01:37:45.079 --> 01:37:48.119
it just added frustration right so when i took

01:37:48.119 --> 01:37:50.939
it realized like oh yeah you know sweating it

01:37:50.939 --> 01:37:53.420
out isn't really a thing like if you've come

01:37:53.420 --> 01:37:55.960
home and you're exhausted you know what is a

01:37:55.960 --> 01:37:58.520
low intensity thing you can do and how can you

01:37:58.520 --> 01:38:00.720
down regulate and do a new calm session or a

01:38:00.720 --> 01:38:04.430
headspace meditation and get to bed early That

01:38:04.430 --> 01:38:06.569
is so much more important than I'm just going

01:38:06.569 --> 01:38:09.569
to do Fran and then throw up in the toilet because

01:38:09.569 --> 01:38:13.430
it doesn't make any sense. Exactly. That's pretty,

01:38:13.489 --> 01:38:16.229
pretty powerful. So that was my initial way to

01:38:16.229 --> 01:38:18.970
try to cope with things. When I found that didn't

01:38:18.970 --> 01:38:22.829
work, I kind of connected with that's about the

01:38:22.829 --> 01:38:25.689
time I connected with Rick George and everything

01:38:25.689 --> 01:38:28.220
that Rick does with his. embracing the island

01:38:28.220 --> 01:38:32.500
of the misfit toys. Rick's superpower is his

01:38:32.500 --> 01:38:35.560
own personal journey. And I know he shared it

01:38:35.560 --> 01:38:38.699
in the past, but he's used that for the greater

01:38:38.699 --> 01:38:42.539
good of the power when it comes to vulnerability

01:38:42.539 --> 01:38:46.260
and authenticity, to share your own journey and

01:38:46.260 --> 01:38:49.500
not for the sake of comparing trauma trophies,

01:38:49.500 --> 01:38:53.920
but of, hey, this is what I've been through.

01:38:54.350 --> 01:38:56.329
And I've come out on the other side and it's

01:38:56.329 --> 01:39:00.029
not always ideal. Even though I've got all these

01:39:00.029 --> 01:39:02.930
tools in my toolbox now, it doesn't mean they

01:39:02.930 --> 01:39:05.229
work every time I need them. I may have to seek

01:39:05.229 --> 01:39:09.149
out something else. So I'd been helping one of

01:39:09.149 --> 01:39:12.489
our friends that he was an officer in our department,

01:39:12.550 --> 01:39:15.029
ended up going to Shatterproof because of some

01:39:15.029 --> 01:39:18.569
of his own personal struggles. He'd connected

01:39:18.569 --> 01:39:21.590
with Rick through that. And Rick was teaching

01:39:21.590 --> 01:39:24.149
a class up at MAFSE, Metro Atlanta Firefighter

01:39:24.149 --> 01:39:27.930
Conference in Atlanta that's up there. And this

01:39:27.930 --> 01:39:29.949
guy was going to help Rick out. I said, hey,

01:39:30.050 --> 01:39:33.470
I wouldn't mind coming down to help with the

01:39:33.470 --> 01:39:36.869
class. Well, as usually happens with those people

01:39:36.869 --> 01:39:38.949
that have substance use issues or deal with their

01:39:38.949 --> 01:39:40.909
own demons, they're not the most reliable when

01:39:40.909 --> 01:39:43.369
it comes to those situations. That guy wasn't

01:39:43.369 --> 01:39:45.250
able to make it, but I still went down there.

01:39:45.800 --> 01:39:50.619
And that's when I got into some pretty cool relationships

01:39:50.619 --> 01:39:53.439
with the tactical resiliency training and the

01:39:53.439 --> 01:39:56.500
team and was able to connect with a bunch of,

01:39:56.500 --> 01:39:59.279
I'm not even going to say broken individuals

01:39:59.279 --> 01:40:01.460
anymore. I heard a quote the other day and I

01:40:01.460 --> 01:40:04.060
don't remember who said it. I'm not trying to

01:40:04.060 --> 01:40:06.239
plagiarize anything. I listen to a lot of podcasts

01:40:06.239 --> 01:40:08.539
and read a lot of books, but he said, buried,

01:40:08.720 --> 01:40:14.239
not broken. I know you've talked about the legend

01:40:14.239 --> 01:40:17.300
of the seed. They planted us in a dark place

01:40:17.300 --> 01:40:20.500
and thought. Yeah, they tried to bury us. They

01:40:20.500 --> 01:40:23.159
didn't know we were seeds. Exactly. And that

01:40:23.159 --> 01:40:25.979
buried really hit home for me to see other people

01:40:25.979 --> 01:40:28.000
that have been through their own personal struggles

01:40:28.000 --> 01:40:31.060
and are the outcast of their departments or been

01:40:31.060 --> 01:40:33.220
through things and are no longer working for

01:40:33.220 --> 01:40:35.939
those departments to be able to give tools of

01:40:35.939 --> 01:40:41.279
resiliency to people. that are pre -planned,

01:40:41.279 --> 01:40:45.539
are pre -incident, not post -incident, to teach

01:40:45.539 --> 01:40:49.119
the breathing techniques, the yoga, the mindfulness,

01:40:49.500 --> 01:40:51.479
the things that we can use when the wheels start

01:40:51.479 --> 01:40:54.399
coming off, when we're alone in that dark building

01:40:54.399 --> 01:40:56.260
with all that smoke and our own thoughts, listening

01:40:56.260 --> 01:40:58.899
to our own breathing, when the walls start closing

01:40:58.899 --> 01:41:01.939
in. I had some of my own personal mass confidence

01:41:01.939 --> 01:41:04.300
issues just because of everything that I was

01:41:04.300 --> 01:41:06.979
going through. And it took a lot of time on a

01:41:06.979 --> 01:41:08.779
treadmill with a face piece and a blast mask

01:41:08.779 --> 01:41:11.640
to get over those. And it's still not ideal.

01:41:11.800 --> 01:41:14.460
There are still times where I go there, but luckily

01:41:14.460 --> 01:41:16.819
I have the tools in my toolbox now to overcome

01:41:16.819 --> 01:41:20.199
those things. And that's where I got introduced

01:41:20.199 --> 01:41:23.539
into yoga for first responders. And Eric and

01:41:23.539 --> 01:41:26.739
Olivia are some of the most powerful, genuine

01:41:26.739 --> 01:41:31.600
people that are out there that do things for

01:41:31.600 --> 01:41:36.960
the right reasons. Another group of people that

01:41:36.960 --> 01:41:39.060
saw value in me when I didn't see it in myself.

01:41:40.000 --> 01:41:42.720
Eric, they teach instructor schools. Eric wasn't

01:41:42.720 --> 01:41:46.319
able to be there because of his full -time job.

01:41:46.520 --> 01:41:48.899
And he said, dude, you're pretty comfortable

01:41:48.899 --> 01:41:51.720
in front of a classroom. We do a cultural competency

01:41:51.720 --> 01:41:53.760
side because we have yoga instructors in this

01:41:53.760 --> 01:41:55.500
class that don't know anything about the fire

01:41:55.500 --> 01:41:58.720
service. He said, do you mind come teaching the

01:41:58.720 --> 01:42:00.960
cultural competent part for this class? You can

01:42:00.960 --> 01:42:02.760
take the instructor school while you're there.

01:42:02.920 --> 01:42:05.159
They'll just teach this one hour of the class.

01:42:05.420 --> 01:42:08.659
And I was hooked immediately. The only yoga I'd

01:42:08.659 --> 01:42:10.899
done before then is the hour and a half tape

01:42:10.899 --> 01:42:14.079
of Taibo yoga or whatever it was. Billy Banks.

01:42:14.260 --> 01:42:17.000
Billy Banks or whatever it was. I don't even

01:42:17.000 --> 01:42:19.579
remember, but I know I'd never finished the DVD

01:42:19.579 --> 01:42:23.239
because it was so long. And that took me to some

01:42:23.239 --> 01:42:26.510
pretty dark places. The issues are in the tissues.

01:42:26.590 --> 01:42:28.949
And I remember holding a low squat horse position

01:42:28.949 --> 01:42:31.949
is what they call it. And having such an emotional

01:42:31.949 --> 01:42:35.329
release from all the tension and everything that

01:42:35.329 --> 01:42:37.850
I was holding in my connective tissues and my

01:42:37.850 --> 01:42:43.470
hips. And the power that was in that, being mindful,

01:42:43.550 --> 01:42:45.449
being on the mat, being able to work through

01:42:45.449 --> 01:42:47.550
those things and realizing that was part of the

01:42:47.550 --> 01:42:51.279
process. It's not stretching. It's processing

01:42:51.279 --> 01:42:54.279
stress. It's building resilience. It's enhancing

01:42:54.279 --> 01:42:56.640
performance. And the power that comes through

01:42:56.640 --> 01:42:59.579
the breath work of breathing into those areas

01:42:59.579 --> 01:43:03.500
was a huge game changer for me. And I still continue

01:43:03.500 --> 01:43:06.420
to be able to share that mission with a lot of

01:43:06.420 --> 01:43:09.220
people with Eric and Olivia with Yoga for First

01:43:09.220 --> 01:43:11.619
Responders. Yeah, they're amazing. Actually,

01:43:11.659 --> 01:43:14.380
I just flashed back then. Olivia and I did a...

01:43:15.100 --> 01:43:17.619
Facebook live. I did one with Eric Goodman and

01:43:17.619 --> 01:43:19.840
we did a foundation. This is during COVID. So

01:43:19.840 --> 01:43:22.000
everyone's in their house. So we did a full foundation

01:43:22.000 --> 01:43:24.760
training kind of workout, Facebook live for everyone

01:43:24.760 --> 01:43:27.279
to join along. And then Olivia did a yoga one,

01:43:27.319 --> 01:43:29.729
one time as well. But I mean, it just makes so

01:43:29.729 --> 01:43:31.210
much sense. And it's funny with the whole, you

01:43:31.210 --> 01:43:33.270
know, the body keeps the score and, you know,

01:43:33.270 --> 01:43:35.170
what they're doing with that. I had Rob Cifoli

01:43:35.170 --> 01:43:38.729
on who's FDNY fitness trainer, but they've got

01:43:38.729 --> 01:43:41.590
a thing that he was exposed to called TRE, trauma

01:43:41.590 --> 01:43:44.090
release exercises. And it's the same kind of

01:43:44.090 --> 01:43:46.010
thing. You do these kind of pulsing movements

01:43:46.010 --> 01:43:49.949
and then you get these tremors that you can't

01:43:49.949 --> 01:43:52.630
stop. And again, it's a huge release. It's all

01:43:52.630 --> 01:43:54.090
physiological. That's what happens. Nature is

01:43:54.090 --> 01:43:56.289
savage. And that's what happens after the gazelle

01:43:56.289 --> 01:43:58.680
is chased by the lion. They go into that. That

01:43:58.680 --> 01:44:01.119
shiver. That shiver. Yeah, 100%. And this is

01:44:01.119 --> 01:44:03.000
what's so, I talk about this all the time now.

01:44:03.479 --> 01:44:07.359
This is what's so fucking exciting is, and frustrating

01:44:07.359 --> 01:44:10.899
at the same time, is now, like again, you and

01:44:10.899 --> 01:44:13.159
I sit across, like we're going through this and

01:44:13.159 --> 01:44:15.819
this. We'd be like, well, I don't know. I don't

01:44:15.819 --> 01:44:18.000
know. How do you fix that? You know, what is

01:44:18.000 --> 01:44:20.779
mental health? Now we're sitting here and I've

01:44:20.779 --> 01:44:22.779
got over a thousand people on the show, almost

01:44:22.779 --> 01:44:26.109
1100 now. Each one of those has a solution for

01:44:26.109 --> 01:44:27.810
something, whether it's their own personal story

01:44:27.810 --> 01:44:29.649
people connect with, whether it's the things

01:44:29.649 --> 01:44:32.569
that they've created that are helping. But there

01:44:32.569 --> 01:44:35.630
are so many tools in the toolbox now. And we'll

01:44:35.630 --> 01:44:36.949
get to some of the other ones that you use in

01:44:36.949 --> 01:44:39.090
your mental health journey in a minute. But it's

01:44:39.090 --> 01:44:41.949
so much more vast than people realize. And understanding

01:44:41.949 --> 01:44:43.770
as well that if you're just talking about the

01:44:43.770 --> 01:44:46.270
mind and you go into counseling and you're doing

01:44:46.270 --> 01:44:49.180
nothing physically. Well, there's a disconnection

01:44:49.180 --> 01:44:51.539
there too. Healthy body, healthy mind, and vice

01:44:51.539 --> 01:44:54.399
versa. So if what you're doing doesn't include

01:44:54.399 --> 01:44:56.560
some sort of movement practice and working on

01:44:56.560 --> 01:44:59.600
your breath, you're missing pieces of these jigsaw

01:44:59.600 --> 01:45:01.199
puzzles that's going to give you that overall

01:45:01.199 --> 01:45:03.899
holistic kind of healing journey that you need.

01:45:04.220 --> 01:45:07.199
Yeah, definitely. And that's the thing. There's

01:45:07.199 --> 01:45:10.020
no one magic pill. And I know we've talked about

01:45:10.020 --> 01:45:11.960
that. Just because I've got all these tools,

01:45:12.100 --> 01:45:15.100
you know what? I might not be in the right headspace

01:45:15.100 --> 01:45:18.000
to try to be mindful at this point. I may need

01:45:18.000 --> 01:45:20.960
to go exercise or do something like that. Or,

01:45:20.979 --> 01:45:24.420
you know what? Yoga is not doing poses on a mat.

01:45:24.520 --> 01:45:26.199
Yoga is all about the breath work is what it

01:45:26.199 --> 01:45:28.960
boils down to. So as long as you're focusing

01:45:28.960 --> 01:45:30.779
on that breath work, you can do yoga sitting

01:45:30.779 --> 01:45:32.699
in a chair. You can be mindful. You can take

01:45:32.699 --> 01:45:34.640
30 seconds to do some breath work before you

01:45:34.640 --> 01:45:37.029
go on inside. You're doing yoga. Yeah. That's

01:45:37.029 --> 01:45:38.710
how I see walking my dog. I leave my phone at

01:45:38.710 --> 01:45:41.529
home. My mind was busy, but I'll try and focus

01:45:41.529 --> 01:45:44.550
on her, my breath. You know, again, tapping into

01:45:44.550 --> 01:45:48.149
nature is a big thing with me and hawks. I don't

01:45:48.149 --> 01:45:50.170
know what it is, but I loved them when I was

01:45:50.170 --> 01:45:52.689
young, kestrels. But we didn't really have any

01:45:52.689 --> 01:45:55.869
around us. It was a TV film. But I've always

01:45:55.869 --> 01:45:57.590
had this thing about hawks. And where I live

01:45:57.590 --> 01:46:00.069
now, there's one I call Steve, Stephen Hawking.

01:46:00.829 --> 01:46:03.109
Um, there's lots of them, of course, but you

01:46:03.109 --> 01:46:04.970
know, Steve will show up when I'm thinking about

01:46:04.970 --> 01:46:06.770
things that, and then blimmin number three, four,

01:46:06.829 --> 01:46:10.689
three all the time everywhere. But, um, yeah,

01:46:10.770 --> 01:46:12.829
but just back to the point, you can have what

01:46:12.829 --> 01:46:15.229
they call moving meditation, whether you're just

01:46:15.229 --> 01:46:17.149
hiking through a forest, whether you're walking

01:46:17.149 --> 01:46:20.010
your dog, you know, you can sit in traffic and

01:46:20.010 --> 01:46:22.569
do breath work and straighten your spine, you

01:46:22.569 --> 01:46:24.710
know? So there's so many opportunities to just

01:46:24.710 --> 01:46:27.770
take those little micro moments to, to tap back

01:46:27.770 --> 01:46:30.600
into being present. Yeah, and as part of that

01:46:30.600 --> 01:46:32.600
yoga for first responders instructor school,

01:46:32.659 --> 01:46:35.239
you've got to come back before you get your certification.

01:46:35.279 --> 01:46:37.640
It's probably one of the most intense courses

01:46:37.640 --> 01:46:39.859
I've taken in my fire service career, the in

01:46:39.859 --> 01:46:42.640
-person and the online side of things. It was

01:46:42.640 --> 01:46:45.239
a five or six days of 12 to 14 hours every day

01:46:45.239 --> 01:46:47.260
doing yoga and learning the science behind it

01:46:47.260 --> 01:46:50.279
and everything else. It was super intense. But

01:46:50.279 --> 01:46:53.220
as part of the certification process, you've

01:46:53.220 --> 01:46:55.079
got to come back and teach some classes. So,

01:46:55.079 --> 01:46:57.319
of course, me being a station captain, I was

01:46:57.319 --> 01:47:01.229
like, Guys, guess what? I got to do this. You're

01:47:01.229 --> 01:47:04.210
my guinea pigs. And the first day we did it,

01:47:04.270 --> 01:47:07.609
they were all in. Afterwards, they're both falling

01:47:07.609 --> 01:47:09.609
asleep on the yoga mat and everything because

01:47:09.609 --> 01:47:12.569
they're so relaxed, recovered, whatever you want

01:47:12.569 --> 01:47:15.029
to call it. And the next shift, they come up

01:47:15.029 --> 01:47:18.090
to me and, you know, the first thing that always

01:47:18.090 --> 01:47:21.569
comes up is, what's for dinner? One of them came

01:47:21.569 --> 01:47:23.329
up to me and said, hey, Cap, can we do that yoga

01:47:23.329 --> 01:47:26.750
stuff again today? It took one session for them

01:47:26.750 --> 01:47:29.449
to realize the value of it, to understand it.

01:47:30.850 --> 01:47:34.770
100%. Well, so that's, you know, you're accumulating

01:47:34.770 --> 01:47:38.810
these tools now. When we sat down, I remember

01:47:38.810 --> 01:47:40.590
even thinking, because we've talked before, you

01:47:40.590 --> 01:47:41.930
know, you come to the house, you talk on the

01:47:41.930 --> 01:47:45.310
phone. um that there seemed to be a maelstrom

01:47:45.310 --> 01:47:47.430
in your mind at that point so when we talked

01:47:47.430 --> 01:47:49.770
you said what you were doing and then and then

01:47:49.770 --> 01:47:52.409
you'd been through some healing modalities and

01:47:52.409 --> 01:47:55.229
well then now is the time to talk right but so

01:47:55.229 --> 01:47:58.270
talk to me about prior to the siren project where

01:47:58.270 --> 01:48:01.289
had you found yourself and and was there was

01:48:01.289 --> 01:48:03.350
there a sense that that there was something else

01:48:03.350 --> 01:48:06.729
that you were missing uh for sure i once again

01:48:06.729 --> 01:48:08.630
i had all these tools and i was like all right

01:48:08.630 --> 01:48:10.350
this one's not working this time this one's not

01:48:10.350 --> 01:48:12.920
working this one's not working i guess it's Time

01:48:12.920 --> 01:48:15.880
to make a trip to Harbor Freight and buy whatever's

01:48:15.880 --> 01:48:20.199
next on the shelf. And like I said, I listened

01:48:20.199 --> 01:48:23.079
to podcasts. So I heard you talking to Angela

01:48:23.079 --> 01:48:27.880
on your podcast. And it's crazy. Right away,

01:48:27.960 --> 01:48:32.239
I went into doing some research. And I'd listened

01:48:32.239 --> 01:48:34.600
to a couple other podcasts of Special Operator,

01:48:34.659 --> 01:48:39.100
Sean Ryan Show, some other things. And was intrigued

01:48:39.100 --> 01:48:43.420
by, once again, the natural side of things. That

01:48:43.420 --> 01:48:46.380
often are referred to as alternative medicines

01:48:46.380 --> 01:48:52.739
when they're the original medicines. And I kind

01:48:52.739 --> 01:48:55.220
of did some research and reached out and then

01:48:55.220 --> 01:48:59.460
learned more about the program and was able to

01:48:59.460 --> 01:49:02.640
make connections and contacts. And it's becoming

01:49:02.640 --> 01:49:05.300
pretty popular. So a couple of months went by

01:49:05.300 --> 01:49:08.500
and didn't hear anything back. And then heard

01:49:08.500 --> 01:49:10.180
that they had some openings on one of their wellness

01:49:10.180 --> 01:49:16.039
retreats. From day one, I was blown away by the

01:49:16.039 --> 01:49:18.600
preparation side of things, that it's not just

01:49:18.600 --> 01:49:21.380
showing up and doing the retreat, but it's also

01:49:21.380 --> 01:49:23.359
what you do before to prepare yourself for your

01:49:23.359 --> 01:49:27.300
vessel. Cut out caffeine, you cut out all the

01:49:27.300 --> 01:49:29.659
inflammatory things that we put into our bodies

01:49:29.659 --> 01:49:32.380
to prepare your vessel to be ready to receive

01:49:32.380 --> 01:49:34.520
whatever healing it needs to receive. And then

01:49:34.520 --> 01:49:37.699
you go on the retreat and there's... huge support

01:49:37.699 --> 01:49:40.439
on the retreat. There's medical support, there's

01:49:40.439 --> 01:49:42.680
drug screenings, there's all kinds of stuff.

01:49:42.859 --> 01:49:45.819
Um, there is group counseling and therapy. There's

01:49:45.819 --> 01:49:47.939
individual counseling and therapy. And there's,

01:49:47.939 --> 01:49:50.500
there's other many things that happen on those

01:49:50.500 --> 01:49:52.279
retreats. It's not just going to the jungle to

01:49:52.279 --> 01:49:56.039
get healed. Um, and, uh, it was a very powerful

01:49:56.039 --> 01:49:57.840
experience for me, but the thing that impressed

01:49:57.840 --> 01:50:01.180
me as well is they also include the integration

01:50:01.180 --> 01:50:03.439
side of things and the supporters of all that.

01:50:03.689 --> 01:50:06.109
So the discussion I had with my wife is like,

01:50:06.170 --> 01:50:09.109
hey, I'm going to go do this thing. And after

01:50:09.109 --> 01:50:11.609
the fact, there is power in a pilgrimage to find

01:50:11.609 --> 01:50:14.090
yourself. We talk about all the religions and

01:50:14.090 --> 01:50:16.930
there's certain religions that say go to Mecca.

01:50:17.270 --> 01:50:19.250
That's their one thing in their life is to make

01:50:19.250 --> 01:50:22.329
it to Mecca and to do this worship and whatever

01:50:22.329 --> 01:50:24.909
it takes to get there. And I think there's powerful

01:50:24.909 --> 01:50:27.409
that pilgrimage. I had it when I did my missionary

01:50:27.409 --> 01:50:30.569
work in Chile and South America that led me to

01:50:30.569 --> 01:50:34.880
some healing and some tools in my toolbox. Um,

01:50:34.880 --> 01:50:38.779
and I was able to go to with this iron project

01:50:38.779 --> 01:50:40.800
to one of their retreats and that the healing

01:50:40.800 --> 01:50:44.180
that happened there was, um, very, very impactful.

01:50:45.180 --> 01:50:56.880
It gave me not what I wanted, but what I needed.

01:50:59.159 --> 01:51:01.840
And to get there, the only way to is through.

01:51:03.560 --> 01:51:05.920
It was not a pleasant experience. It took me

01:51:05.920 --> 01:51:10.199
to some pretty dark, dark places. And at one

01:51:10.199 --> 01:51:15.220
point in one of the sessions as I was struggling

01:51:15.220 --> 01:51:19.079
in some of those dark places, Andrea Lucy, who

01:51:19.079 --> 01:51:21.119
she would be phenomenal to get on the podcast.

01:51:21.239 --> 01:51:22.840
When I was there, I asked her, I said, Andrea,

01:51:23.140 --> 01:51:24.859
have you ever done podcasts? And she's like,

01:51:24.939 --> 01:51:27.960
no, I'm not a fan of them because I don't see

01:51:27.960 --> 01:51:30.239
myself as a subject matter expert when it comes

01:51:30.239 --> 01:51:36.689
to this kind of stuff. And she pulled me out

01:51:36.689 --> 01:51:40.289
of that point and she said, where's your hang

01:51:40.289 --> 01:51:44.130
up? And I said, there's just so much darkness,

01:51:44.329 --> 01:51:50.090
so much pain and darkness. I don't feel worthy

01:51:50.090 --> 01:51:57.289
of the positive feelings. I just, I don't, I

01:51:57.289 --> 01:51:59.189
haven't felt for so many years. I don't want

01:51:59.189 --> 01:52:02.130
to feel again. Because I'm afraid it's going

01:52:02.130 --> 01:52:05.970
to be overwhelming. That I won't know how to

01:52:05.970 --> 01:52:08.109
respond to it. And I won't know how to handle

01:52:08.109 --> 01:52:12.850
it. She told me, you're doing the right thing

01:52:12.850 --> 01:52:14.470
then. You're doing what you have to. And I remember

01:52:14.470 --> 01:52:16.189
Tim, after one of the other sessions, looked

01:52:16.189 --> 01:52:22.609
at me. He said, dude, you're a fighter. And I

01:52:22.609 --> 01:52:24.710
looked at him and gave him a hug. I said, yeah,

01:52:24.789 --> 01:52:27.609
that's the problem. I don't know how to surrender.

01:52:30.320 --> 01:52:33.000
And the things that we did on those retreats

01:52:33.000 --> 01:52:35.500
opened the door and the windows to me to not

01:52:35.500 --> 01:52:38.659
be super Zen and everything's hunky dory and

01:52:38.659 --> 01:52:41.279
everything's beautiful. But it allowed me a lot

01:52:41.279 --> 01:52:45.539
of self -awareness to know that this is happening

01:52:45.539 --> 01:52:48.140
and I feel this way and this is why it's happening

01:52:48.140 --> 01:52:53.600
that way. And it's all part of the process. And

01:52:53.600 --> 01:52:55.579
I was able to connect a lot of people that were

01:52:55.579 --> 01:52:58.289
on. at that retreat they were all firefighters

01:52:58.289 --> 01:53:00.229
that were there at the time and some of them

01:53:00.229 --> 01:53:02.789
some of your former guests and uh there's some

01:53:02.789 --> 01:53:05.869
of uh some of your guests that you had on the

01:53:05.869 --> 01:53:07.890
past that are getting ready to do their own journey

01:53:07.890 --> 01:53:12.310
as well and uh it's been cool to kind of commiserate

01:53:12.310 --> 01:53:14.529
with them because once again it was not a pleasant

01:53:14.529 --> 01:53:17.250
experience for me but to have others there witness

01:53:17.250 --> 01:53:19.750
the things that i go through and uh reassure

01:53:19.750 --> 01:53:25.359
me that um i'm worth it And one of those people

01:53:25.359 --> 01:53:28.079
that from my past, the call I ran in one of my

01:53:28.079 --> 01:53:31.060
departments, her name was impressed upon my head.

01:53:31.079 --> 01:53:33.399
And I try to be very mindful of if somebody's

01:53:33.399 --> 01:53:35.779
name or presence is impressed upon my name or

01:53:35.779 --> 01:53:37.720
my heart and make it a point to text them or

01:53:37.720 --> 01:53:39.300
reach out to them. Hey, I'm thinking of you.

01:53:39.699 --> 01:53:43.079
And that's all it takes is to reach out. And

01:53:43.079 --> 01:53:46.880
so once again, I'd run calls on her husband.

01:53:46.899 --> 01:53:50.119
He's since passed. I was there in kind of a moral

01:53:50.119 --> 01:53:52.279
support afterwards and she owns her own business.

01:53:52.319 --> 01:53:54.199
So I stopped by her business just out of whim,

01:53:54.340 --> 01:53:56.720
got out of training early, went down, went in

01:53:56.720 --> 01:53:58.220
and talked to her. And then we spend the next

01:53:58.220 --> 01:54:00.220
two hours talking about struggles. She's having

01:54:00.220 --> 01:54:03.439
struggles. Her daughter's having the retreat.

01:54:03.539 --> 01:54:05.680
I went on and some of the healing factors that

01:54:05.680 --> 01:54:09.359
went on in that just to be able to connect. I

01:54:09.359 --> 01:54:11.760
said, you know what? Give your daughter my number.

01:54:11.819 --> 01:54:14.239
She's struggling. Have her give me a call. I'm

01:54:14.239 --> 01:54:16.260
training peer support stuff. I know she's not

01:54:16.260 --> 01:54:19.899
a firefighter, but. I'm at a place and perspective

01:54:19.899 --> 01:54:22.399
where I can share healing with other people at

01:54:22.399 --> 01:54:25.920
this point. She said, you know what? When she

01:54:25.920 --> 01:54:28.060
comes back to town, I want you to meet her because

01:54:28.060 --> 01:54:31.119
you can't get the full mark experience just talking

01:54:31.119 --> 01:54:34.319
on the phone. You have to be in present. And

01:54:34.319 --> 01:54:36.479
that's the power of presence to me. That's not

01:54:36.479 --> 01:54:39.279
that I'm perfect at it or I do everything good.

01:54:39.500 --> 01:54:41.659
You know what? I'm still, I probably got more

01:54:41.659 --> 01:54:43.920
of a hair trigger now since my retreat than I

01:54:43.920 --> 01:54:46.720
did beforehand because I don't have time for

01:54:46.720 --> 01:54:49.630
the BS anymore. Don't tell me the fluff. Tell

01:54:49.630 --> 01:54:50.909
me what the problem is and how we're going to

01:54:50.909 --> 01:54:53.409
fix it. And we'll get on to things. You know,

01:54:53.430 --> 01:54:56.770
I can relate to that, right? Yeah. Don't tell

01:54:56.770 --> 01:55:01.550
me the BS because you can't BS a BSer. And that's

01:55:01.550 --> 01:55:04.229
in the fire service and public safety. All too

01:55:04.229 --> 01:55:06.409
often, we see the curtains and the man behind

01:55:06.409 --> 01:55:08.449
the curtain that administration tries to pull

01:55:08.449 --> 01:55:12.170
in front of us. Don't treat us like we're stupid.

01:55:12.350 --> 01:55:14.390
We know what's going on and we understand what's

01:55:14.390 --> 01:55:18.440
going on. Just tell us what's going on. Yeah,

01:55:18.440 --> 01:55:20.100
100%. I mean, this goes back to what we were

01:55:20.100 --> 01:55:23.220
saying earlier. It's about caring. Don't say

01:55:23.220 --> 01:55:25.399
that you care as you stand there at the lectern

01:55:25.399 --> 01:55:27.859
at a funeral and no one's seen you in the station

01:55:27.859 --> 01:55:31.119
for five years and then go back to doing everything

01:55:31.119 --> 01:55:34.140
the same way. One thing that I've heard from

01:55:34.140 --> 01:55:35.859
a lot of people that have had so much success

01:55:35.859 --> 01:55:38.659
with the kind of holistic plant medicine journeys

01:55:38.659 --> 01:55:43.859
is, like you said, there's no such thing. There

01:55:43.859 --> 01:55:48.300
is no magic bullet, magic pill. from you know

01:55:48.300 --> 01:55:52.439
other pharmaceutical routes so let's say mdma

01:55:52.439 --> 01:55:56.439
ketamine where there's really success to take

01:55:56.439 --> 01:55:58.300
mdma for example it's not something that people

01:55:58.300 --> 01:56:00.579
give you and you go away and take it you sit

01:56:00.579 --> 01:56:04.079
down with a therapist and you take mdma and it

01:56:04.079 --> 01:56:06.699
you know allows you to kind of drop the guard

01:56:06.699 --> 01:56:08.460
and access some of these boxes and obviously

01:56:08.460 --> 01:56:11.180
ketamine is more of a kind of psychedelic element

01:56:11.180 --> 01:56:12.600
as well and you're going to have even deeper

01:56:12.600 --> 01:56:15.949
journeys right But I've had people on the show

01:56:15.949 --> 01:56:17.649
and they said, well, I tried ketamine. What happened

01:56:17.649 --> 01:56:20.050
is they were infused and then the person walked

01:56:20.050 --> 01:56:24.369
away. So the proverbial closet door was open,

01:56:24.449 --> 01:56:26.090
but no one was there to help them actually sort

01:56:26.090 --> 01:56:29.390
through what they found. What is your perspective

01:56:29.390 --> 01:56:32.409
with this unique route that you ended up taking

01:56:32.409 --> 01:56:36.750
as far as what's next? It's truly about set and

01:56:36.750 --> 01:56:40.210
setting. It's really not about the destination.

01:56:41.069 --> 01:56:45.600
It's about the journey. because it's changed

01:56:45.600 --> 01:56:47.319
my mindset. One of the things I brought back

01:56:47.319 --> 01:56:48.939
from my retreat that we started doing at the

01:56:48.939 --> 01:56:51.560
firehouse is a gratitude practice. So every meal

01:56:51.560 --> 01:56:54.260
on the retreat, we would share three things that

01:56:54.260 --> 01:56:58.479
we were grateful for. So I, of course, naturally,

01:56:58.560 --> 01:57:00.359
I was like, this is kind of pretty cool and it

01:57:00.359 --> 01:57:03.159
helps me. It's kind of hokey. It's kind of kumbaya,

01:57:03.319 --> 01:57:06.300
hold our hands, stand in a circle type thing.

01:57:06.600 --> 01:57:08.979
So I started doing it, instituting it. It's like

01:57:08.979 --> 01:57:13.829
at the dinner table. You know what happens at

01:57:13.829 --> 01:57:15.449
the firehouse dinner table? It's where we solve

01:57:15.449 --> 01:57:17.350
the world's problems and where we bust each other's

01:57:17.350 --> 01:57:20.510
chops. But I came back from this retreat. I was

01:57:20.510 --> 01:57:22.430
like, hey, we did this on the retreat and I really

01:57:22.430 --> 01:57:24.529
liked it. So I'd appreciate it if you guys would

01:57:24.529 --> 01:57:29.109
do this with me. I'll start because even with

01:57:29.109 --> 01:57:31.489
all the leadership classes that we take or the

01:57:31.489 --> 01:57:33.710
focus on leadership, it's what you practice.

01:57:34.510 --> 01:57:36.710
It's the walk that you walk that people are going

01:57:36.710 --> 01:57:39.229
to. So unless you show your own vulnerability

01:57:39.229 --> 01:57:42.239
and authenticity first. Others aren't going to

01:57:42.239 --> 01:57:45.220
buy into it. So I shared my gratitude, three

01:57:45.220 --> 01:57:47.720
things that I'm grateful for. And then we went

01:57:47.720 --> 01:57:50.739
around the table and everybody did it. And of

01:57:50.739 --> 01:57:53.180
course, at first it was the eye roll of whatever

01:57:53.180 --> 01:57:56.340
cap we're going to do this. Okay, whatever. But

01:57:56.340 --> 01:57:59.460
at that dinner table, I've got seasoned salty

01:57:59.460 --> 01:58:01.500
guys that are getting ready to retire in 200

01:58:01.500 --> 01:58:03.760
days. I got the guys that have been on the job

01:58:03.760 --> 01:58:06.180
for two years a year. I've got a battalion chief

01:58:06.180 --> 01:58:10.279
that's been there for 30 plus years. We're all

01:58:10.279 --> 01:58:12.220
sharing what we're grateful and thankful for

01:58:12.220 --> 01:58:15.600
from different perspectives. And by about the

01:58:15.600 --> 01:58:18.020
third or fourth time doing this, one of my drivers

01:58:18.020 --> 01:58:22.720
shared that I'm grateful for my wife and my marriage

01:58:22.720 --> 01:58:24.739
and my relationship and where we are. A year

01:58:24.739 --> 01:58:27.380
and a half ago, I wouldn't think I would still

01:58:27.380 --> 01:58:37.800
be married, but I am. And it was powerful. To

01:58:37.800 --> 01:58:40.979
share from that vulnerable place where even though

01:58:40.979 --> 01:58:42.720
we're still going to bust each other's chops,

01:58:42.939 --> 01:58:46.460
that there was still enough connection in that

01:58:46.460 --> 01:58:49.500
group to be able to share what's actually going

01:58:49.500 --> 01:58:51.439
on in your life. And not just the shit times,

01:58:51.560 --> 01:58:54.619
but the good times as well. I was in a bad space.

01:58:54.800 --> 01:58:57.640
I'm in a good space now. It's like the experience

01:58:57.640 --> 01:59:01.479
from the 1950s with the rats on Hope. They put

01:59:01.479 --> 01:59:05.319
these rats in a big thing of water to see how

01:59:05.319 --> 01:59:07.430
long it would take him to drown. And after 10,

01:59:07.489 --> 01:59:09.609
15 minutes, the rats started sinking and they

01:59:09.609 --> 01:59:12.029
let them drown to a point where they pulled the

01:59:12.029 --> 01:59:16.090
rats out, revived them, dried them off. They'd

01:59:16.090 --> 01:59:19.850
been saved. They put the rats back in the water.

01:59:21.430 --> 01:59:25.750
60 hours went by. The rat was still swimming

01:59:25.750 --> 01:59:28.189
in the water because he had hope that somebody

01:59:28.189 --> 01:59:31.140
was going to get him out of the shit. Because

01:59:31.140 --> 01:59:32.920
it had happened before. They'd been to a dark

01:59:32.920 --> 01:59:34.699
place. They started drowning. Somebody saved

01:59:34.699 --> 01:59:37.640
them. So when we provide that hope, that care,

01:59:37.779 --> 01:59:40.699
that understanding that I've been there and there's

01:59:40.699 --> 01:59:47.220
light on the other side, one more light. There's

01:59:47.220 --> 01:59:51.279
power in that. It reminds me of that other proverb

01:59:51.279 --> 01:59:55.569
where the man stuck in the hole. And the doctor

01:59:55.569 --> 01:59:57.869
walks by and they shout, doctor, doctor, can

01:59:57.869 --> 01:59:59.770
you help me? And he writes a prescription and

01:59:59.770 --> 02:00:02.829
throws it down the hole. And then I think a preacher

02:00:02.829 --> 02:00:05.109
comes by and then they throw down a Bible or,

02:00:05.130 --> 02:00:07.609
you know, a Quran or whatever, whatever book

02:00:07.609 --> 02:00:10.590
would be. And then the third time someone comes

02:00:10.590 --> 02:00:12.289
by and he's like, please, please, can you help

02:00:12.289 --> 02:00:15.270
me? And the guy jumps in the hole and he goes,

02:00:15.310 --> 02:00:18.750
what are you doing? So, you know, I forget exactly

02:00:18.750 --> 02:00:21.390
what the preface is. And he goes. you know how

02:00:21.390 --> 02:00:22.729
are you going to be able to help me he goes because

02:00:22.729 --> 02:00:26.109
i've been here before i know how to get out and

02:00:26.109 --> 02:00:28.869
that's just it you know and again that that hand

02:00:28.869 --> 02:00:31.689
that's reaching down to the rat that's someone

02:00:31.689 --> 02:00:34.609
who has become that beacon of light and this

02:00:34.609 --> 02:00:38.109
post -traumatic growth the ability and you mentioned

02:00:38.109 --> 02:00:40.729
it before we hit record when you've been through

02:00:40.729 --> 02:00:42.829
some of these healing journeys and your men and

02:00:42.829 --> 02:00:46.159
women know what you've been through And now they're

02:00:46.159 --> 02:00:47.840
coming out of the woodwork saying, I'm hurting

02:00:47.840 --> 02:00:51.960
too. And the crazy thing is if you look at, especially

02:00:51.960 --> 02:00:54.300
let's say 10 years ago, we're sitting at a firehouse

02:00:54.300 --> 02:00:58.119
table now. Everyone you look at is just fine

02:00:58.119 --> 02:01:02.880
to you. And inside, you're feeling the way you're

02:01:02.880 --> 02:01:05.460
feeling. But if you could climb inside the ear

02:01:05.460 --> 02:01:07.460
holes of so many other ones around the table,

02:01:07.479 --> 02:01:10.260
you realize that they were struggling too. And

02:01:10.260 --> 02:01:12.399
going back to the compassion, all the things

02:01:12.399 --> 02:01:15.880
we talked about earlier. What is lost on us,

02:01:15.880 --> 02:01:18.300
what is lost on law enforcement, the military,

02:01:18.439 --> 02:01:22.340
corrections, dispatchers even, is especially

02:01:22.340 --> 02:01:26.880
us. We forget that it was kindness, compassion

02:01:26.880 --> 02:01:30.340
and service that sent us into uniform. That is

02:01:30.340 --> 02:01:33.659
a beautiful, loving, arguably feminine quality

02:01:33.659 --> 02:01:37.659
that sent us in. And then we get in. And we think

02:01:37.659 --> 02:01:40.380
that we're supposed to be this pseudo -stoic,

02:01:40.380 --> 02:01:43.039
stone -faced responder that's never fazed by

02:01:43.039 --> 02:01:45.500
anything, that can, you know, sleep when I'm

02:01:45.500 --> 02:01:48.399
dead and all this bullshit. But that's what's

02:01:48.399 --> 02:01:51.899
killing us. Negating the fact that it was actually

02:01:51.899 --> 02:01:54.359
kindness and compassion that burns in our heart,

02:01:54.399 --> 02:01:57.180
that put us into this uniform. What we do is

02:01:57.180 --> 02:02:00.039
a physical action. You know, going into a second

02:02:00.039 --> 02:02:02.619
-story building, you know, into a VES, a room.

02:02:03.199 --> 02:02:05.060
Or, you know, going over the side of a bridge

02:02:05.060 --> 02:02:07.340
to rescue someone who's dangling from a car.

02:02:07.420 --> 02:02:10.220
Whatever it is, that's the physical action. And

02:02:10.220 --> 02:02:12.500
we need to have that. You know, as I've always

02:02:12.500 --> 02:02:15.760
said, we pull up on some bloody, bloody car scene.

02:02:15.859 --> 02:02:17.739
You can't be queening out going, oh my God, there's

02:02:17.739 --> 02:02:19.640
so much blood. You know, that's not going to

02:02:19.640 --> 02:02:22.340
do well at that moment. So you go into game face

02:02:22.340 --> 02:02:25.640
and it absolutely has a place. But then after,

02:02:25.859 --> 02:02:28.859
it's okay to be vulnerable. And the biggest,

02:02:29.159 --> 02:02:31.619
you know, the greatest trick the devil ever pulled.

02:02:32.590 --> 02:02:35.449
was thinking that vulnerability is weakness.

02:02:36.229 --> 02:02:38.390
Vulnerability is the biggest fucking superpower,

02:02:38.649 --> 02:02:41.590
the biggest act of courage you can have. And

02:02:41.590 --> 02:02:44.810
I think that is one thing that we can use as

02:02:44.810 --> 02:02:47.569
a tool for helping other people. You see someone's

02:02:47.569 --> 02:02:49.909
not doing well, you know, you say, you know,

02:02:49.949 --> 02:02:51.550
how are you doing? Oh, I'm fine. No, no, no.

02:02:51.850 --> 02:02:54.449
How are you really doing? And then you start

02:02:54.449 --> 02:02:57.369
with, well, let me tell you about how I was doing

02:02:57.369 --> 02:03:00.069
recently. And then they're like, fuck, I had

02:03:00.069 --> 02:03:03.199
no idea. Well, actually, I've been going through

02:03:03.199 --> 02:03:05.939
some stuff with my wife, you know, whatever the

02:03:05.939 --> 02:03:08.260
thing, I lost my dog and it broke my fucking

02:03:08.260 --> 02:03:10.699
heart, whatever. And I think this, this is what

02:03:10.699 --> 02:03:12.579
we've got to remember is that we are yin and

02:03:12.579 --> 02:03:16.199
yang. But if we lose that, I always forget, I

02:03:16.199 --> 02:03:19.180
think it's yin. If we lose that, that soft part,

02:03:19.340 --> 02:03:21.220
you know, the beautiful, kind, compassionate

02:03:21.220 --> 02:03:23.779
servant element, then you become a white circle.

02:03:24.100 --> 02:03:28.319
You become Robocop. Right. You know, so. And

02:03:28.319 --> 02:03:30.640
tapping back into the very thing that is the

02:03:30.640 --> 02:03:33.619
nucleus of what it means to be a firefighter,

02:03:33.619 --> 02:03:36.779
a paramedic, a police officer, that is how I

02:03:36.779 --> 02:03:39.159
think we start clawing our way back and having

02:03:39.159 --> 02:03:41.279
a table full of people that are courageously

02:03:41.279 --> 02:03:44.180
vulnerable and truly saying, you know what, I'm

02:03:44.180 --> 02:03:46.520
not doing well today. And everyone else understanding

02:03:46.520 --> 02:03:50.119
and saying the right things of support, not pouring

02:03:50.119 --> 02:03:53.140
on guilt and shame, some facade of, you know,

02:03:53.220 --> 02:03:56.489
pseudo masculinity. That is, I think, how we're

02:03:56.489 --> 02:03:57.989
really going to move the needle in this mental

02:03:57.989 --> 02:04:00.789
health conversation. 100%. And that's what, at

02:04:00.789 --> 02:04:03.010
this point, and I know we've been going for some

02:04:03.010 --> 02:04:05.229
time now. At this point, that's what I've learned

02:04:05.229 --> 02:04:09.210
the most in my journey is the power of being

02:04:09.210 --> 02:04:12.569
human. Because all too often as first responders,

02:04:12.750 --> 02:04:15.670
we become really good at compartmentalizing things

02:04:15.670 --> 02:04:18.409
so that we can do our job. And I feel human again.

02:04:19.470 --> 02:04:22.789
We ran a pediatric arrest the other day, probably

02:04:22.789 --> 02:04:26.289
a SIDS death. It ended up transporting the child.

02:04:26.470 --> 02:04:29.170
And I remember the chaos. We were on scene and

02:04:29.170 --> 02:04:32.350
the family was of a different, we've talked about

02:04:32.350 --> 02:04:37.630
religion and ethnicities. This one, the females

02:04:37.630 --> 02:04:40.390
had the hijab on and everything else. And definitely

02:04:40.390 --> 02:04:41.810
a different culture, different understanding.

02:04:42.430 --> 02:04:46.090
But what I appreciate most about the other cultures

02:04:46.090 --> 02:04:51.020
is they know how to grieve. And ultimately, we

02:04:51.020 --> 02:04:53.060
transported the child. And I remember being in

02:04:53.060 --> 02:04:55.000
there. And finally, we got some more information

02:04:55.000 --> 02:04:59.000
that the child had been down longer than we thought.

02:04:59.380 --> 02:05:01.119
So the doctor was going to make the decision

02:05:01.119 --> 02:05:04.000
to call it. Well, in the time, mom and dad had

02:05:04.000 --> 02:05:05.579
showed up and we're sitting in the hallway outside

02:05:05.579 --> 02:05:08.800
the trauma room. And doctor's like, I'm going

02:05:08.800 --> 02:05:11.680
to go tell mom and then let her come in and see

02:05:11.680 --> 02:05:13.600
that we're doing everything for the child and

02:05:13.600 --> 02:05:17.270
then terminate efforts. So I was standing in

02:05:17.270 --> 02:05:19.090
the hallway and the doctor walked out and he

02:05:19.090 --> 02:05:22.010
just as cold as cold can be, ma 'am, we've done

02:05:22.010 --> 02:05:23.909
everything that we can medically. Your son's

02:05:23.909 --> 02:05:29.149
dead. Compassion fatigue. And I stood there and

02:05:29.149 --> 02:05:32.449
I watched it happen. And it was like someone

02:05:32.449 --> 02:05:36.050
punched me in the chest. And then I watched the

02:05:36.050 --> 02:05:38.630
mom and dad go in there and mom just break down.

02:05:39.109 --> 02:05:41.350
My baby, you're my boy. You're my boy. You're

02:05:41.350 --> 02:05:43.729
my baby. And at that point, I look over at the

02:05:43.729 --> 02:05:45.590
respiratory therapist that's bagging the patient

02:05:45.590 --> 02:05:47.710
and the tears automatically start welling up

02:05:47.710 --> 02:05:51.010
in her eyes. So I walk over to the respiratory

02:05:51.010 --> 02:05:53.470
therapist. I said, hey, can I take over for you?

02:05:54.409 --> 02:05:56.649
And she said, yes, please. So, I mean, I'm a

02:05:56.649 --> 02:05:59.029
paramedic. I'm not even a transport paramedic.

02:05:59.029 --> 02:06:01.569
I'm a firefighter that rode in. But I was able

02:06:01.569 --> 02:06:04.710
to sit there and take over the bagging of a code

02:06:04.710 --> 02:06:09.090
that we're going to call anyways to allow a health

02:06:09.090 --> 02:06:12.449
care provider that was. And viscerally affected

02:06:12.449 --> 02:06:15.350
by seeing a mother grieve over her child to step

02:06:15.350 --> 02:06:17.029
on the other side of the curtain and to be able

02:06:17.029 --> 02:06:19.930
to grieve right away. And after it was called,

02:06:19.970 --> 02:06:23.189
she came up to me. She said, thank you. And the

02:06:23.189 --> 02:06:25.789
same thing, I remember mom and dad sitting in

02:06:25.789 --> 02:06:28.529
that trauma room, grieving over the patient.

02:06:28.649 --> 02:06:32.050
Everybody else had left. And there was one nurse

02:06:32.050 --> 02:06:34.590
kind of standing at the door and parents were

02:06:34.590 --> 02:06:36.050
standing there grieving. And I was like, I got

02:06:36.050 --> 02:06:38.630
to go in there and talk to mom. And I walked

02:06:38.630 --> 02:06:41.529
in and I said. I'm sorry for your loss, ma 'am.

02:06:41.689 --> 02:06:43.909
We did everything that we could. I'll be praying

02:06:43.909 --> 02:06:47.289
for you and your family. And not knowing the

02:06:47.289 --> 02:06:49.810
rules of engagement for some customs who males

02:06:49.810 --> 02:06:51.630
shouldn't touch females or whatever, she stood

02:06:51.630 --> 02:06:54.329
up and she gave me a hug. And we just stood there

02:06:54.329 --> 02:07:00.170
and embraced. And I was able to have a human

02:07:00.170 --> 02:07:03.850
moment during a human spiritual time. when they

02:07:03.850 --> 02:07:05.350
were grieving a loved one, to show the human

02:07:05.350 --> 02:07:07.189
side of things. I already did the medical. It

02:07:07.189 --> 02:07:09.649
didn't work. Anything we were going to do wasn't

02:07:09.649 --> 02:07:14.210
going to work. And to share that special time

02:07:14.210 --> 02:07:16.590
and that spiritual moment of that spirit leaving

02:07:16.590 --> 02:07:19.229
the body, but to be able to support mom and dad

02:07:19.229 --> 02:07:22.069
in that time is why we do the job. It's why we

02:07:22.069 --> 02:07:25.550
got into it. To be the care, the compassion,

02:07:25.909 --> 02:07:28.609
to be the light in the darkness when people are

02:07:28.609 --> 02:07:31.239
having their hardest time. And after it was done,

02:07:31.260 --> 02:07:33.380
as I walked out, the nurse mouthed to me. She

02:07:33.380 --> 02:07:36.859
said, thank you again. To witness the human side

02:07:36.859 --> 02:07:38.960
of people. And I think that's how we effectuate

02:07:38.960 --> 02:07:41.260
change. That's how we get over all the BS and

02:07:41.260 --> 02:07:43.920
the moral injury and everything else is. Yes,

02:07:43.920 --> 02:07:47.560
there are times when it comes to work. But we

02:07:47.560 --> 02:07:49.539
need to understand when it's time to return to

02:07:49.539 --> 02:07:55.520
be human. I couldn't agree more. I think that's

02:07:55.520 --> 02:07:56.899
the perfect place to wrap it up. I'm going to

02:07:56.899 --> 02:07:58.560
throw some closing questions at you, but I'm

02:07:58.560 --> 02:08:01.220
just writing that down because that's going to

02:08:01.220 --> 02:08:06.340
be the video for this. I mean, just again, love,

02:08:06.500 --> 02:08:08.760
compassion, kindness, and even going back without

02:08:08.760 --> 02:08:10.420
taking a deep dive because it's the end of the

02:08:10.420 --> 02:08:13.800
conversation, but when the work week, when we

02:08:13.800 --> 02:08:16.079
break down our men and women physically, mentally,

02:08:16.159 --> 02:08:19.279
and emotionally, we rob them of that ability

02:08:19.279 --> 02:08:21.300
to feel, whether it's to be compassionate on

02:08:21.300 --> 02:08:23.880
scene or whether it's to process it after. And

02:08:23.880 --> 02:08:25.220
it's funny because when you were talking about

02:08:25.220 --> 02:08:27.760
being out there when the death notification happened,

02:08:27.880 --> 02:08:32.579
I remember a young guy that had a brain bleed,

02:08:32.659 --> 02:08:35.039
just dropped in a kennel, dropping their dog

02:08:35.039 --> 02:08:36.739
off before they were going to spend a magical

02:08:36.739 --> 02:08:40.600
weekend in a theme park resort. And I was writing

02:08:40.600 --> 02:08:42.840
my report and, you know, I'm here and the door

02:08:42.840 --> 02:08:44.319
for the grieving room is where that plant is,

02:08:44.420 --> 02:08:47.239
you know, 10 feet away. And the person walks

02:08:47.239 --> 02:08:49.399
in to notify and then there's the wails and the

02:08:49.399 --> 02:08:52.250
screams and the code had gone perfectly. technically

02:08:52.250 --> 02:08:54.609
we did it could not have been a more perfect

02:08:54.609 --> 02:08:57.810
code but on the technical side it didn't change

02:08:57.810 --> 02:09:00.229
anything but like you said what needed to be

02:09:00.229 --> 02:09:02.970
done now was the emotional side and you know

02:09:02.970 --> 02:09:05.369
taking care of those people but also remembering

02:09:05.369 --> 02:09:08.890
that those screams affect you talk about guilt

02:09:08.890 --> 02:09:11.529
shame inability to save when you've done everything

02:09:11.529 --> 02:09:14.029
right everything you were trained and yet they

02:09:14.029 --> 02:09:18.060
still die you know so that human side from the

02:09:18.060 --> 02:09:20.539
patient and from the responder. And then, I mean,

02:09:20.560 --> 02:09:22.960
what a beautiful example, looking to your left

02:09:22.960 --> 02:09:24.920
and realizing that, you know, that one member

02:09:24.920 --> 02:09:27.260
of your crew, maybe they've got someone that

02:09:27.260 --> 02:09:29.199
age, maybe they just had something happen and

02:09:29.199 --> 02:09:30.880
you can see something's not quite right. And

02:09:30.880 --> 02:09:33.220
you tell them, look, you know, I want you to

02:09:33.220 --> 02:09:35.239
do me a favor, go, you know, go the engine and

02:09:35.239 --> 02:09:38.180
go do X, Y, and Z, you know, whatever it is.

02:09:38.260 --> 02:09:41.380
So it all comes back, whether it's what we were

02:09:41.380 --> 02:09:43.560
talking about spirituality or whether it's, you

02:09:43.560 --> 02:09:46.979
know, the parenting side or on call. The moment

02:09:46.979 --> 02:09:49.619
we're disconnected from that humanity, that kindness

02:09:49.619 --> 02:09:52.180
and compassion, that's where the problems start.

02:09:52.420 --> 02:09:54.720
And I think the answer is beautiful. We just

02:09:54.720 --> 02:09:56.720
got to tap back into it again and then create

02:09:56.720 --> 02:09:59.560
an environment that allows us to nurture that

02:09:59.560 --> 02:10:02.359
rather than break down our men, women, and even

02:10:02.359 --> 02:10:06.800
children. 100%. All right. Well, then the first

02:10:06.800 --> 02:10:10.460
of the closing questions. Is there a book? Or

02:10:10.460 --> 02:10:12.760
are there books that you love to recommend? It

02:10:12.760 --> 02:10:15.340
can be related to our conversation today or completely

02:10:15.340 --> 02:10:18.579
unrelated. Oh my goodness. Is there one I don't

02:10:18.579 --> 02:10:21.760
recommend? There's a lot of good ones out there.

02:10:22.340 --> 02:10:25.119
One that I've read recently that impacted me

02:10:25.119 --> 02:10:29.359
was The Myth of Normal by Gabor Amate. He's done

02:10:29.359 --> 02:10:31.760
some phenomenal things, but the thing that impacted

02:10:31.760 --> 02:10:34.659
me about that one is his own vulnerability on

02:10:34.659 --> 02:10:37.260
his own. healing journey even though he's a doctor

02:10:37.260 --> 02:10:39.359
and a psychologist and got all these accolades

02:10:39.359 --> 02:10:41.680
he's had his own journey as well so he shares

02:10:41.680 --> 02:10:46.939
in that book um one that i've gifted more than

02:10:46.939 --> 02:10:50.140
anything else other than your books uh kinder

02:10:50.140 --> 02:10:54.500
and one more light um is the boy the mole the

02:10:54.500 --> 02:10:57.020
fox and the horse i love the animation of that

02:10:57.020 --> 02:11:01.439
oh it is absolutely powerful um but one of the

02:11:01.439 --> 02:11:03.039
guys that was on our tribe with siren project

02:11:03.039 --> 02:11:05.430
he's getting ready to have his first kid And

02:11:05.430 --> 02:11:08.789
I sent it to him just because that book's so

02:11:08.789 --> 02:11:11.229
powerful to me. So I've shared that with quite

02:11:11.229 --> 02:11:13.350
a few people that have had children because it's

02:11:13.350 --> 02:11:16.970
the modern day Winnie the Pooh. But the animation,

02:11:17.189 --> 02:11:20.609
the Apple TV animation of it is absolutely powerful.

02:11:21.250 --> 02:11:24.270
Short little blurbs that apply to any side of

02:11:24.270 --> 02:11:26.670
life. So those would be my two off the hand.

02:11:28.409 --> 02:11:31.869
Eric, Olivia's husband, just wrote a book, Stoicism

02:11:31.869 --> 02:11:35.189
for First Responders. That's pretty good as well.

02:11:35.329 --> 02:11:37.949
It's another one I gift a lot because it's inexpensive,

02:11:38.130 --> 02:11:42.229
but it hits home. Brilliant. All right. Well,

02:11:42.289 --> 02:11:45.510
you mentioned the Apple TV version of The Fox,

02:11:45.630 --> 02:11:48.090
The Mole. Yeah. What about other documentaries

02:11:48.090 --> 02:11:51.770
and shows or films? I don't watch a lot of TV,

02:11:51.810 --> 02:11:55.609
a lot of shows, just because I like to be engaged

02:11:55.609 --> 02:11:58.989
in living life. One that I watched, I think it

02:11:58.989 --> 02:12:01.449
was on National Geographic, was Limitless with

02:12:01.449 --> 02:12:03.590
Chris Hemsworth. That was a good show, especially

02:12:03.590 --> 02:12:06.430
the one on mortality. Yes. Yeah. It was very

02:12:06.430 --> 02:12:08.270
powerful. And that's like my post -retirement.

02:12:08.430 --> 02:12:10.909
I was actually intrigued by the death doula side

02:12:10.909 --> 02:12:14.050
of things because of experiences like I just

02:12:14.050 --> 02:12:16.369
shared at the hospital. To be able to be there

02:12:16.369 --> 02:12:18.470
to support the loved ones that have supported.

02:12:18.729 --> 02:12:21.250
Like I say, when my older sister died, she died

02:12:21.250 --> 02:12:25.329
at home on hospice. My parents did the end -of

02:12:25.329 --> 02:12:27.529
-life care, and there was a lot of powerful to

02:12:27.529 --> 02:12:30.149
the spiritual side of things of having her parish

02:12:30.149 --> 02:12:32.789
in her own home instead of in a facility somewhere.

02:12:33.670 --> 02:12:36.909
I had a guy on a couple times now, Dr. B .J.

02:12:36.949 --> 02:12:40.430
Miller, who is a palliative care physician, but

02:12:40.430 --> 02:12:43.550
he's a double amputee as well. He was on top

02:12:43.550 --> 02:12:47.649
of a streetcar in San Francisco, I think it was.

02:12:47.829 --> 02:12:51.090
I got that right, Berkeley. And they were just

02:12:51.090 --> 02:12:53.340
messing around. And it was just parked. He just

02:12:53.340 --> 02:12:55.199
climbed up the ladder, but didn't realize it

02:12:55.199 --> 02:12:57.460
was charged. And they arced off his wristwatch.

02:12:57.640 --> 02:12:59.720
So he lost an arm and a leg. Yeah, listen to

02:12:59.720 --> 02:13:02.020
that. That was a powerful one. So, yeah. So what

02:13:02.020 --> 02:13:03.939
they did with hospice, though, in that little

02:13:03.939 --> 02:13:05.619
hospice, it was a little home and they baked

02:13:05.619 --> 02:13:07.939
cookies. And they just, you know, looked at it

02:13:07.939 --> 02:13:09.880
as like, well, you know, every day still counts

02:13:09.880 --> 02:13:12.159
just because you're in hospice and you're, you

02:13:12.159 --> 02:13:13.880
know, passing away. What is it that we can do

02:13:13.880 --> 02:13:15.699
to add value today? Right. And then a lot of

02:13:15.699 --> 02:13:17.779
guys that went on this Iron Project journey with

02:13:17.779 --> 02:13:19.819
me, we've had conversations afterwards and their

02:13:19.819 --> 02:13:23.020
experiences on scene. to witness deaths and people

02:13:23.020 --> 02:13:26.079
that kind of stuff is to to view because of their

02:13:26.079 --> 02:13:29.020
own journey and what they went through one of

02:13:29.020 --> 02:13:31.640
the modalities on the the treat is almost like

02:13:31.640 --> 02:13:33.920
a death and a rebirth type of thing so it's moving

02:13:33.920 --> 02:13:37.220
on to the next stage of whatever existence you

02:13:37.220 --> 02:13:40.500
have and their witnesses of death unseen has

02:13:40.500 --> 02:13:42.779
totally their perspectives have changed because

02:13:42.779 --> 02:13:45.600
of their own personal experience with the with

02:13:45.600 --> 02:13:49.060
the medicine so not getting too specific but

02:13:49.060 --> 02:13:51.960
one thing i've heard from certain people that

02:13:51.960 --> 02:13:56.079
take certain plant medicines is almost like a

02:13:56.079 --> 02:13:59.500
celestial experience where you realize that you're

02:13:59.500 --> 02:14:03.560
actually part of everything. 100%. You had that

02:14:03.560 --> 02:14:06.659
too? Yes. There was, like I said, there was a

02:14:06.659 --> 02:14:10.699
lot of darkness, but one of the medicines...

02:14:11.399 --> 02:14:13.880
DMT is what it is. Your body actually produces

02:14:13.880 --> 02:14:17.020
it. So it's not like it's anything out of the

02:14:17.020 --> 02:14:19.060
norm. It's already in your body. And it's one

02:14:19.060 --> 02:14:21.600
of the you feel it most at childbirth. And those

02:14:21.600 --> 02:14:25.460
last before you die, you have a huge DMT dump,

02:14:25.500 --> 02:14:27.140
essentially. So that's when you start seeing

02:14:27.140 --> 02:14:30.260
things and understanding things. And a lot of

02:14:30.260 --> 02:14:32.579
people have those kind of experiences. Yeah,

02:14:32.739 --> 02:14:35.319
it seemed to kind of bolster a lot of people,

02:14:35.340 --> 02:14:37.920
again, more spirituality than religion. But realizing

02:14:37.920 --> 02:14:41.680
that, you know. I mean, every molecule and every

02:14:41.680 --> 02:14:43.859
leaf and every drop of water in the ocean, it's

02:14:43.859 --> 02:14:48.300
all one big kind of, you know, beautiful coalition.

02:14:49.220 --> 02:14:51.939
100%. Brilliant. All right. Well, then you mentioned

02:14:51.939 --> 02:14:55.140
Andrea Lucy. Anyone else you'd recommend to come

02:14:55.140 --> 02:14:57.060
on this show as a guest? Oh, there's so many

02:14:57.060 --> 02:15:00.279
of them. Have you had Jeremy Sanders, Crew First

02:15:00.279 --> 02:15:04.460
Culture? I don't think so. Yeah. Jeremy is very

02:15:04.460 --> 02:15:07.180
well -spoken, and he's had his own personal journey

02:15:07.180 --> 02:15:10.739
and things that he's overcome. Jeremy's a cool

02:15:10.739 --> 02:15:13.779
guy. They've fostered a lot of kids. I think

02:15:13.779 --> 02:15:17.060
they've got eight kids total in all the experiences

02:15:17.060 --> 02:15:19.779
that come with fostering children. And then his

02:15:19.779 --> 02:15:22.460
work journey and his passion for the fire service,

02:15:22.500 --> 02:15:24.600
we got connected through tactical resiliency

02:15:24.600 --> 02:15:27.500
training. But Jeremy's got his own podcast, Crew

02:15:27.500 --> 02:15:31.989
First Culture Podcast, and he's... his approach

02:15:31.989 --> 02:15:34.029
to things would mirror a lot of the things that

02:15:34.029 --> 02:15:37.430
you're into just as far as um like coaching and

02:15:37.430 --> 02:15:41.289
modalities and the how everything that we learn

02:15:41.289 --> 02:15:43.590
in the fire service are tools that every human

02:15:43.590 --> 02:15:46.609
being needs not just first responders so brilliant

02:15:46.609 --> 02:15:48.829
yeah we need to make that happen then all right

02:15:48.829 --> 02:15:50.729
well then uh the last question before we make

02:15:50.729 --> 02:15:53.130
sure everyone knows where to find you what you

02:15:53.130 --> 02:15:56.569
do to decompress oh any number of things my go

02:15:56.569 --> 02:15:59.229
-to here lately is uh One of our guys that just

02:15:59.229 --> 02:16:01.590
passed was a Harley guy, a motorcycle rider.

02:16:01.930 --> 02:16:04.810
And for his celebration of life, he wanted everybody

02:16:04.810 --> 02:16:08.319
to... represent on the motorcycle side of things,

02:16:08.380 --> 02:16:10.819
so not necessarily show up in your class A's.

02:16:10.859 --> 02:16:13.119
He was huge about that connection, brotherhood

02:16:13.119 --> 02:16:16.319
side of things. So I went up to buy a T -shirt

02:16:16.319 --> 02:16:18.199
for a celebration of life and came home with

02:16:18.199 --> 02:16:21.680
a motorcycle. So most expensive T -shirt I ever

02:16:21.680 --> 02:16:23.739
bought. My wife said, you were gone too long,

02:16:23.779 --> 02:16:25.399
and I knew what was happening when I broke the

02:16:25.399 --> 02:16:28.079
news to her. But definitely riding on a motorcycle

02:16:28.079 --> 02:16:32.399
has been one of those flow states, and it's kind

02:16:32.399 --> 02:16:40.149
of like... the iron, the iron never lies. Same

02:16:40.149 --> 02:16:41.549
thing with the motorcycle. If you're not in a

02:16:41.549 --> 02:16:44.329
flow state and 100 % self -aware and aware of

02:16:44.329 --> 02:16:46.190
what's going on, I can tell when it's a good

02:16:46.190 --> 02:16:47.969
day to be on a bike and not a good day to be

02:16:47.969 --> 02:16:51.930
on a bike. So just where my head space is, nature,

02:16:52.209 --> 02:16:56.649
kayaking, hiking, rucking, doing anything outside

02:16:56.649 --> 02:16:59.510
and spending time with my family. My wife and

02:16:59.510 --> 02:17:02.510
I have a newfound relationship since my... Previous

02:17:02.510 --> 02:17:06.530
retreat and my phone, I just looked at it as

02:17:06.530 --> 02:17:08.870
we're talking. She's wishing me good luck on

02:17:08.870 --> 02:17:12.930
the podcast and tell me I'll do great. So before

02:17:12.930 --> 02:17:16.270
my whole purpose of going on my retreat was to

02:17:16.270 --> 02:17:18.870
find myself again. And that's the thing that

02:17:18.870 --> 02:17:20.389
concerned her the most is that I was going to

02:17:20.389 --> 02:17:22.670
go find myself and she wasn't going to be part

02:17:22.670 --> 02:17:27.110
of that anymore. And that was the whole purpose

02:17:27.110 --> 02:17:33.069
was to return to. The husband that she knew and

02:17:33.069 --> 02:17:36.770
loved and married, not the jaded, salty firefighter

02:17:36.770 --> 02:17:40.190
that thinks he needs to save the world. And we've

02:17:40.190 --> 02:17:42.690
been able to reconnect after that. So we're actually

02:17:42.690 --> 02:17:46.870
doing a race at the end of the year that she

02:17:46.870 --> 02:17:49.629
signed up for. Her thing's been running and marathons

02:17:49.629 --> 02:17:51.409
and that kind of stuff. So we signed up for one

02:17:51.409 --> 02:17:56.239
of those kind of endless races where for. every

02:17:56.239 --> 02:17:58.100
25 minutes you go a mile and a half till you

02:17:58.100 --> 02:18:00.299
can't go any longer so she turns 50 this year

02:18:00.299 --> 02:18:03.899
yes i just told my wife sage on a podcast uh

02:18:03.899 --> 02:18:05.840
but she wants to do at least 50 miles on that

02:18:05.840 --> 02:18:08.340
so this year we're tackling that together so

02:18:08.340 --> 02:18:12.739
beautiful yeah yeah i mean again that that salty

02:18:12.739 --> 02:18:15.879
element you know it's it's fatigue yes you know

02:18:15.879 --> 02:18:18.020
like you said all elements emotional physical

02:18:18.020 --> 02:18:22.000
mental it's just breakdown And again, there is

02:18:22.000 --> 02:18:25.059
a good person in 95 % of us. Some just came for

02:18:25.059 --> 02:18:26.659
the benefits and we don't know who they are.

02:18:27.159 --> 02:18:30.219
But there is that servant's heart. And I've always

02:18:30.219 --> 02:18:32.819
said this, some of the most beautiful parents,

02:18:33.280 --> 02:18:35.479
husbands, wives are the men and women that I

02:18:35.479 --> 02:18:38.260
serve with. They're beautiful human beings. But

02:18:38.260 --> 02:18:41.780
I've got a good friend of mine, madly in love,

02:18:41.860 --> 02:18:43.940
head over heels in love with his girlfriend.

02:18:44.059 --> 02:18:46.579
Then he married, then they had children. And

02:18:46.579 --> 02:18:50.299
I've watched him break down. And I think the

02:18:50.299 --> 02:18:52.260
relationship is broken down, the relationship

02:18:52.260 --> 02:18:55.399
with the children. And it's the job. It's the

02:18:55.399 --> 02:18:59.760
hours of the job, the job you can do in a healthy

02:18:59.760 --> 02:19:03.079
way. But you have to give these men and women

02:19:03.079 --> 02:19:06.040
the rest and recovery and support and have that

02:19:06.040 --> 02:19:09.319
culture of nurturing and vulnerability so that

02:19:09.319 --> 02:19:13.139
when you go for 24 hours, you give your all.

02:19:13.579 --> 02:19:16.149
And then when you come home. You can recover

02:19:16.149 --> 02:19:18.530
from it and your family have you home. So you

02:19:18.530 --> 02:19:20.909
can take the baby because the husband or the

02:19:20.909 --> 02:19:22.930
wife has been up for 24 hours, you know, whatever

02:19:22.930 --> 02:19:26.649
the thing is. And it's so, again, it's heartbreaking

02:19:26.649 --> 02:19:28.889
to see the way it is, but it's so encouraging

02:19:28.889 --> 02:19:31.389
to see that we can fix this. Because I'm going

02:19:31.389 --> 02:19:35.989
to give you a perfect example. One of the, Joshua

02:19:35.989 --> 02:19:39.030
Chase read Kinder and he stopped, I think it

02:19:39.030 --> 02:19:41.270
was like chapter four. And he was like, dude,

02:19:41.350 --> 02:19:44.299
I just, that's me. right now oh i had the same

02:19:44.299 --> 02:19:46.899
experience and he went and got counseling and

02:19:46.899 --> 02:19:49.959
he messaged me and said you know the relationship

02:19:49.959 --> 02:19:52.020
with my my wife is much better and we're doing

02:19:52.020 --> 02:19:54.819
this and this and so it's just a case of realizing

02:19:54.819 --> 02:19:57.799
that that's not you yeah that's how you are the

02:19:57.799 --> 02:20:00.020
road rage in there that's the one that stabbed

02:20:00.020 --> 02:20:02.680
me in the gut and that's straight from my fucking

02:20:02.680 --> 02:20:04.819
heart mate yeah and you can probably tell yeah

02:20:04.819 --> 02:20:07.559
yeah definitely that's that I felt that. Yeah.

02:20:07.639 --> 02:20:09.760
Yeah. Yeah. So, but again, you know, I would

02:20:09.760 --> 02:20:11.920
argue I'm a kind person. Right. So I don't want

02:20:11.920 --> 02:20:13.760
to run around being angry. But I mean, how do

02:20:13.760 --> 02:20:16.620
you offset that with you've literally just gone

02:20:16.620 --> 02:20:19.079
to a wreck where the person who caused it driving

02:20:19.079 --> 02:20:22.399
like an asshole is now crying on the curb, feeling

02:20:22.399 --> 02:20:24.319
sorry for themselves, and you're cutting the

02:20:24.319 --> 02:20:26.940
three dead people out of the minivan. It's hard

02:20:26.940 --> 02:20:28.739
to offset that when in the next morning you see

02:20:28.739 --> 02:20:30.899
someone driving like an asshole. And you want

02:20:30.899 --> 02:20:32.520
to drag them out of the car and beat them with

02:20:32.520 --> 02:20:34.579
an inch of their life because you know what's

02:20:34.579 --> 02:20:36.280
going to happen if they keep doing that thing.

02:20:36.520 --> 02:20:39.940
So, you know, it is a hard balance. But the way

02:20:39.940 --> 02:20:42.180
that you offset that is, again, the healthy work

02:20:42.180 --> 02:20:45.520
week, the communication, the removing stigma

02:20:45.520 --> 02:20:47.540
even from the modalities that you found really

02:20:47.540 --> 02:20:50.280
successful recently and allowing our men and

02:20:50.280 --> 02:20:53.239
women to give for 24 hours and then heal for

02:20:53.239 --> 02:20:57.639
72. It's that simple. 100. Yeah. All right. Well,

02:20:57.700 --> 02:21:00.180
for people listening. Where are the best places

02:21:00.180 --> 02:21:03.299
to reach out to you, learn more, anywhere else

02:21:03.299 --> 02:21:05.059
you want to kind of direct them? I don't have

02:21:05.059 --> 02:21:07.440
any social media accounts other than LinkedIn.

02:21:07.459 --> 02:21:10.870
I'm on LinkedIn, so you can find me there. My

02:21:10.870 --> 02:21:15.989
cell phone is always on 678 -614 -9254. Call,

02:21:16.129 --> 02:21:19.270
text. I'm always available to talk. That's probably

02:21:19.270 --> 02:21:22.250
the easiest way to get a hold of me. Once again,

02:21:22.329 --> 02:21:24.270
I know my boundaries. So if I don't have a minute,

02:21:24.370 --> 02:21:26.229
I may tell you, hey, I'll get back to you tomorrow.

02:21:26.370 --> 02:21:28.549
But that's nothing against you. That's all on

02:21:28.549 --> 02:21:32.280
me. Other than that, I teach with tactical resiliency

02:21:32.280 --> 02:21:35.959
training. We'll be at MAFC, teaching our firefighter

02:21:35.959 --> 02:21:38.360
resiliency class. We'll also be at Firemanship

02:21:38.360 --> 02:21:41.940
in Aurora, Illinois. Phenomenal conference, Cody

02:21:41.940 --> 02:21:44.399
Testrill. He'd be another great one to have on

02:21:44.399 --> 02:21:48.700
your podcast. And then, like I say, I work with

02:21:48.700 --> 02:21:51.540
Yoga for First Responders, who's a 511c3 that,

02:21:51.559 --> 02:21:53.520
due to a lot of the budget cuts and the political

02:21:53.520 --> 02:21:57.639
nature, is struggling to fill classes and be

02:21:57.639 --> 02:21:59.840
funded. just due to everything else, even though

02:21:59.840 --> 02:22:02.579
it's such a valuable tool. So I'm just going

02:22:02.579 --> 02:22:04.819
to throw a plug out there for yoga for first

02:22:04.819 --> 02:22:07.860
responders. And if you're looking at donating

02:22:07.860 --> 02:22:10.579
money or have extra money to donate, that's a

02:22:10.579 --> 02:22:14.139
very valuable place because once again, it's

02:22:14.139 --> 02:22:18.959
a upstream savior is what it is. Instead of pulling

02:22:18.959 --> 02:22:21.500
people out of the river, it's better to go upstream

02:22:21.500 --> 02:22:24.000
and find where they're falling in. So it's an

02:22:24.000 --> 02:22:27.399
upstream fix. Also siren project. They're also,

02:22:28.420 --> 02:22:31.719
Through the love and the caring and everything

02:22:31.719 --> 02:22:35.520
that Tim and Angela do, they can use some funding

02:22:35.520 --> 02:22:39.260
as well. Because Siren Project, you cover your

02:22:39.260 --> 02:22:40.959
travel, they cover the rest of the cost of the

02:22:40.959 --> 02:22:44.399
retreat. So get a couple plugs in there for those

02:22:44.399 --> 02:22:46.840
nonprofit agencies that can use all kinds of

02:22:46.840 --> 02:22:49.600
financial support to provide the resources and

02:22:49.600 --> 02:22:53.299
tools that are needed. Well, I've got the show

02:22:53.299 --> 02:22:55.760
of kinder in the works. And when I say in the

02:22:55.760 --> 02:22:59.690
works, like... step one right baby toe you know

02:22:59.690 --> 02:23:01.430
through the door it's not like i've got studios

02:23:01.430 --> 02:23:04.930
and funding and all that stuff but i have a plan

02:23:04.930 --> 02:23:08.010
where there's going to be a parallel thing that

02:23:08.010 --> 02:23:10.430
is actually going to bring light to all these

02:23:10.430 --> 02:23:13.010
tools and i hope that i can include you know

02:23:13.010 --> 02:23:14.309
basically a lot of the ones that you've talked

02:23:14.309 --> 02:23:17.610
about um in one of these platforms so that people

02:23:17.610 --> 02:23:20.750
will realize i can there are tools available

02:23:20.750 --> 02:23:23.809
i can start right my own personal rabbit hole

02:23:23.809 --> 02:23:26.920
of healing today you know, and empower every

02:23:26.920 --> 02:23:29.739
single person and then give them a platform where

02:23:29.739 --> 02:23:31.479
they can get all these resources. And hopefully

02:23:31.479 --> 02:23:34.239
then they'll be front and center, not struggling

02:23:34.239 --> 02:23:36.379
and trying to scrape together funds, but they'll

02:23:36.379 --> 02:23:40.360
be the go -to ones. You know, so yeah, that's

02:23:40.360 --> 02:23:43.399
coming. Come hell or high water, it's going to

02:23:43.399 --> 02:23:45.340
happen. I believe in it. You don't put your mind

02:23:45.340 --> 02:23:46.940
to anything and not accomplish it. You've done

02:23:46.940 --> 02:23:49.879
some amazing things. Thank you for being the

02:23:49.879 --> 02:23:54.579
voice. Well, I want to thank you, mate. I mean,

02:23:54.600 --> 02:23:58.489
honestly. Like this, I would have, you know,

02:23:58.510 --> 02:24:01.110
two episodes if it was just me yapping. It'd

02:24:01.110 --> 02:24:02.989
be the intro to the podcast eight and a half

02:24:02.989 --> 02:24:05.489
years ago. And then I would be an empty episode

02:24:05.489 --> 02:24:06.850
because I wouldn't have learned anything. So

02:24:06.850 --> 02:24:08.770
I wouldn't be able to do the 24 -72 one. But

02:24:08.770 --> 02:24:12.430
every other one, almost 1100, is people like

02:24:12.430 --> 02:24:14.250
you. People that have come on, that have been

02:24:14.250 --> 02:24:16.010
courageously vulnerable, that have shared their

02:24:16.010 --> 02:24:18.670
story, shared their experience, and given hope

02:24:18.670 --> 02:24:21.250
to everyone else that's listening. So I want

02:24:21.250 --> 02:24:23.229
to thank you for being so generous with your

02:24:23.229 --> 02:24:25.030
time and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast

02:24:25.030 --> 02:24:27.809
today. Thanks. I'm deeply humbled and deeply

02:24:27.809 --> 02:24:28.809
honored. Thank you, James.