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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you

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think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome

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to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,

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my name is James Gearing, and this week it is

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my absolute honor to welcome on the show 26 -year

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veteran of the fire service and one of the two

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men behind managing a fire company, John Brunicini.

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Now, for those of you listening, you'll recognize

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that last name. So we discuss a host of topics

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from growing up in a legacy firefighter family,

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the blue card, leadership, firefighter fitness.

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sleep deprivation, managing the humans in the

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fire station, and so much more. Now, before we

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get to this incredible conversation, as I say

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every week, please just take a moment, go to

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whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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almost 1 ,100 episodes now. So all I ask in return

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is that you help share these incredible men and

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women's stories so I can get them to every single

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person on planet Earth who needs to hear them.

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So with that being said, I introduce to you...

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John Brunicini. Enjoy. Well, John, I want to

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start by saying thank you so much for taking

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the time and coming on the Behind the Shield

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podcast. Happy to be here. So where on planet

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Earth are we finding you today? As you can see,

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I have a man cave in the garage where my computer

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is. But I'm in Phoenix, Arizona. I'm hanging

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out at home. Sorry, I was a little late. I got

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our time zones mixed up, so I apologize. No problem.

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Isn't Arizona part of your state? They change

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with the times, and part of them, they don't

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change with the times. Is that right? the whole

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state of arizona does not change i think us in

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hawaii are the only two out of the 50 that don't

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yeah i think the rest of us need to join you

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it's insanity even if you look at the sleep medicine

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that they have more suicides and heart attacks

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the day we lose sleep than any other day of the

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year excuse me of the year oh wow so yeah it

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makes no sense these days All right. Well, then

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let's start at the very beginning. Obviously,

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you know, with the last name, a lot of people

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in the fire service would recognize that. So

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tell me where you were born and tell me a little

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bit about your family dynamic, what your parents

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did, how many siblings? I was born in Phoenix,

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Arizona. A long time ago. My dad was a firefighter.

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uh my mom uh was going to school and she became

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a nurse i was my brother was first i was second

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and then i had a sister behind me so i'm born

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and raised in phoenix and still living here over

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60 years beautiful now obviously your dad is

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known you know as one of the the leaders when

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it comes to the fire service As a human being,

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though, as a son of a firefighter, talk to me

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about your memories of him being in that profession

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when you were little. You know, he became the

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fire chief. So I was born in 62. He became the

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fire chief in 78. So I was 16 years old when

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that happened. But I think, you know, like most

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kids growing up, they know what their parents

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do, but they don't. I don't know. They don't

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really think about it much. They have their own.

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So I know my dad was a firefighter and he built

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his own house. So there's always firefighters

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over there helping him build a house. But, you

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know, my dad, you know, people say he's a firefighter

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or, you know, like a banker or a lawyer or something.

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You know, it was just this occupation. So it

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wasn't until I graduated from high school and

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really started working for the fire department

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that like. okay he's the fire chief and you know

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a big deal and everybody wants to kiss his ring

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and that whole nine yards but you know growing

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up he was just my dad that was a job so someone

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made it i know not very exciting no no it's good

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so someone made a comment the other day that

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um and they were talking about the way that our

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profession is uh perceived now versus how it

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used to be like you kind of just labeled you

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know you were a banker you were a construction

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worker you're a firefighter in conversations

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with your dad and then your own perspective what

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is the difference outside of new york in the

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fire service between pre -9 -11 and post -9 -11

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um uh i you know i don't know uh It's like asking

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somebody, are you happy? Are we happier before

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9 -11 as a service, or are we sadder as a service?

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I don't know. I think we've made a lot of improvements

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since then. I think it's made a lot of people

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aware. I think kids today don't want to get it

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on them nearly as much as my generation. to where,

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you know, all the cancers and stuff are more

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out there and aware. So I think it's less than

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some of our hiring pools. But, you know, to me,

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it's always, I hope it's getting better instead

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of worse. What do you think? Well, I think actually

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to kind of clarify the question, but I didn't

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present it very well because I remember now it

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was more about being perceived as a hero. You

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know, and prior to 9 -11, they were saying that

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we were just firefighters then. But after this,

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especially with this younger generation, you

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know, there's a danger of leaning into the identity

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as a firefighter and having the mustache and

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the leather helmet. They're almost like being

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seen to look as a firefighter, which is kind

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of matched with that post 9 -11 adoration. And

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I was a post 9 -11 firefighter myself, so I never

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experienced prior. But they were saying before

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that there wasn't a lot of this talk. And obviously

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what the men and women of FDNY and the other

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responders did in New York by the Pentagon, you

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know, responding to the crash of 93, you know,

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that was absolutely heroic. But as an entire

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profession, he felt like it had been skewed after

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that event. You know, I know. Because I was on

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the Phoenix Fire Department, I joined the department

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in 1980. So I kind of did see before and after.

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I know that my dad as a fire chief really exploited

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city council for a lot more money he was able

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to get after those events, you know. So that

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was a good thing. I don't know about being a

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hero. I think we were held in high esteem and

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regard in our communities before that anyway.

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But shortly after that, I mean, my crew walked

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into a bar. It was crowded like 9 o 'clock in

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the evening. I mean, the place was packed. And

00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:17.980
when we walked in there, the whole place stood

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up and applauded for us. So, I mean, that had

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never happened before. But, I mean, that wore

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off a couple months, and then they just kind

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of always treated the way they always treated

00:11:27.899 --> 00:11:32.019
us, I thought. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I

00:11:32.019 --> 00:11:34.179
think certainly that certainly when it comes

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to actually putting their money where their mouth

00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:38.799
is. And I think it's the same with with COVID,

00:11:38.919 --> 00:11:41.639
you know, that the frontline heroes, heroes work

00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:43.860
here when they were asking for more staffing

00:11:43.860 --> 00:11:45.639
and PPE and beds. They were like, oh, we're just

00:11:45.639 --> 00:11:48.139
going to clap. And it's the same with that. We

00:11:48.139 --> 00:11:50.659
actually asked for the funding for a fourth shift

00:11:50.659 --> 00:11:53.120
for the fourth person on the rig, whatever it

00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:55.980
is that we actually need. Now, all of a sudden,

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I feel like certainly in modern times. there's

00:11:58.529 --> 00:12:01.029
none of that support at least in a lot of areas

00:12:01.029 --> 00:12:07.870
yeah uh so we're scratching and clawing for all

00:12:07.870 --> 00:12:10.710
the resources that we kind of as a service has

00:12:10.710 --> 00:12:13.169
always done maybe we had a good period there

00:12:13.169 --> 00:12:15.029
for a while a bubble where they gave us some

00:12:15.029 --> 00:12:21.029
money but then there was a recession uh -huh

00:12:21.029 --> 00:12:25.210
yeah so Absolutely. All right. Well, let's go

00:12:25.210 --> 00:12:27.970
back on your timeline then. So when you were

00:12:27.970 --> 00:12:29.690
kind of going through the school years, what

00:12:29.690 --> 00:12:31.590
are you playing and doing as far as exercise

00:12:31.590 --> 00:12:39.649
and sport? I played baseball in grade school.

00:12:40.769 --> 00:12:43.190
And then when I got to high school, I never played

00:12:43.190 --> 00:12:45.690
organized football up until high school. And

00:12:45.690 --> 00:12:47.889
then I joined the football team as a freshman

00:12:47.889 --> 00:12:52.370
and that started out the year. So I played football.

00:12:53.269 --> 00:12:58.889
I wrestled. And then my dad built his own house,

00:12:58.970 --> 00:13:02.649
so that was never finished. So I was also a quasi

00:13:02.649 --> 00:13:09.309
-pseudo -ditch -digger, mason. So I was working

00:13:09.309 --> 00:13:15.110
outside at a very young age. I think my dad had

00:13:15.110 --> 00:13:17.289
kids just so that he could make slaves out of

00:13:17.289 --> 00:13:21.120
us to help. build stuff i grew up on a farm i

00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:24.220
can relate a hundred percent yeah you just had

00:13:24.220 --> 00:13:28.899
me to work here well it's interesting when when

00:13:28.899 --> 00:13:32.039
people have played team sports and also played

00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:34.580
individual sports and i did both growing up as

00:13:34.580 --> 00:13:36.460
well i was a martial artist but then i also played

00:13:36.460 --> 00:13:39.580
hockey and some other other sports There's interesting

00:13:39.580 --> 00:13:42.500
lessons from each of those two dynamics. So when

00:13:42.500 --> 00:13:45.559
you reflect back now, how did those sports factor

00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:47.700
into areas of your leadership as you progress

00:13:47.700 --> 00:13:51.960
through the fire service? They what I remember

00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:55.580
most is, you know, your high school, a lot of

00:13:55.580 --> 00:14:00.440
hormones or, you know, flying. You're angry at

00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:04.460
a lot of stuff. So football kind of saved me

00:14:04.460 --> 00:14:06.360
because it let me take out a lot of aggression.

00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:10.059
I mean, legally. You could smash into people

00:14:10.059 --> 00:14:12.360
at high speeds and, you know, nothing would happen.

00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:16.059
So it kind of got me through high school just

00:14:16.059 --> 00:14:20.419
mentally having a valve, you know, to get rid

00:14:20.419 --> 00:14:23.159
of steam. That's what I remember most about it.

00:14:23.299 --> 00:14:25.340
And then, too, you know, the camaraderie and

00:14:25.340 --> 00:14:28.480
hanging out with, you know, a team. That's always

00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:30.480
good. And that translated, you know, directly

00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:32.500
right into the fire service. And like you said,

00:14:32.620 --> 00:14:35.950
I think most. People sitting around a fire station

00:14:35.950 --> 00:14:38.950
table have been involved in some sort of team,

00:14:39.049 --> 00:14:45.269
something, military, sports. So, but, you know,

00:14:45.309 --> 00:14:48.450
at high school, I had no aspirations of, you

00:14:48.450 --> 00:14:52.090
know, continuing on college sports or anything

00:14:52.090 --> 00:14:58.250
else. I like my knees, yeah, and my shoulders,

00:14:58.450 --> 00:15:01.909
my elbows. So I got out when all my stuff still

00:15:01.909 --> 00:15:04.299
kind of worked. that's good and you still enjoyed

00:15:04.299 --> 00:15:06.019
the sports you weren't completely burned out

00:15:06.019 --> 00:15:10.039
like a one sport athlete no and then one you

00:15:10.039 --> 00:15:12.279
know it was a very popular sport when i joined

00:15:12.279 --> 00:15:14.580
and i joined young i was 18 years old when i

00:15:14.580 --> 00:15:17.399
got on the fire department uh basketball was

00:15:17.399 --> 00:15:21.879
the rage so i played a lot of basketball uh through

00:15:21.879 --> 00:15:27.889
my 20s into my early 30s so What was your dad's

00:15:27.889 --> 00:15:30.830
ethos as a family as far as physical fitness

00:15:30.830 --> 00:15:36.210
and how it pertains in the fire service? You

00:15:36.210 --> 00:15:37.450
know, there's a lot of people that know this,

00:15:37.529 --> 00:15:39.250
but a lot of people that don't. My dad built

00:15:39.250 --> 00:15:43.669
a gym in his backyard. That's how committed he

00:15:43.669 --> 00:15:47.370
was. And it wasn't just, you know, a little workout

00:15:47.370 --> 00:15:52.289
room. It was 1 ,200 square feet. It had a bathroom,

00:15:52.370 --> 00:15:57.070
shower, locker room. It had a ray of cardio.

00:15:57.309 --> 00:16:01.409
He had cable equipment, free weight, squat racks,

00:16:01.830 --> 00:16:05.389
leg machines. I mean, it was a gym. So he was

00:16:05.389 --> 00:16:08.509
very committed to that. And then, too, he had

00:16:08.509 --> 00:16:11.490
a saying I had in the book when we're talking

00:16:11.490 --> 00:16:14.750
about managing physical fitness. Firefighters

00:16:14.750 --> 00:16:17.190
are professional athletes that don't get a warm

00:16:17.190 --> 00:16:21.389
up period. So and that's really. And if you look

00:16:21.389 --> 00:16:25.440
at physical fitness. When we're out teaching,

00:16:25.580 --> 00:16:29.860
managing a fire company, I say it's really one

00:16:29.860 --> 00:16:32.679
of the most important things a company officer

00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:36.220
manages, making sure that everybody is working

00:16:36.220 --> 00:16:38.480
out and staying in shape. And, you know, that

00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:41.799
all starts out by themselves doing that. But

00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:46.659
it's three prongs. First of all, we have a very

00:16:46.659 --> 00:16:50.179
physical job. You know, we got to wear a lot

00:16:50.179 --> 00:16:53.740
of heavy equipment. We have to be in really good

00:16:53.740 --> 00:16:55.940
physical condition and do a couple of work cycles

00:16:55.940 --> 00:16:58.419
in that environment. The second part of being

00:16:58.419 --> 00:17:01.100
in good shape is the better shape you are in,

00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:05.059
the better your body can resist stress and free

00:17:05.059 --> 00:17:09.839
radicals. So it really helps us. And those are

00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:12.059
the environments that we're working in, right?

00:17:12.180 --> 00:17:14.859
Free radicals are bombarding us. And the better

00:17:14.859 --> 00:17:17.700
shape we're in, the better we are at staying

00:17:17.700 --> 00:17:20.619
healthy. And the third part of it is our mental

00:17:20.619 --> 00:17:24.519
wellness. and what being in good physical condition

00:17:24.519 --> 00:17:28.420
does. And a lot of that, like when Tim Dietz,

00:17:28.420 --> 00:17:30.880
I know he's been on your show, you know, we get

00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:33.960
bonked out on a lot of stuff. And those are triggers

00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:38.400
that start dumping these stress hormones into

00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:41.460
our bodies. And we go on these events where we

00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:43.380
don't need them to get through them. you know,

00:17:43.420 --> 00:17:45.640
the adrenaline and the cortisol. And we come

00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:47.900
back to the fire station and that stuff is in

00:17:47.900 --> 00:17:51.180
our bodies, eating us away. So the way we get

00:17:51.180 --> 00:17:54.339
rid of all that is through exercise. So it gets

00:17:54.339 --> 00:17:56.400
rid of stress hormones, you know, all that good

00:17:56.400 --> 00:17:59.319
stuff. So firefighters have to be physically

00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:02.660
fit if you're going to be in the field. Why is

00:18:02.660 --> 00:18:05.079
it you think that there's such a resistance to

00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:06.960
actually having a fitness standard? And when

00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:08.819
I say a fitness standard, I'm not talking about

00:18:08.819 --> 00:18:10.980
something that people made up where it's a 500

00:18:10.980 --> 00:18:14.400
deadlift. vertical jump, but something similar

00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:17.799
to a CPAT where regardless of age or gender,

00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:19.880
you're just moving around the equipment that

00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:26.519
we have to do for our job. It's the lunacy of

00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:29.339
our service, isn't it? What's the number one

00:18:29.339 --> 00:18:33.299
killer? Yeah, I mean, heart disease, cancer,

00:18:33.460 --> 00:18:35.420
and now we've got suicide, I think doubling all

00:18:35.420 --> 00:18:38.359
of those, but yeah, all interrelated. And what

00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:41.309
is the number one way to combat all that? Exercise

00:18:41.309 --> 00:18:46.630
and nutrition. So why don't we have standards

00:18:46.630 --> 00:18:50.730
that combat all the stuff that is the number

00:18:50.730 --> 00:18:53.990
one killers and, you know, and to me it's okay.

00:18:54.170 --> 00:18:57.029
We talk about the killer, but we don't talk about

00:18:57.029 --> 00:18:59.210
the 10 other people that had an event that didn't

00:18:59.210 --> 00:19:01.569
kill them and now they're disabled in some capacity

00:19:01.569 --> 00:19:04.529
for the rest of their life. So, you know, they're

00:19:04.529 --> 00:19:07.450
not living to the fullest because of, you know,

00:19:07.450 --> 00:19:14.059
I don't know. I don't know. James. Typically,

00:19:14.539 --> 00:19:18.400
you know, they resisted my doctor and, you know,

00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:20.799
those lines of things that, you know, and I get

00:19:20.799 --> 00:19:24.619
protecting your confidentiality. But I mean,

00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:27.200
when we're in a hazard zone, our lives are kind

00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:30.200
of depending on the physical condition of the

00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:35.640
people next to us. Right. So. yeah i'm with you

00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:38.680
i'm with you well it's interesting because i

00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:41.059
i have a lot of people you know from all walks

00:19:41.059 --> 00:19:43.759
of life on here but i have you know special ops

00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:46.160
and even tier one you know special forces soldiers

00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:49.539
um i have the strength conditionists and nutritionists

00:19:49.539 --> 00:19:51.640
and sports psychologists that work with those

00:19:51.640 --> 00:19:54.640
people as well and when i'm talking to those

00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:56.779
groups we're talking about forging performance

00:19:56.779 --> 00:19:59.180
we're talking about endurance and strength and

00:19:59.180 --> 00:20:02.519
breath work and all these things when those same

00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:06.109
professionals work with our more often than not,

00:20:06.150 --> 00:20:09.109
and you see this even in the IFF's peer fitness

00:20:09.109 --> 00:20:11.549
training, there's a conversation of, well, let's

00:20:11.549 --> 00:20:13.390
just get them moving. Let's try and reduce the

00:20:13.390 --> 00:20:15.710
heart disease, which is not performance. That's

00:20:15.710 --> 00:20:17.730
not taking a man or a woman and making sure they

00:20:17.730 --> 00:20:20.029
can put on 100 pounds of gear and then climb

00:20:20.029 --> 00:20:23.130
30 stories before they go to work. So there's

00:20:23.130 --> 00:20:25.349
such a chasm when we've allowed this fitness

00:20:25.349 --> 00:20:28.730
standard to just be non -existent. between forging

00:20:28.730 --> 00:20:32.089
performance and having, you know, elite firefighters.

00:20:32.250 --> 00:20:34.089
And if you look, for example, at the Paris firefighters,

00:20:34.390 --> 00:20:37.210
male, female, they're in phenomenal shape. And,

00:20:37.250 --> 00:20:38.750
you know, look at what they did in Notre Dame,

00:20:38.910 --> 00:20:41.329
for example, or the Bataclan shooting. And then

00:20:41.329 --> 00:20:43.789
you look at, you know, worst case scenario where

00:20:43.789 --> 00:20:45.769
you've got no standards and no fitness standards.

00:20:46.170 --> 00:20:48.009
And as you said, you know, you've got, we all

00:20:48.009 --> 00:20:50.670
know there's many, many of us in uniform are

00:20:50.670 --> 00:20:52.869
not where we're supposed to be physically. And

00:20:52.869 --> 00:20:55.799
when lives are at stake. You're putting yourself

00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:57.900
at risk. You're putting your crew at risk. And

00:20:57.900 --> 00:20:59.660
the person that you're supposed to be getting,

00:20:59.779 --> 00:21:02.480
if you go down, now you become the number one

00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:06.460
priority. So the fact that we've prevented, opposed

00:21:06.460 --> 00:21:09.579
these fitness standards for so long, it disgusts

00:21:09.579 --> 00:21:10.900
me. And I think it's something that we have to

00:21:10.900 --> 00:21:15.559
get together as a profession and rectify. I totally

00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:18.900
agree. You know, a lot of fire departments, we

00:21:18.900 --> 00:21:20.839
didn't have it in Phoenix, but a lot of fire

00:21:20.839 --> 00:21:22.920
departments now have like mandatory physical

00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:26.079
fitness times, you know, during the shift. And

00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:29.220
so they, they're, they're creating a culture

00:21:29.220 --> 00:21:31.400
where they're allowing the company officer, you

00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:34.460
know, the opportunities that are more ingrained

00:21:34.460 --> 00:21:37.000
in the daily schedules. So, I mean, there's a

00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:39.400
lot of stuff that a fire department can do, but

00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:42.359
there's always that, I don't know, you know,

00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:46.339
once you get hired. uh it's like very few places

00:21:46.339 --> 00:21:51.279
keep visiting uh an annual physical fitness standard

00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:55.599
so i was a lifeguard for a long time and we had

00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:57.640
to re -qualify every two years could you imagine

00:21:57.640 --> 00:21:59.839
me saying it's not fair that you have to test

00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:04.099
my swimming you're trying to take my job exactly

00:22:04.099 --> 00:22:10.990
exactly uh you know you mentioned that uh We

00:22:10.990 --> 00:22:13.190
had a couple of people from Miami -Dade on our

00:22:13.190 --> 00:22:16.269
validation committee for our textbook. And one

00:22:16.269 --> 00:22:17.890
of the things they did a long time ago is they

00:22:17.890 --> 00:22:21.289
have to be like, like guard class three or something

00:22:21.289 --> 00:22:25.130
as part as being in the field because of all

00:22:25.130 --> 00:22:27.670
the water around Miami. Well, every year they

00:22:27.670 --> 00:22:30.809
got to go do swim a quarter, three quarters of

00:22:30.809 --> 00:22:33.829
a mile within a certain amount of time. He said

00:22:33.829 --> 00:22:37.150
that right there keeps your entire, keeping their

00:22:37.150 --> 00:22:40.759
life guard. card to stay in the field is what

00:22:40.759 --> 00:22:44.660
keeps your department in shape yeah absolutely

00:22:44.660 --> 00:22:49.400
so but phoenix uh the closest body of water you

00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:53.500
can put in a glass you know or a pitcher we don't

00:22:53.500 --> 00:22:57.539
get that excuse yeah ours is like we have uh

00:22:57.539 --> 00:23:00.099
mountains that kind of surround the valley and

00:23:00.099 --> 00:23:03.599
there's a low high angle rescue so they're running

00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:07.509
up and down you know three mile trails So, I

00:23:07.509 --> 00:23:09.109
mean, they have to be in really good shape to

00:23:09.109 --> 00:23:11.769
do stuff like that. Like you say, the journey

00:23:11.769 --> 00:23:15.210
to get to where you work is, you know, you got

00:23:15.210 --> 00:23:17.029
to be in really good shape just to get there.

00:23:17.130 --> 00:23:18.670
And now that you get there, you got to do the

00:23:18.670 --> 00:23:21.509
work. So, yeah. Well, I think is it Newton's

00:23:21.509 --> 00:23:23.970
third law of motion? And it's the one where,

00:23:24.069 --> 00:23:25.730
you know, they show it takes like, you know,

00:23:25.750 --> 00:23:27.890
five people to start pushing a car. And as the

00:23:27.890 --> 00:23:30.049
car gets faster, people peel away and then one

00:23:30.049 --> 00:23:32.130
person can keep it going. It's the same with

00:23:32.130 --> 00:23:34.869
fitness. If you've got to that standard as you've

00:23:34.869 --> 00:23:37.400
gone through the academy. it takes very little

00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:39.720
effort to actually sustain it. And to be very

00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:42.640
fair, and I always say this, the work week doesn't

00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:44.619
help. The understaffing and mandatory overtime

00:23:44.619 --> 00:23:46.500
doesn't help because we're setting them up for

00:23:46.500 --> 00:23:48.880
failure now. So we have to fix the environment

00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:51.640
too. But if at the front door, you say, all right,

00:23:51.660 --> 00:23:52.839
you're already fit. We're just going to keep

00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:55.339
you fit. That's a lot easier than telling that

00:23:55.339 --> 00:23:58.180
300 pound engineer that he or she has got to

00:23:58.180 --> 00:24:01.640
get back to, you know, 220 and active again.

00:24:02.529 --> 00:24:05.150
Well, and that's if they did make standards,

00:24:05.289 --> 00:24:09.869
right? Do they grandfather? We're only going

00:24:09.869 --> 00:24:11.829
to hold the people that we hire from this point

00:24:11.829 --> 00:24:14.910
forward to this. And anybody that has been hired

00:24:14.910 --> 00:24:17.809
before this has happened, you know, keep eating

00:24:17.809 --> 00:24:20.769
the cheese puffs, you know? No. I don't know.

00:24:21.309 --> 00:24:23.569
No, I think that's why fire prevention was invented.

00:24:23.890 --> 00:24:26.970
You know, you can go over there, go check extinguishers

00:24:26.970 --> 00:24:29.049
while the personal trainers get you back in shape.

00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:31.819
And if because you get this, if you like, I don't

00:24:31.819 --> 00:24:33.099
want to put in the work. All right. Well, then

00:24:33.099 --> 00:24:35.500
it's definitely glad, you know, good thing that

00:24:35.500 --> 00:24:36.980
you're not on the rig, because if you've got

00:24:36.980 --> 00:24:40.180
that little interest in even getting fit, how

00:24:40.180 --> 00:24:43.019
are you going to be on the scene? You know, so

00:24:43.019 --> 00:24:46.319
I totally agree. And especially as a company

00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:48.380
officer, you know, delivering service, you want

00:24:48.380 --> 00:24:51.700
to be able to physically depend on the people

00:24:51.700 --> 00:24:54.960
that are on your your your unit. Are you familiar?

00:24:55.140 --> 00:24:59.240
Like Phoenix had its own health center. uh, own

00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:03.599
doctors. Uh, and we had annual physicals and

00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:05.900
the whole, it was, it was very extensive. And,

00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:08.119
uh, I don't know, going through a process like

00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:11.500
that, you know, your employer cares, right? But

00:25:11.500 --> 00:25:16.240
we had a tier system, tiered fitness level. Are

00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:19.619
you familiar with that? Um, somewhat. My dad

00:25:19.619 --> 00:25:22.740
worked with the union, the fitness initiative

00:25:22.740 --> 00:25:26.019
and all that stuff for years. And again, it was

00:25:26.019 --> 00:25:29.299
always a challenge. But we had four levels, four

00:25:29.299 --> 00:25:32.720
tiers of fitness. And tier one, you could see

00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:37.019
your abs. So maybe about 10 % of our fire department

00:25:37.019 --> 00:25:40.099
was actually tiered one. And they were very strict

00:25:40.099 --> 00:25:45.859
about it, too. Tier two, I think, you were, one

00:25:45.859 --> 00:25:51.420
of the factors was your body fat. So tier two

00:25:51.420 --> 00:25:54.119
were people that had in between, I don't know,

00:25:54.220 --> 00:25:58.200
it was like 12 and a half. The 20 % body fat

00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:00.960
was a Tier 2 body fat. That was probably about

00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:05.180
70 % of our department. But they, believe me,

00:26:05.220 --> 00:26:08.460
they had endurance. And then there was Tier 3

00:26:08.460 --> 00:26:12.519
where if you, Tier 3, you're like a fire. You're

00:26:12.519 --> 00:26:14.119
either getting better or you're getting worse.

00:26:14.900 --> 00:26:17.779
And you need to do a certain set of things when

00:26:17.779 --> 00:26:20.500
you're in this category. And then Tier 4 was

00:26:20.500 --> 00:26:22.779
you have a certain set of things wrong with you

00:26:22.779 --> 00:26:24.519
where you can't be out in the field delivering

00:26:24.519 --> 00:26:28.369
service anymore. I sent two people in my career

00:26:28.369 --> 00:26:32.849
that were really out of shape, clinically obese.

00:26:33.990 --> 00:26:35.690
And then they're an acroleptic. You know, they

00:26:35.690 --> 00:26:37.910
can't sleep. They bring in a CPAP machine, you

00:26:37.910 --> 00:26:40.130
know, the size of a small Volkswagen, you know.

00:26:42.410 --> 00:26:45.390
And I go, you can't work here. I mean, you're

00:26:45.390 --> 00:26:48.069
out of breath just getting on the truck. So I

00:26:48.069 --> 00:26:49.509
sent them down to the health center. They come

00:26:49.509 --> 00:26:51.450
back. They're tier three. They put the letter

00:26:51.450 --> 00:26:53.269
down. I mean, what does a company officer do

00:26:53.269 --> 00:26:57.930
when that happens? Because like you say, there's

00:26:57.930 --> 00:27:02.509
no standard where, okay, physically you have

00:27:02.509 --> 00:27:04.410
the body fat, blah, blah, blah, and you don't

00:27:04.410 --> 00:27:06.730
have this bad of a medical condition, but you

00:27:06.730 --> 00:27:10.410
can't go out there and do a CPAT test. You can't

00:27:10.410 --> 00:27:12.990
get through it. So that would be the defining

00:27:12.990 --> 00:27:16.450
factor. Yeah. And again, it's that longevity

00:27:16.450 --> 00:27:19.269
versus performance conversation. If you are in

00:27:19.269 --> 00:27:22.029
great shape, the longevity is tied into that.

00:27:22.349 --> 00:27:24.390
you are going to have a longer, healthier retirement

00:27:24.390 --> 00:27:26.150
because you've taken care of your heart and your

00:27:26.150 --> 00:27:28.549
lungs and your blood vessels and all the things,

00:27:28.630 --> 00:27:31.569
your GI tract. But yeah, if you're scraping through,

00:27:31.829 --> 00:27:33.809
you know, and I always say like there's that

00:27:33.809 --> 00:27:36.769
phrase, would you want you rescuing you? And

00:27:36.769 --> 00:27:40.349
that's good. But my thing is make it more raw

00:27:40.349 --> 00:27:42.289
than that. How would you feel if your family

00:27:42.289 --> 00:27:47.059
died because a rescuer hadn't trained? It's inexcusable.

00:27:47.099 --> 00:27:49.599
It cannot be allowed to happen. So it doesn't

00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:51.740
mean you just fire everyone on the spot. You

00:27:51.740 --> 00:27:54.160
give them an on -ramp to get them back. But if

00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:56.140
they choose not to put in the work to get back

00:27:56.140 --> 00:27:58.920
to being in shape to be a firefighter, that's

00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:01.480
on them then. That's not you. You knew the expectations

00:28:01.480 --> 00:28:03.460
at the front door because the minimum standard

00:28:03.460 --> 00:28:05.740
state, you've got to be able to do all that work

00:28:05.740 --> 00:28:07.759
that you did in the academy. So you can't say

00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:12.720
it's unfair. You knew from day one. I totally

00:28:12.720 --> 00:28:16.599
agree. And then, too, if you look at how much

00:28:16.599 --> 00:28:18.940
money would that save a fire department over

00:28:18.940 --> 00:28:23.099
the course of 20 years having an in -fit -shape

00:28:23.099 --> 00:28:27.740
workforce, it drastically reduced several negative

00:28:27.740 --> 00:28:31.880
factors. Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, let's

00:28:31.880 --> 00:28:35.200
get back onto your journey. So you have this

00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:38.420
firefighter family. Were you yourself thinking

00:28:38.420 --> 00:28:40.279
of the fire service when you were in the school

00:28:40.279 --> 00:28:42.000
ages, or was there something different in mind?

00:28:42.680 --> 00:28:48.460
No, I was, computers just got invented. Yeah.

00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:55.819
So, and then I, I had some run -ins, you know,

00:28:55.819 --> 00:29:00.220
with some, well, I was kind of drifting. I didn't

00:29:00.220 --> 00:29:02.579
know what I wanted to do. And I had a couple

00:29:02.579 --> 00:29:09.759
events that my mom actually came in to my bedroom

00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:13.619
with a hiring packet and said you need to go

00:29:13.619 --> 00:29:16.619
down and do something because you're on a path

00:29:16.619 --> 00:29:20.759
to like we're worried about you so I had really

00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:23.140
I had never thought about joining the fire department

00:29:23.140 --> 00:29:29.220
up to that point so I applied I was still in

00:29:29.220 --> 00:29:32.339
high school when they did the test I just turned

00:29:32.339 --> 00:29:39.279
18 so then I got in but before that I really

00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:42.640
I had I had never thought about. And my brother

00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:44.660
had joined the fire department ahead of me about

00:29:44.660 --> 00:29:48.640
a year. But still, I didn't see that as my career

00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:52.460
path. So what was that on -ramp for you? When

00:29:52.460 --> 00:29:56.480
you joined, were you actually kind of bitten

00:29:56.480 --> 00:30:00.299
by the bug by that point? No, it wasn't until

00:30:00.299 --> 00:30:07.500
I got out in the field. I hated running, like

00:30:07.500 --> 00:30:11.079
long -distance running. I couldn't stand it.

00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:14.099
And every morning in the academy, we had to run

00:30:14.099 --> 00:30:17.359
like 5 .2 miles. Like we're going to run to the

00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:22.599
incident scene. So, man, the academy, I dreaded

00:30:22.599 --> 00:30:24.880
every morning. And, you know, it was fun learning

00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:28.779
the vocation and everything, but just that part

00:30:28.779 --> 00:30:30.720
of it. So, but when I got out in the field, I

00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:32.880
don't know, like, you know, people are having

00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:34.400
their worst day and you're going to show up and

00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:36.759
make their day better. I don't think there are

00:30:36.759 --> 00:30:39.359
very many people that are in jobs like that.

00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:41.660
And the two every day is different. You don't

00:30:41.660 --> 00:30:44.480
know what's going to happen. You're not in this

00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:49.059
hold room, you know, or. So it was a couple of

00:30:49.059 --> 00:30:53.019
years into the job. I really I love being a firefighter.

00:30:53.019 --> 00:30:55.440
I look forward to coming to work every day. I

00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:59.000
love the people I work with. So I fell in love

00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:01.880
with it. How competitive was it to get hired

00:31:01.880 --> 00:31:07.630
back then? Oh, God. Probably a test, 3 ,000 to

00:31:07.630 --> 00:31:13.750
4 ,000 people for 100 jobs. Yeah, it was very

00:31:13.750 --> 00:31:17.269
competitive. You know, but today still Phoenix

00:31:17.269 --> 00:31:20.349
is high regarded. It's a big city. They're starting

00:31:20.349 --> 00:31:23.650
to rehire firefighters, trying to get back where

00:31:23.650 --> 00:31:26.150
they need to be. And someone told me they had

00:31:26.150 --> 00:31:31.430
4 ,000 people show up for like 250 this year.

00:31:31.529 --> 00:31:34.859
So that's a good ratio. Yeah. Yeah, there's a

00:31:34.859 --> 00:31:36.859
lot of places I know that are a lot worse off

00:31:36.859 --> 00:31:39.859
at the moment. One of the things that someone

00:31:39.859 --> 00:31:41.720
said to me, and it was very profound, they were

00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:44.480
like, the biggest recruitment tool that we have

00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:46.559
in the fire service are the firefighters themselves.

00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:48.819
And, you know, same in the military, you know,

00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:50.779
you used to talk about, you know, how proud you

00:31:50.779 --> 00:31:52.259
were to be a firefighter and it would inspire

00:31:52.259 --> 00:31:54.220
your kids and your kids' friends and your co

00:31:54.220 --> 00:31:56.420
-workers. And, you know, all of a sudden you'd

00:31:56.420 --> 00:31:59.019
be pulling people into this profession. But,

00:31:59.019 --> 00:32:00.839
you know, I've heard from many, many people,

00:32:00.900 --> 00:32:02.819
and this would even be my perception, even though

00:32:02.819 --> 00:32:06.619
I am sure we are in the beginning of a renaissance,

00:32:06.660 --> 00:32:08.380
that we are going to change the fire service,

00:32:08.440 --> 00:32:10.700
the things that need to be changed when it comes

00:32:10.700 --> 00:32:14.660
to the human element, if you like. But right

00:32:14.660 --> 00:32:17.500
now, a lot of firefighters are dissuading their

00:32:17.500 --> 00:32:19.660
children, their friends from coming into this

00:32:19.660 --> 00:32:23.000
job. So when you reflect back now to, you know,

00:32:23.019 --> 00:32:26.690
80s, 90s and beyond. How strong was that element?

00:32:26.809 --> 00:32:30.609
How powerful as far as recruitment were the men

00:32:30.609 --> 00:32:38.789
and women that you were serving with? Do you

00:32:38.789 --> 00:32:41.710
mean like, okay, the people that I hang out with

00:32:41.710 --> 00:32:43.589
and I'm talking to them about bringing them,

00:32:43.670 --> 00:32:46.109
you should join the fire department? Yeah, exactly.

00:32:46.630 --> 00:32:49.690
The influence of simply firefighters saying,

00:32:49.829 --> 00:32:51.930
this is an amazing job. You need to do this and

00:32:51.930 --> 00:32:53.809
getting people fired up to come into this profession.

00:32:56.929 --> 00:33:00.930
Man, you know, there's a lot of people that I

00:33:00.930 --> 00:33:04.930
knew became firefighters. God, I don't know.

00:33:05.690 --> 00:33:08.029
But I think it's getting less and less. Like

00:33:08.029 --> 00:33:13.329
you said, I think the more awareness of what

00:33:13.329 --> 00:33:18.369
we're doing. I mean, it's not a very good recruiting

00:33:18.369 --> 00:33:20.470
tool, is it? Hey, come on over. We're going to

00:33:20.470 --> 00:33:23.569
dip you in a bucket of cancer. And then we're

00:33:23.569 --> 00:33:26.089
going to sleep deprive you. And then we're going

00:33:26.089 --> 00:33:29.509
to emotionally traumatize you with the worst

00:33:29.509 --> 00:33:31.470
things that you can ever see dealing with humanity.

00:33:32.269 --> 00:33:38.829
So it's kind of a trifecta of a cocktail. We're

00:33:38.829 --> 00:33:40.690
going to stress you out the whole nine yards.

00:33:40.789 --> 00:33:44.069
And then, like you've been saying, we're understaffed.

00:33:44.069 --> 00:33:46.230
We're going to overwork you on top of all the

00:33:46.230 --> 00:33:50.809
other bad stuff. Even if we had a good work schedule,

00:33:51.069 --> 00:33:56.109
it would still. be a very stress and job. So,

00:33:56.150 --> 00:33:59.950
and I think, I think, you know, I deal with Tim

00:33:59.950 --> 00:34:04.269
Dietz a lot, the post -traumatic stress behavioral

00:34:04.269 --> 00:34:07.569
guy, and he goes around setting up stuff in fire

00:34:07.569 --> 00:34:13.710
departments. He, he says that kids are different

00:34:13.710 --> 00:34:18.849
today. So they're a lot more aware. But what

00:34:18.849 --> 00:34:21.530
ends up happening is, and I think it was in my

00:34:21.530 --> 00:34:24.110
day, is that people that are attracted to our

00:34:24.110 --> 00:34:27.309
service, a great percentage of them, are comfortable

00:34:27.309 --> 00:34:30.590
in chaos. So I think there's always going to

00:34:30.590 --> 00:34:33.630
be a group of people that were raised in a certain

00:34:33.630 --> 00:34:36.730
way where they're just attracted to our service.

00:34:36.929 --> 00:34:40.349
And then, too, a lot of the altruism that comes

00:34:40.349 --> 00:34:42.289
with some of those people in those environments,

00:34:42.489 --> 00:34:44.820
they want to give back. prevent what happened

00:34:44.820 --> 00:34:49.380
to them. I don't know. We're always going to

00:34:49.380 --> 00:34:53.780
have people to hire from that group. I think

00:34:53.780 --> 00:34:56.440
this is it. I find it very, very encouraging

00:34:56.440 --> 00:35:00.340
because most people, some idiots still say kids

00:35:00.340 --> 00:35:02.239
today don't want to work. They're all on their

00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:05.500
phones. There's a group, but like I always point

00:35:05.500 --> 00:35:07.900
out, there's a group of our generation that spent

00:35:07.900 --> 00:35:10.199
most of their time sitting in front of the TV

00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:12.619
eating chicken wings. It's the same exact type

00:35:12.619 --> 00:35:15.889
of person. But this generation now, and the Wall

00:35:15.889 --> 00:35:18.289
Street Journal did a piece on this, are going

00:35:18.289 --> 00:35:20.909
into the trades because this awareness that they're

00:35:20.909 --> 00:35:24.010
having, this ability to really find out information

00:35:24.010 --> 00:35:26.869
from this little rectangle in their hand, they're

00:35:26.869 --> 00:35:28.969
looking at college. And these young people are

00:35:28.969 --> 00:35:32.030
going, so wait a sec, $60 ,000 worth of debt

00:35:32.030 --> 00:35:34.230
and a piece of paper doesn't guarantee me a job?

00:35:34.349 --> 00:35:37.510
That doesn't sound good. Well, you put that same

00:35:37.510 --> 00:35:39.510
thing as you just laid out with the fire service

00:35:39.510 --> 00:35:41.949
and mandatory overtime and divorces and suicides

00:35:41.949 --> 00:35:43.960
and all the things. these people are looking

00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:46.179
at the you know the the hero stuff as we talked

00:35:46.179 --> 00:35:48.619
about earlier but they're also seeing that and

00:35:48.619 --> 00:35:50.900
they're going uh i really want to serve but let

00:35:50.900 --> 00:35:52.599
me find a different way of serving the fire service

00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:55.599
doesn't sound sustainable um which is funny because

00:35:55.599 --> 00:35:58.619
when i talk about 24 72 there's someone on facebook

00:35:58.619 --> 00:36:00.559
and it's they got a joint account so that speaks

00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:03.320
loudly their wife has to be on the same account

00:36:03.320 --> 00:36:06.420
as them but they always say unsustainable and

00:36:06.420 --> 00:36:08.619
i'm like i'm not even i don't respond to any

00:36:08.619 --> 00:36:12.019
on social media but what's unsustainable is the

00:36:12.019 --> 00:36:14.119
way that we do it now not the way that we're

00:36:14.119 --> 00:36:16.320
trying to change it to. We know it's unsustainable

00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:17.559
because we're in the middle of a recruitment

00:36:17.559 --> 00:36:20.760
crisis. The proof is in the pudding. But you

00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:24.119
change the work environment to a group of young

00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:26.019
men and women that value their relationships,

00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:28.820
understand the importance of sleep, the importance

00:36:28.820 --> 00:36:31.159
of fitness, the importance of their relationships,

00:36:31.300 --> 00:36:34.199
being present with their family because maybe

00:36:34.199 --> 00:36:37.079
their parents weren't because they were sleeping

00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:39.739
undead, working to the ground. And you attract

00:36:39.739 --> 00:36:41.500
them with the working environment. Now they're

00:36:41.500 --> 00:36:43.960
going, I do have a servant's heart. And now I

00:36:43.960 --> 00:36:45.440
see that you're actually going to take care of

00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:47.260
your people. Sign me up. I want to be there.

00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:50.380
So I think we have an amazing pool of young men

00:36:50.380 --> 00:36:53.099
and women. But we as a profession have to look

00:36:53.099 --> 00:36:55.519
in the mirror and go, these are the things that

00:36:55.519 --> 00:36:58.179
we need to fix. And when we do, we're going to

00:36:58.179 --> 00:37:06.760
turn this thing around. Yeah, I agree. The 72

00:37:06.760 --> 00:37:11.719
-24. Am I saying that right? 2472. I mean, it's

00:37:11.719 --> 00:37:19.320
irrelevant which way it is. Yeah. I wrote a chapter

00:37:19.320 --> 00:37:22.679
in our textbook that's on sleep deprivation.

00:37:23.159 --> 00:37:27.380
And I've also hung out with fire departments

00:37:27.380 --> 00:37:29.079
that have gone to that work schedule. What is

00:37:29.079 --> 00:37:33.760
your experience? Do you know the fire departments

00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:35.239
that have gone to that schedule and what's the

00:37:35.239 --> 00:37:37.860
effect of that? yeah i've got a very unique lens

00:37:37.860 --> 00:37:40.900
and i hope that this podcast was part of the

00:37:40.900 --> 00:37:44.199
reason why why this happened but in the last

00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:48.159
year seven fire departments went from 24 48 to

00:37:48.159 --> 00:37:51.880
24 72 and a great example is gainesville which

00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:54.360
is my neighbor here um where i went to college

00:37:54.360 --> 00:37:58.440
actually uf they just switched um they were you

00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:01.000
know they were struggling to to hire i mean you

00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:02.840
know they were taking a big part of the list

00:38:02.840 --> 00:38:04.920
instead of you know as we just touched on five

00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:08.860
ten percent of the list um and they announced

00:38:08.860 --> 00:38:12.119
that they were going to 24 72 they did it in

00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:13.380
a way where they were like all right we're just

00:38:13.380 --> 00:38:16.940
going to open up this the shift and the the the

00:38:16.940 --> 00:38:18.800
personnel were like we will cover these spaces

00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:21.579
as you fill them so initially there was more

00:38:21.579 --> 00:38:23.940
over time for a short amount of time but they

00:38:23.940 --> 00:38:27.119
they went to it in september This month, they

00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:30.519
are fully staffed, four shifts. That's how many

00:38:30.519 --> 00:38:32.820
recruits started lining up outside their door

00:38:32.820 --> 00:38:38.340
to come here. And the FSU has done baseline testing

00:38:38.340 --> 00:38:41.219
before they switched. And I've got someone coming

00:38:41.219 --> 00:38:43.179
on with the results next month and they're doing

00:38:43.179 --> 00:38:47.059
tests again. Now they've gone to 2472. But recruitment

00:38:47.059 --> 00:38:49.659
goes up. Certainly, obviously, the happiness

00:38:49.659 --> 00:38:53.360
and health of the firefighters has gone up. it's

00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:55.480
a money -saving initiative because most of the

00:38:55.480 --> 00:38:57.420
overtime now goes away at least the over you

00:38:57.420 --> 00:39:00.380
know the 24 overtime and still all the day overtime

00:39:00.380 --> 00:39:03.000
but so now these men and women are back at home

00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:05.500
in their beds when they're supposed to be so

00:39:05.500 --> 00:39:07.840
i've heard nothing but great things and this

00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:11.280
is the thing i always ask people the administrators

00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:15.360
the chiefs they work 40 hours explain to me why

00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:18.579
you need to work 56 when you're the one out responding

00:39:18.579 --> 00:39:20.960
to these person goes home at five you know five

00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:23.110
o 'clock every day that pushes papers around

00:39:23.110 --> 00:39:25.750
all day but you'd see and do all the things that

00:39:25.750 --> 00:39:28.650
we have to do and you need to work 56 it doesn't

00:39:28.650 --> 00:39:30.849
make any sense so when when people have made

00:39:30.849 --> 00:39:33.889
the switch every department that i know so far

00:39:33.889 --> 00:39:36.809
in depart in florida they're already seeing a

00:39:36.809 --> 00:39:39.309
huge uptick in in staffing they've got guys that

00:39:39.309 --> 00:39:41.090
were getting ready to leave that now aren't leaving

00:39:41.090 --> 00:39:43.769
so they're retaining a lot of their more um you

00:39:43.769 --> 00:39:47.869
know salty uh knowledgeable firefighters um so

00:39:47.869 --> 00:39:51.340
yeah it's a win -win -win every single time that

00:39:51.340 --> 00:39:55.360
i've heard of so far is it is that the schedule

00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:58.320
you work one on and you're off for three yeah

00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:02.559
yeah and even do it yeah so 24 72 no no 24 72

00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:05.480
so it's ongoing yeah and it's funny because even

00:40:05.480 --> 00:40:08.019
even the verbiage that we've always used one

00:40:08.019 --> 00:40:10.579
day on two days off you know i had an aha moment

00:40:10.579 --> 00:40:13.260
not that long ago a couple years ago like why

00:40:13.260 --> 00:40:17.159
do we call that a day is eight hours you know

00:40:17.159 --> 00:40:18.780
a civilian day is eight hours of the one hour

00:40:18.780 --> 00:40:21.820
lunch So it's three days on, one day off is what

00:40:21.820 --> 00:40:23.860
we've always worked. So all it's gone to now

00:40:23.860 --> 00:40:29.199
is three days on, two days off. That ends up

00:40:29.199 --> 00:40:33.219
being 42 hours a week, doesn't it? Yes. Yeah,

00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:37.139
which is what everyone else works. So, yeah,

00:40:37.260 --> 00:40:39.760
it's funny. I did a talk to help one of the local

00:40:39.760 --> 00:40:42.559
counties try and persuade their county to move

00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:45.880
to this. And I happen to just be messing around

00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:48.639
with some math. The 40 -hour workweek person.

00:40:49.369 --> 00:40:52.449
If you extrapolate over the year, they work 260

00:40:52.449 --> 00:40:57.070
days a year. If you divide what we work into

00:40:57.070 --> 00:41:00.570
eight hour days on a 56 hour work week, it ends

00:41:00.570 --> 00:41:04.449
up being 365, no, 364 days a year. So we get

00:41:04.449 --> 00:41:07.710
one day off a year. So when you put it in those

00:41:07.710 --> 00:41:10.989
terms, people are just mind blown. But when we've

00:41:10.989 --> 00:41:13.289
said we have this amazing schedule, I work 10

00:41:13.289 --> 00:41:15.369
days a month, you know, one day on, two days

00:41:15.369 --> 00:41:17.449
off. we don't realize that we've been telling

00:41:17.449 --> 00:41:19.510
ourselves kind of fairy tales the whole time.

00:41:21.849 --> 00:41:24.670
Wow. We're getting chipped out of a lot of overtime.

00:41:26.150 --> 00:41:28.050
Yeah, well, exactly. Here's the beautiful thing

00:41:28.050 --> 00:41:30.750
with that. And this is what's interesting. You

00:41:30.750 --> 00:41:33.110
know, we all know the guys that are all in in

00:41:33.110 --> 00:41:35.150
the profession, you know, that's their identity.

00:41:35.309 --> 00:41:37.829
And then when they retire, everything falls apart.

00:41:38.449 --> 00:41:41.789
If you don't have a lot of overtime available,

00:41:41.929 --> 00:41:43.250
there'll always be overtime, of course, sick

00:41:43.250 --> 00:41:44.909
days and events and all those kinds of things.

00:41:45.550 --> 00:41:47.570
Now it kind of forces people, if you want to

00:41:47.570 --> 00:41:49.989
make extra money, to kind of go down the entrepreneurial

00:41:49.989 --> 00:41:52.929
path. I just had Paul Conway on the show yesterday.

00:41:53.070 --> 00:41:55.989
So he's got a shield company, for example. Now

00:41:55.989 --> 00:41:58.250
you have that separate business, separate tribe,

00:41:58.389 --> 00:42:01.510
separate financial safety net. And again, not

00:42:01.510 --> 00:42:04.050
working overnight in the ER, not working on an

00:42:04.050 --> 00:42:06.389
ambulance company, something where you're still

00:42:06.389 --> 00:42:08.909
home every night with your family. That's a positive.

00:42:09.489 --> 00:42:11.329
Make more money if you need more money. Just

00:42:11.329 --> 00:42:13.880
don't do it. getting, you know, staying in the

00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:20.380
meat grinder at a fire station. I've heard both

00:42:20.380 --> 00:42:24.980
sides. It's great. And then the way they do it

00:42:24.980 --> 00:42:30.860
is different. Some people go to a Kelly way to

00:42:30.860 --> 00:42:36.199
do that where you're on one, off two, on one,

00:42:36.380 --> 00:42:43.679
off two, on one, off. seven or something and

00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:48.619
then when they but a couple large metros uh washington

00:42:48.619 --> 00:42:52.139
dc was one of them uh went to a four shift and

00:42:52.139 --> 00:42:54.219
what i heard from their senior staff was they

00:42:54.219 --> 00:42:56.440
kind of lost their fire department because having

00:42:56.440 --> 00:42:59.920
three days off in a row it kind of became more

00:42:59.920 --> 00:43:04.820
of a side job and then they couldn't like watch

00:43:04.820 --> 00:43:08.880
out for people as much like you know instead

00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:11.219
of gaining you know a half a pound on your two

00:43:11.219 --> 00:43:15.179
days off they came in with three quarters of

00:43:15.179 --> 00:43:20.579
a pound they had gained so they but i think the

00:43:20.579 --> 00:43:22.960
other sides of it are the sleep deprivation and

00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:27.019
all the other stuff it prevents even if you're

00:43:27.019 --> 00:43:32.320
in a one -on -two -off if you have let's say

00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:36.780
you don't have enough people to make a four shift

00:43:36.780 --> 00:43:39.699
but The goal should be having at least what you

00:43:39.699 --> 00:43:41.880
have adequately staffed and then having more

00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:46.219
than that so that at least the people have opportunities

00:43:46.219 --> 00:43:50.639
to take multiple shifts off a month. The opportunities

00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:52.820
are there because you're staffed enough, and

00:43:52.820 --> 00:43:55.800
that doesn't put pressure on the rest of everybody

00:43:55.800 --> 00:43:58.900
else that's working. So if we could just get

00:43:58.900 --> 00:44:02.219
up to that level, I think we would be way ahead

00:44:02.219 --> 00:44:04.829
of the ballgame. Yeah, well, even I think the

00:44:04.829 --> 00:44:06.369
way that we do that, though, is we have to bring

00:44:06.369 --> 00:44:07.889
these people back. And that goes back to the

00:44:07.889 --> 00:44:10.190
42. And it's interesting with the D .C., whoever

00:44:10.190 --> 00:44:12.409
said that, because if you look at the science

00:44:12.409 --> 00:44:15.230
that's behind sleep deprivation and all the things,

00:44:15.349 --> 00:44:18.630
it causes obesity. It causes diabetes. It causes

00:44:18.630 --> 00:44:21.250
heart disease and cancer. And so there's no way

00:44:21.250 --> 00:44:23.650
in hell that they're coming back. less healthy

00:44:23.650 --> 00:44:25.409
than they would have you know they're definitely

00:44:25.409 --> 00:44:27.389
and then again that goes back to the fitness

00:44:27.389 --> 00:44:29.110
standards if you want to go eat cake for three

00:44:29.110 --> 00:44:30.789
days that's fine but you better be ready to do

00:44:30.789 --> 00:44:34.809
the CPAT or whatever it is so but that disconnection

00:44:34.809 --> 00:44:36.449
yeah the only thing that I've heard is you know

00:44:36.449 --> 00:44:39.070
you know you see you know say you're a B shifter

00:44:39.070 --> 00:44:41.230
like your brother you know A shift is off going

00:44:41.230 --> 00:44:43.650
C shift is on coming you always see that I think

00:44:43.650 --> 00:44:45.050
that's the only thing is they've said it's a

00:44:45.050 --> 00:44:46.550
bit weird because there's some shifts that you

00:44:46.550 --> 00:44:49.650
don't see but when I worked in California it

00:44:49.650 --> 00:44:52.719
was one -on -one off um you know four times and

00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:55.019
then we had a four or six at the end so a lot

00:44:55.019 --> 00:44:57.000
of times you wouldn't see you know it would kind

00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:59.039
of rotate through as well you'd have you know

00:44:59.039 --> 00:45:00.539
one shift that you saw all the time you never

00:45:00.539 --> 00:45:03.239
saw a c -shift for an entire tour and then so

00:45:03.239 --> 00:45:05.420
you know is that a terrible thing i don't think

00:45:05.420 --> 00:45:08.579
so you know if you're you know if you're because

00:45:08.579 --> 00:45:10.699
then you pick up overtime and you you know you

00:45:10.699 --> 00:45:12.699
do trades and stuff then you get to start see

00:45:12.699 --> 00:45:16.280
other shifts but i i think that's you know a

00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:20.920
very poor reason not to go to to the 24 72 and

00:45:20.920 --> 00:45:22.940
i think again even filling like you said people

00:45:22.940 --> 00:45:24.780
have said to me oh i want we want to get a fourth

00:45:24.780 --> 00:45:26.460
person on the rig first and then we'll talk about

00:45:26.460 --> 00:45:28.400
that and it goes back to well how are you going

00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:30.500
to get if you can't even hire now what makes

00:45:30.500 --> 00:45:32.800
you think they're magically going to start lining

00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:34.699
up to be your fourth person they're not you've

00:45:34.699 --> 00:45:37.260
got to fix the work week first and the irony

00:45:37.260 --> 00:45:40.800
is boston new york some of the original fire

00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:44.940
services they work a 42 hour week no one no one

00:45:44.940 --> 00:45:47.639
brings that up The original fire departments

00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:51.000
work a 42 -hour week. It's the rest of us that

00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:55.980
are behind. Oh, I definitely agree. But, you

00:45:55.980 --> 00:45:58.539
know, like at Phoenix, my God, what would that

00:45:58.539 --> 00:46:02.639
cost to go to a fourth shift? Each shift right

00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:06.900
now has about 450 people on it. So, and then

00:46:06.900 --> 00:46:08.659
how long does it take to get up there? But I

00:46:08.659 --> 00:46:12.380
totally agree that that's, we got to do something.

00:46:12.460 --> 00:46:16.039
I mean. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the biggest thing

00:46:16.039 --> 00:46:18.239
is, you know, as this happens, because a lot

00:46:18.239 --> 00:46:20.039
of departments are saying, you know, Miami -Dade,

00:46:20.099 --> 00:46:23.019
for example, is still sought after higher. But

00:46:23.019 --> 00:46:24.659
all these other departments are now going to

00:46:24.659 --> 00:46:28.280
this better work week. So that recruitment that

00:46:28.280 --> 00:46:30.300
was kind of a luxury because you were known as

00:46:30.300 --> 00:46:33.480
a destination department. Now that starts kind

00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:35.760
of tapering off because the agencies around you

00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:38.139
have got a better work week. And then so some

00:46:38.139 --> 00:46:40.139
departments will be forced into it later. But

00:46:40.139 --> 00:46:42.480
most departments, the money is the overtime.

00:46:42.969 --> 00:46:45.929
the money is you know the the cost of of hiring

00:46:45.929 --> 00:46:47.969
all these recruits and then a hundred of them

00:46:47.969 --> 00:46:49.730
walk out the back door in the next two years

00:46:49.730 --> 00:46:52.030
you know it's the workman's comp claims it's

00:46:52.030 --> 00:46:53.949
the medical disabilities it's the line of duty

00:46:53.949 --> 00:46:56.010
death payments it's the lawsuits from when we're

00:46:56.010 --> 00:46:58.570
so tired and we make mistakes and we hit vehicles

00:46:58.570 --> 00:47:01.230
and push the wrong meds so the money is all there

00:47:01.230 --> 00:47:03.590
it's all downstream though we've got to have

00:47:03.590 --> 00:47:06.150
the courage to put it at the front proactive

00:47:06.150 --> 00:47:12.989
all right sign me up It's a big old sales pitch

00:47:12.989 --> 00:47:22.329
there. Part of it too, though, is if you work

00:47:22.329 --> 00:47:25.769
one shift and you have three days off, you're

00:47:25.769 --> 00:47:28.030
going to recover from that one shift a lot better.

00:47:28.409 --> 00:47:31.349
But when you're that one shift and it's two o

00:47:31.349 --> 00:47:33.570
'clock in the morning, you're still sleep deprived.

00:47:34.469 --> 00:47:38.230
So we're never going to get rid of it as a service.

00:47:38.269 --> 00:47:42.460
I think we can help. really mitigate its long

00:47:42.460 --> 00:47:45.539
-term effects with another shift. But as a company

00:47:45.539 --> 00:47:48.820
officer, if it's 2 o 'clock in the morning and

00:47:48.820 --> 00:47:51.099
you just got woken up to go on an incident, you've

00:47:51.099 --> 00:47:52.880
got to understand what's going on in your human

00:47:52.880 --> 00:47:56.179
body, all the stuff that doesn't normally happen

00:47:56.179 --> 00:47:59.280
in normal people. And you also have to realize

00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:01.699
that cognitively and physically you're not what

00:48:01.699 --> 00:48:03.460
you were when you came to work at 8 o 'clock

00:48:03.460 --> 00:48:05.840
in the morning. And so I've got to manage you

00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:07.719
in a way where we're going to slow things down.

00:48:08.460 --> 00:48:11.840
uh we're going to take more time rehabbing recovering

00:48:11.840 --> 00:48:15.159
our work cycle isn't going to be as long or nearly

00:48:15.159 --> 00:48:18.219
as vigorous just because we don't have we're

00:48:18.219 --> 00:48:20.659
not in the mental physical state to perform that

00:48:20.659 --> 00:48:23.659
way and what happens is we wake up at two o 'clock

00:48:23.659 --> 00:48:25.320
in the morning and we think that we're the same

00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:27.039
person eight o 'clock in the morning when we

00:48:27.039 --> 00:48:30.119
came to work and we're not especially when we're

00:48:30.119 --> 00:48:32.380
making critical decisions like you just covered

00:48:32.380 --> 00:48:37.130
drug doses you know what's really burning here

00:48:37.130 --> 00:48:42.010
am i seeing what i'm really seeing so we still

00:48:42.010 --> 00:48:45.110
have to somebody has to come to work and be there

00:48:45.110 --> 00:48:47.769
for 24 hours and no one's going to come to work

00:48:47.769 --> 00:48:53.510
and stay awake from 10 a 10 p .m to 6 a .m i

00:48:53.510 --> 00:48:55.550
mean we're all going to go to sleep and so when

00:48:55.550 --> 00:48:58.250
we wake up we're still going to have the company

00:48:58.250 --> 00:49:00.050
officer is going to have to manage that set of

00:49:00.050 --> 00:49:03.289
things Absolutely. Yeah. It's very, very true.

00:49:03.429 --> 00:49:04.969
I mean, you look at the human impact and then

00:49:04.969 --> 00:49:06.409
you had some of these departments that are doing

00:49:06.409 --> 00:49:11.190
48, 48, 96. So now you're in, you know, 36. Yeah.

00:49:11.289 --> 00:49:13.909
I mean, it's, it's insane and they use it as

00:49:13.909 --> 00:49:16.590
a badge of honor. And I don't mean to sound like

00:49:16.590 --> 00:49:18.630
a dick when I say this, but when you're advertising

00:49:18.630 --> 00:49:21.710
that, putting it front and center, that's telling

00:49:21.710 --> 00:49:23.570
the world that you really don't understand this,

00:49:23.570 --> 00:49:26.210
this idea at all, you know, and it's kind of

00:49:26.210 --> 00:49:29.010
embarrassing. Yeah, but the firefighters get

00:49:29.010 --> 00:49:31.690
together and they vote on it. So they vote on

00:49:31.690 --> 00:49:33.590
it and they're like shooting themselves in their

00:49:33.590 --> 00:49:38.090
own foot. 100%. It's like when they're doing

00:49:38.090 --> 00:49:40.989
it, it's totally emotional. They're not basing

00:49:40.989 --> 00:49:44.570
it on any data, any science. And if you've said,

00:49:44.650 --> 00:49:46.650
look at what's going on. And then I don't know

00:49:46.650 --> 00:49:49.269
if you remember Don Abbott, God rest his soul.

00:49:49.650 --> 00:49:52.809
He did a Project Mayday over a seven, eight year

00:49:52.809 --> 00:49:56.469
period of time before he died. You are like five

00:49:56.469 --> 00:50:02.190
times more likely to have a mayday or get significantly

00:50:02.190 --> 00:50:06.010
injured on your second day off, your second day

00:50:06.010 --> 00:50:08.710
off, your second day that you're at work. And

00:50:08.710 --> 00:50:11.329
then he has the timeframes. Okay, now you're

00:50:11.329 --> 00:50:14.349
in your last eight or your 48 and you are, it's

00:50:14.349 --> 00:50:18.130
at night. That is when your chances of injury,

00:50:18.449 --> 00:50:24.139
maydays, everything skyrockets. So then a part

00:50:24.139 --> 00:50:26.360
of that, too, is they go to these WAC schedules

00:50:26.360 --> 00:50:33.340
and they trade. So now they're working 72s, 96s

00:50:33.340 --> 00:50:36.840
in a row. And then they drive 150 miles home

00:50:36.840 --> 00:50:38.780
because they can't afford to live in their community.

00:50:39.579 --> 00:50:42.500
And they're killing themselves and other people

00:50:42.500 --> 00:50:44.519
on the highways getting home. So, I mean, the

00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:48.019
whole thing is just crazy. And you voted for

00:50:48.019 --> 00:50:52.099
this. yeah well the one of the studies and i

00:50:52.099 --> 00:50:53.840
talk about this a lot because i think it's important

00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:55.639
for people to understand you know a little knowledge

00:50:55.639 --> 00:50:58.059
is a dangerous thing i had a guy on the show

00:50:58.059 --> 00:51:00.940
joel billings super nice guy was a volunteer

00:51:00.940 --> 00:51:03.219
firefighter but only worked during the day never

00:51:03.219 --> 00:51:05.900
did a night shift decided to go into the research

00:51:05.900 --> 00:51:08.300
side didn't want to be a career firefighter um

00:51:08.300 --> 00:51:11.659
and so one of his first projects i think was

00:51:11.659 --> 00:51:15.809
phd i think um He studied a department that went

00:51:15.809 --> 00:51:19.230
from a 2448 to a 4896, the one we just talked

00:51:19.230 --> 00:51:23.269
about. And I think he studied like cortisol and

00:51:23.269 --> 00:51:26.070
a couple other things. And the result, the study

00:51:26.070 --> 00:51:28.809
showed that on the second day, they were slightly

00:51:28.809 --> 00:51:31.949
less stressed, more rested of that second day

00:51:31.949 --> 00:51:35.070
of that 48. So this is a better schedule. The

00:51:35.070 --> 00:51:39.610
problem is no one, you know, clearly people took

00:51:39.610 --> 00:51:41.590
that and ran with it, but no one actually looked

00:51:41.590 --> 00:51:44.480
at the study. The department that Joel studied

00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:49.119
ran one call a shift and less than one at night.

00:51:49.159 --> 00:51:52.599
So basically nearly always zero at night. That

00:51:52.599 --> 00:51:56.300
was a department. And the only improvement that

00:51:56.300 --> 00:52:01.460
they saw was that second 24 of the 48, they hadn't

00:52:01.460 --> 00:52:04.380
woken up at 5 a .m. to drive that 150 miles or

00:52:04.380 --> 00:52:06.840
4 a .m. to go to the station. So they were more

00:52:06.840 --> 00:52:08.679
rested that second day because they slept all

00:52:08.679 --> 00:52:11.170
night because they don't get any calls. You can

00:52:11.170 --> 00:52:14.530
get that benefit by changing the start time instead

00:52:14.530 --> 00:52:16.789
of seven or eight. Like, you know, why do we

00:52:16.789 --> 00:52:19.969
start? So you make that now, you know, it's 2472

00:52:19.969 --> 00:52:24.650
with 11 a .m. noon start time. Now you wake up,

00:52:24.670 --> 00:52:26.269
you have breakfast with your kids, you take them

00:52:26.269 --> 00:52:28.610
to school, then you go to the station. You've

00:52:28.610 --> 00:52:31.329
avoided rush hour. And then the guy or girl you're

00:52:31.329 --> 00:52:34.210
relieving that just got hammered all night. Now

00:52:34.210 --> 00:52:36.730
they can sleep in till 10. The rig's checked

00:52:36.730 --> 00:52:38.929
out. They're ready to go. And so now they're

00:52:38.929 --> 00:52:40.969
less sleep deprived on that journey home that

00:52:40.969 --> 00:52:43.710
you said. So when you actually look at the science

00:52:43.710 --> 00:52:47.469
of sleep medicine, 24 is pushing it. 12s aren't

00:52:47.469 --> 00:52:50.449
the answer. 24 is what we have to do in our profession.

00:52:50.610 --> 00:52:54.110
I 1000 % agree with that. But no, you know, no

00:52:54.110 --> 00:52:56.570
more than 24. Like that's that's pushing it.

00:52:56.610 --> 00:52:59.110
Go have your 72. Go try and get back to baseline.

00:52:59.329 --> 00:53:03.809
But a 48 hour shift on a, you know, even moderately

00:53:03.809 --> 00:53:08.539
busy, you know, station or rig. is pure insanity

00:53:08.539 --> 00:53:10.639
and and if you're beating your chest saying that

00:53:10.639 --> 00:53:12.820
you're a great firefighter and you voted for

00:53:12.820 --> 00:53:16.219
that you are an absolutely subpar firefighter

00:53:16.219 --> 00:53:18.599
because just as you said you're operating at

00:53:18.599 --> 00:53:23.820
an absolutely depleted level by that point i

00:53:23.820 --> 00:53:28.980
i'll fall for the later start time uh Ours was

00:53:28.980 --> 00:53:30.940
eight. I've been on fire departments. They start

00:53:30.940 --> 00:53:33.360
at seven. Now, one of the things that you could

00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:35.920
say is, okay, now it's daylight and we're going

00:53:35.920 --> 00:53:38.480
on the calls early in the morning where you'd

00:53:38.480 --> 00:53:41.820
want to get a fresher person that didn't have

00:53:41.820 --> 00:53:46.099
a long night there earlier. But we had a union

00:53:46.099 --> 00:53:49.159
president in Phoenix. He was there for like the

00:53:49.159 --> 00:53:52.559
first 15 years I was on the job. He wanted us

00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:57.980
to start at 10 a .m. The membership had to vote

00:53:57.980 --> 00:54:00.679
on it. It got voted down every single time. And

00:54:00.679 --> 00:54:02.599
the biggest thing was the morning routine with

00:54:02.599 --> 00:54:06.000
their wife and the kids. And it was going to

00:54:06.000 --> 00:54:10.559
upset, you know, when they got off in the morning,

00:54:10.619 --> 00:54:13.519
they had to get their kids to school. But every

00:54:13.519 --> 00:54:16.099
time, and he'd like once a year, he would try

00:54:16.099 --> 00:54:18.699
to get it through. And I, yes, yes, 10 o 'clock.

00:54:18.920 --> 00:54:21.079
Well, that meant I could sleep in. I'm not rush

00:54:21.079 --> 00:54:24.079
hour traffic. I thought it was a great thing,

00:54:24.139 --> 00:54:27.389
but. Yeah. Well, the thing is, even with that

00:54:27.389 --> 00:54:29.369
morning, because I've had that brought up. And

00:54:29.369 --> 00:54:32.409
my thing is this, when I worked 24 -48, I only

00:54:32.409 --> 00:54:35.530
saw my family one morning out of three. First

00:54:35.530 --> 00:54:37.130
morning, I'm getting up at five. They're still

00:54:37.130 --> 00:54:39.750
asleep. And I go to the station. Second morning,

00:54:39.909 --> 00:54:42.530
for me, I never got back. When I got back to

00:54:42.530 --> 00:54:45.230
the house after a 70 -mile drive, my wife was

00:54:45.230 --> 00:54:48.269
at work and my kids were at school. So actually,

00:54:48.349 --> 00:54:51.170
it gives you more time to help out with the family,

00:54:51.250 --> 00:54:53.510
more time with your kid. And now it's two mornings.

00:54:54.079 --> 00:54:56.840
out of every four if you've gone you know uh

00:54:56.840 --> 00:54:58.539
sorry three mornings at every four if you've

00:54:58.539 --> 00:55:02.280
gone to a 24 72 instead of one out of three which

00:55:02.280 --> 00:55:04.559
is the way we do it now so you've given someone

00:55:04.559 --> 00:55:08.159
basically two extra mornings per shift rotation

00:55:08.159 --> 00:55:14.559
with their family yeah another one i'm off for

00:55:14.559 --> 00:55:18.940
uh my wife was a flight nurse so she did 12 24

00:55:18.940 --> 00:55:23.079
hour shifts so it was I'd come in, she'd leave.

00:55:23.179 --> 00:55:25.679
I wouldn't see her for 24 hours. So ours was

00:55:25.679 --> 00:55:28.940
really upside, but our kids always had one parent

00:55:28.940 --> 00:55:33.639
home. So yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, we've

00:55:33.639 --> 00:55:36.199
been talking about sleep deprivation and recruitment

00:55:36.199 --> 00:55:38.980
for 50 minutes. So let's kind of get onto the

00:55:38.980 --> 00:55:43.199
leadership side and the managing a fire. So as

00:55:43.199 --> 00:55:45.139
you progress through, you've obviously got this,

00:55:45.159 --> 00:55:47.539
this father who's being revered at that point

00:55:47.539 --> 00:55:49.420
now, as far as a leader within our profession.

00:55:50.559 --> 00:55:53.340
With that influence and your own experience as

00:55:53.340 --> 00:55:56.659
you're navigating the ranks, let's start with

00:55:56.659 --> 00:55:59.059
this. What were some of the things that you were

00:55:59.059 --> 00:56:02.139
seeing as far as issues and challenges that you

00:56:02.139 --> 00:56:09.400
recognized needed to be addressed? My dad did

00:56:09.400 --> 00:56:14.880
a lot of good things. Fire command, leadership

00:56:14.880 --> 00:56:20.380
stuff. But his biggest deal was being nice. So

00:56:20.380 --> 00:56:26.119
that was kind of his mantra. But, hey, a guy's

00:56:26.119 --> 00:56:29.719
mantra, like his deal is be nice. He wasn't nice

00:56:29.719 --> 00:56:32.000
when you weren't nice. So, you know, everybody

00:56:32.000 --> 00:56:34.559
thought he was a big, you know, panda bear pushover.

00:56:35.500 --> 00:56:38.400
And just because his mantra was be nice doesn't

00:56:38.400 --> 00:56:40.400
mean that he wasn't going to deal with business.

00:56:41.360 --> 00:56:45.219
So, you know, I grew up with that and the way

00:56:45.219 --> 00:56:50.260
to treat firefighters or any work group. uh and

00:56:50.260 --> 00:56:54.480
he always he always validated himself from the

00:56:54.480 --> 00:56:56.739
people below him and not the people above him

00:56:56.739 --> 00:57:01.480
so that always was in the impression of my mind

00:57:01.480 --> 00:57:05.699
but so after i retired from phoenix i went on

00:57:05.699 --> 00:57:10.820
this blue card fire command journey and it was

00:57:10.820 --> 00:57:13.199
critical i mean we lose a lot of firefighters

00:57:13.199 --> 00:57:16.179
in the hazard zone and then we screw a lot of

00:57:16.179 --> 00:57:20.679
them up too in there so But if you look at really

00:57:20.679 --> 00:57:24.460
the service delivery package and the time of

00:57:24.460 --> 00:57:29.579
our 24 hours, very little of it is really spent

00:57:29.579 --> 00:57:35.619
in the hazard zone. And a lot of it is spent

00:57:35.619 --> 00:57:39.639
just managing and driving around with the people

00:57:39.639 --> 00:57:43.239
that you're in charge of. So what I saw in my

00:57:43.239 --> 00:57:48.449
travels is that. Firefighters are excellent problem

00:57:48.449 --> 00:57:51.829
solvers unless it's their own personal problem

00:57:51.829 --> 00:57:55.730
and they have a very difficult time with having

00:57:55.730 --> 00:57:59.989
any difficult conversation or conflict in a fire

00:57:59.989 --> 00:58:03.989
station. And so what it leads to is I want to

00:58:03.989 --> 00:58:06.250
be your friend a lot more than I want to be your

00:58:06.250 --> 00:58:10.670
boss. And they don't address issues like our

00:58:10.670 --> 00:58:16.179
workforce really needs to. And, you know, I saw

00:58:16.179 --> 00:58:18.320
it in Phoenix. I see it everywhere. I think it's

00:58:18.320 --> 00:58:21.920
a universal percentage. You have the old gruffy

00:58:21.920 --> 00:58:24.619
company officers that aren't running a popularity

00:58:24.619 --> 00:58:26.960
contest. And it's ironic that they're usually

00:58:26.960 --> 00:58:29.519
the most popular. And then you have a group of

00:58:29.519 --> 00:58:31.940
people that I guess just wanted to sit in the

00:58:31.940 --> 00:58:33.780
seat and they don't want to manage anything because

00:58:33.780 --> 00:58:35.880
they don't want to be unpopular or have conflict

00:58:35.880 --> 00:58:40.000
or anything. So in managing a fire company, what

00:58:40.000 --> 00:58:42.320
we wanted to do was the soft skills that we have

00:58:42.320 --> 00:58:45.739
to use every single. moment of the day and mostly,

00:58:45.780 --> 00:58:51.900
you know, 80, 90 % EMS, correct? Yeah. No one

00:58:51.900 --> 00:58:55.260
ever. So this book really talks about EMS and

00:58:55.260 --> 00:58:57.800
what's going on in the customer's brain, how

00:58:57.800 --> 00:59:00.320
to deal with them, the body language, and then

00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:02.579
the post part of it. You know, we just saw, we

00:59:02.579 --> 00:59:06.480
just, you know, did CPR on grandma for 35 minutes.

00:59:07.639 --> 00:59:12.280
What are we, our resilience after that? And then

00:59:12.280 --> 00:59:18.219
dealing with issues. So we set up scenarios to

00:59:18.219 --> 00:59:20.480
where you have to have a difficult conversation.

00:59:20.679 --> 00:59:23.300
We maybe step them through the different types

00:59:23.300 --> 00:59:26.940
that they have so that, you know, get this, we

00:59:26.940 --> 00:59:28.920
actually try to train them before we put them

00:59:28.920 --> 00:59:30.840
in the role that they're going to have to do

00:59:30.840 --> 00:59:33.079
this instead of just putting them in there untrained.

00:59:33.780 --> 00:59:36.840
So, and the response that we've had has been

00:59:36.840 --> 00:59:40.889
really phenomenal. And, you know, it's a new

00:59:40.889 --> 00:59:43.710
program, so a lot of the seasoned officers are

00:59:43.710 --> 00:59:45.670
going through it to evaluate it. And what we

00:59:45.670 --> 00:59:48.769
get from them is, I wish I had this, you know,

00:59:48.769 --> 00:59:51.889
10 years ago. And then when we get with the junior

00:59:51.889 --> 00:59:53.630
officers that we're doing, you know, a lot of

00:59:53.630 --> 00:59:55.849
times we're doing class, they get done, they

00:59:55.849 --> 00:59:58.670
got to go back to work. They come back in the

00:59:58.670 --> 01:00:00.329
morning when they get off for the second part

01:00:00.329 --> 01:00:02.909
of the class. They say, I actually used your

01:00:02.909 --> 01:00:06.469
stuff last night. So that's always really good

01:00:06.469 --> 01:00:10.809
to hear. Absolutely. That's one thing I've always

01:00:10.809 --> 01:00:15.329
noticed with the promotional ladder is it's officer

01:00:15.329 --> 01:00:18.769
classes. It's inboxes and scenarios and all these

01:00:18.769 --> 01:00:21.030
things, but it's not teaching leadership. It's

01:00:21.030 --> 01:00:23.429
not teaching, as you said, even understanding

01:00:23.429 --> 01:00:26.050
the soft skills like the mental health. We're

01:00:26.050 --> 01:00:28.309
all guilty of this. The guy that seemed pissed

01:00:28.309 --> 01:00:30.329
off back in the day, we used to push his buttons.

01:00:30.449 --> 01:00:32.710
Now we're realizing that guy needed a hug, not

01:00:32.710 --> 01:00:35.579
a poke. So, you know, understanding as a human

01:00:35.579 --> 01:00:38.139
being, you know, when to, yeah, of course, have

01:00:38.139 --> 01:00:39.719
to discipline or whatever you have to do on that

01:00:39.719 --> 01:00:42.460
side. But, yeah, understanding the dynamic of

01:00:42.460 --> 01:00:44.280
your crew, literally, as you said, even hour

01:00:44.280 --> 01:00:46.400
by hour, depending on, you know, how they're

01:00:46.400 --> 01:00:53.099
doing at that moment. Yeah. And I read all the

01:00:53.099 --> 01:00:55.420
books going through the system, you know, promoting

01:00:55.420 --> 01:00:58.659
everything. And none of it really prepared me

01:00:58.659 --> 01:01:04.360
for being a company officer. Really didn't. And

01:01:04.360 --> 01:01:06.659
so I wanted to write a book, okay, when you come

01:01:06.659 --> 01:01:08.900
through the fire station doors in this morning,

01:01:08.980 --> 01:01:11.500
this is what you're getting paid to manage. And

01:01:11.500 --> 01:01:17.800
so we talk about readiness. There's like nine

01:01:17.800 --> 01:01:22.119
chapters on getting the truck ready, drilling,

01:01:22.500 --> 01:01:27.500
chow, managing physical fitness, managing readiness.

01:01:27.860 --> 01:01:30.300
We have a sleep deprivation chapter in there.

01:01:31.159 --> 01:01:33.079
And then we move on to EMS service delivery,

01:01:33.500 --> 01:01:36.420
firefighter resilience, and then the managing

01:01:36.420 --> 01:01:40.940
human part of it. So, you know, a lot of times,

01:01:41.019 --> 01:01:44.079
and you work for good company officers and bad

01:01:44.079 --> 01:01:47.400
ones. My favorites were the ones that very early

01:01:47.400 --> 01:01:49.579
on when they saw me doing something out of balance,

01:01:49.699 --> 01:01:53.199
and I wanted them to do this for me, is say,

01:01:53.239 --> 01:01:56.099
knock it off. Quit doing it that way. Don't say

01:01:56.099 --> 01:02:00.940
that. They didn't let a problem grow until they

01:02:00.940 --> 01:02:04.659
were so mad they just exploded. They very grunt,

01:02:04.739 --> 01:02:08.239
you know, short sentences, get on the truck and

01:02:08.239 --> 01:02:10.719
sign the drill. Those are my favorite people

01:02:10.719 --> 01:02:17.719
to work for. So, but I see, and the more social

01:02:17.719 --> 01:02:20.679
media, the less social firefighters get, right?

01:02:21.139 --> 01:02:23.840
And they hide behind this and that. And I think

01:02:23.840 --> 01:02:26.699
we're worse than we were 20 years ago telling

01:02:26.699 --> 01:02:30.090
somebody to knock it off. I think 20 years ago

01:02:30.090 --> 01:02:32.590
you'd hear it 80 % of the time, and now maybe

01:02:32.590 --> 01:02:36.650
50 % you're going to get lucky. So we wanted

01:02:36.650 --> 01:02:40.030
to ingrain a skill set in officers where it's

01:02:40.030 --> 01:02:42.809
your job to tell people to knock it off when

01:02:42.809 --> 01:02:46.889
you need to. So that's what we're trying to do.

01:02:48.590 --> 01:02:53.260
But it's called managing a fire company. every

01:02:53.260 --> 01:02:56.260
as a person i'm a i'm leading a fire company

01:02:56.260 --> 01:02:58.639
i'm a leader i'm a leader i'm a leader and i

01:02:58.639 --> 01:03:00.800
go well you are leading two or three other people

01:03:00.800 --> 01:03:03.860
but you got a daily set of things to manage here

01:03:03.860 --> 01:03:10.920
so well you said about that kind of tightrope

01:03:10.920 --> 01:03:14.159
between the authoritarian that you have to be

01:03:14.159 --> 01:03:16.960
sometimes and you know the the member of the

01:03:16.960 --> 01:03:19.460
team the member of the crew what are some of

01:03:19.460 --> 01:03:21.280
the principles that you bring to these young

01:03:21.280 --> 01:03:24.980
leaders to try and find balance between you know

01:03:24.980 --> 01:03:27.619
the times you have to actually be the bugles

01:03:27.619 --> 01:03:29.420
that are on your shirt and the times that it's

01:03:29.420 --> 01:03:32.139
okay to be you know just one of the people working

01:03:32.139 --> 01:03:34.039
out or one of the people throwing ladders or

01:03:34.039 --> 01:03:41.739
doing the dishes it so and believe me i've I've

01:03:41.739 --> 01:03:45.400
had a lot of discussions along these lines. When

01:03:45.400 --> 01:03:50.619
a company officer is the first, so you join up

01:03:50.619 --> 01:03:53.119
as a firefighter, you're a driver, a paramedic.

01:03:53.139 --> 01:03:54.840
I mean, there's a lot of stuff that you can do

01:03:54.840 --> 01:03:57.880
before you're a company officer. But when you

01:03:57.880 --> 01:04:00.139
become a company officer is the first position

01:04:00.139 --> 01:04:01.860
that you're in where you're in charge of anybody

01:04:01.860 --> 01:04:05.280
else. And when you're in charge of anybody else,

01:04:05.320 --> 01:04:08.420
you are a leader. You are. Those people are looking

01:04:08.420 --> 01:04:11.590
at you. So what we tell people is what is your

01:04:11.590 --> 01:04:16.429
scope of influence? And you are a leader. But

01:04:16.429 --> 01:04:20.030
what is the leaders above you expect you to manage,

01:04:20.250 --> 01:04:25.969
right? So through my research, and he's the guy

01:04:25.969 --> 01:04:29.269
who coined the phrase emotional intelligence.

01:04:29.309 --> 01:04:31.010
God, I can't think of his name right now. But

01:04:31.010 --> 01:04:38.760
I read a Harvard Business Review 10. reviews

01:04:38.760 --> 01:04:41.800
these little books they put together he wrote

01:04:41.800 --> 01:04:44.139
a thing where he wanted to thousands of companies

01:04:44.139 --> 01:04:46.820
data you know it's all scientific based it's

01:04:46.820 --> 01:04:48.860
not you know based on a personal experiences

01:04:48.860 --> 01:04:52.800
and they identified if you're in charge of somebody

01:04:52.800 --> 01:04:57.900
else six management styles and so what we say

01:04:57.900 --> 01:05:01.559
is here they are here's the six and then we we

01:05:01.559 --> 01:05:05.739
say okay here's the positives factors in using

01:05:05.739 --> 01:05:08.159
this, and here are the negative factors. And

01:05:08.159 --> 01:05:10.340
then, okay, how is a company officer going to

01:05:10.340 --> 01:05:13.719
use this one out of six management styles, and

01:05:13.719 --> 01:05:18.280
how is the fire chief going to use it? So one

01:05:18.280 --> 01:05:21.400
that we just talked about is coercive, telling

01:05:21.400 --> 01:05:26.159
somebody to knock it off. And coercive is a very

01:05:26.159 --> 01:05:29.340
low -rated management style. But a company officer

01:05:29.340 --> 01:05:32.440
has to have the ability to be coercive. And the

01:05:32.440 --> 01:05:35.840
example I use is you should only like, okay,

01:05:35.980 --> 01:05:38.199
you're in trouble. I have to discipline you and

01:05:38.199 --> 01:05:39.820
blah, blah, blah. And there's a process that

01:05:39.820 --> 01:05:42.280
you have to fit into if you're being officially

01:05:42.280 --> 01:05:46.300
coercive. You have to change in order to be employed

01:05:46.300 --> 01:05:50.139
here. But the example I use is that's a bad way

01:05:50.139 --> 01:05:54.099
to manage on a daily basis, right? But I ask

01:05:54.099 --> 01:05:56.780
it like there's, I was in a group that had about

01:05:56.780 --> 01:05:59.239
150 people. I says, okay, here, raise your hand

01:05:59.239 --> 01:06:03.449
if you were afraid of your dad growing up. And

01:06:03.449 --> 01:06:06.110
everyone raised their hand. And I go, okay, anybody

01:06:06.110 --> 01:06:09.250
under 40 who thinks their dad can still take

01:06:09.250 --> 01:06:11.650
them. And half the people raised their hand.

01:06:12.329 --> 01:06:15.550
And my dad loved me, and he wanted to meet the

01:06:15.550 --> 01:06:18.010
best for me and everything. But I think a company

01:06:18.010 --> 01:06:21.590
officer has to have that coercive, right? Your

01:06:21.590 --> 01:06:24.750
crew members have to know that if something's

01:06:24.750 --> 01:06:29.590
out of balance, you're going to fix it. And so

01:06:29.590 --> 01:06:31.969
it's not something that you want to manage with

01:06:31.969 --> 01:06:34.769
on a day -to -day basis being coercive to your

01:06:34.769 --> 01:06:37.110
group, but it's like growing up with your dad.

01:06:37.550 --> 01:06:39.510
You know that when you cross the line with your

01:06:39.510 --> 01:06:41.389
dad, there's something bad going to happen to

01:06:41.389 --> 01:06:46.710
you, right? So coercive was one. I'll quickly

01:06:46.710 --> 01:06:51.210
go through them. The first one is being authoritative.

01:06:52.300 --> 01:06:54.840
and that is the number one rated management style.

01:06:55.079 --> 01:06:57.579
And what it is is people like someone in charge

01:06:57.579 --> 01:07:01.659
that has a path and a clear vision. And so we

01:07:01.659 --> 01:07:03.539
look at that, okay, how does a company officer

01:07:03.539 --> 01:07:05.599
use that and a fire chief? Well, a fire chief

01:07:05.599 --> 01:07:08.000
sets the policies and everything. So a company

01:07:08.000 --> 01:07:11.099
officer is kind of that for their crew, but they've

01:07:11.099 --> 01:07:13.480
got to fit into their fire chief's authoritative,

01:07:13.619 --> 01:07:18.639
right? There's democratic. Again, a fire chief

01:07:18.639 --> 01:07:20.500
is going to use that one a lot more than a company

01:07:20.500 --> 01:07:24.929
officer is. Are we going to vote to go on the

01:07:24.929 --> 01:07:27.530
next call? Hey, a difficulty breathing just came

01:07:27.530 --> 01:07:31.730
in. You know, who wants to go? So they're not

01:07:31.730 --> 01:07:34.409
going to be, but there is some stuff that a company

01:07:34.409 --> 01:07:36.570
officer needs to be democratic with. You know,

01:07:36.630 --> 01:07:38.429
what are we going to eat? What's the routine

01:07:38.429 --> 01:07:41.409
going to be today? This is the five things that

01:07:41.409 --> 01:07:43.550
we have to do. You guys tell me what order you

01:07:43.550 --> 01:07:46.909
want to do them in. So there is some stuff, but

01:07:46.909 --> 01:07:51.429
the next one is the affiliative. And that is

01:07:51.429 --> 01:07:54.030
where a company officer lives, is connecting

01:07:54.030 --> 01:07:56.130
with their crew, and it's the second highest

01:07:56.130 --> 01:07:59.630
rated management style. And so if you look at

01:07:59.630 --> 01:08:03.369
the first one, I want a boss that has good visions,

01:08:03.369 --> 01:08:06.889
and this is what we're here for. There's no gray.

01:08:07.449 --> 01:08:10.050
And then I also want somebody that cares about

01:08:10.050 --> 01:08:14.139
me. So a company officer and a fire chief doesn't

01:08:14.139 --> 01:08:16.739
get down in a 24 -hour period with their crew

01:08:16.739 --> 01:08:19.039
members like the company officer does. So you

01:08:19.039 --> 01:08:21.100
got it. And the two you got, the better you know

01:08:21.100 --> 01:08:23.319
your crew, the better you can push their buttons,

01:08:23.479 --> 01:08:25.439
the better you know if there's something going

01:08:25.439 --> 01:08:27.659
on in their life and they're not acting normally

01:08:27.659 --> 01:08:31.359
that you can kind of head off. So that's a huge

01:08:31.359 --> 01:08:35.060
one. And then there's pace setting is another,

01:08:35.220 --> 01:08:37.220
and that's the worst management style there is,

01:08:37.340 --> 01:08:41.109
pace setting. And that's the Navy SEALs. And

01:08:41.109 --> 01:08:43.489
I expect everybody to be a Navy SEAL like me.

01:08:44.170 --> 01:08:48.109
And then the last one is being a coach. And I

01:08:48.109 --> 01:08:51.350
think that, again, it's a big one where a company

01:08:51.350 --> 01:08:53.510
officer has to do a lot of coaching. And you

01:08:53.510 --> 01:08:57.289
have to be not the best at everything on your

01:08:57.289 --> 01:08:59.890
crew, but you need to be the highest authority

01:08:59.890 --> 01:09:03.789
on your crew. So that's what we talk about leadership

01:09:03.789 --> 01:09:08.300
and management. And here are the styles. and

01:09:08.300 --> 01:09:10.159
they say if you can use three or four of those

01:09:10.159 --> 01:09:13.220
effectively you get like a c or b but if you

01:09:13.220 --> 01:09:16.319
can use all six styles for the situation that

01:09:16.319 --> 01:09:18.500
you're in uh you're going to get an a plus as

01:09:18.500 --> 01:09:20.760
a manager the more styles that you can use the

01:09:20.760 --> 01:09:23.279
more effective you are and we hey we've all worked

01:09:23.279 --> 01:09:27.199
for bosses that have used pace setting and coercive

01:09:27.199 --> 01:09:30.399
those are their only two right and then we work

01:09:30.399 --> 01:09:32.659
with bosses that's i'm going to be affiliative

01:09:32.659 --> 01:09:34.619
with you i'm going to be your best friend and

01:09:34.619 --> 01:09:36.460
they don't manage things that need to be managed

01:09:37.550 --> 01:09:40.649
So you need a blend of all six of those in order

01:09:40.649 --> 01:09:45.590
to be effective. One of the issues that I see,

01:09:45.670 --> 01:09:49.649
because I've had some incredible chiefs and captains

01:09:49.649 --> 01:09:52.409
and lieutenants in my career and some awful ones.

01:09:52.729 --> 01:09:54.590
So I've got to see, and I work for four different

01:09:54.590 --> 01:09:56.710
departments on the East and the West Coast. So

01:09:56.710 --> 01:09:58.909
I've got a very interesting, I always say gypsy

01:09:58.909 --> 01:10:03.130
-like experience in the fire service. One of

01:10:03.130 --> 01:10:05.510
the things that I'm seeing, especially when we

01:10:05.510 --> 01:10:08.350
lose so many first responders, and now we've

01:10:08.350 --> 01:10:11.970
got a recruitment crisis, is in some areas just

01:10:11.970 --> 01:10:14.890
a complete lack of moral courage from a leader.

01:10:15.010 --> 01:10:19.689
And there seems to be more value placed on their

01:10:19.689 --> 01:10:22.750
own career path than there is advocating for

01:10:22.750 --> 01:10:26.520
their people. With your lens, you know, talk

01:10:26.520 --> 01:10:28.840
to me about that kind of person and how can we

01:10:28.840 --> 01:10:32.000
kind of nudge them back into being courageous

01:10:32.000 --> 01:10:34.319
and actually, you know, fighting for their men

01:10:34.319 --> 01:10:38.340
and women. Are you talking about the senior leaders

01:10:38.340 --> 01:10:41.340
on a fire department? Not even senior. I mean,

01:10:41.340 --> 01:10:43.659
this could be a union president. This could be,

01:10:43.659 --> 01:10:46.140
you know, I mean, collectively firefighters.

01:10:46.319 --> 01:10:48.279
But I mean, you know, more often than not, obviously

01:10:48.279 --> 01:10:51.340
a union leader, a chief, even, you know, city

01:10:51.340 --> 01:10:57.279
and county, you know, administrators. I think

01:10:57.279 --> 01:11:00.180
company officers, the whole fire department is

01:11:00.180 --> 01:11:03.800
a product of their environment, a culture that

01:11:03.800 --> 01:11:06.359
is created, and that culture will always start

01:11:06.359 --> 01:11:11.180
at the top. So as far as the fire chiefs go,

01:11:11.319 --> 01:11:14.760
I see less and less of a commitment. When I got

01:11:14.760 --> 01:11:17.220
hired in 1980, you were a fire chief for one

01:11:17.220 --> 01:11:19.899
fire department your whole life, and then you

01:11:19.899 --> 01:11:22.939
retired and you didn't go anywhere else. There's

01:11:22.939 --> 01:11:25.520
very little lateral transfers, especially on

01:11:25.520 --> 01:11:29.479
the executive level in the fire service. And

01:11:29.479 --> 01:11:32.779
now what you see is this rotating, exactly what

01:11:32.779 --> 01:11:37.880
you described, is I was a deputy chief here,

01:11:37.960 --> 01:11:39.939
and I took a fire chief job here, and I'm going

01:11:39.939 --> 01:11:41.899
to do this for four or five years, and I'm going

01:11:41.899 --> 01:11:44.840
to go over here and be a fire chief again. Well,

01:11:44.920 --> 01:11:47.399
the lack of commitment that that creates when

01:11:47.399 --> 01:11:50.840
you're drifting through, you know? And again,

01:11:50.920 --> 01:11:54.600
I... I think that has, and then the, the, the

01:11:54.600 --> 01:11:58.119
tenure of years that a fire chief has on a department

01:11:58.119 --> 01:12:00.539
now, I mean, probably when my dad, my dad was

01:12:00.539 --> 01:12:03.260
a fire chief in Phoenix for 28 years. And I know

01:12:03.260 --> 01:12:06.739
that's a long, unusual one, but man was a fire

01:12:06.739 --> 01:12:11.800
chief now, two, three, four years. So the, and

01:12:11.800 --> 01:12:14.260
then, okay, here's a, every four years I got

01:12:14.260 --> 01:12:16.260
a new mission statement. I got to learn. And

01:12:16.260 --> 01:12:18.659
here's this person's vision and it keeps flipping

01:12:18.659 --> 01:12:22.779
on. So I think. the more stable it is up at the

01:12:22.779 --> 01:12:26.039
top and the more that they can do this culture

01:12:26.039 --> 01:12:29.380
company officers have to fit into that i mean

01:12:29.380 --> 01:12:31.819
you're still going to have some rogues but it's

01:12:31.819 --> 01:12:35.420
it's so to me to get the company officers on

01:12:35.420 --> 01:12:37.539
board and everybody you know managing people

01:12:37.539 --> 01:12:39.920
in the right way it's got to stop start at the

01:12:39.920 --> 01:12:42.460
top there's got to be stuff that they're doing

01:12:42.460 --> 01:12:44.939
that the proof is in the pudding that i care

01:12:44.939 --> 01:12:49.260
about the people that are working for me so And

01:12:49.260 --> 01:12:51.840
then if you're a company officer that are in

01:12:51.840 --> 01:12:55.119
an environment where you're in a good culture

01:12:55.119 --> 01:12:59.420
and you're still not doing what you need to do

01:12:59.420 --> 01:13:01.140
to take care of your people, now you're part

01:13:01.140 --> 01:13:03.319
of the problem. And I call those people cancer.

01:13:04.699 --> 01:13:07.039
You're more of a cancer than you are a cure here.

01:13:07.300 --> 01:13:10.840
And we've all seen those people throughout the

01:13:10.840 --> 01:13:14.479
service. And a lot of it's like how long will

01:13:14.479 --> 01:13:17.640
an apartment... tolerate somebody that's just

01:13:17.640 --> 01:13:21.579
cancerous. And I've seen like, okay, a new fire

01:13:21.579 --> 01:13:24.720
chief comes in and I go, you're gone. And they're

01:13:24.720 --> 01:13:27.319
like, the people, the workforce gets up and applauds.

01:13:29.380 --> 01:13:34.579
Which is sad, right? Yeah. So I don't know. I

01:13:34.579 --> 01:13:36.600
mean, there's a lot of factors out there that

01:13:36.600 --> 01:13:39.300
are kind of driving our work environment and

01:13:39.300 --> 01:13:43.579
us being a product of that. I had a guest on.

01:13:44.119 --> 01:13:46.920
And I think he was a Marine, certainly in the

01:13:46.920 --> 01:13:49.239
war on terror in one of the countries. And I

01:13:49.239 --> 01:13:52.380
remember him saying that there was a certain

01:13:52.380 --> 01:13:54.720
point, it may have been Iraq, because that was

01:13:54.720 --> 01:13:58.220
probably the less obvious of the two post 9 -11.

01:13:59.239 --> 01:14:01.779
And he was like, well, we got on and we just

01:14:01.779 --> 01:14:05.119
went out on mission. And we prayed we didn't

01:14:05.119 --> 01:14:08.039
get hit with an IED. We patrolled and took out

01:14:08.039 --> 01:14:09.760
bad guys and went back to the base. He said that

01:14:09.760 --> 01:14:12.289
we never really seemed to move the needle. And

01:14:12.289 --> 01:14:14.369
it really made me think about my whole career,

01:14:14.489 --> 01:14:16.130
even in the good fire departments where they

01:14:16.130 --> 01:14:18.010
did have some things that progressed. But like,

01:14:18.029 --> 01:14:20.529
what was the mission statement? And, you know,

01:14:20.529 --> 01:14:22.770
most of us, I worked just 14, but most of us

01:14:22.770 --> 01:14:25.609
are going to work 2025. What did you, I mean,

01:14:25.630 --> 01:14:28.130
we save lives, but I mean, as far as proactively

01:14:28.130 --> 01:14:30.350
improving things and preventing some of these

01:14:30.350 --> 01:14:33.369
from happening, what did we actually change in

01:14:33.369 --> 01:14:35.869
2025 years? Or did you just show up, put your

01:14:35.869 --> 01:14:38.010
gear on the rig, take your job seriously, respond

01:14:38.010 --> 01:14:41.739
when the tones go out and then go home? And I've

01:14:41.739 --> 01:14:44.539
never really kind of heard a fire service leader

01:14:44.539 --> 01:14:47.539
say, here's where we need to be 10 years from

01:14:47.539 --> 01:14:50.680
now. You know, we need to change the work. We

01:14:50.680 --> 01:14:53.859
need to start leaning into, you know, 911 telehealth

01:14:53.859 --> 01:14:55.760
and getting rid of some of these non -emergent

01:14:55.760 --> 01:14:57.960
calls. You know, just things that can improve

01:14:57.960 --> 01:15:00.260
the community. Because you've got fire prevention.

01:15:00.359 --> 01:15:03.300
They do a great job. But for us, like the mission,

01:15:03.500 --> 01:15:06.439
like how is it going to improve? And I feel like

01:15:06.439 --> 01:15:08.710
that's a... a really kind of glaring missing

01:15:08.710 --> 01:15:11.329
piece of our profession that is demoralizing

01:15:11.329 --> 01:15:13.350
because our men and women are just doing the

01:15:13.350 --> 01:15:17.489
same thing day in day out well we are definitely

01:15:17.489 --> 01:15:21.510
a reactionary service uh -huh and what we're

01:15:21.510 --> 01:15:24.289
there for is we're the the agency of last resort

01:15:24.289 --> 01:15:27.350
when all of the other things in society have

01:15:27.350 --> 01:15:34.170
failed who do they call us us but so are you

01:15:36.239 --> 01:15:39.460
Again, like when I'm managing a fire company,

01:15:39.520 --> 01:15:41.020
I want to be a leader. I want to be a leader.

01:15:41.079 --> 01:15:44.079
Well, it's very hard for, okay, you're in charge

01:15:44.079 --> 01:15:46.239
of your three or four people, but what impact

01:15:46.239 --> 01:15:49.819
can that company officer have on the whole entire

01:15:49.819 --> 01:15:53.119
fire department bringing it up to the next level?

01:15:53.880 --> 01:15:58.659
So their level of influence is... Their scope

01:15:58.659 --> 01:16:01.260
is the people they're in charge of. And the higher

01:16:01.260 --> 01:16:03.060
you go up and the more people you're in charge

01:16:03.060 --> 01:16:05.420
of, the more and more positive impact you can

01:16:05.420 --> 01:16:09.420
make on those people. But as a firefighter, I

01:16:09.420 --> 01:16:14.000
don't want to lessen, and I know that, you know,

01:16:14.020 --> 01:16:15.640
we come to work and it's the same, you know,

01:16:15.640 --> 01:16:19.199
one tragedy after another. But we have a significant

01:16:19.199 --> 01:16:23.300
impact on our communities. And I'll tell you

01:16:23.300 --> 01:16:27.829
a little story here. It really kind of hit home

01:16:27.829 --> 01:16:31.270
with me, and when it happened, I told myself

01:16:31.270 --> 01:16:33.250
for the first time I had no idea what the impact

01:16:33.250 --> 01:16:36.449
I was making. Just out there delivering service.

01:16:36.710 --> 01:16:40.210
So I moved over here to the east side of Phoenix

01:16:40.210 --> 01:16:44.789
about 10 years ago. That's a little bit more

01:16:44.789 --> 01:16:49.789
high rent. Just a little. But I got out of the

01:16:49.789 --> 01:16:54.170
west side, and I'm at a grocery store. And it's

01:16:54.170 --> 01:16:57.770
a grocery store that is kind of a high -end gourmet

01:16:57.770 --> 01:17:00.229
one. And I was probably buying beer or something

01:17:00.229 --> 01:17:02.949
there. And I'm going up the aisle, and I turn

01:17:02.949 --> 01:17:06.050
the corner, and there's this woman pushing a

01:17:06.050 --> 01:17:10.369
cart coming at me. And she's probably about 10

01:17:10.369 --> 01:17:12.489
years older than me, very well -dressed, and

01:17:12.489 --> 01:17:16.350
she is staring at me. And, like, one of those

01:17:16.350 --> 01:17:19.699
unnerving stares, right? And as we're passing

01:17:19.699 --> 01:17:22.319
carts in the middle of the aisle now, she stops

01:17:22.319 --> 01:17:26.640
and she grabs my arm. And she says, are you a

01:17:26.640 --> 01:17:30.600
firefighter? And I'm kind of like, you know,

01:17:30.680 --> 01:17:32.880
is this like, are you going to serve me some

01:17:32.880 --> 01:17:36.920
sort of summons or warrant or something? And

01:17:36.920 --> 01:17:40.279
I go, well, I'm retired now, but I was a firefighter.

01:17:40.279 --> 01:17:42.800
And she says, you saved me and my husband's life

01:17:42.800 --> 01:17:47.520
on I -10 at 40th Street. And she vividly says,

01:17:47.659 --> 01:17:49.640
you know, my husband was driving. He was unconscious.

01:17:50.079 --> 01:17:52.300
His legs were broken. He had to be extricated

01:17:52.300 --> 01:17:54.680
from the car. I was next to him. You got me out.

01:17:55.199 --> 01:17:57.399
You brought me in the ambulance. You kept coming

01:17:57.399 --> 01:17:59.100
back, telling me what was going on with my husband.

01:17:59.399 --> 01:18:01.180
You made sure that we were in the same ambulance.

01:18:01.319 --> 01:18:04.850
And so there's tears going down her. her face

01:18:04.850 --> 01:18:08.350
and she says every morning at breakfast we thank

01:18:08.350 --> 01:18:10.949
god for you guys every morning we say a prayer

01:18:10.949 --> 01:18:16.069
for you and i'm like i said yeah i remember that

01:18:16.069 --> 01:18:18.149
call you know how's your husband doing you know

01:18:18.149 --> 01:18:19.930
he's okay well he's got a lamp and blah blah

01:18:19.930 --> 01:18:23.590
blah she goes away i i don't remember that call

01:18:23.590 --> 01:18:26.310
you know how many people i cut out of cars on

01:18:26.310 --> 01:18:29.989
interstate 10 10 years working as a company officer

01:18:29.989 --> 01:18:33.560
on ladder 11. You remember, you know, but how

01:18:33.560 --> 01:18:35.760
many other people that I have to do that? And

01:18:35.760 --> 01:18:38.079
like I walked away going, wow, man, I had no

01:18:38.079 --> 01:18:42.220
idea that I had that much impact on a person's

01:18:42.220 --> 01:18:44.439
life. And I don't think that we think of what

01:18:44.439 --> 01:18:47.500
we do every day. We might not remember that call,

01:18:47.579 --> 01:18:49.579
but they're going to remember us vividly for

01:18:49.579 --> 01:18:54.439
the rest of their lives. So, I mean, that's who

01:18:54.439 --> 01:18:57.680
gets to go to work every day. And, you know,

01:18:57.699 --> 01:18:59.439
you could hate the evil empire that you work

01:18:59.439 --> 01:19:02.500
for and it should be better here. my God, we're

01:19:02.500 --> 01:19:05.359
making people cry 15 years later in a grocery

01:19:05.359 --> 01:19:08.359
store over it. Yeah. No, I mean, as far as what

01:19:08.359 --> 01:19:11.060
we do, I couldn't agree more. I really couldn't.

01:19:11.079 --> 01:19:15.079
I think where there's a wasted opportunity, it's

01:19:15.079 --> 01:19:17.859
funny because I'm writing literally as right

01:19:17.859 --> 01:19:20.479
before we sat down, I was finishing up the pilot

01:19:20.479 --> 01:19:22.760
for this, but I'm writing a script for television

01:19:22.760 --> 01:19:26.779
from my last book because we have done such a

01:19:26.779 --> 01:19:29.619
terrible job as a profession. of telling people

01:19:29.619 --> 01:19:32.199
what we actually do not only what our men and

01:19:32.199 --> 01:19:33.840
women go through and i think that really needs

01:19:33.840 --> 01:19:36.140
to be told as well but what does a firefighter

01:19:36.140 --> 01:19:38.579
do i mean how many times you know in a combined

01:19:38.579 --> 01:19:40.640
system have you been told oh why is there a fire

01:19:40.640 --> 01:19:44.840
engine on my medical call in 2025 when we've

01:19:44.840 --> 01:19:47.739
been doing ems since the 60s in pittsburgh you

01:19:47.739 --> 01:19:51.000
know so or the 70s combined at least in you know

01:19:51.000 --> 01:19:54.630
miami and la and So we've just done such a terrible

01:19:54.630 --> 01:19:56.930
job of educating the people what we do. And I

01:19:56.930 --> 01:19:58.829
think that's why we have problems getting getting

01:19:58.829 --> 01:20:00.869
finances, for example, when it comes to budgetary

01:20:00.869 --> 01:20:03.470
cuts, because they think that we sit around smoking

01:20:03.470 --> 01:20:05.829
cigars, patting the Dalmatian and playing cards

01:20:05.829 --> 01:20:08.470
when, you know, that couldn't be further from

01:20:08.470 --> 01:20:11.369
the truth. But we did a little of that back at

01:20:11.369 --> 01:20:14.149
you may have. We did Bay Hockey and some other

01:20:14.149 --> 01:20:17.649
stuff. But but then you flip it on its head.

01:20:18.279 --> 01:20:21.279
We also have an amazing opportunity to be the

01:20:21.279 --> 01:20:24.199
proactive voice. Not that we are there making

01:20:24.199 --> 01:20:26.159
proactive changes. We're the ones on the end

01:20:26.159 --> 01:20:29.159
of 911 or 999 or 112 or wherever you are around

01:20:29.159 --> 01:20:33.319
the world. But if you imagine the impact, for

01:20:33.319 --> 01:20:36.140
example, if you had a bunch of firefighters saying

01:20:36.140 --> 01:20:38.880
that that's exactly like you just detailed, like

01:20:38.880 --> 01:20:41.180
the freeway is where we see most of our calls.

01:20:41.760 --> 01:20:43.840
What are we going to do about driving safety?

01:20:44.489 --> 01:20:46.949
What are we going to do about improving the standards

01:20:46.949 --> 01:20:48.890
for the driving test and make it a little bit

01:20:48.890 --> 01:20:51.409
harder so our drivers have to actually learn

01:20:51.409 --> 01:20:53.630
how to navigate and therefore reduce some of

01:20:53.630 --> 01:20:56.090
these issues? We have the ability to actually

01:20:56.090 --> 01:20:58.689
be a very powerful voice. But as I've always

01:20:58.689 --> 01:21:01.710
said, we don't have a Jocko Willink. We don't

01:21:01.710 --> 01:21:05.529
have a member of our profession who's front and

01:21:05.529 --> 01:21:08.590
center in all the biggest podcasts and TV shows.

01:21:10.329 --> 01:21:12.270
I think that there's an opportunity, not for

01:21:12.270 --> 01:21:14.310
us day to day in the station so much, but as

01:21:14.310 --> 01:21:17.369
a profession to be like, hey, 40 ,000 people

01:21:17.369 --> 01:21:20.970
die every year on the roads. Hundreds of thousands

01:21:20.970 --> 01:21:24.569
are maimed. We see it. We're the ones cutting

01:21:24.569 --> 01:21:28.050
these people out of the cars. Let's push an initiative

01:21:28.050 --> 01:21:30.250
to start making the roads safer, not by putting

01:21:30.250 --> 01:21:32.670
speed bumps and signs everywhere, but educating

01:21:32.670 --> 01:21:34.909
these young people on how to actually drive.

01:21:35.550 --> 01:21:37.350
you know and then no disrespect to the people

01:21:37.350 --> 01:21:39.390
we just don't teach them well a driving test

01:21:39.390 --> 01:21:42.329
or a joke so i think that's where for me on the

01:21:42.329 --> 01:21:46.069
mission side we see the worst things as you said

01:21:46.069 --> 01:21:48.789
but some of the most of these are preventable

01:21:48.789 --> 01:21:51.689
how can we be one of the voices as well to also

01:21:51.689 --> 01:21:54.649
start shifting some proactive measures so that

01:21:54.649 --> 01:21:58.289
we don't cut so many people out of a car well

01:21:58.289 --> 01:22:02.590
i don't know how many if we're going to get drivers

01:22:02.590 --> 01:22:05.250
to drive better i think we're there to pick up

01:22:05.250 --> 01:22:07.590
the pieces i'm going to give that to the dmv

01:22:07.590 --> 01:22:11.489
but i i totally agree i i think that what we

01:22:11.489 --> 01:22:13.609
project are like we're wearing all this stuff

01:22:13.609 --> 01:22:16.050
and we're firefighters and they don't see us

01:22:16.050 --> 01:22:19.710
doing the ems the hazmat all the other the stuff

01:22:19.710 --> 01:22:25.810
that we do so my dad uh has always been a champion

01:22:25.810 --> 01:22:29.970
at getting resource well the last few years uh

01:22:29.970 --> 01:22:33.670
him going to the city council you know We use

01:22:33.670 --> 01:22:36.489
a thing called FIREDAP. God, what did DAP stand

01:22:36.489 --> 01:22:40.350
for? Data Analysis Program. Like you really looked

01:22:40.350 --> 01:22:44.029
at the stuff. And it was always just how many

01:22:44.029 --> 01:22:47.949
people we need to fight a fire. How many people

01:22:47.949 --> 01:22:50.890
on average are going to experience their own

01:22:50.890 --> 01:22:55.510
house fire? It's like one in a hundred. So when

01:22:55.510 --> 01:22:58.529
we push this is what we need, you're talking

01:22:58.529 --> 01:23:02.430
to a dead audience, aren't you? And probably

01:23:02.430 --> 01:23:05.949
if you're in a room with 300 people, maybe one

01:23:05.949 --> 01:23:09.430
person in that room has had a fire. So my dad

01:23:09.430 --> 01:23:11.569
shifted gears and he says, if your grandmother

01:23:11.569 --> 01:23:15.390
has a full code and we come in to treat her and

01:23:15.390 --> 01:23:18.670
try to revive her, this is how many people it

01:23:18.670 --> 01:23:22.029
takes. How many people are going to call 911

01:23:22.029 --> 01:23:25.689
at the end of their life or during or medical

01:23:25.689 --> 01:23:30.130
stuff? So he started presenting. What we did

01:23:30.130 --> 01:23:33.949
and more of where I want to make it to where

01:23:33.949 --> 01:23:36.050
I can connect with you when I'm asking you for

01:23:36.050 --> 01:23:39.710
money or to make things better is this is what

01:23:39.710 --> 01:23:43.229
we do. And everyone here is going to call 911

01:23:43.229 --> 01:23:46.130
for a medical call sometime in their life. So

01:23:46.130 --> 01:23:49.029
he's touching on that. And the burning babies

01:23:49.029 --> 01:23:52.430
and all of that stuff, it falls on deaf ears.

01:23:53.149 --> 01:23:55.689
And we do need to do a better job of saying,

01:23:55.750 --> 01:23:57.590
no, this is what we're here for. When grandma

01:23:57.590 --> 01:24:00.409
dies, we need four people in that room to try

01:24:00.409 --> 01:24:02.010
to save her life. This is what they're going

01:24:02.010 --> 01:24:04.670
to do. We need people to get her to the hospital.

01:24:05.729 --> 01:24:08.829
We need, we need, we need. And it's not based

01:24:08.829 --> 01:24:10.729
on a house fire that they're never going to have,

01:24:10.850 --> 01:24:15.270
you know? Yeah, absolutely. I know your dad was,

01:24:15.310 --> 01:24:17.189
again, you know, known for using the phrase customer

01:24:17.189 --> 01:24:19.149
service. And I think, you know, really at that

01:24:19.149 --> 01:24:22.130
also. circles back around to kindness and compassion

01:24:22.130 --> 01:24:25.210
you know and again if you've got the the workforce

01:24:25.210 --> 01:24:27.350
that you actually wanted to hire and you've got

01:24:27.350 --> 01:24:29.470
fitness standards and you've got like you said

01:24:29.470 --> 01:24:33.050
the staffing that you need then you know the

01:24:33.050 --> 01:24:36.069
delivery of service is ultimately great human

01:24:36.069 --> 01:24:38.270
beings in uniform doing what they do and i think

01:24:38.270 --> 01:24:41.069
it's that kindness and compassion that we're

01:24:41.069 --> 01:24:42.909
not seeing and even with this younger generation

01:24:43.560 --> 01:24:45.619
when you know there's a lot of people on instagram

01:24:45.619 --> 01:24:48.279
filming themselves you know with two three years

01:24:48.279 --> 01:24:50.380
on with a big mustache and a helmet and leaning

01:24:50.380 --> 01:24:52.659
on a pipe ball in front of a burnt out house

01:24:52.659 --> 01:24:55.739
they didn't save and that's not what we do and

01:24:55.739 --> 01:24:57.640
certainly didn't do that point it's not you know

01:24:57.640 --> 01:25:00.659
with the other 95 like you said and i've always

01:25:00.659 --> 01:25:03.359
i wrote this in my first book one of the most

01:25:03.359 --> 01:25:05.520
rewarding things that we ever did on truck one

01:25:05.520 --> 01:25:09.359
in anaheim was the back to bed calls because

01:25:09.359 --> 01:25:13.300
there's nothing more rewarding Then going to

01:25:13.300 --> 01:25:16.760
a home of an elderly couple, the wife's on the

01:25:16.760 --> 01:25:19.319
floor, she soiled herself. The husband is looking

01:25:19.319 --> 01:25:21.479
there and he's heartbroken because he was once

01:25:21.479 --> 01:25:24.319
a broly man and now he's frail and he can't pick

01:25:24.319 --> 01:25:28.000
up the love of his life. And we walk in, we pick

01:25:28.000 --> 01:25:30.199
her up, we clean her up, we change her clothes

01:25:30.199 --> 01:25:32.840
and we put her back to bed. No one's going to

01:25:32.840 --> 01:25:34.560
make a movie about that, but that's some of the

01:25:34.560 --> 01:25:37.279
most beautiful, heroic stuff that happens in

01:25:37.279 --> 01:25:40.770
EMS agencies and fire and law enforcement. that's

01:25:40.770 --> 01:25:42.909
what we've got to do is tell the whole story

01:25:42.909 --> 01:25:46.369
of what we do it but we're so attached to this

01:25:46.369 --> 01:25:49.909
ego element of oh i'm a salty firefighter in

01:25:49.909 --> 01:25:51.750
a profession where things don't burn very much

01:25:51.750 --> 01:25:53.689
anymore and that's a great thing that's a testament

01:25:53.689 --> 01:25:57.050
to building codes and fire prevention but be

01:25:57.050 --> 01:25:58.970
proud of all the other things we do because like

01:25:58.970 --> 01:26:02.270
you said we do an amazing job but we've got to

01:26:02.270 --> 01:26:05.350
tell the fucking story of what we do otherwise

01:26:05.350 --> 01:26:08.489
as you said you go to a room of politicians you

01:26:08.489 --> 01:26:11.029
ask for a budget that's justified that you need

01:26:11.029 --> 01:26:13.369
and they stare at you and going well why do you

01:26:13.369 --> 01:26:15.310
need that you guys barely do anything you get

01:26:15.310 --> 01:26:19.949
cats out of trees yeah but i totally agree with

01:26:19.949 --> 01:26:24.409
you getting mr smith off the ground and back

01:26:24.409 --> 01:26:29.689
into bed uh for us to discount that and then

01:26:29.689 --> 01:26:32.689
the burly guy that his whole identity is like

01:26:32.689 --> 01:26:35.569
okay we're going to go on 100 calls and what

01:26:35.569 --> 01:26:38.090
you're we're going to use your identity on two

01:26:38.090 --> 01:26:41.229
of them what is what good are you on the other

01:26:41.229 --> 01:26:44.270
98 when you don't give the people this is what

01:26:44.270 --> 01:26:48.890
we're here for and my dad is everything he did

01:26:48.890 --> 01:26:52.689
it was he he based it on the service that we're

01:26:52.689 --> 01:26:57.760
delivering uh it wasn't egos or traditions it

01:26:57.760 --> 01:26:59.960
was we have to and that's what a company officer

01:26:59.960 --> 01:27:04.079
needs to do is manage the daily routine on the

01:27:04.079 --> 01:27:06.420
service that we're delivering to our customers

01:27:06.420 --> 01:27:11.979
which is the community yeah the service you know

01:27:11.979 --> 01:27:18.079
the that word it comes from serve and man hey

01:27:18.079 --> 01:27:20.539
if you're not here to serve your community you're

01:27:20.539 --> 01:27:23.609
a cancer and i i couldn't stand going to work

01:27:23.609 --> 01:27:26.289
with those people where every call was an inconvenience

01:27:26.289 --> 01:27:29.710
to them no no it's not we are making an impact

01:27:29.710 --> 01:27:31.869
on these people's lives and getting paid for

01:27:31.869 --> 01:27:35.869
it i mean you picked the wrong like we need postal

01:27:35.869 --> 01:27:43.750
workers uh -huh we need meat packers yeah 100

01:27:43.750 --> 01:27:46.989
well A couple of things and then we'll go to

01:27:46.989 --> 01:27:49.149
some closing questions. But firstly, you touched

01:27:49.149 --> 01:27:51.810
on cell phones and it's an interesting time because

01:27:51.810 --> 01:27:54.550
in fire stations, when they're building them

01:27:54.550 --> 01:27:56.390
now, they're doing individual dorms. And from

01:27:56.390 --> 01:27:59.430
a sleep point of view, that is fantastic. I've

01:27:59.430 --> 01:28:02.409
always said it's insanity to wake up an entire

01:28:02.409 --> 01:28:04.550
station of people, especially in a large station

01:28:04.550 --> 01:28:07.909
for, let's say, rescue. You know, two firefighters

01:28:07.909 --> 01:28:10.250
go on that call and eight firefighters wake up

01:28:10.250 --> 01:28:14.170
for it. It's crazy. obviously now that really

01:28:14.170 --> 01:28:16.609
creates a problem because people go into their

01:28:16.609 --> 01:28:18.369
own individual bunks and now you've got this

01:28:18.369 --> 01:28:20.529
device that people are just kind of drawn to

01:28:20.529 --> 01:28:24.210
and it kind of fractures the firehouse then so

01:28:24.210 --> 01:28:26.789
from that lens you've got this younger generation

01:28:26.789 --> 01:28:29.829
you know they are raised with these screens now

01:28:29.829 --> 01:28:31.670
and even you know let's be honest a lot of us

01:28:31.670 --> 01:28:33.510
you know older ones are also using these same

01:28:33.510 --> 01:28:38.010
devices what are you telling these leaders as

01:28:38.010 --> 01:28:40.810
far as you know bringing that community back

01:28:40.810 --> 01:28:43.470
to the firehouse and not letting it stay fractured

01:28:43.470 --> 01:28:45.409
especially god forbid after covid where they

01:28:45.409 --> 01:28:51.369
were told not to eat and sit together well you

01:28:51.369 --> 01:28:55.510
know concurrent theme throughout the book and

01:28:55.510 --> 01:29:00.489
what we teach is lead by example and if you go

01:29:00.489 --> 01:29:04.989
to fire stations a lot of the people the times

01:29:04.989 --> 01:29:08.239
when that is going on The company officer is

01:29:08.239 --> 01:29:10.460
the one back in their room isolating themselves

01:29:10.460 --> 01:29:14.560
and setting that example. And then another thing

01:29:14.560 --> 01:29:18.140
that really, and I don't know if you mentioned

01:29:18.140 --> 01:29:21.579
it, it was COVID, right? That put it on steroids.

01:29:22.239 --> 01:29:25.340
But to me, it's the company officer has to get

01:29:25.340 --> 01:29:29.140
out of their office. They have to create an environment

01:29:29.140 --> 01:29:31.859
where they have activities that require everybody

01:29:31.859 --> 01:29:37.119
on deck and involved. You know, it's a 24 -hour

01:29:37.119 --> 01:29:38.899
shift, so there are going to be periods where,

01:29:38.960 --> 01:29:41.119
okay, we're done hanging out. Let's just all

01:29:41.119 --> 01:29:44.779
go to our – I think it's good to have that safe

01:29:44.779 --> 01:29:46.760
place where somebody can go and have a private

01:29:46.760 --> 01:29:49.020
conversation with their spouse or take a nap

01:29:49.020 --> 01:29:52.000
and not – but I totally agree with you. We're

01:29:52.000 --> 01:29:54.720
not all going to hang out in our bunks all day.

01:29:55.140 --> 01:29:57.399
So I think the company officer has to be the

01:29:57.399 --> 01:29:59.100
first one to take the initiative of getting out

01:29:59.100 --> 01:30:02.359
of their bunk and doing stuff and creating the

01:30:02.359 --> 01:30:05.779
opportunities for group activities. so it all

01:30:05.779 --> 01:30:08.380
starts there but if the company officers went

01:30:08.380 --> 01:30:11.899
back there looking at their phone or running

01:30:11.899 --> 01:30:15.020
their business or whatever i mean it's not going

01:30:15.020 --> 01:30:19.079
to be good for anybody else there's no question

01:30:19.079 --> 01:30:21.739
that the firehouses that have been cohesive that

01:30:21.739 --> 01:30:24.760
i worked through my career there was a strong

01:30:24.760 --> 01:30:28.000
element of working out together of of training

01:30:28.000 --> 01:30:31.399
together of eating together and so whether it's

01:30:31.399 --> 01:30:33.460
an actual shared suffering thing like a crossfit

01:30:33.460 --> 01:30:36.340
workout or simply preparing a meal and breaking

01:30:36.340 --> 01:30:39.500
bread that i think is such an important part

01:30:39.500 --> 01:30:41.399
of firehouse culture and like you say you don't

01:30:41.399 --> 01:30:43.500
have to be you know together all the time but

01:30:43.500 --> 01:30:46.039
like anaheim i remember we used to watch dexter

01:30:46.039 --> 01:30:48.199
every week that was one of the firehouse thing

01:30:48.199 --> 01:30:51.500
we used to go together and do the the uh ufc

01:30:51.500 --> 01:30:53.619
pay -per -view and of course tivo it because

01:30:53.619 --> 01:30:56.479
we get like 12 calls during it but you know all

01:30:56.479 --> 01:30:58.420
those and it wasn't all day every day it was

01:30:58.420 --> 01:31:00.960
just these little pockets of hours here and there

01:31:01.520 --> 01:31:04.100
where we came together and it worked. I mean,

01:31:04.119 --> 01:31:06.359
some of the men I worked with Anaheim came to

01:31:06.359 --> 01:31:09.079
my wedding. We're still, you know, close, close

01:31:09.079 --> 01:31:12.779
friends. We're talking almost 20 years now since

01:31:12.779 --> 01:31:17.159
I worked there. So it's crazy. Our routine was

01:31:17.159 --> 01:31:20.800
the same thing. We get together, get in the morning,

01:31:20.939 --> 01:31:24.520
the trucks, the station, and then we had a PT

01:31:24.520 --> 01:31:27.800
thing. We'd go out and drill and that would,

01:31:27.840 --> 01:31:31.760
we would hang out pretty much. The whole morning

01:31:31.760 --> 01:31:35.880
and after lunch, everything's cleaned up. It's

01:31:35.880 --> 01:31:39.260
from lunch till about 4 o 'clock in the afternoon

01:31:39.260 --> 01:31:44.239
was everybody's time. Like Andy and Opie were

01:31:44.239 --> 01:31:46.460
on, you know, some people are there. Another

01:31:46.460 --> 01:31:49.199
one in my day was Bob Ross, painting with Bob

01:31:49.199 --> 01:31:52.140
Ross. Love that guy. I mean, he came on at 1

01:31:52.140 --> 01:31:55.699
p .m. And like by 1 .15, you were sawing logs

01:31:55.699 --> 01:31:59.000
watching Bob, right? Uh -oh, you froze up there,

01:31:59.039 --> 01:32:02.579
James. So, and then we got back together about

01:32:02.579 --> 01:32:05.800
four o 'clock in the afternoon. And that took

01:32:05.800 --> 01:32:10.239
us to where we all went to bed. So, I don't know.

01:32:10.760 --> 01:32:13.640
It was all kind of, and another thing too is

01:32:13.640 --> 01:32:15.840
firefighters like a structure, right? They kind

01:32:15.840 --> 01:32:17.460
of like coming to work and having a routine.

01:32:17.539 --> 01:32:19.460
And that was kind of the routine with, like you

01:32:19.460 --> 01:32:21.479
say, the 12 calls that were going to interrupt

01:32:21.479 --> 01:32:23.159
the routine that we were trying to have every

01:32:23.159 --> 01:32:27.520
shift. Yeah. But the, again, like workout time.

01:32:28.720 --> 01:32:30.479
like somebody would be in the middle of a bench

01:32:30.479 --> 01:32:33.579
press oh my god this call is ruining my workout

01:32:33.579 --> 01:32:39.979
that's why we're here okay i have to do another

01:32:39.979 --> 01:32:45.819
warm -up before i can get to my peak yeah i always

01:32:45.819 --> 01:32:47.920
went into the workouts going i may not finish

01:32:47.920 --> 01:32:50.140
this and it's funny that i would honestly say

01:32:50.140 --> 01:32:53.279
90 of the workouts that i started i finished

01:32:53.819 --> 01:32:55.680
And if I hadn't done it because, oh, what if

01:32:55.680 --> 01:32:57.880
I get a call? I would be so, you know, so much

01:32:57.880 --> 01:33:00.479
weaker and less fit. So, you know, yeah, you

01:33:00.479 --> 01:33:02.899
get a call and sometimes it was a kind of a,

01:33:02.899 --> 01:33:04.939
you know, red line workout and you're drenched

01:33:04.939 --> 01:33:07.779
in sweat, but it is what it is. You know, I mean,

01:33:07.800 --> 01:33:09.720
you're a big boy and girl. You can, you can run

01:33:09.720 --> 01:33:11.659
the call sweaty and tired and you're going to

01:33:11.659 --> 01:33:14.119
be just fine. So, but yeah, I mean, getting angry

01:33:14.119 --> 01:33:16.699
about it, you know, you know, sometimes, you

01:33:16.699 --> 01:33:19.439
know, Murphy's law, every time you touch, you

01:33:19.439 --> 01:33:20.800
know, the exercise equipment, the tones are going

01:33:20.800 --> 01:33:22.770
to go off. And maybe those days you go, all right,

01:33:22.789 --> 01:33:24.130
I'm just going to go for a walk around the station

01:33:24.130 --> 01:33:28.050
tonight. At least we'll do that. Yeah, or jump

01:33:28.050 --> 01:33:31.550
rope or something. And if you come to work thinking

01:33:31.550 --> 01:33:33.609
that you're going to watch the entire Super Bowl,

01:33:33.789 --> 01:33:37.029
you really are living in a dream world, okay?

01:33:38.310 --> 01:33:42.369
Yeah, exactly. And then I think a company officer

01:33:42.369 --> 01:33:44.310
has to set that tone in the station. We're here

01:33:44.310 --> 01:33:46.470
for calls, right? And I don't want to hear any

01:33:46.470 --> 01:33:48.770
bellyaching on the way to a call that we're getting

01:33:48.770 --> 01:33:54.279
paid to go on. Absolutely. Well, I want to hit

01:33:54.279 --> 01:33:56.880
one more area because this is so pertinent. We

01:33:56.880 --> 01:33:58.420
obviously we've talked about, you know, different

01:33:58.420 --> 01:34:00.960
positions and different kind of leadership styles

01:34:00.960 --> 01:34:03.880
and philosophies. But as I touched on earlier,

01:34:04.119 --> 01:34:07.020
old James, you know, my crews, when someone was

01:34:07.020 --> 01:34:11.159
seeming like they were kind of getting a little

01:34:11.159 --> 01:34:13.710
salty, you know, we'd all we'd like a. pack of

01:34:13.710 --> 01:34:16.590
hyenas and we start pushing the buttons and you

01:34:16.590 --> 01:34:19.369
know it was a game and then now you know the

01:34:19.369 --> 01:34:22.489
last 10 years we're like oh okay yeah they were

01:34:22.489 --> 01:34:25.489
probably going through some stuff so what do

01:34:25.489 --> 01:34:29.170
you tell these leaders as far as identifying

01:34:29.170 --> 01:34:31.170
as you said sometimes we have good days sometimes

01:34:31.170 --> 01:34:34.250
we have bad days like when you start seeing that

01:34:34.250 --> 01:34:38.069
co -worker that firefighter whoever it is not

01:34:38.069 --> 01:34:42.260
themself not seeming the same way with this 2025

01:34:42.260 --> 01:34:45.039
lens and taking all the tools that we've learned,

01:34:45.100 --> 01:34:48.420
all the things that Tim talks about and looking

01:34:48.420 --> 01:34:51.159
at it as, let me not push their buttons. Let

01:34:51.159 --> 01:34:52.979
me figure out what's going on. Let me take them

01:34:52.979 --> 01:34:59.439
aside. Well, I think it's important to know when

01:34:59.439 --> 01:35:03.079
that it's okay to push their buttons to try to

01:35:03.079 --> 01:35:06.020
get the most out of them than when it's not okay

01:35:06.020 --> 01:35:08.279
and there's something going on with them. But

01:35:08.279 --> 01:35:10.520
firefighters are always, we're expert at pushing

01:35:10.520 --> 01:35:15.420
buttons, right? And part of the button pushing

01:35:15.420 --> 01:35:18.420
thing is you've got to know somebody really well

01:35:18.420 --> 01:35:22.600
in order to push their buttons. And that brings

01:35:22.600 --> 01:35:25.619
us back to the affiliative management style where

01:35:25.619 --> 01:35:27.939
a company officer really has to know their crew,

01:35:28.060 --> 01:35:30.739
and that's facilitating eating with them, cooking

01:35:30.739 --> 01:35:33.640
meals, knowing who they're married to, if they

01:35:33.640 --> 01:35:36.399
have kids, what's going on in their life. So

01:35:36.399 --> 01:35:42.439
if they start withdrawing, if they start their

01:35:42.439 --> 01:35:47.340
hygiene habits aren't what they used to be, they're

01:35:47.340 --> 01:35:51.670
getting to work later. they're they're they get

01:35:51.670 --> 01:35:55.630
angry quicker uh things that used to not bother

01:35:55.630 --> 01:35:59.210
them are bothering them i mean we know those

01:35:59.210 --> 01:36:01.369
people well enough where those have to be warning

01:36:01.369 --> 01:36:05.710
signs for us to to and listen i don't one of

01:36:05.710 --> 01:36:07.210
the things i hear is like okay you're trying

01:36:07.210 --> 01:36:09.369
to turn a company officer into a counselor and

01:36:09.369 --> 01:36:11.989
no i'm not But if you're going to get paid to

01:36:11.989 --> 01:36:13.970
manage a fire company, there's a certain set

01:36:13.970 --> 01:36:15.970
of things that a company officer has to be aware

01:36:15.970 --> 01:36:18.390
of and to manage, and it's just part of being

01:36:18.390 --> 01:36:20.949
a company officer. And one of those is seeing

01:36:20.949 --> 01:36:23.470
changes in your crew members. And that's going

01:36:23.470 --> 01:36:26.529
to happen a lot in our service because we work

01:36:26.529 --> 01:36:29.430
in one of the most stressful environments that

01:36:29.430 --> 01:36:32.430
are out there. So we have to be acutely aware

01:36:32.430 --> 01:36:35.090
of that. We have to engage. We have to make sure

01:36:35.090 --> 01:36:37.710
that they're eating and hydrating the way they

01:36:37.710 --> 01:36:39.930
need to. We talked about it through the whole

01:36:39.930 --> 01:36:42.329
podcast, James, is we have to make sure that

01:36:42.329 --> 01:36:44.470
they're exercising and get all this bad stuff

01:36:44.470 --> 01:36:47.489
out of them. But there's going to be a time maybe

01:36:47.489 --> 01:36:49.649
where we also have to have a private conversation

01:36:49.649 --> 01:36:51.670
with them and hand them a business card with

01:36:51.670 --> 01:36:53.409
the counselor's name and saying, hey, you need

01:36:53.409 --> 01:36:56.430
to talk to this person. It's beyond me, right?

01:36:59.050 --> 01:37:01.550
just a company else has to be acutely aware and

01:37:01.550 --> 01:37:03.829
i worked with basically the same crew for about

01:37:03.829 --> 01:37:06.909
10 years the same two engineers definitely but

01:37:06.909 --> 01:37:08.729
now i had senior firefighter for six or seven

01:37:08.729 --> 01:37:11.050
years i knew when something was going on with

01:37:11.050 --> 01:37:14.949
them and the earlier that you see it and say

01:37:14.949 --> 01:37:17.210
hey what's going on with you the easier it is

01:37:17.210 --> 01:37:20.189
to fix but i have been traveling around with

01:37:20.189 --> 01:37:21.789
this a lot of times they bring us in is because

01:37:21.789 --> 01:37:24.949
they had a firefighter suicide and what you hear

01:37:24.949 --> 01:37:30.729
all the time Hey, this guy, they said he was

01:37:30.729 --> 01:37:33.189
showing us all the signs. We saw it coming and

01:37:33.189 --> 01:37:35.869
we didn't do anything about it. I mean, how often

01:37:35.869 --> 01:37:38.949
have you, well, if you're seeing the signs, I

01:37:38.949 --> 01:37:42.310
get it like out of nowhere, this person, you

01:37:42.310 --> 01:37:44.529
know, commits suicide where there are no signs.

01:37:44.649 --> 01:37:47.010
I'm sure that's going to happen. But this was

01:37:47.010 --> 01:37:50.550
going on two, three years. You saw the downfall

01:37:50.550 --> 01:37:52.569
of this person and you didn't try to intervene.

01:37:53.359 --> 01:37:55.840
And this is a question I ask when that happened.

01:37:55.920 --> 01:37:57.779
Would that person want to commit a suicide if

01:37:57.779 --> 01:37:59.840
they didn't become a firefighter? And I'm going

01:37:59.840 --> 01:38:02.060
to say 99 % of the time, no, they would have

01:38:02.060 --> 01:38:03.520
never done that if they wouldn't have become

01:38:03.520 --> 01:38:07.800
a firefighter. So it's our job. It's us. That

01:38:07.800 --> 01:38:11.619
has to be in our wheelhouse to see that and prevent

01:38:11.619 --> 01:38:15.279
stuff like that from happening. What about saying

01:38:15.279 --> 01:38:17.960
a question? No, you did. You did. What about

01:38:17.960 --> 01:38:20.199
though? Cause this is, I would argue the most

01:38:20.199 --> 01:38:23.520
stigma is less stigma around alcohol use and

01:38:23.520 --> 01:38:25.479
when they're coming in and they're smelling of

01:38:25.479 --> 01:38:27.859
it and all that kind of thing. But the most stigma

01:38:27.859 --> 01:38:30.699
I see is, is drug use, illicit drug use, but

01:38:30.699 --> 01:38:33.020
these are all parts of the same exact conversation.

01:38:33.180 --> 01:38:35.920
There's a mental health crisis going on. So what

01:38:35.920 --> 01:38:38.279
do you tell the company or company officers and,

01:38:38.300 --> 01:38:41.119
or just the firefighters? you suspect there's

01:38:41.119 --> 01:38:43.779
there's some sort of drug use going on you suspect

01:38:43.779 --> 01:38:46.220
this person's struggling but it's not just a

01:38:46.220 --> 01:38:48.079
straight you know we're worried about suicide

01:38:48.079 --> 01:38:51.340
conversation now you know it's a it's a slightly

01:38:51.340 --> 01:38:56.699
different conversation needs to be had what drug

01:38:56.699 --> 01:39:06.409
i mean pick one well i As marijuana gets more

01:39:06.409 --> 01:39:10.590
and more acceptable across the country, I think

01:39:10.590 --> 01:39:13.029
that that's probably even a better alternative

01:39:13.029 --> 01:39:16.069
than alcohol if you're going to pick which one

01:39:16.069 --> 01:39:18.770
that does more damage to you. But if you're looking

01:39:18.770 --> 01:39:26.069
at like methamphetamines, high -end drugs like

01:39:26.069 --> 01:39:28.130
that where you're really trying to escape reality,

01:39:28.550 --> 01:39:34.140
then they have some issues. Should I tell this

01:39:34.140 --> 01:39:38.359
story? And I work for this company officer, and

01:39:38.359 --> 01:39:40.859
I work for both the ones I'm going to talk about.

01:39:42.340 --> 01:39:44.420
I'm at one of their funerals. He was an engine

01:39:44.420 --> 01:39:47.979
captain at my station for about five years. He

01:39:47.979 --> 01:39:50.979
died of cancer. But I'm at his funeral, and one

01:39:50.979 --> 01:39:53.560
of my earlier captains, when I was a firefighter,

01:39:53.600 --> 01:39:56.939
was there, and he came up to me at the end of

01:39:56.939 --> 01:39:59.239
the thing, and he says, I went to your dad's

01:39:59.239 --> 01:40:03.500
funeral, and I want to talk to you, but... There

01:40:03.500 --> 01:40:06.520
was a crowd around you. He says, so I got to

01:40:06.520 --> 01:40:08.520
tell you, your dad saved my life. He says, I

01:40:08.520 --> 01:40:12.500
was addicted to cocaine and amphetamines. I was

01:40:12.500 --> 01:40:14.600
a sex addict. And he says, I was this close to

01:40:14.600 --> 01:40:17.460
committing suicide. And I saw your dad and your

01:40:17.460 --> 01:40:19.359
dad was patient with me. And he kept saying,

01:40:19.439 --> 01:40:21.020
Joe, we got to get you fixed. We got to get you

01:40:21.020 --> 01:40:23.220
fixed. And he finally put me in a 12 -step program.

01:40:24.340 --> 01:40:29.319
And he said, that saved my life. So he was thinking,

01:40:29.399 --> 01:40:33.130
you know, tears are running down. And the stuff

01:40:33.130 --> 01:40:38.430
that Joe saw through his career and the dead

01:40:38.430 --> 01:40:41.270
people that we worked on, I mean, Joe was just

01:40:41.270 --> 01:40:43.250
stressed out. He got divorced. All this stuff

01:40:43.250 --> 01:40:47.189
was going on in his life. So my dad looked at

01:40:47.189 --> 01:40:51.069
that as you're taking all of – when we hired

01:40:51.069 --> 01:40:52.850
you, you were the best person on the planet.

01:40:52.869 --> 01:40:55.170
But now here 15 years later, you're a stressed

01:40:55.170 --> 01:40:58.170
out person that we need to help you get back

01:40:58.170 --> 01:41:00.569
to your baseline. And it's because of this job.

01:41:01.240 --> 01:41:07.199
Right. So that's my first response is let's try

01:41:07.199 --> 01:41:09.460
to help them get better. I mean, we're kind of

01:41:09.460 --> 01:41:12.899
responsible for them getting this way. Why don't

01:41:12.899 --> 01:41:14.800
we get a better so that they can live the rest

01:41:14.800 --> 01:41:17.180
of their life without having to put a gun in

01:41:17.180 --> 01:41:21.239
their mouth? So that's the way I look at them.

01:41:21.279 --> 01:41:23.020
I know a lot of other people, like if you fail

01:41:23.020 --> 01:41:24.920
a drug test, you're out of here. They don't take

01:41:24.920 --> 01:41:29.199
any accountability in it or like you're left

01:41:29.199 --> 01:41:35.550
on an island. I don't know. To me, if I had a

01:41:35.550 --> 01:41:38.470
member coming in hungover all the time and this

01:41:38.470 --> 01:41:40.529
is a result of stress and we need to get you

01:41:40.529 --> 01:41:42.449
some help because it's going to lead down the

01:41:42.449 --> 01:41:46.770
worst road. Did I answer your question, James?

01:41:46.829 --> 01:41:49.750
I don't know. Yeah, no, you did. 100%. I think

01:41:49.750 --> 01:41:52.109
that's just it. And you literally used the analogy

01:41:52.109 --> 01:41:55.090
that I do. If you have someone, whether it's

01:41:55.090 --> 01:41:57.029
the salty guy, whether it's someone who's coming

01:41:57.029 --> 01:42:00.539
in hungover, whatever it is. And from day one,

01:42:00.600 --> 01:42:03.640
they were an absolute turd. Then that's a different

01:42:03.640 --> 01:42:07.399
conversation. But just like you said, all these

01:42:07.399 --> 01:42:10.479
bright eyed firefighters that towed the line

01:42:10.479 --> 01:42:14.180
on that first day that were, you know, incredible,

01:42:14.399 --> 01:42:16.479
average, whatever. They were good firefighters

01:42:16.479 --> 01:42:19.859
for all those years. And now 10, 15 years, they're

01:42:19.859 --> 01:42:22.800
going through this stuff. of course the job is

01:42:22.800 --> 01:42:24.899
a part of it. I mean, you know, I talk about

01:42:24.899 --> 01:42:26.239
childhood trauma, all these other things too.

01:42:26.300 --> 01:42:28.260
There are other compounding elements, of course,

01:42:28.279 --> 01:42:30.460
but there's a vicious cycle. And going back to

01:42:30.460 --> 01:42:32.800
the sleep deprivation, you know, you've got the

01:42:32.800 --> 01:42:34.739
sleep deprivation, you've got the toxic leadership,

01:42:34.920 --> 01:42:37.140
the organizational betrayal, the breakdowns in

01:42:37.140 --> 01:42:39.899
relationships because we're never home, the side

01:42:39.899 --> 01:42:41.699
effects of alcohol because you're not sleeping

01:42:41.699 --> 01:42:44.220
properly. You know, the list goes on and on and

01:42:44.220 --> 01:42:48.020
on. But many of those are preventable and many

01:42:48.020 --> 01:42:51.020
of those are. job related especially this generation

01:42:51.020 --> 01:42:53.220
that we're talking about you know the last you

01:42:53.220 --> 01:42:56.340
know i mean 50 years really when ems really start

01:42:56.340 --> 01:42:59.739
taking off so yeah of course the job is a massive

01:42:59.739 --> 01:43:02.060
part of this so i agree with you a thousand percent

01:43:02.060 --> 01:43:04.300
we owe it to that person to try and get them

01:43:04.300 --> 01:43:07.399
to help go through you know the hopefully they

01:43:07.399 --> 01:43:09.039
got a good union and they've got they've got

01:43:09.039 --> 01:43:12.119
direct links to places where they can go to you

01:43:12.119 --> 01:43:14.739
know sobriety and addiction counseling and mental

01:43:14.739 --> 01:43:17.279
health counseling but you know why would you

01:43:17.279 --> 01:43:20.699
discard someone Who you, as you said, you thought

01:43:20.699 --> 01:43:23.079
was the perfect fit for your department just

01:43:23.079 --> 01:43:25.420
because they had the audacity to start struggling.

01:43:27.319 --> 01:43:31.539
Yeah, it's not fair to that. And like I said,

01:43:31.659 --> 01:43:35.039
would this happen to you if you never took this

01:43:35.039 --> 01:43:38.100
job? And I think most of the time it would not.

01:43:38.199 --> 01:43:41.039
It's the job that creates the stress and all

01:43:41.039 --> 01:43:44.439
that. And Tim, Tim Deese calls it your backpack.

01:43:44.720 --> 01:43:46.819
You know, you throw stuff in your backpack and

01:43:46.819 --> 01:43:49.619
it gets full and then it tears and then stuff

01:43:49.619 --> 01:43:54.520
starts coming out of it that they never dealt

01:43:54.520 --> 01:43:55.979
with. They just kept throwing in their backpack.

01:43:56.260 --> 01:43:59.880
And we talked about earlier, our service attracts

01:43:59.880 --> 01:44:03.359
those people that are comfortable in chaos. So

01:44:03.359 --> 01:44:06.319
they come with a backpack that's half full. Absolutely.

01:44:06.899 --> 01:44:10.420
And then we throw, we fill the other half. And

01:44:10.420 --> 01:44:12.239
we go, oh, it was your childhood. Well, it was

01:44:12.239 --> 01:44:16.880
a combination of both, you know. But me, I did

01:44:16.880 --> 01:44:19.960
24 years out in the field, and there was a call

01:44:19.960 --> 01:44:23.880
that I went on, and kids, freeway, the whole

01:44:23.880 --> 01:44:26.020
nine yards. And, like, going back to the station,

01:44:26.119 --> 01:44:28.479
I said, my backpack, I ain't going on another

01:44:28.479 --> 01:44:31.500
EMS call. I don't want to throw another. That's

01:44:31.500 --> 01:44:33.539
my last one. So it was just full. It's going

01:44:33.539 --> 01:44:35.659
to happen to everybody that's in it long enough.

01:44:37.579 --> 01:44:41.609
So. I had a great leader, Terry, my captain in

01:44:41.609 --> 01:44:44.449
Anaheim, and we had a horrendous wreck. I wrote

01:44:44.449 --> 01:44:47.930
about it in my first book, but a little, I think

01:44:47.930 --> 01:44:50.550
she was basically about three years old, was

01:44:50.550 --> 01:44:55.489
decapitated in a wreck, and she was still pinned

01:44:55.489 --> 01:44:57.489
in. It was obviously a fatality. We worked the

01:44:57.489 --> 01:45:00.909
wreck. The driver was actually okay. The passenger

01:45:00.909 --> 01:45:05.579
was killed. we clear the scene where you know

01:45:05.579 --> 01:45:07.220
we're going to go back and extricate the child

01:45:07.220 --> 01:45:09.619
when you know pd are done and the coroner's ready

01:45:09.619 --> 01:45:13.239
for us and we and we're young firefighters myself

01:45:13.239 --> 01:45:16.020
and my partner and we're getting ready we get

01:45:16.020 --> 01:45:18.220
toned down we're getting ready to go and terry

01:45:18.220 --> 01:45:21.380
dfo's us he's like you are not coming with us

01:45:21.380 --> 01:45:23.380
and we're of course like embarrassed i'm like

01:45:23.380 --> 01:45:25.659
no no we'll be fine we'll be fine he goes you

01:45:25.659 --> 01:45:29.739
are gonna see so much horrible in your life you

01:45:29.739 --> 01:45:32.390
don't need to add this to the list He and the

01:45:32.390 --> 01:45:34.329
engineer were getting ready to retire shortly

01:45:34.329 --> 01:45:37.189
after. And so and I thought that was such incredible

01:45:37.189 --> 01:45:40.090
leadership because would we have been OK? Probably.

01:45:40.409 --> 01:45:42.890
But did we need to be there when really you just

01:45:42.890 --> 01:45:45.770
need one person on the spreaders? No, we didn't.

01:45:45.789 --> 01:45:47.750
And I've said the same thing even as a medic.

01:45:47.909 --> 01:45:50.529
You know, if you go in and it's, you know, you're

01:45:50.529 --> 01:45:52.289
just seeing if it's obvious signs of death. There's

01:45:52.289 --> 01:45:55.810
a whole crew need to go in. No, they don't. And,

01:45:55.869 --> 01:45:58.229
you know, there's no medal for seeing the most

01:45:58.229 --> 01:46:01.770
horrible shit. So even with that backpack. As

01:46:01.770 --> 01:46:04.710
a leader, can you mitigate how many of these

01:46:04.710 --> 01:46:06.710
things that your crew sees? And I thought that

01:46:06.710 --> 01:46:09.470
was such a powerful lesson from a true, true

01:46:09.470 --> 01:46:15.029
servant leader that I work with. Yeah. And I

01:46:15.029 --> 01:46:17.010
talk about that in the book. If you know you're

01:46:17.010 --> 01:46:19.270
going on a dead person, minimize, because every

01:46:19.270 --> 01:46:21.170
dead person that we go on, a little pebble we

01:46:21.170 --> 01:46:24.310
throw back in there, any pebble that you can

01:46:24.310 --> 01:46:27.189
prevent from going into someone's backpack, prevent

01:46:27.189 --> 01:46:31.550
it. Yeah. and then when you're young i mean it's

01:46:31.550 --> 01:46:34.390
empty right yeah a lot of room in here right

01:46:34.390 --> 01:46:36.470
it's when you get older and it starts filling

01:46:36.470 --> 01:46:42.850
up it's getting heavy absolutely and it's going

01:46:42.850 --> 01:46:46.750
to happen i mean uh and and hopefully that you're

01:46:46.750 --> 01:46:49.250
resilient enough where you know you can carry

01:46:49.250 --> 01:46:52.890
a lot of that but some people just come with

01:46:52.890 --> 01:46:55.270
it's half full when they get here and we hire

01:46:55.270 --> 01:46:57.130
a lot of people from the military i mean we're

01:46:57.130 --> 01:46:59.710
we're actually kidding ourselves if we don't

01:46:59.710 --> 01:47:02.569
realize that they've got some stuff and that

01:47:02.569 --> 01:47:05.170
we need to do some stuff to help them keep their

01:47:05.170 --> 01:47:07.710
resiliency going yeah especially this and the

01:47:07.710 --> 01:47:11.909
more the the more that you feel like your organization

01:47:11.909 --> 01:47:16.409
cares about you the less those uh pebbles are

01:47:16.409 --> 01:47:20.810
smaller and smaller because you got you're in

01:47:20.810 --> 01:47:24.479
good company you know yeah i got my back Absolutely.

01:47:24.479 --> 01:47:26.520
And even like you said, the tools, everything

01:47:26.520 --> 01:47:29.720
from nutrition to sleep through to mindfulness

01:47:29.720 --> 01:47:32.699
and counseling and even the psychedelics and

01:47:32.699 --> 01:47:34.199
things that people are realizing are working.

01:47:34.760 --> 01:47:38.239
There are so many tools that you can use. to

01:47:38.239 --> 01:47:41.399
turn those struggles into strengths i truly believe

01:47:41.399 --> 01:47:43.539
that post -traumatic growth the hope of that

01:47:43.539 --> 01:47:46.220
is what we should be talking about you had these

01:47:46.220 --> 01:47:48.399
things happen it's going to make you a great

01:47:48.399 --> 01:47:50.619
first responder but you can't bury them you've

01:47:50.619 --> 01:47:53.560
got to address them and then you'll be more compassionate

01:47:53.560 --> 01:47:56.060
and empathetic on scene you know you you have

01:47:56.060 --> 01:47:58.060
this diverse background you grow up in the streets

01:47:58.060 --> 01:48:00.880
here or in a domestic abuse home there and that's

01:48:00.880 --> 01:48:03.180
going to be an asset as you help these people

01:48:03.710 --> 01:48:05.430
but only if you deal with it. And I think that's

01:48:05.430 --> 01:48:07.270
the thing, again, going back to this younger

01:48:07.270 --> 01:48:09.869
generation, you're going to see them do this

01:48:09.869 --> 01:48:12.329
horrible stuff, but we are going to give you

01:48:12.329 --> 01:48:14.989
all the tools to, to stay in great physical health,

01:48:15.050 --> 01:48:17.550
you know, to work on the mental health. And so

01:48:17.550 --> 01:48:19.949
that when you go home, you're not, you know,

01:48:19.970 --> 01:48:21.770
your family aren't walking on eggshells that

01:48:21.770 --> 01:48:24.229
you can walk through the door and be a, you know,

01:48:24.229 --> 01:48:26.569
a loving mother or father and, and, you know,

01:48:26.569 --> 01:48:30.869
enjoy those 72 hours with your family. Exactly.

01:48:31.069 --> 01:48:34.560
And so just going to a bar, and hanging out with

01:48:34.560 --> 01:48:37.659
your co -workers who identify exactly what you

01:48:37.659 --> 01:48:39.939
went through and i just feel like this is a safer

01:48:39.939 --> 01:48:44.840
environment blah blah blah yeah absolutely all

01:48:44.840 --> 01:48:46.439
right well i appreciate that all very different

01:48:46.439 --> 01:48:48.439
you know interesting perspectives when it comes

01:48:48.439 --> 01:48:51.359
to leadership um for people listening let's first

01:48:51.359 --> 01:48:53.720
let them know where they can find the course

01:48:53.720 --> 01:48:57.939
in the book uh managing a fire company i know

01:48:57.939 --> 01:49:02.270
it's uh it's a long web address, but that's at

01:49:02.270 --> 01:49:05.710
managingafirecompany .com. It'll take you to

01:49:05.710 --> 01:49:09.850
our homepage. We also, we have an online training

01:49:09.850 --> 01:49:12.090
program. We have an instructor training program

01:49:12.090 --> 01:49:15.229
and we actually certify people as a managing

01:49:15.229 --> 01:49:18.029
a fire company. So it's a kind of a broad program

01:49:18.029 --> 01:49:21.250
that all starts with a textbook at managingafirecompany

01:49:21.250 --> 01:49:25.390
.com. We launched it about a year ago. It's really

01:49:25.390 --> 01:49:28.510
kind of taken off. I think it. Every fire department

01:49:28.510 --> 01:49:33.970
wants to do officer development, and I think

01:49:33.970 --> 01:49:37.229
they're seeing that this actually works, and

01:49:37.229 --> 01:49:39.789
it's something that we've gotten really good

01:49:39.789 --> 01:49:44.470
reviews. I taught a lot of incident command classes,

01:49:44.569 --> 01:49:48.109
and it's really fun to see people's competency

01:49:48.109 --> 01:49:51.329
run those incidents, but going to these and having

01:49:51.329 --> 01:49:54.390
them come back. And saying, I use your stuff

01:49:54.390 --> 01:49:57.170
and it worked and thank you so much. I don't

01:49:57.170 --> 01:49:59.430
know what I, I mean, I don't know the impact

01:49:59.430 --> 01:50:02.149
that I'm hearing. It's just a lot more satisfying.

01:50:03.430 --> 01:50:05.510
Absolutely. Well, I mean, it's a massive void

01:50:05.510 --> 01:50:08.229
that we've identified is we've got to teach people

01:50:08.229 --> 01:50:10.210
how, you know, the human skills or how to actually

01:50:10.210 --> 01:50:13.569
lead, not just simply, you know, have the classes

01:50:13.569 --> 01:50:17.869
that allow you to step up the ladder. And I appreciate

01:50:17.869 --> 01:50:19.989
the opportunity, James, coming on and talking

01:50:19.989 --> 01:50:23.539
about all that good stuff. So, you know, I ask

01:50:23.539 --> 01:50:25.880
you a question. Who do you think is more important

01:50:25.880 --> 01:50:28.319
in the fire department, the fire chief or the

01:50:28.319 --> 01:50:31.100
company officer? Oh, the company officer. I mean,

01:50:31.140 --> 01:50:33.920
like you said, the culture is set from the top.

01:50:33.960 --> 01:50:36.560
But who do most of us interact with every day?

01:50:36.659 --> 01:50:39.420
The company officer. So hopefully the company

01:50:39.420 --> 01:50:41.260
officer has got a good relationship with the

01:50:41.260 --> 01:50:45.060
chief. So then it just filters down. Yeah, hopefully

01:50:45.060 --> 01:50:47.659
I have a good chief. Yeah, it helps the company

01:50:47.659 --> 01:50:50.500
officer be even better. Absolutely. Well, that

01:50:50.500 --> 01:50:52.020
was your book. I just want to throw a couple

01:50:52.020 --> 01:50:54.340
of closing questions at you. The first one I

01:50:54.340 --> 01:50:56.819
love to ask, is there a book or are there books

01:50:56.819 --> 01:50:59.039
that you love to recommend? It can be related

01:50:59.039 --> 01:51:01.319
to our discussion today or completely unrelated.

01:51:05.479 --> 01:51:11.899
Well, my favorite book is the book Dune. But

01:51:11.899 --> 01:51:17.420
Primal Leadership talks about emotional intelligence

01:51:17.420 --> 01:51:25.279
here. And I can't, doctor, it's a doctor, primal

01:51:25.279 --> 01:51:28.319
leadership. I think it's really a good read.

01:51:28.659 --> 01:51:32.819
I'll look it up as you talk. That's where I got

01:51:32.819 --> 01:51:36.180
the six forms of leadership, management styles.

01:51:37.359 --> 01:51:41.579
And two, they looked at. successful companies

01:51:41.579 --> 01:51:43.579
and they thought it would be like really smart

01:51:43.579 --> 01:51:45.979
people and they went to college and it wasn't

01:51:45.979 --> 01:51:48.579
after interviewing thousands of these excellent

01:51:48.579 --> 01:51:51.319
managers it was because they had emotional intelligence

01:51:51.319 --> 01:51:53.479
and they knew how to treat people and get the

01:51:53.479 --> 01:51:56.039
most out of them so i think primal leadership

01:51:56.039 --> 01:51:58.739
really talks about those and what it does it

01:51:58.739 --> 01:52:02.220
reminds me when i read it of my dad and how he

01:52:02.220 --> 01:52:05.760
managed people so so that's my book that i would

01:52:05.760 --> 01:52:08.680
recommend for a firefighter so daniel just for

01:52:08.680 --> 01:52:11.979
entertainment read dune uh -huh daniel goldman

01:52:11.979 --> 01:52:14.460
is that right primal leadership yes yes that's

01:52:14.460 --> 01:52:17.140
it dr daniel goldman okay now you just opened

01:52:17.140 --> 01:52:18.880
up another thing quickly we're talking about

01:52:18.880 --> 01:52:21.439
leadership we're talking about obviously you

01:52:21.439 --> 01:52:24.699
know the promotional element one thing that's

01:52:24.699 --> 01:52:28.000
been kind of interesting again staying at the

01:52:28.000 --> 01:52:30.899
firefighter level my my whole career but watching

01:52:30.899 --> 01:52:33.619
these you know these people that go through these

01:52:33.619 --> 01:52:36.380
promotional processes and then the prerequisites

01:52:37.319 --> 01:52:41.659
is this necessity to have a college degree to

01:52:41.659 --> 01:52:45.539
promote. Having a college degree myself and arguably

01:52:45.539 --> 01:52:49.060
there not being a lot of real world application.

01:52:49.359 --> 01:52:51.260
I have mine in exercise physiology, so at least

01:52:51.260 --> 01:52:55.479
it's a pseudo real degree. I really question

01:52:55.479 --> 01:52:59.180
the validity of a degree as far as the ability

01:52:59.180 --> 01:53:02.479
to be a good leader in a promotional journey

01:53:02.479 --> 01:53:04.619
or a firefighter. What is your perspective on

01:53:04.619 --> 01:53:08.159
that? I agree with that. And it's not because

01:53:08.159 --> 01:53:11.479
I just, well, I have a PhD, a public high school

01:53:11.479 --> 01:53:19.380
diploma. But I never had one. So, but I don't

01:53:19.380 --> 01:53:22.680
want to say that I'm against people having degrees.

01:53:22.819 --> 01:53:25.159
And I get what you're saying. You know, you have

01:53:25.159 --> 01:53:27.000
to have a degree in order to get promoted battalion

01:53:27.000 --> 01:53:30.539
chief. And my degree is in archaeology, where

01:53:30.539 --> 01:53:38.520
it really doesn't apply to that service. So,

01:53:38.520 --> 01:53:41.899
the more, if you just look at somebody going

01:53:41.899 --> 01:53:44.260
through the academy in like a six -year course,

01:53:44.279 --> 01:53:46.300
they ought to get a bachelor's degree in fire

01:53:46.300 --> 01:53:50.279
service application or something. Because all

01:53:50.279 --> 01:53:53.220
the training, I mean, it ends up being more than

01:53:53.220 --> 01:53:57.239
what somebody going to college does. But my dad

01:53:57.239 --> 01:54:01.520
was a big fan of education. And he had a study

01:54:01.520 --> 01:54:03.520
one time, though. If you look at police officers.

01:54:04.159 --> 01:54:07.159
it doesn't matter what their degree is in uh

01:54:07.159 --> 01:54:10.359
if you if you have a bachelor's degree you're

01:54:10.359 --> 01:54:16.319
50 times 50 less likely to get a violence complaint

01:54:16.319 --> 01:54:19.539
against you excessive force if you have a master's

01:54:19.539 --> 01:54:24.140
degree you're 90 less likely to get excessive

01:54:24.140 --> 01:54:27.000
force complaint against you and it's it's not

01:54:27.000 --> 01:54:30.300
it doesn't apply to law enforcement but my logic

01:54:30.300 --> 01:54:34.420
and decision making is influenced by how the

01:54:34.420 --> 01:54:39.760
higher my intelligence is but for for a firefighter

01:54:39.760 --> 01:54:42.300
you know colleges just don't offer us the stuff

01:54:42.300 --> 01:54:46.699
that other occupations have i mean so to me it

01:54:46.699 --> 01:54:51.000
doesn't But here's another question. Are leaders

01:54:51.000 --> 01:54:53.739
born or can they be educated to where if I do

01:54:53.739 --> 01:54:57.699
go to fire leadership college, they'll actually

01:54:57.699 --> 01:55:00.439
graduate and be more of an effective leader for

01:55:00.439 --> 01:55:04.000
it? Or did I bring that skill set in just by

01:55:04.000 --> 01:55:06.779
the way I was raised, you know, by my parents

01:55:06.779 --> 01:55:13.579
and, like, natural? What do you think? Can you

01:55:13.579 --> 01:55:16.020
be educated to be a better leader or is it more

01:55:16.020 --> 01:55:20.479
of an ingrained? Well, I can tell you, I watched

01:55:20.479 --> 01:55:22.779
a group of local battalion chiefs go through

01:55:22.779 --> 01:55:27.659
Jocko Willink's muster. And that is a great leadership

01:55:27.659 --> 01:55:30.560
program. And then I watched nothing change. And

01:55:30.560 --> 01:55:32.319
most of those actually left that department.

01:55:32.720 --> 01:55:36.760
So inspiration certainly doesn't equal action,

01:55:36.859 --> 01:55:41.079
that's for sure. But just going back to what

01:55:41.079 --> 01:55:43.260
you said, I think the problem is we don't have

01:55:43.260 --> 01:55:45.220
a good degree. You know, the one the one people

01:55:45.220 --> 01:55:47.119
say is what public safety or whatever it is,

01:55:47.140 --> 01:55:50.369
but. you know when you think about a degree i

01:55:50.369 --> 01:55:52.470
think we should have a degree that has you know

01:55:52.470 --> 01:55:55.350
rope rescue and trench and you know all these

01:55:55.350 --> 01:55:57.390
things are applicable and you know pediatric

01:55:57.390 --> 01:56:00.350
airways and now you have an actionable degree

01:56:00.350 --> 01:56:02.770
and then if you're then going to go up to like

01:56:02.770 --> 01:56:05.510
the leadership side then why are we not using

01:56:05.510 --> 01:56:07.689
like you said emotional intelligence and all

01:56:07.689 --> 01:56:10.149
these these great leadership things and then

01:56:10.149 --> 01:56:12.010
there's a didactic portion where you're forced

01:56:12.010 --> 01:56:14.090
to actually use it and that i think then can

01:56:14.090 --> 01:56:17.050
train a leader and put you in environments where

01:56:17.630 --> 01:56:20.409
it's okay to fail and you regroup and you redo

01:56:20.409 --> 01:56:23.810
it until you start getting it right but when

01:56:23.810 --> 01:56:26.470
you look at the academic level in our or track

01:56:26.470 --> 01:56:29.750
in our profession it doesn't pertain to what

01:56:29.750 --> 01:56:33.029
we do it's so academic and theoretical and therefore

01:56:33.029 --> 01:56:35.890
these people i mean because we see it how many

01:56:35.890 --> 01:56:38.789
people do we know that race up the promotional

01:56:38.789 --> 01:56:40.890
ladder that couldn't lead their way out of a

01:56:40.890 --> 01:56:43.310
wet paper bag so you know the proof is in the

01:56:43.310 --> 01:56:48.520
pudding And a lot of it is having difficult conversations.

01:56:49.479 --> 01:56:53.380
So what we do is we classroom, we talk about

01:56:53.380 --> 01:56:55.399
it. Here are the structures and algorithm on

01:56:55.399 --> 01:56:58.180
how to have this. And then we break out and we

01:56:58.180 --> 01:57:00.119
take four chairs and we put them like you're

01:57:00.119 --> 01:57:03.960
in an engine company. And okay, you're the student

01:57:03.960 --> 01:57:07.060
here. You're in the company officer seat and

01:57:07.060 --> 01:57:10.340
you got to tell me to slow down and stop. And

01:57:10.340 --> 01:57:12.840
here's a kid, he's 25 years old. He's never been

01:57:12.840 --> 01:57:14.340
in that seat before. He goes, well, how do I

01:57:14.340 --> 01:57:17.819
say that? Tell me to slow down. And okay, you

01:57:17.819 --> 01:57:19.899
got three seconds or I'm going to run the light

01:57:19.899 --> 01:57:22.840
and I'm going to hit something. One, two, three,

01:57:22.920 --> 01:57:28.560
and boom. Okay, let's try it again. Tell me to

01:57:28.560 --> 01:57:32.760
slow down and stop. One, stop, stop. It takes

01:57:32.760 --> 01:57:35.939
them 10 times before they go, stop, you know,

01:57:35.939 --> 01:57:39.880
and it's okay. So you got, I think they're a

01:57:39.880 --> 01:57:42.340
way to develop those skills on being decisive

01:57:42.340 --> 01:57:46.649
and, you know. addressing things. The other one

01:57:46.649 --> 01:57:48.810
is, okay, so we got done with this one. And then

01:57:48.810 --> 01:57:50.329
when we get back to the station, you have to

01:57:50.329 --> 01:57:52.590
talk to me, right? Hey, I don't like telling

01:57:52.590 --> 01:57:54.449
people to slow down. Our life's in your hands.

01:57:54.529 --> 01:57:56.729
Please don't make me do it again. But you got

01:57:56.729 --> 01:57:58.329
to have this little conversation before you go

01:57:58.329 --> 01:58:00.909
back to the station. They're stuttering and they're

01:58:00.909 --> 01:58:02.770
like shaking. I've never had a conversation like

01:58:02.770 --> 01:58:05.369
this before. Well, when's the worst time to have

01:58:05.369 --> 01:58:09.789
it? In real life, let's practice these so that

01:58:09.789 --> 01:58:13.399
you get a routine. Oh, and then we build up to

01:58:13.399 --> 01:58:14.979
where, you know, we're a firefighter, right?

01:58:15.039 --> 01:58:17.899
We start acting like assholes, okay? So what

01:58:17.899 --> 01:58:21.819
asshole move am I making? Am I denial? Am I deflecting?

01:58:21.819 --> 01:58:24.640
Am I discrediting you? So that they get a routine.

01:58:24.720 --> 01:58:26.779
Oh, I know what you're saying. Like, how do I

01:58:26.779 --> 01:58:29.479
respond to that? But we're actually trying to

01:58:29.479 --> 01:58:31.699
train them on how to do it before they have to

01:58:31.699 --> 01:58:34.579
do it for the first time. I love that. I think

01:58:34.579 --> 01:58:36.420
another one, when I think back, and it's funny

01:58:36.420 --> 01:58:38.180
because in the academy, you always get those

01:58:38.180 --> 01:58:41.000
guys screaming at you and the baby's dying and

01:58:41.000 --> 01:58:42.460
that stuff. And then you work with them in real

01:58:42.460 --> 01:58:44.039
life. A few years later, you're like, oh, you're

01:58:44.039 --> 01:58:46.880
actually not a very good firefighter. But the

01:58:46.880 --> 01:58:48.960
ones that are screaming, you know, and I think,

01:58:48.960 --> 01:58:51.079
but in parenting terms, you know, if you are

01:58:51.079 --> 01:58:54.060
always screaming at your child, when they do

01:58:54.060 --> 01:58:57.039
something that actually requires them to really

01:58:57.039 --> 01:59:00.189
listen. You have no other mode. You have no other

01:59:00.189 --> 01:59:02.590
gear. But if you're normally calm, you normally

01:59:02.590 --> 01:59:04.869
talk your way through these scenarios, whether

01:59:04.869 --> 01:59:07.670
you're a parent or in a fire station, then you

01:59:07.670 --> 01:59:10.130
raise your voice and you say, stop, that engineer

01:59:10.130 --> 01:59:12.050
is going to slam on the brakes because you don't

01:59:12.050 --> 01:59:14.010
normally raise your voice. So I think, you know,

01:59:14.010 --> 01:59:15.850
that that's something that I've seen as, you

01:59:15.850 --> 01:59:19.130
know, as the firefighter still is the best leaders

01:59:19.130 --> 01:59:20.949
were always calm. And when they raise their voice,

01:59:21.090 --> 01:59:22.909
they were like, you know, you were like, oh,

01:59:22.930 --> 01:59:25.770
shit, we're really screwed up if he's raising

01:59:25.770 --> 01:59:31.060
his voice. The first shift, I had a fire station.

01:59:33.220 --> 01:59:36.140
My company officer grabs me, takes me into my

01:59:36.140 --> 01:59:39.479
rack that I had made, and he tells me that my

01:59:39.479 --> 01:59:44.140
bed's made wrong. We go out on a car accident

01:59:44.140 --> 01:59:46.640
intersection where this car got clipped, and

01:59:46.640 --> 01:59:48.699
it, like, spun around three times, and there's

01:59:48.699 --> 01:59:52.939
two adults that have been ejected. He loses his

01:59:52.939 --> 01:59:56.970
mind. And, okay, you care more about my bed being

01:59:56.970 --> 02:00:00.869
made and how well it is, and you're totally incompetent

02:00:00.869 --> 02:00:03.069
when there's any kind of stress or pressure out

02:00:03.069 --> 02:00:06.609
here. It's kind of like you lose a lot of respect

02:00:06.609 --> 02:00:10.350
for people like that. You're really worried about

02:00:10.350 --> 02:00:13.510
the wrong thing here, pal. Yeah, exactly. Maybe

02:00:13.510 --> 02:00:15.189
that's just that they're so incompetent that

02:00:15.189 --> 02:00:18.189
they worry about the bed or your uniform or the

02:00:18.189 --> 02:00:20.609
station being clean because they can't manage

02:00:20.609 --> 02:00:24.420
anything past that. Yeah, well, humility, I think,

02:00:24.420 --> 02:00:27.399
is an area where I see, you know, the best leaders.

02:00:27.500 --> 02:00:30.079
I mean, I had Al Benjamin on the show, who's

02:00:30.079 --> 02:00:33.500
a legend in Rescue One, and he was always a firefighter,

02:00:33.500 --> 02:00:36.939
senior firefighter. And you talk to Al now, another

02:00:36.939 --> 02:00:39.600
example is Peter Park, who's a renowned strength

02:00:39.600 --> 02:00:41.680
and conditioning coach. And Peter kept asking

02:00:41.680 --> 02:00:43.979
me, James, how would you train this person? And

02:00:43.979 --> 02:00:46.619
I am not. I'm a weekend warrior strength coach

02:00:46.619 --> 02:00:49.659
at best. But that's what you see with these good

02:00:49.659 --> 02:00:52.239
leaders. They never stop learning. They're humble.

02:00:52.319 --> 02:00:53.800
Yeah, if you step out of line, they'll put you

02:00:53.800 --> 02:00:56.420
in the place. But they're not shaming the rookie.

02:00:56.699 --> 02:00:58.659
They're bringing them over and saying, all right,

02:00:58.659 --> 02:01:00.880
let me show you something. That is a good leader.

02:01:02.420 --> 02:01:05.300
Well, and you just said something. I have never

02:01:05.300 --> 02:01:09.520
met a lifelong learner that I didn't like. There's

02:01:09.520 --> 02:01:13.159
just something about that person that when they're

02:01:13.159 --> 02:01:15.119
always reading or trying to learn, there's just

02:01:15.119 --> 02:01:19.289
something that attracts me to that type of. individual

02:01:19.289 --> 02:01:23.649
so absolutely all right well speaking of learning

02:01:23.649 --> 02:01:26.250
we talked about books what about documentaries

02:01:26.250 --> 02:01:38.789
or films that you love a documentary that my

02:01:38.789 --> 02:01:41.250
wife and I just watched it again it's about and

02:01:41.250 --> 02:01:43.310
I forget what they call it but they made a movie

02:01:43.310 --> 02:01:46.449
out of it but Disney did a documentary and I

02:01:46.449 --> 02:01:49.329
think The two of them kind of were side by side.

02:01:49.649 --> 02:01:52.829
It's when they went to Thailand and they rescued

02:01:52.829 --> 02:01:56.189
the soccer team and the kids out of the caves.

02:01:56.470 --> 02:01:58.869
And it was a documentary where they actually

02:01:58.869 --> 02:02:01.829
had the divers that went in there and rescued

02:02:01.829 --> 02:02:06.510
them. And the lead guy was a retired London firefighter

02:02:06.510 --> 02:02:11.989
that was a cave diver on his days off. And I

02:02:11.989 --> 02:02:14.869
don't know, just watching that process, it was

02:02:14.869 --> 02:02:17.180
it was just. and totally different than what

02:02:17.180 --> 02:02:20.739
we do but i mean it was still the service part

02:02:20.739 --> 02:02:23.579
of it i thought that that was a phenomenal documentary

02:02:23.579 --> 02:02:26.079
and then you know hey i know it's been out for

02:02:26.079 --> 02:02:27.760
a while but i just watched it i'm not a very

02:02:27.760 --> 02:02:33.140
big tv person uh maverick top gun part two i

02:02:33.140 --> 02:02:36.920
thought that was cool except my daughter is a

02:02:37.420 --> 02:02:39.920
Is it aerospace engineer? And she says, you can't

02:02:39.920 --> 02:02:42.960
eject when you're going Mach 10. Your head is

02:02:42.960 --> 02:02:47.399
just going to explode. So. Yeah, we just lost

02:02:47.399 --> 02:02:49.239
Val Kilmer, too. It's a shame because he looked

02:02:49.239 --> 02:02:52.479
very ill in that film. But yeah, he just passed

02:02:52.479 --> 02:02:55.720
away. I'm glad he made it in it, though. Yeah,

02:02:55.800 --> 02:02:58.300
absolutely. All right. Well, speaking of amazing

02:02:58.300 --> 02:03:00.640
people, is there a person that you'd recommend

02:03:00.640 --> 02:03:03.819
to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to

02:03:03.819 --> 02:03:05.800
the first responders, military and associated

02:03:05.800 --> 02:03:08.760
professions of the world? God, you know, you

02:03:08.760 --> 02:03:12.859
already had him, Tim Dietz. To me, that guy is

02:03:12.859 --> 02:03:17.720
just a rock star, what he brings to the fire

02:03:17.720 --> 02:03:20.239
service and the simple tools that he can give

02:03:20.239 --> 02:03:22.039
a company officer to do their job better without

02:03:22.039 --> 02:03:24.239
having to go to four years of counseling school.

02:03:25.840 --> 02:03:30.119
But other than that, you know, another superstar

02:03:30.119 --> 02:03:33.479
that I've been dealing with is the fire chief

02:03:33.479 --> 02:03:39.300
out of Oklahoma City, Richard Kelly. And he was

02:03:39.300 --> 02:03:41.319
like a two -year firefighter when the Oklahoma

02:03:41.319 --> 02:03:46.739
bombing happened. And he was personally responsible

02:03:46.739 --> 02:03:52.380
for rescuing or assisting, rescuing like 16 of

02:03:52.380 --> 02:03:54.680
the people that they pulled out that were alive.

02:03:54.840 --> 02:03:57.199
And then he did several body recoveries. But

02:03:57.199 --> 02:04:01.680
he is a really interesting. and he's moved himself

02:04:01.680 --> 02:04:04.319
in the fire chief. So based on the Oklahoma thing,

02:04:04.539 --> 02:04:06.060
you know, we've been talking about what can you

02:04:06.060 --> 02:04:10.140
do to improve. That event started them out doing

02:04:10.140 --> 02:04:12.600
a lot of stuff a lot earlier than our service

02:04:12.600 --> 02:04:16.220
is doing today. So having him involved in the

02:04:16.220 --> 02:04:21.340
managing a fire company process, he was way ahead

02:04:21.340 --> 02:04:25.220
of the ballgame. Even Tim's curve, you know,

02:04:25.239 --> 02:04:28.500
where he came into the thing. Oklahoma City was

02:04:28.500 --> 02:04:31.100
doing a lot more. So he'd be a great guest. Yeah,

02:04:31.140 --> 02:04:32.399
I would love to get him on if you're able to

02:04:32.399 --> 02:04:34.720
help me connect. That'd be incredible. Yeah,

02:04:34.739 --> 02:04:37.939
I'll send him a text as soon as we're done. Beautiful.

02:04:38.159 --> 02:04:40.619
Yeah, I had Chris Fields on who was another firefighter.

02:04:40.619 --> 02:04:43.359
He was a lieutenant by that point, I think. But

02:04:43.359 --> 02:04:45.760
he was in that tragically iconic picture where

02:04:45.760 --> 02:04:48.920
he's holding the dead child and that. that haunted

02:04:48.920 --> 02:04:51.640
him for years he had his massive downward spiral

02:04:51.640 --> 02:04:54.979
and then again incredible incredible post -traumatic

02:04:54.979 --> 02:04:57.220
growth journey and even his marriage his wife

02:04:57.220 --> 02:04:59.939
was forgiving and he did a lot of you know bad

02:04:59.939 --> 02:05:03.699
stuff and they are you know still you know bound

02:05:03.699 --> 02:05:05.760
tightly now to this day they're they're a beautiful

02:05:05.760 --> 02:05:11.699
couple i've seen him and he's phenomenal you

02:05:11.699 --> 02:05:15.729
know another one is uh he became a doctor after

02:05:15.729 --> 02:05:19.550
the charleston nine uh oh david griffin david

02:05:19.550 --> 02:05:21.710
griffin yeah have you had him on the show yeah

02:05:21.710 --> 02:05:23.470
he's been on and actually we were just talking

02:05:23.470 --> 02:05:26.369
funnily enough going back to the 24 72 i did

02:05:26.369 --> 02:05:29.550
a zoom call with all their chiefs because they

02:05:29.550 --> 02:05:32.609
were looking at it and they didn't actually put

02:05:32.609 --> 02:05:34.210
it into place because they just had a contract

02:05:34.210 --> 02:05:37.350
very shortly after but hopefully the next time

02:05:37.350 --> 02:05:39.619
they all get around the table they're gonna they're

02:05:39.619 --> 02:05:42.000
gonna go to that but yeah i mean i've i've been

02:05:42.000 --> 02:05:44.600
to you know their memorial station next to the

02:05:44.600 --> 02:05:47.079
the site and everything and yeah i mean you talk

02:05:47.079 --> 02:05:50.739
about again humility like just starting from

02:05:50.739 --> 02:05:52.880
scratch as a fire department and rebuilding it

02:05:52.880 --> 02:05:55.180
i mean you know david and some of the other guys

02:05:55.180 --> 02:05:57.340
travis house i mean they've all got these powerful

02:05:57.340 --> 02:06:00.699
perspectives of you know that day and you know

02:06:00.699 --> 02:06:02.979
what they're doing now so yeah very powerful

02:06:02.979 --> 02:06:07.000
but he he wrote a book post -traumatic growth

02:06:07.000 --> 02:06:11.079
i mean so he'd be Right up until your topics.

02:06:11.659 --> 02:06:14.039
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What I'm actually doing

02:06:14.039 --> 02:06:16.079
now is people have had on the show before, like

02:06:16.079 --> 02:06:18.560
David, cause he's been on, um, trying to get

02:06:18.560 --> 02:06:21.260
people on together. So maybe down the road, get

02:06:21.260 --> 02:06:23.279
you and Tim together and we'll do another, another

02:06:23.279 --> 02:06:25.420
episode. Oh, wow. That's an interesting dynamic.

02:06:25.579 --> 02:06:27.079
Then they bounce off each other and I can just

02:06:27.079 --> 02:06:30.840
sit back. Yeah. I'll let Tim do most of the talking.

02:06:31.479 --> 02:06:33.640
You know, another one of my fire service heroes

02:06:33.640 --> 02:06:37.649
that I thought had. a huge impact still having

02:06:37.649 --> 02:06:41.829
it is dan madrakowski from uh underwriter laboratories

02:06:41.829 --> 02:06:46.369
fire research he is a phenomenal human being

02:06:46.369 --> 02:06:51.430
i don't know if that's lionel um crowther has

02:06:51.430 --> 02:06:53.649
told me about some people from ul and i think

02:06:53.649 --> 02:06:55.789
dan's name is one that came up recently as far

02:06:55.789 --> 02:06:59.229
as getting steve kerber as a director but dan

02:06:59.229 --> 02:07:03.130
is kind of the The brains, and I don't want to

02:07:03.130 --> 02:07:05.670
take away anything from it, but Dan trained Steve

02:07:05.670 --> 02:07:08.489
Kerber when he was working at the government

02:07:08.489 --> 02:07:14.069
agency NEST. So Dan came from NEST, and he trained

02:07:14.069 --> 02:07:17.750
all of these thermodynamic engineers, and then

02:07:17.750 --> 02:07:22.069
they went off to UL and other places, ATF, another

02:07:22.069 --> 02:07:25.670
group that he's trained and worked with. So he

02:07:25.670 --> 02:07:30.470
is really kind of a giant among that whole group.

02:07:30.909 --> 02:07:33.289
And he is just the nicest human being on the

02:07:33.289 --> 02:07:38.149
planet. I think he's married. He's got like six

02:07:38.149 --> 02:07:41.229
daughters. So he's got one of those, you know,

02:07:41.229 --> 02:07:45.630
vans that have like, like the softball team shows

02:07:45.630 --> 02:07:48.029
up at the grocery store. Yeah. My brother's got

02:07:48.029 --> 02:07:50.210
one of them because he had a little boy and they

02:07:50.210 --> 02:07:52.010
wanted one more child and they had triplets.

02:07:52.430 --> 02:07:58.510
So they've got four kids now. Surprise, honey.

02:07:58.729 --> 02:08:03.189
Exactly. All right. Well, the very last question

02:08:03.189 --> 02:08:04.829
before we make sure everyone knows where to find

02:08:04.829 --> 02:08:12.229
you. What do you do to decompress? Well, I got

02:08:12.229 --> 02:08:15.609
out a blue card. Another thing I started doing

02:08:15.609 --> 02:08:17.609
five years ago, I started playing the drums.

02:08:19.090 --> 02:08:22.010
And, you know, I'm semi -retired. So that really

02:08:22.010 --> 02:08:27.390
has helped me keep busy, decompress. Another

02:08:27.390 --> 02:08:29.649
thing, it's math and a bunch of other stuff,

02:08:29.710 --> 02:08:33.430
so it helps my brain not think about anything

02:08:33.430 --> 02:08:35.550
else. I don't know if you play an instrument

02:08:35.550 --> 02:08:38.430
or anything, but it's hard to think about human

02:08:38.430 --> 02:08:40.670
tragedy when you're counting one, two, three,

02:08:40.689 --> 02:08:44.010
four over and over again. Yeah. But that's, I

02:08:44.010 --> 02:08:46.189
love hanging out with my family. My favorite

02:08:46.189 --> 02:08:48.869
time on the planet is, I have two daughters,

02:08:49.029 --> 02:08:51.489
is when my wife and two daughters are sitting

02:08:51.489 --> 02:08:53.890
at the same dinner table, the lunch table, whatever

02:08:53.890 --> 02:08:59.869
it is, talking, hanging out. So walking the dogs.

02:09:00.930 --> 02:09:03.550
I'm pretty boring, James. Pretty boring guy.

02:09:04.489 --> 02:09:07.810
I don't jump off a cliff with some weird suit

02:09:07.810 --> 02:09:13.609
on or scuba dive. Speaking of that, just before

02:09:13.609 --> 02:09:17.239
we do, the transition. is a place that can be

02:09:17.239 --> 02:09:19.979
very jarring for you know our men and women because

02:09:19.979 --> 02:09:23.060
you have had this amazing career you know obviously

02:09:23.060 --> 02:09:25.199
you've accumulated stuff but also there's that

02:09:25.199 --> 02:09:27.159
that tribe that you've been a part of there's

02:09:27.159 --> 02:09:30.659
a sense of purpose it's very hard not to identify

02:09:30.659 --> 02:09:33.579
as a firefighter specifically as a profession

02:09:33.579 --> 02:09:36.180
and then you know one day you're not and the

02:09:36.180 --> 02:09:38.220
doors have closed behind you and your id doesn't

02:09:38.220 --> 02:09:40.039
work anymore and you know there's another warm

02:09:40.039 --> 02:09:42.739
body in the seat that you were in before What

02:09:42.739 --> 02:09:45.020
was your personal experience transitioning out

02:09:45.020 --> 02:09:52.140
initially? I said to myself, why didn't you retire

02:09:52.140 --> 02:09:56.479
earlier? And I know I stay connected in the fire

02:09:56.479 --> 02:09:59.260
service, developing a program and hanging out

02:09:59.260 --> 02:10:02.460
with firefighters and still training them. But

02:10:02.460 --> 02:10:06.020
to me, man, it was... I didn't know it could

02:10:06.020 --> 02:10:09.520
be this good. I've heard stories about what you

02:10:09.520 --> 02:10:11.800
referenced, you know, my whole identity is wrapped

02:10:11.800 --> 02:10:14.020
up in this. And now that I'm gone, I've kind

02:10:14.020 --> 02:10:18.100
of lost contact. That wasn't my case. I loved

02:10:18.100 --> 02:10:22.819
it. And I talked to a guy that you're familiar

02:10:22.819 --> 02:10:25.810
with the drop program. Yes. Well, they extended

02:10:25.810 --> 02:10:29.189
the drop and he did 35 years and then he dropped

02:10:29.189 --> 02:10:31.689
for five and then they extended it for two and

02:10:31.689 --> 02:10:34.609
a half. And then he just retired. And I said,

02:10:34.649 --> 02:10:36.489
how's it going? He says, man, I'm so stupid.

02:10:36.550 --> 02:10:40.489
He said, this is so good that I should have done

02:10:40.489 --> 02:10:43.729
it like 20 years ago. And I go, exactly. Now

02:10:43.729 --> 02:10:47.649
you're going to enjoy five years and die. But

02:10:47.649 --> 02:10:51.270
to me, retirement has been the best thing in

02:10:51.270 --> 02:10:55.640
the world. And my kids were still young. I retired

02:10:55.640 --> 02:10:59.279
young. So they were still in grade school, high

02:10:59.279 --> 02:11:02.000
school. So I got to spend a lot more time with

02:11:02.000 --> 02:11:04.060
them earlier on than I would have if I was still

02:11:04.060 --> 02:11:06.779
in the fire service. So I love it. How about

02:11:06.779 --> 02:11:10.180
you? I mean, you're out of it, is it? Yeah, my

02:11:10.180 --> 02:11:12.960
path is a little different. It wasn't a retirement

02:11:12.960 --> 02:11:15.359
retirement. It was trying to fix the last place

02:11:15.359 --> 02:11:17.579
and realizing that I wasn't going to do it from

02:11:17.579 --> 02:11:20.680
within. and taking a leap of faith and doing

02:11:20.680 --> 02:11:23.239
this full time. So I didn't anticipate being

02:11:23.239 --> 02:11:26.680
out so soon. But just like you said, you know,

02:11:26.680 --> 02:11:28.720
you have in that particular case, a very toxic

02:11:28.720 --> 02:11:31.880
environment. And then you just pull the plug.

02:11:31.960 --> 02:11:34.380
You say, screw it, I'm doing it. And in my case,

02:11:34.439 --> 02:11:36.479
I cashed out. I took the lump sum and gave myself

02:11:36.479 --> 02:11:38.739
a salary for a year and a half so I could get

02:11:38.739 --> 02:11:41.279
this up and running and really, you know, hopefully

02:11:41.279 --> 02:11:44.060
get a sponsorship so I could pay the bills, which

02:11:44.060 --> 02:11:46.939
did happen at the right time. But it was, it

02:11:46.939 --> 02:11:50.619
was like, wow. Just lying in my bed, knowing

02:11:50.619 --> 02:11:54.079
that there were no tones was amazing. Being there

02:11:54.079 --> 02:11:56.699
every morning, making my son's lunch. I used

02:11:56.699 --> 02:12:00.140
to walk him to the bus and then it became, you

02:12:00.140 --> 02:12:01.939
know, being in the passenger seat where he drove

02:12:01.939 --> 02:12:03.859
himself to high school. And then it's, he's driving

02:12:03.859 --> 02:12:06.319
off to high school, all those, you know, I didn't

02:12:06.319 --> 02:12:09.159
miss a morning with him, you know? So, you know,

02:12:09.159 --> 02:12:12.390
you hear people, I've said this like. So many

02:12:12.390 --> 02:12:14.350
departments, you know, they fight tooth and nail.

02:12:14.470 --> 02:12:16.689
They'll go to arbitration, all kinds of stuff.

02:12:16.750 --> 02:12:19.409
The contract negotiations will last three years

02:12:19.409 --> 02:12:21.630
and they're fighting for a 50 cents or a dollar

02:12:21.630 --> 02:12:24.789
pay raise. And I always tell them the only currency

02:12:24.789 --> 02:12:27.329
that's really valuable is time with your family.

02:12:27.710 --> 02:12:29.689
So whether you're fighting for a better work

02:12:29.689 --> 02:12:32.109
week or whether you're considering retiring early,

02:12:32.289 --> 02:12:35.170
like this is like you said, you know, you don't

02:12:35.170 --> 02:12:36.569
start. And this is the thing I think people forget.

02:12:37.109 --> 02:12:39.090
That doesn't mean you're not serving anymore.

02:12:39.550 --> 02:12:41.829
I'm serving doing this. I'm serving writing books.

02:12:42.029 --> 02:12:43.630
You're serving with the training you're doing,

02:12:43.750 --> 02:12:47.130
empowering the next generation. So you can serve

02:12:47.130 --> 02:12:51.069
in a thousand different ways. But doing what

02:12:51.069 --> 02:12:53.829
we did, it is a young man's game or young woman's

02:12:53.829 --> 02:12:56.789
game. And there will be someone filling that

02:12:56.789 --> 02:12:59.449
seat the day you leave. Don't fool yourself.

02:12:59.770 --> 02:13:02.989
So pick a point where you're like, all right,

02:13:03.050 --> 02:13:05.949
that's enough. And especially if you've got kids,

02:13:06.050 --> 02:13:09.750
don't miss their childhood. And you retire and

02:13:09.750 --> 02:13:11.750
they're already off to college because, you know,

02:13:11.750 --> 02:13:13.710
it's too late then. So, yeah, I agree with you

02:13:13.710 --> 02:13:16.109
100%. The guys and women that hang on for dear

02:13:16.109 --> 02:13:19.010
life chasing that dollar amount are usually the

02:13:19.010 --> 02:13:23.550
ones that we see die within five years. I think

02:13:23.550 --> 02:13:26.489
the average lifespan of a firefighter after they

02:13:26.489 --> 02:13:30.630
retire is 11 years. So I've already beat that.

02:13:30.789 --> 02:13:33.229
Yeah, I've heard only five or six by most of

02:13:33.229 --> 02:13:37.079
the people. I think the 11 years, we die 11 years

02:13:37.079 --> 02:13:40.159
younger than the average person. Oh, maybe. But

02:13:40.159 --> 02:13:42.239
if you think about that, the people standing

02:13:42.239 --> 02:13:45.140
on the diamond on day one are arguably a lot

02:13:45.140 --> 02:13:47.819
fitter and healthier and mentally resilient than

02:13:47.819 --> 02:13:50.680
the average person. So we should be living a

02:13:50.680 --> 02:13:53.140
lot longer than the average person. So, yeah,

02:13:53.180 --> 02:13:55.659
you are doing very well. You're smashing it.

02:13:57.619 --> 02:14:01.960
But you made the right choice. I was 44. I mean,

02:14:01.960 --> 02:14:06.210
that's young. Yep. Yeah. Absolutely. So it's

02:14:06.210 --> 02:14:09.670
been almost 20 years. Yeah, exactly. This is

02:14:09.670 --> 02:14:11.489
the thing. People have got to be like, be the

02:14:11.489 --> 02:14:13.710
person that the city hates because you're still

02:14:13.710 --> 02:14:15.689
alive. My granddad worked for an insurance company

02:14:15.689 --> 02:14:18.069
in England. And I remember when he told me he'd

02:14:18.069 --> 02:14:20.930
been retired longer than he'd worked. You know,

02:14:20.970 --> 02:14:25.890
that was a good day for him. I want to go beyond

02:14:25.890 --> 02:14:28.930
that, James. I want to, when I die, said this

02:14:28.930 --> 02:14:31.630
person had collected a pension from the fire

02:14:31.630 --> 02:14:35.199
department longer. than any other human being

02:14:35.199 --> 02:14:41.060
has ever like 50 years he was retired yeah well

02:14:41.060 --> 02:14:43.260
that's totally doable this is what i've said

02:14:43.260 --> 02:14:46.119
recently with people you know we our generation

02:14:46.119 --> 02:14:47.640
i'm a little bit younger than you but you know

02:14:47.640 --> 02:14:50.699
there's that element of you know you're 40 years

02:14:50.699 --> 02:14:52.979
old now so yeah of course i'm on blood pressure

02:14:52.979 --> 02:14:55.760
meds and i'm 40 and it's like we've got this

02:14:55.760 --> 02:14:59.420
skewed you know lens of what old is and you look

02:14:59.420 --> 02:15:01.520
around like how many people do you see all over

02:15:01.520 --> 02:15:04.579
the place are living late 90s early hundreds

02:15:04.579 --> 02:15:07.699
like loads of people so that's completely doable

02:15:07.699 --> 02:15:12.000
getting to you know 94 and then and then you

02:15:12.000 --> 02:15:19.800
know beyond well i'm do you ever like go to a

02:15:19.800 --> 02:15:22.840
firefighter thing you know being retired for

02:15:22.840 --> 02:15:25.500
like 15 years and now everyone's old all they

02:15:25.500 --> 02:15:27.300
come up and they go hey this is what's wrong

02:15:27.300 --> 02:15:29.579
with me this is what's wrong i'm i feel terrible

02:15:29.579 --> 02:15:31.840
for them But on the other side of it, I don't

02:15:31.840 --> 02:15:34.199
take any prescription meds for anything. My blood

02:15:34.199 --> 02:15:39.819
pressure is still low. I'm like, thank you, God.

02:15:40.180 --> 02:15:44.300
But they're falling to pieces. Yeah. Well, this

02:15:44.300 --> 02:15:47.920
is the thing that's crazy, too. I touched on

02:15:47.920 --> 02:15:51.819
this when I did that talk for the 2472. Fire

02:15:51.819 --> 02:15:54.539
service statistics. If I ask people, how many

02:15:54.539 --> 02:15:57.600
people have we lost to suicides this last year?

02:15:57.949 --> 02:16:00.670
Well, let me show you the national fallen firefighters

02:16:00.670 --> 02:16:03.710
says it's this amount, like 70 or whatever it

02:16:03.710 --> 02:16:07.010
was. So I know I can name 70 people that we probably

02:16:07.010 --> 02:16:08.829
lost in the state of Florida. That was the ones

02:16:08.829 --> 02:16:10.949
that we actually know about, not the ones that

02:16:10.949 --> 02:16:12.850
were hidden because of the stigma and the shame.

02:16:13.130 --> 02:16:16.489
So that's one state times that by 50. And then

02:16:16.489 --> 02:16:18.750
I always ask him, like, well, what population

02:16:18.750 --> 02:16:21.710
is not represented? The retirees. There's no

02:16:21.710 --> 02:16:26.159
VA for the fire service. What fraction of a percent

02:16:26.159 --> 02:16:28.859
of the line of duty ones compared to the ones

02:16:28.859 --> 02:16:31.819
that transitioned out, the get into their fifties

02:16:31.819 --> 02:16:35.120
and sixties and are alone in that apartment and

02:16:35.120 --> 02:16:37.920
they're not counted, you know? So this is what's

02:16:37.920 --> 02:16:40.639
so sad. This pray, if we knew those statistics,

02:16:40.819 --> 02:16:43.040
I think it would be terrifying and it would really

02:16:43.040 --> 02:16:46.459
jar everyone, but it's behind a curtain. But

02:16:46.459 --> 02:16:48.819
if you could see the impact on our retirees and

02:16:48.819 --> 02:16:50.780
how short they live and actually annotate it.

02:16:51.440 --> 02:16:54.120
And then that would be such a huge selling point

02:16:54.120 --> 02:16:57.020
then for we need to change it because, you know,

02:16:57.040 --> 02:16:59.399
like you said, our generation aren't living very

02:16:59.399 --> 02:17:01.959
long. This next generation hopefully will be

02:17:01.959 --> 02:17:04.459
like you where they'll be living 30, 40, 50 years

02:17:04.459 --> 02:17:10.059
after retirement and good for them. Yeah, the

02:17:10.059 --> 02:17:16.540
suicide rate is, Deets thinks it's about 50 -50

02:17:16.540 --> 02:17:21.159
active versus retirees. And I totally agree that

02:17:21.159 --> 02:17:23.180
they're not looking at the numbers or this was

02:17:23.180 --> 02:17:26.340
a suicide that they called something else. He

02:17:26.340 --> 02:17:28.620
ran into a fire chief where he goes, there are

02:17:28.620 --> 02:17:30.399
two of them in six months on their department.

02:17:31.579 --> 02:17:33.899
One was a fall injury and the other one was a

02:17:33.899 --> 02:17:37.120
hunting accident. And the fall injury was a guy

02:17:37.120 --> 02:17:40.100
that got on a ladder, hung himself and kicked

02:17:40.100 --> 02:17:44.200
the ladder off. And the hunting accident was

02:17:44.200 --> 02:17:46.180
he shot himself in the head with a deer rifle

02:17:46.180 --> 02:17:49.760
in his bedroom. So how do you, and it's just

02:17:49.760 --> 02:17:51.959
like that, it's like, it's a reflection on the

02:17:51.959 --> 02:17:54.059
whole organization where they try to go, oh,

02:17:54.120 --> 02:17:57.760
this was, or they ran, they were going 110 miles

02:17:57.760 --> 02:18:00.840
an hour when they mysteriously hit the underpass,

02:18:00.920 --> 02:18:03.540
you know, median, right? Single vehicle accident.

02:18:03.620 --> 02:18:08.799
How many of those were suicides? So we have no

02:18:08.799 --> 02:18:12.200
idea what the real number is on suicides. Yeah,

02:18:12.260 --> 02:18:15.409
absolutely. All right. Well, I want to be mindful

02:18:15.409 --> 02:18:17.750
of your time. For people listening, let's just

02:18:17.750 --> 02:18:19.909
reiterate where they can find Managing a Fire

02:18:19.909 --> 02:18:22.190
Company. Are there any other places that they

02:18:22.190 --> 02:18:26.149
can reach out to you personally? Managingafirecompany

02:18:26.149 --> 02:18:34.190
.com. It's got an info at Managing a Fire Company.

02:18:34.190 --> 02:18:35.850
It's an email. That's what I'm trying to get

02:18:35.850 --> 02:18:38.989
to. If you click on that, I'm CC'd on that along

02:18:38.989 --> 02:18:41.709
with my office manager. So it's probably the

02:18:41.709 --> 02:18:45.950
best way to get a hold of me. as through the

02:18:45.950 --> 02:18:48.690
website and then two if you go there it's really

02:18:48.690 --> 02:18:50.850
just one big page with a bunch of buttons you

02:18:50.850 --> 02:18:54.049
can click on and have pdfs to kind of explain

02:18:54.049 --> 02:18:57.110
the whole thing and again james i appreciate

02:18:57.110 --> 02:19:00.149
you let me come on your show and mentioning it

02:19:00.149 --> 02:19:02.129
yeah well thank you so much i mean it's been

02:19:02.129 --> 02:19:04.489
such an amazing conversation i've had a run of

02:19:04.489 --> 02:19:07.889
of conversations recently with firefighters of

02:19:07.889 --> 02:19:10.209
your generation chiefs and all different ranks

02:19:10.209 --> 02:19:14.200
and to have these voices talking about the things

02:19:14.200 --> 02:19:15.979
that need to change whether it's in the leadership

02:19:15.979 --> 02:19:18.500
and you know mentoring our officers or we're

02:19:18.500 --> 02:19:20.340
talking about work weeks and mental health and

02:19:20.340 --> 02:19:23.180
fitness standards it's a very powerful voice

02:19:23.180 --> 02:19:25.360
because we romanticize about your generation

02:19:25.360 --> 02:19:28.399
you know the old salts but when you're saying

02:19:28.399 --> 02:19:30.930
you know no we were wrong about not wearing our

02:19:30.930 --> 02:19:33.649
packs we were wrong about saying suck it up buttercup

02:19:33.649 --> 02:19:36.190
you know this is what we need to change i think

02:19:36.190 --> 02:19:38.569
it's a it's an imperative voice for the young

02:19:38.569 --> 02:19:41.229
fire service especially so i want to thank you

02:19:41.229 --> 02:19:43.350
so so much for being so generous with your time

02:19:43.350 --> 02:19:45.430
and coming on the behind the shield podcast today

02:19:45.430 --> 02:19:48.850
well thank you for having me and again it's been

02:19:48.850 --> 02:19:52.090
a pleasure talking to you and on our original

02:19:52.090 --> 02:19:54.559
conversation That was another long one that was

02:19:54.559 --> 02:19:57.639
very refreshed in talking to people with like

02:19:57.639 --> 02:19:59.739
minds in the fire service. So thanks for having

02:19:59.739 --> 02:19:59.940
me.