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over again. Welcome to episode 352 of Behind
the Shield podcast. As always, my name is James
Gearing, and this week it is my absolute honor
to welcome on the show, Will Chesney. Now, Will
was a member of SEAL Team 6, along with his canine,
Cairo, and they were part of the team that ultimately
killed Osama bin Laden, the man behind the terror
attacks. So, of course, we discussed that event,
but there are so many other layers to the story,
from Cairo's earlier deployments, where he was
almost killed, recovered, and then went back
to duty. about Will's TBI and PTSD and how ultimately
man and dog helped heal each other and so many
other takeaways from this conversation. Before
we get to that interview, like I say, every single
week, please just take a moment, go to whichever
app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,
leave feedback and leave a rating. And as I mentioned,
this is a free library for you, the audience.
So all I ask in return is that you share these
incredible men, women and even canine stories
so I can get them to every... single person on
planet earth that needs to hear them and as one
more side note i wanted to make sure that the
book i wrote one more light life death and humanity
through the eyes of the firefighter also came
out this month september which is so pertinent
to the fire service and all the associated professions
so that being said it is my huge honor to introduce
to you will chesney enjoy So, Will, I want to
start by saying, firstly, thank you to Ryan for
connecting us. And secondly, thank you to you
for coming on the podcast. Yeah, thanks for having
me on. I appreciate it. Shout out to Ryan. So
where roughly on planet Earth are we finding
you today? I am in Houston right now. We had
that storm come through. So just kind of hanging
out here and seeing if, yeah, hanging out in
Houston. Good. Any bad stories come out of that?
I know it was a pretty sizable hurricane. Yeah,
I lost my phone, so I've been kind of out of
the loop trying to deal with all that. But I
think I've been checking a little bit. I don't
know. I don't think it was too bad. Okay. I'm
sure there were some families that were affected,
though, but I'm kind of out of the loop. Yeah.
Okay. Well, then I'd like to start chronologically.
So tell me where you were born, and then tell
me about your family dynamic, what your parents
did, and how many siblings. I'm an only child.
I was born in Southeast Texas. Nothing too crazy,
just grew up in a trailer park in Southeast Texas.
Played football, of course, pretty much through
middle school, a little bit of high school. Parents
were pretty good to go. Grandparents were really
great. It was a pretty normal childhood, but
I left as soon as I graduated high school. Just
wanted to get out of the area and join the Navy
and see what else was out there. Were you a big
kid, small kid, average size? About average size.
Okay, so was football something... that you found
you were naturally adept to? Because I have seals
on here that were monsters like Jocko, and then
you have seals that were small like Ryan that
had to work hard to get to the strength and fitness
that they found in the seal teams. Yeah, I had
to work hard, but I guess that's what I noticed
when we had the athletes on the team. I remember
one time I was doing bleachers, and I was ahead
of the athletes, and the coach called them out.
I was like, well, I just got to work a little
bit harder. I guess the diet, looking back now,
diet would be a huge part. I wish my diet would
have been better, but it is what it is. What
did that look like? Tell me some of the foods.
Southeast Texas, a lot of fried food. It's not
the healthiest. We didn't have a lot of money
growing up, so we got by on what we got by with.
It might not have been the best. But looking
back on it now, I know diet's a huge part of
all that stuff. But I just remember having to
try a little bit harder than everybody else.
Yeah. So what about dogs? I mean, when you were
a child, did you have dogs in the household?
Yeah, we had a few small dogs, a few larger dogs
growing up, some pit bulls, rottweilers, and
stuff like that. But nothing that we really trained
too crazy with. They were just household dogs.
Brilliant. Plenty of dogs growing up, yeah. Okay,
so with a lot of people that find themselves
in either first responder professions or military,
especially people that have struggled later in
their career, a lot of times when you trace it
back, there's also some sort of element of trauma
in their youth. Is there anything in your childhood
that you now, looking back, attribute to maybe
one of those layers of trauma that you took through
your career? Pretty normal childhood, nothing
too traumatic. I had a pretty good childhood
growing up. Good, good to hear. Right, well then
what about aspirations? You said you joined the
Navy. When you were going through high school,
was that always your goal or was it 9 -11 that
determined you? Yeah, I wanted to serve my country.
Definitely 9 -11 had a huge part of it. I just
wanted to serve. I grew up a little bit poorer.
It wasn't nothing too crazy. We weren't super
poor, but there wasn't much around this area.
I was a pretty smart kid, but I wasn't a great
student. So I was pretty lazy. I can be pretty
lazy sometimes. But I wanted to serve my country,
like I said. And then being a SEAL, you get to
do all that cool stuff, get to test myself, push
it. And it was really interesting. Didn't want
to go to school. It was all more hands -on stuff.
Obviously, you get to shoot guns and blow stuff
up. So there was a lot of drugs kind of where
I grew up. I'm glad I got out of the area instead
of sticking around for a little bit. There's
no telling what might have happened. Instead,
I joined the Navy and served my country. I got
to test myself. I actually made it through BUDS
training, so that was pretty cool. It was quite
the venture. It was what I wanted to do. It was
one of those things I look back on that I thank
God for. I found something that I didn't have
to get paid for, something that I probably would
have died for. something i knew what i wanted
and nothing would stop me and if i happen to
not make it along the way then it is what it
is at least i was having fun trying to get there
well you used the word fun and i heard you mention
that in the book so i love listening to the mindset
i mean stew smith i think you did an interview
with him not too long ago he was on here and
i remember him saying people always ask what
should a seal look like and he says it's not
about what they look like it's about you know
what's between their ears so what was your mindset
that allowed you to to get through not only get
through but not even be rolled back when obviously
the attrition rate was so high with the the men
each side of you like i said just have fun i've
made a lot of uh i joined the navy just to be
a seal and go test myself and all that stuff
but along the way i made some of the best friends
that i could have ever asked for we all we did
was uh you know it sucks getting through buds
six seven months of some parts are fun but most
parts just it's a lot of pain so in order to
get through all that stuff you just have fun
with your friends when you can and it's a lot
of jokes and having i don't know man you get
through the hard evolutions and then when you
have time off just take it easy and joke around
Now, when you were going through BUDS, because
I heard again in the book, your kind of burning
ambition to even level up after becoming a SEAL.
At what point in your training did you start
thinking about DevGuru, the elite of the SEALs?
Oh, I didn't hear about it until I was in my
first platoon. And then I heard a couple of guys
talking about it. It sounded pretty interesting.
That's an understatement. Yeah, definitely an
understatement. When I was going through buds,
my main focus was making it through buds. If
people want to aspire to that level, then I would
focus on making it through buds first. But it's
a good goal. Yeah, sure, shoot for the stars.
Absolutely. Where did you find yourself as far
as deployment the first time as a SEAL in? First
time as a SEAL was doing PSD in Iraq. I got to
do a couple of ops, but they were pretty uneventful.
member of the military, the men and women are
actually on the ground. When you were down there,
were there any memorable events that happened
where you saw the horrors that were going on
that then kind of reinforced, regardless of the
politics, that you were there to do some good
in the world? Yeah, definitely. No matter what
the politics are, there's good and there's evil
out there. It's a fact. I mean, people definitely
know that there's good. I'm sure everybody can
at least agree with that. And if people haven't
seen evil, well, it's definitely out there. You
can't have the good without the bad. And while
we were there, yeah, sure. Yeah. Are there any
examples that you can think of? I mean, if they're
not, it's fine. But I know some people, there's
like a certain event that was the first time
they saw, you know, the horrors that then, you
know, stuck with them ever since. I mean, we
relied on our intel people. to give us good intelligence.
And we usually got that. And you could just see
it when we got there. They were always willing
to fight. Or if they weren't, you could just
tell. You could just tell them the good from
the bad. Yeah, there's a lot of events. That
was what our job was. Nothing in specific that
stood out. We were there to do a job. And that
job was to get rid of bad people. Yeah, so then
the other question I always align that with is
it's intriguing hearing how these men and women
view these families in Afghanistan and Iraq and
wherever they are and are kind of struck by the
normalcy of everyone around the war. So not the
actual fighters, but the people living in these
cities. Was that something that struck you too,
seeing fathers and husbands and wives and kids
playing and the same kind of family dynamic that
you'd see in the US or the UK? No, of course
not. We're all human beings. I mean, we got to
work with some of the local nationals. Those
guys were great. Some of those guys weren't great.
Some of those guys, when I did a couple of sniper
missions early in my career in Iraq, I mean,
I got along with those guys really well. And
then there were some people that we worked with,
the local nationals, that were just not. They
were bad people trying to embed with us. But
no, to see regular families, of course not. We
would, you know, a lot of guys would give chemlights
to the kids. All that stuff. Sometimes they would
accept them and sometimes they would hate us
and they wouldn't accept them. But now it's just
normal families. Sometimes we would show up to
the wrong house and it was just a normal family.
We would apologize and, you know, pay them for
any damages. Move on. It happens. But we also
saw the bad as well. And you can definitely tell
there's a difference between people, a normal
family coming out and looking and seeing what's
going on and not knowing. I've seen that plenty
of times, especially being a sniper on a rooftop.
for a little bit my career and then you can tell
when the bad guys are doing shady stuff sneaking
around rooftops and you know doing whatever they
do you can tell the difference for sure yeah
no i just think it's an important thing because
again at home a lot of us are told oh you know
iraq or afghanistan those are quote unquote the
bad guys meaning the entire country which is
you know a very blanket statement so um well
you mentioned sniper So tell me about that because
you talk about one specific event as a sniper
that was very powerful. So what made you want
to go the sniper route once you got in the teams?
Yeah, once you make it through BUDS and you get
to the teams and you're still always working,
you still need to make yourself valuable. It's
just not like, hey, good job, you made it through
BUDS, now you're here and everything's done.
You always have to keep improving yourself. I
guess when you get there, there's different jobs,
whether it's sniping, breaching, diving, jumping.
You just kind of explore all those options. You
have to be proficient at all of them, but while
you're being proficient at them. I just loved
sniping. I was a pretty decent shot, and it's
just something that I was passionate about. I
applied for sniper school over and over again.
They set me up for breacher school, and nothing
wrong with breacher. I wanted to go to that school.
I wanted to sign for first, so I had to be pretty
persistent. They got mad at me for a little bit.
They did, but I was just persistent. They finally
told me to stop asking, but I asked again, and
it worked out well. I got signed for school,
so it was all good. I can totally relate. Sometimes
you just have to be persistent. Try not to piss
people off. Exactly. It's a fine line to navigate,
though. Yeah, it's a fine line. They were getting
a little mad. I'm like, come on, man. Were you
able to tell the story of that first shot that
you took when the fighter on the rooftop? Yeah.
A brief overview would be it was my second deployment,
I think. We were in Iraq. Working with the local
nationals, I was a sniper on a roof. One of the
local nationals called me over and he said he
saw some sketchy movement on the other rooftop
that our guys were entering on. That was the
primary building. And one of the SOPs that they
had been doing was throwing grenades off the
rooftops into the alleyways. And just the guy
was looking, he was obviously sketchy. I was
pretty, still pretty, I was a pretty new guy
still. So both the ROEs were the ROEs. And I
actually had a local national up there with me
to confirm. But the guy was just jumping around
the roof and just being shady. And I didn't want
to throw in a grenade over and ended up engaging
that guy. And it was the guy that we were going
after that night. He had actually killed a couple
of Americans previously, and they'd been looking
for him for a while, so it ended up being a pretty
good night. Now, how hard is that? And this seems
like a very, very stupid question I'm about to
ask you, but take World War II, for example.
You had the uniforms. You had two very obvious
sides, unless they were wearing each other's
uniform. Now, here you have, as you just mentioned,
civilians and fighters. wearing exactly the same
clothes so how hard was it as a sniper to differentiate
and the pressure of taking a shot or not taking
a shot like i said i was still pretty early in
my career on there so it was uh it was good to
have the local national there with me to back
me up and also like if i didn't take that shot
and the guy had thrown a grenade over and killed
some of my friends I don't know if I'd be able
to live with myself on that one. But these days,
after being around and being experienced for
a while, it would have been no question about
it. The guy was obviously not listening. He wasn't
complying. He was being sketchy. And there was
no doubt about it. But early on in my career,
you just want to make sure you're doing the right
thing. But it ended up working out well. Absolutely.
And for everyone listening, by the way, I highly
recommend the book. I'm not going to pull out
too many stories from there because it's a great
read. So what about being exposed to working
dogs? When was your first time alongside a canine?
First time I saw a canine was that same, I was
at SEAL Team 4. They put on a dog demonstration
on one of our training trips. And it was really
cool. It was just a guy. I think they put one
of our assaulters in a bite suit and had him
run down the field. And the dog, you know, just
the handler let the dog go, chased him down,
tackled him. We all laughed. It was just a pretty
basic but cool dog demonstration. That was my
first exposure to the dogs, but I didn't really
see anything until my first deployment with my
squadron. And then I saw how valuable the dogs
were. There's a saying in the book. It says,
raise your hand. I remember being in the team
room once and somebody saying, raise your hand.
If a dog has ever saved your life. And pretty
much everybody's hand in the team room went up
with a story to tell. If not a couple of stories
to tell about a dog saving their life. And on
my first deployment with my squadron, I just
saw it. It was great. I love dogs. I had dogs
growing up. Like I said earlier, just because
you become a SEAL doesn't mean you're done. I
had to find another job that I wanted to do.
And I love dogs. I saw the value in the dog.
If I had the chance to save one of my teammates'
life, that would be, you know, it's a lot of
extra work sometimes taking care of a dog. It's
like babysitting a kid. And sometimes you're
not used. Sometimes you are used. But I just,
when the dogs are used, they are very valuable
and they can save lives. And I was willing to
put in all that extra work to have the opportunity.
Plus, dogs are used quite a bit. And if I can
make myself more valuable. by being experienced
with the dog, then I might be called to go on
another mission. No, it does completely. Absolutely.
So, well, you talked about being a squeaky wheel
when it came to sniper school. So tell me about
your journey into DevGuru. Just the tenacity
of you getting yourself there and the timeline.
It was basically like going through buds all
over again, except it's all performance driven.
Everybody knows you're not going to quit. I mean,
it's a bunch of seals already, so they know they're
pretty tough. It's a tough selection process.
It's very hard, but it's basically going through
buds all over again, but performance -driven.
And what was driving you to be in that team specifically?
Was it just trying to punch through the ceiling
of as much training as you could get? Yeah, I
had nothing else going on. It seemed like a pretty
cool job. I wanted to see if they would shit
can me. Somehow I squeaked through. Brilliant.
Well, tell me about then the journey to actually
becoming a handler yourself and if there were
any events prior to that that really made you
decide to take that route. Yeah, when I was overseas
and I saw it, I brought it up. I saw the value
of the dogs and just the job and I brought it
up. I was told I'd be a handler when I got back.
There was a dog that we had on my first deployment.
His name was Falco. I was supposed to get him
when we returned from that deployment. He was
a great dog. He had a couple of issues in the
beginning, but he ended up being a very, very
good dog. One night, we were going after a couple
of bad guys right before returning home from
that first deployment. Two bad guys were set
up in an ambush. Falco ended up going in and
engaging him. Unfortunately, Falco was shot through
his chest a couple of times and he died. But,
you know, he laid down his life, saving probably
a couple of guys that night, at least from getting
shot if not killed. So I didn't get Falco when
we returned home, unfortunately. But when we
got back, there was a bunch of new handlers.
There was a few seal handlers and mastered arm
handlers. We use mastered arms as well to be
handlers. Sometimes they go through their own
selection process. And so we had a group of new
guys and a group of new dogs. And we all went
off to California to Adler Horse International.
It was about, I think it was eight or nine week
dog training school. And it was great. It was
great being away from. being away from work and
just being a hundred percent immersed into a
great dog training program where we spent all
day literally working our asses off with the
dogs. And then when we weren't working, we were
one -on -one in a hotel room with the dog, just
growing that bond. And I think it was a, it was
a great trip. It was, I think sniper school was
one of the, one of the best schools I went to.
And that, that dog training school was definitely
up there as well. Well, you mentioned losing
Falco. So I thought it was very powerful. listening
to you know how he was treated on the battlefield
then after so kind of explain to people you know
the the way that warrior dog is treated versus
one of you you know the human soldiers or members
of military they're treated just the same i mean
i have to falco tattooed on my arm just like
some of my teammates i've tattooed on me um they're
how we describe it and they're like uh I'm his
dad, and everybody else are his uncles. So we're
pretty much one big family. They're treated just
like any soldier. We ask a lot of these dogs,
we ask them to go into a dark room and get into
a fight with somebody trying to kill us and not
let go. Unfortunately, these dogs die for us
sometimes, so we treat them accordingly. When
they do die, their names go up. We have a memorial
wall at the command. And right beside the memorial
wall for the guys, there's a dog memorial specifically
for the dogs right beside the guys. We had a
memorial service for Falco. He was cremated.
We had a party. We celebrated his life. Even
in the team room, they put up plaques for the
dogs. So they're treated just like any of us.
Beautiful. Well, I think that's the way it should
be. So thank you for illustrating that. So what
about finding Cairo? Tell me about that journey.
So like I said, we've returned from that deployment.
Unfortunately, Falco was no longer with us. So
we had a group of good trainers and handlers
that went overseas and did a buy trip and purchased
dogs. And they had a bunch of brand new dogs
for us. Like I said, we had a bunch of brand
new seals and master at arms. And we had a few
weeks there at the command to have the trainers
kind of evaluate us handling the new dogs. The
new handlers evaluate, have the trainers evaluate
the new handlers handling the new dogs. That's
a mouthful. That's a mouthful. So, um, we had
good trainers, the command could, uh, good head
shed. They watched us put hands on the dogs and,
um, every dog is different. Just like every person.
Right. So. We had a few weeks there just to kind
of see what temperament the dog was and what
temperament the handler was. The master at arms
were previous handlers, dog handlers as well.
So they had more experience handling dogs and
less experience being seals. So the seals had
less experience with the dogs and more experience
being seals. So we would probably have first
pick usually just, you know, just depending on
the temperament of the dog. Since the master
at arms can probably handle a dog a little bit
better, they would be paired up with maybe a
little bit more of the stubborn dogs. But there's
a couple of dogs I had my eye on in the beginning.
One was Bronco and one was Cairo. And the trainers
made the call to give me Cairo. And I didn't
really care either way. I didn't really know
what I was doing. I was just a pretty young guy.
I was a SEAL. I wasn't a dog handler. I know
what I had seen on deployment. But as far as
handling a dog, I had pretty much zero experience.
That was a whole new world to dive into. I had
to step out of my comfort zone. Dogs don't speak
human. So using your body language and voice
infliction and all that stuff was pretty new
to me. All that whole emotions run up and down
the leash I had to get used to. It was a new
world I was stepping into, but it was really
great. to learn all that. Um, but like I said,
I didn't know really much about temperaments
of dogs and what I was looking for. I knew they
were all, all the dogs that they selected were
great workers and the trainers made the, made
the choice to give me Cairo. And I think it was
a pretty good choice. It worked out pretty well.
I'd say so. So thanks guys. So for people listening,
obviously a lot of us are aware of canine, maybe
in the first responder community, the law enforcement
side, tell me the kind of, um, the roles that
these dogs can play and how they are able to
heighten your level of safety when you're on
deployment. Yeah, just the same as law enforcement.
I mean, the dog just depends what dog you have.
Like we use the Malinois, the Belgian Malinois
or the Dutch Shepherd. The Belgian Malinois is
just like the German Shepherd, just a little
smaller, a little shorter hair, maybe a little
more agile. But they can be used for apprehension
or for bite work. And just like the shepherds,
except when we are working overseas, it's a little
hotter. We might be walking in a little ways
and we need the dogs to be a little smaller,
a little more agile. And the Malinois are great
for that. Shepherds are great working dogs, but
as far as other detection, you can teach them
to... To detect narcotics, we don't need that.
So we teach them to detect explosive odor, which
is a whole other evolution in itself. But that's
what our dogs are. They're dual -purpose dogs
for man odor and explosive odor. Now, when I
heard you explaining that and some of the training,
it kind of struck me, a question in my head.
Do you think that more dogs... within our military
would keep some of these men and women safer
with some of these IEDs that we're seeing, or
is that a separate kind of bomb odor? I mean,
the explosive odor is very important. I think
you can have single -purpose dogs that are made
just for explosive odor that can focus just on
that odor and maybe be a little bit safer. With
us, we were doing dual -purpose because we needed
them to find bad guys, so they needed to be trained
on man odor, which was... Once they had that
down, it was pretty easy to keep them engaged.
They loved that fight. It was the explosive odor
that was harder to keep them engaged on sometimes.
But we did it. You just have to put in the effort
and put in the work and put in the hours and
make sure that they are... You just got to keep
it fun. Make sure the dog's happy. The dog wants
to make you happy. And you just have to put in
the work and make it as fun as possible. But
it can be a task. But using a single -purpose
dog and just keeping it updated on odor, on explosive
odor, would be nice. Yeah, it just seems like
that's what's killing so many of our servicemen
and women. And if you were able to have such
success within your team with the canines, it
kind of makes me think, would that be a good
application military -wide? I don't know, I'm
just a fireman. No, I think they are. It's just
a lot of work. keep these dogs up to date but
I know the military has a lot of great dog programs
for us we just had our program that we worked
on and it was a lot of work just to keep that
program up alone and you know there's a for that
kind of demand of dogs it's a lot of explosive
dogs it's it's not easy to find a dog that's
a that's willing to do the work and then once
they are willing to do the work you got to put
in a lot of work to keep them up to date you
know so but there are a lot of Good programs
out there. There's definitely a bunch of good
military programs. Brilliant. Right. Well, then
with Cairo, what's the first kind of memorable
mission that you guys ran together where he was
actually able to do what he was trained for?
Let's see when the first memorable one is. It's
just the first op that we ever went on. It was
my first overseas operation handling a dog. So
I was a little nervous. Had a little bit of experience,
but I was still pretty new with my team as well.
You know, a little bit, but not like I'd been
around a long time. And then my first operation
with the dog, so it's kind of nerve -wracking.
You don't want to mess it up, and you never know.
We put in a lot of work. You know, like I said
earlier, I have to keep up with all of my tasks
as a SEAL, which is quite a bit. You know, there's
a couple things that goes into that. And then
trying to prepare the dog. to get ready for deployment
was also a lot of work so you're putting in all
that work and you're hoping the dog and you perform
to the best of your ability when it finally comes
down to it right so it's a little nerve -wracking
but um we literally plan for we try to plan for
everything we like i said just the school that
we went to alone in california was eight nine
weeks and that was a great school but it didn't
stop there we once we returned home training
didn't end we um We went through every pretty
much rehearsal, everything that we could think
of to get ready and finally show up to the compound
overseas. And we opened the gates. And there's
a whole courtyard full of sheep. And that's like
the one thing that we didn't experiment with.
See, my dog would be gone. Yeah, you think? Would
you go trying to attack him? I don't know. I
think she would actually kill him or anything.
But she'd certainly chase him and bite their
ass. Yeah, yeah, just go have fun. So I wasn't
sure. That's the one thing that we didn't plan
for was the whole... It was literally pretty...
It was packed. It wasn't like you can't walk
through it. And we're having to be quiet, too,
so I'm just trying to figure out what to do.
It's like, we thought we were ready, we thought
we were ready. You open up the courtyard and
it's just full of sheep. So, you know, we made
it work. I hoisted them up and put them on my
back and we just made our way nice and quiet
through the sheep. And the operation went off
without a problem. Knowing what I know now, though.
Because we did practice that later on. I brought
him around a couple of animals. He doesn't care
about animals. I mean, some dogs, you never know.
Some dogs are a little bit animal aggressive
and some dogs aren't. And I didn't know it at
the time, but Cairo would have been just fine.
He wouldn't have messed with the sheep at all.
That's amazing. Now, that reminds me of another
story. I'd love for you to tell that as well,
if you wouldn't mind. The baby story. Because
that, again, illustrates Cairo's temperament
and the level of training combined. Yeah, we
were doing a call out getting people to come
out of the building and some people weren't listening
and a woman had left her child wrapped up in
some blankets. Really hard to see. So at the
end of the call out, the call was made to send
Cairo in to engage a guy that wasn't listening.
When I sent Cairo in, he actually went up to
the bundle, the bundle of clothes that the baby
was wrapped in. and he didn't do anything. He
just sniffed it, and then he split into the other
room and engaged the guy that was hiding behind
some women, and we were able to get that guy
under custody and question him, but it was pretty
crazy how Cairo, some dogs, you know, the dogs
talk with their mouth, and they get excited.
Sometimes they'll go into rooms, and they'll
pick up pillows and blankets, and Cairo didn't.
He just, yeah, it was lucky. He went into the
room. He smelled the baby. He knew the baby wasn't
a threat, and then... went into the other room
and engaged the threat it was uh ended up working
out well that's incredible now this is a complete
side note then some of the breeds german shepherds
malinois um you know pitbulls obviously have
a bad name in the civilian community usually
because of more isolated incidents what's your
perspective as a canine handler on breeds you
know specifically just blaming an entire breed
versus either temperament of that breed or even
you know the factor that we have as as handlers
or owners on the behavior of that dog yeah i
think dogs are just like people every person's
different everybody has their own temperament
so But if you're getting a breed, know what kind
of breed you're getting as well. So it's not
like if you buy a Malinois, know what you're
buying. You're buying a working dog. It's like
buying a husky or even a lab is a hunting dog.
It's a working dog. They have a lot of energy
sometimes. So I think to lump all, so say pit
bulls into one bad category, I had pit bulls
growing up that were awesome. So I think that's
just, I think that's pretty stupid. I think it's
on the owner to know what kind of dog breed you're
getting. And then if you do get a dog that needs
work, it's on you as an owner, as a human, to
give that dog a good home and give it the proper
training it needs and the proper stimulation
it needs. And sometimes you will get an asshole
dog. Sometimes it just happens, man. Sometimes
you get asshole people. Yes. It happens. I don't
know why. And if you have that kind of dog, then
you just take it to… somebody that might be able
to untrain that bad temperament out of them and
if they give you maybe try a couple of different
people reliable people and if you just have an
asshole dog then maybe that dog needs to go to
a different home and you just need to know that
and accept that yeah absolutely that's the only
problem with the asshole peoples they seem to
get a lot of television time whoops yeah that's
my advice i don't know what else No, that's brilliant.
I appreciate it. Thank you. So obviously, you
know, the back end of your story is definitely
a powerful mental health element to it. You talk
about this in the book. You're out there as a
SEAL yourself. Tell me about the impact when
you started losing some friends. I mean, you
have one impact as far as within the mission
itself. But what was the kind of ripple effect
when you started losing brothers out there? It
was pretty significant. I would say that was
what affected me the most. I had traumatic brain
injury as well, TBIs. There was a lot of blast
exposure over the years, whether it's breaching
or rockets or whatever. I think that, multiple
TBIs over the years, along with some loss of
my friends. My hair fell out a few times. I said
it was alopecia. which alopecia is either hereditary
or stress -induced. It wasn't that hard to figure
out. My hair would fall out in large clumps after
I lost a few of my friends, so I think that had
some stress. I think that was a lot of stress.
I think that along with the TBI and some also
self -induced or self -medicating, I take personal
responsibility for a lot of my actions as well,
but I think all three of those combined. sent
me into a really bad place. I was blown up in
2012 by a hand grenade and I think that was kind
of the tipping point to where I was no longer
able to work or function or at least where I
can pull it together and work but I didn't feel
as if I was safe. I might end up getting somebody
killed or myself killed which would not be clear
but if I make a mistake I started getting real
bad migraines and my memory went to shit and
a bunch of other problems. When did you first
start seeing that? Because I want to get to that
in more detail later in the timeline, as it were.
But when did you find yourself kind of leaning
on alcohol or some other elements when you were
still deploying? I think it was a slow progression.
I think I drank in the military even beforehand.
But we used to go out and have fun and celebrate
with my friends. And there's a difference between
that and using alcohol as a medication. to either
sleep or get through some stuff. So it's, it's,
it's, you can't exactly put my finger on when
that transition happened, but I think it was
a slow transition over the years. I mean, the
more brain injury, the more loss of my friends
and then the more alcohol on top of that, I think
just, it turned from one thing to a different
thing. Yeah. Well, I think it's an important
perspective as well, because I think that's what
happens to most people. People think that, you
know, PTSD is from an acute event. So if you
weren't at the World Trade Center or the Vegas
shooting, then you've got no business feeling
the way you feel. Whereas I think a lot of us,
it's, you know, 5, 10, 15, 20 years in the military
as a firefighter, as a police officer, as a corrections
officer, whatever it is. And if it's that chronic
as opposed to acute. it sneaks up on you and
you don't realize until you're about to drown
that's it i mean i can go with anybody we all
deal with our own trauma just because i'm a seal
it's just i'm doing all this just to uh see if
i get people's attention but yeah but that's
a good point here navy seals having some issues
it was a slow progression but that can go with
anybody whether you're exposed to you're a paramedic
seeing terrible things every night or a police
officer getting exposed to terrible things or
any anybody that's getting repeat of head trauma
Over the years, you know, you don't have to have
one horrific event. But if you're exposed to
small, tragic events, we all deal with our things
in different ways. Everybody has their ups and
everybody has their downs. You just got to get
through them. But, yeah, mine was a slow progression.
I think a lot of the concussion blasts over the
years, I was a pretty high -functioning individual.
I was a pretty happy person. And I did pretty
well in my career. I made it pretty far. And
I got to participate in some pretty cool things.
So I was pretty high functioning. And then all
of a sudden, I don't know where it happened or
what happened exactly. But I think with all of
those things, with the repeated blast exposure
and the loss of my friends and the alcohol on
top of that, I went from one job that I loved
to not being able to function, barely. I ended
up drinking myself out of a job once I... I couldn't
be in the military anymore, so they medically
retired me. And then I drank myself out of my
second job. And then I ended up moving back in
with my parents for a while and trying to figure
out what I wanted to do. And I just couldn't
figure it out. It's your own brain, so it's kind
of a weird place to be in, right? My brain wasn't
functioning properly. I knew I could function
at one level, and then all of a sudden... It's
either I'm making this stuff up or my shit's
not working right anymore. But me putting alcohol
on top of that definitely was not the right answer.
I was basically drinking myself to death. Now,
what about your sleep? How was your sleep through
deployment and then onwards? Well, I would drink
myself to sleep. take sleeping meds, but I didn't
want to take all the antidepressants the VA wanted
to put me on or the Ambien or stuff. I had enough
problems with the booze. So I didn't want to
take all that stuff. I would just drink myself
to sleep. But there's great people and there's
great programs out there. I eventually, one of
my best friends, his name is Jared Shaw, he drug
me. So I was just secluding. I ended up getting
a house and I spent a couple months at home with
my parents and visiting them and I ended up getting
a house, but I still wasn't the same. My brain
wasn't functioning. I just wasn't I wasn't the
same person. So my buddy Jared Shaw drug me to
he drug me out of my house and got me to my first
kind of brain treatment center. And then it's
been a long journey since then. And I'm still
working on it. But I've learned a few things
about, you know, you're definitely diet has gotten
better. I learned about fasting and a few brain
treatments that I attended were great. try to
get into meditating and breathing and yoga and
a couple of other healthy options that uh seem
to help me but it's still a process absolutely
well i think that's what people miss about injuries
is you know they don't just go away you learn
to to mitigate the symptoms and obviously you're
trying to get to the core but damage is damage
so i've got for example a back injury that i
can function extremely well but if i don't do
my movement practices the pain starts to come
back because the injury is still there. And it's
the same, I'm sure, with the TBIs. But what's
interesting with TBI, I had a few conversations
with one of your fellow SEALs, Dr. Kirk Parsley,
who is like a sleep medicine guru now. And he
was talking about sleep deprivation and TBI actually
mimic each other. The myelin sheath on the nerve
degenerate on both of those. For your profession
and for, say, law enforcement, and let's also
look at football and mixed martial arts, where
you've got TBIs and then you're coupling it with
sleep deprivation, whether it's shift work like
when you're on deployment and when we're working,
or whether it's shitty quality sleep because
we're drinking ourselves to sleep or we're taking
Ambien, which doesn't put you to sleep. It makes
you unconscious, a very different thing. You're
then amplifying all those areas. So TBI and sleep
deprivation on top of each other is a... you
know, toxic cocktail. Yeah, definitely. I think
they all start adding up. And when I was 20 in
my twenties, it was okay. I'm only in my thirties.
I'm 36 now, but I think with everything, it just,
I feel it a lot more these days. I don't drink
anymore, so I quit boozing, but that doesn't
mean I, I have a sleep apnea machine, which of
course I fucking love that thing. So I went the
last two weeks without using it and I went shit
on my diet. And it was just like, just because
I'm not boozing anymore doesn't mean I can't
feel like shit. I definitely feel it. I feel
it today, and I've been back on track for a couple
of days now. And I'm still trying to recover
from my... So think about if I wasn't using all
of that stuff, I was eating like shit, not using
my sleep machine, and I was drinking on top of
that, I'd probably end up getting sick. My immune
system would completely shit the bed. But now
that I've watched my diet and I fast, I'm going
to fast for... I'm going to probably fast for
a few days and get back on track and use all
the tools that I'm supposed to be using. And
yeah, my brain fog, I can feel it in my head.
I guarantee you it's going to clean up. No problem.
yeah well i mean i have it and i only just did
shift work for 14 years you know and i did martial
arts a lot so i'm sure there was some head trauma
in there too but yeah that's my biggest complaint
and then tinnitus as well but i actually got
migraines for many years too i know you talk
about your horrendous migraines so there's definitely
parallels i mean i wasn't blown up i'll tell
you know i'll tell you that right now but um
yeah even even the lesser version of what you
went through can still have you know an impact
on brain health Yeah, but I wouldn't even call
it the lesser versions. Everybody goes through
their own stuff. And like you said, you can relate.
You just did your, my story just looks different
than yours, but you, yeah, those migraines were
terrible. I think it was, you're probably a little
stressed. I was definitely a little stressed.
I think that had a lot to do with it. And now
that I kind of have a different approach to life,
my migraines aren't nearly as bad. I mean, my
life's not perfect, but I can't complain. My
sleep has improved. I don't booze anymore. I
just do the best I can every day. I try to do
a lot of breathing. I pray every morning. I try
to do some breathing when I do that and stretch.
That's kind of like my anchor in the morning.
I at least get out there and move around a little
bit and do some deep breaths and pray. Then I'll
see where that leads me. Excellent. That's such
a great morning routine as well. I think so many
of us get monkey mind on top of the brain fog.
brain just won't shut the fuck up so right i
know man if i can at least give that 10 -15 minutes
in the morning it's at least something yes absolutely
well i want to go back chronologically because
there's some you know big benchmarks that we
haven't got to yet the first one is um cairo
shooting because obviously that's a very powerful
moment and another layer of trauma for both of
you him and you so tell me about that oh yeah
it was kind of like um the same event where falco
got shot It was just we were a different part
of Afghanistan. We were on our way to the target
compound. They somehow figured out we were coming
and they fled the target on some motorcycles.
Before we could engage them, the bad guys made
their way into a tree line. We weren't allowed
to engage the tree line. So we landed the helicopters
a safe distance away and we made our way up to
there. We tried to get them to come out and comply.
Bad guys usually don't listen. So eventually
the call was made to send the dog in. Cairo ended
up finding the guys, engaging them, and he got
them to show their hand before they can engage
us. Unfortunately, he was shot in the process
as well. It ended up being the guys had... They
were trying to get us to come into the trees,
and there was a guy up high with an automatic
weapon that was going to open fire on us. So
if it wasn't for Cairo, there's no telling who
would have gotten hit if not killed. So that
night, after I sent them, I started hearing gunfire,
and I immediately knew that something was going
on, obviously, that Cairo probably engaged the
guys. So I started to recall him. After a certain
amount of time, I knew something was probably
wrong because Kyra listened pretty well, and
the fact that he wasn't making it back to me
was weird. So I knew something was probably wrong.
It ended up being he got shot through his chest
and his leg, and they had to put a steel plate
in his leg later on. But since he was shot through
his leg, there was a low wall we had to send
him over to get into the trees, and I don't think
he could make his way back over that wall. So
I think he had to find a break in the wall. And
he eventually made his way all the way back around
and I could see him off in the distance. And
as I was making my way towards him, he collapsed.
And if anybody knows anything about Belgian Malinois,
they don't collapse. They just don't. So I immediately
thought he was dead. And I knew the guys had
the firefight under control. So I didn't have
to make my way up there. I made my way over to
Cairo. Another one of my teammates that was on
the line made his way back towards Cairo because
he knew that he had been shot and he knew that
he wasn't needed up there. He was a medic and
he knew that Cairo probably needed him. So I
made my way over to him and I saw that he was
still breathing, which I was really happy about
that because I really honestly I thought he was
immediately dead just the way he just tipped
over and collapsed. So such a terrible circumstance,
but it was pretty cool to see, you know, all
that training and effort that we put in before
we spent quite a bit of time training and going
over different rehearsals. And under such a terrible
situation, it was really cool to see just how
we ended up saving Cairo's life. You know, if
it wasn't for my teammate coming back and helping,
you know, I might not have been able to get,
I had to get Cairo's medical kit out. We carried
a specific medical kit just for the dogs. I had
to get his muzzle on and his vest off and all
of his gear off. Having him there to assist me
just made it go so quick. Just watching that
teamwork happen. As I was taking his vest off
and putting his muzzle on, he had his kit open
and had his fingers inside of his chest. I would
definitely say we saved his life. As we're doing
that, my head shed had the helicopter coming
in to pick us up. As he's stuffing gauze into
Cairo's chest. The helicopter is making its way
towards us. The pilots didn't have to come in.
It's just a dog. They didn't have to put their
lives on the line to come in and pick Cairo up.
We were still in a gunfight at the time, but
they did. So my teammate stuffed his fingers
in his chest and got the bleeding to stop, got
him stable. As soon as he was done doing that,
the bird landed. I picked Cairo up and ran with
him onto the helicopter. There was another medic
on the helicopter that helped work on Cairo until
we got back to the base. Once we returned to
the base, there were no veterinarians. So actual
surgeons had to perform work on Cairo. You know,
they didn't have to do that, but they treated
them just like a soldier. They ended up getting
them stabilized and they did what they had to
do. And once they got them stable. We got him
to Bagram Air Force Base where the veterinarians
were, and he wasn't looking good. He was looking
pretty rough. So I wasn't sure if he would pull
through the night, but he did. He made it through
the night. He just looked a little rough. I laid
there with him next to him the whole night just
in case. But it's crazy just how much pain these
dogs can take. The next day, he was moving pretty
slow. I've never seen him move that slow, but
there's some good pictures of it in the book.
He had a cast on, and he had a fat face from
all the air. All the air went to his face. He
had tubes in his lungs. He had a tracheotomy.
He was looking really rough. He had to get outside
to use the bathroom, and it was definitely by
far the slowest I've ever seen him move in his
life. But he made it all the way. This is the
next day after getting shot twice. he was outside
using the bathroom so just the fact that he could
make it all the way down the hall and outside
was it was impressive man if i got shot through
my chest i don't know if i'd be moving around
the next day and then the day after that he was
like back to his normal self he had all of his
tubes out he had sunglasses on he had a cast
on but he was almost back to his normal self
so it's just crazy to see the amount of pain
and just that these dogs can take I mean, Cairo
cracked his canine in half once, and I would
have never known unless I found the canine in
the kennel and saw it. It's just crazy. Well,
we had one dog get shot through his eye, and
it came out the back of his head, and that dog
continued to work for years. Wow. Yeah, it's
just these dogs do amazing things. You know,
unfortunately, when they do get shot, though,
they just don't make it sometimes because it's
a large bullet going through a pretty small dog.
But when they do pull through, man, their pain
tolerance is crazy. All they want to do is work
and make us happy. As long as they're able to
do that, they stay happy. They're great animals.
It's such a powerful story for two reasons. Firstly,
obviously, Cairo's resilience and the other warrior
dogs out there and what they do and the sacrifices
they make. But the other side is the training,
not only Cairo's own training and the fact that
he was able to facilitate protecting your...
but also that sequence of events after the medic
that helped and then the pilots that came in
and then the doctors after that. Again, it's
one of those stories that had people not taken
their job seriously anywhere along that row of
dominoes, Cairo probably would have died. And
it's the same with humans. I think it's something
that we have to understand in our professions.
If we don't take our training seriously, you
could be that weak link that causes someone to
die. 100%. That, he recovered, that was before
the Bin Laden mission. So if he would have died,
there's no telling how that would have affected
future events. But you're right. Can't stress
that enough. I mean, I literally saw him in the
distance. He had been shot with an AK -47 round
twice, which is a pretty big deal if people don't
know that. I saw him collapse, literally tip
over. And it's not our first rodeo. We lose dogs
all the time. I immediately thought he was dead.
Time is kind of important to get him medical
care because it's like, holy shit, he's dead.
So for my buddy just to even be so well -trained
to know that he's needed back there, it was just
the beginning of that. Yeah, so I can't stress
it enough. Even the helicopter pilots, they're
like, yeah, who gives a shit? It's just a dog,
but we're going to lay it out there to pick him
up because he's part of the team. Yeah, absolutely
amazing. Absolutely amazing to listen to that
story. Well, you mentioned the bin Laden raid,
so that would be a good segue then. So lead me
through Cairo's recovery and then how you guys
found yourself reunited for that. Yeah, so we
sent him, after all those people, even the people,
they sent him to Lackland Air Force Base. And
I wasn't ever sure if he would work again. You
know, getting shot's a pretty big deal. But they
got him fully recovered and back to working.
I think the only thing people really know about
Cairo is the fact that he was on the big mission.
But there's so much more to him than that. I
mean, like I said, we just went over the story
where he was shot. We went on probably hundreds
of other missions when I had him. He was my primary
dog. And then once I didn't have him anymore,
he was a spare dog where he got to do lots of
other great things. And then even towards the
end of his life, he did. It sucks losing him,
but he did some pretty amazing things even towards
the end of his life. So it's great to be able
to tell not just a big piece of history, which
we were a part of. It's great to tell that, but
it's good to get. There's also some fake stuff
that was put out there after we completed the
mission and just some things that weren't completely
accurate. Like he had titanium teeth and he could
fly. Laser beams coming out of his ass. Dogzilla.
Dogzilla. It was a big piece of history, and
he was a big part of that piece of history. So
it's an honor to be able to tell his story and
get the truth out there. But as far as our responsibilities
that night, he made a full recovery. I was no
longer going to be a dog handler, so I handed
him over to the kennel, and I was just going
back to being an assaulter. And he was going
to be a spare dog. I was at a school with one
of my best friends. His name is Nick Check. He's
no longer with us. He died on a hostage rescue
mission overseas. But I was at a school with
him in Arizona. And we were about two to three
days into the school, and I get a call from my
boss saying to get on a plane that night. And
I was coming home and to grab Cairo and to be
in the team room the next day. So that was pretty
normal for things to be going on. We were fairly
busy. And I was 20 -something years old. I didn't
really care what was going on. I didn't have
much else going on in life. I was, you know,
being a SEAL is a pretty all -encompassing job.
So I was pretty busy doing that. So I was like,
yeah, sure. I'll check out of the school and
head. I'll see you in the morning. And I go back
to the classroom and I talked to my, like I said,
my best friend, Nick. I'm like, Hey man, we're
going home. We're getting called back. And he's
like, no, not me. It's just you. And I just thought
that was really weird because Nick, he was a,
he was a really good guy. He was a better operator
than I was. He was, he was a real solid guy.
So I was like, why would they be calling me back
and not you? And, um, yeah, I didn't really care
either way. So I was like, well, have fun at
this school by yourself. That sucks for you,
bro. So I made fun of him a little bit, you know,
probably slapped him in his mouth. I'm just kidding.
He would have beat me up. But I told him to have
fun at the school by himself. And I hope I get
to go do something cool. And just made fun of
him. And he ended up telling everybody. So I
checked out of the school. It was kind of a pain
in the ass. I think I ended up just leaving because
I couldn't figure out the proper channels and
paperwork. And I had a flight to catch. And since
I ended up just leaving. When the people asked
where I went the next day in the class, he ended
up telling everybody I quit. So that was pretty
nice of him. He said it was too hard. He said
it was too hard. You know, SEALs are not known
for quitting. So I guess when somebody in the
classroom asked what happened to me, he told
everybody that I quit. Yeah, I guess he had the
last laugh. So I ended up going back home and
grabbing Cairo and showing up in the team room.
And we did some training. Eventually we were
told what was happening, who we were going after.
We kept it kind of vague in the beginning and
then finally we were told. Made it our way overseas.
And that night, mine and Kyra's responsibilities,
like I said earlier, was to detect any man or
explosive odor. So when we landed, we did sweeps
of the perimeter. I was looking for any explosives,
any tunnels, any booby traps. Once we felt the
perimeter was secure, we made our way to the
inside and we started doing sweeps on the first,
second floor, looking for the same thing. Anywhere
somebody might be hiding, any explosives. Figured
there might be some sort of escape room or hidden
room. Eventually, the call was made to Exfil.
We made our way to Exville where some pretty
amazing things happened. I mean, this obviously
goes into way more detail in the book. This is
just a brief overview. But we conducted sweeps
the first, second floor, made our way to Exville.
And, you know, the mission wasn't over. We knew
that we had gotten him, but we still had to make
it home. So it's not like we stopped to celebrate.
There was some very heroic stuff that happened
that whole entire night. We ended up having one
of the helicopters crashed. A couple guys ended
up getting a firefight, but we ended up accomplishing
the mission and didn't really sink in until we
landed back on base. I remember walking in through
the hangar, and that's when it really kind of
sunk in that everybody was going to make it because
we didn't expect to make it back. We figured
something might go wrong. Our job was pretty
dangerous, as it was in the beginning. Being
a SEAL is just a dangerous period. You're going
after bad guys that want to kill you. So it's
always dangerous. Just whoever we're going after
was maybe a little bit more dangerous. We expected,
you know, something to happen. So when we landed
and I looked around the helicopter or the hangar
and just knowing that we landed back safe and
everybody was still alive, I think a couple of
guys got some shrapnel. We got fragged a little
bit, but nobody cares. Everybody was good. Everybody
was alive. We accomplished the mission. And it
was just, it was, man, it was, that was the moment
that it just kind of sunk in and I got to do
the whole thing with Cairo. So I got to bring
my dog. That was, that was really cool. But,
and it was still, wasn't over then. We still
had a lot of work to do, but that was just kind
of the moment I knew everybody was going to be
okay. And it was done. It's amazing. Absolutely.
Now, now Justin, again, you don't have to be
specific at all with him killed. Did you see
any change in the arena the weeks and months
following that as far as enemy resistance? I
was no longer on deployment. We ended up returning
home. And as far as things changing, definitely
things changed as far as the personal side. I
would say as far as the whole command goes as
well. We had a helicopter crash not too long
after that where we lost a lot of people. So
I think things definitely changed after that.
I also started dealing with my own personal issues
after that as well. Yeah, well, let's walk through
that then. So I know it seems like one of the
key events was your TBI, the wounds that you
sustained with the grenade. So if you want to
talk us through that and then, like you said
before, your journey kind of spiraling downward
after that so we can get to the recovery element.
Yeah, definitely just finished that up, and like
I said, we had extortion, the helicopter crash.
That was pretty traumatic. After that, my grenade
injury happened. I had some drinking issues.
After the grenade injury, it just wasn't the
same. That was my exit into the military. It
happened in 2012. We tried for about three years
to see if we could help. But my head shed and
my team leaders tried to fix me, basically. They
sent me through everything that they possibly
can. Literally everything. It took about three
years, couldn't fix me. And by 2015, I was out
of the Navy. Then it was just pretty much, it
got really bad after that. I lost. It was the
only thing that I had known was being a SEAL.
So I lost all of my family. I had my family back
home, but... A lot of people had already passed
by then, so it was good to see my mom and dad.
But as far as job family goes, I didn't really
keep in contact with a whole lot of people. It
was not a good place to be in. And then I started
drinking a lot more, and I gained a lot of weight.
It was a bad place. My brain wasn't functioning
well. It was at my worst, I would say, when I
exited the year. Maybe a year or two after I
exited the military was when I was at my worst.
I got through it. Luckily, I didn't die. I almost
died a few times just drinking -related incidences
and dumb stuff. Luckily, I'm still here. I thank
God for that. And like I said earlier, my buddy
Jared Shaw kind of reached out and drug me to
a brain treatment place through the Brain Treatment
Foundation. And they got me on the path to start
getting better. Eventually quit drinking after
that brain treatment. I've just tried to make
some different lifestyle changes, whether it's
trying my fasting, I try to meditate, I try different
methods of breathing, try to clean up my diet.
There's all kinds of different modalities. Dogs
are a huge part of that. I have a couple of service
dogs. Cairo helped me get through some pretty
tough times. The transition out of the military
was really tough. His end of life was pretty
tough as well, but having him around was definitely
a modality that was great for me to use. I think
if you're a dog person, having a dog around can
definitely help you out. I've got a good buddy
of mine, Mark Simos, who just got himself a dog,
and he seems to be much happier. He goes, thanks
to you. He kind of made me realize having a dog
around can be a good tool if you get the right
dog and send it to the right training. He ended
up getting a dog and he seems pretty happy. Well,
that was something that struck me when in the
book you talk about you used to be able to take
Cairo home. Then there was a policy change and
then you weren't able to and he had to stay at
the kennel. And it seemed like there was a lot
of time those later years where you just physically
weren't with each other. From my perspective,
what I see now is the same thing in a lot of
my professions, whether they're officially a
therapy dog or whether it's someone who just
has a dog. The healing element of canines, actually,
and horses as well, equine therapy seems to be
very powerful. But definitely having dogs is
so healing. And the irony is we used to actually
have dogs in fire stations 100 years ago, you
know, and, you know, they kept the rats away
and all that stuff. And then we actually took
him away. And now I think we're starting to see
dogs going back in for a different reason. So
tell me about that. When you were finally able
to have Kyra with you all the time, what did
you observe within yourself? Like I said, it
was just good to have him home. We had been through
quite a bit together. And like you said, you
know the value of dogs. And it doesn't have to
be a dog. Whatever floats your boat, man. Go
get you a service pig. or you know whatever makes
you happy go get you a parrot but uh for a lot
of people it's dogs and um you know Cairo wasn't
a service dog he was a working dog he um he was
an attack dog but towards the end of his life
you know he did it was just good to be able to
take care of him I mean think about the dog that
you have at home or pet that you love that you
have at home and uh think about how much you
love that animal and all the stuff that you've
been through And now me and Cairo got to – we
had that bond along with him getting shot for
me, literally almost dying for me, going on hundreds
of operations together, getting to participate
in one of the world's most famous missions, whatever
you want to call it. So that bond was pretty
– it was a pretty strong bond. I loved him quite
a bit, if that makes sense. And then he did quite
a bit for me. And to be able to take care of
him and know that he had a good end of life was
– It was very important to me, and I got to do
that for him. So I guess that's where the value
comes across as. I wouldn't call him a service
dog, but I was going through my own personal
issues as well, and he had a pretty shit go towards
the end of his life. So for me to be able to
make sure he was as comfortable as possible was
very important to me. Yeah, well, flipping it
around, just like you said, Cairo obviously was
in the same battlefield as you, and you mentioned
seeing almost like PTSD. So what were some of
the things that you almost recognized in his
behavior? He got weird around thunderstorms.
So that was different to see. He'd been around
quite a bit of gunfire explosions, helicopter
rides. But then all of a sudden, once I got him
retired, thunderstorms would get to him. He would
just try to hide under stuff and cower. And I
think he actually pissed the bed once. So that
was really weird to see. So he definitely had
some sort of effects, I guess, from getting shot.
Yeah. Now, in the book, I think it's at the very
beginning, you start with a quote. You say that
buying a dog is like a small tragedy. You know
on the very first day how it will all turn out.
And that resonated so deeply. I've had dogs ever
since I was a little boy, usually German Shepherds
as well. And you're absolutely right. nikita
my one because of that same thing she had a heart
broken by her last dog and it took literally
about four years for her to finally open up because
like you said it's the journey that you have
to enjoy you know that's going to happen you
know we might die first who knows but you never
know to not have a dog just because of fearing
the grief at the end you know it's the wrong
way of thinking about it i agree with that and
then i also think i have too many dogs sometimes
but no here we just lost It was about a year
ago now, not too long ago. She died at six. All
of a sudden, she was great. She was a Hagen.
She's in the book as well. She was a little 50
-pound female Malinois. We think something was
wrong with her because she was so tiny, but she
was a really great dog. She was one of those
special dogs just like Kyra was. And then all
of a sudden at six, she died one night instantly.
Just took her to the vet and brought her in the
back, and she was gone after that. So never saw
her again. But, you know, that hurt. real bad
but i also have you know i still have a couple
of more dogs and we just kept another one so
you can look at it either way i mean the dogs
are a pain and if you do get a dog just know
that you know you have to take care of it it's
going to be a lot of work to get in a puppy but
once you do have the dog there you put the right
training and effort into them they're they're
a great tool they're great they make you happy
they can make you happy but um you know it's
a lot of work sometimes as well but i get what
she's I get what she means it sucks losing them
every time uh every time you buy one you know
they're not gonna you know they're gonna go but
then again like you said you never know the dog
might outlive you too so you just got to live
life to the fullest and if the dog makes you
happy go get yourself a dog exactly well my dad
actually was is a veterinarian retired now so
I grew up around you know Like you were saying,
the surgery side, seeing these dogs not shot
usually, obviously hit by cars or something.
So I remember doing emergency surgeries with
him, watching, assisting, but then helping euthanize
as well. And it was heartbreaking. But there's
that humanitarian element. And it's funny because
I've had conversations with people on this podcast
about that concept for humans. There's a certain
point where they're suffering so much that it's
the right thing to do to let them transition.
Of course. Yeah, I mean, yeah, of course. I agree.
For us, it was she was gone anyways. So her ammonia
had attacked her brain. So it's just it was a
pretty easy call. But sometimes if they're not
going to have a good quality of life, then yeah,
it's just something you have to do. And it's
just it sucks every time, especially if it's
a really good dog that you put a lot of work
into. But it is it's part of I mean, I just thank
God that I got such a great dog. because you
could end up getting a shit dog. No matter how
much work you put into it, you just have a suck
dog. And so I just, you know, I only got six
years with her in Cairo. I only got 10 years
with him, but that's not a bad push, man. You
know, it sucks. I wish they would have lasted
till 15, but I'm just, I'm very thankful for
the time that we did have together. Absolutely.
Well, speaking of, you know, their health. Just
with the background that you have, obviously
the level that you're at working with dogs, what
are some of the common mistakes that you see
some civilians making when it comes to training
and then also exercise and feeding their dogs?
It just depends on the dog that you have. I would
just say just educate yourself. Know what kind
of dog you have. I have two Malinois, so the
tools in my toolbox might be a lot more. Not
only use reward or treat based training or clicker
training. I keep it as happy as possible, as
much as possible. But I have Malinois who also
you need a stern hand sometimes. So sometimes
I need to use a choke chain. Most of the time
I don't need a prong. But if that's the tool
that you need, if you have a high energy dog,
sometimes you might need to bump it up a level.
It's on the owner to know what kind of dog you
have and what kind of tools are going to best.
communicate the message clearly to the dog because
the dog doesn't speak your language you have
to figure out a way to communicate with the dog
and so you want to pick the best tools that's
going to get the communication clearly across
so if you have a pug you might not need to get
a prong collar and choke that shit choke that
thing you know you just need to get a little
clicker and some treats and your little pug will
be fine but if you have a full -blown boy Malinois
who's a monster, you might want to go get a choke
chain or a prong collar or a knee collar. Or
if you have a low -tempered female Malinois,
you might just be able to get by with reward
-based treat training. It's all on you to educate
yourself and know what kind of dog you have and
always just be careful. Just do the research
on the dog. If you have a high -temperament,
highly aggressive dog, know what you have. if
you have a shih tzu or a pug know what you have
and then just train yourself on how to clearly
communicate with your animal make him happy try
to keep it as happy as possible and that's about
all you can do love that well i'm glad that you
said that about the prong collar because that's
what i use with mine purely because any other
collar she would just choke herself on so she
was far less no so whereas this she'll walk alongside
me but if she gets that prey drive of a squirrel
something she's got she's got a thing about bikes
too if you're on a motorbike or yeah a cyclist
goes by she'll you know she doesn't lunge at
them but you know but it's just that little impulse
to stop her when she does pull but that's once
in a blue moon but you know for her she's got
this thick thick german shepherd hair that seems
to be the only thing that gives her the stimulus
between you know go and no i guess right no it's
huge and that's on that's on you you know how
to read your dog you know every dog is different
just like every person you know her little quirks
And you know what tool to properly get that message
across. And like you said, having that longer
hair, that's exactly what I was thinking a while
ago. I just didn't say that. Sometimes you just
have longer hair, so you need that prong collar
to get in there. Because if not, you're just
going to choke the dog. And then you might, to
me, that's just stupid because it's not proper
training. You're just choking your dog. And it's
actually, you can damage the dog's throat that
way. But people see the prong collar and it looks
terrible. And they think, oh, that's cruel. But
it's not because you're just. You're causing
the dog not to choke itself, which is actually
using the proper tool the proper way, and you're
being smart. Same thing with a shock collar.
People – I mean I've done it. I'll be honest
with it. I've accidentally shocked my dogs more
than I should have. And you know what I did?
I put that shock collar on my neck, and I blast
myself because I feel terrible. You can go get
an e -collar, and just – it's on you to use the
tool properly. All that's doing is – getting
the dog's attention if you do a little bit of
research on it you're finding the dog's tractation
level which is it's like basically tapping the
dog on the neck just to say hey listen to me
so just because you have an e -collar on a dog
you don't have to like full blast that thing
i mean just find out what your dog responds to
you can even just use the beep on the collar
some dogs might even just respond to that they
have vibrations and beeps so Yeah, I would just
say it's just all about educating yourself and
knowing what's out there. And just because you
think one thing is really bad, just do a little
bit of research into it and look at some reputable
people. There's plenty of Navy SEALs out there,
dog trainers, Mike Ritland, John Devine, my buddy
Mike Toussaint. They all have really good training
companies. Just do a little bit of research.
Just train yourself. Yeah, exactly. I had Mike
on the show, so he was another great guest. So
then another thing that I see in the civilian
world is, you know, again, I've got a shepherd.
I walk her a lot. I used to run her a lot, but
she almost seemed like she would pull a muscle
as she got a little bit older. She ran too much,
which is a little bit strange, but I'm not sure
if that's muscular or if it's even spinal. Hopefully
not. But regardless, I understand that she is
a working dog and therefore needs a lot of exercise.
So each walk we do is at least two miles and
throw balls and stuff in the backyard. um but
it seems to me and obviously it reflects even
in our population's health a little bit that
a lot of these dogs people oh i've got a terrible
dog it doesn't behave and then you find out that
it's in a crate all day never gets walked so
what's your kind of education to us as far as
the level of exercise that a canine in general
should be having yeah it just depends on the
dog if it's a if it's a male you said run that
thing at least once a day probably twice a day
just it's on if your dog yeah that's um That's
the answer to your problem. If you say your dog's
an asshole, but you're leaving in the cage all
day, well, who's the asshole? I'm going to make
a t -shirt with that one. I mean, I don't, yeah.
You just know what kind of dog you're getting.
I guess people don't realize that sometimes people
just see a cool dog, and I guess I've been responsible
for it when I was a kid. You see a pit bull or
a wallflower, just do your research, know what
you're getting if you live in an apartment. Don't
get a Malinois or do get a Malinois. Leave that
thing alone for 12 hours and leave them out and
see what happens when you return home. You're
going to have a new apartment. It's going to
be real nice. He's going to hook you up real
good. But no, that's not fair to the dog. And
it also becomes a liability sometimes. Because
if you don't stimulate the dog, the dog needs
stimulation, physical and mental. And if you're
not giving them stimulation, the dogs speak with
their mouth, right? So the dogs might bite somebody
because... dogs will be pissed off you're not
stimulating it whether it's mental stimulation
or physical stimulation dogs speak with their
mouth you know it could be a problem absolutely
well i got one more thing i want to explore and
then go to some closing questions so i can let
you go but you mentioned the tbi therapy what
modalities actually work well for you and i think
everybody's different i think everybody should
just try a whole wide plethora of things man
I think starting my spiritual connection was
probably number one. And then other than that,
diet and just life changes. And I think everybody's
different. Everybody should look into different
diets alone. Look into fasting. Look into intermittent
fasting. I think give everything a good, decent
shot. Try everything multiple times. If one thing's
not working, like people told me to meditate
so many times and it just ain't happening yet.
So you can fight that battle or you can just
do a little bit more research. Like I started
learning about breathing. So I incorporated breathing
and there's like chanting you can start doing.
And there's all kinds of different methods that
can try to put you in these different states.
So when people tell you to meditate, you're just
like, oh, I don't know. It ain't working. And
then you just give up. You know, I'm definitely
guilty of that. And even diet, you know, everybody's
different just because one diet doesn't work.
Maybe a different diet works. Maybe the carnivore
diet's for you. Maybe. you know it's a plant
-based diet who knows but just try everything
give it a good shot like float tanks and um i
think i think there's even you know getting into
a good exercise program and a good stretching
program is very beneficial but i also i try to
i think breathing is very beneficial for me as
well to try to get me into a nice calm meditative
state so i also try to do my my stretching while
i'm breathing to multitask because you know i
can't just I don't have exactly all day sometimes.
I can relate. Yeah, but I think everybody's different.
I think you should just try a whole plethora
of different things and just put these tools
in your toolbox. And some of them work and some
of them don't. And some of them you might need
to use together. Sometimes people take CBD and
do yoga or go in the float tank or do some breathing
in the float tank. I don't know. Yeah, I swear
by CBD. Oh, yeah. My buddy Jason Higgins, he's
got a good thing going with some CBD. He's doing
some great things out there. Brilliant. I think
it's incredible. Now, you mentioned the meditation.
Have you ever tried the app Headspace? I have.
Oh, yeah. That's my gateway. I can't sit there
and just be in a room quiet. But, yeah, that
kind of very basic kind of kindergarten level
meditation is what's kind of opened the door
for me. Definitely, yeah. And I'm going to try
it again probably. So I go through different
phases. I think it's good for you to switch it
up too, just like a workout program. If you get
stuck on CrossFit for however many years, you
need to switch it up, surprise your body. So
I think just because I've been doing my breathing
doesn't mean I can't try some headspace again
or even try some of that chanting stuff or whatever.
I don't know. Look into a couple of different
things and see how my body reacts for sure. And
then Kirk, the seal I told you about that became
a doctor, he has a sleep supplement that is incredible.
So if you're looking to improve the quality of
your sleep, I'll send you the link to it. But
it's amazing. I use it not every single day,
but it's 30 minutes before you want to go to
bed. It will put you to sleep, but it starts
the cascade of sleep. It doesn't snow you with
melatonin. So your quality of sleep is normally
a lot better. That's so huge these days. That's
the one thing I can't. really complain about
my sleep has improved, but I'd please send me
that information because I'm always up to try
new things. Brilliant. I will. All right. So
then go into the closing questions. Firstly,
let's talk about the book. So the book is No
Ordinary Dog. Where can people find that? Should
be able to find it in all bookstores, anywhere
online, Amazon. And there's also, so there's
No Ordinary Dog. And then there's also the young
adult reader version of it. which is called warrior
dog excellent i'm gonna have to get that for
my son my son's dog crazy as well but he's 13
so he'd probably be fine reading the the main
one but fantastic yeah the the main one isn't
all that gory but it has a few cuss words in
it and it is a war book so it has a little bit
of stuff in there but we figured uh so i donated
cairo's vest to the 9 -11 museum and it um one
of the guys there kind of explained how Well,
number one, 9 -11 happened so long ago that a
bunch of kids these days don't even know what
9 -11 is sometimes. And when they do come to
the museum, you know, some items relate better.
They get the point across better than others,
like boots or helmets, whether that's, you know,
from a soldier or a firefighter. And he said
any dog items can definitely help, you know,
kind of get the message across. When I donated
Cairo's vest there, it kind of opened my eyes
to that. I thought that was really cool. And
I guess they saw that same potential with the
book when they read No Ordinary Dog. No Ordinary
Dog is a great book. It's like a Navy SEAL Marley
and me. It's great for anybody. It's anybody
who loves dogs or animals. It's a great dog story.
It's anybody that wants to join the military,
be a dog handler, be a SEAL. And I think the
kids' book is great for the same. Any kids that
are aspiring to... Just even learn about what
their parents do in the military or anything
about dogs in the military. I hope everybody
really enjoys Cairo's story and gets something
out of it and gets to learn it's a piece of history.
I only had one shot at telling the story, so
I was pretty nervous about getting it out there.
Looking at the reviews online, everybody seems
to love it, so I'm very happy. Yeah, no, they
do. And like we were talking before we started
recording, you know, I've been engrossed in that
whole metadata reviews thing as I'm kind of trying
to get ready to put my book out. And yeah, compared
to a lot of them out there, it's been extremely
well received. It's perfect. I mean, it's a dog
book. Everybody loves dogs. And it's a, he was
a great pup. Yeah, he really was. Well, it's
a hell of a story too. But I listened to it on
Audible. So for everyone out there, it's also
an audio book. And that was the element I listened
to. And it was you narrating, wasn't it? I did
narrate it myself. So if you like hearing my
voice, they said everybody would enjoy it a little
bit better. So I was like, okay, let's do this.
Yeah. It turned out good. I agree. I think biography
should be, you know, it's different if it's a
novel or something, but brilliant. I had Cairo
do it. In spirit. He's not participating. In
spirit. He was there. All right. Then the first
of the closing questions, is there a book someone
else has written that you love to recommend to
people? It can be something related to what we
discussed today or something completely different.
Oh, man, that's a great question. There's so
many great books out there. It's hard to just
recommend just one. Let's come back to that question.
Give me a minute to think. Okay. And it can be
more than one. It doesn't have to be just one.
Same question, but a movie. Any movies you love?
Of course, you go with Navy Seals or Charlie
Sheen. That's any movies I love. Let's see. We
just watched the other day. One of my favorites.
The Other Guys. One of my top comedies. Love
that movie. Brilliant. I heard you mention...
Was it with Mike Ritland? You mentioned Max.
What did you think of that film? I can't remember
how it went. I just... I know I cried. It's been
a while since I've seen it. I cried like a girl
watching it. Did you? Yes. I can't remember.
It's been quite a while since I've seen it. Yeah,
it's hard for me to remember. All right. So the
next question, is there a person you recommend
to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to
the first responders, military, and associated
professions of the world? There's a bunch of
great guys out there talking these days, you
know, Jocko and Goggins. All those guys. I would
say the same thing that goes with the books.
The recent books, I just listened to Jocko's
and David Goggins has a great one. Dan Crenshaw
just came out with a great book. Those would
be Jack Carr with The Terminal List. It's a good
one. And there's a recent one. Yeah, Jack was
on, Jocko's been on, and then David's supposed
to be coming on. But I think, I want to say they're
in a holding pattern for his new book. So hopefully
when that comes out, we'll get him on. Yeah,
those are all really good. That's who I would
obviously recommend. That's who I've been listening
to recently, so might as well. Brilliant. All
right, so then the last question before we make
sure everyone knows where to find you. What do
you do to decompress? Well, I was wakeboarding
a lot recently. Oh, really? Trying to get back
into a good training schedule, but my boat broke.
all good boats in the shop but these days you
know i just try to uh do something physical trying
to enjoy summer try to spend a lot of time on
the water while the water's warm brilliant yeah
i love wakeboarding things are going dude i love
it it's it's been it's been quite with the the
whole everything getting shut down recently just
uh the boat was working just fine we put a lot
of hours on it recently but then you know nothing
Nothing lasts forever. I hit a deer the other
day, so my truck's gone, then my boat broke.
There's always something that comes in threes.
There's been a couple of more things that have
happened that I'm working through, but it's all
good. We're going to get that boat back soon
before summer's over. I don't know, man. Until
then, I'm just going to try to fill my time with
something productive. When you said you hit a
deer, I thought you were going to say on your
boat. I'm like, well, you're probably not doing
that right then. That would have been interesting.
That would have been good. It always comes in
waves. But other than that, these days, just
trying to keep busy, trying to get my boat back.
And yeah, that's about it. Fantastic. What about
you? How's everything going on your end? Good,
good, yeah. No, I'm actually – I had a good day
today. I had the book cover sent to me. So, yeah,
it is a roller coaster. Everything is up and
down. But I'm on the upswing. I know you're –
You're having issues right now with the boats
and the trucks and the phones, but yeah. It's
all good. It's kind of put a delay on a few things,
but it was great to be able to talk to you. Today
was a great day as well. Yeah, no, I've loved
this. We'll try to do something productive. Yeah,
it was a good conversation. Thank you. Just so
that everyone knows how to reach you online,
where's your Instagram handle and do you have
any websites or anything you can send them towards?
Yeah, Instagram is noordinarydogbook. is my book
page. And then I have a personal page, which
is will cheese with three E's, which is a little
weird, but fantastic. Well, well, I just want
to say thank you so much. Thank you obviously
for your service, but I mean, that goes without
saying, but thank you for telling the story.
Cause I know it's not an easy story, especially
when, you know, when people come on and they
tell not only the cool element of their story,
but the. the vulnerable courageous part which
is the the struggles whether it's physical struggles
mental struggles and then the journey out which
gives people hope as well but i mean your story
and obviously cairo story is something that everyone
needs to hear and so thank you for writing the
book but more importantly thank you for taking
the time and coming on the podcast today yeah
i appreciate you having me that's one of the
reasons that writing it i get to tell cairo story
it's a big piece of history i get to bring attention
to some of the amazing things that these dogs
do which you know of and then um If I'm going
to be doing all that, I might as well tell some
of my own personal story. I know there's a lot
of people out there that are hurting. The veteran
suicide rate is terrible, but there's a lot more
people than just veterans that are hurting, whether
it's military or first responders. We all deal
with our trauma in different ways, and we all
have to go through our stuff. Telling my story
can bring attention to some of these modalities
that might be able to help you, whether it's
go getting a dog and making you happy. trying
some of this hippie woo stuff, whether it's breathing
or fasting or meditating, or I don't know, man,
if I could get somebody's attention to maybe
get them on the right path. And man, that makes
me happy because I got to do something. So I
don't want to waste my time too much. So if I
can help somebody out, that really makes me happy.