WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.620 This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran 00:00:02.620 --> 00:00:04.960 -owned and operated performance optimization 00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:08.039 company that I introduced recently as a sponsor 00:00:08.039 --> 00:00:10.820 on this show. Well, since then I have actually 00:00:10.820 --> 00:00:13.080 been using my products and I have had incredible 00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:15.939 success. There was initial blood work that was 00:00:15.939 --> 00:00:19.039 extremely detailed and based on that they offered 00:00:19.039 --> 00:00:23.559 supplementation. So I began taking DHEA. bpc 00:00:23.559 --> 00:00:26.539 157 for inflammation based on the fact that i've 00:00:26.539 --> 00:00:28.859 been a stuntman a martial artist and a firefighter 00:00:28.859 --> 00:00:31.980 my whole life lots of aches and pains dihexa 00:00:31.980 --> 00:00:34.759 to help cognition after multiple punches to the 00:00:34.759 --> 00:00:37.820 head and shift work and peptides four months 00:00:37.820 --> 00:00:40.119 later they did a detailed blood work again and 00:00:40.119 --> 00:00:43.119 i was actually able to taper off two of the peptides 00:00:43.119 --> 00:00:45.640 because my body had responded so well to just 00:00:45.640 --> 00:00:48.079 one of them that it was optimized at that point 00:00:48.570 --> 00:00:51.890 So I cannot speak highly enough of the immense 00:00:51.890 --> 00:00:54.390 range of supplementation that they offer, whether 00:00:54.390 --> 00:00:57.409 it's male health, female health, peptides to 00:00:57.409 --> 00:00:59.429 boost your own testosterone, which I would argue 00:00:59.429 --> 00:01:02.429 is needed by a lot of the fire service, or whether 00:01:02.429 --> 00:01:04.569 it's exogenous testosterone needed, especially 00:01:04.569 --> 00:01:08.000 after TBIs or advanced age. Now, as I mentioned 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:10.379 before, the other side of this company is an 00:01:10.379 --> 00:01:12.900 altruistic arm called the Transcend Foundation, 00:01:13.420 --> 00:01:15.980 which is putting veterans and first responders 00:01:15.980 --> 00:01:19.120 through some of their protocols free of charge. 00:01:19.379 --> 00:01:22.079 Now, Transcend are also offering you, the audience, 00:01:22.260 --> 00:01:25.319 10 % off their protocols. And you can find that 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:28.040 on jamesgearing .com under the Products tab. 00:01:28.400 --> 00:01:30.859 And if you want to hear more about Transcend 00:01:30.859 --> 00:01:34.560 and their story, listen to episode 808 with the 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:38.930 founder, Ernie Colling. or go to transcendcompany 00:01:38.930 --> 00:01:44.049 .com. This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr, 00:01:44.069 --> 00:01:46.170 yet another company that's doing great things 00:01:46.170 --> 00:01:49.269 for the first responder community. As a strength 00:01:49.269 --> 00:01:51.549 and conditioning coach myself, who also trains 00:01:51.549 --> 00:01:54.769 tactical athletes, dissemination of wellness 00:01:54.769 --> 00:01:56.909 information is one of the biggest challenges. 00:01:57.670 --> 00:01:59.849 Now, TeamBuildr is the premier strength and 00:01:59.849 --> 00:02:02.209 conditioning software for tactical athletes. 00:02:02.489 --> 00:02:04.969 And there are several features that really impress 00:02:04.969 --> 00:02:08.449 me. Firstly, there is a full exercise library. 00:02:08.629 --> 00:02:10.949 So you, the personal trainer, does not have to 00:02:10.949 --> 00:02:14.110 create that within your own department. Secondly, 00:02:14.289 --> 00:02:17.610 you can send out programming, but also individualize, 00:02:17.669 --> 00:02:20.449 which I love. So you blanket program for everyone. 00:02:20.650 --> 00:02:23.370 Now you can tweak based on someone's injury, 00:02:23.569 --> 00:02:26.069 someone's need to maybe drop some body composition, 00:02:26.110 --> 00:02:29.030 rather than having to write a program for every 00:02:29.030 --> 00:02:31.800 single person on their own. TeamBuildr also 00:02:31.800 --> 00:02:34.280 allows you to build custom questionnaires to 00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:37.319 collate health and wellness data. It integrates 00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:39.879 with wearables. And I think one of the most important 00:02:39.879 --> 00:02:43.680 things is obviously it tracks. To me, it's imperative 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:47.139 that we as a profession start tracking our people 00:02:47.139 --> 00:02:51.039 from day one and then over the full span of their 00:02:51.039 --> 00:02:54.259 career, therefore catching potential wellness 00:02:54.259 --> 00:02:57.800 issues and injuries before they happen. Now, 00:02:57.800 --> 00:03:00.020 if you want to try TeamBuildr, they are offering 00:03:00.020 --> 00:03:02.360 you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast, 00:03:02.780 --> 00:03:06.960 a free 14 -day trial to experience all of the 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:09.500 features. And if you want to take a deeper dive 00:03:09.500 --> 00:03:14.039 into Team Builder, listen to episode 1032 with 00:03:14.039 --> 00:03:18.039 Melissa Mercado or go to teambuildr .com. And 00:03:18.039 --> 00:03:19.580 I'll spell that to you because it's not as you 00:03:19.580 --> 00:03:26.319 think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome 00:03:26.319 --> 00:03:28.039 to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:29.919 my name is James Gearing and this week it is 00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:32.979 my absolute honor to welcome on the show communications 00:03:32.979 --> 00:03:36.919 consultant and the author of Blackbird, A Mother's 00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:40.340 Reflection on Grief, Loss, and Life After Suicide, 00:03:40.580 --> 00:03:44.780 Betsy Thibault Stevenson. So we discuss a host 00:03:44.780 --> 00:03:47.460 of topics from her journey into the world of 00:03:47.460 --> 00:03:51.800 communications, ethical storytelling, losing 00:03:51.800 --> 00:03:57.090 her son Charlie, navigating grief, writing a 00:03:57.090 --> 00:03:59.289 book that would help others with this issue, 00:03:59.409 --> 00:04:02.349 and so much more. Now, before we get to this 00:04:02.349 --> 00:04:04.629 incredible conversation, as I say every week, 00:04:04.710 --> 00:04:07.710 please just take a moment. Go to whichever app 00:04:07.710 --> 00:04:10.229 you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, 00:04:10.449 --> 00:04:14.669 leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single 00:04:14.669 --> 00:04:17.870 five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast, 00:04:18.029 --> 00:04:20.750 therefore making it easier for others to find. 00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:25.600 And this is a free library of well over 1 ,000 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:29.339 episodes now. So all I ask in return is that 00:04:29.339 --> 00:04:32.199 you help share these incredible men and women's 00:04:32.199 --> 00:04:35.699 stories so I can get them to every single person 00:04:35.699 --> 00:04:39.000 on planet Earth who needs to hear them. So with 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:43.560 that being said, I introduce to you Betsy Thibault 00:04:43.560 --> 00:05:06.259 Stevenson. Enjoy. Well, Betsy, I want to start 00:05:06.259 --> 00:05:09.459 by saying two things. Firstly, thank you to Karina, 00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:12.819 to Samartino, who connected us originally. And 00:05:12.819 --> 00:05:14.939 secondly, I want to welcome you onto the Behind 00:05:14.939 --> 00:05:17.699 the Shield podcast today. Thank you very much 00:05:17.699 --> 00:05:20.519 for having me. So where on planet Earth are we 00:05:20.519 --> 00:05:24.519 finding you this afternoon? I am in Alexandria, 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:26.560 Virginia, which is right outside Washington, 00:05:26.819 --> 00:05:29.439 D .C. Brilliant. Well, I would love to start 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:31.860 at the beginning of your timeline first, and 00:05:31.860 --> 00:05:33.759 obviously then we'll progress into your family 00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:35.800 and the events that we're going to be discussing 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:38.800 today. But tell me where you were born and tell 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:40.600 me a little bit about your family dynamic, what 00:05:40.600 --> 00:05:44.759 your parents did, how many siblings. Sure. I 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:48.660 was born and raised in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. 00:05:50.699 --> 00:05:56.329 I have one. sister and I have a stepsister and 00:05:56.329 --> 00:06:03.750 a stepbrother. My parents, so I grew up in South 00:06:03.750 --> 00:06:06.589 Louisiana with my family and then my mom left 00:06:06.589 --> 00:06:11.310 when I was 10 and my sister was seven and she 00:06:11.310 --> 00:06:17.389 moved to Colorado. And so my sister and I spent 00:06:17.389 --> 00:06:21.680 a lot of time going back and forth. If you can 00:06:21.680 --> 00:06:25.199 think about the differences between Louisiana 00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:28.420 and Colorado, particularly in the 70s, it was 00:06:28.420 --> 00:06:36.740 quite a different world. And so I went to school, 00:06:37.060 --> 00:06:42.519 had my friends and activities and life and family 00:06:42.519 --> 00:06:46.639 in Baton Rouge. And then as soon as school's 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:50.449 out, you... went off to colorado which was glorious 00:06:50.449 --> 00:06:56.649 um and certainly had a lot of um really unique 00:06:56.649 --> 00:07:00.410 experiences and freedoms in the mountains that 00:07:00.410 --> 00:07:05.009 we we couldn't replicate in in louisiana but 00:07:05.009 --> 00:07:07.509 i also was leaving my friends behind which became 00:07:07.509 --> 00:07:11.029 a bigger and bigger issue as i got older you 00:07:11.029 --> 00:07:15.569 know when i was 10 11 12 you know it was a little 00:07:15.569 --> 00:07:18.209 easier and then by high school it was a bit of 00:07:18.209 --> 00:07:21.730 a strain which isn't to say i didn't love it 00:07:21.730 --> 00:07:25.490 but i didn't know anybody who had a life any 00:07:25.490 --> 00:07:29.709 thing remotely resembling mine just starting 00:07:29.709 --> 00:07:34.350 with the fact that if um parents divorced which 00:07:34.350 --> 00:07:39.990 um that again in the 70s in louisiana was becoming 00:07:39.990 --> 00:07:42.889 more common but wasn't necessarily a common thing 00:07:42.889 --> 00:07:47.480 but um Kids were always raised by their mothers 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:51.639 and we were raised by our father. And again, 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:56.019 a lot of upsides to that for all of us have a 00:07:56.019 --> 00:07:58.100 great relationship with my mother. That was never 00:07:58.100 --> 00:08:03.120 the issue. But, you know, you look around and 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:05.759 you don't see anybody like you. Right. And that's 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:09.480 the core. No matter who you are, where you grew 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:12.959 up, what your situation is, you want to see people 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:18.199 like you. I didn't know anybody like me. My dad 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:22.620 remarried when I was in high school and my step 00:08:22.620 --> 00:08:24.660 siblings moved into the house. And so we were 00:08:24.660 --> 00:08:28.759 four of four kids, two adults living very much 00:08:28.759 --> 00:08:34.059 a Brady Bunch lifestyle. And luckily, the four 00:08:34.059 --> 00:08:37.480 kids all got along really well. I was the oldest, 00:08:37.500 --> 00:08:40.360 so I was probably the most removed from the day 00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:44.519 to day dynamics. um and went to college in Louisiana 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:47.159 and then as soon as I graduated I moved to Washington 00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:49.179 DC and I thought I'd be here for a couple years 00:08:49.179 --> 00:08:54.919 and now it's been almost 40 so um so that's kind 00:08:54.919 --> 00:09:00.600 of my trajectory well you mentioned um firstly 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:03.299 you know you not being the same as others I would 00:09:03.299 --> 00:09:07.960 imagine In that state, maybe at that time, you're 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:10.460 at the tail end of there still almost being kind 00:09:10.460 --> 00:09:13.720 of shame around the fractured nuclear family. 00:09:13.860 --> 00:09:16.200 So as we're going to move forward, we'll talk 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:18.379 about shame in the world of suicide. But talk 00:09:18.379 --> 00:09:21.259 to me about that kind of element when you were 00:09:21.259 --> 00:09:25.980 an offspring of a divorced family. Yes. Well, 00:09:26.179 --> 00:09:29.919 you know, there are a lot of layers to it. One, 00:09:30.019 --> 00:09:33.220 I think there's a lot of curiosity, right? you 00:09:33.220 --> 00:09:38.620 know um like how do you how are they doing it 00:09:38.620 --> 00:09:41.440 um how are they functioning it it broke every 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:46.700 rule um culturally that we had um in our community 00:09:46.700 --> 00:09:53.519 um there was some resentment i as a child that 00:09:53.519 --> 00:10:00.299 i perceive from other grown -up women um i wish 00:10:00.299 --> 00:10:03.279 it weren't the case but I can still remember 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:09.340 the names and the tone of the voice of the women 00:10:09.340 --> 00:10:14.899 who were mostly parents of my friends, not my 00:10:14.899 --> 00:10:17.899 close friends, but people I was around, who had 00:10:17.899 --> 00:10:26.039 a lot of judgment and scorn toward my mother 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:29.519 for having the audacity of leaving her children. 00:10:30.420 --> 00:10:36.820 And, um, so, but we felt that I felt that, um, 00:10:37.100 --> 00:10:43.179 and, you know, harder to grasp when you're young, 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:46.220 but, but we were aware of it. Both our parents 00:10:46.220 --> 00:10:49.639 did, they were very good to each other in the 00:10:49.639 --> 00:10:53.200 divorce and that helped so much. They were far 00:10:53.200 --> 00:10:58.110 ahead of their time. Um, I think we understand 00:10:58.110 --> 00:11:04.409 a lot more about how to handle children and help 00:11:04.409 --> 00:11:11.710 them through changes in family. But at the time, 00:11:11.809 --> 00:11:15.929 I think they just happened to be fairly wise 00:11:15.929 --> 00:11:19.610 and enlightened on this. And they treated each 00:11:19.610 --> 00:11:21.889 other well, and they never put us in the middle 00:11:21.889 --> 00:11:25.960 of their split, right? There was open lines of 00:11:25.960 --> 00:11:28.679 communications always. And I think that helped 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:32.179 us a lot. And one of the things they were always 00:11:32.179 --> 00:11:35.879 telling us was to look at the opportunities that 00:11:35.879 --> 00:11:40.539 we had by having this, you know, divided life. 00:11:40.899 --> 00:11:45.039 And so both my sister and I, I feel we're able 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:47.860 to be a little more aware. And of course, when 00:11:47.860 --> 00:11:51.000 we were young, we took it for granted. a lot 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:54.080 of things for granted, but it wasn't completely 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:56.940 lost on us. And I don't feel like either of us 00:11:56.940 --> 00:12:03.080 ever got sucked into some resentment, you know, 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:06.139 cycle. I mean, it's not to say that we were, 00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:09.320 you know, just rainbows and sunshine all the 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:15.600 time, but it did not overtake us. You know, our 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:18.610 different circumstances did not. overtake us 00:12:18.610 --> 00:12:22.330 or define us. In fact, I just had my 40th high 00:12:22.330 --> 00:12:27.409 school reunion a couple of weeks ago, and I was 00:12:27.409 --> 00:12:30.529 having this conversation. A group of us were 00:12:30.529 --> 00:12:33.269 talking, and my school was pretty small, less 00:12:33.269 --> 00:12:34.809 than 100 people in the class, and we were very 00:12:34.809 --> 00:12:36.509 close. We were in school together a long time, 00:12:36.629 --> 00:12:40.210 but we're coming together as adults, and we're 00:12:40.210 --> 00:12:46.460 talking about how You know, when you're growing 00:12:46.460 --> 00:12:48.799 up, you're really not clued in to what some of 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:50.779 your friends and classmates are going through. 00:12:50.940 --> 00:12:53.000 You're just focused on what's happening at school 00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:55.679 or what's happening on the sports field or in 00:12:55.679 --> 00:12:58.419 the parking lot or, you know, the drive -thru. 00:12:59.220 --> 00:13:04.039 And we kind of went around and everybody was 00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:06.399 saying, well, she was dealing with her sick mother 00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:09.259 and he was dealing with the fact that his father 00:13:09.259 --> 00:13:13.299 had died. And, you know, like everybody had these 00:13:13.299 --> 00:13:18.759 things. And I said, and I was gone four months 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:22.559 a year because I would go up to Colorado. And 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:27.419 people, again, people I've known a long time, 00:13:27.860 --> 00:13:33.759 since I was 10 years old, didn't know, didn't 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:38.879 realize that I spent a quarter of my life, a 00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:42.360 third of my life in another state while we were. 00:13:42.840 --> 00:13:45.139 together all the time. Now, obviously my close, 00:13:45.179 --> 00:13:48.080 close friends knew, right. But, you know, people 00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:51.200 I was in class with every day, you know, I rode 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:53.820 the school bus with, and, you know, you, you 00:13:53.820 --> 00:13:59.940 were what? So to me, that was an interesting 00:13:59.940 --> 00:14:05.159 little window. I think it's mostly shows us how 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:10.059 self -concerned we all are, particularly when 00:14:10.059 --> 00:14:14.049 we're young. That's not a selfish thing. It's 00:14:14.049 --> 00:14:16.090 just the way it is. You know, you're looking 00:14:16.090 --> 00:14:21.269 out for your own, you know, your own life. But 00:14:21.269 --> 00:14:25.070 then those that can kind of stay with you and 00:14:25.070 --> 00:14:28.029 you wouldn't even realize that someone that you 00:14:28.029 --> 00:14:30.370 thought you knew really well at the time may 00:14:30.370 --> 00:14:32.649 have had some different circumstances or struggles 00:14:32.649 --> 00:14:37.210 or challenges that were driving a lot of their 00:14:37.210 --> 00:14:40.059 behavior and decision making. It reminds me of 00:14:40.059 --> 00:14:42.059 that quote, you know, be kind. You never know 00:14:42.059 --> 00:14:43.960 the battle that others are fighting. And it's 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:45.539 very, very true. I mean, you look at, you know, 00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:48.259 road rage, for example, someone made a comment 00:14:48.259 --> 00:14:50.639 on the show a while ago and they said the problem 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:54.379 with a lot of modern society is that water boils 00:14:54.379 --> 00:14:57.080 at 212 degrees and a lot of people are walking 00:14:57.080 --> 00:15:01.860 around at 211. I think it's very true. Yes. Yes. 00:15:03.359 --> 00:15:05.860 Absolutely. Well, just one more, Aaron, this 00:15:05.860 --> 00:15:08.019 might be a kind of, you know, a different response 00:15:08.019 --> 00:15:10.779 to this because you were so, like you said, your 00:15:10.779 --> 00:15:12.539 parents had this good relationship. You spent 00:15:12.539 --> 00:15:15.399 the summer with your mom. A lot of people that 00:15:15.399 --> 00:15:18.539 have that fracture in their upbringing, there's 00:15:18.539 --> 00:15:21.159 that subconscious feeling of why wasn't I good 00:15:21.159 --> 00:15:24.720 enough for my parent to still be here, to not 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:27.379 drink, whatever the thing is. Did that factor 00:15:27.379 --> 00:15:29.840 in subconsciously with you or was it bolstered 00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:31.559 because of the quality time you were having with 00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:36.100 your mom in the summer? Well, I knew intellectually 00:15:36.100 --> 00:15:42.960 I was loved and wanted because we did have this 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:48.460 ongoing relationship. And because my day to day, 00:15:48.620 --> 00:15:52.779 I was safe. I was protected. Again, I had great 00:15:52.779 --> 00:16:00.639 friends. But yeah, underneath it, you just wonder. 00:16:01.370 --> 00:16:04.610 I don't think it ever quite goes away. You know, 00:16:04.669 --> 00:16:12.470 why wasn't it? Why wasn't I enough? And I've 00:16:12.470 --> 00:16:15.090 had mountains and mountains of therapy ever since 00:16:15.090 --> 00:16:19.669 I was young. And, you know, it's a question that 00:16:19.669 --> 00:16:23.090 kind of like much of my life, it's a question 00:16:23.090 --> 00:16:28.279 that doesn't ever have. resolution it's more 00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:30.480 of a feeling and i just accept it as a feeling 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:39.139 and then when my son died um i i did feel like 00:16:39.139 --> 00:16:46.860 you know my i wasn't the right kid for my mom 00:16:46.860 --> 00:16:51.399 to hang around and i wasn't the right mom for 00:16:51.399 --> 00:16:56.909 my kid to hang around Just to throw it all out 00:16:56.909 --> 00:17:00.070 there. Yeah. I mean, again, like you said, on 00:17:00.070 --> 00:17:02.330 the intellectual point of view, it doesn't make 00:17:02.330 --> 00:17:04.549 sense. But from the subconscious point that a 00:17:04.549 --> 00:17:07.430 lot of people are trying to access, it's justified 00:17:07.430 --> 00:17:10.509 in that kind of distorted thinking. So how did 00:17:10.509 --> 00:17:12.210 you, while we're on that topic, before we kind 00:17:12.210 --> 00:17:16.289 of progress to the story itself, with that particular 00:17:16.289 --> 00:17:18.670 element, how were you able to resolve that in 00:17:18.670 --> 00:17:23.150 your own mind? Well, there's no resolution. You 00:17:23.150 --> 00:17:27.549 learn to live with it. And when I was younger, 00:17:27.849 --> 00:17:31.710 for a lot of, I mean, I say younger, basically 00:17:31.710 --> 00:17:39.609 into my 40s, huge chip on my shoulder, huge need 00:17:39.609 --> 00:17:43.549 to prove no one was paying attention to me, but 00:17:43.549 --> 00:17:45.509 I felt like everybody was paying attention to 00:17:45.509 --> 00:17:48.710 me and watching and, you know, making sure I 00:17:48.710 --> 00:17:54.440 measured up. And I was very motivated by that. 00:17:54.480 --> 00:18:03.400 And I tried to make it a productive anger. I've 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:09.359 had a great career. I have had, I've created 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:15.700 the life that I want. And I feel very empowered 00:18:15.700 --> 00:18:25.359 and capable of. Of creating the existence and 00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:31.339 the family and the mood, not controlling my moods, 00:18:31.339 --> 00:18:33.859 but just like the vibe that I want in my life. 00:18:33.900 --> 00:18:37.779 And that is forward looking. That is open to 00:18:37.779 --> 00:18:44.859 change. That is curious. Hopefully self -aware. 00:18:46.420 --> 00:18:48.480 It's not that I don't have negative thoughts 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:55.099 because I surely do. But I try and hear what 00:18:55.099 --> 00:18:59.940 they're telling me and not linger on them and 00:18:59.940 --> 00:19:06.619 try and make those insecurities and those doubts, 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:16.779 you know, motivation and fodder for growth. Beautiful. 00:19:17.549 --> 00:19:20.150 Well, I want to go back to kind of the high school 00:19:20.150 --> 00:19:23.029 age and we'll walk through adulthood then. When 00:19:23.029 --> 00:19:25.089 you were in school, firstly, what were you doing 00:19:25.089 --> 00:19:28.930 and playing as far as sports and exercise? Well, 00:19:28.950 --> 00:19:35.430 so I had, when I was like elementary school and 00:19:35.430 --> 00:19:43.490 junior high, I loved horses and I also English 00:19:43.490 --> 00:19:48.349 and Western writing. I wrote English in Louisiana 00:19:48.349 --> 00:19:53.150 and I wrote Western in Colorado. And I, I, I 00:19:53.150 --> 00:19:59.029 did ballet for a while and loved dancing. Should 00:19:59.029 --> 00:20:02.230 have stuck with it. You know, that's what happens. 00:20:02.589 --> 00:20:10.990 Got distracted. And I loved to ski, which makes 00:20:10.990 --> 00:20:15.470 sense in the Colorado part, but is not, wasn't 00:20:15.470 --> 00:20:20.529 as common for. a Louisiana girl. And it was a, 00:20:20.529 --> 00:20:25.250 that was a really, I didn't reckon that I did 00:20:25.250 --> 00:20:27.829 not recognize at the time, but, but now that 00:20:27.829 --> 00:20:30.089 I'm an adult, you know, the sensation of skiing, 00:20:30.269 --> 00:20:38.309 um, is it's so powerful and, and, um, uh, the 00:20:38.309 --> 00:20:42.109 freedom that, cause I'm not necessarily a risk 00:20:42.109 --> 00:20:49.680 taker. I'm not a daredevil. But I found so much 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:55.339 freedom in skiing that I could sort of tap into 00:20:55.339 --> 00:21:00.799 that in my own way. And then when I got to high 00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:05.900 school, because this was South Louisiana in the 00:21:05.900 --> 00:21:11.680 80s, I was a cheerleader and I loved it. And 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:18.509 that sort of... um positive encouraging um active 00:21:18.509 --> 00:21:23.210 persona i think has followed me through uh you 00:21:23.210 --> 00:21:26.710 know it's not that everything has to be rah -rah 00:21:26.710 --> 00:21:31.890 but like it kind of it it's my personality to 00:21:31.890 --> 00:21:35.980 to try and be encouraging and um and i liked 00:21:35.980 --> 00:21:40.180 it because i had a sort of minor leadership role 00:21:40.180 --> 00:21:45.519 at the school and you know it great friendships 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:50.500 and so yeah it's funny i just wrote my second 00:21:50.500 --> 00:21:52.259 book the end of last year and there's this one 00:21:52.259 --> 00:21:55.660 scene where he reflects on skiing and it's up 00:21:55.660 --> 00:21:57.519 you know drawing from my own experiences but 00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:00.819 there is something really soul cleansing about 00:22:00.819 --> 00:22:02.759 standing at the top of a mountain, whether it's 00:22:02.759 --> 00:22:04.799 the actual brightness of the sun on the snow 00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:07.279 itself, or whether it's the fact that you literally 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:09.740 get to navigate your way down. You don't need 00:22:09.740 --> 00:22:11.619 a ski boat. You don't need a tennis partner. 00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:14.119 It's just you and, you know, the topography. 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:17.279 So I found that extremely healing, but I'd only 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:19.779 go once, you know, for a week, you know, maybe 00:22:19.779 --> 00:22:22.700 if I was lucky once a year, but what's interesting 00:22:22.700 --> 00:22:25.039 too, I grew up on a farm and that was a horse 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:27.359 veterinary surgeon. So I grew up around horses. 00:22:27.539 --> 00:22:29.920 So talk to me about that when you reflect back 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:33.220 now, how cathartic was the equine side of your 00:22:33.220 --> 00:22:44.579 upbringing? So my experience with horses, I think 00:22:44.579 --> 00:22:48.019 kind of mirrors my life. I did a little bit of 00:22:48.019 --> 00:22:54.309 everything and that's good and bad. on one hand 00:22:54.309 --> 00:22:59.009 i was in a show ring with walking horses a lot 00:22:59.009 --> 00:23:04.710 of discipline um on another hand i tried hunter 00:23:04.710 --> 00:23:12.150 jumper um i also worked at a dude ranch in their 00:23:12.150 --> 00:23:17.529 day camp you know putting six -year -olds into 00:23:17.529 --> 00:23:23.859 saddles and taking them on trail rides and So, 00:23:23.859 --> 00:23:27.480 and then my grandparents in Texas had quarter 00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:30.279 horses that I would just throw myself on the 00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:32.660 back and wander around the pastures and try not 00:23:32.660 --> 00:23:36.660 to step in gopher holes, right? So it really 00:23:36.660 --> 00:23:46.619 was a patchwork. And so I craved, I wanted horses 00:23:46.619 --> 00:23:51.130 in my life every day. I wanted to. be on a farm 00:23:51.130 --> 00:23:56.009 or have access to a farm or have access to training 00:23:56.009 --> 00:24:00.529 that, you know, like, I think I wanted that routine 00:24:00.529 --> 00:24:03.390 and discipline and just the circumstances of 00:24:03.390 --> 00:24:05.910 my life and kind of how all the different machinery 00:24:05.910 --> 00:24:10.430 was working. It, it, it, I was not able to build 00:24:10.430 --> 00:24:14.269 horses into my life the way I wanted as a, as 00:24:14.269 --> 00:24:19.900 a young person. However, I think you can probably 00:24:19.900 --> 00:24:24.160 see how I found a way to put horses in my life 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:28.240 wherever I could. And I think one of the most 00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:33.059 incredible things is not necessarily what I did 00:24:33.059 --> 00:24:35.380 with it or didn't do with it. I mean, I just 00:24:35.380 --> 00:24:37.240 like the animals. I just like being around them. 00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:42.059 But when my oldest was in, when she was like 00:24:42.059 --> 00:24:46.400 10, 11 years old, she wanted to ride and we found 00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:51.420 a barn and She became really fixated, you know, 00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:53.539 horse girl, right? It's a thing. There's a reason 00:24:53.539 --> 00:24:59.140 it's a thing. And she would go, it was in our 00:24:59.140 --> 00:25:02.619 neighborhood where we live in the suburbs, but 00:25:02.619 --> 00:25:07.319 there happens to be like this old ranch right 00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:10.910 in the middle of town. And she would go. Just 00:25:10.910 --> 00:25:13.029 to be with the horses, she would go to muck and 00:25:13.029 --> 00:25:17.170 she would go to clean up and feed and, and take 00:25:17.170 --> 00:25:21.069 care of them just to be around them. And it really 00:25:21.069 --> 00:25:27.849 nurtured her and it nurtured me to see her doing 00:25:27.849 --> 00:25:33.529 that. And she's, she's 27 now, but she has come 00:25:33.529 --> 00:25:36.529 back around to horses, you know, kind of got 00:25:36.529 --> 00:25:41.329 distracted, you know, animals. Animals touch 00:25:41.329 --> 00:25:49.089 us on different levels than people. And I think 00:25:49.089 --> 00:25:51.890 that particularly if you're growing and evolving 00:25:51.890 --> 00:25:55.269 or struggling, animals can reach you in ways 00:25:55.269 --> 00:26:01.450 that other activities, other passions cannot. 00:26:01.670 --> 00:26:07.710 And horses are... are right up there it's a shame 00:26:07.710 --> 00:26:11.430 more people don't have access to horses not just 00:26:11.430 --> 00:26:15.450 the riding part but just the being around them 00:26:15.450 --> 00:26:19.710 it's very sensory you know yeah i had uh have 00:26:19.710 --> 00:26:23.490 you ever heard of buck branneman he's uh he's 00:26:23.490 --> 00:26:26.029 basically the guy that they wrote the horse whisperer 00:26:26.029 --> 00:26:31.250 about um he was he and his brother were Their 00:26:31.250 --> 00:26:33.490 dad basically lived vicariously through them. 00:26:33.549 --> 00:26:38.250 They became a few old 1950s cereal commercials. 00:26:38.309 --> 00:26:39.950 They'd have a couple of kids lassoing something. 00:26:39.990 --> 00:26:43.549 That was the kids. Poodle tricks for those children 00:26:43.549 --> 00:26:47.519 and very abusive upbringing. And he kind of got 00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:49.579 mentored by a local, I think it was sheriff, 00:26:49.700 --> 00:26:53.059 law enforcement officer and took him onto a ranch. 00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:55.880 And then he just had this amazing relationship 00:26:55.880 --> 00:26:57.660 with horses that, you know, he still teaches 00:26:57.660 --> 00:27:00.079 to this day. But I remember him saying that they 00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:02.380 are a mirror to our own soul, you know, and you 00:27:02.380 --> 00:27:05.160 can, you know, for horses or, you know, on edge, 00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:07.119 it's probably because you are on edge. And I 00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:09.079 remember, you know, that even on the farm, I 00:27:09.079 --> 00:27:12.819 didn't ride. My sister was really into horses. 00:27:12.859 --> 00:27:14.619 I would just kind of ride whichever horse was 00:27:14.619 --> 00:27:17.089 available. If you've ever seen one of those monkeys 00:27:17.089 --> 00:27:19.170 riding greyhounds, that's kind of what I look 00:27:19.170 --> 00:27:21.710 like on the back of a horse. But I was brave, 00:27:21.809 --> 00:27:24.769 but not exactly skilled. But it was the same 00:27:24.769 --> 00:27:27.789 thing. I remember as a kid, you have to be calm 00:27:27.789 --> 00:27:30.990 with them. And so I can see why they are so healing 00:27:30.990 --> 00:27:33.569 now. And a lot of these retreats that take first 00:27:33.569 --> 00:27:35.390 responders and military members and other people 00:27:35.390 --> 00:27:39.529 on these equine trips, because you literally 00:27:39.529 --> 00:27:42.230 are being shown yourself and the horse responds 00:27:42.230 --> 00:27:44.210 the way you do. And the more you calm yourself. 00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:46.700 the stronger the bomb that comes with the horse. 00:27:47.539 --> 00:27:53.680 And when you're riding, it's literally a viewpoint 00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:56.440 that you don't get when you're walking around. 00:27:56.660 --> 00:27:59.880 And don't we all need different viewpoints? Absolutely. 00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:04.359 Right? Different perspectives. 100%. All right. 00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:06.000 Well, then going back again to the high school, 00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:08.980 while you were progressing through towards graduation, 00:28:09.500 --> 00:28:12.599 what were you dreaming of as far as a occupation? 00:28:15.449 --> 00:28:23.630 I didn't know. My parents were great in the sense 00:28:23.630 --> 00:28:26.049 that they're like, yeah, just it's wide open. 00:28:26.089 --> 00:28:28.529 As long as you can support yourself, that's fine. 00:28:29.529 --> 00:28:32.410 I had a lot of encouragement because even though 00:28:32.410 --> 00:28:34.750 I did go back and forth between Louisiana and 00:28:34.750 --> 00:28:43.480 Colorado, you know, I was from a town at a. time 00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:48.720 where, um, because the university was literally 00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:54.119 in our backyard, um, a lot of people stayed in, 00:28:54.220 --> 00:28:59.099 in Baton Rouge. And, and I think because my mother, 00:28:59.140 --> 00:29:03.220 I know because my mother had moved away, she's 00:29:03.220 --> 00:29:06.599 like, you've, you've got to go away, you know, 00:29:06.599 --> 00:29:08.799 at least for a little while you need to experience 00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:12.569 something else. And I think she was. Again, a 00:29:12.569 --> 00:29:16.589 little ahead of her time compared to her peers 00:29:16.589 --> 00:29:21.309 on that. And so that is the message I got. Wasn't 00:29:21.309 --> 00:29:30.650 so much what you do. It was, you know, changing 00:29:30.650 --> 00:29:33.289 perspective, changing that scenery, seeing what 00:29:33.289 --> 00:29:37.789 it's like to live somewhere else. And so I did 00:29:37.789 --> 00:29:45.369 go to college in my hometown. to LSU. And, and 00:29:45.369 --> 00:29:51.069 then I left, I graduated on a Friday and I moved 00:29:51.069 --> 00:29:54.150 to Washington on Sunday and I started a new job 00:29:54.150 --> 00:29:57.289 up here on Monday. So I didn't take any time 00:29:57.289 --> 00:30:01.470 off, which by the way, I don't recommend, but 00:30:01.470 --> 00:30:07.849 I had a job and I was a secretary and it was 00:30:07.849 --> 00:30:11.380 really just about You know, being in the workforce 00:30:11.380 --> 00:30:18.799 and getting some skills and learning how to navigate 00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:23.200 on my own. And I had a friend that I'd known 00:30:23.200 --> 00:30:27.099 since I was very young who who joined me and 00:30:27.099 --> 00:30:29.640 we lived together. So that was great. And she 00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:32.700 was taking the same path. You know, she was working 00:30:32.700 --> 00:30:36.160 in an office doing whatever needed to be done. 00:30:36.299 --> 00:30:42.339 And I. I did major in English, but I studied 00:30:42.339 --> 00:30:47.319 mostly literature, not writing. Obviously, writing 00:30:47.319 --> 00:30:52.880 is a part of that degree, no matter what. But 00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:58.140 I kind of stumbled into public relations. I didn't 00:30:58.140 --> 00:31:04.240 even really know what it was. And worked for 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:07.900 a... public relations agency, you know, a group 00:31:07.900 --> 00:31:12.559 of consultants that is, you know, helping clients 00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:16.700 on all kinds of issues. And I was a secretary 00:31:16.700 --> 00:31:20.980 type, but so, you know, a lot of administration, 00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:23.240 a lot of keep track of people. This is literally 00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:24.940 in the days where you're answering phones for 00:31:24.940 --> 00:31:27.259 other people. Like there was no voicemail, you 00:31:27.259 --> 00:31:30.630 know, so a call would come in and I would. answer 00:31:30.630 --> 00:31:32.890 their line and take a message for them and put 00:31:32.890 --> 00:31:35.009 it on a pink slip of paper and put it on their 00:31:35.009 --> 00:31:44.569 desk. A lot of filing. But the field really suited 00:31:44.569 --> 00:31:49.069 me and I was lucky to be able to evolve into 00:31:49.069 --> 00:31:52.750 the professional side of things and to work with 00:31:52.750 --> 00:31:56.009 folks who gave me those opportunities. So I started 00:31:56.009 --> 00:32:01.880 learning about communications programs. and client 00:32:01.880 --> 00:32:08.240 service, kept working on my writing and planning 00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:12.220 events and working with media and things like 00:32:12.220 --> 00:32:18.380 that. And I ended up hitting a pretty high point 00:32:18.380 --> 00:32:22.380 working at a very large international agency, 00:32:22.539 --> 00:32:27.000 heading a practice area. And I think the communications 00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:31.079 happens to be You know, I didn't know it when 00:32:31.079 --> 00:32:33.400 I was in high school or college or even first 00:32:33.400 --> 00:32:35.960 starting out, but it's my field. You know, I 00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:38.140 mean, it's something I feel good about. It's 00:32:38.140 --> 00:32:42.099 something I feel like I can do well. It's challenging, 00:32:42.200 --> 00:32:47.299 but not in an overwhelming way. And I really 00:32:47.299 --> 00:32:50.640 like consulting, helping other people find their 00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:53.240 story, shape their story, make sure it's doing 00:32:53.240 --> 00:32:56.829 what they want it to. It's really interesting. 00:32:56.869 --> 00:32:58.470 I don't think I've talked to anyone in public 00:32:58.470 --> 00:33:01.890 relations specifically, but there is a landscape 00:33:01.890 --> 00:33:07.210 of PR out there from someone who is trusted by 00:33:07.210 --> 00:33:09.529 everyone and tells their story all the way through 00:33:09.529 --> 00:33:11.769 to the spin doctor on the other side and everything 00:33:11.769 --> 00:33:15.109 in between. Without loading the question, what 00:33:15.109 --> 00:33:21.059 have you seen as far as the world of PR? What 00:33:21.059 --> 00:33:23.660 is your perspective on the value of someone actually 00:33:23.660 --> 00:33:26.160 simply being true to themselves in that message? 00:33:28.140 --> 00:33:31.440 I don't think that's loaded at all. I think you're 00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:36.119 absolutely right. There are people who are in 00:33:36.119 --> 00:33:42.900 it to manufacture answers, image, reputation. 00:33:46.740 --> 00:33:51.559 That has never been my... strain of communications. 00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:56.160 And, you know, without getting too much into 00:33:56.160 --> 00:33:59.640 the policy side of things, living and working 00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:03.539 in Washington, D .C., a lot of big decisions 00:34:03.539 --> 00:34:06.339 are made every day. A lot of big mistakes are 00:34:06.339 --> 00:34:10.739 made every day. And there's a lot on the line 00:34:10.739 --> 00:34:13.920 in front of Congress and the regulatory agencies 00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:18.250 and the White House, whoever's in charge. because 00:34:18.250 --> 00:34:22.389 again i've been here 40 years you see everything 00:34:22.389 --> 00:34:32.250 and i can tell you that um that honesty and transparency 00:34:32.250 --> 00:34:41.829 and accountability always win always you might 00:34:41.829 --> 00:34:45.150 get some knocks on the chin particularly if you're 00:34:45.150 --> 00:34:49.530 having to um Give your side of the story in a 00:34:49.530 --> 00:34:55.610 difficult or challenging situation. But the bigger 00:34:55.610 --> 00:34:59.789 crisis is almost always from somebody who tries 00:34:59.789 --> 00:35:04.070 to cover up, push aside or ignore. And I don't 00:35:04.070 --> 00:35:06.510 care what you're talking about. I don't care 00:35:06.510 --> 00:35:08.789 if it's policy. I don't care if it's a product. 00:35:08.989 --> 00:35:11.170 I don't care if it's a company you're trying 00:35:11.170 --> 00:35:17.579 to sell more shares of. You have to. you have 00:35:17.579 --> 00:35:23.260 to find that core truth. And sometimes that can 00:35:23.260 --> 00:35:26.980 sound to the outside, like you're spinning, but 00:35:26.980 --> 00:35:31.500 if it's the truth, it's not spin, you know? And, 00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:41.199 and I think those fundamentals made a huge difference 00:35:41.199 --> 00:35:47.860 to me not to jump too far ahead, but Those fundamentals 00:35:47.860 --> 00:35:53.360 of effective communications helped me from the 00:35:53.360 --> 00:35:56.780 moment I learned my son died. And they shaped 00:35:56.780 --> 00:36:00.360 the way that I have grieved in my healing process. 00:36:01.239 --> 00:36:07.300 And what I'm talking about is he died by suicide. 00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:11.599 The first decision we had to make is, are we 00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:15.400 going to be honest about cause of death? suicide 00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:18.519 is something people don't talk about. Suicide 00:36:18.519 --> 00:36:22.019 is something that is very taboo. It's mysterious. 00:36:23.099 --> 00:36:27.760 And I completely understand, particularly in 00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:32.820 those early moments and days, why if you've lost 00:36:32.820 --> 00:36:38.260 someone to suicide, you shut down so much. You 00:36:38.260 --> 00:36:40.280 can't make a decision. So how can you make a 00:36:40.280 --> 00:36:42.559 big, important decision? But my communications 00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:47.309 training, kicked in and I realized people have 00:36:47.309 --> 00:36:50.329 questions whether I want to answer them or not. 00:36:52.429 --> 00:36:55.750 And this is my story. This is going to be the 00:36:55.750 --> 00:37:00.250 story of the rest of my life. My 21 year old 00:37:00.250 --> 00:37:08.829 son who was adored, beloved, easygoing, had tons 00:37:08.829 --> 00:37:16.000 of friends, smart, active, He killed himself. 00:37:19.219 --> 00:37:25.920 It's up to me to tell that story. And the only 00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:32.139 way that I can grow and heal and continue going 00:37:32.139 --> 00:37:36.119 on is to be completely honest about that story. 00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:42.579 And so from day one, it was part of his obituary. 00:37:43.099 --> 00:37:46.360 It was every conversation we had. And I think 00:37:46.360 --> 00:37:49.300 that it was because deep in my brain, I knew 00:37:49.300 --> 00:37:55.300 that to be anything less than honest was to create 00:37:55.300 --> 00:37:58.480 more problems for myself and more stress for 00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:03.380 my family. We did meet as a family to talk about 00:38:03.380 --> 00:38:06.340 this. It was a decision we made together. That's 00:38:06.340 --> 00:38:09.340 really important. But we all knew absolutely 00:38:09.340 --> 00:38:13.050 that that's what we were going to do. And I think 00:38:13.050 --> 00:38:17.050 it has really helped us. Well, we'll get to, 00:38:17.050 --> 00:38:19.469 you know, Charlie and the suicide in a moment. 00:38:19.489 --> 00:38:21.969 We're just going back to the transparency, the 00:38:21.969 --> 00:38:24.949 honesty. I think this is such an important factor 00:38:24.949 --> 00:38:27.230 that obviously extends into, I mean, I think 00:38:27.230 --> 00:38:30.050 you want to talk about stigma. Suicide is bad. 00:38:30.730 --> 00:38:33.230 Overdose, even worse. Like, God forbid, you know, 00:38:33.269 --> 00:38:35.170 your child loses their life to fentanyl, and 00:38:35.170 --> 00:38:36.969 that's super hush -hush. And the same in the 00:38:36.969 --> 00:38:40.599 fire service. i truly believe that there's a 00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:43.059 renaissance happening of kindness compassion 00:38:43.059 --> 00:38:46.340 honesty because i think the pendulum has swung 00:38:46.340 --> 00:38:49.219 so far the wrong way for so many years and i 00:38:49.219 --> 00:38:51.500 think that is now you know one of the reasons 00:38:51.500 --> 00:38:53.579 the contributing factors to some of the guilt 00:38:53.579 --> 00:38:55.969 and the shame that these people that are struggling 00:38:55.969 --> 00:38:58.829 with that we lose because of this dishonesty 00:38:58.829 --> 00:39:02.309 that's rewarded at the moment, rather than, like 00:39:02.309 --> 00:39:04.949 you said, being transparent for it to be okay 00:39:04.949 --> 00:39:07.309 to talk about the things that are bothering you, 00:39:07.349 --> 00:39:09.010 to talk about the voices that you're hearing 00:39:09.010 --> 00:39:11.329 in your head, to talk about the fact that you 00:39:11.329 --> 00:39:13.530 can't put down whatever substance, whatever the 00:39:13.530 --> 00:39:17.469 person's struggle is. And so, you know, I really 00:39:17.469 --> 00:39:20.210 hope that to honor all the Charlies in the world 00:39:20.210 --> 00:39:23.039 that this swing back the other way. will allow 00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:25.260 people to be more vulnerable and open up. And 00:39:25.260 --> 00:39:29.860 so we don't lose them between the cracks. Absolutely. 00:39:29.940 --> 00:39:34.960 And I have great sympathy. I think every human 00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:45.239 can understand how hard it is to admit or be 00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:48.719 forthcoming or be fully honest about their pain. 00:39:50.579 --> 00:39:56.639 No matter. who you are or what your pain is about 00:39:56.639 --> 00:40:02.440 or where it comes from, the very nature of that 00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:06.679 pain, particularly if there's mental illness 00:40:06.679 --> 00:40:11.199 involved, your brain is telling you, keep it 00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:15.420 to yourself. This is your problem. No one else 00:40:15.420 --> 00:40:17.880 needs to know. There's nothing that can be done. 00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:27.019 it turns on you and so so i understand i know 00:40:27.019 --> 00:40:33.380 how hard it is to just say man you wouldn't believe 00:40:33.380 --> 00:40:38.199 the things that are going on in my head but i 00:40:38.199 --> 00:40:43.519 have yet to encounter someone who has not been 00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:53.380 open or generous or even, you know, appreciative 00:40:53.380 --> 00:40:58.280 of that type of vulnerability. And also, and 00:40:58.280 --> 00:41:03.840 maybe this is an age thing, I'm almost 60. I'm 00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:07.019 like, well, if they don't react in a way that's 00:41:07.019 --> 00:41:12.059 gentle and welcoming, then I really don't want 00:41:12.059 --> 00:41:13.579 to have anything to do with them. And I don't 00:41:13.579 --> 00:41:16.460 care what they say. If they say something hurtful 00:41:16.460 --> 00:41:19.780 or critical, I'm like, That reflects on them, 00:41:19.820 --> 00:41:22.679 not me. I couldn't have said that in my 30s. 00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:24.500 I certainly couldn't have said that when I was 00:41:24.500 --> 00:41:31.239 a teenager or in my 20s. But, you know, I really 00:41:31.239 --> 00:41:34.980 feel that as a, you know, more mature adult that 00:41:34.980 --> 00:41:42.780 why wouldn't I tell people, you know, this is 00:41:42.780 --> 00:41:46.289 a hard day and this is why, you know. or my favorite 00:41:46.289 --> 00:41:49.409 expression is i i'm not doing people today just 00:41:49.409 --> 00:41:53.230 no people no people right well i've said i mean 00:41:53.230 --> 00:41:56.050 i think the other unspoken part of this is the 00:41:56.050 --> 00:41:57.829 people and i've seen this in the fire service 00:41:57.829 --> 00:42:00.010 the people that are like oh back in my day we 00:42:00.010 --> 00:42:01.869 just you know got on with it rubbed some dirt 00:42:01.869 --> 00:42:04.369 in there now i see it with the stands like oh 00:42:04.369 --> 00:42:07.869 you're hurting too it's still buried down there 00:42:07.869 --> 00:42:10.730 which is why you're having this response yeah 00:42:10.730 --> 00:42:15.539 100 I think the other thing as well, going back 00:42:15.539 --> 00:42:18.820 to, you know, even some of the less ethical practices 00:42:18.820 --> 00:42:21.519 in the business side, and I would say the same 00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:23.539 if you're a fire chief in a department and you 00:42:23.539 --> 00:42:25.679 keep losing people to suicide and cancer and 00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:28.519 heart disease and you're somewhat unfazed by 00:42:28.519 --> 00:42:30.579 it. I think it mirrors if you are the head of 00:42:30.579 --> 00:42:32.820 William Morris and millions of people die from 00:42:32.820 --> 00:42:35.340 your product or, you know, Purdue Pharma when 00:42:35.340 --> 00:42:37.559 OxyContin has created an opioid crisis that's 00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:40.300 taken 100 ,000 people every year and you still 00:42:40.300 --> 00:42:43.960 sleep in your bed. I think that's the unspoken 00:42:43.960 --> 00:42:46.739 mental health crisis. We always look at the people 00:42:46.739 --> 00:42:49.300 on the ground, whether it's our school kids and 00:42:49.300 --> 00:42:51.539 college kids or our first responders or our soldiers, 00:42:51.679 --> 00:42:55.039 but we forget to look at the top. Arguably, I 00:42:55.039 --> 00:42:57.920 would say several presidents recently would probably 00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:01.519 benefit from some mental health counseling. And 00:43:01.519 --> 00:43:04.059 again, some of the people at the helm of these 00:43:04.059 --> 00:43:07.159 organizations that profit from the deaths of 00:43:07.159 --> 00:43:10.340 Americans. It's a mental health crisis. You should 00:43:10.340 --> 00:43:12.679 not sleep well knowing people are dying from 00:43:12.679 --> 00:43:15.360 the thing that's paying your bills. You shouldn't. 00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:23.340 100 % agree. Yes. And when you're sitting where 00:43:23.340 --> 00:43:26.219 I'm sitting or where you're sitting and you have 00:43:26.219 --> 00:43:29.219 this perspective, the world does look a little 00:43:29.219 --> 00:43:32.199 different. You can see these leaders or these 00:43:32.199 --> 00:43:36.059 decision makers or these mouthpieces that get 00:43:36.059 --> 00:43:41.400 on the news and the way they rationalize or evade 00:43:41.400 --> 00:43:50.289 the reality that we know. You do wonder. what 00:43:50.289 --> 00:43:53.429 is going on in your brain that, that this is 00:43:53.429 --> 00:43:59.909 okay. And, you know, I, I, I wouldn't call myself 00:43:59.909 --> 00:44:03.570 a Pollyanna person. I at all, meaning everything 00:44:03.570 --> 00:44:06.869 has to be great and happy all the time, but I 00:44:06.869 --> 00:44:15.250 try to be realistic and, and if possible give 00:44:15.250 --> 00:44:21.230 grace only because It's better for me. It's actually 00:44:21.230 --> 00:44:28.449 selfish for me to try and be forgiving and I 00:44:28.449 --> 00:44:33.570 can't forgive everything. But when I see these 00:44:33.570 --> 00:44:37.309 leaders, you know, you mentioned these captains 00:44:37.309 --> 00:44:41.110 of industry and these politicians and you wonder 00:44:41.110 --> 00:44:46.730 how can you sleep at night? I think of a human 00:44:46.730 --> 00:44:53.510 who. must be in their own form of survival mode. 00:44:53.590 --> 00:44:56.489 And we all have our own form of survival mode 00:44:56.489 --> 00:45:05.769 for so long that, you know, I'm a big, I'm very 00:45:05.769 --> 00:45:08.730 much about what is the story you tell yourself 00:45:08.730 --> 00:45:10.889 in order to get through and how do you cope and 00:45:10.889 --> 00:45:15.730 how do you get, how do you carry on the story 00:45:15.730 --> 00:45:21.039 that they tell themselves? must be so distorted 00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:32.159 and so broken that they have lost touch with, 00:45:32.360 --> 00:45:38.800 you know, the human side of things. And it's 00:45:38.800 --> 00:45:40.940 tragic for those of us on the ground who are 00:45:40.940 --> 00:45:43.460 living and breathing, you know, the consequences 00:45:43.460 --> 00:45:47.760 of, of their delusion or their brokenness or 00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:54.860 their illness um but it's also i think you know 00:45:54.860 --> 00:45:58.360 what kind of world that we live in that people 00:45:58.360 --> 00:46:02.119 are feel that the best way for them to cope and 00:46:02.119 --> 00:46:04.340 get through is to lighten themselves and light 00:46:04.340 --> 00:46:06.480 everyone around them to the point where they 00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:09.420 can't recognize the truth yeah yeah i think then 00:46:09.420 --> 00:46:12.260 i think It will be great to see this conversation 00:46:12.260 --> 00:46:14.760 expanding because, I mean, I've said this. If, 00:46:14.860 --> 00:46:16.679 for example, I pick on my profession, you are 00:46:16.679 --> 00:46:18.840 a fire chief in charge of a department and you've 00:46:18.840 --> 00:46:21.739 lost a lot of people. Clearly, there's an issue. 00:46:21.880 --> 00:46:25.119 You've got two ways to go. You go the healing 00:46:25.119 --> 00:46:27.380 route and you do your own work and you start 00:46:27.380 --> 00:46:29.719 to refine that empathy and compassion and that 00:46:29.719 --> 00:46:32.940 leadership quality and advocate for your people. 00:46:32.980 --> 00:46:35.559 And you stay at the helm of that ship and everyone 00:46:35.559 --> 00:46:37.840 applauds the fact that you had the courage to 00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:41.980 do your own work. Or you step aside because you're 00:46:41.980 --> 00:46:45.460 not worthy because the leadership is more than 00:46:45.460 --> 00:46:47.880 happy to point at a police officer or a firefighter 00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:49.820 and say you're not fit for duty because you're 00:46:49.820 --> 00:46:51.559 struggling mentally and they take away their 00:46:51.559 --> 00:46:54.239 gun or take them off the line. But no one ever 00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:57.019 points up the chain. And there's many people 00:46:57.019 --> 00:46:59.000 that aren't fit for duty in leadership positions 00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:01.639 and they need to be taken aside. And again, hopefully 00:47:01.639 --> 00:47:04.239 they will heal and return to the position much 00:47:04.239 --> 00:47:08.070 better than they were before. But if you refuse 00:47:08.070 --> 00:47:11.070 to do the work, then you're not actually the 00:47:11.070 --> 00:47:12.849 right person for that job. I hate to say it, 00:47:12.889 --> 00:47:19.929 but you're not. I'm always fascinated by, and 00:47:19.929 --> 00:47:23.230 I would love to hear, I know people have studied 00:47:23.230 --> 00:47:29.989 this, the psychology behind holding on. So someone 00:47:29.989 --> 00:47:35.699 who may be not fit to be a leader. or maybe in 00:47:35.699 --> 00:47:38.480 over their head, maybe just wrong place, wrong 00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:41.599 time, or maybe the circumstances, they're perfectly 00:47:41.599 --> 00:47:44.820 fine, but the circumstances are way bigger than 00:47:44.820 --> 00:47:47.099 they're able to handle. And yet people hold on, 00:47:47.139 --> 00:47:50.539 they pass the buck, they push it down, you know, 00:47:50.539 --> 00:47:56.300 they deny everything to protect their job, protect 00:47:56.300 --> 00:48:00.000 their position, protect their standing, even 00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:04.910 their reputation to the point where they. either 00:48:04.910 --> 00:48:08.530 harm others or they end up harming themselves. 00:48:08.849 --> 00:48:14.530 I mean, you see it all the time. The business 00:48:14.530 --> 00:48:17.309 leader who will not step down from their company 00:48:17.309 --> 00:48:19.809 would rather run it to the ground than have somebody 00:48:19.809 --> 00:48:25.389 else in charge or the politician that won't step 00:48:25.389 --> 00:48:29.610 over, step aside so others can have their seat. 00:48:34.559 --> 00:48:39.099 Talk to me in 10 years. Talk to me if people 00:48:39.099 --> 00:48:41.000 are wanting something I have and I don't want 00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:43.619 to hold, I don't want to let go. I'm sure I would 00:48:43.619 --> 00:48:47.159 have all kinds of, you know, examples, much more 00:48:47.159 --> 00:48:51.960 personal and less important to the outside world. 00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:55.239 But this need to just hang on, you know, hang 00:48:55.239 --> 00:48:57.840 on to what it is that you have, that whatever 00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:00.719 you fought for or you think you deserve. And 00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:04.940 it's like, at what cost? At what cost? To yourself. 00:49:06.099 --> 00:49:09.639 Not just to others, but to yourself. I think 00:49:09.639 --> 00:49:13.619 it's that void. I really do. I mean, I wrote 00:49:13.619 --> 00:49:16.260 in my first book about an analogy that I kind 00:49:16.260 --> 00:49:17.800 of came up with inspired by something else. I 00:49:17.800 --> 00:49:19.599 won't bore you with too many details. But basically, 00:49:19.739 --> 00:49:22.800 we always talk about the cup being full and running 00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:25.019 over when it comes to mental health. But I thought, 00:49:25.099 --> 00:49:28.639 well, that doesn't really apply if you think 00:49:28.639 --> 00:49:30.659 about addiction. So I was like, what if it's 00:49:30.659 --> 00:49:33.119 the opposite? What if your bucket always needs 00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:37.239 to be full and holes get punched in from childhood 00:49:37.239 --> 00:49:41.440 trauma and the side effects of alcohol and all 00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:44.260 these different areas and now you're leaking? 00:49:44.940 --> 00:49:48.199 The bucket still needs to be full. So it's like, 00:49:48.239 --> 00:49:50.139 I don't care what it is, just fill me with something. 00:49:50.340 --> 00:49:53.860 So it could be gambling or porn or money, position, 00:49:54.099 --> 00:49:57.260 power, whatever the thing is. And only when you 00:49:57.260 --> 00:50:00.699 start doing the work do you plug the holes. And 00:50:00.699 --> 00:50:02.639 now all of a sudden you start, you know, you're 00:50:02.639 --> 00:50:05.199 not bleeding as much. So now more of the good 00:50:05.199 --> 00:50:07.699 part of you stays there and it takes less and 00:50:07.699 --> 00:50:09.460 less of the bad stuff. And eventually it's all 00:50:09.460 --> 00:50:11.880 good again. And I think that's the same with 00:50:11.880 --> 00:50:14.900 these positions. It's that identity that they've 00:50:14.900 --> 00:50:16.820 given themselves. If I just have more money, 00:50:16.860 --> 00:50:19.340 if I'm the CEO, if I'm the president, whatever 00:50:19.340 --> 00:50:24.500 it is, then I'll finally be okay. Versus let 00:50:24.500 --> 00:50:26.599 me find out why the hell I'm chasing this thing. 00:50:27.050 --> 00:50:30.170 Because it's never fulfilling. I cannot get enough. 00:50:30.349 --> 00:50:32.889 And you hear this with the millionaires and billionaires. 00:50:32.909 --> 00:50:35.309 It's never enough. So I think it's the same in 00:50:35.309 --> 00:50:38.110 these areas too. If they just had the courage 00:50:38.110 --> 00:50:40.829 to look in the mirror and say, I need to do some 00:50:40.829 --> 00:50:42.869 soul searching. I need to figure out what, as 00:50:42.869 --> 00:50:45.570 I always say, the P is beneath the mattress, 00:50:45.769 --> 00:50:48.070 the princess and the P analogy. What is that 00:50:48.070 --> 00:50:50.550 thing? And when they find that, that's when you 00:50:50.550 --> 00:50:53.269 hear of these CEOs that then sell everything. 00:50:53.980 --> 00:50:55.940 buy a bike and end up cycling around the world 00:50:55.940 --> 00:50:58.000 because there's so much more at peace now they 00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:00.159 realize they don't need any of that stuff anymore 00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:06.239 yep completely so all right well then let's get 00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:10.900 on the uh yeah that the kind of timeline of charlie 00:51:10.900 --> 00:51:15.380 himself so talk to me about you know who charlie 00:51:15.380 --> 00:51:17.400 is let's talk about him as a little boy and then 00:51:17.400 --> 00:51:19.440 we'll kind of walk through you know some of the 00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:21.239 things that you started noticing along the way 00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:31.000 Sure. So Charlie's my youngest child. I have 00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:42.920 three. He was born in 2001. And about six months 00:51:42.920 --> 00:51:52.210 before 9 -11. And I can't. say with any certainty, 00:51:52.469 --> 00:52:01.329 proof that I know for a fact that children born 00:52:01.329 --> 00:52:09.489 around 9 -11 have, there's consequences. But 00:52:09.489 --> 00:52:12.329 I can tell you that it changed the way I parented. 00:52:13.449 --> 00:52:16.230 And I had three children. All my children had 00:52:16.230 --> 00:52:18.989 the same. parenting experience and mine were 00:52:18.989 --> 00:52:29.630 back to back bam bam bam um and i was when he 00:52:29.630 --> 00:52:34.329 was six months old i was scheduled to fly to 00:52:34.329 --> 00:52:42.349 los angeles for a work meeting and was going 00:52:42.349 --> 00:52:46.690 to be on flight 77 that crashed into the pentagon 00:52:46.690 --> 00:52:51.650 and i was quite apprehensive about this trip 00:52:51.650 --> 00:52:56.349 i didn't want to leave my babies and i didn't 00:52:56.349 --> 00:53:00.929 want to go um the weekend before i left i wrote 00:53:00.929 --> 00:53:09.170 them goodbye letters i was really nervous made 00:53:09.170 --> 00:53:11.389 the cab on the way to the airport pull over on 00:53:11.389 --> 00:53:16.190 the side of the road and threw up But I had changed 00:53:16.190 --> 00:53:23.269 my flight last week of August from flight 77 00:53:23.269 --> 00:53:33.969 to a different flight. And so I flew out the 00:53:33.969 --> 00:53:42.139 day on September 10th. That flight ended up being 00:53:42.139 --> 00:53:45.260 delayed and I was grounded in Cincinnati and 00:53:45.260 --> 00:53:47.320 I had to do an overnight. And then I got on a 00:53:47.320 --> 00:53:49.400 plane the morning of September 11th and I was 00:53:49.400 --> 00:53:54.960 in the air when the terrorist attacks happened. 00:53:55.059 --> 00:53:58.119 And my flight, the pilot came on and said, we 00:53:58.119 --> 00:54:00.400 are grounding. There have been attacks on U .S. 00:54:00.440 --> 00:54:09.960 aviation. And I checked into a hotel room. Everything. 00:54:10.699 --> 00:54:12.679 we all remember that day we all remember how 00:54:12.679 --> 00:54:16.480 everything came to a standstill riveted by the 00:54:16.480 --> 00:54:20.980 tv turn on the tv they you know the buildings 00:54:20.980 --> 00:54:22.659 are falling there's all this there's a lot of 00:54:22.659 --> 00:54:29.659 uncertainty it's still the morning and i um they 00:54:29.659 --> 00:54:32.260 recognized the first person that was identified 00:54:32.260 --> 00:54:38.320 as a victim was a woman named barbara olson who 00:54:39.199 --> 00:54:42.980 was a commentator for CNN and she was the wife 00:54:42.980 --> 00:54:48.719 of the U .S. Solicitor General. And she had called 00:54:48.719 --> 00:54:53.260 her husband from the plane and she was going 00:54:53.260 --> 00:54:58.659 to attend the same meeting I was attending. So 00:54:58.659 --> 00:55:02.260 I saw her face. At that point, I just knew these 00:55:02.260 --> 00:55:04.280 terrible things were happening and I was on an 00:55:04.280 --> 00:55:05.559 airplane and I wanted to get off the airplane. 00:55:07.670 --> 00:55:12.710 But then I saw her face and I realized that that 00:55:12.710 --> 00:55:15.590 was the flight I was going to be on. And I had 00:55:15.590 --> 00:55:19.869 all my old records. And then I realized I knew 00:55:19.869 --> 00:55:27.650 other people on that plane. And so, you know, 00:55:27.650 --> 00:55:35.630 we all have our, you know, our own forms of trauma. 00:55:36.969 --> 00:55:43.510 It comes in a lot of ways. This felt in the, 00:55:43.510 --> 00:55:47.250 at the time indirect, you know, I wasn't hurt. 00:55:47.570 --> 00:55:52.750 I, I made for whatever reason, divine intervention 00:55:52.750 --> 00:56:01.690 changed my flight. But that close call absolutely 00:56:01.690 --> 00:56:06.030 did a number on me. While the whole country is 00:56:06.030 --> 00:56:08.449 also coming to terms with our own vulnerability. 00:56:10.570 --> 00:56:18.170 And it absolutely had to have affected the way 00:56:18.170 --> 00:56:20.849 that I parented all my children. I was hypervigilant. 00:56:21.150 --> 00:56:25.429 I developed a lot of separation anxiety, meaning 00:56:25.429 --> 00:56:29.309 I did not want to drive to another part of town 00:56:29.309 --> 00:56:33.510 to be away from them. became fearful of bridges 00:56:33.510 --> 00:56:37.050 i absolutely could not fly which had been a big 00:56:37.050 --> 00:56:43.510 part of my life before and um personal and business 00:56:43.510 --> 00:56:50.710 and and it it took me several years before i 00:56:50.710 --> 00:56:58.030 think i even realized that i was had so much 00:56:58.030 --> 00:57:02.039 anxiety and so much stress That, like, I wanted 00:57:02.039 --> 00:57:04.219 to just take care of it for myself. I'm like, 00:57:04.300 --> 00:57:07.360 everything's fine. Everything's fine. As long 00:57:07.360 --> 00:57:10.679 as the kids are happy. But I began to realize 00:57:10.679 --> 00:57:15.699 that my anxiety, and I actually had a therapist 00:57:15.699 --> 00:57:23.159 diagnose me with PTSD, that that was affecting 00:57:23.159 --> 00:57:27.179 my children. And particularly as they get older. 00:57:28.139 --> 00:57:29.960 They want more freedom. And by freedom, I mean 00:57:29.960 --> 00:57:32.960 going to someone's house for a play date, not 00:57:32.960 --> 00:57:36.519 traipsing across the country on a road trip. 00:57:36.619 --> 00:57:39.739 I mean, six years old and having a sleepover. 00:57:39.840 --> 00:57:43.000 Like I knew in my mind, there's nothing wrong 00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:45.980 with that. But boy, I did not want that. I was 00:57:45.980 --> 00:57:50.539 too afraid because I was just afraid. And so 00:57:50.539 --> 00:57:56.420 I got help. Really big fan of cognitive behavioral 00:57:56.420 --> 00:58:03.400 therapy. Highly recommend it. In the meantime, 00:58:03.539 --> 00:58:05.960 I'm working a big job. My husband's working a 00:58:05.960 --> 00:58:12.920 big job and our kids are doing what kids do, 00:58:13.079 --> 00:58:16.519 which is they were growing and cutting up and 00:58:16.519 --> 00:58:19.380 having fun and being a little pain in the ass. 00:58:19.480 --> 00:58:22.400 And, you know, all the things that parenting 00:58:22.400 --> 00:58:24.820 three children that were born in three years 00:58:24.820 --> 00:58:30.170 can do to a household. And Charlie was always 00:58:30.170 --> 00:58:34.130 our easygoing one. He had these two older sisters 00:58:34.130 --> 00:58:37.769 who just wore it all on their sleeve. You always 00:58:37.769 --> 00:58:41.349 knew what was going on. And Charlie was Mr. Laidback. 00:58:41.869 --> 00:58:47.630 He was quiet, but not shy. He, you know, wicked 00:58:47.630 --> 00:58:50.409 sense of humor, very impish. You know, he'd like 00:58:50.409 --> 00:58:54.650 to like kind of catch you off guard and, you 00:58:54.650 --> 00:58:58.050 know. sort of sneak up with you on with his humor. 00:58:58.550 --> 00:59:02.050 Um, but very clever. He's, he was a listener, 00:59:02.170 --> 00:59:04.210 you know, he was always paying attention to what 00:59:04.210 --> 00:59:08.590 was going on in the room, even if he wasn't injecting 00:59:08.590 --> 00:59:11.070 himself into it. And in fact, I think that became 00:59:11.070 --> 00:59:18.010 a core personality trait, which is he was kind 00:59:18.010 --> 00:59:21.710 of sitting and watching and taking it in. And, 00:59:21.889 --> 00:59:27.150 um, He let others have attention. He let others 00:59:27.150 --> 00:59:33.489 tell the funny stories or, you know, take the 00:59:33.489 --> 00:59:37.110 spotlight. And he seemed very comfortable with 00:59:37.110 --> 00:59:41.030 that. And when he spoke, he made it count, you 00:59:41.030 --> 00:59:48.309 know. And I think, you know, there's a lot of... 00:59:49.659 --> 00:59:51.980 retroactive diagnosis when you have a son who 00:59:51.980 --> 00:59:54.559 dies by suicide. And I think looking back that 00:59:54.559 --> 01:00:00.659 he didn't really, he let those traits take over 01:00:00.659 --> 01:00:03.500 a bit. He didn't learn to advocate for himself. 01:00:03.800 --> 01:00:08.920 He did not stand up for himself. He was sensitive 01:00:08.920 --> 01:00:14.380 about saying what he wanted and he needed. And 01:00:14.380 --> 01:00:17.139 I think that made it harder for him when he began 01:00:17.139 --> 01:00:20.380 to struggle with his mental health. Was he an 01:00:20.380 --> 01:00:22.480 empath when you say he was a listener? I mean, 01:00:22.480 --> 01:00:24.639 I think of an empath a lot when people say that. 01:00:25.840 --> 01:00:31.539 Yes, absolutely. He was the one who people went 01:00:31.539 --> 01:00:40.360 to. They just knew he was the steady mind, the 01:00:40.360 --> 01:00:45.920 steady voice. It's not that he didn't have opinions 01:00:45.920 --> 01:00:51.590 because he had plenty. um but people turned to 01:00:51.590 --> 01:00:57.130 him he also sought people out he i can't tell 01:00:57.130 --> 01:01:00.630 you how many we we heard a lot of this before 01:01:00.630 --> 01:01:04.429 he died but after he died we really heard a lot 01:01:04.429 --> 01:01:11.590 people would share charlie was the first one 01:01:11.590 --> 01:01:17.639 to approached me when he knew when you know after 01:01:17.639 --> 01:01:23.880 i got cut from the team charlie was the one who 01:01:23.880 --> 01:01:27.900 um introduced me to people so that i could have 01:01:27.900 --> 01:01:34.360 friends in on this class um charlie you know 01:01:34.360 --> 01:01:39.800 showed me around so that i wasn't alone and you 01:01:39.800 --> 01:01:44.039 know i mean his He at one point even had someone 01:01:44.039 --> 01:01:47.219 sleeping in his dorm room because that person 01:01:47.219 --> 01:01:50.539 had trouble getting up and going to class on 01:01:50.539 --> 01:01:54.679 time. And Charlie said, how about this? Sleep 01:01:54.679 --> 01:01:57.739 on my sofa and I will make sure you get up and 01:01:57.739 --> 01:02:03.340 go to class and you don't get demerits. And that 01:02:03.340 --> 01:02:05.840 was the kind of guy he was. He stepped between 01:02:05.840 --> 01:02:10.800 a bully and his target and took a. a a punch 01:02:10.800 --> 01:02:14.099 to the nose busted busted nose blood all over 01:02:14.099 --> 01:02:17.659 the place but there was a a bully going after 01:02:17.659 --> 01:02:20.599 a freshman and charlie didn't want that to happen 01:02:20.599 --> 01:02:25.719 like that's that's who he was and charlie went 01:02:25.719 --> 01:02:28.880 to boarding school have i got that right he did 01:02:28.880 --> 01:02:32.960 go to boarding school and you know there are 01:02:32.960 --> 01:02:36.239 a lot of great things about boarding school certainly 01:02:39.080 --> 01:02:42.900 independence, self -reliance. I think they have 01:02:42.900 --> 01:02:51.219 a great community that sometimes I feel like 01:02:51.219 --> 01:02:53.920 was closer to what I experienced in high school, 01:02:54.159 --> 01:02:56.500 you know, before phones and social media and 01:02:56.500 --> 01:03:02.369 all the, you know, different competing. um technologies 01:03:02.369 --> 01:03:06.110 and um you know boarding school you you live 01:03:06.110 --> 01:03:08.329 there all the time so you're living with your 01:03:08.329 --> 01:03:12.769 classmates and um i think that really helped 01:03:12.769 --> 01:03:17.590 uh that was a positive thing for him and what 01:03:17.590 --> 01:03:21.630 about sports what was he playing he was a three 01:03:21.630 --> 01:03:29.070 -season athlete he um primarily um played football 01:03:30.199 --> 01:03:34.619 basketball and lacrosse but he also played baseball 01:03:34.619 --> 01:03:42.159 and he loved golf um and so and and huge sports 01:03:42.159 --> 01:03:46.340 fan you know like and sports are always part 01:03:46.340 --> 01:03:53.099 of our house household um we go to pro football 01:03:53.099 --> 01:03:56.599 games we took our kids to a lot of um college 01:03:56.599 --> 01:04:00.949 football games charlie's uncle was a D1 basketball 01:04:00.949 --> 01:04:04.670 coach, not too far from us. So he was going to 01:04:04.670 --> 01:04:08.050 ACC basketball games all the time. So fandom 01:04:08.050 --> 01:04:13.210 was, is a part of our family language. And then, 01:04:13.250 --> 01:04:16.610 and when he was, one of his sisters was also 01:04:16.610 --> 01:04:21.010 an athlete. And, you know, they were always, 01:04:21.389 --> 01:04:24.329 you know, you know, parents will know the weekend 01:04:24.329 --> 01:04:27.250 shuffle with, you know, driving to games and 01:04:27.250 --> 01:04:31.710 bringing snacks. you know, the rotating schedules 01:04:31.710 --> 01:04:34.309 of practices and things like that. That was very 01:04:34.309 --> 01:04:38.329 much our life. I know a lot of the people, especially 01:04:38.329 --> 01:04:40.750 in the military and combat sports, you know, 01:04:40.750 --> 01:04:43.429 we've got this correlation between head trauma 01:04:43.429 --> 01:04:45.489 and some of the mental health challenges. Did 01:04:45.489 --> 01:04:48.170 he take any big hits or have any kind of physiological 01:04:48.170 --> 01:04:55.030 issues prior to losing him? We are aware of, 01:04:55.050 --> 01:04:59.780 and he did play football and lacrosse. um so 01:04:59.780 --> 01:05:03.139 he did get banged up i mean it just comes with 01:05:03.139 --> 01:05:07.860 the territory he was tall and strong but thin 01:05:07.860 --> 01:05:14.059 right so um in a um you know one -on -one situation 01:05:14.059 --> 01:05:20.559 he i do think that he was maybe vulnerable particularly 01:05:20.559 --> 01:05:24.260 when he got in high school um some of the kids 01:05:24.260 --> 01:05:27.210 he played football and lacrosse with went on 01:05:27.210 --> 01:05:31.750 to be D one athletes at, you know, places like 01:05:31.750 --> 01:05:36.510 Notre Dame and Duke. And so he was with some 01:05:36.510 --> 01:05:41.869 serious competitors, but he was never treated 01:05:41.869 --> 01:05:47.730 for a concussion. And, and I think, and, and 01:05:47.730 --> 01:05:51.059 I feel like I'm betraying him a little bit. saying 01:05:51.059 --> 01:05:54.539 this but i it's not meant to be a criticism but 01:05:54.539 --> 01:05:59.699 i hope people will understand he he loved sports 01:05:59.699 --> 01:06:04.019 he loved playing sports he really wanted to be 01:06:04.019 --> 01:06:09.820 a you know a a big athlete but he didn't have 01:06:09.820 --> 01:06:16.960 that killer instinct and he i you watched as 01:06:16.960 --> 01:06:22.400 he got older um particularly you can tell the 01:06:22.400 --> 01:06:28.019 kids who have that fearlessness and they're willing 01:06:28.019 --> 01:06:31.760 to just put their body through anything I see 01:06:31.760 --> 01:06:36.039 it as a fan actually mostly with basketball because 01:06:36.039 --> 01:06:38.179 you can see so much of basketball you don't have 01:06:38.179 --> 01:06:40.519 the gear and the helmets and things on and when 01:06:40.519 --> 01:06:42.780 someone is driving the lane and you're going 01:06:42.780 --> 01:06:49.059 up against you know a 6 -3 brick wall And you're 01:06:49.059 --> 01:06:52.980 running your whole body into that just so you 01:06:52.980 --> 01:06:55.219 can make a basket. And it's everything. It's 01:06:55.219 --> 01:06:57.219 your head, your neck, your shoulders, your hands, 01:06:57.239 --> 01:07:01.639 your arms, all on the line. And Charlie never 01:07:01.639 --> 01:07:05.679 had that. He never had that. He was a jump shot 01:07:05.679 --> 01:07:09.280 guy, right? He was never, you know, he knew what 01:07:09.280 --> 01:07:13.780 he needed to do. He was, you know. He was devoted. 01:07:14.219 --> 01:07:17.900 He worked hard, but he could never find that 01:07:17.900 --> 01:07:22.960 little space where he just put all self -protection 01:07:22.960 --> 01:07:29.179 aside and put his body into his play. And as 01:07:29.179 --> 01:07:31.219 a mom, I was like, this is fine with me, right? 01:07:32.940 --> 01:07:37.380 Because I do think it kept him safer. His sister, 01:07:37.440 --> 01:07:40.960 interestingly. And two years older was a lacrosse 01:07:40.960 --> 01:07:44.059 player and she had so many concussions. We couldn't 01:07:44.059 --> 01:07:46.679 even keep track. At one point, she was seeing 01:07:46.679 --> 01:07:51.019 the concussion specialist who treats the Washington 01:07:51.019 --> 01:07:55.219 Capitals. So like so I feel like we were fairly 01:07:55.219 --> 01:08:00.559 versed in head injury and body trauma for, you 01:08:00.559 --> 01:08:02.980 know, middle school and high school athletes 01:08:02.980 --> 01:08:07.909 and things. And. Charlie, that's a really long 01:08:07.909 --> 01:08:13.369 answer, but that is not anything I worry about 01:08:13.369 --> 01:08:17.329 how he could have gotten to the point where his 01:08:17.329 --> 01:08:20.550 mental illness overtook him. I'm sure it didn't 01:08:20.550 --> 01:08:25.710 help, but not a lot. Yeah. What about career 01:08:25.710 --> 01:08:27.550 aspirations? What was he thinking of becoming? 01:08:31.689 --> 01:08:36.819 He loved history. He loved... political science 01:08:36.819 --> 01:08:43.420 he loved debate so he was planning on being a 01:08:43.420 --> 01:08:47.680 lawyer really suited his personality analytical 01:08:47.680 --> 01:08:54.579 mind um my husband his father was a big debater 01:08:54.579 --> 01:08:58.939 was a lawyer who doesn't practice anymore but 01:08:58.939 --> 01:09:01.640 you know you know some people's minds are just 01:09:01.640 --> 01:09:07.840 um built that way and um Charlie definitely was 01:09:07.840 --> 01:09:14.619 built to take the emotion out of an argument 01:09:14.619 --> 01:09:17.579 or a situation and look at the facts, look at 01:09:17.579 --> 01:09:20.800 the history, look at the rules of the laws. He 01:09:20.800 --> 01:09:24.579 thrived on that. And he was doing very, very 01:09:24.579 --> 01:09:27.680 well. He'd worked for judges and for law firms. 01:09:28.680 --> 01:09:34.979 And I think that's where he was headed. So when 01:09:34.979 --> 01:09:39.039 you reflect back, what was some of the red flags? 01:09:39.140 --> 01:09:41.399 And like you said, hindsight is 20 -20. You're 01:09:41.399 --> 01:09:43.979 doing a lot more forensic analysis after you 01:09:43.979 --> 01:09:47.199 had this horrendous event happen. But were there 01:09:47.199 --> 01:09:50.619 any elements that made you realize that there 01:09:50.619 --> 01:09:52.859 was a mental struggle going along along the way? 01:09:55.220 --> 01:09:57.300 Honestly, and I know this is not what people 01:09:57.300 --> 01:10:08.659 want to hear, no. We're still surprised. It's 01:10:08.659 --> 01:10:14.880 been almost three years. I can look back and 01:10:14.880 --> 01:10:18.319 I can see he was struggling, but to me, it seemed 01:10:18.319 --> 01:10:23.020 very garden variety growing up, ups and downs 01:10:23.020 --> 01:10:31.779 of life. And, you know, his timeline is that 01:10:31.779 --> 01:10:40.789 he went to college. He, spring break of his freshman 01:10:40.789 --> 01:10:44.949 year, he ended up not going back to college because 01:10:44.949 --> 01:10:47.590 of the pandemic. It was that time when everybody, 01:10:47.869 --> 01:10:50.430 everything shut down. He happened to already 01:10:50.430 --> 01:10:56.670 be home. During the pandemic, his high school 01:10:56.670 --> 01:10:59.989 friends were all here. So they formed a bubble. 01:11:00.970 --> 01:11:06.380 And I can honestly say our family. was very blessed 01:11:06.380 --> 01:11:10.220 to have a positive pandemic experience we were 01:11:10.220 --> 01:11:13.199 together we had space we have a nice yard we 01:11:13.199 --> 01:11:16.300 had the dog each of my kids have their friends 01:11:16.300 --> 01:11:22.439 um a lot of hanging out in the backyard but even 01:11:22.439 --> 01:11:26.680 you know one of charlie's friends had a place 01:11:26.680 --> 01:11:30.340 on a lake in north carolina so they went down 01:11:30.340 --> 01:11:33.359 there for two weeks you know another had a place 01:11:33.359 --> 01:11:35.840 in massachusetts they went up there for a couple 01:11:35.840 --> 01:11:40.539 of weeks so he was connected he was engaged he 01:11:40.539 --> 01:11:45.920 chose to stay um follow 2020 and do remote classes 01:11:45.920 --> 01:11:50.100 from home those friends were still around um 01:11:50.100 --> 01:11:55.159 you know going out on boats going you know i 01:11:55.159 --> 01:11:58.460 mean just it was a very outdoor time outdoorsy 01:11:58.460 --> 01:12:04.090 time He went back to college, slipped right back 01:12:04.090 --> 01:12:07.850 into things. He was in a fraternity. He had great 01:12:07.850 --> 01:12:15.470 friends. And we first learned that he was struggling 01:12:15.470 --> 01:12:22.869 in spring of 2022. So he was end of his junior 01:12:22.869 --> 01:12:28.000 year. The reason we learned is because a friend 01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:33.619 of his called and said, Charlie knows I'm talking 01:12:33.619 --> 01:12:36.560 to you, but I felt like I needed to tell you 01:12:36.560 --> 01:12:40.859 that he was threatening to hurt himself. And 01:12:40.859 --> 01:12:47.039 we were floored. We had no idea. No idea. When 01:12:47.039 --> 01:12:50.460 I got that call, I had literally spoken to him 01:12:50.460 --> 01:12:54.649 20 minutes earlier and thought he was fine. You 01:12:54.649 --> 01:12:58.989 know, and so I got on a plane. I flew to Texas. 01:12:59.189 --> 01:13:03.369 I was there as the sun came up. I got a hotel 01:13:03.369 --> 01:13:09.270 room. He and he came and he joined me and we 01:13:09.270 --> 01:13:12.609 got in there and we just slept. He slept in the 01:13:12.609 --> 01:13:15.189 bed. I slept on the sofa. And when he woke up 01:13:15.189 --> 01:13:20.010 middle of the afternoon, he was absolutely distraught. 01:13:20.090 --> 01:13:25.880 He was crying, sobbing. I hadn't seen him upset 01:13:25.880 --> 01:13:29.739 like that since he was a little boy. And he said 01:13:29.739 --> 01:13:31.680 he was really afraid, but he could not articulate 01:13:31.680 --> 01:13:35.720 what he was afraid about. So I stayed for a week. 01:13:37.300 --> 01:13:43.699 And while I was there, he received a phone call 01:13:43.699 --> 01:13:48.520 from the health center at his university. And 01:13:48.520 --> 01:13:52.840 while he was on that call, I learned. In that 01:13:52.840 --> 01:13:55.819 conversation, hearing his side of it, that he 01:13:55.819 --> 01:14:00.380 called the crisis line for his university. So 01:14:00.380 --> 01:14:03.020 he did what he was supposed to do. He was having 01:14:03.020 --> 01:14:05.340 these awful thoughts and he called for help. 01:14:05.840 --> 01:14:08.340 And they had determined that he was not in immediate 01:14:08.340 --> 01:14:12.560 danger. And so this was the follow -up call. 01:14:14.180 --> 01:14:18.779 I also learned that he had put himself in therapy 01:14:18.779 --> 01:14:24.729 a year before. And I didn't know. I didn't know. 01:14:24.770 --> 01:14:28.449 He didn't tell us. So looking back, he had been 01:14:28.449 --> 01:14:32.369 struggling for about a year and he's doing these 01:14:32.369 --> 01:14:34.869 things to try and take care of himself. He's 01:14:34.869 --> 01:14:37.529 going to therapy. He's calling the crisis line. 01:14:37.689 --> 01:14:39.529 And of course, I know the external things that 01:14:39.529 --> 01:14:41.869 I can see. He's hanging out with his friends. 01:14:41.989 --> 01:14:44.750 He's got a girlfriend. He's traveling. He's doing 01:14:44.750 --> 01:14:47.569 well in school. He's got a job. He's, you know, 01:14:47.569 --> 01:14:52.369 like that all looks good. And so we were shocked 01:14:52.369 --> 01:14:59.869 that he was in that much pain. And, you know, 01:14:59.890 --> 01:15:04.569 had a lot of hard conversations with him, hard 01:15:04.569 --> 01:15:07.829 for me to say, but important. I asked him point 01:15:07.829 --> 01:15:10.130 blank, are you thinking of harming yourself? 01:15:10.289 --> 01:15:13.029 Are you thinking of suicide? And he said, no. 01:15:14.810 --> 01:15:20.210 And I believed him. And he was doing all these 01:15:20.210 --> 01:15:23.189 things. And then, you know, I flew back home 01:15:23.189 --> 01:15:26.609 and, you know, we're all trying to get back on. 01:15:26.649 --> 01:15:30.550 He's finishing school. He's starting a job. We 01:15:30.550 --> 01:15:34.829 saw him between then and when he died. It was 01:15:34.829 --> 01:15:40.390 11 weeks. 11 weeks between the time that he had 01:15:40.390 --> 01:15:43.630 this first sort of cry for help and when he killed 01:15:43.630 --> 01:15:49.220 himself. And we saw him five times. He was home. 01:15:49.239 --> 01:15:52.560 We were with him. We met for his sister's graduation. 01:15:53.479 --> 01:15:57.220 We are in constant contact. I'm asking him, how's 01:15:57.220 --> 01:16:00.119 your therapy going? How's your mood? How's your 01:16:00.119 --> 01:16:02.819 outlook? His sisters are calling. You know, everybody 01:16:02.819 --> 01:16:05.680 is in it, on it. And so when the police knocked 01:16:05.680 --> 01:16:07.859 on my door and said that he had hung himself, 01:16:08.220 --> 01:16:12.800 it was as if someone had said, Martians have 01:16:12.800 --> 01:16:15.659 landed in your front yard. Like, I could not 01:16:15.659 --> 01:16:18.579 have, I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe 01:16:18.579 --> 01:16:29.380 it. He was doing everything. One of the stark 01:16:29.380 --> 01:16:32.760 realizations that I had after all these conversations, 01:16:32.960 --> 01:16:35.300 because there's so many people, hundreds of people 01:16:35.300 --> 01:16:37.819 on here were at that point. A few of them went 01:16:37.819 --> 01:16:39.819 through with their suicide attempt and survived. 01:16:40.279 --> 01:16:41.979 Actually, I don't know if you've crossed paths 01:16:41.979 --> 01:16:44.500 with Emma Benoit. She's out of Louisiana as well. 01:16:45.199 --> 01:16:49.300 So her story, for example, and actually Emma's 01:16:49.300 --> 01:16:51.920 one wasn't what I was about to say so much because 01:16:51.920 --> 01:16:54.100 she was so young for her. It was really the stress 01:16:54.100 --> 01:16:56.659 of not knowing what to do when she graduated. 01:16:56.680 --> 01:16:59.560 That was enough to culminate to this, you know, 01:16:59.560 --> 01:17:03.159 immense and she had bullying as well. But what 01:17:03.159 --> 01:17:05.720 you don't hear, and I'll kind of take a step 01:17:05.720 --> 01:17:08.779 back. When you and I were younger, we were told 01:17:08.779 --> 01:17:12.060 that suicide was selfish and cowardly and how 01:17:12.060 --> 01:17:14.890 could you and think of your family. And then 01:17:14.890 --> 01:17:16.829 you actually start a podcast and people tell 01:17:16.829 --> 01:17:18.449 you what was actually going on when they were 01:17:18.449 --> 01:17:21.970 there. And you understand that there is a perfect 01:17:21.970 --> 01:17:25.409 storm of contributing factors, you know, unaddressed 01:17:25.409 --> 01:17:28.430 childhood trauma, you know, the stress of, you 01:17:28.430 --> 01:17:30.329 know, for example, that an educational path, 01:17:30.510 --> 01:17:32.649 you know, the side effects of psych meds, you 01:17:32.649 --> 01:17:36.189 know, alcohol, organizational betrayal, you know, 01:17:36.189 --> 01:17:38.189 relationship issues, financial issues. And now 01:17:38.189 --> 01:17:40.069 you've got this cyclone that's just whirring. 01:17:42.270 --> 01:17:46.109 Almost every single time I have heard them say 01:17:46.109 --> 01:17:50.289 that their reality was distorted and that they 01:17:50.289 --> 01:17:54.350 said I was a reason for my family's pain. And 01:17:54.350 --> 01:17:57.510 if I just remove myself, everyone would be happier, 01:17:57.649 --> 01:18:00.569 which makes no sense to a healthy brain, but 01:18:00.569 --> 01:18:04.090 is literally their reality at that point. Were 01:18:04.090 --> 01:18:07.050 there any kind of elements that he talked about 01:18:07.050 --> 01:18:09.649 that implied that there was a kind of guilt, 01:18:09.689 --> 01:18:13.210 shame? that he was kind of feeling towards the 01:18:13.210 --> 01:18:22.850 end. So we have not discovered that, but what 01:18:22.850 --> 01:18:30.750 I realized pretty quickly is healthy Charlie, 01:18:30.890 --> 01:18:36.109 risk averse, care about everyone, put everyone 01:18:36.109 --> 01:18:41.519 else before him, didn't like attention. that 01:18:41.519 --> 01:18:47.359 Charlie was not capable of doing what he did. 01:18:48.359 --> 01:18:56.380 If he knew how much pain his death would cause 01:18:56.380 --> 01:19:00.600 to people, the very people he cares most about, 01:19:00.720 --> 01:19:06.300 he could have never, ever gone through with it. 01:19:06.479 --> 01:19:11.119 So just because He did not articulate or write 01:19:11.119 --> 01:19:17.840 or express, you're better off without me. I know 01:19:17.840 --> 01:19:22.220 that's what he was thinking because that's how 01:19:22.220 --> 01:19:29.399 sick he was. And the power of the brain to distort 01:19:29.399 --> 01:19:34.159 your thinking that way. Okay, so Charlie, the 01:19:34.159 --> 01:19:38.489 night before he died. He went out with a bunch 01:19:38.489 --> 01:19:41.729 of friends. He's 21. It's summer, college town. 01:19:41.949 --> 01:19:45.810 They go to bars. They're hanging out. He drank, 01:19:45.810 --> 01:19:48.270 but nobody really seemed to think he was overly 01:19:48.270 --> 01:19:50.029 drunk. You know, it's just kind of a regular 01:19:50.029 --> 01:19:52.010 night out. And everybody went back to his place. 01:19:52.109 --> 01:19:54.350 He lived in a group house. Everybody's hanging 01:19:54.350 --> 01:19:59.449 around, talking, playing pool, playing cards, 01:19:59.729 --> 01:20:01.890 you know, that late night thing. It's about three 01:20:01.890 --> 01:20:04.010 o 'clock in the morning and he's talking to a 01:20:04.010 --> 01:20:06.390 friend of his. Someone he's known since high 01:20:06.390 --> 01:20:09.970 school who happens to go to the same college 01:20:09.970 --> 01:20:13.229 and lives across the street from him. And they 01:20:13.229 --> 01:20:16.409 were stressed out and they were all probably 01:20:16.409 --> 01:20:18.210 a little drunk and, you know, you're kind of 01:20:18.210 --> 01:20:22.149 rambling and, and they were worried about some 01:20:22.149 --> 01:20:27.670 social drama, just regular college stuff. And 01:20:27.670 --> 01:20:32.869 they were pretty anxious about it. And Charlie 01:20:32.869 --> 01:20:37.560 said, Whatever you're feeling now, it's not going 01:20:37.560 --> 01:20:44.659 to last. And if you ever need me, I'm right across 01:20:44.659 --> 01:20:51.060 the street. I'm here for you. And within hours, 01:20:51.319 --> 01:20:59.100 he was dead. So within hours, he went from having 01:20:59.100 --> 01:21:07.180 the clarity. And the grounding to understand 01:21:07.180 --> 01:21:12.960 that feelings are temporary, that feelings can 01:21:12.960 --> 01:21:18.020 lie to you, that your thoughts and emotions can 01:21:18.020 --> 01:21:20.579 distort reality. I mean, this is what he was 01:21:20.579 --> 01:21:26.739 talking with this person about. And then he woke 01:21:26.739 --> 01:21:32.039 up and said, no, I'm out of here. I don't, I'm 01:21:32.039 --> 01:21:38.819 never going to be happy. That is power. That 01:21:38.819 --> 01:21:47.119 is terrifying. And, and I know a lot of his friends 01:21:47.119 --> 01:21:50.779 and my friends, I mean, people want to know what 01:21:50.779 --> 01:21:55.619 happened, you know, was there a thing? Was there 01:21:55.619 --> 01:21:58.850 a trigger? Was there a moment? Was there? something 01:21:58.850 --> 01:22:03.270 looming that he was worried about. And maybe 01:22:03.270 --> 01:22:07.789 there was, we have not uncovered anything that 01:22:07.789 --> 01:22:11.149 would indicate that. Everything else points to 01:22:11.149 --> 01:22:19.409 his brain was so infected with depression's lies 01:22:19.409 --> 01:22:26.449 that he could not, he had no grip on reality. 01:22:28.280 --> 01:22:31.859 Not all the time, because everybody thought he 01:22:31.859 --> 01:22:36.079 was doing fine. We're having these normal conversations. 01:22:36.260 --> 01:22:38.100 He's showing up to work. He's going to class. 01:22:38.199 --> 01:22:42.000 He's making plans. He's doing all those things. 01:22:42.100 --> 01:22:43.699 He's on the other end of the phone. He's on the 01:22:43.699 --> 01:22:49.979 other end of the text. But the power of mental 01:22:49.979 --> 01:22:58.050 illness, of depression, so overcame him. that 01:22:58.050 --> 01:23:02.829 he said it's better if i die like what does it 01:23:02.829 --> 01:23:05.710 take for your brain to override its most natural 01:23:05.710 --> 01:23:11.270 instinct of self -preservation yeah exactly and 01:23:11.270 --> 01:23:13.050 then another factor that i didn't talk about 01:23:13.050 --> 01:23:15.170 that's huge in my profession is sleep deprivation 01:23:15.170 --> 01:23:18.210 but we forget that that occurs a lot in our students 01:23:18.210 --> 01:23:20.949 too and so you've got that you know and i always 01:23:20.949 --> 01:23:23.050 point this out if you don't understand the impact 01:23:23.050 --> 01:23:26.489 of sleep deprivation remember that it's used 01:23:26.489 --> 01:23:30.789 for Special forces selection to weave out recruits, 01:23:30.789 --> 01:23:33.229 weed out recruits. It's used for interrogation 01:23:33.229 --> 01:23:35.289 and it's used for torture. That's how much it 01:23:35.289 --> 01:23:38.090 breaks down the brain. And then you add in alcohol. 01:23:38.170 --> 01:23:40.289 I just had a law enforcement officer a few weeks 01:23:40.289 --> 01:23:43.869 ago and she started doing forensics on, you know, 01:23:43.869 --> 01:23:46.310 autopsies on suicides, officer suicides, not 01:23:46.310 --> 01:23:49.369 the physical side, but, you know, what were all 01:23:49.369 --> 01:23:51.250 the contributing factors leading up to this? 01:23:51.489 --> 01:23:54.670 And she said every single one had consumed alcohol 01:23:54.670 --> 01:23:57.859 within 12 hours. And I've said this. you have 01:23:57.859 --> 01:23:59.939 this psychosis and it's call it what it is it's 01:23:59.939 --> 01:24:02.859 a um you know the point where the brain isn't 01:24:02.859 --> 01:24:06.479 acting like it normally would but there's still 01:24:06.479 --> 01:24:08.380 that little voice in the back of it it's like 01:24:08.380 --> 01:24:11.779 the reality trying to claw its way back but then 01:24:11.779 --> 01:24:14.100 you add in alcohol and i've you know tongue -in 01:24:14.100 --> 01:24:16.539 -cheek example if it's true how many people have 01:24:16.539 --> 01:24:19.359 been out drinking and then ended up hooking up 01:24:19.359 --> 01:24:21.939 with someone of whatever gender they're into. 01:24:22.100 --> 01:24:24.760 And then the next morning going, I probably wouldn't 01:24:24.760 --> 01:24:26.880 have done that had I been sober. This is the 01:24:26.880 --> 01:24:29.979 problem. If it's just that one straw left on 01:24:29.979 --> 01:24:32.220 that camel's back and you have even just a few 01:24:32.220 --> 01:24:34.239 drinks and then let's say you sleep poorly as 01:24:34.239 --> 01:24:38.020 well, was that enough? And I think just to underline, 01:24:38.039 --> 01:24:40.100 like I said, that whole selfish, cowardly, all 01:24:40.100 --> 01:24:43.779 that thing, you then now factor this person who 01:24:43.779 --> 01:24:47.350 was an empath, who was the kind one. or in my 01:24:47.350 --> 01:24:49.470 profession that would lay their life down for 01:24:49.470 --> 01:24:52.409 a stranger, and you convince them that you are 01:24:52.409 --> 01:24:55.069 the problem, I would argue in that distorted 01:24:55.069 --> 01:24:58.390 moment, the people that we lose more often than 01:24:58.390 --> 01:25:01.510 not was actually a terrifying, courageous, selfless 01:25:01.510 --> 01:25:04.550 act in that moment. Because they believe that 01:25:04.550 --> 01:25:06.189 they were going to make the world better by removing 01:25:06.189 --> 01:25:08.750 themselves. So it's important that we put that 01:25:08.750 --> 01:25:11.329 compassion and empathy back and rather than the 01:25:11.329 --> 01:25:13.590 guilt and shame that more often than not has 01:25:13.590 --> 01:25:15.430 led people to this point in the first place. 01:25:16.470 --> 01:25:22.770 i yeah i mean there is a it's ridiculous but 01:25:22.770 --> 01:25:28.949 there is a courage you know in in in these acts 01:25:28.949 --> 01:25:35.010 and then that's not to celebrate them but um 01:25:35.010 --> 01:25:39.829 in the distorted thinking of the person who is 01:25:39.829 --> 01:25:43.789 is having suicidal thoughts i mean you know i 01:25:43.789 --> 01:25:47.850 told you the about Charlie's characteristics 01:25:47.850 --> 01:25:56.630 as an athlete for a reason. He did not, he was 01:25:56.630 --> 01:26:02.390 not a big risk taker. He was, I think, emotionally 01:26:02.390 --> 01:26:07.130 courageous, intellectually courageous, but he 01:26:07.130 --> 01:26:09.930 wasn't physically courageous. And that's okay. 01:26:10.350 --> 01:26:17.189 You know, you need all types. I kind of love 01:26:17.189 --> 01:26:20.909 that about him, that he was careful. So how can 01:26:20.909 --> 01:26:26.869 someone who's careful kill themselves? I will 01:26:26.869 --> 01:26:31.210 also add to your alcohol sleep deprivation thing, 01:26:31.390 --> 01:26:39.630 food. Charlie had not been eating. And, you know, 01:26:39.649 --> 01:26:42.550 a lot of people, when we're stressed or distressed 01:26:42.550 --> 01:26:48.140 or struggling, You know, you take it in the gut. 01:26:48.579 --> 01:26:52.779 You either take on lots and lots of extra food 01:26:52.779 --> 01:26:57.020 or you can't take on any food at all. I can't 01:26:57.020 --> 01:26:59.859 eat. His sisters can't eat. His father can't 01:26:59.859 --> 01:27:02.000 eat. And he couldn't eat whenever we're stressed. 01:27:02.180 --> 01:27:06.439 Right. This is run of the mill day in, day out, 01:27:06.520 --> 01:27:09.420 ready for a test or presentation or something 01:27:09.420 --> 01:27:15.119 kind of stress. But I noticed when. We got his, 01:27:15.119 --> 01:27:18.539 his cry for help. And I spent that week with 01:27:18.539 --> 01:27:23.159 him. You know, it's a thing. And if you've, if 01:27:23.159 --> 01:27:24.640 you've experienced, you know what I'm talking 01:27:24.640 --> 01:27:28.579 about? It's like your throat constricts, like 01:27:28.579 --> 01:27:32.680 it literally doesn't allow food in. And like, 01:27:32.920 --> 01:27:40.390 I, I, I could feel that. My body was hungry, 01:27:40.489 --> 01:27:43.590 but my body wasn't allowing me to get the food 01:27:43.590 --> 01:27:48.890 in my body. And so you get depleted, really depleted. 01:27:49.109 --> 01:27:53.329 That does not help your mood and your thinking 01:27:53.329 --> 01:28:00.029 and your clarity. And it compounds. And so, I 01:28:00.029 --> 01:28:03.899 mean. in our family, smoothies are a big thing. 01:28:04.020 --> 01:28:07.640 Just try and get a smoothie that has some fruits 01:28:07.640 --> 01:28:10.500 or vegetables or even protein in them because 01:28:10.500 --> 01:28:14.479 you can take a few sips on that straw, right? 01:28:14.619 --> 01:28:18.039 Like just get something in your body, but meals, 01:28:18.220 --> 01:28:22.100 forget it, forget it. You know, two French fries, 01:28:22.199 --> 01:28:25.100 that's it. And it's, and it's a, and it's terrible 01:28:25.100 --> 01:28:30.300 because it does make your, it stresses your brain. 01:28:30.569 --> 01:28:34.029 And so I think Charlie woke up hungover, tired, 01:28:34.289 --> 01:28:41.869 hungry, and whatever insecurities, doubts, you 01:28:41.869 --> 01:28:44.550 know, maybe he was cringing about a conversation 01:28:44.550 --> 01:28:46.829 he'd had, you know, we all do that, right? You 01:28:46.829 --> 01:28:48.630 wake up and go, oh my gosh, I cannot believe 01:28:48.630 --> 01:28:50.970 I said that to that person, you know, whatever. 01:28:51.270 --> 01:28:53.329 None of these are reasons to kill yourself, by 01:28:53.329 --> 01:29:00.050 the way. But it all compounded. Very human, normal 01:29:00.050 --> 01:29:07.550 things compounded because his brain was under 01:29:07.550 --> 01:29:12.170 such duress from depression. I think it's why 01:29:12.170 --> 01:29:14.050 it's so important to have these conversations 01:29:14.050 --> 01:29:16.630 and we'll get to the honesty that you touched 01:29:16.630 --> 01:29:19.890 on earlier as far as telling everyone what had 01:29:19.890 --> 01:29:23.149 happened is unless we really break down, like 01:29:23.149 --> 01:29:24.890 I said, this perfect storm, because it's never 01:29:24.890 --> 01:29:27.039 one thing. Of course, it's not one thing. Otherwise, 01:29:27.319 --> 01:29:29.500 you know, we'd have hardly any of the population 01:29:29.500 --> 01:29:31.199 left because they'd have a bad day and that would 01:29:31.199 --> 01:29:34.779 be it. They'd end it. So, but the more things 01:29:34.779 --> 01:29:37.180 that you can address that are in your control, 01:29:37.300 --> 01:29:39.380 you can't, you know, you can't really control 01:29:39.380 --> 01:29:41.779 if the person you're madly in love with, you 01:29:41.779 --> 01:29:43.779 find with someone else one day. I mean, it happened 01:29:43.779 --> 01:29:46.760 to me. That's out of my control. But I can control 01:29:46.760 --> 01:29:49.300 if I sleep. I can control if I eat or have smoothies. 01:29:49.300 --> 01:29:52.510 I can control, you know, the... understand the 01:29:52.510 --> 01:29:54.430 impact of alcohol and if it's going to affect 01:29:54.430 --> 01:29:57.630 my sleep. I can control if talk therapy and psych 01:29:57.630 --> 01:30:00.529 meds are right for me or maybe therapy dogs or 01:30:00.529 --> 01:30:05.149 a psilocybin retreat. I mean, the more we pull 01:30:05.149 --> 01:30:07.050 it out the shadows, the more we can pick apart 01:30:07.050 --> 01:30:10.569 the areas that we can control. And so even on 01:30:10.569 --> 01:30:13.409 some of your worst times, you're still not getting 01:30:13.409 --> 01:30:16.270 right to the threshold of taking your own life 01:30:16.270 --> 01:30:19.239 or drowning in addiction. But if we keep that 01:30:19.239 --> 01:30:21.159 stigma and we keep shoving everything in the 01:30:21.159 --> 01:30:23.640 corner, we're never going to address it. So I 01:30:23.640 --> 01:30:27.039 think this is why, you know, we'll talk about 01:30:27.039 --> 01:30:29.300 this now, but in my profession, I have admiration 01:30:29.300 --> 01:30:32.460 for those families that say we lost our loved 01:30:32.460 --> 01:30:35.180 one to suicide because the number of times that 01:30:35.180 --> 01:30:37.899 I see died suddenly or, you know, whatever the 01:30:37.899 --> 01:30:40.500 other rhetoric is. And we all know what it is, 01:30:40.579 --> 01:30:42.380 but they don't say what it is. And then what 01:30:42.380 --> 01:30:44.319 happens is, you know, it doesn't factor on the 01:30:44.319 --> 01:30:46.850 national statistics then. Oh, we only lost, you 01:30:46.850 --> 01:30:49.409 know, 70 firefighters to suicide. No, you didn't. 01:30:49.409 --> 01:30:52.970 Not even close. And not to mention the products 01:30:52.970 --> 01:30:55.350 of alcoholism and then, you know, the overdoses, 01:30:55.350 --> 01:30:57.869 it's 10 times that. And then the fact that we've 01:30:57.869 --> 01:31:00.149 got retirees that aren't counted now times that 01:31:00.149 --> 01:31:04.029 by 100. You know, I mean, it's an absolute, you 01:31:04.029 --> 01:31:06.630 know, tip, minute tip at the iceberg because 01:31:06.630 --> 01:31:10.210 of this shame and guilt. So big kind of preamble 01:31:10.210 --> 01:31:13.039 to the question. So let's talk about that day, 01:31:13.159 --> 01:31:17.279 July 10th, 2022. Walk me through that. And then 01:31:17.279 --> 01:31:20.180 let's talk about what you as a family decided 01:31:20.180 --> 01:31:22.819 to do, you know, from that day moving forward. 01:31:26.640 --> 01:31:37.960 Sunday, July 10th, 2022. Setting the stage, Charlie 01:31:37.960 --> 01:31:44.630 lived in Fort Worth. And his sister, Abby, lived 01:31:44.630 --> 01:31:50.010 in Baton Rouge. And his oldest sister, Grace, 01:31:50.149 --> 01:31:55.390 lived in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. And my 01:31:55.390 --> 01:32:01.949 husband and I are in empty nesting mode. And 01:32:01.949 --> 01:32:09.300 he played golf and I have a... garden that I 01:32:09.300 --> 01:32:13.960 love, that feeds me and supports me emotionally. 01:32:15.180 --> 01:32:18.539 And so I was in the garden all day. And normally 01:32:18.539 --> 01:32:23.260 we talk to our kids on and off. There's no set 01:32:23.260 --> 01:32:26.720 schedule, but during the week, text and call. 01:32:27.020 --> 01:32:29.340 But we always make it a point to talk on Sundays. 01:32:30.779 --> 01:32:36.600 And called Charlie. He didn't pick up, but didn't 01:32:36.600 --> 01:32:38.979 think anything of it. He texted me the night 01:32:38.979 --> 01:32:45.680 before, you know, at whatever, 1030, 1130. And, 01:32:45.680 --> 01:32:49.300 you know, I mean, he's a 21 year old living in 01:32:49.300 --> 01:32:52.300 a group house in a college town. He doesn't need 01:32:52.300 --> 01:32:55.600 to be jumping to it every time his mother calls. 01:32:57.420 --> 01:33:02.060 And by the evening, we still hadn't heard from 01:33:02.060 --> 01:33:06.380 him. And I can't say I was worried like. Not 01:33:06.380 --> 01:33:11.579 about this. But it was unusual. It was unusual 01:33:11.579 --> 01:33:14.619 that at some point during the day, he would not 01:33:14.619 --> 01:33:18.859 have said, hey, I'll call you later or check 01:33:18.859 --> 01:33:26.439 in. And so we contacted one of his roommates 01:33:26.439 --> 01:33:30.180 and said, hey, can you just check on Charlie? 01:33:30.239 --> 01:33:35.039 We hadn't heard from him. Make sure everything's 01:33:35.039 --> 01:33:40.979 okay. And, um, we, and I just kind of forgot 01:33:40.979 --> 01:33:43.220 about it, you know, like, I mean, that's how 01:33:43.220 --> 01:33:47.300 I didn't have an intuition. Some people do. And 01:33:47.300 --> 01:33:50.640 maybe it's good that I didn't because, you know, 01:33:50.640 --> 01:33:52.520 it was my last normal day of my life. Right. 01:33:54.039 --> 01:33:58.359 And, um, my husband and I had dinner. We hung 01:33:58.359 --> 01:34:01.659 down, watched TV. He went up. I stayed in the 01:34:01.659 --> 01:34:06.439 living room, which was my norm. working on some 01:34:06.439 --> 01:34:11.819 things. And, um, it was 1145 and the police, 01:34:11.979 --> 01:34:16.899 I saw the police cruiser pull up to my house 01:34:16.899 --> 01:34:23.239 and through the front window. And I, I knew it 01:34:23.239 --> 01:34:28.560 wasn't good. And, and I stood at the window and 01:34:28.560 --> 01:34:32.619 I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, 01:34:32.699 --> 01:34:39.819 no. And I kept hoping they would walk somewhere 01:34:39.819 --> 01:34:47.260 else. But then they walked to my door. And I 01:34:47.260 --> 01:34:56.119 knew. But I didn't know it was suicide. So my 01:34:56.119 --> 01:35:01.220 husband comes down. And they give us the news. 01:35:06.699 --> 01:35:11.140 you know the these moments these moments that 01:35:11.140 --> 01:35:13.460 people have when they learn of a loved one dying 01:35:13.460 --> 01:35:22.960 i mean it's it's shocking and and and i said 01:35:22.960 --> 01:35:26.619 how like i in my mind i had i thought maybe he 01:35:26.619 --> 01:35:29.600 had been in a car wreck or maybe he had drowned 01:35:29.600 --> 01:35:36.989 or and they said He hung himself from a ceiling 01:35:36.989 --> 01:35:51.229 fan in his room. And there's something. It's 01:35:51.229 --> 01:36:01.890 a wound. It's like you get hurt, too, when you 01:36:01.890 --> 01:36:08.579 learn the way. Your child hurts themselves. I 01:36:08.579 --> 01:36:11.640 mean, I stumbled backward. I mean, it was like, 01:36:11.760 --> 01:36:21.119 it's not just dead. It's suicide. I mean, my 01:36:21.119 --> 01:36:28.340 heart's racing just talking about it. But that's 01:36:28.340 --> 01:36:35.979 what happened. You know, it's absurd. They write 01:36:35.979 --> 01:36:41.760 down an 800 number for the Tarrant County Coroner. 01:36:44.180 --> 01:36:47.140 And they pull it off their notepad and they say, 01:36:47.279 --> 01:36:52.939 call them. They have answers for you. It's an 01:36:52.939 --> 01:37:01.939 800 number. And of course, I'm thinking. what's 01:37:01.939 --> 01:37:07.539 there to say? He's dead. I mean, it's weird. 01:37:09.340 --> 01:37:11.460 I mean, of course I had questions, but like, 01:37:11.500 --> 01:37:13.819 I was like, well, he's dead. I don't know what 01:37:13.819 --> 01:37:19.800 to talk to him about. Dean of students from TCU 01:37:19.800 --> 01:37:23.460 called, you know, by then it's after midnight. 01:37:23.619 --> 01:37:27.439 So your phone starts ringing. That's unusual. 01:37:28.590 --> 01:37:31.770 And then they put us in touch with a detective 01:37:31.770 --> 01:37:41.750 who had been at his, at the scene. I mean, it's 01:37:41.750 --> 01:37:44.750 crazy. It's crazy. You start talking about things 01:37:44.750 --> 01:37:47.750 like how to get the body back, right? You know, 01:37:47.789 --> 01:37:55.390 like it's crazy. And we called the sisters, woke 01:37:55.390 --> 01:37:58.239 them up in the middle of the night. deliver that 01:37:58.239 --> 01:38:04.680 news texted a few friends and then then it just 01:38:04.680 --> 01:38:09.199 snowballs and then you're in you're in crisis 01:38:09.199 --> 01:38:12.300 mode you're in crisis mode while you're grieving 01:38:12.300 --> 01:38:16.760 while you're trying to make sense of you know 01:38:16.760 --> 01:38:18.760 the worst thing that can happen which is losing 01:38:18.760 --> 01:38:27.470 someone you love and i As soon as the daughters, 01:38:27.569 --> 01:38:30.989 my daughters came here, we were all together. 01:38:31.050 --> 01:38:34.409 We realized as a family that we wanted to be 01:38:34.409 --> 01:38:39.250 honest about cause of death because we knew that 01:38:39.250 --> 01:38:47.449 people would want to know and they'd be talking 01:38:47.449 --> 01:38:52.090 about it anyway. And in a way, we did it to go 01:38:52.090 --> 01:38:54.819 easier on ourselves. you know because we didn't 01:38:54.819 --> 01:39:00.159 want to be hiding it's hard enough why add another 01:39:00.159 --> 01:39:05.720 layer of secrecy it's shameful why add more shame 01:39:05.720 --> 01:39:11.600 by having to keep up with who knows and who doesn't 01:39:11.600 --> 01:39:21.430 know and and so one of the interesting The consequences, 01:39:21.810 --> 01:39:25.229 positive consequences, is I think that that honesty 01:39:25.229 --> 01:39:28.449 has made it easier for our community to support 01:39:28.449 --> 01:39:31.829 us because they don't have to tiptoe around. 01:39:32.890 --> 01:39:39.149 They know how he died. And they don't have to 01:39:39.149 --> 01:39:42.930 pretend that they don't know. They can say his 01:39:42.930 --> 01:39:46.510 name. They can ask questions about him. They 01:39:46.510 --> 01:39:49.649 can talk about him. They let us talk about him. 01:39:50.010 --> 01:39:53.550 And I think that has helped us, you know, as 01:39:53.550 --> 01:39:56.729 we go through this path. And it's been almost 01:39:56.729 --> 01:40:00.970 three years and it is still a long path. But 01:40:00.970 --> 01:40:05.229 we are starting from a place of honesty and not 01:40:05.229 --> 01:40:08.750 one of secrecy. And I think that has made all 01:40:08.750 --> 01:40:12.149 the difference in the world. Did that honesty 01:40:12.149 --> 01:40:15.890 help even with the grief process itself? Yes. 01:40:17.010 --> 01:40:22.369 Yes. I mean. If you can't be honest about the 01:40:22.369 --> 01:40:26.050 biggest thing that has happened in your life, 01:40:26.329 --> 01:40:33.789 how can you heal? You can't. There's always going 01:40:33.789 --> 01:40:35.909 to be, whether it's just this little burr or 01:40:35.909 --> 01:40:38.869 whether it's this gaping dagger in your side, 01:40:39.010 --> 01:40:49.470 you cannot heal. And I made it my mission. to 01:40:49.470 --> 01:40:58.270 say, okay, I need to figure out how I can rebuild 01:40:58.270 --> 01:41:02.550 my life, rebuild my sense of self, and accommodate 01:41:02.550 --> 01:41:06.149 this grief and this pain and this hole. Not make 01:41:06.149 --> 01:41:11.189 it go away, not push it aside, not put flowers 01:41:11.189 --> 01:41:13.189 all over it and pretend like it's not that big 01:41:13.189 --> 01:41:17.250 of a deal. How can I live with it? And honesty. 01:41:18.829 --> 01:41:22.310 is the way. And that includes looking at yourself 01:41:22.310 --> 01:41:25.149 and saying, you know, what could I have done 01:41:25.149 --> 01:41:30.170 differently? Or, you know, what do I know I did 01:41:30.170 --> 01:41:38.489 well and it just didn't work? You know? Honesty 01:41:38.489 --> 01:41:42.390 is essential. And it turns out, all the other 01:41:42.390 --> 01:41:44.130 life -changing things that happen when you lose 01:41:44.130 --> 01:41:50.479 someone, the honesty helps. mend your soul in 01:41:50.479 --> 01:41:56.199 other ways you know do i really i i went through 01:41:56.199 --> 01:41:58.560 a period where i had a tremendous amount of anxiety 01:41:58.560 --> 01:42:01.119 and social anxiety and i was very much at risk 01:42:01.119 --> 01:42:05.800 of becoming homebound and i mean i was effectively 01:42:05.800 --> 01:42:10.000 homebound for for a while but i had to start 01:42:10.000 --> 01:42:13.640 asking myself not do i want to do something but 01:42:13.640 --> 01:42:18.060 can i that's another level of honesty Not do 01:42:18.060 --> 01:42:20.039 I want to go to the grocery store because I don't 01:42:20.039 --> 01:42:21.479 want to go to the grocery store. I don't want 01:42:21.479 --> 01:42:23.180 to ever leave my house. I don't want to see anybody. 01:42:23.579 --> 01:42:26.579 I certainly don't want to take any risks. I don't 01:42:26.579 --> 01:42:32.760 have conversations with anybody. But can I? Very 01:42:32.760 --> 01:42:37.539 different question. And the answer is most of 01:42:37.539 --> 01:42:45.039 the time I can. I can do that. So if you can 01:42:45.039 --> 01:42:51.739 do it. When I think of the guilt and shame, I 01:42:51.739 --> 01:42:54.079 really think there's probably just an underlying 01:42:54.079 --> 01:42:57.100 element of fear that's kind of feeding those 01:42:57.100 --> 01:43:02.260 emotions. When you reflect back now, what were 01:43:02.260 --> 01:43:05.939 the negative stories that you were telling yourself 01:43:05.939 --> 01:43:08.979 about what people would think, air quotes? I 01:43:08.979 --> 01:43:11.260 mean, you ended up being honest from the forefront. 01:43:12.720 --> 01:43:15.520 what was the contrast between the perceived reactions 01:43:15.520 --> 01:43:18.359 of people and the actual reactions of people 01:43:18.359 --> 01:43:28.380 through your honesty i was worried that people 01:43:28.380 --> 01:43:36.279 would think that we had hidden something about 01:43:36.279 --> 01:43:50.069 charlie or about our lives that something malignant 01:43:50.069 --> 01:43:54.529 or disruptive or harmful was happening in our 01:43:54.529 --> 01:44:04.890 family. I was worried that people would question 01:44:04.890 --> 01:44:12.550 my everyday. Honesty, meaning how I operate in 01:44:12.550 --> 01:44:19.369 the world of, you know, being a working mom and 01:44:19.369 --> 01:44:26.829 an involved friend and involved parent that people 01:44:26.829 --> 01:44:40.139 would think that I was fake or covering up. And 01:44:40.139 --> 01:44:46.640 what I had to realize is that it doesn't matter. 01:44:48.600 --> 01:44:50.800 If people think those things, they think those 01:44:50.800 --> 01:44:56.340 things. And I can't control that. And I know 01:44:56.340 --> 01:45:00.300 the truth. And my friends know the truth. And 01:45:00.300 --> 01:45:03.680 I think most people sense the truth. I think 01:45:03.680 --> 01:45:07.000 the overwhelming support that we have had from 01:45:07.000 --> 01:45:15.100 our community. since losing Charlie is partially 01:45:15.100 --> 01:45:18.760 because there's a lot of shock. There's a lot 01:45:18.760 --> 01:45:22.439 of, oh my gosh, that could have been us. And 01:45:22.439 --> 01:45:29.079 so it was a wake up call, but also because I 01:45:29.079 --> 01:45:36.300 hope those around us understand our sincerity. 01:45:39.400 --> 01:45:48.380 And, you know, I haven't. Any shame I feel is 01:45:48.380 --> 01:45:54.619 mine. It's not put on me. Yeah, it's not put 01:45:54.619 --> 01:45:58.680 on me. And there's no no need to feel any shame 01:45:58.680 --> 01:46:00.319 about this. This is the point that we talked 01:46:00.319 --> 01:46:02.520 about with that perfect storm. I mean, this is 01:46:02.520 --> 01:46:05.789 no one knows. Kind of like that smoothie. You 01:46:05.789 --> 01:46:07.529 know, all the different ingredients that go into 01:46:07.529 --> 01:46:10.149 it. You know, that one blueberry was the cause. 01:46:10.250 --> 01:46:11.989 No, it wasn't. It was all the things together. 01:46:13.609 --> 01:46:17.550 When when I think about people that have actually 01:46:17.550 --> 01:46:20.170 survived. So Emma Benoit, again, great example. 01:46:20.329 --> 01:46:22.409 I mean, she's become a beacon of light now for 01:46:22.409 --> 01:46:24.810 other people. But even when people have lost 01:46:24.810 --> 01:46:28.069 someone to suicide, I feel like there's a ripping 01:46:28.069 --> 01:46:31.909 back of the curtain and people now come out from 01:46:31.909 --> 01:46:35.199 their shadows and say, I've been hurting. And 01:46:35.199 --> 01:46:38.420 whether it's like Charlie's tragedy where you've 01:46:38.420 --> 01:46:39.979 lost someone or whether it's someone actually 01:46:39.979 --> 01:46:42.720 able to tell their story, like I almost went 01:46:42.720 --> 01:46:45.539 down that road. It's amazing how many people 01:46:45.539 --> 01:46:47.260 behind closed doors are going through the same 01:46:47.260 --> 01:46:49.399 thing. So what about that element? What did you 01:46:49.399 --> 01:46:52.319 see kind of as the months and years passed as 01:46:52.319 --> 01:46:55.239 far as the enormity of other people's struggles 01:46:55.239 --> 01:46:59.960 too? Well, that's part of why I'm sitting here. 01:47:00.060 --> 01:47:06.159 This is part of why I wrote a book. Right when 01:47:06.159 --> 01:47:13.939 Charlie died, we did in the modern world, which 01:47:13.939 --> 01:47:16.920 is we started posting pictures and memories. 01:47:17.720 --> 01:47:22.600 And I, with no forethought or planning, started 01:47:22.600 --> 01:47:29.760 posting some of my thoughts and feelings and 01:47:29.760 --> 01:47:34.260 just sharing little bits of. what was on my mind 01:47:34.260 --> 01:47:40.500 and what we were experiencing. And we had tremendous 01:47:40.500 --> 01:47:46.659 response, very supportive. And, you know, I don't 01:47:46.659 --> 01:47:48.420 think I'm overly cynical, but there's also a 01:47:48.420 --> 01:47:49.899 part of me that was like, of course, you know, 01:47:49.899 --> 01:47:51.920 we just lost somebody. And so, of course, people 01:47:51.920 --> 01:47:53.579 were saying, oh, thinking of you, praying of 01:47:53.579 --> 01:47:58.479 you. We miss Charlie. He was a great guy. I mean, 01:47:58.500 --> 01:48:00.319 who's going to say anything other than something 01:48:00.319 --> 01:48:03.979 supportive in that situation? And the weeks go 01:48:03.979 --> 01:48:06.239 by and the months go by. And of course, we have 01:48:06.239 --> 01:48:09.739 these beautiful letters and people reaching out 01:48:09.739 --> 01:48:15.619 to us. And I start to notice I'm getting messages 01:48:15.619 --> 01:48:19.500 and letters from people who are sharing their 01:48:19.500 --> 01:48:27.640 stories. And sometimes it's, you know, I've known 01:48:27.640 --> 01:48:35.630 you for 40 years. I've been depressed. I lost 01:48:35.630 --> 01:48:40.029 my marriage. I split up with my husband as a 01:48:40.029 --> 01:48:43.189 result of it. These are the things I have to 01:48:43.189 --> 01:48:48.449 do to cope and get by. Messages from people who've 01:48:48.449 --> 01:48:53.310 said they've been worried about their child. 01:48:55.930 --> 01:49:02.210 One person said that she has a son she was worried 01:49:02.210 --> 01:49:04.899 about. And she was having trouble communicating 01:49:04.899 --> 01:49:11.479 with her husband about, you know, that she thought 01:49:11.479 --> 01:49:13.239 it was serious. And he was a college student. 01:49:13.520 --> 01:49:19.680 And so she read my posts about Charlie to her 01:49:19.680 --> 01:49:23.920 husband. And that is what opened up the conversation 01:49:23.920 --> 01:49:27.359 that she'd been trying to have for some time. 01:49:28.520 --> 01:49:31.159 to say, listen, I think we need to take this 01:49:31.159 --> 01:49:34.220 seriously. And up until that point, the husband 01:49:34.220 --> 01:49:37.560 was, oh, he's fine. Oh, he just needs to keep 01:49:37.560 --> 01:49:40.119 going to class. Oh, he just needs, you know, 01:49:40.180 --> 01:49:42.760 whatever. Because you don't know until you know. 01:49:44.000 --> 01:49:47.880 I had a young woman reach out to me and say, 01:49:48.100 --> 01:49:55.060 I, college student, I have been in therapy for 01:49:55.060 --> 01:50:01.390 a while. And I've been trying to convince my 01:50:01.390 --> 01:50:05.310 mother that I need to be on medication or change 01:50:05.310 --> 01:50:07.449 medication. I'm not, I can't remember which. 01:50:07.689 --> 01:50:10.869 And she has just said, no, no, no, everything's 01:50:10.869 --> 01:50:12.729 fine. Everything's fine. You're doing, you're 01:50:12.729 --> 01:50:18.050 doing fine. But I read your posts to my mom and 01:50:18.050 --> 01:50:22.529 now she says, okay, you know, so like I could 01:50:22.529 --> 01:50:26.439 see how Charlie's. death and our communicating 01:50:26.439 --> 01:50:30.260 about it was helping facilitate conversations. 01:50:30.579 --> 01:50:33.800 And one thing back to the whole how distorted 01:50:33.800 --> 01:50:35.720 your mind can be when you're in that suicidal 01:50:35.720 --> 01:50:41.779 state. One young woman messaged me. And mind 01:50:41.779 --> 01:50:43.760 you, these are not people I'm close to. These 01:50:43.760 --> 01:50:48.060 are like my social media network, like kind of 01:50:48.060 --> 01:50:52.119 the broader edges, right? This young woman messaged 01:50:52.119 --> 01:50:56.420 me and said she had been suicidal for quite some 01:50:56.420 --> 01:51:01.039 time. She had struggled to the point where she 01:51:01.039 --> 01:51:04.979 had planned the time and the place and the method. 01:51:05.039 --> 01:51:13.119 She had the plans. And she read my messages, 01:51:13.239 --> 01:51:17.119 my posts. And she said they helped her realize 01:51:17.119 --> 01:51:24.279 how sad her mother would be if she died. That's 01:51:24.279 --> 01:51:29.680 how distorted your mind gets. Is you think that 01:51:29.680 --> 01:51:36.460 you die and your mother is not going to be sad. 01:51:39.159 --> 01:51:41.819 And she's still with us. That young lady is still 01:51:41.819 --> 01:51:45.609 with us. That's why we have to talk about it. 01:51:45.649 --> 01:51:51.430 If that's the thing that says, oh, maybe I shouldn't 01:51:51.430 --> 01:51:54.930 do that. My mom would be really bummed out. You 01:51:54.930 --> 01:52:00.090 know, if that's what it takes, let's do it. So 01:52:00.090 --> 01:52:05.189 that is, I've heard remarkable stories and not 01:52:05.189 --> 01:52:09.159 even as dramatic. Some just saying, hey, I. realize 01:52:09.159 --> 01:52:11.920 i've never had this hard conversation with my 01:52:11.920 --> 01:52:14.439 kids or my husband or my friend that i've always 01:52:14.439 --> 01:52:16.920 worried about but i've never said anything to 01:52:16.920 --> 01:52:21.380 them so you just say it you just have that conversation 01:52:21.380 --> 01:52:27.979 or you listen you listen differently talking 01:52:27.979 --> 01:52:30.939 about that realization when the young woman read 01:52:30.939 --> 01:52:33.260 it to her or had the realization that her mother 01:52:33.260 --> 01:52:35.500 would be sad i think this is one of the things 01:52:36.119 --> 01:52:38.699 Going back to how we described that distorted 01:52:38.699 --> 01:52:41.819 reality that I feel needs to be front and center 01:52:41.819 --> 01:52:45.100 in these conversations on the posters is if you 01:52:45.100 --> 01:52:47.359 start believing that you're a burden to the people 01:52:47.359 --> 01:52:50.340 you love. I think that's a big red flag that's 01:52:50.340 --> 01:52:52.739 being waved, but it's not what we talk about. 01:52:52.939 --> 01:52:56.260 It's like, oh, if you're sad all the time, call 01:52:56.260 --> 01:52:59.420 this number. With all due respect, a lot of these 01:52:59.420 --> 01:53:01.500 people are not going to want to call a number 01:53:01.500 --> 01:53:04.159 by this point. If you can get into, as you said, 01:53:04.180 --> 01:53:07.149 Charlie did once. fantastic but if if you're 01:53:07.149 --> 01:53:10.010 hearing if you yourself have the the strength 01:53:10.010 --> 01:53:13.210 still to start hearing this voice and go oh you 01:53:13.210 --> 01:53:15.489 know this is this is what they told me about 01:53:15.489 --> 01:53:18.750 and then start asking for help that's amazing 01:53:18.750 --> 01:53:21.369 but i think it's also for everyone around that 01:53:21.369 --> 01:53:23.710 person if they start saying i'm a piece of shit 01:53:23.710 --> 01:53:26.189 you know and the reason you know my kids are 01:53:26.189 --> 01:53:28.840 scared of me whatever the thing is That is that 01:53:28.840 --> 01:53:31.100 distorted reality rearing its head. And that's 01:53:31.100 --> 01:53:33.060 the time for you to really, if you haven't before, 01:53:33.300 --> 01:53:35.819 say, hey, you know, we need to go sit down and 01:53:35.819 --> 01:53:39.460 have a talk because, you know, that's not right. 01:53:39.699 --> 01:53:41.760 And be able to pull them back into reality and 01:53:41.760 --> 01:53:44.560 find the healing modalities. As I mentioned, 01:53:44.680 --> 01:53:48.000 there are so many from equine therapy to MDMA 01:53:48.000 --> 01:53:51.840 to find your own unique toolbox too. I think 01:53:51.840 --> 01:53:53.939 this is another discouraging thing is some of 01:53:53.939 --> 01:53:57.029 these men and women and children. have the courage 01:53:57.029 --> 01:53:59.189 to say, I'm hurting. They get put in front of 01:53:59.189 --> 01:54:01.930 a counselor who's not the right match. It makes 01:54:01.930 --> 01:54:03.909 it worse. And they're like, well, I must be crazy 01:54:03.909 --> 01:54:06.289 then. And then I've sadly, I think that was the 01:54:06.289 --> 01:54:08.489 final nail in a lot of coffins rather than being 01:54:08.489 --> 01:54:11.729 told, look, there is such a diverse toolbox. 01:54:12.029 --> 01:54:14.569 You could go and do a canoeing retreat with a 01:54:14.569 --> 01:54:17.529 bunch of special forces guys, or you can, you 01:54:17.529 --> 01:54:19.689 know, the dogs, I know you lost your dog. I mean, 01:54:19.689 --> 01:54:22.470 my, I was. devastated when i lost my dog but 01:54:22.470 --> 01:54:24.689 that was one of the most healing things as my 01:54:24.689 --> 01:54:26.750 german shepherd and you start collecting all 01:54:26.750 --> 01:54:29.949 these little pieces that perfect storm of ill 01:54:29.949 --> 01:54:31.609 health that you went on well it's the reverse 01:54:31.609 --> 01:54:34.909 you can create your own jigsaw puzzle of what 01:54:34.909 --> 01:54:37.569 works for you and it's fluid as you start healing 01:54:37.569 --> 01:54:40.010 from some things now you might find other things 01:54:40.010 --> 01:54:43.119 you know nurturing but You've got to give people 01:54:43.119 --> 01:54:45.220 this hope that, you know, A, this is distorted 01:54:45.220 --> 01:54:48.079 reality and B, that you can not only come out 01:54:48.079 --> 01:54:50.439 the other side, but I would argue, again, listening 01:54:50.439 --> 01:54:53.640 to all these stories, you know, Charlie 2 .0 01:54:53.640 --> 01:54:56.880 would have been even stronger and more empathetic 01:54:56.880 --> 01:54:59.840 had he been able to navigate that because he's, 01:54:59.920 --> 01:55:02.079 you know, he can now say, I've been there and 01:55:02.079 --> 01:55:04.039 let me help you kind of, you know, walk your 01:55:04.039 --> 01:55:05.420 way through. And all these people would have 01:55:05.420 --> 01:55:06.939 come out the woodwork and said, Charlie, how 01:55:06.939 --> 01:55:09.939 did you do it? And so I think we honor the Charlies 01:55:09.939 --> 01:55:13.529 of the world. by trying to educate people on 01:55:13.529 --> 01:55:15.789 the warning signs and the contributing factors, 01:55:16.050 --> 01:55:18.609 but then also give them hope to be like, look, 01:55:18.670 --> 01:55:22.329 there are so many things that you can do. And 01:55:22.329 --> 01:55:23.949 you've tried three of them and it didn't work, 01:55:24.069 --> 01:55:25.689 but maybe number four was the thing that was 01:55:25.689 --> 01:55:31.649 missing. Absolutely. And I think particularly 01:55:31.649 --> 01:55:42.579 for men and even young men, understanding all 01:55:42.579 --> 01:55:46.319 the different tools, that it's not just laying 01:55:46.319 --> 01:55:52.920 on a sofa, pouring out your emotions. And that 01:55:52.920 --> 01:55:56.060 there are things that can be quite comfortable 01:55:56.060 --> 01:56:02.279 and even feel really good, you know, especially 01:56:02.279 --> 01:56:05.279 when you talk about anything having to do with 01:56:05.279 --> 01:56:09.619 animals or outdoors. you know physical i mean 01:56:09.619 --> 01:56:14.220 it's huge i mean i just as a matter of routine 01:56:14.220 --> 01:56:17.359 i just walk outside in my yard and walk around 01:56:17.359 --> 01:56:20.739 feel the grass on my feet and let the sun on 01:56:20.739 --> 01:56:24.600 my face and i mean it's you know doesn't solve 01:56:24.600 --> 01:56:28.699 everything but it it's nice and and i think one 01:56:28.699 --> 01:56:31.859 of the things that i didn't fully appreciate 01:56:31.859 --> 01:56:35.479 until i started really diving in to try and understand 01:56:36.760 --> 01:56:39.260 Because I've had depression on and off my life. 01:56:39.279 --> 01:56:42.800 I've had anxiety. It's been treated, you know, 01:56:42.800 --> 01:56:48.279 different ways, talk therapy, medication. I think 01:56:48.279 --> 01:56:53.579 my darkest moments have come when I felt trapped. 01:56:55.779 --> 01:57:04.800 And that trap is not real, right? And yeah, sometimes 01:57:04.800 --> 01:57:07.260 we get ourselves in situations where we feel 01:57:07.260 --> 01:57:10.340 like there's no way out, but there is always, 01:57:10.460 --> 01:57:14.380 always a way out. That doesn't mean it's necessarily 01:57:14.380 --> 01:57:17.119 easy. It doesn't mean it's anything you want 01:57:17.119 --> 01:57:20.760 to do, but there is always a way out. And I think 01:57:20.760 --> 01:57:24.520 that, you know, I mean, we don't, we won't know 01:57:24.520 --> 01:57:26.520 what was going on in Charlie's mind. We don't 01:57:26.520 --> 01:57:28.619 know what's going on in the minds of people who, 01:57:28.659 --> 01:57:35.079 you know, die by suicide, but. That it makes 01:57:35.079 --> 01:57:40.079 sense to me that that sense of there's nothing 01:57:40.079 --> 01:57:46.840 else I can do. I have no other avenues. So I'm 01:57:46.840 --> 01:57:50.119 going to take this one, this awful, deadly, permanent 01:57:50.119 --> 01:57:54.779 one. That's again, it's distorted thinking, but 01:57:54.779 --> 01:57:59.810 it's that feeling of. I will never be happy. 01:57:59.930 --> 01:58:02.149 I will never have the relationship I want. I 01:58:02.149 --> 01:58:03.890 will never have the life I want. I will never 01:58:03.890 --> 01:58:06.630 have the, you know, freedom I want. I will never, 01:58:06.670 --> 01:58:09.310 you know, whatever it is, the health I want, 01:58:09.409 --> 01:58:15.869 the success and feeling trapped by that. And 01:58:15.869 --> 01:58:23.489 that can tip people over. And it's kind of like 01:58:23.489 --> 01:58:26.909 we were saying. you know, about expectations 01:58:26.909 --> 01:58:29.149 for ourselves and what's really driving us and 01:58:29.149 --> 01:58:31.369 making us happy. I mean, anything that is powerful 01:58:31.369 --> 01:58:34.810 enough to trap us is also powerful enough to 01:58:34.810 --> 01:58:39.069 set us free. Absolutely. I think this is the, 01:58:39.210 --> 01:58:43.590 in my world, the mental health conversation has 01:58:43.590 --> 01:58:45.869 always been, oh, we got to smash the stigma. 01:58:45.890 --> 01:58:48.050 The last, you know, eight, nine years, that's 01:58:48.050 --> 01:58:50.529 kind of been the rhetoric. And, you know, what 01:58:50.529 --> 01:58:54.350 I've said is that, yes. But okay, imagine stigma 01:58:54.350 --> 01:58:57.329 smashed. Has it actually fixed anything? Really? 01:58:57.470 --> 01:59:00.109 No, maybe just maybe you've given a little bit 01:59:00.109 --> 01:59:01.909 more opportunity for people to reach out, but 01:59:01.909 --> 01:59:04.350 you haven't actually talked about solutions. 01:59:04.430 --> 01:59:06.649 Like you said, I mean, in the first responder 01:59:06.649 --> 01:59:08.649 professions, they're literally in the VA. They're 01:59:08.649 --> 01:59:12.310 usually offered pills and talk therapy is pretty 01:59:12.310 --> 01:59:14.569 much it. And it's expanding more as people are 01:59:14.569 --> 01:59:16.989 starting to kind of light the fires of some of 01:59:16.989 --> 01:59:20.680 these other healing modalities. But I think where 01:59:20.680 --> 01:59:24.079 we've really failed is to talk about post -traumatic 01:59:24.079 --> 01:59:26.159 growth. I mean, you're a perfect example. You 01:59:26.159 --> 01:59:27.720 know, if I'd spoken to you a couple of years 01:59:27.720 --> 01:59:29.180 ago, I'm sure it would have been a very different 01:59:29.180 --> 01:59:32.000 conversation. But it doesn't mean that the pain 01:59:32.000 --> 01:59:34.579 isn't still there. It doesn't mean that you don't 01:59:34.579 --> 01:59:37.399 have highs and lows. But now you've become a 01:59:37.399 --> 01:59:41.079 beacon of light for others. And so getting people 01:59:41.079 --> 01:59:43.239 to understand, oh, no, you're not going to just 01:59:43.239 --> 01:59:45.479 be okay. That's not the point. And this is why 01:59:45.479 --> 01:59:50.020 I think. Sometimes we do a disservice when we're 01:59:50.020 --> 01:59:52.300 out there saying, I'm living with my whatever, 01:59:52.460 --> 01:59:56.560 and it's a very sad story. I think that you haven't 01:59:56.560 --> 01:59:58.500 gone far enough yet. I know it's easy for me 01:59:58.500 --> 02:00:02.199 to say sitting here, but I think that metamorphosis, 02:00:02.319 --> 02:00:06.079 that 2 .0 version of yourself, and I always liken 02:00:06.079 --> 02:00:08.899 it to the, I forget the term, but when the Japanese 02:00:08.899 --> 02:00:11.539 fixed the broken pottery with gold glue. I mean, 02:00:11.560 --> 02:00:15.079 that's who you are now. That needs to be the 02:00:15.079 --> 02:00:19.090 conversation. So people are actually driven to 02:00:19.090 --> 02:00:21.069 do the healing because they're like, no, no, 02:00:21.090 --> 02:00:23.750 no. I'm looking at you now on the other side 02:00:23.750 --> 02:00:27.010 and you're even stronger than you ever been in 02:00:27.010 --> 02:00:30.020 your entire life. That is you. You just got to 02:00:30.020 --> 02:00:32.260 keep going, find the right tools, find the right 02:00:32.260 --> 02:00:34.720 path, accumulate the people that will hold your 02:00:34.720 --> 02:00:37.159 hand through this. And then one day you're going 02:00:37.159 --> 02:00:39.020 to be holding other people's hands and telling 02:00:39.020 --> 02:00:40.840 them, hey, I've been in that dark forest and 02:00:40.840 --> 02:00:43.520 I'm going to lead you out. But if it's very doom 02:00:43.520 --> 02:00:45.300 and gloom and, you know, you got your therapy 02:00:45.300 --> 02:00:47.439 dog everywhere you go, which, again, absolutely 02:00:47.439 --> 02:00:49.939 has an application. But that's kind of presented 02:00:49.939 --> 02:00:52.739 to us now in my profession. This is a firefighter 02:00:52.739 --> 02:00:55.380 with PTSD. He's got his dog. He's got his, you 02:00:55.380 --> 02:00:57.439 know, retirement benefits, whatever the thing 02:00:57.439 --> 02:01:00.569 is. And I think that. that is not the best messaging. 02:01:00.649 --> 02:01:03.069 Some people may stop there and I get it, but 02:01:03.069 --> 02:01:05.989 so many people I think can progress so much further. 02:01:06.090 --> 02:01:09.750 And that makes going through that dark place 02:01:09.750 --> 02:01:12.590 exciting. If you know that there's a better version 02:01:12.590 --> 02:01:17.930 on the way on the other side. You know, I, I've 02:01:17.930 --> 02:01:25.890 learned, or I've realized that, you know, so 02:01:25.890 --> 02:01:32.739 you lose someone, you have a trauma, And it throws 02:01:32.739 --> 02:01:37.180 you off in every way. And you think the point 02:01:37.180 --> 02:01:40.640 is to get back to some sense of normalcy so that 02:01:40.640 --> 02:01:47.659 you can carry on. But the fact is, even before 02:01:47.659 --> 02:01:52.359 that trauma or that loss, you were never meant 02:01:52.359 --> 02:01:57.260 to be in one place and never evolve and grow. 02:01:57.399 --> 02:02:06.609 Life is. always, always changing. I mean, we 02:02:06.609 --> 02:02:10.210 grow up as people, we have our education, we 02:02:10.210 --> 02:02:13.149 have our families, we have our careers, we have 02:02:13.149 --> 02:02:16.989 our arts and our passions and our hobbies and 02:02:16.989 --> 02:02:21.390 our community, and it is always changing. So 02:02:21.390 --> 02:02:27.420 to think that after a trauma, or an illness or 02:02:27.420 --> 02:02:32.840 a loss, that the point is to just get on steady 02:02:32.840 --> 02:02:35.960 ground so you can keep walking on a treadmill, 02:02:36.260 --> 02:02:42.380 that's ignoring your basic existence as a human 02:02:42.380 --> 02:02:46.399 your whole life. You were always meant to be 02:02:46.399 --> 02:02:50.539 moving forward. And maybe it's fast, maybe it's 02:02:50.539 --> 02:02:53.960 slow. Maybe it looks a lot different than you 02:02:53.960 --> 02:02:56.600 thought it would. but you're always trying to 02:02:56.600 --> 02:03:01.920 move forward and all this this trauma or this 02:03:01.920 --> 02:03:06.479 pain that you experienced did was scramble that 02:03:06.479 --> 02:03:11.140 journey it's all it did and you're walking forward 02:03:11.140 --> 02:03:15.140 with different tools different experiences different 02:03:15.140 --> 02:03:22.399 you know wisdom and strengths but it's but you've 02:03:22.399 --> 02:03:25.550 got to keep moving i mean You know, the cliche 02:03:25.550 --> 02:03:28.289 is, you know, when you retire, you don't stop 02:03:28.289 --> 02:03:31.930 living because you stop working. I mean, right. 02:03:32.069 --> 02:03:36.310 You know, so why would we, why would we ever 02:03:36.310 --> 02:03:38.710 say, okay, well, I'm just now going to have my, 02:03:38.710 --> 02:03:43.149 my, you know, my therapy dog and my retirement 02:03:43.149 --> 02:03:48.430 income and just sit. You weren't meant to do 02:03:48.430 --> 02:03:50.390 that anyway, whether all that stuff had happened 02:03:50.390 --> 02:03:55.739 to you before anyway. Yeah, I agree 100%. Well, 02:03:55.819 --> 02:03:58.819 speaking of tools that are out there, you mentioned 02:03:58.819 --> 02:04:01.159 about making posts, you know, about, you know, 02:04:01.159 --> 02:04:02.840 how you were feeling and some of the kind of 02:04:02.840 --> 02:04:04.619 perspectives that you had as you progress through 02:04:04.619 --> 02:04:08.060 the grief journey. Talk to me about how that 02:04:08.060 --> 02:04:10.520 writing has morphed into the book Blackbird. 02:04:16.300 --> 02:04:19.960 I realized how helpful writing was to me to try 02:04:19.960 --> 02:04:23.939 and understand my grief and pain and shame. Very 02:04:23.939 --> 02:04:27.159 common. A lot of people turn to writing, whether 02:04:27.159 --> 02:04:33.399 it's journaling or poetry or stories. And there's 02:04:33.399 --> 02:04:36.699 a reason for that. I think that sometimes things 02:04:36.699 --> 02:04:40.319 that are in our mind and our brain that are very 02:04:40.319 --> 02:04:46.189 tangled and thorny can be unwound on paper. maybe 02:04:46.189 --> 02:04:50.649 a little more safely and easily. And so this 02:04:50.649 --> 02:04:55.069 helped me. And I also realized, so I'm a big 02:04:55.069 --> 02:05:01.869 reader. I love to consume books of all types, 02:05:01.970 --> 02:05:06.550 all formats. And so when I was really deep in 02:05:06.550 --> 02:05:11.289 my grief, I naturally turned to books to try 02:05:11.289 --> 02:05:14.199 and understand what was going on with me. and 02:05:14.199 --> 02:05:19.979 in my body and my mind and my soul and um there's 02:05:19.979 --> 02:05:23.739 a lot out there it is a very well covered field 02:05:23.739 --> 02:05:26.239 because this is part of the human experience 02:05:26.239 --> 02:05:34.979 loss death shock and yet a couple of things happened 02:05:34.979 --> 02:05:39.159 um One, I was grieving, so I had no attention 02:05:39.159 --> 02:05:41.840 span. My brain was literally scrambled eggs. 02:05:41.920 --> 02:05:45.819 I could not talk. I could not speak clearly, 02:05:46.039 --> 02:05:49.300 make decisions, certainly couldn't handle complex 02:05:49.300 --> 02:05:54.060 topics. And I couldn't focus. When you're grieving, 02:05:54.239 --> 02:05:58.600 when you're in deep grief, your brain does not 02:05:58.600 --> 02:06:05.279 function. Literally, it does not work. And so 02:06:05.279 --> 02:06:08.619 I would pick up a book and I couldn't focus on 02:06:08.619 --> 02:06:10.420 the page, but I was hungry for the information. 02:06:11.300 --> 02:06:14.960 And then I also realized that for grief anyway, 02:06:15.220 --> 02:06:19.859 books seem to fall into a couple of categories. 02:06:20.020 --> 02:06:23.260 One are self -help. So those are written by experts. 02:06:23.460 --> 02:06:26.060 They could be spiritual experts. They could be 02:06:26.060 --> 02:06:29.989 psychologists. They could be psychiatrists. Even 02:06:29.989 --> 02:06:33.350 people who deal with nutrition and outdoors. 02:06:33.409 --> 02:06:37.449 And it's like there's always a focus of a topic 02:06:37.449 --> 02:06:40.289 that this expert has dedicated their life to 02:06:40.289 --> 02:06:41.689 and they want to share what they know and they 02:06:41.689 --> 02:06:47.170 want to say, do this and it'll help you. Or you 02:06:47.170 --> 02:06:49.649 have memoirs, which are great because those are 02:06:49.649 --> 02:06:53.569 the personal stories, the human experience. We 02:06:53.569 --> 02:06:57.189 see each other in other stories, right? We can 02:06:57.189 --> 02:07:01.260 relate. hopefully, through that connection and 02:07:01.260 --> 02:07:04.840 go, oh, me too, right? Very powerful. The problem 02:07:04.840 --> 02:07:10.359 is when you are in a deep grief state or when 02:07:10.359 --> 02:07:13.600 you're going through trauma, and my therapist 02:07:13.600 --> 02:07:16.260 is a trauma therapist, not a grief therapist, 02:07:16.279 --> 02:07:19.460 because it is traumatic to lose a child to suicide. 02:07:19.779 --> 02:07:26.939 It's traumatic to lose a child. I could not. 02:07:28.810 --> 02:07:31.770 take all that information. I could not, I didn't, 02:07:31.770 --> 02:07:37.109 I was very selfish in my grief. I didn't care 02:07:37.109 --> 02:07:40.250 about someone's life history in a bio, right? 02:07:40.890 --> 02:07:44.090 I didn't care about what happened to them 20 02:07:44.090 --> 02:07:47.050 years ago and how it led them to this point where 02:07:47.050 --> 02:07:48.729 they're experiencing what I'm supposed to be 02:07:48.729 --> 02:07:51.010 trying to relate to. I wanted to know what was 02:07:51.010 --> 02:07:56.050 happening to me at that moment and how am I supposed 02:07:56.050 --> 02:08:00.819 to go forward? And so, As I wrote, I started 02:08:00.819 --> 02:08:04.239 to organize and assemble what became my book, 02:08:04.260 --> 02:08:08.119 Blackbird. And I was very intentional about writing 02:08:08.119 --> 02:08:13.699 it not as a memoir or a biography. It is not 02:08:13.699 --> 02:08:15.840 Charlie's life story. It is not my life story. 02:08:16.199 --> 02:08:22.180 It is what happened to us and how I got through 02:08:22.180 --> 02:08:27.970 for about 18, 15 months. It is intentionally 02:08:27.970 --> 02:08:32.130 written in short passages. Some are very short, 02:08:32.189 --> 02:08:34.750 just a line or two. The longest would be like 02:08:34.750 --> 02:08:38.130 two pages, kind of writing a story or an essay 02:08:38.130 --> 02:08:40.170 that's pulling on a lot of different things. 02:08:40.869 --> 02:08:46.989 And it's observations, it's reactions, it's conflict, 02:08:47.409 --> 02:08:52.289 it's, you know, big thoughts, it's little thoughts, 02:08:52.409 --> 02:08:57.529 and it's meant to be put down. It's heavy. It's 02:08:57.529 --> 02:09:00.890 about what happens, you know, in the worst thing 02:09:00.890 --> 02:09:05.649 that I have ever experienced. It's a lot to take 02:09:05.649 --> 02:09:09.810 in. And I wanted to make it easy for the reader 02:09:09.810 --> 02:09:12.689 to be able to read something very heavy and serious 02:09:12.689 --> 02:09:16.470 and put it down and walk away from it and not 02:09:16.470 --> 02:09:19.770 have to remember characters or timelines or settings. 02:09:20.699 --> 02:09:25.979 and um or rules and studies and science and things 02:09:25.979 --> 02:09:31.399 so put it down pick it up so you can understand 02:09:31.399 --> 02:09:38.239 it when you're ready but that also didn't shy 02:09:38.239 --> 02:09:40.399 away from the hard facts didn't shy away from 02:09:40.399 --> 02:09:44.420 the hard emotions that that faced the contradictions 02:09:44.420 --> 02:09:48.640 and the confusion that laid bare the shame because 02:09:48.640 --> 02:09:51.649 as a parent who's going through this i don't 02:09:51.649 --> 02:09:53.350 want anybody else to go through this i don't 02:09:53.350 --> 02:09:57.550 want anybody to ever have to be in a situation 02:09:57.550 --> 02:10:00.329 where they have they're trying to figure out 02:10:00.329 --> 02:10:01.949 how to pick up their life after someone they 02:10:01.949 --> 02:10:08.069 love has died by suicide so the more honest and 02:10:08.069 --> 02:10:12.529 forthcoming you be about the realities of those 02:10:12.529 --> 02:10:18.590 situations i i hope will will help people avoid 02:10:18.590 --> 02:10:23.529 this being in this situation and so um it is 02:10:23.529 --> 02:10:32.029 blackbird is designed to be um consumed at your 02:10:32.029 --> 02:10:35.170 own pace without having to get lost in backstory 02:10:35.170 --> 02:10:40.869 or explanations and and but it does move forward 02:10:40.869 --> 02:10:44.090 because we must always be moving forward and 02:10:44.090 --> 02:10:46.739 there are through lines and the story's still 02:10:46.739 --> 02:10:52.399 going on but i i think it ends on a reasonably 02:10:52.399 --> 02:10:57.260 optimistic note also dark humor do not want to 02:10:57.260 --> 02:11:01.239 underestimate the importance of dark humor um 02:11:01.239 --> 02:11:04.699 it's been very helpful so you know there's some 02:11:04.699 --> 02:11:08.380 pretty absurd things happen and um we put that 02:11:08.380 --> 02:11:11.550 all out there too Well, I said this to you before 02:11:11.550 --> 02:11:14.250 we hit recording. It was beautifully written 02:11:14.250 --> 02:11:18.210 as well. And what I mean by that is, as I learned 02:11:18.210 --> 02:11:20.130 trying to write, you know, navigate my books, 02:11:20.270 --> 02:11:24.350 you have to use, you know, grammar and vocabulary 02:11:24.350 --> 02:11:26.710 in a certain way to really pull that raw emotion 02:11:26.710 --> 02:11:29.270 that you obviously especially are feeling so 02:11:29.270 --> 02:11:32.350 deeply and, you know, allow the person reading 02:11:32.350 --> 02:11:35.569 it to receive that. But it's not just a bunch 02:11:35.569 --> 02:11:38.189 of scribble. It's not just, you know, Instagram 02:11:38.189 --> 02:11:40.939 posts. It's actually... written in a way where 02:11:40.939 --> 02:11:43.920 you can feel each of those little moments and 02:11:43.920 --> 02:11:46.060 even like you said the kind of bite -sized pieces 02:11:46.060 --> 02:11:50.359 the first one i wrote was only 180 pages and 02:11:50.359 --> 02:11:52.180 i think there was i should know this i wrote 02:11:52.180 --> 02:11:54.279 the damn thing but i think it was 16 chapters 02:11:54.279 --> 02:11:57.479 and i wrote it for the sleep deprived firefighter 02:11:57.479 --> 02:12:00.140 you know they don't want to read a 500 page book 02:12:00.140 --> 02:12:03.079 they can't read a 500 page book so whether it's 02:12:03.079 --> 02:12:05.510 that or whether it's grief This is, you know, 02:12:05.529 --> 02:12:07.430 you can, as you said, just open it and be like, 02:12:07.510 --> 02:12:09.229 all right, this is the takeaway today. I'm going 02:12:09.229 --> 02:12:12.590 to read two pages of Blackbird. But like you 02:12:12.590 --> 02:12:14.310 said, you're immediately able to jump in. It's 02:12:14.310 --> 02:12:16.489 not like you've got to go back now and, you know, 02:12:16.489 --> 02:12:20.510 who was the murderer again? Right, exactly. It's 02:12:20.510 --> 02:12:23.789 exactly like you said. What conversation upset 02:12:23.789 --> 02:12:28.050 them? And yeah, no. And I, as the writing exercise 02:12:28.050 --> 02:12:30.029 part of it, I thought was really good for me. 02:12:30.869 --> 02:12:33.010 You know, I would write something out and it 02:12:33.010 --> 02:12:37.130 would be. three pages and i would say get this 02:12:37.130 --> 02:12:41.289 down to three paragraphs what is the most essential 02:12:41.289 --> 02:12:44.869 thing that a reader needs to know the only thing 02:12:44.869 --> 02:12:48.050 they need to know and and that's when you're 02:12:48.050 --> 02:12:51.100 talking about emotion there's this The sense 02:12:51.100 --> 02:12:55.079 that we need to just carry on and flow and, you 02:12:55.079 --> 02:12:58.819 know, wallow in it. And trust me, I was wallowing. 02:12:59.199 --> 02:13:04.060 But like, how can you find the words to, you 02:13:04.060 --> 02:13:08.800 know, really be as powerful as possible? My dog 02:13:08.800 --> 02:13:15.380 is joining. Yeah, no problem. So people listening, 02:13:15.439 --> 02:13:20.350 then where can they find the book? The book is 02:13:20.350 --> 02:13:23.310 available anywhere books are sold and certainly 02:13:23.310 --> 02:13:30.750 online at Amazon and barnesandnoble .com. You're 02:13:30.750 --> 02:13:33.590 fine. The thing about this podcast, it's just 02:13:33.590 --> 02:13:35.470 two people having the conversation. It's never 02:13:35.470 --> 02:13:38.890 meant to be in a studio. So doorbells ring, dogs 02:13:38.890 --> 02:13:44.109 bark. We're almost done. Almost done. Hey, Bonnie. 02:13:45.250 --> 02:13:50.699 Hush. I'll ask the question again so we can loop 02:13:50.699 --> 02:13:54.439 it in. Okay. So for people listening, where can 02:13:54.439 --> 02:13:58.760 they find the book? Blackbird is available anywhere 02:13:58.760 --> 02:14:03.079 that books are sold. Amazon, barnesandnoble .com, 02:14:03.220 --> 02:14:07.359 bookshop .org, which is great for helping independent 02:14:07.359 --> 02:14:10.479 bookstores. You could also go into a brick and 02:14:10.479 --> 02:14:15.720 mortar store and order it there. And I have a 02:14:15.720 --> 02:14:21.199 website. blackbirdbetsy .com and you can order 02:14:21.199 --> 02:14:23.960 the book directly through the website for a bit 02:14:23.960 --> 02:14:26.000 of a discount. The link is right there on the 02:14:26.000 --> 02:14:29.739 page. And then you mentioned about social media 02:14:29.739 --> 02:14:31.399 platforms. Where are the best places to find 02:14:31.399 --> 02:14:38.899 you? Probably most active on Instagram, blackbirdbetsy21 02:14:38.899 --> 02:14:43.340 on Instagram. Brilliant. Well, I want to thank 02:14:43.340 --> 02:14:45.020 you so much. We've been talking for over two 02:14:45.020 --> 02:14:48.020 hours now and I want to be mindful of your time, 02:14:48.079 --> 02:14:50.899 but it's just been such an important conversation. 02:14:51.100 --> 02:14:53.520 I mean, you know, your kind of journey itself, 02:14:53.579 --> 02:14:56.979 but then obviously Charlie and what you did with 02:14:56.979 --> 02:14:59.180 that grief. I mean, it can be buried down. You 02:14:59.180 --> 02:15:01.359 can kind of keep, keep it secret of what even 02:15:01.359 --> 02:15:04.739 happened and it doesn't bring solutions to the 02:15:04.739 --> 02:15:06.739 problem then. And like you said, that ends up 02:15:06.739 --> 02:15:10.149 kind of steeping within the family as well. Being 02:15:10.149 --> 02:15:12.609 so courageously vulnerable with your story and 02:15:12.609 --> 02:15:15.289 then allowing other people to learn from the 02:15:15.289 --> 02:15:17.449 experiences that you've had through Blackbird 02:15:17.449 --> 02:15:19.909 has been a really powerful conversation. So I 02:15:19.909 --> 02:15:22.109 want to thank you so, so much for being so generous 02:15:22.109 --> 02:15:24.189 with your time and coming on the Behind the Shield 02:15:24.189 --> 02:15:28.319 podcast today. Thank you. And thank you for what 02:15:28.319 --> 02:15:31.359 you're doing to be a channel and a megaphone 02:15:31.359 --> 02:15:36.880 for helping people tell their stories. It's so 02:15:36.880 --> 02:15:39.140 important to meet people where they are. And 02:15:39.140 --> 02:15:42.800 clearly you are, you know, you are connecting 02:15:42.800 --> 02:15:46.659 with people and hopefully that will make a difference.