This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran
-owned and operated performance optimization
company that I introduced recently as a sponsor
on this show. Well, since then I have actually
been using my products and I have had incredible
success. There was initial blood work that was
extremely detailed and based on that they offered
supplementation. So I began taking DHEA. bpc
157 for inflammation based on the fact that i've
been a stuntman a martial artist and a firefighter
my whole life lots of aches and pains dihexa
to help cognition after multiple punches to the
head and shift work and peptides four months
later they did a detailed blood work again and
i was actually able to taper off two of the peptides
because my body had responded so well to just
one of them that it was optimized at that point
So I cannot speak highly enough of the immense
range of supplementation that they offer, whether
it's male health, female health, peptides to
boost your own testosterone, which I would argue
is needed by a lot of the fire service, or whether
it's exogenous testosterone needed, especially
after TBIs or advanced age. Now, as I mentioned
before, the other side of this company is an
altruistic arm called the Transcend Foundation,
which is putting veterans and first responders
through some of their protocols free of charge.
Now, Transcend are also offering you, the audience,
10 % off their protocols. And you can find that
on jamesgearing .com under the Products tab.
And if you want to hear more about Transcend
and their story, listen to episode 808 with the
founder, Ernie Colling. or go to transcendcompany
.com. This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr,
yet another company that's doing great things
for the first responder community. As a strength
and conditioning coach myself, who also trains
tactical athletes, dissemination of wellness
information is one of the biggest challenges.
Now, TeamBuildr is the premier strength and
conditioning software for tactical athletes.
And there are several features that really impress
me. Firstly, there is a full exercise library.
So you, the personal trainer, does not have to
create that within your own department. Secondly,
you can send out programming, but also individualize,
which I love. So you blanket program for everyone.
Now you can tweak based on someone's injury,
someone's need to maybe drop some body composition,
rather than having to write a program for every
single person on their own. TeamBuildr also
allows you to build custom questionnaires to
collate health and wellness data. It integrates
with wearables. And I think one of the most important
things is obviously it tracks. To me, it's imperative
that we as a profession start tracking our people
from day one and then over the full span of their
career, therefore catching potential wellness
issues and injuries before they happen. Now,
if you want to try TeamBuildr, they are offering
you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast,
a free 14 -day trial to experience all of the
features. And if you want to take a deeper dive
into Team Builder, listen to episode 1032 with
Melissa Mercado or go to teambuildr .com. And
I'll spell that to you because it's not as you
think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome
to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,
my name is James Gearing and this week it is
my absolute honor to welcome on the show communications
consultant and the author of Blackbird, A Mother's
Reflection on Grief, Loss, and Life After Suicide,
Betsy Thibault Stevenson. So we discuss a host
of topics from her journey into the world of
communications, ethical storytelling, losing
her son Charlie, navigating grief, writing a
book that would help others with this issue,
and so much more. Now, before we get to this
incredible conversation, as I say every week,
please just take a moment. Go to whichever app
you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,
leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single
five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,
therefore making it easier for others to find.
And this is a free library of well over 1 ,000
episodes now. So all I ask in return is that
you help share these incredible men and women's
stories so I can get them to every single person
on planet Earth who needs to hear them. So with
that being said, I introduce to you Betsy Thibault
Stevenson. Enjoy. Well, Betsy, I want to start
by saying two things. Firstly, thank you to Karina,
to Samartino, who connected us originally. And
secondly, I want to welcome you onto the Behind
the Shield podcast today. Thank you very much
for having me. So where on planet Earth are we
finding you this afternoon? I am in Alexandria,
Virginia, which is right outside Washington,
D .C. Brilliant. Well, I would love to start
at the beginning of your timeline first, and
obviously then we'll progress into your family
and the events that we're going to be discussing
today. But tell me where you were born and tell
me a little bit about your family dynamic, what
your parents did, how many siblings. Sure. I
was born and raised in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
I have one. sister and I have a stepsister and
a stepbrother. My parents, so I grew up in South
Louisiana with my family and then my mom left
when I was 10 and my sister was seven and she
moved to Colorado. And so my sister and I spent
a lot of time going back and forth. If you can
think about the differences between Louisiana
and Colorado, particularly in the 70s, it was
quite a different world. And so I went to school,
had my friends and activities and life and family
in Baton Rouge. And then as soon as school's
out, you... went off to colorado which was glorious
um and certainly had a lot of um really unique
experiences and freedoms in the mountains that
we we couldn't replicate in in louisiana but
i also was leaving my friends behind which became
a bigger and bigger issue as i got older you
know when i was 10 11 12 you know it was a little
easier and then by high school it was a bit of
a strain which isn't to say i didn't love it
but i didn't know anybody who had a life any
thing remotely resembling mine just starting
with the fact that if um parents divorced which
um that again in the 70s in louisiana was becoming
more common but wasn't necessarily a common thing
but um Kids were always raised by their mothers
and we were raised by our father. And again,
a lot of upsides to that for all of us have a
great relationship with my mother. That was never
the issue. But, you know, you look around and
you don't see anybody like you. Right. And that's
the core. No matter who you are, where you grew
up, what your situation is, you want to see people
like you. I didn't know anybody like me. My dad
remarried when I was in high school and my step
siblings moved into the house. And so we were
four of four kids, two adults living very much
a Brady Bunch lifestyle. And luckily, the four
kids all got along really well. I was the oldest,
so I was probably the most removed from the day
to day dynamics. um and went to college in Louisiana
and then as soon as I graduated I moved to Washington
DC and I thought I'd be here for a couple years
and now it's been almost 40 so um so that's kind
of my trajectory well you mentioned um firstly
you know you not being the same as others I would
imagine In that state, maybe at that time, you're
at the tail end of there still almost being kind
of shame around the fractured nuclear family.
So as we're going to move forward, we'll talk
about shame in the world of suicide. But talk
to me about that kind of element when you were
an offspring of a divorced family. Yes. Well,
you know, there are a lot of layers to it. One,
I think there's a lot of curiosity, right? you
know um like how do you how are they doing it
um how are they functioning it it broke every
rule um culturally that we had um in our community
um there was some resentment i as a child that
i perceive from other grown -up women um i wish
it weren't the case but I can still remember
the names and the tone of the voice of the women
who were mostly parents of my friends, not my
close friends, but people I was around, who had
a lot of judgment and scorn toward my mother
for having the audacity of leaving her children.
And, um, so, but we felt that I felt that, um,
and, you know, harder to grasp when you're young,
but, but we were aware of it. Both our parents
did, they were very good to each other in the
divorce and that helped so much. They were far
ahead of their time. Um, I think we understand
a lot more about how to handle children and help
them through changes in family. But at the time,
I think they just happened to be fairly wise
and enlightened on this. And they treated each
other well, and they never put us in the middle
of their split, right? There was open lines of
communications always. And I think that helped
us a lot. And one of the things they were always
telling us was to look at the opportunities that
we had by having this, you know, divided life.
And so both my sister and I, I feel we're able
to be a little more aware. And of course, when
we were young, we took it for granted. a lot
of things for granted, but it wasn't completely
lost on us. And I don't feel like either of us
ever got sucked into some resentment, you know,
cycle. I mean, it's not to say that we were,
you know, just rainbows and sunshine all the
time, but it did not overtake us. You know, our
different circumstances did not. overtake us
or define us. In fact, I just had my 40th high
school reunion a couple of weeks ago, and I was
having this conversation. A group of us were
talking, and my school was pretty small, less
than 100 people in the class, and we were very
close. We were in school together a long time,
but we're coming together as adults, and we're
talking about how You know, when you're growing
up, you're really not clued in to what some of
your friends and classmates are going through.
You're just focused on what's happening at school
or what's happening on the sports field or in
the parking lot or, you know, the drive -thru.
And we kind of went around and everybody was
saying, well, she was dealing with her sick mother
and he was dealing with the fact that his father
had died. And, you know, like everybody had these
things. And I said, and I was gone four months
a year because I would go up to Colorado. And
people, again, people I've known a long time,
since I was 10 years old, didn't know, didn't
realize that I spent a quarter of my life, a
third of my life in another state while we were.
together all the time. Now, obviously my close,
close friends knew, right. But, you know, people
I was in class with every day, you know, I rode
the school bus with, and, you know, you, you
were what? So to me, that was an interesting
little window. I think it's mostly shows us how
self -concerned we all are, particularly when
we're young. That's not a selfish thing. It's
just the way it is. You know, you're looking
out for your own, you know, your own life. But
then those that can kind of stay with you and
you wouldn't even realize that someone that you
thought you knew really well at the time may
have had some different circumstances or struggles
or challenges that were driving a lot of their
behavior and decision making. It reminds me of
that quote, you know, be kind. You never know
the battle that others are fighting. And it's
very, very true. I mean, you look at, you know,
road rage, for example, someone made a comment
on the show a while ago and they said the problem
with a lot of modern society is that water boils
at 212 degrees and a lot of people are walking
around at 211. I think it's very true. Yes. Yes.
Absolutely. Well, just one more, Aaron, this
might be a kind of, you know, a different response
to this because you were so, like you said, your
parents had this good relationship. You spent
the summer with your mom. A lot of people that
have that fracture in their upbringing, there's
that subconscious feeling of why wasn't I good
enough for my parent to still be here, to not
drink, whatever the thing is. Did that factor
in subconsciously with you or was it bolstered
because of the quality time you were having with
your mom in the summer? Well, I knew intellectually
I was loved and wanted because we did have this
ongoing relationship. And because my day to day,
I was safe. I was protected. Again, I had great
friends. But yeah, underneath it, you just wonder.
I don't think it ever quite goes away. You know,
why wasn't it? Why wasn't I enough? And I've
had mountains and mountains of therapy ever since
I was young. And, you know, it's a question that
kind of like much of my life, it's a question
that doesn't ever have. resolution it's more
of a feeling and i just accept it as a feeling
and then when my son died um i i did feel like
you know my i wasn't the right kid for my mom
to hang around and i wasn't the right mom for
my kid to hang around Just to throw it all out
there. Yeah. I mean, again, like you said, on
the intellectual point of view, it doesn't make
sense. But from the subconscious point that a
lot of people are trying to access, it's justified
in that kind of distorted thinking. So how did
you, while we're on that topic, before we kind
of progress to the story itself, with that particular
element, how were you able to resolve that in
your own mind? Well, there's no resolution. You
learn to live with it. And when I was younger,
for a lot of, I mean, I say younger, basically
into my 40s, huge chip on my shoulder, huge need
to prove no one was paying attention to me, but
I felt like everybody was paying attention to
me and watching and, you know, making sure I
measured up. And I was very motivated by that.
And I tried to make it a productive anger. I've
had a great career. I have had, I've created
the life that I want. And I feel very empowered
and capable of. Of creating the existence and
the family and the mood, not controlling my moods,
but just like the vibe that I want in my life.
And that is forward looking. That is open to
change. That is curious. Hopefully self -aware.
It's not that I don't have negative thoughts
because I surely do. But I try and hear what
they're telling me and not linger on them and
try and make those insecurities and those doubts,
you know, motivation and fodder for growth. Beautiful.
Well, I want to go back to kind of the high school
age and we'll walk through adulthood then. When
you were in school, firstly, what were you doing
and playing as far as sports and exercise? Well,
so I had, when I was like elementary school and
junior high, I loved horses and I also English
and Western writing. I wrote English in Louisiana
and I wrote Western in Colorado. And I, I, I
did ballet for a while and loved dancing. Should
have stuck with it. You know, that's what happens.
Got distracted. And I loved to ski, which makes
sense in the Colorado part, but is not, wasn't
as common for. a Louisiana girl. And it was a,
that was a really, I didn't reckon that I did
not recognize at the time, but, but now that
I'm an adult, you know, the sensation of skiing,
um, is it's so powerful and, and, um, uh, the
freedom that, cause I'm not necessarily a risk
taker. I'm not a daredevil. But I found so much
freedom in skiing that I could sort of tap into
that in my own way. And then when I got to high
school, because this was South Louisiana in the
80s, I was a cheerleader and I loved it. And
that sort of... um positive encouraging um active
persona i think has followed me through uh you
know it's not that everything has to be rah -rah
but like it kind of it it's my personality to
to try and be encouraging and um and i liked
it because i had a sort of minor leadership role
at the school and you know it great friendships
and so yeah it's funny i just wrote my second
book the end of last year and there's this one
scene where he reflects on skiing and it's up
you know drawing from my own experiences but
there is something really soul cleansing about
standing at the top of a mountain, whether it's
the actual brightness of the sun on the snow
itself, or whether it's the fact that you literally
get to navigate your way down. You don't need
a ski boat. You don't need a tennis partner.
It's just you and, you know, the topography.
So I found that extremely healing, but I'd only
go once, you know, for a week, you know, maybe
if I was lucky once a year, but what's interesting
too, I grew up on a farm and that was a horse
veterinary surgeon. So I grew up around horses.
So talk to me about that when you reflect back
now, how cathartic was the equine side of your
upbringing? So my experience with horses, I think
kind of mirrors my life. I did a little bit of
everything and that's good and bad. on one hand
i was in a show ring with walking horses a lot
of discipline um on another hand i tried hunter
jumper um i also worked at a dude ranch in their
day camp you know putting six -year -olds into
saddles and taking them on trail rides and So,
and then my grandparents in Texas had quarter
horses that I would just throw myself on the
back and wander around the pastures and try not
to step in gopher holes, right? So it really
was a patchwork. And so I craved, I wanted horses
in my life every day. I wanted to. be on a farm
or have access to a farm or have access to training
that, you know, like, I think I wanted that routine
and discipline and just the circumstances of
my life and kind of how all the different machinery
was working. It, it, it, I was not able to build
horses into my life the way I wanted as a, as
a young person. However, I think you can probably
see how I found a way to put horses in my life
wherever I could. And I think one of the most
incredible things is not necessarily what I did
with it or didn't do with it. I mean, I just
like the animals. I just like being around them.
But when my oldest was in, when she was like
10, 11 years old, she wanted to ride and we found
a barn and She became really fixated, you know,
horse girl, right? It's a thing. There's a reason
it's a thing. And she would go, it was in our
neighborhood where we live in the suburbs, but
there happens to be like this old ranch right
in the middle of town. And she would go. Just
to be with the horses, she would go to muck and
she would go to clean up and feed and, and take
care of them just to be around them. And it really
nurtured her and it nurtured me to see her doing
that. And she's, she's 27 now, but she has come
back around to horses, you know, kind of got
distracted, you know, animals. Animals touch
us on different levels than people. And I think
that particularly if you're growing and evolving
or struggling, animals can reach you in ways
that other activities, other passions cannot.
And horses are... are right up there it's a shame
more people don't have access to horses not just
the riding part but just the being around them
it's very sensory you know yeah i had uh have
you ever heard of buck branneman he's uh he's
basically the guy that they wrote the horse whisperer
about um he was he and his brother were Their
dad basically lived vicariously through them.
They became a few old 1950s cereal commercials.
They'd have a couple of kids lassoing something.
That was the kids. Poodle tricks for those children
and very abusive upbringing. And he kind of got
mentored by a local, I think it was sheriff,
law enforcement officer and took him onto a ranch.
And then he just had this amazing relationship
with horses that, you know, he still teaches
to this day. But I remember him saying that they
are a mirror to our own soul, you know, and you
can, you know, for horses or, you know, on edge,
it's probably because you are on edge. And I
remember, you know, that even on the farm, I
didn't ride. My sister was really into horses.
I would just kind of ride whichever horse was
available. If you've ever seen one of those monkeys
riding greyhounds, that's kind of what I look
like on the back of a horse. But I was brave,
but not exactly skilled. But it was the same
thing. I remember as a kid, you have to be calm
with them. And so I can see why they are so healing
now. And a lot of these retreats that take first
responders and military members and other people
on these equine trips, because you literally
are being shown yourself and the horse responds
the way you do. And the more you calm yourself.
the stronger the bomb that comes with the horse.
And when you're riding, it's literally a viewpoint
that you don't get when you're walking around.
And don't we all need different viewpoints? Absolutely.
Right? Different perspectives. 100%. All right.
Well, then going back again to the high school,
while you were progressing through towards graduation,
what were you dreaming of as far as a occupation?
I didn't know. My parents were great in the sense
that they're like, yeah, just it's wide open.
As long as you can support yourself, that's fine.
I had a lot of encouragement because even though
I did go back and forth between Louisiana and
Colorado, you know, I was from a town at a. time
where, um, because the university was literally
in our backyard, um, a lot of people stayed in,
in Baton Rouge. And, and I think because my mother,
I know because my mother had moved away, she's
like, you've, you've got to go away, you know,
at least for a little while you need to experience
something else. And I think she was. Again, a
little ahead of her time compared to her peers
on that. And so that is the message I got. Wasn't
so much what you do. It was, you know, changing
perspective, changing that scenery, seeing what
it's like to live somewhere else. And so I did
go to college in my hometown. to LSU. And, and
then I left, I graduated on a Friday and I moved
to Washington on Sunday and I started a new job
up here on Monday. So I didn't take any time
off, which by the way, I don't recommend, but
I had a job and I was a secretary and it was
really just about You know, being in the workforce
and getting some skills and learning how to navigate
on my own. And I had a friend that I'd known
since I was very young who who joined me and
we lived together. So that was great. And she
was taking the same path. You know, she was working
in an office doing whatever needed to be done.
And I. I did major in English, but I studied
mostly literature, not writing. Obviously, writing
is a part of that degree, no matter what. But
I kind of stumbled into public relations. I didn't
even really know what it was. And worked for
a... public relations agency, you know, a group
of consultants that is, you know, helping clients
on all kinds of issues. And I was a secretary
type, but so, you know, a lot of administration,
a lot of keep track of people. This is literally
in the days where you're answering phones for
other people. Like there was no voicemail, you
know, so a call would come in and I would. answer
their line and take a message for them and put
it on a pink slip of paper and put it on their
desk. A lot of filing. But the field really suited
me and I was lucky to be able to evolve into
the professional side of things and to work with
folks who gave me those opportunities. So I started
learning about communications programs. and client
service, kept working on my writing and planning
events and working with media and things like
that. And I ended up hitting a pretty high point
working at a very large international agency,
heading a practice area. And I think the communications
happens to be You know, I didn't know it when
I was in high school or college or even first
starting out, but it's my field. You know, I
mean, it's something I feel good about. It's
something I feel like I can do well. It's challenging,
but not in an overwhelming way. And I really
like consulting, helping other people find their
story, shape their story, make sure it's doing
what they want it to. It's really interesting.
I don't think I've talked to anyone in public
relations specifically, but there is a landscape
of PR out there from someone who is trusted by
everyone and tells their story all the way through
to the spin doctor on the other side and everything
in between. Without loading the question, what
have you seen as far as the world of PR? What
is your perspective on the value of someone actually
simply being true to themselves in that message?
I don't think that's loaded at all. I think you're
absolutely right. There are people who are in
it to manufacture answers, image, reputation.
That has never been my... strain of communications.
And, you know, without getting too much into
the policy side of things, living and working
in Washington, D .C., a lot of big decisions
are made every day. A lot of big mistakes are
made every day. And there's a lot on the line
in front of Congress and the regulatory agencies
and the White House, whoever's in charge. because
again i've been here 40 years you see everything
and i can tell you that um that honesty and transparency
and accountability always win always you might
get some knocks on the chin particularly if you're
having to um Give your side of the story in a
difficult or challenging situation. But the bigger
crisis is almost always from somebody who tries
to cover up, push aside or ignore. And I don't
care what you're talking about. I don't care
if it's policy. I don't care if it's a product.
I don't care if it's a company you're trying
to sell more shares of. You have to. you have
to find that core truth. And sometimes that can
sound to the outside, like you're spinning, but
if it's the truth, it's not spin, you know? And,
and I think those fundamentals made a huge difference
to me not to jump too far ahead, but Those fundamentals
of effective communications helped me from the
moment I learned my son died. And they shaped
the way that I have grieved in my healing process.
And what I'm talking about is he died by suicide.
The first decision we had to make is, are we
going to be honest about cause of death? suicide
is something people don't talk about. Suicide
is something that is very taboo. It's mysterious.
And I completely understand, particularly in
those early moments and days, why if you've lost
someone to suicide, you shut down so much. You
can't make a decision. So how can you make a
big, important decision? But my communications
training, kicked in and I realized people have
questions whether I want to answer them or not.
And this is my story. This is going to be the
story of the rest of my life. My 21 year old
son who was adored, beloved, easygoing, had tons
of friends, smart, active, He killed himself.
It's up to me to tell that story. And the only
way that I can grow and heal and continue going
on is to be completely honest about that story.
And so from day one, it was part of his obituary.
It was every conversation we had. And I think
that it was because deep in my brain, I knew
that to be anything less than honest was to create
more problems for myself and more stress for
my family. We did meet as a family to talk about
this. It was a decision we made together. That's
really important. But we all knew absolutely
that that's what we were going to do. And I think
it has really helped us. Well, we'll get to,
you know, Charlie and the suicide in a moment.
We're just going back to the transparency, the
honesty. I think this is such an important factor
that obviously extends into, I mean, I think
you want to talk about stigma. Suicide is bad.
Overdose, even worse. Like, God forbid, you know,
your child loses their life to fentanyl, and
that's super hush -hush. And the same in the
fire service. i truly believe that there's a
renaissance happening of kindness compassion
honesty because i think the pendulum has swung
so far the wrong way for so many years and i
think that is now you know one of the reasons
the contributing factors to some of the guilt
and the shame that these people that are struggling
with that we lose because of this dishonesty
that's rewarded at the moment, rather than, like
you said, being transparent for it to be okay
to talk about the things that are bothering you,
to talk about the voices that you're hearing
in your head, to talk about the fact that you
can't put down whatever substance, whatever the
person's struggle is. And so, you know, I really
hope that to honor all the Charlies in the world
that this swing back the other way. will allow
people to be more vulnerable and open up. And
so we don't lose them between the cracks. Absolutely.
And I have great sympathy. I think every human
can understand how hard it is to admit or be
forthcoming or be fully honest about their pain.
No matter. who you are or what your pain is about
or where it comes from, the very nature of that
pain, particularly if there's mental illness
involved, your brain is telling you, keep it
to yourself. This is your problem. No one else
needs to know. There's nothing that can be done.
it turns on you and so so i understand i know
how hard it is to just say man you wouldn't believe
the things that are going on in my head but i
have yet to encounter someone who has not been
open or generous or even, you know, appreciative
of that type of vulnerability. And also, and
maybe this is an age thing, I'm almost 60. I'm
like, well, if they don't react in a way that's
gentle and welcoming, then I really don't want
to have anything to do with them. And I don't
care what they say. If they say something hurtful
or critical, I'm like, That reflects on them,
not me. I couldn't have said that in my 30s.
I certainly couldn't have said that when I was
a teenager or in my 20s. But, you know, I really
feel that as a, you know, more mature adult that
why wouldn't I tell people, you know, this is
a hard day and this is why, you know. or my favorite
expression is i i'm not doing people today just
no people no people right well i've said i mean
i think the other unspoken part of this is the
people and i've seen this in the fire service
the people that are like oh back in my day we
just you know got on with it rubbed some dirt
in there now i see it with the stands like oh
you're hurting too it's still buried down there
which is why you're having this response yeah
100 I think the other thing as well, going back
to, you know, even some of the less ethical practices
in the business side, and I would say the same
if you're a fire chief in a department and you
keep losing people to suicide and cancer and
heart disease and you're somewhat unfazed by
it. I think it mirrors if you are the head of
William Morris and millions of people die from
your product or, you know, Purdue Pharma when
OxyContin has created an opioid crisis that's
taken 100 ,000 people every year and you still
sleep in your bed. I think that's the unspoken
mental health crisis. We always look at the people
on the ground, whether it's our school kids and
college kids or our first responders or our soldiers,
but we forget to look at the top. Arguably, I
would say several presidents recently would probably
benefit from some mental health counseling. And
again, some of the people at the helm of these
organizations that profit from the deaths of
Americans. It's a mental health crisis. You should
not sleep well knowing people are dying from
the thing that's paying your bills. You shouldn't.
100 % agree. Yes. And when you're sitting where
I'm sitting or where you're sitting and you have
this perspective, the world does look a little
different. You can see these leaders or these
decision makers or these mouthpieces that get
on the news and the way they rationalize or evade
the reality that we know. You do wonder. what
is going on in your brain that, that this is
okay. And, you know, I, I, I wouldn't call myself
a Pollyanna person. I at all, meaning everything
has to be great and happy all the time, but I
try to be realistic and, and if possible give
grace only because It's better for me. It's actually
selfish for me to try and be forgiving and I
can't forgive everything. But when I see these
leaders, you know, you mentioned these captains
of industry and these politicians and you wonder
how can you sleep at night? I think of a human
who. must be in their own form of survival mode.
And we all have our own form of survival mode
for so long that, you know, I'm a big, I'm very
much about what is the story you tell yourself
in order to get through and how do you cope and
how do you get, how do you carry on the story
that they tell themselves? must be so distorted
and so broken that they have lost touch with,
you know, the human side of things. And it's
tragic for those of us on the ground who are
living and breathing, you know, the consequences
of, of their delusion or their brokenness or
their illness um but it's also i think you know
what kind of world that we live in that people
are feel that the best way for them to cope and
get through is to lighten themselves and light
everyone around them to the point where they
can't recognize the truth yeah yeah i think then
i think It will be great to see this conversation
expanding because, I mean, I've said this. If,
for example, I pick on my profession, you are
a fire chief in charge of a department and you've
lost a lot of people. Clearly, there's an issue.
You've got two ways to go. You go the healing
route and you do your own work and you start
to refine that empathy and compassion and that
leadership quality and advocate for your people.
And you stay at the helm of that ship and everyone
applauds the fact that you had the courage to
do your own work. Or you step aside because you're
not worthy because the leadership is more than
happy to point at a police officer or a firefighter
and say you're not fit for duty because you're
struggling mentally and they take away their
gun or take them off the line. But no one ever
points up the chain. And there's many people
that aren't fit for duty in leadership positions
and they need to be taken aside. And again, hopefully
they will heal and return to the position much
better than they were before. But if you refuse
to do the work, then you're not actually the
right person for that job. I hate to say it,
but you're not. I'm always fascinated by, and
I would love to hear, I know people have studied
this, the psychology behind holding on. So someone
who may be not fit to be a leader. or maybe in
over their head, maybe just wrong place, wrong
time, or maybe the circumstances, they're perfectly
fine, but the circumstances are way bigger than
they're able to handle. And yet people hold on,
they pass the buck, they push it down, you know,
they deny everything to protect their job, protect
their position, protect their standing, even
their reputation to the point where they. either
harm others or they end up harming themselves.
I mean, you see it all the time. The business
leader who will not step down from their company
would rather run it to the ground than have somebody
else in charge or the politician that won't step
over, step aside so others can have their seat.
Talk to me in 10 years. Talk to me if people
are wanting something I have and I don't want
to hold, I don't want to let go. I'm sure I would
have all kinds of, you know, examples, much more
personal and less important to the outside world.
But this need to just hang on, you know, hang
on to what it is that you have, that whatever
you fought for or you think you deserve. And
it's like, at what cost? At what cost? To yourself.
Not just to others, but to yourself. I think
it's that void. I really do. I mean, I wrote
in my first book about an analogy that I kind
of came up with inspired by something else. I
won't bore you with too many details. But basically,
we always talk about the cup being full and running
over when it comes to mental health. But I thought,
well, that doesn't really apply if you think
about addiction. So I was like, what if it's
the opposite? What if your bucket always needs
to be full and holes get punched in from childhood
trauma and the side effects of alcohol and all
these different areas and now you're leaking?
The bucket still needs to be full. So it's like,
I don't care what it is, just fill me with something.
So it could be gambling or porn or money, position,
power, whatever the thing is. And only when you
start doing the work do you plug the holes. And
now all of a sudden you start, you know, you're
not bleeding as much. So now more of the good
part of you stays there and it takes less and
less of the bad stuff. And eventually it's all
good again. And I think that's the same with
these positions. It's that identity that they've
given themselves. If I just have more money,
if I'm the CEO, if I'm the president, whatever
it is, then I'll finally be okay. Versus let
me find out why the hell I'm chasing this thing.
Because it's never fulfilling. I cannot get enough.
And you hear this with the millionaires and billionaires.
It's never enough. So I think it's the same in
these areas too. If they just had the courage
to look in the mirror and say, I need to do some
soul searching. I need to figure out what, as
I always say, the P is beneath the mattress,
the princess and the P analogy. What is that
thing? And when they find that, that's when you
hear of these CEOs that then sell everything.
buy a bike and end up cycling around the world
because there's so much more at peace now they
realize they don't need any of that stuff anymore
yep completely so all right well then let's get
on the uh yeah that the kind of timeline of charlie
himself so talk to me about you know who charlie
is let's talk about him as a little boy and then
we'll kind of walk through you know some of the
things that you started noticing along the way
Sure. So Charlie's my youngest child. I have
three. He was born in 2001. And about six months
before 9 -11. And I can't. say with any certainty,
proof that I know for a fact that children born
around 9 -11 have, there's consequences. But
I can tell you that it changed the way I parented.
And I had three children. All my children had
the same. parenting experience and mine were
back to back bam bam bam um and i was when he
was six months old i was scheduled to fly to
los angeles for a work meeting and was going
to be on flight 77 that crashed into the pentagon
and i was quite apprehensive about this trip
i didn't want to leave my babies and i didn't
want to go um the weekend before i left i wrote
them goodbye letters i was really nervous made
the cab on the way to the airport pull over on
the side of the road and threw up But I had changed
my flight last week of August from flight 77
to a different flight. And so I flew out the
day on September 10th. That flight ended up being
delayed and I was grounded in Cincinnati and
I had to do an overnight. And then I got on a
plane the morning of September 11th and I was
in the air when the terrorist attacks happened.
And my flight, the pilot came on and said, we
are grounding. There have been attacks on U .S.
aviation. And I checked into a hotel room. Everything.
we all remember that day we all remember how
everything came to a standstill riveted by the
tv turn on the tv they you know the buildings
are falling there's all this there's a lot of
uncertainty it's still the morning and i um they
recognized the first person that was identified
as a victim was a woman named barbara olson who
was a commentator for CNN and she was the wife
of the U .S. Solicitor General. And she had called
her husband from the plane and she was going
to attend the same meeting I was attending. So
I saw her face. At that point, I just knew these
terrible things were happening and I was on an
airplane and I wanted to get off the airplane.
But then I saw her face and I realized that that
was the flight I was going to be on. And I had
all my old records. And then I realized I knew
other people on that plane. And so, you know,
we all have our, you know, our own forms of trauma.
It comes in a lot of ways. This felt in the,
at the time indirect, you know, I wasn't hurt.
I, I made for whatever reason, divine intervention
changed my flight. But that close call absolutely
did a number on me. While the whole country is
also coming to terms with our own vulnerability.
And it absolutely had to have affected the way
that I parented all my children. I was hypervigilant.
I developed a lot of separation anxiety, meaning
I did not want to drive to another part of town
to be away from them. became fearful of bridges
i absolutely could not fly which had been a big
part of my life before and um personal and business
and and it it took me several years before i
think i even realized that i was had so much
anxiety and so much stress That, like, I wanted
to just take care of it for myself. I'm like,
everything's fine. Everything's fine. As long
as the kids are happy. But I began to realize
that my anxiety, and I actually had a therapist
diagnose me with PTSD, that that was affecting
my children. And particularly as they get older.
They want more freedom. And by freedom, I mean
going to someone's house for a play date, not
traipsing across the country on a road trip.
I mean, six years old and having a sleepover.
Like I knew in my mind, there's nothing wrong
with that. But boy, I did not want that. I was
too afraid because I was just afraid. And so
I got help. Really big fan of cognitive behavioral
therapy. Highly recommend it. In the meantime,
I'm working a big job. My husband's working a
big job and our kids are doing what kids do,
which is they were growing and cutting up and
having fun and being a little pain in the ass.
And, you know, all the things that parenting
three children that were born in three years
can do to a household. And Charlie was always
our easygoing one. He had these two older sisters
who just wore it all on their sleeve. You always
knew what was going on. And Charlie was Mr. Laidback.
He was quiet, but not shy. He, you know, wicked
sense of humor, very impish. You know, he'd like
to like kind of catch you off guard and, you
know. sort of sneak up with you on with his humor.
Um, but very clever. He's, he was a listener,
you know, he was always paying attention to what
was going on in the room, even if he wasn't injecting
himself into it. And in fact, I think that became
a core personality trait, which is he was kind
of sitting and watching and taking it in. And,
um, He let others have attention. He let others
tell the funny stories or, you know, take the
spotlight. And he seemed very comfortable with
that. And when he spoke, he made it count, you
know. And I think, you know, there's a lot of...
retroactive diagnosis when you have a son who
dies by suicide. And I think looking back that
he didn't really, he let those traits take over
a bit. He didn't learn to advocate for himself.
He did not stand up for himself. He was sensitive
about saying what he wanted and he needed. And
I think that made it harder for him when he began
to struggle with his mental health. Was he an
empath when you say he was a listener? I mean,
I think of an empath a lot when people say that.
Yes, absolutely. He was the one who people went
to. They just knew he was the steady mind, the
steady voice. It's not that he didn't have opinions
because he had plenty. um but people turned to
him he also sought people out he i can't tell
you how many we we heard a lot of this before
he died but after he died we really heard a lot
people would share charlie was the first one
to approached me when he knew when you know after
i got cut from the team charlie was the one who
um introduced me to people so that i could have
friends in on this class um charlie you know
showed me around so that i wasn't alone and you
know i mean his He at one point even had someone
sleeping in his dorm room because that person
had trouble getting up and going to class on
time. And Charlie said, how about this? Sleep
on my sofa and I will make sure you get up and
go to class and you don't get demerits. And that
was the kind of guy he was. He stepped between
a bully and his target and took a. a a punch
to the nose busted busted nose blood all over
the place but there was a a bully going after
a freshman and charlie didn't want that to happen
like that's that's who he was and charlie went
to boarding school have i got that right he did
go to boarding school and you know there are
a lot of great things about boarding school certainly
independence, self -reliance. I think they have
a great community that sometimes I feel like
was closer to what I experienced in high school,
you know, before phones and social media and
all the, you know, different competing. um technologies
and um you know boarding school you you live
there all the time so you're living with your
classmates and um i think that really helped
uh that was a positive thing for him and what
about sports what was he playing he was a three
-season athlete he um primarily um played football
basketball and lacrosse but he also played baseball
and he loved golf um and so and and huge sports
fan you know like and sports are always part
of our house household um we go to pro football
games we took our kids to a lot of um college
football games charlie's uncle was a D1 basketball
coach, not too far from us. So he was going to
ACC basketball games all the time. So fandom
was, is a part of our family language. And then,
and when he was, one of his sisters was also
an athlete. And, you know, they were always,
you know, you know, parents will know the weekend
shuffle with, you know, driving to games and
bringing snacks. you know, the rotating schedules
of practices and things like that. That was very
much our life. I know a lot of the people, especially
in the military and combat sports, you know,
we've got this correlation between head trauma
and some of the mental health challenges. Did
he take any big hits or have any kind of physiological
issues prior to losing him? We are aware of,
and he did play football and lacrosse. um so
he did get banged up i mean it just comes with
the territory he was tall and strong but thin
right so um in a um you know one -on -one situation
he i do think that he was maybe vulnerable particularly
when he got in high school um some of the kids
he played football and lacrosse with went on
to be D one athletes at, you know, places like
Notre Dame and Duke. And so he was with some
serious competitors, but he was never treated
for a concussion. And, and I think, and, and
I feel like I'm betraying him a little bit. saying
this but i it's not meant to be a criticism but
i hope people will understand he he loved sports
he loved playing sports he really wanted to be
a you know a a big athlete but he didn't have
that killer instinct and he i you watched as
he got older um particularly you can tell the
kids who have that fearlessness and they're willing
to just put their body through anything I see
it as a fan actually mostly with basketball because
you can see so much of basketball you don't have
the gear and the helmets and things on and when
someone is driving the lane and you're going
up against you know a 6 -3 brick wall And you're
running your whole body into that just so you
can make a basket. And it's everything. It's
your head, your neck, your shoulders, your hands,
your arms, all on the line. And Charlie never
had that. He never had that. He was a jump shot
guy, right? He was never, you know, he knew what
he needed to do. He was, you know. He was devoted.
He worked hard, but he could never find that
little space where he just put all self -protection
aside and put his body into his play. And as
a mom, I was like, this is fine with me, right?
Because I do think it kept him safer. His sister,
interestingly. And two years older was a lacrosse
player and she had so many concussions. We couldn't
even keep track. At one point, she was seeing
the concussion specialist who treats the Washington
Capitals. So like so I feel like we were fairly
versed in head injury and body trauma for, you
know, middle school and high school athletes
and things. And. Charlie, that's a really long
answer, but that is not anything I worry about
how he could have gotten to the point where his
mental illness overtook him. I'm sure it didn't
help, but not a lot. Yeah. What about career
aspirations? What was he thinking of becoming?
He loved history. He loved... political science
he loved debate so he was planning on being a
lawyer really suited his personality analytical
mind um my husband his father was a big debater
was a lawyer who doesn't practice anymore but
you know you know some people's minds are just
um built that way and um Charlie definitely was
built to take the emotion out of an argument
or a situation and look at the facts, look at
the history, look at the rules of the laws. He
thrived on that. And he was doing very, very
well. He'd worked for judges and for law firms.
And I think that's where he was headed. So when
you reflect back, what was some of the red flags?
And like you said, hindsight is 20 -20. You're
doing a lot more forensic analysis after you
had this horrendous event happen. But were there
any elements that made you realize that there
was a mental struggle going along along the way?
Honestly, and I know this is not what people
want to hear, no. We're still surprised. It's
been almost three years. I can look back and
I can see he was struggling, but to me, it seemed
very garden variety growing up, ups and downs
of life. And, you know, his timeline is that
he went to college. He, spring break of his freshman
year, he ended up not going back to college because
of the pandemic. It was that time when everybody,
everything shut down. He happened to already
be home. During the pandemic, his high school
friends were all here. So they formed a bubble.
And I can honestly say our family. was very blessed
to have a positive pandemic experience we were
together we had space we have a nice yard we
had the dog each of my kids have their friends
um a lot of hanging out in the backyard but even
you know one of charlie's friends had a place
on a lake in north carolina so they went down
there for two weeks you know another had a place
in massachusetts they went up there for a couple
of weeks so he was connected he was engaged he
chose to stay um follow 2020 and do remote classes
from home those friends were still around um
you know going out on boats going you know i
mean just it was a very outdoor time outdoorsy
time He went back to college, slipped right back
into things. He was in a fraternity. He had great
friends. And we first learned that he was struggling
in spring of 2022. So he was end of his junior
year. The reason we learned is because a friend
of his called and said, Charlie knows I'm talking
to you, but I felt like I needed to tell you
that he was threatening to hurt himself. And
we were floored. We had no idea. No idea. When
I got that call, I had literally spoken to him
20 minutes earlier and thought he was fine. You
know, and so I got on a plane. I flew to Texas.
I was there as the sun came up. I got a hotel
room. He and he came and he joined me and we
got in there and we just slept. He slept in the
bed. I slept on the sofa. And when he woke up
middle of the afternoon, he was absolutely distraught.
He was crying, sobbing. I hadn't seen him upset
like that since he was a little boy. And he said
he was really afraid, but he could not articulate
what he was afraid about. So I stayed for a week.
And while I was there, he received a phone call
from the health center at his university. And
while he was on that call, I learned. In that
conversation, hearing his side of it, that he
called the crisis line for his university. So
he did what he was supposed to do. He was having
these awful thoughts and he called for help.
And they had determined that he was not in immediate
danger. And so this was the follow -up call.
I also learned that he had put himself in therapy
a year before. And I didn't know. I didn't know.
He didn't tell us. So looking back, he had been
struggling for about a year and he's doing these
things to try and take care of himself. He's
going to therapy. He's calling the crisis line.
And of course, I know the external things that
I can see. He's hanging out with his friends.
He's got a girlfriend. He's traveling. He's doing
well in school. He's got a job. He's, you know,
like that all looks good. And so we were shocked
that he was in that much pain. And, you know,
had a lot of hard conversations with him, hard
for me to say, but important. I asked him point
blank, are you thinking of harming yourself?
Are you thinking of suicide? And he said, no.
And I believed him. And he was doing all these
things. And then, you know, I flew back home
and, you know, we're all trying to get back on.
He's finishing school. He's starting a job. We
saw him between then and when he died. It was
11 weeks. 11 weeks between the time that he had
this first sort of cry for help and when he killed
himself. And we saw him five times. He was home.
We were with him. We met for his sister's graduation.
We are in constant contact. I'm asking him, how's
your therapy going? How's your mood? How's your
outlook? His sisters are calling. You know, everybody
is in it, on it. And so when the police knocked
on my door and said that he had hung himself,
it was as if someone had said, Martians have
landed in your front yard. Like, I could not
have, I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe
it. He was doing everything. One of the stark
realizations that I had after all these conversations,
because there's so many people, hundreds of people
on here were at that point. A few of them went
through with their suicide attempt and survived.
Actually, I don't know if you've crossed paths
with Emma Benoit. She's out of Louisiana as well.
So her story, for example, and actually Emma's
one wasn't what I was about to say so much because
she was so young for her. It was really the stress
of not knowing what to do when she graduated.
That was enough to culminate to this, you know,
immense and she had bullying as well. But what
you don't hear, and I'll kind of take a step
back. When you and I were younger, we were told
that suicide was selfish and cowardly and how
could you and think of your family. And then
you actually start a podcast and people tell
you what was actually going on when they were
there. And you understand that there is a perfect
storm of contributing factors, you know, unaddressed
childhood trauma, you know, the stress of, you
know, for example, that an educational path,
you know, the side effects of psych meds, you
know, alcohol, organizational betrayal, you know,
relationship issues, financial issues. And now
you've got this cyclone that's just whirring.
Almost every single time I have heard them say
that their reality was distorted and that they
said I was a reason for my family's pain. And
if I just remove myself, everyone would be happier,
which makes no sense to a healthy brain, but
is literally their reality at that point. Were
there any kind of elements that he talked about
that implied that there was a kind of guilt,
shame? that he was kind of feeling towards the
end. So we have not discovered that, but what
I realized pretty quickly is healthy Charlie,
risk averse, care about everyone, put everyone
else before him, didn't like attention. that
Charlie was not capable of doing what he did.
If he knew how much pain his death would cause
to people, the very people he cares most about,
he could have never, ever gone through with it.
So just because He did not articulate or write
or express, you're better off without me. I know
that's what he was thinking because that's how
sick he was. And the power of the brain to distort
your thinking that way. Okay, so Charlie, the
night before he died. He went out with a bunch
of friends. He's 21. It's summer, college town.
They go to bars. They're hanging out. He drank,
but nobody really seemed to think he was overly
drunk. You know, it's just kind of a regular
night out. And everybody went back to his place.
He lived in a group house. Everybody's hanging
around, talking, playing pool, playing cards,
you know, that late night thing. It's about three
o 'clock in the morning and he's talking to a
friend of his. Someone he's known since high
school who happens to go to the same college
and lives across the street from him. And they
were stressed out and they were all probably
a little drunk and, you know, you're kind of
rambling and, and they were worried about some
social drama, just regular college stuff. And
they were pretty anxious about it. And Charlie
said, Whatever you're feeling now, it's not going
to last. And if you ever need me, I'm right across
the street. I'm here for you. And within hours,
he was dead. So within hours, he went from having
the clarity. And the grounding to understand
that feelings are temporary, that feelings can
lie to you, that your thoughts and emotions can
distort reality. I mean, this is what he was
talking with this person about. And then he woke
up and said, no, I'm out of here. I don't, I'm
never going to be happy. That is power. That
is terrifying. And, and I know a lot of his friends
and my friends, I mean, people want to know what
happened, you know, was there a thing? Was there
a trigger? Was there a moment? Was there? something
looming that he was worried about. And maybe
there was, we have not uncovered anything that
would indicate that. Everything else points to
his brain was so infected with depression's lies
that he could not, he had no grip on reality.
Not all the time, because everybody thought he
was doing fine. We're having these normal conversations.
He's showing up to work. He's going to class.
He's making plans. He's doing all those things.
He's on the other end of the phone. He's on the
other end of the text. But the power of mental
illness, of depression, so overcame him. that
he said it's better if i die like what does it
take for your brain to override its most natural
instinct of self -preservation yeah exactly and
then another factor that i didn't talk about
that's huge in my profession is sleep deprivation
but we forget that that occurs a lot in our students
too and so you've got that you know and i always
point this out if you don't understand the impact
of sleep deprivation remember that it's used
for Special forces selection to weave out recruits,
weed out recruits. It's used for interrogation
and it's used for torture. That's how much it
breaks down the brain. And then you add in alcohol.
I just had a law enforcement officer a few weeks
ago and she started doing forensics on, you know,
autopsies on suicides, officer suicides, not
the physical side, but, you know, what were all
the contributing factors leading up to this?
And she said every single one had consumed alcohol
within 12 hours. And I've said this. you have
this psychosis and it's call it what it is it's
a um you know the point where the brain isn't
acting like it normally would but there's still
that little voice in the back of it it's like
the reality trying to claw its way back but then
you add in alcohol and i've you know tongue -in
-cheek example if it's true how many people have
been out drinking and then ended up hooking up
with someone of whatever gender they're into.
And then the next morning going, I probably wouldn't
have done that had I been sober. This is the
problem. If it's just that one straw left on
that camel's back and you have even just a few
drinks and then let's say you sleep poorly as
well, was that enough? And I think just to underline,
like I said, that whole selfish, cowardly, all
that thing, you then now factor this person who
was an empath, who was the kind one. or in my
profession that would lay their life down for
a stranger, and you convince them that you are
the problem, I would argue in that distorted
moment, the people that we lose more often than
not was actually a terrifying, courageous, selfless
act in that moment. Because they believe that
they were going to make the world better by removing
themselves. So it's important that we put that
compassion and empathy back and rather than the
guilt and shame that more often than not has
led people to this point in the first place.
i yeah i mean there is a it's ridiculous but
there is a courage you know in in in these acts
and then that's not to celebrate them but um
in the distorted thinking of the person who is
is having suicidal thoughts i mean you know i
told you the about Charlie's characteristics
as an athlete for a reason. He did not, he was
not a big risk taker. He was, I think, emotionally
courageous, intellectually courageous, but he
wasn't physically courageous. And that's okay.
You know, you need all types. I kind of love
that about him, that he was careful. So how can
someone who's careful kill themselves? I will
also add to your alcohol sleep deprivation thing,
food. Charlie had not been eating. And, you know,
a lot of people, when we're stressed or distressed
or struggling, You know, you take it in the gut.
You either take on lots and lots of extra food
or you can't take on any food at all. I can't
eat. His sisters can't eat. His father can't
eat. And he couldn't eat whenever we're stressed.
Right. This is run of the mill day in, day out,
ready for a test or presentation or something
kind of stress. But I noticed when. We got his,
his cry for help. And I spent that week with
him. You know, it's a thing. And if you've, if
you've experienced, you know what I'm talking
about? It's like your throat constricts, like
it literally doesn't allow food in. And like,
I, I, I could feel that. My body was hungry,
but my body wasn't allowing me to get the food
in my body. And so you get depleted, really depleted.
That does not help your mood and your thinking
and your clarity. And it compounds. And so, I
mean. in our family, smoothies are a big thing.
Just try and get a smoothie that has some fruits
or vegetables or even protein in them because
you can take a few sips on that straw, right?
Like just get something in your body, but meals,
forget it, forget it. You know, two French fries,
that's it. And it's, and it's a, and it's terrible
because it does make your, it stresses your brain.
And so I think Charlie woke up hungover, tired,
hungry, and whatever insecurities, doubts, you
know, maybe he was cringing about a conversation
he'd had, you know, we all do that, right? You
wake up and go, oh my gosh, I cannot believe
I said that to that person, you know, whatever.
None of these are reasons to kill yourself, by
the way. But it all compounded. Very human, normal
things compounded because his brain was under
such duress from depression. I think it's why
it's so important to have these conversations
and we'll get to the honesty that you touched
on earlier as far as telling everyone what had
happened is unless we really break down, like
I said, this perfect storm, because it's never
one thing. Of course, it's not one thing. Otherwise,
you know, we'd have hardly any of the population
left because they'd have a bad day and that would
be it. They'd end it. So, but the more things
that you can address that are in your control,
you can't, you know, you can't really control
if the person you're madly in love with, you
find with someone else one day. I mean, it happened
to me. That's out of my control. But I can control
if I sleep. I can control if I eat or have smoothies.
I can control, you know, the... understand the
impact of alcohol and if it's going to affect
my sleep. I can control if talk therapy and psych
meds are right for me or maybe therapy dogs or
a psilocybin retreat. I mean, the more we pull
it out the shadows, the more we can pick apart
the areas that we can control. And so even on
some of your worst times, you're still not getting
right to the threshold of taking your own life
or drowning in addiction. But if we keep that
stigma and we keep shoving everything in the
corner, we're never going to address it. So I
think this is why, you know, we'll talk about
this now, but in my profession, I have admiration
for those families that say we lost our loved
one to suicide because the number of times that
I see died suddenly or, you know, whatever the
other rhetoric is. And we all know what it is,
but they don't say what it is. And then what
happens is, you know, it doesn't factor on the
national statistics then. Oh, we only lost, you
know, 70 firefighters to suicide. No, you didn't.
Not even close. And not to mention the products
of alcoholism and then, you know, the overdoses,
it's 10 times that. And then the fact that we've
got retirees that aren't counted now times that
by 100. You know, I mean, it's an absolute, you
know, tip, minute tip at the iceberg because
of this shame and guilt. So big kind of preamble
to the question. So let's talk about that day,
July 10th, 2022. Walk me through that. And then
let's talk about what you as a family decided
to do, you know, from that day moving forward.
Sunday, July 10th, 2022. Setting the stage, Charlie
lived in Fort Worth. And his sister, Abby, lived
in Baton Rouge. And his oldest sister, Grace,
lived in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. And my
husband and I are in empty nesting mode. And
he played golf and I have a... garden that I
love, that feeds me and supports me emotionally.
And so I was in the garden all day. And normally
we talk to our kids on and off. There's no set
schedule, but during the week, text and call.
But we always make it a point to talk on Sundays.
And called Charlie. He didn't pick up, but didn't
think anything of it. He texted me the night
before, you know, at whatever, 1030, 1130. And,
you know, I mean, he's a 21 year old living in
a group house in a college town. He doesn't need
to be jumping to it every time his mother calls.
And by the evening, we still hadn't heard from
him. And I can't say I was worried like. Not
about this. But it was unusual. It was unusual
that at some point during the day, he would not
have said, hey, I'll call you later or check
in. And so we contacted one of his roommates
and said, hey, can you just check on Charlie?
We hadn't heard from him. Make sure everything's
okay. And, um, we, and I just kind of forgot
about it, you know, like, I mean, that's how
I didn't have an intuition. Some people do. And
maybe it's good that I didn't because, you know,
it was my last normal day of my life. Right.
And, um, my husband and I had dinner. We hung
down, watched TV. He went up. I stayed in the
living room, which was my norm. working on some
things. And, um, it was 1145 and the police,
I saw the police cruiser pull up to my house
and through the front window. And I, I knew it
wasn't good. And, and I stood at the window and
I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
no. And I kept hoping they would walk somewhere
else. But then they walked to my door. And I
knew. But I didn't know it was suicide. So my
husband comes down. And they give us the news.
you know the these moments these moments that
people have when they learn of a loved one dying
i mean it's it's shocking and and and i said
how like i in my mind i had i thought maybe he
had been in a car wreck or maybe he had drowned
or and they said He hung himself from a ceiling
fan in his room. And there's something. It's
a wound. It's like you get hurt, too, when you
learn the way. Your child hurts themselves. I
mean, I stumbled backward. I mean, it was like,
it's not just dead. It's suicide. I mean, my
heart's racing just talking about it. But that's
what happened. You know, it's absurd. They write
down an 800 number for the Tarrant County Coroner.
And they pull it off their notepad and they say,
call them. They have answers for you. It's an
800 number. And of course, I'm thinking. what's
there to say? He's dead. I mean, it's weird.
I mean, of course I had questions, but like,
I was like, well, he's dead. I don't know what
to talk to him about. Dean of students from TCU
called, you know, by then it's after midnight.
So your phone starts ringing. That's unusual.
And then they put us in touch with a detective
who had been at his, at the scene. I mean, it's
crazy. It's crazy. You start talking about things
like how to get the body back, right? You know,
like it's crazy. And we called the sisters, woke
them up in the middle of the night. deliver that
news texted a few friends and then then it just
snowballs and then you're in you're in crisis
mode you're in crisis mode while you're grieving
while you're trying to make sense of you know
the worst thing that can happen which is losing
someone you love and i As soon as the daughters,
my daughters came here, we were all together.
We realized as a family that we wanted to be
honest about cause of death because we knew that
people would want to know and they'd be talking
about it anyway. And in a way, we did it to go
easier on ourselves. you know because we didn't
want to be hiding it's hard enough why add another
layer of secrecy it's shameful why add more shame
by having to keep up with who knows and who doesn't
know and and so one of the interesting The consequences,
positive consequences, is I think that that honesty
has made it easier for our community to support
us because they don't have to tiptoe around.
They know how he died. And they don't have to
pretend that they don't know. They can say his
name. They can ask questions about him. They
can talk about him. They let us talk about him.
And I think that has helped us, you know, as
we go through this path. And it's been almost
three years and it is still a long path. But
we are starting from a place of honesty and not
one of secrecy. And I think that has made all
the difference in the world. Did that honesty
help even with the grief process itself? Yes.
Yes. I mean. If you can't be honest about the
biggest thing that has happened in your life,
how can you heal? You can't. There's always going
to be, whether it's just this little burr or
whether it's this gaping dagger in your side,
you cannot heal. And I made it my mission. to
say, okay, I need to figure out how I can rebuild
my life, rebuild my sense of self, and accommodate
this grief and this pain and this hole. Not make
it go away, not push it aside, not put flowers
all over it and pretend like it's not that big
of a deal. How can I live with it? And honesty.
is the way. And that includes looking at yourself
and saying, you know, what could I have done
differently? Or, you know, what do I know I did
well and it just didn't work? You know? Honesty
is essential. And it turns out, all the other
life -changing things that happen when you lose
someone, the honesty helps. mend your soul in
other ways you know do i really i i went through
a period where i had a tremendous amount of anxiety
and social anxiety and i was very much at risk
of becoming homebound and i mean i was effectively
homebound for for a while but i had to start
asking myself not do i want to do something but
can i that's another level of honesty Not do
I want to go to the grocery store because I don't
want to go to the grocery store. I don't want
to ever leave my house. I don't want to see anybody.
I certainly don't want to take any risks. I don't
have conversations with anybody. But can I? Very
different question. And the answer is most of
the time I can. I can do that. So if you can
do it. When I think of the guilt and shame, I
really think there's probably just an underlying
element of fear that's kind of feeding those
emotions. When you reflect back now, what were
the negative stories that you were telling yourself
about what people would think, air quotes? I
mean, you ended up being honest from the forefront.
what was the contrast between the perceived reactions
of people and the actual reactions of people
through your honesty i was worried that people
would think that we had hidden something about
charlie or about our lives that something malignant
or disruptive or harmful was happening in our
family. I was worried that people would question
my everyday. Honesty, meaning how I operate in
the world of, you know, being a working mom and
an involved friend and involved parent that people
would think that I was fake or covering up. And
what I had to realize is that it doesn't matter.
If people think those things, they think those
things. And I can't control that. And I know
the truth. And my friends know the truth. And
I think most people sense the truth. I think
the overwhelming support that we have had from
our community. since losing Charlie is partially
because there's a lot of shock. There's a lot
of, oh my gosh, that could have been us. And
so it was a wake up call, but also because I
hope those around us understand our sincerity.
And, you know, I haven't. Any shame I feel is
mine. It's not put on me. Yeah, it's not put
on me. And there's no no need to feel any shame
about this. This is the point that we talked
about with that perfect storm. I mean, this is
no one knows. Kind of like that smoothie. You
know, all the different ingredients that go into
it. You know, that one blueberry was the cause.
No, it wasn't. It was all the things together.
When when I think about people that have actually
survived. So Emma Benoit, again, great example.
I mean, she's become a beacon of light now for
other people. But even when people have lost
someone to suicide, I feel like there's a ripping
back of the curtain and people now come out from
their shadows and say, I've been hurting. And
whether it's like Charlie's tragedy where you've
lost someone or whether it's someone actually
able to tell their story, like I almost went
down that road. It's amazing how many people
behind closed doors are going through the same
thing. So what about that element? What did you
see kind of as the months and years passed as
far as the enormity of other people's struggles
too? Well, that's part of why I'm sitting here.
This is part of why I wrote a book. Right when
Charlie died, we did in the modern world, which
is we started posting pictures and memories.
And I, with no forethought or planning, started
posting some of my thoughts and feelings and
just sharing little bits of. what was on my mind
and what we were experiencing. And we had tremendous
response, very supportive. And, you know, I don't
think I'm overly cynical, but there's also a
part of me that was like, of course, you know,
we just lost somebody. And so, of course, people
were saying, oh, thinking of you, praying of
you. We miss Charlie. He was a great guy. I mean,
who's going to say anything other than something
supportive in that situation? And the weeks go
by and the months go by. And of course, we have
these beautiful letters and people reaching out
to us. And I start to notice I'm getting messages
and letters from people who are sharing their
stories. And sometimes it's, you know, I've known
you for 40 years. I've been depressed. I lost
my marriage. I split up with my husband as a
result of it. These are the things I have to
do to cope and get by. Messages from people who've
said they've been worried about their child.
One person said that she has a son she was worried
about. And she was having trouble communicating
with her husband about, you know, that she thought
it was serious. And he was a college student.
And so she read my posts about Charlie to her
husband. And that is what opened up the conversation
that she'd been trying to have for some time.
to say, listen, I think we need to take this
seriously. And up until that point, the husband
was, oh, he's fine. Oh, he just needs to keep
going to class. Oh, he just needs, you know,
whatever. Because you don't know until you know.
I had a young woman reach out to me and say,
I, college student, I have been in therapy for
a while. And I've been trying to convince my
mother that I need to be on medication or change
medication. I'm not, I can't remember which.
And she has just said, no, no, no, everything's
fine. Everything's fine. You're doing, you're
doing fine. But I read your posts to my mom and
now she says, okay, you know, so like I could
see how Charlie's. death and our communicating
about it was helping facilitate conversations.
And one thing back to the whole how distorted
your mind can be when you're in that suicidal
state. One young woman messaged me. And mind
you, these are not people I'm close to. These
are like my social media network, like kind of
the broader edges, right? This young woman messaged
me and said she had been suicidal for quite some
time. She had struggled to the point where she
had planned the time and the place and the method.
She had the plans. And she read my messages,
my posts. And she said they helped her realize
how sad her mother would be if she died. That's
how distorted your mind gets. Is you think that
you die and your mother is not going to be sad.
And she's still with us. That young lady is still
with us. That's why we have to talk about it.
If that's the thing that says, oh, maybe I shouldn't
do that. My mom would be really bummed out. You
know, if that's what it takes, let's do it. So
that is, I've heard remarkable stories and not
even as dramatic. Some just saying, hey, I. realize
i've never had this hard conversation with my
kids or my husband or my friend that i've always
worried about but i've never said anything to
them so you just say it you just have that conversation
or you listen you listen differently talking
about that realization when the young woman read
it to her or had the realization that her mother
would be sad i think this is one of the things
Going back to how we described that distorted
reality that I feel needs to be front and center
in these conversations on the posters is if you
start believing that you're a burden to the people
you love. I think that's a big red flag that's
being waved, but it's not what we talk about.
It's like, oh, if you're sad all the time, call
this number. With all due respect, a lot of these
people are not going to want to call a number
by this point. If you can get into, as you said,
Charlie did once. fantastic but if if you're
hearing if you yourself have the the strength
still to start hearing this voice and go oh you
know this is this is what they told me about
and then start asking for help that's amazing
but i think it's also for everyone around that
person if they start saying i'm a piece of shit
you know and the reason you know my kids are
scared of me whatever the thing is That is that
distorted reality rearing its head. And that's
the time for you to really, if you haven't before,
say, hey, you know, we need to go sit down and
have a talk because, you know, that's not right.
And be able to pull them back into reality and
find the healing modalities. As I mentioned,
there are so many from equine therapy to MDMA
to find your own unique toolbox too. I think
this is another discouraging thing is some of
these men and women and children. have the courage
to say, I'm hurting. They get put in front of
a counselor who's not the right match. It makes
it worse. And they're like, well, I must be crazy
then. And then I've sadly, I think that was the
final nail in a lot of coffins rather than being
told, look, there is such a diverse toolbox.
You could go and do a canoeing retreat with a
bunch of special forces guys, or you can, you
know, the dogs, I know you lost your dog. I mean,
my, I was. devastated when i lost my dog but
that was one of the most healing things as my
german shepherd and you start collecting all
these little pieces that perfect storm of ill
health that you went on well it's the reverse
you can create your own jigsaw puzzle of what
works for you and it's fluid as you start healing
from some things now you might find other things
you know nurturing but You've got to give people
this hope that, you know, A, this is distorted
reality and B, that you can not only come out
the other side, but I would argue, again, listening
to all these stories, you know, Charlie 2 .0
would have been even stronger and more empathetic
had he been able to navigate that because he's,
you know, he can now say, I've been there and
let me help you kind of, you know, walk your
way through. And all these people would have
come out the woodwork and said, Charlie, how
did you do it? And so I think we honor the Charlies
of the world. by trying to educate people on
the warning signs and the contributing factors,
but then also give them hope to be like, look,
there are so many things that you can do. And
you've tried three of them and it didn't work,
but maybe number four was the thing that was
missing. Absolutely. And I think particularly
for men and even young men, understanding all
the different tools, that it's not just laying
on a sofa, pouring out your emotions. And that
there are things that can be quite comfortable
and even feel really good, you know, especially
when you talk about anything having to do with
animals or outdoors. you know physical i mean
it's huge i mean i just as a matter of routine
i just walk outside in my yard and walk around
feel the grass on my feet and let the sun on
my face and i mean it's you know doesn't solve
everything but it it's nice and and i think one
of the things that i didn't fully appreciate
until i started really diving in to try and understand
Because I've had depression on and off my life.
I've had anxiety. It's been treated, you know,
different ways, talk therapy, medication. I think
my darkest moments have come when I felt trapped.
And that trap is not real, right? And yeah, sometimes
we get ourselves in situations where we feel
like there's no way out, but there is always,
always a way out. That doesn't mean it's necessarily
easy. It doesn't mean it's anything you want
to do, but there is always a way out. And I think
that, you know, I mean, we don't, we won't know
what was going on in Charlie's mind. We don't
know what's going on in the minds of people who,
you know, die by suicide, but. That it makes
sense to me that that sense of there's nothing
else I can do. I have no other avenues. So I'm
going to take this one, this awful, deadly, permanent
one. That's again, it's distorted thinking, but
it's that feeling of. I will never be happy.
I will never have the relationship I want. I
will never have the life I want. I will never
have the, you know, freedom I want. I will never,
you know, whatever it is, the health I want,
the success and feeling trapped by that. And
that can tip people over. And it's kind of like
we were saying. you know, about expectations
for ourselves and what's really driving us and
making us happy. I mean, anything that is powerful
enough to trap us is also powerful enough to
set us free. Absolutely. I think this is the,
in my world, the mental health conversation has
always been, oh, we got to smash the stigma.
The last, you know, eight, nine years, that's
kind of been the rhetoric. And, you know, what
I've said is that, yes. But okay, imagine stigma
smashed. Has it actually fixed anything? Really?
No, maybe just maybe you've given a little bit
more opportunity for people to reach out, but
you haven't actually talked about solutions.
Like you said, I mean, in the first responder
professions, they're literally in the VA. They're
usually offered pills and talk therapy is pretty
much it. And it's expanding more as people are
starting to kind of light the fires of some of
these other healing modalities. But I think where
we've really failed is to talk about post -traumatic
growth. I mean, you're a perfect example. You
know, if I'd spoken to you a couple of years
ago, I'm sure it would have been a very different
conversation. But it doesn't mean that the pain
isn't still there. It doesn't mean that you don't
have highs and lows. But now you've become a
beacon of light for others. And so getting people
to understand, oh, no, you're not going to just
be okay. That's not the point. And this is why
I think. Sometimes we do a disservice when we're
out there saying, I'm living with my whatever,
and it's a very sad story. I think that you haven't
gone far enough yet. I know it's easy for me
to say sitting here, but I think that metamorphosis,
that 2 .0 version of yourself, and I always liken
it to the, I forget the term, but when the Japanese
fixed the broken pottery with gold glue. I mean,
that's who you are now. That needs to be the
conversation. So people are actually driven to
do the healing because they're like, no, no,
no. I'm looking at you now on the other side
and you're even stronger than you ever been in
your entire life. That is you. You just got to
keep going, find the right tools, find the right
path, accumulate the people that will hold your
hand through this. And then one day you're going
to be holding other people's hands and telling
them, hey, I've been in that dark forest and
I'm going to lead you out. But if it's very doom
and gloom and, you know, you got your therapy
dog everywhere you go, which, again, absolutely
has an application. But that's kind of presented
to us now in my profession. This is a firefighter
with PTSD. He's got his dog. He's got his, you
know, retirement benefits, whatever the thing
is. And I think that. that is not the best messaging.
Some people may stop there and I get it, but
so many people I think can progress so much further.
And that makes going through that dark place
exciting. If you know that there's a better version
on the way on the other side. You know, I, I've
learned, or I've realized that, you know, so
you lose someone, you have a trauma, And it throws
you off in every way. And you think the point
is to get back to some sense of normalcy so that
you can carry on. But the fact is, even before
that trauma or that loss, you were never meant
to be in one place and never evolve and grow.
Life is. always, always changing. I mean, we
grow up as people, we have our education, we
have our families, we have our careers, we have
our arts and our passions and our hobbies and
our community, and it is always changing. So
to think that after a trauma, or an illness or
a loss, that the point is to just get on steady
ground so you can keep walking on a treadmill,
that's ignoring your basic existence as a human
your whole life. You were always meant to be
moving forward. And maybe it's fast, maybe it's
slow. Maybe it looks a lot different than you
thought it would. but you're always trying to
move forward and all this this trauma or this
pain that you experienced did was scramble that
journey it's all it did and you're walking forward
with different tools different experiences different
you know wisdom and strengths but it's but you've
got to keep moving i mean You know, the cliche
is, you know, when you retire, you don't stop
living because you stop working. I mean, right.
You know, so why would we, why would we ever
say, okay, well, I'm just now going to have my,
my, you know, my therapy dog and my retirement
income and just sit. You weren't meant to do
that anyway, whether all that stuff had happened
to you before anyway. Yeah, I agree 100%. Well,
speaking of tools that are out there, you mentioned
about making posts, you know, about, you know,
how you were feeling and some of the kind of
perspectives that you had as you progress through
the grief journey. Talk to me about how that
writing has morphed into the book Blackbird.
I realized how helpful writing was to me to try
and understand my grief and pain and shame. Very
common. A lot of people turn to writing, whether
it's journaling or poetry or stories. And there's
a reason for that. I think that sometimes things
that are in our mind and our brain that are very
tangled and thorny can be unwound on paper. maybe
a little more safely and easily. And so this
helped me. And I also realized, so I'm a big
reader. I love to consume books of all types,
all formats. And so when I was really deep in
my grief, I naturally turned to books to try
and understand what was going on with me. and
in my body and my mind and my soul and um there's
a lot out there it is a very well covered field
because this is part of the human experience
loss death shock and yet a couple of things happened
um One, I was grieving, so I had no attention
span. My brain was literally scrambled eggs.
I could not talk. I could not speak clearly,
make decisions, certainly couldn't handle complex
topics. And I couldn't focus. When you're grieving,
when you're in deep grief, your brain does not
function. Literally, it does not work. And so
I would pick up a book and I couldn't focus on
the page, but I was hungry for the information.
And then I also realized that for grief anyway,
books seem to fall into a couple of categories.
One are self -help. So those are written by experts.
They could be spiritual experts. They could be
psychologists. They could be psychiatrists. Even
people who deal with nutrition and outdoors.
And it's like there's always a focus of a topic
that this expert has dedicated their life to
and they want to share what they know and they
want to say, do this and it'll help you. Or you
have memoirs, which are great because those are
the personal stories, the human experience. We
see each other in other stories, right? We can
relate. hopefully, through that connection and
go, oh, me too, right? Very powerful. The problem
is when you are in a deep grief state or when
you're going through trauma, and my therapist
is a trauma therapist, not a grief therapist,
because it is traumatic to lose a child to suicide.
It's traumatic to lose a child. I could not.
take all that information. I could not, I didn't,
I was very selfish in my grief. I didn't care
about someone's life history in a bio, right?
I didn't care about what happened to them 20
years ago and how it led them to this point where
they're experiencing what I'm supposed to be
trying to relate to. I wanted to know what was
happening to me at that moment and how am I supposed
to go forward? And so, As I wrote, I started
to organize and assemble what became my book,
Blackbird. And I was very intentional about writing
it not as a memoir or a biography. It is not
Charlie's life story. It is not my life story.
It is what happened to us and how I got through
for about 18, 15 months. It is intentionally
written in short passages. Some are very short,
just a line or two. The longest would be like
two pages, kind of writing a story or an essay
that's pulling on a lot of different things.
And it's observations, it's reactions, it's conflict,
it's, you know, big thoughts, it's little thoughts,
and it's meant to be put down. It's heavy. It's
about what happens, you know, in the worst thing
that I have ever experienced. It's a lot to take
in. And I wanted to make it easy for the reader
to be able to read something very heavy and serious
and put it down and walk away from it and not
have to remember characters or timelines or settings.
and um or rules and studies and science and things
so put it down pick it up so you can understand
it when you're ready but that also didn't shy
away from the hard facts didn't shy away from
the hard emotions that that faced the contradictions
and the confusion that laid bare the shame because
as a parent who's going through this i don't
want anybody else to go through this i don't
want anybody to ever have to be in a situation
where they have they're trying to figure out
how to pick up their life after someone they
love has died by suicide so the more honest and
forthcoming you be about the realities of those
situations i i hope will will help people avoid
this being in this situation and so um it is
blackbird is designed to be um consumed at your
own pace without having to get lost in backstory
or explanations and and but it does move forward
because we must always be moving forward and
there are through lines and the story's still
going on but i i think it ends on a reasonably
optimistic note also dark humor do not want to
underestimate the importance of dark humor um
it's been very helpful so you know there's some
pretty absurd things happen and um we put that
all out there too Well, I said this to you before
we hit recording. It was beautifully written
as well. And what I mean by that is, as I learned
trying to write, you know, navigate my books,
you have to use, you know, grammar and vocabulary
in a certain way to really pull that raw emotion
that you obviously especially are feeling so
deeply and, you know, allow the person reading
it to receive that. But it's not just a bunch
of scribble. It's not just, you know, Instagram
posts. It's actually... written in a way where
you can feel each of those little moments and
even like you said the kind of bite -sized pieces
the first one i wrote was only 180 pages and
i think there was i should know this i wrote
the damn thing but i think it was 16 chapters
and i wrote it for the sleep deprived firefighter
you know they don't want to read a 500 page book
they can't read a 500 page book so whether it's
that or whether it's grief This is, you know,
you can, as you said, just open it and be like,
all right, this is the takeaway today. I'm going
to read two pages of Blackbird. But like you
said, you're immediately able to jump in. It's
not like you've got to go back now and, you know,
who was the murderer again? Right, exactly. It's
exactly like you said. What conversation upset
them? And yeah, no. And I, as the writing exercise
part of it, I thought was really good for me.
You know, I would write something out and it
would be. three pages and i would say get this
down to three paragraphs what is the most essential
thing that a reader needs to know the only thing
they need to know and and that's when you're
talking about emotion there's this The sense
that we need to just carry on and flow and, you
know, wallow in it. And trust me, I was wallowing.
But like, how can you find the words to, you
know, really be as powerful as possible? My dog
is joining. Yeah, no problem. So people listening,
then where can they find the book? The book is
available anywhere books are sold and certainly
online at Amazon and barnesandnoble .com. You're
fine. The thing about this podcast, it's just
two people having the conversation. It's never
meant to be in a studio. So doorbells ring, dogs
bark. We're almost done. Almost done. Hey, Bonnie.
Hush. I'll ask the question again so we can loop
it in. Okay. So for people listening, where can
they find the book? Blackbird is available anywhere
that books are sold. Amazon, barnesandnoble .com,
bookshop .org, which is great for helping independent
bookstores. You could also go into a brick and
mortar store and order it there. And I have a
website. blackbirdbetsy .com and you can order
the book directly through the website for a bit
of a discount. The link is right there on the
page. And then you mentioned about social media
platforms. Where are the best places to find
you? Probably most active on Instagram, blackbirdbetsy21
on Instagram. Brilliant. Well, I want to thank
you so much. We've been talking for over two
hours now and I want to be mindful of your time,
but it's just been such an important conversation.
I mean, you know, your kind of journey itself,
but then obviously Charlie and what you did with
that grief. I mean, it can be buried down. You
can kind of keep, keep it secret of what even
happened and it doesn't bring solutions to the
problem then. And like you said, that ends up
kind of steeping within the family as well. Being
so courageously vulnerable with your story and
then allowing other people to learn from the
experiences that you've had through Blackbird
has been a really powerful conversation. So I
want to thank you so, so much for being so generous
with your time and coming on the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Thank you. And thank you for what
you're doing to be a channel and a megaphone
for helping people tell their stories. It's so
important to meet people where they are. And
clearly you are, you know, you are connecting
with people and hopefully that will make a difference.