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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you
think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome
to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,
my name is James Gearing and this week it is
my absolute honor to welcome on the show law
enforcement veteran, army soldier, and the man
behind the Encore Project Foundation, Jeff Moorfield.
Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of
topics from his journey into the world of policing,
tornadoes, dive teams, gangs, and most importantly,
the transition from the first responder and military
professions into the next chapter. Now, before
we get to this incredible conversation, as I
say every week, please just take a moment, go
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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
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return is that you help share these incredible
men and women's stories so I can get them to
every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce
to you Jeff Moorfield. Enjoy. Well, Jeff, I want
to start by saying two things. Firstly, I'm glad
that your gardens are going to look amazing when
the landscapers are done. And secondly, I want
to welcome you to the Behind the Shield podcast
today. I love being here, James, man. It's an
absolute pleasure. I've been seeing what you're
doing on various different sites, social media,
and all the rest of the stuff. And it's just
an absolute pleasure to be here to be able to
talk to a firefighter, you know what I mean,
as a police. You know, as a police officer myself,
you know, sometimes we don't get those great
conversations going. But I fear I see that this
one's going to be a good one. Absolutely. And
just to throw it back for people listening, they
will start felling a tree outside my window at
some point. So there's going to be just as much
background noise there. So we'll see if we can
kind of dampen it in the editing room a little
bit. Hopefully mine will be done in about five
minutes. Yeah, well, they just pulled up a wood
chipper. So I'm assuming it's going to be pretty
damn loud on my side, but we'll see. They have
a job to do as well. All right. Well, very first
question. Where on planet Earth are we finding
you today? I am in the Edmond, Oklahoma location.
It's the greater OKC. It's what a lot of people
call the land of milk and honey, Sparkle City.
It's a pretty up -to -do type of area, but it's
Edmond, Oklahoma. It's just on the north side
of Oklahoma City. Population of about 100 ,000
people, 100 square miles. Been here since about
1994. I'm going to ask a question purely because
my son just asked it the other day because he,
for some reason, got pulled into, I think it
was the new Twister movie, and then he watched
the documentary on the fatal one that they had
a few years ago in, I think it was Missouri.
And anyway, he said, have you had many people
talking about hurricanes? And so seeing as you're
in Oklahoma, not hurricanes, excuse me, tornadoes,
what has been your experience as a resident there
over the years as far as the impact of tornadoes
in your area? Well, here's where my honesty is
going to come out, brother. So in 1999, actually,
let's go back to my childhood. So my father was
in the military. He was an Air Force pilot for
27 years. And we would PCS from Tinker Air Force
Base to various different other bases around
the country, but then also in the world. I actually
graduated high school in Ramstein, Germany. But
when I was a kid and during those three years,
I think it was 1981 to 85 timeframe. There was
a tornado that came through and we're in an area
just east of Oklahoma City. And I remember literally
laying in the hallway with mattresses over our
head, you know, because it was thought that that
tornado was going to come over our head. And
obviously the Doppler systems back then weren't
as accurate as they are now. But, you know, that
was my first experience. And then kind of going
into my adult life, I... came back here and went
to the University of Central Oklahoma, played
soccer here for a couple of years. And some of
the things that I saw was not only just the Murrah
bombing, but you had the tornadoes. And in 1999,
I was a police officer for about two years. And
on May 3rd of 1999, the biggest F5 tornado came
through the south side of Oklahoma City. And
as a police officer, 25 years old, that kind
of thing, driving your police car down a I -40
interstate in complete darkness made you rethink
what tornadoes can do. And when we got off the
off ramp, we actually missed the off ramp to
go to the command post because it was so dark,
you couldn't see it. And so we went down another
mile down to Indian Hills and we turned back
around. And I get off the off ramp and I see
a car on my left side and it is completely skeletonized.
I mean, the only thing that's left of it is the
frame. We pull up into a church and this church
is a pretty large amount of pretty large church,
got a huge parking lot. And that's where the
command post was there. But I could look up at
the church and I could see this two by four.
And it is a huge two by four that was literally
embedded in the brick and had never seen anything
like that before. And then, you know, once we
corralled and got ourselves together. We deployed
out to our area of operations and we were still
dealing with gas leaks and people trying to find
their loved ones and all the rest of that stuff.
And so I was put in an area where I was in traffic
control, basically, who was allowed in, who was
allowed out. And that was probably the longest
36 hours or one of them that I had been on in
my entire life. And then coming out of that,
the sun rising and seeing all the destruction,
you go back. And you're looking at it again.
And then in May of 2013, there was another one
that came through right in the same city. And
this one was, I mean, just absolute destruction.
And I was on the SWAT team at the time. And so
they deployed us out to an area that was got
a lot of national visibility. And so we, you
know, we're the protective. force around the
neighborhood. The national media was literally
right where my area was at. And so, you know,
we had to not only look for victims, look for
survivors. You know, you're walking in areas
and you feel absolutely so bad when you're walking
through these areas and you look down and you
stepped on a family's picture. You know what
I mean? As you're going through all the rubble
and you're just like your heart just melts. You
know what I mean? You know, you're at the school
that got just completely destroyed. You're pulling
kids out of there and that type of thing. And
that so you ask about my experience in tornadoes.
There is a lot. My wife thinks I'm an absolute
idiot because there's times where I look at the
Doppler and I go, well, listen, if it ain't within
about a half a mile, I'm not really worried.
You know what I mean? Because I know, you know,
I know the trajectory. I know where it's going.
I can literally see it and I can predict where
it's going to go just because you're around it
so much. And then obviously seeing the ones that
are continuously going right now, you know, we
just you're we're constantly under that kind
of that threat, you know. And so you just you
live and learn from it. You understand it. You
know, you know, I have a storm shelter and, you
know, you do all your your. your your packing
of your stuff and you make sure your kids know
what to do and all the rest of stuff and you
know and how do you how do you just make sure
that you're going to survive whatever type of
event that comes through it's just that mindset
what is your perception on how long events like
that stay in the media because when i think about
tornadoes in my mind and it may I don't have
the news so it's more relying on you know presence
on social media and then diving in and you know
BBC and some of those other ones but I I think
about okay this happened today and then that's
it it's gone but then you actually look at the
devastation that some of these tornadoes cause
and kind of like North Carolina with with the
floods there It seems like it's in for a couple
of days and it's forgotten. Meanwhile, the people
of North Carolina are still digging their loved
ones out of the mud today. So what is your perception
on a national scale of how much exposure these
events actually get in your area? So I think
on the national side, it just gets a couple of
days, maybe a week. It depends on the destruction.
You know what I mean? I can say that May 3rd
to April, The May 3rd tornado and then also the
one in 2013. I mean, it obviously got some national
attention. So it was there for a while. But the
ones that are still, you know, F3s, F4s that
come through and like there's a there's a there's
a city that literally was just wiped out here
in Oklahoma last year. And they're still. It's
a year later. They're still in recovery efforts.
You know, I mean, and the only ones that really
do kind of focus on that are your local people,
your local medias, your local newspapers, whatever
it is. They're the ones that are giving that
visibility to them. But on a national scale,
it's there for a little bit. And then they move
on to the next story. And that's. And I get it.
I understand. But at the same time, lives are
affected and things are going on. And you still
have a massive impact. They're still rebuilding.
They're still trying to get their economy back
up and going. People lost jobs. This last one,
they had police officers and firefighters that
were going and dealing with the aftermath while
their stuff is getting destroyed. You know what
I mean? So it's just and I'm sure it's the same
thing in Florida on on hurricanes and stuff like
that. You know, I actually in the National Guard
side of the house, I went to Hurricane Harvey
down there by the Houston area. And we were deployed
down there out of Oklahoma. And you saw the devastation
of that hurricane. And that hurricane took forever
to get, you know, for that economy to come back.
Port Aransas is a is a big, you know, very well
-known area down in that area. And it was completely
destroyed. And, you know, when we go down there
and see that, you're looking at it, you're like,
how in the world can they rebuild from that?
And it takes a few years. But to go back to your
point, it's on there for a little bit and then
it disappears. I just want to take a step back.
And this is apolitical, you know, both sides.
What normally ends up taking the attention off
is, oh, this politician said this or this politician
did that. And, you know, and now all of a sudden
we're talking about stuff that isn't. helping
fellow americans and it pulls the focus and it
pulls the funding probably and it pulls the fema
response i would assume you know because now
we've forgotten about that you know it's not
on the tv anymore so i think it's you know it's
something worth a conversation like how long
should we retain the focus on that and you know
should we be kept up on on the rebuild and how
people how are people doing and you know people
now finding their their way into a home now versus
a trailer i mean You know, you look at some of
the things from Katrina and then the Puerto Rico
hurricanes and, you know, years later, some people
are still not back to where they should have
been. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think
they're, you know, in the media side, and obviously
I'm not in the media, but I think if they were
to say, all right, hey, listen, let's go and
see what good stories are out of. you know, out
of this, you know, what, what have people done
to rebuild? What, what are some, some good lessons
learned so we can actually talk about it. Right.
So, because I think sometimes what happens is
those lessons learned are just stayed in a vacuum.
You know, they're not, if, if, if they're just
stayed there in that vacuum, then nobody else
can learn, you know, Houston, you know, New Orleans,
you know. Tampa, Florida, all the rest of the
stuff, if they don't learn that lesson that,
you know, that they learned, how are they going
to know? You know what I mean? And I think the
biggest, whether it's social media or just the
media itself, the local media, you know, I remember
doing just a local story here and it blew up
and it ended up on, you know, Fox and Friends.
You know, it was just because of an initiative
that we had taken on during COVID and all of
a sudden it was. It was boom. It was out there.
You know what I mean? So I think there's value
in looking at something where, yeah, you had
it. It was devastation. It was bad, all the rest
of the stuff. And I think that's, unfortunately,
that's where the media focuses a lot on. But
they need to go back a month, three months, six
months later and go, hey, listen, these are some
of the things that they have done to position
and prove their. community their townships all
the rest of stuff right even to you know fire
response police response you know uh female response
you know what have they done to improve themselves
and i think the other thing is how can we help
i think people still want to keep helping but
you need to be focused all right well this initial
thing now you know food and diapers and all that
stuff we're good with that but yeah you can help
contribute to the rebuild or you know whatever
it is because there's a lot of people that are
wanting to donate And there's that term donation
fatigue, and I understand it. Every man and his
dog has got to go fund me these days. So again,
how can we kind of band together? Okay, well,
these people really need our help right now and
refocus that kind of altruism in the States.
Yeah, it's that sustainability, you know, that
it's got to stay on the radar. You know what
I mean? And if it's not on the radar, then people
are, you know, they, it's just like everyday
lives, you know, whatever's in, if you look at
their calendar, they're just attacking their
calendar for that next 24. You know what I mean?
They've already forgotten about the last, you
know, three weeks or whatever it was, you know
what I mean? So it's just keeping it on their
calendar, on their radar, you know, and I think
if you intentionally do stuff like that, then
maybe, you know, things will become much more
positive. It's funny you mentioned about the
echo chamber not learning. I see the same in,
you know, I know fire. I mean, I don't know if
it's the same in the police, but until people
have actually worked in the States, you don't.
And then certainly if you've been in multiple
departments where you get more of a 10 ,000 foot
view, you realize how fragmented our profession
actually is. And not only is there cities and
counties, but in some places, cities and counties
won't even talk to each other and PD and FT won't
talk to each other. And so you have this, all
these good people reinventing the wheel, whether
it's a mental health initiative, whether it's
a training initiative, whether it's trying to
bring, you know, police and fire together for
the next, God forbid, you know, school shooting.
But there's so much wasted energy because I feel
though, even when we've got unions and some other,
you know, air quotes, national organizations,
I don't feel like they do pull us together. And
there's a lot of wasted effort on dissemination
of knowledge. And therefore people kind of, starting
from the bottom when you know maybe two states
over someone's figured it out and i've got a
great program that they could just adopt yeah
i think i'm glad you said that because i just
had a conversation with a friend of mine today
on just the umbrella of synchronization right
so you know when we respond to things when we
go out to certain instances or whatever it is
you know the police are they're in their lane
The fire in their lane, EMS are in their lane,
right? Dispatches in their lane. And a lot of
times what happens is they just stay in that
lane. And they don't look at kind of the bigger
picture, right, of the totality. And I get into
this a lot, James, when it talks to we are very
linear and hierarchy oriented instead of strategy
oriented. Right. So, you know, when we and that's
all by rank and, you know, all the rest of that
stuff. Right. So you have a task and purpose
and it's all by rank and what you do and your
position description, all the rest of that stuff.
But we get so honed in on that that we can't
look at the bigger picture. And that goes not
just for the line guys or the middle management
side. That's even the hierarchy. And I think
sometimes what they do is they go, well, I can't
talk to that that other entity because. I don't
know anything about them. Right. So, okay. So
you're just going to stay over here in this corner
and not know anything when you guys are doing
mutual aid type responses. And I'm not saying
that that doesn't happen, but there's a lot of
times where, you know, think we would show up
to certain incidents or whatever it is and fires
doing this, we're doing this and all that. And
then it's like, okay, so what did we learn from
that? You know, where, where's the big. you know
effort within the fr community to say hey listen
you know what did we do right what did we do
wrong right and then how can we put those lessons
learned or an after action review whatever you
want to call it right and then let's let's look
at it you know how can we improve it and not
only that why don't we share that in other organizations
so i i i don't know of a kind of a multi entity,
association that brings in police, fire, EMS,
all kind of your first responder umbrella where
they all talk to each other. Right. And that's
that's something that's very, you know, police
oriented fire. And I've been to so many different
conferences now. It's all within their lanes
and they just kind of just stay in their lanes.
And that sometimes can cause some friction. Absolutely.
Yeah, I agree completely. You mentioned about
Germany. So let's go back to early life. Where
where did you find yourself internationally?
And then when you reflect back now, what was
some of the things about that particular country
that, you know, you think fondly of now? Oh,
man. Well, I will tell you. So there's a there's
some positive and negatives about, you know,
being a military brat. And I'll kind of hone
in first on the positives. You know, I was born
in Blyville, Arkansas, and it's not even that
base anymore. And then I went to Del Rio, Texas,
and my dad was a flight instructor there and
then moved up to Tinker Air Force Base. And that
was 1981 to 85. And then we PCS permanent changes
the station out to Ramstein, Germany. So I was
fourth grade through sixth grade. This is 1985
to 88. And this is during the Cold War. So the
wall was up. East Germany, West Germany, all
your communist countries, all the rest of that
stuff. But if you remember, too, James, at that
time, Libya was bombing everything in Western
Europe. They were going around to every U .S.-oriented
type facility and bombing it. You would drive
up to the Air Force Base gate and, you know,
you'd pull up and they'd have sandbags and they
have an M -60, you know, just. on its tripod,
and they're searching underneath your car, all
the rest of this stuff. And as a fourth grader,
right, coming from the United States, seeing
that, you're going, what's going on here? You
know what I mean? Why do we have all this stuff
going on? But then going into the actual base
and just learning the culture and learning the
food and learning the school system. And, you
know, we lived on base, but we were able to travel.
And one of the things that really made me value
the United States of America was in fifth grade.
I want to, it was a boy scout trip. Um, and we
went to East Berlin. So we ended up going through
West Berlin and, uh, went into, into East through
checkpoint Charlie. You could see the wall. So
on the, on the West side of Berlin, you have
all the spray paintings of the murals and all
the rest of the stuff for the people that have
tried to jump the wall, but were killed. And
so we went on a bus. We went to East Germany.
We're walking around. We're seeing Brandenburg
Gate and all the rest of that stuff. And I remember
an East German guard coming up to me and taking
a camera that I had. And back then, you know,
you had film in the camera. And so you're taking
a picture. And that East German guard took that
camera, opened it, ripped the film out, threw
it, and just yelled at me, right? And whether
it was Russian or German, I don't remember. But
then what they told us was like, you couldn't
buy anything on that market. And if, if you've
ever seen any East German money, it's all, it
looks like funny money. It's all real light.
And it just, it doesn't look real. So I bought
this, they told us we couldn't buy anything,
but I did anyway, typical American. So I, I bought
this little bear. It was a, I don't remember
what kind of, it was called a stife. Anyway,
so I bring it on the bus and we're coming back
through and we're, we're going through. checkpoint
Charlie to go back onto the West side. And I
remember this Russian Eastern guard with his
AK 47, just, you know, walking up, we've got
our passports up against the, up against the
window and he gets pissed. And I'm like, Oh Lord,
what's going on? So he comes up onto the bus,
walks around. And I think I'm done. Cause I have
this bear, right? I'm like, I'm thinking I'm
never going to see my family again. I'm not,
I mean, all that stuff, all that fear. Went right
in through my body. And he gets off the bus,
waves us through. And my parents are waiting
on the other side. And it was like a homecoming.
Like I ran off that bus, grabbed my stuff. I
wrapped my arms around my mom. I was like, do
not ever send me to a communist area ever again.
Right. So, you know, on the positive side, I
really saw the value of what the U .S. is for.
You know what I mean? The freedom, the ability
to. to have the laws that we have, the freedom
of speech and all the rest of the stuff that
we have here. And then I went back to Tinker
and spent some time there. And then I went, my
dad got PCS'd again a month into my senior year
in high school. And we had to go back to Germany.
And I'll be honest with you, James, I was not
a very happy camper because I was... varsity
everything i was i was doing all the things athletically
wise you know i really kind of grew my roots
because you know i was actually somewhere for
a long period of time and i was actually starting
to create relationships and now to be ripped
out of that and go 7 000 miles away um it really
really destroyed me internally But the good thing
is, is my mom sat me down at a Baskin Robbins
ice cream store and said, hey, listen, son, you're
going to have to get your shit straight. And
I'm like, all right. So I ended up going. I didn't
do any sports, but I went to JROTC. And I really
love the uniform. I love with my dad. I respect
what my dad did. My grandfather was a P -38 pilot
in World War II. We actually flew out of, we
actually went to his airfield in England. and
saw the airfield that he flew out of. And I cannot
remember off the top of my head what the name
of it is. But really got to understand history,
learn history. I went to, you know, we went to
Normandy. In a JROTC setting, I went and did
a lot of rifle team competitions. And one of
them was in London, England. And just, you know,
all those things that we got to do, you know,
and just expanded my mind on what Europe was
like. You know, I went to I went to Lisbon, Portugal.
I did, you know, you know, I did Aviano, Italy
and just all these places that we went to and
really got to see the culture that is out there.
And then, you know, I got I got accepted at the
University of Central Oklahoma and came here.
And that was in 1994. And my parents were still
stationed in Germany at the time. So I did two
years of college. away from them, but I would
go back every Christmas and summer back to Germany
and hang out with them, do some trips, that kind
of thing. But I haven't been back since I was
19 years old and I cannot wait to go back. I
look forward to taking my wife and child over
there. I think it's absolutely essential that
they see it, that they feel it, they understand
the culture, they understand the food, the language,
all those things. I think it's extremely important.
For them to know that and not just be in the
bubble of the United States. And so anyway, that's
that was my experience. Now, my negative side,
as I kind of touched on a little bit before that
whole movement piece created a lot of relationship
issues that I would have. I would get I would
only gain about surface oriented relationships.
So it was really hard for me to trust and be
able to. have those deep relationships with people.
And that, that went into my, into my service
in the army that went into my, you know, service
in the police department, that kind of thing.
But as I grew here and as I, as I gained knowledge
and good friendships, you know, that, that had
started to go away. But that was, you know, that's,
that's really kind of the negative that I could
see out of it. But, you know, you always, you
always pull yourself out of it. You know, you,
you figure it out. Amazing. It just reminded
me, I watched that docu -series Turning Point.
There's one on 9 -11, there's one on the Cold
War. And they tell the story of how the wall
came down in Berlin. And I'm going to probably
butcher it, but it was something to the effect
that they finally, under national pressure, said,
OK, we're going to let a few people go through.
And I think the initial thing was you kind of
relinquished your citizenship in the East. You
had to give them your passport. You walk through
and then you never come back again. Well, they
send, you know, all these people start lining
up down by the wall, by the checkpoint, excuse
me. And they're going through and they're like,
yeah, this is what we've been told. And I guess
they were trying to get hold of Russia to say,
okay, what are we doing here? And they weren't
answering. They were kind of like ignoring everything.
So then they first let them through. And then
some of these people were like, well, actually,
I need to get back to my family. So then they
were, you know, umming and ahhing, they let them
back through. And what happened is word got around
and people started pouring through. And then
the word was, you know, the borders are open.
We're good. And it was all because I think there
was one one guy and it was really interesting
the way they put it. He did a press conference
and this is how it all started. He just did a
press conference and said, we're going to open
it. But he was flustered because when you are
a dictator, you know, or, you know, a communist
regime, you don't do interviews. You tell everyone
what's going to happen. So now he's on this national
stage. He does an interview, completely falls
apart, says the wrong thing. People go to the
border. They start confusing the guards. The
guards are just basically like, well, fuck it.
Just go through. No one's given us any orders.
And that is actually how the wall came down.
That led to all these people going through and
then they started chipping at the wall. And I
didn't realize that. I thought it was kind of
a little bit more diplomatic than that, but it
really wasn't. It was just a kind of crumbling
of the entire. facade that was this you know
this barrier between the east german people and
the west german people so i mean the the swell
of support that you know started growing once
some of the people started chipping away and
we're all pouring through and you know relatives
were reunited after all those years um yeah all
because there's one one communist couldn't do
a very good press conference it's kind of actually
quite funny when you look at the backstory Yeah.
Yeah. God bless state, state run TV, right? Exactly.
Exactly. Yeah. It's, it's, you know, it's, it's
great, James, because, you know, my family and
I, we, we were able to, to gain a couple of pieces
of the wall, you know what I mean? And it's,
it's, it's, it's pretty neat that, you know,
we have that, you know, in our house and stuff
like that, because it was such, it was such a
big thing for us to see, you know, my dad over
there doing his thing in the, in the, in the
air force. And, you know, I did. I mean, we saw
it, you know, we saw the depression, the just
the look on people's faces like they you could
see, James, that they actually despise this being
there because they didn't want they didn't want
to see in the way that they were in, you know
what I mean? And the environment that they were
in. And that was that was heartbreaking to see
that, you know what I mean? And just and then
to be able to go back over, you know, and they
can't. I mean, that just that just pulls on you.
You know what I mean? And so and they would have
literally, James, they would right outside the
wall with these murals and they were just beautifully
spray painted. But they would have these little
platforms that they had built on the on the west
side to where you could kind of see over the
wall. Right. And you would have guard shacks.
I mean, and they would just they would just lock
in on you. You know what I mean? Like and that
was just. Could never, that's the value I cannot
stay. And every time I talk to my troops and
I've talked to various different people, I always
explain that, that we are so lucky to where we're
at right now. And to be able to experience that
as a young fifth grader was something I'll never
forget. Well, if you think as well, multi -generational
trauma, you have the Germans after losing the
First World War. So the average man and woman
are fighting, being told, okay, this is what
we have to do. Loads of them die, and they rot
in trenches just like the Allies do. They lose.
Now they go back to a massive depression. Then
this crazy little fucker with a mustache comes
up, starts getting everyone riled up. This is
how we're going to fix it. Same thing happens.
Hundreds of thousands of Germans die. you know
obviously some are horrendous people but most
are probably just thinking they're you know doing
the right thing for their country don't know
about a lot of the stuff that's going on behind
the closed doors and then again now they're half
you know westernized and half you know on the
communist side and then you know the war comes
down and you just think i mean generationally
what has that done to the germans i know a lot
of us look at them as you know they're the evil
but No, there's some tyrants that use them like
puppets, like we see even to present day, that
coax a lot of them into doing things. I would
say the same with the Russians that went into
Ukraine. Most of them probably couldn't give
a shit about going into that country. They just
want to be at home with their family. So this
kind of history repeating itself is so tragic
because then you get a broken down population.
Now they're easier to divide. And now the potential
of this happening yet again grows. Right. Yeah,
absolutely. And I even when I was in high school,
we would walk around and my the second tour that
we're in, we actually we actually made it purposeful
to live on outside off the base. So we lived
about 20 kilometers outside the base. We're in
the foothills of a small little mountain. We
actually had a castle in our in our backyard
that was up the hill. But we're in a cul -de
-sac and we purposely put ourselves into that
village setting. Because my dad and my mom were
very intentful to understand and know the Germans.
And we got to sit down and have just long talks
with the Germans back from World War II, even
before that. you know, their country developed
afterwards and where they're at now, the attitude
towards the West and all the rest of that stuff.
And one of the really great things that they
really appreciated was my parents putting my
youngest sister in a German elementary school.
So instead of going through a, you know, a DOD
school there on base, they wanted her to go in.
And I'll tell you what though, man. this was
a good thing because my dad really liked it so
when they would have parent teacher conferences
they would have a keg of beer out there so they
have a keg of german beer a little bit burger
or something like that so my dad was always at
the parent teacher conference um so they knew
how to do it up right you know so um but you
know just just getting to really kind of see
Their impact and how the West impacted them and
how their own people impacted them and that type
of thing. It was just it was a really, really
good, good relationship. And even now, my parents
had brought over two German exchange students.
And so they came over and they lived with us
for several years here in Oklahoma. And we have
multiple visits now. Like they come to us, we
go to them, they're all married, got kids, all
the rest of the stuff, but we consider them part
of the family. You know what I mean? And it's
just, it's just creating that type of relationship,
you know? And they, you know, obviously they
have their culture and their thought process,
but, you know, it's, it's such a, it's such a
good environment to be around, you know, different
cultures and, and, and seeing, you know, how
they live and what they do and all the rest of
the stuff as opposed to us. I went skiing a few
times while I was in elementary school, basically.
So the first time I think I was eight. So that
would have been 1984. So you're talking less
than 40 years after the war ended. And the Austrian
people are beautiful people. And then 2001, right
at midnight, I landed in Japan, lived there for
15 months. And beautiful people again. And again,
they were, you know. against us in world war
ii and you just see that you know it's that shared
humanity and when you look back over and over
again it's the greedy and you know power hungry
few that that ruin it for everyone and i'm hoping
that there's going to be like an awakening now
in this technological age where people are finally
seeing like those tall poppies are rotten and
you got to cut the head off and right you know
start again right Yeah, absolutely. And I think
it starts with just, you know, small relationships,
you know, because, you know, I remember being
overseas and, you know, seeing, you know, various
different countries like the Romanians, you know,
we worked with a lot more. And I, you know, Romania
back when I was a kid was part of the Eastern
Bloc. You know what I mean? And so and then now
you have a U .S. and a Romanian soldier together
and, you know, their their vehicles and all the
rest of stuff. It was like, you know, and they
talked about, you know, the the time before all
the rest of stuff and and how we're all, you
know, together now and doing it for the. for
the greater good and all the rest of that stuff.
I think it's amazing that, you know, it's, it's
at that point right now, but you know, it's,
and I still have a lot of those guys that are
still on my Facebooks and, and we still converse
and congratulate each other. Like I went through
a career course with a Pakistan officer, you
know what I mean? And, and he was probably one
of the most gracious, kind individuals I've ever
been around. You know what I mean? And so. um
it's it's just developing those relationships
because when it gets comes down to it when when
something kicks off they're going to remember
those relationships 100 well going back to kind
of your journey into the career as you were progressing
through the school ages were you thinking of
law enforcement or was there something ahead
of it yeah so it was kind of law enforcement
was was in in the in the idea But I was primarily
wanting to be a pilot, just like my father. He
was an AWACS pilot, just like my grandfather,
who was a P -38 pilot. And when I was in that
JROTC, like I talked about before, I actually
became one of the top cadets. And they actually
gave me the ability to fly a real F -16 flight
simulator in Ramstein. There was only two of
us that were allowed to do it. And so we got
in the cockpit, did our thing. The colonel went
over a couple things. And, you know, and took
off just fine, flying in the air, gave me the
ability to shoot down a C5. And they gave me
500 rounds and I went through 500 rounds just
like that. And then I asked about missiles and
they said, that's classified. You can't use it.
So so then then they gave me the the the version
or the concept of how to land the F -16. And
I said. OK, so you have your heads up display.
Right. And so this is going to get a little bit
of crude here. But what they say is they, you
know, let the let the egg, let the sperm eat
the meat, the egg. And I'm like, what? And so
they have two circles and one's got a tail. Right.
And so what you do is you meet those two and
that creates your flight path. Right. They come
down and land. And I'm like, OK, I'm a senior
in high school. I kind of get what you're talking
about. Right. So. I do the flight path and I
land just fine. And I get out of the cockpit
and the instructor there looked at me and he
goes, have you thought about being a pilot before?
And I said, well, that's what I want to do. And
he goes, you are born for it. I said, okay, well,
it's obviously in the lineage, right? You know,
I told you I went to University of Central Oklahoma,
played soccer there. But I also was in the at
University of Oklahoma and their ROTC program.
So the Air Force ROTC. So what I did at the time
is I was playing catch up. So I did two years
within one and was straight A's. All the rest
of the stuff did just fine. And then it was going
into my junior year and they were doing a health
evaluations on us. And because I was a dependent,
I had dependent records. medical records and
in those records i had an asthma attack when
i was five years old and they just automatically
disqualified me so you talk and this was right
after the gulf war so you know there's no um
they were not taking anybody with any type of
respiratory issues that type of stuff so obviously
in complete devastation um dream completely killed
um i then decided that I still wanted to stay
in uniform. I still want to serve. And a buddy
of mine asked me, hey, do you want to work at
the University Police Department as what they
call a student officer? I said, absolutely. That'd
be great. You know, junior year, I could make
some money at the same time. And not very much,
but you make some money. And so as I'm working
there, I really, you know, began to love the
job. I really got to see, you know, what the
police do. And on a university level, but we
also got to intermix with the local agency that
I ended up working with long term wise. And we
got to see him go on calls, deal with different
issues, you know, work with the fire departments,
all the ambulances, all the lights and sirens.
Right. All the cool things. And so I decided
that, you know, I'm going to I'm going to get
a major in criminal justice. And right at that
same point, my chief came up to me. I was 22
years old. He came up to me and he goes, hey,
Jeff, do you want to be a full time university
police department, full time university police?
And I told him, I said. I can do that because
you can do that, I said, and he goes, I'll tell
you what, if you say yes, I'll hire you right
now. And I said, well, all right. So I took a
full time job without any interviews, without
anything at a university. And, you know, I took
my MPIs, did all the things that you're supposed
to do. But, you know, I went to the academy in
1998 and was a full -time police officer August
1st of 1997 there. And obviously I was a junior
in college. And, you know, I went from a four
-year plan to a six -year plan because I had
to go through all the academy, the FTO, all the
rest of that stuff. And so I did that, was there
for a year. And then I left there and went to
a city called Yukon, Oklahoma, which is the home
of Garth Brooks. And went there and spent about
three years there. And then eventually in November
2001, moved up here to Edmond, Oklahoma and did
my last 22 year. And just thoroughly enjoyed
it. Love every bit of it. My boss called me the
shit magnet. on the shift. And it was just, it
was just one of those things where I loved getting
involved in, in various different aspects within
the job. I did several different things in the
job, anything from SWAT to underwater search
and recovery, field training officer, you know,
critical incident, FBI negotiator, all the rest
of that stuff. So it was, I loved my, I loved
my career. And I'm glad that kind of God shifted
me towards that. To be honest with you, I feel
like that was my true calling. Even though I
still get up and some Cessnas every once in a
while with some buddies of mine and I fly around,
I kind of get that itch. But I love the fact
that I don that uniform and help just so many
people in whatever situation they were in. You
talked about doing the kind of the crisis intervention
stuff. When we look now at all the kind of, you
know, trials and tribulations that the profession
of law enforcement has been dragged through,
through the press, some justified, many unjustified,
you know, the relationship with the community,
the ability to de -escalate obviously are tools
that a good officer would have. Talk to me about
that through your eyes. I mean, you had a high
level of training, you know, when it comes to
this. What is the importance of this interpersonal
skill when it comes to all areas of policing?
You know, the mental health side, the critical
incident side, or the crisis intervention, that
really didn't come into place until probably
about 10 or 12 years ago. I always look back
at Ferguson. as in 2013, at least for the police
world, as the tipping point or where we went
a different direction. You know, when that happened
in 2013, it was my experience that our policing
changed. And it's called the Ferguson Effect.
It's talked about everywhere. It is definitely
acknowledged. at least within the police world.
And I think from that really, it restricted us
in doing what we were really truly meant to do
and proactive policing, right? So that takes
a toll on you. You know what I mean? So you're
wanting to do all these good things and you have
the ability, you have the talents, you have the
training, all the rest of the stuff, you have
the tools in your tool belt. And now you're told
you can't use a third of them, a fourth of them,
whatever it is, because of X, Y, Z, because of
how it looks, whatever studies out there, all
the rest of that stuff. Right. So, you know,
I think that's where the turning point and and
on the on the crisis intervention side, you know,
we didn't get our CIT tabs probably. And that's
a 40 hour course that we all go through. But
that's actually to. evaluate the consumer, which
is those that you're in front of on domestic
calls, on mental health calls, whatever those
behavioral health calls are, right? So you're
actually evaluating your community, right? And
what I didn't see until about 2021 in our own
agency was we were not looking at ourselves.
We were not evaluating ourselves. We were not.
We were not going, all right, Jeff, you just
saw a massive, nasty fatality accident that involved
child, whatever it is. Right. So back then it
was all right. Put it in that little compartment,
suck it up and show back up the next day. Right.
So and that's that has started to change. you
know, at least for my agency in 2021. Now I know
others have done some a little bit before that.
But I think on the health side, we focus so much
on the community's mental health. And training
and getting them, you know, ED or emergency detained
and getting them in the facilities, you know,
based off whether they have insurance, they don't
have insurance. What's the best facility? Are
they going to be inpatient, outpatient, whatever
you call it, right? We were so focused on the
community, which don't get me wrong. That's what
we're supposed to do, right? That's our job.
That's in our job description. But what we failed
to do in the meantime, and for a long time, is
we failed to look at our own selves. We failed
to look at those that we're in charge of. We
failed to look at our left and right brother
and sister. We failed to look from top down and
even even lateral. You know, we failed to look
at, you know, how are we doing when we when we
show up that day? You know, is there is there
stuff going on in the workplace or in your on
your family side that's preventing you to be
100 percent within your department? You know,
what does your finances look like? You know,
are you so far in debt that you are working every
extra job in the world to where when you actually
show up for your real job, you're so damn tired,
you can't even be there, right? So we were killing
ourselves because our focus was on the community.
And I get that. I understand that. But I think
we're starting to come around a little bit on,
at least here in Oklahoma, on trying to mitigate
that and really put a focus on it. It's interesting
that you say the Ferguson effect because I sadly
personally experienced a horrendous incident
with my son in middle school. He was going through
some stuff. He was seeing a counselor. At that
time when he was with his mother, there was kind
of a tumultuous relationship in that household.
Many times I'd pick him up because he'd be in
tears. He was going through some shit. He's a
little boy. The school is aware of it. He's got
counseling going on. And then I'm driving home
one day, very long story short. He normally calls
me when he's, you know, lets me know he's getting
on the bus and lets me know he's got home safely.
I didn't get a call. So I call and he answers
the phone. He goes, oh, the principal wants to
speak to you. I'm like, okay, what's going on?
Oh, you know, he's had an incident. We're not
sure what we're going to do yet. We'll let you
know. So I'm like, okay. So I keep going towards
the school. And don't hear anything. And I call
and they're like, oh, yeah, he's been Baker Act.
He's been sent to the local holding facility.
Yeah. So I'm, you know, firstly, so zero communication
with the family. The only way I knew is because
I was chasing up where the fuck is my son. So
it turns out that he was upset. And the principal
and the SRO, end of the day, basically, they
just wanted to go home. And so they did a 5150
on him for being upset. It literally is what
it was. He was upset in the classroom, getting
some, you know, intrusive thoughts that the counselor
said are normal for children of that age. And
so anyway, they do an evaluation. Of course,
he's fine. But I mean, you can imagine that sends
me on a fucking tirade to find out what's going
on. Well, while he's there, literally in the
72 hours, I think five or six kids from the same
school cycle through. Now, I was a firefighter
for 14 years. I can count a number of Baker Acts
on one hand. And they were either bona fide suicide
attempts or people are going to hurt someone
else. And you've got the same that I have my
whole career in 72 hours of kids that are 8,
9, 10. So anyway, but then when I dive in deeper,
it's a statewide issue. And it was Parkland.
After Parkland, just like you said with Ferguson,
there's this massive knee jerk. And the schools
are like, well, just send everyone. But what
was really sickening in that event is I went
to the school, I pulled all the records from
PD, and there were hundreds of baker acts for
these children in the county. And the school
blamed the cops and the cops blamed the school.
Not a single person had a fucking backbone to
say, we were wrong, this needs to be changed.
But there was kind of the wheels turning already
statewide and they changed the policy. And now
if those two had done what they did, they'd be
in prison. Because that's basically kidnapping
a child. And they had great protocols in place.
If you're even in doubt, the people from that
facility come, they evaluate the child, they
deescalate. And then, you know, in this case,
my son would go home with me. That's it, done.
So, you know, so it's funny because you say that.
We have such a kind of pendulum swing at the
moment. One thing happens, which was horrendous,
don't get me wrong, in both cases. And now everyone
else has to pay it all the way on the other extreme.
The thing I've said with your community, and
I've made this observation so many times, when
mistakes are made and they're the gray area ones,
not the officer was 100 % right and it's just
the media being out of place or the officer was
100 % wrong, but everything in between. When
did that police officer sleep last? Have they
been forced into a second shift? Like you said,
how much are they getting paid? Are they having
to work extra jobs because they can't even make
ends meet because the city or county doesn't
pay them properly? What's their level of training?
Is there a fitness standard? That is how you
increase the service to the community is you
create physical and mental health in the people
who are protecting them. And that then will pay
forward to a higher level of service and a higher
level of relationships with the community. Yeah,
James, you're absolutely right. You know, and
even even after Ferguson, I'm sorry, after the
George Floyd incident, you know, you saw just
another ramping up. of all that, you know what
I mean? So you have Ferguson coupled with, you
know, the George Floyd incident and all the destruction
that happened after that, you know. I'm a big
advocate, you know, and I'm 50 next month or
next week. And I'm a big advocate that if you
are not physically, spiritually, and mentally
tuned up, then you are not going to show up 100%.
You know, and when we don't have the standards
that are there within our agencies to ensure
that we have that, then we are going to get 20,
30, 40 percent of our ability. And I always fought
I always fought our agency on why we don't have
a a physical fitness yearly standard. Now, we
did on the SWAT team. OK, but that's it. And
even that started getting a little inky, right?
And it was because a lot of the guys that were
kind of in the upper echelon couldn't perform
it. And so they started to tailor it down to
meet their needs. You know what I mean? So, you
know, and that's where I think, and I had this
long conversation with a couple of guys and I
said, why don't we? why don't we have an athlete
program for first responders? You know, you have
all these, these NFL guys and these MLB guys
and all the rest of this stuff. And I understand
money. I got it. Eight agencies got, you know,
different budgets and all the rest of this stuff.
But why don't we have some sort of athlete program
that, you know, you have these big supplement,
you know, and all the rest of this stuff that
could literally back this stuff, you know, powered
by whatever it is, right? You have Rogue and
you have all these other big weightlifting, all
of it. Why are we not instilling an athlete mindset
in our first responders, right? Because they
have to perform from zero to 100 within a second
sometimes, right? And so like for us, you know,
we talked about, All right, you're in your car,
especially as a training officer. All right,
you're in a car and you get in a pursuit or you
have something happen and it's right in front
of you. You've got to jump out of your car and
you've got to haul ass. Are you going to be able
to take that 40 pounds that you have on you,
be able to jump fences, all the rest of that
stuff? And then once you get that person in custody,
are you going to be so tired that you can't put
that person into custody correctly? Because your
mind is going to go because it's tired. It's
going to shut down, right? But if you're not
training that, if you're not training that aspect
from the academy all the way on and keeping that
standard, then all you're doing is you're opening
yourself up for litigation. And litigation is
not really the important part, but it's your
own safety. And it's the safety of your brothers
and sisters to your left and right, right? So,
you know, I was a... And I still am very, very
active in my gym, all functional fitness type
stuff. You know, I stay in it. And I've been
out of the game for a year and a couple months.
You know what I mean? But age has no – it doesn't
matter. But I think what happens is agencies
are just scared to do it because maybe the quality
of the people that they have within their agency
isn't going to be able to meet that standard.
You know what I mean? And so, you know, they
got to perform a service. But at the same time,
they're not given 100 % in that service. The
thing that's crazy in the fire service, and I've
said this, I mean, hundreds of times now, but
the name of the certification that you get to
be a firefighter in Florida, the name is minimum
standards. and they i love that they named it
that that is the shittiest you should be your
entire career and i'm just like you i'm just
turned 51 i'm still in the gym i'm still able
to do what you know we're supposed to do in fact
the combat challenge is one of our entry tests
i did it just i think it was three years ago
now and you know great great time still at my
age so i agree with you that don't you don't
need a taper because if you're doing yeah if
you're doing like you know max deadlift and jump
tests and you know 100 meter sprints then maybe,
but we're not doing that. Like in the fire, you
can literally put a sequence of events like we
do in the combat challenge, the fire sled, there's
got one now. And so you're moving a hose, a ladder,
a person, you're climbing with the things that
you would actually be wearing or holding. So
you can't say it's not fair. You were held to
that standard at day one. But just like you alluded
to, what I have seen, not all places, but a lot.
is the the union leadership in a lot of places
they're scared of failing it so they're like
well let's just oppose it they're trying to take
our jobs instead of saying well i i should own
it because i knew what to expect because it was
given to me on day one this is what you need
to be able to do to be a firefighter and then
to oppose that within the profession in law enforcement
and fire and i would argue even ems because medics
have to move people around too That is a complete
spit in the face to the profession itself and
the people that we serve. Yeah, absolutely. I
mean, I never thought, you know, I always had
this idea when I was a kid that, you know, cops
are here, firefighters are here, all the rest
of that stuff. And as I went through my career,
you know, and I get it, you know, small towns,
all the rest of that stuff. But as I went through
my career, I started seeing, you know, The. The
bodies, the type of the type of individuals that
were in those those those positions. And I go,
how in the world are they able to do X, Y, Z?
And to do it well. Right. So I just I've never
understood it. It's been a personal thing for
me that I would never be in a situation where
I couldn't handle myself. And it's just because
I had the love for my brothers and sisters on
my left and right. You know what I mean? And
even even as as moving on up, I just I never
wanted to succumb to, hey, I'm up here. I don't
have to do it. You guys need to do it. Right.
So I that's that was never a thing for me. I
never liked that. And so I just the mentality
has to change. And it's and it's been said to
do this change for so long. And it's and it just
it never happens. And I think a lot of it has
to do with that leadership that doesn't want
it. They don't want to take accountability on
themselves. Right. So those those deputy chiefs,
those majors, those captains, unfortunately,
have put themselves in dire straits to where
they can't perform it. They don't do it. And
so they don't make it a policy. They don't implement
it within a union. You know, I can, I can think
of union presidents right now that probably couldn't
run a hundred yards right now, you know, and
it's just, it's just, they don't want to do that.
You know, they it's because then it would hold
themselves accountable. Absolutely. Have you
crossed paths with Danny Long? that has the Oklahoma
State. I mean, that in itself, you got to, you
know, someone who just takes it upon himself
to say, all right, we're going to be part of
the solution. And I think that's amazing. You're
getting these people that are pushing back now
and saying no. And I think when we turn this
recruitment crisis around and really attract,
you know, the amount of young people that we're
used to in our professions. you can now put that
bar up and then say from day one, all right,
now we are going to require a fitness standard
and we're going to slowly pull everyone else
in who's already on the field. But a lot of people
that I've had on the show kind of push back on
that, oh, kids today, they're lazy, they don't
want to work. They're like, that's bullshit.
Like the fit candidates that we get. are really
fit these days because they've got like you said
functional fitness and mud runs and you know
all these these different things that we just
didn't have when we were you know young recruits
so i think it's a beautiful exciting time but
we have to drag these people that are opposing
out the shadows and say look you know you got
two choices get your ass back into shape or step
aside that's it but don't to condemn police officers
and firefighters and paramedics to poor performance
and a much shorter lifespan because you don't
have the balls to actually... Because think about
it. What is it really? It's a fear of getting
tired. Someone said that to me on the show once.
That's it. If you don't want to exercise, you're
scared of being tired. Well, if you're scared
of being tired, why the hell are you wearing
a first responders uniform where lies depend
on you? Yeah. Yeah. And a couple of multiple
points that you're talking about there, James.
So I was having a great conversation with with
a group of individuals. And I said, I remember
when I first was was hired on in 2001 here in
Edmond, they asked me what sport I played. And
I was kind of curious of why they asked that.
Well, then as we're going through and we're,
you know, going into, you know, 2009, 10, 11
timeframe, and even into Ferguson, I started
seeing our recruits come in different. And I
think what's happened is because of the social
stuff that's going on right now, you know, they,
they've got to, they've got to be just super
clean. You know, they've got to, you know, they,
they can't do anything wrong. And just because
they're so worried about. you know, X, Y, Z happening
or whatever it is. They failed to go after the
people that understand team concepts. And that
would be athletes. Athletes know how to work
as a team. They understand accountability and
they're going to keep themselves physically fit.
Right. So, and, and I, I just, I, we, I have
seen that. I saw that happen probably the last
10 or 12 years where we've gotten away from.
You know, actually actively going and going to
high schools and recruiting wrestlers, you know,
recruiting football players, all the wrestlers,
those people that understand, you know, whether
they're golfers or whatever, it doesn't matter,
you know, whether they're in their physically
fit, they understand team concept and they hold
each other accountable. Right. And so we've gotten
away from that because they need the college
degree or they have to have such a clean background.
uh, that they can't, they have to come in because
God forbid, you know, that they did XYZ back
when they were, you know, 18, 19 years old. Right.
So, and in my sense, I'll be honest with you,
James, I was not a clean guy when I came through
as a, as a, as a juvenile. I mean, I stole a
car. I did all kinds of crazy, stupid shit. And
I told him that in my polygraph and they were
like, wow. Okay. And I said, yeah. But you know
what? It made me a better cop because I could
see all through the bullshit that you would come
across on the street. Right. So it was just one
of those things where we have gotten just so
away from that. And we just so hyper focused
that we've got to recheck ourselves and go, hey,
listen, we need to go after people who have real
life experience, who have been athletes, understand
the concept of being an athlete and then get
out there and, you know. do the good things that
we're supposed to do. And there was another part
that you were talking about there and I just
lost it. But I just, I feel like that on the
recruiting side of the house, that means that
focus needs to kind of go back to that, that
world. I've seen a little bit of it happening
right now. We're, you know, we're at least my
agency, they just posted a deal where several
of our guys are prior D1, D2 wrestlers. And they're
out there at, you know, University of Central
Oklahoma, University of Oklahoma, Oklahoma State,
you know, all those guys recruiting those types
of individuals to come into our world. You know
what I mean? And if they have the heart for it
and the desire to do it. And, you know, those
are the types of people I believe that you want.
But here's the thing. Some people are scared
of that because they're scared of the egos. You
know, they're scared of, you know, what these
guys are going to bring into the academies. And
I'm like, well, listen, man, this is an A -type
personality type of, you know, world that we're
in, that we have to live in. I would much rather
reign somebody back than how to try to kick somebody
in the ass 17 times just to figure out how to
shoot a freaking gun. You know what I mean? So
it's just, it's that type of concept that I think
we've got to get back to. Well, it's funny because
if you look at... I've always said this, the
real tough guys, the wrestlers, you know, the
other martial artists, the ones that are great
shooters, they're some of the nicest people you'll
ever meet. So actually your dangerous egos are
the people that aren't sure of themselves. And
we all know that, the little Napoleons that are
running around there. But when you talked about
earlier, the MMPI, I've had this conversation
a lot. That was never meant to even be a standalone
test. And we use that for screening. Polygraph,
you know, I'll give you a funny story and people
listening, regularly i probably heard this before
so i apologize very first test i ever pre -test
that i ever did was a kind of collaborative one
they did here in south florida and you do this
one test and then they give your results to all
these agencies and miami beach were there one
of the lieutenants and they had these pre -apps
so we filled it in and i'm like you know naive
fresh off the boat Englishman. I'm like, well,
honesty is important. So let me say about years
ago when I did this drug where you dance a lot
and hug a lot of strangers. But that was a long
time ago. He screwed it up and threw it at me.
And I was like, oh, so you've got to lie about
your past to be a first responder. Got it. Lied
my way through three polygraphs. And again, ironically,
the things that I did back then are now the things
that we're seeing are helping first responders
and veterans heal from their PTSD. Same exact
comment. But it's kind of made me realize there's
this facade of we want choir boys, but anyone
with any sort of desire to learn about the kind
of person that puts his uniform understands that
a lot of us are here because of the shit that
we went through when we were young. And if we
work through, that becomes an absolute asset.
So to say I want a guy who's never done anything
bad or a girl. is ridiculous. Now, some of them
will have, they would have been straight edge
and, you know, their path really didn't have
much trauma, but a lot of us have been through
some shit. And that's an absolute asset because
that makes you, you know, I would argue a lot
more resilient, you know, as far as the mental
toughness side, but also compassionate and empathetic.
If your mother was an addict, if your dad was,
you know, you lost your uncle to gangs or whatever
the thing was, you understand a lot of these
streets that we work in. If you've been sheltered
your whole life, never done anything, and then
you're thrust into the red light district in
your city, your head's going to fucking explode.
So I think we've got to shift that. There are,
of course, some crimes that are unacceptable
that you can't put a uniform on. But there's
so many where it really doesn't, as long as it
wasn't recent, of course, that it shouldn't be
a disqualifying factor if someone's been on a
healing journey and rehabilitated from whatever
that thing was. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad you
said that because that's exactly what needs to
happen. I just I look at our recruiting and just
in our last. I was a field training officer until
about, I think, 20, 2022 or whatever. And I just
got I got frustrated with it. And. just because
of the of the individuals that were coming through
you know the the the times that our agency would
you know they would do you know this person has
to get an extension in a training process six
times you know and it's like man if this dude
or gal has not got it you know and it's something
that's real simple by the you know second or
third time then it's probably an issue right
and so i i have I don't know. I, I think, like
I said, I think as long as they, they, they're
going, I think they're going back down the other
path. Cause I think they've realized at least
here in Oklahoma city area, I think they've realized
that they can't be so quote unquote judgy. And
I'm not saying that I know they have to do their
due diligence, but at the same time, they have
got to get people who've done real shit. you
know, in their lives have been, have got real
life experience. And like you said, take that
experience to the streets to where, when, you
know, if you're going into a fire, you never
know like what your experience was on the fire
side as a kid, as an adolescent or whatever it
is. And now you see a similar situation with
a family or whatever it is. And now you can be
kind of that, that linkage and that assistance
to them. you know, after all is said and done,
you know what I mean? So I just, there is value
in some of our mistakes. And I think that, you
know, Denzel Washington said it so greatly. He
said, ease is the greatest threat to prosperity
than hardship. You know, and that's, and I think
because we want things so easy. that we don't
get the value of the toughness right so and and
I every time when I when I talk to a lot of different
a lot of different individuals because now I'm
I'm doing this thing called next phase leadership
where I talk about like going into your next
phase of life and the lessons that you need to
take and and all the rest of that stuff and and
and I have my own kind of speaking world on that
but I love I love the fact that we can that we
can learn about it and and invest in it because
when we do that we can pass it on to somebody
else right it's all about we're very service
-oriented people right james and so that's the
reason why we do what we do and when we have
that togetherness and we can do that and we can
share it with others i didn't i'm not able to
do what i do because i was such a clean person
Right. I've gone through all my trials and tribulations
and bullshit and all the rest of that stuff.
And I've I've walked a path that's been pretty
tough. And now I want to be able to gift it to
somebody else saying, hey, listen, these are
the lessons I learned. And these are these are
what I want to impart on you so you don't have
to. And as you move forward into your into your
your next phase of life, these are the things
that are going to set you up for success. Right.
So. I just feel like, you know, when somebody
comes in, I'm regurgitating, but if you're just
completely clean, got no background, blah, blah,
blah, you bring no value. Yep. Yep. I agree.
Well, that's a good segue because I'll make sure
that we talk about transition. We've run out
of time talking about tornadoes and fitness standards.
All the good stuff, right? Sorry, I'm burning
up in my room. It is. It is. All right. Well,
then, you know. It's become very apparent through
actually seeing, but also all these conversations
that the transition from the first responder
professions, the military, can be very jarring
to some men and women. I mean, you have this
beautiful sense of purpose. You have this tribe.
You have this identity of being someone who is
making a difference in the community. And then
one day, and I just ironically just did a video
about this because we just lost a retiree to
suicide. in Miami -Dade. I think they transitioned
that about two years ago. You know, that door
closes behind them and they cease to be anything
anymore. You know, the seat that they occupied
is filled with a warm body. You know, they don't
factor on any sort of statistics. There's no
VA for first responders. And then, you know,
now a lot of them believe, oh, I guess I'll go
be a security guard if you're a cop or I'll go
teach at a fire academy if you're a firefighter
because they haven't really realized the amazing
gamut of skills that they actually have. And
where I see people transition successfully is
when they've understood, oh, I'm a servant. I
was just wearing this uniform, but my mission
is to make the world better and I can do it in
a different way. Where, you know, people seem
to really hit a brick wall as they go end up,
you know, selling houses or finance or something
where they don't feel like they're adding value.
And then, you know, it just kind of compounds
from there. So it's a, you know, kind of monologue
preamble. But so talk to me about what made you
even aware of the need for some sort of structure
as our first responders navigate out. And then
let's get to Encore Project. Yeah, so my process
started back in about 2018, where I had a buddy
of mine ask me literally, what are you going
to do after you get done? And I stood there on
a golf course and I go, I have no freaking clue.
No idea. And that scared the actual living crap
out of me. Because, you know, doing 25 years,
which I expected to do, would put me at 48 years
old. And at 48 years old, you still have quite
a bit of life to live after that. And if you
don't have any type of purpose or understanding
of what you're going to do or how you're going
to make ends meet. Yeah, you have a retirement,
but it's, you know, I did. Idealistically, you
don't you only get about 50 percent of what you're
getting, at least here in Oklahoma. Um, you get
a, uh, kind of a lump sum that you want to tuck
away to where you can talk, you know, you can,
you can play with, you know, later on in life,
but you've got to be able to do something. And,
and, and yeah, financially you'd be decent, but
you need to do something like you just said,
you know, we're very service oriented people.
And I just, I started looking around and. I'm
in the National Guard and in 2020 commanded about
120 troops over the Iraq, Syria, Kuwait area.
And when we were coming back, I noticed that
the, and I knew about it, but I actually got
to experience it. The military has got to, and
it's whether the quality is great or not, they've
got a transition assistance program, right? The
Soldier for Life Transition Assistance Program.
And they would, you know, kind of deep dive into,
you know, how you are, what, you know, what are
you going to do when you get home? Do you have
a job? You know, what's your resume look like?
All the rest of that stuff. Right. And so they
try to help the service members, you know, look
at, you know, moving into the private sector.
And I kind of, you know, obviously going back
to my 2018 thought, experiencing that in 2020
and coming out of that. I knew what my timeline
was. My timeline was about 2024. And then in
2021, I was in an officer -involved shooting.
And that really kind of propelled this process
of trying to figure out what I'm going to do
when I grow up. And so it really was a methodical
thinking. It took a little bit of time to come
about. But then I started also seeing. that we
do have those that are leaving and dying just
all of a sudden, you know, perfectly healthy
individuals dying of various different issues,
you know, mostly cardiac cancer, suicide type
issues. Right. So about January of 23, after
I was cleared and everything from, from the officer
of all shooting, I really took that on to start
doing some research. And like you said before,
there's no VA system. for the first responding
community. And when I say FRs, that's what I
mean, the first responding community, you know,
that's police, fire, EMS, dispatch, corrections,
you know, those types of individuals. And I started
looking just through Google and other places
where they have like white pages, they have various
different studies all the way back to the 80s
on difficulties that first responders have when
they move into the next phase of life. And that
means moving in the private sector, whether that's
James, whether that's after three years of service,
seven years, 15 years, 30 years, right? So it
varies. And what I've found, and in every state
that I could talk to, nobody had a process. When
we come into our service, we onboard so methodically,
intentionally, intensively, you know, and it's
done by structure, right? And you're told if
you're good enough to come into this family,
right? And then after that, it's total focus
on your professional development. Very little
on your personal development. And so when you
move through this profession, and then all of
a sudden you're like, hey, I'm looking at leaving.
And the six months before I left, I was called
a rod and retired on duty. You know, it was it
was, you know, a name that they gave you and
you're just like, OK, well, the reason why I
told you guys I was leaving is because so you
guys could plan to bring somebody on to replace
me. I knew that that was the case. Right. And
now I'm getting. Bastardized because of that.
Right. Because I'm leaving, blah, blah, blah,
whatever it is, right? And so as I'm sitting
there, James, and I tell my HR I'm going to go,
and they say, yeah, we just need a letter of
resignation. Cool. Is there anything else involved
in this? Nothing. Pin drop. And so it pissed
me off. Made me mad. To the point, James, where
when I had my retirement ceremony on February
1st of 2024, they gifted me my sidearm, which
I'm very grateful for. But they gave me the wrong
box for it. So that shows you how intentional,
methodical, how they rid you, right? that really
hit me hard that I did 26 years of service, all
the things that keep the agency, the community,
you know, my, my family, everything, you know,
my, my brothers left and right, all the things.
And to be off -boarded in that way was asinine
because now I got to figure out what the fuck
I'm going to do. And that's okay. I can do that.
I'm a big boy. I got big boy pants. But at the
same time, I don't know what it looks like on
that other side of the gate. Like they tell you
at the beginning what it looks like to come into
that gate. They tell you all the things you're
about to get into. They tell you like what you
need to do, all that stuff. But when you leave,
there is no vision. There is no structure. There's
no mentoring. There's no coaching. There's nothing.
And you're left out there. to do your own thing
at your own time. And you just figure it out
yourself. That's cool. Got it. That's why we're
having all the problems that we're having right
now. Right. And so now there is some conflict
that I'm seeing between the active side and the,
I hate saying the R side. I say the next phase
of life because, you know, that is the next phase,
right? When you start putting the R, I want to
put a big old circle around it because I'm not
done. Retired doesn't mean that you're done,
right? So there's this conflict that's going
on between the uniform side and those that are
on that other side. And we're expecting the uniforms
to understand what these people are doing over
here. and developing policies, procedures, any
type of off -boarding process, whatever have
you, to get to an understanding of what's going
on on the other side, right? Which doesn't make
sense. So what you need is you need entities
like us to come in and say, hey, listen, this
is the shit that you're about to see. This is
the pathway that is about to happen to you. Are
you prepared? Have you looked at your finances?
Do you understand your pension system? Do you
know the differences between the fire side, the
police side, you know, your 401ks, your 403s,
deferred comps, all the rest of this stuff. Have
you set yourself up financially? We get that
question answered. Then we move on to the holistic
health side of health. You know what you're going
to go through when you leave? You're going to
have an identity issue. you're going to go, I'm
not the guy they call anymore. You're going to
go, I'm not the guy, at least for me, I had a
police car always out in my driveway. And now
I have no car in my driveway. Right? So I have
all my, I literally in this office, I have all
my uniforms right there. Right? I can never don
them on anymore. Right. You know what I mean?
And so it's you know, how do you how do you master
your mindset to change that? Right. And so we
we go into a lot of that in some of our in our
course. And we talk about the the pathway from
aspiring to being accomplished. I mean, there's
a lot of things that we talk about in that in
that avenue. But then we also talk about the
physical fitness side of the house. Just because
you're done doesn't mean that you're done physically.
You've got to keep moving. Right. And so we bring
in entities that focus on that. We talk about,
you know, the difference between shift work and
behind the desk and all the rest of that stuff
to now you're on that other side of the gate.
How do you keep yourself physically healthy?
Right. And we have it backed by different proprietorships
and we align with different individuals. And
then we also talk about the mental health side
of the house, you know, the Maslow's hierarchy
of needs, you know, the belonging side of the
house, you know, the self -esteem, you know,
all that that's in there. Right. And unfortunately,
what happens is that when we leave, if we don't
prepare ourselves, if we don't have an understanding
what it's going to be like on that other side
of the gate, then we go to drinking and we go
to gambling. We go to infidelity. We go to all
the patching mechanisms that are out there, right?
We might go fish and golf for about three months.
You know, we might do all those great things
that we talk about. But at the end of the day,
we have to have a purpose. And that's whether
serving in your local church, you know, going,
you know, a volunteering at a food bank, whatever
that is, or, you know, finding out what other
job may be out there for you. that can take your
skill set and attributes in and level up that
business. So we do a lot of resume building.
We own that process. We tell you, we'll bring
your resume in from your agency and we'll be
able to tell you, hey, you could be a sales guy
if you're a people -oriented person or a task
-oriented person. We'll be able to tell you what...
What area you can go into that would be best
fit for you, whatever you want to serve in. Right.
And then we also bring in a group called the
SHRM. It's the Society of Human Resource Management.
And they they will literally do mock job interviews.
A lot of us are very used to doing job interviews
in front of a board. And so and I'm talking more
about our program, but, you know, we actually
do some some mock interviews one on ones. And
these are HR individuals from various different
HR entities, businesses that are here in the
Oklahoma City metro area. And they'll do a two
30 minute ones where they will evaluate and give
feedback. And so that first responder, when they
come in, whether you're a battalion chief or
you're a lower level, you know, lower level patrol
officer or, you know, a paramedic or whatever
it is, you're feeling comfortable. having that
one -on -one interaction with that hr individual
right so you know it's a lot of it has to do
with language a lot of it has to do with presentation
how many james let me tell you it's been surprising
how many do you think are actually on linkedin
first responders in general you mean yes um The
way you phrase that, I'm going to assume it's
low. So if you hadn't phrased it that way, I'd
be like, oh, it must be 80%. But I'm assuming
it's not. It's extremely low. And we all know
what LinkedIn is. It is a resume, right? And
so, you know, we bring that in front of them
and help them build their LinkedIn profiles,
you know, and really be able to put them in.
Some of them don't want to be on that type of
platform. And I understand that. you know, um,
and, but, you know, giving him those resources.
Uh, so they, when they do make that decision,
you know, and we, we really, in our beyond the
badge courses, we, we target 18 months and in
whatever, whatever your gate is 18 months out
to help you facilitate that, that transition.
So if you want to be, so they, I've got a Lieutenant
local highway patrol here. He wanted to be a
home inspector. So. plug him into a local training,
you know, technology center here, does his 90
day course and he's good to go. You know, so
when he leaves, he knows exactly what he's going
to do. Already have the company aligned with
them, all the rest of this stuff. Right. So,
you know, I've got a firefighter that's a part
of our, our mentor circle. And he was, he was
in the Murrah bombing, was forced retired in
2018. Is now a sales rep, a pretty senior sales
rep for Bitcoin dot com. You know, so you can
take a lot of your skill sets and you can apply
it to various different areas. You just need
a structured way. And that's what that's that's
where we fail. We fail as as agencies. We fail
as states. We fail as unions to supply that structure
for when we leave our service. why is it when
I would say even more so the fire service, because,
you know, we're firefighters and we're EMS and
a lot of agencies too. So, I mean, a real Swiss
army knife, and you throw in rope rescue and
confined space and all these other specialties
on top of that. Why is it that when we walk out
the back door, whether you're a cop, you're a
firefighter, we think, well, I've got to do something
with a halogen or a gun. Like, where does that
myopic? Because, I mean, you think about it,
teamwork, problem solving, working under pressure,
all these skill sets that we have. But, you know,
we're all we have that same. What is it about
our journey through the profession that creates
such a kind of blinkered view of our own skill
set? Because that's always how it's been done.
Nobody is taking this on, James. Nobody in this
country has taken this on. I can think of one
other person. He's out of, he's out of Virginia,
but I can only think of one other entity that's
even touching this. And it's because it's all
that we're, we're kind of the forgotten group,
right? So we do our service. Thank you for your
service. See you later. Have a good one. You're
off on your own. Right. And, but we haven't,
you know, we die five to seven years on average
across the United States, five to seven years
after our service. Our mortality rate is 24 %
higher than any other occupation in the United
States. We die at 66 as opposed to 82, 85. And
I've always said, just to jump in with that,
that's startling in itself. But if you think
about, compare it to the community, you're talking
about people that arguably are fitter and more
mentally resilient than the average person, which
makes those stats even worse. Because I would
say a lot of us should be living a lot longer
than that. Absolutely. And a lot of it has to
do with that ideology, that depression and anxiety,
that fear, all the rest of stuff, those building
blocks that then become part of our health issue,
because our health issues, the top three that
I mentioned earlier are cardiac oriented, cancer
oriented and suicide. Those are the top three.
And when we don't when we don't off board. When
we don't prep our people, what I call prep the
battlefield, that's what we say in the military,
prep the battlefield, which we are going to go
into. When we leave this gate, it is a completely
different battlefield we're going into. If we
don't have that mindset and we're not prepared
for it, then we are going to freaking fail. And
it's asinine. And I've talked to a lot of different
companies. in organizations and stuff like that.
And they go, we thought that would be part of
your program. Nice. And it's, and it's absolutely,
I spoke at a, spoke at a large fundraising breakfast
in February, a lot of high -end type CEOs from
various different banks and all the rest of this
stuff. Some of them have, you know, relatives
that are first responders. And for them to come
up to me, absolutely petrified. They've got sons
and daughters that are going, they're about to
step into this world and you're giving us that
stat and nothing's being done. It, it just, it
scares the shit out of them. Right. And so it's
that, that pain that's there that they're feeling
and they're going, all right, we're backing you,
Jeff. We're coming. This is the thing that I
talk about is so many of the problems you sound
like, oh, you're always talking about things
that are broken because they're so easily fixed.
It's an educational piece in the front door saying
this is what you're bringing in. So let's talk
about the mental health side. Let's not do an
MMPI and check a box like, oh, yeah, we check
to see if they're a crazy person. Let's say,
hey, you're going to have some stuff in your
bucket, your backpack, whatever metaphor you
want to use. Let's start working through it.
So that becomes a strength. And it's the same
on the back. Let's start talking about that sense
of, you know, loss of tribe and all these other
things. Let's, you know, work on your fitness.
Yes, you're in the last year of your, that doesn't
mean that you're just going to sit in a lazy
boy. You actually want to work and be fitter,
you know, because you're also going to be screened
for whatever health insurance you're going to
get. And you want to make sure that your premiums
are lower. So, I mean, there's so many. things
of you know what you're doing there's so many
solutions the work weeks the fitness standards
all these different things that we can absolutely
affect that will save numerous numerous lives
and you know increase the quality of you know
a hundred times that but if we just stick our
head in the sand and ignoring it and say oh you're
being negative if you bring it up it's like well
you're just basically perfectly fine with losing
more men more men and women when they walk out
the back door Yeah, and it drives me insane that
we're just allowing this to happen. You know,
one of the things that we've really started doing,
James, is we've started going to the academies.
And we're talking at the academies now where
we're talking about, hey, listen, this is the
shit that you're about to see. And if you are
not ready for it, if you're not ready for it
during and you're not ready to tackle it after.
then you are going to set yourself up for failure.
So we really dive into that. And some of the
feedback that we've got, especially from the
younger officers in our academies, I just taught
at the Oklahoma State Fire Association, their
big museum there. And all of them came up and
they were just like, God, we wish we'd had this
shit when we were younger. You know, we wish
we would have had this when we were coming to
the academy. We wish we'd had this like every
two years in our in -service. You know, have
this on a repeating cycle. Right. Because you
say it once you retain maybe 10 percent of it.
Right. So, you know, have it on repeat. If it's
important, make sure it's part of your agency's
culture. Right. And so the unions, the agencies,
the counties, the states, all the rest is if
this is. if this is an important side, because
listen, when we leave, you know, they all look
at money. When we leave, we are an economical
benefit to you. So allow us to survive a little
bit longer. You know what I mean? Like, let's
do something. You know, we can do things for
your businesses. We are role models in your communities.
We can be those guys that are on your councils
or whatever it is, but we can also do a lot of
good things for your community that bring in
revenue, et cetera, et cetera, right? So, you
know, we're just not lost causes and just thrown
out to the dust. You know, actually not lost
causes, but just like you're on your own now.
You got to figure it out on your own. You know,
and I think that has been the mentality. And
that's why. everybody goes to, I'm just going
to guess I'm just going to be security or I'm
going to do this. You know what I mean? There's
no real, I mean, James, you ask people and I'm
sure you, you got buddies years too. What are
you going to do when you're done? 90 % of them
will say, I have no idea, no clue, you know,
and that's, that's something that is a culture
we have to change because if, if it were set
up and this is, I'm kind of, Getting ahead of
myself here, but we're trying to set it up to
where this is going to be something that's part
of the agency culture, the union culture, not
just here in Oklahoma City, but we want it nationwide.
We want it from California to Washington to Florida
to New York. And it's to set ourselves up during.
Because we talk, it's called the thriving responder
that we do during their in -service side. But
then we also call it the beyond the badge. You
know, looking, it's a four -day deep dive into
literally figuring out what the hell you're going
to do afterwards. And at least giving you opportunities.
Letting us show you what that path looks like.
It might not be completely clear 100%, but at
least you have the resources to reach back out
to. right now these there are no resources there's
nothing one thing i've talked about because i'm
trying to really push for the firefighter work
week to be standardized at 42 hours a week and
the northeast has had it for a long time the
rest of the country works you know basically
the side of 56 hours And then we have this mandatory
overtime, this recruitment crisis, there's all
these vacancies. So now they're working like
80 -hour weeks every other week or even more
frequently. And the pushback of getting more
rest and recovery between shifts, which aligns
with PD, doctors, nurses, everyone else who saves
lives, is, oh, if we give them more time off,
they'll just work more. And I've always said,
well, firstly, that's a really fucking arrogant
thing to say about a human being when they're
not at work. But secondly, when you actually,
because in the fire service, we do have a period
of time that is open where you can do something
else as well. Now, should you work in an ER overnight
or a private ambulance company? Of course not.
But now you're a personal trainer or you're a
landscaper or you're, you know, whatever it is,
you've got this side hustle. That's a good thing
because we're kind of bridging what you're talking
about. You've created another tribe, another
identity, another purpose. And so now whatever
it is that you're doing, God forbid, you lose
your job, you get fired, you get hurt. Now you
have that thing to go to or you simply retire.
What are you going to do, Jeff, when you retire?
Well, I've already got my business that I built
up. So I know what I'm going to do. That's what
I'm going to do. So in my profession. That ends
up not only being a second source of income,
a safety net, whatever it needs to be. And this
is the kind of thing I'm saying, yeah, do something
that's going to put you at home in the evening
with your family and then in bed next to your
partner. Don't do stuff that's going to keep
you overnight. But this is an absolutely beautiful
thing. Write a book, start a podcast, whatever
it is that you want to do. And then you start
realizing through your career. oh God, I'm so
much more than just a cop and just a firefighter.
And I'm so damn proud to be those things, but
it's not all of me. It's some of me. And again,
don't get me wrong. I'm not also saying, yeah,
if you're a real estate agent and you just go
to the fire station for 24 hours and you keep
working on your business, also no, no. When you're
at a station, you're a firefighter and you should
be all in on training and your fitness and everything
else and running calls. But having that second
identity outside, I think that is also another
great movement, especially in the fire service.
You don't have to, but most of us have something
that we love to do. You play in bars, you know,
and you're a guitarist and a singer, whatever
it is doing that other thing. I think there's
so much benefit. They see it as, Oh, they can't
work off duty. Like bullshit. Why not? He's a
swim coach. Whatever it is, go do that thing.
Just be cognizant of making sure you get rest
and recovery on those days off. You hang drywall,
amazing. Just go home at five. Right. Yeah. Have
some boundaries, right? As you were talking,
we always talk about the three big reasons that
we talk about having that purpose afterwards.
is to elongate your life, give stability your
home and repurpose you in the community you just
served. And that just, that resonates across
the board, right? And it's so easy to fall into,
oh me, oh, you know, that kind of thing and not
do anything because that's been kind of the culture.
It's almost a standard right now. It's just like,
Jeff, figure it out on your own, buddy. Again,
don't get me wrong, we're all big boys here,
big girls, but at the same time, that's why those
that are in uniform can't figure out what to
do with these guys on the other side because
they're not there yet. They can't say anything.
It's the ones that are over here on this other
side that are... saying, Hey, you need to do
this. And there's gotta be some reach back saying,
Hey, prep yourself, you know, and, and, and coming
in. So, you know, there's, there's a, I really
do congratulate guys. I was actually having had
lunch with one of our SWAT operators. He was,
I was on the team with him for a while and he's
17 years in and he just took up ice hockey. He
said, never, never a skate in his life. And he
started taking up ice hockey. And I said, and
he goes, it was so nice to go do something that
was not work related. It helped me in my head.
It helped me in my spirit. It helped me in my
being. It helped me be able to talk to my wife,
you know, and being grounded with my kids and
all the rest of that stuff. He goes, because
so many of us just hone in on that professional
side. that we go do the job and then we go do
the side job. And then the only friends that
we have around us are the people that we work
with and blah, blah, blah. You know what I mean?
We're just so integrated, but we don't go and
do anything outside, right? It's almost like
there's a fear to do that. It's like, well, they
don't know who we are. They don't know what we
do, blah, blah, blah, right? So I can't talk
to them, right? And don't get me wrong, for a
long time, I had a little bit of that. that ideal
too but at the same time i started realizing
that i had to have people outside of my workplace
to communicate with i had to have you know different
arenas for me to be involved in you know what
i mean and so it was uh it's it's refreshing
to hear those stories i wish there were more
of them and you know i know i know the fire guys
You know, they do take on a lot of different
type of skill sets just because of the way. Like
here, I know Oklahoma City, I think they do 24
on and 72. I can't remember. No, I'm sorry, 48
on, 96 off on the fire side. Edmond does 24 on,
24 off, 24 on, 24 off, and then four days off.
So it's kind of interesting how. the dynamic
is, um, in that rest work cycle, you know, um,
you know, for us, we were working 10 hour shifts,
you know, four days a week type deal. Um, but
there was a lot of, a lot of overtime, a lot
of overtime. You were, you're, it wasn't mandatory,
but you were extremely pressurized to, to stay
over or to come in or whatever it was, whatever
have you, you know what I mean? So. just because
of the shortages. I think another thing, James,
too, is, and I'm not trying to go off track here,
but I think a lot of it is our retention. Our
retention is just absolutely atrocious right
there. There is no programs to retain people.
And that's sad because that means that they are
not really invested in their people. They're
invested for the current. They're not invested
for the future. Right. And it might maybe the
future is a core value or, you know, some sort
of competency or something like that. But they
are not actually invested. So one of the things
that I proposed during and this kind of goes
back to the physical fitness side was when you're
getting evaluations. Like you can't go if you
can't pass a physical fitness test and you can't
go to certain schools to help you with promotions,
you're not allowed to go to X, Y, Z. Because
you can't pass physical, right? So that would
incentivize guys and gals to keep their shit
wound tight, right? And, you know, if they can't
promote or if they can't go to a certain licky
-chewy type school or training or something like
that, you know, maybe that'll keep them in the
gym. I hate to say that that's an incentive,
you know, other than just your moral and virtues
to keep you in the gym. But, you know, that's
just something that, you know, thinking outside
the box might be something like that to do. I
don't know. I play around with that sometimes.
Sorry, I kind of went all over the place there.
No, no. It actually reminds me of Roger Shai,
who's a chief in, I forget the name of the town
now. It's got a weird name, but it's in Idaho.
And they actually give extra points in promotional
tests when you max out physical tests. So I think
that's phenomenal. And then they have jujitsu.
They have very kind of advanced DTAC training.
And that then attracts young people. I mean,
I know that's from Anaheim. When I worked there,
they had an amazing reputation. And they would
lose a quarter of every probationary class by
the end of the year. And so this is how you actually
attract the right kind of person. The Royal Navy,
I'm sorry, the Royal Marines did this really
well when I was young. They said that the ad
campaign was 99 % of you need not apply. And
so the right kind of person was like, oh, really?
Hold my beer. And that's who you want stepping
up. So when you raise the bar and you have fitness
standards and you're known to have an academy
that's a crucible in a measured, deliberate way.
that is going to attract the right kind of people.
And that's going to keep the right kind of people.
But the problem is just like you said, especially
in the fire service, you've got these young people
looking at us, you know, doing a Google search
and like, wait a second, 56 hours a week. And
then you get told you can't go home and they
have divorce and cancer and suicides and, or
I could be a welder. You know what I mean? And
I can go X amount of hours and make this, you
know, two thirds of more of the money. And so
this is the thing that we have a retention problem
because we're not viewing our men and women as
assets. And then we're not developing, developing
them as human beings, physically, mentally, even
emotionally. And so, yeah, we, you know, that,
that term disposable heroes is right. Just use
until they break. And then now just get another
one, you know, his uniform off you go get on
that rig. So, yeah, I mean, yeah, literally you
are a number, you have a badge number and that,
that number is literally just transferred over.
Yeah, exactly. Well, going back to the solutions,
I don't want to be mindful of your time. For
people listening, where can they find OnCall
and any other things that you're doing at the
moment? Yeah, so our website is OnCallProject
.com. There's various different tabs that are
up there, but it really goes into a deep dive
of what we do and how we do it, where we do it.
There are on the events page, it'll tell you
kind of where our training is and stuff. But,
you know, primarily focused right now in the
Oklahoma area. But as we as we grow, we've been
asked to be part of different conferences to
to go attend and bring our resources to them.
You know, really, James, it's a it's an awareness
knowledge piece right now. You know, we're we're
applying our courses here within the state of
Oklahoma and hopefully here soon within the region
from Kansas to Arkansas. down to Texas area here
within the next year, year and a half. Our goal
is to get our service out to every agency within
the next five years. And we're doing that through
various different processes and funding sources.
You know, we're all on social media. So everything
from LinkedIn to Instagram, Facebook, everything.
So we're all on that. And honestly, the best
way. to contact us is to go to that website,
hit the contact us. It goes directly to me. So
I'll get that within 48 hours and get back a
response to you. But, you know, I was just up
in St. Louis at the Union Station up there, what's
called the International Law Enforcement Educators
and Trainers Association. We were one of the
only nonprofits up there. And I tell you, James,
the interest from Oregon to Florida to Rochester,
New York for this program was immense. I can't
tell you our vendor table was very, very heavily
occupied. This is something that is very unknown.
It hasn't been tackled before. This is inspiring.
I look at it as. Something that's much bigger
than me. I just have the vision of where it needs
to go and how it needs to get there. You know,
we have a board of directors. It's a nonprofit.
So, you know, we we're always looking for individuals
to help source us and fund us to get our program
to where it needs to go. But, you know, we're
all majority of us that are that are in this
group. We're all first responders. We've been
there, done that. Our mentor circle is full.
prior police, EMS, firemen that are very successful
in the private sector right now. Some of them
are retired. Some are not doing anything or they've
opened up their own LLC or something like that.
But they're still very big advocates within the
community and valued in that community. And that's
what we want to do. We want to make sure that
our people are taken care of from... From the
start all the way to the end of their life, they
have given a lot to us. They've given a lot to
our community and they deserve a structured,
methodical education and guided pathway to off
board into that private sector. Other than just
being said, thank you for your service. See you
on the other side. Absolutely. Well, I want to
say thank you so much. I mean, it's been such
an interesting conversation from tornadoes to
Berlin to the transition out and giving people
the tools. So I want to thank you so much for
being so generous with your time and coming on
the Behind the Shield podcast today. Well, James,
I look forward to your future success. Look forward
to maybe sometime if I'm in Florida, come see
you. Or if you're in Oklahoma, do the same, my
friend. We do have. A pretty interesting process
that's going on in downtown Oakland City. I'd
love to be able to share that with you probably
in about a year. But it's a build out that's
extremely impressive. And hopefully it's going
to be a model for the country. And I'd love for
you to be a part of it. And I do appreciate you
having me on today.