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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you

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think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome

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to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,

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my name is James Gearing and this week it is

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my absolute honor to welcome on the show law

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enforcement veteran, army soldier, and the man

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behind the Encore Project Foundation, Jeff Moorfield.

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Now in this conversation, we discuss a host of

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topics from his journey into the world of policing,

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tornadoes, dive teams, gangs, and most importantly,

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the transition from the first responder and military

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professions into the next chapter. Now, before

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we get to this incredible conversation, as I

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say every week, please just take a moment, go

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to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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well over 1 ,000 episodes now. So all I ask in

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return is that you help share these incredible

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men and women's stories so I can get them to

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every single person on planet Earth who needs

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to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce

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to you Jeff Moorfield. Enjoy. Well, Jeff, I want

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to start by saying two things. Firstly, I'm glad

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that your gardens are going to look amazing when

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the landscapers are done. And secondly, I want

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to welcome you to the Behind the Shield podcast

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today. I love being here, James, man. It's an

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absolute pleasure. I've been seeing what you're

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doing on various different sites, social media,

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and all the rest of the stuff. And it's just

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an absolute pleasure to be here to be able to

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talk to a firefighter, you know what I mean,

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as a police. You know, as a police officer myself,

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you know, sometimes we don't get those great

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conversations going. But I fear I see that this

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one's going to be a good one. Absolutely. And

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just to throw it back for people listening, they

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will start felling a tree outside my window at

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some point. So there's going to be just as much

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background noise there. So we'll see if we can

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kind of dampen it in the editing room a little

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bit. Hopefully mine will be done in about five

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minutes. Yeah, well, they just pulled up a wood

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chipper. So I'm assuming it's going to be pretty

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damn loud on my side, but we'll see. They have

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a job to do as well. All right. Well, very first

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question. Where on planet Earth are we finding

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you today? I am in the Edmond, Oklahoma location.

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It's the greater OKC. It's what a lot of people

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call the land of milk and honey, Sparkle City.

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It's a pretty up -to -do type of area, but it's

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Edmond, Oklahoma. It's just on the north side

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of Oklahoma City. Population of about 100 ,000

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people, 100 square miles. Been here since about

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1994. I'm going to ask a question purely because

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my son just asked it the other day because he,

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for some reason, got pulled into, I think it

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was the new Twister movie, and then he watched

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the documentary on the fatal one that they had

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a few years ago in, I think it was Missouri.

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And anyway, he said, have you had many people

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talking about hurricanes? And so seeing as you're

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in Oklahoma, not hurricanes, excuse me, tornadoes,

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what has been your experience as a resident there

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over the years as far as the impact of tornadoes

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in your area? Well, here's where my honesty is

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going to come out, brother. So in 1999, actually,

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let's go back to my childhood. So my father was

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in the military. He was an Air Force pilot for

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27 years. And we would PCS from Tinker Air Force

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Base to various different other bases around

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the country, but then also in the world. I actually

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graduated high school in Ramstein, Germany. But

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when I was a kid and during those three years,

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I think it was 1981 to 85 timeframe. There was

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a tornado that came through and we're in an area

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just east of Oklahoma City. And I remember literally

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laying in the hallway with mattresses over our

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head, you know, because it was thought that that

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tornado was going to come over our head. And

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obviously the Doppler systems back then weren't

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as accurate as they are now. But, you know, that

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was my first experience. And then kind of going

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into my adult life, I... came back here and went

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to the University of Central Oklahoma, played

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soccer here for a couple of years. And some of

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the things that I saw was not only just the Murrah

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bombing, but you had the tornadoes. And in 1999,

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I was a police officer for about two years. And

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on May 3rd of 1999, the biggest F5 tornado came

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through the south side of Oklahoma City. And

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as a police officer, 25 years old, that kind

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of thing, driving your police car down a I -40

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interstate in complete darkness made you rethink

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what tornadoes can do. And when we got off the

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off ramp, we actually missed the off ramp to

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go to the command post because it was so dark,

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you couldn't see it. And so we went down another

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mile down to Indian Hills and we turned back

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around. And I get off the off ramp and I see

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a car on my left side and it is completely skeletonized.

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I mean, the only thing that's left of it is the

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frame. We pull up into a church and this church

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is a pretty large amount of pretty large church,

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got a huge parking lot. And that's where the

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command post was there. But I could look up at

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the church and I could see this two by four.

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And it is a huge two by four that was literally

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embedded in the brick and had never seen anything

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like that before. And then, you know, once we

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corralled and got ourselves together. We deployed

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out to our area of operations and we were still

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dealing with gas leaks and people trying to find

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their loved ones and all the rest of that stuff.

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And so I was put in an area where I was in traffic

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control, basically, who was allowed in, who was

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allowed out. And that was probably the longest

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36 hours or one of them that I had been on in

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my entire life. And then coming out of that,

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the sun rising and seeing all the destruction,

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you go back. And you're looking at it again.

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And then in May of 2013, there was another one

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that came through right in the same city. And

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this one was, I mean, just absolute destruction.

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And I was on the SWAT team at the time. And so

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they deployed us out to an area that was got

00:10:29.769 --> 00:10:35.070
a lot of national visibility. And so we, you

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know, we're the protective. force around the

00:10:37.740 --> 00:10:41.279
neighborhood. The national media was literally

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right where my area was at. And so, you know,

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we had to not only look for victims, look for

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survivors. You know, you're walking in areas

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and you feel absolutely so bad when you're walking

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through these areas and you look down and you

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stepped on a family's picture. You know what

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I mean? As you're going through all the rubble

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and you're just like your heart just melts. You

00:11:04.220 --> 00:11:07.100
know what I mean? You know, you're at the school

00:11:07.100 --> 00:11:09.320
that got just completely destroyed. You're pulling

00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:12.159
kids out of there and that type of thing. And

00:11:12.159 --> 00:11:14.840
that so you ask about my experience in tornadoes.

00:11:15.379 --> 00:11:19.279
There is a lot. My wife thinks I'm an absolute

00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:23.039
idiot because there's times where I look at the

00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:25.120
Doppler and I go, well, listen, if it ain't within

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about a half a mile, I'm not really worried.

00:11:27.559 --> 00:11:29.559
You know what I mean? Because I know, you know,

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I know the trajectory. I know where it's going.

00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:35.259
I can literally see it and I can predict where

00:11:35.259 --> 00:11:38.039
it's going to go just because you're around it

00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:41.659
so much. And then obviously seeing the ones that

00:11:41.659 --> 00:11:43.759
are continuously going right now, you know, we

00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:46.120
just you're we're constantly under that kind

00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:49.399
of that threat, you know. And so you just you

00:11:49.399 --> 00:11:51.500
live and learn from it. You understand it. You

00:11:51.500 --> 00:11:54.580
know, you know, I have a storm shelter and, you

00:11:54.580 --> 00:11:58.639
know, you do all your your. your your packing

00:11:58.639 --> 00:12:00.639
of your stuff and you make sure your kids know

00:12:00.639 --> 00:12:03.200
what to do and all the rest of stuff and you

00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:05.220
know and how do you how do you just make sure

00:12:05.220 --> 00:12:06.919
that you're going to survive whatever type of

00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:09.740
event that comes through it's just that mindset

00:12:09.740 --> 00:12:16.240
what is your perception on how long events like

00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:18.539
that stay in the media because when i think about

00:12:18.539 --> 00:12:21.809
tornadoes in my mind and it may I don't have

00:12:21.809 --> 00:12:24.370
the news so it's more relying on you know presence

00:12:24.370 --> 00:12:26.970
on social media and then diving in and you know

00:12:26.970 --> 00:12:30.070
BBC and some of those other ones but I I think

00:12:30.070 --> 00:12:32.210
about okay this happened today and then that's

00:12:32.210 --> 00:12:34.429
it it's gone but then you actually look at the

00:12:34.429 --> 00:12:36.889
devastation that some of these tornadoes cause

00:12:36.889 --> 00:12:40.009
and kind of like North Carolina with with the

00:12:40.009 --> 00:12:43.320
floods there It seems like it's in for a couple

00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:44.779
of days and it's forgotten. Meanwhile, the people

00:12:44.779 --> 00:12:46.559
of North Carolina are still digging their loved

00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:49.220
ones out of the mud today. So what is your perception

00:12:49.220 --> 00:12:53.580
on a national scale of how much exposure these

00:12:53.580 --> 00:12:57.480
events actually get in your area? So I think

00:12:57.480 --> 00:13:02.279
on the national side, it just gets a couple of

00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:05.820
days, maybe a week. It depends on the destruction.

00:13:06.500 --> 00:13:10.019
You know what I mean? I can say that May 3rd

00:13:10.019 --> 00:13:13.080
to April, The May 3rd tornado and then also the

00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:16.259
one in 2013. I mean, it obviously got some national

00:13:16.259 --> 00:13:18.960
attention. So it was there for a while. But the

00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:21.480
ones that are still, you know, F3s, F4s that

00:13:21.480 --> 00:13:24.360
come through and like there's a there's a there's

00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:27.980
a city that literally was just wiped out here

00:13:27.980 --> 00:13:31.139
in Oklahoma last year. And they're still. It's

00:13:31.139 --> 00:13:33.779
a year later. They're still in recovery efforts.

00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:36.379
You know, I mean, and the only ones that really

00:13:36.379 --> 00:13:38.720
do kind of focus on that are your local people,

00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:41.519
your local medias, your local newspapers, whatever

00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:44.639
it is. They're the ones that are giving that

00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:48.039
visibility to them. But on a national scale,

00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:50.340
it's there for a little bit. And then they move

00:13:50.340 --> 00:13:53.639
on to the next story. And that's. And I get it.

00:13:53.639 --> 00:13:56.679
I understand. But at the same time, lives are

00:13:56.679 --> 00:14:00.379
affected and things are going on. And you still

00:14:00.379 --> 00:14:03.299
have a massive impact. They're still rebuilding.

00:14:03.539 --> 00:14:05.080
They're still trying to get their economy back

00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:09.019
up and going. People lost jobs. This last one,

00:14:09.100 --> 00:14:15.480
they had police officers and firefighters that

00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:18.879
were going and dealing with the aftermath while

00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:22.279
their stuff is getting destroyed. You know what

00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:24.019
I mean? So it's just and I'm sure it's the same

00:14:24.019 --> 00:14:26.559
thing in Florida on on hurricanes and stuff like

00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:28.899
that. You know, I actually in the National Guard

00:14:28.899 --> 00:14:30.480
side of the house, I went to Hurricane Harvey

00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:33.580
down there by the Houston area. And we were deployed

00:14:33.580 --> 00:14:36.659
down there out of Oklahoma. And you saw the devastation

00:14:36.659 --> 00:14:39.000
of that hurricane. And that hurricane took forever

00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:42.799
to get, you know, for that economy to come back.

00:14:42.940 --> 00:14:47.799
Port Aransas is a is a big, you know, very well

00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:50.320
-known area down in that area. And it was completely

00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:53.990
destroyed. And, you know, when we go down there

00:14:53.990 --> 00:14:56.149
and see that, you're looking at it, you're like,

00:14:56.190 --> 00:14:58.009
how in the world can they rebuild from that?

00:14:58.590 --> 00:15:02.389
And it takes a few years. But to go back to your

00:15:02.389 --> 00:15:04.950
point, it's on there for a little bit and then

00:15:04.950 --> 00:15:08.389
it disappears. I just want to take a step back.

00:15:08.389 --> 00:15:10.570
And this is apolitical, you know, both sides.

00:15:11.110 --> 00:15:13.809
What normally ends up taking the attention off

00:15:13.809 --> 00:15:16.190
is, oh, this politician said this or this politician

00:15:16.190 --> 00:15:18.330
did that. And, you know, and now all of a sudden

00:15:18.330 --> 00:15:20.450
we're talking about stuff that isn't. helping

00:15:20.450 --> 00:15:23.289
fellow americans and it pulls the focus and it

00:15:23.289 --> 00:15:25.350
pulls the funding probably and it pulls the fema

00:15:25.350 --> 00:15:27.710
response i would assume you know because now

00:15:27.710 --> 00:15:29.370
we've forgotten about that you know it's not

00:15:29.370 --> 00:15:31.210
on the tv anymore so i think it's you know it's

00:15:31.210 --> 00:15:33.669
something worth a conversation like how long

00:15:33.669 --> 00:15:36.470
should we retain the focus on that and you know

00:15:36.470 --> 00:15:38.929
should we be kept up on on the rebuild and how

00:15:38.929 --> 00:15:41.169
people how are people doing and you know people

00:15:41.169 --> 00:15:44.789
now finding their their way into a home now versus

00:15:44.789 --> 00:15:47.059
a trailer i mean You know, you look at some of

00:15:47.059 --> 00:15:49.759
the things from Katrina and then the Puerto Rico

00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:53.919
hurricanes and, you know, years later, some people

00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:55.480
are still not back to where they should have

00:15:55.480 --> 00:16:00.259
been. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I think

00:16:00.259 --> 00:16:02.080
they're, you know, in the media side, and obviously

00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:04.700
I'm not in the media, but I think if they were

00:16:04.700 --> 00:16:07.539
to say, all right, hey, listen, let's go and

00:16:07.539 --> 00:16:10.580
see what good stories are out of. you know, out

00:16:10.580 --> 00:16:13.120
of this, you know, what, what have people done

00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:16.600
to rebuild? What, what are some, some good lessons

00:16:16.600 --> 00:16:19.179
learned so we can actually talk about it. Right.

00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:22.379
So, because I think sometimes what happens is

00:16:22.379 --> 00:16:24.179
those lessons learned are just stayed in a vacuum.

00:16:24.700 --> 00:16:27.039
You know, they're not, if, if, if they're just

00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:29.000
stayed there in that vacuum, then nobody else

00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:33.139
can learn, you know, Houston, you know, New Orleans,

00:16:33.259 --> 00:16:36.529
you know. Tampa, Florida, all the rest of the

00:16:36.529 --> 00:16:38.470
stuff, if they don't learn that lesson that,

00:16:38.470 --> 00:16:40.529
you know, that they learned, how are they going

00:16:40.529 --> 00:16:43.129
to know? You know what I mean? And I think the

00:16:43.129 --> 00:16:45.549
biggest, whether it's social media or just the

00:16:45.549 --> 00:16:50.330
media itself, the local media, you know, I remember

00:16:50.330 --> 00:16:53.830
doing just a local story here and it blew up

00:16:53.830 --> 00:16:55.769
and it ended up on, you know, Fox and Friends.

00:16:55.929 --> 00:16:57.629
You know, it was just because of an initiative

00:16:57.629 --> 00:17:01.190
that we had taken on during COVID and all of

00:17:01.190 --> 00:17:03.879
a sudden it was. It was boom. It was out there.

00:17:03.940 --> 00:17:05.359
You know what I mean? So I think there's value

00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:09.900
in looking at something where, yeah, you had

00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:11.880
it. It was devastation. It was bad, all the rest

00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:14.220
of the stuff. And I think that's, unfortunately,

00:17:14.299 --> 00:17:17.400
that's where the media focuses a lot on. But

00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:20.359
they need to go back a month, three months, six

00:17:20.359 --> 00:17:22.420
months later and go, hey, listen, these are some

00:17:22.420 --> 00:17:25.079
of the things that they have done to position

00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:29.980
and prove their. community their townships all

00:17:29.980 --> 00:17:32.640
the rest of stuff right even to you know fire

00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:36.039
response police response you know uh female response

00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:37.880
you know what have they done to improve themselves

00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:40.819
and i think the other thing is how can we help

00:17:40.819 --> 00:17:42.960
i think people still want to keep helping but

00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:44.599
you need to be focused all right well this initial

00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:46.900
thing now you know food and diapers and all that

00:17:46.900 --> 00:17:49.039
stuff we're good with that but yeah you can help

00:17:49.039 --> 00:17:51.599
contribute to the rebuild or you know whatever

00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:53.660
it is because there's a lot of people that are

00:17:53.660 --> 00:17:56.789
wanting to donate And there's that term donation

00:17:56.789 --> 00:17:59.230
fatigue, and I understand it. Every man and his

00:17:59.230 --> 00:18:01.589
dog has got to go fund me these days. So again,

00:18:01.670 --> 00:18:03.529
how can we kind of band together? Okay, well,

00:18:03.569 --> 00:18:05.890
these people really need our help right now and

00:18:05.890 --> 00:18:07.890
refocus that kind of altruism in the States.

00:18:08.730 --> 00:18:11.069
Yeah, it's that sustainability, you know, that

00:18:11.069 --> 00:18:13.829
it's got to stay on the radar. You know what

00:18:13.829 --> 00:18:15.609
I mean? And if it's not on the radar, then people

00:18:15.609 --> 00:18:17.509
are, you know, they, it's just like everyday

00:18:17.509 --> 00:18:20.049
lives, you know, whatever's in, if you look at

00:18:20.049 --> 00:18:21.470
their calendar, they're just attacking their

00:18:21.470 --> 00:18:23.829
calendar for that next 24. You know what I mean?

00:18:23.849 --> 00:18:25.609
They've already forgotten about the last, you

00:18:25.609 --> 00:18:27.150
know, three weeks or whatever it was, you know

00:18:27.150 --> 00:18:29.390
what I mean? So it's just keeping it on their

00:18:29.390 --> 00:18:31.769
calendar, on their radar, you know, and I think

00:18:31.769 --> 00:18:34.369
if you intentionally do stuff like that, then

00:18:34.369 --> 00:18:37.109
maybe, you know, things will become much more

00:18:37.109 --> 00:18:41.009
positive. It's funny you mentioned about the

00:18:41.009 --> 00:18:43.750
echo chamber not learning. I see the same in,

00:18:43.809 --> 00:18:45.369
you know, I know fire. I mean, I don't know if

00:18:45.369 --> 00:18:47.990
it's the same in the police, but until people

00:18:47.990 --> 00:18:50.049
have actually worked in the States, you don't.

00:18:50.049 --> 00:18:51.750
And then certainly if you've been in multiple

00:18:51.750 --> 00:18:54.130
departments where you get more of a 10 ,000 foot

00:18:54.130 --> 00:18:57.410
view, you realize how fragmented our profession

00:18:57.410 --> 00:19:00.049
actually is. And not only is there cities and

00:19:00.049 --> 00:19:03.150
counties, but in some places, cities and counties

00:19:03.150 --> 00:19:05.369
won't even talk to each other and PD and FT won't

00:19:05.369 --> 00:19:07.960
talk to each other. And so you have this, all

00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:10.720
these good people reinventing the wheel, whether

00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:12.279
it's a mental health initiative, whether it's

00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:14.319
a training initiative, whether it's trying to

00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:16.160
bring, you know, police and fire together for

00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:18.099
the next, God forbid, you know, school shooting.

00:19:18.759 --> 00:19:22.200
But there's so much wasted energy because I feel

00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:24.180
though, even when we've got unions and some other,

00:19:24.180 --> 00:19:26.460
you know, air quotes, national organizations,

00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:30.380
I don't feel like they do pull us together. And

00:19:30.380 --> 00:19:33.799
there's a lot of wasted effort on dissemination

00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:36.609
of knowledge. And therefore people kind of, starting

00:19:36.609 --> 00:19:39.029
from the bottom when you know maybe two states

00:19:39.029 --> 00:19:40.730
over someone's figured it out and i've got a

00:19:40.730 --> 00:19:45.250
great program that they could just adopt yeah

00:19:45.250 --> 00:19:48.210
i think i'm glad you said that because i just

00:19:48.210 --> 00:19:50.250
had a conversation with a friend of mine today

00:19:50.250 --> 00:19:56.890
on just the umbrella of synchronization right

00:19:56.890 --> 00:20:00.289
so you know when we respond to things when we

00:20:00.289 --> 00:20:02.910
go out to certain instances or whatever it is

00:20:02.910 --> 00:20:05.109
you know the police are they're in their lane

00:20:05.710 --> 00:20:08.609
The fire in their lane, EMS are in their lane,

00:20:08.690 --> 00:20:11.769
right? Dispatches in their lane. And a lot of

00:20:11.769 --> 00:20:13.950
times what happens is they just stay in that

00:20:13.950 --> 00:20:17.069
lane. And they don't look at kind of the bigger

00:20:17.069 --> 00:20:21.490
picture, right, of the totality. And I get into

00:20:21.490 --> 00:20:25.089
this a lot, James, when it talks to we are very

00:20:25.089 --> 00:20:28.369
linear and hierarchy oriented instead of strategy

00:20:28.369 --> 00:20:32.130
oriented. Right. So, you know, when we and that's

00:20:32.130 --> 00:20:34.430
all by rank and, you know, all the rest of that

00:20:34.430 --> 00:20:36.609
stuff. Right. So you have a task and purpose

00:20:36.609 --> 00:20:39.809
and it's all by rank and what you do and your

00:20:39.809 --> 00:20:41.569
position description, all the rest of that stuff.

00:20:42.069 --> 00:20:45.329
But we get so honed in on that that we can't

00:20:45.329 --> 00:20:47.049
look at the bigger picture. And that goes not

00:20:47.049 --> 00:20:49.230
just for the line guys or the middle management

00:20:49.230 --> 00:20:52.910
side. That's even the hierarchy. And I think

00:20:52.910 --> 00:20:55.910
sometimes what they do is they go, well, I can't

00:20:55.910 --> 00:20:59.849
talk to that that other entity because. I don't

00:20:59.849 --> 00:21:03.930
know anything about them. Right. So, okay. So

00:21:03.930 --> 00:21:05.390
you're just going to stay over here in this corner

00:21:05.390 --> 00:21:07.450
and not know anything when you guys are doing

00:21:07.450 --> 00:21:09.970
mutual aid type responses. And I'm not saying

00:21:09.970 --> 00:21:13.650
that that doesn't happen, but there's a lot of

00:21:13.650 --> 00:21:16.609
times where, you know, think we would show up

00:21:16.609 --> 00:21:18.549
to certain incidents or whatever it is and fires

00:21:18.549 --> 00:21:20.750
doing this, we're doing this and all that. And

00:21:20.750 --> 00:21:22.490
then it's like, okay, so what did we learn from

00:21:22.490 --> 00:21:26.259
that? You know, where, where's the big. you know

00:21:26.259 --> 00:21:28.859
effort within the fr community to say hey listen

00:21:28.859 --> 00:21:32.160
you know what did we do right what did we do

00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:36.299
wrong right and then how can we put those lessons

00:21:36.299 --> 00:21:38.259
learned or an after action review whatever you

00:21:38.259 --> 00:21:41.480
want to call it right and then let's let's look

00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:45.279
at it you know how can we improve it and not

00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:50.420
only that why don't we share that in other organizations

00:21:50.420 --> 00:21:56.690
so i i i don't know of a kind of a multi entity,

00:21:56.690 --> 00:21:59.829
association that brings in police, fire, EMS,

00:22:00.029 --> 00:22:02.650
all kind of your first responder umbrella where

00:22:02.650 --> 00:22:06.789
they all talk to each other. Right. And that's

00:22:06.789 --> 00:22:08.670
that's something that's very, you know, police

00:22:08.670 --> 00:22:11.329
oriented fire. And I've been to so many different

00:22:11.329 --> 00:22:13.829
conferences now. It's all within their lanes

00:22:13.829 --> 00:22:16.390
and they just kind of just stay in their lanes.

00:22:17.150 --> 00:22:21.470
And that sometimes can cause some friction. Absolutely.

00:22:21.809 --> 00:22:24.630
Yeah, I agree completely. You mentioned about

00:22:24.630 --> 00:22:28.289
Germany. So let's go back to early life. Where

00:22:28.289 --> 00:22:30.329
where did you find yourself internationally?

00:22:30.750 --> 00:22:33.670
And then when you reflect back now, what was

00:22:33.670 --> 00:22:36.089
some of the things about that particular country

00:22:36.089 --> 00:22:40.130
that, you know, you think fondly of now? Oh,

00:22:40.210 --> 00:22:43.930
man. Well, I will tell you. So there's a there's

00:22:43.930 --> 00:22:46.150
some positive and negatives about, you know,

00:22:46.150 --> 00:22:48.890
being a military brat. And I'll kind of hone

00:22:48.890 --> 00:22:51.750
in first on the positives. You know, I was born

00:22:51.750 --> 00:22:54.349
in Blyville, Arkansas, and it's not even that

00:22:54.349 --> 00:22:57.349
base anymore. And then I went to Del Rio, Texas,

00:22:57.529 --> 00:23:00.990
and my dad was a flight instructor there and

00:23:00.990 --> 00:23:02.890
then moved up to Tinker Air Force Base. And that

00:23:02.890 --> 00:23:07.289
was 1981 to 85. And then we PCS permanent changes

00:23:07.289 --> 00:23:09.809
the station out to Ramstein, Germany. So I was

00:23:09.809 --> 00:23:13.430
fourth grade through sixth grade. This is 1985

00:23:13.430 --> 00:23:16.529
to 88. And this is during the Cold War. So the

00:23:16.529 --> 00:23:19.900
wall was up. East Germany, West Germany, all

00:23:19.900 --> 00:23:21.819
your communist countries, all the rest of that

00:23:21.819 --> 00:23:24.279
stuff. But if you remember, too, James, at that

00:23:24.279 --> 00:23:26.940
time, Libya was bombing everything in Western

00:23:26.940 --> 00:23:32.099
Europe. They were going around to every U .S.-oriented

00:23:32.099 --> 00:23:37.140
type facility and bombing it. You would drive

00:23:37.140 --> 00:23:39.859
up to the Air Force Base gate and, you know,

00:23:39.900 --> 00:23:42.779
you'd pull up and they'd have sandbags and they

00:23:42.779 --> 00:23:46.539
have an M -60, you know, just. on its tripod,

00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:49.119
and they're searching underneath your car, all

00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:51.140
the rest of this stuff. And as a fourth grader,

00:23:51.140 --> 00:23:54.259
right, coming from the United States, seeing

00:23:54.259 --> 00:23:56.779
that, you're going, what's going on here? You

00:23:56.779 --> 00:23:58.119
know what I mean? Why do we have all this stuff

00:23:58.119 --> 00:24:01.819
going on? But then going into the actual base

00:24:01.819 --> 00:24:03.960
and just learning the culture and learning the

00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:06.400
food and learning the school system. And, you

00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:08.880
know, we lived on base, but we were able to travel.

00:24:08.920 --> 00:24:14.029
And one of the things that really made me value

00:24:14.029 --> 00:24:17.430
the United States of America was in fifth grade.

00:24:17.569 --> 00:24:20.509
I want to, it was a boy scout trip. Um, and we

00:24:20.509 --> 00:24:23.970
went to East Berlin. So we ended up going through

00:24:23.970 --> 00:24:27.269
West Berlin and, uh, went into, into East through

00:24:27.269 --> 00:24:29.869
checkpoint Charlie. You could see the wall. So

00:24:29.869 --> 00:24:32.269
on the, on the West side of Berlin, you have

00:24:32.269 --> 00:24:34.710
all the spray paintings of the murals and all

00:24:34.710 --> 00:24:36.029
the rest of the stuff for the people that have

00:24:36.029 --> 00:24:40.399
tried to jump the wall, but were killed. And

00:24:40.399 --> 00:24:43.039
so we went on a bus. We went to East Germany.

00:24:43.079 --> 00:24:44.859
We're walking around. We're seeing Brandenburg

00:24:44.859 --> 00:24:47.220
Gate and all the rest of that stuff. And I remember

00:24:47.220 --> 00:24:49.900
an East German guard coming up to me and taking

00:24:49.900 --> 00:24:53.460
a camera that I had. And back then, you know,

00:24:53.500 --> 00:24:55.079
you had film in the camera. And so you're taking

00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:56.799
a picture. And that East German guard took that

00:24:56.799 --> 00:25:00.119
camera, opened it, ripped the film out, threw

00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:03.359
it, and just yelled at me, right? And whether

00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:06.500
it was Russian or German, I don't remember. But

00:25:06.500 --> 00:25:08.259
then what they told us was like, you couldn't

00:25:08.259 --> 00:25:10.980
buy anything on that market. And if, if you've

00:25:10.980 --> 00:25:12.859
ever seen any East German money, it's all, it

00:25:12.859 --> 00:25:15.019
looks like funny money. It's all real light.

00:25:15.160 --> 00:25:18.240
And it just, it doesn't look real. So I bought

00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:19.819
this, they told us we couldn't buy anything,

00:25:19.900 --> 00:25:24.059
but I did anyway, typical American. So I, I bought

00:25:24.059 --> 00:25:28.200
this little bear. It was a, I don't remember

00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:30.299
what kind of, it was called a stife. Anyway,

00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:33.420
so I bring it on the bus and we're coming back

00:25:33.420 --> 00:25:35.900
through and we're, we're going through. checkpoint

00:25:35.900 --> 00:25:38.539
Charlie to go back onto the West side. And I

00:25:38.539 --> 00:25:40.339
remember this Russian Eastern guard with his

00:25:40.339 --> 00:25:43.039
AK 47, just, you know, walking up, we've got

00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:45.279
our passports up against the, up against the

00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:49.740
window and he gets pissed. And I'm like, Oh Lord,

00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:51.660
what's going on? So he comes up onto the bus,

00:25:51.819 --> 00:25:56.400
walks around. And I think I'm done. Cause I have

00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:58.940
this bear, right? I'm like, I'm thinking I'm

00:25:58.940 --> 00:26:01.119
never going to see my family again. I'm not,

00:26:01.140 --> 00:26:04.349
I mean, all that stuff, all that fear. Went right

00:26:04.349 --> 00:26:08.430
in through my body. And he gets off the bus,

00:26:08.529 --> 00:26:10.569
waves us through. And my parents are waiting

00:26:10.569 --> 00:26:12.910
on the other side. And it was like a homecoming.

00:26:13.869 --> 00:26:16.990
Like I ran off that bus, grabbed my stuff. I

00:26:16.990 --> 00:26:19.230
wrapped my arms around my mom. I was like, do

00:26:19.230 --> 00:26:22.470
not ever send me to a communist area ever again.

00:26:22.650 --> 00:26:26.170
Right. So, you know, on the positive side, I

00:26:26.170 --> 00:26:29.690
really saw the value of what the U .S. is for.

00:26:29.809 --> 00:26:31.990
You know what I mean? The freedom, the ability

00:26:31.990 --> 00:26:39.230
to. to have the laws that we have, the freedom

00:26:39.230 --> 00:26:40.670
of speech and all the rest of the stuff that

00:26:40.670 --> 00:26:45.150
we have here. And then I went back to Tinker

00:26:45.150 --> 00:26:48.609
and spent some time there. And then I went, my

00:26:48.609 --> 00:26:51.670
dad got PCS'd again a month into my senior year

00:26:51.670 --> 00:26:54.390
in high school. And we had to go back to Germany.

00:26:55.009 --> 00:26:57.009
And I'll be honest with you, James, I was not

00:26:57.009 --> 00:27:01.299
a very happy camper because I was... varsity

00:27:01.299 --> 00:27:04.740
everything i was i was doing all the things athletically

00:27:04.740 --> 00:27:08.140
wise you know i really kind of grew my roots

00:27:08.140 --> 00:27:10.920
because you know i was actually somewhere for

00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:13.500
a long period of time and i was actually starting

00:27:13.500 --> 00:27:16.900
to create relationships and now to be ripped

00:27:16.900 --> 00:27:20.819
out of that and go 7 000 miles away um it really

00:27:20.819 --> 00:27:24.980
really destroyed me internally But the good thing

00:27:24.980 --> 00:27:27.339
is, is my mom sat me down at a Baskin Robbins

00:27:27.339 --> 00:27:29.480
ice cream store and said, hey, listen, son, you're

00:27:29.480 --> 00:27:30.839
going to have to get your shit straight. And

00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:34.160
I'm like, all right. So I ended up going. I didn't

00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:37.900
do any sports, but I went to JROTC. And I really

00:27:37.900 --> 00:27:42.079
love the uniform. I love with my dad. I respect

00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:45.079
what my dad did. My grandfather was a P -38 pilot

00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:49.339
in World War II. We actually flew out of, we

00:27:49.339 --> 00:27:51.909
actually went to his airfield in England. and

00:27:51.909 --> 00:27:54.109
saw the airfield that he flew out of. And I cannot

00:27:54.109 --> 00:27:55.750
remember off the top of my head what the name

00:27:55.750 --> 00:27:59.430
of it is. But really got to understand history,

00:27:59.529 --> 00:28:01.589
learn history. I went to, you know, we went to

00:28:01.589 --> 00:28:06.309
Normandy. In a JROTC setting, I went and did

00:28:06.309 --> 00:28:10.650
a lot of rifle team competitions. And one of

00:28:10.650 --> 00:28:14.789
them was in London, England. And just, you know,

00:28:14.809 --> 00:28:16.829
all those things that we got to do, you know,

00:28:16.829 --> 00:28:20.369
and just expanded my mind on what Europe was

00:28:20.369 --> 00:28:23.920
like. You know, I went to I went to Lisbon, Portugal.

00:28:24.099 --> 00:28:28.160
I did, you know, you know, I did Aviano, Italy

00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:31.160
and just all these places that we went to and

00:28:31.160 --> 00:28:34.519
really got to see the culture that is out there.

00:28:35.140 --> 00:28:38.880
And then, you know, I got I got accepted at the

00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:42.779
University of Central Oklahoma and came here.

00:28:42.920 --> 00:28:45.839
And that was in 1994. And my parents were still

00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:47.940
stationed in Germany at the time. So I did two

00:28:47.940 --> 00:28:51.109
years of college. away from them, but I would

00:28:51.109 --> 00:28:54.410
go back every Christmas and summer back to Germany

00:28:54.410 --> 00:28:57.289
and hang out with them, do some trips, that kind

00:28:57.289 --> 00:29:00.390
of thing. But I haven't been back since I was

00:29:00.390 --> 00:29:04.170
19 years old and I cannot wait to go back. I

00:29:04.170 --> 00:29:06.130
look forward to taking my wife and child over

00:29:06.130 --> 00:29:08.089
there. I think it's absolutely essential that

00:29:08.089 --> 00:29:11.190
they see it, that they feel it, they understand

00:29:11.190 --> 00:29:13.869
the culture, they understand the food, the language,

00:29:14.109 --> 00:29:16.849
all those things. I think it's extremely important.

00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:19.180
For them to know that and not just be in the

00:29:19.180 --> 00:29:22.960
bubble of the United States. And so anyway, that's

00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:25.019
that was my experience. Now, my negative side,

00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:28.460
as I kind of touched on a little bit before that

00:29:28.460 --> 00:29:32.559
whole movement piece created a lot of relationship

00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:35.700
issues that I would have. I would get I would

00:29:35.700 --> 00:29:38.079
only gain about surface oriented relationships.

00:29:39.180 --> 00:29:44.339
So it was really hard for me to trust and be

00:29:44.339 --> 00:29:48.670
able to. have those deep relationships with people.

00:29:49.470 --> 00:29:52.509
And that, that went into my, into my service

00:29:52.509 --> 00:29:55.609
in the army that went into my, you know, service

00:29:55.609 --> 00:29:57.349
in the police department, that kind of thing.

00:29:57.849 --> 00:30:00.990
But as I grew here and as I, as I gained knowledge

00:30:00.990 --> 00:30:03.230
and good friendships, you know, that, that had

00:30:03.230 --> 00:30:07.730
started to go away. But that was, you know, that's,

00:30:07.730 --> 00:30:09.529
that's really kind of the negative that I could

00:30:09.529 --> 00:30:11.390
see out of it. But, you know, you always, you

00:30:11.390 --> 00:30:13.109
always pull yourself out of it. You know, you,

00:30:13.170 --> 00:30:16.700
you figure it out. Amazing. It just reminded

00:30:16.700 --> 00:30:19.579
me, I watched that docu -series Turning Point.

00:30:19.740 --> 00:30:21.839
There's one on 9 -11, there's one on the Cold

00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:24.779
War. And they tell the story of how the wall

00:30:24.779 --> 00:30:27.359
came down in Berlin. And I'm going to probably

00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:29.460
butcher it, but it was something to the effect

00:30:29.460 --> 00:30:31.680
that they finally, under national pressure, said,

00:30:31.779 --> 00:30:34.299
OK, we're going to let a few people go through.

00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:37.059
And I think the initial thing was you kind of

00:30:37.059 --> 00:30:40.400
relinquished your citizenship in the East. You

00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:42.700
had to give them your passport. You walk through

00:30:42.700 --> 00:30:45.210
and then you never come back again. Well, they

00:30:45.210 --> 00:30:46.950
send, you know, all these people start lining

00:30:46.950 --> 00:30:49.130
up down by the wall, by the checkpoint, excuse

00:30:49.130 --> 00:30:50.990
me. And they're going through and they're like,

00:30:51.069 --> 00:30:54.349
yeah, this is what we've been told. And I guess

00:30:54.349 --> 00:30:56.730
they were trying to get hold of Russia to say,

00:30:56.809 --> 00:30:59.230
okay, what are we doing here? And they weren't

00:30:59.230 --> 00:31:01.190
answering. They were kind of like ignoring everything.

00:31:01.930 --> 00:31:04.470
So then they first let them through. And then

00:31:04.470 --> 00:31:05.529
some of these people were like, well, actually,

00:31:05.569 --> 00:31:07.509
I need to get back to my family. So then they

00:31:07.509 --> 00:31:09.230
were, you know, umming and ahhing, they let them

00:31:09.230 --> 00:31:12.869
back through. And what happened is word got around

00:31:12.869 --> 00:31:15.890
and people started pouring through. And then

00:31:15.890 --> 00:31:18.710
the word was, you know, the borders are open.

00:31:18.789 --> 00:31:21.250
We're good. And it was all because I think there

00:31:21.250 --> 00:31:23.970
was one one guy and it was really interesting

00:31:23.970 --> 00:31:26.569
the way they put it. He did a press conference

00:31:26.569 --> 00:31:28.190
and this is how it all started. He just did a

00:31:28.190 --> 00:31:29.650
press conference and said, we're going to open

00:31:29.650 --> 00:31:32.670
it. But he was flustered because when you are

00:31:32.670 --> 00:31:35.509
a dictator, you know, or, you know, a communist

00:31:35.509 --> 00:31:38.470
regime, you don't do interviews. You tell everyone

00:31:38.470 --> 00:31:41.279
what's going to happen. So now he's on this national

00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:43.519
stage. He does an interview, completely falls

00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:46.220
apart, says the wrong thing. People go to the

00:31:46.220 --> 00:31:49.200
border. They start confusing the guards. The

00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:50.660
guards are just basically like, well, fuck it.

00:31:50.680 --> 00:31:52.839
Just go through. No one's given us any orders.

00:31:53.220 --> 00:31:55.440
And that is actually how the wall came down.

00:31:55.480 --> 00:31:57.859
That led to all these people going through and

00:31:57.859 --> 00:31:59.920
then they started chipping at the wall. And I

00:31:59.920 --> 00:32:01.960
didn't realize that. I thought it was kind of

00:32:01.960 --> 00:32:04.160
a little bit more diplomatic than that, but it

00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:06.640
really wasn't. It was just a kind of crumbling

00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:10.539
of the entire. facade that was this you know

00:32:10.539 --> 00:32:12.559
this barrier between the east german people and

00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:15.880
the west german people so i mean the the swell

00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:19.420
of support that you know started growing once

00:32:19.420 --> 00:32:21.140
some of the people started chipping away and

00:32:21.140 --> 00:32:23.319
we're all pouring through and you know relatives

00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:26.539
were reunited after all those years um yeah all

00:32:26.539 --> 00:32:30.000
because there's one one communist couldn't do

00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:32.079
a very good press conference it's kind of actually

00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:35.289
quite funny when you look at the backstory Yeah.

00:32:35.470 --> 00:32:39.410
Yeah. God bless state, state run TV, right? Exactly.

00:32:39.710 --> 00:32:42.410
Exactly. Yeah. It's, it's, you know, it's, it's

00:32:42.410 --> 00:32:44.250
great, James, because, you know, my family and

00:32:44.250 --> 00:32:47.490
I, we, we were able to, to gain a couple of pieces

00:32:47.490 --> 00:32:49.609
of the wall, you know what I mean? And it's,

00:32:49.609 --> 00:32:51.950
it's, it's, it's pretty neat that, you know,

00:32:51.950 --> 00:32:53.990
we have that, you know, in our house and stuff

00:32:53.990 --> 00:32:57.150
like that, because it was such, it was such a

00:32:57.150 --> 00:32:59.650
big thing for us to see, you know, my dad over

00:32:59.650 --> 00:33:01.369
there doing his thing in the, in the, in the

00:33:01.369 --> 00:33:04.839
air force. And, you know, I did. I mean, we saw

00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:09.559
it, you know, we saw the depression, the just

00:33:09.559 --> 00:33:13.740
the look on people's faces like they you could

00:33:13.740 --> 00:33:16.380
see, James, that they actually despise this being

00:33:16.380 --> 00:33:18.960
there because they didn't want they didn't want

00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:21.099
to see in the way that they were in, you know

00:33:21.099 --> 00:33:22.859
what I mean? And the environment that they were

00:33:22.859 --> 00:33:25.740
in. And that was that was heartbreaking to see

00:33:25.740 --> 00:33:27.779
that, you know what I mean? And just and then

00:33:27.779 --> 00:33:30.359
to be able to go back over, you know, and they

00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:33.509
can't. I mean, that just that just pulls on you.

00:33:33.589 --> 00:33:36.109
You know what I mean? And so and they would have

00:33:36.109 --> 00:33:38.349
literally, James, they would right outside the

00:33:38.349 --> 00:33:41.589
wall with these murals and they were just beautifully

00:33:41.589 --> 00:33:44.470
spray painted. But they would have these little

00:33:44.470 --> 00:33:47.650
platforms that they had built on the on the west

00:33:47.650 --> 00:33:49.849
side to where you could kind of see over the

00:33:49.849 --> 00:33:53.210
wall. Right. And you would have guard shacks.

00:33:53.250 --> 00:33:55.529
I mean, and they would just they would just lock

00:33:55.529 --> 00:33:58.329
in on you. You know what I mean? Like and that

00:33:58.329 --> 00:34:03.369
was just. Could never, that's the value I cannot

00:34:03.369 --> 00:34:06.130
stay. And every time I talk to my troops and

00:34:06.130 --> 00:34:08.750
I've talked to various different people, I always

00:34:08.750 --> 00:34:12.550
explain that, that we are so lucky to where we're

00:34:12.550 --> 00:34:14.909
at right now. And to be able to experience that

00:34:14.909 --> 00:34:18.389
as a young fifth grader was something I'll never

00:34:18.389 --> 00:34:22.409
forget. Well, if you think as well, multi -generational

00:34:22.409 --> 00:34:26.409
trauma, you have the Germans after losing the

00:34:26.409 --> 00:34:29.710
First World War. So the average man and woman

00:34:29.710 --> 00:34:31.469
are fighting, being told, okay, this is what

00:34:31.469 --> 00:34:34.090
we have to do. Loads of them die, and they rot

00:34:34.090 --> 00:34:36.889
in trenches just like the Allies do. They lose.

00:34:36.969 --> 00:34:39.289
Now they go back to a massive depression. Then

00:34:39.289 --> 00:34:41.909
this crazy little fucker with a mustache comes

00:34:41.909 --> 00:34:43.849
up, starts getting everyone riled up. This is

00:34:43.849 --> 00:34:46.150
how we're going to fix it. Same thing happens.

00:34:46.889 --> 00:34:49.489
Hundreds of thousands of Germans die. you know

00:34:49.489 --> 00:34:51.489
obviously some are horrendous people but most

00:34:51.489 --> 00:34:53.329
are probably just thinking they're you know doing

00:34:53.329 --> 00:34:54.849
the right thing for their country don't know

00:34:54.849 --> 00:34:56.809
about a lot of the stuff that's going on behind

00:34:56.809 --> 00:35:00.869
the closed doors and then again now they're half

00:35:00.869 --> 00:35:03.090
you know westernized and half you know on the

00:35:03.090 --> 00:35:05.949
communist side and then you know the war comes

00:35:05.949 --> 00:35:09.630
down and you just think i mean generationally

00:35:09.630 --> 00:35:11.409
what has that done to the germans i know a lot

00:35:11.409 --> 00:35:13.230
of us look at them as you know they're the evil

00:35:13.230 --> 00:35:17.360
but No, there's some tyrants that use them like

00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:20.300
puppets, like we see even to present day, that

00:35:20.300 --> 00:35:22.360
coax a lot of them into doing things. I would

00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:23.820
say the same with the Russians that went into

00:35:23.820 --> 00:35:25.400
Ukraine. Most of them probably couldn't give

00:35:25.400 --> 00:35:27.500
a shit about going into that country. They just

00:35:27.500 --> 00:35:30.300
want to be at home with their family. So this

00:35:30.300 --> 00:35:32.900
kind of history repeating itself is so tragic

00:35:32.900 --> 00:35:35.400
because then you get a broken down population.

00:35:35.860 --> 00:35:38.619
Now they're easier to divide. And now the potential

00:35:38.619 --> 00:35:42.860
of this happening yet again grows. Right. Yeah,

00:35:42.920 --> 00:35:46.440
absolutely. And I even when I was in high school,

00:35:46.599 --> 00:35:50.920
we would walk around and my the second tour that

00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:55.340
we're in, we actually we actually made it purposeful

00:35:55.340 --> 00:35:59.119
to live on outside off the base. So we lived

00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:02.840
about 20 kilometers outside the base. We're in

00:36:02.840 --> 00:36:05.619
the foothills of a small little mountain. We

00:36:05.619 --> 00:36:07.500
actually had a castle in our in our backyard

00:36:07.500 --> 00:36:11.559
that was up the hill. But we're in a cul -de

00:36:11.559 --> 00:36:16.679
-sac and we purposely put ourselves into that

00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:20.940
village setting. Because my dad and my mom were

00:36:20.940 --> 00:36:25.320
very intentful to understand and know the Germans.

00:36:25.420 --> 00:36:29.480
And we got to sit down and have just long talks

00:36:29.480 --> 00:36:33.460
with the Germans back from World War II, even

00:36:33.460 --> 00:36:37.769
before that. you know, their country developed

00:36:37.769 --> 00:36:40.849
afterwards and where they're at now, the attitude

00:36:40.849 --> 00:36:43.269
towards the West and all the rest of that stuff.

00:36:43.349 --> 00:36:46.230
And one of the really great things that they

00:36:46.230 --> 00:36:49.389
really appreciated was my parents putting my

00:36:49.389 --> 00:36:52.269
youngest sister in a German elementary school.

00:36:52.710 --> 00:36:56.510
So instead of going through a, you know, a DOD

00:36:56.510 --> 00:36:59.130
school there on base, they wanted her to go in.

00:36:59.309 --> 00:37:01.440
And I'll tell you what though, man. this was

00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:03.360
a good thing because my dad really liked it so

00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:04.820
when they would have parent teacher conferences

00:37:04.820 --> 00:37:08.860
they would have a keg of beer out there so they

00:37:08.860 --> 00:37:10.619
have a keg of german beer a little bit burger

00:37:10.619 --> 00:37:12.800
or something like that so my dad was always at

00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:15.480
the parent teacher conference um so they knew

00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:18.460
how to do it up right you know so um but you

00:37:18.460 --> 00:37:21.539
know just just getting to really kind of see

00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:26.880
Their impact and how the West impacted them and

00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:30.460
how their own people impacted them and that type

00:37:30.460 --> 00:37:32.900
of thing. It was just it was a really, really

00:37:32.900 --> 00:37:37.039
good, good relationship. And even now, my parents

00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:41.900
had brought over two German exchange students.

00:37:42.320 --> 00:37:44.559
And so they came over and they lived with us

00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:47.920
for several years here in Oklahoma. And we have

00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:50.860
multiple visits now. Like they come to us, we

00:37:50.860 --> 00:37:52.719
go to them, they're all married, got kids, all

00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:54.420
the rest of the stuff, but we consider them part

00:37:54.420 --> 00:37:56.500
of the family. You know what I mean? And it's

00:37:56.500 --> 00:37:58.500
just, it's just creating that type of relationship,

00:37:58.739 --> 00:38:01.679
you know? And they, you know, obviously they

00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:04.340
have their culture and their thought process,

00:38:04.460 --> 00:38:08.019
but, you know, it's, it's such a, it's such a

00:38:08.019 --> 00:38:09.920
good environment to be around, you know, different

00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:12.920
cultures and, and, and seeing, you know, how

00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:14.880
they live and what they do and all the rest of

00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:19.079
the stuff as opposed to us. I went skiing a few

00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:22.800
times while I was in elementary school, basically.

00:38:22.980 --> 00:38:24.659
So the first time I think I was eight. So that

00:38:24.659 --> 00:38:29.800
would have been 1984. So you're talking less

00:38:29.800 --> 00:38:33.639
than 40 years after the war ended. And the Austrian

00:38:33.639 --> 00:38:38.780
people are beautiful people. And then 2001, right

00:38:38.780 --> 00:38:41.420
at midnight, I landed in Japan, lived there for

00:38:41.420 --> 00:38:44.159
15 months. And beautiful people again. And again,

00:38:44.219 --> 00:38:47.119
they were, you know. against us in world war

00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:50.059
ii and you just see that you know it's that shared

00:38:50.059 --> 00:38:53.000
humanity and when you look back over and over

00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:55.960
again it's the greedy and you know power hungry

00:38:55.960 --> 00:38:59.320
few that that ruin it for everyone and i'm hoping

00:38:59.320 --> 00:39:01.340
that there's going to be like an awakening now

00:39:01.340 --> 00:39:03.960
in this technological age where people are finally

00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:07.000
seeing like those tall poppies are rotten and

00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:09.159
you got to cut the head off and right you know

00:39:09.159 --> 00:39:13.789
start again right Yeah, absolutely. And I think

00:39:13.789 --> 00:39:16.190
it starts with just, you know, small relationships,

00:39:16.329 --> 00:39:19.469
you know, because, you know, I remember being

00:39:19.469 --> 00:39:23.409
overseas and, you know, seeing, you know, various

00:39:23.409 --> 00:39:25.869
different countries like the Romanians, you know,

00:39:25.889 --> 00:39:29.769
we worked with a lot more. And I, you know, Romania

00:39:29.769 --> 00:39:32.110
back when I was a kid was part of the Eastern

00:39:32.110 --> 00:39:35.250
Bloc. You know what I mean? And so and then now

00:39:35.250 --> 00:39:38.550
you have a U .S. and a Romanian soldier together

00:39:38.550 --> 00:39:41.030
and, you know, their their vehicles and all the

00:39:41.030 --> 00:39:43.190
rest of stuff. It was like, you know, and they

00:39:43.190 --> 00:39:46.090
talked about, you know, the the time before all

00:39:46.090 --> 00:39:48.449
the rest of stuff and and how we're all, you

00:39:48.449 --> 00:39:51.619
know, together now and doing it for the. for

00:39:51.619 --> 00:39:53.199
the greater good and all the rest of that stuff.

00:39:53.199 --> 00:39:55.719
I think it's amazing that, you know, it's, it's

00:39:55.719 --> 00:39:57.420
at that point right now, but you know, it's,

00:39:57.420 --> 00:39:59.260
and I still have a lot of those guys that are

00:39:59.260 --> 00:40:01.860
still on my Facebooks and, and we still converse

00:40:01.860 --> 00:40:04.119
and congratulate each other. Like I went through

00:40:04.119 --> 00:40:08.119
a career course with a Pakistan officer, you

00:40:08.119 --> 00:40:10.360
know what I mean? And, and he was probably one

00:40:10.360 --> 00:40:13.960
of the most gracious, kind individuals I've ever

00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:16.820
been around. You know what I mean? And so. um

00:40:16.820 --> 00:40:19.159
it's it's just developing those relationships

00:40:19.159 --> 00:40:21.480
because when it gets comes down to it when when

00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:23.019
something kicks off they're going to remember

00:40:23.019 --> 00:40:28.260
those relationships 100 well going back to kind

00:40:28.260 --> 00:40:32.139
of your journey into the career as you were progressing

00:40:32.139 --> 00:40:34.199
through the school ages were you thinking of

00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:35.840
law enforcement or was there something ahead

00:40:35.840 --> 00:40:41.480
of it yeah so it was kind of law enforcement

00:40:41.480 --> 00:40:45.269
was was in in the in the idea But I was primarily

00:40:45.269 --> 00:40:48.130
wanting to be a pilot, just like my father. He

00:40:48.130 --> 00:40:49.829
was an AWACS pilot, just like my grandfather,

00:40:50.030 --> 00:40:52.650
who was a P -38 pilot. And when I was in that

00:40:52.650 --> 00:40:54.869
JROTC, like I talked about before, I actually

00:40:54.869 --> 00:40:58.789
became one of the top cadets. And they actually

00:40:58.789 --> 00:41:02.510
gave me the ability to fly a real F -16 flight

00:41:02.510 --> 00:41:06.750
simulator in Ramstein. There was only two of

00:41:06.750 --> 00:41:08.849
us that were allowed to do it. And so we got

00:41:08.849 --> 00:41:10.670
in the cockpit, did our thing. The colonel went

00:41:10.670 --> 00:41:15.469
over a couple things. And, you know, and took

00:41:15.469 --> 00:41:18.849
off just fine, flying in the air, gave me the

00:41:18.849 --> 00:41:22.010
ability to shoot down a C5. And they gave me

00:41:22.010 --> 00:41:24.170
500 rounds and I went through 500 rounds just

00:41:24.170 --> 00:41:27.030
like that. And then I asked about missiles and

00:41:27.030 --> 00:41:28.750
they said, that's classified. You can't use it.

00:41:29.849 --> 00:41:36.869
So so then then they gave me the the the version

00:41:36.869 --> 00:41:39.630
or the concept of how to land the F -16. And

00:41:39.630 --> 00:41:41.699
I said. OK, so you have your heads up display.

00:41:41.820 --> 00:41:44.460
Right. And so this is going to get a little bit

00:41:44.460 --> 00:41:46.579
of crude here. But what they say is they, you

00:41:46.579 --> 00:41:49.940
know, let the let the egg, let the sperm eat

00:41:49.940 --> 00:41:52.920
the meat, the egg. And I'm like, what? And so

00:41:52.920 --> 00:41:57.079
they have two circles and one's got a tail. Right.

00:41:57.179 --> 00:41:59.659
And so what you do is you meet those two and

00:41:59.659 --> 00:42:01.820
that creates your flight path. Right. They come

00:42:01.820 --> 00:42:04.860
down and land. And I'm like, OK, I'm a senior

00:42:04.860 --> 00:42:06.599
in high school. I kind of get what you're talking

00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:10.010
about. Right. So. I do the flight path and I

00:42:10.010 --> 00:42:14.289
land just fine. And I get out of the cockpit

00:42:14.289 --> 00:42:16.949
and the instructor there looked at me and he

00:42:16.949 --> 00:42:19.630
goes, have you thought about being a pilot before?

00:42:19.829 --> 00:42:21.269
And I said, well, that's what I want to do. And

00:42:21.269 --> 00:42:24.230
he goes, you are born for it. I said, okay, well,

00:42:24.349 --> 00:42:27.909
it's obviously in the lineage, right? You know,

00:42:27.949 --> 00:42:29.570
I told you I went to University of Central Oklahoma,

00:42:29.670 --> 00:42:32.030
played soccer there. But I also was in the at

00:42:32.030 --> 00:42:34.530
University of Oklahoma and their ROTC program.

00:42:34.670 --> 00:42:37.650
So the Air Force ROTC. So what I did at the time

00:42:37.650 --> 00:42:39.650
is I was playing catch up. So I did two years

00:42:39.650 --> 00:42:42.969
within one and was straight A's. All the rest

00:42:42.969 --> 00:42:46.690
of the stuff did just fine. And then it was going

00:42:46.690 --> 00:42:49.449
into my junior year and they were doing a health

00:42:49.449 --> 00:42:52.570
evaluations on us. And because I was a dependent,

00:42:52.730 --> 00:42:56.460
I had dependent records. medical records and

00:42:56.460 --> 00:42:58.800
in those records i had an asthma attack when

00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:01.820
i was five years old and they just automatically

00:43:01.820 --> 00:43:06.099
disqualified me so you talk and this was right

00:43:06.099 --> 00:43:09.099
after the gulf war so you know there's no um

00:43:09.099 --> 00:43:11.360
they were not taking anybody with any type of

00:43:11.360 --> 00:43:14.719
respiratory issues that type of stuff so obviously

00:43:14.719 --> 00:43:18.559
in complete devastation um dream completely killed

00:43:18.559 --> 00:43:22.960
um i then decided that I still wanted to stay

00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:25.679
in uniform. I still want to serve. And a buddy

00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:27.539
of mine asked me, hey, do you want to work at

00:43:27.539 --> 00:43:29.699
the University Police Department as what they

00:43:29.699 --> 00:43:32.440
call a student officer? I said, absolutely. That'd

00:43:32.440 --> 00:43:34.119
be great. You know, junior year, I could make

00:43:34.119 --> 00:43:37.420
some money at the same time. And not very much,

00:43:37.619 --> 00:43:41.360
but you make some money. And so as I'm working

00:43:41.360 --> 00:43:43.420
there, I really, you know, began to love the

00:43:43.420 --> 00:43:46.019
job. I really got to see, you know, what the

00:43:46.019 --> 00:43:49.849
police do. And on a university level, but we

00:43:49.849 --> 00:43:53.329
also got to intermix with the local agency that

00:43:53.329 --> 00:43:56.710
I ended up working with long term wise. And we

00:43:56.710 --> 00:43:59.010
got to see him go on calls, deal with different

00:43:59.010 --> 00:44:00.909
issues, you know, work with the fire departments,

00:44:01.010 --> 00:44:03.010
all the ambulances, all the lights and sirens.

00:44:03.030 --> 00:44:06.989
Right. All the cool things. And so I decided

00:44:06.989 --> 00:44:09.050
that, you know, I'm going to I'm going to get

00:44:09.050 --> 00:44:11.690
a major in criminal justice. And right at that

00:44:11.690 --> 00:44:14.369
same point, my chief came up to me. I was 22

00:44:14.369 --> 00:44:16.599
years old. He came up to me and he goes, hey,

00:44:16.619 --> 00:44:19.139
Jeff, do you want to be a full time university

00:44:19.139 --> 00:44:21.539
police department, full time university police?

00:44:22.460 --> 00:44:26.800
And I told him, I said. I can do that because

00:44:26.800 --> 00:44:29.679
you can do that, I said, and he goes, I'll tell

00:44:29.679 --> 00:44:31.260
you what, if you say yes, I'll hire you right

00:44:31.260 --> 00:44:35.019
now. And I said, well, all right. So I took a

00:44:35.019 --> 00:44:36.940
full time job without any interviews, without

00:44:36.940 --> 00:44:42.059
anything at a university. And, you know, I took

00:44:42.059 --> 00:44:44.400
my MPIs, did all the things that you're supposed

00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:48.900
to do. But, you know, I went to the academy in

00:44:48.900 --> 00:44:53.860
1998 and was a full -time police officer August

00:44:53.860 --> 00:44:56.639
1st of 1997 there. And obviously I was a junior

00:44:56.639 --> 00:45:00.360
in college. And, you know, I went from a four

00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:02.000
-year plan to a six -year plan because I had

00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:03.860
to go through all the academy, the FTO, all the

00:45:03.860 --> 00:45:07.619
rest of that stuff. And so I did that, was there

00:45:07.619 --> 00:45:10.760
for a year. And then I left there and went to

00:45:10.760 --> 00:45:13.159
a city called Yukon, Oklahoma, which is the home

00:45:13.159 --> 00:45:17.119
of Garth Brooks. And went there and spent about

00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:19.940
three years there. And then eventually in November

00:45:19.940 --> 00:45:23.860
2001, moved up here to Edmond, Oklahoma and did

00:45:23.860 --> 00:45:27.380
my last 22 year. And just thoroughly enjoyed

00:45:27.380 --> 00:45:33.119
it. Love every bit of it. My boss called me the

00:45:33.119 --> 00:45:36.119
shit magnet. on the shift. And it was just, it

00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:38.480
was just one of those things where I loved getting

00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:40.960
involved in, in various different aspects within

00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:44.860
the job. I did several different things in the

00:45:44.860 --> 00:45:47.059
job, anything from SWAT to underwater search

00:45:47.059 --> 00:45:49.960
and recovery, field training officer, you know,

00:45:49.960 --> 00:45:53.500
critical incident, FBI negotiator, all the rest

00:45:53.500 --> 00:45:56.019
of that stuff. So it was, I loved my, I loved

00:45:56.019 --> 00:46:00.179
my career. And I'm glad that kind of God shifted

00:46:00.179 --> 00:46:03.360
me towards that. To be honest with you, I feel

00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:06.579
like that was my true calling. Even though I

00:46:06.579 --> 00:46:09.539
still get up and some Cessnas every once in a

00:46:09.539 --> 00:46:11.079
while with some buddies of mine and I fly around,

00:46:11.340 --> 00:46:15.460
I kind of get that itch. But I love the fact

00:46:15.460 --> 00:46:18.300
that I don that uniform and help just so many

00:46:18.300 --> 00:46:23.599
people in whatever situation they were in. You

00:46:23.599 --> 00:46:25.960
talked about doing the kind of the crisis intervention

00:46:25.960 --> 00:46:31.300
stuff. When we look now at all the kind of, you

00:46:31.300 --> 00:46:34.500
know, trials and tribulations that the profession

00:46:34.500 --> 00:46:36.380
of law enforcement has been dragged through,

00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:39.539
through the press, some justified, many unjustified,

00:46:39.579 --> 00:46:43.260
you know, the relationship with the community,

00:46:43.340 --> 00:46:46.360
the ability to de -escalate obviously are tools

00:46:46.360 --> 00:46:49.760
that a good officer would have. Talk to me about

00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:52.039
that through your eyes. I mean, you had a high

00:46:52.039 --> 00:46:53.920
level of training, you know, when it comes to

00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:56.750
this. What is the importance of this interpersonal

00:46:56.750 --> 00:47:00.349
skill when it comes to all areas of policing?

00:47:02.590 --> 00:47:09.489
You know, the mental health side, the critical

00:47:09.489 --> 00:47:14.690
incident side, or the crisis intervention, that

00:47:14.690 --> 00:47:17.590
really didn't come into place until probably

00:47:17.590 --> 00:47:21.969
about 10 or 12 years ago. I always look back

00:47:21.969 --> 00:47:25.980
at Ferguson. as in 2013, at least for the police

00:47:25.980 --> 00:47:33.380
world, as the tipping point or where we went

00:47:33.380 --> 00:47:37.039
a different direction. You know, when that happened

00:47:37.039 --> 00:47:41.320
in 2013, it was my experience that our policing

00:47:41.320 --> 00:47:44.559
changed. And it's called the Ferguson Effect.

00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:49.659
It's talked about everywhere. It is definitely

00:47:49.659 --> 00:47:52.389
acknowledged. at least within the police world.

00:47:53.309 --> 00:47:58.730
And I think from that really, it restricted us

00:47:58.730 --> 00:48:02.690
in doing what we were really truly meant to do

00:48:02.690 --> 00:48:06.769
and proactive policing, right? So that takes

00:48:06.769 --> 00:48:09.030
a toll on you. You know what I mean? So you're

00:48:09.030 --> 00:48:12.530
wanting to do all these good things and you have

00:48:12.530 --> 00:48:14.929
the ability, you have the talents, you have the

00:48:14.929 --> 00:48:16.670
training, all the rest of the stuff, you have

00:48:16.670 --> 00:48:19.389
the tools in your tool belt. And now you're told

00:48:19.389 --> 00:48:23.710
you can't use a third of them, a fourth of them,

00:48:23.730 --> 00:48:25.929
whatever it is, because of X, Y, Z, because of

00:48:25.929 --> 00:48:29.949
how it looks, whatever studies out there, all

00:48:29.949 --> 00:48:32.289
the rest of that stuff. Right. So, you know,

00:48:32.289 --> 00:48:34.829
I think that's where the turning point and and

00:48:34.829 --> 00:48:37.849
on the on the crisis intervention side, you know,

00:48:37.889 --> 00:48:40.929
we didn't get our CIT tabs probably. And that's

00:48:40.929 --> 00:48:42.730
a 40 hour course that we all go through. But

00:48:42.730 --> 00:48:47.500
that's actually to. evaluate the consumer, which

00:48:47.500 --> 00:48:50.579
is those that you're in front of on domestic

00:48:50.579 --> 00:48:53.699
calls, on mental health calls, whatever those

00:48:53.699 --> 00:48:56.639
behavioral health calls are, right? So you're

00:48:56.639 --> 00:49:02.019
actually evaluating your community, right? And

00:49:02.019 --> 00:49:06.880
what I didn't see until about 2021 in our own

00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:10.480
agency was we were not looking at ourselves.

00:49:11.980 --> 00:49:15.440
We were not evaluating ourselves. We were not.

00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:20.059
We were not going, all right, Jeff, you just

00:49:20.059 --> 00:49:24.460
saw a massive, nasty fatality accident that involved

00:49:24.460 --> 00:49:29.139
child, whatever it is. Right. So back then it

00:49:29.139 --> 00:49:32.219
was all right. Put it in that little compartment,

00:49:32.380 --> 00:49:35.519
suck it up and show back up the next day. Right.

00:49:35.739 --> 00:49:40.690
So and that's that has started to change. you

00:49:40.690 --> 00:49:43.550
know, at least for my agency in 2021. Now I know

00:49:43.550 --> 00:49:46.110
others have done some a little bit before that.

00:49:47.090 --> 00:49:50.730
But I think on the health side, we focus so much

00:49:50.730 --> 00:49:55.489
on the community's mental health. And training

00:49:55.489 --> 00:49:59.429
and getting them, you know, ED or emergency detained

00:49:59.429 --> 00:50:02.050
and getting them in the facilities, you know,

00:50:02.070 --> 00:50:04.150
based off whether they have insurance, they don't

00:50:04.150 --> 00:50:06.630
have insurance. What's the best facility? Are

00:50:06.630 --> 00:50:08.710
they going to be inpatient, outpatient, whatever

00:50:08.710 --> 00:50:10.769
you call it, right? We were so focused on the

00:50:10.769 --> 00:50:13.190
community, which don't get me wrong. That's what

00:50:13.190 --> 00:50:14.869
we're supposed to do, right? That's our job.

00:50:14.869 --> 00:50:17.670
That's in our job description. But what we failed

00:50:17.670 --> 00:50:20.829
to do in the meantime, and for a long time, is

00:50:20.829 --> 00:50:23.659
we failed to look at our own selves. We failed

00:50:23.659 --> 00:50:27.500
to look at those that we're in charge of. We

00:50:27.500 --> 00:50:29.659
failed to look at our left and right brother

00:50:29.659 --> 00:50:35.039
and sister. We failed to look from top down and

00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:38.219
even even lateral. You know, we failed to look

00:50:38.219 --> 00:50:41.920
at, you know, how are we doing when we when we

00:50:41.920 --> 00:50:44.719
show up that day? You know, is there is there

00:50:44.719 --> 00:50:47.019
stuff going on in the workplace or in your on

00:50:47.019 --> 00:50:48.920
your family side that's preventing you to be

00:50:48.920 --> 00:50:51.780
100 percent within your department? You know,

00:50:51.800 --> 00:50:54.679
what does your finances look like? You know,

00:50:54.679 --> 00:50:58.059
are you so far in debt that you are working every

00:50:58.059 --> 00:51:01.000
extra job in the world to where when you actually

00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:03.900
show up for your real job, you're so damn tired,

00:51:04.139 --> 00:51:08.760
you can't even be there, right? So we were killing

00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:13.619
ourselves because our focus was on the community.

00:51:13.900 --> 00:51:16.179
And I get that. I understand that. But I think

00:51:16.179 --> 00:51:19.119
we're starting to come around a little bit on,

00:51:19.300 --> 00:51:22.519
at least here in Oklahoma, on trying to mitigate

00:51:22.519 --> 00:51:26.260
that and really put a focus on it. It's interesting

00:51:26.260 --> 00:51:29.500
that you say the Ferguson effect because I sadly

00:51:29.500 --> 00:51:32.599
personally experienced a horrendous incident

00:51:32.599 --> 00:51:35.780
with my son in middle school. He was going through

00:51:35.780 --> 00:51:39.360
some stuff. He was seeing a counselor. At that

00:51:39.360 --> 00:51:42.179
time when he was with his mother, there was kind

00:51:42.179 --> 00:51:44.320
of a tumultuous relationship in that household.

00:51:44.659 --> 00:51:46.760
Many times I'd pick him up because he'd be in

00:51:46.760 --> 00:51:48.320
tears. He was going through some shit. He's a

00:51:48.320 --> 00:51:51.500
little boy. The school is aware of it. He's got

00:51:51.500 --> 00:51:53.960
counseling going on. And then I'm driving home

00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:56.619
one day, very long story short. He normally calls

00:51:56.619 --> 00:51:58.980
me when he's, you know, lets me know he's getting

00:51:58.980 --> 00:52:00.920
on the bus and lets me know he's got home safely.

00:52:01.440 --> 00:52:05.119
I didn't get a call. So I call and he answers

00:52:05.119 --> 00:52:07.300
the phone. He goes, oh, the principal wants to

00:52:07.300 --> 00:52:09.579
speak to you. I'm like, okay, what's going on?

00:52:09.659 --> 00:52:12.320
Oh, you know, he's had an incident. We're not

00:52:12.320 --> 00:52:14.099
sure what we're going to do yet. We'll let you

00:52:14.099 --> 00:52:16.760
know. So I'm like, okay. So I keep going towards

00:52:16.760 --> 00:52:19.760
the school. And don't hear anything. And I call

00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:22.199
and they're like, oh, yeah, he's been Baker Act.

00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:24.920
He's been sent to the local holding facility.

00:52:25.260 --> 00:52:28.900
Yeah. So I'm, you know, firstly, so zero communication

00:52:28.900 --> 00:52:32.539
with the family. The only way I knew is because

00:52:32.539 --> 00:52:35.260
I was chasing up where the fuck is my son. So

00:52:35.260 --> 00:52:40.300
it turns out that he was upset. And the principal

00:52:40.300 --> 00:52:44.099
and the SRO, end of the day, basically, they

00:52:44.099 --> 00:52:47.760
just wanted to go home. And so they did a 5150

00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:50.300
on him for being upset. It literally is what

00:52:50.300 --> 00:52:52.179
it was. He was upset in the classroom, getting

00:52:52.179 --> 00:52:55.119
some, you know, intrusive thoughts that the counselor

00:52:55.119 --> 00:52:58.159
said are normal for children of that age. And

00:52:58.159 --> 00:53:00.920
so anyway, they do an evaluation. Of course,

00:53:00.940 --> 00:53:03.460
he's fine. But I mean, you can imagine that sends

00:53:03.460 --> 00:53:05.559
me on a fucking tirade to find out what's going

00:53:05.559 --> 00:53:08.619
on. Well, while he's there, literally in the

00:53:08.619 --> 00:53:11.900
72 hours, I think five or six kids from the same

00:53:11.900 --> 00:53:14.849
school cycle through. Now, I was a firefighter

00:53:14.849 --> 00:53:17.110
for 14 years. I can count a number of Baker Acts

00:53:17.110 --> 00:53:20.369
on one hand. And they were either bona fide suicide

00:53:20.369 --> 00:53:23.429
attempts or people are going to hurt someone

00:53:23.429 --> 00:53:26.510
else. And you've got the same that I have my

00:53:26.510 --> 00:53:29.769
whole career in 72 hours of kids that are 8,

00:53:29.789 --> 00:53:33.989
9, 10. So anyway, but then when I dive in deeper,

00:53:34.070 --> 00:53:36.110
it's a statewide issue. And it was Parkland.

00:53:36.409 --> 00:53:38.670
After Parkland, just like you said with Ferguson,

00:53:38.750 --> 00:53:41.230
there's this massive knee jerk. And the schools

00:53:41.230 --> 00:53:44.860
are like, well, just send everyone. But what

00:53:44.860 --> 00:53:47.079
was really sickening in that event is I went

00:53:47.079 --> 00:53:49.599
to the school, I pulled all the records from

00:53:49.599 --> 00:53:52.500
PD, and there were hundreds of baker acts for

00:53:52.500 --> 00:53:55.860
these children in the county. And the school

00:53:55.860 --> 00:53:58.320
blamed the cops and the cops blamed the school.

00:53:58.519 --> 00:54:01.079
Not a single person had a fucking backbone to

00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:03.300
say, we were wrong, this needs to be changed.

00:54:03.500 --> 00:54:06.340
But there was kind of the wheels turning already

00:54:06.340 --> 00:54:09.440
statewide and they changed the policy. And now

00:54:09.440 --> 00:54:11.659
if those two had done what they did, they'd be

00:54:11.659 --> 00:54:13.699
in prison. Because that's basically kidnapping

00:54:13.699 --> 00:54:17.000
a child. And they had great protocols in place.

00:54:17.239 --> 00:54:20.159
If you're even in doubt, the people from that

00:54:20.159 --> 00:54:22.340
facility come, they evaluate the child, they

00:54:22.340 --> 00:54:25.320
deescalate. And then, you know, in this case,

00:54:25.380 --> 00:54:27.719
my son would go home with me. That's it, done.

00:54:28.440 --> 00:54:30.760
So, you know, so it's funny because you say that.

00:54:30.820 --> 00:54:33.380
We have such a kind of pendulum swing at the

00:54:33.380 --> 00:54:36.480
moment. One thing happens, which was horrendous,

00:54:36.480 --> 00:54:38.860
don't get me wrong, in both cases. And now everyone

00:54:38.860 --> 00:54:41.119
else has to pay it all the way on the other extreme.

00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:44.300
The thing I've said with your community, and

00:54:44.300 --> 00:54:47.920
I've made this observation so many times, when

00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:50.179
mistakes are made and they're the gray area ones,

00:54:50.360 --> 00:54:52.579
not the officer was 100 % right and it's just

00:54:52.579 --> 00:54:55.639
the media being out of place or the officer was

00:54:55.639 --> 00:54:58.619
100 % wrong, but everything in between. When

00:54:58.619 --> 00:55:00.840
did that police officer sleep last? Have they

00:55:00.840 --> 00:55:03.480
been forced into a second shift? Like you said,

00:55:03.559 --> 00:55:05.099
how much are they getting paid? Are they having

00:55:05.099 --> 00:55:08.559
to work extra jobs because they can't even make

00:55:08.559 --> 00:55:10.300
ends meet because the city or county doesn't

00:55:10.300 --> 00:55:12.420
pay them properly? What's their level of training?

00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:15.289
Is there a fitness standard? That is how you

00:55:15.289 --> 00:55:18.889
increase the service to the community is you

00:55:18.889 --> 00:55:21.070
create physical and mental health in the people

00:55:21.070 --> 00:55:23.590
who are protecting them. And that then will pay

00:55:23.590 --> 00:55:26.010
forward to a higher level of service and a higher

00:55:26.010 --> 00:55:30.389
level of relationships with the community. Yeah,

00:55:30.389 --> 00:55:32.909
James, you're absolutely right. You know, and

00:55:32.909 --> 00:55:36.070
even even after Ferguson, I'm sorry, after the

00:55:36.070 --> 00:55:39.570
George Floyd incident, you know, you saw just

00:55:39.570 --> 00:55:42.719
another ramping up. of all that, you know what

00:55:42.719 --> 00:55:45.659
I mean? So you have Ferguson coupled with, you

00:55:45.659 --> 00:55:48.340
know, the George Floyd incident and all the destruction

00:55:48.340 --> 00:55:52.579
that happened after that, you know. I'm a big

00:55:52.579 --> 00:55:55.760
advocate, you know, and I'm 50 next month or

00:55:55.760 --> 00:56:00.420
next week. And I'm a big advocate that if you

00:56:00.420 --> 00:56:03.440
are not physically, spiritually, and mentally

00:56:03.440 --> 00:56:07.400
tuned up, then you are not going to show up 100%.

00:56:08.679 --> 00:56:11.019
You know, and when we don't have the standards

00:56:11.019 --> 00:56:14.579
that are there within our agencies to ensure

00:56:14.579 --> 00:56:17.960
that we have that, then we are going to get 20,

00:56:18.159 --> 00:56:24.719
30, 40 percent of our ability. And I always fought

00:56:24.719 --> 00:56:27.619
I always fought our agency on why we don't have

00:56:27.619 --> 00:56:31.500
a a physical fitness yearly standard. Now, we

00:56:31.500 --> 00:56:35.579
did on the SWAT team. OK, but that's it. And

00:56:35.579 --> 00:56:40.460
even that started getting a little inky, right?

00:56:41.900 --> 00:56:44.079
And it was because a lot of the guys that were

00:56:44.079 --> 00:56:47.380
kind of in the upper echelon couldn't perform

00:56:47.380 --> 00:56:51.199
it. And so they started to tailor it down to

00:56:51.199 --> 00:56:55.480
meet their needs. You know what I mean? So, you

00:56:55.480 --> 00:56:59.820
know, and that's where I think, and I had this

00:56:59.820 --> 00:57:02.940
long conversation with a couple of guys and I

00:57:02.940 --> 00:57:05.559
said, why don't we? why don't we have an athlete

00:57:05.559 --> 00:57:09.260
program for first responders? You know, you have

00:57:09.260 --> 00:57:12.760
all these, these NFL guys and these MLB guys

00:57:12.760 --> 00:57:14.000
and all the rest of this stuff. And I understand

00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:16.579
money. I got it. Eight agencies got, you know,

00:57:16.619 --> 00:57:18.039
different budgets and all the rest of this stuff.

00:57:18.320 --> 00:57:21.820
But why don't we have some sort of athlete program

00:57:21.820 --> 00:57:25.579
that, you know, you have these big supplement,

00:57:25.699 --> 00:57:28.900
you know, and all the rest of this stuff that

00:57:28.900 --> 00:57:31.719
could literally back this stuff, you know, powered

00:57:31.719 --> 00:57:35.019
by whatever it is, right? You have Rogue and

00:57:35.019 --> 00:57:37.059
you have all these other big weightlifting, all

00:57:37.059 --> 00:57:42.199
of it. Why are we not instilling an athlete mindset

00:57:42.199 --> 00:57:46.440
in our first responders, right? Because they

00:57:46.440 --> 00:57:50.599
have to perform from zero to 100 within a second

00:57:50.599 --> 00:57:54.340
sometimes, right? And so like for us, you know,

00:57:54.360 --> 00:57:56.920
we talked about, All right, you're in your car,

00:57:57.039 --> 00:57:59.920
especially as a training officer. All right,

00:57:59.940 --> 00:58:03.360
you're in a car and you get in a pursuit or you

00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:05.800
have something happen and it's right in front

00:58:05.800 --> 00:58:08.079
of you. You've got to jump out of your car and

00:58:08.079 --> 00:58:11.219
you've got to haul ass. Are you going to be able

00:58:11.219 --> 00:58:13.099
to take that 40 pounds that you have on you,

00:58:13.139 --> 00:58:16.079
be able to jump fences, all the rest of that

00:58:16.079 --> 00:58:18.579
stuff? And then once you get that person in custody,

00:58:18.699 --> 00:58:22.619
are you going to be so tired that you can't put

00:58:22.619 --> 00:58:26.699
that person into custody correctly? Because your

00:58:26.699 --> 00:58:30.380
mind is going to go because it's tired. It's

00:58:30.380 --> 00:58:32.800
going to shut down, right? But if you're not

00:58:32.800 --> 00:58:35.079
training that, if you're not training that aspect

00:58:35.079 --> 00:58:37.760
from the academy all the way on and keeping that

00:58:37.760 --> 00:58:40.139
standard, then all you're doing is you're opening

00:58:40.139 --> 00:58:43.440
yourself up for litigation. And litigation is

00:58:43.440 --> 00:58:44.920
not really the important part, but it's your

00:58:44.920 --> 00:58:48.280
own safety. And it's the safety of your brothers

00:58:48.280 --> 00:58:50.320
and sisters to your left and right, right? So,

00:58:50.320 --> 00:58:55.190
you know, I was a... And I still am very, very

00:58:55.190 --> 00:58:57.730
active in my gym, all functional fitness type

00:58:57.730 --> 00:59:00.550
stuff. You know, I stay in it. And I've been

00:59:00.550 --> 00:59:02.769
out of the game for a year and a couple months.

00:59:03.269 --> 00:59:07.809
You know what I mean? But age has no – it doesn't

00:59:07.809 --> 00:59:10.210
matter. But I think what happens is agencies

00:59:10.210 --> 00:59:15.369
are just scared to do it because maybe the quality

00:59:15.369 --> 00:59:17.230
of the people that they have within their agency

00:59:17.230 --> 00:59:20.929
isn't going to be able to meet that standard.

00:59:21.579 --> 00:59:23.480
You know what I mean? And so, you know, they

00:59:23.480 --> 00:59:27.340
got to perform a service. But at the same time,

00:59:27.360 --> 00:59:32.920
they're not given 100 % in that service. The

00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:35.460
thing that's crazy in the fire service, and I've

00:59:35.460 --> 00:59:37.860
said this, I mean, hundreds of times now, but

00:59:37.860 --> 00:59:41.579
the name of the certification that you get to

00:59:41.579 --> 00:59:44.860
be a firefighter in Florida, the name is minimum

00:59:44.860 --> 00:59:48.159
standards. and they i love that they named it

00:59:48.159 --> 00:59:50.840
that that is the shittiest you should be your

00:59:50.840 --> 00:59:52.719
entire career and i'm just like you i'm just

00:59:52.719 --> 00:59:55.480
turned 51 i'm still in the gym i'm still able

00:59:55.480 --> 00:59:57.699
to do what you know we're supposed to do in fact

00:59:57.699 --> 00:59:59.880
the combat challenge is one of our entry tests

00:59:59.880 --> 01:00:02.380
i did it just i think it was three years ago

01:00:02.380 --> 01:00:06.159
now and you know great great time still at my

01:00:06.159 --> 01:00:08.400
age so i agree with you that don't you don't

01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:10.159
need a taper because if you're doing yeah if

01:00:10.159 --> 01:00:13.019
you're doing like you know max deadlift and jump

01:00:13.019 --> 01:00:16.369
tests and you know 100 meter sprints then maybe,

01:00:16.550 --> 01:00:19.329
but we're not doing that. Like in the fire, you

01:00:19.329 --> 01:00:21.829
can literally put a sequence of events like we

01:00:21.829 --> 01:00:24.150
do in the combat challenge, the fire sled, there's

01:00:24.150 --> 01:00:28.090
got one now. And so you're moving a hose, a ladder,

01:00:28.250 --> 01:00:30.289
a person, you're climbing with the things that

01:00:30.289 --> 01:00:32.710
you would actually be wearing or holding. So

01:00:32.710 --> 01:00:35.210
you can't say it's not fair. You were held to

01:00:35.210 --> 01:00:38.969
that standard at day one. But just like you alluded

01:00:38.969 --> 01:00:43.150
to, what I have seen, not all places, but a lot.

01:00:43.630 --> 01:00:46.650
is the the union leadership in a lot of places

01:00:46.650 --> 01:00:49.849
they're scared of failing it so they're like

01:00:49.849 --> 01:00:51.809
well let's just oppose it they're trying to take

01:00:51.809 --> 01:00:55.710
our jobs instead of saying well i i should own

01:00:55.710 --> 01:00:57.869
it because i knew what to expect because it was

01:00:57.869 --> 01:01:00.989
given to me on day one this is what you need

01:01:00.989 --> 01:01:03.469
to be able to do to be a firefighter and then

01:01:03.469 --> 01:01:06.309
to oppose that within the profession in law enforcement

01:01:06.309 --> 01:01:09.289
and fire and i would argue even ems because medics

01:01:09.289 --> 01:01:12.159
have to move people around too That is a complete

01:01:12.159 --> 01:01:15.679
spit in the face to the profession itself and

01:01:15.679 --> 01:01:19.039
the people that we serve. Yeah, absolutely. I

01:01:19.039 --> 01:01:23.739
mean, I never thought, you know, I always had

01:01:23.739 --> 01:01:26.699
this idea when I was a kid that, you know, cops

01:01:26.699 --> 01:01:28.500
are here, firefighters are here, all the rest

01:01:28.500 --> 01:01:31.820
of that stuff. And as I went through my career,

01:01:32.519 --> 01:01:34.920
you know, and I get it, you know, small towns,

01:01:34.980 --> 01:01:36.760
all the rest of that stuff. But as I went through

01:01:36.760 --> 01:01:43.340
my career, I started seeing, you know, The. The

01:01:43.340 --> 01:01:46.960
bodies, the type of the type of individuals that

01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:51.659
were in those those those positions. And I go,

01:01:51.760 --> 01:01:53.880
how in the world are they able to do X, Y, Z?

01:01:55.079 --> 01:02:00.380
And to do it well. Right. So I just I've never

01:02:00.380 --> 01:02:03.119
understood it. It's been a personal thing for

01:02:03.119 --> 01:02:06.159
me that I would never be in a situation where

01:02:06.159 --> 01:02:09.639
I couldn't handle myself. And it's just because

01:02:09.639 --> 01:02:11.599
I had the love for my brothers and sisters on

01:02:11.599 --> 01:02:14.460
my left and right. You know what I mean? And

01:02:14.460 --> 01:02:19.760
even even as as moving on up, I just I never

01:02:19.760 --> 01:02:24.440
wanted to succumb to, hey, I'm up here. I don't

01:02:24.440 --> 01:02:27.019
have to do it. You guys need to do it. Right.

01:02:27.179 --> 01:02:31.460
So I that's that was never a thing for me. I

01:02:31.460 --> 01:02:35.019
never liked that. And so I just the mentality

01:02:35.019 --> 01:02:38.780
has to change. And it's and it's been said to

01:02:38.780 --> 01:02:42.480
do this change for so long. And it's and it just

01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:45.280
it never happens. And I think a lot of it has

01:02:45.280 --> 01:02:47.159
to do with that leadership that doesn't want

01:02:47.159 --> 01:02:49.500
it. They don't want to take accountability on

01:02:49.500 --> 01:02:54.199
themselves. Right. So those those deputy chiefs,

01:02:54.199 --> 01:02:56.320
those majors, those captains, unfortunately,

01:02:56.619 --> 01:02:59.940
have put themselves in dire straits to where

01:02:59.940 --> 01:03:04.179
they can't perform it. They don't do it. And

01:03:04.179 --> 01:03:06.360
so they don't make it a policy. They don't implement

01:03:06.360 --> 01:03:09.440
it within a union. You know, I can, I can think

01:03:09.440 --> 01:03:11.719
of union presidents right now that probably couldn't

01:03:11.719 --> 01:03:14.159
run a hundred yards right now, you know, and

01:03:14.159 --> 01:03:16.599
it's just, it's just, they don't want to do that.

01:03:16.639 --> 01:03:18.880
You know, they it's because then it would hold

01:03:18.880 --> 01:03:22.980
themselves accountable. Absolutely. Have you

01:03:22.980 --> 01:03:26.159
crossed paths with Danny Long? that has the Oklahoma

01:03:26.159 --> 01:03:28.739
State. I mean, that in itself, you got to, you

01:03:28.739 --> 01:03:30.320
know, someone who just takes it upon himself

01:03:30.320 --> 01:03:31.780
to say, all right, we're going to be part of

01:03:31.780 --> 01:03:34.059
the solution. And I think that's amazing. You're

01:03:34.059 --> 01:03:35.699
getting these people that are pushing back now

01:03:35.699 --> 01:03:38.300
and saying no. And I think when we turn this

01:03:38.300 --> 01:03:40.820
recruitment crisis around and really attract,

01:03:41.139 --> 01:03:43.400
you know, the amount of young people that we're

01:03:43.400 --> 01:03:46.079
used to in our professions. you can now put that

01:03:46.079 --> 01:03:48.539
bar up and then say from day one, all right,

01:03:48.539 --> 01:03:50.159
now we are going to require a fitness standard

01:03:50.159 --> 01:03:52.639
and we're going to slowly pull everyone else

01:03:52.639 --> 01:03:55.920
in who's already on the field. But a lot of people

01:03:55.920 --> 01:03:59.480
that I've had on the show kind of push back on

01:03:59.480 --> 01:04:01.440
that, oh, kids today, they're lazy, they don't

01:04:01.440 --> 01:04:02.599
want to work. They're like, that's bullshit.

01:04:02.739 --> 01:04:05.710
Like the fit candidates that we get. are really

01:04:05.710 --> 01:04:07.929
fit these days because they've got like you said

01:04:07.929 --> 01:04:10.469
functional fitness and mud runs and you know

01:04:10.469 --> 01:04:12.170
all these these different things that we just

01:04:12.170 --> 01:04:14.409
didn't have when we were you know young recruits

01:04:14.409 --> 01:04:17.449
so i think it's a beautiful exciting time but

01:04:17.449 --> 01:04:19.630
we have to drag these people that are opposing

01:04:19.630 --> 01:04:22.349
out the shadows and say look you know you got

01:04:22.349 --> 01:04:25.090
two choices get your ass back into shape or step

01:04:25.090 --> 01:04:28.969
aside that's it but don't to condemn police officers

01:04:28.969 --> 01:04:32.230
and firefighters and paramedics to poor performance

01:04:32.230 --> 01:04:34.610
and a much shorter lifespan because you don't

01:04:34.610 --> 01:04:36.769
have the balls to actually... Because think about

01:04:36.769 --> 01:04:38.829
it. What is it really? It's a fear of getting

01:04:38.829 --> 01:04:40.829
tired. Someone said that to me on the show once.

01:04:40.909 --> 01:04:43.150
That's it. If you don't want to exercise, you're

01:04:43.150 --> 01:04:45.050
scared of being tired. Well, if you're scared

01:04:45.050 --> 01:04:46.610
of being tired, why the hell are you wearing

01:04:46.610 --> 01:04:49.190
a first responders uniform where lies depend

01:04:49.190 --> 01:04:52.940
on you? Yeah. Yeah. And a couple of multiple

01:04:52.940 --> 01:04:54.699
points that you're talking about there, James.

01:04:54.780 --> 01:04:57.320
So I was having a great conversation with with

01:04:57.320 --> 01:05:00.820
a group of individuals. And I said, I remember

01:05:00.820 --> 01:05:04.099
when I first was was hired on in 2001 here in

01:05:04.099 --> 01:05:08.840
Edmond, they asked me what sport I played. And

01:05:08.840 --> 01:05:10.940
I was kind of curious of why they asked that.

01:05:11.789 --> 01:05:14.590
Well, then as we're going through and we're,

01:05:14.590 --> 01:05:18.010
you know, going into, you know, 2009, 10, 11

01:05:18.010 --> 01:05:20.250
timeframe, and even into Ferguson, I started

01:05:20.250 --> 01:05:25.670
seeing our recruits come in different. And I

01:05:25.670 --> 01:05:29.730
think what's happened is because of the social

01:05:29.730 --> 01:05:32.670
stuff that's going on right now, you know, they,

01:05:32.769 --> 01:05:34.829
they've got to, they've got to be just super

01:05:34.829 --> 01:05:37.110
clean. You know, they've got to, you know, they,

01:05:37.190 --> 01:05:39.610
they can't do anything wrong. And just because

01:05:39.610 --> 01:05:43.159
they're so worried about. you know, X, Y, Z happening

01:05:43.159 --> 01:05:45.980
or whatever it is. They failed to go after the

01:05:45.980 --> 01:05:48.340
people that understand team concepts. And that

01:05:48.340 --> 01:05:53.300
would be athletes. Athletes know how to work

01:05:53.300 --> 01:05:55.840
as a team. They understand accountability and

01:05:55.840 --> 01:05:57.920
they're going to keep themselves physically fit.

01:05:59.500 --> 01:06:03.960
Right. So, and, and I, I just, I, we, I have

01:06:03.960 --> 01:06:07.119
seen that. I saw that happen probably the last

01:06:07.119 --> 01:06:09.579
10 or 12 years where we've gotten away from.

01:06:10.400 --> 01:06:13.059
You know, actually actively going and going to

01:06:13.059 --> 01:06:16.179
high schools and recruiting wrestlers, you know,

01:06:16.179 --> 01:06:18.599
recruiting football players, all the wrestlers,

01:06:18.659 --> 01:06:21.300
those people that understand, you know, whether

01:06:21.300 --> 01:06:23.199
they're golfers or whatever, it doesn't matter,

01:06:23.300 --> 01:06:25.219
you know, whether they're in their physically

01:06:25.219 --> 01:06:29.219
fit, they understand team concept and they hold

01:06:29.219 --> 01:06:32.900
each other accountable. Right. And so we've gotten

01:06:32.900 --> 01:06:35.099
away from that because they need the college

01:06:35.099 --> 01:06:38.659
degree or they have to have such a clean background.

01:06:39.449 --> 01:06:41.889
uh, that they can't, they have to come in because

01:06:41.889 --> 01:06:45.469
God forbid, you know, that they did XYZ back

01:06:45.469 --> 01:06:48.869
when they were, you know, 18, 19 years old. Right.

01:06:49.150 --> 01:06:51.829
So, and in my sense, I'll be honest with you,

01:06:51.929 --> 01:06:55.050
James, I was not a clean guy when I came through

01:06:55.050 --> 01:06:57.889
as a, as a, as a juvenile. I mean, I stole a

01:06:57.889 --> 01:07:00.730
car. I did all kinds of crazy, stupid shit. And

01:07:00.730 --> 01:07:02.590
I told him that in my polygraph and they were

01:07:02.590 --> 01:07:05.619
like, wow. Okay. And I said, yeah. But you know

01:07:05.619 --> 01:07:07.619
what? It made me a better cop because I could

01:07:07.619 --> 01:07:09.440
see all through the bullshit that you would come

01:07:09.440 --> 01:07:13.320
across on the street. Right. So it was just one

01:07:13.320 --> 01:07:15.400
of those things where we have gotten just so

01:07:15.400 --> 01:07:18.900
away from that. And we just so hyper focused

01:07:18.900 --> 01:07:22.039
that we've got to recheck ourselves and go, hey,

01:07:22.079 --> 01:07:23.900
listen, we need to go after people who have real

01:07:23.900 --> 01:07:27.019
life experience, who have been athletes, understand

01:07:27.019 --> 01:07:30.340
the concept of being an athlete and then get

01:07:30.340 --> 01:07:34.610
out there and, you know. do the good things that

01:07:34.610 --> 01:07:37.570
we're supposed to do. And there was another part

01:07:37.570 --> 01:07:38.710
that you were talking about there and I just

01:07:38.710 --> 01:07:41.590
lost it. But I just, I feel like that on the

01:07:41.590 --> 01:07:44.530
recruiting side of the house, that means that

01:07:44.530 --> 01:07:47.590
focus needs to kind of go back to that, that

01:07:47.590 --> 01:07:50.889
world. I've seen a little bit of it happening

01:07:50.889 --> 01:07:54.610
right now. We're, you know, we're at least my

01:07:54.610 --> 01:07:57.550
agency, they just posted a deal where several

01:07:57.550 --> 01:08:02.280
of our guys are prior D1, D2 wrestlers. And they're

01:08:02.280 --> 01:08:04.280
out there at, you know, University of Central

01:08:04.280 --> 01:08:06.820
Oklahoma, University of Oklahoma, Oklahoma State,

01:08:06.940 --> 01:08:08.639
you know, all those guys recruiting those types

01:08:08.639 --> 01:08:11.980
of individuals to come into our world. You know

01:08:11.980 --> 01:08:14.340
what I mean? And if they have the heart for it

01:08:14.340 --> 01:08:16.420
and the desire to do it. And, you know, those

01:08:16.420 --> 01:08:19.000
are the types of people I believe that you want.

01:08:19.079 --> 01:08:21.579
But here's the thing. Some people are scared

01:08:21.579 --> 01:08:25.300
of that because they're scared of the egos. You

01:08:25.300 --> 01:08:27.279
know, they're scared of, you know, what these

01:08:27.279 --> 01:08:31.460
guys are going to bring into the academies. And

01:08:31.460 --> 01:08:33.640
I'm like, well, listen, man, this is an A -type

01:08:33.640 --> 01:08:37.460
personality type of, you know, world that we're

01:08:37.460 --> 01:08:40.300
in, that we have to live in. I would much rather

01:08:40.300 --> 01:08:43.520
reign somebody back than how to try to kick somebody

01:08:43.520 --> 01:08:46.659
in the ass 17 times just to figure out how to

01:08:46.659 --> 01:08:49.560
shoot a freaking gun. You know what I mean? So

01:08:49.560 --> 01:08:54.220
it's just, it's that type of concept that I think

01:08:54.220 --> 01:08:57.159
we've got to get back to. Well, it's funny because

01:08:57.159 --> 01:09:00.149
if you look at... I've always said this, the

01:09:00.149 --> 01:09:02.689
real tough guys, the wrestlers, you know, the

01:09:02.689 --> 01:09:05.010
other martial artists, the ones that are great

01:09:05.010 --> 01:09:08.170
shooters, they're some of the nicest people you'll

01:09:08.170 --> 01:09:10.670
ever meet. So actually your dangerous egos are

01:09:10.670 --> 01:09:12.270
the people that aren't sure of themselves. And

01:09:12.270 --> 01:09:14.250
we all know that, the little Napoleons that are

01:09:14.250 --> 01:09:17.229
running around there. But when you talked about

01:09:17.229 --> 01:09:19.590
earlier, the MMPI, I've had this conversation

01:09:19.590 --> 01:09:23.090
a lot. That was never meant to even be a standalone

01:09:23.090 --> 01:09:25.670
test. And we use that for screening. Polygraph,

01:09:25.890 --> 01:09:27.710
you know, I'll give you a funny story and people

01:09:27.710 --> 01:09:30.000
listening, regularly i probably heard this before

01:09:30.000 --> 01:09:34.260
so i apologize very first test i ever pre -test

01:09:34.260 --> 01:09:36.720
that i ever did was a kind of collaborative one

01:09:36.720 --> 01:09:39.140
they did here in south florida and you do this

01:09:39.140 --> 01:09:42.039
one test and then they give your results to all

01:09:42.039 --> 01:09:45.819
these agencies and miami beach were there one

01:09:45.819 --> 01:09:48.039
of the lieutenants and they had these pre -apps

01:09:48.039 --> 01:09:49.800
so we filled it in and i'm like you know naive

01:09:50.510 --> 01:09:52.409
fresh off the boat Englishman. I'm like, well,

01:09:52.409 --> 01:09:54.649
honesty is important. So let me say about years

01:09:54.649 --> 01:09:57.869
ago when I did this drug where you dance a lot

01:09:57.869 --> 01:10:00.069
and hug a lot of strangers. But that was a long

01:10:00.069 --> 01:10:02.550
time ago. He screwed it up and threw it at me.

01:10:03.329 --> 01:10:06.710
And I was like, oh, so you've got to lie about

01:10:06.710 --> 01:10:09.350
your past to be a first responder. Got it. Lied

01:10:09.350 --> 01:10:11.810
my way through three polygraphs. And again, ironically,

01:10:12.010 --> 01:10:14.409
the things that I did back then are now the things

01:10:14.409 --> 01:10:16.130
that we're seeing are helping first responders

01:10:16.130 --> 01:10:19.210
and veterans heal from their PTSD. Same exact

01:10:19.210 --> 01:10:23.350
comment. But it's kind of made me realize there's

01:10:23.350 --> 01:10:26.289
this facade of we want choir boys, but anyone

01:10:26.289 --> 01:10:28.869
with any sort of desire to learn about the kind

01:10:28.869 --> 01:10:31.890
of person that puts his uniform understands that

01:10:31.890 --> 01:10:34.010
a lot of us are here because of the shit that

01:10:34.010 --> 01:10:36.170
we went through when we were young. And if we

01:10:36.170 --> 01:10:38.430
work through, that becomes an absolute asset.

01:10:39.029 --> 01:10:41.689
So to say I want a guy who's never done anything

01:10:41.689 --> 01:10:44.710
bad or a girl. is ridiculous. Now, some of them

01:10:44.710 --> 01:10:46.390
will have, they would have been straight edge

01:10:46.390 --> 01:10:48.189
and, you know, their path really didn't have

01:10:48.189 --> 01:10:50.270
much trauma, but a lot of us have been through

01:10:50.270 --> 01:10:52.970
some shit. And that's an absolute asset because

01:10:52.970 --> 01:10:55.350
that makes you, you know, I would argue a lot

01:10:55.350 --> 01:10:57.489
more resilient, you know, as far as the mental

01:10:57.489 --> 01:11:00.329
toughness side, but also compassionate and empathetic.

01:11:00.750 --> 01:11:03.189
If your mother was an addict, if your dad was,

01:11:03.270 --> 01:11:05.949
you know, you lost your uncle to gangs or whatever

01:11:05.949 --> 01:11:08.550
the thing was, you understand a lot of these

01:11:08.550 --> 01:11:11.350
streets that we work in. If you've been sheltered

01:11:11.350 --> 01:11:13.010
your whole life, never done anything, and then

01:11:13.010 --> 01:11:14.890
you're thrust into the red light district in

01:11:14.890 --> 01:11:17.409
your city, your head's going to fucking explode.

01:11:17.890 --> 01:11:20.130
So I think we've got to shift that. There are,

01:11:20.149 --> 01:11:22.810
of course, some crimes that are unacceptable

01:11:22.810 --> 01:11:25.390
that you can't put a uniform on. But there's

01:11:25.390 --> 01:11:29.189
so many where it really doesn't, as long as it

01:11:29.189 --> 01:11:31.670
wasn't recent, of course, that it shouldn't be

01:11:31.670 --> 01:11:34.130
a disqualifying factor if someone's been on a

01:11:34.130 --> 01:11:37.069
healing journey and rehabilitated from whatever

01:11:37.069 --> 01:11:44.319
that thing was. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm glad you

01:11:44.319 --> 01:11:45.960
said that because that's exactly what needs to

01:11:45.960 --> 01:11:50.939
happen. I just I look at our recruiting and just

01:11:50.939 --> 01:11:55.199
in our last. I was a field training officer until

01:11:55.199 --> 01:11:59.319
about, I think, 20, 2022 or whatever. And I just

01:11:59.319 --> 01:12:04.960
got I got frustrated with it. And. just because

01:12:04.960 --> 01:12:07.460
of the of the individuals that were coming through

01:12:07.460 --> 01:12:11.000
you know the the the times that our agency would

01:12:11.000 --> 01:12:13.100
you know they would do you know this person has

01:12:13.100 --> 01:12:16.739
to get an extension in a training process six

01:12:16.739 --> 01:12:20.859
times you know and it's like man if this dude

01:12:20.859 --> 01:12:24.039
or gal has not got it you know and it's something

01:12:24.039 --> 01:12:27.520
that's real simple by the you know second or

01:12:27.520 --> 01:12:30.659
third time then it's probably an issue right

01:12:30.659 --> 01:12:35.140
and so i i have I don't know. I, I think, like

01:12:35.140 --> 01:12:39.020
I said, I think as long as they, they, they're

01:12:39.020 --> 01:12:41.380
going, I think they're going back down the other

01:12:41.380 --> 01:12:43.279
path. Cause I think they've realized at least

01:12:43.279 --> 01:12:46.039
here in Oklahoma city area, I think they've realized

01:12:46.039 --> 01:12:51.079
that they can't be so quote unquote judgy. And

01:12:51.079 --> 01:12:53.140
I'm not saying that I know they have to do their

01:12:53.140 --> 01:12:56.020
due diligence, but at the same time, they have

01:12:56.020 --> 01:13:00.109
got to get people who've done real shit. you

01:13:00.109 --> 01:13:02.750
know, in their lives have been, have got real

01:13:02.750 --> 01:13:05.510
life experience. And like you said, take that

01:13:05.510 --> 01:13:09.109
experience to the streets to where, when, you

01:13:09.109 --> 01:13:12.350
know, if you're going into a fire, you never

01:13:12.350 --> 01:13:15.729
know like what your experience was on the fire

01:13:15.729 --> 01:13:18.390
side as a kid, as an adolescent or whatever it

01:13:18.390 --> 01:13:21.890
is. And now you see a similar situation with

01:13:21.890 --> 01:13:24.449
a family or whatever it is. And now you can be

01:13:24.449 --> 01:13:26.789
kind of that, that linkage and that assistance

01:13:26.789 --> 01:13:30.220
to them. you know, after all is said and done,

01:13:30.340 --> 01:13:34.399
you know what I mean? So I just, there is value

01:13:34.399 --> 01:13:39.420
in some of our mistakes. And I think that, you

01:13:39.420 --> 01:13:43.619
know, Denzel Washington said it so greatly. He

01:13:43.619 --> 01:13:47.619
said, ease is the greatest threat to prosperity

01:13:47.619 --> 01:13:51.840
than hardship. You know, and that's, and I think

01:13:51.840 --> 01:13:56.550
because we want things so easy. that we don't

01:13:56.550 --> 01:14:01.289
get the value of the toughness right so and and

01:14:01.289 --> 01:14:04.949
I every time when I when I talk to a lot of different

01:14:04.949 --> 01:14:07.289
a lot of different individuals because now I'm

01:14:07.289 --> 01:14:09.289
I'm doing this thing called next phase leadership

01:14:09.289 --> 01:14:11.329
where I talk about like going into your next

01:14:11.329 --> 01:14:14.189
phase of life and the lessons that you need to

01:14:14.189 --> 01:14:16.789
take and and all the rest of that stuff and and

01:14:16.789 --> 01:14:19.369
and I have my own kind of speaking world on that

01:14:19.369 --> 01:14:22.829
but I love I love the fact that we can that we

01:14:22.829 --> 01:14:26.850
can learn about it and and invest in it because

01:14:26.850 --> 01:14:29.069
when we do that we can pass it on to somebody

01:14:29.069 --> 01:14:33.109
else right it's all about we're very service

01:14:33.109 --> 01:14:35.029
-oriented people right james and so that's the

01:14:35.029 --> 01:14:38.189
reason why we do what we do and when we have

01:14:38.189 --> 01:14:40.810
that togetherness and we can do that and we can

01:14:40.810 --> 01:14:44.470
share it with others i didn't i'm not able to

01:14:44.470 --> 01:14:46.550
do what i do because i was such a clean person

01:14:48.520 --> 01:14:51.180
Right. I've gone through all my trials and tribulations

01:14:51.180 --> 01:14:52.859
and bullshit and all the rest of that stuff.

01:14:53.060 --> 01:14:55.560
And I've I've walked a path that's been pretty

01:14:55.560 --> 01:14:58.380
tough. And now I want to be able to gift it to

01:14:58.380 --> 01:15:00.359
somebody else saying, hey, listen, these are

01:15:00.359 --> 01:15:03.260
the lessons I learned. And these are these are

01:15:03.260 --> 01:15:05.800
what I want to impart on you so you don't have

01:15:05.800 --> 01:15:10.659
to. And as you move forward into your into your

01:15:10.659 --> 01:15:12.939
your next phase of life, these are the things

01:15:12.939 --> 01:15:15.220
that are going to set you up for success. Right.

01:15:15.300 --> 01:15:17.569
So. I just feel like, you know, when somebody

01:15:17.569 --> 01:15:20.029
comes in, I'm regurgitating, but if you're just

01:15:20.029 --> 01:15:21.970
completely clean, got no background, blah, blah,

01:15:22.029 --> 01:15:28.930
blah, you bring no value. Yep. Yep. I agree.

01:15:29.130 --> 01:15:31.149
Well, that's a good segue because I'll make sure

01:15:31.149 --> 01:15:33.590
that we talk about transition. We've run out

01:15:33.590 --> 01:15:35.729
of time talking about tornadoes and fitness standards.

01:15:36.529 --> 01:15:38.430
All the good stuff, right? Sorry, I'm burning

01:15:38.430 --> 01:15:41.590
up in my room. It is. It is. All right. Well,

01:15:41.670 --> 01:15:44.699
then, you know. It's become very apparent through

01:15:44.699 --> 01:15:46.920
actually seeing, but also all these conversations

01:15:46.920 --> 01:15:51.359
that the transition from the first responder

01:15:51.359 --> 01:15:54.260
professions, the military, can be very jarring

01:15:54.260 --> 01:15:56.539
to some men and women. I mean, you have this

01:15:56.539 --> 01:15:58.739
beautiful sense of purpose. You have this tribe.

01:15:58.979 --> 01:16:02.319
You have this identity of being someone who is

01:16:02.319 --> 01:16:04.680
making a difference in the community. And then

01:16:04.680 --> 01:16:06.640
one day, and I just ironically just did a video

01:16:06.640 --> 01:16:08.500
about this because we just lost a retiree to

01:16:08.500 --> 01:16:12.409
suicide. in Miami -Dade. I think they transitioned

01:16:12.409 --> 01:16:15.609
that about two years ago. You know, that door

01:16:15.609 --> 01:16:19.310
closes behind them and they cease to be anything

01:16:19.310 --> 01:16:21.569
anymore. You know, the seat that they occupied

01:16:21.569 --> 01:16:24.689
is filled with a warm body. You know, they don't

01:16:24.689 --> 01:16:27.050
factor on any sort of statistics. There's no

01:16:27.050 --> 01:16:29.899
VA for first responders. And then, you know,

01:16:29.939 --> 01:16:32.340
now a lot of them believe, oh, I guess I'll go

01:16:32.340 --> 01:16:34.239
be a security guard if you're a cop or I'll go

01:16:34.239 --> 01:16:36.279
teach at a fire academy if you're a firefighter

01:16:36.279 --> 01:16:39.600
because they haven't really realized the amazing

01:16:39.600 --> 01:16:42.680
gamut of skills that they actually have. And

01:16:42.680 --> 01:16:45.920
where I see people transition successfully is

01:16:45.920 --> 01:16:48.899
when they've understood, oh, I'm a servant. I

01:16:48.899 --> 01:16:51.079
was just wearing this uniform, but my mission

01:16:51.079 --> 01:16:52.920
is to make the world better and I can do it in

01:16:52.920 --> 01:16:55.579
a different way. Where, you know, people seem

01:16:55.579 --> 01:16:57.500
to really hit a brick wall as they go end up,

01:16:57.500 --> 01:16:59.939
you know, selling houses or finance or something

01:16:59.939 --> 01:17:02.100
where they don't feel like they're adding value.

01:17:02.159 --> 01:17:03.680
And then, you know, it just kind of compounds

01:17:03.680 --> 01:17:06.020
from there. So it's a, you know, kind of monologue

01:17:06.020 --> 01:17:08.819
preamble. But so talk to me about what made you

01:17:08.819 --> 01:17:13.500
even aware of the need for some sort of structure

01:17:13.500 --> 01:17:16.479
as our first responders navigate out. And then

01:17:16.479 --> 01:17:21.180
let's get to Encore Project. Yeah, so my process

01:17:21.180 --> 01:17:24.859
started back in about 2018, where I had a buddy

01:17:24.859 --> 01:17:26.319
of mine ask me literally, what are you going

01:17:26.319 --> 01:17:29.060
to do after you get done? And I stood there on

01:17:29.060 --> 01:17:32.960
a golf course and I go, I have no freaking clue.

01:17:33.579 --> 01:17:38.000
No idea. And that scared the actual living crap

01:17:38.000 --> 01:17:41.420
out of me. Because, you know, doing 25 years,

01:17:41.539 --> 01:17:44.359
which I expected to do, would put me at 48 years

01:17:44.359 --> 01:17:48.079
old. And at 48 years old, you still have quite

01:17:48.079 --> 01:17:50.079
a bit of life to live after that. And if you

01:17:50.079 --> 01:17:53.060
don't have any type of purpose or understanding

01:17:53.060 --> 01:17:55.439
of what you're going to do or how you're going

01:17:55.439 --> 01:17:57.600
to make ends meet. Yeah, you have a retirement,

01:17:57.760 --> 01:18:01.579
but it's, you know, I did. Idealistically, you

01:18:01.579 --> 01:18:04.079
don't you only get about 50 percent of what you're

01:18:04.079 --> 01:18:06.550
getting, at least here in Oklahoma. Um, you get

01:18:06.550 --> 01:18:08.569
a, uh, kind of a lump sum that you want to tuck

01:18:08.569 --> 01:18:10.350
away to where you can talk, you know, you can,

01:18:10.350 --> 01:18:12.270
you can play with, you know, later on in life,

01:18:12.329 --> 01:18:14.470
but you've got to be able to do something. And,

01:18:14.529 --> 01:18:21.189
and, and yeah, financially you'd be decent, but

01:18:21.189 --> 01:18:23.409
you need to do something like you just said,

01:18:23.449 --> 01:18:25.270
you know, we're very service oriented people.

01:18:25.789 --> 01:18:30.100
And I just, I started looking around and. I'm

01:18:30.100 --> 01:18:33.979
in the National Guard and in 2020 commanded about

01:18:33.979 --> 01:18:38.079
120 troops over the Iraq, Syria, Kuwait area.

01:18:38.399 --> 01:18:42.640
And when we were coming back, I noticed that

01:18:42.640 --> 01:18:44.640
the, and I knew about it, but I actually got

01:18:44.640 --> 01:18:47.239
to experience it. The military has got to, and

01:18:47.239 --> 01:18:50.460
it's whether the quality is great or not, they've

01:18:50.460 --> 01:18:52.500
got a transition assistance program, right? The

01:18:52.500 --> 01:18:54.859
Soldier for Life Transition Assistance Program.

01:18:55.789 --> 01:18:57.909
And they would, you know, kind of deep dive into,

01:18:57.949 --> 01:19:00.649
you know, how you are, what, you know, what are

01:19:00.649 --> 01:19:01.930
you going to do when you get home? Do you have

01:19:01.930 --> 01:19:04.109
a job? You know, what's your resume look like?

01:19:04.149 --> 01:19:05.550
All the rest of that stuff. Right. And so they

01:19:05.550 --> 01:19:09.729
try to help the service members, you know, look

01:19:09.729 --> 01:19:12.369
at, you know, moving into the private sector.

01:19:12.630 --> 01:19:15.409
And I kind of, you know, obviously going back

01:19:15.409 --> 01:19:19.430
to my 2018 thought, experiencing that in 2020

01:19:19.430 --> 01:19:24.020
and coming out of that. I knew what my timeline

01:19:24.020 --> 01:19:28.140
was. My timeline was about 2024. And then in

01:19:28.140 --> 01:19:31.460
2021, I was in an officer -involved shooting.

01:19:31.760 --> 01:19:36.920
And that really kind of propelled this process

01:19:36.920 --> 01:19:39.420
of trying to figure out what I'm going to do

01:19:39.420 --> 01:19:46.159
when I grow up. And so it really was a methodical

01:19:46.159 --> 01:19:48.340
thinking. It took a little bit of time to come

01:19:48.340 --> 01:19:51.939
about. But then I started also seeing. that we

01:19:51.939 --> 01:19:56.159
do have those that are leaving and dying just

01:19:56.159 --> 01:19:58.979
all of a sudden, you know, perfectly healthy

01:19:58.979 --> 01:20:02.060
individuals dying of various different issues,

01:20:02.159 --> 01:20:04.899
you know, mostly cardiac cancer, suicide type

01:20:04.899 --> 01:20:09.840
issues. Right. So about January of 23, after

01:20:09.840 --> 01:20:12.380
I was cleared and everything from, from the officer

01:20:12.380 --> 01:20:15.300
of all shooting, I really took that on to start

01:20:15.300 --> 01:20:17.300
doing some research. And like you said before,

01:20:17.380 --> 01:20:20.430
there's no VA system. for the first responding

01:20:20.430 --> 01:20:22.489
community. And when I say FRs, that's what I

01:20:22.489 --> 01:20:24.710
mean, the first responding community, you know,

01:20:24.710 --> 01:20:27.029
that's police, fire, EMS, dispatch, corrections,

01:20:27.250 --> 01:20:30.029
you know, those types of individuals. And I started

01:20:30.029 --> 01:20:32.810
looking just through Google and other places

01:20:32.810 --> 01:20:36.750
where they have like white pages, they have various

01:20:36.750 --> 01:20:39.270
different studies all the way back to the 80s

01:20:39.270 --> 01:20:43.750
on difficulties that first responders have when

01:20:43.750 --> 01:20:46.569
they move into the next phase of life. And that

01:20:46.569 --> 01:20:48.810
means moving in the private sector, whether that's

01:20:49.310 --> 01:20:52.149
James, whether that's after three years of service,

01:20:52.329 --> 01:20:56.890
seven years, 15 years, 30 years, right? So it

01:20:56.890 --> 01:21:00.770
varies. And what I've found, and in every state

01:21:00.770 --> 01:21:05.810
that I could talk to, nobody had a process. When

01:21:05.810 --> 01:21:10.270
we come into our service, we onboard so methodically,

01:21:10.409 --> 01:21:14.850
intentionally, intensively, you know, and it's

01:21:14.850 --> 01:21:18.800
done by structure, right? And you're told if

01:21:18.800 --> 01:21:21.220
you're good enough to come into this family,

01:21:21.359 --> 01:21:25.039
right? And then after that, it's total focus

01:21:25.039 --> 01:21:28.060
on your professional development. Very little

01:21:28.060 --> 01:21:32.180
on your personal development. And so when you

01:21:32.180 --> 01:21:35.760
move through this profession, and then all of

01:21:35.760 --> 01:21:38.260
a sudden you're like, hey, I'm looking at leaving.

01:21:38.899 --> 01:21:43.319
And the six months before I left, I was called

01:21:43.319 --> 01:21:46.659
a rod and retired on duty. You know, it was it

01:21:46.659 --> 01:21:49.520
was, you know, a name that they gave you and

01:21:49.520 --> 01:21:51.840
you're just like, OK, well, the reason why I

01:21:51.840 --> 01:21:53.779
told you guys I was leaving is because so you

01:21:53.779 --> 01:21:56.960
guys could plan to bring somebody on to replace

01:21:56.960 --> 01:21:59.520
me. I knew that that was the case. Right. And

01:21:59.520 --> 01:22:03.260
now I'm getting. Bastardized because of that.

01:22:03.659 --> 01:22:06.340
Right. Because I'm leaving, blah, blah, blah,

01:22:06.359 --> 01:22:09.279
whatever it is, right? And so as I'm sitting

01:22:09.279 --> 01:22:12.600
there, James, and I tell my HR I'm going to go,

01:22:12.739 --> 01:22:14.619
and they say, yeah, we just need a letter of

01:22:14.619 --> 01:22:19.539
resignation. Cool. Is there anything else involved

01:22:19.539 --> 01:22:27.920
in this? Nothing. Pin drop. And so it pissed

01:22:27.920 --> 01:22:32.619
me off. Made me mad. To the point, James, where

01:22:32.619 --> 01:22:37.239
when I had my retirement ceremony on February

01:22:37.239 --> 01:22:41.479
1st of 2024, they gifted me my sidearm, which

01:22:41.479 --> 01:22:45.260
I'm very grateful for. But they gave me the wrong

01:22:45.260 --> 01:22:51.100
box for it. So that shows you how intentional,

01:22:51.479 --> 01:23:00.800
methodical, how they rid you, right? that really

01:23:00.800 --> 01:23:06.939
hit me hard that I did 26 years of service, all

01:23:06.939 --> 01:23:09.439
the things that keep the agency, the community,

01:23:09.640 --> 01:23:12.119
you know, my, my family, everything, you know,

01:23:12.119 --> 01:23:14.840
my, my brothers left and right, all the things.

01:23:15.600 --> 01:23:21.960
And to be off -boarded in that way was asinine

01:23:21.960 --> 01:23:25.060
because now I got to figure out what the fuck

01:23:25.060 --> 01:23:27.680
I'm going to do. And that's okay. I can do that.

01:23:27.720 --> 01:23:30.500
I'm a big boy. I got big boy pants. But at the

01:23:30.500 --> 01:23:32.739
same time, I don't know what it looks like on

01:23:32.739 --> 01:23:36.319
that other side of the gate. Like they tell you

01:23:36.319 --> 01:23:38.840
at the beginning what it looks like to come into

01:23:38.840 --> 01:23:41.079
that gate. They tell you all the things you're

01:23:41.079 --> 01:23:44.159
about to get into. They tell you like what you

01:23:44.159 --> 01:23:46.939
need to do, all that stuff. But when you leave,

01:23:47.180 --> 01:23:52.079
there is no vision. There is no structure. There's

01:23:52.079 --> 01:23:55.100
no mentoring. There's no coaching. There's nothing.

01:23:55.680 --> 01:23:58.779
And you're left out there. to do your own thing

01:23:58.779 --> 01:24:01.720
at your own time. And you just figure it out

01:24:01.720 --> 01:24:05.659
yourself. That's cool. Got it. That's why we're

01:24:05.659 --> 01:24:07.100
having all the problems that we're having right

01:24:07.100 --> 01:24:12.960
now. Right. And so now there is some conflict

01:24:12.960 --> 01:24:17.880
that I'm seeing between the active side and the,

01:24:18.000 --> 01:24:21.779
I hate saying the R side. I say the next phase

01:24:21.779 --> 01:24:24.600
of life because, you know, that is the next phase,

01:24:24.760 --> 01:24:27.500
right? When you start putting the R, I want to

01:24:27.500 --> 01:24:30.039
put a big old circle around it because I'm not

01:24:30.039 --> 01:24:32.000
done. Retired doesn't mean that you're done,

01:24:32.119 --> 01:24:36.619
right? So there's this conflict that's going

01:24:36.619 --> 01:24:39.439
on between the uniform side and those that are

01:24:39.439 --> 01:24:45.560
on that other side. And we're expecting the uniforms

01:24:45.560 --> 01:24:49.560
to understand what these people are doing over

01:24:49.560 --> 01:24:52.979
here. and developing policies, procedures, any

01:24:52.979 --> 01:24:55.020
type of off -boarding process, whatever have

01:24:55.020 --> 01:24:59.020
you, to get to an understanding of what's going

01:24:59.020 --> 01:25:01.619
on on the other side, right? Which doesn't make

01:25:01.619 --> 01:25:04.359
sense. So what you need is you need entities

01:25:04.359 --> 01:25:07.439
like us to come in and say, hey, listen, this

01:25:07.439 --> 01:25:10.819
is the shit that you're about to see. This is

01:25:10.819 --> 01:25:14.279
the pathway that is about to happen to you. Are

01:25:14.279 --> 01:25:18.369
you prepared? Have you looked at your finances?

01:25:18.789 --> 01:25:22.529
Do you understand your pension system? Do you

01:25:22.529 --> 01:25:26.069
know the differences between the fire side, the

01:25:26.069 --> 01:25:29.750
police side, you know, your 401ks, your 403s,

01:25:29.750 --> 01:25:32.029
deferred comps, all the rest of this stuff. Have

01:25:32.029 --> 01:25:37.029
you set yourself up financially? We get that

01:25:37.029 --> 01:25:39.369
question answered. Then we move on to the holistic

01:25:39.369 --> 01:25:42.130
health side of health. You know what you're going

01:25:42.130 --> 01:25:44.329
to go through when you leave? You're going to

01:25:44.329 --> 01:25:48.869
have an identity issue. you're going to go, I'm

01:25:48.869 --> 01:25:52.550
not the guy they call anymore. You're going to

01:25:52.550 --> 01:25:55.409
go, I'm not the guy, at least for me, I had a

01:25:55.409 --> 01:25:58.970
police car always out in my driveway. And now

01:25:58.970 --> 01:26:04.550
I have no car in my driveway. Right? So I have

01:26:04.550 --> 01:26:07.350
all my, I literally in this office, I have all

01:26:07.350 --> 01:26:12.489
my uniforms right there. Right? I can never don

01:26:12.489 --> 01:26:15.609
them on anymore. Right. You know what I mean?

01:26:15.810 --> 01:26:19.989
And so it's you know, how do you how do you master

01:26:19.989 --> 01:26:23.609
your mindset to change that? Right. And so we

01:26:23.609 --> 01:26:26.970
we go into a lot of that in some of our in our

01:26:26.970 --> 01:26:30.949
course. And we talk about the the pathway from

01:26:30.949 --> 01:26:34.729
aspiring to being accomplished. I mean, there's

01:26:34.729 --> 01:26:37.390
a lot of things that we talk about in that in

01:26:37.390 --> 01:26:40.310
that avenue. But then we also talk about the

01:26:40.310 --> 01:26:42.760
physical fitness side of the house. Just because

01:26:42.760 --> 01:26:45.699
you're done doesn't mean that you're done physically.

01:26:45.840 --> 01:26:49.600
You've got to keep moving. Right. And so we bring

01:26:49.600 --> 01:26:53.060
in entities that focus on that. We talk about,

01:26:53.060 --> 01:26:56.619
you know, the difference between shift work and

01:26:56.619 --> 01:26:58.520
behind the desk and all the rest of that stuff

01:26:58.520 --> 01:27:02.060
to now you're on that other side of the gate.

01:27:02.159 --> 01:27:04.359
How do you keep yourself physically healthy?

01:27:04.800 --> 01:27:08.300
Right. And we have it backed by different proprietorships

01:27:08.300 --> 01:27:11.199
and we align with different individuals. And

01:27:11.199 --> 01:27:13.079
then we also talk about the mental health side

01:27:13.079 --> 01:27:15.579
of the house, you know, the Maslow's hierarchy

01:27:15.579 --> 01:27:18.399
of needs, you know, the belonging side of the

01:27:18.399 --> 01:27:21.319
house, you know, the self -esteem, you know,

01:27:21.319 --> 01:27:25.720
all that that's in there. Right. And unfortunately,

01:27:25.880 --> 01:27:29.699
what happens is that when we leave, if we don't

01:27:29.699 --> 01:27:32.760
prepare ourselves, if we don't have an understanding

01:27:32.760 --> 01:27:34.579
what it's going to be like on that other side

01:27:34.579 --> 01:27:38.060
of the gate, then we go to drinking and we go

01:27:38.060 --> 01:27:41.670
to gambling. We go to infidelity. We go to all

01:27:41.670 --> 01:27:44.270
the patching mechanisms that are out there, right?

01:27:44.369 --> 01:27:46.930
We might go fish and golf for about three months.

01:27:47.789 --> 01:27:49.829
You know, we might do all those great things

01:27:49.829 --> 01:27:53.550
that we talk about. But at the end of the day,

01:27:53.670 --> 01:27:56.590
we have to have a purpose. And that's whether

01:27:56.590 --> 01:27:59.909
serving in your local church, you know, going,

01:28:00.090 --> 01:28:02.289
you know, a volunteering at a food bank, whatever

01:28:02.289 --> 01:28:06.569
that is, or, you know, finding out what other

01:28:06.569 --> 01:28:10.539
job may be out there for you. that can take your

01:28:10.539 --> 01:28:12.680
skill set and attributes in and level up that

01:28:12.680 --> 01:28:17.180
business. So we do a lot of resume building.

01:28:17.720 --> 01:28:22.439
We own that process. We tell you, we'll bring

01:28:22.439 --> 01:28:25.399
your resume in from your agency and we'll be

01:28:25.399 --> 01:28:28.420
able to tell you, hey, you could be a sales guy

01:28:28.420 --> 01:28:30.739
if you're a people -oriented person or a task

01:28:30.739 --> 01:28:33.520
-oriented person. We'll be able to tell you what...

01:28:34.890 --> 01:28:37.409
What area you can go into that would be best

01:28:37.409 --> 01:28:39.510
fit for you, whatever you want to serve in. Right.

01:28:39.850 --> 01:28:42.649
And then we also bring in a group called the

01:28:42.649 --> 01:28:45.189
SHRM. It's the Society of Human Resource Management.

01:28:45.710 --> 01:28:49.010
And they they will literally do mock job interviews.

01:28:49.210 --> 01:28:52.250
A lot of us are very used to doing job interviews

01:28:52.250 --> 01:28:56.130
in front of a board. And so and I'm talking more

01:28:56.130 --> 01:28:58.789
about our program, but, you know, we actually

01:28:58.789 --> 01:29:01.899
do some some mock interviews one on ones. And

01:29:01.899 --> 01:29:04.619
these are HR individuals from various different

01:29:04.619 --> 01:29:08.220
HR entities, businesses that are here in the

01:29:08.220 --> 01:29:10.460
Oklahoma City metro area. And they'll do a two

01:29:10.460 --> 01:29:13.100
30 minute ones where they will evaluate and give

01:29:13.100 --> 01:29:15.720
feedback. And so that first responder, when they

01:29:15.720 --> 01:29:18.399
come in, whether you're a battalion chief or

01:29:18.399 --> 01:29:22.220
you're a lower level, you know, lower level patrol

01:29:22.220 --> 01:29:24.659
officer or, you know, a paramedic or whatever

01:29:24.659 --> 01:29:28.090
it is, you're feeling comfortable. having that

01:29:28.090 --> 01:29:30.970
one -on -one interaction with that hr individual

01:29:30.970 --> 01:29:33.750
right so you know it's a lot of it has to do

01:29:33.750 --> 01:29:35.710
with language a lot of it has to do with presentation

01:29:35.710 --> 01:29:40.670
how many james let me tell you it's been surprising

01:29:40.670 --> 01:29:43.029
how many do you think are actually on linkedin

01:29:43.029 --> 01:29:49.600
first responders in general you mean yes um The

01:29:49.600 --> 01:29:51.920
way you phrase that, I'm going to assume it's

01:29:51.920 --> 01:29:55.220
low. So if you hadn't phrased it that way, I'd

01:29:55.220 --> 01:29:57.220
be like, oh, it must be 80%. But I'm assuming

01:29:57.220 --> 01:30:01.020
it's not. It's extremely low. And we all know

01:30:01.020 --> 01:30:03.920
what LinkedIn is. It is a resume, right? And

01:30:03.920 --> 01:30:06.760
so, you know, we bring that in front of them

01:30:06.760 --> 01:30:09.260
and help them build their LinkedIn profiles,

01:30:09.760 --> 01:30:12.439
you know, and really be able to put them in.

01:30:12.460 --> 01:30:14.020
Some of them don't want to be on that type of

01:30:14.020 --> 01:30:16.310
platform. And I understand that. you know, um,

01:30:16.550 --> 01:30:19.350
and, but, you know, giving him those resources.

01:30:19.569 --> 01:30:22.310
Uh, so they, when they do make that decision,

01:30:22.430 --> 01:30:24.609
you know, and we, we really, in our beyond the

01:30:24.609 --> 01:30:27.829
badge courses, we, we target 18 months and in

01:30:27.829 --> 01:30:30.590
whatever, whatever your gate is 18 months out

01:30:30.590 --> 01:30:34.489
to help you facilitate that, that transition.

01:30:34.649 --> 01:30:38.050
So if you want to be, so they, I've got a Lieutenant

01:30:38.050 --> 01:30:41.170
local highway patrol here. He wanted to be a

01:30:41.170 --> 01:30:45.800
home inspector. So. plug him into a local training,

01:30:45.899 --> 01:30:48.560
you know, technology center here, does his 90

01:30:48.560 --> 01:30:51.460
day course and he's good to go. You know, so

01:30:51.460 --> 01:30:53.500
when he leaves, he knows exactly what he's going

01:30:53.500 --> 01:30:55.699
to do. Already have the company aligned with

01:30:55.699 --> 01:30:57.319
them, all the rest of this stuff. Right. So,

01:30:57.319 --> 01:31:00.659
you know, I've got a firefighter that's a part

01:31:00.659 --> 01:31:04.100
of our, our mentor circle. And he was, he was

01:31:04.100 --> 01:31:06.520
in the Murrah bombing, was forced retired in

01:31:06.520 --> 01:31:12.460
2018. Is now a sales rep, a pretty senior sales

01:31:12.460 --> 01:31:16.060
rep for Bitcoin dot com. You know, so you can

01:31:16.060 --> 01:31:18.920
take a lot of your skill sets and you can apply

01:31:18.920 --> 01:31:22.199
it to various different areas. You just need

01:31:22.199 --> 01:31:25.939
a structured way. And that's what that's that's

01:31:25.939 --> 01:31:30.340
where we fail. We fail as as agencies. We fail

01:31:30.340 --> 01:31:36.000
as states. We fail as unions to supply that structure

01:31:36.000 --> 01:31:41.720
for when we leave our service. why is it when

01:31:41.720 --> 01:31:45.800
I would say even more so the fire service, because,

01:31:45.840 --> 01:31:47.739
you know, we're firefighters and we're EMS and

01:31:47.739 --> 01:31:50.060
a lot of agencies too. So, I mean, a real Swiss

01:31:50.060 --> 01:31:52.140
army knife, and you throw in rope rescue and

01:31:52.140 --> 01:31:54.420
confined space and all these other specialties

01:31:54.420 --> 01:31:57.880
on top of that. Why is it that when we walk out

01:31:57.880 --> 01:31:59.779
the back door, whether you're a cop, you're a

01:31:59.779 --> 01:32:02.699
firefighter, we think, well, I've got to do something

01:32:02.699 --> 01:32:05.579
with a halogen or a gun. Like, where does that

01:32:05.579 --> 01:32:07.340
myopic? Because, I mean, you think about it,

01:32:07.359 --> 01:32:09.920
teamwork, problem solving, working under pressure,

01:32:09.979 --> 01:32:13.220
all these skill sets that we have. But, you know,

01:32:13.300 --> 01:32:15.739
we're all we have that same. What is it about

01:32:15.739 --> 01:32:19.140
our journey through the profession that creates

01:32:19.140 --> 01:32:23.180
such a kind of blinkered view of our own skill

01:32:23.180 --> 01:32:26.380
set? Because that's always how it's been done.

01:32:28.199 --> 01:32:31.819
Nobody is taking this on, James. Nobody in this

01:32:31.819 --> 01:32:35.609
country has taken this on. I can think of one

01:32:35.609 --> 01:32:37.310
other person. He's out of, he's out of Virginia,

01:32:37.470 --> 01:32:41.350
but I can only think of one other entity that's

01:32:41.350 --> 01:32:45.470
even touching this. And it's because it's all

01:32:45.470 --> 01:32:47.649
that we're, we're kind of the forgotten group,

01:32:47.750 --> 01:32:50.689
right? So we do our service. Thank you for your

01:32:50.689 --> 01:32:52.470
service. See you later. Have a good one. You're

01:32:52.470 --> 01:32:55.029
off on your own. Right. And, but we haven't,

01:32:55.029 --> 01:32:59.069
you know, we die five to seven years on average

01:32:59.069 --> 01:33:01.770
across the United States, five to seven years

01:33:01.770 --> 01:33:06.399
after our service. Our mortality rate is 24 %

01:33:06.399 --> 01:33:08.920
higher than any other occupation in the United

01:33:08.920 --> 01:33:14.300
States. We die at 66 as opposed to 82, 85. And

01:33:14.300 --> 01:33:16.279
I've always said, just to jump in with that,

01:33:16.340 --> 01:33:20.000
that's startling in itself. But if you think

01:33:20.000 --> 01:33:22.619
about, compare it to the community, you're talking

01:33:22.619 --> 01:33:25.420
about people that arguably are fitter and more

01:33:25.420 --> 01:33:27.619
mentally resilient than the average person, which

01:33:27.619 --> 01:33:30.119
makes those stats even worse. Because I would

01:33:30.119 --> 01:33:32.140
say a lot of us should be living a lot longer

01:33:32.140 --> 01:33:35.140
than that. Absolutely. And a lot of it has to

01:33:35.140 --> 01:33:38.600
do with that ideology, that depression and anxiety,

01:33:38.880 --> 01:33:41.699
that fear, all the rest of stuff, those building

01:33:41.699 --> 01:33:44.819
blocks that then become part of our health issue,

01:33:44.899 --> 01:33:48.079
because our health issues, the top three that

01:33:48.079 --> 01:33:51.039
I mentioned earlier are cardiac oriented, cancer

01:33:51.039 --> 01:33:53.840
oriented and suicide. Those are the top three.

01:33:54.340 --> 01:33:58.680
And when we don't when we don't off board. When

01:33:58.680 --> 01:34:01.039
we don't prep our people, what I call prep the

01:34:01.039 --> 01:34:02.680
battlefield, that's what we say in the military,

01:34:03.060 --> 01:34:06.060
prep the battlefield, which we are going to go

01:34:06.060 --> 01:34:09.100
into. When we leave this gate, it is a completely

01:34:09.100 --> 01:34:11.880
different battlefield we're going into. If we

01:34:11.880 --> 01:34:15.159
don't have that mindset and we're not prepared

01:34:15.159 --> 01:34:21.000
for it, then we are going to freaking fail. And

01:34:21.000 --> 01:34:25.100
it's asinine. And I've talked to a lot of different

01:34:25.100 --> 01:34:28.470
companies. in organizations and stuff like that.

01:34:28.550 --> 01:34:32.989
And they go, we thought that would be part of

01:34:32.989 --> 01:34:39.229
your program. Nice. And it's, and it's absolutely,

01:34:39.289 --> 01:34:42.989
I spoke at a, spoke at a large fundraising breakfast

01:34:42.989 --> 01:34:46.550
in February, a lot of high -end type CEOs from

01:34:46.550 --> 01:34:47.989
various different banks and all the rest of this

01:34:47.989 --> 01:34:52.090
stuff. Some of them have, you know, relatives

01:34:52.090 --> 01:34:55.359
that are first responders. And for them to come

01:34:55.359 --> 01:35:00.819
up to me, absolutely petrified. They've got sons

01:35:00.819 --> 01:35:03.659
and daughters that are going, they're about to

01:35:03.659 --> 01:35:05.720
step into this world and you're giving us that

01:35:05.720 --> 01:35:11.619
stat and nothing's being done. It, it just, it

01:35:11.619 --> 01:35:14.939
scares the shit out of them. Right. And so it's

01:35:14.939 --> 01:35:18.500
that, that pain that's there that they're feeling

01:35:18.500 --> 01:35:20.500
and they're going, all right, we're backing you,

01:35:20.560 --> 01:35:24.180
Jeff. We're coming. This is the thing that I

01:35:24.180 --> 01:35:27.260
talk about is so many of the problems you sound

01:35:27.260 --> 01:35:28.600
like, oh, you're always talking about things

01:35:28.600 --> 01:35:31.560
that are broken because they're so easily fixed.

01:35:31.899 --> 01:35:35.199
It's an educational piece in the front door saying

01:35:35.199 --> 01:35:37.399
this is what you're bringing in. So let's talk

01:35:37.399 --> 01:35:39.180
about the mental health side. Let's not do an

01:35:39.180 --> 01:35:41.960
MMPI and check a box like, oh, yeah, we check

01:35:41.960 --> 01:35:44.239
to see if they're a crazy person. Let's say,

01:35:44.300 --> 01:35:45.720
hey, you're going to have some stuff in your

01:35:45.720 --> 01:35:47.560
bucket, your backpack, whatever metaphor you

01:35:47.560 --> 01:35:49.859
want to use. Let's start working through it.

01:35:49.880 --> 01:35:51.800
So that becomes a strength. And it's the same

01:35:51.800 --> 01:35:54.720
on the back. Let's start talking about that sense

01:35:54.720 --> 01:35:56.659
of, you know, loss of tribe and all these other

01:35:56.659 --> 01:35:59.359
things. Let's, you know, work on your fitness.

01:35:59.579 --> 01:36:01.619
Yes, you're in the last year of your, that doesn't

01:36:01.619 --> 01:36:03.079
mean that you're just going to sit in a lazy

01:36:03.079 --> 01:36:05.819
boy. You actually want to work and be fitter,

01:36:05.819 --> 01:36:07.859
you know, because you're also going to be screened

01:36:07.859 --> 01:36:09.279
for whatever health insurance you're going to

01:36:09.279 --> 01:36:11.239
get. And you want to make sure that your premiums

01:36:11.239 --> 01:36:14.260
are lower. So, I mean, there's so many. things

01:36:14.260 --> 01:36:15.920
of you know what you're doing there's so many

01:36:15.920 --> 01:36:18.079
solutions the work weeks the fitness standards

01:36:18.079 --> 01:36:20.079
all these different things that we can absolutely

01:36:20.079 --> 01:36:24.420
affect that will save numerous numerous lives

01:36:24.420 --> 01:36:27.039
and you know increase the quality of you know

01:36:27.039 --> 01:36:29.880
a hundred times that but if we just stick our

01:36:29.880 --> 01:36:33.100
head in the sand and ignoring it and say oh you're

01:36:33.100 --> 01:36:35.479
being negative if you bring it up it's like well

01:36:35.479 --> 01:36:38.260
you're just basically perfectly fine with losing

01:36:38.260 --> 01:36:40.420
more men more men and women when they walk out

01:36:40.420 --> 01:36:45.949
the back door Yeah, and it drives me insane that

01:36:45.949 --> 01:36:50.729
we're just allowing this to happen. You know,

01:36:50.750 --> 01:36:52.970
one of the things that we've really started doing,

01:36:53.069 --> 01:36:54.989
James, is we've started going to the academies.

01:36:56.369 --> 01:36:59.850
And we're talking at the academies now where

01:36:59.850 --> 01:37:01.970
we're talking about, hey, listen, this is the

01:37:01.970 --> 01:37:05.310
shit that you're about to see. And if you are

01:37:05.310 --> 01:37:08.489
not ready for it, if you're not ready for it

01:37:08.489 --> 01:37:11.229
during and you're not ready to tackle it after.

01:37:11.850 --> 01:37:13.949
then you are going to set yourself up for failure.

01:37:15.109 --> 01:37:18.390
So we really dive into that. And some of the

01:37:18.390 --> 01:37:21.289
feedback that we've got, especially from the

01:37:21.289 --> 01:37:24.569
younger officers in our academies, I just taught

01:37:24.569 --> 01:37:28.609
at the Oklahoma State Fire Association, their

01:37:28.609 --> 01:37:32.569
big museum there. And all of them came up and

01:37:32.569 --> 01:37:34.909
they were just like, God, we wish we'd had this

01:37:34.909 --> 01:37:38.579
shit when we were younger. You know, we wish

01:37:38.579 --> 01:37:40.039
we would have had this when we were coming to

01:37:40.039 --> 01:37:42.359
the academy. We wish we'd had this like every

01:37:42.359 --> 01:37:45.460
two years in our in -service. You know, have

01:37:45.460 --> 01:37:48.220
this on a repeating cycle. Right. Because you

01:37:48.220 --> 01:37:51.560
say it once you retain maybe 10 percent of it.

01:37:51.840 --> 01:37:55.279
Right. So, you know, have it on repeat. If it's

01:37:55.279 --> 01:37:58.939
important, make sure it's part of your agency's

01:37:58.939 --> 01:38:03.800
culture. Right. And so the unions, the agencies,

01:38:04.020 --> 01:38:06.760
the counties, the states, all the rest is if

01:38:06.760 --> 01:38:09.050
this is. if this is an important side, because

01:38:09.050 --> 01:38:12.770
listen, when we leave, you know, they all look

01:38:12.770 --> 01:38:16.789
at money. When we leave, we are an economical

01:38:16.789 --> 01:38:21.710
benefit to you. So allow us to survive a little

01:38:21.710 --> 01:38:25.130
bit longer. You know what I mean? Like, let's

01:38:25.130 --> 01:38:27.909
do something. You know, we can do things for

01:38:27.909 --> 01:38:30.890
your businesses. We are role models in your communities.

01:38:31.109 --> 01:38:33.689
We can be those guys that are on your councils

01:38:33.689 --> 01:38:36.750
or whatever it is, but we can also do a lot of

01:38:36.750 --> 01:38:38.449
good things for your community that bring in

01:38:38.449 --> 01:38:41.470
revenue, et cetera, et cetera, right? So, you

01:38:41.470 --> 01:38:45.229
know, we're just not lost causes and just thrown

01:38:45.229 --> 01:38:47.029
out to the dust. You know, actually not lost

01:38:47.029 --> 01:38:49.010
causes, but just like you're on your own now.

01:38:49.050 --> 01:38:51.310
You got to figure it out on your own. You know,

01:38:51.310 --> 01:38:54.170
and I think that has been the mentality. And

01:38:54.170 --> 01:38:57.229
that's why. everybody goes to, I'm just going

01:38:57.229 --> 01:38:59.869
to guess I'm just going to be security or I'm

01:38:59.869 --> 01:39:01.109
going to do this. You know what I mean? There's

01:39:01.109 --> 01:39:04.789
no real, I mean, James, you ask people and I'm

01:39:04.789 --> 01:39:08.130
sure you, you got buddies years too. What are

01:39:08.130 --> 01:39:10.850
you going to do when you're done? 90 % of them

01:39:10.850 --> 01:39:16.270
will say, I have no idea, no clue, you know,

01:39:16.270 --> 01:39:18.090
and that's, that's something that is a culture

01:39:18.090 --> 01:39:22.189
we have to change because if, if it were set

01:39:22.189 --> 01:39:24.600
up and this is, I'm kind of, Getting ahead of

01:39:24.600 --> 01:39:27.060
myself here, but we're trying to set it up to

01:39:27.060 --> 01:39:31.439
where this is going to be something that's part

01:39:31.439 --> 01:39:34.779
of the agency culture, the union culture, not

01:39:34.779 --> 01:39:37.520
just here in Oklahoma City, but we want it nationwide.

01:39:38.539 --> 01:39:41.359
We want it from California to Washington to Florida

01:39:41.359 --> 01:39:45.239
to New York. And it's to set ourselves up during.

01:39:45.899 --> 01:39:48.260
Because we talk, it's called the thriving responder

01:39:48.260 --> 01:39:51.800
that we do during their in -service side. But

01:39:51.800 --> 01:39:54.319
then we also call it the beyond the badge. You

01:39:54.319 --> 01:39:57.819
know, looking, it's a four -day deep dive into

01:39:57.819 --> 01:40:00.100
literally figuring out what the hell you're going

01:40:00.100 --> 01:40:02.479
to do afterwards. And at least giving you opportunities.

01:40:03.399 --> 01:40:05.960
Letting us show you what that path looks like.

01:40:06.840 --> 01:40:10.060
It might not be completely clear 100%, but at

01:40:10.060 --> 01:40:11.859
least you have the resources to reach back out

01:40:11.859 --> 01:40:15.619
to. right now these there are no resources there's

01:40:15.619 --> 01:40:19.899
nothing one thing i've talked about because i'm

01:40:19.899 --> 01:40:23.600
trying to really push for the firefighter work

01:40:23.600 --> 01:40:26.399
week to be standardized at 42 hours a week and

01:40:26.399 --> 01:40:29.119
the northeast has had it for a long time the

01:40:29.119 --> 01:40:31.439
rest of the country works you know basically

01:40:31.439 --> 01:40:34.779
the side of 56 hours And then we have this mandatory

01:40:34.779 --> 01:40:37.859
overtime, this recruitment crisis, there's all

01:40:37.859 --> 01:40:39.720
these vacancies. So now they're working like

01:40:39.720 --> 01:40:42.520
80 -hour weeks every other week or even more

01:40:42.520 --> 01:40:47.159
frequently. And the pushback of getting more

01:40:47.159 --> 01:40:49.979
rest and recovery between shifts, which aligns

01:40:49.979 --> 01:40:53.279
with PD, doctors, nurses, everyone else who saves

01:40:53.279 --> 01:40:56.399
lives, is, oh, if we give them more time off,

01:40:56.399 --> 01:40:58.880
they'll just work more. And I've always said,

01:40:58.920 --> 01:41:00.380
well, firstly, that's a really fucking arrogant

01:41:00.380 --> 01:41:02.260
thing to say about a human being when they're

01:41:02.260 --> 01:41:07.500
not at work. But secondly, when you actually,

01:41:07.739 --> 01:41:10.619
because in the fire service, we do have a period

01:41:10.619 --> 01:41:13.300
of time that is open where you can do something

01:41:13.300 --> 01:41:17.119
else as well. Now, should you work in an ER overnight

01:41:17.119 --> 01:41:19.560
or a private ambulance company? Of course not.

01:41:20.159 --> 01:41:22.680
But now you're a personal trainer or you're a

01:41:22.680 --> 01:41:25.460
landscaper or you're, you know, whatever it is,

01:41:25.479 --> 01:41:28.630
you've got this side hustle. That's a good thing

01:41:28.630 --> 01:41:31.050
because we're kind of bridging what you're talking

01:41:31.050 --> 01:41:33.489
about. You've created another tribe, another

01:41:33.489 --> 01:41:37.829
identity, another purpose. And so now whatever

01:41:37.829 --> 01:41:40.130
it is that you're doing, God forbid, you lose

01:41:40.130 --> 01:41:43.010
your job, you get fired, you get hurt. Now you

01:41:43.010 --> 01:41:45.189
have that thing to go to or you simply retire.

01:41:45.409 --> 01:41:47.210
What are you going to do, Jeff, when you retire?

01:41:47.369 --> 01:41:48.890
Well, I've already got my business that I built

01:41:48.890 --> 01:41:51.590
up. So I know what I'm going to do. That's what

01:41:51.590 --> 01:41:55.079
I'm going to do. So in my profession. That ends

01:41:55.079 --> 01:41:57.319
up not only being a second source of income,

01:41:57.539 --> 01:42:00.680
a safety net, whatever it needs to be. And this

01:42:00.680 --> 01:42:02.420
is the kind of thing I'm saying, yeah, do something

01:42:02.420 --> 01:42:04.399
that's going to put you at home in the evening

01:42:04.399 --> 01:42:06.739
with your family and then in bed next to your

01:42:06.739 --> 01:42:08.520
partner. Don't do stuff that's going to keep

01:42:08.520 --> 01:42:12.260
you overnight. But this is an absolutely beautiful

01:42:12.260 --> 01:42:14.579
thing. Write a book, start a podcast, whatever

01:42:14.579 --> 01:42:17.060
it is that you want to do. And then you start

01:42:17.060 --> 01:42:20.279
realizing through your career. oh God, I'm so

01:42:20.279 --> 01:42:22.619
much more than just a cop and just a firefighter.

01:42:22.640 --> 01:42:25.380
And I'm so damn proud to be those things, but

01:42:25.380 --> 01:42:29.079
it's not all of me. It's some of me. And again,

01:42:29.159 --> 01:42:31.960
don't get me wrong. I'm not also saying, yeah,

01:42:32.020 --> 01:42:33.859
if you're a real estate agent and you just go

01:42:33.859 --> 01:42:35.920
to the fire station for 24 hours and you keep

01:42:35.920 --> 01:42:38.899
working on your business, also no, no. When you're

01:42:38.899 --> 01:42:40.760
at a station, you're a firefighter and you should

01:42:40.760 --> 01:42:42.739
be all in on training and your fitness and everything

01:42:42.739 --> 01:42:45.399
else and running calls. But having that second

01:42:45.399 --> 01:42:48.840
identity outside, I think that is also another

01:42:48.840 --> 01:42:50.899
great movement, especially in the fire service.

01:42:50.939 --> 01:42:54.020
You don't have to, but most of us have something

01:42:54.020 --> 01:42:55.939
that we love to do. You play in bars, you know,

01:42:55.960 --> 01:42:57.920
and you're a guitarist and a singer, whatever

01:42:57.920 --> 01:43:01.020
it is doing that other thing. I think there's

01:43:01.020 --> 01:43:03.899
so much benefit. They see it as, Oh, they can't

01:43:03.899 --> 01:43:07.800
work off duty. Like bullshit. Why not? He's a

01:43:07.800 --> 01:43:09.859
swim coach. Whatever it is, go do that thing.

01:43:09.899 --> 01:43:12.220
Just be cognizant of making sure you get rest

01:43:12.220 --> 01:43:14.979
and recovery on those days off. You hang drywall,

01:43:15.079 --> 01:43:19.220
amazing. Just go home at five. Right. Yeah. Have

01:43:19.220 --> 01:43:24.020
some boundaries, right? As you were talking,

01:43:24.279 --> 01:43:30.479
we always talk about the three big reasons that

01:43:30.479 --> 01:43:33.880
we talk about having that purpose afterwards.

01:43:34.939 --> 01:43:37.420
is to elongate your life, give stability your

01:43:37.420 --> 01:43:39.319
home and repurpose you in the community you just

01:43:39.319 --> 01:43:44.060
served. And that just, that resonates across

01:43:44.060 --> 01:43:51.079
the board, right? And it's so easy to fall into,

01:43:51.319 --> 01:43:55.399
oh me, oh, you know, that kind of thing and not

01:43:55.399 --> 01:43:59.600
do anything because that's been kind of the culture.

01:44:01.780 --> 01:44:04.279
It's almost a standard right now. It's just like,

01:44:04.340 --> 01:44:07.779
Jeff, figure it out on your own, buddy. Again,

01:44:08.579 --> 01:44:10.079
don't get me wrong, we're all big boys here,

01:44:10.180 --> 01:44:14.800
big girls, but at the same time, that's why those

01:44:14.800 --> 01:44:18.720
that are in uniform can't figure out what to

01:44:18.720 --> 01:44:20.319
do with these guys on the other side because

01:44:20.319 --> 01:44:23.319
they're not there yet. They can't say anything.

01:44:24.180 --> 01:44:25.739
It's the ones that are over here on this other

01:44:25.739 --> 01:44:29.199
side that are... saying, Hey, you need to do

01:44:29.199 --> 01:44:31.920
this. And there's gotta be some reach back saying,

01:44:32.039 --> 01:44:35.899
Hey, prep yourself, you know, and, and, and coming

01:44:35.899 --> 01:44:39.680
in. So, you know, there's, there's a, I really

01:44:39.680 --> 01:44:42.680
do congratulate guys. I was actually having had

01:44:42.680 --> 01:44:45.340
lunch with one of our SWAT operators. He was,

01:44:45.380 --> 01:44:47.439
I was on the team with him for a while and he's

01:44:47.439 --> 01:44:52.279
17 years in and he just took up ice hockey. He

01:44:52.279 --> 01:44:56.199
said, never, never a skate in his life. And he

01:44:56.199 --> 01:44:59.340
started taking up ice hockey. And I said, and

01:44:59.340 --> 01:45:03.420
he goes, it was so nice to go do something that

01:45:03.420 --> 01:45:08.340
was not work related. It helped me in my head.

01:45:08.699 --> 01:45:10.640
It helped me in my spirit. It helped me in my

01:45:10.640 --> 01:45:14.380
being. It helped me be able to talk to my wife,

01:45:14.520 --> 01:45:17.920
you know, and being grounded with my kids and

01:45:17.920 --> 01:45:19.380
all the rest of that stuff. He goes, because

01:45:19.380 --> 01:45:23.079
so many of us just hone in on that professional

01:45:23.079 --> 01:45:26.500
side. that we go do the job and then we go do

01:45:26.500 --> 01:45:28.859
the side job. And then the only friends that

01:45:28.859 --> 01:45:30.680
we have around us are the people that we work

01:45:30.680 --> 01:45:32.619
with and blah, blah, blah. You know what I mean?

01:45:32.659 --> 01:45:35.779
We're just so integrated, but we don't go and

01:45:35.779 --> 01:45:38.619
do anything outside, right? It's almost like

01:45:38.619 --> 01:45:41.220
there's a fear to do that. It's like, well, they

01:45:41.220 --> 01:45:43.300
don't know who we are. They don't know what we

01:45:43.300 --> 01:45:46.659
do, blah, blah, blah, right? So I can't talk

01:45:46.659 --> 01:45:50.819
to them, right? And don't get me wrong, for a

01:45:50.819 --> 01:45:53.829
long time, I had a little bit of that. that ideal

01:45:53.829 --> 01:45:56.649
too but at the same time i started realizing

01:45:56.649 --> 01:46:00.970
that i had to have people outside of my workplace

01:46:00.970 --> 01:46:04.770
to communicate with i had to have you know different

01:46:04.770 --> 01:46:07.409
arenas for me to be involved in you know what

01:46:07.409 --> 01:46:11.930
i mean and so it was uh it's it's refreshing

01:46:11.930 --> 01:46:13.949
to hear those stories i wish there were more

01:46:13.949 --> 01:46:16.970
of them and you know i know i know the fire guys

01:46:17.710 --> 01:46:20.029
You know, they do take on a lot of different

01:46:20.029 --> 01:46:23.250
type of skill sets just because of the way. Like

01:46:23.250 --> 01:46:29.569
here, I know Oklahoma City, I think they do 24

01:46:29.569 --> 01:46:35.170
on and 72. I can't remember. No, I'm sorry, 48

01:46:35.170 --> 01:46:39.210
on, 96 off on the fire side. Edmond does 24 on,

01:46:39.310 --> 01:46:43.229
24 off, 24 on, 24 off, and then four days off.

01:46:44.270 --> 01:46:47.939
So it's kind of interesting how. the dynamic

01:46:47.939 --> 01:46:52.399
is, um, in that rest work cycle, you know, um,

01:46:52.640 --> 01:46:55.340
you know, for us, we were working 10 hour shifts,

01:46:55.439 --> 01:46:58.520
you know, four days a week type deal. Um, but

01:46:58.520 --> 01:47:01.739
there was a lot of, a lot of overtime, a lot

01:47:01.739 --> 01:47:04.020
of overtime. You were, you're, it wasn't mandatory,

01:47:04.140 --> 01:47:08.720
but you were extremely pressurized to, to stay

01:47:08.720 --> 01:47:12.640
over or to come in or whatever it was, whatever

01:47:12.640 --> 01:47:15.380
have you, you know what I mean? So. just because

01:47:15.380 --> 01:47:17.659
of the shortages. I think another thing, James,

01:47:17.680 --> 01:47:20.899
too, is, and I'm not trying to go off track here,

01:47:20.979 --> 01:47:24.640
but I think a lot of it is our retention. Our

01:47:24.640 --> 01:47:27.640
retention is just absolutely atrocious right

01:47:27.640 --> 01:47:30.640
there. There is no programs to retain people.

01:47:31.539 --> 01:47:35.760
And that's sad because that means that they are

01:47:35.760 --> 01:47:38.680
not really invested in their people. They're

01:47:38.680 --> 01:47:41.319
invested for the current. They're not invested

01:47:41.319 --> 01:47:44.710
for the future. Right. And it might maybe the

01:47:44.710 --> 01:47:48.930
future is a core value or, you know, some sort

01:47:48.930 --> 01:47:51.350
of competency or something like that. But they

01:47:51.350 --> 01:47:54.369
are not actually invested. So one of the things

01:47:54.369 --> 01:47:56.630
that I proposed during and this kind of goes

01:47:56.630 --> 01:47:59.210
back to the physical fitness side was when you're

01:47:59.210 --> 01:48:03.550
getting evaluations. Like you can't go if you

01:48:03.550 --> 01:48:05.689
can't pass a physical fitness test and you can't

01:48:05.689 --> 01:48:08.329
go to certain schools to help you with promotions,

01:48:08.569 --> 01:48:11.659
you're not allowed to go to X, Y, Z. Because

01:48:11.659 --> 01:48:14.539
you can't pass physical, right? So that would

01:48:14.539 --> 01:48:18.520
incentivize guys and gals to keep their shit

01:48:18.520 --> 01:48:23.039
wound tight, right? And, you know, if they can't

01:48:23.039 --> 01:48:26.739
promote or if they can't go to a certain licky

01:48:26.739 --> 01:48:30.100
-chewy type school or training or something like

01:48:30.100 --> 01:48:34.020
that, you know, maybe that'll keep them in the

01:48:34.020 --> 01:48:37.689
gym. I hate to say that that's an incentive,

01:48:37.729 --> 01:48:40.850
you know, other than just your moral and virtues

01:48:40.850 --> 01:48:45.670
to keep you in the gym. But, you know, that's

01:48:45.670 --> 01:48:47.989
just something that, you know, thinking outside

01:48:47.989 --> 01:48:50.949
the box might be something like that to do. I

01:48:50.949 --> 01:48:53.789
don't know. I play around with that sometimes.

01:48:54.050 --> 01:48:55.869
Sorry, I kind of went all over the place there.

01:48:56.229 --> 01:48:58.890
No, no. It actually reminds me of Roger Shai,

01:48:58.989 --> 01:49:01.250
who's a chief in, I forget the name of the town

01:49:01.250 --> 01:49:03.069
now. It's got a weird name, but it's in Idaho.

01:49:03.819 --> 01:49:06.220
And they actually give extra points in promotional

01:49:06.220 --> 01:49:10.539
tests when you max out physical tests. So I think

01:49:10.539 --> 01:49:12.619
that's phenomenal. And then they have jujitsu.

01:49:12.619 --> 01:49:15.439
They have very kind of advanced DTAC training.

01:49:15.720 --> 01:49:19.560
And that then attracts young people. I mean,

01:49:19.579 --> 01:49:21.100
I know that's from Anaheim. When I worked there,

01:49:21.260 --> 01:49:23.600
they had an amazing reputation. And they would

01:49:23.600 --> 01:49:27.140
lose a quarter of every probationary class by

01:49:27.140 --> 01:49:30.760
the end of the year. And so this is how you actually

01:49:30.760 --> 01:49:33.659
attract the right kind of person. The Royal Navy,

01:49:33.779 --> 01:49:35.699
I'm sorry, the Royal Marines did this really

01:49:35.699 --> 01:49:38.560
well when I was young. They said that the ad

01:49:38.560 --> 01:49:42.720
campaign was 99 % of you need not apply. And

01:49:42.720 --> 01:49:44.720
so the right kind of person was like, oh, really?

01:49:44.859 --> 01:49:47.340
Hold my beer. And that's who you want stepping

01:49:47.340 --> 01:49:50.539
up. So when you raise the bar and you have fitness

01:49:50.539 --> 01:49:53.199
standards and you're known to have an academy

01:49:53.199 --> 01:49:57.500
that's a crucible in a measured, deliberate way.

01:49:58.250 --> 01:50:00.510
that is going to attract the right kind of people.

01:50:00.569 --> 01:50:02.289
And that's going to keep the right kind of people.

01:50:02.569 --> 01:50:04.449
But the problem is just like you said, especially

01:50:04.449 --> 01:50:06.750
in the fire service, you've got these young people

01:50:06.750 --> 01:50:09.310
looking at us, you know, doing a Google search

01:50:09.310 --> 01:50:11.770
and like, wait a second, 56 hours a week. And

01:50:11.770 --> 01:50:13.949
then you get told you can't go home and they

01:50:13.949 --> 01:50:17.369
have divorce and cancer and suicides and, or

01:50:17.369 --> 01:50:20.210
I could be a welder. You know what I mean? And

01:50:20.210 --> 01:50:21.970
I can go X amount of hours and make this, you

01:50:21.970 --> 01:50:24.939
know, two thirds of more of the money. And so

01:50:24.939 --> 01:50:27.180
this is the thing that we have a retention problem

01:50:27.180 --> 01:50:29.560
because we're not viewing our men and women as

01:50:29.560 --> 01:50:31.520
assets. And then we're not developing, developing

01:50:31.520 --> 01:50:34.420
them as human beings, physically, mentally, even

01:50:34.420 --> 01:50:37.220
emotionally. And so, yeah, we, you know, that,

01:50:37.380 --> 01:50:40.199
that term disposable heroes is right. Just use

01:50:40.199 --> 01:50:41.880
until they break. And then now just get another

01:50:41.880 --> 01:50:44.279
one, you know, his uniform off you go get on

01:50:44.279 --> 01:50:46.819
that rig. So, yeah, I mean, yeah, literally you

01:50:46.819 --> 01:50:48.739
are a number, you have a badge number and that,

01:50:48.779 --> 01:50:51.840
that number is literally just transferred over.

01:50:52.800 --> 01:50:55.529
Yeah, exactly. Well, going back to the solutions,

01:50:55.590 --> 01:50:57.569
I don't want to be mindful of your time. For

01:50:57.569 --> 01:51:00.250
people listening, where can they find OnCall

01:51:00.250 --> 01:51:02.010
and any other things that you're doing at the

01:51:02.010 --> 01:51:06.409
moment? Yeah, so our website is OnCallProject

01:51:06.409 --> 01:51:09.390
.com. There's various different tabs that are

01:51:09.390 --> 01:51:12.090
up there, but it really goes into a deep dive

01:51:12.090 --> 01:51:15.670
of what we do and how we do it, where we do it.

01:51:15.850 --> 01:51:18.449
There are on the events page, it'll tell you

01:51:18.449 --> 01:51:19.890
kind of where our training is and stuff. But,

01:51:19.909 --> 01:51:21.989
you know, primarily focused right now in the

01:51:21.989 --> 01:51:26.359
Oklahoma area. But as we as we grow, we've been

01:51:26.359 --> 01:51:30.300
asked to be part of different conferences to

01:51:30.300 --> 01:51:33.460
to go attend and bring our resources to them.

01:51:34.239 --> 01:51:37.079
You know, really, James, it's a it's an awareness

01:51:37.079 --> 01:51:40.180
knowledge piece right now. You know, we're we're

01:51:40.180 --> 01:51:42.800
applying our courses here within the state of

01:51:42.800 --> 01:51:45.800
Oklahoma and hopefully here soon within the region

01:51:45.800 --> 01:51:49.800
from Kansas to Arkansas. down to Texas area here

01:51:49.800 --> 01:51:52.699
within the next year, year and a half. Our goal

01:51:52.699 --> 01:51:56.779
is to get our service out to every agency within

01:51:56.779 --> 01:52:00.060
the next five years. And we're doing that through

01:52:00.060 --> 01:52:03.159
various different processes and funding sources.

01:52:04.359 --> 01:52:06.779
You know, we're all on social media. So everything

01:52:06.779 --> 01:52:10.420
from LinkedIn to Instagram, Facebook, everything.

01:52:10.619 --> 01:52:15.140
So we're all on that. And honestly, the best

01:52:15.140 --> 01:52:18.630
way. to contact us is to go to that website,

01:52:19.149 --> 01:52:22.130
hit the contact us. It goes directly to me. So

01:52:22.130 --> 01:52:26.069
I'll get that within 48 hours and get back a

01:52:26.069 --> 01:52:28.670
response to you. But, you know, I was just up

01:52:28.670 --> 01:52:31.789
in St. Louis at the Union Station up there, what's

01:52:31.789 --> 01:52:34.350
called the International Law Enforcement Educators

01:52:34.350 --> 01:52:37.840
and Trainers Association. We were one of the

01:52:37.840 --> 01:52:41.640
only nonprofits up there. And I tell you, James,

01:52:41.880 --> 01:52:45.460
the interest from Oregon to Florida to Rochester,

01:52:45.859 --> 01:52:51.159
New York for this program was immense. I can't

01:52:51.159 --> 01:52:54.500
tell you our vendor table was very, very heavily

01:52:54.500 --> 01:52:59.319
occupied. This is something that is very unknown.

01:52:59.600 --> 01:53:03.479
It hasn't been tackled before. This is inspiring.

01:53:03.899 --> 01:53:08.159
I look at it as. Something that's much bigger

01:53:08.159 --> 01:53:11.600
than me. I just have the vision of where it needs

01:53:11.600 --> 01:53:14.340
to go and how it needs to get there. You know,

01:53:14.380 --> 01:53:16.439
we have a board of directors. It's a nonprofit.

01:53:16.739 --> 01:53:19.920
So, you know, we we're always looking for individuals

01:53:19.920 --> 01:53:23.840
to help source us and fund us to get our program

01:53:23.840 --> 01:53:26.899
to where it needs to go. But, you know, we're

01:53:26.899 --> 01:53:29.600
all majority of us that are that are in this

01:53:29.600 --> 01:53:31.399
group. We're all first responders. We've been

01:53:31.399 --> 01:53:33.939
there, done that. Our mentor circle is full.

01:53:34.939 --> 01:53:39.439
prior police, EMS, firemen that are very successful

01:53:39.439 --> 01:53:42.100
in the private sector right now. Some of them

01:53:42.100 --> 01:53:47.140
are retired. Some are not doing anything or they've

01:53:47.140 --> 01:53:49.279
opened up their own LLC or something like that.

01:53:49.819 --> 01:53:52.800
But they're still very big advocates within the

01:53:52.800 --> 01:53:56.939
community and valued in that community. And that's

01:53:56.939 --> 01:53:59.300
what we want to do. We want to make sure that

01:53:59.300 --> 01:54:03.640
our people are taken care of from... From the

01:54:03.640 --> 01:54:06.319
start all the way to the end of their life, they

01:54:06.319 --> 01:54:08.960
have given a lot to us. They've given a lot to

01:54:08.960 --> 01:54:12.039
our community and they deserve a structured,

01:54:12.119 --> 01:54:16.600
methodical education and guided pathway to off

01:54:16.600 --> 01:54:19.439
board into that private sector. Other than just

01:54:19.439 --> 01:54:22.800
being said, thank you for your service. See you

01:54:22.800 --> 01:54:26.920
on the other side. Absolutely. Well, I want to

01:54:26.920 --> 01:54:28.840
say thank you so much. I mean, it's been such

01:54:28.840 --> 01:54:31.220
an interesting conversation from tornadoes to

01:54:31.220 --> 01:54:34.520
Berlin to the transition out and giving people

01:54:34.520 --> 01:54:37.420
the tools. So I want to thank you so much for

01:54:37.420 --> 01:54:39.260
being so generous with your time and coming on

01:54:39.260 --> 01:54:42.140
the Behind the Shield podcast today. Well, James,

01:54:42.319 --> 01:54:45.319
I look forward to your future success. Look forward

01:54:45.319 --> 01:54:47.779
to maybe sometime if I'm in Florida, come see

01:54:47.779 --> 01:54:49.899
you. Or if you're in Oklahoma, do the same, my

01:54:49.899 --> 01:54:53.760
friend. We do have. A pretty interesting process

01:54:53.760 --> 01:54:55.779
that's going on in downtown Oakland City. I'd

01:54:55.779 --> 01:54:57.300
love to be able to share that with you probably

01:54:57.300 --> 01:55:00.159
in about a year. But it's a build out that's

01:55:00.159 --> 01:55:03.039
extremely impressive. And hopefully it's going

01:55:03.039 --> 01:55:06.579
to be a model for the country. And I'd love for

01:55:06.579 --> 01:55:08.619
you to be a part of it. And I do appreciate you

01:55:08.619 --> 01:55:09.319
having me on today.