WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr, yet

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another company that's doing great things for

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the first responder community. As a strength

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things is obviously it tracks. To me, it's imperative

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that we as a profession start tracking our people

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from day one and then over the full span of their

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career, therefore catching potential wellness

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if you want to try TeamBuildr, they are offering

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features. And if you want to take a deeper dive

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into Team Builder, listen to episode 1032 with

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Melissa Mercado or go to teambuildr .com. And

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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you

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think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome

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to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,

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my name is James Gearing, and this week it is

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my absolute honor to welcome on the show 31 -year

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veteran of the fire service, retiring as chief

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of operations of Milwaukee Fire Department, and

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the man behind Conway Shields, Paul Conway. Now,

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in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics,

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from his experience entering the fire service

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in 1984, losing his brother, the family business

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Conway Shields, the Firefighter Workweek, leadership,

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mental health, and so much more. Now, before

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we get to this incredible conversation, as I

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say every week, please just take a moment. Go

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to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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well over 1 ,000 episodes now. So all I ask in

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return is that you help share these incredible

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men and women's stories so I can get them to

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every single person on planet Earth who needs

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to hear them. So that being said, I introduce

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to you, Paul... Well, Paul, I want to start by

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saying two things. Firstly, thank you for having

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me as a guest on your show. Beyond the Shield,

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and also for the generous birthday gift that

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you sent after. And secondly, I want to welcome

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you onto my show, Behind the Shield, today. Well,

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thank you very much. I'm very blessed to be here

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today. Not in the studio, as people can tell.

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I'm on the road today. I had to go down to Florida

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for a funeral, so this was the day that we could

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put it all together. So great to be here. And

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that was Bill Gustin's funeral? Yes, sir, it

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was. So how was that, the funeral itself? The

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funeral itself was beautiful. It was all of the

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pomp and circumstance that you would expect.

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I will tell you that MDFR, Miami -Dade, did an

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amazing job of giving Bill all the respect he

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deserved. It was, I don't know, it was in a basketball

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arena, so it's hard to tell how many people were

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there. But I would say, you know, several thousand.

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And the pipes, the band, you know, the whole

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thing. Everything was there. Miami -Dade doesn't,

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you know, for those who don't know, my wife,

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she was on Miami -Dade for years. i've been familiar

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with them for a long time and uh they do not

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everything they do is first class they don't

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you know they're top shelf man they're top tier

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so uh so they did everything right let's put

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it that way Well, I thought what was interesting,

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I mean, obviously, Bill is known for his legacy

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when it comes to the training side. And we have

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talked before, I was trying to get him on the

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show. But at this point, it was kind of getting

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towards the end. And I don't know if he was wanting

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to have a deep dive on here. But what was really

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powerful to me is when they announced his passing,

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they didn't withhold the reason. And so many

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departments, I understand sometimes it's the

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families, but so many departments, if you really

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want to start removing stigma from suicide or

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even overdose, which I think is still even more

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stigmatized, then just simply put it out. as

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a normal thing like this is another tragic loss

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of life in the fire service and whether it's

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cancer or whether it's suicide we shouldn't kind

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of feel ashamed or feel you know that oh we can't

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we can't talk about that we can't be honest about

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that because i think that was a very um important

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part of of losing bill was was that you know

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here we have this fire service hero this and

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we hear that phrase all the time that's the last

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person i would have thought um and you know at

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that point he got to a point where he took his

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own life it doesn't negate at all the incredible

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fire service history they have but i think it

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should serve i think we owe it to him to continue

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this conversation it was kind of put front and

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center again no i i couldn't agree more and and

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sitting there yesterday Quite frankly, it was

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a lot more moving than I thought it was going

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to be. Again, for listeners that are unaware,

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my brother was a firefighter with me in the city

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of Milwaukee. And 30, oh, I guess 31 years ago

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now, he took his own life on his way to work.

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And that funeral yesterday brought back a lot

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of those. memories um and it moved me more than

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I thought it would not the funeral you know that's

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always fire department funerals or fire department

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funerals but the idea that that he chose that

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same path and 30 years ago without a doubt that

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wasn't mentioned it was just he died suddenly

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And it was people like myself or my family that

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said, well, yeah, he took his life. Because it

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was, to me, it was important. And when I was

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sitting there yesterday, before the funeral started,

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and I started thinking about that. And I don't,

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you know, I don't know. I talked to some people

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that knew him well that were there. you know,

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we kind of said, I don't know if you would have

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got to Bill. You know, I don't know if you would

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have got to him because he had his whole life

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in the business with the way the business is

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now. And, you know, it just, all I can think

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of yesterday is what a shame, what a shame. But

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I also know, I know that the mind, when you get

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to that point, You know, your mind is, we think

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of it as a rational human being and you're not

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rational. You know, you're not. And so we can't

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think, well, why would you do this or why would

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you do that? You know, I've come to realize that,

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that you can't think because that's not, they're

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not thinking the way you and I do. But it was

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definitely a moment yesterday where I just thought,

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man, what a shame. What a shame. And I am glad.

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I am very glad that. mdfr you know brought it

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out right away and brought it to the forefront

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they don't hide it you know their chief was very

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uh strong with uh a right a bang approach you

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know reach out call somebody you know check on

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people all those things that we all do after

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an incident like this but you know me personally

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i think we don't do enough left to bang we don't

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do enough in the beginning but uh yeah so it

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was it it was it was good to see them bring it

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out good to see them bring it to the forefront

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absolutely well you mentioned about you know

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them having a different frame of mind that's

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something that really became apparent as I started

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interviewing more and more people, whether it's

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the psychology side, or I would argue more, you

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know, more insightful with the men and women

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that have been at that point. And I've had so

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many like near suicides as far as guests on the

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show. And then several that went through with

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their attempt and they just survived, which,

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you know, is an incredible, incredible thing

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because they get to testify. Like Kevin Hines,

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the moment he jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge,

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everything snapped back to reality and he regretted

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it instantly. But for all those other people

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that leave the bridge, it's too late. And what's

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become hugely apparent now is the perfect storm

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of all these factors. And there is no one factor.

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You hear people say, oh, well, they were going

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through a divorce. That's bullshit. There's so

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many. elements so many layers to this you know

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everything from unaddressed childhood trauma

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to you know sleep deprivation financial issues

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relationship issues you know the side effects

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of alcohol and psych meds and organizational

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betrayal i mean all these things that come together

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um and then loss of identity which you know would

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probably be more pertinent in this conversation

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and now you you're they literally report their

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reality has shifted And that voice in their head

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is literally convincing them that they are a

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burden to the people that they love. And when

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you're in a profession where you've already signed

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a blank check as far as giving up your life to

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try and rescue someone else, and now you truly

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believe that you're the reason for your family's

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pain, they find themselves there, which I would

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argue at that moment in that distorted frame,

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mind frame makes suicide courageous and selfless,

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not cowardly and selfish. so the healthy brain

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can't understand the brain in that moment but

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i think like you said how we get to them is way

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way left of bang and what should be on the poster

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is not oh if you're struggling call me it should

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be if you are feeling like a burden to the people

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that you love call me that is a huge red flag

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that i really don't hear anyone talking about

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yeah it you know that it I'm at a loss for words

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for a minute because you're right. It is, you

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know, people, people look and I've already heard

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some things on, you know, third, fourth hand

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people. Well, Bill, you know, it was because

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of this. It was because of that. And at first

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off, I think, well, boy, you've got some stones

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for somebody you've never met. but you heard

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from the mailman who heard from the bus driver

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who heard from the garbage man that this is what

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happened and then you want to spread the rumor

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because you want to feel like you have importance

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and you have value and that couldn't be a bigger

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line of bs than i could think of but but you're

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right if if it was one thing or if it was firefighter

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related or police officer related we wouldn't

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have farmers doing it we wouldn't have mechanics

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doing it we wouldn't have the problem is it's

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it's societal and it's and it is an issue of

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of it's not the one thing it's several different

00:12:45.460 --> 00:12:48.100
things that pile on and you know you've made

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a very good point there and it is something I

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struggle with and I know I'll get a lot of crap

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for this but it is something I struggle with

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because if you're thinking of it along that line

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it's the courageous thing for you to do today

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It's the thing that's going to help your family

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out. It's the thing, you know, they're going

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to get the policy. They're going to get the line

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of duty death money. They're going to get all

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these things. Well, we add to that by this big

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funeral. We add to that. And people I know are

00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:29.159
going to hate me for it. But we add to that.

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And we need to get... I don't want to say that

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we don't do anything. It's not the case. But

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we need to know that that's not the end goal

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is not the big funeral. If I do this, I get the

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big funeral. You know, when I came on the fire

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department, there were people I worked with that

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literally towards the end of their careers, they

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did what they could do to be killed in a line

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of duty. Because that's what they wanted to go

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out with their boots on. And I used to think,

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this is crazy. You're living like a madman because

00:14:06.169 --> 00:14:10.789
you want that so bad. Well, if you don't ever

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have that opportunity, this adds another layer

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to that thing of, I want to be remembered. I

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want to go out being remembered. And what I see,

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and I won't talk about Bill and Bill's life,

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but what I see in my own life. is with my with

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my brother is if that's what he was looking for

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he achieved it his name is carved on the wall

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all of that's the case but he took 30 years away

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from his kids and he took 30 years away from

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me and uh you know i don't know maybe he wouldn't

00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:58.100
live 30 years who the heck knows but the point

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is is that that was taken That was the price

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that was paid for that. And I don't think that

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price is worth it. I just don't. I just don't

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think it's worth it. I know it's not worth it.

00:15:13.909 --> 00:15:16.230
Well, I've said this a lot. The fire service

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is great at burying our men and women and terrible

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at preventing the deaths. And I think it's interesting

00:15:20.909 --> 00:15:23.570
that you point that out because, yes, in that

00:15:23.570 --> 00:15:26.909
distorted view, when the mind is miswired at

00:15:26.909 --> 00:15:29.490
that point. That's another added bonus. Well,

00:15:29.570 --> 00:15:32.110
yeah, I, you know, I go out like a hero where

00:15:32.110 --> 00:15:35.289
you take that same person, get them in time,

00:15:35.389 --> 00:15:37.669
get them through these healing modalities. And

00:15:37.669 --> 00:15:40.830
then they realize the hero in this story is that

00:15:40.830 --> 00:15:43.250
parent is being there for that children. And

00:15:43.250 --> 00:15:44.950
we'll get into obviously the work week and other

00:15:44.950 --> 00:15:47.830
things that also tie into this. But this is the

00:15:47.830 --> 00:15:50.990
problem is. We have to get to these people before

00:15:50.990 --> 00:15:54.289
that perfect storm occurs because that psychosis,

00:15:54.309 --> 00:15:56.730
and I had a psychologist correct me, say it's

00:15:56.730 --> 00:15:58.210
not a psychosis. I'm sorry, but I think that's

00:15:58.210 --> 00:16:00.590
the perfect word for someone who thinks the best

00:16:00.590 --> 00:16:03.210
solution is to kill themselves and take their

00:16:03.210 --> 00:16:07.230
own life. You are in a psychotic state by that

00:16:07.230 --> 00:16:10.830
point. And so once they get to there, it's extremely

00:16:10.830 --> 00:16:13.289
hard to pull them back. But as you said, left

00:16:13.289 --> 00:16:16.429
the bang, when you start looking at all these

00:16:16.429 --> 00:16:19.700
pieces that contribute. And you affect, you know,

00:16:19.700 --> 00:16:21.759
the shifts and you add more rest and recovery

00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:24.600
and you change things. So there's not so much

00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:26.539
toxicity, whether it's at the firefighter level

00:16:26.539 --> 00:16:29.019
or the chief or, you know, whatever it is, you

00:16:29.019 --> 00:16:31.159
know, and then and then that strengthening relationships

00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:33.539
and marital problems start to go down, you know,

00:16:33.539 --> 00:16:35.200
and then and then you've got a fitness standard.

00:16:35.299 --> 00:16:37.720
So now the healthy body, healthy mind comes in.

00:16:37.860 --> 00:16:40.320
You can then forensically start picking apart

00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:42.940
so many of these layers. But if all you do is

00:16:42.940 --> 00:16:44.799
shrug your shoulders and throw an epic funeral

00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:47.480
with last calls and, you know, folded flags.

00:16:48.229 --> 00:16:50.389
You're not fixing the problem. I'm not saying

00:16:50.389 --> 00:16:52.190
that's what Miami -Dade is. I'm just saying as

00:16:52.190 --> 00:16:55.549
a profession, that's what we usually do. And

00:16:55.549 --> 00:16:57.610
so, you know, if you just give this good, you

00:16:57.610 --> 00:17:00.389
know, massive pomp and circumstance funeral,

00:17:00.590 --> 00:17:02.690
it's kind of almost like you've absolved yourself

00:17:02.690 --> 00:17:04.750
of any responsibility and then you just move

00:17:04.750 --> 00:17:08.910
on rather than saying, why are our men and women

00:17:08.910 --> 00:17:11.529
dying too soon? We're all going to die one day,

00:17:11.569 --> 00:17:14.430
but why are arguably some of the most physically

00:17:14.430 --> 00:17:16.730
and mentally resilient members of our community?

00:17:17.609 --> 00:17:20.809
who stand on the diamond, an incredible shape,

00:17:20.930 --> 00:17:23.450
an incredible mental shape, and we're losing

00:17:23.450 --> 00:17:27.869
them at 55, 60, if not before. Yeah, no, and

00:17:27.869 --> 00:17:31.269
yeah, I'd like to also be perfectly clear. What

00:17:31.269 --> 00:17:33.309
Miami did was beautiful, and it was a wonderful

00:17:33.309 --> 00:17:37.390
thing. And like I said, they did it first class.

00:17:37.490 --> 00:17:39.849
There's no doubt about it. So I don't want to

00:17:39.849 --> 00:17:42.349
discourage that or take that away from them.

00:17:42.950 --> 00:17:46.640
What I'm trying to get at is that like you said

00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:48.779
there are there are so many things there are

00:17:48.779 --> 00:17:54.740
so many things that tie into this that that we're

00:17:54.740 --> 00:17:57.980
not getting to prior we're not you know i sat

00:17:57.980 --> 00:18:01.140
with my wife yesterday afterwards and we were

00:18:01.140 --> 00:18:02.920
having dinner and we were talking about this

00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:07.839
and she said you know i've never all the things

00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:09.880
that i've seen or all the things you've seen

00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:15.140
how come that doesn't affect us How come that's

00:18:15.140 --> 00:18:17.339
not changed you? How come that's not changed?

00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:19.519
And for her, she said, it really hasn't changed

00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:21.980
me. And I said, well, time out. It did change

00:18:21.980 --> 00:18:24.519
me. I was different. I was a different human

00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:27.960
being. And I look and I say that one of the things

00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:30.259
that I, you know, when we say I want to get back,

00:18:30.339 --> 00:18:35.700
I want to get to them. The gentleman that I spoke

00:18:35.700 --> 00:18:37.740
with, the retired fire chief and some others

00:18:37.740 --> 00:18:44.369
of age, look at life differently. And I think

00:18:44.369 --> 00:18:47.470
that we do that just by age. If we've made it

00:18:47.470 --> 00:18:52.650
to this far, we see the world through a different

00:18:52.650 --> 00:18:57.190
lens. And we see as you are, you know, that there

00:18:57.190 --> 00:18:59.910
are things that don't, you know, they don't seem

00:18:59.910 --> 00:19:02.710
as they are. Things don't seem the way that you

00:19:02.710 --> 00:19:05.930
think they are. People have personal problems

00:19:05.930 --> 00:19:08.230
and all these other things. And we, you know,

00:19:08.250 --> 00:19:10.950
we do these things. We see all this stuff. But

00:19:10.950 --> 00:19:14.089
we look at it differently. because we survived

00:19:14.089 --> 00:19:17.369
it. And it's, it's the, I look at it and I say,

00:19:17.410 --> 00:19:19.130
I don't know. And I told her, I says, I don't

00:19:19.130 --> 00:19:21.789
know why that is with you. I don't know why,

00:19:21.910 --> 00:19:25.289
but somehow psychologically you were built for

00:19:25.289 --> 00:19:28.549
it. You know, you, you, and I said, maybe we

00:19:28.549 --> 00:19:30.630
need to start out with a test. You know, we take

00:19:30.630 --> 00:19:32.789
a psychology test coming into the job because

00:19:32.789 --> 00:19:35.069
a lot of our jobs up in Wisconsin, there is nothing

00:19:35.069 --> 00:19:37.710
like that. There is for law, but I don't think

00:19:37.710 --> 00:19:42.960
there is for fire. But we start to figure these

00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:45.960
things out ahead of time. And part of it, I think,

00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:47.880
and I'm off track a minute, but part of it I

00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:51.859
think was with her is she had people on MDFR

00:19:51.859 --> 00:19:54.660
that were telling her these were the things you

00:19:54.660 --> 00:19:56.160
were going to see. These were the things you

00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.140
were going to be exposed to. It was almost like

00:19:59.140 --> 00:20:01.599
a precursor. Hey, these things are going to happen.

00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:04.400
And when they happen, we're going to talk about

00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:12.190
them. But again. She had a strong mind that it

00:20:12.190 --> 00:20:15.990
was never anything in her life on the job, what

00:20:15.990 --> 00:20:18.109
she's seen, what she's had to do that's bothered

00:20:18.109 --> 00:20:20.829
her. It was, as you said earlier, all of the

00:20:20.829 --> 00:20:26.069
other things in her life that were the things

00:20:26.069 --> 00:20:31.019
that were beating her up. You know, yeah. Like

00:20:31.019 --> 00:20:33.440
I said, I apologize. I got off track for a minute.

00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:36.299
No, no. We're totally on track. It's interesting

00:20:36.299 --> 00:20:38.119
because this was really brought to my attention

00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:40.779
by a guy, Jake Clark, who founded Save a Warrior.

00:20:41.099 --> 00:20:43.720
And he really made me realize the prevalence

00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:47.279
of childhood trauma in most of us in uniform

00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:51.819
and also incarcerated people too. We have an

00:20:51.819 --> 00:20:55.819
ACEs score, so Adverse Childhood Experience score.

00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:59.470
I think it's... one or zero to 10. And most of

00:20:59.470 --> 00:21:02.710
us are around six supposedly on average. And

00:21:02.710 --> 00:21:05.049
that doesn't have to be, you know, therefore

00:21:05.049 --> 00:21:07.069
it's going to be a fracture foundation. Then

00:21:07.069 --> 00:21:09.089
you've got to factor in, well, as you were growing

00:21:09.089 --> 00:21:11.950
up, were there things that offset that? And it's

00:21:11.950 --> 00:21:14.710
interesting, kind of like your wife. I never

00:21:14.710 --> 00:21:18.630
had the darkest, lowest of lows. And I had some

00:21:18.630 --> 00:21:20.269
pretty shitty times. I went through a divorce.

00:21:20.309 --> 00:21:21.910
I was a single dad going through medic school

00:21:21.910 --> 00:21:24.509
and, you know, barely sleeping. And so I had

00:21:24.509 --> 00:21:27.920
some lows. There's no question. But nothing like

00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:31.019
the, you know, turning to the bottle the moment

00:21:31.019 --> 00:21:33.380
you get off shift. Nothing like the sitting with

00:21:33.380 --> 00:21:35.319
a pistol on your lap that I've had, you know,

00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:37.900
so many people talking about. And again, the

00:21:37.900 --> 00:21:40.940
question to me was why? Why not? I know hands

00:21:40.940 --> 00:21:42.980
on my heart that I'm not an exceptional human,

00:21:43.119 --> 00:21:45.180
that I'm no better than any of these men or women

00:21:45.180 --> 00:21:47.900
that got to that place. But when I looked back

00:21:47.900 --> 00:21:50.359
at my childhood, even though there were multiple

00:21:50.359 --> 00:21:52.599
traumas, like I was four years old and almost

00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:54.839
died in a house fire, like truly almost died,

00:21:54.859 --> 00:21:57.589
came out covered in soot. You know, there's a

00:21:57.589 --> 00:22:00.390
wall that fell and crushed every car next to

00:22:00.390 --> 00:22:03.849
us in a parking lot down to, I mean, like the,

00:22:03.910 --> 00:22:07.130
you know, below the seat. So that was two near

00:22:07.130 --> 00:22:09.369
-death experiences as a child. My parents had

00:22:09.369 --> 00:22:13.849
a horrific divorce. But I was one of five kids.

00:22:13.990 --> 00:22:16.430
I grew up on a farm. My dad was a veterinary

00:22:16.430 --> 00:22:19.690
surgeon, so he was healing animals. We had people

00:22:19.690 --> 00:22:21.549
come through the door from literally extended

00:22:21.549 --> 00:22:23.750
royalty through the, you know, gypsies and travelers.

00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:29.559
So, you know, human beings, good, bad, you know,

00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:30.680
that's what showed me that, you know, it doesn't

00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:31.839
matter how much money you've got. It doesn't

00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:33.220
matter what your house is. You know, there are

00:22:33.220 --> 00:22:34.859
good people and there are not so good people.

00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:37.339
So all these things that we know now are very

00:22:37.339 --> 00:22:39.539
healing time in nature, you know, community.

00:22:39.619 --> 00:22:41.559
We ate around a big table every day, just like

00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:44.259
a firehouse. And then even the gore that I was

00:22:44.259 --> 00:22:46.319
subjected to helping my dad operate on animals.

00:22:46.940 --> 00:22:50.369
There were these. healing modalities woven into

00:22:50.369 --> 00:22:52.289
my childhood. I just won the roulette. That's

00:22:52.289 --> 00:22:54.309
all it was. Like I said, I didn't do anything

00:22:54.309 --> 00:22:57.890
better than anyone else. But that allowed me

00:22:57.890 --> 00:23:00.970
to have those things kind of addressed by the

00:23:00.970 --> 00:23:04.349
time I put the uniform on. The people, more often

00:23:04.349 --> 00:23:07.009
than not, the struggle, the things that they

00:23:07.009 --> 00:23:08.809
endured as children, a lot of times they were

00:23:08.809 --> 00:23:11.559
buried down. And, you know, the guests on here,

00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:13.599
if anything, from being just simply the middle

00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:16.519
child of some pretty uncaring parents all the

00:23:16.519 --> 00:23:18.900
way through to sexual assault and homelessness

00:23:18.900 --> 00:23:24.059
and all kinds of things. So to me, even with

00:23:24.059 --> 00:23:25.460
the psychological test, I think the psychological

00:23:25.460 --> 00:23:27.680
tests that we do, because I know that it was

00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:30.640
never meant to be a standalone test to determine

00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:32.839
if you'd be a good first responder. I think they're

00:23:32.839 --> 00:23:35.079
ridiculous. And I think you're much better off

00:23:35.079 --> 00:23:38.259
doing a full background check and then giving

00:23:38.259 --> 00:23:40.619
people counseling, almost like you would give

00:23:40.619 --> 00:23:44.339
them PT as a new hire. Make it normal. And you

00:23:44.339 --> 00:23:46.200
go through, you know, six counseling sessions

00:23:46.200 --> 00:23:49.039
on probation and you just have these conversations

00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:51.519
and they tell you, hey, just so you know, the

00:23:51.519 --> 00:23:53.720
fact that you're here, there's a high chance

00:23:53.720 --> 00:23:55.160
that there's some things that you have when you

00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:57.859
were younger. And if we work through them. That

00:23:57.859 --> 00:24:00.559
will end up being a strength as you progress

00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:02.539
through your profession. And then as you start

00:24:02.539 --> 00:24:04.579
having some of these worse calls or relationship

00:24:04.579 --> 00:24:07.279
issues, you keep touching base with these counselors.

00:24:07.859 --> 00:24:10.799
I think that is a conversation that we need to

00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:13.279
have because there's no real mystery why some

00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:15.900
people do well and some people don't. It's, you

00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:17.880
know, have you got a fractured foundation because

00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:20.079
of what happened to you when you were younger

00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:23.990
being unaddressed or. Have you been fortunate

00:24:23.990 --> 00:24:25.730
enough to have it addressed and you've actually

00:24:25.730 --> 00:24:28.369
got a pretty solid foundation which allows you

00:24:28.369 --> 00:24:30.970
to carry the things that we endure through the

00:24:30.970 --> 00:24:37.890
career? You know, that's an excellent idea. Because

00:24:37.890 --> 00:24:40.630
one of the things that we were talking about

00:24:40.630 --> 00:24:48.170
yesterday, which came through strong to us, was,

00:24:48.430 --> 00:24:50.970
like I said earlier, there's things that I look

00:24:50.970 --> 00:24:55.500
at from this age. If you would have told me to

00:24:55.500 --> 00:24:58.359
come on a job that I had to sit with a counselor,

00:24:59.059 --> 00:25:01.319
I would have looked at you like, what is wrong

00:25:01.319 --> 00:25:03.779
with you? You lost your damn mind? I'm fine.

00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:05.619
There's nothing wrong with me. Shut the hell

00:25:05.619 --> 00:25:08.359
up. When do I get to go ride a rig? I would have

00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:13.359
thought that was foolish. I looked yesterday,

00:25:13.480 --> 00:25:18.180
and we weren't a part of it, but Pam noticed

00:25:18.180 --> 00:25:24.619
it online. there was a group of individuals that

00:25:24.619 --> 00:25:27.740
were obviously at the funeral that did what all

00:25:27.740 --> 00:25:31.500
good firemen do. We left the funeral and we went

00:25:31.500 --> 00:25:34.740
to the bar and then we drank and we drank. And

00:25:34.740 --> 00:25:37.660
by the way, we drank some more. I didn't, but

00:25:37.660 --> 00:25:40.259
you know what? I'm getting that. And I looked

00:25:40.259 --> 00:25:42.619
at that because I've seen it. I remember the

00:25:42.619 --> 00:25:46.559
20th anniversary of September 11th. I was in

00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:50.640
New York City and I watched literally as the

00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:53.589
night progressed. This thing that was supposed

00:25:53.589 --> 00:25:56.049
to be a somber ceremony of losing the lives of

00:25:56.049 --> 00:26:01.690
343 firemen become a drunk fest. That firefighters

00:26:01.690 --> 00:26:04.869
were brawling in the street. So much so that

00:26:04.869 --> 00:26:07.650
the next morning when the families of some of

00:26:07.650 --> 00:26:12.150
the fallen wanted to do a walk through the area,

00:26:12.329 --> 00:26:15.250
they couldn't because there was so much garbage,

00:26:15.470 --> 00:26:19.890
vomit, and everything else on the path. And I

00:26:19.890 --> 00:26:25.460
thought, how? in this service of drinking, how

00:26:25.460 --> 00:26:29.660
disrespectful we were to those who lost loved

00:26:29.660 --> 00:26:37.319
ones. What I'm trying to get at is age teaches

00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:40.859
you to look at those things differently. And

00:26:40.859 --> 00:26:43.880
it's how we get our next, you know, I look, and

00:26:43.880 --> 00:26:45.700
when I said earlier about Bill, I don't know

00:26:45.700 --> 00:26:48.440
if we would have gotten the bill. What I meant

00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:52.829
by that was The fire service will not change

00:26:52.829 --> 00:26:54.910
this overnight. Neither will law enforcement,

00:26:55.049 --> 00:26:57.569
neither will anybody else. It may take an entire

00:26:57.569 --> 00:27:00.869
career, may take an entire generation. But like

00:27:00.869 --> 00:27:03.730
you said, if we start at the beginning and we

00:27:03.730 --> 00:27:07.150
give them the counseling, we try and teach, try

00:27:07.150 --> 00:27:11.049
and tell them they are tactical athletes and

00:27:11.049 --> 00:27:12.829
we're going to teach, we're going to give them

00:27:12.829 --> 00:27:14.750
everything they need accordingly. And we'll get

00:27:14.750 --> 00:27:16.450
into this, like you said, sleep and everything

00:27:16.450 --> 00:27:21.140
else. But we have to be able. to somehow convince

00:27:21.140 --> 00:27:25.220
them because i know when i was in my 20s you

00:27:25.220 --> 00:27:29.039
couldn't tell me i was a you know tough i could

00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:31.500
take anything i even had the big mustache all

00:27:31.500 --> 00:27:35.259
out of the jazz uh you couldn't tell me any of

00:27:35.259 --> 00:27:37.059
that i would have thought it was all a bunch

00:27:37.059 --> 00:27:41.259
of garbage and all a bunch of baloney but if

00:27:41.259 --> 00:27:44.299
now and this is what i look at now and i think

00:27:44.299 --> 00:27:46.740
one of the things that i you know cities may

00:27:46.740 --> 00:27:51.539
not like me for this But I would tell every single

00:27:51.539 --> 00:27:56.480
young firefighter, you have one goal, to get

00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:59.079
out the other end as healthy as you possibly

00:27:59.079 --> 00:28:04.220
can, both mentally and physically, and have a

00:28:04.220 --> 00:28:06.799
longer time on pension than you had on the job.

00:28:07.859 --> 00:28:11.000
And that's why we're doing all of this now, because

00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:14.319
I don't want you broken. I want you in tip -top

00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:17.160
shape. When you walk out the door, I still want

00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:19.440
you to be healthy, and I want you to be mentally...

00:28:19.799 --> 00:28:23.880
still you know tip -top mentally so that you

00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:27.660
can live this wonderful life of 20 -30 years

00:28:27.660 --> 00:28:31.240
you know on a city pension and and we have to

00:28:31.240 --> 00:28:34.099
figure out we just have to figure out how to

00:28:34.099 --> 00:28:36.880
convince and maybe it's easier than I think because

00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:39.000
you know what these kids nowadays you know there's

00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:40.900
people that talk about oh they're not this or

00:28:40.900 --> 00:28:42.559
they're not that or they're not tough enough

00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:44.420
or they don't you know what that's all a bunch

00:28:44.420 --> 00:28:47.799
of garbage it's all garbage and and I just think

00:28:47.799 --> 00:28:51.309
that they they They look at life differently

00:28:51.309 --> 00:28:55.890
than us. I think we've realized that they don't,

00:28:55.890 --> 00:28:59.049
you know, if you told me I'd work 80 hours a

00:28:59.049 --> 00:29:01.849
week as a fireman, I didn't care. I wanted to

00:29:01.849 --> 00:29:03.890
be a firefighter. That's it. End of story. If

00:29:03.890 --> 00:29:05.650
that's the schedule, that's what I'll work. Oh,

00:29:05.710 --> 00:29:07.930
it's going to kick the crap out of me. I won't

00:29:07.930 --> 00:29:11.650
see my family. Who cares? Who cares? I'm a firefighter.

00:29:12.450 --> 00:29:14.970
They don't think that way. Because if they did,

00:29:15.170 --> 00:29:18.519
we wouldn't have. Or we wouldn't have the crisis

00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:20.299
with people trying to come on our job anymore.

00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:24.000
We just don't have the applicants. So, I mean,

00:29:24.059 --> 00:29:27.880
yeah, let's find out a way. Let's find a way.

00:29:28.140 --> 00:29:31.619
Let's find a way to start setting this up when

00:29:31.619 --> 00:29:33.880
they come in the door in their first six months,

00:29:33.940 --> 00:29:37.299
their first year. And continuing on throughout

00:29:37.299 --> 00:29:43.339
their career. So that it becomes the norm. It

00:29:43.339 --> 00:29:45.970
becomes the norm. just like for me it was the

00:29:45.970 --> 00:29:48.549
norm i came in the firehouse i got soaking wet

00:29:48.549 --> 00:29:51.670
i got covered in flour i had world war ii guys

00:29:51.670 --> 00:29:54.430
laughing at me you know but constantly playing

00:29:54.430 --> 00:29:58.589
practical jokes i had a year of of you know being

00:29:58.589 --> 00:30:01.829
um subservient to everyone else in the firehouse

00:30:01.829 --> 00:30:05.150
before i actually got to belong to the company

00:30:05.150 --> 00:30:09.369
well why did we wait a whole year why didn't

00:30:09.369 --> 00:30:11.789
we do any of that that's foolish now i look back

00:30:11.789 --> 00:30:14.740
and say that's just that that's asinine If we

00:30:14.740 --> 00:30:19.079
want cohesiveness, we want a culture in the firehouse,

00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:22.140
we want people to love the job, we want all these

00:30:22.140 --> 00:30:26.200
things to happen, why don't we start on day one?

00:30:26.980 --> 00:30:29.619
Why don't we start that on day one? And why don't

00:30:29.619 --> 00:30:34.539
we get them coming through the door, as you put

00:30:34.539 --> 00:30:39.119
it, with mental coaching, performance coaching,

00:30:39.339 --> 00:30:43.059
physical fitness? the counseling that you know

00:30:43.059 --> 00:30:45.079
so they can see because you know you bring up

00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:51.539
a great point as we started this we come in here

00:30:51.539 --> 00:30:56.339
to serve in an altruistic way that we're going

00:30:56.339 --> 00:30:59.420
to make the world better well why are we that

00:30:59.420 --> 00:31:02.119
way and i think you're right i think a lot of

00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:05.480
it well not i don't think i know because i've

00:31:05.480 --> 00:31:08.960
you know many of the excellent firefighters i

00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:13.170
had had horrible childhoods. You know, there

00:31:13.170 --> 00:31:15.490
was something broken in them. They came there

00:31:15.490 --> 00:31:17.970
because they were broken and they wanted to be

00:31:17.970 --> 00:31:20.930
part of something bigger than themselves and

00:31:20.930 --> 00:31:23.990
make the world better. And that's what they did.

00:31:24.190 --> 00:31:27.809
You know, so I'm on board. I'm on board. I'm

00:31:27.809 --> 00:31:30.670
all about that. Let's get that done. Well, I

00:31:30.670 --> 00:31:33.470
think what is encouraging is, and you already

00:31:33.470 --> 00:31:36.460
said this. This young generation now, I've heard

00:31:36.460 --> 00:31:39.140
that, oh, they don't want to work. And like you

00:31:39.140 --> 00:31:41.059
said, they're not tough. And all they do is play

00:31:41.059 --> 00:31:44.299
on devices. And you're looking at the wrong section.

00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:47.019
And we have that section too. I mean, look at

00:31:47.019 --> 00:31:49.099
the dudes that hang around in Lazy Boys, eat

00:31:49.099 --> 00:31:51.180
chicken wings and watch football and criticize

00:31:51.180 --> 00:31:54.480
athletes from the comfort of their chair that's

00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:56.440
straining under their 300 pounds. That's our

00:31:56.440 --> 00:32:00.400
generation too. We know that guy. Firstly, the

00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:01.880
strength and conditioning world have told me

00:32:01.880 --> 00:32:03.839
that these young applicants are some of the fittest,

00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:06.900
strongest people they've ever had because you

00:32:06.900 --> 00:32:10.799
and I didn't have the luxury of mud runs and

00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:14.559
CrossFit and all these things now that are forging

00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:18.359
true tactical athletes. It's incredible. We relied

00:32:18.359 --> 00:32:20.319
on bodybuilding at best and wonder why we kept

00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:23.279
breaking. But then from the mental health point

00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:27.359
of view, this Gen Z generation... They've been

00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:30.019
raised, hopefully by the good parents, to be

00:32:30.019 --> 00:32:33.059
in touch with their emotions and to value relationships

00:32:33.059 --> 00:32:37.240
and time with siblings and parents. So they would

00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:38.980
be, I think, more open to this conversation.

00:32:39.559 --> 00:32:41.619
But the other layer, and this is an absolutely

00:32:41.619 --> 00:32:44.220
important part of this too, is the same counseling

00:32:44.220 --> 00:32:48.440
is also... sports performance sports teams have

00:32:48.440 --> 00:32:51.720
psychologists and you want that empty mind you're

00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:53.859
that that calm mind to get in that flow state

00:32:53.859 --> 00:32:56.099
on a primary search on an extrication on a rope

00:32:56.099 --> 00:32:58.420
rescue you know so you're not fumble fucking

00:32:58.420 --> 00:33:01.079
on a belay knot or you know getting lost on a

00:33:01.079 --> 00:33:04.089
right hand search so when you put it to them

00:33:04.089 --> 00:33:06.690
that way like well we want you to have longevity

00:33:06.690 --> 00:33:08.869
we want to make sure that on the mental health

00:33:08.869 --> 00:33:11.730
point of view that we're allowing you to offload

00:33:11.730 --> 00:33:14.509
things let me tell you about the majority of

00:33:14.509 --> 00:33:17.029
us we have these things you don't have to tell

00:33:17.029 --> 00:33:18.990
me but i'm pretty sure a lot of you in the room

00:33:18.990 --> 00:33:20.750
have probably got things that you've had in your

00:33:20.750 --> 00:33:23.450
past too so what a beautiful opportunity for

00:33:23.450 --> 00:33:25.970
you guys to be able to work on that but the upside

00:33:25.970 --> 00:33:29.589
is You also then get to forge your mind to be

00:33:29.589 --> 00:33:32.950
a high performing firefighter, paramedic, whatever

00:33:32.950 --> 00:33:36.309
role you're playing. And then you compare back

00:33:36.309 --> 00:33:40.170
to our generation of all the chess beaters that

00:33:40.170 --> 00:33:43.890
talk about being in, you know, into the job who

00:33:43.890 --> 00:33:47.589
haven't raised a finger to try and improve the

00:33:47.589 --> 00:33:49.950
work week in their department. But their firefighters

00:33:49.950 --> 00:33:52.769
are working 56, 80 hour weeks. You got to be

00:33:52.769 --> 00:33:54.349
into the job. Really? You got to be into the

00:33:54.349 --> 00:33:57.059
job. You don't even understand the word performance.

00:33:57.500 --> 00:34:00.200
If you're beating your chest while you're holding

00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:03.980
a halogen and swinging it around, but your firefighters

00:34:03.980 --> 00:34:07.940
are working four sleepless nights a week, you

00:34:07.940 --> 00:34:12.059
have no concept of what performance is. So you

00:34:12.059 --> 00:34:14.599
can actually reel that in and set this young

00:34:14.599 --> 00:34:18.360
generation up for true success. Because now you

00:34:18.360 --> 00:34:20.780
create a work week in an environment that is

00:34:20.780 --> 00:34:23.300
going to forge the highest performing firefighters

00:34:23.300 --> 00:34:26.460
that we've ever had in all the generations. Yeah,

00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:31.500
no, 100%. You know, there's a group I work with,

00:34:31.579 --> 00:34:33.980
Leadership Under Fire. We do a lot of mental

00:34:33.980 --> 00:34:39.079
resilience and, you know, sport psychology in

00:34:39.079 --> 00:34:46.429
what we do. And it's funny because... Sometimes

00:34:46.429 --> 00:34:48.769
there's those in the unit or in the group that

00:34:48.769 --> 00:34:51.710
are very strong on, look, when we say mental

00:34:51.710 --> 00:34:53.630
resiliency, we're not talking about the kind

00:34:53.630 --> 00:34:57.309
of mental resiliency you're thinking of. Or my

00:34:57.309 --> 00:34:59.550
sister being a suicide prevention coach and things

00:34:59.550 --> 00:35:03.349
like that. But you just brought up a good point.

00:35:03.409 --> 00:35:07.090
It really is all tied into itself. It's all interwoven.

00:35:07.130 --> 00:35:10.190
The mental resiliency that I can develop in the

00:35:10.190 --> 00:35:13.530
fire service to have a flow state. to be in a

00:35:13.530 --> 00:35:18.269
in a position of um of challenge stress not fight

00:35:18.269 --> 00:35:21.050
or flight flight stress is because my brain is

00:35:21.050 --> 00:35:23.389
clear yeah i don't have these things about i

00:35:23.389 --> 00:35:25.329
got just got an argument with my wife i just

00:35:25.329 --> 00:35:27.170
had this i had all these other things going on

00:35:27.170 --> 00:35:32.130
i'm focused and ready to go um so that i you

00:35:32.130 --> 00:35:34.949
know it's the first time anybody's ever put the

00:35:34.949 --> 00:35:37.389
two together for me and that that to me makes

00:35:37.389 --> 00:35:40.519
perfectly you know fantastic sense you know one

00:35:40.519 --> 00:35:42.519
of the things that we mentioned or that you brought

00:35:42.519 --> 00:35:46.900
up which is a key point is that you know when

00:35:46.900 --> 00:35:49.420
i say that we have to start back here we have

00:35:49.420 --> 00:35:51.800
to move our way through this and get people you

00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:55.360
know have a generation to change it um obviously

00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:58.079
the biggest thing there is buy -in it's it's

00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:02.019
buy -in from those troops and you're right that

00:36:02.019 --> 00:36:07.440
recliner chest pounding reclining guy they can't

00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:10.500
we have to push them eventually out the door

00:36:10.500 --> 00:36:13.000
they either need to change and become part of

00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:16.239
it because you're going to have to have you know

00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:18.559
if i'm going to tell people if i'm the assistant

00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:20.780
fire chief and i am or the fire chief and i'm

00:36:20.780 --> 00:36:22.579
going to the city asking for all kinds of money

00:36:22.579 --> 00:36:25.860
for a fourth platoon so i can get people rest

00:36:25.860 --> 00:36:29.940
for for uh mental health coaches mental performance

00:36:29.940 --> 00:36:32.699
coaches for tactical athlete you know coaches

00:36:32.699 --> 00:36:36.219
for all these other things uh for dietitians

00:36:36.650 --> 00:36:39.610
for pt people if i'm going to do all of that

00:36:39.610 --> 00:36:46.130
i can't have the local tell me that they're going

00:36:46.130 --> 00:36:49.050
to fight it tooth and nail i can't have that

00:36:49.050 --> 00:36:52.150
it's never going to work and the only reason

00:36:52.150 --> 00:36:57.409
that in my opinion is that they fight it is because

00:36:57.409 --> 00:37:00.070
we still have those recliner riders we still

00:37:00.070 --> 00:37:03.409
have those guys and they we shouldn't i mean

00:37:03.409 --> 00:37:05.320
i'm not saying they shouldn't be there what i

00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:07.460
mean is that we should care about them enough

00:37:07.460 --> 00:37:11.900
we should truly be the union strength you know

00:37:11.900 --> 00:37:16.639
strength through many and tell them that we let's

00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:18.460
go back to what i said earlier we want them to

00:37:18.460 --> 00:37:20.619
have the longest pension possible and you're

00:37:20.619 --> 00:37:23.880
not going to do it when you're 350 pounds so

00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:27.639
you know let's not even talk about your job ability

00:37:28.119 --> 00:37:30.599
Let's just talk about you and your personal life

00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:32.980
retiring and going off into the riding into the

00:37:32.980 --> 00:37:35.760
sunset, enjoying your life, not being, you know,

00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:38.900
on a thousand pills and having a bad health.

00:37:39.179 --> 00:37:42.539
I mean, having a bad, you know, bad health. So

00:37:42.539 --> 00:37:48.920
I just. You know. We need to get the buy in and

00:37:48.920 --> 00:37:50.900
the union has to be on board with this. And you're

00:37:50.900 --> 00:37:53.480
right. You're right. It's cowardice. You know,

00:37:53.480 --> 00:37:58.230
I again, I look at it now. And I say, and we've

00:37:58.230 --> 00:38:01.250
had this conversation, why in the heck was I

00:38:01.250 --> 00:38:07.809
working 16 hours more a week just because? Why?

00:38:08.449 --> 00:38:12.269
You know, we brought it up earlier, I know, in

00:38:12.269 --> 00:38:15.210
the conversation when you were on our podcast

00:38:15.210 --> 00:38:19.170
about why do we start at 7 o 'clock or why do

00:38:19.170 --> 00:38:21.449
we start at 8 o 'clock? I was listening to a

00:38:21.449 --> 00:38:27.369
firefighter the other day. Their tours change

00:38:27.369 --> 00:38:32.389
at 0700. And they're required to be up by 530

00:38:32.389 --> 00:38:37.849
in the morning to change at 0700. Insanity. He

00:38:37.849 --> 00:38:40.329
says, we don't ever, we're literally, we run

00:38:40.329 --> 00:38:42.429
by the time we finally get, you know, we might

00:38:42.429 --> 00:38:44.530
get in at four o 'clock. We get a half hour and

00:38:44.530 --> 00:38:46.150
they're banging on the door. Get up. You have

00:38:46.150 --> 00:38:48.130
to be up. You have to be up. It's shift change.

00:38:49.409 --> 00:38:53.869
And I asked him, I said, well, why? Well, because

00:38:53.869 --> 00:38:58.090
we have to. Okay. I said, how about if you change

00:38:58.090 --> 00:39:03.090
at noon? Why don't you change at noon? I don't

00:39:03.090 --> 00:39:05.630
know. Because we changed at seven. I said, but

00:39:05.630 --> 00:39:09.050
why? I don't know. And I said, well, would you

00:39:09.050 --> 00:39:10.650
like to change at noon? He said, oh, that'd be

00:39:10.650 --> 00:39:13.309
awesome. We could sleep in if we were working

00:39:13.309 --> 00:39:16.809
and I wouldn't have to get up at 5 .30 when I'm

00:39:16.809 --> 00:39:20.829
off. I could actually have some sleep time. Oh,

00:39:20.889 --> 00:39:23.670
what a concept. But the fact is, is that he never

00:39:23.670 --> 00:39:26.730
thought about it. Because we change at seven.

00:39:27.389 --> 00:39:34.190
That's it. It's crazy. It's crazy. It is. When

00:39:34.190 --> 00:39:37.829
someone told me about the start time difference,

00:39:37.949 --> 00:39:41.110
that was only three years ago, probably. Someone

00:39:41.110 --> 00:39:43.469
brought it up and I just literally probably actually

00:39:43.469 --> 00:39:47.550
facepalmed. And that makes so much sense. And

00:39:47.550 --> 00:39:50.550
as I think we spoke on your podcast. If you're

00:39:50.550 --> 00:39:53.429
doing a 24 hour shift, it's a dial. You can spin

00:39:53.429 --> 00:39:56.730
that dial wherever you want. But what blows me

00:39:56.730 --> 00:39:59.670
away is the conversation. The only conversation

00:39:59.670 --> 00:40:03.210
I've heard is like, oh, we could do 7 p .m. Like,

00:40:03.250 --> 00:40:06.030
why still the number? Why are you hanging on

00:40:06.030 --> 00:40:09.469
to that number now at 7 p .m.? Why 11 or 12?

00:40:09.550 --> 00:40:12.449
Just like you said, ongoing shift can sleep in

00:40:12.449 --> 00:40:14.909
after getting murdered all night and then get

00:40:14.909 --> 00:40:17.050
up, you know, wash the rig for the next crew.

00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:19.880
have coffee, then they come in. The oncoming

00:40:19.880 --> 00:40:23.800
crew wakes up. And as I highlighted in our conversation,

00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:27.559
24, 48, you only see your family. Well, I certainly

00:40:27.559 --> 00:40:30.219
did one out of every three mornings because the

00:40:30.219 --> 00:40:31.940
first morning I'm up at five and out the door,

00:40:31.960 --> 00:40:34.059
they're all asleep. Second morning, they've all

00:40:34.059 --> 00:40:36.659
gone to school and work. Third morning, I actually

00:40:36.659 --> 00:40:39.300
wake up with them. So now you add a second morning

00:40:39.300 --> 00:40:41.760
where you wake up, have breakfast with your family,

00:40:41.940 --> 00:40:44.920
take the kids to school or preschool. then go

00:40:44.920 --> 00:40:48.539
to the station miss rush hour both ways it makes

00:40:48.539 --> 00:40:51.360
perfect sense and again well because we've always

00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:54.159
done it that way and i heard a guest he was a

00:40:54.159 --> 00:40:56.119
spanish businessman like argentinian i think

00:40:56.119 --> 00:40:58.699
he was and he's talking about his father had

00:40:58.699 --> 00:41:01.219
the rule of i think it was three whys just like

00:41:01.219 --> 00:41:04.260
you said why do we do this oh because we've always

00:41:04.260 --> 00:41:08.360
done it but why most arguments will fall at the

00:41:08.360 --> 00:41:10.599
second why because you realize you can't justify

00:41:10.599 --> 00:41:12.699
it if he said if you make it to the third why

00:41:13.320 --> 00:41:15.900
Like, why do you need water? Well, it hydrates

00:41:15.900 --> 00:41:18.219
me. Why? Because my cells need it. Okay, you

00:41:18.219 --> 00:41:20.380
really need water. You really need to breathe.

00:41:20.719 --> 00:41:23.579
But a lot of these other things, if it can't

00:41:23.579 --> 00:41:26.659
pass the three whys or even two whys, then there's

00:41:26.659 --> 00:41:29.699
a beautiful opportunity for change. No, I mean,

00:41:29.739 --> 00:41:41.739
James, I honestly, your listeners know you're

00:41:41.739 --> 00:41:44.539
an amazing podcast. And you're an amazing individual.

00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:51.360
And I have not, for those listening, probably

00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:55.039
a week ago, we did a podcast. He was on our show.

00:41:56.519 --> 00:42:00.880
I have not stopped talking about you. And I'm

00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:02.400
not telling you this because you're like, oh,

00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:05.699
put you on a pedestal. But the reality is this.

00:42:07.099 --> 00:42:10.380
If I was still working, if I was still assistant

00:42:10.380 --> 00:42:13.559
chief, And I heard some of the things you mentioned,

00:42:13.639 --> 00:42:15.920
because we've been trying to get a fourth platoon.

00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:18.699
We were trying to get a fourth platoon when I

00:42:18.699 --> 00:42:21.440
was there. They're trying to get it now. They're

00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:23.840
trying to convince the city that it's worth it,

00:42:23.860 --> 00:42:26.820
that it saves money. It saves the overtime, all

00:42:26.820 --> 00:42:32.360
those other things. But literally, the things

00:42:32.360 --> 00:42:36.860
that you bring to the forefront, I just, I listened

00:42:36.860 --> 00:42:39.920
to, and I've listened to several of your podcasts,

00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:43.860
and I think. why didn't i think of that how come

00:42:43.860 --> 00:42:46.800
it takes james gearing to think of that well

00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:49.239
it's not me let me just jump in it it is not

00:42:49.239 --> 00:42:52.460
me it's a thousand guests so all of that wisdom

00:42:52.460 --> 00:42:55.699
is not james gearing i'm just the conduit saying

00:42:55.699 --> 00:42:58.179
hey this person over here has a really good idea

00:42:58.179 --> 00:43:01.800
about sleep back pain whatever and all of us

00:43:01.800 --> 00:43:03.559
don't sleep and we've all got back pain maybe

00:43:03.559 --> 00:43:06.380
we should listen to that person so nothing that

00:43:06.380 --> 00:43:09.099
i talk about is is my own thought i wish i was

00:43:09.099 --> 00:43:11.780
intelligent well then you're the conduit but

00:43:11.780 --> 00:43:13.739
either way you're bringing it to the forefront

00:43:13.739 --> 00:43:16.840
and and i just and i look at the for example

00:43:16.840 --> 00:43:19.980
the hour of shift change and i just think the

00:43:19.980 --> 00:43:23.000
same thing is that there is no reason there is

00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:26.340
no why that can be answered you know it's it's

00:43:27.500 --> 00:43:30.420
The fire service is, as we all know, it's, you

00:43:30.420 --> 00:43:33.980
know, Milwaukee, it's 150 years of tradition,

00:43:34.219 --> 00:43:38.719
not impeded by progress. Because we just do things

00:43:38.719 --> 00:43:44.519
this way. You know, I think of the alarms, the

00:43:44.519 --> 00:43:46.860
alerting systems, and how they've changed over

00:43:46.860 --> 00:43:49.599
the years. You know, we literally, when I started,

00:43:49.699 --> 00:43:53.119
it was the klaxon and the lights coming on. So

00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:57.460
you went from asleep to bang, get up. Well, obviously

00:43:57.460 --> 00:43:59.639
that didn't work well for our hearts. That wasn't

00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:02.440
good for us. And we've slowly, you know, maturely

00:44:02.440 --> 00:44:08.099
changed it. So maybe, not maybe, it's time to

00:44:08.099 --> 00:44:12.500
start making change. It's time to let's, you

00:44:12.500 --> 00:44:16.139
know, if we have this crisis, we have this crisis

00:44:16.139 --> 00:44:19.059
of people not coming, applying for the job as

00:44:19.059 --> 00:44:22.760
they used to. We have a horrible retention problem.

00:44:23.210 --> 00:44:25.329
People are leaving, going to other jobs. They're

00:44:25.329 --> 00:44:27.210
coming into the fire service. We're spending,

00:44:27.349 --> 00:44:28.849
you know, in the city of Milwaukee, I think it

00:44:28.849 --> 00:44:31.889
cost them $80 ,000 to make them paramedics. We

00:44:31.889 --> 00:44:34.650
spend probably another $60 ,000 to get them through

00:44:34.650 --> 00:44:38.909
our fire academy. So we have money invested in

00:44:38.909 --> 00:44:41.409
these individuals and they're leaving us. We

00:44:41.409 --> 00:44:43.889
had a gentleman from a community down the street,

00:44:44.309 --> 00:44:47.829
not Milwaukee, but one of the suburbs. He was

00:44:47.829 --> 00:44:50.389
on the job. He came on and he had just basically

00:44:50.389 --> 00:44:54.519
completed his year. So the fire chief is quitting,

00:44:54.639 --> 00:44:56.159
and the fire chief said, why are you going to

00:44:56.159 --> 00:44:57.800
another fire department? He says, no, I think

00:44:57.800 --> 00:45:03.380
I'm going to go drive school bus. He said, say

00:45:03.380 --> 00:45:06.039
that again? You're giving up a pension? You're

00:45:06.039 --> 00:45:08.099
giving up all this stuff? He goes, yeah, it's

00:45:08.099 --> 00:45:11.639
just not the schedule. I don't know. It's just

00:45:11.639 --> 00:45:16.320
not gelling for me. And nobody would have done

00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:19.329
that when I was working. So there's something

00:45:19.329 --> 00:45:21.949
going on. There's a different group of individuals.

00:45:22.110 --> 00:45:24.809
Let's take advantage of them. Not take advantage

00:45:24.809 --> 00:45:26.949
of them. Let's take advantage of who they are.

00:45:27.170 --> 00:45:31.469
Let's learn what they need and what they want.

00:45:32.010 --> 00:45:34.090
And let's make them the best firefighters we

00:45:34.090 --> 00:45:38.929
possibly can. Why not? What does it hurt? What

00:45:38.929 --> 00:45:43.469
is it? What? What? Tradition? Tradition? Really?

00:45:43.710 --> 00:45:46.429
What tradition? So what tradition is more valuable

00:45:46.429 --> 00:45:48.769
than our employees? What's tradition is more

00:45:48.769 --> 00:45:53.489
valuable than our brothers and sisters, you know,

00:45:53.489 --> 00:45:56.909
because you summed it up. If the union is not

00:45:56.909 --> 00:46:02.510
fighting for a, for a four platoon system for

00:46:02.510 --> 00:46:07.849
a 24 72, they're not, that's not courageous.

00:46:09.250 --> 00:46:11.170
Well, I'd say the same with the fitness standards

00:46:11.170 --> 00:46:13.010
go and circling back to what you said earlier,

00:46:13.070 --> 00:46:18.579
when you have a standard that, is extremely easy

00:46:18.579 --> 00:46:21.500
to hold people do if they've gone through a proper

00:46:21.500 --> 00:46:24.340
fire academy a decent fire academy that is an

00:46:24.340 --> 00:46:26.860
easy easy standard let's say for example the

00:46:26.860 --> 00:46:29.460
c -pat or fire sled has i think it's the f -pat

00:46:29.460 --> 00:46:31.820
they call theirs but you know you're moving hose

00:46:31.820 --> 00:46:34.099
you're carrying a ladder you're dragging a dummy

00:46:34.099 --> 00:46:36.340
the things that you have to be able to do as

00:46:36.340 --> 00:46:39.079
a firefighter which would transition into extrication

00:46:39.079 --> 00:46:41.440
and other things and you hold them as standard

00:46:41.440 --> 00:46:45.840
at the front door you are forging physical performance

00:46:46.699 --> 00:46:49.300
And you are forging longevity, just like you

00:46:49.300 --> 00:46:51.960
said, these heart diseases, these strokes, these

00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:55.900
byproducts of obesity that we see kill so many

00:46:55.900 --> 00:46:58.380
of our men and women. And if it's not at least

00:46:58.380 --> 00:47:00.400
in the uniform, then it's shortly after because

00:47:00.400 --> 00:47:03.300
we don't count retirees in any way, shape or

00:47:03.300 --> 00:47:05.400
form as far as statistics. People ask me, how

00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:08.940
many firefighters do we lose? No one knows. No

00:47:08.940 --> 00:47:11.260
one has a clue because there is no VA for first

00:47:11.260 --> 00:47:15.300
responders. But if you are opposing an initiative.

00:47:16.289 --> 00:47:19.389
that, and I say this all the time, in Florida,

00:47:19.670 --> 00:47:22.949
your fire certification is literally labeled

00:47:22.949 --> 00:47:26.730
minimum standards. This is the shittest you should

00:47:26.730 --> 00:47:30.090
ever be your entire fucking career. And then

00:47:30.090 --> 00:47:33.949
you're held to an arguably pretty piss easy standard,

00:47:34.130 --> 00:47:37.250
which is a 10 minute, 20 second CPAP, for example.

00:47:38.110 --> 00:47:40.269
That's all you're asking. And there's an opposition

00:47:40.269 --> 00:47:44.619
for that. Oh, you're trying to take jobs. Tell

00:47:44.619 --> 00:47:46.940
that to Delta. Tell that to the Navy SEALs. Tell

00:47:46.940 --> 00:47:49.619
that to the ocean lifeguards in Hawaii. Oh, you're

00:47:49.619 --> 00:47:51.039
trying to take my job because you're making me

00:47:51.039 --> 00:47:54.960
swim. Like, really? You know, at some point you've

00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:56.679
got to take a step back. And it's the same with

00:47:56.679 --> 00:47:58.260
the work week. It's the same with the access

00:47:58.260 --> 00:48:01.559
to the mental health. At what point are you going

00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:04.579
to acknowledge that some areas are completely

00:48:04.579 --> 00:48:06.920
broken and you've just simply been doing it wrong?

00:48:07.219 --> 00:48:11.960
And that is reflected on the excitement of young.

00:48:12.599 --> 00:48:15.880
potential firefighters you know or lack of excitement

00:48:15.880 --> 00:48:18.260
coming into our profession and it is the most

00:48:18.260 --> 00:48:21.239
beautiful honorable job this is why you still

00:48:21.239 --> 00:48:23.599
talk about it after you know transitioning out

00:48:23.599 --> 00:48:25.960
it's what i do because we love this profession

00:48:25.960 --> 00:48:30.019
but the way that we've built the work week and

00:48:30.019 --> 00:48:33.719
the lack of standards around it has created this

00:48:33.719 --> 00:48:36.579
and probably that gentleman that decided to drive

00:48:36.579 --> 00:48:40.269
a school bus If he'd been in a very, very competitive

00:48:40.269 --> 00:48:43.690
testing process like it was 10, 15, 20 years

00:48:43.690 --> 00:48:45.989
ago, he probably wouldn't have made it because

00:48:45.989 --> 00:48:47.849
at some point you will realize, ah, this isn't

00:48:47.849 --> 00:48:49.869
really worth it. But you're getting all those

00:48:49.869 --> 00:48:52.750
people now. No disrespect to him, but we're getting

00:48:52.750 --> 00:48:54.710
people whose heart isn't in it because we're

00:48:54.710 --> 00:48:57.230
lowering standards and we're scooping up. Like

00:48:57.230 --> 00:48:59.110
locally here, Marion County is now trying to

00:48:59.110 --> 00:49:01.769
get 18 year old high school students. We know

00:49:01.769 --> 00:49:04.210
neurologically that it's not even safe to get

00:49:04.210 --> 00:49:07.059
an 18 year old. to start working in a busy downtown

00:49:07.059 --> 00:49:09.719
station, 24 hours getting murdered on a rescue.

00:49:10.139 --> 00:49:13.159
So this is, you know, this all ties in together

00:49:13.159 --> 00:49:16.920
where if you want those excited, you know, hard

00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:19.500
charges, then you have to fix the things that

00:49:19.500 --> 00:49:24.559
are broken. So we attract the excited, hard charges

00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:28.880
because they're not stupid. They know what performance

00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:31.429
looks like. And I hate to tell you, you know,

00:49:31.429 --> 00:49:33.829
American Fire Service, but a lot of these departments

00:49:33.829 --> 00:49:36.690
from the outside looking in, you know, some of

00:49:36.690 --> 00:49:38.989
these men and women that get off rigs, they are

00:49:38.989 --> 00:49:41.949
not screaming performance at all. And that discourages

00:49:41.949 --> 00:49:45.050
these young people from joining them. No, you

00:49:45.050 --> 00:49:47.730
know, there's so much to unpack in what you just

00:49:47.730 --> 00:49:50.710
said. Starting with, I do look at the European

00:49:50.710 --> 00:49:53.289
Fire Service, for example, and I know that we

00:49:53.289 --> 00:49:55.030
do things different. It's a different world.

00:49:55.090 --> 00:49:58.059
I get all that. But they treat it. at least for

00:49:58.059 --> 00:50:00.920
those i know whether it be i i have some interest

00:50:00.920 --> 00:50:04.000
some understanding of germany and of of uh belgium

00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:07.880
and it's it's they treat it like the military

00:50:07.880 --> 00:50:10.059
or maybe they are a branch of the military i

00:50:10.059 --> 00:50:12.079
don't know but but they're they have to be in

00:50:12.079 --> 00:50:14.260
shape they have to you know they they they're

00:50:14.260 --> 00:50:19.519
they're all about being squared away and i agree

00:50:19.519 --> 00:50:22.199
with you i have a you know i always had a problem

00:50:22.199 --> 00:50:25.730
when people would talk about um we have to do

00:50:25.730 --> 00:50:28.090
this to we have to lower the standard to lower

00:50:28.090 --> 00:50:29.829
that standard to get more minorities we have

00:50:29.829 --> 00:50:31.329
to do this for that and i'd say that you know

00:50:31.329 --> 00:50:34.550
what that's a bunch of crap that's all crap because

00:50:34.550 --> 00:50:38.869
i rolled backwards with men and women that were

00:50:38.869 --> 00:50:41.210
all different colors and all different beliefs

00:50:41.210 --> 00:50:43.969
and they all went through the same experience

00:50:43.969 --> 00:50:46.090
i did they all went through the same fire academy

00:50:46.090 --> 00:50:49.690
and they were all as good actually they were

00:50:49.690 --> 00:50:52.429
all better than me but they were we were all

00:50:52.429 --> 00:50:55.500
the same So we don't have to lower standards.

00:50:55.679 --> 00:51:01.500
And I think that what you said is vitally important,

00:51:01.860 --> 00:51:06.199
and I think we're missing it. And that is that

00:51:06.199 --> 00:51:09.679
if we make it something that people want to be

00:51:09.679 --> 00:51:17.179
part of, a challenge, we start there and we say,

00:51:17.219 --> 00:51:20.420
look, this isn't for everybody. And it's okay.

00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:23.639
It took me years to realize just because you

00:51:23.639 --> 00:51:25.280
weren't a good firefighter doesn't mean that

00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:27.340
you shouldn't still be able to. You know, I used

00:51:27.340 --> 00:51:30.579
to call them oxygen thieves because if you weren't

00:51:30.579 --> 00:51:32.559
a good fireman, you were an oxygen thief. And

00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:36.800
the fact is, that's not true. I'm an idiot. You

00:51:36.800 --> 00:51:40.219
know, you can be a wonderful human being and

00:51:40.219 --> 00:51:42.340
just really not find firefighting to be your

00:51:42.340 --> 00:51:46.539
game. And it took me years to see that. But it

00:51:46.539 --> 00:51:50.030
is back to life, folks. you can actually be a

00:51:50.030 --> 00:51:51.969
good human being and not be a good firefighter

00:51:51.969 --> 00:51:58.429
but but beyond that if you're right i didn't

00:51:58.429 --> 00:52:00.389
you know these are good things i think about

00:52:00.389 --> 00:52:03.269
is that when you bring them up if if i go to

00:52:03.269 --> 00:52:06.510
a firehouse and i see a bunch of guys that i

00:52:06.510 --> 00:52:08.449
think firefighters are i'll give you an example

00:52:08.449 --> 00:52:11.489
i said this to you once before i think that i

00:52:11.489 --> 00:52:17.050
took a friend of mine to a to fdic he was a physical

00:52:17.050 --> 00:52:20.179
fitness coach He wanted to, this is literally

00:52:20.179 --> 00:52:22.519
20 years ago, he wanted to get an idea of what

00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:26.219
firefighters do so he could work with clients

00:52:26.219 --> 00:52:30.019
that were firefighters. Two things he came up

00:52:30.019 --> 00:52:33.260
with. First thing he came up with, he said, the

00:52:33.260 --> 00:52:35.159
whole New York Fire Department must be here because

00:52:35.159 --> 00:52:37.980
everybody's wearing a shirt that says FDNY. And

00:52:37.980 --> 00:52:40.280
I said, yeah, just because they have a shirt

00:52:40.280 --> 00:52:42.099
on doesn't mean that they work for New York.

00:52:42.219 --> 00:52:44.440
And he was like, well, why would you wear a shirt

00:52:44.440 --> 00:52:46.380
if you don't work for the fire department? Long

00:52:46.380 --> 00:52:52.449
story. The other thing he said was, I thought

00:52:52.449 --> 00:52:54.690
you guys were in shape. I've never seen somebody

00:52:54.690 --> 00:52:58.630
out of shape, overweight, fat guys in my life.

00:52:59.690 --> 00:53:01.829
I really thought the fire service was different.

00:53:02.010 --> 00:53:08.949
I really did. And to me, somebody that considers

00:53:08.949 --> 00:53:15.110
it a true profession, a true craft, and I'm a

00:53:15.110 --> 00:53:19.219
believer in. You give up the right to be a fat

00:53:19.219 --> 00:53:24.599
ass. You give up that right. Because your life

00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:29.739
depends on me being able to do my job. And vice

00:53:29.739 --> 00:53:33.679
versa. So you give up that right. And we unfortunately,

00:53:33.900 --> 00:53:36.820
we don't hold anybody to a standard. Like you

00:53:36.820 --> 00:53:40.159
said, our job was notorious for guys come out

00:53:40.159 --> 00:53:43.659
of the training academy. I was 165 coming out

00:53:43.659 --> 00:53:45.940
of the academy. And I maintained that weight.

00:53:47.819 --> 00:53:52.519
Most of my career, at least half of it, probably

00:53:52.519 --> 00:53:57.420
I put on a lot of muscle. Not that I was Schwarzenegger,

00:53:57.480 --> 00:53:59.980
but I was very thin when I was in the academy.

00:54:00.460 --> 00:54:02.539
And when I got to the engine house I got to,

00:54:02.619 --> 00:54:05.340
it was a bunch of guys in their 30s and 40s who

00:54:05.340 --> 00:54:07.400
were really into fitness. And they were like,

00:54:07.420 --> 00:54:10.780
kid, you ain't ever going to do this job if we

00:54:10.780 --> 00:54:12.840
don't put some weight on you. So they brought

00:54:12.840 --> 00:54:16.559
me up to like 190. i'd like to say it was all

00:54:16.559 --> 00:54:20.960
lean muscle but probably not but the the uh the

00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:25.340
point is is that there were other people and

00:54:25.340 --> 00:54:31.019
more often than not guys came in the door of

00:54:31.019 --> 00:54:34.860
the firehouse at 165 like me and by the time

00:54:34.860 --> 00:54:36.500
they had their year on it was like when they

00:54:36.500 --> 00:54:39.079
call it the college 20 or whatever freshman they

00:54:39.079 --> 00:54:44.920
were they were they were 210 pounds I mean, they'd

00:54:44.920 --> 00:54:50.179
gained like 20, 30 pounds. But nobody told them,

00:54:50.219 --> 00:54:53.099
hey, that's unacceptable. You know, they looked

00:54:53.099 --> 00:54:55.699
at the guy, I'm going to pick on chauffeurs because

00:54:55.699 --> 00:54:58.440
we always do. They looked at the chauffeur sitting

00:54:58.440 --> 00:55:02.179
with ice cream on his belly watching the TV in

00:55:02.179 --> 00:55:04.300
a recliner and said, well, I can grow up and

00:55:04.300 --> 00:55:06.900
work on being that. I mean, we don't hold the

00:55:06.900 --> 00:55:12.780
standard. The problem is, at least my experience.

00:55:14.730 --> 00:55:17.489
is the union doesn't allow us to. They fight

00:55:17.489 --> 00:55:19.250
it because they say we're trying to take their

00:55:19.250 --> 00:55:22.110
jobs. And I always told them, look, I'm not trying

00:55:22.110 --> 00:55:25.809
to take anybody's job. I'm willing to set a scale.

00:55:26.710 --> 00:55:30.230
When you're 22, I expect you to run sub eight

00:55:30.230 --> 00:55:34.030
minute miles. When you're 32, I'd expect you

00:55:34.030 --> 00:55:36.690
to run a 10 minute mile and so on and so forth.

00:55:36.909 --> 00:55:39.389
So I understand you're going to age. Things are

00:55:39.389 --> 00:55:40.849
going to be different. But the military has been

00:55:40.849 --> 00:55:45.400
doing it for years. You know, it's. It reminds

00:55:45.400 --> 00:55:47.780
me of, I saw something the other day that said,

00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:55.099
chiefs and officers shouldn't ever be, should

00:55:55.099 --> 00:55:58.159
always come up through all the ranks, or they're

00:55:58.159 --> 00:56:00.900
going to be lousy. They won't be good chiefs

00:56:00.900 --> 00:56:02.860
and officers. And I started to think about that

00:56:02.860 --> 00:56:04.860
for a minute, and I thought, well, I wonder how

00:56:04.860 --> 00:56:07.619
the military does it. Because I don't know a

00:56:07.619 --> 00:56:10.619
single officer, unless you're a Mustang, but

00:56:10.619 --> 00:56:14.159
very rarely are officers enlisted. They're officers

00:56:14.159 --> 00:56:17.739
from day one. So somehow it works there. And

00:56:17.739 --> 00:56:20.980
I think that this goes back to the same thing

00:56:20.980 --> 00:56:23.719
of, well, if it works in the military that they

00:56:23.719 --> 00:56:27.199
have a sliding scale of physical fitness, why

00:56:27.199 --> 00:56:30.300
can't it work in the fire service? And why can't

00:56:30.300 --> 00:56:33.059
the unions get on board and get behind it? Because

00:56:33.059 --> 00:56:40.159
if we are truly caring about our brothers and

00:56:40.159 --> 00:56:43.699
sisters, and we... It's not just some hyperbole

00:56:43.699 --> 00:56:47.059
that we say, but we truly care about them. We

00:56:47.059 --> 00:56:48.860
would make sure they're in good physical shape.

00:56:49.019 --> 00:56:51.860
They're mentally squared away. They're not becoming

00:56:51.860 --> 00:56:54.800
alcoholics. All of these other things, their

00:56:54.800 --> 00:56:58.179
marriages are, we're doing our best to keep giving

00:56:58.179 --> 00:57:00.000
them opportunities to find counseling for their

00:57:00.000 --> 00:57:02.659
marriages. So on and so forth. I mean, it's,

00:57:02.699 --> 00:57:07.139
or are we just putting up a side that we care

00:57:07.139 --> 00:57:09.980
about our brothers and sisters? Next. You know,

00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:12.550
it goes back to the same thing. tomorrow and

00:57:12.550 --> 00:57:15.570
i remember this in the uh in the uh worcester

00:57:15.570 --> 00:57:20.530
six because i went to that too and there was

00:57:20.530 --> 00:57:24.110
a fire chief there that might have been theirs

00:57:24.110 --> 00:57:40.590
somebody spoke and they said tomorrow this Today

00:57:40.590 --> 00:57:44.889
that you're all here for this funeral. And tomorrow,

00:57:45.090 --> 00:57:49.489
you're going to go back to your day. And you're

00:57:49.489 --> 00:57:52.690
going to go back to the life you live. And you

00:57:52.690 --> 00:57:56.250
may speak of how beautiful is the wrong term,

00:57:56.329 --> 00:58:00.429
but what the pomp and circumstance of this funeral

00:58:00.429 --> 00:58:12.980
was, six members lost line of duty. But. Those

00:58:12.980 --> 00:58:15.360
families have to continue on without a husband,

00:58:15.480 --> 00:58:23.360
a father, a brother. And politicians who stood

00:58:23.360 --> 00:58:26.280
up here and gave us their word that we're not

00:58:26.280 --> 00:58:27.900
going to allow things like this to ever happen

00:58:27.900 --> 00:58:30.980
again will go back to their offices and will

00:58:30.980 --> 00:58:33.119
continue their business. And it will be another

00:58:33.119 --> 00:58:37.039
day for them. And that'll be that. And I'm generalizing.

00:58:37.059 --> 00:58:40.869
I'm not putting everybody in that category. It

00:58:40.869 --> 00:58:45.190
really moved me. It reminded me that, no, they're

00:58:45.190 --> 00:58:50.070
right. We can't have things like yesterday and

00:58:50.070 --> 00:58:54.150
then just go, well, hopefully we won't have this

00:58:54.150 --> 00:58:58.250
happen for a while yet. We just can't. And I

00:58:58.250 --> 00:59:00.670
can tell you, I mean, I look at it and I say

00:59:00.670 --> 00:59:06.030
that I am going to do something. I haven't figured

00:59:06.030 --> 00:59:08.190
out what yet, but we're going to do something.

00:59:08.309 --> 00:59:12.340
We're going to push forward. on changing that

00:59:12.340 --> 00:59:14.820
culture, changing the culture in our service,

00:59:14.960 --> 00:59:17.719
changing the culture in the job we love. Because

00:59:17.719 --> 00:59:22.760
these kids deserve it. They deserve it. We have

00:59:22.760 --> 00:59:30.679
to do it. We can't just, we can't keep doing

00:59:30.679 --> 00:59:32.519
the same thing and expecting things to change,

00:59:32.639 --> 00:59:35.820
period. And that's where I, you know, I'll just

00:59:35.820 --> 00:59:38.099
end with this. That's where I... You, I think,

00:59:38.099 --> 00:59:39.780
are doing such a marvelous job because you're

00:59:39.780 --> 00:59:42.860
bringing all these people in. And you're bringing

00:59:42.860 --> 00:59:45.760
people in with different ideas, different thoughts,

00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:48.460
people that have been to the wall, people that

00:59:48.460 --> 00:59:54.139
have stepped off the bridge and realized, oh,

00:59:54.280 --> 00:59:58.219
as soon as I left, reality struck in. You know,

00:59:58.219 --> 01:00:03.960
reality hit. Uh -oh. That's huge. That's huge.

01:00:04.179 --> 01:00:07.579
Anyway, sorry. No, no, it was brilliant. I think

01:00:07.579 --> 01:00:12.920
this is just it. Because I decided to really

01:00:12.920 --> 01:00:15.619
make a vast spectrum when it came to the guests,

01:00:15.800 --> 01:00:19.619
what I found myself doing was talking to, again,

01:00:19.679 --> 01:00:21.679
lots of people in the military, but including

01:00:21.679 --> 01:00:23.679
their strength and conditioning coaches, their

01:00:23.679 --> 01:00:26.960
mental health coaches, you know, the sleep experts,

01:00:27.119 --> 01:00:29.579
you know, within the army, the navy, I mean,

01:00:29.579 --> 01:00:32.340
all the branches. And so then you start seeing,

01:00:32.440 --> 01:00:34.039
well, wait a second, you know, now and again,

01:00:34.079 --> 01:00:36.280
not to say that the army or the military was

01:00:36.280 --> 01:00:39.340
super progressive, like the Navy, John Cordell

01:00:39.340 --> 01:00:42.480
was on the show. It was that horrendous wreck

01:00:42.480 --> 01:00:44.639
where, you know, the ships collided and they

01:00:44.639 --> 01:00:47.119
lost, you know, a bunch of sailors that they

01:00:47.119 --> 01:00:49.960
actually started going, oh, maybe we need to

01:00:49.960 --> 01:00:51.519
look at, you know, the way that we're doing shift

01:00:51.519 --> 01:00:54.539
work in the Navy. And you look at the actual

01:00:54.539 --> 01:00:59.289
backstory of everything from. the Exxon Valdez

01:00:59.289 --> 01:01:05.130
to Fukushima, I think, the nuclear disaster there.

01:01:05.190 --> 01:01:08.230
I mean, all these massive incidents, more often

01:01:08.230 --> 01:01:10.349
than not, sleep deprivation was a massive contributing

01:01:10.349 --> 01:01:13.750
element. And even with the weight conversation,

01:01:14.110 --> 01:01:17.389
I'm always very, very fair. The way that we break

01:01:17.389 --> 01:01:21.380
our first responders promotes weight gain. It

01:01:21.380 --> 01:01:24.699
promotes diabetes. It promotes testosterone depletion.

01:01:24.699 --> 01:01:27.539
It promotes all of these things. So the fit firefighters

01:01:27.539 --> 01:01:30.860
that we see, that's despite the work environment,

01:01:30.940 --> 01:01:32.539
unless they're in the Northeast or somewhere

01:01:32.539 --> 01:01:34.920
that's actually working and a 42 -hour work week

01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:37.579
and it's fully staffed. But the rest of them,

01:01:37.599 --> 01:01:39.159
we're destroying them and we're making it even

01:01:39.159 --> 01:01:42.079
harder for them to be fit. So when you have these

01:01:42.079 --> 01:01:44.360
conversations and setting standards as far as

01:01:44.360 --> 01:01:47.630
fitness. A, you're doing it because you're trying

01:01:47.630 --> 01:01:49.670
to save lives. So anyone who's opposing that,

01:01:49.809 --> 01:01:54.269
shame on you. Secondly, no one. No one is saying,

01:01:54.409 --> 01:01:56.250
okay, you've got to pass this tomorrow or you're

01:01:56.250 --> 01:01:58.690
fired. Not a single person is saying. They're

01:01:58.690 --> 01:02:00.210
saying, okay, we're going to have a standard.

01:02:00.469 --> 01:02:03.670
There's going to be a year -long on -ramp or

01:02:03.670 --> 01:02:07.550
two years to where you have to be. But here's

01:02:07.550 --> 01:02:11.449
the caveat. You cannot be on a rig right now.

01:02:11.670 --> 01:02:15.489
You're 300 pounds. If we need you, like next

01:02:15.489 --> 01:02:18.010
to my station in Reedy Creek, which was Disney,

01:02:18.150 --> 01:02:22.630
was a 30 -story high -rise hotel. A high -rise

01:02:22.630 --> 01:02:26.070
strip is 100 pounds. I was 168 my whole career.

01:02:26.630 --> 01:02:30.610
So almost half my body weight, actually more

01:02:30.610 --> 01:02:32.590
than half my body weight, excuse me, strapped

01:02:32.590 --> 01:02:35.389
to my skinny -ass frame, climbing 30 floors before

01:02:35.389 --> 01:02:38.469
you even go to work. Then you have to force doors

01:02:38.469 --> 01:02:40.650
and search and pull people out and do the things

01:02:40.650 --> 01:02:45.269
that we do. As you said, this is not carpentry.

01:02:45.269 --> 01:02:48.969
This is not making cups of coffee in Starbucks.

01:02:49.250 --> 01:02:51.969
This is life -saving interventions. And if your

01:02:51.969 --> 01:02:54.710
fitness isn't to the point where you can facilitate

01:02:54.710 --> 01:02:58.269
a rescue, then you should be in some sort of

01:02:58.269 --> 01:03:00.929
training department or whatever it is until you

01:03:00.929 --> 01:03:04.210
get back. But again, there's this cowardice of

01:03:04.210 --> 01:03:06.610
like, oh, they're trying to take a job. No, I

01:03:06.610 --> 01:03:09.489
always tell people, how would you feel if that

01:03:09.489 --> 01:03:12.679
person that you're protecting Was the one responding

01:03:12.679 --> 01:03:15.260
to your family that were trapped and your family

01:03:15.260 --> 01:03:19.280
died because they tapped out, that responder?

01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:25.280
You know, I know one of the community's bias,

01:03:25.780 --> 01:03:27.800
not in Milwaukee, but one of the community's

01:03:27.800 --> 01:03:30.239
bias had this scenario going with one of their

01:03:30.239 --> 01:03:34.340
officers. And they literally gave him, they took

01:03:34.340 --> 01:03:38.579
him off the line, and I think they gave him two

01:03:38.579 --> 01:03:42.010
years of... you know all right we're going to

01:03:42.010 --> 01:03:44.329
give you everything you need we want you to come

01:03:44.329 --> 01:03:46.329
back we don't want to lose you but we can't have

01:03:46.329 --> 01:03:50.889
you the way you are and you know after two years

01:03:50.889 --> 01:03:55.250
he ended up leaving but but it literally that's

01:03:55.250 --> 01:03:58.349
what they did and i i applauded the city because

01:03:58.349 --> 01:04:00.550
i thought this is fantastic this is doing what

01:04:00.550 --> 01:04:01.909
they should be doing they're taking care the

01:04:01.909 --> 01:04:03.769
union did the union agreed they were all part

01:04:03.769 --> 01:04:06.789
of it and they gave this gentleman every opportunity

01:04:06.789 --> 01:04:11.050
he could to drop the weight and to hold on to

01:04:11.050 --> 01:04:14.030
his job and it made it you know he eventually

01:04:14.030 --> 01:04:17.250
decided it wasn't worth it to him but but they

01:04:17.250 --> 01:04:20.449
gave him every opportunity and i i can say that

01:04:20.449 --> 01:04:23.750
uh just prior to me coming on the fire department

01:04:23.750 --> 01:04:28.449
we had a uh we had a run that two firefighters

01:04:28.449 --> 01:04:34.289
were became unconscious in a basement and quite

01:04:34.289 --> 01:04:37.429
frankly all the king's horses and all the king's

01:04:37.429 --> 01:04:41.699
men couldn't carry them up the steps again And

01:04:41.699 --> 01:04:47.440
they lost their lives. I'm guessing. And I'll

01:04:47.440 --> 01:04:50.519
say this from a guy who's had a heart valve replacement.

01:04:54.940 --> 01:04:58.099
When those when you're faced with that type of

01:04:58.099 --> 01:05:05.639
thought. When clarity comes to you. I'm maybe

01:05:05.639 --> 01:05:11.309
I'm wrong. I'm going to bet. That at that moment,

01:05:11.389 --> 01:05:13.590
you're not thinking if I can only get one more

01:05:13.590 --> 01:05:16.449
cheeseburger, if I can only get one more Sunday,

01:05:16.570 --> 01:05:19.869
if I can only stuff my face one more time, you're

01:05:19.869 --> 01:05:23.789
thinking, you know what? My body didn't rise

01:05:23.789 --> 01:05:27.630
to the occasion because I didn't take care of

01:05:27.630 --> 01:05:33.429
myself. I can tell you I did. And I made sure

01:05:33.429 --> 01:05:35.329
it never happened. You know, I was like, that's

01:05:35.329 --> 01:05:37.889
it. You know, and maybe and I don't want it to

01:05:37.889 --> 01:05:40.179
take that for anybody. It should be. You should

01:05:40.179 --> 01:05:43.219
do it on your own. For me, this is a little thick.

01:05:43.940 --> 01:05:46.599
And it took me a while. It took me that incident

01:05:46.599 --> 01:05:49.300
to say that I got a family. I got kids. I got

01:05:49.300 --> 01:05:53.619
grandkids. I'm doing all these other things,

01:05:53.699 --> 01:05:55.900
drinking and partying and living this wonderful

01:05:55.900 --> 01:05:58.500
lifestyle, beating the daylights out of my body.

01:05:59.739 --> 01:06:03.619
Yeah, that doesn't make sense anymore. That cold

01:06:03.619 --> 01:06:06.440
beer, that whatever, it's just not really worth

01:06:06.440 --> 01:06:08.750
it. I might have been known to have a cigar once

01:06:08.750 --> 01:06:10.989
in a while. That cigar just isn't worth it anymore.

01:06:12.429 --> 01:06:14.610
You know, but all of those things are things

01:06:14.610 --> 01:06:17.030
we certainly, you know, we certainly need to

01:06:17.030 --> 01:06:19.550
look at. But I think one of the things you touched

01:06:19.550 --> 01:06:23.010
on, which is vital to all of it, is sleep. You

01:06:23.010 --> 01:06:30.929
know, I look, case in point, our flight was two

01:06:30.929 --> 01:06:32.750
hours delayed. We didn't get in. We didn't get

01:06:32.750 --> 01:06:36.369
into the hotel till. I don't know, midnight,

01:06:36.550 --> 01:06:38.769
one o 'clock in the morning. Now this guy goes

01:06:38.769 --> 01:06:43.050
to bed nine o 'clock every day. Every day, nine

01:06:43.050 --> 01:06:46.389
o 'clock, I'm heading to bed. I read and I go

01:06:46.389 --> 01:06:50.670
to sleep. Probably lights out at 9 .30. So now

01:06:50.670 --> 01:06:53.110
I'm an hour ahead of time. So it's really two

01:06:53.110 --> 01:06:56.909
my time. I'm exhausted. Well, clock wakes me

01:06:56.909 --> 01:06:58.969
up like normal because I don't wake up to an

01:06:58.969 --> 01:07:02.030
alarm. Got up at my usual time, 6 .30, seven

01:07:02.030 --> 01:07:04.579
o 'clock. We had to get up. take off get ready

01:07:04.579 --> 01:07:11.420
for the funeral took off last night um my wife

01:07:11.420 --> 01:07:16.920
and i had had uh we stayed up past nine probably

01:07:16.920 --> 01:07:22.159
11 midnight uh because of just you know talking

01:07:22.159 --> 01:07:28.219
and discussing a lot of things and uh i'm done

01:07:28.219 --> 01:07:32.300
i mean i'm not kidding i'm done you know when

01:07:32.300 --> 01:07:38.940
i was waiting for this i'm like okay uh you know

01:07:38.940 --> 01:07:41.239
let's get it rolling let's get it rolling because

01:07:41.239 --> 01:07:45.340
that's how much sleep when i finally realize

01:07:45.340 --> 01:07:48.940
it and i see how valuable it is that's how much

01:07:48.940 --> 01:07:53.280
sleep makes a difference it really does because

01:07:53.280 --> 01:07:56.079
i'll go home now and i'll catch a couple nights

01:07:56.079 --> 01:07:58.320
where i'll sleep a little later or do whatever

01:07:58.320 --> 01:08:00.599
and i'll see that i'll see that recovery in my

01:08:00.599 --> 01:08:02.869
system My workouts will become better again.

01:08:03.369 --> 01:08:06.170
My eating habits will be better again. Everything

01:08:06.170 --> 01:08:10.230
all ties into this. Sleep. I think people don't

01:08:10.230 --> 01:08:12.570
realize how, because my dad used to say all the

01:08:12.570 --> 01:08:14.309
time, sleep when you're dead. I'll sleep when

01:08:14.309 --> 01:08:16.210
I'm dead. I'll sleep when I'm dead. Well, he

01:08:16.210 --> 01:08:19.590
was wrong. I mean, yes, he's sleeping now, but

01:08:19.590 --> 01:08:23.310
he was wrong. He should have slept when he could.

01:08:24.569 --> 01:08:27.810
And I know you bring that to the attention. You

01:08:27.810 --> 01:08:30.130
bring that to the forefront, but sleep is vital

01:08:30.130 --> 01:08:37.039
to us. It's ridiculously important. When we talk

01:08:37.039 --> 01:08:39.460
about the weight issue and all those other things,

01:08:39.619 --> 01:08:42.819
two things I've noticed that are vitally important,

01:08:43.000 --> 01:08:48.720
sleep and hydration, proper hydration. They tell

01:08:48.720 --> 01:08:51.079
me because I have this valve, salt isn't the

01:08:51.079 --> 01:08:55.220
enemy, and I disagree. I think I need salt. My

01:08:55.220 --> 01:09:00.359
workouts are much better when I have salt. But

01:09:00.359 --> 01:09:03.479
it's huge. So if we're going to worry about weight,

01:09:03.600 --> 01:09:05.680
I found that it's much easier to maintain. I

01:09:05.680 --> 01:09:07.159
guess what I'm getting at is that it's much easier

01:09:07.159 --> 01:09:10.739
to maintain a comfortable weight and a good weight

01:09:10.739 --> 01:09:14.439
with proper sleep, proper nutrition, obviously.

01:09:14.560 --> 01:09:17.619
But sleep is huge. It lets your body recover,

01:09:17.859 --> 01:09:22.029
period. Absolutely. Well, I mean, you get this

01:09:22.029 --> 01:09:24.029
thing. So we talk a lot about, you know, sleep

01:09:24.029 --> 01:09:26.449
deprivation being related to cancer and like

01:09:26.449 --> 01:09:29.210
I said, testosterone and obesity and, you know,

01:09:29.210 --> 01:09:32.069
directly related to all things mental ill health

01:09:32.069 --> 01:09:34.810
from addiction to suicide to anxiety and depression

01:09:34.810 --> 01:09:38.289
and all above. But musculoskeletal injury is

01:09:38.289 --> 01:09:41.369
another big one. And we, you know, you and I

01:09:41.369 --> 01:09:44.149
are doing a workout. We're breaking down the

01:09:44.149 --> 01:09:46.630
muscle, the connective tissue. And then sleep

01:09:46.630 --> 01:09:48.630
is when it rebuilds and is a little bit stronger.

01:09:48.850 --> 01:09:51.810
So getting you from, you know, 165 to 190, that

01:09:51.810 --> 01:09:53.449
was when you were sleeping that you were building.

01:09:54.029 --> 01:09:56.949
And the same with skill acquisition. Now you're

01:09:56.949 --> 01:09:59.930
at a high angle class and you're learning Z rigs

01:09:59.930 --> 01:10:02.930
and, you know, whatever else. It's when you sleep

01:10:02.930 --> 01:10:04.569
that you actually process that and get a little

01:10:04.569 --> 01:10:07.510
bit better. So now you look at an understaffed

01:10:07.510 --> 01:10:09.909
overworked department with no Kelly, which is

01:10:09.909 --> 01:10:12.600
why I spent most of my career. And, you know,

01:10:12.619 --> 01:10:15.420
you're working 24, 48, if you're lucky, if not

01:10:15.420 --> 01:10:18.880
48, 24, when you get mandatory. When are you

01:10:18.880 --> 01:10:21.279
supposed to repair? You still take your job seriously.

01:10:21.319 --> 01:10:23.260
You're still pulling hose and climbing the aerial

01:10:23.260 --> 01:10:25.319
and doing all these other drills. You're still

01:10:25.319 --> 01:10:28.779
working out with the crew every shift. And you

01:10:28.779 --> 01:10:31.739
get, again, that chicken wing guy saying, oh,

01:10:31.840 --> 01:10:33.819
it's always the fit guys that get hurt. It is.

01:10:33.859 --> 01:10:36.649
There's science behind it. Because they take

01:10:36.649 --> 01:10:38.729
their job seriously. They're breaking their body

01:10:38.729 --> 01:10:41.789
down, expecting to build it during sleep. But

01:10:41.789 --> 01:10:43.970
then the sleep is robbed from them. So from a

01:10:43.970 --> 01:10:46.569
performance point of view and from a workman's

01:10:46.569 --> 01:10:49.989
comp point of view, if your crew, if your department,

01:10:50.050 --> 01:10:52.829
if your men and women are not sleeping, it's

01:10:52.829 --> 01:10:54.909
when are they going to get hurt is the question.

01:10:55.029 --> 01:10:59.470
Not if, but when. No, absolutely. And you mentioned

01:10:59.470 --> 01:11:02.829
it briefly. But the other side of that is I can

01:11:02.829 --> 01:11:11.039
tell you. And I didn't see it then. Well, maybe

01:11:11.039 --> 01:11:13.079
I shouldn't say that. I saw it, but I didn't

01:11:13.079 --> 01:11:15.220
realize what the reasoning was behind it, what

01:11:15.220 --> 01:11:18.760
was causing it. But I can tell you that when

01:11:18.760 --> 01:11:26.960
my sleep cycle is disturbed, my mood is completely

01:11:26.960 --> 01:11:32.479
different. Completely. Whether it be, as we mentioned

01:11:32.479 --> 01:11:39.770
earlier, thought of doubt. sadness or quicker

01:11:39.770 --> 01:11:44.109
to anger. All these other things play in because

01:11:44.109 --> 01:11:49.630
I'm not sleeping properly. Let alone, and I'll

01:11:49.630 --> 01:11:52.229
say the beginning of this podcast, I had to get

01:11:52.229 --> 01:11:55.670
the cobwebs out of here. It was like, okay, here

01:11:55.670 --> 01:12:00.489
it is. Get going. Well, that's only because I

01:12:00.489 --> 01:12:05.470
haven't slept for the last two days. And I notice

01:12:05.470 --> 01:12:08.529
it now. I didn't notice as a young man. It was

01:12:08.529 --> 01:12:10.909
just like you said, it's all part of this. The

01:12:10.909 --> 01:12:16.430
problem is, is we feed our people. This is the

01:12:16.430 --> 01:12:20.489
way it is. And nobody says what you said. Well,

01:12:20.590 --> 01:12:28.029
why? Well, because. Okay, why? Hmm. I don't know.

01:12:29.210 --> 01:12:31.989
I don't know. Because we've always drank 40.

01:12:32.010 --> 01:12:35.409
We've always had a pot of coffee on. 24 7. we've

01:12:35.409 --> 01:12:37.890
always caffeinated the crap out of ourselves

01:12:37.890 --> 01:12:42.829
we've always hidden our our sadness our depression

01:12:42.829 --> 01:12:46.729
our whatever we're carrying in our heads that

01:12:46.729 --> 01:12:50.189
day with a few beers with buddies because that

01:12:50.189 --> 01:12:53.989
solves the problems takes it all away well it

01:12:53.989 --> 01:12:56.050
doesn't take any of it oh i can't sleep okay

01:12:56.050 --> 01:12:58.409
we'll have a nice glass of whiskey before bed

01:12:58.409 --> 01:13:00.890
well that doesn't do any good either We're sleeping,

01:13:01.130 --> 01:13:03.470
but we're not sleeping. We're not in reparative

01:13:03.470 --> 01:13:05.489
state. We're not recovering. We're not doing

01:13:05.489 --> 01:13:10.029
anything we should be doing. And it just seems

01:13:10.029 --> 01:13:15.289
we just, again, I don't have the answer, James,

01:13:15.409 --> 01:13:17.989
but I know that we have to change the system.

01:13:18.789 --> 01:13:22.409
This can't continue. We're at a golden opportunity

01:13:22.409 --> 01:13:26.840
for us to take these younger firefighters. a

01:13:26.840 --> 01:13:29.140
whole different generation, a generation that

01:13:29.140 --> 01:13:31.579
looks at the world completely different than

01:13:31.579 --> 01:13:37.739
I did, and give them the tools they need to get

01:13:37.739 --> 01:13:43.319
out the other end healthy and mentally fit. We

01:13:43.319 --> 01:13:46.420
have to. I just don't know. I'm at a loss right

01:13:46.420 --> 01:13:48.800
now of how we're going to do it, but doggone

01:13:48.800 --> 01:13:50.979
it, we're going to get it done. They deserve

01:13:50.979 --> 01:13:54.149
it. I agree completely, and I think... you know

01:13:54.149 --> 01:13:56.649
i harp about harp on about it all the time but

01:13:56.649 --> 01:13:59.869
the biggest herd of elephants in the room and

01:13:59.869 --> 01:14:01.949
i was funny i just put a post up today i've seen

01:14:01.949 --> 01:14:04.510
it before it's a great kind of comedy skit and

01:14:04.510 --> 01:14:07.090
it's a husband and wife and she's talking about

01:14:07.090 --> 01:14:10.270
the headache and uh then she turns to the side

01:14:10.270 --> 01:14:12.229
you see this massive nail sticking out of her

01:14:12.229 --> 01:14:15.210
forehead and the husband's trying to very delicately

01:14:15.210 --> 01:14:17.850
delicately suggest that maybe the nail in her

01:14:17.850 --> 01:14:20.800
forehead is a problem she's like You always want

01:14:20.800 --> 01:14:23.039
to fix things. I just need you to listen. And

01:14:23.039 --> 01:14:25.039
so I put a kind of, you know, changed input.

01:14:25.220 --> 01:14:27.720
This is the fire service, you know, talking about

01:14:27.720 --> 01:14:30.180
the recruitment crisis whilst ignoring the horrendous

01:14:30.180 --> 01:14:32.640
work week. Because to me, that is the nucleus.

01:14:32.779 --> 01:14:35.500
That is the only thing that people refuse. And,

01:14:35.539 --> 01:14:36.979
you know, there are some great departments that

01:14:36.979 --> 01:14:38.979
are changing now. Florida is seeing a revolution

01:14:38.979 --> 01:14:42.619
at the moment. That is the elephant in the room

01:14:42.619 --> 01:14:44.840
in all these things. Everything from the people

01:14:44.840 --> 01:14:46.939
that we're losing to the people that we can't

01:14:46.939 --> 01:14:49.340
hire and everything in between. And you want

01:14:49.340 --> 01:14:52.340
to put fitness standards back, create an environment

01:14:52.340 --> 01:14:54.880
for health and performance, and then you can

01:14:54.880 --> 01:14:58.100
put that bar up. Because as Gainesville, Pasco

01:14:58.100 --> 01:15:00.800
County, all these departments close to me that

01:15:00.800 --> 01:15:03.140
have made this move, they've got people lining

01:15:03.140 --> 01:15:05.779
up around the building again. So instead of taking

01:15:05.779 --> 01:15:08.899
80 % of the list, they can go back to taking

01:15:08.899 --> 01:15:12.699
10 % like we did. 10, 15, 20 years ago. And so

01:15:12.699 --> 01:15:15.300
now you can say, oh, and by the way, we're going

01:15:15.300 --> 01:15:16.939
to hold you to the standard every year. Boom.

01:15:17.100 --> 01:15:18.699
Now you've just hit it from two sides. You've

01:15:18.699 --> 01:15:21.159
given them a healthy work week and you're now

01:15:21.159 --> 01:15:23.859
maintaining fitness. Now, as we mentioned earlier,

01:15:24.020 --> 01:15:25.960
you bring in a culturally competent clinician

01:15:25.960 --> 01:15:28.319
and at the front door, you work on their mental

01:15:28.319 --> 01:15:31.399
health. Now you've got a physically fit responder

01:15:31.399 --> 01:15:34.920
who's already starting to process some of the

01:15:34.920 --> 01:15:37.170
things. Whether they're just talking about the

01:15:37.170 --> 01:15:39.069
weather or whether diving deep into what happened

01:15:39.069 --> 01:15:41.550
with their creepy uncle, whatever it is, they're

01:15:41.550 --> 01:15:44.409
working on that. And now they've got a healthy

01:15:44.409 --> 01:15:46.130
work week where they're home where they're supposed

01:15:46.130 --> 01:15:49.310
to be after 42 hours. Now you've got a ripple

01:15:49.310 --> 01:15:52.689
effect of a healthy relationship back home. So

01:15:52.689 --> 01:15:55.149
to me, the 42 -hour work week, and for people

01:15:55.149 --> 01:15:56.970
that are obviously already working that, then

01:15:56.970 --> 01:15:58.869
you go to the next level, the fitness standards

01:15:58.869 --> 01:16:00.930
and all the other things. But for the majority

01:16:00.930 --> 01:16:04.489
that is so woefully understaffed, If you're not

01:16:04.489 --> 01:16:07.590
doing a 24 -72, and I know I saw one recently,

01:16:07.710 --> 01:16:12.890
it was 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 5 off. Again, look

01:16:12.890 --> 01:16:15.390
at the sleep medicine. See what a horrible recovery

01:16:15.390 --> 01:16:18.550
period that is. I would argue the 24 -72 is still

01:16:18.550 --> 01:16:22.270
the right one. But yeah, that is the biggest

01:16:22.270 --> 01:16:24.930
bang for the buck. And then we can start tweaking

01:16:24.930 --> 01:16:26.729
all the other things. But the phrase I always

01:16:26.729 --> 01:16:29.630
hear is people go for the low -hanging fruit.

01:16:29.750 --> 01:16:32.270
I'm doing air quotes. Well, to me, that's the

01:16:32.270 --> 01:16:36.079
bitch move. Let me do the easy thing. Maybe we'll

01:16:36.079 --> 01:16:39.260
just, we'll bring in an EAP. There we go. Mental

01:16:39.260 --> 01:16:43.119
health is taken care of rather than let's get,

01:16:43.140 --> 01:16:45.380
as you mentioned earlier, left a bang and figuring

01:16:45.380 --> 01:16:48.479
out what are these contributing factors to this

01:16:48.479 --> 01:16:50.960
cancer epidemic, this mental health epidemic,

01:16:51.180 --> 01:16:54.880
this recruitment crisis. So I think for me, I

01:16:54.880 --> 01:16:58.100
don't have all the answers. But there are lots

01:16:58.100 --> 01:17:00.340
of answers that we can start diving into that

01:17:00.340 --> 01:17:02.560
are going to make a massive difference in all

01:17:02.560 --> 01:17:04.460
the things that we talked about. And if you're

01:17:04.460 --> 01:17:07.140
not working a 42 hour work week and you're not

01:17:07.140 --> 01:17:10.220
fully staffed, that is the massive step one,

01:17:10.300 --> 01:17:13.800
in my opinion. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that

01:17:13.800 --> 01:17:20.159
is this. That's a great start. Let's get there.

01:17:20.439 --> 01:17:23.279
Let's start with that, because that does bring

01:17:23.279 --> 01:17:28.630
so much to the table. You know, it just brings

01:17:28.630 --> 01:17:33.350
so much of getting the ability to get the proper

01:17:33.350 --> 01:17:36.149
sleep you need, the proper recovery, and the

01:17:36.149 --> 01:17:38.930
ability to, you know, it just puts everything

01:17:38.930 --> 01:17:41.810
back in line. You know, it really does. And there

01:17:41.810 --> 01:17:47.550
is no reason, because it's been proven over and

01:17:47.550 --> 01:17:53.829
over again, that injuries go down. I mean, you

01:17:53.829 --> 01:17:56.390
bring it up all the time. Injury goes down. you're

01:17:56.390 --> 01:17:58.550
fully staffed you have a long list of people

01:17:58.550 --> 01:18:01.670
that want to come in and do the job it doesn't

01:18:01.670 --> 01:18:03.869
cost you the money that the city says well this

01:18:03.869 --> 01:18:06.729
is going to cost so much money it doesn't it

01:18:06.729 --> 01:18:10.250
actually makes in the long run that that it's

01:18:10.250 --> 01:18:13.289
going to save money and you're going to have

01:18:13.289 --> 01:18:15.289
better employees you're going to have people

01:18:15.289 --> 01:18:20.149
that are coming to work ready to go not tired

01:18:20.149 --> 01:18:22.109
you're going to have people that are going to

01:18:22.109 --> 01:18:24.109
be able to make better decisions because they're

01:18:24.109 --> 01:18:28.630
not exhausted not crash a rig, not push the wrong

01:18:28.630 --> 01:18:31.430
drug, not do all these things that happen when

01:18:31.430 --> 01:18:34.489
you're running 20, 25 calls a day. And I know,

01:18:34.510 --> 01:18:36.350
I understand there's fire departments that don't

01:18:36.350 --> 01:18:38.010
do that kind of work. There's guys working this

01:18:38.010 --> 01:18:43.590
9648, which I think is insanity, but they're

01:18:43.590 --> 01:18:47.449
not running the call volume that the American

01:18:47.449 --> 01:18:49.850
fire service is running now. And I, you know,

01:18:49.850 --> 01:18:51.810
I saw a post the other day that was, you know,

01:18:51.810 --> 01:18:55.140
said that EMS is up. I don't know. 200 % or 300

01:18:55.140 --> 01:18:58.279
% or something like that. And the call volume

01:18:58.279 --> 01:19:00.899
is up. The call volume is crazy right now. I

01:19:00.899 --> 01:19:03.020
mean, there are more fire departments than not

01:19:03.020 --> 01:19:06.020
that have multiple companies, City of Milwaukee

01:19:06.020 --> 01:19:09.680
being one of them. That is, to do 4 ,000 runs

01:19:09.680 --> 01:19:13.659
is not uncommon. I mean, and companies in 6 ,000

01:19:13.659 --> 01:19:16.340
runs. But 4 ,000, which used to be considered

01:19:16.340 --> 01:19:19.000
a very busy company when I was working, is now

01:19:19.000 --> 01:19:22.020
like, yeah, that's the norm. You know, everybody's

01:19:22.020 --> 01:19:25.520
doing that. Well, that's not sustainable. We

01:19:25.520 --> 01:19:29.680
can't, we can't beat the daylights out of our

01:19:29.680 --> 01:19:33.520
people that way. And I, you know, I think of

01:19:33.520 --> 01:19:35.560
the work week and one of the things that I really,

01:19:35.560 --> 01:19:41.479
that really comes to mind is why, go back to

01:19:41.479 --> 01:19:44.039
what I said earlier. Why are we the only ones

01:19:44.039 --> 01:19:46.399
that are, that are expected to work 16 hours

01:19:46.399 --> 01:19:51.520
extra? We are a trade. we are we are this is

01:19:51.520 --> 01:19:54.239
a craft this is a profession this is blue collar

01:19:54.239 --> 01:19:57.979
this is all whatever you want to call it they're

01:19:57.979 --> 01:20:03.579
only everyone else works a 40 -hour work week

01:20:03.579 --> 01:20:07.399
i mean my son soon -to -be son -in -law is a

01:20:07.399 --> 01:20:11.359
electrician a union electrician and if he's required

01:20:11.359 --> 01:20:14.960
to work that any more than that it's big money

01:20:14.960 --> 01:20:21.359
baby big money so We don't think of it that way.

01:20:22.180 --> 01:20:24.800
We let the cities, if we're good, strong, hard

01:20:24.800 --> 01:20:27.720
unions, we let the cities get away with whatever

01:20:27.720 --> 01:20:30.220
they want. We let the cities say, well, you work

01:20:30.220 --> 01:20:32.659
56 hours. Oh, and then we'll make you mandate

01:20:32.659 --> 01:20:34.680
another day. We'll force you to work another

01:20:34.680 --> 01:20:37.119
day. And we're only going to pay you for time

01:20:37.119 --> 01:20:39.739
and a half only if we force you to work another

01:20:39.739 --> 01:20:44.460
day. And then you work two extra days in a pay

01:20:44.460 --> 01:20:52.010
period. Again, we got to stop it. We have to

01:20:52.010 --> 01:20:56.489
be courageous. Let's, as union bosses, I was

01:20:56.489 --> 01:20:58.909
on e -board, I've been on executive board, as

01:20:58.909 --> 01:21:01.449
union bosses, let's fight for what's supposed

01:21:01.449 --> 01:21:06.229
to be, wages, hours, working conditions. If we

01:21:06.229 --> 01:21:10.329
can do those, we can prove that we actually genuinely

01:21:10.329 --> 01:21:17.649
care about our members. Because I think, opinion

01:21:17.649 --> 01:21:20.090
only, there are more fire departments than not

01:21:20.090 --> 01:21:23.609
that want their people to succeed i didn't sit

01:21:23.609 --> 01:21:26.449
up in my ivory tower of the of our administration

01:21:26.449 --> 01:21:29.569
in the city of milwaukee and think what ways

01:21:29.569 --> 01:21:34.029
can i figure out to beat my people more i listen

01:21:34.029 --> 01:21:37.369
to them tell me chief we're getting our our faces

01:21:37.369 --> 01:21:41.130
kicked in you got to help us you got to give

01:21:41.130 --> 01:21:47.609
us something we were willing to help And willing

01:21:47.609 --> 01:21:51.890
to change. But we have to start somewhere. And

01:21:51.890 --> 01:21:56.189
I think I'm with you. That 24 -72, let's start

01:21:56.189 --> 01:22:02.329
there. Absolutely. Let's make this happen. See,

01:22:02.369 --> 01:22:03.829
and I agree with you completely. I think there

01:22:03.829 --> 01:22:09.409
is a group, you know, a section of chiefs or

01:22:09.409 --> 01:22:13.529
union leaders. that really don't seem to care.

01:22:13.649 --> 01:22:16.010
And I would argue that that again is probably

01:22:16.010 --> 01:22:18.430
unaddressed mental ill health that, you know,

01:22:18.430 --> 01:22:22.250
if you're seemingly unmoved by multiple funerals

01:22:22.250 --> 01:22:24.689
of your people and you're, I mean, literally

01:22:24.689 --> 01:22:26.949
like digging your heels in and sadly the department

01:22:26.949 --> 01:22:29.229
that protects my family, I can say that because

01:22:29.229 --> 01:22:31.810
I've given this information for years and nothing

01:22:31.810 --> 01:22:34.590
has changed. Then, you know, you've got that.

01:22:34.689 --> 01:22:36.989
But then I think, as you said, that middle 80%.

01:22:37.630 --> 01:22:40.310
You do have a lot of people and their egos kind

01:22:40.310 --> 01:22:43.489
of, you know, sprinkled in there. But I always

01:22:43.489 --> 01:22:45.869
tell people like where we are now in this recruitment

01:22:45.869 --> 01:22:49.630
crisis, there's almost this facade like the line,

01:22:49.649 --> 01:22:52.289
you know, the descending line has crested now.

01:22:52.449 --> 01:22:55.789
And it hasn't. It's still aimed at the floor.

01:22:56.369 --> 01:23:00.250
So the reality is, if you are the head of a union,

01:23:00.470 --> 01:23:03.189
if you're a fire chief, if you're a city or council

01:23:03.189 --> 01:23:06.729
or county council member. You really have one

01:23:06.729 --> 01:23:09.569
of two choices at this point. You can either

01:23:09.569 --> 01:23:13.270
be the person who turns the ship around and you

01:23:13.270 --> 01:23:15.590
can be the hero of your own story. You can be

01:23:15.590 --> 01:23:17.090
the one that everyone's like, oh yeah, so -and

01:23:17.090 --> 01:23:18.729
-so was in office or so -and -so was the chief.

01:23:18.909 --> 01:23:21.010
And, you know, and cause I mean, I always kind

01:23:21.010 --> 01:23:23.850
of almost laugh, like imagine 20 years from now,

01:23:23.909 --> 01:23:27.109
this is folklore that our generation once works

01:23:27.109 --> 01:23:30.029
56, 80 hours a week. I hope that's the case.

01:23:30.369 --> 01:23:32.550
So you have the ability to turn it around or

01:23:32.550 --> 01:23:35.630
option B. is you are known as the person who

01:23:35.630 --> 01:23:39.510
sank the ship. That's it. A or B, which one do

01:23:39.510 --> 01:23:42.810
you want to be? And then at the lower level,

01:23:42.869 --> 01:23:44.329
and this is what they call the action as well

01:23:44.329 --> 01:23:48.430
to me, is everyone else who's on the rigs, who's

01:23:48.430 --> 01:23:52.029
in the meat grinder, ask yourself, why do your

01:23:52.029 --> 01:23:55.750
family not deserve to have you home? Why in your

01:23:55.750 --> 01:23:57.909
mind, in this story that you tell yourself that

01:23:57.909 --> 01:24:00.210
your job is more important than being present

01:24:00.210 --> 01:24:02.470
at that ballet recital or the donuts for dad

01:24:02.470 --> 01:24:05.850
or the softball game, you know, or your wife's

01:24:05.850 --> 01:24:07.989
promotion or husband's promote, whatever it is

01:24:07.989 --> 01:24:12.149
that you put them second fiddle to the city or

01:24:12.149 --> 01:24:16.250
county that you truly are just a number. So if

01:24:16.250 --> 01:24:18.489
you think that you don't deserve to work a 42

01:24:18.489 --> 01:24:21.010
hour week, then just disregard everything we've

01:24:21.010 --> 01:24:23.060
been talking about today. But if you actually

01:24:23.060 --> 01:24:26.079
see your family is important to you, then you

01:24:26.079 --> 01:24:29.199
need to pick up the pitchfork and the torch and

01:24:29.199 --> 01:24:31.260
band everyone together and say, why the hell

01:24:31.260 --> 01:24:35.079
do we work 56 hours a week? In Florida, there's

01:24:35.079 --> 01:24:36.859
a revolution. All these departments are changing

01:24:36.859 --> 01:24:39.180
and they're doing it because it's going to save

01:24:39.180 --> 01:24:41.380
them money. Why are we not doing it here? All

01:24:41.380 --> 01:24:44.319
these pushbacks that we've been told are false

01:24:44.319 --> 01:24:47.340
narratives. Fake news is the term I believe we

01:24:47.340 --> 01:24:51.020
use today. So now is the time to rise up and

01:24:51.020 --> 01:24:55.239
reclaim our fire department and get men and women

01:24:55.239 --> 01:24:57.579
in uniform to the left of us and the right of

01:24:57.579 --> 01:25:00.079
us that we would be proud to enter a structure

01:25:00.079 --> 01:25:02.840
fire with and will maximize the chance of us

01:25:02.840 --> 01:25:06.279
coming home to our daughters and sons and husbands

01:25:06.279 --> 01:25:10.380
and wives. You know, when I was when I was I

01:25:10.380 --> 01:25:13.039
worked for a smaller department before I went

01:25:13.039 --> 01:25:16.659
to the city of Milwaukee. And I remember when

01:25:16.659 --> 01:25:22.039
I was coming over and I let my brother know that

01:25:22.039 --> 01:25:24.619
I was going to be with him. And he called me

01:25:24.619 --> 01:25:26.979
and he said, what is wrong with you? Why are

01:25:26.979 --> 01:25:30.180
you coming here? And I said, because I want to

01:25:30.180 --> 01:25:34.539
fight fires for a living. And he said, you know,

01:25:34.619 --> 01:25:37.199
you're working in a department that's smaller.

01:25:37.300 --> 01:25:40.119
People know you. The chief knows you. We were

01:25:40.119 --> 01:25:43.020
only three firehouses, 60 personnel, I think,

01:25:43.060 --> 01:25:46.409
total. Chief knows you. You can live where you

01:25:46.409 --> 01:25:48.689
want, all these other things, to where you're

01:25:48.689 --> 01:25:50.229
going to move into the city. You have to live

01:25:50.229 --> 01:25:54.289
in the city, which I was in favor of. And you

01:25:54.289 --> 01:25:57.090
are nothing more than 52083, which is our pension

01:25:57.090 --> 01:25:59.510
number. He says, that's what you are. And if

01:25:59.510 --> 01:26:01.970
you think anything else, kid, you're dreaming.

01:26:02.909 --> 01:26:05.529
Well, quite frankly, as that young man, as that

01:26:05.529 --> 01:26:07.649
fire pisser, that's going to save the world,

01:26:07.689 --> 01:26:11.789
baby in each hand, flames out the window. I told

01:26:11.789 --> 01:26:14.039
him he's full of crap. because i said no if something

01:26:14.039 --> 01:26:16.319
happens to me they'll have a 12 -foot high statue

01:26:16.319 --> 01:26:18.260
in the middle of city in the middle of city hall

01:26:18.260 --> 01:26:20.300
that they'll all come and praise me and which

01:26:20.300 --> 01:26:23.720
is all a bunch of lies it's all lies the reality

01:26:23.720 --> 01:26:27.100
is we you make an excellent point because the

01:26:27.100 --> 01:26:34.739
problem is the fire service is a wicked mistress

01:26:34.739 --> 01:26:42.350
she don't care And no matter what we put into

01:26:42.350 --> 01:26:48.350
it, she don't kiss back. And we don't see it

01:26:48.350 --> 01:26:52.449
when we're in the thick of it. And she is. She's

01:26:52.449 --> 01:26:55.470
an evil mistress. She will make you do things.

01:26:55.770 --> 01:26:59.989
She will make you leave your family. She will

01:26:59.989 --> 01:27:02.909
make you not be at the daughter dance. She will

01:27:02.909 --> 01:27:06.270
make you miss the football game. She will make

01:27:06.270 --> 01:27:09.659
you miss all those things. And she will convince

01:27:09.659 --> 01:27:11.779
you that you're doing it for the greater good.

01:27:12.859 --> 01:27:16.220
You're doing it for what's right. You're doing

01:27:16.220 --> 01:27:22.100
it for the greater cause. The fact is, the problem

01:27:22.100 --> 01:27:25.060
is, is a lot of us do it at the expense of our

01:27:25.060 --> 01:27:29.439
own family. And we think, well, you're supposed

01:27:29.439 --> 01:27:33.520
to accept that. I don't know, how can you not

01:27:33.520 --> 01:27:37.100
accept that I have to go do these things? But

01:27:37.100 --> 01:27:42.560
because she is that mistress that doesn't kiss

01:27:42.560 --> 01:27:48.420
back, man. I mean, she's something. She'll convince

01:27:48.420 --> 01:27:51.939
you of a lot of things. And it's wrong. Because

01:27:51.939 --> 01:27:55.739
it's too many of us. Too many of us. Too many

01:27:55.739 --> 01:27:59.659
of us are divorced. Too many of us look back

01:27:59.659 --> 01:28:01.819
on our lives and say, did we raise our kids the

01:28:01.819 --> 01:28:06.739
best we could? Yes. Could we have raised him

01:28:06.739 --> 01:28:11.420
better if we weren't divorced? Maybe. All of

01:28:11.420 --> 01:28:13.479
those things we got to deal with, let alone that

01:28:13.479 --> 01:28:15.779
that also brings with it the idea of, oh, you

01:28:15.779 --> 01:28:18.460
know what? A pint here or there, whiskey before

01:28:18.460 --> 01:28:21.720
bed, maybe two whiskeys before bed. All these

01:28:21.720 --> 01:28:26.779
other things that play into this serving this

01:28:26.779 --> 01:28:32.720
mistress and ignoring the things that are really

01:28:32.720 --> 01:28:37.890
important. And our family. Key point, what you

01:28:37.890 --> 01:28:45.430
said. If we really and truly need to do well,

01:28:45.489 --> 01:28:50.029
for me personally, my relationship with my creator,

01:28:50.189 --> 01:28:55.310
my family, and then everything else. Nothing

01:28:55.310 --> 01:28:59.210
else should be between there. Nothing. And too

01:28:59.210 --> 01:29:02.210
many of us look the other way. You know, I mean,

01:29:02.210 --> 01:29:08.960
it's just, we just, we just do. And I think that

01:29:08.960 --> 01:29:12.140
this generation, these new firefighters that

01:29:12.140 --> 01:29:16.680
are coming in the door, are smarter than me.

01:29:18.300 --> 01:29:20.739
And they know it. And they go, no, dude, that

01:29:20.739 --> 01:29:23.100
doesn't make any sense. I mean, if they did,

01:29:23.640 --> 01:29:26.319
we would have people standing out the door, and

01:29:26.319 --> 01:29:28.699
we don't, because they're smarter. They're like,

01:29:28.699 --> 01:29:31.579
well, wait a minute. I can go do this job and

01:29:31.579 --> 01:29:35.699
make good money. And only work 40 hours or I

01:29:35.699 --> 01:29:39.279
can do that job. Get my teeth kicked in, get

01:29:39.279 --> 01:29:44.020
no sleep, work 16 hours extra a week. Yeah. Oh,

01:29:44.159 --> 01:29:47.779
and see things that my mind. What is this? What

01:29:47.779 --> 01:29:51.000
are they? Like you said, what is the if my eyes

01:29:51.000 --> 01:29:53.979
could if my mind could forget the things my eyes

01:29:53.979 --> 01:30:00.319
have seen? Oh, I get to do that, too. I get to

01:30:00.319 --> 01:30:03.180
see the horror of what men, what mankind can

01:30:03.180 --> 01:30:06.840
do to mankind. Oh, yeah. Sign me up. Where do

01:30:06.840 --> 01:30:11.880
I go? You know, that's crazy. It's crazy. See,

01:30:11.939 --> 01:30:17.159
I think this is what's so, to be honest, encouraging

01:30:17.159 --> 01:30:21.539
is the profession itself is a beautiful thing.

01:30:21.600 --> 01:30:24.739
And I actually had the three women from the Dear

01:30:24.739 --> 01:30:28.970
Chiefs podcast on. I was talking to one of them

01:30:28.970 --> 01:30:30.869
and she relayed a story where she had one of

01:30:30.869 --> 01:30:34.090
her sons was all in as a firefighter. His dad

01:30:34.090 --> 01:30:37.350
is a firefighter. So he used to wear his firefighter

01:30:37.350 --> 01:30:39.829
uniform or costume everywhere. And he was always

01:30:39.829 --> 01:30:42.510
like putting out fires with the hose. And then

01:30:42.510 --> 01:30:45.149
they had a conversation years later. Now he's,

01:30:45.149 --> 01:30:47.710
I think like, you know, 14, 15, something like

01:30:47.710 --> 01:30:49.949
that. So kind of getting close to where he'd

01:30:49.949 --> 01:30:51.850
be going to cadet programs and that kind of thing.

01:30:52.170 --> 01:30:54.149
And they asked him, like, do you still want to

01:30:54.149 --> 01:30:56.130
be a firefighter? And he goes. Something like,

01:30:56.130 --> 01:30:58.609
he's like, hell no. It was a very kind of explosive

01:30:58.609 --> 01:31:01.050
response. And they were kind of taken aback and

01:31:01.050 --> 01:31:03.930
they were like, why? And he said, cause daddy's

01:31:03.930 --> 01:31:06.850
never home. He didn't say, I don't want to fight

01:31:06.850 --> 01:31:09.270
fire. He didn't say, I don't want to be in confined

01:31:09.270 --> 01:31:12.289
spaces or a hundred foot up on an aerial. He

01:31:12.289 --> 01:31:15.369
said, daddy is never home. And I have watched

01:31:15.369 --> 01:31:19.229
so many incredible men and women, you know, male

01:31:19.229 --> 01:31:21.329
and female firefighters that I would say is some

01:31:21.329 --> 01:31:24.520
of the best parents. And I've watched some of

01:31:24.520 --> 01:31:27.899
their lives just disintegrate as they go through

01:31:27.899 --> 01:31:30.979
this this meat grinder, you know, and these unending

01:31:30.979 --> 01:31:33.920
shifts and these unending mandatory overtimes.

01:31:33.939 --> 01:31:37.020
You know, then you weave in toxic culture and

01:31:37.020 --> 01:31:39.420
organizational betrayal. And, you know, it's

01:31:39.420 --> 01:31:42.260
horrendous. But that is not firefighting. That

01:31:42.260 --> 01:31:45.960
is not EMS. That is the working conditions around

01:31:45.960 --> 01:31:50.800
it. So to me, I think, you know, she can be a

01:31:50.800 --> 01:31:54.600
beautiful mistress. If you get to go there, the

01:31:54.600 --> 01:31:58.500
healthy amount of time, do your part, high five

01:31:58.500 --> 01:32:01.239
the next shift as you walk out, and then you

01:32:01.239 --> 01:32:05.600
be present with your family. So what inspires

01:32:05.600 --> 01:32:08.159
me, what really gives me hope is that again,

01:32:08.300 --> 01:32:10.720
when we finally get that, and I think we were

01:32:10.720 --> 01:32:14.439
talking in your show, to me, there's not much

01:32:14.439 --> 01:32:17.720
more innovation left in the fire service. I think

01:32:17.720 --> 01:32:20.500
the next thing is drones and, you know. totally

01:32:20.500 --> 01:32:23.720
where you're removing humans so the scbas and

01:32:23.720 --> 01:32:26.500
the extrication tools and you know a lot of the

01:32:26.500 --> 01:32:29.739
rigs they've they they're there so our forefathers

01:32:29.739 --> 01:32:32.939
and foremothers came up with these amazing you

01:32:32.939 --> 01:32:35.359
know technologies and that's kind of got us where

01:32:35.359 --> 01:32:38.399
we are now aside from the american helmet that

01:32:38.399 --> 01:32:39.739
you and i were laughing about the other day it

01:32:39.739 --> 01:32:41.579
was just from the 1930s we won't go down that

01:32:41.579 --> 01:32:48.119
rabbit hole um but um so to me The legacy that

01:32:48.119 --> 01:32:51.899
our generation leaves is that we fix the things

01:32:51.899 --> 01:32:55.239
that are broken from the human side. And we address

01:32:55.239 --> 01:32:57.779
the mental health side, the physical fitness

01:32:57.779 --> 01:33:01.020
side, and most importantly, the work week. That

01:33:01.020 --> 01:33:04.340
is a legacy that I feel my generation can leave

01:33:04.340 --> 01:33:07.020
because I'm not going to invent another version

01:33:07.020 --> 01:33:10.039
of a halogen. The halogen is a halogen. The door

01:33:10.039 --> 01:33:12.640
opens, you know, the nozzle puts the water out.

01:33:12.760 --> 01:33:14.520
I mean, so whatever nozzle is, the water still

01:33:14.520 --> 01:33:18.119
puts the fire out. But the opportunity that we

01:33:18.119 --> 01:33:21.520
have as our profession to revolutionize the health

01:33:21.520 --> 01:33:24.979
side and the performance side and absolutely

01:33:24.979 --> 01:33:29.479
reverse the huge detrimental element, not only

01:33:29.479 --> 01:33:32.399
to family relationships, but the actual pediatric

01:33:32.399 --> 01:33:35.020
diseases that we pass to our children through

01:33:35.020 --> 01:33:38.239
the impacts of sleep deprivation, which is a

01:33:38.239 --> 01:33:41.340
complete direct correlation as well. We can reverse

01:33:41.340 --> 01:33:44.819
all of that. So to me, that's the legacy. That

01:33:44.819 --> 01:33:46.619
we leave. And this is why these conversations.

01:33:46.699 --> 01:33:49.119
People like you are so important. Because you're

01:33:49.119 --> 01:33:51.279
a respected voice in the fire service. You are

01:33:51.279 --> 01:33:54.600
from a generation before mine. And to hear you.

01:33:54.859 --> 01:33:57.899
Talk about all these things. I think is such

01:33:57.899 --> 01:34:01.779
a powerful voice. That we need to hear. You know

01:34:01.779 --> 01:34:08.600
that. That moves me. Because without. You knowing

01:34:08.600 --> 01:34:16.050
that. My brother. Who. became a firefighter uh

01:34:16.050 --> 01:34:19.670
for reasons because he felt that he never i think

01:34:19.670 --> 01:34:21.369
he really became a firefighter because he thought

01:34:21.369 --> 01:34:24.649
he never uh had the respect of my father which

01:34:24.649 --> 01:34:28.630
goes back to that whole childhood thing um hated

01:34:28.630 --> 01:34:32.069
the fire service he hated it because my dad was

01:34:32.069 --> 01:34:37.890
never home and there were six of us so back then

01:34:37.890 --> 01:34:39.449
firefighters didn't make the kind of money we

01:34:39.449 --> 01:34:42.850
make so he was always at a part -time job so

01:34:42.850 --> 01:34:45.680
if he wasn't in the you know doing the firefighting

01:34:45.680 --> 01:34:48.020
thing he was part -time work so on and so forth

01:34:48.020 --> 01:34:53.920
so my brother hated it and i think he only became

01:34:53.920 --> 01:34:56.279
a firefighter once he got there he you know fell

01:34:56.279 --> 01:34:58.720
in love with it because my brother was truly

01:34:58.720 --> 01:35:03.640
one who wanted to make the world better uh but

01:35:03.640 --> 01:35:08.279
he hated it so it's interesting when you say

01:35:08.279 --> 01:35:11.729
that because my when when he came home and told

01:35:11.729 --> 01:35:13.949
my dad hey i'm graduating from the fire academy

01:35:13.949 --> 01:35:17.829
would you like to come next week my dad almost

01:35:17.829 --> 01:35:20.670
fell on the floor because as far as my father

01:35:20.670 --> 01:35:22.710
knew he was in the construction industry he wasn't

01:35:22.710 --> 01:35:27.930
you know in the fire academy uh so yeah it's

01:35:27.930 --> 01:35:30.729
you know let's let's be the ones that change

01:35:30.729 --> 01:35:36.630
it let's be the ones let's be the ones bold enough

01:35:36.630 --> 01:35:43.939
not to say that's the way it always was let's

01:35:43.939 --> 01:35:49.600
be the ones bold enough to create a culture that

01:35:49.600 --> 01:35:53.619
is not toxic to create a culture that brings

01:35:53.619 --> 01:36:01.500
people in from day one and says hey look i know

01:36:01.500 --> 01:36:03.479
exactly how you're feeling because i was in your

01:36:03.479 --> 01:36:07.880
shoes i had a probie day too i had my first day

01:36:07.880 --> 01:36:11.069
in a firehouse too And my job as a senior person

01:36:11.069 --> 01:36:15.930
is to do this. I'm going to take you and make

01:36:15.930 --> 01:36:20.130
you me. Because I want you, you are in the best

01:36:20.130 --> 01:36:23.350
company in the city. You are in the biggest,

01:36:23.489 --> 01:36:27.529
baddest, best company in the city. We have pride.

01:36:28.210 --> 01:36:33.430
We have cohesiveness. We have culture. And I'm

01:36:33.430 --> 01:36:37.569
going to make you me. So let's go out and let's...

01:36:37.869 --> 01:36:39.750
Have you sit in a rig. Let's do these things.

01:36:39.869 --> 01:36:43.250
Let's prepare you. Let's make you part of the

01:36:43.250 --> 01:36:48.130
team from day one. Not spend the time. You know,

01:36:48.170 --> 01:36:51.750
I'm not, I want to be clear. There's a difference

01:36:51.750 --> 01:36:55.789
between breaking chops in the firehouse, joking

01:36:55.789 --> 01:36:57.850
and having fun, doing the kind of things that,

01:36:57.850 --> 01:37:01.229
you know, wouldn't be acceptable in my, in the

01:37:01.229 --> 01:37:04.829
office of Conway Shield. Because that's corporate

01:37:04.829 --> 01:37:08.640
America. There's a difference between that and

01:37:08.640 --> 01:37:11.600
having an individual spend 24 hours soaking wet.

01:37:13.439 --> 01:37:16.420
For what reason? Oh, because we always soak the

01:37:16.420 --> 01:37:20.979
cub down every day. Why? I don't know. Go back

01:37:20.979 --> 01:37:23.760
to the three whys. Let's be the ones that change

01:37:23.760 --> 01:37:27.220
it. Let's be the ones that make this. This is,

01:37:27.239 --> 01:37:30.279
you know, you're right. When you were saying

01:37:30.279 --> 01:37:34.319
that she can be an amazing mistress and she can

01:37:34.319 --> 01:37:47.039
be. Because there is nothing greater than knowing

01:37:47.039 --> 01:37:49.119
that there's people out walking the face of the

01:37:49.119 --> 01:37:57.319
earth, that you had something in that happening

01:37:57.319 --> 01:38:01.180
for them, that you gave them the opportunity

01:38:01.180 --> 01:38:06.359
by what you did. So it is an amazing profession.

01:38:07.979 --> 01:38:12.180
I've seen some amazing things that have truly

01:38:12.180 --> 01:38:17.479
been just blessings. So it isn't that it's all

01:38:17.479 --> 01:38:24.300
bad. But let's do what we can. As much as we

01:38:24.300 --> 01:38:28.920
care for the citizens that we serve, let's do

01:38:28.920 --> 01:38:31.640
more than just say they're our brothers and sisters.

01:38:31.960 --> 01:38:35.180
Let's truly treat them. like our brothers and

01:38:35.180 --> 01:38:38.260
sisters. And let's truly look at their well -being,

01:38:38.380 --> 01:38:40.739
look at their physical fitness, look at their

01:38:40.739 --> 01:38:45.439
mental health, bring them in so we can carry

01:38:45.439 --> 01:38:48.500
on these conversations and we can look at these

01:38:48.500 --> 01:38:54.239
things that are much deeper. You know, when you

01:38:54.239 --> 01:38:56.880
mentioned that childhood trauma, that really

01:38:56.880 --> 01:39:01.260
intrigues me because I knew so many firefighters

01:39:01.260 --> 01:39:04.170
that had really tough and i know the military

01:39:04.170 --> 01:39:06.449
is no different you talk to those guys you know

01:39:06.449 --> 01:39:09.310
i'm i know you're the same thing you interview

01:39:09.310 --> 01:39:11.130
people and they go well i barely made it out

01:39:11.130 --> 01:39:14.149
of high school i was either going to jail or

01:39:14.149 --> 01:39:16.670
going to the service or the fire department or

01:39:16.670 --> 01:39:20.829
whatever i really didn't get along with my parents

01:39:20.829 --> 01:39:23.210
or i had this you know all of those things it's

01:39:23.210 --> 01:39:26.149
like over i can make you can build you can build

01:39:26.149 --> 01:39:30.689
their box before you interview so it is what

01:39:30.689 --> 01:39:34.399
it is something of our culture And I've never

01:39:34.399 --> 01:39:36.500
addressed it. I've never looked at it that way.

01:39:36.779 --> 01:39:41.420
And it intrigues me. But let's, you know, we

01:39:41.420 --> 01:39:44.600
have an opportunity. Let's do the right thing.

01:39:45.539 --> 01:39:49.260
Let's be bold. There's fire chiefs out there.

01:39:49.380 --> 01:39:52.819
You know, I know Milwaukee, Eric Dawn's the union

01:39:52.819 --> 01:39:54.720
president and Aaron Lipsky's the fire chief.

01:39:55.399 --> 01:39:58.119
Those two are working like this and they're doing

01:39:58.119 --> 01:39:59.640
everything they can to make that job better.

01:40:00.520 --> 01:40:02.579
Well, there's no reason we can't do that all

01:40:02.579 --> 01:40:07.000
across the country. There's no reason. We should

01:40:07.000 --> 01:40:09.100
really, truly, instead of, let's not talk the

01:40:09.100 --> 01:40:12.300
game. Let's not go to a funeral like we did yesterday

01:40:12.300 --> 01:40:20.079
and spend an hour and then go home and then just

01:40:20.079 --> 01:40:23.020
continue on like it's another day. Let's fix

01:40:23.020 --> 01:40:27.359
it. But let's address it way left to bang, as

01:40:27.359 --> 01:40:30.100
you put it. Let's put it way out here. let's

01:40:30.100 --> 01:40:36.239
start way out here not oh it happened again because

01:40:36.239 --> 01:40:41.060
it's crazy you know i know that i know that social

01:40:41.060 --> 01:40:45.399
media you know is is this cesspool of information

01:40:45.399 --> 01:40:55.180
but it seems like almost daily somebody in our

01:40:55.180 --> 01:40:58.039
profession is either dying of cancer or taking

01:40:58.039 --> 01:41:04.359
their life That's unacceptable. That's freaking

01:41:04.359 --> 01:41:07.840
unacceptable. And I think, you know, I'll get

01:41:07.840 --> 01:41:09.640
on the cancer thing for a second if you'll allow

01:41:09.640 --> 01:41:12.180
me. I think that I used to look at my guys because

01:41:12.180 --> 01:41:14.220
I was a person that, you know, my dad never wore

01:41:14.220 --> 01:41:16.340
a mask. I don't think he knew how to put it on

01:41:16.340 --> 01:41:20.000
his back. So I was raised in that tough it out,

01:41:20.140 --> 01:41:22.600
suck the carpet, you know, lick the lint off

01:41:22.600 --> 01:41:27.619
the floor. But I used to tell my young guys.

01:41:30.420 --> 01:41:36.000
Don't be me. Be smart. Because if I was going

01:41:36.000 --> 01:41:39.119
to, you know, if we take the cancer thing and

01:41:39.119 --> 01:41:43.159
I say, all right, every time you don't wear your

01:41:43.159 --> 01:41:44.619
mask, I'm going to hit you in the head with a

01:41:44.619 --> 01:41:48.260
hammer. You'd put your mask on. Because cancer

01:41:48.260 --> 01:41:50.119
is that thing down the road. It gets back to

01:41:50.119 --> 01:41:53.720
my valve. If you're not worried about it, it's

01:41:53.720 --> 01:41:57.090
no big deal. But when you're heading into surgery

01:41:57.090 --> 01:41:59.630
and they're about to give you that little IV

01:41:59.630 --> 01:42:03.750
drip and you think, I may not wake up, hey, that's

01:42:03.750 --> 01:42:07.029
a different deal, baby. That's a whole different

01:42:07.029 --> 01:42:14.329
view. So let's be proactive. Let's make this,

01:42:14.390 --> 01:42:17.470
this is the best job in the world. This is the

01:42:17.470 --> 01:42:20.949
most amazing craft. This is the best career you

01:42:20.949 --> 01:42:27.510
could ever have. Let's take away the things that

01:42:27.510 --> 01:42:31.810
beat up the people who raise their right hand

01:42:31.810 --> 01:42:39.750
to the completely up to their own lives to protect

01:42:39.750 --> 01:42:42.289
the citizens of the community they serve. Let's

01:42:42.289 --> 01:42:46.920
fix that. Absolutely. 100%. Well, I think that's

01:42:46.920 --> 01:42:49.260
a beautiful place to round off. I don't want

01:42:49.260 --> 01:42:51.640
to let you go, though, without talking about

01:42:51.640 --> 01:42:54.300
Conway Shield, even though it's been such a beautiful,

01:42:54.399 --> 01:42:56.279
organic conversation. I haven't even touched

01:42:56.279 --> 01:42:59.300
some of the areas I normally talk about, but

01:42:59.300 --> 01:43:02.119
I think this is what's so incredible. And when

01:43:02.119 --> 01:43:04.380
I was on your podcast and we had the phone call

01:43:04.380 --> 01:43:06.739
before, all of our conversations have been very

01:43:06.739 --> 01:43:11.020
similar. So talk to me about the origin story

01:43:11.020 --> 01:43:13.300
of Conway Shield and then what are the things

01:43:13.300 --> 01:43:17.329
that you're making today in 2025? Sure. So, like

01:43:17.329 --> 01:43:20.350
all good firefighters, you know, we all have

01:43:20.350 --> 01:43:23.210
a side gig. Because, again, when I started, it

01:43:23.210 --> 01:43:27.170
was $14 ,000 a year. That was the pay. Now, granted,

01:43:27.170 --> 01:43:29.409
my house was only $49 ,000, so things are all

01:43:29.409 --> 01:43:34.710
relative. A friend of mine came to me and knew

01:43:34.710 --> 01:43:36.810
I was in the fire service. He was one of my academy

01:43:36.810 --> 01:43:39.329
partners. We became good friends in the academy.

01:43:39.529 --> 01:43:42.149
He was an Iowa, I always call him an Iowa pig

01:43:42.149 --> 01:43:47.840
farmer, but he was from Iowa. He went to order

01:43:47.840 --> 01:43:50.020
his front shield, his helmet shield. And they

01:43:50.020 --> 01:43:52.479
said it would be about 12 weeks. And he came

01:43:52.479 --> 01:43:54.399
to me and he said, well, is this the way it is?

01:43:54.460 --> 01:43:56.659
And I said, yeah, that's it. You know, there's

01:43:56.659 --> 01:43:59.760
only one manufacturer. It's just the way it is,

01:43:59.779 --> 01:44:02.520
bro. Well, that's baloney. We should do something

01:44:02.520 --> 01:44:05.260
about it. Well, I happened to my roommate, who

01:44:05.260 --> 01:44:07.800
was also a firefighter, happened to his dad was

01:44:07.800 --> 01:44:10.300
in the leather business. So he said, well, my

01:44:10.300 --> 01:44:13.079
dad's got leather at his house, man. Go over

01:44:13.079 --> 01:44:15.380
there. So we grabbed a couple hides of leather.

01:44:16.779 --> 01:44:19.699
Craig and I started hand -cutting shields. And

01:44:19.699 --> 01:44:21.359
I see these guys on the internet now. They're

01:44:21.359 --> 01:44:23.460
hand -cutting stuff and sewing, you know, all

01:44:23.460 --> 01:44:25.340
that. And it's like, man, I started that way.

01:44:25.380 --> 01:44:28.520
Keep up the great work, man. And I always laugh

01:44:28.520 --> 01:44:30.020
because they'll send something back like, well,

01:44:30.039 --> 01:44:32.060
dude, you're the OG. Everybody wants to be you.

01:44:32.479 --> 01:44:34.840
Well, no, it's not about that. It's about that,

01:44:34.899 --> 01:44:37.380
you know, it's great to see that you're doing

01:44:37.380 --> 01:44:43.100
the same thing I did. And you'll get there. That

01:44:43.100 --> 01:44:46.180
started our first year in 1980. We incorporated

01:44:46.180 --> 01:44:49.300
in 1985. So it'll be we actually started in 1984.

01:44:49.340 --> 01:44:52.319
We incorporated in 85. So it's 40 years this

01:44:52.319 --> 01:44:57.300
year. We made 421 front shields the first year.

01:44:57.880 --> 01:45:01.100
And and I think we made six thousand dollars.

01:45:01.180 --> 01:45:03.819
We thought, holy cow. And like any good company,

01:45:03.960 --> 01:45:06.539
I think we spent seven thousand dollars. So it

01:45:06.539 --> 01:45:10.720
was a win. Anyway, within a couple of years.

01:45:12.179 --> 01:45:14.479
Unfortunately, Craig was given the option to

01:45:14.479 --> 01:45:20.319
either get out or be divorced. So he took the

01:45:20.319 --> 01:45:23.619
right thing and he got out and we continue to

01:45:23.619 --> 01:45:28.840
grow. At this current time, Conway Shield is

01:45:28.840 --> 01:45:33.260
really three different, there's three different

01:45:33.260 --> 01:45:35.840
channels, four actually, but there's three. The

01:45:35.840 --> 01:45:37.779
first one is our manufacturing, which we only,

01:45:37.840 --> 01:45:40.619
we manufacture helmet shields. we manufacture

01:45:40.619 --> 01:45:44.359
about a hundred thousand of those a year um we

01:45:44.359 --> 01:45:48.319
have close to uh 40 people 40 some people working

01:45:48.319 --> 01:45:51.340
for us total um but so there's the manufacturing

01:45:51.340 --> 01:45:54.720
division then there's the resale which is uh

01:45:54.720 --> 01:46:02.680
we cover oh six states i think with boots on

01:46:02.680 --> 01:46:04.800
the ground salesmen selling everything from head

01:46:04.800 --> 01:46:07.020
to toe protective clothing we really pretty much

01:46:07.020 --> 01:46:09.479
stay in that field we stay in the protective

01:46:09.479 --> 01:46:14.699
clothing area um most of my guys are are uh firefighters

01:46:14.699 --> 01:46:16.880
that this is what they do in their part -time

01:46:16.880 --> 01:46:20.220
gig um so we're we're blessed and very successful

01:46:20.220 --> 01:46:25.460
in that um we have a some some partners uh suppliers

01:46:25.460 --> 01:46:28.020
that are really wonderful and help us out considerably

01:46:28.020 --> 01:46:31.439
um within that is another division we bought

01:46:31.439 --> 01:46:33.020
a couple years ago we bought a company called

01:46:33.020 --> 01:46:37.020
chief's choice that makes um training smoke and

01:46:37.020 --> 01:46:40.060
turnout gear wash And then vehicle wash, things

01:46:40.060 --> 01:46:43.319
like that. So we didn't want to see that company

01:46:43.319 --> 01:46:48.039
go under. So we bought them. So within the resale

01:46:48.039 --> 01:46:52.619
is that company. And then lastly, and for me,

01:46:52.640 --> 01:46:56.039
I'm retired. My son now runs the business. So

01:46:56.039 --> 01:47:01.039
he is the CEO. So I have gone off and we have

01:47:01.039 --> 01:47:06.609
a training division. So we do. The third group

01:47:06.609 --> 01:47:10.210
is training. And basically we focus on leadership

01:47:10.210 --> 01:47:15.829
and on developing culture and talking about,

01:47:15.850 --> 01:47:19.789
you know, the things we talked about here, about

01:47:19.789 --> 01:47:22.489
how to make it better. Anybody, you know, there's

01:47:22.489 --> 01:47:24.170
a lot of great companies out there that teach

01:47:24.170 --> 01:47:25.989
people how to force doors, things like that.

01:47:27.050 --> 01:47:29.550
So we're not that. We come in and we want to

01:47:29.550 --> 01:47:32.130
break things down. We really coach. We don't

01:47:32.130 --> 01:47:35.149
instruct. We coach. And we want to open up conversations

01:47:35.149 --> 01:47:37.930
and bring people to come out and say, no, you

01:47:37.930 --> 01:47:41.210
know what? You're full of crap. Okay, why? Tell

01:47:41.210 --> 01:47:43.970
me why. And let's figure that out. You know,

01:47:43.970 --> 01:47:47.149
one of the things that I start, and I just, if

01:47:47.149 --> 01:47:49.949
you give me the moment, I opened one of my classes

01:47:49.949 --> 01:47:54.869
with, I walk in a room, it's an officer candidate

01:47:54.869 --> 01:47:57.989
class, basically. So it's new lieutenants or

01:47:57.989 --> 01:48:03.020
people aspiring. And I say, How many here are

01:48:03.020 --> 01:48:05.979
firefighters? And the guys raise their hands.

01:48:06.260 --> 01:48:09.000
How many are our lieutenants? And the guys raise

01:48:09.000 --> 01:48:12.500
their hands. And I say, when I look at, usually

01:48:12.500 --> 01:48:16.060
a chief brings me in. I look at the chief and

01:48:16.060 --> 01:48:18.819
I go, what am I supposed to do with these cats?

01:48:20.220 --> 01:48:22.100
Firefighters, really? You give me firefighters

01:48:22.100 --> 01:48:24.680
and then a bunch of new lieutenants. What am

01:48:24.680 --> 01:48:26.520
I supposed to do? I don't even know what the

01:48:26.520 --> 01:48:30.199
heck I'm doing here, but I'll do my best. And

01:48:30.199 --> 01:48:31.739
then I look at the guys and I go. How'd that

01:48:31.739 --> 01:48:35.199
make you feel? And they all give me that made

01:48:35.199 --> 01:48:38.579
me feel like you should piss off. I said, exactly.

01:48:38.819 --> 01:48:40.739
Well, that's what you do to every single probationary

01:48:40.739 --> 01:48:42.460
firefighter when they walk in the door and you

01:48:42.460 --> 01:48:48.579
treat them that way. Oh, so that's the kind of

01:48:48.579 --> 01:48:50.340
thing we do. We want to bring that. We want to

01:48:50.340 --> 01:48:53.800
bring the discussion. So that's it. You know,

01:48:53.819 --> 01:48:59.659
I've been blessed because it's nothing to do

01:48:59.659 --> 01:49:02.720
with me. I really have some amazing people around

01:49:02.720 --> 01:49:07.960
me. My dad taught me. My dad didn't finish high

01:49:07.960 --> 01:49:09.640
school. He went off to go fight the Japanese.

01:49:11.520 --> 01:49:14.600
So he taught me, son, surround yourself with

01:49:14.600 --> 01:49:16.439
people smarter than you would be the dumbest

01:49:16.439 --> 01:49:19.760
guy in the room. And I took that to heart. And

01:49:19.760 --> 01:49:22.180
it's worked out well for me because I'm surrounded

01:49:22.180 --> 01:49:26.420
by really good people. And in our job, you know,

01:49:26.420 --> 01:49:29.359
we stand by it. At Conway Shield, we protect

01:49:29.359 --> 01:49:31.699
courage. and we've been doing it for 40 years

01:49:31.699 --> 01:49:34.380
and we'll continue to protect courage because

01:49:34.380 --> 01:49:37.500
every single day every single day whether it

01:49:37.500 --> 01:49:39.420
be law enforcement or the american fire service

01:49:39.420 --> 01:49:46.640
people go to work and they risk their lives and

01:49:46.640 --> 01:49:49.380
i'd like to give them the best opportunity because

01:49:49.380 --> 01:49:51.760
there are no promises i'd like to give them the

01:49:51.760 --> 01:49:54.420
best opportunity to come home and every single

01:49:54.420 --> 01:49:56.520
person in my shop believes that way believes

01:49:56.520 --> 01:50:00.699
that if you are in our office You will see above

01:50:00.699 --> 01:50:02.859
one of our doors, I know they do this in football

01:50:02.859 --> 01:50:06.479
all the time, but above one of our doors is a

01:50:06.479 --> 01:50:10.840
captain's shield that says it's a three truck

01:50:10.840 --> 01:50:17.020
from FDNY. And we have it there because in the

01:50:17.020 --> 01:50:25.880
museum, where when you go into the museum at

01:50:25.880 --> 01:50:28.420
three truck, That's there and it's all collapsed

01:50:28.420 --> 01:50:31.220
and busted and everything else. Patty Brown's

01:50:31.220 --> 01:50:34.420
helmet is under glass. And that front shield

01:50:34.420 --> 01:50:37.199
that's on there, if you look on the back, it

01:50:37.199 --> 01:50:42.899
says Conway Shield. And I know at least one of

01:50:42.899 --> 01:50:46.079
those 343, and I know there's more, but at least

01:50:46.079 --> 01:50:50.300
one ascended those steps thinking nothing but

01:50:50.300 --> 01:50:54.000
to rescue civilians wearing a Conway Shield.

01:50:56.039 --> 01:50:59.359
We believe it. And my employees can look at that

01:50:59.359 --> 01:51:01.539
every single day and know that that's what they're

01:51:01.539 --> 01:51:03.939
here for and that's what they're doing. So in

01:51:03.939 --> 01:51:06.979
a nutshell, there's my long extended elevator

01:51:06.979 --> 01:51:10.279
speech on Conway Shield. But I appreciate you

01:51:10.279 --> 01:51:12.199
giving me the time. I really didn't expect that

01:51:12.199 --> 01:51:17.579
at all. But you know what? They love what they

01:51:17.579 --> 01:51:20.180
do. You know, we have a family atmosphere there.

01:51:20.300 --> 01:51:22.319
And I say that in the idea of it's a firehouse.

01:51:22.810 --> 01:51:25.329
We break bread with each other every Wednesday.

01:51:25.489 --> 01:51:28.069
Or we, I don't, they do. They break bread with

01:51:28.069 --> 01:51:30.949
each other every Wednesday. It's okay to joke

01:51:30.949 --> 01:51:34.409
around. It's okay to be able to tell somebody

01:51:34.409 --> 01:51:38.149
that might be over the line. Oh, I'm sorry. Please

01:51:38.149 --> 01:51:41.630
accept my apology. So yeah, it's a great group

01:51:41.630 --> 01:51:46.420
of people. Wonderful place. Amazing. I had the

01:51:46.420 --> 01:51:49.460
actor Bobby Burke on a couple of times now and

01:51:49.460 --> 01:51:52.739
really good friends with with Patty. So that

01:51:52.739 --> 01:51:54.960
was that was actually the reason that he joined

01:51:54.960 --> 01:51:58.220
the volunteer fire service. So here's a here's

01:51:58.220 --> 01:52:03.199
a funny story. Well, this is a good thing. One

01:52:03.199 --> 01:52:05.380
of those funny things to end on. So my daughter

01:52:05.380 --> 01:52:11.340
used to watch this something girls, gossip girls

01:52:11.340 --> 01:52:13.399
or something like that. And he was in there.

01:52:13.619 --> 01:52:18.479
I think he was the father. And I took her to

01:52:18.479 --> 01:52:20.859
New York one day so she could walk around all

01:52:20.859 --> 01:52:22.380
these places, which I didn't know what we were

01:52:22.380 --> 01:52:24.119
doing. She wanted to see this place and this

01:52:24.119 --> 01:52:25.960
place. I'm like, what are we doing? Then she

01:52:25.960 --> 01:52:29.220
finally explained it to me. And I said, so then

01:52:29.220 --> 01:52:34.680
earlier, a good friend of mine, Timmy Brown,

01:52:34.840 --> 01:52:41.380
that was a small little cabal. So Burke and actually

01:52:41.380 --> 01:52:43.989
back in the day. Because I've known Timmy for

01:52:43.989 --> 01:52:46.609
the same time I met him in 1980, something like

01:52:46.609 --> 01:52:49.670
82. He came on New York City the same time I

01:52:49.670 --> 01:52:52.090
came on Milwaukee. And that's how we became friends.

01:52:53.350 --> 01:52:56.710
So they used to hang out at this place that Buscemi

01:52:56.710 --> 01:53:00.250
used to be there and Donna Carrington and all

01:53:00.250 --> 01:53:01.970
this other, you know, people back in the day.

01:53:03.270 --> 01:53:07.470
Well, Burke, this is later on, years later. But

01:53:07.470 --> 01:53:10.310
I got to meet him and I got some pictures of

01:53:10.310 --> 01:53:12.359
like, we're all just here. you know to me he's

01:53:12.359 --> 01:53:14.680
just okay he's an actor and i know i don't take

01:53:14.680 --> 01:53:16.640
anything away from him but you know i don't know

01:53:16.640 --> 01:53:19.800
him from adam and my daughter sees it and says

01:53:19.800 --> 01:53:22.340
wait a minute you know whatever his name was

01:53:22.340 --> 01:53:26.960
in the on the show you know him i'm like well

01:53:26.960 --> 01:53:29.560
honey i don't really know him but yeah i was

01:53:29.560 --> 01:53:33.119
with him oh my god i can't believe that you know

01:53:33.119 --> 01:53:37.220
it was like we were in a room like hey uh timmy

01:53:37.220 --> 01:53:39.840
goes hey this is bobby burke hey paul conway

01:53:39.840 --> 01:53:42.279
nice to meet you you know later on i'm like who's

01:53:42.279 --> 01:53:44.979
bobby burke because i don't follow acting a lot

01:53:44.979 --> 01:53:48.960
you know like dude he's an actor oh cool okay

01:53:48.960 --> 01:53:51.819
you know whatever but yeah so i i actually have

01:53:51.819 --> 01:53:54.220
i haven't met him uh he seemed like a very nice

01:53:54.220 --> 01:53:56.960
dude you know i mean i i do laugh that i see

01:53:56.960 --> 01:54:00.979
some of the people you you have on um recently

01:54:00.979 --> 01:54:03.420
it was kind of and i know i'm off topic now but

01:54:03.420 --> 01:54:07.159
you had uh the guy from sicario uh josh brolin

01:54:07.159 --> 01:54:10.840
yeah yeah I was like, oh, dude, I'll have to

01:54:10.840 --> 01:54:13.319
listen to that because, you know, he seems like

01:54:13.319 --> 01:54:15.979
a pretty I only watched a couple of little snippets

01:54:15.979 --> 01:54:17.779
of it. He seemed like a pretty interesting cat.

01:54:18.300 --> 01:54:21.619
Yeah, no, he is. Well, Bobby, Bobby and Johnny

01:54:21.619 --> 01:54:24.399
Lee Miller more recently, who was in Trainspotting.

01:54:24.399 --> 01:54:26.220
I don't know if you ever watched that film, but

01:54:26.220 --> 01:54:29.550
Bobby has been a volunteer now for. I think basically

01:54:29.550 --> 01:54:32.090
since 9 -11. So, you know, whatever, like 23

01:54:32.090 --> 01:54:35.970
years now. Johnny D. Miller just joined the neighboring

01:54:35.970 --> 01:54:38.789
company. So those two train now, which is really

01:54:38.789 --> 01:54:41.149
cool. And then Josh, a lot of people don't know

01:54:41.149 --> 01:54:43.649
this, he volunteered for three seasons as a wildland

01:54:43.649 --> 01:54:45.850
firefighter when he was kind of in his, I think

01:54:45.850 --> 01:54:49.260
it was 20s. So another guy who actually has worn

01:54:49.260 --> 01:54:52.819
the uniform. So yeah, some of these actors we

01:54:52.819 --> 01:54:55.399
know are just flaming narcissists, but there's

01:54:55.399 --> 01:54:57.100
a lot of people that do that as a profession

01:54:57.100 --> 01:54:59.659
that are phenomenal, phenomenal human beings.

01:54:59.920 --> 01:55:03.140
Oh, absolutely. And I know that if I remember,

01:55:03.300 --> 01:55:09.939
Captain of 21 Engine, his last name was Burke.

01:55:10.060 --> 01:55:15.310
I think they were related. I don't. I'm trying

01:55:15.310 --> 01:55:17.250
to remember the story, but I think that's how

01:55:17.250 --> 01:55:20.489
it all came together. Because the captain at

01:55:20.489 --> 01:55:24.289
21 Engine was killed on the 11th. But I think

01:55:24.289 --> 01:55:27.029
his last name was Burke, too. I think they were

01:55:27.029 --> 01:55:30.489
related. I'm just pulling things out of my tail

01:55:30.489 --> 01:55:33.869
now. Well, one quick question before I throw

01:55:33.869 --> 01:55:35.770
some closing questions at you. You mentioned

01:55:35.770 --> 01:55:37.829
about your dad going off to fight the Japanese.

01:55:38.090 --> 01:55:40.350
My book that I've just written, which, funny

01:55:40.350 --> 01:55:42.689
enough, talking about acting. finishing up the

01:55:42.689 --> 01:55:46.649
screenplay now for the pilot, hell bent on getting

01:55:46.649 --> 01:55:48.850
that on the screen to really, you know, you talk

01:55:48.850 --> 01:55:50.890
about hearts and minds. Imagine if you had a

01:55:50.890 --> 01:55:53.850
show about us that every, you know, a lot of

01:55:53.850 --> 01:55:56.850
Americans saw our profession, the families, you

01:55:56.850 --> 01:55:59.170
know, the, the civilians, the impact that you

01:55:59.170 --> 01:56:01.430
could have with a, you know, raw, real show,

01:56:01.569 --> 01:56:05.750
not, not some cheesy soap opera. Not somewhere

01:56:05.750 --> 01:56:07.649
we're having love affairs in a firehouse like

01:56:07.649 --> 01:56:10.050
Chicago Fire or whatever. Yeah, exactly. A bunch

01:56:10.050 --> 01:56:13.250
of models saving people, as I always say. But,

01:56:13.390 --> 01:56:15.949
you know, one of the other themes in the book

01:56:15.949 --> 01:56:18.170
is multigenerational trauma. Now, you mentioned

01:56:18.170 --> 01:56:23.079
about your dad coming home from war. When you

01:56:23.079 --> 01:56:26.439
reflect back now, his service in World War II

01:56:26.439 --> 01:56:29.079
and or the fire service, because especially that

01:56:29.079 --> 01:56:31.460
generation, we romanticize that they came back

01:56:31.460 --> 01:56:33.500
from war and they just rolled up their sleeves

01:56:33.500 --> 01:56:35.840
and they went to work and they were absolutely

01:56:35.840 --> 01:56:38.060
fine. Not like our generation, we're all whining

01:56:38.060 --> 01:56:41.500
about feelings. But you listen to the fathers,

01:56:41.579 --> 01:56:43.319
the grandfathers, that generation. And a lot

01:56:43.319 --> 01:56:45.859
of times that wasn't the case. It did have an

01:56:45.859 --> 01:56:48.079
impact when they came back. When you reflect

01:56:48.079 --> 01:56:50.899
back now, what is your perception with this mature

01:56:50.899 --> 01:56:58.359
lens that you have today? I will say that my,

01:56:58.560 --> 01:57:02.560
first off, the love that my father has for the

01:57:02.560 --> 01:57:06.659
United States Navy, or had till the day he died,

01:57:06.779 --> 01:57:10.619
was unbelievable. So there was something there,

01:57:10.659 --> 01:57:16.479
there was a bond there that was second to none.

01:57:16.960 --> 01:57:21.000
I wish now, because my dad didn't talk a lot

01:57:21.000 --> 01:57:22.840
about it, like most of those guys apparently

01:57:22.840 --> 01:57:29.600
did, that I wish now, when he was showing me

01:57:29.600 --> 01:57:32.560
all these islands, Okinawa, Sasebo, all these

01:57:32.560 --> 01:57:35.239
places, I wish I would have paid more attention.

01:57:36.199 --> 01:57:40.960
Because he would talk about dropping Marines

01:57:40.960 --> 01:57:45.100
here and dropping Marines there, and I just didn't

01:57:45.100 --> 01:57:47.850
pay attention. and i wish i could i wish i would

01:57:47.850 --> 01:57:53.550
have um i know this i know that my dad was not

01:57:53.550 --> 01:57:59.189
you know perfect um and i'm sure there were things

01:57:59.189 --> 01:58:02.949
that that i know affected him i know one day

01:58:02.949 --> 01:58:05.470
he brought yeah you know he used to tell a story

01:58:05.470 --> 01:58:07.170
about they had to throw all their food overboard

01:58:07.170 --> 01:58:09.149
because there was no more place there was no

01:58:09.149 --> 01:58:12.149
place to store in marines anymore so they they

01:58:12.149 --> 01:58:16.470
put them in the food coolers um And I know that

01:58:16.470 --> 01:58:19.250
bothered him because he constantly brought it

01:58:19.250 --> 01:58:23.449
up. I know that the suffering, because he made

01:58:23.449 --> 01:58:26.430
many mention of not being, you know, starving.

01:58:26.590 --> 01:58:28.529
You don't know what starving is. Kids ate out

01:58:28.529 --> 01:58:30.189
of my garbage can. You know, all that other things

01:58:30.189 --> 01:58:36.189
that came on with war. I do know, you know, that

01:58:36.189 --> 01:58:41.590
my good friend, when I was growing up, his dad,

01:58:41.729 --> 01:58:45.880
my neighbor, his dad. used to lose his mind on

01:58:45.880 --> 01:58:49.460
a regular basis i mean he would go nuts drop

01:58:49.460 --> 01:58:53.899
something he would go crazy well we didn't know

01:58:53.899 --> 01:58:59.100
it till he died but when he died his dad was

01:58:59.100 --> 01:59:02.979
in the ranger battalion that scaled point to

01:59:02.979 --> 01:59:09.460
hawk as a young man i'm thinking i don't know

01:59:09.460 --> 01:59:10.960
what's wrong with this old man but he's nuts

01:59:10.960 --> 01:59:15.229
yeah he was nuts he was shell shocked you know

01:59:15.229 --> 01:59:19.390
and and but nobody knew it so yeah you know i

01:59:19.390 --> 01:59:25.829
mean to think that they just that's wrong my

01:59:25.829 --> 01:59:28.449
other friend his dad was sir was in the service

01:59:28.449 --> 01:59:32.449
his dad was a drunk end of story you know so

01:59:32.449 --> 01:59:35.829
so those you know the human conditions were all

01:59:35.829 --> 01:59:38.210
the same it didn't you know maybe those people

01:59:38.210 --> 01:59:40.670
were harder you know my grandparents were depression

01:59:40.670 --> 01:59:44.329
era people You know, they were both my grandfather's,

01:59:44.329 --> 01:59:48.590
both World War I service. You know, they might

01:59:48.590 --> 01:59:52.569
have been harder, but emotionally, internally,

01:59:53.069 --> 01:59:56.930
we're all human. You know, we just had a harder

01:59:56.930 --> 02:00:01.750
outside shell. So, yeah, looking back, definitely,

02:00:02.069 --> 02:00:06.829
you know, if you talk to my sister, she'll say

02:00:06.829 --> 02:00:10.189
there was all kinds of mental strife in the house.

02:00:11.149 --> 02:00:13.689
i don't remember maybe i don't remember because

02:00:13.689 --> 02:00:15.449
i blocked it out maybe one day it'll all come

02:00:15.449 --> 02:00:18.649
to me i don't know but uh she'll say oh no you

02:00:18.649 --> 02:00:23.010
know it was crazy around our house maybe you

02:00:23.010 --> 02:00:28.310
know she sees it differently so yeah yeah yeah

02:00:28.310 --> 02:00:30.369
just that's it you know just that my dad really

02:00:30.369 --> 02:00:36.050
didn't say much about it um but i know that again

02:00:36.050 --> 02:00:38.390
he was in the navy so he was on a troop transport

02:00:39.090 --> 02:00:41.670
and you know the only time he ever talked about

02:00:41.670 --> 02:00:44.329
like kamikazes at okinawa he was not real he

02:00:44.329 --> 02:00:46.949
wasn't really fan of them i the best thing i'd

02:00:46.949 --> 02:00:49.130
say about my dad is i remember when i was young

02:00:49.130 --> 02:00:53.590
i bought the first like new car i bought was

02:00:53.590 --> 02:00:57.529
a subaru and i parked it in his driveway and

02:00:57.529 --> 02:01:00.710
my dad came out and said get that blankety blank

02:01:00.710 --> 02:01:04.130
out of my driveway. I sent that thing over there

02:01:04.130 --> 02:01:07.489
at 2 ,500. I sent metal over there at 2 ,500

02:01:07.489 --> 02:01:10.350
pounds at a time so they could turn around and

02:01:10.350 --> 02:01:13.010
make cars with it. Park that shit in the street.

02:01:14.529 --> 02:01:20.829
Okay, dad. Point taken. I'm not going to argue

02:01:20.829 --> 02:01:24.869
with you. So that's about that on that one. But

02:01:24.869 --> 02:01:27.420
yeah. Brilliant. I appreciate you going there.

02:01:27.460 --> 02:01:29.319
It was an interesting perspective because, I

02:01:29.319 --> 02:01:31.359
mean, again, when you have all these conversations,

02:01:31.840 --> 02:01:34.640
it debunks some of these myths. And were there

02:01:34.640 --> 02:01:36.720
some people that came home and, again, as we

02:01:36.720 --> 02:01:40.060
mentioned, probably had these great healing mechanisms

02:01:40.060 --> 02:01:42.340
that were kind of inbuilt and they did just fine?

02:01:42.460 --> 02:01:44.659
Yeah, but, I mean, we've got to also acknowledge

02:01:44.659 --> 02:01:47.880
the other side as well. Yeah, you know, I don't,

02:01:47.880 --> 02:01:51.739
you know, I don't, you know, let's say this.

02:01:52.740 --> 02:01:55.359
Feeling sorry for yourself was never really running

02:01:55.359 --> 02:01:58.800
rampant in my household. There was really no,

02:01:58.920 --> 02:02:01.579
you know, there was no time for it. My dad made

02:02:01.579 --> 02:02:03.819
sure there was no time for it. You know, there

02:02:03.819 --> 02:02:06.180
was no time. If you were going to dig ditches,

02:02:06.180 --> 02:02:08.239
be the best ditch digger. If you were going to,

02:02:08.260 --> 02:02:11.079
you know, whatever. It was just like, get up,

02:02:11.619 --> 02:02:13.859
pick yourself up, get moving. There's no time

02:02:13.859 --> 02:02:18.920
for this shit or stuff. So would some people

02:02:18.920 --> 02:02:23.220
say that that alone is a... you know a stressor

02:02:23.220 --> 02:02:26.039
point what i will say about the thing i think

02:02:26.039 --> 02:02:30.439
that i saw in my father more than he always said

02:02:30.439 --> 02:02:34.600
he always said that you have to believe in something

02:02:34.600 --> 02:02:40.279
bigger than yourself and uh i watched him fight

02:02:40.279 --> 02:02:45.739
fires sometimes or come home all burned up uh

02:02:45.739 --> 02:02:49.100
or go to the hospital then come home all burned

02:02:49.100 --> 02:02:52.899
up um But he had this, he just had this, this,

02:02:53.020 --> 02:02:58.739
he did have an idea that he kind of transferred

02:02:58.739 --> 02:03:02.979
to my brother and I that whatever this is, it's

02:03:02.979 --> 02:03:06.500
easy. Because the other stuff he did was hard.

02:03:09.779 --> 02:03:11.920
And there's nothing to this firefighting thing.

02:03:12.079 --> 02:03:15.479
It's easy. You know, the danger of it, not that,

02:03:15.479 --> 02:03:17.239
not that profession, but the day, you know, this

02:03:17.239 --> 02:03:21.529
is no, there's, this is nothing. So I think he

02:03:21.529 --> 02:03:23.750
probably brought that home with him, that if

02:03:23.750 --> 02:03:26.970
he survived that, if he survived, because my

02:03:26.970 --> 02:03:28.810
dad couldn't swim, so he's definitely afraid

02:03:28.810 --> 02:03:30.689
that he was going to, you know. And it's like,

02:03:30.770 --> 02:03:32.310
Dad, you were in the engine room. It wouldn't

02:03:32.310 --> 02:03:33.989
have mattered anyway. You would have been torpedoed

02:03:33.989 --> 02:03:37.829
and sank like a rock. But he, you know, he was

02:03:37.829 --> 02:03:39.909
always afraid of having that he would drown.

02:03:41.710 --> 02:03:43.850
But I think that his attitude was if he survived

02:03:43.850 --> 02:03:46.069
that, he could survive anything. And I think

02:03:46.069 --> 02:03:47.550
a lot of guys came home with that. You know,

02:03:47.569 --> 02:03:49.909
I think today, I think I saw when I worked, I

02:03:49.909 --> 02:03:52.270
saw firefighters that were, I had bosses that

02:03:52.270 --> 02:03:55.770
were Vietnam era guys and they were fearless,

02:03:55.930 --> 02:03:59.850
fearless because they were some of them, you

02:03:59.850 --> 02:04:01.529
know, one of them, Bobby Cousins was a tunnel

02:04:01.529 --> 02:04:06.369
rat. This was nothing to him, you know, and I

02:04:06.369 --> 02:04:08.810
followed those guys anywhere because they, they

02:04:08.810 --> 02:04:11.710
just gave a sense of confidence that was amazing.

02:04:12.130 --> 02:04:15.439
And there's nothing they wouldn't take on. And

02:04:15.439 --> 02:04:17.560
if they did, you knew it was really bad. If they

02:04:17.560 --> 02:04:18.819
were like, hey, kid, we're going to sit this

02:04:18.819 --> 02:04:23.699
one out. Yeah, it was bad. So anyway, what else

02:04:23.699 --> 02:04:25.640
you got for me? Amazing. Well, I'm just going

02:04:25.640 --> 02:04:28.460
to close up. So for people listening, if they

02:04:28.460 --> 02:04:29.979
want to reach out to you, where are the best

02:04:29.979 --> 02:04:31.640
places? And then where are the best places to

02:04:31.640 --> 02:04:35.899
find Conway Shield? Well, the Conway Shield can

02:04:35.899 --> 02:04:42.720
be found at conwayshield .com. Also, we certainly

02:04:42.720 --> 02:04:48.119
have our... podcast beyond the shield is on is

02:04:48.119 --> 02:04:52.699
on multiple platforms but on youtube uh we are

02:04:52.699 --> 02:04:55.239
in facebook and instagram and all the other things

02:04:55.239 --> 02:04:58.619
under conway shield um for me personally if you

02:04:58.619 --> 02:05:02.220
want to reach out to me my my personal email

02:05:02.220 --> 02:05:05.479
address and i will get this is p conway p as

02:05:05.479 --> 02:05:09.539
in paul conway at conwayshield .com uh i'm more

02:05:09.539 --> 02:05:13.079
than willing to you know to I am an open book.

02:05:13.180 --> 02:05:16.359
As I said when we started this, I'm willing to

02:05:16.359 --> 02:05:18.560
talk with anybody. I'm willing to have discussions

02:05:18.560 --> 02:05:23.500
with anybody. Because one thing, yesterday it

02:05:23.500 --> 02:05:26.359
was mentioned several times that Bill was a perpetual

02:05:26.359 --> 02:05:31.319
student. He never stopped learning. When I retired

02:05:31.319 --> 02:05:37.199
12 years ago, my biggest fear was what I was

02:05:37.199 --> 02:05:41.840
going to do. I think one of the things that,

02:05:41.859 --> 02:05:45.100
and we didn't touch on it, so I will briefly

02:05:45.100 --> 02:05:48.760
now. One of the things that I think we miss is

02:05:48.760 --> 02:05:52.640
when we leave this job, if it becomes who we

02:05:52.640 --> 02:05:56.840
are, not what we do, we don't know what we're

02:05:56.840 --> 02:05:59.520
going to do when we no longer have it. And I

02:05:59.520 --> 02:06:02.260
was concerned that what was this going to be?

02:06:02.340 --> 02:06:04.279
For 30 years of my life, this is what I was.

02:06:05.800 --> 02:06:08.479
And I had grown in maturity to realize it was

02:06:08.479 --> 02:06:11.880
what I did, not who I was. But it was still,

02:06:12.000 --> 02:06:17.399
man, what am I going to do? So I realized I dove

02:06:17.399 --> 02:06:21.119
into the learning. Always be the student. Learn.

02:06:21.260 --> 02:06:24.119
I read. I can't stop reading. You know, I love

02:06:24.119 --> 02:06:29.359
to read. I just, I love to read. So, and I want

02:06:29.359 --> 02:06:30.960
to learn and I want to, you know, I want to,

02:06:30.960 --> 02:06:33.560
when I saw, when I started listening to you and

02:06:33.560 --> 02:06:35.479
started seeing things like, I got to meet, I

02:06:35.479 --> 02:06:37.500
got to meet this dude. I got to find out who

02:06:37.500 --> 02:06:38.819
he is. I can find out what he's, you know, what's

02:06:38.819 --> 02:06:42.840
he getting at here. This is, this is like, for

02:06:42.840 --> 02:06:48.260
me, this is really impressive. So anyway, P.

02:06:48.399 --> 02:06:51.840
Conway at Conway Shield. And I'm willing to,

02:06:51.859 --> 02:06:56.220
I'm willing to chat with anybody, you know. I

02:06:56.220 --> 02:07:01.899
am not. I am not above having great discussions

02:07:01.899 --> 02:07:04.960
with people, even people. I know we live in a

02:07:04.960 --> 02:07:08.560
world right now that is very, you know, this

02:07:08.560 --> 02:07:15.380
way. I'm not into that. But, you know, I have

02:07:15.380 --> 02:07:17.720
kids, you know, I have four different children

02:07:17.720 --> 02:07:21.359
and they, some of them may not think the same

02:07:21.359 --> 02:07:24.140
way I do. But I always tell them, as long as

02:07:24.140 --> 02:07:25.840
you have a belief system that you're willing

02:07:25.840 --> 02:07:28.939
to stand behind and you have the whys. It's not

02:07:28.939 --> 02:07:31.739
just a talking head. You have the whys. I'm good.

02:07:32.399 --> 02:07:35.199
I'm good. Because I've learned I'm not the man

02:07:35.199 --> 02:07:37.739
I was at 20. I told you that. I'm not the man

02:07:37.739 --> 02:07:42.119
I was at 30. And I won't be this guy, Lord willing,

02:07:42.300 --> 02:07:46.100
20 years from now. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:07:46.220 --> 02:07:49.279
So that's how you can find us. Beautiful. Well,

02:07:49.359 --> 02:07:52.460
I want to thank you so much. I mean, you know,

02:07:52.460 --> 02:07:54.979
not only the legacy that you've had as far as

02:07:54.979 --> 02:07:56.760
wearing the uniform, being in the fire service,

02:07:56.859 --> 02:08:00.060
but... Just being this voice now, and I had an

02:08:00.060 --> 02:08:03.680
amazing trip to California a couple weeks ago,

02:08:03.739 --> 02:08:06.180
and there was three veterans. One was from LAFD,

02:08:06.319 --> 02:08:08.619
one was a Chicago firefighter, and one was Boston.

02:08:09.100 --> 02:08:12.199
And all of these men were talking about the mistakes

02:08:12.199 --> 02:08:14.039
they've made, whether it was wearing gear, whether

02:08:14.039 --> 02:08:16.079
it was talking about the mental health side.

02:08:16.840 --> 02:08:19.800
These are... absolutely the voices that we need

02:08:19.800 --> 02:08:21.939
to hear because then it debunks the, oh, the

02:08:21.939 --> 02:08:24.680
war years, you know, the kind of romanticizing

02:08:24.680 --> 02:08:28.039
that we hear these young guys spouting. So hearing

02:08:28.039 --> 02:08:30.119
you talk today and hearing your perspective,

02:08:30.140 --> 02:08:32.100
all these things and hearing you be vulnerable

02:08:32.100 --> 02:08:34.579
about your father and about your brother and

02:08:34.579 --> 02:08:37.079
these other areas that we've gone to, I think

02:08:37.079 --> 02:08:39.819
is so, so important. So I want to thank you so,

02:08:39.899 --> 02:08:41.899
so much for being so generous with your time

02:08:41.899 --> 02:08:44.199
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

02:08:44.560 --> 02:08:48.020
no james thank you very much uh i'm gonna let's

02:08:48.020 --> 02:08:52.460
leave with this that whole warriors thing it

02:08:52.460 --> 02:08:59.420
wasn't what it was it's just it's it's been turned

02:08:59.420 --> 02:09:01.880
into something and i'm not those guys went to

02:09:01.880 --> 02:09:04.380
a ton of work you know the guys i the guys in

02:09:04.380 --> 02:09:06.819
the 60s went to a ton of work in the 90s i was

02:09:06.819 --> 02:09:09.100
doing two to three structure fires a day so they

02:09:09.100 --> 02:09:11.020
now the kids look and they say well the 90s were

02:09:11.020 --> 02:09:13.720
the war years and i looked in the 60s were more

02:09:13.720 --> 02:09:15.989
years The reality is it wasn't what it was cracked

02:09:15.989 --> 02:09:18.510
up to be. Yeah, we went to a lot of fires, but

02:09:18.510 --> 02:09:20.369
we weren't training every day. We weren't drilling

02:09:20.369 --> 02:09:22.390
every day. We weren't doing a lot of that stuff.

02:09:22.710 --> 02:09:27.050
And I think sometimes it's just, it's, you know,

02:09:27.090 --> 02:09:31.989
oh, it was such a wonderful idea. No, riding

02:09:31.989 --> 02:09:35.649
on a tailboard sucked. It was cold. It was miserable.

02:09:35.850 --> 02:09:39.789
You smell diesel fuel as diesel exhaust. Horrible.

02:09:39.869 --> 02:09:43.289
Long boots, garbage. steam running down your

02:09:43.289 --> 02:09:47.670
legs burning your knees garbage garbage so you

02:09:47.670 --> 02:09:51.529
can talk all you want you didn't live it and

02:09:51.529 --> 02:09:53.470
i'm telling you it wasn't the fantasy you think

02:09:53.470 --> 02:09:56.869
it was it wasn't but that's what we do as humans

02:09:56.869 --> 02:09:59.630
you know we always look back and you know i think

02:09:59.630 --> 02:10:02.189
like my dad my dad talking about how amazing

02:10:02.189 --> 02:10:04.670
being on being on the two ships he was on because

02:10:04.670 --> 02:10:06.289
he was in world war ii and then he got called

02:10:06.289 --> 02:10:08.689
back to go to korea so he's not a destroyer in

02:10:08.689 --> 02:10:12.689
korea and and just the the the love affair he

02:10:12.689 --> 02:10:16.510
had with that ship i bet he didn't have it then

02:10:16.510 --> 02:10:21.470
i bet he wasn't too impressed then and it's the

02:10:21.470 --> 02:10:24.569
same thing we look back at it and it seemed you

02:10:24.569 --> 02:10:26.930
know my time in the fire academy oh glorious

02:10:26.930 --> 02:10:31.149
years that sucked when i was living it sucked

02:10:31.149 --> 02:10:35.930
so uh let's not let's let's do this for each

02:10:35.930 --> 02:10:38.930
other let's live in the moment and let's make

02:10:38.930 --> 02:10:43.390
this moment the best moment so thank you for

02:10:43.390 --> 02:10:48.270
having me on i really appreciate it i uh i i

02:10:48.270 --> 02:10:50.829
really appreciate it you're doing an amazing

02:10:50.829 --> 02:10:54.229
job and uh i i thank you for your friendship

02:10:54.229 --> 02:10:59.409
um i just thank you wonderful keep up the great

02:10:59.409 --> 02:10:59.630
work