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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you
think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome
to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,
my name is James Gearing, and this week it is
my absolute honor to welcome on the show 31 -year
veteran of the fire service, retiring as chief
of operations of Milwaukee Fire Department, and
the man behind Conway Shields, Paul Conway. Now,
in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics,
from his experience entering the fire service
in 1984, losing his brother, the family business
Conway Shields, the Firefighter Workweek, leadership,
mental health, and so much more. Now, before
we get to this incredible conversation, as I
say every week, please just take a moment. Go
to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
well over 1 ,000 episodes now. So all I ask in
return is that you help share these incredible
men and women's stories so I can get them to
every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. So that being said, I introduce
to you, Paul... Well, Paul, I want to start by
saying two things. Firstly, thank you for having
me as a guest on your show. Beyond the Shield,
and also for the generous birthday gift that
you sent after. And secondly, I want to welcome
you onto my show, Behind the Shield, today. Well,
thank you very much. I'm very blessed to be here
today. Not in the studio, as people can tell.
I'm on the road today. I had to go down to Florida
for a funeral, so this was the day that we could
put it all together. So great to be here. And
that was Bill Gustin's funeral? Yes, sir, it
was. So how was that, the funeral itself? The
funeral itself was beautiful. It was all of the
pomp and circumstance that you would expect.
I will tell you that MDFR, Miami -Dade, did an
amazing job of giving Bill all the respect he
deserved. It was, I don't know, it was in a basketball
arena, so it's hard to tell how many people were
there. But I would say, you know, several thousand.
And the pipes, the band, you know, the whole
thing. Everything was there. Miami -Dade doesn't,
you know, for those who don't know, my wife,
she was on Miami -Dade for years. i've been familiar
with them for a long time and uh they do not
everything they do is first class they don't
you know they're top shelf man they're top tier
so uh so they did everything right let's put
it that way Well, I thought what was interesting,
I mean, obviously, Bill is known for his legacy
when it comes to the training side. And we have
talked before, I was trying to get him on the
show. But at this point, it was kind of getting
towards the end. And I don't know if he was wanting
to have a deep dive on here. But what was really
powerful to me is when they announced his passing,
they didn't withhold the reason. And so many
departments, I understand sometimes it's the
families, but so many departments, if you really
want to start removing stigma from suicide or
even overdose, which I think is still even more
stigmatized, then just simply put it out. as
a normal thing like this is another tragic loss
of life in the fire service and whether it's
cancer or whether it's suicide we shouldn't kind
of feel ashamed or feel you know that oh we can't
we can't talk about that we can't be honest about
that because i think that was a very um important
part of of losing bill was was that you know
here we have this fire service hero this and
we hear that phrase all the time that's the last
person i would have thought um and you know at
that point he got to a point where he took his
own life it doesn't negate at all the incredible
fire service history they have but i think it
should serve i think we owe it to him to continue
this conversation it was kind of put front and
center again no i i couldn't agree more and and
sitting there yesterday Quite frankly, it was
a lot more moving than I thought it was going
to be. Again, for listeners that are unaware,
my brother was a firefighter with me in the city
of Milwaukee. And 30, oh, I guess 31 years ago
now, he took his own life on his way to work.
And that funeral yesterday brought back a lot
of those. memories um and it moved me more than
I thought it would not the funeral you know that's
always fire department funerals or fire department
funerals but the idea that that he chose that
same path and 30 years ago without a doubt that
wasn't mentioned it was just he died suddenly
And it was people like myself or my family that
said, well, yeah, he took his life. Because it
was, to me, it was important. And when I was
sitting there yesterday, before the funeral started,
and I started thinking about that. And I don't,
you know, I don't know. I talked to some people
that knew him well that were there. you know,
we kind of said, I don't know if you would have
got to Bill. You know, I don't know if you would
have got to him because he had his whole life
in the business with the way the business is
now. And, you know, it just, all I can think
of yesterday is what a shame, what a shame. But
I also know, I know that the mind, when you get
to that point, You know, your mind is, we think
of it as a rational human being and you're not
rational. You know, you're not. And so we can't
think, well, why would you do this or why would
you do that? You know, I've come to realize that,
that you can't think because that's not, they're
not thinking the way you and I do. But it was
definitely a moment yesterday where I just thought,
man, what a shame. What a shame. And I am glad.
I am very glad that. mdfr you know brought it
out right away and brought it to the forefront
they don't hide it you know their chief was very
uh strong with uh a right a bang approach you
know reach out call somebody you know check on
people all those things that we all do after
an incident like this but you know me personally
i think we don't do enough left to bang we don't
do enough in the beginning but uh yeah so it
was it it was it was good to see them bring it
out good to see them bring it to the forefront
absolutely well you mentioned about you know
them having a different frame of mind that's
something that really became apparent as I started
interviewing more and more people, whether it's
the psychology side, or I would argue more, you
know, more insightful with the men and women
that have been at that point. And I've had so
many like near suicides as far as guests on the
show. And then several that went through with
their attempt and they just survived, which,
you know, is an incredible, incredible thing
because they get to testify. Like Kevin Hines,
the moment he jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge,
everything snapped back to reality and he regretted
it instantly. But for all those other people
that leave the bridge, it's too late. And what's
become hugely apparent now is the perfect storm
of all these factors. And there is no one factor.
You hear people say, oh, well, they were going
through a divorce. That's bullshit. There's so
many. elements so many layers to this you know
everything from unaddressed childhood trauma
to you know sleep deprivation financial issues
relationship issues you know the side effects
of alcohol and psych meds and organizational
betrayal i mean all these things that come together
um and then loss of identity which you know would
probably be more pertinent in this conversation
and now you you're they literally report their
reality has shifted And that voice in their head
is literally convincing them that they are a
burden to the people that they love. And when
you're in a profession where you've already signed
a blank check as far as giving up your life to
try and rescue someone else, and now you truly
believe that you're the reason for your family's
pain, they find themselves there, which I would
argue at that moment in that distorted frame,
mind frame makes suicide courageous and selfless,
not cowardly and selfish. so the healthy brain
can't understand the brain in that moment but
i think like you said how we get to them is way
way left of bang and what should be on the poster
is not oh if you're struggling call me it should
be if you are feeling like a burden to the people
that you love call me that is a huge red flag
that i really don't hear anyone talking about
yeah it you know that it I'm at a loss for words
for a minute because you're right. It is, you
know, people, people look and I've already heard
some things on, you know, third, fourth hand
people. Well, Bill, you know, it was because
of this. It was because of that. And at first
off, I think, well, boy, you've got some stones
for somebody you've never met. but you heard
from the mailman who heard from the bus driver
who heard from the garbage man that this is what
happened and then you want to spread the rumor
because you want to feel like you have importance
and you have value and that couldn't be a bigger
line of bs than i could think of but but you're
right if if it was one thing or if it was firefighter
related or police officer related we wouldn't
have farmers doing it we wouldn't have mechanics
doing it we wouldn't have the problem is it's
it's societal and it's and it is an issue of
of it's not the one thing it's several different
things that pile on and you know you've made
a very good point there and it is something I
struggle with and I know I'll get a lot of crap
for this but it is something I struggle with
because if you're thinking of it along that line
it's the courageous thing for you to do today
It's the thing that's going to help your family
out. It's the thing, you know, they're going
to get the policy. They're going to get the line
of duty death money. They're going to get all
these things. Well, we add to that by this big
funeral. We add to that. And people I know are
going to hate me for it. But we add to that.
And we need to get... I don't want to say that
we don't do anything. It's not the case. But
we need to know that that's not the end goal
is not the big funeral. If I do this, I get the
big funeral. You know, when I came on the fire
department, there were people I worked with that
literally towards the end of their careers, they
did what they could do to be killed in a line
of duty. Because that's what they wanted to go
out with their boots on. And I used to think,
this is crazy. You're living like a madman because
you want that so bad. Well, if you don't ever
have that opportunity, this adds another layer
to that thing of, I want to be remembered. I
want to go out being remembered. And what I see,
and I won't talk about Bill and Bill's life,
but what I see in my own life. is with my with
my brother is if that's what he was looking for
he achieved it his name is carved on the wall
all of that's the case but he took 30 years away
from his kids and he took 30 years away from
me and uh you know i don't know maybe he wouldn't
live 30 years who the heck knows but the point
is is that that was taken That was the price
that was paid for that. And I don't think that
price is worth it. I just don't. I just don't
think it's worth it. I know it's not worth it.
Well, I've said this a lot. The fire service
is great at burying our men and women and terrible
at preventing the deaths. And I think it's interesting
that you point that out because, yes, in that
distorted view, when the mind is miswired at
that point. That's another added bonus. Well,
yeah, I, you know, I go out like a hero where
you take that same person, get them in time,
get them through these healing modalities. And
then they realize the hero in this story is that
parent is being there for that children. And
we'll get into obviously the work week and other
things that also tie into this. But this is the
problem is. We have to get to these people before
that perfect storm occurs because that psychosis,
and I had a psychologist correct me, say it's
not a psychosis. I'm sorry, but I think that's
the perfect word for someone who thinks the best
solution is to kill themselves and take their
own life. You are in a psychotic state by that
point. And so once they get to there, it's extremely
hard to pull them back. But as you said, left
the bang, when you start looking at all these
pieces that contribute. And you affect, you know,
the shifts and you add more rest and recovery
and you change things. So there's not so much
toxicity, whether it's at the firefighter level
or the chief or, you know, whatever it is, you
know, and then and then that strengthening relationships
and marital problems start to go down, you know,
and then and then you've got a fitness standard.
So now the healthy body, healthy mind comes in.
You can then forensically start picking apart
so many of these layers. But if all you do is
shrug your shoulders and throw an epic funeral
with last calls and, you know, folded flags.
You're not fixing the problem. I'm not saying
that's what Miami -Dade is. I'm just saying as
a profession, that's what we usually do. And
so, you know, if you just give this good, you
know, massive pomp and circumstance funeral,
it's kind of almost like you've absolved yourself
of any responsibility and then you just move
on rather than saying, why are our men and women
dying too soon? We're all going to die one day,
but why are arguably some of the most physically
and mentally resilient members of our community?
who stand on the diamond, an incredible shape,
an incredible mental shape, and we're losing
them at 55, 60, if not before. Yeah, no, and
yeah, I'd like to also be perfectly clear. What
Miami did was beautiful, and it was a wonderful
thing. And like I said, they did it first class.
There's no doubt about it. So I don't want to
discourage that or take that away from them.
What I'm trying to get at is that like you said
there are there are so many things there are
so many things that tie into this that that we're
not getting to prior we're not you know i sat
with my wife yesterday afterwards and we were
having dinner and we were talking about this
and she said you know i've never all the things
that i've seen or all the things you've seen
how come that doesn't affect us How come that's
not changed you? How come that's not changed?
And for her, she said, it really hasn't changed
me. And I said, well, time out. It did change
me. I was different. I was a different human
being. And I look and I say that one of the things
that I, you know, when we say I want to get back,
I want to get to them. The gentleman that I spoke
with, the retired fire chief and some others
of age, look at life differently. And I think
that we do that just by age. If we've made it
to this far, we see the world through a different
lens. And we see as you are, you know, that there
are things that don't, you know, they don't seem
as they are. Things don't seem the way that you
think they are. People have personal problems
and all these other things. And we, you know,
we do these things. We see all this stuff. But
we look at it differently. because we survived
it. And it's, it's the, I look at it and I say,
I don't know. And I told her, I says, I don't
know why that is with you. I don't know why,
but somehow psychologically you were built for
it. You know, you, you, and I said, maybe we
need to start out with a test. You know, we take
a psychology test coming into the job because
a lot of our jobs up in Wisconsin, there is nothing
like that. There is for law, but I don't think
there is for fire. But we start to figure these
things out ahead of time. And part of it, I think,
and I'm off track a minute, but part of it I
think was with her is she had people on MDFR
that were telling her these were the things you
were going to see. These were the things you
were going to be exposed to. It was almost like
a precursor. Hey, these things are going to happen.
And when they happen, we're going to talk about
them. But again. She had a strong mind that it
was never anything in her life on the job, what
she's seen, what she's had to do that's bothered
her. It was, as you said earlier, all of the
other things in her life that were the things
that were beating her up. You know, yeah. Like
I said, I apologize. I got off track for a minute.
No, no. We're totally on track. It's interesting
because this was really brought to my attention
by a guy, Jake Clark, who founded Save a Warrior.
And he really made me realize the prevalence
of childhood trauma in most of us in uniform
and also incarcerated people too. We have an
ACEs score, so Adverse Childhood Experience score.
I think it's... one or zero to 10. And most of
us are around six supposedly on average. And
that doesn't have to be, you know, therefore
it's going to be a fracture foundation. Then
you've got to factor in, well, as you were growing
up, were there things that offset that? And it's
interesting, kind of like your wife. I never
had the darkest, lowest of lows. And I had some
pretty shitty times. I went through a divorce.
I was a single dad going through medic school
and, you know, barely sleeping. And so I had
some lows. There's no question. But nothing like
the, you know, turning to the bottle the moment
you get off shift. Nothing like the sitting with
a pistol on your lap that I've had, you know,
so many people talking about. And again, the
question to me was why? Why not? I know hands
on my heart that I'm not an exceptional human,
that I'm no better than any of these men or women
that got to that place. But when I looked back
at my childhood, even though there were multiple
traumas, like I was four years old and almost
died in a house fire, like truly almost died,
came out covered in soot. You know, there's a
wall that fell and crushed every car next to
us in a parking lot down to, I mean, like the,
you know, below the seat. So that was two near
-death experiences as a child. My parents had
a horrific divorce. But I was one of five kids.
I grew up on a farm. My dad was a veterinary
surgeon, so he was healing animals. We had people
come through the door from literally extended
royalty through the, you know, gypsies and travelers.
So, you know, human beings, good, bad, you know,
that's what showed me that, you know, it doesn't
matter how much money you've got. It doesn't
matter what your house is. You know, there are
good people and there are not so good people.
So all these things that we know now are very
healing time in nature, you know, community.
We ate around a big table every day, just like
a firehouse. And then even the gore that I was
subjected to helping my dad operate on animals.
There were these. healing modalities woven into
my childhood. I just won the roulette. That's
all it was. Like I said, I didn't do anything
better than anyone else. But that allowed me
to have those things kind of addressed by the
time I put the uniform on. The people, more often
than not, the struggle, the things that they
endured as children, a lot of times they were
buried down. And, you know, the guests on here,
if anything, from being just simply the middle
child of some pretty uncaring parents all the
way through to sexual assault and homelessness
and all kinds of things. So to me, even with
the psychological test, I think the psychological
tests that we do, because I know that it was
never meant to be a standalone test to determine
if you'd be a good first responder. I think they're
ridiculous. And I think you're much better off
doing a full background check and then giving
people counseling, almost like you would give
them PT as a new hire. Make it normal. And you
go through, you know, six counseling sessions
on probation and you just have these conversations
and they tell you, hey, just so you know, the
fact that you're here, there's a high chance
that there's some things that you have when you
were younger. And if we work through them. That
will end up being a strength as you progress
through your profession. And then as you start
having some of these worse calls or relationship
issues, you keep touching base with these counselors.
I think that is a conversation that we need to
have because there's no real mystery why some
people do well and some people don't. It's, you
know, have you got a fractured foundation because
of what happened to you when you were younger
being unaddressed or. Have you been fortunate
enough to have it addressed and you've actually
got a pretty solid foundation which allows you
to carry the things that we endure through the
career? You know, that's an excellent idea. Because
one of the things that we were talking about
yesterday, which came through strong to us, was,
like I said earlier, there's things that I look
at from this age. If you would have told me to
come on a job that I had to sit with a counselor,
I would have looked at you like, what is wrong
with you? You lost your damn mind? I'm fine.
There's nothing wrong with me. Shut the hell
up. When do I get to go ride a rig? I would have
thought that was foolish. I looked yesterday,
and we weren't a part of it, but Pam noticed
it online. there was a group of individuals that
were obviously at the funeral that did what all
good firemen do. We left the funeral and we went
to the bar and then we drank and we drank. And
by the way, we drank some more. I didn't, but
you know what? I'm getting that. And I looked
at that because I've seen it. I remember the
20th anniversary of September 11th. I was in
New York City and I watched literally as the
night progressed. This thing that was supposed
to be a somber ceremony of losing the lives of
343 firemen become a drunk fest. That firefighters
were brawling in the street. So much so that
the next morning when the families of some of
the fallen wanted to do a walk through the area,
they couldn't because there was so much garbage,
vomit, and everything else on the path. And I
thought, how? in this service of drinking, how
disrespectful we were to those who lost loved
ones. What I'm trying to get at is age teaches
you to look at those things differently. And
it's how we get our next, you know, I look, and
when I said earlier about Bill, I don't know
if we would have gotten the bill. What I meant
by that was The fire service will not change
this overnight. Neither will law enforcement,
neither will anybody else. It may take an entire
career, may take an entire generation. But like
you said, if we start at the beginning and we
give them the counseling, we try and teach, try
and tell them they are tactical athletes and
we're going to teach, we're going to give them
everything they need accordingly. And we'll get
into this, like you said, sleep and everything
else. But we have to be able. to somehow convince
them because i know when i was in my 20s you
couldn't tell me i was a you know tough i could
take anything i even had the big mustache all
out of the jazz uh you couldn't tell me any of
that i would have thought it was all a bunch
of garbage and all a bunch of baloney but if
now and this is what i look at now and i think
one of the things that i you know cities may
not like me for this But I would tell every single
young firefighter, you have one goal, to get
out the other end as healthy as you possibly
can, both mentally and physically, and have a
longer time on pension than you had on the job.
And that's why we're doing all of this now, because
I don't want you broken. I want you in tip -top
shape. When you walk out the door, I still want
you to be healthy, and I want you to be mentally...
still you know tip -top mentally so that you
can live this wonderful life of 20 -30 years
you know on a city pension and and we have to
figure out we just have to figure out how to
convince and maybe it's easier than I think because
you know what these kids nowadays you know there's
people that talk about oh they're not this or
they're not that or they're not tough enough
or they don't you know what that's all a bunch
of garbage it's all garbage and and I just think
that they they They look at life differently
than us. I think we've realized that they don't,
you know, if you told me I'd work 80 hours a
week as a fireman, I didn't care. I wanted to
be a firefighter. That's it. End of story. If
that's the schedule, that's what I'll work. Oh,
it's going to kick the crap out of me. I won't
see my family. Who cares? Who cares? I'm a firefighter.
They don't think that way. Because if they did,
we wouldn't have. Or we wouldn't have the crisis
with people trying to come on our job anymore.
We just don't have the applicants. So, I mean,
yeah, let's find out a way. Let's find a way.
Let's find a way to start setting this up when
they come in the door in their first six months,
their first year. And continuing on throughout
their career. So that it becomes the norm. It
becomes the norm. just like for me it was the
norm i came in the firehouse i got soaking wet
i got covered in flour i had world war ii guys
laughing at me you know but constantly playing
practical jokes i had a year of of you know being
um subservient to everyone else in the firehouse
before i actually got to belong to the company
well why did we wait a whole year why didn't
we do any of that that's foolish now i look back
and say that's just that that's asinine If we
want cohesiveness, we want a culture in the firehouse,
we want people to love the job, we want all these
things to happen, why don't we start on day one?
Why don't we start that on day one? And why don't
we get them coming through the door, as you put
it, with mental coaching, performance coaching,
physical fitness? the counseling that you know
so they can see because you know you bring up
a great point as we started this we come in here
to serve in an altruistic way that we're going
to make the world better well why are we that
way and i think you're right i think a lot of
it well not i don't think i know because i've
you know many of the excellent firefighters i
had had horrible childhoods. You know, there
was something broken in them. They came there
because they were broken and they wanted to be
part of something bigger than themselves and
make the world better. And that's what they did.
You know, so I'm on board. I'm on board. I'm
all about that. Let's get that done. Well, I
think what is encouraging is, and you already
said this. This young generation now, I've heard
that, oh, they don't want to work. And like you
said, they're not tough. And all they do is play
on devices. And you're looking at the wrong section.
And we have that section too. I mean, look at
the dudes that hang around in Lazy Boys, eat
chicken wings and watch football and criticize
athletes from the comfort of their chair that's
straining under their 300 pounds. That's our
generation too. We know that guy. Firstly, the
strength and conditioning world have told me
that these young applicants are some of the fittest,
strongest people they've ever had because you
and I didn't have the luxury of mud runs and
CrossFit and all these things now that are forging
true tactical athletes. It's incredible. We relied
on bodybuilding at best and wonder why we kept
breaking. But then from the mental health point
of view, this Gen Z generation... They've been
raised, hopefully by the good parents, to be
in touch with their emotions and to value relationships
and time with siblings and parents. So they would
be, I think, more open to this conversation.
But the other layer, and this is an absolutely
important part of this too, is the same counseling
is also... sports performance sports teams have
psychologists and you want that empty mind you're
that that calm mind to get in that flow state
on a primary search on an extrication on a rope
rescue you know so you're not fumble fucking
on a belay knot or you know getting lost on a
right hand search so when you put it to them
that way like well we want you to have longevity
we want to make sure that on the mental health
point of view that we're allowing you to offload
things let me tell you about the majority of
us we have these things you don't have to tell
me but i'm pretty sure a lot of you in the room
have probably got things that you've had in your
past too so what a beautiful opportunity for
you guys to be able to work on that but the upside
is You also then get to forge your mind to be
a high performing firefighter, paramedic, whatever
role you're playing. And then you compare back
to our generation of all the chess beaters that
talk about being in, you know, into the job who
haven't raised a finger to try and improve the
work week in their department. But their firefighters
are working 56, 80 hour weeks. You got to be
into the job. Really? You got to be into the
job. You don't even understand the word performance.
If you're beating your chest while you're holding
a halogen and swinging it around, but your firefighters
are working four sleepless nights a week, you
have no concept of what performance is. So you
can actually reel that in and set this young
generation up for true success. Because now you
create a work week in an environment that is
going to forge the highest performing firefighters
that we've ever had in all the generations. Yeah,
no, 100%. You know, there's a group I work with,
Leadership Under Fire. We do a lot of mental
resilience and, you know, sport psychology in
what we do. And it's funny because... Sometimes
there's those in the unit or in the group that
are very strong on, look, when we say mental
resiliency, we're not talking about the kind
of mental resiliency you're thinking of. Or my
sister being a suicide prevention coach and things
like that. But you just brought up a good point.
It really is all tied into itself. It's all interwoven.
The mental resiliency that I can develop in the
fire service to have a flow state. to be in a
in a position of um of challenge stress not fight
or flight flight stress is because my brain is
clear yeah i don't have these things about i
got just got an argument with my wife i just
had this i had all these other things going on
i'm focused and ready to go um so that i you
know it's the first time anybody's ever put the
two together for me and that that to me makes
perfectly you know fantastic sense you know one
of the things that we mentioned or that you brought
up which is a key point is that you know when
i say that we have to start back here we have
to move our way through this and get people you
know have a generation to change it um obviously
the biggest thing there is buy -in it's it's
buy -in from those troops and you're right that
recliner chest pounding reclining guy they can't
we have to push them eventually out the door
they either need to change and become part of
it because you're going to have to have you know
if i'm going to tell people if i'm the assistant
fire chief and i am or the fire chief and i'm
going to the city asking for all kinds of money
for a fourth platoon so i can get people rest
for for uh mental health coaches mental performance
coaches for tactical athlete you know coaches
for all these other things uh for dietitians
for pt people if i'm going to do all of that
i can't have the local tell me that they're going
to fight it tooth and nail i can't have that
it's never going to work and the only reason
that in my opinion is that they fight it is because
we still have those recliner riders we still
have those guys and they we shouldn't i mean
i'm not saying they shouldn't be there what i
mean is that we should care about them enough
we should truly be the union strength you know
strength through many and tell them that we let's
go back to what i said earlier we want them to
have the longest pension possible and you're
not going to do it when you're 350 pounds so
you know let's not even talk about your job ability
Let's just talk about you and your personal life
retiring and going off into the riding into the
sunset, enjoying your life, not being, you know,
on a thousand pills and having a bad health.
I mean, having a bad, you know, bad health. So
I just. You know. We need to get the buy in and
the union has to be on board with this. And you're
right. You're right. It's cowardice. You know,
I again, I look at it now. And I say, and we've
had this conversation, why in the heck was I
working 16 hours more a week just because? Why?
You know, we brought it up earlier, I know, in
the conversation when you were on our podcast
about why do we start at 7 o 'clock or why do
we start at 8 o 'clock? I was listening to a
firefighter the other day. Their tours change
at 0700. And they're required to be up by 530
in the morning to change at 0700. Insanity. He
says, we don't ever, we're literally, we run
by the time we finally get, you know, we might
get in at four o 'clock. We get a half hour and
they're banging on the door. Get up. You have
to be up. You have to be up. It's shift change.
And I asked him, I said, well, why? Well, because
we have to. Okay. I said, how about if you change
at noon? Why don't you change at noon? I don't
know. Because we changed at seven. I said, but
why? I don't know. And I said, well, would you
like to change at noon? He said, oh, that'd be
awesome. We could sleep in if we were working
and I wouldn't have to get up at 5 .30 when I'm
off. I could actually have some sleep time. Oh,
what a concept. But the fact is, is that he never
thought about it. Because we change at seven.
That's it. It's crazy. It's crazy. It is. When
someone told me about the start time difference,
that was only three years ago, probably. Someone
brought it up and I just literally probably actually
facepalmed. And that makes so much sense. And
as I think we spoke on your podcast. If you're
doing a 24 hour shift, it's a dial. You can spin
that dial wherever you want. But what blows me
away is the conversation. The only conversation
I've heard is like, oh, we could do 7 p .m. Like,
why still the number? Why are you hanging on
to that number now at 7 p .m.? Why 11 or 12?
Just like you said, ongoing shift can sleep in
after getting murdered all night and then get
up, you know, wash the rig for the next crew.
have coffee, then they come in. The oncoming
crew wakes up. And as I highlighted in our conversation,
24, 48, you only see your family. Well, I certainly
did one out of every three mornings because the
first morning I'm up at five and out the door,
they're all asleep. Second morning, they've all
gone to school and work. Third morning, I actually
wake up with them. So now you add a second morning
where you wake up, have breakfast with your family,
take the kids to school or preschool. then go
to the station miss rush hour both ways it makes
perfect sense and again well because we've always
done it that way and i heard a guest he was a
spanish businessman like argentinian i think
he was and he's talking about his father had
the rule of i think it was three whys just like
you said why do we do this oh because we've always
done it but why most arguments will fall at the
second why because you realize you can't justify
it if he said if you make it to the third why
Like, why do you need water? Well, it hydrates
me. Why? Because my cells need it. Okay, you
really need water. You really need to breathe.
But a lot of these other things, if it can't
pass the three whys or even two whys, then there's
a beautiful opportunity for change. No, I mean,
James, I honestly, your listeners know you're
an amazing podcast. And you're an amazing individual.
And I have not, for those listening, probably
a week ago, we did a podcast. He was on our show.
I have not stopped talking about you. And I'm
not telling you this because you're like, oh,
put you on a pedestal. But the reality is this.
If I was still working, if I was still assistant
chief, And I heard some of the things you mentioned,
because we've been trying to get a fourth platoon.
We were trying to get a fourth platoon when I
was there. They're trying to get it now. They're
trying to convince the city that it's worth it,
that it saves money. It saves the overtime, all
those other things. But literally, the things
that you bring to the forefront, I just, I listened
to, and I've listened to several of your podcasts,
and I think. why didn't i think of that how come
it takes james gearing to think of that well
it's not me let me just jump in it it is not
me it's a thousand guests so all of that wisdom
is not james gearing i'm just the conduit saying
hey this person over here has a really good idea
about sleep back pain whatever and all of us
don't sleep and we've all got back pain maybe
we should listen to that person so nothing that
i talk about is is my own thought i wish i was
intelligent well then you're the conduit but
either way you're bringing it to the forefront
and and i just and i look at the for example
the hour of shift change and i just think the
same thing is that there is no reason there is
no why that can be answered you know it's it's
The fire service is, as we all know, it's, you
know, Milwaukee, it's 150 years of tradition,
not impeded by progress. Because we just do things
this way. You know, I think of the alarms, the
alerting systems, and how they've changed over
the years. You know, we literally, when I started,
it was the klaxon and the lights coming on. So
you went from asleep to bang, get up. Well, obviously
that didn't work well for our hearts. That wasn't
good for us. And we've slowly, you know, maturely
changed it. So maybe, not maybe, it's time to
start making change. It's time to let's, you
know, if we have this crisis, we have this crisis
of people not coming, applying for the job as
they used to. We have a horrible retention problem.
People are leaving, going to other jobs. They're
coming into the fire service. We're spending,
you know, in the city of Milwaukee, I think it
cost them $80 ,000 to make them paramedics. We
spend probably another $60 ,000 to get them through
our fire academy. So we have money invested in
these individuals and they're leaving us. We
had a gentleman from a community down the street,
not Milwaukee, but one of the suburbs. He was
on the job. He came on and he had just basically
completed his year. So the fire chief is quitting,
and the fire chief said, why are you going to
another fire department? He says, no, I think
I'm going to go drive school bus. He said, say
that again? You're giving up a pension? You're
giving up all this stuff? He goes, yeah, it's
just not the schedule. I don't know. It's just
not gelling for me. And nobody would have done
that when I was working. So there's something
going on. There's a different group of individuals.
Let's take advantage of them. Not take advantage
of them. Let's take advantage of who they are.
Let's learn what they need and what they want.
And let's make them the best firefighters we
possibly can. Why not? What does it hurt? What
is it? What? What? Tradition? Tradition? Really?
What tradition? So what tradition is more valuable
than our employees? What's tradition is more
valuable than our brothers and sisters, you know,
because you summed it up. If the union is not
fighting for a, for a four platoon system for
a 24 72, they're not, that's not courageous.
Well, I'd say the same with the fitness standards
go and circling back to what you said earlier,
when you have a standard that, is extremely easy
to hold people do if they've gone through a proper
fire academy a decent fire academy that is an
easy easy standard let's say for example the
c -pat or fire sled has i think it's the f -pat
they call theirs but you know you're moving hose
you're carrying a ladder you're dragging a dummy
the things that you have to be able to do as
a firefighter which would transition into extrication
and other things and you hold them as standard
at the front door you are forging physical performance
And you are forging longevity, just like you
said, these heart diseases, these strokes, these
byproducts of obesity that we see kill so many
of our men and women. And if it's not at least
in the uniform, then it's shortly after because
we don't count retirees in any way, shape or
form as far as statistics. People ask me, how
many firefighters do we lose? No one knows. No
one has a clue because there is no VA for first
responders. But if you are opposing an initiative.
that, and I say this all the time, in Florida,
your fire certification is literally labeled
minimum standards. This is the shittest you should
ever be your entire fucking career. And then
you're held to an arguably pretty piss easy standard,
which is a 10 minute, 20 second CPAP, for example.
That's all you're asking. And there's an opposition
for that. Oh, you're trying to take jobs. Tell
that to Delta. Tell that to the Navy SEALs. Tell
that to the ocean lifeguards in Hawaii. Oh, you're
trying to take my job because you're making me
swim. Like, really? You know, at some point you've
got to take a step back. And it's the same with
the work week. It's the same with the access
to the mental health. At what point are you going
to acknowledge that some areas are completely
broken and you've just simply been doing it wrong?
And that is reflected on the excitement of young.
potential firefighters you know or lack of excitement
coming into our profession and it is the most
beautiful honorable job this is why you still
talk about it after you know transitioning out
it's what i do because we love this profession
but the way that we've built the work week and
the lack of standards around it has created this
and probably that gentleman that decided to drive
a school bus If he'd been in a very, very competitive
testing process like it was 10, 15, 20 years
ago, he probably wouldn't have made it because
at some point you will realize, ah, this isn't
really worth it. But you're getting all those
people now. No disrespect to him, but we're getting
people whose heart isn't in it because we're
lowering standards and we're scooping up. Like
locally here, Marion County is now trying to
get 18 year old high school students. We know
neurologically that it's not even safe to get
an 18 year old. to start working in a busy downtown
station, 24 hours getting murdered on a rescue.
So this is, you know, this all ties in together
where if you want those excited, you know, hard
charges, then you have to fix the things that
are broken. So we attract the excited, hard charges
because they're not stupid. They know what performance
looks like. And I hate to tell you, you know,
American Fire Service, but a lot of these departments
from the outside looking in, you know, some of
these men and women that get off rigs, they are
not screaming performance at all. And that discourages
these young people from joining them. No, you
know, there's so much to unpack in what you just
said. Starting with, I do look at the European
Fire Service, for example, and I know that we
do things different. It's a different world.
I get all that. But they treat it. at least for
those i know whether it be i i have some interest
some understanding of germany and of of uh belgium
and it's it's they treat it like the military
or maybe they are a branch of the military i
don't know but but they're they have to be in
shape they have to you know they they they're
they're all about being squared away and i agree
with you i have a you know i always had a problem
when people would talk about um we have to do
this to we have to lower the standard to lower
that standard to get more minorities we have
to do this for that and i'd say that you know
what that's a bunch of crap that's all crap because
i rolled backwards with men and women that were
all different colors and all different beliefs
and they all went through the same experience
i did they all went through the same fire academy
and they were all as good actually they were
all better than me but they were we were all
the same So we don't have to lower standards.
And I think that what you said is vitally important,
and I think we're missing it. And that is that
if we make it something that people want to be
part of, a challenge, we start there and we say,
look, this isn't for everybody. And it's okay.
It took me years to realize just because you
weren't a good firefighter doesn't mean that
you shouldn't still be able to. You know, I used
to call them oxygen thieves because if you weren't
a good fireman, you were an oxygen thief. And
the fact is, that's not true. I'm an idiot. You
know, you can be a wonderful human being and
just really not find firefighting to be your
game. And it took me years to see that. But it
is back to life, folks. you can actually be a
good human being and not be a good firefighter
but but beyond that if you're right i didn't
you know these are good things i think about
is that when you bring them up if if i go to
a firehouse and i see a bunch of guys that i
think firefighters are i'll give you an example
i said this to you once before i think that i
took a friend of mine to a to fdic he was a physical
fitness coach He wanted to, this is literally
20 years ago, he wanted to get an idea of what
firefighters do so he could work with clients
that were firefighters. Two things he came up
with. First thing he came up with, he said, the
whole New York Fire Department must be here because
everybody's wearing a shirt that says FDNY. And
I said, yeah, just because they have a shirt
on doesn't mean that they work for New York.
And he was like, well, why would you wear a shirt
if you don't work for the fire department? Long
story. The other thing he said was, I thought
you guys were in shape. I've never seen somebody
out of shape, overweight, fat guys in my life.
I really thought the fire service was different.
I really did. And to me, somebody that considers
it a true profession, a true craft, and I'm a
believer in. You give up the right to be a fat
ass. You give up that right. Because your life
depends on me being able to do my job. And vice
versa. So you give up that right. And we unfortunately,
we don't hold anybody to a standard. Like you
said, our job was notorious for guys come out
of the training academy. I was 165 coming out
of the academy. And I maintained that weight.
Most of my career, at least half of it, probably
I put on a lot of muscle. Not that I was Schwarzenegger,
but I was very thin when I was in the academy.
And when I got to the engine house I got to,
it was a bunch of guys in their 30s and 40s who
were really into fitness. And they were like,
kid, you ain't ever going to do this job if we
don't put some weight on you. So they brought
me up to like 190. i'd like to say it was all
lean muscle but probably not but the the uh the
point is is that there were other people and
more often than not guys came in the door of
the firehouse at 165 like me and by the time
they had their year on it was like when they
call it the college 20 or whatever freshman they
were they were they were 210 pounds I mean, they'd
gained like 20, 30 pounds. But nobody told them,
hey, that's unacceptable. You know, they looked
at the guy, I'm going to pick on chauffeurs because
we always do. They looked at the chauffeur sitting
with ice cream on his belly watching the TV in
a recliner and said, well, I can grow up and
work on being that. I mean, we don't hold the
standard. The problem is, at least my experience.
is the union doesn't allow us to. They fight
it because they say we're trying to take their
jobs. And I always told them, look, I'm not trying
to take anybody's job. I'm willing to set a scale.
When you're 22, I expect you to run sub eight
minute miles. When you're 32, I'd expect you
to run a 10 minute mile and so on and so forth.
So I understand you're going to age. Things are
going to be different. But the military has been
doing it for years. You know, it's. It reminds
me of, I saw something the other day that said,
chiefs and officers shouldn't ever be, should
always come up through all the ranks, or they're
going to be lousy. They won't be good chiefs
and officers. And I started to think about that
for a minute, and I thought, well, I wonder how
the military does it. Because I don't know a
single officer, unless you're a Mustang, but
very rarely are officers enlisted. They're officers
from day one. So somehow it works there. And
I think that this goes back to the same thing
of, well, if it works in the military that they
have a sliding scale of physical fitness, why
can't it work in the fire service? And why can't
the unions get on board and get behind it? Because
if we are truly caring about our brothers and
sisters, and we... It's not just some hyperbole
that we say, but we truly care about them. We
would make sure they're in good physical shape.
They're mentally squared away. They're not becoming
alcoholics. All of these other things, their
marriages are, we're doing our best to keep giving
them opportunities to find counseling for their
marriages. So on and so forth. I mean, it's,
or are we just putting up a side that we care
about our brothers and sisters? Next. You know,
it goes back to the same thing. tomorrow and
i remember this in the uh in the uh worcester
six because i went to that too and there was
a fire chief there that might have been theirs
somebody spoke and they said tomorrow this Today
that you're all here for this funeral. And tomorrow,
you're going to go back to your day. And you're
going to go back to the life you live. And you
may speak of how beautiful is the wrong term,
but what the pomp and circumstance of this funeral
was, six members lost line of duty. But. Those
families have to continue on without a husband,
a father, a brother. And politicians who stood
up here and gave us their word that we're not
going to allow things like this to ever happen
again will go back to their offices and will
continue their business. And it will be another
day for them. And that'll be that. And I'm generalizing.
I'm not putting everybody in that category. It
really moved me. It reminded me that, no, they're
right. We can't have things like yesterday and
then just go, well, hopefully we won't have this
happen for a while yet. We just can't. And I
can tell you, I mean, I look at it and I say
that I am going to do something. I haven't figured
out what yet, but we're going to do something.
We're going to push forward. on changing that
culture, changing the culture in our service,
changing the culture in the job we love. Because
these kids deserve it. They deserve it. We have
to do it. We can't just, we can't keep doing
the same thing and expecting things to change,
period. And that's where I, you know, I'll just
end with this. That's where I... You, I think,
are doing such a marvelous job because you're
bringing all these people in. And you're bringing
people in with different ideas, different thoughts,
people that have been to the wall, people that
have stepped off the bridge and realized, oh,
as soon as I left, reality struck in. You know,
reality hit. Uh -oh. That's huge. That's huge.
Anyway, sorry. No, no, it was brilliant. I think
this is just it. Because I decided to really
make a vast spectrum when it came to the guests,
what I found myself doing was talking to, again,
lots of people in the military, but including
their strength and conditioning coaches, their
mental health coaches, you know, the sleep experts,
you know, within the army, the navy, I mean,
all the branches. And so then you start seeing,
well, wait a second, you know, now and again,
not to say that the army or the military was
super progressive, like the Navy, John Cordell
was on the show. It was that horrendous wreck
where, you know, the ships collided and they
lost, you know, a bunch of sailors that they
actually started going, oh, maybe we need to
look at, you know, the way that we're doing shift
work in the Navy. And you look at the actual
backstory of everything from. the Exxon Valdez
to Fukushima, I think, the nuclear disaster there.
I mean, all these massive incidents, more often
than not, sleep deprivation was a massive contributing
element. And even with the weight conversation,
I'm always very, very fair. The way that we break
our first responders promotes weight gain. It
promotes diabetes. It promotes testosterone depletion.
It promotes all of these things. So the fit firefighters
that we see, that's despite the work environment,
unless they're in the Northeast or somewhere
that's actually working and a 42 -hour work week
and it's fully staffed. But the rest of them,
we're destroying them and we're making it even
harder for them to be fit. So when you have these
conversations and setting standards as far as
fitness. A, you're doing it because you're trying
to save lives. So anyone who's opposing that,
shame on you. Secondly, no one. No one is saying,
okay, you've got to pass this tomorrow or you're
fired. Not a single person is saying. They're
saying, okay, we're going to have a standard.
There's going to be a year -long on -ramp or
two years to where you have to be. But here's
the caveat. You cannot be on a rig right now.
You're 300 pounds. If we need you, like next
to my station in Reedy Creek, which was Disney,
was a 30 -story high -rise hotel. A high -rise
strip is 100 pounds. I was 168 my whole career.
So almost half my body weight, actually more
than half my body weight, excuse me, strapped
to my skinny -ass frame, climbing 30 floors before
you even go to work. Then you have to force doors
and search and pull people out and do the things
that we do. As you said, this is not carpentry.
This is not making cups of coffee in Starbucks.
This is life -saving interventions. And if your
fitness isn't to the point where you can facilitate
a rescue, then you should be in some sort of
training department or whatever it is until you
get back. But again, there's this cowardice of
like, oh, they're trying to take a job. No, I
always tell people, how would you feel if that
person that you're protecting Was the one responding
to your family that were trapped and your family
died because they tapped out, that responder?
You know, I know one of the community's bias,
not in Milwaukee, but one of the community's
bias had this scenario going with one of their
officers. And they literally gave him, they took
him off the line, and I think they gave him two
years of... you know all right we're going to
give you everything you need we want you to come
back we don't want to lose you but we can't have
you the way you are and you know after two years
he ended up leaving but but it literally that's
what they did and i i applauded the city because
i thought this is fantastic this is doing what
they should be doing they're taking care the
union did the union agreed they were all part
of it and they gave this gentleman every opportunity
he could to drop the weight and to hold on to
his job and it made it you know he eventually
decided it wasn't worth it to him but but they
gave him every opportunity and i i can say that
uh just prior to me coming on the fire department
we had a uh we had a run that two firefighters
were became unconscious in a basement and quite
frankly all the king's horses and all the king's
men couldn't carry them up the steps again And
they lost their lives. I'm guessing. And I'll
say this from a guy who's had a heart valve replacement.
When those when you're faced with that type of
thought. When clarity comes to you. I'm maybe
I'm wrong. I'm going to bet. That at that moment,
you're not thinking if I can only get one more
cheeseburger, if I can only get one more Sunday,
if I can only stuff my face one more time, you're
thinking, you know what? My body didn't rise
to the occasion because I didn't take care of
myself. I can tell you I did. And I made sure
it never happened. You know, I was like, that's
it. You know, and maybe and I don't want it to
take that for anybody. It should be. You should
do it on your own. For me, this is a little thick.
And it took me a while. It took me that incident
to say that I got a family. I got kids. I got
grandkids. I'm doing all these other things,
drinking and partying and living this wonderful
lifestyle, beating the daylights out of my body.
Yeah, that doesn't make sense anymore. That cold
beer, that whatever, it's just not really worth
it. I might have been known to have a cigar once
in a while. That cigar just isn't worth it anymore.
You know, but all of those things are things
we certainly, you know, we certainly need to
look at. But I think one of the things you touched
on, which is vital to all of it, is sleep. You
know, I look, case in point, our flight was two
hours delayed. We didn't get in. We didn't get
into the hotel till. I don't know, midnight,
one o 'clock in the morning. Now this guy goes
to bed nine o 'clock every day. Every day, nine
o 'clock, I'm heading to bed. I read and I go
to sleep. Probably lights out at 9 .30. So now
I'm an hour ahead of time. So it's really two
my time. I'm exhausted. Well, clock wakes me
up like normal because I don't wake up to an
alarm. Got up at my usual time, 6 .30, seven
o 'clock. We had to get up. take off get ready
for the funeral took off last night um my wife
and i had had uh we stayed up past nine probably
11 midnight uh because of just you know talking
and discussing a lot of things and uh i'm done
i mean i'm not kidding i'm done you know when
i was waiting for this i'm like okay uh you know
let's get it rolling let's get it rolling because
that's how much sleep when i finally realize
it and i see how valuable it is that's how much
sleep makes a difference it really does because
i'll go home now and i'll catch a couple nights
where i'll sleep a little later or do whatever
and i'll see that i'll see that recovery in my
system My workouts will become better again.
My eating habits will be better again. Everything
all ties into this. Sleep. I think people don't
realize how, because my dad used to say all the
time, sleep when you're dead. I'll sleep when
I'm dead. I'll sleep when I'm dead. Well, he
was wrong. I mean, yes, he's sleeping now, but
he was wrong. He should have slept when he could.
And I know you bring that to the attention. You
bring that to the forefront, but sleep is vital
to us. It's ridiculously important. When we talk
about the weight issue and all those other things,
two things I've noticed that are vitally important,
sleep and hydration, proper hydration. They tell
me because I have this valve, salt isn't the
enemy, and I disagree. I think I need salt. My
workouts are much better when I have salt. But
it's huge. So if we're going to worry about weight,
I found that it's much easier to maintain. I
guess what I'm getting at is that it's much easier
to maintain a comfortable weight and a good weight
with proper sleep, proper nutrition, obviously.
But sleep is huge. It lets your body recover,
period. Absolutely. Well, I mean, you get this
thing. So we talk a lot about, you know, sleep
deprivation being related to cancer and like
I said, testosterone and obesity and, you know,
directly related to all things mental ill health
from addiction to suicide to anxiety and depression
and all above. But musculoskeletal injury is
another big one. And we, you know, you and I
are doing a workout. We're breaking down the
muscle, the connective tissue. And then sleep
is when it rebuilds and is a little bit stronger.
So getting you from, you know, 165 to 190, that
was when you were sleeping that you were building.
And the same with skill acquisition. Now you're
at a high angle class and you're learning Z rigs
and, you know, whatever else. It's when you sleep
that you actually process that and get a little
bit better. So now you look at an understaffed
overworked department with no Kelly, which is
why I spent most of my career. And, you know,
you're working 24, 48, if you're lucky, if not
48, 24, when you get mandatory. When are you
supposed to repair? You still take your job seriously.
You're still pulling hose and climbing the aerial
and doing all these other drills. You're still
working out with the crew every shift. And you
get, again, that chicken wing guy saying, oh,
it's always the fit guys that get hurt. It is.
There's science behind it. Because they take
their job seriously. They're breaking their body
down, expecting to build it during sleep. But
then the sleep is robbed from them. So from a
performance point of view and from a workman's
comp point of view, if your crew, if your department,
if your men and women are not sleeping, it's
when are they going to get hurt is the question.
Not if, but when. No, absolutely. And you mentioned
it briefly. But the other side of that is I can
tell you. And I didn't see it then. Well, maybe
I shouldn't say that. I saw it, but I didn't
realize what the reasoning was behind it, what
was causing it. But I can tell you that when
my sleep cycle is disturbed, my mood is completely
different. Completely. Whether it be, as we mentioned
earlier, thought of doubt. sadness or quicker
to anger. All these other things play in because
I'm not sleeping properly. Let alone, and I'll
say the beginning of this podcast, I had to get
the cobwebs out of here. It was like, okay, here
it is. Get going. Well, that's only because I
haven't slept for the last two days. And I notice
it now. I didn't notice as a young man. It was
just like you said, it's all part of this. The
problem is, is we feed our people. This is the
way it is. And nobody says what you said. Well,
why? Well, because. Okay, why? Hmm. I don't know.
I don't know. Because we've always drank 40.
We've always had a pot of coffee on. 24 7. we've
always caffeinated the crap out of ourselves
we've always hidden our our sadness our depression
our whatever we're carrying in our heads that
day with a few beers with buddies because that
solves the problems takes it all away well it
doesn't take any of it oh i can't sleep okay
we'll have a nice glass of whiskey before bed
well that doesn't do any good either We're sleeping,
but we're not sleeping. We're not in reparative
state. We're not recovering. We're not doing
anything we should be doing. And it just seems
we just, again, I don't have the answer, James,
but I know that we have to change the system.
This can't continue. We're at a golden opportunity
for us to take these younger firefighters. a
whole different generation, a generation that
looks at the world completely different than
I did, and give them the tools they need to get
out the other end healthy and mentally fit. We
have to. I just don't know. I'm at a loss right
now of how we're going to do it, but doggone
it, we're going to get it done. They deserve
it. I agree completely, and I think... you know
i harp about harp on about it all the time but
the biggest herd of elephants in the room and
i was funny i just put a post up today i've seen
it before it's a great kind of comedy skit and
it's a husband and wife and she's talking about
the headache and uh then she turns to the side
you see this massive nail sticking out of her
forehead and the husband's trying to very delicately
delicately suggest that maybe the nail in her
forehead is a problem she's like You always want
to fix things. I just need you to listen. And
so I put a kind of, you know, changed input.
This is the fire service, you know, talking about
the recruitment crisis whilst ignoring the horrendous
work week. Because to me, that is the nucleus.
That is the only thing that people refuse. And,
you know, there are some great departments that
are changing now. Florida is seeing a revolution
at the moment. That is the elephant in the room
in all these things. Everything from the people
that we're losing to the people that we can't
hire and everything in between. And you want
to put fitness standards back, create an environment
for health and performance, and then you can
put that bar up. Because as Gainesville, Pasco
County, all these departments close to me that
have made this move, they've got people lining
up around the building again. So instead of taking
80 % of the list, they can go back to taking
10 % like we did. 10, 15, 20 years ago. And so
now you can say, oh, and by the way, we're going
to hold you to the standard every year. Boom.
Now you've just hit it from two sides. You've
given them a healthy work week and you're now
maintaining fitness. Now, as we mentioned earlier,
you bring in a culturally competent clinician
and at the front door, you work on their mental
health. Now you've got a physically fit responder
who's already starting to process some of the
things. Whether they're just talking about the
weather or whether diving deep into what happened
with their creepy uncle, whatever it is, they're
working on that. And now they've got a healthy
work week where they're home where they're supposed
to be after 42 hours. Now you've got a ripple
effect of a healthy relationship back home. So
to me, the 42 -hour work week, and for people
that are obviously already working that, then
you go to the next level, the fitness standards
and all the other things. But for the majority
that is so woefully understaffed, If you're not
doing a 24 -72, and I know I saw one recently,
it was 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 5 off. Again, look
at the sleep medicine. See what a horrible recovery
period that is. I would argue the 24 -72 is still
the right one. But yeah, that is the biggest
bang for the buck. And then we can start tweaking
all the other things. But the phrase I always
hear is people go for the low -hanging fruit.
I'm doing air quotes. Well, to me, that's the
bitch move. Let me do the easy thing. Maybe we'll
just, we'll bring in an EAP. There we go. Mental
health is taken care of rather than let's get,
as you mentioned earlier, left a bang and figuring
out what are these contributing factors to this
cancer epidemic, this mental health epidemic,
this recruitment crisis. So I think for me, I
don't have all the answers. But there are lots
of answers that we can start diving into that
are going to make a massive difference in all
the things that we talked about. And if you're
not working a 42 hour work week and you're not
fully staffed, that is the massive step one,
in my opinion. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that
is this. That's a great start. Let's get there.
Let's start with that, because that does bring
so much to the table. You know, it just brings
so much of getting the ability to get the proper
sleep you need, the proper recovery, and the
ability to, you know, it just puts everything
back in line. You know, it really does. And there
is no reason, because it's been proven over and
over again, that injuries go down. I mean, you
bring it up all the time. Injury goes down. you're
fully staffed you have a long list of people
that want to come in and do the job it doesn't
cost you the money that the city says well this
is going to cost so much money it doesn't it
actually makes in the long run that that it's
going to save money and you're going to have
better employees you're going to have people
that are coming to work ready to go not tired
you're going to have people that are going to
be able to make better decisions because they're
not exhausted not crash a rig, not push the wrong
drug, not do all these things that happen when
you're running 20, 25 calls a day. And I know,
I understand there's fire departments that don't
do that kind of work. There's guys working this
9648, which I think is insanity, but they're
not running the call volume that the American
fire service is running now. And I, you know,
I saw a post the other day that was, you know,
said that EMS is up. I don't know. 200 % or 300
% or something like that. And the call volume
is up. The call volume is crazy right now. I
mean, there are more fire departments than not
that have multiple companies, City of Milwaukee
being one of them. That is, to do 4 ,000 runs
is not uncommon. I mean, and companies in 6 ,000
runs. But 4 ,000, which used to be considered
a very busy company when I was working, is now
like, yeah, that's the norm. You know, everybody's
doing that. Well, that's not sustainable. We
can't, we can't beat the daylights out of our
people that way. And I, you know, I think of
the work week and one of the things that I really,
that really comes to mind is why, go back to
what I said earlier. Why are we the only ones
that are, that are expected to work 16 hours
extra? We are a trade. we are we are this is
a craft this is a profession this is blue collar
this is all whatever you want to call it they're
only everyone else works a 40 -hour work week
i mean my son soon -to -be son -in -law is a
electrician a union electrician and if he's required
to work that any more than that it's big money
baby big money so We don't think of it that way.
We let the cities, if we're good, strong, hard
unions, we let the cities get away with whatever
they want. We let the cities say, well, you work
56 hours. Oh, and then we'll make you mandate
another day. We'll force you to work another
day. And we're only going to pay you for time
and a half only if we force you to work another
day. And then you work two extra days in a pay
period. Again, we got to stop it. We have to
be courageous. Let's, as union bosses, I was
on e -board, I've been on executive board, as
union bosses, let's fight for what's supposed
to be, wages, hours, working conditions. If we
can do those, we can prove that we actually genuinely
care about our members. Because I think, opinion
only, there are more fire departments than not
that want their people to succeed i didn't sit
up in my ivory tower of the of our administration
in the city of milwaukee and think what ways
can i figure out to beat my people more i listen
to them tell me chief we're getting our our faces
kicked in you got to help us you got to give
us something we were willing to help And willing
to change. But we have to start somewhere. And
I think I'm with you. That 24 -72, let's start
there. Absolutely. Let's make this happen. See,
and I agree with you completely. I think there
is a group, you know, a section of chiefs or
union leaders. that really don't seem to care.
And I would argue that that again is probably
unaddressed mental ill health that, you know,
if you're seemingly unmoved by multiple funerals
of your people and you're, I mean, literally
like digging your heels in and sadly the department
that protects my family, I can say that because
I've given this information for years and nothing
has changed. Then, you know, you've got that.
But then I think, as you said, that middle 80%.
You do have a lot of people and their egos kind
of, you know, sprinkled in there. But I always
tell people like where we are now in this recruitment
crisis, there's almost this facade like the line,
you know, the descending line has crested now.
And it hasn't. It's still aimed at the floor.
So the reality is, if you are the head of a union,
if you're a fire chief, if you're a city or council
or county council member. You really have one
of two choices at this point. You can either
be the person who turns the ship around and you
can be the hero of your own story. You can be
the one that everyone's like, oh yeah, so -and
-so was in office or so -and -so was the chief.
And, you know, and cause I mean, I always kind
of almost laugh, like imagine 20 years from now,
this is folklore that our generation once works
56, 80 hours a week. I hope that's the case.
So you have the ability to turn it around or
option B. is you are known as the person who
sank the ship. That's it. A or B, which one do
you want to be? And then at the lower level,
and this is what they call the action as well
to me, is everyone else who's on the rigs, who's
in the meat grinder, ask yourself, why do your
family not deserve to have you home? Why in your
mind, in this story that you tell yourself that
your job is more important than being present
at that ballet recital or the donuts for dad
or the softball game, you know, or your wife's
promotion or husband's promote, whatever it is
that you put them second fiddle to the city or
county that you truly are just a number. So if
you think that you don't deserve to work a 42
hour week, then just disregard everything we've
been talking about today. But if you actually
see your family is important to you, then you
need to pick up the pitchfork and the torch and
band everyone together and say, why the hell
do we work 56 hours a week? In Florida, there's
a revolution. All these departments are changing
and they're doing it because it's going to save
them money. Why are we not doing it here? All
these pushbacks that we've been told are false
narratives. Fake news is the term I believe we
use today. So now is the time to rise up and
reclaim our fire department and get men and women
in uniform to the left of us and the right of
us that we would be proud to enter a structure
fire with and will maximize the chance of us
coming home to our daughters and sons and husbands
and wives. You know, when I was when I was I
worked for a smaller department before I went
to the city of Milwaukee. And I remember when
I was coming over and I let my brother know that
I was going to be with him. And he called me
and he said, what is wrong with you? Why are
you coming here? And I said, because I want to
fight fires for a living. And he said, you know,
you're working in a department that's smaller.
People know you. The chief knows you. We were
only three firehouses, 60 personnel, I think,
total. Chief knows you. You can live where you
want, all these other things, to where you're
going to move into the city. You have to live
in the city, which I was in favor of. And you
are nothing more than 52083, which is our pension
number. He says, that's what you are. And if
you think anything else, kid, you're dreaming.
Well, quite frankly, as that young man, as that
fire pisser, that's going to save the world,
baby in each hand, flames out the window. I told
him he's full of crap. because i said no if something
happens to me they'll have a 12 -foot high statue
in the middle of city in the middle of city hall
that they'll all come and praise me and which
is all a bunch of lies it's all lies the reality
is we you make an excellent point because the
problem is the fire service is a wicked mistress
she don't care And no matter what we put into
it, she don't kiss back. And we don't see it
when we're in the thick of it. And she is. She's
an evil mistress. She will make you do things.
She will make you leave your family. She will
make you not be at the daughter dance. She will
make you miss the football game. She will make
you miss all those things. And she will convince
you that you're doing it for the greater good.
You're doing it for what's right. You're doing
it for the greater cause. The fact is, the problem
is, is a lot of us do it at the expense of our
own family. And we think, well, you're supposed
to accept that. I don't know, how can you not
accept that I have to go do these things? But
because she is that mistress that doesn't kiss
back, man. I mean, she's something. She'll convince
you of a lot of things. And it's wrong. Because
it's too many of us. Too many of us. Too many
of us are divorced. Too many of us look back
on our lives and say, did we raise our kids the
best we could? Yes. Could we have raised him
better if we weren't divorced? Maybe. All of
those things we got to deal with, let alone that
that also brings with it the idea of, oh, you
know what? A pint here or there, whiskey before
bed, maybe two whiskeys before bed. All these
other things that play into this serving this
mistress and ignoring the things that are really
important. And our family. Key point, what you
said. If we really and truly need to do well,
for me personally, my relationship with my creator,
my family, and then everything else. Nothing
else should be between there. Nothing. And too
many of us look the other way. You know, I mean,
it's just, we just, we just do. And I think that
this generation, these new firefighters that
are coming in the door, are smarter than me.
And they know it. And they go, no, dude, that
doesn't make any sense. I mean, if they did,
we would have people standing out the door, and
we don't, because they're smarter. They're like,
well, wait a minute. I can go do this job and
make good money. And only work 40 hours or I
can do that job. Get my teeth kicked in, get
no sleep, work 16 hours extra a week. Yeah. Oh,
and see things that my mind. What is this? What
are they? Like you said, what is the if my eyes
could if my mind could forget the things my eyes
have seen? Oh, I get to do that, too. I get to
see the horror of what men, what mankind can
do to mankind. Oh, yeah. Sign me up. Where do
I go? You know, that's crazy. It's crazy. See,
I think this is what's so, to be honest, encouraging
is the profession itself is a beautiful thing.
And I actually had the three women from the Dear
Chiefs podcast on. I was talking to one of them
and she relayed a story where she had one of
her sons was all in as a firefighter. His dad
is a firefighter. So he used to wear his firefighter
uniform or costume everywhere. And he was always
like putting out fires with the hose. And then
they had a conversation years later. Now he's,
I think like, you know, 14, 15, something like
that. So kind of getting close to where he'd
be going to cadet programs and that kind of thing.
And they asked him, like, do you still want to
be a firefighter? And he goes. Something like,
he's like, hell no. It was a very kind of explosive
response. And they were kind of taken aback and
they were like, why? And he said, cause daddy's
never home. He didn't say, I don't want to fight
fire. He didn't say, I don't want to be in confined
spaces or a hundred foot up on an aerial. He
said, daddy is never home. And I have watched
so many incredible men and women, you know, male
and female firefighters that I would say is some
of the best parents. And I've watched some of
their lives just disintegrate as they go through
this this meat grinder, you know, and these unending
shifts and these unending mandatory overtimes.
You know, then you weave in toxic culture and
organizational betrayal. And, you know, it's
horrendous. But that is not firefighting. That
is not EMS. That is the working conditions around
it. So to me, I think, you know, she can be a
beautiful mistress. If you get to go there, the
healthy amount of time, do your part, high five
the next shift as you walk out, and then you
be present with your family. So what inspires
me, what really gives me hope is that again,
when we finally get that, and I think we were
talking in your show, to me, there's not much
more innovation left in the fire service. I think
the next thing is drones and, you know. totally
where you're removing humans so the scbas and
the extrication tools and you know a lot of the
rigs they've they they're there so our forefathers
and foremothers came up with these amazing you
know technologies and that's kind of got us where
we are now aside from the american helmet that
you and i were laughing about the other day it
was just from the 1930s we won't go down that
rabbit hole um but um so to me The legacy that
our generation leaves is that we fix the things
that are broken from the human side. And we address
the mental health side, the physical fitness
side, and most importantly, the work week. That
is a legacy that I feel my generation can leave
because I'm not going to invent another version
of a halogen. The halogen is a halogen. The door
opens, you know, the nozzle puts the water out.
I mean, so whatever nozzle is, the water still
puts the fire out. But the opportunity that we
have as our profession to revolutionize the health
side and the performance side and absolutely
reverse the huge detrimental element, not only
to family relationships, but the actual pediatric
diseases that we pass to our children through
the impacts of sleep deprivation, which is a
complete direct correlation as well. We can reverse
all of that. So to me, that's the legacy. That
we leave. And this is why these conversations.
People like you are so important. Because you're
a respected voice in the fire service. You are
from a generation before mine. And to hear you.
Talk about all these things. I think is such
a powerful voice. That we need to hear. You know
that. That moves me. Because without. You knowing
that. My brother. Who. became a firefighter uh
for reasons because he felt that he never i think
he really became a firefighter because he thought
he never uh had the respect of my father which
goes back to that whole childhood thing um hated
the fire service he hated it because my dad was
never home and there were six of us so back then
firefighters didn't make the kind of money we
make so he was always at a part -time job so
if he wasn't in the you know doing the firefighting
thing he was part -time work so on and so forth
so my brother hated it and i think he only became
a firefighter once he got there he you know fell
in love with it because my brother was truly
one who wanted to make the world better uh but
he hated it so it's interesting when you say
that because my when when he came home and told
my dad hey i'm graduating from the fire academy
would you like to come next week my dad almost
fell on the floor because as far as my father
knew he was in the construction industry he wasn't
you know in the fire academy uh so yeah it's
you know let's let's be the ones that change
it let's be the ones let's be the ones bold enough
not to say that's the way it always was let's
be the ones bold enough to create a culture that
is not toxic to create a culture that brings
people in from day one and says hey look i know
exactly how you're feeling because i was in your
shoes i had a probie day too i had my first day
in a firehouse too And my job as a senior person
is to do this. I'm going to take you and make
you me. Because I want you, you are in the best
company in the city. You are in the biggest,
baddest, best company in the city. We have pride.
We have cohesiveness. We have culture. And I'm
going to make you me. So let's go out and let's...
Have you sit in a rig. Let's do these things.
Let's prepare you. Let's make you part of the
team from day one. Not spend the time. You know,
I'm not, I want to be clear. There's a difference
between breaking chops in the firehouse, joking
and having fun, doing the kind of things that,
you know, wouldn't be acceptable in my, in the
office of Conway Shield. Because that's corporate
America. There's a difference between that and
having an individual spend 24 hours soaking wet.
For what reason? Oh, because we always soak the
cub down every day. Why? I don't know. Go back
to the three whys. Let's be the ones that change
it. Let's be the ones that make this. This is,
you know, you're right. When you were saying
that she can be an amazing mistress and she can
be. Because there is nothing greater than knowing
that there's people out walking the face of the
earth, that you had something in that happening
for them, that you gave them the opportunity
by what you did. So it is an amazing profession.
I've seen some amazing things that have truly
been just blessings. So it isn't that it's all
bad. But let's do what we can. As much as we
care for the citizens that we serve, let's do
more than just say they're our brothers and sisters.
Let's truly treat them. like our brothers and
sisters. And let's truly look at their well -being,
look at their physical fitness, look at their
mental health, bring them in so we can carry
on these conversations and we can look at these
things that are much deeper. You know, when you
mentioned that childhood trauma, that really
intrigues me because I knew so many firefighters
that had really tough and i know the military
is no different you talk to those guys you know
i'm i know you're the same thing you interview
people and they go well i barely made it out
of high school i was either going to jail or
going to the service or the fire department or
whatever i really didn't get along with my parents
or i had this you know all of those things it's
like over i can make you can build you can build
their box before you interview so it is what
it is something of our culture And I've never
addressed it. I've never looked at it that way.
And it intrigues me. But let's, you know, we
have an opportunity. Let's do the right thing.
Let's be bold. There's fire chiefs out there.
You know, I know Milwaukee, Eric Dawn's the union
president and Aaron Lipsky's the fire chief.
Those two are working like this and they're doing
everything they can to make that job better.
Well, there's no reason we can't do that all
across the country. There's no reason. We should
really, truly, instead of, let's not talk the
game. Let's not go to a funeral like we did yesterday
and spend an hour and then go home and then just
continue on like it's another day. Let's fix
it. But let's address it way left to bang, as
you put it. Let's put it way out here. let's
start way out here not oh it happened again because
it's crazy you know i know that i know that social
media you know is is this cesspool of information
but it seems like almost daily somebody in our
profession is either dying of cancer or taking
their life That's unacceptable. That's freaking
unacceptable. And I think, you know, I'll get
on the cancer thing for a second if you'll allow
me. I think that I used to look at my guys because
I was a person that, you know, my dad never wore
a mask. I don't think he knew how to put it on
his back. So I was raised in that tough it out,
suck the carpet, you know, lick the lint off
the floor. But I used to tell my young guys.
Don't be me. Be smart. Because if I was going
to, you know, if we take the cancer thing and
I say, all right, every time you don't wear your
mask, I'm going to hit you in the head with a
hammer. You'd put your mask on. Because cancer
is that thing down the road. It gets back to
my valve. If you're not worried about it, it's
no big deal. But when you're heading into surgery
and they're about to give you that little IV
drip and you think, I may not wake up, hey, that's
a different deal, baby. That's a whole different
view. So let's be proactive. Let's make this,
this is the best job in the world. This is the
most amazing craft. This is the best career you
could ever have. Let's take away the things that
beat up the people who raise their right hand
to the completely up to their own lives to protect
the citizens of the community they serve. Let's
fix that. Absolutely. 100%. Well, I think that's
a beautiful place to round off. I don't want
to let you go, though, without talking about
Conway Shield, even though it's been such a beautiful,
organic conversation. I haven't even touched
some of the areas I normally talk about, but
I think this is what's so incredible. And when
I was on your podcast and we had the phone call
before, all of our conversations have been very
similar. So talk to me about the origin story
of Conway Shield and then what are the things
that you're making today in 2025? Sure. So, like
all good firefighters, you know, we all have
a side gig. Because, again, when I started, it
was $14 ,000 a year. That was the pay. Now, granted,
my house was only $49 ,000, so things are all
relative. A friend of mine came to me and knew
I was in the fire service. He was one of my academy
partners. We became good friends in the academy.
He was an Iowa, I always call him an Iowa pig
farmer, but he was from Iowa. He went to order
his front shield, his helmet shield. And they
said it would be about 12 weeks. And he came
to me and he said, well, is this the way it is?
And I said, yeah, that's it. You know, there's
only one manufacturer. It's just the way it is,
bro. Well, that's baloney. We should do something
about it. Well, I happened to my roommate, who
was also a firefighter, happened to his dad was
in the leather business. So he said, well, my
dad's got leather at his house, man. Go over
there. So we grabbed a couple hides of leather.
Craig and I started hand -cutting shields. And
I see these guys on the internet now. They're
hand -cutting stuff and sewing, you know, all
that. And it's like, man, I started that way.
Keep up the great work, man. And I always laugh
because they'll send something back like, well,
dude, you're the OG. Everybody wants to be you.
Well, no, it's not about that. It's about that,
you know, it's great to see that you're doing
the same thing I did. And you'll get there. That
started our first year in 1980. We incorporated
in 1985. So it'll be we actually started in 1984.
We incorporated in 85. So it's 40 years this
year. We made 421 front shields the first year.
And and I think we made six thousand dollars.
We thought, holy cow. And like any good company,
I think we spent seven thousand dollars. So it
was a win. Anyway, within a couple of years.
Unfortunately, Craig was given the option to
either get out or be divorced. So he took the
right thing and he got out and we continue to
grow. At this current time, Conway Shield is
really three different, there's three different
channels, four actually, but there's three. The
first one is our manufacturing, which we only,
we manufacture helmet shields. we manufacture
about a hundred thousand of those a year um we
have close to uh 40 people 40 some people working
for us total um but so there's the manufacturing
division then there's the resale which is uh
we cover oh six states i think with boots on
the ground salesmen selling everything from head
to toe protective clothing we really pretty much
stay in that field we stay in the protective
clothing area um most of my guys are are uh firefighters
that this is what they do in their part -time
gig um so we're we're blessed and very successful
in that um we have a some some partners uh suppliers
that are really wonderful and help us out considerably
um within that is another division we bought
a couple years ago we bought a company called
chief's choice that makes um training smoke and
turnout gear wash And then vehicle wash, things
like that. So we didn't want to see that company
go under. So we bought them. So within the resale
is that company. And then lastly, and for me,
I'm retired. My son now runs the business. So
he is the CEO. So I have gone off and we have
a training division. So we do. The third group
is training. And basically we focus on leadership
and on developing culture and talking about,
you know, the things we talked about here, about
how to make it better. Anybody, you know, there's
a lot of great companies out there that teach
people how to force doors, things like that.
So we're not that. We come in and we want to
break things down. We really coach. We don't
instruct. We coach. And we want to open up conversations
and bring people to come out and say, no, you
know what? You're full of crap. Okay, why? Tell
me why. And let's figure that out. You know,
one of the things that I start, and I just, if
you give me the moment, I opened one of my classes
with, I walk in a room, it's an officer candidate
class, basically. So it's new lieutenants or
people aspiring. And I say, How many here are
firefighters? And the guys raise their hands.
How many are our lieutenants? And the guys raise
their hands. And I say, when I look at, usually
a chief brings me in. I look at the chief and
I go, what am I supposed to do with these cats?
Firefighters, really? You give me firefighters
and then a bunch of new lieutenants. What am
I supposed to do? I don't even know what the
heck I'm doing here, but I'll do my best. And
then I look at the guys and I go. How'd that
make you feel? And they all give me that made
me feel like you should piss off. I said, exactly.
Well, that's what you do to every single probationary
firefighter when they walk in the door and you
treat them that way. Oh, so that's the kind of
thing we do. We want to bring that. We want to
bring the discussion. So that's it. You know,
I've been blessed because it's nothing to do
with me. I really have some amazing people around
me. My dad taught me. My dad didn't finish high
school. He went off to go fight the Japanese.
So he taught me, son, surround yourself with
people smarter than you would be the dumbest
guy in the room. And I took that to heart. And
it's worked out well for me because I'm surrounded
by really good people. And in our job, you know,
we stand by it. At Conway Shield, we protect
courage. and we've been doing it for 40 years
and we'll continue to protect courage because
every single day every single day whether it
be law enforcement or the american fire service
people go to work and they risk their lives and
i'd like to give them the best opportunity because
there are no promises i'd like to give them the
best opportunity to come home and every single
person in my shop believes that way believes
that if you are in our office You will see above
one of our doors, I know they do this in football
all the time, but above one of our doors is a
captain's shield that says it's a three truck
from FDNY. And we have it there because in the
museum, where when you go into the museum at
three truck, That's there and it's all collapsed
and busted and everything else. Patty Brown's
helmet is under glass. And that front shield
that's on there, if you look on the back, it
says Conway Shield. And I know at least one of
those 343, and I know there's more, but at least
one ascended those steps thinking nothing but
to rescue civilians wearing a Conway Shield.
We believe it. And my employees can look at that
every single day and know that that's what they're
here for and that's what they're doing. So in
a nutshell, there's my long extended elevator
speech on Conway Shield. But I appreciate you
giving me the time. I really didn't expect that
at all. But you know what? They love what they
do. You know, we have a family atmosphere there.
And I say that in the idea of it's a firehouse.
We break bread with each other every Wednesday.
Or we, I don't, they do. They break bread with
each other every Wednesday. It's okay to joke
around. It's okay to be able to tell somebody
that might be over the line. Oh, I'm sorry. Please
accept my apology. So yeah, it's a great group
of people. Wonderful place. Amazing. I had the
actor Bobby Burke on a couple of times now and
really good friends with with Patty. So that
was that was actually the reason that he joined
the volunteer fire service. So here's a here's
a funny story. Well, this is a good thing. One
of those funny things to end on. So my daughter
used to watch this something girls, gossip girls
or something like that. And he was in there.
I think he was the father. And I took her to
New York one day so she could walk around all
these places, which I didn't know what we were
doing. She wanted to see this place and this
place. I'm like, what are we doing? Then she
finally explained it to me. And I said, so then
earlier, a good friend of mine, Timmy Brown,
that was a small little cabal. So Burke and actually
back in the day. Because I've known Timmy for
the same time I met him in 1980, something like
82. He came on New York City the same time I
came on Milwaukee. And that's how we became friends.
So they used to hang out at this place that Buscemi
used to be there and Donna Carrington and all
this other, you know, people back in the day.
Well, Burke, this is later on, years later. But
I got to meet him and I got some pictures of
like, we're all just here. you know to me he's
just okay he's an actor and i know i don't take
anything away from him but you know i don't know
him from adam and my daughter sees it and says
wait a minute you know whatever his name was
in the on the show you know him i'm like well
honey i don't really know him but yeah i was
with him oh my god i can't believe that you know
it was like we were in a room like hey uh timmy
goes hey this is bobby burke hey paul conway
nice to meet you you know later on i'm like who's
bobby burke because i don't follow acting a lot
you know like dude he's an actor oh cool okay
you know whatever but yeah so i i actually have
i haven't met him uh he seemed like a very nice
dude you know i mean i i do laugh that i see
some of the people you you have on um recently
it was kind of and i know i'm off topic now but
you had uh the guy from sicario uh josh brolin
yeah yeah I was like, oh, dude, I'll have to
listen to that because, you know, he seems like
a pretty I only watched a couple of little snippets
of it. He seemed like a pretty interesting cat.
Yeah, no, he is. Well, Bobby, Bobby and Johnny
Lee Miller more recently, who was in Trainspotting.
I don't know if you ever watched that film, but
Bobby has been a volunteer now for. I think basically
since 9 -11. So, you know, whatever, like 23
years now. Johnny D. Miller just joined the neighboring
company. So those two train now, which is really
cool. And then Josh, a lot of people don't know
this, he volunteered for three seasons as a wildland
firefighter when he was kind of in his, I think
it was 20s. So another guy who actually has worn
the uniform. So yeah, some of these actors we
know are just flaming narcissists, but there's
a lot of people that do that as a profession
that are phenomenal, phenomenal human beings.
Oh, absolutely. And I know that if I remember,
Captain of 21 Engine, his last name was Burke.
I think they were related. I don't. I'm trying
to remember the story, but I think that's how
it all came together. Because the captain at
21 Engine was killed on the 11th. But I think
his last name was Burke, too. I think they were
related. I'm just pulling things out of my tail
now. Well, one quick question before I throw
some closing questions at you. You mentioned
about your dad going off to fight the Japanese.
My book that I've just written, which, funny
enough, talking about acting. finishing up the
screenplay now for the pilot, hell bent on getting
that on the screen to really, you know, you talk
about hearts and minds. Imagine if you had a
show about us that every, you know, a lot of
Americans saw our profession, the families, you
know, the, the civilians, the impact that you
could have with a, you know, raw, real show,
not, not some cheesy soap opera. Not somewhere
we're having love affairs in a firehouse like
Chicago Fire or whatever. Yeah, exactly. A bunch
of models saving people, as I always say. But,
you know, one of the other themes in the book
is multigenerational trauma. Now, you mentioned
about your dad coming home from war. When you
reflect back now, his service in World War II
and or the fire service, because especially that
generation, we romanticize that they came back
from war and they just rolled up their sleeves
and they went to work and they were absolutely
fine. Not like our generation, we're all whining
about feelings. But you listen to the fathers,
the grandfathers, that generation. And a lot
of times that wasn't the case. It did have an
impact when they came back. When you reflect
back now, what is your perception with this mature
lens that you have today? I will say that my,
first off, the love that my father has for the
United States Navy, or had till the day he died,
was unbelievable. So there was something there,
there was a bond there that was second to none.
I wish now, because my dad didn't talk a lot
about it, like most of those guys apparently
did, that I wish now, when he was showing me
all these islands, Okinawa, Sasebo, all these
places, I wish I would have paid more attention.
Because he would talk about dropping Marines
here and dropping Marines there, and I just didn't
pay attention. and i wish i could i wish i would
have um i know this i know that my dad was not
you know perfect um and i'm sure there were things
that that i know affected him i know one day
he brought yeah you know he used to tell a story
about they had to throw all their food overboard
because there was no more place there was no
place to store in marines anymore so they they
put them in the food coolers um And I know that
bothered him because he constantly brought it
up. I know that the suffering, because he made
many mention of not being, you know, starving.
You don't know what starving is. Kids ate out
of my garbage can. You know, all that other things
that came on with war. I do know, you know, that
my good friend, when I was growing up, his dad,
my neighbor, his dad. used to lose his mind on
a regular basis i mean he would go nuts drop
something he would go crazy well we didn't know
it till he died but when he died his dad was
in the ranger battalion that scaled point to
hawk as a young man i'm thinking i don't know
what's wrong with this old man but he's nuts
yeah he was nuts he was shell shocked you know
and and but nobody knew it so yeah you know i
mean to think that they just that's wrong my
other friend his dad was sir was in the service
his dad was a drunk end of story you know so
so those you know the human conditions were all
the same it didn't you know maybe those people
were harder you know my grandparents were depression
era people You know, they were both my grandfather's,
both World War I service. You know, they might
have been harder, but emotionally, internally,
we're all human. You know, we just had a harder
outside shell. So, yeah, looking back, definitely,
you know, if you talk to my sister, she'll say
there was all kinds of mental strife in the house.
i don't remember maybe i don't remember because
i blocked it out maybe one day it'll all come
to me i don't know but uh she'll say oh no you
know it was crazy around our house maybe you
know she sees it differently so yeah yeah yeah
just that's it you know just that my dad really
didn't say much about it um but i know that again
he was in the navy so he was on a troop transport
and you know the only time he ever talked about
like kamikazes at okinawa he was not real he
wasn't really fan of them i the best thing i'd
say about my dad is i remember when i was young
i bought the first like new car i bought was
a subaru and i parked it in his driveway and
my dad came out and said get that blankety blank
out of my driveway. I sent that thing over there
at 2 ,500. I sent metal over there at 2 ,500
pounds at a time so they could turn around and
make cars with it. Park that shit in the street.
Okay, dad. Point taken. I'm not going to argue
with you. So that's about that on that one. But
yeah. Brilliant. I appreciate you going there.
It was an interesting perspective because, I
mean, again, when you have all these conversations,
it debunks some of these myths. And were there
some people that came home and, again, as we
mentioned, probably had these great healing mechanisms
that were kind of inbuilt and they did just fine?
Yeah, but, I mean, we've got to also acknowledge
the other side as well. Yeah, you know, I don't,
you know, I don't, you know, let's say this.
Feeling sorry for yourself was never really running
rampant in my household. There was really no,
you know, there was no time for it. My dad made
sure there was no time for it. You know, there
was no time. If you were going to dig ditches,
be the best ditch digger. If you were going to,
you know, whatever. It was just like, get up,
pick yourself up, get moving. There's no time
for this shit or stuff. So would some people
say that that alone is a... you know a stressor
point what i will say about the thing i think
that i saw in my father more than he always said
he always said that you have to believe in something
bigger than yourself and uh i watched him fight
fires sometimes or come home all burned up uh
or go to the hospital then come home all burned
up um But he had this, he just had this, this,
he did have an idea that he kind of transferred
to my brother and I that whatever this is, it's
easy. Because the other stuff he did was hard.
And there's nothing to this firefighting thing.
It's easy. You know, the danger of it, not that,
not that profession, but the day, you know, this
is no, there's, this is nothing. So I think he
probably brought that home with him, that if
he survived that, if he survived, because my
dad couldn't swim, so he's definitely afraid
that he was going to, you know. And it's like,
Dad, you were in the engine room. It wouldn't
have mattered anyway. You would have been torpedoed
and sank like a rock. But he, you know, he was
always afraid of having that he would drown.
But I think that his attitude was if he survived
that, he could survive anything. And I think
a lot of guys came home with that. You know,
I think today, I think I saw when I worked, I
saw firefighters that were, I had bosses that
were Vietnam era guys and they were fearless,
fearless because they were some of them, you
know, one of them, Bobby Cousins was a tunnel
rat. This was nothing to him, you know, and I
followed those guys anywhere because they, they
just gave a sense of confidence that was amazing.
And there's nothing they wouldn't take on. And
if they did, you knew it was really bad. If they
were like, hey, kid, we're going to sit this
one out. Yeah, it was bad. So anyway, what else
you got for me? Amazing. Well, I'm just going
to close up. So for people listening, if they
want to reach out to you, where are the best
places? And then where are the best places to
find Conway Shield? Well, the Conway Shield can
be found at conwayshield .com. Also, we certainly
have our... podcast beyond the shield is on is
on multiple platforms but on youtube uh we are
in facebook and instagram and all the other things
under conway shield um for me personally if you
want to reach out to me my my personal email
address and i will get this is p conway p as
in paul conway at conwayshield .com uh i'm more
than willing to you know to I am an open book.
As I said when we started this, I'm willing to
talk with anybody. I'm willing to have discussions
with anybody. Because one thing, yesterday it
was mentioned several times that Bill was a perpetual
student. He never stopped learning. When I retired
12 years ago, my biggest fear was what I was
going to do. I think one of the things that,
and we didn't touch on it, so I will briefly
now. One of the things that I think we miss is
when we leave this job, if it becomes who we
are, not what we do, we don't know what we're
going to do when we no longer have it. And I
was concerned that what was this going to be?
For 30 years of my life, this is what I was.
And I had grown in maturity to realize it was
what I did, not who I was. But it was still,
man, what am I going to do? So I realized I dove
into the learning. Always be the student. Learn.
I read. I can't stop reading. You know, I love
to read. I just, I love to read. So, and I want
to learn and I want to, you know, I want to,
when I saw, when I started listening to you and
started seeing things like, I got to meet, I
got to meet this dude. I got to find out who
he is. I can find out what he's, you know, what's
he getting at here. This is, this is like, for
me, this is really impressive. So anyway, P.
Conway at Conway Shield. And I'm willing to,
I'm willing to chat with anybody, you know. I
am not. I am not above having great discussions
with people, even people. I know we live in a
world right now that is very, you know, this
way. I'm not into that. But, you know, I have
kids, you know, I have four different children
and they, some of them may not think the same
way I do. But I always tell them, as long as
you have a belief system that you're willing
to stand behind and you have the whys. It's not
just a talking head. You have the whys. I'm good.
I'm good. Because I've learned I'm not the man
I was at 20. I told you that. I'm not the man
I was at 30. And I won't be this guy, Lord willing,
20 years from now. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that's how you can find us. Beautiful. Well,
I want to thank you so much. I mean, you know,
not only the legacy that you've had as far as
wearing the uniform, being in the fire service,
but... Just being this voice now, and I had an
amazing trip to California a couple weeks ago,
and there was three veterans. One was from LAFD,
one was a Chicago firefighter, and one was Boston.
And all of these men were talking about the mistakes
they've made, whether it was wearing gear, whether
it was talking about the mental health side.
These are... absolutely the voices that we need
to hear because then it debunks the, oh, the
war years, you know, the kind of romanticizing
that we hear these young guys spouting. So hearing
you talk today and hearing your perspective,
all these things and hearing you be vulnerable
about your father and about your brother and
these other areas that we've gone to, I think
is so, so important. So I want to thank you so,
so much for being so generous with your time
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
no james thank you very much uh i'm gonna let's
leave with this that whole warriors thing it
wasn't what it was it's just it's it's been turned
into something and i'm not those guys went to
a ton of work you know the guys i the guys in
the 60s went to a ton of work in the 90s i was
doing two to three structure fires a day so they
now the kids look and they say well the 90s were
the war years and i looked in the 60s were more
years The reality is it wasn't what it was cracked
up to be. Yeah, we went to a lot of fires, but
we weren't training every day. We weren't drilling
every day. We weren't doing a lot of that stuff.
And I think sometimes it's just, it's, you know,
oh, it was such a wonderful idea. No, riding
on a tailboard sucked. It was cold. It was miserable.
You smell diesel fuel as diesel exhaust. Horrible.
Long boots, garbage. steam running down your
legs burning your knees garbage garbage so you
can talk all you want you didn't live it and
i'm telling you it wasn't the fantasy you think
it was it wasn't but that's what we do as humans
you know we always look back and you know i think
like my dad my dad talking about how amazing
being on being on the two ships he was on because
he was in world war ii and then he got called
back to go to korea so he's not a destroyer in
korea and and just the the the love affair he
had with that ship i bet he didn't have it then
i bet he wasn't too impressed then and it's the
same thing we look back at it and it seemed you
know my time in the fire academy oh glorious
years that sucked when i was living it sucked
so uh let's not let's let's do this for each
other let's live in the moment and let's make
this moment the best moment so thank you for
having me on i really appreciate it i uh i i
really appreciate it you're doing an amazing
job and uh i i thank you for your friendship
um i just thank you wonderful keep up the great
work