WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran

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-owned and operated performance optimization

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company that I introduced recently as a sponsor

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on this show. Well, since then I have actually

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been using my products and I have had incredible

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success. There was initial blood work that was

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extremely detailed and based on that they offered

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supplementation. So I began taking DHEA. BPC

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-157 for inflammation based on the fact that

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I've been a stuntman, a martial artist and a

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firefighter my whole life. Lots of aches and

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pains. Dihexa to help cognition after multiple

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punches to the head and shift work and peptides.

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Four months later they did a detailed blood work

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again and I was actually able to taper off two

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of the peptides because my body had responded

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so well to just one of them that it was optimized

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which I would argue is needed by a lot of the

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fire service, or whether it's exogenous testosterone

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needed, especially after TBIs or advanced age.

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Now, as I mentioned before, the other side of

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this company is an altruistic arm called the

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Transcend Foundation, which is putting veterans

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the Products tab. And if you want to hear more

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808 with the founder, Ernie Colling. or go to

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transcendcompany .com. This episode is sponsored

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by TeamBuildr, yet another company that's doing

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great things for the first responder community.

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who also trains tactical athletes, dissemination

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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you

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think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome

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to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,

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my name is James Gearing, and this week it is

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my absolute honor to welcome on the show first

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responder, movie stunt performer, stunt scientist,

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and the man behind Team Wildfire, Steve Wolf.

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Now, in this conversation, we discuss a host

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of topics from his unique journey into the world

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of Hollywood, pyrotechnics, special effects,

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his work on the Discovery Channel. using science

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to help the wildland community, podcasting, and

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so much more. Now, before we get to this incredible

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conversation, as I say every week, please just

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take a moment, go to whichever app you listen

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to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback,

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and leave a rating. Every single five -star rating

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truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making

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it easier for others to find. And this is a free

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library of well over 1 ,000 episodes now. So

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all I ask in return is that you help share these

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incredible men and women's stories so I can get

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them to every single person on planet Earth who

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needs to hear them. So with that being said,

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I introduce to you Steve Wolf. Enjoy. Well, Steve,

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I want to start by saying thank you so much for

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taking the time and coming on the Behind the

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Shield podcast today. Hey, thanks so much for

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having me, James. And it was a pleasure having

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you on the fire break. Yeah, and I appreciate

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that, too. So where on planet Earth are we finding

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you this afternoon? This afternoon, you'll find

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me in Boulder, Colorado. But hopefully you won't

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find me because I'm really not looking to be

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found today. All right. Well, let's start at

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the very beginning of your story. You've got

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a really interesting background. A lot of your

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story is similar to mine as well. Tell me where

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you were born and tell me a little bit about

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your family dynamic, what your parents did, how

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many siblings. Sure. My port of entry to the

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U .S. was the Upper East Side of Manhattan. Actually,

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port of entry to the Earth, I suppose. So born

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in Manhattan. Lived in New York City until I

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was six. Then we moved to Switzerland. My dad

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at the time was an international banker who turned

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TV food reporter. And my mom was an art and antiques

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appraiser. I'm the oldest of three boys. My middle

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brother was the lead videographer for CNN for

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many years. and my youngest brother has developed

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innovative ways to use bamboo for housing furniture

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and bicycles so everyone's doing something interesting

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and my youngest brother and i work together fairly

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frequently when we're doing technology innovation

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and movie work so movie work to say that i've

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worked as a special effects coordinator on numerous

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feature films television shows music videos for

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the last 30 i'll just say 30 plus years that

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could be plus 15 who knows but um i worked for

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tom cruise worked for james cameron working as

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a pyrotechnician blowing things up and simultaneously

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running a program called science in the movies

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where i teach stem concepts to school -aged children

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using movie stunts and special effects as the

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examples So, James, this was interesting that

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we had both worked as stunt performers in the

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special effects field and entertainment and both

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found ourselves moving across over into fire.

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Absolutely. Well, I want to go back firstly to

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Switzerland. I think it's always. I want to go

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back to Switzerland too. It's so interesting

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when people have been in different parts of the

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world, especially if they live there, because

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you can then glean, okay, what about that culture

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did you like? Maybe other parts of the world

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could learn from. And then conversely, were there

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any things that were the opposite? So when you

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reflect back, what was it like being a young

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American growing up in Switzerland? It was really

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great. A big change from New York City where

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it was all buildings. This was a lot of open

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space, a lot of sky, cows and green pastures,

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unpolluted lakes. So that would be the first

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thing that would strike you would be just simply

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the geography of the area being extremely beautiful.

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The air being clean and the Swiss being precise.

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So as a fledgling scientist, I was very impressed

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with how. accurately everything is handled in

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Switzerland. When you go to pick up your shirts

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at the dry cleaner, they're all perfectly folded.

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They're all 62 .5 centimeters wide at the fold.

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They pride themselves on that precision. When

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I was in fourth grade, we took a trip to CERN,

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which was the nuclear accelerator facility that

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surrounds Geneva. That was the first time I saw

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you know, massive scale scientific technology

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at use for the purpose of discovering, I'm not

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sure what, but I think they had an idea. And

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it was the first time I heard the word Google.

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And at the time it was simply referring to numerical

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quantity, not a search engine, because I don't

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think the internet was a thing then. When you

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reflect back, was there any discussion or any

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part of your education that told the story of

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how Switzerland was able to remain neutral when

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war was all around it in the 40s? Well, largely

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because not only was war all around it, but mountains

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were all around it. And unless you planned some

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type of an aerial attack, Switzerland has the

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natural barriers of mountains all around it.

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The Romans were the first to find out how difficult

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it would be to take Switzerland as they tried

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moving from Italy across the Alps. Until the

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tunnel was put in, there really wasn't an easy

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land route into Switzerland. So that's one of

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the things that helped maintain neutrality. The

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other one is that wealthy people from around

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the world have their money stored there and they

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don't want their money screwed with. So if you

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mess with Switzerland, you're going to be messing

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with a lot of very powerful, wealthy people that

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you can't even imagine. That's interesting and

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kind of sad in a way that you can, in theory,

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buy your way out of a war. Well, they simply

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don't take sides. I don't know that they buy

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their way out. They just don't participate. They

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have amazing chocolate, great watches, clean

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mountain air, delicious food. So what's to go

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to war over? If other people have differences

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and they can't settle them amicably, that's their

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problem, as the Swiss would think. And we're

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going to go back and eat some chocolate and some

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cheese. When I think of precision, I lived in

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Japan for 15 months. And again, very precise

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people. And when you look at a lot of the industry

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over there, it is their excellence when it comes

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to attention to detail and diligence, I think

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that creates a superior product in many areas.

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What was it about the Swiss upbringing that created

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the same ethos? For me, I attended the Lycée

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des Nations and then the École Internationale

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in Geneva. And the ethos there is a combination

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of forward -looking progress, attention to detail

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and respect for the past. And I think that the

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sense of place that you have in Europe with regard

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to time is very different than in many other

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places. When you walk around Europe, you know,

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you could be living in a building from the 1600s

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as we did when we first moved to Geneva. We were

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in the Vieilleville and you look out over the

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rooftops and you realize that, you know, you're

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the 20th generation to live in that building

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or the 50th generation to walk down those streets

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or the cobblestones. And so there's a sense of

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respect that you get for the area as a function

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of your little time in it, who you inherited

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it from, and who you're leaving it to. The farmhouse

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I grew up in dated back to the 1600s. It was

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crazy. And that was just my house. It didn't

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seem like anything out of the ordinary. So it's

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amazing when you go back home to Europe. I mean,

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there's so much history there. And it's interesting

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because when Americans say that, they'll be like,

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oh, we don't have much history there, here. And

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then I'm sure the Native Americans are looking

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around going, wait a second, what was that you

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just said? Right. Well, unfortunately, our culture

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is very dismissive of other cultures, different

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cultures, foreign cultures, and Native cultures.

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So in the United States, we tend to simply look

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forward. Here's where we are and here's where

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we're going. And without a sense of where we've

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been, we lack a place, a sense of place and time.

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Where do we fit in to the human story? And one

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of the consequences of looking backwards and

00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:14.980
seeing where you came from is it enhances an

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awareness. That there's a future going forward

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and that the decisions we make are going to impact

00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:23.120
our children and our grandchildren. And this

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was something actually that was the native cultures

00:13:26.019 --> 00:13:28.700
here in the U .S. were quite known for is the

00:13:28.700 --> 00:13:31.440
concept of the seventh generation, that every

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decision we make is done weighing the impacts

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on seven generations forward. And I'm really

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not sure why they excluded the importance of

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the eighth and ninth generation, but. We don't

00:13:44.539 --> 00:13:46.879
even look forward to one generation. So that

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would be a huge improvement in our culture. Where

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do you think that comes from? It's interesting.

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Not only you in the science world, you had a

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childhood in Switzerland, but I've reflected

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on this a lot recently. We are starting to see

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somewhat of a full circle where we're finally

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acknowledging ancient wisdom and whether it's

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stoicism being extremely popular in literature

00:14:08.940 --> 00:14:12.159
and podcasts now, whether it's realizing that

00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:14.950
not. covering your foods with chemicals and feeding

00:14:14.950 --> 00:14:17.389
your animals hormones and antibiotics is actually

00:14:17.389 --> 00:14:21.049
much healthier for the human being but in in

00:14:21.049 --> 00:14:23.009
medicine especially which is obviously my world

00:14:23.009 --> 00:14:24.710
there's been a lot of arrogance like if you're

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not doing it the the 2020 way then you know you

00:14:27.289 --> 00:14:28.990
don't know what you're talking about and there's

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a disregard through some eyes of a millennia

00:14:32.649 --> 00:14:35.009
of human wisdom and all these things that we've

00:14:35.009 --> 00:14:38.009
learned so what is it about some of these kind

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of entities that have created such a disdain

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from the very knowledge we should be learning

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from? I can't tell you what's created the disdain

00:14:47.019 --> 00:14:49.240
for it. I can tell you that I don't participate

00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:54.940
in it. Humans are about 200 ,000 years old in

00:14:54.940 --> 00:15:00.539
our relatively similar form. And we've been taking

00:15:00.539 --> 00:15:03.860
notes along the way. And that accumulated wisdom

00:15:03.860 --> 00:15:08.840
is... is held both within our bodies and our

00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:12.139
minds and in our cumulative knowledge bodies.

00:15:14.059 --> 00:15:17.759
When we talk about science, people think that

00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:20.039
we have to have invented something new for it

00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:24.919
to be valid. When most science has already been

00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:27.700
proven, the laws of physics are the same in every

00:15:27.700 --> 00:15:32.840
part of the galaxy that we know of. And so much

00:15:32.840 --> 00:15:37.799
thought has been put into science by people who

00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:40.240
were a lot less busy than we are. People who

00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:43.759
had a lot more time to contemplate, to ponder,

00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:48.460
to really think about the universe, about science,

00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:52.200
about humans, about our place here, about health.

00:15:52.899 --> 00:15:57.220
And much of that wisdom was discarded with a

00:15:57.220 --> 00:16:02.669
type of a not invented here mentality. You know,

00:16:02.669 --> 00:16:05.049
as we discover new things, we're finding that

00:16:05.049 --> 00:16:09.710
the source of them is often in antiquity. So

00:16:09.710 --> 00:16:11.929
when we go out to look for new cancer drugs,

00:16:12.070 --> 00:16:14.990
where do we go? We go to the Yumba Indians in

00:16:14.990 --> 00:16:17.789
the Amazon. We look at what their diets are.

00:16:17.870 --> 00:16:21.210
How do they treat things? How have they preserved

00:16:21.210 --> 00:16:25.529
this collective body of wisdom, experiential

00:16:25.529 --> 00:16:29.960
knowledge? What gave us the idea that, you know,

00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:32.100
that if we ate the bark of a particular tree,

00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:35.419
it would cure a headache, right? That's where

00:16:35.419 --> 00:16:37.840
aspirin was right now. Bayer didn't come up with

00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:40.179
that. You know, that this was something that

00:16:40.179 --> 00:16:43.740
had been developed through hundreds and thousands

00:16:43.740 --> 00:16:46.980
of years of evolutionary knowledge. You know,

00:16:46.980 --> 00:16:49.100
you ate this thing, it killed you. You ate that

00:16:49.100 --> 00:16:50.860
other thing, it cured your stomach ache. You

00:16:50.860 --> 00:16:53.679
ate that other thing, it took away your headache.

00:16:54.220 --> 00:16:56.299
You ate too much of that thing, you got too fat,

00:16:56.340 --> 00:17:01.169
right? So we've learned this, but we've largely

00:17:01.169 --> 00:17:02.950
discarded a lot of that knowledge. And that's

00:17:02.950 --> 00:17:06.730
unfortunate because, unfortunately, what we found

00:17:06.730 --> 00:17:09.390
now is there's no money to be made in keeping

00:17:09.390 --> 00:17:12.349
people healthy. We don't have a health care system.

00:17:12.490 --> 00:17:15.650
We have an illness treatment system. And so if

00:17:15.650 --> 00:17:17.529
you don't present with illnesses, you're not

00:17:17.529 --> 00:17:21.029
a financial opportunity to our health care system

00:17:21.029 --> 00:17:24.900
as it exists in the U .S. where in many countries

00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:28.440
the focus is on health preservation, health enhancement,

00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:32.980
health maintenance. And here we largely lack

00:17:32.980 --> 00:17:36.180
a concept of what healthy is. Health is not simply

00:17:36.180 --> 00:17:41.240
the absence of illness. So there's a huge chasm

00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:44.720
there to be forged with regard to how we think

00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:48.210
about health. Absolutely. Well, I've always said

00:17:48.210 --> 00:17:50.849
this. I mean, this is at its origin. The country

00:17:50.849 --> 00:17:53.950
I came from had national health care. And so

00:17:53.950 --> 00:17:56.710
back then, when you have a tax based health care

00:17:56.710 --> 00:18:00.450
system, purely tax based, that then creates a

00:18:00.450 --> 00:18:03.549
real desire to make your nation as healthy as

00:18:03.549 --> 00:18:05.829
possible because the healthier they are, the

00:18:05.829 --> 00:18:07.829
less they use the health care. And it's now for

00:18:07.829 --> 00:18:10.029
newborns and the elderly and traffic accidents

00:18:10.029 --> 00:18:14.049
and, God forbid, cancers. But then you look at

00:18:14.049 --> 00:18:16.759
the American model. And just like you said, I

00:18:16.759 --> 00:18:19.579
say this all the time, there's no profit in healthy

00:18:19.579 --> 00:18:21.740
or dead people. But if you can keep people in

00:18:21.740 --> 00:18:24.140
between, you've got a drug addict for life. And

00:18:24.140 --> 00:18:26.160
this is not a conspiracy theory. It's just pure

00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:30.539
economics. We have a profit -based healthcare

00:18:30.539 --> 00:18:33.400
system. So the more sick people we have, and

00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:35.460
we've seen this because 70 % of our population

00:18:35.460 --> 00:18:38.740
is overweight or obese, the greater percentage

00:18:38.740 --> 00:18:41.200
of the pie that you can keep on these drugs or

00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:43.869
need these surgeries. the more money your company

00:18:43.869 --> 00:18:46.309
makes. So until we have a national awakening

00:18:46.309 --> 00:18:48.029
on the very things that you just talked about,

00:18:48.230 --> 00:18:50.349
it's just going to get worse and worse and worse.

00:18:50.509 --> 00:18:52.849
And then alongside that, we have a national security

00:18:52.849 --> 00:18:55.390
crisis because now you've only got 30 % of the

00:18:55.390 --> 00:18:57.230
people that are actually even able to put on

00:18:57.230 --> 00:19:00.450
a uniform and defend this country now. So it's

00:19:00.450 --> 00:19:02.430
a massive, massive conversation that needs to

00:19:02.430 --> 00:19:07.130
be had. Well, very much. If we were to prioritize

00:19:07.130 --> 00:19:09.750
enemies by the degree to which they threaten

00:19:09.750 --> 00:19:14.369
American lives, Domestic diet would probably

00:19:14.369 --> 00:19:17.470
be far higher than the threats posed by any foreign

00:19:17.470 --> 00:19:23.869
national entity. We kill 600 ,000 Americans through

00:19:23.869 --> 00:19:26.849
heart disease every year. Companies that are

00:19:26.849 --> 00:19:29.069
selling billions of dollars of statins every

00:19:29.069 --> 00:19:31.670
year have no interest in funding the messaging

00:19:31.670 --> 00:19:33.210
that if you were to eat less meat, you'd have

00:19:33.210 --> 00:19:37.950
less heart disease. So messaging costs money.

00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:40.759
And money is paid for by things that are profitable

00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:43.420
and treating diseases profitable. The thing is

00:19:43.420 --> 00:19:47.500
that it's not sustainable because we can't continue

00:19:47.500 --> 00:19:50.059
to spend $40 billion a year on cardiac care,

00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:54.859
ignoring the fact that 99 % of that is completely

00:19:54.859 --> 00:19:57.380
avoidable as a function of diet and lifestyle

00:19:57.380 --> 00:20:03.240
changes. Now, I understand that doctors are largely

00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:09.160
dissuaded by their patients' behavior. from preaching

00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:11.500
nutrition because people simply don't listen.

00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:17.259
I knew a doctor who informed a diabetes patient

00:20:17.259 --> 00:20:21.539
that she was going to lose her feet. And they

00:20:21.539 --> 00:20:24.200
asked, well, why didn't you tell her to change

00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:26.519
her diet? And he said, I've said that so many

00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:28.759
times, people stop listening, I just stop saying

00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:35.019
it. So people have accepted illness as a chronic

00:20:35.019 --> 00:20:40.309
state. And the healthcare industry's not done

00:20:40.309 --> 00:20:45.269
much to change that. With regard to wildfire,

00:20:45.470 --> 00:20:50.230
the threat is largely airborne. That wildfire

00:20:50.230 --> 00:20:54.470
smoke is 15 times more dangerous to health than

00:20:54.470 --> 00:20:59.289
ordinary pollutants, than the smog that people

00:20:59.289 --> 00:21:02.009
breathe in large cities, because it contains

00:21:02.009 --> 00:21:06.009
heavy metals and it contains... large quantities

00:21:06.009 --> 00:21:08.309
of things that we just normally don't breathe.

00:21:08.509 --> 00:21:14.009
Like as a mobile species, when an area was threatened,

00:21:14.109 --> 00:21:16.490
we left. When there was no food, we left. When

00:21:16.490 --> 00:21:19.250
it was on fire, we left. Well, now we have permanent

00:21:19.250 --> 00:21:21.609
homes. So when there's a nearby fire, we don't

00:21:21.609 --> 00:21:23.769
leave. We just close the windows and hope that

00:21:23.769 --> 00:21:27.390
we can get a decent HEPA filter to protect us.

00:21:27.730 --> 00:21:30.650
But while that may work for people who do have

00:21:30.650 --> 00:21:32.970
the luxury of staying at home, it doesn't work

00:21:32.970 --> 00:21:35.660
for the firefighters on the line. They're exposed

00:21:35.660 --> 00:21:41.119
to toxins at levels that really are impermissible.

00:21:41.740 --> 00:21:45.119
And that's with both wildfire and structural

00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:49.799
firefighting. You know better than anyone, James,

00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:52.880
what the death rates are from chemical exposure

00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:58.740
to agents that people were told were safe. We're

00:21:58.740 --> 00:22:00.359
justified by saying, well, what do you want to

00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:03.220
do, lose the whole city? A few firefighter deaths

00:22:03.220 --> 00:22:04.859
is nothing compared to losing the whole city.

00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:07.380
Well, if you're a firefighter or that firefighter's

00:22:07.380 --> 00:22:10.039
family, it's the worst thing that could happen.

00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:14.160
Absolutely. Well, speaking of health, I just

00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:17.200
want to go back to your journey into the film

00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:20.000
and the special effects world. When you were

00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:22.200
young, this could be the States and or Switzerland,

00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:24.839
what were you playing as far as sports and exercise

00:22:24.839 --> 00:22:28.869
back then? Well, that's a great question. I don't

00:22:28.869 --> 00:22:30.309
know if you've seen a movie called The Boys in

00:22:30.309 --> 00:22:33.210
Company C. It was the predecessor to Full Metal

00:22:33.210 --> 00:22:36.490
Jacket, even starring the same people, although

00:22:36.490 --> 00:22:38.650
it got far less credit because it was an independent

00:22:38.650 --> 00:22:44.529
movie rather than a studio film. But in that

00:22:44.529 --> 00:22:47.470
movie, which is about a bunch of young kids from

00:22:47.470 --> 00:22:51.390
the States who are drafted and being sent to

00:22:51.390 --> 00:22:55.599
Vietnam, one of their drill instructors tells

00:22:55.599 --> 00:22:58.279
them that he believes that people are influenced

00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:02.380
by the games they play as children. He said that

00:23:02.380 --> 00:23:05.099
in the United States, they play baseball and

00:23:05.099 --> 00:23:07.279
you play from a fixed position and you have a

00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:10.299
fixed series of sequences that you perform in

00:23:10.299 --> 00:23:13.740
order to score a home run. Whereas people in

00:23:13.740 --> 00:23:16.579
Europe and Asia play soccer, which was a fluid

00:23:16.579 --> 00:23:19.299
and dynamic game where wherever the ball is,

00:23:19.380 --> 00:23:23.299
that's where the game is. And you're constantly...

00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:27.220
In a new game every minute, the ball is here,

00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:28.700
it's one game, the ball is there, it's a new

00:23:28.700 --> 00:23:30.819
game. Right now you're not engaged, the next

00:23:30.819 --> 00:23:34.880
minute you are engaged. And that type of fluid

00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:39.259
dynamic training that comes from playing games

00:23:39.259 --> 00:23:41.599
like soccer creates people who are much more

00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:46.400
adaptable to change because that's what they

00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:49.779
grew up with. Once you've had your at -bat in

00:23:49.779 --> 00:23:52.160
baseball, you know you're not up until the next

00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:56.460
whatever. nine plays or something. Whereas in

00:23:56.460 --> 00:23:58.539
soccer, you could be out in left field and there's

00:23:58.539 --> 00:23:59.720
nothing happening. And then all of a sudden,

00:23:59.740 --> 00:24:03.119
boom, the actions come to you. So I think that

00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:07.240
that type of early experiences with fluid dynamic

00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:09.380
games are really important for people who are

00:24:09.380 --> 00:24:13.319
in tactical situations. Because this is one of

00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:14.980
the things that, you know, that kills firefighters

00:24:14.980 --> 00:24:17.160
is like, well, you know, the fire's inside, I'm

00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:20.059
outside. Yeah, that's fine until the facade collapses

00:24:20.059 --> 00:24:23.599
on you. And now it's a whole new ballgame. or

00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:26.779
the transitions that we're seeing between structure

00:24:26.779 --> 00:24:30.500
fires or urban fires and wildland fires. Well,

00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:33.759
now with 40 % of the homes being in the wildland

00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:36.880
-urban interface, a structure fire can quickly

00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:39.660
become a wildfire, and a wildfire can quickly

00:24:39.660 --> 00:24:42.599
create a structure -to -structure conflagration,

00:24:42.779 --> 00:24:46.900
which we unfortunately call or mistakenly call

00:24:46.900 --> 00:24:53.640
wildfires. Downtown Los Angeles is not. a wildland

00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:56.680
environment. It's an urban environment. Even

00:24:56.680 --> 00:24:59.839
worse, it's a suburban environment. And when

00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:03.500
a fire triggers through there, we categorize

00:25:03.500 --> 00:25:06.819
the type of fire based on what started it, which

00:25:06.819 --> 00:25:11.200
is really not helpful information. So if a nearby

00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:14.019
wildland fire started it, we say, well, a wildfire

00:25:14.019 --> 00:25:17.740
is driving through the city. If a trash fire

00:25:17.740 --> 00:25:21.099
started it, we don't characterize it. We just

00:25:21.099 --> 00:25:24.109
say it's a fire. But it really doesn't matter

00:25:24.109 --> 00:25:26.029
what the ignition source is when you have a structure

00:25:26.029 --> 00:25:27.769
to structure fire, that's what you're fighting.

00:25:28.289 --> 00:25:32.130
So when you call it a wildfire, that makes people

00:25:32.130 --> 00:25:34.990
want to respond to it with wildfire tactics,

00:25:35.190 --> 00:25:37.529
personnel and equipment, which are completely

00:25:37.529 --> 00:25:41.130
unsuited to structure to structure complication.

00:25:41.890 --> 00:25:45.710
So this leaves people trying to fight a fire

00:25:45.710 --> 00:25:49.119
that they have misclassified. and therefore approach

00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:53.099
incorrectly with the results that you see. You

00:25:53.099 --> 00:25:55.180
know, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of homes

00:25:55.180 --> 00:26:00.039
lost. Because the structure fire, people are

00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:02.259
thinking, well, it's not a building fire. The

00:26:02.259 --> 00:26:03.799
wildland people are thinking, well, it's not

00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:07.859
really a wildland fire. So nature wins by lobbing

00:26:07.859 --> 00:26:10.160
the ball right between the two areas of responsibility

00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:12.880
and each thinking, oh, I thought you had that

00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:17.160
shot. So we really need a new approach to...

00:26:17.339 --> 00:26:20.900
It's a conflagration attack, which should largely

00:26:20.900 --> 00:26:25.660
be focused on prevention. However, I lived in

00:26:25.660 --> 00:26:27.160
the States long enough to know that the United

00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:30.660
States is not a prevention culture. There's no

00:26:30.660 --> 00:26:33.359
money for prevention, whether it's health care,

00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:36.460
fire prevention, anything else. But there is

00:26:36.460 --> 00:26:41.460
unlimited money for response. So unfortunately,

00:26:41.740 --> 00:26:44.200
I think we're going to have a better chance of

00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:46.759
dealing with these fires if we developed. better

00:26:46.759 --> 00:26:50.400
response capabilities simply because i think

00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:52.240
that prevention while it may be a better choice

00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:54.799
is just not a direction that americans are going

00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:57.839
to go in people won't go outside and pick up

00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:00.099
their leaves they won't clean the gutters they

00:27:00.099 --> 00:27:03.950
won't clear that zero to five foot space They

00:27:03.950 --> 00:27:06.509
won't participate in programs actively with their

00:27:06.509 --> 00:27:10.049
neighbors to create safer communities. These

00:27:10.049 --> 00:27:11.769
are all things that community risk reduction

00:27:11.769 --> 00:27:14.829
people know are effective or would be effective,

00:27:14.990 --> 00:27:18.430
but such an uphill battle to get people to change

00:27:18.430 --> 00:27:21.289
their habits and be proactive and very little

00:27:21.289 --> 00:27:26.089
funding for that. So that's where we are, James.

00:27:27.710 --> 00:27:31.049
In your research, being worldly and again in

00:27:31.049 --> 00:27:35.910
the science, space, are there areas in the world

00:27:35.910 --> 00:27:40.509
where they are able to to story tell the importance

00:27:40.509 --> 00:27:42.470
of that? And there is a lot more community involvement

00:27:42.470 --> 00:27:45.589
that results in less loss of homes and life during

00:27:45.589 --> 00:27:48.970
some of these wildfires. You know, Europe is

00:27:48.970 --> 00:27:52.849
certainly more advanced on that. If you've ever

00:27:52.849 --> 00:27:54.869
driven or flown across the United States, you'll

00:27:54.869 --> 00:28:00.930
see we have vast areas. of unused space. A fire

00:28:00.930 --> 00:28:03.849
in Phoenix is not going to impact a fire in Flagstaff

00:28:03.849 --> 00:28:06.750
because things are so spread out. So you might

00:28:06.750 --> 00:28:08.490
lose a city, but you're not going to lose a nation.

00:28:08.990 --> 00:28:12.230
In Europe, the villages are very close together.

00:28:13.430 --> 00:28:17.789
They're stacked fairly contiguously. The buildings

00:28:17.789 --> 00:28:21.150
are close together. And so when a fire starts,

00:28:21.369 --> 00:28:23.509
if you don't stop it, you'll not only lose that

00:28:23.509 --> 00:28:25.369
city, you'll lose all the cities downwind of

00:28:25.369 --> 00:28:30.140
it. So they're very proactive in terms of what

00:28:30.140 --> 00:28:34.019
they can do to prevent fire from starting and

00:28:34.019 --> 00:28:37.279
spreading. And they're very proactive in how

00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:40.359
they respond to fires as well. So there are certainly

00:28:40.359 --> 00:28:43.359
models out there for how that can be done. But

00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:47.900
necessity being the most important teacher, the

00:28:47.900 --> 00:28:50.240
lesson's gone to the people who need it, and

00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:52.539
it has been lost on the people who didn't need

00:28:52.539 --> 00:28:55.170
it. In the United States, we haven't needed that

00:28:55.170 --> 00:28:59.769
so much because of the space between areas. Well,

00:28:59.789 --> 00:29:01.430
we're going to get to the technology that you

00:29:01.430 --> 00:29:03.509
developed in a little bit. What was funny on

00:29:03.509 --> 00:29:06.630
this, going back to the ancient ways, I had Jason

00:29:06.630 --> 00:29:09.309
Ramos on the show and he's a smoke diver and

00:29:09.309 --> 00:29:13.150
also developer as well. And one of the biggest

00:29:13.150 --> 00:29:16.009
innovations that he said that he's seen recently

00:29:16.009 --> 00:29:20.680
is the use of donkeys. I'm sorry, goats, to literally

00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:23.880
graze the areas that would have been in a high

00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:26.180
fuel load. And again, now here we are circling

00:29:26.180 --> 00:29:28.619
back to ancient times where I'm sure whether

00:29:28.619 --> 00:29:31.220
it was Native Americans or other places in the

00:29:31.220 --> 00:29:33.200
world that they, of course, would have, you know,

00:29:33.220 --> 00:29:36.859
if that was used as grazing, then they would

00:29:36.859 --> 00:29:39.119
know they would be relatively safe from a wildfire

00:29:39.119 --> 00:29:41.980
risk back then. Right. And so if you were to

00:29:41.980 --> 00:29:44.180
look at the budget for, let's say, California.

00:29:44.820 --> 00:29:48.759
It continues to have the worst fires in the U

00:29:48.759 --> 00:29:53.799
.S. How much money was spent on one firehawk

00:29:53.799 --> 00:29:58.619
helicopter versus a goat grazing program? Goat

00:29:58.619 --> 00:30:00.680
grazing is still considered an experimental thing

00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:05.099
that's done by a fringe community and not at

00:30:05.099 --> 00:30:07.559
all funded. And yet, you know, there's $30 million

00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:10.150
when they want to buy a new helicopter. which

00:30:10.150 --> 00:30:13.150
is grounded, by the way, during wind -driven

00:30:13.150 --> 00:30:15.269
fires, which is when you need the most. So they've

00:30:15.269 --> 00:30:17.789
invested the most money in the technology that's

00:30:17.789 --> 00:30:25.710
the most frail on game day. Absolutely. Well,

00:30:25.789 --> 00:30:28.250
let's dive into the movie world, and then we'll

00:30:28.250 --> 00:30:29.950
kind of circle around to the first responder

00:30:29.950 --> 00:30:32.509
professions. When you were in the school age,

00:30:32.750 --> 00:30:36.190
were you dreaming about going into special effects

00:30:36.190 --> 00:30:37.970
on the screen, or was there something else in

00:30:37.970 --> 00:30:43.359
your mind first? As into photography and first

00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:47.000
responder stuff, I worked as a medic at the New

00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:52.099
York City Marathon. I was a photographer, worked

00:30:52.099 --> 00:30:54.720
at a camera store, very interested in how we

00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:58.240
document the world around us. Because photographs

00:30:58.240 --> 00:31:02.039
allow you to preserve an instant in time and

00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:05.900
then to study it. Whereas a continuous flow of

00:31:05.900 --> 00:31:09.160
information allows for very little study. and

00:31:09.160 --> 00:31:11.400
therefore very little opportunity to learn from

00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:17.400
it so i was fascinated by that um and and of

00:31:17.400 --> 00:31:20.799
course i had never stopped nurturing the five

00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:23.480
-year -old boys infatuation with fire that that

00:31:23.480 --> 00:31:28.200
most boys could relate to so i had been given

00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:31.400
some early advice from my dad who he said if

00:31:31.400 --> 00:31:32.819
you want to be happy figure out what you like

00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:34.960
to do first and then figure out how to get paid

00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:39.019
for it well My favorite toys were my chemistry

00:31:39.019 --> 00:31:41.960
set. And as far as I knew, its only purpose was

00:31:41.960 --> 00:31:46.000
for blowing things up. And then there were all

00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:49.720
the other chemicals that we threw out. But I

00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:52.599
got suspended from high school for a week once

00:31:52.599 --> 00:31:55.240
for doing the unauthorized experiment in the

00:31:55.240 --> 00:31:59.500
fume hood, where I was mixing sodium hydroxide

00:31:59.500 --> 00:32:01.680
with aluminum powder and then squirting it with

00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:05.170
water to set it on fire. And I thought that was

00:32:05.170 --> 00:32:07.049
fascinating, the idea that you could start a

00:32:07.049 --> 00:32:11.970
fire with a squirt gun. It was worth five days

00:32:11.970 --> 00:32:16.049
of dismissal or whatever that was, suspension,

00:32:16.490 --> 00:32:22.130
in order to see that lesson. And the capability

00:32:22.130 --> 00:32:26.670
of fire always fascinated me and eventually led

00:32:26.670 --> 00:32:29.329
me to become a pyrotechnician in the film industry.

00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:34.160
So walk me through that path. I went to drama

00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:36.400
school. Very long story, very short. I went because

00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:38.400
I was... trying to be close to my girlfriend

00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:40.700
at the time. So I got into drama school. I am

00:32:40.700 --> 00:32:43.380
hands down the worst actor on planet earth, but

00:32:43.380 --> 00:32:45.519
I found myself, I was good at the stage fight

00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:47.299
and I was a martial artist. So the stunt side

00:32:47.299 --> 00:32:50.740
started to kind of form. Um, but when I, I wasn't

00:32:50.740 --> 00:32:53.119
a stunt man yet, I was just a actor, a terrible

00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:55.619
actor with good sword skills. So then I got into

00:32:55.619 --> 00:32:57.980
the real world and then it's that double -edged

00:32:57.980 --> 00:33:00.119
sword of, you need an agent to get a job. You

00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:02.980
need a job to get an agent. So how, and then

00:33:02.980 --> 00:33:04.519
it was, you know, it was maddening. It was a

00:33:04.519 --> 00:33:06.460
spinning wheel until I found the world of stunts.

00:33:06.990 --> 00:33:09.829
How did you find yourself getting into the entertainment

00:33:09.829 --> 00:33:13.490
industry with that specific set of skills? Well,

00:33:13.589 --> 00:33:17.309
I was in college. I went to Columbia University

00:33:17.309 --> 00:33:20.069
in New York where I studied Shakespeare and 18th

00:33:20.069 --> 00:33:25.109
century British literature and freelanced as

00:33:25.109 --> 00:33:29.289
an EMT working on movie sets. I had started a

00:33:29.289 --> 00:33:32.890
company called Cinematics, providing paramedics

00:33:32.890 --> 00:33:37.480
and related medical services. two movie sets

00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:39.200
where dangerous stunts were being performed.

00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:42.180
So when they're doing a high fall airbag jump

00:33:42.180 --> 00:33:45.359
or they're doing a full body burn or a motorcycle

00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:49.359
stunt, production companies will, out of abundance

00:33:49.359 --> 00:33:53.119
of safety and legal requirement, have an ambulance

00:33:53.119 --> 00:33:55.839
standing by so that if people get hurt, they

00:33:55.839 --> 00:33:59.640
can be treated quickly. Treatment time is the

00:33:59.640 --> 00:34:02.839
difference between success or lack of success

00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:06.490
in the outcomes of an accident. So I had bought

00:34:06.490 --> 00:34:11.309
a small ambulance, used it on sets in New York

00:34:11.309 --> 00:34:15.489
City. And many times I would look at the stunt

00:34:15.489 --> 00:34:17.469
that they were setting up. And it was obvious

00:34:17.469 --> 00:34:19.690
that some critical aspect of physics had been

00:34:19.690 --> 00:34:23.449
ignored. That if you plan to jump your motorcycle

00:34:23.449 --> 00:34:26.489
up this ramp because you want to land it inside

00:34:26.489 --> 00:34:30.510
this window and you fail to account for the parabolic

00:34:30.510 --> 00:34:35.260
nature of. trajectories as a function of gravity,

00:34:35.420 --> 00:34:38.019
you can't simply line it up with the window and

00:34:38.019 --> 00:34:41.639
that's where you're going to go. So I would occasionally

00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:44.579
suggest to the stunt department, hey, if you

00:34:44.579 --> 00:34:48.079
move that ramp back a little bit, then you'll

00:34:48.079 --> 00:34:50.099
catch the downward arc and you'll end up in the

00:34:50.099 --> 00:34:53.300
window instead of near the window in the bricks.

00:34:53.559 --> 00:34:55.900
And that was frequently greeted with things like,

00:34:55.980 --> 00:34:57.840
hey, let's agree on a division of labor. We'll

00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:00.269
do the stunts. You drive the ambulance. So I

00:35:00.269 --> 00:35:02.050
said, all right, fine. I'll see you in the back

00:35:02.050 --> 00:35:04.030
of the ambulance in 10 minutes. When you hit

00:35:04.030 --> 00:35:06.909
the wall. Yeah. And invariably, off they go,

00:35:07.010 --> 00:35:10.550
take off, boom, two knees slamming into the windowsill,

00:35:10.650 --> 00:35:13.269
two broken legs in the back of the ambulance.

00:35:13.909 --> 00:35:16.570
And eventually, I was able to convince producers

00:35:16.570 --> 00:35:18.809
that if they would let me apply a little bit

00:35:18.809 --> 00:35:21.309
more science and a little bit less cowboyism,

00:35:21.389 --> 00:35:25.070
we could make filmmaking less expensive by reducing

00:35:25.070 --> 00:35:28.409
the number of injuries. And so that... created

00:35:28.409 --> 00:35:30.730
an opportunity for me to begin work as a stunt

00:35:30.730 --> 00:35:34.590
coordinator. And then I found out really that

00:35:34.590 --> 00:35:38.670
stunt people are really the human payload at

00:35:38.670 --> 00:35:41.630
the end of a physics experiment that's largely

00:35:41.630 --> 00:35:43.409
set up by the special effects department and

00:35:43.409 --> 00:35:46.949
that there was more science and less cowboyism

00:35:46.949 --> 00:35:50.269
in the effects department. So I transferred over

00:35:50.269 --> 00:35:53.869
and started to work my way up again from a special

00:35:53.869 --> 00:35:55.730
effects assistant to a special effects coordinator.

00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:01.500
largely with the help of a mentor. When I realized

00:36:01.500 --> 00:36:05.119
I wanted to do special effects, I started reading

00:36:05.119 --> 00:36:07.840
the credits of movies to see, well, who are the

00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:10.179
people in this business? And there was one name

00:36:10.179 --> 00:36:12.599
that had popped up repeatedly, a gentleman named

00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:15.559
Gary Zeller. He invented something called Zell

00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:22.079
Gel. And Zell Gel is the aqueous liquid gel that

00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:24.519
stunt people put on their bodies when they light

00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:28.889
themselves on fire. to act as a heat sink to

00:36:28.889 --> 00:36:32.510
catch heat so that you don't burn up. And he

00:36:32.510 --> 00:36:34.030
actually sold a lot of this to fire departments

00:36:34.030 --> 00:36:37.130
too, because in structural fires, people would

00:36:37.130 --> 00:36:39.789
burn their ears frequently. And they found that

00:36:39.789 --> 00:36:42.349
if they put a little bit of this Zell gel, fire

00:36:42.349 --> 00:36:47.170
stunt gel on, they could prevent that. So I called

00:36:47.170 --> 00:36:50.730
Gary out of the blue, you know, on a landline

00:36:50.730 --> 00:36:54.090
telephone. And after having him looked him up

00:36:54.090 --> 00:36:59.110
in the white pages, these are things that are

00:36:59.110 --> 00:37:01.889
no longer concepts. But I called Gary and I said,

00:37:01.949 --> 00:37:03.690
hey, Gary, this is Steve Wolf. You don't know

00:37:03.690 --> 00:37:08.730
me, but I'm a big fan of your work. And starting

00:37:08.730 --> 00:37:11.969
next Monday, I would like to come be your apprentice,

00:37:12.190 --> 00:37:15.789
carry your bags, help you wire up whatever you're

00:37:15.789 --> 00:37:18.769
wiring up, get your coffee. Whatever you need

00:37:18.769 --> 00:37:20.849
done, I'm there to help and I'm not looking for

00:37:20.849 --> 00:37:22.690
a job. You don't have to pay me. I just want

00:37:22.690 --> 00:37:25.650
the experience of working with you. And he said,

00:37:25.670 --> 00:37:28.130
fine, I'll be in the city next week. We're going

00:37:28.130 --> 00:37:30.429
to be setting up an episode of True Blue. We're

00:37:30.429 --> 00:37:32.690
going to launch the largest fireworks show ever

00:37:32.690 --> 00:37:34.849
launched inside an apartment building in New

00:37:34.849 --> 00:37:37.889
York City, all directed to the outside. It's

00:37:37.889 --> 00:37:41.730
supposed to be a fireworks warehouse explosion.

00:37:43.449 --> 00:37:46.800
So we're going to be wiring this up. If you have

00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:49.900
a hot melt glue gun, bring it. We're going to

00:37:49.900 --> 00:37:52.360
be going through a lot of stuff. So I showed

00:37:52.360 --> 00:37:57.019
up and kept showing up. And after a couple of

00:37:57.019 --> 00:37:58.980
weeks, Gary put me on payroll. We eventually

00:37:58.980 --> 00:38:03.000
formed a company together, producing special

00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:05.579
effects intensive ads and sequences for movies.

00:38:05.780 --> 00:38:09.980
We worked for Bruce Willis. We had a lot of good

00:38:09.980 --> 00:38:14.059
things going on. Because I was able to explain

00:38:14.059 --> 00:38:19.090
to Gary that... 200 people who just learned how

00:38:19.090 --> 00:38:22.489
to shoot, you know, use a camera or a sound machine

00:38:22.489 --> 00:38:26.489
filming this thing that you've spent 30 years

00:38:26.489 --> 00:38:30.750
learning how to do. You should be paid more than

00:38:30.750 --> 00:38:33.610
any of them. They're there. You can find another

00:38:33.610 --> 00:38:35.250
camera guy. You can find another sound guy. You

00:38:35.250 --> 00:38:37.969
can't find another pyro guy who knows how to

00:38:37.969 --> 00:38:42.389
make this effect happen. So I helped him raise

00:38:42.389 --> 00:38:44.869
his prices and we started working together. And

00:38:44.869 --> 00:38:49.849
then one day he got a phone call from Tom Cruise's

00:38:49.849 --> 00:38:51.690
production company. They were going to do a movie

00:38:51.690 --> 00:38:56.230
called The Firm shooting in Memphis. And he answered

00:38:56.230 --> 00:38:57.670
the phone and he just handed it to me. And he

00:38:57.670 --> 00:39:01.949
said, this one's for you. And that was my first

00:39:01.949 --> 00:39:06.329
job as the special effects coordinator. So that

00:39:06.329 --> 00:39:08.670
was after three years of interning. He thought

00:39:08.670 --> 00:39:10.949
that I was ready to do that. And he was ready

00:39:10.949 --> 00:39:13.219
to get out of the business because. You can only

00:39:13.219 --> 00:39:15.280
spend so much of your life trying to create entertainment

00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:20.239
for people. If you have legitimate science chops,

00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:23.039
eventually you want to use them for something

00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:26.539
good, not just to watch people shoot each other

00:39:26.539 --> 00:39:29.280
up in a movie for an hour and a half. So he moved

00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:32.659
off into working in environmental science, developing

00:39:32.659 --> 00:39:36.809
polymeric roof coatings for... you know, better

00:39:36.809 --> 00:39:40.429
UV rejection on structures, figuring out how

00:39:40.429 --> 00:39:44.050
to use the 250 ,000 tires that we generate every

00:39:44.050 --> 00:39:48.349
day in America for housing, you know, and a lot

00:39:48.349 --> 00:39:51.309
of things that were good that, you know, I had

00:39:51.309 --> 00:39:53.889
to get my career in first before I could turn

00:39:53.889 --> 00:39:57.289
around to doing something good. But he really

00:39:57.289 --> 00:39:59.809
created that opportunity for me. And that was

00:39:59.809 --> 00:40:03.599
such an important lesson. that I think for other

00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:04.840
people who want to know, how do you get into

00:40:04.840 --> 00:40:08.539
the business? How do you get your break? You

00:40:08.539 --> 00:40:12.920
make it by showing up. If you keep showing up

00:40:12.920 --> 00:40:15.619
and you're not a pain in the neck and you provide

00:40:15.619 --> 00:40:17.719
some value to the people around you, they'll

00:40:17.719 --> 00:40:20.500
hire you. You're not going to get into the film

00:40:20.500 --> 00:40:22.539
industry by going to film school. You're not

00:40:22.539 --> 00:40:24.380
going to get into stunt work by going to stunt

00:40:24.380 --> 00:40:27.679
school. People hire people who they know, like,

00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:30.739
and trust. If you don't take the time to get

00:40:30.739 --> 00:40:32.860
to know people and have them like you and trust

00:40:32.860 --> 00:40:35.320
you, it's going to be a hard shot at getting

00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:38.840
in. Absolutely. That's how I got my first stunt

00:40:38.840 --> 00:40:40.860
job. I was traveling with my girlfriend at the

00:40:40.860 --> 00:40:43.219
time and we were in Australia and Universal Studios

00:40:43.219 --> 00:40:45.880
Japan was looking for everyone. They were opening

00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:48.719
a theme park from scratch and it was about showing

00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:51.340
up. happened to have the skill set, but also

00:40:51.340 --> 00:40:54.639
look like Robert Patrick from T2. So between

00:40:54.639 --> 00:40:57.039
those two, you know, that was it. I didn't have

00:40:57.039 --> 00:40:59.119
stunt school. I had martial arts. I had stunt

00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:01.639
training as far as the sword work, but that really

00:41:01.639 --> 00:41:03.699
wasn't needed for this particular role. You just

00:41:03.699 --> 00:41:06.320
needed to be, you know, a physical actor and

00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:09.340
have the right face basically. So yeah, if I'd

00:41:09.340 --> 00:41:11.179
never shown up for that interview, I probably

00:41:11.179 --> 00:41:12.760
would never have become a stunt man in the first

00:41:12.760 --> 00:41:15.840
place. Right. Yeah. This is something that's

00:41:15.840 --> 00:41:17.860
really been hard for me to explain to people

00:41:17.860 --> 00:41:20.949
that Jobs are not awarded over the internet.

00:41:21.269 --> 00:41:23.389
Jobs aren't awarded to people who email their

00:41:23.389 --> 00:41:25.650
resume in. They're given to people to show up

00:41:25.650 --> 00:41:27.710
and put their face in front of the other face.

00:41:29.550 --> 00:41:31.809
You talked about, you know, you need an agent

00:41:31.809 --> 00:41:33.369
to get work and you can't get work if you don't

00:41:33.369 --> 00:41:36.250
have an agent. The catch -22 there, you know,

00:41:36.250 --> 00:41:40.309
I got acting and stunt work in New York in my

00:41:40.309 --> 00:41:44.150
late 20s by putting my face in the agent's office

00:41:44.150 --> 00:41:47.480
every single day. print your headshots, print

00:41:47.480 --> 00:41:51.559
your resume, walk out there. And if you're standing

00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:53.360
in front of the person when their phone rings,

00:41:53.480 --> 00:41:56.019
hey, we need a guy to do X, Y, Z. Hey, Wolf,

00:41:56.079 --> 00:41:57.659
you want to try doing this? I just got a call,

00:41:57.780 --> 00:42:00.179
right? That's how you get the work. They're not

00:42:00.179 --> 00:42:03.039
going to go through their Rolodex or their files

00:42:03.039 --> 00:42:04.639
and happen to say, oh, look, this guy would be

00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:06.539
really great for that. Like people are always

00:42:06.539 --> 00:42:08.840
doing the easiest thing and the easiest things

00:42:08.840 --> 00:42:11.380
to put the person to work who's standing right

00:42:11.380 --> 00:42:15.710
in front of you. Talk to me about. the element

00:42:15.710 --> 00:42:18.889
of being unorthodox as well when i started the

00:42:18.889 --> 00:42:20.989
podcast you know there were even though it was

00:42:20.989 --> 00:42:22.829
pretty early days it was you know eight and a

00:42:22.829 --> 00:42:25.630
half years ago now but um yeah you could go on

00:42:25.630 --> 00:42:27.150
there and say this is how to start a podcast

00:42:27.150 --> 00:42:28.829
this is how to do this this is how to do that

00:42:28.829 --> 00:42:31.050
and i looked at it and go yeah i'm just going

00:42:31.050 --> 00:42:32.590
to do it my way and you know it's either going

00:42:32.590 --> 00:42:34.710
to work or it's not going to work but you know

00:42:34.710 --> 00:42:36.670
i know that i want to do long form you know there

00:42:36.670 --> 00:42:38.050
was even then they were talking about if you

00:42:38.050 --> 00:42:39.929
just do short ones you can put all this sponsorship

00:42:39.929 --> 00:42:41.289
all over it and i'm like well i'm not trying

00:42:41.289 --> 00:42:44.269
to make money from it i'm trying to help people.

00:42:44.389 --> 00:42:49.210
So it's not about short, choppy, Insta -famous

00:42:49.210 --> 00:42:51.489
things. It's about a long, deep conversation.

00:42:52.110 --> 00:42:55.110
But it ended up working. It became unique. And

00:42:55.110 --> 00:42:57.269
I think even with the books and then the show

00:42:57.269 --> 00:42:59.389
that I'm getting ready to make, and I'm being

00:42:59.389 --> 00:43:02.070
very, very optimistic with that sentence, but

00:43:02.070 --> 00:43:04.809
it will happen. It's going to be something that

00:43:04.809 --> 00:43:06.530
people haven't seen before because it's coming

00:43:06.530 --> 00:43:09.280
from a different perspective. It sounds like

00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:11.000
you've had that element in the way that you've

00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:13.559
viewed everything from the initial stunt world

00:43:13.559 --> 00:43:16.219
to the innovation that you've just come up with.

00:43:16.300 --> 00:43:20.380
So what was it that made you stay your ground

00:43:20.380 --> 00:43:23.199
and be the quote unquote weirdo in that space?

00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:28.579
Well, I preface this by saying not to be dismissive

00:43:28.579 --> 00:43:31.920
of everything else in the world, but most things

00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:34.940
are done in a pretty crappy way. But people who

00:43:34.940 --> 00:43:37.000
don't put a lot of thought into them, this is

00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:40.699
simply true, right? And for almost any problem

00:43:40.699 --> 00:43:43.239
that you want to tackle, there's probably a better

00:43:43.239 --> 00:43:44.820
way to solve it than the way it's being solved

00:43:44.820 --> 00:43:49.019
now. So I remember in 1992, I saw a news story.

00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:51.340
Tom Brokaw was talking about how the United States

00:43:51.340 --> 00:43:54.679
had come in 19th out of 20th in international

00:43:54.679 --> 00:43:59.840
science testing standards. And I was incredulous.

00:43:59.900 --> 00:44:01.800
You know, as a six -year -old, I stared at my

00:44:01.800 --> 00:44:04.059
television. I watched a man walk on the moon,

00:44:04.219 --> 00:44:06.360
plant that American flag. And I was like, how

00:44:06.360 --> 00:44:08.400
can the country that put a man on the moon be

00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:11.179
failing basic science and math? And that really

00:44:11.179 --> 00:44:13.800
irked me. And I decided that I wanted to change,

00:44:13.880 --> 00:44:17.219
you know, how education was conducted in science.

00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:21.260
And so people would say, oh, well, you're going

00:44:21.260 --> 00:44:23.400
to have to go get a degree in education. Then

00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:25.219
you're going to have to get a master's in science

00:44:25.219 --> 00:44:28.099
education, early science teaching. And I thought,

00:44:28.179 --> 00:44:30.380
well, that's just being part of the system that

00:44:30.380 --> 00:44:34.500
doesn't work. Kids haven't gotten stupider. There's

00:44:34.500 --> 00:44:37.980
been no de -evolution. So if kids are failing

00:44:37.980 --> 00:44:39.980
science, it's because the schools are failing

00:44:39.980 --> 00:44:42.000
to teach it to them in a way that engages them.

00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:45.099
So I started this program called Science in the

00:44:45.099 --> 00:44:48.599
Movies that I ran for upwards of 20 years, where

00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:51.300
I took six movie stunts and special effects,

00:44:51.400 --> 00:44:53.239
which included lighting myself on fire, hanging

00:44:53.239 --> 00:44:55.440
the principal from the ceiling, filling the gymnasium

00:44:55.440 --> 00:44:59.099
with smoke, burning down a house, and all these

00:44:59.099 --> 00:45:02.019
things that I knew. would engage kids. And I

00:45:02.019 --> 00:45:04.119
used that as the basis for teaching them the

00:45:04.119 --> 00:45:06.639
science, the physics and the chemistry that makes

00:45:06.639 --> 00:45:09.199
these types of stunts and special effects possible.

00:45:09.780 --> 00:45:13.199
And, you know, within a decade, I had won the

00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:17.360
science teacher of the year award twice. Because

00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:19.639
this method, which had nothing to do with mainstream

00:45:19.639 --> 00:45:23.260
education, it was strictly an assembly that came

00:45:23.260 --> 00:45:28.800
in to schools was working. I was getting a lot

00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:30.860
of checks from schools in Texas where I was living

00:45:30.860 --> 00:45:35.159
at the time, which prompted the comptroller for

00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:37.760
the state of Texas to do an audit and say, why

00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:39.980
are all these companies writing checks to science

00:45:39.980 --> 00:45:43.119
in the movies? What's going on with that? And

00:45:43.119 --> 00:45:45.739
so she called me up and she said, what are you

00:45:45.739 --> 00:45:47.199
doing? Why are you getting all these checks?

00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:49.000
And I said, well, I'm just doing a science assemblies.

00:45:49.079 --> 00:45:50.960
She didn't tell me about it and told her what

00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:54.260
the shows were about. She did her research and

00:45:54.260 --> 00:45:57.320
she found that. In any two side -by -side schools,

00:45:57.719 --> 00:46:00.300
the one at which I had spoken was scoring 30

00:46:00.300 --> 00:46:05.019
% higher in their science exams. And it was simply

00:46:05.019 --> 00:46:08.300
the impact of one hour of inspiration. So you

00:46:08.300 --> 00:46:12.000
don't have to have amazing science education

00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:15.000
every single day. What you have to do is inspire

00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:17.760
people to want to learn on their own. And the

00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:21.099
impact of that is far greater than the impact

00:46:21.099 --> 00:46:24.380
that you could have in a diluted, long campaign.

00:46:25.230 --> 00:46:27.670
When I thought back to my own high school years,

00:46:27.829 --> 00:46:29.969
I remember very little of it, but I remember

00:46:29.969 --> 00:46:33.050
some of the speakers who came and did assemblies.

00:46:33.530 --> 00:46:37.230
And that really convinced me that the presence

00:46:37.230 --> 00:46:39.750
of someone who takes their time to come to your

00:46:39.750 --> 00:46:41.889
school because they're so excited about what

00:46:41.889 --> 00:46:46.829
they're doing and presents an assembly is really

00:46:46.829 --> 00:46:50.789
powerful. And so that was really the genesis

00:46:50.789 --> 00:46:52.769
of starting the Science in the Movies program,

00:46:52.989 --> 00:46:55.389
which brought me all around the world to Saudi

00:46:55.389 --> 00:46:58.590
Arabia, to Serbia, to keynote for the World Science

00:46:58.590 --> 00:47:04.130
Festival. And it was based on the idea that not

00:47:04.130 --> 00:47:06.630
every kid has to invent the light bulb. You only

00:47:06.630 --> 00:47:08.869
need one Thomas Edison for everyone to have light.

00:47:09.250 --> 00:47:12.070
And so science is not going to be everyone's

00:47:12.070 --> 00:47:14.949
thing. But if you can reach a few people and

00:47:14.949 --> 00:47:20.610
inspire them. To pursue that journey of learning

00:47:20.610 --> 00:47:23.809
how the world works, that could have monumental

00:47:23.809 --> 00:47:29.610
impact for everyone. So working as a pyrotechnician,

00:47:29.690 --> 00:47:34.269
people say, what have you lit on fire? I believe

00:47:34.269 --> 00:47:36.190
that the most important thing that you could

00:47:36.190 --> 00:47:39.750
ignite is a child's imagination. Because once

00:47:39.750 --> 00:47:42.809
that imagination takes off, especially with the

00:47:42.809 --> 00:47:45.949
resources kids have access to now on the Internet.

00:47:46.650 --> 00:47:48.309
Once they're curious about something, they will

00:47:48.309 --> 00:47:50.250
learn more about it than their teachers could

00:47:50.250 --> 00:47:53.730
ever teach. And they can become experts in fields

00:47:53.730 --> 00:47:58.409
that didn't exist. What do people make billions

00:47:58.409 --> 00:48:01.750
of dollars on now? Search. If you asked me in

00:48:01.750 --> 00:48:03.309
high school, what is search? You know, it's a

00:48:03.309 --> 00:48:06.469
game you play at a party, right? Hide and go

00:48:06.469 --> 00:48:11.309
seek. So, but you know, but because of Sergey

00:48:11.309 --> 00:48:14.210
Brin and his... His friends had this fascination

00:48:14.210 --> 00:48:16.230
with this thing. They created something that

00:48:16.230 --> 00:48:19.150
became the most dominant economic and knowledge

00:48:19.150 --> 00:48:23.329
force on the planet. So as much as humanity has

00:48:23.329 --> 00:48:26.929
done, there's still vastly more to do. There

00:48:26.929 --> 00:48:29.530
are entire realms of knowledge yet to be explored,

00:48:29.730 --> 00:48:34.190
to be invented. And going at it as an outsider

00:48:34.190 --> 00:48:36.530
gives you a unique advantage because you're not

00:48:36.530 --> 00:48:38.530
coming up with the same answer that everyone

00:48:38.530 --> 00:48:42.480
else came up with. I would never go to an engineering

00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:45.659
school to have them solve a problem because they

00:48:45.659 --> 00:48:47.760
all took the same classes, they all learned to

00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:49.800
solve a problem the same way, and they're all

00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:51.880
coming up with the same non -functional answers.

00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:55.619
So I think you're much better off working with

00:48:55.619 --> 00:48:57.780
people who are outside the system that have a

00:48:57.780 --> 00:49:01.320
unique perspective because it's that unique idea

00:49:01.320 --> 00:49:04.219
that's going to be different. I read something

00:49:04.219 --> 00:49:08.539
yesterday on LinkedIn about a... put out by a

00:49:08.539 --> 00:49:10.900
marketing girl who does marketing for a company

00:49:10.900 --> 00:49:14.980
in Israel. And she said, different is better

00:49:14.980 --> 00:49:19.440
than better. And I thought that was really interesting

00:49:19.440 --> 00:49:22.179
that when you're asked, you know, why is your

00:49:22.179 --> 00:49:25.519
product better? The answer is that it's different,

00:49:25.639 --> 00:49:28.860
that there are many ways to solve problems. Some

00:49:28.860 --> 00:49:31.719
of them might be better. But the fact that you're

00:49:31.719 --> 00:49:35.320
doing something different is really as important.

00:49:37.169 --> 00:49:40.030
Because as environmental conditions change, we

00:49:40.030 --> 00:49:42.190
don't know what's going to work. Is it better

00:49:42.190 --> 00:49:45.449
to be tall or short? I don't know. Depends what

00:49:45.449 --> 00:49:47.730
the food source is, how tall the grass is, and

00:49:47.730 --> 00:49:50.329
how much food is available. If you live in a

00:49:50.329 --> 00:49:52.130
place where food is scarce, it's better to be

00:49:52.130 --> 00:49:54.909
short. If you live in a place where you have

00:49:54.909 --> 00:49:56.630
to run from the animals, it's better to be tall.

00:49:57.030 --> 00:49:59.010
But we don't know what the environmental factors

00:49:59.010 --> 00:50:02.949
are going to be that decide what's the more survivable

00:50:02.949 --> 00:50:06.909
trait. until the environmental pressure is exerted.

00:50:07.190 --> 00:50:10.949
And it's the same thing knowledge -wise. We don't

00:50:10.949 --> 00:50:14.210
know what the best answer to a problem is going

00:50:14.210 --> 00:50:16.550
to be because we don't know what form the question

00:50:16.550 --> 00:50:19.170
is going to take. So as we look forward to things

00:50:19.170 --> 00:50:23.429
like wildfire, we know that the way we used to

00:50:23.429 --> 00:50:26.170
approach that problem is not the way we're going

00:50:26.170 --> 00:50:29.909
to successfully approach it in the future. What

00:50:29.909 --> 00:50:32.699
will be the best answer? The best way is try

00:50:32.699 --> 00:50:36.360
a lot of things and see what works. Absolutely.

00:50:36.519 --> 00:50:38.420
It's interesting, again, with that different

00:50:38.420 --> 00:50:41.219
perspective. This is what I've been trying to

00:50:41.219 --> 00:50:43.099
do in the fire service is getting to look at

00:50:43.099 --> 00:50:45.639
sleep deprivation and the work week. When it

00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:49.380
comes to cancer, it's all focused on carcinogens

00:50:49.380 --> 00:50:51.639
in our gear from the fires. And when it comes

00:50:51.639 --> 00:50:53.860
to mental health, it's, oh, it's what they saw.

00:50:53.940 --> 00:50:57.099
They had that call. And they're completely ignoring

00:50:57.099 --> 00:51:00.309
the fact that, you know, that. If you make the

00:51:00.309 --> 00:51:02.329
human resilient, they can actually deal with

00:51:02.329 --> 00:51:04.550
a lot of stuff. But if you break them down through

00:51:04.550 --> 00:51:07.889
sleep deprivation, we have these 56, 80 -hour

00:51:07.889 --> 00:51:10.489
work weeks if we're forced to work another shift.

00:51:10.989 --> 00:51:13.349
And it's not my work. I'm not a sleep medicine

00:51:13.349 --> 00:51:15.449
guru. I didn't discover this. I just found it

00:51:15.449 --> 00:51:17.949
on someone else's podcast and realized this is

00:51:17.949 --> 00:51:19.929
what we need to be talking about. But just like

00:51:19.929 --> 00:51:22.610
you said, it's different. And because of that,

00:51:22.710 --> 00:51:26.110
my profession is so resistant to something being

00:51:26.110 --> 00:51:27.929
different, whether it's a helmet or whether it's

00:51:27.929 --> 00:51:30.719
a shift. But that's our biggest enemy because,

00:51:30.880 --> 00:51:32.519
you know, as I said, ego is the enemy. We have

00:51:32.519 --> 00:51:35.059
to have the humility to go. Things have changed.

00:51:35.260 --> 00:51:38.059
Things are not the same as they used to be, you

00:51:38.059 --> 00:51:40.639
know, 80 years ago when we were just responding

00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:43.480
to maybe one fire a week. Now we're out there

00:51:43.480 --> 00:51:46.219
constantly. So taking a step back and going and

00:51:46.219 --> 00:51:48.699
considering that different way of looking at

00:51:48.699 --> 00:51:51.719
it is how we move forward. Yeah. I mean, our

00:51:51.719 --> 00:51:54.119
body has recognized that a cancer cell doesn't

00:51:54.119 --> 00:51:56.780
belong there and does its best job to attack

00:51:56.780 --> 00:52:00.389
it. George Carlin had a very funny routine about

00:52:00.389 --> 00:52:04.090
the immense military -like capabilities of the

00:52:04.090 --> 00:52:07.409
immune system. But you lose all that benefit

00:52:07.409 --> 00:52:09.550
when you don't have the sleep that's necessary

00:52:09.550 --> 00:52:12.789
for the immune system to work properly. And that

00:52:12.789 --> 00:52:16.409
leaves you vulnerable to a host of illnesses.

00:52:17.690 --> 00:52:20.500
Absolutely. Well, I want to get to the wildfire

00:52:20.500 --> 00:52:22.440
side, but just before we do, we kind of stopped

00:52:22.440 --> 00:52:25.619
at the movie. What was some of the most memorable

00:52:25.619 --> 00:52:28.059
stunts, special effects that you worked on in

00:52:28.059 --> 00:52:32.679
that space? Let's see. We burnt a house down

00:52:32.679 --> 00:52:39.760
for several. Burning houses down is fun, especially

00:52:39.760 --> 00:52:41.440
when you have the challenge that it's a historic

00:52:41.440 --> 00:52:43.039
house and you can't actually burn it down. Then

00:52:43.039 --> 00:52:44.400
you have to figure out how do you insulate the

00:52:44.400 --> 00:52:46.880
house from the inside, project flames out through

00:52:46.880 --> 00:52:49.869
the windows. create the illusion that you're

00:52:49.869 --> 00:52:53.730
burning a house down. Fire stunts have always

00:52:53.730 --> 00:52:58.929
been very interesting. It led me to believe that

00:52:58.929 --> 00:53:04.090
a stunt person is a scientist who believes so

00:53:04.090 --> 00:53:06.809
strongly in their theory that they're willing

00:53:06.809 --> 00:53:10.820
to risk their own life to prove it. And this

00:53:10.820 --> 00:53:12.739
is the case whether you're jumping off a building

00:53:12.739 --> 00:53:15.639
into an airbag, understanding the physics of

00:53:15.639 --> 00:53:19.119
deceleration and the human limits of deceleration,

00:53:19.380 --> 00:53:25.900
the difference between and splat, exposure to

00:53:25.900 --> 00:53:29.159
heat. It's one thing to invent a chemical that

00:53:29.159 --> 00:53:32.119
you think is going to act as an insulative barrier

00:53:32.119 --> 00:53:35.000
between you and the fuels. It's another thing

00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:36.679
to put the fuels on your body and light yourself

00:53:36.679 --> 00:53:41.059
on fire. As an astronomer, you could be vastly

00:53:41.059 --> 00:53:44.460
wrong about the speed at which the universe is

00:53:44.460 --> 00:53:46.880
expanding and still maintain your professorship.

00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:49.880
If you're a stunt person, you're wrong about

00:53:49.880 --> 00:53:52.800
the thermal dynamics of a given insulator or

00:53:52.800 --> 00:53:56.599
fuel, you get burned to death. So the consequences

00:53:56.599 --> 00:54:01.039
of being wrong are pretty high, both for yourself

00:54:01.039 --> 00:54:03.619
and the people you work with. But that doesn't

00:54:03.619 --> 00:54:09.349
mean that you aren't eager to try them. One of

00:54:09.349 --> 00:54:12.110
the real challenges in the film industry has

00:54:12.110 --> 00:54:14.690
been sameness, right? We want bullet hits. We

00:54:14.690 --> 00:54:16.809
want the car to flip. We want this. They want

00:54:16.809 --> 00:54:20.329
the same thing over and over again. They want

00:54:20.329 --> 00:54:21.630
what's new, but they don't know what the new

00:54:21.630 --> 00:54:25.130
thing is. So the challenge for me was to not

00:54:25.130 --> 00:54:27.809
get bored by doing the same thing the same way.

00:54:28.570 --> 00:54:35.210
And this led me to want to do the same stunt

00:54:35.210 --> 00:54:37.730
or special effect in a different manner every

00:54:37.730 --> 00:54:43.400
time. to make unavailable to me the answers I'd

00:54:43.400 --> 00:54:46.900
come up with before, but rather to use the knowledge

00:54:46.900 --> 00:54:49.179
I'd gained from those experiences to make it

00:54:49.179 --> 00:54:54.260
better every time. And I have a very short attention

00:54:54.260 --> 00:54:58.599
span for repetitive tasks. So when the task itself,

00:54:58.820 --> 00:55:01.820
when the outcome is repetitive, the method has

00:55:01.820 --> 00:55:05.940
to be novel. And that's been great because it

00:55:05.940 --> 00:55:08.960
led me to discover a lot of new, technologies

00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:14.639
in science that could then be applied to movies.

00:55:14.860 --> 00:55:18.559
And just to clarify that, movie stunts and special

00:55:18.559 --> 00:55:22.039
effects is not magic and it's not machismo or

00:55:22.039 --> 00:55:24.820
anything like that. A special effects coordinator

00:55:24.820 --> 00:55:27.539
is basically a handyman who happens to work on

00:55:27.539 --> 00:55:31.780
a movie set and knows how to do stuff. A stunt

00:55:31.780 --> 00:55:34.420
person is a professional athlete who happens

00:55:34.420 --> 00:55:37.889
to use their athletic in the service of the entertainment

00:55:37.889 --> 00:55:42.429
industry. So there's nothing miraculous about

00:55:42.429 --> 00:55:45.909
this. You know, you can't tell somebody, oh,

00:55:45.969 --> 00:55:48.469
could do a stunt for me. Like there's a lot of

00:55:48.469 --> 00:55:49.949
thought that goes, that'd be like telling an

00:55:49.949 --> 00:55:51.889
architect, oh, build a building for me. Okay,

00:55:51.909 --> 00:55:54.250
well, it's not that easy. There's a lot that

00:55:54.250 --> 00:55:57.050
goes into it. A lot of foresight and planning

00:55:57.050 --> 00:55:59.349
and materials and participation with a lot of

00:55:59.349 --> 00:56:03.380
other people. But always wanting to do something

00:56:03.380 --> 00:56:06.840
a new way has been really useful, particularly

00:56:06.840 --> 00:56:11.119
now as it applies to the way I envision wildfire

00:56:11.119 --> 00:56:15.539
management. What about near misses? We've had

00:56:15.539 --> 00:56:18.539
some tragedies on movie sets over the last, you

00:56:18.539 --> 00:56:20.440
know, since the beginning of stunts, really.

00:56:20.559 --> 00:56:23.659
But when you reflect now, were there any near

00:56:23.659 --> 00:56:27.159
misses where, you know, you realize that someone

00:56:27.159 --> 00:56:30.469
narrowly escaped something horrendous? Yeah,

00:56:30.550 --> 00:56:33.610
I was one of those people. I was standing by

00:56:33.610 --> 00:56:38.110
a car. The car got sideswiped. The transpo people

00:56:38.110 --> 00:56:41.230
hadn't put the car in park. They'd left it in

00:56:41.230 --> 00:56:44.889
neutral. And so when it got sideswiped, it came

00:56:44.889 --> 00:56:47.489
right for me. And I fell to the ground and curled

00:56:47.489 --> 00:56:51.530
up and let the car go over me, you know, hiding

00:56:51.530 --> 00:56:56.030
between the wheels. But everyone who saw that

00:56:56.030 --> 00:56:59.929
thought that I had been run over. Could not understand

00:56:59.929 --> 00:57:05.349
how I got up after. But, you know, I experienced

00:57:05.349 --> 00:57:09.570
that. I forgot what it's called, but the distortion

00:57:09.570 --> 00:57:12.869
of time that happens in an emergency where everything

00:57:12.869 --> 00:57:16.789
seems to slow down and that buys you the time

00:57:16.789 --> 00:57:19.610
to figure out how you're going to get yourself

00:57:19.610 --> 00:57:23.690
out of this situation. So I've had those and

00:57:23.690 --> 00:57:28.170
you'll learn a lot from them. Mostly you learn.

00:57:28.670 --> 00:57:32.550
to slow down and think through what you're doing

00:57:32.550 --> 00:57:38.349
much more before you do it. You know, there's

00:57:38.349 --> 00:57:40.869
a, on your keyboard, you have a one and you have

00:57:40.869 --> 00:57:44.150
an asterisk. And I've seen patches that are composed

00:57:44.150 --> 00:57:47.070
of the one and the asterisk. And it's just, it's

00:57:47.070 --> 00:57:52.510
a reminder. You only have one asterisk. So. It

00:57:52.510 --> 00:57:58.469
took me a moment. Yeah. Did you watch The Fall

00:57:58.469 --> 00:58:02.329
Guy, the new film? Loved it. Loved it. I watched

00:58:02.329 --> 00:58:04.230
the show when I was little and that absolutely

00:58:04.230 --> 00:58:06.389
had me wanting to be a stuntman, but I was on

00:58:06.389 --> 00:58:09.170
a farm in England at that time. It wasn't the

00:58:09.170 --> 00:58:12.769
natural path to become a stuntman, but then obviously

00:58:12.769 --> 00:58:15.690
I ended up getting into the industry. And it's

00:58:15.690 --> 00:58:18.150
kind of sad because as we progress through, you

00:58:18.150 --> 00:58:21.780
see now CGI. being used for so much and you've

00:58:21.780 --> 00:58:24.440
got these stunt robots that you know fall hilariously

00:58:24.440 --> 00:58:28.659
and fail um but there's no substitute at times

00:58:28.659 --> 00:58:31.380
of course there's it's great if you can you know

00:58:31.380 --> 00:58:33.780
completely reduce the risk of someone if they're

00:58:33.780 --> 00:58:35.860
doing you know some of these descender falls

00:58:35.860 --> 00:58:37.699
and things that are replacing a traditional high

00:58:37.699 --> 00:58:41.059
fall but there's definitely a detriment too on

00:58:41.059 --> 00:58:44.440
screen and the moment a cgi is recognized it

00:58:44.440 --> 00:58:46.659
pulls you it snatches you from the story then

00:58:46.659 --> 00:58:49.920
yes and i loved the fact that the fall guy paid

00:58:49.920 --> 00:58:52.940
tribute to the original stunts and you had, you

00:58:52.940 --> 00:58:55.780
know, this record -breaking car jump and this

00:58:55.780 --> 00:58:58.500
incredible high fall. So what is your perspective

00:58:58.500 --> 00:59:02.460
of that line between the danger of a real stunt

00:59:02.460 --> 00:59:06.900
and maybe the kind of the lag in technology to

00:59:06.900 --> 00:59:10.099
truly, truly replace it at the moment? Yeah,

00:59:10.099 --> 00:59:12.239
well, it's certainly not anywhere near ready

00:59:12.239 --> 00:59:17.539
to replace it, except in a jarring way. uh that

00:59:17.539 --> 00:59:19.579
pulls you out of the story so i don't think we're

00:59:19.579 --> 00:59:23.320
in any danger of that but you know people said

00:59:23.320 --> 00:59:25.239
why why do you why are you blowing up cars in

00:59:25.239 --> 00:59:26.639
real life why aren't you just doing that with

00:59:26.639 --> 00:59:29.360
cgi say well because i could show up on set at

00:59:29.360 --> 00:59:32.199
eight o 'clock i could blow up that car 30 times

00:59:32.199 --> 00:59:36.539
before lunch and by noon the director can choose

00:59:36.539 --> 00:59:38.820
the best part of each explosion and piece it

00:59:38.820 --> 00:59:41.679
together and they're done it would take more

00:59:41.679 --> 00:59:45.699
than three hours just Explain to the CGI people

00:59:45.699 --> 00:59:48.360
what you're trying to do, let alone set it up

00:59:48.360 --> 00:59:51.079
all on the computers, let alone two weeks on

00:59:51.079 --> 00:59:53.159
a render farm where it's rendering every frame

00:59:53.159 --> 00:59:56.900
and every pixel. So it's not only not an efficient

00:59:56.900 --> 01:00:00.559
way to do things, it's not a good way to do them.

01:00:01.880 --> 01:00:05.599
It takes a long time. And then if the director

01:00:05.599 --> 01:00:08.139
doesn't like it, three more weeks back on the

01:00:08.139 --> 01:00:13.719
render farm. Really, do we need to use computers

01:00:13.719 --> 01:00:17.699
for pixelating flame progression or blades of

01:00:17.699 --> 01:00:22.559
grass moving? It's silliness. Point a fan at

01:00:22.559 --> 01:00:27.099
the grass and film it blowing. So the problem

01:00:27.099 --> 01:00:30.219
largely is really as a function, as you were

01:00:30.219 --> 01:00:32.760
speaking earlier about the games kids play when

01:00:32.760 --> 01:00:36.239
they grow up, that you and I grew up playing

01:00:36.239 --> 01:00:40.039
physical games, learning how the world... works

01:00:40.039 --> 01:00:42.420
from a physics standpoint and how we interrelate

01:00:42.420 --> 01:00:46.719
with it. But now people grow up and all their

01:00:46.719 --> 01:00:51.079
games are played with their thumbs. And so their

01:00:51.079 --> 01:00:54.119
bias is to think that software is the solution

01:00:54.119 --> 01:00:59.280
to everything. But you couldn't figure out how

01:00:59.280 --> 01:01:02.159
to change an outlet or how to lift something

01:01:02.159 --> 01:01:06.820
with a pulley. There's so many basic science,

01:01:06.900 --> 01:01:10.460
physics concepts that are so... necessary every

01:01:10.460 --> 01:01:15.340
day that kids have no idea how they work. I am

01:01:15.340 --> 01:01:17.239
absolutely sure that if I brought a pulley into

01:01:17.239 --> 01:01:19.460
a classroom with kids right now, they'd have

01:01:19.460 --> 01:01:24.519
no idea what it was. Let alone that Archimedes

01:01:24.519 --> 01:01:29.000
invented it 2 ,500 years ago and what its function

01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:32.539
is. I said, well, you might need this if you

01:01:32.539 --> 01:01:34.340
wanted to change the engine in a car. And they're

01:01:34.340 --> 01:01:35.739
like, well, why would I need to do that? Just

01:01:35.739 --> 01:01:39.780
bring it back to the Tesla shop. We needed to

01:01:39.780 --> 01:01:41.440
be a firefighter. You're going to rescue someone

01:01:41.440 --> 01:01:43.739
off the side of a building. Right, exactly. You

01:01:43.739 --> 01:01:45.139
need to understand what the tensile strength

01:01:45.139 --> 01:01:47.579
properties of the rope are, what the flammability

01:01:47.579 --> 01:01:50.019
properties of the rope are, what your own capabilities

01:01:50.019 --> 01:01:56.239
are. A lot, right? A lot of things that we think

01:01:56.239 --> 01:02:00.179
about that really aren't largely taught. But

01:02:00.179 --> 01:02:02.559
I think that kids who do have the benefit of

01:02:02.559 --> 01:02:06.239
being taught this way of thinking and how the

01:02:06.239 --> 01:02:11.179
physical world works. are in a pinch at a great

01:02:11.179 --> 01:02:14.840
advantage over the rest. Well, speaking of that,

01:02:14.860 --> 01:02:18.019
one more area before we go to the wild land specifically.

01:02:18.340 --> 01:02:20.559
I know you did a show on the Discovery Channel

01:02:20.559 --> 01:02:22.739
as well. So you've done this kind of in -person

01:02:22.739 --> 01:02:25.000
on the school side. How did you find yourself

01:02:25.000 --> 01:02:28.599
in the kind of pseudo myth -busting world teaching

01:02:28.599 --> 01:02:31.559
this on Discovery Channel? I've done several

01:02:31.559 --> 01:02:35.500
series for Discovery. I did a show called Houdini's

01:02:35.500 --> 01:02:40.510
Last Secret. where we recreated four of Houdini's

01:02:40.510 --> 01:02:44.989
most famous escapes, physically built them to

01:02:44.989 --> 01:02:47.489
the best of our knowledge, replicating what Houdini

01:02:47.489 --> 01:02:50.570
had created, and then had a magician escape from

01:02:50.570 --> 01:02:53.449
them. And that was interesting because if we

01:02:53.449 --> 01:02:55.550
don't really know how Houdini did these things,

01:02:55.670 --> 01:02:58.550
all we could do is our best guess and solve these

01:02:58.550 --> 01:03:00.849
problems the way we would. How would we just

01:03:00.849 --> 01:03:03.349
figure out how to get immersed in a tank of water

01:03:03.349 --> 01:03:06.539
and escape? Catch a bullet with your teeth or

01:03:06.539 --> 01:03:10.400
these things that he did, which were illusions,

01:03:10.599 --> 01:03:12.900
but we had to figure out how to do them our way.

01:03:13.820 --> 01:03:18.940
That was fun science. I did a show called What

01:03:18.940 --> 01:03:21.460
Destroyed the Hindenburg, where the Discovery

01:03:21.460 --> 01:03:24.420
Channel gave us the budget to replicate three

01:03:24.420 --> 01:03:28.139
10th scale Hindenburgs. And when normally we

01:03:28.139 --> 01:03:29.719
would say 10th scale, that's got to be tiny.

01:03:30.119 --> 01:03:33.400
A 10th scale Hindenburg is 14 feet tall and 80

01:03:33.400 --> 01:03:36.460
feet long. Oh, wow. I was thinking much more

01:03:36.460 --> 01:03:40.199
than that. Yeah, no, it was able to lift me.

01:03:40.260 --> 01:03:43.480
I could easily fly on our replicas. And they

01:03:43.480 --> 01:03:45.320
were filled with hydrogen, just like the original

01:03:45.320 --> 01:03:48.679
was. And then what we did is we destroyed each

01:03:48.679 --> 01:03:54.019
one by implementing one of the three most common

01:03:54.019 --> 01:03:58.460
theories of how the Hindenburg blew up. And then

01:03:58.460 --> 01:04:00.780
we compared our footage to the archival footage

01:04:00.780 --> 01:04:06.099
of the actual disaster. And then we were able

01:04:06.099 --> 01:04:09.340
to conclude that the method of destroying it,

01:04:09.360 --> 01:04:11.840
the method of igniting it, that produced a result

01:04:11.840 --> 01:04:15.639
that looked closest to the real thing, was most

01:04:15.639 --> 01:04:19.380
likely the way it happened. What was that point

01:04:19.380 --> 01:04:25.119
in failure? Hubris. It was the Nazis who had

01:04:25.119 --> 01:04:31.199
taken over the construction of the dirigible.

01:04:33.469 --> 01:04:36.030
Thinking that because they had a superior intellect,

01:04:36.389 --> 01:04:39.909
they would be able to master this incredibly

01:04:39.909 --> 01:04:43.449
flammable hydrogen gas while the rest of this

01:04:43.449 --> 01:04:46.869
inferior mortals would simply be consumed by

01:04:46.869 --> 01:04:51.389
it. But they knew better. And so they thought

01:04:51.389 --> 01:04:54.530
they could do it. They were told to use rubber

01:04:54.530 --> 01:04:57.420
or vinyl for containing the hydrogen. But the

01:04:57.420 --> 01:05:00.239
only source of that was the Goodyear plant in

01:05:00.239 --> 01:05:02.000
the United States. Knowing that they were about

01:05:02.000 --> 01:05:04.179
to go to war with the US, they decided not to

01:05:04.179 --> 01:05:07.440
have the US as a vendor. And so they built the

01:05:07.440 --> 01:05:12.880
enclosure capsules for the hydrogen out of cotton,

01:05:13.059 --> 01:05:17.420
out of fine Egyptian cotton, which had to be

01:05:17.420 --> 01:05:21.449
kept wet in order to not leak. And yet they knew

01:05:21.449 --> 01:05:23.889
it still leaked a little bit anyway. So they

01:05:23.889 --> 01:05:25.969
had to carry way more hydrogen they would need

01:05:25.969 --> 01:05:28.510
so they could keep replacing it. And they carried

01:05:28.510 --> 01:05:35.429
water ballasts to counter the lift effect. So

01:05:35.429 --> 01:05:39.309
as they would lose lift by losing hydrogen, they

01:05:39.309 --> 01:05:44.210
would drop water. So it was this incredibly complex

01:05:44.210 --> 01:05:47.110
balancing act. And the fact that they were able

01:05:47.110 --> 01:05:49.070
to get it around the world several times and

01:05:49.070 --> 01:05:51.570
make some big international trips was really

01:05:51.570 --> 01:05:54.750
a tribute to their scientific ability. But you

01:05:54.750 --> 01:05:56.949
could only play with things like that for so

01:05:56.949 --> 01:06:00.070
long before they bite you. So they had built

01:06:00.070 --> 01:06:04.170
these ventilation shafts in between each of the

01:06:04.170 --> 01:06:07.789
14 donuts so that the excess hydrogen could escape.

01:06:10.590 --> 01:06:12.550
When the hydrogen entered those channels and

01:06:12.550 --> 01:06:14.389
would go up, it would create a vacuum at the

01:06:14.389 --> 01:06:17.070
bottom where fresh air was drawn in. So at the

01:06:17.070 --> 01:06:19.769
bottom of these ventilation shafts, you had pure

01:06:19.769 --> 01:06:22.809
air. And at the top, you had almost straight

01:06:22.809 --> 01:06:25.250
hydrogen. And then along the column, you had

01:06:25.250 --> 01:06:28.190
everything in between. And at a certain percentage

01:06:28.190 --> 01:06:36.269
point, a mix between hydrogen and air, you don't

01:06:36.269 --> 01:06:38.250
get a flammable effect. You get a detonation

01:06:38.250 --> 01:06:42.340
effect. So as this hydrogen mix was leaking across

01:06:42.340 --> 01:06:47.300
the top, you had an arcing effect where static

01:06:47.300 --> 01:06:50.420
discharge from air running across the skin would

01:06:50.420 --> 01:06:53.239
cause this coronal discharge from the tail. And

01:06:53.239 --> 01:06:56.460
when the stream of hydrogen gas reached that

01:06:56.460 --> 01:06:59.139
coronal discharge, it ignited it and created

01:06:59.139 --> 01:07:01.340
a fuel chain which chased down to the inside.

01:07:01.440 --> 01:07:06.500
When it hit that 37 % spot, it detonated and

01:07:06.500 --> 01:07:08.500
the whole thing was gone in less than a half

01:07:08.500 --> 01:07:11.360
a minute. But the opportunity to explore science

01:07:11.360 --> 01:07:14.880
like that, to have the budget for that, and not

01:07:14.880 --> 01:07:17.079
only to learn about how things like that happen,

01:07:17.179 --> 01:07:19.380
but to learn about it in a public forum where

01:07:19.380 --> 01:07:22.099
you get to share that with other people is really

01:07:22.099 --> 01:07:25.400
fascinating. So I've done several shows like

01:07:25.400 --> 01:07:28.239
that. And I think that's fascinating because

01:07:28.239 --> 01:07:30.860
I really think that the key to the future is

01:07:30.860 --> 01:07:35.929
inspiring kids to be curious about science. Absolutely.

01:07:36.090 --> 01:07:37.590
I mean, if you look, I've said this many times,

01:07:37.630 --> 01:07:39.769
you look at our news, you look at a lot of television,

01:07:39.949 --> 01:07:42.989
you look at even like the remaking of films that

01:07:42.989 --> 01:07:44.969
were already good from the 80s and 90s didn't

01:07:44.969 --> 01:07:47.849
need to be remade. It really is a dumbing down

01:07:47.849 --> 01:07:50.619
of creativity. You know, I think that where I'm

01:07:50.619 --> 01:07:53.800
seeing a beautiful kind of flourishing is in

01:07:53.800 --> 01:07:56.139
the world of documentaries and obviously podcasts

01:07:56.139 --> 01:07:59.280
too. But there is a hunger for learning and people

01:07:59.280 --> 01:08:01.739
are able to circumnavigate these kind of hurdles

01:08:01.739 --> 01:08:03.980
and barriers and get to the source. So whether

01:08:03.980 --> 01:08:07.000
they listen to, you know, horrible history on

01:08:07.000 --> 01:08:10.039
the podcast or, you know, the Discovery Channel

01:08:10.039 --> 01:08:12.219
or some, even, you know, our science channels,

01:08:12.300 --> 01:08:14.320
they started being about. crab fishermen and

01:08:14.320 --> 01:08:16.880
you know it became a soap opera rather than learning

01:08:16.880 --> 01:08:19.220
about science so i think that there is a hunger

01:08:19.220 --> 01:08:22.460
now and i think it's it's great to see this uh

01:08:22.460 --> 01:08:24.560
you know these things that you've done that have

01:08:24.560 --> 01:08:27.079
inspired kids but i think you're 100 right i

01:08:27.079 --> 01:08:29.800
think we have to remove that kind of idiocracy

01:08:29.800 --> 01:08:31.859
element that we really have been moving towards

01:08:31.859 --> 01:08:35.770
and get to who are the young innovators. And

01:08:35.770 --> 01:08:38.949
I worked on Idiocracy, okay? Lay off there. Oh,

01:08:38.949 --> 01:08:42.470
did you? That was so funny. I was seeing one

01:08:42.470 --> 01:08:44.289
of those videos on social media a while ago,

01:08:44.390 --> 01:08:47.069
and it was talking about the costume designer.

01:08:47.430 --> 01:08:50.069
And I think it was a female, and she was looking

01:08:50.069 --> 01:08:54.550
for a shoe that no one would ever wear because

01:08:54.550 --> 01:08:58.279
this is Idiocracy. And that shoe was Crocs. You

01:08:58.279 --> 01:09:01.380
look around now, everyone is in Crocs. So not

01:09:01.380 --> 01:09:03.800
only have we got, I would argue, the same kind

01:09:03.800 --> 01:09:06.859
of people in power, I mean, both sides of the

01:09:06.859 --> 01:09:09.680
aisle, and the dumbing down, you know, through

01:09:09.680 --> 01:09:13.199
tweets and texts and emojis of evil, simple,

01:09:13.300 --> 01:09:15.880
you know, communication, but even the damn shoes

01:09:15.880 --> 01:09:18.659
from that film are absolutely spot on. So it

01:09:18.659 --> 01:09:20.279
was supposed to be a comedy, ended up being a

01:09:20.279 --> 01:09:24.600
documentary, technically. Well, I think, unfortunately,

01:09:24.939 --> 01:09:28.479
social media in the way it's... consumed most

01:09:28.479 --> 01:09:35.220
often is bad for society. Not particularly because

01:09:35.220 --> 01:09:37.779
of the content itself, although there's not much

01:09:37.779 --> 01:09:40.000
to be learned from watching your grandparents

01:09:40.000 --> 01:09:44.180
dance, but really more from what it does to our

01:09:44.180 --> 01:09:47.880
attention span. As we shorten our attention spans,

01:09:48.079 --> 01:09:50.060
we shorten our ability to wrestle with problems.

01:09:50.739 --> 01:09:55.300
And unfortunately, tough problems require serious

01:09:55.300 --> 01:09:58.670
attention over a long period of time. You don't,

01:09:58.670 --> 01:10:02.449
for the most part, solve problems in 30 -second

01:10:02.449 --> 01:10:06.329
bytes. You solve them, for me, typically working

01:10:06.329 --> 01:10:09.170
in three -hour blocks over the course of years.

01:10:10.229 --> 01:10:14.029
And then you are able to make inroads on a serious

01:10:14.029 --> 01:10:17.350
problem. But if we deprive people of the ability

01:10:17.350 --> 01:10:20.189
to have an attention span, then we limit their

01:10:20.189 --> 01:10:24.260
ability to be effective. And I've seen this in

01:10:24.260 --> 01:10:26.420
myself. If you've got a busy mind, you can't

01:10:26.420 --> 01:10:28.859
critically think. And we saw it in COVID. I mean,

01:10:28.880 --> 01:10:30.920
no better example. You get everyone all scared

01:10:30.920 --> 01:10:34.220
and stressed out. Then they become vehemently

01:10:34.220 --> 01:10:36.220
opposed to whatever the other side is rather

01:10:36.220 --> 01:10:38.279
than standing in the middle and going, maybe

01:10:38.279 --> 01:10:40.180
we should make America healthier while we're

01:10:40.180 --> 01:10:42.939
going through this thing. So I've seen that.

01:10:43.119 --> 01:10:45.819
The Instagram, the TVs in every bar and restaurant,

01:10:45.899 --> 01:10:49.689
it's just this constant. stimulus. And when I've

01:10:49.689 --> 01:10:52.590
had my most, you know, inspiring moments is when

01:10:52.590 --> 01:10:54.550
I've been leaning into my meditation and I put

01:10:54.550 --> 01:10:57.149
my phone away and I'm walking my dog and, you

01:10:57.149 --> 01:10:59.289
know, trying to open that mind because there's,

01:10:59.289 --> 01:11:01.489
you know, all the great philosophers in the past

01:11:01.489 --> 01:11:04.750
were not having these aha moments between tweets.

01:11:04.930 --> 01:11:07.649
They were sitting, you know, pondering for a

01:11:07.649 --> 01:11:10.130
long, long time. You cannot ponder if your mind

01:11:10.130 --> 01:11:13.270
is busy. Right. You know, Einstein really popularized

01:11:13.270 --> 01:11:16.310
the idea of the thought experiment. Well, You

01:11:16.310 --> 01:11:18.050
can't have the thought experiment without having

01:11:18.050 --> 01:11:20.789
thought. And you can't think while you're constantly

01:11:20.789 --> 01:11:24.829
distracted. So to the degree that you are able

01:11:24.829 --> 01:11:27.949
to divorce yourself from social media and actually

01:11:27.949 --> 01:11:31.449
take a moment to let your mind wander and ponder,

01:11:31.609 --> 01:11:34.510
that really is, I think, the limiting factor

01:11:34.510 --> 01:11:36.970
in your ability to solve problems. COVID was

01:11:36.970 --> 01:11:40.329
great for me, by the way. I had the good fortune

01:11:40.329 --> 01:11:44.670
to be in a very remote location, 6 ,500 feet

01:11:44.670 --> 01:11:49.600
up. mountain overlooking Boulder with no neighbors,

01:11:49.720 --> 01:11:53.000
no distraction, no work to go to. And I took

01:11:53.000 --> 01:11:56.199
advantage of that quiet time to do some deeply

01:11:56.199 --> 01:12:00.739
reflective science work. And it was at that time

01:12:00.739 --> 01:12:02.779
that I took an idea that I had been carrying

01:12:02.779 --> 01:12:06.119
around for 10 years and translated into a patent

01:12:06.119 --> 01:12:10.640
for a product that I wanted to invent for fighting

01:12:10.640 --> 01:12:14.510
wildfire. So, and I know that in the normal busy

01:12:14.510 --> 01:12:16.930
pre -COVID or post -COVID world, I never would

01:12:16.930 --> 01:12:22.409
have had the time to have devoted to focus that

01:12:22.409 --> 01:12:28.220
type of continuous effort on this project. Absolutely.

01:12:28.279 --> 01:12:30.840
I wrote my first book during COVID. I happened

01:12:30.840 --> 01:12:32.939
to have started it right before and then it happened.

01:12:33.020 --> 01:12:34.619
And I was like, okay, well, this is good timing,

01:12:34.699 --> 01:12:36.539
I guess. I mean, it's horrible for everyone that

01:12:36.539 --> 01:12:38.159
lost people. And I'm not saying that at all.

01:12:38.220 --> 01:12:40.659
But if you're going to make the most of this

01:12:40.659 --> 01:12:43.159
isolation, then, you know, let's do something

01:12:43.159 --> 01:12:47.039
good with it. You talked about the innovation

01:12:47.039 --> 01:12:50.210
then. So walk me through. What made you even

01:12:50.210 --> 01:12:53.050
start pondering the wildland space? What was

01:12:53.050 --> 01:12:55.710
the problem that you were seeing? And then let's

01:12:55.710 --> 01:12:57.329
talk about the solution that you've created.

01:12:58.310 --> 01:13:00.310
Well, the problem is that the world is burning

01:13:00.310 --> 01:13:04.670
up because the physical conditions, regardless

01:13:04.670 --> 01:13:09.250
of how you attribute them, are hotter, drier,

01:13:09.250 --> 01:13:14.109
and windier. So lower moisture, more oxygen,

01:13:14.329 --> 01:13:19.279
and more heat. are three primary contributors

01:13:19.279 --> 01:13:24.520
to anything's flammability. Fire takes four things.

01:13:24.640 --> 01:13:26.319
You have to have fuel, you have to have oxygen,

01:13:26.539 --> 01:13:28.399
you have to have heat, you have to have a chemical

01:13:28.399 --> 01:13:32.319
reaction. So when the environment provides more

01:13:32.319 --> 01:13:36.500
of those things, you get more fire. Preventatively,

01:13:36.619 --> 01:13:38.479
when I lived in Austin, where the government

01:13:38.479 --> 01:13:40.840
doesn't get in your business so much, I would

01:13:40.840 --> 01:13:43.630
burn off my land a few times a year. So that

01:13:43.630 --> 01:13:46.789
if a wildfire encroached, my land had already

01:13:46.789 --> 01:13:49.210
burned and I didn't have to worry about the fire

01:13:49.210 --> 01:13:54.590
consuming it. And so I lit these wildfires, which

01:13:54.590 --> 01:13:58.949
are contained to my 22 acres, and I would manage

01:13:58.949 --> 01:14:01.829
the fire. And if the wind whipped up, the fire

01:14:01.829 --> 01:14:04.850
would become very hard to manage. And I didn't

01:14:04.850 --> 01:14:07.989
want to stop the burning process because I knew

01:14:07.989 --> 01:14:10.289
it was beneficial to the land and to safety.

01:14:10.939 --> 01:14:14.439
But I wanted to figure out how I could stay on

01:14:14.439 --> 01:14:17.699
top of the fire when the winds whipped up or

01:14:17.699 --> 01:14:22.159
conditions changed. So that started me thinking

01:14:22.159 --> 01:14:26.479
just from a personal use standpoint of what do

01:14:26.479 --> 01:14:30.659
we need in order to contain fire? I had worked

01:14:30.659 --> 01:14:35.279
as a volunteer firefighter, and I couldn't believe

01:14:35.279 --> 01:14:39.220
that. When we have a fire that risks structures,

01:14:39.520 --> 01:14:42.460
neighborhoods, communities, potential billions

01:14:42.460 --> 01:14:46.279
of dollars of damage, the tools that are issued

01:14:46.279 --> 01:14:48.859
to the firefighter are what I would characterize

01:14:48.859 --> 01:14:53.159
are medieval gardening tools. A rake, a hoe,

01:14:53.359 --> 01:14:56.079
a pick. You look really smart. You can have a

01:14:56.079 --> 01:15:02.920
chainsaw. But these tools are woefully inadequate

01:15:02.920 --> 01:15:08.399
compared to... the power of the fire and the

01:15:08.399 --> 01:15:10.260
dollar value of the destruction of the fire,

01:15:10.359 --> 01:15:14.539
not to mention the threat to life. So I couldn't

01:15:14.539 --> 01:15:17.619
believe that technology has advanced so far in

01:15:17.619 --> 01:15:21.220
so many other areas and not in fire suppression.

01:15:23.199 --> 01:15:26.380
So I asked the firefighters I was working with,

01:15:26.500 --> 01:15:29.460
if we actually wanted to stop this fire, what

01:15:29.460 --> 01:15:32.560
would we do? And they laughed and they said,

01:15:32.600 --> 01:15:37.350
well, it would take a hurricane. And so I took

01:15:37.350 --> 01:15:39.189
that literally. Okay, well, what size hurricane?

01:15:40.109 --> 01:15:43.449
What wind speed would be required? What water

01:15:43.449 --> 01:15:46.210
volume would be required? Because when James

01:15:46.210 --> 01:15:48.390
Cameron says, make a hurricane for me, I don't

01:15:48.390 --> 01:15:51.850
laugh. I say, okay, well, what do you need? How

01:15:51.850 --> 01:15:54.109
far do the winds have to blow? Do you need 100

01:15:54.109 --> 01:15:57.840
miles an hour? you know, 400 feet from the nozzle.

01:15:57.979 --> 01:16:00.800
Like, what is it exactly from a physics standpoint

01:16:00.800 --> 01:16:03.920
that you need to achieve this? And so I started

01:16:03.920 --> 01:16:05.460
to really pursue this with the firefighters.

01:16:06.140 --> 01:16:11.000
So firefighters respond to wildfires, but for

01:16:11.000 --> 01:16:14.060
the most part, the control of the fire is up

01:16:14.060 --> 01:16:17.000
to the wind. The wind controls the fire. And

01:16:17.000 --> 01:16:19.159
so I was just simply thinking in terms of hierarchy,

01:16:19.500 --> 01:16:22.579
if you want to control a wildfire, you have to

01:16:22.579 --> 01:16:25.029
control the wind. So I thought there was a lot

01:16:25.029 --> 01:16:26.810
of wisdom what they said, that you would need

01:16:26.810 --> 01:16:29.649
a hurricane, but I didn't dismiss the idea that

01:16:29.649 --> 01:16:32.430
we could bring the hurricane. And so this really

01:16:32.430 --> 01:16:35.329
led to the idea of creating a hurricane on wheels,

01:16:35.569 --> 01:16:39.989
where we could get massive, high -speed, high

01:16:39.989 --> 01:16:45.090
-volume airflow generated by jet engines, mount

01:16:45.090 --> 01:16:48.710
the jet engines on trucks, equip the jet engines

01:16:48.710 --> 01:16:51.890
with large tanks full of retardant. pump the

01:16:51.890 --> 01:16:54.350
retardant into the exhaust of the jet engine,

01:16:54.489 --> 01:16:57.850
and then use the jet engine to disperse the retardant

01:16:57.850 --> 01:17:01.909
with tremendous speed and force over large areas

01:17:01.909 --> 01:17:05.289
very quickly. And that, in my mind, would be

01:17:05.289 --> 01:17:07.550
a tool that could actually fight a big wildfire.

01:17:08.789 --> 01:17:12.350
That if you need a coverage rate of, let's say,

01:17:12.390 --> 01:17:15.890
50 gallons per acre of retardant, and you're

01:17:15.890 --> 01:17:18.069
pushing this thing out there with a 3 ,000 horsepower

01:17:18.069 --> 01:17:21.479
jet engine, You can cover 20 acres in a minute,

01:17:21.600 --> 01:17:24.439
which would mean that you could create a massive

01:17:24.439 --> 01:17:27.859
fire break using technology that has nothing

01:17:27.859 --> 01:17:30.100
to do with a rake, a hoe, a pick, or an ax, or

01:17:30.100 --> 01:17:34.279
a shovel. That we throw people at this problem

01:17:34.279 --> 01:17:38.960
with the same success that we throw the TSA at

01:17:38.960 --> 01:17:49.060
airline security. Not very effectively. It was

01:17:49.060 --> 01:17:51.500
a physical problem that was beyond human scale

01:17:51.500 --> 01:17:55.359
that was going to require large, powerful technology

01:17:55.359 --> 01:18:00.800
to get ahead of. And so there were really six

01:18:00.800 --> 01:18:04.439
or seven things that I thought needed to be done

01:18:04.439 --> 01:18:07.079
by this technology. We had to be able to create

01:18:07.079 --> 01:18:10.800
fuel breaks very quickly, not with vegetative

01:18:10.800 --> 01:18:14.279
removal, but with vegetation treatment, which

01:18:14.279 --> 01:18:17.119
is... to say we're leaving the fuel in place,

01:18:17.279 --> 01:18:19.560
we're just treating it chemically so that it's

01:18:19.560 --> 01:18:23.199
no longer available to interact with oxygen and

01:18:23.199 --> 01:18:26.979
create fire. We need to create evacuation routes

01:18:26.979 --> 01:18:29.119
or do what's called evacuation route hardening.

01:18:29.300 --> 01:18:31.680
Currently that's also done largely with vegetation

01:18:31.680 --> 01:18:34.739
removal. Basically these high -speed gardening

01:18:34.739 --> 01:18:38.560
crews push through areas chopping down the trees

01:18:38.560 --> 01:18:41.739
and other things that people find to make their

01:18:41.739 --> 01:18:44.649
communities attractive. So there's a lot of resistance

01:18:44.649 --> 01:18:48.590
to vegetation removal. But they, on a good day,

01:18:48.590 --> 01:18:52.850
could do a mile a day with a crew of 40 people

01:18:52.850 --> 01:18:56.170
and a big chipping operation in this. That's

01:18:56.170 --> 01:18:58.430
fine if you're an urban planner and you're thinking

01:18:58.430 --> 01:19:01.289
about how you're going to do 50 years of evacuation

01:19:01.289 --> 01:19:04.229
route hardening over the next four years. That's

01:19:04.229 --> 01:19:07.229
not an effective plan on the day when you see

01:19:07.229 --> 01:19:09.600
the ember starting to come across the hill. and

01:19:09.600 --> 01:19:10.939
you know people are going to need to get out,

01:19:10.979 --> 01:19:12.619
you don't want them to die in their cars the

01:19:12.619 --> 01:19:15.779
way they have in numerous fires, you have to

01:19:15.779 --> 01:19:17.100
figure out how are you going to make an evacuation

01:19:17.100 --> 01:19:20.720
route very quickly. By driving the jet engine

01:19:20.720 --> 01:19:23.579
at the vegetation on both sides and coating it

01:19:23.579 --> 01:19:26.020
with retardants, you can provide that gauntlet

01:19:26.020 --> 01:19:29.140
of safety. The next thing we have to do is asset

01:19:29.140 --> 01:19:31.180
protection. How are we going to keep the things

01:19:31.180 --> 01:19:33.939
that we love and that are insured from burning?

01:19:34.470 --> 01:19:37.529
And that's by laying a perimeter, a protective

01:19:37.529 --> 01:19:41.369
chemical barrier around them of retardant. This

01:19:41.369 --> 01:19:43.050
is not firefighting at this point, right? This

01:19:43.050 --> 01:19:45.529
is simply turning fuels into non -combustibles.

01:19:47.090 --> 01:19:51.729
We need to create safety zones. So when most

01:19:51.729 --> 01:19:53.550
people are leaving the fire, firefighters are

01:19:53.550 --> 01:19:56.189
showing up, right? Like they said in 9 -11, right?

01:19:56.229 --> 01:19:57.649
When everyone was running out, we were running

01:19:57.649 --> 01:20:02.869
in. So when fire teams aggregate at the site

01:20:02.869 --> 01:20:06.000
of a fire, They have to have an area where it's

01:20:06.000 --> 01:20:07.460
safe for them to be, and that's called a safety

01:20:07.460 --> 01:20:11.300
zone. If we can make that safety zone truly safe,

01:20:11.460 --> 01:20:16.460
it protects people. Those areas still typically

01:20:16.460 --> 01:20:20.319
can be overrun. So they look for blacktop or

01:20:20.319 --> 01:20:23.659
big parking lots or stuff where they stage all

01:20:23.659 --> 01:20:25.680
the equipment. But if we could surround those

01:20:25.680 --> 01:20:28.960
areas with retardant very quickly using the jet

01:20:28.960 --> 01:20:31.619
dispersion method, we could create a safety zone

01:20:31.619 --> 01:20:34.979
on the fly wherever. It was needed, not wherever

01:20:34.979 --> 01:20:37.960
it happened to be. The next thing firefighters

01:20:37.960 --> 01:20:40.920
need is escape routes. We're fighting the fire.

01:20:41.060 --> 01:20:45.239
The winds change. Something has gone south for

01:20:45.239 --> 01:20:48.020
us. We need to be able to get out. So you have

01:20:48.020 --> 01:20:54.399
to be able to build a fuel -stripped, chemically

01:20:54.399 --> 01:20:58.039
-treated path from the area of danger to the

01:20:58.039 --> 01:21:01.270
area of safety. A jet engine can do that. When

01:21:01.270 --> 01:21:03.449
you point the jet engine down, you can literally

01:21:03.449 --> 01:21:06.430
blow the fuels off the ground, the trees, the

01:21:06.430 --> 01:21:10.369
debris, the limbs, all the flammable vegetation.

01:21:11.329 --> 01:21:13.430
Hurricanes remove vegetation. We know that. If

01:21:13.430 --> 01:21:15.609
you've ever looked at footage from a hurricane,

01:21:15.750 --> 01:21:17.970
you'll see the trees are removed, the ground

01:21:17.970 --> 01:21:19.770
is removed, the buildings are removed. So jet

01:21:19.770 --> 01:21:22.590
engine could do that while simultaneously treating

01:21:22.590 --> 01:21:28.619
the area around it with retardant. And then direct

01:21:28.619 --> 01:21:31.779
attack. There are times where we don't have time

01:21:31.779 --> 01:21:34.220
to get in front of the fire two miles ahead of

01:21:34.220 --> 01:21:36.899
it because the fire is right at the thing that

01:21:36.899 --> 01:21:39.020
we're trying to protect. In that case, we need

01:21:39.020 --> 01:21:41.899
to suppress the fire and push the fire back.

01:21:43.479 --> 01:21:47.840
Fire, despite its devastating capabilities, is

01:21:47.840 --> 01:21:50.600
a fragile chemical reaction. It requires just

01:21:50.600 --> 01:21:52.140
the right amount of fuel, the right amount of

01:21:52.140 --> 01:21:55.960
oxygen, the right wind speed. for providing the

01:21:55.960 --> 01:22:01.479
oxygen. And if you disrupt that with too much

01:22:01.479 --> 01:22:06.260
wind, like blowing out a birthday candle or changing

01:22:06.260 --> 01:22:09.239
the humidity, spitting on the candle, raining

01:22:09.239 --> 01:22:14.020
on the fire, you can stop that reaction. And

01:22:14.020 --> 01:22:16.380
the jet engine offers you the horsepower to do

01:22:16.380 --> 01:22:21.500
that at scale. And the last thing that we need

01:22:21.500 --> 01:22:23.659
to do is be able to contain prescribed burns.

01:22:25.520 --> 01:22:28.020
The wildfire problem is a problem that we will

01:22:28.020 --> 01:22:30.640
have to burn our way out of. We are going to

01:22:30.640 --> 01:22:33.000
have to pre -consume the fuels in a controlled

01:22:33.000 --> 01:22:36.380
way so that they're not consumed in a random

01:22:36.380 --> 01:22:40.380
chaotic and devastating way by wildfire, which

01:22:40.380 --> 01:22:42.100
means that we're going to have to do prescribed

01:22:42.100 --> 01:22:44.699
burns over much larger areas much more frequently.

01:22:45.420 --> 01:22:47.520
Not only a prescribed burn, but you could think

01:22:47.520 --> 01:22:50.649
of this also as prescribed smoke. You can either

01:22:50.649 --> 01:22:53.489
have a wildfire where so much smoke comes through

01:22:53.489 --> 01:22:56.229
a community that no one can breathe, or you can

01:22:56.229 --> 01:22:58.649
release the smoke a little bit at a time through

01:22:58.649 --> 01:23:01.770
these prescribed events. People are hesitant,

01:23:01.890 --> 01:23:04.350
however, to do prescribed burns because of the

01:23:04.350 --> 01:23:07.130
risk that the fire could get out of control.

01:23:07.789 --> 01:23:10.949
And so they allow fuels to accumulate year after

01:23:10.949 --> 01:23:14.350
year, creating an extremely dangerous fuel load

01:23:14.350 --> 01:23:16.210
on the ground because they're afraid something

01:23:16.210 --> 01:23:19.130
could happen. when they go to do a prescribed

01:23:19.130 --> 01:23:25.930
burn. This is just bad thinking. If you can define

01:23:25.930 --> 01:23:27.829
an area where you want to do a prescribed burn,

01:23:27.989 --> 01:23:30.770
and then you could lay out a 600 foot perimeter

01:23:30.770 --> 01:23:33.810
of retardant around that, then you could substantially

01:23:33.810 --> 01:23:37.010
reduce the risk of a wildfire prescribed burn

01:23:37.010 --> 01:23:41.430
escaping. So this was rummaging around in my

01:23:41.430 --> 01:23:45.829
head for a dozen years. And it was, you know,

01:23:45.829 --> 01:23:48.829
when that COVID break came that i was able to

01:23:48.829 --> 01:23:52.510
congeal this into an engineering diagram and

01:23:52.510 --> 01:23:56.569
write a patent for it and then after covid i

01:23:56.569 --> 01:23:58.630
went through the techstars program so i could

01:23:58.630 --> 01:24:01.569
learn to combine some technical knowledge with

01:24:01.569 --> 01:24:04.970
some business knowledge and was then able to

01:24:04.970 --> 01:24:08.630
go out and raise four million dollars for the

01:24:08.630 --> 01:24:11.329
use of the design engineering and prototyping

01:24:11.329 --> 01:24:17.180
of the idea so we now sit with two Small -scale

01:24:17.180 --> 01:24:20.380
prototypes that are UTVs that are equipped with

01:24:20.380 --> 01:24:24.039
jet engines. UTVs are really cool because they

01:24:24.039 --> 01:24:25.880
can get in between houses. They can treat the

01:24:25.880 --> 01:24:28.579
backyards. They can get places where you can't

01:24:28.579 --> 01:24:33.800
get with a Type 1 truck. And six weeks from now,

01:24:33.880 --> 01:24:36.699
we'll have the full -scale Hurricane with the

01:24:36.699 --> 01:24:40.260
massive jet engine and 2 ,500 -gallon tank on

01:24:40.260 --> 01:24:43.960
board. And I think this will be really a game

01:24:43.960 --> 01:24:48.560
-changer. in terms of our ability to repel and

01:24:48.560 --> 01:24:54.000
contain fire. So that's been my 24 -7 focus for

01:24:54.000 --> 01:25:00.220
the last five years. My family has paid the price

01:25:00.220 --> 01:25:03.899
of my absence considerably while I have obsessed

01:25:03.899 --> 01:25:09.869
with this problem. And then I hope that... Acting

01:25:09.869 --> 01:25:12.590
like the solid rocket booster engines on the

01:25:12.590 --> 01:25:14.789
space shuttle, I could put all my energy into

01:25:14.789 --> 01:25:17.149
this for a short amount of time, and then it

01:25:17.149 --> 01:25:19.729
will launch, and then pilots can take over the

01:25:19.729 --> 01:25:24.729
project. But to turn any project from an idea

01:25:24.729 --> 01:25:28.550
into reality requires an intense level of constant

01:25:28.550 --> 01:25:39.109
energy that I like to bring to projects. It makes

01:25:39.109 --> 01:25:40.890
so much sense. And so even when you were talking

01:25:40.890 --> 01:25:42.369
about prescribed burns, that's what I was thinking

01:25:42.369 --> 01:25:44.069
about before you even said it. You literally

01:25:44.069 --> 01:25:48.090
contain that burn, so you get to burn off everything

01:25:48.090 --> 01:25:49.869
in between, but it doesn't have the chance to

01:25:49.869 --> 01:25:52.229
jump the line then. And it's funny, Jason was

01:25:52.229 --> 01:25:54.010
talking about the firebots, and obviously we've

01:25:54.010 --> 01:25:56.489
got the goats. I mean, there's bringing, again,

01:25:56.569 --> 01:25:58.989
ancient knowledge and then modern technology

01:25:58.989 --> 01:26:02.130
in. But you're right. I mean, putting these men

01:26:02.130 --> 01:26:05.199
and women... in dangerous way with hand tools,

01:26:05.460 --> 01:26:07.439
you know, even though, yes, in certain times

01:26:07.439 --> 01:26:09.500
it's effective, I would argue maybe on a, on

01:26:09.500 --> 01:26:12.680
a less acute fire. Right. If you listen about

01:26:12.680 --> 01:26:14.800
Jason talking about the fire shelter, he's like,

01:26:14.880 --> 01:26:17.319
the answer isn't the shelter. The answer is not

01:26:17.319 --> 01:26:18.920
putting these men and women there in the first

01:26:18.920 --> 01:26:22.000
place. So I've got another friend who talks about

01:26:22.000 --> 01:26:24.560
checkering. Where I used to work, they had all

01:26:24.560 --> 01:26:27.239
this dense woodland and it was a theme park.

01:26:27.359 --> 01:26:28.880
So the fireworks would always go in there and

01:26:28.880 --> 01:26:31.739
they'd be fighting muck fires for weeks. And

01:26:31.739 --> 01:26:33.520
he's like, you just go in and you checker. That

01:26:33.520 --> 01:26:35.579
way you've got a small square that's on fire

01:26:35.579 --> 01:26:37.699
and everything else isn't. But again, it's a

01:26:37.699 --> 01:26:40.789
resistance from the facade. But, you know, it's

01:26:40.789 --> 01:26:44.890
such a false economy. And obviously with Paradise

01:26:44.890 --> 01:26:47.609
Fire and some of these other ones. And I don't

01:26:47.609 --> 01:26:49.829
know if there was resistance on prescribed burns

01:26:49.829 --> 01:26:51.829
in that particular incidence, but if there is,

01:26:51.869 --> 01:26:54.949
the price when that fire comes to your doorstep

01:26:54.949 --> 01:26:57.229
far outweighs some discomfort from a prescribed

01:26:57.229 --> 01:26:59.550
burn. But being able to do it safely with the

01:26:59.550 --> 01:27:01.329
technology that's out there, including yours,

01:27:01.850 --> 01:27:04.529
I mean, that's an absolute game changer. You

01:27:04.529 --> 01:27:08.390
mentioned about the retardant. PFAS is now a

01:27:08.390 --> 01:27:11.069
big conversation. You're not only in us, and

01:27:11.069 --> 01:27:12.750
there's some good news. I've had some scientists

01:27:12.750 --> 01:27:14.590
on that are developing a probiotic that will

01:27:14.590 --> 01:27:16.960
actually pull it from our body. I've never heard

01:27:16.960 --> 01:27:19.239
before, but it's something that we want to avoid.

01:27:19.479 --> 01:27:21.460
What is the retardant that you're using in this

01:27:21.460 --> 01:27:24.760
particular instance? There are a lot of retardant

01:27:24.760 --> 01:27:27.979
products on the market. I have my own preference,

01:27:28.239 --> 01:27:33.220
which is a product called Citrotec. There's many

01:27:33.220 --> 01:27:36.319
things I like about Citrotec. One is that the

01:27:36.319 --> 01:27:39.279
active ingredient is potassium citrate, which

01:27:39.279 --> 01:27:42.260
I ingest on a regular basis when I eat my citrus

01:27:42.260 --> 01:27:46.109
fruits and vegetables. If I go to the doctor

01:27:46.109 --> 01:27:47.689
and I have a low potassium level, they would

01:27:47.689 --> 01:27:51.310
give me potassium citrate pills to take. So this

01:27:51.310 --> 01:27:54.750
is a food grade medical product that simply improves

01:27:54.750 --> 01:27:58.369
your potassium levels, which happen to counteract

01:27:58.369 --> 01:28:01.770
the effect of high sodium levels in your blood

01:28:01.770 --> 01:28:05.250
pressure. So there's that. And then there's an

01:28:05.250 --> 01:28:09.090
enteric coating on it, which is just like what's

01:28:09.090 --> 01:28:12.590
on an aspirin to stop the pills from dissolving

01:28:12.590 --> 01:28:16.590
too soon in your stomach. So when potassium citrate

01:28:16.590 --> 01:28:19.569
solution is applied to vegetation, it soaks in,

01:28:19.609 --> 01:28:22.810
the water evaporates off, it leaves the potassium

01:28:22.810 --> 01:28:25.470
citrate in the vegetation, and then the enteric

01:28:25.470 --> 01:28:30.310
coating resists leaching from rain so that it

01:28:30.310 --> 01:28:32.850
can maintain that high potassium citrate level.

01:28:33.250 --> 01:28:36.529
So I like that. I also like the fact that when

01:28:36.529 --> 01:28:39.289
you look at the MSDS on it, there's nothing hidden

01:28:39.289 --> 01:28:44.020
under the heading of trade secrets. All the ingredients

01:28:44.020 --> 01:28:47.420
are listed and you can tell right away, okay,

01:28:47.460 --> 01:28:49.399
this is what's in here. I feel comfortable with

01:28:49.399 --> 01:28:51.880
this or I don't feel comfortable with that. But

01:28:51.880 --> 01:28:53.920
you know what you're dealing with. And virtually

01:28:53.920 --> 01:28:57.460
every other retardant out there, they don't tell

01:28:57.460 --> 01:29:00.220
you what's in it. They just say, it's safe. Trust

01:29:00.220 --> 01:29:06.359
me. Phrases like benign by design. Like, okay,

01:29:06.439 --> 01:29:09.479
that's cute and all, but I want to see the fish

01:29:09.479 --> 01:29:13.739
reports. I want to see. the 18 -month trials.

01:29:14.140 --> 01:29:17.899
I want to see the science behind it. And Steve

01:29:17.899 --> 01:29:21.579
Conboy at Citratech has been incredibly transparent

01:29:21.579 --> 01:29:24.939
with that process. So that makes me comfortable

01:29:24.939 --> 01:29:27.579
with that. Also, it's a product, just like if

01:29:27.579 --> 01:29:30.279
you have saltwater and you leave it there for

01:29:30.279 --> 01:29:32.159
10 years, the salt doesn't come out. It's always

01:29:32.159 --> 01:29:36.100
saltwater. So Citratech doesn't ever fall out

01:29:36.100 --> 01:29:38.260
of solution. It doesn't have to be agitated.

01:29:38.539 --> 01:29:41.979
And from a... From fluid dynamics perspective,

01:29:42.979 --> 01:29:47.159
it's just like water. So any tests that you could

01:29:47.159 --> 01:29:49.680
do about the broadcast distance, the particle

01:29:49.680 --> 01:29:52.340
size, the particle density, the effective range,

01:29:52.500 --> 01:29:56.000
the coverage area that you could test with the

01:29:56.000 --> 01:29:57.579
product, you could test just as effectively with

01:29:57.579 --> 01:30:03.699
water. So there's my two cents on the science

01:30:03.699 --> 01:30:06.520
side on the retardant. Brilliant. I mean, it's

01:30:06.520 --> 01:30:08.100
great to hear. I mean, there's an alternative.

01:30:08.140 --> 01:30:12.220
You saw in the Palisades fire, I mean, all the

01:30:12.220 --> 01:30:15.039
AFFF being dropped, all these red clouds. It's

01:30:15.039 --> 01:30:16.439
terrible. Yeah, it's putting out some of the

01:30:16.439 --> 01:30:19.199
fire, but that's going to be in the ground now

01:30:19.199 --> 01:30:22.920
for millennia. And it's so sad. Yeah. And even

01:30:22.920 --> 01:30:24.840
as they scale back the PFAS and they just move

01:30:24.840 --> 01:30:29.800
to other elements like phosphorus. If you go

01:30:29.800 --> 01:30:32.039
into an area that typically has a low phosphorus

01:30:32.039 --> 01:30:34.460
soil and then you start dropping all this phosphorus

01:30:34.460 --> 01:30:36.079
on it, you're changing the nature of the soil.

01:30:36.220 --> 01:30:38.680
And when you change the soil, you change what

01:30:38.680 --> 01:30:41.119
can grow in it. So now the only things that would

01:30:41.119 --> 01:30:43.460
grow in that area would be vegetation that has

01:30:43.460 --> 01:30:47.840
a high tolerance to phosphorus or performs well

01:30:47.840 --> 01:30:50.720
in phosphorus. Those plants are typically more

01:30:50.720 --> 01:30:53.479
flammable than the plants that would grow in

01:30:53.479 --> 01:30:57.199
the low phosphorus soil. So now you are... Putting

01:30:57.199 --> 01:31:01.340
out the fire, yes, while creating a problem for

01:31:01.340 --> 01:31:06.699
the next 20 years of growing only flammable vegetation

01:31:06.699 --> 01:31:12.560
there. Not to mention that phosphorus feeds the

01:31:12.560 --> 01:31:16.140
organisms that are in water that cause algae,

01:31:16.260 --> 01:31:20.800
causes algae over bloom. So as if wildfires weren't

01:31:20.800 --> 01:31:23.819
bad enough for the hydrology system, now we're

01:31:23.819 --> 01:31:26.869
adding chemicals that make it even worse. When

01:31:26.869 --> 01:31:28.989
you lose a mountainside of trees and you lose

01:31:28.989 --> 01:31:31.789
that root system, what happens next? The next

01:31:31.789 --> 01:31:35.510
time it rains, that all slides down, plugs up

01:31:35.510 --> 01:31:38.949
the rivers, clogs the intakes for water systems.

01:31:39.390 --> 01:31:42.449
So there's a cascading effect from these wildfires.

01:31:42.510 --> 01:31:45.229
It's not just what burns on the day. It's how

01:31:45.229 --> 01:31:48.350
the environment is impacted after the hydrology,

01:31:48.350 --> 01:31:54.000
how that is impacted. And not to mention... the

01:31:54.000 --> 01:31:57.319
lung health of all of the people downrange of

01:31:57.319 --> 01:32:00.899
that fire. So we have this country, Canada, just

01:32:00.899 --> 01:32:03.880
to our north. I refer to it as the country that

01:32:03.880 --> 01:32:06.819
can't keep its smoke to itself. Is that the one

01:32:06.819 --> 01:32:08.899
that we're supposed to take over along with Greenland

01:32:08.899 --> 01:32:14.579
and the Gulf of Mexico? I think all I could do

01:32:14.579 --> 01:32:18.500
is give you an enthusiastic no comment. Again,

01:32:18.779 --> 01:32:23.260
idiocracy. Anyway, I digress. There you go. Yeah.

01:32:23.640 --> 01:32:30.020
I mean, I was bemoaning the fact this morning

01:32:30.020 --> 01:32:36.500
to my girlfriend that how hesitant people are

01:32:36.500 --> 01:32:39.479
now to say what's stupid and what's not because

01:32:39.479 --> 01:32:44.020
of fear of political reprisal. And I am sure

01:32:44.020 --> 01:32:46.119
that is not why my grandparents moved to this

01:32:46.119 --> 01:32:51.750
country. Very, very sad to say, to see. I don't

01:32:51.750 --> 01:32:54.270
think most people would ever dream that. Let's

01:32:54.270 --> 01:32:56.329
say the same way as most Russians never dreamed

01:32:56.329 --> 01:32:58.210
of going into Ukraine either. You know, this

01:32:58.210 --> 01:33:00.369
is what's done by some of these people that call

01:33:00.369 --> 01:33:03.270
themselves leaders does not reflect the majority

01:33:03.270 --> 01:33:05.949
of the people in that country. No. In fact, when

01:33:05.949 --> 01:33:08.369
we when we build the future iterations of the

01:33:08.369 --> 01:33:12.069
hurricane, I wanted to have them built in Canada

01:33:12.069 --> 01:33:17.380
by a company called Tiger Cat. When I spoke with

01:33:17.380 --> 01:33:20.060
the CEO of Tiger Cat last week, I felt the need

01:33:20.060 --> 01:33:23.180
as an American to apologize. And he said, you're

01:33:23.180 --> 01:33:27.279
not the first. I just spent the weekend with

01:33:27.279 --> 01:33:29.359
a few Canadians. This is last week, I mean, and

01:33:29.359 --> 01:33:31.319
it was the same thing. It was just a whole lot

01:33:31.319 --> 01:33:34.699
of face palming, basically. Yeah, right. Embarrassing.

01:33:35.079 --> 01:33:39.739
But, you know, we're resilient people. We've

01:33:39.739 --> 01:33:43.319
gotten through other things. Yes. You know, you

01:33:43.319 --> 01:33:46.380
had asked about. para -entertainment activities

01:33:46.380 --> 01:33:50.899
and injuries that happen on set. So one of the

01:33:50.899 --> 01:33:53.159
things I've done a great deal of is work as an

01:33:53.159 --> 01:33:57.340
expert witness in lawsuits involving cases of

01:33:57.340 --> 01:34:00.239
people being injured on movie sets. Because it's

01:34:00.239 --> 01:34:02.180
almost always a matter of oversight or rushing

01:34:02.180 --> 01:34:08.699
or ignoring available safety information. I was

01:34:08.699 --> 01:34:11.880
an expert witness against Alec Baldwin in the

01:34:11.880 --> 01:34:15.390
killing of Helena Hutchins. And several other

01:34:15.390 --> 01:34:19.529
high -profile cases. And usually, you know, the

01:34:19.529 --> 01:34:23.649
knowledge is there. We just ignore it. Yeah.

01:34:24.010 --> 01:34:29.210
Yeah. So I go into... So the other thing, though,

01:34:29.229 --> 01:34:31.829
is, of course, as you're around something more,

01:34:32.029 --> 01:34:35.090
you have a very different sense of what's dangerous

01:34:35.090 --> 01:34:38.329
and what's not. So if you've never been to a

01:34:38.329 --> 01:34:39.829
gun range, you might say, going to a gun range,

01:34:39.890 --> 01:34:41.289
that's got to be really dangerous. You're around

01:34:41.289 --> 01:34:43.229
all these guns. It's like, oh, well. I've been

01:34:43.229 --> 01:34:47.250
around gun rangers my whole life. I have no feeling

01:34:47.250 --> 01:34:50.470
that they're dangerous. Explosions, isn't that

01:34:50.470 --> 01:34:53.430
dangerous? I set off explosions where I'm standing

01:34:53.430 --> 01:34:55.989
eight feet away on a regular basis. It's not

01:34:55.989 --> 01:34:59.529
dangerous because people who do that, they possess

01:34:59.529 --> 01:35:02.590
specialized knowledge where they're able to evaluate

01:35:02.590 --> 01:35:07.430
the risk with much more precision and an informed

01:35:07.430 --> 01:35:10.529
basis than people who don't do it for a living.

01:35:13.980 --> 01:35:16.659
So I'm sure you know from your stunt work that

01:35:16.659 --> 01:35:18.180
you've done a lot of things that people said,

01:35:18.239 --> 01:35:20.239
oh, my God, that's so dangerous. But because

01:35:20.239 --> 01:35:23.079
you have personal knowledge of how it's set up,

01:35:23.119 --> 01:35:26.539
you have no feeling that it's particularly dangerous

01:35:26.539 --> 01:35:29.899
or reckless. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely calculated.

01:35:29.920 --> 01:35:31.800
It's dangerous, but it's calculated. And it's

01:35:31.800 --> 01:35:34.479
funny because firefighters are impressed by the

01:35:34.479 --> 01:35:36.220
stunt side. And it's like, well, we do stunts

01:35:36.220 --> 01:35:38.829
for a living, though. We throw on gear that,

01:35:38.890 --> 01:35:41.270
as you said, we trust implicitly and then run

01:35:41.270 --> 01:35:43.109
into burning buildings or hang off the side of

01:35:43.109 --> 01:35:45.609
a bridge on a rope to get rescue, you know, whatever.

01:35:45.810 --> 01:35:48.930
We'll go down a pipe or, you know, climb through

01:35:48.930 --> 01:35:51.050
a mangled car that's teetering and, you know,

01:35:51.050 --> 01:35:53.149
trying to pull someone out. I mean, it is, those

01:35:53.149 --> 01:35:54.869
are stunts, but the thing is we don't get to

01:35:54.869 --> 01:35:57.050
set those up. We have to mitigate all the dangers

01:35:57.050 --> 01:35:59.270
as you're talking about soccer, you know, as

01:35:59.270 --> 01:36:01.630
the game progresses, it's an ongoing dynamic

01:36:01.630 --> 01:36:07.680
fluid situation. Yeah. Very interesting. So I

01:36:07.680 --> 01:36:09.399
cut you off because you were just about to talk

01:36:09.399 --> 01:36:11.399
about Canada. You said, you know, the smoke from

01:36:11.399 --> 01:36:13.899
the north. So I'll carry on. I was just saying

01:36:13.899 --> 01:36:16.880
that, you know, if they get some fires that become

01:36:16.880 --> 01:36:21.239
unmanageable there, there they are with literally

01:36:21.239 --> 01:36:25.500
millions of hectares vulnerable to fire and on

01:36:25.500 --> 01:36:30.500
fire and a fire force of about 2000 people. So

01:36:30.500 --> 01:36:32.680
they have to make some very difficult decisions

01:36:32.680 --> 01:36:38.390
about where they apply their forces. I got a

01:36:38.390 --> 01:36:40.789
call during that summer where they said, there

01:36:40.789 --> 01:36:44.050
are 450 villages that we know won't be here next

01:36:44.050 --> 01:36:48.130
year. We don't have the resources to protect

01:36:48.130 --> 01:36:52.310
any of them. We have to focus our resources on

01:36:52.310 --> 01:36:54.229
the large communities, so these towns will be

01:36:54.229 --> 01:36:57.149
gone. And we're just interested in what type

01:36:57.149 --> 01:36:59.710
of technology can you provide to assure them

01:36:59.710 --> 01:37:05.750
a safe way out. The response was limited to evacuation

01:37:05.750 --> 01:37:08.850
route hardening, not to the preservations of

01:37:08.850 --> 01:37:10.649
towns. They didn't have the ability to do it.

01:37:10.989 --> 01:37:14.369
But in the process of all that going on, 120

01:37:14.369 --> 01:37:18.430
million Americans downstream of that are breathing

01:37:18.430 --> 01:37:23.609
the smoke. The day that New York City became

01:37:23.609 --> 01:37:29.810
unlivable with these images of orange skies was

01:37:29.810 --> 01:37:32.869
a day that I really celebrated. Not because a

01:37:32.869 --> 01:37:34.489
lot of people are having to breathe toxic air,

01:37:34.630 --> 01:37:39.109
but because it brought the reality to the East

01:37:39.109 --> 01:37:42.310
Coast and to Wall Street that wildfire is not

01:37:42.310 --> 01:37:44.350
a regional issue. Wildfire is not a Canadian

01:37:44.350 --> 01:37:46.550
problem. It's not a West Coast problem. It's

01:37:46.550 --> 01:37:50.029
a world problem. Because while there may be 147

01:37:50.029 --> 01:37:53.430
different countries, there's one atmosphere and

01:37:53.430 --> 01:37:55.689
we all breathe it. And anything that happens

01:37:55.689 --> 01:37:58.170
in one part of the world impacts the atmosphere

01:37:58.170 --> 01:38:01.760
for all of us. We can't ever really take the

01:38:01.760 --> 01:38:03.720
idea that wildfire is someone else's problem

01:38:03.720 --> 01:38:07.279
just because it originates on their soil. Any

01:38:07.279 --> 01:38:10.100
more than we could say, you know, COVID was a

01:38:10.100 --> 01:38:11.680
Chinese problem because it started in China.

01:38:11.899 --> 01:38:14.319
It's the problem of everyone who's impacted by

01:38:14.319 --> 01:38:17.720
it. And we're all impacted by it. So I think

01:38:17.720 --> 01:38:22.359
we all have a stake in wildfire control. And

01:38:22.359 --> 01:38:24.560
I would never say, you know, wildfire elimination,

01:38:24.619 --> 01:38:26.720
let's stop wildfires. That would be ridiculous.

01:38:26.939 --> 01:38:28.899
And that'd be like saying, let's stop lightning.

01:38:29.199 --> 01:38:33.619
Like wildfires are a fact of nature. They start

01:38:33.619 --> 01:38:36.220
thousands of times a day. They always have. They

01:38:36.220 --> 01:38:39.159
always will. So we're not trying to fight wildfires.

01:38:39.479 --> 01:38:42.079
We're trying to fight wildfire destruction and

01:38:42.079 --> 01:38:44.840
wildfire devastation. We're trying to minimize

01:38:44.840 --> 01:38:48.119
the impacts of wildfire on the built environment.

01:38:48.920 --> 01:38:54.449
And that is... That is a scalable problem solution.

01:38:54.970 --> 01:38:57.750
We can do that. We just have to put a little

01:38:57.750 --> 01:38:59.890
bit more thought into where we build, how we

01:38:59.890 --> 01:39:03.390
build, how we mitigate, where we allow fuels

01:39:03.390 --> 01:39:05.430
to grow and where we contain them and where we

01:39:05.430 --> 01:39:10.149
treat them. So it's solvable. Like any other

01:39:10.149 --> 01:39:12.229
problem, it's simply a matter of collective will.

01:39:15.310 --> 01:39:17.210
It has to be an interesting question to ask you

01:39:17.210 --> 01:39:19.329
because you are coming from a very strong science

01:39:19.329 --> 01:39:22.439
background. And going to the politicization of

01:39:22.439 --> 01:39:24.920
anything when it comes to global warming, you

01:39:24.920 --> 01:39:26.800
know, you've got one side that says it's killing

01:39:26.800 --> 01:39:28.680
everything, got the other side that dismisses

01:39:28.680 --> 01:39:31.300
it as gibberish. And then again, normal people

01:39:31.300 --> 01:39:33.140
standing in the middle like a tennis match looking

01:39:33.140 --> 01:39:35.279
left and right going, why are these crazy people

01:39:35.279 --> 01:39:38.340
even talking? When you look at COVID and you

01:39:38.340 --> 01:39:41.399
see the reports of the Nile clearing up, of,

01:39:41.439 --> 01:39:44.039
you know, the smog in London and LA clearing,

01:39:44.239 --> 01:39:46.819
you know, the ozone layer starting to close again.

01:39:48.279 --> 01:39:51.340
And that's just an obvious benefit. So we know

01:39:51.340 --> 01:39:53.859
that there is an impact of all our pollution

01:39:53.859 --> 01:39:56.180
globally. And I know it's not just the States,

01:39:56.199 --> 01:39:58.319
not just UK. I mean, India and China and some

01:39:58.319 --> 01:40:00.119
of these other places, I know, are big contributors

01:40:00.119 --> 01:40:03.920
to the pollution. But when it comes to global

01:40:03.920 --> 01:40:06.739
warming, that term, people kind of poo -poo it,

01:40:06.779 --> 01:40:09.899
even though they literally watched the air in

01:40:09.899 --> 01:40:12.239
their city get cleaner when the cars came off.

01:40:12.880 --> 01:40:16.159
What is your perspective? I know it's just one

01:40:16.159 --> 01:40:18.220
of the contributing factors, but what is your

01:40:18.220 --> 01:40:21.000
perspective of the impact of global warming on

01:40:21.000 --> 01:40:24.000
this wildfire issue? Because so many of the men

01:40:24.000 --> 01:40:26.779
and women on the boots on the ground, the actual

01:40:26.779 --> 01:40:29.880
blue -collar firefighters are all seeing this

01:40:29.880 --> 01:40:32.640
getting worse and worse, hotter and hotter. Right.

01:40:32.699 --> 01:40:36.180
They describe it as hotter, drier, and windier.

01:40:37.260 --> 01:40:42.449
These are measurable phenomena. The thermometer

01:40:42.449 --> 01:40:44.869
has no political leaning. It simply tells you

01:40:44.869 --> 01:40:47.210
what the temperature is, which is the average

01:40:47.210 --> 01:40:51.289
velocity of the molecules. So there's really

01:40:51.289 --> 01:40:55.350
not any debate in the science community about

01:40:55.350 --> 01:41:01.170
attributing what we see to global warming. That's

01:41:01.170 --> 01:41:06.909
strictly political theater. And regardless as

01:41:06.909 --> 01:41:09.529
to whether it was happening. by natural causes

01:41:09.529 --> 01:41:11.609
or man -made causes, we still have to deal with

01:41:11.609 --> 01:41:15.729
the consequence. And so while we could reduce

01:41:15.729 --> 01:41:22.189
our contribution to the phenomena, we nonetheless

01:41:22.189 --> 01:41:24.569
have to deal with the phenomena. The phenomena

01:41:24.569 --> 01:41:31.210
is hotter, windier, drier, more extreme fires

01:41:31.210 --> 01:41:38.159
with more frequency. I think it's just not that

01:41:38.159 --> 01:41:41.399
the United States is a response culture, but

01:41:41.399 --> 01:41:44.640
really every culture responds to fear because

01:41:44.640 --> 01:41:48.880
that's an innate human characteristic. Fire is

01:41:48.880 --> 01:41:52.939
fear -inducing. News stories are merely anxiety

01:41:52.939 --> 01:41:56.699
-provoking. And therefore, we respond to the

01:41:56.699 --> 01:42:00.520
scary thing more than sometimes the more dangerous

01:42:00.520 --> 01:42:06.149
thing if it happens to be less visceral. So when

01:42:06.149 --> 01:42:09.670
you watch the news, you're watching an amalgamation

01:42:09.670 --> 01:42:12.789
of what the most visceral experiences that took

01:42:12.789 --> 01:42:14.970
place in the community were, not what the most

01:42:14.970 --> 01:42:18.670
important ones were. An abandoned barn that burns

01:42:18.670 --> 01:42:22.149
down 50 miles from nowhere is the lead story,

01:42:22.350 --> 01:42:24.949
while cutting $50 million from the education

01:42:24.949 --> 01:42:28.010
budget doesn't even make the news that night.

01:42:28.430 --> 01:42:32.170
So there's a big difference between impact, importance,

01:42:32.229 --> 01:42:38.810
and... public awareness. But in this case, wildfire

01:42:38.810 --> 01:42:42.130
is both a subject of importance that's both visceral

01:42:42.130 --> 01:42:46.050
and important, which in my mind makes a great

01:42:46.050 --> 01:42:50.670
business. Absolutely. Well, I'm sure some people

01:42:50.670 --> 01:42:52.409
listening are probably wondering the same thing.

01:42:52.470 --> 01:42:55.909
When I think of jets, I think of propulsion and

01:42:55.909 --> 01:43:01.050
planes. How are you able to Change the physics

01:43:01.050 --> 01:43:03.869
so these vehicles that these engines are mounted

01:43:03.869 --> 01:43:06.550
on aren't getting shot the opposite way of where

01:43:06.550 --> 01:43:10.649
you're trying to disperse this fire suppression

01:43:10.649 --> 01:43:14.850
foam. Well, friction is your friend. Friction

01:43:14.850 --> 01:43:19.810
is what allows your car to stop. When a jet is

01:43:19.810 --> 01:43:24.289
placed on an airplane. It's shooting gases back,

01:43:24.489 --> 01:43:27.609
and that creates that equal and opposite reaction

01:43:27.609 --> 01:43:30.170
of pushing the plane forward. Because the plane

01:43:30.170 --> 01:43:33.430
is in the air, and to the degree possible in

01:43:33.430 --> 01:43:36.970
thin air at higher altitudes, it provides less

01:43:36.970 --> 01:43:40.789
resistance to that propulsive force. When you

01:43:40.789 --> 01:43:44.649
put that propulsive force on a 7 -ton truck,

01:43:44.930 --> 01:43:48.689
to which you've added 10 ,000 pounds of water,

01:43:51.340 --> 01:43:54.439
and you have six tires on the ground, all with

01:43:54.439 --> 01:43:58.000
aggressive tread, you simply have to set up a

01:43:58.000 --> 01:44:00.079
dynamic where the resistance provided by the

01:44:00.079 --> 01:44:02.300
weight and the friction on the ground is greater

01:44:02.300 --> 01:44:06.260
than the propulsive force of the jet. So, you

01:44:06.260 --> 01:44:09.560
know, when I spit on something, right, I'm creating

01:44:09.560 --> 01:44:11.420
a pulsar force this way, but it doesn't knock

01:44:11.420 --> 01:44:14.520
me over because I weigh 170 pounds. So it's the

01:44:14.520 --> 01:44:17.140
same thing here. It's scaling the jet to the

01:44:17.140 --> 01:44:20.560
capabilities of the vehicle you put it on. Amazing.

01:44:21.180 --> 01:44:23.539
Legitimate question. And could you point the

01:44:23.539 --> 01:44:25.300
jet straight backwards and put the truck in neutral

01:44:25.300 --> 01:44:27.199
and get the heck out of there faster if you needed

01:44:27.199 --> 01:44:29.739
to? You absolutely could. That would be so cool.

01:44:31.199 --> 01:44:34.199
Come on. Watching a frigging 10 -ton truck flying

01:44:34.199 --> 01:44:36.119
up the side of a mountain to get away from a

01:44:36.119 --> 01:44:41.300
fire. Right? Yeah. Although I envision pointing

01:44:41.300 --> 01:44:44.699
the jet forward more often so that we can clear

01:44:44.699 --> 01:44:47.539
territory like we would with a plow. You know,

01:44:47.560 --> 01:44:51.270
dozers. And dozer lines are a commonly used tool

01:44:51.270 --> 01:44:56.229
in fire containment. But when fires are creating

01:44:56.229 --> 01:45:00.149
ember cast two to 40 miles away that's starting

01:45:00.149 --> 01:45:02.930
new fires, what is really the benefit of creating

01:45:02.930 --> 01:45:08.689
this eight -foot break? I don't see it. Maybe

01:45:08.689 --> 01:45:11.590
in fires of yesteryear, then yesterday's technology

01:45:11.590 --> 01:45:14.310
did something, but I don't think that's really

01:45:14.310 --> 01:45:17.789
effective right now. So I think being able to

01:45:17.789 --> 01:45:23.770
clear a 1 ,200 foot wide path by using distributed

01:45:23.770 --> 01:45:26.949
retardant is going to be a lot more effective,

01:45:27.050 --> 01:45:30.550
a lot faster, and have a less permanent negative

01:45:30.550 --> 01:45:36.739
impact on the area after the fire. for as much

01:45:36.739 --> 01:45:39.020
money as we spend to have dozers clear a line

01:45:39.020 --> 01:45:41.460
down to what they love to call mineral soil.

01:45:42.899 --> 01:45:45.000
Then they have to come back after the fire and

01:45:45.000 --> 01:45:46.659
they have to put dirt back down or else they

01:45:46.659 --> 01:45:49.340
have these huge dozer scars across the land.

01:45:51.819 --> 01:45:57.880
So there's a new or better way. And while I'm

01:45:57.880 --> 01:45:59.920
not sure that my current iteration is the way,

01:46:00.239 --> 01:46:02.739
I think it's certainly in the right direction.

01:46:03.449 --> 01:46:05.930
And that as we apply it more often, we'll continue

01:46:05.930 --> 01:46:09.449
to perfect it. Absolutely. I mean, it sounds

01:46:09.449 --> 01:46:11.189
amazing. And this is the thing, you know, we're

01:46:11.189 --> 01:46:14.609
in 2025. You know, we all have microcomputers

01:46:14.609 --> 01:46:16.149
that are in our pocket. You know, people are

01:46:16.149 --> 01:46:19.390
driving electric cars everywhere. And then there's

01:46:19.390 --> 01:46:21.050
areas of the fire service we're doing. I mean,

01:46:21.090 --> 01:46:23.130
like I always talk about even our helmets are

01:46:23.130 --> 01:46:25.289
almost 100 years old, you know, and there's a

01:46:25.289 --> 01:46:27.590
resistance changing that. So, you know, when

01:46:27.590 --> 01:46:30.859
this... is available and it just makes more sense

01:46:30.859 --> 01:46:32.960
why would you not try it why would you not get

01:46:32.960 --> 01:46:35.220
a few out there and get it going and then compare

01:46:35.220 --> 01:46:39.100
resistance to change right so we're champions

01:46:39.100 --> 01:46:42.279
of them yeah the things that are going uh against

01:46:42.279 --> 01:46:45.140
that resistance right now are one the impact

01:46:45.140 --> 01:46:47.020
on the real estate and the insurance industry

01:46:47.020 --> 01:46:50.119
of these fires um if you can't get insurance

01:46:50.119 --> 01:46:52.180
you can't build if you can't get insurance you

01:46:52.180 --> 01:46:54.000
can't sell you can't get insurance you can't

01:46:54.000 --> 01:46:57.819
buy So until we figure out how to make areas

01:46:57.819 --> 01:47:00.220
safe where insurance companies are willing to

01:47:00.220 --> 01:47:02.819
come in and underwrite that risk, we're going

01:47:02.819 --> 01:47:06.359
to see huge impacts on those industries. And

01:47:06.359 --> 01:47:09.239
when people can't sell their house because it's

01:47:09.239 --> 01:47:13.520
in a declared wildfire zone, what happens to

01:47:13.520 --> 01:47:16.220
the property values? They drop. When the property's

01:47:16.220 --> 01:47:18.239
values drop, what happens next? The tax base

01:47:18.239 --> 01:47:20.920
drops. When the tax base drops, the cities can't

01:47:20.920 --> 01:47:24.289
offer the services that they can. previously

01:47:24.289 --> 01:47:28.430
and then neighborhoods go into decline so there's

01:47:28.430 --> 01:47:31.890
a much larger economic ripple impact from these

01:47:31.890 --> 01:47:34.689
fires than you would gather just from watching

01:47:34.689 --> 01:47:41.529
the fire on tv and so the ability to make dangerous

01:47:41.529 --> 01:47:44.329
areas livable through the use of retardants and

01:47:44.329 --> 01:47:47.590
vegetation removal and vegetation treatment is

01:47:47.590 --> 01:47:49.949
going to have a big impact on whether communities

01:47:49.949 --> 01:47:52.989
you know survive and thrive or decline and perish

01:47:54.750 --> 01:47:57.090
Absolutely. Well, where can people learn more

01:47:57.090 --> 01:47:59.590
about Team Wildfire and the hurricane? Everywhere.

01:48:01.930 --> 01:48:05.609
You can go to teamwildfire .com, click on that

01:48:05.609 --> 01:48:08.729
media page. You'll see a six -minute story from

01:48:08.729 --> 01:48:12.149
the Today Show that we did in April, a recent

01:48:12.149 --> 01:48:16.250
story on CBS San Diego. There's a lot of coverage

01:48:16.250 --> 01:48:20.590
of it because, as I said, it's a visual story.

01:48:21.350 --> 01:48:25.460
It's a visual solution to a visual problem. So

01:48:25.460 --> 01:48:27.920
I wouldn't flaunt the fact that we have a lot

01:48:27.920 --> 01:48:30.260
of coverage as evidence to say that this is a

01:48:30.260 --> 01:48:34.060
great idea, but it certainly works well on TV.

01:48:34.960 --> 01:48:37.600
It's a popular idea really because people are

01:48:37.600 --> 01:48:40.380
desperate for a new solution. And so far the

01:48:40.380 --> 01:48:42.560
solutions in that space have really been incremental

01:48:42.560 --> 01:48:46.760
when what we need is solutions that are exponential.

01:48:49.119 --> 01:48:51.760
Absolutely. All right. Well, I want to throw

01:48:51.760 --> 01:48:53.460
some quick closing questions at you before I

01:48:53.460 --> 01:48:56.420
let you go. All right. Is it the lightning round?

01:48:57.260 --> 01:49:00.140
Yeah, not quite. The first one, is there a book

01:49:00.140 --> 01:49:02.619
or other books that you love to recommend? It

01:49:02.619 --> 01:49:05.159
can be related to our discussion today or completely

01:49:05.159 --> 01:49:08.800
unrelated. Man's Search for Meaning. I've got

01:49:08.800 --> 01:49:11.039
it right next to me. I love it. Viktor Frankl.

01:49:11.100 --> 01:49:16.779
I played him in a movie. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah.

01:49:16.939 --> 01:49:19.520
The movie's called Bending Light. It's a 15 -minute

01:49:19.520 --> 01:49:23.789
short. And you can find it online. Brilliant.

01:49:23.829 --> 01:49:25.390
Well, that covers my next one, and we'll make

01:49:25.390 --> 01:49:27.810
that the film, seeing as you worked on so many.

01:49:27.829 --> 01:49:30.170
Oh, no, the film? The film is The Right Stuff.

01:49:31.289 --> 01:49:33.569
The Right Stuff, that's your favorite one? Absolutely.

01:49:34.029 --> 01:49:39.210
I think every day in college. All right. Well,

01:49:39.289 --> 01:49:41.489
the next question, is there a person that you

01:49:41.489 --> 01:49:43.949
recommend to come on this podcast as a guest

01:49:43.949 --> 01:49:46.630
to speak to the first responders, military, and

01:49:46.630 --> 01:49:50.640
associated professions of the world? I would

01:49:50.640 --> 01:49:54.279
put Dave Winokur on the show and I would put

01:49:54.279 --> 01:49:59.020
Tom Guzman on the show. Dave probably has the

01:49:59.020 --> 01:50:02.399
most articulate vocabulary in describing fire

01:50:02.399 --> 01:50:08.079
-related phenomena, both proactively during and

01:50:08.079 --> 01:50:12.239
after of anyone I've spoken with. Brilliant.

01:50:12.439 --> 01:50:15.039
All right. Thank you. And the very last question

01:50:15.039 --> 01:50:16.779
before we make sure everyone knows where to find

01:50:16.779 --> 01:50:19.619
you specifically, what do you do to decompress?

01:50:22.389 --> 01:50:25.310
I live in the mountains over Boulder. I have

01:50:25.310 --> 01:50:28.090
a hot tub and I get in the hot tub and just stare

01:50:28.090 --> 01:50:33.729
at the mountains and appreciate the natural beauty

01:50:33.729 --> 01:50:37.010
around me, both during the day and particularly

01:50:37.010 --> 01:50:40.729
at night. I think looking up at the stars and

01:50:40.729 --> 01:50:44.329
seeing what your place in the cosmos is helps

01:50:44.329 --> 01:50:47.689
put the problems that keep you up at night into

01:50:47.689 --> 01:50:51.239
perspective. where you realize, yeah, not only

01:50:51.239 --> 01:50:54.359
will the neighborhood near me eventually burn

01:50:54.359 --> 01:50:57.100
down, the whole planet will be consumed by the

01:50:57.100 --> 01:51:00.399
sun one day and none of this will matter. So

01:51:00.399 --> 01:51:04.399
divide your time between focusing on the problems

01:51:04.399 --> 01:51:06.859
that will make the world better for you and your

01:51:06.859 --> 01:51:10.560
family and your next generation and taking care

01:51:10.560 --> 01:51:11.859
of the people who are in your life right now.

01:51:13.920 --> 01:51:15.859
100%. All right. Well, then for people, if they

01:51:15.859 --> 01:51:17.720
want to learn more about you specifically or

01:51:17.720 --> 01:51:19.239
reach out to you, where are the best places,

01:51:19.380 --> 01:51:21.800
LinkedIn, that kind of place? LinkedIn is where

01:51:21.800 --> 01:51:24.720
I spend a fair amount of my time. So you could

01:51:24.720 --> 01:51:27.699
read about the project at teamwildfire .com or

01:51:27.699 --> 01:51:30.619
please reach out to me on LinkedIn. I think it's

01:51:30.619 --> 01:51:34.619
linked, what is it? LinkedIn .in .whatever slash

01:51:34.619 --> 01:51:37.619
Wolf Steve, something like that. I'll give you

01:51:37.619 --> 01:51:39.460
a link to it, but I'm not hard to find on there.

01:51:40.539 --> 01:51:42.899
Beautiful. Well, Steve, I want to thank you so

01:51:42.899 --> 01:51:45.539
much. It's been such an amazing conversation.

01:51:45.840 --> 01:51:48.899
I mean, firstly, you know, your entrenchment

01:51:48.899 --> 01:51:51.220
in the science side, but yet thinking outside

01:51:51.220 --> 01:51:54.680
the box, but also this parallel stunt and, you

01:51:54.680 --> 01:51:57.680
know, EMS fire journey that you've had as well.

01:51:58.340 --> 01:52:00.479
It's been fascinating. So I want to thank you

01:52:00.479 --> 01:52:02.659
so, so much for being so generous with your time

01:52:02.659 --> 01:52:04.920
and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

01:52:05.079 --> 01:52:06.939
Well, James, thank you for being such a great

01:52:06.939 --> 01:52:09.859
interviewer and for your persistent curiosity.

01:52:10.840 --> 01:52:12.880
And for the way that you focus your curiosity

01:52:12.880 --> 01:52:18.399
on solving such an important problem. There's

01:52:18.399 --> 01:52:20.100
a reason we're designed to spend a third of our

01:52:20.100 --> 01:52:24.479
lives asleep. And when that's interrupted, nothing

01:52:24.479 --> 01:52:28.039
else escapes being a casualty of it. So thank

01:52:28.039 --> 01:52:28.380
you for that.