This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr, yet
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if you want to try Teambuildr, they are offering
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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you
think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome
to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,
my name is James Gearing and this week I have
an incredibly powerful and unique conversation
with veteran law enforcement officer and the
woman behind Resilient Heroes, Elizabeth Pohl.
Now, what makes this conversation so powerful
is as Liz progressed through her career, she
started seeing the devastating impact of the
mental health crisis on her own profession. Deciding
to be part of the solution, she began suicide
autopsies, taking a deep dive into all the contributing
factors to the officer's suicide. So we discuss
a host of topics from her own journey into law
enforcement, her own mental health story, forensic
psychology, the psych evals of the first responder
professions, canine therapy, and so much more.
Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment,
go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
well over 1 ,000 episodes now. So all I ask in
return is that you help share these incredible
men and women's stories so I can get them to
every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. So that being said, I introduce
to you Elizabeth Pohl. Enjoy. Well, Liz, I want
to start by saying thank you so much for taking
the time and coming on the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Thank you so much for having me.
I appreciate it. So where on planet Earth are
we finding you this afternoon? I am in rainy
slash snowy Chicago, Illinois. I always say this
to guests that aren't in Florida. I won't show
you what's outside my window because it would
make me even more depressed. No, please don't.
It'll hurt my soul. All right. Well, I would
have to start at the very beginning of your timeline.
So tell me where you were born and tell me a
little bit about your family dynamic, what your
parents did, how many siblings. So I was born
and raised in Chicago. I was born to a Polish
American father and a South American Colombian
born mother. So my background, ethnicity wise,
is pretty mixed. I speak both Spanish and English,
and I have one younger sister who's three years
younger than me. Brilliant. What did your parents
do as far as occupation? So my mom really, when
she first got here, she really worked in the
factories in my younger years. And then she just
really stayed at home. And my father was kind
of involved in personnel. But he died when I
was at a very young age. I'm sorry to hear that.
What about the immigration stories that you heard
from your mom and I'm assuming through your mom
about your father? Because I think in some of
these current rhetorics that we hear, there's
a very kind of anti -immigrant sentiment. And
I understand fully between legal and illegal.
I get that. But this nation was founded predominantly
on immigration. So what were kind of each of
their stories as far as you know? So my father
was born here. So there's really no story behind
that. Maybe his parents, but again, he was gone
so early on in my life that there's so much of
that side that there's a gap. And then with my
mother, most of her family, they all migrated
over. It was a different time. It wasn't at all
like it is. uh that we're seeing today people
were vetted um there was a process years and
years of waiting i even remember other family
members where it just took a long time for paperwork
to be filed um and just waiting for a response
of that background checks all of that kind of
stuff so um that's all i really really ultimately
recall is that there was a whole process and
it took some time because i remember cousins
that were you know a little older They weren't
babies. You know, it took time for them to come
over. And, you know, this was back in the 70s,
80s, maybe 90s. So that's kind of all I really
recall. We're seeing the ripple effect of drug
prohibition. I had this conversation with a lot
of people now. We kind of have this again, this
anti -immigrant sentiment sometimes, but then
we don't acknowledge the fact that some of the
issues in some of these countries were created
by us as a consumer in the illicit drug trade.
So when I think of Colombia in the 80s and 90s,
I'm thinking obviously about a lot of the cocaine
and the cartel issues that they had there. Was
there any conversation about that? Were they
trying to get away from certain areas in Colombia?
Or was it just... purely going to the States
for the American dream? I think it was really
just for better opportunity. I actually grew
up going back to Colombia just about every single
year as I was a young child. My mom took me for
the first time when I was there. she took me
for the first time there when i was nine months
old and i remember going back in my early childhood
years up to my teenage years and it's interesting
because in other countries it's not always this
like idea that you get from the media or from
what you see on tv it's really different so i
would travel every year to colombia and there
wasn't you know like people doing lines of cocaine
on the corner of every block as people imagined
um you know it like any other country and my
mother's from the capital from bogota it reminded
me very much of like any major city like chicago
or anything else where there's like skyscrapers
and there's um buildings and people going to
work and just living normal lives um you have
some poorer areas and some richer areas just
like any other city so um it yeah it it was for
me it was very normal to go back and forth and
i was very much um always exposed to different
cultures and we traveled a lot even to other
countries so i mean everything just you know
it varies and everybody has their opinions and
their ideas and yeah i think when you travel
you see the world it becomes less of an opinion
and more of an experience then you know exactly
if you think that you don't like the french people
because they didn't stay with you in war now
you change the name of your french fries to freedom
fries maybe you need to get on a plane and go
see the world a little bit yeah i've learned
that mostly on this job that um especially like
in areas that i worked here in the city you know
there are some of the uh porous and high uh stats
with crime and there's some very difficult areas
and you know i've learned especially through
this job that you know there's a lot more that
people don't really see i've met so many different
people um and not you know all over and i feel
like if you don't really travel if you don't
there's a whole other world other than like the
little city that you grew up in or the town or
whatever there's it's just there's so much to
see out there and there's so much behind these
TVs and like phones with social media. That's
only like you only see so much. And I feel like
when you really get out and you start to explore
the real world and you become so much more well
-rounded and there's so much to be learned, like
you just can't learn enough. I ask the military
members I have on the show that have been deployed
about, you know. The horrors that they say, and
I mean that as far as the atrocities that justify
us sending people over there, but then conversely,
the kindness and compassion. And it's that shared
humanity that you hear in Iraq and Afghanistan
and all these other places. And I just shared
a video yesterday, and it was a car that had
veered off the road and was in a river. And all
these, you know, good Samaritans, these Iraqis
were all there diving in and pulling kids out
of this car. And that could have been anywhere.
It could have been London. It could have been,
you know, Orlando. It could have been anywhere
on the planet. I think this is what we've got
to, I think, really kind of take a step back
and get away from this politicking and refine
the fact that no matter where you go on the planet.
most people are good people that just want to
put a roof over their head you know food in their
kids stomachs and watch them grow and become
productive adults themselves and the moment that
you're told oh this group no no no they're they're
all bad that you kind of need to question the
person that tells you that in the first place
yeah i think there's a lot of opinions out there
about just about everything i don't really get
involved in politics it's just not my I don't
know enough about it. I'm not one to ever speak
on something that's like beyond my scope. But
yeah, I can tell you that as being a police officer,
having done this job in one of the biggest cities
in this country, there's a lot of everything.
There really is. There's a lot of there's a lot
of bad. There's a lot of good. There's a lot
of scary. There's a lot of great and funny. I
mean, everything. There's just everything out
there. And I think it's case by case. Yeah, that's
really, but I do know that. Unfortunately, I
have seen a very much big amount of the ugly
side of humanity. And that's difficult when you
do this job because, you know, we're not getting
called for some of the most wonderful things
that are going on in society. So, yeah, there
is a lot of bad and ugly out there, unfortunately.
And I don't think I would have known that unless
I would have really done this job. Because you
really see a lot more than you think you're going
to see and experience. Yeah. And I think we get
a very skewed perspective because we're going
to everyone's worst day. And you guys, obviously,
there's criminality involved usually when you're
called as well. So we get immersed in that small
section that is constantly desperate and distrusting
of your profession. demanding of my profession
so it can skew you as a first responder if that's
all you see day in day out as far as your perspective
on humanity as a whole yeah it it i i still have
tried to ground myself throughout the years and
i know a lot of first responders that still try
to ground themselves too and not get sucked into
this idea that everyone in the world is bad um
again it's how you yourself like balance it out
right and balance your life so um yeah i i haven't
i can't say i've really been sucked into this
like you know one extreme or another way of thinking
it i think the healthiest way and the the right
way would be just kind of find a middle ground
if you will absolutely all right well then back
to your kind of early life when you were in the
school ages what were you playing as far as sports
and exercise Oh, I was a swimmer. And very early
on, my mom had us going in the direction of like,
you know, continuing our swimming with competitions.
And I was a lifeguard at the age of 16, because
that was the actual legal age of lifeguarding
here in Chicago, we have a big lakefront. So
I was like, I was lifeguard on the lakefront
and then moved on to the pools. I was a lifeguard
as well. I was a lifeguard as well for a long
time. And it's funny because in that profession,
we were held to a standard every two years. You
had to recertify, you had to do all your physical
tests and your toes and your CPR and everything.
And then I get into the fire service and it's
the same in law enforcement. Oh no, we don't
have mandatory fitness tests. And it's so weird
coming from the lifeguarding community because
why would you not have a mandatory fitness test
in a profession where people are trying to kill
you? And it's the same with lifeguarding. Imagine
an ocean lifeguard that said, well, I don't want
to learn how to swim anymore. The adrenaline
will kick in. I'll be able to get that kid. And
no, you won't. So it's so bizarre. And if you
had the same perspective that when you come from
lifeguarding and go into our profession, you
expect to be held to that high standard throughout
your career. Absolutely. And that I feel was
very helpful at such a young age. It kind of
molded me with like discipline and having structure
and definitely for training. Like I've been training
since I can remember, you know, we were trained
annually. So it was, yeah, it was very serious
business and having that responsibility of, you
know, we were there to help others and, you know,
just always being prepared to respond to any
kind of emergency. Yeah. So what about career
aspirations? Were you already thinking of law
enforcement? Was there something else when you
were in the high school age? Oh, no. Clearly
in high school, I just was having fun. I wasn't
thinking of anything. But when I went to college,
I actually wanted to be a doctor. a pediatric
doctor, believe it or not. And I went into college
as pre -med and then I realized how much work
it was actually going to take and how much studying.
And I was like, I'm going to be undecided for
a couple of years. So I did that. And then I
went down the psychology. route and that was
really what i was fixed on and i really seemed
to love and i knew i would have to go on to graduate
studies because with a bachelor's in psychology
there you know it's one of those where you really
need to move on further to further your education
and get a master's or something higher for to
be able to really do work in the field so i eventually
went back to get my master's once i had started
the police department and i was young in my 20s
so i was bad like you know balancing the two
what made you go into the police department when
you're on the psychology road oh i you know so
when you're in your 20s you know how we all think
we have it all figured out and we think we know
everything about life yet we haven't spent a
day in our lives in the real world that was me
i thought okay i definitely wanted to go to the
fbi so i thought at the time and so my thinking
because i didn't really have anyone in my family
who's ever been in law enforcement I thought
that maybe it would be better if I went and did
a municipal, had a municipal experience by working
at a local police department and that that would
show that I have experience. And so when I would
apply to the FBI, that they would then take me,
you know, not realizing, no, actually, they like
to take you right out of college, too. So that
was what I thought. I didn't know any better.
So I was my plan was let me go to the police
department. get the experience i'll go back to
grad school and then i'll apply to the fbi and
then you realize yeah no life doesn't really
always work the way you think and you know before
i knew it i was already in the police department
for so long and it was kind of hard to walk away
and start all over go through a whole new academy
again and you know all that you know that goes
into it so i stayed with the police department
What lit that fire for the FBI? Was it Agent
Starling or was there another inspiration? You
know, I don't know. I just think I I don't know.
I can't remember really what it was exactly,
but I just thought, I don't know, maybe the FBI
is just the way to go again in their 20s. You
don't know anything you think, you know. So I
was just, you know, kind of trying to figure
it out as I went along. And this is kind of where
I landed. Well, you touched on before about seeing
some of the dark side of our communities that
we're all exposed to in our profession. You've
gone through the lifeguarding route. You're kind
of on this career path. What was your on -ramp
experience like when you actually kind of saw
behind the proverbial curtain in Chicago? before
I got on the job, meaning as I was younger? Well,
no, really when you got on the job. For me, I
grew up on a farm in England, had a pretty amazing
adventure in my life up to that point. But when
I put the uniform on, that's when I was like,
oh, there's another complete side to society
that I've never seen before. What was yours?
I mean, in the city of Chicago, I would assume
it might be quite striking the difference between
the two. So I was born and raised in the city,
so that city life wasn't new to me. And I thought
I was pretty well, I grew up in a pretty diverse
area, obviously very diverse ethnicities, all
of that. I thought I was pretty well -rounded
culturally. And then when I got on the job, and
by the way, when I grew up, I grew up in a pretty...
you know decent neighborhood hard -working middle
class um everybody you know we still went out
in front and played with our friends and played
tag and all those things that you know you you
would do you play till the lights the street
lights came on um so yeah but when i got on the
job i definitely went to some tougher areas where
i really wasn't exposed to that like some of
those things those crimes those um violent situations.
And that for me was kind of like a culture shock.
And I was like, wow, oh, wow. I had never really
been exposed to shootings. I had never really
been exposed to high drug populated areas. So
for me, I thought, oh, wow, I thought I had kind
of been exposed. Clearly not enough. And what
about the mental health conversation when you
went in? That was kind of like mid -2000s, wasn't
it? So what was the conversation, if anything,
for a young police cadet at that time? Oh, what
mental health conversation? Like, no, not at
all. I got on in 2004. There wasn't a conversation.
I do remember at one point there was something
where they were trying to kind of introduce us
to. a couple of mental health diagnoses regarding
the public like you may run into individuals
who you may have to deal with that are not cooperative
who are drunk right but then you may run across
somebody who maybe has like bipolar disorder
or maybe schizophrenia and so this is what you
might want to consider this is what that might
kind of look like behavior wise and that was
it that was the end And what about at that time
on the streets? You know, obviously now as we
sit here, fentanyl and there's a couple other,
Trank, some of the ones that are really ravaging
our communities at the moment. What were you
seeing in the communities back then? Back then,
you know, obviously marijuana was something that
was not legal. So that was something very common,
especially when you did a lot of traffic, if
you did traffic stops or you came across that.
In the areas that I dealt with, it was very much
heroin, the crack epidemic at the time. That's
really what I was seeing more than anything when
I started. So as you progress through, when did
you start seeing your psychology journey and
your law enforcement journey start to overlap
and realize that even the people that you were
working alongside, maybe even yourself? needed
the same conversation so very early on in my
career it was actually the suicide rates and
the um how often the suicides were occurring
where i started to realize oh my gosh we really
have a problem here um psychologically i started
to really pay attention to a lot of the chatter
in response to all the suicides that would occur
and that's what really kind of triggered all
of this and It was really seeing and hearing
how the chatter and roll call in the station
and all around amongst us officers. I started
to realize, wow, there's really a lot of questions
and there's this huge gap of knowledge around
suicide that exists and no one was addressing
it. And we were just kind of all trying to get
answers to certain questions because we weren't
understanding how this would happen. What caused
it? Why continue to be such an issue for some
individuals, right? Some people were taking their
lives and others weren't. So that's really for
me from a psychological standpoint where I started
to really start having my own questions. And
I really wanted to get further involved in trying
to get to the root of the problem. When you say
the suicide rate, are you talking about in the
community that you were serving or actually within
your own community? Actually, no, within our
own community of first responders, specifically
for police officers at the time. But I also knew
firemen and paramedics and dispatchers and military
that were taking their life. But for sure, at
the time, specifically, it was in my own agency
amongst my own fellow officers. When I look back
at the timeline. And as far as my awareness of
it and what I saw in the people that I surround
myself with, it seemed like it wasn't until about
2016 -ish when there was some events. There's
one local firefighter, fire chief that took his
own life and he had a Facebook post that took
off. And that was, I would say, one of the catalysts
really that got this conversation going. But
that's not even 10 years ago, nine years ago.
So such a short time. When was this realization?
And then what was the environment as far as the
stigma that was suppressing these statistics
and these conversations happening? So for me,
early on, I would say within the first two to
three years is when I really started to pay attention
to how often we were hearing, oh, there was another
individual that took his life. And we have a
pretty big department in Chicago. So it wasn't
just like in my actual district, which is what
we call like a precinct or station. It didn't
have to be from ours. It was anywhere in the
city, any precinct, any unit. And it was just
pretty devastating. Even if we didn't know the
individual, we didn't know, we never really worked
with the individual. It was just so painful.
And then when you did know somebody that was
reacting to. to that death that actually knew
the individual it was just that much more heartbreaking
um and no it was just there was no talk about
it no conversations just questions and assuming
what caused it right everyone was always looking
for a cause of of death in a sense right like
what well oh well you know i heard it was because
john was going through a divorce you know as
It's to say that, you know, the divorce is what
caused the suicide. And for me, I was like, I'll
never forget it. Very early on, I was just kind
of like, wow, that I know we have a high divorce
rate in our field, but. man, if that were the
case, then we're all going to be killing ourselves.
Like, this is crazy. So for me, I felt like there's
something missing. Like, there's more to this.
There has to be. There's just no way it could
be because of that one particular thing. And
so sure enough, as I continued on with my studies
and research and all of that, that's where I
came to learn that, yeah, it's a lot more than
people understand, than people think that really
contributes to an individual getting to this
point. So walk me through, again, the kind of
evolution of your psychology journey. Now you're
actually wearing the uniform. Where did you go
academically and where did that take you as far
as starting to identify the multiple factors
that contribute to suicide? So I went back to
get my master's degree in forensic psychology.
I also had to do 700 hours of clinical work for
that field. And then I became interested in really
just continuing the work within trauma and suicide
for first responders. And I ended up getting
certified to do suicide psychological autopsies
as an investigator. So I went through an association
where I had to go through training and submit
cases and just go through the whole process once
I was certified. And then I started to do these
psychological autopsies on cases of other first
responders whose families I would approach about
the work that I'm doing and why I'm doing it
to try to get more information and try to navigate
and figure out, is there a way that we can maybe
start reducing these suicides, turn this around?
provide a more proactive approach instead of
being so reactive. Because at the time then,
even now still, our approach to suicide is simply
reactive. And all we tend to do is have a suicide
occur. And this is anywhere in the country. And
I've seen this through all agencies. You have
the suicide, it occurs, everyone has a reaction
to it, mostly an emotional response. And everyone
understands and agrees that this is a horrific,
worst case scenario that can happen. However,
five to seven days after we've laid the person
to rest, we're back to business as usual. And
then we wait for the next one to happen. And
when it does, it happens exactly the same way
with the same response. And that's all we're
doing. And so it's kind of like, you know, everyone
understands what the definition of insanity is.
yet we keep living it every single day no one's
really trying to get to the bottom of understanding
like why why does this happen how does this happen
is there anything that we can potentially do
like really understand especially through those
cases of the individuals that unfortunately we've
lost um how we owe it to them and their families
how can we get to the bottom of understanding
okay let's take this case what happened here
You know, what was going on with the individual?
Is there anything that we could potentially put
in place to intervene, to be more proactive so
that, you know, this doesn't continue to happen
maybe as often as it is? And so that's really
where my journey began. And I've continued to
conduct those psychological suicide autopsies.
The reactive element, I think, is exactly what
we suffer from in the fire, especially like law
enforcement. There's an element of prevention,
you know, whether you're putting a speed trap
out and people are slowing down or there's a
cop and you probably prevented an accident there.
For us, you've got yourself in whatever predicament
medically, physically, and then you call us.
I'm having my worst day. Firefighters come and
please mitigate and unfuck the situation. But
we've got that, you know, the people that are
in our leadership started in a fire academy.
They didn't start in a leadership academy. They
didn't start in a proactive think tank. And so
we've been groomed to be reactive. And I see
this at the top now. And I see this in this conversation.
And I'm so glad that you said that because locally,
they've lost. The department that protects my
family has lost four people in uniform to suicide
in four years. A fifth one survived their attempt.
And a sixth one had left the agency, I think,
not too long ago and then went to another agency
and took his own life. So technically, that's,
you know, five actual and one attempted in four
years. And they just stick their head in the
sand and keep doing the same thing. And they've
been exposed to some of the proactive solutions.
And this is, you know, what's so... There's a
Desmond Tutu quote. It says, we spend so much
time pulling people out of the river, we forget
to go upstream and find out why they're falling
in in the first place. And this is what we need
to do as a profession. Yeah, absolutely. There
are as I do these, I start to see because I really
go really deep into an individual's life from
the time of death as far back as I need to go.
In some cases, I will reach, you know, will tap
into childhood. I know a lot of people are like,
oh, you know, that was back when I was a kid.
That was a long time ago. I'm an adult now. Like
I got through all of that. And it's like, OK,
that's what you think and that's what you say.
However, I have seen how. A lot of individuals,
most individuals, a lot of their childhood experiences,
childhood traumas and all of that really have
an effect, an impact on who they are today. And
still, even as you're a 30, 40, 50 year old individual,
there are still impacts from childhood that you
think you've gotten over that don't affect you.
And they really do. They continue to affect you.
They really mold how you. your behaviors and
how the you know the decisions you make and how
you move around in life yeah it was really interesting
i had a guy on jake clark who's uh from the the
founder of saver warrior and he's the first person
that actually really made me think about early
life for us and then you start learning that
you know i know this is kind of a generalization
but a lot of us our aces you know our adverse
childhood experience scores are six as are many
military members, as are many incarcerated men
and women. And so if you think about it, you
had struggles when you were young, you know,
that can send you obviously down a dark path
of addiction and alcoholism when you're young,
or it can send you down the path of, well, I'm
going to be a warrior. I'm going to cover myself
in armor and I'm going to be the protector. I'm
going to be so busy that I don't have to think
about that thing. I'm going to bury it down.
So it makes so much sense that so many of us
have this. And to turn your head away from the
formative years, you're missing such a huge piece
of this puzzle. Yeah, I find that a lot of first
responders and military, we tend to have had
something one way or another. And it doesn't
have to be severe, but somehow something in our
young childhood years and that early adulthood,
something. happened, something struck us, something
really impacted us where, and a lot of the times
it's trauma of some, to some degree, again, it
doesn't have to be super severe, but where now
we want to help others. not have to experience
whatever that was, you know, and we want to be
able to be there to protect others from what
maybe we've experienced, something along those
lines. And I do love that these individuals want
to do good for the world and, you know, we all
want to help. However, you know, people don't
really believe this saying that. you know if
you can't if you don't help yourself you can't
help others like you're no good to others and
so the problem becomes that you know i know people
we've gone through things and want to help others
but if you haven't unpacked all your and you
haven't gotten through it all and you haven't
processed your own traumas your own issues and
try to work on yourself um it's only going to
continue to build it doesn't just stop and pause
and all of a sudden you're just magically like
great you're gonna have more issues to deal with
um other people's traumas and problems and things
you experience in this line of work it just adds
to what you already uh what you already haven't
dealt with and so that's where we start to see
the issues people not processing and dealing
with their own issues And yet we want to help
others. And that's so great and noble. But you
really have to focus and make yourself good and
better before you can take care of anyone else.
And that's just how that's the reality of life.
It's been really interesting. I've interviewed
over a thousand people now. And so I'm not exaggerating.
A third, if not a half of those people have been
at that point. And there's such a strong correlation
between people that got to the absolute darkest
point. Some of them went through their attempt
and they survived. Kevin Hines on the Golden
Gate Bridge and Emma Benoit shot herself as 18
years old. And now they're amazing beacons of
light in the mental health world. But almost
every single one of those, they had this childhood
trauma and it was unaddressed. And I think this
is where we need to put hope in the post -traumatic
growth conversation is just because you had trauma
doesn't mean that now you're going to spiral
downwards and fall apart as a first responder.
It's just that you weren't given the environment
when you were younger to work through that. I
was so fortunate. I talk about this all the time.
I had a lot of stuff when I was young, but I
grew up on a farm. My dad was a vet. a veterinary
surgeon. So we were healing animals. I'm one
of five kids. We ate around the dining room table
all the time. I was surrounded by therapy animals,
basically. I was in nature. I had fresh air.
I had community. So all the things that we know
work by a sheer, you know, Russian roulette that
I was born in that family. I had equally and
oppositely things that allowed me to process
the bad things as we were going along. So I think
this is what's so encouraging about. the type
of people that find themselves in uniform is
that you can be more resilient from this. Once
you identify it and you find your toolbox to
work through it, you're going to be an even better
police officer, firefighter, dispatch after you've
done the work. Yeah, absolutely. I think one
of the conversations, I do appreciate that we're
living in a society today where we're you know
people are trying to address mental health especially
for our populations right and the work that we
do they're starting to realize aha actually they
are human beings and the way it works is that
you know these things will catch up to them it
will be difficult to deal with um and that and
that's pretty normal right because if we were
machines or robots it would be different but
we're not so all this does have an effect one
way or another on you even if it's minor or,
you know, major. I think I do appreciate we're
having more of the talk about mental health and
all, but no one's really touching on suicide.
And I think what really needs to be understood
is that when we talk about trauma, we talk about
mental health, we talk about all of that. It's
important for people to understand that if we
get ahead of it, if we start being proactive,
we deal with those things. instead of worrying
about the stigma or for whatever reason, we just
keep trying to just shove it down and be in denial
of it. If we deal with it and we deal with it
in a healthy manner and we deal with it early
on, you won't have to worry about the likelihood
of you falling into crisis, right? Because you're
dealing with it early on. It's when people have
no... healthy coping mechanisms or tools for
self -care when you're not dealing with it and
you fall into crisis it's just that much harder
to come out of and then now you're the likelihood
of you continuing to spiral even further into
a darker deeper hole in the direction of suicide
is greater so people need to start thinking about
you know not worried about oh what are people
going to think of me or you know the stigma People
need to start thinking about how with anything
else, if we had something medically wrong with
us, for the most part, no one's going to sit
there and say, yep, I'm just going to engage
in that one thing that's going to give me the
heart attack. Yeah, sign me up for it. No, you're
going to try in some way or another to avoid,
you know, something that you know will take you
in that direction. We need to start doing that
with mental health, just like when we do it for
any medical issue. So this is an interesting
question for you. I think we talked about this
when we spoke a few weeks ago, but. Through,
again, this constant education I'm getting through
speaking to all these amazing people, I started
realizing that the arguably insane test that
I kept taking, because I worked for four different
fire departments, it didn't make any sense to
me then. And so I started asking the people in
psychology, psychiatry, this test that we take,
and I discover it's called the Minnesota Multiphasic
Personality Interview. And I said, you know,
talk to me about the ability of that standalone
test to determine if I'm going to be a worthy
firefighter or police officer. So I'm going to
give you the mic. Talk to me about that test
and talk to me about its ability to, you know,
verify if we're the right kind of person and
we're mentally sound for a job in the first responder
professions. So it's interesting with that test.
Because I think what they're really looking for
is to see if, you know, we all have different
characteristics of all those different personalities.
Right. But I think they're trying to maybe weed
out like the ones that are really severe, specific
to one or another. I never really got why we
really focus so much on that exam as opposed
to. when we do the like fit for duty evaluations
where we're really trying to measure more so
like what your mental status is as far as like
that you're not suicidal that you're not a threat
to others and you're not trying to harm yourself
or others i think those make more sense for me
uh for me when i look at that um but yeah and
i think in our agency if i recall i don't really
recall that you know it was so long ago Um, but
that personality test, they didn't really push
that as much as, as much as they were trying
to measure, like whether you were, you know,
mentally, if you were, if you were of sound mind
in the sense that you weren't, you know, a threat
to yourself, to others, that you weren't suicidal,
um, that you weren't actually, um, uh, crimes
that you had committed that you're trying to
not disclose. drugs or any anything like that
that was like really more of the the concern
then i just interviewed a guy don who um uh dan
excuse me his name is dan who does background
checks now former law enforcement officer is
himself and this is kind of one thing that seems
like might be a better fit is you're going to
do a physical test because this person fit enough
you're going to do a written test so they understand
the job you're going to do a thorough background
check which you know should show okay they've
done this or that or you know whatever is this
detrimental is this something that we can overlook
because it was minor and it was you know 15 years
ago whatever it is but that tells you about the
person but the mmpi which i'm told usually in
psychology is used forensic psychologist. So
with a gamut of other tests to give an overall
view of a person, rather than giving that and
or the polygraph, which I did three times as
well, which is, you know, really interesting
magic show. Yeah. You know, you don't get that
one. No, I mean, you know, we don't do it. Yeah.
Yeah. You're grooming people to life, basically.
But back to the point. So you've got all this
money, thousands per recruit. To me, why not
take that money and give these recruits X amount
of counseling sessions at the front door, their
first year. So now you're giving them an opportunity
to start processing what they brought in. You're
normalizing the mental health conversation from
day one. And you've removed any barrier to entry
because they already know Susie or Steve now.
And anytime they need a tune up. They know exactly
where to go. So to me, when you're talking about
that culture and that stigma, if you've got a
new recruit and then the academy and then day
one, you're already talking about this is as
important as the PT is. I think you could change
the entire culture then. Yeah, there's been a
lot of agencies that I've come across around
the country that are really that particular conversation
has come up. The question of do we mandate? And
not just like in the beginning in the recruit
status, like in the academy, but even in the
whole department, do we mandate that everybody
has to see a clinician at least once? And if
you kind of umbrella it over everybody, it kind
of like helps with that stigma. And there's a
lot of different debates around that. Right.
And then, you know, because we are most of these
agencies around the country, they are. unionized
and they have the union that, you know, there's
all these rights and laws and all of that. I
think at the very least, what we should be doing
is just having the conversation about, first
of all, just about mental health, which we're
starting to do a little bit more, but really
just starting to educate everybody, provide the
psychoeducation. on what it is that this all
looks like right because we can just say oh go
get help go go talk to somebody go go do this
and most of us who are not in this field are
like what does that really mean right like you
can tell me go get help okay from who and what
kind of help what are my options how does that
even begin like do i pick up a phone do i call
someone do i google it like people really don't
know this information and so when i actually
um started to do this work and I started to see
a lot of the suicide autopsy data, one of the
things that I really started to find was the
amount of individuals that really just have no
knowledge on things that you would think, oh,
well, don't we all know that? No, we just don't.
We assume we do, right? There's so much that
people don't understand that they're going through.
Like they don't really realize, like we may know
something's off with us. We may know things aren't
right, but we don't know exactly what it is.
And then we don't know who to turn to because
we're the breed of individuals that are always
in control, right? We're always the ones that
everyone comes to for answers and for decisions
to be made. So now when we find ourselves in
a space where we're not sure what to do or what's
going on, that's really hard to deal with. That's
a very difficult pill to swallow. And so for
us, it's just easier to be like, no, no, no,
I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. And just be in
denial of it and just try to look in the other
direction. So I'm finding that there's a huge
knowledge gap when it comes to our own self -care,
mental health, you know, all the way, like everything
that contributes and puts you at risk for suicide.
You know, it's not until people are so deep in
it that now it's like, oh shit, like, what do
we do? How do we, what do we, how do we come
out of this? Or no one knows really what to do.
We don't know what to do for others. You know
what I mean? Who are in those situations, our
fellow coworkers. So I think what, what I started
to see was that there was a gap of knowledge
that needed to be filled. And by providing that
psychoeducation, just like our agencies will
provide any kind of training for us on. I don't
know, as police officers, here's how you're going
to handle this weapon. No one threw a gun at
me and said, go figure it out, little 23 -year
-old Liz. I mean, everything from how to handle
the weapon, how to disassemble it, how to clean
it, how to shoot, everything. I was taught. They
gave me the skill set. Same with fire. You know,
they don't just throw you on the fire truck and
say, figure out how this thing works and what
to do. They walk you through all that training.
You go through such intense training. Why aren't
we doing that when it comes to our self -care
and the fact that, hey, if you do this job for
a while, there are going to be experiences that
you're going to have, right, from the job that
may be kind of. you know, gets in the way of
like your personal life and vice versa and how
to handle that and what are some possible tips
and ways and options for you to be able to balance
it all and navigate the traumas from the job,
the traumas before the job that, you know, will
now be triggered from things that you're dealing
with in your personal life and the job and so
on. We need to give these people the tools and
the knowledge so that they can cope and deal
with their issues in a healthy manner, get through
it and just move on in a healthy way so that
they can continue to work these careers, eventually
retire. And the most important thing is once
they're done with these jobs and they retire,
they can actually continue to live these healthy,
amazing lives. It'll actually be the beginning
of a new chapter for them to live an even more
amazing life after such service to society. I've
been saying this recently. You and I, we're standing
on the shoulders of giants when it comes to our
professions, whether it was firearms training
and tactics for you, whether it was the SCBA
and the extrication training for me. And I think
that our generation now, the gift that we can
give to the next one is actually the wellness,
the mental health, the shifts, all these things
that we can start fixing now. So this next generation
of young people enters a profession. They've
got the tactics that's constantly evolving that
was off our ancestors. And now we've started
fighting for the mental health, for the fitness
standards, for the work week that allows performance
and longevity and keeps marriages intact. So
I think that we really can be pioneers. All of
us that kind of came on 20 -ish years ago, it's
up to us now to make those same innovations that
our forefathers did. Yeah, I think one thing
that I notice about this younger group nowadays
that is coming on the job, like, you know, around
this time today, they're younger, their generation,
they're actually. uh willing to hear it right
when if we're if we're getting them early on
at the entry level at recruit status in the academy
um they're actually we're normalizing it for
them early on it's not like you know because
once you get out there and you you know you you
hear the the mindset of like oh you know tough
it up kid you know like you're weak if you know
that now you're kind of molding that you know
um their way of thinking um and here's the thing
i can say that i appreciate um 21 years ago when
i got on this job a lot of those old -timers
that had that mindset of like toughen up kid
you know like shut up and you know speak when
spoken to it was different it was very different
i will say i could appreciate the fact that you
know i learned so much from those individuals
and yeah there was a lot of uh there was resilience
and and they wanted you to kind of you know like
be tough to a certain degree however what i say
to old -timers and people even before those old
-timers is that the the job the way of life you
know the world has evolved and as the world evolves
we need to evolve so i don't trash the way that
things were done 20 years ago 21 years ago i
mean that's just all they had right that's the
way it was because that's the way they were trained
A lot of those ways did work, but a lot of them
didn't. And what I will say is the level of crime,
the gruesomeness, the violence to these crimes,
how often, how severe. the school shootings for
instance that's not something that our forefathers
necessarily dealt with back back back back in
the day right in the 50s and the 60s and so on
so because it's evolved this is like intense
now it's so much more complex and it's so much
more violent we see it the accessibility we don't
even have to just be at the job to see it We
have it in front of our face every day on our
phones, on social media. We got that vicarious
trauma because we're seeing things live streamed.
It's crazy. So as the world evolves, my message
is we have to evolve. So maybe it worked. And
in some cases it did back then for some people.
But what we're living in today, it's just not
going to cut it anymore. So we have to actually,
we're kind of like being forced into like, hey,
after a while, this is going to catch up with
you and it's going to be a problem. So we do
have to deal with it. We have to evolve and we
have to just kind of change our approach. What
is the contrast between the demand for your profession
when you first came on, how competitive it was
versus how it is as we sit here in 2025? Oh,
man. The demand. I think definitely nowadays
it's so difficult. First of all, it's just such
a difficult time for law enforcement specifically,
you know, and I love our firemen and most people
do. But unfortunately, that's just not the same
sentiment towards the police, towards law enforcement.
So I think it's definitely like. the morale has
definitely plummeted more. And I think a lot
of it, there's so many different reasons. Leadership,
I think is one of the biggest issues as to why
like they allow that to happen, right? Like you
need a strong leader to really kind of lead the
pack. And I think the biggest issue nowadays
is just having so much. chatter so many it's
kind of like too many chefs in the kitchen if
you will um everyone's got something to say everyone's
critiquing everything and so I can't imagine
now um having to be a beat cop a beat officer
on patrol because I'm at a different unit now
but what they have to deal with because now it's
like it's not just your supervisors in the department
your agency critiquing or that you have to answer
up to it's the public and the fear of you know
did i do what i was supposed to even though this
is how i was trained and i'm following protocol
and i think that's very difficult makes it very
difficult to do the job you know what i mean
you're getting you're getting pulled in different
directions with all that noise and yet you're
still expected to do the job every day and most
officers um and most first responders the majority
of them do a fantastic job every single day they
selflessly get up they get out there they deal
with some of the worst from people and they continue
to do this every day even if they're frustrated
and tired of that they still get up every day
and they do the job um and i just think that
it's unfortunate um that A lot of people in society
really just don't get how much people sacrifice
doing this type of work as a first responder
every day. How much of their own mental, emotional,
physiological sacrifices that they make to do
this job and how it catches up and how it really
just tears people's family. I mean, they just
continue to do it. And I don't think people realize
it until they actually do it, right? Until they're
in those shoes that they actually understand
how much this first responder job takes a toll
on people. Absolutely. What's been interesting
trying to unpack the recruitment crisis from
the fire side is as you're probably familiar
with, I don't know if this is the case in Chicago,
but most of the country, they work 56 hour work
weeks. And now you add this recruitment crisis
that a lot of the firefighters are working 80
hour weeks. And obviously, as you can imagine,
I'm sure we'll dive into sleep deprivation. You
know, there's so many elements of that that are
so detrimental to their own health, to their
mental health, to their relationships. And what
we're seeing is this Gen Z, this young generation
are actually going to the trades because as you
said, everyone's got that device. They have this
information in front of them. So even college,
they're looking at that going, well, it's $50
,000 worth of debt and a piece of paper that
doesn't guarantee me a job. That doesn't sound
very good. I think I'm going to go be a welder.
I can do a year's training and then I make, you
know, six figures or whatever it is. So we have
a workforce that wants to do what we do, but
they value their mental health. They value their
physical health. They value their relationships.
So whether it's my profession and this is starting
to happen in Florida and some other places now
going to a healthier work week, which is attracting
people back into the profession, which is filling
those vacancies. And now they're fully staffed
with a healthier work week. These young people
are going. That actually looks good. But if we
don't fix it, like many agencies and we just
bury our head in the sand or we don't support
our police officers when they're doing, as you
said, the right thing and it's just being politicized,
then we're driving these young recruits away
from the profession. And, you know, we're at
a point now where you either fix the things that
are broken or you don't have a police department
anymore. So I, being an incurable yet angry optimist,
think this is the perfect time to make change.
But I think that the public need to understand
that if we don't support our police officers,
especially, and we don't kind of push back against
this politicking, then they're going to be unprotected.
And imagine calling 911 and you just get a dial
tone because there is no police department anymore.
Yeah, I've thought of this many a times. You
know, what I've learned is, and this is with
working with the public and everything, people
can sit here and have all kinds of opinions all
day, every day. I mean, really, they do. Until
you've actually been in a situation where you
need help or you've been a victim of a crime,
a victim of anything horrendous, actually, you
don't really get it. you know people can have
all their opinions on you know their political
opinions their gun opinions the police opinions
all of that you can have all those opinions that's
fine we welcome them what i what i tend to see
though is how people's opinions will change drastically
from negative to a uh maybe i should kind of
re -evaluate um when the same individuals and
the same issues that you're complaining about
work in your favor. Meaning, you know, you can
dislike the police or any first responder or
have views of us and saying that, you know, I
mean, I've been called everything in the book
and so have many of my fellow officers, murderers,
all of that. You name it. We're abusive. etc
when the majority of us have never violated people's
rights let alone been brutal and horrible individuals
a day in our career right there are bad apples
in every occupation let's be clear about that
think about it any occupation you can think of
there are some bad apples and that's just what
it is unfortunately right now the climate is
you know majority of the police just don't really
fit that positive mold right and so However,
you may feel whatever you think about, you know,
whether you wanted to fund the police, abolish
the police, whatever you want to do. I will tell
you that, you know, when things happen and you
really need us to be the ones running towards
those bullets, like at those school shootings
or any kind of like mass critical incident, you
know, you're at a concert and all of a sudden
someone, you know. attacks whatever it could
be attacking a group with knives or shooting
or whatever um it's pretty interesting how those
those opinions and and all of that really changes
people start to see and understand like wow you
know what i really never took into account um
what it's like to have to when it's really happening
and it's it's really going down with a critical
incident how no matter how scared you are because
again we're human beings and if someone says
they're any cop says they're they're not scared
they're lying we we are scared we just fight
or flight right kicks in and we have to act and
we're trained to even though it's scary to go
proceed and handle the situation you know and
we have families at home too that we're thinking
about um And we do that. And people don't realize
that any of this until they're in the situation
where like, oh, my gosh, my life flashed before
my eyes or I was a victim of something or this
was such a scary situation. And, you know, until
we saw how these individuals stepped in and saved
us or brought us to safety or they protected
us, did we not realize up until then that, wow,
there's a lot more that goes into it. So that's
one of the most interesting things that I have
learned throughout my years and I still see.
And sometimes, you know, I'm not going to sit
here and argue with people. They can have their
opinions. I'm not offended if people, quite frankly,
say they dislike the police. And I'm like, hey,
you know, I understand there might be some reason.
There usually is some reason as to why you feel
that way or any other first responder. But what
I do try to, you know, emphasize is, you know.
Don't be so quick to throw such opinions on what
you may have seen on a three second clip that
people are putting up or whatever. You don't
know the whole story and you actually haven't
lived it. And, you know, because if you find
yourself there one day, you might you might reevaluate
and be like, you know what? I didn't consider
like one, two, three, four, five, six, seven
factors that now maybe changes my perspective.
As you were doing this kind of analysis, this
autopsy of all these suicides, what impact did
organizational betrayal have? Because this is
something that seems to come up over and over
again and again. There's no one factor. But when
you think about it tribally, we put on a uniform.
We have our department's patch on our shoulder.
That's our tribe. We will literally die for the
people that we're serving or the person to the
left or the right of us in that situation. So
that's such an incredible bond. And then when
an agency turns their back on an individual in
whatever capacity it is, that can be extremely
detrimental emotionally from what I've been told
and what I've seen personally. What is your kind
of perspective on that element? So in all of
the cases, actually, that I've conducted the
psychological suicide autopsies, There are various
factors that really contribute to the individual
getting to this point. As I like to call them,
interdepartmental issues. It could be betrayal.
It could be whatever. It's a variety of different
things within the agency. Those are definitely
factors that contribute. It's not the only sole
factor, but it could be definitely one of the
contributing. And I have found that. I mean,
it depends really what every case is. It's just
case by case. It's so different. It varies. Right.
I can have more possible weight in the area of
interpersonal relationship issues. Right. Where
those that was much heavier, the issues there
and then maybe possibly mental health and sleep
deprivation. having been more of the bigger,
heavier issues, right, that really contributed
versus the interdepartmental or vice versa, right?
So it very much varies. But I will say that suicide
or not, we are seeing a lot of impact that, you
know, departmental betrayal has on. on the members.
It's heavy, absolutely. It's something that people
think about and worry about every day. I mean,
it really has an impact on the job that you're
going to do day to day, right? People don't want
to be crucified for doing, if in fact they are
doing exactly what they were trained to do and
they're following protocol, but because of opinions
or I don't know, influences outside of the agency
and outside of policy. Yeah, absolutely. That
in any psychological normal mindset, like people
would hesitate and be like, wow, I don't want
to be the next, you know, storyline. I don't
want to be the next frontline, you know, headliner.
So there's definitely impact from that. You touched
on sleep deprivation, which is a big, big topic
that I talk about a lot. And again, going back
to the work weeks that we work 56, 80, you know,
and then you have all these people on the show
from the sleep medicine world, from the psychology,
psychiatry world. And we hear about the direct
correlation between sleep deprivation and, you
know, suicide ideation, addiction, all these
other areas. As you're doing all these forensic
analyses, what was the impact of sleep deprivation
in these cases? Oh my gosh, it's one of the highest,
one of the higher risk factors up there. You
know, I have some like pretty acute risk factors,
you know, at the top of the list. And then some
that are, you know, little, there's still risks,
but you know, you have your top ones, right?
And sleep deprivation definitely falls in there.
It's interesting to me how with agencies, pretty
much any agency across the country, if we engage
in any kind of alcoholic um uh beverage right
that we may drink um on the job if we were to
do that this is just a hypothetical situation
if i engaged in drinking while i'm on duty absolutely
my judgment it'd be fair to say that that's going
to impair my judgment um so it's absolutely not
allowed um and we would be in trouble if caught
right under any kind while we're impaired. And
so when we look at studies, when it comes to
sleep, right, we have found that in some cases,
if you're so sleep deprived, it's almost equivalent
to an individual who has been, who is intoxicated,
right, under the influence and has that impaired
judgment. So I'm constantly wondering, how is
it that If we're impaired, right, if our judgment
is so impaired under the influence of alcoholic
beverages, but it also can be just as impaired
from sleep deprivation, how are we not putting
more emphasis on that, on sleep deprivation?
How are we not looking at it and saying, you
know what, maybe this is like, yeah, this isn't
a good thing. Maybe we need to focus more on
trying to. you know push and give the information
right psycho educate everyone on what the true
real effects of sleep deprivation is and what
that looks like like really just kind of give
that information and and like spell it out like
draw it out however we need to really just emphasize
that and we don't we're just kind of like yeah
whatever i mean you know and how age that's another
thing that i really um focus on is What we went
through when we were sleep deprived when we were
in our 20s versus sleep deprivation in your 40s
and 50s, that is a whole nother ballgame. Like
you just cannot function the way you used to.
Age really plays a big role. And, you know, we're
very stuck. Sometimes we're a stubborn breed
and we're stuck in our ways. And it's very hard
for human beings to adapt to change and understand
that like. The body you had when you were in
your 20s versus the body that you have now in
your 40s and 50s. And listen, it's different.
It really is. And the impacts that you will have
from sleep deprivation in those different age
ranges is significant. And so, you know, if I
was able to handle five hours or four hours of
sleep. In my 20s, you know, I'm out all night
and then I go straight to work. You know, that's
not the same thing when you're older or you have
more responsibilities, right? You have families
to take care of or other dependents that you
have. All these things really play a role. And
so I think people just don't know enough of it
to really truly understand it. And they just
kind of they go on autopilot. And until they're
in a situation that's detrimental to their health
or others. They don't realize it. They don't
get it. Well, this is what's so maddening is
that's been shown by one of the leading human
performance organizations in America to this
local department. They've got all these deaths.
And again, they just will not acknowledge the
sleep deprivation element. And go to this proactive
measure where they get, you know, more people
and then attract more people and fill these holes.
And now their firefighters are working a healthy
work week. Is it the only thing? No. But is it
a massive herd of elephants in the room? Of course
it is. And so this is what's, you know, really
startling to me. And it's just there's no other
way of saying this. If you have lost all those
people and you've been presented the information
and you're unwilling to act on that, then now
we're talking about courage or cowardice in leadership
at this point. Like if there's literally you
buried your own people and you still refuse to
change, then now this is to me where it's like,
well, you need to step aside and let someone
to actually lead them because it's, you know,
if it happened once is one thing, but four times
and you're still turning your head. I mean, come
on. Sometimes I. and this is just my opinion
sometimes in leadership roles in our professions
fire police paramedics all of that i feel that
sometimes listen we were hired to do a job and
to carry out certain policy and make sure certain
procedures are followed and all of that um and
we do that job and we do it well and most of
the people who are in leadership you know they
Pretty much get to that point. They can handle
that. But thinking outside the box or having
additional credentials in areas like this to
really, truly understand, like they just don't
know. They don't get it. They don't understand
that because they don't have that background.
And I think that's what makes it challenging.
Right. So I can sit here if someone were to present
anything from a psychological. perspective I
can really pretty much get it and understand
it and I'm following because I have that background
unfortunately some leaders they don't have anything
more than the skill set to do the job that they're
doing right and to be to be able to make sure
policy is followed and to do the job of a police
officer of a firefighter and anything beyond
that they're really not skilled at it they don't
know and even when people who are the actual
experts in that in those areas present it to
them again they still just it's like they don't
really get it or they don't want to get it because
they're just so focused on something else and
that's unfortunate like nowadays in leadership
you have to kind of be i think well -rounded
in various aspects right not just the duties
of your job. Like there are so many other issues
that are happening. So you kind of have to maybe
have a little more understanding about how human
beings function and trauma and how that will
impact them. And so how sleep will like deprivation
will impact them and all of those things. Like
you have to, if you don't have the background
and knowledge on it, you have to maybe kind of.
take the time to listen to other experts that
are well -rounded in that area to kind of school
you a little bit, if you will, so that helps
with putting things in place that need to be
put in place. That's kind of what I think. No,
I agree completely. I think it comes down to
humility. You have to be humble. You have to
be like, I don't know about this. I've done this
for eight and a half years, and I'm continually
learning from people like you. I'm a perpetual
student. But you start to see these actors, and
this is just it. These other people, this is
what they do for a living. Mental health, strength
and conditioning, back injuries, whatever it
is, this is their area of expertise. You were
a good firefighter or a paramedic or both, and
then you took some officer classes. But that
doesn't make you well -rounded, like you said.
all things human. So when there's clearly glaringly
an issue and you're losing people by droves,
you know, in the ground or out your back door,
as far as recruitment and retention, you've got
to have the humility to go. I don't know what
I'm doing. Let me find who does. And let me be
humble enough to actually listen rather than
check a box, close the book and then do absolutely
nothing. Let me find what. First, let me get
to the bottom of the problem, try to reevaluate,
find what works, like find something else instead
of continuing the same cycle. It's very difficult
in this type of work in these professions. We're
stubborn, right? We don't like change. We tend
to sometimes what I have found, too, is that
we do things. Right. And sometimes you're like,
why the hell are we doing it this way? This doesn't
make sense. You're like, this is how we've always
done it. And it's like, oh, my God, it's maddening.
This doesn't like just because this is how we've
always done it doesn't mean we have to keep going
this way. Like at some point, if we're actually
being presented with the fact that like this
isn't really working anymore or look at the results,
like it's just it's not making sense. Then somebody
has to stand up and be like, hey, we might have
to try something a little different, like just
adjust at the very least a little bit. And I
think that that's something that we need to start
seeing. And one of the things that drives me
just mad is when people cannot admit that they
don't know something. Like, understand it doesn't
make you an idiot. It doesn't make you less of
a person. It's okay because here's a little secret.
Not everyone knows everything. I have yet to
meet the person who knows absolutely everything
about anything in this world and in life. There's
always room for knowledge. There's always room
for improvement. We could be 90 years old, and
I guarantee you, I've talked to some 99 -year
-old people. They can still learn something new
in life, even at that age. So allow yourself,
cut yourself some slack, and it's okay. To admit
that you don't know something, go find the answer
or find someone who knows it. You know, don't
try to be a know -it -all. You know, to sit there
and focus on your pride and your ego because,
you know what I mean, that just doesn't get anyone
anywhere, especially in these professions. So
I think it's more of a humble and stronger individual
who will say, you know what, I'm not quite sure.
You know, this is beyond my scope because there
are going to be many things in life that are
beyond. your scope don't try to answer up for
it because you just want to sound like you know
you actually sound like an idiot when it's clear
that you have no knowledge no expertise in a
particular area but you want to just keep you
know trying to make decisions or keep talking
on something that you have no knowledge on um
i think once people start to understand that
like hey it's okay that i don't know anything
let me figure it out let me get someone who does
um i think that's more noble yeah I can say from
experience, I've watched it with this progressive
work week alone. Here's the secret sauce. The
people that have figured out a better way of
doing things, whether it's creating a wellness
program, whether it's a in -house mental health
program, whether it's this work week, those departments
want to help the rest of the nation. They want
to, you know, the rising tide lifts all ships.
Those departments bend over backwards to disseminate,
you know, information to help people, you know,
give them a blueprint. Well, this worked here.
We're not exactly the same size as you, but here's
the principles. Now you should be able to apply
it to your department. So it's humility. But
again, because we're so siloed as a profession
or professions and every city and county is kind
of on their own and some work well together and
some hate each other, whatever it is. In the
nation, there's people doing almost everything
that we struggle with really well. So we need
to have the humility to find out, okay, well,
who's doing strength and conditioning well? Who's
doing injury prevention well? Who's doing mental
health well? Who's doing the work week well?
Okay, well, then how did you do that? What were
the challenges? What would be in the results?
And there's people, I mean, I've got people on
this podcast for free. You just got to go online
and hit play and you can hear all these departments
and all these great leaders that have done this.
So this is the thing. It's just... Just being
humble enough to say, like you said, I don't
know it all. I don't know what I'm doing in this
particular area. Can someone help me? And then
someone over in the Northeast or the Southwest
or wherever it is will be like, hey, we figured
that out in Dallas and New York and wherever.
You want to try this? I'll show you what we did.
So this is the beautiful thing. This is the brotherhood
and sisterhood is sharing this information. And
I wish I wish that our national unions, I don't
know how it is in law enforcement, but in fire.
There isn't this communication network where
everyone's talking to each other. That's what
I was envisioning when I joined the union, you
know, 20 years ago. But so if we can't do that,
well, then and now we've got the internet, we've
got the virtual world, we've got social media.
So now we can knowledge share that way. But yeah,
I mean, the solutions are out there. We're having
a conversation with solutions right now. So just
having the humility to go, well, let me listen
to Liz. She sounds like she knows what she talks
about. Yeah, I think we're in such a great space
in this world where information can travel so
quickly and you can have so much actual great
information at your hands so quickly. And I think,
yeah, if there are definitely a lot of agencies
out there that are doing better, they're getting
it right. There are some that are kind of stuck
maybe in ways where it's like, you know, we could
improve. Um, but yeah, there's always definitely,
um, the opportunity to make, to get to the bottom
of what your issues are and try to improve them.
I mean, no one has the answers where, you know,
it's like, this is the exact way to like be successful
and it's all going to work out. No, but we can
definitely try, especially when, you know, we
see that what we're doing isn't working and it's
just causing more harm than it is any good. Well,
going back to the autopsies of the suicides,
one of the areas that this is just my own hypothesis,
but it makes a lot of sense. When you are a healthy
human being, when your mind is programmed the
way it's supposed to be. And you, for example,
we went to the top of a 20 story high rise and
we stood near the edge. There'd be that invisible
hand pushing you back going, what the hell are
you doing? Get back. You know, we're supposed
to thrive. We're supposed to procreate. We're
supposed to then protect our offspring. It's
in our DNA. When I think about not only the skewed
nature that you get as far as all these elements
that we've talked about, sleep deprivation and
unaddressed trauma and all the other factors
that I'm sure we'll get to some other ones in
a minute. Now this brain becomes miswired. And
now what I've heard from a lot of people on the
show is there's this feeling of burdensome. Like,
well, if I'm the reason for my family's pain
and if I just take myself out, then they'll be
happy. But I think there's still that hand. And
what's so sad is it would appear in a lot of
these suicide completions, alcohol is involved.
And if I think about being in my late teens,
early twenties and going to the clubs and drinking
and maybe ending. up going home with someone
and the next morning going, oh, I actually don't
think that person is very attractive. We know
alcohol can skew your perspective and it can
dull some of these senses. And it breaks my heart
because I wonder if some of these people, if
they were stone cold sober, would they have actually
gone through with it? So big old monologue before
the question, with all these suicides that you
did the autopsies for or you overviewed the autopsies,
what was the... the magnitude of alcohol involvement
in those attempts or those successes in that
particular example? That's an excellent question.
I'll put it to you like this. I have yet to have
a suicide where alcohol was not present within
the last 12 hours of the suicide completion.
It's interesting because We know that alcohol
and some substance drug abuse of some sort has
always been an issue within this population.
Right. And we know that it's a problem, but yet
no one wants to address it. I think for a couple
of reasons. One, it's just hard to address because
it's really. kind of embedded in our culture,
right? And on top of it, really no one knows
what to say about it and how to talk about it,
right? So I love that you bring this up because
this is one of the pieces because of this that
I keep seeing in the autopsies. I was like, this
is one of the pieces that really needs to be
tackled in the psychoeducation that I provide.
And in that, without going too much in depth
about it, The issue with alcohol isn't that we
are necessarily drinking, right? Because we're
all grown adults and we can engage in alcohol.
You can go to a, I don't know, a concert tonight
if you wanted to, and you wanted to have a beer
and that's fine. You can go out with your, have
a dinner, have a glass of wine, whatever. The
issue is why we are drinking. That's the main
problem. And that's what people aren't getting
to the bottom of. Um, it's why we're drinking.
And that's a question everyone should be, should
have an answer for. Am I drinking? Because I
don't know, I'm drinking maybe tonight out of
the whole week because I'm going out to dinner
with my friends and I wanted to like engage in
like, I don't know, two cocktails. And then I'm
going out dancing after my going to a distillery
to like have some kind of, um, you know, um,
what is it? Not bourbon. Oh, gosh. What's the
other alcohol? Anyway. Scotch, you mean? Okay.
Yeah. At a distillery. And I'm doing a tasting.
You know, that's totally different. When I am
having a hard time psychologically with intrusive
thoughts because of something that I experienced
on the job, like the. horrendous criminal sexual
assault of a child that i responded to on scene
whether i was a paramedic a fireman or a cop
or i took that call as a dispatcher and everything
about that scene what i heard what i saw what
i experienced is constantly coming back up to
me and playing over and over again like a video
that i can't shut off okay and the only way that
i find i'm able to is engaging in some amount
of alcohol right and it works because it does
shut that off and maybe it knocks me out to sleep
or not but otherwise it really does shut those
intrusive thoughts out okay we do find a temporary
solution for that right that does work however
what we're not realizing is that alcohol is a
depressant right there's that knowledge gap we're
not realizing that it's making the situation
worse for us in the sense that later the next
day you don't even have to be hung over okay
you will feel worse right um than you did while
before you took the alcohol and so now you're
going to want to throw more alcohol to achieve
the same thing that you did right to shut that
off now what we don't realize is that we're creating
dependence right because i got to keep doing
that in order to keep shutting those thoughts
off So it's how we're using alcohol as a coping
mechanism versus drinking because I don't know,
it's more of like a social once in a while thing.
Every day that I sit in that basement with a
handle of liquor and I have to actually like
up the amount of alcohol that I'm taking in,
right? Because we start to build some tolerance,
right? That's the issue that I'm turning to the
alcohol to deal with an issue. That's our problem.
That's why alcohol is a problem. It's not so
much the fact that like, oh, you had a glass
of wine or you had a couple of beers with your
buddies, you know, yesterday at a party, whatever.
No, it's the fact that we have these individuals
that are turning to it to self -medicate, right,
to cope with whatever it is that they're trying
to deal with in that way. And it causes a bigger
problem. Now, when people have been like completely
to the point, especially when they have enough
alcohol in them, that it's impairing them so
badly that, you know, there's a weapon around
and all of that. Absolutely. The likelihood for
you making some kind of out of your mind, your
judgments impaired, you got clouded thinking
and you maybe make a decision that, you know,
yeah, we question would the individual have.
done it. And I'm not saying that all there was,
here's what people have to understand. And it's
very crucial that they understand this for the
individuals that are taking their life by suicide.
It's not like I have never thought of suicide
or contemplated or had this thought run through
my mind ever before. But tonight, because I was
drunk and intoxicated, it happened. It doesn't
work that way. The thought, the, the contemplating.
of suicide has been there at some point for some
people it's been on and off for like a year for
months for weeks whatever but it is not something
that you you know we in suicide it definitely
is not where an individual wakes up life is great
there's never been any thought about this you've
never contemplated or even had the idea and suddenly
it just came up and you did it it doesn't work
that way this is something that's been a long
time coming you know some people contemplate
on and off about it and definitely when alcohol
is involved especially a large amount and maybe
some other drugs 12 about within the last 12
hours of you know the death yeah we absolutely
see that it really really has impact one of the
startling common denominators that came out of
all these conversations of people that were in
crisis at one point was over and over and over
again. Initially, a few of them said it, and
then I kind of honed in and then would ask it
after that to make sure that I pulled that from
this person. When we think about how we were
discussing suicide years ago, it was selfish,
it was cowardly. How could you think of your
family? And then you listen to these people who
are actually there. And again, that brain becoming
miswired through all these different contributing
factors. Their actual belief system, their their
baseline has been skewed and you listen to them.
They truly believe that they are the reason for
their family's pain. My kids are scared of them.
You know, my wife hates me, whatever it is. And
so now they've got that little voice saying,
well, if you just took yourself out, then they'd
be happier. And there's such a tragic example
in Florida. I think it was just over a year ago.
We had the two young cops. They were dating and
they had a baby. I think it was a little baby
boy. I think he took his own life and it was
barely a week after she took her own life. And
so, you know, again, to the healthy mind, like
it makes no sense, but it shows you this distorted
belief of these people. And then you think about,
we refer to alcohol as Dutch courage. You've
got this voice saying, look, just do it because
then they'll be happy. That makes at that moment
in that, let me be clear, distorted state. It
makes the suicide courageous and selfless. And
now you add that last thing, that Dutch courage,
that alcohol. And then you've got the completion
of suicide. So that's what I've heard again,
observationally through hundreds of interviews.
What about that factor as you've kind of unwrapped
some of the suicides that you were looking into?
Absolutely. So a lot of individuals really, and
I've talked to a lot of individuals who have
also attempted suicide and were unsuccessful.
And so going back to talk to a lot of those individuals
and learning from that, you actually have the
ability to. kind of confirm a lot of this work
right like we're on the right path and yes this
was the mindset and this is what we were finding
so kind of really in that sense of the matter
it's very um you know i'm very glad that some
people have been unsuccessful absolutely because
um you know it's so unfortunate it takes all
of that in a lot of those cases for people to
realize um that they can come back and they can
come out of this um and i've met so many amazing
people that are living their best life post an
attempt that was unsuccessful i'm happy that
they're here but i'm just so sad that they had
to go through all of that and then i'm sad for
all of those families and those that were successful
and it's you know what i mean um weren't able
to see that you can no matter how bad it is or
how bad it seems you can come out of this one
of the things that i've learned is yeah there
is this really distorted way of thinking and
this perspective that these people adopt of thinking
that you know what my family will be better off
without me. Things will be so much better. I'm
the most horrible thing for them. It's me that
needs to be removed or erased because I'm the
problem. That is so unfortunate. And so as I
go on and do these trainings, I'm very well aware
of the fact that I have people around me that
might be holding on by a thread. they're really
struggling and i really emphasize and tell them
you know from real live experience situations
um cases of people who have attempted to take
their life and will are still around luckily
to be able to confirm and tell us like you couldn't
it couldn't be further from the truth that way
of thinking and then all those families that
have lost their loved ones and i tell people
i don't care if you have The worst possible relationship
with your family, seriously, with your kids,
with your significant other, like it could be
the worst of the worst. I'm telling you right
now because I've sat in front of those families
where it really was the worst of the worst. And
the suicide has done nothing more than devastate.
It's the most horrific thing that they can experience,
even if they had a bad relationship. It is it
is just the most devastating. most horrible thing
that can happen no they don't want you to die
they really don't maybe you know this marriage
isn't working anymore and it's really toxic and
it has to end and that's fine but it doesn't
mean that the live has to go lives have to go
it's not to that point and i'm telling you i've
met some people who they really were going through
nasty nasty divorces the kids didn't care for
the parent etc and devastated horrible they're
they can't come back from that and i I've talked
to these families years after that suicide of
their loved one, and they still are not okay.
So it's something that we really need to have
people understand. I get that things are really
rough. You may not really see it right now. You're
not making the connection, but we really need
to emphasize and let them know this is not going
to fix. It's going to make it way, way worse.
I just feel like this needs to be front and center
on the posters in the conversation. If your mind
is telling you, you're having this conversation
that you are a burden to the people that love
you, that is a massive red flag. That is your
sign to be like, all right, I need to pick up
the phone. I need to go see someone. I need to
schedule an appointment. I just need to go to
a friend's house and physically put myself in
front of them because that is the precursor.
Really believe that your actual reality is being
distorted now. And so the things that your mind
is telling you are not coming from a healthy
place anymore. No. And one of the things that
I have found that's really interesting about
suicide is that most people actually don't want
to die. That's one of the saddest parts of it
all. Right. And all these cases where I'm watching
this unfold and I'm putting together this like
storyline, if you will, like the whole just how
it unraveled and everything I'm hearing. The
pain that people are experiencing is so tremendous
that they don't always want to die. A lot of
them actually don't want to die. They just want
to stop the pain. And if you can imagine the
absolute, I ask people, imagine the absolute
worst point of pain that you ever experienced.
Whatever that may be. Think about that. Like
physical pain. I'm talking physical. Physical
pain. Whatever that physical pain that was the
worst of the worst where you felt like this could
possibly, I feel like I'm going to die, like
for real, for real. I can no longer handle this.
That's, you know, and that goes on and on and
on for days and months and years or whatever
it may be. Like, yeah, I mean, I don't agree
with it, right? I don't agree with this matter
of handling the situation by taking your life,
but you can start to somewhat understand and
you're like, oh, this is so unfortunate that
you were really in this level of pain. But you
want them to understand that there really are
ways that we can get through this. And I'm not
going to lie, you'll have to put in the work
and it might not always be easy, but you really
can. So that's the hardest part and that's what's
unfortunate. But I think as we continue to...
put this information out and let people really
start to be able to understand and make that
connection i think that you can definitely have
some more positive results 100 into like physical,
you know, altercations with people, our head
bounces off concrete all the time. I mean, it
does. And because we don't see a visual injury,
we oftentimes are like, I'm fine, you know, everything's
good, whatever. And it isn't until later that
we start to see the behaviors, right? We're seeing
behaviors that are connected to a concussion
or traumatic brain injury, but people don't know
what that looks like. They don't know what that
is. And That is something that really contributes
to, again, getting into that impaired judgment,
that mindset that where, you know, you have a
lot of very clouded thinking, your perspective
is altered. So that's another major contributor
that I've been seeing that people don't even
be, it just, they don't even begin to scratch
the surface on talking about that. I know in
the SEAL community, the CTE conversation behind
a lot of the suicides, I've had some of the widows
on the show. When I think about the fire service,
obviously we've got less exposure to concussive
impacts and that kind of thing. But, you know,
there's a lot of us that played football. I was
a martial artist my whole life. So I got kicked
and punched in the head. And, you know, so those
are all behind it as well. And then ironically,
if you look at going back to sleep deprivation,
the demyelination of the myelin sheath that you
get from a TBI. The same exact thing happens
from sleep deprivation. So from us, it might
be a little less kind of traumatic, like physical,
but it's more physiological. We're still getting
the same degradation. Absolutely. Going to the
psych meds quickly before we transition. I had
a Swedish psychiatrist on the show and he was
kind of just amazed the way that they're prescribed
over here because. What you hear from a lot of
people in that industry that actually are telling
the actual data -driven facts is that the efficacy
of a lot of these psych meds aren't actually
anywhere near as good as people would think.
And that when they are used appropriately, it's
supposed to be for a short amount of time as
you then are diving into the psychology behind
it and then wean them off. But if you look at
the States getting away from psychology, let's
say we go into... the doctor's office and got
high blood pressure, they just give you blood
pressure meds. They're not saying, all right,
well, it's a little higher now. We'll take these
beta blockers for a few weeks, but we've got
to start working on your weight. We've got to
get you eating better. We've got to get you moving
because we want to get you off these pills. And
I feel it's the same exact conversation in the
mental health space when it comes to psych meds
in this country is, oh, I'm on antidepressants.
Like forever? That's what they told you. Like
for the next 40 years, you're going to be popping
these pills. So I think that that's an issue.
I'm not saying that all psychiatrists are evil
people because they're not. But I think there's
a very unprofessional or I don't know, just just
an undereducated element to the prescription
of psych meds. If it's going to bridge a gap
and get someone to be able to temper their emotions
and get back in the gym and, you know, get to
some counseling sessions, then, yeah, it'd be
a great adjunct. But I feel like a lot of times
they're prescribed ongoing, which is never how
these were ever, ever supposed to be prescribed
in the first place. Yeah. One of the biggest
things that I find is, first of all, when it
comes to psychotropic medications, reality is
that some individuals really do need to be on
them. In some cases, people don't necessarily
need to be on them or not on them that long.
Right. Sometimes they. They need to be used temporarily.
And when I say that there's an issue with mismanagement,
meaning that the individuals are not taking them,
they're not taking them as they should, right?
So if you have to take it once every day. At
a certain time or whatever, you really should
stick to that. If you're going to come off of
them, you really should speak to the doctor to
have the doctor wean you off properly so that
you don't run the risk of being in some kind
of like psychological emergency. I often tell
officers, fire, paramedics, the story of how,
you know, when we get that call where there's
that individual and we always get it, we've all
had it. where the individual's family is calling
911 and they're saying hey you know john is bipolar
john takes medication but john hasn't taken his
medication in two weeks and now john's tearing
up the house and john's losing it we need you
to come and help us right you show up and sure
enough john's tore the house up it looks like
a tornado went through everything's broken. It's
just ripped to pieces. And now John's ready to
like fight you. You know, it's just trying to
get him in the ambulance to try to get him over
for a psych eval. Like this is a very like prime
example of an individual who's on a psychotropic
medication for a mood stabilizer. Okay. And for
whatever reason, he didn't like the effects of
the medication. He didn't like how it was making
him feel. Cause that's usually the case, right?
Why they stop. abruptly just taking them and
they go so they go off cold turkey and now the
symptoms of their disorder are that much more
intensified they're having maybe a psychotic
episode whatever it may be and so this is the
outcome of how um these drugs need to be taken
at a certain time certain way. If you're going
to be coming off of them, there's a way to do
it. You can't just stop because then it causes
all kinds of issues. So imagine if that's happening
to just a regular individual, a civilian of society,
absolutely this can happen to first responders.
Yeah, they're not invincible. This will happen
to them too. And this is what happens, right?
And then sometimes they're not under the right
care. right um primary physicians love them they're
fantastic but if i'm going to be on something
for a longer period of time then maybe i should
be referred off to a psychiatrist because they
are the ones that handle and um prescribe psychotropic
medications right like if i go to my primary
initially because i have a problem with something
and i'm not really sure like what to do or what
the issue is absolutely my primary physician
will help me get to the bottom of the issue maybe
he'll treat me for a bit but once it becomes
a little more beyond his scope of knowledge or,
you know, you just really want someone who specializes
specifically in this is what we should be doing,
right? For the most part, if I have, you know,
a break of a bone, I may go to my primary initially,
but he'll either say, okay, yeah, it looks like
you might have a break, but I'm not really sure.
You're going to have to go to the ER and have
it x -rayed, you know, or go see an orthopedic
doctor. Because they specialize with bones and
all of that and breaks and so on. Same thing
with a cardiologist. So why aren't we doing this
with our mental health professionals? It's important
that they specialize in these psychotropic medications.
There's so many different options out there for
different meds for depression alone. Why wouldn't
I want to maybe... work with the individual that
has seen so many patients and knows like, given
my situation, given my history and all that,
like they would rather maybe, you know, try this
versus this. And I think the other thing that's
so important is that we need to learn to self
-advocate for ourselves. So you need to do the
research and you really need to know what questions
to ask, what, you know, what concerns you may
have and really be a part of the treatment plan
as opposed to just sitting there like a sitting
duck and just. I don't know, just have someone
tell you what to do and how to do it. We are
constantly investigating all day, every day in
our jobs, even when we get home in some cases
as first responders, right? Because that's part
of our duty. So when it comes to your self -care,
you should really be learning to self -advocate
for yourself, which is one of the other things
that I really focus on with giving another tool
to our first responders for that self -care.
There's a funny video that's floating around
and it's... husband and wife and she says she's
got a headache and he's pointing out this because
there's a giant metal nail sticking out of her
head and she's like you don't understand and
it's that's how i feel with this whole mental
health conversation is you keep giving them tylenol
but you're not pulling the nail out of the head
right so when we're taking antidote i'm not talking
about schizophrenic and bipolar obviously there's
some That's where over and over again, I hear,
yes, medication is appropriate at that point,
unless you can obviously unravel that using other
modalities as well. But when it comes to depression,
anxiety, some of the ones that we see most common,
you're on this pill, great, but that's mitigating
symptoms. Are you addressing the root cause?
And if not, why not? And I think it's the same,
again, going back to diabetes, hypertension.
If you're just taking pills, if you're just taking
insulin. and not addressing the fact that your
body's doing this in the first place, then again,
it goes back to that self -advocacy. Why not
get to that point? Because the goal is to get
off the pills. You should not be on pills if
you can avoid it. Yeah, we definitely have to
do better at learning to self -advocate for ourselves.
And really, I'm... Maybe I'm just a little bit
of a weirdo, but I really like to get to the
bottom of a problem. I really do. Cause I always,
I don't know. My mindset has always been like,
maybe I overanalyze, but I want to get to the
source of the issue. Like, okay, well, what's
going on here? Why, why is this happening? And.
learn from like once you're able I mean sometimes
we may not have an answer but at least I'm trying
to get to the source of the problem instead of
just kind of like yeah you know kind of shelving
it like yeah well whatever we're just going to
go through the motions like no let's get to the
bottom of the to the source of the problem to
the root of it and try to see like okay now that
we understand what that is how do we proceed
are there better ways and of you know proceeding
with making this better yeah i agree 100 and
i'm the same if you reverse engineer enough you'll
find some pretty basic things that need to be
changed well we talked about you know symptoms
and signs and all these things let's go to solutions
so talk to me about canine therapy and then uh
resilient heroes okay so you know there have
been a lot of studies out there that show um
how animals and i know that you mentioned growing
up um all the animals that you were around and
so There's this hormone that as human beings
we crave, that oxytocin, that feel -good hormone.
We get that from hugging people, having social
touch, interaction. We've found in studies that
the animals, interacting with the animals, we
get that. We get that fix. And so a lot of individuals
are seeing more and more therapy dogs out and
about. And I know some people are kind of like,
oh, you know, first and foremost, the difference
between a service animal and a therapy, the service
animal does a job for you, the one individual.
Those are the animals that will have the vest
that says, you know, do not pet, I'm working.
So they're there to provide a service to that
individual. The therapy dogs, on the other hand,
they're there for everyone, right? So I have
Arlo, our certified trauma therapy dog. um and
he's actually he's a little unique um he is a
200 pound bull mastiff and i know people are
just like what the heck this is a horse um he's
a big boy he is great um and the animals have
this impact on people especially the dogs and
the reason why arlo specifically his breed i
felt was very appropriate was because he does
share this commonality with first responders
military where on the exterior you know they
may be just big massive tough looking right just
rough um but on the in the interior they're really
just gentle giants that are very loving And so
Arlo came about because I had two friends of
mine who had done a couple tours of Iraq in the
military and they're police officers. And when
they came back at the end of their tours, Arlo
at the time was just my regular, you know, pet
at home. Two of these individuals, I was convinced
something bad was going to happen. One of them,
I was for sure convinced he's going to eat his
gun. I could not leave him alone. It was very
difficult to like. not have eyes on him. Didn't
know what to do because, of course, very guarded,
shut down, isolated. So I had them around my
house. And these were two totally different situations.
And so with each situation, the first one, when
this guy came around, he engaged with Arlo. And
it's funny because he's so big and he's such
a massive breed that people are just like, I
can't believe this is your dog. He's so massive.
They kind of like zone in on him and they start
talking with like that mushy language like, oh,
my God, you're so big. And it made them comfortable
enough that they started to open up about things
that I couldn't get them to talk about. And I
wasn't asking. They just in their interaction
with the dog, petting the dog, just kind of like,
you know, zoned in on the dog. They started talking
and they started to unleash some information
that however it made them feel. was good enough,
whatever they felt from that was the beginning
of them realizing that maybe they do need to
get some help. Maybe they need to do something
to feel what they're feeling from the interaction
with the dog. And it was the beginning of them
seeking out their resources and their therapeutic
modalities that were the fit for them and them
healing. And now we can say that they are both
living their best life today. So I knew I had
something special with the dog, especially with
the first guy. But, you know, life gets in the
way. And then by the second guy, I was like,
OK, I just can't ignore this. So that is the
beginning of how Arlo went into training. And
he is now a certified trauma therapy dog. And
he goes with me to most just about all like the
trainings, conferences, all of that through Resilient
Heroes that I can drive to because we cannot
get him on a plane. I was just going to say that
he's not a lap dog. He thinks he is. He thinks
he's a chihuahua at 200 pounds as a six year
old bull mastiff. You talked about the two veteran
that are also police officers. That one you were
worried about is going to eat his gun. You know,
Arlo opens the door and now he goes on his own
healing journey. When it comes to this whole
conversation that we've had today. I think where
we failed as a profession is we've just allowed
the conversation to get stuck at smash the stigma,
which doesn't do anything. I mean, I get create
an environment for vulnerable, courageous vulnerability.
That's ultimately what we need. But that's just
someone open up saying, I need help. It's the
what's next. Where I feel like there's so much
hope and yet it's so under discussed is the post
-traumatic growth. is the fact, as you said,
those two men are living their best life, or
men or women, depending on who they are, are
living their best life. And they then become
beacons of hope for other people. And so I think
as we talked about that unaddressed trauma from
our early life, and then the trauma we accumulate
through our profession, when worked through,
I truly believe that becomes strength, that becomes
the gold glue on Japanese pottery. So talk to
me about that. You've watched these metamorphosis.
Talk about the hope. and the kind of people that
we can become when we figure out what needs to
be addressed and we find our own unique toolbox
to start working through the trauma yeah so with
these particular two individuals and many others
i i and i've said this When people actually deal
with their shit, when they unpack and do the
work to try to get through to get to a better
place, these individuals have way better outcomes
than the individuals who want to be in denial,
who are afraid of the stigma, who are in denial
of what they're going through and trying to just
look the other way or kind of like just brush
it under the rug. There are so many different
modalities out there, therapeutic modalities
that people aren't even aware of. And I think
that's one, again, the knowledge gap. This is
why I'm doing the work that I'm doing because
I'm not kidding. There's just not enough information.
You would think people know all of this and they
really don't. And it's like, wow, just because
of some lack of information, these horrible outcomes
are presenting themselves. We have to do better.
People think. when they think of therapy or they
think of like psychology they only think of talk
therapy right which is our psychotherapy um does
it work for everyone absolutely not one of the
things that people don't understand or don't
realize is that psychology is not one size fits
all right so what works for you may not work
for me and vice versa so when you ask people
hey what what are options out there all i hear
is psychotherapy talk therapy talking with a
doctor, those are the only answers I get. And
I'm like, oh my gosh, there's such a whole world
out there of information and different modalities,
like that you have to actually look to see what
works for you or what may not. It doesn't all
work for everybody. But just talking about like
EMDR, hyperbaric chambers, cold water plunges,
retreats. um so many different options i mean
we can go on all day here about them um it's
one of the things that we need to be talking
about more so people are you know everybody didn't
know what psychotherapy was for a long time what
but the more we talked about it the more you
heard about it the more people mention it more
people become more um educated on the topic and
they know what it is you really can't find anyone
nowadays you say psychotherapy or talk therapy
they know what they know what it is but at one
point they didn't all know what it was so we
need to start doing that doing that with all
the other modalities so that we can start normalizing
those and like putting them out there and it's
like oh yeah i know what that is or i tried it
or i didn't whatever um and that's one of the
things again psychoeducate when you present information
to people and different options they They now
have the ability to make a conscious decision
for themselves, whether it sounds appealing or
not, whether they've tried it. They can do that,
right? They can turn to something. Most people
just don't know what is available to them, what
they can do. And so I think that that's one of
the biggest thing is filling that knowledge gap.
And especially when it comes to something like
the world of psychology and like these different
modalities, because if you don't know about it
because you didn't go to school for it or you're
somehow not involved in that platform, like,
how do you know? Right. I mean, I don't know
everything about everything in life until somebody
if someone brings anything up of any topic, any
subject matter that I've never heard of. Until
I actually have someone explain it to me or I
sit down and I educate myself, I won't know.
And that's fine. But have options. I think this
has been amazing. Even the world of the psychedelics,
you know, you've got MDMA, you've got ketamine,
you've got, you know, Ibogaine, you've got, you
know, ayahuasca. So even that, you know, that's
I've just had two firefighters message me. They
were at a psychedelic retreat through the Siren
Project, which is a nonprofit that puts first
responders through. And they literally had a
complete revelation. And these are men that have
already put in the work. And I think this is
important when you have treatment -resistant
depression or some of the associated struggles.
Maybe that's the key to the lock that opens the
door. And it's not a magic bullet, but maybe
that will be the aha moment for you. And then
you kind of find that pee beneath the mattress,
as we say. So the hope in this massive toolbox
from equine therapy to... you know, ayahuasca
and everything in between. I think that's what
we need to be shouting from the rooftops as well,
is get people to understand that they're struggling,
but give them the hope. Like, okay, you tried
this counselor, it didn't work. Have you tried
a different human being, another counselor? Maybe
you'll have the right connection. Maybe an MDMA
or something else will open the door and then
you go back to the right counselor. And now all
of a sudden you're unpacking this stuff. So,
yeah, I mean, the hope element, I think, is what
we need to put in now. So people are excited
to find out who they can be when they do the
work. Yeah, absolutely. Giving them resources
and giving them options is really what we need
to put at the forefront. 100 percent. All right.
Well, before we wrap up, expand on what you offer
with Resilient Heroes. So Resilient Heroes is
a nonprofit that I started due to all of this
work. As I had conducted all these autopsies
and I found what I felt was missing, what we
were needing, I decided to put curriculum together.
Now, it's important to understand that as first
responders, we go through training and a lot
of it, sometimes we don't care about. We don't
want to be there. We have to just complete some
of this stuff. Some training is great. However,
one thing that I have found throughout my years
as an officer. and a lot of fellow first responders
that sit in that trainee seat is that we sometimes
we oftentimes actually have a lot of people that
come in and provide us these like trainings or
or whatnot and the delivery is just awful right
they it may be great material it may be great
but again not understanding the culture of our
our work and how to deliver the information that
they're trying to deliver in a way that will
understand it, that will resonate with us, is
one of the pieces I found that's missing. And
so for me, it was very important not just to
put together some other, just another training,
another curriculum that, you know, just really
doesn't go anywhere. It was important on how
it's designed, right? So this curriculum was
designed to really make it a very interactive.
group setting way of learning where I'm not going
to like, it's not going to be death by PowerPoint.
We've had enough of that. It's very much talking
about all these important pieces of information
from an educational standpoint and knowledge
that we want to give to the first responders,
but you do it in a way where we do it through
a lot of lived experiences, if you will. So we
understand, right? I have worn the hat for 21
years as a police officer. they also bring the
psychological um experience and so combining
those two and really just presenting it in a
way and all of the information that really fits
especially within our population is important
so i essentially am providing you know everything
along the lines of the trauma the suicide the
resources um all those different treatment modalities
that are options um how to advocate for yourself
all of that information is being presented and
it's really incredible to see how people how
it's impacting individuals right so i really
focus on impact metrics and really trying to
see you know what's working what's not how do
we need to do um what changes do we need to make
what do we need to add um to really have people
take this information not only have it resonate
with them but have them actually start applying
all of this um and have an extra set of tools
in their toolbox for them to have better outcomes
right and this is the way that we start to tell
to show individuals that if you take care of
us if you start to have knowledge on a lot of
this information um and you're able to apply
it in in your own world in your own life on your
job and your personal lives etc this will start
reducing the likelihood of crisis, right? And
when you reduce the likelihood of crisis, right,
you're getting ahead of everything. We're doing
a proactive approach. Then you start reducing
suicidal ideation. And so that's really what
I've been going around the country doing with
different agencies. I was just in Denver last
week. It was an amazing outcome. I've done tons
of stuff here in the state. Next week, I'll be...
about an hour away from Chicago, downstate. And
it's really just presenting to different agencies.
The reason I started the not -for -profit is
that unfortunately, a lot of our agencies across
the country, there's a budget, finances are an
issue. They really focus on getting us the training
that is mandated by the state and that we absolutely
have to get done. And that's really a lot of
like our policy and all of that. But when it
comes to doing trainings like this and stuff
that's for us ourselves for our own self -care
right it's kind of like oh we don't have any
funding for that anymore you know we don't we've
run we've run out we don't have it it's not in
the budget so a resilient heroes not profit is
to really be able to get this um information
the psychoeducation training out to agencies
regardless of budget finance issues like they
don't have to pay for it I started a not for
profit so that through grants, donations, fundraising,
we can get this these tools that we need to get
out to our first responders. And then now we
don't have an excuse. It is a data driven analysis
like curriculum. So really, it's like I tell
leadership and different agencies, if you really
do care about the suicide issue and the trauma
issue of your agencies. with your members um
and so now if money is not an issue and you really
do care then what's the excuse now so yeah resilient
heroes um if anyone is interested in in helping
us um with this mission you can go to the website
www .resilient -heroes .com um all the information
is there you can we i constantly put out a weekly
newsletter let people know what we're doing what's
happening a lot of discussion around all of this
work um i send that out to people so you can
do you can absolutely subscribe and you can make
a donation if you in some way or another want
to help with this mission fantastic Well, Liz,
I want to thank you so much. I mean, it's been
such a unique perspective with you having a full
career in law enforcement and the psychology
side. the kind of, you know, the autopsy element
to all these suicides. I mean, it's a completely
different conversation I've had with anyone else.
So, and then on top of that, obviously what you're
doing for the nonprofit, it's so endearing, so
many people that already serve that then go above
and beyond and serve, you know, yet again. So
I want to thank you so, so much for being so
generous with your time and coming on the Behind
the Shield podcast today. Thank you. Thank you
so much. Thank you for all the work that you
do for putting so much information out on so
many different amazing topics. I appreciate you.
And please be safe.