WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.740 This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr, yet 00:00:02.740 --> 00:00:04.860 another company that's doing great things for 00:00:04.860 --> 00:00:07.679 the first responder community. As a strength 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:09.960 and conditioning coach myself who also trains 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:13.140 tactical athletes, dissemination of wellness 00:00:13.140 --> 00:00:15.320 information is one of the biggest challenges. 00:00:15.980 --> 00:00:18.519 Now TeamBuildr is the premier strength and conditioning 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:21.539 software for tactical athletes and there are 00:00:21.539 --> 00:00:24.839 several features that really impress me. Firstly, 00:00:24.920 --> 00:00:27.780 there is a full exercise library. So you, the 00:00:27.780 --> 00:00:29.940 personal trainer, does not have to create that 00:00:29.940 --> 00:00:33.039 within your own department. Secondly, you can 00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:36.020 send out programming, but also individualize, 00:00:36.060 --> 00:00:38.840 which I love. So you blanket program for everyone. 00:00:39.060 --> 00:00:41.780 Now you can tweak based on someone's injury, 00:00:41.979 --> 00:00:44.479 someone's need to maybe drop some body composition, 00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:47.420 rather than having to write a program for every 00:00:47.420 --> 00:00:50.179 single person on their own. TeamBuildr also 00:00:50.179 --> 00:00:52.679 allows you to build custom questionnaires to 00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:55.719 collate health and wellness data. It integrates 00:00:55.719 --> 00:00:58.280 with wearables. And I think one of the most important 00:00:58.280 --> 00:01:02.079 things is obviously it tracks. To me, it's imperative 00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:05.540 that we as a profession start tracking our people 00:01:05.540 --> 00:01:09.439 from day one and then over the full span of their 00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:12.659 career, therefore catching potential wellness 00:01:12.659 --> 00:01:16.200 issues and injuries before they happen. Now, 00:01:16.219 --> 00:01:18.439 if you want to try Teambuildr, they are offering 00:01:18.439 --> 00:01:20.760 you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast, 00:01:21.180 --> 00:01:25.359 a free 14 -day trial to experience all of the 00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:27.900 features. And if you want to take a deeper dive 00:01:27.900 --> 00:01:32.439 into TeamBuildr, listen to episode 1032 with 00:01:32.439 --> 00:01:36.459 Melissa Mercado or go to teambuildr .com. And 00:01:36.459 --> 00:01:37.980 I'll spell that to you because it's not as you 00:01:37.980 --> 00:01:44.480 think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:46.280 to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:48.319 my name is James Gearing and this week I have 00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:50.859 an incredibly powerful and unique conversation 00:01:50.859 --> 00:01:54.500 with veteran law enforcement officer and the 00:01:54.500 --> 00:01:58.019 woman behind Resilient Heroes, Elizabeth Pohl. 00:01:58.700 --> 00:02:01.140 Now, what makes this conversation so powerful 00:02:01.140 --> 00:02:04.500 is as Liz progressed through her career, she 00:02:04.500 --> 00:02:06.959 started seeing the devastating impact of the 00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:10.740 mental health crisis on her own profession. Deciding 00:02:10.740 --> 00:02:13.360 to be part of the solution, she began suicide 00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:17.039 autopsies, taking a deep dive into all the contributing 00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:21.360 factors to the officer's suicide. So we discuss 00:02:21.360 --> 00:02:24.620 a host of topics from her own journey into law 00:02:24.620 --> 00:02:28.639 enforcement, her own mental health story, forensic 00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:32.360 psychology, the psych evals of the first responder 00:02:32.360 --> 00:02:36.000 professions, canine therapy, and so much more. 00:02:36.539 --> 00:02:38.539 Now, before we get to this incredible conversation, 00:02:38.780 --> 00:02:41.280 as I say every week, please just take a moment, 00:02:41.419 --> 00:02:44.819 go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe 00:02:44.819 --> 00:02:48.319 to the show, leave feedback and leave a rating. 00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:52.159 Every single five -star rating truly does elevate 00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:54.740 this podcast, therefore making it easier for 00:02:54.740 --> 00:02:58.240 others to find. And this is a free library of 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:02.919 well over 1 ,000 episodes now. So all I ask in 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:05.819 return is that you help share these incredible 00:03:05.819 --> 00:03:08.659 men and women's stories so I can get them to 00:03:08.659 --> 00:03:11.500 every single person on planet Earth who needs 00:03:11.500 --> 00:03:15.180 to hear them. So that being said, I introduce 00:03:15.180 --> 00:03:39.599 to you Elizabeth Pohl. Enjoy. Well, Liz, I want 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:42.060 to start by saying thank you so much for taking 00:03:42.060 --> 00:03:43.740 the time and coming on the Behind the Shield 00:03:43.740 --> 00:03:46.759 podcast today. Thank you so much for having me. 00:03:46.819 --> 00:03:49.439 I appreciate it. So where on planet Earth are 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:52.900 we finding you this afternoon? I am in rainy 00:03:52.900 --> 00:03:57.479 slash snowy Chicago, Illinois. I always say this 00:03:57.479 --> 00:03:59.719 to guests that aren't in Florida. I won't show 00:03:59.719 --> 00:04:01.340 you what's outside my window because it would 00:04:01.340 --> 00:04:02.560 make me even more depressed. No, please don't. 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:07.330 It'll hurt my soul. All right. Well, I would 00:04:07.330 --> 00:04:09.490 have to start at the very beginning of your timeline. 00:04:09.669 --> 00:04:11.789 So tell me where you were born and tell me a 00:04:11.789 --> 00:04:13.530 little bit about your family dynamic, what your 00:04:13.530 --> 00:04:18.110 parents did, how many siblings. So I was born 00:04:18.110 --> 00:04:22.149 and raised in Chicago. I was born to a Polish 00:04:22.149 --> 00:04:26.350 American father and a South American Colombian 00:04:26.350 --> 00:04:31.250 born mother. So my background, ethnicity wise, 00:04:31.370 --> 00:04:34.689 is pretty mixed. I speak both Spanish and English, 00:04:34.730 --> 00:04:37.930 and I have one younger sister who's three years 00:04:37.930 --> 00:04:40.170 younger than me. Brilliant. What did your parents 00:04:40.170 --> 00:04:44.810 do as far as occupation? So my mom really, when 00:04:44.810 --> 00:04:46.529 she first got here, she really worked in the 00:04:46.529 --> 00:04:50.670 factories in my younger years. And then she just 00:04:50.670 --> 00:04:55.589 really stayed at home. And my father was kind 00:04:55.589 --> 00:05:02.170 of involved in personnel. But he died when I 00:05:02.170 --> 00:05:05.089 was at a very young age. I'm sorry to hear that. 00:05:05.720 --> 00:05:08.259 What about the immigration stories that you heard 00:05:08.259 --> 00:05:10.220 from your mom and I'm assuming through your mom 00:05:10.220 --> 00:05:13.040 about your father? Because I think in some of 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:15.079 these current rhetorics that we hear, there's 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:17.699 a very kind of anti -immigrant sentiment. And 00:05:17.699 --> 00:05:20.399 I understand fully between legal and illegal. 00:05:20.699 --> 00:05:23.500 I get that. But this nation was founded predominantly 00:05:23.500 --> 00:05:27.180 on immigration. So what were kind of each of 00:05:27.180 --> 00:05:30.860 their stories as far as you know? So my father 00:05:30.860 --> 00:05:33.769 was born here. So there's really no story behind 00:05:33.769 --> 00:05:37.550 that. Maybe his parents, but again, he was gone 00:05:37.550 --> 00:05:40.009 so early on in my life that there's so much of 00:05:40.009 --> 00:05:44.410 that side that there's a gap. And then with my 00:05:44.410 --> 00:05:46.990 mother, most of her family, they all migrated 00:05:46.990 --> 00:05:50.389 over. It was a different time. It wasn't at all 00:05:50.389 --> 00:05:53.379 like it is. uh that we're seeing today people 00:05:53.379 --> 00:05:56.860 were vetted um there was a process years and 00:05:56.860 --> 00:05:58.759 years of waiting i even remember other family 00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:02.500 members where it just took a long time for paperwork 00:06:02.500 --> 00:06:06.519 to be filed um and just waiting for a response 00:06:06.519 --> 00:06:08.779 of that background checks all of that kind of 00:06:08.779 --> 00:06:12.540 stuff so um that's all i really really ultimately 00:06:12.540 --> 00:06:15.540 recall is that there was a whole process and 00:06:15.540 --> 00:06:17.620 it took some time because i remember cousins 00:06:17.620 --> 00:06:20.379 that were you know a little older They weren't 00:06:20.379 --> 00:06:23.139 babies. You know, it took time for them to come 00:06:23.139 --> 00:06:25.040 over. And, you know, this was back in the 70s, 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:29.379 80s, maybe 90s. So that's kind of all I really 00:06:29.379 --> 00:06:32.779 recall. We're seeing the ripple effect of drug 00:06:32.779 --> 00:06:35.220 prohibition. I had this conversation with a lot 00:06:35.220 --> 00:06:38.290 of people now. We kind of have this again, this 00:06:38.290 --> 00:06:40.930 anti -immigrant sentiment sometimes, but then 00:06:40.930 --> 00:06:43.730 we don't acknowledge the fact that some of the 00:06:43.730 --> 00:06:46.949 issues in some of these countries were created 00:06:46.949 --> 00:06:49.550 by us as a consumer in the illicit drug trade. 00:06:49.850 --> 00:06:53.410 So when I think of Colombia in the 80s and 90s, 00:06:53.410 --> 00:06:55.149 I'm thinking obviously about a lot of the cocaine 00:06:55.149 --> 00:06:58.350 and the cartel issues that they had there. Was 00:06:58.350 --> 00:07:00.490 there any conversation about that? Were they 00:07:00.490 --> 00:07:03.709 trying to get away from certain areas in Colombia? 00:07:03.790 --> 00:07:06.269 Or was it just... purely going to the States 00:07:06.269 --> 00:07:11.730 for the American dream? I think it was really 00:07:11.730 --> 00:07:14.829 just for better opportunity. I actually grew 00:07:14.829 --> 00:07:18.050 up going back to Colombia just about every single 00:07:18.050 --> 00:07:22.829 year as I was a young child. My mom took me for 00:07:22.829 --> 00:07:25.199 the first time when I was there. she took me 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:26.600 for the first time there when i was nine months 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:30.339 old and i remember going back in my early childhood 00:07:30.339 --> 00:07:33.439 years up to my teenage years and it's interesting 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:36.439 because in other countries it's not always this 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:40.939 like idea that you get from the media or from 00:07:40.939 --> 00:07:44.800 what you see on tv it's really different so i 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:48.120 would travel every year to colombia and there 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:51.680 wasn't you know like people doing lines of cocaine 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:54.720 on the corner of every block as people imagined 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:58.779 um you know it like any other country and my 00:07:58.779 --> 00:08:00.779 mother's from the capital from bogota it reminded 00:08:00.779 --> 00:08:03.339 me very much of like any major city like chicago 00:08:03.339 --> 00:08:07.300 or anything else where there's like skyscrapers 00:08:07.300 --> 00:08:09.500 and there's um buildings and people going to 00:08:09.500 --> 00:08:12.439 work and just living normal lives um you have 00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:15.019 some poorer areas and some richer areas just 00:08:15.019 --> 00:08:20.360 like any other city so um it yeah it it was for 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:23.439 me it was very normal to go back and forth and 00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:27.100 i was very much um always exposed to different 00:08:27.100 --> 00:08:30.180 cultures and we traveled a lot even to other 00:08:30.180 --> 00:08:33.100 countries so i mean everything just you know 00:08:33.100 --> 00:08:35.980 it varies and everybody has their opinions and 00:08:35.980 --> 00:08:40.220 their ideas and yeah i think when you travel 00:08:40.220 --> 00:08:43.559 you see the world it becomes less of an opinion 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:45.750 and more of an experience then you know exactly 00:08:45.750 --> 00:08:48.389 if you think that you don't like the french people 00:08:48.389 --> 00:08:50.570 because they didn't stay with you in war now 00:08:50.570 --> 00:08:52.490 you change the name of your french fries to freedom 00:08:52.490 --> 00:08:54.850 fries maybe you need to get on a plane and go 00:08:54.850 --> 00:08:57.269 see the world a little bit yeah i've learned 00:08:57.269 --> 00:09:02.450 that mostly on this job that um especially like 00:09:02.450 --> 00:09:04.950 in areas that i worked here in the city you know 00:09:04.950 --> 00:09:10.929 there are some of the uh porous and high uh stats 00:09:10.929 --> 00:09:13.649 with crime and there's some very difficult areas 00:09:13.649 --> 00:09:16.250 and you know i've learned especially through 00:09:16.250 --> 00:09:18.730 this job that you know there's a lot more that 00:09:18.730 --> 00:09:21.250 people don't really see i've met so many different 00:09:21.250 --> 00:09:25.409 people um and not you know all over and i feel 00:09:25.409 --> 00:09:27.889 like if you don't really travel if you don't 00:09:27.889 --> 00:09:30.210 there's a whole other world other than like the 00:09:30.210 --> 00:09:32.870 little city that you grew up in or the town or 00:09:32.870 --> 00:09:35.490 whatever there's it's just there's so much to 00:09:35.490 --> 00:09:38.350 see out there and there's so much behind these 00:09:39.329 --> 00:09:42.690 TVs and like phones with social media. That's 00:09:42.690 --> 00:09:45.110 only like you only see so much. And I feel like 00:09:45.110 --> 00:09:47.049 when you really get out and you start to explore 00:09:47.049 --> 00:09:50.669 the real world and you become so much more well 00:09:50.669 --> 00:09:52.950 -rounded and there's so much to be learned, like 00:09:52.950 --> 00:09:56.649 you just can't learn enough. I ask the military 00:09:56.649 --> 00:09:58.529 members I have on the show that have been deployed 00:09:58.529 --> 00:10:01.539 about, you know. The horrors that they say, and 00:10:01.539 --> 00:10:03.639 I mean that as far as the atrocities that justify 00:10:03.639 --> 00:10:07.139 us sending people over there, but then conversely, 00:10:07.139 --> 00:10:09.720 the kindness and compassion. And it's that shared 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:12.240 humanity that you hear in Iraq and Afghanistan 00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:14.860 and all these other places. And I just shared 00:10:14.860 --> 00:10:17.519 a video yesterday, and it was a car that had 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:20.299 veered off the road and was in a river. And all 00:10:20.299 --> 00:10:22.639 these, you know, good Samaritans, these Iraqis 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:24.860 were all there diving in and pulling kids out 00:10:24.860 --> 00:10:26.980 of this car. And that could have been anywhere. 00:10:27.100 --> 00:10:28.360 It could have been London. It could have been, 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:30.139 you know, Orlando. It could have been anywhere 00:10:30.139 --> 00:10:32.659 on the planet. I think this is what we've got 00:10:32.659 --> 00:10:35.480 to, I think, really kind of take a step back 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:38.980 and get away from this politicking and refine 00:10:38.980 --> 00:10:42.639 the fact that no matter where you go on the planet. 00:10:43.309 --> 00:10:46.269 most people are good people that just want to 00:10:46.269 --> 00:10:48.129 put a roof over their head you know food in their 00:10:48.129 --> 00:10:50.830 kids stomachs and watch them grow and become 00:10:50.830 --> 00:10:52.990 productive adults themselves and the moment that 00:10:52.990 --> 00:10:56.049 you're told oh this group no no no they're they're 00:10:56.049 --> 00:10:58.389 all bad that you kind of need to question the 00:10:58.389 --> 00:11:00.049 person that tells you that in the first place 00:11:00.049 --> 00:11:04.190 yeah i think there's a lot of opinions out there 00:11:04.190 --> 00:11:07.669 about just about everything i don't really get 00:11:07.669 --> 00:11:11.860 involved in politics it's just not my I don't 00:11:11.860 --> 00:11:13.919 know enough about it. I'm not one to ever speak 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:17.259 on something that's like beyond my scope. But 00:11:17.259 --> 00:11:19.860 yeah, I can tell you that as being a police officer, 00:11:20.039 --> 00:11:22.379 having done this job in one of the biggest cities 00:11:22.379 --> 00:11:25.759 in this country, there's a lot of everything. 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:28.940 There really is. There's a lot of there's a lot 00:11:28.940 --> 00:11:30.440 of bad. There's a lot of good. There's a lot 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:33.620 of scary. There's a lot of great and funny. I 00:11:33.620 --> 00:11:35.559 mean, everything. There's just everything out 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:41.000 there. And I think it's case by case. Yeah, that's 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:43.980 really, but I do know that. Unfortunately, I 00:11:43.980 --> 00:11:48.919 have seen a very much big amount of the ugly 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:52.159 side of humanity. And that's difficult when you 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:54.179 do this job because, you know, we're not getting 00:11:54.179 --> 00:11:55.919 called for some of the most wonderful things 00:11:55.919 --> 00:11:59.100 that are going on in society. So, yeah, there 00:11:59.100 --> 00:12:01.639 is a lot of bad and ugly out there, unfortunately. 00:12:01.860 --> 00:12:05.720 And I don't think I would have known that unless 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:08.789 I would have really done this job. Because you 00:12:08.789 --> 00:12:12.070 really see a lot more than you think you're going 00:12:12.070 --> 00:12:15.549 to see and experience. Yeah. And I think we get 00:12:15.549 --> 00:12:17.549 a very skewed perspective because we're going 00:12:17.549 --> 00:12:19.750 to everyone's worst day. And you guys, obviously, 00:12:19.830 --> 00:12:21.809 there's criminality involved usually when you're 00:12:21.809 --> 00:12:25.129 called as well. So we get immersed in that small 00:12:25.129 --> 00:12:29.490 section that is constantly desperate and distrusting 00:12:29.490 --> 00:12:32.940 of your profession. demanding of my profession 00:12:32.940 --> 00:12:36.200 so it can skew you as a first responder if that's 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:39.419 all you see day in day out as far as your perspective 00:12:39.419 --> 00:12:46.120 on humanity as a whole yeah it it i i still have 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:49.240 tried to ground myself throughout the years and 00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:51.940 i know a lot of first responders that still try 00:12:51.940 --> 00:12:54.500 to ground themselves too and not get sucked into 00:12:54.500 --> 00:12:57.940 this idea that everyone in the world is bad um 00:12:57.940 --> 00:13:02.470 again it's how you yourself like balance it out 00:13:02.470 --> 00:13:08.110 right and balance your life so um yeah i i haven't 00:13:08.110 --> 00:13:10.450 i can't say i've really been sucked into this 00:13:10.450 --> 00:13:14.009 like you know one extreme or another way of thinking 00:13:14.009 --> 00:13:17.029 it i think the healthiest way and the the right 00:13:17.029 --> 00:13:19.529 way would be just kind of find a middle ground 00:13:19.529 --> 00:13:22.570 if you will absolutely all right well then back 00:13:22.570 --> 00:13:24.769 to your kind of early life when you were in the 00:13:24.769 --> 00:13:26.909 school ages what were you playing as far as sports 00:13:26.909 --> 00:13:31.379 and exercise Oh, I was a swimmer. And very early 00:13:31.379 --> 00:13:34.720 on, my mom had us going in the direction of like, 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:37.100 you know, continuing our swimming with competitions. 00:13:38.360 --> 00:13:42.279 And I was a lifeguard at the age of 16, because 00:13:42.279 --> 00:13:46.000 that was the actual legal age of lifeguarding 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:48.299 here in Chicago, we have a big lakefront. So 00:13:48.299 --> 00:13:51.419 I was like, I was lifeguard on the lakefront 00:13:51.419 --> 00:13:55.100 and then moved on to the pools. I was a lifeguard 00:13:55.100 --> 00:13:58.830 as well. I was a lifeguard as well for a long 00:13:58.830 --> 00:14:01.529 time. And it's funny because in that profession, 00:14:01.769 --> 00:14:04.490 we were held to a standard every two years. You 00:14:04.490 --> 00:14:06.789 had to recertify, you had to do all your physical 00:14:06.789 --> 00:14:09.409 tests and your toes and your CPR and everything. 00:14:09.769 --> 00:14:11.870 And then I get into the fire service and it's 00:14:11.870 --> 00:14:13.710 the same in law enforcement. Oh no, we don't 00:14:13.710 --> 00:14:16.570 have mandatory fitness tests. And it's so weird 00:14:16.570 --> 00:14:18.389 coming from the lifeguarding community because 00:14:18.389 --> 00:14:20.730 why would you not have a mandatory fitness test 00:14:20.730 --> 00:14:23.129 in a profession where people are trying to kill 00:14:23.129 --> 00:14:25.759 you? And it's the same with lifeguarding. Imagine 00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:27.440 an ocean lifeguard that said, well, I don't want 00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:31.340 to learn how to swim anymore. The adrenaline 00:14:31.340 --> 00:14:33.600 will kick in. I'll be able to get that kid. And 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:35.440 no, you won't. So it's so bizarre. And if you 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:37.840 had the same perspective that when you come from 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:39.620 lifeguarding and go into our profession, you 00:14:39.620 --> 00:14:41.720 expect to be held to that high standard throughout 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:45.110 your career. Absolutely. And that I feel was 00:14:45.110 --> 00:14:47.509 very helpful at such a young age. It kind of 00:14:47.509 --> 00:14:50.750 molded me with like discipline and having structure 00:14:50.750 --> 00:14:54.350 and definitely for training. Like I've been training 00:14:54.350 --> 00:14:58.230 since I can remember, you know, we were trained 00:14:58.230 --> 00:15:01.190 annually. So it was, yeah, it was very serious 00:15:01.190 --> 00:15:03.110 business and having that responsibility of, you 00:15:03.110 --> 00:15:05.690 know, we were there to help others and, you know, 00:15:05.690 --> 00:15:08.470 just always being prepared to respond to any 00:15:08.470 --> 00:15:11.440 kind of emergency. Yeah. So what about career 00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:14.039 aspirations? Were you already thinking of law 00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:15.620 enforcement? Was there something else when you 00:15:15.620 --> 00:15:19.679 were in the high school age? Oh, no. Clearly 00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:22.879 in high school, I just was having fun. I wasn't 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:25.580 thinking of anything. But when I went to college, 00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:30.039 I actually wanted to be a doctor. a pediatric 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:33.899 doctor, believe it or not. And I went into college 00:15:33.899 --> 00:15:36.600 as pre -med and then I realized how much work 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:39.620 it was actually going to take and how much studying. 00:15:39.740 --> 00:15:42.179 And I was like, I'm going to be undecided for 00:15:42.179 --> 00:15:45.779 a couple of years. So I did that. And then I 00:15:45.779 --> 00:15:48.259 went down the psychology. route and that was 00:15:48.259 --> 00:15:50.840 really what i was fixed on and i really seemed 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:53.740 to love and i knew i would have to go on to graduate 00:15:53.740 --> 00:15:56.279 studies because with a bachelor's in psychology 00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:59.080 there you know it's one of those where you really 00:15:59.080 --> 00:16:02.539 need to move on further to further your education 00:16:02.539 --> 00:16:05.019 and get a master's or something higher for to 00:16:05.019 --> 00:16:09.080 be able to really do work in the field so i eventually 00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:12.080 went back to get my master's once i had started 00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:14.179 the police department and i was young in my 20s 00:16:14.179 --> 00:16:16.299 so i was bad like you know balancing the two 00:16:17.129 --> 00:16:18.950 what made you go into the police department when 00:16:18.950 --> 00:16:23.070 you're on the psychology road oh i you know so 00:16:23.070 --> 00:16:25.850 when you're in your 20s you know how we all think 00:16:25.850 --> 00:16:27.809 we have it all figured out and we think we know 00:16:27.809 --> 00:16:29.850 everything about life yet we haven't spent a 00:16:29.850 --> 00:16:33.289 day in our lives in the real world that was me 00:16:33.289 --> 00:16:37.070 i thought okay i definitely wanted to go to the 00:16:37.070 --> 00:16:41.110 fbi so i thought at the time and so my thinking 00:16:41.110 --> 00:16:43.049 because i didn't really have anyone in my family 00:16:43.049 --> 00:16:45.879 who's ever been in law enforcement I thought 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:49.159 that maybe it would be better if I went and did 00:16:49.159 --> 00:16:54.019 a municipal, had a municipal experience by working 00:16:54.019 --> 00:16:56.320 at a local police department and that that would 00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:59.299 show that I have experience. And so when I would 00:16:59.299 --> 00:17:01.980 apply to the FBI, that they would then take me, 00:17:02.059 --> 00:17:05.299 you know, not realizing, no, actually, they like 00:17:05.299 --> 00:17:08.420 to take you right out of college, too. So that 00:17:08.420 --> 00:17:10.299 was what I thought. I didn't know any better. 00:17:10.460 --> 00:17:13.140 So I was my plan was let me go to the police 00:17:13.140 --> 00:17:15.710 department. get the experience i'll go back to 00:17:15.710 --> 00:17:17.849 grad school and then i'll apply to the fbi and 00:17:17.849 --> 00:17:20.250 then you realize yeah no life doesn't really 00:17:20.250 --> 00:17:23.509 always work the way you think and you know before 00:17:23.509 --> 00:17:25.910 i knew it i was already in the police department 00:17:25.910 --> 00:17:28.450 for so long and it was kind of hard to walk away 00:17:28.450 --> 00:17:31.430 and start all over go through a whole new academy 00:17:31.430 --> 00:17:33.529 again and you know all that you know that goes 00:17:33.529 --> 00:17:36.910 into it so i stayed with the police department 00:17:37.950 --> 00:17:41.170 What lit that fire for the FBI? Was it Agent 00:17:41.170 --> 00:17:45.769 Starling or was there another inspiration? You 00:17:45.769 --> 00:17:49.309 know, I don't know. I just think I I don't know. 00:17:49.410 --> 00:17:52.250 I can't remember really what it was exactly, 00:17:52.450 --> 00:17:55.190 but I just thought, I don't know, maybe the FBI 00:17:55.190 --> 00:17:58.309 is just the way to go again in their 20s. You 00:17:58.309 --> 00:18:01.930 don't know anything you think, you know. So I 00:18:01.930 --> 00:18:03.990 was just, you know, kind of trying to figure 00:18:03.990 --> 00:18:05.950 it out as I went along. And this is kind of where 00:18:05.950 --> 00:18:09.660 I landed. Well, you touched on before about seeing 00:18:09.660 --> 00:18:11.859 some of the dark side of our communities that 00:18:11.859 --> 00:18:15.519 we're all exposed to in our profession. You've 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:17.839 gone through the lifeguarding route. You're kind 00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:20.480 of on this career path. What was your on -ramp 00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:22.859 experience like when you actually kind of saw 00:18:22.859 --> 00:18:28.759 behind the proverbial curtain in Chicago? before 00:18:28.759 --> 00:18:31.700 I got on the job, meaning as I was younger? Well, 00:18:31.779 --> 00:18:33.900 no, really when you got on the job. For me, I 00:18:33.900 --> 00:18:36.460 grew up on a farm in England, had a pretty amazing 00:18:36.460 --> 00:18:38.519 adventure in my life up to that point. But when 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:40.799 I put the uniform on, that's when I was like, 00:18:40.900 --> 00:18:44.480 oh, there's another complete side to society 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:47.259 that I've never seen before. What was yours? 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:49.160 I mean, in the city of Chicago, I would assume 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:52.279 it might be quite striking the difference between 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:55.930 the two. So I was born and raised in the city, 00:18:56.009 --> 00:19:01.950 so that city life wasn't new to me. And I thought 00:19:01.950 --> 00:19:06.789 I was pretty well, I grew up in a pretty diverse 00:19:06.789 --> 00:19:10.390 area, obviously very diverse ethnicities, all 00:19:10.390 --> 00:19:12.950 of that. I thought I was pretty well -rounded 00:19:12.950 --> 00:19:17.390 culturally. And then when I got on the job, and 00:19:17.390 --> 00:19:19.849 by the way, when I grew up, I grew up in a pretty... 00:19:20.299 --> 00:19:24.220 you know decent neighborhood hard -working middle 00:19:24.220 --> 00:19:27.900 class um everybody you know we still went out 00:19:27.900 --> 00:19:30.500 in front and played with our friends and played 00:19:30.500 --> 00:19:32.799 tag and all those things that you know you you 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:35.079 would do you play till the lights the street 00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:39.099 lights came on um so yeah but when i got on the 00:19:39.099 --> 00:19:42.680 job i definitely went to some tougher areas where 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:46.259 i really wasn't exposed to that like some of 00:19:46.259 --> 00:19:51.740 those things those crimes those um violent situations. 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:54.980 And that for me was kind of like a culture shock. 00:19:55.099 --> 00:19:57.720 And I was like, wow, oh, wow. I had never really 00:19:57.720 --> 00:19:59.839 been exposed to shootings. I had never really 00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:06.460 been exposed to high drug populated areas. So 00:20:06.460 --> 00:20:09.019 for me, I thought, oh, wow, I thought I had kind 00:20:09.019 --> 00:20:13.299 of been exposed. Clearly not enough. And what 00:20:13.299 --> 00:20:15.519 about the mental health conversation when you 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:17.660 went in? That was kind of like mid -2000s, wasn't 00:20:17.660 --> 00:20:19.880 it? So what was the conversation, if anything, 00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:24.200 for a young police cadet at that time? Oh, what 00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:27.839 mental health conversation? Like, no, not at 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:33.579 all. I got on in 2004. There wasn't a conversation. 00:20:33.759 --> 00:20:37.079 I do remember at one point there was something 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:40.839 where they were trying to kind of introduce us 00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:45.130 to. a couple of mental health diagnoses regarding 00:20:45.130 --> 00:20:49.069 the public like you may run into individuals 00:20:49.069 --> 00:20:53.769 who you may have to deal with that are not cooperative 00:20:53.769 --> 00:20:57.150 who are drunk right but then you may run across 00:20:57.150 --> 00:21:00.849 somebody who maybe has like bipolar disorder 00:21:00.849 --> 00:21:04.910 or maybe schizophrenia and so this is what you 00:21:04.910 --> 00:21:06.769 might want to consider this is what that might 00:21:06.769 --> 00:21:09.690 kind of look like behavior wise and that was 00:21:09.690 --> 00:21:14.059 it that was the end And what about at that time 00:21:14.059 --> 00:21:16.380 on the streets? You know, obviously now as we 00:21:16.380 --> 00:21:19.440 sit here, fentanyl and there's a couple other, 00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:21.759 Trank, some of the ones that are really ravaging 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:23.720 our communities at the moment. What were you 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:28.460 seeing in the communities back then? Back then, 00:21:28.700 --> 00:21:31.579 you know, obviously marijuana was something that 00:21:31.579 --> 00:21:34.240 was not legal. So that was something very common, 00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:35.859 especially when you did a lot of traffic, if 00:21:35.859 --> 00:21:38.319 you did traffic stops or you came across that. 00:21:39.869 --> 00:21:43.269 In the areas that I dealt with, it was very much 00:21:43.269 --> 00:21:50.170 heroin, the crack epidemic at the time. That's 00:21:50.170 --> 00:21:53.529 really what I was seeing more than anything when 00:21:53.529 --> 00:21:57.789 I started. So as you progress through, when did 00:21:57.789 --> 00:22:00.990 you start seeing your psychology journey and 00:22:00.990 --> 00:22:03.089 your law enforcement journey start to overlap 00:22:03.089 --> 00:22:05.589 and realize that even the people that you were 00:22:05.589 --> 00:22:08.549 working alongside, maybe even yourself? needed 00:22:08.549 --> 00:22:12.890 the same conversation so very early on in my 00:22:12.890 --> 00:22:16.329 career it was actually the suicide rates and 00:22:16.329 --> 00:22:18.809 the um how often the suicides were occurring 00:22:18.809 --> 00:22:21.690 where i started to realize oh my gosh we really 00:22:21.690 --> 00:22:26.210 have a problem here um psychologically i started 00:22:26.210 --> 00:22:28.710 to really pay attention to a lot of the chatter 00:22:28.710 --> 00:22:31.829 in response to all the suicides that would occur 00:22:31.829 --> 00:22:34.730 and that's what really kind of triggered all 00:22:34.730 --> 00:22:38.130 of this and It was really seeing and hearing 00:22:38.130 --> 00:22:41.410 how the chatter and roll call in the station 00:22:41.410 --> 00:22:46.670 and all around amongst us officers. I started 00:22:46.670 --> 00:22:49.769 to realize, wow, there's really a lot of questions 00:22:49.769 --> 00:22:53.369 and there's this huge gap of knowledge around 00:22:53.369 --> 00:22:56.829 suicide that exists and no one was addressing 00:22:56.829 --> 00:22:59.950 it. And we were just kind of all trying to get 00:22:59.950 --> 00:23:02.150 answers to certain questions because we weren't 00:23:02.150 --> 00:23:05.960 understanding how this would happen. What caused 00:23:05.960 --> 00:23:10.220 it? Why continue to be such an issue for some 00:23:10.220 --> 00:23:12.460 individuals, right? Some people were taking their 00:23:12.460 --> 00:23:15.539 lives and others weren't. So that's really for 00:23:15.539 --> 00:23:18.160 me from a psychological standpoint where I started 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:21.259 to really start having my own questions. And 00:23:21.259 --> 00:23:24.940 I really wanted to get further involved in trying 00:23:24.940 --> 00:23:27.680 to get to the root of the problem. When you say 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:29.819 the suicide rate, are you talking about in the 00:23:29.819 --> 00:23:31.880 community that you were serving or actually within 00:23:31.880 --> 00:23:34.619 your own community? Actually, no, within our 00:23:34.619 --> 00:23:36.819 own community of first responders, specifically 00:23:36.819 --> 00:23:40.480 for police officers at the time. But I also knew 00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:44.859 firemen and paramedics and dispatchers and military 00:23:44.859 --> 00:23:47.759 that were taking their life. But for sure, at 00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:51.660 the time, specifically, it was in my own agency 00:23:51.660 --> 00:23:56.420 amongst my own fellow officers. When I look back 00:23:56.420 --> 00:24:00.089 at the timeline. And as far as my awareness of 00:24:00.089 --> 00:24:02.150 it and what I saw in the people that I surround 00:24:02.150 --> 00:24:05.109 myself with, it seemed like it wasn't until about 00:24:05.109 --> 00:24:10.450 2016 -ish when there was some events. There's 00:24:10.450 --> 00:24:13.289 one local firefighter, fire chief that took his 00:24:13.289 --> 00:24:15.130 own life and he had a Facebook post that took 00:24:15.130 --> 00:24:17.769 off. And that was, I would say, one of the catalysts 00:24:17.769 --> 00:24:19.450 really that got this conversation going. But 00:24:19.450 --> 00:24:22.789 that's not even 10 years ago, nine years ago. 00:24:22.910 --> 00:24:26.559 So such a short time. When was this realization? 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:29.460 And then what was the environment as far as the 00:24:29.460 --> 00:24:32.140 stigma that was suppressing these statistics 00:24:32.140 --> 00:24:37.460 and these conversations happening? So for me, 00:24:37.539 --> 00:24:43.160 early on, I would say within the first two to 00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:45.500 three years is when I really started to pay attention 00:24:45.500 --> 00:24:49.980 to how often we were hearing, oh, there was another 00:24:49.980 --> 00:24:53.829 individual that took his life. And we have a 00:24:53.829 --> 00:24:56.190 pretty big department in Chicago. So it wasn't 00:24:56.190 --> 00:24:59.450 just like in my actual district, which is what 00:24:59.450 --> 00:25:02.150 we call like a precinct or station. It didn't 00:25:02.150 --> 00:25:04.789 have to be from ours. It was anywhere in the 00:25:04.789 --> 00:25:08.630 city, any precinct, any unit. And it was just 00:25:08.630 --> 00:25:11.230 pretty devastating. Even if we didn't know the 00:25:11.230 --> 00:25:14.470 individual, we didn't know, we never really worked 00:25:14.470 --> 00:25:16.509 with the individual. It was just so painful. 00:25:16.549 --> 00:25:18.730 And then when you did know somebody that was 00:25:18.730 --> 00:25:22.039 reacting to. to that death that actually knew 00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:23.900 the individual it was just that much more heartbreaking 00:25:23.900 --> 00:25:29.460 um and no it was just there was no talk about 00:25:29.460 --> 00:25:33.880 it no conversations just questions and assuming 00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:36.599 what caused it right everyone was always looking 00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:39.900 for a cause of of death in a sense right like 00:25:39.900 --> 00:25:42.119 what well oh well you know i heard it was because 00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:44.680 john was going through a divorce you know as 00:25:45.230 --> 00:25:47.190 It's to say that, you know, the divorce is what 00:25:47.190 --> 00:25:51.150 caused the suicide. And for me, I was like, I'll 00:25:51.150 --> 00:25:53.650 never forget it. Very early on, I was just kind 00:25:53.650 --> 00:25:56.970 of like, wow, that I know we have a high divorce 00:25:56.970 --> 00:26:00.180 rate in our field, but. man, if that were the 00:26:00.180 --> 00:26:02.220 case, then we're all going to be killing ourselves. 00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:05.519 Like, this is crazy. So for me, I felt like there's 00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:07.279 something missing. Like, there's more to this. 00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:09.019 There has to be. There's just no way it could 00:26:09.019 --> 00:26:11.460 be because of that one particular thing. And 00:26:11.460 --> 00:26:14.160 so sure enough, as I continued on with my studies 00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:16.079 and research and all of that, that's where I 00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:20.240 came to learn that, yeah, it's a lot more than 00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:24.059 people understand, than people think that really 00:26:24.059 --> 00:26:26.259 contributes to an individual getting to this 00:26:26.259 --> 00:26:30.359 point. So walk me through, again, the kind of 00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:33.059 evolution of your psychology journey. Now you're 00:26:33.059 --> 00:26:36.039 actually wearing the uniform. Where did you go 00:26:36.039 --> 00:26:38.980 academically and where did that take you as far 00:26:38.980 --> 00:26:41.539 as starting to identify the multiple factors 00:26:41.539 --> 00:26:46.400 that contribute to suicide? So I went back to 00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:49.640 get my master's degree in forensic psychology. 00:26:50.740 --> 00:26:54.660 I also had to do 700 hours of clinical work for 00:26:54.660 --> 00:26:59.200 that field. And then I became interested in really 00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:02.079 just continuing the work within trauma and suicide 00:27:02.079 --> 00:27:05.380 for first responders. And I ended up getting 00:27:05.380 --> 00:27:09.480 certified to do suicide psychological autopsies 00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:15.019 as an investigator. So I went through an association 00:27:15.019 --> 00:27:19.759 where I had to go through training and submit 00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:22.819 cases and just go through the whole process once 00:27:22.819 --> 00:27:26.660 I was certified. And then I started to do these 00:27:26.660 --> 00:27:30.680 psychological autopsies on cases of other first 00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:34.099 responders whose families I would approach about 00:27:34.099 --> 00:27:36.680 the work that I'm doing and why I'm doing it 00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:41.720 to try to get more information and try to navigate 00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:45.460 and figure out, is there a way that we can maybe 00:27:45.460 --> 00:27:48.200 start reducing these suicides, turn this around? 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:52.240 provide a more proactive approach instead of 00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:55.980 being so reactive. Because at the time then, 00:27:56.059 --> 00:28:01.420 even now still, our approach to suicide is simply 00:28:01.420 --> 00:28:06.720 reactive. And all we tend to do is have a suicide 00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:09.240 occur. And this is anywhere in the country. And 00:28:09.240 --> 00:28:12.000 I've seen this through all agencies. You have 00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:14.420 the suicide, it occurs, everyone has a reaction 00:28:14.420 --> 00:28:19.390 to it, mostly an emotional response. And everyone 00:28:19.390 --> 00:28:22.170 understands and agrees that this is a horrific, 00:28:22.390 --> 00:28:26.309 worst case scenario that can happen. However, 00:28:26.630 --> 00:28:29.349 five to seven days after we've laid the person 00:28:29.349 --> 00:28:31.849 to rest, we're back to business as usual. And 00:28:31.849 --> 00:28:33.849 then we wait for the next one to happen. And 00:28:33.849 --> 00:28:37.410 when it does, it happens exactly the same way 00:28:37.410 --> 00:28:39.769 with the same response. And that's all we're 00:28:39.769 --> 00:28:42.829 doing. And so it's kind of like, you know, everyone 00:28:42.829 --> 00:28:45.150 understands what the definition of insanity is. 00:28:45.559 --> 00:28:48.960 yet we keep living it every single day no one's 00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:50.759 really trying to get to the bottom of understanding 00:28:50.759 --> 00:28:53.579 like why why does this happen how does this happen 00:28:53.579 --> 00:28:56.700 is there anything that we can potentially do 00:28:56.700 --> 00:28:59.759 like really understand especially through those 00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:02.680 cases of the individuals that unfortunately we've 00:29:02.680 --> 00:29:07.039 lost um how we owe it to them and their families 00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:09.299 how can we get to the bottom of understanding 00:29:09.299 --> 00:29:11.480 okay let's take this case what happened here 00:29:11.980 --> 00:29:13.460 You know, what was going on with the individual? 00:29:13.559 --> 00:29:16.200 Is there anything that we could potentially put 00:29:16.200 --> 00:29:19.559 in place to intervene, to be more proactive so 00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:21.740 that, you know, this doesn't continue to happen 00:29:21.740 --> 00:29:24.819 maybe as often as it is? And so that's really 00:29:24.819 --> 00:29:28.220 where my journey began. And I've continued to 00:29:28.220 --> 00:29:33.420 conduct those psychological suicide autopsies. 00:29:35.169 --> 00:29:38.049 The reactive element, I think, is exactly what 00:29:38.049 --> 00:29:40.990 we suffer from in the fire, especially like law 00:29:40.990 --> 00:29:42.809 enforcement. There's an element of prevention, 00:29:42.990 --> 00:29:44.529 you know, whether you're putting a speed trap 00:29:44.529 --> 00:29:46.109 out and people are slowing down or there's a 00:29:46.109 --> 00:29:48.269 cop and you probably prevented an accident there. 00:29:48.490 --> 00:29:51.869 For us, you've got yourself in whatever predicament 00:29:51.869 --> 00:29:54.329 medically, physically, and then you call us. 00:29:54.369 --> 00:29:56.230 I'm having my worst day. Firefighters come and 00:29:56.230 --> 00:29:59.450 please mitigate and unfuck the situation. But 00:29:59.450 --> 00:30:01.210 we've got that, you know, the people that are 00:30:01.210 --> 00:30:03.529 in our leadership started in a fire academy. 00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:06.880 They didn't start in a leadership academy. They 00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:09.980 didn't start in a proactive think tank. And so 00:30:09.980 --> 00:30:13.940 we've been groomed to be reactive. And I see 00:30:13.940 --> 00:30:16.380 this at the top now. And I see this in this conversation. 00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:18.980 And I'm so glad that you said that because locally, 00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:22.019 they've lost. The department that protects my 00:30:22.019 --> 00:30:25.200 family has lost four people in uniform to suicide 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:28.160 in four years. A fifth one survived their attempt. 00:30:28.380 --> 00:30:30.980 And a sixth one had left the agency, I think, 00:30:30.980 --> 00:30:33.680 not too long ago and then went to another agency 00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:36.059 and took his own life. So technically, that's, 00:30:36.059 --> 00:30:39.819 you know, five actual and one attempted in four 00:30:39.819 --> 00:30:42.640 years. And they just stick their head in the 00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:44.460 sand and keep doing the same thing. And they've 00:30:44.460 --> 00:30:46.599 been exposed to some of the proactive solutions. 00:30:47.140 --> 00:30:50.079 And this is, you know, what's so... There's a 00:30:50.079 --> 00:30:52.660 Desmond Tutu quote. It says, we spend so much 00:30:52.660 --> 00:30:55.299 time pulling people out of the river, we forget 00:30:55.299 --> 00:30:57.299 to go upstream and find out why they're falling 00:30:57.299 --> 00:30:59.740 in in the first place. And this is what we need 00:30:59.740 --> 00:31:04.299 to do as a profession. Yeah, absolutely. There 00:31:04.299 --> 00:31:08.720 are as I do these, I start to see because I really 00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:12.299 go really deep into an individual's life from 00:31:12.299 --> 00:31:14.940 the time of death as far back as I need to go. 00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:18.079 In some cases, I will reach, you know, will tap 00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:20.599 into childhood. I know a lot of people are like, 00:31:20.619 --> 00:31:22.140 oh, you know, that was back when I was a kid. 00:31:22.220 --> 00:31:24.319 That was a long time ago. I'm an adult now. Like 00:31:24.319 --> 00:31:26.200 I got through all of that. And it's like, OK, 00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:28.579 that's what you think and that's what you say. 00:31:28.700 --> 00:31:32.339 However, I have seen how. A lot of individuals, 00:31:32.619 --> 00:31:35.980 most individuals, a lot of their childhood experiences, 00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:40.319 childhood traumas and all of that really have 00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:43.839 an effect, an impact on who they are today. And 00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:48.099 still, even as you're a 30, 40, 50 year old individual, 00:31:48.380 --> 00:31:50.900 there are still impacts from childhood that you 00:31:50.900 --> 00:31:53.619 think you've gotten over that don't affect you. 00:31:53.660 --> 00:31:56.220 And they really do. They continue to affect you. 00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:59.299 They really mold how you. your behaviors and 00:31:59.299 --> 00:32:02.200 how the you know the decisions you make and how 00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:06.799 you move around in life yeah it was really interesting 00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:10.099 i had a guy on jake clark who's uh from the the 00:32:10.099 --> 00:32:12.880 founder of saver warrior and he's the first person 00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:15.380 that actually really made me think about early 00:32:15.380 --> 00:32:18.180 life for us and then you start learning that 00:32:18.180 --> 00:32:20.900 you know i know this is kind of a generalization 00:32:20.900 --> 00:32:24.720 but a lot of us our aces you know our adverse 00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:28.180 childhood experience scores are six as are many 00:32:28.180 --> 00:32:31.259 military members, as are many incarcerated men 00:32:31.259 --> 00:32:34.599 and women. And so if you think about it, you 00:32:34.599 --> 00:32:37.019 had struggles when you were young, you know, 00:32:37.019 --> 00:32:38.980 that can send you obviously down a dark path 00:32:38.980 --> 00:32:41.039 of addiction and alcoholism when you're young, 00:32:41.119 --> 00:32:43.579 or it can send you down the path of, well, I'm 00:32:43.579 --> 00:32:45.160 going to be a warrior. I'm going to cover myself 00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:47.500 in armor and I'm going to be the protector. I'm 00:32:47.500 --> 00:32:48.960 going to be so busy that I don't have to think 00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:50.500 about that thing. I'm going to bury it down. 00:32:50.740 --> 00:32:53.359 So it makes so much sense that so many of us 00:32:53.359 --> 00:32:57.220 have this. And to turn your head away from the 00:32:57.220 --> 00:33:00.579 formative years, you're missing such a huge piece 00:33:00.579 --> 00:33:04.960 of this puzzle. Yeah, I find that a lot of first 00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:09.880 responders and military, we tend to have had 00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:13.180 something one way or another. And it doesn't 00:33:13.180 --> 00:33:15.779 have to be severe, but somehow something in our 00:33:15.779 --> 00:33:21.099 young childhood years and that early adulthood, 00:33:21.559 --> 00:33:25.339 something. happened, something struck us, something 00:33:25.339 --> 00:33:30.759 really impacted us where, and a lot of the times 00:33:30.759 --> 00:33:33.640 it's trauma of some, to some degree, again, it 00:33:33.640 --> 00:33:37.579 doesn't have to be super severe, but where now 00:33:37.579 --> 00:33:42.730 we want to help others. not have to experience 00:33:42.730 --> 00:33:46.230 whatever that was, you know, and we want to be 00:33:46.230 --> 00:33:49.569 able to be there to protect others from what 00:33:49.569 --> 00:33:52.789 maybe we've experienced, something along those 00:33:52.789 --> 00:33:59.190 lines. And I do love that these individuals want 00:33:59.190 --> 00:34:01.910 to do good for the world and, you know, we all 00:34:01.910 --> 00:34:05.029 want to help. However, you know, people don't 00:34:05.029 --> 00:34:07.980 really believe this saying that. you know if 00:34:07.980 --> 00:34:10.019 you can't if you don't help yourself you can't 00:34:10.019 --> 00:34:12.059 help others like you're no good to others and 00:34:12.059 --> 00:34:16.199 so the problem becomes that you know i know people 00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:19.019 we've gone through things and want to help others 00:34:19.019 --> 00:34:23.440 but if you haven't unpacked all your and you 00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:25.920 haven't gotten through it all and you haven't 00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:28.880 processed your own traumas your own issues and 00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:32.579 try to work on yourself um it's only going to 00:34:32.579 --> 00:34:35.019 continue to build it doesn't just stop and pause 00:34:35.019 --> 00:34:36.980 and all of a sudden you're just magically like 00:34:36.980 --> 00:34:40.079 great you're gonna have more issues to deal with 00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:43.800 um other people's traumas and problems and things 00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:46.559 you experience in this line of work it just adds 00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:50.059 to what you already uh what you already haven't 00:34:50.059 --> 00:34:52.900 dealt with and so that's where we start to see 00:34:52.900 --> 00:34:56.260 the issues people not processing and dealing 00:34:56.260 --> 00:35:00.480 with their own issues And yet we want to help 00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:03.639 others. And that's so great and noble. But you 00:35:03.639 --> 00:35:06.260 really have to focus and make yourself good and 00:35:06.260 --> 00:35:09.039 better before you can take care of anyone else. 00:35:09.179 --> 00:35:11.179 And that's just how that's the reality of life. 00:35:12.059 --> 00:35:14.420 It's been really interesting. I've interviewed 00:35:14.420 --> 00:35:19.360 over a thousand people now. And so I'm not exaggerating. 00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:23.360 A third, if not a half of those people have been 00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:26.820 at that point. And there's such a strong correlation 00:35:26.820 --> 00:35:29.559 between people that got to the absolute darkest 00:35:29.559 --> 00:35:31.079 point. Some of them went through their attempt 00:35:31.079 --> 00:35:33.679 and they survived. Kevin Hines on the Golden 00:35:33.679 --> 00:35:36.340 Gate Bridge and Emma Benoit shot herself as 18 00:35:36.340 --> 00:35:39.280 years old. And now they're amazing beacons of 00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:43.119 light in the mental health world. But almost 00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:46.400 every single one of those, they had this childhood 00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:49.219 trauma and it was unaddressed. And I think this 00:35:49.219 --> 00:35:51.880 is where we need to put hope in the post -traumatic 00:35:51.880 --> 00:35:54.219 growth conversation is just because you had trauma 00:35:54.219 --> 00:35:56.500 doesn't mean that now you're going to spiral 00:35:56.500 --> 00:35:58.800 downwards and fall apart as a first responder. 00:35:59.380 --> 00:36:01.480 It's just that you weren't given the environment 00:36:01.480 --> 00:36:03.900 when you were younger to work through that. I 00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:05.960 was so fortunate. I talk about this all the time. 00:36:06.019 --> 00:36:08.039 I had a lot of stuff when I was young, but I 00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:10.500 grew up on a farm. My dad was a vet. a veterinary 00:36:10.500 --> 00:36:12.980 surgeon. So we were healing animals. I'm one 00:36:12.980 --> 00:36:15.159 of five kids. We ate around the dining room table 00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:17.380 all the time. I was surrounded by therapy animals, 00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:20.019 basically. I was in nature. I had fresh air. 00:36:20.119 --> 00:36:22.519 I had community. So all the things that we know 00:36:22.519 --> 00:36:26.639 work by a sheer, you know, Russian roulette that 00:36:26.639 --> 00:36:29.840 I was born in that family. I had equally and 00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:32.179 oppositely things that allowed me to process 00:36:32.179 --> 00:36:35.179 the bad things as we were going along. So I think 00:36:35.179 --> 00:36:38.750 this is what's so encouraging about. the type 00:36:38.750 --> 00:36:40.710 of people that find themselves in uniform is 00:36:40.710 --> 00:36:43.510 that you can be more resilient from this. Once 00:36:43.510 --> 00:36:45.989 you identify it and you find your toolbox to 00:36:45.989 --> 00:36:48.210 work through it, you're going to be an even better 00:36:48.210 --> 00:36:51.269 police officer, firefighter, dispatch after you've 00:36:51.269 --> 00:36:55.530 done the work. Yeah, absolutely. I think one 00:36:55.530 --> 00:36:58.130 of the conversations, I do appreciate that we're 00:36:58.130 --> 00:37:01.710 living in a society today where we're you know 00:37:01.710 --> 00:37:03.650 people are trying to address mental health especially 00:37:03.650 --> 00:37:05.829 for our populations right and the work that we 00:37:05.829 --> 00:37:09.150 do they're starting to realize aha actually they 00:37:09.150 --> 00:37:11.909 are human beings and the way it works is that 00:37:11.909 --> 00:37:14.449 you know these things will catch up to them it 00:37:14.449 --> 00:37:17.690 will be difficult to deal with um and that and 00:37:17.690 --> 00:37:20.510 that's pretty normal right because if we were 00:37:20.510 --> 00:37:23.750 machines or robots it would be different but 00:37:23.750 --> 00:37:26.650 we're not so all this does have an effect one 00:37:26.650 --> 00:37:29.860 way or another on you even if it's minor or, 00:37:29.860 --> 00:37:34.800 you know, major. I think I do appreciate we're 00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:36.619 having more of the talk about mental health and 00:37:36.619 --> 00:37:38.860 all, but no one's really touching on suicide. 00:37:39.139 --> 00:37:41.940 And I think what really needs to be understood 00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:45.159 is that when we talk about trauma, we talk about 00:37:45.159 --> 00:37:48.440 mental health, we talk about all of that. It's 00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:50.480 important for people to understand that if we 00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:53.199 get ahead of it, if we start being proactive, 00:37:53.340 --> 00:37:56.489 we deal with those things. instead of worrying 00:37:56.489 --> 00:37:59.010 about the stigma or for whatever reason, we just 00:37:59.010 --> 00:38:04.329 keep trying to just shove it down and be in denial 00:38:04.329 --> 00:38:06.829 of it. If we deal with it and we deal with it 00:38:06.829 --> 00:38:09.269 in a healthy manner and we deal with it early 00:38:09.269 --> 00:38:13.289 on, you won't have to worry about the likelihood 00:38:13.289 --> 00:38:16.449 of you falling into crisis, right? Because you're 00:38:16.449 --> 00:38:19.349 dealing with it early on. It's when people have 00:38:19.349 --> 00:38:23.039 no... healthy coping mechanisms or tools for 00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:25.840 self -care when you're not dealing with it and 00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:28.260 you fall into crisis it's just that much harder 00:38:28.260 --> 00:38:32.360 to come out of and then now you're the likelihood 00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:35.219 of you continuing to spiral even further into 00:38:35.219 --> 00:38:38.599 a darker deeper hole in the direction of suicide 00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:42.179 is greater so people need to start thinking about 00:38:42.179 --> 00:38:44.460 you know not worried about oh what are people 00:38:44.460 --> 00:38:47.590 going to think of me or you know the stigma People 00:38:47.590 --> 00:38:49.610 need to start thinking about how with anything 00:38:49.610 --> 00:38:52.010 else, if we had something medically wrong with 00:38:52.010 --> 00:38:54.550 us, for the most part, no one's going to sit 00:38:54.550 --> 00:38:56.849 there and say, yep, I'm just going to engage 00:38:56.849 --> 00:38:59.309 in that one thing that's going to give me the 00:38:59.309 --> 00:39:01.409 heart attack. Yeah, sign me up for it. No, you're 00:39:01.409 --> 00:39:04.309 going to try in some way or another to avoid, 00:39:04.550 --> 00:39:06.789 you know, something that you know will take you 00:39:06.789 --> 00:39:08.429 in that direction. We need to start doing that 00:39:08.429 --> 00:39:10.190 with mental health, just like when we do it for 00:39:10.190 --> 00:39:13.289 any medical issue. So this is an interesting 00:39:13.289 --> 00:39:14.889 question for you. I think we talked about this 00:39:14.889 --> 00:39:17.420 when we spoke a few weeks ago, but. Through, 00:39:17.420 --> 00:39:20.699 again, this constant education I'm getting through 00:39:20.699 --> 00:39:24.059 speaking to all these amazing people, I started 00:39:24.059 --> 00:39:27.579 realizing that the arguably insane test that 00:39:27.579 --> 00:39:29.219 I kept taking, because I worked for four different 00:39:29.219 --> 00:39:31.579 fire departments, it didn't make any sense to 00:39:31.579 --> 00:39:34.420 me then. And so I started asking the people in 00:39:34.420 --> 00:39:37.440 psychology, psychiatry, this test that we take, 00:39:37.460 --> 00:39:40.019 and I discover it's called the Minnesota Multiphasic 00:39:40.019 --> 00:39:43.519 Personality Interview. And I said, you know, 00:39:43.519 --> 00:39:46.079 talk to me about the ability of that standalone 00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:49.099 test to determine if I'm going to be a worthy 00:39:49.099 --> 00:39:51.699 firefighter or police officer. So I'm going to 00:39:51.699 --> 00:39:54.820 give you the mic. Talk to me about that test 00:39:54.820 --> 00:39:58.699 and talk to me about its ability to, you know, 00:39:58.699 --> 00:40:00.820 verify if we're the right kind of person and 00:40:00.820 --> 00:40:04.039 we're mentally sound for a job in the first responder 00:40:04.039 --> 00:40:08.820 professions. So it's interesting with that test. 00:40:09.400 --> 00:40:11.840 Because I think what they're really looking for 00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:14.900 is to see if, you know, we all have different 00:40:14.900 --> 00:40:17.659 characteristics of all those different personalities. 00:40:17.659 --> 00:40:20.400 Right. But I think they're trying to maybe weed 00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:23.699 out like the ones that are really severe, specific 00:40:23.699 --> 00:40:29.579 to one or another. I never really got why we 00:40:29.579 --> 00:40:33.480 really focus so much on that exam as opposed 00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:37.119 to. when we do the like fit for duty evaluations 00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:39.980 where we're really trying to measure more so 00:40:39.980 --> 00:40:43.380 like what your mental status is as far as like 00:40:43.380 --> 00:40:45.840 that you're not suicidal that you're not a threat 00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:48.679 to others and you're not trying to harm yourself 00:40:48.679 --> 00:40:52.059 or others i think those make more sense for me 00:40:52.059 --> 00:40:57.320 uh for me when i look at that um but yeah and 00:40:57.320 --> 00:40:59.719 i think in our agency if i recall i don't really 00:40:59.719 --> 00:41:04.840 recall that you know it was so long ago Um, but 00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:06.940 that personality test, they didn't really push 00:41:06.940 --> 00:41:08.900 that as much as, as much as they were trying 00:41:08.900 --> 00:41:11.539 to measure, like whether you were, you know, 00:41:11.539 --> 00:41:16.059 mentally, if you were, if you were of sound mind 00:41:16.059 --> 00:41:18.159 in the sense that you weren't, you know, a threat 00:41:18.159 --> 00:41:20.460 to yourself, to others, that you weren't suicidal, 00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:25.420 um, that you weren't actually, um, uh, crimes 00:41:25.420 --> 00:41:27.400 that you had committed that you're trying to 00:41:27.400 --> 00:41:31.880 not disclose. drugs or any anything like that 00:41:31.880 --> 00:41:34.019 that was like really more of the the concern 00:41:34.019 --> 00:41:39.840 then i just interviewed a guy don who um uh dan 00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:42.900 excuse me his name is dan who does background 00:41:42.900 --> 00:41:44.880 checks now former law enforcement officer is 00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:49.260 himself and this is kind of one thing that seems 00:41:49.260 --> 00:41:51.619 like might be a better fit is you're going to 00:41:51.619 --> 00:41:53.579 do a physical test because this person fit enough 00:41:53.579 --> 00:41:55.500 you're going to do a written test so they understand 00:41:55.500 --> 00:41:57.480 the job you're going to do a thorough background 00:41:57.480 --> 00:41:59.940 check which you know should show okay they've 00:41:59.940 --> 00:42:02.340 done this or that or you know whatever is this 00:42:02.340 --> 00:42:04.639 detrimental is this something that we can overlook 00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:06.900 because it was minor and it was you know 15 years 00:42:06.900 --> 00:42:09.400 ago whatever it is but that tells you about the 00:42:09.400 --> 00:42:13.079 person but the mmpi which i'm told usually in 00:42:13.079 --> 00:42:16.119 psychology is used forensic psychologist. So 00:42:16.119 --> 00:42:18.159 with a gamut of other tests to give an overall 00:42:18.159 --> 00:42:22.280 view of a person, rather than giving that and 00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:24.780 or the polygraph, which I did three times as 00:42:24.780 --> 00:42:26.900 well, which is, you know, really interesting 00:42:26.900 --> 00:42:31.380 magic show. Yeah. You know, you don't get that 00:42:31.380 --> 00:42:33.960 one. No, I mean, you know, we don't do it. Yeah. 00:42:34.099 --> 00:42:36.000 Yeah. You're grooming people to life, basically. 00:42:36.500 --> 00:42:39.300 But back to the point. So you've got all this 00:42:39.300 --> 00:42:43.030 money, thousands per recruit. To me, why not 00:42:43.030 --> 00:42:46.889 take that money and give these recruits X amount 00:42:46.889 --> 00:42:49.570 of counseling sessions at the front door, their 00:42:49.570 --> 00:42:52.710 first year. So now you're giving them an opportunity 00:42:52.710 --> 00:42:55.610 to start processing what they brought in. You're 00:42:55.610 --> 00:42:58.449 normalizing the mental health conversation from 00:42:58.449 --> 00:43:01.489 day one. And you've removed any barrier to entry 00:43:01.489 --> 00:43:03.769 because they already know Susie or Steve now. 00:43:03.889 --> 00:43:06.219 And anytime they need a tune up. They know exactly 00:43:06.219 --> 00:43:09.059 where to go. So to me, when you're talking about 00:43:09.059 --> 00:43:11.559 that culture and that stigma, if you've got a 00:43:11.559 --> 00:43:13.679 new recruit and then the academy and then day 00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:16.019 one, you're already talking about this is as 00:43:16.019 --> 00:43:18.920 important as the PT is. I think you could change 00:43:18.920 --> 00:43:22.960 the entire culture then. Yeah, there's been a 00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:26.380 lot of agencies that I've come across around 00:43:26.380 --> 00:43:30.320 the country that are really that particular conversation 00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:35.530 has come up. The question of do we mandate? And 00:43:35.530 --> 00:43:37.489 not just like in the beginning in the recruit 00:43:37.489 --> 00:43:40.909 status, like in the academy, but even in the 00:43:40.909 --> 00:43:43.690 whole department, do we mandate that everybody 00:43:43.690 --> 00:43:47.010 has to see a clinician at least once? And if 00:43:47.010 --> 00:43:50.730 you kind of umbrella it over everybody, it kind 00:43:50.730 --> 00:43:54.789 of like helps with that stigma. And there's a 00:43:54.789 --> 00:43:56.869 lot of different debates around that. Right. 00:43:57.429 --> 00:44:00.170 And then, you know, because we are most of these 00:44:00.170 --> 00:44:03.880 agencies around the country, they are. unionized 00:44:03.880 --> 00:44:07.880 and they have the union that, you know, there's 00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:11.460 all these rights and laws and all of that. I 00:44:11.460 --> 00:44:15.139 think at the very least, what we should be doing 00:44:15.139 --> 00:44:19.800 is just having the conversation about, first 00:44:19.800 --> 00:44:23.079 of all, just about mental health, which we're 00:44:23.079 --> 00:44:25.280 starting to do a little bit more, but really 00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:28.099 just starting to educate everybody, provide the 00:44:28.099 --> 00:44:31.539 psychoeducation. on what it is that this all 00:44:31.539 --> 00:44:33.920 looks like right because we can just say oh go 00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:37.260 get help go go talk to somebody go go do this 00:44:37.260 --> 00:44:40.219 and most of us who are not in this field are 00:44:40.219 --> 00:44:42.900 like what does that really mean right like you 00:44:42.900 --> 00:44:46.260 can tell me go get help okay from who and what 00:44:46.260 --> 00:44:49.239 kind of help what are my options how does that 00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:51.099 even begin like do i pick up a phone do i call 00:44:51.099 --> 00:44:53.579 someone do i google it like people really don't 00:44:53.579 --> 00:44:56.780 know this information and so when i actually 00:44:56.780 --> 00:45:00.670 um started to do this work and I started to see 00:45:00.670 --> 00:45:07.190 a lot of the suicide autopsy data, one of the 00:45:07.190 --> 00:45:09.590 things that I really started to find was the 00:45:09.590 --> 00:45:14.010 amount of individuals that really just have no 00:45:14.010 --> 00:45:16.690 knowledge on things that you would think, oh, 00:45:16.730 --> 00:45:19.530 well, don't we all know that? No, we just don't. 00:45:19.530 --> 00:45:23.360 We assume we do, right? There's so much that 00:45:23.360 --> 00:45:25.559 people don't understand that they're going through. 00:45:25.659 --> 00:45:28.239 Like they don't really realize, like we may know 00:45:28.239 --> 00:45:30.480 something's off with us. We may know things aren't 00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:32.960 right, but we don't know exactly what it is. 00:45:33.019 --> 00:45:34.800 And then we don't know who to turn to because 00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:37.880 we're the breed of individuals that are always 00:45:37.880 --> 00:45:41.280 in control, right? We're always the ones that 00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:43.539 everyone comes to for answers and for decisions 00:45:43.539 --> 00:45:46.519 to be made. So now when we find ourselves in 00:45:46.519 --> 00:45:49.000 a space where we're not sure what to do or what's 00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:51.340 going on, that's really hard to deal with. That's 00:45:51.340 --> 00:45:54.280 a very difficult pill to swallow. And so for 00:45:54.280 --> 00:45:55.900 us, it's just easier to be like, no, no, no, 00:45:55.900 --> 00:45:57.500 I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. And just be in 00:45:57.500 --> 00:46:00.219 denial of it and just try to look in the other 00:46:00.219 --> 00:46:03.920 direction. So I'm finding that there's a huge 00:46:03.920 --> 00:46:07.320 knowledge gap when it comes to our own self -care, 00:46:07.460 --> 00:46:10.840 mental health, you know, all the way, like everything 00:46:10.840 --> 00:46:14.019 that contributes and puts you at risk for suicide. 00:46:14.599 --> 00:46:16.960 You know, it's not until people are so deep in 00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:19.719 it that now it's like, oh shit, like, what do 00:46:19.719 --> 00:46:21.340 we do? How do we, what do we, how do we come 00:46:21.340 --> 00:46:23.340 out of this? Or no one knows really what to do. 00:46:23.500 --> 00:46:25.860 We don't know what to do for others. You know 00:46:25.860 --> 00:46:27.539 what I mean? Who are in those situations, our 00:46:27.539 --> 00:46:30.920 fellow coworkers. So I think what, what I started 00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:33.539 to see was that there was a gap of knowledge 00:46:33.539 --> 00:46:36.420 that needed to be filled. And by providing that 00:46:36.420 --> 00:46:40.139 psychoeducation, just like our agencies will 00:46:40.139 --> 00:46:44.219 provide any kind of training for us on. I don't 00:46:44.219 --> 00:46:46.619 know, as police officers, here's how you're going 00:46:46.619 --> 00:46:48.960 to handle this weapon. No one threw a gun at 00:46:48.960 --> 00:46:51.300 me and said, go figure it out, little 23 -year 00:46:51.300 --> 00:46:54.440 -old Liz. I mean, everything from how to handle 00:46:54.440 --> 00:46:56.639 the weapon, how to disassemble it, how to clean 00:46:56.639 --> 00:46:59.800 it, how to shoot, everything. I was taught. They 00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:03.539 gave me the skill set. Same with fire. You know, 00:47:03.579 --> 00:47:07.880 they don't just throw you on the fire truck and 00:47:07.880 --> 00:47:09.860 say, figure out how this thing works and what 00:47:09.860 --> 00:47:12.650 to do. They walk you through all that training. 00:47:12.670 --> 00:47:15.190 You go through such intense training. Why aren't 00:47:15.190 --> 00:47:18.769 we doing that when it comes to our self -care 00:47:18.769 --> 00:47:21.630 and the fact that, hey, if you do this job for 00:47:21.630 --> 00:47:24.170 a while, there are going to be experiences that 00:47:24.170 --> 00:47:28.449 you're going to have, right, from the job that 00:47:28.449 --> 00:47:31.630 may be kind of. you know, gets in the way of 00:47:31.630 --> 00:47:34.690 like your personal life and vice versa and how 00:47:34.690 --> 00:47:37.150 to handle that and what are some possible tips 00:47:37.150 --> 00:47:41.030 and ways and options for you to be able to balance 00:47:41.030 --> 00:47:44.409 it all and navigate the traumas from the job, 00:47:44.449 --> 00:47:47.710 the traumas before the job that, you know, will 00:47:47.710 --> 00:47:49.750 now be triggered from things that you're dealing 00:47:49.750 --> 00:47:52.010 with in your personal life and the job and so 00:47:52.010 --> 00:47:55.050 on. We need to give these people the tools and 00:47:55.050 --> 00:47:58.550 the knowledge so that they can cope and deal 00:47:58.550 --> 00:48:02.050 with their issues in a healthy manner, get through 00:48:02.050 --> 00:48:05.190 it and just move on in a healthy way so that 00:48:05.190 --> 00:48:07.849 they can continue to work these careers, eventually 00:48:07.849 --> 00:48:10.570 retire. And the most important thing is once 00:48:10.570 --> 00:48:12.809 they're done with these jobs and they retire, 00:48:13.070 --> 00:48:16.010 they can actually continue to live these healthy, 00:48:16.070 --> 00:48:18.789 amazing lives. It'll actually be the beginning 00:48:18.789 --> 00:48:22.329 of a new chapter for them to live an even more 00:48:22.329 --> 00:48:27.480 amazing life after such service to society. I've 00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:31.039 been saying this recently. You and I, we're standing 00:48:31.039 --> 00:48:32.920 on the shoulders of giants when it comes to our 00:48:32.920 --> 00:48:35.000 professions, whether it was firearms training 00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:38.360 and tactics for you, whether it was the SCBA 00:48:38.360 --> 00:48:42.280 and the extrication training for me. And I think 00:48:42.280 --> 00:48:45.199 that our generation now, the gift that we can 00:48:45.199 --> 00:48:47.139 give to the next one is actually the wellness, 00:48:47.340 --> 00:48:50.179 the mental health, the shifts, all these things 00:48:50.179 --> 00:48:53.250 that we can start fixing now. So this next generation 00:48:53.250 --> 00:48:55.909 of young people enters a profession. They've 00:48:55.909 --> 00:48:58.070 got the tactics that's constantly evolving that 00:48:58.070 --> 00:49:01.289 was off our ancestors. And now we've started 00:49:01.289 --> 00:49:03.489 fighting for the mental health, for the fitness 00:49:03.489 --> 00:49:07.309 standards, for the work week that allows performance 00:49:07.309 --> 00:49:09.969 and longevity and keeps marriages intact. So 00:49:09.969 --> 00:49:13.250 I think that we really can be pioneers. All of 00:49:13.250 --> 00:49:16.309 us that kind of came on 20 -ish years ago, it's 00:49:16.309 --> 00:49:19.650 up to us now to make those same innovations that 00:49:19.650 --> 00:49:23.980 our forefathers did. Yeah, I think one thing 00:49:23.980 --> 00:49:28.559 that I notice about this younger group nowadays 00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:31.260 that is coming on the job, like, you know, around 00:49:31.260 --> 00:49:34.960 this time today, they're younger, their generation, 00:49:35.179 --> 00:49:39.159 they're actually. uh willing to hear it right 00:49:39.159 --> 00:49:41.519 when if we're if we're getting them early on 00:49:41.519 --> 00:49:44.960 at the entry level at recruit status in the academy 00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:47.860 um they're actually we're normalizing it for 00:49:47.860 --> 00:49:50.880 them early on it's not like you know because 00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:53.780 once you get out there and you you know you you 00:49:53.780 --> 00:49:56.920 hear the the mindset of like oh you know tough 00:49:56.920 --> 00:50:00.000 it up kid you know like you're weak if you know 00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:03.539 that now you're kind of molding that you know 00:50:03.539 --> 00:50:07.000 um their way of thinking um and here's the thing 00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:11.920 i can say that i appreciate um 21 years ago when 00:50:11.920 --> 00:50:14.440 i got on this job a lot of those old -timers 00:50:14.440 --> 00:50:16.880 that had that mindset of like toughen up kid 00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:19.119 you know like shut up and you know speak when 00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:21.219 spoken to it was different it was very different 00:50:21.219 --> 00:50:25.219 i will say i could appreciate the fact that you 00:50:25.219 --> 00:50:27.119 know i learned so much from those individuals 00:50:27.119 --> 00:50:31.000 and yeah there was a lot of uh there was resilience 00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:34.210 and and they wanted you to kind of you know like 00:50:34.210 --> 00:50:39.690 be tough to a certain degree however what i say 00:50:39.690 --> 00:50:43.070 to old -timers and people even before those old 00:50:43.070 --> 00:50:46.989 -timers is that the the job the way of life you 00:50:46.989 --> 00:50:50.150 know the world has evolved and as the world evolves 00:50:50.150 --> 00:50:54.469 we need to evolve so i don't trash the way that 00:50:54.469 --> 00:50:58.389 things were done 20 years ago 21 years ago i 00:50:58.389 --> 00:51:00.710 mean that's just all they had right that's the 00:51:00.710 --> 00:51:03.010 way it was because that's the way they were trained 00:51:03.769 --> 00:51:07.409 A lot of those ways did work, but a lot of them 00:51:07.409 --> 00:51:13.110 didn't. And what I will say is the level of crime, 00:51:13.389 --> 00:51:19.050 the gruesomeness, the violence to these crimes, 00:51:19.230 --> 00:51:25.409 how often, how severe. the school shootings for 00:51:25.409 --> 00:51:27.949 instance that's not something that our forefathers 00:51:27.949 --> 00:51:30.829 necessarily dealt with back back back back in 00:51:30.829 --> 00:51:33.469 the day right in the 50s and the 60s and so on 00:51:33.469 --> 00:51:36.829 so because it's evolved this is like intense 00:51:36.829 --> 00:51:41.289 now it's so much more complex and it's so much 00:51:41.289 --> 00:51:44.809 more violent we see it the accessibility we don't 00:51:44.809 --> 00:51:47.050 even have to just be at the job to see it We 00:51:47.050 --> 00:51:48.730 have it in front of our face every day on our 00:51:48.730 --> 00:51:51.110 phones, on social media. We got that vicarious 00:51:51.110 --> 00:51:53.769 trauma because we're seeing things live streamed. 00:51:53.829 --> 00:51:57.550 It's crazy. So as the world evolves, my message 00:51:57.550 --> 00:52:02.030 is we have to evolve. So maybe it worked. And 00:52:02.030 --> 00:52:04.829 in some cases it did back then for some people. 00:52:06.159 --> 00:52:08.719 But what we're living in today, it's just not 00:52:08.719 --> 00:52:11.960 going to cut it anymore. So we have to actually, 00:52:12.059 --> 00:52:14.539 we're kind of like being forced into like, hey, 00:52:14.599 --> 00:52:16.980 after a while, this is going to catch up with 00:52:16.980 --> 00:52:19.280 you and it's going to be a problem. So we do 00:52:19.280 --> 00:52:21.179 have to deal with it. We have to evolve and we 00:52:21.179 --> 00:52:25.119 have to just kind of change our approach. What 00:52:25.119 --> 00:52:30.119 is the contrast between the demand for your profession 00:52:30.119 --> 00:52:32.639 when you first came on, how competitive it was 00:52:32.639 --> 00:52:39.039 versus how it is as we sit here in 2025? Oh, 00:52:39.059 --> 00:52:45.380 man. The demand. I think definitely nowadays 00:52:45.380 --> 00:52:48.619 it's so difficult. First of all, it's just such 00:52:48.619 --> 00:52:53.400 a difficult time for law enforcement specifically, 00:52:53.619 --> 00:52:58.179 you know, and I love our firemen and most people 00:52:58.179 --> 00:53:00.679 do. But unfortunately, that's just not the same 00:53:00.679 --> 00:53:03.139 sentiment towards the police, towards law enforcement. 00:53:04.099 --> 00:53:08.760 So I think it's definitely like. the morale has 00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:13.380 definitely plummeted more. And I think a lot 00:53:13.380 --> 00:53:17.960 of it, there's so many different reasons. Leadership, 00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:20.579 I think is one of the biggest issues as to why 00:53:20.579 --> 00:53:23.039 like they allow that to happen, right? Like you 00:53:23.039 --> 00:53:25.079 need a strong leader to really kind of lead the 00:53:25.079 --> 00:53:30.420 pack. And I think the biggest issue nowadays 00:53:30.420 --> 00:53:35.059 is just having so much. chatter so many it's 00:53:35.059 --> 00:53:36.960 kind of like too many chefs in the kitchen if 00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:41.000 you will um everyone's got something to say everyone's 00:53:41.000 --> 00:53:44.679 critiquing everything and so I can't imagine 00:53:44.679 --> 00:53:50.059 now um having to be a beat cop a beat officer 00:53:50.059 --> 00:53:52.699 on patrol because I'm at a different unit now 00:53:52.699 --> 00:53:55.900 but what they have to deal with because now it's 00:53:55.900 --> 00:53:58.099 like it's not just your supervisors in the department 00:53:58.099 --> 00:54:01.260 your agency critiquing or that you have to answer 00:54:01.260 --> 00:54:05.300 up to it's the public and the fear of you know 00:54:05.300 --> 00:54:07.260 did i do what i was supposed to even though this 00:54:07.260 --> 00:54:09.840 is how i was trained and i'm following protocol 00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:12.719 and i think that's very difficult makes it very 00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:14.599 difficult to do the job you know what i mean 00:54:14.599 --> 00:54:16.800 you're getting you're getting pulled in different 00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:19.559 directions with all that noise and yet you're 00:54:19.559 --> 00:54:24.139 still expected to do the job every day and most 00:54:24.139 --> 00:54:28.389 officers um and most first responders the majority 00:54:28.389 --> 00:54:34.030 of them do a fantastic job every single day they 00:54:34.030 --> 00:54:37.349 selflessly get up they get out there they deal 00:54:37.349 --> 00:54:42.309 with some of the worst from people and they continue 00:54:42.309 --> 00:54:45.010 to do this every day even if they're frustrated 00:54:45.010 --> 00:54:47.610 and tired of that they still get up every day 00:54:47.610 --> 00:54:51.630 and they do the job um and i just think that 00:54:51.630 --> 00:54:55.170 it's unfortunate um that A lot of people in society 00:54:55.170 --> 00:55:00.190 really just don't get how much people sacrifice 00:55:00.190 --> 00:55:03.130 doing this type of work as a first responder 00:55:03.130 --> 00:55:08.610 every day. How much of their own mental, emotional, 00:55:09.190 --> 00:55:15.269 physiological sacrifices that they make to do 00:55:15.269 --> 00:55:17.750 this job and how it catches up and how it really 00:55:17.750 --> 00:55:19.809 just tears people's family. I mean, they just 00:55:19.809 --> 00:55:23.239 continue to do it. And I don't think people realize 00:55:23.239 --> 00:55:26.539 it until they actually do it, right? Until they're 00:55:26.539 --> 00:55:28.900 in those shoes that they actually understand 00:55:28.900 --> 00:55:33.000 how much this first responder job takes a toll 00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:35.980 on people. Absolutely. What's been interesting 00:55:35.980 --> 00:55:38.760 trying to unpack the recruitment crisis from 00:55:38.760 --> 00:55:41.059 the fire side is as you're probably familiar 00:55:41.059 --> 00:55:42.519 with, I don't know if this is the case in Chicago, 00:55:42.719 --> 00:55:45.940 but most of the country, they work 56 hour work 00:55:45.940 --> 00:55:47.760 weeks. And now you add this recruitment crisis 00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:49.599 that a lot of the firefighters are working 80 00:55:49.599 --> 00:55:52.469 hour weeks. And obviously, as you can imagine, 00:55:52.570 --> 00:55:54.690 I'm sure we'll dive into sleep deprivation. You 00:55:54.690 --> 00:55:56.550 know, there's so many elements of that that are 00:55:56.550 --> 00:55:58.630 so detrimental to their own health, to their 00:55:58.630 --> 00:56:01.409 mental health, to their relationships. And what 00:56:01.409 --> 00:56:04.150 we're seeing is this Gen Z, this young generation 00:56:04.150 --> 00:56:07.309 are actually going to the trades because as you 00:56:07.309 --> 00:56:09.309 said, everyone's got that device. They have this 00:56:09.309 --> 00:56:11.769 information in front of them. So even college, 00:56:11.829 --> 00:56:13.570 they're looking at that going, well, it's $50 00:56:13.570 --> 00:56:15.869 ,000 worth of debt and a piece of paper that 00:56:15.869 --> 00:56:18.170 doesn't guarantee me a job. That doesn't sound 00:56:18.170 --> 00:56:19.849 very good. I think I'm going to go be a welder. 00:56:20.110 --> 00:56:22.489 I can do a year's training and then I make, you 00:56:22.489 --> 00:56:25.130 know, six figures or whatever it is. So we have 00:56:25.130 --> 00:56:28.269 a workforce that wants to do what we do, but 00:56:28.269 --> 00:56:31.010 they value their mental health. They value their 00:56:31.010 --> 00:56:32.769 physical health. They value their relationships. 00:56:33.150 --> 00:56:35.730 So whether it's my profession and this is starting 00:56:35.730 --> 00:56:37.730 to happen in Florida and some other places now 00:56:37.730 --> 00:56:40.269 going to a healthier work week, which is attracting 00:56:40.269 --> 00:56:42.949 people back into the profession, which is filling 00:56:42.949 --> 00:56:45.349 those vacancies. And now they're fully staffed 00:56:45.349 --> 00:56:48.070 with a healthier work week. These young people 00:56:48.070 --> 00:56:50.750 are going. That actually looks good. But if we 00:56:50.750 --> 00:56:52.849 don't fix it, like many agencies and we just 00:56:52.849 --> 00:56:54.789 bury our head in the sand or we don't support 00:56:54.789 --> 00:56:57.349 our police officers when they're doing, as you 00:56:57.349 --> 00:57:00.070 said, the right thing and it's just being politicized, 00:57:00.110 --> 00:57:02.590 then we're driving these young recruits away 00:57:02.590 --> 00:57:05.010 from the profession. And, you know, we're at 00:57:05.010 --> 00:57:07.530 a point now where you either fix the things that 00:57:07.530 --> 00:57:09.469 are broken or you don't have a police department 00:57:09.469 --> 00:57:13.389 anymore. So I, being an incurable yet angry optimist, 00:57:13.409 --> 00:57:15.389 think this is the perfect time to make change. 00:57:16.139 --> 00:57:17.780 But I think that the public need to understand 00:57:17.780 --> 00:57:21.099 that if we don't support our police officers, 00:57:21.179 --> 00:57:24.480 especially, and we don't kind of push back against 00:57:24.480 --> 00:57:27.639 this politicking, then they're going to be unprotected. 00:57:27.699 --> 00:57:30.260 And imagine calling 911 and you just get a dial 00:57:30.260 --> 00:57:32.699 tone because there is no police department anymore. 00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:39.099 Yeah, I've thought of this many a times. You 00:57:39.099 --> 00:57:42.380 know, what I've learned is, and this is with 00:57:42.380 --> 00:57:45.679 working with the public and everything, people 00:57:45.679 --> 00:57:47.860 can sit here and have all kinds of opinions all 00:57:47.860 --> 00:57:52.519 day, every day. I mean, really, they do. Until 00:57:52.519 --> 00:57:56.440 you've actually been in a situation where you 00:57:56.440 --> 00:57:59.420 need help or you've been a victim of a crime, 00:57:59.659 --> 00:58:03.539 a victim of anything horrendous, actually, you 00:58:03.539 --> 00:58:07.670 don't really get it. you know people can have 00:58:07.670 --> 00:58:10.969 all their opinions on you know their political 00:58:10.969 --> 00:58:14.090 opinions their gun opinions the police opinions 00:58:14.090 --> 00:58:16.250 all of that you can have all those opinions that's 00:58:16.250 --> 00:58:20.610 fine we welcome them what i what i tend to see 00:58:20.610 --> 00:58:24.869 though is how people's opinions will change drastically 00:58:24.869 --> 00:58:28.969 from negative to a uh maybe i should kind of 00:58:28.969 --> 00:58:34.469 re -evaluate um when the same individuals and 00:58:34.469 --> 00:58:36.489 the same issues that you're complaining about 00:58:36.489 --> 00:58:42.530 work in your favor. Meaning, you know, you can 00:58:42.530 --> 00:58:46.150 dislike the police or any first responder or 00:58:46.150 --> 00:58:49.429 have views of us and saying that, you know, I 00:58:49.429 --> 00:58:51.210 mean, I've been called everything in the book 00:58:51.210 --> 00:58:55.710 and so have many of my fellow officers, murderers, 00:58:55.710 --> 00:59:01.820 all of that. You name it. We're abusive. etc 00:59:01.820 --> 00:59:06.380 when the majority of us have never violated people's 00:59:06.380 --> 00:59:10.159 rights let alone been brutal and horrible individuals 00:59:10.159 --> 00:59:13.500 a day in our career right there are bad apples 00:59:13.500 --> 00:59:16.559 in every occupation let's be clear about that 00:59:16.559 --> 00:59:18.940 think about it any occupation you can think of 00:59:18.940 --> 00:59:21.480 there are some bad apples and that's just what 00:59:21.480 --> 00:59:23.679 it is unfortunately right now the climate is 00:59:23.679 --> 00:59:26.860 you know majority of the police just don't really 00:59:26.860 --> 00:59:31.519 fit that positive mold right and so However, 00:59:31.619 --> 00:59:34.539 you may feel whatever you think about, you know, 00:59:34.559 --> 00:59:36.659 whether you wanted to fund the police, abolish 00:59:36.659 --> 00:59:39.320 the police, whatever you want to do. I will tell 00:59:39.320 --> 00:59:44.539 you that, you know, when things happen and you 00:59:44.539 --> 00:59:48.000 really need us to be the ones running towards 00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:50.440 those bullets, like at those school shootings 00:59:50.440 --> 00:59:54.300 or any kind of like mass critical incident, you 00:59:54.300 --> 00:59:55.980 know, you're at a concert and all of a sudden 00:59:55.980 --> 00:59:58.820 someone, you know. attacks whatever it could 00:59:58.820 --> 01:00:01.659 be attacking a group with knives or shooting 01:00:01.659 --> 01:00:05.500 or whatever um it's pretty interesting how those 01:00:05.500 --> 01:00:09.739 those opinions and and all of that really changes 01:00:09.739 --> 01:00:12.519 people start to see and understand like wow you 01:00:12.519 --> 01:00:15.820 know what i really never took into account um 01:00:15.820 --> 01:00:19.800 what it's like to have to when it's really happening 01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:22.360 and it's it's really going down with a critical 01:00:22.360 --> 01:00:26.190 incident how no matter how scared you are because 01:00:26.190 --> 01:00:28.190 again we're human beings and if someone says 01:00:28.190 --> 01:00:30.230 they're any cop says they're they're not scared 01:00:30.230 --> 01:00:34.949 they're lying we we are scared we just fight 01:00:34.949 --> 01:00:37.510 or flight right kicks in and we have to act and 01:00:37.510 --> 01:00:40.949 we're trained to even though it's scary to go 01:00:40.949 --> 01:00:44.429 proceed and handle the situation you know and 01:00:44.429 --> 01:00:46.610 we have families at home too that we're thinking 01:00:46.610 --> 01:00:50.179 about um And we do that. And people don't realize 01:00:50.179 --> 01:00:53.260 that any of this until they're in the situation 01:00:53.260 --> 01:00:56.340 where like, oh, my gosh, my life flashed before 01:00:56.340 --> 01:00:59.760 my eyes or I was a victim of something or this 01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:04.420 was such a scary situation. And, you know, until 01:01:04.420 --> 01:01:08.659 we saw how these individuals stepped in and saved 01:01:08.659 --> 01:01:11.780 us or brought us to safety or they protected 01:01:11.780 --> 01:01:16.019 us, did we not realize up until then that, wow, 01:01:16.139 --> 01:01:19.119 there's a lot more that goes into it. So that's 01:01:19.119 --> 01:01:21.039 one of the most interesting things that I have 01:01:21.039 --> 01:01:23.539 learned throughout my years and I still see. 01:01:23.659 --> 01:01:25.179 And sometimes, you know, I'm not going to sit 01:01:25.179 --> 01:01:27.199 here and argue with people. They can have their 01:01:27.199 --> 01:01:30.199 opinions. I'm not offended if people, quite frankly, 01:01:30.360 --> 01:01:32.800 say they dislike the police. And I'm like, hey, 01:01:32.820 --> 01:01:35.099 you know, I understand there might be some reason. 01:01:35.139 --> 01:01:38.199 There usually is some reason as to why you feel 01:01:38.199 --> 01:01:42.519 that way or any other first responder. But what 01:01:42.519 --> 01:01:44.940 I do try to, you know, emphasize is, you know. 01:01:45.550 --> 01:01:48.869 Don't be so quick to throw such opinions on what 01:01:48.869 --> 01:01:51.610 you may have seen on a three second clip that 01:01:51.610 --> 01:01:53.469 people are putting up or whatever. You don't 01:01:53.469 --> 01:01:55.150 know the whole story and you actually haven't 01:01:55.150 --> 01:01:57.949 lived it. And, you know, because if you find 01:01:57.949 --> 01:02:01.889 yourself there one day, you might you might reevaluate 01:02:01.889 --> 01:02:04.269 and be like, you know what? I didn't consider 01:02:04.269 --> 01:02:07.349 like one, two, three, four, five, six, seven 01:02:07.349 --> 01:02:11.369 factors that now maybe changes my perspective. 01:02:13.099 --> 01:02:15.780 As you were doing this kind of analysis, this 01:02:15.780 --> 01:02:21.420 autopsy of all these suicides, what impact did 01:02:21.420 --> 01:02:23.980 organizational betrayal have? Because this is 01:02:23.980 --> 01:02:26.000 something that seems to come up over and over 01:02:26.000 --> 01:02:29.000 again and again. There's no one factor. But when 01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:31.800 you think about it tribally, we put on a uniform. 01:02:31.860 --> 01:02:33.780 We have our department's patch on our shoulder. 01:02:33.840 --> 01:02:36.780 That's our tribe. We will literally die for the 01:02:36.780 --> 01:02:38.579 people that we're serving or the person to the 01:02:38.579 --> 01:02:42.059 left or the right of us in that situation. So 01:02:42.059 --> 01:02:44.039 that's such an incredible bond. And then when 01:02:44.039 --> 01:02:47.260 an agency turns their back on an individual in 01:02:47.260 --> 01:02:50.460 whatever capacity it is, that can be extremely 01:02:50.460 --> 01:02:53.119 detrimental emotionally from what I've been told 01:02:53.119 --> 01:02:55.659 and what I've seen personally. What is your kind 01:02:55.659 --> 01:03:01.099 of perspective on that element? So in all of 01:03:01.099 --> 01:03:04.539 the cases, actually, that I've conducted the 01:03:04.539 --> 01:03:08.030 psychological suicide autopsies, There are various 01:03:08.030 --> 01:03:11.210 factors that really contribute to the individual 01:03:11.210 --> 01:03:15.250 getting to this point. As I like to call them, 01:03:15.269 --> 01:03:18.949 interdepartmental issues. It could be betrayal. 01:03:19.329 --> 01:03:21.230 It could be whatever. It's a variety of different 01:03:21.230 --> 01:03:24.309 things within the agency. Those are definitely 01:03:24.309 --> 01:03:27.590 factors that contribute. It's not the only sole 01:03:27.590 --> 01:03:31.190 factor, but it could be definitely one of the 01:03:31.190 --> 01:03:35.219 contributing. And I have found that. I mean, 01:03:35.219 --> 01:03:39.340 it depends really what every case is. It's just 01:03:39.340 --> 01:03:42.280 case by case. It's so different. It varies. Right. 01:03:42.380 --> 01:03:49.480 I can have more possible weight in the area of 01:03:49.480 --> 01:03:52.599 interpersonal relationship issues. Right. Where 01:03:52.599 --> 01:03:55.019 those that was much heavier, the issues there 01:03:55.019 --> 01:03:58.860 and then maybe possibly mental health and sleep 01:03:58.860 --> 01:04:02.889 deprivation. having been more of the bigger, 01:04:02.909 --> 01:04:05.230 heavier issues, right, that really contributed 01:04:05.230 --> 01:04:10.070 versus the interdepartmental or vice versa, right? 01:04:10.190 --> 01:04:15.510 So it very much varies. But I will say that suicide 01:04:15.510 --> 01:04:22.869 or not, we are seeing a lot of impact that, you 01:04:22.869 --> 01:04:30.190 know, departmental betrayal has on. on the members. 01:04:30.929 --> 01:04:34.530 It's heavy, absolutely. It's something that people 01:04:34.530 --> 01:04:36.690 think about and worry about every day. I mean, 01:04:36.710 --> 01:04:39.909 it really has an impact on the job that you're 01:04:39.909 --> 01:04:43.329 going to do day to day, right? People don't want 01:04:43.329 --> 01:04:48.710 to be crucified for doing, if in fact they are 01:04:48.710 --> 01:04:51.010 doing exactly what they were trained to do and 01:04:51.010 --> 01:04:53.550 they're following protocol, but because of opinions 01:04:53.550 --> 01:04:58.400 or I don't know, influences outside of the agency 01:04:58.400 --> 01:05:01.519 and outside of policy. Yeah, absolutely. That 01:05:01.519 --> 01:05:06.139 in any psychological normal mindset, like people 01:05:06.139 --> 01:05:08.900 would hesitate and be like, wow, I don't want 01:05:08.900 --> 01:05:11.440 to be the next, you know, storyline. I don't 01:05:11.440 --> 01:05:16.019 want to be the next frontline, you know, headliner. 01:05:16.440 --> 01:05:22.139 So there's definitely impact from that. You touched 01:05:22.139 --> 01:05:24.860 on sleep deprivation, which is a big, big topic 01:05:24.860 --> 01:05:26.599 that I talk about a lot. And again, going back 01:05:26.599 --> 01:05:30.159 to the work weeks that we work 56, 80, you know, 01:05:30.159 --> 01:05:32.079 and then you have all these people on the show 01:05:32.079 --> 01:05:34.019 from the sleep medicine world, from the psychology, 01:05:34.139 --> 01:05:36.440 psychiatry world. And we hear about the direct 01:05:36.440 --> 01:05:39.420 correlation between sleep deprivation and, you 01:05:39.420 --> 01:05:41.619 know, suicide ideation, addiction, all these 01:05:41.619 --> 01:05:44.840 other areas. As you're doing all these forensic 01:05:44.840 --> 01:05:48.539 analyses, what was the impact of sleep deprivation 01:05:48.539 --> 01:05:52.099 in these cases? Oh my gosh, it's one of the highest, 01:05:52.360 --> 01:05:57.179 one of the higher risk factors up there. You 01:05:57.179 --> 01:06:00.320 know, I have some like pretty acute risk factors, 01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:02.920 you know, at the top of the list. And then some 01:06:02.920 --> 01:06:05.360 that are, you know, little, there's still risks, 01:06:05.599 --> 01:06:07.760 but you know, you have your top ones, right? 01:06:07.940 --> 01:06:10.780 And sleep deprivation definitely falls in there. 01:06:10.960 --> 01:06:15.300 It's interesting to me how with agencies, pretty 01:06:15.300 --> 01:06:19.039 much any agency across the country, if we engage 01:06:19.039 --> 01:06:24.900 in any kind of alcoholic um uh beverage right 01:06:24.900 --> 01:06:29.559 that we may drink um on the job if we were to 01:06:29.559 --> 01:06:31.179 do that this is just a hypothetical situation 01:06:31.179 --> 01:06:36.900 if i engaged in drinking while i'm on duty absolutely 01:06:36.900 --> 01:06:39.420 my judgment it'd be fair to say that that's going 01:06:39.420 --> 01:06:42.320 to impair my judgment um so it's absolutely not 01:06:42.320 --> 01:06:46.300 allowed um and we would be in trouble if caught 01:06:46.300 --> 01:06:52.360 right under any kind while we're impaired. And 01:06:52.360 --> 01:06:56.260 so when we look at studies, when it comes to 01:06:56.260 --> 01:06:59.840 sleep, right, we have found that in some cases, 01:06:59.880 --> 01:07:03.360 if you're so sleep deprived, it's almost equivalent 01:07:03.360 --> 01:07:07.139 to an individual who has been, who is intoxicated, 01:07:07.179 --> 01:07:10.539 right, under the influence and has that impaired 01:07:10.539 --> 01:07:14.860 judgment. So I'm constantly wondering, how is 01:07:14.860 --> 01:07:20.059 it that If we're impaired, right, if our judgment 01:07:20.059 --> 01:07:23.659 is so impaired under the influence of alcoholic 01:07:23.659 --> 01:07:27.079 beverages, but it also can be just as impaired 01:07:27.079 --> 01:07:30.079 from sleep deprivation, how are we not putting 01:07:30.079 --> 01:07:34.519 more emphasis on that, on sleep deprivation? 01:07:34.639 --> 01:07:36.179 How are we not looking at it and saying, you 01:07:36.179 --> 01:07:38.539 know what, maybe this is like, yeah, this isn't 01:07:38.539 --> 01:07:40.539 a good thing. Maybe we need to focus more on 01:07:40.539 --> 01:07:44.659 trying to. you know push and give the information 01:07:44.659 --> 01:07:47.719 right psycho educate everyone on what the true 01:07:47.719 --> 01:07:51.119 real effects of sleep deprivation is and what 01:07:51.119 --> 01:07:53.760 that looks like like really just kind of give 01:07:53.760 --> 01:07:57.019 that information and and like spell it out like 01:07:57.019 --> 01:08:00.920 draw it out however we need to really just emphasize 01:08:00.920 --> 01:08:02.980 that and we don't we're just kind of like yeah 01:08:02.980 --> 01:08:06.980 whatever i mean you know and how age that's another 01:08:06.980 --> 01:08:11.760 thing that i really um focus on is What we went 01:08:11.760 --> 01:08:13.679 through when we were sleep deprived when we were 01:08:13.679 --> 01:08:17.079 in our 20s versus sleep deprivation in your 40s 01:08:17.079 --> 01:08:19.979 and 50s, that is a whole nother ballgame. Like 01:08:19.979 --> 01:08:22.899 you just cannot function the way you used to. 01:08:23.159 --> 01:08:27.819 Age really plays a big role. And, you know, we're 01:08:27.819 --> 01:08:30.579 very stuck. Sometimes we're a stubborn breed 01:08:30.579 --> 01:08:33.420 and we're stuck in our ways. And it's very hard 01:08:33.420 --> 01:08:35.819 for human beings to adapt to change and understand 01:08:35.819 --> 01:08:38.359 that like. The body you had when you were in 01:08:38.359 --> 01:08:40.460 your 20s versus the body that you have now in 01:08:40.460 --> 01:08:44.220 your 40s and 50s. And listen, it's different. 01:08:44.359 --> 01:08:47.840 It really is. And the impacts that you will have 01:08:47.840 --> 01:08:51.359 from sleep deprivation in those different age 01:08:51.359 --> 01:08:55.779 ranges is significant. And so, you know, if I 01:08:55.779 --> 01:08:58.180 was able to handle five hours or four hours of 01:08:58.180 --> 01:09:00.729 sleep. In my 20s, you know, I'm out all night 01:09:00.729 --> 01:09:02.710 and then I go straight to work. You know, that's 01:09:02.710 --> 01:09:04.909 not the same thing when you're older or you have 01:09:04.909 --> 01:09:08.010 more responsibilities, right? You have families 01:09:08.010 --> 01:09:10.029 to take care of or other dependents that you 01:09:10.029 --> 01:09:13.250 have. All these things really play a role. And 01:09:13.250 --> 01:09:16.350 so I think people just don't know enough of it 01:09:16.350 --> 01:09:18.909 to really truly understand it. And they just 01:09:18.909 --> 01:09:22.449 kind of they go on autopilot. And until they're 01:09:22.449 --> 01:09:25.369 in a situation that's detrimental to their health 01:09:25.369 --> 01:09:28.979 or others. They don't realize it. They don't 01:09:28.979 --> 01:09:31.260 get it. Well, this is what's so maddening is 01:09:31.260 --> 01:09:35.520 that's been shown by one of the leading human 01:09:35.520 --> 01:09:38.300 performance organizations in America to this 01:09:38.300 --> 01:09:40.399 local department. They've got all these deaths. 01:09:40.520 --> 01:09:42.699 And again, they just will not acknowledge the 01:09:42.699 --> 01:09:45.770 sleep deprivation element. And go to this proactive 01:09:45.770 --> 01:09:48.289 measure where they get, you know, more people 01:09:48.289 --> 01:09:50.409 and then attract more people and fill these holes. 01:09:50.489 --> 01:09:52.229 And now their firefighters are working a healthy 01:09:52.229 --> 01:09:54.350 work week. Is it the only thing? No. But is it 01:09:54.350 --> 01:09:56.649 a massive herd of elephants in the room? Of course 01:09:56.649 --> 01:09:59.369 it is. And so this is what's, you know, really 01:09:59.369 --> 01:10:01.470 startling to me. And it's just there's no other 01:10:01.470 --> 01:10:04.029 way of saying this. If you have lost all those 01:10:04.029 --> 01:10:06.250 people and you've been presented the information 01:10:06.250 --> 01:10:10.409 and you're unwilling to act on that, then now 01:10:10.409 --> 01:10:12.810 we're talking about courage or cowardice in leadership 01:10:12.810 --> 01:10:15.020 at this point. Like if there's literally you 01:10:15.020 --> 01:10:17.960 buried your own people and you still refuse to 01:10:17.960 --> 01:10:21.100 change, then now this is to me where it's like, 01:10:21.119 --> 01:10:22.539 well, you need to step aside and let someone 01:10:22.539 --> 01:10:24.880 to actually lead them because it's, you know, 01:10:24.899 --> 01:10:28.060 if it happened once is one thing, but four times 01:10:28.060 --> 01:10:30.739 and you're still turning your head. I mean, come 01:10:30.739 --> 01:10:35.350 on. Sometimes I. and this is just my opinion 01:10:35.350 --> 01:10:39.289 sometimes in leadership roles in our professions 01:10:39.289 --> 01:10:42.869 fire police paramedics all of that i feel that 01:10:42.869 --> 01:10:47.630 sometimes listen we were hired to do a job and 01:10:47.630 --> 01:10:49.890 to carry out certain policy and make sure certain 01:10:49.890 --> 01:10:52.949 procedures are followed and all of that um and 01:10:52.949 --> 01:10:56.130 we do that job and we do it well and most of 01:10:56.130 --> 01:10:58.390 the people who are in leadership you know they 01:10:59.180 --> 01:11:01.159 Pretty much get to that point. They can handle 01:11:01.159 --> 01:11:03.979 that. But thinking outside the box or having 01:11:03.979 --> 01:11:08.359 additional credentials in areas like this to 01:11:08.359 --> 01:11:10.920 really, truly understand, like they just don't 01:11:10.920 --> 01:11:13.359 know. They don't get it. They don't understand 01:11:13.359 --> 01:11:15.180 that because they don't have that background. 01:11:15.380 --> 01:11:17.220 And I think that's what makes it challenging. 01:11:17.439 --> 01:11:20.880 Right. So I can sit here if someone were to present 01:11:20.880 --> 01:11:25.060 anything from a psychological. perspective I 01:11:25.060 --> 01:11:27.199 can really pretty much get it and understand 01:11:27.199 --> 01:11:29.779 it and I'm following because I have that background 01:11:29.779 --> 01:11:34.000 unfortunately some leaders they don't have anything 01:11:34.000 --> 01:11:38.079 more than the skill set to do the job that they're 01:11:38.079 --> 01:11:40.619 doing right and to be to be able to make sure 01:11:40.619 --> 01:11:45.189 policy is followed and to do the job of a police 01:11:45.189 --> 01:11:48.489 officer of a firefighter and anything beyond 01:11:48.489 --> 01:11:50.949 that they're really not skilled at it they don't 01:11:50.949 --> 01:11:53.789 know and even when people who are the actual 01:11:53.789 --> 01:11:57.130 experts in that in those areas present it to 01:11:57.130 --> 01:11:59.710 them again they still just it's like they don't 01:11:59.710 --> 01:12:02.050 really get it or they don't want to get it because 01:12:02.050 --> 01:12:04.310 they're just so focused on something else and 01:12:04.310 --> 01:12:07.069 that's unfortunate like nowadays in leadership 01:12:07.069 --> 01:12:10.130 you have to kind of be i think well -rounded 01:12:10.130 --> 01:12:13.880 in various aspects right not just the duties 01:12:13.880 --> 01:12:17.119 of your job. Like there are so many other issues 01:12:17.119 --> 01:12:19.840 that are happening. So you kind of have to maybe 01:12:19.840 --> 01:12:23.079 have a little more understanding about how human 01:12:23.079 --> 01:12:26.819 beings function and trauma and how that will 01:12:26.819 --> 01:12:30.000 impact them. And so how sleep will like deprivation 01:12:30.000 --> 01:12:32.699 will impact them and all of those things. Like 01:12:32.699 --> 01:12:35.260 you have to, if you don't have the background 01:12:35.260 --> 01:12:38.699 and knowledge on it, you have to maybe kind of. 01:12:39.600 --> 01:12:43.039 take the time to listen to other experts that 01:12:43.039 --> 01:12:46.699 are well -rounded in that area to kind of school 01:12:46.699 --> 01:12:50.060 you a little bit, if you will, so that helps 01:12:50.060 --> 01:12:53.939 with putting things in place that need to be 01:12:53.939 --> 01:12:56.340 put in place. That's kind of what I think. No, 01:12:56.420 --> 01:12:57.859 I agree completely. I think it comes down to 01:12:57.859 --> 01:13:00.329 humility. You have to be humble. You have to 01:13:00.329 --> 01:13:03.010 be like, I don't know about this. I've done this 01:13:03.010 --> 01:13:04.810 for eight and a half years, and I'm continually 01:13:04.810 --> 01:13:07.409 learning from people like you. I'm a perpetual 01:13:07.409 --> 01:13:10.250 student. But you start to see these actors, and 01:13:10.250 --> 01:13:12.409 this is just it. These other people, this is 01:13:12.409 --> 01:13:14.470 what they do for a living. Mental health, strength 01:13:14.470 --> 01:13:16.310 and conditioning, back injuries, whatever it 01:13:16.310 --> 01:13:19.390 is, this is their area of expertise. You were 01:13:19.390 --> 01:13:21.710 a good firefighter or a paramedic or both, and 01:13:21.710 --> 01:13:24.130 then you took some officer classes. But that 01:13:24.130 --> 01:13:26.470 doesn't make you well -rounded, like you said. 01:13:27.319 --> 01:13:30.760 all things human. So when there's clearly glaringly 01:13:30.760 --> 01:13:33.279 an issue and you're losing people by droves, 01:13:33.300 --> 01:13:36.460 you know, in the ground or out your back door, 01:13:36.500 --> 01:13:38.899 as far as recruitment and retention, you've got 01:13:38.899 --> 01:13:41.479 to have the humility to go. I don't know what 01:13:41.479 --> 01:13:44.319 I'm doing. Let me find who does. And let me be 01:13:44.319 --> 01:13:47.380 humble enough to actually listen rather than 01:13:47.380 --> 01:13:49.840 check a box, close the book and then do absolutely 01:13:49.840 --> 01:13:53.899 nothing. Let me find what. First, let me get 01:13:53.899 --> 01:13:56.539 to the bottom of the problem, try to reevaluate, 01:13:56.659 --> 01:13:59.560 find what works, like find something else instead 01:13:59.560 --> 01:14:02.659 of continuing the same cycle. It's very difficult 01:14:02.659 --> 01:14:06.380 in this type of work in these professions. We're 01:14:06.380 --> 01:14:11.500 stubborn, right? We don't like change. We tend 01:14:11.500 --> 01:14:13.520 to sometimes what I have found, too, is that 01:14:13.520 --> 01:14:16.010 we do things. Right. And sometimes you're like, 01:14:16.050 --> 01:14:17.770 why the hell are we doing it this way? This doesn't 01:14:17.770 --> 01:14:19.750 make sense. You're like, this is how we've always 01:14:19.750 --> 01:14:22.090 done it. And it's like, oh, my God, it's maddening. 01:14:22.109 --> 01:14:24.810 This doesn't like just because this is how we've 01:14:24.810 --> 01:14:27.050 always done it doesn't mean we have to keep going 01:14:27.050 --> 01:14:29.750 this way. Like at some point, if we're actually 01:14:29.750 --> 01:14:31.850 being presented with the fact that like this 01:14:31.850 --> 01:14:34.090 isn't really working anymore or look at the results, 01:14:34.189 --> 01:14:37.229 like it's just it's not making sense. Then somebody 01:14:37.229 --> 01:14:39.829 has to stand up and be like, hey, we might have 01:14:39.829 --> 01:14:41.890 to try something a little different, like just 01:14:41.890 --> 01:14:45.060 adjust at the very least a little bit. And I 01:14:45.060 --> 01:14:47.960 think that that's something that we need to start 01:14:47.960 --> 01:14:51.899 seeing. And one of the things that drives me 01:14:51.899 --> 01:14:59.720 just mad is when people cannot admit that they 01:14:59.720 --> 01:15:03.739 don't know something. Like, understand it doesn't 01:15:03.739 --> 01:15:06.220 make you an idiot. It doesn't make you less of 01:15:06.220 --> 01:15:09.380 a person. It's okay because here's a little secret. 01:15:09.479 --> 01:15:14.239 Not everyone knows everything. I have yet to 01:15:14.239 --> 01:15:16.500 meet the person who knows absolutely everything 01:15:16.500 --> 01:15:20.060 about anything in this world and in life. There's 01:15:20.060 --> 01:15:22.500 always room for knowledge. There's always room 01:15:22.500 --> 01:15:25.439 for improvement. We could be 90 years old, and 01:15:25.439 --> 01:15:28.460 I guarantee you, I've talked to some 99 -year 01:15:28.460 --> 01:15:32.159 -old people. They can still learn something new 01:15:32.159 --> 01:15:36.260 in life, even at that age. So allow yourself, 01:15:36.840 --> 01:15:41.550 cut yourself some slack, and it's okay. To admit 01:15:41.550 --> 01:15:44.189 that you don't know something, go find the answer 01:15:44.189 --> 01:15:46.829 or find someone who knows it. You know, don't 01:15:46.829 --> 01:15:49.449 try to be a know -it -all. You know, to sit there 01:15:49.449 --> 01:15:52.369 and focus on your pride and your ego because, 01:15:52.529 --> 01:15:54.210 you know what I mean, that just doesn't get anyone 01:15:54.210 --> 01:15:56.609 anywhere, especially in these professions. So 01:15:56.609 --> 01:16:01.890 I think it's more of a humble and stronger individual 01:16:01.890 --> 01:16:04.130 who will say, you know what, I'm not quite sure. 01:16:04.590 --> 01:16:07.069 You know, this is beyond my scope because there 01:16:07.069 --> 01:16:09.569 are going to be many things in life that are 01:16:09.569 --> 01:16:12.979 beyond. your scope don't try to answer up for 01:16:12.979 --> 01:16:15.119 it because you just want to sound like you know 01:16:15.119 --> 01:16:17.899 you actually sound like an idiot when it's clear 01:16:17.899 --> 01:16:20.819 that you have no knowledge no expertise in a 01:16:20.819 --> 01:16:23.859 particular area but you want to just keep you 01:16:23.859 --> 01:16:26.399 know trying to make decisions or keep talking 01:16:26.399 --> 01:16:29.500 on something that you have no knowledge on um 01:16:29.500 --> 01:16:31.880 i think once people start to understand that 01:16:31.880 --> 01:16:33.859 like hey it's okay that i don't know anything 01:16:33.859 --> 01:16:35.939 let me figure it out let me get someone who does 01:16:35.939 --> 01:16:41.170 um i think that's more noble yeah I can say from 01:16:41.170 --> 01:16:43.289 experience, I've watched it with this progressive 01:16:43.289 --> 01:16:46.510 work week alone. Here's the secret sauce. The 01:16:46.510 --> 01:16:48.909 people that have figured out a better way of 01:16:48.909 --> 01:16:51.010 doing things, whether it's creating a wellness 01:16:51.010 --> 01:16:53.409 program, whether it's a in -house mental health 01:16:53.409 --> 01:16:56.710 program, whether it's this work week, those departments 01:16:56.710 --> 01:17:00.039 want to help the rest of the nation. They want 01:17:00.039 --> 01:17:01.840 to, you know, the rising tide lifts all ships. 01:17:01.899 --> 01:17:05.359 Those departments bend over backwards to disseminate, 01:17:05.359 --> 01:17:07.439 you know, information to help people, you know, 01:17:07.439 --> 01:17:08.939 give them a blueprint. Well, this worked here. 01:17:09.039 --> 01:17:11.500 We're not exactly the same size as you, but here's 01:17:11.500 --> 01:17:13.140 the principles. Now you should be able to apply 01:17:13.140 --> 01:17:16.840 it to your department. So it's humility. But 01:17:16.840 --> 01:17:19.079 again, because we're so siloed as a profession 01:17:19.079 --> 01:17:21.920 or professions and every city and county is kind 01:17:21.920 --> 01:17:24.000 of on their own and some work well together and 01:17:24.000 --> 01:17:27.239 some hate each other, whatever it is. In the 01:17:27.239 --> 01:17:29.199 nation, there's people doing almost everything 01:17:29.199 --> 01:17:32.340 that we struggle with really well. So we need 01:17:32.340 --> 01:17:33.920 to have the humility to find out, okay, well, 01:17:33.960 --> 01:17:36.100 who's doing strength and conditioning well? Who's 01:17:36.100 --> 01:17:38.420 doing injury prevention well? Who's doing mental 01:17:38.420 --> 01:17:40.859 health well? Who's doing the work week well? 01:17:40.939 --> 01:17:42.779 Okay, well, then how did you do that? What were 01:17:42.779 --> 01:17:44.439 the challenges? What would be in the results? 01:17:44.880 --> 01:17:46.500 And there's people, I mean, I've got people on 01:17:46.500 --> 01:17:48.560 this podcast for free. You just got to go online 01:17:48.560 --> 01:17:51.079 and hit play and you can hear all these departments 01:17:51.079 --> 01:17:53.000 and all these great leaders that have done this. 01:17:53.079 --> 01:17:55.979 So this is the thing. It's just... Just being 01:17:55.979 --> 01:17:58.680 humble enough to say, like you said, I don't 01:17:58.680 --> 01:18:00.659 know it all. I don't know what I'm doing in this 01:18:00.659 --> 01:18:03.819 particular area. Can someone help me? And then 01:18:03.819 --> 01:18:05.640 someone over in the Northeast or the Southwest 01:18:05.640 --> 01:18:07.760 or wherever it is will be like, hey, we figured 01:18:07.760 --> 01:18:10.279 that out in Dallas and New York and wherever. 01:18:10.739 --> 01:18:13.100 You want to try this? I'll show you what we did. 01:18:13.420 --> 01:18:15.840 So this is the beautiful thing. This is the brotherhood 01:18:15.840 --> 01:18:19.060 and sisterhood is sharing this information. And 01:18:19.060 --> 01:18:21.899 I wish I wish that our national unions, I don't 01:18:21.899 --> 01:18:23.739 know how it is in law enforcement, but in fire. 01:18:24.409 --> 01:18:26.590 There isn't this communication network where 01:18:26.590 --> 01:18:28.850 everyone's talking to each other. That's what 01:18:28.850 --> 01:18:31.130 I was envisioning when I joined the union, you 01:18:31.130 --> 01:18:34.569 know, 20 years ago. But so if we can't do that, 01:18:34.590 --> 01:18:36.689 well, then and now we've got the internet, we've 01:18:36.689 --> 01:18:38.329 got the virtual world, we've got social media. 01:18:38.369 --> 01:18:41.050 So now we can knowledge share that way. But yeah, 01:18:41.109 --> 01:18:43.989 I mean, the solutions are out there. We're having 01:18:43.989 --> 01:18:46.729 a conversation with solutions right now. So just 01:18:46.729 --> 01:18:49.229 having the humility to go, well, let me listen 01:18:49.229 --> 01:18:51.630 to Liz. She sounds like she knows what she talks 01:18:51.630 --> 01:18:57.460 about. Yeah, I think we're in such a great space 01:18:57.460 --> 01:19:01.460 in this world where information can travel so 01:19:01.460 --> 01:19:05.500 quickly and you can have so much actual great 01:19:05.500 --> 01:19:10.159 information at your hands so quickly. And I think, 01:19:10.180 --> 01:19:12.680 yeah, if there are definitely a lot of agencies 01:19:12.680 --> 01:19:16.279 out there that are doing better, they're getting 01:19:16.279 --> 01:19:18.399 it right. There are some that are kind of stuck 01:19:18.399 --> 01:19:21.020 maybe in ways where it's like, you know, we could 01:19:21.020 --> 01:19:24.840 improve. Um, but yeah, there's always definitely, 01:19:25.039 --> 01:19:29.460 um, the opportunity to make, to get to the bottom 01:19:29.460 --> 01:19:31.760 of what your issues are and try to improve them. 01:19:31.880 --> 01:19:35.060 I mean, no one has the answers where, you know, 01:19:35.060 --> 01:19:37.420 it's like, this is the exact way to like be successful 01:19:37.420 --> 01:19:39.880 and it's all going to work out. No, but we can 01:19:39.880 --> 01:19:43.039 definitely try, especially when, you know, we 01:19:43.039 --> 01:19:45.500 see that what we're doing isn't working and it's 01:19:45.500 --> 01:19:49.859 just causing more harm than it is any good. Well, 01:19:49.920 --> 01:19:54.039 going back to the autopsies of the suicides, 01:19:54.579 --> 01:19:59.399 one of the areas that this is just my own hypothesis, 01:19:59.539 --> 01:20:03.720 but it makes a lot of sense. When you are a healthy 01:20:03.720 --> 01:20:06.479 human being, when your mind is programmed the 01:20:06.479 --> 01:20:09.520 way it's supposed to be. And you, for example, 01:20:09.600 --> 01:20:11.960 we went to the top of a 20 story high rise and 01:20:11.960 --> 01:20:13.619 we stood near the edge. There'd be that invisible 01:20:13.619 --> 01:20:15.720 hand pushing you back going, what the hell are 01:20:15.720 --> 01:20:17.560 you doing? Get back. You know, we're supposed 01:20:17.560 --> 01:20:19.939 to thrive. We're supposed to procreate. We're 01:20:19.939 --> 01:20:21.779 supposed to then protect our offspring. It's 01:20:21.779 --> 01:20:26.520 in our DNA. When I think about not only the skewed 01:20:26.520 --> 01:20:29.319 nature that you get as far as all these elements 01:20:29.319 --> 01:20:31.300 that we've talked about, sleep deprivation and 01:20:31.300 --> 01:20:33.380 unaddressed trauma and all the other factors 01:20:33.380 --> 01:20:35.319 that I'm sure we'll get to some other ones in 01:20:35.319 --> 01:20:38.899 a minute. Now this brain becomes miswired. And 01:20:38.899 --> 01:20:40.600 now what I've heard from a lot of people on the 01:20:40.600 --> 01:20:43.579 show is there's this feeling of burdensome. Like, 01:20:43.619 --> 01:20:45.539 well, if I'm the reason for my family's pain 01:20:45.539 --> 01:20:48.119 and if I just take myself out, then they'll be 01:20:48.119 --> 01:20:51.279 happy. But I think there's still that hand. And 01:20:51.279 --> 01:20:54.579 what's so sad is it would appear in a lot of 01:20:54.579 --> 01:20:58.079 these suicide completions, alcohol is involved. 01:20:58.819 --> 01:21:01.739 And if I think about being in my late teens, 01:21:01.819 --> 01:21:03.899 early twenties and going to the clubs and drinking 01:21:03.899 --> 01:21:07.020 and maybe ending. up going home with someone 01:21:07.020 --> 01:21:10.020 and the next morning going, oh, I actually don't 01:21:10.020 --> 01:21:12.600 think that person is very attractive. We know 01:21:12.600 --> 01:21:15.220 alcohol can skew your perspective and it can 01:21:15.220 --> 01:21:18.859 dull some of these senses. And it breaks my heart 01:21:18.859 --> 01:21:20.500 because I wonder if some of these people, if 01:21:20.500 --> 01:21:22.479 they were stone cold sober, would they have actually 01:21:22.479 --> 01:21:25.279 gone through with it? So big old monologue before 01:21:25.279 --> 01:21:28.239 the question, with all these suicides that you 01:21:28.239 --> 01:21:31.260 did the autopsies for or you overviewed the autopsies, 01:21:31.300 --> 01:21:35.909 what was the... the magnitude of alcohol involvement 01:21:35.909 --> 01:21:38.729 in those attempts or those successes in that 01:21:38.729 --> 01:21:42.010 particular example? That's an excellent question. 01:21:42.289 --> 01:21:45.710 I'll put it to you like this. I have yet to have 01:21:45.710 --> 01:21:49.630 a suicide where alcohol was not present within 01:21:49.630 --> 01:21:54.310 the last 12 hours of the suicide completion. 01:21:56.909 --> 01:22:00.960 It's interesting because We know that alcohol 01:22:00.960 --> 01:22:05.159 and some substance drug abuse of some sort has 01:22:05.159 --> 01:22:07.699 always been an issue within this population. 01:22:07.899 --> 01:22:11.199 Right. And we know that it's a problem, but yet 01:22:11.199 --> 01:22:14.199 no one wants to address it. I think for a couple 01:22:14.199 --> 01:22:16.479 of reasons. One, it's just hard to address because 01:22:16.479 --> 01:22:19.520 it's really. kind of embedded in our culture, 01:22:19.640 --> 01:22:22.939 right? And on top of it, really no one knows 01:22:22.939 --> 01:22:25.560 what to say about it and how to talk about it, 01:22:25.600 --> 01:22:28.279 right? So I love that you bring this up because 01:22:28.279 --> 01:22:31.000 this is one of the pieces because of this that 01:22:31.000 --> 01:22:32.920 I keep seeing in the autopsies. I was like, this 01:22:32.920 --> 01:22:35.000 is one of the pieces that really needs to be 01:22:35.000 --> 01:22:39.039 tackled in the psychoeducation that I provide. 01:22:39.880 --> 01:22:43.159 And in that, without going too much in depth 01:22:43.159 --> 01:22:47.909 about it, The issue with alcohol isn't that we 01:22:47.909 --> 01:22:51.750 are necessarily drinking, right? Because we're 01:22:51.750 --> 01:22:54.109 all grown adults and we can engage in alcohol. 01:22:54.149 --> 01:22:56.189 You can go to a, I don't know, a concert tonight 01:22:56.189 --> 01:22:58.010 if you wanted to, and you wanted to have a beer 01:22:58.010 --> 01:23:00.670 and that's fine. You can go out with your, have 01:23:00.670 --> 01:23:03.310 a dinner, have a glass of wine, whatever. The 01:23:03.310 --> 01:23:07.569 issue is why we are drinking. That's the main 01:23:07.569 --> 01:23:09.670 problem. And that's what people aren't getting 01:23:09.670 --> 01:23:12.850 to the bottom of. Um, it's why we're drinking. 01:23:12.930 --> 01:23:15.250 And that's a question everyone should be, should 01:23:15.250 --> 01:23:18.550 have an answer for. Am I drinking? Because I 01:23:18.550 --> 01:23:21.130 don't know, I'm drinking maybe tonight out of 01:23:21.130 --> 01:23:23.029 the whole week because I'm going out to dinner 01:23:23.029 --> 01:23:25.210 with my friends and I wanted to like engage in 01:23:25.210 --> 01:23:27.289 like, I don't know, two cocktails. And then I'm 01:23:27.289 --> 01:23:30.050 going out dancing after my going to a distillery 01:23:30.050 --> 01:23:33.109 to like have some kind of, um, you know, um, 01:23:33.250 --> 01:23:38.340 what is it? Not bourbon. Oh, gosh. What's the 01:23:38.340 --> 01:23:41.600 other alcohol? Anyway. Scotch, you mean? Okay. 01:23:41.659 --> 01:23:44.479 Yeah. At a distillery. And I'm doing a tasting. 01:23:44.680 --> 01:23:47.819 You know, that's totally different. When I am 01:23:47.819 --> 01:23:54.239 having a hard time psychologically with intrusive 01:23:54.239 --> 01:23:57.159 thoughts because of something that I experienced 01:23:57.159 --> 01:24:01.710 on the job, like the. horrendous criminal sexual 01:24:01.710 --> 01:24:05.310 assault of a child that i responded to on scene 01:24:05.310 --> 01:24:07.890 whether i was a paramedic a fireman or a cop 01:24:07.890 --> 01:24:11.189 or i took that call as a dispatcher and everything 01:24:11.189 --> 01:24:14.869 about that scene what i heard what i saw what 01:24:14.869 --> 01:24:18.130 i experienced is constantly coming back up to 01:24:18.130 --> 01:24:20.350 me and playing over and over again like a video 01:24:20.350 --> 01:24:25.229 that i can't shut off okay and the only way that 01:24:25.229 --> 01:24:28.829 i find i'm able to is engaging in some amount 01:24:28.829 --> 01:24:32.520 of alcohol right and it works because it does 01:24:32.520 --> 01:24:35.060 shut that off and maybe it knocks me out to sleep 01:24:35.060 --> 01:24:39.640 or not but otherwise it really does shut those 01:24:39.640 --> 01:24:45.659 intrusive thoughts out okay we do find a temporary 01:24:45.659 --> 01:24:49.020 solution for that right that does work however 01:24:49.020 --> 01:24:52.760 what we're not realizing is that alcohol is a 01:24:52.760 --> 01:24:55.659 depressant right there's that knowledge gap we're 01:24:55.659 --> 01:24:57.560 not realizing that it's making the situation 01:24:57.560 --> 01:25:00.460 worse for us in the sense that later the next 01:25:00.460 --> 01:25:03.100 day you don't even have to be hung over okay 01:25:03.100 --> 01:25:09.800 you will feel worse right um than you did while 01:25:09.800 --> 01:25:12.420 before you took the alcohol and so now you're 01:25:12.420 --> 01:25:14.619 going to want to throw more alcohol to achieve 01:25:14.619 --> 01:25:16.800 the same thing that you did right to shut that 01:25:16.800 --> 01:25:19.699 off now what we don't realize is that we're creating 01:25:19.699 --> 01:25:21.819 dependence right because i got to keep doing 01:25:21.819 --> 01:25:23.520 that in order to keep shutting those thoughts 01:25:23.520 --> 01:25:27.789 off So it's how we're using alcohol as a coping 01:25:27.789 --> 01:25:31.850 mechanism versus drinking because I don't know, 01:25:31.909 --> 01:25:34.829 it's more of like a social once in a while thing. 01:25:35.470 --> 01:25:38.250 Every day that I sit in that basement with a 01:25:38.250 --> 01:25:40.390 handle of liquor and I have to actually like 01:25:40.390 --> 01:25:43.449 up the amount of alcohol that I'm taking in, 01:25:43.569 --> 01:25:46.149 right? Because we start to build some tolerance, 01:25:46.470 --> 01:25:50.609 right? That's the issue that I'm turning to the 01:25:50.609 --> 01:25:55.069 alcohol to deal with an issue. That's our problem. 01:25:55.329 --> 01:25:58.069 That's why alcohol is a problem. It's not so 01:25:58.069 --> 01:26:00.310 much the fact that like, oh, you had a glass 01:26:00.310 --> 01:26:02.329 of wine or you had a couple of beers with your 01:26:02.329 --> 01:26:04.670 buddies, you know, yesterday at a party, whatever. 01:26:04.930 --> 01:26:07.770 No, it's the fact that we have these individuals 01:26:07.770 --> 01:26:10.810 that are turning to it to self -medicate, right, 01:26:10.909 --> 01:26:13.770 to cope with whatever it is that they're trying 01:26:13.770 --> 01:26:17.609 to deal with in that way. And it causes a bigger 01:26:17.609 --> 01:26:20.670 problem. Now, when people have been like completely 01:26:20.670 --> 01:26:23.109 to the point, especially when they have enough 01:26:23.109 --> 01:26:26.630 alcohol in them, that it's impairing them so 01:26:26.630 --> 01:26:31.250 badly that, you know, there's a weapon around 01:26:31.250 --> 01:26:35.689 and all of that. Absolutely. The likelihood for 01:26:35.689 --> 01:26:38.810 you making some kind of out of your mind, your 01:26:38.810 --> 01:26:41.069 judgments impaired, you got clouded thinking 01:26:41.069 --> 01:26:44.289 and you maybe make a decision that, you know, 01:26:44.289 --> 01:26:46.829 yeah, we question would the individual have. 01:26:47.569 --> 01:26:51.069 done it. And I'm not saying that all there was, 01:26:51.149 --> 01:26:53.210 here's what people have to understand. And it's 01:26:53.210 --> 01:26:55.649 very crucial that they understand this for the 01:26:55.649 --> 01:26:58.090 individuals that are taking their life by suicide. 01:26:58.810 --> 01:27:02.409 It's not like I have never thought of suicide 01:27:02.409 --> 01:27:05.529 or contemplated or had this thought run through 01:27:05.529 --> 01:27:08.729 my mind ever before. But tonight, because I was 01:27:08.729 --> 01:27:11.369 drunk and intoxicated, it happened. It doesn't 01:27:11.369 --> 01:27:15.890 work that way. The thought, the, the contemplating. 01:27:16.539 --> 01:27:20.920 of suicide has been there at some point for some 01:27:20.920 --> 01:27:23.640 people it's been on and off for like a year for 01:27:23.640 --> 01:27:26.699 months for weeks whatever but it is not something 01:27:26.699 --> 01:27:29.239 that you you know we in suicide it definitely 01:27:29.239 --> 01:27:33.039 is not where an individual wakes up life is great 01:27:33.039 --> 01:27:35.739 there's never been any thought about this you've 01:27:35.739 --> 01:27:39.300 never contemplated or even had the idea and suddenly 01:27:39.300 --> 01:27:41.460 it just came up and you did it it doesn't work 01:27:41.460 --> 01:27:43.380 that way this is something that's been a long 01:27:43.380 --> 01:27:46.000 time coming you know some people contemplate 01:27:46.000 --> 01:27:49.699 on and off about it and definitely when alcohol 01:27:49.699 --> 01:27:52.319 is involved especially a large amount and maybe 01:27:52.319 --> 01:27:56.000 some other drugs 12 about within the last 12 01:27:56.000 --> 01:27:59.439 hours of you know the death yeah we absolutely 01:27:59.439 --> 01:28:05.060 see that it really really has impact one of the 01:28:05.060 --> 01:28:07.760 startling common denominators that came out of 01:28:07.760 --> 01:28:09.720 all these conversations of people that were in 01:28:09.720 --> 01:28:13.399 crisis at one point was over and over and over 01:28:13.399 --> 01:28:16.159 again. Initially, a few of them said it, and 01:28:16.159 --> 01:28:17.880 then I kind of honed in and then would ask it 01:28:17.880 --> 01:28:19.960 after that to make sure that I pulled that from 01:28:19.960 --> 01:28:23.960 this person. When we think about how we were 01:28:23.960 --> 01:28:26.500 discussing suicide years ago, it was selfish, 01:28:26.600 --> 01:28:28.560 it was cowardly. How could you think of your 01:28:28.560 --> 01:28:31.420 family? And then you listen to these people who 01:28:31.420 --> 01:28:34.800 are actually there. And again, that brain becoming 01:28:34.800 --> 01:28:37.300 miswired through all these different contributing 01:28:37.300 --> 01:28:41.590 factors. Their actual belief system, their their 01:28:41.590 --> 01:28:44.689 baseline has been skewed and you listen to them. 01:28:44.689 --> 01:28:47.609 They truly believe that they are the reason for 01:28:47.609 --> 01:28:49.890 their family's pain. My kids are scared of them. 01:28:49.989 --> 01:28:53.149 You know, my wife hates me, whatever it is. And 01:28:53.149 --> 01:28:54.949 so now they've got that little voice saying, 01:28:55.050 --> 01:28:57.569 well, if you just took yourself out, then they'd 01:28:57.569 --> 01:29:00.229 be happier. And there's such a tragic example 01:29:00.229 --> 01:29:02.189 in Florida. I think it was just over a year ago. 01:29:02.229 --> 01:29:04.890 We had the two young cops. They were dating and 01:29:04.890 --> 01:29:06.770 they had a baby. I think it was a little baby 01:29:06.770 --> 01:29:09.319 boy. I think he took his own life and it was 01:29:09.319 --> 01:29:12.619 barely a week after she took her own life. And 01:29:12.619 --> 01:29:14.579 so, you know, again, to the healthy mind, like 01:29:14.579 --> 01:29:16.979 it makes no sense, but it shows you this distorted 01:29:16.979 --> 01:29:20.659 belief of these people. And then you think about, 01:29:20.699 --> 01:29:22.800 we refer to alcohol as Dutch courage. You've 01:29:22.800 --> 01:29:24.859 got this voice saying, look, just do it because 01:29:24.859 --> 01:29:27.840 then they'll be happy. That makes at that moment 01:29:27.840 --> 01:29:30.720 in that, let me be clear, distorted state. It 01:29:30.720 --> 01:29:34.220 makes the suicide courageous and selfless. And 01:29:34.220 --> 01:29:36.399 now you add that last thing, that Dutch courage, 01:29:36.399 --> 01:29:38.850 that alcohol. And then you've got the completion 01:29:38.850 --> 01:29:41.109 of suicide. So that's what I've heard again, 01:29:41.189 --> 01:29:43.170 observationally through hundreds of interviews. 01:29:43.369 --> 01:29:45.869 What about that factor as you've kind of unwrapped 01:29:45.869 --> 01:29:47.750 some of the suicides that you were looking into? 01:29:49.029 --> 01:29:52.470 Absolutely. So a lot of individuals really, and 01:29:52.470 --> 01:29:54.289 I've talked to a lot of individuals who have 01:29:54.289 --> 01:29:57.270 also attempted suicide and were unsuccessful. 01:29:57.529 --> 01:30:00.630 And so going back to talk to a lot of those individuals 01:30:00.630 --> 01:30:04.090 and learning from that, you actually have the 01:30:04.090 --> 01:30:07.939 ability to. kind of confirm a lot of this work 01:30:07.939 --> 01:30:09.960 right like we're on the right path and yes this 01:30:09.960 --> 01:30:11.899 was the mindset and this is what we were finding 01:30:11.899 --> 01:30:14.800 so kind of really in that sense of the matter 01:30:14.800 --> 01:30:18.460 it's very um you know i'm very glad that some 01:30:18.460 --> 01:30:21.659 people have been unsuccessful absolutely because 01:30:21.659 --> 01:30:24.579 um you know it's so unfortunate it takes all 01:30:24.579 --> 01:30:26.840 of that in a lot of those cases for people to 01:30:26.840 --> 01:30:30.819 realize um that they can come back and they can 01:30:30.819 --> 01:30:33.720 come out of this um and i've met so many amazing 01:30:33.720 --> 01:30:36.640 people that are living their best life post an 01:30:36.640 --> 01:30:39.460 attempt that was unsuccessful i'm happy that 01:30:39.460 --> 01:30:40.939 they're here but i'm just so sad that they had 01:30:40.939 --> 01:30:42.619 to go through all of that and then i'm sad for 01:30:42.619 --> 01:30:45.399 all of those families and those that were successful 01:30:45.399 --> 01:30:48.300 and it's you know what i mean um weren't able 01:30:48.300 --> 01:30:50.640 to see that you can no matter how bad it is or 01:30:50.640 --> 01:30:53.039 how bad it seems you can come out of this one 01:30:53.039 --> 01:30:56.039 of the things that i've learned is yeah there 01:30:56.039 --> 01:30:58.800 is this really distorted way of thinking and 01:30:58.800 --> 01:31:02.260 this perspective that these people adopt of thinking 01:31:02.260 --> 01:31:05.609 that you know what my family will be better off 01:31:05.609 --> 01:31:09.109 without me. Things will be so much better. I'm 01:31:09.109 --> 01:31:12.470 the most horrible thing for them. It's me that 01:31:12.470 --> 01:31:14.630 needs to be removed or erased because I'm the 01:31:14.630 --> 01:31:17.689 problem. That is so unfortunate. And so as I 01:31:17.689 --> 01:31:20.869 go on and do these trainings, I'm very well aware 01:31:20.869 --> 01:31:24.529 of the fact that I have people around me that 01:31:24.529 --> 01:31:28.399 might be holding on by a thread. they're really 01:31:28.399 --> 01:31:31.840 struggling and i really emphasize and tell them 01:31:31.840 --> 01:31:35.460 you know from real live experience situations 01:31:35.460 --> 01:31:39.699 um cases of people who have attempted to take 01:31:39.699 --> 01:31:42.199 their life and will are still around luckily 01:31:42.199 --> 01:31:46.159 to be able to confirm and tell us like you couldn't 01:31:46.159 --> 01:31:48.859 it couldn't be further from the truth that way 01:31:48.859 --> 01:31:52.279 of thinking and then all those families that 01:31:52.279 --> 01:31:54.899 have lost their loved ones and i tell people 01:31:54.899 --> 01:31:58.680 i don't care if you have The worst possible relationship 01:31:58.680 --> 01:32:00.680 with your family, seriously, with your kids, 01:32:00.760 --> 01:32:02.380 with your significant other, like it could be 01:32:02.380 --> 01:32:04.380 the worst of the worst. I'm telling you right 01:32:04.380 --> 01:32:06.420 now because I've sat in front of those families 01:32:06.420 --> 01:32:10.140 where it really was the worst of the worst. And 01:32:10.140 --> 01:32:15.579 the suicide has done nothing more than devastate. 01:32:17.699 --> 01:32:21.119 It's the most horrific thing that they can experience, 01:32:21.239 --> 01:32:23.439 even if they had a bad relationship. It is it 01:32:23.439 --> 01:32:26.770 is just the most devastating. most horrible thing 01:32:26.770 --> 01:32:29.770 that can happen no they don't want you to die 01:32:29.770 --> 01:32:33.210 they really don't maybe you know this marriage 01:32:33.210 --> 01:32:35.609 isn't working anymore and it's really toxic and 01:32:35.609 --> 01:32:37.210 it has to end and that's fine but it doesn't 01:32:37.210 --> 01:32:39.409 mean that the live has to go lives have to go 01:32:39.409 --> 01:32:41.810 it's not to that point and i'm telling you i've 01:32:41.810 --> 01:32:44.609 met some people who they really were going through 01:32:44.609 --> 01:32:48.050 nasty nasty divorces the kids didn't care for 01:32:48.050 --> 01:32:52.949 the parent etc and devastated horrible they're 01:32:52.949 --> 01:32:56.279 they can't come back from that and i I've talked 01:32:56.279 --> 01:33:00.880 to these families years after that suicide of 01:33:00.880 --> 01:33:03.699 their loved one, and they still are not okay. 01:33:04.180 --> 01:33:06.439 So it's something that we really need to have 01:33:06.439 --> 01:33:09.140 people understand. I get that things are really 01:33:09.140 --> 01:33:10.960 rough. You may not really see it right now. You're 01:33:10.960 --> 01:33:13.319 not making the connection, but we really need 01:33:13.319 --> 01:33:16.560 to emphasize and let them know this is not going 01:33:16.560 --> 01:33:19.460 to fix. It's going to make it way, way worse. 01:33:20.350 --> 01:33:22.989 I just feel like this needs to be front and center 01:33:22.989 --> 01:33:26.529 on the posters in the conversation. If your mind 01:33:26.529 --> 01:33:28.390 is telling you, you're having this conversation 01:33:28.390 --> 01:33:31.189 that you are a burden to the people that love 01:33:31.189 --> 01:33:34.449 you, that is a massive red flag. That is your 01:33:34.449 --> 01:33:36.369 sign to be like, all right, I need to pick up 01:33:36.369 --> 01:33:37.750 the phone. I need to go see someone. I need to 01:33:37.750 --> 01:33:40.310 schedule an appointment. I just need to go to 01:33:40.310 --> 01:33:42.270 a friend's house and physically put myself in 01:33:42.270 --> 01:33:44.989 front of them because that is the precursor. 01:33:46.319 --> 01:33:49.420 Really believe that your actual reality is being 01:33:49.420 --> 01:33:51.739 distorted now. And so the things that your mind 01:33:51.739 --> 01:33:54.319 is telling you are not coming from a healthy 01:33:54.319 --> 01:33:57.439 place anymore. No. And one of the things that 01:33:57.439 --> 01:33:59.619 I have found that's really interesting about 01:33:59.619 --> 01:34:02.239 suicide is that most people actually don't want 01:34:02.239 --> 01:34:04.739 to die. That's one of the saddest parts of it 01:34:04.739 --> 01:34:07.800 all. Right. And all these cases where I'm watching 01:34:07.800 --> 01:34:10.899 this unfold and I'm putting together this like 01:34:10.899 --> 01:34:13.680 storyline, if you will, like the whole just how 01:34:13.680 --> 01:34:16.800 it unraveled and everything I'm hearing. The 01:34:16.800 --> 01:34:20.560 pain that people are experiencing is so tremendous 01:34:20.560 --> 01:34:24.659 that they don't always want to die. A lot of 01:34:24.659 --> 01:34:26.760 them actually don't want to die. They just want 01:34:26.760 --> 01:34:30.680 to stop the pain. And if you can imagine the 01:34:30.680 --> 01:34:33.699 absolute, I ask people, imagine the absolute 01:34:33.699 --> 01:34:37.560 worst point of pain that you ever experienced. 01:34:37.899 --> 01:34:39.739 Whatever that may be. Think about that. Like 01:34:39.739 --> 01:34:41.600 physical pain. I'm talking physical. Physical 01:34:41.600 --> 01:34:46.260 pain. Whatever that physical pain that was the 01:34:46.260 --> 01:34:48.060 worst of the worst where you felt like this could 01:34:48.060 --> 01:34:49.779 possibly, I feel like I'm going to die, like 01:34:49.779 --> 01:34:54.159 for real, for real. I can no longer handle this. 01:34:55.560 --> 01:34:57.659 That's, you know, and that goes on and on and 01:34:57.659 --> 01:34:59.539 on for days and months and years or whatever 01:34:59.539 --> 01:35:02.140 it may be. Like, yeah, I mean, I don't agree 01:35:02.140 --> 01:35:04.739 with it, right? I don't agree with this matter 01:35:04.739 --> 01:35:07.020 of handling the situation by taking your life, 01:35:07.100 --> 01:35:10.760 but you can start to somewhat understand and 01:35:10.760 --> 01:35:12.800 you're like, oh, this is so unfortunate that 01:35:12.800 --> 01:35:16.060 you were really in this level of pain. But you 01:35:16.060 --> 01:35:18.779 want them to understand that there really are 01:35:18.779 --> 01:35:21.399 ways that we can get through this. And I'm not 01:35:21.399 --> 01:35:23.340 going to lie, you'll have to put in the work 01:35:23.340 --> 01:35:25.640 and it might not always be easy, but you really 01:35:25.640 --> 01:35:29.479 can. So that's the hardest part and that's what's 01:35:29.479 --> 01:35:31.619 unfortunate. But I think as we continue to... 01:35:31.930 --> 01:35:34.229 put this information out and let people really 01:35:34.229 --> 01:35:38.409 start to be able to understand and make that 01:35:38.409 --> 01:35:40.789 connection i think that you can definitely have 01:35:40.789 --> 01:36:06.439 some more positive results 100 into like physical, 01:36:06.500 --> 01:36:09.020 you know, altercations with people, our head 01:36:09.020 --> 01:36:11.340 bounces off concrete all the time. I mean, it 01:36:11.340 --> 01:36:14.739 does. And because we don't see a visual injury, 01:36:15.100 --> 01:36:18.199 we oftentimes are like, I'm fine, you know, everything's 01:36:18.199 --> 01:36:20.939 good, whatever. And it isn't until later that 01:36:20.939 --> 01:36:24.640 we start to see the behaviors, right? We're seeing 01:36:24.640 --> 01:36:28.239 behaviors that are connected to a concussion 01:36:28.239 --> 01:36:30.800 or traumatic brain injury, but people don't know 01:36:30.800 --> 01:36:32.380 what that looks like. They don't know what that 01:36:32.380 --> 01:36:37.569 is. And That is something that really contributes 01:36:37.569 --> 01:36:41.210 to, again, getting into that impaired judgment, 01:36:41.329 --> 01:36:43.489 that mindset that where, you know, you have a 01:36:43.489 --> 01:36:46.409 lot of very clouded thinking, your perspective 01:36:46.409 --> 01:36:51.029 is altered. So that's another major contributor 01:36:51.029 --> 01:36:53.949 that I've been seeing that people don't even 01:36:53.949 --> 01:36:55.869 be, it just, they don't even begin to scratch 01:36:55.869 --> 01:36:59.460 the surface on talking about that. I know in 01:36:59.460 --> 01:37:02.220 the SEAL community, the CTE conversation behind 01:37:02.220 --> 01:37:04.420 a lot of the suicides, I've had some of the widows 01:37:04.420 --> 01:37:07.579 on the show. When I think about the fire service, 01:37:07.720 --> 01:37:10.079 obviously we've got less exposure to concussive 01:37:10.079 --> 01:37:12.920 impacts and that kind of thing. But, you know, 01:37:12.920 --> 01:37:14.779 there's a lot of us that played football. I was 01:37:14.779 --> 01:37:16.640 a martial artist my whole life. So I got kicked 01:37:16.640 --> 01:37:18.920 and punched in the head. And, you know, so those 01:37:18.920 --> 01:37:21.100 are all behind it as well. And then ironically, 01:37:21.239 --> 01:37:23.520 if you look at going back to sleep deprivation, 01:37:23.659 --> 01:37:26.300 the demyelination of the myelin sheath that you 01:37:26.300 --> 01:37:29.260 get from a TBI. The same exact thing happens 01:37:29.260 --> 01:37:31.500 from sleep deprivation. So from us, it might 01:37:31.500 --> 01:37:34.539 be a little less kind of traumatic, like physical, 01:37:34.739 --> 01:37:37.159 but it's more physiological. We're still getting 01:37:37.159 --> 01:37:41.579 the same degradation. Absolutely. Going to the 01:37:41.579 --> 01:37:45.579 psych meds quickly before we transition. I had 01:37:45.579 --> 01:37:48.319 a Swedish psychiatrist on the show and he was 01:37:48.319 --> 01:37:51.380 kind of just amazed the way that they're prescribed 01:37:51.380 --> 01:37:55.250 over here because. What you hear from a lot of 01:37:55.250 --> 01:37:57.689 people in that industry that actually are telling 01:37:57.689 --> 01:38:02.210 the actual data -driven facts is that the efficacy 01:38:02.210 --> 01:38:04.210 of a lot of these psych meds aren't actually 01:38:04.210 --> 01:38:06.409 anywhere near as good as people would think. 01:38:06.850 --> 01:38:10.489 And that when they are used appropriately, it's 01:38:10.489 --> 01:38:12.890 supposed to be for a short amount of time as 01:38:12.890 --> 01:38:15.229 you then are diving into the psychology behind 01:38:15.229 --> 01:38:17.949 it and then wean them off. But if you look at 01:38:17.949 --> 01:38:20.710 the States getting away from psychology, let's 01:38:20.710 --> 01:38:23.859 say we go into... the doctor's office and got 01:38:23.859 --> 01:38:25.760 high blood pressure, they just give you blood 01:38:25.760 --> 01:38:27.819 pressure meds. They're not saying, all right, 01:38:27.880 --> 01:38:29.779 well, it's a little higher now. We'll take these 01:38:29.779 --> 01:38:31.720 beta blockers for a few weeks, but we've got 01:38:31.720 --> 01:38:33.380 to start working on your weight. We've got to 01:38:33.380 --> 01:38:34.859 get you eating better. We've got to get you moving 01:38:34.859 --> 01:38:37.399 because we want to get you off these pills. And 01:38:37.399 --> 01:38:39.460 I feel it's the same exact conversation in the 01:38:39.460 --> 01:38:42.699 mental health space when it comes to psych meds 01:38:42.699 --> 01:38:45.420 in this country is, oh, I'm on antidepressants. 01:38:46.159 --> 01:38:48.699 Like forever? That's what they told you. Like 01:38:48.699 --> 01:38:50.720 for the next 40 years, you're going to be popping 01:38:50.720 --> 01:38:53.359 these pills. So I think that that's an issue. 01:38:53.460 --> 01:38:55.680 I'm not saying that all psychiatrists are evil 01:38:55.680 --> 01:38:57.779 people because they're not. But I think there's 01:38:57.779 --> 01:39:02.520 a very unprofessional or I don't know, just just 01:39:02.520 --> 01:39:05.199 an undereducated element to the prescription 01:39:05.199 --> 01:39:07.300 of psych meds. If it's going to bridge a gap 01:39:07.300 --> 01:39:10.260 and get someone to be able to temper their emotions 01:39:10.260 --> 01:39:12.960 and get back in the gym and, you know, get to 01:39:12.960 --> 01:39:15.859 some counseling sessions, then, yeah, it'd be 01:39:15.859 --> 01:39:18.689 a great adjunct. But I feel like a lot of times 01:39:18.689 --> 01:39:21.109 they're prescribed ongoing, which is never how 01:39:21.109 --> 01:39:23.329 these were ever, ever supposed to be prescribed 01:39:23.329 --> 01:39:27.569 in the first place. Yeah. One of the biggest 01:39:27.569 --> 01:39:31.149 things that I find is, first of all, when it 01:39:31.149 --> 01:39:33.630 comes to psychotropic medications, reality is 01:39:33.630 --> 01:39:36.189 that some individuals really do need to be on 01:39:36.189 --> 01:39:38.829 them. In some cases, people don't necessarily 01:39:38.829 --> 01:39:41.590 need to be on them or not on them that long. 01:39:41.710 --> 01:39:46.189 Right. Sometimes they. They need to be used temporarily. 01:39:47.770 --> 01:39:51.590 And when I say that there's an issue with mismanagement, 01:39:51.609 --> 01:39:55.949 meaning that the individuals are not taking them, 01:39:56.050 --> 01:39:58.970 they're not taking them as they should, right? 01:39:59.109 --> 01:40:03.600 So if you have to take it once every day. At 01:40:03.600 --> 01:40:05.439 a certain time or whatever, you really should 01:40:05.439 --> 01:40:07.020 stick to that. If you're going to come off of 01:40:07.020 --> 01:40:08.960 them, you really should speak to the doctor to 01:40:08.960 --> 01:40:11.479 have the doctor wean you off properly so that 01:40:11.479 --> 01:40:13.619 you don't run the risk of being in some kind 01:40:13.619 --> 01:40:18.199 of like psychological emergency. I often tell 01:40:18.199 --> 01:40:23.340 officers, fire, paramedics, the story of how, 01:40:23.460 --> 01:40:26.140 you know, when we get that call where there's 01:40:26.140 --> 01:40:29.180 that individual and we always get it, we've all 01:40:29.180 --> 01:40:33.020 had it. where the individual's family is calling 01:40:33.020 --> 01:40:37.100 911 and they're saying hey you know john is bipolar 01:40:37.100 --> 01:40:40.520 john takes medication but john hasn't taken his 01:40:40.520 --> 01:40:43.319 medication in two weeks and now john's tearing 01:40:43.319 --> 01:40:45.640 up the house and john's losing it we need you 01:40:45.640 --> 01:40:47.739 to come and help us right you show up and sure 01:40:47.739 --> 01:40:51.340 enough john's tore the house up it looks like 01:40:51.340 --> 01:40:54.119 a tornado went through everything's broken. It's 01:40:54.119 --> 01:40:56.359 just ripped to pieces. And now John's ready to 01:40:56.359 --> 01:40:59.399 like fight you. You know, it's just trying to 01:40:59.399 --> 01:41:01.060 get him in the ambulance to try to get him over 01:41:01.060 --> 01:41:06.300 for a psych eval. Like this is a very like prime 01:41:06.300 --> 01:41:11.100 example of an individual who's on a psychotropic 01:41:11.100 --> 01:41:14.640 medication for a mood stabilizer. Okay. And for 01:41:14.640 --> 01:41:17.100 whatever reason, he didn't like the effects of 01:41:17.100 --> 01:41:18.640 the medication. He didn't like how it was making 01:41:18.640 --> 01:41:20.579 him feel. Cause that's usually the case, right? 01:41:20.640 --> 01:41:24.300 Why they stop. abruptly just taking them and 01:41:24.300 --> 01:41:28.180 they go so they go off cold turkey and now the 01:41:28.180 --> 01:41:31.800 symptoms of their disorder are that much more 01:41:31.800 --> 01:41:34.079 intensified they're having maybe a psychotic 01:41:34.079 --> 01:41:38.159 episode whatever it may be and so this is the 01:41:38.159 --> 01:41:43.300 outcome of how um these drugs need to be taken 01:41:43.300 --> 01:41:46.760 at a certain time certain way. If you're going 01:41:46.760 --> 01:41:48.819 to be coming off of them, there's a way to do 01:41:48.819 --> 01:41:50.880 it. You can't just stop because then it causes 01:41:50.880 --> 01:41:54.020 all kinds of issues. So imagine if that's happening 01:41:54.020 --> 01:41:57.039 to just a regular individual, a civilian of society, 01:41:57.460 --> 01:42:00.420 absolutely this can happen to first responders. 01:42:00.640 --> 01:42:02.720 Yeah, they're not invincible. This will happen 01:42:02.720 --> 01:42:05.359 to them too. And this is what happens, right? 01:42:06.659 --> 01:42:08.760 And then sometimes they're not under the right 01:42:08.760 --> 01:42:11.739 care. right um primary physicians love them they're 01:42:11.739 --> 01:42:14.420 fantastic but if i'm going to be on something 01:42:14.420 --> 01:42:17.319 for a longer period of time then maybe i should 01:42:17.319 --> 01:42:19.960 be referred off to a psychiatrist because they 01:42:19.960 --> 01:42:25.060 are the ones that handle and um prescribe psychotropic 01:42:25.060 --> 01:42:27.460 medications right like if i go to my primary 01:42:27.460 --> 01:42:29.739 initially because i have a problem with something 01:42:29.739 --> 01:42:31.939 and i'm not really sure like what to do or what 01:42:31.939 --> 01:42:34.420 the issue is absolutely my primary physician 01:42:34.420 --> 01:42:36.340 will help me get to the bottom of the issue maybe 01:42:36.340 --> 01:42:38.060 he'll treat me for a bit but once it becomes 01:42:38.060 --> 01:42:42.659 a little more beyond his scope of knowledge or, 01:42:42.779 --> 01:42:46.659 you know, you just really want someone who specializes 01:42:46.659 --> 01:42:48.819 specifically in this is what we should be doing, 01:42:48.939 --> 01:42:52.000 right? For the most part, if I have, you know, 01:42:52.000 --> 01:42:55.680 a break of a bone, I may go to my primary initially, 01:42:55.840 --> 01:42:57.479 but he'll either say, okay, yeah, it looks like 01:42:57.479 --> 01:42:59.159 you might have a break, but I'm not really sure. 01:42:59.279 --> 01:43:01.100 You're going to have to go to the ER and have 01:43:01.100 --> 01:43:04.539 it x -rayed, you know, or go see an orthopedic 01:43:04.539 --> 01:43:07.170 doctor. Because they specialize with bones and 01:43:07.170 --> 01:43:10.149 all of that and breaks and so on. Same thing 01:43:10.149 --> 01:43:12.550 with a cardiologist. So why aren't we doing this 01:43:12.550 --> 01:43:15.630 with our mental health professionals? It's important 01:43:15.630 --> 01:43:19.210 that they specialize in these psychotropic medications. 01:43:19.710 --> 01:43:22.270 There's so many different options out there for 01:43:22.270 --> 01:43:26.729 different meds for depression alone. Why wouldn't 01:43:26.729 --> 01:43:29.069 I want to maybe... work with the individual that 01:43:29.069 --> 01:43:31.829 has seen so many patients and knows like, given 01:43:31.829 --> 01:43:34.350 my situation, given my history and all that, 01:43:34.449 --> 01:43:37.390 like they would rather maybe, you know, try this 01:43:37.390 --> 01:43:39.810 versus this. And I think the other thing that's 01:43:39.810 --> 01:43:41.850 so important is that we need to learn to self 01:43:41.850 --> 01:43:43.970 -advocate for ourselves. So you need to do the 01:43:43.970 --> 01:43:45.989 research and you really need to know what questions 01:43:45.989 --> 01:43:49.130 to ask, what, you know, what concerns you may 01:43:49.130 --> 01:43:51.829 have and really be a part of the treatment plan 01:43:51.829 --> 01:43:53.630 as opposed to just sitting there like a sitting 01:43:53.630 --> 01:43:56.300 duck and just. I don't know, just have someone 01:43:56.300 --> 01:43:58.939 tell you what to do and how to do it. We are 01:43:58.939 --> 01:44:01.880 constantly investigating all day, every day in 01:44:01.880 --> 01:44:04.079 our jobs, even when we get home in some cases 01:44:04.079 --> 01:44:05.859 as first responders, right? Because that's part 01:44:05.859 --> 01:44:08.460 of our duty. So when it comes to your self -care, 01:44:08.659 --> 01:44:11.699 you should really be learning to self -advocate 01:44:11.699 --> 01:44:13.560 for yourself, which is one of the other things 01:44:13.560 --> 01:44:16.979 that I really focus on with giving another tool 01:44:16.979 --> 01:44:19.859 to our first responders for that self -care. 01:44:21.060 --> 01:44:23.060 There's a funny video that's floating around 01:44:23.060 --> 01:44:26.220 and it's... husband and wife and she says she's 01:44:26.220 --> 01:44:28.760 got a headache and he's pointing out this because 01:44:28.760 --> 01:44:30.760 there's a giant metal nail sticking out of her 01:44:30.760 --> 01:44:33.140 head and she's like you don't understand and 01:44:33.140 --> 01:44:35.020 it's that's how i feel with this whole mental 01:44:35.020 --> 01:44:38.460 health conversation is you keep giving them tylenol 01:44:38.460 --> 01:44:40.899 but you're not pulling the nail out of the head 01:44:40.899 --> 01:44:43.479 right so when we're taking antidote i'm not talking 01:44:43.479 --> 01:44:45.439 about schizophrenic and bipolar obviously there's 01:44:45.439 --> 01:44:47.899 some That's where over and over again, I hear, 01:44:47.939 --> 01:44:50.279 yes, medication is appropriate at that point, 01:44:50.319 --> 01:44:54.119 unless you can obviously unravel that using other 01:44:54.119 --> 01:44:56.479 modalities as well. But when it comes to depression, 01:44:56.680 --> 01:44:59.140 anxiety, some of the ones that we see most common, 01:44:59.739 --> 01:45:02.779 you're on this pill, great, but that's mitigating 01:45:02.779 --> 01:45:05.699 symptoms. Are you addressing the root cause? 01:45:05.899 --> 01:45:08.439 And if not, why not? And I think it's the same, 01:45:08.500 --> 01:45:11.359 again, going back to diabetes, hypertension. 01:45:12.060 --> 01:45:14.560 If you're just taking pills, if you're just taking 01:45:14.560 --> 01:45:17.920 insulin. and not addressing the fact that your 01:45:17.920 --> 01:45:20.800 body's doing this in the first place, then again, 01:45:20.859 --> 01:45:22.840 it goes back to that self -advocacy. Why not 01:45:22.840 --> 01:45:25.279 get to that point? Because the goal is to get 01:45:25.279 --> 01:45:27.819 off the pills. You should not be on pills if 01:45:27.819 --> 01:45:31.659 you can avoid it. Yeah, we definitely have to 01:45:31.659 --> 01:45:35.119 do better at learning to self -advocate for ourselves. 01:45:35.180 --> 01:45:38.600 And really, I'm... Maybe I'm just a little bit 01:45:38.600 --> 01:45:42.020 of a weirdo, but I really like to get to the 01:45:42.020 --> 01:45:44.960 bottom of a problem. I really do. Cause I always, 01:45:45.119 --> 01:45:48.420 I don't know. My mindset has always been like, 01:45:48.460 --> 01:45:51.060 maybe I overanalyze, but I want to get to the 01:45:51.060 --> 01:45:52.960 source of the issue. Like, okay, well, what's 01:45:52.960 --> 01:45:55.520 going on here? Why, why is this happening? And. 01:45:56.039 --> 01:45:58.560 learn from like once you're able I mean sometimes 01:45:58.560 --> 01:46:01.260 we may not have an answer but at least I'm trying 01:46:01.260 --> 01:46:03.800 to get to the source of the problem instead of 01:46:03.800 --> 01:46:05.979 just kind of like yeah you know kind of shelving 01:46:05.979 --> 01:46:08.319 it like yeah well whatever we're just going to 01:46:08.319 --> 01:46:09.859 go through the motions like no let's get to the 01:46:09.859 --> 01:46:12.079 bottom of the to the source of the problem to 01:46:12.079 --> 01:46:14.220 the root of it and try to see like okay now that 01:46:14.220 --> 01:46:16.739 we understand what that is how do we proceed 01:46:16.739 --> 01:46:20.260 are there better ways and of you know proceeding 01:46:20.260 --> 01:46:23.789 with making this better yeah i agree 100 and 01:46:23.789 --> 01:46:26.430 i'm the same if you reverse engineer enough you'll 01:46:26.430 --> 01:46:28.810 find some pretty basic things that need to be 01:46:28.810 --> 01:46:31.930 changed well we talked about you know symptoms 01:46:31.930 --> 01:46:34.869 and signs and all these things let's go to solutions 01:46:34.869 --> 01:46:38.010 so talk to me about canine therapy and then uh 01:46:38.010 --> 01:46:42.010 resilient heroes okay so you know there have 01:46:42.010 --> 01:46:44.510 been a lot of studies out there that show um 01:46:44.510 --> 01:46:47.949 how animals and i know that you mentioned growing 01:46:47.949 --> 01:46:50.170 up um all the animals that you were around and 01:46:50.170 --> 01:46:54.859 so There's this hormone that as human beings 01:46:54.859 --> 01:46:58.140 we crave, that oxytocin, that feel -good hormone. 01:46:58.380 --> 01:47:00.699 We get that from hugging people, having social 01:47:00.699 --> 01:47:04.560 touch, interaction. We've found in studies that 01:47:04.560 --> 01:47:07.560 the animals, interacting with the animals, we 01:47:07.560 --> 01:47:11.800 get that. We get that fix. And so a lot of individuals 01:47:11.800 --> 01:47:15.840 are seeing more and more therapy dogs out and 01:47:15.840 --> 01:47:18.390 about. And I know some people are kind of like, 01:47:18.390 --> 01:47:20.229 oh, you know, first and foremost, the difference 01:47:20.229 --> 01:47:23.069 between a service animal and a therapy, the service 01:47:23.069 --> 01:47:27.050 animal does a job for you, the one individual. 01:47:27.149 --> 01:47:28.710 Those are the animals that will have the vest 01:47:28.710 --> 01:47:30.270 that says, you know, do not pet, I'm working. 01:47:30.630 --> 01:47:33.010 So they're there to provide a service to that 01:47:33.010 --> 01:47:36.289 individual. The therapy dogs, on the other hand, 01:47:36.350 --> 01:47:40.050 they're there for everyone, right? So I have 01:47:40.050 --> 01:47:44.739 Arlo, our certified trauma therapy dog. um and 01:47:44.739 --> 01:47:48.300 he's actually he's a little unique um he is a 01:47:48.300 --> 01:47:51.359 200 pound bull mastiff and i know people are 01:47:51.359 --> 01:47:54.000 just like what the heck this is a horse um he's 01:47:54.000 --> 01:47:59.710 a big boy he is great um and the animals have 01:47:59.710 --> 01:48:03.189 this impact on people especially the dogs and 01:48:03.189 --> 01:48:06.189 the reason why arlo specifically his breed i 01:48:06.189 --> 01:48:09.750 felt was very appropriate was because he does 01:48:09.750 --> 01:48:12.289 share this commonality with first responders 01:48:12.289 --> 01:48:15.930 military where on the exterior you know they 01:48:15.930 --> 01:48:19.369 may be just big massive tough looking right just 01:48:19.369 --> 01:48:23.130 rough um but on the in the interior they're really 01:48:23.130 --> 01:48:27.130 just gentle giants that are very loving And so 01:48:27.130 --> 01:48:29.670 Arlo came about because I had two friends of 01:48:29.670 --> 01:48:33.449 mine who had done a couple tours of Iraq in the 01:48:33.449 --> 01:48:36.210 military and they're police officers. And when 01:48:36.210 --> 01:48:38.789 they came back at the end of their tours, Arlo 01:48:38.789 --> 01:48:41.130 at the time was just my regular, you know, pet 01:48:41.130 --> 01:48:46.210 at home. Two of these individuals, I was convinced 01:48:46.210 --> 01:48:49.130 something bad was going to happen. One of them, 01:48:49.130 --> 01:48:52.050 I was for sure convinced he's going to eat his 01:48:52.050 --> 01:48:54.510 gun. I could not leave him alone. It was very 01:48:54.510 --> 01:48:58.380 difficult to like. not have eyes on him. Didn't 01:48:58.380 --> 01:49:00.439 know what to do because, of course, very guarded, 01:49:00.760 --> 01:49:05.319 shut down, isolated. So I had them around my 01:49:05.319 --> 01:49:08.020 house. And these were two totally different situations. 01:49:09.199 --> 01:49:12.760 And so with each situation, the first one, when 01:49:12.760 --> 01:49:16.060 this guy came around, he engaged with Arlo. And 01:49:16.060 --> 01:49:18.479 it's funny because he's so big and he's such 01:49:18.479 --> 01:49:21.140 a massive breed that people are just like, I 01:49:21.140 --> 01:49:24.380 can't believe this is your dog. He's so massive. 01:49:25.760 --> 01:49:27.859 They kind of like zone in on him and they start 01:49:27.859 --> 01:49:30.000 talking with like that mushy language like, oh, 01:49:30.000 --> 01:49:34.960 my God, you're so big. And it made them comfortable 01:49:34.960 --> 01:49:37.979 enough that they started to open up about things 01:49:37.979 --> 01:49:39.800 that I couldn't get them to talk about. And I 01:49:39.800 --> 01:49:42.539 wasn't asking. They just in their interaction 01:49:42.539 --> 01:49:45.000 with the dog, petting the dog, just kind of like, 01:49:45.000 --> 01:49:48.020 you know, zoned in on the dog. They started talking 01:49:48.020 --> 01:49:50.100 and they started to unleash some information 01:49:50.100 --> 01:49:54.920 that however it made them feel. was good enough, 01:49:54.960 --> 01:49:58.619 whatever they felt from that was the beginning 01:49:58.619 --> 01:50:02.579 of them realizing that maybe they do need to 01:50:02.579 --> 01:50:05.840 get some help. Maybe they need to do something 01:50:05.840 --> 01:50:09.199 to feel what they're feeling from the interaction 01:50:09.199 --> 01:50:11.180 with the dog. And it was the beginning of them 01:50:11.180 --> 01:50:13.680 seeking out their resources and their therapeutic 01:50:13.680 --> 01:50:17.180 modalities that were the fit for them and them 01:50:17.180 --> 01:50:20.279 healing. And now we can say that they are both 01:50:20.279 --> 01:50:24.199 living their best life today. So I knew I had 01:50:24.199 --> 01:50:25.859 something special with the dog, especially with 01:50:25.859 --> 01:50:27.420 the first guy. But, you know, life gets in the 01:50:27.420 --> 01:50:29.319 way. And then by the second guy, I was like, 01:50:29.420 --> 01:50:32.600 OK, I just can't ignore this. So that is the 01:50:32.600 --> 01:50:35.020 beginning of how Arlo went into training. And 01:50:35.020 --> 01:50:37.619 he is now a certified trauma therapy dog. And 01:50:37.619 --> 01:50:40.819 he goes with me to most just about all like the 01:50:40.819 --> 01:50:44.100 trainings, conferences, all of that through Resilient 01:50:44.100 --> 01:50:46.760 Heroes that I can drive to because we cannot 01:50:46.760 --> 01:50:48.920 get him on a plane. I was just going to say that 01:50:48.920 --> 01:50:53.039 he's not a lap dog. He thinks he is. He thinks 01:50:53.039 --> 01:50:55.939 he's a chihuahua at 200 pounds as a six year 01:50:55.939 --> 01:51:00.479 old bull mastiff. You talked about the two veteran 01:51:00.479 --> 01:51:03.720 that are also police officers. That one you were 01:51:03.720 --> 01:51:05.899 worried about is going to eat his gun. You know, 01:51:05.899 --> 01:51:08.539 Arlo opens the door and now he goes on his own 01:51:08.539 --> 01:51:11.500 healing journey. When it comes to this whole 01:51:11.500 --> 01:51:14.569 conversation that we've had today. I think where 01:51:14.569 --> 01:51:17.949 we failed as a profession is we've just allowed 01:51:17.949 --> 01:51:20.770 the conversation to get stuck at smash the stigma, 01:51:20.869 --> 01:51:23.609 which doesn't do anything. I mean, I get create 01:51:23.609 --> 01:51:26.529 an environment for vulnerable, courageous vulnerability. 01:51:26.729 --> 01:51:29.409 That's ultimately what we need. But that's just 01:51:29.409 --> 01:51:31.449 someone open up saying, I need help. It's the 01:51:31.449 --> 01:51:34.829 what's next. Where I feel like there's so much 01:51:34.829 --> 01:51:37.670 hope and yet it's so under discussed is the post 01:51:37.670 --> 01:51:40.020 -traumatic growth. is the fact, as you said, 01:51:40.060 --> 01:51:42.199 those two men are living their best life, or 01:51:42.199 --> 01:51:45.100 men or women, depending on who they are, are 01:51:45.100 --> 01:51:47.579 living their best life. And they then become 01:51:47.579 --> 01:51:50.779 beacons of hope for other people. And so I think 01:51:50.779 --> 01:51:53.060 as we talked about that unaddressed trauma from 01:51:53.060 --> 01:51:54.960 our early life, and then the trauma we accumulate 01:51:54.960 --> 01:51:57.600 through our profession, when worked through, 01:51:57.640 --> 01:52:00.119 I truly believe that becomes strength, that becomes 01:52:00.119 --> 01:52:03.859 the gold glue on Japanese pottery. So talk to 01:52:03.859 --> 01:52:06.199 me about that. You've watched these metamorphosis. 01:52:06.739 --> 01:52:10.020 Talk about the hope. and the kind of people that 01:52:10.020 --> 01:52:12.939 we can become when we figure out what needs to 01:52:12.939 --> 01:52:15.359 be addressed and we find our own unique toolbox 01:52:15.359 --> 01:52:20.340 to start working through the trauma yeah so with 01:52:20.340 --> 01:52:23.000 these particular two individuals and many others 01:52:23.000 --> 01:52:27.880 i i and i've said this When people actually deal 01:52:27.880 --> 01:52:31.220 with their shit, when they unpack and do the 01:52:31.220 --> 01:52:33.939 work to try to get through to get to a better 01:52:33.939 --> 01:52:36.699 place, these individuals have way better outcomes 01:52:36.699 --> 01:52:39.199 than the individuals who want to be in denial, 01:52:39.359 --> 01:52:44.279 who are afraid of the stigma, who are in denial 01:52:44.279 --> 01:52:48.760 of what they're going through and trying to just 01:52:48.760 --> 01:52:52.420 look the other way or kind of like just brush 01:52:52.420 --> 01:52:55.510 it under the rug. There are so many different 01:52:55.510 --> 01:52:58.310 modalities out there, therapeutic modalities 01:52:58.310 --> 01:53:00.510 that people aren't even aware of. And I think 01:53:00.510 --> 01:53:03.109 that's one, again, the knowledge gap. This is 01:53:03.109 --> 01:53:04.850 why I'm doing the work that I'm doing because 01:53:04.850 --> 01:53:08.909 I'm not kidding. There's just not enough information. 01:53:09.170 --> 01:53:10.789 You would think people know all of this and they 01:53:10.789 --> 01:53:13.250 really don't. And it's like, wow, just because 01:53:13.250 --> 01:53:16.909 of some lack of information, these horrible outcomes 01:53:16.909 --> 01:53:19.670 are presenting themselves. We have to do better. 01:53:20.289 --> 01:53:23.100 People think. when they think of therapy or they 01:53:23.100 --> 01:53:25.699 think of like psychology they only think of talk 01:53:25.699 --> 01:53:28.779 therapy right which is our psychotherapy um does 01:53:28.779 --> 01:53:30.840 it work for everyone absolutely not one of the 01:53:30.840 --> 01:53:32.640 things that people don't understand or don't 01:53:32.640 --> 01:53:35.479 realize is that psychology is not one size fits 01:53:35.479 --> 01:53:38.619 all right so what works for you may not work 01:53:38.619 --> 01:53:41.960 for me and vice versa so when you ask people 01:53:41.960 --> 01:53:45.039 hey what what are options out there all i hear 01:53:45.039 --> 01:53:49.250 is psychotherapy talk therapy talking with a 01:53:49.250 --> 01:53:51.689 doctor, those are the only answers I get. And 01:53:51.689 --> 01:53:53.689 I'm like, oh my gosh, there's such a whole world 01:53:53.689 --> 01:53:56.250 out there of information and different modalities, 01:53:56.250 --> 01:54:00.270 like that you have to actually look to see what 01:54:00.270 --> 01:54:02.550 works for you or what may not. It doesn't all 01:54:02.550 --> 01:54:06.010 work for everybody. But just talking about like 01:54:06.010 --> 01:54:10.229 EMDR, hyperbaric chambers, cold water plunges, 01:54:10.229 --> 01:54:13.460 retreats. um so many different options i mean 01:54:13.460 --> 01:54:16.560 we can go on all day here about them um it's 01:54:16.560 --> 01:54:18.600 one of the things that we need to be talking 01:54:18.600 --> 01:54:21.279 about more so people are you know everybody didn't 01:54:21.279 --> 01:54:23.539 know what psychotherapy was for a long time what 01:54:23.539 --> 01:54:25.100 but the more we talked about it the more you 01:54:25.100 --> 01:54:27.260 heard about it the more people mention it more 01:54:27.260 --> 01:54:31.380 people become more um educated on the topic and 01:54:31.380 --> 01:54:33.859 they know what it is you really can't find anyone 01:54:33.859 --> 01:54:36.279 nowadays you say psychotherapy or talk therapy 01:54:36.279 --> 01:54:38.739 they know what they know what it is but at one 01:54:38.739 --> 01:54:41.079 point they didn't all know what it was so we 01:54:41.079 --> 01:54:42.960 need to start doing that doing that with all 01:54:42.960 --> 01:54:45.899 the other modalities so that we can start normalizing 01:54:45.899 --> 01:54:47.859 those and like putting them out there and it's 01:54:47.859 --> 01:54:49.659 like oh yeah i know what that is or i tried it 01:54:49.659 --> 01:54:52.640 or i didn't whatever um and that's one of the 01:54:52.640 --> 01:54:57.039 things again psychoeducate when you present information 01:54:57.039 --> 01:55:01.789 to people and different options they They now 01:55:01.789 --> 01:55:04.449 have the ability to make a conscious decision 01:55:04.449 --> 01:55:07.270 for themselves, whether it sounds appealing or 01:55:07.270 --> 01:55:10.149 not, whether they've tried it. They can do that, 01:55:10.149 --> 01:55:12.890 right? They can turn to something. Most people 01:55:12.890 --> 01:55:15.630 just don't know what is available to them, what 01:55:15.630 --> 01:55:18.140 they can do. And so I think that that's one of 01:55:18.140 --> 01:55:20.340 the biggest thing is filling that knowledge gap. 01:55:20.460 --> 01:55:22.340 And especially when it comes to something like 01:55:22.340 --> 01:55:24.739 the world of psychology and like these different 01:55:24.739 --> 01:55:28.380 modalities, because if you don't know about it 01:55:28.380 --> 01:55:30.279 because you didn't go to school for it or you're 01:55:30.279 --> 01:55:33.640 somehow not involved in that platform, like, 01:55:33.699 --> 01:55:35.939 how do you know? Right. I mean, I don't know 01:55:35.939 --> 01:55:39.220 everything about everything in life until somebody 01:55:39.220 --> 01:55:41.899 if someone brings anything up of any topic, any 01:55:41.899 --> 01:55:44.560 subject matter that I've never heard of. Until 01:55:44.560 --> 01:55:46.880 I actually have someone explain it to me or I 01:55:46.880 --> 01:55:49.340 sit down and I educate myself, I won't know. 01:55:49.439 --> 01:55:53.199 And that's fine. But have options. I think this 01:55:53.199 --> 01:55:55.880 has been amazing. Even the world of the psychedelics, 01:55:55.880 --> 01:55:58.020 you know, you've got MDMA, you've got ketamine, 01:55:58.100 --> 01:56:01.199 you've got, you know, Ibogaine, you've got, you 01:56:01.199 --> 01:56:04.020 know, ayahuasca. So even that, you know, that's 01:56:04.020 --> 01:56:06.140 I've just had two firefighters message me. They 01:56:06.140 --> 01:56:09.279 were at a psychedelic retreat through the Siren 01:56:09.279 --> 01:56:11.319 Project, which is a nonprofit that puts first 01:56:11.319 --> 01:56:14.720 responders through. And they literally had a 01:56:14.720 --> 01:56:16.680 complete revelation. And these are men that have 01:56:16.680 --> 01:56:18.560 already put in the work. And I think this is 01:56:18.560 --> 01:56:20.880 important when you have treatment -resistant 01:56:20.880 --> 01:56:24.680 depression or some of the associated struggles. 01:56:25.319 --> 01:56:28.060 Maybe that's the key to the lock that opens the 01:56:28.060 --> 01:56:30.039 door. And it's not a magic bullet, but maybe 01:56:30.039 --> 01:56:32.260 that will be the aha moment for you. And then 01:56:32.260 --> 01:56:34.579 you kind of find that pee beneath the mattress, 01:56:34.699 --> 01:56:38.539 as we say. So the hope in this massive toolbox 01:56:38.539 --> 01:56:42.100 from equine therapy to... you know, ayahuasca 01:56:42.100 --> 01:56:44.619 and everything in between. I think that's what 01:56:44.619 --> 01:56:46.560 we need to be shouting from the rooftops as well, 01:56:46.640 --> 01:56:48.539 is get people to understand that they're struggling, 01:56:48.619 --> 01:56:50.979 but give them the hope. Like, okay, you tried 01:56:50.979 --> 01:56:53.020 this counselor, it didn't work. Have you tried 01:56:53.020 --> 01:56:55.079 a different human being, another counselor? Maybe 01:56:55.079 --> 01:56:57.520 you'll have the right connection. Maybe an MDMA 01:56:57.520 --> 01:56:59.439 or something else will open the door and then 01:56:59.439 --> 01:57:01.399 you go back to the right counselor. And now all 01:57:01.399 --> 01:57:04.090 of a sudden you're unpacking this stuff. So, 01:57:04.229 --> 01:57:06.529 yeah, I mean, the hope element, I think, is what 01:57:06.529 --> 01:57:08.409 we need to put in now. So people are excited 01:57:08.409 --> 01:57:10.829 to find out who they can be when they do the 01:57:10.829 --> 01:57:14.069 work. Yeah, absolutely. Giving them resources 01:57:14.069 --> 01:57:17.930 and giving them options is really what we need 01:57:17.930 --> 01:57:21.390 to put at the forefront. 100 percent. All right. 01:57:21.390 --> 01:57:24.010 Well, before we wrap up, expand on what you offer 01:57:24.010 --> 01:57:28.229 with Resilient Heroes. So Resilient Heroes is 01:57:28.229 --> 01:57:32.569 a nonprofit that I started due to all of this 01:57:32.569 --> 01:57:35.380 work. As I had conducted all these autopsies 01:57:35.380 --> 01:57:38.479 and I found what I felt was missing, what we 01:57:38.479 --> 01:57:41.520 were needing, I decided to put curriculum together. 01:57:41.979 --> 01:57:44.159 Now, it's important to understand that as first 01:57:44.159 --> 01:57:46.640 responders, we go through training and a lot 01:57:46.640 --> 01:57:49.779 of it, sometimes we don't care about. We don't 01:57:49.779 --> 01:57:52.739 want to be there. We have to just complete some 01:57:52.739 --> 01:57:56.239 of this stuff. Some training is great. However, 01:57:56.520 --> 01:57:59.159 one thing that I have found throughout my years 01:57:59.159 --> 01:58:02.739 as an officer. and a lot of fellow first responders 01:58:02.739 --> 01:58:07.520 that sit in that trainee seat is that we sometimes 01:58:07.520 --> 01:58:10.819 we oftentimes actually have a lot of people that 01:58:10.819 --> 01:58:13.220 come in and provide us these like trainings or 01:58:13.220 --> 01:58:17.760 or whatnot and the delivery is just awful right 01:58:17.760 --> 01:58:21.560 they it may be great material it may be great 01:58:21.560 --> 01:58:25.699 but again not understanding the culture of our 01:58:25.699 --> 01:58:30.329 our work and how to deliver the information that 01:58:30.329 --> 01:58:31.909 they're trying to deliver in a way that will 01:58:31.909 --> 01:58:34.270 understand it, that will resonate with us, is 01:58:34.270 --> 01:58:37.869 one of the pieces I found that's missing. And 01:58:37.869 --> 01:58:40.510 so for me, it was very important not just to 01:58:40.510 --> 01:58:42.609 put together some other, just another training, 01:58:42.789 --> 01:58:45.250 another curriculum that, you know, just really 01:58:45.250 --> 01:58:47.850 doesn't go anywhere. It was important on how 01:58:47.850 --> 01:58:52.090 it's designed, right? So this curriculum was 01:58:52.090 --> 01:58:55.029 designed to really make it a very interactive. 01:58:56.640 --> 01:59:00.899 group setting way of learning where I'm not going 01:59:00.899 --> 01:59:02.619 to like, it's not going to be death by PowerPoint. 01:59:02.899 --> 01:59:06.640 We've had enough of that. It's very much talking 01:59:06.640 --> 01:59:09.840 about all these important pieces of information 01:59:09.840 --> 01:59:11.899 from an educational standpoint and knowledge 01:59:11.899 --> 01:59:14.119 that we want to give to the first responders, 01:59:14.239 --> 01:59:17.000 but you do it in a way where we do it through 01:59:17.000 --> 01:59:21.300 a lot of lived experiences, if you will. So we 01:59:21.300 --> 01:59:24.119 understand, right? I have worn the hat for 21 01:59:24.119 --> 01:59:27.000 years as a police officer. they also bring the 01:59:27.000 --> 01:59:30.920 psychological um experience and so combining 01:59:30.920 --> 01:59:33.779 those two and really just presenting it in a 01:59:33.779 --> 01:59:36.979 way and all of the information that really fits 01:59:36.979 --> 01:59:39.760 especially within our population is important 01:59:39.760 --> 01:59:45.000 so i essentially am providing you know everything 01:59:45.000 --> 01:59:48.920 along the lines of the trauma the suicide the 01:59:48.920 --> 01:59:52.939 resources um all those different treatment modalities 01:59:52.939 --> 01:59:55.859 that are options um how to advocate for yourself 01:59:55.859 --> 01:59:58.960 all of that information is being presented and 01:59:58.960 --> 02:00:03.500 it's really incredible to see how people how 02:00:03.500 --> 02:00:06.199 it's impacting individuals right so i really 02:00:06.199 --> 02:00:09.520 focus on impact metrics and really trying to 02:00:09.520 --> 02:00:12.439 see you know what's working what's not how do 02:00:12.439 --> 02:00:15.340 we need to do um what changes do we need to make 02:00:15.340 --> 02:00:18.800 what do we need to add um to really have people 02:00:19.359 --> 02:00:21.539 take this information not only have it resonate 02:00:21.539 --> 02:00:24.079 with them but have them actually start applying 02:00:24.079 --> 02:00:28.399 all of this um and have an extra set of tools 02:00:28.399 --> 02:00:30.840 in their toolbox for them to have better outcomes 02:00:30.840 --> 02:00:33.340 right and this is the way that we start to tell 02:00:33.340 --> 02:00:36.119 to show individuals that if you take care of 02:00:36.119 --> 02:00:38.020 us if you start to have knowledge on a lot of 02:00:38.020 --> 02:00:41.300 this information um and you're able to apply 02:00:41.300 --> 02:00:45.180 it in in your own world in your own life on your 02:00:45.180 --> 02:00:48.149 job and your personal lives etc this will start 02:00:48.149 --> 02:00:51.909 reducing the likelihood of crisis, right? And 02:00:51.909 --> 02:00:54.529 when you reduce the likelihood of crisis, right, 02:00:54.590 --> 02:00:56.229 you're getting ahead of everything. We're doing 02:00:56.229 --> 02:01:00.710 a proactive approach. Then you start reducing 02:01:00.710 --> 02:01:04.710 suicidal ideation. And so that's really what 02:01:04.710 --> 02:01:06.949 I've been going around the country doing with 02:01:06.949 --> 02:01:09.369 different agencies. I was just in Denver last 02:01:09.369 --> 02:01:13.270 week. It was an amazing outcome. I've done tons 02:01:13.270 --> 02:01:15.529 of stuff here in the state. Next week, I'll be... 02:01:16.560 --> 02:01:21.260 about an hour away from Chicago, downstate. And 02:01:21.260 --> 02:01:24.399 it's really just presenting to different agencies. 02:01:24.579 --> 02:01:26.680 The reason I started the not -for -profit is 02:01:26.680 --> 02:01:29.159 that unfortunately, a lot of our agencies across 02:01:29.159 --> 02:01:31.979 the country, there's a budget, finances are an 02:01:31.979 --> 02:01:35.699 issue. They really focus on getting us the training 02:01:35.699 --> 02:01:38.199 that is mandated by the state and that we absolutely 02:01:38.199 --> 02:01:41.079 have to get done. And that's really a lot of 02:01:41.079 --> 02:01:43.239 like our policy and all of that. But when it 02:01:43.239 --> 02:01:45.779 comes to doing trainings like this and stuff 02:01:45.779 --> 02:01:49.460 that's for us ourselves for our own self -care 02:01:49.460 --> 02:01:52.800 right it's kind of like oh we don't have any 02:01:52.800 --> 02:01:54.619 funding for that anymore you know we don't we've 02:01:54.619 --> 02:01:56.340 run we've run out we don't have it it's not in 02:01:56.340 --> 02:02:01.560 the budget so a resilient heroes not profit is 02:02:01.560 --> 02:02:05.699 to really be able to get this um information 02:02:05.699 --> 02:02:08.119 the psychoeducation training out to agencies 02:02:08.119 --> 02:02:11.260 regardless of budget finance issues like they 02:02:11.260 --> 02:02:13.659 don't have to pay for it I started a not for 02:02:13.659 --> 02:02:16.500 profit so that through grants, donations, fundraising, 02:02:16.840 --> 02:02:22.220 we can get this these tools that we need to get 02:02:22.220 --> 02:02:24.640 out to our first responders. And then now we 02:02:24.640 --> 02:02:28.460 don't have an excuse. It is a data driven analysis 02:02:28.460 --> 02:02:34.840 like curriculum. So really, it's like I tell 02:02:34.840 --> 02:02:37.439 leadership and different agencies, if you really 02:02:37.439 --> 02:02:39.800 do care about the suicide issue and the trauma 02:02:39.800 --> 02:02:43.010 issue of your agencies. with your members um 02:02:43.010 --> 02:02:46.069 and so now if money is not an issue and you really 02:02:46.069 --> 02:02:50.729 do care then what's the excuse now so yeah resilient 02:02:50.729 --> 02:02:55.390 heroes um if anyone is interested in in helping 02:02:55.390 --> 02:02:58.310 us um with this mission you can go to the website 02:02:58.310 --> 02:03:03.850 www .resilient -heroes .com um all the information 02:03:03.850 --> 02:03:07.289 is there you can we i constantly put out a weekly 02:03:07.289 --> 02:03:09.829 newsletter let people know what we're doing what's 02:03:09.829 --> 02:03:12.090 happening a lot of discussion around all of this 02:03:12.090 --> 02:03:14.670 work um i send that out to people so you can 02:03:14.670 --> 02:03:17.949 do you can absolutely subscribe and you can make 02:03:17.949 --> 02:03:21.090 a donation if you in some way or another want 02:03:21.090 --> 02:03:25.529 to help with this mission fantastic Well, Liz, 02:03:25.630 --> 02:03:27.189 I want to thank you so much. I mean, it's been 02:03:27.189 --> 02:03:30.369 such a unique perspective with you having a full 02:03:30.369 --> 02:03:32.510 career in law enforcement and the psychology 02:03:32.510 --> 02:03:36.279 side. the kind of, you know, the autopsy element 02:03:36.279 --> 02:03:38.380 to all these suicides. I mean, it's a completely 02:03:38.380 --> 02:03:40.420 different conversation I've had with anyone else. 02:03:40.539 --> 02:03:42.720 So, and then on top of that, obviously what you're 02:03:42.720 --> 02:03:45.619 doing for the nonprofit, it's so endearing, so 02:03:45.619 --> 02:03:47.920 many people that already serve that then go above 02:03:47.920 --> 02:03:50.979 and beyond and serve, you know, yet again. So 02:03:50.979 --> 02:03:53.520 I want to thank you so, so much for being so 02:03:53.520 --> 02:03:55.539 generous with your time and coming on the Behind 02:03:55.539 --> 02:03:58.529 the Shield podcast today. Thank you. Thank you 02:03:58.529 --> 02:04:00.310 so much. Thank you for all the work that you 02:04:00.310 --> 02:04:02.470 do for putting so much information out on so 02:04:02.470 --> 02:04:05.430 many different amazing topics. I appreciate you. 02:04:06.069 --> 02:04:07.550 And please be safe.