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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you
think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome
to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,
my name is James Gearing and this week it is
my absolute honor to welcome on the show Alistair
McGregor and Josh Williams. Now Alistair came
through the world of psychology and Josh is a
former first responder who then became a corrections
officer. Now the paths of these two men crossed
in the world of mental health when Alistair brought
his stealth program which uses Lego serious play
to open the door of communication in groups of
incarcerated men and women, and also prison officers
themselves. So we discuss a host of topics, from
their journeys into their respected professions,
the world of mental health in uniform, childhood
trauma in our incarcerated population, post -traumatic
growth, opening the doors of communication, and
so much more. Now, before we get to this incredible
conversation, as I say every week, please just
take a moment, go to whichever app you listen
to this on, subscribe to the show, leave feedback
and leave a rating. Every single five -star rating
truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making
it easier for others to find. And this is a free
library of well over 1 ,000 episodes now. So
all I ask in return is that you help share these
incredible men and women's stories so I can get
them to every single person on planet Earth who
needs to hear them. So with that being said,
I introduce to you Alistair McGregor. and Josh
Williams. Enjoy. Well, Al and Josh, I want to
start by saying thank you so much for taking
the time and coming on the Behind the Shield
podcast today. anytime anytime buddy pleasure
to be here all right well very first question
i'll start with you al where on planet earth
are we finding you today uh nottingham yeah i
know how you roll james i've seen your stuff
um yeah yeah i'm in nottingham so robin hood
like sheriff of nottingham kind of uh areas coming
from scotland so yeah today so a bit but all
good I used to work for Center Parks. I know
they've got one of them in Nottingham Forest,
I think. So, yeah. Never saw Robin when I was
there, though. It's because it's me. That's it.
I'm Robin Hood, man. It's on. But, yeah. Did
you ever see the Kevin Costner one that made
Mariah in Nottingham Forest? Yeah. I got no words.
I got no words. All right. Well, Josh, same question.
Where on planet Earth today? Opposite end of
the UK from our pretty much southwest UK county
called Dorset. That's where you'll find me enjoying
the rain. Brilliant. Well, you're from my neck
of woods. I grew up just outside Bath as we were
talking before. So I'm a West Country boy myself.
All right. Well, let's start today with Josh
then for the moment. Start at the very beginning
of your story then. So tell me where you were
born. Tell me a little bit about your family
dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings.
So I was born in Somerset, West Country, Southwest
UK again. Family dynamic, so parents separated,
dad in construction, mother doing... Sort of
like administrative roles. And I've got two sisters,
both in education. What about sports? What were
you playing and doing when you were in school
age? School age, I wasn't much of a sports enthusiast.
However, since getting on a bit, I played a bit
of rugby around. like locally that's mainly through
the prison actually we set up a team for the
prison that I work in where we go off and play
local teams just as a kind of more of a well
-being bit of fun not in a necessarily overly
competitive way so that's I tell a lie actually
a tug of war believe it or not for quite a large
period of my youth I completely forgot that actually
I can't believe I forgot that because that took
up the majority of my life from the age of like
14 up until about 18 going around the UK competing
in tug of war really were you a big kid then
no I was I'd say about about average probably
a little bit heavier not as heavy as I am now
but it's believe it or not it's not all about
being the biggest you know, you've got a set
weight limit for your whole team. So it's not
like you can't have everyone weigh in massive
amounts because otherwise you don't fit enough
people in. That was me. What did you do as far
as strength and conditioning to prepare for the
sport of tug of war? I'll be honest. It wasn't,
there wasn't anything too technical to it. We
did a lot of, a lot of running. believe it or
not because the amount of sort of strain it puts
on your body when you're doing it you need to
be able to kind of maintain that for a bit um
but we actually had kind of a basic setup in
a local park um we swung a pulley system up into
a tree and had a big bin filled with concrete
and attached a rope to the pulley system so we're
literally just pulling the rope to lift the concrete
block up into the tree and put it back down again
and that was twice a week about hour and a half
a time every week for a number of years and we're
going to get in a little bit to your work as
a firefighter and ultimately in corrections when
uh when you think of the fire service sometimes
the strongman events are popular and you every
so often you'll see a fire engine pull where
people will actually be using a rope to pull
some sort of vehicle did you ever end up doing
anything like that uh no i think the the closest
i got was um our coach's van we uh dragged that
around the field a couple of times um which in
in comparison to some of these bigger people
doing the fire engine pulls at our age our experience
you know we'll take that as a win absolutely
we're quite quite pleased with that little combi
band being dragged around All right. We'll jump
to Al then. So tell me where you were born. Tell
me a little bit about your family dynamic, what
your parents did, how many siblings. Sure. Yeah.
So kind of coming from, it's ironic actually,
like, you know, representing Birmingham on this
t -shirt as you were talking, I was like, yeah,
okay. So yeah, grew up in Birmingham. Amazing.
My dad was a head teacher of an inner city ghetto
school. And it kind of, that's where it kind
of. I guess the positive psychology stuff. I
think, James, you said incurable optimist. Is
that right? Was that what you said when we were
talking the other day? Incurable, angry optimist.
Absolutely, absolutely. Weaponized, weaponized
optimism. And yeah, he kind of set me going on
this track. But yeah, loved education and kids.
So that was awesome. And then mum was a sister
in casualty. and was mega ill for a long time.
She became super ill when I was 11. So I don't
remember her well, really. And that as well had
a massive impact. And yeah, I kind of grew up
in Broome and loved it and then became a teacher
and just took off, I think, and kind of then
have been basically posh homeless. Since then,
you know, flogging my wares for Lego. So, yeah.
but good. It's been good. And fitness, you say
about fitness, fitness and sport. And I played
rugby quite a lot and like quite a big fella
at like six, five. And, but also was like, I
would say rockstar. I think people would maybe
like question that. And no, I'm also a rockstar,
but love playing guitar and saw a friend on a
scrim went down and the studs broke his hand.
And he was a bass player and he never played
bass again. And I was like, could I just get
the beer without the pain? Like, is that all
right? Can we do that? And I chose that route,
but have come back to fitness and sport, like,
recently, you know, like, loads. You know, and
I think becoming kind of job fit, inverted commas,
I think, like, being around prison officers so
much, I'm like, I've got to up my game. Like,
I think this time last year was two stone overweight
and... was kind of resisted it i was like you
know i don't want no i'm not doing it no i'm
not eating all this stuff and go to the gym at
4 a .m no i'm not james greening like obviously
right okay um and and then i've started and like
the past i spent the past year really and like
i'm the fittest i've ever been and the happiest
i've been and it is it's all true like just get
up and do it you know but i think it was it's
people like josh like working with them and my
energy would drop You know, it's very intense
what we do, this kind of subconscious exorcism
with Lego. And I just was losing energy. It was
energy for me. It wasn't, you know, and then
now as I've gotten closer and closer and it's,
you know, prisons to me are the abyss. I think,
you know, disrespect them at your peril, you
know, and they're different, you know, and I've
done some police shifts, I've done that stuff,
but I was like, I've got to be fitter. Like I've
got to get fitter. So just, just boring weights.
Waits and listening to your podcast. No jokes.
It's not even a plug. I'm like, I got bored with
music. You know, I was like in the same music.
I was like, well, how can I get James's dulcet
tones or in the morning? So, um, so yeah, but
yeah, there you go. Brilliant. Well, I want to
go back to, I mean, you both, your parents had
a pretty unique view. Your mother, obviously
on the health side of the British public, but
then your father. with one of the schools in
the roughest area, when you reflect now, I don't
know if you've had these conversations with him,
what was some of the underlying common denominators
that contributed to some of the struggles that
these kids had when he was teaching? Brilliant
question. And super simple answer. I think lack
of confidence, lack of understanding their own
psychology. They didn't know what they were good
at. I think you can go through the whole of school.
And someone goes, what are you good at? And they
go, I got an A. And that's not a question. What
are you good at? Like, and worse than that, I
think kids leave with, and I'm going to generalize
massively, I'm a huge fan of education and teachers
are heroes, good teachers are heroes. And people,
it can brand you with thinking you're stupid.
Like when, and you just punch out of education,
like, and it's, yeah, what? colossal impact um
and then underneath that what we're finding now
which is um reading and writing and even even
you know if you learn to academically write you
know like if that would be great you know like
fantastic and but i think really reading in particular
but being able to communicate and then being
able to listen and you know not just listen to
a teacher but able to really listen i think a
lot of people and you know are waiting to speak
you know and kind of i think it's something and
it is you know credit where it's due and zero
bs to you james you know you you there are podcast
people who are just wait to speak and you do
listen and you know because it's knackering if
you're really listening to someone you should
be exhausted you know um so but yeah no dad was
also that is awesome you know still here um but
yeah and his view on education was was incredibly
powerful and just just you know poor kids aren't
stupid, you know, like, you know, kids in poverty
aren't stupid. Like it's, we can do better. And,
you know, coming up against, it was quite a kind
of privileged middle -class kid. And then when
I kind of started working with kids in real,
you know, who were kind of, one kid called David
at 11, you know, was eating pet food because
his mum was, the stuff you see, you know, the
stuff that you pick up the other end. But yeah,
and it's normal. And the black collar with, you
know. and the smell and you know and they're
doing it you know he's getting up and coming
in for free breakfast at 5 a .m after he's picked
his mum up who's you know got a needle hanging
out of her and done his homework in the morning
you know and then come to school and you know
and then gets in a bit of trouble and you're
like oh he's a delinquent child like hang on
a second just let's just let's just wind this
back a little bit um so so yeah yeah i think
it's it's so important and we'll go to josh to
get his perspective in a second but this is Not
plugging my book, but this is what this latest
book is about. It's the generational trauma.
It's the environment that not only that child
grew up in, but the parents grew up in and the
grandparents grew up and you see this domino
effect. And what, you know, I think all of us
have different perspectives on is that we don't
see the BBC News or CNN or Fox reporting on,
you know, this air quotes scumbag did this thing.
you actually get to see, okay, well, what was
the environment this person grew up in? Did they
have mentors? Because, I mean, I've had lots
of people that had very, very checkered backgrounds
and ended up becoming physicians or Navy SEALs
or whatever it was. But there's a common denominator.
Some form of positive mentors found their way
into their life and helped them turn a corner.
But if you're growing up in, insert, you know,
struggling area X, where it's drug slinging and
violence and gang culture, I've seen it, you
know, I mean, not that much in England because
I was a West country and then North London, but
obviously a lot here. I've scraped them off the
floor. I've pulled sheets over their heads. You
see those homes exactly like you're talking about.
Escalate on the front drive, nothing in the fridge
and the kids are filthy. And you're like, that
kid is doomed unless the right person or right
people start coming into their life. And so understanding
that we were all once giggling little newborns.
All of us, every single one. We were all preschoolers
that found joy chasing balls and watching butterflies.
And then life happens and then you start to unravel.
So what I love, for example, in Finland, the
schools that are struggling, they actually pour
more money and support into those areas because
they understand that the school is probably going
to have to take some of the slack from what's
not happening in the homes. What we have here
is the schools that are struggling are penalized.
And their money is taken away from them. So it
couldn't be more opposite of what we should be
doing. Yeah, couldn't agree more. I think there's
a bigger question in there. And it's just one
big book plug, isn't it, Joe? But yeah, I wrote
a book called Demanufactured back when I was
a kind of teenage mutant ninja teacher thinking
I knew. Ridiculous. It's embarrassing. But, you
know, when it was against, and it's one of my
tattoos for Noam Chomsky and stuff, saying about,
you know, school's a manufacturing process, isn't
it? It's like, you know, you kind of, kids enter
and you're going to be manufactured into something,
you know, it was called demanufactured. And what
does it, how would, like you said, it's a system
thing. You know, it's like, like I watched Josh,
you watch Josh work and he walks through the
prison. And, you know, and I watch people's positive
interactions, you know, like these little bombs
that are going off, positivity bombs, just doof,
doof, doof, doof, doof, doof, doof, doof, doof.
And they're everywhere, you know, like, and,
you know, most of them are on your podcast, James,
you know, like it's people who, whether it's
military or police or kind of whatever, who,
you know, have that optimism and stigmatized.
And it's interesting, isn't it? You know, as,
as three blokes, you know, and me and you, James,
we put in the words weaponized and angry. Because
it's, it's not a thing. We're not, you don't,
you don't say that as a guy. That's not, that's,
you know, you need to be tough. You need to be
like, it's like, actually to me, absolutely.
What's really tough is you can be a light in
the dark for someone. And, you know, I am nothing
compared to you two and have, you know, what
you guys can do and have done, you know, and,
you know, and the way we treat people who are.
being lights in the dark in such such abysses
like whether it's a home with needles and you
know that smell just the smell of like real poverty
and real abuse you know like you and you know
you walk in you can smell there's been sexual
abuse it's just disgusting and yeah you're right
you know and if you can go in there and it's
it's a great lead into kind of this and lego
and stuff like i do not give an f like what people
think and like yeah playing with lego or whatever
it's like watch watch it work just watch that
work, the grounds of optimism and stuff, you
know, and if, if you can't communicate and get
to a child, it's a waste of time. You know, if
it doesn't, if it, you know, every piece of firefighter
equipment, every, you know, just what you're
saying, Parvo, it was Parvo, wasn't it, the spray?
Yeah. Is that right? Yeah. Every piece of equipment,
yeah, great. If it doesn't, if it's not, if it
doesn't work at the, you know, with the right
person at the right time with the right stuff,
you've wasted time. Do you know, like, you know,
I tried hard, then why won't you try? Like, does
it work? Does it work and does it last? you know
and i think if um more of the education system
just was like right look is it working is it
lasting well no and no well okay well let's do
something like rapid rapidly do something so
yeah agree beautiful well josh this excuse me
this lens that you have now working in the world
of corrections That same question, origin stories.
Now, a lot of these kids that are behind bars,
you know, they're a little bit older. They've
been deeper into whatever led them down the opposite
side of the criminal line. What do you see, again,
as far as origin stories of them when they were
young, if they're able to tell the story? I think
you're right with like positive mentors and stuff
like that. A lot of people that we do see did
have that absent in their youth. you know we
see sort of multi -generational families in prison
you know he's in jail and his dad's also in jail
or you know his mum or or you know they're for
some of them it's all they know because it's
all they've lived with particularly in their
youth as well and they i don't think they really
had that support there to kind of guide them
down that right path you know they they weren't
shown how to do something the right way they
might have only been shown how to do it the wrong
way you know so i i think it's positive role
models as you were saying are massively massively
important important with excuse me i lost my
word with preventing people ending up in situations
where they end up in prisons, where they end
up involved with the gangs and the crime and
stuff like that. So, yeah, definitely getting
some more positivity in youth as well, because
I talk like I'm 100 years old when I say it,
but I feel like the youth of today is vastly
different from when I was young, and that wasn't
even really that long ago. So, you know, it's,
I think... Like you said, getting into schools
now especially, give them more money, get the
positivity in there, get the support in there,
let people work out what they're... Because we've
seen people come through the system who, again,
you say, right, what are you good at, that question,
and they go, well, I don't really know. But at
the same time, you can sit there and watch them
draw a picture and they're actually a fantastic
artist or they can make things and they can do
all these things, but they don't know how to
apply it into... normal everyday life so for
them it's this absolute gold mine skill that
sadly they just can't can't use for any benefit
um so yeah then james can i jump please please
okay 100 right so kind of you know linking this
together a bit so kind of um and dad would do
briefings right okay because i got to work in
his school before he sat me which is brilliant
okay like amazing he's like you're too close
and you know you're my son and we can't do this
which is hugely hilarious he used to do briefings
on a monday morning and his thing was like i
want my teachers laughing and i was like i want
them laughing at half past eight so when they
spill out into the school these kids meet a smiling
positive teacher so i don't care no result no
like how to start there we'll do we'll get the
tough stuff done as well i said start positive
and just i was like this is crackers and i thought
all schools were like this i was like 19 you
know kind of 20 looking at this um and i think
it's the same you know i'm seeing the same thing
in prisons and stuff of like what are you good
at like where do you even start um and there's
kind of two points one about you know the allure
of the darkness because yes optimism but people
cannot help but be drawn to the dark why are
we watching documentaries on prisons why are
we here why are we all here you know like what's
what's cool it's cool and then you kind of like
you hook someone in and before you know it then
and um the quote that and i heard it from a guy
in florida called doug monday like massive shout
out he's on my linkedin somewhere and he goes
around do you know what i'm talking about yeah
yeah yeah no we've been on each other's podcast
he's an amazing guy right okay okay fantastic
yeah so like swap team dude right and he came
to north carolina and and ended up on my previous
businesses course and i got in he was doing an
intro and got him to do a little talk bit and
the first slide he put up which he probably talked
about and now i'm embarrassed i haven't seen
the podcast but whatever didn't do my homework
and now it was super old so no you're forgiven
it's buried way back there Okay, so good. And
you're like 64, so it's fine. I think it's a
need to quote and get this right out because
it's live. He or she who fights with monsters,
you know, beware in that, you know, for as long
as you gaze into the abyss, the abyss begins
to gaze back into you. I was like I don't know
who you are but we're getting married like that
is that is exactly it so you're talking about
the kind of generational trauma stuff whatever
and I think it's the the power of the positive
it's the dark that defines the light you know
like a match is so bright if if the room is black
but if it's in the sun you don't even see it
and I think it's that being a light in the dark
everyone can it's great you know it's all good
but it's going well you know which is why i think
what both of you guys do is incredible you know
but i think there's there's attraction in that
there's attraction you know we're called stealth
in a company called stuff and then we've got
yeah and then whatever it's not nice fluffy lego
bricks save lives you know like and i think it's
and i think coming from that broadening build
thing of like bad is always going to win it's
three to one it's always we're never going to
win this you know like we're going to die we're
all way out you know rapidly going towards our
death date, you know, like, and declining. So
like, what's the point? You know, all that kind
of stuff. But I think we can use the dark. And
I think it's kind of a lot of the psychology
and the positive psychology behind where stealth
came from. And, you know, we wanted to make a
de -escalation tool that was bulletproof, you
know, that we could go into any dark situation.
And wasn't a psychological tool, you know, it
was a kind of, it was a communication tool and
it was used in the subconscious and how would
this work? And, but we can't deny the dark. I
think this thing, we're so scared. I think the
psychological community with so much respect
to them, we're so scared of making a mistake
of, you know, we're going to, we're going to
tweak something. Someone's going to die or like,
we're going to help a prisoner and then the prison
is going to kill themselves. Yeah, they are.
And if you do nothing, it's going to be a million
times worse. omelette and eggs here is like where
are the people who are trying to do something
who are kind of taking that and being brave enough
to go into the dark and kind of whatever and
the answer is either the abyss will swallow them
up whole you know and they will start drinking
or losing themselves or they'll lose their you
know capacity and or they'll be hit with so much
red tape you know and i mean you are you are
literally the poster child for that you're trying
to do something and just nope nope nope nope
um And then that goes on a macro kind of sociological
level to money and power, isn't it? You know,
it's like, I'm going to make the education system
like I was at Oxford. No, I wasn't at Oxford,
but you know, whatever. And it's going to be,
you know, G to C, A, it's not even that, it's
one to nine, but you know, you will study Shakespeare
and you will do this and you will do that. And
I'm like, okay, not knocking Shakespeare, but
I'm like, come on, come on, come on, come on.
So yeah. Brilliant. Yeah. It's funny when you
talk about Shakespeare, I saw a speech the other
day and it was, you know, why, why is he such
a well -known author? And they were saying that
when we were colonizing most of the world and
then teaching them English, that was on the required
text. So the whole thing was, is Shakespeare
actually that good? Or was he just thrust upon
everyone and we were told he is important, study
him. I was like, huh. I never really resonated
with it personally. So, but yeah, I mean, you
know, how much literature from around the world
is really woven into, at least in my generation,
I went to school in the 80s in England. I don't
remember there being a lot of kind of international
literature. So even within education itself,
it's kind of a very narrow field that we're taught.
Absolutely. And I think you can bring it right
around to prisons. You know, Josh, I'm like,
I'm really interested in what your take is on
this. But like, I think it's a very common thing.
And I'm going to, you know, I'm scared to assume
or generalize. I'm going to throw it out there,
Josh, and tell me I'm wrong. All right. But like,
you know, I wasn't very good at school, meaning.
I didn't get Shakespeare and I couldn't do maths.
Hang on, hang on, you know, and the damage done
from that work, I must be thick. So I will commit
crime, you know, or I've got to eat or I live
in one of those houses and it stinks and I have
to get food. Or if I don't get any money, my
mum's going to get beaten up or raped or whatever.
So it's, so whose fault is it? You know, and
then at the other end, when there's kind of the
prisoners come out. well they're scum or they're
this that the other or they've you know they're
terrible people or kind of you're like well hang
on we're all in prison all of us are in prison
and the more I see the more I'm kind of getting
this I'm like you know it might be a relationship
it might be you know you are the wife of someone
who's controlling you it might be drink it might
be you know whatever and we're so quick to judge
be like And I was. I was an arsehole. And even,
you know, about 15 years ago, I kind of made
the turn and started becoming a semi -decent
dude. But, like, yeah, we are. We're set up to
judge on which quick hits, quick Insta hits of,
like, oh, there you are at this. Or, you know,
social media, you are at this. Or you're firefighters.
Oh, yeah, well, they're all lazy water fairies.
I mean, that one's true. Let's just go with that.
But, yeah. And then what grinds my gears the
most and, you know, the reason why, you know.
And Josh was so brave to kind of come and do
this. And why are prison officers continually
getting a kick in? Like, continually. And I'm
like, do it for a day. We said this, didn't we,
when we were walking out of prison? Do it for
a day. Just one. You know, or come on the fire
truck. Just one. Just one. Take one dead body.
Just one. In fact, you know, no blood. Just one.
Just one. And then when you wake up at three
in the morning in a cold sweat, because it's
merged into your psyche, And you can't unsee
what you saw in the abyss. And you did one day.
Then you can judge, you know, even one day, then
judge. But, you know, I think this capacity to
people who kind of fight with monsters, work
with monsters, you know, and in the prison system
and correction system, you know, are so quick
to judge. You know, and, you know, I think it
was a different prison, Loudoun Grange, which
I must, James, if I forget, I have to give a
shout out to Loudoun Grange or they will rip
me a new one, right? Great prison. And we're
talking about good murderers, like a really interesting
concept of like kind of what's going on there,
good murderers. And I was like, what? Murdering's
really bad, really? Because the military get
paid for it, you know, and they get medals for
killing people. And then there's one guy in particular
who, you know, obviously won't say his name or
give the kind of details, too many details. But,
you know, there was this guy outside his house
and he was terrorizing his kids for months, months
and months and months and months and months and
months and months. And he used the police and
he tried to get everything. And then one day
he was like, I'm just going to batter this guy.
And did. Didn't mean to kill him. And he died.
And now he's in. And now he's happily. He's like,
I killed someone and I'm paying for it and I'm
sorry. And I'd do it again because I was protecting
my children. How do you... Yeah, you did it.
But then, you know, you walk in his cell and
it's full of examples of where he's become a
Samaritan's listener and he's helping people
and he's on a particular wing. that is now having
you know legacy was playing stealth rolled out
across the whole wing and he's like i'm gonna
lead this and i'm gonna not only come out a better
person i'm gonna help every single person who
struggles in this cell with lego and it sounds
like it's not meant as a plug and stuff but like
this as opposed to you know a bad murder you
know and what is okay so what's a bad murder
is that someone who premeditately goes off and
kind of um you know, we've just hired someone
and she's, you know, works in a female prison.
And, you know, it was kind of described to me
as a zoo. And I was like, I think the male prison
is a zoo. I think a female prison is Jurassic
Park. There's something really scary about that.
Like something about kind of like, and I'm nervous.
I think she is nails and she knows who she is.
I'm watching this for like, that's hard. That's
a hard person. You know, the mother and baby
unit. on a baby that's born in a prison, you
know, we're talking about, you know, and yeah,
and this is, and I come back to it, you know,
Josh, to me, I mean, talking about my dad, like
I used to call my dad a hero. He still is. I
mean, he's off, you know, having loads of fun
now because he's retired, but Josh is my hero.
I say as it is. And I think we kind of struggle
to talk positively. And, you know, I'm sure many
men watching this, everybody were like, well,
this is getting a bit weird, like whatever. And
this thing of like, we only say that kind of
stuff when someone dies. And just I'm just not
having it. You know, it's like, you know, well,
you know, Josh was my hero. But since he got
stabbed in the neck, you know, and had a kind
of bunch of hot oil poured over him because he
made one mistake in a prisoner and the prisoner
had a thing against white men and was off his
face on spice. And, you know, Josh, his face
melted off. But, you know, he was my hero. I'm
saying it now. Like, yeah, I've seen it and I've
watched him. And I think we kind of were so bad.
The Americans are way better at this from what
I've seen. at just saying the positive but without
getting weird about it you know being able to
be concise and detailed and say it you know and
so like josh you know i'm just gonna do it whether
so you're gonna blush but nobody's watching man
so it's not like it's being recorded um and you
know this and this to me is like why i'm so passionate
about psychology in the dark i don't want to
i don't you know and you know okay we'll go we'll
start at the beginning right okay so like you
know i think you know we say are you all right
yeah everyone all right yeah james you're right
yeah yeah are you yeah yeah you know not so bad
i'm good but even in the states you know how
you do it yeah i'm good yeah i'm good i'm good
that's zero right and think you know and then
something happens a suicide happens or we get
upset or you know whatever drop to minus one
minus five minus ten yeah say minus ten is actually
killing yourself all the therapy all the psychology
all everything that's been made is designed to
get you back to nought I don't want to live my
life at naught, for starters, but this light
in the dark thing, what does it look like at
plus one? What does that look like? And plus
five. And if you're at plus five and you take
a hit like a suicide, maybe if we could aim to
be at maybe plus three, between zero to plus
three to kind of minus one, then when you take
the hit, you're going to be coming back up. to
that rather than trying to hit, just hit nought
and, you know, not happening. And yeah. And so
we've been doing this bit of this on the course
and saying, if you're going to do something called
a reflective best self. So if I'm going to praise
Josh, I'd be like, Josh, thanks very much for
giving up your Friday evening because that's
what it is here. Valuable pub time, you know,
with the one that you love, you know, to talk
to this clown in the US and, you know, me about
work on your day off to make it happen. okay
well that's pretty good and cool you know but
even then it's bland it's a bit craft it's you
know yeah thanks al for embarrassing me in public
yeah appreciate it um and then we do this and
i say you know and i'd write it as well because
he's not going to remember it and josh i know
he's going to talk a little bit about when he
plays with lego without um and we go into the
subconscious and he basically it's some houdini
thing and he doesn't know where he is anymore
which is good um but as opposed to this dear
josh The fact that you are willing to go on record
when the prison service is on its knees and prison
officers are killing themselves to back what
I've done and done with Lego, I'm not crying,
means the absolute world. And when we sat there
on Wednesday... And I shared with you how exhausted
I am and how much I'm struggling. And you said
what you said and your colleague said what he
said with his multiple children. I was so close
to giving up after what happened, you know, and
the kind of stretching and kind of what happened.
And I don't know how you go in every day with
the threat of that. And then to find out that
then, you know, the pressures of all the other
stuff that happens. You've given me enough mojo
to keep going. And I respect what you do. And
if you're not a hero and the kids aren't looking
at people like you and James, and you too, James,
right? So who are they looking at? A rap artist?
Someone who's glamorised violence? Or an Instagram
star? Or something pornographic, borderline pornographic?
And I saw the cup of hidden heroes and that stuff.
I said, and I don't think they should be hidden.
And, you know, full circle to education. Why
are we not having people like you two and holding
you up as role models? Not the best, because
you're both clowns. And we'll just bring this
down, because it's getting a little bit tense
and emotional here. Why are we not holding that
up to David, who's eating cat food and saying,
I want to be that. Like, I want to be a prison
officer. Like, I want to do that. I want to save
somebody's life. Or I want to be a James. I want
to be fighting the system as hard as I can and
doing it and potentially sacrificing my life
for that. So that's why you're my hero. Standard.
So don't die, right? Yeah, don't get stabbed
in the neck and covered in oil, Josh. Yeah, that
wasn't me. No, no. It's napalm. Have I got that
right, Josh? It's napalm, isn't it? Like where
they kind of put hot oil in. It happened in Belmarsh
recently. They put hot oil in and they burned
it and then came behind and just... melted somebody's
face off like yeah but you know just an everyday
work yeah cool yeah cool same time tomorrow well
josh let's kind of walk you through because you
we before we hit record you mentioned that you
were a uh on -call firefighter so walk me through
volunteering or being in that role excuse me
as a firefighter and then how a call actually
led you to doing the the corrections road so
i When I was in college, I studied over here.
We have, of course, uniformed public services.
So it's all about this for people who want to
join your police, fire, ambulance, military,
stuff like that. And by chance, I never actually
finished the course because the job advert for
being an on -call firefighter came out. So I
applied and I got it. I literally got it at the
age of just coming towards the end of my 18th
year. of being alive so I was literally just
as as young as you could be to get in really
um so I kind of thought to myself you know do
I take this opportunity career of a lifetime
or a doorway to a career of a lifetime or do
I stick up my core so I abandoned college about
abandoned college abandoned ship there joined
the retained loved it brilliant brilliant job
obviously being on call I worked in a I just
did factory work alongside that they were really
good they used to let me respond Fantastic job
that I'd recommend to anyone. Absolutely brilliant.
And then, so as part of the prison I work at,
as part of their contingency, you'll get like
a regular like risk visit from the local fire
services, just so they can familiarize themselves
with the site. So if there was a big incident,
they know where they're going. It's not the first
time they stepped foot through the gate sort
of thing. And I came up, we had a tour and a
walk around and they said, you know, we're hiring.
And I thought, Probably give it a go. That was
the extent of it. I never considered it as a
career. And I think that's partly because you
rarely see prisons or back then, particularly
when I joined, you rarely see prisons in the
media much, particularly as a as a job opportunity.
There's normally something negative on the news
about them. And yes, I applied, went through
the process, got in and slowly clawed my way
up through the role. But I really enjoy it. I
love my job. I think it's brilliant. I know a
lot of people say it in a lot of different roles,
but no two days really are the same. No two conversations
are the same. I'm talking to people who have
experienced lives that I could not even fathom.
And we've spoke about backgrounds and upbringing
and things like that, the things that they've
seen. the things that they've had to do at young
ages, the things that they've been exposed to.
And yeah, it's just, it's brilliant. I love it.
And I think that's where like Al's tool and the
things that he's developed are really, really
kind of key and important for what we're trying
to achieve because they give a different medium
to talk. Like everyone, everyone knows we should
talk. If you, if you know, if you say to someone,
you know, you should open up and talk about that.
They go, yeah, I know. But having. options for
how they deliver that talk isn't really there
in some cases. So I think with what we've got
here, it's brilliant. It's a physical medium
in front of them that they can just put together
piece by piece and then have a whole conversation
with it without actually having to say a right
lot. I've probably gone off on a bit of a tangent
from the question that you asked there, but I
just started rolling with it. Yeah, no, that
was great. That was great. When you first walked
through the door, you've been doing the retained
firefighter role. What was some of the myths
that were debunked in your mind when you actually
started working in the corrections side? So,
I mean, from when I first started the job, the
fact that everyone doesn't wear an orange jumpsuit
is probably the big one because you see that
in all the TV shows and the films and stuff like
that. Obviously, we don't have that. We don't
have that in our prisons. So it was that. It
was kind of really the understanding of what
a... prison officers required to do and when
you start and you go through your training they
talk about how you're you're going to have to
be a firefighter you're going to have to be a
mental health support worker you're going to
have to be to some people that i work with i
work with some fantastic people who literally
are almost like parents to these people you know
like i work with people who have got all this
life experience and Sometimes they talk to some
of them like they're their kids, but they respond
to it really well because it's a sort of dynamic
in a relationship they've never really had. And
it's really, really nice to see. But you pick
up, you wear so many different hats in a day
just to get through the day. Just, I mean, like
I'm dependent on the population of prison you
work in. Ours is around 500. Like potentially
I could have a conversation with all 500 of these
people in a day. just by walking around and going
about my business and doing my job, saying the
hellos, saying the how are yous, checking in
on them, catching up with them, how's it going
with this, that. Compared to when you first started,
have you seen an upswing or a downswing as far
as the way things are going for your profession
and or the recidivism side? And if it's a downstream,
what are some of the frustrations as a career
-wide field that you and your men and women are
kind of struggling with at the moment? I think
that it's hard not to see a sort of downward
trajectory for recidivism, mainly because in
the media at the moment where they're talking
a lot about prison population and spaces, the
prisons are vastly getting overcrowded now. obviously
trying to do what we can as a service and the
government are obviously trying to reduce that
as best they can with whatever they come up with
with their ideas but it's hard I think it's it's
quite hard to kind of look at it and comment
on that specifically because there's just so
much that kind of factors into it and there's
so many different I mean it's not it's not just
a case of looking at prisons it's a case of looking
at probation it's a case of looking at we've
already spoke about education it's all this and
all that it's like you're trying to stop a leaking
bucket but there's so many different avenues
it's leaking from And you don't have enough.
I don't know if you'd agree with that, Al, but
you know what I mean? It's not just a case of
looking at like our prisons working. It's a case
of looking at everything as a whole. Are we doing
the best that we can to reduce the rates that
people are coming to prison, to reduce the rates
people are offended? What impact is that having
on your men and women, though? Because, I mean,
this is the same as over here. So our first responders
are being run into the ground. Let's take the
fire and EMS. We do all the medical calls. They're
working more and more and more. And again, kind
of alluding to what you said, I mean, there's
a lot in the backstory. We have an environment
where people are moving less and less. They're
stuck to their phones. The food that we serve
in schools is absolute dog shit. They're getting
rid of PE. I mean, all these contributing factors
that are making Americans fatter and fatter and
sicker and sicker, which then. The first responders
and then the hospitals are the ones who are drowning.
And then, you know, a virus blows through the
planet and then everyone stands up and claps
at 5 p .m. because that's going to help everything.
So, you know, what it's done is it's put it squarely
on the shoulders of the people who are actually
on the front line. So you have all these holes
in this bucket, but you and your fellow men and
women in the correction system are the ones that
are having to. to you know to stem the flow when
it comes to behind those walls so what impact
is it having on the well -being of your profession
obviously it's naturally it's going to be exhausting
isn't it it's if like any service if any service
is stretched thin the people inside who are trying
to sort of deal with that are going to feel the
effects of that and i think with particularly
with like staff retention rates and the rates
that people are leaving and we I think that's
most likely from the effects of the service being
overstretched. Too many prisoners, not enough
prison officers, sadly. That's happening here.
We have a massive recruitment crisis in fire,
in EMS, in law enforcement, in dispatch, in corrections.
And because you've asked... people that do more
and more and more with less and less and less.
And if you don't do the proactive things, like
for example, go into the schools and put all
those pieces back together again and provide
more support in some of the areas that are struggling
more and have compassion and empathy on the backstory
of some of these families, rather than say, well,
if these families weren't broken, then we wouldn't
have bad kids. You know, these ridiculous things
that you hear, then that's how you fix it. But
we're drowning now. And then what happens is
the men and women that left, they end up being
forced to work even longer hours. And so now
we're seeing this, you know, suicide crisis,
you've got alcoholism, you've got addiction,
you've got cancers, you've got heart disease,
you've got all the things attributed to working
a person into the ground. I think, I think the,
yeah, yeah, I've got, I heard a solution. And
it's a guy called Jack Corley. Did you come across
Jack Corley? I don't recognize that name, no.
I'm in shock horror, James. What is going on?
So Jack Corley, he's a police sergeant in Colorado.
And yeah, headline being, his thing is one by
one policing. And I just put him in and he got
the attention of Simon Sinek. And he impressed
Simon Sinek so much that they've started something
called The Curve, meaning Simon Sinek's like,
I'm going to get involved in policing and I'm
going to make a difference to policing as an
independent, you know, and if you haven't, you've
been under a rock if you haven't read Start With
Why, isn't it? You know, I've seen that, seen
his why thing. But there's something in this
and something that he said that kind of rings
a bell. Meaning you go in the bookshops and you
see a lot of self -help. You see nothing about
helping others. And I think the ego from a politician
point of view in we're in for a term, we're going
to make a difference to public services. But
it's ego driven in the fact that we are going
to do it for and we're going to show we're the
best because we're in competition rather than
cooperation. You know, so then when it changes,
Republic to Democrat, you know, or in the UK
when it changes. then it's a short -term difference
and it's ego -based. It's kind of based from
that, meaning the people on the bottom suffer.
Whereas if it's truly selfless, if you're truly
trying to change something, like are you from
the middle or kind of you really care? And Jack
Corley, it's worth checking out. Anyone who hasn't
seen it, and again, a huge shout out to him.
And I was meant to do, it's interesting, I was
meant to do the Lego thing with him. I had a
call with him, I was hugely impressed. Just the
selflessness. And I think people at the bottom
are selfless. Josh yourself, yourself, we paid
for this. Yeah, it's cool. Let's be really honest.
There's going to be some good stuff that comes
from this. Yeah, great. It might help, whatever,
X, Y, Z. That's what we stand for. We created
this tool. It came off the back of a previous
company where it was a coaching thing. I'd used
Lego in the coaching. Lots of people are doing
that now. It's great in some ways. It was meant
to get to Colorado and was stuck. This sounds
awful. This sounds great, but it was awful, right?
Grounded in Barbados, right? Okay. Great. No,
not great, man. COVID, like I got tagged and
locked in a room and had to watch the beach while
everyone else was on it. And then, because I
wanted to punch into the States and you couldn't
get into the States. So like we had this whole
American tour planned and I was stuck there and
I finally got cleared and a hurricane grounded
it and I couldn't, and I missed it. Missed the
date. I felt like it was awful. People were taking
time off and missed it. And the whole of that
tour went so wrong. It was just, but whatever.
But I think the selflessness of like, if we all
start being a bit more selfless, you know, and
just kind of stop thinking about us, not, you
know, as such people at the bottom, people at
the top and just the hope I have. And there's
people like Neil Thomas, who's the ex -governor
of Loudoun, and he's now working in the cabinet
office. And we're kind of in contact and some
exciting things happen in there. But it's beginning
to change. And I think it's beginning to change
because you can't get away with that Shakespearean
white male squashing people down anymore because
there's people like you, James, the really annoying
rebel. has got a bit of a voice that can't be
ignored anymore, you know, and kind of like,
and actually we never had that before in history.
You know, we had, we had, we could write, you
know, we could, but whatever. But even that,
you know, it's like we kept, you know, poor kids
from learning that because you had to pay to
go to school, you know, a hundred years ago.
But now, like, we're just blasting it open. But
I think that kind of old school negativity is
taking over so much, which is why, you know,
again, like I'm so impressed that Josh is here
and, you know, just saying the positive. But
I think selflessness, people who want to change
stuff and preventative stuff, which is massively
what I stand for. If I'm going to introduce at
a conference something, I say preventative psychologist.
And not even a proper psychologist. There's a
clinical psychologist who are way cleverer than
I am. But I'm having it. I'm having that title
because I think if we can prevent, let's start
putting some energy into that. Because, you know,
that plant, you know, we know in abstract, you
know, plant trees that, you know, your kids,
you know, you'll never see and your kids will
see. So why aren't we doing it? And I think we're
not doing it because we're getting more and more
in the symptom society of we want our short hit.
We want a 20 second soundbite. We want to, you
know, we want we're not prepared to sit and listen
to the hard stuff in a way that I think first
responders, military, like they are they are
kind of ethically groomed to take the hard road.
you know like and it's and it's it's the long
-term benefits isn't it it's you know the short
term that eating the donut feels good you know
in the moment going to the gym feels shit you
know but you'll get the payoff later on so i'd
say if we can be selfless and preventative i
think we're onto a winner here you know and i
think that's that's maybe and you know and it's
that's the call to arms you know josh i know
you feel the same james i know you feel the same
i know there's millions of people that feel the
same um and and just hold on to that hope You
know, like hope plus that, I think we've kind
of got a chance. And yeah, so yeah, the curve
and some, any police who are listening and stuff,
well worth checking out because it's a slow,
small movement. And I mean, I know Jack Corley's
not going anywhere and he's really passionate
about it. But to have Simon Sinek behind you
and, you know, it's only, I think there's only
4 ,000 people following it. You know, it's not.
it's not huge you know but that that you can
feel the goodness in it you can feel the selfless
in it and just one by one this thing is like
one by one there's no money to be made this isn't
yeah it's just it's just incredible and james
i think you know you you do the same thing you
know like it's a very selfless thing this podcast
some cool stuff's come from it like john travolta
we're talking about that in a bit as well that's
well good right um but um but you're doing it
you started selflessly And it's just not a thing
anymore. It's about me and it's about me now
and how I look and what's going on and what's
the quickest way I can get the most attractive
person in my life and the most amount of money
I can make. And I'm like, we're just getting
this all wrong. But yeah, selflessness is preventative.
That's a segue, Josh. I'm going to shut up now.
You want to add anything, Josh? No, no, no. Hit
on the head off. All right. Well, yeah, it's
funny because there's two things that are really...
really risen to the top firstly i've said about
this a few times if you look at the evolution
of man and mankind we tend to go oh yeah we had
the wheel then the factory and then computers
and then ai and i was like bullshit that's not
the evolution of man those are tools the evolution
of man if you look through history is kindness
compassion and empathy and if you look actually
at the holy books a lot of people say that they
adhere to and then walk out the front door and
act like a fucking asshole they actually are
about kindness compassion and community so the
ancient wisdom is there telling us don't be a
dick it's written down in numerous languages
so and i think the enemy of that and i'd be i'm
gonna lie i think there is a kindness revolution
coming i do i absolutely do but the way that
we get there is you also have to look and understand
that These people that have opposed it, these
people that are divided nations, these people
that have caused wars, there's a mental health
issue there. The only way that that giggling
little toddler can stand by, you know, and turn
their head or even arm a nation slaughtering
20 ,000 children or, you know, insert any example
here, but that's a local current one at the moment.
or is behind a drug that causes an opioid crisis,
or is behind a company of tobacco that causes
millions of people around the world to die of
cancer and they sleep at night, there's a mental
health problem there. So we have to understand
that the people who are power hungry, the people
that are satisfied by greed alone, are sick individuals
and they should not be at the helm of a government.
of a company etc etc and they are the enemies
of this revolution of kindness compassion empathy
that buddha and jesus and all these other prophets
talk about so if we are actually going to move
forward and we're going to make changes and be
proactive and advocate for the mental health
and the physical health of not only our adults
but more importantly our children then we have
to understand a that we are inherently good as
human beings and b that there are some broken
people out there that need to be removed from
positions. Hopefully they'll go on their healing
journey and they'll use their incredible leadership
or business skills to do good in the world. But
if we allow those broken people that have no
empathy whatsoever and do not lose a moment of
sleep whilst their arms are overseas, slaughtering
children, for example. That is the thing that
we've got to have. It's not a left problem. It's
not a right problem. It's a human problem. And
I think whether it's, you know, the governor
of a prison who's lost multiple people to suicide
and refuses to change anything, or locally here,
a fire department, which is exactly what's happened,
and they sleep at night, same exact problem.
So I think collectively as a human race, we've
got to lean back into all the holy scripts, the
stoicism, all the things that are teaching us
about kindness and compassion. and kind of reset
and then come together like realize that you
are being divided like if you went to each side
of a world war one trench over a vaccine that
tells you how we talked about being conditioned
at school that tells you how divided you already
were that someone literally said if you wear
a mask go over there if you don't wear a mask
over there like i mean that to me speaks volumes
so circling around to what you said I could not
agree more. I think there really is a kindness
and compassion revolution. But tying into this
mental health conversation, we've got to understand
that if people sleep at night doing the horrible,
horrible deeds that they do, then that is a very
dangerous person to be in a position of power.
And we need to rethink who we put there in the
first place. Could not agree more. All right.
Well. Stay on you, Al. Let's get to your road
when it comes to psychology, and then we'll kind
of weave our way through to what you're doing
now today with Lego, because I'm sure people
are fascinated to hear that side. But how did
you even get into the world of psychology? And
then how did that lead you into the world of
law enforcement as well? Yeah. Yeah, I think.
Just not just not didn't think I was clever.
I'm like, I'm not doing this academic craziness.
But but that. I think, Dean, when you found out
there was a science and not an airy -fairy thing
and not a wishy -washy thing, a real hard science
to what you just said, the kindness revolution,
what's going on, I was like, this is a bit of
me. I will get involved here. And so I did my
master's. I was just messing around. I got serious
with teaching, but before that, I got an undergraduate,
but I was just like, yeah, whatever, and realized
you could study this and kind of went to the
interview. They're like, well, yeah, OK, I'll
teach you something, we'll take you. And was
blown away by things like post -traumatic growth
and the real hard science. And I loved the idea
that like, you know, and I was rubbish. I couldn't
write an academic paragraph. I was like, oh,
so got a humbling and a bit of a beating. But
started to listen and pay attention was just
like, I love the defence. It comes back to this
thing about the light and the dark. I was like,
if you can't defend your position, if you want
to go into maximum security, category A, HMP
Belmarsh and play Lego, you better be able to
scientifically defend what you're doing. And
I was like, I can get behind that. It's not for
me, whatever. And the more the course itself,
if you just pump positive psychology as a scientific
field. it's, it's rigorous, it's rigorous and
it's hardcore and it's numerical and it's quantitative.
And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So now, and
maybe, you know, deep down subconsciously, I
was like, I can defend me, you know, that optimism.
I've always been like kind of quite positive,
um, you know, but always being creative and stuff.
And those two things don't go with, you know,
the, the kind of male culture that I was brought
up in. Um, and it helped getting huge, you know,
people were like, all right. And then, you know,
get the beard. Okay, cool. Uh, but yeah, so finishing
MSC, um, And I was like, there has to be a way
of putting this science into real life. Because
I was, you know, there were mental health programs
that were happening. And there's a lot, I mean,
don't go under quality for police, right? There's
a lot of shit, like a lot of shit, you know,
like, and I'm going to charge you 3000 to do,
you know, a bit of cleansing. You're like, no,
no, no, no. And so, yeah, you know, I kind of,
I've talked about this before and stuff, but,
you know, I kind of, I became a workaholic. I
mean, I probably became an alcoholic actually
and a workaholic and kind of go hand in hand
and tried to take it into teaching and just wasn't
working. I was like, this is really important.
Like, this is huge. But was a little bit confused
and was, you know, all over the place and was
chasing women and farted about and like, yeah.
And then I had my own reckoning, which, you know.
yeah where kind of I just kind of lost my own
perspective I lost myself a little bit um and
that gave me a slap I got a hard slap for that
from the education world professionally and personally
um and that made me kind of go okay cool um went
to Australia um yeah and kind of kind of came
to the point where I was like I think I want
to kill myself I think I'm done here like this
is this is ridiculous um and you know which happens
to a lot of people I think it's important you
know to kind of normalize that a little bit it's
very sad we need to normalize it but like And,
you know, there's hope afterwards. Came back
to the UK and then started a business. And, yeah,
kind of a massive kind of shout out to, you know,
my kind of ex -partner at the time. She was German.
It's her birthday tomorrow, actually. She's German
and helped me see that actually I could bring
the kind of the teacher out. with full of bants
and super cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, wicked. With
the academics and put it together and maybe make
a company. Maybe I could do this. And she was
like, yeah, yeah. And that same mentor, she was
my mentor. She became my mentor and showed me
and helped me. And we built this company called
Inorama. Or I built it and she supported it,
which is great. And it was just kind of centered
around this very, very quick. powerful coaching
model that ended up being so powerful that like
it caused problems um because again i was a bit
annoyed that coaching was yeah do you want to
coach nobody wants to coach man nobody like and
you know there's great coaches there's great
and you know if you get real coaching you're
like wow it's life -changing but again market's
been saturated there's a lot of crap coaches
you don't need a qualification necessarily blah
blah blah so it works so this 28 question thing
worked um And off we went, you know, and kind
of started doing teachers and kind of working
with schools. And it was working. And I was like,
this is really good. This is really making a
lot of sense here. Started gathering momentum.
And then police. So I moved into police. I was
in Hackney. And a police officer there, which
is a rough kind of area of London for kind of
US people. And yeah, and he came in and said,
like, police could do with this. And I remember
kind of thinking, like, have you not got individual
psychologists? Like, what? What? Which was my
first foray. Look at you smiling. First foray
into the idea that all emergency responses are
just asked to suck it up. I'm sorry, what? And
that was it. It just lit an absolute fire. So
now I've kind of got this little bit of academia
and started kind of upping my academic game.
But it had to work. I think that's the theme.
I'm really pumped for Josh to kind of talk about
his... his experience this week, because it's
not me. It just works. You know, it's this tool
that works, take it and run with it and use it.
But to get to that, you've got to know your homework.
Like you've got to do the work. Like it's not,
it's, you know, and if I'm going to do something,
I'll do it. You know, like I'm getting involved
in prison. I'm doing some prison stuff, which
snapped me in two this week. Did it not, Josh?
You know, like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a weeb.
I like, I'm just like, wow. But I want to feel
it. I want to feel it. Show me the blood. Like,
I'm going to feel it. Like, if we're going to
do this. And academically, like, if I want to
talk about something, I want to know about it.
And I want to be wrong. You know, like, great.
I kind of learned everything I can. And then
tell me that I'm wrong and tell me the new stuff.
Like, you know, let's go forward. So, yeah, it
started saving lives. And I was like, okay, we've
got something here. But this is wicked. But too
fast. Too much work. Too fast. Again, too much
alcohol, really. which is very difficult when
you're on tour, you know? So got a handle on
that. And, you know, lack of fitness, you were
saying earlier, like I was just like, I was getting,
and there was losing perspective, I was missing
conversations, you know? And yeah, catastrophic
failure. No, beautiful failure. Yeah, it was
awful. And it felt like losing a child, best
thing ever, because out of that came stealth.
And that was like, right. And we went back and
said, what if it isn't? intervention what happens
if and my investor said it and you know huge
credit to him and um yeah he was just like what
this is too strong the psychology world if you're
trying to put a psychological intervention into
the emergency services i mean like i can't even
say it without laughing by the end of it you
know it's just not gonna happen like there's
so much red tape um and they're so cautious which
is really ironic isn't it we're happy to destroy
our people as a system but we're not willing
to kind of look at something new and credit to
the states because yeah we were pushing it with
british transport police the met um ham shit
like so many and just kept getting the same thing
and just and people were yeah it works it's great
we're not paying you i'm like well you can get
bent then do you mean like i'm not having it
like i've done the work for free like i've borrowed
money to work like that's how much i believe
in this and you're not gonna like no not having
it And it was kind of right at the kind of senior
levels of the Met. And they said, go to the States.
And they particularly said, go to the Southern
States. And took aim at North Carolina, landed
in North Carolina, and it just went off. They
were like, we love this. Let's go. And, you know,
put it together and it worked. And, you know,
it's a shame that it kind of fell apart. But
power and greed, I think, is probably the kind
of root of that money. There's a lot, you know,
we talked earlier about that. And then out of
that came stealth. And we went back to the drawing
board and my co -founder, Mark, who's a Royal
Marine SNCO. And he was just like, maybe this
is about listening. Like maybe this is actually,
maybe this isn't an intervention. Maybe this
is a de -escalation thing. What can you use?
How could you listen to somebody's subconscious?
Because this legacy was played and I'm pumped
to hear Josh. I don't know quite what you're
going to say. Please be gentle. All right. Okay.
We're in people's subconsciouses with this. Now,
there's no amount of papers you can read in the
world that you could learn what it is. But I'd
say the same for the internet. We all use it
every day. Do we get it, really? There's some
very clever people that do, but we're okay with
this. So what if you were just listening like
a submarine? You were just listening. The aim
of a submarine, we don't want to hit. you know,
like I was there this morning, it was literally
in Faslane, like around Faslane almost this morning
in Scotland. You do not want to press that missile.
So that's the approach we have in stealth is
we do not want an intervention. I do not want
you to take any action at all. All I want you
to do is to potentially change your perspective.
So the Lego thing, I think what's so, so... incredible
about legacy of play as a tool you know i'm going
to talk about the way i use it but it's just
worth a google anyone who you know there's a
lot of people who do the kind of vanilla version
and and go do it michael fern top is the best
as far as what i've seen what i've seen um and
i was like if we're talking a different language
here like legacy was playing without words is
is game changing that was the best part of inner
army you know we went back and like right that's
what can we make this tool that if you can de
-escalate a situation you can get someone to
communicate subconsciously you are off to the
races you know like words are very weak and i
love words i'm a big fan you know books that
kind of stuff but josh will attend to this like
you can perform exorcisms with lego serious play
in a really good way and that's like quite a
scary word you think oh god no it isn't So because
someone is possessed and I'm sure James would
love to hear you at the end of this little interlude
with me and Josh, if you know anyone like this,
but like, I think people are carrying potentially
the, the time bomb of their future suicide, trauma,
whatever. So what if you got to the bomb before
it went off rather than waiting to wear that?
And that's, you know, the preventative magic,
the X factor that, you know, that I would buy,
I would buy this tool. I'd be like, Oh my God,
this is, this is just this. if you can show me
that, if I can, if I can give you the tool that's
going to save your best friend's life, like 10
years before he even thinks about committing
suicide. And that's what stealth is. And that's
what it does. It's a de -escalation tool that
uses Lego series play and, um, without fail,
people who do it, um, always start with, this
is. batshit. Like, what is this? But if the SBS
and, you know, some of the kind of people we
work with say it's good, then it must have something
in it. And I think Josh even said that. And Josh
looked at the website and went, this is crappers,
but if Gary Bamford, the ex -Sergeant Major of
the SBS, said it's all right, there has to be
something in this. And now we've kind of done
as much research as we can, physically can. But
I don't understand this subconsciously. That
doesn't mean it doesn't work. And I don't want
to understand it fully. I don't want to mess
around with Josh's subconscious. I don't want
to get in there and do interventions. I don't
want to kind of, I'm not going to tell you that
I could give him advice. I didn't give him advice.
Whatever, you build it. You build your own, your
internal world is your internal world. And in
10 minutes time, it could be completely different.
But getting it out, that exorcism, that kind
of getting it out on the table means people can
help you. And they can offer suggestions to you
subconsciously that are going to stick to the
point where you're not going to be able to sleep
at night because you can't wait to take your
own action. And that's your business. And I think
this is just, Josh, the absolute rampant. You
now have to say what happened to you and the
title of that. You know, it's not about me. I'm
not that clever, and I've only got a master's.
You know, like, I haven't got a PhD. I've tried
four times. I'm not clever enough. Like, I think
I'm probably a little bit nuts myself. In fact,
no, I'm very nuts. I'm not going to get away
with that, right? And, you know, I've got people
in my team who are a lot cleverer than me, and
that works great. But watching this happen, like,
is game -changing. Like, it's life -changing.
It sounds so dramatic, and it's not me picking
it up as such. But it's needed and we're kind
of working to the place where it's in the lab
and we're getting it to a kind of four -day online
version that can go out to all civil service
people at a reasonable price that they can access.
And that's government level and it's some very
heavy conversations like that. But I think it's
a weapon of optimism that is needed. And the
longer it doesn't get out, the more people are
going to die. yeah you know and i wouldn't believe
me if i was listening to this so that's kind
of why josh is here so yeah that's josh to just
tell the absolute dirty ugly truth of when we
kind of broke him a little bit josh preamble
to that even from outside talk to me about what
it even is because a lot of people probably have
no concept of what we're even talking about so
josh talk about what was presented to you and
then let's transition to your own personal experience
I'll be honest. So I was told there was an idea
coming. The idea was we're going to get some
Lego in, right? There's a guy who's going to
bring in some Lego and it's going to basically
help people solve some of their problems. And
that's kind of what it was sold to me, which
I don't think is an overly accurate way of describing
it. And I'll be honest with you, in the time
that I've been without, I couldn't even probably
do it justice with a description because I just
think it's just... it blows my mind but anyway
so i thought give that a go sounds all right
sounds fun you know um but i've just realized
that actually like the when you experience it
and when you do it you realize that although
there's so much in it it's really simple and
i don't know if you agree with that but like
it's like I listen to Al talk when we do our
sessions and all the things that he explains
and the bits that we go through. And, you know,
it's there's so much that he's put into it. But
in its essence, what it is, it's so simple and
easy that you don't need to be you don't need
to be a genius to do it. Academically, I'm not
the best, but. It's so simple that I can sit
there and get well stuck in and it's effective.
It's brilliant. The people that like the sessions
that we've done out, as you'll agree, like it's
everyone has been able to just almost fall into
it. Even people who don't buy it at the start,
because you don't buy it at the start. If someone
says, right, we're going to sit here and play
with some Lego. You think, right, well, we got
other stuff to do, but all right, let's give
it a go. And then by the end of it, you come
out and I. Every session I've come out, I think
I've looked at you and I've gone, that was a
great session. You know, it's just so much in
it. And it just hits so many different great
points and different levels of that. And it is
brilliant. I probably haven't answered your question
there, though. No, no, let's frame it a different
way. You're sitting down. What does it even look
like? So, you know, what is given to you? What
are the things that you're instructed to do?
And then what are the things that start coming
up from that therapy? So I think in essence,
we'll be sat around a table in our group, a big
pile of Lego in the middle, given sort of a plate
to build on. And Al will give us a task. you
know and um i'll use the the duck one as an example
if that's all right so first session day one
he said to us right build a duck and naturally
i'm thinking in my head what does a duck even
look like and how am i going to make that in
front of me in 30 seconds and so everyone builds
their duck and they all look completely different
ridiculously different, unfathomably different.
But the whole concept behind that task is it's
a duck to everyone. It's the same thing to everyone,
but it's completely different at the same time.
And that's what I took away from that just 30
second exercise of we've all been given the same
task. We've all gone in with the same idea of
we need to build a duck, but they look completely
different. But to us, it means a duck. if that
does that make sense yes and i think that is
a very basic explanation of one of the things
that we've done with it um you know but to summarize
al gives us a task we build it and then we pick
apart like okay talk about it explain it why
is that a duck why why is that a duck to you
the same is why does that mean why does that
particular model mean something else why does
this mean that um and it is basic i would say
that's probably what you're looking for as an
explanation yeah and i'd say like you ramp it
up to there um it's great actually that's fine
and then you know i mentioned the vanilla serious
play legacy play and the first two exercises
are build a duck and build a tower everyone does
that you know that's what you start and um that's
where we part ways like what we do is start with
the normal uh part of legacy play but that duck
thing is is key you know everyone goes like a
duck and so many people build yellow and you
know they kind of give you so many more secrets
away and just go isn't that a chick it's not
a chicken that's that's a little chick surely
like no they're like and someone's like builds
a mallard then someone builds a bridge and ducking
under a bridge and they're like okay and like
josh says and you're like and you start going
and people like hang on like what's what's going
on here And I would say, or, you know, the course
says is like, we hallucinate our own reality.
Like, so we're going to watch this back. And
there'll be things that I've said, Josh has said,
you said, James, that you would almost swear
you didn't say. you know and like so you're like
hang on a second like and the brilliant example
is is a song right you know most people have
got a song that means something to them where
it's being played at a wedding or a funeral and
it comes on they start crying they're like oh
my god now the truth of that is the artist who
wrote that song weren't thinking about you do
you mean like it wasn't created for you wasn't
it and the next person will listen to it and
feel nothing so who's so who's what's real who's
who's because to them they're in floods of tears
they're like oh my god that's a real emotion
it's a real physical reaction But to them, so
if we're saying that reality itself isn't real,
and because it isn't, because to Josh's dirk
is completely different to my dirk, well, it's
the same dirk. If we can't even agree on one
word of the English language to have a conversation
that means the same thing, we've got a massive
problem with conflict and de -escalation. That
means basically you're flawed, like consciously,
and then we're like, right, okay, now going subconsciously,
and it goes from dirk to tower, and then we build
up to... you know, the kind of the tasks that
I think, you know, I just was going to kind of
talk about where actually you start asking questions
like, could you build a bridge from who you were
to who you are? And you've got six minutes or
build your worst day as a firefighter. And you've
got 30 seconds and the speed of the build means
you cannot think it's an impossible task. You'll
fail if you approach it consciously. And I think
what's cool is, you know, it's. The stealth course
is such, you know, and it's kind of the website's
Lego series play conflict resolution, but the
tool is called stuff. And it's, you know, you
asked what it is and stuff and like, you know,
and I'm interested if Joshua would agree with
this, but like I'd say de -escalation tool. That's
what it is that uses Lego, but I still think
that doesn't do it justice. But when you start
teaching people and teaching prison officers
how to create their own subconscious ecosystem
with Lego bricks, they ain't talking. There's
a bit of talking, but not really. It's what you
build. It's the meaning behind the bricks that
you build. You can remember things that people
have attached to those bricks eight weeks ago
and with amazing clarity. You're like, wow, okay,
this works. But crucially, then once a problem's
out, things like, and I'm sure we'll go into
it in a minute, you know, if you have a particular
problem and there's, say there's three of us,
right? Okay. So my problem, you know, so real
problem, right? I'm on my knees. No sympathy
needed, whatever. I'm working too hard, whatever.
I need some sleep. Yeah, great. Okay. So, but
I've got a crazy schedule. What do I do? So you
guys have got three plates each and on each plate,
I'd like you to put two solutions of what works
for you. You've got 20 seconds, go. So maths.
And I'm tired, so I'm like, shit, I don't know
how many that is. That's a lot of solutions,
right, in 30 seconds. So then you walk through
all of those solutions and then I self -select
one that's going to work for me. You've just
saved probably about five hours of conversation.
And I've chosen the answer. And how do you know
I'm telling the truth? And how do you know that
actually I'm not comfortable saying my problem?
on a podcast with you or you or you or you. And
actually, because if it was a conversation, I'm
too busy going, thank you so much, James, for
your solution. I'm going to go and try that out.
I'm at my balls. Not at all. I'm just appeasing
you because I feel bad that you're offering me
a solution that I know is not going to work.
So we're both wasting just so much wasted time.
You know, we're actually like kind of this is
like if you if you if you are brave enough to
kind of open yourself up in bricks. then you
can solve problems that are huge, you know, and
solve problems, you know, solve problems that
you don't even need to say what the problem is
and you can solve it. Like yourself, like, what?
How's that even, what? And I think it's been
a business problem of, and James, you're touching
it perfectly. People will not understand what
you're saying. Yep. so actually this is and this
is what we said didn't we before we started recording
it's like now uncomfortably as an introvert i
gotta start talking hence why there's a book
coming out there's a documentary coming out it's
gonna be online course coming out to explain
and people get it and they get it quickly um
and it's speed you ain't got time you ain't got
time to like whatever so if you can solve a problem
you know five times faster rather than make something
five percent better then why would you not you
know so yeah Do tell, Josh. Do tell about your
Wednesday. Yeah, and then Lincoln, so we did
an exercise earlier in the week in our group
where I basically had to identify something that
wasn't necessarily going to plan in my life at
the moment. So something that I'm currently dealing
with. Didn't go into it too much with the rest
of the team. However, put it out there, right?
So this is the kind of broad idea behind it.
and obviously with that so i built it and then
i'm explaining what i've built and i didn't even
notice it but al picked up on it straight away
and you could tell that i'm i'm i'm in there
like and we talk about when al talks about the
submarine you know i'm down in the depths i'm
i'm i was i was there wasn't i and then the task
for the rest of the group was to including myself
was to build potential solutions so i think we
had to pick four was it four in In a group of
four, wasn't it? So four forward solution, yeah.
Yeah. So by the end of that very short period,
I had 16 solutions there in front of me. And
I think the good thing about it was is I could,
because they were visually there in front of
me, I could picture myself actually doing them
in a conversation. If everyone was talking 16
solutions through with me, I'd have lost. They'd
have been gone. But I had them all there in front
of me on a plate. to take my pick right and we
noticed as people were because you gave me the
task didn't you of sit there and write down a
keyword from each person's solution to try and
remember it I stopped writing it for I didn't
even notice that subconsciously my mind just
went I it was too much people trying to talk
through it but then when it comes back to me
and it's put in front of me and I had the option
to pick them myself I picked ones that a I knew
that are reasonable for me that i knew that i
could achieve and that i could actually see myself
doing and by the end of it this problem i've
got i think i had five in the end and i i think
i think i picked five there was five that i liked
i picked five and i had these five solutions
in front of me where i could start to implement
that to sort of help myself and it felt good
but i was still down there at that point and
then Quick time, wasn't it? You switched. You
switched up and it was right. Now everyone say
something nice about this person in the group.
So then we all had to build something that represented
a nice thing about that other person. That completely
brought me back out of where I was. So I was
down here in it, thinking about my problem, trying
to think, oh my God, what's going on? How am
I going to get through this? How am I going to
sort this out? How am I going to sort that out?
How am I going to implement that? And then just
boom, gone. Completely disappeared. I couldn't
even tell you how I went from A to B. I couldn't
explain it. I couldn't put it into words, could
I? You asked me. I couldn't even remember where
I was because the switch up that Al did through
the use of the task that he set us just completely
took it away. But I still recognize that I've
got those solutions available to me. But the
whole element of being down in it is gone and
i can look back think about my solutions without
having to be in that pit again or down in the
depths of you set as you say with stealth um
and i think that kind of that's to summarize
pretty much what we did and it was it was intense
it was it was probably about a 10 minute exercise
10 15 minutes of playing with lego and building
some things out of lego but the emotional sort
of down and up that i did in those 10 minutes
15 minutes was was massive and you know you noticed
it didn't you in my body language and my presentation
the way I was speaking it was but it was brilliant
at the same time looking at it and actually experiencing
it myself I was just kind of like wow that's
really good and it I I hate it because I can't
explain it enough and do it justice in how it
felt because it's one of those where you've got
to be in it to to really know um but honestly
brilliant I can't remember if I, did we cover
anything else on that bit? I think that was the
long and short of what we did in that session,
wasn't it? Yeah. I think I'd add, yeah, the metaphor
and stuff is like, is the submarine thing about
kind of the rules under the water are not the
same as the rules above the water, you know,
standard psychology, nothing wrong with that,
you know, cool. But the rules down there, you
know, and I think Josh said. something i'm gonna
pick up on about um you know i said to say something
nice i'll build something nice for someone else
um and it sounds um it sounds so weak doesn't
it well how would that help how would that what's
the science behind that that's where you've got
to do your homework and read the papers and find
out actually underneath that is the broaden and
build theory meaning that if you're able to conceptualize
and kind of you know into a brick and give a
brick to somebody else then you're not focusing
on your own stuff and you know we talk about
how And Josh, you know, was saying about coming
up from the depths. And we've even got a kind
of a thing where, you know, the bends, you know,
being like, you know, for those unfamiliar with
diving terms and stuff is you come up too fast
from the depths and like you'll get bubbles in
your brain and blood and it can kill you. Like
it's awful. And it's, although it's not a psychological
tool, I think it's, we've spent a long time in
like, this has got to be safe. you know like
weird like it's scary listening to like on the
one hand you know josh is like it works it's
you know great but they'll be like hang on i
don't want someone down in my depths like what
are you about like not a chance and actually
great but it's josh on his own in his own submarine
sorting his own shit out And that's, I think,
kind of one of the USPs and stuff. But when you're
bringing people up, it has to be gentle. So it
was very fast, but it was gentle. And as Josh
kind of, not regain consciousness, but I guess
that's the closest words I've got. I would probably
agree with that. It's getting back into the room,
isn't it? Because I felt myself away. And you
did bring me back into what we were doing. And
then it kind of has a tangible solution. And
one of those tangible solutions is literally
happening right now. And I don't mean to ask
him the question and not in an arrogant way.
I know he's better. I know he's going to be fine.
And we haven't solved the problem. We've solved
what was underneath the problem, and he's fine.
And what's really cool is not only did he solve
his own problem, it revealed to me that actually...
He was, you know, and, you know, I was going
to say stop me if you want, but you can't because
it's whatever. So I'll say it with, you know,
clarity, but like, you know, the prison service
is in trouble. We've said that already, you know,
like, and it was weighing on you hugely. It was
a big part of this problem and it was really
affecting him. Well, I can't fix, you can't,
no one can fix that whole solution, but actually
by kind of Josh working out what subconscious
thing he needs to do, bringing it to the surface,
letting his conscious mind, you know, after a
sleep and stuff go like. Right, now I'm going
to do this. And then here he is talking about
it, potentially helping how many prison officers,
putting together a piece of positive media about
prison officers. And we're back full circle to
the selflessness thing. And all of that happened
from unconscious to conscious. He didn't lose
control of his facility. I mean, he did. He did.
You couldn't hear. You couldn't see. Then he
comes back and now he's helping other people.
We're back to selfishness, selflessness, and
helping others. And it's from Lego bricks and
mental. And I think it's like at the end of the
last session as well, I highlighted that. So
the group that we do it with, I mean, yes, we
work in the same place and they're lovely people,
but I couldn't tell you a right lot about them
outside of their names and what they do. However,
we've been through some pretty intense stuff
as a group, haven't we, Al? And it's like all
through the medium of Lego. It's been brilliant.
But again, I know things about the group that
I do it with that I wouldn't know about people
who are much closer to me. But we've had that
medium to sort of engage and talk and talk about
these things that are going on with each other
without actually having to sit down and do too
much digging with it. We can build it and see
it. I can see how they feel about what they're
going through in front of me visually out of
plastic. I can see how they feel. What a kind
of cool sentence. And question, Josh, for you.
Would you say you would have got to that depth
with just language or conversation? No, I mean,
personally, I struggle to get my words out. As
we've noticed throughout this, I've stumbled
a little bit, but I struggle with talking and
communicating. I struggle with actually presenting
my thoughts into sentences sometimes. But with
this, I can literally build it. I can be in there
and I go, what does this look like to me? And
I build it. And then once it's there, I can talk
about it. This means that, that means that, that
means that. And everyone can see it. You can
see how that. is what it is to me can't you i
mean i'm going to show you like we've got some
right so like this is that's a bit of lego serious
play you know the mechanics of the kit itself
it's 2500 pieces oh you got the same one right
okay um and everyone's like well that's an elephant
no it isn't it's the elephant in the room that's
what it is now me and josh are have got the similar
model same model that was built by the group
and you know one of the group you know i'm going
to say hannah for example like is extremely quiet
um and it doesn't hadn't really said much and
kind of you know was kind of doing her stuff
and then i said one thing about as a reflection
about how i was kind of really appreciating her
input and she shared that like you know she would
sell almost kind of borderline redundant in the
group that wouldn't wouldn't have come out you
know so she built this one you know and you know
and kind of there it is and so like it's the
actually the elephant in the room is is like
you know when we were talking about you know
how do we get this in and what do we do with
this you know but it's whatever it means to me
is whatever it means to you i could tell you
this stands from like you know the sun that i
never had and it meant you know something to
do with xyz that's what it is but there's something
subconscious that locks on that meaning that
you know is just massive and then to me you know
these these green things here were like there
are four of them doing communication towers so
this is josh this one here or the white one they're
all the same to represent the unity of like you
know josh is mega but he's one of a team you
know it's not we're not doing celebrity status
here even though he is obviously right and then
if they start communicating and it's green because
it's positive and that led us into me remembering
that i had a podcast with this guy called james
you know gearing how do you I'm gearing, isn't
it? Yeah, yeah. I'm going to say greening. I
have done my homework, I promise, right? And
that then led into a suggestion of me going,
right, you're feeling crap about the job. You
can't leave the job. We can't solve this problem.
You can't leave your job. You've got to provide,
do stuff. But actually, maybe you could come
on. There's no way I would have got, that conversation
wouldn't have happened. He might have said, oh,
what are you doing on Friday? I doubt it. You
know, it just wouldn't have gotten anywhere near
that. But by talking about green plastic and
an elephant and something, so my subconscious
reacts with his subconscious. And then, you know,
permission to ask a question, you know, Josh,
what are you doing on Friday night? And he's
like, well, apparently I'm talking to James.
Well, there we go. So actually, but we wouldn't
have even got there. And I think that sums it
up nicely. It makes the unseen seen. And it does
it safely and it's not a psychological tool.
And if I can see your subconscious and you can
see mine and we stick to the guardrails and that's
why it takes four days to learn. If you veer
off, game over. You'll come back automatically
and you'll end up having a conversation and nothing
will get solved and it's just not going to happen.
So you have to stick to the rules, you know,
because that's what we spent 15 years researching
this, getting it together. But that's where the
conflict resolution comes. Josh said, you know,
he's not great at kind of putting sentences together.
What does this do for prisoners who can't read
and write? What does this do for prisoners in
every country? What does this do for a course
that can be translated into different languages
where all you need is the course, the book, documentary,
bag of Lego, go. Just go. Cause it's not about
me. I'm not, I'm not, whatever. It's not a money
-making thing. And so this is, this is something
that needs to be out there, you know, like, and
it's breaking me in two and not for sympathy,
you know, but like it's, it's, but you attract
people like Josh, you kind of believe the same
thing, you know, and back to the same thing,
you know, believe what you believe. And, you
know, and then James believing what, you know,
you believe and what, you know, how many people
are not here anymore who, if they could have.
healed something that was deep down in there
would have stopped them taking their own life
or would have stopped them kind of whatever but
they could never access it like a hidden language
they couldn't speak that they couldn't even communicate
to themselves let alone speak to someone else
and that's assuming you get over the stigma of
asking for help because you're a protector and
so i guess it's you know trying to boil it right
down it's a language you know stealth is a language
it's teaching people how to how to communicate
subconsciously and it's more comfortable for
people how i find as well like we particularly
with in the environment that i work in there's
a divide you know staff prisoners that divide
is there sadly and sometimes having those conversations
can be impacted by that but if you're having
a conversation about what someone's built then
that divide that wall that's in place knocked
down straight away i mean we've had some fantastic
conversations in our sessions and i think it's
i mean used example that like put two people
in a room prison officer prisoner by the end
of it they realize they've got so much in common
because they've sat there and they've built it
you know i see what you've done there because
i see it exactly the same way i've got this i've
got that and then they talk about how they get
through it together and it's i just think it's
brilliant i think it is so simple so elegant
but so intense and powerful and just it's just
great it's just great i couldn't i couldn't speak
higher enough about after our first day could
i and i still can i came home i stole his lego
kit i sat my partner down straight away and i
said right build this and you know but it is
it's brilliant what about One more area. What
about the, some of the stories, obviously not
naming names, but what have you seen as far as
some of the people on the incarcerated side and
some of the success stories there? Oh my God,
please going to have that one. Okay. Right. I
have two people. I'll give you two straight off
the bat and I can say their names because they're
now like kind of X and I'll talk about two without
names that are in. So one is out. there's a guy
called michael brodle who um has just got out
of belmarsh uh for something very serious um
and he was not having it as such and like he
was formerly in the military and um and completely
owns his stuff you know and it's kind of out
there like north of google and stuff where he's
now kind of working towards um doing mental health
stuff and helping people and writing and like
okay cool um frightening fella right okay like
serious frightening fella um good soul I believe,
and, you know, circumstances and kind of whatever.
And he was told in Belmarsh, he was like, oh,
this Lego thing. And he was like, is that free
food? Yes, it is. So he came, did it, blah, blah,
whatever. One day, did one morning on one day,
and a year later came out and found me, which
is quite scary, like, in some ways, right? And
emailed me recently, recently. Like, I went to
a coffee with him, like, weeks ago. And he told
me that... And they'd gone back to, they'd done
it, and he was sat next to, and this guy's in
the side, so I can't, I'm not going to name his
name, but he was one of the senior ranks of the
Muslim Brotherhood that run a serious, you know,
amount of stuff in prisons. And again, that's,
you know, there's stuff on that. Now, he was
an ex -Royal Marine who was paid to kill people
in the Middle East. And they were sat next to
each other in Belmarsh, building, saying nice
things about each other. And it impacted them
so much that they went back and kind of talked
to each other and started talking to themselves.
And when he was kind of explaining this and stuff,
and he's like, I haven't been able to stop thinking
about it. And I want to help. And I don't know
if I can, because... what I'm you know he's out
and he's on probation and he's still tagged and
he's you know he's coming off but I was like
so much respect morally I put my morals to one
side I put my judgment to one side I was like
so much respect for kind of someone who's kind
of taken that tool and kind of done it and so
Loudon and you know there's the team in Loudon
this is a good time to go and talk about him
And there's a person called Leanne who was incredibly
critical of this. And she's she's got something
called a shit deflector where her strength is
massively to kind of keep people safe and do
it, whatever. But she's she's very critical and
organized and on point. And she just was like,
I'm not having this like this is whatever. And
has put me through my paces. And, you know, just
I think she's brilliant. And the other guy, one
of the guys, they said, I want to see when I
finish this course. two of the biggest gangsters
in Nottingham, because it's, you know, it's the
most local, it's a flagship prison for the project,
sit down and build. I want to see them building
their things. And those two stories for me kind
of really stood out. And yeah, so that's one.
So, and the other one is Ricky Killeen. So I've
talked about him before. He's up in Durham and
he chops someone's arm up and he's huge. Like
he is scary and he runs a podcast called Behind
the Bars and he just, no fucks given. He just
says it as it is and he's got some very strong
views and it is not for everyone. However, he's
written a book called Behind the Bars Fitness
and, you know, again, and wants to help, you
know, and he kind of owns it. And we got in touch
and stuff, we started building. uh he said the
same thing about like you know if people had
this if if i'd had this and we talked about our
dads a lot as well it's on a podcast like somewhere
like um from last year and you know i was like
i'm sitting down with someone who who is such
a serious criminal and we are just like i'm sitting
down with you guys you know digitally like just
you know i was there in person as well and like
it was terrifying but but but brilliant at the
same time. And we just, we're all human beings
and it just, it just keeps happening. And then,
you know, the kind of, an example of someone
who's, you know, inside and careful not to kind
of say the offence or anything, but, and this
is what, this is, this is appropriate. Actually,
this is what got me, like the thing that got
me big time, because I struggled as a teacher
in really at my core being. you know he was having
repeated self -harm and you know he'd been in
the system since 13 and he's now 29 and i was
like i want to see the cell like i want to let's
get in just get into this like i want to go see
that like show me respectfully you know not because
i'm glorifying it so i went to go pick him up
for the session so i got kind of access to go
onto the wing and stuff and kind of you know
and he apparently hasn't engaged with any group
work since he's been in every prison he's been
in and young offenders since the 13th. Lego,
you can do. Like, Lego, he was like, right, and
he was pumped for it. Like, he was actually excited.
And he came to the last session and I watched
the other guys build him a traffic light and
they built him, like, a red, because he said
he was, and this, I can share this, it's not
about the offence and stuff, and it's bad, it's
a bad offence. And he was saying... I struggle
with my nightmares and I struggle that when it's
okay, I can talk. But when my nightmares come
in, I don't want to dream about the sexual abuse
that I had as a kid. So if there's spice or something
that can make me forget, I'll take it. If the
drones are coming in, I'll have it because I
want to sleep. I'm tired. I just want to sleep.
Hence, kill himself. And he's just done with
life. And he's done, he was, he, from his builds,
he kind of got to, I'm done with life because
no one's listening because I can't put it into
words because I'm one, I've had so many drugs
in my brain and two, I'm not educated to the
point where I can put the right words to how
I'm feeling on top of, I'm a bloke on top of,
you know, like I'm just so much. And he did a
bit of a similar, it was the same lesson as such
the same part of the course that, you know, different
from Josh, but, um, and. And he built it and
the prisoners and the prison officers each gave
him a solution. There wasn't as many solutions
as usual. And they built him a traffic light.
I've said, and it read, you know, red, amber,
green. Red is I need some help and I can't talk
and please help me. And I don't know what's going
on. Amber is I can tell you a sentence of what's
going on and I still need some help. Green is
I don't want to talk about it, but I'm good.
And he built it and I was like. you're having
this model you that's my present to you like
um and so and i just i was in bits i was crying
my eyes out like just just absolutely fell apart
i was like this is you know and this is this
is this sounds ridiculous but this is literally
an everyday occurrence you know if i go to more
prisons because it just works you know and we
kind of and i said you know can i walk you back
to the wing and stuff and he was like yeah yeah
no worries because he's from up north um and
we went back and went in and he just hugged me
which is a bit scary. And I was in the cell with
him and he could have taken my face off, but
like, he just hugged me and just, and just said,
thank you. And, um, I heard back yesterday, I
got an email yesterday saying, um, he'd taken
the red brick and to a listener and, you know,
they got Samaritan's listeners and just put the
red brick then because the whole wing are doing
the legacy was play thing. They know what that
means. And yeah. And I, and it was the moment
I think that my ego just died in that. that's
it now it's starting to go and imagine if there's
one of the if this tool is used in every prison
if there's a kit you can you know rent out on
a wing then that's my my answer is the vision
is if every wing in every correctional facility
has this lego kit and it gets passive i don't
need to be there because i'm a mess i'm not that
great you know book documentary so you get it
you can read the book if you want get the legacy
play course do the do the four -day course which,
and it's online, so kind of fine, or will be
online, then you've got a wing of prisoners building
and looking out for each other under supervision,
because it's, you know, you've got to be careful.
You know, I want to put the kit out in two weeks
or a week or four days to deal with my problem,
and I don't even want the officer to talk to
me. The officer's got to watch to keep him safe,
like, fine. I want John in cell 24 to talk to
me. It's even the fact that they know they're
going to build, and Josh, I don't know if you
echo this. you know, days before the session,
you know you can get it out. How much does that
calm you down? Even that's a suicide prevention
thing. You know, it's just like, right, okay,
this is shit. I can hold on three days, then
I'm building, whatever. But it's not reliant
on a business or me to come in because it's already
there. Like, so what's that on several levels?
What's that doing for their communication skills?
They're having conversations about hugely complex
and heavy emotional stuff, but it's not psychology
and they're giving each other solutions rather
than having to wait for a psychologist to come
in. because the system's broken and it's kind
of overstretched. So then you go, right, what
would happen if teachers had this? What would
happen if nurses had this? What would happen
if we could make this financially viable, that
it didn't cost a fortune, that you could, I mean,
it's a language, it's a new language, you know,
that could kind of, they can do it themselves.
And that's where I think the kind of cynic Jack
Corley thing really hits me, is like, people
want to help themselves out their shit, I think.
you know the last if and if you if we can do
that and if lego as crack as it is is the way
to do it then you know it's got to be worth a
shot um so yeah i don't know if that answers
your question you got a little bit passionate
yeah no it's brilliant and it reminds me of you
know several people but especially dr either
thieger who's talking about that hurt child that's
inside so many of us like i i literally had a
not an incident a moment in jujitsu not long
ago and i was rolling with this guy he must have
been god i don't know like 145 so what is that
10 stone um and uh i was talking about yeah you
know do this because you know us small guys and
i remember him looking at me like what are you
talking about i'm six foot two and 180 so i'm
not a big lad but i'm a kind of you know slightly
below average build i'm not small and but in
my mind i'm still that little tiny kid And so
we all have that. So it really does make a lot
of sense that that little child inside of us,
one of the things that universally around the
world, at least in the more developed parts of
the world that are fortunate enough to be able
to purchase Lego as a toy, that we have. So you
have that connection. And what do we do? Where's
that connection as children? We build things
together. Like we said, the little kid, someone
drops a ball in the middle of preschoolers. it's
going to be a party, you know what I mean? They're
going to be kicking it and throwing it and chasing
it around. And so that commonality is tapping
back into, you know, hopefully before the pain,
before the trauma, and then they're able now
to then kind of walk back from there to the adult
that's actually sitting around the table. Yeah.
Couldn't agree more. beautiful well to round
this off then for people listening let's talk
about where they can find the course where they
can access the tools that they would need if
they wanted to bring it to you or you know ultimately
the online course to their own department or
prison sure um yeah it's you know we'll always
be you know as honest and you know spot on that
stuff and we're releasing it um in april 26 however
Um, if people want to kind of have it and do
with it and come with us on the journey now,
cause it's ready and it's operating cause it's,
you know, and it's checked and it's done, it's
researched and that's great. Um, and we're offering,
you know, a kind of very reasonable discount
because I need more Josh's, you know, because
it's, I think we said, you know, I'm not marking
my own homework. Um, have a look at the website,
website and email. Even website is, you know,
lspcr .uk. Um, or just email me directly. Just
al at lspcr .uk. Let's have a conversation. I
think everywhere is different and we only have
so much capacity. But I love the idea of people
coming on board now. I think it's like you hear
it and you're like, this is a no -brainer. Clearly
this is going to work. And it will work. Great.
But people who are divisionary leaders. because
that's what it takes you know josh can like it
all day long so if the governor says no it's
not happening like you know it's if people want
to get on board like let's have a conversation
you know and then i think it's going to come
out wide you know worldwide on april 26th um
so yeah brilliant what about you if you want
to reach out to you or find you on social media
where are the best places i love linkedin I love
LinkedIn, and that's all I've got. I haven't
got anything else. I haven't got Instagram or
Facebook or something. I cannot remember what
that link is, James, if you can put that in.
But do, you know, and kind of I will answer what
I can when I can. And, yeah, I think it's a great
place to kind of be connected with authentic
individuals. But, you know, we'll always have
the conversation. Even if it's just five minutes,
we'll always find time. You know, so, yeah. Beautiful.
And Josh, if anyone wants to reach out to you,
I know it's harder when you're in law enforcement
and corrections, you're not going to have your
face plastered everywhere. Are there any avenues
to find you? There's not. However, I mean, if
anyone gets in touch with Al, he can put you
in touch with me if it's burning or detrimental
or important. And then we'll go through that.
If you're all right with that, Al. 100%. He's
great. He's great at speaking. I think you can't
help but be captivated by his enthusiasm and
positivity. His jokes are terrible, but yeah.
So yeah, good stuff. Brilliant. Well, I want
to say thank you so much. It's been such an unusual,
different way of looking at this problem. And
even, you know, as you said, you navigated out
that very dark place yourself. And I think most
people have been there in some way, shape or
form. This is what we were talking earlier about
immersion, about 10 different solutions being
given to you and then you get to choose your
one. I know when I've suggested things to people
and you just see the doors behind their eyes
just close. Okay, well, they're not taking that
suggestion. So being able to immerse someone
and say, all right, there's 15 doors in front
of you. Pick the one that you want to go down.
And so some people, they're going to listen to
this and go, that makes a lot of sense. I mean,
my son, my son in his bedroom, he's about to
go to college in a couple of months. He's got
his bed, his little office table in the corner,
and the rest is two massive tables covered in
Lego, an entire Lego city in his bedroom. That's
his jam. You know, that's what he connects with.
So. So, yeah. So it's so great to have all these
solutions from psychedelics to equine therapy
to Lego to all these different areas so that.
The right people can go, this is the right one
for me. So I want to thank you both so much for
being so generous with your time, coming on the
show, being vulnerable and bringing this amazing
solution to us. Pleasure. Yeah. No, thanks to
you too, Danny. Awesome.