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with joel totoro and wes barnett This episode

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is sponsored by TeamBuildr, yet another company

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that's doing great things for the first responder

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features. And if you want to take a deeper dive

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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you

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think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome

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to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,

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my name is James Gearing, and this week it is

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my absolute honor to welcome on the show West

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Point graduate, Green Beret, and co -author of

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Perseverance is Greater than Endurance, Blaine

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Smith. Now, in this conversation, we discuss

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a host of topics, from his own journey into the

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military, the ROTC program, special forces selection,

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working with GORUCK, nonprofits, his unique perspective

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on war, leadership, and so much more. Now, before

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we get to this incredible conversation, as I

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say every week, please just take a moment, go

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to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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well over 1 ,000 episodes now. So all I ask in

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return is that you help share these incredible

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men and women's stories so I can get them to

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every single person on planet Earth who needs

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to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce

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to you, Blaine. Smith. Enjoy. Well, Blaine, I

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want to start by saying, firstly, welcome to

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the Behind the Shield podcast. And secondly,

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I want to say thank you to Brandon as well. He

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was on, I think we did an interview two weeks

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ago, a week and a half ago, and it was an amazing

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conversation. But now we're going to get to hear

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your kind of parallel journey into the leadership

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group that you formed and the book that we're

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going to talk about. So welcome onto the show.

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Yeah, James, thanks for having me. I'll try not

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to let you down. I do suspect that Brandon was

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a great guest, so I don't know if I can live

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up to that, but I'll do my best. We'll find out.

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All right. Well, very first question, where on

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planet Earth are we finding you this afternoon?

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I'm in Cumberland, Maine. We live in a small

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town just north of Portland and I'm in my home

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office. Beautiful. Well, I would love to start

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the very beginning of your journey. So tell me

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where you were born and tell me a little bit

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about your family dynamic, what your parents

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did, how many siblings. Sure. I was born in Effingham,

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Illinois, which is a small town at the intersection

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of two interstate highways in southern Illinois.

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I was born there because my dad worked for Yellow

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Freight. He's from southern Missouri and had

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gotten a transfer from St. Louis over to Effingham

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as a young man. And he met my mom there, who

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was a young single mom, when they met. And she

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worked for the Keller Oil Company, which was

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the family that kind of owned everything in town.

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It's like a lot of small Midwestern towns are

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that way. There's a family or two that own most

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of the stuff. They met. They fell in love, got

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married. My dad adopted my older sister, my older

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half -sister. And I was born there in December

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of 1978. And really the next 18 years of my childhood,

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it was like growing up in a blue collar Midwestern

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household. We did move down to Southwest Florida

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when I was four years old. So I grew up in Southwest

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Florida and a much less developed part of Florida,

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certainly than it is now. You know, kind of spent

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all my time outdoors, played lots of sports,

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did pretty well in school, just went to public

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school. you know kind of middle class lower middle

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class kid had a great childhood by all accounts

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um but really grew up with those values my parents

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uh cut grass clean pools my dad eventually went

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back to driving a truck to the end of his career

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and retired from the teamsters union but that

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was what life was like around my house my parents

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both worked very hard you know a lot of responsibility

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you know live within your means save money do

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your best that kind of stuff. Don't be flashy,

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don't brag, nose to the grindstone kind of household.

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But my parents loved me. They were very good

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to me. They went to my sporting events and supported

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me when I made mistakes, but also expected a

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lot out of me in terms of my effort and my behavior

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and my discipline. And yeah, that's really what

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the Smith household was like back in the 80s

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and 90s. You often hear about families that adopt

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maybe after having a couple of kids or adopt

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because they can't have any kids. What was the

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dynamic that got them to adopt first and then

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they had you biologically? Oh, no. So it wasn't

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that. My mother was married very young at like

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18 and had my sister at 19 and then was fairly

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shortly separated. So when my parents met, my

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mom had a child from a previous marriage. Oh,

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OK. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. Brilliant.

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Well, what about sports and exercise? You're

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down in Florida now. What were you doing and

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playing back then? I'm a very active kid, almost

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a hyperactive kid, maybe by today's standards,

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but I basically played everything I could. So

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I played soccer and baseball starting at five

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years old and basically played both of those

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sports through about the middle of high school.

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I played a little bit of rec basketball in the

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summer. I was in a bowling league, usually in

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the summertime. You know, a lot of touch and

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tackle football after school, just anything I

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could do that involved sports, physical activity,

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competing. You know, I loved riding my bike,

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doing BMX, skateboarding, you know, kind of jumping

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off bridges into canals, you name it. I eventually

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picked up golf as I got a little older. I played

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it as just kind of an after school program when

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I was nine or 10. And then when I became probably

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14 or 15. I realized I had a pretty good knack

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for it. And I wasn't physically maturing quite

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as fast as a lot of my peers. And so while some

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boys were really big and strong at 14, 15, I

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didn't really bloom until I was maybe 16. And

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so that created a window where I just wasn't

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able to compete at a high level in the more physical

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sports like I had my whole life. And I was really

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good at golf. And so I really dug into it and

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became... a very good junior golfer in Southwest

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Florida and eventually went on to play in college.

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And that sort of became my niche, which, you

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know, was always sort of an interesting thing

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to talk about at parties because I didn't feel

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like a golfer per se, you know, I always felt

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like an athlete, but that's kind of where my

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path took me. And I loved it. I mean, I didn't

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do it begrudgingly. I really loved playing golf

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at a high level. I don't play really at all or

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much anymore, but I hope to again someday. When

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I speak to people that have done team sports

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and individual sports, it's always interesting

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kind of pulling how each of those two dynamics

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served them when they entered the uniform. Yeah,

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I think both played a big role. Growing up playing

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team sports was incredibly formative because

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you learn things like cooperation, teamwork.

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You learn to play for the name on the front of

00:10:45.289 --> 00:10:46.789
the jersey and not just the name on the back

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of the jersey. and kind of get along you learn

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leadership which i think i did i was a good natural

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athlete as a young kid so i had to learn a little

00:10:56.559 --> 00:10:58.539
bit about leadership because whether you wanted

00:10:58.539 --> 00:11:01.200
to or not other kids were going to look to you

00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:05.120
for example your coach may lean on you a bit

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more you may be the team captain center midfielder

00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:11.159
that kind of thing but then as i got older and

00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:13.419
got involved in individual sports golf in particular

00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:17.200
You have to learn things like mental calm and

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clarity. You have to learn to rely on yourself,

00:11:19.500 --> 00:11:23.519
discipline. And I wasn't great at that. I would

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have been a much better collegiate golfer if

00:11:25.320 --> 00:11:27.899
I had a better mental game, probably. I think

00:11:27.899 --> 00:11:30.279
I could actually be a fairly good competitive

00:11:30.279 --> 00:11:32.620
golfer now if I got back into it with some of

00:11:32.620 --> 00:11:38.220
the skills and maturity. But bringing that into

00:11:38.220 --> 00:11:41.220
a very competitive military environment like...

00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:43.700
the First Cav Division or the Special Forces

00:11:43.700 --> 00:11:46.679
environment where I ended up, I think was huge

00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:50.220
because I had both the teamwork dynamics, the

00:11:50.220 --> 00:11:53.799
ability to lead, that desire to play and compete

00:11:53.799 --> 00:11:57.039
on a team, but also that kind of resilience and

00:11:57.039 --> 00:11:59.559
understanding that, hey, sometimes it's just

00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:02.500
you and you out there and you've got to be able

00:12:02.500 --> 00:12:05.059
to tap into that from time to time as well. I

00:12:05.059 --> 00:12:07.679
think it's very humbling. when you're in a sport

00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:09.779
where it's just you and i did martial arts so

00:12:09.779 --> 00:12:12.320
i played field hockey which was kind of big um

00:12:12.320 --> 00:12:14.539
in the uk and that was a team sport obviously

00:12:14.539 --> 00:12:17.779
but then i fought you know the taekwondo and

00:12:17.779 --> 00:12:20.019
it's interesting because in you know if you have

00:12:20.019 --> 00:12:22.759
a bad game the rest of the team can kind of pull

00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:24.799
you up or vice versa you know you can relate

00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:27.639
um kind of compensate for someone who's struggling

00:12:27.639 --> 00:12:29.899
that particular day when you're on the mat on

00:12:29.899 --> 00:12:31.440
your own when you're on the course on your own

00:12:31.870 --> 00:12:34.450
It's just you. So you can't make excuses of why

00:12:34.450 --> 00:12:36.210
it didn't go well. You have to look in the mirror

00:12:36.210 --> 00:12:38.230
and fix the things that were broken and come

00:12:38.230 --> 00:12:41.870
back better. Yeah, it's definitely the case.

00:12:41.909 --> 00:12:44.450
And I think golf was especially so because you

00:12:44.450 --> 00:12:46.330
don't even have an opponent. It's not like a

00:12:46.330 --> 00:12:49.070
tennis match or a fight where you can say, you

00:12:49.070 --> 00:12:50.950
know, bad matchup or my opponent got the better

00:12:50.950 --> 00:12:52.809
of me that day or I just caught one on the jaw.

00:12:53.450 --> 00:12:56.250
No, I mean, it was really just you and the course

00:12:56.250 --> 00:12:59.710
that day. And I think about special forces training

00:12:59.710 --> 00:13:01.389
and selection when you're out there doing land

00:13:01.389 --> 00:13:04.169
nav or the star course. It's you and a map and

00:13:04.169 --> 00:13:05.950
a compass and a heavy rucksack, and you just

00:13:05.950 --> 00:13:08.149
have to go find your points. And it's just you

00:13:08.149 --> 00:13:11.370
and the course. And, you know, with some reflection

00:13:11.370 --> 00:13:13.190
now looking back, I can see where, wow, that

00:13:13.190 --> 00:13:17.110
probably helped out a lot. Absolutely. Well,

00:13:17.169 --> 00:13:18.850
what about career aspirations? When you were

00:13:18.850 --> 00:13:20.409
in high school, what were you dreaming of becoming?

00:13:22.490 --> 00:13:24.309
I don't think it was really clear to me, but

00:13:24.309 --> 00:13:27.720
I was very much. steeped in the 80s, 90s playbook.

00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:30.399
You know, you do better than your parents. You

00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:32.639
know, my parents didn't go to college. And so

00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:35.559
that was kind of my big aspiration. I was a good

00:13:35.559 --> 00:13:37.899
student. So the idea was I would do well in school

00:13:37.899 --> 00:13:39.759
and I would get into a good college and I would

00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:43.519
go away to university. I don't think I thought

00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:45.620
way past that. I thought maybe I'd be an engineer

00:13:45.620 --> 00:13:49.259
or some professional job. Kind of the American

00:13:49.259 --> 00:13:51.799
dream. It was still very much sort of alive in

00:13:51.799 --> 00:13:56.779
its original form back then. I didn't really

00:13:56.779 --> 00:13:59.179
aspire to join the military, if I'm being honest.

00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:01.899
I think an opportunity to go to West Point is

00:14:01.899 --> 00:14:04.500
what really got me thinking about it. And when

00:14:04.500 --> 00:14:10.100
I looked at the financial aspects of it and the

00:14:10.100 --> 00:14:12.659
athletic and kind of competitive aspects of it,

00:14:12.659 --> 00:14:15.639
it became very appealing to me as a college opportunity

00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:20.039
more than a career path. But yeah, I don't think

00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:22.899
I really had great aspirations to be anything

00:14:22.899 --> 00:14:26.580
in particular. other than to to do well and go

00:14:26.580 --> 00:14:29.039
to the next thing and do well at that and kind

00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:31.919
of see where it took me i've had a few people

00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:34.580
on here that went to west point and i would say

00:14:34.580 --> 00:14:37.639
almost all of them didn't seem to enjoy it very

00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:41.240
much so talk to me about what one would expect

00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:43.980
maybe it's the parents listening here um you

00:14:43.980 --> 00:14:46.399
know as far as that journey and what was it because

00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:48.440
i remember we talked before what was it that

00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:50.940
allowed you to enjoy it when some of your peers

00:14:50.940 --> 00:14:54.779
were uh were having less fun i'm assuming Sure.

00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:57.000
Yeah. The running joke is that West Point is

00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:59.279
a great place to be from, but it's not a great

00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:03.539
place to be. And I think there's a lot to that.

00:15:03.700 --> 00:15:07.700
You know, I showed up with no real background

00:15:07.700 --> 00:15:10.200
or, again, any real aspiration for a military

00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:13.860
career. And so on one hand, it was a little bit,

00:15:13.860 --> 00:15:16.460
you know, kind of startling or shocking to me

00:15:16.460 --> 00:15:19.600
having to snap into that lifestyle of sort of

00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:23.500
discipline and regimentation. and restriction

00:15:23.500 --> 00:15:25.960
in a lot of ways. I'm a very independent person.

00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:30.000
And so that was a big change for me. But on the

00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:33.980
other hand, I didn't stress too much some of

00:15:33.980 --> 00:15:35.899
the finer points of it. So I think I was able

00:15:35.899 --> 00:15:38.500
at times, at least more than some of my classmates,

00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:41.700
not to have too much doom and gloom around. I

00:15:41.700 --> 00:15:43.620
messed that up or they yelled at me for this.

00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:45.480
I was able to let a little more of that maybe

00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:50.320
roll off of my back. And I don't think I figured

00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:52.519
it out until it was a little too late. But I

00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:54.679
did get to a point maybe in my last year or so,

00:15:54.779 --> 00:15:57.480
maybe a year and a half, where I'd made some

00:15:57.480 --> 00:15:59.759
good friends and I was able to largely enjoy

00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:02.179
the experience and I could see the light at the

00:16:02.179 --> 00:16:04.539
end of the tunnel. And there was a part of me

00:16:04.539 --> 00:16:06.080
that knew that this was a special time in my

00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:08.059
life and it was not going to last forever and

00:16:08.059 --> 00:16:10.299
it would go away. And someday I would just be

00:16:10.299 --> 00:16:12.919
kicked out into the army to be just another dude

00:16:12.919 --> 00:16:15.299
wearing a green uniform who's a second lieutenant.

00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:19.639
So I tried my best to enjoy it. It was hard all

00:16:19.639 --> 00:16:23.539
the way to the end. I had a good group of friends

00:16:23.539 --> 00:16:26.179
and I was able to play golf there as well. So

00:16:26.179 --> 00:16:27.980
I got to travel a bit and get away from the Academy

00:16:27.980 --> 00:16:30.500
quite a lot and mix it up with other college

00:16:30.500 --> 00:16:33.639
kids. Some, which was nice. Definitely a benefit.

00:16:34.000 --> 00:16:37.620
So yeah, I, I can look back on it now and realize

00:16:37.620 --> 00:16:39.980
all the wonderful things it did for me, the people

00:16:39.980 --> 00:16:43.259
being the number one thing, but you know, I don't

00:16:43.259 --> 00:16:46.120
know, maybe 30 % of my time there. I genuinely

00:16:46.120 --> 00:16:50.250
enjoyed. What about the actual kind of contract?

00:16:50.330 --> 00:16:52.509
If you go into West Point, is there an expectation

00:16:52.509 --> 00:16:56.470
of X amount of years of service after that? Right.

00:16:56.529 --> 00:16:58.789
So the way it works is the first two years you're

00:16:58.789 --> 00:17:01.110
there, you're generally, you're able to kind

00:17:01.110 --> 00:17:04.329
of leave, quit, transfer, whatever, with no obligation.

00:17:04.569 --> 00:17:06.730
But once you start the first day of your third

00:17:06.730 --> 00:17:10.430
year, your junior year, you incur a service commitment.

00:17:11.169 --> 00:17:13.470
And I believe it's the same now. It's five years

00:17:13.470 --> 00:17:16.009
of active duty service and then another three

00:17:16.009 --> 00:17:19.109
years of inactive ready reserve. So it's a total

00:17:19.109 --> 00:17:22.309
of eight year commitment to the military in exchange

00:17:22.309 --> 00:17:25.349
for your four years of college education, which,

00:17:25.390 --> 00:17:28.170
you know, looking at it with the perspective

00:17:28.170 --> 00:17:30.349
I have now is not a lot of time. You're still

00:17:30.349 --> 00:17:33.400
a very young person at the end of that. For an

00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:35.079
18 -year -old who's getting ready to go off to

00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:36.519
college and you're weighing your options, you

00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:38.740
think, well, geez, I got to do four years in

00:17:38.740 --> 00:17:41.119
the slammer at West Point, basically, and then

00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:43.220
another five years of active duty. So you're

00:17:43.220 --> 00:17:46.079
committing to at least nine years of living that

00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:49.779
Army lifestyle as an 18 -year -old. It seems

00:17:49.779 --> 00:17:52.559
like a big commitment. And I guess it is a big

00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:54.799
commitment, but it seems like an eternity when

00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:57.690
you're on the front end of it. What about from

00:17:57.690 --> 00:17:59.130
a leadership perspective? Obviously, we're going

00:17:59.130 --> 00:18:00.809
to talk about the book and what you're doing

00:18:00.809 --> 00:18:04.190
now. How well at that time did it prepare you

00:18:04.190 --> 00:18:07.490
for leadership just as an individual and obviously

00:18:07.490 --> 00:18:12.089
when you were in combat? So I think it does a

00:18:12.089 --> 00:18:13.970
good job and I think it does about as good a

00:18:13.970 --> 00:18:17.250
job as it could do. In helping you to understand

00:18:17.250 --> 00:18:19.609
the dynamics of leadership, in giving you lots

00:18:19.609 --> 00:18:21.730
of opportunities to be a leader in ways big and

00:18:21.730 --> 00:18:23.710
small, you know, whether you're kind of a leadership

00:18:23.710 --> 00:18:25.529
within the Corps of Cadets, you know, platoon

00:18:25.529 --> 00:18:28.190
leader or company commander or something, or

00:18:28.190 --> 00:18:30.710
just, you know, on the field of play or in the

00:18:30.710 --> 00:18:32.930
classroom, there are a lot of opportunities to

00:18:32.930 --> 00:18:35.809
be a leader and it's stressed all the time. So

00:18:35.809 --> 00:18:38.210
you get a lot beyond just kind of the academic

00:18:38.210 --> 00:18:40.390
study of leadership and the history of it. You

00:18:40.390 --> 00:18:43.869
get lots of reps, which is great. You know, the

00:18:43.869 --> 00:18:45.869
things that it can't prepare you for are just

00:18:45.869 --> 00:18:47.950
the kind of the real life scenarios you get into

00:18:47.950 --> 00:18:51.430
once you're out in the army that you almost have

00:18:51.430 --> 00:18:53.630
to experience to really know how to deal with

00:18:53.630 --> 00:18:56.309
it. So West Point is kind of a clean and polished

00:18:56.309 --> 00:18:58.170
version of the army. You know, the people you

00:18:58.170 --> 00:19:01.109
bump into there are largely, you know, very morally

00:19:01.109 --> 00:19:04.450
straight, accomplished people. You know, there's

00:19:04.450 --> 00:19:06.869
an expectation that you're not lie, cheat, steal,

00:19:07.029 --> 00:19:10.450
et cetera. You get out into the force and you've

00:19:10.450 --> 00:19:12.750
got 18 and 19 -year -old privates who are involved

00:19:12.750 --> 00:19:15.410
in any manner of shenanigans on the weekend that

00:19:15.410 --> 00:19:18.250
you've got to manage and clean up for. Sometimes

00:19:18.250 --> 00:19:20.829
you might have noncommissioned officers, some

00:19:20.829 --> 00:19:24.529
of whom will be tremendous, incredibly capable,

00:19:24.829 --> 00:19:27.670
people who will mentor you and bring you along.

00:19:27.910 --> 00:19:30.009
And you'll have others that are just not nearly

00:19:30.009 --> 00:19:33.089
as good. And I think at West Point, you're shielded

00:19:33.089 --> 00:19:36.240
a little from that. I think the folks who graduate

00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:38.380
from West Point and do really well out in the

00:19:38.380 --> 00:19:41.740
force are those who take seriously what they're

00:19:41.740 --> 00:19:44.279
learning at West Point and apply it, but also

00:19:44.279 --> 00:19:46.920
have the kind of mental flexibility or the interpersonal

00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:50.359
flexibility to get out into the Army and see

00:19:50.359 --> 00:19:52.799
it for what it really is and say, OK, you know,

00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:54.519
I've got to learn to operate in this environment

00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:56.819
because it's not going to be, you know, as clean.

00:19:57.119 --> 00:20:00.359
And, you know, textbook is what you might have

00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:04.019
learned during your years at the Academy. We

00:20:04.019 --> 00:20:07.279
see in the fire service that, for example, our,

00:20:07.420 --> 00:20:09.819
I mean, it's not leadership training, our officer

00:20:09.819 --> 00:20:12.119
training, you know, they have to have these officer

00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:15.400
classes and you rise through the ranks. And there

00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:17.440
are people that are very academically astute

00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:19.599
that do very well on these exams, but then you

00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:22.079
see them actually run a department or run a fire

00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:23.619
ground and you realize there's a disconnect.

00:20:24.299 --> 00:20:27.599
What is your observation as far as the educational

00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:31.359
route of leadership? And then, you know, what

00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:33.819
does that disconnect or how can we improve upon

00:20:33.819 --> 00:20:35.859
the fact that we take these people that have

00:20:35.859 --> 00:20:38.900
been in the educational on the educational ladder,

00:20:39.019 --> 00:20:42.259
but also give them those kind of moral courage,

00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:44.960
life skill elements that we see normally from

00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:46.859
the boots in the ground and the people that are

00:20:46.859 --> 00:20:49.960
actually in the trenches? Yeah, sure. I mean,

00:20:49.980 --> 00:20:53.480
I think some of it is on the front end when we

00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:55.460
can, I think, better educate people oftentimes

00:20:55.460 --> 00:20:58.119
about the realities of leadership and give them

00:20:58.119 --> 00:21:01.559
a bit more of a. realistic picture of these are

00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:02.819
the interpersonal things you're going to come

00:21:02.819 --> 00:21:05.299
up against. Here are some ways you can prepare

00:21:05.299 --> 00:21:07.220
yourself to be very clear about your priorities,

00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:09.960
your objectives, how you communicate those, that

00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:13.099
kind of thing. But I also think people just need

00:21:13.099 --> 00:21:15.400
practice. Leadership is something that can be

00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:18.559
learned and it can be improved. And you need

00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:21.099
some practical application, I think, to do that.

00:21:21.220 --> 00:21:23.839
And so whether you can do that in more of a simulated

00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:27.440
scenario in a schoolhouse environment, that's

00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:30.250
still pretty valuable. But I think those who

00:21:30.250 --> 00:21:33.410
are successful in making the leap are those who

00:21:33.410 --> 00:21:35.390
kind of understand that, look, this is a messy

00:21:35.390 --> 00:21:38.130
business that involves people. It's never going

00:21:38.130 --> 00:21:40.890
to be like it would be in a laboratory or a textbook.

00:21:41.769 --> 00:21:43.769
And maybe most importantly, I would say people

00:21:43.769 --> 00:21:45.750
need to understand like what it is you're trying

00:21:45.750 --> 00:21:49.650
to achieve. And so, you know, not that the ends

00:21:49.650 --> 00:21:52.190
always justify the means. I don't mean to put

00:21:52.190 --> 00:21:55.210
it that way, but I will say if you're not really

00:21:55.210 --> 00:21:56.630
clear on what it is you're trying to accomplish

00:21:56.630 --> 00:21:59.029
with your team. You're going to have a hard time

00:21:59.029 --> 00:22:01.690
being an effective leader. If you are really

00:22:01.690 --> 00:22:03.410
clear on what you're trying to accomplish with

00:22:03.410 --> 00:22:06.549
your team, you've got a much better chance to

00:22:06.549 --> 00:22:09.089
try something and have it not work and try something

00:22:09.089 --> 00:22:12.509
else or to incorporate the input of the people

00:22:12.509 --> 00:22:15.109
that you're working with and say, we are trying

00:22:15.109 --> 00:22:18.190
to accomplish this together. How do we do this?

00:22:18.809 --> 00:22:20.650
If you feel like you've got to sort it all out

00:22:20.650 --> 00:22:23.849
as an officer or a leader and have all the answers

00:22:23.849 --> 00:22:25.970
and have a plan going in and kind of execute

00:22:25.970 --> 00:22:29.579
against your vision. I just, you know, everything

00:22:29.579 --> 00:22:31.400
in life is this way, whether it's having kids

00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:34.440
or just living life as a grownup, it's not going

00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:36.099
to go the way you thought it was going to go.

00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:39.579
And your ability to adapt to the situation versus

00:22:39.579 --> 00:22:43.819
kind of operating your plan makes a big difference.

00:22:44.859 --> 00:22:47.180
That does make a lot of sense to me. When I think

00:22:47.180 --> 00:22:49.700
about the departments I worked for in the past,

00:22:49.819 --> 00:22:53.680
some were fantastic, but I don't remember there

00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:57.640
really being a clear. plan as far as where we

00:22:57.640 --> 00:22:59.359
want to be in one year where we want to be in

00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:01.339
five years and not just you know the department

00:23:01.339 --> 00:23:04.460
but the the safety and security of the city or

00:23:04.460 --> 00:23:07.299
county that we protected and so it really does

00:23:07.299 --> 00:23:10.799
then kind of um underline what i've heard even

00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:12.460
from the military like we would just you know

00:23:12.460 --> 00:23:16.359
um leave the fob go do our patrol and come back

00:23:16.359 --> 00:23:19.019
and do the same thing over and over again and

00:23:19.019 --> 00:23:20.680
when you don't have that purpose and i'll put

00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:23.470
it on a national level There's all these sides

00:23:23.470 --> 00:23:26.109
just fighting tooth and nail over the left and

00:23:26.109 --> 00:23:29.250
the right. But when has anyone sat in front of

00:23:29.250 --> 00:23:32.589
us and said, here is the obesity crisis. Here's

00:23:32.589 --> 00:23:34.549
how many people are overweight in this country.

00:23:34.730 --> 00:23:36.930
Here's how many people are dying from fentanyl.

00:23:37.130 --> 00:23:39.990
We are going to get this down by X amount of

00:23:39.990 --> 00:23:42.109
percent. As a nation, we've got to come together.

00:23:42.390 --> 00:23:45.029
You don't hear that messaging even from the national

00:23:45.029 --> 00:23:48.920
level. reflect on that i mean of course you're

00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:50.980
going to flounder if you've if you've got a compass

00:23:50.980 --> 00:23:52.559
that keeps spinning how the hell are you going

00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:55.500
to move forward yeah i don't think you've got

00:23:55.500 --> 00:23:58.680
any shot i mean it's a it's a complex world that

00:23:58.680 --> 00:24:00.519
we live in interpersonal dynamics are complex

00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:02.660
you know we live in a world now where we have

00:24:02.660 --> 00:24:06.500
access to virtually limitless information we

00:24:06.500 --> 00:24:09.039
have almost limitless options in how we spend

00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:12.470
our time spend our dollars make choices what

00:24:12.470 --> 00:24:14.009
we want to do for a living. We live in a very

00:24:14.009 --> 00:24:16.130
fortunate society here in the U .S. We have lots

00:24:16.130 --> 00:24:17.930
of social mobility, lots of options. You can

00:24:17.930 --> 00:24:20.349
kind of live wherever you want. And I think that's

00:24:20.349 --> 00:24:22.769
paralyzing for a lot of people, and it's definitely

00:24:22.769 --> 00:24:26.609
paralyzing for teams. So I think you start with

00:24:26.609 --> 00:24:29.349
the individual and you say, and I don't know

00:24:29.349 --> 00:24:31.089
where you get this. Everyone's a little different.

00:24:31.210 --> 00:24:33.150
Do you get this at church? Do you get it in school?

00:24:33.349 --> 00:24:34.829
Do you get it in the military? Do you get it

00:24:34.829 --> 00:24:37.390
from your parents? Some combination thereof.

00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:40.440
If you don't have a reasonable idea of who you

00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:42.240
want to be in the world and what you want to

00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:44.599
stand for and what you're prioritizing in your

00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:48.500
life, you don't have much chance at being very

00:24:48.500 --> 00:24:50.339
good at it for the long haul. Or even if you're

00:24:50.339 --> 00:24:52.059
one of these exceptionally talented people that's

00:24:52.059 --> 00:24:53.900
kind of good at everything, I don't think you

00:24:53.900 --> 00:24:55.779
have much chance of being very satisfied or fulfilled

00:24:55.779 --> 00:24:58.839
in your life or having relationships that last

00:24:58.839 --> 00:25:01.839
long in your life if you are not clear about

00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:05.000
what it is you are trying to do with your life.

00:25:05.180 --> 00:25:07.460
And then you need to share that with your partner.

00:25:07.869 --> 00:25:09.650
Right. I mean, Brandon and I had a meeting in

00:25:09.650 --> 00:25:12.450
December where we spent a few days getting really

00:25:12.450 --> 00:25:14.410
clear on who we want to be as a business and

00:25:14.410 --> 00:25:16.210
what we're trying to achieve. And it felt amazing

00:25:16.210 --> 00:25:18.990
coming out of that. And I thought, wow, my wife

00:25:18.990 --> 00:25:20.910
and I probably need to replicate this process

00:25:20.910 --> 00:25:23.809
so that we can have this level of clarity on

00:25:23.809 --> 00:25:26.470
who we're trying to be as a family and what we're

00:25:26.470 --> 00:25:28.470
trying to give to our kids and community, etc.

00:25:29.970 --> 00:25:34.369
So, yeah, if you can't simplify some of that.

00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:36.880
in a way that you understand it and you can share

00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:39.640
it consistently with people, you just don't have

00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:42.339
much of a shot at people showing up every day

00:25:42.339 --> 00:25:45.680
with focus, with intention, with energy to do

00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:47.900
the things that you need to do. Because even

00:25:47.900 --> 00:25:49.400
if they want to do great things, even if they're

00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:52.500
generally motivated people, and if you can't

00:25:52.500 --> 00:25:55.119
focus that in, you're not going to get the consistency

00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:57.240
you need and you're not going to get the results

00:25:57.240 --> 00:25:59.579
you're looking for. Yeah. I'm just thinking of

00:25:59.579 --> 00:26:02.819
one of those old Viking ships where they've got...

00:26:02.910 --> 00:26:04.450
you know, the slaves or whoever it was that were

00:26:04.450 --> 00:26:06.710
rowing, but you've got them all facing different

00:26:06.710 --> 00:26:08.589
directions. They're all working really hard,

00:26:08.650 --> 00:26:11.289
but the ship's actually not going in the specific

00:26:11.289 --> 00:26:13.289
direction that you all agree upon. I think that's

00:26:13.289 --> 00:26:16.029
an interesting analogy. You know, it's not about

00:26:16.029 --> 00:26:18.230
not putting the effort in. It's like directing

00:26:18.230 --> 00:26:20.710
the effort to a place that actually makes sense.

00:26:22.430 --> 00:26:24.630
Yeah. I mean, just think about, you know, going

00:26:24.630 --> 00:26:28.779
for a hike or a run. You know, direction matters,

00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:31.240
speed matters, but direction maybe matters more,

00:26:31.339 --> 00:26:32.720
especially if you're out in the woods. I mean,

00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:35.660
you can run yourself to death getting lost. I

00:26:35.660 --> 00:26:38.099
mean, you have to have some mechanism by which

00:26:38.099 --> 00:26:41.319
you choose a path and mark the trail and stay

00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:44.299
on course. And again, I'm not here to tell anybody

00:26:44.299 --> 00:26:47.200
what that should be, but I would say with a lot

00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.640
of confidence that if you're not taking the time

00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:52.579
to think hard about where you're trying to go

00:26:52.579 --> 00:26:54.319
and why it's important for you to get there.

00:26:56.240 --> 00:26:59.519
Not going to have much luck. Absolutely. Well,

00:26:59.539 --> 00:27:02.319
speaking of paths, you're in West Point. Walk

00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:05.119
me into which unit you became attached to. And

00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:08.559
then I'd love to hear pre 9 -11 what you guys

00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:13.160
were doing. Sure. Yeah. So I graduated with the

00:27:13.160 --> 00:27:15.339
intention of doing my five year commitment and

00:27:15.339 --> 00:27:17.680
moving on to kind of get a real job in the real

00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:21.259
world. And I chose to be an armor officer. So

00:27:21.259 --> 00:27:24.700
a tank platoon leader was my first job. and I

00:27:24.700 --> 00:27:26.759
selected the 1st Cavalry Division in Fort Hood,

00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:30.160
Texas, candidly because a lot of my friends were

00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:31.740
going there, and I wanted to have a really good

00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:33.839
time during my five years in the Army, and I

00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:36.079
wanted to be near my friends, and I wanted to

00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:37.920
be in the 1st Cavalry Division because pre -9

00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:40.319
-11, they were one of the Army units that was

00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:42.619
still doing quite a lot of stuff. They were doing

00:27:42.619 --> 00:27:44.740
a lot of training deployments and going to Kosovo

00:27:44.740 --> 00:27:47.039
and things like that, and so I wanted to do some

00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:51.660
things while I was in the service. And I graduated

00:27:51.660 --> 00:27:55.240
on June 2nd of 2001, thinking that I was going

00:27:55.240 --> 00:27:57.359
to go down to Fort Hood and shoot some tanks

00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:00.160
and maybe do some training and go to a lot of

00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:03.079
concerts in Austin and drink beer with my friends,

00:28:03.259 --> 00:28:07.960
some of which I still did, definitely. But then

00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:09.819
9 -11 happened while I was still on my officer

00:28:09.819 --> 00:28:12.000
basic course. So I was in the motor pool at Fort

00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:16.660
Knox, Kentucky, doing weapons training and doing

00:28:16.660 --> 00:28:21.079
my officer basic stuff. And 9 -11 happens about,

00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:23.880
I guess, halfway, partway through that course.

00:28:24.859 --> 00:28:27.779
And the complexion of things changed immediately,

00:28:27.940 --> 00:28:30.180
as anyone listening that was alive then would

00:28:30.180 --> 00:28:33.640
know. The trajectory of my service and my life

00:28:33.640 --> 00:28:36.059
changed dramatically in ways that I didn't understand

00:28:36.059 --> 00:28:40.839
then. And my feelings toward service changed

00:28:40.839 --> 00:28:43.039
a lot. I think like a lot of people, even those

00:28:43.039 --> 00:28:45.279
who weren't in the service at the time, many

00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:48.259
of us felt a really strong call to... put on

00:28:48.259 --> 00:28:51.920
the uniform and fight the enemies of our country

00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:55.980
and to go to faraway places if we needed to do

00:28:55.980 --> 00:28:59.299
that. So I went from thinking, hey, I'll do my

00:28:59.299 --> 00:29:00.980
five years or my four years or whatever down

00:29:00.980 --> 00:29:03.039
at Fort Hood and try to have some fun and do

00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:06.660
a good job, but prepare myself for the next chapter

00:29:06.660 --> 00:29:10.140
of my life to feeling much differently and thinking,

00:29:10.200 --> 00:29:11.420
hey, I got to figure out a way to get in the

00:29:11.420 --> 00:29:13.319
fight. I got to figure out how to get over there

00:29:13.319 --> 00:29:16.599
and get involved in this at the earliest possible

00:29:16.599 --> 00:29:19.650
moment. Well, talk to me about that actual day.

00:29:19.789 --> 00:29:24.150
What was that day like through your eyes? Yeah,

00:29:24.190 --> 00:29:29.650
so I was 22 years old. I had been married in

00:29:29.650 --> 00:29:33.809
July, right after I got out of West Point. So

00:29:33.809 --> 00:29:36.589
I was very young and naive and had a young wife

00:29:36.589 --> 00:29:40.849
and was in my officer basic course. And I remember

00:29:40.849 --> 00:29:42.609
we were doing the assembly and disassembly of

00:29:42.609 --> 00:29:45.440
the .50 cal and the .240 machine gun. as part

00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:49.740
of a tank crew gunnery skills test and one of

00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:51.880
our instructors just came in and said hey just

00:29:51.880 --> 00:29:54.119
so you guys know a plane has hit one of the twin

00:29:54.119 --> 00:29:57.220
towers and it seemed at the moment like uh like

00:29:57.220 --> 00:30:00.480
an accident maybe a small plane or a maybe a

00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:02.579
commercial plane but there's there been some

00:30:02.579 --> 00:30:04.839
sort of accident and so we just kind of continued

00:30:04.839 --> 00:30:07.980
training for a while and then um then a second

00:30:07.980 --> 00:30:11.460
plane hit And it was a terrorist attack. And

00:30:11.460 --> 00:30:13.900
I think we still kind of thought these are small

00:30:13.900 --> 00:30:16.119
private planes or something that terrorists have

00:30:16.119 --> 00:30:19.319
flown in, like a van bomb that was at the World

00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:22.680
Trade Center years prior. And then eventually

00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:24.200
they pulled us all into a room and said, hey,

00:30:24.220 --> 00:30:26.099
here's what's going on. We think we're no kidding

00:30:26.099 --> 00:30:29.160
under attack. This is a coordinated and large

00:30:29.160 --> 00:30:32.759
terrorist attack. And we're going to send you

00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:34.319
home for the day. And you're going to stay at

00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:35.759
home and wait by the phone. We're going to give

00:30:35.759 --> 00:30:37.299
you further instructions about your lockdown.

00:30:37.539 --> 00:30:40.339
Don't go anywhere. whatever and we're like oh

00:30:40.339 --> 00:30:44.380
my god so we went home and i remember getting

00:30:44.380 --> 00:30:46.480
home and my then wife was kind of waiting like

00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:48.920
just dismayed like are you did you hear about

00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:52.299
this and we went inside in time to watch the

00:30:52.299 --> 00:30:56.140
towers fall on the live news which was surreal

00:30:56.140 --> 00:31:00.539
to see that um yeah and you have just a huge

00:31:00.539 --> 00:31:03.559
pit in your stomach and a lot of uncertainty

00:31:03.559 --> 00:31:06.720
and a lot of anger um You know, we spent the

00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:09.059
next many, many weeks. I was at Fort Knox, which,

00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:11.140
you know, wasn't the most important army base

00:31:11.140 --> 00:31:14.420
in the world, but because it's Fort Knox, they

00:31:14.420 --> 00:31:16.500
really locked us down super tight because they're

00:31:16.500 --> 00:31:19.019
like, if we're a security breach at Fort Knox,

00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:22.019
that would potentially damage the national psyche

00:31:22.019 --> 00:31:24.660
or something. So, you know, we just stayed on

00:31:24.660 --> 00:31:27.579
base and went to the gym and trained. And, you

00:31:27.579 --> 00:31:30.039
know, every Friday we'd order pizza from the

00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:32.400
shopette and buy some beer from the class six

00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:37.579
and hang out with our friends. That was really

00:31:37.579 --> 00:31:40.160
it for a while. We all went and gave blood and

00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:41.799
did all the things we were all doing back then.

00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:45.279
We knew whatever we were going to do next was

00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:47.039
probably pretty serious, whatever it was going

00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:49.619
to look like. I was there until, I guess, about

00:31:49.619 --> 00:31:52.160
December until I graduated that course and then

00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:56.079
went on to my unit. Talk to me about the next

00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:57.900
few years because I know you didn't deploy immediately.

00:31:58.200 --> 00:32:03.190
There was a lag. Yeah, so I got down to Fort

00:32:03.190 --> 00:32:05.990
Hood, Texas, I guess in December of 01, maybe

00:32:05.990 --> 00:32:11.849
January of 02, I got to my unit. And it was good

00:32:11.849 --> 00:32:13.970
to be there, but I was a little disenfranchised

00:32:13.970 --> 00:32:17.769
early on just because I was so young and full

00:32:17.769 --> 00:32:20.109
of vim and vigor and just wanted to get overseas.

00:32:21.049 --> 00:32:24.730
And by then... I'd been watching on CNN as the

00:32:24.730 --> 00:32:26.789
special forces guys had gone into northern Afghanistan

00:32:26.789 --> 00:32:29.009
and toppled the Taliban with the Northern Alliance

00:32:29.009 --> 00:32:33.470
riding on horseback, etc. And people I knew even

00:32:33.470 --> 00:32:35.890
were going over there. Not many, but some people

00:32:35.890 --> 00:32:39.009
I knew from West Point were with the 101st Airborne,

00:32:39.069 --> 00:32:40.569
the 10th Mountain, and they were going over to

00:32:40.569 --> 00:32:44.190
Afghanistan with their infantry units. And I

00:32:44.190 --> 00:32:46.349
was spending a lot of my time in the motor pool,

00:32:46.470 --> 00:32:50.390
working on tanks, doing mechanized stuff. And

00:32:50.390 --> 00:32:56.619
I just was... So eager to be in the fight. I

00:32:56.619 --> 00:32:58.460
love being a tank platoon leader. I love my soldiers.

00:32:58.680 --> 00:33:01.720
I mean, it was incredibly fun at times, you know,

00:33:01.740 --> 00:33:03.920
driving and shooting those tanks and going out

00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:06.200
and training. But it was clear that that unit

00:33:06.200 --> 00:33:08.180
was not going to be in Afghanistan anytime soon.

00:33:08.220 --> 00:33:09.660
There are basically no roads in Afghanistan.

00:33:09.819 --> 00:33:11.720
There's no rail. There's no port. Like, you're

00:33:11.720 --> 00:33:13.900
not getting tanks there. So we were not going

00:33:13.900 --> 00:33:18.240
to be in the fight. And based on that and what

00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:21.319
I was seeing on CNN, I went to the special forces

00:33:21.319 --> 00:33:23.819
recruiter's office very early on and kind of

00:33:23.819 --> 00:33:26.519
said, Hey, what do I need to do to try out and

00:33:26.519 --> 00:33:30.400
do this? And they were really, they were nice

00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:31.839
guys and they were good to me. And they're like,

00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:33.319
well, here's how the pipeline works. And here's

00:33:33.319 --> 00:33:34.980
the timeline. And here's generally how it goes.

00:33:35.059 --> 00:33:37.839
And here's a training pamphlet. You can start

00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:41.400
doing PT. And I went back probably three or four

00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:43.299
times until they finally said like, Hey, you're

00:33:43.299 --> 00:33:45.400
just, it's too early. You can't come here yet.

00:33:45.420 --> 00:33:47.059
Go be a platoon leader. You have work to do.

00:33:48.779 --> 00:33:51.160
go take care of your business and you can come

00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:54.640
talk to us in a couple of years. And I took their

00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:57.319
advice. After about a year in a tank platoon,

00:33:57.440 --> 00:33:59.539
I got selected to be the brigade reconnaissance

00:33:59.539 --> 00:34:01.839
team leader, a platoon leader at what we called

00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:05.299
the BRT back then, which was kind of a light

00:34:05.299 --> 00:34:09.119
platoon that did reconnaissance out in front

00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:10.860
of a brigade combat team. So you think about

00:34:10.860 --> 00:34:13.980
5 ,000 people in a brigade combat team. This

00:34:13.980 --> 00:34:15.880
is the unit that's out in front of them doing

00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:18.679
reconnaissance, surveillance, et cetera. on foot,

00:34:18.760 --> 00:34:21.619
on Humvees, that kind of thing. So that really

00:34:21.619 --> 00:34:23.739
appealed to me. That was exciting. It was kind

00:34:23.739 --> 00:34:26.800
of an elite unit within the organization, really

00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:30.599
good soldiers, kind of a cool mission. I liked

00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:33.559
that a lot. And so I went there and we started

00:34:33.559 --> 00:34:35.880
training. And by then there was kind of the bubbling

00:34:35.880 --> 00:34:37.619
rumors that, hey, there's maybe going to be a

00:34:37.619 --> 00:34:40.760
war in Iraq. And we'd always been told that if

00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:42.940
there was a ground war in a place like Iraq,

00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:45.380
the 1st Cavalry Division would be very much a

00:34:45.380 --> 00:34:47.099
part of that plan. Like we would be kind of the

00:34:47.099 --> 00:34:49.699
mechanized hammer that would come in. And so

00:34:49.699 --> 00:34:53.800
we were very serious in, you know, 02 about getting

00:34:53.800 --> 00:34:55.559
ready to go over and we're going to fight this

00:34:55.559 --> 00:34:57.659
war in Iraq and topple Saddam's regime. And,

00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:00.860
you know, it wasn't directly connected to 9 -11

00:35:00.860 --> 00:35:02.739
or the Taliban. And I think some of us sort of

00:35:02.739 --> 00:35:05.579
knew that, but we're like, whatever, like, let's

00:35:05.579 --> 00:35:08.039
go. Let's go fight the enemies of America, wherever

00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:13.449
they may be. And so when that war started to

00:35:13.449 --> 00:35:15.789
kick off, you know, very end of 02, we started

00:35:15.789 --> 00:35:17.409
finding out kind of what it might look like.

00:35:17.469 --> 00:35:20.809
Beginning of 03, units start deploying and our

00:35:20.809 --> 00:35:23.269
number doesn't get called. Our sister unit, the

00:35:23.269 --> 00:35:27.690
4th ID across base, for I think political reasons,

00:35:27.829 --> 00:35:30.730
candidly, got called up to go over there and

00:35:30.730 --> 00:35:32.590
be part of the initial invasion. And we did not.

00:35:33.250 --> 00:35:36.969
And that was really devastating. We just assumed

00:35:36.969 --> 00:35:39.539
we would go. We were ready to go. And then we

00:35:39.539 --> 00:35:41.780
didn't get called to go. And so we stayed home

00:35:41.780 --> 00:35:44.119
and we watched the ground war in Iraq unfold

00:35:44.119 --> 00:35:48.239
with the Marines and the 3rd ID charging up through

00:35:48.239 --> 00:35:52.159
Nasiriyah and up into Baghdad. And again, a lot

00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:53.960
of people I knew, my friends from West Point

00:35:53.960 --> 00:35:56.559
were platoon leaders and they were getting their

00:35:56.559 --> 00:35:58.400
combat patch on the right shoulder and earning

00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:01.300
their stripes. And it was hard to stay home and

00:36:01.300 --> 00:36:05.820
watch it and just kind of keep training. I guess

00:36:05.820 --> 00:36:09.510
the summer of 03. we got word that we would be

00:36:09.510 --> 00:36:12.110
going over in the beginning of 04. And so we

00:36:12.110 --> 00:36:14.570
thought, well, we'll go, we'll still get to deploy,

00:36:14.710 --> 00:36:17.670
but war's going to be over. You know, we'll just

00:36:17.670 --> 00:36:21.489
be kind of hanging out, mop up duty, checkpoints,

00:36:21.650 --> 00:36:26.250
you know, that kind of thing. And so that's what

00:36:26.250 --> 00:36:28.469
we thought we were going to do when we finally

00:36:28.469 --> 00:36:30.289
deployed, I guess, probably the 5th of January

00:36:30.289 --> 00:36:34.610
of 2004, our unit got on a plane and headed over

00:36:34.610 --> 00:36:38.579
there. you know, for our rotation. And of course

00:36:38.579 --> 00:36:40.639
it turned out quite, quite a lot different than

00:36:40.639 --> 00:36:43.780
we expected. I want to get into, you know, the

00:36:43.780 --> 00:36:46.159
actual deployment before you hit on a point where,

00:36:46.179 --> 00:36:49.119
you know, you're expecting to go earlier and

00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:52.360
then another unit is sent and you stay back and

00:36:52.360 --> 00:36:55.739
you keep training. There's a lot of people listening

00:36:55.739 --> 00:36:57.760
now. They're in law enforcement, they're in fire,

00:36:57.900 --> 00:37:00.519
they're in EMS and, you know, their neighboring

00:37:00.519 --> 00:37:03.500
agency had that, you know. bomb burning fire

00:37:03.500 --> 00:37:06.119
or you know god forbid a school shooting whatever

00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:10.260
those big career events um and there's a there's

00:37:10.260 --> 00:37:12.860
a danger of complacency when maybe you don't

00:37:12.860 --> 00:37:14.699
have those target hazards and those frequency

00:37:14.699 --> 00:37:18.079
that other agencies might have fdmy for example

00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:22.280
talk to me about your perspective on diligence

00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:24.780
of training when you are in an environment that

00:37:24.780 --> 00:37:26.639
maybe you're not being deployed, maybe you're

00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:29.539
not seeing all these big incidents, but the importance

00:37:29.539 --> 00:37:32.820
of the preparation still, regardless of the frequency

00:37:32.820 --> 00:37:36.420
of the event. Yeah, that's a really good point.

00:37:36.539 --> 00:37:38.320
And I think we benefited from knowing that we

00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:40.380
probably were going to go and we got to see some

00:37:40.380 --> 00:37:42.800
of what was happening over there. And so, you

00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:44.980
know, it was front and center in our minds that

00:37:44.980 --> 00:37:46.679
we were probably going to have to put some of

00:37:46.679 --> 00:37:51.019
our training into play. But James, I think that's

00:37:51.019 --> 00:37:53.099
everything. I think about everything in life

00:37:53.099 --> 00:37:55.980
that way now, by the way. And Brandon and I talk

00:37:55.980 --> 00:37:59.119
to people all the time that we cannot predict

00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:01.639
what the future holds for us. You can't predict

00:38:01.639 --> 00:38:04.460
an uncertain future, but you can prepare for

00:38:04.460 --> 00:38:07.800
an uncertain future. You have to prepare. And

00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:09.219
you probably shouldn't waste much time trying

00:38:09.219 --> 00:38:11.880
to predict because you just don't know. But you

00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:14.340
can prepare for some of the eventualities of

00:38:14.340 --> 00:38:18.900
an uncertain future. And you just don't know

00:38:18.900 --> 00:38:22.820
when you're going to be called. to do that. And

00:38:22.820 --> 00:38:27.559
so what I would recommend to everybody is what

00:38:27.559 --> 00:38:30.199
are the baseline fundamental things that you

00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:32.840
know you need to have, that you need to possess

00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:36.000
in order to perform at a very high level should

00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:38.239
one of those peak kind of apex moments occur?

00:38:38.900 --> 00:38:40.380
Because this happened to us even when we were

00:38:40.380 --> 00:38:42.039
on the deployment. Even when we were downrange,

00:38:42.199 --> 00:38:44.079
we would see a certain element from a unit would

00:38:44.079 --> 00:38:46.679
get involved in a firefight or get engaged in

00:38:46.679 --> 00:38:48.340
an IED attack or something, and you would be

00:38:48.340 --> 00:38:50.449
jealous of those people. in those moments. Cause

00:38:50.449 --> 00:38:52.869
you wanted to be in the fight. You wanted to

00:38:52.869 --> 00:38:54.849
be in the mix. You wanted to kind of, and this

00:38:54.849 --> 00:38:57.469
goes every culture throughout mankind has been

00:38:57.469 --> 00:38:59.730
this way. You wanted to prove yourself in battle.

00:38:59.809 --> 00:39:02.329
You wanted to feel what that, what that was like.

00:39:03.150 --> 00:39:05.309
You know, Brandon sometimes jokes that we, we

00:39:05.309 --> 00:39:06.849
were, we were all a bunch of kids who wanted

00:39:06.849 --> 00:39:08.829
ice cream. We all ended up with a, with a cold

00:39:08.829 --> 00:39:12.329
headache, you know? But to go, to go back to

00:39:12.329 --> 00:39:15.510
your question for us, it's shoot, move and communicate.

00:39:16.030 --> 00:39:18.829
Right. Can you master the fundamentals? For the

00:39:18.829 --> 00:39:20.590
Ranger Regiment, it's the big five, you know,

00:39:20.590 --> 00:39:22.570
physical fitness, medical tasks, small unit tactics.

00:39:23.150 --> 00:39:27.250
What are those things? And you don't know which

00:39:27.250 --> 00:39:29.670
one of those might be the one you need most in

00:39:29.670 --> 00:39:32.369
any particular moment. But if you look at any

00:39:32.369 --> 00:39:34.090
elite organization, at least across the U .S.

00:39:34.110 --> 00:39:37.010
military that I'm familiar with, they are absolutely

00:39:37.010 --> 00:39:40.750
brilliant in the basics. And so if you think

00:39:40.750 --> 00:39:43.610
you need to spend all your time on some wazoo,

00:39:43.610 --> 00:39:47.059
you know, high tech, high speed. you know, stuff,

00:39:47.320 --> 00:39:49.699
you know, maybe at the edges, that's going to

00:39:49.699 --> 00:39:52.500
help you. But ultimately it's going to be, do

00:39:52.500 --> 00:39:54.659
you have the physical skills, strength, and stamina

00:39:54.659 --> 00:39:57.699
to do what you need to do when the moment calls

00:39:57.699 --> 00:39:59.880
for it? Do you have the relationship and the

00:39:59.880 --> 00:40:01.679
teamwork with the people around you to where

00:40:01.679 --> 00:40:04.760
something can go wrong and you can still find

00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:06.920
a way to win? That's another thing we talk a

00:40:06.920 --> 00:40:09.019
lot about. If you don't have that, that relationship

00:40:09.019 --> 00:40:11.989
with your teammates. Things can fall apart pretty

00:40:11.989 --> 00:40:14.250
quickly. And we've seen lots of teams. And if

00:40:14.250 --> 00:40:15.949
you're a sports fan, you'll recognize this right

00:40:15.949 --> 00:40:19.110
away. Lots of teams with incredible levels of

00:40:19.110 --> 00:40:22.869
skill and talent who, when things start to go

00:40:22.869 --> 00:40:24.710
a little sideways, they completely fall apart

00:40:24.710 --> 00:40:27.090
because they don't have the kind of relationship

00:40:27.090 --> 00:40:28.969
and trust they need to be effective in those

00:40:28.969 --> 00:40:31.650
moments. And you'll see other teams that can

00:40:31.650 --> 00:40:34.429
weather a bad break, a bad call, a mishap, an

00:40:34.429 --> 00:40:36.909
unforeseen thing that comes in. And they can,

00:40:37.050 --> 00:40:38.769
what we would do, we would call it winning ugly.

00:40:39.150 --> 00:40:41.210
You find a way to win even when things don't

00:40:41.210 --> 00:40:45.670
go according to plan. So investing in your physical

00:40:45.670 --> 00:40:47.650
skills, strength, stamina, investing in your

00:40:47.650 --> 00:40:51.429
relationships and your teamwork, you just can't

00:40:51.429 --> 00:40:53.469
do enough of that. And you don't really have

00:40:53.469 --> 00:40:55.809
to get too specific with the scenarios, I don't

00:40:55.809 --> 00:40:59.130
think, at least in my chosen profession, if you're

00:40:59.130 --> 00:41:01.599
really brilliant at the basics. This is what

00:41:01.599 --> 00:41:03.980
I struggle with about my profession. It's interesting

00:41:03.980 --> 00:41:05.780
because I've had so many of the special forces,

00:41:05.780 --> 00:41:08.360
special operations from around the world. And

00:41:08.360 --> 00:41:11.059
if they're not familiar with the first responder

00:41:11.059 --> 00:41:13.239
professions, it blows them away that most of

00:41:13.239 --> 00:41:16.119
us are not held to any sort of fitness standard

00:41:16.119 --> 00:41:18.579
whatsoever. And it's not just at the administration

00:41:18.579 --> 00:41:21.380
level. It's unions fighting it. It's all kinds

00:41:21.380 --> 00:41:23.800
of people. And there's this perception of if

00:41:23.800 --> 00:41:25.659
we introduce one, oh, you're trying to take our

00:41:25.659 --> 00:41:28.199
jobs. It's like, well, you know, the bar was

00:41:28.199 --> 00:41:30.360
set at the front door. No one was telling you

00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:32.719
that you'd be sitting around eating Cheetos the

00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:35.300
rest of your career, you know. But when you put

00:41:35.300 --> 00:41:37.860
that into a real world scenario, just like, you

00:41:37.860 --> 00:41:41.460
know, how you've described, the average firefighter

00:41:41.460 --> 00:41:43.420
is probably these days in America run a lot of

00:41:43.420 --> 00:41:46.920
EMS calls, maybe a single story, two story house.

00:41:47.320 --> 00:41:49.599
But occasionally they'll get the Grenfell fire

00:41:49.599 --> 00:41:51.900
like London did, you know, where now you're having

00:41:51.900 --> 00:41:54.860
to climb 10, 15, 20 floors before you even start

00:41:54.860 --> 00:41:58.829
fighting fire. And so I am a huge proponent of

00:41:58.829 --> 00:42:01.469
fitness standards being put in, just being maintained.

00:42:01.730 --> 00:42:04.030
They're put in when we go to fire academy, just

00:42:04.030 --> 00:42:06.690
holding us to that level. Because not only, as

00:42:06.690 --> 00:42:08.789
you said, is it ready the individual for the

00:42:08.789 --> 00:42:11.750
worst case scenario, but it also forges longevity.

00:42:12.050 --> 00:42:14.690
It forges a healthy retirement. And the fact

00:42:14.690 --> 00:42:16.869
that there's such resistance in the first responder

00:42:16.869 --> 00:42:22.409
professions blows my mind. Yeah, it's, I mean,

00:42:22.429 --> 00:42:25.230
I think the kind of political administrative

00:42:25.230 --> 00:42:27.829
aspects of this they make sense i can understand

00:42:27.829 --> 00:42:30.389
what's going on there but i'm with you in that

00:42:30.389 --> 00:42:33.050
show me a dimension of your life that's not improved

00:42:33.050 --> 00:42:35.489
by being physically fit i mean your cognitive

00:42:35.489 --> 00:42:38.030
ability your decision making ability your overall

00:42:38.030 --> 00:42:41.469
health you're going to show up for work more

00:42:41.469 --> 00:42:43.250
often you're going to feel better in retirement

00:42:43.250 --> 00:42:45.630
you're going to have much better durability all

00:42:45.630 --> 00:42:47.849
of that before we even talk about your performance

00:42:47.849 --> 00:42:50.050
in the heat of the moment in one of these kind

00:42:50.050 --> 00:42:55.519
of apex events so I think it makes a lot of sense.

00:42:56.099 --> 00:42:59.159
I can appreciate that if you're a patrol officer,

00:42:59.340 --> 00:43:01.619
you know, out there working kind of the beat

00:43:01.619 --> 00:43:05.639
every day, what you need and what you need to

00:43:05.639 --> 00:43:08.039
prioritize in terms of your time and skills is

00:43:08.039 --> 00:43:10.519
different than if you're a full -time SWAT team

00:43:10.519 --> 00:43:14.239
member, right? So that makes sense. But, you

00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:15.820
know, if you're a wildland firefighter, that's

00:43:15.820 --> 00:43:17.860
a little different than if you're kind of making

00:43:17.860 --> 00:43:22.079
EMS calls in a metro. One of the things I like

00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:24.019
so much about CrossFit, and you and I have talked

00:43:24.019 --> 00:43:26.460
a little about this in the past, and Greg Glassman

00:43:26.460 --> 00:43:28.960
said this very early on, the needs of an Olympic

00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:31.320
athlete and my grandmother vary by degree and

00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:34.500
not by type. And so, sure, I'm willing to accept

00:43:34.500 --> 00:43:36.900
that somebody who's out patrolling the streets

00:43:36.900 --> 00:43:40.300
every day, dealing with God knows variety of

00:43:40.300 --> 00:43:43.639
things, their physical skill, strength, stamina

00:43:43.639 --> 00:43:47.699
not called into task that often. I can appreciate

00:43:47.699 --> 00:43:49.739
that they may not be prioritizing that as much

00:43:49.739 --> 00:43:53.139
as someone who is using it on a daily or a weekly

00:43:53.139 --> 00:43:57.340
basis, but does not still have a high foundation.

00:43:57.780 --> 00:44:01.460
The floor should still be pretty high because

00:44:01.460 --> 00:44:03.780
you may need to use it and it's going to make

00:44:03.780 --> 00:44:07.559
you better in every aspect. So does the degree

00:44:07.559 --> 00:44:09.619
to which you need to be an absolute physical

00:44:09.619 --> 00:44:12.940
stud vary based on the job and the scenario?

00:44:13.099 --> 00:44:15.659
Sure. It can vary by degree, but I don't think

00:44:15.659 --> 00:44:19.039
it varies by type. Absolutely. Well, I have this

00:44:19.039 --> 00:44:20.820
a lot with the SWAT guys that come on. I mean,

00:44:20.840 --> 00:44:22.900
they have a physical standard that they have

00:44:22.900 --> 00:44:25.500
to maintain. It's funny because I talk to a lot

00:44:25.500 --> 00:44:29.019
of ocean lifeguards too. And I put the discussions

00:44:29.019 --> 00:44:31.239
that we have in our profession, imagine if that

00:44:31.239 --> 00:44:34.039
was the ocean lifeguard, an ocean lifeguard that's

00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:37.019
now 80 pounds overweight and says, it's not fair

00:44:37.019 --> 00:44:39.239
that you make him do a swim test. How would that

00:44:39.239 --> 00:44:41.789
work? You know, it wouldn't. But even excuse

00:44:41.789 --> 00:44:45.030
me, even with our regular patrol officers, for

00:44:45.030 --> 00:44:48.809
example, the SWAT men and women know really roughly

00:44:48.809 --> 00:44:51.630
what they are going to see when they they breach

00:44:51.630 --> 00:44:53.210
a door, you know, when they serve a warrant,

00:44:53.309 --> 00:44:54.969
whatever it is, they're already prepared for

00:44:54.969 --> 00:44:57.130
extreme violence. And then they taper it down

00:44:57.130 --> 00:45:00.030
if that's not called for. As you said, your average

00:45:00.030 --> 00:45:03.309
police officer might have done 19 traffic stops

00:45:03.309 --> 00:45:05.550
that day in the 20th one. And it's going to be

00:45:05.550 --> 00:45:08.349
a gun drawn. And now you're in a fight for your

00:45:08.349 --> 00:45:10.579
life. So I would argue, like you said, I mean,

00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:13.280
this is a beautiful illustration. Yes, there

00:45:13.280 --> 00:45:15.519
might be a slightly lower degree, but that degree

00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:18.679
seems needs to be extremely high because that

00:45:18.679 --> 00:45:21.039
patrol officer has no idea when they're going

00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:23.760
to have to go from zero to 100. The SWAT team

00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:25.579
have a pretty good idea when they're going to.

00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:29.000
Well, you might you're likely to be there by

00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:33.139
yourself. Right. And so I think this is probably

00:45:33.139 --> 00:45:35.739
and I don't know your world hardly at all, but

00:45:35.739 --> 00:45:38.280
I would imagine. When I think about my time in

00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:40.039
the military and the special operations community,

00:45:40.300 --> 00:45:42.219
one of the beautiful things about being there

00:45:42.219 --> 00:45:44.719
was that it's your job to go in and train every

00:45:44.719 --> 00:45:47.400
day. So we didn't have to go do our jobs that

00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:49.039
often. If you think about it, we got to spend

00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:51.519
the vast majority of our time training and preparing

00:45:51.519 --> 00:45:54.000
to do our jobs and then a small percentage of

00:45:54.000 --> 00:45:56.400
our time actually doing it. You know, when you're

00:45:56.400 --> 00:45:58.139
in the first responder community, it's basically

00:45:58.139 --> 00:46:00.739
flipped. You know, your on -duty time is almost

00:46:00.739 --> 00:46:03.840
all kind of doing your job and then a smaller

00:46:03.840 --> 00:46:06.130
amount of it is training and preparation. So

00:46:06.130 --> 00:46:08.289
I think that for me, if I were kind of king for

00:46:08.289 --> 00:46:10.730
a day, I would think, how do we create space

00:46:10.730 --> 00:46:13.489
for more training and preparation? So if you're

00:46:13.489 --> 00:46:15.090
going to say it's not fair to have the standard,

00:46:15.289 --> 00:46:18.710
perhaps that's true based on the lifestyle that

00:46:18.710 --> 00:46:20.210
some of these people are leading. So how do we

00:46:20.210 --> 00:46:23.289
reframe that in a way that allows them to have

00:46:23.289 --> 00:46:25.369
better access to training and nutrition, perhaps

00:46:25.369 --> 00:46:27.909
while they're on duty, have a longer academy?

00:46:28.610 --> 00:46:30.769
Again, I don't want to get too far into your

00:46:30.769 --> 00:46:34.539
world because I'm ignorant of it largely. How

00:46:34.539 --> 00:46:36.880
do we create the conditions through which people

00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:39.980
can be held to that standard because it's realistic

00:46:39.980 --> 00:46:43.599
for them to achieve and maintain it? Well, it's

00:46:43.599 --> 00:46:44.980
interesting you put it that way, because I mean,

00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:47.159
that's so pertinent to the fire service. Most

00:46:47.159 --> 00:46:50.360
of our firefighters work 56 hours a week. There's

00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:52.699
a lot of, there's a huge recruitment crisis with

00:46:52.699 --> 00:46:54.760
a lot of mandatory overtime. So now you're working

00:46:54.760 --> 00:46:57.440
80 hours a week. I just interviewed a federal

00:46:57.440 --> 00:47:00.239
firefighter in Hawaii. He does a 60, excuse me,

00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:03.300
a 72 hour basal work week before any overtime.

00:47:03.940 --> 00:47:07.320
So this is what I've always said is that if we

00:47:07.320 --> 00:47:09.380
actually fix that and give them the rest and

00:47:09.380 --> 00:47:11.420
recovery they need for longevity and performance,

00:47:11.619 --> 00:47:14.789
then you can now hold them to that standard but

00:47:14.789 --> 00:47:17.030
when you've got someone working 80 hours a week

00:47:17.030 --> 00:47:18.789
and then asking them to maintain that standard

00:47:18.789 --> 00:47:21.289
as well you know a where are they going to find

00:47:21.289 --> 00:47:24.449
the time and b you know if you look at physiologically

00:47:24.449 --> 00:47:27.369
they are literally set up for failure the body

00:47:27.369 --> 00:47:30.710
heals after training when you sleep so this is

00:47:30.710 --> 00:47:32.969
all part of the same conversation and i agree

00:47:32.969 --> 00:47:35.360
a thousand percent And if we give these first

00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:37.960
responders the rest and recovery they need between

00:47:37.960 --> 00:47:40.679
the shifts, now you have freed up some extra

00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:43.079
time for some daytime training and things where

00:47:43.079 --> 00:47:45.139
you can actually start sharpening the sword.

00:47:46.400 --> 00:47:49.099
Yeah, definitely. So my wife went to EMT school

00:47:49.099 --> 00:47:51.880
and became a wilderness EMT. And so she had to

00:47:51.880 --> 00:47:53.619
spend some time riding on an ambulance as part

00:47:53.619 --> 00:47:56.659
of the end of her training. And, you know, she's

00:47:56.659 --> 00:47:59.559
big into health and fitness training. And she

00:47:59.559 --> 00:48:01.679
just said, I don't know how these folks do it

00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:03.659
riding around on ambulances all the time because

00:48:03.659 --> 00:48:06.119
they're going from one call to the next. So their

00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:09.179
whole shift, they're busy. It's not like they're

00:48:09.179 --> 00:48:10.880
hanging out doing nothing where they can just

00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:13.480
be, you know, grilling steaks and bench pressing.

00:48:13.619 --> 00:48:15.019
I mean, they're just going from one call to the

00:48:15.019 --> 00:48:17.139
next the whole time. There's not much opportunity

00:48:17.139 --> 00:48:20.059
to stop and rest or eat, certainly not to train.

00:48:20.860 --> 00:48:23.659
And then on top of that, at least in her experience,

00:48:23.719 --> 00:48:26.329
they're not paying these people very much. And

00:48:26.329 --> 00:48:28.789
so they're eating from like the snack room at

00:48:28.789 --> 00:48:33.210
the ER or Lord knows what fast food maybe. And

00:48:33.210 --> 00:48:35.289
so there you go. You've got to work a lot of

00:48:35.289 --> 00:48:38.650
shifts every week to make a living. You don't

00:48:38.650 --> 00:48:41.309
have the disposable income for healthy food and

00:48:41.309 --> 00:48:44.969
nutrition. And so it would be easy to say, sure,

00:48:45.050 --> 00:48:47.510
they should pack macadamia nuts and protein bars

00:48:47.510 --> 00:48:50.090
and whatever with them and do pushups between

00:48:50.090 --> 00:48:53.219
stops, blah, blah, blah. It would appear to me

00:48:53.219 --> 00:48:55.059
that the reality of it on the ground for most

00:48:55.059 --> 00:48:57.360
folks doesn't lend itself very well to that kind

00:48:57.360 --> 00:48:59.599
of thing. Yeah. Well, it's interesting listening

00:48:59.599 --> 00:49:02.139
to your community and the associated, you know,

00:49:02.139 --> 00:49:07.139
SFSO communities. You know, there is that understanding

00:49:07.139 --> 00:49:08.960
that if you're going to ask these warfighters

00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:11.349
to operate at a certain level. You've got the

00:49:11.349 --> 00:49:13.369
Thor 3 program, for example. You've got these

00:49:13.369 --> 00:49:17.010
environments where there's prevention, there's

00:49:17.010 --> 00:49:19.190
physical therapy, then you've got nutritionists

00:49:19.190 --> 00:49:21.349
and strength and conditioning coaches and sports

00:49:21.349 --> 00:49:23.989
psychologists and people that are trying to get

00:49:23.989 --> 00:49:26.789
you guys as efficient as possible. And then you

00:49:26.789 --> 00:49:29.789
contrast that to my profession and police and

00:49:29.789 --> 00:49:33.210
EMS, where even when there is a strength and

00:49:33.210 --> 00:49:35.230
conditioning conversation, it's like, well, let's

00:49:35.230 --> 00:49:37.440
try and get them to die a little bit less. It's

00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:39.639
nowhere near human performance. So we've got

00:49:39.639 --> 00:49:43.159
such a void between where we are and where you

00:49:43.159 --> 00:49:45.739
are. And yet so many of your community hold us

00:49:45.739 --> 00:49:48.340
to the same level as you. Because as I point

00:49:48.340 --> 00:49:50.940
out to people, when you're overseas fighting,

00:49:51.239 --> 00:49:53.679
we're the ones protecting your family. So, of

00:49:53.679 --> 00:49:55.679
course, you want us to be at the same level as

00:49:55.679 --> 00:49:59.900
you in our respective fields. Yeah, I agree.

00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:03.119
I mean, I think any family that's in a dire situation,

00:50:03.460 --> 00:50:05.460
you know, wants somebody that's very capable

00:50:05.460 --> 00:50:08.219
to show up. to help them out, whether that's

00:50:08.219 --> 00:50:11.300
law enforcement, fire or any other member of

00:50:11.300 --> 00:50:14.179
the first responder community. And I think that's

00:50:14.179 --> 00:50:15.840
for good reason. These are these are jobs that

00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:18.519
we hold in high esteem and high regard. And,

00:50:18.519 --> 00:50:23.260
you know, resources become a real question, though,

00:50:23.320 --> 00:50:26.539
because unlike a federal service like, you know,

00:50:26.539 --> 00:50:30.800
FBI, SWAT or special operations. Every municipality

00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:34.199
has its own rules, its own budget. I can't imagine

00:50:34.199 --> 00:50:37.619
how hard it would be to try to normalize or standardize

00:50:37.619 --> 00:50:41.739
things along a lot of those lines. I suspect

00:50:41.739 --> 00:50:44.579
in your work, what you're maybe trying to do,

00:50:44.619 --> 00:50:47.119
or at least what I might try to do, is try to

00:50:47.119 --> 00:50:50.920
find shining examples. Are there places where

00:50:50.920 --> 00:50:56.920
the local community or somebody can... help to

00:50:56.920 --> 00:50:58.780
create the conditions to show what right looks

00:50:58.780 --> 00:51:00.840
like. And then you can, you kind of slowly start

00:51:00.840 --> 00:51:03.880
to, to grow it out from there. You know, I was

00:51:03.880 --> 00:51:05.800
involved in leading a nonprofit for a long time

00:51:05.800 --> 00:51:08.679
when I got out of the service and that's kind

00:51:08.679 --> 00:51:10.559
of what we did. I mean, there was no money, there

00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:12.059
was no interest in doing what we were doing,

00:51:12.119 --> 00:51:13.599
which was health and wellness and connection,

00:51:13.780 --> 00:51:15.659
right? So running groups, CrossFit, et cetera.

00:51:17.159 --> 00:51:19.599
That wasn't sexy. It wasn't suicide prevention

00:51:19.599 --> 00:51:22.199
per se. It wasn't homelessness eradication. It

00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:23.480
was just like, you're getting veterans together

00:51:23.480 --> 00:51:27.940
to run and work out. Okay. And it took us a number

00:51:27.940 --> 00:51:30.420
of years of doing it in small pockets and then

00:51:30.420 --> 00:51:32.360
kind of scaling it out using a chapter model

00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:35.239
to where finally we could go back to the beltway

00:51:35.239 --> 00:51:38.599
and say, hey, this is undeniable how well it's

00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:41.699
working. Yeah, I don't know if there's an opportunity

00:51:41.699 --> 00:51:44.199
to do that, but it would be amazing to think

00:51:44.199 --> 00:51:47.420
some community somewhere could really dig in

00:51:47.420 --> 00:51:49.739
and do this right and then try to export that

00:51:49.739 --> 00:51:53.670
model or at least influence the rest. Yeah, there's

00:51:53.670 --> 00:51:56.190
departments that are doing certain things well.

00:51:56.329 --> 00:51:57.769
And I think this is what we've got to we've got

00:51:57.769 --> 00:51:59.889
to understand that we're completely siloed, just

00:51:59.889 --> 00:52:02.409
like you pointed out cities and counties. And

00:52:02.409 --> 00:52:05.070
then you've got to realize that you have to get

00:52:05.070 --> 00:52:06.989
rid of ego. I mean, the number of departments

00:52:06.989 --> 00:52:09.110
I know that the county and city don't even talk

00:52:09.110 --> 00:52:12.239
to each other or FD and PD, which is. insane

00:52:12.239 --> 00:52:15.079
so having that humility to then go in different

00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:17.460
places in the country and say well you're doing

00:52:17.460 --> 00:52:19.159
strength and conditioning really well well you've

00:52:19.159 --> 00:52:21.099
got a really good mental health program tell

00:52:21.099 --> 00:52:23.440
me about your work week and this is what's happening

00:52:23.440 --> 00:52:25.659
now with the work week specifically in florida

00:52:25.659 --> 00:52:28.679
there's a revolution where departments are finally

00:52:28.679 --> 00:52:30.719
getting it and there's i just had a phone call

00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:33.400
with with a department out your way that wants

00:52:33.400 --> 00:52:36.719
to look at going to it too so that there is this

00:52:36.719 --> 00:52:39.320
happening and i think those shiny examples at

00:52:39.320 --> 00:52:40.760
the beginning were like well yeah but we just

00:52:40.760 --> 00:52:44.130
did it We just, you know, all this money was

00:52:44.130 --> 00:52:46.929
being wasted downstream. Enough is enough. We're

00:52:46.929 --> 00:52:49.809
struggling to hire good people. So we took that

00:52:49.809 --> 00:52:52.389
downstream money and we put it up front. And

00:52:52.389 --> 00:52:54.650
here we are. So, I mean, that's exactly what

00:52:54.650 --> 00:52:57.289
you're saying. And then the more departments

00:52:57.289 --> 00:52:59.690
that do that kind of thing, the more you debunk

00:52:59.690 --> 00:53:02.630
the fairy tales that this will never happen.

00:53:02.730 --> 00:53:04.670
They'll never go for it. We don't have the money

00:53:04.670 --> 00:53:07.130
because, you know, largely that's complete BS.

00:53:07.190 --> 00:53:09.989
It's just about having the courage to say. This

00:53:09.989 --> 00:53:11.769
isn't working. How can we do it differently?

00:53:13.070 --> 00:53:14.869
Yeah, that's it. I'll give you a small example.

00:53:14.969 --> 00:53:16.909
When I was on a team, when I was in Special Forces,

00:53:17.090 --> 00:53:20.449
when I first took over my team, our unit had

00:53:20.449 --> 00:53:22.130
just come back from a deployment. So we were

00:53:22.130 --> 00:53:24.489
in kind of a red cycle where you're just kind

00:53:24.489 --> 00:53:26.110
of not doing much. You don't have much budget

00:53:26.110 --> 00:53:29.929
for things. But I was new to the team and I didn't

00:53:29.929 --> 00:53:31.889
want to just finish all my training and not do

00:53:31.889 --> 00:53:34.630
anything for a while. So I was really eager to

00:53:34.630 --> 00:53:37.719
get the team out and do some training. I had

00:53:37.719 --> 00:53:39.579
to beat around the bushes a lot to find dollars,

00:53:39.639 --> 00:53:42.039
to find ammo, to find ranges that were available.

00:53:42.119 --> 00:53:44.099
And it wasn't easy, but that was my job. That

00:53:44.099 --> 00:53:48.059
was what I was there for. And over a few months,

00:53:48.199 --> 00:53:51.199
we would be kind of rolling off post to go to

00:53:51.199 --> 00:53:53.079
some other adjacent base somewhere in Virginia

00:53:53.079 --> 00:53:54.880
or something to do some training. And people

00:53:54.880 --> 00:53:55.960
would be scratching their heads saying like,

00:53:56.000 --> 00:53:57.500
I thought there was no off post training. I thought

00:53:57.500 --> 00:53:59.159
there was no ammo. What's the deal? How come

00:53:59.159 --> 00:54:01.159
they're allowed to do that? And the truth was,

00:54:01.179 --> 00:54:03.619
it wasn't that we were special or given special

00:54:03.619 --> 00:54:06.510
dispensation. It was just that. My team sergeant

00:54:06.510 --> 00:54:09.449
and I were digging around trying to find ways

00:54:09.449 --> 00:54:12.030
to get out and train. And when we couldn't find

00:54:12.030 --> 00:54:14.030
ways or dollars to go do that, we were out in

00:54:14.030 --> 00:54:17.110
the woods in the back 40 doing individual movement

00:54:17.110 --> 00:54:20.369
tactics and things that were often deemed too

00:54:20.369 --> 00:54:25.190
kind of lame or basic for SF guys. And eventually

00:54:25.190 --> 00:54:27.110
that started to get some traction and people

00:54:27.110 --> 00:54:29.190
would say, hey, maybe there are some ways to

00:54:29.190 --> 00:54:32.110
get out and do this. Beautiful. Well, speaking

00:54:32.110 --> 00:54:35.250
of, you know, SF and your deployments kind of

00:54:35.250 --> 00:54:38.849
left you off at Iraq. One question I like to

00:54:38.849 --> 00:54:40.829
ask people who have been deployed and the backstory

00:54:40.829 --> 00:54:44.010
is simply when you are not in the military, you

00:54:44.010 --> 00:54:46.869
get a very polarized view of war. You know, you

00:54:46.869 --> 00:54:48.610
have the one side, you know, kill them all, let

00:54:48.610 --> 00:54:50.369
God sort them out, stack bodies. And then you

00:54:50.369 --> 00:54:51.829
have the other side. There are a bunch of baby

00:54:51.829 --> 00:54:54.429
killers. And in the middle are our men and women,

00:54:54.530 --> 00:54:56.909
arguably children that we send off, you know,

00:54:56.909 --> 00:55:00.409
with our flag on their shoulder. So the two part

00:55:00.409 --> 00:55:03.719
question. Firstly, as you touched on, this wasn't

00:55:03.719 --> 00:55:06.099
actually a direct response to what happened in

00:55:06.099 --> 00:55:09.039
New York and the Pentagon. Was there a moment

00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:11.699
where you witnessed some atrocities where you

00:55:11.699 --> 00:55:13.739
realized that there were some horrific people

00:55:13.739 --> 00:55:19.300
that did need to be taken care of? Yes. Yeah.

00:55:19.400 --> 00:55:21.420
I mean, and I saw the full spectrum. As you said,

00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:23.340
it's not black and white. I remember crossing

00:55:23.340 --> 00:55:27.119
the Berm in southern Iraq from Kuwait. And this

00:55:27.119 --> 00:55:29.320
was after kind of the ground war. So we weren't.

00:55:29.599 --> 00:55:31.059
You know, we weren't nervous about being attacked

00:55:31.059 --> 00:55:33.579
or anything. But the first few towns we drove

00:55:33.579 --> 00:55:35.960
through in Southern Iraq were just so dirt poor.

00:55:36.179 --> 00:55:38.400
It was hard for me growing up in the States to

00:55:38.400 --> 00:55:41.659
even imagine. I mean, some of the people lived

00:55:41.659 --> 00:55:44.539
in little huts that were made out of dung, you

00:55:44.539 --> 00:55:48.800
know, from cows or whatever. And I used to wear

00:55:48.800 --> 00:55:51.739
a rubber band on my left wrist when I was deployed.

00:55:51.760 --> 00:55:54.679
I would snap it to like wake me up, to make me

00:55:54.679 --> 00:55:56.599
remember like this is not a drill. This is not

00:55:56.599 --> 00:56:00.170
training. Uh, this is don't get complacent basically.

00:56:00.989 --> 00:56:02.769
And I would, I would use it to help me remember

00:56:02.769 --> 00:56:05.050
things that were important. And I remember I

00:56:05.050 --> 00:56:06.710
made a promise to myself on that very first day

00:56:06.710 --> 00:56:08.809
that I would never forget what that looked like

00:56:08.809 --> 00:56:10.630
and smelled like and felt like to see those people.

00:56:10.690 --> 00:56:12.269
And these people had nothing to do with anything.

00:56:12.409 --> 00:56:14.309
They were just really, really dirt poor people

00:56:14.309 --> 00:56:18.030
living in, uh, in Southern Iraq. And you eventually

00:56:18.030 --> 00:56:19.730
get up there and you get involved in things and

00:56:19.730 --> 00:56:22.090
you see stuff that you're like, wow, maybe, maybe

00:56:22.090 --> 00:56:23.849
some of what we're doing is really agitating

00:56:23.849 --> 00:56:26.670
these people and they might not otherwise want

00:56:26.670 --> 00:56:29.900
to be killing us. Um, and then you see things

00:56:29.900 --> 00:56:32.519
that are just pure evil. You know, I can, I can

00:56:32.519 --> 00:56:35.820
remember, um, seeing some of like the sectarian

00:56:35.820 --> 00:56:37.619
violence in Iraq where like these people were

00:56:37.619 --> 00:56:40.860
killing each other. And you're like, I was stunned

00:56:40.860 --> 00:56:43.059
by that. I was stunned to get there and to learn

00:56:43.059 --> 00:56:46.519
that, you know, cause you think it's. you know,

00:56:46.519 --> 00:56:49.219
it's Iraq versus Iran in their war, or it's,

00:56:49.219 --> 00:56:51.460
you know, Arabs versus Israelis. That all kind

00:56:51.460 --> 00:56:52.980
of makes sense simply in your head. And then

00:56:52.980 --> 00:56:54.199
you get there and you think, well, maybe it's

00:56:54.199 --> 00:56:56.199
the Sunni versus the Shia. And you get a little

00:56:56.199 --> 00:56:57.780
bit more nuanced understanding. And then you

00:56:57.780 --> 00:57:00.900
realize, no, it's like this tribe over here doesn't

00:57:00.900 --> 00:57:03.400
like that tribe right over there because they

00:57:03.400 --> 00:57:06.480
have some longstanding family history. And it's

00:57:06.480 --> 00:57:11.380
just, it's absolutely, it was beyond my imagination

00:57:11.380 --> 00:57:15.460
how brutal. Some of these people could be barbaric

00:57:15.460 --> 00:57:19.400
to one another. I remember there was one day

00:57:19.400 --> 00:57:23.619
that we were out doing reconnaissance and there'd

00:57:23.619 --> 00:57:26.119
been a big attack along a major route and some

00:57:26.119 --> 00:57:29.460
contractors, you know, their trucks, supply trucks

00:57:29.460 --> 00:57:32.019
had been hit. And we went back to help secure

00:57:32.019 --> 00:57:34.719
the site and just seeing what some of these folks

00:57:34.719 --> 00:57:36.860
had done to these poor American contractors that

00:57:36.860 --> 00:57:38.860
were just driving trucks, you know, just mutilating

00:57:38.860 --> 00:57:42.579
them, you know, hanging them from. telephone

00:57:42.579 --> 00:57:46.099
wires and stuff. It's just like, it's hard to

00:57:46.099 --> 00:57:48.960
see how that's not just pure evil. And there's

00:57:48.960 --> 00:57:50.460
a part of me to this day that wants to think

00:57:50.460 --> 00:57:52.420
like, well, what has that person's life been

00:57:52.420 --> 00:57:53.900
like? And how did they get to be that way? And

00:57:53.900 --> 00:57:55.619
why were they out doing that kind of stuff? But

00:57:55.619 --> 00:57:57.880
certainly in the moment, you just want, you want

00:57:57.880 --> 00:57:59.260
to get out there and find every one of those

00:57:59.260 --> 00:58:02.139
people. And we saw some things in Afghanistan

00:58:02.139 --> 00:58:05.519
later when I was in SF that, you know, just people

00:58:05.519 --> 00:58:08.130
would come to our clinic. And you would see things

00:58:08.130 --> 00:58:10.769
where, you know, there'd be violence from a father

00:58:10.769 --> 00:58:13.730
against a daughter. You know, there was a girl

00:58:13.730 --> 00:58:15.349
that came into our clinic that had had like a

00:58:15.349 --> 00:58:18.730
big pot, like a boiling pot of hot chai tea,

00:58:18.789 --> 00:58:21.550
like thrown on her by her father because she

00:58:21.550 --> 00:58:23.989
had done something, I guess, to bring some dishonor.

00:58:24.010 --> 00:58:27.190
And she was just severely burned. And you see

00:58:27.190 --> 00:58:30.130
that kind of thing and you just think what, you

00:58:30.130 --> 00:58:32.610
know, what is going on? And I will tell you that.

00:58:33.260 --> 00:58:36.320
Right or wrong, the military does a job to try

00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:40.539
to desensitize you, to convince you that the

00:58:40.539 --> 00:58:42.840
enemy is other, that the enemy is an inhuman,

00:58:42.860 --> 00:58:45.559
that you should want to go and breach doors and

00:58:45.559 --> 00:58:48.559
put rounds between their eyes. And there are

00:58:48.559 --> 00:58:51.920
people, I think, that I came across in instances

00:58:51.920 --> 00:58:53.739
where it felt like that was absolutely the right

00:58:53.739 --> 00:58:56.119
thing to do. And you see some things like that

00:58:56.119 --> 00:58:59.619
and you think, you know, maybe there's something

00:58:59.619 --> 00:59:02.300
to this. And then you see other things that are

00:59:02.300 --> 00:59:04.179
just these incredibly beautiful, generous acts

00:59:04.179 --> 00:59:06.659
of humanity. And it's really hard to get your

00:59:06.659 --> 00:59:08.139
head around in the moment. And it's very, very

00:59:08.139 --> 00:59:10.079
hard to reconcile afterwards because you have

00:59:10.079 --> 00:59:11.800
to reconcile not just what you've seen and what

00:59:11.800 --> 00:59:14.119
you've experienced personally. You know, I lost

00:59:14.119 --> 00:59:19.639
several friends that were under my command. But

00:59:19.639 --> 00:59:22.099
then you have to somehow make sense of that with

00:59:22.099 --> 00:59:26.079
the fact that these people are humans and the

00:59:26.079 --> 00:59:28.019
things that you did. You know, there's a lot

00:59:28.019 --> 00:59:29.920
of things I look back now many years later and

00:59:29.920 --> 00:59:33.119
I think, boy, things I said and did when I was

00:59:33.119 --> 00:59:37.320
in that headspace, in that environment, pretty

00:59:37.320 --> 00:59:40.780
aggressive, pretty brutal. And it's okay. I forgive

00:59:40.780 --> 00:59:42.960
myself for it. I know what I was doing then and

00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:45.780
why it was that way. But it's a lot. It's a lot

00:59:45.780 --> 00:59:49.059
to get your head around. The other side of the

00:59:49.059 --> 00:59:51.360
coin that we don't hear about either is the kindness

00:59:51.360 --> 00:59:54.440
and compassion. you know that not only from our

00:59:54.440 --> 00:59:56.440
men and women in uniform but also a lot of the

00:59:56.440 --> 00:59:59.639
indigenous people so you reflect about both of

00:59:59.639 --> 01:00:01.639
those countries what were moments that really

01:00:01.639 --> 01:00:07.559
stuck with you wow well that's a big question

01:00:07.559 --> 01:00:11.679
thank you thank you for asking um yeah things

01:00:11.679 --> 01:00:13.699
that just popped to mind i can remember having

01:00:13.699 --> 01:00:17.260
interpreters that were there that just loved

01:00:17.260 --> 01:00:20.619
their country both in iraq and afghanistan that

01:00:20.619 --> 01:00:23.420
for all the flaws had such a deeply rooted belief

01:00:23.420 --> 01:00:25.599
in their country and in their people that were

01:00:25.599 --> 01:00:27.679
willing to risk their lives in ways that we weren't,

01:00:27.679 --> 01:00:30.559
frankly. They were taking so much risk, not just

01:00:30.559 --> 01:00:32.559
out on missions with us, but on the drive to

01:00:32.559 --> 01:00:34.699
and from the base and in their homes. And many

01:00:34.699 --> 01:00:37.420
of them had families taken from them or families

01:00:37.420 --> 01:00:41.940
killed. To see that kind of patriotism and that

01:00:41.940 --> 01:00:46.699
kind of commitment and just courage was... awe

01:00:46.699 --> 01:00:49.179
-inspiring in many cases. I think about our interpreters

01:00:49.179 --> 01:00:51.500
a lot. I lost an interpreter, Iman Fakhry in

01:00:51.500 --> 01:00:54.079
Afghanistan, who was from Kabul, came from a

01:00:54.079 --> 01:00:55.659
nice family, didn't have to be there doing that.

01:00:55.800 --> 01:00:59.159
Could have probably kept himself safe and was

01:00:59.159 --> 01:01:03.119
killed in the line of duty. So there's certainly

01:01:03.119 --> 01:01:05.639
that. There are also a lot of really small gestures

01:01:05.639 --> 01:01:08.860
from people that were probably scared, probably

01:01:08.860 --> 01:01:11.019
frustrated with us driving around and breaking

01:01:11.019 --> 01:01:13.099
things in our Humvees or tanks or whatever that

01:01:13.099 --> 01:01:16.960
would offer us a cold drink. or some food, people

01:01:16.960 --> 01:01:19.460
who had very little. In both those cultures,

01:01:19.539 --> 01:01:21.460
in the Arab culture and in the Pashtun culture,

01:01:21.960 --> 01:01:27.000
there is a deeply rooted, pre -Islam even, sense

01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:30.679
of generosity and hospitality that is still very

01:01:30.679 --> 01:01:34.780
much alive in a lot of that world. I'll stop

01:01:34.780 --> 01:01:36.199
short of getting involved in religious conversation,

01:01:36.519 --> 01:01:41.559
but culturally, there are really deeply rooted

01:01:41.559 --> 01:01:43.860
veins of both the Arab and the Pashtun culture

01:01:43.860 --> 01:01:46.099
that are just absolutely beautiful. and some

01:01:46.099 --> 01:01:51.719
of which exist today. And it's just a shame that

01:01:51.719 --> 01:01:55.460
through corruption and subtle other factors,

01:01:55.679 --> 01:01:59.179
so many aspects of that part of the world are

01:01:59.179 --> 01:02:03.619
so dangerous and so dysfunctional because it's

01:02:03.619 --> 01:02:06.679
not like most of the people there aren't humans

01:02:06.679 --> 01:02:08.519
just like you and I who have many of the same

01:02:08.519 --> 01:02:11.519
kind of hopes and dreams that we do. I was talking

01:02:11.519 --> 01:02:14.300
to someone the other day. kind of been pondering

01:02:14.300 --> 01:02:16.760
this for quite a while now when we talk about

01:02:16.760 --> 01:02:19.500
evolution of man we always focus on innovation

01:02:19.500 --> 01:02:22.860
you know the wheel and fire and you know the

01:02:22.860 --> 01:02:25.639
industrial revolution and now you know computers

01:02:25.639 --> 01:02:27.900
and ai and these terrifying robots that you see

01:02:27.900 --> 01:02:30.480
punching chinese people in demonstrations um

01:02:30.480 --> 01:02:34.340
but uh i disagree completely i think that the

01:02:34.340 --> 01:02:37.699
evolution of man is kindness and compassion if

01:02:37.699 --> 01:02:41.400
you look at how brutal you know our history was

01:02:42.329 --> 01:02:45.010
And so, you know, you have these cultures all

01:02:45.010 --> 01:02:47.329
over the world. And if left alone, I mean, look

01:02:47.329 --> 01:02:49.250
at even just take Christianity. You've got the

01:02:49.250 --> 01:02:51.829
Old Testament, kind of brutal, kind of revenge

01:02:51.829 --> 01:02:54.449
based. And then you have the New Testament, you

01:02:54.449 --> 01:02:56.750
know, love everyone, get amongst all the people

01:02:56.750 --> 01:02:58.489
that are struggling in your community and raise

01:02:58.489 --> 01:03:01.250
them up. But that can also be interpreted as,

01:03:01.309 --> 01:03:03.769
you know, hang black people from trees, for example.

01:03:03.849 --> 01:03:08.730
So when the toxicity of a corrupt human being.

01:03:09.289 --> 01:03:11.289
gets involved with the religion, and we've seen

01:03:11.289 --> 01:03:13.489
it. It can be turned completely. But I think

01:03:13.489 --> 01:03:16.670
that goes against the evolution of man. And this

01:03:16.670 --> 01:03:19.710
is why it's so important to see the good that

01:03:19.710 --> 01:03:21.449
all the militaries around the world that are

01:03:21.449 --> 01:03:24.090
coming from a good place are trying to do is

01:03:24.090 --> 01:03:26.889
move that needle. And there are some cultures,

01:03:27.030 --> 01:03:30.889
including our own, that have taken steps backwards.

01:03:31.030 --> 01:03:33.349
And I think we need to kind of refine the nucleus

01:03:33.349 --> 01:03:36.869
of all these holy books and other... doctrine

01:03:36.869 --> 01:03:39.469
that people subscribe to to move us back towards

01:03:39.469 --> 01:03:42.190
this this community this kindness and this empathy

01:03:42.190 --> 01:03:44.250
that we've you know i think we've lost even even

01:03:44.250 --> 01:03:46.469
in the u .s if you look at the screens it's kind

01:03:46.469 --> 01:03:50.409
of devoid yeah i don't know how much time you

01:03:50.409 --> 01:03:52.269
have james this is a rabbit hole i would gladly

01:03:52.269 --> 01:03:54.590
go down with you for as long as you want i uh

01:03:54.590 --> 01:03:56.929
i agree with you wholeheartedly i've seen it

01:03:56.929 --> 01:03:59.869
um i've experienced it so there are certain things

01:03:59.869 --> 01:04:02.630
that i just sort of i I know it's only my experience,

01:04:02.710 --> 01:04:04.670
but I have enough reps at a lot of things to

01:04:04.670 --> 01:04:06.489
kind of know them to be true, at least in my

01:04:06.489 --> 01:04:11.269
own heart, my own experience. And, you know,

01:04:11.269 --> 01:04:15.510
our ability to cooperate on a massive scale and

01:04:15.510 --> 01:04:17.489
our ability to love and care for one another

01:04:17.489 --> 01:04:21.289
and to spread these ideas essentially of human

01:04:21.289 --> 01:04:27.610
dignity and decency and worth, they're not. They're

01:04:27.610 --> 01:04:29.570
not present in early human history. These are

01:04:29.570 --> 01:04:32.309
new things that we've invented, right? As you

01:04:32.309 --> 01:04:34.530
say, these are real inventions. This is an evolution

01:04:34.530 --> 01:04:38.130
of the human spirit to be able to care for one

01:04:38.130 --> 01:04:39.769
another and cooperate and to have compassion

01:04:39.769 --> 01:04:41.610
for somebody across the globe that maybe you've

01:04:41.610 --> 01:04:44.250
never met, but you can somehow kind of connect

01:04:44.250 --> 01:04:47.989
to. And, you know, I didn't grow up a spiritual

01:04:47.989 --> 01:04:49.829
person and certainly not a religious person,

01:04:49.869 --> 01:04:53.059
but... Over the last couple of years, I've really

01:04:53.059 --> 01:04:55.159
four or five years, I've been on a bit of a journey

01:04:55.159 --> 01:04:58.639
to understand and read as many kind of from as

01:04:58.639 --> 01:05:01.099
many traditions and spiritual texts as I can.

01:05:01.159 --> 01:05:03.519
And you see common threads throughout. And it's

01:05:03.519 --> 01:05:05.480
hard to not believe some of those things are

01:05:05.480 --> 01:05:07.440
kind of true with a capital T when you just see

01:05:07.440 --> 01:05:11.320
them over and over again. And, you know, I think

01:05:11.320 --> 01:05:14.920
we've lost our way a bit in America because we've

01:05:14.920 --> 01:05:16.659
made some mistakes. We've made lots of mistakes

01:05:16.659 --> 01:05:20.449
from, you know, the history, you know. Pre -revolutionary

01:05:20.449 --> 01:05:22.289
war. We've done lots of things wrong. There are

01:05:22.289 --> 01:05:24.429
a lot of things we could look at throughout the

01:05:24.429 --> 01:05:26.750
history of America and the United States and

01:05:26.750 --> 01:05:29.190
say, that's terrible. We should be ashamed of

01:05:29.190 --> 01:05:32.110
that. I'm aware of that. And I think about it

01:05:32.110 --> 01:05:36.210
a lot. I also think that for better or worse,

01:05:36.250 --> 01:05:38.329
we created the greatest country on the face of

01:05:38.329 --> 01:05:39.849
the planet and throughout human history and have

01:05:39.849 --> 01:05:42.449
created the most opportunity for the most humans

01:05:42.449 --> 01:05:46.130
globally. We have something, at least a nucleus,

01:05:46.289 --> 01:05:47.869
as you said, of something worth fighting for.

01:05:48.050 --> 01:05:51.789
I decided a year or so ago that as ugly as it

01:05:51.789 --> 01:05:54.530
is and as hard as it is right now, I believe

01:05:54.530 --> 01:05:57.530
in America. I'm not going to look away from our

01:05:57.530 --> 01:06:00.250
faults and our flaws or try to erase them, but

01:06:00.250 --> 01:06:01.769
I'm also not going to look away from all the

01:06:01.769 --> 01:06:03.409
amazing and beautiful things we've done as a

01:06:03.409 --> 01:06:06.030
country and the potential we have to do in the

01:06:06.030 --> 01:06:08.469
future. I'm in. I'm all in on America. I'll do

01:06:08.469 --> 01:06:10.690
whatever I can to make my community and my country

01:06:10.690 --> 01:06:14.599
better. You know, my family and I started, we

01:06:14.599 --> 01:06:16.800
went back to church several months ago and we

01:06:16.800 --> 01:06:19.239
just said, hey, I don't know if every word of

01:06:19.239 --> 01:06:21.300
this is true. I don't know if all these stories

01:06:21.300 --> 01:06:24.559
are exactly literally true, but I know how I

01:06:24.559 --> 01:06:26.940
feel when I'm here. I know how good it is for

01:06:26.940 --> 01:06:29.619
my daughter to hear that God loves her. I can

01:06:29.619 --> 01:06:32.500
feel the kinship and the brother and sisterhood.

01:06:32.659 --> 01:06:35.340
And so, yeah, I'm in. You know, it may not be

01:06:35.340 --> 01:06:37.960
perfect. You know, Christians may have done lots

01:06:37.960 --> 01:06:40.019
of horrible things throughout human history and

01:06:40.019 --> 01:06:42.760
maybe doing many horrible things today. This

01:06:42.760 --> 01:06:44.579
is the best we got right now as far as I'm concerned,

01:06:44.699 --> 01:06:46.860
so I'm just going to invest in it. And I think

01:06:46.860 --> 01:06:50.159
you don't have to pick America. You don't have

01:06:50.159 --> 01:06:52.840
to pick Christianity. But I think there's something

01:06:52.840 --> 01:06:55.619
really powerful in saying, I'm going to find

01:06:55.619 --> 01:06:58.420
something that aligns with my true sense of what's

01:06:58.420 --> 01:07:00.199
right, what's wrong, what's good in this world,

01:07:00.260 --> 01:07:01.760
and I'm going to invest in it. I'm going to stick

01:07:01.760 --> 01:07:04.960
with it and try to make it the best I can, understanding

01:07:04.960 --> 01:07:08.480
it's not perfect. if you want to spend the rest

01:07:08.480 --> 01:07:10.519
of your life shooting holes in American history

01:07:10.519 --> 01:07:12.500
and the American experiment, you're not going

01:07:12.500 --> 01:07:14.619
to run out of opportunities. There's plenty of

01:07:14.619 --> 01:07:18.019
them or, or Buddhism or Christianity or Islam

01:07:18.019 --> 01:07:22.000
or whatever. But if you don't, I think find something

01:07:22.000 --> 01:07:23.760
as we talked about at the beginning of our conversation

01:07:23.760 --> 01:07:25.880
that you care enough about to believe in and

01:07:25.880 --> 01:07:28.300
invest in and commit to and make it as good as

01:07:28.300 --> 01:07:30.519
you can make it. You're just going to be another

01:07:30.519 --> 01:07:32.539
one of these grumpy people on the internet, you

01:07:32.539 --> 01:07:35.150
know? There's so many smart people out there

01:07:35.150 --> 01:07:37.210
that use all their smarts to find how everything's

01:07:37.210 --> 01:07:39.710
broken and point holes and how everything doesn't

01:07:39.710 --> 01:07:41.929
make sense. And it's like, if that's how you

01:07:41.929 --> 01:07:44.110
want to use your God -given intellect and capability,

01:07:44.369 --> 01:07:48.809
go ahead. But you would be better off, you know,

01:07:48.809 --> 01:07:51.590
cooking a meal, sitting down and talking to your

01:07:51.590 --> 01:07:54.829
family, shaking your neighbor's hand, deadlifting.

01:07:55.500 --> 01:07:57.300
you know, and doing something worthwhile with

01:07:57.300 --> 01:07:59.900
your life. So, you know, my life is imperfect.

01:08:00.139 --> 01:08:02.380
I make lots of mistakes and anybody can point

01:08:02.380 --> 01:08:04.139
out all the ways in which I'm doing that. But

01:08:04.139 --> 01:08:06.619
like, I'm doing it in earnest, you know, at least

01:08:06.619 --> 01:08:09.719
I'm giving it a go. One of my guests is quite

01:08:09.719 --> 01:08:12.340
a while ago now made a really interesting point.

01:08:12.400 --> 01:08:16.500
He said, America is the commercial for democracy.

01:08:17.380 --> 01:08:19.979
If you watch that commercial, how much would

01:08:19.979 --> 01:08:22.369
you invest in it? And I thought that was such

01:08:22.369 --> 01:08:24.010
an interesting perspective. And it's not, again,

01:08:24.029 --> 01:08:26.050
doom and gloom. But when you identify the things

01:08:26.050 --> 01:08:27.750
that need to be fixed, then you can actually

01:08:27.750 --> 01:08:30.229
start fixing them. So you bring a solution to

01:08:30.229 --> 01:08:32.630
it. But, you know, there's that tongue in cheek

01:08:32.630 --> 01:08:34.670
Team America World Police kind of mentality.

01:08:34.890 --> 01:08:38.210
And it's very true. But I think really what we

01:08:38.210 --> 01:08:40.770
need is Team America World first responders,

01:08:40.989 --> 01:08:44.569
because if we actually could address the things

01:08:44.569 --> 01:08:46.750
that we need to address within our own nation,

01:08:46.850 --> 01:08:48.949
within our own community, within our own homes.

01:08:49.770 --> 01:08:52.270
and really have a healthy population, address

01:08:52.270 --> 01:08:55.449
the mental health crisis, hopefully make a dent

01:08:55.449 --> 01:08:58.130
in some of the poor environmental decisions that

01:08:58.130 --> 01:09:00.689
we've made, then other nations would look to

01:09:00.689 --> 01:09:04.210
us, but how did you do that? And then I think

01:09:04.210 --> 01:09:07.430
we'd have a lot more success in maybe spreading

01:09:07.430 --> 01:09:11.369
some of this, what's the right way of putting

01:09:11.369 --> 01:09:14.439
it, this idea. was thought of and this freedom

01:09:14.439 --> 01:09:16.659
and the ability like you said to be any profession

01:09:16.659 --> 01:09:20.079
and to vote and be educated and all these things

01:09:20.079 --> 01:09:24.020
that we do have but I think if you're someone

01:09:24.020 --> 01:09:25.880
on the outside and you're looking in and you're

01:09:25.880 --> 01:09:29.380
seeing 70 % obesity and overweight and the fentanyl

01:09:29.380 --> 01:09:32.239
crisis and we have a quarter of the entire world's

01:09:32.239 --> 01:09:34.500
incarcerated populations and school shootings

01:09:34.500 --> 01:09:37.779
and you're like you should do what we do I understand

01:09:37.779 --> 01:09:40.079
why people are like that sounds a bit shit actually

01:09:40.079 --> 01:09:43.300
so I think what Each and every one of us has

01:09:43.300 --> 01:09:45.640
the power to do is say, you know, you're right.

01:09:45.760 --> 01:09:48.180
We need to start fixing us. You want to change

01:09:48.180 --> 01:09:51.039
the world, start a home. We're so busy pointing

01:09:51.039 --> 01:09:54.779
at Fox or CNN or Trump or Biden, these people

01:09:54.779 --> 01:09:57.859
that don't give a shit about you. And rather

01:09:57.859 --> 01:09:59.640
than looking in the mirror and go, how can I

01:09:59.640 --> 01:10:01.619
be a better husband? How can I be a better father?

01:10:01.939 --> 01:10:04.359
How can I mentor someone in my own community

01:10:04.359 --> 01:10:06.939
and raise them up? You know, how can we help

01:10:06.939 --> 01:10:08.920
collectively get that gentleman under the bridge

01:10:08.920 --> 01:10:11.119
off the streets and into somewhere where he can

01:10:11.119 --> 01:10:14.600
live? then I think you'd move mountains. But

01:10:14.600 --> 01:10:18.840
it's so easy to point a finger because it doesn't

01:10:18.840 --> 01:10:20.579
involve you doing anything. You're pointing away

01:10:20.579 --> 01:10:23.180
from yourself. What is it they say when you point

01:10:23.180 --> 01:10:25.159
a finger, there's one away and three facing towards

01:10:25.159 --> 01:10:27.600
you or pointing towards you? I think that's the

01:10:27.600 --> 01:10:30.720
beautiful opportunity we have in America. Imagine

01:10:30.720 --> 01:10:33.880
the good we could do if we were a shining example

01:10:33.880 --> 01:10:36.680
of democracy. That would permeate across the

01:10:36.680 --> 01:10:43.279
planet. Yeah, of course it would. We talk a lot,

01:10:43.359 --> 01:10:45.479
Brandon and I, about how it's amazing how much

01:10:45.479 --> 01:10:50.859
winning solves. When things are going well, suddenly

01:10:50.859 --> 01:10:53.140
everybody's interested in what you have to sell.

01:10:53.300 --> 01:10:55.960
And so you got to kind of sweep your own front

01:10:55.960 --> 01:11:01.260
porch first with those kinds of things. This

01:11:01.260 --> 01:11:04.020
is true at the individual level though, right?

01:11:05.000 --> 01:11:06.819
And you said those people don't give a shit about

01:11:06.819 --> 01:11:08.899
you. I tend to agree. I mean, I think there are

01:11:08.899 --> 01:11:10.779
good politicians out there and I don't think

01:11:10.779 --> 01:11:14.159
all federal entities are doing a terrible job.

01:11:14.260 --> 01:11:16.479
But I would say that if you're waiting on anybody

01:11:16.479 --> 01:11:18.880
to fix anything for you, you're going to be waiting

01:11:18.880 --> 01:11:21.000
the rest of your life. And there are some really

01:11:21.000 --> 01:11:22.779
cool ways in which we're seeing some of this.

01:11:22.819 --> 01:11:24.300
And some of it's been a little kind of corrupted

01:11:24.300 --> 01:11:27.659
in the manosphere, unfortunately. But I do love

01:11:27.659 --> 01:11:29.539
this kernel of a thing that's starting to build

01:11:29.539 --> 01:11:31.020
where there are more and more people saying,

01:11:31.140 --> 01:11:34.470
look, I'm going to. get as healthy, as strong

01:11:34.470 --> 01:11:37.329
as I can, I'm going to invest in my own skills.

01:11:37.649 --> 01:11:39.750
And I don't care whether you're sort of a hipster,

01:11:39.750 --> 01:11:42.729
like homesteader, or whether you're like a jujitsu

01:11:42.729 --> 01:11:46.130
enthusiast, tactical games athlete, like, all

01:11:46.130 --> 01:11:48.390
of that is coming from a similar place, which

01:11:48.390 --> 01:11:50.430
is I'm going to figure out a way to become more

01:11:50.430 --> 01:11:54.529
self reliant. And I'm going to be where my feet

01:11:54.529 --> 01:11:57.250
are. And I'm going to invest in my for myself

01:11:57.250 --> 01:11:59.350
and my family and my community and kind of grow

01:11:59.350 --> 01:12:02.970
out from there. Because I I think there's little

01:12:02.970 --> 01:12:05.390
else we can do. And that's almost always been

01:12:05.390 --> 01:12:07.149
the case. It just feels a little different right

01:12:07.149 --> 01:12:11.970
now. Because the truth of the matter is, if you

01:12:11.970 --> 01:12:14.569
try to do anything at the scale of a place like

01:12:14.569 --> 01:12:17.369
America, hundreds of millions of people, you're

01:12:17.369 --> 01:12:19.770
going to eventually make decisions that choose

01:12:19.770 --> 01:12:23.729
sort of efficiency or economy over quality. You

01:12:23.729 --> 01:12:26.850
can't help but do that. And so to expect it to

01:12:26.850 --> 01:12:28.310
do anything different, I think is just a little

01:12:28.310 --> 01:12:30.630
bit foolish. So you don't ever want to let go

01:12:30.630 --> 01:12:33.180
of your physical. or your personal agency. Because

01:12:33.180 --> 01:12:36.260
when the machine gets big enough, it's going

01:12:36.260 --> 01:12:39.279
almost of its own volition. It's going to decide

01:12:39.279 --> 01:12:42.399
that it wants economy and efficiency over quality.

01:12:42.680 --> 01:12:45.859
And you have to retain the right to kind of dig

01:12:45.859 --> 01:12:49.600
into the quality. And if you, you know, I hate

01:12:49.600 --> 01:12:52.479
to sound judgmental, but if you just go to anywhere,

01:12:52.640 --> 01:12:54.739
anywhere in America, any restaurant, bowling

01:12:54.739 --> 01:12:57.500
alley, shopping mall, et cetera. I was just at

01:12:57.500 --> 01:12:59.300
Universal Studios in Orlando this past weekend

01:12:59.300 --> 01:13:01.890
with my family. We had an awesome time. But if

01:13:01.890 --> 01:13:05.130
you just look around and soften your gaze a little

01:13:05.130 --> 01:13:07.970
bit, it's not a pretty picture. You know, I saw

01:13:07.970 --> 01:13:11.189
a family of six. We were waiting for our dinner

01:13:11.189 --> 01:13:12.850
reservation to open up and there was a family

01:13:12.850 --> 01:13:15.550
of six there. It was like two adults and four

01:13:15.550 --> 01:13:19.810
kids between probably 10 and 16. Six for six

01:13:19.810 --> 01:13:22.449
on their phone, you know, watching YouTube, watching

01:13:22.449 --> 01:13:26.270
a show, kind of slack jawed, you know, head forward,

01:13:26.390 --> 01:13:30.449
overweight. I'm sure they're wonderful people.

01:13:30.550 --> 01:13:32.729
I've, you know, I want the best for them, but

01:13:32.729 --> 01:13:35.289
to see that you're here together as a family

01:13:35.289 --> 01:13:37.609
and you're just kind of standing around staring

01:13:37.609 --> 01:13:40.210
at these, these, you know, just, you're completely

01:13:40.210 --> 01:13:46.149
entranced and boy, you know, that's hard. That's

01:13:46.149 --> 01:13:47.949
hard to see and not think like, well, there's

01:13:47.949 --> 01:13:50.069
a, there's a logical extent to where this goes.

01:13:50.229 --> 01:13:52.069
And if we're not willing to walk it back a little

01:13:52.069 --> 01:13:55.630
bit or, or turn the ship, that's probably not

01:13:55.630 --> 01:13:58.899
a good, good ending. Yeah, well, I think there's

01:13:58.899 --> 01:14:01.520
this kind of fat shaming conversation. I think

01:14:01.520 --> 01:14:04.020
most people miss the point. Yes, there are some

01:14:04.020 --> 01:14:07.279
nasty human beings that make fun of people that

01:14:07.279 --> 01:14:09.180
are overweight, but we all know that they're

01:14:09.180 --> 01:14:11.960
just dying inside and they need help, you know,

01:14:11.960 --> 01:14:14.920
themselves, the people making fun of the people

01:14:14.920 --> 01:14:17.239
that are overweight. But most of this conversation

01:14:17.239 --> 01:14:19.500
is coming from a place of empathy. It's coming

01:14:19.500 --> 01:14:22.100
from a place of kindness. Like, you know, imagine

01:14:22.100 --> 01:14:24.970
if you were able to go and truly. kick the ball

01:14:24.970 --> 01:14:27.289
around with your kids, and they had the capacity

01:14:27.289 --> 01:14:29.289
to do it, and you as a 50 -year -old dad could

01:14:29.289 --> 01:14:32.149
still do it, that's being robbed from you because

01:14:32.149 --> 01:14:34.449
of the environment you're in and the choices

01:14:34.449 --> 01:14:36.310
that you've made because of that environment.

01:14:36.909 --> 01:14:38.649
And then you think about it from a national security

01:14:38.649 --> 01:14:40.670
point of view. You don't think that certain enemies

01:14:40.670 --> 01:14:42.949
of the country are also looking in Walmart and

01:14:42.949 --> 01:14:44.930
bowling alleys and Universal Studios and going,

01:14:45.050 --> 01:14:48.289
all right, just keep waiting. There's going to

01:14:48.289 --> 01:14:50.409
be a time when we're just going to walk in. Yeah,

01:14:50.409 --> 01:14:52.609
there's lots of guns, but I don't know if they're

01:14:52.609 --> 01:14:54.819
going to even be able to... make the run to their

01:14:54.819 --> 01:14:57.960
gun, to be honest. And I'm being facetious, but

01:14:57.960 --> 01:15:00.399
it's true. The national security impact of this,

01:15:00.479 --> 01:15:02.819
we've got all these people passionately talking

01:15:02.819 --> 01:15:05.239
about Second Amendment and all that stuff, but

01:15:05.239 --> 01:15:08.069
we have an obesity crisis. So those two don't

01:15:08.069 --> 01:15:11.109
go hand in hand. I mean, I'm talking to a subject

01:15:11.109 --> 01:15:14.529
matter expert. I've done basal level weapons

01:15:14.529 --> 01:15:17.470
training. And yeah, if you don't have the physical

01:15:17.470 --> 01:15:19.909
capacity and the ability to calm your mind, just

01:15:19.909 --> 01:15:22.170
like we were talking about with golf, and someone

01:15:22.170 --> 01:15:25.130
walks into your child's school or Walmart, then

01:15:25.130 --> 01:15:27.470
you're not going to be effective. You're telling

01:15:27.470 --> 01:15:30.789
yourself a lie. So no matter how you look at

01:15:30.789 --> 01:15:32.550
it, whether it's police and fire, whether it's

01:15:32.550 --> 01:15:35.529
our civilians. There's such a beautiful opportunity

01:15:35.529 --> 01:15:38.909
to start at home and then permeate out. And,

01:15:38.989 --> 01:15:41.930
you know, when you are a healthier human being,

01:15:42.029 --> 01:15:44.229
you will most likely be a happier human being.

01:15:44.470 --> 01:15:47.090
Your children are going to watch you in CrossFit

01:15:47.090 --> 01:15:49.970
and jujitsu doing the tactical games. They're

01:15:49.970 --> 01:15:52.210
going to start mirroring what you do. And then

01:15:52.210 --> 01:15:54.970
you've domino effect in a positive way. But it

01:15:54.970 --> 01:15:56.729
breaks my heart when you see these kids. And

01:15:56.729 --> 01:15:59.449
I was a stuntman at Universal for 20 years. I

01:15:59.449 --> 01:16:01.630
just finished the Bourne stunt show there about

01:16:01.630 --> 01:16:04.399
two years ago. And so I saw it every single day.

01:16:04.500 --> 01:16:07.039
And these poor kids are doomed because they're

01:16:07.039 --> 01:16:10.380
obese at eight years old. You're telling your

01:16:10.380 --> 01:16:12.600
child, all right, we're going to set you 12 steps

01:16:12.600 --> 01:16:15.079
back in life because of the way that we're feeding

01:16:15.079 --> 01:16:17.840
you. So this is what drives me crazy when there's

01:16:17.840 --> 01:16:21.159
all this vitriol about these politicians. I just

01:16:21.159 --> 01:16:24.039
want someone to say, hey, we have a massive health

01:16:24.039 --> 01:16:27.020
crisis in this country. I know RFK has been brought

01:16:27.020 --> 01:16:29.000
in, but I'm talking about the people that we're

01:16:29.000 --> 01:16:31.899
supposed to be choosing from. Talk about the

01:16:31.899 --> 01:16:33.920
health crisis. Talk about the fentanyl crisis.

01:16:33.960 --> 01:16:36.159
Talk about the homelessness, the things that

01:16:36.159 --> 01:16:39.060
are actually affecting every single person. Because

01:16:39.060 --> 01:16:41.380
if you're talking about Ukraine and China and

01:16:41.380 --> 01:16:43.979
all these countries that the average person has

01:16:43.979 --> 01:16:47.619
no influence on at all, as you said, there'll

01:16:47.619 --> 01:16:49.560
be keyboard warriors about it, but it involves

01:16:49.560 --> 01:16:52.199
them doing nothing. There needs to be a call

01:16:52.199 --> 01:16:55.479
to action for all of us to retain our health

01:16:55.479 --> 01:16:58.760
and then create an environment that allows people

01:16:58.760 --> 01:17:01.739
to make good choices. If you, you know, if PE

01:17:01.739 --> 01:17:03.539
is canceled in your kid's school and they're

01:17:03.539 --> 01:17:05.939
serving pizza and lunch, what are the chances

01:17:05.939 --> 01:17:08.239
of that kid being, you know, an athlete when

01:17:08.239 --> 01:17:10.939
they're older? We're not doing our kids any favor

01:17:10.939 --> 01:17:15.859
at all. No, it's the kids that I feel the worst

01:17:15.859 --> 01:17:20.079
for by far. And, you know, we moved from Florida

01:17:20.079 --> 01:17:22.760
to Maine a couple of years ago for lots of reasons,

01:17:22.960 --> 01:17:24.640
many of them kind of personal and family reasons.

01:17:24.760 --> 01:17:26.979
But one of the things I love so much about being

01:17:26.979 --> 01:17:30.020
here is that, you know. For example, it's very

01:17:30.020 --> 01:17:32.819
cold today. There's snow everywhere. And my daughter

01:17:32.819 --> 01:17:36.100
for PE today is snowshoeing. So they have, you

01:17:36.100 --> 01:17:38.220
know, dozens of second graders out there. It's

01:17:38.220 --> 01:17:39.760
freezing cold and they just bundle up and they

01:17:39.760 --> 01:17:41.460
go snowshoeing. Last week they went sledding.

01:17:42.119 --> 01:17:44.300
This is real stuff. You know, and you look at

01:17:44.300 --> 01:17:46.960
their, the food they have in the morning, they

01:17:46.960 --> 01:17:48.720
say the kids can have, you know, they can only

01:17:48.720 --> 01:17:50.000
have one thing with sugar in it and they have

01:17:50.000 --> 01:17:52.180
to have two other things. And it's not perfect,

01:17:52.239 --> 01:17:54.319
but at least there's some humanity in it still.

01:17:54.930 --> 01:17:57.890
There's some involvement from the staff and the

01:17:57.890 --> 01:18:00.430
teachers and the parents and the community. And

01:18:00.430 --> 01:18:02.449
perhaps it's because we live in a smaller place

01:18:02.449 --> 01:18:04.250
and, you know, it's not a major metro per se.

01:18:04.329 --> 01:18:09.130
But, you know, you said happy, which I think

01:18:09.130 --> 01:18:12.229
is a sort of an elusive word, but I would say

01:18:12.229 --> 01:18:16.449
fulfilled or joyful. People don't really know

01:18:16.449 --> 01:18:19.090
how fulfilled and joyful they can be doing somewhat

01:18:19.090 --> 01:18:22.189
ordinary things until they strip away so many

01:18:22.189 --> 01:18:23.909
of these kind of distractions that are numbing

01:18:23.909 --> 01:18:27.020
us. And I think kids are being robbed of it first

01:18:27.020 --> 01:18:28.899
and foremost, but I see it with so many adults

01:18:28.899 --> 01:18:31.760
too. I see it even in myself from time to time

01:18:31.760 --> 01:18:34.659
between looking at my phone or drinking a beer

01:18:34.659 --> 01:18:38.699
or watching TV. I mean, I've got limitless opportunities

01:18:38.699 --> 01:18:42.260
to sort of dull or numb myself or amuse myself

01:18:42.260 --> 01:18:45.079
to where I don't get the same fulfillment that

01:18:45.079 --> 01:18:48.060
I get from a good hard workout or growing my

01:18:48.060 --> 01:18:52.000
own strawberries in our garden. To see my daughter

01:18:52.000 --> 01:18:53.739
with a basket full of vegetables that she picked

01:18:53.739 --> 01:18:55.600
from our garden that she spent time working on,

01:18:55.680 --> 01:18:59.319
that's not a kid that feels like they got a raw

01:18:59.319 --> 01:19:03.020
deal. That smile is saying like, I did this.

01:19:03.359 --> 01:19:05.840
I made this. I'm going to go cut this up. I'm

01:19:05.840 --> 01:19:07.920
going to wash this and cut it for dinner. There's

01:19:07.920 --> 01:19:09.819
a level of joy and fulfillment there that cannot

01:19:09.819 --> 01:19:12.340
be replicated in a video game or something else.

01:19:12.560 --> 01:19:18.039
And other than just telling people, just have

01:19:18.039 --> 01:19:21.079
more discipline. It's very hard. Because there

01:19:21.079 --> 01:19:23.880
are, you know, I'm not a big government guy by

01:19:23.880 --> 01:19:26.039
any stretch of the imagination, but if no one

01:19:26.039 --> 01:19:28.159
is looking out for people or putting guardrails

01:19:28.159 --> 01:19:30.380
on some of these things, we're totally screwed.

01:19:30.699 --> 01:19:33.859
I mean, I have two teenage sons, both of whom

01:19:33.859 --> 01:19:37.239
have effectively unlimited access to the internet,

01:19:37.420 --> 01:19:40.699
which is everything from porn on down. They have

01:19:40.699 --> 01:19:43.500
unlimited access to vapes, you know, nicotine,

01:19:43.800 --> 01:19:49.710
cannabis, you name it. I don't know how I'm supposed

01:19:49.710 --> 01:19:51.930
to tell these kids like, hey, you should be in

01:19:51.930 --> 01:19:53.710
the gym more, you should run more, you should

01:19:53.710 --> 01:19:56.149
study more, you should read more books, when

01:19:56.149 --> 01:19:58.869
they are living in a world where at their fingertips,

01:19:59.050 --> 01:20:02.149
they have unlimited access to things that feel

01:20:02.149 --> 01:20:05.670
good in the moment and like numb and dull their

01:20:05.670 --> 01:20:07.869
experience of the world. It's heartbreaking.

01:20:08.090 --> 01:20:09.890
It's heartbreaking for me as their dad, and it's

01:20:09.890 --> 01:20:12.670
heartbreaking to see it broadly. And if we don't

01:20:12.670 --> 01:20:16.289
have somebody at the government level who's willing

01:20:16.289 --> 01:20:20.279
to stand in and say, hey, we can't keep feeding

01:20:20.279 --> 01:20:22.140
this to people. Hey, you got to put a warning

01:20:22.140 --> 01:20:24.020
label on that. Hey, that should be inaccessible

01:20:24.020 --> 01:20:25.779
to kids. And you see little things like the jewel

01:20:25.779 --> 01:20:28.340
pods. And I'm cool with that. I'm glad that we're

01:20:28.340 --> 01:20:33.600
seeing some traction. But if we, this stuff is

01:20:33.600 --> 01:20:36.500
insanely powerful, you know, social media algorithms,

01:20:36.979 --> 01:20:39.939
nicotine, like what are we doing to get our arms

01:20:39.939 --> 01:20:41.979
around this stuff? Because once it gets its claws

01:20:41.979 --> 01:20:46.670
in anybody, kid or adult. Again, look around,

01:20:46.869 --> 01:20:48.649
just go into your community and look around and

01:20:48.649 --> 01:20:52.689
find somebody who's not vaping, drinking, taking

01:20:52.689 --> 01:20:56.170
THC gummies, looking at their phone. Like you

01:20:56.170 --> 01:20:58.109
can't find them. They almost don't exist. We've

01:20:58.109 --> 01:21:01.130
all just been like mainline to this stuff. And

01:21:01.130 --> 01:21:04.149
it's like, well, individual responsibility. You're

01:21:04.149 --> 01:21:05.550
not going to find somebody, James, who's bigger

01:21:05.550 --> 01:21:07.590
on individual responsibility than I am. And I'm

01:21:07.590 --> 01:21:09.890
here to tell you, if we just go laissez faire

01:21:09.890 --> 01:21:12.569
on all this stuff, like we're screwed. Everyone's

01:21:12.569 --> 01:21:15.159
nuked. Well, if you watch the documentary, The

01:21:15.159 --> 01:21:17.680
Social Dilemma that they did on social media,

01:21:17.840 --> 01:21:20.920
the number of I think it was all men in this

01:21:20.920 --> 01:21:25.279
case that were behind programming these apps

01:21:25.279 --> 01:21:28.880
that literally said they had to lock away their

01:21:28.880 --> 01:21:30.739
phones from themselves, from their children.

01:21:31.180 --> 01:21:34.020
They know the complete inner workings of them,

01:21:34.039 --> 01:21:36.180
and they still were getting the same kind of

01:21:36.180 --> 01:21:39.119
dopamine hits and the addictive qualities. So

01:21:39.119 --> 01:21:40.819
they banned their kids from using them until

01:21:40.819 --> 01:21:43.000
they were 16. And you're saying that I think

01:21:43.000 --> 01:21:47.399
Australia has moved it to 16 now for social media.

01:21:47.479 --> 01:21:50.000
I think Florida went to 14, if I'm not mistaken.

01:21:50.000 --> 01:21:52.600
So there's starting to be some of this on the

01:21:52.600 --> 01:21:55.079
social media side. But again, kind of just to

01:21:55.079 --> 01:21:58.630
underline what you said. I'm absolutely drawn

01:21:58.630 --> 01:22:00.869
to these. I mean, I use the phone to promote

01:22:00.869 --> 01:22:04.909
the podcast. And there's times where I'm meditating

01:22:04.909 --> 01:22:07.449
again now. That is an absolute antidote to being

01:22:07.449 --> 01:22:09.630
drawn into social media. But when I wasn't and

01:22:09.630 --> 01:22:12.430
I had the monkey brain going on, same thing.

01:22:12.449 --> 01:22:14.409
When there was a moment where I wasn't doing

01:22:14.409 --> 01:22:16.829
anything, I'd reach for the phone. And I'm not

01:22:16.829 --> 01:22:18.909
even a big scroller, but I check emails. I check

01:22:18.909 --> 01:22:22.569
messages. I check, again, someone's giving me

01:22:22.569 --> 01:22:24.350
some sort of interaction that will give you that

01:22:24.350 --> 01:22:26.760
dopamine and serotonin and all that. all the

01:22:26.760 --> 01:22:30.800
hits that we get so addicted to. So if we manage

01:22:30.800 --> 01:22:34.319
to do without social media for millennia, it's

01:22:34.319 --> 01:22:36.439
not going to kill you to just tell your child,

01:22:36.520 --> 01:22:39.979
hey, you know, I'll give you access to apps that

01:22:39.979 --> 01:22:42.659
will allow you to learn and explore. But these

01:22:42.659 --> 01:22:44.520
social media ones, you just don't need them.

01:22:44.600 --> 01:22:47.220
You do not need them because even the adults

01:22:47.220 --> 01:22:49.460
on there are not the adults that you need to

01:22:49.460 --> 01:22:54.239
be mimicking. Trust me. Most of them are narcissistic

01:22:54.239 --> 01:22:56.380
shitbags that really need to do some self -work

01:22:56.380 --> 01:23:03.279
and get off social media. I agree. All right.

01:23:03.279 --> 01:23:05.319
Well, I want to get to what you're doing now.

01:23:05.439 --> 01:23:09.060
So let's hit the transition. You went to the

01:23:09.060 --> 01:23:13.039
SF community. What made you decide to transition

01:23:13.039 --> 01:23:17.020
out of the military? And then again, the... The

01:23:17.020 --> 01:23:19.880
transition itself can be very jarring to a lot

01:23:19.880 --> 01:23:21.560
of people. You've had this tribe, you've had

01:23:21.560 --> 01:23:24.520
this purpose, you've had this identity. What

01:23:24.520 --> 01:23:26.800
made you transition out? And then what was your

01:23:26.800 --> 01:23:31.439
experience like personally? Sure. So I mentioned

01:23:31.439 --> 01:23:33.260
earlier, I didn't really intend on staying in

01:23:33.260 --> 01:23:35.340
beyond my five years. I never saw myself having

01:23:35.340 --> 01:23:38.140
a career in the military. And then the events

01:23:38.140 --> 01:23:42.659
of 9 -11 and the events thereafter really pulled

01:23:42.659 --> 01:23:44.279
me into the special forces community. And so

01:23:44.279 --> 01:23:46.819
I went and did that. Looked like I was going

01:23:46.819 --> 01:23:48.739
to end up doing at least about nine years, probably

01:23:48.739 --> 01:23:50.739
on active duty, given my training and additional

01:23:50.739 --> 01:23:53.520
commitment there. And I still kind of thought

01:23:53.520 --> 01:23:56.760
maybe I would move on. I actually, while I was

01:23:56.760 --> 01:23:59.140
on a team, went and interviewed and applied for

01:23:59.140 --> 01:24:01.140
a job teaching at West Point. So I would finish

01:24:01.140 --> 01:24:02.880
my time up in the Special Forces community as

01:24:02.880 --> 01:24:05.220
a commander, go to some grad school and then

01:24:05.220 --> 01:24:06.960
go teach at West Point, which was really appealing

01:24:06.960 --> 01:24:09.920
to me for lots of reasons. Some of them family

01:24:09.920 --> 01:24:11.920
reasons, but also because I really wanted an

01:24:11.920 --> 01:24:13.899
opportunity to kind of invest in the cadets and

01:24:13.899 --> 01:24:17.119
be in that environment. And sort of last minute,

01:24:17.239 --> 01:24:19.739
the Special Forces branch kind of unceremoniously

01:24:19.739 --> 01:24:22.579
just denied my by name request to go do that

01:24:22.579 --> 01:24:24.500
job. And so and it was right before I was getting

01:24:24.500 --> 01:24:27.699
ready to deploy for the last time. And it made

01:24:27.699 --> 01:24:30.300
me realize that I really loved soldiers and I

01:24:30.300 --> 01:24:32.279
love soldiering, but I didn't really love the

01:24:32.279 --> 01:24:35.359
army. And they didn't love me either, you know.

01:24:35.600 --> 01:24:39.119
And at the time, I had a young son who I was

01:24:39.119 --> 01:24:40.899
basically not around for because he was born

01:24:40.899 --> 01:24:42.619
while I was in the Q course, the Special Forces

01:24:42.619 --> 01:24:45.840
qualification course. And for the first few years

01:24:45.840 --> 01:24:47.340
of his life, I was just kind of gone all the

01:24:47.340 --> 01:24:49.880
time. And then I had another son who was on the

01:24:49.880 --> 01:24:52.380
way as I left for my last deployment. So my then

01:24:52.380 --> 01:24:55.380
wife was pregnant with him. And we just decided

01:24:55.380 --> 01:24:57.159
like, hey, this is going to be it. You know,

01:24:57.180 --> 01:24:59.680
I'll finish up my time on a team. And once I,

01:24:59.739 --> 01:25:02.140
you know, kind of relinquish command and finish

01:25:02.140 --> 01:25:04.220
this up, we'll transition out of the Army and

01:25:04.220 --> 01:25:07.760
turn the page and do the next thing. And then

01:25:07.760 --> 01:25:09.600
on that last deployment, and I alluded to this

01:25:09.600 --> 01:25:12.520
earlier. Four of my teammates and one of our

01:25:12.520 --> 01:25:15.399
interpreters was killed in a span of about eight

01:25:15.399 --> 01:25:19.699
days. And that was obviously a very difficult

01:25:19.699 --> 01:25:24.880
and intense experience. And my son, I didn't

01:25:24.880 --> 01:25:26.739
know if I was going to ever meet my son because

01:25:26.739 --> 01:25:31.319
it was not looking good there for a while. I'll

01:25:31.319 --> 01:25:34.699
just put it that way. But I made it back home.

01:25:34.899 --> 01:25:36.659
My son was born a week or two after I got home

01:25:36.659 --> 01:25:39.659
from that deployment. And I'd already let the

01:25:39.659 --> 01:25:40.899
command know I was planning on transitioning

01:25:40.899 --> 01:25:48.159
out. And James, it wasn't this way, but this

01:25:48.159 --> 01:25:51.319
is how it felt. I felt like I had a great Army

01:25:51.319 --> 01:25:53.500
career, had done a really great job, and went

01:25:53.500 --> 01:25:55.279
on my last deployment, got my ass kicked, and

01:25:55.279 --> 01:25:59.659
then I just sort of quit. Which, again, was not

01:25:59.659 --> 01:26:02.260
my plan. It's not really what happened, but that's

01:26:02.260 --> 01:26:05.579
how it felt for a long time. And it didn't sit

01:26:05.579 --> 01:26:07.880
well with me to finish my career that way, which

01:26:07.880 --> 01:26:10.359
was otherwise a really, you know, exciting and

01:26:10.359 --> 01:26:14.619
fun and successful career. And I think, you know,

01:26:14.640 --> 01:26:17.020
my wife and I felt like we had these two very

01:26:17.020 --> 01:26:18.520
young boys and we were going to kind of turn

01:26:18.520 --> 01:26:21.079
the page and move to Florida and get a real job

01:26:21.079 --> 01:26:23.819
and have a swimming pool. And everything was

01:26:23.819 --> 01:26:25.199
going to be awesome now that we didn't have this

01:26:25.199 --> 01:26:28.260
pesky army thing on our back anymore. And that

01:26:28.260 --> 01:26:30.479
was stupid. I mean, we just didn't, we didn't

01:26:30.479 --> 01:26:32.079
have our act together. We didn't know what we

01:26:32.079 --> 01:26:33.890
didn't know. Things were very different back

01:26:33.890 --> 01:26:38.770
then. This was 2010. And we just didn't have

01:26:38.770 --> 01:26:41.369
enough conversations about what we expected from

01:26:41.369 --> 01:26:44.310
life beyond military. We didn't work together

01:26:44.310 --> 01:26:49.229
on some of the finer points of what we expected

01:26:49.229 --> 01:26:50.869
from one another and what life was going to be

01:26:50.869 --> 01:26:53.630
like and all of that. And the short version of

01:26:53.630 --> 01:26:56.090
a very long story is that our marriage kind of

01:26:56.090 --> 01:26:57.949
fell apart a couple of years after getting out

01:26:57.949 --> 01:27:00.640
of the Army. I was working in a healthcare sales

01:27:00.640 --> 01:27:02.399
job, which paid me really well. It was a pretty

01:27:02.399 --> 01:27:05.220
good job. I didn't hate it, but it was nothing

01:27:05.220 --> 01:27:09.319
like being an SF officer. So I was really struggling

01:27:09.319 --> 01:27:11.619
on the inside with who I was as a person and

01:27:11.619 --> 01:27:14.140
what I was going to do with the rest of my life.

01:27:14.840 --> 01:27:18.159
I felt a lot of guilt and shame about my teammates

01:27:18.159 --> 01:27:20.279
being killed because they were my responsibility.

01:27:21.899 --> 01:27:23.500
Now I'm just really torn up on the inside. I

01:27:23.500 --> 01:27:24.840
didn't know what to do about it. And it seems

01:27:24.840 --> 01:27:27.529
silly now, but at the time... I couldn't really

01:27:27.529 --> 01:27:29.890
put my finger on what was bothering me. I just

01:27:29.890 --> 01:27:31.909
had kind of this general malaise. I wasn't like

01:27:31.909 --> 01:27:36.250
super crazy angry or like, you know, having night

01:27:36.250 --> 01:27:39.550
sweats every night. I just had kind of a, man,

01:27:39.590 --> 01:27:42.109
I just don't feel very enthusiastic about life,

01:27:42.229 --> 01:27:44.750
you know, and I feel more frustrated and irritable,

01:27:44.869 --> 01:27:48.750
you know. And then our marriage fell apart fairly

01:27:48.750 --> 01:27:50.810
quickly, or it was probably one of those deals

01:27:50.810 --> 01:27:52.609
where it kind of happened a little at a time

01:27:52.609 --> 01:27:56.029
and then all at once, you know. But I found myself

01:27:56.029 --> 01:28:00.810
very quickly as a single dad who had gone from

01:28:00.810 --> 01:28:05.470
being a very successful kid, a West Point cadet,

01:28:05.470 --> 01:28:08.050
graduated high in my class, became an SF officer,

01:28:08.189 --> 01:28:10.170
was always ranked at the top of my peer group,

01:28:10.289 --> 01:28:15.029
to being a medical sales guy who maybe had been

01:28:15.029 --> 01:28:18.430
a bad officer who got his friends killed, and

01:28:18.430 --> 01:28:21.329
a bad husband whose wife left him, and a bad

01:28:21.329 --> 01:28:23.069
dad who wasn't with his kids every night anymore.

01:28:24.119 --> 01:28:27.939
And it really, really beat me up. And I finally

01:28:27.939 --> 01:28:31.039
said, oh, this isn't working. So I went in the

01:28:31.039 --> 01:28:33.979
front door of the Tampa VA and asked some nice

01:28:33.979 --> 01:28:37.119
lady in sneakers, like, hey, could I get signed

01:28:37.119 --> 01:28:38.539
up for something here? I feel like maybe I need

01:28:38.539 --> 01:28:40.939
to talk to somebody. They were actually really

01:28:40.939 --> 01:28:43.380
good to me. I have a pretty good news VA story.

01:28:43.460 --> 01:28:45.079
I know a lot of people don't, but they were good

01:28:45.079 --> 01:28:46.899
to me. And they got me set up with an ID card

01:28:46.899 --> 01:28:50.979
and enrolled in care. You know, a few weeks later,

01:28:51.020 --> 01:28:53.039
I went to my first appointment to see a doc at

01:28:53.039 --> 01:28:56.159
the polytrauma clinic at the Tampa VA. And I

01:28:56.159 --> 01:28:59.039
went and saw Dr. A every Monday morning at 7

01:28:59.039 --> 01:29:02.039
a .m. for several months. And he really helped

01:29:02.039 --> 01:29:04.199
me to realize that, you know, I was a normal

01:29:04.199 --> 01:29:06.100
person that had been through some pretty abnormal

01:29:06.100 --> 01:29:10.600
stuff. And I was doing my best and that there

01:29:10.600 --> 01:29:13.300
was a path forward. And I started working out

01:29:13.300 --> 01:29:15.199
again pretty vigorously and running every morning.

01:29:16.289 --> 01:29:18.090
you know, trying to be really present with my

01:29:18.090 --> 01:29:20.590
kids on the 50 % of the time or whatever that

01:29:20.590 --> 01:29:24.130
I had them. And, um, the biggest thing is I,

01:29:24.210 --> 01:29:25.630
maybe not the biggest thing, but another big

01:29:25.630 --> 01:29:27.109
thing is I went out and tried to start making

01:29:27.109 --> 01:29:30.130
friends. And so I felt very isolated when I left

01:29:30.130 --> 01:29:32.170
the military. I just kind of me and my family,

01:29:32.170 --> 01:29:34.270
and it wasn't, it wasn't fair to me or to them

01:29:34.270 --> 01:29:37.649
or anybody to try to live life that way. But

01:29:37.649 --> 01:29:39.369
I didn't really know how to make friends outside

01:29:39.369 --> 01:29:41.609
the military. I'd been in the military my entire

01:29:41.609 --> 01:29:45.680
adult life. And, uh, I certainly didn't know

01:29:45.680 --> 01:29:47.140
how to date. That was a whole separate thing.

01:29:47.260 --> 01:29:49.899
But I just started going out to running clubs

01:29:49.899 --> 01:29:53.579
at local pubs in South Tampa. And I immediately

01:29:53.579 --> 01:29:56.600
made friends. And it felt good to be out in the

01:29:56.600 --> 01:29:58.840
sunshine running and making friends and maybe

01:29:58.840 --> 01:30:02.380
having a glass of beer afterwards. It felt weird,

01:30:02.439 --> 01:30:06.439
but it felt great. And I was reminded that I

01:30:06.439 --> 01:30:10.609
wasn't a shitty person. People liked me, you

01:30:10.609 --> 01:30:12.109
know, and they wanted to invite me to things

01:30:12.109 --> 01:30:14.470
and sometimes laughed at my jokes and some, some

01:30:14.470 --> 01:30:16.390
girls thought I was handsome and it just, it,

01:30:16.470 --> 01:30:20.210
I had to put myself out there and I started playing

01:30:20.210 --> 01:30:25.229
rec soccer and CrossFit and yeah, trajectory

01:30:25.229 --> 01:30:27.289
of my life bent, bent pretty positive pretty

01:30:27.289 --> 01:30:31.750
quickly, but it was a pretty dark, deep bottom

01:30:31.750 --> 01:30:34.670
to kind of wake me up and get me moving in the

01:30:34.670 --> 01:30:37.649
right direction. Did you ever get to that point

01:30:37.649 --> 01:30:41.890
of suicide ideation? No, I can honestly say I

01:30:41.890 --> 01:30:47.729
didn't. I felt at times very rudderless and kind

01:30:47.729 --> 01:30:50.689
of hopeless, but I feel very fortunate that I

01:30:50.689 --> 01:30:54.569
never felt like me going away or ending my life

01:30:54.569 --> 01:30:58.989
would be the best thing to do. And I don't know

01:30:58.989 --> 01:31:01.189
why that was the case for me. Again, I feel very

01:31:01.189 --> 01:31:04.010
fortunate that though I struggled mightily, I

01:31:04.010 --> 01:31:09.869
never got to that point. Yeah, I was fortunate.

01:31:09.970 --> 01:31:11.970
I had parents I could lean on. I went and spent

01:31:11.970 --> 01:31:14.810
a couple days with my folks when my ex -wife

01:31:14.810 --> 01:31:15.989
said, hey, this is it. I don't want to do this

01:31:15.989 --> 01:31:18.130
anymore. I didn't really know what to do, and

01:31:18.130 --> 01:31:19.609
I was very lucky that I could call up my parents,

01:31:19.670 --> 01:31:20.890
and they were a couple hours away, and I said,

01:31:20.909 --> 01:31:22.050
can I just come stay with you for the weekend?

01:31:22.590 --> 01:31:24.649
Maybe you can help me think through what I need

01:31:24.649 --> 01:31:28.729
to do now. My dad had just retired, and I would

01:31:28.729 --> 01:31:30.569
call him almost every day when I was out making

01:31:30.569 --> 01:31:32.489
my sales calls, driving around the state of Florida.

01:31:33.320 --> 01:31:35.399
you know, and just to have someone to talk to.

01:31:35.479 --> 01:31:37.260
I started calling up old army buddies and West

01:31:37.260 --> 01:31:40.260
Point classmates and saying, hey, just to talk

01:31:40.260 --> 01:31:41.619
to them, not to say like, hey, my life's falling

01:31:41.619 --> 01:31:46.899
apart. Can you help me? And I was very lucky

01:31:46.899 --> 01:31:48.960
that I had all those people in my life. But I

01:31:48.960 --> 01:31:51.380
will also say that I had to pick up the phone

01:31:51.380 --> 01:31:55.020
and make those calls. No one just said, I'm going

01:31:55.020 --> 01:31:56.960
to lasso you and bring you to this running club,

01:31:57.100 --> 01:31:59.199
or I'm going to force you in the front doors

01:31:59.199 --> 01:32:02.399
of the VA and make you go to therapy. Or I'm

01:32:02.399 --> 01:32:03.800
going to reach out to a friend I haven't talked

01:32:03.800 --> 01:32:05.979
to in five years to say what's up. I had to do

01:32:05.979 --> 01:32:07.539
all that. And it was very, very uncomfortable.

01:32:08.380 --> 01:32:10.720
So I give myself credit for that at this point.

01:32:10.800 --> 01:32:14.079
But I also realized how very lucky I was to have

01:32:14.079 --> 01:32:16.939
people I could talk to and that could buoy me

01:32:16.939 --> 01:32:19.079
a little bit when I was in a really bad spot.

01:32:20.060 --> 01:32:22.420
It's really interesting. It's not an absolute

01:32:22.420 --> 01:32:26.380
correlation, but it's extremely strong. A lot

01:32:26.380 --> 01:32:28.100
of people that have been on the show that have

01:32:28.100 --> 01:32:30.119
been in that darkest of places. I mean, they're

01:32:30.119 --> 01:32:31.760
literally sitting there holding the weapon and

01:32:31.760 --> 01:32:35.260
the bottle of whiskey. More often than not, there

01:32:35.260 --> 01:32:38.380
is an element of childhood trauma, you know,

01:32:38.380 --> 01:32:40.739
and some of it is sexual abuse. Some of it's,

01:32:40.739 --> 01:32:42.479
you know, one parent was never there, whatever

01:32:42.479 --> 01:32:46.220
it was. And it seems to be that when someone

01:32:46.220 --> 01:32:49.079
still was struggling because you're going to

01:32:49.079 --> 01:32:51.119
you've been through war, you've been a firefighter,

01:32:51.119 --> 01:32:53.619
whatever your thing is. but they never got to

01:32:53.619 --> 01:32:57.279
that lowest of places, a lot of times it's because

01:32:57.279 --> 01:32:59.640
that childhood was kind of, that was that strong

01:32:59.640 --> 01:33:02.180
foundation. And this is, I think, a really important

01:33:02.180 --> 01:33:05.340
takeaway for us. You can have struggles when

01:33:05.340 --> 01:33:07.640
you were younger, but if you're in an environment

01:33:07.640 --> 01:33:10.180
that allowed you to process it when you were

01:33:10.180 --> 01:33:13.260
that age or shortly after, those struggles, I

01:33:13.260 --> 01:33:15.840
believe, become resilience and they become strength.

01:33:16.399 --> 01:33:20.119
But if they're buried down and locked away. then

01:33:20.119 --> 01:33:22.220
that's a crack in your foundation. I think that's

01:33:22.220 --> 01:33:24.220
why we see a lot of our men and women struggle

01:33:24.220 --> 01:33:27.039
to that depth sometimes. And they've only been

01:33:27.039 --> 01:33:29.340
on two, three years because we're not looking

01:33:29.340 --> 01:33:31.880
at those formative years as part of this overall

01:33:31.880 --> 01:33:35.060
picture when it comes to not feeling suicidal

01:33:35.060 --> 01:33:38.399
or sadly at the other side of the coin, the overdoses

01:33:38.399 --> 01:33:41.680
and the suicides that we see. I totally agree.

01:33:41.899 --> 01:33:43.979
Totally agree. The complex trauma is what really

01:33:43.979 --> 01:33:47.880
gets a lot of folks. I remember taking the adverse

01:33:47.880 --> 01:33:50.739
childhood events battery, the ACE or ACEs thing,

01:33:50.920 --> 01:33:56.859
and my score was zero. I had a wonderful childhood.

01:33:57.000 --> 01:33:58.520
It wasn't perfect, but my parents loved me and

01:33:58.520 --> 01:34:01.199
they were there and I had a good childhood. And

01:34:01.199 --> 01:34:04.140
I then had the ability to lean on them a little

01:34:04.140 --> 01:34:09.279
bit and my friends when it mattered most. And

01:34:09.279 --> 01:34:12.369
I think also... You know, again, not to like

01:34:12.369 --> 01:34:14.210
toot my own horn here too much, but one of the

01:34:14.210 --> 01:34:17.270
other things that I recognized immediately was

01:34:17.270 --> 01:34:19.510
the temptation to be shitty to other people because

01:34:19.510 --> 01:34:22.050
I felt so unfairly treated by the world and by

01:34:22.050 --> 01:34:25.050
my ex -wife. And I felt like I really got screwed

01:34:25.050 --> 01:34:26.949
in my life. I was having this kind of unfair

01:34:26.949 --> 01:34:30.029
outcome. And there was just a little voice inside

01:34:30.029 --> 01:34:31.590
my head that said, hey, this doesn't give you

01:34:31.590 --> 01:34:33.989
an excuse to be shitty to other people. You know,

01:34:34.090 --> 01:34:37.369
even your ex -wife who you're angry with, like

01:34:37.369 --> 01:34:40.780
you're going to have to be decent to her. in

01:34:40.780 --> 01:34:42.739
perpetuity, even if you don't want to be. You

01:34:42.739 --> 01:34:44.939
can't take this out on your kids, which was hard

01:34:44.939 --> 01:34:47.060
at times too. I was imperfect there for sure.

01:34:47.560 --> 01:34:49.720
You can't take this out on other women. You can't

01:34:49.720 --> 01:34:52.800
go out and just be an asshole to women and use

01:34:52.800 --> 01:34:54.420
and abuse them, which was probably available

01:34:54.420 --> 01:34:57.079
to me at the time. Again, I don't know where

01:34:57.079 --> 01:34:59.539
that voice came from. I don't know if it was

01:34:59.539 --> 01:35:03.199
my parents or just morality or what it was, but

01:35:03.199 --> 01:35:05.819
I, again, feel very, very lucky that I did not

01:35:05.819 --> 01:35:10.479
spiral uncontrollably. because I felt very, very

01:35:10.479 --> 01:35:12.819
much at the bottom. And I suppose it could have

01:35:12.819 --> 01:35:15.140
been worse. I think that circles around to what

01:35:15.140 --> 01:35:17.300
we're talking about as far as compassion, empathy,

01:35:17.460 --> 01:35:20.039
and evolution. You know, that part of this whole

01:35:20.039 --> 01:35:22.340
conversation is the mental health crisis that

01:35:22.340 --> 01:35:24.819
we're in. And there's a lot of multi -generational

01:35:24.819 --> 01:35:26.500
trauma in the world. I mean, this is my, I just

01:35:26.500 --> 01:35:28.899
finished my book last year, the second one. And

01:35:28.899 --> 01:35:32.479
it's arguably almost a historical fiction, but

01:35:32.479 --> 01:35:34.520
it's a modern day firefighter and it goes back

01:35:34.520 --> 01:35:37.119
and he's learning about his father and his grandfather.

01:35:37.659 --> 01:35:40.239
And this is so many people. It's not just what

01:35:40.239 --> 01:35:42.520
was your childhood like? Well, you know, one

01:35:42.520 --> 01:35:44.579
of your parents left or they were alcoholics

01:35:44.579 --> 01:35:46.039
or whatever, right? What was their childhood

01:35:46.039 --> 01:35:48.779
like? What was their childhood like? And if you

01:35:48.779 --> 01:35:51.439
go back, I mean, you think about the fallacy

01:35:51.439 --> 01:35:53.260
that was told about World War II, that these

01:35:53.260 --> 01:35:55.319
men and women just went overseas, you know, fought

01:35:55.319 --> 01:35:58.439
in trenches, saw horrors, you know, liberated

01:35:58.439 --> 01:36:01.310
death camps. And then just came back and rolled

01:36:01.310 --> 01:36:03.909
up their sleeves and were good to go. And then

01:36:03.909 --> 01:36:06.250
that's bullshit. You listen to these people and

01:36:06.250 --> 01:36:08.609
granddad was an absolute mess and he slapped

01:36:08.609 --> 01:36:10.850
around grandma and he was an alcoholic. Not always.

01:36:10.909 --> 01:36:12.310
I mean, there were some people that absolutely

01:36:12.310 --> 01:36:16.029
function, but you had that same spectrum back

01:36:16.029 --> 01:36:19.949
then too, you know, war is hell. So having that

01:36:19.949 --> 01:36:23.310
compassion and empathy and starting to look back

01:36:23.310 --> 01:36:24.989
and like you said, forgive yourself, whatever

01:36:24.989 --> 01:36:28.479
your upbringing was. But then realize now as

01:36:28.479 --> 01:36:31.140
you are listening, as a parent, as a grandparent,

01:36:31.260 --> 01:36:34.140
whatever you are, that you have the ability to

01:36:34.140 --> 01:36:36.680
do the work on yourself and stop passing that

01:36:36.680 --> 01:36:38.760
trauma to the next generation. I think that's

01:36:38.760 --> 01:36:41.579
a big part of this overall kindness equation.

01:36:43.039 --> 01:36:45.479
I think it's got to be. And this is true within

01:36:45.479 --> 01:36:47.399
your family, but it's true with your neighbors,

01:36:47.560 --> 01:36:49.960
too. You know, if you're a little bit curious

01:36:49.960 --> 01:36:51.600
and you wonder, like, why did that person just

01:36:51.600 --> 01:36:54.659
get so fired up about that one thing? It's probably

01:36:54.659 --> 01:36:56.539
not just because they were born an asshole. There's

01:36:56.539 --> 01:36:58.300
there's something there. You know, there's a

01:36:58.300 --> 01:37:00.020
limit to what you put up with other people's

01:37:00.020 --> 01:37:02.659
bullshit. And I get that. But I mean, just just

01:37:02.659 --> 01:37:04.960
the posture itself of saying, like, people are

01:37:04.960 --> 01:37:06.300
probably trying to do their best and they're

01:37:06.300 --> 01:37:10.220
probably not trying to harm you. Try to understand

01:37:10.220 --> 01:37:12.359
maybe where they're coming from, I think, goes

01:37:12.359 --> 01:37:14.100
a long, long way. And again, starts with yourself

01:37:14.100 --> 01:37:17.579
and your partner and your kids. And it's tough.

01:37:17.680 --> 01:37:20.170
I mean, I think about a lot the fact that. I

01:37:20.170 --> 01:37:22.170
grew up with a pretty solid childhood, and then

01:37:22.170 --> 01:37:24.409
I think about my two sons from my first marriage

01:37:24.409 --> 01:37:27.789
who were growing up with divorced parents. We've

01:37:27.789 --> 01:37:29.289
done our best by them, and I certainly think

01:37:29.289 --> 01:37:31.789
I'm a good dad, but it really pains me. I lose

01:37:31.789 --> 01:37:35.770
a lot of sleep at night. Are my kids going to

01:37:35.770 --> 01:37:37.670
fare as well as I did when they run up against

01:37:37.670 --> 01:37:41.189
life's big challenges because they had a divorce,

01:37:41.390 --> 01:37:43.569
which we know even if you're trying to do your

01:37:43.569 --> 01:37:46.350
best in a divorce, it harms kids. It's hard on

01:37:46.350 --> 01:37:50.840
kids. You know, again, I try to sleep at night.

01:37:50.880 --> 01:37:52.720
I generally sleep pretty good. But, you know,

01:37:52.720 --> 01:37:55.199
these are things that I think we should be concerned

01:37:55.199 --> 01:37:58.199
about. Yeah, absolutely. I'm the same. My son

01:37:58.199 --> 01:38:01.779
was three when we got divorced. And again, I

01:38:01.779 --> 01:38:04.060
bent over backwards to be the best father I could

01:38:04.060 --> 01:38:06.119
be. But it doesn't change the fact that he had

01:38:06.119 --> 01:38:08.460
to live in two houses simultaneously and bounce

01:38:08.460 --> 01:38:12.479
back and forth and, you know, see. When relationships

01:38:12.479 --> 01:38:15.100
didn't go well, you know, with the new partners

01:38:15.100 --> 01:38:16.960
in the households and deal with that. I mean,

01:38:17.000 --> 01:38:19.420
it's there's so much. And so, yeah, I mean, the

01:38:19.420 --> 01:38:21.880
guilt and shame that you could put on yourself

01:38:21.880 --> 01:38:24.939
is horrendous. But, you know, there are also

01:38:24.939 --> 01:38:26.760
some things that are out of your control and

01:38:26.760 --> 01:38:29.119
the situation is just dictated that way. And

01:38:29.119 --> 01:38:31.380
so now you've got to kind of reassess and go,

01:38:31.439 --> 01:38:33.359
all right, well, how can we mitigate that and

01:38:33.359 --> 01:38:35.840
make this the best experience? And again, hopefully

01:38:35.840 --> 01:38:39.949
turn some of his struggles into strength. as

01:38:39.949 --> 01:38:44.770
he progresses into adulthood yeah yeah but it's

01:38:44.770 --> 01:38:48.930
hard yeah that's so it's the hardest thing i've

01:38:48.930 --> 01:38:51.770
ever done by a long shot i mean i've done some

01:38:51.770 --> 01:38:53.590
really hard stuff you know and i've been good

01:38:53.590 --> 01:38:55.989
at some things that were pretty hard and i being

01:38:55.989 --> 01:38:58.250
a parent is just that being a divorce parent

01:38:58.250 --> 01:39:02.770
is head and shoulders 10x the hardest thing i've

01:39:02.770 --> 01:39:06.279
ever done yeah absolutely Well, I want to get

01:39:06.279 --> 01:39:09.439
to what you're doing now. So talk to me about,

01:39:09.560 --> 01:39:11.840
you mentioned about the medical company, when

01:39:11.840 --> 01:39:14.180
you and Brandon met, and then let's walk through

01:39:14.180 --> 01:39:19.340
to the leadership and the book. Sure. Yeah. So

01:39:19.340 --> 01:39:22.279
the brief history is I got pulled out of that

01:39:22.279 --> 01:39:24.600
healthcare sales job by a friend of mine named

01:39:24.600 --> 01:39:27.220
Mike, who I'd worked with in third group, who

01:39:27.220 --> 01:39:28.720
started this organization right here, if you're

01:39:28.720 --> 01:39:31.220
on the screen, Team RWB, which is a veteran serving

01:39:31.220 --> 01:39:35.079
nonprofit. And I got asked to quit my job and

01:39:35.079 --> 01:39:37.220
be the first employee, the first executive director

01:39:37.220 --> 01:39:39.880
of that organization. So I leapt at the opportunity.

01:39:39.939 --> 01:39:41.300
It was right when I was getting divorced. I just

01:39:41.300 --> 01:39:42.779
kind of said, heck, let's just start fresh here.

01:39:43.659 --> 01:39:46.720
And so I went off and became a nonprofit leader

01:39:46.720 --> 01:39:48.779
for five years. And that brought me a tremendous

01:39:48.779 --> 01:39:54.260
amount of purpose. You know, I was building this

01:39:54.260 --> 01:39:56.840
kind of nonprofit startup. So I was very engaged

01:39:56.840 --> 01:39:58.539
at work. I was very engaged in the work we were

01:39:58.539 --> 01:40:00.319
doing. I cared greatly about serving veterans

01:40:00.319 --> 01:40:02.380
and their families. And it kind of gave me a

01:40:02.380 --> 01:40:04.140
new lease on life. You know, I got to do something

01:40:04.140 --> 01:40:05.880
that was hard and purposeful. And I got to work

01:40:05.880 --> 01:40:07.800
with some people I really loved and kind of bring

01:40:07.800 --> 01:40:10.199
them onto the team, including Brandon. Pulled

01:40:10.199 --> 01:40:12.319
him over from healthcare sales into the nonprofit

01:40:12.319 --> 01:40:15.899
world as well. I'm not sure if he would thank

01:40:15.899 --> 01:40:17.800
me or curse me for that. Probably a little bit

01:40:17.800 --> 01:40:19.720
of both. I think he thanked you, but he did underline

01:40:19.720 --> 01:40:23.760
it was quite a pay cut. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So

01:40:23.760 --> 01:40:27.140
that was a tremendous five years, you know, that

01:40:27.140 --> 01:40:29.930
put me back. in the saddle. So professionally

01:40:29.930 --> 01:40:32.109
and personally, it was huge. I met a lot of amazing

01:40:32.109 --> 01:40:35.369
people and did a lot of cool stuff. And I learned

01:40:35.369 --> 01:40:38.109
a ton about business and growth and leadership

01:40:38.109 --> 01:40:42.630
in that role. I got to go to the White House

01:40:42.630 --> 01:40:46.529
and do all kinds of cool stuff. And then I left

01:40:46.529 --> 01:40:48.930
to go be the president of GORUCK, which you may

01:40:48.930 --> 01:40:52.409
know, they're in Jacksonville, which was an awesome,

01:40:52.489 --> 01:40:55.430
awesome, awesome opportunity as well. And I love

01:40:55.430 --> 01:40:59.090
GORUCK and continue to. have a million rucksacks

01:40:59.090 --> 01:41:00.829
at my house, several million dollars worth of

01:41:00.829 --> 01:41:05.649
rucksacks at this point. So that was really important

01:41:05.649 --> 01:41:08.050
to me. And it really gave me this appreciation

01:41:08.050 --> 01:41:11.350
of leadership in the world outside of the military.

01:41:11.750 --> 01:41:15.750
So at that point, I had the chance to be a military

01:41:15.750 --> 01:41:17.590
leader in the special operations community and

01:41:17.590 --> 01:41:18.970
had been through West Point. So I kind of knew

01:41:18.970 --> 01:41:21.810
what that looked like. I had to repurpose my

01:41:21.810 --> 01:41:24.069
skills and my perspective quite a lot in the

01:41:24.069 --> 01:41:26.600
corporate environment. I think was able to do

01:41:26.600 --> 01:41:28.939
that well and be successful there. Then into

01:41:28.939 --> 01:41:31.039
the nonprofit environment, which was different

01:41:31.039 --> 01:41:33.720
yet again. And so you start to see the common

01:41:33.720 --> 01:41:36.000
threads and what really is foundational to leadership,

01:41:36.039 --> 01:41:38.699
but also what's unique to certain circumstances.

01:41:38.819 --> 01:41:41.000
My interpersonal skills, I think we're getting

01:41:41.000 --> 01:41:43.720
very strong at that point in terms of understanding

01:41:43.720 --> 01:41:46.000
how to communicate effectively with people in

01:41:46.000 --> 01:41:49.199
a distributed environment and different types

01:41:49.199 --> 01:41:53.359
of people and that kind of thing. And what I

01:41:53.359 --> 01:41:56.720
came to realize was number one, Most of life's

01:41:56.720 --> 01:41:59.079
big challenges are really leadership challenges.

01:41:59.180 --> 01:42:00.680
Most of the big problems we're facing are leadership

01:42:00.680 --> 01:42:02.859
challenges. Hunger is not a food problem. It's

01:42:02.859 --> 01:42:05.180
a leadership problem, right? Climate's not a

01:42:05.180 --> 01:42:07.960
science problem. It's a leadership problem. Largely,

01:42:07.960 --> 01:42:10.300
we know what to do in life. Most of us know what

01:42:10.300 --> 01:42:13.020
the right thing to do is most of the time. It's

01:42:13.020 --> 01:42:17.979
just whether or not we have the fortitude to

01:42:17.979 --> 01:42:19.899
do it, whether that's on a personal level when

01:42:19.899 --> 01:42:21.539
it comes to discipline or whether it's on a collective

01:42:21.539 --> 01:42:24.810
level, which requires leadership. I got really

01:42:24.810 --> 01:42:26.470
excited about the potential of having a leadership

01:42:26.470 --> 01:42:28.609
development company and going around and teaching

01:42:28.609 --> 01:42:30.109
people about leadership because I thought that

01:42:30.109 --> 01:42:32.770
was kind of the linchpin to everything. As you

01:42:32.770 --> 01:42:34.829
maybe know, it's not that easy. I mean, there's

01:42:34.829 --> 01:42:36.590
a zillion people on the planet that think they're

01:42:36.590 --> 01:42:40.489
leadership experts. There's a limitless menu

01:42:40.489 --> 01:42:42.810
of options for keynote speakers or workshops

01:42:42.810 --> 01:42:45.449
and that kind of thing. And so I wasn't really

01:42:45.449 --> 01:42:46.890
quite sure how I was going to go about it. And

01:42:46.890 --> 01:42:49.310
I was doing some consulting on my own for a couple

01:42:49.310 --> 01:42:52.039
of years and it was going okay. But then Brandon

01:42:52.039 --> 01:42:56.039
and I had a conversation in late 2019, and we

01:42:56.039 --> 01:42:58.659
kind of decided that it may be worth exploring

01:42:58.659 --> 01:43:01.560
what building a real company could look like,

01:43:01.560 --> 01:43:03.739
what building an actual brand that we were proud

01:43:03.739 --> 01:43:07.359
of that we could lean on and do together would

01:43:07.359 --> 01:43:08.960
look like. Because I was tired of kind of doing

01:43:08.960 --> 01:43:10.500
it on my own. I was getting a little bit lonely

01:43:10.500 --> 01:43:15.039
and a little bit sort of bored with, you know,

01:43:15.060 --> 01:43:18.489
doing that. And so in early 2020, we started

01:43:18.489 --> 01:43:20.310
Applied Leadership Partners. We had a good idea

01:43:20.310 --> 01:43:21.529
of what we were going to do. We had a little

01:43:21.529 --> 01:43:23.810
bit of momentum from some of Brandon's work and

01:43:23.810 --> 01:43:26.210
the work I'd been doing in consulting. And then

01:43:26.210 --> 01:43:27.930
three days after we launched our website, the

01:43:27.930 --> 01:43:30.609
world shut down for COVID. And we thought maybe

01:43:30.609 --> 01:43:34.329
it was dead in the water out of the gates. And

01:43:34.329 --> 01:43:37.829
we were both very lucky in that I still had some

01:43:37.829 --> 01:43:40.390
consulting work. Brandon had just started grad

01:43:40.390 --> 01:43:43.130
school, so he was making some basic housing allowance

01:43:43.130 --> 01:43:46.699
through the GI Bill. My wife was in the Intel

01:43:46.699 --> 01:43:48.600
community at SOCOM, so she still had a steady

01:43:48.600 --> 01:43:51.420
paycheck. Brandon's wife was an ER nurse. And

01:43:51.420 --> 01:43:53.140
so we had some things working in our favor. We

01:43:53.140 --> 01:43:55.000
were able to still sort of pay the mortgage and

01:43:55.000 --> 01:43:58.760
give this thing some time to marinate. And we

01:43:58.760 --> 01:44:01.140
just started reaching out to people and saying,

01:44:01.180 --> 01:44:03.539
hey, how can we help you? Even if it's for no

01:44:03.539 --> 01:44:06.859
money, we see people struggling throughout kind

01:44:06.859 --> 01:44:09.279
of the COVID crisis as leaders in their businesses.

01:44:10.079 --> 01:44:11.500
A lot of hard decisions had to be made. There

01:44:11.500 --> 01:44:13.380
was an incredible amount of uncertainty in the

01:44:13.380 --> 01:44:17.140
world. And we could sort of see that that's what

01:44:17.140 --> 01:44:19.779
was really crushing people. There were some very

01:44:19.779 --> 01:44:21.579
practical, real things that were harming people

01:44:21.579 --> 01:44:24.000
during COVID. And I want to be clear, like people

01:44:24.000 --> 01:44:25.260
were getting sick and people were losing their

01:44:25.260 --> 01:44:28.159
businesses and bad things were happening. But

01:44:28.159 --> 01:44:30.680
a lot of what we saw was people were just losing

01:44:30.680 --> 01:44:33.000
their minds because there was so much uncertainty

01:44:33.000 --> 01:44:35.479
about what was going on and what was true and

01:44:35.479 --> 01:44:38.770
when things were going to change. That lack of

01:44:38.770 --> 01:44:41.869
control and that lack of certainty was really

01:44:41.869 --> 01:44:44.210
harming people. And so we thought, hey, how can

01:44:44.210 --> 01:44:46.909
we speak into this in a way that's going to be

01:44:46.909 --> 01:44:50.390
comforting and useful to people? And so we came

01:44:50.390 --> 01:44:53.529
up with this idea of there's a distinct difference

01:44:53.529 --> 01:44:55.590
between perseverance and endurance. And what

01:44:55.590 --> 01:44:57.970
we're seeing is a lot of really hard, strong,

01:44:58.149 --> 01:45:02.210
smart people trying to endure beyond the extent

01:45:02.210 --> 01:45:05.050
of their endurance. And it's not working. And

01:45:05.050 --> 01:45:06.670
so what would the conversation look like if we

01:45:06.670 --> 01:45:08.989
said there's another way? What if you could understand

01:45:08.989 --> 01:45:11.949
what's happening right now in real terms? You

01:45:11.949 --> 01:45:13.869
could see it and recognize it in yourself and

01:45:13.869 --> 01:45:15.390
within your team, and we could give you a little

01:45:15.390 --> 01:45:20.850
bit of a path toward growth and adapting and

01:45:20.850 --> 01:45:22.869
becoming that will allow you to maybe not be

01:45:22.869 --> 01:45:25.170
the same as you are now, but maybe be better,

01:45:25.250 --> 01:45:27.729
at least better equipped for what the world's

01:45:27.729 --> 01:45:30.010
asking of you right now. And that seemed to be

01:45:30.010 --> 01:45:32.770
a very refreshing and hopeful message for people.

01:45:33.130 --> 01:45:35.369
And so we've done a ton of work over the last

01:45:35.369 --> 01:45:38.619
five years. teaching teams, everything about

01:45:38.619 --> 01:45:42.060
from empowerment and accountability and ownership

01:45:42.060 --> 01:45:44.739
and difficult conversations. So we talk about

01:45:44.739 --> 01:45:47.840
a lot of kind of garden variety, meat and potatoes,

01:45:48.100 --> 01:45:51.960
leadership stuff. But one of the things that

01:45:51.960 --> 01:45:54.180
we lean on over and over again, it's the reason

01:45:54.180 --> 01:45:57.439
why we wrote the book, is that when a team and

01:45:57.439 --> 01:46:02.239
when a leader can recognize themselves on life's

01:46:02.239 --> 01:46:05.260
great ridgeline and they can accept where they're

01:46:05.260 --> 01:46:07.760
at. and they can realize that it's not necessarily

01:46:07.760 --> 01:46:10.340
unique or special or impossible it's just hard

01:46:10.340 --> 01:46:15.159
and they may have to grow they may have to change

01:46:15.159 --> 01:46:17.960
they may have to adapt in order to move through

01:46:17.960 --> 01:46:21.319
what they're up against people can do that and

01:46:21.319 --> 01:46:23.720
uh it's been received really well so far it's

01:46:23.720 --> 01:46:25.319
been a fun message to share because we think

01:46:25.319 --> 01:46:27.460
it's true uh it's good to see that's helping

01:46:27.460 --> 01:46:30.539
people Talk to me about the difference between

01:46:30.539 --> 01:46:33.319
perseverance and endurance. I know I think that

01:46:33.319 --> 01:46:36.119
was the marathon runner example that Brandon

01:46:36.119 --> 01:46:38.140
gave. But I mean, you know, people will be like,

01:46:38.180 --> 01:46:40.060
oh, you know, you just kind of suffer through

01:46:40.060 --> 01:46:42.020
and you become tougher. That is that is growth.

01:46:42.180 --> 01:46:44.479
But there's a there's a difference that you articulate

01:46:44.479 --> 01:46:48.779
really well in the book. Sure. Yeah, I mean,

01:46:48.819 --> 01:46:51.399
I think that I think Brandon probably would have

01:46:51.399 --> 01:46:53.479
described it, you know, the person that you are

01:46:53.479 --> 01:46:56.760
at point B. when you're enduring is just an exhausted

01:46:56.760 --> 01:46:59.239
version of the person you were at point a and

01:46:59.239 --> 01:47:01.220
sometimes we need that sometimes it's just time

01:47:01.220 --> 01:47:02.739
to put your shoulder to the wheel and get get

01:47:02.739 --> 01:47:06.500
shit done um but through perseverance you know

01:47:06.500 --> 01:47:08.420
you have to change as i said and the person you

01:47:08.420 --> 01:47:11.399
are at point b is actually a different person

01:47:11.399 --> 01:47:15.859
and that's because there are some significant

01:47:15.859 --> 01:47:19.220
differences in going through real adversity over

01:47:19.220 --> 01:47:22.300
the long timeline of your life or career. And,

01:47:22.300 --> 01:47:24.340
you know, we think of those things as being uncertainty

01:47:24.340 --> 01:47:28.020
or change uncertainty than acceptance choice

01:47:28.020 --> 01:47:30.800
and growth. And so, you know, when you're doing

01:47:30.800 --> 01:47:33.060
something that's hard and you know, it's hard,

01:47:33.180 --> 01:47:36.060
you can suck it up and do it. And a lot of us,

01:47:36.079 --> 01:47:37.539
a lot of people listening right now are good

01:47:37.539 --> 01:47:40.000
at doing hard things. And the problem is when

01:47:40.000 --> 01:47:41.340
we're good at doing hard things, we just keep

01:47:41.340 --> 01:47:43.260
seeking out hard things to do. We think that.

01:47:43.770 --> 01:47:45.250
You know, what we want in life is just on the

01:47:45.250 --> 01:47:47.890
other side of the next hard thing. But that might

01:47:47.890 --> 01:47:50.229
not be true at all. You know, what you really

01:47:50.229 --> 01:47:53.289
want most out of life or what you need is to

01:47:53.289 --> 01:47:57.689
take that path of becoming, to embrace the fact

01:47:57.689 --> 01:47:59.470
that the world is uncertain and you can't control

01:47:59.470 --> 01:48:03.869
everything, right? To accept your circumstances

01:48:03.869 --> 01:48:05.970
for what they are, not for what you wish they

01:48:05.970 --> 01:48:08.989
were, what they used to be, and to really embrace

01:48:08.989 --> 01:48:10.989
that and to kind of surrender the things you

01:48:10.989 --> 01:48:13.779
can't control. totally take ownership of the

01:48:13.779 --> 01:48:17.039
things that you can. And then the biggest thing

01:48:17.039 --> 01:48:21.420
is the choice. Even if you understand where you're

01:48:21.420 --> 01:48:22.699
at and you totally accept that.