WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran

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-owned and operated performance optimization

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company that I introduced recently as a sponsor

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on this show. Well, since then I have actually

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founder, Ernie Colling. or go to transcendcompany

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.com. This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr,

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yet another company that's doing great things

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for the first responder community. As a strength

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features. And if you want to take a deeper dive

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into Team Builder, listen to episode 1032 with

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Melissa Mercado or go to teambuildr .com. And

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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you

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think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome

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to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,

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my name is James Gearing and this week it is

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my absolute honor to welcome on the show Matt

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and Tawny Browning. Now Matt spent a full career

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in law enforcement in Arizona, a majority of

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which was spent undercover infiltrating the white

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supremacist gangs. What is more impressive is

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that his wife Tawny, not employed to do this

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at all, more often than not was also involved

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in these undercover operations. On top of that,

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Tawney was one of the production members behind

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Escaping Polygamy, exposing religious extremism.

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So as you can imagine, we discuss a host of topics,

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from Matt's journey into law enforcement, their

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relationship dynamic, environmental factors that

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bolster white supremacy, some powerful rehabilitation

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stories, and so much more. Now before we get

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to this incredible conversation, as I say every

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week, please just take a moment. go to whichever

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app you listen to this on subscribe to the show

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leave feedback and leave a rating Every single

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five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,

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therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library of well over 1 ,000

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episodes now. So all I ask in return is that

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you help share these incredible men and women's

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stories so I can get them to every single person

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on planet Earth who needs to hear them. So with

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that being said, I introduce to you... Matt and

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Tawny Browning. Enjoy. Well, Matt and Tawny,

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I want to start by saying thank you so much for

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taking the time and coming on the Behind the

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Shield podcast today. Oh, for sure. Happy to

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be here. So where on planet Earth are we finding

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you this afternoon? We are in Arizona. It actually

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is. It's nice outside today. Yeah. It's not normally

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nice outside. Well, actually, it's just really

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beautiful right now. February, March, April is

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just beautiful here. So good time to be here.

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Brilliant. When is your greenest month? I remember

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I drove through twice and went to California

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and then back to Florida. And obviously living

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in California can be very kind of brown and yellow

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a lot of the year. So when is your most beautiful

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time in Arizona? Now, March and March and April.

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There's two weeks that is green. So that makes

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it nice. Then it gets hot. No, it's just the

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flower. He doesn't know what he's talking about.

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The flowers are so beautiful right now. They

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just are stunning. And I think that's why people

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come and the blossoms are in bloom for the orange

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trees. I mean, yeah, it's actually very beautiful

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right now. But you have to look for that. You

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have to take time out and smell the roses. I

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was like, you do not have to look for it because

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it's everywhere, Matt. It's everywhere. You have

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to time it while I take it up. Yes, yes. All

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right. Well, let's start at the very beginning

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of your journey. So, Tony, let's start with you.

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Tell me where you were born and tell me a little

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bit about your family dynamic, what your parents

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did, how many siblings. I was born here in Arizona.

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So I'm a native and which was quite, I mean,

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not so much anymore, but at the time that was,

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you know, in grade school, if I could say I'm

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a native Arizona and I was pretty cool because

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there's maybe one or two of us in our, you know,

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in the entire grade. So it's kind of a big deal.

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So I'm a native Arizona and first generation

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though, my parents, you know, moved from somewhere

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else with a job and we, I have six, there's six

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of us. They had three boys and three girls. And

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I grew up in. I would say in a home of love.

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I mean, I had no idea that hate really existed.

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I mean, it wasn't a perfect family by any means.

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There's six of us. You can imagine that there

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was a lot of crazy that went on. My dad was a

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mechanical engineer. My mom was a stay -at -home

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mom who taught music. And I'm number two in that

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lineup. So there was a lot of responsibilities

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on me for raising the family. we grew up in a

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very hispanic community like it was there there

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kind of was like two two streets down from where

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we were it's almost like like um how do i say

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this like it was a barrio two streets down from

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where i lived and so and everywhere from so south

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was a barrio and north um was the white kids

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for lack of a better word and we all came together

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for grade school and i didn't know anything different

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i loved it i think it was an ideal like way to

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grow up actually i know we'll get into this especially

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when we talk about some of the gangs and and

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the stuff that you've spent your life working

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on as well what about your exposure to religion

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faith etc when you were young um very very religious

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grew up mainstream Mormon, Church of Jesus Christ

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of Latter -day Saints. So definitely grew up

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very actively in the church. And every Sunday

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and every Wednesday, we were definitely doing

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church activities. When I think about some of

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the nicest people I know, a lot of them are Mormon.

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And so I think this is what we'll get into this

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deeper. But what's really interesting is if you

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look at a lot of these, you know, religions and

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religious doctrines, you know, the center of

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it is kindness, compassion, community, love.

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And it's interesting how it gets skewed by more

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extremist groups. It definitely does. I mean,

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religion to me is beautiful. It's Christ. You

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know, at least when we're if it's taking us to

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God and Christ and all those those tenets that

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you just said, you know, it's beautiful. It has

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definitely got skewed and twisted to do man's

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work and not God's. But if you look at it, too,

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I mean, look back on what are wars fought over?

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You know, a lot of wars are fought over over

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religion and especially mean the the. the jews

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have been i mean 2 000 years now we're talking

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that they've been persecuted because of their

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religion so religion can either bring in happiness

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and joy or it can bring in destruction it depends

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on which way you want to take it in the field

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where i find myself now the ones that so many

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have decided not to leave in any kind of spirituality

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or religion you know traditional religion and

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and i can understand that because of their bad

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experiences but it seems that when i The most

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people that I've talked to, the ones that are

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atheists, are ones that have had bad religious

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experience. Well, I think when you look back

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at a lot of the violence and torture and wars

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that were under a banner of religion, I think

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more often than not, you see that as just a kind

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of facade of greed and power that's actually

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behind it. And I think, again, it's an abuse

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of a religion. It's not actually the religion

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itself. Yeah. Abused religion is horrible. It's

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we're seeing it now. You know, you got your Christian

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nationalism. You have your Christian identity.

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You have all the you know, in the name of God,

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we're we're doing this in the name of God. We're

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hurting these people on this and all white. God

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wants all white and everything else. It doesn't

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work like that. Now, I mean, even I know it's

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an unpopular conversation, but it's just true.

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If you look at what's happening in Gaza. a small

00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:00.919
portion of the Jewish community, and it's not

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an expression of the entire Jewish community,

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but certain Israelis are persecuting, you know,

00:11:05.860 --> 00:11:07.799
and killing men, women, and children now. So,

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you know, even the persecuted, if they, you know,

00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:13.600
I think that's probably, I would imagine, again,

00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:16.059
multi -generational trauma that, you know, hurt

00:11:16.059 --> 00:11:17.820
people hurt people, as they say, and if left

00:11:17.820 --> 00:11:21.379
unchecked, now they become the bully. Yeah, I

00:11:21.379 --> 00:11:24.529
call that trauma drama. I mean, all of this drama,

00:11:24.649 --> 00:11:27.490
all of this hatred, all of this ugly comes because

00:11:27.490 --> 00:11:30.850
of so much of our own trauma, even in our lives

00:11:30.850 --> 00:11:33.669
where we're not in a war infested, you know,

00:11:33.669 --> 00:11:36.169
community. You can see it. You can see things

00:11:36.169 --> 00:11:38.090
come out sideways, you know, because of maybe

00:11:38.090 --> 00:11:40.649
childhood trauma or whatever else someone's suffering

00:11:40.649 --> 00:11:44.490
from. Absolutely. Well, we get back on the chronological

00:11:44.490 --> 00:11:46.509
journey and we'll dive back into that in a bit.

00:11:47.149 --> 00:11:49.629
Tony, for you, when you were kind of school age,

00:11:49.690 --> 00:11:51.490
what were you playing and doing as far as sports?

00:11:53.139 --> 00:11:56.259
Oh, I was like so fast. I was always winning

00:11:56.259 --> 00:11:58.559
field day, but I didn't do anything like that.

00:11:58.620 --> 00:12:01.220
I was doing music. I was doing anywhere I could

00:12:01.220 --> 00:12:03.960
get my hands on anything artistic. That's what

00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:05.940
I was doing. Begging my parents to be in dance

00:12:05.940 --> 00:12:07.879
classes, things like that. And you can imagine

00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:10.179
with six kids, that wasn't always what we got

00:12:10.179 --> 00:12:12.799
to do. So, but I was still on like the gymnastics

00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:15.179
team. I guess I did that. Anything that was,

00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:17.259
I could have artistic expression. That's what

00:12:17.259 --> 00:12:20.240
I was doing. And definitely singing. I mean,

00:12:20.259 --> 00:12:25.259
that's what was my. My passion was to sing. What

00:12:25.259 --> 00:12:27.779
about career aspirations? Was your dream to actually

00:12:27.779 --> 00:12:30.100
do that as a profession or was it something else

00:12:30.100 --> 00:12:32.179
on the back burner? Sorry, James, didn't even

00:12:32.179 --> 00:12:35.000
mean to. So passionately was only going to be

00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:37.159
a country singer. That's all that mattered to

00:12:37.159 --> 00:12:39.580
me in my entire life. That's what I was going

00:12:39.580 --> 00:12:42.440
to do. And there was I never thought about family,

00:12:42.519 --> 00:12:44.960
having a family, a husband, really anything like

00:12:44.960 --> 00:12:47.840
that too much. It was about it was about singing.

00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:51.480
So lead me through that journey initially then.

00:12:51.539 --> 00:12:53.799
What was your journey like in the pursuit of

00:12:53.799 --> 00:12:56.940
country music and where did it kind of stumble

00:12:56.940 --> 00:12:59.580
or falter a little bit? James, you're asking

00:12:59.580 --> 00:13:01.620
all the questions that I've never had to really

00:13:01.620 --> 00:13:03.940
answer like this because it kind of gets glossed

00:13:03.940 --> 00:13:08.519
over. But I really great teach. Well, my mom,

00:13:08.580 --> 00:13:12.200
like I said, was a piano teacher. So and I sometimes

00:13:12.200 --> 00:13:14.759
when she would have babies, she'd get so sick

00:13:14.759 --> 00:13:18.940
that I would teach some of her piano. piano lessons

00:13:18.940 --> 00:13:21.159
while she, you know, just it kind of fell into

00:13:21.159 --> 00:13:23.379
that way. I had a sister that would spend hours

00:13:23.379 --> 00:13:25.899
with me playing the piano while I sang. So it

00:13:25.899 --> 00:13:28.720
just kind of started from very, very young. And

00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:31.440
the church offered a great opportunity for me

00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:35.600
to have that kind of warmth and encouragement

00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:38.299
to keep going. So family church, that kind of

00:13:38.299 --> 00:13:42.559
thing. Great, great. Mrs. McGinnis, great, great,

00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:47.259
you know, middle school. teachers that just kind

00:13:47.259 --> 00:13:49.139
of honed in on that and let me do it. But as

00:13:49.139 --> 00:13:53.440
I got older, 16 was, Matt and I started dating

00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:55.580
really early. Was I about 16 when you were rotating

00:13:55.580 --> 00:13:59.720
for me? Probably 16, I started doing a lot of

00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:01.659
different, you know, gigs and actually getting

00:14:01.659 --> 00:14:06.259
paid for it. And Matt just, he would come along

00:14:06.259 --> 00:14:09.919
and carry my gear for me and help. I just, he

00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:12.169
just wanted to spend time with me, right? I had

00:14:12.169 --> 00:14:16.529
a car. We just did that, you know, so that's

00:14:16.529 --> 00:14:19.049
what we did. And he, he actually had a friends

00:14:19.049 --> 00:14:21.549
that were in heavy metal bands. So, you know,

00:14:21.549 --> 00:14:24.389
he kind of opened my eyes to that and, and we

00:14:24.389 --> 00:14:27.250
just did it. And I mean, I kept working like

00:14:27.250 --> 00:14:30.629
it was good money for me. I, I just kept working.

00:14:30.809 --> 00:14:34.049
There's this Phoenix area is a very, we call

00:14:34.049 --> 00:14:36.710
it a casuals. There's lots of work for that kind

00:14:36.710 --> 00:14:39.509
of. thing here and they always wanted a female

00:14:39.509 --> 00:14:42.629
singer so I do a lot of sit -ins and just things

00:14:42.629 --> 00:14:44.809
like that and then worked with different bands

00:14:44.809 --> 00:14:48.289
it was never like my band I did just a lot of

00:14:48.289 --> 00:14:51.129
casuals I could sing everything from 1940s music

00:14:51.129 --> 00:14:53.289
to country music and whatever they'd pay me to

00:14:53.289 --> 00:14:57.009
do I'd do so we're going to go to Matt's origin

00:14:57.009 --> 00:14:59.789
story in a second but just moving forward further

00:14:59.789 --> 00:15:02.110
so now you're successful like how far did you

00:15:02.110 --> 00:15:05.419
get with that as a profession Well, I was singing

00:15:05.419 --> 00:15:08.259
jingles, um, turtle Creek mall in Hattiesburg,

00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:12.840
Mississippi. And, um, I, you know, so low level,

00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:15.240
I would say I actually opened for Alison Krauss

00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:19.399
at a mall. Um, you know, I did that and I was

00:15:19.399 --> 00:15:22.480
doing, um, I went to Nashville and they, they

00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:25.580
offered me to come was working with the, uh,

00:15:25.620 --> 00:15:30.879
this is our cat. it's our son's cat yeah it's

00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:33.799
anyway so I so I worked and I did some I did

00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:37.259
some I was on MTV I mean just little low -level

00:15:37.259 --> 00:15:40.600
things but on on my way there I had then we had

00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:44.580
two kids and um I was gone a lot I was working

00:15:44.580 --> 00:15:48.679
a lot and um you went to Nashville Matt was working

00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:52.440
a lot yeah and anyway I was offered by one of

00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:55.860
a very a voice coach actually said you know you

00:15:55.860 --> 00:15:57.240
shouldn't you should come and see what you can

00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:00.559
get started here And Matt was working at the

00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:04.299
time. And he said, yeah, go, go for six months.

00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:06.320
And when I went back to that voice coach, he

00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:09.000
said, you either all come as a family or you

00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:11.480
don't come. Because he said in his experience,

00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:15.019
what he had seen is that abstinence didn't make

00:16:15.019 --> 00:16:17.940
the heart grow fonder. It made the heart wander.

00:16:18.940 --> 00:16:22.899
So we kind of had to regroup as a family and

00:16:22.899 --> 00:16:25.440
decide if that was the way we were going to go.

00:16:25.539 --> 00:16:28.250
But you always said you drive the bus. Still

00:16:28.250 --> 00:16:30.429
will. Up to that point, he had always said that.

00:16:30.909 --> 00:16:34.649
It'll be a fast bus. Probably lifted with tires,

00:16:34.750 --> 00:16:38.169
but it'll be a bus. I think you were nervous

00:16:38.169 --> 00:16:42.269
to kind of leave. He had just started his career.

00:16:42.389 --> 00:16:44.029
And really, we could have done that, you know,

00:16:44.049 --> 00:16:46.830
law enforcement anywhere. But we decided to stay

00:16:46.830 --> 00:16:49.990
put where we had the support of family and friends

00:16:49.990 --> 00:16:52.730
and things that we knew here in the valley, the

00:16:52.730 --> 00:16:56.710
Phoenix Valley. The deeper I've got into, you

00:16:56.710 --> 00:16:59.159
know, just the whole, human conversation, but

00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:01.519
you obviously become a little bit more well -versed

00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:03.980
in emotions and mental health. And you look at

00:17:03.980 --> 00:17:06.759
some of these documentaries on the bands and

00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:09.319
of course they're living their best life when

00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:12.259
they're on stage, but it's those shots where

00:17:12.259 --> 00:17:14.619
they're on the tour bus and they're away from

00:17:14.619 --> 00:17:16.660
their family. And you can just see how, yeah,

00:17:16.700 --> 00:17:18.900
it might be great to have the money and the fame,

00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:22.220
but equally and opposite, these are human beings

00:17:22.220 --> 00:17:24.099
that are just dying to be back with their family.

00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:29.660
And I think I, that was one of, I'm being careful

00:17:29.660 --> 00:17:32.059
not to mention names necessarily, but he's one

00:17:32.059 --> 00:17:37.160
of the most profoundly inspirational people I've

00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:39.819
ever known. Not only did he help me with vocally

00:17:39.819 --> 00:17:41.819
to get things where I wanted him to go, but he

00:17:41.819 --> 00:17:43.819
helped me spiritually in ways that I'd never

00:17:43.819 --> 00:17:46.839
expected to find from a voice coach or a voice

00:17:46.839 --> 00:17:49.759
doctor. So he was right. He was definitely right.

00:17:50.140 --> 00:17:53.480
He influenced my life for good. I certainly appreciate

00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:56.799
him and think of him often for. some of his advice

00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:00.259
in that realm he he saw that we had something

00:18:00.259 --> 00:18:02.380
between us that was going to last and he wanted

00:18:02.380 --> 00:18:04.460
it he wanted to do his part in making sure that

00:18:04.460 --> 00:18:07.859
was going to happen as well beautiful yeah i

00:18:07.859 --> 00:18:10.660
think this is one of the things um my son just

00:18:10.660 --> 00:18:13.359
experienced it he he wanted to play volleyball

00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:16.240
for the high school and that we have this bizarre

00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:19.099
system in america where you get you know 30 kids

00:18:19.099 --> 00:18:20.980
on the team and then you only play 15 of them

00:18:20.980 --> 00:18:22.819
the others just sit and watch everyone play for

00:18:22.819 --> 00:18:25.250
an entire season i don't understand quite how

00:18:25.250 --> 00:18:28.950
that works just have two teams um but uh so he

00:18:28.950 --> 00:18:32.250
wants to play volleyball so he has tried out

00:18:32.250 --> 00:18:33.990
realize he's going to be riding the bench and

00:18:33.990 --> 00:18:35.470
so he's going to be like yeah i don't want to

00:18:35.470 --> 00:18:37.890
do this anymore because he wants to play volleyball

00:18:37.890 --> 00:18:40.650
so he's got other groups that he plays with three

00:18:40.650 --> 00:18:42.730
times a week that he can just show up and they'll

00:18:42.730 --> 00:18:45.089
play the game i think this is it even with the

00:18:45.089 --> 00:18:49.430
music my ex was a was an entertainer and um you

00:18:49.430 --> 00:18:51.710
know you've got certain people that really are

00:18:51.710 --> 00:18:54.710
pursuing that fame and then you've got real musicians

00:18:54.710 --> 00:18:56.910
and i think it doesn't matter if you're getting

00:18:56.910 --> 00:18:59.089
paid to do it you know if you love doing something

00:18:59.089 --> 00:19:02.069
enough then you can still carry on singing playing

00:19:02.069 --> 00:19:05.569
whatever it is that you do it come it comes out

00:19:05.569 --> 00:19:09.109
it comes out you can't keep it in but james money

00:19:09.109 --> 00:19:12.609
was nice i mean on a on a cop salary that you

00:19:12.609 --> 00:19:15.480
know that actually clothed my children and me.

00:19:15.660 --> 00:19:18.779
So I appreciated being able, really appreciated

00:19:18.779 --> 00:19:21.400
being able to make some, you know, even a little

00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:24.059
bit of a living from doing that. Absolutely.

00:19:24.259 --> 00:19:27.140
All right. Well, Matt, where were you born? Tell

00:19:27.140 --> 00:19:30.559
me about your family dynamic. How many siblings

00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:33.619
and what did your parents do? I'm born and raised

00:19:33.619 --> 00:19:37.700
in Phoenix. Okay. He's fifth generation Phoenix.

00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:40.119
So that's, I mean, if I was cool, first generation,

00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:42.819
he's fifth generation. So that's unheard of.

00:19:43.069 --> 00:19:45.849
Yeah, my grandma, she died when she's 107 and

00:19:45.849 --> 00:19:50.630
she never left Arizona. So, you know, I hope

00:19:50.630 --> 00:19:53.170
that gene passes over me. I don't think I can

00:19:53.170 --> 00:19:56.849
do 107. But anyway, so I was born and raised

00:19:56.849 --> 00:19:59.410
here. I have three sisters. I have two older

00:19:59.410 --> 00:20:04.809
than me, then one younger. Dad worked as an engineer

00:20:04.809 --> 00:20:08.029
for different companies. Mom was a stay -at -home

00:20:08.029 --> 00:20:11.730
mom. Before the kids came around, what was her

00:20:11.730 --> 00:20:15.579
degree in? she's like some she's pretty cool

00:20:15.579 --> 00:20:17.900
she's like some chemist or yeah she's pretty

00:20:17.900 --> 00:20:20.680
cool before her time really getting she's 92

00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:24.039
now she's a like a half a generation older than

00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:27.200
my parents and she did like gen geneticist stuff

00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:29.839
yeah she's pretty cool and matt's grandma also

00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:32.599
got her degree yeah so he comes you know these

00:20:32.599 --> 00:20:35.920
are pretty sharp women the uh the education gene

00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:38.200
kind of skipped over me for a little bit and

00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:41.380
then i kind of got back in school but um Yeah,

00:20:41.420 --> 00:20:44.720
so that's me. Just grew up in Phoenix. Love doing

00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:47.900
things outdoors, working on cars, driving fast,

00:20:48.220 --> 00:20:52.539
playing softball. In high school, I played football.

00:20:53.380 --> 00:20:58.220
And that was me. It's funny how many times you

00:20:58.220 --> 00:21:00.220
hear of people well in their hundreds. My grandmother

00:21:00.220 --> 00:21:03.059
passed away, I think just over a year ago now.

00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:07.259
She was 104, almost 105. And then we just lost,

00:21:07.259 --> 00:21:10.079
I think, the last. auschwitz survivor if i'm

00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:14.500
not mistaken and she was 113 yes and so you look

00:21:14.500 --> 00:21:16.859
at the way that we are told in america on our

00:21:16.859 --> 00:21:19.839
screens that it's normal at 40 to be on you know

00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:22.940
statins and blood thinners and hypertension meds

00:21:22.940 --> 00:21:24.960
and then you look at the lifespan of some of

00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:27.500
these humans and like wait a second we can live

00:21:27.500 --> 00:21:29.599
quite a long time if we actually take care of

00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:32.220
ourselves you're saying that the the topped out

00:21:32.220 --> 00:21:36.329
age in the u .s is 78 78 years old in four months,

00:21:36.390 --> 00:21:38.809
something like that, while other places in the

00:21:38.809 --> 00:21:40.990
world is so much more. So, yeah, there's so much

00:21:40.990 --> 00:21:44.410
we can do for ourselves to, you know, but it's

00:21:44.410 --> 00:21:45.890
just a matter of doing it. It's just like everything

00:21:45.890 --> 00:21:48.130
else. You have to have that drive. You have to

00:21:48.130 --> 00:21:52.029
have that desire to do it. So, you know, but

00:21:52.029 --> 00:21:54.490
then it gets into mental health and everything

00:21:54.490 --> 00:21:58.470
else. But, yeah, I grew up here, and Tani, the

00:21:58.470 --> 00:22:02.390
first time I saw Tani was I was playing softball,

00:22:02.450 --> 00:22:04.819
and she came walking in. with the Mickey Mouse

00:22:04.819 --> 00:22:09.460
shirt on. And that was it for me. I was hooked.

00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:13.099
So I had to convince her of it. We were in our

00:22:13.099 --> 00:22:15.359
teens. I mean, it's like something that we just,

00:22:15.460 --> 00:22:19.420
yeah. Yeah. And then I started, like she said,

00:22:19.460 --> 00:22:23.940
my friends had a band, you know, it's the 80s.

00:22:23.940 --> 00:22:26.400
So they're, you know, hair metal and everything

00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:31.789
else. I did some roadie stuff for them. So why

00:22:31.789 --> 00:22:34.109
not? I'll do Tawny's stuff too. Yeah, our late

00:22:34.109 --> 00:22:37.849
80s. But he took me into like bars that, mom,

00:22:37.970 --> 00:22:39.349
sorry, you're not supposed to know this, that

00:22:39.349 --> 00:22:41.130
I should never have been allowed to get into.

00:22:41.210 --> 00:22:43.269
Something called the Mason Jar for anybody in

00:22:43.269 --> 00:22:45.410
Phoenix. Oh, the jar. The jar was awesome because

00:22:45.410 --> 00:22:47.950
you'd have Kiss play in town and then they go

00:22:47.950 --> 00:22:50.509
to the jar and play a couple sets, you know,

00:22:50.509 --> 00:22:54.430
in front of 40 people. And, you know, it was

00:22:54.430 --> 00:22:56.210
just a good time. The Mason Jar was a good time.

00:22:56.619 --> 00:22:59.920
Really seedy, really crazy for a girl in her

00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:01.680
teens. Never should have been in there, but it

00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:04.799
was definitely an education. They let her stay.

00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:08.940
I'd get kicked out. Did you have the 80s hair

00:23:08.940 --> 00:23:13.940
back then? Of course. I had the mullet up. When

00:23:13.940 --> 00:23:15.819
I started working undercover, I had the mullet.

00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:21.259
I had long hair. It was funny. Our neighbor across

00:23:21.259 --> 00:23:24.140
the street, she cut hair, and so I just wanted

00:23:24.140 --> 00:23:27.009
the sides trimmed up. And I had in a ponytail

00:23:27.009 --> 00:23:29.009
and Tanya and I walked over to her house. She

00:23:29.009 --> 00:23:31.630
had time to cut the sides real quick. And I saw

00:23:31.630 --> 00:23:33.690
Tanya gave her the nod and it's like, what was

00:23:33.690 --> 00:23:35.589
that about? And then my ponytails on the ground.

00:23:36.690 --> 00:23:39.890
So it's like, okay. It was really bad. It's really

00:23:39.890 --> 00:23:43.190
bad. And very out. Permed and frosted. He was

00:23:43.190 --> 00:23:45.849
supposed to represent our family. And I could

00:23:45.849 --> 00:23:50.079
not think that any. bad dirt bag, whatever he

00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:52.440
was working, whatever word he used, you know,

00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:55.240
human being would, that was involved in that

00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:59.319
kind of nefarious activity would ever think that

00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:04.640
he was legit. White trash. That's what I was

00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:07.200
looking like. I look like garbage. Yeah, but

00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:09.859
she cleaned me up just like she always does.

00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:13.460
Well, going back to your early life, we talked

00:24:13.460 --> 00:24:15.140
about playing football as far as sports. What

00:24:15.140 --> 00:24:17.180
about career aspirations? Were you thinking of

00:24:17.180 --> 00:24:20.539
law enforcement back then? Well, when I graduated

00:24:20.539 --> 00:24:24.799
high school, my dad got me a job at the local

00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:27.700
service station where they pump gas and work

00:24:27.700 --> 00:24:30.920
on cars at the same place. And I started as a

00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:35.259
mechanic. And so I was working on cars. And I

00:24:35.259 --> 00:24:38.099
was loving that. But my goal in life, what I

00:24:38.099 --> 00:24:40.809
wanted to be, was either a forest ranger. or

00:24:40.809 --> 00:24:45.089
a police officer. And so I, you know, didn't

00:24:45.089 --> 00:24:48.349
really care to go up to Northern Arizona and

00:24:48.349 --> 00:24:51.670
go to college for four years to become a, you

00:24:51.670 --> 00:24:53.670
know, work for Bureau of Land Management or something.

00:24:53.750 --> 00:24:57.490
So I became a police officer. When you reflect

00:24:57.490 --> 00:24:59.589
back, because we're going to talk about a lot

00:24:59.589 --> 00:25:01.710
of individuals that have had trauma in their

00:25:01.710 --> 00:25:05.970
past. A lot of us in uniform have an ACEs, adverse

00:25:05.970 --> 00:25:08.549
childhood experience score that goes from zero

00:25:08.549 --> 00:25:10.950
to 10, if I'm not mistaken. A lot of us actually

00:25:10.950 --> 00:25:13.990
have a six and apparently incarcerated population,

00:25:14.329 --> 00:25:16.529
their average is six as well. And I think this

00:25:16.529 --> 00:25:19.549
is one of the missed elements of the first responder

00:25:19.549 --> 00:25:22.029
mental health conversation. When you reflect

00:25:22.029 --> 00:25:24.170
back now, were there any elements of your upbringing

00:25:24.170 --> 00:25:26.930
you think that were kind of contributing to some

00:25:26.930 --> 00:25:30.930
struggles later in life? Oh, I was tired of getting

00:25:30.930 --> 00:25:34.710
my ass kicked. You know, I wasn't a fighter.

00:25:34.809 --> 00:25:37.630
I was little. You know, during grade school,

00:25:37.710 --> 00:25:39.470
I was always getting picked on and bullied and

00:25:39.470 --> 00:25:41.809
things like that. And so, you know, that drove

00:25:41.809 --> 00:25:45.150
me to being, you know what, I'm done with this.

00:25:45.829 --> 00:25:48.369
And so I wanted to, and that's what I'm finding

00:25:48.369 --> 00:25:50.430
now, what Tani and I are really involved in is

00:25:50.430 --> 00:25:53.490
helping kids and helping, you know, don't mess

00:25:53.490 --> 00:25:56.049
with kids. Because I was one of those kids that

00:25:56.049 --> 00:25:58.690
was messed with. And so I think the whole bullying

00:25:58.690 --> 00:26:02.829
aspect, yeah, 100%. Absolutely. Well, walk me

00:26:02.829 --> 00:26:04.670
through your journey into law enforcement then.

00:26:04.710 --> 00:26:06.650
Which department and then kind of what was your

00:26:06.650 --> 00:26:12.289
on -ramp experience like? Well, first, I mean,

00:26:12.349 --> 00:26:14.630
I told Tony on our honeymoon that I wanted to

00:26:14.630 --> 00:26:17.769
be a cop. You told me before we got married.

00:26:18.029 --> 00:26:19.250
That I was going to be a lawyer. Oh, yeah, that's

00:26:19.250 --> 00:26:21.450
right. He told me before that he was going to

00:26:21.450 --> 00:26:24.230
be a lawyer. Which is in criminal justice to

00:26:24.230 --> 00:26:28.109
an extent. A street lawyer. I did not love police

00:26:28.109 --> 00:26:31.130
officers. I had not had great... I thought they

00:26:31.130 --> 00:26:33.450
were jerks. I hadn't had a lot of really great

00:26:33.450 --> 00:26:37.750
experiences with them. And, you know, as I said,

00:26:37.789 --> 00:26:40.930
I was so close to the Hispanic community, I wasn't

00:26:40.930 --> 00:26:43.930
really impressed with how they were treated in

00:26:43.930 --> 00:26:47.589
my presence. So I just wasn't really keen on

00:26:47.589 --> 00:26:52.009
that. But so he told me on our honeymoon. Yeah.

00:26:53.010 --> 00:26:55.849
And she, you know, as long as you don't buy drugs.

00:26:56.009 --> 00:26:57.529
That's not what I said. As long as you know.

00:26:57.569 --> 00:26:59.710
I said it's not too late to get this whole thing

00:26:59.710 --> 00:27:03.230
an old because I did not. I was I was adamantly

00:27:03.230 --> 00:27:05.730
against this. I was going to skip over that part.

00:27:07.069 --> 00:27:09.490
Well, it was six months later. Well, I when I

00:27:09.490 --> 00:27:11.849
figured out, you know, you he was going to support

00:27:11.849 --> 00:27:14.509
our family. I mean, we had already decided that

00:27:14.509 --> 00:27:17.329
when we had children that we wanted them to be.

00:27:17.390 --> 00:27:19.930
We wanted to raise them as much as we could.

00:27:20.049 --> 00:27:23.450
And I knew we had to be happy. And it was just

00:27:23.450 --> 00:27:26.329
in him. I mean, we were you could just tell it

00:27:26.329 --> 00:27:30.809
was in him. Yeah. So so I I went and I applied.

00:27:30.910 --> 00:27:34.089
I originally applied with Phoenix. And while

00:27:34.089 --> 00:27:36.809
I'm taking the written test, you know, some guys

00:27:36.809 --> 00:27:39.210
behind me were talking. Yeah, I just I made it

00:27:39.210 --> 00:27:42.170
all the way to psych. And I, you know, I'm so

00:27:42.170 --> 00:27:44.630
far in the hiring process with Mesa that, you

00:27:44.630 --> 00:27:47.309
know, they're hiring more people. And I look

00:27:47.309 --> 00:27:49.529
back to look at these guys and I thought. You

00:27:49.529 --> 00:27:51.230
know, if these guys are making it to the psych,

00:27:51.349 --> 00:27:52.950
I'm going to get hired because they're kind of

00:27:52.950 --> 00:27:57.849
wacky. And so I apply with Mesa. And once I applied,

00:27:57.930 --> 00:28:01.170
that process went quick. And, you know, and my

00:28:01.170 --> 00:28:06.430
my first my getting thrown into law enforcement

00:28:06.430 --> 00:28:09.390
in the academy is an eye opener. And I don't

00:28:09.390 --> 00:28:11.650
think I was prepared for that in my life. And

00:28:11.650 --> 00:28:14.390
so, you know, we have field problems and I kind

00:28:14.390 --> 00:28:18.420
of got screwed up in the field problems. Got

00:28:18.420 --> 00:28:21.339
kicked out of the academy, got rehired by MESA,

00:28:21.420 --> 00:28:24.980
went back to the academy, passed, graduated,

00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:31.259
and I got thrown into MESA PD. Tony, when you

00:28:31.259 --> 00:28:33.980
reflect back now, obviously knowing so many great

00:28:33.980 --> 00:28:36.720
police officers, what were the mistakes made

00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:39.099
by the ones in your community that created that

00:28:39.099 --> 00:28:41.940
lack of trust or the dislike of that profession?

00:28:44.449 --> 00:28:46.730
Oh, you're talking. It was just the way they

00:28:46.730 --> 00:28:49.309
were treating the kids. I mean, like our whole

00:28:49.309 --> 00:28:52.769
thing tends to go back to kids. It's like, you

00:28:52.769 --> 00:28:55.190
know, kids are really smart and you don't get

00:28:55.190 --> 00:28:57.490
to treat. You just don't get to treat kids like

00:28:57.490 --> 00:29:01.990
that, especially kids of color. And I just and

00:29:01.990 --> 00:29:04.150
I saw the differences with the way they would

00:29:04.150 --> 00:29:06.470
treat me. They would even my friends, my Hispanic

00:29:06.470 --> 00:29:08.730
friends would say, you go talk to them. I'm like,

00:29:08.769 --> 00:29:10.210
I don't want to talk. And it wasn't because I

00:29:10.210 --> 00:29:13.660
was an oratist or anything. It was. Honestly,

00:29:13.740 --> 00:29:16.079
it was the color of my skin. And I knew they,

00:29:16.180 --> 00:29:19.640
and we both knew it. I don't, I didn't even like

00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:21.420
to talk about it. It still makes me feel uncomfortable.

00:29:21.900 --> 00:29:24.500
So I thought those guys are jerks. If you're

00:29:24.500 --> 00:29:27.059
going to treat someone, you know, just because

00:29:27.059 --> 00:29:29.740
of, see, it's hard. See, I'm squirming a little

00:29:29.740 --> 00:29:32.180
bit because it still makes me feel so like right

00:29:32.180 --> 00:29:35.700
here in my gut, so disgusted that anyone, especially

00:29:35.700 --> 00:29:38.220
someone of an authority would be treating kids

00:29:38.220 --> 00:29:43.079
and like that. I mean, how it's just. We didn't

00:29:43.079 --> 00:29:44.940
look at each other any different. Why were they?

00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:47.740
Well, I think we I think doesn't matter who you

00:29:47.740 --> 00:29:50.779
are. You can go back in your childhood or growing

00:29:50.779 --> 00:29:54.480
up, even into your adulthood. And you can you

00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:57.279
can you first automatically you can pull out

00:29:57.279 --> 00:29:59.099
every negative experience you ever have with

00:29:59.099 --> 00:30:01.559
a police officer. Yeah, he pulled me over and

00:30:01.559 --> 00:30:03.660
he was a jerk and he was this and he was this.

00:30:04.059 --> 00:30:06.380
And that's I have those same things, too, as

00:30:06.380 --> 00:30:08.779
a police officer, as a undercover detective.

00:30:09.559 --> 00:30:11.559
I had experience with police officers. And when

00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:13.619
I left, I called my boss and said, call that

00:30:13.619 --> 00:30:16.460
agency. And I want to file a complaint on this

00:30:16.460 --> 00:30:20.119
guy. So that stuff still happens. Even it doesn't

00:30:20.119 --> 00:30:23.019
matter to anybody. But I think what we also need

00:30:23.019 --> 00:30:25.319
to understand is that you're taking the normal

00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:28.759
person and you're throwing them into extreme

00:30:28.759 --> 00:30:32.500
situations. And no way in my childhood did I

00:30:32.500 --> 00:30:35.680
ever prepare for the things that I saw, the things

00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:38.220
that I did, the things that I was involved in.

00:30:38.700 --> 00:30:41.359
And, and, and so like Tony, we were just telling

00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:44.119
our, our kids last night about a time Tony was

00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:47.059
on a ride along and is when I was a patrol sergeant.

00:30:47.079 --> 00:30:48.460
Oh my gosh. I cannot believe you're going to

00:30:48.460 --> 00:30:50.299
tell this story. I was a patrol sergeant and

00:30:50.299 --> 00:30:54.460
there was a house party and it was probably easy.

00:30:54.619 --> 00:30:57.079
400 kids were inside this house, a little house.

00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:01.019
And my guys, the guys on my squad called me up

00:31:01.019 --> 00:31:03.160
and said, Hey, we can't get this party shut down.

00:31:03.220 --> 00:31:06.880
They won't answer the door. I'm frustrated because

00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:11.650
here I am. I just left my undercover work. You

00:31:11.650 --> 00:31:14.730
know, we know how to deal with things. And this

00:31:14.730 --> 00:31:17.309
new breed of police officers coming up to where,

00:31:17.369 --> 00:31:19.190
OK, well, if you text them, they'll probably

00:31:19.190 --> 00:31:23.049
answer you type thing. I said now. So I go to

00:31:23.049 --> 00:31:25.670
show them. I remember that they kept saying,

00:31:25.829 --> 00:31:28.869
but Sarge, they're not opening the door. And

00:31:28.869 --> 00:31:32.450
it's like, OK, I'm on my way. I get there, pound

00:31:32.450 --> 00:31:35.190
on the door, tell them you got three seconds,

00:31:35.210 --> 00:31:37.470
open this door. If you do not open this door,

00:31:37.589 --> 00:31:40.049
I swear to you, I'm kicking the door in. And

00:31:40.049 --> 00:31:42.829
when I got to two, I started pounding on the

00:31:42.829 --> 00:31:44.430
door. So it sounded like I was going to kick

00:31:44.430 --> 00:31:47.109
the door in. And next thing you know, everybody

00:31:47.109 --> 00:31:49.470
goes running. 400 kids are running everywhere.

00:31:50.009 --> 00:31:52.430
It's not an exaggeration. But the thing about

00:31:52.430 --> 00:31:54.710
it is, is that Tani was there on a ride along

00:31:54.710 --> 00:31:58.849
and she was saying, you're a jerk to me. Why

00:31:58.849 --> 00:32:00.769
do you have to treat these kids? Yeah, this is

00:32:00.769 --> 00:32:02.759
my last ride along. Why do you have to treat

00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:05.220
these kids like this? Why do you have to act

00:32:05.220 --> 00:32:07.579
like this? Why do you, you know, all these whys,

00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:11.559
but it goes back to why did they put me in the

00:32:11.559 --> 00:32:15.920
situation that I have to do this? Why do I have

00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:19.259
to go to the next level? Because you won't. do

00:32:19.259 --> 00:32:21.259
the things you're supposed to do and so this

00:32:21.259 --> 00:32:23.619
is i mean shoot this has been a while now and

00:32:23.619 --> 00:32:26.660
i had kids that age i'm like oh my gosh and this

00:32:26.660 --> 00:32:28.519
is why we're telling we were telling my son this

00:32:28.519 --> 00:32:30.119
last night because he was going to get a fake

00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:32.579
id so if you go clubbing and i'm like you're

00:32:32.579 --> 00:32:35.140
going to get a jerk cop who's going to like you

00:32:35.140 --> 00:32:37.720
know throw you in jail over a fake id you don't

00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:40.299
this is what what it came up we're normal family

00:32:40.299 --> 00:32:43.940
here so um but but that's how it came up but

00:32:43.940 --> 00:32:46.440
at the time we had kids that age you know they

00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:48.279
could have easily been at that party i could

00:32:48.279 --> 00:32:50.589
have easily been at that party and why are we

00:32:50.589 --> 00:32:53.869
going to hurt the rest of their future but he

00:32:53.869 --> 00:32:56.769
was right james because the next day grandma

00:32:56.769 --> 00:32:59.150
called him and thanked him for breaking up the

00:32:59.150 --> 00:33:03.089
party we had um we stopped you know he stopped

00:33:03.089 --> 00:33:06.750
someone from as he left he was hitting cars i

00:33:06.750 --> 00:33:08.470
mean there was a lot of things that he stopped

00:33:08.470 --> 00:33:11.289
that night that i just didn't have the the wisdom

00:33:11.289 --> 00:33:14.289
to see at the time and so that's when i decided

00:33:14.289 --> 00:33:16.450
i would just stay home but i guarantee you if

00:33:16.450 --> 00:33:20.539
you go find 10 of these 400 kids, that cop was

00:33:20.539 --> 00:33:24.380
a jerk, man. He was just a jerk. Okay, sorry.

00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:29.880
It's something I talk about a lot when the conversation

00:33:29.880 --> 00:33:33.380
of policing at the moment comes up. And people

00:33:33.380 --> 00:33:35.460
say, oh, the way they're dressed, they look like

00:33:35.460 --> 00:33:37.359
they're going to war. Have you ever asked why

00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:40.420
are our streets so dangerous? Like go to Oslo,

00:33:40.500 --> 00:33:43.019
go to Reykjavik, go to Lisbon. You're not going

00:33:43.019 --> 00:33:45.480
to see, you know, gunfights in the streets or

00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:48.880
now in the UK knife fights in the street. So

00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:51.839
you can create an environment that forces law

00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:56.039
enforcement to move a certain way if left unchecked.

00:33:56.039 --> 00:33:57.119
And I think, you know, as we're going to get

00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:00.039
into again, if we don't create a community that

00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:02.180
pulls people together, that has that kind of

00:34:02.180 --> 00:34:04.779
it takes a village mentality to raise these children

00:34:04.779 --> 00:34:08.119
properly. Then you get this divisive rhetoric

00:34:08.119 --> 00:34:10.760
that you see on Fox and CNN and the left and

00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:14.019
the right. And then you just create this division

00:34:14.019 --> 00:34:16.519
and this nastiness. And then you, you know, for

00:34:16.519 --> 00:34:19.019
example, drug prohibition, in my opinion, epic

00:34:19.019 --> 00:34:21.579
failure. Now you empower the underworld. So now

00:34:21.579 --> 00:34:23.659
they can make money being in different gangs.

00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:25.860
And then we wonder why our police have got to

00:34:25.860 --> 00:34:29.039
wear tactical gear. everywhere because like every

00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:31.960
single day you see they get executed so it's

00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:33.659
all very well and don't get me wrong there's

00:34:33.659 --> 00:34:35.400
some terrible cops out there and terrible firefighters

00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:38.059
and terrible plumbers and accountants especially

00:34:38.059 --> 00:34:42.300
politicians but um but yeah if we're not looking

00:34:42.300 --> 00:34:45.719
at the you know why why were there 400 children

00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:48.940
in that one house and why didn't someone answer

00:34:48.940 --> 00:34:52.019
the door you know that's also part of this conversation

00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:55.480
And I learned a great lesson that day. I mean,

00:34:55.539 --> 00:34:59.099
I did. And and a lot there was two other of those

00:34:59.099 --> 00:35:01.119
kids. One of his sergeant's kid was actually

00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:07.900
there, too. Is this like edited? He's sitting

00:35:07.900 --> 00:35:09.940
here saying, don't say that. But there was someone

00:35:09.940 --> 00:35:13.320
that he knew his kid was there, too. And he he

00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:16.599
went to jail just like everybody else. And and,

00:35:16.659 --> 00:35:19.139
you know, how many we've had some things happen

00:35:19.139 --> 00:35:21.679
here in Gilbert, Arizona, if cops have been more

00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:24.539
proactive in making sure he even called the canine

00:35:24.539 --> 00:35:26.679
out to get the kids that it's scattered because

00:35:26.679 --> 00:35:29.360
he wasn't messing around. And, you know, how

00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:31.719
how many kids did we stop from going any further

00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:35.400
in in that? I say we you stop from going any

00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:37.420
further down that road because of that night

00:35:37.420 --> 00:35:40.800
of the cop that was the jerk. Yeah, especially

00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:42.849
if you're stopping. cars, because I mean, how

00:35:42.849 --> 00:35:45.690
many times do you go past those horrible memorial

00:35:45.690 --> 00:35:48.170
circles on the side of the road? And, you know,

00:35:48.190 --> 00:35:49.889
arguably a lot of those are going to be teenagers.

00:35:50.550 --> 00:35:54.769
Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So that was, um, I mean, that's

00:35:54.769 --> 00:35:56.750
law enforcement though. And James, we have five

00:35:56.750 --> 00:36:00.230
kids and I actually would appreciate a cop that

00:36:00.230 --> 00:36:03.010
was a jerk to one of my five kids, you know,

00:36:03.010 --> 00:36:06.010
we'd work it out at home after that, but yeah.

00:36:06.449 --> 00:36:09.139
So I learned a lot that night. I'll give you

00:36:09.139 --> 00:36:12.059
a quick story about the power of proactivity.

00:36:12.139 --> 00:36:13.599
And I think this is the problem that we see in

00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:16.119
first responders is we just keep responding to

00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:18.380
these calls. But the people who can do the proactive

00:36:18.380 --> 00:36:21.440
stuff aren't stepping up. But we had a kid where

00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:23.500
I live. It's a beautiful community. It's like

00:36:23.500 --> 00:36:26.139
four, actually five subdivisions around this

00:36:26.139 --> 00:36:29.280
communal play space. So there's a football pitch

00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:31.340
and, you know, a swimming pool and all the things

00:36:31.340 --> 00:36:33.940
where the kids truly can play all day and then

00:36:33.940 --> 00:36:36.019
come home when the streetlights come on. But

00:36:36.019 --> 00:36:39.099
we had this teen. I mean, truly terrorizing the

00:36:39.099 --> 00:36:41.199
neighborhood, driving. It's like 30 miles an

00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:43.719
hour around that main area, 25 through the streets.

00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:47.780
And he would be doing 60. Almost lost it in front

00:36:47.780 --> 00:36:50.380
of a bus stop full of kids at one point. And

00:36:50.380 --> 00:36:52.719
I'm on our community Facebook. I'm like, does

00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:54.300
anyone know this kid? And a lot of people, oh,

00:36:54.380 --> 00:36:56.360
they need to put up speed bumps. They, they,

00:36:56.400 --> 00:36:58.000
they. And I'm like, what about us? What about

00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:01.639
we? And so a couple of them told me who he was.

00:37:02.780 --> 00:37:04.820
Unusual last name. I end up tracking the dad

00:37:04.820 --> 00:37:09.840
down. I go to his place of work and I sit down

00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:12.260
and say, hey, you know, this is who I am. This

00:37:12.260 --> 00:37:14.920
is what I do for a living. I see the result of

00:37:14.920 --> 00:37:16.940
this kind of thing. And it's not good for the

00:37:16.940 --> 00:37:19.599
driver or the other people. You know, is this

00:37:19.599 --> 00:37:23.179
your son's car? The dad calls straight away,

00:37:23.300 --> 00:37:26.079
tells his wife to take away the son's keys. We

00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:28.739
don't see him for a few months. He comes back

00:37:28.739 --> 00:37:31.139
and that kid is driven like a damn saint ever

00:37:31.139 --> 00:37:34.179
since. I just bumped into them at a burger joint

00:37:34.179 --> 00:37:38.480
yesterday. The kid and his parents and his dad

00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:40.099
was over by the soda machine. I went over and

00:37:40.099 --> 00:37:41.639
said, I don't know if you remember me. He said,

00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:43.760
I thought I recognized you. I said, tell your

00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:46.360
son that you're proud of him because the humility

00:37:46.360 --> 00:37:50.179
it takes for a teen to go. I was wrong. That

00:37:50.179 --> 00:37:53.099
is so, so impressive. But it just took, you know,

00:37:53.099 --> 00:37:54.619
me and a couple of people that helped me find

00:37:54.619 --> 00:37:56.719
and just took people who cared enough to say,

00:37:56.780 --> 00:37:58.699
we're going to fix this. Not I'm going to wait

00:37:58.699 --> 00:38:01.960
for the cops to catch him because we both seen

00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:03.780
that. We've both seen we've cut them out of the

00:38:03.780 --> 00:38:06.309
cars before. We know what happens if you don't

00:38:06.309 --> 00:38:08.610
intervene. But the problem is that the first

00:38:08.610 --> 00:38:11.309
responders are left with that worst case scenario

00:38:11.309 --> 00:38:14.630
because our lawmakers or community aren't willing

00:38:14.630 --> 00:38:17.409
to step up and just say, we need to stop this

00:38:17.409 --> 00:38:19.610
or we need to mentor our children and guide them

00:38:19.610 --> 00:38:21.809
in a position where they're not being dragged

00:38:21.809 --> 00:38:26.630
into gangs, for example. I mean, amen. That's

00:38:26.630 --> 00:38:28.849
beautiful. And I think that there's something

00:38:28.849 --> 00:38:30.929
where we all can uniquely do like that every

00:38:30.929 --> 00:38:34.010
single day. I mean, not even that dramatic. It's

00:38:34.010 --> 00:38:37.110
just caring. It's caring for kids. It's caring.

00:38:37.329 --> 00:38:40.010
It's knowing. We live in a community that they

00:38:40.010 --> 00:38:43.329
call it a big, small town. We had our kid driving

00:38:43.329 --> 00:38:46.269
crazy like that. Took one phone call to his dad,

00:38:46.349 --> 00:38:48.690
and that was it. But it wasn't to the cops. It

00:38:48.690 --> 00:38:52.710
was to his dad. And so I've got four boys. Believe

00:38:52.710 --> 00:38:57.860
me. And for really, you know, rambunctious, very

00:38:57.860 --> 00:39:00.840
inquisitive boys I've had, you know, and and

00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:03.559
it took I was grateful for the community when

00:39:03.559 --> 00:39:06.820
things didn't go quite right. Yeah, that's the

00:39:06.820 --> 00:39:08.639
problem with policing now, in my opinion, is

00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:11.579
nobody stops and talks to people. You know, why?

00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:16.019
If when I was doing my patrol and granted, I

00:39:16.019 --> 00:39:18.280
wasn't in patrol very long, but when I was in

00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:21.010
patrol. Shoot, I'd stop and talk to people, throw

00:39:21.010 --> 00:39:23.150
a football with kids and do whatever you needed

00:39:23.150 --> 00:39:25.670
to do, because that's how that's not because

00:39:25.670 --> 00:39:27.750
it was all community policing was so big at the

00:39:27.750 --> 00:39:30.269
time or anything else. No, I speak. Number one,

00:39:30.269 --> 00:39:32.590
I was bored of driving around. And number two,

00:39:32.610 --> 00:39:34.989
I just wanted to sit and talk to people and get

00:39:34.989 --> 00:39:37.909
the story. And in law enforcement, that's how

00:39:37.909 --> 00:39:40.809
we develop sources. And that's how we find out

00:39:40.809 --> 00:39:42.630
what's going on in our communities and what's

00:39:42.630 --> 00:39:44.769
going on in our neighborhoods. And they can say,

00:39:44.829 --> 00:39:46.510
yeah, some guys just drive around like a jerk.

00:39:46.670 --> 00:39:50.050
All right, I'll go find him. And then do I need

00:39:50.050 --> 00:39:53.449
to give this kid a ticket? No, I don't. And so,

00:39:53.469 --> 00:39:56.650
you know, a lot of people think that just because

00:39:56.650 --> 00:39:58.409
the police are called, we're going to take somebody

00:39:58.409 --> 00:40:00.690
to jail. That's not true either. You know, I'd

00:40:00.690 --> 00:40:02.590
rather just sit and talk and solve a problem

00:40:02.590 --> 00:40:04.469
with somebody, help them out where they can get

00:40:04.469 --> 00:40:07.530
some help and go on our way. And I'm grateful

00:40:07.530 --> 00:40:10.110
for that dad. He didn't say to you, not my kid.

00:40:10.230 --> 00:40:13.090
He probably felt like we did. Like what? Oh.

00:40:13.670 --> 00:40:16.050
You know, cause we, we're not everywhere all

00:40:16.050 --> 00:40:18.269
the time, but I'm grateful for that dad who took

00:40:18.269 --> 00:40:20.829
it seriously. And for you, James, who like sought

00:40:20.829 --> 00:40:24.309
him out. Yeah. Yeah. I got a lot of admiration

00:40:24.309 --> 00:40:26.250
for him and it was it. He had the humility to

00:40:26.250 --> 00:40:28.630
go, you know, okay. Cause he's, I think he saw,

00:40:28.710 --> 00:40:30.630
look, I don't want your kid to end up wrapped

00:40:30.630 --> 00:40:33.190
around a lamppost. You know, I've seen it. It's

00:40:33.190 --> 00:40:35.369
horrible. So I think once he realized it was

00:40:35.369 --> 00:40:38.030
coming from a place of kindness, not just pure

00:40:38.030 --> 00:40:40.769
judgment, then, you know, he kind of caved. So

00:40:40.769 --> 00:40:43.730
that was it was, again, humility. And that's

00:40:43.730 --> 00:40:45.369
like you said, that's what happens when you sit

00:40:45.369 --> 00:40:46.949
down with a person, look them in the eye and

00:40:46.949 --> 00:40:49.329
have a normal conversation and pull the emotion

00:40:49.329 --> 00:40:53.429
from it. Yeah, for sure. And I think humility

00:40:53.429 --> 00:40:56.949
is a huge thing in life. And it's you being humble

00:40:56.949 --> 00:40:58.909
enough to say, yeah, we have a problem and I'm

00:40:58.909 --> 00:41:00.190
going to go take care of it and talk to this

00:41:00.190 --> 00:41:02.449
guy without flying off the handle, because how

00:41:02.449 --> 00:41:04.869
many parents would just fly off the handle? And

00:41:04.869 --> 00:41:06.769
so it's like you got to sit down, take a breath

00:41:06.769 --> 00:41:08.510
and say, this is our problem. Let's have let's

00:41:08.510 --> 00:41:10.409
have create a solution. It really wasn't that

00:41:10.409 --> 00:41:12.269
big of a deal. I mean, at the end of the day,

00:41:12.289 --> 00:41:14.650
I mean, that could have been tragic for little

00:41:14.650 --> 00:41:16.710
kids could have gotten in the middle of that,

00:41:16.730 --> 00:41:19.570
not just this teen. But it really wasn't that

00:41:19.570 --> 00:41:22.289
big of a solution. It was quite. quite just common

00:41:22.289 --> 00:41:24.829
sense of what to do. And you did it, but you

00:41:24.829 --> 00:41:27.929
did it. That's what's big. Yeah. Well, I think

00:41:27.929 --> 00:41:29.690
we've got a culture of pointing fingers rather

00:41:29.690 --> 00:41:31.190
than what they say. When you point a finger,

00:41:31.250 --> 00:41:33.070
the other three are pointing back at you. Like

00:41:33.070 --> 00:41:34.730
we need to remember that, you know, if you want

00:41:34.730 --> 00:41:36.489
to change the world, start at home, as they say.

00:41:37.030 --> 00:41:40.489
Yeah, for sure. All right. Well, let's kind of

00:41:40.489 --> 00:41:43.110
move towards the, you know, the, the area where

00:41:43.110 --> 00:41:46.090
you wrote the book about. When did you find yourself

00:41:46.090 --> 00:41:49.289
working with gangs in general? And then, you

00:41:49.289 --> 00:41:51.010
know, what was the incident that took you towards

00:41:51.010 --> 00:41:54.469
the white supremacist specifically? I was I was

00:41:54.469 --> 00:41:57.570
on it. I was a police officer for, you know,

00:41:57.570 --> 00:42:01.269
a year, a year, two years. And I had an interest

00:42:01.269 --> 00:42:04.849
in working gangs just because I wanted, you know,

00:42:04.889 --> 00:42:06.869
when I was in patrol, like I said, I pull I pull

00:42:06.869 --> 00:42:09.860
a kid over. blatantly breaking the law traffic

00:42:09.860 --> 00:42:12.360
law i pull him over start talking to him i did

00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:14.860
not give him a ticket but then i gave him my

00:42:14.860 --> 00:42:17.579
phone number i said if you need anything or if

00:42:17.579 --> 00:42:20.019
you you know because i knew he was associating

00:42:20.019 --> 00:42:22.920
with a crip set that was in this particular neighborhood

00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:26.739
and he's a white kid and he had a nice car and

00:42:26.739 --> 00:42:29.000
and so he'd drive him all over the place well

00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:32.659
fast forward he got three rounds in the back

00:42:32.659 --> 00:42:35.539
of his head because the crips wanted his car

00:42:36.170 --> 00:42:38.510
And so that was my introduction in the gangs.

00:42:38.889 --> 00:42:42.750
And so I went from there to another gang area,

00:42:42.849 --> 00:42:44.889
and then I was eventually taken to the gang unit.

00:42:46.250 --> 00:42:49.369
White supremacy was nowhere on my radar, nowhere

00:42:49.369 --> 00:42:52.190
to be seen. And then one day coming home from

00:42:52.190 --> 00:42:54.130
working a West Side City case out of Phoenix,

00:42:54.369 --> 00:42:56.869
some West Side City Crips were shooting up police

00:42:56.869 --> 00:42:59.849
officers, so we were helping Phoenix out. Driving

00:42:59.849 --> 00:43:02.690
home, a motor went to pull over a truck. The

00:43:02.690 --> 00:43:05.599
truck didn't stop. Then the guy bells from the

00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:08.260
truck. And so I said, OK, I'll help out. I'm

00:43:08.260 --> 00:43:11.219
right there. And he came running at me. It's

00:43:11.219 --> 00:43:13.880
like game on. So I go down to tackle him and

00:43:13.880 --> 00:43:16.820
he pulled out a nine, a nine millimeter handgun,

00:43:16.940 --> 00:43:20.519
stuck it in my chest. And when he hit my chest,

00:43:20.579 --> 00:43:23.480
it dislodged the slide so couldn't fire. And

00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:25.599
then we ended up fighting over the gun. That

00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:28.440
guy was a fresh cut skinhead. He was my my very

00:43:28.440 --> 00:43:31.289
first introduction in a white supremacy. You

00:43:31.289 --> 00:43:33.989
know, the kid that tried to kill me was my first

00:43:33.989 --> 00:43:38.590
skin, which then made me upset because it goes

00:43:38.590 --> 00:43:40.929
back to why are you putting me in this situation?

00:43:41.269 --> 00:43:43.349
You know, you're you're white supremacist, but

00:43:43.349 --> 00:43:45.590
I'm a white guy. Why are you doing this? Which

00:43:45.590 --> 00:43:50.369
then turned into. Just there's something there's

00:43:50.369 --> 00:43:53.590
a problem. So I started diving into the world

00:43:53.590 --> 00:43:56.710
of white supremacy, finally being left in a parking

00:43:56.710 --> 00:44:00.789
lot in a van while my. The guys on my squad,

00:44:00.949 --> 00:44:04.110
they're all Hispanic and they can go work the

00:44:04.110 --> 00:44:06.190
Tejano bars and stuff like that. But I'm stuck

00:44:06.190 --> 00:44:10.110
in the van watching cars. And I said, I'm done.

00:44:10.530 --> 00:44:12.449
I'm working white boy stuff and you guys can

00:44:12.449 --> 00:44:16.289
sit in the van and I'll go to concerts and shows.

00:44:16.670 --> 00:44:18.489
Yeah, but they left him in the van. Like one

00:44:18.489 --> 00:44:20.550
time he's like, where are you guys? And he's

00:44:20.550 --> 00:44:22.650
like, oh, we went home. We left two hours ago.

00:44:22.710 --> 00:44:26.789
And he was in the van. You guys are jerks, man.

00:44:27.320 --> 00:44:29.460
He'd left me in a parking lot in a sweaty van

00:44:29.460 --> 00:44:32.360
for two hours while they left. It's like, all

00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:35.280
right. But that was my introduction to white

00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:39.079
power. And from there, it just morphed and grew.

00:44:39.380 --> 00:44:42.320
And, you know, 19 guys in prison for murder,

00:44:42.440 --> 00:44:46.519
attempted murder. And Tani and I shut down, more

00:44:46.519 --> 00:44:49.199
Tani than me, shut down the most violent skinhead

00:44:49.199 --> 00:44:51.699
crew in the world, in my opinion. I gathered

00:44:51.699 --> 00:44:53.900
a lot of information. I didn't shut them down.

00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:57.159
But again, nobody went to jail out of that. But

00:44:57.159 --> 00:44:59.619
what we did was expose them for what they were

00:44:59.619 --> 00:45:01.920
and what they were doing. And they disbanded

00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:05.280
the group. Yeah, I think I did help you see things

00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:08.019
different because we couldn't get law enforcement's

00:45:08.019 --> 00:45:12.079
attention on it. And it was like, well, what

00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:15.139
is the end result? What do you want to have happen?

00:45:15.340 --> 00:45:17.139
He said, I want them to stop hurting kids and

00:45:17.139 --> 00:45:19.920
people in our society, whatever he said. And

00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:23.719
I said, well, there's another way. There is another

00:45:23.719 --> 00:45:26.619
way. Not every time people have to go to jail

00:45:26.619 --> 00:45:28.840
for you to have done something right. So you

00:45:28.840 --> 00:45:32.800
just expose them. And they imploded from within.

00:45:33.199 --> 00:45:37.539
What was the reason that they weren't immediately

00:45:37.539 --> 00:45:40.480
incarcerated when one would assume maybe people

00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:45.139
from other sects would have been? Well, the 19

00:45:45.139 --> 00:45:47.179
guys I put away for murder, attempted murder,

00:45:47.440 --> 00:45:49.599
I mean, there's a body right in front of me.

00:45:51.579 --> 00:45:54.099
There's all these different things. The guys

00:45:54.099 --> 00:45:56.719
that we, the group that we shut down, it was

00:45:56.719 --> 00:46:00.119
an international crew, huge chapter in the UK,

00:46:00.380 --> 00:46:05.719
Spain, Germany, huge chapter in the US, Canada.

00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:11.539
And so what we did, because we formed this, our

00:46:11.539 --> 00:46:14.059
organization, the Supremacist Intelligence Network,

00:46:14.139 --> 00:46:15.500
and we were able to take all this information

00:46:15.500 --> 00:46:17.599
from all over the world, from law enforcement,

00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:20.460
but nobody could really, you know, yeah, we,

00:46:20.780 --> 00:46:22.900
supposedly this is going on or this is going

00:46:22.900 --> 00:46:27.539
on. And because, you know, white power wasn't

00:46:27.539 --> 00:46:30.199
the squeaky wheel, you know, it wasn't what everybody

00:46:30.199 --> 00:46:32.659
was into. It wasn't, they weren't doing drive

00:46:32.659 --> 00:46:34.699
-by shootings. They weren't doing bank robberies.

00:46:34.719 --> 00:46:36.059
They weren't doing all this different stuff.

00:46:36.219 --> 00:46:38.940
But what they were doing is going out and doing

00:46:38.940 --> 00:46:41.940
hunting trips and targeting, you know, minorities

00:46:41.940 --> 00:46:45.980
or, or biracial couples or, or gay couples, whatever

00:46:45.980 --> 00:46:49.300
it was. And so we were able to gather all this

00:46:49.300 --> 00:46:52.099
information and we were able to work with the

00:46:52.099 --> 00:46:54.780
people at the Southern Poverty Law Center and

00:46:54.780 --> 00:46:56.820
we just exposed everybody for what they were.

00:46:57.320 --> 00:46:59.860
And that embarrassed them because now how could

00:46:59.860 --> 00:47:02.199
you go to work? It embarrassed their families

00:47:02.199 --> 00:47:04.780
because their father or their brother or their

00:47:04.780 --> 00:47:07.559
nephew was part of these organizations. And so

00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:10.960
they just said, no more. And at first we couldn't

00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:13.480
get anyone to listen. And it was so crazy to

00:47:13.480 --> 00:47:15.760
me that it's like it's going on right here. We

00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:19.800
have some these problems are just huge. And yeah,

00:47:19.920 --> 00:47:22.519
but it kind of listened. And I mean, that was

00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:24.920
their business. So they listened and they were

00:47:24.920 --> 00:47:27.619
it was bigger to them that they they were even

00:47:27.619 --> 00:47:30.500
surprised. But it goes back to your story about

00:47:30.500 --> 00:47:34.820
you contacting the dad. You know, I called up

00:47:34.820 --> 00:47:38.679
the guy and told him who I was. I said, if you

00:47:38.679 --> 00:47:42.340
do not. Shut down this party. I will get every

00:47:42.340 --> 00:47:44.920
law enforcement personnel I know to be in front

00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:48.059
of your house and shut down and pull over everybody

00:47:48.059 --> 00:47:50.539
coming and going until you are embarrassed and

00:47:50.539 --> 00:47:52.920
you will have to shut it down. It goes back to

00:47:52.920 --> 00:47:54.920
the whole thing. You don't talk to the people.

00:47:55.639 --> 00:47:57.719
You know, you don't have to swoop in with a SWAT

00:47:57.719 --> 00:48:00.639
team or drive a ladder truck through the front

00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:04.780
yard. You know, just swoop in and make a phone

00:48:04.780 --> 00:48:08.719
call. You know, see him at a show. You know,

00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:11.780
I love going to shows, you know, I love going

00:48:11.780 --> 00:48:13.840
to the shows. Unfortunately, a lot of these guys

00:48:13.840 --> 00:48:17.780
go to and that's where we would get a lot of

00:48:17.780 --> 00:48:21.599
our information. Just talk to them. What was

00:48:21.599 --> 00:48:24.099
the difference or what surprised you when you

00:48:24.099 --> 00:48:26.380
first started being exposed to these type of

00:48:26.380 --> 00:48:28.519
gangs that maybe were different to some of the

00:48:28.519 --> 00:48:31.579
other ones that you'd been studying before? Well,

00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:34.900
first of all, the white power gangs, white supremacist

00:48:34.900 --> 00:48:38.000
groups. You don't call them a gang, they're crews.

00:48:38.739 --> 00:48:42.659
So the terminology is all different. But I asked

00:48:42.659 --> 00:48:45.400
if there's no neighborhood. You want West Side

00:48:45.400 --> 00:48:47.539
City? All right, I'll go to the West Side City

00:48:47.539 --> 00:48:50.500
neighborhood in Phoenix. You want wetback power?

00:48:50.719 --> 00:48:52.940
I'll take you to Mesa where wetback power is.

00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:54.800
Whatever the neighborhood you want, whatever

00:48:54.800 --> 00:48:57.380
the gang, they all have set neighborhoods. But

00:48:57.380 --> 00:48:59.820
that's why we titled the book The Hate Next Door,

00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:04.119
was because hate has no boundaries. And these

00:49:04.119 --> 00:49:07.559
organizations talk to people in the UK. I mean,

00:49:07.579 --> 00:49:10.340
the UK is the motherland to these guys. And so

00:49:10.340 --> 00:49:12.880
they can go to the UK and they have contacts

00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:14.639
and they have people they can stay at their homes.

00:49:14.840 --> 00:49:19.260
We tracked a guy from the war skins from Arizona

00:49:19.260 --> 00:49:23.320
all over the US, up into Canada, over to Italy,

00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:26.639
up through Italy to Germany, to Spain, to the

00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:30.500
UK, all on one trip. And he paid not a dime to

00:49:30.500 --> 00:49:34.409
do it because he knew the people. And that's

00:49:34.409 --> 00:49:38.269
how white power is. Is it the National Front

00:49:38.269 --> 00:49:45.070
that's the kind of UK hub? Back, well, the National

00:49:45.070 --> 00:49:48.110
Front was big when we shut down. National Front

00:49:48.110 --> 00:49:50.050
was going on, but that was in California, so

00:49:50.050 --> 00:49:52.010
much in California. No, that's American Front.

00:49:52.409 --> 00:49:54.610
Oh, American Front. Yeah, National Front. Then

00:49:54.610 --> 00:49:58.329
you had the British. Oh, man, it's been a while

00:49:58.329 --> 00:50:00.369
since I even thought of these groups. You had

00:50:00.369 --> 00:50:03.510
a biker crew, the Rats. They were part of all

00:50:03.510 --> 00:50:07.570
of that. You had Combat 18 that came from the

00:50:07.570 --> 00:50:10.590
U .K. and came over to U .S. When they came over

00:50:10.590 --> 00:50:12.610
to U .S., they actually turned into Hammerskins,

00:50:12.670 --> 00:50:14.130
and that's what started the whole Hammerskin

00:50:14.130 --> 00:50:17.190
nation. Really? Yeah, and now the Hammers are

00:50:17.190 --> 00:50:19.130
international, but they're not even as big as

00:50:19.130 --> 00:50:22.889
they used to be. So, yeah, actually. The British

00:50:22.889 --> 00:50:24.670
front. That was, that was the whole political

00:50:24.670 --> 00:50:27.309
movement, right? Yeah. Yeah. National front was

00:50:27.309 --> 00:50:29.429
political. And then the combat 18, I know a lot

00:50:29.429 --> 00:50:31.570
of the worst football violence you discover it,

00:50:31.570 --> 00:50:33.329
they were behind it and they didn't care which,

00:50:33.389 --> 00:50:35.469
you know, football kit they were wearing and

00:50:35.469 --> 00:50:37.070
just wanted to be the opposite of whoever they

00:50:37.070 --> 00:50:39.690
wanted to fight. Well, I keep trying to tell

00:50:39.690 --> 00:50:42.289
everybody, if you really want to go to a crazy

00:50:42.289 --> 00:50:45.510
time, go to a neighborhood soccer game in downtown

00:50:45.510 --> 00:50:49.329
London. And when these, you know, what was it?

00:50:50.860 --> 00:50:53.880
Chelsea headhunters and these different groups

00:50:53.880 --> 00:50:56.179
are playing each other. I mean, you guys block

00:50:56.179 --> 00:51:00.199
off streets just so one team can go into it so

00:51:00.199 --> 00:51:02.639
nobody bothers them. And the fans have to go

00:51:02.639 --> 00:51:04.920
a certain way and there's big fences set up.

00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:08.579
It's just craziness. I remember when we showed

00:51:08.579 --> 00:51:12.800
law enforcement in the UK, Scotland Yard, right?

00:51:12.860 --> 00:51:14.679
When we showed them, they were like, we don't

00:51:14.679 --> 00:51:16.650
have... We don't have a problem. We've kind of,

00:51:16.650 --> 00:51:19.449
you know, shut that all down. And when we showed

00:51:19.449 --> 00:51:22.909
them what they had with pictures, they were all

00:51:22.909 --> 00:51:26.829
over it, James. They were all over it. And they

00:51:26.829 --> 00:51:29.789
really great police work because once they knew

00:51:29.789 --> 00:51:32.389
they had a problem, they shut it down quick.

00:51:32.730 --> 00:51:35.389
I mean, Scotland Yard would laugh at us because

00:51:35.389 --> 00:51:37.829
we carry guns and they don't. And, you know,

00:51:37.829 --> 00:51:40.210
that whole conversation back and forth. Oh, you

00:51:40.210 --> 00:51:43.849
guys are pansies. You can't. And so we had a

00:51:43.849 --> 00:51:46.289
good time, but when we showed them what they

00:51:46.289 --> 00:51:48.610
had there, hey, can you come out and please teach

00:51:48.610 --> 00:51:53.030
us? So we flew out to London. And it was, what,

00:51:53.329 --> 00:51:56.269
two weeks later that everybody went silent, that

00:51:56.269 --> 00:52:00.050
the communication between America and overseas

00:52:00.050 --> 00:52:03.429
had gone silent because the Reds were after them.

00:52:03.469 --> 00:52:05.630
They knew it. They made their presence known,

00:52:05.750 --> 00:52:07.670
and they had the conversation, and it worked,

00:52:07.670 --> 00:52:09.769
too. And you had members of Parliament involved.

00:52:10.360 --> 00:52:12.960
I mean, it was ridiculous what all how deep it

00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:15.079
really went. But I'm not just saying that it's

00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:18.059
in the UK because it's everywhere. You know,

00:52:18.099 --> 00:52:21.260
it's all over how politically tied these groups

00:52:21.260 --> 00:52:24.059
are. And that's what that's I guess that goes

00:52:24.059 --> 00:52:26.280
back to another thing I've seen with these guys

00:52:26.280 --> 00:52:28.800
is they have political ties. There's no age limit

00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:32.599
to hate. You know, you look at Richard Butler.

00:52:32.619 --> 00:52:34.840
I was talking to him up till almost the day he

00:52:34.840 --> 00:52:38.699
died. And he was an old man, but he was a freaking

00:52:38.699 --> 00:52:42.590
hater. What are you seeing as far as a common

00:52:42.590 --> 00:52:45.170
denominator? Because if you look at the origin

00:52:45.170 --> 00:52:47.050
story of a lot of these other gangs that we have

00:52:47.050 --> 00:52:49.849
in the States, more often than not, post -World

00:52:49.849 --> 00:52:53.190
War II or post -Vietnam, you've got these ethnic

00:52:53.190 --> 00:52:55.170
groups. Initially, they're just banding together

00:52:55.170 --> 00:53:03.449
and protect each other. And then the toxic element

00:53:03.449 --> 00:53:07.039
of... Again, the prohibition and drugs always

00:53:07.039 --> 00:53:09.219
seem to seep their way in. And you look at obviously

00:53:09.219 --> 00:53:13.320
Crenshaw, Compton, et cetera, in the 80s. It

00:53:13.320 --> 00:53:16.019
wasn't about territory. It wasn't about protecting

00:53:16.019 --> 00:53:18.380
each other. It became completely poisoned by

00:53:18.380 --> 00:53:23.380
making money through illicit drugs. With that

00:53:23.380 --> 00:53:25.760
being said, you're talking about men and women

00:53:25.760 --> 00:53:30.320
who are holding down jobs. a different dynamic

00:53:30.320 --> 00:53:32.900
than what you see in a lot of these other gangs

00:53:32.900 --> 00:53:35.320
that we've experienced in the u .s well when

00:53:35.320 --> 00:53:38.119
you yeah that's just a great question because

00:53:38.119 --> 00:53:41.260
when you talk about your ethnic gangs is a gang

00:53:41.260 --> 00:53:44.000
of your hispanic games your black games neighborhood

00:53:44.000 --> 00:53:48.880
turf money drugs rap whatever any way they're

00:53:48.880 --> 00:53:50.099
going to make money they're going to make it

00:53:50.099 --> 00:53:52.940
so they're slinging dope doesn't matter they

00:53:52.940 --> 00:53:54.980
go to their car shows they do whatever they have

00:53:54.980 --> 00:53:58.340
to do but when you're talking white supremacy,

00:53:58.880 --> 00:54:02.380
that's, that's not, that's a gang of ideology.

00:54:03.039 --> 00:54:06.500
So you have, you have a, whether it's a religious

00:54:06.500 --> 00:54:10.760
based ideology, a homegrown ideology, an ideology

00:54:10.760 --> 00:54:13.239
taught to you by your parents, your uncle, your

00:54:13.239 --> 00:54:16.659
brother, your friend, whatever it is, it's an

00:54:16.659 --> 00:54:19.739
ideology of hate. And that's the main difference

00:54:19.739 --> 00:54:24.760
between say, you know, what ninth street or 18th

00:54:24.760 --> 00:54:30.340
street out of la compared to um an old war skin

00:54:30.340 --> 00:54:33.599
is that is that ideology is what's in their head

00:54:33.599 --> 00:54:38.119
so what is the difference between a young person

00:54:38.119 --> 00:54:40.280
being dragged into one of those ethnic gangs

00:54:40.280 --> 00:54:42.840
you know including white gangs and the kind of

00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:45.980
white supremacist route that these young people

00:54:45.980 --> 00:54:50.829
are taken into well Is there a difference? I

00:54:50.829 --> 00:54:55.349
think it's that feeling of belonging, of family,

00:54:55.449 --> 00:54:57.110
of all the things that we just talked about,

00:54:57.250 --> 00:55:00.429
that dad that said, hey, son, we're not going

00:55:00.429 --> 00:55:05.269
to act like that. If we're not providing it in

00:55:05.269 --> 00:55:07.929
our families, our children are going to find

00:55:07.929 --> 00:55:12.079
it somewhere else. And hopefully a coach gets

00:55:12.079 --> 00:55:14.440
in there with a lacrosse stick or, you know,

00:55:14.440 --> 00:55:16.539
a football or something. Hopefully that we have

00:55:16.539 --> 00:55:19.360
guardrails within our schools and and different

00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:21.760
things, communities for the families that are

00:55:21.760 --> 00:55:25.400
not quite, you know, maybe they're not functioning

00:55:25.400 --> 00:55:28.079
for whatever reason. You know, no judgment there,

00:55:28.179 --> 00:55:30.480
but maybe we have the guardrails within our schools

00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:32.760
and communities to help those children who don't

00:55:32.760 --> 00:55:35.400
feel like they have family just to show that

00:55:35.400 --> 00:55:37.739
they care. So they're not being indoctrinated

00:55:37.739 --> 00:55:41.610
by. by something else yeah if you look at it

00:55:41.610 --> 00:55:43.989
tony is 100 right they're they're looking for

00:55:43.989 --> 00:55:46.190
a family they're looking for brotherhood they're

00:55:46.190 --> 00:55:48.610
looking for something that makes them feel important

00:55:48.610 --> 00:55:51.570
and so when you when you have you know this is

00:55:51.570 --> 00:55:54.150
the crazy thing between a white gang and a white

00:55:54.150 --> 00:55:57.250
crew skinhead crew whatever you want to call

00:55:57.250 --> 00:56:00.699
them an ethnic gang is that to become a member

00:56:00.699 --> 00:56:03.500
of the ethnic gang, you have to get jumped in

00:56:03.500 --> 00:56:06.059
maybe. So three or four guys are going to jump

00:56:06.059 --> 00:56:08.420
you in. Hey, you jump up after 30 seconds, you

00:56:08.420 --> 00:56:10.800
hug each other and you say, we're great. On the

00:56:10.800 --> 00:56:14.440
white side, you know, they don't, every now and

00:56:14.440 --> 00:56:16.940
then they might, but usually there's no jump

00:56:16.940 --> 00:56:20.159
in, but they'll ask you for your lineage. They'll

00:56:20.159 --> 00:56:23.119
want you to do a little short writing about who

00:56:23.119 --> 00:56:25.460
you are and what you represent. They were bringing

00:56:25.460 --> 00:56:28.519
in polygraphs. They were doing, okay, see that?

00:56:28.920 --> 00:56:31.179
Black guy walking out of Circle K, I want you

00:56:31.179 --> 00:56:33.840
to go beat him down. That's how you earn your

00:56:33.840 --> 00:56:38.699
laces. And so it's an ideology of I'm better

00:56:38.699 --> 00:56:41.780
than you because I'm white. And once you start

00:56:41.780 --> 00:56:44.179
doing that, then you got to look at the group

00:56:44.179 --> 00:56:47.480
that they're getting become a member of. Are

00:56:47.480 --> 00:56:49.159
they a member of the National Alliance? Are they

00:56:49.159 --> 00:56:51.139
a member of Aryan Nations? Are they a member

00:56:51.139 --> 00:56:53.679
of the National Socialist Movement? What exactly

00:56:53.679 --> 00:56:56.880
are they a member of? And once you find that

00:56:56.880 --> 00:57:01.230
out. Once you find that out, then you can break

00:57:01.230 --> 00:57:03.429
down the ideology of what they're doing and what

00:57:03.429 --> 00:57:06.590
they're about and what they represent. It's not

00:57:06.590 --> 00:57:12.610
just I live I live on. It's not just I live at,

00:57:12.750 --> 00:57:15.630
you know, the intersection of Mesa Drive and

00:57:15.630 --> 00:57:19.849
Maryland. That's it's not that is that I am a

00:57:19.849 --> 00:57:22.929
white man. And I am a white man who's proud of

00:57:22.929 --> 00:57:24.610
my race. And I'm not going to let anybody come

00:57:24.610 --> 00:57:28.179
in because God said. Within Christian identity,

00:57:28.500 --> 00:57:31.059
God said that this world was created for white

00:57:31.059 --> 00:57:35.119
people and we will take this world over. As a

00:57:35.119 --> 00:57:38.380
mom, it never occurred to me to teach children

00:57:38.380 --> 00:57:40.619
that they were better because of skin color and

00:57:40.619 --> 00:57:43.219
not what they do or who they are. It was just

00:57:43.219 --> 00:57:45.380
so foreign to me when this all came into our

00:57:45.380 --> 00:57:52.710
home. It's just totally different. It's interesting.

00:57:52.909 --> 00:57:55.710
If you look at a lot of the holy places, Jerusalem

00:57:55.710 --> 00:57:57.590
and some of these other ones, all these different

00:57:57.590 --> 00:57:59.449
interpretations of religion, like, well, this

00:57:59.449 --> 00:58:02.710
is our holy place. This is our holy place. Maybe

00:58:02.710 --> 00:58:05.630
it's just the holy place for human beings. You

00:58:05.630 --> 00:58:07.309
know what I mean? This is what's so crazy. And

00:58:07.309 --> 00:58:09.889
even if you look at British, you go back in my

00:58:09.889 --> 00:58:12.730
lineage, my country was raped and pillaged by

00:58:12.730 --> 00:58:15.889
the Vikings, the Romans, the Danes, the Gauls.

00:58:16.230 --> 00:58:19.949
I mean, we've been slapped around and, you know.

00:58:20.920 --> 00:58:23.119
penetrated by most of the countries in Europe.

00:58:23.219 --> 00:58:25.679
So to say that you're some pure -blooded Aryan

00:58:25.679 --> 00:58:28.260
race is ridiculous. So even when you reverse

00:58:28.260 --> 00:58:31.400
engineer the United Kingdom, you go far enough

00:58:31.400 --> 00:58:35.179
back, depending on what your belief process is.

00:58:35.260 --> 00:58:37.539
If you're a kind of Jesus kind of a guy, well,

00:58:37.579 --> 00:58:38.960
I'm pretty sure that takes you to the Middle

00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:40.840
East. If you're more of an evolutionary guy,

00:58:40.940 --> 00:58:46.400
well, now we're in North Africa. So yeah, I mean,

00:58:46.420 --> 00:58:50.389
it's so crazy that people... They'll use parts

00:58:50.389 --> 00:58:53.670
of these holy books or history or whatever is

00:58:53.670 --> 00:58:56.329
that fits their own mythology. But then they'll

00:58:56.329 --> 00:58:58.150
turn their heads at all the other stuff that

00:58:58.150 --> 00:59:01.530
completely rebukes it. Yeah, even about like

00:59:01.530 --> 00:59:03.269
we talked about this a little bit in our book

00:59:03.269 --> 00:59:05.929
is, you know, the white supremacists or the white

00:59:05.929 --> 00:59:09.130
nationalists were saying that Jesus was actually

00:59:09.130 --> 00:59:13.590
from Cornwall, England, that that's actually

00:59:13.590 --> 00:59:16.730
where he's from. Oh, he was the Shires. Is that

00:59:16.730 --> 00:59:22.269
where he was born? The story is he was born in

00:59:22.269 --> 00:59:26.730
Jerusalem, but when he was 12, his mom decided

00:59:26.730 --> 00:59:29.210
to ship him over to an uncle's house in Cornwall

00:59:29.210 --> 00:59:31.849
where he learned how to be a carpenter and he

00:59:31.849 --> 00:59:34.469
learned how to do these things. And then he got

00:59:34.469 --> 00:59:37.769
back on a boat with a seed of a tree and took

00:59:37.769 --> 00:59:40.670
that tree over to Jerusalem and planted it. And

00:59:40.670 --> 00:59:43.800
apparently there's one seed. One tree growing

00:59:43.800 --> 00:59:48.980
in Israel that has roots back to the UK. That's

00:59:48.980 --> 00:59:51.739
what. But that his mom is, you know, from the

00:59:51.739 --> 00:59:55.019
UK or from that area, Cornwall. So they're trying

00:59:55.019 --> 00:59:56.639
to get. So what they're trying to do is they're

00:59:56.639 --> 01:00:00.300
trying to inject the white race into. Even Jesus

01:00:00.300 --> 01:00:03.880
Christ. Jesus Christ. Yeah. It's enough to make

01:00:03.880 --> 01:00:06.239
it. I mean, it's not to piss you off. It's just

01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:08.880
like what white supremacy is taken from the Viking

01:00:08.880 --> 01:00:11.880
culture. You know, whether you're an Odinist,

01:00:11.920 --> 01:00:13.880
whether you're a pagan, whether you're Ossetian,

01:00:14.019 --> 01:00:16.500
whatever you might want to be, the white supremacy

01:00:16.500 --> 01:00:19.300
has taken the runes and made them their language

01:00:19.300 --> 01:00:22.760
of hate. But the runic writing is amazing. I

01:00:22.760 --> 01:00:25.300
love looking at it. I love the history of runes.

01:00:25.639 --> 01:00:28.960
And I'm good friends with a guy who can decipher

01:00:28.960 --> 01:00:32.840
and do all that. And it's great stuff. But within

01:00:32.840 --> 01:00:35.300
the white supremacy world, they've taken that

01:00:35.300 --> 01:00:40.230
and they created a language of hate. Jesus was,

01:00:40.230 --> 01:00:42.530
you know, even with what you just said about,

01:00:42.530 --> 01:00:45.010
you know, if everything's been pillaged and,

01:00:45.030 --> 01:00:49.269
you know, upside down, whatever, no one's a pure

01:00:49.269 --> 01:00:51.730
race anywhere. It's just exactly what you said.

01:00:52.869 --> 01:00:55.090
I've had a conversation with a few people recently.

01:00:55.170 --> 01:00:57.130
This is just something that I've started to think

01:00:57.130 --> 01:01:00.409
about. When we talk about the evolution of mankind,

01:01:00.750 --> 01:01:03.809
we always seem to look at innovation, technology.

01:01:04.010 --> 01:01:06.650
So fire, the wheel, you know, the industrial

01:01:06.650 --> 01:01:10.039
revolution, the computer. But if you actually

01:01:10.039 --> 01:01:12.639
look at human history, I would argue the evolution

01:01:12.639 --> 01:01:16.119
of mankind is kindness, compassion, empathy,

01:01:16.280 --> 01:01:18.500
which is why these holy doctrines that they're

01:01:18.500 --> 01:01:20.760
very genesis, the very nucleus of what they're

01:01:20.760 --> 01:01:23.440
trying to tell us is don't be an asshole and

01:01:23.440 --> 01:01:26.380
your life will be good. So, you know, this is,

01:01:26.420 --> 01:01:29.139
I think, where this divisive rhetoric that we've

01:01:29.139 --> 01:01:32.320
seen recently from both sides of the aisle, this

01:01:32.320 --> 01:01:35.889
division. is an absolute step backwards. And

01:01:35.889 --> 01:01:38.090
you're fueling the fire on white supremacists

01:01:38.090 --> 01:01:41.909
or white supremacy and all these other extremist

01:01:41.909 --> 01:01:45.690
mythologies by dividing a nation rather than

01:01:45.690 --> 01:01:48.429
pulling them together. So I would argue if you're

01:01:48.429 --> 01:01:51.849
driven by hate and you've been told to dislike

01:01:51.849 --> 01:01:53.769
certain groups of people, that you are actually

01:01:53.769 --> 01:01:56.590
sliding back in evolution. And if you want to

01:01:56.590 --> 01:02:00.260
progress as a species or as a human being, leaning

01:02:00.260 --> 01:02:02.619
into the kindness, compassion, empathy is how

01:02:02.619 --> 01:02:07.280
we move forward. Yeah. And I'm in, in Tani, Tani

01:02:07.280 --> 01:02:09.719
kind of gets on me at times for this, but I,

01:02:09.780 --> 01:02:12.059
I'm all about calling them for what they are.

01:02:12.079 --> 01:02:14.440
They're hypocrites. They're idiots. I mean, really,

01:02:14.460 --> 01:02:17.079
you're really going to tell me that, that America

01:02:17.079 --> 01:02:21.139
was built by white people. I mean, what we came

01:02:21.139 --> 01:02:23.679
over and stole it from the Indians. I mean, really,

01:02:23.719 --> 01:02:26.260
what, what are we talking about here? And so

01:02:26.260 --> 01:02:30.840
it's, it's a hypocritical. ideology, which then,

01:02:30.920 --> 01:02:33.380
but the problem is, is we have this, we created

01:02:33.380 --> 01:02:36.860
this little formula of hate. And once you have

01:02:36.860 --> 01:02:40.800
your ideology and you talk about your ideology,

01:02:40.800 --> 01:02:43.480
that creates the rhetoric. And so you have the

01:02:43.480 --> 01:02:46.360
ideology and the rhetoric. And anytime you insert

01:02:46.360 --> 01:02:50.820
religion into any of that is a recipe for violence.

01:02:51.119 --> 01:02:53.699
And that's exactly what's going on in the world

01:02:53.699 --> 01:02:56.800
today is that we have created a recipe of violence.

01:02:57.440 --> 01:03:00.679
And, and the way to stop it is to remove one

01:03:00.679 --> 01:03:04.619
of those things out of that formula and create

01:03:04.619 --> 01:03:07.199
a world of peace and love and joy and harmony.

01:03:07.699 --> 01:03:10.539
Is that possible? Well, I think it happens in

01:03:10.539 --> 01:03:12.940
our homes. Like I like kind of going back to

01:03:12.940 --> 01:03:15.900
what you were saying is like, like I had this

01:03:15.900 --> 01:03:18.679
really great, like little lesson that I planned

01:03:18.679 --> 01:03:20.679
for our family of, you know, like I said, five

01:03:20.679 --> 01:03:23.420
kids and it was all very, very, you know, little.

01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:25.900
little things that we showed them, you know,

01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:27.699
and I'm like, am I making any sense? Cause I,

01:03:27.739 --> 01:03:30.340
it wasn't going over well. And Matt just said

01:03:30.340 --> 01:03:34.300
to him, yeah, don't be a dick. And so above our

01:03:34.300 --> 01:03:36.480
wall, sorry, mom, again, for this, it will, it

01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:40.059
says D B A D, you know? So when they leave, it's

01:03:40.059 --> 01:03:42.659
not return with honor or remember who you are

01:03:42.659 --> 01:03:45.420
or anything. It's don't be a dick. And I think

01:03:45.420 --> 01:03:47.099
that when you said, don't be an asshole, I mean,

01:03:47.119 --> 01:03:50.320
that's what we're trying to do. When we see people

01:03:50.320 --> 01:03:53.659
bully each other on a national stage or anywhere

01:03:53.659 --> 01:03:55.500
else, when we're seeing all this stuff, we're

01:03:55.500 --> 01:03:58.280
going against. It makes me cringe because as

01:03:58.280 --> 01:04:00.699
a mom, if that was my child acting like that

01:04:00.699 --> 01:04:04.000
within our own home, within our community, and

01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:07.699
then especially on a public stage, that wouldn't

01:04:07.699 --> 01:04:11.079
be tolerated. So I think you're right. Go back.

01:04:11.380 --> 01:04:17.480
We're moving backwards. We've already seen where

01:04:17.480 --> 01:04:21.480
this leads. When I look outside my front door,

01:04:21.639 --> 01:04:24.880
my whole street is completely diverse. When we

01:04:24.880 --> 01:04:27.159
go into that communal space, there are kids of

01:04:27.159 --> 01:04:29.460
all colors and creeds playing basketball together,

01:04:29.559 --> 01:04:32.420
swimming together, walking dogs, jogging, you

01:04:32.420 --> 01:04:35.380
know, whatever it is. When I turn on the TV,

01:04:35.579 --> 01:04:38.840
the last four years, apparently all white people

01:04:38.840 --> 01:04:41.739
were racist. And everyone was for slavery still.

01:04:41.860 --> 01:04:44.719
And then now we're back in the opposite side.

01:04:44.840 --> 01:04:47.519
All Mexicans are rapists and murderers and a

01:04:47.519 --> 01:04:50.019
very anti -immigrant mentality. And that's just

01:04:50.019 --> 01:04:51.860
my opinion, but that's what I hear from these

01:04:51.860 --> 01:04:55.460
two, divisive rhetoric. What is your impression

01:04:55.460 --> 01:04:58.480
on the environment that not even young people,

01:04:58.539 --> 01:05:02.699
adults too, that are being enveloped by and its

01:05:02.699 --> 01:05:06.159
influence on extremism and these groups that

01:05:06.159 --> 01:05:09.210
you've worked with? Well, obviously not all white

01:05:09.210 --> 01:05:11.349
people are racist. I mean, I have four kids,

01:05:11.489 --> 01:05:15.369
four boys, you know, white boys with that. They

01:05:15.369 --> 01:05:18.110
hate that. I mean, it's just not true. And especially

01:05:18.110 --> 01:05:20.610
with the way that that they've been raised in

01:05:20.610 --> 01:05:23.110
the communities that we have. I mean, it's just

01:05:23.110 --> 01:05:25.969
not a true statement. And Arizona's 30 percent

01:05:25.969 --> 01:05:28.309
Hispanic. Obviously, you know, our neighbors,

01:05:28.429 --> 01:05:30.730
friends and people that we dearly love are going

01:05:30.730 --> 01:05:33.929
to be Hispanic. So they're not rapists. They're

01:05:33.929 --> 01:05:37.599
good people. Just, you know. I don't mean to

01:05:37.599 --> 01:05:39.800
digress with your question, but when I was in

01:05:39.800 --> 01:05:42.280
grade school, we all loved each other. Because

01:05:42.280 --> 01:05:47.019
at least 30 % of them of my grade school was

01:05:47.019 --> 01:05:50.440
Hispanic and maybe sometimes years more. And

01:05:50.440 --> 01:05:52.300
we liked each other because we liked each other.

01:05:52.360 --> 01:05:54.199
Or we didn't like each other because we didn't

01:05:54.199 --> 01:05:56.280
like each other. But it had nothing to do with

01:05:56.280 --> 01:05:59.420
anything that was outward. It was what we found

01:05:59.420 --> 01:06:02.440
inward. And people get mad at me for saying that,

01:06:02.500 --> 01:06:04.840
but it's still true. It's still true. That's

01:06:04.840 --> 01:06:07.300
how I grew up and that's how so many of us here

01:06:07.300 --> 01:06:11.159
grew up. I think if we're if we're if kids can

01:06:11.159 --> 01:06:13.119
do it, why can't we do it? I feel like people

01:06:13.119 --> 01:06:15.539
have an agenda, you know, for us to all hate

01:06:15.539 --> 01:06:18.380
each other. And that's just not it's not right

01:06:18.380 --> 01:06:20.460
or fair. Well, that's the problem. Kids can do

01:06:20.460 --> 01:06:23.699
it. But as as adults, we're so stuck in our stupidity

01:06:23.699 --> 01:06:26.820
or or whatever it is that we don't want to make

01:06:26.820 --> 01:06:29.320
the changes. And so what what I do is I go back

01:06:29.320 --> 01:06:31.480
and if you if you chain back and look at things,

01:06:31.539 --> 01:06:33.619
who do who do we blame? You know, you got to

01:06:33.619 --> 01:06:38.320
find a source of the problem. And yes, family

01:06:38.320 --> 01:06:42.000
is huge. We need to create families that don't

01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:44.860
teach hate and don't teach, you know, because

01:06:44.860 --> 01:06:47.039
we're white, we're better than you. We need to

01:06:47.039 --> 01:06:49.519
find religions that don't teach that this is

01:06:49.519 --> 01:06:53.440
a white people world. But we also have to and

01:06:53.440 --> 01:06:56.900
I this is like a slippery slope type thing. But

01:06:56.900 --> 01:06:59.280
we also have to elect people in the office who

01:06:59.280 --> 01:07:02.380
aren't going to argue back and forth. across

01:07:02.380 --> 01:07:06.019
this make -believe aisle. And so nothing gets

01:07:06.019 --> 01:07:09.079
done. And then when you have kids and parents

01:07:09.079 --> 01:07:12.500
who watch Fox News or CNN or MSN or whatever

01:07:12.500 --> 01:07:15.460
news outlet they watch, what they're only hearing

01:07:15.460 --> 01:07:18.219
is that one side that that one channel wants

01:07:18.219 --> 01:07:21.039
them to hear. And so you got to flip back all

01:07:21.039 --> 01:07:22.940
over the place to find the truth of what's going

01:07:22.940 --> 01:07:25.860
on. But once the reality is, is once you look

01:07:25.860 --> 01:07:30.070
at it, I'm embarrassed. to some of the things

01:07:30.070 --> 01:07:31.849
I've seen come out of the Senate and Congress,

01:07:32.010 --> 01:07:35.909
the arguing that's going on, the name calling,

01:07:36.269 --> 01:07:39.630
the telling people to shut up during hearings.

01:07:39.730 --> 01:07:43.449
It's ridiculous. And that is what our children

01:07:43.449 --> 01:07:45.690
are seeing. And that is what our children think,

01:07:45.849 --> 01:07:49.170
okay, to solve a problem. I watched Senator so

01:07:49.170 --> 01:07:51.789
-and -so go off on Senator so -and -so. So I'm

01:07:51.789 --> 01:07:54.010
going to go off on the kid on the student council.

01:07:54.150 --> 01:07:57.170
It's like this. He destroyed him. He destroyed

01:07:57.170 --> 01:08:00.590
him. And it's like, and that's not a good thing.

01:08:00.670 --> 01:08:03.809
It's ridiculous. So I think that your question

01:08:03.809 --> 01:08:05.889
was great because it makes you want to look at,

01:08:05.929 --> 01:08:08.670
okay, where's the problem? How can we fix this

01:08:08.670 --> 01:08:12.630
problem? But I think when you're dealing with

01:08:12.630 --> 01:08:17.409
hate, it's a... I think we fix it by starting

01:08:17.409 --> 01:08:20.829
with the families and we have to bring in, you

01:08:20.829 --> 01:08:23.609
know, if somebody is going to join a skin crew

01:08:23.609 --> 01:08:25.789
because they don't feel brotherhood. Okay. Why

01:08:25.789 --> 01:08:27.670
don't you feel brotherhood at home? Why are,

01:08:27.689 --> 01:08:30.329
why are you missing at home? You don't, you didn't

01:08:30.329 --> 01:08:33.109
make the softball or the baseball team. Then

01:08:33.109 --> 01:08:35.970
let's, let's create a place. Like you said, why

01:08:35.970 --> 01:08:39.949
do I need to one team of 30 only playing 15 people

01:08:39.949 --> 01:08:42.529
create another team, which then creates more

01:08:42.529 --> 01:08:45.779
opportunity. And that's what it's all about.

01:08:45.880 --> 01:08:48.159
In order to take somebody out, and it doesn't

01:08:48.159 --> 01:08:50.159
matter, you want to talk black gangs, Hispanic

01:08:50.159 --> 01:08:53.319
gangs, Asian gangs, whatever it is, white groups,

01:08:53.520 --> 01:08:57.140
you pull somebody out, you create a way to pull

01:08:57.140 --> 01:08:59.279
somebody out of that. But once you pull them

01:08:59.279 --> 01:09:01.479
out, you better have something for them to do.

01:09:02.260 --> 01:09:05.479
I do want to say, James, that I feel like we're

01:09:05.479 --> 01:09:07.680
not political people. We haven't really been,

01:09:07.720 --> 01:09:11.039
although we find ourselves in this space a lot.

01:09:11.100 --> 01:09:14.060
But we very much are centrists. in this family

01:09:14.060 --> 01:09:16.340
and i've got because this our families are so

01:09:16.340 --> 01:09:18.840
large i've got extremes on both ends of this

01:09:18.840 --> 01:09:22.340
so but i find that if we can talk about this

01:09:22.340 --> 01:09:24.880
around the dinner table or maybe around a podcast

01:09:24.880 --> 01:09:27.119
like this and actually be open and be allowed

01:09:27.119 --> 01:09:29.420
to speak about some of these things you know

01:09:29.420 --> 01:09:31.319
that's where we're going to find healing if we

01:09:31.319 --> 01:09:33.960
can't find the healing and coming together around

01:09:33.960 --> 01:09:36.619
our own dinner tables how are we ever going to

01:09:36.619 --> 01:09:39.640
heal a nation and i and i gotta just throw this

01:09:39.640 --> 01:09:46.539
out um Skin crews, some of the most violent people

01:09:46.539 --> 01:09:51.239
are female. So it's not just the guy thing. This

01:09:51.239 --> 01:09:54.619
is everything. This is the girls, the skin birds.

01:09:54.880 --> 01:09:58.560
This is the dudes. I mean, we have a lady in

01:09:58.560 --> 01:10:01.859
prison on death row because she wouldn't kill

01:10:01.859 --> 01:10:03.800
the family inside a house in southern Arizona.

01:10:04.840 --> 01:10:09.600
So it's just the way it is. It's not just a white

01:10:09.600 --> 01:10:12.590
boy thing. You know, we have four sons and one

01:10:12.590 --> 01:10:15.670
daughter and we have taught them from the beginning.

01:10:16.069 --> 01:10:19.529
You know, we're not exclusive. Bring people in.

01:10:19.569 --> 01:10:21.649
Let's talk. Let's have conversations. We're all

01:10:21.649 --> 01:10:24.350
in this together. We really are. Absolutely.

01:10:24.729 --> 01:10:27.869
I had a couple of interesting guests. Ron Stallworth

01:10:27.869 --> 01:10:30.210
was on the show that The Black Klansman was written

01:10:30.210 --> 01:10:32.949
about him, which was quite hilarious. I mean,

01:10:32.989 --> 01:10:34.949
they kind of they made it slightly funny in the

01:10:34.949 --> 01:10:37.170
actual film. But the fact that the. clam was

01:10:37.170 --> 01:10:39.109
talking to a black guy the whole time i think

01:10:39.109 --> 01:10:42.189
that the irony is hilarious but then daryl um

01:10:42.189 --> 01:10:46.050
jenkins excuse me he actually in the film skin

01:10:46.050 --> 01:10:48.789
he actually helped um get some people out the

01:10:48.789 --> 01:10:53.029
skinhead gang so people's project say again he

01:10:53.029 --> 01:10:55.750
was with one people's project yes exactly yeah

01:10:55.750 --> 01:10:59.489
yeah yeah he's done great work and and the black

01:10:59.489 --> 01:11:01.890
clansmen they've done great work you know it's

01:11:01.890 --> 01:11:04.770
it's just Tony and Matt aren't the end -all to

01:11:04.770 --> 01:11:07.890
be -all in the white power scene. Oh, it's on

01:11:07.890 --> 01:11:10.609
the backs of giants always. There's a lot of

01:11:10.609 --> 01:11:16.050
people that have created a way for people, not

01:11:16.050 --> 01:11:18.210
just in law enforcement, because Daryl wasn't

01:11:18.210 --> 01:11:22.090
a cop, but he's brought good and he's definitely

01:11:22.090 --> 01:11:26.109
changed the lives of people. Absolutely. Well,

01:11:26.130 --> 01:11:28.689
Daryl, when I asked him, I said about the...

01:11:29.069 --> 01:11:31.609
How bad was it as far as the white power side?

01:11:31.789 --> 01:11:35.149
He was somewhat optimistic about it diminishing.

01:11:35.170 --> 01:11:38.609
What is your perspective on that? I think like

01:11:38.609 --> 01:11:41.989
skin crews, I'd agree. I agree it's changing,

01:11:42.109 --> 01:11:45.649
but the culture is changing, you know, because

01:11:45.649 --> 01:11:48.010
now you've got organizations like Oath Keepers

01:11:48.010 --> 01:11:51.449
or, you know, Proud Boys or whatever it might

01:11:51.449 --> 01:11:55.350
be that they've taken these youngsters got to

01:11:55.350 --> 01:11:57.050
go somewhere. If they're not going to go to prison,

01:11:57.149 --> 01:11:59.439
they got to go somewhere. And so they've joined

01:11:59.439 --> 01:12:02.079
these organizations and like the Proud Boys,

01:12:02.180 --> 01:12:04.100
all the Proud Boys want to do is fight. But why

01:12:04.100 --> 01:12:05.760
do they want to fight? They have all this rage

01:12:05.760 --> 01:12:08.539
and aggression. And a lot of them are going against

01:12:08.539 --> 01:12:11.380
the trans communities, the gay communities, the,

01:12:11.500 --> 01:12:14.220
you know, the Hispanic and black communities.

01:12:14.720 --> 01:12:17.880
And so they're just grown up skinheads. And I

01:12:17.880 --> 01:12:19.640
know that because I know some skins that grew

01:12:19.640 --> 01:12:23.340
up and became Proud Boys. Then you have groups,

01:12:23.420 --> 01:12:28.520
the border militia groups. You have. All these

01:12:28.520 --> 01:12:31.680
different types of organizations that have morphed

01:12:31.680 --> 01:12:35.659
out of groups like the National Alliance or the

01:12:35.659 --> 01:12:38.119
Aryan Nations or National Socialist Movement

01:12:38.119 --> 01:12:41.300
or whatever group, you know, is in your neighborhood

01:12:41.300 --> 01:12:44.359
or community. So they just grow up. So skins,

01:12:44.399 --> 01:12:48.119
yeah, skins will always be there. The skin scene

01:12:48.119 --> 01:12:53.060
is changing. You know, it's just nobody wants

01:12:53.060 --> 01:12:55.890
to go to jail. The white power movement really

01:12:55.890 --> 01:12:58.069
doesn't have a leader to stand up and organize

01:12:58.069 --> 01:13:01.630
everybody. And I always say, you know, it's hard

01:13:01.630 --> 01:13:04.289
to organize a picnic when nobody wants to bring

01:13:04.289 --> 01:13:07.430
the hamburgers. But as they have new leaders

01:13:07.430 --> 01:13:10.729
that come in or perceived leaders, it does embolden

01:13:10.729 --> 01:13:13.329
the entire far right. Because it goes through

01:13:13.329 --> 01:13:16.369
the rhetoric. It all goes back to the rhetoric.

01:13:17.350 --> 01:13:19.210
So if you already have some of these feelings

01:13:19.210 --> 01:13:21.130
and you feel like you have a leader, that's where

01:13:21.130 --> 01:13:23.449
we have seen, you know, that's where the trend

01:13:23.449 --> 01:13:29.109
of it is frightening. It really is. There's that

01:13:29.109 --> 01:13:32.449
term virtue signaling, and I see that on that

01:13:32.449 --> 01:13:35.850
side, this chess beating American flag waving

01:13:35.850 --> 01:13:38.630
with the greatest country in the world. And you

01:13:38.630 --> 01:13:40.989
take a step back like we're not a it's not a

01:13:40.989 --> 01:13:42.789
competition. I know people love to say that,

01:13:42.890 --> 01:13:45.720
but it's not a competition. But B. If you look

01:13:45.720 --> 01:13:48.140
at the fact that we've got 70 % of our country

01:13:48.140 --> 01:13:51.279
is obese or overweight, that we consume 75 %

01:13:51.279 --> 01:13:53.680
of the world's opioids, that we have 25 % of

01:13:53.680 --> 01:13:55.939
the world's incarcerated population, that our

01:13:55.939 --> 01:13:58.199
children have to rehearse their murders in schools

01:13:58.199 --> 01:14:01.180
in America. I think there's a lot of work to

01:14:01.180 --> 01:14:03.640
be done. And I think that's what's so sad. And

01:14:03.640 --> 01:14:06.739
to me, I don't understand why after all these

01:14:06.739 --> 01:14:09.140
years of terrible leadership, that the country

01:14:09.140 --> 01:14:10.899
hasn't come together and saying, why don't we

01:14:10.899 --> 01:14:13.430
change the way we choose these people? They have

01:14:13.430 --> 01:14:15.829
to be billionaires or millionaires and devoid

01:14:15.829 --> 01:14:19.170
of ethics to succeed in this system. So we're

01:14:19.170 --> 01:14:20.869
going to get the same thing. I always tell people

01:14:20.869 --> 01:14:22.729
it's like going into a turd factory and expecting

01:14:22.729 --> 01:14:24.670
a cupcake. You're just going to keep getting

01:14:24.670 --> 01:14:27.470
the turds every four years. Blue tie, red tie,

01:14:27.569 --> 01:14:31.689
blue tie, red tie. So if the country has devolved

01:14:31.689 --> 01:14:33.670
through both sides of the aisle to the point

01:14:33.670 --> 01:14:36.810
where almost three quarters of our country is

01:14:36.810 --> 01:14:40.880
overweight. and or obese and therefore the population

01:14:40.880 --> 01:14:43.439
to pull our first responders and military and

01:14:43.439 --> 01:14:46.020
all these other imperative professions is shrinking

01:14:46.020 --> 01:14:48.520
and our children are getting type 2 diabetes

01:14:48.520 --> 01:14:52.819
you know an unheard of age then clearly the way

01:14:52.819 --> 01:14:55.399
we've done it is not working and you set people

01:14:55.399 --> 01:14:58.000
against each other as a distraction against the

01:14:58.000 --> 01:14:59.619
real things that need to be addressed and the

01:14:59.619 --> 01:15:01.840
violence on our streets is another massive portion

01:15:01.840 --> 01:15:06.439
of this so that massive monologue aside If each

01:15:06.439 --> 01:15:09.720
of you were king or queen for a day, how would

01:15:09.720 --> 01:15:12.500
we change this so we can actually get leaders

01:15:12.500 --> 01:15:14.920
that bring the country back together rather than

01:15:14.920 --> 01:15:19.819
repeatedly divide? You can go first. Well, first

01:15:19.819 --> 01:15:22.659
of all, I got the Thompson twins. If I was king

01:15:22.659 --> 01:15:25.939
for just one day, that's kind of what went through

01:15:25.939 --> 01:15:28.619
my head. So I got to get that. That's a loaded,

01:15:28.680 --> 01:15:30.539
really tough question because, you know, we can

01:15:30.539 --> 01:15:32.359
sit here and complain. But what are you going

01:15:32.359 --> 01:15:34.060
to do about it? That's, you know, kind of what

01:15:34.060 --> 01:15:38.239
I. taught the kids. I feel like we have to start

01:15:38.239 --> 01:15:42.800
at the source and this is going to sound so trite,

01:15:42.800 --> 01:15:45.180
but we do have to get back to loving each other,

01:15:45.260 --> 01:15:48.220
to caring about each other. And so therefore,

01:15:48.319 --> 01:15:51.119
if our leadership actually cares about us, truly

01:15:51.119 --> 01:15:54.350
cares. then those decisions are going to be made

01:15:54.350 --> 01:15:58.229
in more of a pure way and not a transactional

01:15:58.229 --> 01:16:01.989
way. So I think that it just starts with basic

01:16:01.989 --> 01:16:04.789
humanity. Do you love your neighbor? Do you care

01:16:04.789 --> 01:16:10.029
about each other? And I don't mean to be so trite,

01:16:10.090 --> 01:16:13.409
but maybe it's that simple. Maybe it starts within

01:16:13.409 --> 01:16:18.989
us. Well, for sure. See? This is where we, I'm

01:16:18.989 --> 01:16:20.949
like, we got to love each other. And he's like,

01:16:21.029 --> 01:16:23.210
it's not always that simple. No, it is that simple.

01:16:23.350 --> 01:16:26.789
And I can tell you this. Our youngest son played

01:16:26.789 --> 01:16:28.670
on a football team that took state. They were

01:16:28.670 --> 01:16:31.310
state champions. He's a middle linebacker. And

01:16:31.310 --> 01:16:35.729
in the summer camp before the season that they

01:16:35.729 --> 01:16:39.069
took state, the coach pulled everybody together.

01:16:39.810 --> 01:16:43.069
And so the team had. White kids, black kids,

01:16:43.149 --> 01:16:46.050
Jewish kids, Christian kids, a guy from the Ukraine

01:16:46.050 --> 01:16:49.529
or Russia, some Middle Eastern bloc. You know,

01:16:49.550 --> 01:16:51.430
all these different nationalities, all these

01:16:51.430 --> 01:16:53.109
different religions, all these different colored

01:16:53.109 --> 01:16:54.970
kids brought them together in a room and said,

01:16:55.050 --> 01:16:56.909
nobody's leaving this room until you know each

01:16:56.909 --> 01:17:01.689
other. Because how can you fight on a field unless

01:17:01.689 --> 01:17:05.500
you truly know who you're fighting with? And

01:17:05.500 --> 01:17:07.800
so, you know, of course, they they sat in there

01:17:07.800 --> 01:17:09.880
for 20 minutes, everybody joking around, you

01:17:09.880 --> 01:17:11.739
know, making rap songs or whatever they're doing

01:17:11.739 --> 01:17:14.060
and being stupid. The coach come back in and

01:17:14.060 --> 01:17:16.020
came back in and said, I don't think you understood.

01:17:16.699 --> 01:17:19.020
You're not leaving this room until your brothers

01:17:19.020 --> 01:17:21.760
were here for a week. If it takes that long,

01:17:21.880 --> 01:17:24.140
you are not leaving until you know who your teammates

01:17:24.140 --> 01:17:30.159
are. They went on. They lost one game all season

01:17:30.159 --> 01:17:33.180
and they took state. The underdog through a whole

01:17:33.180 --> 01:17:35.960
season and they took state. And it's because

01:17:35.960 --> 01:17:39.039
the coach brought everybody together and said,

01:17:39.100 --> 01:17:41.880
you need to know who you guys are with. And I

01:17:41.880 --> 01:17:44.560
think that's exactly what we need to do. There

01:17:44.560 --> 01:17:47.460
comes a time when we have to say, OK, the politicians

01:17:47.460 --> 01:17:52.079
in office, whatever. But the kids coming up in

01:17:52.079 --> 01:17:55.140
junior high, high school, college, we got to

01:17:55.140 --> 01:17:58.039
get to these kids and say, you guys are the reason

01:17:58.039 --> 01:18:05.100
why. There's hope. You guys are the future. I

01:18:05.100 --> 01:18:07.060
hate saying that. Now I got that Whitney Houston

01:18:07.060 --> 01:18:09.479
song in my head. I believe that children are

01:18:09.479 --> 01:18:14.399
our future. But they truly are. But if you're

01:18:14.399 --> 01:18:17.199
going to be picked on at home, you're going to

01:18:17.199 --> 01:18:19.600
join a gang. If you're not going to get the love

01:18:19.600 --> 01:18:22.520
and support you get at home, you're going to

01:18:22.520 --> 01:18:25.819
do stupid things. And that's where it needs to

01:18:25.819 --> 01:18:29.359
start. In my opinion. And I love that story because...

01:18:29.609 --> 01:18:33.170
It really moved our child, our kid. He had no

01:18:33.170 --> 01:18:35.689
idea what some of these kids had been through.

01:18:35.789 --> 01:18:38.350
And it gave him a different appreciation for

01:18:38.350 --> 01:18:41.109
our home and for us and for the entire community

01:18:41.109 --> 01:18:45.250
around him. And I mean, what a wise coach. And

01:18:45.250 --> 01:18:48.229
that coach cares. That coach showed all those

01:18:48.229 --> 01:18:50.449
boys love. And you know what? He ended up winning.

01:18:52.510 --> 01:18:56.560
We all won. The number of people on the show

01:18:56.560 --> 01:18:58.460
and bearing in mind they've become firefighters,

01:18:58.659 --> 01:19:04.460
cops, Navy SEALs, SAS, whatever, extremely successful

01:19:04.460 --> 01:19:07.819
on that path that they found themselves on. So

01:19:07.819 --> 01:19:10.319
many of them were at a crossroads. And a lot

01:19:10.319 --> 01:19:11.920
of them, like we mentioned earlier, a lot of

01:19:11.920 --> 01:19:14.619
people in uniform had struggles when they were

01:19:14.619 --> 01:19:16.260
younger. Some of them had really bad. There's

01:19:16.260 --> 01:19:19.939
more sexual abuse amongst men in uniform than

01:19:19.939 --> 01:19:22.199
I had any idea until I started doing this podcast.

01:19:22.300 --> 01:19:26.239
So many. But what happened was there was a mentor

01:19:26.239 --> 01:19:29.260
or a few mentors. And so, you know, whether it

01:19:29.260 --> 01:19:31.380
was a female history teacher or a football coach

01:19:31.380 --> 01:19:33.460
or whatever it was that helped them turn that

01:19:33.460 --> 01:19:35.380
corner. I think this is what we've got to understand

01:19:35.380 --> 01:19:39.619
as a community. Of course, ideally in your home,

01:19:39.720 --> 01:19:41.640
you know, the marriage will be intact. You'll

01:19:41.640 --> 01:19:43.619
be loving parents. You'll be present. You'll

01:19:43.619 --> 01:19:46.260
help raise your children. But as we know, you

01:19:46.260 --> 01:19:48.119
know, like my I'm divorced. So my sons had to

01:19:48.119 --> 01:19:50.460
bounce from house to house. There's, you know,

01:19:50.479 --> 01:19:53.100
there's varying levels of security in our home.

01:19:53.199 --> 01:19:55.239
So the next best thing is then to step outside

01:19:55.239 --> 01:19:57.800
your front door and become that mentor in your

01:19:57.800 --> 01:20:00.159
community, whether you're doing a law enforcement

01:20:00.159 --> 01:20:02.220
or fire mentorship program, whether you're just

01:20:02.220 --> 01:20:04.859
helping kids running a volleyball class, you

01:20:04.859 --> 01:20:07.140
know, whatever it is. And I think that's what

01:20:07.140 --> 01:20:09.159
we've got to understand. If you don't become

01:20:09.159 --> 01:20:13.100
the mentor, then the gangbanger or, you know,

01:20:13.100 --> 01:20:15.439
the sexual predator or whoever it is, the people

01:20:15.439 --> 01:20:17.520
from the other side of the fence, they will.

01:20:18.109 --> 01:20:20.250
So just like you said, your kids are going to

01:20:20.250 --> 01:20:23.210
choose a mentor. We can control which mentor

01:20:23.210 --> 01:20:27.369
is put in front of them. I love it. That's so

01:20:27.369 --> 01:20:31.729
true because if you look at cops, and I want

01:20:31.729 --> 01:20:33.609
to be honest with you, you're the first fireman

01:20:33.609 --> 01:20:35.029
that I've ever talked to that I haven't yelled

01:20:35.029 --> 01:20:39.109
at. That's not true. Half of our friends are

01:20:39.109 --> 01:20:42.210
firemen. If I wasn't a cop, I'd be a fireman.

01:20:42.689 --> 01:20:47.109
But, you know, in law enforcement, We walked

01:20:47.109 --> 01:20:50.949
this line. But at some time, I turned right and

01:20:50.949 --> 01:20:53.489
the next guy turned left. And the guy that turned

01:20:53.489 --> 01:20:57.229
left went to prison. But I turned right. Cops

01:20:57.229 --> 01:20:59.869
and cons. Tony says it all the time. Cops and

01:20:59.869 --> 01:21:02.590
cons are so much alike. It's just one choice

01:21:02.590 --> 01:21:04.590
in their life. They went one way or the other.

01:21:04.930 --> 01:21:07.989
Well, I've asked him that. I said, what's the

01:21:07.989 --> 01:21:10.829
difference? And he said, we made one choice at

01:21:10.829 --> 01:21:13.149
a time. You know, that's the only difference.

01:21:13.510 --> 01:21:17.350
And if we can stop the choices. or help people

01:21:17.350 --> 01:21:19.750
choose we can't make happy choices as i tell

01:21:19.750 --> 01:21:22.449
the kids yeah you know you know the happy choices

01:21:22.449 --> 01:21:24.649
get good things sad choices get bad things and

01:21:24.649 --> 01:21:27.310
that's it's simple teaching them from two years

01:21:27.310 --> 01:21:31.010
old one year old but i just spoke to wait rachel

01:21:31.010 --> 01:21:33.550
jeff's this morning she's rachel jeff says warren

01:21:33.550 --> 01:21:36.300
jeff's daughter um we were talking she wanted

01:21:36.300 --> 01:21:38.300
me to help her understand what was going on in

01:21:38.300 --> 01:21:40.460
the world a little bit and she said sometimes

01:21:40.460 --> 01:21:43.220
i think just really good moms would be better

01:21:43.220 --> 01:21:46.520
leaders in our country and i i'm not sure she's

01:21:46.520 --> 01:21:49.380
not right i'm not sure she's wrong i should say

01:21:49.380 --> 01:21:54.039
well but the thing you gotta the in order to

01:21:54.039 --> 01:21:56.960
change things you have to change things which

01:21:56.960 --> 01:21:59.720
means you got to teach and then people need to

01:21:59.720 --> 01:22:01.640
teach and go and do the things that are good

01:22:01.640 --> 01:22:06.489
um I just don't see yelling at people in a Senate

01:22:06.489 --> 01:22:10.390
hearing or anything else is worth. Did you see?

01:22:10.449 --> 01:22:13.390
Are you from the UK? I mean, you can cut this

01:22:13.390 --> 01:22:19.029
out. Yes. Today, the entire parliament was agreeing

01:22:19.029 --> 01:22:22.970
with each other. Oh, really? Yes. It was awesome.

01:22:23.090 --> 01:22:27.010
I was like, what just happened? I mean, how long

01:22:27.010 --> 01:22:30.119
has it been that everyone agreed? agreed with

01:22:30.119 --> 01:22:31.760
something whether you agree with what they're

01:22:31.760 --> 01:22:34.739
agreeing with or not they all agreed together

01:22:34.739 --> 01:22:37.960
though they disagree on certain certain issues

01:22:37.960 --> 01:22:40.659
they came together on this issue and everyone

01:22:40.659 --> 01:22:43.960
i think it was unanimous or close to unanimous

01:22:43.960 --> 01:22:47.680
you know the support and i was like wow what

01:22:47.680 --> 01:22:49.579
can we get done if we actually things that are

01:22:49.579 --> 01:22:51.960
important we can agree upon see if that sends

01:22:51.960 --> 01:22:55.239
a message to everybody we don't we don't have

01:22:55.239 --> 01:22:58.149
to We might have different opinions on things,

01:22:58.250 --> 01:23:00.689
but we can sure work together to come up with

01:23:00.689 --> 01:23:03.449
solutions. And that's what's going on is that

01:23:03.449 --> 01:23:06.930
I think politics has gone so far right and so

01:23:06.930 --> 01:23:10.710
far left to these extremes that they're basically

01:23:10.710 --> 01:23:13.270
meeting the right, the extreme left and extreme

01:23:13.270 --> 01:23:15.649
right are basically the same thing. You know,

01:23:15.649 --> 01:23:17.470
we had a skinhead tell us, if you really want

01:23:17.470 --> 01:23:20.289
to know what skinhead life is like, watch Malcolm

01:23:20.289 --> 01:23:22.960
X. And Matt always says, if you go far enough

01:23:22.960 --> 01:23:24.859
left, you're going to hit the right. And if you

01:23:24.859 --> 01:23:26.260
go far enough, right, you're going to hit the

01:23:26.260 --> 01:23:28.680
left and it becomes the same. It's all the same.

01:23:28.859 --> 01:23:33.359
But, but if as a mom, it'd be, you know, what

01:23:33.359 --> 01:23:35.159
we would tell our kids if they're struggling

01:23:35.159 --> 01:23:37.500
with, with classmates or teammates or whatever,

01:23:37.659 --> 01:23:39.479
it's like, you know what, you're going to have

01:23:39.479 --> 01:23:41.979
to put aside your differences and learn to work

01:23:41.979 --> 01:23:44.479
together. That's what we would tell them. And

01:23:44.479 --> 01:23:48.180
why is it any difference on a larger scale? I

01:23:48.180 --> 01:23:50.720
had Sebastian Junger on the show. He wrote Tribe,

01:23:50.920 --> 01:23:53.899
a book that every single human being should read.

01:23:54.399 --> 01:23:56.859
And in that, he talks about, I think it was the

01:23:56.859 --> 01:24:00.659
Iroquois tribe. And tribe is about tribalism

01:24:00.659 --> 01:24:03.319
and working in the military and then struggling

01:24:03.319 --> 01:24:04.960
when you leave and all that kind of transition

01:24:04.960 --> 01:24:07.840
stuff too. But in the Iroquois, if I've got this

01:24:07.840 --> 01:24:11.399
right, if it's the right tribe, they had a leader

01:24:11.399 --> 01:24:14.439
for peacetime. and a leader for war two different

01:24:14.439 --> 01:24:16.640
ones and i think usually the peacetime leader

01:24:16.640 --> 01:24:20.039
was female and the war time leader was male so

01:24:20.039 --> 01:24:22.699
exactly like you said you've got that kind of

01:24:22.699 --> 01:24:25.880
mother element to keep people together and you

01:24:25.880 --> 01:24:28.319
know caring about their well -being and then

01:24:28.319 --> 01:24:30.760
god forbid you're attacked then maybe there's

01:24:30.760 --> 01:24:32.640
another figure that's going to be a better fit

01:24:32.640 --> 01:24:35.819
for that moment once peace is found again now

01:24:35.819 --> 01:24:37.939
you transition back and i love that idea whether

01:24:37.939 --> 01:24:39.699
it's the same person be able to switch whether

01:24:39.699 --> 01:24:43.939
it's different people You do not need a divisive,

01:24:43.939 --> 01:24:47.460
angry, emotional leader. I'm using air quotes

01:24:47.460 --> 01:24:50.720
because I don't mean the word, you know, in peacetime

01:24:50.720 --> 01:24:55.060
when really the biggest enemy to America is America.

01:24:55.460 --> 01:24:57.420
What we stick in our mouth, the fact that we

01:24:57.420 --> 01:25:00.199
don't move, the way we kill 40 ,000 of us on

01:25:00.199 --> 01:25:02.060
the roads every year and no one bats an eyelid.

01:25:02.539 --> 01:25:05.119
Like, you know, this is peacetime for us. So

01:25:05.119 --> 01:25:07.800
we need that leader that pulls us together. And

01:25:07.800 --> 01:25:10.600
we haven't seen that for decades, in my opinion.

01:25:11.100 --> 01:25:13.460
Well, what did Abe Lincoln say? Abe Lincoln said

01:25:13.460 --> 01:25:17.140
that this country will never fall from outside

01:25:17.140 --> 01:25:20.739
sources. We'll kill ourselves. And how true is

01:25:20.739 --> 01:25:24.159
that? Because whether it's the divisiveness in

01:25:24.159 --> 01:25:28.420
politics, the school shootings, overeating, diabetes,

01:25:28.800 --> 01:25:31.140
whatever it is, we're destroying our own people.

01:25:31.979 --> 01:25:34.439
But I have to say, because I'm squirming not

01:25:34.439 --> 01:25:36.859
saying it, I'm a proud American. I'm so glad

01:25:36.859 --> 01:25:40.420
to be an American. I'm so glad of what we have

01:25:40.420 --> 01:25:43.100
forged, what my grandparents have been a part

01:25:43.100 --> 01:25:48.020
of, what makes us us as a country. And we need

01:25:48.020 --> 01:25:50.640
to stick with each other and with our allies

01:25:50.640 --> 01:25:53.579
and with the people that have shown love and

01:25:53.579 --> 01:25:56.140
continue that, because that's what makes us great

01:25:56.140 --> 01:25:58.220
as we work on the things that aren't working.

01:26:00.470 --> 01:26:02.729
Yeah, well, I think there's nothing more American

01:26:02.729 --> 01:26:06.010
than helping fix America properly. And Americans

01:26:06.010 --> 01:26:08.689
stopping Americans dying, stopping Americans

01:26:08.689 --> 01:26:11.550
suffering. So I think, you know, it's not doom

01:26:11.550 --> 01:26:13.909
and gloom. It's a beautiful country, but it's

01:26:13.909 --> 01:26:17.449
being corrupted and destroyed by, you know, private

01:26:17.449 --> 01:26:19.649
entities that are self -serving. And it's coming

01:26:19.649 --> 01:26:22.029
at the expense of literally millions of American

01:26:22.029 --> 01:26:24.529
lives. I mean, if you can sleep at night and

01:26:24.529 --> 01:26:27.050
you're the head of Philip Morris. or, you know,

01:26:27.050 --> 01:26:29.750
a Purdue farmer that created the opioid crisis,

01:26:29.829 --> 01:26:32.609
then, you know, how do you still even have a

01:26:32.609 --> 01:26:35.170
job? You know, when there's millions of lives,

01:26:35.329 --> 01:26:36.949
you know, literally the blood is on your hands.

01:26:36.949 --> 01:26:40.289
So I think it's a nuanced conversation. But if

01:26:40.289 --> 01:26:44.470
you truly love America, you'll fight to get rid

01:26:44.470 --> 01:26:46.369
of the things that are taking our lives and making

01:26:46.369 --> 01:26:49.770
people suffer. And I hate to put it back on the

01:26:49.770 --> 01:26:53.130
white power movement, but you have to have, in

01:26:53.130 --> 01:26:55.890
order for the white power movement, To gain steam

01:26:55.890 --> 01:26:58.329
and momentum, they have to have a leader. Somebody

01:26:58.329 --> 01:27:00.810
will stand up and take the heat, take the lawsuits,

01:27:01.090 --> 01:27:04.430
take whatever comes their way. And I think that's

01:27:04.430 --> 01:27:07.010
how it is for Americans. Who's going to stand

01:27:07.010 --> 01:27:09.510
up and fight big pharma? Who's going to stand

01:27:09.510 --> 01:27:12.590
up and fight against, you know, be able to stand

01:27:12.590 --> 01:27:15.569
in the middle and hear both left and right and

01:27:15.569 --> 01:27:18.470
make decisions based on everything coming together

01:27:18.470 --> 01:27:21.090
and not just get yelled at and say, okay, well,

01:27:21.170 --> 01:27:22.850
who's going to make me more millions when I get

01:27:22.850 --> 01:27:25.399
out of here? You know, and that's we need leadership.

01:27:25.560 --> 01:27:28.020
We need people who can do that. And when you

01:27:28.020 --> 01:27:30.220
know something, I just keep wanting to I want

01:27:30.220 --> 01:27:32.340
everyone to know that there is something they

01:27:32.340 --> 01:27:35.239
can do. When you you may find yourself in this

01:27:35.239 --> 01:27:37.960
position to fight like I was to fight hate. That's

01:27:37.960 --> 01:27:41.180
crazy. Never, ever in my entire world would that

01:27:41.180 --> 01:27:43.319
have been something that I thought, you know,

01:27:43.319 --> 01:27:45.699
would happen in my life. You might find yourself

01:27:45.699 --> 01:27:48.819
in that place. You might find yourself as a mentor

01:27:48.819 --> 01:27:51.640
for kids. But when you see something, you do

01:27:51.640 --> 01:27:54.189
something. every single time and when you know

01:27:54.189 --> 01:27:56.750
something you do something so if you're big pharma

01:27:56.750 --> 01:27:58.609
and you know what's going on you do something

01:27:58.609 --> 01:28:03.590
it's it can be so big or little and it all propels

01:28:03.590 --> 01:28:06.229
us in the way we want to go into greatness so

01:28:06.229 --> 01:28:08.670
i feel like i'm just sounding so trite but i

01:28:08.670 --> 01:28:10.909
really i know it works i've seen it work in my

01:28:10.909 --> 01:28:12.529
own community and i've seen it work in my own

01:28:12.529 --> 01:28:14.689
life it's if you know something you do something

01:28:14.689 --> 01:28:18.109
i want to put one other question and then we'll

01:28:18.109 --> 01:28:21.329
kind of um shift a little bit but while we're

01:28:21.329 --> 01:28:25.250
talking about gangs as a first responder as a

01:28:25.250 --> 01:28:27.869
firefighter and a paramedic i have watched firsthand

01:28:27.869 --> 01:28:30.930
the ripple effect of drug prohibition you know

01:28:30.930 --> 01:28:33.949
the the overdoses the the homelessness the sex

01:28:33.949 --> 01:28:36.630
workers i mean all the things that are the fingers

01:28:36.630 --> 01:28:39.590
of of the the crimes that come out of that you

01:28:39.590 --> 01:28:43.289
know failed system And I had multiple people

01:28:43.289 --> 01:28:45.590
on the show, but I went to Portugal and interviewed

01:28:45.590 --> 01:28:48.770
the man who spearheaded the decriminalization

01:28:48.770 --> 01:28:52.390
of addiction in Portugal. They freed up all their

01:28:52.390 --> 01:28:55.310
resources to hunt the dealers and the smugglers.

01:28:55.489 --> 01:28:58.430
And they went from the worst addiction. I think

01:28:58.430 --> 01:29:00.529
I've got to look this up. I always say this either

01:29:00.529 --> 01:29:02.909
in Europe or in the world, the worst, the worst

01:29:02.909 --> 01:29:06.409
addiction to the lowest in less than 10 years,

01:29:06.470 --> 01:29:08.739
because what they did, they took the. war on

01:29:08.739 --> 01:29:11.579
drugs money, and they put a lot of it into addiction

01:29:11.579 --> 01:29:14.260
counseling, mental health counseling, job creation,

01:29:14.659 --> 01:29:17.500
housing, and they couldn't get everyone. And

01:29:17.500 --> 01:29:19.460
this is this absolutist mentality some people

01:29:19.460 --> 01:29:21.079
have, you know, they always point at the failures,

01:29:21.100 --> 01:29:24.420
but a huge part of the, you know, the addicted

01:29:24.420 --> 01:29:26.500
population, they got them back on their feet,

01:29:26.539 --> 01:29:28.039
they got them working, they got them housed,

01:29:28.100 --> 01:29:29.880
and they got them functioning in society again.

01:29:30.720 --> 01:29:34.340
When I look at The root cause of all this violence

01:29:34.340 --> 01:29:36.239
and destruction and death that I've seen in my

01:29:36.239 --> 01:29:38.979
career, a lot of it comes from addiction and

01:29:38.979 --> 01:29:41.340
driving these addicts into the hands of the underworld.

01:29:41.520 --> 01:29:43.399
And you look at the border, you know, the empowerment

01:29:43.399 --> 01:29:45.460
of the cartels, a lot of that comes from us,

01:29:45.479 --> 01:29:50.260
the consumer. What is your perception on the

01:29:50.260 --> 01:29:53.039
prohibition when it comes to the addict? Again,

01:29:53.100 --> 01:29:54.539
I'm not talking about selling. I'm not talking

01:29:54.539 --> 01:29:58.300
about smuggling, but addiction and what you've

01:29:58.300 --> 01:30:02.119
seen. Would you change anything? And in some

01:30:02.119 --> 01:30:03.539
of these different models that we've seen around

01:30:03.539 --> 01:30:08.760
the world. Oh, I changed things 100%. Somebody's

01:30:08.760 --> 01:30:11.659
addicted to something, whether it's sex, drugs,

01:30:11.939 --> 01:30:15.340
gambling, whatever it might be, alcohol, for

01:30:15.340 --> 01:30:19.140
a reason. So I think addiction goes hand in hand

01:30:19.140 --> 01:30:21.340
with mental health. And I think the mental health

01:30:21.340 --> 01:30:23.699
situation that we're in in this country needs

01:30:23.699 --> 01:30:27.420
to be helped too. Those are the sources of some

01:30:27.420 --> 01:30:31.670
of these problems. First responder to first responder.

01:30:32.550 --> 01:30:35.909
We know people that whether they're firemen or

01:30:35.909 --> 01:30:38.170
police officers who are addicted to some substance

01:30:38.170 --> 01:30:40.689
because of traumas that they've seen and dealt

01:30:40.689 --> 01:30:43.590
with that they're not taken care of. Why would

01:30:43.590 --> 01:30:46.149
that be any different for some guy on the street

01:30:46.149 --> 01:30:49.649
who's now homeless, spun up on something because

01:30:49.649 --> 01:30:52.109
he's dealing with something inside? And that's

01:30:52.109 --> 01:30:54.550
what needs to be fixed. I believe, you know,

01:30:54.550 --> 01:30:57.409
we fix the problem that takes away everything

01:30:57.409 --> 01:31:00.479
else. Yes, we need to stop the. the drugs coming

01:31:00.479 --> 01:31:03.140
into the country. We need to, you know, do something

01:31:03.140 --> 01:31:05.079
about the cartels. We need to do all this stuff,

01:31:05.199 --> 01:31:07.699
but we need to do mental health stuff first.

01:31:08.220 --> 01:31:11.420
I think. Mate, you've always been so tough on

01:31:11.420 --> 01:31:14.460
the criminal on, on crime and the worth of every

01:31:14.460 --> 01:31:17.720
soul is great. It truly is. And we do need to

01:31:17.720 --> 01:31:20.439
be tough on crime. So, but what is the source

01:31:20.439 --> 01:31:23.279
of the crime? Just like what you're saying. I

01:31:23.279 --> 01:31:25.560
just think even from a supply and demand point

01:31:25.560 --> 01:31:30.399
of view, if you actually, took the addicts into

01:31:30.399 --> 01:31:33.560
the medical world. So what happened in Portugal

01:31:33.560 --> 01:31:35.380
is when you take away the stigma and the fear

01:31:35.380 --> 01:31:37.600
of being arrested and now having a criminal record,

01:31:37.619 --> 01:31:39.140
and now it's even harder to find employment,

01:31:39.420 --> 01:31:42.960
you take all that away. A lot of addicts came

01:31:42.960 --> 01:31:45.079
and they asked for help because when, when they're

01:31:45.079 --> 01:31:47.220
detained, they're just given an interview. They're

01:31:47.220 --> 01:31:50.100
not even actually arrested per se. They're educated

01:31:50.100 --> 01:31:52.399
on what the resources that are available to them.

01:31:52.640 --> 01:31:54.720
And a lot of them will be like, yeah, actually

01:31:54.720 --> 01:31:57.920
I do need help. And they've seen that. So this

01:31:57.920 --> 01:31:59.720
is what's beautiful. But if you think about supply

01:31:59.720 --> 01:32:02.699
and demand, if the addicts now don't have to

01:32:02.699 --> 01:32:04.739
lean into the underworld, what does that do to

01:32:04.739 --> 01:32:07.380
that entire trade? It weakens it dramatically.

01:32:07.960 --> 01:32:10.239
And even the cartels, oh, well, they'll just

01:32:10.239 --> 01:32:12.479
do avocados or human trafficking. Yeah, but it

01:32:12.479 --> 01:32:15.140
will weaken it dramatically. It will start pushing

01:32:15.140 --> 01:32:17.800
it the other way. And even the immigration problem,

01:32:17.979 --> 01:32:21.560
if you can help make Mexico safer, you will have

01:32:21.560 --> 01:32:23.680
few people trying to escape that country and

01:32:23.680 --> 01:32:25.609
coming here. And, you know, it's a beautiful

01:32:25.609 --> 01:32:27.569
country to come. I came from England. If they

01:32:27.569 --> 01:32:28.789
want to come here, they should be able to come

01:32:28.789 --> 01:32:31.010
here. But, you know, again, through the legal

01:32:31.010 --> 01:32:33.710
route. But how many people in Mexico would have

01:32:33.710 --> 01:32:36.149
stayed had it been an environment that was safe

01:32:36.149 --> 01:32:39.510
for their family? So I think. Please. Yeah, that's

01:32:39.510 --> 01:32:42.430
why that's why you need to. It's just not. Venezuela,

01:32:42.989 --> 01:32:45.369
everywhere they're coming from. It's just it's

01:32:45.369 --> 01:32:48.470
not a cartel problem. You know, now you're talking

01:32:48.470 --> 01:32:54.060
politics and and and. In working with, we'll

01:32:54.060 --> 01:32:56.180
just use Mexico. I love Mexico. Mexico is beautiful.

01:32:56.760 --> 01:32:59.600
We love going down to Mexico. And it's working

01:32:59.600 --> 01:33:03.180
with the politicians in Mexico so we can understand

01:33:03.180 --> 01:33:05.460
each other. Everything starts with communication.

01:33:06.159 --> 01:33:07.739
We can understand. We don't need to go up and

01:33:07.739 --> 01:33:10.000
say, hey, we're going to blow up all the cartels

01:33:10.000 --> 01:33:11.439
and then we're going to build a wall and then

01:33:11.439 --> 01:33:13.060
we're going to stop everybody from coming in

01:33:13.060 --> 01:33:15.220
and then we're going to do this and this. That's

01:33:15.220 --> 01:33:18.039
not fixing the problem. You have to understand

01:33:18.039 --> 01:33:21.600
what the problem is and where it starts and how

01:33:21.600 --> 01:33:24.420
we can help you combat this problem. And that's

01:33:24.420 --> 01:33:26.180
the only way things are going to get done. I

01:33:26.180 --> 01:33:29.920
firmly believe it. How is law enforcement going

01:33:29.920 --> 01:33:33.380
to be healthy? Deal with your crap. But how do

01:33:33.380 --> 01:33:35.600
we deal with our crap when we come out and say,

01:33:35.659 --> 01:33:37.439
I have a problem, and then they take my gun and

01:33:37.439 --> 01:33:40.159
my badge and stick me in a basement? That makes

01:33:40.159 --> 01:33:42.319
the problem worse, so nobody's going to come

01:33:42.319 --> 01:33:46.399
forward then. So James, are you saying we make

01:33:46.399 --> 01:33:50.500
it safe for people to say I need help? Yeah,

01:33:50.560 --> 01:33:54.600
you decriminalize being an addict. So I'm in

01:33:54.600 --> 01:33:57.739
pain. I use this substance in this case, but

01:33:57.739 --> 01:33:59.180
I mean, it could, like you said, be alcohol.

01:33:59.399 --> 01:34:01.760
I mean, we know that, you know, alcoholism is

01:34:01.760 --> 01:34:04.260
a huge issue in fire and police. I've lost three

01:34:04.260 --> 01:34:07.399
firefighter friends to opioid overdoses. So that's

01:34:07.399 --> 01:34:09.800
in our profession. So it's kind of ironic that

01:34:09.800 --> 01:34:13.250
there's pushback from certain groups. But yeah,

01:34:13.329 --> 01:34:17.010
so if you are struggling with an addiction, you

01:34:17.010 --> 01:34:19.409
immediately are given these resources. You are,

01:34:19.409 --> 01:34:22.229
you are, you know, enveloped by the medical world

01:34:22.229 --> 01:34:26.310
and you're given, you know, everything from got

01:34:26.310 --> 01:34:29.210
a blanket on that, that methadone, you know,

01:34:29.210 --> 01:34:30.810
there's methadone, there's all these things,

01:34:30.850 --> 01:34:32.869
whatever it takes for you to get on that path.

01:34:32.970 --> 01:34:35.770
But we all know that the root cause of addiction

01:34:35.770 --> 01:34:38.960
is trauma. and probably earlier in your life.

01:34:39.140 --> 01:34:41.340
So with the whole princess and the pea analogy,

01:34:41.579 --> 01:34:43.819
if you can't find that pea under that mattress,

01:34:44.079 --> 01:34:46.100
it doesn't matter how many mattresses you put

01:34:46.100 --> 01:34:49.399
up, it's still going to be there. So what they

01:34:49.399 --> 01:34:51.920
realize is if you take these people, they now

01:34:51.920 --> 01:34:54.000
want to get help, which we all know is a big

01:34:54.000 --> 01:34:56.680
part of this conversation. You can't get help

01:34:56.680 --> 01:35:00.239
until you're ready to receive it. But then they're

01:35:00.239 --> 01:35:02.300
given all these resources and there are still

01:35:02.300 --> 01:35:05.159
addicts in Portugal that still, all they're given

01:35:05.159 --> 01:35:07.920
is kind of safe injection sites. Um, there's

01:35:07.920 --> 01:35:09.939
places where addicts can go in and, you know,

01:35:09.939 --> 01:35:13.279
have their fix under, you know, under medical

01:35:13.279 --> 01:35:15.880
supervision. So they're not dying in some alley

01:35:15.880 --> 01:35:18.399
somewhere as well, but there's so many of them

01:35:18.399 --> 01:35:21.539
that got rid of that addiction and now they're

01:35:21.539 --> 01:35:24.520
functioning really well in Portugal. So you look

01:35:24.520 --> 01:35:26.260
at Portugal, you look at, I think Switzerland

01:35:26.260 --> 01:35:28.380
has a similar program. There's some other places,

01:35:28.399 --> 01:35:30.260
one in South America that's doing really well.

01:35:30.739 --> 01:35:33.159
This is happening. This is working in certain

01:35:33.159 --> 01:35:36.069
countries around the world. And so to me, if

01:35:36.069 --> 01:35:38.970
you're going to lean into, you know, Mormonism

01:35:38.970 --> 01:35:41.890
or Christianity or Buddhism or, you know, whatever

01:35:41.890 --> 01:35:44.869
your doctrine, all those prophets were amongst

01:35:44.869 --> 01:35:46.829
the people trying to help them with their pain

01:35:46.829 --> 01:35:49.970
and suffering. Yet we have this bizarre, you

01:35:49.970 --> 01:35:53.970
know, compassionless view of addiction. And it

01:35:53.970 --> 01:35:56.569
all comes from the origin story of the prohibition

01:35:56.569 --> 01:36:00.210
comes from job justification and racism. If you

01:36:00.210 --> 01:36:04.199
look at who Harry Enslinger was. I think it's

01:36:04.199 --> 01:36:06.699
Anslinger. I think I've got his first name right

01:36:06.699 --> 01:36:09.960
or wrong. But it was he was coming off the back

01:36:09.960 --> 01:36:12.539
end of the absolute failure of alcohol prohibition.

01:36:12.659 --> 01:36:15.500
He was now put in that position and he was the

01:36:15.500 --> 01:36:17.380
one behind reefer madness and all that stuff.

01:36:17.739 --> 01:36:20.939
So almost 100 year longitudinal study. We know

01:36:20.939 --> 01:36:22.539
it doesn't work because our streets have got

01:36:22.539 --> 01:36:26.260
more and more dangerous. So now there's no better

01:36:26.260 --> 01:36:28.479
time, in my opinion, to actually look at a more

01:36:28.479 --> 01:36:30.880
altruistic model that's worked in other countries.

01:36:31.579 --> 01:36:33.840
and start cutting the head off the snake by taking

01:36:33.840 --> 01:36:35.680
the addicts back into the medical community.

01:36:37.960 --> 01:36:41.699
Interesting. As long as, I mean, in order to

01:36:41.699 --> 01:36:43.380
do all that, you got to take the stigma away.

01:36:44.340 --> 01:36:47.180
You know, the embarrassment factor, the shaming,

01:36:47.300 --> 01:36:50.399
everything that comes from being an addict. And

01:36:50.399 --> 01:36:56.100
it's, you know, it's sad. It really is sad. And

01:36:56.100 --> 01:36:59.130
I think that we as a people, as long as... As

01:36:59.130 --> 01:37:02.829
long as it's not affecting my family or me. You

01:37:02.829 --> 01:37:04.329
know, unfortunately, that's how people think.

01:37:04.789 --> 01:37:07.710
And you just got to change that. Yeah, I would

01:37:07.710 --> 01:37:09.470
like to get to the addicts before they become

01:37:09.470 --> 01:37:12.850
addicts. I mean, of course, that's like my Pollyanna

01:37:12.850 --> 01:37:15.390
view of things so often. But how do we stop it

01:37:15.390 --> 01:37:18.109
before it even starts? It's so much easier, I

01:37:18.109 --> 01:37:20.869
think, to get in front of it than it is to fix

01:37:20.869 --> 01:37:23.689
it. It's just like gangs, though. I want to stop

01:37:23.689 --> 01:37:26.979
gang members from becoming gang members. So how

01:37:26.979 --> 01:37:28.779
do we stop a kid from wanting to be in a gang?

01:37:29.000 --> 01:37:31.000
Probably the same way we stop a kid from wanting

01:37:31.000 --> 01:37:33.119
to be an addict. There's something missing. There's

01:37:33.119 --> 01:37:35.260
something pushing. There's something drawing

01:37:35.260 --> 01:37:37.800
them into that life. So how do we get them out

01:37:37.800 --> 01:37:41.500
of that life? So maybe with addictions and with

01:37:41.500 --> 01:37:44.819
gangs, we're dealing with the same thing. One

01:37:44.819 --> 01:37:47.840
person chooses a gang. The other person chooses

01:37:47.840 --> 01:37:50.760
smoking weed, then turning into heroin, then

01:37:50.760 --> 01:37:53.680
whatever else it is. And so maybe we just need

01:37:53.680 --> 01:37:58.199
to focus on. And it goes back to families and

01:37:58.199 --> 01:38:02.119
schools, families and coaches, families and athletics.

01:38:02.260 --> 01:38:04.819
And taking care of your own as much as you can,

01:38:04.819 --> 01:38:06.739
too. And I know that that's not always, you know,

01:38:06.779 --> 01:38:10.399
that's another Pollyanna way, but it's hard.

01:38:10.520 --> 01:38:12.800
I mean, it's hard to be a parent. There's so

01:38:12.800 --> 01:38:15.279
many fails and so many successes that we've had

01:38:15.279 --> 01:38:17.500
as parents. But I would hate for anyone to think

01:38:17.500 --> 01:38:21.359
that that's just an easy thing to do. I think

01:38:21.359 --> 01:38:22.939
we've been a little bit honest about some of

01:38:22.939 --> 01:38:25.140
our things today, but, you know. But they're

01:38:25.140 --> 01:38:28.979
good, good kids. They're normal kids. Well, I

01:38:28.979 --> 01:38:30.619
mean, you're talking about getting them before

01:38:30.619 --> 01:38:32.539
they become an addict or a gang member. I think,

01:38:32.539 --> 01:38:35.119
you know, there's that very kind of ivory tower

01:38:35.119 --> 01:38:39.140
conversation about, you know, addiction and some

01:38:39.140 --> 01:38:40.819
of these other things. Well, it's because these

01:38:40.819 --> 01:38:43.000
broken homes. Well, yeah, that's what addiction

01:38:43.000 --> 01:38:46.699
does. It destroys homes. So I think the way that

01:38:46.699 --> 01:38:48.659
you get to the kids is you've got to. You've

01:38:48.659 --> 01:38:50.439
got to try and heal the parents. So that that

01:38:50.439 --> 01:38:52.699
I think is what's beautiful about this model

01:38:52.699 --> 01:38:54.979
was initially, yeah, it's going to take all hands.

01:38:55.159 --> 01:38:57.739
A lot of people that are in pain. But imagine

01:38:57.739 --> 01:38:59.899
the next generation. Now you've put some of these

01:38:59.899 --> 01:39:01.939
households back together again and you put more

01:39:01.939 --> 01:39:05.000
mentors in the community. The need to fight addiction

01:39:05.000 --> 01:39:08.039
20 years from now would be a fraction of what

01:39:08.039 --> 01:39:09.739
we need to do at the moment. So it would be a

01:39:09.739 --> 01:39:13.579
long term investment in our country. Oh, I just

01:39:13.579 --> 01:39:16.460
love that so much. Where do I sign up for that?

01:39:16.739 --> 01:39:21.539
I mean, that is just like, that's healing. We

01:39:21.539 --> 01:39:24.859
just have to stop the arguing in D .C. to get

01:39:24.859 --> 01:39:26.720
people really talking about things that matter

01:39:26.720 --> 01:39:30.199
like this. We're not arguing about anything.

01:39:30.359 --> 01:39:32.260
We're having a conversation. How can we protect

01:39:32.260 --> 01:39:35.239
our kids? How can we protect our communities,

01:39:35.319 --> 01:39:38.020
this country? And this is how. Take out trauma.

01:39:38.520 --> 01:39:41.119
You take the trauma, you take out addiction.

01:39:41.600 --> 01:39:43.539
But we all have childhood trauma. I mean, we're

01:39:43.539 --> 01:39:45.859
all and it all it creates drama in all of our

01:39:45.859 --> 01:39:48.899
lives. But it's like it's just really it's showing

01:39:48.899 --> 01:39:51.239
up for each other. We're like my trauma is not

01:39:51.239 --> 01:39:53.239
like your trauma. And so I can help you through.

01:39:53.319 --> 01:39:55.960
I mean, it really is just it's that we keep going

01:39:55.960 --> 01:39:59.420
back to this kumbaya type feeling. But is it

01:39:59.420 --> 01:40:02.439
really? I think we might be making these problems

01:40:02.439 --> 01:40:04.939
much bigger than they actually are. The solution

01:40:04.939 --> 01:40:07.829
might be that simple. Absolutely. We just look

01:40:07.829 --> 01:40:10.270
at how we used to be. We were small communities,

01:40:10.550 --> 01:40:12.930
you know, and so we would talk about our traumas.

01:40:12.930 --> 01:40:14.390
You know, I'm not saying that everything was

01:40:14.390 --> 01:40:16.090
perfect and everyone talks about everything,

01:40:16.189 --> 01:40:18.829
but you would have the ability to offload. I

01:40:18.829 --> 01:40:20.449
mean, look at even historically, you know, when

01:40:20.449 --> 01:40:22.630
warriors come home from war, you know, the war

01:40:22.630 --> 01:40:26.189
dances and, you know, the kind of campfires and

01:40:26.189 --> 01:40:28.569
storytelling and everything. That was what we

01:40:28.569 --> 01:40:30.430
have done as a species for the longest time.

01:40:30.489 --> 01:40:32.949
And now, you know, we've got cities with millions

01:40:32.949 --> 01:40:37.359
of people. That within some people feel so alone

01:40:37.359 --> 01:40:39.000
and depressed that they take their own lives

01:40:39.000 --> 01:40:41.979
surrounded by 10 million other people. It's just

01:40:41.979 --> 01:40:44.439
it's so backwards. So we've lost community, even

01:40:44.439 --> 01:40:48.359
though we've swollen in numbers. Oh, for sure.

01:40:48.800 --> 01:40:53.189
Yeah. All right. Well, speaking. I feel like

01:40:53.189 --> 01:40:54.729
all this stuff is like, well, what am I supposed

01:40:54.729 --> 01:40:56.609
to do? Well, you're supposed to love each other.

01:40:56.710 --> 01:40:58.649
Really, it really does come down to loving your

01:40:58.649 --> 01:41:00.369
neighbor. You can do that. There's something

01:41:00.369 --> 01:41:03.010
that we can all do if it's even just a smile

01:41:03.010 --> 01:41:05.710
to somebody. I mean, that starts changing a trajectory

01:41:05.710 --> 01:41:08.590
of a lot of different, even inside yourself,

01:41:08.829 --> 01:41:12.029
it starts to change. You know, it's just, I just

01:41:12.029 --> 01:41:14.829
get so like, I can get bogged down with all of

01:41:14.829 --> 01:41:16.310
these thoughts and things that you're saying.

01:41:16.430 --> 01:41:18.250
And it's like, well, what can I do? Well, you

01:41:18.250 --> 01:41:22.530
can do a lot. You really can do a lot. Absolutely.

01:41:22.530 --> 01:41:24.550
Well, I want to get to your book just before

01:41:24.550 --> 01:41:26.210
we do, though, we're talking about families.

01:41:27.609 --> 01:41:31.710
I think one of the unsung heroes of the first

01:41:31.710 --> 01:41:33.890
responder communities are the families. You know,

01:41:33.909 --> 01:41:35.789
they're the ones that are left alone while we're

01:41:35.789 --> 01:41:39.050
out doing what we're doing. Talk to me about

01:41:39.050 --> 01:41:42.250
the kind of through line. as far as the impact

01:41:42.250 --> 01:41:46.010
of what Matt was doing on you and the kids and

01:41:46.010 --> 01:41:48.250
how you were able to kind of mitigate some of

01:41:48.250 --> 01:41:50.449
those issues that will actually break up families

01:41:50.449 --> 01:41:53.890
in some situations? You know what? First of all,

01:41:53.909 --> 01:41:57.609
I had someone say, Matt always says, Tani brought

01:41:57.609 --> 01:42:00.170
me back. She brought me back. But a really wise

01:42:00.170 --> 01:42:03.970
man said, you wanted to be brought back. So I

01:42:03.970 --> 01:42:06.729
really think that it takes, it wasn't me, it

01:42:06.729 --> 01:42:10.090
wasn't him, it was us and the dynamic that we

01:42:10.090 --> 01:42:13.350
had. And I don't, we're not any different than

01:42:13.350 --> 01:42:15.189
anybody else. It just happened to be that we

01:42:15.189 --> 01:42:17.609
both wanted, family was very, very important.

01:42:19.529 --> 01:42:21.890
But I stopped, I mean, I don't know that everyone

01:42:21.890 --> 01:42:24.329
can do this, but I stopped working. If he wasn't

01:42:24.329 --> 01:42:28.489
home, if he worked so much. that i knew that

01:42:28.489 --> 01:42:30.189
if i was going to raise the kind of family that

01:42:30.189 --> 01:42:32.350
i wanted to i needed to be home with the kids

01:42:32.350 --> 01:42:35.810
so i started doing things at home teaching voice

01:42:35.810 --> 01:42:39.149
lessons and violin and piano that kind of stuff

01:42:39.149 --> 01:42:40.770
things that i could do in the home and still

01:42:40.770 --> 01:42:44.189
be with my kids so we that's not necessarily

01:42:44.189 --> 01:42:46.970
the answer but we did put the kids first so i

01:42:46.970 --> 01:42:50.329
think that that that was one of the things we

01:42:50.329 --> 01:42:52.989
did i got to interrupt real quick because this

01:42:52.989 --> 01:42:57.079
is important um out of our five kids We have

01:42:57.079 --> 01:43:00.680
a son who is a mechanical engineer who owns two

01:43:00.680 --> 01:43:03.920
or three companies. We have another son who is

01:43:03.920 --> 01:43:06.439
going through finishing his residency for med

01:43:06.439 --> 01:43:09.439
school, and he's going to be a pediatrician.

01:43:09.439 --> 01:43:11.840
We have another son who's playing football in

01:43:11.840 --> 01:43:14.779
Montana who wants to be a psychologist. We have

01:43:14.779 --> 01:43:18.520
a daughter who works for an international...

01:43:19.920 --> 01:43:22.720
company in their marketing department and we

01:43:22.720 --> 01:43:24.520
have another son who's going to be finishing

01:43:24.520 --> 01:43:26.760
his four -year degree at another he's still trying

01:43:26.760 --> 01:43:29.060
to figure out what he's doing but he's but he's

01:43:29.060 --> 01:43:31.579
in school he's played football and and and he's

01:43:31.579 --> 01:43:34.079
figuring it out all this comes from one thing

01:43:34.079 --> 01:43:36.699
what's the common source and all this i was gone

01:43:36.699 --> 01:43:40.739
a lot you know and even when i was here i wasn't

01:43:40.739 --> 01:43:46.560
here uh the common source is is is tony And I

01:43:46.560 --> 01:43:49.079
will say it until I'm blue in the face or until

01:43:49.079 --> 01:43:52.659
I'm dead and gone, that Tawny was the glue that

01:43:52.659 --> 01:43:55.260
kept this family together. She's the glue that

01:43:55.260 --> 01:43:57.619
helped me when I was doing my undercover work,

01:43:57.739 --> 01:44:02.340
brought me back saying, Matt, no, those are our

01:44:02.340 --> 01:44:05.199
friends. They are our neighbors. Those are good

01:44:05.199 --> 01:44:08.939
people. She's the one who helped the kids get

01:44:08.939 --> 01:44:12.079
their ran for student government or whatever

01:44:12.079 --> 01:44:15.289
it might be. But she's the driving force that

01:44:15.289 --> 01:44:18.350
get these kids in school because I just came

01:44:18.350 --> 01:44:24.789
home and wanted to disappear. How did you punctuate

01:44:24.789 --> 01:44:28.229
between at work and at home? Because I know for

01:44:28.229 --> 01:44:30.449
us, you know, 24 hours at a time, we might have

01:44:30.449 --> 01:44:32.829
been cutting a dead kid out of a car at 4 a .m.

01:44:32.829 --> 01:44:34.529
And then you're walking through his dad at, you

01:44:34.529 --> 01:44:38.289
know, nine. How were you able to kind of separate

01:44:38.289 --> 01:44:40.819
the two? And then what were. you know coping

01:44:40.819 --> 01:44:43.300
mechanisms or tools that you use to help you

01:44:43.300 --> 01:44:46.140
be able to process it well that that's the problem

01:44:46.140 --> 01:44:50.220
sorry no i james i i didn't i if i had to do

01:44:50.220 --> 01:44:52.760
it again i'm not sure even though you know we're

01:44:52.760 --> 01:44:54.520
looking back on it i'm not sure i would have

01:44:54.520 --> 01:44:56.420
done it the same way or that i would tell somebody

01:44:56.420 --> 01:44:58.279
else to do it i didn't know what we were doing

01:44:58.279 --> 01:45:00.720
i just knew that my husband was not coming home

01:45:00.720 --> 01:45:03.720
as the man that i needed him to be you know that

01:45:04.240 --> 01:45:07.020
for the children and for me and for everything

01:45:07.020 --> 01:45:10.180
that we had hoped and dreamed to do. So I just

01:45:10.180 --> 01:45:13.779
started, I don't, I just, I don't know what we

01:45:13.779 --> 01:45:16.239
did except for, we just kept, we just kept loving

01:45:16.239 --> 01:45:18.680
each other. And then he would say things to me

01:45:18.680 --> 01:45:21.460
like, you don't understand. And I would say,

01:45:21.539 --> 01:45:23.619
and it's a good thing. I don't understand because

01:45:23.619 --> 01:45:26.539
this is wacky. You know, it's a good thing that

01:45:26.539 --> 01:45:28.439
I don't get whatever it is that you're supposed

01:45:28.439 --> 01:45:30.739
to be understanding because it's not reality.

01:45:31.449 --> 01:45:33.689
So I think we had those kinds of conversations

01:45:33.689 --> 01:45:37.590
a lot. If he was outside, I knew that if he took

01:45:37.590 --> 01:45:40.010
a long time to, once his car pulled up, if it

01:45:40.010 --> 01:45:42.869
was a while before he came in, I knew that he

01:45:42.869 --> 01:45:46.489
probably had had struggled that day. And so I'd

01:45:46.489 --> 01:45:48.949
bring a baby out, you know, something that I

01:45:48.949 --> 01:45:52.609
knew would soften him, you know, or me or whatever,

01:45:52.689 --> 01:45:54.949
something that I could say, okay, that's out

01:45:54.949 --> 01:45:59.949
there in this space is it's safe. Until he felt

01:45:59.949 --> 01:46:03.840
safe to walk in. Yeah, because doing what I did,

01:46:03.960 --> 01:46:07.340
I mean, I worked gangs. I was on call. I worked

01:46:07.340 --> 01:46:10.500
undercover, constantly on call. I worked with

01:46:10.500 --> 01:46:14.260
the FBI's Fugitive Task Force, never home. You

01:46:14.260 --> 01:46:20.979
know, JTTF, never home. And so how do I differentiate

01:46:20.979 --> 01:46:24.829
home versus work? I don't because I go to a grocery

01:46:24.829 --> 01:46:26.970
store and see skinheads walking around or I go

01:46:26.970 --> 01:46:29.569
to church and see a bunch of nationalists sitting

01:46:29.569 --> 01:46:32.649
three rows down or whatever it might be. You

01:46:32.649 --> 01:46:35.229
know, I went to church one day and saw a guy

01:46:35.229 --> 01:46:38.510
I arrested earlier in that shift, you know, for

01:46:38.510 --> 01:46:42.250
beating up his wife. And so there's there's different

01:46:42.250 --> 01:46:45.630
things in law enforcement. It's hard to be off

01:46:45.630 --> 01:46:48.550
because you're constantly on. But in this home,

01:46:48.789 --> 01:46:52.920
it was safe. But in the home. Tani made the home

01:46:52.920 --> 01:46:59.479
safe. And there's no judgment. There is no shaming.

01:46:59.640 --> 01:47:02.920
There is no, but you, there's none of that. And

01:47:02.920 --> 01:47:06.819
what got me back to doing it, Tani always has

01:47:06.819 --> 01:47:10.399
something going on. And a lot of people think,

01:47:10.600 --> 01:47:13.819
holy crap, but you know what? It was good because

01:47:13.819 --> 01:47:16.600
whether we were outside mowing the lawn or raking

01:47:16.600 --> 01:47:21.260
up or in the pool or going to Disneyland or going

01:47:21.260 --> 01:47:23.819
to Lake Powell or going on a trip or going to

01:47:23.819 --> 01:47:26.159
Glendale to her parents' house, whatever it might've

01:47:26.159 --> 01:47:29.199
been, there's always something that would keep

01:47:29.199 --> 01:47:33.020
my mind away from what's always on my mind. Well,

01:47:33.039 --> 01:47:34.960
because you guys, you guys, I'll put you in there.

01:47:35.000 --> 01:47:37.079
You think that that's the real world. No, this,

01:47:37.159 --> 01:47:39.920
the real world is not my world or your world

01:47:39.920 --> 01:47:43.439
is something in between that. So I don't know

01:47:43.439 --> 01:47:45.439
if we're even answering your question. No, no,

01:47:45.460 --> 01:47:47.560
you are. Absolutely. What about so you talked

01:47:47.560 --> 01:47:49.500
about, obviously, you know, the trips and bringing

01:47:49.500 --> 01:47:52.699
the baby. What about, you know, other elements

01:47:52.699 --> 01:47:56.659
that help either of you kind of decompress? The

01:47:56.659 --> 01:48:01.119
gym is the gym is working out. That's that helps

01:48:01.119 --> 01:48:03.960
me decompress, whether it's in the garage or

01:48:03.960 --> 01:48:06.439
at the gym with my boys, with my daughter, with

01:48:06.439 --> 01:48:11.479
Tani, just going to the gym. pushing that physical

01:48:11.479 --> 01:48:14.880
force of pushing things is my decompression to

01:48:14.880 --> 01:48:18.960
this day is my decompression. And people ask

01:48:18.960 --> 01:48:20.680
me this all the time. I'm not sure that I took

01:48:20.680 --> 01:48:22.539
really good care of that kind of stuff. I don't

01:48:22.539 --> 01:48:24.840
think I was ever thinking about it. I was thinking

01:48:24.840 --> 01:48:27.479
about how do we keep this family intact and going

01:48:27.479 --> 01:48:30.159
in the direction that we want it to go. And I

01:48:30.159 --> 01:48:33.520
think that was my motivating, you know, I think,

01:48:33.520 --> 01:48:37.149
I think sometimes it was just on. You know, we

01:48:37.149 --> 01:48:39.750
just how do I do this? Because I only had so

01:48:39.750 --> 01:48:43.149
many skills. I mean, I wasn't. And then I would

01:48:43.149 --> 01:48:45.029
reach out to people. If I didn't know the answer,

01:48:45.130 --> 01:48:47.109
I'd reach out to people that might might could

01:48:47.109 --> 01:48:49.069
help us. And, you know, a lot of people were

01:48:49.069 --> 01:48:52.550
in that journey with us. And we kept our faith.

01:48:52.689 --> 01:48:56.090
I think that you have to. I mean, we tried to

01:48:56.090 --> 01:48:57.829
focus on Christ. You know, we're Christians.

01:48:57.869 --> 01:49:00.670
So we try to keep the focus there, not on religion,

01:49:00.789 --> 01:49:03.329
but on Christ and in God and things that are

01:49:03.329 --> 01:49:08.050
are good. So as we've touched on for quite a

01:49:08.050 --> 01:49:11.109
bit, you know, religion can be a beautiful bringing

01:49:11.109 --> 01:49:13.550
together of a community or it can be used for

01:49:13.550 --> 01:49:16.569
division and hate. What would be your advice

01:49:16.569 --> 01:49:19.210
to people as far as finding a place of worship

01:49:19.210 --> 01:49:21.210
that align with the values that we've discussed

01:49:21.210 --> 01:49:29.390
today? That's an amazing question. Man, I work

01:49:29.390 --> 01:49:35.109
in the extremist cult religious. vein. And this

01:49:35.109 --> 01:49:36.909
is something that they struggle with. And a lot

01:49:36.909 --> 01:49:38.909
of them are having church at home, you know,

01:49:38.909 --> 01:49:41.109
absolutely getting dressed up and finding a preacher

01:49:41.109 --> 01:49:43.710
that they want to listen to and just sitting

01:49:43.710 --> 01:49:47.029
down on their couches and having church. So I

01:49:47.029 --> 01:49:50.189
think you got to do whatever works for you. But

01:49:50.189 --> 01:49:55.649
what do you think? Well, I, I struggle because

01:49:55.649 --> 01:50:01.970
anytime you can't put your faith in a man. If

01:50:01.970 --> 01:50:04.090
you put your faith in Jesus Christ or if you

01:50:04.090 --> 01:50:06.569
put your faith in God or whether it's Buddha

01:50:06.569 --> 01:50:10.850
or whatever your faith goes to, if you keep it

01:50:10.850 --> 01:50:13.529
on that, you're bound to find truth and you're

01:50:13.529 --> 01:50:17.689
bound to find peace and comfort and an ability

01:50:17.689 --> 01:50:21.130
to relax. But if you put your faith in the man

01:50:21.130 --> 01:50:24.529
behind the pulpit preaching, that's not going

01:50:24.529 --> 01:50:26.569
to do it for you. You just have to find what

01:50:26.569 --> 01:50:29.430
brings peace and joy and love into your life.

01:50:31.079 --> 01:50:33.060
Yeah, I've always struggled with the exact same

01:50:33.060 --> 01:50:36.479
thing. You know, God told me like, did he? That

01:50:36.479 --> 01:50:38.819
you had a conversation with God and he told you,

01:50:38.880 --> 01:50:40.439
hey, tell all the people in your church that

01:50:40.439 --> 01:50:43.100
I said this. You know, did he send a text? Can

01:50:43.100 --> 01:50:45.199
I see it? Because I'm starting to struggle with

01:50:45.199 --> 01:50:47.479
that. You know what I mean? I love the idea that

01:50:47.479 --> 01:50:49.920
some people have said on here where. They take

01:50:49.920 --> 01:50:52.100
little bits of each of these religions and they

01:50:52.100 --> 01:50:54.159
make their own very personal one. And I would

01:50:54.159 --> 01:50:56.520
say that's exactly what I do. You know, I don't

01:50:56.520 --> 01:50:58.439
lean into one specific one, but I want to look

01:50:58.439 --> 01:51:01.279
out my window and I see the sun and, you know,

01:51:01.300 --> 01:51:03.180
the trees and the birds and everything. That

01:51:03.180 --> 01:51:05.880
to me is God, like everything around. We're talking

01:51:05.880 --> 01:51:08.159
about America being a beautiful country. It is.

01:51:08.220 --> 01:51:11.250
It's absolutely stunning. and so you know taking

01:51:11.250 --> 01:51:13.310
the wisdom that's been the common denominator

01:51:13.310 --> 01:51:16.069
that's been passed down for millennia it doesn't

01:51:16.069 --> 01:51:18.609
even have to be just in the religious side all

01:51:18.609 --> 01:51:20.569
the great minds that are preaching the same kind

01:51:20.569 --> 01:51:23.489
of thing kindness compassion community you see

01:51:23.489 --> 01:51:26.270
these common denominators and i would say you

01:51:26.270 --> 01:51:28.229
know if what you're being taught if the community

01:51:28.229 --> 01:51:30.810
you're surrounding yourself with you know embraces

01:51:30.810 --> 01:51:33.409
those And you're probably in a good place. But

01:51:33.409 --> 01:51:35.470
if they're talking about God loves all of you,

01:51:35.470 --> 01:51:38.329
except the gays, then maybe you need a question

01:51:38.329 --> 01:51:41.670
where you're where you're standing. Yeah. And

01:51:41.670 --> 01:51:45.970
I I'm not defined by my religion. I would want

01:51:45.970 --> 01:51:49.409
to be defined by goodness, kindness, grace, all

01:51:49.409 --> 01:51:51.250
the things that you just said. That's what I

01:51:51.250 --> 01:51:54.329
hope defines me, my family and the people I love.

01:51:54.430 --> 01:51:56.050
And I think that's what we should be working

01:51:56.050 --> 01:51:59.850
towards because we're not always there. But 100

01:51:59.850 --> 01:52:02.689
percent. All right. Well, that was love. Let's

01:52:02.689 --> 01:52:04.590
talk about hate for a second. Your book, The

01:52:04.590 --> 01:52:07.430
Hate Next Door. What made you decide to sit down

01:52:07.430 --> 01:52:15.189
and write it? Therapy. When I retired, I had

01:52:15.189 --> 01:52:16.909
all these things going through my head, all these

01:52:16.909 --> 01:52:21.270
different stories and instances and stuff going

01:52:21.270 --> 01:52:23.289
through my head. And Tani said, just write it

01:52:23.289 --> 01:52:27.479
down. It goes back to not knowing necessarily

01:52:27.479 --> 01:52:31.020
what to do and just saying, well, you know, let's

01:52:31.020 --> 01:52:32.859
do something. I knew I needed to get out of his

01:52:32.859 --> 01:52:38.960
head. And that started the whole thing. And then,

01:52:38.979 --> 01:52:40.939
you know, I mean, I would write it like a police

01:52:40.939 --> 01:52:43.920
report. You know, on this date, intersection

01:52:43.920 --> 01:52:47.520
of this and this, this, you know, white male

01:52:47.520 --> 01:52:50.079
wearing whatever. And then Tony just made it

01:52:50.079 --> 01:52:55.739
better. She put, she put. The human, human, Matt,

01:52:55.960 --> 01:52:59.020
nobody wants to read this. And then she made

01:52:59.020 --> 01:53:00.840
it better. Yeah, but I never thought we were

01:53:00.840 --> 01:53:03.720
going to like publish anything. I just thought,

01:53:03.779 --> 01:53:05.439
you know, it would be good for the kids to know

01:53:05.439 --> 01:53:07.460
where they came from and what had gone on in

01:53:07.460 --> 01:53:09.939
our home and that kind of stuff. Because we kept

01:53:09.939 --> 01:53:13.039
so much, we made this home about love and not

01:53:13.039 --> 01:53:16.119
so much, that didn't always creep in. But I wanted

01:53:16.119 --> 01:53:20.029
them to know what was going on as well. Um, yeah,

01:53:20.170 --> 01:53:22.850
but his was like, it was a cold, dark night on

01:53:22.850 --> 01:53:26.630
the 56th street in Maine. And I'm like, This

01:53:26.630 --> 01:53:28.869
is funny. Cause I spent a lot of cold, dark nights

01:53:28.869 --> 01:53:32.829
at 56th and Maine. But it was like, you know,

01:53:32.829 --> 01:53:34.350
it's like, no one cares about that, but it was

01:53:34.350 --> 01:53:36.850
so detailed that it was easy to make something

01:53:36.850 --> 01:53:39.909
out of it. Did you find it cathartic when you

01:53:39.909 --> 01:53:43.550
wrote it? I tell you why it took me, there's

01:53:43.550 --> 01:53:45.750
some parts of it that took me a long time to

01:53:45.750 --> 01:53:50.930
write. because you couldn't, I had to, I had

01:53:50.930 --> 01:53:53.649
to go back into that mindset. You know, I had

01:53:53.649 --> 01:53:56.149
to go back into that. And that's the type of

01:53:56.149 --> 01:53:58.770
stuff that I don't think any first responder

01:53:58.770 --> 01:54:01.449
wants to go back into the things that has caused

01:54:01.449 --> 01:54:04.270
trauma in his life. And that's why it was good.

01:54:04.710 --> 01:54:06.630
But I don't think it brought us closer together.

01:54:06.770 --> 01:54:09.409
I mean, it has now, but at the time, I mean,

01:54:09.409 --> 01:54:11.229
it was like, look, I'm not helping. I'm not even

01:54:11.229 --> 01:54:13.489
wanting, you can write whatever you want, but

01:54:13.489 --> 01:54:15.979
I'm out for a minute. Or he'd say, I'm out. Yeah.

01:54:16.140 --> 01:54:18.520
So because I'd ask him questions that he didn't

01:54:18.520 --> 01:54:20.239
want to he didn't want to go back into right

01:54:20.239 --> 01:54:24.680
then. And what's crazy is when we started writing

01:54:24.680 --> 01:54:28.760
it, I took like a notepad and I was writing everything

01:54:28.760 --> 01:54:31.640
in a notebook. And so we went down to Mexico,

01:54:31.920 --> 01:54:35.739
spent a weekend at a place in Mexico, and I read

01:54:35.739 --> 01:54:40.659
it while Tony typed it into the laptop. And that's

01:54:40.659 --> 01:54:42.699
how we started the whole electronic thing. And

01:54:42.699 --> 01:54:49.420
it was. When you read it, when I read it, it

01:54:49.420 --> 01:54:53.760
makes me stop and think, man, that was jacked

01:54:53.760 --> 01:54:58.720
up. And it makes me grateful that, number one,

01:54:58.739 --> 01:55:00.520
that I'm sitting here, and number two, that I'm

01:55:00.520 --> 01:55:04.760
sitting here with Tani. Because it's just the

01:55:04.760 --> 01:55:11.199
crap that we are put into and the traumas that

01:55:11.199 --> 01:55:14.060
we're put into. No human being is... Should have

01:55:14.060 --> 01:55:16.539
to go through the traumas that I'm sure you've

01:55:16.539 --> 01:55:18.300
been through, that I've been through, other first

01:55:18.300 --> 01:55:21.039
responders or military has been through. But

01:55:21.039 --> 01:55:23.760
our brains aren't wired for it. And that's why

01:55:23.760 --> 01:55:27.180
PTSD affects the brain the way it does, because

01:55:27.180 --> 01:55:30.199
it rewires your brain. And now we have to walk

01:55:30.199 --> 01:55:33.539
through it to get it wired back. And that book

01:55:33.539 --> 01:55:37.140
was the beginning of rewiring my brain. And you

01:55:37.140 --> 01:55:38.659
know, James, you talked about something, you

01:55:38.659 --> 01:55:40.699
know, I would take Matt, you know, what did you

01:55:40.699 --> 01:55:42.560
do? I would take him to this place in Mexico

01:55:42.560 --> 01:55:45.880
that our cell phones would not work on purpose.

01:55:46.000 --> 01:55:47.960
Like when we walked through the first place,

01:55:47.960 --> 01:55:50.220
the first time Matt said, really, Tony? I said,

01:55:50.239 --> 01:55:52.960
really freaking kidding me, but it is our favorite

01:55:52.960 --> 01:55:54.859
place. And that's where we were. And when Matt

01:55:54.859 --> 01:55:58.119
was reading that to me, he was, he's, I'm going

01:55:58.119 --> 01:56:01.170
to tell this. He started sobbing. And I knew

01:56:01.170 --> 01:56:03.289
that we were at a place where, because this is

01:56:03.289 --> 01:56:05.970
a man that had forgotten how to cry. And so,

01:56:06.130 --> 01:56:09.750
and I found, you know, as we talked to other

01:56:09.750 --> 01:56:11.789
first responders and things, that's not unusual.

01:56:12.569 --> 01:56:15.250
So as they go through, he had forgotten how to

01:56:15.250 --> 01:56:17.189
cry. And as he started to read some of that,

01:56:17.350 --> 01:56:21.229
it was like, oh, I realized how important this

01:56:21.229 --> 01:56:25.550
was, you know, not just for us as a couple, for

01:56:25.550 --> 01:56:28.250
him, but it might help other families, other

01:56:28.250 --> 01:56:31.130
people that had been. or are going through this

01:56:31.130 --> 01:56:34.409
kind of thing to know they're not alone. Absolutely.

01:56:34.609 --> 01:56:37.189
Yeah, it's interesting. I wrote my second book

01:56:37.189 --> 01:56:40.270
last year and the writing was kind of cathartic.

01:56:40.270 --> 01:56:42.829
But again, there was one scene I would always

01:56:42.829 --> 01:56:45.369
tear up. I'd always start crying when I was writing

01:56:45.369 --> 01:56:48.409
it and it was so bizarre. But it was when I read

01:56:48.409 --> 01:56:51.229
the audio book that was the really hard part

01:56:51.229 --> 01:56:53.189
because I think when you do write, it's kind

01:56:53.189 --> 01:56:55.949
of flowing out of you. But when you... do the

01:56:55.949 --> 01:56:58.189
audio book now you're really having to relive

01:56:58.189 --> 01:57:00.449
it because you obviously want that emotion in

01:57:00.449 --> 01:57:02.250
your voice so the person listening can understand

01:57:02.250 --> 01:57:05.529
what you're talking about but that that actually

01:57:05.529 --> 01:57:08.609
was was was rough you know that sent me back

01:57:08.609 --> 01:57:12.949
a little bit for a while yeah it's um my worry

01:57:12.949 --> 01:57:14.909
with doing an audio book is that i'm just gonna

01:57:14.909 --> 01:57:17.470
say this is such full of crap this is what really

01:57:17.470 --> 01:57:22.970
happened these guys are all idiots and it's just

01:57:22.970 --> 01:57:28.079
but but you know what i think As I look back

01:57:28.079 --> 01:57:33.380
on my career, you know, the hate next door. The

01:57:33.380 --> 01:57:38.840
hate next door spans so much of my career, but

01:57:38.840 --> 01:57:41.439
there's some there's a lot of other stories that

01:57:41.439 --> 01:57:43.539
aren't even in the book that are just as traumatic

01:57:43.539 --> 01:57:49.640
as as as things in the book. And it's but I mean,

01:57:49.659 --> 01:57:51.520
it's the stuff that we can't get away from now.

01:57:51.720 --> 01:57:54.520
But if you guys went through it. You should,

01:57:54.520 --> 01:57:56.880
it should, hopefully we can help others through

01:57:56.880 --> 01:57:58.560
whatever they're going through as well. And that's

01:57:58.560 --> 01:58:00.659
when I finally decided, okay, maybe this is something

01:58:00.659 --> 01:58:03.319
we should go ahead and publish. So at first I

01:58:03.319 --> 01:58:04.960
was like, I'm not putting my family out there.

01:58:05.039 --> 01:58:08.119
I don't need anybody to know all this, but we

01:58:08.119 --> 01:58:10.060
hope that it would help people and that help

01:58:10.060 --> 01:58:13.220
children and coaches and teachers and people

01:58:13.220 --> 01:58:15.560
to recognize the signs of indoctrination so that

01:58:15.560 --> 01:58:17.600
we can save kids before they even get into this

01:58:17.600 --> 01:58:21.409
mess. One of my goals is that the psychology

01:58:21.409 --> 01:58:25.989
departments at universities would use it for

01:58:25.989 --> 01:58:29.130
their students, you know, so that we can learn

01:58:29.130 --> 01:58:32.449
what happens to first responders when they do

01:58:32.449 --> 01:58:34.390
things. What is it really like to be undercover?

01:58:34.689 --> 01:58:38.149
What is it like to go from a Klan meeting to

01:58:38.149 --> 01:58:41.090
working undercover in a gay sex club? You know,

01:58:41.130 --> 01:58:45.890
it's just in a matter of minutes, you know, and

01:58:45.890 --> 01:58:48.369
so it's just. The things that we do, it's like

01:58:48.369 --> 01:58:50.409
going from cutting somebody out with the jaws

01:58:50.409 --> 01:58:55.489
of life to going and giving CPR to a baby with

01:58:55.489 --> 01:58:59.489
SIDS. You know, and it's just, it's stuff that,

01:58:59.489 --> 01:59:02.989
I mean, even to this day, every time I think

01:59:02.989 --> 01:59:06.930
about it, I get upset. The title, The Hate Next

01:59:06.930 --> 01:59:10.630
Door, that's a kind of nod to the pervasive nature

01:59:10.630 --> 01:59:13.229
of this particular issue, because as we touched

01:59:13.229 --> 01:59:15.390
on, you know, if you were born in this part of

01:59:15.390 --> 01:59:17.569
town and this apartment complex, we've all seen,

01:59:17.590 --> 01:59:19.350
OK, you're a crip, you're a blood, you're an

01:59:19.350 --> 01:59:23.109
MS -13, whatever you are. But as we've talked

01:59:23.109 --> 01:59:26.109
about with white supremacy, it's more of an ideology

01:59:26.109 --> 01:59:29.390
that can be pervasive through any community.

01:59:30.750 --> 01:59:36.439
Yeah. And my my original. title was why but when

01:59:36.439 --> 01:59:39.420
we change it to the hate next door it just it

01:59:39.420 --> 01:59:41.699
brings everything in could be your teachers could

01:59:41.699 --> 01:59:44.279
be your pastor could be your attorney your doctors

01:59:44.279 --> 01:59:46.920
your anybody your neighbor or whatever it is

01:59:46.920 --> 01:59:50.319
if that's how close hate is to to where we are

01:59:50.319 --> 01:59:54.920
absolutely well i want to thank you so much um

01:59:54.920 --> 01:59:56.979
if people want to buy the book where are the

01:59:56.979 --> 02:00:01.170
best places online Anywhere books are sold, Amazon,

02:00:01.710 --> 02:00:03.789
Barnes & Noble, that kind of thing. It's anywhere

02:00:03.789 --> 02:00:07.550
books are sold or even source books. Brilliant.

02:00:07.670 --> 02:00:10.409
And if people want to reach out to you, message

02:00:10.409 --> 02:00:12.229
you, follow you on social media, where are the

02:00:12.229 --> 02:00:15.930
best places? You can get me on Facebook. You

02:00:15.930 --> 02:00:20.229
can get me on Instagram. You can email me. You

02:00:20.229 --> 02:00:23.050
can do whatever you want. I'm not that hard to

02:00:23.050 --> 02:00:26.109
find. Get me on LinkedIn, whatever. We're out

02:00:26.109 --> 02:00:30.189
there. We're able to be found. And by good people,

02:00:30.229 --> 02:00:33.590
please, you know, no, I don't need any more hits

02:00:33.590 --> 02:00:36.630
on me. So, you know, let's keep it, let's keep

02:00:36.630 --> 02:00:40.069
it with positive. Absolutely. Well, I want to

02:00:40.069 --> 02:00:42.590
thank you both so much. It's been such an interesting

02:00:42.590 --> 02:00:44.430
conversation. Of course, we could have, you know,

02:00:44.449 --> 02:00:47.430
dived into all the cases and undercover world,

02:00:47.510 --> 02:00:50.890
but to have the backgrounds that you guys have

02:00:50.890 --> 02:00:52.869
and to have this kind of, you know, kindness,

02:00:52.890 --> 02:00:55.029
compassion, philosophical conversation, I think

02:00:55.029 --> 02:00:57.930
it's been. beautiful to be honest so thank you

02:00:57.930 --> 02:00:59.869
so much for being so generous with your time

02:00:59.869 --> 02:01:02.130
and coming on the behind the shield podcast today

02:01:02.130 --> 02:01:05.109
oh thank you so much james thanks for the work

02:01:05.109 --> 02:01:05.449
you're doing