This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran
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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you
think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome
to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,
my name is James Gearing and this week it is
my absolute honor to welcome on the show Matt
and Tawny Browning. Now Matt spent a full career
in law enforcement in Arizona, a majority of
which was spent undercover infiltrating the white
supremacist gangs. What is more impressive is
that his wife Tawny, not employed to do this
at all, more often than not was also involved
in these undercover operations. On top of that,
Tawney was one of the production members behind
Escaping Polygamy, exposing religious extremism.
So as you can imagine, we discuss a host of topics,
from Matt's journey into law enforcement, their
relationship dynamic, environmental factors that
bolster white supremacy, some powerful rehabilitation
stories, and so much more. Now before we get
to this incredible conversation, as I say every
week, please just take a moment. go to whichever
app you listen to this on subscribe to the show
leave feedback and leave a rating Every single
five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,
therefore making it easier for others to find.
And this is a free library of well over 1 ,000
episodes now. So all I ask in return is that
you help share these incredible men and women's
stories so I can get them to every single person
on planet Earth who needs to hear them. So with
that being said, I introduce to you... Matt and
Tawny Browning. Enjoy. Well, Matt and Tawny,
I want to start by saying thank you so much for
taking the time and coming on the Behind the
Shield podcast today. Oh, for sure. Happy to
be here. So where on planet Earth are we finding
you this afternoon? We are in Arizona. It actually
is. It's nice outside today. Yeah. It's not normally
nice outside. Well, actually, it's just really
beautiful right now. February, March, April is
just beautiful here. So good time to be here.
Brilliant. When is your greenest month? I remember
I drove through twice and went to California
and then back to Florida. And obviously living
in California can be very kind of brown and yellow
a lot of the year. So when is your most beautiful
time in Arizona? Now, March and March and April.
There's two weeks that is green. So that makes
it nice. Then it gets hot. No, it's just the
flower. He doesn't know what he's talking about.
The flowers are so beautiful right now. They
just are stunning. And I think that's why people
come and the blossoms are in bloom for the orange
trees. I mean, yeah, it's actually very beautiful
right now. But you have to look for that. You
have to take time out and smell the roses. I
was like, you do not have to look for it because
it's everywhere, Matt. It's everywhere. You have
to time it while I take it up. Yes, yes. All
right. Well, let's start at the very beginning
of your journey. So, Tony, let's start with you.
Tell me where you were born and tell me a little
bit about your family dynamic, what your parents
did, how many siblings. I was born here in Arizona.
So I'm a native and which was quite, I mean,
not so much anymore, but at the time that was,
you know, in grade school, if I could say I'm
a native Arizona and I was pretty cool because
there's maybe one or two of us in our, you know,
in the entire grade. So it's kind of a big deal.
So I'm a native Arizona and first generation
though, my parents, you know, moved from somewhere
else with a job and we, I have six, there's six
of us. They had three boys and three girls. And
I grew up in. I would say in a home of love.
I mean, I had no idea that hate really existed.
I mean, it wasn't a perfect family by any means.
There's six of us. You can imagine that there
was a lot of crazy that went on. My dad was a
mechanical engineer. My mom was a stay -at -home
mom who taught music. And I'm number two in that
lineup. So there was a lot of responsibilities
on me for raising the family. we grew up in a
very hispanic community like it was there there
kind of was like two two streets down from where
we were it's almost like like um how do i say
this like it was a barrio two streets down from
where i lived and so and everywhere from so south
was a barrio and north um was the white kids
for lack of a better word and we all came together
for grade school and i didn't know anything different
i loved it i think it was an ideal like way to
grow up actually i know we'll get into this especially
when we talk about some of the gangs and and
the stuff that you've spent your life working
on as well what about your exposure to religion
faith etc when you were young um very very religious
grew up mainstream Mormon, Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter -day Saints. So definitely grew up
very actively in the church. And every Sunday
and every Wednesday, we were definitely doing
church activities. When I think about some of
the nicest people I know, a lot of them are Mormon.
And so I think this is what we'll get into this
deeper. But what's really interesting is if you
look at a lot of these, you know, religions and
religious doctrines, you know, the center of
it is kindness, compassion, community, love.
And it's interesting how it gets skewed by more
extremist groups. It definitely does. I mean,
religion to me is beautiful. It's Christ. You
know, at least when we're if it's taking us to
God and Christ and all those those tenets that
you just said, you know, it's beautiful. It has
definitely got skewed and twisted to do man's
work and not God's. But if you look at it, too,
I mean, look back on what are wars fought over?
You know, a lot of wars are fought over over
religion and especially mean the the. the jews
have been i mean 2 000 years now we're talking
that they've been persecuted because of their
religion so religion can either bring in happiness
and joy or it can bring in destruction it depends
on which way you want to take it in the field
where i find myself now the ones that so many
have decided not to leave in any kind of spirituality
or religion you know traditional religion and
and i can understand that because of their bad
experiences but it seems that when i The most
people that I've talked to, the ones that are
atheists, are ones that have had bad religious
experience. Well, I think when you look back
at a lot of the violence and torture and wars
that were under a banner of religion, I think
more often than not, you see that as just a kind
of facade of greed and power that's actually
behind it. And I think, again, it's an abuse
of a religion. It's not actually the religion
itself. Yeah. Abused religion is horrible. It's
we're seeing it now. You know, you got your Christian
nationalism. You have your Christian identity.
You have all the you know, in the name of God,
we're we're doing this in the name of God. We're
hurting these people on this and all white. God
wants all white and everything else. It doesn't
work like that. Now, I mean, even I know it's
an unpopular conversation, but it's just true.
If you look at what's happening in Gaza. a small
portion of the Jewish community, and it's not
an expression of the entire Jewish community,
but certain Israelis are persecuting, you know,
and killing men, women, and children now. So,
you know, even the persecuted, if they, you know,
I think that's probably, I would imagine, again,
multi -generational trauma that, you know, hurt
people hurt people, as they say, and if left
unchecked, now they become the bully. Yeah, I
call that trauma drama. I mean, all of this drama,
all of this hatred, all of this ugly comes because
of so much of our own trauma, even in our lives
where we're not in a war infested, you know,
community. You can see it. You can see things
come out sideways, you know, because of maybe
childhood trauma or whatever else someone's suffering
from. Absolutely. Well, we get back on the chronological
journey and we'll dive back into that in a bit.
Tony, for you, when you were kind of school age,
what were you playing and doing as far as sports?
Oh, I was like so fast. I was always winning
field day, but I didn't do anything like that.
I was doing music. I was doing anywhere I could
get my hands on anything artistic. That's what
I was doing. Begging my parents to be in dance
classes, things like that. And you can imagine
with six kids, that wasn't always what we got
to do. So, but I was still on like the gymnastics
team. I guess I did that. Anything that was,
I could have artistic expression. That's what
I was doing. And definitely singing. I mean,
that's what was my. My passion was to sing. What
about career aspirations? Was your dream to actually
do that as a profession or was it something else
on the back burner? Sorry, James, didn't even
mean to. So passionately was only going to be
a country singer. That's all that mattered to
me in my entire life. That's what I was going
to do. And there was I never thought about family,
having a family, a husband, really anything like
that too much. It was about it was about singing.
So lead me through that journey initially then.
What was your journey like in the pursuit of
country music and where did it kind of stumble
or falter a little bit? James, you're asking
all the questions that I've never had to really
answer like this because it kind of gets glossed
over. But I really great teach. Well, my mom,
like I said, was a piano teacher. So and I sometimes
when she would have babies, she'd get so sick
that I would teach some of her piano. piano lessons
while she, you know, just it kind of fell into
that way. I had a sister that would spend hours
with me playing the piano while I sang. So it
just kind of started from very, very young. And
the church offered a great opportunity for me
to have that kind of warmth and encouragement
to keep going. So family church, that kind of
thing. Great, great. Mrs. McGinnis, great, great,
you know, middle school. teachers that just kind
of honed in on that and let me do it. But as
I got older, 16 was, Matt and I started dating
really early. Was I about 16 when you were rotating
for me? Probably 16, I started doing a lot of
different, you know, gigs and actually getting
paid for it. And Matt just, he would come along
and carry my gear for me and help. I just, he
just wanted to spend time with me, right? I had
a car. We just did that, you know, so that's
what we did. And he, he actually had a friends
that were in heavy metal bands. So, you know,
he kind of opened my eyes to that and, and we
just did it. And I mean, I kept working like
it was good money for me. I, I just kept working.
There's this Phoenix area is a very, we call
it a casuals. There's lots of work for that kind
of. thing here and they always wanted a female
singer so I do a lot of sit -ins and just things
like that and then worked with different bands
it was never like my band I did just a lot of
casuals I could sing everything from 1940s music
to country music and whatever they'd pay me to
do I'd do so we're going to go to Matt's origin
story in a second but just moving forward further
so now you're successful like how far did you
get with that as a profession Well, I was singing
jingles, um, turtle Creek mall in Hattiesburg,
Mississippi. And, um, I, you know, so low level,
I would say I actually opened for Alison Krauss
at a mall. Um, you know, I did that and I was
doing, um, I went to Nashville and they, they
offered me to come was working with the, uh,
this is our cat. it's our son's cat yeah it's
anyway so I so I worked and I did some I did
some I was on MTV I mean just little low -level
things but on on my way there I had then we had
two kids and um I was gone a lot I was working
a lot and um you went to Nashville Matt was working
a lot yeah and anyway I was offered by one of
a very a voice coach actually said you know you
shouldn't you should come and see what you can
get started here And Matt was working at the
time. And he said, yeah, go, go for six months.
And when I went back to that voice coach, he
said, you either all come as a family or you
don't come. Because he said in his experience,
what he had seen is that abstinence didn't make
the heart grow fonder. It made the heart wander.
So we kind of had to regroup as a family and
decide if that was the way we were going to go.
But you always said you drive the bus. Still
will. Up to that point, he had always said that.
It'll be a fast bus. Probably lifted with tires,
but it'll be a bus. I think you were nervous
to kind of leave. He had just started his career.
And really, we could have done that, you know,
law enforcement anywhere. But we decided to stay
put where we had the support of family and friends
and things that we knew here in the valley, the
Phoenix Valley. The deeper I've got into, you
know, just the whole, human conversation, but
you obviously become a little bit more well -versed
in emotions and mental health. And you look at
some of these documentaries on the bands and
of course they're living their best life when
they're on stage, but it's those shots where
they're on the tour bus and they're away from
their family. And you can just see how, yeah,
it might be great to have the money and the fame,
but equally and opposite, these are human beings
that are just dying to be back with their family.
And I think I, that was one of, I'm being careful
not to mention names necessarily, but he's one
of the most profoundly inspirational people I've
ever known. Not only did he help me with vocally
to get things where I wanted him to go, but he
helped me spiritually in ways that I'd never
expected to find from a voice coach or a voice
doctor. So he was right. He was definitely right.
He influenced my life for good. I certainly appreciate
him and think of him often for. some of his advice
in that realm he he saw that we had something
between us that was going to last and he wanted
it he wanted to do his part in making sure that
was going to happen as well beautiful yeah i
think this is one of the things um my son just
experienced it he he wanted to play volleyball
for the high school and that we have this bizarre
system in america where you get you know 30 kids
on the team and then you only play 15 of them
the others just sit and watch everyone play for
an entire season i don't understand quite how
that works just have two teams um but uh so he
wants to play volleyball so he has tried out
realize he's going to be riding the bench and
so he's going to be like yeah i don't want to
do this anymore because he wants to play volleyball
so he's got other groups that he plays with three
times a week that he can just show up and they'll
play the game i think this is it even with the
music my ex was a was an entertainer and um you
know you've got certain people that really are
pursuing that fame and then you've got real musicians
and i think it doesn't matter if you're getting
paid to do it you know if you love doing something
enough then you can still carry on singing playing
whatever it is that you do it come it comes out
it comes out you can't keep it in but james money
was nice i mean on a on a cop salary that you
know that actually clothed my children and me.
So I appreciated being able, really appreciated
being able to make some, you know, even a little
bit of a living from doing that. Absolutely.
All right. Well, Matt, where were you born? Tell
me about your family dynamic. How many siblings
and what did your parents do? I'm born and raised
in Phoenix. Okay. He's fifth generation Phoenix.
So that's, I mean, if I was cool, first generation,
he's fifth generation. So that's unheard of.
Yeah, my grandma, she died when she's 107 and
she never left Arizona. So, you know, I hope
that gene passes over me. I don't think I can
do 107. But anyway, so I was born and raised
here. I have three sisters. I have two older
than me, then one younger. Dad worked as an engineer
for different companies. Mom was a stay -at -home
mom. Before the kids came around, what was her
degree in? she's like some she's pretty cool
she's like some chemist or yeah she's pretty
cool before her time really getting she's 92
now she's a like a half a generation older than
my parents and she did like gen geneticist stuff
yeah she's pretty cool and matt's grandma also
got her degree yeah so he comes you know these
are pretty sharp women the uh the education gene
kind of skipped over me for a little bit and
then i kind of got back in school but um Yeah,
so that's me. Just grew up in Phoenix. Love doing
things outdoors, working on cars, driving fast,
playing softball. In high school, I played football.
And that was me. It's funny how many times you
hear of people well in their hundreds. My grandmother
passed away, I think just over a year ago now.
She was 104, almost 105. And then we just lost,
I think, the last. auschwitz survivor if i'm
not mistaken and she was 113 yes and so you look
at the way that we are told in america on our
screens that it's normal at 40 to be on you know
statins and blood thinners and hypertension meds
and then you look at the lifespan of some of
these humans and like wait a second we can live
quite a long time if we actually take care of
ourselves you're saying that the the topped out
age in the u .s is 78 78 years old in four months,
something like that, while other places in the
world is so much more. So, yeah, there's so much
we can do for ourselves to, you know, but it's
just a matter of doing it. It's just like everything
else. You have to have that drive. You have to
have that desire to do it. So, you know, but
then it gets into mental health and everything
else. But, yeah, I grew up here, and Tani, the
first time I saw Tani was I was playing softball,
and she came walking in. with the Mickey Mouse
shirt on. And that was it for me. I was hooked.
So I had to convince her of it. We were in our
teens. I mean, it's like something that we just,
yeah. Yeah. And then I started, like she said,
my friends had a band, you know, it's the 80s.
So they're, you know, hair metal and everything
else. I did some roadie stuff for them. So why
not? I'll do Tawny's stuff too. Yeah, our late
80s. But he took me into like bars that, mom,
sorry, you're not supposed to know this, that
I should never have been allowed to get into.
Something called the Mason Jar for anybody in
Phoenix. Oh, the jar. The jar was awesome because
you'd have Kiss play in town and then they go
to the jar and play a couple sets, you know,
in front of 40 people. And, you know, it was
just a good time. The Mason Jar was a good time.
Really seedy, really crazy for a girl in her
teens. Never should have been in there, but it
was definitely an education. They let her stay.
I'd get kicked out. Did you have the 80s hair
back then? Of course. I had the mullet up. When
I started working undercover, I had the mullet.
I had long hair. It was funny. Our neighbor across
the street, she cut hair, and so I just wanted
the sides trimmed up. And I had in a ponytail
and Tanya and I walked over to her house. She
had time to cut the sides real quick. And I saw
Tanya gave her the nod and it's like, what was
that about? And then my ponytails on the ground.
So it's like, okay. It was really bad. It's really
bad. And very out. Permed and frosted. He was
supposed to represent our family. And I could
not think that any. bad dirt bag, whatever he
was working, whatever word he used, you know,
human being would, that was involved in that
kind of nefarious activity would ever think that
he was legit. White trash. That's what I was
looking like. I look like garbage. Yeah, but
she cleaned me up just like she always does.
Well, going back to your early life, we talked
about playing football as far as sports. What
about career aspirations? Were you thinking of
law enforcement back then? Well, when I graduated
high school, my dad got me a job at the local
service station where they pump gas and work
on cars at the same place. And I started as a
mechanic. And so I was working on cars. And I
was loving that. But my goal in life, what I
wanted to be, was either a forest ranger. or
a police officer. And so I, you know, didn't
really care to go up to Northern Arizona and
go to college for four years to become a, you
know, work for Bureau of Land Management or something.
So I became a police officer. When you reflect
back, because we're going to talk about a lot
of individuals that have had trauma in their
past. A lot of us in uniform have an ACEs, adverse
childhood experience score that goes from zero
to 10, if I'm not mistaken. A lot of us actually
have a six and apparently incarcerated population,
their average is six as well. And I think this
is one of the missed elements of the first responder
mental health conversation. When you reflect
back now, were there any elements of your upbringing
you think that were kind of contributing to some
struggles later in life? Oh, I was tired of getting
my ass kicked. You know, I wasn't a fighter.
I was little. You know, during grade school,
I was always getting picked on and bullied and
things like that. And so, you know, that drove
me to being, you know what, I'm done with this.
And so I wanted to, and that's what I'm finding
now, what Tani and I are really involved in is
helping kids and helping, you know, don't mess
with kids. Because I was one of those kids that
was messed with. And so I think the whole bullying
aspect, yeah, 100%. Absolutely. Well, walk me
through your journey into law enforcement then.
Which department and then kind of what was your
on -ramp experience like? Well, first, I mean,
I told Tony on our honeymoon that I wanted to
be a cop. You told me before we got married.
That I was going to be a lawyer. Oh, yeah, that's
right. He told me before that he was going to
be a lawyer. Which is in criminal justice to
an extent. A street lawyer. I did not love police
officers. I had not had great... I thought they
were jerks. I hadn't had a lot of really great
experiences with them. And, you know, as I said,
I was so close to the Hispanic community, I wasn't
really impressed with how they were treated in
my presence. So I just wasn't really keen on
that. But so he told me on our honeymoon. Yeah.
And she, you know, as long as you don't buy drugs.
That's not what I said. As long as you know.
I said it's not too late to get this whole thing
an old because I did not. I was I was adamantly
against this. I was going to skip over that part.
Well, it was six months later. Well, I when I
figured out, you know, you he was going to support
our family. I mean, we had already decided that
when we had children that we wanted them to be.
We wanted to raise them as much as we could.
And I knew we had to be happy. And it was just
in him. I mean, we were you could just tell it
was in him. Yeah. So so I I went and I applied.
I originally applied with Phoenix. And while
I'm taking the written test, you know, some guys
behind me were talking. Yeah, I just I made it
all the way to psych. And I, you know, I'm so
far in the hiring process with Mesa that, you
know, they're hiring more people. And I look
back to look at these guys and I thought. You
know, if these guys are making it to the psych,
I'm going to get hired because they're kind of
wacky. And so I apply with Mesa. And once I applied,
that process went quick. And, you know, and my
my first my getting thrown into law enforcement
in the academy is an eye opener. And I don't
think I was prepared for that in my life. And
so, you know, we have field problems and I kind
of got screwed up in the field problems. Got
kicked out of the academy, got rehired by MESA,
went back to the academy, passed, graduated,
and I got thrown into MESA PD. Tony, when you
reflect back now, obviously knowing so many great
police officers, what were the mistakes made
by the ones in your community that created that
lack of trust or the dislike of that profession?
Oh, you're talking. It was just the way they
were treating the kids. I mean, like our whole
thing tends to go back to kids. It's like, you
know, kids are really smart and you don't get
to treat. You just don't get to treat kids like
that, especially kids of color. And I just and
I saw the differences with the way they would
treat me. They would even my friends, my Hispanic
friends would say, you go talk to them. I'm like,
I don't want to talk. And it wasn't because I
was an oratist or anything. It was. Honestly,
it was the color of my skin. And I knew they,
and we both knew it. I don't, I didn't even like
to talk about it. It still makes me feel uncomfortable.
So I thought those guys are jerks. If you're
going to treat someone, you know, just because
of, see, it's hard. See, I'm squirming a little
bit because it still makes me feel so like right
here in my gut, so disgusted that anyone, especially
someone of an authority would be treating kids
and like that. I mean, how it's just. We didn't
look at each other any different. Why were they?
Well, I think we I think doesn't matter who you
are. You can go back in your childhood or growing
up, even into your adulthood. And you can you
can you first automatically you can pull out
every negative experience you ever have with
a police officer. Yeah, he pulled me over and
he was a jerk and he was this and he was this.
And that's I have those same things, too, as
a police officer, as a undercover detective.
I had experience with police officers. And when
I left, I called my boss and said, call that
agency. And I want to file a complaint on this
guy. So that stuff still happens. Even it doesn't
matter to anybody. But I think what we also need
to understand is that you're taking the normal
person and you're throwing them into extreme
situations. And no way in my childhood did I
ever prepare for the things that I saw, the things
that I did, the things that I was involved in.
And, and, and so like Tony, we were just telling
our, our kids last night about a time Tony was
on a ride along and is when I was a patrol sergeant.
Oh my gosh. I cannot believe you're going to
tell this story. I was a patrol sergeant and
there was a house party and it was probably easy.
400 kids were inside this house, a little house.
And my guys, the guys on my squad called me up
and said, Hey, we can't get this party shut down.
They won't answer the door. I'm frustrated because
here I am. I just left my undercover work. You
know, we know how to deal with things. And this
new breed of police officers coming up to where,
OK, well, if you text them, they'll probably
answer you type thing. I said now. So I go to
show them. I remember that they kept saying,
but Sarge, they're not opening the door. And
it's like, OK, I'm on my way. I get there, pound
on the door, tell them you got three seconds,
open this door. If you do not open this door,
I swear to you, I'm kicking the door in. And
when I got to two, I started pounding on the
door. So it sounded like I was going to kick
the door in. And next thing you know, everybody
goes running. 400 kids are running everywhere.
It's not an exaggeration. But the thing about
it is, is that Tani was there on a ride along
and she was saying, you're a jerk to me. Why
do you have to treat these kids? Yeah, this is
my last ride along. Why do you have to treat
these kids like this? Why do you have to act
like this? Why do you, you know, all these whys,
but it goes back to why did they put me in the
situation that I have to do this? Why do I have
to go to the next level? Because you won't. do
the things you're supposed to do and so this
is i mean shoot this has been a while now and
i had kids that age i'm like oh my gosh and this
is why we're telling we were telling my son this
last night because he was going to get a fake
id so if you go clubbing and i'm like you're
going to get a jerk cop who's going to like you
know throw you in jail over a fake id you don't
this is what what it came up we're normal family
here so um but but that's how it came up but
at the time we had kids that age you know they
could have easily been at that party i could
have easily been at that party and why are we
going to hurt the rest of their future but he
was right james because the next day grandma
called him and thanked him for breaking up the
party we had um we stopped you know he stopped
someone from as he left he was hitting cars i
mean there was a lot of things that he stopped
that night that i just didn't have the the wisdom
to see at the time and so that's when i decided
i would just stay home but i guarantee you if
you go find 10 of these 400 kids, that cop was
a jerk, man. He was just a jerk. Okay, sorry.
It's something I talk about a lot when the conversation
of policing at the moment comes up. And people
say, oh, the way they're dressed, they look like
they're going to war. Have you ever asked why
are our streets so dangerous? Like go to Oslo,
go to Reykjavik, go to Lisbon. You're not going
to see, you know, gunfights in the streets or
now in the UK knife fights in the street. So
you can create an environment that forces law
enforcement to move a certain way if left unchecked.
And I think, you know, as we're going to get
into again, if we don't create a community that
pulls people together, that has that kind of
it takes a village mentality to raise these children
properly. Then you get this divisive rhetoric
that you see on Fox and CNN and the left and
the right. And then you just create this division
and this nastiness. And then you, you know, for
example, drug prohibition, in my opinion, epic
failure. Now you empower the underworld. So now
they can make money being in different gangs.
And then we wonder why our police have got to
wear tactical gear. everywhere because like every
single day you see they get executed so it's
all very well and don't get me wrong there's
some terrible cops out there and terrible firefighters
and terrible plumbers and accountants especially
politicians but um but yeah if we're not looking
at the you know why why were there 400 children
in that one house and why didn't someone answer
the door you know that's also part of this conversation
And I learned a great lesson that day. I mean,
I did. And and a lot there was two other of those
kids. One of his sergeant's kid was actually
there, too. Is this like edited? He's sitting
here saying, don't say that. But there was someone
that he knew his kid was there, too. And he he
went to jail just like everybody else. And and,
you know, how many we've had some things happen
here in Gilbert, Arizona, if cops have been more
proactive in making sure he even called the canine
out to get the kids that it's scattered because
he wasn't messing around. And, you know, how
how many kids did we stop from going any further
in in that? I say we you stop from going any
further down that road because of that night
of the cop that was the jerk. Yeah, especially
if you're stopping. cars, because I mean, how
many times do you go past those horrible memorial
circles on the side of the road? And, you know,
arguably a lot of those are going to be teenagers.
Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So that was, um, I mean, that's
law enforcement though. And James, we have five
kids and I actually would appreciate a cop that
was a jerk to one of my five kids, you know,
we'd work it out at home after that, but yeah.
So I learned a lot that night. I'll give you
a quick story about the power of proactivity.
And I think this is the problem that we see in
first responders is we just keep responding to
these calls. But the people who can do the proactive
stuff aren't stepping up. But we had a kid where
I live. It's a beautiful community. It's like
four, actually five subdivisions around this
communal play space. So there's a football pitch
and, you know, a swimming pool and all the things
where the kids truly can play all day and then
come home when the streetlights come on. But
we had this teen. I mean, truly terrorizing the
neighborhood, driving. It's like 30 miles an
hour around that main area, 25 through the streets.
And he would be doing 60. Almost lost it in front
of a bus stop full of kids at one point. And
I'm on our community Facebook. I'm like, does
anyone know this kid? And a lot of people, oh,
they need to put up speed bumps. They, they,
they. And I'm like, what about us? What about
we? And so a couple of them told me who he was.
Unusual last name. I end up tracking the dad
down. I go to his place of work and I sit down
and say, hey, you know, this is who I am. This
is what I do for a living. I see the result of
this kind of thing. And it's not good for the
driver or the other people. You know, is this
your son's car? The dad calls straight away,
tells his wife to take away the son's keys. We
don't see him for a few months. He comes back
and that kid is driven like a damn saint ever
since. I just bumped into them at a burger joint
yesterday. The kid and his parents and his dad
was over by the soda machine. I went over and
said, I don't know if you remember me. He said,
I thought I recognized you. I said, tell your
son that you're proud of him because the humility
it takes for a teen to go. I was wrong. That
is so, so impressive. But it just took, you know,
me and a couple of people that helped me find
and just took people who cared enough to say,
we're going to fix this. Not I'm going to wait
for the cops to catch him because we both seen
that. We've both seen we've cut them out of the
cars before. We know what happens if you don't
intervene. But the problem is that the first
responders are left with that worst case scenario
because our lawmakers or community aren't willing
to step up and just say, we need to stop this
or we need to mentor our children and guide them
in a position where they're not being dragged
into gangs, for example. I mean, amen. That's
beautiful. And I think that there's something
where we all can uniquely do like that every
single day. I mean, not even that dramatic. It's
just caring. It's caring for kids. It's caring.
It's knowing. We live in a community that they
call it a big, small town. We had our kid driving
crazy like that. Took one phone call to his dad,
and that was it. But it wasn't to the cops. It
was to his dad. And so I've got four boys. Believe
me. And for really, you know, rambunctious, very
inquisitive boys I've had, you know, and and
it took I was grateful for the community when
things didn't go quite right. Yeah, that's the
problem with policing now, in my opinion, is
nobody stops and talks to people. You know, why?
If when I was doing my patrol and granted, I
wasn't in patrol very long, but when I was in
patrol. Shoot, I'd stop and talk to people, throw
a football with kids and do whatever you needed
to do, because that's how that's not because
it was all community policing was so big at the
time or anything else. No, I speak. Number one,
I was bored of driving around. And number two,
I just wanted to sit and talk to people and get
the story. And in law enforcement, that's how
we develop sources. And that's how we find out
what's going on in our communities and what's
going on in our neighborhoods. And they can say,
yeah, some guys just drive around like a jerk.
All right, I'll go find him. And then do I need
to give this kid a ticket? No, I don't. And so,
you know, a lot of people think that just because
the police are called, we're going to take somebody
to jail. That's not true either. You know, I'd
rather just sit and talk and solve a problem
with somebody, help them out where they can get
some help and go on our way. And I'm grateful
for that dad. He didn't say to you, not my kid.
He probably felt like we did. Like what? Oh.
You know, cause we, we're not everywhere all
the time, but I'm grateful for that dad who took
it seriously. And for you, James, who like sought
him out. Yeah. Yeah. I got a lot of admiration
for him and it was it. He had the humility to
go, you know, okay. Cause he's, I think he saw,
look, I don't want your kid to end up wrapped
around a lamppost. You know, I've seen it. It's
horrible. So I think once he realized it was
coming from a place of kindness, not just pure
judgment, then, you know, he kind of caved. So
that was it was, again, humility. And that's
like you said, that's what happens when you sit
down with a person, look them in the eye and
have a normal conversation and pull the emotion
from it. Yeah, for sure. And I think humility
is a huge thing in life. And it's you being humble
enough to say, yeah, we have a problem and I'm
going to go take care of it and talk to this
guy without flying off the handle, because how
many parents would just fly off the handle? And
so it's like you got to sit down, take a breath
and say, this is our problem. Let's have let's
have create a solution. It really wasn't that
big of a deal. I mean, at the end of the day,
I mean, that could have been tragic for little
kids could have gotten in the middle of that,
not just this teen. But it really wasn't that
big of a solution. It was quite. quite just common
sense of what to do. And you did it, but you
did it. That's what's big. Yeah. Well, I think
we've got a culture of pointing fingers rather
than what they say. When you point a finger,
the other three are pointing back at you. Like
we need to remember that, you know, if you want
to change the world, start at home, as they say.
Yeah, for sure. All right. Well, let's kind of
move towards the, you know, the, the area where
you wrote the book about. When did you find yourself
working with gangs in general? And then, you
know, what was the incident that took you towards
the white supremacist specifically? I was I was
on it. I was a police officer for, you know,
a year, a year, two years. And I had an interest
in working gangs just because I wanted, you know,
when I was in patrol, like I said, I pull I pull
a kid over. blatantly breaking the law traffic
law i pull him over start talking to him i did
not give him a ticket but then i gave him my
phone number i said if you need anything or if
you you know because i knew he was associating
with a crip set that was in this particular neighborhood
and he's a white kid and he had a nice car and
and so he'd drive him all over the place well
fast forward he got three rounds in the back
of his head because the crips wanted his car
And so that was my introduction in the gangs.
And so I went from there to another gang area,
and then I was eventually taken to the gang unit.
White supremacy was nowhere on my radar, nowhere
to be seen. And then one day coming home from
working a West Side City case out of Phoenix,
some West Side City Crips were shooting up police
officers, so we were helping Phoenix out. Driving
home, a motor went to pull over a truck. The
truck didn't stop. Then the guy bells from the
truck. And so I said, OK, I'll help out. I'm
right there. And he came running at me. It's
like game on. So I go down to tackle him and
he pulled out a nine, a nine millimeter handgun,
stuck it in my chest. And when he hit my chest,
it dislodged the slide so couldn't fire. And
then we ended up fighting over the gun. That
guy was a fresh cut skinhead. He was my my very
first introduction in a white supremacy. You
know, the kid that tried to kill me was my first
skin, which then made me upset because it goes
back to why are you putting me in this situation?
You know, you're you're white supremacist, but
I'm a white guy. Why are you doing this? Which
then turned into. Just there's something there's
a problem. So I started diving into the world
of white supremacy, finally being left in a parking
lot in a van while my. The guys on my squad,
they're all Hispanic and they can go work the
Tejano bars and stuff like that. But I'm stuck
in the van watching cars. And I said, I'm done.
I'm working white boy stuff and you guys can
sit in the van and I'll go to concerts and shows.
Yeah, but they left him in the van. Like one
time he's like, where are you guys? And he's
like, oh, we went home. We left two hours ago.
And he was in the van. You guys are jerks, man.
He'd left me in a parking lot in a sweaty van
for two hours while they left. It's like, all
right. But that was my introduction to white
power. And from there, it just morphed and grew.
And, you know, 19 guys in prison for murder,
attempted murder. And Tani and I shut down, more
Tani than me, shut down the most violent skinhead
crew in the world, in my opinion. I gathered
a lot of information. I didn't shut them down.
But again, nobody went to jail out of that. But
what we did was expose them for what they were
and what they were doing. And they disbanded
the group. Yeah, I think I did help you see things
different because we couldn't get law enforcement's
attention on it. And it was like, well, what
is the end result? What do you want to have happen?
He said, I want them to stop hurting kids and
people in our society, whatever he said. And
I said, well, there's another way. There is another
way. Not every time people have to go to jail
for you to have done something right. So you
just expose them. And they imploded from within.
What was the reason that they weren't immediately
incarcerated when one would assume maybe people
from other sects would have been? Well, the 19
guys I put away for murder, attempted murder,
I mean, there's a body right in front of me.
There's all these different things. The guys
that we, the group that we shut down, it was
an international crew, huge chapter in the UK,
Spain, Germany, huge chapter in the US, Canada.
And so what we did, because we formed this, our
organization, the Supremacist Intelligence Network,
and we were able to take all this information
from all over the world, from law enforcement,
but nobody could really, you know, yeah, we,
supposedly this is going on or this is going
on. And because, you know, white power wasn't
the squeaky wheel, you know, it wasn't what everybody
was into. It wasn't, they weren't doing drive
-by shootings. They weren't doing bank robberies.
They weren't doing all this different stuff.
But what they were doing is going out and doing
hunting trips and targeting, you know, minorities
or, or biracial couples or, or gay couples, whatever
it was. And so we were able to gather all this
information and we were able to work with the
people at the Southern Poverty Law Center and
we just exposed everybody for what they were.
And that embarrassed them because now how could
you go to work? It embarrassed their families
because their father or their brother or their
nephew was part of these organizations. And so
they just said, no more. And at first we couldn't
get anyone to listen. And it was so crazy to
me that it's like it's going on right here. We
have some these problems are just huge. And yeah,
but it kind of listened. And I mean, that was
their business. So they listened and they were
it was bigger to them that they they were even
surprised. But it goes back to your story about
you contacting the dad. You know, I called up
the guy and told him who I was. I said, if you
do not. Shut down this party. I will get every
law enforcement personnel I know to be in front
of your house and shut down and pull over everybody
coming and going until you are embarrassed and
you will have to shut it down. It goes back to
the whole thing. You don't talk to the people.
You know, you don't have to swoop in with a SWAT
team or drive a ladder truck through the front
yard. You know, just swoop in and make a phone
call. You know, see him at a show. You know,
I love going to shows, you know, I love going
to the shows. Unfortunately, a lot of these guys
go to and that's where we would get a lot of
our information. Just talk to them. What was
the difference or what surprised you when you
first started being exposed to these type of
gangs that maybe were different to some of the
other ones that you'd been studying before? Well,
first of all, the white power gangs, white supremacist
groups. You don't call them a gang, they're crews.
So the terminology is all different. But I asked
if there's no neighborhood. You want West Side
City? All right, I'll go to the West Side City
neighborhood in Phoenix. You want wetback power?
I'll take you to Mesa where wetback power is.
Whatever the neighborhood you want, whatever
the gang, they all have set neighborhoods. But
that's why we titled the book The Hate Next Door,
was because hate has no boundaries. And these
organizations talk to people in the UK. I mean,
the UK is the motherland to these guys. And so
they can go to the UK and they have contacts
and they have people they can stay at their homes.
We tracked a guy from the war skins from Arizona
all over the US, up into Canada, over to Italy,
up through Italy to Germany, to Spain, to the
UK, all on one trip. And he paid not a dime to
do it because he knew the people. And that's
how white power is. Is it the National Front
that's the kind of UK hub? Back, well, the National
Front was big when we shut down. National Front
was going on, but that was in California, so
much in California. No, that's American Front.
Oh, American Front. Yeah, National Front. Then
you had the British. Oh, man, it's been a while
since I even thought of these groups. You had
a biker crew, the Rats. They were part of all
of that. You had Combat 18 that came from the
U .K. and came over to U .S. When they came over
to U .S., they actually turned into Hammerskins,
and that's what started the whole Hammerskin
nation. Really? Yeah, and now the Hammers are
international, but they're not even as big as
they used to be. So, yeah, actually. The British
front. That was, that was the whole political
movement, right? Yeah. Yeah. National front was
political. And then the combat 18, I know a lot
of the worst football violence you discover it,
they were behind it and they didn't care which,
you know, football kit they were wearing and
just wanted to be the opposite of whoever they
wanted to fight. Well, I keep trying to tell
everybody, if you really want to go to a crazy
time, go to a neighborhood soccer game in downtown
London. And when these, you know, what was it?
Chelsea headhunters and these different groups
are playing each other. I mean, you guys block
off streets just so one team can go into it so
nobody bothers them. And the fans have to go
a certain way and there's big fences set up.
It's just craziness. I remember when we showed
law enforcement in the UK, Scotland Yard, right?
When we showed them, they were like, we don't
have... We don't have a problem. We've kind of,
you know, shut that all down. And when we showed
them what they had with pictures, they were all
over it, James. They were all over it. And they
really great police work because once they knew
they had a problem, they shut it down quick.
I mean, Scotland Yard would laugh at us because
we carry guns and they don't. And, you know,
that whole conversation back and forth. Oh, you
guys are pansies. You can't. And so we had a
good time, but when we showed them what they
had there, hey, can you come out and please teach
us? So we flew out to London. And it was, what,
two weeks later that everybody went silent, that
the communication between America and overseas
had gone silent because the Reds were after them.
They knew it. They made their presence known,
and they had the conversation, and it worked,
too. And you had members of Parliament involved.
I mean, it was ridiculous what all how deep it
really went. But I'm not just saying that it's
in the UK because it's everywhere. You know,
it's all over how politically tied these groups
are. And that's what that's I guess that goes
back to another thing I've seen with these guys
is they have political ties. There's no age limit
to hate. You know, you look at Richard Butler.
I was talking to him up till almost the day he
died. And he was an old man, but he was a freaking
hater. What are you seeing as far as a common
denominator? Because if you look at the origin
story of a lot of these other gangs that we have
in the States, more often than not, post -World
War II or post -Vietnam, you've got these ethnic
groups. Initially, they're just banding together
and protect each other. And then the toxic element
of... Again, the prohibition and drugs always
seem to seep their way in. And you look at obviously
Crenshaw, Compton, et cetera, in the 80s. It
wasn't about territory. It wasn't about protecting
each other. It became completely poisoned by
making money through illicit drugs. With that
being said, you're talking about men and women
who are holding down jobs. a different dynamic
than what you see in a lot of these other gangs
that we've experienced in the u .s well when
you yeah that's just a great question because
when you talk about your ethnic gangs is a gang
of your hispanic games your black games neighborhood
turf money drugs rap whatever any way they're
going to make money they're going to make it
so they're slinging dope doesn't matter they
go to their car shows they do whatever they have
to do but when you're talking white supremacy,
that's, that's not, that's a gang of ideology.
So you have, you have a, whether it's a religious
based ideology, a homegrown ideology, an ideology
taught to you by your parents, your uncle, your
brother, your friend, whatever it is, it's an
ideology of hate. And that's the main difference
between say, you know, what ninth street or 18th
street out of la compared to um an old war skin
is that is that ideology is what's in their head
so what is the difference between a young person
being dragged into one of those ethnic gangs
you know including white gangs and the kind of
white supremacist route that these young people
are taken into well Is there a difference? I
think it's that feeling of belonging, of family,
of all the things that we just talked about,
that dad that said, hey, son, we're not going
to act like that. If we're not providing it in
our families, our children are going to find
it somewhere else. And hopefully a coach gets
in there with a lacrosse stick or, you know,
a football or something. Hopefully that we have
guardrails within our schools and and different
things, communities for the families that are
not quite, you know, maybe they're not functioning
for whatever reason. You know, no judgment there,
but maybe we have the guardrails within our schools
and communities to help those children who don't
feel like they have family just to show that
they care. So they're not being indoctrinated
by. by something else yeah if you look at it
tony is 100 right they're they're looking for
a family they're looking for brotherhood they're
looking for something that makes them feel important
and so when you when you have you know this is
the crazy thing between a white gang and a white
crew skinhead crew whatever you want to call
them an ethnic gang is that to become a member
of the ethnic gang, you have to get jumped in
maybe. So three or four guys are going to jump
you in. Hey, you jump up after 30 seconds, you
hug each other and you say, we're great. On the
white side, you know, they don't, every now and
then they might, but usually there's no jump
in, but they'll ask you for your lineage. They'll
want you to do a little short writing about who
you are and what you represent. They were bringing
in polygraphs. They were doing, okay, see that?
Black guy walking out of Circle K, I want you
to go beat him down. That's how you earn your
laces. And so it's an ideology of I'm better
than you because I'm white. And once you start
doing that, then you got to look at the group
that they're getting become a member of. Are
they a member of the National Alliance? Are they
a member of Aryan Nations? Are they a member
of the National Socialist Movement? What exactly
are they a member of? And once you find that
out. Once you find that out, then you can break
down the ideology of what they're doing and what
they're about and what they represent. It's not
just I live I live on. It's not just I live at,
you know, the intersection of Mesa Drive and
Maryland. That's it's not that is that I am a
white man. And I am a white man who's proud of
my race. And I'm not going to let anybody come
in because God said. Within Christian identity,
God said that this world was created for white
people and we will take this world over. As a
mom, it never occurred to me to teach children
that they were better because of skin color and
not what they do or who they are. It was just
so foreign to me when this all came into our
home. It's just totally different. It's interesting.
If you look at a lot of the holy places, Jerusalem
and some of these other ones, all these different
interpretations of religion, like, well, this
is our holy place. This is our holy place. Maybe
it's just the holy place for human beings. You
know what I mean? This is what's so crazy. And
even if you look at British, you go back in my
lineage, my country was raped and pillaged by
the Vikings, the Romans, the Danes, the Gauls.
I mean, we've been slapped around and, you know.
penetrated by most of the countries in Europe.
So to say that you're some pure -blooded Aryan
race is ridiculous. So even when you reverse
engineer the United Kingdom, you go far enough
back, depending on what your belief process is.
If you're a kind of Jesus kind of a guy, well,
I'm pretty sure that takes you to the Middle
East. If you're more of an evolutionary guy,
well, now we're in North Africa. So yeah, I mean,
it's so crazy that people... They'll use parts
of these holy books or history or whatever is
that fits their own mythology. But then they'll
turn their heads at all the other stuff that
completely rebukes it. Yeah, even about like
we talked about this a little bit in our book
is, you know, the white supremacists or the white
nationalists were saying that Jesus was actually
from Cornwall, England, that that's actually
where he's from. Oh, he was the Shires. Is that
where he was born? The story is he was born in
Jerusalem, but when he was 12, his mom decided
to ship him over to an uncle's house in Cornwall
where he learned how to be a carpenter and he
learned how to do these things. And then he got
back on a boat with a seed of a tree and took
that tree over to Jerusalem and planted it. And
apparently there's one seed. One tree growing
in Israel that has roots back to the UK. That's
what. But that his mom is, you know, from the
UK or from that area, Cornwall. So they're trying
to get. So what they're trying to do is they're
trying to inject the white race into. Even Jesus
Christ. Jesus Christ. Yeah. It's enough to make
it. I mean, it's not to piss you off. It's just
like what white supremacy is taken from the Viking
culture. You know, whether you're an Odinist,
whether you're a pagan, whether you're Ossetian,
whatever you might want to be, the white supremacy
has taken the runes and made them their language
of hate. But the runic writing is amazing. I
love looking at it. I love the history of runes.
And I'm good friends with a guy who can decipher
and do all that. And it's great stuff. But within
the white supremacy world, they've taken that
and they created a language of hate. Jesus was,
you know, even with what you just said about,
you know, if everything's been pillaged and,
you know, upside down, whatever, no one's a pure
race anywhere. It's just exactly what you said.
I've had a conversation with a few people recently.
This is just something that I've started to think
about. When we talk about the evolution of mankind,
we always seem to look at innovation, technology.
So fire, the wheel, you know, the industrial
revolution, the computer. But if you actually
look at human history, I would argue the evolution
of mankind is kindness, compassion, empathy,
which is why these holy doctrines that they're
very genesis, the very nucleus of what they're
trying to tell us is don't be an asshole and
your life will be good. So, you know, this is,
I think, where this divisive rhetoric that we've
seen recently from both sides of the aisle, this
division. is an absolute step backwards. And
you're fueling the fire on white supremacists
or white supremacy and all these other extremist
mythologies by dividing a nation rather than
pulling them together. So I would argue if you're
driven by hate and you've been told to dislike
certain groups of people, that you are actually
sliding back in evolution. And if you want to
progress as a species or as a human being, leaning
into the kindness, compassion, empathy is how
we move forward. Yeah. And I'm in, in Tani, Tani
kind of gets on me at times for this, but I,
I'm all about calling them for what they are.
They're hypocrites. They're idiots. I mean, really,
you're really going to tell me that, that America
was built by white people. I mean, what we came
over and stole it from the Indians. I mean, really,
what, what are we talking about here? And so
it's, it's a hypocritical. ideology, which then,
but the problem is, is we have this, we created
this little formula of hate. And once you have
your ideology and you talk about your ideology,
that creates the rhetoric. And so you have the
ideology and the rhetoric. And anytime you insert
religion into any of that is a recipe for violence.
And that's exactly what's going on in the world
today is that we have created a recipe of violence.
And, and the way to stop it is to remove one
of those things out of that formula and create
a world of peace and love and joy and harmony.
Is that possible? Well, I think it happens in
our homes. Like I like kind of going back to
what you were saying is like, like I had this
really great, like little lesson that I planned
for our family of, you know, like I said, five
kids and it was all very, very, you know, little.
little things that we showed them, you know,
and I'm like, am I making any sense? Cause I,
it wasn't going over well. And Matt just said
to him, yeah, don't be a dick. And so above our
wall, sorry, mom, again, for this, it will, it
says D B A D, you know? So when they leave, it's
not return with honor or remember who you are
or anything. It's don't be a dick. And I think
that when you said, don't be an asshole, I mean,
that's what we're trying to do. When we see people
bully each other on a national stage or anywhere
else, when we're seeing all this stuff, we're
going against. It makes me cringe because as
a mom, if that was my child acting like that
within our own home, within our community, and
then especially on a public stage, that wouldn't
be tolerated. So I think you're right. Go back.
We're moving backwards. We've already seen where
this leads. When I look outside my front door,
my whole street is completely diverse. When we
go into that communal space, there are kids of
all colors and creeds playing basketball together,
swimming together, walking dogs, jogging, you
know, whatever it is. When I turn on the TV,
the last four years, apparently all white people
were racist. And everyone was for slavery still.
And then now we're back in the opposite side.
All Mexicans are rapists and murderers and a
very anti -immigrant mentality. And that's just
my opinion, but that's what I hear from these
two, divisive rhetoric. What is your impression
on the environment that not even young people,
adults too, that are being enveloped by and its
influence on extremism and these groups that
you've worked with? Well, obviously not all white
people are racist. I mean, I have four kids,
four boys, you know, white boys with that. They
hate that. I mean, it's just not true. And especially
with the way that that they've been raised in
the communities that we have. I mean, it's just
not a true statement. And Arizona's 30 percent
Hispanic. Obviously, you know, our neighbors,
friends and people that we dearly love are going
to be Hispanic. So they're not rapists. They're
good people. Just, you know. I don't mean to
digress with your question, but when I was in
grade school, we all loved each other. Because
at least 30 % of them of my grade school was
Hispanic and maybe sometimes years more. And
we liked each other because we liked each other.
Or we didn't like each other because we didn't
like each other. But it had nothing to do with
anything that was outward. It was what we found
inward. And people get mad at me for saying that,
but it's still true. It's still true. That's
how I grew up and that's how so many of us here
grew up. I think if we're if we're if kids can
do it, why can't we do it? I feel like people
have an agenda, you know, for us to all hate
each other. And that's just not it's not right
or fair. Well, that's the problem. Kids can do
it. But as as adults, we're so stuck in our stupidity
or or whatever it is that we don't want to make
the changes. And so what what I do is I go back
and if you if you chain back and look at things,
who do who do we blame? You know, you got to
find a source of the problem. And yes, family
is huge. We need to create families that don't
teach hate and don't teach, you know, because
we're white, we're better than you. We need to
find religions that don't teach that this is
a white people world. But we also have to and
I this is like a slippery slope type thing. But
we also have to elect people in the office who
aren't going to argue back and forth. across
this make -believe aisle. And so nothing gets
done. And then when you have kids and parents
who watch Fox News or CNN or MSN or whatever
news outlet they watch, what they're only hearing
is that one side that that one channel wants
them to hear. And so you got to flip back all
over the place to find the truth of what's going
on. But once the reality is, is once you look
at it, I'm embarrassed. to some of the things
I've seen come out of the Senate and Congress,
the arguing that's going on, the name calling,
the telling people to shut up during hearings.
It's ridiculous. And that is what our children
are seeing. And that is what our children think,
okay, to solve a problem. I watched Senator so
-and -so go off on Senator so -and -so. So I'm
going to go off on the kid on the student council.
It's like this. He destroyed him. He destroyed
him. And it's like, and that's not a good thing.
It's ridiculous. So I think that your question
was great because it makes you want to look at,
okay, where's the problem? How can we fix this
problem? But I think when you're dealing with
hate, it's a... I think we fix it by starting
with the families and we have to bring in, you
know, if somebody is going to join a skin crew
because they don't feel brotherhood. Okay. Why
don't you feel brotherhood at home? Why are,
why are you missing at home? You don't, you didn't
make the softball or the baseball team. Then
let's, let's create a place. Like you said, why
do I need to one team of 30 only playing 15 people
create another team, which then creates more
opportunity. And that's what it's all about.
In order to take somebody out, and it doesn't
matter, you want to talk black gangs, Hispanic
gangs, Asian gangs, whatever it is, white groups,
you pull somebody out, you create a way to pull
somebody out of that. But once you pull them
out, you better have something for them to do.
I do want to say, James, that I feel like we're
not political people. We haven't really been,
although we find ourselves in this space a lot.
But we very much are centrists. in this family
and i've got because this our families are so
large i've got extremes on both ends of this
so but i find that if we can talk about this
around the dinner table or maybe around a podcast
like this and actually be open and be allowed
to speak about some of these things you know
that's where we're going to find healing if we
can't find the healing and coming together around
our own dinner tables how are we ever going to
heal a nation and i and i gotta just throw this
out um Skin crews, some of the most violent people
are female. So it's not just the guy thing. This
is everything. This is the girls, the skin birds.
This is the dudes. I mean, we have a lady in
prison on death row because she wouldn't kill
the family inside a house in southern Arizona.
So it's just the way it is. It's not just a white
boy thing. You know, we have four sons and one
daughter and we have taught them from the beginning.
You know, we're not exclusive. Bring people in.
Let's talk. Let's have conversations. We're all
in this together. We really are. Absolutely.
I had a couple of interesting guests. Ron Stallworth
was on the show that The Black Klansman was written
about him, which was quite hilarious. I mean,
they kind of they made it slightly funny in the
actual film. But the fact that the. clam was
talking to a black guy the whole time i think
that the irony is hilarious but then daryl um
jenkins excuse me he actually in the film skin
he actually helped um get some people out the
skinhead gang so people's project say again he
was with one people's project yes exactly yeah
yeah yeah he's done great work and and the black
clansmen they've done great work you know it's
it's just Tony and Matt aren't the end -all to
be -all in the white power scene. Oh, it's on
the backs of giants always. There's a lot of
people that have created a way for people, not
just in law enforcement, because Daryl wasn't
a cop, but he's brought good and he's definitely
changed the lives of people. Absolutely. Well,
Daryl, when I asked him, I said about the...
How bad was it as far as the white power side?
He was somewhat optimistic about it diminishing.
What is your perspective on that? I think like
skin crews, I'd agree. I agree it's changing,
but the culture is changing, you know, because
now you've got organizations like Oath Keepers
or, you know, Proud Boys or whatever it might
be that they've taken these youngsters got to
go somewhere. If they're not going to go to prison,
they got to go somewhere. And so they've joined
these organizations and like the Proud Boys,
all the Proud Boys want to do is fight. But why
do they want to fight? They have all this rage
and aggression. And a lot of them are going against
the trans communities, the gay communities, the,
you know, the Hispanic and black communities.
And so they're just grown up skinheads. And I
know that because I know some skins that grew
up and became Proud Boys. Then you have groups,
the border militia groups. You have. All these
different types of organizations that have morphed
out of groups like the National Alliance or the
Aryan Nations or National Socialist Movement
or whatever group, you know, is in your neighborhood
or community. So they just grow up. So skins,
yeah, skins will always be there. The skin scene
is changing. You know, it's just nobody wants
to go to jail. The white power movement really
doesn't have a leader to stand up and organize
everybody. And I always say, you know, it's hard
to organize a picnic when nobody wants to bring
the hamburgers. But as they have new leaders
that come in or perceived leaders, it does embolden
the entire far right. Because it goes through
the rhetoric. It all goes back to the rhetoric.
So if you already have some of these feelings
and you feel like you have a leader, that's where
we have seen, you know, that's where the trend
of it is frightening. It really is. There's that
term virtue signaling, and I see that on that
side, this chess beating American flag waving
with the greatest country in the world. And you
take a step back like we're not a it's not a
competition. I know people love to say that,
but it's not a competition. But B. If you look
at the fact that we've got 70 % of our country
is obese or overweight, that we consume 75 %
of the world's opioids, that we have 25 % of
the world's incarcerated population, that our
children have to rehearse their murders in schools
in America. I think there's a lot of work to
be done. And I think that's what's so sad. And
to me, I don't understand why after all these
years of terrible leadership, that the country
hasn't come together and saying, why don't we
change the way we choose these people? They have
to be billionaires or millionaires and devoid
of ethics to succeed in this system. So we're
going to get the same thing. I always tell people
it's like going into a turd factory and expecting
a cupcake. You're just going to keep getting
the turds every four years. Blue tie, red tie,
blue tie, red tie. So if the country has devolved
through both sides of the aisle to the point
where almost three quarters of our country is
overweight. and or obese and therefore the population
to pull our first responders and military and
all these other imperative professions is shrinking
and our children are getting type 2 diabetes
you know an unheard of age then clearly the way
we've done it is not working and you set people
against each other as a distraction against the
real things that need to be addressed and the
violence on our streets is another massive portion
of this so that massive monologue aside If each
of you were king or queen for a day, how would
we change this so we can actually get leaders
that bring the country back together rather than
repeatedly divide? You can go first. Well, first
of all, I got the Thompson twins. If I was king
for just one day, that's kind of what went through
my head. So I got to get that. That's a loaded,
really tough question because, you know, we can
sit here and complain. But what are you going
to do about it? That's, you know, kind of what
I. taught the kids. I feel like we have to start
at the source and this is going to sound so trite,
but we do have to get back to loving each other,
to caring about each other. And so therefore,
if our leadership actually cares about us, truly
cares. then those decisions are going to be made
in more of a pure way and not a transactional
way. So I think that it just starts with basic
humanity. Do you love your neighbor? Do you care
about each other? And I don't mean to be so trite,
but maybe it's that simple. Maybe it starts within
us. Well, for sure. See? This is where we, I'm
like, we got to love each other. And he's like,
it's not always that simple. No, it is that simple.
And I can tell you this. Our youngest son played
on a football team that took state. They were
state champions. He's a middle linebacker. And
in the summer camp before the season that they
took state, the coach pulled everybody together.
And so the team had. White kids, black kids,
Jewish kids, Christian kids, a guy from the Ukraine
or Russia, some Middle Eastern bloc. You know,
all these different nationalities, all these
different religions, all these different colored
kids brought them together in a room and said,
nobody's leaving this room until you know each
other. Because how can you fight on a field unless
you truly know who you're fighting with? And
so, you know, of course, they they sat in there
for 20 minutes, everybody joking around, you
know, making rap songs or whatever they're doing
and being stupid. The coach come back in and
came back in and said, I don't think you understood.
You're not leaving this room until your brothers
were here for a week. If it takes that long,
you are not leaving until you know who your teammates
are. They went on. They lost one game all season
and they took state. The underdog through a whole
season and they took state. And it's because
the coach brought everybody together and said,
you need to know who you guys are with. And I
think that's exactly what we need to do. There
comes a time when we have to say, OK, the politicians
in office, whatever. But the kids coming up in
junior high, high school, college, we got to
get to these kids and say, you guys are the reason
why. There's hope. You guys are the future. I
hate saying that. Now I got that Whitney Houston
song in my head. I believe that children are
our future. But they truly are. But if you're
going to be picked on at home, you're going to
join a gang. If you're not going to get the love
and support you get at home, you're going to
do stupid things. And that's where it needs to
start. In my opinion. And I love that story because...
It really moved our child, our kid. He had no
idea what some of these kids had been through.
And it gave him a different appreciation for
our home and for us and for the entire community
around him. And I mean, what a wise coach. And
that coach cares. That coach showed all those
boys love. And you know what? He ended up winning.
We all won. The number of people on the show
and bearing in mind they've become firefighters,
cops, Navy SEALs, SAS, whatever, extremely successful
on that path that they found themselves on. So
many of them were at a crossroads. And a lot
of them, like we mentioned earlier, a lot of
people in uniform had struggles when they were
younger. Some of them had really bad. There's
more sexual abuse amongst men in uniform than
I had any idea until I started doing this podcast.
So many. But what happened was there was a mentor
or a few mentors. And so, you know, whether it
was a female history teacher or a football coach
or whatever it was that helped them turn that
corner. I think this is what we've got to understand
as a community. Of course, ideally in your home,
you know, the marriage will be intact. You'll
be loving parents. You'll be present. You'll
help raise your children. But as we know, you
know, like my I'm divorced. So my sons had to
bounce from house to house. There's, you know,
there's varying levels of security in our home.
So the next best thing is then to step outside
your front door and become that mentor in your
community, whether you're doing a law enforcement
or fire mentorship program, whether you're just
helping kids running a volleyball class, you
know, whatever it is. And I think that's what
we've got to understand. If you don't become
the mentor, then the gangbanger or, you know,
the sexual predator or whoever it is, the people
from the other side of the fence, they will.
So just like you said, your kids are going to
choose a mentor. We can control which mentor
is put in front of them. I love it. That's so
true because if you look at cops, and I want
to be honest with you, you're the first fireman
that I've ever talked to that I haven't yelled
at. That's not true. Half of our friends are
firemen. If I wasn't a cop, I'd be a fireman.
But, you know, in law enforcement, We walked
this line. But at some time, I turned right and
the next guy turned left. And the guy that turned
left went to prison. But I turned right. Cops
and cons. Tony says it all the time. Cops and
cons are so much alike. It's just one choice
in their life. They went one way or the other.
Well, I've asked him that. I said, what's the
difference? And he said, we made one choice at
a time. You know, that's the only difference.
And if we can stop the choices. or help people
choose we can't make happy choices as i tell
the kids yeah you know you know the happy choices
get good things sad choices get bad things and
that's it's simple teaching them from two years
old one year old but i just spoke to wait rachel
jeff's this morning she's rachel jeff says warren
jeff's daughter um we were talking she wanted
me to help her understand what was going on in
the world a little bit and she said sometimes
i think just really good moms would be better
leaders in our country and i i'm not sure she's
not right i'm not sure she's wrong i should say
well but the thing you gotta the in order to
change things you have to change things which
means you got to teach and then people need to
teach and go and do the things that are good
um I just don't see yelling at people in a Senate
hearing or anything else is worth. Did you see?
Are you from the UK? I mean, you can cut this
out. Yes. Today, the entire parliament was agreeing
with each other. Oh, really? Yes. It was awesome.
I was like, what just happened? I mean, how long
has it been that everyone agreed? agreed with
something whether you agree with what they're
agreeing with or not they all agreed together
though they disagree on certain certain issues
they came together on this issue and everyone
i think it was unanimous or close to unanimous
you know the support and i was like wow what
can we get done if we actually things that are
important we can agree upon see if that sends
a message to everybody we don't we don't have
to We might have different opinions on things,
but we can sure work together to come up with
solutions. And that's what's going on is that
I think politics has gone so far right and so
far left to these extremes that they're basically
meeting the right, the extreme left and extreme
right are basically the same thing. You know,
we had a skinhead tell us, if you really want
to know what skinhead life is like, watch Malcolm
X. And Matt always says, if you go far enough
left, you're going to hit the right. And if you
go far enough, right, you're going to hit the
left and it becomes the same. It's all the same.
But, but if as a mom, it'd be, you know, what
we would tell our kids if they're struggling
with, with classmates or teammates or whatever,
it's like, you know what, you're going to have
to put aside your differences and learn to work
together. That's what we would tell them. And
why is it any difference on a larger scale? I
had Sebastian Junger on the show. He wrote Tribe,
a book that every single human being should read.
And in that, he talks about, I think it was the
Iroquois tribe. And tribe is about tribalism
and working in the military and then struggling
when you leave and all that kind of transition
stuff too. But in the Iroquois, if I've got this
right, if it's the right tribe, they had a leader
for peacetime. and a leader for war two different
ones and i think usually the peacetime leader
was female and the war time leader was male so
exactly like you said you've got that kind of
mother element to keep people together and you
know caring about their well -being and then
god forbid you're attacked then maybe there's
another figure that's going to be a better fit
for that moment once peace is found again now
you transition back and i love that idea whether
it's the same person be able to switch whether
it's different people You do not need a divisive,
angry, emotional leader. I'm using air quotes
because I don't mean the word, you know, in peacetime
when really the biggest enemy to America is America.
What we stick in our mouth, the fact that we
don't move, the way we kill 40 ,000 of us on
the roads every year and no one bats an eyelid.
Like, you know, this is peacetime for us. So
we need that leader that pulls us together. And
we haven't seen that for decades, in my opinion.
Well, what did Abe Lincoln say? Abe Lincoln said
that this country will never fall from outside
sources. We'll kill ourselves. And how true is
that? Because whether it's the divisiveness in
politics, the school shootings, overeating, diabetes,
whatever it is, we're destroying our own people.
But I have to say, because I'm squirming not
saying it, I'm a proud American. I'm so glad
to be an American. I'm so glad of what we have
forged, what my grandparents have been a part
of, what makes us us as a country. And we need
to stick with each other and with our allies
and with the people that have shown love and
continue that, because that's what makes us great
as we work on the things that aren't working.
Yeah, well, I think there's nothing more American
than helping fix America properly. And Americans
stopping Americans dying, stopping Americans
suffering. So I think, you know, it's not doom
and gloom. It's a beautiful country, but it's
being corrupted and destroyed by, you know, private
entities that are self -serving. And it's coming
at the expense of literally millions of American
lives. I mean, if you can sleep at night and
you're the head of Philip Morris. or, you know,
a Purdue farmer that created the opioid crisis,
then, you know, how do you still even have a
job? You know, when there's millions of lives,
you know, literally the blood is on your hands.
So I think it's a nuanced conversation. But if
you truly love America, you'll fight to get rid
of the things that are taking our lives and making
people suffer. And I hate to put it back on the
white power movement, but you have to have, in
order for the white power movement, To gain steam
and momentum, they have to have a leader. Somebody
will stand up and take the heat, take the lawsuits,
take whatever comes their way. And I think that's
how it is for Americans. Who's going to stand
up and fight big pharma? Who's going to stand
up and fight against, you know, be able to stand
in the middle and hear both left and right and
make decisions based on everything coming together
and not just get yelled at and say, okay, well,
who's going to make me more millions when I get
out of here? You know, and that's we need leadership.
We need people who can do that. And when you
know something, I just keep wanting to I want
everyone to know that there is something they
can do. When you you may find yourself in this
position to fight like I was to fight hate. That's
crazy. Never, ever in my entire world would that
have been something that I thought, you know,
would happen in my life. You might find yourself
in that place. You might find yourself as a mentor
for kids. But when you see something, you do
something. every single time and when you know
something you do something so if you're big pharma
and you know what's going on you do something
it's it can be so big or little and it all propels
us in the way we want to go into greatness so
i feel like i'm just sounding so trite but i
really i know it works i've seen it work in my
own community and i've seen it work in my own
life it's if you know something you do something
i want to put one other question and then we'll
kind of um shift a little bit but while we're
talking about gangs as a first responder as a
firefighter and a paramedic i have watched firsthand
the ripple effect of drug prohibition you know
the the overdoses the the homelessness the sex
workers i mean all the things that are the fingers
of of the the crimes that come out of that you
know failed system And I had multiple people
on the show, but I went to Portugal and interviewed
the man who spearheaded the decriminalization
of addiction in Portugal. They freed up all their
resources to hunt the dealers and the smugglers.
And they went from the worst addiction. I think
I've got to look this up. I always say this either
in Europe or in the world, the worst, the worst
addiction to the lowest in less than 10 years,
because what they did, they took the. war on
drugs money, and they put a lot of it into addiction
counseling, mental health counseling, job creation,
housing, and they couldn't get everyone. And
this is this absolutist mentality some people
have, you know, they always point at the failures,
but a huge part of the, you know, the addicted
population, they got them back on their feet,
they got them working, they got them housed,
and they got them functioning in society again.
When I look at The root cause of all this violence
and destruction and death that I've seen in my
career, a lot of it comes from addiction and
driving these addicts into the hands of the underworld.
And you look at the border, you know, the empowerment
of the cartels, a lot of that comes from us,
the consumer. What is your perception on the
prohibition when it comes to the addict? Again,
I'm not talking about selling. I'm not talking
about smuggling, but addiction and what you've
seen. Would you change anything? And in some
of these different models that we've seen around
the world. Oh, I changed things 100%. Somebody's
addicted to something, whether it's sex, drugs,
gambling, whatever it might be, alcohol, for
a reason. So I think addiction goes hand in hand
with mental health. And I think the mental health
situation that we're in in this country needs
to be helped too. Those are the sources of some
of these problems. First responder to first responder.
We know people that whether they're firemen or
police officers who are addicted to some substance
because of traumas that they've seen and dealt
with that they're not taken care of. Why would
that be any different for some guy on the street
who's now homeless, spun up on something because
he's dealing with something inside? And that's
what needs to be fixed. I believe, you know,
we fix the problem that takes away everything
else. Yes, we need to stop the. the drugs coming
into the country. We need to, you know, do something
about the cartels. We need to do all this stuff,
but we need to do mental health stuff first.
I think. Mate, you've always been so tough on
the criminal on, on crime and the worth of every
soul is great. It truly is. And we do need to
be tough on crime. So, but what is the source
of the crime? Just like what you're saying. I
just think even from a supply and demand point
of view, if you actually, took the addicts into
the medical world. So what happened in Portugal
is when you take away the stigma and the fear
of being arrested and now having a criminal record,
and now it's even harder to find employment,
you take all that away. A lot of addicts came
and they asked for help because when, when they're
detained, they're just given an interview. They're
not even actually arrested per se. They're educated
on what the resources that are available to them.
And a lot of them will be like, yeah, actually
I do need help. And they've seen that. So this
is what's beautiful. But if you think about supply
and demand, if the addicts now don't have to
lean into the underworld, what does that do to
that entire trade? It weakens it dramatically.
And even the cartels, oh, well, they'll just
do avocados or human trafficking. Yeah, but it
will weaken it dramatically. It will start pushing
it the other way. And even the immigration problem,
if you can help make Mexico safer, you will have
few people trying to escape that country and
coming here. And, you know, it's a beautiful
country to come. I came from England. If they
want to come here, they should be able to come
here. But, you know, again, through the legal
route. But how many people in Mexico would have
stayed had it been an environment that was safe
for their family? So I think. Please. Yeah, that's
why that's why you need to. It's just not. Venezuela,
everywhere they're coming from. It's just it's
not a cartel problem. You know, now you're talking
politics and and and. In working with, we'll
just use Mexico. I love Mexico. Mexico is beautiful.
We love going down to Mexico. And it's working
with the politicians in Mexico so we can understand
each other. Everything starts with communication.
We can understand. We don't need to go up and
say, hey, we're going to blow up all the cartels
and then we're going to build a wall and then
we're going to stop everybody from coming in
and then we're going to do this and this. That's
not fixing the problem. You have to understand
what the problem is and where it starts and how
we can help you combat this problem. And that's
the only way things are going to get done. I
firmly believe it. How is law enforcement going
to be healthy? Deal with your crap. But how do
we deal with our crap when we come out and say,
I have a problem, and then they take my gun and
my badge and stick me in a basement? That makes
the problem worse, so nobody's going to come
forward then. So James, are you saying we make
it safe for people to say I need help? Yeah,
you decriminalize being an addict. So I'm in
pain. I use this substance in this case, but
I mean, it could, like you said, be alcohol.
I mean, we know that, you know, alcoholism is
a huge issue in fire and police. I've lost three
firefighter friends to opioid overdoses. So that's
in our profession. So it's kind of ironic that
there's pushback from certain groups. But yeah,
so if you are struggling with an addiction, you
immediately are given these resources. You are,
you are, you know, enveloped by the medical world
and you're given, you know, everything from got
a blanket on that, that methadone, you know,
there's methadone, there's all these things,
whatever it takes for you to get on that path.
But we all know that the root cause of addiction
is trauma. and probably earlier in your life.
So with the whole princess and the pea analogy,
if you can't find that pea under that mattress,
it doesn't matter how many mattresses you put
up, it's still going to be there. So what they
realize is if you take these people, they now
want to get help, which we all know is a big
part of this conversation. You can't get help
until you're ready to receive it. But then they're
given all these resources and there are still
addicts in Portugal that still, all they're given
is kind of safe injection sites. Um, there's
places where addicts can go in and, you know,
have their fix under, you know, under medical
supervision. So they're not dying in some alley
somewhere as well, but there's so many of them
that got rid of that addiction and now they're
functioning really well in Portugal. So you look
at Portugal, you look at, I think Switzerland
has a similar program. There's some other places,
one in South America that's doing really well.
This is happening. This is working in certain
countries around the world. And so to me, if
you're going to lean into, you know, Mormonism
or Christianity or Buddhism or, you know, whatever
your doctrine, all those prophets were amongst
the people trying to help them with their pain
and suffering. Yet we have this bizarre, you
know, compassionless view of addiction. And it
all comes from the origin story of the prohibition
comes from job justification and racism. If you
look at who Harry Enslinger was. I think it's
Anslinger. I think I've got his first name right
or wrong. But it was he was coming off the back
end of the absolute failure of alcohol prohibition.
He was now put in that position and he was the
one behind reefer madness and all that stuff.
So almost 100 year longitudinal study. We know
it doesn't work because our streets have got
more and more dangerous. So now there's no better
time, in my opinion, to actually look at a more
altruistic model that's worked in other countries.
and start cutting the head off the snake by taking
the addicts back into the medical community.
Interesting. As long as, I mean, in order to
do all that, you got to take the stigma away.
You know, the embarrassment factor, the shaming,
everything that comes from being an addict. And
it's, you know, it's sad. It really is sad. And
I think that we as a people, as long as... As
long as it's not affecting my family or me. You
know, unfortunately, that's how people think.
And you just got to change that. Yeah, I would
like to get to the addicts before they become
addicts. I mean, of course, that's like my Pollyanna
view of things so often. But how do we stop it
before it even starts? It's so much easier, I
think, to get in front of it than it is to fix
it. It's just like gangs, though. I want to stop
gang members from becoming gang members. So how
do we stop a kid from wanting to be in a gang?
Probably the same way we stop a kid from wanting
to be an addict. There's something missing. There's
something pushing. There's something drawing
them into that life. So how do we get them out
of that life? So maybe with addictions and with
gangs, we're dealing with the same thing. One
person chooses a gang. The other person chooses
smoking weed, then turning into heroin, then
whatever else it is. And so maybe we just need
to focus on. And it goes back to families and
schools, families and coaches, families and athletics.
And taking care of your own as much as you can,
too. And I know that that's not always, you know,
that's another Pollyanna way, but it's hard.
I mean, it's hard to be a parent. There's so
many fails and so many successes that we've had
as parents. But I would hate for anyone to think
that that's just an easy thing to do. I think
we've been a little bit honest about some of
our things today, but, you know. But they're
good, good kids. They're normal kids. Well, I
mean, you're talking about getting them before
they become an addict or a gang member. I think,
you know, there's that very kind of ivory tower
conversation about, you know, addiction and some
of these other things. Well, it's because these
broken homes. Well, yeah, that's what addiction
does. It destroys homes. So I think the way that
you get to the kids is you've got to. You've
got to try and heal the parents. So that that
I think is what's beautiful about this model
was initially, yeah, it's going to take all hands.
A lot of people that are in pain. But imagine
the next generation. Now you've put some of these
households back together again and you put more
mentors in the community. The need to fight addiction
20 years from now would be a fraction of what
we need to do at the moment. So it would be a
long term investment in our country. Oh, I just
love that so much. Where do I sign up for that?
I mean, that is just like, that's healing. We
just have to stop the arguing in D .C. to get
people really talking about things that matter
like this. We're not arguing about anything.
We're having a conversation. How can we protect
our kids? How can we protect our communities,
this country? And this is how. Take out trauma.
You take the trauma, you take out addiction.
But we all have childhood trauma. I mean, we're
all and it all it creates drama in all of our
lives. But it's like it's just really it's showing
up for each other. We're like my trauma is not
like your trauma. And so I can help you through.
I mean, it really is just it's that we keep going
back to this kumbaya type feeling. But is it
really? I think we might be making these problems
much bigger than they actually are. The solution
might be that simple. Absolutely. We just look
at how we used to be. We were small communities,
you know, and so we would talk about our traumas.
You know, I'm not saying that everything was
perfect and everyone talks about everything,
but you would have the ability to offload. I
mean, look at even historically, you know, when
warriors come home from war, you know, the war
dances and, you know, the kind of campfires and
storytelling and everything. That was what we
have done as a species for the longest time.
And now, you know, we've got cities with millions
of people. That within some people feel so alone
and depressed that they take their own lives
surrounded by 10 million other people. It's just
it's so backwards. So we've lost community, even
though we've swollen in numbers. Oh, for sure.
Yeah. All right. Well, speaking. I feel like
all this stuff is like, well, what am I supposed
to do? Well, you're supposed to love each other.
Really, it really does come down to loving your
neighbor. You can do that. There's something
that we can all do if it's even just a smile
to somebody. I mean, that starts changing a trajectory
of a lot of different, even inside yourself,
it starts to change. You know, it's just, I just
get so like, I can get bogged down with all of
these thoughts and things that you're saying.
And it's like, well, what can I do? Well, you
can do a lot. You really can do a lot. Absolutely.
Well, I want to get to your book just before
we do, though, we're talking about families.
I think one of the unsung heroes of the first
responder communities are the families. You know,
they're the ones that are left alone while we're
out doing what we're doing. Talk to me about
the kind of through line. as far as the impact
of what Matt was doing on you and the kids and
how you were able to kind of mitigate some of
those issues that will actually break up families
in some situations? You know what? First of all,
I had someone say, Matt always says, Tani brought
me back. She brought me back. But a really wise
man said, you wanted to be brought back. So I
really think that it takes, it wasn't me, it
wasn't him, it was us and the dynamic that we
had. And I don't, we're not any different than
anybody else. It just happened to be that we
both wanted, family was very, very important.
But I stopped, I mean, I don't know that everyone
can do this, but I stopped working. If he wasn't
home, if he worked so much. that i knew that
if i was going to raise the kind of family that
i wanted to i needed to be home with the kids
so i started doing things at home teaching voice
lessons and violin and piano that kind of stuff
things that i could do in the home and still
be with my kids so we that's not necessarily
the answer but we did put the kids first so i
think that that that was one of the things we
did i got to interrupt real quick because this
is important um out of our five kids We have
a son who is a mechanical engineer who owns two
or three companies. We have another son who is
going through finishing his residency for med
school, and he's going to be a pediatrician.
We have another son who's playing football in
Montana who wants to be a psychologist. We have
a daughter who works for an international...
company in their marketing department and we
have another son who's going to be finishing
his four -year degree at another he's still trying
to figure out what he's doing but he's but he's
in school he's played football and and and he's
figuring it out all this comes from one thing
what's the common source and all this i was gone
a lot you know and even when i was here i wasn't
here uh the common source is is is tony And I
will say it until I'm blue in the face or until
I'm dead and gone, that Tawny was the glue that
kept this family together. She's the glue that
helped me when I was doing my undercover work,
brought me back saying, Matt, no, those are our
friends. They are our neighbors. Those are good
people. She's the one who helped the kids get
their ran for student government or whatever
it might be. But she's the driving force that
get these kids in school because I just came
home and wanted to disappear. How did you punctuate
between at work and at home? Because I know for
us, you know, 24 hours at a time, we might have
been cutting a dead kid out of a car at 4 a .m.
And then you're walking through his dad at, you
know, nine. How were you able to kind of separate
the two? And then what were. you know coping
mechanisms or tools that you use to help you
be able to process it well that that's the problem
sorry no i james i i didn't i if i had to do
it again i'm not sure even though you know we're
looking back on it i'm not sure i would have
done it the same way or that i would tell somebody
else to do it i didn't know what we were doing
i just knew that my husband was not coming home
as the man that i needed him to be you know that
for the children and for me and for everything
that we had hoped and dreamed to do. So I just
started, I don't, I just, I don't know what we
did except for, we just kept, we just kept loving
each other. And then he would say things to me
like, you don't understand. And I would say,
and it's a good thing. I don't understand because
this is wacky. You know, it's a good thing that
I don't get whatever it is that you're supposed
to be understanding because it's not reality.
So I think we had those kinds of conversations
a lot. If he was outside, I knew that if he took
a long time to, once his car pulled up, if it
was a while before he came in, I knew that he
probably had had struggled that day. And so I'd
bring a baby out, you know, something that I
knew would soften him, you know, or me or whatever,
something that I could say, okay, that's out
there in this space is it's safe. Until he felt
safe to walk in. Yeah, because doing what I did,
I mean, I worked gangs. I was on call. I worked
undercover, constantly on call. I worked with
the FBI's Fugitive Task Force, never home. You
know, JTTF, never home. And so how do I differentiate
home versus work? I don't because I go to a grocery
store and see skinheads walking around or I go
to church and see a bunch of nationalists sitting
three rows down or whatever it might be. You
know, I went to church one day and saw a guy
I arrested earlier in that shift, you know, for
beating up his wife. And so there's there's different
things in law enforcement. It's hard to be off
because you're constantly on. But in this home,
it was safe. But in the home. Tani made the home
safe. And there's no judgment. There is no shaming.
There is no, but you, there's none of that. And
what got me back to doing it, Tani always has
something going on. And a lot of people think,
holy crap, but you know what? It was good because
whether we were outside mowing the lawn or raking
up or in the pool or going to Disneyland or going
to Lake Powell or going on a trip or going to
Glendale to her parents' house, whatever it might've
been, there's always something that would keep
my mind away from what's always on my mind. Well,
because you guys, you guys, I'll put you in there.
You think that that's the real world. No, this,
the real world is not my world or your world
is something in between that. So I don't know
if we're even answering your question. No, no,
you are. Absolutely. What about so you talked
about, obviously, you know, the trips and bringing
the baby. What about, you know, other elements
that help either of you kind of decompress? The
gym is the gym is working out. That's that helps
me decompress, whether it's in the garage or
at the gym with my boys, with my daughter, with
Tani, just going to the gym. pushing that physical
force of pushing things is my decompression to
this day is my decompression. And people ask
me this all the time. I'm not sure that I took
really good care of that kind of stuff. I don't
think I was ever thinking about it. I was thinking
about how do we keep this family intact and going
in the direction that we want it to go. And I
think that was my motivating, you know, I think,
I think sometimes it was just on. You know, we
just how do I do this? Because I only had so
many skills. I mean, I wasn't. And then I would
reach out to people. If I didn't know the answer,
I'd reach out to people that might might could
help us. And, you know, a lot of people were
in that journey with us. And we kept our faith.
I think that you have to. I mean, we tried to
focus on Christ. You know, we're Christians.
So we try to keep the focus there, not on religion,
but on Christ and in God and things that are
are good. So as we've touched on for quite a
bit, you know, religion can be a beautiful bringing
together of a community or it can be used for
division and hate. What would be your advice
to people as far as finding a place of worship
that align with the values that we've discussed
today? That's an amazing question. Man, I work
in the extremist cult religious. vein. And this
is something that they struggle with. And a lot
of them are having church at home, you know,
absolutely getting dressed up and finding a preacher
that they want to listen to and just sitting
down on their couches and having church. So I
think you got to do whatever works for you. But
what do you think? Well, I, I struggle because
anytime you can't put your faith in a man. If
you put your faith in Jesus Christ or if you
put your faith in God or whether it's Buddha
or whatever your faith goes to, if you keep it
on that, you're bound to find truth and you're
bound to find peace and comfort and an ability
to relax. But if you put your faith in the man
behind the pulpit preaching, that's not going
to do it for you. You just have to find what
brings peace and joy and love into your life.
Yeah, I've always struggled with the exact same
thing. You know, God told me like, did he? That
you had a conversation with God and he told you,
hey, tell all the people in your church that
I said this. You know, did he send a text? Can
I see it? Because I'm starting to struggle with
that. You know what I mean? I love the idea that
some people have said on here where. They take
little bits of each of these religions and they
make their own very personal one. And I would
say that's exactly what I do. You know, I don't
lean into one specific one, but I want to look
out my window and I see the sun and, you know,
the trees and the birds and everything. That
to me is God, like everything around. We're talking
about America being a beautiful country. It is.
It's absolutely stunning. and so you know taking
the wisdom that's been the common denominator
that's been passed down for millennia it doesn't
even have to be just in the religious side all
the great minds that are preaching the same kind
of thing kindness compassion community you see
these common denominators and i would say you
know if what you're being taught if the community
you're surrounding yourself with you know embraces
those And you're probably in a good place. But
if they're talking about God loves all of you,
except the gays, then maybe you need a question
where you're where you're standing. Yeah. And
I I'm not defined by my religion. I would want
to be defined by goodness, kindness, grace, all
the things that you just said. That's what I
hope defines me, my family and the people I love.
And I think that's what we should be working
towards because we're not always there. But 100
percent. All right. Well, that was love. Let's
talk about hate for a second. Your book, The
Hate Next Door. What made you decide to sit down
and write it? Therapy. When I retired, I had
all these things going through my head, all these
different stories and instances and stuff going
through my head. And Tani said, just write it
down. It goes back to not knowing necessarily
what to do and just saying, well, you know, let's
do something. I knew I needed to get out of his
head. And that started the whole thing. And then,
you know, I mean, I would write it like a police
report. You know, on this date, intersection
of this and this, this, you know, white male
wearing whatever. And then Tony just made it
better. She put, she put. The human, human, Matt,
nobody wants to read this. And then she made
it better. Yeah, but I never thought we were
going to like publish anything. I just thought,
you know, it would be good for the kids to know
where they came from and what had gone on in
our home and that kind of stuff. Because we kept
so much, we made this home about love and not
so much, that didn't always creep in. But I wanted
them to know what was going on as well. Um, yeah,
but his was like, it was a cold, dark night on
the 56th street in Maine. And I'm like, This
is funny. Cause I spent a lot of cold, dark nights
at 56th and Maine. But it was like, you know,
it's like, no one cares about that, but it was
so detailed that it was easy to make something
out of it. Did you find it cathartic when you
wrote it? I tell you why it took me, there's
some parts of it that took me a long time to
write. because you couldn't, I had to, I had
to go back into that mindset. You know, I had
to go back into that. And that's the type of
stuff that I don't think any first responder
wants to go back into the things that has caused
trauma in his life. And that's why it was good.
But I don't think it brought us closer together.
I mean, it has now, but at the time, I mean,
it was like, look, I'm not helping. I'm not even
wanting, you can write whatever you want, but
I'm out for a minute. Or he'd say, I'm out. Yeah.
So because I'd ask him questions that he didn't
want to he didn't want to go back into right
then. And what's crazy is when we started writing
it, I took like a notepad and I was writing everything
in a notebook. And so we went down to Mexico,
spent a weekend at a place in Mexico, and I read
it while Tony typed it into the laptop. And that's
how we started the whole electronic thing. And
it was. When you read it, when I read it, it
makes me stop and think, man, that was jacked
up. And it makes me grateful that, number one,
that I'm sitting here, and number two, that I'm
sitting here with Tani. Because it's just the
crap that we are put into and the traumas that
we're put into. No human being is... Should have
to go through the traumas that I'm sure you've
been through, that I've been through, other first
responders or military has been through. But
our brains aren't wired for it. And that's why
PTSD affects the brain the way it does, because
it rewires your brain. And now we have to walk
through it to get it wired back. And that book
was the beginning of rewiring my brain. And you
know, James, you talked about something, you
know, I would take Matt, you know, what did you
do? I would take him to this place in Mexico
that our cell phones would not work on purpose.
Like when we walked through the first place,
the first time Matt said, really, Tony? I said,
really freaking kidding me, but it is our favorite
place. And that's where we were. And when Matt
was reading that to me, he was, he's, I'm going
to tell this. He started sobbing. And I knew
that we were at a place where, because this is
a man that had forgotten how to cry. And so,
and I found, you know, as we talked to other
first responders and things, that's not unusual.
So as they go through, he had forgotten how to
cry. And as he started to read some of that,
it was like, oh, I realized how important this
was, you know, not just for us as a couple, for
him, but it might help other families, other
people that had been. or are going through this
kind of thing to know they're not alone. Absolutely.
Yeah, it's interesting. I wrote my second book
last year and the writing was kind of cathartic.
But again, there was one scene I would always
tear up. I'd always start crying when I was writing
it and it was so bizarre. But it was when I read
the audio book that was the really hard part
because I think when you do write, it's kind
of flowing out of you. But when you... do the
audio book now you're really having to relive
it because you obviously want that emotion in
your voice so the person listening can understand
what you're talking about but that that actually
was was was rough you know that sent me back
a little bit for a while yeah it's um my worry
with doing an audio book is that i'm just gonna
say this is such full of crap this is what really
happened these guys are all idiots and it's just
but but you know what i think As I look back
on my career, you know, the hate next door. The
hate next door spans so much of my career, but
there's some there's a lot of other stories that
aren't even in the book that are just as traumatic
as as as things in the book. And it's but I mean,
it's the stuff that we can't get away from now.
But if you guys went through it. You should,
it should, hopefully we can help others through
whatever they're going through as well. And that's
when I finally decided, okay, maybe this is something
we should go ahead and publish. So at first I
was like, I'm not putting my family out there.
I don't need anybody to know all this, but we
hope that it would help people and that help
children and coaches and teachers and people
to recognize the signs of indoctrination so that
we can save kids before they even get into this
mess. One of my goals is that the psychology
departments at universities would use it for
their students, you know, so that we can learn
what happens to first responders when they do
things. What is it really like to be undercover?
What is it like to go from a Klan meeting to
working undercover in a gay sex club? You know,
it's just in a matter of minutes, you know, and
so it's just. The things that we do, it's like
going from cutting somebody out with the jaws
of life to going and giving CPR to a baby with
SIDS. You know, and it's just, it's stuff that,
I mean, even to this day, every time I think
about it, I get upset. The title, The Hate Next
Door, that's a kind of nod to the pervasive nature
of this particular issue, because as we touched
on, you know, if you were born in this part of
town and this apartment complex, we've all seen,
OK, you're a crip, you're a blood, you're an
MS -13, whatever you are. But as we've talked
about with white supremacy, it's more of an ideology
that can be pervasive through any community.
Yeah. And my my original. title was why but when
we change it to the hate next door it just it
brings everything in could be your teachers could
be your pastor could be your attorney your doctors
your anybody your neighbor or whatever it is
if that's how close hate is to to where we are
absolutely well i want to thank you so much um
if people want to buy the book where are the
best places online Anywhere books are sold, Amazon,
Barnes & Noble, that kind of thing. It's anywhere
books are sold or even source books. Brilliant.
And if people want to reach out to you, message
you, follow you on social media, where are the
best places? You can get me on Facebook. You
can get me on Instagram. You can email me. You
can do whatever you want. I'm not that hard to
find. Get me on LinkedIn, whatever. We're out
there. We're able to be found. And by good people,
please, you know, no, I don't need any more hits
on me. So, you know, let's keep it, let's keep
it with positive. Absolutely. Well, I want to
thank you both so much. It's been such an interesting
conversation. Of course, we could have, you know,
dived into all the cases and undercover world,
but to have the backgrounds that you guys have
and to have this kind of, you know, kindness,
compassion, philosophical conversation, I think
it's been. beautiful to be honest so thank you
so much for being so generous with your time
and coming on the behind the shield podcast today
oh thank you so much james thanks for the work
you're doing