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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you
think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome
to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,
my name is James Gearing, and this week it is
my absolute honor to welcome on the show veteran
firefighter Di Alexander. Now, one area that's
rarely discussed when it comes to the EMT and
paramedic side of our profession is how we deal
with death, whether it's working a code, whether
it's going to someone who passed away during
the night. We have very, very little training,
and that in itself can turn into moral injury
and even mental health challenges. So in this
conversation, we discuss a host of topics, not
only DAI's own journey into the fire service,
the 343 Hero Challenge that we both do, and other
areas of firefighting, but we take a deep dive
into the world of codes and death notifications.
Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment,
go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show. Leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
well over 1 ,000 episodes now. So all I ask in
return is that you help share these incredible
men and women's stories so I can get them to
every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. So with that being said... I introduce
to you, Dai Alexander. Enjoy. Well, Diana, I
want to start by saying thank you so much for
taking the time and coming on the Behind the
Shield podcast today. Thank you so much. Thank
you for having me, James. It's an honor. So where
on planet Earth are we finding you this afternoon?
Well, today is my first day off shift. So yesterday
was a pretty good day, but it was busy at work.
And I have a small business that I also operate
on my off days. So today I'm doing that and I'm
hanging out with my dogs. hopefully having a
pretty low key day. I play a lot of pickleball.
So that's on the agenda today. That's part of
my mental health plan and my physical fitness
plan these days. And so that's what I'm up to
today. I saw the pictures and I wanted to ask
you about this. For me, having played tennis
in the past, but never at a good level, kind
of a. kind of advanced beginner at most. It is
a very frustrating game because it's hard to
really get a good rally in the game of tennis
unless you're both great, great players. And
what I've seen with pickleball is it seems to
get people that maybe aren't, you know, skilled
at the beginning to still be able to move around
and have good rallies and enjoy the game rather
than go get your tennis ball from the other side
of the field because it went over the fence.
Talk to me about your journey into pickleball
and then what have you seen as far as the benefits?
Yeah, so I think it has a lot of really amazing
benefits. First of all, it really boomed a lot
right after COVID. So you had a lot of people
who had been, you know, hunkered down and scared
and isolated for a really long time. And then
out came this super social sport that almost
anybody could play. You know, I think when I
first started playing, a lot of people thought,
you know, and I would say pickleball, first of
all, it's kind of a funny word, you know, in
terms of sports, it doesn't sound. Super exciting.
And then lots of people would say, oh, that's
an old person's sport, you know, or whatever.
But I always caution people, those old people
will beat you up when you get out there. But
it's really wonderful because it's a very social
sport in the sense of no matter what level you
are, whether you're a beginner or not, people
welcome you in to play on the court. And then
also because there's all different levels of
athleticism. Whether you have beat up knees and
shoulders from tennis or any other sport is really
super encouraging for people because no matter
your level of athleticism, your physical ability
or level of fitness, or even knowledge of the
sport, people welcome you in. And so it's super
encouraging for people because it gets them physically
moving. Obviously, most courts are outside. which
is super helpful too. So you get people outside
in the sunshine, you know, in the fresh air and
they get out there and get their bodies moving.
They're having fun and now they're socializing
and all of which I think are super, very healthy
things and very healthy, not just for us physically
and cardiovascular speaking, but for our minds.
And so it's created a lot of really great relationships
and friendships with people. And I think you
can talk to a lot of people who will actually
tell you that pickleball saved their life. Right.
And then whether that was because they were coming
out of, you know, COVID and being isolated for
so long. Lots of people experience a lot of depression
and darkness in their life. And this really brought
a lot of light to them. And so it's been pretty
cool. You know, my journey with pickleball started
when I was same thing. I had worked in our emergency
operations center for most of COVID. And so I
wasn't isolated and away from people, but I was
working all of the time. And so my normal regimen,
I was doing CrossFit then. My normal regimen
for CrossFit was null and void because none of
the gyms were really open. And those machines
and routines and wads were not really readily
available, nor was my ability to do so schedule
-wise with so much work. And so I had gone out
to Arizona, which is where I'm going to retire
to. I had gone out to Arizona and my aunt plays
pickleball out there and she invited me to play.
And I said, oh, you know, I don't know what this
is, but OK, I'll go do it because, you know,
I'm pretty competitive. I'll play anything. And
went out there and I liked it a lot. Revisited
it months later when I went back out there again.
And then the next time I went out there and we
went and played, I said, you know, I really love
this sport. And I think if I got. little bit
better I think I would love it even more so now
here I am part of the pickleball cult if you
will we're a pretty crazy group of people so
so now I do tournaments and all kinds of stuff
and it's a lot of fun and pickleball is a wonderful
sport to get people moving and socializing who
even if you don't have you know, that hand -eye
coordination yet or a racket or paddle sport
in your past that you can usually pick up on
pretty quick. And people will be very accepting
of that. So there's people on every levels playing
all the time. I had the same observation. It's
so sad that, you know, when we went through COVID,
there wasn't an analysis at the end like, okay,
what did we do well? What did we do poorly? how
do we learn from the mistakes and make some changes?
And I think, you know, arguably a lot of things
that people were told, stay inside, don't be
around people, you know, don't exercise, watch
TV, get fast food and alcohol delivered to your
house, binge watch Tiger King. We saw, you know,
what happened. It wasn't a good outcome. And
so it's taken a while, I think, really people
to kind of start to really trust coming outside
again. That's, I think, at least a year after
COVID had passed was when people really started
to go. And then what I love about the pickleball,
it kind of reminds me of CrossFit. So we've both
done it for a long time. You know, when you're
talking about snatches and, you know, bar muscle
-ups and some of these things, they're very,
you know, complicated movements. This is why
athletes that are very good at that spend their
whole career just working on those few movements.
And so it's very intimidating. But if you get
a firefighter and you just give him a sandbag
and say, okay, walk to that cone and back, or
push that sled to the end and back. it removes
that intimidation. I think it's the same, you
know, with the general public, what pickleball
is doing is saying, look, you don't have to be
the best in the world. You know, we're not trying
to win the world championship. You just want
to get out there and play again. I think we've,
we've lost that as a culture. You know, if you're
first, you're last and all this bullshit, like
it's okay just to go out and play. This is why
games were invented in the first place for fun.
Yeah. And what I love about it is, you know,
I think what a lot of people just need to do
is, you know, at least every other day, go out
and intentionally move your body. And, and this
just allow, this is just a platform to do that,
you know, and I relate pickleball to CrossFit
in the sense of, it's kind of a funny sense,
but when I first started playing. You know, I
would judge a book by its cover. You know, that's
my competitive nature to look at that person,
size them up real good and determine if I thought
I could already whip their ass before the game
even started, you know, or before the WOD started
in the sense of CrossFit. And I was very often
humbled when somebody who was. you know, larger
than me. You know, maybe they had many more pounds
than I did body fat wise or size wise. And I
was humbled very quickly when I learned that
they were, regardless of the outside of the book,
that they still beat me or they were stronger
than me. And so the same thing kind of happens
in pickleball where you look at somebody, you
think, ah, they're older, you know, we're going
to dominate this game. And they humble you real
quick. So it's a fun sport for that. And I think
being humbled in all aspects of life is really
important. 100%. That's why I do jujitsu. Yeah.
All right. Well, let's start at the very beginning
of your timeline then. So tell me where you were
born and tell me a little bit about your family
dynamic, what your parents did, how many siblings.
Okay. Yeah. So I am an actual. original Floridian,
not just Florida, but I was born here in Orlando.
So back then it was, it's Florida Hospital, excuse
me, AdventHealth East now, but back then it was
Orlando General Hospital. So I'm an original
Orlando O -Town girl. Mom and dad, my dad left
when I was 15 months old and my mom raised myself
and my two older brothers. I grew up on the east
side of town. So if anybody's familiar with Orlando,
I grew up in Bonneville, went to Bonneville Elementary
School. I went to Union Park Junior High, then
it became middle school. And then my mom moved
us out to Titusville and I went to Astronaut
High. And I really didn't love Titusville that
much. So as soon as I had the opportunity to
move back to Orlando, that is what I did. So
I've pretty much lived in Orange County for the
most part in Orlando and Orange County for all
but about three years of my life. When you were
in the school age, what were you playing and
doing as far as sports and exercise? You know,
I was on the swim team for a little while in
high school. My middle school also had a pool.
So there was a lot of swimming that was going
on. My grandfather was very close with my grandfather.
He had a pool. So every summer I did a lot of
swimming. He taught us how to dive and all kinds
of stuff. And so I was on the swim team in high
school for a small amount of time. And I started
realizing they were boys. And when I discovered
boys, I discovered that the boys on the dive
team, looked a little bit better than the boys
on the swim team. So I went over to the dive
team and that's what I did mostly through high
school was the dive team. And I played a lot
of other sports just on the side and for fun.
And then I played a full contact football as
an adult, which was a lot of fun. And then otherwise
I've just been into, you know, for about. around
eight to 10 years, I did competitive bodybuilding,
then got into CrossFit and then COVID and then
pickleball. When you talked about changing to
the diving team, when I was young, we had a CDT,
which is craft design technology. And it was
like the woodworking stuff. I grew up on a farm.
I was good at mucking out stables and, you know,
stacking bales of hay, but I wasn't actually
a craftsman by any means. So I ended up doing
home economics because all the girls were in
that class. So I totally understand what you're
saying. I love that. I wish they still had, I
think they do in some, in some schools, but you
know, they took a lot of that. out of schools,
the home mech, the shop, workshop mechanics.
There's a few schools that still have them, but
I think probably when we were in school about
the same time, it was a requirement. You couldn't
finish high school without going to home mech
and making a pillow. There's a shift. I just
posted a New York Times article a few weeks ago,
and it's saying that the Gen Zs are going into
the trades, and it makes perfect sense. The same
reason why we have a recruitment crisis. They're
looking... at all these jobs and they have all
the information now this is 2025 and so they're
looking at college like so wait a second this
is fifty thousand dollars worth of debt four
years of my life and i get a piece of paper that
doesn't guarantee me a job that sounds terrible
one year and i can be a welder you know one year
i can be a firefighter and so this is what's
exciting about This kind of period is that people
are looking to go in the trades The problem is
they're looking at the fire service and they're
seeing 56 hour work weeks mandatory overtime
cancers divorces and so Until we fix that, they're
looking at this going, that doesn't seem good.
And we're seeing the complete evidence of that.
Young people are not flocking to the fire service
anymore. So we have a beautiful opportunity to
turn the ship around, but we've got to address
the things that are broken. We talk before I
hit record. I won't get on my soapbox, but the
24 -72 is a huge part of that to show them, hey,
we actually care about you. We want to invest
in you. We want your marriage to stay intact
and your kids still talk to you. So we're going
to take care of you. Yeah, very important. All
right. I think, you know, one of the things that
I'll mention this again later also is that, you
know, and I know you know this probably have
better, more up -to -date statistics than I do.
But when we start getting into firefighter and
first responder fatalities or suicides. It's
quite astounding. And that even more so makes
me wonder why, honestly, anybody would want to
come into this job if they knew that. It's terribly
sad because I think this is a very personally
fulfilling career. Can be. Yeah, 100%. I mean,
we work together. I mean, just working in, for
example, Battalion 4 in Orange County, you are
going to get fires and all kinds of crazy, crazy
calls. And you're truly going to make a difference,
arguably, to some of the most desperate people
in society. So this is what's so sad is the calling
is amazing. But people say, oh, it's what you
signed up for. It's like, no. When we went to
fire Academy, we went to EMT school, we went
to medic school. They weren't talking about mandatory
overtime. You know, they were talking about the
job itself. So we have an amazing opportunity
to go back to that. We really do, but we have
to fix the things that are broken. We just haven't
evolved. And yet the calls have just gone through
the roof and the staffing has stayed the same,
arguably come down even. Yeah. The classic response
you would get is the best job in the world. What's
sad as well about the suicide statistics, people
will quote what's actually studied. And it's
like, OK, I understand that. How many people
do you know personally that we've lost to suicide
or overdose? And they said died suddenly in the
announcement. They weren't counted. How many
people get to retirement and then they take their
own life? None of us are counted in statistics
once you leave the fire service. So I would argue
that the numbers that we see are the absolute
tip of a massive, massive iceberg, which makes
it even more startling. Yeah, I agree. 100%.
All right. Well, then when you were in the high
school age. what were you thinking as far as
career aspiration was it already the fire service
was it something else no definitely not um in
fact my mom was a nurse my grandma was a nurse
so i and in fact every halloween when i was a
kid i dressed up as a nurse because that's what
i thought i was going to be and so um once i
got through high school i really didn't i really
wasn't uh that young adult that thought i knew
what i was going to do i really um i wasn't until
about 25 when I had my son that I started thinking,
I think I was supposed to be doing something
with my life and I hadn't done it yet. Obviously,
when you're looking at a child that depends on
you, it was the ultimate reality check for me
that I needed to do something more with my life.
And I knew I had a calling. I just had not stepped
into it yet. And I don't know that I would have
been, for me anyways, any younger than that,
that I would have been emotionally and mentally
prepared. to be the patient care provider and
the steward to the people that I was when I became
a firefighter paramedic. So I don't know that
I would have been able to provide that same love
and care and compassion that I share with people
now. I don't think I would have been ready for
that at 22 or 23. But I decided that I was going
to go to EMT school first. And so I went to EMT
school and I said, you know what, let me go to
EMT school and see if I can handle all these
cool things that I see on TV that look like,
you know, what I'm going to do for the job. And
so I went to EMT school and I loved it. But I
learned right then when I did my clinicals and
my ride alongs, I learned instantly that I was
not going to be a nurse. I at least knew that
my place wasn't in the hospital, and I learned
that I loved pre -hospital care. I loved being
that first person with patient contact. I had
done my turns in the ER for my clinicals, and
there were a lot of really angry nurses. i just
remember thinking like i i don't think that these
i don't remember i think i remember thinking
that it didn't seem like any of the nurses are
very happy doing their job which sent a very
clear message to me that maybe this is not what
i want to do because i what i was coming in for
is happiness you know and and then i went and
did my ride -alongs i did some with the city
of orlando i did some with orange county And
I loved it. I instantly fell in love with the
camaraderie at the station. I think a lot of
that's because I have two older brothers. So
I was really used to that environment of a lot
of guys and that camaraderie and the jokes and
stuff. I absolutely loved that. And then when
we ran calls, I loved being that initial patient
contact care person. That kind of makes you feel
like you come in, swoop in and save the day and,
you know, bring the calm to the storm. I really,
really love that. And I knew in that moment after
the clinical and the ride along, I knew exactly
what I was supposed to do with my life. I had
not chosen my exact pathway at that point, but
I had a lot of friends in the fire service and
for another adjoining county that I was good
friends with who said, you know what, you should.
you know go to standards and then go to medic
school and i was i knew i was already going to
go to mexico i had already taken my prereqs for
it as well and i said you know what let me um
let me look more into the fire service and then
i i discovered that i also loved the physical
aspects of the job the challenges of the job
i also loved what seemed to be what i would call
as a greater sense of equality Right. So the
way I compare it is the game of golf. I'm not
a very good golfer, but I'll golf with my brother
every now and then for fun. And, you know, I
tee up a little bit closer than he does right
in the game of golf. And I never liked that.
I always wanted to know that I had to shoot the
shot just as good as the guy did, you know, to
get hired or to get the job or for the position.
So. I felt like the fire service, you know, like
I had to take the same test the next guy did.
I had to do all the same things. I had to carry
the same weight, you know, as the other male
or female that was competing for the same job.
So I really liked that about the fire service,
and I loved the physical challenges that I thought
I was going to face doing the job. And so I said,
let me go put in some applications and see if
I can get a job. And I had a couple in. I went
to standards, got hired, and went right to medical
school. Going back to one thing you said about
the nurses first, when I kind of look firstly
at the shifts that they work, again, people talk
about, oh, maybe 12 should be better. Nurses
are a perfect example. Do they look happy? Do
they look healthy? No. So that's not the answer.
But I can also imagine, I hated the hospitals
too. I actually had my prereqs ready for do the
PA program at UF. And then I was like, nah, that's
just not the right fit for me. But you think
about the futility. In most things in life, whether
it's a business, whether it's a military mission,
you are moving towards a goal. But I can't imagine
spending 20, 30 years in nursing. And despite
all of your efforts, the people that walk through
the doors get sicker and sicker. And there's
more and more of them. You know, the obesity
crisis is getting worse and worse and worse.
You know, the overdoses. So it's no wonder that
our medical professionals get burned out because
despite all their hard work. it doesn't get better.
Right. Yeah. Yeah, I knew pretty quickly it wasn't
for me. From all the clinicals that I did, and
even when I went to medic school and did clinicals,
and then I went to UF and took my critical care
and did clinicals, there were not very many happy
nurses. So every time I had to do them, it was
just a confirmation that I was choosing the right
path. Well, you talked about the kind of equality
element as well. With you having been bodybuilding
and CrossFit, what is your perspective of fitness
standards in the fire service? For me, we went
through school. I don't know if you went to Mid
-Florida Tech. That's where I went. It was called
minimum standards. That's literally what they
label our certification. And at that point, you're
asked to do the firefighter challenge and all
these things that are extremely taxing. And then
you go into the profession and then you're told,
oh, there's no standards. And then when people
try and talk about it, oh, you're trying to take
our jobs. I, James Gearing, have a massive problem
with that, that we are asked to do incredible
things, sometimes physically, and that we have
no standard. But an ocean lifeguard or a special
forces soldier is held to a very high standard.
So what is your perspective on that whole concept,
meeting the bar at the front door, regardless
of gender? Yeah. So the reason why I think that
happens first and foremost is because the industry
is at such a demand for people that if we maintain
a standard, we won't be able to hire anybody.
I mean, it's sad, but I think that there's not
enough emphasis. on physical fitness and the
fire service and holding true people truly accountable
for that. And having those requirements, you
know, I mean, for us, we, if you were hired by
a certain date, you don't even have to finish
a particular basic baseline test within a certain
amount of time that everybody else does. And
so there's just no standard. you know, we can't
hold people accountable for that. I've talked
to other people in other departments outside
of Florida that they have like body fat tests
and everything, and they'll terminate you if
you don't meet this criteria. So I know that
it exists. I don't know how they do it. And we
can't, I don't know if it's the size of the department
that makes it such a big deal, but there is definitely
not enough emphasis and standards being held
accountability. to being of any sort of physical
fitness, right? That doesn't mean you have to
be into CrossFit. I mean, I love CrossFit because
I like the fast pace. I'm not really a yoga person,
you know? Like, I really like the fast pace,
you know, pick up heavy shit and throw heavy
shit around. I like that kind of stuff. And I
have a very competitive nature. That doesn't
mean that that has to be what a firefighter looks
like. You know, it can be all kinds of, you know,
we have lots of people who do, you know, who
are cyclists and runners and people who do yoga.
So there, but we are. We have brought in so many
young adults who have never worked out a day
in their life and and and have no interest in
it. You know, now some of that, I think, can
be because they're young and they didn't have
that foundation already. And sometimes we bring
them in and then you get to watch this person
blossom into this amazing human. Right. Who has
now adopted these great healthy lifestyles. So
we have a heavy influence on some of these people
also. You know, but there is just not enough
emphasis on that. There's not a standard, actually.
You know, we say, okay, this is what you have
to do, you know, every year. But the reality
is, let me turn this down. I'm sorry, it keeps
going off. But the reality is. There actually
is not a standard. And we may say you have to
reach this. And so the goal, if you will, that
we tell people for our department that you have
to get to is not even a minimum standard. It's
not a standard, right? It's just like this is
what you have to do. But if you don't pass it,
there is no repercussion. You know, there's there,
you know, we'll we'll set you up on a plan. We'll
offer you a trainer. We so there are things that
we have in place that to help people. But there
isn't any repercussions for not maintaining some
level of fitness or reaching the goal. I think
that's very common. How competitive was it when
you tested? I would say that it was pretty competitive.
It was, you know, and actually I recall I was
testing for two different departments and I called
the department I work for now and was trying
to get one of my assessments rescheduled because
I had an assessment at another department at
the same time. And I was very transparent about
that. I just believe in being honest at all costs.
And so I said, well, I have this other thing.
And actually their response was, then you need
to decide who you want to work for. And I thought,
oh, I better get my shit together, you know?
And then I made, that is exactly what I did is
I focused in on that department and focused in
on my training for that task. I had my dog who's
trying to join me here. And so I think it was
very competitive for me. And there weren't, you
know, I've been in the fire service for almost
18 years. There weren't as many women then as
there are now. And there was definitely a lot
of focus, I think, on departments bringing women
on board. You know, I think the average last
I knew was about one to two percent in a department.
And we we are somewhere around eight or nine
percent, maybe even a little bit higher women.
So my class had six or seven girls out of like
25 or 30 people that got hired together. And
that was a tremendous amount of women to come
in at one time. So there was a lot of competition.
My hiring process in general was about nine months
long. You know, and I knew or at least I felt
in my mind at the time. I don't know if this
is real or not in hindsight, but I felt like
there was a lot of competition and I felt like
I had to do my best at everything. And whatever
I was doing to be my best, somebody else was
working harder. And that was my drive to work
harder to get the job. So this is what I love
to hear, because I think I think you came on.
to orange county a year after i did i came from
the west coast and then and then joined when
i moved back here um and you know compared to
what i'd seen in the west coast you know orange
county was was not as competitive and this is
what was crazy is the one that was the most competitive
had the highest standards they set the bar high
and that attracted all the good firefighters
so this mentality that you lower the bar i mean
it's a it makes no sense and b it's so dangerous
just to illustrate i've talked about this a few
times on here We had a little boy, Trucker Duke's,
pass away. He's the son of a Hawaiian firefighter.
And when he did, I put together a little kind
of workout to dedicate to him. And I called the
tower Trucker's Tower. And the tower next to
us where in my last apartment was 28 stories.
So I just put on, when I got a few of my fellow
firefighters, we just put on a high -rise strip,
what you would actually need to fight fire at
that level. So two extra tanks, hose, a tool,
and obviously a pack and your bunker gear. That's
it. At 168 pounds, that was another 100 pounds
of gear. Then you climb 28 floors, and then you
go to work. That's right. You are the parent
of the child that's stuck on that 28th floor,
and you find out that the person that was supposed
to be going up to get them only made it to the
fifth floor. This is what we're talking about.
These standards, it's so fucking dangerous to
have no standards in a job where sometimes we're
just bandaging a sprained ankle. I get it. There's
no real athleticism in that. But sometimes you're
dragging people out of a school shooting or climbing
a skyscraper because all the elevators are out.
So this is what blows my mind is that you're
going to have an Evaldi moment. One day we're
going to have the Grenfell or whatever horrendous
fire in our first year. And they're going to
do an analysis and they're going to say, wait
a second, how come half these firefighters didn't
even get up to the fire floor? Now, the money
you could have spent on actually hiring good
firefighters and putting that bar in and putting
in a D -shift, for example, the four platoon
system, that you would have saved money hand
over fist from the lawsuits of all the dead people.
Yeah. It's pretty wild. Yeah. You know, and I
think, I think. You know, for us and for some
other adjoining departments that I've seen, just
also promoting people into positions of strong
leadership who also don't have that physical
presentation, if you will. And I hate to make
it sound like, oh, it's the physical thing, right?
But, you know, you're in a lot of cases. your
physical presentation. And I may not, and I'm
not necessarily just talking about body fat here,
right? I'm talking about how you prepare yourself,
your hair, your, your hygiene, right? How you
dress is your shirt tucked in, like how you are
presenting yourself to the world. on how you
are presenting yourself to the organization shows
everybody what kind of control and discipline
you have in your life and how that and that's
going to come into your professional life as
well and so when i see departments that put people
in positions of strong leadership let me rephrase
that of strong influence right and that leadership
role that don't Check any of those boxes that
they appear to be a person who has got their
life together. Right. Who has who has discipline
and self -control and leadership. Yeah, I have
to scratch my head at that because I think that's
shameful. And I think it's shameful because not
everybody has to be, you know, a bodybuilder
or CrossFit or, you know, I'm only in pickleball
shape right now, you know, but not everybody
has to be a certain image. I don't want to make
it sound superficial like that, but there is
something to be said, you know, when you can
look at somebody and say, there's a different
level of reverence, right? When you look at somebody
who's in charge of something and you can see
that they also have. charge of their own personal
life and their own personal health. It really
says something. So I think we continue to breed
this culture that that's okay. There have got
to be better options. I'm suspicious as to why
that happens. But sadly, when we put that on
the forefront, I think we're showing what we're
looking for for people. Yeah, I was very sad
to hear when Chief Droz was ousted because to
me, I worked with him in Hialeah as well. We
always joke that every time he was my chief,
I left. But, you know, he walked the walk. I
think he was a great spokesperson. I think he
was a great leader. I mean, I watched, for example,
the dive program and some of those other ones
have some life. breathed back into him and he
allowed the people that originally created them
to go ahead and continue and i watched him in
the fit pit all the time working out constantly
you know so that to me is a good fire service
leader yeah uh chief droads was um he is an amazing
leader um and he i felt like was an amazing leader
an example for us um i was very sad to see him
go um But I can tell you that I still have a
really great relationship with him. I have an
immense amount of respect for him. And when I
think of Chief Drodes, what I think about is
the leadership that he showed us, right? Not
every organization is going to be so blessed
to have experienced somebody like him. And so
what he brings to the table, I think, is so cool
and so very important. And I talk about this
a lot when I talk about I'll talk about leadership
for a second. When I talk about leadership is
everybody understands these kind of analogies
because you're either an adult child or you are
a parent. Right. And so everybody knows that
when you have kids, especially if you have more
than one kid. Now, I'm talking about children,
but relate this. to firefighters, right? Sometimes
I say firemen, sorry. Relate this to firefighters.
When you're a lieutenant and you have five or
six firefighters in your house, those are your
kids, right? I'm a captain. I got a whole bunch
of them. These are my kids, right? And so when
I'm using these analogies, I'm really applying
this to my leadership in the fire service. Not
every child is going to respond the same right
you have brother you have siblings yes yeah one
of five oh my that's a lot of kids that's like
your mom and dad had their own firehouse is what
they had yeah well we were kind of feral because
they were my dad was a veterinary surgeon so
he was off running calls and mom was in the office
so we were like it was a lord of the flies on
the farm basically yeah well a lot of most kids
are feral anyways but you know there was there
was a And, you know, you'll be able to identify
what kind of child you were, which just really
transitions a lot into how you are as an adult.
But, you know, there's some some firefighters
you can look at, some kids you can look at and
you can just give them that look and they'll
start crying. They'll do when you go, James,
OK, I won't do it anymore. Right. And then you
have the other kid, you know, you maybe this
is you or you're one of your other siblings that
you can beat the hell out of them and they'll
come back for more. You know, and so organizations
want us to treat everybody the same, you know,
to have this equality of how we treat people.
But that's not real and that's not good leadership.
And what I loved about Drodes is that he expressed
some of that leadership, not necessarily in those
terms, but we always knew where we were going.
And so I always say like when you're in a relationship
with somebody. there's going to come a point
in time, whether it's the male or the female
or whoever it is in the relationship is going
to come forward and say, so what are we doing
with this? Right? Where are we going? Where's
our relationship going? Are we getting married?
Are we having kids? Do you love me? Like, are
we going to move in together? What's the next
step? You know what I mean? And that's really
important for humans because we need to know
where we're going in our life because forward
progression is how we move. It's how we grow
and it's how we maintain happiness and fulfillment
in our life. So if you don't have that and you
don't have it in a relationship, what do people
start doing? They start scratching their head
and they're saying, well, I wonder what it would
be like with this person. You know, I wonder
what my relationship would be like. All it takes
is some other male or female to come along and
tell you you look pretty that day, and then all
of a sudden someone else has sparked your interest,
and you can start figuring out real fast that
maybe you're better served somewhere else. And
so to bring it back around, what Drodes did is
he always gave us direction. We always knew where
we were going in our relationship, right? He
came along and he said, We are going to be an
ISO class one department. Okay. And this is the
pathway to get there. You guys are going to do
all the work. You guys are going to go flow,
you know, hundreds of thousands of hydrants.
You're going to do hundreds of thousands of PIPs.
You're going to do all of this hard work, but
I'm going to support you. I'm going to give you
all the tools that you need. And that's going
to be the pathway to success. Right. And then
he came along and said, we're going to create
a world -class dive team. I'm going to support
you. I'm going to get you the funding. And so
there was always direction on where we were going.
We knew where we were all going in our relationship,
you know, and a lot of departments don't have
that. And so when you don't have that direction,
you don't know where you're going. You start
getting curious and you start looking for somewhere
else to go. Whether that be another department
or, you know, another somebody else in a relationship,
you know, kind of thing. And so I think it's
very important that people have that direction
and they know this is what we're doing in life.
This is what we're doing today for our job. This
is what we're doing today for our physical health,
our mental health, our spiritual health. Right.
There's all different aspects. And you have to
know where you're going and what you're doing,
what the plan is. You know, otherwise you get
bored and you. Probably sit on your phone and
veg out on social media all day long, you know,
which isn't exactly healthy either. You know,
so Chief Drodes gave us a lot of excellent leadership
and direction. And then he always had the support
and he always knew who you were. And he always
showed his face. And people need to see that,
right? And even though he was very busy, he still
made it known that he was present. And there's
just something to be said for that. You know,
when you don't know who your fire chief is, when
you don't see your battalion chief, you don't
see your leadership and they're not present,
it's kind of like they're not there and you just
want to go play with somebody else. Yeah. I mean,
I saw it firsthand. I remember sitting in station
50 when he came to visit and I was assigned at
70. So we had the rescue boat and it was amazing.
They'd float people through. that some of them
couldn't even swim and you've been sent to a
station where you might have to drive a boat
to a lake back it down a dock then drive around
and hopefully not kill the person that you need
to save then jump in and understand how to backboard
them and get them you know what i mean it's a
very very i was a lifeguard for years it's a
complex task that you're asking to do and so
i was underlining that and wayne dormany had
already been well involved in the the rescue
diver side and i know And loads of people had
tried to get it off ground the first time. So
it's not that I had any big influence, but it
was yet another voice. But I saw that actually
make a difference. I saw him listen and go collectively
all these voices I've heard about this dive program
and the boats. They're right. We do need to fix
this. And, you know, before I left, they were
doing the surface diver and then ultimately went
to the full on diver driver. And when he when
he was my chief in Hialeah, we actually did rescue
diver training because Hialeah is full of canals
and lakes. So we did that in the academy. We
got through all that dive training. So I know
he had a background of that too. But what I saw,
like you said, he was present in the stations.
And if you were coming up with a problem and
a solution, he empowered those people to actually
do it. I mean, what the PIOs did, what the promos
did as far as storytelling, all the amazing things
that Orange County did, the lip sync battles
with other departments. I mean, it was so good.
And I just it blows my mind that whatever fragile
egos behind the scenes were threatened by that,
that they literally got rid of the best leader
they've had in decades, arguably. Yeah, I definitely
wouldn't argue that. That's, you know, I've seen,
you know, 18 years worth of different leadership
come through. And and I have a good working relationship
with a lot of people, you know, so I don't want
to make it sound like, you know. Drozd was wonderful.
And I think that I don't know that there could
be a better fire chief for me. When I see him,
I still tell him he's my chief. I interviewed
him just a few weeks ago. I'm hoping that he's
going to get a very prominent national position.
I'm still waiting to see, but I know he's in
the running. Yeah. And, you know, I saw him at
a union conference, and there was about 10 of
us sitting at the table. And, you know, I feel
that, I believe that if it was any other fire
chief that we've had past or present, a lot of
people might get up and shake a hand or, you
know, do the hi thing. Because it was, you know,
a dinner time kind of thing when he came by the
table. But that's not what we did. Every single
person at that table got up and walked over to
him and shook his hand or hugged his neck. And
that's just that is just the energy that he puts
off and the leadership that he gives. And it's
impressive. Absolutely. He does it right. He
does. And the thing is, I I'm on this kind of
chair at the moment to kind of call out. the
poor leadership just because i mean i'm eight
years plus deep into this podcast now with the
same kind of messages and thousands of episodes
with you know true smes you know layering this
argument of you know how you fix this i mean
the solutions are out there but it's really good
to talk about some examples of good leadership
because it does exist out there and we need to
model those people it does i i i think that I
don't know if that's really harder on that higher
level of leadership. I find it hard to believe
that it is other than staying true to yourself.
And I do believe that with the right upper leadership
that you can continue to promote through the
ranks and stay true to who you are. And I mean,
stay true to who you are, meaning you don't sell
out to what some corrupt leadership wants. You
know, and it's really disheartening when you
want to give people what you think you have to
offer, but you won't because of those what are
seen as roadblocks above you. You know, that
they want you to be a puppet. You know, they
they want to they want you to say yes and do
what they tell you to do without explaining anything.
And I don't and I don't think that's good leadership.
You know, I think I think people should be able
to come to you and ask you questions. And I do
believe in the chain of command. So don't misunderstand
when I say that. But I think that people should
be able to come to you, ask you questions and
they your leadership should be able to give you
a. answer that is based off of a policy a procedure
a protocol right um logic common sense you know
and safety things they they should be able to
give you a proper answer for those things and
not just because i said so That's not an answer.
That doesn't create judgment. It doesn't create
character. It doesn't create understanding. That's
not succession planning. We're not bringing people
up through the fire service to be leaders. We're
bringing them up to be puppets. And that is going
to cause major issues for people, their safety,
first and foremost, but also their mental health.
And I say that because people who don't feel
like they have value will be of no value. I know
it sounds super cliche, but that's just real.
If you don't feel like you're contributing something
to your career and to a department and to your
crew and to your call, to your firehouse or whatever
it is, then people will just stop feeling like
they have a place. And we lose camaraderie. We
lose brothership. It causes mental health problems.
Like it's, it is a huge disconnect. You know,
it's funny when you think about, you know, the
fire service, let's take it another step further.
Say you're Marines. We know that they break these
young men and women down and then build them
up to become Marines. I think in the fire service,
we stopped at break these people down. So I agree
with you completely. If you just leave them broken,
you run them into the ground. you know, running
five, six calls after midnight. And then they
get that phone call at 7am that you're not going
home, say for another 24, you know, we just,
we just beaten them down. And I did a post not
too long ago. And this is, this is how I feel.
There is no greater cowardice than a leader who
refuses to advocate for the health of their people.
So if you have a retention problem, if you have
suicides and cancers in your department, that's
on you. That's the buck stops there. You're at
the top of the pyramid. So if your department
is crumbling, you're the person with the giant
paycheck. You're the person with the jacket that
looks like you're going to the freaking parade
in New Orleans. So now it's time to earn those
stripes and bugles, you know, and turn it around.
I feel that's what Drozd did is he came in and,
you know, no, you're not going to blame that
person two weeks in, but he came in and was like,
all right, like you said, what's the mission?
How can we turn this around? But if like locally
here, you've lost five of your firefighters in
four years and almost lost another one. They
just survived their attempt and you refuse to
do anything. Like to me, there is no greater
cowardice. You're literally a tiny, tiny man
in this case wearing a uniform, but you haven't
got the sack to actually do the job that you're
supposed to be doing. And people are dying and
you. are unmoved by it it just blows my mind
i don't understand and then i don't understand
if that person isn't doing it why the rest of
the department isn't getting out you know forks
and flicking you know torches and storming the
castle and saying all right well then get the
fuck out our people are dying you know if you're
not going to do it fine then move out the way
and let someone else do it this is what we need
to do as a profession we need to stand up and
demand change Yeah, I totally agree with you.
You know, I think the issue, the reason why,
in my opinion, you won't see that in some departments
is because they've promoted a culture of people
who won't stand up, right? There's a lot of leadership
out there. They don't want people to ask them
questions. They feel challenged and threatened
by it, right? But when I ask you... Why, why
are we doing it this way? Or it's a, it's a,
it's a threat to them, but to me, it's a clarification,
right? I need to understand because understanding
what we're doing and how we're doing it is very
important. And it's very important to relay that
to other people, but they're creating this, these
leaders, that's not what they want. Right. And
so what happens is they, they put their head
down and they say, whatever you want me to do.
And that includes standing up for other people.
They won't do it. Their their paycheck, their
power, their whatever they're getting out of
that position isn't worth it to them. Sadly.
That's very sad. And, you know, one of the things
I talk about in my presentation, too, is how
how do you show people that you care? Right.
It's easy to say I care about you. But what are
you doing to show people that you care about
them? On every level, right? Because even fireman
to fireman, we just keep shitting on each other.
You know, so whether it's, you know, call outs
or the way that we treat each other or support
each other or the lack thereof, there's lots
of ways that we just, we just shit on each other.
You know, and I think that when people can stop
for a minute in the hustle and bustle to say.
Okay, yeah, I mean, these are my brothers, these
are my sisters, and I care about them, but what
am I doing to show them that? You know, just
showing up at work every day is not showing people
that you care about them. You know, hell, even
half the people that I know in the industry,
I think a lot of us just say, I don't fucking
care. Right? I mean, I say I don't care a lot,
but anybody that knows me knows I just care too
much is my actual problem. And then I think that's
also a curse, you know, but I think that's a
huge component that comes into our mental health,
you know, is people come to the fire service.
Right. One of the great things about the military
is this brotherhood connection that you get,
you know, and we're losing that brotherhood connection
within the fire service. I think we are. It's
not it's not the same. Five or even, you know,
10 years ago, it's drastically different from
even five years ago, those bonds that you feel
or that you see, you know, how crews used to
go out and they do do outings. And, you know,
I send out an email every day to my guys and
expect for the lieutenants to communicate that
information to the crews. I'll go by a station
and sit down with the whole crew and say, hey,
did LT talk to you guys about the email I sent
out? You know, we've been having these things
go on or whatever it's about. And they'll all
look at me dumbfounded. And then I'll look at
the lieutenant. He goes, oh, I was going to do
it in a little bit. And I go, what do you mean
a little bit? It's four o 'clock in the afternoon.
So we're losing this brotherhood and that connection.
And that connection is so imperative for our
mental well -being. To know that that person
you're going to work with has your back not only
in a fire, you know what I mean? But when your
whole world falls apart at home, that you've
got something else that can rely on. And there's
lots of people that come into the fire service
who don't have any of that already. They don't
have parents, right? Or maybe they didn't have
a good upbringing. They don't have siblings.
They don't have a support system. Some people
that have moved into larger counties like this.
and left their family behind just to get a job.
And then we're not even, I'm not even building
them in to be part of their support system, you
know? So I always encourage people to take a
few minutes to try to just ask themselves like,
okay, I care about people, but what are you doing
to show people that you really care? Absolutely.
Well, I want to kind of go back into your career
before we dive into the world of codes and death
notifications. As you progress through, what
was some of the kind of career calls that you
ran? And are there any that started your thought
process on changing the way that we look at some
of these things? So for me, I think the ones
that hit me the hardest were some pretty bad
pediatric calls. You know, and really, I'm pretty
sensitive to seeing people suffer, you know,
pain and suffering. And I think as you. I talk
about being a mature medic, right, or a mature
patient care provider isn't about your actual
level of maturity and how old you are, but the
things that you've experienced in life that make
you sensitive to other people. You know, when
you have kids, you treat kids differently. You
know, when you've suffered a back injury, you'll
probably stop telling people to slide over onto
the stretcher themselves, you know? So I think
there was... can't say anything like any one
thing profoundly. It was just this sense of knowing
that this is what I was made for. You know, I
think there was a point in time in my career,
or like I said, before I got into it, I was like,
I know that, I know that I like this, right.
But I think that there was a profound time for
me that I realized that this is what I believe
God made me to do. to help people on this level,
to be a servant to others, you know? And, and
then of course, as you get older, I think that
you can really, if you're paying attention to
yourself and to life, I think you can really
understand that we're truly here to serve others
and that this life isn't really just about us.
And it really is about what you have to give
other people. And I think that when you, Can
really sit in that and really understand it.
I think that's a very special place to be. And
the unfortunate part is that you can know all
of that and then have a department who doesn't
give a shit about you and you don't feel like
you have a lot of value. And after 18 years,
sadly, you know, I've reached a point where I've
never felt less valued in all of my career. And
any less and so underutilized. You know, and
when you have things to offer and you want to
give things to people that you know are going
to help them with the rest of their life, that's
a moral insult. So I think for me, really, it
was just a maturity thing for me that made me
realize that this was what I was supposed to
be doing. and made me push harder in that passion
it's interesting coming from california where
this bar like i said was set so high they would
cut 25 of the recruit class by the end of the
probationary year just through attrition it wasn't
like they were trying to get rid of good people
but the bar was so high that 25 never made it
every year that was the ones that out of a thousand
people did a written test in my class was about
15 so out of a thousand people you know Three
didn't make it to the end of the year. So, yeah,
and then I come to Orange County. And in that
previous California department, you know, whether
it was roof operations, whether it was interior
attack, you know, we had all these preset hose
lays. We constantly worked on building construction
and cutting, you know, conventional roofs and
panelized roofs and all these different things.
And it was just drilling over and over and over
again. And what that meant was when you were
at a fire. your captain over there would turn
around and say, all right, lay the bundles. All
right, we're going to do a pullback. That's all
I need to say. And in your mind are all these
orchestrated events. You're taking off the right
tools. You're throwing ladders, getting on the
roof, cutting opposite your partner, all the
things. And that requires a lot of trust. And
so at the chief level, they're telling my captain,
all right, we roof ops, interior attack, primary.
That's all they're saying. And then off we go.
There's an immense level of trust. Then I go
to orange and it's the other side of the spectrum,
micromanaging. And now no one even knows really
what they're supposed to be doing because there's
no clear direction. And that's where you get
that almost that moral injury element, that kind
of organizational betrayal, because you've gone
through fire academy. And, you know, the most
firefighters wearing that uniform want to be
a good firefighter. They want to be a good medic.
But it requires strong leadership at the company
level, at the station level, and then at the
battalion level and then beyond. And I was just
so weird because I saw both ends of the spectrum
and it was such a large chasm between the two.
But yeah, that lack of direction creates such
toxicity. And then you throw in the extra sleep
deprivation from the chronic understaffing. Like
I was getting mandatory all the time at Orange
County and I left there in 2013. You know what
I mean? So it wasn't like when the hurricanes
came, it was constant. And I was a single dad
and a medic. And I was like, yeah, this isn't
going to work. And I went to the creek because
you can't tell me I can't go home. I'm a single
father. So, yeah. So going back to what you're
saying. We're taking these great firefighters
and in the wrong environment, you're destroying
them. And I don't think people realize how much
impact that organizational betrayal has. Yes,
we see some horrible shit. Yes, sleep deprivation
is a massive part of the conversation. But the
fact that your tribe that you said that you potentially
could even die for turns their back on you when
you need them is extremely detrimental. And what
do you think in your research and all the people
that you've talked to over the last eight years,
what do you think drives that micromanagement
for these leaders? I have my own suspicions,
but I'm always interested in what other people
think about it. Who is it that always tells you,
sit down, you're making us look bad? Is it the
stud in the station or is it the fat one in the
Lazy Boy? Yeah, that one. It's the same thing.
It's fragile egos. It's people who really know
that they don't know what they're doing. It's
what it boils down to because a strong leader
grooms other strong leaders. Our span of control
is supposed to be, what, five to seven, if my
memory serves me right? So you're not supposed
to be telling the firefighter what to do. That's
several rungs of the ladder down. So having the
trust in your people, but it's a high level of
training. And this is what I saw in Anaheim and
Hialeah. You know, when you train your people
well, then you can say, all right, go do it.
If you have a culture of fitness, you know, they're
going to be OK climbing all those floors and
getting the job done. But if you know, if that
that entire cascade has all these faults, you
know, and then people do make mistakes because
there is a lack of direction is almost like that.
Well, I told you so again now from the top. So
if you have high standards and you have a high
training bar. you can then trust each rung of
the ladder to do the job they're supposed to
be doing. But if you've lowered the standards
and you've got people, as you said, that can't
even make it up five flights of stairs, you end
up with this kind of, you know, dude with a whistle
in the middle of the crowd pointing their fingers
everywhere rather than the calm, collected leader.
You know, like, I mean, Band of Brothers is a
perfect example. Dick Winters. That's who you
need to have in battle. That's who you need to
have on the fire ground. He's not telling the
guy holding the grenade which way to throw it.
Yeah, no, I agree with you. I always, I've always
believed that micromanagement is led by incompetency.
You know, whether it's that person doesn't know,
it's kind of like the classic, you're never going
to rise under a stressful situation, a person's
never going to rise to their highest level of
training. Right. They're going to they're in
a stressful situation. And we see this when people
when they're running critical calls. Right. And
everybody in the fire service, especially as
experiences in health care in general, where
you're you have a specific type of patient that
needs a specific type of treatment. And the probie
or somebody else comes running in with a thermometer,
you know, and you look at them like, what in
the hell are you doing? Right. And what does
that have anything to do with this patient? And
that's because it's not really that they're stupid.
I mean, sometimes we have those two. It's not
really that they're stupid. It's that they are
defaulting to their lowest level of training
in a stressful situation. And people are never
going to rise to their highest level of training.
And that is why the training is so important.
Right. The reps repetition is master. But I do
think that micromanagement is led by and fueled
by incompetency, whether that's the inability
to do their own job or not knowing your job,
but they cannot, a leader cannot do their job
when they're micromanaging you to do yours. And
I'll go back. This is one of the things I loved
about Drodes is that he allowed people to do
their job. You know, I don't I don't know, in
hindsight. You know, I wish we still had him.
So I just have to say, I don't know, in hindsight,
if that's what hurt him the most was trusting
the people that weren't really trustworthy. You
know, but led, I believe, like what. a leader
should lead and saying, okay, you are in charge
of this, or these are all my division chiefs
or my positions, right? These are all my people.
And I trust them because I wouldn't have them
in that position if I couldn't trust them. And
maybe there wasn't time to fix some of those
things. I don't know. I mean, I can speculate
on all kinds of, I've got all kinds of crazy
ideas in my head about, you know, how things
could have been different, you know, in order
to keep him and stuff. But, you know, sometimes
I wonder if that's the very thing that hurt him
the most was trusting maybe people that were
or weren't trustworthy. I don't know, you know,
but. That was a great leadership skill also that
he exhibited was not micromanaging people. And
it's a disease across the fire service. I'll
give you a quick Orange County story. The last,
very last shift there. So first thing in the
morning, I finally got to ride up as an engineer
for the day, being on the rescue the whole time.
we went to a call with the medic unit and it
was a gi bleed like i've said this on here i've
never had a code save in my whole career i'm
just that freaking grim reaper when i show up
if you're already if you're already in cardiac
arrest then you're screwed i just get the brain
bleeds and the triple a's and you know all the
things so anyway by the time we end up you know
working that caught it on scene ultimately clean
up go back in service they're like our gearing
we need you back on the end on the rescue oh
and by the way you're probably going to get mandatory
again next shift And at that point, it was like
I said, I'm a single dad. You can't tell me I
cannot go home. I have a child that needs me
for those 24 hours. So I went into the office
and I was in everything but the actual medical
left for Reedy Creek. So I was like, you know
what? Fuck it. I'm done. And so I told my LT,
John Brown, I'm like, hey, how do you how do
you quit? He's like, well, how do you tell him
that you don't want to work here anymore? Oh,
you write an email. OK, so I wrote him an email.
Hey. I won't be here as of next shift. He's like,
I think you got to do two weeks. I'm like, they're
not going to replace me in two weeks. That's
stupid. I need to be home. And so I said, this
is my last shift. And that was it. Boom, send
it off. Well, the gods weren't very happy because
the next call in the afternoon we had was a homeless
lady that was missing for about three days. And
this was the summer in Florida. So we go through
the woods in Orange Ave, tell the crew, hey,
just wait there because I'm the medic on that
day. We can smell her. So I'm like, we don't
all need to see this. You just stay here and
I'll go check it out. Sure enough, it was just
flesh dripping off bone by that point. So that's
dead person number two. Day goes on a little
bit more. We try and lay down. We get banged
out. Structure fire. And I don't know if you
remember, this one seemed to be kind of known
in the county, but it was the one where it was
either arson or suicide attempt. young man had
set fire to a house and then came out the house
completely on fire and so we're we're responding
to the the call um chris booth was the medic
um he's calling for help so we're initially going
to the address and we we hear it and luckily
we're at the right place and we divert and go
help chris and the guy it was such a weird call
because he's leaning against the fence um completely
just burned head to toe like third degree burns
um And we end up doing a standing takedown, get
him in the back. And I'm literally about to intubate
him. And Chris almost instinctively is like,
what's your name? You know, this guy's, I won't
go into detail, but the guy's injuries, you could
not have an airway. And clear as I'm talking
to you now, he says his name. And we're both
like, what the actual? And so I end up, you know,
he's answering the question. So now. We don't
have, you know, RSI in Orange County. So it's
like, all right, I guess non -rebreather then.
Burn sheets and let's try and get a line. And,
you know, it was only around the corner from
RMC. So that was call number three. So that was
my shift that day. Three dead people, you know,
two, I mean, all three protests, to be honest.
And the culture that we had there, it wasn't
this particular day, but there have been days
where we've been backing up the ambulance, the
rescue out the bay in the ER or RMC. And we've
been threatened to be written up because we weren't
wearing our traffic vests to back up the rescue.
That is the problem with the culture. No one
asked, hey, you lost three people today. Are
you OK? But God forbid that you clip the curb
and the drive cam goes off or you're not wearing
a traffic vest in an ambulance bay. And now all
of a sudden they've got all the fucking time
in the world for you. That, I think, is a massive
example of what's wrong with the culture in a
poorly run department. Agreed. No arguments there.
Normal behavior. Yeah. And it should be the other
way around. We're going to get into it now. The
whole mental health thing. I was OK after that.
I mean, I was not in a great place in my whole
life. I was a single dad going through a divorce
and all that stuff. But what if what if that
had been crushing for me? And then someone comes
and says, where's your vest? You know, what's
that going to do to that person? You know, so
this is why these conversations are so important.
It's not about talking shit and criticizing.
It's highlighting where things are wrong, highlighting
where that could even lead, God forbid, lead
to a suicide. And how can we turn it around to
avoid that happening? Yeah. And I think I think
really, you know, for people in roles of leadership
and and to me, I say roles of leadership that
can be literally anybody. You know, it doesn't
have to be a lieutenant or it doesn't have to
be a higher rank anything. Every single person
is in some role of leadership or can be. And
I think really just having a dialogue with people
first. And trust me, I have had plenty of my
own disciplines that a dialogue would have been
appropriate first. For you, it's just exactly
like what you're saying. Why, how, why, right?
There's lots of questions, but, you know, starting
out with a dialogue first, you know, instead
of coming at somebody and accusing them or just
slapping them with paperwork, I think a conversation
is warranted first, you know? And I think even
for, you know, some of the most egregious things,
I think you really just have to look at somebody
and say, What were you thinking? What's going
on? You know, because I don't feel like the fire
service is full of a bunch of crappy people.
You know what I mean? I mean, I think I think
almost every single person comes into this industry
with the intent of helping other people. So why
do we have so many people who go through times
where they don't want to or they say, I don't
care, you know, or, you know, fuck these people
or whatever, you know, I just. There's something
very wrong within the system and within a department
that has that many people who feel that way.
And that's how they respond. Well, I mean, and
this is not the case in some departments, but
in some that I've seen, again, if there's that
low bar and someone barely squeaks through as
it is, they don't want to be in the field. They
want to get in that admin role as soon as they
can, and then they climb that ladder. So they
don't have any idea. what it's like some of them
maybe were even threatened with termination or
bullied by their classmates because they really
weren't the right fit for the fire service they
made it through and now they're climbing up and
we all know some that even became very um vindictive
once they got into these higher positions yeah
and i think you have some um elder leadership
um you maybe you call them elders um that likes
to say things like I was on the rescue before,
right? I've done this and I've done that, right?
But you and I both know, not only are we running
way more calls than what we used to, right? Industry
-wide, right? Not just a particular, but we are
running way more calls than what we used to.
And the job they did then is different than the
job that we do now. You know, the rescues didn't
transport back then. You were on the rescue,
but you didn't transport. 100%. So that is a
big deal. Now, I do laugh at these young folk
now where they talk about having to sit at the
hospital. I do kind of laugh and poke fun with
them. And they know I'm poking fun with them
when I do it. But I tell them that they're very
spoiled now. Because back when we were on the
rescue, it was normal to sit at a hospital for
three, four, five, six hours. i sat at one hospital
in winter park one time for six hours nobody
came to rescue me there wasn't sushi parfaits
coffee energy drinks there was none of that salads
sandwiches they didn't have any of that stuff
you know so uh i joke around them now that they're
pretty pretty spoiled that they get all those
amenities when we didn't you know you're lucky
if you could find one of those little one tablespoon
size packets of peanut butter and a cracker and
then the nurse was still going to yell at you
for taking them that's what made me laugh about
covid when all the reporters are like oh there's
people in the hallway i'm like where were you
the other years there's always people in the
hallway what are you talking about yeah it's
wild yeah so it's pretty crazy you know and i
think the industry just continues to change um
in a way that doesn't feel doesn't feel very
good yeah i mean i i it feels like we're expected
to care for everybody else but nobody cares about
us that's a crappy feeling well i underline this
too because i am an incurable optimist although
i sound very angry a lot of times This is the
perfect time to change. We are truly at crisis
level now nationally in the fire service. There
are some departments that are doing it well,
and they're fine. But the other, I would argue,
90 plus percent are struggling. And if you draw
a line of recruitment, retention, et cetera,
it's not headed in a good place at all. So we're
in a perfect opportunity to change this. You
know, you should be able to go in and become
a police officer or a firefighter, have a healthy
career, have plenty of rest and recovery, be
held to a fitness standard that promotes performance
and longevity, have immediate access to mental
health, you know, within your department and,
you know, retire. And look back and be proud
of what you did and then spend, you know, decades
with your grandchildren. So we absolutely can
fix this. This isn't a doom and gloom conversation,
but it is one of those, you know, look, lying
in the sand. We're tired of pussyfooting around
now. If we don't do something soon, aside from
the freaking litany of deaths that we have, you
know, everywhere in our first responder professions.
Our delivery of service is going to go to the
point where some areas are literally going to
call 911 and they're going to get a dial tone.
Nothing even there anymore. So what a beautiful
opportunity to finally say, look, the data is
undeniable now. Now is the time to make change.
And I think the future of the fire service is
extremely exciting. But sadly, it's off the backs
of the men and women that we've buried that will
finally be able to force change. For sure. All
right. Well, with that segue, death, let's talk
about your journey into doing presentations now
on death notifications, on the perspectives from
the responder and the family on a code. What
kind of made you start questioning things about
how we do it? And let's talk about the solutions
that we need to be moving towards. So for me,
I. Years ago, I had a pediatric code. It was
a father who was at home with their four -year
-old, and he was using drugs, and the baby drowned
in the tub. And we took this child to the hospital,
and I realized when we got to the hospital that
there wasn't a lot of engagement with the mom
when she arrived on scene. And I remember feeling
heartbroken and at a loss for her, thinking that
I should. I mean, I think that a lot of people
think that somebody else on scene is going to
talk to family members when they have a loved
one that's having a crisis, whether it's death
or a critical injury or illness. And so I began
to realize that that is not what was happening,
that a lot of us. believe that somebody else
is going to have that conversation or we're just
not supposed to have it because we haven't, it
really hasn't been taught to many of us, you
know? And so then just over time, you know, I've,
I've been an EMS educator for over 15 years and,
you know, teaching EMT school and medic school
and anything EMS, I would teach it, you know,
and I just loved it. And I really, I think over
the years, as I've become more sensitive to that,
I just realized that we're, there's a huge opportunity
that we're missing to make a difference in people's
lives, you know? And I kind of started honing
in on that a little bit. And through that, I
discovered that it wasn't just that we were missing
an opportunity to change the lives of the family
members who were suffering, but it was an opportunity
for us to heal that we were missing. And so I
kind of had this epiphany that this is a huge
mental health component of how we survive this
industry. So I for a while have said, I got to
figure out how to get out of this job mentally
and physically intact. And so as I started delving
into that more, I really came to understand that
we needed to get to closure on calls. And how
and then how do we get there? You know, like
everybody knows like what closure is if you have
a loved one that's dead. Right. You know, but
we. But how do we get to closure as first responders
and why would we and what does it matter? What
does it look like and why would we do it and
things like that? And so there was a big discovery
for me that we have so much to offer family members
that we're not doing that a lot of people are
not doing. And it's because. We haven't talked
about it. We haven't trained for it. We're very
robotic on the job to protect ourselves, right?
We think that by not doing something and ignoring
the distraught family members, we think that
we're actually protecting ourselves. But there
is a part of that that we're missing that can
help them through the grieving process, but also
help us get to closure. And so when I realized
all that, every year, historically, in the last
five years or whatever, maybe longer, five or
eight years, I've been giving a pediatric class
at our preceptors academy that we have every
year. In fact, we have one coming up next week
or the week after. And it's a multi -jurisdictional
academy. People in from other jurisdictions and
they participate. And it's really a quite wonderful
educational two weeks that's available for people
to go to. And I asked last year, I said, hey,
I've got this presentation that I want to give.
I kind of gave them a summary about what it was.
And I was for sure that they were going to tell
me no, because people like to tell me no. And
they said yes. And so then I said, well, I better
put the presentation together because I don't
have one. But I knew, but it was all in my soul.
It was all in my heart and soul. I knew what
I wanted to share. I just needed to put it together
and, you know, something that was going to make
sense. And so I put together this presentation.
I talked it over with all of our medical directors
because I wanted to make sure that we were on
the same page. And I wanted to make sure that
what I wanted to share with people, that there
was the same. vibe you know that that uh you
know sometimes you can geek out on something
And then when you go to give it to other people,
they didn't quite geek out on it as well, you
know? So I wanted to make sure that I was geeking
out in some other people's lanes. And they loved
it. And there was not really hardly any of it
that they wanted to change. They had some really
good suggestions of some things that I threw
in there to talk about. And then every single
one of the medical directors made it a point
to come and see me give the presentation at the
academy. And it was quite, well -received and
the message is just so emotionally evoking because
we're talking about something that we probably
know deep in our hearts that we should be talking
about and addressing with people. But it takes
real raw courage to have those difficult conversations
with people. It takes every, every single time
I've done this. It takes the most courage I could
ever have in my life to look at mom and dad and
tell them that their child's dead. That never
feels OK. And it doesn't even have to be a five
year old. It could be, you know, a grown adult
child. Right. But to look at, you know, even
a wife or husband and tell them that their spouse.
is dead takes a lot of courage and of course
it's it's it is harder it is more difficult when
um they're younger but to look at mom and dad
and tell them that their five -year -old child
is dead is it has got to be the hardest thing
and hardest conversation to have with a family
member so um when i when i realized that we weren't
doing that a lot of people weren't doing that
um i had to ask why And really the why is because
we want to protect ourselves. It's difficult
and we don't know what to say. And so I wanted
to make it my mission and part of my journey
for the rest of my career or until people are
done listening to me say it, that we can do better.
And we owe it to people to do better. We owe
it to their families to do better. And we owe
it to ourselves. for us to do better. And what
I mean by that is I think there's a lot of times
in the fire service, especially in the last several
years, and I'm at fault for saying this myself,
I'm not a hypocrite, so I will absolutely admit
this, where we say, oh, you know, these generation
of firemen that come in, they're softer now.
You know, they're different. And I think we're
softer as a species. You know what I mean? When
you think about, like, how Greece was built.
You've got structures made of marble that are
still standing thousands and thousands of years
later. And so I think that we are a softer species
in general. But my point is that even if that
is true, are we, the people that are doing the
job now and have been doing the job for all these
years, our leadership, are we still not responsible
to change the culture for those that are coming
through? And we are. And so my mission now is
really to get this message to as many people
as we can and as many people as I can, because
if it changes one life and it saves one life
or makes a difference in anybody else's life,
then it is worth it to me. It's worth my time
to go and give that presentation and to talk
to people and share what I what I have to share
with them on it. I'm not the only person out
there that's talking about this. You know, in
fact, I would argue to say that there's not enough
of us spending enough time to talk about it.
And so what I hit in this presentation isn't
just about how we talk to families, because again,
I am sensitive and I understand that all we keep
doing in the fire service is asking for our boots
on the ground workers to do more. right do more
do more do more but then we don't have anything
else to give we don't take anything off the plate
right we just keep piling more stuff on so when
i talk about this i know that it sounds so much
like i'm talking about oh what else can we do
we could do more for other people but but part
of this pathway is how we get to closure as first
responders and how we get out of this career
mentally and physically intact you know and i
and i just think that's so important so this
has really become my mission Um, until I just
can't say it anymore. Um, about how important
this is of, of how we facilitate the grieving
process for families and how we get to closure
as first responders. In some of the recent conversations,
uh, even Alex Javer that I think we talked about
on the phone a while ago. Um, she's, she's, you
know, excellent resource as well. Talking about
just the clear, clear communication on someone,
you know, not saying passed on or whatever, you
know, and how that is actually healing for both.
But when you think about the front door, and
you talked about your journey, EMT school and
then medic school, I reflect back now. And, you
know, if we're doing a mega code, you get, you
know, all these funky rhythms thrown at you and
you push your drugs and you defibrillate or pace
or whatever you need to do. And then, oh, congratulations,
sign this rhythm, you got ROSC. I think that
we do a disservice in the educational side. Because
if we do A, B and C, the person lives. And as
you and I both know, in James Gearing's career,
I'm still batting zero at the moment. So, you
know, it sets you up for failure. And then you
have, again, that kind of moral injury of what's
wrong with me? You know, and the thing is, what's
wrong with you is it was a GI bleed or a heart
that was so diseased, it's not going to come
back, you know, or it was a, you know, a stroke,
whatever it was. And so even at the front door.
I'm thinking, isn't that a great opportunity
to start applying what you're talking about?
Do your mega code and get them to still push
all the right drugs and still give the right
electric therapeutics. But say, hey, you did
everything you could. It's asystole. We're going
to call it. Now I need you to tell the family
what happened. Yeah, I love that. And I think
that's a great opportunity to implement, if nothing
else. the thought process and the new patient
care provider, right? That's going to be having
that interaction or that opportunity. And so
what I used to, I found out when I used to, I
developed the paramedic sign -off process for
the county. When I developed that and I would
have people come in and do a scenario and they
would need to use like electric cardioversion,
electrical therapy on a patient, I would ask
the new medic, I would say, OK, tell the patient
how what you're going to do before you deliver
the energy. What are you going to say to them?
And and and a lot of these people have never
thought about what they're going to say. So they
would say something like, OK, now hold still.
I'm going to shock you. You know, I'm like, oh,
God, is that what you would say to somebody?
So we are. That's a great opportunity to build
in at least some of that thought process. You
know, most of the time we're going to be more
successful. About saying something difficult
to somebody, if we've at least thought about
how we might say it before we have to say it.
You know, so that's a lot about what this is
about is, you know, is this a new concept? No,
this has been around for a while. A lot of the
things that I talk about we've done in hospitals
before, you know, bringing family members in
to be a part of the code. We've seen this has
been happening for years, but not in the field.
You know, and and there's power in doing that.
And so and understanding why we do that and what
kind of power that holds is so important. And
I think that's a great opportunity. I was talking
to one of my chiefs the other day and he was
asking about the presentation and he was asking
me if I thought it would be beneficial for the
recruits. And I was like, oh, you know, let me
think about this. I mean, I could change some
of the content. And honestly, I just really didn't
think of it. On the level that you just presented
it. And so I think that I will go back and have
another conversation because even though they
are brand new, there is still so much power because
this is really about planting the seed. I can't
make people go out and have these conversations,
right? I can't, I can't, I'm not going to be
there to hold their hand and give them moral
support or tell them what to say, but planting
that seed for them to know that. You can do this.
And this is why you do it. And this is why it's
important for them and for you. It's really powerful.
So I think I'll go back and have some conversations.
So I'm really thankful that you mentioned that.
That's a powerful, dynamic time in their career
to implement and plant that seed for them. Yeah,
this is coming from a lot of people that told
people that their loved one was dead because
I was their medic. So I had a lot of practice.
Yeah. But joking aside. What were some of the
things that you would say? Well, I mean, I have,
I hear lots of things that people say, but what
would you, because you probably didn't have any
formal death notification training, right? No.
Yeah. I'll give you the worst case scenario.
Yeah. The worst case scenario. I'll never forget
this. I was at the Creek and it was a cardiac
arrest in a hotel room. The code went well, but
the precursor to this. Before I got there, they
were just show coding everyone. And they were
filling ER beds with dead people and giving these
families tens of thousands of dollars worth,
if not tens of thousands of dollars worth of
medical debt for someone who was asystole the
whole time. So when I went in there, I was adhering
to the asystole protocol that I'd been taught
as an Orange County medic. And there was a time
where a battalion chief grabbed me by my radio
strap and said, you will take this patient. And
I was a brand new probie then. You will take
this patient to the hospital. The next code after
that was this one. So I said to my crew, we're
going to follow a sisterly protocol. If we get
20 minutes, we're going to call it just to preset.
But what I didn't realize is that the family
next door were within earshot. And that came
across as kind of callous. So even though I was
doing it because I didn't want this guy to be
dragged down a hallway in a resort and end up
in an ER bed that might be needed by someone
who has a chance of living, you know, so that's
when I look back and go, when did I do it wrong?
You know, I should have absolutely said that,
but be aware of, you know, lowering my voice
and all those things. So that's a poor example.
But the other one was, it's just, it's by that
point to me, again, making it up and listening
to. other medics that i was you know respected
and and listened to was just being kind and empathetic
and switching from robocop medic which we have
to be to you know sitting down holding their
hand and saying look you know this is what we
did this is you know how he responded or she
responded you know we we try and try and try
but we don't want to give you false hope and
take him off in an ambulance when we've already
passed the point of, you know, of them actually
having a chance of living. So we want to be respectful
and leave them here with you and just kind of
be a very, very to the point, but also compassionate
and sit with them as a human being now, not the
medical professional that burst in a few minutes
before. Right. Yeah. And I think, I think probably
most people. I haven't had that good example
of what to say. I mean, when I talk to people
everywhere, you know, different states and everything,
most people don't have training on what to say
and how to say it and understanding that, you
know, you too could feel something when you say
it and that's okay, you know, because we're always
protecting ourselves because we don't want to
be emotionally involved and we don't want to
feel this pain and suffering because we do this
way too much. And so when I talk about this with
people, I also... I have to kind of give that
understanding, too, that doing this, the purpose
is not to become over emotionally involved in
calls either. Right. Because that can also be
very dangerous. OK, I've I've given this presentation
to I just gave it to a local department here
to the entire department. And. they have a specific
person that responds to all cardiac arrest and
that is their role is to talk to the family which
i think is wonderful that they have someone that
does that now they have their own feedback on
whether that person actually does it or not you
know but um it's also important to know that
um that particular person may not be the right
person to have this conversation with the family
you know because just like you're saying it has
to be somebody who can be compassionate and kind
and can control themselves. Right. Because you,
you don't want to fall apart when you're telling
anytime I've talked to mom and dad about their
dead baby. It's very, it's very heavy. But I
can manage to get the words out without falling
apart. You know? So it's got to be the right
person, too. And those words have to be direct
and they have to be delivered directly and clearly
and with kindness and a nice, steady cadence
when you're talking to people that are under
this much distress. And so I always encourage
people to think about the person you love most
in your life. Right. And if you were to die and
assuming that, you know, you're the person that
they love most in their life, if you were to
die, what would you want? them to say to your
loved one you know regardless of whether we have
experience in the fire service or not or if they're
are in the health care industry what would you
want them to say to you and so I like to give
examples of what that kind of dialogue sounds
like for people because it's one thing to say
oh we should be talking to people but what does
it sound like right And so a lot of times what
we do is we we say things like we're doing everything
we can and we're sorry for your loss. Right.
Those are probably the two most common things
that we say to people that are their family members
when they're critically injured or traumatized.
And those things aren't wrong to say. Right.
And it's just that I believe that we can do better.
And I believe that we owe it to people to do
better. And the problem is that people just don't
have the training of what to say. And so I like
to give examples of those dialogues. And so what
I like to do for people is I like to show up
on these calls. And the first thing I do is interface
with the crew to find out. what we have right
so an example would be you know i get there and
i say hey what you got to the crew running the
code and then they would say 80 year old female
stage four cancer recent diagnosis initial rhythm
is asystole and so that tells me that this patient's
probably not going to survive their injuries
right i mean that's the reality we're going to
try right we're going to do everything we can
but they're probably not going to have a good
outcome And so at that point next, I want to
interface with the family immediately, if there's
family there. And that's going to sound like
this, where we would say, the first thing I want
to know is my audience, 100 % of the time, right?
Who am I talking to? I gave up on trying to figure
out if it's a guy, a girl, a husband, a wife,
and how they're related. So I just ask, how are
you related to the patient? you know this is
my mother and then i like to go through and i'd
like to tell them what we found what we're doing
and what we're trying to get the outcome to be
because it's very important that patient care
providers understand that we see this all the
time the families don't and they don't understand
why we are still doing something there and we're
not already on the way on the way to the hospital
right they don't understand that doing, working
the code on scene gives them the greatest chance
of surviving if they're going to. And so you
have to explain that to people and you don't
have to explain to them like that, but you do
need to tell them, we owe it to them to tell
them what we're doing with their loved one. And
so I love to ask people like, you know, when
you worked for different departments, where did
we put family members when we were working a
code? Where do we normally? I mean, a lot of
times we just take them to a different room.
Yeah, we put them in another room with who? The
cops. We usually put them in law enforcement
there and they're screaming, crying. And the
reality is that in almost every instance, I know
there's a rare occasion that this happens, but
in almost every instance, they just want to know
what's happening. Right. And we put them in another
room and we block them off from seeing the person
that they love the most in their life who they
have no idea what's going on. So we owe it to
these people to talk to them. So I usually come
in and say, how are you related to the patient?
They tell me. And then I'll say, when we got
here, your mom's heart wasn't working on our
own on its own. We started doing compressions.
We're trying to get our heart to work again.
Right. Or CPR use very basic words. And so, again,
what we found. what we're doing and what we're
trying to get the outcome to be, right? She also
wasn't breathing on her own. We put a tube down
her throat. We're breathing for her, giving her
the most amount of oxygen that we can. We've
started an IV. We're giving medications. The
medication's going to try to get her heart to
work again. And then we have to tell people how
long we're going to do this for. In standard
practice, we know it's 20 minutes, right? We're
going to do this. I usually say 15 to 20 minutes
because by the time I get there, it's already
been a few minutes, right? And so I usually tell
people, we're going to do this for 15 to 20 minutes.
If there's no change, we're going to stop. Now,
just like we were talking earlier, we're not
going to use the words dead, death, and dying
yet. Right. We don't want to use the words like
past, passed away, moved on their spirit left,
like whatever kind of crazy things people say.
We don't want to say that. We don't want to say
those those words. We want it to be a very clear,
direct communication. But we don't want to use
dead, death and dying yet, because do you know
that a lot of people believe that we're keeping
their family member alive and that when we stop
is when they die? So they think we are the ventilator
that we're just going to go whenever they say
it's OK, we're going to go over and unplug it.
That's literally what a lot of people think is
happening. And that's just in the world that
we live in here that has nothing to do with the
different cultures that come into the area, you
know. And so a lot of people don't understand
that. And so I tell them we're going to do this
for about 15 or 20 minutes. And if there's no
change, we're going to stop. And usually at that
point, people get emotional and that's fine.
They need space. Give them space. Allow them
space or invite them to come in. Now, the problem
is that a lot of times we don't want it. When
I say this to other fire departments, people
are like, oh, God, we're going to bring them
in. These people are going to go crazy when you
bring them in. The real reason why we don't want
to do this, and I've asked people everywhere,
like, why do you not want to bring people? Why
do you not want to bring the family member in
to see their loved one? And they're like, oh,
they're in our way. They're going to see what
we're doing. Okay. I mean, I've had one group
tell me that, you know, sometimes. sometimes
the bag isn't checked out properly. And so they're
like, where, where the F is this? And where's
that? And they're throwing stuff out of the bag.
And I just looked at him and said, you know,
you just have to be a better professional than
that. That's not even acceptable. That's, that's
crazy, you know? But we, the real, the real reason
why we don't want to bring that family member
in is because now we have to talk to them. Right.
And historically, as much as we have to talk
to people, we don't want to talk to them. And
so, you know, if they, a lot of people are going
to opt to not come in, but if they do, you just
have to explain to them what we're doing and
you have to be right there next to them. A lot
of times I might have their arm, my arm around
them or something. I am right there next. I'm
married with them and now they are my job. And
then also I identify that we don't always have
that many resources to do that. So it's very
dependent on what your outfit looks like, right?
We're running four man engines, two man rescues,
sometimes a third person on a rescue if we're
precepting and things like that. So there is
quite a bit of manpower and I'm showing up as
an additional person. But in most cases, we can
involve people. So if they opt to not come in,
then that's a great time to give them space and
tell them that you're going to come back and
find them in about 15 or 20 minutes and let them
know where we are. So in this specific example
with the 80 -year -old female, we did reach a
point to where we were ready to terminate the
code. And so I told the crew, continue working
the code. I'm going to go talk to the family,
and I'll be right back. And so once I gather,
now there's more family members there, right?
So now I'm asking, who are you and who are you
and how are you related? Because I need to know
my entire audience. Maybe there's people there
that aren't in the family and I'm getting ready
to have a very intimate conversation with them
that maybe they don't want the other people to
hear. If there's children there, we have to be
sensitive to that. Maybe they don't need to hear
that. And you leave that up to the adults to
make that decision. But knowing your audience
is paramount. And so from there, I'm going to
reiterate what we did. And so what we're doing
for people is we're preparing them for bad news.
Right. We are building them up to give them bad
news. And so there's two main things that we
say in all of the United States and probably
outside of that, that we would say to somebody
before we give them bad news. Right. One of the
things that we say is you want the good news
or the bad news first. Right. One of those common
things we say, or we might say, I've got some
bad news. You might want to sit down for this.
And so what we're doing for people, we don't
realize it because we haven't been trained that
way. But what we're doing subconsciously is we
are preparing them for bad news. And so now what
I'm asking is that we do this intently. Right.
We are intently building up bad for that to deliver
bad news. And so by telling them we're going
to do this for 15 or 20 minutes, I'm going to
come back and find you. And then we're going
to have a conversation and see where we are.
We're building them up for bad news. So now we're
at the point where we know we have to deliver
bad news. And so we're going to go back through
and basically repeat everything we said when
we got there. As promised, we've done this for
15 to 20 minutes. And basically you're kind of
checking protocol boxes in your head. So it's
nothing that's difficult. to think about because
you already know it right we've done this for
20 minutes we've given them you know four rounds
of this medication and so you're kind of checking
boxes but in layman terms with them and um and
then i like to tell them um we are getting ready
to stop is there anything that you can think
of that we can do differently before we stop
that might help And so that kind of gives the
family an opportunity to chime in and be a part
of the termination. And so as kind of crazy as
it sounds, what's happening in our minds is we
as healthcare professionals came to this job
to help people and to save lives, right? And
I know you're batting zero, but we all aren't,
right? And so what happens is when we, Can't
save somebody, even if we believe that everybody
dies at their own time, like no matter what your
belief system is. When we don't get pulses back,
when we don't save somebody, when we have to
pronounce somebody dead, there is a part of us
that feels like we failed at our job. There is
part of that that you're never going to forget.
Right. You have every single person that's in
this industry and you have calls. You are never
going to forget for the rest of your life, not
the rest of your career, right? We don't get
to retire and retire these memories. This is
for the rest of your life. So being able to have
an opportunity when we talk about how we get
to closure as responders is super important because
again, this is about getting out mentally and
physically intact. And if I can sit here and
tell you that this is one of the keys. And the
pathway to success of getting out of this industry
mentally and physically intact, that's pretty
important. And in most instances, the family
members are going to say, you've done everything
you can. Sometimes they may say, can you do it
for five more minutes? Can you give one more
round of that medication? And we can. We can
do that to honor the family. Right. We know that's
not going to make a difference in the patient.
And even if it did, you know, sometimes if you
got an iota of anything back, like rhythm wise
for the patient, it's usually not going to change
the outcome. But nonetheless. And then you want
to extend the opportunity for them to come in
and say goodbye to their loved one. And so in
this particular instance, I said they said, no,
you've done everything that you can. And I said,
would you like to come in and be a part of the
termination? And when we pronounce your mother
dead, now we're using dead, death and dying very
clearly, very calmly, steady cadence with kindness
and compassion. And that's usually when you're
going to see the next level of an emotional response.
Right. But now they're getting to where they
are understanding that this is real and this
is really going to happen. And the really unique
opportunity that we have to give this to people
is something only that we get to offer. Right.
If they're just if if if we don't do any of that,
the next time they get to say goodbye to their
loved one is going to be when they're cold, dead
and stiff. You know, and so, again, remember
that a lot of these family members think that
we're kind of keeping their family alive. And
so sometimes I'll even tell people, you know,
the last senses that go before we die are our
sense of hearing and our sense of touch. That's
why when you have a patient that is fighting
for their life and you're fighting for them,
you talk to them. Right. Fight with me. Stay
with me. Open your eyes. Squeeze my hands because
they can hear you even when they're dying, even
when they're actively dying. To what point? Maybe
we don't really know. Right. I'm not in that
spiritual realm. And maybe it's based off of
your beliefs, you know, but. So I don't have
any problem telling people, you know, come in
and kiss her, tell your lover and say whatever
last things you want to say. And so we bring
the family in. In this particular instance, as
soon as we walked in the door with the family,
I told the crew, I said, hey, LT, you guys can
go ahead and stop resuscitation and pronounce
the time of death. And now I'm saying it again.
So now this is probably at this point the second
time I've said dead, death, or dying to them,
and they know this is it. Now, again, remember,
to them, a lot of family members believe that.
there's a potential that their loved one might
still be able to hear them. So what we're offering
something to them is something very unique. It's
a very unique opportunity that's going to facilitate
the grieving process. And so it's really important
for people to understand that grieving is the
healing, not the hurting. So what we're doing
is we're helping with the healing. And that's
really the most important thing to think about
when we're having these conversations with family
members. So the family came in, they all sat
down and they said, can we say the Lord's prayer?
And I said, of course you can. And then they
said, will you join us? Right. And I think this
is an area where some people get a little. unsure
of how to proceed when you have a patient that's
saying, will you pray with me, which I've had
people do many times over the course of my career,
you know? And, and so what I like to tell people
is, and I was raised in the church aligned with
my beliefs. I felt fine with it. I got down on
my knees. I prayed with them. And so did a couple
of the other crew members. And I'm going to tell
you, not only did we profoundly change the lives
of the family that was there and help facilitate
that grieving process, but in that moment, it
profoundly changed the lives of the first responders
on that call. Hands down. And so we debriefed
after that call. And the crews kind of had a
little bit of a hodgepodge crew. So about 50
percent of them were assigned there and had never
seen that before. I do that with all the codes
that I go on. That's my goal of what it's supposed
to look like. And they said, you know, we've
never, ever seen that before. And so what I encourage
people to do on the religious side of it when
that happens is I've prayed with people. And
what I tell people is I hold their hand. I'm
literally delivering psychological first aid.
And I hold their hand and I tell them, you lead
the prayer. Now, I might be spooked out if they
start praying to Satan, you know, or something.
But at the end of the day, it wakes up. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. But at the end of the day, we're
there for them. So whatever they believe in,
they can pray to. I'll hold their hand. And at
the end of it, I'll say amen or something, you
know. So our beliefs don't always have to align.
We don't have to be that sensitive about stuff
like that. We're really just there for them,
you know. And so it's real important to understand
that. We're facilitating the grieving process
for the family, but this is how we get to closure
as first responders, right? And all the research
and all the data is showing that getting to closure
for us, being competent in the job, right? Being
competent, right? Which comes from training and
education, right? Getting all those reps in and
having experience, having these conversations.
Being competent and being confident are two of
the biggest pillars of how we are going to respond
and handle calls and the stress of the call.
And then interacting with the patient and their
families is how we get to closure. And that's
how we're going to have, that's literally the
pathway and the key to success. of our mental
well -being after these calls because we don't
have to have a 911 or a pulse event for us to
need cism and debriefing right it is these are
the everyday calls that we have we don't have
to have some catastrophic event it doesn't have
to be a pediatric code for us to need closure
it's the everyday call where we're seeing people
suffer whether they're dead or not right leaving
people in a suffering state is a moral insult
to our soul you know and feeling like even if
it was even if even if grandma was 90 and she
died and she was and in your mind you're like
man well she had a great life 90 years old that's
that's pretty good and old you know like we can't
save everybody i believe that we can't save everybody
um but even when we have to pronounce somebody
dead there is part of that burden that we still
carry and when you involve family members, and
you allow them to be part of that decision -making
process, you are sharing that burden with them.
So you are not carrying the burden alone. And
I think that's really important. And getting
people to understand that really doesn't take
much because the first time they have the courage
to try it, they feel it. And it's pretty profound.
And so usually after These presentations, I usually
have someone that calls me or contacts me some
way and says, I tried it and oh my God, that
was so powerful. And it's just a unique opportunity
that we have that we're not taking advantage
of because we don't talk about it enough. And
frankly, we have to talk to other people and
that's difficult for us to do sometimes. It makes
a lot of sense because when I think about all
the deaths. And I hear this from other first
responders. It wasn't to say it's more the traumatic
deaths. It wasn't so much the grotesque nature
of the car accident or wherever it was. It was
the wails of the loved ones that really kind
of reverberate. I had a code. A young man was
dropping off a dog at a resort before going,
spending a vacation there and literally just
keeled over. Another, you know, another event
that you're not going to return from. But the
code. went perfectly and i think this is the
thing when you talked about training if you're
not training your department properly if you're
not holding them to the right standard if you're
not giving them those reps you're setting them
up for mental health challenges because there's
going to be that doubt would that person have
made it had i got that io had i done my compressions
properly whatever it was but that particular
one we still had a somewhat of a rhythm so we
worked in 20 minutes we we transported And ultimately,
he didn't make it. It was a bleed. And I was
doing, if you remember, RMC, the report writing
area was right next to the grief room where they
would do the notifications in the hospital. Oh,
my goodness. And so I'm 10 feet, if that, from
this room typing, and I just hear these screams.
And I think this is where there's a lot of value
in what you've been talking about is you're now
making a connection with that traumatized family.
before it's just this wails and you're from it
i remember years ago in california we had a gangbang
shooting and the kid i think was like 15 and
i remember pulling the yellow sheet over him
and then the whole fucking park just erupted
in screams and the dark gallows humor in me thought
well if i pull the sheet back will they stop
and then i go forward again and then stop that's
because that's the way we think up because we're
fucked up But, you know, again, it was that I
can remember vaguely the kid, but I remember
the screams and the heartbroken families far
more than that. So by actually creating a bridge
to those very people that are traumatized, it
makes perfect sense to me. Yeah. And a lot of
times what you find is people, families that
are very appreciative and loving towards you.
And we're in a moment where we probably need.
some level of validation and appreciation you
know because in order for us to you know we love
to say we're doing everything we can but it turns
out that we have to not just say it but we have
to believe it And so when families tell you,
you did everything you can, thank you for trying,
like, you know what I mean? It kind of reinforces
that you also know, right? So the way that we
believe that we've done everything we can is
through confidence and competence, right? But
then when you get that validation from the family,
nobody else can give that to you, you know, and
as a responder. And so it's interesting because
the... Journal of American Medical Associates
back in 2016 had an article on this, and it's
called The Resuscitation That Never Ends. And
it literally talks about, have you read it? I
haven't, no. It's a great title. Yeah, yeah.
Well, and it's because it's a great, great title.
And it's because it's really true. And that's
basically what it's talking about is that. having
the competency and being confident in what you
do in route and on scene are the building blocks
of closure for you as a provider, not for the
family, right? But for you as a provider, this
was back in 2016, almost 10 years ago, you know,
and a really profound article and just really
underscoring. How that impact over a 25 or 30,
30 year career is a deadly combination when we
don't have it. You know, and and I and I just
can't say it enough. You know, like I said earlier,
those calls that you that you'll never forget
the sounds, things you did, things you didn't
do. You know, I worked at one particular station
for 13 years of my career and I can drive down
that road in that area and tell you. everything.
I'll never forget any of it. Not because I haven't
tried, you know, but you just never going to
forget these things. So I'll say you have like
this hypothetical cup in your head of all these
memories of these things that you've seen and
done, things you've heard, things you've seen,
things you've done, things you haven't done,
that you never want to look back and wonder if
that had a negative impact on your patient's
outcome. And you you don't get to ever empty
that cup the cup runneth over you know so what
you do in that moment for your own mental health
your own future is so important because we have
to get to closure as first responders not just
on high acuity calls you know but if you think
about the opportunities that we have to interface
with families Even when we have, let's say, it's
still a critical call, right? But even if you
say like a STEMI, right? So what I encourage
my guys to do and what I do when I'm on scene
is I have the crew stop. We package the patient
for transport. They're getting ready to go to
the hospital. You know they're going to take
this patient right to the cath lab. You know
people die in the cath lab. So if you stopped
for 30 seconds. So what I do is I tell the crew,
hold on just a minute, guys. And I go get the
loved one, the husband, the wife, or whoever
it is, and I tell them, I say, would you like
to come over and say I love you before we leave?
Sometimes they're driving in separate vehicles.
Sometimes they have to do something with the
kids first before they come. What if by the time
they get to the hospital, their loved one is
dead? That's happened to me. We were pacing him,
and she said, I love you. We closed the doors,
and in about two minutes en route, we lost capture
and never got him back. Yeah, and I'm going to
tell you, as terrible as that is, At least the
last thing, one of the last things that you remember
and that she'll never forget is that she at least
got to say, I love you. And those were her last
words to him and the last words that he got to
hear. And that's still profound. And that is
still a part of the process of how we get to
closure. So being able to afford that opportunity
to somebody is very unique and we just don't
think about it, but it's very powerful, you know,
because. even if somebody is still, if someone's
dead, but they're still warm, right? Like we're
still actively working the code and we allow
the family member to come over and say, I love
you. I don't tell, I don't use the words like
come over and say goodbye. Cause then they're
like, Oh, they're going to die. I don't do that.
My go -to phrase is, would you like to come over
and say, I love you before we go? You know, sometimes
people are like, no, it's okay. I'm like, okay.
You know, but I afforded them that opportunity
that nobody else was going to. Okay. And So even
if they choose not to take it, you're still offering
them something that's very unique. And it's part
of the closure process for us, you know? And
it doesn't have to be these high acuity, crazy
calls that we do this on. When you have strokes,
when you have STEMIs, right? It's going, it feels
different. If you've ever lost somebody that
you love and you got to say goodbye to them when
they were warm and they still feel like they're
kind of there. It's different than when you say
goodbye to them in a casket or when they're cold,
stiff and dead. And so we don't know that these
critically injured patients that we take to the
hospital are going to survive their injuries.
They might die in the cath lab. Right. They might
stroke out and that and they'll have no other
memory of anything other than what you gave them,
what you gave them before you left the scene.
And so I think we have to slow down and take
better care of our patients in that regard. But
understanding that doing that, taking better
care of them in turn is taking better care of
us because we are taking an opportunity to be
impacted in our mental health. We you know, we
don't want to think of it in those terms, but
that's what we're doing. We're allowing ourselves
to get to closure. And we know that doing that
over not doing it over a 25 or 30 year career,
we see what's happening to people. You know,
James, I just talked the other day to one of
our guys who's pretty close to retirement and
struggling tremendously. And when we talk about
this, this is exactly why I talk about it. Because
it's so hard to believe that this guy is so close
to the end of his career and mentally struggling
more than he is. ever has right and probably
that person that came into the industry thinking
that doesn't bother me i'm not going to be affected
by this stuff right we all want to believe or
maybe we never even thought about it before right
like i never came into the fire service thinking
all these calls were going to me up and i and
i'm not even i'm not even like a sensitive kind
of girl you know like i believe that when it's
your time it's your time it's preordained when
you know like i'm one of those people that believes
that everything happens for a reason and And
we can't we can't change that. Right. But it
doesn't mean that when we when people die and
we're there, that we don't hold on to and harvest
some sort of pain from that in our heart and
our soul and your mind, like whatever. Right.
And so. When you see this over 25 or 30 year
career and you leave the fire service, you you've
been a. A servant to the people for 25 years
and you're haunted by your own memories that
the only answer to your pain and suffering is
to take your own life. And so for me to talk
about this all the time, but then just recently
interact with one of our one of our guys who
has less than a year left in his career and is
mentally suffering. And it's not always it's
not always completely job related. Right. There's
a lot of things that you start to reflect on
in your personal life. Right. About marriages
and relationships and kids and your relationships
with your kids about whether you mess those up
or not. And how much was that impacted by our
cold, callous job that we do? Our early life,
too, is something we don't talk about a lot from
in vitro through to when you put the badge on.
That has an impact as well. Yes. Yeah. And so,
you know, the reality is what we what these actually
are, are trauma markers that we're creating in
our body. You know, that's what that's what these
are. I mean, right. And I don't mean like a traumatic
call. I mean, like it's trauma. There's mental
trauma, spiritual trauma, physical, sexual, all
kinds of all kinds of traumas. And so that's
what's happening is we're actually creating.
We're not creating, but what's happening to our
body are traumas that we just never get to get
rid of. And there's so much research and so many
people's stories out there about it. And unfortunately,
just like you mentioned earlier, when we have
organizations that are only tracking firefighter
suicides that are active duty is not the whole
picture. Of what's happening out there. And so
sadly, we're seeing many people come to the end
of their career and the end of their own lives.
You know, and and so this is a this is a gateway
to closure. And so I don't just talk about this,
you know. For myself, I I try to show up. We
run about 60 to 80 codes a month. In our organization.
And in my area, I oversee six stations, second
in command of six stations. And in my area, I
ask my guys to add me to every code. I can only
go to the ones I hear on the radio, the ones
they add me to, but I go to every code that I'm
added to. And my goal when I show up is to do
this because I want them to see what this looks
like. And I specifically tell them. So this is
my mission. This is what I'm doing. I'm not showing
up to be the protocol police. That's not what
I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to show up and
bust your balls, take over your call, call you
out. Obviously, I'm going to make sure we're
all doing our job because that is an important
factor in us getting to closure also. Because
again, you have to be competent and competent.
Those are the two big pillars to get to closure.
So if you're screwing up on a call, that's not
going to help you get to closure. But my goal
is to show up and show them. what this looks
like in hopes that they get some closure and
that they learn this process and they have good,
happy, healthy careers and retirements. And so
I'm just doing everything that I can to get that
message out to people and really help them understand
what is the point in doing this. And the point
in doing it is not. It is for other people, right?
So when I say this, yes, we're doing more for,
just do more for other people. Have these hard
conversations. I know they're difficult, but
the reason why is the most profound, and that
is to save your own life. Absolutely. And the
gentleman or the firefighter that you're referring
to, this is what's so scary, is when you go to
the fire station, if you do have a cohesive firehouse,
that's still nurturing. You're still able to
have the firehouse banter and you're enjoying
it. And if you're like we used to as 70, if you're
playing Bay hockey and breaking windows and fixing
them before anyone sees, it's a healing element.
But for our retirees that transition now, sadly
because of the landscape, they may well be divorced.
They may be living in a one bedroom apartment.
And now they don't have the firehouse. They've
lost their identity as a firefighter because
they go to the store. No one gives a shit what
you used to do. And then that purpose. I used
to love, I had a 70 mile drive to and from the
station. I used to love driving home. And again,
yes, I was a full on reaper if you went to cardiac
arrest, but numerous pre -code saves, of course.
And that's an amazing thing. Traumatic pre -codes
and all those things. And it was just a back
to bed call. And you change someone's life by
cleaning them up and putting them in a fresh
set of clothes and putting them back to bed.
You know you made a difference and you've lost
that too. So someone who's already struggling
at the end of their career, that's a very dangerous
place when we go transitioning out. So we need
to really envelop him and give him the tools
that he needs to start working on himself now
and finding that tribe to transition into. find
a pickleball group to start playing with. You
know what I mean? Because if you leave that man
or that woman isolated when they're already struggling
with a, again, we all know Orange County, depending
on where you're stationed, your career could
be almost a flat line like 86 used to be, or
you could be 50, 42. And it's almost a vertical
line with your learning curve and the amount
of trauma that you've accumulated. So, you know,
we really need to identify that, that, um, enveloping
of our people that are almost at the end of their
career and really start helping them transition
and preparing them for some of these jarring
things that they're going to get. Because I would
argue that the silent majority of suicides and
overdoses and death by alcoholism are our retirees.
That's when the heart disease manifests. That's
when the cancer manifests. But we're not counted.
There's no VA for firefighters. So you're not
on the statistics. So those are the ones we have
to watch more than anyone, in my opinion. Mm
hmm. Yeah. And I think that's another thing to
really touch on, you know, is the alcohol and
substance abuse. And, you know, again, I'm not
a hypocrite, so I can't sit here and say that
I haven't been that person that's like, oh, man,
that was a bad call. Let's go have a drink or
man, that was a terrible shift or, you know,
sometimes we celebrate fires. Right. You know,
but the reality is that it is so important to
understand your intent or your friend's intent.
you know, pulling on your shoulder to say, let's
go have this drink, you know, or whatever. And
I think that it's just so important to understand
that whatever substance or alcohol or action,
right, because there's other things also that
you're consuming to numb out pain also numbs
out love and joy in your life. And I just I just
think it's important to make mention of that
and and be aware, because, you know, if someone
called me tonight and was like, hey, let's go
have a bottle of wine and talk about this. I'm
going to say, hell, yeah. Right. But, you know,
there's just so many instances where when we're
talking about that brotherhood earlier, where.
We it's it's a lot different in the last five
years, the last 10 years, but definitely the
last five years. There's a profound difference
in the connections happening in the stations.
So what happens is when we used to come back
and stay up and talk about these calls and things
like that. And maybe they weren't even in the
middle of the night. Right. But we would come
back and we everyone sit around the kitchen table
and we almost had our own debriefing. You didn't
even ask if you were doing it. You didn't have
to go rally people to come and do it. We just
did it. And that's not really happening much
anymore because people are going back to their
rooms or back to their bunks, back to whatever
they were doing, back on their social media.
They're looking for their own fix to forget about
or mend that pain. that they're suffering from.
And so we don't get those connections the same
way in the stations after these calls either.
And it's hard to keep track, even in leadership,
it's hard to keep track of, like, who's okay
and who's not, right? You know, and I think that's
just a higher level of awareness that people
need to have for each other. You know, we should
know. We should get to know one another that
we're working with. And if, you know, if you
have someone floating in for the day, you don't
know if maybe they, I mean, I actually had a
guy that came to me a few months ago and I had
showed up on a call. I don't, he doesn't usually
work in our area, so he wasn't used to seeing
this, but we had ran a call and he saw my presentation
and then he came up to me and he says, you know,
nobody in this department knows this. He goes,
but. I had to work a code on my own child. And
so he's telling me this whole story. And he obviously
just felt the need to really share it with me.
And it was invaluable. But this is an exact example
about how many hundreds of people has he worked
with that he's probably worked pediatric codes
with. They don't even know this about him. And
we just don't we're not taking the time to get
to know one another because we're so engrossed
in doing other things and all the training things
that we have to do and all the mandatory this
and, you know, all the other computer training
we have to do and stuff that's taking time away
from the building of that brotherhood where we're
able to check on each other, you know. And so
and then, of course, there's. There's never any
substance abuse in the fire service, so we don't
have to worry about that. But it's just so important
to check on each other and get to know one another
so that when we're coming back from these everyday
calls, again, it doesn't have to be a child that
died. It's the everyday call that we're working
on how we get to closure and how we survive.
this industry and how we get out mentally and
physically intact hitting on the alcohol for
a second what people don't realize is it's a
sleep disruptor as well so you've got you know
56 hour week you might have had a probably had
a mandatory and now you go home and i get it
i did it i didn't realize how much i drank through
my career not binge drinking but frequent air
quotes relaxing drinking wind down um And it
disrupts your sleep. So you're compounding that
sleep deprivation. And I think the other terrifying
thing, if you look at most suicides, alcohol
is involved. And I always kind of give this analogy.
If you think about when we were young, there
were times, I know with me at least, where you
meet someone and you end up having a one -night
stand or whatever. And then the next morning,
you're like, oh, shit. You know, I didn't actually
find that person that attractive. And here we
are. It's the same with alcohol. You get people
who are close to crisis. That invisible hand
is still stopping them from, you know, making
a permanent decision for a temporary problem.
But when you add alcohol in. Again, it distorts
your reality. All of a sudden, that guy or girl
is way more attractive than they were. All of
a sudden, that resistance that you take in your
own life starts to melt away and you get that
air of Dutch courage. So that's another important
thing about alcohol is if you're in a crisis,
think that you're compounding your own sleep
and you're actually taking away some of the kind
of training wheels, the safety mechanisms around
you taking your own life. That's for sure. All
right. Well. I want to be mindful of your time
for people listening. If they want to reach out
to you, they want to learn more about the presentation
that you're giving to Orange County. Where are
the best places to do that? So my best contact
information is I'm going to give you my email
address and I'm going to give you my cell phone
number. And I am happy to come out and talk more
about this. Talk to people one on one. I talk
to. um people in mass quantities and i'll be
giving this presentation the full presentation
at the first their first care conference which
is down south that's one of florida's largest
ems conferences i'll be back down there in um
uh in july july is it june or july and that's
down south and of course i'm giving the presentation
at our preceptors academy that's coming up um
And those are open for other people to attend.
So my contact information for that is my cell
phone number is 407 -616 -2270. And then my email
address is diana .alexander .ocfl .net. And I
think the beautiful thing about giving this presentation
is I go anywhere and I give it at no charge.
And the reason why I do that is because I hold
hardly believe that this message will change
people's lives. And I wouldn't want anybody to
not get the information on account of money.
And so I will take my own personal time and come
out of, like I said, I just gave it to an entire
department. I'm here locally across three shifts
and I'm going down south to give it at that conference.
I have another department down south that has
me coming. And then I'll also be at the Polk
County EMS conference that Dr. Banerjee puts
on. He asked me to come out and give it there
in. I think that's in May. I got a lot of dates.
I can't remember them all, but most of where
I give the presentations are open for other people
to attend and it's worth seeing. And I'm happy
to answer questions, talk more about it, or just
listen to people talk. I think it's, it really
has its place. And I really appreciate the opportunity
to come on here and talk to you about it. And
obviously talking with you anyways is wonderful,
but it's an honor to be able to give that to
other people. So thank you for your time.