WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.620 This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran 00:00:02.620 --> 00:00:04.960 -owned and operated performance optimization 00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:08.039 company that I introduced recently as a sponsor 00:00:08.039 --> 00:00:10.820 on this show. Well, since then I have actually 00:00:10.820 --> 00:00:13.080 been using my products and I have had incredible 00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:15.939 success. There was initial blood work that was 00:00:15.939 --> 00:00:19.039 extremely detailed and based on that they offered 00:00:19.039 --> 00:00:23.559 supplementation. So I began taking DHEA. bpc 00:00:23.559 --> 00:00:26.539 157 for inflammation based on the fact that i've 00:00:26.539 --> 00:00:28.859 been a stuntman a martial artist and a firefighter 00:00:28.859 --> 00:00:31.980 my whole life lots of aches and pains dihexa 00:00:31.980 --> 00:00:34.759 to help cognition after multiple punches to the 00:00:34.759 --> 00:00:37.820 head and shift work and peptides four months 00:00:37.820 --> 00:00:40.119 later they did a detailed blood work again and 00:00:40.119 --> 00:00:43.119 i was actually able to taper off two of the peptides 00:00:43.119 --> 00:00:45.640 because my body had responded so well to just 00:00:45.640 --> 00:00:48.079 one of them that it was optimized at that point 00:00:48.570 --> 00:00:51.890 So I cannot speak highly enough of the immense 00:00:51.890 --> 00:00:54.390 range of supplementation that they offer, whether 00:00:54.390 --> 00:00:57.409 it's male health, female health, peptides to 00:00:57.409 --> 00:00:59.429 boost your own testosterone, which I would argue 00:00:59.429 --> 00:01:02.429 is needed by a lot of the fire service, or whether 00:01:02.429 --> 00:01:04.569 it's exogenous testosterone needed, especially 00:01:04.569 --> 00:01:08.000 after TBIs or advanced age. Now, as I mentioned 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:10.379 before, the other side of this company is an 00:01:10.379 --> 00:01:12.900 altruistic arm called the Transcend Foundation, 00:01:13.420 --> 00:01:15.980 which is putting veterans and first responders 00:01:15.980 --> 00:01:19.120 through some of their protocols free of charge. 00:01:19.379 --> 00:01:22.079 Now, Transcend are also offering you, the audience, 00:01:22.260 --> 00:01:25.319 10 % off their protocols. And you can find that 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:28.040 on jamesgearing .com under the Products tab. 00:01:28.400 --> 00:01:30.859 And if you want to hear more about Transcend 00:01:30.859 --> 00:01:34.560 and their story, listen to episode 808 with the 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:38.950 founder, Ernie Colling. or go to transcendcompany 00:01:38.950 --> 00:01:43.790 .com. This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr, 00:01:43.790 --> 00:01:45.890 yet another company that's doing great things 00:01:45.890 --> 00:01:49.010 for the first responder community. As a strength 00:01:49.010 --> 00:01:51.290 and conditioning coach myself, who also trains 00:01:51.290 --> 00:01:54.469 tactical athletes, dissemination of wellness 00:01:54.469 --> 00:01:56.650 information is one of the biggest challenges. 00:01:57.310 --> 00:01:59.569 Now, TeamBuildr is the premier strength and 00:01:59.569 --> 00:02:01.930 conditioning software for tactical athletes. 00:02:02.230 --> 00:02:04.689 And there are several features that really impress 00:02:04.689 --> 00:02:08.240 me. Firstly, there is a full exercise library, 00:02:08.379 --> 00:02:10.680 so you, the personal trainer, does not have to 00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:13.879 create that within your own department. Secondly, 00:02:14.039 --> 00:02:17.340 you can send out programming, but also individualize, 00:02:17.419 --> 00:02:20.180 which I love. So you blanket program for everyone. 00:02:20.379 --> 00:02:23.120 Now you can tweak based on someone's injury, 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:25.800 someone's need to maybe drop some body composition, 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:28.759 rather than having to write a program for every 00:02:28.759 --> 00:02:31.520 single person on their own. TeamBuildr also 00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:34.000 allows you to build custom questionnaires to 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:37.039 collate health and wellness data. It integrates 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:39.580 with wearables. And I think one of the most important 00:02:39.580 --> 00:02:43.419 things is obviously it tracks. To me, it's imperative 00:02:43.419 --> 00:02:46.879 that we as a profession start tracking our people 00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:50.759 from day one and then over the full span of their 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:53.979 career, therefore catching potential wellness 00:02:53.979 --> 00:02:57.520 issues and injuries before they happen. Now, 00:02:57.539 --> 00:02:59.740 if you want to try TeamBuildr, they are offering 00:02:59.740 --> 00:03:02.080 you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast, 00:03:02.500 --> 00:03:06.699 a free 14 -day trial to experience all of the 00:03:06.699 --> 00:03:09.240 features. And if you want to take a deeper dive 00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:13.759 into Team Builder, listen to episode 1032 with 00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:17.780 Melissa Mercado or go to teambuildr .com. And 00:03:17.780 --> 00:03:19.300 I'll spell that to you because it's not as you 00:03:19.300 --> 00:03:25.990 think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome 00:03:25.990 --> 00:03:27.789 to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, 00:03:27.810 --> 00:03:29.610 my name is James Gearing and this week it is 00:03:29.610 --> 00:03:32.409 my absolute honor to welcome on the show strength 00:03:32.409 --> 00:03:35.370 and conditioning coach and researcher Daniel 00:03:35.370 --> 00:03:38.189 Higuera. Now for many of you that listen to the 00:03:38.189 --> 00:03:41.289 podcast, I talk about firefighter physical and 00:03:41.289 --> 00:03:43.969 mental health and especially the impact of shift 00:03:43.969 --> 00:03:47.189 work on both. And one of the pushbacks I get 00:03:47.189 --> 00:03:49.870 is, oh yeah, but can you show me the data? And 00:03:49.870 --> 00:03:53.689 the sad fact is many areas have not been researched 00:03:53.689 --> 00:03:57.129 on firefighters specifically. My guest today, 00:03:57.270 --> 00:04:00.370 Daniel, has actually collated numerous studies 00:04:00.370 --> 00:04:02.969 from around the world, from fire departments 00:04:02.969 --> 00:04:05.469 from other countries and also professions that 00:04:05.469 --> 00:04:08.610 mirror what we do. So in this conversation, we 00:04:08.610 --> 00:04:11.789 discuss a host of topics from his own journey 00:04:11.789 --> 00:04:15.110 into the world of coaching, working with sporting 00:04:15.110 --> 00:04:18.339 athletes. the impact of sleep deprivation on 00:04:18.339 --> 00:04:21.980 acuity and performance, the chronic impact on 00:04:21.980 --> 00:04:25.779 mental health, testosterone depletion, weight 00:04:25.779 --> 00:04:29.040 gain, the Swedish firefighter study that showed 00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:32.660 that 72 hours was the minimum for recovery, and 00:04:32.660 --> 00:04:35.819 so much more. Now, before we get to this incredible 00:04:35.819 --> 00:04:38.500 conversation, as I say every week, please just 00:04:38.500 --> 00:04:41.160 take a moment, go to whichever app you listen 00:04:41.160 --> 00:04:44.709 to this on, subscribe to the show. Leave feedback 00:04:44.709 --> 00:04:48.569 and leave a rating. Every single five -star rating 00:04:48.569 --> 00:04:51.709 truly does elevate this podcast, therefore making 00:04:51.709 --> 00:04:55.370 it easier for others to find. And this is a free 00:04:55.370 --> 00:05:00.329 library of over 1 ,000 episodes now. So all I 00:05:00.329 --> 00:05:03.829 ask in return is that you help share these incredible 00:05:03.829 --> 00:05:06.370 men and women's stories so I can get them to 00:05:06.370 --> 00:05:09.250 every single person on planet Earth who needs 00:05:09.250 --> 00:05:13.000 to hear them. So with that being said... I introduce 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:36.779 to you Daniel Higuera. Enjoy. Well, Daniel, I 00:05:36.779 --> 00:05:38.839 want to start by saying two things. Firstly, 00:05:39.019 --> 00:05:41.360 thank you to Justin DeMoss, one of my previous 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:43.980 guests that helped make the connection. And secondly, 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:46.240 to welcome you onto the Behind the Shield podcast 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:49.360 today. Well, thank you for having me on. Justin 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:51.240 DeMoss has been a colleague for a couple of years 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:54.540 now. So it's funny because you guys are at Santa 00:05:54.540 --> 00:05:56.720 Ana College. I was an Anaheim firefighter for 00:05:56.720 --> 00:05:59.720 a few years. So you literally did, not you personally, 00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:01.639 but your organization literally used to do our 00:06:01.639 --> 00:06:04.120 annual physical tests years ago when I was working 00:06:04.120 --> 00:06:05.980 there. So it's interesting we're having this 00:06:05.980 --> 00:06:08.920 conversation 20 years later. Yeah. So when I 00:06:08.920 --> 00:06:11.819 got brought on with Santa Ana College, I think 00:06:11.819 --> 00:06:14.759 Anaheim was with us for another two, three years 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:18.480 or so. And then Anaheim left our program for 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:22.899 a local competitor. But Anaheim was one, at least 00:06:22.899 --> 00:06:24.720 this is the stories that I hear, is Anaheim was 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:26.839 the number one department that we had or the 00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:29.800 first department that we as a program at the 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:33.319 college offered health and wellness services 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:36.879 to. Okay, well, very first question. Where on 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:38.899 planet Earth are we finding you this afternoon 00:06:38.899 --> 00:06:41.980 or your morning? We're on planet Earth. I'm in 00:06:41.980 --> 00:06:44.399 Southern California, more specifically Orange, 00:06:44.740 --> 00:06:48.949 city of Orange in Orange County. Brilliant. Well, 00:06:48.990 --> 00:06:50.670 I would love to start at the very beginning of 00:06:50.670 --> 00:06:52.949 your timeline. So tell me where you were born 00:06:52.949 --> 00:06:54.750 and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, 00:06:54.970 --> 00:06:58.029 what your parents did, how many siblings. So 00:06:58.029 --> 00:07:01.170 I was born in LA in Lincoln Heights. I was there 00:07:01.170 --> 00:07:04.709 until maybe four or five years old, then moved 00:07:04.709 --> 00:07:08.089 about 20 miles east of LA, not east LA, but east 00:07:08.089 --> 00:07:11.310 of LA, the city, to a city called La Puente. 00:07:12.039 --> 00:07:15.740 And then there, me and my sister, mom and dad, 00:07:15.779 --> 00:07:18.040 we were there. And then I have two older, or 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:20.199 an older brother and older sister. They're about 00:07:20.199 --> 00:07:23.160 maybe 20 years older than me. Yeah, about 20 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:26.519 years older than me. And they are from my dad's 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:28.060 first marriage. So they're my half brother, half 00:07:28.060 --> 00:07:30.120 sister, but we still call each other brothers 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:31.680 and sisters, and we've never, ever addressed 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:35.180 each other as halves. But my parents are immigrants. 00:07:35.860 --> 00:07:37.860 They came here, my dad came here when he was 00:07:37.860 --> 00:07:42.980 14, 15. Made a life here, went back, married 00:07:42.980 --> 00:07:45.459 my mom, brought her back. And then I was born 00:07:45.459 --> 00:07:48.860 in 91 over here. Immigrants from where? I don't 00:07:48.860 --> 00:07:50.500 want to make an assumption. Oh, they're from 00:07:50.500 --> 00:07:55.220 Mexico. Okay, I was right. So tell me about that, 00:07:55.259 --> 00:07:57.160 because this is especially at the moment. I mean, 00:07:57.220 --> 00:07:59.579 there's a lot of tension. There's a lot of nastiness 00:07:59.579 --> 00:08:01.560 around the word immigrant. I'm an immigrant, 00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:05.399 you know, from UK. What is your parents' immigration 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:07.699 story? What did they talk about as far as the 00:08:07.699 --> 00:08:10.889 environment in Mexico? And then how was their 00:08:10.889 --> 00:08:16.189 transition into the U .S.? So if I reflect back 00:08:16.189 --> 00:08:18.149 on my dad's story, the story that he tells me 00:08:18.149 --> 00:08:21.569 growing up is that he was sent here to study. 00:08:23.529 --> 00:08:27.629 He was sent here by mom and dad because they 00:08:27.629 --> 00:08:30.129 had a little bit of money. I'm not sure how much 00:08:30.129 --> 00:08:31.889 money, but they had a little bit. And they said 00:08:31.889 --> 00:08:34.649 that the thing was they send their child to come 00:08:34.649 --> 00:08:39.049 study in the U .S. So my dad. got here at 14 00:08:39.049 --> 00:08:43.769 -ish years old, and he says he struggled. He 00:08:43.769 --> 00:08:48.610 says the immigration process itself was difficult. 00:08:48.870 --> 00:08:51.830 He doesn't say because of the policies and regulations 00:08:51.830 --> 00:08:55.909 of such. He just had bad luck doing it. He lost 00:08:55.909 --> 00:08:58.690 his luggage, was living with family who wasn't 00:08:58.690 --> 00:09:02.669 too caring, was in and out of that house for 00:09:02.669 --> 00:09:04.629 a couple years, living out of his car, living 00:09:04.629 --> 00:09:07.879 out of movie theaters. living that immigrant 00:09:07.879 --> 00:09:12.779 life until he established himself somehow. And 00:09:12.779 --> 00:09:15.960 then now got established, got married, had two 00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:19.820 kids, got divorced. And my dad's living the single 00:09:19.820 --> 00:09:23.740 life from there. And then he meets my mom back 00:09:23.740 --> 00:09:27.200 in Mexico, brings my mom back over once they're 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:31.320 married. And my mom was struggling to learn the 00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:33.620 language. She went to school while she would 00:09:33.620 --> 00:09:36.330 drop us. me and my sister off at school when 00:09:36.330 --> 00:09:38.210 we were in i don't know kindergarten or first 00:09:38.210 --> 00:09:40.690 grade whatever the year was and she would go 00:09:40.690 --> 00:09:44.049 learn english come back do the whole mom thing 00:09:44.049 --> 00:09:46.309 and then she would maintain that that schedule 00:09:46.309 --> 00:09:49.970 for however long it took her to get her ged over 00:09:49.970 --> 00:09:55.649 here um and then they both hustled to give me 00:09:55.649 --> 00:09:57.809 and my sister everything we wanted and everything 00:09:57.809 --> 00:10:00.330 almost everything everything we needed and almost 00:10:00.330 --> 00:10:03.570 everything we wanted what did they end up doing 00:10:03.570 --> 00:10:06.860 profession -wise My dad, he was a professional 00:10:06.860 --> 00:10:08.820 truck driver. He would drive the big freight 00:10:08.820 --> 00:10:11.559 trains. And then my mom was an elementary school 00:10:11.559 --> 00:10:16.100 secretary, front desk. Brilliant. And they gave 00:10:16.100 --> 00:10:18.299 me the opportunity to go to school and study 00:10:18.299 --> 00:10:20.460 what I wanted to study. I didn't have to worry 00:10:20.460 --> 00:10:21.980 about bills. I didn't have to worry about making 00:10:21.980 --> 00:10:24.700 rent. They said, work if you want. Well, they 00:10:24.700 --> 00:10:26.980 made me work. But they said, use that money for 00:10:26.980 --> 00:10:29.980 you. Don't worry about contributing to the household. 00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:33.850 And that was a huge opportunity for me. Brilliant. 00:10:33.929 --> 00:10:37.669 How much of their journey of your mom working 00:10:37.669 --> 00:10:40.750 in education, of your dad being, you know, coming 00:10:40.750 --> 00:10:42.870 over here on an educational incentive in the 00:10:42.870 --> 00:10:46.389 first place, how much did that impact your journey 00:10:46.389 --> 00:10:49.409 into the educational side yourself? Absolutely 00:10:49.409 --> 00:10:54.529 zero. Nothing whatsoever. I kind of fell into 00:10:54.529 --> 00:10:58.950 this role. So if I go down that story there is 00:10:58.950 --> 00:11:03.419 I was interning, volunteering, working. in sports 00:11:03.419 --> 00:11:06.919 both or in the professional sector or the collegiate 00:11:06.919 --> 00:11:10.240 sector and the private sector and i was trying 00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:12.100 to make a career out of that strength conditioning 00:11:12.100 --> 00:11:17.820 within the sport realm and i had degrees of success 00:11:17.820 --> 00:11:19.940 in it mostly in the private side because then 00:11:19.940 --> 00:11:21.519 i started learning the whole marketing thing 00:11:21.519 --> 00:11:23.580 in the business side of the training world so 00:11:23.580 --> 00:11:26.580 i started building up a good clientele the one 00:11:26.580 --> 00:11:28.940 of the companies i was with for a while they 00:11:28.940 --> 00:11:31.919 wanted to start a the strength and conditioning 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:34.039 branch for the tactical population, but more 00:11:34.039 --> 00:11:38.419 specifically firefighters. So at this time, my 00:11:38.419 --> 00:11:40.879 mentor, his name was Bob Mears. He was a former 00:11:40.879 --> 00:11:44.519 CEO of Reebok and Lululemon. He left that world 00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:47.320 and then started up or partnered up with a company 00:11:47.320 --> 00:11:50.279 called Aesthetic Games. And Aesthetic Games, 00:11:50.379 --> 00:11:53.220 they wanted to start up a tactical branch to 00:11:53.220 --> 00:11:57.129 their program. And somebody tells us, hey, go 00:11:57.129 --> 00:11:59.470 check out Santa Ana College. They have big reach 00:11:59.470 --> 00:12:02.710 in the fire space. Go, we'll have a conversation 00:12:02.710 --> 00:12:05.710 with them. So we go, me and Bob Mears, and he's 00:12:05.710 --> 00:12:07.370 doing the sales pitch. He's telling them what 00:12:07.370 --> 00:12:09.110 we do and what we can do, what direction we're 00:12:09.110 --> 00:12:12.429 going in, the whole thing. Maybe a couple weeks 00:12:12.429 --> 00:12:15.070 later, I get an email from the director at the 00:12:15.070 --> 00:12:16.610 time of the program, Santa Ana College, Terry 00:12:16.610 --> 00:12:20.149 Wan, I'm sure you remember her name. And she 00:12:20.149 --> 00:12:22.509 says, hey, how would you like to get a part -time 00:12:22.509 --> 00:12:25.960 job over here? I said, sure. Send her my resume, 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:29.299 get an interview, and there I was. I was an adjunct 00:12:29.299 --> 00:12:31.120 instructor at Santa Ana College's Department 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:34.159 of Fire Technology. And I was there for about 00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:35.600 two years, two and a half years as a part -time 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:37.899 here. They had a full -time position open up, 00:12:37.940 --> 00:12:40.980 and I said, sure, I'll apply. I'm not thinking 00:12:40.980 --> 00:12:44.659 that I had any real talent in this space. And 00:12:44.659 --> 00:12:48.659 as fate has it, fast forward five, six years 00:12:48.659 --> 00:12:51.059 later, I'm here in the full -time position as 00:12:51.059 --> 00:12:54.659 an associate professor now. What were you playing 00:12:54.659 --> 00:12:56.740 as far as sports and exercise when you were in 00:12:56.740 --> 00:12:58.879 the high school age? I played soccer all the 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:01.879 way from elementary all the way up to, like, 00:13:01.940 --> 00:13:04.899 what, first year of college? Tore my ACL twice, 00:13:04.899 --> 00:13:06.299 went to high school, went to college, and that 00:13:06.299 --> 00:13:10.080 was the end of my sport career. I ran a little 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:12.320 bit of track, ran track all through high school, 00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:15.139 wasn't any good at making it in college. And 00:13:15.139 --> 00:13:18.019 I think that's a story for the majority of kinesiology 00:13:18.019 --> 00:13:20.460 majors is they played some sport, they got hurt. 00:13:20.909 --> 00:13:22.769 They went to physical therapy. The physical therapist 00:13:22.769 --> 00:13:24.649 told them, hey, try this career. It's kinesiology. 00:13:24.830 --> 00:13:28.090 It's fun. So there's 80 % of us in the kinesiology 00:13:28.090 --> 00:13:30.070 field who come from a sport background, tore 00:13:30.070 --> 00:13:32.889 their ACL somehow, and now they're trying to 00:13:32.889 --> 00:13:35.029 figure out a world in sports, a career in sports. 00:13:35.289 --> 00:13:39.090 And that was, sure enough, my story. So I know 00:13:39.090 --> 00:13:41.990 you work with EXOs and some other sports -specific 00:13:41.990 --> 00:13:44.750 organizations first. This is always an interesting 00:13:44.750 --> 00:13:46.970 lens, and I always give the backstory. When I 00:13:46.970 --> 00:13:50.399 moved here from England, Literally, I think after 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:54.039 a year or so, I just started realizing that I 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:57.039 heard so many Uncle Rico stories. These guys 00:13:57.039 --> 00:13:59.019 are now kind of deconditioned. They're in the 00:13:59.019 --> 00:14:02.620 late 20s, early 30s. I could have, would have, 00:14:02.620 --> 00:14:05.799 should have had it not been for my ACL, my shoulder, 00:14:06.039 --> 00:14:08.679 my labia, whatever it was. And it was over and 00:14:08.679 --> 00:14:11.019 over and over again. And this wasn't something 00:14:11.019 --> 00:14:14.159 I was accustomed to back in the UK. But then 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:17.279 when I started seeing... the high level of performance 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:21.039 that was eked out of these high school and collegiate 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:24.240 athletes. And then I'm talking to all these high 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:26.080 level coaches and people that were high level 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:29.799 athletes. I started to see that in some cases, 00:14:29.860 --> 00:14:34.320 performance became far more important than wellness 00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:37.679 and longevity of these youth athletes. With this 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:39.879 lens that you have now, what is your perspective 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:43.179 on that concept? I can answer this question both 00:14:43.179 --> 00:14:47.220 ways. The performance on the sports side is, 00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:49.559 hey, I know you're tired. I know you want to 00:14:49.559 --> 00:14:52.460 do it. Do it. You have to train. You have to 00:14:52.460 --> 00:14:54.159 lift. You have to get up early. You have to, 00:14:54.220 --> 00:14:57.379 you have to, you have to. But that's what it 00:14:57.379 --> 00:14:59.460 takes to move on to that next level. If you want 00:14:59.460 --> 00:15:02.580 to play at that, if you're a D2 and you want 00:15:02.580 --> 00:15:04.879 to play D1, you have to. If you're D1 and you 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:07.259 want to go to the league, you have to, irrespective 00:15:07.259 --> 00:15:10.919 of how you feel. But these are young kids, though. 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:13.299 These are kids who are middle school, high school, 00:15:13.340 --> 00:15:17.759 early college. In the college years, these kids 00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:19.740 would show up to the weight room having a donut 00:15:19.740 --> 00:15:22.379 for breakfast and they would hit some heavy weights. 00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:25.360 And I mean, they're young. But now flip it, go 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:28.440 to this side now where I'm on now. And yes, performance 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:30.379 is still important. Yes, you still have to get 00:15:30.379 --> 00:15:32.720 stronger. Yes, you still have to do your mobility 00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:35.500 training and your cardiovascular training. But 00:15:35.500 --> 00:15:39.419 you also had four calls after midnight. And this 00:15:39.419 --> 00:15:41.779 is your third day on. You may have a forced overtime 00:15:41.779 --> 00:15:46.809 tomorrow. How do you balance that? That is the 00:15:46.809 --> 00:15:50.789 tough one. So one side of me is saying, you have 00:15:50.789 --> 00:15:53.169 to train because all the risk associated with 00:15:53.169 --> 00:15:55.429 the job. The other side of me is saying, you've 00:15:55.429 --> 00:15:58.590 got to recover. You have to let the body rest. 00:15:58.850 --> 00:16:02.129 So that's a tough one. Yeah, 100%. We'll dive 00:16:02.129 --> 00:16:03.570 into that in a bit. I don't want to jump the 00:16:03.570 --> 00:16:06.330 gun yet on the whole sleep conversation. When 00:16:06.330 --> 00:16:09.090 I see the sports world now, I'll give you a perfect 00:16:09.090 --> 00:16:10.970 example, the world that I inhabited, which is 00:16:10.970 --> 00:16:13.460 martial arts. you know when i fought with the 00:16:13.460 --> 00:16:16.559 shoot box gym it was like fight club you just 00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:19.919 got murdered every single class perforated eardrums 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:23.340 broken noses dislocated jaws now if you look 00:16:23.340 --> 00:16:25.759 at the martial arts you know the mma gyms a lot 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:28.139 of them they're realizing that less is more if 00:16:28.139 --> 00:16:30.100 you look a lot of the the hit training and you 00:16:30.100 --> 00:16:32.580 know training philosophies less is more you know 00:16:32.580 --> 00:16:34.559 there's less strength conditioning they're not 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:36.820 doing two three four days anymore like they used 00:16:36.820 --> 00:16:39.740 to so i'm seeing a lot more intelligent training 00:16:40.169 --> 00:16:43.750 and the minimal effective dose versus just beating 00:16:43.750 --> 00:16:45.870 these people to death. And I think with these 00:16:45.870 --> 00:16:48.610 youth athletes, especially the single sport athlete, 00:16:48.889 --> 00:16:51.809 maybe arguably the parents living vicariously 00:16:51.809 --> 00:16:54.809 through their child, you're seeing a lot of broken 00:16:54.809 --> 00:16:58.289 young people that are really being cheated out 00:16:58.289 --> 00:17:01.309 of the love of sports when they actually progress 00:17:01.309 --> 00:17:03.950 out of college. And I think this is why we've 00:17:03.950 --> 00:17:07.170 got such a huge obesity crisis. Whereas if you 00:17:07.170 --> 00:17:09.190 look at some other countries where you're not... 00:17:09.230 --> 00:17:12.670 forging so many high -level athletes in the school 00:17:12.670 --> 00:17:15.549 age, a lot of these adults continue playing sports 00:17:15.549 --> 00:17:19.869 through their 40s, 50s, and beyond. I guess you 00:17:19.869 --> 00:17:24.470 can make that assumption there. For me specifically, 00:17:24.670 --> 00:17:27.349 I kind of got burnt out with soccer not because 00:17:27.349 --> 00:17:29.549 my parents were pushing me on it. It's just something 00:17:29.549 --> 00:17:32.690 I did for years. And eventually I want to try 00:17:32.690 --> 00:17:36.170 something else. But I can definitely see how... 00:17:36.679 --> 00:17:39.039 kids growing up and they're put their parents 00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:40.619 are pushing them their coaches are pushing them 00:17:40.619 --> 00:17:44.119 eventually it just loses the fun i'm sure they 00:17:44.119 --> 00:17:45.700 enjoyed the sport at one point but then they 00:17:45.700 --> 00:17:47.559 lose the fun and they no longer want to do that 00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:50.660 sport how well how much does that translate over 00:17:50.660 --> 00:17:52.920 to the obesity crisis that one i think that's 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:55.640 a bit of a reach i think but now because that's 00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:57.519 i'll be saying hey i was pushed so much when 00:17:57.519 --> 00:17:59.640 i was little now i don't want to do any physical 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:02.759 activity And on top of that, I'm going to consume 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:05.000 a high amount of calories. And then you go down 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:08.940 the poor body composition route. But yeah, I 00:18:08.940 --> 00:18:11.539 think for any of us, when we get pushed too much 00:18:11.539 --> 00:18:13.099 in one direction, eventually we're going to push 00:18:13.099 --> 00:18:16.440 back. And however that looks, that pushing back 00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:20.059 will manifest in, I don't know, less physical 00:18:20.059 --> 00:18:23.279 activity, switching to a different sport, whatever 00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:27.079 that looks like. Absolutely. All right. Well, 00:18:27.140 --> 00:18:32.049 then, as you... Enter the tactical athlete field 00:18:32.049 --> 00:18:34.609 and you have this background with training sporting 00:18:34.609 --> 00:18:37.890 athletes. What was some of the big kind of shock 00:18:37.890 --> 00:18:40.130 moments at the front door? Maybe some of the 00:18:40.130 --> 00:18:42.849 misconceptions that you had about the tactical 00:18:42.849 --> 00:18:47.730 athletes. Misconceptions I had about the tactical 00:18:47.730 --> 00:18:53.069 athlete. I don't think I have a good answer for 00:18:53.069 --> 00:18:58.369 this one. I had. Zero expectation coming into 00:18:58.369 --> 00:19:02.150 work with five. Actually, no, I'm lying. I thought 00:19:02.150 --> 00:19:07.869 I was going to work with what my idea and definition 00:19:07.869 --> 00:19:11.369 of an athlete was. I had a high school, early 00:19:11.369 --> 00:19:15.970 college kid in my mind, someone who's going to 00:19:15.970 --> 00:19:18.289 get up at five and whether they're tired or not, 00:19:18.309 --> 00:19:20.970 get the weights in. And then I start working 00:19:20.970 --> 00:19:23.430 with fire. And that's not to say that you see 00:19:23.430 --> 00:19:27.259 the opposite in fire. But it was now I'm working 00:19:27.259 --> 00:19:32.279 with a wide range of adults. These are your 22 00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:33.960 -year -old kids who are at the Basic Fire Academy 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:36.140 at Santa Ana College, all the way up to your 00:19:36.140 --> 00:19:38.339 52 -year -old firefighter who's ready to retire 00:19:38.339 --> 00:19:41.599 next year. And he has two shoulder surgeries, 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:46.519 a bump hip, and a fused back. So then how do 00:19:46.519 --> 00:19:48.960 I apply this strength and conditioning principles 00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:51.490 that, one, I learned in school and college? that 00:19:51.490 --> 00:19:53.569 I've been applying to the athletic population 00:19:53.569 --> 00:19:57.130 who are 22 years old. Now, how do I apply it 00:19:57.130 --> 00:20:01.410 to this population? This guy, this firefighter, 00:20:01.410 --> 00:20:03.670 Johnny, who's 28 years old and we just got on 00:20:03.670 --> 00:20:06.930 the job, he's all about it. He has time for the 00:20:06.930 --> 00:20:09.750 gym and the job. And it was a little bit easier 00:20:09.750 --> 00:20:12.390 to transition into them. But now, how do I talk 00:20:12.390 --> 00:20:16.170 to that 52 -year -old who he doesn't care too 00:20:16.170 --> 00:20:18.640 much about improving his VO2 max? he doesn't 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:20.960 care too much about improving his his backspot 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:24.299 or his deadlift so what language could i use 00:20:24.299 --> 00:20:28.099 then and that's right i struggled a lot is learning 00:20:28.099 --> 00:20:31.839 the language and communicating correctly did 00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:34.680 you understand how how many hours they work what 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:36.559 the shifts look like prior to actually working 00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:41.220 with them no so having zero idea of the fire 00:20:41.220 --> 00:20:45.369 service my buddies who were trying to become 00:20:45.369 --> 00:20:48.630 firefighters. I remember this specifically. He 00:20:48.630 --> 00:20:50.990 said, let's become firefighters. We're 20 years 00:20:50.990 --> 00:20:52.890 old at this time. Let's become firefighters because 00:20:52.890 --> 00:20:55.210 they fight fires and they go home and sleep the 00:20:55.210 --> 00:20:56.789 whole, they go back to the station and sleep 00:20:56.789 --> 00:20:59.750 and recover. And they just do that for however 00:20:59.750 --> 00:21:02.190 long they're on shift for. And in my mind, I 00:21:02.190 --> 00:21:03.750 was like, oh, that's kind of cool. But I never 00:21:03.750 --> 00:21:05.769 had any type of gravitation towards the service, 00:21:05.829 --> 00:21:09.470 to the fire service. So that's what I thought 00:21:09.470 --> 00:21:12.769 fire did when I was 20 years old before I ever 00:21:12.769 --> 00:21:16.140 got into the field. It's interesting because 00:21:16.140 --> 00:21:18.180 I think, and I've said this, I put this on us, 00:21:18.220 --> 00:21:21.339 our profession. We have done a horrible job of 00:21:21.339 --> 00:21:24.119 showing the world what we actually do. So for 00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:27.160 example, now you go to a city or county council 00:21:27.160 --> 00:21:30.859 board and ask for more funds for whatever it 00:21:30.859 --> 00:21:33.180 is, whether it's a fourth shift to actually have 00:21:33.180 --> 00:21:36.000 a 42 hour work week, whether it's gyms in every 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:38.299 station so you can really put in fitness standards. 00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:40.690 And they're like, well, why do you need? more 00:21:40.690 --> 00:21:43.210 money like you guys just run a fire or two you 00:21:43.210 --> 00:21:44.690 know here and there like you said you go back 00:21:44.690 --> 00:21:46.930 and sleep and smoke cigars and pet the dalmatian 00:21:46.930 --> 00:21:50.650 and play cards and this is 2025 where that couldn't 00:21:50.650 --> 00:21:53.089 be further from the truth so when did you get 00:21:53.089 --> 00:21:55.690 to see behind the curtain of what an actual 24 00:21:55.690 --> 00:21:59.210 -hour shift truly looks like i didn't begin truly 00:21:59.210 --> 00:22:05.599 understanding it until maybe 2020 maybe 21. And 00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:08.660 that's when I started getting an idea of what 00:22:08.660 --> 00:22:10.940 it is to be a firefighter, like what their life 00:22:10.940 --> 00:22:15.759 looks like. And then from there, then my research 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:18.019 academic background kicked in and says, oh, let 00:22:18.019 --> 00:22:19.460 me look this up a little bit more from a peer 00:22:19.460 --> 00:22:21.519 group standpoint. What is the science saying? 00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:23.740 And that's when I started reading about body 00:22:23.740 --> 00:22:26.599 composition and obesity and cardiovascular disease 00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:29.000 and cancers and the mental health and sleep deprivation. 00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:31.359 And the list of topics just began to add up. 00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:35.759 So now I was reading it from this. research perspective 00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:38.539 but research always always going to have limitations 00:22:38.539 --> 00:22:41.000 so i would take whatever was published here and 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:42.660 i would bring it back to the classrooms with 00:22:42.660 --> 00:22:44.480 these guys and say hey i read this thing about 00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:47.019 sleep deprivation mental health cancer whatever 00:22:47.019 --> 00:22:49.940 the topic is what's your guys experience and 00:22:49.940 --> 00:22:54.359 for the most part it was it was the same it takes 00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:56.279 a while to get the guys to really open up especially 00:22:56.279 --> 00:22:59.420 about some of the deeper heavier topics but when 00:22:59.420 --> 00:23:02.940 you do it was very similar to what we're seeing 00:23:02.940 --> 00:23:06.720 in the research To a caveat, I'm sure we're going 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:08.359 to get into the body composition stuff later, 00:23:08.460 --> 00:23:11.180 but that's where I started really opening up 00:23:11.180 --> 00:23:13.400 my eyes. It's like, oh, shit. I don't know if 00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:16.980 I can cuss, but that's when I started thinking, 00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:19.539 oh, man, these guys are on for 48 hours, and 00:23:19.539 --> 00:23:24.339 they're on the whole time. Sure, they're not 00:23:24.339 --> 00:23:28.599 fighting fires. To the outsider, the public looking 00:23:28.599 --> 00:23:30.859 in, they're not doing the hard stuff all the 00:23:30.859 --> 00:23:35.279 time. But responding to that 8, 10, 12, 15 calls 00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:38.660 a day will take a toll. And they have to be very 00:23:38.660 --> 00:23:41.980 sharp for each one of those calls because it 00:23:41.980 --> 00:23:45.579 could mean saving the life of somebody's mom 00:23:45.579 --> 00:23:47.240 and dad, someone's brother and sister, somebody's 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:49.700 daughter, and they have to be making those decisions. 00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:54.359 So that was when I started realizing these people 00:23:54.359 --> 00:24:00.190 have a tough life, a professional life. Let's 00:24:00.190 --> 00:24:02.390 start with body composition. What's interesting 00:24:02.390 --> 00:24:05.769 is if I think of around Anaheim, I would say 00:24:05.769 --> 00:24:07.990 compared to pretty much any other department 00:24:07.990 --> 00:24:12.329 or geographical area of firefighters that I've 00:24:12.329 --> 00:24:15.009 seen around the country, I would put Southern 00:24:15.009 --> 00:24:17.170 California as some of the fittest generally. 00:24:17.369 --> 00:24:19.670 Like in Anaheim, I can remember and count literally 00:24:19.670 --> 00:24:22.730 on one hand, maybe the couple of guys that were 00:24:22.730 --> 00:24:25.640 actually overweight. Yeah, maybe one or two have 00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:28.000 got a bit of a punch. But I mean, compared to 00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:30.079 where I've worked on the East Coast, you know, 00:24:30.099 --> 00:24:31.799 there's a numerous one ones that have pulled 00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:33.440 the steering wheel out of an engine trying to 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:35.819 haul their ass up to drive. And, you know, ones 00:24:35.819 --> 00:24:37.200 that look like they're gonna have a heart attack 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:38.779 when they've climbed a 10 foot ladder. And I'm 00:24:38.779 --> 00:24:40.940 not saying that in a mean way. I'm just saying 00:24:40.940 --> 00:24:43.019 it like this is how large some of these men and 00:24:43.019 --> 00:24:45.059 women are that are wearing the uniform in other 00:24:45.059 --> 00:24:48.640 areas in the country. So have you noticed any 00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:51.819 correlations geographically, whether it's state 00:24:51.819 --> 00:24:55.390 by state, where there are healthier versus less 00:24:55.390 --> 00:24:58.849 healthy people uh well you know um less obese 00:24:58.849 --> 00:25:00.890 or overweight firefighters and have you noticed 00:25:00.890 --> 00:25:05.549 any correlations on why that's the case so a 00:25:05.549 --> 00:25:10.390 paper that gets cited a lot is a 2016 2017 paper 00:25:10.390 --> 00:25:14.069 i think the author is poston p -o -s -p -o -n 00:25:14.069 --> 00:25:18.130 and they what they looked at was it was like 00:25:18.130 --> 00:25:21.369 eight different fire departments across the midwest 00:25:21.849 --> 00:25:24.390 And this was both professional and volunteer 00:25:24.390 --> 00:25:26.910 firefighters. And they did some body composition 00:25:26.910 --> 00:25:30.309 tests, BMI and body fat percentage. And they 00:25:30.309 --> 00:25:32.410 were looking at the cardiovascular risk profiles 00:25:32.410 --> 00:25:35.089 for them. If we're just talking body composition, 00:25:35.170 --> 00:25:38.410 and if we're only talking BMI, body mass index, 00:25:38.750 --> 00:25:42.349 it was like 79 % for the sake of easy conversation 00:25:42.349 --> 00:25:45.490 to say more than 80 % were overweight and or 00:25:45.490 --> 00:25:49.150 obese. But BMI has a bunch of limitations. BMI 00:25:49.150 --> 00:25:51.779 is just height to weight. And it doesn't discriminate 00:25:51.779 --> 00:25:54.819 between the quality of the weight. So it can 00:25:54.819 --> 00:25:57.519 easily be dismissed. You throw body fat percentage 00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:00.000 in there. Now we're using in -body, bioelectrical 00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:04.339 impedance analysis. And when you looked at body 00:26:04.339 --> 00:26:08.619 fat percentage, it was more than 80 % of the 00:26:08.619 --> 00:26:11.259 firefighters were overweight and or obese. Again, 00:26:11.339 --> 00:26:16.180 this is Midwest. So I see this published. Back 00:26:16.180 --> 00:26:18.000 then, I'm using this for my dissertation, kind 00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:19.400 of talking about body composition in the fire 00:26:19.400 --> 00:26:21.710 service. and then i get curious and i start looking 00:26:21.710 --> 00:26:24.630 at the numbers that we have so we work with maybe 00:26:24.630 --> 00:26:28.710 2 000 firefighters per year it's oh damn cramping 00:26:28.710 --> 00:26:32.829 up in my hamstring uh we have we have maybe like 00:26:32.829 --> 00:26:36.230 22 to 25 different fire agencies that we work 00:26:36.230 --> 00:26:39.730 with across four different counties um and so 00:26:39.730 --> 00:26:41.690 i started looking at their numbers and saying 00:26:41.690 --> 00:26:44.210 what body fat looks like on our end what does 00:26:44.210 --> 00:26:47.470 bmi look like on our end and when i just look 00:26:47.470 --> 00:26:52.059 at bmi I would say more than 80, 85 % are overweight, 00:26:52.259 --> 00:26:54.740 not obese, overweight. So this is a BMI greater 00:26:54.740 --> 00:26:57.779 than 25. But then I look at body fat percentage. 00:26:57.880 --> 00:26:59.519 We do two different methods. We do the skinfold 00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:02.279 method, and then we do the in -body, bioelectroimpedance 00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:05.240 analysis. And then from there, we have an average, 00:27:05.299 --> 00:27:11.059 maybe 19 to 20 % body fat, which is on the borderline 00:27:11.059 --> 00:27:13.319 of healthy to maybe a little bit on the overweight 00:27:13.319 --> 00:27:15.559 side. But nonetheless, the majority of it is 00:27:15.559 --> 00:27:20.150 on the, let's say 19 % and under. So if I just 00:27:20.150 --> 00:27:22.950 do that stark comparison right there, fire departments 00:27:22.950 --> 00:27:25.349 in the Midwest compared to fire departments in 00:27:25.349 --> 00:27:28.009 Southern California. And that study that I talked 00:27:28.009 --> 00:27:31.170 about, the Boston one, there was maybe 700 participants 00:27:31.170 --> 00:27:34.269 on. This is not a study on our end on the one 00:27:34.269 --> 00:27:35.750 that we have a body composition, but we have 00:27:35.750 --> 00:27:37.890 maybe 2000 participants on this one. And this 00:27:37.890 --> 00:27:42.190 was big, big difference in body fat. So then 00:27:42.190 --> 00:27:45.509 the question is why, why is there a difference? 00:27:46.190 --> 00:27:48.910 the fire service is the same we all have access 00:27:48.910 --> 00:27:51.250 to the same information i mean we everybody has 00:27:51.250 --> 00:27:53.269 a phone now we can all google whatever we have 00:27:53.269 --> 00:27:55.430 to do in order to gain weight and i mean lose 00:27:55.430 --> 00:27:57.549 fat and build muscle every what we're all trying 00:27:57.549 --> 00:28:01.430 to train for um but is it something stronger 00:28:01.430 --> 00:28:05.009 than that something that is pushing us one way 00:28:05.009 --> 00:28:09.329 or the other the simplest answer that i can give 00:28:09.329 --> 00:28:13.190 you culture here in the in southern california 00:28:13.190 --> 00:28:17.559 we we value health to a degree i can probably 00:28:17.559 --> 00:28:20.539 say we value vanity as we we live by the beach 00:28:20.539 --> 00:28:23.759 we're it's sun out all year round we have 70 00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:26.680 degree weather we're in short sleeves or tank 00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:29.500 tops the majority of our our life out here um 00:28:29.500 --> 00:28:34.099 so we've got to look good and then culture within 00:28:34.099 --> 00:28:37.799 your crew itself culture within your fire department 00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:40.960 itself all that is going to speak to what level 00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:45.349 of fitness you have and this is Maybe I have 00:28:45.349 --> 00:28:47.789 a little bit weaker data on this one. More anecdotally 00:28:47.789 --> 00:28:50.329 is when we have recruits going through a basic 00:28:50.329 --> 00:28:54.230 fire academy, either with the college or now 00:28:54.230 --> 00:28:57.490 they get hired on to a department as career firefighters. 00:28:57.670 --> 00:29:01.029 And they have, let's say, below average levels 00:29:01.029 --> 00:29:03.769 of fitness. They struggle through their academy 00:29:03.769 --> 00:29:05.529 and their towers, whether it's a short one or 00:29:05.529 --> 00:29:08.410 a longer one. But eventually, if they finish 00:29:08.410 --> 00:29:10.250 the academy, like culture is going to take over 00:29:10.250 --> 00:29:13.690 and that recruit is going to build up their fitness. 00:29:14.269 --> 00:29:15.390 They're going to lift some weights. They're going 00:29:15.390 --> 00:29:17.230 to improve their cardio. And now they're up to 00:29:17.230 --> 00:29:20.369 par. I've seen that time and time and time again. 00:29:20.609 --> 00:29:23.809 So can I chop it down to geography? Sure. But 00:29:23.809 --> 00:29:27.089 it's the culture that influences that. That's 00:29:27.089 --> 00:29:28.849 really interesting because I've made that observation 00:29:28.849 --> 00:29:31.430 many times when I've, I mean, I live, you know, 00:29:31.430 --> 00:29:33.890 not by the coast. I'm in the middle of Florida, 00:29:33.910 --> 00:29:36.130 but in a very coastal state, very narrow, you 00:29:36.130 --> 00:29:39.289 know, coast on both sides. And when you go to 00:29:39.289 --> 00:29:41.690 the more beachy towns, you just tend to see less 00:29:41.690 --> 00:29:44.309 people that are overweight. And the same in Australia 00:29:44.309 --> 00:29:46.750 when I lived and traveled over there, you know, 00:29:46.750 --> 00:29:48.829 by the, by the ocean, there's a lot of very fit 00:29:48.829 --> 00:29:50.210 people that are surfing and they're mountain 00:29:50.210 --> 00:29:52.109 biking. And then even if you look at Colorado, 00:29:52.150 --> 00:29:54.470 you know, Boulder and that area, same thing. 00:29:54.650 --> 00:29:58.049 So, you know, I talk about this a lot. We'll 00:29:58.049 --> 00:29:59.750 get into sleep in a minute, but just, you know, 00:29:59.750 --> 00:30:02.390 culturally, if there's a culture of movement. 00:30:02.940 --> 00:30:05.119 So if you, for example, are in Europe and your 00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:07.880 entire downtown is pedestrianized, even New York 00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:10.539 City, like really, if you're going to get around 00:30:10.539 --> 00:30:12.099 New York City, you've got to be somewhat fit. 00:30:12.500 --> 00:30:14.839 There's escalators, there's streets, there's 00:30:14.839 --> 00:30:16.140 all kinds of things. You're not going to be able 00:30:16.140 --> 00:30:19.180 to sit and just navigate through New York without 00:30:19.180 --> 00:30:22.440 moving. And you'd see, I would argue, less obesity 00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:26.319 even in New York City. So coming out of COVID 00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:29.049 where we had this. absolute captive audience 00:30:29.049 --> 00:30:31.430 and this ability to really move the needle on 00:30:31.430 --> 00:30:33.890 some wellness initiatives you know that should 00:30:33.890 --> 00:30:35.930 have been a massive one how do we create that 00:30:35.930 --> 00:30:38.509 culture of movement as well as obviously nutrition 00:30:38.509 --> 00:30:40.930 and it's the same with the fire department in 00:30:40.930 --> 00:30:43.329 anaheim we didn't have fitness standards but 00:30:43.329 --> 00:30:47.150 the majority of them were extremely fit and you 00:30:47.150 --> 00:30:48.910 see people working out all the time you'd see 00:30:48.910 --> 00:30:51.130 people playing sports all the time because that 00:30:51.130 --> 00:30:55.329 was just ingrained in the culture something interesting 00:30:55.329 --> 00:30:58.059 on this one that may wedge itself in here uh 00:30:58.059 --> 00:31:00.599 when we pick up a new department and i won't 00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:02.799 mention department names but when we pick them 00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:04.579 up and we do our first year testing with them 00:31:04.579 --> 00:31:08.460 and i compare their first year body composition 00:31:08.460 --> 00:31:13.359 and body or just go body fat percentage um to 00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:16.779 what it looks like a couple years after it tends 00:31:16.779 --> 00:31:19.039 to improve a little bit just within the department 00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:22.500 but nonetheless is when i compare their overall 00:31:22.500 --> 00:31:25.380 body fat percentage as a department year one 00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:28.359 to our whole that we've had the 20 something 00:31:28.359 --> 00:31:31.440 departments they're always on the fluffier side 00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:33.700 they're always a little bit more chubbier right 00:31:33.700 --> 00:31:36.680 and then we work with them for a couple years 00:31:36.680 --> 00:31:39.680 and i asked them hey how what changed and they 00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:42.460 said education what do you mean education yeah 00:31:42.460 --> 00:31:44.059 well you guys came out and you guys talked about 00:31:44.059 --> 00:31:46.500 nutrition and what we should be eating and what 00:31:46.500 --> 00:31:48.019 we shouldn't be eating and calories in versus 00:31:48.019 --> 00:31:50.619 calories out and all those different topics that 00:31:50.619 --> 00:31:53.299 we we go and bring to the fire departments and 00:31:53.299 --> 00:31:56.799 i asked those like what This information in my 00:31:56.799 --> 00:31:58.200 mind, I'm like, this information is available 00:31:58.200 --> 00:32:00.740 anywhere. It's on our phone. It's in our fingertips. 00:32:01.960 --> 00:32:04.960 But now this is my mind trying to connect dots 00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:08.960 is when there is a expert, a subject matter expert 00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:12.140 at your fire station, speaking to you as a firefighter, 00:32:12.140 --> 00:32:15.140 saying you as a career firefighter, these are 00:32:15.140 --> 00:32:18.200 your challenges. This is how to improve your 00:32:18.200 --> 00:32:22.450 nutrition. But as a result, you're going to improve 00:32:22.450 --> 00:32:24.269 your cardiovascular disease profile, your metabolic 00:32:24.269 --> 00:32:27.269 profile, and your body fat percentage. So I think 00:32:27.269 --> 00:32:30.089 it's not just education. It's education specific 00:32:30.089 --> 00:32:34.049 for the firefighter. And I think that's what 00:32:34.049 --> 00:32:39.069 led birth to my social media account is we have 00:32:39.069 --> 00:32:41.890 so much information out there for exercise, for 00:32:41.890 --> 00:32:45.289 body composition, for sleep, but it's not geared 00:32:45.289 --> 00:32:47.650 towards a firefighter. The firefighter themselves, 00:32:48.049 --> 00:32:50.930 they're a different breed. Their life is very 00:32:50.930 --> 00:32:53.089 different for me as a general population person. 00:32:53.849 --> 00:32:57.369 So although our physiology is identical, like 00:32:57.369 --> 00:32:59.630 you're going to lose weight by calories in versus 00:32:59.630 --> 00:33:03.650 calories out, me too, but how that looks as a 00:33:03.650 --> 00:33:07.109 firefighter is very different for me. So I think 00:33:07.109 --> 00:33:08.950 that's what motivated me to start this account 00:33:08.950 --> 00:33:11.210 and saying, all right, we have to do more firefighter 00:33:11.210 --> 00:33:14.329 -specific health and wellness. So the way that 00:33:14.329 --> 00:33:16.369 I like to explain it is think of Andrew Huberman, 00:33:16.410 --> 00:33:20.339 but for a firefighter. That's the goal with this 00:33:20.339 --> 00:33:23.079 account. We'll see where it goes. Absolutely. 00:33:23.339 --> 00:33:26.000 Well, I want to get to the fitness diet and standards 00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:28.460 there. But before we do, when we're talking about 00:33:28.460 --> 00:33:30.400 environment and that either setting you up for 00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:34.420 success or failure, as you started diving in, 00:33:34.599 --> 00:33:38.539 what were your aha moments as far as the impact 00:33:38.539 --> 00:33:42.180 of sleep deprivation on obesity and some of the 00:33:42.180 --> 00:33:47.140 associated impacts? So what started triggering 00:33:47.140 --> 00:33:50.299 my curiosity on this one is I kept hearing the 00:33:50.299 --> 00:33:52.380 guys say, oh, last time or last night we had 00:33:52.380 --> 00:33:54.180 two after midnight, three, four after midnight. 00:33:54.740 --> 00:33:58.539 And then what never failed was let's get a bowl 00:33:58.539 --> 00:34:00.880 of ice cream. You just hang around the table 00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:03.779 and shoot the shit, bowl of ice cream. Some guys 00:34:03.779 --> 00:34:05.920 would say they would cook a whole lunch, a whole 00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:08.099 meal, and they would enjoy whatever meal they 00:34:08.099 --> 00:34:09.599 would want at two, three, four in the morning. 00:34:10.519 --> 00:34:12.780 And in my mind, I'm just listening. I'm just 00:34:12.780 --> 00:34:15.000 listening and I'm thinking, hmm, that's probably 00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:18.880 not a very good way to keep your calories down 00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:21.780 because you're going to wake up in a couple hours 00:34:21.780 --> 00:34:23.199 and want your breakfast and then your lunch and 00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:25.679 your dinner and the whole thing. So that's what 00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:28.420 got me curious on that route. Then I started 00:34:28.420 --> 00:34:31.579 going down the research route and this is studies 00:34:31.579 --> 00:34:33.780 not done in the fire population. This is general 00:34:33.780 --> 00:34:36.179 population. And they were looking at the sleep 00:34:36.179 --> 00:34:38.980 deprived versus non -sleep deprived. And the 00:34:38.980 --> 00:34:42.130 sleep deprived group was getting equivalent to 00:34:42.130 --> 00:34:44.469 about four, four and a half hours of sleep. And 00:34:44.469 --> 00:34:48.690 when they looked at their appetite, like hormone 00:34:48.690 --> 00:34:51.289 levels, ghrelin and leptin, the group that was 00:34:51.289 --> 00:34:53.710 sleep deprived had higher amounts of ghrelin, 00:34:53.750 --> 00:34:56.429 meaning the hormone that makes you hungry compared 00:34:56.429 --> 00:35:00.570 to the well -rested group. So that now started 00:35:00.570 --> 00:35:02.489 to explain things for me saying, all right, these 00:35:02.489 --> 00:35:04.590 guys are waking up three, four times after midnight. 00:35:05.030 --> 00:35:08.519 This is adding some stress to them. We all like 00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:10.360 food when we're stressed. It's our comfort food. 00:35:10.500 --> 00:35:12.659 So maybe that explains it a little bit, but also 00:35:12.659 --> 00:35:15.760 is their bodies asking for food. They're hungry. 00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:19.880 And if you repeat that for multiple weeks, months, 00:35:19.900 --> 00:35:21.500 and years, and throughout your entire career, 00:35:21.579 --> 00:35:23.500 you're going to see your body composition, your 00:35:23.500 --> 00:35:27.519 body fat start to trend upwards. And this may 00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:29.699 get us into a different subtopic here, but I 00:35:29.699 --> 00:35:32.079 like to ask the questions to the groups is, hey, 00:35:32.099 --> 00:35:34.800 is obesity a choice in the fire service? And 00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:36.719 I always get some very good debates on this. 00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:40.420 And you have your very fit groups, and they say, 00:35:40.519 --> 00:35:44.500 absolutely, obesity is a choice. And I choose 00:35:44.500 --> 00:35:46.659 to exercise. I choose not to eat that donut. 00:35:46.739 --> 00:35:49.880 I choose, and everything's I choose. And then 00:35:49.880 --> 00:35:53.000 there's other kind of groups that get a hold 00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:55.599 of this topic, and they say, whoa, hey, man, 00:35:55.699 --> 00:35:59.619 I'm super hungry in the morning, and my body 00:35:59.619 --> 00:36:01.340 is just calling for it. And then now when they 00:36:01.340 --> 00:36:03.219 hear me talk about the ghrelin versus leptin 00:36:03.219 --> 00:36:05.320 about sleep deprivation, they say, look, it's 00:36:05.320 --> 00:36:09.239 not a choice. And I have to stay very on the 00:36:09.239 --> 00:36:10.760 middle on this one because I can't say, yeah, 00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:12.840 you're right, it's not a choice. Nor can I say, 00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:15.559 hey, you're right, it is a choice. My job is 00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:17.199 just to facilitate conversation and bring the 00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:20.980 research to them. And then it's up to them to 00:36:20.980 --> 00:36:22.599 make their own personal decisions from there. 00:36:23.500 --> 00:36:25.380 So that's always an interesting debate between 00:36:25.380 --> 00:36:29.320 the fire departments. See, it's interesting that 00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:31.800 you say that because this is what I always try 00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:34.849 and do. I talk about... you know, the importance 00:36:34.849 --> 00:36:36.809 of fitness in the fire service. And I always 00:36:36.809 --> 00:36:39.789 highlight how our work week sets us up for failure 00:36:39.789 --> 00:36:41.750 on that biologically, as we'll dive into even 00:36:41.750 --> 00:36:44.730 deeper. The question needs to be, is obesity 00:36:44.730 --> 00:36:47.969 acceptable in the fire service? And I think everyone 00:36:47.969 --> 00:36:50.769 would be united in saying no. Ultimately, take 00:36:50.769 --> 00:36:54.030 feelings out of it. Should the first responder 00:36:54.030 --> 00:36:55.889 be clinically obese or even, you know, really 00:36:55.889 --> 00:36:59.329 like vastly overweight? knowing that it's going 00:36:59.329 --> 00:37:01.130 to be detrimental to their performance, knowing 00:37:01.130 --> 00:37:02.510 that they might not be able to make it to the 00:37:02.510 --> 00:37:05.190 top of that building to get that kid or in a 00:37:05.190 --> 00:37:07.630 foot pursuit to stop the person with the knife 00:37:07.630 --> 00:37:09.150 going into the kindergarten. I mean, these are 00:37:09.150 --> 00:37:12.210 very hard black and white conversations. There 00:37:12.210 --> 00:37:13.929 is a standard for a reason because you either 00:37:13.929 --> 00:37:17.010 can or you can't. So my thing is then from a 00:37:17.010 --> 00:37:19.269 place of compassion and empathy, all right, well 00:37:19.269 --> 00:37:21.329 then what are the factors that are contributing 00:37:21.329 --> 00:37:24.670 to these first responders getting deconditioned? 00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:27.940 And how can we reverse those? So I think that's 00:37:27.940 --> 00:37:31.159 the better question. Is it acceptable? No. Is 00:37:31.159 --> 00:37:35.719 it preventable? Absolutely. That's also a tough 00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:39.559 one. You asked a thousand firefighters, should 00:37:39.559 --> 00:37:42.840 a firefighter be overweight and or obese? And 00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:44.800 there's no one that's going to tell you yes. 00:37:45.500 --> 00:37:50.440 But why does it happen? That's a tough one. There 00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:55.269 are so many different layers to this. lighter 00:37:55.269 --> 00:37:58.349 topic layers to the heavier topic ones the lighter 00:37:58.349 --> 00:38:03.210 topic one is i got hurt i tore my acl i have 00:38:03.210 --> 00:38:06.789 a knee surgery and i was actually i was physically 00:38:06.789 --> 00:38:08.789 active before and then i got surgery and it was 00:38:08.789 --> 00:38:11.309 uh six months off eight months off and then we 00:38:11.309 --> 00:38:14.949 never pick up our same levels of physical activity 00:38:14.949 --> 00:38:18.849 again so that's one the other one is life now 00:38:18.849 --> 00:38:21.190 you got married before when you were your first 00:38:21.190 --> 00:38:23.599 three years on it was the gym and the job And 00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:25.820 then now you have two, three kids under five. 00:38:25.900 --> 00:38:27.500 You have a wife, you have a husband, and you 00:38:27.500 --> 00:38:29.280 have to do all that. So all your time goes to 00:38:29.280 --> 00:38:31.639 that now. All your off -duty time goes to that 00:38:31.639 --> 00:38:34.880 now. So then there's those reasons there. And 00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:37.219 then the topics get a little heavier from there 00:38:37.219 --> 00:38:40.940 is we know that mental health is on the rise 00:38:40.940 --> 00:38:42.840 in the fire service. We know levels of anxiety, 00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:45.619 depression, PTSD are not starting to rise, but 00:38:45.619 --> 00:38:50.199 are high. And how does mental health, poor mental 00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:53.650 health, how much does that influence? physical 00:38:53.650 --> 00:38:57.829 inactivity and that's a whole rabbit hole from 00:38:57.829 --> 00:39:00.590 there is we're just not motivated and i don't 00:39:00.590 --> 00:39:02.289 want to exercise i don't feel like exercising 00:39:02.289 --> 00:39:06.170 or whatever they may be dealing with at the time 00:39:06.170 --> 00:39:09.469 and then that has more long -term consequences 00:39:09.469 --> 00:39:15.690 and then this is where i see i have to be careful 00:39:15.690 --> 00:39:17.429 how i talk about this one because this one it 00:39:17.429 --> 00:39:20.590 could go either way it's uh like the pressure 00:39:20.590 --> 00:39:23.929 of your crew It could be, hey, we're going to 00:39:23.929 --> 00:39:25.710 exercise today no matter what. We're going to 00:39:25.710 --> 00:39:28.949 get something in. That's good pressure. And then 00:39:28.949 --> 00:39:31.809 the other one is, hey, Fatty over there is going 00:39:31.809 --> 00:39:33.650 to start exercising. And then there's some of 00:39:33.650 --> 00:39:39.110 that kind of banter going on. And then it's not 00:39:39.110 --> 00:39:42.329 a very good environment to jump on the treadmill, 00:39:42.429 --> 00:39:44.409 lift some weights when my other crew member is 00:39:44.409 --> 00:39:47.070 giving me a hard time. But that's the fire service. 00:39:47.289 --> 00:39:51.909 There's a lot of banter going on. I don't want 00:39:51.909 --> 00:39:53.710 to say that's culture, but you see it a lot. 00:39:55.210 --> 00:39:58.530 So then there's a wide spectrum as to why it 00:39:58.530 --> 00:40:01.150 happens. The follow -up question is, what do 00:40:01.150 --> 00:40:02.769 you do from there? And then that's an equally 00:40:02.769 --> 00:40:06.989 complicated answer. Yeah. I would argue not complicated, 00:40:07.010 --> 00:40:09.610 just layered. But if we look at each layer, we 00:40:09.610 --> 00:40:11.989 can really pick apart some actionable items. 00:40:12.750 --> 00:40:14.849 Just before we kind of focus and really dive 00:40:14.849 --> 00:40:18.190 into sleep. sleep research in our profession 00:40:18.190 --> 00:40:22.090 specifically going back to the the sporting athletes 00:40:22.090 --> 00:40:26.150 talk to me about the importance of sleep when 00:40:26.150 --> 00:40:28.769 it comes to an elite performance in a sporting 00:40:28.769 --> 00:40:32.869 athlete there's no question about that one is 00:40:32.869 --> 00:40:37.550 you see it so let's go more let's go sports where 00:40:37.550 --> 00:40:40.030 there's a high level of consequence if you're 00:40:40.030 --> 00:40:43.019 performing correctly Meaning a high -level injury, 00:40:43.420 --> 00:40:48.079 it's like combat sports. These athletes who are 00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:50.219 in fight camp, they have a big fight coming up 00:40:50.219 --> 00:40:53.460 in eight weeks. For those that sleep less than 00:40:53.460 --> 00:40:57.280 seven hours per night, their reaction time is 00:40:57.280 --> 00:41:00.480 slower. Their output, their power output is slower. 00:41:00.659 --> 00:41:05.719 Their strength is lower. So you have these different 00:41:05.719 --> 00:41:08.840 items that their athletic performance is beginning 00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:11.760 to be compromised. Now you see it in the non 00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:14.380 -contact sports or non -combat sports. Now think 00:41:14.380 --> 00:41:20.059 more team sports. Think of soccer. You fatigue 00:41:20.059 --> 00:41:22.380 much quicker. You don't perform at the same level. 00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:26.300 Your level to put out is much lower. And this 00:41:26.300 --> 00:41:32.260 is almost a no -brainer in athletics. Now, these 00:41:32.260 --> 00:41:35.039 are people who just dedicate themselves to sport. 00:41:35.179 --> 00:41:40.630 Their job is a sport. Flip that question over 00:41:40.630 --> 00:41:42.889 to now the fire space. How important is sleep 00:41:42.889 --> 00:41:45.849 to the firefighter? And it's no longer you're 00:41:45.849 --> 00:41:49.269 going to lose a match. It's no longer you're 00:41:49.269 --> 00:41:51.670 going to have slower reaction time, although 00:41:51.670 --> 00:41:54.969 it's important. Now it's more severe consequences. 00:41:55.909 --> 00:41:59.989 And that's a whole topic from there. Well, let's 00:41:59.989 --> 00:42:02.449 stay on that for a second. The acute impact, 00:42:02.650 --> 00:42:05.889 especially on cognition. Actually, before I even 00:42:05.889 --> 00:42:10.389 pose that question. People say to me all the 00:42:10.389 --> 00:42:11.909 time, and especially, and we'll get into this 00:42:11.909 --> 00:42:14.130 later, but the work week length and the rest 00:42:14.130 --> 00:42:16.789 and recovery in between, oh, I need to see studies. 00:42:17.469 --> 00:42:20.389 And what I tell them is, well, me too. I'd love 00:42:20.389 --> 00:42:25.849 to see a telephone book thickness full of studies 00:42:25.849 --> 00:42:27.989 that are out there on sleep deprivation and shift 00:42:27.989 --> 00:42:30.789 work in the fire service. But as far as I can 00:42:30.789 --> 00:42:34.280 tell, almost none have been done. So really what 00:42:34.280 --> 00:42:36.159 we have is to flip it around. OK, well, the way 00:42:36.159 --> 00:42:38.880 that we do it now is a great, you know, million 00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:42.739 person study where we know how not to do it because 00:42:42.739 --> 00:42:45.179 our graveyards are full of the results, you know, 00:42:45.179 --> 00:42:47.119 in my opinion. And, you know, all the line of 00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:49.059 duties and the medical retirements, there's your 00:42:49.059 --> 00:42:52.199 data. But when it comes to actually show me a 00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:55.179 gamut of studies and first responders on the 00:42:55.179 --> 00:42:57.719 acuity, on the chronic disease, on mental health, 00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:00.599 there's almost nothing. From what I can see, 00:43:00.659 --> 00:43:02.780 now I'm going to put it to you. You come in, 00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:05.780 you've got this long research background. You 00:43:05.780 --> 00:43:08.400 come into our profession. I know there's studies 00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:10.239 on heart disease. I know there's studies on cancer, 00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:12.380 even though, again, none of them seem to mention 00:43:12.380 --> 00:43:18.300 sleep. How much research did you actually find 00:43:18.300 --> 00:43:21.900 on sleep deprivation and shift work in fire service 00:43:21.900 --> 00:43:26.599 specific? So there's a good amount. It's starting 00:43:26.599 --> 00:43:30.920 to grow a lot more. What you see so much is sleep 00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:33.619 deprivation in shift workers. So this is anybody 00:43:33.619 --> 00:43:35.360 who's a shift worker, your police, your nurses, 00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:38.280 your medical workers. And then you start extrapolating 00:43:38.280 --> 00:43:39.880 that over to the fire service. And then more 00:43:39.880 --> 00:43:41.360 and more research is starting to come out of 00:43:41.360 --> 00:43:43.739 sleep deprivation within the fire service. I 00:43:43.739 --> 00:43:46.880 can probably send you 10 or 20 articles at the 00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:49.420 end of this conversation on that. So it's started 00:43:49.420 --> 00:43:51.420 to grow a lot more. Let's say over the past decade 00:43:51.420 --> 00:43:54.579 and a half, you see a lot more getting published 00:43:54.579 --> 00:44:03.110 on this end. The way I explain this is these 00:44:03.110 --> 00:44:06.329 studies on sleep deprivation and the shift work, 00:44:06.349 --> 00:44:08.789 especially in the firefighter, they're very broad 00:44:08.789 --> 00:44:11.429 in nature. It's saying, hey, these who are sleep 00:44:11.429 --> 00:44:13.690 deprived, they have a higher risk of anxiety, 00:44:13.769 --> 00:44:16.170 depression, PTSD. These who are sleep deprived, 00:44:16.369 --> 00:44:19.369 they have poor levels of body composition. These 00:44:19.369 --> 00:44:21.250 who are sleep deprived, they have slower reaction 00:44:21.250 --> 00:44:24.750 time. So they're very broad in nature. It's just 00:44:24.750 --> 00:44:27.269 talking about sleep deprivation. Within the fire 00:44:27.269 --> 00:44:29.050 service, we know everybody's sleep deprived. 00:44:29.949 --> 00:44:33.409 But to go into more specifics on those, it now 00:44:33.409 --> 00:44:36.269 has to be more firefighter specific. Those who 00:44:36.269 --> 00:44:38.449 are working at busy stations versus slower stations. 00:44:39.090 --> 00:44:43.530 Those who are running 15 calls across a 24 -hour 00:44:43.530 --> 00:44:45.849 shift versus those running three calls across 00:44:45.849 --> 00:44:48.650 the 24 -hour shift. I think that's the next step 00:44:48.650 --> 00:44:50.070 that we're going to be looking at in terms of 00:44:50.070 --> 00:44:52.110 research. Because we know the firefighter in 00:44:52.110 --> 00:44:55.320 general, they have a higher risk of... poor body 00:44:55.320 --> 00:44:56.639 composition, the mental health and everything 00:44:56.639 --> 00:44:58.659 else because of the decade and a half of research 00:44:58.659 --> 00:45:02.000 we have already. The next step is starting to 00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:04.920 look at very firefighter specific worlds, busy 00:45:04.920 --> 00:45:09.139 versus non -busy stations. Those doing, those 00:45:09.139 --> 00:45:10.820 responding to two to three calls after midnight 00:45:10.820 --> 00:45:13.280 versus responding to zero versus one versus or 00:45:13.280 --> 00:45:16.360 one and zero, zero and one versus a three and 00:45:16.360 --> 00:45:18.619 a fours after midnight. I think that's the direction 00:45:18.619 --> 00:45:22.719 we're going in right now. What about 56 versus 00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:25.730 42 hour work week? How many studies have been 00:45:25.730 --> 00:45:30.250 done on that? Not that I can recall. So coming 00:45:30.250 --> 00:45:32.550 from a profession that's hundreds of years old, 00:45:32.630 --> 00:45:35.070 where the Northeast has been working that shift 00:45:35.070 --> 00:45:38.269 for decades and decades and decades, and the 00:45:38.269 --> 00:45:40.969 rest of the country is on 56, our federal brothers 00:45:40.969 --> 00:45:44.250 and sisters, 72 -hour work weeks. I find that 00:45:44.250 --> 00:45:47.630 crazy that that is just constantly swept under 00:45:47.630 --> 00:45:49.849 the rug. We don't want to study that. That is 00:45:49.849 --> 00:45:53.550 the most important study is simply setting a 00:45:53.550 --> 00:45:56.610 profession standard work week, especially when 00:45:56.610 --> 00:45:58.769 you look at, for example, law enforcement who 00:45:58.769 --> 00:46:02.969 work 40 hours a week, pilots, doctors, ER nurses, 00:46:03.190 --> 00:46:06.750 for example, 36, 40 hours a week, firefighters 00:46:06.750 --> 00:46:09.269 who are also paramedics, so they're doing two 00:46:09.269 --> 00:46:13.610 jobs simultaneously. 56 hours a week before mandatory 00:46:13.610 --> 00:46:17.590 overtime. So to me, and I'd love to just get 00:46:17.590 --> 00:46:20.150 your take on this, why haven't we done studies 00:46:20.150 --> 00:46:22.210 on arguably one of the most important issues 00:46:22.210 --> 00:46:25.449 in this profession? I think it takes somebody 00:46:25.449 --> 00:46:29.730 with a firefighter background to get into the 00:46:29.730 --> 00:46:31.630 research space to start pioneering that one. 00:46:31.949 --> 00:46:34.510 Because those who are from a non -fire space, 00:46:34.730 --> 00:46:38.159 this is not even on the radar. Until somebody 00:46:38.159 --> 00:46:41.039 who lived the life of a firefighter says, hey, 00:46:41.079 --> 00:46:45.019 this is worth looking into. So until that happens, 00:46:45.079 --> 00:46:46.860 and I'm sure it's happening now. We talked about 00:46:46.860 --> 00:46:49.199 a couple weeks ago that there's some irons in 00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:51.940 the fire with that. The closest, closest, closest 00:46:51.940 --> 00:46:56.500 thing that comes to mind is a 2016, 2017 paper 00:46:56.500 --> 00:47:01.920 in Finland. They looked at HRV cortisol response 00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:07.090 on a 24 hours on. And then 72 hours off. So one 00:47:07.090 --> 00:47:11.429 on three off. And that is the closest I can think 00:47:11.429 --> 00:47:17.030 of, of a 40 hour work week compared to a 50 something 00:47:17.030 --> 00:47:20.230 hour work week. I'm going to have to look that 00:47:20.230 --> 00:47:22.190 up because that's exactly what I think we should 00:47:22.190 --> 00:47:27.150 be doing. The 24 72. So that one, that one, it's 00:47:27.150 --> 00:47:29.190 out of Finland. The researchers, I think her 00:47:29.190 --> 00:47:32.510 name is like lidocaine, lidocaine. First name 00:47:32.510 --> 00:47:35.659 is Natalie. I can send you the paper. And that 00:47:35.659 --> 00:47:42.780 one, they had 14, 15 firefighters. And then they 00:47:42.780 --> 00:47:46.900 were split into, so it's one 24 -hour shift. 00:47:47.079 --> 00:47:49.539 12 hours of that was a firefighter responsibility. 00:47:49.860 --> 00:47:53.380 So only responding to fire suppression. The back 00:47:53.380 --> 00:47:57.139 half of that 24 -hour shift was EMS, only responding 00:47:57.139 --> 00:48:02.440 to ALS, BLS calls. So they were looking at HRV 00:48:02.440 --> 00:48:06.239 and cortisol response. On the day on, and then 00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:08.699 how those numbers changed the three days they 00:48:08.699 --> 00:48:11.820 had off. And then the second layer to that was, 00:48:12.059 --> 00:48:14.039 what if you're fit? What if you have a high VO2 00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:16.659 max? Because we know that those who have higher 00:48:16.659 --> 00:48:18.719 levels of fitness, they can recover much quicker. 00:48:19.440 --> 00:48:24.119 So if you have poor HRV response and a high cortisol 00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:26.760 response, would the fitter firefighter, would 00:48:26.760 --> 00:48:30.659 they be able to recover quicker? And this one, 00:48:30.820 --> 00:48:33.579 the result, and I'm going off of memory here. 00:48:33.929 --> 00:48:37.889 the results for hrv we also see we obviously 00:48:37.889 --> 00:48:41.110 see a depression in hrv so a very general explanation 00:48:41.110 --> 00:48:44.570 for hrv for the listeners here is hrv is a term 00:48:44.570 --> 00:48:47.530 that measures the time between every individual 00:48:47.530 --> 00:48:50.349 heartbeat so if we have a 60 beat per minute 00:48:50.349 --> 00:48:52.710 heart rate does that mean our heart is beating 00:48:52.710 --> 00:48:56.389 every second on the second like a metronome and 00:48:56.389 --> 00:48:58.590 the reality it's not some beats are a little 00:48:58.590 --> 00:49:01.550 bit closer together while other beats are a little 00:49:01.550 --> 00:49:04.260 further apart and that variability between our 00:49:04.260 --> 00:49:06.699 heartbeats that tells us so much about how well 00:49:06.699 --> 00:49:08.940 recovered we are how stressed we are and all 00:49:08.940 --> 00:49:12.000 that different stuff in there so generally speaking 00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:14.699 not always but generally speaking a higher hrv 00:49:14.699 --> 00:49:18.019 is desirable it means you're more recovered so 00:49:18.019 --> 00:49:21.500 for these firefighters who were on during the 00:49:21.500 --> 00:49:25.079 first day on or 24 on their hrv plunges and that's 00:49:25.079 --> 00:49:28.000 expected and then from there on is how long does 00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:31.079 it take for them to get back to baseline so first 00:49:31.079 --> 00:49:35.730 day on No real meaningful recovery. Second day 00:49:35.730 --> 00:49:37.730 on, now you're getting some meaningful recovery. 00:49:38.250 --> 00:49:42.750 I mean, first day on, your HRV plunges. First 00:49:42.750 --> 00:49:46.269 day off, no meaningful recovery. Second day off, 00:49:46.409 --> 00:49:49.369 now we're getting some meaningful recovery. Third 00:49:49.369 --> 00:49:52.469 day off, that's where HRV is back down to baselines 00:49:52.469 --> 00:49:56.969 or back up to baselines. So that's from a HRV 00:49:56.969 --> 00:50:00.030 perspective. From a cortisol perspective was 00:50:00.030 --> 00:50:03.489 cortisol. It's higher in the mornings. As we 00:50:03.489 --> 00:50:05.050 all know, it's what wakes us up in the morning. 00:50:05.090 --> 00:50:06.969 It's what gives us that kick to get things going. 00:50:08.010 --> 00:50:12.829 And the first day off from their 24 -hour shift, 00:50:13.030 --> 00:50:15.690 that cortisol response is blunted. It's suppressed. 00:50:16.570 --> 00:50:20.769 So it just tells us how demanding, how stressful 00:50:20.769 --> 00:50:24.969 just being on the job is. And in this paper, 00:50:24.989 --> 00:50:26.829 they said they responded to one fire during their 00:50:26.829 --> 00:50:29.050 24 -hour shift or during their 12 -hour shift. 00:50:29.289 --> 00:50:32.110 And then it was like... five or seven different 00:50:32.110 --> 00:50:35.469 EMS responses from there. So they don't talk 00:50:35.469 --> 00:50:38.309 to the level of intensity of the response of 00:50:38.309 --> 00:50:40.429 the calls while they were on. They just give 00:50:40.429 --> 00:50:42.030 an absolute number. They said they responded 00:50:42.030 --> 00:50:45.130 to one fire call and X amount of EMS calls. And 00:50:45.130 --> 00:50:47.369 then from there, they look at the cortisol response 00:50:47.369 --> 00:50:51.250 on day one off and it's blunted as it's very 00:50:51.250 --> 00:50:53.269 similar to what you see on the first day on, 00:50:53.289 --> 00:50:57.050 on their 24 on. Their second day, they start 00:50:57.050 --> 00:51:00.679 getting more of a normal cortisol response. It 00:51:00.679 --> 00:51:03.579 doesn't get back into a normal cortisol response, 00:51:03.840 --> 00:51:07.219 what they call cortisol awakening response, the 00:51:07.219 --> 00:51:11.500 AR, until that third day. So if there's some 00:51:11.500 --> 00:51:14.980 data you need, that's where that's at. The limitations 00:51:14.980 --> 00:51:17.719 to that one, it's a 14 -subject participant and 00:51:17.719 --> 00:51:21.480 it's voluntary participation. So everybody who's 00:51:21.480 --> 00:51:23.059 going to volunteer for research studies, especially 00:51:23.059 --> 00:51:24.260 like this, they're going to be your healthier 00:51:24.260 --> 00:51:27.340 population. But that also adds some strength 00:51:27.340 --> 00:51:30.039 to your argument saying, if my healthy firefighters 00:51:30.039 --> 00:51:32.679 are responding like this how are my unhealthy 00:51:32.679 --> 00:51:35.800 firefighters responding so then they put the 00:51:35.800 --> 00:51:39.400 layer of vo2 max in there is does vo2 max the 00:51:39.400 --> 00:51:43.139 fitter the healthier i am do i recover quicker 00:51:43.139 --> 00:51:46.820 and unfortunately the answer was no these individuals 00:51:46.820 --> 00:51:48.659 with high levels of vo2 max it was like in the 00:51:48.659 --> 00:51:50.960 50s it was low 50s for their vo2 which is high 00:51:50.960 --> 00:51:55.340 they didn't influence their level of recovery 00:51:55.340 --> 00:51:58.239 at all The limitation to this is they're not 00:51:58.239 --> 00:52:03.539 looking at their off -duty life. So they didn't 00:52:03.539 --> 00:52:05.219 write down if they're consuming any alcohol, 00:52:05.380 --> 00:52:07.260 if they were taking naps during off -duty, if 00:52:07.260 --> 00:52:09.500 they were exercising off -duty. So all that is 00:52:09.500 --> 00:52:12.940 up for you to guess. So that's the result of 00:52:12.940 --> 00:52:15.579 that one there. I can send you that paper. Yeah, 00:52:15.579 --> 00:52:16.860 that'd be amazing. I think that was what you 00:52:16.860 --> 00:52:18.860 summarized in one of the graphics and that was 00:52:18.860 --> 00:52:22.039 hugely well received. But this is the point. 00:52:22.099 --> 00:52:23.599 And it's interesting because I had someone reach 00:52:23.599 --> 00:52:25.929 out the other day and they said, They're, I think, 00:52:25.929 --> 00:52:27.530 in the Northeast as well. I might have that wrong. 00:52:27.690 --> 00:52:33.010 But they do 24 on, 24 off. Sorry, 24 on, then 00:52:33.010 --> 00:52:35.570 120 off. And it's interesting because we say 00:52:35.570 --> 00:52:38.650 about days off. It's not day off because, for 00:52:38.650 --> 00:52:41.750 example, 24 on, that second day, you've worked 00:52:41.750 --> 00:52:43.829 from midnight to 8. So that second day isn't 00:52:43.829 --> 00:52:45.409 even a day off anyway. You've just did eight 00:52:45.409 --> 00:52:49.289 hours. And they said it's a 42 -hour work week. 00:52:49.409 --> 00:52:51.389 What do you think? And I said, well, the fact 00:52:51.389 --> 00:52:53.340 that you're doing a 42 -hour work week. Compared 00:52:53.340 --> 00:52:57.380 to a 56, you're winning. However, the 24 .72 00:52:57.380 --> 00:53:00.460 to me is still the absolute standard because 00:53:00.460 --> 00:53:03.360 just like you've illustrated, we need that 72 00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:05.659 -hour period to try and get as close to baseline 00:53:05.659 --> 00:53:09.050 before we go back again. I know some people want 00:53:09.050 --> 00:53:12.590 that kind of larger number of days on the back 00:53:12.590 --> 00:53:14.630 end, but I think it's detrimental and you're 00:53:14.630 --> 00:53:17.449 going to slowly get chipped away with that 24 00:53:17.449 --> 00:53:20.570 on, 24 off, 24 on. So it's interesting with that. 00:53:20.650 --> 00:53:22.929 But then when you put it, like you said, to the 00:53:22.929 --> 00:53:25.949 24, 48 or God forbid the 48, 96, and we'll dive 00:53:25.949 --> 00:53:27.750 into that in a minute, the lunacy behind that. 00:53:28.349 --> 00:53:33.190 But you think about 48 hours without even a rest 00:53:33.190 --> 00:53:35.050 day, and then you start trying to climb your 00:53:35.050 --> 00:53:38.380 way out of that hole. Or a 24 -48 with a mandatory 00:53:38.380 --> 00:53:40.980 overtime. Now it's a 48 with only 24 hours. And 00:53:40.980 --> 00:53:43.820 now you're back on again the fourth day. There's 00:53:43.820 --> 00:53:46.179 some beautiful data to show. And FSU is going 00:53:46.179 --> 00:53:48.800 to, I'm sure, show this with the studies they're 00:53:48.800 --> 00:53:51.039 doing with Gainesville. You know, there is science 00:53:51.039 --> 00:53:53.820 now. And then, like I said. I don't think it 00:53:53.820 --> 00:53:56.380 needs to even be proven. 42 hours healthier than 00:53:56.380 --> 00:53:58.320 56. I think there's a lot of common sense to 00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:01.039 that. But it's great to see some of these studies 00:54:01.039 --> 00:54:03.900 and just line it up side by side. It's kind of 00:54:03.900 --> 00:54:06.159 like I told you so, but at least now we've got 00:54:06.159 --> 00:54:08.579 data so that when people say to me, oh, I need 00:54:08.579 --> 00:54:11.840 the studies, it's like, do you? Well, despite 00:54:11.840 --> 00:54:14.039 the fact that you really don't hear some studies 00:54:14.039 --> 00:54:17.139 anyway, it just proves up the common sense that, 00:54:17.159 --> 00:54:20.300 yes, our first responders need enough rest and 00:54:20.300 --> 00:54:22.960 recovery between each shift. so they can operate 00:54:22.960 --> 00:54:26.300 at the highest level of acuity and prevent the 00:54:26.300 --> 00:54:30.119 long -term chronic diseases that we see. Yeah, 00:54:30.219 --> 00:54:32.559 from a logical perspective, I think you have 00:54:32.559 --> 00:54:34.699 a really good point on this one. I think what 00:54:34.699 --> 00:54:38.380 makes, I think why people are asking, let me 00:54:38.380 --> 00:54:41.280 see the data on it, because the data, especially 00:54:41.280 --> 00:54:44.079 the peer -reviewed stuff, it tries its best to 00:54:44.079 --> 00:54:46.320 remove bias. Research is always going to have 00:54:46.320 --> 00:54:48.619 bias to it, but at least it's trying its best. 00:54:48.780 --> 00:54:50.760 So it's no longer the members of the department 00:54:50.760 --> 00:54:53.519 saying, hey, let's switch from this shift schedule 00:54:53.519 --> 00:54:57.000 to that one because they obviously have a dog 00:54:57.000 --> 00:54:59.099 in that fight but if they say here's this independently 00:54:59.099 --> 00:55:02.260 conducted peer -reviewed research study that 00:55:02.260 --> 00:55:05.980 shows this is better than that then that makes 00:55:05.980 --> 00:55:09.260 the argument much much stronger now whoever is 00:55:09.260 --> 00:55:12.780 the shot callers on this the argument of they're 00:55:12.780 --> 00:55:16.260 just saying that because enter excuse here now 00:55:16.260 --> 00:55:19.260 it's what's your excuse now that we have this 00:55:19.260 --> 00:55:22.079 peer reviewed and we address as many limitations 00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:23.699 as we can there's still going to be a bunch but 00:55:23.699 --> 00:55:26.800 nonetheless i think that's why asking for data 00:55:26.800 --> 00:55:30.719 is so um so common and i think it obviously gives 00:55:30.719 --> 00:55:34.460 you a stronger argument yeah yeah it's interesting 00:55:34.460 --> 00:55:36.199 like when we talk before we hit record where 00:55:36.199 --> 00:55:37.739 i've seen a lot of people ask for data is they 00:55:37.739 --> 00:55:39.860 just want to put another hurdle so they don't 00:55:39.860 --> 00:55:41.920 have to do the work to move the needle not i'm 00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:44.340 not all people but there are certainly a lot 00:55:44.340 --> 00:55:46.159 of people because if i just don't have the data 00:55:46.159 --> 00:55:48.300 i can say well there's no data but as we just 00:55:48.300 --> 00:55:51.579 touched on there's no studies so my men and women 00:55:51.579 --> 00:55:54.360 are still dying by the droves i'm not willing 00:55:54.360 --> 00:55:56.219 to wait for someone to finally start doing a 00:55:56.219 --> 00:55:58.579 study so let's go back to the common sense and 00:55:58.579 --> 00:56:01.539 then as you've done pull studies from you know 00:56:01.539 --> 00:56:05.199 parallel professions and and areas where we can 00:56:05.199 --> 00:56:07.159 apply it and go look this this backs up what 00:56:07.159 --> 00:56:09.639 we're saying but it's interesting you say about 00:56:09.639 --> 00:56:12.940 leaning into a study on its own are you familiar 00:56:12.940 --> 00:56:18.300 with joel billings's study on the 4896 i'm familiar 00:56:18.300 --> 00:56:20.480 with some of the studies in the 4896 which are 00:56:20.480 --> 00:56:23.440 referring to okay so this one is i mean i had 00:56:23.440 --> 00:56:26.199 joel on the show and i'm always you know this 00:56:26.199 --> 00:56:28.340 is where as they say a little knowledge is a 00:56:28.340 --> 00:56:31.539 dangerous thing I didn't realize the explosion 00:56:31.539 --> 00:56:34.500 of leaning into the 4896. And I had Joel on the 00:56:34.500 --> 00:56:37.679 show just a few months ago. The one I'm talking 00:56:37.679 --> 00:56:39.920 about, I don't know which of his, but he studied 00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:43.239 a department. They did, I think, again, it was, 00:56:43.239 --> 00:56:45.199 I don't know if it was HRV, but it was certainly 00:56:45.199 --> 00:56:47.699 cortisol, if I'm not mistaken. And it was a department 00:56:47.699 --> 00:56:52.420 that was going from a 2448 to a 4896. The results 00:56:52.420 --> 00:56:55.219 come out. He finds that on the second 24 hours 00:56:55.219 --> 00:56:57.900 of the 48, they seem a little bit more rested. 00:56:58.460 --> 00:57:02.579 And therefore, it's a better shift. Now, no fault 00:57:02.579 --> 00:57:04.579 of Joel's at all. He just did a study. And in 00:57:04.579 --> 00:57:06.320 the paper, it shows exactly what was done and 00:57:06.320 --> 00:57:08.840 the parameters and all these things. But the 00:57:08.840 --> 00:57:11.400 fire service, I believe, ran with that. Now, 00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:14.719 Joel, as he described on the show, said, well, 00:57:14.800 --> 00:57:18.099 the department we studied ran about one call 00:57:18.099 --> 00:57:22.139 a shift and less than one call at night. So zero 00:57:22.139 --> 00:57:25.329 calls at night many times. And you've got all 00:57:25.329 --> 00:57:27.349 these urban and suburban departments that have 00:57:27.349 --> 00:57:30.610 now gone to a 4896 because science says it's 00:57:30.610 --> 00:57:33.730 better. Now, what was interesting in the conversation 00:57:33.730 --> 00:57:37.530 with Joel is that one takeaway where you found 00:57:37.530 --> 00:57:40.789 it was better was because so many of us get up 00:57:40.789 --> 00:57:43.849 at like 435 in the morning to drive 70 miles 00:57:43.849 --> 00:57:45.610 because we can't afford to live in the city we 00:57:45.610 --> 00:57:48.570 work to then start our shift. So there's a lot 00:57:48.570 --> 00:57:52.099 of sleep deprivation on day one. If you actually 00:57:52.099 --> 00:57:54.460 shift the start time and bearing in mind, we 00:57:54.460 --> 00:57:57.260 work 24 hours, you know, you can turn that clock 00:57:57.260 --> 00:58:01.480 any way you want to like 11 a .m., 12 noon. You 00:58:01.480 --> 00:58:04.820 now create another, you know, well, a good sleep 00:58:04.820 --> 00:58:07.320 the night before that shift. So you take that 00:58:07.320 --> 00:58:10.179 one positive from that study and you can apply 00:58:10.179 --> 00:58:14.699 it to a 2472. But the little knowledge is a dangerous 00:58:14.699 --> 00:58:16.880 thing and it breaks my heart. The number of departments 00:58:16.880 --> 00:58:21.409 I see bragging about having a 4896. Based on 00:58:21.409 --> 00:58:23.190 the science that we've already started kind of 00:58:23.190 --> 00:58:27.369 dipping into a bit, what is your perception on 00:58:27.369 --> 00:58:33.070 48 hours sleepless or interrupted sleep for a 00:58:33.070 --> 00:58:36.190 first responder with, as you said, so many elements 00:58:36.190 --> 00:58:42.849 of life -saving skills in their hands? So I guess 00:58:42.849 --> 00:58:45.150 I'll take this from a very high scope and then 00:58:45.150 --> 00:58:46.829 start narrowing down to answer that question. 00:58:47.369 --> 00:58:50.769 A Billings paper. I don't know when this got 00:58:50.769 --> 00:58:53.409 published. Let's say late 2010, somewhere in 00:58:53.409 --> 00:58:57.190 that time. He was comparing the difference in 00:58:57.190 --> 00:59:01.010 sleep quality, comparing the 24 -48, 48 -96, 00:59:01.190 --> 00:59:03.409 and then the Kelly schedule. And then the Kelly 00:59:03.409 --> 00:59:06.829 was defined as 24 on, 24 off, 24 on, 24 off. 00:59:06.949 --> 00:59:09.750 And then I think it was threes and sixes or fours 00:59:09.750 --> 00:59:11.289 and sixes. I don't know what the actual Kelly 00:59:11.289 --> 00:59:14.610 was. Four and six, usually. As I've learned, 00:59:14.650 --> 00:59:16.150 there's a bunch of different derivatives of the 00:59:16.150 --> 00:59:23.000 Kelly. But then they use different forms to assess 00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:25.639 sleep quality. One of them was called the Pittsburgh 00:59:25.639 --> 00:59:27.920 Sleep Quality Index, which is subjective. It's 00:59:27.920 --> 00:59:29.219 like 30 different questions, and then you're 00:59:29.219 --> 00:59:32.599 answering how well you sleep. And it's asking 00:59:32.599 --> 00:59:34.880 you to reflect on the past 30 days. So that was 00:59:34.880 --> 00:59:36.699 method number one. Method number two is something 00:59:36.699 --> 00:59:39.099 called an emergency service sleep diary. So it's 00:59:39.099 --> 00:59:40.659 asking you to reflect, how did you sleep last 00:59:40.659 --> 00:59:43.440 night? So now you only have to recall just one 00:59:43.440 --> 00:59:45.929 night. And then the third one was what they call 00:59:45.929 --> 00:59:49.469 actigraphy. So it's a risk monitor, and it tries 00:59:49.469 --> 00:59:51.389 to estimate when you're sleeping based on movement. 00:59:52.869 --> 00:59:56.210 And what they found here, when it comes to the 00:59:56.210 --> 00:59:59.809 Pittsburgh Sleep Quality, or the PSQI, the worst 00:59:59.809 --> 01:00:06.849 one, Kelly. The best one, 2448. And the one right 01:00:06.849 --> 01:00:11.730 in the middle, 4896. And then they just start 01:00:11.730 --> 01:00:13.409 trying to... figure out why. So this is no longer 01:00:13.409 --> 01:00:15.130 the research study anymore. The research just 01:00:15.130 --> 01:00:18.829 said the Kelly is the worst, the 2496, 2448 is 01:00:18.829 --> 01:00:20.449 the best, and the 4096 somewhere in between. 01:00:21.090 --> 01:00:22.650 You start trying to figure out, well, okay, well, 01:00:22.670 --> 01:00:27.590 why? Why is the Kelly the worst? Why is the 2448 01:00:27.590 --> 01:00:31.809 the best one? For the Kelly one, I think you've 01:00:31.809 --> 01:00:34.690 already answered it, is you have to be at the 01:00:34.690 --> 01:00:37.389 station at, what is it, 7 a .m.? And if you've 01:00:37.389 --> 01:00:38.969 got to drive an hour and a half or two hours, 01:00:39.269 --> 01:00:42.159 you're... You're waking up pretty dang early 01:00:42.159 --> 01:00:46.260 that night or that morning to get to work. So 01:00:46.260 --> 01:00:48.139 you're cutting your sleep in half already. So 01:00:48.139 --> 01:00:50.539 that's your last day off. You're already starting 01:00:50.539 --> 01:00:54.480 with a shorter sleep window. And then you get 01:00:54.480 --> 01:00:56.420 off the next morning. You got to go do that two 01:00:56.420 --> 01:00:59.840 -hour drive again and hoping to recover that 01:00:59.840 --> 01:01:01.900 day before you're coming back on to shift the 01:01:01.900 --> 01:01:04.860 next day. So that's the Kelly one on that one. 01:01:04.960 --> 01:01:07.760 And then the other one, the 2448 is the 496. 01:01:08.750 --> 01:01:12.090 If you now start merging the findings from two 01:01:12.090 --> 01:01:14.070 different papers together, there's billing ones 01:01:14.070 --> 01:01:15.949 that we're talking about and the other one that 01:01:15.949 --> 01:01:17.769 we just mentioned, the one about the Finland 01:01:17.769 --> 01:01:20.750 firefighters. So that one was saying for every 01:01:20.750 --> 01:01:23.130 one day off, you need roughly about two days 01:01:23.130 --> 01:01:25.710 off. Well, every one day on, you need roughly 01:01:25.710 --> 01:01:28.409 about two days off. So then you look at that 01:01:28.409 --> 01:01:32.789 24 -48, they were on for one day, two days off, 01:01:32.969 --> 01:01:36.130 and you were having somewhat back to baseline 01:01:36.130 --> 01:01:38.809 in terms of your cortisone HRV response. So you 01:01:38.809 --> 01:01:40.469 can start to understand that a little bit more. 01:01:40.570 --> 01:01:46.409 But now 48 hours on or 96 off, it's more that 01:01:46.409 --> 01:01:48.969 still that one to two ratio that you start going 01:01:48.969 --> 01:01:53.010 on right there. But then how much more is your 01:01:53.010 --> 01:01:56.949 recovery or is your stress levels kind of worsened 01:01:56.949 --> 01:02:00.670 on that second 24 hour shift? That's a question 01:02:00.670 --> 01:02:02.329 worth asking. I don't think I have any data that 01:02:02.329 --> 01:02:04.690 I can recall on that one. So having multiple 01:02:04.690 --> 01:02:08.960 days on. Is it that much harder to recover? That 01:02:08.960 --> 01:02:11.780 one I can shrug my shoulders to and saying, I 01:02:11.780 --> 01:02:14.360 can't speak from any one personal experience 01:02:14.360 --> 01:02:17.840 nor scientific data that I come across. So you 01:02:17.840 --> 01:02:20.380 can speak on that one as to why the 4896 is the 01:02:20.380 --> 01:02:23.300 worst one. But when I asked the fire guys that 01:02:23.300 --> 01:02:26.019 we work with, they much rather be on the 4896 01:02:26.019 --> 01:02:28.119 than the Kelly. Like we have a few departments 01:02:28.119 --> 01:02:29.920 that have shifted from Kelly to 48 recently. 01:02:30.219 --> 01:02:32.320 And I asked them, how's their experiences? And 01:02:32.320 --> 01:02:37.559 across the board, they say it's better. Yeah, 01:02:37.659 --> 01:02:39.840 and I lost a train of thought. What was the question 01:02:39.840 --> 01:02:42.340 you asked at the very beginning? No, no, it was 01:02:42.340 --> 01:02:44.320 really that. I mean, you gave us a great explanation. 01:02:44.440 --> 01:02:48.260 What I would say with the danger of the 48 is, 01:02:48.500 --> 01:02:51.739 as you touched on, the Swedish model shows that 01:02:51.739 --> 01:02:55.500 the 24 hours after you get off shift, so that 01:02:55.500 --> 01:02:57.599 first, I'm not going to say a day off, that off 01:02:57.599 --> 01:03:01.739 -going day, there's no recovery. The 24 hour 01:03:01.739 --> 01:03:05.280 number two, there's some recovery, 24 hour three. 01:03:05.500 --> 01:03:08.119 Now you're actually getting to where you're recovered, 01:03:08.300 --> 01:03:11.280 ready to actually do another shift. With a 48, 01:03:11.559 --> 01:03:14.380 you've got zero. You've now compounded. So, you 01:03:14.380 --> 01:03:15.840 know, obviously there's going to be even more 01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:18.920 decay on all the things. And then now, you know, 01:03:18.940 --> 01:03:21.159 now you're finally clambering your way up. So 01:03:21.159 --> 01:03:23.320 for me, what really terrifies me is not only 01:03:23.320 --> 01:03:25.739 again, you know, the chronic disease side and 01:03:25.739 --> 01:03:27.579 the mental health side and all the other things 01:03:27.579 --> 01:03:30.420 that we'll dive into in a minute. But the acuity, 01:03:30.599 --> 01:03:33.559 there's a study, there's a number now that's 01:03:33.559 --> 01:03:35.320 thrown out a lot. Kirk Parsley was the first 01:03:35.320 --> 01:03:38.780 one that made me aware of it. But 24 hours without 01:03:38.780 --> 01:03:40.960 sleep is like having a blood alcohol of 0 .1. 01:03:41.619 --> 01:03:44.159 Well, I always say, well, that's probably done 01:03:44.159 --> 01:03:46.860 with a bunch of college students as the study 01:03:46.860 --> 01:03:49.500 recipients who arguably probably spent most of 01:03:49.500 --> 01:03:51.719 their life up to that point sleeping every night, 01:03:51.780 --> 01:03:54.940 apart from partying here and there. They go in, 01:03:54.960 --> 01:03:57.280 they do a sleep study. 24 hours, they do some 01:03:57.280 --> 01:03:59.400 cognitive tests. Oh, this is how decayed you 01:03:59.400 --> 01:04:03.960 are. Well, now double that and multiply it by 01:04:03.960 --> 01:04:07.980 10, 15, 20 years of service. At what level of 01:04:07.980 --> 01:04:10.519 acuity have you dropped to by the time you get 01:04:10.519 --> 01:04:14.480 to that 36 hour mark of a 48 hour? So now as 01:04:14.480 --> 01:04:18.199 a responsibility, as a professional, how dangerous 01:04:18.199 --> 01:04:20.280 is it having you behind the wheel of an emergency 01:04:20.280 --> 01:04:23.719 vehicle? How dangerous is it having you figuring 01:04:23.719 --> 01:04:26.320 out pediatric drug doses or trying to intubate? 01:04:26.500 --> 01:04:29.579 You know, this is the thing is no other industry, 01:04:29.679 --> 01:04:32.960 no airline, no shipping agency, no nuclear power 01:04:32.960 --> 01:04:35.800 plant would let someone be awake, potentially 01:04:35.800 --> 01:04:39.780 awake for 48 hours straight. Yet our profession 01:04:39.780 --> 01:04:42.900 just turns their head. And to me, the science 01:04:42.900 --> 01:04:46.039 says 24 hours is pushing it. And I've got no 01:04:46.039 --> 01:04:48.559 problem with 24 hour shifts. I think for a jack 01:04:48.559 --> 01:04:51.800 of all trades that we are. With a house that's 01:04:51.800 --> 01:04:54.699 got beds in it, we can make that work. But anything 01:04:54.699 --> 01:04:57.679 past that, I think it's irresponsible and I think 01:04:57.679 --> 01:05:01.340 it's dangerous. A lot of thoughts on this one. 01:05:03.900 --> 01:05:06.179 There's a research group out of, I think it's 01:05:06.179 --> 01:05:09.420 Harvard Medical. The lead author is Barger. I 01:05:09.420 --> 01:05:12.400 don't know her first name, but she published 01:05:12.400 --> 01:05:14.739 exactly what you're talking about. It's those 01:05:14.739 --> 01:05:16.340 who are sleep deprived, firefighters who are 01:05:16.340 --> 01:05:20.329 sleep deprived. what is their risk or their rate 01:05:20.329 --> 01:05:24.230 of traffic collisions, car accidents? And it 01:05:24.230 --> 01:05:26.949 was much higher. That one's a no -brainer. But 01:05:26.949 --> 01:05:29.989 now there's data on that one. And they go down 01:05:29.989 --> 01:05:32.610 different rabbit holes from there. Let's do sleep 01:05:32.610 --> 01:05:34.409 health programs, sleep education programs for 01:05:34.409 --> 01:05:35.989 firefighters, and then there's a bunch of different 01:05:35.989 --> 01:05:39.409 follow -up studies to those. There is a company, 01:05:39.489 --> 01:05:42.110 I think it's out of Australia, that is more like 01:05:42.110 --> 01:05:47.309 virtual reality firefighter training. And now 01:05:47.309 --> 01:05:49.869 they have like these VR goggles and they can 01:05:49.869 --> 01:05:52.630 light buildings on fire and then they go through 01:05:52.630 --> 01:05:55.030 whatever training from there. A research group 01:05:55.030 --> 01:05:57.849 got hold of this idea and they said, hey, this 01:05:57.849 --> 01:06:00.489 is really cool. Do you mind if we do some studies 01:06:00.489 --> 01:06:02.590 on your guys' product with your guys' firefighters? 01:06:02.869 --> 01:06:05.769 Sure. I think this is a white paper too. I don't 01:06:05.769 --> 01:06:09.590 think it's got published. And they were now looking 01:06:09.590 --> 01:06:12.050 at sleep deprived versus non -sleep deprived 01:06:12.050 --> 01:06:15.480 and then reaction time. How quickly was the firefighter 01:06:15.480 --> 01:06:18.260 making a decision when it came to their fire 01:06:18.260 --> 01:06:20.940 suppression duties? And they were tracking that. 01:06:21.400 --> 01:06:23.860 Then now more specifically, what was the quality 01:06:23.860 --> 01:06:27.840 of that decision? When those who were speaking 01:06:27.840 --> 01:06:31.059 prior, they were making less or they were making 01:06:31.059 --> 01:06:32.619 more or less quality decisions, lower quality 01:06:32.619 --> 01:06:35.300 decisions compared to what somebody else would 01:06:35.300 --> 01:06:38.039 do, let's say a captain or an actual firefighter. 01:06:39.070 --> 01:06:40.710 The captain calling the shots, the firefighter 01:06:40.710 --> 01:06:44.869 doing what they're supposed to do. The quality 01:06:44.869 --> 01:06:46.769 of the decisions were much greater when they 01:06:46.769 --> 01:06:52.090 were well -rested. I read this maybe four years 01:06:52.090 --> 01:06:54.349 ago or so, and I tried to look for the actual 01:06:54.349 --> 01:06:57.670 published version. I couldn't find it. I'm assuming 01:06:57.670 --> 01:07:01.340 it's a white paper from this VR company. Now 01:07:01.340 --> 01:07:03.300 is if you start looking at what are the actual 01:07:03.300 --> 01:07:05.519 effects of state deprivation on the firefighter 01:07:05.519 --> 01:07:08.119 from an occupational performance, from occupational 01:07:08.119 --> 01:07:10.960 standpoint. And then one, we can summarize higher 01:07:10.960 --> 01:07:13.320 rates of traffic collisions, just car accidents. 01:07:13.679 --> 01:07:16.699 And then two, less quality decision -making, 01:07:16.760 --> 01:07:19.780 slower reaction time. That stuff there's data 01:07:19.780 --> 01:07:24.800 on. So that one's strong. I think when we apply 01:07:24.800 --> 01:07:26.820 it to law enforcement, I think it's incredibly 01:07:26.820 --> 01:07:29.809 powerful. If you look at... the mistakes that 01:07:29.809 --> 01:07:32.289 were made in those gray areas not the ones that 01:07:32.289 --> 01:07:34.610 it was a good shoot you know or the ones that 01:07:34.610 --> 01:07:37.550 were completely you know horrendous and it was 01:07:37.550 --> 01:07:39.869 the officer that was a thousand percent at risk 01:07:39.869 --> 01:07:42.849 or excuse me at fault but those gray area ones 01:07:42.849 --> 01:07:45.230 you know the kid suddenly reaches for the glove 01:07:45.230 --> 01:07:47.429 box he's actually getting his his driving license 01:07:47.429 --> 01:07:50.050 because he's scared and the officer who just 01:07:50.050 --> 01:07:52.869 lost you know a fellow officer last week and 01:07:52.869 --> 01:07:55.030 has been forced into an extra shift and he hasn't 01:07:55.030 --> 01:07:58.630 slept or she hasn't slept for however many hours 01:07:58.630 --> 01:08:02.210 or days, whatever it's been, where is that conversation 01:08:02.210 --> 01:08:05.329 in law enforcement? And we're talking about all 01:08:05.329 --> 01:08:07.489 the wrecks that they have, for example. And you 01:08:07.489 --> 01:08:10.030 listen to people talking about, I had a guest 01:08:10.030 --> 01:08:12.250 on speaking about a lot of the first responder 01:08:12.250 --> 01:08:15.670 accidents that they've processed. And they said 01:08:15.670 --> 01:08:18.229 it was interesting. There's one thing that's 01:08:18.229 --> 01:08:20.569 absent in a lot of these wrecks with police, 01:08:20.590 --> 01:08:23.670 fire, and EMS that you don't see usually with 01:08:23.670 --> 01:08:27.649 other people. He said skid marks. because you 01:08:27.649 --> 01:08:29.710 know normally a person realizes and they slam 01:08:29.710 --> 01:08:31.470 on their brakes but you get these first responders 01:08:31.470 --> 01:08:34.229 having these micro sleeps behind the wheel and 01:08:34.229 --> 01:08:36.770 they just barrel straight into them and then 01:08:36.770 --> 01:08:40.510 even though for me you should have the altruism 01:08:40.510 --> 01:08:42.529 and compassion to want to make your people as 01:08:42.529 --> 01:08:45.670 healthy as possible sadly that's not the case 01:08:45.670 --> 01:08:47.649 in the fire service many times so now you've 01:08:47.649 --> 01:08:50.750 got to show them dollars and cents how much money 01:08:50.750 --> 01:08:55.180 is spent on lawsuits from when we hit vehicles 01:08:55.180 --> 01:08:57.260 when we push the wrong drugs or we're too aggressive 01:08:57.260 --> 01:08:59.779 with the patient, you know, whatever it is. So 01:08:59.779 --> 01:09:02.899 there is a huge money savings from this point 01:09:02.899 --> 01:09:04.739 of view as well, when it comes to giving them 01:09:04.739 --> 01:09:06.960 more rest and recovery and getting a fourth shift, 01:09:07.020 --> 01:09:09.600 because now you're going to, as you said, as 01:09:09.600 --> 01:09:12.220 a linear correlation between sleep deprivation 01:09:12.220 --> 01:09:15.500 and poor judgment, imagine the dollar amount 01:09:15.500 --> 01:09:18.239 that you could prevent paying and, you know, 01:09:18.260 --> 01:09:20.199 obviously more importantly, not hurting the general 01:09:20.199 --> 01:09:23.369 public. There was maybe a study, maybe a decade 01:09:23.369 --> 01:09:25.569 now when they put a dollar amount to how much 01:09:25.569 --> 01:09:29.029 does it cost when a firefighter is off on duty? 01:09:29.130 --> 01:09:32.069 I mean, off on disability, off on injury. And 01:09:32.069 --> 01:09:34.989 the number is, I don't know, exponential. It 01:09:34.989 --> 01:09:37.189 was, I'm going to make up an arbitrary number, 01:09:37.310 --> 01:09:40.109 $150 ,000 or $200 ,000, whatever the number was. 01:09:40.189 --> 01:09:43.430 I can send you that paper too. And then they 01:09:43.430 --> 01:09:47.029 compare it to, let me backtrack on this one. 01:09:47.319 --> 01:09:51.380 They had two different groups. We had the healthier 01:09:51.380 --> 01:09:53.460 population, fire population, but same department. 01:09:53.640 --> 01:09:56.079 Now the unhealthy, let's say less -fetched population, 01:09:56.420 --> 01:09:59.300 they both get hurt. What is the dollar amount 01:09:59.300 --> 01:10:02.239 attributed to the unhealthy firefighter versus 01:10:02.239 --> 01:10:04.380 a healthier firefighter? And there's a big difference 01:10:04.380 --> 01:10:06.500 there. The unhealthy one takes longer to recover 01:10:06.500 --> 01:10:10.479 to get back on the job. And then they put a dollar 01:10:10.479 --> 01:10:12.500 amount to each group. How much does it cost for 01:10:12.500 --> 01:10:16.210 each one? So in terms of how much money you're 01:10:16.210 --> 01:10:18.949 saving, it's a no -brainer on this one. If we 01:10:18.949 --> 01:10:21.189 want to save more money on the long run, let's 01:10:21.189 --> 01:10:24.670 invest in whatever modalities, whatever policy 01:10:24.670 --> 01:10:26.949 we may have to in order to save more money in 01:10:26.949 --> 01:10:29.369 the long end. I think that one's a pretty easy 01:10:29.369 --> 01:10:31.270 argument now that there's also data published 01:10:31.270 --> 01:10:34.649 behind it as well. Absolutely. We'll stay on 01:10:34.649 --> 01:10:37.810 that theme. Throughout my career, I always took 01:10:37.810 --> 01:10:40.470 my job very seriously, you know, and I would 01:10:40.470 --> 01:10:42.590 say I stayed in shape despite the environment, 01:10:42.670 --> 01:10:45.869 not because of the environment. But many, many 01:10:45.869 --> 01:10:49.390 times I remember the, as you termed, fluffy firefighters 01:10:49.390 --> 01:10:52.390 saying it's always the fit guys that get hurt. 01:10:52.529 --> 01:10:55.109 And I actually, you know, got to give kudos to 01:10:55.109 --> 01:10:57.109 my last department. They had to pay for all my 01:10:57.109 --> 01:10:59.789 injuries from, you know, that were potentially 01:10:59.789 --> 01:11:02.989 building up from the career prior. But I had 01:11:02.989 --> 01:11:05.130 a back injury, which I rehabbed just with movement 01:11:05.130 --> 01:11:08.100 in the end. And then I have meniscus surgeries 01:11:08.100 --> 01:11:10.939 on both knees ultimately. But when you look at 01:11:10.939 --> 01:11:12.739 the science, and I had Stuart McGill on the show, 01:11:12.800 --> 01:11:16.460 for example, and you see the relationship between 01:11:16.460 --> 01:11:18.979 someone who's training for their job seriously, 01:11:19.020 --> 01:11:21.880 doing the job, doing the strength and conditioning 01:11:21.880 --> 01:11:24.899 for the job as well, that's not given the rest 01:11:24.899 --> 01:11:27.800 and recovery. you know it's not if it's when 01:11:27.800 --> 01:11:31.000 many times so what have you seen as far as the 01:11:31.000 --> 01:11:33.819 the relationship between sleep deprivation and 01:11:33.819 --> 01:11:36.119 musculoskeletal injuries in firefighters that 01:11:36.119 --> 01:11:37.819 are taking their job seriously and doing the 01:11:37.819 --> 01:11:41.659 training so the nfpa every single year they publish 01:11:41.659 --> 01:11:44.979 a injury report and they start breaking down 01:11:44.979 --> 01:11:47.880 what are the most common forms of injuries and 01:11:47.880 --> 01:11:50.460 the most common one i think this year the past 01:11:50.460 --> 01:11:53.579 year was 23 that got published most recently 01:11:54.900 --> 01:11:59.479 And it was like upwards of 40 % of injuries were 01:11:59.479 --> 01:12:03.960 strains, sprains and strains and overexertion. 01:12:05.000 --> 01:12:08.000 So now this is taking down that rabbit hole of, 01:12:08.060 --> 01:12:10.180 well, what's causing so much of these over these 01:12:10.180 --> 01:12:13.739 muscular strains and sprains and exertion. And 01:12:13.739 --> 01:12:16.520 it could be easily, we can chop it down to maybe 01:12:16.520 --> 01:12:18.420 these guys are not strong enough. Maybe they're 01:12:18.420 --> 01:12:21.460 not fit enough. Okay. Why are they not fit enough 01:12:21.460 --> 01:12:24.439 and strong enough? And then we start. Trying 01:12:24.439 --> 01:12:26.939 to answer those questions from there. Then the 01:12:26.939 --> 01:12:30.439 question is, what relationship am I noticing 01:12:30.439 --> 01:12:33.800 between sleep deprivation and then injury? Is 01:12:33.800 --> 01:12:34.939 that the question that I'm trying to answer here? 01:12:35.319 --> 01:12:38.220 Yes. All right. So then we start exploring this 01:12:38.220 --> 01:12:41.359 a little bit more. Why aren't the guys working 01:12:41.359 --> 01:12:46.159 out as consistent as they should? Then we start 01:12:46.159 --> 01:12:47.619 exploring this a little bit more and we say, 01:12:47.640 --> 01:12:50.840 all right, well, why didn't we do PT today? Last 01:12:50.840 --> 01:12:54.390 night I had one, two, three after midnight. Then 01:12:54.390 --> 01:12:57.149 motivation goes down. The desire to exercise 01:12:57.149 --> 01:13:00.970 is a lot lower. This has been published multiple 01:13:00.970 --> 01:13:03.430 times, almost at systematic review levels. So 01:13:03.430 --> 01:13:05.649 multiple different types of shift workers. Why 01:13:05.649 --> 01:13:07.949 is PT or why is exercise, physical activity so 01:13:07.949 --> 01:13:10.510 low in shift workers? And the main, main thing 01:13:10.510 --> 01:13:12.050 that always gets brought up is your fatigue. 01:13:12.149 --> 01:13:16.350 You're tired. Motivation is low. So then now 01:13:16.350 --> 01:13:21.010 PT is decreasing. Lower PT over the weeks, months, 01:13:21.050 --> 01:13:25.300 years. And when they're lifting up that one patient 01:13:25.300 --> 01:13:28.100 or when they're throwing that ladder, when they're 01:13:28.100 --> 01:13:30.060 doing whatever physical exertion they have to 01:13:30.060 --> 01:13:32.159 do at whatever intensity they have to do it at, 01:13:32.279 --> 01:13:35.439 their body's deconditioned. And unfortunately, 01:13:35.659 --> 01:13:38.359 you would see some sort of muscular sprain, strain 01:13:38.359 --> 01:13:42.560 and overexertion. I think that's where the pipeline 01:13:42.560 --> 01:13:45.760 really leads us to. Well, adding another layer 01:13:45.760 --> 01:13:49.039 to that coming from the guy who did keep training 01:13:49.039 --> 01:13:52.250 despite it. I went through and did ex -vis at 01:13:52.250 --> 01:13:56.170 the bachelor level. And, you know, going through 01:13:56.170 --> 01:13:58.289 all the training, you start to learn like from 01:13:58.289 --> 01:14:00.789 a skill acquisition point of view and a strength 01:14:00.789 --> 01:14:03.590 and conditioning point of view, where you learn, 01:14:03.710 --> 01:14:05.670 where you process learning is when you sleep. 01:14:05.789 --> 01:14:08.630 When your muscles, ligaments and tendons repair 01:14:08.630 --> 01:14:11.270 from the damage you've done, deliberate damage 01:14:11.270 --> 01:14:14.750 from strength training is when you sleep. So 01:14:14.750 --> 01:14:19.619 in my case, 14 years. of not sleeping every third 01:14:19.619 --> 01:14:22.880 day it's no wonder that ultimately something 01:14:22.880 --> 01:14:25.479 was going to break because that's literally you 01:14:25.479 --> 01:14:28.720 know what is that like four years that i didn't 01:14:28.720 --> 01:14:31.819 sleep if you if you add it all up so you know 01:14:31.819 --> 01:14:34.279 when i just lean into my exercise physiology 01:14:34.279 --> 01:14:36.939 you know that i was taught if you don't have 01:14:36.939 --> 01:14:39.579 the opportunity to get in that deep parath excuse 01:14:39.579 --> 01:14:42.840 me parasympathetic sleep that restorative sleep 01:14:43.390 --> 01:14:45.989 you're not going to have the restorative effects 01:14:45.989 --> 01:14:49.090 in your musculoskeletal system. So you are going 01:14:49.090 --> 01:14:51.550 to have breakdown and ultimately you are going 01:14:51.550 --> 01:14:54.869 to get hurt, which again is a huge dollar amount. 01:14:54.989 --> 01:14:57.909 It lends an argument to give these people that 01:14:57.909 --> 01:15:02.270 72 hour period. So as you said. the you know 01:15:02.270 --> 01:15:04.329 the ones that were kind of in the middle will 01:15:04.329 --> 01:15:06.430 get back to being motivated and be able to work 01:15:06.430 --> 01:15:09.090 out again and the ones you know everyone else 01:15:09.090 --> 01:15:10.689 then who's taking it seriously are doing strength 01:15:10.689 --> 01:15:12.210 and conditioning then they're pulling hose and 01:15:12.210 --> 01:15:13.569 throwing ladders then they're actually doing 01:15:13.569 --> 01:15:16.149 it on calls and they're lifting patients their 01:15:16.149 --> 01:15:19.010 body is able to actually recover from that and 01:15:19.010 --> 01:15:21.890 therefore be more resilient rather than potentially 01:15:21.890 --> 01:15:26.010 just waiting to get broken this reminded me of 01:15:26.010 --> 01:15:28.390 uh another side i think it's by poston as well 01:15:28.970 --> 01:15:30.869 where they were looking at prevalence of injury 01:15:30.869 --> 01:15:34.409 while on duty and prevalence of injury while 01:15:34.409 --> 01:15:37.949 on duty and what activities were causing that 01:15:37.949 --> 01:15:41.449 injury. The number one category was training, 01:15:41.590 --> 01:15:45.430 exercise. Those who were exercising are the ones 01:15:45.430 --> 01:15:48.529 who are getting the hurt most often. So if we 01:15:48.529 --> 01:15:52.229 stop there, the conclusion is exercise on duty 01:15:52.229 --> 01:15:55.039 is bad because injury is high. And there's many 01:15:55.039 --> 01:15:57.300 HR departments that have literally done that 01:15:57.300 --> 01:15:59.279 and removed gym equipment from stations because 01:15:59.279 --> 01:16:02.640 they stopped right there. So we have departments, 01:16:02.739 --> 01:16:04.180 and I won't mention names, that say, all right, 01:16:04.180 --> 01:16:07.060 you cannot deadlift. You cannot play team sports. 01:16:07.319 --> 01:16:09.819 Some team sports are coming back, though. And 01:16:09.819 --> 01:16:11.640 there are certain exercises and movements that 01:16:11.640 --> 01:16:17.180 you can't do on duty. So if you stop there, that's 01:16:17.180 --> 01:16:19.560 the conclusion. Exercise causes more injury. 01:16:20.319 --> 01:16:24.310 They're not wrong. But then you look at when 01:16:24.310 --> 01:16:27.350 somebody does get injured, how long does it take 01:16:27.350 --> 01:16:30.390 them to come back to duty? So the severity of 01:16:30.390 --> 01:16:32.890 that injury. So if we have, this goes back to 01:16:32.890 --> 01:16:34.010 what we just mentioned a couple of minutes ago, 01:16:34.109 --> 01:16:36.430 is now you have two firefighters, they both get 01:16:36.430 --> 01:16:39.069 injured. How long does it take them to come back 01:16:39.069 --> 01:16:41.109 on duty? The fitter individual, the stronger 01:16:41.109 --> 01:16:43.189 individual with higher levels of fitness, higher 01:16:43.189 --> 01:16:44.829 levels of strength, lower levels of body composition, 01:16:45.069 --> 01:16:47.409 they're back on the floor much quicker compared 01:16:47.409 --> 01:16:49.510 to their lower, their unhealthier counterparts. 01:16:50.520 --> 01:16:53.659 So from that perspective, you can easily counter 01:16:53.659 --> 01:16:56.079 that argument of exercise being bad while on 01:16:56.079 --> 01:17:00.800 duty. And now if we're speaking longevity, how 01:17:00.800 --> 01:17:03.159 long do they stay healthy throughout their entire 01:17:03.159 --> 01:17:06.720 career? That one is a no -brainer as well. Stronger 01:17:06.720 --> 01:17:09.020 firefighters, leaner firefighters, higher levels 01:17:09.020 --> 01:17:12.180 of fitness. They have healthier levels of mental 01:17:12.180 --> 01:17:14.159 health. They have lower risk for cardiovascular 01:17:14.159 --> 01:17:17.279 disease, metabolic syndrome. So they can go through 01:17:17.279 --> 01:17:20.210 their career in a healthier state. compared to 01:17:20.210 --> 01:17:23.390 those who are not exercising is, sure, you're 01:17:23.390 --> 01:17:25.869 not going to get hurt from exercise, but you're 01:17:25.869 --> 01:17:28.810 going to get hurt from something else. Or it's 01:17:28.810 --> 01:17:30.489 going to be unfortunate and you're going to develop 01:17:30.489 --> 01:17:32.130 a high risk for cardiovascular disease and metabolic 01:17:32.130 --> 01:17:35.649 syndrome. And because the job is so tough on 01:17:35.649 --> 01:17:37.630 you guys mentally, your risk of anxiety, depression, 01:17:37.829 --> 01:17:42.229 PTSD is much, much higher. So you have one tally 01:17:42.229 --> 01:17:45.109 on the column of saying exercise bad because 01:17:45.109 --> 01:17:47.869 injury, and then multiple points of argument 01:17:47.869 --> 01:17:51.109 as to... why we should continue having a structured 01:17:51.109 --> 01:17:54.770 pre -team program for all fire guys. Absolutely. 01:17:54.810 --> 01:17:56.470 Well, and then just going back to the sleep, 01:17:56.529 --> 01:17:59.909 if you go back to your sporting athletes, if 01:17:59.909 --> 01:18:01.909 they didn't sleep or had massively disrupted 01:18:01.909 --> 01:18:04.430 sleep three days a week or three nights a week, 01:18:04.609 --> 01:18:07.250 what would be the prevalence of injury in a competitive 01:18:07.250 --> 01:18:09.729 athlete? And I would argue it would increase 01:18:09.729 --> 01:18:13.090 rapidly. So again, why is it any different for 01:18:13.090 --> 01:18:17.350 the firefighter? Cannot answer that question 01:18:17.350 --> 01:18:21.529 with any level of intelligence. That's just the 01:18:21.529 --> 01:18:26.029 fire service. And it takes a pretty strong influencer, 01:18:26.229 --> 01:18:29.550 if you will, to really pioneer this. And I'm 01:18:29.550 --> 01:18:33.090 assuming that's you, James. I've been beating 01:18:33.090 --> 01:18:34.670 the drum. I don't know if I'm influencing anyone, 01:18:34.789 --> 01:18:36.890 but I've at least been talking about it. All 01:18:36.890 --> 01:18:38.510 right. Well, you touched on mental health. That's 01:18:38.510 --> 01:18:43.170 a good segue. The correlation between sleep deprivation 01:18:43.170 --> 01:18:45.750 and all things mental health, what are you finding 01:18:45.750 --> 01:18:48.770 there on the research side? So this is now getting 01:18:48.770 --> 01:18:50.670 to a little bit of what my dissertation looked 01:18:50.670 --> 01:18:55.390 at. I was screening individuals for symptomology 01:18:55.390 --> 01:18:59.010 of PTSD. It was not saying, it was not diagnosing 01:18:59.010 --> 01:19:01.750 them with PTSD, just symptoms that make up PTSD. 01:19:02.250 --> 01:19:05.350 So this is avoidance, this is anxiety, this is, 01:19:05.350 --> 01:19:08.609 what are the other ones? avoidance anxiety there's 01:19:08.609 --> 01:19:09.750 some other ones it's going to come back to me 01:19:09.750 --> 01:19:13.550 and now i was looking at call volume as well 01:19:13.550 --> 01:19:17.729 so those who had a higher responding to more 01:19:17.729 --> 01:19:21.109 calls had higher symptomologies and prevalence 01:19:21.109 --> 01:19:24.609 of ptsd now add a layer to that those who had 01:19:24.609 --> 01:19:27.949 less sleep and higher call volume had even greater 01:19:27.949 --> 01:19:31.149 risk of high and high symptomology of ptsd so 01:19:31.149 --> 01:19:33.449 put it together if you're at a busy station and 01:19:33.449 --> 01:19:35.090 you're getting very little sleep at a busy station 01:19:35.680 --> 01:19:37.960 you have a high risk for developing anxiety, 01:19:38.199 --> 01:19:43.239 depression, and symptomology of PTSD. So that 01:19:43.239 --> 01:19:45.359 was what my dissertation specifically was looking 01:19:45.359 --> 01:19:48.000 at, a subsection of my dissertation. And then 01:19:48.000 --> 01:19:50.920 you look at the research at large, and this is 01:19:50.920 --> 01:19:53.420 across different populations, not just in the 01:19:53.420 --> 01:19:57.760 fire, is sleep is very restorative. And for those 01:19:57.760 --> 01:20:01.619 who experience, deal, go through, witness some 01:20:01.619 --> 01:20:04.800 sort of trauma, what helps them deal with that 01:20:04.800 --> 01:20:07.720 trauma, recover from it is sleep. We start getting 01:20:07.720 --> 01:20:10.159 into more of like the neuroscience behind this 01:20:10.159 --> 01:20:12.079 and the physiology behind it. And there's some 01:20:12.079 --> 01:20:13.720 restorative mechanisms that go on while you're 01:20:13.720 --> 01:20:16.539 sleeping that helps you process and recover and 01:20:16.539 --> 01:20:18.520 deal and cope with that trauma in a healthy way. 01:20:18.939 --> 01:20:22.979 But remove that and you're playing that same 01:20:22.979 --> 01:20:25.300 tape over and over and over again while you're 01:20:25.300 --> 01:20:31.199 in bed trying to fall asleep. And that over multiple 01:20:31.199 --> 01:20:35.090 years at your career. it's going to take a toll 01:20:35.090 --> 01:20:37.649 on you. There was a paper that got published 01:20:37.649 --> 01:20:42.569 by Janky, Sarah Janky, maybe early 2010s -ish. 01:20:42.649 --> 01:20:44.829 I may be wrong on the year. And it was qualitative. 01:20:45.069 --> 01:20:47.970 So it was interviewing firefighters from different 01:20:47.970 --> 01:20:50.270 ranks, from the fire to the engineer to the captain 01:20:50.270 --> 01:20:53.029 and the chiefs as well. But they were getting 01:20:53.029 --> 01:20:55.909 them in different groups too so that me as a 01:20:55.909 --> 01:20:57.470 firefighter was not speaking in the same group 01:20:57.470 --> 01:21:00.689 that my captain or my VC is in. So now it gives 01:21:00.689 --> 01:21:02.149 me a little bit more level of comfort to talk 01:21:02.149 --> 01:21:05.340 here. And some of the stuff, the quotes that 01:21:05.340 --> 01:21:09.220 are in that research, it's heavy. Some of the 01:21:09.220 --> 01:21:13.000 stuff is like you go to that one call, you respond 01:21:13.000 --> 01:21:16.140 to it, and it's a traffic collision and you see 01:21:16.140 --> 01:21:19.380 some stuff. And you know that's the career you're 01:21:19.380 --> 01:21:22.659 getting into, but then you have to go respond 01:21:22.659 --> 01:21:24.659 to another call right away. And you don't sleep 01:21:24.659 --> 01:21:27.479 that night and you're holding on to that memory. 01:21:27.560 --> 01:21:30.479 You're collecting these memories. And these experiences 01:21:30.479 --> 01:21:33.000 throughout your entire career and you are not 01:21:33.000 --> 01:21:35.100 having the resource, one of the main resources, 01:21:35.260 --> 01:21:38.619 sleep recovery to help deal with that. So then 01:21:38.619 --> 01:21:41.939 that takes us down another deep hole from there 01:21:41.939 --> 01:21:45.800 or dark hole from there. This is what I find 01:21:45.800 --> 01:21:48.979 exciting. It's maddening that there's resistance 01:21:48.979 --> 01:21:52.699 to these conversations, especially the work week. 01:21:53.199 --> 01:21:58.640 But being an incurable yet angry optimist. There's 01:21:58.640 --> 01:22:01.159 a beautiful opportunity, especially in this recruitment 01:22:01.159 --> 01:22:03.260 crisis, because now people are being forced to 01:22:03.260 --> 01:22:07.199 pay attention. You're bleeding people. The number 01:22:07.199 --> 01:22:09.920 of recruits is dwindling massively. There's something 01:22:09.920 --> 01:22:12.979 that's broken. We need to change it. But when 01:22:12.979 --> 01:22:15.859 you actually break down all the contributing 01:22:15.859 --> 01:22:20.680 elements to especially suicide, you can see them. 01:22:20.819 --> 01:22:24.300 No one knows the kind of ratio of everyone's 01:22:24.300 --> 01:22:26.859 individual thing, but we know that a lot of us. 01:22:27.279 --> 01:22:30.159 have on you know have childhood trauma now some 01:22:30.159 --> 01:22:32.779 of them have been able to address it you know 01:22:32.779 --> 01:22:35.039 prior to coming on to the profession and that 01:22:35.039 --> 01:22:37.779 i 100 believe the post -traumatic growth that 01:22:37.779 --> 01:22:40.619 becomes a strength if left unaddressed absolutely 01:22:40.619 --> 01:22:43.659 it's a fracture in the foundation then you get 01:22:43.659 --> 01:22:45.899 on the job now you talk about sleep deprivation 01:22:45.899 --> 01:22:48.079 okay so so with the childhood trauma you have 01:22:48.079 --> 01:22:49.659 the ability to understand it as a profession 01:22:49.659 --> 01:22:52.239 and start addressing it at the front door make 01:22:52.239 --> 01:22:56.210 counseling as normal as pt You know, we know 01:22:56.210 --> 01:22:58.069 the reason you put this uniform on is because 01:22:58.069 --> 01:22:59.649 there's some things that have probably happened. 01:22:59.890 --> 01:23:02.010 And we're going to start working on that as much 01:23:02.010 --> 01:23:03.510 as we're going to work on your physical fitness. 01:23:03.909 --> 01:23:06.689 Then you get into the sleep deprivation. All 01:23:06.689 --> 01:23:08.250 right. Well, this is the way we used to do it 01:23:08.250 --> 01:23:10.170 as a profession. But now we understand the impact 01:23:10.170 --> 01:23:12.829 and we listen to Daniel's podcast. And now we 01:23:12.829 --> 01:23:15.770 get that we need more sleep. Now we're actually 01:23:15.770 --> 01:23:17.710 going to fix the work we can give these first 01:23:17.710 --> 01:23:20.189 responders the rest and recovery they need between 01:23:20.189 --> 01:23:23.390 the shifts. You know, then you obviously that 01:23:23.390 --> 01:23:25.710 is going to factor into a better culture. So 01:23:25.710 --> 01:23:27.989 maybe some of that toxic culture, organizational 01:23:27.989 --> 01:23:30.890 betrayal that we hear is very compounding starts 01:23:30.890 --> 01:23:33.409 to improve. You know, then you've got substance 01:23:33.409 --> 01:23:35.289 use and alcohol, then you've got the side effects 01:23:35.289 --> 01:23:37.210 of psych drugs. And each of these little pieces 01:23:37.210 --> 01:23:40.609 we can actually grab and start fixing. But the 01:23:40.609 --> 01:23:43.569 biggest one, again, as you just alluded to, in 01:23:43.569 --> 01:23:47.630 my opinion, is we know that sleep deprivation 01:23:47.630 --> 01:23:49.789 is detrimental to mental health. And that is 01:23:49.789 --> 01:23:52.739 an easy one to fix. It's going to take time maybe 01:23:52.739 --> 01:23:54.579 to get that person to open up about what happened 01:23:54.579 --> 01:23:56.979 when they were young. But we can change the work 01:23:56.979 --> 01:23:59.779 week like it's happening in Florida and massively 01:23:59.779 --> 01:24:01.979 impact that. And that's going to then fill all 01:24:01.979 --> 01:24:04.439 the vacant spots like Gainesville. I think literally 01:24:04.439 --> 01:24:08.199 next week we'll be fully staffed. 24, 72, four 01:24:08.199 --> 01:24:11.380 platoon, fully staffed with people lining up 01:24:11.380 --> 01:24:13.859 to work for them now. So this is where I think 01:24:13.859 --> 01:24:16.439 there's an amazing opportunity of rather turning 01:24:16.439 --> 01:24:19.399 our heads and just... glamorously burying all 01:24:19.399 --> 01:24:21.579 the people that we lose to addiction and suicide 01:24:21.579 --> 01:24:24.500 that we can actually pull these out the shadows 01:24:24.500 --> 01:24:27.180 into the spotlight and say this is a fucking 01:24:27.180 --> 01:24:31.720 huge contributing factor let's fix this you know 01:24:31.720 --> 01:24:33.579 we'll work on the other ones too but let's fix 01:24:33.579 --> 01:24:36.720 this and the science just as you've said is irrefutable 01:24:36.720 --> 01:24:39.699 when it comes to sleep deprivation and everything 01:24:39.699 --> 01:24:42.579 from you know the suicide ideation through to 01:24:42.579 --> 01:24:48.310 addiction oh a lot to unpack on that one So maybe 01:24:48.310 --> 01:24:51.609 two years ago, we have 20 something departments 01:24:51.609 --> 01:24:53.850 and we go to each one. I like having these conversations 01:24:53.850 --> 01:24:56.510 with them. And I ask them very high scope questions 01:24:56.510 --> 01:25:00.649 is, hey, how's overtime in this department? And 01:25:00.649 --> 01:25:02.930 almost across the board, two years ago, we're 01:25:02.930 --> 01:25:05.810 saying there's a lot of forced overtime. Why 01:25:05.810 --> 01:25:07.890 is there a lot of forced overtime? There's just 01:25:07.890 --> 01:25:10.369 a lot of staffing issues right now. There's a 01:25:10.369 --> 01:25:12.289 lot of openings. We have people retiring and 01:25:12.289 --> 01:25:15.369 we're having trouble to fill them in. Why are 01:25:15.369 --> 01:25:18.500 you having trouble to fill them in? Applications, 01:25:18.500 --> 01:25:22.680 they're much lower. Back then, 10, 20 years ago, 01:25:22.739 --> 01:25:25.239 we would have 100 applications for two spots. 01:25:25.880 --> 01:25:29.800 And now we have a few applications for 10 spots. 01:25:31.079 --> 01:25:34.260 So then it's like, well, why is recruiting so 01:25:34.260 --> 01:25:38.779 difficult across departments? And then we start 01:25:38.779 --> 01:25:40.220 going down different rabbit holes. But then I 01:25:40.220 --> 01:25:42.199 start looking at the departments that don't have 01:25:42.199 --> 01:25:45.439 staffing issues. So what are you guys doing while 01:25:45.439 --> 01:25:47.939 we're here? why is it so much easier for you 01:25:47.939 --> 01:25:50.800 guys to attract talent? And they mentioned, well, 01:25:50.840 --> 01:25:52.739 it's opportunity that we have here. We can do 01:25:52.739 --> 01:25:54.880 the Helitack stuff here. We can do the USAR. 01:25:55.039 --> 01:25:56.840 We can do Hazmat, whatever you want to do. So 01:25:56.840 --> 01:25:59.039 it's opportunity. It's like, okay, cool. So the 01:25:59.039 --> 01:26:02.039 recruits, they know where to go in order to get 01:26:02.039 --> 01:26:05.939 good opportunity. So preface with that, we have 01:26:05.939 --> 01:26:08.500 maybe two departments now that they're on the 01:26:08.500 --> 01:26:13.220 smaller end, let's say 50 to 60 members for the 01:26:13.220 --> 01:26:15.819 department. and they have high call volumes, 01:26:16.000 --> 01:26:20.180 high call volume, and they burn a lot too. So 01:26:20.180 --> 01:26:21.420 this is where I'm thinking, all right, they're 01:26:21.420 --> 01:26:22.619 young recruits. They want to go to a department 01:26:22.619 --> 01:26:25.640 where they're burning a lot. But when I speak 01:26:25.640 --> 01:26:27.380 to them, they say they have a high turnover rate. 01:26:27.939 --> 01:26:29.619 Why do you guys have such a high turnover rate? 01:26:29.720 --> 01:26:31.960 They're leaving us for this department and that 01:26:31.960 --> 01:26:34.439 department over there. Why are you guys leaving 01:26:34.439 --> 01:26:36.840 for those departments? And it says, they're just 01:26:36.840 --> 01:26:38.880 so busy here. We have so much first overtime. 01:26:39.399 --> 01:26:42.640 We're on a 4896, but... In reality, you're working 01:26:42.640 --> 01:26:49.140 96 and having 24 off, maybe 48 off. And the recruits 01:26:49.140 --> 01:26:51.359 that are on for a year, they realize this. They're 01:26:51.359 --> 01:26:53.979 on for two years, they realize this, and they're 01:26:53.979 --> 01:26:57.260 going to lead to where it's a little bit, they 01:26:57.260 --> 01:27:01.539 have a little bit more balance. And then now, 01:27:01.720 --> 01:27:04.539 so that's that pattern that I've been noticing 01:27:04.539 --> 01:27:07.680 over the past three years. So then now departments, 01:27:07.859 --> 01:27:10.359 if departments are thinking the way I am, and 01:27:10.359 --> 01:27:12.100 I really, really doubt it, Because I'm not a 01:27:12.100 --> 01:27:14.399 firefighter. I don't have that mind. But it's 01:27:14.399 --> 01:27:17.100 how does the department now mobilize their policies 01:27:17.100 --> 01:27:19.199 and their structures in order to attract as much 01:27:19.199 --> 01:27:22.640 of this from an opportunity standpoint, but also 01:27:22.640 --> 01:27:25.920 from a recovery standpoint. Because now you look 01:27:25.920 --> 01:27:27.560 at the generation that's coming into work right 01:27:27.560 --> 01:27:30.460 now, and it's not the boomer, the Gen X, or the 01:27:30.460 --> 01:27:32.899 millennial population that would prioritize work 01:27:32.899 --> 01:27:36.659 over self. Now it's the generation that's prioritizing 01:27:36.659 --> 01:27:39.659 self over work. And I'm not saying it's a bad 01:27:39.659 --> 01:27:44.359 thing. I think the Gen Z population are figuring 01:27:44.359 --> 01:27:47.560 a lot of things out that their predecessors haven't. 01:27:47.699 --> 01:27:50.680 But how do you recruit these Gen Zers now? And 01:27:50.680 --> 01:27:51.819 how do you tell them, hey, you're going to be 01:27:51.819 --> 01:27:56.380 working 96 on. You're going to have a 48 -96 01:27:56.380 --> 01:27:57.960 schedule, but in reality, you're going to be 01:27:57.960 --> 01:28:02.279 working four on one, maybe two off. And you're 01:28:02.279 --> 01:28:04.199 going to see your kids and your family once, 01:28:04.239 --> 01:28:07.770 maybe twice a week. And for this Gen Z population, 01:28:08.109 --> 01:28:12.050 that's not going to fly. So I see when the Gen 01:28:12.050 --> 01:28:16.050 Z becomes the main, like the dominant contributor 01:28:16.050 --> 01:28:17.789 to the workforce, especially in the fire service, 01:28:18.010 --> 01:28:20.270 something's going to shift. It has to shift because 01:28:20.270 --> 01:28:24.430 Gen Z, that's what they're known for. And I think 01:28:24.430 --> 01:28:25.670 those are some cultural shifts you're going to 01:28:25.670 --> 01:28:30.189 see. I'm so glad that you said that. The reason 01:28:30.189 --> 01:28:32.170 being, I've talked about this recently, the Wall 01:28:32.170 --> 01:28:34.350 Street Journal put out an article probably a 01:28:34.350 --> 01:28:37.340 couple of months ago now. talking about how Gen 01:28:37.340 --> 01:28:41.439 Z are leaning heavily into the trades. And it 01:28:41.439 --> 01:28:43.319 kind of just underlines what I've been talking 01:28:43.319 --> 01:28:45.659 about. But it's a pseudo hypothesis, even though, 01:28:45.659 --> 01:28:48.399 again, I would argue it's somewhat common sense. 01:28:49.199 --> 01:28:52.680 But my generation, I'm Gen X. You're absolutely 01:28:52.680 --> 01:28:54.819 right. I was actually talking to one of the guys 01:28:54.819 --> 01:28:57.159 that taught me in my first fire department. And 01:28:57.159 --> 01:28:59.420 I've recently been reminiscing. I totally forgot 01:28:59.420 --> 01:29:01.359 this. When I got hired, I didn't even know what 01:29:01.359 --> 01:29:03.399 the salary was. They didn't post the salary. 01:29:03.680 --> 01:29:06.350 It was that competitive. that we just showed 01:29:06.350 --> 01:29:08.130 up and then they told us and it was shit. And 01:29:08.130 --> 01:29:09.949 we were like, oh, well, you know, we're firefighters 01:29:09.949 --> 01:29:13.289 now. Very different now. And it's not like you 01:29:13.289 --> 01:29:16.430 said, it's not a negative at all. The Wall Street 01:29:16.430 --> 01:29:17.770 Journal, like I said, was saying they're leading 01:29:17.770 --> 01:29:20.069 into the trade. So I'm a young person and now 01:29:20.069 --> 01:29:22.989 I have all the information available, just like 01:29:22.989 --> 01:29:24.609 you talked about earlier, when it comes to nutrition, 01:29:24.729 --> 01:29:26.210 strength and conditioning, everything is there. 01:29:26.810 --> 01:29:30.050 And so I Google, you know, is it worth going 01:29:30.050 --> 01:29:32.189 to college? And it comes up, well, yeah, if you 01:29:32.189 --> 01:29:35.529 want to be a doctor. or you know a lawyer then 01:29:35.529 --> 01:29:37.369 yes there is there's a track that you have to 01:29:37.369 --> 01:29:39.789 go it takes you to college but on the other side 01:29:39.789 --> 01:29:42.789 you could spend sixty thousand dollars in student 01:29:42.789 --> 01:29:45.210 debt have a piece of paper that doesn't guarantee 01:29:45.210 --> 01:29:47.329 you a job and so these young people are going 01:29:47.329 --> 01:29:48.909 well that doesn't sound like that makes much 01:29:48.909 --> 01:29:51.270 sense i'm not going to do that but if you go 01:29:51.270 --> 01:29:53.409 to community college for a year you can be a 01:29:53.409 --> 01:29:55.750 welder and make six figures oh yeah i'm going 01:29:55.750 --> 01:29:57.729 to do that then that makes perfect sense because 01:29:57.729 --> 01:29:59.649 i can be home you know and this is the work week 01:29:59.649 --> 01:30:03.449 and and these young people with If we've raised 01:30:03.449 --> 01:30:06.149 them right, my generation, they understand about 01:30:06.149 --> 01:30:08.069 strength and conditioning and fitness, the importance 01:30:08.069 --> 01:30:09.829 of longevity. They understand about nutrition. 01:30:10.010 --> 01:30:12.430 They understand about mental health. They value 01:30:12.430 --> 01:30:14.850 relationships. Because I would argue a lot of 01:30:14.850 --> 01:30:17.250 people in uniform, we've done our best to try 01:30:17.250 --> 01:30:21.829 and be present as much as we can. And so I hope 01:30:21.829 --> 01:30:23.289 that we've done a good job and this has created 01:30:23.289 --> 01:30:26.710 an even better generation. But that great generation 01:30:26.710 --> 01:30:28.770 now is looking at the way we work and going, 01:30:28.810 --> 01:30:32.810 you guys have lost your mind. like 56 hours a 01:30:32.810 --> 01:30:35.449 week, mandatory overtime. Now it's 80. And like 01:30:35.449 --> 01:30:37.609 you said, I mean, I worked at Anaheim. It was 01:30:37.609 --> 01:30:40.989 the Kelly. So if I got hit on a mandatory, that 01:30:40.989 --> 01:30:45.050 was a 72 hour shift for me. Then I have a 24 01:30:45.050 --> 01:30:47.390 ride drive again, 70 miles, hope not to die on 01:30:47.390 --> 01:30:49.470 the way home. And then I'm back to work again. 01:30:49.989 --> 01:30:52.710 So they're looking at it going, this is terrible. 01:30:52.789 --> 01:30:55.710 But what's so exciting is in Florida, there's 01:30:55.710 --> 01:30:58.270 a revolution happening and they're realizing, 01:30:58.470 --> 01:31:02.510 oh, that's broken. So let's get a fourth shift, 01:31:02.630 --> 01:31:05.630 create a 42 -hour work week. And lo and behold, 01:31:05.770 --> 01:31:07.909 what's happened for those departments? People 01:31:07.909 --> 01:31:10.630 are lining up around the building, down the street 01:31:10.630 --> 01:31:13.109 to come work for those departments because they're 01:31:13.109 --> 01:31:15.090 showing them. Now you can say, well, now we're 01:31:15.090 --> 01:31:16.670 giving you an environment of performance. Let's 01:31:16.670 --> 01:31:19.689 put in a fitness standard. Let's also be saving 01:31:19.689 --> 01:31:22.529 money because as you said. That overtime, that 01:31:22.529 --> 01:31:25.069 costs a fortune. That lack of retention where 01:31:25.069 --> 01:31:27.149 you train these people and they leave you costs 01:31:27.149 --> 01:31:29.109 a fortune. There are millions and millions and 01:31:29.109 --> 01:31:31.189 millions of dollars downstream that you're losing. 01:31:31.949 --> 01:31:35.109 Workman's comp claims, line of duty death payments, 01:31:35.310 --> 01:31:38.109 retirement payments, the lawsuits that we mentioned. 01:31:38.590 --> 01:31:41.970 Let's invest in the front. And now these young 01:31:41.970 --> 01:31:44.109 people that want to go into the trades, a lot 01:31:44.109 --> 01:31:45.609 of them are like, well, now you fixed it. I'd 01:31:45.609 --> 01:31:48.010 love to be a firefighter. I wanted to serve. 01:31:48.090 --> 01:31:51.649 I value my family and my time. with my loved 01:31:51.649 --> 01:31:54.069 ones more than being in a meat grinder at a fire 01:31:54.069 --> 01:31:57.250 station. So a bit of a monologue there, but it 01:31:57.250 --> 01:31:59.510 just underlines what I've been saying for a long 01:31:59.510 --> 01:32:03.550 time is fix the working environment. The profession 01:32:03.550 --> 01:32:06.270 is amazing, but the intensity that we work at, 01:32:06.369 --> 01:32:08.949 we have to give these men and women the recovery. 01:32:09.310 --> 01:32:11.909 And what's interesting is I just did a presentation 01:32:11.909 --> 01:32:14.010 in California. I wasn't supposed to be there 01:32:14.010 --> 01:32:17.029 to do this specifically, but it was a kind of 01:32:17.029 --> 01:32:20.560 leadership. slash, um, mental health, you know, 01:32:20.579 --> 01:32:22.340 a couple of days with, with some friends of mine 01:32:22.340 --> 01:32:24.260 and this department had just had line of duty 01:32:24.260 --> 01:32:27.159 death, a cardiac arrest. And so I talked about 01:32:27.159 --> 01:32:29.500 this, this, you know, everything that we've talked 01:32:29.500 --> 01:32:31.899 about and the shift and this new work week and 01:32:31.899 --> 01:32:34.859 these California firefighters were just, they'd 01:32:34.859 --> 01:32:36.539 never heard anyone even talk about it before. 01:32:36.979 --> 01:32:40.420 And this is what blows me away. So if we want 01:32:40.420 --> 01:32:43.180 to turn this around, like you said, opportunity, 01:32:43.500 --> 01:32:45.760 you know, culture, absolutely that a hundred 01:32:45.760 --> 01:32:48.210 percent draws people in. But if we really want 01:32:48.210 --> 01:32:50.050 to get these young people lining up like they 01:32:50.050 --> 01:32:53.310 absolutely did when I was testing, like Anaheim, 01:32:53.310 --> 01:32:56.449 I sat against a thousand firefighters for 30 01:32:56.449 --> 01:32:58.729 jobs. And this was at the written test. If you 01:32:58.729 --> 01:33:01.109 want to get back to that, we have to fix the 01:33:01.109 --> 01:33:03.130 things that are broken. So I couldn't agree more 01:33:03.130 --> 01:33:05.449 with, you know, like you said, this young generation 01:33:05.449 --> 01:33:08.649 are an amazing generation, but they're not stupid. 01:33:08.770 --> 01:33:11.170 And they understand the ultimate currency isn't 01:33:11.170 --> 01:33:17.250 money. It's time. 100%. Yeah, to add another 01:33:17.250 --> 01:33:20.109 layer to that, NFPA, every single year, they 01:33:20.109 --> 01:33:23.250 publish call volume trends. And they break down 01:33:23.250 --> 01:33:25.310 those call volumes by, are they FHIR, are they 01:33:25.310 --> 01:33:29.390 EMS, HAZMAT, et cetera. And every single year 01:33:29.390 --> 01:33:33.010 since the 80s, call volume has gone up. There's 01:33:33.010 --> 01:33:35.550 only two years in the past 40 years that call 01:33:35.550 --> 01:33:38.329 volume has gone down. One was in the 1980s, and 01:33:38.329 --> 01:33:41.029 then the other one was recent, 2020. Call volume 01:33:41.029 --> 01:33:45.479 went down. So now this is a national level trend. 01:33:46.020 --> 01:33:48.319 I tell the departments, let's zoom in now. Let's 01:33:48.319 --> 01:33:51.079 just talk about your department. Have you also 01:33:51.079 --> 01:33:54.279 noticed the same pattern across the board? Everyone 01:33:54.279 --> 01:33:56.699 says, yeah, call volume is much higher now than 01:33:56.699 --> 01:33:59.420 when I got hired on 15 years ago. All right. 01:33:59.699 --> 01:34:01.760 So call volume is high means workload is higher. 01:34:02.180 --> 01:34:04.579 If workload is higher, the same 24 hours means 01:34:04.579 --> 01:34:05.960 you're responding to more calls throughout the 01:34:05.960 --> 01:34:08.180 24 hour shift. And there's the high chance that 01:34:08.180 --> 01:34:11.119 it may start to trickle into your sleep. You 01:34:11.119 --> 01:34:12.640 probably were having one call after midnight, 01:34:12.760 --> 01:34:15.279 and now you're having two. It was probably taking 01:34:15.279 --> 01:34:17.380 you 30 minutes to fall asleep before, and now 01:34:17.380 --> 01:34:20.159 it's taking you 60 minutes to fall asleep. So 01:34:20.159 --> 01:34:22.159 with this increase in call volume, how is it 01:34:22.159 --> 01:34:24.140 going to influence your overall health and wellness? 01:34:24.720 --> 01:34:27.039 So that's a topic I use to really start facilitating 01:34:27.039 --> 01:34:28.920 discussion and get the group to really open up. 01:34:30.020 --> 01:34:32.760 And now I zoom out from that, and I think, all 01:34:32.760 --> 01:34:34.819 right, call volume is increasing for all the 01:34:34.819 --> 01:34:40.119 departments. And it's becoming known that firefighting 01:34:40.119 --> 01:34:42.600 is a carcinogen just in itself is causing cancer. 01:34:43.460 --> 01:34:46.159 And the risk for divorce is high and the risk 01:34:46.159 --> 01:34:49.239 for mental health is high. This is not a good 01:34:49.239 --> 01:34:52.479 recruiting tool for the young generation. And 01:34:52.479 --> 01:34:54.159 the young generation is like, nah, I'm going 01:34:54.159 --> 01:34:56.640 to go do something else because I value my time 01:34:56.640 --> 01:34:59.720 over work. So we're going to have to, when I 01:34:59.720 --> 01:35:01.640 say we, I'm talking to the fire service in general. 01:35:02.020 --> 01:35:04.779 The fire service is going to have to figure out 01:35:04.779 --> 01:35:08.659 how to. become better marketers um some departments 01:35:08.659 --> 01:35:11.239 are really leaning into their social medias and 01:35:11.239 --> 01:35:13.300 they're doing a good job of showing like how 01:35:13.300 --> 01:35:16.180 exciting and sexy it is to be a firefighter and 01:35:16.180 --> 01:35:18.840 you see their engagement start to increase so 01:35:18.840 --> 01:35:21.520 i see departments trying to move in that direction 01:35:21.520 --> 01:35:25.720 but to really double down on how can we prioritize 01:35:25.720 --> 01:35:29.340 the wellness of our members is everything you 01:35:29.340 --> 01:35:33.060 just mentioned absolutely i think one of the 01:35:33.060 --> 01:35:35.920 biggest hooks to me Because I get a lot of pushback 01:35:35.920 --> 01:35:40.319 from our own people, like a fighting this change 01:35:40.319 --> 01:35:43.119 to a shorter work week, which I honestly, I give 01:35:43.119 --> 01:35:46.180 them grace because I think truly they're just 01:35:46.180 --> 01:35:49.859 so beat down and so tired and stressed that the 01:35:49.859 --> 01:35:52.300 ability to really critically think is kind of 01:35:52.300 --> 01:35:54.619 taken away. And I think during COVID was a perfect 01:35:54.619 --> 01:35:58.659 example. A lot of arguably normal people got 01:35:58.659 --> 01:36:01.039 pulled to an extreme left or right during that 01:36:01.039 --> 01:36:02.800 time. And it was because there was a lot of fear 01:36:02.800 --> 01:36:05.199 and stress kind of. you know, pushed upon them. 01:36:05.659 --> 01:36:10.119 Um, but, uh, well, I think the real hook is firstly 01:36:10.119 --> 01:36:12.460 just time with your family. I talk about this, 01:36:12.479 --> 01:36:15.420 you know, how many donuts for dads and recitals 01:36:15.420 --> 01:36:18.420 and, and graduations and, you know, first steps 01:36:18.420 --> 01:36:21.760 have you missed because not, not the, even the 01:36:21.760 --> 01:36:23.420 shifts you should have done the shifts that you 01:36:23.420 --> 01:36:26.609 were forced to do extra. But then if you want 01:36:26.609 --> 01:36:28.609 to really, I'd love to see if you've been exposed 01:36:28.609 --> 01:36:31.170 to this research. One of the most harrowing things 01:36:31.170 --> 01:36:33.670 that Sarah talked about in this most recent conversation 01:36:33.670 --> 01:36:37.289 we had, Sarah Jenke, was the relationships between 01:36:37.289 --> 01:36:41.130 our job. And again, you know, there's a correlation 01:36:41.130 --> 01:36:43.590 not only with carcinogens, but the sleep deprivation 01:36:43.590 --> 01:36:46.789 from shifts, but our job and pediatric diseases, 01:36:47.130 --> 01:36:50.590 passing things on to our children. Have you dived 01:36:50.590 --> 01:36:54.409 into that side of the research? No. No, I don't 01:36:54.409 --> 01:36:57.029 know much about that. Yeah, I forget. But I mean, 01:36:57.050 --> 01:37:00.789 the statistics, the percentages are horrendous. 01:37:00.869 --> 01:37:03.390 You know, everything from, you know, autism down 01:37:03.390 --> 01:37:06.569 some of the pediatric cancers through to the 01:37:06.569 --> 01:37:09.529 infertility side. You know, it's a huge, huge 01:37:09.529 --> 01:37:12.430 impact. So again, take a step back. I always 01:37:12.430 --> 01:37:14.930 ask people, who is the most important thing? 01:37:15.090 --> 01:37:17.449 Don't tell me the fire service is in front of 01:37:17.449 --> 01:37:19.609 your family. You've got it so skewed if that's 01:37:19.609 --> 01:37:21.430 the way you think. So the family is always going 01:37:21.430 --> 01:37:23.720 to come first. Well, if it's destroying your 01:37:23.720 --> 01:37:25.720 relationships because of all this mandatory overtime 01:37:25.720 --> 01:37:28.720 or even the crazy long work week, and now you've 01:37:28.720 --> 01:37:31.880 got the potential of passing a childhood disease 01:37:31.880 --> 01:37:35.300 to your next child, like, isn't that enough to 01:37:35.300 --> 01:37:37.380 fight for? Isn't that enough to say, you know 01:37:37.380 --> 01:37:40.340 what? You're right. Why are we working 56 when 01:37:40.340 --> 01:37:43.279 the person says that we need to work 56, works 01:37:43.279 --> 01:37:45.399 40 hours and goes home on a Friday night at 5 01:37:45.399 --> 01:37:49.210 p .m.? Like to me, that that is a real like knife 01:37:49.210 --> 01:37:51.289 in the back to get you to pay attention, because 01:37:51.289 --> 01:37:53.670 you can beat your chest and talk about I'll sleep 01:37:53.670 --> 01:37:55.470 while I'm dead. But what about your daughter 01:37:55.470 --> 01:37:57.689 or your son? Are they not worth fighting for? 01:37:59.229 --> 01:38:01.470 I can tell that you've given this a lot of thought 01:38:01.470 --> 01:38:03.750 and you have very well polished arguments on 01:38:03.750 --> 01:38:08.130 this. I'm just I mean, I've sadly I've given 01:38:08.130 --> 01:38:09.609 it a lot of thought because I've watched a lot 01:38:09.609 --> 01:38:11.949 of coffins covered in American flags. I mean, 01:38:11.949 --> 01:38:15.159 that's that's the harsh reality. And I see a 01:38:15.159 --> 01:38:16.720 lot of people that struggle to have children. 01:38:16.760 --> 01:38:18.800 I know a lot of firefighters whose children do 01:38:18.800 --> 01:38:21.640 have health challenges or developmental challenges. 01:38:21.819 --> 01:38:25.020 So, you know, it's another layer to this that 01:38:25.020 --> 01:38:30.319 I think needs to be addressed. Yeah, the firefighter 01:38:30.319 --> 01:38:33.340 has a lot of challenges they have to, one, learn 01:38:33.340 --> 01:38:35.880 how to navigate. And hopefully their department 01:38:35.880 --> 01:38:38.699 is providing resources. Hopefully they're getting 01:38:38.699 --> 01:38:42.880 good information on whatever internet platform. 01:38:43.770 --> 01:38:47.949 Because they got to battle PT. They got to figure 01:38:47.949 --> 01:38:49.869 out how to PT correctly, how to eat correctly, 01:38:50.069 --> 01:38:52.590 how to sleep correctly, how to become good, competent 01:38:52.590 --> 01:38:55.250 firefighters, how to go home and still be good 01:38:55.250 --> 01:38:57.310 moms, mothers, and fathers. They have a lot of 01:38:57.310 --> 01:39:02.909 challenges that they have to get better at, overcome. 01:39:04.470 --> 01:39:07.989 100%. All right, one more, well, two more areas. 01:39:08.029 --> 01:39:11.000 I want to hit wearables. Before we do. Talk to 01:39:11.000 --> 01:39:13.359 me about the relationship again with shift work 01:39:13.359 --> 01:39:16.199 and testosterone levels. And then let's kind 01:39:16.199 --> 01:39:21.640 of go down the TRT and other more holistic ways 01:39:21.640 --> 01:39:26.840 of raising testosterone back up. So at our program, 01:39:26.960 --> 01:39:31.439 we have firefighters. They draw blood and they 01:39:31.439 --> 01:39:33.119 look at their glucose, their metabolic and their 01:39:33.119 --> 01:39:35.699 cardiovascular profile. Now, more and more departments 01:39:35.699 --> 01:39:38.079 are looking at their testosterone levels. So 01:39:38.079 --> 01:39:41.359 they're drawing blood on duty. And we get those 01:39:41.359 --> 01:39:44.579 results because I like numbers. I look at results 01:39:44.579 --> 01:39:46.479 or trends as a whole for the entire department. 01:39:47.199 --> 01:39:51.140 And what we don't control for is when the blood 01:39:51.140 --> 01:39:53.899 is drawn. So is it drawn as soon as they get 01:39:53.899 --> 01:39:58.039 to station on their first day on? Or is it being 01:39:58.039 --> 01:40:00.180 drawn on that second day on? Or is it being drawn 01:40:00.180 --> 01:40:02.399 on the overtime day? So that's something I don't 01:40:02.399 --> 01:40:05.199 control. But on average, the firefighter has... 01:40:06.279 --> 01:40:11.340 maybe low 400s to mid 400s as an average testosterone 01:40:11.340 --> 01:40:14.699 level. This is a total testosterone. So again, 01:40:14.739 --> 01:40:18.039 I don't know when it's being drawn. So the normal 01:40:18.039 --> 01:40:20.779 level for testosterone, this is just for an average 01:40:20.779 --> 01:40:24.159 male, is from 300 to about 1 ,000, somewhere 01:40:24.159 --> 01:40:26.939 in that range there. So somebody having 400, 01:40:27.319 --> 01:40:30.239 is it normal? Yes. Is on the low end of normal? 01:40:30.640 --> 01:40:36.180 Also yes. So what is contributing to the firefighter 01:40:36.180 --> 01:40:39.279 almost as a whole having low levels of testosterone? 01:40:40.359 --> 01:40:42.060 Actually, before I start answering that question, 01:40:42.199 --> 01:40:44.079 then I start splitting them up into age groups. 01:40:45.279 --> 01:40:48.359 Does the younger firefighter have more testosterone 01:40:48.359 --> 01:40:50.600 than the older firefighter? The answer is obviously 01:40:50.600 --> 01:40:54.420 yes. Then I start splitting it up into ranks. 01:40:54.699 --> 01:40:56.779 The firefighter versus the engineer versus the 01:40:56.779 --> 01:40:59.939 captain. Does one rank have more testosterone 01:40:59.939 --> 01:41:02.680 than the other? The answer is also yes, but this 01:41:02.680 --> 01:41:04.859 one also correlates with age. It's usually the 01:41:04.859 --> 01:41:06.859 older you get, the more likely you are going 01:41:06.859 --> 01:41:08.819 to promote. So maybe that's not too much of an 01:41:08.819 --> 01:41:11.100 argument there. But nonetheless, what is causing 01:41:11.100 --> 01:41:12.880 the firefighter to have low levels of testosterone? 01:41:13.380 --> 01:41:17.579 Low normal levels of testosterone. And it's everything 01:41:17.579 --> 01:41:19.739 we've discussed already. The poor sleep deprivation 01:41:19.739 --> 01:41:23.939 will just plunge your testosterone levels. But 01:41:23.939 --> 01:41:25.479 then a good night's worth of sleep will start 01:41:25.479 --> 01:41:28.100 to increase your levels overall. So that number 01:41:28.100 --> 01:41:31.979 is very volatile. in its sense in itself but 01:41:31.979 --> 01:41:34.840 then now it's the testosterone it's the sleep 01:41:34.840 --> 01:41:37.920 deprivation and throw in layers of the mental 01:41:37.920 --> 01:41:39.600 health in there not even we're just not talking 01:41:39.600 --> 01:41:42.359 about like diagnosis of ptsd we're just talking 01:41:42.359 --> 01:41:44.380 like i have high anxiety because i always have 01:41:44.380 --> 01:41:48.479 to be on when i'm on duty so that alone as cortisol 01:41:48.479 --> 01:41:51.100 goes up then your testosterone will go down there's 01:41:51.100 --> 01:41:53.220 an inverse relationship there it's not always 01:41:53.220 --> 01:41:55.100 the case but for the most part as cortisol is 01:41:55.100 --> 01:41:56.300 higher testosterone is going to be a little bit 01:41:56.300 --> 01:41:58.859 lower So now we have sleep -deprived and stress 01:41:58.859 --> 01:42:01.279 firefighters, and you can start seeing why testosterone 01:42:01.279 --> 01:42:03.420 is a little bit on the low end, on the lower 01:42:03.420 --> 01:42:05.420 end of normal for the population as a whole. 01:42:06.460 --> 01:42:09.399 Then you ask the question, what can I do to boost 01:42:09.399 --> 01:42:12.460 my testosterone naturally? The number one answer 01:42:12.460 --> 01:42:13.840 to that one is going to be sleep. Get some more 01:42:13.840 --> 01:42:16.720 sleep. All right, but I can't because the job. 01:42:16.979 --> 01:42:18.300 It's like, all right, what can we do from there? 01:42:18.640 --> 01:42:20.659 Then it's going to come down to your exercise 01:42:20.659 --> 01:42:22.939 and your nutrition. Lift some heavy weights. 01:42:23.500 --> 01:42:25.760 prefer the heavier the weight is the better there's 01:42:25.760 --> 01:42:27.479 plenty of studies on this one if you compare 01:42:27.479 --> 01:42:29.979 weight lifters those who are lifting reps that 01:42:29.979 --> 01:42:32.880 are lower than five meaning the weight is heavy 01:42:32.880 --> 01:42:35.000 enough where you can't do more than five reps 01:42:35.000 --> 01:42:37.939 compared to lifters who are lifting about eight 01:42:37.939 --> 01:42:41.600 12 15 reps then the spike in testosterone post 01:42:41.600 --> 01:42:45.020 lift is going to be greater in the heavier weights 01:42:45.020 --> 01:42:48.579 so then you get the firefighter that says well 01:42:48.579 --> 01:42:50.399 my knee hurts and my back hurts i can't lift 01:42:50.399 --> 01:42:52.859 heavy weights all right well then we have to 01:42:52.859 --> 01:42:54.840 start addressing those limitations from there 01:42:54.840 --> 01:42:56.579 but then the next layer is going to be nutrition 01:42:56.579 --> 01:43:00.380 is what is going to help increase my levels of 01:43:00.380 --> 01:43:04.539 of testosterone from a nutrition standpoint actually 01:43:04.539 --> 01:43:06.500 i got too much ahead of myself right here it's 01:43:06.500 --> 01:43:09.239 going to be body composition if my body comp 01:43:09.239 --> 01:43:11.699 is too high meaning my body fat is too high then 01:43:11.699 --> 01:43:14.699 i am compromising my levels my natural levels 01:43:14.699 --> 01:43:17.239 of testosterone production so decrease body fat 01:43:17.239 --> 01:43:19.699 get a little bit leaner how do we get leaner 01:43:19.699 --> 01:43:21.420 then we start getting into different rabbit holes 01:43:21.420 --> 01:43:23.000 from there when it comes to diet and exercise. 01:43:23.680 --> 01:43:25.420 From an exercise perspective, just get a little 01:43:25.420 --> 01:43:27.260 bit more protein in you. Try to aim for a gram 01:43:27.260 --> 01:43:29.180 of protein per pound of lean body mass in the 01:43:29.180 --> 01:43:32.079 low end. If you can do it, a gram of protein 01:43:32.079 --> 01:43:34.739 per pound of body weight. That's a high -protein 01:43:34.739 --> 01:43:38.380 diet. That's really hard to do. I encourage whoever's 01:43:38.380 --> 01:43:39.899 listening, a gram of protein per pound of lean 01:43:39.899 --> 01:43:43.659 body mass. So to summarize that, try to get more 01:43:43.659 --> 01:43:47.039 sleep if you can. If not, do what you can, but 01:43:47.039 --> 01:43:49.420 lift some heavier weights. If your joints allow 01:43:49.420 --> 01:43:51.739 you, lift some heavy weights. Make sure you're 01:43:51.739 --> 01:43:54.060 keeping your body fat levels to rather lean. 01:43:54.159 --> 01:43:57.840 So under 19 % is a decent level. And then get 01:43:57.840 --> 01:44:00.420 some high -protein diets. If you can do all those, 01:44:00.600 --> 01:44:02.500 that's going to be the natural way to improve 01:44:02.500 --> 01:44:07.020 your testosterone. Now, non -natural ways, this 01:44:07.020 --> 01:44:09.220 is a trend that I'm noticing more and more on, 01:44:09.319 --> 01:44:14.000 is more guys are jumping on testosterone replacement 01:44:14.000 --> 01:44:16.720 therapy, or TRT for short. So this is a trend 01:44:16.720 --> 01:44:18.199 that I've been noticing over maybe the past three 01:44:18.199 --> 01:44:22.380 years. When you get more on a one -on -one basis, 01:44:22.739 --> 01:44:25.640 the guys tend to open up a little bit more. And 01:44:25.640 --> 01:44:28.300 you ask, well, why? And he says, well, I'm battling 01:44:28.300 --> 01:44:31.899 the job. The job is tough on me. I'm putting 01:44:31.899 --> 01:44:34.680 on fat a lot easier or a lot faster now. It's 01:44:34.680 --> 01:44:37.319 harder for me to put on muscle mass. I feel so 01:44:37.319 --> 01:44:40.319 tired and fatigued after the shift. And this 01:44:40.319 --> 01:44:44.859 is an easier fix. So just off of that experience 01:44:44.859 --> 01:44:47.600 or that explanation. That I've heard multiple 01:44:47.600 --> 01:44:50.300 times across multiple departments. I'm not saying 01:44:50.300 --> 01:44:52.079 good or bad. I'm just saying this is the experience 01:44:52.079 --> 01:44:54.920 you're noticing right now. So if I project 10 01:44:54.920 --> 01:44:58.680 years into the future, I think TRT, you're going 01:44:58.680 --> 01:45:01.859 to see a lot more prevalent. Again, I am not 01:45:01.859 --> 01:45:05.159 endorsing TRT, nor am I discouraging it. I'm 01:45:05.159 --> 01:45:07.600 just trying to project the trend into the future 01:45:07.600 --> 01:45:10.439 here. As more guys jump on it and they start 01:45:10.439 --> 01:45:12.520 talking about it on the kitchen table a little 01:45:12.520 --> 01:45:14.960 bit more openly than who's ever listening, they 01:45:14.960 --> 01:45:17.380 say, oh, shit. My sleep isn't that good. I'm 01:45:17.380 --> 01:45:19.239 putting on some body fat. It's harder for me 01:45:19.239 --> 01:45:22.760 to put on some muscle mass. This is a $250 per 01:45:22.760 --> 01:45:27.060 month solution. Let me try it. So then that's 01:45:27.060 --> 01:45:30.560 the trend there. And it doesn't help that we 01:45:30.560 --> 01:45:34.680 have major, I want to say influencers or social 01:45:34.680 --> 01:45:39.340 media personalities that are openly on these 01:45:39.340 --> 01:45:43.569 type of therapies. So then... The guys are listening 01:45:43.569 --> 01:45:45.630 to this podcast on the way to work and they're 01:45:45.630 --> 01:45:47.229 saying, oh, it works for this guy. Maybe it may 01:45:47.229 --> 01:45:49.890 work for me. So that's just the landscape that 01:45:49.890 --> 01:45:54.329 I'm noticing. Now, healthy or unhealthy? This 01:45:54.329 --> 01:45:56.510 is where we start getting into more of your own 01:45:56.510 --> 01:45:58.250 personal decision. It's hopefully you get as 01:45:58.250 --> 01:46:00.670 much education as you can and you make the most 01:46:00.670 --> 01:46:05.010 educated decision possible. Is being on TRT a 01:46:05.010 --> 01:46:08.149 bad thing from the negatives? We just talk about 01:46:08.149 --> 01:46:10.710 what are the negatives of too much testosterone? 01:46:11.439 --> 01:46:13.119 When we're talking about too much testosterone 01:46:13.119 --> 01:46:15.479 is you're now in what they call super physiological 01:46:15.479 --> 01:46:18.699 levels. You're no longer in that 300 to 1 ,000 01:46:18.699 --> 01:46:21.479 range. You've now taken TRT and your bump numbers 01:46:21.479 --> 01:46:24.439 up to 1 ,200, 1 ,500, either because you wanted 01:46:24.439 --> 01:46:27.260 to or something else influenced you, whatever 01:46:27.260 --> 01:46:29.920 the reason is. Now this is where we start seeing 01:46:29.920 --> 01:46:31.880 all the negative side effects of high levels 01:46:31.880 --> 01:46:34.119 of testosterone. This is from an aesthetic perspective. 01:46:34.260 --> 01:46:36.699 We have hair loss. We have increase in body hair. 01:46:36.859 --> 01:46:39.569 We have an increase in gynecomastia. we have 01:46:39.569 --> 01:46:41.510 enlargement of the heart increased blood pressure 01:46:41.510 --> 01:46:44.550 increased cholesterol we have effect of the liver 01:46:44.550 --> 01:46:46.710 affecting your prostate so all these different 01:46:46.710 --> 01:46:50.090 items that start to mount up on the negative 01:46:50.090 --> 01:46:52.829 column all the positives you know about it already 01:46:52.829 --> 01:46:55.989 but all the negatives this is it from here so 01:46:55.989 --> 01:46:59.470 if you're going to do it is know that you're 01:46:59.470 --> 01:47:01.750 going to be on this for a long period of time 01:47:01.750 --> 01:47:05.109 know that you're going to be investing several 01:47:05.109 --> 01:47:08.140 hundred dollars per month to doing this Because 01:47:08.140 --> 01:47:10.840 if you know that you can invest the money for 01:47:10.840 --> 01:47:14.260 the next year, and then finances get tight, and 01:47:14.260 --> 01:47:16.319 you have to jump off this therapy because it's 01:47:16.319 --> 01:47:18.340 not covered by insurance, or it's more likely 01:47:18.340 --> 01:47:22.000 not going to be covered by insurance, then you're 01:47:22.000 --> 01:47:26.220 going to have to battle the whole phase of, I'm 01:47:26.220 --> 01:47:28.840 no longer taking testosterone exogenously. My 01:47:28.840 --> 01:47:31.659 personal systems or my internal systems are not 01:47:31.659 --> 01:47:33.479 producing testosterone naturally because I shut 01:47:33.479 --> 01:47:38.710 them off with TRT. dark place to be in from there 01:47:38.710 --> 01:47:43.189 but if done correctly and you're doing it on 01:47:43.189 --> 01:47:46.289 the medical supervision and you're keeping your 01:47:46.289 --> 01:47:48.510 cholesterol and your blood pressure and your 01:47:48.510 --> 01:47:51.350 ekg is looking healthy and you're feeling good 01:47:51.350 --> 01:47:53.510 and your doctor says there's no big red flags 01:47:53.510 --> 01:47:58.289 that's up to you so i i think we need to put 01:47:58.289 --> 01:47:59.770 a little bit more education out there saying 01:47:59.770 --> 01:48:02.029 here's all the pros here's all the cons from 01:48:02.029 --> 01:48:04.590 a physiological and a financial standpoint With 01:48:04.590 --> 01:48:07.289 that said, now make the best decision possible. 01:48:08.109 --> 01:48:11.130 And if you do, then hopefully you have a healthier 01:48:11.130 --> 01:48:15.229 career ahead of you. Beautiful. I'm so glad that 01:48:15.229 --> 01:48:18.550 you kind of relayed all of those things. When 01:48:18.550 --> 01:48:20.649 I had one of the very first guys on the show, 01:48:20.729 --> 01:48:24.550 Dr. Kurt Parsley, he was talking about, this 01:48:24.550 --> 01:48:27.130 was eight and a half years ago when we did the 01:48:27.130 --> 01:48:29.850 interview. He was talking about that scale that 01:48:29.850 --> 01:48:31.710 you mentioned. And it's funny now because I've 01:48:31.710 --> 01:48:33.909 seen the pendulum go from one side to the other. 01:48:34.590 --> 01:48:37.310 If either of us would go to a doctor, let's say 01:48:37.310 --> 01:48:41.050 10 years ago, and we sat down and we happened 01:48:41.050 --> 01:48:42.890 to even get blood work that looked for testosterone 01:48:42.890 --> 01:48:45.729 in the first place, which is a rarity, then they 01:48:45.729 --> 01:48:47.390 would be like, you're within normal limits. Because 01:48:47.390 --> 01:48:50.460 like you said, 250 to 950. You know, and then 01:48:50.460 --> 01:48:52.420 James, you're a firefighter. You're, let's say, 01:48:52.439 --> 01:48:55.600 you know, 28 years old and your blood, you know, 01:48:55.600 --> 01:48:58.260 your TRT is, you know, 333. You're fine. You're 01:48:58.260 --> 01:49:01.180 within normal limits. Well, then Kirk says, well, 01:49:01.239 --> 01:49:04.079 that scale was done in one of the Ivy League, 01:49:04.220 --> 01:49:06.699 you know, one of the small towns near the Ivy 01:49:06.699 --> 01:49:10.060 League schools. And he said, what people don't 01:49:10.060 --> 01:49:13.119 realize is the 250 was the 80 year old man that 01:49:13.119 --> 01:49:15.800 had one foot in the grave. And the 950 was the 01:49:15.800 --> 01:49:18.180 high school wrestler, quarterback, whatever it 01:49:18.180 --> 01:49:20.569 was. And then everything in between. So like 01:49:20.569 --> 01:49:22.989 you alluded to, the captain's T is a lot lower 01:49:22.989 --> 01:49:27.409 than the 21 -year -old's T. And so you have these 01:49:27.409 --> 01:49:30.189 tactical athletes that I would argue are probably 01:49:30.189 --> 01:49:34.729 more physically and mentally apt than the average 01:49:34.729 --> 01:49:37.590 person in their community going in and they're 01:49:37.590 --> 01:49:40.189 being told, oh, you're fine. Well, then now the 01:49:40.189 --> 01:49:41.789 pendulum swings the other way and you get all 01:49:41.789 --> 01:49:43.909 these men's clinics popping up everywhere. And 01:49:43.909 --> 01:49:46.149 now they walk in, 28 -year -old firefighter, 01:49:46.170 --> 01:49:49.090 like, oh, you're subpar, which is right. But 01:49:49.090 --> 01:49:52.390 what you need is TRT, not all the things that 01:49:52.390 --> 01:49:54.810 you explained. And let's talk about the side 01:49:54.810 --> 01:49:59.069 effects, including reproductive issues. And your 01:49:59.069 --> 01:50:01.470 balls will literally start shrinking, atrophying. 01:50:01.729 --> 01:50:04.470 Do you understand all these risks first? And 01:50:04.470 --> 01:50:06.590 so I think that this is a real, you know, a very 01:50:06.590 --> 01:50:08.869 predatory action on a lot of these companies 01:50:08.869 --> 01:50:11.090 where they're preying on a lot of these, you 01:50:11.090 --> 01:50:12.829 know, young people now, some of them being influenced 01:50:12.829 --> 01:50:15.630 by this new surge of bodybuilding again. And 01:50:15.630 --> 01:50:17.689 some of them arguably are first responders and 01:50:17.689 --> 01:50:19.689 doctors and nurses that are so damn tired, they 01:50:19.689 --> 01:50:22.949 just want their brain back. And what's exciting 01:50:22.949 --> 01:50:25.449 to me is, I mean, yeah, I've had veterans on 01:50:25.449 --> 01:50:28.869 the show, multiple, you know, TBIs and, you know, 01:50:28.869 --> 01:50:33.539 the, you know, the natural. production of testosterone 01:50:33.539 --> 01:50:35.319 just isn't working in their body, absolutely, 01:50:35.600 --> 01:50:38.819 TRT has an application for them. In the middle, 01:50:38.840 --> 01:50:41.100 after you've tried all holistic things, including 01:50:41.100 --> 01:50:43.640 getting your department to go to a 24 -72 so 01:50:43.640 --> 01:50:45.640 you're not breaking down your men and women's 01:50:45.640 --> 01:50:49.380 hormones, is the peptides. And this is what I 01:50:49.380 --> 01:50:51.140 found. There's a company, Transcend, that are 01:50:51.140 --> 01:50:53.420 an excellent company, veteran -owned. They've 01:50:53.420 --> 01:50:55.500 got a massive nonprofit arm as well, beautiful 01:50:55.500 --> 01:50:59.279 people there. But I was on one called Enclomophene. 01:50:59.739 --> 01:51:01.779 And all it does is help your body make a little 01:51:01.779 --> 01:51:05.000 bit more. So you're not going down the TRT. I 01:51:05.000 --> 01:51:07.340 actually have tapered off to not being on it 01:51:07.340 --> 01:51:10.180 anymore. It was almost like a bolus just to get 01:51:10.180 --> 01:51:11.699 back. Because it's funny you mentioned the lack 01:51:11.699 --> 01:51:15.060 of body composition or muscle growth. I was 168 01:51:15.060 --> 01:51:18.460 my whole career, 14 years. And I did CrossFit 01:51:18.460 --> 01:51:21.439 for basically all of those years. Didn't put 01:51:21.439 --> 01:51:24.260 on a pound of weight. When I went on there, I 01:51:24.260 --> 01:51:27.539 took the peptides recently, like a year and a 01:51:27.539 --> 01:51:30.850 half ago. put on to went up to about 180 i'm 01:51:30.850 --> 01:51:33.569 six foot tall don't look like i'm on any sort 01:51:33.569 --> 01:51:35.170 of supplements but i think it just helped kind 01:51:35.170 --> 01:51:37.310 of undo the damage of shift work and i've tapered 01:51:37.310 --> 01:51:39.989 back off and i feel great apart from the freaking 01:51:39.989 --> 01:51:42.750 flu that i got at the moment um so yeah so i 01:51:42.750 --> 01:51:44.770 think that's a under discussed middle ground 01:51:44.770 --> 01:51:47.270 is you've got all those holistic things but then 01:51:47.270 --> 01:51:50.289 the world of peptides can just help your body 01:51:50.289 --> 01:51:52.899 boost it up a little bit And then I would argue 01:51:52.899 --> 01:51:54.659 then taper back off when you've got your sleep 01:51:54.659 --> 01:51:56.539 regulated and your strength training more and 01:51:56.539 --> 01:51:59.680 those other ones are in place. But TRT isn't 01:51:59.680 --> 01:52:02.800 the only place that you have to go if you can't, 01:52:02.800 --> 01:52:05.880 you know, figure out the shift work. The peptides 01:52:05.880 --> 01:52:08.239 are a great kind of halfway point where you're 01:52:08.239 --> 01:52:10.699 not going to destroy your body, but it will just 01:52:10.699 --> 01:52:12.600 give you a little boost to get you back to where 01:52:12.600 --> 01:52:15.819 you need. The peptide conversation is something 01:52:15.819 --> 01:52:19.189 I know zero about. I get questions on that all 01:52:19.189 --> 01:52:20.789 the time at the different departments. And I 01:52:20.789 --> 01:52:24.010 have to say, I'm sorry. I don't know enough to 01:52:24.010 --> 01:52:27.609 speak on that. And I think that's on me. I got 01:52:27.609 --> 01:52:30.489 in that question so many times and I still haven't 01:52:30.489 --> 01:52:33.529 done the research on it. I got to put that higher 01:52:33.529 --> 01:52:36.189 on my to -do list. I'll send you, I mean, it's 01:52:36.189 --> 01:52:38.369 the founder of the company. So obviously he's 01:52:38.369 --> 01:52:40.229 talking about his company, but Ernie Colling 01:52:40.229 --> 01:52:44.140 is the CEO of Transcend. And I'll send you. that 01:52:44.140 --> 01:52:45.640 conversation. Cause it's great. And I just had 01:52:45.640 --> 01:52:50.060 their, their MD, who's also a neurosurgeon, Dr. 01:52:50.279 --> 01:52:52.340 Venya, another great conversation. So they do 01:52:52.340 --> 01:52:54.039 a really good job of just explaining what it 01:52:54.039 --> 01:52:56.079 is, all the, you know, and the TRT and everything 01:52:56.079 --> 01:52:58.880 else, the downsides, the upsides. So, and with 01:52:58.880 --> 01:53:01.439 them, they do like a full, full blood panel, 01:53:01.439 --> 01:53:03.920 and then you have a consultation and these are 01:53:03.920 --> 01:53:06.560 what are available to you. And like I said, I 01:53:06.560 --> 01:53:09.039 got to actually bring them down. I'm like, this 01:53:09.039 --> 01:53:11.199 is too much. Like I'm crying and my nipples hurt. 01:53:11.300 --> 01:53:13.260 I need to, I need to, and that's just from a 01:53:13.680 --> 01:53:17.680 from a peptide, but my natural T is 700 at 51 01:53:17.680 --> 01:53:20.319 years old. So it's still up there, but I was 01:53:20.319 --> 01:53:22.279 just wanting a little boost because I know 14 01:53:22.279 --> 01:53:24.579 years of not sleeping, of course, it's going 01:53:24.579 --> 01:53:27.119 to have some damage. So do I need to be, you 01:53:27.119 --> 01:53:29.619 know, nudge it up a little bit? But yeah, but 01:53:29.619 --> 01:53:31.739 anyway, I digressed. I'll send both of those 01:53:31.739 --> 01:53:33.939 to you. There'll be a great, great start for 01:53:33.939 --> 01:53:35.880 learning about that. They're from that one company, 01:53:35.960 --> 01:53:38.239 but I would argue it's the best company out there 01:53:38.239 --> 01:53:44.300 anyway. if i project what a wellness program 01:53:44.300 --> 01:53:46.180 would look like in the future for a fire service 01:53:46.180 --> 01:53:51.479 um and i'm again i'm projecting here is what 01:53:51.479 --> 01:53:53.859 you just mentioned right there is some sort of 01:53:53.859 --> 01:53:57.520 online program where let's say that company transcend 01:53:57.520 --> 01:54:00.220 goes to department x and says hey we're going 01:54:00.220 --> 01:54:03.359 to do a full blood screen on your guys's blood 01:54:03.359 --> 01:54:05.539 panel metabolic cardiovascular testosterone minerals 01:54:05.539 --> 01:54:08.300 deficiencies the whole thing and then from there 01:54:08.300 --> 01:54:12.390 is if you fall into this category if you're I 01:54:12.390 --> 01:54:13.930 don't know, your cholesterol is too high. You 01:54:13.930 --> 01:54:15.850 got to do X, Y, Z. If your glucose is doing this, 01:54:15.890 --> 01:54:19.270 do ABC. If you're deficient on this, here's our 01:54:19.270 --> 01:54:22.689 supplements. The one who's doing a very good 01:54:22.689 --> 01:54:24.369 job of that, they're not in the fire space. His 01:54:24.369 --> 01:54:27.649 name is Dan Gardner. He's a nutritionist for 01:54:27.649 --> 01:54:32.189 combat athletes, mostly in the UFC. And you look 01:54:32.189 --> 01:54:34.029 at what he's been doing and that's what he does 01:54:34.029 --> 01:54:36.229 with his fighters is he does a full panel and 01:54:36.229 --> 01:54:37.890 says, you're deficient in this. You're looking 01:54:37.890 --> 01:54:39.970 really good on that one. Let's add more of this 01:54:39.970 --> 01:54:41.329 into your diet. Let's take these supplements. 01:54:42.039 --> 01:54:45.159 Let's change your training like by these parameters. 01:54:45.380 --> 01:54:47.380 And that's how we get some prepped up for their 01:54:47.380 --> 01:54:51.699 fights. So if I project into the future, some 01:54:51.699 --> 01:54:54.300 tech savvy company is going to move into that 01:54:54.300 --> 01:54:56.439 space and they're going to kill it in the health 01:54:56.439 --> 01:54:59.539 and wellness space for fire. You mentioned supplements. 01:54:59.779 --> 01:55:02.680 We talked before we hit record. I'm a huge fan 01:55:02.680 --> 01:55:05.220 of Thorne. They actually have the ability to 01:55:05.220 --> 01:55:07.399 do blood work even with Thorne and show which 01:55:07.399 --> 01:55:11.399 kind of macro micronutrients that you're deficient 01:55:11.399 --> 01:55:14.779 on and what profiles work for you. But without 01:55:14.779 --> 01:55:16.640 loading the question, that's kind of my personal 01:55:16.640 --> 01:55:19.500 perspective. Talk to me about supplementation 01:55:19.500 --> 01:55:23.399 through your eyes. So supplementation, as the 01:55:23.399 --> 01:55:27.060 word says, it should be supplementing your daily 01:55:27.060 --> 01:55:32.359 diet. Now, because the diet of a firefighter, 01:55:32.359 --> 01:55:34.979 maybe through because they have a busy shift 01:55:34.979 --> 01:55:36.800 or they just don't want to make the decision 01:55:36.800 --> 01:55:41.020 themselves, it suffers. Then that's where supplementation 01:55:41.020 --> 01:55:43.960 is really coming in. The easiest one, I have 01:55:43.960 --> 01:55:45.880 like a list of maybe five supplements that every 01:55:45.880 --> 01:55:48.300 firefighter should be taking. And I don't have 01:55:48.300 --> 01:55:50.840 any sponsorship, so I'm not promoting any one 01:55:50.840 --> 01:55:53.899 specific brand or anything. But whey protein, 01:55:54.020 --> 01:55:57.260 whey protein. Get some sort of shake and flavor 01:55:57.260 --> 01:56:00.539 and brand that you like and add one or two scoops 01:56:00.539 --> 01:56:03.300 of protein to your day. And that will hopefully 01:56:03.300 --> 01:56:05.939 get you closer to your one gram of protein per 01:56:05.939 --> 01:56:09.279 pound of lean body mass goal that you're trying 01:56:09.279 --> 01:56:10.859 to get every day. Because one, that's going to 01:56:10.859 --> 01:56:13.260 help you. If you're on a weight loss program 01:56:13.260 --> 01:56:14.800 and you're trying to lose some fat, that will 01:56:14.800 --> 01:56:16.859 help you maintain as much muscle mass as possible. 01:56:17.479 --> 01:56:19.699 If you're trying to build some muscle, then a 01:56:19.699 --> 01:56:22.319 high protein diet is almost a non -negotiable. 01:56:23.320 --> 01:56:26.119 If you're trying to recover from just the beat 01:56:26.119 --> 01:56:28.659 down of the body, high protein is absolutely 01:56:28.659 --> 01:56:31.560 necessary. So I think protein is one of those 01:56:31.560 --> 01:56:33.020 topics that we discuss a lot more, one of the 01:56:33.020 --> 01:56:35.600 supplements that we discuss a lot more. So most 01:56:35.600 --> 01:56:37.720 of the guys, they have a decent understanding 01:56:37.720 --> 01:56:40.420 of it. So whey protein being number one on there. 01:56:40.479 --> 01:56:42.800 Creatine monohydrate, number two on that one. 01:56:42.920 --> 01:56:45.319 Creatine is a supplement that's been studied 01:56:45.319 --> 01:56:49.340 for two, three, four decades now. And the way 01:56:49.340 --> 01:56:51.739 it's been studied over those past decades is 01:56:51.739 --> 01:56:53.399 more from an athletic performance standpoint. 01:56:54.079 --> 01:56:57.020 There's been two different ways to take it. There's 01:56:57.020 --> 01:56:58.960 two options. One is not superior to any other 01:56:58.960 --> 01:57:02.140 one. The first option is loading it. You load 01:57:02.140 --> 01:57:05.180 it for about five to seven days, 20 to 30 grams 01:57:05.180 --> 01:57:07.100 per day for five to seven days. And then you 01:57:07.100 --> 01:57:10.239 taper off five grams per day indefinitely. Option 01:57:10.239 --> 01:57:13.000 number two is just five grams indefinitely. And 01:57:13.000 --> 01:57:15.359 once your muscles become saturated with that 01:57:15.359 --> 01:57:17.100 creatine, then you start getting all the benefits 01:57:17.100 --> 01:57:19.100 of it. like increased muscular strength, increased 01:57:19.100 --> 01:57:22.020 muscular power, and all those different characteristics 01:57:22.020 --> 01:57:23.960 that we see, that's a lot more important for 01:57:23.960 --> 01:57:27.199 the athletic population. Now, recently, over 01:57:27.199 --> 01:57:30.079 the past maybe four to five years, we're noticing 01:57:30.079 --> 01:57:33.399 that creatine is taking on a different space 01:57:33.399 --> 01:57:35.680 of research. Now, it's more cognitive benefits. 01:57:36.300 --> 01:57:38.840 Now, high levels of creatine can help you recover 01:57:38.840 --> 01:57:42.119 from concussions at a faster rate. Higher levels 01:57:42.119 --> 01:57:44.020 of creatine, this is like 20 to 30 grams, one 01:57:44.020 --> 01:57:47.829 dosage of it can help combat the cognitive, all 01:57:47.829 --> 01:57:49.989 the the cognitive reductions with sleep deprivation 01:57:49.989 --> 01:57:52.590 that's not done in firefighters but nonetheless 01:57:52.590 --> 01:57:55.689 it applies to the fire population so now we see 01:57:55.689 --> 01:57:58.510 creatine started to take shape and more how does 01:57:58.510 --> 01:58:00.649 preaching affect the psychology and the cognitive 01:58:00.649 --> 01:58:03.470 performance so number two put creatine on there 01:58:03.470 --> 01:58:06.909 number three is some sort of omega -3s or fish 01:58:06.909 --> 01:58:10.930 oils is because we do blood work for for the 01:58:10.930 --> 01:58:13.560 firefighters we work with And not all of them, 01:58:13.600 --> 01:58:16.760 but I would say maybe 25 % of them have low levels 01:58:16.760 --> 01:58:20.079 of HDL, high -density lipoprotein, which is that 01:58:20.079 --> 01:58:22.819 good cholesterol we want. And if they can get 01:58:22.819 --> 01:58:24.399 it above 40, it's even better. If they can get 01:58:24.399 --> 01:58:27.460 above 60, even better. The way you can do it 01:58:27.460 --> 01:58:29.399 through your natural diet is in consuming more 01:58:29.399 --> 01:58:31.319 of those healthy oils, your avocado oils, your 01:58:31.319 --> 01:58:33.779 olive oils, more nuts and seeds, your almonds, 01:58:33.880 --> 01:58:38.140 cashews, walnuts, your fatty fishes, your salmon, 01:58:38.300 --> 01:58:40.300 and your anchovies, sardines, mackerel, tuna, 01:58:40.359 --> 01:58:43.939 etc. But if you can't or you won't consume those 01:58:43.939 --> 01:58:47.840 items, then pay your 40 bucks for those jars 01:58:47.840 --> 01:58:50.659 of omega -3s. Take two of those per day and then 01:58:50.659 --> 01:58:52.680 you will see your HCLs begin to improve as well. 01:58:53.300 --> 01:58:55.420 The one that's starting to get a little bit more 01:58:55.420 --> 01:58:58.539 traction, ashwagandha. Ashwagandha, it's more 01:58:58.539 --> 01:59:01.500 of an eastern type ingredient and you're starting 01:59:01.500 --> 01:59:03.140 to make it, say it's way down to the western 01:59:03.140 --> 01:59:06.659 side. And when we started, when I say we, the 01:59:06.659 --> 01:59:08.180 scientific community, when we started researching 01:59:08.180 --> 01:59:10.420 it more, is we thought that it was going to help 01:59:10.420 --> 01:59:13.859 improve our testosterone and there was one study 01:59:13.859 --> 01:59:16.220 that showed an increase in testosterone in in 01:59:16.220 --> 01:59:20.060 humans but it was a very poorly controlled study 01:59:20.060 --> 01:59:23.560 so there's so much holes in their logic there 01:59:23.560 --> 01:59:26.220 so i would say it's a very poor study to base 01:59:26.220 --> 01:59:29.359 your decision off of but the better controlled 01:59:29.359 --> 01:59:31.800 studies of that for ganda is decreasing symptoms 01:59:31.800 --> 01:59:36.109 of anxiety and depression yeah for those who 01:59:36.109 --> 01:59:37.949 are having high levels of anxiety because of 01:59:37.949 --> 01:59:40.569 the job or whatever reason is supplementing with 01:59:40.569 --> 01:59:44.590 levels of ashwagandha and the dosage is it's 01:59:44.590 --> 01:59:46.729 a wide range of dosages from like 200 milligrams 01:59:46.729 --> 01:59:49.130 a day up to a thousand milligrams a day there's 01:59:49.130 --> 01:59:51.630 been studies on those that helps decrease symptoms 01:59:51.630 --> 01:59:54.890 anxiety depression and because it's so prevalent 01:59:54.890 --> 01:59:57.189 in the fire service i think this is one of the 01:59:57.189 --> 02:00:00.689 go -to's so that list would be the whey proteins 02:00:00.689 --> 02:00:03.689 the creatine monohydrate the omega -3s ashwagandha 02:00:04.360 --> 02:00:05.859 Caffeine, I wouldn't have to say it's a supplement. 02:00:05.960 --> 02:00:08.020 Very effective for the athletic population. I 02:00:08.020 --> 02:00:09.699 don't have to sell the firefighter on why it's 02:00:09.699 --> 02:00:13.380 good. The only thing on that one is if you truly 02:00:13.380 --> 02:00:16.359 enjoy your coffees and your carbonated drinks, 02:00:16.460 --> 02:00:18.600 especially in the later hours of the day, go 02:00:18.600 --> 02:00:23.460 for your decaf ones or go for your non -caffeinated, 02:00:23.479 --> 02:00:29.279 stimulant carbonated drinks. I crave carbonation, 02:00:29.380 --> 02:00:33.170 and especially later times of the day. I like 02:00:33.170 --> 02:00:35.810 something bubbly and I know I have sleep in two 02:00:35.810 --> 02:00:37.210 to three. I have to go to bed in a couple hours. 02:00:37.670 --> 02:00:39.890 I'll get something bubbly that doesn't have any 02:00:39.890 --> 02:00:41.670 caffeine or any other stimulus for that matter. 02:00:42.750 --> 02:00:45.310 So I think that's my five list of supplements 02:00:45.310 --> 02:00:49.010 that firefighters should consider taking. Beautiful. 02:00:49.229 --> 02:00:51.510 Yeah, I consumed a lot of coffee when I was a 02:00:51.510 --> 02:00:52.970 firefighter. I know they have an issue with the 02:00:52.970 --> 02:00:54.909 energy drinks now and, you know, guys literally 02:00:54.909 --> 02:00:57.210 passing out in bunker gear and getting rhabdo 02:00:57.210 --> 02:01:00.510 and all kinds of stuff. Definitely worth it. 02:01:00.630 --> 02:01:03.170 Ironically, one of my things, I've sworn off 02:01:03.170 --> 02:01:06.510 alcohol now and the non -alcoholic beers are 02:01:06.510 --> 02:01:08.529 really good. The wines are fucking awful, but 02:01:08.529 --> 02:01:12.050 the beers are good. So now I'll have that in 02:01:12.050 --> 02:01:14.409 the evening. So it's carbonated. Like you said, 02:01:14.489 --> 02:01:16.510 it tastes good. It's got a fraction of the calories 02:01:16.510 --> 02:01:18.770 of an actual beer as well. But you feel like 02:01:18.770 --> 02:01:21.069 you're having a beer without having a beer. Yeah, 02:01:21.109 --> 02:01:24.180 there's always little hacks for everything. Absolutely. 02:01:24.220 --> 02:01:26.140 And with the supplements, this isn't a sales 02:01:26.140 --> 02:01:28.720 pitch, but just to let people know, Thorne is 02:01:28.720 --> 02:01:30.300 the sponsor I use. It's funny you were talking 02:01:30.300 --> 02:01:32.180 about combat athletes. If you look at the UFC, 02:01:32.520 --> 02:01:35.159 Octagon, Thorne's name is on there. They're the 02:01:35.159 --> 02:01:38.399 NSF certified official sponsor for CrossFit, 02:01:38.460 --> 02:01:41.840 UFC. So they're legit as far as a supplement 02:01:41.840 --> 02:01:44.539 company. And they give everyone pretty much listening, 02:01:44.659 --> 02:01:46.819 whether you're a medical field like ER or whether 02:01:46.819 --> 02:01:48.800 you're a first responder or military. I think 02:01:48.800 --> 02:01:52.380 it's 25 % off now. Another supplement that I 02:01:52.380 --> 02:01:53.880 love, be interested to get your take, that I 02:01:53.880 --> 02:01:56.960 absolutely see the benefits of is collagen. And 02:01:56.960 --> 02:01:59.260 I use Bubz Collagen for that. Have you had much 02:01:59.260 --> 02:02:03.140 experience with that? So I've dabbled into the 02:02:03.140 --> 02:02:04.840 research on that one. I don't know enough to 02:02:04.840 --> 02:02:06.859 speak professionally or any level of intelligence 02:02:06.859 --> 02:02:12.100 on it. What I have read is the way that you take 02:02:12.100 --> 02:02:15.760 it, whether through ingestion versus a cream. 02:02:16.260 --> 02:02:20.319 And the two papers I read on it saying that collagen 02:02:20.319 --> 02:02:24.079 has it's more efficacious when you ingest it 02:02:24.079 --> 02:02:26.979 so whether it's in a powder pill as opposed to 02:02:26.979 --> 02:02:31.039 a cream and i started reading on it because of 02:02:31.039 --> 02:02:33.359 i'm starting to get some wrinkles on the side 02:02:33.359 --> 02:02:35.100 so i was like oh maybe i should try this that's 02:02:35.100 --> 02:02:37.840 as much as i know on collagen it's it's really 02:02:37.840 --> 02:02:40.760 good now my my skin you know i've had terrible 02:02:40.760 --> 02:02:42.520 skin since i was a kid and my dad looks like 02:02:42.520 --> 02:02:44.619 a sharp a so when it comes to wrinkles i'm screwed 02:02:44.619 --> 02:02:47.869 but from hair growth, nail growth, I've got dry 02:02:47.869 --> 02:02:51.210 skin. So just being less dry, gut health, joint 02:02:51.210 --> 02:02:54.890 health, I can see, absolutely see, see the difference. 02:02:54.970 --> 02:02:57.409 So yeah, I mean, it's, it's a great, great product. 02:02:57.470 --> 02:03:01.510 Bubz is the one I swear by another, um, uh, supplement 02:03:01.510 --> 02:03:03.689 company that's, I think they're NSF as well. 02:03:03.729 --> 02:03:06.550 Um, but also they, I think 10 % of all their 02:03:06.550 --> 02:03:08.510 sales go to a nonprofit as well. So they're a 02:03:08.510 --> 02:03:11.069 social business, but, um, yeah, great, great 02:03:11.069 --> 02:03:14.289 product. All right. Well, then I want to be mindful 02:03:14.289 --> 02:03:16.210 of your time. We'll discuss wearables another 02:03:16.210 --> 02:03:17.649 time because I know we've already passed the 02:03:17.649 --> 02:03:19.609 two hour mark. So a couple of quick questions 02:03:19.609 --> 02:03:23.010 to close out. Firstly, is there a book or are 02:03:23.010 --> 02:03:25.010 there books that you love to recommend? It can 02:03:25.010 --> 02:03:27.189 be related to our discussion today or completely 02:03:27.189 --> 02:03:45.260 unrelated. take on how we adjust to our problems 02:03:45.260 --> 02:03:49.020 as life adjusts, as life changes. And they have 02:03:49.020 --> 02:03:50.539 different characters on there. One character 02:03:50.539 --> 02:03:53.520 is grumpy and complaining about how somebody 02:03:53.520 --> 02:03:56.260 moved his cheese, meaning how life changed. And 02:03:56.260 --> 02:03:58.520 then the other one is trying to figure out how 02:03:58.520 --> 02:04:01.680 to adjust to it. So I've recommended that one 02:04:01.680 --> 02:04:04.699 so, so, so, so much. Another one that I've recommended 02:04:04.699 --> 02:04:08.079 a lot is called the E -Myth. E -Myth, and I'm 02:04:08.079 --> 02:04:11.050 assuming E stands for entrepreneurial. But there 02:04:11.050 --> 02:04:14.649 it talks about working in the business versus 02:04:14.649 --> 02:04:18.529 working on the business. So if I relate that 02:04:18.529 --> 02:04:24.090 over to what I'm doing here is by training, I'm 02:04:24.090 --> 02:04:28.270 academic. I read the research and I put it out 02:04:28.270 --> 02:04:31.909 there. But now I got to think about the consumer. 02:04:32.090 --> 02:04:34.909 How is the consumer looking at my product or 02:04:34.909 --> 02:04:37.590 my service? My product is being my post on this, 02:04:37.710 --> 02:04:43.100 my social media post. Am I optimizing this for 02:04:43.100 --> 02:04:45.500 the colors, for the graphics, for all this stuff? 02:04:45.680 --> 02:04:50.239 How do I make this so that my consumer can really 02:04:50.239 --> 02:04:53.779 enjoy it? And that's the two different ways of 02:04:53.779 --> 02:04:56.220 thinking on whatever your product, service, brand 02:04:56.220 --> 02:04:59.880 may be. I recommend that one a good amount. The 02:04:59.880 --> 02:05:01.960 pictures that you use, are those AI generated? 02:05:02.220 --> 02:05:07.520 They absolutely are. So they are using XAI. Brilliant. 02:05:07.640 --> 02:05:09.840 Yeah, they're very good. Thank you. Normally 02:05:09.840 --> 02:05:12.479 they've got Euro helmets when you ask AI to make 02:05:12.479 --> 02:05:15.100 a fire. Some of them do, and I have to prompt 02:05:15.100 --> 02:05:18.279 them, do not use those European helmets. Make 02:05:18.279 --> 02:05:21.340 it look like they're the US guys. I've tried 02:05:21.340 --> 02:05:24.800 using the TPT ones, and it does a very poor job 02:05:24.800 --> 02:05:28.560 of animation, at least when I tried it. But yeah, 02:05:28.619 --> 02:05:31.739 definitely AI on that one. All right. Well, then 02:05:31.739 --> 02:05:35.520 same question, but films and documentaries. I'm 02:05:35.520 --> 02:05:38.220 a huge Christopher Nolan fan. Anything Christopher 02:05:38.220 --> 02:05:40.340 Nolan, anything Martin Scorsese. I sound like 02:05:40.340 --> 02:05:42.779 a regular guy at this point. Anything Martin 02:05:42.779 --> 02:05:47.380 Scorsese and Christopher Nolan, I'm for it. The 02:05:47.380 --> 02:05:49.739 one movies that I can watch over and over and 02:05:49.739 --> 02:05:52.920 over again, Dark Knight, the one with the Joker. 02:05:53.319 --> 02:05:56.800 Fantastic movie. Fun fact on this one is I took 02:05:56.800 --> 02:05:59.140 a college course on the philosophy of Batman 02:05:59.140 --> 02:06:02.060 and Joker. I invested hundreds of dollars to 02:06:02.060 --> 02:06:03.380 take this college course to just learn another 02:06:03.380 --> 02:06:07.420 philosophy. It's the other one. I can watch Godfather 02:06:07.420 --> 02:06:09.460 1 and 2 over and over again. Again, I sound like 02:06:09.460 --> 02:06:12.479 a typical guy. I love Inception. Inception's 02:06:12.479 --> 02:06:17.319 awesome. Interstellar was amazing as well. Documentaries. 02:06:17.319 --> 02:06:18.899 I don't watch so many documentaries. I don't 02:06:18.899 --> 02:06:22.079 watch any documentaries. You know what's interesting 02:06:22.079 --> 02:06:25.420 about Godfather? I wrote a book last year and 02:06:25.420 --> 02:06:28.000 I'm writing the screenplay now. Just finished 02:06:28.000 --> 02:06:30.680 the pilot. But before I did, I was thinking, 02:06:30.760 --> 02:06:33.750 well, I'll get someone to write the script. And 02:06:33.750 --> 02:06:36.409 my friend who's an author and a screenwriter 02:06:36.409 --> 02:06:40.329 himself, who's already created films, said, you 02:06:40.329 --> 02:06:42.449 need to write it yourself. So then I'm like, 02:06:42.529 --> 02:06:44.250 all right, well, let me buy a book on how to 02:06:44.250 --> 02:06:46.649 write screenplays. But he was telling me that 02:06:46.649 --> 02:06:51.350 the guy that wrote the actual Godfather story, 02:06:51.609 --> 02:06:55.909 that wrote the script, he just wrote the script. 02:06:55.989 --> 02:06:57.189 That was it. He just said, I'm just going to 02:06:57.189 --> 02:06:59.600 do it the way I'm going to do it. Then the studio 02:06:59.600 --> 02:07:01.260 said to him, hey, we want to make a sequel to 02:07:01.260 --> 02:07:03.039 this. So he's like, well, shit, I better learn 02:07:03.039 --> 02:07:05.720 how to write scripts now then. So he goes and 02:07:05.720 --> 02:07:07.340 buys a book. I think it's the same one I bought. 02:07:07.739 --> 02:07:10.960 And at the beginning, they give an example of 02:07:10.960 --> 02:07:13.359 like a really well -written script. And it's 02:07:13.359 --> 02:07:17.020 The Godfather. So basically, he was like, well, 02:07:17.119 --> 02:07:19.359 I guess I don't need to read a book on writing 02:07:19.359 --> 02:07:22.039 scripts. So the irony was, you know, again, kind 02:07:22.039 --> 02:07:24.899 of getting outside the box and believing in your 02:07:24.899 --> 02:07:27.640 own creativity. The Godfather script was written. 02:07:28.230 --> 02:07:29.810 differently than a lot of scripts and it was 02:07:29.810 --> 02:07:31.930 ended up you know hailed as one of the best scripts 02:07:31.930 --> 02:07:35.069 in hollywood it's a fantastic movie absolutely 02:07:35.069 --> 02:07:38.189 all right well then next question is there a 02:07:38.189 --> 02:07:40.250 person that you recommend to come on this podcast 02:07:40.250 --> 02:07:43.369 as a guest to speak to the first responders military 02:07:43.369 --> 02:07:46.069 and associated professions of the world all my 02:07:46.069 --> 02:07:48.550 colleagues my colleagues are phenomenal i've 02:07:48.550 --> 02:07:50.250 learned so much from them like some of the stuff 02:07:50.250 --> 02:07:52.510 that i've said today i take it from my colleagues 02:07:52.510 --> 02:07:54.430 like when i say the gym and a job or three kids 02:07:54.430 --> 02:07:57.170 under five like those terms are well verbatim 02:07:57.529 --> 02:07:59.270 what my colleagues say. And I think you know 02:07:59.270 --> 02:08:01.649 them already. One of them, Jennifer Maloney, 02:08:01.789 --> 02:08:05.149 I'm sure you've worked with her many times. She's 02:08:05.149 --> 02:08:08.130 more of an OG in our program. Robin Leafblad, 02:08:08.170 --> 02:08:11.930 she's amazing. She's very intelligent. And we 02:08:11.930 --> 02:08:16.109 have a new faculty who's doubling down on the 02:08:16.109 --> 02:08:18.310 mental health side of the first responders. And 02:08:18.310 --> 02:08:21.270 it's Tomas Rubalcaba. He's maybe third, fourth 02:08:21.270 --> 02:08:25.840 year PhD program now. Yeah, they're... Fantastic, 02:08:25.979 --> 02:08:27.899 fantastic. They're extremely intelligent, very 02:08:27.899 --> 02:08:30.600 knowledgeable. One individual that I've started 02:08:30.600 --> 02:08:34.020 to talk to a little bit more, he is a colleague 02:08:34.020 --> 02:08:36.340 of mine in the PhD program. He spent maybe a 02:08:36.340 --> 02:08:40.140 decade working with military, more on the mental 02:08:40.140 --> 02:08:43.500 health space. And he left military. He's now 02:08:43.500 --> 02:08:46.539 working with us. And his name is James Branham. 02:08:47.380 --> 02:08:50.260 Very smart dude as well. So I can connect you 02:08:50.260 --> 02:08:52.539 to those. Thank you. Yeah, I have to definitely 02:08:52.539 --> 02:08:54.100 work through all of them because I don't think 02:08:54.100 --> 02:08:55.939 I've even spoken to Jennifer before, if I'm not 02:08:55.939 --> 02:08:58.180 mistaken. Yeah, she's been with the program for, 02:08:58.239 --> 02:09:01.800 I don't know, I'm assuming 20 years. Sorry, Jen, 02:09:01.899 --> 02:09:03.859 if you're listening. I don't know how long it's 02:09:03.859 --> 02:09:05.640 been. I'm going to speculate here. Well, maybe 02:09:05.640 --> 02:09:07.420 I have. Maybe back when I was wearing the uniform 02:09:07.420 --> 02:09:09.800 in Anaheim. All right. Well, then the very last 02:09:09.800 --> 02:09:11.319 question before we make sure where people can 02:09:11.319 --> 02:09:14.479 find you and your work, what do you do to decompress? 02:09:15.239 --> 02:09:17.220 What do I do to decompress? A lot of weightlifting. 02:09:17.680 --> 02:09:20.680 I've gotten into jujitsu. Uh, so those are my 02:09:20.680 --> 02:09:24.140 go -to decompress and stuff is one way lifting 02:09:24.140 --> 02:09:25.739 a lot of Jiu Jitsu. And I like to work on my 02:09:25.739 --> 02:09:27.319 house a lot. Like right now, this used to be 02:09:27.319 --> 02:09:29.800 my office is to be really well furnished and 02:09:29.800 --> 02:09:33.739 it is currently under a lot of renovation. Um, 02:09:33.939 --> 02:09:39.180 so I'll be renting this place out, um, and finding 02:09:39.180 --> 02:09:43.039 another place to live in. So that's usually how 02:09:43.039 --> 02:09:46.649 I spend my time now that I'm out of school. Absolutely. 02:09:46.750 --> 02:09:48.989 All right. Well, then for people listening, where 02:09:48.989 --> 02:09:51.350 are the best places to follow you, reach out, 02:09:51.409 --> 02:09:55.689 et cetera, online or on social media? The only 02:09:55.689 --> 02:09:57.829 social media that I'm active on is going to be 02:09:57.829 --> 02:10:00.630 Instagram. It's going to be Dr. Daniel Higuera. 02:10:00.729 --> 02:10:03.949 So D -R dot Daniel, D -A -N -I -E -L. My last 02:10:03.949 --> 02:10:08.130 name, Higuera, H -I -G -U -E -R -A. I recently 02:10:08.130 --> 02:10:11.069 logged on to LinkedIn and maybe two months since 02:10:11.069 --> 02:10:13.890 I've been on there. And I've had so many requests 02:10:13.890 --> 02:10:16.300 and messages. Like, where did this come from? 02:10:16.760 --> 02:10:20.180 And I'm going to assume it was you because then 02:10:20.180 --> 02:10:22.100 I said, I was mentioned in one of your posts. 02:10:24.199 --> 02:10:27.439 And yeah, so I started responding to a lot of 02:10:27.439 --> 02:10:30.340 the messages on LinkedIn. Some companies started 02:10:30.340 --> 02:10:33.800 reaching out to me and someone said they want 02:10:33.800 --> 02:10:35.500 to partner for research studies. And yeah, so 02:10:35.500 --> 02:10:37.579 although I have LinkedIn, I'm not too active 02:10:37.579 --> 02:10:39.119 on it. If you want to reach me, reach me on Instagram, 02:10:39.319 --> 02:10:42.590 Dr. Daniel Aguirre. Beautiful. Well, I want to 02:10:42.590 --> 02:10:45.310 thank you so much. When I first saw whichever 02:10:45.310 --> 02:10:47.649 slide it was that first came across my radar 02:10:47.649 --> 02:10:51.789 by chance, I was like, okay, this is exactly 02:10:51.789 --> 02:10:53.850 what we've been talking about. As you said, you 02:10:53.850 --> 02:10:56.569 do present it so well. Every slide is eye -catching 02:10:56.569 --> 02:10:59.069 and there's information on there. And then in 02:10:59.069 --> 02:11:01.770 the text, you're talking about the study and 02:11:01.770 --> 02:11:04.029 then the limitations of the study. So it really 02:11:04.029 --> 02:11:07.130 is kind of pulling people in. So your lens coming 02:11:07.130 --> 02:11:09.850 from the sporting background as an athlete, as 02:11:09.850 --> 02:11:11.609 a coach, and then working with this population, 02:11:11.609 --> 02:11:15.130 I think is so, so important. So I want to thank 02:11:15.130 --> 02:11:17.090 you so much for being so generous with your time 02:11:17.090 --> 02:11:19.069 and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today. 02:11:19.489 --> 02:11:20.649 Thank you for having me, James.