This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran
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on this show. Well, since then I have actually
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this company is an altruistic arm called the
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808 with the founder, Ernie Colling. or go to
transcendcompany .com. This episode is sponsored
by TeamBuildr, yet another company that's doing
great things for the first responder community.
As a strength and conditioning coach myself,
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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you
think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome
to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,
my name is James Gearing and this week it is
my absolute honor to welcome on the show retired
FDNY firefighter, fitness trainer, and chef Joe
Bonanno. Now in this conversation we discuss
a host of topics from his journey into the fire
service, fitness training, nutrition, The sequence
of events that sent him not only into creating
a firehouse cookbook, but ultimately being a
TV personality as a chef. His transition out.
His powerful 9 -11 story. The community forged
on 9 -12. And so much more. Now before we get
to this incredible conversation, as I say every
week, please just take a moment. Go to whichever
app you listen to this on. Subscribe to the show.
Leave feedback and leave a rating. Every single
five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,
therefore making it easier for others to find.
And this is a free library of well over 1 ,000
episodes now. So all I ask in return is that
you help share these incredible men and women's
stories so I can get them to every single person
on planet Earth who needs to hear them. So that
being said, I introduce to you... Joe Bonanno.
Enjoy. Well, Joe, I want to start by saying thank
you so much for taking the time and coming on
the Behind the Shield podcast today. No, I want
to thank you. And I love the title of your show,
Behind the Shield, because there's a lot to that.
Absolutely. Well, first question, where on planet
Earth are we finding you today? I'm in Safety
Harbor, Florida, which is in the Tampa St. Pete
area. Retired out of New York. And after many
frozen winters, I decided, you know, I first,
after 9 -11, I retired and then I... I had a
place here and they call it a snowbird. You spend
half the year in New York, half in Florida. And
then after so many years, I'm like, you know,
why am I maintaining a house up there and a house
here? I just committed to Florida. And then,
you know, with the world the way it is with cell
phone and text, you can talk to your family and
friends just as easy as if you were there. So
I decided to move here permanently. So Safety
Harbor, Florida, Tampa, St. Pete area. So my
wife. was an optician she's just about to finish
as an optometrist now as a doctor but for the
longest time that's what she was doing and every
two years she had to recertify get her continuing
education and so they did it in the safety harbor
hotel there right on the on the oh yeah yeah
i'm right down it's a quarter a mile from my
house yep yeah so i love we love it there such
a beautiful community really seems to be a tight
-knit community what was it that drove you to
that specific place in florida A friend of mine,
I was thinking about retiring as my 20. We have
a 20 -year retirement. I'd already had 20 years
on, so I was over time already. You don't have
to retire at 20 years, but you can. You have
to retire at 65. I wasn't anywhere close to that.
But I had 20, and you just start thinking about
it. Like, you know, where would I go? Do I want
to stay here? I already spent so many years in
New York. And a friend of mine that was a police
officer, he was coming down to visit his parents
who lived in the next town over, which is Oldsmore.
And he was dating some girl at the time. They
broke up. So he had the extra ticket. He goes,
hey, you want to come with me? You know, hang
out with my parents. I go, yeah, sure. I'll go
to Florida in the middle of winter. Why not?
And then once I got here, I was talking to his
father about what it was like to live here. They
were from New York originally, too. And I asked
him, you know, I like the Norman Rockwell small
town with the main street and the library and
the firehouse. So Oldsmore was where he lived.
That was more like strip malls and stuff. And
I asked his father. You know, where's a town
around here that's like a little bit of Norman
Rockwell? You know, you walk down Main Street
and you got the library, the post office and
the firehouse. And he says, you ought to check
out Safety Harbor. So I said, get in the car,
let's go. So we got in the car with me. We went
down here. And at the time, just to reflect on
the real estate prices, that was probably 2003
or 2002, right after 9 -11. And once I went down
Main Street, I go, this is right out of Norman
Rockwell. And really the thing that got me is
I pulled over and you know those boxes on the
corner that they have the pamphlets in for real
estate? Yes. Or newspapers. I said, let me grab
one of them. And I grabbed one of them and I
saw two bedroom, two bath, fireplace, condo,
$75 ,000. That's a down payment in New York.
And I go, $75 ,000, the total price. I go, that's
it. Call the real estate. They took me to a place
and that was it. I said, okay, I'm all in. And
that's how I ended up here. Yeah, it's beautiful.
And I love it. It's a beautiful father country.
Yeah. All right. Well, then let's start the very
beginning of your timeline then. So tell me where
you were born and tell me a little bit about
your family dynamic, what your parents did, how
many siblings. Oh, terrific. Terrific question.
Born in the Bronx. Went to Catholic school in
the Bronx. My father was a New York City firefighter.
He worked in the South Bronx during what they
call the war years in the 70s. And so that was
the beginning of, you know, and then the Bronx
started to get a little, the neighborhood started
to get not so nice. And then, you know, he wanted
the American dream. We lived in a small house
attached on both sides with a little tiny backyard.
And, you know, every fireman at that time were
moving, you know. more prop, you know, for his
family. We had, he had three or four kids by
that time and he wanted to move out to Long Island,
bigger house, backyard, all that kind of stuff.
I hated it. I loved the city. I loved living
in the Bronx. I thought it was great. And when
he came home one day and said, you know, we're
moving to Lindenhurst. And I'm like, Lindenhurst,
what's a Lindenhurst? And that was out on Long
Island. And I'm like, I actually, me and my buddies
took a subway and then a Long Island railroad
just to see what it looked like. And I hated
it. I hated it. I didn't want to leave the Bronx.
But in the summer of 69, my father packed up
the truck and we looked like the Beverly Hillbillies.
And we moved out to Lindenhurst, Long Island.
And then I had to had to adapt to living out
there. And, you know, it wasn't terrible. It
wasn't terrible. But I just when you're born
and raised in the city and that's what you know,
you know, that that's really what you wanted
to do. So and then, you know, I had four kids
at the time. You know, three boys and a girl.
Relatives were out there and tried to have the
best life we could out there. And we did pretty
good. What was some of the fires you remember
your dad telling you about? Because, I mean,
the war years of those, you know, boroughs at
that time are revered, I think, even to this
day in the fire service. Oh, and then, yeah,
the New York Fire Service in the war years. And
I worked part of those war years myself. So I
got a taste, a little taste of it as the city
started to turn around with Giuliani actually
turned the city around a little bit. But to be
honest with you, you know, he came home from
work and he really never. I guess it's like somebody
that was a war veteran. They don't want to talk
about it only among their clique of friends.
And here and there. Yeah, he would say he would
mention something about it. But the one thing
I distinctly remember, two things about it, which
really led me to take the fire service. Not that
he's he's to come home. He used to smell like
a fireplace. I mean, it was in his hair. It was
in his skin. It was in his, you know, and plus
where he worked was the South Bronx in the height
of the in the one of the busiest companies in
the city. There was a book called Report from
Engine Company 82 years ago. He was the next
firehouse next to that one. So they were just
as busy as Report from Engine 82. He knew all
those guys. He worked with them, but he rarely
talked about it. But the one thing kind of convinced
me a little bit as I was getting I was going
to college. I was starting to get. you know,
leaving college. And I just remember him, they
would have these firehouse parties and picnics
and stuff. And I, you know, some of my other
friends' parents that I would meet in whatever
job they have, they weren't that happy about
it. You know, they were like, oh my God, I got
to commute. The boss is a pain in the neck. And
they just hired a new guy and they promoted him
ahead of me and all this stuff that goes on with
corporate and... And then we would go to like
a firehouse party with all of these men. And
one was funnier than the next. They were all
like your favorite uncle, favorite funny uncle,
hysterically funny, all big, handsome, strong
guys. And I just remember looking at that going,
wow, there must be something to this. These guys
are just laughing and having so much fun and
not complaining about their jobs and stuff like
that. And then he. Took me to the firehouse a
couple of times, which is 88 Engine in the Bronx.
Any firefighters that first respond to listen
and they'll know that company. 88 Engine and
38 Truck in the Bronx. And I do remember him
taking me to the firehouse and just look at,
you know, I was eight years old and I'm watching
these men that are like, I mean, they were just,
they seemed gigantic to me. And they were all
handsome and had deep voices and just the tip.
Toxic masculinity to the 10th degree, actually,
which was OK. And I was like, wow. So I just
took that all in. And then I unfortunately, me
and my father used to butt heads a lot. You know,
I was your typical arrogant, spoiled teenager.
And, you know, I was I was not I did not want
to be a fireman. I wanted to be everything but
that opposite of what he did. But I'll never
forget when they started listing the test. the
test was available. He said, listen, you know,
he was pretty, he was pretty strict. He was a
golden gloves boxer actually. And he said to
me, he goes, listen, you don't have to take the
job, but you're taking the test. You can turn
it down when it comes up, but don't be an idiot.
Take the, I don't want to be a fireman like you,
you know, you know, some people want to be exactly
like their father. And if you battle with them,
you want to be the opposite, but you don't want
to cut your nose off to spite your face. So I
said, you know what? I'll train for it and I'll
take it. I was just getting out of college at
the time too. And I went on a couple of interviews
and I remember on the interview, the guy saying
to me, well, you know, the first week you get
five days vacation, you know, two sick days.
And then I, he took me around to this corporate
type job and nobody looked happy. And I'm like
five days vacation after a year. And he goes,
yeah, if you put five years in, then you get
two weeks. And the fire department actually started
with. five weeks vacation the first year. And
I was like, wow, okay, so there's that. The guy
seemed like a lot of fun. I don't know about
the running into burning buildings thing. I never
did that. I mean, I was in the military too.
I was in the Air Force. So I was familiar with
basic training and what that's all about. And
I didn't want to go through that again. I didn't
want to go through paramilitary basic training
uniforms. Yes, sir, no, sir. And the thing that
really took me over the top is I wanted to train.
I was in really good shape at the time. I wanted
to train specifically to pass the physical and
do well on it and get a good list number. While
I was there, I met a fellow friend of mine who,
Tom Pellegrino is his name. He wanted to be a
New York City farmer since he came out of the
womb. So he knew everything about it. And he
was telling me, I met him at the, you know. You
had to throw a 120 -pound dummy over your shoulder,
run up a flight of stairs, come down, and everything
was timed. And he was really skinny, and he couldn't
do it. He was fumbling with it. I was in great
shape at the time. I don't want to brag, but
I threw the dummy over my shoulder, up and down
the stairs, and threw it down like it was nothing.
And he said to me, you've got to help me. I've
been wanting to be a fireman. I get choked up.
I wanted to be a fireman since I was a little
kid, and I want this job so bad, but I'm only
125 pounds. I can't do the dummy thing. Can you
show me how you just did that? So we got to be
friends. And, you know, I helped him work out
and whatever. And he scored well, I scored well.
And we wound up being in the same probationary
firing class together. But the thing that took
me over the top is that he knew everything about
it. So did my father. But I was such a thick
head, I didn't want to talk to him about it.
But he said to me, and I always use this expression
to the day, because, you know, when you're 23
years old and somebody says to you, you know,
at 45, you could get a pension. I didn't even
know what a pension was, first of all. And I'm
like, pension, what's that? He goes, you know,
you work 20 years, you get half pay and medical
and dental. But he knew everything about it.
I'm like, how could you live on half pay if you
can't live on full pay? He goes, no, with the
taxes and the social security, you wind up with
the same take home pay. It just was inconceivable
to me. And then he says, and it's fun, Joe, these
guys are great. Don't. And I says, Tom, I was
in the military. I don't want to do the yes or
no, sir. Press my unit. He goes, Joe. It's everything
but that. It's a giant frat house with no disrespect
to the fire department because New York fire
department's the premier of them all. But as
far as rules go, they were all out the window
because they were so busy, which is what I liked.
It was more like I didn't want to do the yes
or no sort of thing. So we both got the same
list number. We went to the training academy
to get once I got in the training academy. That
was it. I said, wow, this is. This is pretty
damn nice and pretty fun and great. And the other
thing was the people. I was meeting the same
people that my father was friends with. But now
they're all in their mid -20s, every one of them.
And just as much fun and one guy funnier than
the next. Just it attracts characters for some
reason. And they certainly were. And yeah, so
then I got assigned to Engine 319, which is a
pretty slow firehouse in a rural section, not
rural, but quiet section of Queens. But they
were so the certain areas of Brooklyn and the
Bronx and Manhattan was so busy that to give
those guys a break every third night, we would
go to East New York, Brooklyn. They would come
by us to have a quiet night. So every third night
I did get to have. what my father experienced
the war years and it was everything like that
i mean the area i was assigned in queens it was
very quiet and nice neighborhood uh but when
we went to east new york the minute we got into
you could smell it the whole place smelled like
fire and the minute we it was crazy to go from
that quietness to the minute we would punch the
computer that were online engine 332 respond
to second alarm on the you know on livonia And
we'd go to that one. We'd barely get that one
out. And as soon as we got back to quarters,
available again, oh, engine 332, respond to car
fire. We'd go to that one. While we were out,
sometimes at a car fire, they would say, engine
332, they're short at a second alarm. Stop putting
the car fire out, roll up your hoses, go to assist
them. And what, just leave the car burning? Yeah,
leave the car burning, just go to the next. It
was that crazy. But for a person that's a fireman,
that's what you want. You don't want to be quiet.
And when I say this, no disrespect to people
in smaller and rural communities. But often I'll
pass the Safety Harbor Fire Department, and those
guys have the similar training that we have.
They just don't have the work. They call it the
work. And I'm sure they're sitting there saying,
geez, I wish the supermarket would go up in flames
so we could go do our job, break doors down,
break windows, save people. I mean, that's what
you're trained to do and that's what you want
to do. So I got to do it on a grand scale. When
you look back, what was it that was causing so
much fire in the war years? I think a lot of
it had to do with the political administration
at the time. They weren't. I don't know, they
reduced the manpower in the fire department.
I don't think they were using the words defund
the police, but there was a tremendous amount
of crime. And I think what started to happen
was the amount of crime in a lot of these, they
used to call them tenements, apartment buildings
and stuff like that. The landlords were like,
you know, these people aren't paying the rent
anymore. We can't sell the building because the
area's gone to hell. It's so much crime. Our
only other alternative is Austin. So they would
just torch these buildings like crazy. And the
same thing with the cars. There was so much car
theft going on for parts, for the car, you know.
It really was the crime, but the crime led to
the areas going downhill and the landlords can't
rent them. They can't rent anymore. Now they
can't sell the building. They have insurance.
And they just hired somebody to torch the buildings.
And that was part of it. And now as, you know,
it started to become cumulative. Three houses
on the block go on fire. Anybody else would say,
like, I don't even want to try to sell it. I
just might as well just torch it or abandon it.
And if it stays abandoned long enough, vagrants
get in there, drugs, light the places on fire.
And it just was like, I mean, at one time, it's
unheard of, but we were doing 25 to 30 runs a
night. And three or four fires and two or three
car fires. And you just go home. And now I know
why my father smelled like a fireplace. I remember
I was seeing some girl at the time and I took
a shower, of course, and I washed it. But once
that smoke is in your skin and your hair and
I went out with her and she goes, what kind of
cologne is that? It smells like smoke. I go,
it's not cologne. She goes, didn't you? I go,
yeah, of course I took a shower, but it gets
in your pores, you know? So. Eau de Bombero.
Eau de Bombero. I like that. I might take that.
That's a good one. Eau de Bombero. It's so interesting
when you kind of ask people that were boots on
the ground, you know, in certain parts of our
history or even now, and you actually get this
firsthand experience. that there's a term false
economy and it ties in so closely to so many
different areas so let's take the criticism of
the police at the moment you know they're aggressive
and the way they're dressed they look like they're
going to war and no one's saying no one's asking
the question well why are our streets so dangerous
that our cops have to dress like this that our
cops are getting murdered almost every single
day and it's the same with the war years in new
york you know you reverse engineer well why were
there so many fires And then you learn about
the backstory and how many firefighters were
killed from an arson fire that was caused through
desperation and poverty and addiction. So when
you peel back the onion, you realize that a lot
of these incidences that we've had throughout
history, including the one side great experience
that you had as a firefighter with all these
fires, but also obviously arguably putting a
lot of firefighter lives in danger, was also
ultimately preventable through... the politics
side, if they'd be making proactive choices to
actually invest in their community rather than
the desperation that ultimately resulted. Yeah.
And my father was very political. He was always
on the radio with the administration and talk
shows and trying to talk about the cutting manpower
and cutting services. And it just leads to exactly
what was going on. It's so obvious. And then,
you know, Giuliani. No matter what you think
of him, he did come in and turn things completely
around. What about the crack epidemic? What was
that like through your eyes? Because I know that
was a massive problem in New York City. Well,
there was always drugs. That always went on.
I mean, that was going on in the 60s. And, you
know, people, as much as they say what's going
on today, you know, go back to 1969. It was LSD,
Quaaludes, the hippie movement, drugs, crime.
Kent State, you know, so it seems like things
go through cycles. It gets really bad. Then you
get a new policy and administration and they
try to clean it up a little bit. Now they vote
new people in. They do. If they're not on board
with it, they let things start to deteriorate.
And then it gets bad and then it gets good again.
And it just does this. And it's been going on
since, you know, I actually think since the beginning
of time, it's not that much different. As much
as people say, look what's going on in this world
right now. i say go back to 1969 all the parents
are like i'm not having kids there's drugs and
lsd and you know so crack in itself yeah it was
a bad thing but so was lsd in 1969 and there
were riots and there was protests against the
war and just all of that was going on i think
we were too young to even realize it absolutely
well when when you look back at this incredible
band of brothers in this particular circumstance
that you witnessed with your father's generation
in FDNY, what elements of that do we need to
reinforce to refine that part? I mean, I think
there is truly a brotherhood and sisterhood in
our profession, but there are elements of it
that have, I think, challenged that as well,
whether it's just simply geography that people
can't afford to live where they work anymore,
all the way through to, you know, lowering of
standards and some other areas. When you kind
of look back and you've got this multi -generational
lens, how can we kind of refine some of the things
that created such happiness and camaraderie in
that generation? I still believe that the camaraderie
and stuff exists, but whatever's going on in
the world right now without getting too political
by relaxing standards creates resentment. Listen,
I have nothing against women being firefighters.
Some of them are terrific firefighters, and maybe
they always wanted to be a firefighter. But to
relax the standards in a job that could cost
you your life is – and it's not just that. Because
of the camaraderie and, like you said, band of
brothers and let's say band of sisters too, in
order for that person – you're going to be judged
when you're a new person anyway. But if you come
in with – you relax the standards to let this
person in, there's going to be more resentment.
And, you know, so in other words, why wouldn't
you, here's the test. It should be merit -based
period. So, you know, if I have to do eight pull
-ups to get on the job and somebody right next
to me only has to do one only because she's a
female, I don't believe that that's right. And
especially in a job where pull -ups matter or
strength matters. So because it's politically
correct to let her in, and again, there are women
that can do, I know somebody that can do eight
pull -ups. God bless her. She should be on the
fire department if that's what she wants to do,
and she takes the same test I do. But to relax
the standards for race, for gender, for stuff
like that, it creates resentment towards, you
know, the people that, you know, when they come
in, you know, you're the newbie and you're going
to be judged anyway. Now you come in and you
say, hey, that's the... guy or a girl that got
here because uh they you know they they didn't
get the same physical we did and and you know
then like you said it's multi -generational a
lot of these sons got passed up like if you're
list number 1001 and you're next to be hired
and all of a sudden you said you got a letter
you're not getting hired and you find out somebody
else got hired pushed you pushed me back i was
more qualified for them so that that's so And
again, I don't know what the fire service can
do to correct that. But I just don't believe
in relaxing the standards in a job that's your
life depends on your physical ability as well
as your mental ability. Yeah, no, I agree completely.
And it's funny because of all the professions,
ours is so easy to test fairly. If you do a sequence
of events that are all fire ground based, so
you use actual hose. an inch and three quarter.
You use a dummy that would be the average person.
You carry tools. You climb stairs with a bundle
on your shoulder. No one can say that's unfair.
It doesn't matter who's inside that bunker gear,
male, female, gay, straight, black, white, whatever.
You can or you can't. And where I've seen the
lowering of the bar, you're now insulting all
the people of all the different backgrounds and
genders and et cetera. who have risen to that
bar it's an insult to them because they have
risen up there the answer i think is the mentorship
program because there were underserved groups
that absolutely there was resistance to them
getting in in certain departments at certain
times in our history so you go into those groups
you put mentorship programs in you challenge
those young recruits to rise up you give them
the tools to actually help them rise up now you
get the best firefighters whether they're female
whether they're you know You want a bunch of
British firefighters. You have to go into the
British community. But you don't give us all
a job. You say, hey, here's the bar. We challenge
you to meet it. So this is what's so sad is there
was this kind of, you know, like scooping mentality.
Just go get me 100 of this particular description
rather than where are we missing the opportunity
for some great, great firefighters. Go into those
communities, mentor them. and challenge the ones
that can meet the bar and then bring them in.
They're going to be phenomenal firefighters then.
Yeah, and the New York Fire Department did do
that. I mean, I wasn't objecting to it, but my
point is you put it in the newspaper. Here's
a test available for the New York City Fire Department.
Come and get it. Nobody drove into my neighborhood
with a van with firemen on the side and knocked
on my door and said, would you like to be a New
York City fireman? Yet they did that for certain
areas of the city because they needed to get
more. of whatever race, gender, whatever, they're
promoting it. But I just, it's open to you. You're
not disadvantaged. The test is available for
you. We don't have to drive into your neighborhood
and knock on your door. So just go out there
and test. And I've promoted it to many people.
I think what's different in other parts of the
country is a lot of us have to go to school and
become firefighters first and EMTs and medics.
And there's quite a large price tag attached
to that. So I think there are communities where
people just simply can't afford to be trained
as a firefighter and then ultimately go into
the career. So I think, you know, where they're
not doing a civil service exam, this mentorship
model is more appropriate. Because you're removing
the barriers to entry. You're giving them the
training, the scholarships for fire academy.
And now you're getting young people who maybe
just would never have been able to enter this
job, given the opportunity to enter it. Yeah,
you're right. The other departments in Florida
in particular, you have to be certified first
and then you apply like you're applying for a
job. New York, it was just you take a written
and a physical and you get a list number. Absolutely.
All right. Well, I want to go all the way back
because you mentioned physical fitness and I
want to get your thoughts on standards in the
department. We'll do that in a minute. When we
go back to your early life, what were you playing
and doing as far as sports and exercise? I just
got into. You know, I was a 98 pound weakling
in high school. I remember getting off the bus.
I got picked on and bullied. I got off the bus.
And when I got off the bus, there was a guy walking
his dog that was like a monster. He looked like
something out of Arnold Schwarzenegger. And he
he asked me to come, you know, hey, kid, you
want to mow my lawn? And he said, yeah, I'll
teach you how to work out. So he took me in the
gym and this guy was a monster. He's one of the
first people in the United States to bench press
500 pounds. And he took me in the gym. And once
I and, you know, I was 17 or 16 at the time,
the testosterone's flowing. The minute I started
working out with weights, I just said, oh, this
is I just thought it was fantastic. So my I never
competed or anything in bodybuilding, but that
was my forte. I just I just loved it. Everything
about it. And then I got certified as a fitness
trainer and a nutritionist. So when did you,
was that prior to entering the fire service or
was that when you already were in the uniform?
Working out was prior to the fire service, which
served me well because when the time came for
the test, I was already, I didn't have to train
physically for it. I was jacked for it. So that
served me well. And then once I got on the fire
department, I took an interest in helping other
people and working out and stuff like that. So
I said, let me go get certified, which that's
really what led to the book, the cookbook. So
what about fitness standards? You've obviously
got some environments where there's nothing actually
on paper because you just held to that high standard.
I mean, obviously, some of our special forces,
special operations, you know, they kind of self
-govern. And if you can't do the job anymore,
you're out. And then you've got obviously some
places where they require a standard to be met.
And then arguably, sadly, a lot of. places in
our profession where there's no fitness standard
where people look nostalgically at academy as
the fittest they ever were which i think is completely
wrong what was the environment that you entered
in fdny in the war years which went from like
80 1965 to 1999 maybe um and especially my father's
era there was no there was no standards Once
you pass the physical and you got on, that was
it. They don't, once a year, I don't even think
they give them a medical once a year. And then
when I got on, it was the same thing. There was
no like a yearly fitness test. I don't even think
I had a yearly medical with the fire department,
unless you got hurt or injured. But other than
that, I don't recall probably the first 15 years
that I was there. I don't recall ever being called
out to, you got to go to the academy now and
do a. stay or climb for under eight minutes.
No fitness standards at all. I think it's different
now. I think they have an annual physical and
an annual standard for fitness. But during those
years, no. And that's why, again, that was one
of the other things that led to the book, too,
is I was working with the guys that were getting
heart attacks and they were obese. There was
this machismo feeling that if I get, even though
I'm 80 pounds overweight, once, once it comes
time, I can do the job. Don't worry about it,
kid. I'll make the long smoky hallway. You know,
and meanwhile, you got six flights of stairs.
They're down on the fourth, fourth, fourth floor
landing sucking real estate because they got,
they can't breathe. So yeah, they knew their
stuff, but physically, and again, nobody wants
to. die early from heart attack, heart disease
and fire departments rife with that. You know
what I mean? So I, that was the other thing that
led to getting certified as a fitness trainer
and the cooking thing too, because I always use
that story. I was new. I didn't, I didn't cook
at when I first got there, but you know, I just
went along with the program and they're like,
ah, you're in on dinner. Yeah, of course. You
know, and the guy's making mashed potatoes and
he's peeling sticks of butter like they were
bananas and throwing sticks of butter in it.
And I'm like, wow, this is like heavy eating
to be doing at nine o 'clock at night. You know,
and the ice cream and and all of that's wonderful
if you're a fit and you have it once in a while.
But these guys, some of them were really obese
and a few of them did. They wound up having heart
attacks. This is, I think, what's sad when you
hear people saying, well, they can still do the
job. Yeah, you can. But you could do the job
so much better if you actually lost. the weight
and then you don't have to look like a damn,
you know, Ken doll model. You know what I mean?
You don't have to have six pack abs, but being
a healthy body weight, how much better of a firefighter
will you be? So saying, yeah, I can, you know,
make it on a single story, um, you know, single
family dwelling structure fire. Okay. But like
you said, the moment you get that 10 story climb
with a hundred pounds of gear on your back. What
are you going to do then? So I think that kind
of argument is null and void. Okay, that's the
bare minimum. Congratulations, you probably could
scrape through on that fire, but that's not why
we're wearing the uniform. Your goal is to be
as prepared as you can be. So if you can be a
great firefighter with 50 pounds of extra weight
on you, imagine how much better you would be
if you were a healthy weight. Well, the machismo
factor of the fire service, unfortunately, is
exactly what I said, and especially if you're
take it to New York, which is the Machismo 2
.0. And they're of the thinking that if I get,
you know, once the time, when the call comes
and I got to do what I got to do, I'll make it
up to that landing. And they didn't. And, you
know, for me, especially as a newer person, to
even suggest that you, you know, you get these
grizzled Harlem, South Bronx firefighters, like,
and you say, listen, you can't even do a pull
-up. What if I was hanging out the window and
you had to pull me, you can't even pull your
own body weight up, you know, and then you get
it. Now you're into a machismo argument with
the person. The job isn't about pull -ups. No,
it isn't, but you may be called upon to, you
know, so you never try to do it by promotion.
You try to do it by attraction. You just work
out, you do your thing. You end up on the sixth
floor with the tools necessary and you break
the door down. He's down on the fourth landing,
can't even catch his breath. Later on the sly.
He'll ask you like, hey, Joe, listen, I don't
want to say anything to anybody, but I got to
I got to lose some weight. Can you give me some
information on what I need to do to, you know,
because they know eventually it's going to they're
not going to be able to do their job and eventually
might hurt them off the job getting heart attack,
heart disease, that kind of thing. And, you know,
listen, there's a vanity side to it, too. You
know, I work with guys like. It used to be comical
to me in a way, because, you know, here's a guy
with a, he's, he's 50 years old with a 50 inch
waist and he just got divorced. And he's like,
Hey Joe, listen, tell me some clubs I can go
to. Maybe I can go online and meet some girls.
And I go, yeah, all right, well, we'll type in,
you know, 50 year old fireman, 50 inch waist.
No, don't put 50 inch waist. They go, well, that's
what you have. And, you know, typical fireman,
you know, they would. Excuse the language. They
would grab their crotch and go, this is all that
matters. I'm like, that's all that matters. You
can't even see it over your stomach. So I go,
listen, you don't have to be Arnold Schwarzenegger.
But listen, a female would like to see a reasonably
fit person. You know, you think you're getting
divorced and you're going to go out there with
your Calvin Klein's jeans and your and your gold
chains and your 50 inch waist. And, you know,
you're losing your hair and you're going to be
like, oh, yeah, just. Yeah. I'm just going to
be out there pumping and dumping them. That's
it. That's what I'm going to do. I go, yeah,
good luck. You know, so there's a vanity side
to it, too. Again, you don't have to be, you
know, Arnold Schwarzenegger or, like you said,
a Ken doll, but reasonably fit. That's all anybody
could ask for. You want to take it to the next
level, great. You could do that, too. But, you
know, like I said, as a firefighter, and you
have a public image. You know, I've seen it where
women are like, that guy's a fireman. Well, that
guy's a policeman. Oh my God. How does he, and
you know, somehow they do do the job and they,
you know, and this is no disrespect to any, and
I don't mean when I say this, it's no disrespect
to any firefighter that's let himself go. Just
let's get it back for your longevity. I didn't
listen. I want to talk to guys till they're 90.
Like when I do the fitness seminars that that's
what I said to people, they go, I call it the
screw the city workout program. And they go,
what is that? I go, listen, you're never going
to get paid enough to do what you do, risk your
life, all right? And every contract comes up,
you're like, hey, screw the city, screw the city.
I go, listen, we all deserve a bigger raise if
we don't get it. You know how you could screw
the city? You retire and collect your pension
until you're 100. Get them for 40 years of your
pension after you retire at 60. Get 40 years
of your pension. But the average firefighter,
actually, the statistic is it doesn't last 10
years past his retirement. I don't know what
the statistic is now, but that was then. So the
best way to screw the city, yeah, we'd all like
to get a bigger raise, is keep in great shape,
do your job, you know, and collect your pension
until you're 101. Absolutely. My granddad, I
remember when he hit the year where he'd been
retired longer than he'd been alive. And he worked
for an insurance company, so he was just like
a genius with numbers. But I think he retired
in his 50s, I think. early early 50s and he lived
to be 100 basically he died of cancer but uh
you know so he he smashed it yeah that's the
best way to get him back so i want to get to
some of you know the the firehouse or the the
cause as well but seeing as we open the door
for strength and conditioning and nutrition so
you walk through the door you know you've got
this background as an athlete yourself now tactical
athlete as we like to say what what was the journey
from the nutrition side through to ultimately
creating a cookbook perfect example small crew
that we work with especially an older firehouse
slower firehouse that's where all the guys go
to retire and that's where i worked with most
of the older guys that were on or near retirement
and they weren't looking to you know it wasn't
a really super busy firehouse so you didn't get
that kind of mentality they had it they did their
time in a busy place but now they're on cruise
control so And once in a while, you know, and
plus I wanted to stay fit. I took part in the
meals and I took part in it for sticks of butter
and the mashed potatoes. And it certainly was
delicious. And there was some fantastic cooks.
I go, you know, if I keep eating like this, I'm
going to end up like that. So I'd like to, you
know, plus if you're exercising, nutrition is
two thirds of it. So I said, yeah, listen, fellas,
I'm going to cook tonight. What do you say? All
right, we'll give you a shot. So then I would
experiment with things like. putting roasted
garlic and mashed potatoes instead of butter,
you know, and skim milk and roasted garlic and
seasonings. Same with the meats. I would season
the meats. If I made a meatloaf, I would put
it on a rack so a lot of the fat would drain
off into the bottom. And then I would leave it
and I would say in the morning, I go, see all
of this in the bottom that's hardened? That would
be in your veins. So the food tasted just as
good. With mild adjustments, you had to be careful
because the mentality always was, ah, you can't
put out fires on rabbit food and anything. I
need salad every day. And just you hear all the,
you know, typical things that people would say
when nutrition comes into it. But I think what
got them is that, you know, if you're eating
for fitness and bodybuilding or whatever, you're
eating fairly big meals to maintain your. muscle
size and definition and all that other stuff
so it wasn't like i was eating salads i was eating
big portion of chicken big portion of rice big
you know but there were ways to clean it up a
little bit without getting crazy you know and
then i said listen maybe you need to take it
to the next level for three months until you
get fit and then maybe once a week you cheat
and have something that you really like cheesecake
pie ice cream whatever it is that you like So
little by little, I started to cook like that.
And again, I had to be careful because I'm new
and you don't want to ruffle any feathers. And
little by little, they're like, hey, this is
pretty good. You know, this isn't bad. I could
do this. So I made it sort of like I can do this
thing. It's not going to be rabbit food. It's
not going to be just salad with no dressing.
It's going to be, you know, so made it approachable
or relatable. Like I can do this. You know what
I mean? And so attraction worked better than
promotion. They see the way you eat. They, you
know, like I would watch guys like try all these
wacky diets, like cabbage soup diet and this
thing and the keto and all these crazy. I go
and, you know, they used to make fun of me. He
goes, the guy eats two chickens a day. Me meaning.
And I did. I was having like half a chicken at
lunch and half a chicken at five o 'clock. He
goes, the guy's eating all day and he doesn't
gain any weight. I go, well, doesn't that tell
you something? You're eating cabbage soup, smelling
up the whole firehouse, and you still haven't
lost any weight. You know? So it was a comedy.
It was a comedy show to boot, but the serious
side of it was the health and, you know. So apparently
I approached it all right because I didn't really
get too much kickback. You said attraction works
better than promotion. When it started in...
my second last department i carried through to
the last one the one before that we had a culture
of of exercise so we would play sports together
we work out together it was just ingrained there
were no needs for fitness standards because it
was there and if they had fitness standards you
know 90 the department would have smashed it
without you know put changing anything when i
go to the next one back on the east coast you
know the it's a different um kettle of fish there
are some phenomenal athletes all the way through
to the gentleman that you just described trying
to get back into the dating game um in my station
i started doing it was crossfit i was into them
of course and i then i started working out and
for the first few weeks it was just me out there
and i was totally fine with that i mean i've
worked out on my own for a long time prior to
that but then one of the guys said you know what
is this that you're doing And then I got him
doing it and I showed him how you can scale it.
And now it's not intimidating. You're not going
to look stupid. And, you know, let's just go
through some of the movements. By the time I
left, the whole station was working out. And
then it was the same in the next department started
on my own. And then by the end, when I left,
I'd be on my day off. I'd come back to, you know,
take my son to a park or something. I'd swing
by the station and grab something. And the crew
is all working out. So I completely agree with
you, you know, ramming it down someone's throat.
There's a time and place. Right now, when I'm
talking about the firefighter work week in a
lot of the country, this is the time and a place
for throat punching. You know, we've provided
all this information. Now we're calling out people
to actually act. But that being said, that doesn't
work on everything by any means. And so in that
particular scenario, if I'd just been in there
like, oh, why don't you just work out with me?
What's wrong with you? No one would have listened.
But by simply going out there and then, as you
said, performing on a fire, people then go, oh,
well, there must be something to this because.
i'm not saying i'm heroic or anything on a fire
but he's able to work and doesn't seem to get
tired yeah and that's i i have always stuck with
the attraction rather than promotion thing because
it's a cohesive unit if everybody drinks then
everybody's gonna drink if everybody's single
and most people if everybody's working out and
you're gonna fight it and sit in the kitchen
eating cheesecake you start to feel left out
a little bit so now you have to kind of like
Slowly bring them into it, you know, because
there's an ego involved. Because, listen, as
a new firefighter in shape, I don't want to walk
in and say, you know, look at your waist. You're
embarrassing. You can't even run up a flight.
You know, you're getting some grizzled firefighter
from the war years that served his time in Harlem
and the South Bronx. Now he's in a slower flight.
You're going to say, listen, you can't even do
a pull -up. You can't do your job. You'll be
in a fistfight. before you know it, you know?
So you don't, you don't even, I don't even, I
didn't even say anything. I would just do, you
know, I would, I would click with the guys I
clicked with. And if they asked for help, you
know, help them work out. And then eventually
if he's sitting in there eating cheesecake and
there's three guys down the basement working
out sooner or later, he says, you know, maybe
there's something I should think about, you know,
it's the group mentality usually. So that's kind
of what I ran into. And then I was always pretty
sensitive. person about that kind of thing because
i would kind of lead it towards work with compliments
rather than insults which works better i would
say listen you got great genetics under that
fat you got some muscle and i go if you uh you
know if we if you if we get you working out the
fat will go away pretty quickly i said this is
a two or three month project i said it took you
50 years to get here and we can undo it in three
months i think that's a small price to pay And
I go, look, you'll lose the weight. You'll do
your job better. It's better for your heart.
There's no downside to it. And then they'd kid
around and say, yeah, and maybe your wife will
be chasing you around the coffee table now instead
of putting off because you walk out of the shower
and you drop your towel. And she's like, oh,
God, do I have to look at this? So it's good
for your ego and your personality. They say,
hey, that's a good idea. There's nothing but
pluses to it. Exactly. One of my guests actually
told me, and I didn't know this prior to the
conversation, but it makes so much sense. There's
all these commercials on TV about pills for erectile
dysfunction. Well, your penis is basically nothing
but, you know, blood vessels. There's no muscles
in there. You know, there's no bones in there.
So when you have issues down there, that's actually
a terrifying precursor for heart disease, you
know, or strokes. It means that your arteries
are starting to close up. So the other, it's
just something, it's funny because you touched
on it. The other thing that really, I think,
would strike men to the heart is that when you
actually get yourself healthier, that's going
to start working properly again. You're not going
to rely on some pill that's basically masking
the fact that you probably are going to die soon.
So when we give people the pills for chest pain,
we've got to ask them, are you on Viagra? Because
it's doing the exact same thing. So this is another
layer to the argument of why you should, you
know, be courageous and lean into, you know,
kind of taking control of your health because
it's your sexual health as well. You know, if
that stopped working, there can be psychological
elements too, which might be tied into. you know,
your perception of yourself in the mirror. But
when you get yourself down to a healthy weight,
chances are that sexually you're going to perform
a lot better as well. Yeah, whenever I've had
fitness clients, male or female, and they want
to know body fat percentage, you know, I go,
no, no, no, I don't have to do any of that. Here's
what I want you to do. I want you to put on a,
if it's a guy, put on a very skimpy bathing suit.
stand under a fluorescent light, take a picture
from the front and a picture from the back, put
it in an envelope and come and see me in a week.
Don't even look at the picture. And then you
take the picture. And I've done this with females,
which works fabulously because, listen, we all
stand in the light that we look the best in.
And I've certainly seen firemen like that, you
know, try to like cinch the waist on their pants
and turn to the side a little to try to look.
But when you stand under fluorescent light in
a skimpy bathing suit front and back and you
take a picture and then they don't see it and
then you take it out and go, you tell me what
condition you're in. You look at this. And they're
like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. I had no idea I
looked like that. But meanwhile, they would take
a picture and they put a suit on. You know, a
typical guy is like, I'm stocky. I'm bulky. I
have a football player build. But we always had
the comebacks for that. You know, like a friend
of mine out in the dating scene, she was like,
yeah, I went on a date. A guy said he had a football
build. Meaning you would think like Mark Gastineau
or NFL linebacker. She goes, no, he looked like
a football. He was pointed on both ends and big
and round like a football. But this is what people
to delude themselves. So that's what I say. Look
at the picture. So even even when it comes to
the job. So when somebody can't say to me, I
can do the job. OK. Here's 80 pounds of equipment.
I'll meet you on the sixth floor. And if on the
fourth floor they can't even breathe, it doesn't
matter how tactical they are, how much they know
how to take a door, use a halogen, whatever.
They can't make it to the fire floor to do their
job. So that's their wake up call. I don't need
to. I'm not going to tell you you can't do your
job because then I'm going to get a fist fight
with some grizzled fireman from Harlem. Let him
find out on his own. And then, yes, they have
to say, listen, I, I get it. Now, how do we fix
it? So absolutely. Well, so you've got us through
to kind of cooking in the firehouse. Now you're
cooking for your crew and making healthy meals.
How does that lead you to cooking competitions
and ultimately creating a book? Well, it actually
worked backwards. I was just a mediocre firehouse
cook. I definitely knew about the nutrition end
of it, making things and experimenting a little
bit. And then I transferred out of the slower
firehouse to a busier being a young. I wanted
to be in a busier firehouse. Plus, I was in a
single firehouse. There's only like four guys
you work with and an officer. Double firehouse
is a truck and an engine. And now you got 12
people you work with. So it's just as much more
comedy, more fun, more action. I wanted to be
in a ladder company, not an engine company. more
personnel around, you know, so all of that. So
I transferred to that fires. And again, I started
slowly cooking here and there, some good, some
bad, sometimes it came out great, sometimes not.
And then just on a whim, um, to fast forward
the story in 1984, there was a New York city
fireman named John Sunino, who I know, who I
knew well, he published a book called the firefighters
cookbook, small paperback, 5 ,000 copies for
whatever reason. Maybe your audience will know.
I don't know if you remember. There was a talk
show host named Phil Donahue. He was transferring
his studio from Chicago to New York. So he asked
his editors and stuff, listen, I want to do a
show. My first show in New York, I want to warm
up to the New York audience. Give me some ideas.
So one of his producers said, hey, listen, you
know what? New Yorkers love their firemen. And
they always see them at the supermarket cooking,
buying food. And they know that they cook and
they know some of them are really good cooks.
Why don't we do a little cooking episode? There
was a guy that just did a little book. You know,
he goes, well, call him. They called him and
him and about three other firefighters from Harlem.
Engine 58 is where he worked in Harlem. Did this
episode on Phil Donahue. And he was no TV star
or anything, but it was he got a little nervous
when he was cooking and the food started to burn
a little bit. And while Phil Donahue was asking
him the firehouse, what's it like? Where do you
work? He was a. John, your food. Oh, my God.
You know, so they went over there to put it.
So it made for a comedic routine. And it just
after he did that show, the word now is viral.
Then we didn't have the Internet, but it just
if that's the word, it went viral. And the book
ended up on The New York Times bestseller list
for nine weeks in a row. Wow. Nine weeks on The
New York bestseller list. They couldn't get enough
of it. And he was all over the place. But. Because
of his nutritional background, he ended up having
a triple bypass. So along comes 1990, I guess
it was 93 or something. Again, I didn't enter
any cooking contest. I had just gone to New York
University. I got my degree in fitness and nutrition.
And I was doing some personal training and cooking
and just being a fireman. There was a course
at the new school called How to Write a Cookbook
and Get It Published. And I go, you know what?
Saturday in Manhattan, I'm between shifts. Instead
of going all the way out to Long Island home,
I'll just take this course in Manhattan and see
what it's about and just get the information.
Did not go hell bent on publishing a cookbook.
The teacher says, are we going to go around the
room? Everybody say your idea for a cookbook.
I'm like, idea for a cookbook? I don't even,
I just wanted to take this course and maybe,
I don't know, meet some girls on a Saturday in
Manhattan. And he goes around the room. So I
said, Joe, think quick. So I said, all right.
There was a very successful book in 1984. bestseller
list, but he had a triple bypass. I'm certified
as a fitness trainer and a nutritionist, maybe
a healthy fireman cookbook. And that fit by the
time they got to me, that's how I did. And I
said, listen, I'm New York city fireman, been
a fireman for 13 years. If I was going to do,
it was a successful book in 84. If I just got
certified as a fitness trainer, I'd do a healthy
firehouse cookbook. He just said, you know what?
That's a really good idea. But meanwhile, it
was 75 people in the class. And because it was
New York, They were like focused on writing a
book. I mean, these people had 300 recipes with
them, culinary training all over the world. And
I go, look at the company I'm in. Oh, my God.
And I'm not even ready. And, you know, this is
like a Cinderella story. So the teacher said,
all right, this afternoon we have an editor from
Hearst Publishing from New York coming in. She's
going to do a little thing. And then she did
her thing in the afternoon. She says, we're going
to open the floor for five minutes. Say your
idea for a cookbook, and she'll let you know.
Seventy -four hands went up, and I'm sitting
in like this. I'm like, oh, my God. I'm not going
to mention my idea. I don't even have anything
ready. And these people were – and because it
was New York, they were trying to get noticed.
They're like, oh, you know, I went to the Culinary
Institute in Hyde Park. I graduated with honors
and I cooked in Sweden and France and England
and all over the world, cruises. And I'm like,
wow, look at the company I'm in. And these people
were ready. This is going to be the name of my
book. I have the recipes ready. I'm like, I had
a pen and a paper with me. So the editor says,
all right. And she's shooting people down. She
goes, no, we had three Swedish books last year.
Yeah, we had a cruise book last year. No, that's
no good. That's not good. That's not good. I
go, wow, she's like. I'm not even going to mention
my idea. Teacher ends the class, says, don't
be shy if you have a good idea. Thank you, everybody,
for attending the class. Like our fireman, for
instance. Did you mention your idea? I'm like,
oh, my God. I said, hi, this is my name. You
know, if it was a successful book in 84, if I
was going to do it, it would be healthy. She
goes, that is a fabulous idea. Come up after
the class. And she gave me, I'm the head editor
for Hearst. Here's my card. She goes, do you
have an agent? I go, agent? I'm a fireman. I
don't have an agent. She goes, well, that's how
it works. Monday morning, I'll get you an agent
and they'll walk you through the process, which
they did. And in 95, the first healthy firehouse
cookbook came out. And then it was crazy after
that. It was Regis, Good Morning America, Martha
Stewart, the New York Times, Daily News. It was
just, it started to get light. And I'm still
working at the time. You know, and it was just
it was crazy, you know, and it was so funny because
the firefighters I was working with were never
very complimentary on your cooking. Very rare.
They were like, cookbook, get the heck out of
here. Will you get out of here? You're not writing
no cookbook. Can't even boil an egg, you know,
and it just then it just started to snowball.
And it just it was fun for everybody. We just
had. press there all the time and brought friends
of mine to the regis show regis at the time in
good morning america and it just was a wild ride
the book did well then in 98 they contacted me
again they wanted to do a grilling cookbook so
we did that and then 9 11 happened and then after
9 11 so that's why i'm pretty adamant about mentioning
that all of this was happening to me before 9
11. i'm not somebody that Because I was involved
in 9 -11 trying to take advantage of it, publishing
a book. No, it was all happened well before that.
So now you want to talk about 9 -11. Yeah, I
mean, you have such a powerful story as far as
even why you found yourself in New York early
that morning. The book actually led to, I had
my retirement papers in. i was getting a lot
of because i was on tv so much i was getting
a lot of calls from companies to be like listen
if it will get you on tv but you mention this
food company or that food company and they pay
you you get compensated for it so i'm like okay
listen i've done put decks on people's houses
and put roofs on people's houses for a lot less
money than they were paying me to be a guest
on a tv show So I was sort of like a kid around.
I sort of like there's the A -listers like Bobby
Flay and Rachel Ray and Emeril. And I was like
a D -list or an L -list or way down the line,
but there was still a call for it. So by a crazy
twist of fate, I get called by Ranzoni Pasta
in New York. It was a big pasta company in New
York. They said, Joe, we'd like to, we're going
to have a farming cooking contest. We want you
to judge it. And plus you've been on TV. We want
you to promote it, the contest on TV. Okay. So
I did a few the summer of 2001. And then maybe
mid -August, they called me up and they said,
Joe, a local WB11 in New York wants to do, with
the host of the show, they want you at a firehouse
doing some cooking. Are you available? I get
choked up. Are you available September 8th, 2001?
We're going to do it at your firehouse in Queens,
which is ladder 152. I said, okay. All right.
It's all confirmed. Joe, we're all set September.
And this is probably mid -August. We're all set
September 8th. We're going to do it early in
the morning. And the host of the show will meet
us out there. It's all set. Okay. A couple of
weeks go by. The beginning of September, I get
a phone call. Joe, this is the public relations
company for Ranzoni. The TV crew doesn't want
to come all the way out to Queens because of
the traffic. They don't get a really good signal.
Would you be willing to do it in Manhattan, at
a firehouse in Manhattan? I said, yeah, my brother
used to work in Manhattan. And I know that firehouse,
and I know some people that work there. It's
Ladder 3 on 13th and Broadway. I go, yeah, I
know where that is. It's right down the block
from my brother's firehouse. Sure, I know. And
I know two people that work there. And they said,
great. All right, it's all set. The only thing
is we can't do it on September 8th. Are you available
the morning of September 11th? Not knowing, I
go, yeah. All right, well, we're going to change
the date the morning of September 11th. Car service
will pick you up at your house and drive you
into the firehouse. Okay, not knowing who could
have ever thought. Beautiful day. Picked me up
at like six o 'clock in the morning. It's 530
in the morning to beat the traffic. I drive in,
walk into ladder three, meet all the firefighters
there, including Captain Patrick Brown, very
famous firefighter from New York. He just walked
in and came in on duty. He was talking to me
a little bit, talking to all the guys. Then the
host of the show shows up. So we did one segment
and it was live. But the main studio. was doing
their normal daily – it's an hour show. They're
doing their show, and they go, we're going to
cut live to Joe, and Larry Huff was the name
of the host. We're going to cut live to Joe at,
you know, ladder three with Larry Huff. And he
was a goofball. He was goofing around with me
and coming down the pole and doing all this stuff.
So one was at 6 .45. One was at 7 .45, like a
little three -minute segment. We'd cook a little
thing. We'd bring it out to the street. We're
feeding people. And then the last segment was
about eight, probably 820, 830. The first plane
hit at 846. So to this day, I will never forget
it. The girl said to me, Joe, the car service
person is in, they're in the Bronx. They can't
get here for an hour. I said, okay, no problem.
I hang out and they, and all the guys were like,
Joe, great. Come on back in the kitchen with
us. Hang with us, you know, take a few runs with
us or whatever. So I said, ah, you know what?
Yeah, no problem. So took my gear off. I'm in
uniform. I took my gear off. I start to go back
in the kitchen. The girl that works for the public
relations company, I could see it. The phone
rings. She goes, Joe, I got good news. There's
another car right around the block and they can
take you now if you want. And I was like this.
And the other firefighters, no. wait, you're
going to be stuck in traffic when it's nine,
it's quarter to almost a quarter to nine. There's
going to be nothing but traffic. And I was like
this close to saying, I go, you know what? I
don't want to hold a car service guy up. You
know, if they got a car, I'm not going to wait
an hour. And, you know, ah, come on, come on.
They're pulling me like this. You know, I'm like,
no, no, no, no. And it was a live segment behind
me or three, four. I've been calling their kids
and saying, well, daddy's on TV, you know, live,
get the kids up, check them out. And I got in
the car. I got in the car service. I said, hey,
fellas, have a safe tour. Got in the car. I pull
out. They pulled out right behind me. I made
a right towards the Queens Midtown Tunnel. They
made a left to the World Trade Center. The plane
had to fly right over my, I didn't even, but
I did hear tons of sirens. And I'm like, what
the, you know, but it's New York. That's normal.
But it just seemed like there was more going
on. Like, this is something that's not right.
And I said, put the radio on. And the guy put
the radio on and he says, you know, we got some,
we interrupt this program. Apparently a small
plane has hit the World Trade Center. And I'm
going up 6th Avenue. I mean, I could turn and
actually see it. I didn't see the plane hit,
but I see smoke pouring. I'm like, small plane.
Plus it was beautiful weather. I'm like, how
did a small plane lose? It wasn't foggy or anything
like that. And then you're just like, ah, you
know, and I'm listening to the reports. And just
before I went in the Queens Midtown tunnel, oh,
we have a woman that lives across from the World
Trade Center. Ma 'am, can you tell us what you
see? She goes, yeah, I think a plane hit the
World Trade Center and I could see probably a
dozen floors on fire with the cross section of
the wing. And I'm like, a dozen floors for a
small plane? It just didn't fit. So then I go
into Queens Midtown tunnel. where we didn't have
radio reception. I get out, we go through the
toll. And now I turn around and I see the second
plane hit the tower. I didn't see the plane hit.
I just saw the explosion. And I'm like, what
the? Now I hear on the radio, now I got reception
again. This is not a small plane, two commercial
airliners. And then we're getting reports of
Washington and Pennsylvania. Apparently this
is an attack. And I'm like, oh, my God. So I
asked the driver to turn around and he turned.
I get you get me back into Manhattan. Thank God
I wasn't able to get back because Steven Silla,
who works for Tunnel to Towers, he couldn't get
back and he ran through the tunnel and picked
up a rig and went in. Thank God I didn't or else
I'd have been one of the one of the victims.
And they wouldn't let us through the tunnel.
They go, no, tunnels closed. Doesn't matter.
Policemen find the tunnels are closed. You're
not getting through. You know, and I'm like,
please, please. No, you're not getting through.
Oh, my God. I was hoping I could flag down a
police car or something. Nope. Says, all right,
we'll take me back out to Long Island. When I
got back out to Long Island, I walked in the
front door. As soon as I put the TV on, I was
watching the towers collapse. And I'm saying
to myself, oh, my God, I'm watching thousands
of people get killed. This is, you know, of course,
for the world and yourself included. Every, you
know, you saw what I saw. I just grief beyond.
Anything you could possibly think of. And then
my brother, who was retired from the FDNY from
a back injury, happened to be visiting New York.
He was from Cleveland. And I said, Michael, I
can't watch this on TV anymore. You know, I'm
going in. And he said, do you have any extra
gear? Excuse me. He says, do you have any extra
gear? And I said, yeah. He goes, well. Grab your
extra gear and I'll go with you. And my sister
dropped us off at the train station. And then
we went. And then me and him actually found the
rig, Ladder 3, where I was that morning. And
then one of our friends worked in the medical
office. We saw him and he, you know, he said,
Joe, I have a missing list. But within a brief
period of time, I knew what missing meant. Missing
didn't mean we can't find the missing means.
And I said, what about the guys from Ladder 3?
Because nobody made it. And out of the 12 that
got killed that I was having breakfast with,
they only found two of them. The other 10 were
just dust in the wind, you know. So I made a
videotape of the appearances because they got
to see all the people around me were the firemen
we were with that morning. And I delivered them
to each family so they could see a video of their
last moments. you know, before that. And then
after that, it was just funerals and funerals
and funerals. It was just, you know, you went
through it. Everybody, every firefighter from
around the world felt it, you know, whether you
were there or not, which was one of the most
endearing things about it was to, you know, every
time we went back to either shower or grab a
bite to eat, I would go into the firehouse and
there would be pictures up from firefighters
around the world. Ireland, England, France, Poland,
Russia, all standing on the apron of their respective
firehouses with their helmet saluting us. It
was just, the outpouring of help and support
was just, it didn't change the event for sure,
but it certainly brought the world together.
And I don't mean New York, I don't mean United
States, I mean the world. I was in Japan when
that all unfolded. I'd been out with my ex -wife
now, but a girlfriend at the time. And we'd gone
to see a movie, I think it was, and we came in
and I worked for Universal Studios. They opened
a theme park there. And it was kind of like half
American, half Australian in the cast, and then
a few of us kind of mutts from other parts of
the world. And we went in and there was a TV
room downstairs. everyone's in there normally
there would be you know a couple of people sitting
in there maybe because everyone obviously had
their own apartments and the first plane had
hit and so obviously people are you know watching
especially the americans and then right like
two minutes after they explain what happened
is when when the second plane hit and then obviously
you know ultimately the collapse and that was
yeah again americans and australians watching
from japan so i was literally the other side
of the planet watching and i felt the ripple
effect in that country too it was just it really
was a global event it was a global terrible terrible
event but on the positive side it brought the
globe together it really did it really did One
thing I've heard people talk about a lot fondly,
and I think we even heard the phrase, I miss
9 -12 during COVID, and this divisive few years
that we've just been through. Talk to me about
the people of New York now. What did you see
as far as the days following and that community
that was forged out of tragedy? The outpouring
of love and support. And like I said, it didn't
change the event. And it was hard to appreciate
really at the time because we were so grief stricken.
But when I thought back about, you know, like
the firehouse I was, I used to work in this firehouse
for a short period of time, Ladder 5. And my
brother was in Ladder 7. Ladder 5 is in Greenwich
Village. Ladder 7 is, I think it's called NoHo
area that it's in. It was a little further, but
Ladder 5 was closer. So I would go there. for
shower and clean up and maybe grab. And every
time I went in there, there would be people bringing
in trays of lasagna, food, just, I mean, I think
I got hugged to death. I mean, I had so many
people just like, and you know, at a different
time in my life, I probably could have appreciated
because I'd be. You know, we ate and then we'd
be hanging around waiting for a ride to get back
down to ground zero. And I'd be standing in front
of quarters and like a thousand beautiful women
would be passing by. Do you mind if I hug you?
No, go ahead. Mind if I hug you? Oh, go ahead.
It was like at another time in my life, maybe
I could have taken advantage and gotten a few
phone numbers, but they were just old, young.
It just, they were just so, they wanted to take
away our pain. And congratulate us for the bravery
part of it. And although it was really genuine
and nice and wonderful and everything like that,
it's just I could have given that all up and
not have the event happen and the grief and everything
that went with it. Because, you know, to go to
funeral after funeral after funeral after funeral
and see crying children, crying wife story. And
you've seen them. You've read it, probably read.
dozens and dozens of stories of like and mine
is one of them you know of like listen i was
in there having breakfast with 12 people and
and it was a crazy thing because i'll never forget
uh george's name was i was after we made breakfast
i was doing the dishes and this guy george had
just got a sign there fresh out of probie school
so he pushed me aside And he says, you're a guest
here. You don't do dishes. And I go, listen,
I don't mind. I'm doing dishes, you know. I said,
all right, you know what? If you want to do dishes,
then I'll dry. So he's doing the dishes, and
we talked. And he said, oh, my God, I am so thrilled.
I just got out of the training academy, and I
got transferred to this firehouse. Patty Brown
works here. I've been dying to get to this firehouse.
And he goes, I'm so thrilled. Forty -five minutes
later, he was gone. You know, one minute I'm
talking to him, he's so excited to be there.
Then I talked to another firefighter. He's like,
yeah, I'm thinking of retiring. I want to move
out to Iowa with my wife, blah, blah, blah. I
think I'm just going to put in another six months.
Same thing. So there was so many. You could write
a, somebody probably did, wrote dozens of stories.
I have so many unbelievable stories. One of my
friends, he was outside the collapse zone, but
that big whoosh of wind and stuff like that.
He says, Joe, I was flying through the air like
this. I didn't even in smoke. I didn't even know
what I landed. And next thing you know, a bunch
of debris fell on top of me. And what happened
is a motorcycle actually bounced along and fell
on top of him. And the roll bar, he was under
the roll bar. So the other stuff that fell on
him didn't hurt him. But the only thing sticking
out was his fireman's coat glove and his forearm
out of the debris. And he heard people walking
by and they said, oh, my God, it's a fireman's
arm. I can't believe it. And he moved his arm.
So then they pulled all the debris off of him.
And thankfully, he was okay. But I have so many.
And, you know, it was, you know, if you talk
about, I've always said being a fireman is about
being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And
then you just got to hope luck and if you're
spiritual, God is with you and it takes you out
of it. But I have so many stories of firefighters
who, just like the one I was with, you know.
Like they, in the Bronx, I know two guys. The
crime was still pretty bad in the Bronx. They
have a gated thing for their parked cars. So,
and without our change of shifts, that was the
weird thing about it. It was right at nine o
'clock is our change of shift and the plane hit
at 846. So there were guys still hanging around
having coffee. There was some guys off duty,
on duty. So there was so many extra personnel
there. If it happened at two in the afternoon,
it'd be different. And these two guys went today,
off duty, you know, relieved early. Plane hit
at 846. They were relieved early. The guy came
in at 830. And he's like, oh, Charlie, take off
on me. OK, they get in their cars. They pull
out. There's only the width of the gate is only
wide enough for one car. So they had nose to
nose. You go. No, you just do the windshield.
You know, you go. All right. He goes and he leaves.
The other guy pulls out. The rig pulls out onto
the apron. And he said, Bobby, a plane just hit
the World Trade Center. He pulls back in. He
got killed. Now, the guy that waved off, you
know, he's got survivor guilt. Like, why didn't
I let him go? I would have gladly taken that
place. Now he's got what they call survivor guilt.
And that's just divine intervention, you call
it. And I experienced it myself. I said, why
did I? All I had to do was tell the girl, nah,
you know, I'm going to wait. And that would have
been it. If the run would have came in, I would
have jumped on the rig with them and that way
I would have went. So for some reason, why, I
don't know. Still here and to do God's will and
whatever. Do good and that's what I'm trying
to do. I had Will Jimeno on the show. That was
one of the two Port Authority police officers
that was pulled out of the wreckage after everything
had collapsed. and again i mean he lost so many
of his you know brothers and sister or brothers
i think in this case um and it was just the absolute
luck of the draw of these void spaces that were
created and he was you know smashed to pieces
but he survived his injuries but uh again i mean
you talk about that that survivor's guilt and
that you know one in a million chance that he
was in the exact right place for these you know
elevator shafts and all these other things that
came into to them surviving But I mean, you know,
almost 2000 people deceased. And, you know, again,
at that point, you are really just sitting in
God's hands, isn't it? I mean, we've seen it
so much in our profession with some of these
people that survive these crazy car accidents
and these other ones that are dead and it is
barely a scratch on the car. Yeah, but the thing
about 9 -11, yes, there's an accident and a fall.
But that was on such a grand scale, it was hard
to encompass the grief on that grand of a scale.
You know, it's one thing three firemen get killed
in a fire. It's just as bad. But you're talking
about 343 in one shot, you know. That's more
firemen got killed in the New York Fire Department
than the whole city of Richmond, Virginia. Doesn't
even have 343 firemen. That whole department
would have been wiped out. And that's what was
so hard for the world to even comprehend. encompass
that kind of grief on such a grand scale but
we're still here and i guess we have purpose
and that's what we do so i try to share the story
and i always try to extrapolate it with yeah
we all understand life is short that's how one
few minutes can change your whole life and you
know try to do good and pay it forward what is
it you think that contributed to kind of letting
go of that. I mean, of course, we want to, you
know, move on and grieve and all those things
when it comes to the community and rebuild, you
know, one world trade. But, you know, it wasn't
that long ago that that happened. Now you start
losing people to all the different elements that
are related to 9 -11, whether it was the cancers,
whether it was the suicides. And then you're
seeing, and I know he was merely just, you know,
putting it front and center. I know there were
so many people behind this movement, but we're
watching Jon Stewart do this, you know, very
emotional speech to just simply get these benefits
to these people that are dying of cancer to at
least take care of their families. How did that
disconnect happen? How do we go from 9 -12 where
people were so bonded and really empathetically
hurting for the people of New York to, for example,
the division that we saw in COVID so far from
that community? Well, I do remember not too long
after 9 -11, talking to a few firefighters in
my brother's firehouse, and I do remember the
way he said it. He said, hey, you better enjoy
this adulation that we're having now because
it's going to go back to normal pretty soon,
which means politics and this is costing us money
and why do we have to pay for, you know. So enjoy
it while you can. And he was right. You know,
people have forgotten. They'll never forget it,
but it's never going to be as intense as it was
that moment. You know, and people do. They tend
to, time heals all wounds. And it didn't heal
it, but it makes it less. And now all of a sudden
there's all these firefighters dying from cancers
and lung disease and brain tumors and all kinds
of, I've lost so many friends. I mean, I'm getting
things once a month. Knock wood, I haven't had
any medical complications from it. But the fire
department's been really, the FDNY has been great.
They give us annual medicals. I mean, they really
have been, I have to say, they've really been
terrific. And there are agencies that are compensating,
the Victims' Compensation Fund. So they're being
looked after, but it doesn't help if you're gone.
And that's where I try to say, keep your nutrition,
your health, your fitness up so that you may
be not so susceptible to some disease. We all
know that the transition, is extremely jarring
so you wore this uniform for 20 plus years you
know you had this incredible tribe that you loved
you had the sense of purpose you know you drive
home like so many of us do knowing that you made
a difference in the world and then one day you
know that door closes behind you for the final
time and for a lot of people that is you know
you've sometimes allowed that to be your incomplete
identity and that could be jarring as well but
your transition span 9 -11 which is a whole Another
level. So what was the transition like for you?
Well, you're talking about mentally, emotionally?
Yeah, all the things. Yeah. Yeah. Well, again,
it's a very high profile thing. And I'm dealing
with that now. I just got certified by the IAFF
to do peer counseling for PTSD and suicide. I
told you my brother in 2012 took his life. He
was working with me side by side at Ground Zero.
9 -11 was one of the things he was struggling
with. He had other life issues and stuff like
that. And I don't think 9 -11 was the reason
that he did it, but it certainly didn't help.
And he didn't process it as well as maybe I did.
And I've certainly gone for professional help
to really walk through it and say why and the
survivor guilt and all that stuff. So that's
really what I'm trying to do now is to try to
help. When I do seminars, yeah, some of it's
leading to health, fitness, nutrition. I'd like
to do that. But this whole other avenue of the
mental side of it, because it is, it's a huge
part of your identity. You go and they don't
prepare you for it. I mean, one minute you're
a high profile rock star, New York City fireman.
And you're okay. You got 20 years on. Do you
want to put your papers in? They type in some
numbers. This is what it's going to be. Grab
your gear, hang your gear up, return your gear
and goodbye. And, you know, every farmer will
say, oh, I can't wait. It's so funny to hear
them say, I can't wait to retire. I'm going to
fish every day or I'm going to golf every day.
And then you go from the camaraderie, the laughs,
the excitement, the adventure, the excitement,
all of it to, what, golfing and fishing? How
much can you fish? How much can you golf? They
really should do. And they are trying to do a
better job at preparing you for retirement. You
know, I'm working with two organizations. Tunnel
to Towers is one. and IAFF and also there's another
great organization ffbha .org and they deal with
firefighter suicides and uh there's firefight
you know I've been trying to get back into doing
the seminars and stuff it took me a while to
get over my brother's loss but I say to the fire
service that are contemplating doing seminars
Listen, I was in a ladder company, in a busy
ladder company. I know how to do forcible entry,
roof ventilation. I can do all those classes.
And those are the classes that are sold out.
But more firefighters are dying from suicide
than are dying from line -of -duty injuries.
So that's where the focus should be. So, yeah,
give a class on forcible entry, roof ventilation,
ladders, do that. But maybe at some point do
a class on, listen, someday, fellas, you're 28,
you're 30. Someday you're going to retire and
you're going to be older and you're going to
maybe lose your identity. I don't know. But I
want to prepare you for that. And I want to prevent
this. You know, if I tell you more firefighters
are dying from suicide than are dying from line
of duty injuries, then that's where you should
put your focus. You know, let's talk, shop, talk,
job, talk, forcible entry. Yeah, great. But someday
that's not going to be your conversation. Your
conversation is like, what are you doing when
you're retired? Sitting around watching reruns?
You know, you lose your, you know, and that's,
there's nothing wrong with that. But as long
as you're in a good mental state, you know, and
I just, I've seen so many lose their identity.
And yeah, I had the book stuff happening. So
it kept kind of, especially after 9 -11, I got
more and more calls to do stuff. And it was really
kind of crazy for a while. And I'm actually,
to this day, I'm still getting it. I'm still
getting appearances and stuff like that. So I
still have a little bit of a tie to the fire
service. But you got to really prepare yourself
to retire. It's not like here's a great paycheck
and medical and dental is paid for. And all right,
one minute you're a hero. Next minute, you're
just another old man on the line in the supermarket.
Yeah, I've had a few people of the military community
say that. One minute you're in Somalia or...
Fallujah or whatever. And the next minute you're
in the grocery store and they said, no one gives
a shit what you did before. You're a civilian
at that point. And it's the same with us. It's
like, yeah, you could have been on all these
incredible rescues and fires. And it's amazing
that you were. But once you've taken that uniform
off, you'll know, your crew will know, the people
that you actually affected will know. But everyone
else around you, they don't care. And they shouldn't
care. You're just another member of that grocery
store at that point. But if you've just lived
this identity of this is what I am, you know,
we see those veterans that are plastered from
head to toe with, you know, whatever regalia
from whatever conflict. And that's something
to be very proud of. But at what point does that
become all of you rather than I am a man or I'm
a woman. And I entered this honorable profession
and I served and I loved it. And then I took
the uniform off and then I served in a different
way. I joined a peer support team or whatever
it was. But it can be very, very dangerous if
that's all you have. You're clinging on to the
identity because one day it will be gone. And
the most jarring thing is to realize that the
next shift when you should have been in that
seat, someone else will be and the machine just
keeps on moving. Yeah, there was a line in the
movie The Bronx Tale. Did you ever see that movie?
I think I have. It was a long time ago, though.
Yeah, Chaz Parmentieri, that's what he said to
the young guy when he went to the funeral. He
said, hey, kid, nobody cares. And you hate to
be like that, but nobody wants to hear you used
to be a fireman. Once in a while, you still get
adulation and you still get a little bit of it,
but you yourself, that's all nice, but you yourself
are not part of that action anymore. And that's
the reason I really never wanted to go back and
have a cup of coffee in the firehouse. because
I would see older guys come back and they were,
unfortunately, somebody, some, one of the other
podcast guys did a podcast on that very thing.
How about being respectful to these guys that
come back and want to tell you a story, you know,
instead of like, ah, what are you doing here?
Pops, you're retired, go golf. And I've seen
them be really cruel. I never was, but I saw
them be really cruel to retirees. That stopped
around for coffee. Because in their mind, they're
thinking like, this is the last place I'd ever
want to come if I was retired. Once I'm out of
here, I'm out of here. But they don't really
realize that someday you're going to miss it.
So I did a podcast a little while ago, and they
were asking me for tactical advice. I said, listen,
I'd be more than happy to share that on another
podcast with you. But right now, what I want
to tell you. Young firefighter. They said, yeah,
any advice for young firefighters? I go, yes.
Embrace where you are right now. Because someday
this is going to be gone. Not every minute of
every day, but look around every once in a while.
And say, wow, the smell of this place. The look
of this place. Pulling out of quarters for a
run. Helping somebody. The laughs. The crazy
idiots that you work with. You better embrace
it. Every once in a while. And I actually did.
Every once in a while. You know, yeah, it got
a little boring towards the end. And but every
once in a while, I would jump on the rig and
I would look around and I go, this is the coolest
effing job in the freaking world. You know, and
I would really I would really take it deep inside
and say, wow, this is and this is not going to
be forever. But right now, this is pretty freaking
cool. So that's why I say embrace it. Learn your
job, learn your skills, learn your tactics, keep
in shape, eat right, enjoy your meal, but embrace
it while it's happening, which most people don't
do. With anything, really. Yeah, no, exactly.
You mentioned about people focusing on the forceful
entry and those kind of things, and you're right.
Those are the ones that the hands -on trainings
that are sold out in minutes on a lot of conferences.
A kind of realization that I've had, especially
if you kind of leave New York and extend into
the fire slash EMS departments that a lot of
the other country have, is the frequency of fires,
even during my career, I watched it kind of decline.
And it's sad because, as you said, you want to
be there. You want to have your own war years
experience. This is for a good reason. Fire prevention
and construction have actually made it safer
and safer for the homeowners and the residents,
and the fires are fewer and further between.
So there's this kind of holding on to the identity
of a firefighter, even though if you look at
it statistically, it's a small portion of all
the things that we actually respond to over a
year. And absolutely, you need to be courageous,
whether you're making entry to fire, whether
you're 100 feet up on an aerial, whether you're
cutting on a roof. But where you can affect every
single day is having the courage to actually
address the things that are killing our firefighters.
So being courageously vulnerable with your own
story, fighting for a work week that's healthy.
the contaminants to be taken from your gear.
These are all areas I think that we can be courageous
that don't involve an axe and a halogen. And
sometimes I feel like there's a kind of disconnect
between what a firefighter looks like and, you
know, the kind of perception of who we are on
a fire ground specifically and the equal courage
it takes to be an advocate in your own department
and fight for changes that will actually save.
not only the lives of the people that we're serving
but the actual lives of the people wearing the
uniform yeah but unfortunately you have to be
ready to hear that and you know a 20 a 30 year
old fireman wants to learn about taking a door
he doesn't want to hear that i'm going to be
50 when you're 30 you never think you're going
to be 50. and when you're 50 you don't think
you're going to be 70 and when you're 70 you
don't think you're gonna be 90. they don't think
they're i'm It's not going to happen to me. I
love this job. I'm never going to have PTSD,
and I'm not going to – I can handle anything.
And we all have a breaking point. So I'm not
telling you somebody is hitting your breaking
point, and maybe someday that will – and I pray
for you that it will never happen. But if it
does, I want you to be ready, just like you're
ready to take a door and you know what tools
you need and what you're going to be ready. At
least you have some education. Say, listen, if
this does happen to me or happens to a friend
of mine, at least I have some awareness of it.
Like you can't really focus on it too much. It's
really not a happy subject. Taking a door is
action and you hit the thing and they want to,
you know. But sitting around talking about suicide
is not or, you know, PTSD and that you never
think it's going to happen to you. You know,
listen, if when I was 30, if somebody would have
said to me, you're going to go through 9 -11
and you're going to lose your brother to suicide,
I'd be like, what? And then you might need help.
And I'm like, no, I'm having a ball. I don't
even want to think about it. You know, and if
it does happen, I'll deal with it when it happens.
That's what you think. But you don't have the
tools, just like you don't have the tools to
take a door. You don't have the tools to deal
with it, which is why you go for help. But long
before you get the help, if you have some awareness.
So I like to stick by the thing when I. if I
talk or I give a seminar, I counsel people, I
go, you know, if it's somebody that really cares
about you and they're telling you something,
you might not be ready to hear it, but don't
completely discount it. Put it away someplace
because you may need it at another time. So just
if it's somebody that really cares about you.
and they're doing a seminar or it's somebody
that's taking interest and they say, I know you're
not thinking about dealing, but I'm giving you
some good information. I know you're not ready
to hear it, but put it away someplace that you
can access it when you need it. No different
than taking a door. You might go five years without
ever having to take a door, but then you get
presented with having it and now I don't know
how to do it. It's really the same thing, giving
you some tools. You don't need them right now,
but we're giving you some tools. Because someday,
and I care about you, so put this away. Maybe
you'll need it at another time. Where I found
you can get a foothold on this conversation on
the kind of naysayers is to flip it around to
performance. So a good analogy is the firefighter
that you were talking about earlier, the one
that's very deconditioned, you know, extremely
overweight. You know, if you want to be the best
version of yourself as a firefighter, obviously,
you need to get in the gym, look at your nutrition,
lose some of this weight. And now, oh, my goodness,
now you're freaking crushing it. You're climbing
10 stories. You're barely even breathing hard.
And now you took that door and made the primary.
I think it's the same with the mental health
conversation. If you are fighting for, you know,
the sleep and recovery that you need to perform
at a high level, if you're doing the work, whatever
works for you, it might be meditation or ice
baths or, you know, whatever those things are,
that's going to forge performance. And if you
look at the sporting world, they do all those
things. So thinking that you'll be okay just
doing the same thing with your mental health.
It's the same exact rhetoric as the 300 -pound
firefighter saying, oh, you just wait when the
adrenaline kicks in. I'll be like a bull. You
know, you're kidding yourself from that point
of view. So if you don't think that the mental
health conversation is relevant for you at 25,
30 years old, flip it around. Think about, well,
if you want to be the best firefighter, then
you need to get your mind calm. You can't get
into a flow state with a busy mind. So if you
want to be able to map out that apartment and
you do a right -hand search and actually not
miss that kid under the bed, then this is the
same exact conversation as working on your mental
health and actually processing the trauma as
well. Those two are completely parallel. Agreed.
Agreed. And again, you have to be ready for the
information. It's no different than if you have
any, the AA program, which is wonderful for people
who have alcohol problems. But I remember reading
something. One of these rock stars, I guess,
had a drug and alcohol problem. And he went to
one of these AA or NA meetings and he asked one
of the old timers that had been there for 30
years. And he goes, how do you stop drinking?
And how do you stop using drugs? And he goes,
don't do drugs, go to meetings. The answer is
always simple. Like you just said, you talk to
a 30 -year -old fireman and you say. Could you
ever see yourself committing suicide? They'd
get mad at you. It wasn't even in my wheelhouse.
My own brother. My own brother. 15 years ago,
if I would have said to him, you're going to
crush your family. Me included. And you know
what you're going to do? You're going to park
your car in Cleveland. You're going to drop your
daughter off at school. You're going to drop.
And that's why I like to put a picture of somebody.
I don't have a picture handy of him, but I just
like to put a picture because nobody believes
it's going to happen to them. And he wouldn't
have. If I would have told him 15 years ago,
you're going to park your car, drop your daughter
off at school, park your car in Cleveland. You're
going to walk eight minutes to the highest point
of a bridge and you're going to jump off onto
hard ground, not into water. He'd be like, what?
What are you coming up with this stuff? He'd
probably throw a punch my way. Same thing. I
lost three friends to suicide in the fire service.
And all three of them, I would have said never,
never. And if I would have brought it up to them
15 years ago, they would have been like, don't
even say that to me. You're pissing me off. You're,
you know, I'm going to put myself in the garage,
duct tape the seams of the garage and start the
car and lay it by the tailpipe. Are you kidding
me? That's what he would have said to me. Yet
he did it. Something, something, whatever was
stressing him got to the point of this became
a decision. So when I give seminars, that's what
I try to say. I say how it starts. And I haven't
done one yet. I'm dying to do one. I keep putting
my name out there, but I keep getting turned
down. I'm like, listen, you got a forcible entry
class. I could do that. But why don't we, after
the forcible entry class, have a little 30 minute
session on. preventing this and they're like
no they don't want to you know so i just present
the ptsd thing and they go no thank you very
you know thanks for your application but we're
not doing that you know so it's not that they're
resistant to it i just don't think they're going
to get the numbers you know people are not going
to sign up you know so that's one of the problems
so i try to present it in a light that's a little
bit fun and you know entertaining maybe a little
bit but grievous on on another point because
they Never think it's going to happen to them.
And God, I hope it doesn't. But I want you to
prevent it and I want you to prevent maybe somebody
else from it. And you never know who's going
to be in the right place at the right time. Our
job is about the wrong place at the wrong time.
You could be in the right place at the right
time and say the right thing to somebody to say,
wow, I can't believe I was even considering that.
I've had, I think it's 1 ,050 roughly interviews
now. At least half of those people have been
in that place, I always say. Many of them, thank
God, stopped at the last minute. A few of them
went through with it and they survived their
attempt. Kevin Hines jumped off the Golden Gate
Bridge. Emma Benoit survived a gunshot wound.
And now they're huge advocates for mental health
because the moment Kevin left the bridge, everything
came back and he instantly regretted it. I remember
reading it. Yeah, it's an amazing story. But
as I've listened to so many of these people,
you know, when I was young, like all of us, we
were told that suicide was selfish and cowardly
and how could they and think of your family.
You listen to these men and women that thank
God are here to actually come on a podcast and
share their story and give us some of these warning
signs. through whatever their personal perfect
storm of contributing factors were so unaddressed
things from their childhood you know sleep deprivation
from say you know being a firefighter the trauma
we see at work organizational stress the side
effects of alcohol and pills you know psych pills
even you've got this perfect storm and their
reality is distorted And so many of them, there's
of course the kind of pain that they want to
end, but so many of them also truly believe that
they are the cause for their family's pain. They
are the reason that their family are scared of
them or whatever it is. And so that little voice
of the devil is whispering in their ear that
you're a burden to your family. And if you just
take your own life, everyone will be happier.
And so you and me talking about it here, it makes
no sense because hopefully you and I are sitting
here with a somewhat healthy. mindset at the
moment. But to them, there's this absolute belief
that this is the truth. And so when you think
about that, at that moment, if they truly believe
it, if it's me, and I've worked in a profession
where you would die for a complete stranger.
Our law enforcement have the very mode of execution
on their hip even. If I'm the problem, I'm going
to selflessly and courageously take my own life
for my family. So the shame and guilt that we
put on these people that take their own lives
and how could they? And they just, you know,
they at that moment, people don't realize that
they're not thinking that way. They truly have
been tricked into thinking that they are the
reason and everyone's going to be happier when
they take it. So I think one of the biggest red
flags that just isn't really discussed often.
is when that person talks about being a piece
of shit and the kids are scared of them and I'm
the reason and all this kind of thing, that is
a huge red flag to say, hey, we need to get you
some help. Because adding guilt and shame to
someone who's already drowning in guilt and shame
only just adds another nail to the coffin. Well,
from the studying that I've done, and the training
that i've done that that is one of the factors
but there's several factors and i tried to put
my own spin on it and listen life can get hard
financially physically i mean you could have
injuries you could have physical pain you could
have relationship stuff go wrong financial stuff
go wrong so what i believe my take on it is i
believe that this firefighter first responder
police officer that's in trouble Whatever that
trouble might be, relationship, divorce, financial
issues, health issues. They start saying life
sucks. And listen, I would never take my life.
But if nothing else works out, it's option 20.
But I got 19 options to go. My wife could find
herself and want to stay with me. I could win
the lottery and my financial woes will be over.
The trouble that I get in at the job, maybe it's
not that bad. But then all of a sudden other
things start happening. Daughter doesn't talk
to you anymore. She's mad at you. You have a
fight. Now all of a sudden option 20 becomes
option 15. And it starts moving up the chain.
And now as more and more things start to come
apart or unravel, now it starts to become option
five. When it starts to get close to option one,
then they start thinking the method. Like, all
right, listen, my wife could come back. I could
win the lottery. The IRS is probably going to
get off my back, whatever the issue is. And then
all of a sudden the IRS wants money. And your
wife says, no, I'm leaving you. I can't take
it. I'm having an affair with your best friend.
Now it's option three. And now you've already
said, if I was going to do it, this is how I
would do it. Gunshot, jump off a bridge, pills,
whatever your choice is. Now you've moved it
up the option chain and now you have a way to
do it. Now all you need is one more thing. The
strider broke the camel's back. You show up at
work and they say, I don't know, last time you
were in that medical call that you went on, they're
suing the city and they're suing the firehouse.
Oh, my God, I can't believe this. This is going
to cost me. Now I have more financial woes. You
know what? Maybe this just isn't. And I've thought
about it. Now it's option two. Now you need one
more thing. And then everything, like you were
saying, I don't think, I do hear the burden to
family thing, and maybe they think somehow this
is, but that's also just one of many. And then
it becomes, it's go time. The window goes like
this. And my feeling at the time was, didn't
you know what this was going to do to me when
I get this news, when I get the phone call? But
it's like this. They don't see it. Here's my
options. I am out of options. I guess they're
going to have to figure it out and understand
because it's not that they don't care. They'll
figure it out. I got to do this. I got to do
this. There's no way out of this. And they don't
realize that there are options, which is the
loss of hope. It's crazy because you could have
all kinds of financial trouble and you could
walk into a candy store and buy a lottery ticket
and win a $55 million lottery. And then what?
Now all of a sudden you're going to be and now
you took your life. So it's, you know, it's like
the movie Kelly's Heroes where he goes, stop
with the negative waves. And I say that to people
all the time. Stop with the negative waves. Think
positive. Oh, yeah, right. I'm really going to
win the lottery. You don't know. Oh, yeah, I'm
really going to meet another girl that's as great
as the one I had. Maybe you will. Maybe. Why
do you think you won't? Because I think as human
beings, unfortunately, we project negativeness.
Like you get a letter from the IRS and you're
like, oh, my God, I can't believe it. I pay my
taxes on time. And then you get the IRS letter.
The next letter comes and says you forgot to
sign your return. And people have actually taken
their lives based on getting a letter from the
IRS saying you're going to owe $35 ,000. But
they didn't tell you that. They said you're being
audited. Then you go to the audit. There was
an episode of The Honeymooners. That's what happened
in The Honeymooners. Ralph Grimden went. He was
all worried that the IRS was going to get him.
And it wound up he didn't sign his return. And
there were people that have actually got a letter
from the IRS saying you're going to be audited,
take their life. And the audit was you never
signed your return. Your return is perfectly
fine. You just never signed it. It's hard to
talk about. Even my own brother, he was having,
you know. a few marriage issues some issues with
my family my father and whatnot and so there
really is never a viable reason which is one
of the things i hear from people all the time
that are uneducated about it they'll say firefighter
so -and -so took his life why well he just got
divorced and they go no that's not true because
then everybody that got divorced would kill themselves
so not everybody that gets divorced takes their
life not everybody that gets a letter from the
irs Not everybody gets in trouble with the job.
My friend, if they said, my other friend that
put himself in the garage, he had gotten in trouble
with the fire department for working a second
job without permission. I talked to him. I said,
Tony, the worst that's going to be is they're
going to take your vacation away for one year.
You know, or you'll get some kind of fine or
something. And he must have went home and the
wheels started spinning. There's no way out of
this. I just got divorced. Of course, now I'm
going to lose my job. I go, you're not going
to lose your job. But even if you do, it's not
worth, you know, he devastated all of us the
same way. But they don't think about that. It
just starts, they call it tunnel vision. It starts
to close in like this. And the only option is
I've thought about it. Now I'm going to put it
into action and everybody else is going to just
have to figure it out because I'll be at peace.
Yeah. I mean, it's, again, it's that distorted
thinking, no matter how you frame it, it's, you
know, it's this breakdown of normal, reasonable
thinking, you know, because you could, You could
lose your home. I actually lost my home a few
years ago after my divorce. And we ended up in
an apartment for a while. And we downsized everything.
And you're like, oh, well, we don't need as much
stuff. And then ultimately, under my wife's credit
and side, we ended up getting the home that we're
in now. At the time, you talk about being wracked
with guilt and shame, losing your home as a father,
as a husband. But that was a ripple effect of
a divorce. It is what happens with life. Luckily,
at that point, my mindset wasn't, you know, debilitated.
But if I'd been, you know, during my divorce
when I was also in paramedic school and, you
know, literally barely sleeping for a whole year,
would that have been different? I mean, who knows?
But, you know, this is the thing is why there
are so many tools that we can apply to to hopefully
minimize some of these these detrimental elements
where someone won't make that terminal decision.
You know, like you said, it is a multifaceted
approach. But the one the one that I don't hear
mentioned usually is that burdensome. But of
course, all these other elements are also pieces
of the puzzle. So the more we talk about it,
hopefully the more people listen and go, shit,
I've been thinking about that. I've been thinking
like that. You know, my 20 became a 10 recently.
So I think it's so important to hear, especially
like yourself, from someone who's been directly
impacted by this suicide epidemic. Yes. And then
there's one of the things I've always looked
for, and you might have experienced it yourself,
is the humor that goes along with being a firefighter
is huge. It's huge. They call it gallows humor.
And one of the big signs I see is when they start
to lose their sense of humor. Like, you know,
you know, you get divorced or you get financial
stuff. And, you know, most of the time, most
of the family like F the IRS. I don't give a
damn. Take everything. I don't care. You know,
oh, my wife's a pain in the ass anyway. I didn't
care. Probably better off. Let some other guy
work. You know, but then they start to lose their
sense of humor and it starts to become the woe
is me, you know, thing. So and that was I distinctly
remember saying that to my brother. Because he
was having trouble with his wife, family issues,
whatever. And I said, when did you lose your
firehouse sense of humor? Oh, it's easy for you
to say. You're not going through marital stuff.
And I go, what? You and everybody else have,
what, you're the only person in the world that
ever had divorced? You're the only person that
ever, you know. And that's where group therapy
really helps. Because now you meet other people
that are going through it. And you go, well,
it's not so, I'm not alone in this. Other people
have gone through it. And then you seek advice
from other people that have gone through it.
Just like when my brother took his life, I went
to a support group. And then you say, wow, this
is a lot of other people going through something
similar. Might have been their son, their daughter,
their husband, their wife, their uncle, their
aunt. But wow, other people. And how did they
cope with it? And you just find your way. So
let's fast forward to now. And again, I don't
want to shamelessly promote a cookbook, but for
the 20 -year anniversary of 9 -11, plus I wanted
to put a dedication into my father, who I fought
physically and mentally about getting on the
fire department. So I wrote another book for
the 20 -year anniversary called American Firehouse
Cuisine. And that was for the 20th anniversary
of 9 -11. And I put a dedication to my father,
who I fought violently about getting on the fire
department. And I came to look at it in a different
light. He had four kids commuting to the South
Bronx. And I'll admit in public right now, I
wasn't really that nice to him, considering what
he did for a living. And only because I walked
a mile in his shoes. And I did get to see him
before he passed away a little bit. and maybe
mend the fence a little bit and uh i remember
and part of the reason was like i was single
the whole time if i had a you know my my mother
had some alcohol issues and um wound up dying
tragically in a fire believe it or not in 1981
um and uh we disconnected from him after that
and took me a lot of years to really realize
wow Being a fireman, dealing with the personalities,
the city, everything. And I was single. I mean,
he was dealing with it with four kids and an
alcoholic wife. I couldn't have did it. I don't
know how he did it. I don't know how he did it.
So God bless him wherever he is. Rest in peace.
I'm going to honor him until the day I die. I
put him in the foreword of the book. So that's
the only reason I became a fireman and my brother
became a fireman. And honor to him for being
in the Navy and also being a veteran. And he's
the only reason I'm here today and even doing
this stuff like this. And then I just started
about a year ago. I built a studio here, an old
firehouse. In a warehouse, I built what looks.
And if you go to my website, www .americanfirehousecuisine
.com, I just started doing a firehouse cooking
show. on YouTube. So I have the set looks like
an old New York firehouse. I actually have a
brass pole and I built the deck above the studio.
You slide down the pole to start the show. I
got the best signature entrance of any cooking,
even though I'm not a lister, I'm an L or a W
lister. None of the other chefs get to slide
a pole to start the show. So I'm trying to keep
the tradition of firehouse cooking and the meal
together, healthy meal alive by doing the show.
So it's been a little bit of a challenge to try
to do all of that. And I'm certainly not a TV
star or anything. So I'm looking to do that.
So anybody who's listening, you want to go to
– and the story of 9 -11 is on my website also.
But I just did – I did three episodes already.
And it's a little tricky just talking to a camera.
I want to start having guests because it's easier
with the guests. But I have to make sure they
know how to slide down a pole. At least dead
guests that never made it. I'll have a big lawsuit
for twisted ankles and back injuries from sliding
down the pole. Well, I want to thank you so,
so much. I mean, this story that we've kind of
been led through today, you know, the amazing
work that your father did and this dynamic that
you touched on in the end, you know, and then
some of the things that you saw in uniform and
9 -11 and, you know, now. diving into the mental
health conversation. I know there's so many people
that are going to be moved by it. Like I said,
hopefully some people will even see themselves
in what we've discussed today and realize that
maybe they need to find some help. But most importantly,
thank you for your courageous vulnerability because
this is something that is so needed at the moment.
A lot of our generations were. you know, raising
that kind of, you know, rub some dirt in it,
you know, terminate a Rambo kind of mentality.
And that's not the case. You know, we, it was
compassion and empathy that sent us into uniform.
And sometimes we forget to show it to ourselves.
So I want to thank you so, so much for being
so generous with your time and coming on the
podcast today. Can I, can I just do a shout out?
Absolutely. I just want to honor my first fire
officer in engine 319. who was lieutenant osterman
fantastic fire officer and he taught me so much
and it was a pleasure to work with him that's
one i wanted to put another my father who i just
honored and i want to put a shout out to my lovely
niece my jessica my sister donna and her husband
mike and my two handsome strong nephews nick
and jake so i just want to put a shout out to
them and they'll get a big thrill out of being
mentioned on a podcast. So thank you for that.
And thank you. This has been fantastic. You're
a great host.