This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr, yet
another company that's doing great things for
the first responder community. As a strength
and conditioning coach myself who also trains
tactical athletes, dissemination of wellness
information is one of the biggest challenges.
Now TeamBuildr is the premier strength and conditioning
software for tactical athletes and there are
several features that really impress me. Firstly,
there is a full exercise library. So you, the
personal trainer, does not have to create that
within your own department. Secondly, you can
send out programming, but also individualize,
which I love. So you blanket program for everyone.
Now you can tweak based on someone's injury,
someone's need to maybe drop some body composition,
rather than having to write a program for every
single person on their own. TeamBuildr also
allows you to build custom questionnaires to
collate health and wellness data. It integrates
with wearables. And I think one of the most important
things is obviously it tracks. To me, it's imperative
that we as a profession start tracking our people
from day one and then over the full span of their
career, therefore catching potential wellness
issues and injuries before they happen. Now,
if you want to try TeamBuildr, they are offering
you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast,
a free 14 -day trial to experience all of the
features. And if you want to take a deeper dive
into TeamBuildr, listen to episode 1032 with
Melissa Mercado or go to teambuilder .com. And
I'll spell that to you because it's not as you
think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome
to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,
my name is James Gearing and this week it is
my absolute honor to welcome on the show Lionel
Crowther and Steve Farina. Now both Lionel and
Steve have done so much for our fire service
and their home in the Canadian fire service.
Lionel was my guest with his wife Joanna on episode
215 and then Steve came on on episode 661. In
this conversation today, they came on together
and we had one of the most raw and honest conversations
when it comes to mental health, the absolute
need for courage in leadership positions. the
sphere of influence, and so much more. Now, before
we get to this incredible conversation, as I
say every week, please just take a moment, go
to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
well over 1 ,000 episodes now. So all I ask in
return is that you help share these incredible
men and women's stories so I can get them to
every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. So that being said, I welcome back
onto the show... Lionel Crowther and Steve Farina.
Enjoy. Well, Lionel and Steve, I want to start
by saying welcome back to the Behind the Shield
podcast today. So good to be back. Right on,
buddy. So we both spoke, and I haven't even looked
up the episode numbers, but we've done a podcast
together individually. This is the first time
we're doing it together. I would love to do a
kind of recap, though, because it was quite a
while, certainly, Lionel, since you and I sat
down. So let's kind of jump straight to that.
Can you give us an overview of your journey into
the fire service, any significant events? And
then we'll start kind of addressing some of the
topics that we spent almost 20 minutes discussing
before we hit record. So Lionel, first with you,
tell us where you're from and then your journey
into the fire service. Certainly, James. Lionel
Crowther. I'm at 27 years in the fire service
now. I started with. a small town where i grew
up as a volunteer and then thankfully married
a winnipeg girl and i so i had to get on in winnipeg
so winnipeg fire for the last 25 years i'm a
station captain now and very fortunate throughout
the years within my service here what really
brought us together was i was a part of a line
of duty double line of duty death in 2007 the
anniversary was just last week on february 4th
Really changed our whole world, not just our
personal life, but also career life. Really affected
our family. That call really did come home and
resonate for a long time. Many different challenges
we never expected. But that's what really brought
us all three together was that incident. Really
connecting with Steve Farina, with their Loon
Lake, their resiliency program for firefighters.
Changed my life again. Really saved it. And very
fortunate for that, which created a wonderful
brotherhood and friendship with Steve. And then
again, meeting James a couple years after. And
understanding that there's so much more to the
fire service than just what was happening. I'm
thankful for all that you both do. And especially
that there is something that we can do ourselves,
not just as a department, but individuals. That's
me in a nutshell. And just staying on you, talk
to me about the organizations that you work with
as far as fire ground survival and burn injured
firefighters. Sure. After that incident, they
opened up a whole new world to me of what the
fire service is. Initially, in 2009, I was appointed
to burn foundation coordinator for Central Canada,
the 13th district of the IFF. So very fortunate
with that, working with 16 other burn coordinators
across North America for assisting any burn injury,
and especially burn injured firefighters within
the IFF. And also those that are unable to be
part of a local, we assist them as well. So a
wonderful organization, which led me to understanding
what a burn survivor is and accepting that I
have now become a burn survivor, not a burn victim.
So very powerful those few years. And then after
that, I also joined the fire ground survival
program through the IFF as a master instructor.
All those things that happened to us that evening
when we were trapped and we lost Captain Lessard
and Captain Nichols, I found through the program
there was a lot of problems that we had and the
program had solutions. So it was a very rewarding,
but also... inspiring program to be in because
I found that we can actually do something about
these problems that we're having on the fire
ground and then being able to go and teach about
it and be open because I wasn't always able to
do that here here in Winnipeg initially you know
so which led to another working with the Phoenix
Society of Burned Survivors because not only
was I a firefighter struggling without it really
knowing my identity at this point I realized
that there's many other firefighters that were
burn survivors going through the same thing.
So we started working on a peer support program
specific for burn injured firefighters and their
families, which was very inspiring and very uplifting
because we found out that you didn't have to
be alone anymore. I love that part of it because
many of us struggled with that sense of identity
that you sort of lose for some time. When you
look at yourself, you don't realize that. you've
changed and you really really hope for that life
to come back as a firefighter realizing that
um i think there's strength there and and to
go through trauma and make it through trauma
really gave us a great gift to become a survivor
it's accepted eventually it took some time which
led again to another program which we now work
on which is a firefighter burn survivor retreat
that we just got home from in colorado from an
adaptive sports center. Some of our firefighters
have nerve damage, burn injuries, amputations,
limitations that are from their incidents, and
especially not just the physical, but the mental.
So now every year for the last 13 years, we've
been running a Firefighter Burns Forever Retreat
in Crested Butte, Colorado, with a great ensemble
of people that make it happen, from the D .C.
Burn Foundation, Jason Woods, Charlie Shia. and
my good friend luis navarez from tillery california
so we we host that together it was inspirational
it was so powerful very emotional uh takes us
all back to our injuries no matter how far they
are um there's always something that we can work
on i believe and we got to mentor and and hold
up many of our first these last few years especially
the the crews we had last week there was from
chief officers right down to firefighter we had
all the company officers ranks and uh really
forged a wonderful crew for our week in crested
butte last week so i'm pretty motivated right
now and inspired so i'm ready to roll this week
beautiful and yeah one more i got a little bit
of work with ul the fire safety research institute
i'm on the the attack committee the training
advisory committee which is a wonderful opportunity
for myself but also to educate another thing
that we can do is educate our members of why
we do things not just telling them tasks tell
them the strategy understanding why with data
research something that we can actually show
there is a difference of why we need to be fighting
fires the way we are so I think I got it absolutely
perfect that was a good overview thank you all
right Steve same to you my brother you are you
humble me man uh and lionel you're not a burn
survivor man you're a burn thriver and you are
yeah i i'm you humble me sir the stuff that you
do and your story is so impactful and i reflect
back on how we got connected like yes 2007 and
i was thinking about you this month and that
is, it's always in the forefront of my brain
around this time of year, because 10 years, it
took you 10 years to reach out to me and connect
and ask for help and come through our firefighter
resiliency program when we first started that.
So that was 2017, February. And to see you now,
man, man, it makes me so proud to see how far
you've come and how much you've grown as a human
being. So, so my role, I've been in the fire
service for Over 30 years now, 32 years paid
on call for five, 27 years in career. I'm an
engine captain on engine one in Coquitlam and
just a little suburb of Vancouver and British
Columbia here. And I have had a career, an unexpected
journey. I just watched The Hobbit yesterday.
So I had an unexpected journey in the fire service
because I got involved in the union world. and
became part of the union executive and was a
voice and an advocate for health and safety for
18 years of my career. And then I got into the
provincial world and lobbying and higher level
stuff and wanting to make a difference and never
ever thought in a million years that I would
be in that stream. So dual role firefighter by
day and union executive by night kind of thing.
And that has opened up a ton of doors and opened
up my eyes and made connections like literally
around the world. And that has been such a privilege
and an honor to do that, advocating for mental
health and other initiatives. And that's what,
you know, that's what kind of introduced Lionel
and I is helping people. We've had 343 firefighters.
How about that number? I think of 9 -11 and that.
the importance of that number, that's how many
people we've put through our program. And today
starts our next program. We're having other eight
firefighters coming through. It's a three and
a half day retreat. It is group, it's intensive
group work, but it's, it's a life changing endeavor
if you put your energy into it and it puts people
onto trajectories of health and growth like Lionel.
And so super proud to be part of that with blueprint
and the two doctors that are involved with that
directly. So. and i hear talk about where i was
i listened to our conversation james and where
i was when we first chatted to now i am two months
away from retirement and and looking at the next
chapter of my life and what i want to do with
it and i don't want to i'm not hanging up my
fire helmet as we were talking about earlier
before the call is that i want to know i want
to keep on doing i want to have meaning and purpose
and i kind of want to focus on the next chapter
of my life on passing on what my experiences
and have been and and really talk to leadership
and human resources and anyone that basically
touches our world a little bit on educating about
what our culture and and how to do it better
how to leave it better than they find it so that's
it man i'm so excited for this conversation you
have no idea all right i'm just gonna dip my
knuckles in broken glass and we'll begin okay
All right. Well, go back to start with something
I think that's really important. And this is
definitely kind of, you know, uplifting, positive
element. Steve's, you know, observation of Lionel's
journey, I think, underlines this. But where
I feel in the firefighter mental health conversation,
the where we've got, as I say, our trouser leg
caught on is the word stigma. We've got to smash
the stigma. When I listen to, you know, I mean,
in the podcast, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds
of people that have been through this crucible,
they've been to this dark place. Some of them,
you know, actually went through their suicide
attempt and survived. Is when they found that
toolbox that worked for them and they did the
work, there was a more, I mean, we use the word
resilient a lot, but a 2 .0, a better version
of themselves, a different version than before
all that stuff happened. but I would argue a
better version of themselves. To me, that conversation
puts hope into the mental health conversation.
Whereas right now, you know, there are some people
out there making a career of walking around and
talking about how they live with their PTSD.
I'm doing air quotes now, not casting shade on
those individuals, but that's kind of where we've
caught. So talk to me about post -traumatic growth.
Talk to me about the hope. of the person you
become when you found that toolbox and you do
the work. Yeah, that's a great way to start because
getting a diagnosis of post -traumatic stress
disorder feels like it felt like a death sentence
when we initially got it. And it was like one
more thing that went wrong, that it feels like
an uncontrollable thing that you cannot get away
from, that you're going to carry the rest of
your career, like Steve always talks about is
the backpack we carry. And it was like one more
big bowler got thrown in there. But then finding
something that worked specific for me, it may
not work for everyone, but when we found that
one thing, it led to something else. And it really
did truly make me a better man going through
this. These are things that I hope when we do
speak on this and when people listen to these
conversations we have, understanding that there's
a way for them, not... A blanket, like a check
sheet that you're going to get and you're going
to go through it. And this is what you're going
to get at the end. Everything was so specific
to my character and also my, my, what my path
was. It was, it was so rewarding because we found
it worked. I loved what happened. I honestly
did. Because it was hard and it was, it was a
challenge because we had to step outside of the
norm. and especially on the path that we were
given right you we had to do something that was
so unique to my need um that's where i think
i got the ownership from because we we found
one root one vein here that worked and then all
of a sudden it stopped and then we had to find
okay when that one song okay if i listen this
one song it's amazing it feels great i feel good
that's what i have to do to relax or get through
that one Then that song stopped working. Okay,
I just go to the gym. Just go to the gym, pound
it out, get some adrenaline going, blast through
it, feel good. All of a sudden, the gym stopped
working, right? So all these things, we had to
find things, especially through the phases that
we were going through because it wasn't just
one phase and you're good. Okay, now I move back
to work. I'm good. It wasn't like that. That's
where I'm so thankful that there's many options
for many firefighters now. It's not just one
thing. It's like take that one pill and you're
good to go. And hey, you're going to be blasting
back and you're back to your ops or wherever
you decide to go. There's so many great options
and transitions that we have for firefighters
across North America now that I believe we can
really start making a difference through this
stigma that we still have. Absolutely. Steve.
I'm glad you're talking about this stigma because
the reason why I got into the mental health world
was because of two back -to -back suicides seven
weeks apart in Surrey. That launched me into
this world and there was followed by additional
suicides. And basically, it came out of the shadows
that there's some real serious problems in the
first responder world in the fire service. And
we shone a light on it. And it was ugly. And
there was people that are hurting. And there
was shame holding people back from reaching out.
And they were scared and to be judged. And so
all of those things. And we still have it today.
And that's what frustrates me is that we've done
so much to create resources and to change that
narrative that this is not a death sentence,
as Lionel calls it. And I know you've reframed
that in your brain, but we have to look at it
as an injury. It's an injury to the soul, injury
to the heart, and to your brain. and that it's
recoverable with the right resources and community
and i think that's what we focus on is there
is hope and you know so many people are worried
about looking at pandora's box right you're gonna
all those rocks that you have in those backpack
but when dr cool and i talk about pandora's box
is what's at the bottom of it hope and if you
have the right resources and connections and
support you can unpack all of that delicately
and repack it in a way that you have growth And
that you are a better person. And it kind of
reminds me of that Japanese art where you take
that broken pottery or whatever and you repair
it. That kintsugi, I think it's called. Is that
right? Like where they use gold to mend things.
Like you are stronger for that experience. So
it happened. Like what happened to Lionel, it
made him a stronger human being. But it took
him going through the fire, literally. to come
out this other side stronger. And I, you know,
it's sound may sound cliche, but you gotta, you
gotta put the hard work in, you gotta get through
it. You can't avoid it. You can't people, you
know, they don't want to be uncomfortable, right?
So they avoid the pain, but you actually literally
have to go through that. And I've helped so many
people through the tunnel. Like I don't see a
light at the end of the tunnel, or it's the fricking
train coming at me a million miles an hour. Well,
you gotta go through it and to get to the other
side. You know, Lionel, you talk about this.
It's like this mental health cha -cha, right?
It's not a linear journey. I'm, I'm injured and
I get healthy. It is a fricking rollercoaster
of hell. And I've been on Lionel's rollercoaster.
I've been beside him and we've been looking at
each other like, ah, holy shit. And it hasn't
been awesome, right? And I look at the impact
on family, Joanna, your boys, your girl, like.
Like there's a whole bunch of people along for
the ride, but if we can do it shoulder to shoulder,
fuck man, we can get through anything together.
Yeah. Especially when you realize that you don't
always have to be the one that's driving. Like
it's okay to take a side, sit in the back some
days and just, okay, it's okay to listen here.
Jesus, take the wheel. Yep. Here you go, brother.
But that's what I mean. Like everyone feels it
has to be them. Individual going through this.
And that's where I find we can't. I realize that
sometimes I learn more when I listen versus sitting
there talking to an individual. I don't think
many people are going to be buying the pictures
in the gift shop of your roller coaster. No.
It's going to be like a slingshot. no but this
is what's interesting and steve i've used that
analogy many times because i think not only are
you stronger then people go wow that gold glue
is kind of cool tell me about it oh it was when
i was going through this thing oh you went through
that i've been going through some stuff myself
and now you see this person as a beacon so i
think For a selfless servant that a first responder
of law enforcement officer or soldier, all these
people are, not only are you going to get yourself
better, but now you are truly become more of
an asset, whether it's your men and women that
you work with coming out of the shadows and saying.
hey, I need help or simply being on a call and
having that extra empathy and compassion for
the homeless gentleman or the addicts, you know,
where people are saying it's a waste of Narcan
and you've been through hell and you're like,
what are you talking about? This is another human
being that's struggling. So there's so much,
I think, to be excited about on the other side
of this work. But like you said, it's interesting
because it's dynamic. If you look at food intolerances,
one of my guests was talking about this. you're
just not intolerant to gluten and that's it you
know there's a growth now you can start bringing
some of these foods in as you get your gut healthier
and healthier and healthier so it is this kind
of undulation of of this journey but seeing that
pot with the gold glue really is the kind of
um flame for the moths and i mean that you know
compassionately to start coming towards you and
going how the hell did you do that yeah and there's
uh one of the compassion dogs in our area is
called the name of the dog is beacon and you
kind of it is a beacon and and lionel is so inspirational
because he is he is the epitome of working hard
and getting through the fire and getting on the
other side right and that sharing his sharing
his story whether it's fire ground survival or
at a conference as a headliner or like that provides
permission to others to go hey i can do that
too and that that's the inspirational piece is
that that we say it's like, share it, don't wear
it. So you're, you're sharing your story, but
it also, it's people, you know, gives people
hope, man, like seriously. And you don't want
to become this wounded healer where you haven't
sorted your shit out. And you're just like, you're
living through other people and helping other
people and not taking care of yourself. But,
but having that lived experience, I shared experience
that all three of us have. That's what, that's
what bonds us. Trauma bonds us, but it can be
in a really good and positive way. Yeah. And.
That's the biggest thing I hope people see is
not me as an individual. I hope they see the
team, like it's a village that raised and got
us through it. It wasn't just me. It was so many
great people, like what James has done for me,
what Steve has done for me, Duncan, Dave, so
many other survivors, Mayday survivors, and people
that have never been through it also. They just
took care of us when we needed them. But also
I had some good people that gave me the good
push when you needed it to. It's not just sit
there, put the bandaid on and just let me sit
there and wallow in self -pity. Some people were
great where they said, no, you got to do this
yourself. This is going to be hard, but you have
to do it. So I hope you see and some of your
viewers see that as well as to acknowledge the
fact it's going to be hard. And who do I need?
at this point? And also, what's my break? Because
you can't just go forward all this. You do have
to take that break when it's necessary to acknowledge,
which I didn't do for the first many years, like
Steve said, 10 years, to acknowledge the fact,
look how far I've come. Like I never took pictures
of my burns. And to go back, I don't remember
what they're like now, right? Because they've
healed. And in many ways. I hope you can see
and hear that it's worth the journey. It is going
to be hard, but you have to have the team that's
going to carry you because some people have moved
on from working with us because they were part
of that phase and we had to move in different
directions to grow. And when I heard the term
Judy Knighton from Toronto, this amazing lady
that worked at the Burns Centre at Sunny in Toronto
there, she came. talked to me at one of the burn
conferences about post -traumatic growth and
when i heard the term and she explained it it
was the next phase it was wonderful to hear that
that we do not have to deal with something that
is forever like post -traumatic stress disorder
is not and i truly believe that that we can use
the all these mechanisms that we have to get
through this disorder that we're so plagued with.
And growth is what we have. Like, I can honestly
say I'm a better man because of this incident.
I don't know what I would have been like. I actually
talked with Joanna about it. I wonder what it
would have been like. Would we still be together?
You know, all these things of life, when you
don't have a challenge, we get complacent. But
now I truly, I truly... I'm so thankful for my
wife, my family, my friendships, the brotherhoods,
sisterhoods that we have. And that's where we
need to show that more, maybe talk a little bit
more about the growth that happens through trauma,
through the challenges, through the stresses.
Just like a muscle, how does a muscle grow? You
rip it, you tear it, and then it builds, right?
So that's where we're headed. We're not stuck.
Beautiful. I'll give you an analogy. I hurt my
back. I ripped and tore ligaments and tendons.
Well, I guess the ligaments, excuse me. When
I was lifting a patient, panic attack a patient
in a hypervent, not really going to die or anything
like that, but it was just a Murphy's law. It
was a straw that broke the camel's back. So I
ended up tearing my back, was out of work for
months. again, what you're presented with is
pills and surgery. And I'm like, no, no, no,
we're not going down that road. So I ended up
doing PT right off the bat, chiropractic out
of my own pocket. And then I found this thing
called foundation training. And it's just this
movement practice that the founder of her is
back. And he was a chiropractor himself and a
physical, excuse me, a personal trainer. And
he developed this using yoga and Pilates and
some other things. And it worked. Like it worked
so well. My healing went from, you know, five
degrees to 45 degrees. And on the other side,
I ended up doing a firefighter fundraiser. And
one of the events was deadlifting 225 10 times
with a burpee in between. And it was fine. And
then because the point was, it wasn't that you
just got hurt. You went back and go, well, why
did I get hurt? Why did that call? you know have
me in a corner or drinking every night or whatever
it was or that that collection that death by
a thousand cuts where where can i strengthen
it and so when i went and addressed all the muscle
imbalances and the postural issues and then i
allowed it to heal the other side i was a stronger
athlete and touch wood that was uh you know over
10 years ago now and like at 50 years old and
we're still dead lifting like over 300 pounds
in the gym at the moment I'm not a strength athlete.
That's just a normal lift for the programming.
My point is that injury made me stronger. If
that had never happened, I probably would have
declined because of all these imbalances or got
hurt in a different way. So doing the work is
figuring out, well, why did I get hurt? Okay,
let me fix those things. Now I'm going to continue
to get stronger and stronger. Well, seeing that
when someone goes through an incident, The acceptance
of it, the responsibility of it, all those things
have a huge impact on your path, like what is
going to be the mechanism, what did cause it.
And I think when we can show our firefighters,
when they take that responsibility to move forward,
I think that's where we're going to start eliminating
some of that injury and stigma. Taking that initial,
what's my role in this and how was I involved?
I saw it last week where some of our crews that
came to the Fire to Burn Survivor Retreat, talking
about their incidents naturally and bringing
it up and processing right in front of us, all
peer -based because everyone there, there was
such trust, but because everyone had been through
something. Like all our crews, all our crews
responded to that call that it looked like someone
they knew or it was identifiable from a family
member. or child. So being peer based, I think
is like you said, your, your visit or your therapist
that you worked with, with that program had been
through a back injury. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's
interesting. I love listening to you guys because
you both have these experiences, right? So it's
like, choose your own adventure. So you can.
you can focus on the negative like battle the
mindset that bias that negativity bias it's so
intrinsic in human beings but especially first
responders so we have this just because of what
we've experienced and witnessed in life you can
get a very strong negativity bias you have an
injury like that happen if you and lionel talks
about this growth mindset super is it cliche
like mindset mindset mindset but it's there's
something to that there's that the psychology
of a positive mindset and being grateful and
focusing your energy on healing and growing and
beginning better, like you did, James, with your
back. It's like you came out the other side and
you're stronger. But if you had just focused
on why did this happen to me and all that, and
you spiral and get stuck in this loop. And that's
where I catch so many people now in this, I call
it, are you getting them upstream and then you're
refocusing and re -diverting them so that they
don't go over the waterfall? Or are they over
the waterfall and they're in with the logs or
in that churn and they're just getting pummeled
and they can't get out of that. And that's where
I find so many people is that there's negativity
biases so strong that they are hyper vigilant.
They don't trust anybody. They've lost all those
connections because people are rowing upstream
and away from them. And they're just like, holy
shit, you went over the waterfall. You've interviewed
so many people, James, that have gotten through
to that other side. And it's not one magic. silver
bullet like what is the common theme that you've
seen here here i'm interviewing you now what's
the common theme you've had over a thousand people
you've interviewed man like what do you what
is it what is it keeping people focusing on the
good i mean one of the things is hope like we
were talking about it's belief actually i just
shared a video today i don't know if you saw
it but it was a high school football player These
kids are about to run in the touchdown. This
little freaking human bullet comes from like
the halfway line past all of his friends, snatches,
doesn't even tackle, just snatches the ball from
the guy that's about to score a touchdown, turns
on a dime and then runs that damn thing the length
of the football field the other way. And the
reason I put the post out there was like, this
is when you believe in yourself. No matter the
apathy and, you know, lack of care about around,
not that this team didn't care, but. if we're
referring to the fire service as we hit you know
talk before we hit record and know we're going
to get into there's a lot of shoulder shrugging
and oh well it's the way it always been you know
when you believe that um you know that you can
get better i think that is a superpower really
do um but then also it's it's the mentors so
for lionel it was it was steve you know it was
all these other people that yes you believe but
you're still lying on the floor bleeding So it's
also the people that have got to pick you up
and patch you up. And then it's dark. So someone's
going to got a torch and like, okay, this is
the way we're going to go. And then, like you
said, it's a bumpy road, but for all the people,
it was, it was that, that hope that last piece.
And this is what's so sad when you hear so many
people that were right at that dark point, you
know, I've talked about this on the show all
the time, because I want to make sure this point
is understood. If you hear about. people who
were there, like at that darkest place. When
we were all young, we were told that suicide
was cowardly and selfish and think of the family
and how could you? And you listen to these men
and women. And through the perfect storm of all
these issues that led them there, unaddressed
childhood trauma, sleep deprivation, the trauma
they saw at work, organizational betrayal, alcohol,
side effects of psych drugs, all the things.
their reality has been distorted. So they truly
believe that they are the reason for their loved
one's pain. I hear it almost every single time.
And so now they're at this point where they're
like, they have no hope left. They're actually
being selfless and courageous and saying, well,
if I'm the reason for the pain, I'm going to
end the pain for my family. So then someone says,
think about your family. Like I already fucking
am, you know? So. that is where the hope is gone
so for me the hope is is getting to that person
before they get to that point and saying you're
not a burden we can get you through this i know
so many people that have been to this same dark
place and they found their way out and that's
what they had whether it was a phone call from
a wife whether it was a dog walking into the
room there was something that snapped him out
of it and then they were able to lean into boulder
crest psychedelics you know whatever their journey
was and so i think this is the reoccurring theme
is apart from the absolute anomalies the true
terminal depressions that we hear about everyone
else you know there is a path but it's like how
do you find it and if there's guilt and shame
in your department and if you're overworked and
understaffed And then, you know, the options
are an EAP and you phone eight of them and they
either don't even answer the phone or they've
never worked with a first responder before. You
know, you're just getting hit again and again.
And there's a Jenga collapse. But if you have
the right people around you and they're able
to pick you up and lead you and be like, look,
here's a forest. I don't know what path is going
to be the right one for you, but we've got so
many things in here that are healing. And now
we'll find it in this clinician. They've worked
with first responders. They understand us. There
used to be a firefighter or a cop, whatever it
was. So I think it's, and I've kind of monologued
a bit, but it's all of these elements together.
But the first thing is just being there to stop
that person thinking they're a burden in the
first place. And the second thing is to give
them hope. And giving them hope is, for example,
someone like Lionel Crowther saying, let me tell
you a story about what happened in February of
2007 and where I am today. So I think that's
the biggest thing. When you have this courageous
vulnerability, when you create an environment
for people to say, I'm struggling, and not just
empathize, but say, let's, you know, hold my
hand. I'm going to take you to the first step,
the first level. I think that is how we change
it. Because right now, so many of our men and
women are just put into these chaotic programs,
whether it's EAP or a poorly run peer support.
Sadly, a lot of them will never be on the show
because we've already lost them. Yeah. And there's
so much guilt. Even though, say, we didn't even
connect with them, we hear of another firefighter
that does commit suicide. And it feels like we
missed that opportunity. I truly believe if we
could just have that moment with them of that
day or that night, whenever it's... going to
their their last step but that they're going
to go through with their plan uh just to have
that conversation of just to be able to say i
understand what you're going through i've been
there and if we could do that a little bit better
i i'd love to work with a team of people that
we can help those those firefighters there at
that last step of that they just can't take it
anymore lionel in fire ground survival like we
talk about situational awareness and doing a
360 and And this I think this applies because
if you truly want to get upstream, you have to
have you got to have situational awareness about
your organization, but it's your people and and
having eyes on the outliers and and being attuned
to that people that are withdrawing or going
down that rabbit hole. And, you know, you said
it, James, it's like this hope is that that seems
to be the spark that ignites. But you have to
have hope is not a plan. You have to have the
forest. You have to have the mental health Sherpas.
You have to have all those resources, the psychedelic
programs, whatever it is, the host of resources
that you can connect them to. But the main theme
here is to meet people where they're at. And
this is what I've been doing lately is I've had
a lot of people over the freaking waterfall right
now, which is shocking. But when I say I see
you, like I see you and I hear you. And I can
relate because I've been there and done that.
That is such a lightning rod if they take it.
Because then if they feel seen and they feel
heard, then they have hope and that you understand.
And then you build trust again. Because what
happens with a lot of these people is they've
lost trust. They've lost trust in their union
executive, the people around them, the organization.
And how do you build trust with someone that's
lost trust or lost all hope? And to me, it's
that. Empathy times 100 level where you crawl
down in that dark hole with your little flashlight.
And sometimes you need a maglite to give them
a whack against the head. But it's that. It's
giving them that hope that you talk about, man.
And I'm not religious in any manner, but I was
talking to my girlfriend earlier this morning
about what I was going to chat about on this.
And it's like, I've been to a lot of funerals
where... You know that footsteps in the sand
kind of analogy? And it's like, where were you,
God? You've left me. And it's like, well, I was
actually carrying you. And that's what we need
to do with some of these people is we need to
be sitting beside them, steering the bus. We
need to be shoulder to shoulder with them. We
need to carry them sometimes to get them back
on their feet. And I think that's incumbent upon
all of us as human beings is being the mentor,
being the peer, being the kind of person that.
you know, was there for me in my darkest times.
And it's a give back. So I love what you're doing,
man. You're getting this, the conversation that
both of you are doing. It's admirable. Well,
it's part of it, Steve, what you're doing there,
like you've been such a support to so many and
then acknowledge the fact you, you went and got,
went through the program yourself is huge for
acceptance and also being honest, huge. Because
I remember when they said take a knee, the program
or the slogan that they were using, take a knee,
just like the footsteps in the sand of we carry
our people, but we have to show them how to get
up. We have to be able to show them how to weight
bear again and get up from taking the knee, how
to get back, is it back to operations or just
back to their life first? And that's where those
models are really coming out now. where they
can start taking the weight, but they still have
that support if they do go down again. There's
not like a three -strike rule and you're done.
But we have to strengthen those muscles to be
able to stand up again and take the weight and
then become the mentor. Like, how do you want
to move into a peer role? Do you want to become
the mentor? Maybe get involved with the programs
and be an instructor. All these ways, there's
not just go back to your normal because you will
never go back to normal. You're going to become
a different person. But we have to show that
we can become better. You're not going to let
that incident direct your rest of your life.
Or it's the many incidents that we go to. But
if we can show our crews that all those traumas,
all those things that they experience throughout
your career, that is actually building a very
human. Because empathy and compassion are one
of the most strongest things that we have. And
I truly believe I'm better for it. When we have
these calls and we can go back in our truck on
the way back and become who we are again, that's
the goal, right? That's the goal we should be
striving for is that we don't lose the sense
of self just because I'm a firefighter, right?
If I can become a better community man, a better
person for my family and show them the strength
that why did I get on the job? Like I mentioned
earlier about Chris Pardee from Phoenix. He uses
that slogan and his term he uses is live your
interview, right? Not just to get on the job.
I'm like, hey, that's it. I'm in the union. I'm
safe. I'm never going to be fired again. I'm
going to become, at the end of my career, I'm
going to remember what I said to get on. And
am I still doing that? And also, am I the example
that I wanted on the job? All right. Let me ask
you. devil's advocate question because this is
really what just nauseates me at the moment.
And I did a piece I put out last week on cowardice
being the unspoken cancer of the fire service.
And it wasn't the guy that won't go into the
fire because he bled his tank out on the way
to the call. It's the lack of action by our people
to advocate for themselves, their own family,
but also if they're higher up for their. their
um fire department locally here the department
that protects my family they had four suicides
in four years all young guys a fifth one that
was an attempt where he survived but that was
swept completely under the rug and then a sixth
one who had left the department done a almost
full career and then he just was recently at
another department ended up taking his own life
There is so much resistance and apathy to any
kinds of change. They even were part of this
thing called the Blue Sky Project done by this
human performance company that works with NASA
and DARPA. They said 24 -72 is your number one.
What are you doing? You're killing your people.
And still nothing. And I just got a nasty gram
from the chief the other day because he didn't
like my piece at all. And it wasn't aimed at
any one particular person. So what does that
say? You just looked in the mirror, motherfucker.
But, you know, I'm saying this because I don't
James Gearing doesn't understand how you can
lose four of your current active duty members
and have a fifth one that you almost lost and
do nothing about it. Like the funerals that I
went to with my friends are what made me go and
start this podcast and ultimately carry on for
free with no pension, no pay, no health care,
because I'm so moved by these deaths. Why is
it that some of these people in departments are
so unmoved by the very brotherhood that we're
supposed to be a part of dying in droves? I'd
love to jump in, man. There it's it's ego. And
I and I hate to. And I don't hate to say it.
That's been my experience. It literally boils
down to ego. Now, whether you are egocentric
or a sociopath or narcissistic or whatever label
you want to give it, it's truly it's ego that's
getting in the way of this. And there's that
great artist that Paul Coombs that does those
pieces where he does this mental health one.
It just makes me think of this. It's a guy in
water drowning and all of these anvils of shame.
pride, ego, right? They're dragging them down.
And this is what's holding the fire service back
and the first responder world back is that you
got to check your freaking ego. If you have four
people dying within four years, if you crashed
four fire trucks, you would be doing an investigation
of a great proportion. If you had two trucks
come in, if you had a guy fall off the roof.
fall off a ladder, get burned in a fire. You're
going to do a post -incident analysis. You're
going to do an accident investigation. You're
going to find out root cause issues. If you can't
check your freaking ego to say root cause is
we have a toxic culture. We have a shame -based
culture. People are afraid to reach out. People
are afraid to speak out. Or you haven't dealt
with the childhood shit before they got hired
or anything else in between them and the fire
service. And now you got to check your fucking
ego, man. because that just doesn't happen in
a silo, right? And it's not just the responsibility
of the fire chief. It's every single person from
the union executive, or if you're non -unionized,
all the way down to the probie firefighter. You
said it. Everyone is responsible. And Lionel
and I talk about this, about extreme ownership
all the time. Check your ego, take extreme ownership,
and do something about it, right? Swallow your
pride and freaking do something about it. Because
if you're in a position of authority and like,
I would go to fricking city council and the mayor
and say, if it's a money issue, give me a fuck.
But I would use my own goddamn credit card to
fix the problem. Right. And to me, it's like,
how invested are you? You got five stripes, step
up and leave. And that's the bottom line. And
I know we, I'm going to go on a fricking rant
here because how long have we been having these
conversations? Right. I've been doing this work
since 2016. okay that's not a lot in people's
world but maybe even for me that's it's a long
time that's not to see significant change in
some of these leaders where i'm like how many
people have to die before you get your head out
of your ass honestly like one person like where's
the value even if you look at it from a monetary
side like what's your return on investment spend
100 grand on your department on something and
you're gonna see massive return you don't buy
a fire truck And not buy new tires for it and
change the brakes and change the oil and let
it rust to shit and fall apart. People are your
biggest asset. And if you don't invest the time
in them, you're throwing away years of experience,
years of institutional knowledge, all of that
investment and time and energy to recruit them
and retain them. And they're just dying year
to year. Like that's a fucking problem. So check
your goddamn ego. And I'm here to help. I've
got solutions. And you do as well. So that's
the biggest thing is, like, I don't know, it's
check your pride and just ask for help. And that's
this meet you where you're at and move forward.
Yeah. It's that lack of responsibility, like
you said, Steve. We have many, many, they call
themselves leadership teams that are running
these departments that are not taking that responsibility
of, their own, either it's their portfolio, their
resume, whatever they are standing behind. I
get very frustrated with it because there's so
many solutions. There's so many solutions across
the fire service, but each year they're being
siloed and they're going, well, we have to step
outside the box and ask for help from another
agency. That means we're not doing our job. Is
that what the problem is? Or is it the fact that
they just don't know that they exist? Are these
chiefs conferences that they're having where
they can give themselves awards for doing such
a great job, really not looking outside the box
of asking their people, am I doing a good job?
Instead of going outside to all these places
and getting these great accolades, why don't
they ask their people first? How do you think
we're doing? Do you feel supported? What can
I do for you next? How many people have asked?
I know actually a few chiefs, and Steve, you
know them too, that actually do this. And I think
we need to hear more from them. We need to hear
from great leadership, people that are called
leaders by their people, not by themselves. But
I'm thankful. I am so thankful that I work with
people here in Winnipeg that don't need a rank
to lead a crew. Like, we have such amazing people
right now. striving for excellence in ops, people
that are trying to lead from their crews, no
matter what rank they are, of supporting them
in their mental health struggles. And we have
a whole new leadership team with our union right
now and an amazing young man, Nick Casper, that
is stepping up because he had to, because he
saw what was going on in our department, and
he is someone I look up to. It doesn't matter
rank. And these people are doing a great job.
And it's not about blame, but it's about taking
responsibility, right? So take the reins, like
honestly. Yeah, we need that. And thankfully,
we do have some people right across North America
that are stepping up because we drastically need
someone that is going to change what's going
on. And that's where, thankfully, I feel I have
a great team of people that support the movement
of what we want to do. Unfortunately, I wish
I could do it perfectly and do it well, but we're
still making some mistakes, but we're making
saves. And I think that's what we have to concentrate
on and really explore more about the models that
we're using. How can we be more accessible? That's
the biggest problem we have right now is accessibility.
And how can we get through it? Is it fundraising?
Is it sponsorships? All these organizations that
make money off the fire service, how are they
giving back to us? And is there a way to use
that more? Because our firefighters, Winnipeg,
we're one of the lowest paid in Western Canada,
right? But one of the busiest departments in
Canada. So how can we support our crews without
having to use the lack of benefits that we have
and get the proper health that they need and
mental health care? That's what I want to see
next. How can we make it where it's not going
to be? Well, the kids play hockey, so I can't
take an extra session with our therapist. Right.
So all these things we need accessibility without
any strings attached. So, James, you call it
cowardice. I know and I know you're trying to
it's a call to action because, you know, I try
to approach things where. It's about collaboration
and cooperation. And I know C is the other word.
But truly, if you are not doing anything, you're
implicit in the problem. And you're complicit.
And so that's the challenge. Do they know any
better? Do they have their own demons? I try
to approach things with curiosity. Another C.
Curiosity and humility as a leader. will move
you so much further than ego and pride and cowardice,
truly, right? If you're afraid to do something
because you're afraid to get fired, like, where
are your principles? Where are your ethics? Where's
your integrity? And when you take on those roles,
you assume those responsibilities. And so it
is like, I love your callback show, man. You
should talk more about that. Well, just like
you were saying, though, 2016 is when I started
the Behind the Shield podcast. And eight years,
or is it almost nine years now? doesn't seem
like a huge amount of time but when you for example
i mean it's a very graphic representation every
year i do that firefighter fitness competition
the fundraiser first year i had six names on
my back this year i think i had a hundred and
i think it was 111 112. this is the point and
i tell people like look if you if you're waiting
for 200 to die Just let us know. We'll pick out
the weak ones. We'll just execute them now. We'll
get to that number and then we'll start fucking
moving forward. Is that what we're doing? Because
I'm not seeing anyone actually changing anything.
And of course, like you said, I am seeing people
changing them, but no one's going to them and
say, hey, this department leader, you're doing
incredible things. How can we learn from you?
It's these isolated, incredible men and women
that are in these places. that the rest of the
nation isn't banding together and saying we need
to do what they're doing so this is what drives
me crazy and like there are people out you know
in all over the country that have never heard
of behind the shield podcast that have never
heard of either of your work and you know may
be completely naive to this issue but locally
that's not the case Because I have literally
hand delivered all this, you know, and even recently
the chief said, we don't have the answers. And
I'm like sitting there watching this video going,
what the fuck are you talking about? We do have
the answer. That just shows you, I don't want
the answers is what you're actually saying. I
don't want to do the work to stop these people
that are wearing the same uniform as me dying.
And so this call to action is because eight years,
almost nine years later, I'm so frustrated with
the kid gloves approach. I mean, there's over
a thousand episodes out there. I personally have
written two books and I am in no way, shape or
form an expert. That's alongside the hundreds
and hundreds of other books that are on this
topic. And you're saying you don't have the answers.
So this is the only thing left. And we all know,
sadly, that in some agencies, the people who
don't want to be real firefighters scurry up
the promotional ladder and they end up in these
positions. And so we have phenomenal leaders
wearing bugles. We have phenomenal leaders in
union leadership in some areas, some areas. But
we also have self -serving cowards in these positions
that are more worried about their promotional
path or, you know, being the next union leader
than they are actually having the balls to step
up for their men and women. It's so fucking evident
to me. So I don't mind being the bad guy. I'll
call you out because I'm not wearing uniform
anymore. And you fucking hate that the fact that
you can't tell me to shut up or discipline me
for saying what needs to be said for the million
firefighters in this country. I love it, man.
For sure. It's how ironic is that we both started
in this world. What rocketed us into this was
because of suicide, but we built the resources
along the way. And we've done a lot of work about
breaking down that stigma and giving permission
to people reach out and trying to build resources
for people. But it's like, there's this lack
of awareness. And then you kind of just made
a light bulb go in my... I go on in my head is
like, even though the light is, even though those
are there, if they're, is it cognitive dissonance?
Like, what is it that stops them from going?
There's a problem. There's some solutions. What's
stopping them? What's the barrier for them? It
goes, does it go back to ego? But we, we, we
took. an attack at stigma and lowering the bar
for barriers, whether it's improved extended
health benefits, a team of people that understand
first responder role, but we knew it was going
to get worse before it got better. And I think
I was taught that in incident command operations,
like for our company officer courses, you come
up to a burning building and like, we have X
amount of resources and we have so many people
and it's, shit's going to get worse before it's
going to get better, right? Got to pull hoses,
got to throw ladders, all that stuff. is the
same thing is it is it the same thing for this
is that now that we've lowered the the barriers
around stigma or or made it okay to reach out
for help there's going to be a tidal wave of
people that go holy yeah that me too and do we
i think if this is just for conversation is did
we have the capacity to manage that that influx
of people going holy me too i'm in the red i'm
over the waterfall Are our services that overcome
by that, that we are sort of like in this inefficient
spin where we can't help everybody? Or is it
truly just a leadership piece where there are
resources, they just aren't going to put their
heart and soul into getting behind that? I think
it's both. I think it's both. Yeah, I agree.
I think it's both. Yeah, I really, well, we see
it. in many different organizations that they
they start with the mental health piece and a
really great example is we just started fire
ground survival training here in winnipeg and
the biggest thing i i kept saying to the crews
is we're training in mayday so guess what's going
to happen right if you start training people
in maydays they're going to start having situational
awareness and condition recognition and they're
going to start calling the mayday so do we have
every piece from the start From the dispatcher
right down to the acting or on -duty chief to
how to respond in their position. I'm not asking
you to command and mandate because you're never
going to do it. I'm asking you, do you know your
role and responsibility? So then you flip it,
flip the coin and say for mental health. When
we started the road to mental readiness, when
we started that program, did you have every piece
in place to capture everyone? And you have that.
And on both sides, I can see both sides that
we didn't. So how do you do it? Well, you start
from just doing your own job. Don't worry about
anyone else. Just do what is your responsibility.
Say if you're the hydrant, I don't have to worry
about you taking command because guess what?
You're on the hydrant. Do your job. And are you
ready? What do you need from me to do that job
today? So we start there and break it down step
by step. If we have to create checklists, that's
what we can do. We can create that understanding
of what is your role and this is the expectation
of it. And I can see that starting, right? And
that's where I truly believe like those two pieces,
we can really pull them together and we can break
it down even more, right? There's no excuses
in this anymore. I think there's too much information
out there that we can solve these problems. There's
no more excuses to use as a crutch. Now we have
to put it, implement better. And if they're having
a problem, get rid of the ego, check it at the
door, understand that if you lose another person,
what does it cost? Absolutely. Well, just to
jump in as well, when we talk about those two
factors, I think that the lack of leadership
has created this crisis that we're in. I mean,
look at the recruitment, for example. You see,
just to use Steve's analogy, you see this raft
going towards the edge of Niagara Falls and no
one has said maybe we should start paddling.
You know, they're just riding it along because,
oh, I'll be retired before we get to the edge.
So I'm good. What is interesting is now we're
in a political environment here in America where
government organizational finances are being
analyzed and they're finding all this wasted
money everywhere. Well, that's what we should
have been doing with the fire service years ago.
Because as you know, I talk about the work week
a lot. If you look at the cost of breaking first
responders, it's astronomical. If you look at
the cost of then ultimately dissuading young
recruits to join our profession, because look
at the landscape now, it's a disaster. you know,
then it costs even more. So this is again, and
I love Steve saying it's going to get worse before
it gets better. Yes, you will have to go to your
city and county and say, hey, we need to financially
invest and get our staffing back to where it
needs to be. We need to give them a work week
that actually promotes health, which means an
extra shift, a D shift. But after we do that.
everything is going to improve. There are other
elements, of course, like you said, there's other
elements, but this is the biggest freaking issue
is glaring us in the face. Now you may not have
a landfall of mental health cases just coming
in because some of the people just needed to
fucking sleep and spend time with their family.
You know what I mean? So, and then the money
that's saved can now start funding, you know,
culturally competent clinicians that are actually
on your payroll, you know, good peer support
teams, a gym in every station. You know, all
these other things that we know are going to
add to it. But it's that uncomfortable conversation.
But, you know, as I say, and I always butcher
this quote every time, you have to plant the
seed of the tree under which the shade you'll
never know. So you have to be courageous enough
to be the bad guy because it's going to help
so many other people. And you're not even the
bad guy. You're the good guy. Once you'd storytell
to your, you know, whatever it is, city, county.
Look at the money we're wasting. Look at the
people that we're burying. We can change this.
But that takes, because of the apathy and the
lack of leadership for the last 10 years, you
might be the person that just got promoted as
chief. Well, guess what? You're it now. You're
the one that's going to have to step up and actually
have this conversation. And 10 years from you,
your city, your county, your fire department
will all remember what a fucking hero you were.
The only other alternative is that they'll remember
that piece of shit that was at the helm when
the fucking ship sank. And now your community
calls 911 and no one shows up because you don't
have a fire department anymore. That's not too
far from where we are now. Like I just saw a
police department offering $100 ,000 sign -on
bonus. I mean, that says it all. Police and fire
used to have... hundreds if not thousands of
people testing for a handful of jobs the science
the data that everyone's crying for is right
in front of your fucking face the way you've
done it doesn't work so do the opposite yeah
you know that funny that you talk about recruitment
and retention like there were 700 people applying
for seven positions when i got hired in 97 in
kakotlan and that is like not the case now but
like there's just so many things that you just
touched on like I've talked to new fire chiefs
lately. We just had a leadership summit where
we brought fire chiefs and union executive together.
And the one thing that I said to all the new
fire chiefs that I was working in the room, saying
hello to the people that I've known, seen come
up through the ranks. And the one thing I said
to them, and I pass this on from a captain that
told me when I first got on is leave it better
than you found it. Leave it. That's all. That's
your number one job. Leave it better than you
found it. And you said like, walk out that door
with your head held high and it might be planting
trees and you'll never enjoy that shade. But
the people behind you will. And you have to do
it. You have to have that mindset that what you're
doing now is going to make it better for people
moving forward. The new person coming in on the
ground level. And I think that's incumbent upon
us, whether it's mentorship, operationally, psychologically,
you know, as an administrator. But, you know,
we have this awareness. And you talked about
all of the things that will make it better. You
have to have a willingness to actually do a check
in, do a gap analysis, find out where your holes
are and check your pride and ego so that you
can really be curious of the why, where and what
we can do to make it better than we found it.
And literally, that starts with, you know. taking
care of yourself first. Because if you're not
in a healthy position as a leader, you're just
going to project that onto your organization
and the people around you. And I think that,
to me, is the biggest call to action of all this.
All this cowardice or the people that are in
those positions. If you can pause and just go
and look inward for a moment and go, what's your
why? Why are you in this role? Why are you doing
what you're doing? And am I in a good place?
Am I in a healthy place? And so, you know, Often
in an emergency, when you have suicides like
that, it's like you've got to put your oxygen
mask on first before you take care of everybody
else. And I see this in people in leadership
roles. They are not. They are coming undone.
The pressures of the county or the city or whatever
putting on them and then the pressures from downward,
they're feeling so much pressure. They're a bit
of an outlier. What they used to be perhaps in
a world where they felt supported and part of
a family, now they're out on their own. And they're
making all these big decisions. And if they haven't
come into their fully in a good place, fuck man,
they're vulnerable as hell. So that's also a
challenge to this whole piece. Yeah. And then
you see them lash out. And the only last reliable
thing source that they have is power. Yeah. Right.
So they use that to their advantage, which is
the weakest form of leadership out there. Yeah.
So if they say, well, you're doing it because
I said. then you can see that sense of character
that they don't have yet, maybe because lack
of maturity in the position. And that's where
we look at that mentorship piece of riding through
the ranks, understanding each position, and they
also have an empathy to understand that maybe
I need to listen to my people more, right? Like
you said, the gap analysis is huge to see, okay,
where are we right now? Maybe let's do a pause
instead of looking at all these great initiatives
that we're moving forward with. Should we be
moving forward before we're completing this next?
Or is it just a checklist we're hitting? And
that's it, Lionel. It's this checkbox mentality.
And I know, James, you've talked about this.
Don't just do it because you think it's the right
thing to do. Believe in it. And truly put the
time and energy to do it properly. Because if
you do something half -assed, like, fuck, man,
our radar is going to pick that up right away.
And our bullshit meter is so sensitive that we're
going to go, that's just a checkbox. You don't
really give a shit. and you're just like that's
something that hr said i have to do right so
that is and when it comes to awareness like this
is something that lionel is doing and i know
james you've talked about this is education is
critical you have the awareness man you've done
if people actually paid attention to this podcast
world or or any of the literature that's out
there we have freaking awareness whether you
choose to believe it or not but where it's lacking
is this education on not only at the first responder
level hr workers comp but leadership man there's
a lack you just aren't intuitively and well some
people are awesome human beings uh intuitively
but if you come into those roles where you make
impact and and there's budgetary pieces like
if you don't have those hard skills of being
a good freaking human being empathy compassion
curiosity humility that is those are intrinsic
qualities of a good leader not positional authority
like a real true players coach right that has
their people's back, that's what's going to make
impact. And that's where we have to start. I
was just talking to Daryl Black and Grant Renis
yesterday, or talking to Grant this morning,
and they're about bringing up leaders so that
they have that knowledge and that power, right?
Because that's truly where it starts, is awareness,
education, and then all other trickle -down supports.
Because if it's just that and nothing else below
that, the house of cards falls apart. It's a
Jenga. And you've taken a sledgehammer to the
fucking Jenga. It's not just one block, right?
So truly. It's an interesting concept. You just
touched on this, Steve. And I want to go to the
ownership of the regular firefighters as well,
because that's another call to action for me.
But before we do, just one last area. And this
is specifically kind of union leaders, officers.
There's a guy called Sid Guru who was on Joe
Rogan's podcast, and they were having a great
conversation. And Sid Guru was saying that everyone
is hurting. And Joe made some comment about,
yeah, apart from the heads of big pharma. And
he goes, they are too. And then they just carried
on talking. But that stuck with me, man. If you
can sleep well in your bed. and you're the head
of Purdue Pharma knowing that OxyContin is the
reason we have an opioid crisis now, if you're
the head of Philip Morris knowing that cigarettes
kills millions of people around the globe, McDonald's,
Coca -Cola, you name it, insert thing that they
know damn fucking well that their products are
costing lives, but they're gaining financially,
there is no argument that there is sociopathy
there. There is a mental health issue there.
Any compassionate little boy and girl that grew
up chasing a ball and laughing at butterflies
doesn't become that kind of human being unless
something's happened. I'm not saying it's quite
the same level of that, but one of my perspectives
is if you can sleep at night, having lost four,
five, six firefighters to suicide, more to cancer,
more to heart disease, divorces, murder, suicides,
whatever. maelstrom that you've got in your department
and you're unfazed by it as a union leader, as
the chief, whatever it is, just like you said,
Steve, that is a call to action for you to look
in the mirror and you to ask yourself, why am
I not moved by that? You're going to have one
of two answers. I need to change. I need to grow
from this and I need to turn the ship around.
Or you shrug your shoulders and you just get
on and you. Clock out at five o 'clock and you
go home while your men and women are being forced
24 hour mandatories over and over and over again.
That person needs to just step aside and let
someone else lead. The other person has the guts
to actually work on themselves and start advocating
for their people. But I think even that is part
of the mental health conversation is the mental
health of the apparently cowardly leaders that
we see, because I hope some of them that will
be. beginning of a beautiful growth journey for
them that would positively affect their lives.
Yeah. And imagine where they end up, like imagine
where they end up acknowledging. And then the
sense that their crews are going to listen to
them more because they acknowledge the fact,
Hey, we're heading this direction. We need to
pivot. Fuck man. Research and development has
shown us that where the path we're heading is
not going to work out for where we want to be.
And just that sense of being honest or even using
their sense of values based leadership. that
they can actually acknowledge the fact that this
hate, what we're looking at, this isn't working,
right? I wrote down sociopath when you were talking
about that type of leader, because that's the
cowardice that you're talking about, is that
type of person that sees an issue, doesn't do
anything about it, and can sleep at night. Like,
you're a sociopath, and then you have, that is
extreme cowardice. But the leader that Lionel
talks about, We're all human beings. Fuck, man.
I've made tons of mistakes as a leader, as a
human being, as a father, as a husband. But man,
I ate a lot of crow and I put my foot in my mouth
a ton. But I've also taken ownership of that
and said, I can do better. Tomorrow's a new day.
And I say that to my daughter. Like, I wasn't
the fucking greatest dad the other day. I lost
my shit on you. You know, I didn't have any patience.
And I'm way better now. We've talked about this
with my kid. And she's like, yeah, you're a much
different human being now. But that's with eating
a lot of crow, showing some humility, taking
extreme ownership, and then growing and learning
and saying, what do I need to do differently
to show up differently in the world? Whether
it's at home, at work, or wherever. But I think
it's that the crux of this is... being humble
enough to do that and to also forgive yourself
for making mistakes. We're all human beings and
the fire service is horrible for generational
trauma. Like we can talk about Germany and people
through war -torn countries and they have this
epigenetic piece where they really, there's no
excuse. They genetically have been altered because
of the trauma they've experienced. The same for
the fire service. You have leaders coming through
an organization that has generational trauma
and toxic work culture, and they are literally
just a product of that. And then they step into
these ranks and roles. And I have a lot of compassion
for them because you're hurting human being the
way you're showing up. And if we approach the
leaders like we expect them to show up for their
people and say, what's going on with you? What's
your history? What's your story? Let's fix that
root cause. And maybe you're going to turn into
a fucking amazing leader because you go, and
I've got fire chiefs coming through my program
right now, our program, because they're like,
I'm so hurting. I'm an outlier in my community
because I'm in this rank. I don't have peers
that I can talk to. I don't have mentors that
can guide me through this stuff. And literally,
you know, they're taking a knee. Let's let them
take a knee. Let's give them permission to reach
out for help. And maybe that's how we fix this
problem. Or the dinosaurs die in the tar pits
and we wait for them to retire. Exactly. I agree,
Steve, because then we hammer on this leadership
or the leadership that we don't want. Yeah. And
then we're not doing anything about it to assist
them to accept like if a chief does take a knee
or a leadership member takes a knee and says,
I don't know what to do next. We hammer the crap
out of them. Right. So. But so we make a better
team. We say, okay, how can I help you? Even
though they might be above us, how can I help?
How can I be part of that change as a firefighter
to a company officer to a chief officer, right?
Within the ranks and have that mentorship right
from the bottom up, right? And top down, right?
They accept it, right? We have it. We have it
in place, but now we just got to get it out there,
right? Or it's not just about. It has to be coming
from the inside. How many people across our fire
service say, well, we need a chief from our own
that has to raise up, right? Yeah. We have that.
I've heard it many times. But to have someone
from a fresh perspective that comes up or from
another department, great. But what if we mentor
our people from who does want to become that
person, who does want to be our champion to take
us to the next level, right, and support them,
even though they may falter? If they falter and
maybe don't make it and make a poor decision,
we don't break them. That's including union and
our department. Absolutely. Well, Steve, you
talked about family. That was a really good segue.
Let's talk now about sphere of influence. So
we've been kind of pointing up the top of the
chain. The piece that I did covered all ranks
and I never rose above firefighters. So that's
my rank and I'm very proud of it. But where I
struggle again with the resistance of this conversation,
At the lowest level, and I will preface this,
a lot of our brothers and sisters are so overworked
and sleep deprived, they don't have the capacity
to critically think. And insert COVID, perfect
example. You're either pro or anti -mask. There
was no middle -of -the -road thinking at all.
You had fear, you had fatigue, and we saw a beautiful
Petri dish of what happens, how easily it is
to just get people to make no decisions. That
being said... One of the things that I really
struggle with, again, with this department locally
and some of these firefighters I'm talking to
and my friends who I knew before they ever even
joined, you know, became firefighters, is a complete
indoctrination, almost like a brainwashing where
like, oh, they'll never go for that. Oh, we don't
have the money. Now, these men and women are
working 56 hours, no Kelly, frequent mandatory
or doesn't matter if it's mandatory or not, frequent
holes in their staffing. So a lot of us, as we
know, we would take that OT because we didn't
want our friend to get mandatory. So it's the
same exact issue. But, you know, for a long,
long time, a lot of mandatory overtime as well.
So 80 hours a week. That has such a detrimental
effect. Let's take the firefighter out for a
second on the relationships of the spouses at
home. on the relationships with the children,
on the health of the children. We know how detrimental
sleep deprivation is to reproductive health and
how everything from infertility to Down syndrome
and pediatric cancer are far greater in our community.
So for me, I get it. We're heroes. We're impenetrable.
So take the focus off you. Fight for your family.
Fight for time with your family. That is the
ultimate currency. So sphere of influence. The
overworked, sleep deprived firefighter, how can
we shift their perspective to realize that each
and every one of us, of us, yes, does have the
ability to be a tiny piece in this jigsaw puzzle
and force change, not only for our careers, but
for the people that come after us. I've got lots
to say about this, but go ahead. I'll let you
go first. Thanks, Stevie. Home is ground zero.
And I talk about this often is that. If you don't
sort your shit out, you're going to transmit
your trauma on your family. But there's this
involuntary thing that happens, and it's almost
like work addiction. And some people like the
overtime because it helps pay the bills and everyone's
got financial troubles. But then there's this
forced piece that you talk about where, and I
see this, my own girlfriend will not take a sick
day, even if she's sick, because she doesn't
want someone to be forced in overtime or work
too much. this integrity that we have that we
don't want our other brothers and sisters to
hurt. So we take on that pain. And there's this
ripple effect that happens, right? And you and
it's unsustainable. And you've talked about this
all the time. It's just it's completely unsustainable.
But because you've selected people into an industry
that have integrity that have this self starter
mentality, or this community first mentality
is that what suffers. And so it's this This very
teeter -totter kind of thing where something's
got to give. And what's happening on the home
front, and you talk about infertility. I just
read this IFF report about amount of miscarriages
that are happening at home. Shift work. We know
that IARC has said that firefighting is a class
one carcinogen. Night shift work is also contributed
to that, right? We know that there's known hazards
and shift pattern is one contributing factor
to that. But if you don't sort your stuff out,
man. You are going to transmit that on your family
and you're going to hurt people. And I look at
the impact that my daughter had, like that I
had on my daughter. And I wish I could go back
in time, James, and undo some of that. I have
a lot of guilt and shame around that. I wanted
to be a better father. But I guess, you know,
it's truly a culmination of things that if the
organizations or even the junior firefighter
doesn't. acknowledge and make an effort to change
because we can collectively go enough is enough
we have to we have to go to city council we have
to sit in front of the decision makers and say
this is affecting not only my personal health
my physical health my mental health spiritual
health but it's impacting my family and if you
can't make change because of that we always say
family first well there's two i have two families
I have my own family, and then I have my firefighter
family. And it is incumbent upon us to say something.
We can't just accept it anymore for it is what
it is. That's horse shit, and that's a cop -out.
And I don't care where you are on the totem pole.
Like, you have a say. And you have a right to
a psychologically safe or mentally safe or physically
safe job. You do. So you have to speak up. Nothing
changes without people speaking up and taking
the torch. So that's my perspective. Lionel,
I'd love to hear yours too, brother. Well, you
can definitely see it now because we've started
the conversation across so many different platforms
of mental health in the last, say, 10 years.
But seeing our personal side of things, like
I said, like you said, Steve, there are so many
instances where those calls came home and...
it was okay to for the kids to have to be shuttled
away and mom said well dad had a bad day right
and which frustrates me now because i didn't
see it then i didn't see it as much or that um
spilt milk was the end of the world right with
the kids would do something it wasn't what they
did is what that call did and how do we how can
we better Acknowledge that before we have to
have our kids or our spouses involved, right?
Do we start with the rookies? How do we capture
those people that are halfway through or at the
end of their career so they don't retire and
have to drink or do other things to try to forget?
Because the worst thing that we can do is numb
our people, numb ourselves, to be able to go
through a normal day, right? One of the best
gifts I think I was given was the fact of being
present of what I was looking for, right? Not
just always looking forward to getting through
that day or look back into how good it used to
be, right? But how about right now? What is going
to be the best things that are going to get us
through that? And that's, like I said, that's
one of the best things I think I was given. And
also the fact of don't be afraid. to talk to
your crews about the reality of this without
feeling weak. And there's so much strength in
people that are honest and vulnerable. In my
opinion, I see the vulnerability of someone not
as a weakness, but as a great strength of self,
of being able to rely on their crews in a way
where just because they're in the front seat
doesn't mean they can't make mistakes. That true
honesty. And thankfully, I was given that time.
Joanna gave that to me of patience, especially
patience, especially when you want to move so
forward and try to get through our incident and
just try to make it better and try to make it
feel better. But we still had to do the work
before. Like we had to start at the beginning,
not jump ahead because we did many times. And
so some of the things didn't always go well,
right? So we had to step back and reset many
times. and learn how to listen to each other
because if there's a time where things were sharp
then you have to acknowledge them take that responsibility
that you were bringing that call home and not
just always blame the incident but blame my response
to it because that was my own personal control
you could actually take control of what was happening
as long as you acknowledged it like you said
steve with that situational awareness it's not
always on the incidents it's about yourself of
being personally responsible for my actions was
a good start. And I think that's where we can
start with many people. So two things, your vulnerability,
dude, that's the antidote to shame. And I think
Brene Brown talks about that. Truly, that's where
it begins. But like circling right back to the
sphere of influence that James, you've mentioned
at the beginning of this conversation is that
You know, we're railing against the machine.
Like, you know, I know your frustration, brother.
Like, we've been in the same fight. And Lionel's
same in Winnipeg. Like, I know I've heard your
struggles, right, at an organizational level.
And it's like, what can we influence? And I think
that's the hope that I hope to give from the
rookie to the guy that's retiring is that if
you're going to do everything you can to leave
it, then. leave it better than you found it.
It's what can you do within your circle of influence
and Lionel at a crew level, man, you are a fucking
mentor. You're a, you're a force to be reckoned
with and you model good behavior and good leadership.
And I think that at that level, you might not
impact Winnipeg fire as a whole, but my God,
you can be the best captain. You can be the best
rookie firefighter. You can be the best mentor
to a new person coming on, like take him under
the wing. And James, like, like you're you're
making a difference man you are but it's so frustrating
we don't see that needle move that we have to
refocus our own energy to go man i'm i feel depleted
at times because there's i don't see things like
i want to change everything on a big global level
i want I want utopia. I want Steve Farina's utopia
world to live in where everyone's a kind human
being. We all get along. We take care of our
health. We're resourced. Everyone's happy, right?
But that's not our freaking reality. But what
I can do is be the best version of myself, Steve
Farina 2 .0, and continue to grow and heal and
be the best father that I can and be the best
boyfriend, husband, girlfriend, whatever it is,
is be the best version of yourself and be. gracious
enough to say that if you have a setback or you
have a bad day, that there's tomorrow's a new
day and I can try again tomorrow. And I think
that's where we hold onto this hope that as much
as the fucking, it's like the world is a dumpster
fire right now. It seems, you know, we can, you
know, put a little bit of water on it, right?
We can throw that one starfish back and help
one person at a time. And I think that's where
we focus our energy in because we only have a
finite amount of energy. and influence so that's
kind of where i'm at right now in my life it's
taken me a long time to get there holy shit well
i think where where i think the other call to
action is just again when you have kind of reframed
what's most important and i uh i just shared
a it was a little girl and her and her mother
actually passing a wreck that her dad and his
crew were working And he came up to the car and
she gave him a hug through the window and everything.
That is the point. It's like that is the most
important thing. The most important. I traveled
to the West Coast and back to the East Coast
for my family. I left arguably one of the best
fire departments in the country as a tillerman,
ultimately going to be a paramedic. My dream
job, burning all the time, you know, great first
due, incredible crew because my son was more
important. So I've walked the walk when it comes
to that. I even transitioned out the fire service
ultimately to, you know, I just saw Lionel's
message. We will carry on while you go pee for
a second. You'll find me. Off you go. So, but
the point is, if we're actually going to change
some of the things that need to be changed, we
have to band together. Like I always use the
example, if no one had spoken up, children would
still be working in factories and cleaning chimneys.
If one man had showed up to the march, Martin
Luther King's speech wouldn't have really resonated
very deeply, but a million of them showed up.
When it matters, like you said, you can take
the ownership and not bring the cause home, but
most importantly, you can band together and,
for example, ask the question, why is it that
the people in these government buildings and
chief's offices work 40 hours? And they're telling
us that we have to work 56 or 80 with mandatory
overtime. Just ask yourself that question. Justify
it. I put the challenge to people. If anyone
can convince me why that's fair and why that
makes sense, the chief doesn't save any lives.
He doesn't have a defibrillator. He doesn't have
an engine or a chainsaw or, you know, jaws of
life. He has a pen. And he goes home after 40
hours. but you have to work 56. So why is it
that your family don't deserve to have you home
when the guy at Starbucks goes home at five or
eight or nine or whatever it is? This is the
fundamental question. So taking ownership, making
sure when you are at home that you have good
sleep hygiene, use new calm between your shifts
to punctuate your shifts and down -regulate before
you go home. But fight for the very thing that's
also going to get you home. When we understand
that sleep deprivation is a known carcinogen,
when it's directly related to mental ill health,
addiction, suicide, when it's directly related
to testosterone depletion, weight gain, all these
things, heart disease. If we're not fighting
against the one common denominator of all the
diseases, then why not? And so this is the other
thing is, like I said, your sphere of action
is to go around that firehouse table and say,
hey, why do we work that way? And when people
realize that it makes no sense, you get together
with the other stations in your shift. And then
all the three shifts or four shifts or three
shifts in this example come together. And now
as a unified workforce, you go to your people
and you say, what are we doing? Like in Florida,
seven departments went to 2472 last year. If
they can do it, why can't we do it? We're understaffed.
We're overworked. We're bleeding over time. We're
losing money and lack of retention. The workman's
clump claims are through the roof. We've got
line of duty death payments. We've got these
accidents that are causing lawsuits. There are
tens of millions of dollars flowing downstream.
Why are we not taking it and investing in our
people? So that's my call to action in that sphere
to influence is that every single firefighter,
engineer, lieutenant, captain, BC. If you all
get together and ask the same questions and basically
metaphorically be one of those men at the Million
Man March, you will make a change. But if you
shrug your shoulders and go, oh, they'll never
go for it, then you reap what you sow. Yeah.
Yeah, for sure, man. It's a team sport. You have
to do it together. You can't do it in an isolated
way. But you need champions and leaders to really
pick up the torch, right? But you also... You
need the support of your people underneath as
well. Everyone has to be on the same page in
order to make change, for sure. Well, Lionel's
doing renovations in his place too. Is Joanna
like taking down the kitchen or what's going
on in there? Mama's getting a bagel. All right.
Well, before we wrap up, are there any other
areas that you want to kind of explore? We've
hit quite a few topics in this kind of over...
overarching conversation. It's certainly obviously
been about calls to action seems to be the theme.
Are there any other things you want to impart
before we wrap this up? Not, not, not just talking
about problems that we have, but I'd like to,
that we, there are solutions and hit some of
those solutions maybe out there. They're consistent.
Like one thing I would bring up is what Don Abbott
found with project media. There's consistent
things happen. It doesn't matter where you are
and that you're so different, you're making these
consistent statements. Like there are 16 statements
that Don Abbott talks about that everyone is
saying when a May Day is about to occur or happening.
And so what are those things that are consistently
happening everywhere from East Coast, West Coast,
up North here to the South that are consistently
happening that we can just streamline? Like they
talk about communication in the fire service
is one of the most challenging because everyone
has their own term. Why is that? Because we know
all these things are consistently happening.
We have suicides. We have depression, anxiety.
We have firefighters that are leaving the service
because of the trauma we see. So why do we always
have to have it our own way? Why do we need such
a unique? program for our own department where
we know it's happening the same across North
America. You know what I mean? So what if we
created that checklist to look at consistency
that we can send out across North America, use
one resource instead of our own individual ones
that can send it out there, that can streamline
some of the issues we're having and start creating
that for that we create some consistency. You
know what I mean? So why can't we do that? Why
does it have to be so unique to our individual
departments that we can't learn from someone
else? But then we go back to Eagle, right? I've
always made the observation that everyone copies
the Northeast when it comes to hose lays and,
you know, tools for forcible entry. But everyone
seems to turn their head to the 42 -hour work
week that most of the Northeast works. So, again,
I agree with you. And I know I always hop on
about this, but it's just such insanity that
this part is so broken. But it's exactly that.
Most professions have a standardized work week.
What do we have? Oh, we'll make it up as we go
along. Every single city and county was so siloed.
So I agree. Find the places where things are
working really well for each one of these little
pieces of the puzzle. And ask them, South Metro,
wherever it is, what are you doing? What's working?
What's not working? Oh, it's not working? Well,
let me show you what we're doing here. That might
work for you. But again, that ego, you've got
to have the humility to go to the places and
say, how are you doing that? Norway, tell me
more about your prison system where you've got
the lowest recidivism in the world. Portugal,
talk to me about decriminalization that reversed
the opioid crisis and made you the lowest now.
You know, Finland, we keep hearing you're number
one in education. What are you doing? It must
be standardized testing, right? Oh, it's not?
Huh. Well, then tell me. Tell me what it actually
is. You know, but it's humility. If you beat
your chest and say we're the greatest country
department, whatever, then of course you're not
going to learn. But if you have the humility
to go and find people that already have the answers,
you don't have to reinvent the fucking wheel.
You just have to drop your ego and learn from
someone who's already figured it out. Yeah, so
then I think we need to start getting out this
message to those conferences, not just the firefighter
ones. We maybe need to bump up and go to those
chiefs conferences and let them know what we're
going to back them up. but here's the program
and we support you with it instead of always
us versus them, right? So maybe we need to branch
out. Maybe we need to stop just hitting it from
one angle. Maybe we need to look at ourselves
and say, okay, what are we not doing? What are
we not talking about with our chief officers
or cities, right, to the mayor or the politicians
that support us or that say they support us?
Are we hitting all the angles that we can? And
what can we do a little bit better, not just
blame it on the Chiefs? Yeah. I say in closing,
there's a price of admission coming into our
world. And it's very high. But I think all of
our efforts are, you know, you have this amazing
library of resources that you've created, James.
And I think to me, it's about resources and knowing
where to look for them. And so it's this upstream
approach that you talk of, of getting a health
ahead of like getting a good shift schedule,
taking care of yourself, peer support, good mental
health professionals that understand our culture.
Like all of those things in place is that this
is truly what's going to fix this issue is like
we can become overwhelmed with the problem. But
I always say like, how do you eat an elephant?
Like one bite at a time. and my sister -in -law
hates that because she loves elephants but i
don't like eat the biggest hamburger in the world
i don't care what it is but how do you do that
it's like little bite -sized pieces and you attack
this by knowing what resources you have and if
you don't have the resources you create them
like in florida you got redline rescue right
mental health professionals that are culturally
competent you've got a peer network that you
can lean into you know you've got there's resources
there in canada we've got first responder health
warrior health BC First Responder mental health
page. You want a gap analysis? Boom, we got it.
You want a business case? We've got that. You
want to do a family night? We've got those resources.
Retirees, like having those hubs of resources
and like your podcasts are, it's a resource,
right? Like knowing where to look, but you have
to have the humility and curiosity to look at
yourself as a human being, as your organization
and really having a desire to make a change.
i think that's what the bottom line is is let's
stop looking over the waterfall and catching
people like it's useless to throw them a life
preserver when they're down over there we want
to get them way upstream and that's where we
have to focus our energy in and our money is
upstream better shifts patterns no force over
time and and resourcing your biggest asset which
is the human beings behind all of this truly
so we'll all be better for it man our communities
our families Like everything. We show up healthy,
it makes such an impact. So from recruitment
to retirement. There's a Desmond Tutu quote,
I believe, that I absolutely love. And he's like,
we need to stop trying to pull bodies out the
river and go upstream and see who's throwing
them in the first place. That sums it up. That's
exactly what we need to do. Fucking rights, man.
Yeah. So like you said, Steve, about eating an
elephant one bite at a time, I'm understanding
you don't have to eat the whole elephant, right?
Everyone has a piece in this. And I believe I
have a piece and I've acknowledged the fact that
I can't do it all myself. And building that team,
that team may not be the people you always get
to choose. It might be that outlier. right that
you need to include so how can we do that a little
bit better as things look at those specialists
that can assist in the team right so how can
we go and but we also have to have an end result
we have to know where we want to head if you
don't have that and that's what i love about
your your bc pffa website it's accessible right
to all levels of our departments not just the
firefighters not just union members but the chief
officers too which we're trying to share with
them more And if we can take that ownership of
what our part is and acknowledge the fact that
we don't know it all, then we start educating.
Like we try to pass on James's website as much
as we can and then educating them on like we
did. I was in Colorado last week. I was in California
the week before. And having all those people
not knowing where to go, being a voice of. reason
sometimes and then also being the student i think
is one of the things that we can acknowledge
too that i wish i knew more right and and thankful
thankful for james and steve as well that we
can learn bump off each other once in a while
like to take that knee was so important but also
to be the person that can assist that person
up we have to see what where are we right now
acknowledge it and then uh push forward because
If I don't show up for work as the captain that
the crew needs, then whose fault is it? Right?
Beautiful. Well, for people listening, if they
want to reach out to you, Lionel, learn about
all the projects that you're a part of that we
discussed at the beginning, where are the best
places online? I'm on social media a little bit
with Facebook and Instagram under Lionel Crowther.
I believe there's only one, but mostly those
two. I don't really dabble in all the other ones
as much, but maybe a little bit of LinkedIn,
but I can pass that off onto your webpage as
well. I'll make sure I pass on the proper ones
because I really do love hearing from other people
and their perspectives. Like I mentioned last
week, we had our firefighter burn survivor retreat,
probably one of the most inspirational weeks
I could ever be a part of. I love it, especially
if we have people out there that we don't know
yet. There's some firefighter burn survivors
that feel alone. And I'd love to hear from them
if they haven't had anyone reach out to them
yet or found our organization from the D .C.
Burn Foundation of how we help burn survivors
and firefighters. Please reach out because I
hope that's one thing that we can find. And same
with this mental health conversation. One of
the things I think that I find the most profound
is that people still feel alone in the most technologically
advanced era we've ever had. I don't want that.
And I think that that's the one thing I think
we can do a little bit better is finding those
people and giving them the assistance that they
need if it's just a voice or someone to sit and
talk with. That's one of the biggest things.
So I hope we can hear more. for more people that
are alone and help them get into these groups
that they need to be. Absolutely. Well, Steve,
same question to you. If you want to find you
online or the resources that you mentioned before.
I'm on LinkedIn and you can go to our website,
bcpffa .org that Lionel mentioned there. I'm
the executive vice president for that association
until June. And, you know, through you, James,
if you want to pass on anyone's contact info,
I'm on all the socials as well. And yeah, just
feel free to reach out. We've got the BC Firefighter
Resiliency Program. That website is bcfirefightersresiliencyprogram
.com, I think. It's a Gmail or it's a G, whatever,
Google account. So my contact info is on there.
So we can reach out through that as well. And
then I'll pass on some of the other resources
and web links that I talked about. The BC First
Responder Mental Health website is a great depository
of information, like just a wealth of videos
and templates that people can follow, setting
up your peer team, et cetera. There's a bunch
of resources that I'll pass along to you too.
Beautiful. Well, I want to say thank you so much.
It's been such an amazing conversation to, you
know, unique, powerful lenses that we have brought
into this discussion today. And hopefully it
will sow some seeds. We haven't been talking
about, you know, technicalities today. It's a
lot more of the concepts. And again, pushing
that hope, because I think that there absolutely
is change in our future. And I've always said
this, this crisis that we're in now. if you're
a glass half full kind of guy like i am i might
throw that glass at people sometimes but um is
a perfect opportunity for us to finally change
because it's irrefutable now so these resources
that we talked about you know the all the incredible
things that you guys are doing and and you know
the things and all the other guests on the podcast
now hopefully people will go okay we can do it
but the element of hope that's been inserted
today i think is phenomenal so i want to thank
you both so so much for being so generous with
your time and coming on the behind the shield
podcast Well, thank you, James, man, for the
work you've done. It's propelled me further.
And I know you always have our back. So thank
you for the work you do because it's amazing.
Humble, brother. Humble.