WEBVTT

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This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr, yet

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another company that's doing great things for

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that we as a profession start tracking our people

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from day one and then over the full span of their

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career, therefore catching potential wellness

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issues and injuries before they happen. Now,

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if you want to try TeamBuildr, they are offering

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features. And if you want to take a deeper dive

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into TeamBuildr, listen to episode 1032 with

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Melissa Mercado or go to teambuilder .com. And

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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you

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think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome

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to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,

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my name is James Gearing and this week it is

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my absolute honor to welcome on the show Lionel

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Crowther and Steve Farina. Now both Lionel and

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Steve have done so much for our fire service

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and their home in the Canadian fire service.

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Lionel was my guest with his wife Joanna on episode

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215 and then Steve came on on episode 661. In

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this conversation today, they came on together

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and we had one of the most raw and honest conversations

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when it comes to mental health, the absolute

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need for courage in leadership positions. the

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sphere of influence, and so much more. Now, before

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we get to this incredible conversation, as I

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say every week, please just take a moment, go

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to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe

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to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.

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Every single five -star rating truly does elevate

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this podcast, therefore making it easier for

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others to find. And this is a free library of

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well over 1 ,000 episodes now. So all I ask in

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return is that you help share these incredible

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men and women's stories so I can get them to

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every single person on planet Earth who needs

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to hear them. So that being said, I welcome back

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onto the show... Lionel Crowther and Steve Farina.

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Enjoy. Well, Lionel and Steve, I want to start

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by saying welcome back to the Behind the Shield

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podcast today. So good to be back. Right on,

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buddy. So we both spoke, and I haven't even looked

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up the episode numbers, but we've done a podcast

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together individually. This is the first time

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we're doing it together. I would love to do a

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kind of recap, though, because it was quite a

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while, certainly, Lionel, since you and I sat

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down. So let's kind of jump straight to that.

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Can you give us an overview of your journey into

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the fire service, any significant events? And

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then we'll start kind of addressing some of the

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topics that we spent almost 20 minutes discussing

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before we hit record. So Lionel, first with you,

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tell us where you're from and then your journey

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into the fire service. Certainly, James. Lionel

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Crowther. I'm at 27 years in the fire service

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now. I started with. a small town where i grew

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up as a volunteer and then thankfully married

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a winnipeg girl and i so i had to get on in winnipeg

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so winnipeg fire for the last 25 years i'm a

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station captain now and very fortunate throughout

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the years within my service here what really

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brought us together was i was a part of a line

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of duty double line of duty death in 2007 the

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anniversary was just last week on february 4th

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Really changed our whole world, not just our

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personal life, but also career life. Really affected

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our family. That call really did come home and

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resonate for a long time. Many different challenges

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we never expected. But that's what really brought

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us all three together was that incident. Really

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connecting with Steve Farina, with their Loon

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Lake, their resiliency program for firefighters.

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Changed my life again. Really saved it. And very

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fortunate for that, which created a wonderful

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brotherhood and friendship with Steve. And then

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again, meeting James a couple years after. And

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understanding that there's so much more to the

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fire service than just what was happening. I'm

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thankful for all that you both do. And especially

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that there is something that we can do ourselves,

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not just as a department, but individuals. That's

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me in a nutshell. And just staying on you, talk

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to me about the organizations that you work with

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as far as fire ground survival and burn injured

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firefighters. Sure. After that incident, they

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opened up a whole new world to me of what the

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fire service is. Initially, in 2009, I was appointed

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to burn foundation coordinator for Central Canada,

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the 13th district of the IFF. So very fortunate

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with that, working with 16 other burn coordinators

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across North America for assisting any burn injury,

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and especially burn injured firefighters within

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the IFF. And also those that are unable to be

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part of a local, we assist them as well. So a

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wonderful organization, which led me to understanding

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what a burn survivor is and accepting that I

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have now become a burn survivor, not a burn victim.

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So very powerful those few years. And then after

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that, I also joined the fire ground survival

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program through the IFF as a master instructor.

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All those things that happened to us that evening

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when we were trapped and we lost Captain Lessard

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and Captain Nichols, I found through the program

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there was a lot of problems that we had and the

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program had solutions. So it was a very rewarding,

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but also... inspiring program to be in because

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I found that we can actually do something about

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these problems that we're having on the fire

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ground and then being able to go and teach about

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it and be open because I wasn't always able to

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do that here here in Winnipeg initially you know

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so which led to another working with the Phoenix

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Society of Burned Survivors because not only

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was I a firefighter struggling without it really

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knowing my identity at this point I realized

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that there's many other firefighters that were

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burn survivors going through the same thing.

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So we started working on a peer support program

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specific for burn injured firefighters and their

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families, which was very inspiring and very uplifting

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because we found out that you didn't have to

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be alone anymore. I love that part of it because

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many of us struggled with that sense of identity

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that you sort of lose for some time. When you

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look at yourself, you don't realize that. you've

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changed and you really really hope for that life

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to come back as a firefighter realizing that

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um i think there's strength there and and to

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go through trauma and make it through trauma

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really gave us a great gift to become a survivor

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it's accepted eventually it took some time which

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led again to another program which we now work

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on which is a firefighter burn survivor retreat

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that we just got home from in colorado from an

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adaptive sports center. Some of our firefighters

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have nerve damage, burn injuries, amputations,

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limitations that are from their incidents, and

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especially not just the physical, but the mental.

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So now every year for the last 13 years, we've

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been running a Firefighter Burns Forever Retreat

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in Crested Butte, Colorado, with a great ensemble

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of people that make it happen, from the D .C.

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Burn Foundation, Jason Woods, Charlie Shia. and

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my good friend luis navarez from tillery california

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so we we host that together it was inspirational

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it was so powerful very emotional uh takes us

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all back to our injuries no matter how far they

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are um there's always something that we can work

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on i believe and we got to mentor and and hold

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up many of our first these last few years especially

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the the crews we had last week there was from

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chief officers right down to firefighter we had

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all the company officers ranks and uh really

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forged a wonderful crew for our week in crested

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butte last week so i'm pretty motivated right

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now and inspired so i'm ready to roll this week

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beautiful and yeah one more i got a little bit

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of work with ul the fire safety research institute

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i'm on the the attack committee the training

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advisory committee which is a wonderful opportunity

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for myself but also to educate another thing

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that we can do is educate our members of why

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we do things not just telling them tasks tell

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them the strategy understanding why with data

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research something that we can actually show

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there is a difference of why we need to be fighting

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fires the way we are so I think I got it absolutely

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perfect that was a good overview thank you all

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right Steve same to you my brother you are you

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humble me man uh and lionel you're not a burn

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survivor man you're a burn thriver and you are

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yeah i i'm you humble me sir the stuff that you

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do and your story is so impactful and i reflect

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back on how we got connected like yes 2007 and

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i was thinking about you this month and that

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is, it's always in the forefront of my brain

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around this time of year, because 10 years, it

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took you 10 years to reach out to me and connect

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and ask for help and come through our firefighter

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resiliency program when we first started that.

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So that was 2017, February. And to see you now,

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man, man, it makes me so proud to see how far

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you've come and how much you've grown as a human

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being. So, so my role, I've been in the fire

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service for Over 30 years now, 32 years paid

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on call for five, 27 years in career. I'm an

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engine captain on engine one in Coquitlam and

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just a little suburb of Vancouver and British

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Columbia here. And I have had a career, an unexpected

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journey. I just watched The Hobbit yesterday.

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So I had an unexpected journey in the fire service

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because I got involved in the union world. and

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became part of the union executive and was a

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voice and an advocate for health and safety for

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18 years of my career. And then I got into the

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provincial world and lobbying and higher level

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stuff and wanting to make a difference and never

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ever thought in a million years that I would

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be in that stream. So dual role firefighter by

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day and union executive by night kind of thing.

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And that has opened up a ton of doors and opened

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up my eyes and made connections like literally

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around the world. And that has been such a privilege

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and an honor to do that, advocating for mental

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health and other initiatives. And that's what,

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you know, that's what kind of introduced Lionel

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and I is helping people. We've had 343 firefighters.

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How about that number? I think of 9 -11 and that.

00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:30.700
the importance of that number, that's how many

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people we've put through our program. And today

00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:35.460
starts our next program. We're having other eight

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firefighters coming through. It's a three and

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a half day retreat. It is group, it's intensive

00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:43.320
group work, but it's, it's a life changing endeavor

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if you put your energy into it and it puts people

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onto trajectories of health and growth like Lionel.

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And so super proud to be part of that with blueprint

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and the two doctors that are involved with that

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directly. So. and i hear talk about where i was

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i listened to our conversation james and where

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i was when we first chatted to now i am two months

00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:05.559
away from retirement and and looking at the next

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chapter of my life and what i want to do with

00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:09.860
it and i don't want to i'm not hanging up my

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fire helmet as we were talking about earlier

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before the call is that i want to know i want

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to keep on doing i want to have meaning and purpose

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and i kind of want to focus on the next chapter

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of my life on passing on what my experiences

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and have been and and really talk to leadership

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and human resources and anyone that basically

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touches our world a little bit on educating about

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what our culture and and how to do it better

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how to leave it better than they find it so that's

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it man i'm so excited for this conversation you

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have no idea all right i'm just gonna dip my

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knuckles in broken glass and we'll begin okay

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All right. Well, go back to start with something

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I think that's really important. And this is

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definitely kind of, you know, uplifting, positive

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element. Steve's, you know, observation of Lionel's

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journey, I think, underlines this. But where

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I feel in the firefighter mental health conversation,

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the where we've got, as I say, our trouser leg

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caught on is the word stigma. We've got to smash

00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:17.909
the stigma. When I listen to, you know, I mean,

00:14:17.909 --> 00:14:20.750
in the podcast, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds

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of people that have been through this crucible,

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they've been to this dark place. Some of them,

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you know, actually went through their suicide

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attempt and survived. Is when they found that

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toolbox that worked for them and they did the

00:14:33.669 --> 00:14:37.470
work, there was a more, I mean, we use the word

00:14:37.470 --> 00:14:40.490
resilient a lot, but a 2 .0, a better version

00:14:40.490 --> 00:14:42.590
of themselves, a different version than before

00:14:42.590 --> 00:14:45.009
all that stuff happened. but I would argue a

00:14:45.009 --> 00:14:48.029
better version of themselves. To me, that conversation

00:14:48.029 --> 00:14:50.870
puts hope into the mental health conversation.

00:14:51.210 --> 00:14:55.210
Whereas right now, you know, there are some people

00:14:55.210 --> 00:14:57.909
out there making a career of walking around and

00:14:57.909 --> 00:14:59.970
talking about how they live with their PTSD.

00:15:00.190 --> 00:15:02.669
I'm doing air quotes now, not casting shade on

00:15:02.669 --> 00:15:05.190
those individuals, but that's kind of where we've

00:15:05.190 --> 00:15:10.049
caught. So talk to me about post -traumatic growth.

00:15:10.190 --> 00:15:12.480
Talk to me about the hope. of the person you

00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:15.039
become when you found that toolbox and you do

00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:19.600
the work. Yeah, that's a great way to start because

00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:22.299
getting a diagnosis of post -traumatic stress

00:15:22.299 --> 00:15:26.759
disorder feels like it felt like a death sentence

00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:30.019
when we initially got it. And it was like one

00:15:30.019 --> 00:15:32.600
more thing that went wrong, that it feels like

00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:35.940
an uncontrollable thing that you cannot get away

00:15:35.940 --> 00:15:37.259
from, that you're going to carry the rest of

00:15:37.259 --> 00:15:38.980
your career, like Steve always talks about is

00:15:38.980 --> 00:15:42.179
the backpack we carry. And it was like one more

00:15:42.179 --> 00:15:45.740
big bowler got thrown in there. But then finding

00:15:45.740 --> 00:15:48.879
something that worked specific for me, it may

00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:51.279
not work for everyone, but when we found that

00:15:51.279 --> 00:15:55.419
one thing, it led to something else. And it really

00:15:55.419 --> 00:15:57.799
did truly make me a better man going through

00:15:57.799 --> 00:16:01.399
this. These are things that I hope when we do

00:16:01.399 --> 00:16:04.240
speak on this and when people listen to these

00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:07.879
conversations we have, understanding that there's

00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:11.970
a way for them, not... A blanket, like a check

00:16:11.970 --> 00:16:13.470
sheet that you're going to get and you're going

00:16:13.470 --> 00:16:14.870
to go through it. And this is what you're going

00:16:14.870 --> 00:16:17.169
to get at the end. Everything was so specific

00:16:17.169 --> 00:16:21.250
to my character and also my, my, what my path

00:16:21.250 --> 00:16:26.110
was. It was, it was so rewarding because we found

00:16:26.110 --> 00:16:29.570
it worked. I loved what happened. I honestly

00:16:29.570 --> 00:16:35.090
did. Because it was hard and it was, it was a

00:16:35.090 --> 00:16:37.289
challenge because we had to step outside of the

00:16:37.289 --> 00:16:39.980
norm. and especially on the path that we were

00:16:39.980 --> 00:16:42.759
given right you we had to do something that was

00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:48.940
so unique to my need um that's where i think

00:16:48.940 --> 00:16:52.419
i got the ownership from because we we found

00:16:52.419 --> 00:16:55.259
one root one vein here that worked and then all

00:16:55.259 --> 00:16:58.399
of a sudden it stopped and then we had to find

00:16:58.399 --> 00:17:00.799
okay when that one song okay if i listen this

00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:03.539
one song it's amazing it feels great i feel good

00:17:03.539 --> 00:17:06.079
that's what i have to do to relax or get through

00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:11.660
that one Then that song stopped working. Okay,

00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:13.640
I just go to the gym. Just go to the gym, pound

00:17:13.640 --> 00:17:15.980
it out, get some adrenaline going, blast through

00:17:15.980 --> 00:17:19.500
it, feel good. All of a sudden, the gym stopped

00:17:19.500 --> 00:17:22.019
working, right? So all these things, we had to

00:17:22.019 --> 00:17:24.640
find things, especially through the phases that

00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:26.079
we were going through because it wasn't just

00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:28.759
one phase and you're good. Okay, now I move back

00:17:28.759 --> 00:17:34.769
to work. I'm good. It wasn't like that. That's

00:17:34.769 --> 00:17:37.630
where I'm so thankful that there's many options

00:17:37.630 --> 00:17:40.470
for many firefighters now. It's not just one

00:17:40.470 --> 00:17:42.829
thing. It's like take that one pill and you're

00:17:42.829 --> 00:17:44.950
good to go. And hey, you're going to be blasting

00:17:44.950 --> 00:17:47.150
back and you're back to your ops or wherever

00:17:47.150 --> 00:17:50.549
you decide to go. There's so many great options

00:17:50.549 --> 00:17:54.049
and transitions that we have for firefighters

00:17:54.049 --> 00:17:57.490
across North America now that I believe we can

00:17:57.490 --> 00:17:59.769
really start making a difference through this

00:17:59.769 --> 00:18:02.910
stigma that we still have. Absolutely. Steve.

00:18:05.450 --> 00:18:07.490
I'm glad you're talking about this stigma because

00:18:07.490 --> 00:18:10.410
the reason why I got into the mental health world

00:18:10.410 --> 00:18:12.849
was because of two back -to -back suicides seven

00:18:12.849 --> 00:18:16.789
weeks apart in Surrey. That launched me into

00:18:16.789 --> 00:18:18.970
this world and there was followed by additional

00:18:18.970 --> 00:18:23.490
suicides. And basically, it came out of the shadows

00:18:23.490 --> 00:18:27.230
that there's some real serious problems in the

00:18:27.230 --> 00:18:29.569
first responder world in the fire service. And

00:18:29.569 --> 00:18:33.430
we shone a light on it. And it was ugly. And

00:18:33.430 --> 00:18:35.130
there was people that are hurting. And there

00:18:35.130 --> 00:18:38.369
was shame holding people back from reaching out.

00:18:38.809 --> 00:18:41.869
And they were scared and to be judged. And so

00:18:41.869 --> 00:18:44.190
all of those things. And we still have it today.

00:18:44.630 --> 00:18:46.589
And that's what frustrates me is that we've done

00:18:46.589 --> 00:18:50.890
so much to create resources and to change that

00:18:50.890 --> 00:18:54.109
narrative that this is not a death sentence,

00:18:54.230 --> 00:18:57.130
as Lionel calls it. And I know you've reframed

00:18:57.130 --> 00:18:58.970
that in your brain, but we have to look at it

00:18:58.970 --> 00:19:02.809
as an injury. It's an injury to the soul, injury

00:19:02.809 --> 00:19:05.319
to the heart, and to your brain. and that it's

00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:07.720
recoverable with the right resources and community

00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:10.200
and i think that's what we focus on is there

00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:13.019
is hope and you know so many people are worried

00:19:13.019 --> 00:19:15.160
about looking at pandora's box right you're gonna

00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:16.859
all those rocks that you have in those backpack

00:19:16.859 --> 00:19:20.140
but when dr cool and i talk about pandora's box

00:19:20.140 --> 00:19:24.180
is what's at the bottom of it hope and if you

00:19:24.180 --> 00:19:27.940
have the right resources and connections and

00:19:27.940 --> 00:19:30.779
support you can unpack all of that delicately

00:19:30.779 --> 00:19:34.619
and repack it in a way that you have growth And

00:19:34.619 --> 00:19:36.200
that you are a better person. And it kind of

00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:38.660
reminds me of that Japanese art where you take

00:19:38.660 --> 00:19:40.680
that broken pottery or whatever and you repair

00:19:40.680 --> 00:19:44.119
it. That kintsugi, I think it's called. Is that

00:19:44.119 --> 00:19:46.700
right? Like where they use gold to mend things.

00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:49.660
Like you are stronger for that experience. So

00:19:49.660 --> 00:19:53.160
it happened. Like what happened to Lionel, it

00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:55.400
made him a stronger human being. But it took

00:19:55.400 --> 00:19:58.740
him going through the fire, literally. to come

00:19:58.740 --> 00:20:01.160
out this other side stronger. And I, you know,

00:20:01.259 --> 00:20:03.539
it's sound may sound cliche, but you gotta, you

00:20:03.539 --> 00:20:05.720
gotta put the hard work in, you gotta get through

00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:09.019
it. You can't avoid it. You can't people, you

00:20:09.019 --> 00:20:10.619
know, they don't want to be uncomfortable, right?

00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:12.680
So they avoid the pain, but you actually literally

00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:15.559
have to go through that. And I've helped so many

00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:17.740
people through the tunnel. Like I don't see a

00:20:17.740 --> 00:20:19.819
light at the end of the tunnel, or it's the fricking

00:20:19.819 --> 00:20:21.779
train coming at me a million miles an hour. Well,

00:20:21.859 --> 00:20:24.660
you gotta go through it and to get to the other

00:20:24.660 --> 00:20:27.180
side. You know, Lionel, you talk about this.

00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:28.779
It's like this mental health cha -cha, right?

00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:32.220
It's not a linear journey. I'm, I'm injured and

00:20:32.220 --> 00:20:35.119
I get healthy. It is a fricking rollercoaster

00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:39.019
of hell. And I've been on Lionel's rollercoaster.

00:20:39.059 --> 00:20:40.460
I've been beside him and we've been looking at

00:20:40.460 --> 00:20:45.259
each other like, ah, holy shit. And it hasn't

00:20:45.259 --> 00:20:49.640
been awesome, right? And I look at the impact

00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:52.859
on family, Joanna, your boys, your girl, like.

00:20:53.609 --> 00:20:55.569
Like there's a whole bunch of people along for

00:20:55.569 --> 00:20:58.230
the ride, but if we can do it shoulder to shoulder,

00:20:58.349 --> 00:21:01.230
fuck man, we can get through anything together.

00:21:02.069 --> 00:21:04.490
Yeah. Especially when you realize that you don't

00:21:04.490 --> 00:21:06.829
always have to be the one that's driving. Like

00:21:06.829 --> 00:21:09.250
it's okay to take a side, sit in the back some

00:21:09.250 --> 00:21:11.490
days and just, okay, it's okay to listen here.

00:21:11.950 --> 00:21:15.029
Jesus, take the wheel. Yep. Here you go, brother.

00:21:16.829 --> 00:21:18.970
But that's what I mean. Like everyone feels it

00:21:18.970 --> 00:21:21.910
has to be them. Individual going through this.

00:21:22.299 --> 00:21:27.059
And that's where I find we can't. I realize that

00:21:27.059 --> 00:21:31.680
sometimes I learn more when I listen versus sitting

00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:34.799
there talking to an individual. I don't think

00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:36.259
many people are going to be buying the pictures

00:21:36.259 --> 00:21:39.599
in the gift shop of your roller coaster. No.

00:21:40.700 --> 00:21:45.250
It's going to be like a slingshot. no but this

00:21:45.250 --> 00:21:46.970
is what's interesting and steve i've used that

00:21:46.970 --> 00:21:50.329
analogy many times because i think not only are

00:21:50.329 --> 00:21:54.450
you stronger then people go wow that gold glue

00:21:54.450 --> 00:21:56.609
is kind of cool tell me about it oh it was when

00:21:56.609 --> 00:21:59.589
i was going through this thing oh you went through

00:21:59.589 --> 00:22:02.809
that i've been going through some stuff myself

00:22:02.809 --> 00:22:06.009
and now you see this person as a beacon so i

00:22:06.009 --> 00:22:10.230
think For a selfless servant that a first responder

00:22:10.230 --> 00:22:12.269
of law enforcement officer or soldier, all these

00:22:12.269 --> 00:22:15.730
people are, not only are you going to get yourself

00:22:15.730 --> 00:22:18.769
better, but now you are truly become more of

00:22:18.769 --> 00:22:20.990
an asset, whether it's your men and women that

00:22:20.990 --> 00:22:23.769
you work with coming out of the shadows and saying.

00:22:24.170 --> 00:22:27.309
hey, I need help or simply being on a call and

00:22:27.309 --> 00:22:29.710
having that extra empathy and compassion for

00:22:29.710 --> 00:22:32.609
the homeless gentleman or the addicts, you know,

00:22:32.650 --> 00:22:34.509
where people are saying it's a waste of Narcan

00:22:34.509 --> 00:22:36.450
and you've been through hell and you're like,

00:22:36.490 --> 00:22:38.710
what are you talking about? This is another human

00:22:38.710 --> 00:22:41.589
being that's struggling. So there's so much,

00:22:41.589 --> 00:22:44.890
I think, to be excited about on the other side

00:22:44.890 --> 00:22:48.430
of this work. But like you said, it's interesting

00:22:48.430 --> 00:22:51.769
because it's dynamic. If you look at food intolerances,

00:22:51.769 --> 00:22:54.259
one of my guests was talking about this. you're

00:22:54.259 --> 00:22:57.680
just not intolerant to gluten and that's it you

00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:00.079
know there's a growth now you can start bringing

00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:02.500
some of these foods in as you get your gut healthier

00:23:02.500 --> 00:23:04.859
and healthier and healthier so it is this kind

00:23:04.859 --> 00:23:09.599
of undulation of of this journey but seeing that

00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:12.980
pot with the gold glue really is the kind of

00:23:12.980 --> 00:23:15.539
um flame for the moths and i mean that you know

00:23:15.539 --> 00:23:18.220
compassionately to start coming towards you and

00:23:18.220 --> 00:23:22.700
going how the hell did you do that yeah and there's

00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:25.579
uh one of the compassion dogs in our area is

00:23:25.579 --> 00:23:28.400
called the name of the dog is beacon and you

00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:31.460
kind of it is a beacon and and lionel is so inspirational

00:23:31.460 --> 00:23:36.400
because he is he is the epitome of working hard

00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:38.640
and getting through the fire and getting on the

00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:41.640
other side right and that sharing his sharing

00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:43.799
his story whether it's fire ground survival or

00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:47.359
at a conference as a headliner or like that provides

00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:49.980
permission to others to go hey i can do that

00:23:49.980 --> 00:23:52.339
too and that that's the inspirational piece is

00:23:52.339 --> 00:23:55.809
that that we say it's like, share it, don't wear

00:23:55.809 --> 00:23:57.750
it. So you're, you're sharing your story, but

00:23:57.750 --> 00:24:00.190
it also, it's people, you know, gives people

00:24:00.190 --> 00:24:02.809
hope, man, like seriously. And you don't want

00:24:02.809 --> 00:24:05.009
to become this wounded healer where you haven't

00:24:05.009 --> 00:24:07.349
sorted your shit out. And you're just like, you're

00:24:07.349 --> 00:24:08.869
living through other people and helping other

00:24:08.869 --> 00:24:10.269
people and not taking care of yourself. But,

00:24:10.269 --> 00:24:13.269
but having that lived experience, I shared experience

00:24:13.269 --> 00:24:16.029
that all three of us have. That's what, that's

00:24:16.029 --> 00:24:18.309
what bonds us. Trauma bonds us, but it can be

00:24:18.309 --> 00:24:20.930
in a really good and positive way. Yeah. And.

00:24:22.150 --> 00:24:24.230
That's the biggest thing I hope people see is

00:24:24.230 --> 00:24:27.210
not me as an individual. I hope they see the

00:24:27.210 --> 00:24:30.410
team, like it's a village that raised and got

00:24:30.410 --> 00:24:33.230
us through it. It wasn't just me. It was so many

00:24:33.230 --> 00:24:36.569
great people, like what James has done for me,

00:24:36.630 --> 00:24:39.509
what Steve has done for me, Duncan, Dave, so

00:24:39.509 --> 00:24:44.410
many other survivors, Mayday survivors, and people

00:24:44.410 --> 00:24:47.269
that have never been through it also. They just

00:24:47.269 --> 00:24:51.049
took care of us when we needed them. But also

00:24:51.049 --> 00:24:53.049
I had some good people that gave me the good

00:24:53.049 --> 00:24:56.430
push when you needed it to. It's not just sit

00:24:56.430 --> 00:24:59.589
there, put the bandaid on and just let me sit

00:24:59.589 --> 00:25:02.670
there and wallow in self -pity. Some people were

00:25:02.670 --> 00:25:05.190
great where they said, no, you got to do this

00:25:05.190 --> 00:25:07.329
yourself. This is going to be hard, but you have

00:25:07.329 --> 00:25:10.869
to do it. So I hope you see and some of your

00:25:10.869 --> 00:25:16.210
viewers see that as well as to acknowledge the

00:25:16.210 --> 00:25:18.849
fact it's going to be hard. And who do I need?

00:25:19.789 --> 00:25:24.289
at this point? And also, what's my break? Because

00:25:24.289 --> 00:25:27.509
you can't just go forward all this. You do have

00:25:27.509 --> 00:25:30.170
to take that break when it's necessary to acknowledge,

00:25:30.410 --> 00:25:32.730
which I didn't do for the first many years, like

00:25:32.730 --> 00:25:34.970
Steve said, 10 years, to acknowledge the fact,

00:25:35.130 --> 00:25:38.849
look how far I've come. Like I never took pictures

00:25:38.849 --> 00:25:41.869
of my burns. And to go back, I don't remember

00:25:41.869 --> 00:25:44.089
what they're like now, right? Because they've

00:25:44.089 --> 00:25:48.130
healed. And in many ways. I hope you can see

00:25:48.130 --> 00:25:52.970
and hear that it's worth the journey. It is going

00:25:52.970 --> 00:25:55.029
to be hard, but you have to have the team that's

00:25:55.029 --> 00:25:57.509
going to carry you because some people have moved

00:25:57.509 --> 00:26:01.269
on from working with us because they were part

00:26:01.269 --> 00:26:05.009
of that phase and we had to move in different

00:26:05.009 --> 00:26:07.970
directions to grow. And when I heard the term

00:26:07.970 --> 00:26:11.130
Judy Knighton from Toronto, this amazing lady

00:26:11.130 --> 00:26:14.210
that worked at the Burns Centre at Sunny in Toronto

00:26:14.210 --> 00:26:17.940
there, she came. talked to me at one of the burn

00:26:17.940 --> 00:26:20.460
conferences about post -traumatic growth and

00:26:20.460 --> 00:26:23.700
when i heard the term and she explained it it

00:26:23.700 --> 00:26:28.380
was the next phase it was wonderful to hear that

00:26:28.380 --> 00:26:32.900
that we do not have to deal with something that

00:26:32.900 --> 00:26:35.240
is forever like post -traumatic stress disorder

00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:39.920
is not and i truly believe that that we can use

00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:43.920
the all these mechanisms that we have to get

00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:47.769
through this disorder that we're so plagued with.

00:26:48.170 --> 00:26:53.289
And growth is what we have. Like, I can honestly

00:26:53.289 --> 00:26:55.630
say I'm a better man because of this incident.

00:26:56.650 --> 00:26:59.150
I don't know what I would have been like. I actually

00:26:59.150 --> 00:27:01.009
talked with Joanna about it. I wonder what it

00:27:01.009 --> 00:27:04.750
would have been like. Would we still be together?

00:27:05.150 --> 00:27:07.329
You know, all these things of life, when you

00:27:07.329 --> 00:27:10.990
don't have a challenge, we get complacent. But

00:27:10.990 --> 00:27:15.250
now I truly, I truly... I'm so thankful for my

00:27:15.250 --> 00:27:18.009
wife, my family, my friendships, the brotherhoods,

00:27:18.009 --> 00:27:22.609
sisterhoods that we have. And that's where we

00:27:22.609 --> 00:27:25.309
need to show that more, maybe talk a little bit

00:27:25.309 --> 00:27:27.650
more about the growth that happens through trauma,

00:27:27.789 --> 00:27:30.269
through the challenges, through the stresses.

00:27:31.089 --> 00:27:33.690
Just like a muscle, how does a muscle grow? You

00:27:33.690 --> 00:27:36.569
rip it, you tear it, and then it builds, right?

00:27:36.650 --> 00:27:41.190
So that's where we're headed. We're not stuck.

00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:44.400
Beautiful. I'll give you an analogy. I hurt my

00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:48.220
back. I ripped and tore ligaments and tendons.

00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:51.500
Well, I guess the ligaments, excuse me. When

00:27:51.500 --> 00:27:54.059
I was lifting a patient, panic attack a patient

00:27:54.059 --> 00:27:57.440
in a hypervent, not really going to die or anything

00:27:57.440 --> 00:27:59.240
like that, but it was just a Murphy's law. It

00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:00.920
was a straw that broke the camel's back. So I

00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:03.480
ended up tearing my back, was out of work for

00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:07.369
months. again, what you're presented with is

00:28:07.369 --> 00:28:09.390
pills and surgery. And I'm like, no, no, no,

00:28:09.450 --> 00:28:11.650
we're not going down that road. So I ended up

00:28:11.650 --> 00:28:14.329
doing PT right off the bat, chiropractic out

00:28:14.329 --> 00:28:16.309
of my own pocket. And then I found this thing

00:28:16.309 --> 00:28:18.690
called foundation training. And it's just this

00:28:18.690 --> 00:28:21.589
movement practice that the founder of her is

00:28:21.589 --> 00:28:25.009
back. And he was a chiropractor himself and a

00:28:25.009 --> 00:28:27.329
physical, excuse me, a personal trainer. And

00:28:27.329 --> 00:28:29.390
he developed this using yoga and Pilates and

00:28:29.390 --> 00:28:32.640
some other things. And it worked. Like it worked

00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:35.359
so well. My healing went from, you know, five

00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:39.420
degrees to 45 degrees. And on the other side,

00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:41.579
I ended up doing a firefighter fundraiser. And

00:28:41.579 --> 00:28:46.359
one of the events was deadlifting 225 10 times

00:28:46.359 --> 00:28:50.779
with a burpee in between. And it was fine. And

00:28:50.779 --> 00:28:53.680
then because the point was, it wasn't that you

00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:56.619
just got hurt. You went back and go, well, why

00:28:56.619 --> 00:29:00.039
did I get hurt? Why did that call? you know have

00:29:00.039 --> 00:29:02.599
me in a corner or drinking every night or whatever

00:29:02.599 --> 00:29:04.420
it was or that that collection that death by

00:29:04.420 --> 00:29:07.799
a thousand cuts where where can i strengthen

00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:10.579
it and so when i went and addressed all the muscle

00:29:10.579 --> 00:29:13.660
imbalances and the postural issues and then i

00:29:13.660 --> 00:29:16.619
allowed it to heal the other side i was a stronger

00:29:16.619 --> 00:29:20.279
athlete and touch wood that was uh you know over

00:29:20.279 --> 00:29:23.440
10 years ago now and like at 50 years old and

00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:25.440
we're still dead lifting like over 300 pounds

00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:28.039
in the gym at the moment I'm not a strength athlete.

00:29:28.140 --> 00:29:30.400
That's just a normal lift for the programming.

00:29:30.619 --> 00:29:34.579
My point is that injury made me stronger. If

00:29:34.579 --> 00:29:36.700
that had never happened, I probably would have

00:29:36.700 --> 00:29:38.700
declined because of all these imbalances or got

00:29:38.700 --> 00:29:42.319
hurt in a different way. So doing the work is

00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:45.359
figuring out, well, why did I get hurt? Okay,

00:29:45.420 --> 00:29:48.059
let me fix those things. Now I'm going to continue

00:29:48.059 --> 00:29:53.299
to get stronger and stronger. Well, seeing that

00:29:53.299 --> 00:29:57.720
when someone goes through an incident, The acceptance

00:29:57.720 --> 00:30:00.099
of it, the responsibility of it, all those things

00:30:00.099 --> 00:30:04.079
have a huge impact on your path, like what is

00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:05.960
going to be the mechanism, what did cause it.

00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:09.720
And I think when we can show our firefighters,

00:30:09.940 --> 00:30:12.920
when they take that responsibility to move forward,

00:30:13.019 --> 00:30:15.759
I think that's where we're going to start eliminating

00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:19.299
some of that injury and stigma. Taking that initial,

00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:22.779
what's my role in this and how was I involved?

00:30:23.879 --> 00:30:27.099
I saw it last week where some of our crews that

00:30:27.099 --> 00:30:30.420
came to the Fire to Burn Survivor Retreat, talking

00:30:30.420 --> 00:30:32.960
about their incidents naturally and bringing

00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:36.220
it up and processing right in front of us, all

00:30:36.220 --> 00:30:39.920
peer -based because everyone there, there was

00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:42.900
such trust, but because everyone had been through

00:30:42.900 --> 00:30:45.799
something. Like all our crews, all our crews

00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:49.559
responded to that call that it looked like someone

00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:52.000
they knew or it was identifiable from a family

00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:56.240
member. or child. So being peer based, I think

00:30:56.240 --> 00:31:00.500
is like you said, your, your visit or your therapist

00:31:00.500 --> 00:31:02.859
that you worked with, with that program had been

00:31:02.859 --> 00:31:08.019
through a back injury. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's

00:31:08.019 --> 00:31:09.799
interesting. I love listening to you guys because

00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:11.859
you both have these experiences, right? So it's

00:31:11.859 --> 00:31:14.519
like, choose your own adventure. So you can.

00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:18.319
you can focus on the negative like battle the

00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:20.819
mindset that bias that negativity bias it's so

00:31:20.819 --> 00:31:22.920
intrinsic in human beings but especially first

00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:26.079
responders so we have this just because of what

00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:27.940
we've experienced and witnessed in life you can

00:31:27.940 --> 00:31:30.599
get a very strong negativity bias you have an

00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:33.220
injury like that happen if you and lionel talks

00:31:33.220 --> 00:31:35.579
about this growth mindset super is it cliche

00:31:35.579 --> 00:31:38.000
like mindset mindset mindset but it's there's

00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:39.720
something to that there's that the psychology

00:31:39.720 --> 00:31:43.900
of a positive mindset and being grateful and

00:31:43.900 --> 00:31:46.400
focusing your energy on healing and growing and

00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:48.259
beginning better, like you did, James, with your

00:31:48.259 --> 00:31:50.420
back. It's like you came out the other side and

00:31:50.420 --> 00:31:52.660
you're stronger. But if you had just focused

00:31:52.660 --> 00:31:54.640
on why did this happen to me and all that, and

00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:56.640
you spiral and get stuck in this loop. And that's

00:31:56.640 --> 00:32:00.039
where I catch so many people now in this, I call

00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:02.160
it, are you getting them upstream and then you're

00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:04.480
refocusing and re -diverting them so that they

00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:07.140
don't go over the waterfall? Or are they over

00:32:07.140 --> 00:32:09.140
the waterfall and they're in with the logs or

00:32:09.140 --> 00:32:11.180
in that churn and they're just getting pummeled

00:32:11.180 --> 00:32:12.819
and they can't get out of that. And that's where

00:32:12.819 --> 00:32:15.480
I find so many people is that there's negativity

00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:19.279
biases so strong that they are hyper vigilant.

00:32:19.480 --> 00:32:22.000
They don't trust anybody. They've lost all those

00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:24.359
connections because people are rowing upstream

00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:26.819
and away from them. And they're just like, holy

00:32:26.819 --> 00:32:30.119
shit, you went over the waterfall. You've interviewed

00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:32.279
so many people, James, that have gotten through

00:32:32.279 --> 00:32:36.089
to that other side. And it's not one magic. silver

00:32:36.089 --> 00:32:38.750
bullet like what is the common theme that you've

00:32:38.750 --> 00:32:41.769
seen here here i'm interviewing you now what's

00:32:41.769 --> 00:32:43.970
the common theme you've had over a thousand people

00:32:43.970 --> 00:32:45.569
you've interviewed man like what do you what

00:32:45.569 --> 00:32:47.990
is it what is it keeping people focusing on the

00:32:47.990 --> 00:32:51.210
good i mean one of the things is hope like we

00:32:51.210 --> 00:32:53.549
were talking about it's belief actually i just

00:32:53.549 --> 00:32:55.450
shared a video today i don't know if you saw

00:32:55.450 --> 00:32:59.569
it but it was a high school football player These

00:32:59.569 --> 00:33:01.650
kids are about to run in the touchdown. This

00:33:01.650 --> 00:33:04.190
little freaking human bullet comes from like

00:33:04.190 --> 00:33:08.470
the halfway line past all of his friends, snatches,

00:33:08.470 --> 00:33:11.130
doesn't even tackle, just snatches the ball from

00:33:11.130 --> 00:33:13.809
the guy that's about to score a touchdown, turns

00:33:13.809 --> 00:33:16.890
on a dime and then runs that damn thing the length

00:33:16.890 --> 00:33:18.589
of the football field the other way. And the

00:33:18.589 --> 00:33:20.289
reason I put the post out there was like, this

00:33:20.289 --> 00:33:23.250
is when you believe in yourself. No matter the

00:33:23.250 --> 00:33:26.490
apathy and, you know, lack of care about around,

00:33:26.589 --> 00:33:28.839
not that this team didn't care, but. if we're

00:33:28.839 --> 00:33:31.180
referring to the fire service as we hit you know

00:33:31.180 --> 00:33:32.579
talk before we hit record and know we're going

00:33:32.579 --> 00:33:35.160
to get into there's a lot of shoulder shrugging

00:33:35.160 --> 00:33:37.720
and oh well it's the way it always been you know

00:33:37.720 --> 00:33:41.039
when you believe that um you know that you can

00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:43.740
get better i think that is a superpower really

00:33:43.740 --> 00:33:47.339
do um but then also it's it's the mentors so

00:33:47.339 --> 00:33:49.700
for lionel it was it was steve you know it was

00:33:49.700 --> 00:33:52.799
all these other people that yes you believe but

00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:55.420
you're still lying on the floor bleeding So it's

00:33:55.420 --> 00:33:57.180
also the people that have got to pick you up

00:33:57.180 --> 00:33:59.859
and patch you up. And then it's dark. So someone's

00:33:59.859 --> 00:34:01.640
going to got a torch and like, okay, this is

00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:03.640
the way we're going to go. And then, like you

00:34:03.640 --> 00:34:06.279
said, it's a bumpy road, but for all the people,

00:34:06.299 --> 00:34:09.599
it was, it was that, that hope that last piece.

00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:12.940
And this is what's so sad when you hear so many

00:34:12.940 --> 00:34:15.760
people that were right at that dark point, you

00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:18.739
know, I've talked about this on the show all

00:34:18.739 --> 00:34:20.880
the time, because I want to make sure this point

00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:24.150
is understood. If you hear about. people who

00:34:24.150 --> 00:34:27.269
were there, like at that darkest place. When

00:34:27.269 --> 00:34:29.670
we were all young, we were told that suicide

00:34:29.670 --> 00:34:32.809
was cowardly and selfish and think of the family

00:34:32.809 --> 00:34:35.550
and how could you? And you listen to these men

00:34:35.550 --> 00:34:40.010
and women. And through the perfect storm of all

00:34:40.010 --> 00:34:42.150
these issues that led them there, unaddressed

00:34:42.150 --> 00:34:45.329
childhood trauma, sleep deprivation, the trauma

00:34:45.329 --> 00:34:47.889
they saw at work, organizational betrayal, alcohol,

00:34:48.269 --> 00:34:50.210
side effects of psych drugs, all the things.

00:34:51.710 --> 00:34:55.909
their reality has been distorted. So they truly

00:34:55.909 --> 00:34:58.889
believe that they are the reason for their loved

00:34:58.889 --> 00:35:01.789
one's pain. I hear it almost every single time.

00:35:02.250 --> 00:35:05.230
And so now they're at this point where they're

00:35:05.230 --> 00:35:08.550
like, they have no hope left. They're actually

00:35:08.550 --> 00:35:10.929
being selfless and courageous and saying, well,

00:35:10.929 --> 00:35:13.070
if I'm the reason for the pain, I'm going to

00:35:13.070 --> 00:35:15.550
end the pain for my family. So then someone says,

00:35:15.630 --> 00:35:17.210
think about your family. Like I already fucking

00:35:17.210 --> 00:35:20.920
am, you know? So. that is where the hope is gone

00:35:20.920 --> 00:35:24.119
so for me the hope is is getting to that person

00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:27.639
before they get to that point and saying you're

00:35:27.639 --> 00:35:30.679
not a burden we can get you through this i know

00:35:30.679 --> 00:35:33.440
so many people that have been to this same dark

00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:36.079
place and they found their way out and that's

00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:38.059
what they had whether it was a phone call from

00:35:38.059 --> 00:35:40.059
a wife whether it was a dog walking into the

00:35:40.059 --> 00:35:42.360
room there was something that snapped him out

00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:45.989
of it and then they were able to lean into boulder

00:35:45.989 --> 00:35:48.949
crest psychedelics you know whatever their journey

00:35:48.949 --> 00:35:52.650
was and so i think this is the reoccurring theme

00:35:52.650 --> 00:35:57.610
is apart from the absolute anomalies the true

00:35:57.610 --> 00:36:01.030
terminal depressions that we hear about everyone

00:36:01.030 --> 00:36:04.289
else you know there is a path but it's like how

00:36:04.289 --> 00:36:06.710
do you find it and if there's guilt and shame

00:36:06.710 --> 00:36:08.949
in your department and if you're overworked and

00:36:08.949 --> 00:36:11.650
understaffed And then, you know, the options

00:36:11.650 --> 00:36:14.389
are an EAP and you phone eight of them and they

00:36:14.389 --> 00:36:16.389
either don't even answer the phone or they've

00:36:16.389 --> 00:36:19.130
never worked with a first responder before. You

00:36:19.130 --> 00:36:21.489
know, you're just getting hit again and again.

00:36:21.590 --> 00:36:24.250
And there's a Jenga collapse. But if you have

00:36:24.250 --> 00:36:27.230
the right people around you and they're able

00:36:27.230 --> 00:36:29.269
to pick you up and lead you and be like, look,

00:36:29.389 --> 00:36:33.389
here's a forest. I don't know what path is going

00:36:33.389 --> 00:36:35.210
to be the right one for you, but we've got so

00:36:35.210 --> 00:36:38.010
many things in here that are healing. And now

00:36:38.010 --> 00:36:40.320
we'll find it in this clinician. They've worked

00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:42.920
with first responders. They understand us. There

00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:44.699
used to be a firefighter or a cop, whatever it

00:36:44.699 --> 00:36:47.219
was. So I think it's, and I've kind of monologued

00:36:47.219 --> 00:36:49.239
a bit, but it's all of these elements together.

00:36:49.300 --> 00:36:52.500
But the first thing is just being there to stop

00:36:52.500 --> 00:36:54.340
that person thinking they're a burden in the

00:36:54.340 --> 00:36:57.739
first place. And the second thing is to give

00:36:57.739 --> 00:37:00.239
them hope. And giving them hope is, for example,

00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:03.000
someone like Lionel Crowther saying, let me tell

00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:05.239
you a story about what happened in February of

00:37:05.239 --> 00:37:09.360
2007 and where I am today. So I think that's

00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:11.659
the biggest thing. When you have this courageous

00:37:11.659 --> 00:37:13.860
vulnerability, when you create an environment

00:37:13.860 --> 00:37:17.940
for people to say, I'm struggling, and not just

00:37:17.940 --> 00:37:20.780
empathize, but say, let's, you know, hold my

00:37:20.780 --> 00:37:23.320
hand. I'm going to take you to the first step,

00:37:23.639 --> 00:37:26.900
the first level. I think that is how we change

00:37:26.900 --> 00:37:29.579
it. Because right now, so many of our men and

00:37:29.579 --> 00:37:31.659
women are just put into these chaotic programs,

00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:35.000
whether it's EAP or a poorly run peer support.

00:37:36.190 --> 00:37:37.909
Sadly, a lot of them will never be on the show

00:37:37.909 --> 00:37:42.849
because we've already lost them. Yeah. And there's

00:37:42.849 --> 00:37:47.349
so much guilt. Even though, say, we didn't even

00:37:47.349 --> 00:37:50.429
connect with them, we hear of another firefighter

00:37:50.429 --> 00:37:55.530
that does commit suicide. And it feels like we

00:37:55.530 --> 00:37:59.230
missed that opportunity. I truly believe if we

00:37:59.230 --> 00:38:02.230
could just have that moment with them of that

00:38:02.230 --> 00:38:04.820
day or that night, whenever it's... going to

00:38:04.820 --> 00:38:06.440
their their last step but that they're going

00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:10.559
to go through with their plan uh just to have

00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:12.639
that conversation of just to be able to say i

00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:14.559
understand what you're going through i've been

00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:17.139
there and if we could do that a little bit better

00:38:17.139 --> 00:38:19.840
i i'd love to work with a team of people that

00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:22.280
we can help those those firefighters there at

00:38:22.280 --> 00:38:25.460
that last step of that they just can't take it

00:38:25.460 --> 00:38:29.360
anymore lionel in fire ground survival like we

00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:32.360
talk about situational awareness and doing a

00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:35.539
360 and And this I think this applies because

00:38:35.539 --> 00:38:38.539
if you truly want to get upstream, you have to

00:38:38.539 --> 00:38:41.000
have you got to have situational awareness about

00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:44.860
your organization, but it's your people and and

00:38:44.860 --> 00:38:48.980
having eyes on the outliers and and being attuned

00:38:48.980 --> 00:38:51.260
to that people that are withdrawing or going

00:38:51.260 --> 00:38:54.179
down that rabbit hole. And, you know, you said

00:38:54.179 --> 00:38:57.119
it, James, it's like this hope is that that seems

00:38:57.119 --> 00:38:59.400
to be the spark that ignites. But you have to

00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:02.090
have hope is not a plan. You have to have the

00:39:02.090 --> 00:39:04.130
forest. You have to have the mental health Sherpas.

00:39:04.210 --> 00:39:06.730
You have to have all those resources, the psychedelic

00:39:06.730 --> 00:39:09.730
programs, whatever it is, the host of resources

00:39:09.730 --> 00:39:12.650
that you can connect them to. But the main theme

00:39:12.650 --> 00:39:15.630
here is to meet people where they're at. And

00:39:15.630 --> 00:39:18.489
this is what I've been doing lately is I've had

00:39:18.489 --> 00:39:20.349
a lot of people over the freaking waterfall right

00:39:20.349 --> 00:39:24.570
now, which is shocking. But when I say I see

00:39:24.570 --> 00:39:30.099
you, like I see you and I hear you. And I can

00:39:30.099 --> 00:39:31.639
relate because I've been there and done that.

00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:36.139
That is such a lightning rod if they take it.

00:39:36.420 --> 00:39:38.820
Because then if they feel seen and they feel

00:39:38.820 --> 00:39:41.500
heard, then they have hope and that you understand.

00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:44.320
And then you build trust again. Because what

00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:45.940
happens with a lot of these people is they've

00:39:45.940 --> 00:39:48.380
lost trust. They've lost trust in their union

00:39:48.380 --> 00:39:51.719
executive, the people around them, the organization.

00:39:52.159 --> 00:39:54.280
And how do you build trust with someone that's

00:39:54.280 --> 00:39:57.519
lost trust or lost all hope? And to me, it's

00:39:57.519 --> 00:40:01.860
that. Empathy times 100 level where you crawl

00:40:01.860 --> 00:40:04.400
down in that dark hole with your little flashlight.

00:40:05.219 --> 00:40:08.039
And sometimes you need a maglite to give them

00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:11.780
a whack against the head. But it's that. It's

00:40:11.780 --> 00:40:16.900
giving them that hope that you talk about, man.

00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:19.820
And I'm not religious in any manner, but I was

00:40:19.820 --> 00:40:21.380
talking to my girlfriend earlier this morning

00:40:21.380 --> 00:40:23.099
about what I was going to chat about on this.

00:40:23.300 --> 00:40:26.139
And it's like, I've been to a lot of funerals

00:40:26.139 --> 00:40:28.500
where... You know that footsteps in the sand

00:40:28.500 --> 00:40:31.900
kind of analogy? And it's like, where were you,

00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:35.559
God? You've left me. And it's like, well, I was

00:40:35.559 --> 00:40:38.559
actually carrying you. And that's what we need

00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:40.019
to do with some of these people is we need to

00:40:40.019 --> 00:40:41.900
be sitting beside them, steering the bus. We

00:40:41.900 --> 00:40:43.460
need to be shoulder to shoulder with them. We

00:40:43.460 --> 00:40:45.619
need to carry them sometimes to get them back

00:40:45.619 --> 00:40:48.139
on their feet. And I think that's incumbent upon

00:40:48.139 --> 00:40:51.039
all of us as human beings is being the mentor,

00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:53.860
being the peer, being the kind of person that.

00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:57.019
you know, was there for me in my darkest times.

00:40:57.179 --> 00:41:01.119
And it's a give back. So I love what you're doing,

00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:03.139
man. You're getting this, the conversation that

00:41:03.139 --> 00:41:07.900
both of you are doing. It's admirable. Well,

00:41:08.019 --> 00:41:10.119
it's part of it, Steve, what you're doing there,

00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:12.840
like you've been such a support to so many and

00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:15.500
then acknowledge the fact you, you went and got,

00:41:15.539 --> 00:41:19.699
went through the program yourself is huge for

00:41:19.699 --> 00:41:23.980
acceptance and also being honest, huge. Because

00:41:23.980 --> 00:41:27.579
I remember when they said take a knee, the program

00:41:27.579 --> 00:41:30.980
or the slogan that they were using, take a knee,

00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:34.820
just like the footsteps in the sand of we carry

00:41:34.820 --> 00:41:37.579
our people, but we have to show them how to get

00:41:37.579 --> 00:41:40.219
up. We have to be able to show them how to weight

00:41:40.219 --> 00:41:43.420
bear again and get up from taking the knee, how

00:41:43.420 --> 00:41:45.760
to get back, is it back to operations or just

00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:48.219
back to their life first? And that's where those

00:41:48.219 --> 00:41:51.130
models are really coming out now. where they

00:41:51.130 --> 00:41:52.969
can start taking the weight, but they still have

00:41:52.969 --> 00:41:55.949
that support if they do go down again. There's

00:41:55.949 --> 00:41:57.570
not like a three -strike rule and you're done.

00:41:58.010 --> 00:42:00.570
But we have to strengthen those muscles to be

00:42:00.570 --> 00:42:03.269
able to stand up again and take the weight and

00:42:03.269 --> 00:42:06.969
then become the mentor. Like, how do you want

00:42:06.969 --> 00:42:08.889
to move into a peer role? Do you want to become

00:42:08.889 --> 00:42:11.409
the mentor? Maybe get involved with the programs

00:42:11.409 --> 00:42:13.750
and be an instructor. All these ways, there's

00:42:13.750 --> 00:42:15.550
not just go back to your normal because you will

00:42:15.550 --> 00:42:18.210
never go back to normal. You're going to become

00:42:18.210 --> 00:42:20.719
a different person. But we have to show that

00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:23.460
we can become better. You're not going to let

00:42:23.460 --> 00:42:25.300
that incident direct your rest of your life.

00:42:25.480 --> 00:42:28.820
Or it's the many incidents that we go to. But

00:42:28.820 --> 00:42:33.440
if we can show our crews that all those traumas,

00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:35.460
all those things that they experience throughout

00:42:35.460 --> 00:42:39.820
your career, that is actually building a very

00:42:39.820 --> 00:42:42.960
human. Because empathy and compassion are one

00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:45.099
of the most strongest things that we have. And

00:42:45.099 --> 00:42:48.909
I truly believe I'm better for it. When we have

00:42:48.909 --> 00:42:51.429
these calls and we can go back in our truck on

00:42:51.429 --> 00:42:55.210
the way back and become who we are again, that's

00:42:55.210 --> 00:42:57.670
the goal, right? That's the goal we should be

00:42:57.670 --> 00:42:59.809
striving for is that we don't lose the sense

00:42:59.809 --> 00:43:03.150
of self just because I'm a firefighter, right?

00:43:03.349 --> 00:43:06.969
If I can become a better community man, a better

00:43:06.969 --> 00:43:09.869
person for my family and show them the strength

00:43:09.869 --> 00:43:12.690
that why did I get on the job? Like I mentioned

00:43:12.690 --> 00:43:15.239
earlier about Chris Pardee from Phoenix. He uses

00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:18.380
that slogan and his term he uses is live your

00:43:18.380 --> 00:43:21.699
interview, right? Not just to get on the job.

00:43:21.739 --> 00:43:23.260
I'm like, hey, that's it. I'm in the union. I'm

00:43:23.260 --> 00:43:28.199
safe. I'm never going to be fired again. I'm

00:43:28.199 --> 00:43:30.280
going to become, at the end of my career, I'm

00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:32.179
going to remember what I said to get on. And

00:43:32.179 --> 00:43:35.719
am I still doing that? And also, am I the example

00:43:35.719 --> 00:43:40.519
that I wanted on the job? All right. Let me ask

00:43:40.519 --> 00:43:44.900
you. devil's advocate question because this is

00:43:44.900 --> 00:43:47.920
really what just nauseates me at the moment.

00:43:48.039 --> 00:43:52.460
And I did a piece I put out last week on cowardice

00:43:52.460 --> 00:43:54.760
being the unspoken cancer of the fire service.

00:43:54.900 --> 00:43:57.280
And it wasn't the guy that won't go into the

00:43:57.280 --> 00:43:59.159
fire because he bled his tank out on the way

00:43:59.159 --> 00:44:04.840
to the call. It's the lack of action by our people

00:44:04.840 --> 00:44:08.019
to advocate for themselves, their own family,

00:44:08.119 --> 00:44:11.260
but also if they're higher up for their. their

00:44:11.260 --> 00:44:15.280
um fire department locally here the department

00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:19.920
that protects my family they had four suicides

00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:23.579
in four years all young guys a fifth one that

00:44:23.579 --> 00:44:27.280
was an attempt where he survived but that was

00:44:27.280 --> 00:44:29.780
swept completely under the rug and then a sixth

00:44:29.780 --> 00:44:32.139
one who had left the department done a almost

00:44:32.139 --> 00:44:34.579
full career and then he just was recently at

00:44:34.579 --> 00:44:36.480
another department ended up taking his own life

00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:40.420
There is so much resistance and apathy to any

00:44:40.420 --> 00:44:42.460
kinds of change. They even were part of this

00:44:42.460 --> 00:44:44.579
thing called the Blue Sky Project done by this

00:44:44.579 --> 00:44:46.619
human performance company that works with NASA

00:44:46.619 --> 00:44:50.920
and DARPA. They said 24 -72 is your number one.

00:44:51.079 --> 00:44:52.900
What are you doing? You're killing your people.

00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:56.119
And still nothing. And I just got a nasty gram

00:44:56.119 --> 00:44:57.940
from the chief the other day because he didn't

00:44:57.940 --> 00:45:01.320
like my piece at all. And it wasn't aimed at

00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:02.900
any one particular person. So what does that

00:45:02.900 --> 00:45:05.260
say? You just looked in the mirror, motherfucker.

00:45:06.639 --> 00:45:10.039
But, you know, I'm saying this because I don't

00:45:10.039 --> 00:45:12.860
James Gearing doesn't understand how you can

00:45:12.860 --> 00:45:17.059
lose four of your current active duty members

00:45:17.059 --> 00:45:20.900
and have a fifth one that you almost lost and

00:45:20.900 --> 00:45:23.559
do nothing about it. Like the funerals that I

00:45:23.559 --> 00:45:26.880
went to with my friends are what made me go and

00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:29.440
start this podcast and ultimately carry on for

00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:32.780
free with no pension, no pay, no health care,

00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:36.360
because I'm so moved by these deaths. Why is

00:45:36.360 --> 00:45:39.340
it that some of these people in departments are

00:45:39.340 --> 00:45:42.900
so unmoved by the very brotherhood that we're

00:45:42.900 --> 00:45:50.960
supposed to be a part of dying in droves? I'd

00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:57.599
love to jump in, man. There it's it's ego. And

00:45:57.599 --> 00:46:00.190
I and I hate to. And I don't hate to say it.

00:46:00.210 --> 00:46:02.230
That's been my experience. It literally boils

00:46:02.230 --> 00:46:05.050
down to ego. Now, whether you are egocentric

00:46:05.050 --> 00:46:08.889
or a sociopath or narcissistic or whatever label

00:46:08.889 --> 00:46:12.449
you want to give it, it's truly it's ego that's

00:46:12.449 --> 00:46:15.269
getting in the way of this. And there's that

00:46:15.269 --> 00:46:17.949
great artist that Paul Coombs that does those

00:46:17.949 --> 00:46:20.969
pieces where he does this mental health one.

00:46:21.010 --> 00:46:23.289
It just makes me think of this. It's a guy in

00:46:23.289 --> 00:46:27.550
water drowning and all of these anvils of shame.

00:46:28.590 --> 00:46:31.489
pride, ego, right? They're dragging them down.

00:46:31.750 --> 00:46:34.210
And this is what's holding the fire service back

00:46:34.210 --> 00:46:36.949
and the first responder world back is that you

00:46:36.949 --> 00:46:39.510
got to check your freaking ego. If you have four

00:46:39.510 --> 00:46:42.929
people dying within four years, if you crashed

00:46:42.929 --> 00:46:46.110
four fire trucks, you would be doing an investigation

00:46:46.110 --> 00:46:49.489
of a great proportion. If you had two trucks

00:46:49.489 --> 00:46:51.309
come in, if you had a guy fall off the roof.

00:46:51.739 --> 00:46:54.260
fall off a ladder, get burned in a fire. You're

00:46:54.260 --> 00:46:55.920
going to do a post -incident analysis. You're

00:46:55.920 --> 00:46:57.440
going to do an accident investigation. You're

00:46:57.440 --> 00:47:00.260
going to find out root cause issues. If you can't

00:47:00.260 --> 00:47:03.079
check your freaking ego to say root cause is

00:47:03.079 --> 00:47:05.599
we have a toxic culture. We have a shame -based

00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:07.760
culture. People are afraid to reach out. People

00:47:07.760 --> 00:47:10.280
are afraid to speak out. Or you haven't dealt

00:47:10.280 --> 00:47:13.039
with the childhood shit before they got hired

00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:15.039
or anything else in between them and the fire

00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:19.519
service. And now you got to check your fucking

00:47:19.519 --> 00:47:23.420
ego, man. because that just doesn't happen in

00:47:23.420 --> 00:47:26.820
a silo, right? And it's not just the responsibility

00:47:26.820 --> 00:47:29.900
of the fire chief. It's every single person from

00:47:29.900 --> 00:47:31.920
the union executive, or if you're non -unionized,

00:47:31.960 --> 00:47:33.659
all the way down to the probie firefighter. You

00:47:33.659 --> 00:47:38.460
said it. Everyone is responsible. And Lionel

00:47:38.460 --> 00:47:40.340
and I talk about this, about extreme ownership

00:47:40.340 --> 00:47:43.840
all the time. Check your ego, take extreme ownership,

00:47:43.940 --> 00:47:46.920
and do something about it, right? Swallow your

00:47:46.920 --> 00:47:50.780
pride and freaking do something about it. Because

00:47:50.780 --> 00:47:55.219
if you're in a position of authority and like,

00:47:55.260 --> 00:47:57.860
I would go to fricking city council and the mayor

00:47:57.860 --> 00:48:00.739
and say, if it's a money issue, give me a fuck.

00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:03.039
But I would use my own goddamn credit card to

00:48:03.039 --> 00:48:05.679
fix the problem. Right. And to me, it's like,

00:48:05.719 --> 00:48:09.000
how invested are you? You got five stripes, step

00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:11.320
up and leave. And that's the bottom line. And

00:48:11.320 --> 00:48:13.739
I know we, I'm going to go on a fricking rant

00:48:13.739 --> 00:48:16.619
here because how long have we been having these

00:48:16.619 --> 00:48:18.860
conversations? Right. I've been doing this work

00:48:18.860 --> 00:48:22.130
since 2016. okay that's not a lot in people's

00:48:22.130 --> 00:48:24.989
world but maybe even for me that's it's a long

00:48:24.989 --> 00:48:28.630
time that's not to see significant change in

00:48:28.630 --> 00:48:30.789
some of these leaders where i'm like how many

00:48:30.789 --> 00:48:33.949
people have to die before you get your head out

00:48:33.949 --> 00:48:37.789
of your ass honestly like one person like where's

00:48:37.789 --> 00:48:39.949
the value even if you look at it from a monetary

00:48:39.949 --> 00:48:42.710
side like what's your return on investment spend

00:48:42.710 --> 00:48:46.570
100 grand on your department on something and

00:48:46.570 --> 00:48:48.550
you're gonna see massive return you don't buy

00:48:48.550 --> 00:48:51.519
a fire truck And not buy new tires for it and

00:48:51.519 --> 00:48:53.480
change the brakes and change the oil and let

00:48:53.480 --> 00:48:56.739
it rust to shit and fall apart. People are your

00:48:56.739 --> 00:48:58.960
biggest asset. And if you don't invest the time

00:48:58.960 --> 00:49:02.900
in them, you're throwing away years of experience,

00:49:03.239 --> 00:49:06.440
years of institutional knowledge, all of that

00:49:06.440 --> 00:49:08.900
investment and time and energy to recruit them

00:49:08.900 --> 00:49:12.260
and retain them. And they're just dying year

00:49:12.260 --> 00:49:16.059
to year. Like that's a fucking problem. So check

00:49:16.059 --> 00:49:19.909
your goddamn ego. And I'm here to help. I've

00:49:19.909 --> 00:49:22.889
got solutions. And you do as well. So that's

00:49:22.889 --> 00:49:26.050
the biggest thing is, like, I don't know, it's

00:49:26.050 --> 00:49:28.989
check your pride and just ask for help. And that's

00:49:28.989 --> 00:49:33.550
this meet you where you're at and move forward.

00:49:34.789 --> 00:49:37.190
Yeah. It's that lack of responsibility, like

00:49:37.190 --> 00:49:40.409
you said, Steve. We have many, many, they call

00:49:40.409 --> 00:49:43.710
themselves leadership teams that are running

00:49:43.710 --> 00:49:46.510
these departments that are not taking that responsibility

00:49:46.510 --> 00:49:49.780
of, their own, either it's their portfolio, their

00:49:49.780 --> 00:49:55.559
resume, whatever they are standing behind. I

00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:59.480
get very frustrated with it because there's so

00:49:59.480 --> 00:50:02.300
many solutions. There's so many solutions across

00:50:02.300 --> 00:50:05.320
the fire service, but each year they're being

00:50:05.320 --> 00:50:07.860
siloed and they're going, well, we have to step

00:50:07.860 --> 00:50:09.679
outside the box and ask for help from another

00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:12.079
agency. That means we're not doing our job. Is

00:50:12.079 --> 00:50:14.820
that what the problem is? Or is it the fact that

00:50:14.820 --> 00:50:17.889
they just don't know that they exist? Are these

00:50:17.889 --> 00:50:19.690
chiefs conferences that they're having where

00:50:19.690 --> 00:50:22.929
they can give themselves awards for doing such

00:50:22.929 --> 00:50:25.289
a great job, really not looking outside the box

00:50:25.289 --> 00:50:27.570
of asking their people, am I doing a good job?

00:50:28.929 --> 00:50:31.449
Instead of going outside to all these places

00:50:31.449 --> 00:50:35.210
and getting these great accolades, why don't

00:50:35.210 --> 00:50:37.650
they ask their people first? How do you think

00:50:37.650 --> 00:50:40.590
we're doing? Do you feel supported? What can

00:50:40.590 --> 00:50:42.929
I do for you next? How many people have asked?

00:50:43.030 --> 00:50:45.090
I know actually a few chiefs, and Steve, you

00:50:45.090 --> 00:50:48.610
know them too, that actually do this. And I think

00:50:48.610 --> 00:50:50.690
we need to hear more from them. We need to hear

00:50:50.690 --> 00:50:54.389
from great leadership, people that are called

00:50:54.389 --> 00:50:58.050
leaders by their people, not by themselves. But

00:50:58.050 --> 00:51:01.769
I'm thankful. I am so thankful that I work with

00:51:01.769 --> 00:51:05.889
people here in Winnipeg that don't need a rank

00:51:05.889 --> 00:51:08.829
to lead a crew. Like, we have such amazing people

00:51:08.829 --> 00:51:13.829
right now. striving for excellence in ops, people

00:51:13.829 --> 00:51:16.869
that are trying to lead from their crews, no

00:51:16.869 --> 00:51:19.710
matter what rank they are, of supporting them

00:51:19.710 --> 00:51:22.329
in their mental health struggles. And we have

00:51:22.329 --> 00:51:25.590
a whole new leadership team with our union right

00:51:25.590 --> 00:51:28.449
now and an amazing young man, Nick Casper, that

00:51:28.449 --> 00:51:31.409
is stepping up because he had to, because he

00:51:31.409 --> 00:51:33.929
saw what was going on in our department, and

00:51:33.929 --> 00:51:39.340
he is someone I look up to. It doesn't matter

00:51:39.340 --> 00:51:42.900
rank. And these people are doing a great job.

00:51:43.159 --> 00:51:45.639
And it's not about blame, but it's about taking

00:51:45.639 --> 00:51:49.579
responsibility, right? So take the reins, like

00:51:49.579 --> 00:51:54.340
honestly. Yeah, we need that. And thankfully,

00:51:55.019 --> 00:51:58.139
we do have some people right across North America

00:51:58.139 --> 00:52:02.880
that are stepping up because we drastically need

00:52:02.880 --> 00:52:05.440
someone that is going to change what's going

00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:10.030
on. And that's where, thankfully, I feel I have

00:52:10.030 --> 00:52:13.269
a great team of people that support the movement

00:52:13.269 --> 00:52:16.369
of what we want to do. Unfortunately, I wish

00:52:16.369 --> 00:52:19.289
I could do it perfectly and do it well, but we're

00:52:19.289 --> 00:52:21.010
still making some mistakes, but we're making

00:52:21.010 --> 00:52:23.630
saves. And I think that's what we have to concentrate

00:52:23.630 --> 00:52:27.309
on and really explore more about the models that

00:52:27.309 --> 00:52:30.489
we're using. How can we be more accessible? That's

00:52:30.489 --> 00:52:32.969
the biggest problem we have right now is accessibility.

00:52:33.710 --> 00:52:36.130
And how can we get through it? Is it fundraising?

00:52:36.349 --> 00:52:39.369
Is it sponsorships? All these organizations that

00:52:39.369 --> 00:52:41.530
make money off the fire service, how are they

00:52:41.530 --> 00:52:44.269
giving back to us? And is there a way to use

00:52:44.269 --> 00:52:48.210
that more? Because our firefighters, Winnipeg,

00:52:48.210 --> 00:52:50.349
we're one of the lowest paid in Western Canada,

00:52:50.489 --> 00:52:52.809
right? But one of the busiest departments in

00:52:52.809 --> 00:52:55.969
Canada. So how can we support our crews without

00:52:55.969 --> 00:52:58.030
having to use the lack of benefits that we have

00:52:58.030 --> 00:53:00.489
and get the proper health that they need and

00:53:00.489 --> 00:53:04.119
mental health care? That's what I want to see

00:53:04.119 --> 00:53:06.400
next. How can we make it where it's not going

00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:09.519
to be? Well, the kids play hockey, so I can't

00:53:09.519 --> 00:53:12.920
take an extra session with our therapist. Right.

00:53:12.980 --> 00:53:14.980
So all these things we need accessibility without

00:53:14.980 --> 00:53:20.280
any strings attached. So, James, you call it

00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:23.880
cowardice. I know and I know you're trying to

00:53:23.880 --> 00:53:28.400
it's a call to action because, you know, I try

00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:33.199
to approach things where. It's about collaboration

00:53:33.199 --> 00:53:36.559
and cooperation. And I know C is the other word.

00:53:37.500 --> 00:53:40.639
But truly, if you are not doing anything, you're

00:53:40.639 --> 00:53:44.760
implicit in the problem. And you're complicit.

00:53:45.820 --> 00:53:49.480
And so that's the challenge. Do they know any

00:53:49.480 --> 00:53:51.340
better? Do they have their own demons? I try

00:53:51.340 --> 00:53:53.400
to approach things with curiosity. Another C.

00:53:54.179 --> 00:53:57.889
Curiosity and humility as a leader. will move

00:53:57.889 --> 00:54:02.130
you so much further than ego and pride and cowardice,

00:54:02.150 --> 00:54:04.130
truly, right? If you're afraid to do something

00:54:04.130 --> 00:54:05.710
because you're afraid to get fired, like, where

00:54:05.710 --> 00:54:07.429
are your principles? Where are your ethics? Where's

00:54:07.429 --> 00:54:10.110
your integrity? And when you take on those roles,

00:54:10.369 --> 00:54:13.889
you assume those responsibilities. And so it

00:54:13.889 --> 00:54:16.829
is like, I love your callback show, man. You

00:54:16.829 --> 00:54:19.769
should talk more about that. Well, just like

00:54:19.769 --> 00:54:22.150
you were saying, though, 2016 is when I started

00:54:22.150 --> 00:54:24.230
the Behind the Shield podcast. And eight years,

00:54:24.269 --> 00:54:26.619
or is it almost nine years now? doesn't seem

00:54:26.619 --> 00:54:30.280
like a huge amount of time but when you for example

00:54:30.280 --> 00:54:33.159
i mean it's a very graphic representation every

00:54:33.159 --> 00:54:35.460
year i do that firefighter fitness competition

00:54:35.460 --> 00:54:38.579
the fundraiser first year i had six names on

00:54:38.579 --> 00:54:40.559
my back this year i think i had a hundred and

00:54:40.559 --> 00:54:44.760
i think it was 111 112. this is the point and

00:54:44.760 --> 00:54:47.320
i tell people like look if you if you're waiting

00:54:47.320 --> 00:54:51.719
for 200 to die Just let us know. We'll pick out

00:54:51.719 --> 00:54:53.639
the weak ones. We'll just execute them now. We'll

00:54:53.639 --> 00:54:55.260
get to that number and then we'll start fucking

00:54:55.260 --> 00:54:57.360
moving forward. Is that what we're doing? Because

00:54:57.360 --> 00:54:59.300
I'm not seeing anyone actually changing anything.

00:54:59.480 --> 00:55:01.780
And of course, like you said, I am seeing people

00:55:01.780 --> 00:55:04.340
changing them, but no one's going to them and

00:55:04.340 --> 00:55:06.900
say, hey, this department leader, you're doing

00:55:06.900 --> 00:55:08.840
incredible things. How can we learn from you?

00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:11.280
It's these isolated, incredible men and women

00:55:11.280 --> 00:55:13.760
that are in these places. that the rest of the

00:55:13.760 --> 00:55:16.320
nation isn't banding together and saying we need

00:55:16.320 --> 00:55:18.880
to do what they're doing so this is what drives

00:55:18.880 --> 00:55:22.340
me crazy and like there are people out you know

00:55:22.340 --> 00:55:24.219
in all over the country that have never heard

00:55:24.219 --> 00:55:25.820
of behind the shield podcast that have never

00:55:25.820 --> 00:55:29.280
heard of either of your work and you know may

00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:33.719
be completely naive to this issue but locally

00:55:33.719 --> 00:55:36.010
that's not the case Because I have literally

00:55:36.010 --> 00:55:38.849
hand delivered all this, you know, and even recently

00:55:38.849 --> 00:55:41.429
the chief said, we don't have the answers. And

00:55:41.429 --> 00:55:43.230
I'm like sitting there watching this video going,

00:55:43.389 --> 00:55:45.750
what the fuck are you talking about? We do have

00:55:45.750 --> 00:55:48.230
the answer. That just shows you, I don't want

00:55:48.230 --> 00:55:50.329
the answers is what you're actually saying. I

00:55:50.329 --> 00:55:52.429
don't want to do the work to stop these people

00:55:52.429 --> 00:55:54.989
that are wearing the same uniform as me dying.

00:55:55.429 --> 00:55:59.909
And so this call to action is because eight years,

00:55:59.989 --> 00:56:02.909
almost nine years later, I'm so frustrated with

00:56:02.909 --> 00:56:05.099
the kid gloves approach. I mean, there's over

00:56:05.099 --> 00:56:07.920
a thousand episodes out there. I personally have

00:56:07.920 --> 00:56:09.940
written two books and I am in no way, shape or

00:56:09.940 --> 00:56:12.619
form an expert. That's alongside the hundreds

00:56:12.619 --> 00:56:14.400
and hundreds of other books that are on this

00:56:14.400 --> 00:56:17.179
topic. And you're saying you don't have the answers.

00:56:17.659 --> 00:56:20.820
So this is the only thing left. And we all know,

00:56:20.920 --> 00:56:25.219
sadly, that in some agencies, the people who

00:56:25.219 --> 00:56:28.039
don't want to be real firefighters scurry up

00:56:28.039 --> 00:56:30.280
the promotional ladder and they end up in these

00:56:30.280 --> 00:56:33.409
positions. And so we have phenomenal leaders

00:56:33.409 --> 00:56:35.829
wearing bugles. We have phenomenal leaders in

00:56:35.829 --> 00:56:40.550
union leadership in some areas, some areas. But

00:56:40.550 --> 00:56:44.010
we also have self -serving cowards in these positions

00:56:44.010 --> 00:56:45.690
that are more worried about their promotional

00:56:45.690 --> 00:56:49.150
path or, you know, being the next union leader

00:56:49.150 --> 00:56:51.130
than they are actually having the balls to step

00:56:51.130 --> 00:56:53.909
up for their men and women. It's so fucking evident

00:56:53.909 --> 00:56:56.849
to me. So I don't mind being the bad guy. I'll

00:56:56.849 --> 00:56:58.610
call you out because I'm not wearing uniform

00:56:58.610 --> 00:57:01.309
anymore. And you fucking hate that the fact that

00:57:01.309 --> 00:57:03.969
you can't tell me to shut up or discipline me

00:57:03.969 --> 00:57:06.510
for saying what needs to be said for the million

00:57:06.510 --> 00:57:11.070
firefighters in this country. I love it, man.

00:57:11.210 --> 00:57:17.170
For sure. It's how ironic is that we both started

00:57:17.170 --> 00:57:20.530
in this world. What rocketed us into this was

00:57:20.530 --> 00:57:23.949
because of suicide, but we built the resources

00:57:23.949 --> 00:57:27.090
along the way. And we've done a lot of work about

00:57:27.090 --> 00:57:30.429
breaking down that stigma and giving permission

00:57:30.429 --> 00:57:32.570
to people reach out and trying to build resources

00:57:32.570 --> 00:57:35.150
for people. But it's like, there's this lack

00:57:35.150 --> 00:57:37.630
of awareness. And then you kind of just made

00:57:37.630 --> 00:57:40.940
a light bulb go in my... I go on in my head is

00:57:40.940 --> 00:57:43.960
like, even though the light is, even though those

00:57:43.960 --> 00:57:47.659
are there, if they're, is it cognitive dissonance?

00:57:47.719 --> 00:57:50.260
Like, what is it that stops them from going?

00:57:50.599 --> 00:57:53.280
There's a problem. There's some solutions. What's

00:57:53.280 --> 00:57:56.500
stopping them? What's the barrier for them? It

00:57:56.500 --> 00:58:00.059
goes, does it go back to ego? But we, we, we

00:58:00.059 --> 00:58:03.480
took. an attack at stigma and lowering the bar

00:58:03.480 --> 00:58:05.659
for barriers, whether it's improved extended

00:58:05.659 --> 00:58:08.679
health benefits, a team of people that understand

00:58:08.679 --> 00:58:10.960
first responder role, but we knew it was going

00:58:10.960 --> 00:58:12.980
to get worse before it got better. And I think

00:58:12.980 --> 00:58:15.840
I was taught that in incident command operations,

00:58:16.099 --> 00:58:18.920
like for our company officer courses, you come

00:58:18.920 --> 00:58:23.179
up to a burning building and like, we have X

00:58:23.179 --> 00:58:24.940
amount of resources and we have so many people

00:58:24.940 --> 00:58:26.920
and it's, shit's going to get worse before it's

00:58:26.920 --> 00:58:28.460
going to get better, right? Got to pull hoses,

00:58:28.460 --> 00:58:30.659
got to throw ladders, all that stuff. is the

00:58:30.659 --> 00:58:33.400
same thing is it is it the same thing for this

00:58:33.400 --> 00:58:36.860
is that now that we've lowered the the barriers

00:58:36.860 --> 00:58:39.780
around stigma or or made it okay to reach out

00:58:39.780 --> 00:58:42.699
for help there's going to be a tidal wave of

00:58:42.699 --> 00:58:46.599
people that go holy yeah that me too and do we

00:58:46.599 --> 00:58:50.619
i think if this is just for conversation is did

00:58:50.619 --> 00:58:53.900
we have the capacity to manage that that influx

00:58:53.900 --> 00:58:56.300
of people going holy me too i'm in the red i'm

00:58:56.300 --> 00:58:59.480
over the waterfall Are our services that overcome

00:58:59.480 --> 00:59:04.219
by that, that we are sort of like in this inefficient

00:59:04.219 --> 00:59:07.099
spin where we can't help everybody? Or is it

00:59:07.099 --> 00:59:11.119
truly just a leadership piece where there are

00:59:11.119 --> 00:59:13.000
resources, they just aren't going to put their

00:59:13.000 --> 00:59:16.139
heart and soul into getting behind that? I think

00:59:16.139 --> 00:59:18.420
it's both. I think it's both. Yeah, I agree.

00:59:18.500 --> 00:59:22.599
I think it's both. Yeah, I really, well, we see

00:59:22.599 --> 00:59:25.739
it. in many different organizations that they

00:59:25.739 --> 00:59:27.559
they start with the mental health piece and a

00:59:27.559 --> 00:59:30.199
really great example is we just started fire

00:59:30.199 --> 00:59:33.079
ground survival training here in winnipeg and

00:59:33.079 --> 00:59:37.400
the biggest thing i i kept saying to the crews

00:59:37.400 --> 00:59:40.820
is we're training in mayday so guess what's going

00:59:40.820 --> 00:59:44.079
to happen right if you start training people

00:59:44.079 --> 00:59:45.960
in maydays they're going to start having situational

00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:48.659
awareness and condition recognition and they're

00:59:48.659 --> 00:59:50.820
going to start calling the mayday so do we have

00:59:50.820 --> 00:59:54.610
every piece from the start From the dispatcher

00:59:54.610 --> 00:59:57.809
right down to the acting or on -duty chief to

00:59:57.809 --> 01:00:00.809
how to respond in their position. I'm not asking

01:00:00.809 --> 01:00:02.530
you to command and mandate because you're never

01:00:02.530 --> 01:00:05.449
going to do it. I'm asking you, do you know your

01:00:05.449 --> 01:00:08.110
role and responsibility? So then you flip it,

01:00:08.150 --> 01:00:11.010
flip the coin and say for mental health. When

01:00:11.010 --> 01:00:14.889
we started the road to mental readiness, when

01:00:14.889 --> 01:00:17.510
we started that program, did you have every piece

01:00:17.510 --> 01:00:22.190
in place to capture everyone? And you have that.

01:00:22.750 --> 01:00:25.730
And on both sides, I can see both sides that

01:00:25.730 --> 01:00:28.929
we didn't. So how do you do it? Well, you start

01:00:28.929 --> 01:00:30.809
from just doing your own job. Don't worry about

01:00:30.809 --> 01:00:33.170
anyone else. Just do what is your responsibility.

01:00:33.489 --> 01:00:36.630
Say if you're the hydrant, I don't have to worry

01:00:36.630 --> 01:00:38.389
about you taking command because guess what?

01:00:38.409 --> 01:00:41.449
You're on the hydrant. Do your job. And are you

01:00:41.449 --> 01:00:44.070
ready? What do you need from me to do that job

01:00:44.070 --> 01:00:47.550
today? So we start there and break it down step

01:00:47.550 --> 01:00:51.530
by step. If we have to create checklists, that's

01:00:51.530 --> 01:00:54.000
what we can do. We can create that understanding

01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:56.980
of what is your role and this is the expectation

01:00:56.980 --> 01:01:00.440
of it. And I can see that starting, right? And

01:01:00.440 --> 01:01:04.300
that's where I truly believe like those two pieces,

01:01:04.460 --> 01:01:07.159
we can really pull them together and we can break

01:01:07.159 --> 01:01:09.440
it down even more, right? There's no excuses

01:01:09.440 --> 01:01:11.420
in this anymore. I think there's too much information

01:01:11.420 --> 01:01:15.039
out there that we can solve these problems. There's

01:01:15.039 --> 01:01:18.940
no more excuses to use as a crutch. Now we have

01:01:18.940 --> 01:01:22.429
to put it, implement better. And if they're having

01:01:22.429 --> 01:01:25.769
a problem, get rid of the ego, check it at the

01:01:25.769 --> 01:01:28.650
door, understand that if you lose another person,

01:01:28.789 --> 01:01:35.130
what does it cost? Absolutely. Well, just to

01:01:35.130 --> 01:01:38.349
jump in as well, when we talk about those two

01:01:38.349 --> 01:01:40.949
factors, I think that the lack of leadership

01:01:40.949 --> 01:01:44.130
has created this crisis that we're in. I mean,

01:01:44.150 --> 01:01:47.820
look at the recruitment, for example. You see,

01:01:47.820 --> 01:01:50.320
just to use Steve's analogy, you see this raft

01:01:50.320 --> 01:01:53.400
going towards the edge of Niagara Falls and no

01:01:53.400 --> 01:01:55.239
one has said maybe we should start paddling.

01:01:55.340 --> 01:01:57.500
You know, they're just riding it along because,

01:01:57.539 --> 01:01:59.280
oh, I'll be retired before we get to the edge.

01:01:59.340 --> 01:02:02.659
So I'm good. What is interesting is now we're

01:02:02.659 --> 01:02:05.300
in a political environment here in America where

01:02:05.300 --> 01:02:10.460
government organizational finances are being

01:02:10.460 --> 01:02:12.980
analyzed and they're finding all this wasted

01:02:12.980 --> 01:02:15.099
money everywhere. Well, that's what we should

01:02:15.099 --> 01:02:16.900
have been doing with the fire service years ago.

01:02:16.960 --> 01:02:19.539
Because as you know, I talk about the work week

01:02:19.539 --> 01:02:23.019
a lot. If you look at the cost of breaking first

01:02:23.019 --> 01:02:26.039
responders, it's astronomical. If you look at

01:02:26.039 --> 01:02:28.539
the cost of then ultimately dissuading young

01:02:28.539 --> 01:02:32.019
recruits to join our profession, because look

01:02:32.019 --> 01:02:35.420
at the landscape now, it's a disaster. you know,

01:02:35.460 --> 01:02:39.099
then it costs even more. So this is again, and

01:02:39.099 --> 01:02:40.739
I love Steve saying it's going to get worse before

01:02:40.739 --> 01:02:42.940
it gets better. Yes, you will have to go to your

01:02:42.940 --> 01:02:45.619
city and county and say, hey, we need to financially

01:02:45.619 --> 01:02:49.260
invest and get our staffing back to where it

01:02:49.260 --> 01:02:51.360
needs to be. We need to give them a work week

01:02:51.360 --> 01:02:54.019
that actually promotes health, which means an

01:02:54.019 --> 01:02:58.360
extra shift, a D shift. But after we do that.

01:02:59.480 --> 01:03:01.659
everything is going to improve. There are other

01:03:01.659 --> 01:03:03.579
elements, of course, like you said, there's other

01:03:03.579 --> 01:03:06.159
elements, but this is the biggest freaking issue

01:03:06.159 --> 01:03:09.380
is glaring us in the face. Now you may not have

01:03:09.380 --> 01:03:11.860
a landfall of mental health cases just coming

01:03:11.860 --> 01:03:13.460
in because some of the people just needed to

01:03:13.460 --> 01:03:15.400
fucking sleep and spend time with their family.

01:03:16.219 --> 01:03:18.460
You know what I mean? So, and then the money

01:03:18.460 --> 01:03:20.679
that's saved can now start funding, you know,

01:03:20.679 --> 01:03:22.860
culturally competent clinicians that are actually

01:03:22.860 --> 01:03:25.179
on your payroll, you know, good peer support

01:03:25.179 --> 01:03:27.940
teams, a gym in every station. You know, all

01:03:27.940 --> 01:03:29.460
these other things that we know are going to

01:03:29.460 --> 01:03:32.340
add to it. But it's that uncomfortable conversation.

01:03:32.559 --> 01:03:34.820
But, you know, as I say, and I always butcher

01:03:34.820 --> 01:03:37.619
this quote every time, you have to plant the

01:03:37.619 --> 01:03:40.880
seed of the tree under which the shade you'll

01:03:40.880 --> 01:03:43.440
never know. So you have to be courageous enough

01:03:43.440 --> 01:03:45.639
to be the bad guy because it's going to help

01:03:45.639 --> 01:03:47.800
so many other people. And you're not even the

01:03:47.800 --> 01:03:50.260
bad guy. You're the good guy. Once you'd storytell

01:03:50.260 --> 01:03:52.860
to your, you know, whatever it is, city, county.

01:03:53.369 --> 01:03:55.530
Look at the money we're wasting. Look at the

01:03:55.530 --> 01:03:58.130
people that we're burying. We can change this.

01:03:58.289 --> 01:04:02.250
But that takes, because of the apathy and the

01:04:02.250 --> 01:04:05.630
lack of leadership for the last 10 years, you

01:04:05.630 --> 01:04:07.750
might be the person that just got promoted as

01:04:07.750 --> 01:04:10.190
chief. Well, guess what? You're it now. You're

01:04:10.190 --> 01:04:12.829
the one that's going to have to step up and actually

01:04:12.829 --> 01:04:15.750
have this conversation. And 10 years from you,

01:04:15.849 --> 01:04:18.409
your city, your county, your fire department

01:04:18.409 --> 01:04:21.030
will all remember what a fucking hero you were.

01:04:22.409 --> 01:04:25.309
The only other alternative is that they'll remember

01:04:25.309 --> 01:04:27.329
that piece of shit that was at the helm when

01:04:27.329 --> 01:04:29.650
the fucking ship sank. And now your community

01:04:29.650 --> 01:04:32.070
calls 911 and no one shows up because you don't

01:04:32.070 --> 01:04:34.769
have a fire department anymore. That's not too

01:04:34.769 --> 01:04:37.849
far from where we are now. Like I just saw a

01:04:37.849 --> 01:04:41.789
police department offering $100 ,000 sign -on

01:04:41.789 --> 01:04:46.489
bonus. I mean, that says it all. Police and fire

01:04:46.489 --> 01:04:48.780
used to have... hundreds if not thousands of

01:04:48.780 --> 01:04:51.980
people testing for a handful of jobs the science

01:04:51.980 --> 01:04:54.280
the data that everyone's crying for is right

01:04:54.280 --> 01:04:56.780
in front of your fucking face the way you've

01:04:56.780 --> 01:05:00.699
done it doesn't work so do the opposite yeah

01:05:00.699 --> 01:05:04.260
you know that funny that you talk about recruitment

01:05:04.260 --> 01:05:07.059
and retention like there were 700 people applying

01:05:07.059 --> 01:05:10.059
for seven positions when i got hired in 97 in

01:05:10.059 --> 01:05:13.519
kakotlan and that is like not the case now but

01:05:13.519 --> 01:05:15.219
like there's just so many things that you just

01:05:15.219 --> 01:05:17.849
touched on like I've talked to new fire chiefs

01:05:17.849 --> 01:05:19.949
lately. We just had a leadership summit where

01:05:19.949 --> 01:05:21.630
we brought fire chiefs and union executive together.

01:05:21.849 --> 01:05:23.510
And the one thing that I said to all the new

01:05:23.510 --> 01:05:25.269
fire chiefs that I was working in the room, saying

01:05:25.269 --> 01:05:27.130
hello to the people that I've known, seen come

01:05:27.130 --> 01:05:29.269
up through the ranks. And the one thing I said

01:05:29.269 --> 01:05:31.610
to them, and I pass this on from a captain that

01:05:31.610 --> 01:05:33.550
told me when I first got on is leave it better

01:05:33.550 --> 01:05:36.650
than you found it. Leave it. That's all. That's

01:05:36.650 --> 01:05:38.329
your number one job. Leave it better than you

01:05:38.329 --> 01:05:40.190
found it. And you said like, walk out that door

01:05:40.190 --> 01:05:42.150
with your head held high and it might be planting

01:05:42.150 --> 01:05:45.059
trees and you'll never enjoy that shade. But

01:05:45.059 --> 01:05:47.860
the people behind you will. And you have to do

01:05:47.860 --> 01:05:49.719
it. You have to have that mindset that what you're

01:05:49.719 --> 01:05:51.679
doing now is going to make it better for people

01:05:51.679 --> 01:05:54.000
moving forward. The new person coming in on the

01:05:54.000 --> 01:05:56.559
ground level. And I think that's incumbent upon

01:05:56.559 --> 01:05:59.780
us, whether it's mentorship, operationally, psychologically,

01:06:00.599 --> 01:06:03.719
you know, as an administrator. But, you know,

01:06:03.739 --> 01:06:08.639
we have this awareness. And you talked about

01:06:08.639 --> 01:06:12.130
all of the things that will make it better. You

01:06:12.130 --> 01:06:14.510
have to have a willingness to actually do a check

01:06:14.510 --> 01:06:17.190
in, do a gap analysis, find out where your holes

01:06:17.190 --> 01:06:20.230
are and check your pride and ego so that you

01:06:20.230 --> 01:06:23.929
can really be curious of the why, where and what

01:06:23.929 --> 01:06:26.070
we can do to make it better than we found it.

01:06:26.130 --> 01:06:30.860
And literally, that starts with, you know. taking

01:06:30.860 --> 01:06:33.039
care of yourself first. Because if you're not

01:06:33.039 --> 01:06:35.119
in a healthy position as a leader, you're just

01:06:35.119 --> 01:06:37.119
going to project that onto your organization

01:06:37.119 --> 01:06:38.960
and the people around you. And I think that,

01:06:39.000 --> 01:06:41.159
to me, is the biggest call to action of all this.

01:06:41.179 --> 01:06:44.500
All this cowardice or the people that are in

01:06:44.500 --> 01:06:48.559
those positions. If you can pause and just go

01:06:48.559 --> 01:06:51.480
and look inward for a moment and go, what's your

01:06:51.480 --> 01:06:54.679
why? Why are you in this role? Why are you doing

01:06:54.679 --> 01:06:57.460
what you're doing? And am I in a good place?

01:06:57.519 --> 01:07:00.800
Am I in a healthy place? And so, you know, Often

01:07:00.800 --> 01:07:02.920
in an emergency, when you have suicides like

01:07:02.920 --> 01:07:04.320
that, it's like you've got to put your oxygen

01:07:04.320 --> 01:07:07.320
mask on first before you take care of everybody

01:07:07.320 --> 01:07:09.260
else. And I see this in people in leadership

01:07:09.260 --> 01:07:11.559
roles. They are not. They are coming undone.

01:07:11.619 --> 01:07:15.679
The pressures of the county or the city or whatever

01:07:15.679 --> 01:07:17.619
putting on them and then the pressures from downward,

01:07:17.760 --> 01:07:19.840
they're feeling so much pressure. They're a bit

01:07:19.840 --> 01:07:22.840
of an outlier. What they used to be perhaps in

01:07:22.840 --> 01:07:25.280
a world where they felt supported and part of

01:07:25.280 --> 01:07:27.159
a family, now they're out on their own. And they're

01:07:27.159 --> 01:07:30.329
making all these big decisions. And if they haven't

01:07:30.329 --> 01:07:33.590
come into their fully in a good place, fuck man,

01:07:33.650 --> 01:07:37.210
they're vulnerable as hell. So that's also a

01:07:37.210 --> 01:07:39.909
challenge to this whole piece. Yeah. And then

01:07:39.909 --> 01:07:43.389
you see them lash out. And the only last reliable

01:07:43.389 --> 01:07:46.269
thing source that they have is power. Yeah. Right.

01:07:46.289 --> 01:07:48.650
So they use that to their advantage, which is

01:07:48.650 --> 01:07:51.309
the weakest form of leadership out there. Yeah.

01:07:51.369 --> 01:07:53.170
So if they say, well, you're doing it because

01:07:53.170 --> 01:07:56.150
I said. then you can see that sense of character

01:07:56.150 --> 01:07:58.989
that they don't have yet, maybe because lack

01:07:58.989 --> 01:08:01.289
of maturity in the position. And that's where

01:08:01.289 --> 01:08:04.289
we look at that mentorship piece of riding through

01:08:04.289 --> 01:08:07.130
the ranks, understanding each position, and they

01:08:07.130 --> 01:08:09.429
also have an empathy to understand that maybe

01:08:09.429 --> 01:08:12.570
I need to listen to my people more, right? Like

01:08:12.570 --> 01:08:14.929
you said, the gap analysis is huge to see, okay,

01:08:14.989 --> 01:08:17.430
where are we right now? Maybe let's do a pause

01:08:17.430 --> 01:08:19.149
instead of looking at all these great initiatives

01:08:19.149 --> 01:08:21.859
that we're moving forward with. Should we be

01:08:21.859 --> 01:08:25.239
moving forward before we're completing this next?

01:08:25.260 --> 01:08:27.300
Or is it just a checklist we're hitting? And

01:08:27.300 --> 01:08:30.380
that's it, Lionel. It's this checkbox mentality.

01:08:30.659 --> 01:08:31.960
And I know, James, you've talked about this.

01:08:32.380 --> 01:08:33.960
Don't just do it because you think it's the right

01:08:33.960 --> 01:08:36.520
thing to do. Believe in it. And truly put the

01:08:36.520 --> 01:08:39.619
time and energy to do it properly. Because if

01:08:39.619 --> 01:08:41.500
you do something half -assed, like, fuck, man,

01:08:41.539 --> 01:08:43.380
our radar is going to pick that up right away.

01:08:43.840 --> 01:08:47.840
And our bullshit meter is so sensitive that we're

01:08:47.840 --> 01:08:49.539
going to go, that's just a checkbox. You don't

01:08:49.539 --> 01:08:51.590
really give a shit. and you're just like that's

01:08:51.590 --> 01:08:54.189
something that hr said i have to do right so

01:08:54.189 --> 01:08:58.970
that is and when it comes to awareness like this

01:08:58.970 --> 01:09:00.470
is something that lionel is doing and i know

01:09:00.470 --> 01:09:02.770
james you've talked about this is education is

01:09:02.770 --> 01:09:05.069
critical you have the awareness man you've done

01:09:05.069 --> 01:09:07.890
if people actually paid attention to this podcast

01:09:07.890 --> 01:09:10.329
world or or any of the literature that's out

01:09:10.329 --> 01:09:12.289
there we have freaking awareness whether you

01:09:12.289 --> 01:09:14.829
choose to believe it or not but where it's lacking

01:09:14.829 --> 01:09:17.710
is this education on not only at the first responder

01:09:17.710 --> 01:09:23.319
level hr workers comp but leadership man there's

01:09:23.319 --> 01:09:26.640
a lack you just aren't intuitively and well some

01:09:26.640 --> 01:09:28.920
people are awesome human beings uh intuitively

01:09:28.920 --> 01:09:32.079
but if you come into those roles where you make

01:09:32.079 --> 01:09:34.500
impact and and there's budgetary pieces like

01:09:34.500 --> 01:09:37.479
if you don't have those hard skills of being

01:09:37.479 --> 01:09:39.939
a good freaking human being empathy compassion

01:09:39.939 --> 01:09:43.720
curiosity humility that is those are intrinsic

01:09:43.720 --> 01:09:46.260
qualities of a good leader not positional authority

01:09:46.260 --> 01:09:50.020
like a real true players coach right that has

01:09:50.020 --> 01:09:52.659
their people's back, that's what's going to make

01:09:52.659 --> 01:09:54.539
impact. And that's where we have to start. I

01:09:54.539 --> 01:09:57.800
was just talking to Daryl Black and Grant Renis

01:09:57.800 --> 01:09:59.579
yesterday, or talking to Grant this morning,

01:09:59.659 --> 01:10:03.159
and they're about bringing up leaders so that

01:10:03.159 --> 01:10:06.039
they have that knowledge and that power, right?

01:10:06.119 --> 01:10:08.579
Because that's truly where it starts, is awareness,

01:10:08.859 --> 01:10:11.460
education, and then all other trickle -down supports.

01:10:12.020 --> 01:10:15.020
Because if it's just that and nothing else below

01:10:15.020 --> 01:10:17.800
that, the house of cards falls apart. It's a

01:10:17.800 --> 01:10:21.109
Jenga. And you've taken a sledgehammer to the

01:10:21.109 --> 01:10:23.789
fucking Jenga. It's not just one block, right?

01:10:24.189 --> 01:10:28.250
So truly. It's an interesting concept. You just

01:10:28.250 --> 01:10:30.069
touched on this, Steve. And I want to go to the

01:10:30.069 --> 01:10:33.850
ownership of the regular firefighters as well,

01:10:33.890 --> 01:10:35.869
because that's another call to action for me.

01:10:35.909 --> 01:10:37.850
But before we do, just one last area. And this

01:10:37.850 --> 01:10:40.770
is specifically kind of union leaders, officers.

01:10:43.100 --> 01:10:45.340
There's a guy called Sid Guru who was on Joe

01:10:45.340 --> 01:10:48.159
Rogan's podcast, and they were having a great

01:10:48.159 --> 01:10:51.800
conversation. And Sid Guru was saying that everyone

01:10:51.800 --> 01:10:54.399
is hurting. And Joe made some comment about,

01:10:54.479 --> 01:10:56.840
yeah, apart from the heads of big pharma. And

01:10:56.840 --> 01:10:59.560
he goes, they are too. And then they just carried

01:10:59.560 --> 01:11:04.119
on talking. But that stuck with me, man. If you

01:11:04.119 --> 01:11:07.670
can sleep well in your bed. and you're the head

01:11:07.670 --> 01:11:10.050
of Purdue Pharma knowing that OxyContin is the

01:11:10.050 --> 01:11:13.010
reason we have an opioid crisis now, if you're

01:11:13.010 --> 01:11:15.010
the head of Philip Morris knowing that cigarettes

01:11:15.010 --> 01:11:18.529
kills millions of people around the globe, McDonald's,

01:11:18.550 --> 01:11:21.050
Coca -Cola, you name it, insert thing that they

01:11:21.050 --> 01:11:24.130
know damn fucking well that their products are

01:11:24.130 --> 01:11:27.090
costing lives, but they're gaining financially,

01:11:27.729 --> 01:11:32.810
there is no argument that there is sociopathy

01:11:32.810 --> 01:11:35.069
there. There is a mental health issue there.

01:11:35.710 --> 01:11:38.329
Any compassionate little boy and girl that grew

01:11:38.329 --> 01:11:40.869
up chasing a ball and laughing at butterflies

01:11:40.869 --> 01:11:44.090
doesn't become that kind of human being unless

01:11:44.090 --> 01:11:47.010
something's happened. I'm not saying it's quite

01:11:47.010 --> 01:11:50.789
the same level of that, but one of my perspectives

01:11:50.789 --> 01:11:54.430
is if you can sleep at night, having lost four,

01:11:54.670 --> 01:11:58.289
five, six firefighters to suicide, more to cancer,

01:11:58.470 --> 01:12:02.649
more to heart disease, divorces, murder, suicides,

01:12:02.649 --> 01:12:07.050
whatever. maelstrom that you've got in your department

01:12:07.050 --> 01:12:10.750
and you're unfazed by it as a union leader, as

01:12:10.750 --> 01:12:13.550
the chief, whatever it is, just like you said,

01:12:13.609 --> 01:12:16.630
Steve, that is a call to action for you to look

01:12:16.630 --> 01:12:19.750
in the mirror and you to ask yourself, why am

01:12:19.750 --> 01:12:22.170
I not moved by that? You're going to have one

01:12:22.170 --> 01:12:25.569
of two answers. I need to change. I need to grow

01:12:25.569 --> 01:12:27.229
from this and I need to turn the ship around.

01:12:27.850 --> 01:12:30.409
Or you shrug your shoulders and you just get

01:12:30.409 --> 01:12:32.510
on and you. Clock out at five o 'clock and you

01:12:32.510 --> 01:12:34.770
go home while your men and women are being forced

01:12:34.770 --> 01:12:37.390
24 hour mandatories over and over and over again.

01:12:37.850 --> 01:12:40.189
That person needs to just step aside and let

01:12:40.189 --> 01:12:42.329
someone else lead. The other person has the guts

01:12:42.329 --> 01:12:44.850
to actually work on themselves and start advocating

01:12:44.850 --> 01:12:47.050
for their people. But I think even that is part

01:12:47.050 --> 01:12:49.649
of the mental health conversation is the mental

01:12:49.649 --> 01:12:53.529
health of the apparently cowardly leaders that

01:12:53.529 --> 01:12:56.449
we see, because I hope some of them that will

01:12:56.449 --> 01:12:59.289
be. beginning of a beautiful growth journey for

01:12:59.289 --> 01:13:01.289
them that would positively affect their lives.

01:13:02.430 --> 01:13:05.029
Yeah. And imagine where they end up, like imagine

01:13:05.029 --> 01:13:07.350
where they end up acknowledging. And then the

01:13:07.350 --> 01:13:09.789
sense that their crews are going to listen to

01:13:09.789 --> 01:13:11.390
them more because they acknowledge the fact,

01:13:11.489 --> 01:13:13.829
Hey, we're heading this direction. We need to

01:13:13.829 --> 01:13:16.229
pivot. Fuck man. Research and development has

01:13:16.229 --> 01:13:18.829
shown us that where the path we're heading is

01:13:18.829 --> 01:13:20.989
not going to work out for where we want to be.

01:13:21.050 --> 01:13:24.210
And just that sense of being honest or even using

01:13:24.210 --> 01:13:26.569
their sense of values based leadership. that

01:13:26.569 --> 01:13:29.449
they can actually acknowledge the fact that this

01:13:29.449 --> 01:13:31.350
hate, what we're looking at, this isn't working,

01:13:31.489 --> 01:13:35.850
right? I wrote down sociopath when you were talking

01:13:35.850 --> 01:13:40.329
about that type of leader, because that's the

01:13:40.329 --> 01:13:42.689
cowardice that you're talking about, is that

01:13:42.689 --> 01:13:45.270
type of person that sees an issue, doesn't do

01:13:45.270 --> 01:13:48.550
anything about it, and can sleep at night. Like,

01:13:48.590 --> 01:13:51.750
you're a sociopath, and then you have, that is

01:13:51.750 --> 01:13:54.229
extreme cowardice. But the leader that Lionel

01:13:54.229 --> 01:13:57.310
talks about, We're all human beings. Fuck, man.

01:13:57.329 --> 01:13:59.630
I've made tons of mistakes as a leader, as a

01:13:59.630 --> 01:14:03.710
human being, as a father, as a husband. But man,

01:14:03.869 --> 01:14:06.689
I ate a lot of crow and I put my foot in my mouth

01:14:06.689 --> 01:14:09.050
a ton. But I've also taken ownership of that

01:14:09.050 --> 01:14:11.310
and said, I can do better. Tomorrow's a new day.

01:14:11.470 --> 01:14:13.739
And I say that to my daughter. Like, I wasn't

01:14:13.739 --> 01:14:16.199
the fucking greatest dad the other day. I lost

01:14:16.199 --> 01:14:19.020
my shit on you. You know, I didn't have any patience.

01:14:19.039 --> 01:14:21.220
And I'm way better now. We've talked about this

01:14:21.220 --> 01:14:24.539
with my kid. And she's like, yeah, you're a much

01:14:24.539 --> 01:14:27.020
different human being now. But that's with eating

01:14:27.020 --> 01:14:29.340
a lot of crow, showing some humility, taking

01:14:29.340 --> 01:14:31.840
extreme ownership, and then growing and learning

01:14:31.840 --> 01:14:33.640
and saying, what do I need to do differently

01:14:33.640 --> 01:14:36.060
to show up differently in the world? Whether

01:14:36.060 --> 01:14:39.739
it's at home, at work, or wherever. But I think

01:14:39.739 --> 01:14:42.510
it's that the crux of this is... being humble

01:14:42.510 --> 01:14:45.689
enough to do that and to also forgive yourself

01:14:45.689 --> 01:14:48.630
for making mistakes. We're all human beings and

01:14:48.630 --> 01:14:52.210
the fire service is horrible for generational

01:14:52.210 --> 01:14:56.810
trauma. Like we can talk about Germany and people

01:14:56.810 --> 01:14:58.689
through war -torn countries and they have this

01:14:58.689 --> 01:15:01.109
epigenetic piece where they really, there's no

01:15:01.109 --> 01:15:03.550
excuse. They genetically have been altered because

01:15:03.550 --> 01:15:06.029
of the trauma they've experienced. The same for

01:15:06.029 --> 01:15:08.750
the fire service. You have leaders coming through

01:15:08.750 --> 01:15:11.149
an organization that has generational trauma

01:15:11.149 --> 01:15:14.630
and toxic work culture, and they are literally

01:15:14.630 --> 01:15:16.989
just a product of that. And then they step into

01:15:16.989 --> 01:15:21.029
these ranks and roles. And I have a lot of compassion

01:15:21.029 --> 01:15:24.510
for them because you're hurting human being the

01:15:24.510 --> 01:15:26.890
way you're showing up. And if we approach the

01:15:26.890 --> 01:15:29.289
leaders like we expect them to show up for their

01:15:29.289 --> 01:15:31.869
people and say, what's going on with you? What's

01:15:31.869 --> 01:15:34.609
your history? What's your story? Let's fix that

01:15:34.609 --> 01:15:37.220
root cause. And maybe you're going to turn into

01:15:37.220 --> 01:15:40.659
a fucking amazing leader because you go, and

01:15:40.659 --> 01:15:42.520
I've got fire chiefs coming through my program

01:15:42.520 --> 01:15:44.979
right now, our program, because they're like,

01:15:45.000 --> 01:15:47.680
I'm so hurting. I'm an outlier in my community

01:15:47.680 --> 01:15:50.119
because I'm in this rank. I don't have peers

01:15:50.119 --> 01:15:52.840
that I can talk to. I don't have mentors that

01:15:52.840 --> 01:15:55.300
can guide me through this stuff. And literally,

01:15:55.579 --> 01:15:59.060
you know, they're taking a knee. Let's let them

01:15:59.060 --> 01:16:01.260
take a knee. Let's give them permission to reach

01:16:01.260 --> 01:16:03.239
out for help. And maybe that's how we fix this

01:16:03.239 --> 01:16:06.500
problem. Or the dinosaurs die in the tar pits

01:16:06.500 --> 01:16:12.140
and we wait for them to retire. Exactly. I agree,

01:16:12.220 --> 01:16:15.260
Steve, because then we hammer on this leadership

01:16:15.260 --> 01:16:19.020
or the leadership that we don't want. Yeah. And

01:16:19.020 --> 01:16:21.260
then we're not doing anything about it to assist

01:16:21.260 --> 01:16:24.640
them to accept like if a chief does take a knee

01:16:24.640 --> 01:16:27.579
or a leadership member takes a knee and says,

01:16:27.659 --> 01:16:30.039
I don't know what to do next. We hammer the crap

01:16:30.039 --> 01:16:33.819
out of them. Right. So. But so we make a better

01:16:33.819 --> 01:16:37.340
team. We say, okay, how can I help you? Even

01:16:37.340 --> 01:16:40.060
though they might be above us, how can I help?

01:16:40.119 --> 01:16:42.899
How can I be part of that change as a firefighter

01:16:42.899 --> 01:16:45.359
to a company officer to a chief officer, right?

01:16:45.420 --> 01:16:47.920
Within the ranks and have that mentorship right

01:16:47.920 --> 01:16:50.880
from the bottom up, right? And top down, right?

01:16:50.920 --> 01:16:53.979
They accept it, right? We have it. We have it

01:16:53.979 --> 01:16:55.920
in place, but now we just got to get it out there,

01:16:55.939 --> 01:16:59.500
right? Or it's not just about. It has to be coming

01:16:59.500 --> 01:17:01.819
from the inside. How many people across our fire

01:17:01.819 --> 01:17:04.760
service say, well, we need a chief from our own

01:17:04.760 --> 01:17:08.079
that has to raise up, right? Yeah. We have that.

01:17:08.119 --> 01:17:10.539
I've heard it many times. But to have someone

01:17:10.539 --> 01:17:13.539
from a fresh perspective that comes up or from

01:17:13.539 --> 01:17:17.159
another department, great. But what if we mentor

01:17:17.159 --> 01:17:19.840
our people from who does want to become that

01:17:19.840 --> 01:17:22.479
person, who does want to be our champion to take

01:17:22.479 --> 01:17:24.899
us to the next level, right, and support them,

01:17:24.960 --> 01:17:27.760
even though they may falter? If they falter and

01:17:27.760 --> 01:17:29.779
maybe don't make it and make a poor decision,

01:17:30.000 --> 01:17:33.899
we don't break them. That's including union and

01:17:33.899 --> 01:17:37.399
our department. Absolutely. Well, Steve, you

01:17:37.399 --> 01:17:39.159
talked about family. That was a really good segue.

01:17:39.239 --> 01:17:41.539
Let's talk now about sphere of influence. So

01:17:41.539 --> 01:17:43.579
we've been kind of pointing up the top of the

01:17:43.579 --> 01:17:47.100
chain. The piece that I did covered all ranks

01:17:47.100 --> 01:17:49.399
and I never rose above firefighters. So that's

01:17:49.399 --> 01:17:52.920
my rank and I'm very proud of it. But where I

01:17:52.920 --> 01:17:55.939
struggle again with the resistance of this conversation,

01:17:56.640 --> 01:17:58.840
At the lowest level, and I will preface this,

01:17:58.899 --> 01:18:02.199
a lot of our brothers and sisters are so overworked

01:18:02.199 --> 01:18:05.020
and sleep deprived, they don't have the capacity

01:18:05.020 --> 01:18:08.039
to critically think. And insert COVID, perfect

01:18:08.039 --> 01:18:11.859
example. You're either pro or anti -mask. There

01:18:11.859 --> 01:18:14.260
was no middle -of -the -road thinking at all.

01:18:14.340 --> 01:18:18.399
You had fear, you had fatigue, and we saw a beautiful

01:18:18.399 --> 01:18:21.159
Petri dish of what happens, how easily it is

01:18:21.159 --> 01:18:24.760
to just get people to make no decisions. That

01:18:24.760 --> 01:18:28.109
being said... One of the things that I really

01:18:28.109 --> 01:18:30.149
struggle with, again, with this department locally

01:18:30.149 --> 01:18:32.029
and some of these firefighters I'm talking to

01:18:32.029 --> 01:18:34.050
and my friends who I knew before they ever even

01:18:34.050 --> 01:18:37.789
joined, you know, became firefighters, is a complete

01:18:37.789 --> 01:18:41.050
indoctrination, almost like a brainwashing where

01:18:41.050 --> 01:18:43.010
like, oh, they'll never go for that. Oh, we don't

01:18:43.010 --> 01:18:44.890
have the money. Now, these men and women are

01:18:44.890 --> 01:18:48.430
working 56 hours, no Kelly, frequent mandatory

01:18:48.430 --> 01:18:51.189
or doesn't matter if it's mandatory or not, frequent

01:18:51.189 --> 01:18:54.090
holes in their staffing. So a lot of us, as we

01:18:54.090 --> 01:18:56.189
know, we would take that OT because we didn't

01:18:56.189 --> 01:18:57.850
want our friend to get mandatory. So it's the

01:18:57.850 --> 01:19:01.189
same exact issue. But, you know, for a long,

01:19:01.250 --> 01:19:03.489
long time, a lot of mandatory overtime as well.

01:19:03.510 --> 01:19:07.369
So 80 hours a week. That has such a detrimental

01:19:07.369 --> 01:19:10.189
effect. Let's take the firefighter out for a

01:19:10.189 --> 01:19:14.010
second on the relationships of the spouses at

01:19:14.010 --> 01:19:16.590
home. on the relationships with the children,

01:19:16.710 --> 01:19:19.470
on the health of the children. We know how detrimental

01:19:19.470 --> 01:19:22.390
sleep deprivation is to reproductive health and

01:19:22.390 --> 01:19:24.729
how everything from infertility to Down syndrome

01:19:24.729 --> 01:19:28.010
and pediatric cancer are far greater in our community.

01:19:28.489 --> 01:19:32.189
So for me, I get it. We're heroes. We're impenetrable.

01:19:32.390 --> 01:19:36.130
So take the focus off you. Fight for your family.

01:19:36.250 --> 01:19:38.029
Fight for time with your family. That is the

01:19:38.029 --> 01:19:43.040
ultimate currency. So sphere of influence. The

01:19:43.040 --> 01:19:45.500
overworked, sleep deprived firefighter, how can

01:19:45.500 --> 01:19:48.260
we shift their perspective to realize that each

01:19:48.260 --> 01:19:52.000
and every one of us, of us, yes, does have the

01:19:52.000 --> 01:19:54.600
ability to be a tiny piece in this jigsaw puzzle

01:19:54.600 --> 01:19:57.699
and force change, not only for our careers, but

01:19:57.699 --> 01:20:01.399
for the people that come after us. I've got lots

01:20:01.399 --> 01:20:03.239
to say about this, but go ahead. I'll let you

01:20:03.239 --> 01:20:07.939
go first. Thanks, Stevie. Home is ground zero.

01:20:08.899 --> 01:20:12.439
And I talk about this often is that. If you don't

01:20:12.439 --> 01:20:14.340
sort your shit out, you're going to transmit

01:20:14.340 --> 01:20:16.960
your trauma on your family. But there's this

01:20:16.960 --> 01:20:19.840
involuntary thing that happens, and it's almost

01:20:19.840 --> 01:20:22.779
like work addiction. And some people like the

01:20:22.779 --> 01:20:26.800
overtime because it helps pay the bills and everyone's

01:20:26.800 --> 01:20:28.260
got financial troubles. But then there's this

01:20:28.260 --> 01:20:31.199
forced piece that you talk about where, and I

01:20:31.199 --> 01:20:33.560
see this, my own girlfriend will not take a sick

01:20:33.560 --> 01:20:35.340
day, even if she's sick, because she doesn't

01:20:35.340 --> 01:20:37.859
want someone to be forced in overtime or work

01:20:37.859 --> 01:20:41.359
too much. this integrity that we have that we

01:20:41.359 --> 01:20:42.979
don't want our other brothers and sisters to

01:20:42.979 --> 01:20:46.539
hurt. So we take on that pain. And there's this

01:20:46.539 --> 01:20:49.279
ripple effect that happens, right? And you and

01:20:49.279 --> 01:20:51.359
it's unsustainable. And you've talked about this

01:20:51.359 --> 01:20:54.060
all the time. It's just it's completely unsustainable.

01:20:54.239 --> 01:20:57.079
But because you've selected people into an industry

01:20:57.079 --> 01:21:00.819
that have integrity that have this self starter

01:21:00.819 --> 01:21:04.800
mentality, or this community first mentality

01:21:04.800 --> 01:21:09.210
is that what suffers. And so it's this This very

01:21:09.210 --> 01:21:11.909
teeter -totter kind of thing where something's

01:21:11.909 --> 01:21:13.970
got to give. And what's happening on the home

01:21:13.970 --> 01:21:16.109
front, and you talk about infertility. I just

01:21:16.109 --> 01:21:20.029
read this IFF report about amount of miscarriages

01:21:20.029 --> 01:21:22.609
that are happening at home. Shift work. We know

01:21:22.609 --> 01:21:25.710
that IARC has said that firefighting is a class

01:21:25.710 --> 01:21:28.609
one carcinogen. Night shift work is also contributed

01:21:28.609 --> 01:21:31.289
to that, right? We know that there's known hazards

01:21:31.289 --> 01:21:34.090
and shift pattern is one contributing factor

01:21:34.090 --> 01:21:37.390
to that. But if you don't sort your stuff out,

01:21:37.449 --> 01:21:40.000
man. You are going to transmit that on your family

01:21:40.000 --> 01:21:42.960
and you're going to hurt people. And I look at

01:21:42.960 --> 01:21:47.199
the impact that my daughter had, like that I

01:21:47.199 --> 01:21:50.100
had on my daughter. And I wish I could go back

01:21:50.100 --> 01:21:54.199
in time, James, and undo some of that. I have

01:21:54.199 --> 01:21:56.960
a lot of guilt and shame around that. I wanted

01:21:56.960 --> 01:21:58.779
to be a better father. But I guess, you know,

01:21:58.840 --> 01:22:03.520
it's truly a culmination of things that if the

01:22:03.520 --> 01:22:07.039
organizations or even the junior firefighter

01:22:07.039 --> 01:22:10.529
doesn't. acknowledge and make an effort to change

01:22:10.529 --> 01:22:13.409
because we can collectively go enough is enough

01:22:13.409 --> 01:22:17.189
we have to we have to go to city council we have

01:22:17.189 --> 01:22:19.109
to sit in front of the decision makers and say

01:22:19.109 --> 01:22:22.590
this is affecting not only my personal health

01:22:22.590 --> 01:22:25.550
my physical health my mental health spiritual

01:22:25.550 --> 01:22:28.270
health but it's impacting my family and if you

01:22:28.270 --> 01:22:31.590
can't make change because of that we always say

01:22:31.590 --> 01:22:34.109
family first well there's two i have two families

01:22:34.640 --> 01:22:37.079
I have my own family, and then I have my firefighter

01:22:37.079 --> 01:22:41.039
family. And it is incumbent upon us to say something.

01:22:41.100 --> 01:22:45.100
We can't just accept it anymore for it is what

01:22:45.100 --> 01:22:47.819
it is. That's horse shit, and that's a cop -out.

01:22:47.960 --> 01:22:49.819
And I don't care where you are on the totem pole.

01:22:50.420 --> 01:22:55.819
Like, you have a say. And you have a right to

01:22:55.819 --> 01:22:58.960
a psychologically safe or mentally safe or physically

01:22:58.960 --> 01:23:03.819
safe job. You do. So you have to speak up. Nothing

01:23:03.819 --> 01:23:06.159
changes without people speaking up and taking

01:23:06.159 --> 01:23:09.819
the torch. So that's my perspective. Lionel,

01:23:09.819 --> 01:23:12.739
I'd love to hear yours too, brother. Well, you

01:23:12.739 --> 01:23:15.800
can definitely see it now because we've started

01:23:15.800 --> 01:23:18.640
the conversation across so many different platforms

01:23:18.640 --> 01:23:20.840
of mental health in the last, say, 10 years.

01:23:21.199 --> 01:23:25.699
But seeing our personal side of things, like

01:23:25.699 --> 01:23:28.920
I said, like you said, Steve, there are so many

01:23:28.920 --> 01:23:32.180
instances where those calls came home and...

01:23:32.720 --> 01:23:37.060
it was okay to for the kids to have to be shuttled

01:23:37.060 --> 01:23:40.140
away and mom said well dad had a bad day right

01:23:40.140 --> 01:23:43.619
and which frustrates me now because i didn't

01:23:43.619 --> 01:23:47.899
see it then i didn't see it as much or that um

01:23:47.899 --> 01:23:50.680
spilt milk was the end of the world right with

01:23:50.680 --> 01:23:52.640
the kids would do something it wasn't what they

01:23:52.640 --> 01:23:56.260
did is what that call did and how do we how can

01:23:56.260 --> 01:24:00.750
we better Acknowledge that before we have to

01:24:00.750 --> 01:24:03.850
have our kids or our spouses involved, right?

01:24:03.949 --> 01:24:06.350
Do we start with the rookies? How do we capture

01:24:06.350 --> 01:24:08.350
those people that are halfway through or at the

01:24:08.350 --> 01:24:10.590
end of their career so they don't retire and

01:24:10.590 --> 01:24:14.390
have to drink or do other things to try to forget?

01:24:15.449 --> 01:24:17.930
Because the worst thing that we can do is numb

01:24:17.930 --> 01:24:22.210
our people, numb ourselves, to be able to go

01:24:22.210 --> 01:24:26.460
through a normal day, right? One of the best

01:24:26.460 --> 01:24:29.119
gifts I think I was given was the fact of being

01:24:29.119 --> 01:24:32.880
present of what I was looking for, right? Not

01:24:32.880 --> 01:24:34.520
just always looking forward to getting through

01:24:34.520 --> 01:24:37.300
that day or look back into how good it used to

01:24:37.300 --> 01:24:40.739
be, right? But how about right now? What is going

01:24:40.739 --> 01:24:42.180
to be the best things that are going to get us

01:24:42.180 --> 01:24:46.439
through that? And that's, like I said, that's

01:24:46.439 --> 01:24:49.460
one of the best things I think I was given. And

01:24:49.460 --> 01:24:53.500
also the fact of don't be afraid. to talk to

01:24:53.500 --> 01:24:56.420
your crews about the reality of this without

01:24:56.420 --> 01:25:00.760
feeling weak. And there's so much strength in

01:25:00.760 --> 01:25:03.439
people that are honest and vulnerable. In my

01:25:03.439 --> 01:25:06.020
opinion, I see the vulnerability of someone not

01:25:06.020 --> 01:25:08.340
as a weakness, but as a great strength of self,

01:25:08.479 --> 01:25:11.199
of being able to rely on their crews in a way

01:25:11.199 --> 01:25:13.479
where just because they're in the front seat

01:25:13.479 --> 01:25:17.560
doesn't mean they can't make mistakes. That true

01:25:17.560 --> 01:25:20.500
honesty. And thankfully, I was given that time.

01:25:22.560 --> 01:25:27.659
Joanna gave that to me of patience, especially

01:25:27.659 --> 01:25:30.819
patience, especially when you want to move so

01:25:30.819 --> 01:25:35.380
forward and try to get through our incident and

01:25:35.380 --> 01:25:38.699
just try to make it better and try to make it

01:25:38.699 --> 01:25:40.859
feel better. But we still had to do the work

01:25:40.859 --> 01:25:42.920
before. Like we had to start at the beginning,

01:25:43.060 --> 01:25:46.140
not jump ahead because we did many times. And

01:25:46.140 --> 01:25:47.960
so some of the things didn't always go well,

01:25:47.979 --> 01:25:50.920
right? So we had to step back and reset many

01:25:50.920 --> 01:25:53.489
times. and learn how to listen to each other

01:25:53.489 --> 01:25:56.510
because if there's a time where things were sharp

01:25:56.510 --> 01:25:59.069
then you have to acknowledge them take that responsibility

01:25:59.069 --> 01:26:01.729
that you were bringing that call home and not

01:26:01.729 --> 01:26:05.810
just always blame the incident but blame my response

01:26:05.810 --> 01:26:08.270
to it because that was my own personal control

01:26:08.270 --> 01:26:11.189
you could actually take control of what was happening

01:26:11.189 --> 01:26:13.210
as long as you acknowledged it like you said

01:26:13.210 --> 01:26:16.010
steve with that situational awareness it's not

01:26:16.010 --> 01:26:19.329
always on the incidents it's about yourself of

01:26:19.329 --> 01:26:23.069
being personally responsible for my actions was

01:26:23.069 --> 01:26:25.010
a good start. And I think that's where we can

01:26:25.010 --> 01:26:28.949
start with many people. So two things, your vulnerability,

01:26:29.270 --> 01:26:32.529
dude, that's the antidote to shame. And I think

01:26:32.529 --> 01:26:34.909
Brene Brown talks about that. Truly, that's where

01:26:34.909 --> 01:26:37.789
it begins. But like circling right back to the

01:26:37.789 --> 01:26:40.029
sphere of influence that James, you've mentioned

01:26:40.029 --> 01:26:41.869
at the beginning of this conversation is that

01:26:42.930 --> 01:26:44.949
You know, we're railing against the machine.

01:26:45.109 --> 01:26:47.670
Like, you know, I know your frustration, brother.

01:26:47.829 --> 01:26:50.949
Like, we've been in the same fight. And Lionel's

01:26:50.949 --> 01:26:53.229
same in Winnipeg. Like, I know I've heard your

01:26:53.229 --> 01:26:55.750
struggles, right, at an organizational level.

01:26:55.890 --> 01:26:58.430
And it's like, what can we influence? And I think

01:26:58.430 --> 01:27:00.229
that's the hope that I hope to give from the

01:27:00.229 --> 01:27:03.909
rookie to the guy that's retiring is that if

01:27:03.909 --> 01:27:05.409
you're going to do everything you can to leave

01:27:05.409 --> 01:27:07.510
it, then. leave it better than you found it.

01:27:07.529 --> 01:27:10.510
It's what can you do within your circle of influence

01:27:10.510 --> 01:27:14.170
and Lionel at a crew level, man, you are a fucking

01:27:14.170 --> 01:27:16.189
mentor. You're a, you're a force to be reckoned

01:27:16.189 --> 01:27:19.409
with and you model good behavior and good leadership.

01:27:19.829 --> 01:27:22.090
And I think that at that level, you might not

01:27:22.090 --> 01:27:25.229
impact Winnipeg fire as a whole, but my God,

01:27:25.329 --> 01:27:27.710
you can be the best captain. You can be the best

01:27:27.710 --> 01:27:29.930
rookie firefighter. You can be the best mentor

01:27:29.930 --> 01:27:32.350
to a new person coming on, like take him under

01:27:32.350 --> 01:27:35.529
the wing. And James, like, like you're you're

01:27:35.529 --> 01:27:38.689
making a difference man you are but it's so frustrating

01:27:38.689 --> 01:27:40.789
we don't see that needle move that we have to

01:27:40.789 --> 01:27:44.649
refocus our own energy to go man i'm i feel depleted

01:27:44.649 --> 01:27:47.489
at times because there's i don't see things like

01:27:47.489 --> 01:27:51.149
i want to change everything on a big global level

01:27:51.149 --> 01:27:54.850
i want I want utopia. I want Steve Farina's utopia

01:27:54.850 --> 01:27:56.810
world to live in where everyone's a kind human

01:27:56.810 --> 01:27:59.430
being. We all get along. We take care of our

01:27:59.430 --> 01:28:01.850
health. We're resourced. Everyone's happy, right?

01:28:01.970 --> 01:28:04.970
But that's not our freaking reality. But what

01:28:04.970 --> 01:28:08.630
I can do is be the best version of myself, Steve

01:28:08.630 --> 01:28:12.109
Farina 2 .0, and continue to grow and heal and

01:28:12.109 --> 01:28:14.350
be the best father that I can and be the best

01:28:14.350 --> 01:28:17.149
boyfriend, husband, girlfriend, whatever it is,

01:28:17.189 --> 01:28:21.020
is be the best version of yourself and be. gracious

01:28:21.020 --> 01:28:23.819
enough to say that if you have a setback or you

01:28:23.819 --> 01:28:26.239
have a bad day, that there's tomorrow's a new

01:28:26.239 --> 01:28:28.680
day and I can try again tomorrow. And I think

01:28:28.680 --> 01:28:31.279
that's where we hold onto this hope that as much

01:28:31.279 --> 01:28:34.159
as the fucking, it's like the world is a dumpster

01:28:34.159 --> 01:28:39.300
fire right now. It seems, you know, we can, you

01:28:39.300 --> 01:28:40.859
know, put a little bit of water on it, right?

01:28:40.920 --> 01:28:43.000
We can throw that one starfish back and help

01:28:43.000 --> 01:28:45.539
one person at a time. And I think that's where

01:28:45.539 --> 01:28:48.260
we focus our energy in because we only have a

01:28:48.260 --> 01:28:52.119
finite amount of energy. and influence so that's

01:28:52.119 --> 01:28:54.220
kind of where i'm at right now in my life it's

01:28:54.220 --> 01:28:57.340
taken me a long time to get there holy shit well

01:28:57.340 --> 01:28:59.939
i think where where i think the other call to

01:28:59.939 --> 01:29:03.260
action is just again when you have kind of reframed

01:29:03.260 --> 01:29:06.520
what's most important and i uh i just shared

01:29:06.520 --> 01:29:11.159
a it was a little girl and her and her mother

01:29:11.159 --> 01:29:14.079
actually passing a wreck that her dad and his

01:29:14.079 --> 01:29:17.670
crew were working And he came up to the car and

01:29:17.670 --> 01:29:19.369
she gave him a hug through the window and everything.

01:29:20.109 --> 01:29:23.029
That is the point. It's like that is the most

01:29:23.029 --> 01:29:25.869
important thing. The most important. I traveled

01:29:25.869 --> 01:29:28.869
to the West Coast and back to the East Coast

01:29:28.869 --> 01:29:32.050
for my family. I left arguably one of the best

01:29:32.050 --> 01:29:34.130
fire departments in the country as a tillerman,

01:29:34.229 --> 01:29:37.090
ultimately going to be a paramedic. My dream

01:29:37.090 --> 01:29:40.170
job, burning all the time, you know, great first

01:29:40.170 --> 01:29:43.289
due, incredible crew because my son was more

01:29:43.289 --> 01:29:46.020
important. So I've walked the walk when it comes

01:29:46.020 --> 01:29:48.079
to that. I even transitioned out the fire service

01:29:48.079 --> 01:29:52.760
ultimately to, you know, I just saw Lionel's

01:29:52.760 --> 01:29:55.819
message. We will carry on while you go pee for

01:29:55.819 --> 01:30:01.100
a second. You'll find me. Off you go. So, but

01:30:01.100 --> 01:30:05.699
the point is, if we're actually going to change

01:30:05.699 --> 01:30:07.560
some of the things that need to be changed, we

01:30:07.560 --> 01:30:09.739
have to band together. Like I always use the

01:30:09.739 --> 01:30:13.340
example, if no one had spoken up, children would

01:30:13.340 --> 01:30:15.699
still be working in factories and cleaning chimneys.

01:30:16.680 --> 01:30:20.119
If one man had showed up to the march, Martin

01:30:20.119 --> 01:30:22.319
Luther King's speech wouldn't have really resonated

01:30:22.319 --> 01:30:25.039
very deeply, but a million of them showed up.

01:30:25.420 --> 01:30:29.140
When it matters, like you said, you can take

01:30:29.140 --> 01:30:30.899
the ownership and not bring the cause home, but

01:30:30.899 --> 01:30:33.500
most importantly, you can band together and,

01:30:33.539 --> 01:30:36.260
for example, ask the question, why is it that

01:30:36.260 --> 01:30:38.000
the people in these government buildings and

01:30:38.000 --> 01:30:40.770
chief's offices work 40 hours? And they're telling

01:30:40.770 --> 01:30:44.229
us that we have to work 56 or 80 with mandatory

01:30:44.229 --> 01:30:46.630
overtime. Just ask yourself that question. Justify

01:30:46.630 --> 01:30:48.729
it. I put the challenge to people. If anyone

01:30:48.729 --> 01:30:50.949
can convince me why that's fair and why that

01:30:50.949 --> 01:30:53.270
makes sense, the chief doesn't save any lives.

01:30:54.270 --> 01:30:56.430
He doesn't have a defibrillator. He doesn't have

01:30:56.430 --> 01:30:59.609
an engine or a chainsaw or, you know, jaws of

01:30:59.609 --> 01:31:03.409
life. He has a pen. And he goes home after 40

01:31:03.409 --> 01:31:07.880
hours. but you have to work 56. So why is it

01:31:07.880 --> 01:31:10.079
that your family don't deserve to have you home

01:31:10.079 --> 01:31:13.119
when the guy at Starbucks goes home at five or

01:31:13.119 --> 01:31:15.319
eight or nine or whatever it is? This is the

01:31:15.319 --> 01:31:19.140
fundamental question. So taking ownership, making

01:31:19.140 --> 01:31:21.600
sure when you are at home that you have good

01:31:21.600 --> 01:31:24.279
sleep hygiene, use new calm between your shifts

01:31:24.279 --> 01:31:26.420
to punctuate your shifts and down -regulate before

01:31:26.420 --> 01:31:29.960
you go home. But fight for the very thing that's

01:31:29.960 --> 01:31:32.319
also going to get you home. When we understand

01:31:32.319 --> 01:31:34.539
that sleep deprivation is a known carcinogen,

01:31:34.640 --> 01:31:37.279
when it's directly related to mental ill health,

01:31:37.460 --> 01:31:40.960
addiction, suicide, when it's directly related

01:31:40.960 --> 01:31:45.300
to testosterone depletion, weight gain, all these

01:31:45.300 --> 01:31:48.159
things, heart disease. If we're not fighting

01:31:48.159 --> 01:31:50.479
against the one common denominator of all the

01:31:50.479 --> 01:31:54.119
diseases, then why not? And so this is the other

01:31:54.119 --> 01:31:56.140
thing is, like I said, your sphere of action

01:31:56.140 --> 01:31:58.199
is to go around that firehouse table and say,

01:31:58.300 --> 01:32:01.800
hey, why do we work that way? And when people

01:32:01.800 --> 01:32:04.659
realize that it makes no sense, you get together

01:32:04.659 --> 01:32:06.899
with the other stations in your shift. And then

01:32:06.899 --> 01:32:09.000
all the three shifts or four shifts or three

01:32:09.000 --> 01:32:12.159
shifts in this example come together. And now

01:32:12.159 --> 01:32:15.819
as a unified workforce, you go to your people

01:32:15.819 --> 01:32:19.100
and you say, what are we doing? Like in Florida,

01:32:19.199 --> 01:32:22.640
seven departments went to 2472 last year. If

01:32:22.640 --> 01:32:25.659
they can do it, why can't we do it? We're understaffed.

01:32:26.029 --> 01:32:28.949
We're overworked. We're bleeding over time. We're

01:32:28.949 --> 01:32:31.550
losing money and lack of retention. The workman's

01:32:31.550 --> 01:32:33.869
clump claims are through the roof. We've got

01:32:33.869 --> 01:32:37.029
line of duty death payments. We've got these

01:32:37.029 --> 01:32:39.550
accidents that are causing lawsuits. There are

01:32:39.550 --> 01:32:42.090
tens of millions of dollars flowing downstream.

01:32:42.609 --> 01:32:44.949
Why are we not taking it and investing in our

01:32:44.949 --> 01:32:48.010
people? So that's my call to action in that sphere

01:32:48.010 --> 01:32:50.310
to influence is that every single firefighter,

01:32:50.310 --> 01:32:54.500
engineer, lieutenant, captain, BC. If you all

01:32:54.500 --> 01:32:57.479
get together and ask the same questions and basically

01:32:57.479 --> 01:33:00.000
metaphorically be one of those men at the Million

01:33:00.000 --> 01:33:04.020
Man March, you will make a change. But if you

01:33:04.020 --> 01:33:05.659
shrug your shoulders and go, oh, they'll never

01:33:05.659 --> 01:33:09.760
go for it, then you reap what you sow. Yeah.

01:33:10.420 --> 01:33:13.579
Yeah, for sure, man. It's a team sport. You have

01:33:13.579 --> 01:33:15.460
to do it together. You can't do it in an isolated

01:33:15.460 --> 01:33:18.779
way. But you need champions and leaders to really

01:33:18.779 --> 01:33:21.260
pick up the torch, right? But you also... You

01:33:21.260 --> 01:33:23.479
need the support of your people underneath as

01:33:23.479 --> 01:33:26.500
well. Everyone has to be on the same page in

01:33:26.500 --> 01:33:28.420
order to make change, for sure. Well, Lionel's

01:33:28.420 --> 01:33:34.880
doing renovations in his place too. Is Joanna

01:33:34.880 --> 01:33:36.680
like taking down the kitchen or what's going

01:33:36.680 --> 01:33:43.359
on in there? Mama's getting a bagel. All right.

01:33:43.380 --> 01:33:46.380
Well, before we wrap up, are there any other

01:33:46.380 --> 01:33:48.439
areas that you want to kind of explore? We've

01:33:48.439 --> 01:33:50.380
hit quite a few topics in this kind of over...

01:33:50.600 --> 01:33:52.779
overarching conversation. It's certainly obviously

01:33:52.779 --> 01:33:55.920
been about calls to action seems to be the theme.

01:33:56.140 --> 01:33:58.039
Are there any other things you want to impart

01:33:58.039 --> 01:34:04.300
before we wrap this up? Not, not, not just talking

01:34:04.300 --> 01:34:06.760
about problems that we have, but I'd like to,

01:34:06.760 --> 01:34:09.479
that we, there are solutions and hit some of

01:34:09.479 --> 01:34:11.319
those solutions maybe out there. They're consistent.

01:34:11.500 --> 01:34:14.899
Like one thing I would bring up is what Don Abbott

01:34:14.899 --> 01:34:16.939
found with project media. There's consistent

01:34:16.939 --> 01:34:19.579
things happen. It doesn't matter where you are

01:34:19.579 --> 01:34:21.600
and that you're so different, you're making these

01:34:21.600 --> 01:34:26.460
consistent statements. Like there are 16 statements

01:34:26.460 --> 01:34:30.020
that Don Abbott talks about that everyone is

01:34:30.020 --> 01:34:33.020
saying when a May Day is about to occur or happening.

01:34:33.520 --> 01:34:36.539
And so what are those things that are consistently

01:34:36.539 --> 01:34:40.979
happening everywhere from East Coast, West Coast,

01:34:41.140 --> 01:34:43.819
up North here to the South that are consistently

01:34:43.819 --> 01:34:48.800
happening that we can just streamline? Like they

01:34:48.800 --> 01:34:51.479
talk about communication in the fire service

01:34:51.479 --> 01:34:54.600
is one of the most challenging because everyone

01:34:54.600 --> 01:34:58.699
has their own term. Why is that? Because we know

01:34:58.699 --> 01:35:00.340
all these things are consistently happening.

01:35:00.399 --> 01:35:02.619
We have suicides. We have depression, anxiety.

01:35:02.819 --> 01:35:05.539
We have firefighters that are leaving the service

01:35:05.539 --> 01:35:10.060
because of the trauma we see. So why do we always

01:35:10.060 --> 01:35:14.539
have to have it our own way? Why do we need such

01:35:14.539 --> 01:35:19.100
a unique? program for our own department where

01:35:19.100 --> 01:35:21.060
we know it's happening the same across North

01:35:21.060 --> 01:35:24.079
America. You know what I mean? So what if we

01:35:24.079 --> 01:35:27.859
created that checklist to look at consistency

01:35:27.859 --> 01:35:30.140
that we can send out across North America, use

01:35:30.140 --> 01:35:34.460
one resource instead of our own individual ones

01:35:34.460 --> 01:35:37.220
that can send it out there, that can streamline

01:35:37.220 --> 01:35:39.579
some of the issues we're having and start creating

01:35:39.579 --> 01:35:45.439
that for that we create some consistency. You

01:35:45.439 --> 01:35:48.020
know what I mean? So why can't we do that? Why

01:35:48.020 --> 01:35:50.159
does it have to be so unique to our individual

01:35:50.159 --> 01:35:53.180
departments that we can't learn from someone

01:35:53.180 --> 01:35:57.939
else? But then we go back to Eagle, right? I've

01:35:57.939 --> 01:36:01.020
always made the observation that everyone copies

01:36:01.020 --> 01:36:04.300
the Northeast when it comes to hose lays and,

01:36:04.340 --> 01:36:08.100
you know, tools for forcible entry. But everyone

01:36:08.100 --> 01:36:10.560
seems to turn their head to the 42 -hour work

01:36:10.560 --> 01:36:13.229
week that most of the Northeast works. So, again,

01:36:13.350 --> 01:36:15.210
I agree with you. And I know I always hop on

01:36:15.210 --> 01:36:17.289
about this, but it's just such insanity that

01:36:17.289 --> 01:36:20.310
this part is so broken. But it's exactly that.

01:36:21.050 --> 01:36:23.970
Most professions have a standardized work week.

01:36:24.130 --> 01:36:26.310
What do we have? Oh, we'll make it up as we go

01:36:26.310 --> 01:36:29.670
along. Every single city and county was so siloed.

01:36:29.670 --> 01:36:32.949
So I agree. Find the places where things are

01:36:32.949 --> 01:36:35.310
working really well for each one of these little

01:36:35.310 --> 01:36:38.640
pieces of the puzzle. And ask them, South Metro,

01:36:38.880 --> 01:36:41.859
wherever it is, what are you doing? What's working?

01:36:42.039 --> 01:36:44.420
What's not working? Oh, it's not working? Well,

01:36:44.439 --> 01:36:46.239
let me show you what we're doing here. That might

01:36:46.239 --> 01:36:50.699
work for you. But again, that ego, you've got

01:36:50.699 --> 01:36:52.939
to have the humility to go to the places and

01:36:52.939 --> 01:36:55.840
say, how are you doing that? Norway, tell me

01:36:55.840 --> 01:36:57.739
more about your prison system where you've got

01:36:57.739 --> 01:37:00.279
the lowest recidivism in the world. Portugal,

01:37:00.579 --> 01:37:02.560
talk to me about decriminalization that reversed

01:37:02.560 --> 01:37:04.760
the opioid crisis and made you the lowest now.

01:37:05.340 --> 01:37:07.359
You know, Finland, we keep hearing you're number

01:37:07.359 --> 01:37:09.439
one in education. What are you doing? It must

01:37:09.439 --> 01:37:11.760
be standardized testing, right? Oh, it's not?

01:37:11.899 --> 01:37:15.000
Huh. Well, then tell me. Tell me what it actually

01:37:15.000 --> 01:37:18.020
is. You know, but it's humility. If you beat

01:37:18.020 --> 01:37:19.960
your chest and say we're the greatest country

01:37:19.960 --> 01:37:23.319
department, whatever, then of course you're not

01:37:23.319 --> 01:37:25.439
going to learn. But if you have the humility

01:37:25.439 --> 01:37:27.920
to go and find people that already have the answers,

01:37:27.979 --> 01:37:30.220
you don't have to reinvent the fucking wheel.

01:37:30.399 --> 01:37:33.279
You just have to drop your ego and learn from

01:37:33.279 --> 01:37:37.180
someone who's already figured it out. Yeah, so

01:37:37.180 --> 01:37:39.539
then I think we need to start getting out this

01:37:39.539 --> 01:37:43.720
message to those conferences, not just the firefighter

01:37:43.720 --> 01:37:47.260
ones. We maybe need to bump up and go to those

01:37:47.260 --> 01:37:50.300
chiefs conferences and let them know what we're

01:37:50.300 --> 01:37:53.250
going to back them up. but here's the program

01:37:53.250 --> 01:37:55.390
and we support you with it instead of always

01:37:55.390 --> 01:37:59.130
us versus them, right? So maybe we need to branch

01:37:59.130 --> 01:38:02.109
out. Maybe we need to stop just hitting it from

01:38:02.109 --> 01:38:04.210
one angle. Maybe we need to look at ourselves

01:38:04.210 --> 01:38:06.890
and say, okay, what are we not doing? What are

01:38:06.890 --> 01:38:09.289
we not talking about with our chief officers

01:38:09.289 --> 01:38:13.470
or cities, right, to the mayor or the politicians

01:38:13.470 --> 01:38:16.010
that support us or that say they support us?

01:38:16.670 --> 01:38:19.539
Are we hitting all the angles that we can? And

01:38:19.539 --> 01:38:21.180
what can we do a little bit better, not just

01:38:21.180 --> 01:38:26.100
blame it on the Chiefs? Yeah. I say in closing,

01:38:26.340 --> 01:38:31.220
there's a price of admission coming into our

01:38:31.220 --> 01:38:35.539
world. And it's very high. But I think all of

01:38:35.539 --> 01:38:38.380
our efforts are, you know, you have this amazing

01:38:38.380 --> 01:38:41.640
library of resources that you've created, James.

01:38:41.779 --> 01:38:44.060
And I think to me, it's about resources and knowing

01:38:44.060 --> 01:38:46.810
where to look for them. And so it's this upstream

01:38:46.810 --> 01:38:49.609
approach that you talk of, of getting a health

01:38:49.609 --> 01:38:51.630
ahead of like getting a good shift schedule,

01:38:51.729 --> 01:38:54.949
taking care of yourself, peer support, good mental

01:38:54.949 --> 01:38:56.670
health professionals that understand our culture.

01:38:56.689 --> 01:38:59.229
Like all of those things in place is that this

01:38:59.229 --> 01:39:02.310
is truly what's going to fix this issue is like

01:39:02.310 --> 01:39:05.770
we can become overwhelmed with the problem. But

01:39:05.770 --> 01:39:07.649
I always say like, how do you eat an elephant?

01:39:07.729 --> 01:39:10.529
Like one bite at a time. and my sister -in -law

01:39:10.529 --> 01:39:12.029
hates that because she loves elephants but i

01:39:12.029 --> 01:39:14.590
don't like eat the biggest hamburger in the world

01:39:14.590 --> 01:39:16.310
i don't care what it is but how do you do that

01:39:16.310 --> 01:39:18.550
it's like little bite -sized pieces and you attack

01:39:18.550 --> 01:39:21.430
this by knowing what resources you have and if

01:39:21.430 --> 01:39:23.010
you don't have the resources you create them

01:39:23.010 --> 01:39:25.350
like in florida you got redline rescue right

01:39:25.350 --> 01:39:28.050
mental health professionals that are culturally

01:39:28.050 --> 01:39:30.250
competent you've got a peer network that you

01:39:30.250 --> 01:39:32.329
can lean into you know you've got there's resources

01:39:32.329 --> 01:39:34.350
there in canada we've got first responder health

01:39:34.350 --> 01:39:38.029
warrior health BC First Responder mental health

01:39:38.029 --> 01:39:40.430
page. You want a gap analysis? Boom, we got it.

01:39:40.529 --> 01:39:43.369
You want a business case? We've got that. You

01:39:43.369 --> 01:39:46.130
want to do a family night? We've got those resources.

01:39:46.590 --> 01:39:48.989
Retirees, like having those hubs of resources

01:39:48.989 --> 01:39:51.750
and like your podcasts are, it's a resource,

01:39:51.930 --> 01:39:54.149
right? Like knowing where to look, but you have

01:39:54.149 --> 01:39:58.729
to have the humility and curiosity to look at

01:39:58.729 --> 01:40:01.350
yourself as a human being, as your organization

01:40:01.350 --> 01:40:04.189
and really having a desire to make a change.

01:40:04.670 --> 01:40:07.109
i think that's what the bottom line is is let's

01:40:07.109 --> 01:40:09.109
stop looking over the waterfall and catching

01:40:09.109 --> 01:40:11.949
people like it's useless to throw them a life

01:40:11.949 --> 01:40:14.109
preserver when they're down over there we want

01:40:14.109 --> 01:40:16.130
to get them way upstream and that's where we

01:40:16.130 --> 01:40:18.489
have to focus our energy in and our money is

01:40:18.489 --> 01:40:21.750
upstream better shifts patterns no force over

01:40:21.750 --> 01:40:25.069
time and and resourcing your biggest asset which

01:40:25.069 --> 01:40:27.890
is the human beings behind all of this truly

01:40:27.890 --> 01:40:31.109
so we'll all be better for it man our communities

01:40:31.109 --> 01:40:34.300
our families Like everything. We show up healthy,

01:40:34.420 --> 01:40:38.260
it makes such an impact. So from recruitment

01:40:38.260 --> 01:40:41.800
to retirement. There's a Desmond Tutu quote,

01:40:41.939 --> 01:40:45.060
I believe, that I absolutely love. And he's like,

01:40:45.159 --> 01:40:48.039
we need to stop trying to pull bodies out the

01:40:48.039 --> 01:40:50.199
river and go upstream and see who's throwing

01:40:50.199 --> 01:40:53.140
them in the first place. That sums it up. That's

01:40:53.140 --> 01:40:56.140
exactly what we need to do. Fucking rights, man.

01:40:56.840 --> 01:41:00.579
Yeah. So like you said, Steve, about eating an

01:41:00.579 --> 01:41:03.720
elephant one bite at a time, I'm understanding

01:41:03.720 --> 01:41:07.420
you don't have to eat the whole elephant, right?

01:41:07.500 --> 01:41:10.239
Everyone has a piece in this. And I believe I

01:41:10.239 --> 01:41:12.119
have a piece and I've acknowledged the fact that

01:41:12.119 --> 01:41:15.100
I can't do it all myself. And building that team,

01:41:15.180 --> 01:41:18.779
that team may not be the people you always get

01:41:18.779 --> 01:41:20.909
to choose. It might be that outlier. right that

01:41:20.909 --> 01:41:23.689
you need to include so how can we do that a little

01:41:23.689 --> 01:41:25.689
bit better as things look at those specialists

01:41:25.689 --> 01:41:29.189
that can assist in the team right so how can

01:41:29.189 --> 01:41:31.569
we go and but we also have to have an end result

01:41:31.569 --> 01:41:34.909
we have to know where we want to head if you

01:41:34.909 --> 01:41:36.550
don't have that and that's what i love about

01:41:36.550 --> 01:41:42.529
your your bc pffa website it's accessible right

01:41:42.529 --> 01:41:45.329
to all levels of our departments not just the

01:41:45.329 --> 01:41:47.569
firefighters not just union members but the chief

01:41:47.569 --> 01:41:49.930
officers too which we're trying to share with

01:41:49.930 --> 01:41:53.020
them more And if we can take that ownership of

01:41:53.020 --> 01:41:55.779
what our part is and acknowledge the fact that

01:41:55.779 --> 01:41:58.600
we don't know it all, then we start educating.

01:41:58.739 --> 01:42:01.760
Like we try to pass on James's website as much

01:42:01.760 --> 01:42:04.520
as we can and then educating them on like we

01:42:04.520 --> 01:42:08.020
did. I was in Colorado last week. I was in California

01:42:08.020 --> 01:42:11.600
the week before. And having all those people

01:42:11.600 --> 01:42:20.659
not knowing where to go, being a voice of. reason

01:42:20.659 --> 01:42:23.460
sometimes and then also being the student i think

01:42:23.460 --> 01:42:24.960
is one of the things that we can acknowledge

01:42:24.960 --> 01:42:28.579
too that i wish i knew more right and and thankful

01:42:28.579 --> 01:42:32.420
thankful for james and steve as well that we

01:42:32.420 --> 01:42:35.239
can learn bump off each other once in a while

01:42:35.239 --> 01:42:39.020
like to take that knee was so important but also

01:42:39.020 --> 01:42:41.140
to be the person that can assist that person

01:42:41.140 --> 01:42:43.279
up we have to see what where are we right now

01:42:43.279 --> 01:42:47.000
acknowledge it and then uh push forward because

01:42:47.479 --> 01:42:50.319
If I don't show up for work as the captain that

01:42:50.319 --> 01:42:54.720
the crew needs, then whose fault is it? Right?

01:42:57.460 --> 01:43:00.279
Beautiful. Well, for people listening, if they

01:43:00.279 --> 01:43:02.500
want to reach out to you, Lionel, learn about

01:43:02.500 --> 01:43:04.359
all the projects that you're a part of that we

01:43:04.359 --> 01:43:06.279
discussed at the beginning, where are the best

01:43:06.279 --> 01:43:11.500
places online? I'm on social media a little bit

01:43:11.500 --> 01:43:15.720
with Facebook and Instagram under Lionel Crowther.

01:43:16.270 --> 01:43:20.729
I believe there's only one, but mostly those

01:43:20.729 --> 01:43:24.590
two. I don't really dabble in all the other ones

01:43:24.590 --> 01:43:26.130
as much, but maybe a little bit of LinkedIn,

01:43:26.289 --> 01:43:29.430
but I can pass that off onto your webpage as

01:43:29.430 --> 01:43:32.050
well. I'll make sure I pass on the proper ones

01:43:32.050 --> 01:43:34.770
because I really do love hearing from other people

01:43:34.770 --> 01:43:37.590
and their perspectives. Like I mentioned last

01:43:37.590 --> 01:43:39.850
week, we had our firefighter burn survivor retreat,

01:43:40.109 --> 01:43:42.550
probably one of the most inspirational weeks

01:43:42.550 --> 01:43:47.079
I could ever be a part of. I love it, especially

01:43:47.079 --> 01:43:49.119
if we have people out there that we don't know

01:43:49.119 --> 01:43:51.500
yet. There's some firefighter burn survivors

01:43:51.500 --> 01:43:56.640
that feel alone. And I'd love to hear from them

01:43:56.640 --> 01:43:58.920
if they haven't had anyone reach out to them

01:43:58.920 --> 01:44:01.659
yet or found our organization from the D .C.

01:44:01.720 --> 01:44:05.319
Burn Foundation of how we help burn survivors

01:44:05.319 --> 01:44:09.039
and firefighters. Please reach out because I

01:44:09.039 --> 01:44:12.020
hope that's one thing that we can find. And same

01:44:12.020 --> 01:44:15.159
with this mental health conversation. One of

01:44:15.159 --> 01:44:19.640
the things I think that I find the most profound

01:44:19.640 --> 01:44:23.520
is that people still feel alone in the most technologically

01:44:23.520 --> 01:44:27.260
advanced era we've ever had. I don't want that.

01:44:27.420 --> 01:44:29.479
And I think that that's the one thing I think

01:44:29.479 --> 01:44:32.140
we can do a little bit better is finding those

01:44:32.140 --> 01:44:36.020
people and giving them the assistance that they

01:44:36.020 --> 01:44:38.840
need if it's just a voice or someone to sit and

01:44:38.840 --> 01:44:40.880
talk with. That's one of the biggest things.

01:44:40.979 --> 01:44:44.199
So I hope we can hear more. for more people that

01:44:44.199 --> 01:44:48.560
are alone and help them get into these groups

01:44:48.560 --> 01:44:51.479
that they need to be. Absolutely. Well, Steve,

01:44:51.739 --> 01:44:53.680
same question to you. If you want to find you

01:44:53.680 --> 01:44:56.239
online or the resources that you mentioned before.

01:44:58.399 --> 01:45:01.560
I'm on LinkedIn and you can go to our website,

01:45:01.760 --> 01:45:05.640
bcpffa .org that Lionel mentioned there. I'm

01:45:05.640 --> 01:45:07.840
the executive vice president for that association

01:45:07.840 --> 01:45:11.029
until June. And, you know, through you, James,

01:45:11.109 --> 01:45:12.970
if you want to pass on anyone's contact info,

01:45:13.130 --> 01:45:17.689
I'm on all the socials as well. And yeah, just

01:45:17.689 --> 01:45:21.010
feel free to reach out. We've got the BC Firefighter

01:45:21.010 --> 01:45:26.590
Resiliency Program. That website is bcfirefightersresiliencyprogram

01:45:26.590 --> 01:45:31.970
.com, I think. It's a Gmail or it's a G, whatever,

01:45:32.189 --> 01:45:35.310
Google account. So my contact info is on there.

01:45:36.199 --> 01:45:38.000
So we can reach out through that as well. And

01:45:38.000 --> 01:45:40.220
then I'll pass on some of the other resources

01:45:40.220 --> 01:45:42.180
and web links that I talked about. The BC First

01:45:42.180 --> 01:45:46.819
Responder Mental Health website is a great depository

01:45:46.819 --> 01:45:49.060
of information, like just a wealth of videos

01:45:49.060 --> 01:45:51.859
and templates that people can follow, setting

01:45:51.859 --> 01:45:54.180
up your peer team, et cetera. There's a bunch

01:45:54.180 --> 01:45:55.640
of resources that I'll pass along to you too.

01:45:55.859 --> 01:45:58.399
Beautiful. Well, I want to say thank you so much.

01:45:58.500 --> 01:46:01.239
It's been such an amazing conversation to, you

01:46:01.239 --> 01:46:04.060
know, unique, powerful lenses that we have brought

01:46:04.060 --> 01:46:07.020
into this discussion today. And hopefully it

01:46:07.020 --> 01:46:09.100
will sow some seeds. We haven't been talking

01:46:09.100 --> 01:46:11.479
about, you know, technicalities today. It's a

01:46:11.479 --> 01:46:14.479
lot more of the concepts. And again, pushing

01:46:14.479 --> 01:46:17.180
that hope, because I think that there absolutely

01:46:17.180 --> 01:46:19.960
is change in our future. And I've always said

01:46:19.960 --> 01:46:22.369
this, this crisis that we're in now. if you're

01:46:22.369 --> 01:46:24.689
a glass half full kind of guy like i am i might

01:46:24.689 --> 01:46:27.680
throw that glass at people sometimes but um is

01:46:27.680 --> 01:46:30.020
a perfect opportunity for us to finally change

01:46:30.020 --> 01:46:33.079
because it's irrefutable now so these resources

01:46:33.079 --> 01:46:35.779
that we talked about you know the all the incredible

01:46:35.779 --> 01:46:37.819
things that you guys are doing and and you know

01:46:37.819 --> 01:46:40.119
the things and all the other guests on the podcast

01:46:40.119 --> 01:46:43.319
now hopefully people will go okay we can do it

01:46:43.319 --> 01:46:45.319
but the element of hope that's been inserted

01:46:45.319 --> 01:46:47.979
today i think is phenomenal so i want to thank

01:46:47.979 --> 01:46:50.319
you both so so much for being so generous with

01:46:50.319 --> 01:46:51.920
your time and coming on the behind the shield

01:46:51.920 --> 01:46:54.979
podcast Well, thank you, James, man, for the

01:46:54.979 --> 01:46:57.899
work you've done. It's propelled me further.

01:46:58.680 --> 01:47:01.600
And I know you always have our back. So thank

01:47:01.600 --> 01:47:03.420
you for the work you do because it's amazing.

01:47:04.159 --> 01:47:05.539
Humble, brother. Humble.