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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you

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think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome

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to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,

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my name is James Gearing and this week it is

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my absolute honor to welcome on the show firefighter

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and Air National Guardsman Tony Marquez. Now

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in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics

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from his journey into the fire service, the parallel

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path into the military, notable calls, and then

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in my opinion, the most powerful part of his

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story, his mental health journey. For people

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who listen to this podcast a lot, you've probably

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heard Boulder Crest and the Struggle Well program

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mentioned many times. Well, Tony takes a deep

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dive into that program, his experience through

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Warrior Path, which is the military arm of that,

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and details the incredible healing power he found

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through those programs. Now, before we get to

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this incredible conversation, as I say every

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week, please just take a moment, go to whichever

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app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show.

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Leave feedback and leave a rating. Every single

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five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,

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therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library of well over 1 ,000

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episodes now. So all I ask in return is that

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you help share these incredible men and women's

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stories so I can get them to every single person

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on planet Earth who needs to hear them. And one

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more note, I was sick as a dog with a cold when

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I did this interview, so I apologize for my voice.

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That being said, I introduce to you, Tony Marquez.

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Enjoy. Well, Tony, I want to start by saying

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thank you so, so much for taking the time and

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coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.

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Oh, man, it's a pleasure. It's wild to be here.

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We were just discussing before we got on here

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that I reached out to you, I don't know, five,

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six years ago, just random comments on Instagram.

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And I was like, oh, there's no way this guy's

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going to reply. And then we started chatting

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it up for a little bit, lost touch, and got in

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touch again. And here we are. Pretty cool. yeah

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no it's funny because people you know there's

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this almost perception i think when you have

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a platform that you're now some different kind

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of person and you're not you know i mean you're

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just a firefighter that just happened to plug

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a microphone into a computer that's it so so

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it's funny when uh you know when you hear that

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but i think you know sadly obviously when people

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get get very very famous and yeah this is it's

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so much like i see it with some of the you know

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the actors i've had on the show i mean you just

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got to be so careful because you don't want to

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overwhelm them but uh no for any any police officer

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or firefighter behind a microphone i don't think

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any of us have that level of level of fame so

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we should be answering all the questions yeah

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well so many trolls out there right like oh what's

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this guy's angle what's gonna happen if i respond

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but that was very cool and we had like really

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good chats for a while i mean i don't know what

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happened It's very cool. Yeah, no, and I think

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that's the problem. The old page, there was like

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200 ,000 people on there. And this is the problem

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is that, yes, from one perspective, okay, that's

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a larger audience disseminate information, but

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you also lose the core people that are actually

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there to make changes, to interact, you know

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what I mean? So I think that's the sad thing

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about getting more of a platform is you lose

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the most valuable people kind of get lost in

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the white noise there. Sure. Well, here we are.

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Very cool. Exactly. All right. So you say here

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we are. Where on planet Earth are we finding

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you today? I'm in Tucson, Arizona right now.

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Beautiful. Well, I would love to start at the

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very beginning of your journey. So tell me where

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you were born and tell me a little bit about

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your family dynamic, what your parents did, how

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many siblings. All righty. So I was born in Harvey,

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Illinois. It's a suburb just south of Chicago.

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Not the most fun place to grow up in, but I'm

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sure we'll get into that later. My mom was a

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stay -at -home mom. She worked in a nursing home,

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and she got injured there, messed up her back

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pretty good. So she's on disability and staying

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at home. And my dad, he was in the Navy for a

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couple years, kind of during Vietnam era. I think

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he did four, and then he was a firefighter for

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Harvey, Illinois. So he did 20 years. He had

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a heart attack. was forced to retire and then

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four brothers uh i'd never call them my half

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brothers but since we're getting into it um two

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for my mom's previous marriage two for my dad's

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previous marriage and all older than me so i

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was kind of the young one in the family and uh

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unfortunately my brother david passed away when

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he was around 22 and i think i was 12 from cancer

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so there's that That's the family dynamics. My

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dad passed away in 2019. My mom actually lives

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with us here in Arizona along with my father

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-in -law. Yeah, so that's the family dynamics.

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Yeah, it's so sad because you hear a lot of people

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that come on the show and their parents were

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first responders and more often than not, it's

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a short lifespan from that generation too. Yeah,

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his kind of sucked. I mean, he had the heart

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attack and he was still good to go. i think he

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was 79 when he passed away and just uh i still

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don't know all the details but from my understanding

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is uh just a mix up of medications and too many

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blood thinners and it bled out in his brain because

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all the crap that he was on from he was 79 pushing

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80 so he he was still fighting strong but it

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went down fast and that's crazy i know we'll

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get into it but that's kind of part of the reason

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i ended up uh taking a break from the fire service

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and going into uh full -time active duty with

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the uh Air National Guard because when uh when

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he did pass away he lived in the district that

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I work work in so I called 911 and you know the

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guys didn't know was my dad and they rolled in

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and they looked at me shocked and I was like

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yeah it's here so I got to watch my friends work

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my dad and they did what they could do and he

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ended up dying in the hospital but When I went

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back to the firehouse, I worked in a community

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where there's older people. So every time I'd

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go to a call and see someone laying in the bed,

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all I saw was my dad. I was like, I need a break.

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And I didn't realize in the moment that's what

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it was. But through the work that I've done,

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that's what came to fruition. Yeah. I mean, this

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is the thing you hear with the volunteer fire

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service. More often than not, they're working

00:10:08.970 --> 00:10:11.610
their colleagues, their friends, their kids they

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taught, or school classmates in high school.

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This is who they're running on. And we don't

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think about that, you know, in the career side

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is, you know, not many of us really live and

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work in the same place these days. A lot of us

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can't afford to. But yeah, having that proximity

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and working on your loved ones. I mean, that's

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another layer of trauma in itself. Yeah, absolutely.

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So, yeah, I guess real quick, if you wanted to

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talk the path to service, how I got in the military,

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is that the kind of way you wanted to go? Well,

00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:45.100
let's go back. You made the comment about the

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rough upbringing in Harvey. So expand on that.

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It's funny because I used to hear a lot of jokes

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of like, hey, if there's criminals running from

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Chicago, they're going to Harvey. I've heard

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that before. And then I actually ran into a cop

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pretty recently because a lot of people from

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Chicago retired here. They're like, oh, crap,

00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:03.279
you're from Harvey. I was like, yeah. I was like,

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oh, OK. Yeah, I was. so because of where my dad

00:11:07.730 --> 00:11:09.429
worked he worked for the harvey fire department

00:11:09.429 --> 00:11:12.129
and the city mandated that you live where you

00:11:12.129 --> 00:11:15.769
work and so a lot of the guys didn't even want

00:11:15.769 --> 00:11:18.549
to live in harvey so some you know had didn't

00:11:18.549 --> 00:11:20.370
have they had fake addresses and lived somewhere

00:11:20.370 --> 00:11:22.570
else or they actually lived in the city so that's

00:11:22.570 --> 00:11:25.129
why we were forced to live there but yeah it

00:11:25.129 --> 00:11:29.809
was rough i mean um a lot of drugs a lot of violence

00:11:29.809 --> 00:11:33.289
a lot of gangs all the things you know when my

00:11:33.289 --> 00:11:37.330
uh i was out in the streets a lot just running

00:11:37.330 --> 00:11:39.289
around because that's just what we did in you

00:11:39.289 --> 00:11:42.649
know in that time frame riding bikes and it didn't

00:11:42.649 --> 00:11:46.830
seem very safe but in reality it wasn't so you

00:11:46.830 --> 00:11:48.649
know especially my brother passed away because

00:11:48.649 --> 00:11:51.350
he was into gangs and drug dealing unfortunately

00:11:51.350 --> 00:11:55.929
and when he passed away i actually ran into A

00:11:55.929 --> 00:11:58.129
kid that I played soccer with and ran into his

00:11:58.129 --> 00:12:00.370
older brother and his other brother was like,

00:12:00.389 --> 00:12:02.230
Oh shit, you're David's little brother. And they

00:12:02.230 --> 00:12:03.730
were wrapped up in the gang. So they kind of

00:12:03.730 --> 00:12:05.789
took me under their wing for a long time and

00:12:05.789 --> 00:12:08.690
kind of got wrapped up in that life pretty early.

00:12:09.350 --> 00:12:13.370
And it was a rough go. Talk to me about that

00:12:13.370 --> 00:12:15.710
crossroads. Cause I think this is what's so.

00:12:16.590 --> 00:12:19.210
important for people to understand. We have a

00:12:19.210 --> 00:12:21.190
lot of issues on our streets at the moment, from

00:12:21.190 --> 00:12:24.110
homelessness to sex work to gangs. And you look

00:12:24.110 --> 00:12:26.190
at other places in the world and they don't have

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it anywhere near as rampant as we do in the US.

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What was that crossroads? Because there's people

00:12:33.309 --> 00:12:35.350
that... Well, I never went in the gang. Yeah,

00:12:35.409 --> 00:12:38.470
because you probably had certain family dynamics

00:12:38.470 --> 00:12:40.629
and certain mentors in your life that steered

00:12:40.629 --> 00:12:43.269
you towards the military, the fire service, law,

00:12:43.590 --> 00:12:46.750
whatever your thing was. But those same mentors

00:12:46.750 --> 00:12:49.070
can also be in your community, the gangbangers

00:12:49.070 --> 00:12:50.830
and the drug dealers and those kind of people.

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So what was kind of missing up to that point?

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And then talk to me about that pull for a young

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boy in Illinois being pulled into that life.

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Yeah. And again, I know we'll get into it, but

00:13:04.149 --> 00:13:08.830
all these memories and me figuring this out came

00:13:08.830 --> 00:13:12.009
about through my work with therapists, doing

00:13:12.009 --> 00:13:13.610
the struggle well in the warrior path, which

00:13:13.610 --> 00:13:17.350
we'll get into later. But reflecting on it, it

00:13:17.350 --> 00:13:19.629
wasn't that my dad wasn't there or my mom wasn't

00:13:19.629 --> 00:13:22.129
there. They were older when they had me and they

00:13:22.129 --> 00:13:23.850
did their best. And I wouldn't say there was

00:13:23.850 --> 00:13:26.789
any neglect there. But the thing that happened

00:13:26.789 --> 00:13:29.210
was because my brother was involved with the

00:13:29.210 --> 00:13:32.450
gangs and the drugs, we were really close. really

00:13:32.450 --> 00:13:35.789
close growing up and he had cancer too so I remember

00:13:35.789 --> 00:13:37.490
when he was diagnosed with cancer he tried to

00:13:37.490 --> 00:13:39.110
come around and he wasn't really allowed around

00:13:39.110 --> 00:13:41.129
the house because there's people looking for

00:13:41.129 --> 00:13:42.909
him there's just a lot of danger surrounding

00:13:42.909 --> 00:13:46.149
him so when he passed away it was a Super Bowl

00:13:46.149 --> 00:13:50.450
Sunday and I remember being left at my parents

00:13:50.450 --> 00:13:52.549
friend's house and they came back and they're

00:13:52.549 --> 00:13:54.789
like hey David passed away and I never got to

00:13:54.789 --> 00:13:57.549
say goodbye there was no closure there's no closure

00:13:57.549 --> 00:14:00.389
at all and there's no closure around actually

00:14:00.389 --> 00:14:03.789
how he died like was it drug related was it overdose

00:14:03.789 --> 00:14:07.370
was it gang related was it the cancer no closure

00:14:07.370 --> 00:14:11.350
whatsoever and so and i didn't get to see him

00:14:11.350 --> 00:14:15.809
as often as i wanted so reflecting back you know

00:14:15.809 --> 00:14:18.450
running into guys that hung out with david that

00:14:18.450 --> 00:14:20.850
were good friends with dave that loved him and

00:14:20.850 --> 00:14:23.070
then me being brought under their wing like oh

00:14:23.070 --> 00:14:24.789
your david's little brother let's take care of

00:14:24.789 --> 00:14:28.009
you was my way i think you know looking back

00:14:28.009 --> 00:14:30.950
is my way to interact with my brother and be

00:14:30.950 --> 00:14:33.070
with my brother and find that connection because

00:14:33.070 --> 00:14:36.090
as much trouble as they got into and as much

00:14:36.090 --> 00:14:37.909
things as they did it was kind of weird because

00:14:37.909 --> 00:14:40.529
they still wouldn't let me get involved i was

00:14:40.529 --> 00:14:42.529
kind of like a hang around almost the whole time

00:14:42.529 --> 00:14:44.730
because i was so young i was 14 years old hanging

00:14:44.730 --> 00:14:47.990
out with 20 25 year olds going to clubs downtown

00:14:47.990 --> 00:14:52.529
going to certain bars and and parties and i was

00:14:52.529 --> 00:14:56.610
just there and i think i was desperately seeking

00:14:56.610 --> 00:14:59.440
that connection with my brother that i couldn't

00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:01.519
have and these guys were essentially just like

00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:04.659
them and trying to find some closure and just

00:15:04.659 --> 00:15:07.200
trying to fit in because it's very difficult

00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:10.379
to fit in right group as well because my dad's

00:15:10.379 --> 00:15:13.860
mexican descent my mom's white uh predominantly

00:15:13.860 --> 00:15:16.740
african -american community so depending on which

00:15:16.740 --> 00:15:19.639
block i was in i never fit in i wasn't full mexican

00:15:19.639 --> 00:15:22.139
you know i'm not african -american and and i

00:15:22.139 --> 00:15:23.580
went to a catholic grade school and i didn't

00:15:23.580 --> 00:15:25.240
fit in there because i was literally the only

00:15:25.240 --> 00:15:28.200
kid from harvey in that school so I would ask

00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:30.200
kids to come over and play, and their parents

00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:31.159
were like, oh, where do you live? I was like,

00:15:31.179 --> 00:15:32.379
Harvey. They were like, absolutely not. You can

00:15:32.379 --> 00:15:36.039
come to our house. So, yeah, I think that crossover

00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:38.159
was just much like you hear all the time, trying

00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:40.799
to find some type of connection, family, and

00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:43.000
a group to fit in with. And unfortunately, mine

00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:46.559
was a little rougher than most groups. So when

00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:48.759
you were in this age, and obviously, like you

00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:51.559
said, this other group was a lot older, what

00:15:51.559 --> 00:15:53.419
about the sports and exercise? What were you

00:15:53.419 --> 00:15:58.419
playing and doing back then? Soccer. Soccer was

00:15:58.419 --> 00:16:01.360
a big deal. In Chicago, they have this league

00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:05.039
called CLASA, Chicago Latin American Soccer Association.

00:16:05.259 --> 00:16:10.779
So all the guys that were in the mix played for

00:16:10.779 --> 00:16:15.779
this league. And if I remember correctly, all

00:16:15.779 --> 00:16:19.559
the teams were like a subset of cities in Mexico.

00:16:19.659 --> 00:16:22.240
So I played for La Piedad. So everyone from La

00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:23.919
Piedad that lived in that community played for

00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:27.500
that team. they're all all close -knit both on

00:16:27.500 --> 00:16:29.940
the soccer team and then both in the streets

00:16:29.940 --> 00:16:32.940
as well so soccer was a big deal indoor soccer

00:16:32.940 --> 00:16:35.159
outdoor soccer and then high school soccer but

00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:38.159
the indoor and the summer leagues were just that

00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:40.340
big group and those became gangs because then

00:16:40.340 --> 00:16:42.480
one team didn't like the other and there's some

00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:45.100
gnarly rivals like got into got into a lot of

00:16:45.100 --> 00:16:47.620
fights on the soccer field for whatever reason

00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:50.740
yeah i grew up in the 80s you know in england

00:16:50.740 --> 00:16:52.860
where we're watching people like stabbing each

00:16:52.860 --> 00:16:54.899
other and pushing walls on each other over a

00:16:54.899 --> 00:16:56.860
football team and it just never made any sense

00:16:56.860 --> 00:16:59.360
to me i get it on the pitch you know that's where

00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:01.919
you're actually having this competition but the

00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:04.180
fans fighting each other stabbing each other

00:17:04.180 --> 00:17:06.599
over a bunch of dudes in shorts that just never

00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:08.980
never computed me that's why i never had a team

00:17:08.980 --> 00:17:10.779
growing up because i was just like that that

00:17:10.779 --> 00:17:13.339
to me through my lens was the violence associated

00:17:13.339 --> 00:17:16.470
rather than the actual game itself Yeah, I remember

00:17:16.470 --> 00:17:17.990
watching a ref get hit in the head with a beer

00:17:17.990 --> 00:17:20.529
bottle because he made the wrong call. The game

00:17:20.529 --> 00:17:22.589
went on. It was like nothing happened. It was

00:17:22.589 --> 00:17:25.730
pretty wild. So what about career aspirations?

00:17:25.829 --> 00:17:27.569
You're surrounded, obviously, by this kind of

00:17:27.569 --> 00:17:29.569
street life that you found yourself in. Were

00:17:29.569 --> 00:17:31.809
there any career dreams that you had at that

00:17:31.809 --> 00:17:36.809
time? Oddly enough, I always wanted to be a Navy

00:17:36.809 --> 00:17:38.990
pilot and go to Annapolis because Top Gun was

00:17:38.990 --> 00:17:41.509
big at that time. My dad was in the Navy. My

00:17:41.509 --> 00:17:43.990
other brother had enlisted into the Navy, and

00:17:43.990 --> 00:17:47.869
he left. and um so that was a big thing like

00:17:47.869 --> 00:17:50.150
grade school type issue i mean high school transition

00:17:50.150 --> 00:17:53.369
is where everything changed but that was a big

00:17:53.369 --> 00:17:55.069
thing and then throughout high school i just

00:17:55.069 --> 00:17:57.910
i didn't try hard enough i could have done a

00:17:57.910 --> 00:18:00.930
lot better as i mean we all say we can do but

00:18:00.930 --> 00:18:04.769
um it was strange i didn't know what to do like

00:18:04.769 --> 00:18:06.130
my dad was like hey you should go in the fire

00:18:06.130 --> 00:18:08.789
service he didn't really push it on me but he

00:18:08.789 --> 00:18:11.390
he mentioned it quite often and then the military

00:18:11.390 --> 00:18:14.430
was always kind of there you know then you you

00:18:14.430 --> 00:18:15.970
meet you have a girlfriend you don't want to

00:18:15.970 --> 00:18:18.789
leave i got a job i didn't want to leave the

00:18:18.789 --> 00:18:22.450
the area so it's kind of in between jobs after

00:18:22.450 --> 00:18:25.549
high school and then uh my brother from my mom's

00:18:25.549 --> 00:18:27.789
side they own a company and they got me in as

00:18:27.789 --> 00:18:30.930
a union laborer and uh if you ever seen that

00:18:30.930 --> 00:18:33.289
movie um blues brothers where they're flying

00:18:33.289 --> 00:18:35.849
over the top and you got the steel mills that's

00:18:35.849 --> 00:18:37.670
kind of the area i worked yeah i worked there

00:18:37.670 --> 00:18:40.730
in east chicago indiana It's not the steel mill,

00:18:40.829 --> 00:18:43.730
but it was where they provide the coal for the

00:18:43.730 --> 00:18:46.690
steel. And so I was cleaning chutes, doing all

00:18:46.690 --> 00:18:48.269
the things, making really good money because

00:18:48.269 --> 00:18:49.950
you're a union worker in the city. So that's

00:18:49.950 --> 00:18:52.690
a good gig to have. But I'd take about an hour

00:18:52.690 --> 00:18:55.849
to hour and a half with Vaseline and Q -tips

00:18:55.849 --> 00:18:57.670
to clean all the coal out of my eyes and ears.

00:18:58.170 --> 00:19:01.210
And I just remember walking up a ramp and I couldn't

00:19:01.210 --> 00:19:02.650
breathe. I was like coughing up all this black

00:19:02.650 --> 00:19:04.589
crap. I was like, I can't do this anymore. So

00:19:04.589 --> 00:19:07.069
I go to the control room and one of the guys

00:19:07.069 --> 00:19:08.789
I knew, he was in the army. And I was like, hey,

00:19:08.829 --> 00:19:10.049
man, I was like, what do you think about the

00:19:10.049 --> 00:19:11.589
military? I was like, my brother was in Desert

00:19:11.589 --> 00:19:13.509
Storm. My dad was in Vietnam. My uncle was in

00:19:13.509 --> 00:19:15.650
Korea. My grandfather was in World War II. There's

00:19:15.650 --> 00:19:18.130
a lot of service. I was like, what do you think

00:19:18.130 --> 00:19:20.049
about it? And it's funny because he was like,

00:19:20.130 --> 00:19:22.470
well, he's like, hey, man, there's no wars going

00:19:22.470 --> 00:19:23.990
on right now. And there probably won't be any.

00:19:24.130 --> 00:19:25.990
So don't go in the Marines or Army. Go in the

00:19:25.990 --> 00:19:27.410
Navy or the Air Force. You can learn a trade.

00:19:27.509 --> 00:19:29.250
I was like, all right, Air Force sounds cool.

00:19:29.430 --> 00:19:32.630
And then win the Air Force. I mean, I think that

00:19:32.630 --> 00:19:34.390
was like a Monday. That Wednesday I enlisted

00:19:34.390 --> 00:19:37.799
and then I shipped out. And then went to tech

00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:39.519
school and did all the boot camp and all the

00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:41.500
things. And my second day of work was 9 -11 and

00:19:41.500 --> 00:19:44.579
everything changed after that. Before we progress

00:19:44.579 --> 00:19:47.640
forward, I meant to ask you this before. With

00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:50.720
the Vietnam generation, unlike the World War

00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:53.059
II and I would argue the last 20 years or so,

00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:57.700
that generation specifically was so poorly received

00:19:57.700 --> 00:19:59.480
when they came back home. And I've heard so many

00:19:59.480 --> 00:20:01.059
horror stories of people getting pissed on and

00:20:01.059 --> 00:20:03.710
spit on and all these other things. what are

00:20:03.710 --> 00:20:06.329
some if any of the stories that that you remember

00:20:06.329 --> 00:20:09.849
from your father's experience in vietnam zero

00:20:09.849 --> 00:20:13.009
he you'd always say one cool funny story that

00:20:13.009 --> 00:20:15.390
when uh before he went into country he was in

00:20:15.390 --> 00:20:18.910
japan and because uh he actually looks uh kind

00:20:18.910 --> 00:20:21.230
of asian so a lot of guys thought he was japanese

00:20:21.230 --> 00:20:25.380
and so he the japanese mafia actually took him

00:20:25.380 --> 00:20:27.559
under his wing at this one bar and like you just

00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:29.700
hang out with them and and some marines would

00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:31.059
come in and start a fight with them and they

00:20:31.059 --> 00:20:33.220
and the japanese guys would protect them because

00:20:33.220 --> 00:20:34.880
they called him uh i don't know if this is a

00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:37.039
derogatory term i don't mean it that way but

00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:39.200
he said they would call him nisi boy and i don't

00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:41.200
know what that means but that's they said they

00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:43.160
would call him and like he was like a friend

00:20:43.160 --> 00:20:45.460
of theirs he would tell me that and then he would

00:20:45.460 --> 00:20:48.220
tell me how my uncle was in the air force my

00:20:48.220 --> 00:20:51.309
dad spent more time in planes than my uncle did

00:20:51.309 --> 00:20:53.089
in the air force my uncle spent more time on

00:20:53.089 --> 00:20:56.130
ships than my dad did and that's the extent of

00:20:56.130 --> 00:20:59.009
the uh military stuff that he would talk about

00:20:59.009 --> 00:21:01.009
he wouldn't talk about it at all yeah there's

00:21:01.009 --> 00:21:03.910
a lot of them i think just bottled it in yeah

00:21:03.910 --> 00:21:06.630
but i'm talking through my mom with some of these

00:21:06.630 --> 00:21:10.130
problems that you know again stuff that i learned

00:21:10.130 --> 00:21:11.710
through warrior path and struggle well i actually

00:21:11.710 --> 00:21:13.589
had some open conversations with my mom and she

00:21:13.589 --> 00:21:16.250
brought up that my dad had some significant events

00:21:16.250 --> 00:21:18.869
happen in vietnam and and she didn't really elaborate

00:21:18.869 --> 00:21:21.130
either but i guess he went through some pretty

00:21:21.130 --> 00:21:24.069
gnarly stuff and took some lives and was in the

00:21:24.069 --> 00:21:26.230
mix but he just never talked about it and i don't

00:21:26.230 --> 00:21:27.549
know if he talked about it with my brother either

00:21:27.549 --> 00:21:30.849
i mean i just can't imagine you know whether

00:21:30.849 --> 00:21:32.690
you know you enlist or whether you were drafted

00:21:32.690 --> 00:21:35.289
to go out there fight with you know the american

00:21:35.289 --> 00:21:38.210
flag on your shoulder do the things that your

00:21:38.210 --> 00:21:40.250
country asks for you to do whether people back

00:21:40.250 --> 00:21:43.109
home agree with it or not and then you come back

00:21:43.789 --> 00:21:45.710
And, you know, that's the environment that you

00:21:45.710 --> 00:21:47.769
return. So there's no, you know, you listen to

00:21:47.769 --> 00:21:51.009
Sebastian Junger talking about the Native Americans

00:21:51.009 --> 00:21:52.609
coming back from war. There was storytelling

00:21:52.609 --> 00:21:55.230
and, you know, rituals and all these kind of

00:21:55.230 --> 00:21:57.450
things and the celebration for the warriors returning

00:21:57.450 --> 00:22:01.329
to come back to such a, you know, betrayal basically

00:22:01.329 --> 00:22:04.410
by the country on those actual men and women

00:22:04.410 --> 00:22:06.150
that were out there, regardless of the politics,

00:22:06.369 --> 00:22:09.670
how absolutely crushing that must have been for

00:22:09.670 --> 00:22:13.600
our men and women in uniform. Yeah. Absolutely.

00:22:13.600 --> 00:22:15.660
And some of my studies through the social work

00:22:15.660 --> 00:22:18.859
and other studies, they also, you know, I don't

00:22:18.859 --> 00:22:20.380
have all the details, but they talked about,

00:22:20.420 --> 00:22:22.279
again, like the World War II guys. I mean, they

00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:24.759
had two to three weeks coming back on ships and

00:22:24.759 --> 00:22:26.319
they had a lot of time together to decompress

00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:29.059
before they got home. And then Vietnam guys,

00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:32.339
I mean, they're home almost instantly. And Desert

00:22:32.339 --> 00:22:35.680
Storm and the GWAC guys, you know, one plane

00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:37.640
and you're home pretty quick with not a lot of

00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:40.539
time to decompress and you're thrusted into a

00:22:40.539 --> 00:22:42.619
whole different world that, you know. yesterday

00:22:42.619 --> 00:22:44.980
i was just getting shot at today i'm you know

00:22:44.980 --> 00:22:48.119
at the supermarket and that's a lot to deal with

00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:51.579
in such a short time it's amazing when i ask

00:22:51.579 --> 00:22:53.759
these early life questions a lot of times it's

00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:55.660
either father if it's an older guest or grandfather

00:22:55.660 --> 00:22:59.119
was a world war ii veteran and you know we've

00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:01.420
romanticized those guys you know they came back

00:23:01.420 --> 00:23:02.900
they rolled up their sleeves and they got back

00:23:02.900 --> 00:23:05.559
to work greatest generation and they were hands

00:23:05.559 --> 00:23:08.019
down the greatest generation for the courage

00:23:08.019 --> 00:23:10.500
and sacrifice they made you know fighting true

00:23:10.500 --> 00:23:14.980
true um tyranny overseas but actually when you

00:23:14.980 --> 00:23:18.039
hear the you know the children's version of how

00:23:18.039 --> 00:23:21.039
dad was they did struggle they struggled immensely

00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:24.640
but we almost you know closed the door for them

00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:26.259
to be able to talk about the struggles like usually

00:23:26.259 --> 00:23:27.779
no no don't ruin everything you're the greatest

00:23:27.779 --> 00:23:30.250
generation you took care of it And they didn't,

00:23:30.250 --> 00:23:32.210
you know, a lot of them were, you know, it was

00:23:32.210 --> 00:23:34.289
alcoholism and domestic abuse and all these other

00:23:34.289 --> 00:23:36.549
things, just like we see with our firefighters

00:23:36.549 --> 00:23:38.829
and cops and the military members more recently,

00:23:38.829 --> 00:23:41.990
like you can't go overseas and do that and then

00:23:41.990 --> 00:23:44.309
come home. And like you said, now you're, you

00:23:44.309 --> 00:23:46.569
know, working in construction and just bury the

00:23:46.569 --> 00:23:49.069
fact that, you know. you discovered Auschwitz

00:23:49.069 --> 00:23:52.109
or you had to kill a German with a rock in the

00:23:52.109 --> 00:23:55.009
middle of Holland somewhere and just bury that

00:23:55.009 --> 00:23:57.769
down and not talk about it again. So it's interesting

00:23:57.769 --> 00:24:00.849
when you hear these actual family stories that

00:24:00.849 --> 00:24:03.549
we need to give grace to that generation and

00:24:03.549 --> 00:24:05.549
understand that they did struggle and rightly

00:24:05.549 --> 00:24:09.029
so. Oh, absolutely. My mom speaks about that

00:24:09.029 --> 00:24:12.430
as well. My grandfather coming back. And certain

00:24:12.430 --> 00:24:14.390
things that happened in her childhood as well,

00:24:14.450 --> 00:24:16.130
which you can easily relate. I mean, you spent

00:24:16.130 --> 00:24:20.150
how many years in World War II? And I'd venture

00:24:20.150 --> 00:24:22.289
to say World War II is pretty rough as well,

00:24:22.349 --> 00:24:24.890
because from readings I've had and things that

00:24:24.890 --> 00:24:26.990
I've looked up is like when you're deployed,

00:24:27.230 --> 00:24:29.269
you weren't coming back until it was done. Like

00:24:29.269 --> 00:24:30.970
sometimes you have like, hey, you're gone first.

00:24:31.190 --> 00:24:33.029
You almost have like a timeline, like you're

00:24:33.029 --> 00:24:34.670
going to get here and leave here. And a lot of

00:24:34.670 --> 00:24:36.690
times that doesn't happen. But those guys and

00:24:36.690 --> 00:24:39.329
gals were like. Yeah, we'll see when it's over

00:24:39.329 --> 00:24:42.690
and could spend years out there. That's that's

00:24:42.690 --> 00:24:46.089
rough. Absolutely. Well, we stopped at 9 -11.

00:24:46.289 --> 00:24:48.529
So you're now in the Air Force. You've gone through

00:24:48.529 --> 00:24:51.329
your training. Talk to me how that day unfolded

00:24:51.329 --> 00:24:53.150
through your eyes. And then let's kind of walk

00:24:53.150 --> 00:24:56.049
through what happened next in your career. That

00:24:56.049 --> 00:24:59.750
was a crazy day. So my first job was military

00:24:59.750 --> 00:25:02.410
intelligence. And I had got stationed at a headquarters

00:25:02.410 --> 00:25:06.069
building in Scott Air Force Base, Illinois, which

00:25:06.069 --> 00:25:08.380
is funny because I put. I wanted to go all overseas,

00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:11.460
get out of Illinois, all the things. And I get

00:25:11.460 --> 00:25:14.039
my orders and it said Scott Air Force Base, Illinois.

00:25:14.140 --> 00:25:16.799
I was like, where the hell is this at? And so

00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:19.380
I go home on leave, collect all my stuff and

00:25:19.380 --> 00:25:22.400
drive down. And I had never been out of the city

00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:24.960
or suburbs. I thought Illinois was one big city

00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:26.440
and the rest of suburbs. I'm driving through

00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:28.200
cornfields and all the things. I was a shock

00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:31.420
within itself. But I just remember that day sitting

00:25:31.420 --> 00:25:34.140
in the vault and, you know, we would have camera

00:25:34.140 --> 00:25:37.500
or TVs with the news going on. And there's this

00:25:37.500 --> 00:25:40.000
pretty big secure vault. And the first plane

00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:42.019
hit. And I remember the lieutenant was like,

00:25:42.099 --> 00:25:44.200
Marquez, get over here. And we were watching

00:25:44.200 --> 00:25:46.059
it. We're like, we didn't realize it was a big

00:25:46.059 --> 00:25:48.119
plane. And, you know, people are like, oh, man,

00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:50.000
some air traffic controllers getting fired today.

00:25:50.099 --> 00:25:51.660
Like, how does that happen? Like, what the hell?

00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:53.599
And then the second one hit. It was like dead

00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:56.359
silence. And then the phone started ringing and

00:25:56.359 --> 00:25:58.240
everyone just scattered. The base shut down.

00:25:58.420 --> 00:26:01.099
There's Humvees everywhere with 50 cals mounted.

00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:05.299
It was like game on. just it got real busy real

00:26:05.299 --> 00:26:08.500
fast and i was in charge of these certain kits

00:26:08.500 --> 00:26:11.140
that we'd send out uh communication kits and

00:26:11.140 --> 00:26:13.960
started shipping those out real quick nobody

00:26:13.960 --> 00:26:15.539
knew what the hell was going on we just knew

00:26:15.539 --> 00:26:17.960
that something was going to happen real soon

00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:22.599
just got busy real quick and then i had requested

00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:24.500
to deploy right away and they're like well your

00:26:24.500 --> 00:26:27.119
upgrade training's not done so Hurryed up with

00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:29.380
my upgrade training and all the things. And because

00:26:29.380 --> 00:26:32.380
I worked for AMC, Air Mobility Command, so it's

00:26:32.380 --> 00:26:35.339
the big cargo planes, there weren't any in -country.

00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:37.839
There's some, but not the ones that we dealt

00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:41.859
with. So I got sent to Ramstein like five times

00:26:41.859 --> 00:26:44.619
to go do the intel briefs for the planes going

00:26:44.619 --> 00:26:47.480
back and forth from in -country, just giving

00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:49.880
them their threat briefs and escape and evasion

00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:52.339
charts and updating all their information in

00:26:52.339 --> 00:26:55.279
case something happened. Ramstein's Germany.

00:26:55.859 --> 00:27:00.720
Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's the main hub. So

00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:04.099
where did that lead you? So I was at Scott for

00:27:04.099 --> 00:27:08.940
about three years. Went to Spain a few times,

00:27:08.940 --> 00:27:12.400
Germany, a bunch of other places, Turkey, Kuwait,

00:27:12.500 --> 00:27:14.680
all kinds of stuff, just doing those intel briefs,

00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:19.539
doing training stuff. And then my boss was like,

00:27:19.619 --> 00:27:20.960
hey, man, you got to get out of Illinois. You

00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:23.180
got to get to another place. And I went to Korea,

00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:26.599
Kunsan Air Base for a year. and worked with the

00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:29.740
fighters and that was a whole other crazy experience

00:27:29.740 --> 00:27:32.799
that was at the time when uh north korea started

00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:35.519
doing their nuclear tests and being in that mix

00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:38.559
and almost being on edge the whole time where

00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:40.460
nothing's really happening right now but it could

00:27:40.460 --> 00:27:42.160
and if it does it's going to go real bad real

00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:47.559
quick and and that that uh i think that started

00:27:47.559 --> 00:27:50.660
the real like mental health type issues because

00:27:50.660 --> 00:27:53.200
when i was at scott i was only four hours away

00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:55.099
from home so i could go home and see my buddies

00:27:55.099 --> 00:27:58.660
but then i'm in korea for a year completely isolated

00:27:58.660 --> 00:28:01.640
from every anybody can't go home all the things

00:28:01.640 --> 00:28:04.160
and drinking was big there i mean there was a

00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:07.660
lot of drinking going on in korea and that's

00:28:07.660 --> 00:28:10.240
what we did we worked and drank because you couldn't

00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:11.920
have your families there either as a remote tour

00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:14.680
so folks that were married and had kids are there

00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:19.559
alone as well so you got really close it was

00:28:19.559 --> 00:28:22.059
really close in the community but also there's

00:28:22.059 --> 00:28:23.660
a lot of drinking involved which didn't help

00:28:23.660 --> 00:28:25.819
the isolation of being away from family and whatnot

00:28:25.819 --> 00:28:28.859
and it was a very high tempo uh ops as well so

00:28:28.859 --> 00:28:31.640
it was good it was cool uh learned a lot but

00:28:31.640 --> 00:28:33.680
it was definitely uh i feel like that was the

00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:37.680
start of my struggles well i guess exposing said

00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:41.160
struggles from even earlier in childhood it's

00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:45.299
interesting i saw a documentary on um people

00:28:45.299 --> 00:28:47.740
trying to escape north korea and there was a

00:28:47.740 --> 00:28:49.759
graphic which i'd seen actually shared on the

00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:53.180
internet before but it showed you know the advance

00:28:53.180 --> 00:28:57.460
of the north koreans through korea and how like

00:28:57.460 --> 00:29:00.099
close they were to be completely overrun and

00:29:00.099 --> 00:29:02.759
our you know the americans and the allies put

00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:04.980
literally pushed them from like the very tip

00:29:04.980 --> 00:29:07.359
of korea all the way back to the point that we

00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:10.359
know today and again it's so sad because that's

00:29:10.359 --> 00:29:12.640
the kind of as they say the forgotten war the

00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:15.059
heroism of that generation is also not really

00:29:15.059 --> 00:29:18.900
acknowledged by our country no not at all and

00:29:18.900 --> 00:29:20.460
i would have to give some of the intel briefs

00:29:20.460 --> 00:29:22.220
of the newcomers and just talk about how you

00:29:22.220 --> 00:29:24.500
know if things shake out what it looks like and

00:29:24.500 --> 00:29:27.759
it was kind of a scary brief and i would tell

00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:29.299
him he's like hey we're gonna win the war but

00:29:29.299 --> 00:29:30.900
we're not gonna be around for the parade like

00:29:30.900 --> 00:29:33.140
we're just a speed bump for the people in korea

00:29:33.140 --> 00:29:34.960
like if this kicks off it's gonna get ugly real

00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:39.079
quick what about korean culture when you know

00:29:39.079 --> 00:29:41.259
one of the big kind of through lines of this

00:29:41.259 --> 00:29:43.980
podcast is is literally having guests from around

00:29:43.980 --> 00:29:46.680
the world and so many countries this there's

00:29:46.680 --> 00:29:48.799
areas that they do really well that i think if

00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:50.740
we knowledge shared and have the humility to

00:29:50.740 --> 00:29:53.380
ask each other we could you know the the rising

00:29:53.380 --> 00:29:55.640
tide lifts all ships you know the whole planet

00:29:55.640 --> 00:29:58.200
could elevate were there any things about uh

00:29:58.200 --> 00:30:00.779
korean culture or kind of technologies or anything

00:30:00.779 --> 00:30:02.759
else that they had over there that you were kind

00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:05.920
of thinking wow this is pretty impressive um

00:30:06.380 --> 00:30:07.960
not so much like technology or anything like

00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:10.039
that i you know unfortunately i was in those

00:30:10.039 --> 00:30:12.539
young stages so i just hung around the bars and

00:30:12.539 --> 00:30:14.980
and that type of scene but the culture was really

00:30:14.980 --> 00:30:17.640
cool i really enjoyed it they had a uh a program

00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:20.059
at in kunsan where you can help teach english

00:30:20.059 --> 00:30:23.420
to uh korean students to children and that was

00:30:23.420 --> 00:30:26.099
an amazing experience so i would do that uh mostly

00:30:26.099 --> 00:30:28.380
on the weekends mostly saturday mornings and

00:30:28.380 --> 00:30:30.539
you would go to the school hang out with these

00:30:30.539 --> 00:30:32.200
kids for a couple hours help them with their

00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:35.359
english and And whatnot. And then the teachers

00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:39.140
would take you to traditional restaurants or

00:30:39.140 --> 00:30:41.740
to their home and teach you about culture. And

00:30:41.740 --> 00:30:44.119
everywhere they took you was a place that typically

00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:47.400
Americans or foreigners did not go. And that

00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:50.000
was an incredible experience. I love that. And

00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:56.019
I got to go volunteer at a Catholic nursing home

00:30:56.019 --> 00:30:57.819
in Korea, which was super cool. Like we learned

00:30:57.819 --> 00:31:01.430
how to make kimchi from. from scratch that was

00:31:01.430 --> 00:31:04.490
a really amazing experience so just the friendliness

00:31:04.490 --> 00:31:07.130
and the the accepting was really cool and just

00:31:07.130 --> 00:31:09.710
like anywhere else the older community really

00:31:09.710 --> 00:31:12.730
embraced uh from what i saw a lot of the americans

00:31:12.730 --> 00:31:15.170
because they because of the forgotten war and

00:31:15.170 --> 00:31:18.210
some some kids you know get some college kids

00:31:18.210 --> 00:31:22.089
that were against us being there but overwhelmingly

00:31:22.089 --> 00:31:24.869
it was a very positive experience with the culture

00:31:24.869 --> 00:31:28.069
and whatnot I tried to learn a little bit of

00:31:28.069 --> 00:31:30.569
the language and it was difficult, but I'm all

00:31:30.569 --> 00:31:33.049
in on the Korean food and bulgogi and kimchi

00:31:33.049 --> 00:31:36.390
and overall it was a great experience. I would

00:31:36.390 --> 00:31:40.650
love to go back and do more sightseeing and seeing

00:31:40.650 --> 00:31:43.190
some of what it has to offer. Going to the DMZ,

00:31:43.210 --> 00:31:46.710
that was an incredible experience. You go into

00:31:46.710 --> 00:31:48.970
the meeting house and you technically go to North

00:31:48.970 --> 00:31:50.630
Korea. When you go into the meeting house, you

00:31:50.630 --> 00:31:52.069
cross the blue line and you hurry up and run

00:31:52.069 --> 00:31:55.180
around. running around the table and seeing just

00:31:55.180 --> 00:31:57.640
the standoff with the Korean soldiers and the

00:31:57.640 --> 00:31:59.900
North Korean soldiers just standing there, literally

00:31:59.900 --> 00:32:01.940
staring at each other for hours on end, just,

00:32:02.019 --> 00:32:05.380
you know, like a little mini show of force. But

00:32:05.380 --> 00:32:08.819
I loved it. All the places I've been to were

00:32:08.819 --> 00:32:11.900
phenomenal, like Germany and all around Europe

00:32:11.900 --> 00:32:16.299
and Spain and even Turkey was pretty cool. Qatar,

00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:19.039
all the places I had really good experiences.

00:32:19.099 --> 00:32:22.509
Nothing negative to say about those at all. It's

00:32:22.509 --> 00:32:24.849
interesting seeing how much Korean culture has

00:32:24.849 --> 00:32:27.369
blown up in the West now. I mean, if you look

00:32:27.369 --> 00:32:29.309
on Netflix, there's so many, you know, Korean

00:32:29.309 --> 00:32:32.609
shows and films. And then we have K -pop. And,

00:32:32.650 --> 00:32:34.910
you know, when I remember, I think it was J -pop

00:32:34.910 --> 00:32:37.230
when I lived in Japan, like 20 plus years ago.

00:32:37.529 --> 00:32:41.309
But it was more then an adoration for the West,

00:32:41.509 --> 00:32:44.289
even though actually, like many areas, technology

00:32:44.289 --> 00:32:46.430
and fashion, they were way ahead of us. It was

00:32:46.430 --> 00:32:49.789
the other way around. But now I feel like it's

00:32:49.789 --> 00:32:52.289
side by side. Like all these artists, you know,

00:32:52.289 --> 00:32:54.410
are collaborating with each other. And it's it's

00:32:54.410 --> 00:32:56.529
so good to see that the Internet has kind of

00:32:56.529 --> 00:32:58.690
merged a lot of these countries, which is in

00:32:58.690 --> 00:33:02.450
a beautiful way. Yes. One of the benefits like

00:33:02.450 --> 00:33:04.750
social media and the Internet, just the positive

00:33:04.750 --> 00:33:06.670
connections that can be made. And you can definitely

00:33:06.670 --> 00:33:08.609
see it through the sharing of cultures, which

00:33:08.609 --> 00:33:10.910
is super cool. And I remember going to like a

00:33:10.910 --> 00:33:13.529
fake pizza hut and a fake Starbucks, you know,

00:33:13.529 --> 00:33:15.849
the logo. But it really wasn't. And stuff like

00:33:15.849 --> 00:33:17.769
that, seeing that adoption of American culture

00:33:17.769 --> 00:33:20.329
throughout the communities and the cities. pretty

00:33:20.329 --> 00:33:23.549
funny and cool yeah it's sad as well because

00:33:23.549 --> 00:33:25.930
you think about north koreans and again we only

00:33:25.930 --> 00:33:29.450
get the images that are sent but you know this

00:33:29.450 --> 00:33:32.470
this adoration of the leader and this you know

00:33:32.470 --> 00:33:34.569
these parades for them and you know obviously

00:33:34.569 --> 00:33:37.589
the the propaganda that they're fed forget the

00:33:37.589 --> 00:33:39.990
west but just their brothers and sisters to the

00:33:39.990 --> 00:33:43.190
south these are the same people and you know

00:33:43.190 --> 00:33:45.390
if you allow a tyrant to rise and i know the

00:33:45.390 --> 00:33:48.680
origin obviously was post world war ii But how

00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:50.920
tragic it is that you can divide. I mean, look

00:33:50.920 --> 00:33:53.359
at even, you know, East and West Berlin. You

00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:55.759
can just simply put a barrier or a wall up and

00:33:55.759 --> 00:33:59.140
you can actually condition people to hate each

00:33:59.140 --> 00:34:01.559
other, even though they're the same people. Yeah,

00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:06.259
that's crazy to see for sure. All right. Well,

00:34:06.299 --> 00:34:08.940
then after Korea, walk me through what happens

00:34:08.940 --> 00:34:12.519
next. So I was in Korea and I was supposed to

00:34:12.519 --> 00:34:15.940
have a follow on tour to England and I was working

00:34:15.940 --> 00:34:18.659
with fighter pilots in Korea. Didn't have the

00:34:18.659 --> 00:34:21.480
best experience. I just don't think I was good

00:34:21.480 --> 00:34:23.260
enough, to be quite honest, to work with them

00:34:23.260 --> 00:34:26.800
because they're so high speed. And so I denied

00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:30.900
my follow on to England and I went back to working

00:34:30.900 --> 00:34:33.380
with the heavy aircraft, the AMC command. So

00:34:33.380 --> 00:34:35.980
I ended up in McGuire Air Force Base in New Jersey.

00:34:36.539 --> 00:34:38.800
And that's when I kind of started my firefighter

00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:40.559
journey. Like I started really talking to my

00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:43.219
dad about the fire department because I realized

00:34:43.219 --> 00:34:46.019
like sitting in an office, especially in vaults

00:34:46.019 --> 00:34:49.170
with no windows. just something was missing and

00:34:49.170 --> 00:34:50.989
he he'd always talk about how much he loved the

00:34:50.989 --> 00:34:52.650
job but he didn't push it it was just little

00:34:52.650 --> 00:34:56.070
little uh snapshots here and there and i started

00:34:56.070 --> 00:34:58.730
remembering uh going to the station and how cool

00:34:58.730 --> 00:35:01.050
it was and how fun it was uh meeting the guys

00:35:01.050 --> 00:35:03.969
and when i was home on leave my dad had already

00:35:03.969 --> 00:35:06.449
been retired and starting to hang out with him

00:35:06.449 --> 00:35:08.869
and uh going to retirement parties from guys

00:35:08.869 --> 00:35:11.050
that i remember when i was really little and

00:35:11.050 --> 00:35:12.869
just seeing the camaraderie i was like man this

00:35:12.869 --> 00:35:15.329
is this is really cool i like what this is about

00:35:15.329 --> 00:35:18.469
so when i went to new jersey I actually started

00:35:18.469 --> 00:35:22.670
volunteering at the local volunteer fire department

00:35:22.670 --> 00:35:25.670
in Lumberton, New Jersey. So I went to their

00:35:25.670 --> 00:35:28.530
academy at night and started volunteering with

00:35:28.530 --> 00:35:30.849
them because I figured I was like, well, let

00:35:30.849 --> 00:35:33.590
me start slow. If I volunteer and I like it,

00:35:33.650 --> 00:35:35.190
well, then obviously I should pursue it. And

00:35:35.190 --> 00:35:38.550
if I don't, then it was a good test with, I don't

00:35:38.550 --> 00:35:40.010
want to say minimal effort, but minimal risk.

00:35:40.130 --> 00:35:41.690
Right. I didn't have to leave anything to get

00:35:41.690 --> 00:35:44.469
into it. So I fell in love with it quickly. And

00:35:44.469 --> 00:35:47.150
then I actually. changed jobs in the Air Force

00:35:47.150 --> 00:35:48.949
to become an Air Force firefighter. So after

00:35:48.949 --> 00:35:51.690
McGuire, I went to the Department of Defense

00:35:51.690 --> 00:35:56.150
Fire Academy in Goodfellow, Texas, and then got

00:35:56.150 --> 00:35:58.690
stationed in Davis Mothlin in Tucson. So that's

00:35:58.690 --> 00:36:01.610
why I'm here. So I was here for about two years.

00:36:01.769 --> 00:36:05.590
I got out of active duty and got a civilian firefighter

00:36:05.590 --> 00:36:07.409
job out here and just stuck around. I started

00:36:07.409 --> 00:36:11.409
off at Tohono O 'odham Indian Nation and then

00:36:11.409 --> 00:36:16.110
moved to where I'm at now. What were the idiosyncrasies

00:36:16.110 --> 00:36:19.769
about the military firefighting that are different

00:36:19.769 --> 00:36:24.789
to the civilian side? There wasn't much difference,

00:36:24.849 --> 00:36:27.949
but the thing that made the Air Force fire department

00:36:27.949 --> 00:36:32.710
weird was obviously the focus on protecting the

00:36:32.710 --> 00:36:35.730
runways and aircraft. The ARF side of it was

00:36:35.730 --> 00:36:40.550
significantly different, but it was a very cool,

00:36:40.610 --> 00:36:45.869
weird experience. They, at least the fire, because

00:36:45.869 --> 00:36:47.769
I only have experience at one Air Force fire

00:36:47.769 --> 00:36:50.730
department, but it was treated like a civilian

00:36:50.730 --> 00:36:53.889
fire department where it was based on your position

00:36:53.889 --> 00:36:57.250
on the truck of your, of the hierarchy, you know.

00:36:57.329 --> 00:37:00.250
And so I came in as an E -5 staff sergeant, you

00:37:00.250 --> 00:37:01.730
know, not commissioned officer, but I was the

00:37:01.730 --> 00:37:04.369
new guy. So I was sitting backwards. So although

00:37:04.369 --> 00:37:06.849
I outranked the guy driving, it didn't matter

00:37:06.849 --> 00:37:10.139
because I was the new firefighter. So like your

00:37:10.139 --> 00:37:11.739
military rank didn't matter. It was all about

00:37:11.739 --> 00:37:13.800
your position on the truck. So that was kind

00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:15.699
of like a weird thing to navigate, like trying

00:37:15.699 --> 00:37:18.900
to fit in and that role. And then the schedules

00:37:18.900 --> 00:37:21.119
aren't that great because there's less shifts.

00:37:21.179 --> 00:37:24.739
So we're 24 on 24 off with a Kelly day. So every,

00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:28.280
so I think it equated to like a six, three, six

00:37:28.280 --> 00:37:31.960
24s on, and then you got three days off. Other

00:37:31.960 --> 00:37:34.199
than that, it's fairly similar because you have

00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:35.940
base housing, you have buildings to worry about

00:37:35.940 --> 00:37:38.989
just adding in. you know trying to figure out

00:37:38.989 --> 00:37:41.710
how to how to cut out a pilot out of a fighter

00:37:41.710 --> 00:37:45.190
jet or egressing that or shutting down aircraft

00:37:45.190 --> 00:37:47.789
which is pretty scary when they're running and

00:37:47.789 --> 00:37:50.550
you gotta jump you know do some emergency procedures

00:37:50.550 --> 00:37:52.230
and chalk and tires and whatnot while there's

00:37:52.230 --> 00:37:54.269
a huge engine over your head that's a little

00:37:54.269 --> 00:37:56.530
scary but other than that it was pretty similar

00:37:56.530 --> 00:37:59.869
i've had a few air force firefighters on the

00:37:59.869 --> 00:38:03.809
show um there's there's one side where you know

00:38:03.809 --> 00:38:05.849
they're on the space pretty much as soon as the

00:38:05.849 --> 00:38:08.719
the aircraft stops landing They're pretty much

00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:10.579
good for the rest of the night. And then you've

00:38:10.579 --> 00:38:13.300
got others that are almost acting like a municipal

00:38:13.300 --> 00:38:15.039
department. They're running calls through the

00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:18.199
night. Which of those two kind of sides was yours

00:38:18.199 --> 00:38:22.260
more familiar with? Us both, because there was

00:38:22.260 --> 00:38:26.500
two stations. So there's one right on the flight

00:38:26.500 --> 00:38:28.360
line, which primarily dealt with the aircraft

00:38:28.360 --> 00:38:30.460
things. And there's one that was closer to base

00:38:30.460 --> 00:38:34.519
housing that did the housing. But yeah, it just

00:38:34.519 --> 00:38:36.199
depended where the call was, whatever closest

00:38:36.199 --> 00:38:41.880
was. If there was somebody working a 24 -hour

00:38:41.880 --> 00:38:43.380
shift, let's say in the command post, and it

00:38:43.380 --> 00:38:46.820
was next to the flight line, well, if they had

00:38:46.820 --> 00:38:49.079
a medical emergency, we went. So it was both.

00:38:49.900 --> 00:38:52.860
They always said, though, the primary focus would

00:38:52.860 --> 00:38:54.380
be the flight line. Like if a plane was coming

00:38:54.380 --> 00:38:56.039
in, emergency, and there was a house fire, we're

00:38:56.039 --> 00:38:58.119
going to the plane first, and the local fire

00:38:58.119 --> 00:38:59.380
department could take care of the house fire.

00:38:59.500 --> 00:39:01.880
But, yeah, it was a nice combination of both.

00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:04.800
Well, you mentioned about being on a Native American

00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:08.940
reservation. Again, this is another kind of group

00:39:08.940 --> 00:39:11.360
of people I don't think get the kind of exposure

00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:15.480
and conversations that they need. You have obviously

00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:18.300
this kind of native heritage and then this loss

00:39:18.300 --> 00:39:20.619
of tribe, literally in this term, where some

00:39:20.619 --> 00:39:23.340
of these tribes were smited from the States.

00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:26.340
And then I also hear about poverty, desperation,

00:39:26.659 --> 00:39:29.099
addiction in some of these areas too. What was

00:39:29.099 --> 00:39:30.960
your experience in that particular place you

00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:36.739
worked? It was incredible. I loved it. Unfortunately,

00:39:36.739 --> 00:39:39.219
ego and not understanding how things really work

00:39:39.219 --> 00:39:43.960
made me leave, right? I was like, oh, we're sitting

00:39:43.960 --> 00:39:47.219
in this single wide trailer with just two to

00:39:47.219 --> 00:39:49.079
three of us fighting this fire. I should go to

00:39:49.079 --> 00:39:51.039
a big city department and really get after it.

00:39:51.099 --> 00:39:54.239
But I fought more fire there than I did at the

00:39:54.239 --> 00:39:57.099
fire department I'm at now. I don't regret the

00:39:57.099 --> 00:40:00.059
move, but yeah, there was a lot of sadness there

00:40:00.059 --> 00:40:03.599
as well. and the culture and some some trust

00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:05.340
issues as well which i completely understand

00:40:05.340 --> 00:40:07.280
you know they did a bunch of hiring and there's

00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:09.599
a lot of non -natives that were hired and it

00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:13.659
took a lot of effort to to uh fit in and you

00:40:13.659 --> 00:40:16.019
know and i understood and i think that was a

00:40:16.019 --> 00:40:18.920
benefit of my military experiences is being in

00:40:18.920 --> 00:40:21.179
different cultures like hey look this isn't your

00:40:21.179 --> 00:40:24.349
home Don't come in here and think it is or try

00:40:24.349 --> 00:40:26.250
to run things just because you got hired on to

00:40:26.250 --> 00:40:28.030
the fire department. These guys have been here

00:40:28.030 --> 00:40:29.650
longer than you. They know the culture. They

00:40:29.650 --> 00:40:32.429
know the language. They know the area. You need

00:40:32.429 --> 00:40:35.710
to fit in and be humble. And it was an awesome

00:40:35.710 --> 00:40:38.130
experience. It took a lot of time to learn the

00:40:38.130 --> 00:40:42.369
culture, go to the different events. And it took

00:40:42.369 --> 00:40:44.969
a little bit of time, but I feel like I've built

00:40:44.969 --> 00:40:47.510
some trust while I was there and really integrated

00:40:47.510 --> 00:40:52.260
myself as much as I could. so please please carry

00:40:52.260 --> 00:40:56.000
on oh and then the crazy thing is it's a pretty

00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:58.199
big nation it's the size of connecticut i believe

00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:01.119
with four stations so sometimes our response

00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:03.960
times are like 45 minutes it which is pretty

00:41:03.960 --> 00:41:07.480
wild and then it borders it borders mexico and

00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:11.019
there's kind of a kind of almost like free passing

00:41:11.019 --> 00:41:14.219
because a lot of the uh the natives uh extend

00:41:14.219 --> 00:41:16.940
into mexico so that same tribe has uh tribal

00:41:16.940 --> 00:41:20.010
members in mexico as well so But there was also

00:41:20.010 --> 00:41:22.809
a lot of the drug trafficking or immigration

00:41:22.809 --> 00:41:26.389
and whatnot. So summers were rough. I have a

00:41:26.389 --> 00:41:29.510
lot of bad memories of running on people that

00:41:29.510 --> 00:41:31.130
were simply trying to find a better way, got

00:41:31.130 --> 00:41:33.489
lost in the desert and needed help. But, you

00:41:33.489 --> 00:41:35.389
know, sometimes it's too late and sometimes it's

00:41:35.389 --> 00:41:37.750
right on time. I had some scary ones, too. I

00:41:37.750 --> 00:41:40.730
remember going to a wildland fire at night and

00:41:40.730 --> 00:41:43.010
we had to be escorted by a border patrol. And

00:41:43.010 --> 00:41:45.630
he was sitting there just racking his AR -15,

00:41:45.849 --> 00:41:49.059
making noise. he looked over at me he's like

00:41:49.059 --> 00:41:50.360
you know i'm doing that i was like i have no

00:41:50.360 --> 00:41:51.940
idea why you're doing that he's like look in

00:41:51.940 --> 00:41:53.699
the mountains and you see these little spotlights

00:41:53.699 --> 00:41:55.940
because there are spotters for the people running

00:41:55.940 --> 00:41:59.639
running drugs it's like oh got it so he wanted

00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:02.800
them to know that we were there and you know

00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:04.860
we leave the lights on the fire truck on purpose

00:42:04.860 --> 00:42:07.519
so they know we're there and whatnot so sometimes

00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:10.219
it's a little hairy but yeah it's definitely

00:42:10.219 --> 00:42:13.500
interesting for sure so what kind of kind of

00:42:13.500 --> 00:42:16.380
town um city did you find yourself as far as

00:42:16.380 --> 00:42:19.320
the dynamic of your current department the current

00:42:19.320 --> 00:42:23.460
one is um we have 10 stations so it's in a town

00:42:23.460 --> 00:42:26.940
of oral valley so it not as big as a city so

00:42:26.940 --> 00:42:30.719
a nice uh size municipality i guess like a suburb

00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:35.340
type deal so as you and it's pretty i'm sorry

00:42:35.340 --> 00:42:38.159
and it's pretty cool um while i was while i went

00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:40.280
to orders they started automatic aid with another

00:42:40.280 --> 00:42:43.780
town's fire department and then uh tucson fire

00:42:43.780 --> 00:42:45.960
department trying to almost mirroring what phoenix

00:42:45.960 --> 00:42:48.840
does without that automatic aid or doesn't matter

00:42:48.840 --> 00:42:50.380
what it says on your truck whoever's closer goes

00:42:50.380 --> 00:42:53.280
so it kind of turned into a really big uh department

00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:57.260
pretty quick have you had the chance to figure

00:42:57.260 --> 00:43:00.119
out how they did that because when i worked in

00:43:00.119 --> 00:43:02.320
anaheim for example that's what we had and we

00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:04.079
even trained together there was a couple of training

00:43:04.079 --> 00:43:06.300
centers and and all the neighboring departments

00:43:06.300 --> 00:43:08.300
would come in and we do drills and we do class

00:43:08.300 --> 00:43:11.050
time and You know, you go on a fire and yeah,

00:43:11.090 --> 00:43:13.230
you just, as you said, however many engines you

00:43:13.230 --> 00:43:15.489
need, right? Three Anaheim, two Fullerton, whatever

00:43:15.489 --> 00:43:18.329
it is. And we make this compliment. I've worked

00:43:18.329 --> 00:43:21.409
in other places where county and city won't even

00:43:21.409 --> 00:43:24.389
talk to each other, which nauseates me. I mean,

00:43:24.409 --> 00:43:27.010
if you have that kind of narcissism in your leadership,

00:43:27.110 --> 00:43:30.070
then you need a clean house. When you kind of

00:43:30.070 --> 00:43:31.969
think back, what were the things that were put

00:43:31.969 --> 00:43:34.949
in place to allow the humility and the leadership

00:43:34.949 --> 00:43:37.469
in your area to create such a great relationship?

00:43:38.559 --> 00:43:40.900
Yeah, it's a good question that I don't know.

00:43:40.980 --> 00:43:43.539
You know, I was either at the engineer or captain

00:43:43.539 --> 00:43:45.860
level when that happened. We just knew it was

00:43:45.860 --> 00:43:47.940
in the talks, but I think we're kind of spoiled

00:43:47.940 --> 00:43:50.800
being close to Phoenix. And from my understanding,

00:43:51.059 --> 00:43:53.440
they're the ones that really implemented that

00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:56.420
into the Valley. So I think just the Arizona

00:43:56.420 --> 00:43:58.460
Chiefs Council got together, figured out how

00:43:58.460 --> 00:44:01.539
Phoenix did it, and then Tucson Fire, Northwest

00:44:01.539 --> 00:44:03.780
Fire, and our fire department just got together

00:44:03.780 --> 00:44:05.000
and was like, hey, how do we make this happen?

00:44:05.099 --> 00:44:07.000
And they just made it happen. So I don't know

00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:09.320
how long it took. don't know the ins and outs,

00:44:09.420 --> 00:44:12.780
but from the outside looking in, it seemed pretty

00:44:12.780 --> 00:44:14.579
seamless. But again, we don't know what talks

00:44:14.579 --> 00:44:16.280
are being had between district members, board

00:44:16.280 --> 00:44:18.800
members, city council, and all those, all that

00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:21.320
goodness. Brilliant. I'm actually about to interview

00:44:21.320 --> 00:44:25.679
John Brunicini soon. So I'll ask him. Yeah. He

00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:29.860
may or may not have some insight on that. All

00:44:29.860 --> 00:44:31.820
right. Well then let's kind of go before we hit

00:44:31.820 --> 00:44:34.519
the mental health side. When you reflect back

00:44:34.519 --> 00:44:37.119
now as a firefighter, now a municipal firefighter,

00:44:37.659 --> 00:44:40.239
what were some of the career calls and then if

00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:42.139
there's any that you want to weave in that actually

00:44:42.139 --> 00:44:45.219
contributed to you know the downwards uh spiral

00:44:45.219 --> 00:44:49.039
that you encountered yeah it's interesting to

00:44:49.039 --> 00:44:50.800
say that because it will it will dovetail nicely

00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:52.739
with the uh struggle well course and the warrior

00:44:52.739 --> 00:44:56.460
path there's there's probably two main calls

00:44:56.460 --> 00:44:58.559
that really stick out in my head like new year's

00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:01.400
eve will never be the same so i remember getting

00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:03.599
toned out like right at midnight like you look

00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:06.369
at your watches like is this a movie right at

00:45:06.369 --> 00:45:09.369
midnight and uh it was a 17 year old kid that

00:45:09.369 --> 00:45:12.329
got stabbed in the heart and uh you know it's

00:45:12.329 --> 00:45:14.570
kind of like through gang violence so i remember

00:45:14.570 --> 00:45:17.210
getting there and pulling them out of this big

00:45:17.210 --> 00:45:20.750
bonfire and i remember all our looking back you

00:45:20.750 --> 00:45:23.650
know after we did our after action like a lot

00:45:23.650 --> 00:45:25.150
of our gear was burned because it fell in the

00:45:25.150 --> 00:45:27.420
fire but there was a A lot of animosity, like,

00:45:27.460 --> 00:45:29.300
yeah, that's what you get, you know, almost like

00:45:29.300 --> 00:45:32.019
cheering on his death. And I just remember doing

00:45:32.019 --> 00:45:33.639
compressions and the blood coming out of his

00:45:33.639 --> 00:45:35.460
chest, like there's no way. And his uncle being

00:45:35.460 --> 00:45:37.820
there because it was a small community. And I

00:45:37.820 --> 00:45:39.760
just remember him, you know, passing away in

00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:41.519
the firehouse. And as soon as he got back in

00:45:41.519 --> 00:45:43.079
the truck, it was just another call. Like we

00:45:43.079 --> 00:45:45.280
left the station at midnight. We didn't get back

00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:48.059
until I think four or five. So no time to sleep,

00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:50.079
no time to decompress, no time to talk about

00:45:50.079 --> 00:45:52.360
it. And we just didn't talk about it. So that

00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:56.059
one sticks out in my mind a lot. you know uh

00:45:56.059 --> 00:45:59.099
and then there was one where we saved a guy and

00:45:59.099 --> 00:46:01.599
um you know we're all excited and pulled him

00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:03.579
out of the car pretty gnarly accident and uh

00:46:03.579 --> 00:46:06.659
you know we found out later that the family was

00:46:06.659 --> 00:46:10.679
kind of upset because now he has the uh the brain

00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:12.199
capacity of a five -year -old so it's almost

00:46:12.199 --> 00:46:14.460
like he would have been better off dead because

00:46:14.460 --> 00:46:17.820
although we saved him saved his life he was in

00:46:17.820 --> 00:46:19.760
such a bad way that he doesn't really have a

00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:22.840
quality of life anymore so that that one that

00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:25.880
one stings a lot and then uh Yeah, just a lot

00:46:25.880 --> 00:46:28.960
of I remember opening up a semi truck that Border

00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:31.639
Patrol called us on and we opened up the door

00:46:31.639 --> 00:46:35.579
and there's just a bunch of people crossing the

00:46:35.579 --> 00:46:37.420
border, a bunch of immigrants there. And one

00:46:37.420 --> 00:46:40.159
young girl, I think she was 20 years old, died

00:46:40.159 --> 00:46:43.960
of hyperthermia. Just couldn't couldn't bring

00:46:43.960 --> 00:46:46.539
her back. Those are the big ones that stand out

00:46:46.539 --> 00:46:51.159
to me. But I think pairing that as far as. with

00:46:51.159 --> 00:46:52.500
the mental health and the struggle well in the

00:46:52.500 --> 00:46:54.659
warrior path was that I just didn't have any

00:46:54.659 --> 00:46:58.880
ways to deal with it. There was no ways to process

00:46:58.880 --> 00:47:01.360
that. There was no wellness practices involved

00:47:01.360 --> 00:47:03.699
other than, hey, let's go get a beer. Let's go

00:47:03.699 --> 00:47:06.380
meet up at the, you know, zero seven in the morning

00:47:06.380 --> 00:47:08.719
and get a six pack type deal. That's the only

00:47:08.719 --> 00:47:11.619
way to deal with it. And like my friend, Molly,

00:47:11.820 --> 00:47:14.119
she was telling me that she instructs at the

00:47:14.119 --> 00:47:15.920
local community college and she likes to talk

00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:19.210
about the mental health aspect as of. You know,

00:47:19.210 --> 00:47:22.469
we're seeing recruiting, hurting and PD and military

00:47:22.469 --> 00:47:25.210
and fire. And it's because we hear a lot about

00:47:25.210 --> 00:47:27.929
post -traumatic stress disorder. We hear a lot

00:47:27.929 --> 00:47:32.489
about no sleep. We hear all the bad things associated

00:47:32.489 --> 00:47:36.469
with the firehouse. And although we got to take

00:47:36.469 --> 00:47:38.050
some responsibility and ownership is what she's

00:47:38.050 --> 00:47:40.030
trying to teach them is, yeah, these things are

00:47:40.030 --> 00:47:41.590
going to happen. You're signing up for trauma,

00:47:41.670 --> 00:47:45.070
but you also have a choice of, hey, am I going

00:47:45.070 --> 00:47:46.750
to go get hammered because this happened or am

00:47:46.750 --> 00:47:49.170
I going to. go for a hike or call somebody or

00:47:49.170 --> 00:47:52.309
talk about it or do some meditation like what

00:47:52.309 --> 00:47:54.630
wellness practices are you doing and prepared

00:47:54.630 --> 00:47:57.690
to do uh when these things happen as opposed

00:47:57.690 --> 00:47:59.369
to just throwing your hands up like i have no

00:47:59.369 --> 00:48:02.630
idea what to do Yeah. And I think that's the

00:48:02.630 --> 00:48:05.050
problem we've had with this conversation is a

00:48:05.050 --> 00:48:07.130
lot of times I've seen people put it on the shoulders

00:48:07.130 --> 00:48:10.090
of the firefighter. When you get home, your sleep

00:48:10.090 --> 00:48:12.469
hygiene and this and this and this, the answer

00:48:12.469 --> 00:48:15.690
is both. Yes, we absolutely have to have ownership

00:48:15.690 --> 00:48:18.969
and understand the value of our sleep. And when

00:48:18.969 --> 00:48:21.889
you're reaching for a beer, asking yourself why,

00:48:22.030 --> 00:48:23.789
and like you said, could it walk or a meditation

00:48:23.789 --> 00:48:26.789
or a swim or a cold plunge, take away that urge.

00:48:27.090 --> 00:48:29.880
But we've also got to look at the working environment,

00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:31.880
you know, and I think that the way you process

00:48:31.880 --> 00:48:34.800
trauma is sleep, you know, so we have to look

00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:36.559
at the way that we work our firefighters and

00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:38.840
say, is this working? Is this the right environment?

00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:41.000
And I know I beat a dead horse talking about

00:48:41.000 --> 00:48:43.460
this. But, you know, this is what I don't see

00:48:43.460 --> 00:48:45.179
departments doing is looking in the mirror and

00:48:45.179 --> 00:48:47.400
go, what are we doing wrong? It's always even

00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:50.840
with the cancer. Oh, it's it's the it's the PFAS.

00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:52.860
That was the latest thing. Well, that's still

00:48:52.860 --> 00:48:55.760
you pointing away from yourself. You know, sleep

00:48:55.760 --> 00:48:58.539
deprivation is also a carcinogen. I know departments

00:48:58.539 --> 00:49:00.579
that never run fire that have lost numerous firefighters

00:49:00.579 --> 00:49:03.219
to cancer. So if it was just the carcinogens,

00:49:03.320 --> 00:49:07.079
then be easy fix. But yeah, so I think it's such

00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:09.340
an important conversation that we address both

00:49:09.340 --> 00:49:11.699
simultaneously because then you'll have a double

00:49:11.699 --> 00:49:15.619
effect. Yeah, absolutely. Definitely takes a

00:49:15.619 --> 00:49:20.219
team effort for sure. You know, it's easy to

00:49:20.219 --> 00:49:22.619
blame the environment, easy to blame the individual.

00:49:22.920 --> 00:49:25.199
It's easy to point fingers. It's really hard

00:49:25.199 --> 00:49:28.099
to. to put in extra work to see how we could

00:49:28.099 --> 00:49:29.360
really figure this out. You're never going to

00:49:29.360 --> 00:49:31.320
figure it out perfectly, but sure as hell can

00:49:31.320 --> 00:49:33.139
make some, some different strides to make it

00:49:33.139 --> 00:49:35.679
better for sure. Yeah. And the schedule, it's,

00:49:35.679 --> 00:49:38.559
it's, it's crazy, right? Cause I remember my

00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:40.239
dad, you know, this is the best schedule in the

00:49:40.239 --> 00:49:43.300
world. And we look at it like, well, is it? So,

00:49:43.340 --> 00:49:46.400
so some, it has its benefits, especially at slower

00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:49.159
stations, but at a busy station, you know, stand

00:49:49.159 --> 00:49:51.019
at 24 for me and then getting home and trying

00:49:51.019 --> 00:49:55.000
to operate is not fun. No. No. And again, I put

00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:56.960
a post out a little while ago. I did the math

00:49:56.960 --> 00:50:01.980
where I figured out how many days a year a Monday

00:50:01.980 --> 00:50:04.320
to Friday person works, you know, and it was

00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:06.699
260 days a year because they have the weekends

00:50:06.699 --> 00:50:08.940
off. And that's before obviously vacation. If

00:50:08.940 --> 00:50:11.400
you factor an eight hour day as a firefighter,

00:50:11.420 --> 00:50:15.940
so that's apples to apples, it equates to 364

00:50:15.940 --> 00:50:19.360
days a year. So you get a day off. every year

00:50:19.360 --> 00:50:22.139
that's it so I mean I've been harping about this

00:50:22.139 --> 00:50:25.239
we do not have a great schedule unless you're

00:50:25.239 --> 00:50:27.400
listening and you do a full platoon system and

00:50:27.400 --> 00:50:30.159
then it's much better still not great because

00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:32.739
civilians that don't save lives work 40 hours

00:50:32.739 --> 00:50:36.019
a week but you know a lot better than a 56 but

00:50:36.019 --> 00:50:38.840
but yeah I mean we have to debunk that myth because

00:50:38.840 --> 00:50:43.000
it's just completely wrong yeah and guaranteed

00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:46.000
sleep right we don't have we might get some sleep

00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:49.389
but The 40 -hour jobs, even if you're working

00:50:49.389 --> 00:50:51.650
shift work, which isn't very healthy, you're

00:50:51.650 --> 00:50:54.710
still at least guaranteed a chunk where if you

00:50:54.710 --> 00:50:58.289
can't sleep, it won't get interrupted. Absolutely.

00:50:58.690 --> 00:51:01.050
Well, you talked about some of the traumas. You

00:51:01.050 --> 00:51:04.329
talked about initially working your father and

00:51:04.329 --> 00:51:08.329
then watching your crew. Where was the lowest

00:51:08.329 --> 00:51:10.710
place that you found yourself? And then let's

00:51:10.710 --> 00:51:15.789
walk through how you found Boulder Crest. this

00:51:15.789 --> 00:51:17.690
journey started a long time ago probably around

00:51:17.690 --> 00:51:23.909
i would say sometime after when i got back from

00:51:23.909 --> 00:51:28.349
korea and started uh working in new jersey at

00:51:28.349 --> 00:51:30.969
that air force base just something was off always

00:51:30.969 --> 00:51:36.449
angry tired drinking was uh top of mind you know

00:51:36.449 --> 00:51:38.530
the bad habits the addictions whether that was

00:51:38.530 --> 00:51:43.369
uh porn womanizing boozing whatever bad decisions

00:51:43.369 --> 00:51:46.869
just something going on so that started then

00:51:46.869 --> 00:51:52.929
and a lot of uh i guess bad relationship decisions

00:51:52.929 --> 00:51:57.150
and just being an asshole just across the board

00:51:57.150 --> 00:51:59.809
whether it was with friends or intimate relationships

00:51:59.809 --> 00:52:03.889
and just not being a good dude and they started

00:52:03.889 --> 00:52:05.690
getting a little bit of help and and this is

00:52:05.690 --> 00:52:08.360
what actually uh led me into social work as well

00:52:08.360 --> 00:52:10.900
finishing up that degree is I remember I was

00:52:10.900 --> 00:52:12.300
like all right I'm gonna start getting help and

00:52:12.300 --> 00:52:16.219
I went to one therapist and I told her the stories

00:52:16.219 --> 00:52:19.519
that I shared here and and a few others I'm just

00:52:19.519 --> 00:52:22.480
gonna spare you the details but she got up crying

00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:24.039
and left the room and then came back and was

00:52:24.039 --> 00:52:25.940
like okay we're done here I was like oh sweet

00:52:25.940 --> 00:52:28.760
all right that's how this works and then I remember

00:52:28.760 --> 00:52:31.260
going to another therapist and he gave me like

00:52:31.260 --> 00:52:33.260
a bunch of like homework and asked me some random

00:52:33.260 --> 00:52:36.070
questions and He ended it with like, do you wish

00:52:36.070 --> 00:52:38.510
your parents were dead? I was like, not really,

00:52:38.650 --> 00:52:40.269
but I don't know where we're going with this.

00:52:40.309 --> 00:52:41.489
I was like, all right, we're done here. So I

00:52:41.489 --> 00:52:44.269
was like completely turned off from that. And

00:52:44.269 --> 00:52:47.369
then witnessing three different firefighter buddies,

00:52:47.510 --> 00:52:50.650
two were told, hey, it's too hard for you. You

00:52:50.650 --> 00:52:52.269
should just retire. And they're really good firefighters.

00:52:52.349 --> 00:52:54.210
So they did because they didn't give them any

00:52:54.210 --> 00:52:57.809
ways out. And then another one was told that,

00:52:57.889 --> 00:53:01.190
hey, when those calls that trigger you ring out,

00:53:01.250 --> 00:53:03.320
just don't go. He's like, that's not how this

00:53:03.320 --> 00:53:07.179
works. I can't just knock on a call. And so that

00:53:07.179 --> 00:53:08.800
happened. And then I don't know how I got turned

00:53:08.800 --> 00:53:12.159
on to the therapist I ended up finding, but she

00:53:12.159 --> 00:53:14.039
had worked specifically with first responders

00:53:14.039 --> 00:53:16.760
and veterans. And that's what opened the door.

00:53:16.780 --> 00:53:18.719
I was like, okay, this might actually work. And

00:53:18.719 --> 00:53:21.780
then that came around the same time of meeting

00:53:21.780 --> 00:53:24.579
my wife, Aniella. And when I met her, I was like,

00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:27.219
I knew she's the one. Like, no questions asked.

00:53:27.380 --> 00:53:30.269
Like, this is going to work. And I was like,

00:53:30.269 --> 00:53:32.630
well, I got to really un -F myself if I want

00:53:32.630 --> 00:53:34.789
to make this work. And so that's when I started

00:53:34.789 --> 00:53:37.570
really hammering out all these issues and whatnot.

00:53:37.789 --> 00:53:41.030
So, yeah, I think it's just been a long time

00:53:41.030 --> 00:53:44.030
coming. And I finally realized that, you know,

00:53:44.030 --> 00:53:45.409
and when I talked to people, I was like, yeah,

00:53:45.409 --> 00:53:47.469
you know, I was 14, hanging out with a bunch

00:53:47.469 --> 00:53:48.809
of gang members, going to parties, drinking.

00:53:48.949 --> 00:53:50.230
Isn't that normal? And they're like, no, it's

00:53:50.230 --> 00:53:53.250
not normal. And then when the therapist was like,

00:53:53.349 --> 00:53:55.690
tell me about your childhood. I was like, I don't

00:53:55.690 --> 00:53:59.199
remember much. before 17 she's like yeah that's

00:53:59.199 --> 00:54:01.760
a problem so when i was like actually starting

00:54:01.760 --> 00:54:05.380
to figure out that whatever normal is it is what

00:54:05.380 --> 00:54:07.760
it is it's all relative but what i was going

00:54:07.760 --> 00:54:09.440
through what i was thinking and the things that

00:54:09.440 --> 00:54:12.260
happened to me i wouldn't say aren't normal or

00:54:12.260 --> 00:54:14.219
normal they were normal for where i grew up but

00:54:14.219 --> 00:54:16.920
they were having significant impact on on who

00:54:16.920 --> 00:54:20.000
i was and my health mentally and and my way to

00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:22.099
be a and getting in the way of me being a better

00:54:22.099 --> 00:54:25.119
person for sure yeah I mean, it's funny if you

00:54:25.119 --> 00:54:27.300
think about it, you know, a child growing up

00:54:27.300 --> 00:54:30.719
in a nuclear family in suburbia somewhere and

00:54:30.719 --> 00:54:32.739
the parents actually are madly in love with each

00:54:32.739 --> 00:54:35.320
other. You know, that's their normal. A little

00:54:35.320 --> 00:54:37.599
child growing up in Gaza at the moment, that's

00:54:37.599 --> 00:54:40.019
their normal. Two very different normals. So

00:54:40.019 --> 00:54:43.179
normal doesn't necessarily mean healthy. Yeah,

00:54:43.219 --> 00:54:46.360
exactly. Because, yeah, it's all relative for

00:54:46.360 --> 00:54:48.840
sure. Absolutely. All right. Well, then how did

00:54:48.840 --> 00:54:50.940
you find Boulder Crest? And let's start talking

00:54:50.940 --> 00:54:54.360
about the program that you went through. All

00:54:54.360 --> 00:54:58.420
right. So I first, so, you know, I've taken all

00:54:58.420 --> 00:55:00.739
the critical incident stress management, the

00:55:00.739 --> 00:55:03.619
compassion fatigue classes, all the CBTs we've

00:55:03.619 --> 00:55:05.039
got to do with the military, the same with the

00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:08.019
fire, all the assist training and suicide trainings,

00:55:08.079 --> 00:55:10.099
like how to, how to help somebody else, how to

00:55:10.099 --> 00:55:11.559
look for your friend, make sure everybody's taken

00:55:11.559 --> 00:55:13.039
care of, make sure your wingman's taken care

00:55:13.039 --> 00:55:16.519
of, all those courses. My commander at the time,

00:55:16.539 --> 00:55:18.480
he went through the Struggle Well course because

00:55:18.480 --> 00:55:20.619
he was friends with someone at Tucson Police

00:55:20.619 --> 00:55:23.079
Department. And apparently Tucson Police Department

00:55:23.079 --> 00:55:25.539
and Miami Police Department are the vanguards

00:55:25.539 --> 00:55:28.380
of the Struggle Well portion of Boulder Crest,

00:55:28.460 --> 00:55:30.780
which is specifically focused, I think it was

00:55:30.780 --> 00:55:32.420
on law enforcement. Now it's reaching out to

00:55:32.420 --> 00:55:35.139
fire and then it's reaching all first responders.

00:55:35.300 --> 00:55:38.199
So he went to that course and he knew I was very

00:55:38.199 --> 00:55:41.440
invested into mental health. And he was like,

00:55:41.500 --> 00:55:43.500
hey, bro, you should go to this course. And it's

00:55:43.500 --> 00:55:45.579
funny. i think i told him this but i guess he'll

00:55:45.579 --> 00:55:48.380
find out but i was like no i'm way too busy i'm

00:55:48.380 --> 00:55:49.980
good because in my mind i was like i'm not going

00:55:49.980 --> 00:55:52.000
through another resiliency course like they're

00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:54.119
not like what is going to make this different

00:55:54.119 --> 00:55:57.360
he's like okay cool and another one came up he's

00:55:57.360 --> 00:55:59.000
like hey i'm not really asking you this time

00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:01.820
you're gonna go i was like fine so i go into

00:56:01.820 --> 00:56:05.599
the struggle well course and um day one i was

00:56:05.599 --> 00:56:07.480
like ah here we go it's the same crap over and

00:56:07.480 --> 00:56:10.000
over again and then when we really got into it

00:56:10.000 --> 00:56:13.579
and really got into the work nothing they teach

00:56:13.579 --> 00:56:16.639
is new nothing they teach is cosmic or nothing

00:56:16.639 --> 00:56:18.619
we've heard before but just the way they packaged

00:56:18.619 --> 00:56:21.920
it the way they made it about like how can Tony

00:56:21.920 --> 00:56:24.159
help Tony how can James help James instead of

00:56:24.159 --> 00:56:26.440
hey Tony make sure James is okay and he'll make

00:56:26.440 --> 00:56:28.780
sure you're okay then you both will be okay it

00:56:28.780 --> 00:56:33.079
was like no no shit like how can you reflect

00:56:33.079 --> 00:56:34.920
on yourself reflect on your day -to -day reflect

00:56:34.920 --> 00:56:39.260
on your past understand that there are traumas

00:56:39.260 --> 00:56:41.769
that happened but what could what goodness can

00:56:41.769 --> 00:56:44.349
you get out of there and and so that's how i

00:56:44.349 --> 00:56:45.969
got exposed to boulder crushers through the struggle

00:56:45.969 --> 00:56:48.210
world course which was phenomenal and i thought

00:56:48.210 --> 00:56:50.949
that was like the capsule i tell everyone hey

00:56:50.949 --> 00:56:52.909
like this is my capsule of my mental health journey

00:56:52.909 --> 00:56:56.429
and then i started i did some guiding so they

00:56:56.429 --> 00:56:57.730
don't really call instructors they call them

00:56:57.730 --> 00:56:59.710
guiding and i guided with two other individuals

00:56:59.710 --> 00:57:00.829
and they're like hey you need to go to warrior

00:57:00.829 --> 00:57:04.460
path i was like nah that's not for me I didn't

00:57:04.460 --> 00:57:06.559
feel worthy to go. Like, I didn't feel like I

00:57:06.559 --> 00:57:09.119
did enough as far as the combat side of the house.

00:57:09.320 --> 00:57:12.199
Like, no, you need to go. And I went through

00:57:12.199 --> 00:57:14.539
that and man, I was like struggle on steroids.

00:57:14.599 --> 00:57:17.619
And it was absolutely phenomenal. Like that one

00:57:17.619 --> 00:57:19.820
really pushed me over the edge from the things

00:57:19.820 --> 00:57:21.539
I learned. And the biggest takeaway from the

00:57:21.539 --> 00:57:23.920
struggle, well, they do this really cool thing

00:57:23.920 --> 00:57:27.219
where they, they put up a graph and they're like,

00:57:27.340 --> 00:57:30.340
Hey, in your job. So if I were to ask you, James,

00:57:30.650 --> 00:57:32.489
In your job as a firefighter, do you think it

00:57:32.489 --> 00:57:35.989
was good to be hypervigilant and understand your

00:57:35.989 --> 00:57:37.389
surroundings and have situational awareness?

00:57:38.010 --> 00:57:41.849
Yes. Yes. Is it good to have attention to detail,

00:57:42.090 --> 00:57:43.809
you know, making sure your hose lays are good

00:57:43.809 --> 00:57:46.929
to go, making sure your air pack is above 40?

00:57:47.030 --> 00:57:49.389
Yes. And, you know, things like that. Boom, boom,

00:57:49.409 --> 00:57:51.630
boom. Is it good to have all these things? Like,

00:57:51.710 --> 00:57:55.010
absolutely. Then they flip the script and then

00:57:55.010 --> 00:58:00.420
they put the DSM -5 symptoms of PTSD. you know

00:58:00.420 --> 00:58:03.119
hyper -visionally um always looking around uh

00:58:03.119 --> 00:58:06.760
easily easily uh upset if something's not correct

00:58:06.760 --> 00:58:09.360
all these things are like holy so they made a

00:58:09.360 --> 00:58:12.500
parody of like this is the training you got to

00:58:12.500 --> 00:58:16.639
do your job and this is how you it bleeds over

00:58:16.639 --> 00:58:18.619
to your everyday life and you need to install

00:58:18.619 --> 00:58:21.440
a dimmer switch of when to turn that on and off

00:58:21.440 --> 00:58:23.579
instead instead of just on off when can you turn

00:58:23.579 --> 00:58:26.360
it up and turn it down and then they go into

00:58:26.360 --> 00:58:30.429
how you're training growing up Like, were you

00:58:30.429 --> 00:58:33.010
trained to shut up and color in your house because

00:58:33.010 --> 00:58:35.550
you were scared? Were you trained to be overly

00:58:35.550 --> 00:58:37.230
aggressive because of the neighborhood you grew

00:58:37.230 --> 00:58:40.050
up in? Like, was it feast or famine? Did you

00:58:40.050 --> 00:58:42.690
have to be the strong one to fight? Well, that's

00:58:42.690 --> 00:58:44.409
your training. So nothing's good, nothing's bad.

00:58:44.489 --> 00:58:46.610
It's just how you were trained. And now once

00:58:46.610 --> 00:58:48.349
you get an understanding of how you were trained,

00:58:48.469 --> 00:58:52.150
both professionally and in your childhood, then

00:58:52.150 --> 00:58:54.010
you can understand why these things happen and

00:58:54.010 --> 00:58:56.409
install that dimmer switch. And that was remarkable

00:58:56.409 --> 00:59:00.809
for me, just that little exercise. Incredible.

00:59:00.809 --> 00:59:02.869
Talk to me a little bit more about unpacking

00:59:02.869 --> 00:59:05.510
your childhood. I think one of the mistakes that

00:59:05.510 --> 00:59:08.190
a lot of the general conversation make is, oh,

00:59:08.210 --> 00:59:10.489
PTSD. Oh, it's because you had that call, you

00:59:10.489 --> 00:59:12.489
know, that decapitated child, that gangbanger,

00:59:12.510 --> 00:59:15.949
whatever it was. And when you actually dive in,

00:59:15.969 --> 00:59:18.650
as you have done into this world, you realize

00:59:18.650 --> 00:59:22.409
that, you know, for example, the ACEs, the Adverse

00:59:22.409 --> 00:59:26.349
Childhood Experience score, excuse me. A lot

00:59:26.349 --> 00:59:29.050
of us supposedly are at six out of 10. A lot

00:59:29.050 --> 00:59:31.070
of the incarcerated population are at six out

00:59:31.070 --> 00:59:32.809
of 10. You know, there's that crossroads for

00:59:32.809 --> 00:59:35.769
us. So understanding that a lot of the reasons

00:59:35.769 --> 00:59:38.289
that we even put the uniform on are because of

00:59:38.289 --> 00:59:41.329
our childhood, which I would argue is great if

00:59:41.329 --> 00:59:43.929
you've processed those traumas, not so good if

00:59:43.929 --> 00:59:46.269
you've kind of stuffed them down. So what was

00:59:46.269 --> 00:59:48.090
some of the aha moments? Because you've touched

00:59:48.090 --> 00:59:49.469
on it a couple of times that that was really

00:59:49.469 --> 00:59:52.590
when you kind of were looking that far back as

00:59:52.590 --> 00:59:55.239
far as being being. taking the spotlight off

00:59:55.239 --> 00:59:57.619
your career and actually shining it to your formative

00:59:57.619 --> 01:00:01.579
years yeah absolutely that was the most incredible

01:00:01.579 --> 01:00:04.320
thing because all those those calls were bad

01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:06.719
right they didn't i guess they didn't have the

01:00:06.719 --> 01:00:08.239
impact that i thought they would have on me especially

01:00:08.239 --> 01:00:10.179
when i didn't before i had my daughter i remember

01:00:10.179 --> 01:00:14.539
going on uh on um pete's calls and like hey i'll

01:00:14.539 --> 01:00:15.960
i'll take care of it doesn't bother me i don't

01:00:15.960 --> 01:00:18.480
have kids and i thought being numb was my superpower

01:00:18.480 --> 01:00:22.449
like it helped a lot uh quite actually so what

01:00:22.449 --> 01:00:24.949
made me realize that it's more than just the

01:00:24.949 --> 01:00:29.849
calls or in our duty was uh i was doing studies

01:00:29.849 --> 01:00:31.670
for social work one study was talking about combat

01:00:31.670 --> 01:00:34.090
veterans marines and they they talked about how

01:00:34.090 --> 01:00:37.530
like hey i was doing my job in combat that's

01:00:37.530 --> 01:00:38.989
not the problem because that's when they start

01:00:38.989 --> 01:00:40.909
figuring out like no it's the childhood thing

01:00:40.909 --> 01:00:42.570
and much like you said there was a study that

01:00:42.570 --> 01:00:44.769
was brought up at warrior path where the majority

01:00:44.769 --> 01:00:48.659
of people that enlist have the high ACEs scores.

01:00:49.139 --> 01:00:51.139
Majority of first responders have the high ACEs

01:00:51.139 --> 01:00:54.880
scores because they want to, whether it's consciously

01:00:54.880 --> 01:00:57.139
or subconsciously, they want to go into an environment

01:00:57.139 --> 01:00:58.880
to protect others because they were not protected

01:00:58.880 --> 01:01:03.179
themselves. So yes, we sign up for trauma when

01:01:03.179 --> 01:01:06.800
we do these jobs. And yes, in a typical life,

01:01:06.960 --> 01:01:09.659
you'll see your grandparents pass away, your

01:01:09.659 --> 01:01:12.530
parents pass away, maybe your brother. brother

01:01:12.530 --> 01:01:16.010
sister maybe uncle and down the line like a parent

01:01:16.010 --> 01:01:17.869
should never bury their child so on and so forth

01:01:17.869 --> 01:01:20.250
but in the first responder world military world

01:01:20.250 --> 01:01:21.670
you're going to see all that trauma like within

01:01:21.670 --> 01:01:26.889
a year like maybe five times over but um going

01:01:26.889 --> 01:01:30.030
back to the the childhood thing so in struggle

01:01:30.030 --> 01:01:31.949
while they talked about they have this tony robbins

01:01:31.949 --> 01:01:33.530
video and it said uh if you're going to blame

01:01:33.530 --> 01:01:34.969
him for all the bad you got to blame him for

01:01:34.969 --> 01:01:38.329
all the good and and that helped and then there

01:01:38.329 --> 01:01:41.500
was also uh unpacking your rucksack like figuring

01:01:41.500 --> 01:01:43.880
out the goodness out of the bad things that happened

01:01:43.880 --> 01:01:46.880
so they talked about that and that's when i started

01:01:46.880 --> 01:01:50.119
reflecting back because when i was gosh i think

01:01:50.119 --> 01:01:52.480
it was like eight or nine i remember um going

01:01:52.480 --> 01:01:54.920
down the street and playing street fighter video

01:01:54.920 --> 01:01:57.559
games tournaments like i was awesome at it you

01:01:57.559 --> 01:02:01.559
know all day and out of nowhere the uh one of

01:02:01.559 --> 01:02:03.239
my friends was like hey come over here and he

01:02:03.239 --> 01:02:05.300
showed me a gun showed me a revolver explained

01:02:05.300 --> 01:02:07.079
i have any revolvers better because it holds

01:02:07.079 --> 01:02:09.510
the shells and then showed me crack and then

01:02:09.510 --> 01:02:13.150
um uh sold it to the neighbor we watched the

01:02:13.150 --> 01:02:15.570
neighborhood hide like their mom and it was pretty

01:02:15.570 --> 01:02:17.989
bad experience fast forward like a week later

01:02:17.989 --> 01:02:21.309
there was a uh the older brother came back from

01:02:21.309 --> 01:02:23.150
jail he's like oh you think that's funny i'm

01:02:23.150 --> 01:02:25.070
gonna show you what jails look like and i was

01:02:25.070 --> 01:02:28.710
sexually assaulted at a young age and and uh

01:02:28.710 --> 01:02:31.969
that struggle well made me realize like oh um

01:02:31.969 --> 01:02:34.449
maybe that's why i never sold drugs maybe that's

01:02:34.449 --> 01:02:36.369
why i never did anything illegal because i remember

01:02:36.369 --> 01:02:39.130
my answer when hey, do you want to sell this

01:02:39.130 --> 01:02:40.849
stuff that fell off a truck? Do you want to sell

01:02:40.849 --> 01:02:42.289
those drugs? Do you want to do this, do that?

01:02:42.469 --> 01:02:43.550
And I was like, no, I don't want to go to jail.

01:02:43.690 --> 01:02:45.849
So it's like peeling back that I was like, oh,

01:02:45.889 --> 01:02:48.269
that's a gem I could find out of that rock is

01:02:48.269 --> 01:02:51.070
that really crappy thing happened to me, but

01:02:51.070 --> 01:02:53.050
it prevented me from doing things to go to jail

01:02:53.050 --> 01:02:54.489
because I was scared to death to go to jail because

01:02:54.489 --> 01:02:57.750
of that experience. So learning that and then

01:02:57.750 --> 01:03:01.570
Warrior Path may help me process my brother's

01:03:01.570 --> 01:03:04.690
death as well and made me realize like that was.

01:03:05.199 --> 01:03:07.360
the focal point of all this childhood stuff.

01:03:07.619 --> 01:03:11.360
So now when I go back to the firehouse in Maine,

01:03:11.400 --> 01:03:14.719
now with my work in the military, I'm like, I

01:03:14.719 --> 01:03:17.500
have all these wellness practices. I have a solid

01:03:17.500 --> 01:03:20.659
understanding of why certain things trigger me,

01:03:20.699 --> 01:03:23.099
why certain things are upsetting to me because

01:03:23.099 --> 01:03:25.260
of the past. And now I'm able to process it a

01:03:25.260 --> 01:03:27.059
little better as opposed to pointing fingers.

01:03:28.219 --> 01:03:30.099
And another thing it did for me is it made me

01:03:30.099 --> 01:03:31.800
realize that, you know, I had a lot of shame

01:03:31.800 --> 01:03:34.079
and guilt. I did a lot of bad things that people

01:03:34.079 --> 01:03:36.480
i cared about i you know i'm really good at isolating

01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:38.960
and shutting people off and all the things those

01:03:38.960 --> 01:03:42.880
are all just deep defense mechanisms and it taught

01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:45.320
me not to do that and taught me to get away from

01:03:45.320 --> 01:03:48.500
that and and to really uh build that trust and

01:03:48.500 --> 01:03:51.059
connection and have some good friends so i mean

01:03:51.059 --> 01:03:55.219
it just all like just came together and and really

01:03:55.219 --> 01:03:58.300
yeah the childhood stuff was a a big deal to

01:03:58.300 --> 01:04:00.579
process all that and get me to a better place

01:04:00.579 --> 01:04:05.239
and i don't i can't i don't think the traumas

01:04:05.239 --> 01:04:08.059
exposed in the firehouse and military were what

01:04:08.059 --> 01:04:10.900
made me do bad decisions i think those were crutches

01:04:10.900 --> 01:04:12.840
because i could also use as a crutch like hey

01:04:12.840 --> 01:04:15.260
i'm treating you bad because i had it bad or

01:04:15.260 --> 01:04:17.400
i'm getting hammered every night because of this

01:04:17.400 --> 01:04:18.880
and it should be okay you should just leave me

01:04:18.880 --> 01:04:24.400
alone that's that's not the case and yeah just

01:04:24.400 --> 01:04:27.019
figuring out why things what's what where the

01:04:27.019 --> 01:04:29.619
training came from and how to stop it is probably

01:04:29.619 --> 01:04:31.739
the most important things that i've i've learned

01:04:32.719 --> 01:04:37.320
I was really taken aback how many men, especially,

01:04:37.360 --> 01:04:39.760
were sexually abused when they were young on

01:04:39.760 --> 01:04:43.039
this podcast, a lot of them in uniform. I think

01:04:43.039 --> 01:04:47.079
it's woefully underappreciated how frequent it

01:04:47.079 --> 01:04:49.780
is. Obviously, the curtain's being pulled back

01:04:49.780 --> 01:04:52.739
a little bit more, and this sexual predator thing

01:04:52.739 --> 01:04:57.559
has been put into the center stage. Our generation

01:04:57.559 --> 01:05:00.940
and before, like I've heard so many stories of

01:05:00.940 --> 01:05:03.480
men who have been molested, who became firefighters,

01:05:03.719 --> 01:05:06.519
cops, soldiers. And if that is put in, you talk

01:05:06.519 --> 01:05:08.800
about guilt and shame, you know, a lot of them,

01:05:08.800 --> 01:05:10.579
it was only when they realized that they were

01:05:10.579 --> 01:05:12.960
a victim of this. They stopped blaming themselves.

01:05:13.000 --> 01:05:15.340
You know, what did I do? You know, did I, I must've

01:05:15.340 --> 01:05:17.539
been, you know, the reason that they did that.

01:05:17.920 --> 01:05:21.719
No, it's okay to, in that situation, just be

01:05:21.719 --> 01:05:23.840
a victim. You were young, you were preyed upon,

01:05:24.079 --> 01:05:27.400
and this happened. But that is an extremely toxic

01:05:27.400 --> 01:05:29.599
cancer that's buried in that chest for some of

01:05:29.599 --> 01:05:34.400
our men and women. Yeah, absolutely. And going

01:05:34.400 --> 01:05:36.079
through these courses and learning that as well

01:05:36.079 --> 01:05:39.960
and hearing other people's stories. I talked

01:05:39.960 --> 01:05:42.780
to one guy and I was like, it's really shitty,

01:05:42.880 --> 01:05:48.630
but it's also kind of in a weird way. good because

01:05:48.630 --> 01:05:51.090
then you're not alone like you don't wish it

01:05:51.090 --> 01:05:52.650
upon anybody but you also don't want to be the

01:05:52.650 --> 01:05:54.989
only one like it's just kind of a weird dynamic

01:05:54.989 --> 01:05:59.289
right like it it helps i think both both of us

01:05:59.289 --> 01:06:01.489
heal and like hey we're not the only one and

01:06:01.489 --> 01:06:04.530
and this does happen and like you said you're

01:06:04.530 --> 01:06:07.329
just you're just a little kid like you you look

01:06:07.329 --> 01:06:09.849
back and and that's one thing one of the therapists

01:06:09.849 --> 01:06:11.630
brought up was like you have a scared little

01:06:11.630 --> 01:06:13.510
child inside of you but you're a grown man and

01:06:13.510 --> 01:06:16.739
you're trying to keep both safe and that's a

01:06:16.739 --> 01:06:19.039
very difficult thing to do and just forgiving

01:06:19.039 --> 01:06:20.840
yourself and having that grace like it's not

01:06:20.840 --> 01:06:23.320
your fault it legitimately was not my fault like

01:06:23.320 --> 01:06:25.420
i didn't ask for it and i sure as hell couldn't

01:06:25.420 --> 01:06:27.559
protect myself as a little nine -year -old against

01:06:27.559 --> 01:06:33.280
a huge man so yeah it's it's rough going but

01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:36.480
just facing it facing those demons and getting

01:06:36.480 --> 01:06:37.940
after it and getting after the help and realizing

01:06:37.940 --> 01:06:42.400
you're not alone is powerful absolutely well

01:06:42.400 --> 01:06:45.300
another area that that i talk about a lot now

01:06:45.300 --> 01:06:47.000
because i think it's so important and obviously

01:06:47.000 --> 01:06:49.380
most of the guests that have come on here are

01:06:49.380 --> 01:06:52.599
an example of this when we talk about mental

01:06:52.599 --> 01:06:55.400
health in our profession i feel like we've just

01:06:55.400 --> 01:06:57.719
got stuck on the stigma oh we've got to smash

01:06:57.719 --> 01:07:00.260
the stigma well that doesn't mean anything of

01:07:00.260 --> 01:07:02.940
course you know don't don't shame someone who's

01:07:02.940 --> 01:07:05.400
struggling but there's so much more of this conversation

01:07:05.400 --> 01:07:10.119
than that i think where there's real um you know,

01:07:10.119 --> 01:07:13.300
hope there's almost excitement is the post -traumatic

01:07:13.300 --> 01:07:16.219
growth going through this, this unique toolbox

01:07:16.219 --> 01:07:19.079
that each one of us puts together, whether it's,

01:07:19.099 --> 01:07:21.719
you know, Boulder Crest Struggle Well and EMDR

01:07:21.719 --> 01:07:24.739
and psychedelics and, you know, canine therapy

01:07:24.739 --> 01:07:27.780
or whatever that unique cocktail is for you.

01:07:28.659 --> 01:07:31.480
The incredible growth that I see these men and

01:07:31.480 --> 01:07:34.039
women have. And just like you said, this happened

01:07:34.039 --> 01:07:36.400
to me and this happened to me and this call shook

01:07:36.400 --> 01:07:40.719
me. I did this work and now I found value in

01:07:40.719 --> 01:07:43.039
each of these. And I think, you know, like the

01:07:43.039 --> 01:07:47.659
Japanese analogy, they fix the pottery with the

01:07:47.659 --> 01:07:50.000
gold glue. I think that's it. I think there's

01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:54.059
a lot of hope in simply doing the work and realizing

01:07:54.059 --> 01:07:56.579
the other side is worth it. Like you will be

01:07:56.579 --> 01:07:59.559
a better version of yourself, a better firefighter,

01:07:59.559 --> 01:08:02.639
a better father, a better husband or wife. So

01:08:02.639 --> 01:08:04.679
talk to me about that part. You know, when you

01:08:04.679 --> 01:08:07.389
reflect back to when you were struggling, you

01:08:07.389 --> 01:08:09.610
know who are you today and let's and let's kind

01:08:09.610 --> 01:08:11.789
of you know unpack post -traumatic growth a little

01:08:11.789 --> 01:08:15.050
bit more yeah the kintsugi ball that's a really

01:08:15.050 --> 01:08:17.630
cool analogy i love that one i think the biggest

01:08:17.630 --> 01:08:19.649
one that that was taught in both programs was

01:08:19.649 --> 01:08:22.250
the just the trust and connection because in

01:08:22.250 --> 01:08:25.890
both programs you do share and and like you said

01:08:25.890 --> 01:08:27.529
you feel like you're gonna get judged and you

01:08:27.529 --> 01:08:28.729
feel like you're gonna get shunned and people

01:08:28.729 --> 01:08:30.930
are gonna turn their back on you and if they

01:08:30.930 --> 01:08:32.390
really care about you that's not gonna happen

01:08:32.390 --> 01:08:35.890
and hell even in those to uh experiences i had

01:08:35.890 --> 01:08:38.949
just met these people and when everybody shared

01:08:38.949 --> 01:08:42.210
all all that was said was thank you for sharing

01:08:42.210 --> 01:08:44.909
there was no advice given there was no blame

01:08:44.909 --> 01:08:47.710
given i mean even right now i could have told

01:08:47.710 --> 01:08:50.770
you all all this stuff and historically right

01:08:50.770 --> 01:08:52.609
like oh you went through all that you could have

01:08:52.609 --> 01:08:54.529
just responded with well just suck it up man

01:08:54.529 --> 01:08:56.670
you're good now like you got a good family you

01:08:56.670 --> 01:08:58.810
got a good job like what's the problem like uh

01:08:58.810 --> 01:09:01.430
it's more than that that's that's just the facade

01:09:01.430 --> 01:09:04.270
i put on that's my instagram reel i want you

01:09:04.270 --> 01:09:05.630
to see all the highlights but there's a lot more

01:09:05.630 --> 01:09:08.890
going on because again that could turn into an

01:09:08.890 --> 01:09:10.590
addiction of like why i need to be successful

01:09:10.590 --> 01:09:14.130
to hide all this other stuff so really just the

01:09:14.130 --> 01:09:16.210
vulnerability and i remember doing it uh with

01:09:16.210 --> 01:09:18.449
one of my crews one time i was like i don't know

01:09:18.449 --> 01:09:20.289
how this is gonna work but i'm just gonna be

01:09:20.289 --> 01:09:22.149
super vulnerable around the dinner table and

01:09:22.149 --> 01:09:24.250
tell them how i feel about these certain calls

01:09:24.250 --> 01:09:26.930
and see what happens and holy cow did that just

01:09:26.930 --> 01:09:29.090
open up the conversation and we became a super

01:09:29.090 --> 01:09:30.829
tight crew and that was incredible i was like

01:09:30.829 --> 01:09:33.970
oh It actually works. Like people want to hear

01:09:33.970 --> 01:09:38.090
everyone's stories. And it's just the problem

01:09:38.090 --> 01:09:40.750
of like, I got to be strong. I got to be, I got

01:09:40.750 --> 01:09:42.289
to be trusted. I'm not going to be trusted if

01:09:42.289 --> 01:09:45.470
I'm weak. And that's not true at all. So that's

01:09:45.470 --> 01:09:47.649
the biggest thing I learned is like, I can still

01:09:47.649 --> 01:09:50.170
go out and run a fire and I can still have it

01:09:50.170 --> 01:09:52.829
affect me a certain way and just be open about

01:09:52.829 --> 01:09:55.630
it. I can still run a bad medical call and let's,

01:09:55.630 --> 01:09:57.390
let's dope it out and talk about it. Let's not

01:09:57.390 --> 01:10:01.109
just bury it. I feel so much more present with

01:10:01.109 --> 01:10:03.489
my family. I feel present myself. I've forgiven

01:10:03.489 --> 01:10:07.689
myself. I'm open to hear other people's stories

01:10:07.689 --> 01:10:12.369
and and a lot less judging as well. Like you

01:10:12.369 --> 01:10:14.350
don't know what people are going through. And

01:10:14.350 --> 01:10:16.270
just understanding that, you know, being on your

01:10:16.270 --> 01:10:18.829
phone or hitting people up on text, that's not

01:10:18.829 --> 01:10:20.909
the way to do it. You got to actually talk and

01:10:20.909 --> 01:10:24.569
connect and be with people and and get past that

01:10:24.569 --> 01:10:27.569
service level. conversations just open yourself

01:10:27.569 --> 01:10:30.050
up that's how you're going to create deep conversations

01:10:30.050 --> 01:10:32.210
if we just sat here and talked about you know

01:10:32.210 --> 01:10:33.989
sports scores in the weather all day no one's

01:10:33.989 --> 01:10:36.090
going to listen to that no one cares we're not

01:10:36.090 --> 01:10:39.149
getting after uh what it means to be a human

01:10:39.149 --> 01:10:41.930
not and forget about man a woman this that and

01:10:41.930 --> 01:10:43.890
the other it's it's about human human connection

01:10:43.890 --> 01:10:48.010
that's why fire isn't so so important you know

01:10:48.010 --> 01:10:50.409
come together at the the bonfire and share your

01:10:50.409 --> 01:10:55.130
feelings and whatnot so from where i was to where

01:10:55.130 --> 01:10:57.689
i'm at where i was i was the fun loving party

01:10:57.689 --> 01:11:00.529
drinker let's get after it but then i was home

01:11:00.529 --> 01:11:05.090
alone i was a mess now i whom i'm good by myself

01:11:05.090 --> 01:11:08.810
and good with others and that's a great feeling

01:11:08.810 --> 01:11:11.109
of not feeling lonely when i am by myself and

01:11:11.109 --> 01:11:14.710
just being trying to stop that trauma line for

01:11:14.710 --> 01:11:17.789
my daughter as much as i can and just be a a

01:11:17.789 --> 01:11:19.449
better person for myself and others like i can't

01:11:19.449 --> 01:11:21.989
help anybody else i don't help myself Absolutely.

01:11:22.310 --> 01:11:24.529
It's funny, I've been reflecting on courage and

01:11:24.529 --> 01:11:26.909
cowardice a lot recently, I just posted an article,

01:11:27.010 --> 01:11:29.949
which I'm sure, I'm sure upset some people, but

01:11:29.949 --> 01:11:31.689
that's because they probably see themselves in

01:11:31.689 --> 01:11:34.909
it. But if you actually think about, and again,

01:11:34.970 --> 01:11:37.710
I'm six years removed now, but what I'm assuming

01:11:37.710 --> 01:11:40.350
is probably still continuing to get better, which

01:11:40.350 --> 01:11:43.529
is, you know, the safety as far as a fireside,

01:11:43.569 --> 01:11:48.489
and the more infrequent that a lot of house fires

01:11:48.489 --> 01:11:52.170
are coming. If you think about a firefighter's

01:11:52.170 --> 01:11:55.649
24 hours, how often do we actually have to be

01:11:55.649 --> 01:11:58.890
courageous operationally, running into a school

01:11:58.890 --> 01:12:01.069
shooting, you know, going through a second floor

01:12:01.069 --> 01:12:03.590
window and a VES search for a kid that you know

01:12:03.590 --> 01:12:06.909
is in there? It's hardly ever. We train for it

01:12:06.909 --> 01:12:10.670
and rightly so, but it's hardly ever. Where there's

01:12:10.670 --> 01:12:13.829
courage, where we really need people to be that

01:12:13.829 --> 01:12:16.689
brave man or woman is courageous vulnerability,

01:12:17.130 --> 01:12:19.689
having the courage to actually open up, talk

01:12:19.689 --> 01:12:22.260
about, you know, Not just struggling, just talking

01:12:22.260 --> 01:12:25.699
about how fucking awful that call was. And not

01:12:25.699 --> 01:12:28.000
even so much the victim, but the shrieks of the

01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:29.979
family when we pulled that yellow sheet over

01:12:29.979 --> 01:12:31.380
them. You know what I mean? Those kind of things.

01:12:31.739 --> 01:12:35.020
And also the courage of advocating for an environment

01:12:35.020 --> 01:12:39.279
that supports you. Because if we're just identifying

01:12:39.279 --> 01:12:42.199
as the sooty -faced, mustachioed firefighter

01:12:42.199 --> 01:12:45.479
leaning on a pike pole, that's a once in a blue

01:12:45.479 --> 01:12:48.029
moon that you truly, truly get to do that. But

01:12:48.029 --> 01:12:50.710
every single day you get to be courageous advocating

01:12:50.710 --> 01:12:53.729
for your family's health and you get to be courageous

01:12:53.729 --> 01:12:58.149
by opening the doors for others to talk by you

01:12:58.149 --> 01:13:01.829
being vulnerable. Yeah, absolutely. That's what

01:13:01.829 --> 01:13:04.010
I'm really proud of. My fire district is they

01:13:04.010 --> 01:13:05.770
have adopted the struggle. Well, it's really

01:13:05.770 --> 01:13:08.770
cool. Every class is opened up with our fire

01:13:08.770 --> 01:13:12.149
chief telling his story in front of everybody.

01:13:12.229 --> 01:13:16.060
So it's twofold, right? you can be in a position

01:13:16.060 --> 01:13:17.739
of power and still be vulnerable you don't have

01:13:17.739 --> 01:13:20.579
to keep a mask on to to make rank and be quote

01:13:20.579 --> 01:13:23.800
unquote successful but also it also also opens

01:13:23.800 --> 01:13:26.060
the doors like look the fire chief just spilled

01:13:26.060 --> 01:13:28.979
his guts everyone else can too this is a place

01:13:28.979 --> 01:13:33.739
of trust and yeah i think it's easier to um you

01:13:33.739 --> 01:13:35.859
see in the struggle well courses and i've heard

01:13:35.859 --> 01:13:37.939
it from other guys it's it's a little easier

01:13:37.939 --> 01:13:39.819
for the firefighters to talk they want to talk

01:13:39.819 --> 01:13:43.270
they want to open up about these things i i worry

01:13:43.270 --> 01:13:45.569
about sometimes our police brothers and sisters

01:13:45.569 --> 01:13:48.210
because they're mostly alone they're in their

01:13:48.210 --> 01:13:50.390
squad cars by themselves at least we're either

01:13:50.390 --> 01:13:53.569
on a ambo with another person or in the in the

01:13:53.569 --> 01:13:56.189
engine talking it out and i think it's imperative

01:13:56.189 --> 01:13:58.930
for the captains or whoever's leading on the

01:13:58.930 --> 01:14:01.369
box or whoever the leader informal leader or

01:14:01.369 --> 01:14:03.569
leader in the fire station for them to set the

01:14:03.569 --> 01:14:06.210
tone you know you start shutting down these conversations

01:14:06.210 --> 01:14:09.449
and don't let them happen that's It's not going

01:14:09.449 --> 01:14:12.010
to go well at all. And then for the younger guys

01:14:12.010 --> 01:14:14.510
and gals coming up, that's how they're going

01:14:14.510 --> 01:14:15.989
to learn, just like we did. Like, oh, you don't

01:14:15.989 --> 01:14:17.970
talk about that stuff. No, don't bring it up.

01:14:18.310 --> 01:14:20.890
But if right away you're talking about it, opening

01:14:20.890 --> 01:14:23.890
up, advocating for yourself, advocating for the

01:14:23.890 --> 01:14:26.649
crew, advocating for patients, whoever, inviting

01:14:26.649 --> 01:14:29.890
PD over for dinner because they just ran a crappy

01:14:29.890 --> 01:14:31.430
call with you and building those relationships,

01:14:31.550 --> 01:14:33.829
that's so much stronger. It's just like a family

01:14:33.829 --> 01:14:36.970
unit. If you've got a family that you just. One

01:14:36.970 --> 01:14:38.670
person's in each room watching TV and they're

01:14:38.670 --> 01:14:40.350
not talking. That's not going to be a strong

01:14:40.350 --> 01:14:42.350
family. There's no different from the fire service

01:14:42.350 --> 01:14:44.489
as well. Like there's a part of me that wishes

01:14:44.489 --> 01:14:47.149
we could bring back open bay bunks. So we're

01:14:47.149 --> 01:14:51.050
always together, but there's some niceness as

01:14:51.050 --> 01:14:53.789
well as having your own room, but it just has

01:14:53.789 --> 01:14:56.050
to be done. We got to get back to being little

01:14:56.050 --> 01:14:59.250
mini tribes and, and not tribes where we hate

01:14:59.250 --> 01:15:01.649
other people and we're trying to fight, but just

01:15:01.649 --> 01:15:04.119
these little tight knit groups that. you can

01:15:04.119 --> 01:15:06.420
be trusted and have that connection and no one's

01:15:06.420 --> 01:15:08.800
going to burn you like i've never been burned

01:15:08.800 --> 01:15:14.039
i've never been burned for being uh authentic

01:15:14.039 --> 01:15:17.039
and vulnerable as far as like who i am as a person

01:15:17.039 --> 01:15:19.779
my feelings yeah if you mess up on the training

01:15:19.779 --> 01:15:22.720
ground or you do some bonehead thing yeah you're

01:15:22.720 --> 01:15:25.060
gonna get made fun of or second guess but when

01:15:25.060 --> 01:15:28.359
you're no talking about how you feel who you

01:15:28.359 --> 01:15:30.779
are your values and having these deep conversations

01:15:32.329 --> 01:15:35.489
i just don't feel like that's a place anyone's

01:15:35.489 --> 01:15:37.550
going to burn you and it's it's important to

01:15:37.550 --> 01:15:41.590
do yeah where i see the people that do are actually

01:15:41.590 --> 01:15:45.189
the ones that are struggling you know this is

01:15:45.189 --> 01:15:47.789
kind of talking shit the whole time but so again

01:15:47.789 --> 01:15:50.609
it's like you know as i say on here a lot it's

01:15:50.609 --> 01:15:52.750
not my quote but i love it um you know don't

01:15:52.750 --> 01:15:54.850
ask what what's wrong with you ask what happened

01:15:54.850 --> 01:15:58.149
to you And I think that crotchety old fucker

01:15:58.149 --> 01:16:00.649
is probably hurting. He's probably drinking himself

01:16:00.649 --> 01:16:04.630
to sleep every night. So maybe rather than lash

01:16:04.630 --> 01:16:07.810
out at them, kind of start figuring out how can

01:16:07.810 --> 01:16:09.789
you access that person as well. But I mean, the

01:16:09.789 --> 01:16:13.510
firehouse is set up in many, many ways for us

01:16:13.510 --> 01:16:15.390
to be vulnerable, for us to have conversations.

01:16:15.829 --> 01:16:17.789
And if you look at our forefathers, what they

01:16:17.789 --> 01:16:21.390
did well, they had a dog in the station. I don't

01:16:21.390 --> 01:16:23.640
know why we got rid of that. or this bullshit

01:16:23.640 --> 01:16:25.539
lawsuit mentality that we have in this country.

01:16:25.899 --> 01:16:29.079
But then also the dining room table. Like I think

01:16:29.079 --> 01:16:32.100
individual bunks are great, but just have a policy

01:16:32.100 --> 01:16:34.659
where all, you know, there's times where you

01:16:34.659 --> 01:16:36.779
eat together, you sit together, you know, work

01:16:36.779 --> 01:16:38.720
out together, play volleyball, whatever it is.

01:16:38.779 --> 01:16:40.619
And then, yeah, absolutely. Go in your bunk and,

01:16:40.640 --> 01:16:42.680
you know, call your kids. And obviously when

01:16:42.680 --> 01:16:44.579
you sleep, you shouldn't get woken up by other

01:16:44.579 --> 01:16:46.460
rigs that are running. So that's what makes those

01:16:46.460 --> 01:16:49.020
bunks great. But yeah, if you're going to have

01:16:49.020 --> 01:16:51.880
this kind of layout in the station. create a

01:16:51.880 --> 01:16:53.939
culture where during the day you're all together

01:16:53.939 --> 01:16:55.600
because that's what you should be doing and that

01:16:55.600 --> 01:16:57.979
gives you then the opportunity to actually start

01:16:57.979 --> 01:17:00.380
sharing stories and offload some of the stuff

01:17:00.380 --> 01:17:03.560
that you just went through yeah absolutely i

01:17:03.560 --> 01:17:06.020
just went to a teach back for the struggle course

01:17:06.020 --> 01:17:08.180
and it was pretty cool one of the captains was

01:17:08.180 --> 01:17:09.739
uh talking about how they're gonna because they

01:17:09.739 --> 01:17:12.100
i mean there's so many different practices they

01:17:12.100 --> 01:17:14.239
teach you in these courses i mean we could spend

01:17:14.239 --> 01:17:16.560
hours talking about it but one of the things

01:17:16.560 --> 01:17:19.100
he was going to adopt is hey we come back from

01:17:19.100 --> 01:17:21.970
our four days off One of the first things I'm

01:17:21.970 --> 01:17:24.310
asked to cruise is like, how was your week? How's

01:17:24.310 --> 01:17:25.729
your wellness triangle? Cause they talk about

01:17:25.729 --> 01:17:28.289
your wellness triangle, your mind, body, mind,

01:17:28.430 --> 01:17:30.409
body, financial and spirit. How's your triangle

01:17:30.409 --> 01:17:33.529
doing? Is there anything that happened on your

01:17:33.529 --> 01:17:35.289
days off that you want to talk about? Is there

01:17:35.289 --> 01:17:39.270
anything that happened that may affect your performance

01:17:39.270 --> 01:17:41.770
or just how you want to be interacted with? Are

01:17:41.770 --> 01:17:43.489
you on edge? Like, and just going through the

01:17:43.489 --> 01:17:46.739
table and letting them do that because. if a

01:17:46.739 --> 01:17:48.119
lot of people went through the course and they're

01:17:48.119 --> 01:17:50.060
speaking the same language and that's really

01:17:50.060 --> 01:17:52.359
cool and putting gratitude boards up in the in

01:17:52.359 --> 01:17:54.720
the house and i know some of the police stations

01:17:54.720 --> 01:17:57.340
have put gratitude boards up and just simple

01:17:57.340 --> 01:17:59.500
things to put up there and it's a really cool

01:17:59.500 --> 01:18:01.659
uh barometer as well right like if i got a guy

01:18:01.659 --> 01:18:04.359
that or gal that's um every day they put gratitude

01:18:04.359 --> 01:18:07.020
up there or some cool quote and three days in

01:18:07.020 --> 01:18:08.260
a row they don't put anything in there moping

01:18:08.260 --> 01:18:09.859
around i know something happened and we're gonna

01:18:09.859 --> 01:18:13.020
have a conversation it's not a i'm gonna come

01:18:13.020 --> 01:18:14.739
down on you what's going on i need you to perform

01:18:14.739 --> 01:18:17.819
conversation it's gonna be like hey i've noticed

01:18:17.819 --> 01:18:20.380
this how you doing what happened what's going

01:18:20.380 --> 01:18:23.840
on so just meeting everybody with uh with wonder

01:18:23.840 --> 01:18:25.800
instead of questioning like i wonder what's going

01:18:25.800 --> 01:18:28.659
on with them i wonder what happened absolutely

01:18:28.659 --> 01:18:31.260
well you mentioned about your department adopting

01:18:31.260 --> 01:18:35.659
struggle well what does that look like um so

01:18:35.659 --> 01:18:37.340
i don't have all the ins and outs but they're

01:18:37.340 --> 01:18:39.819
they're hosting the struggle well and i think

01:18:39.819 --> 01:18:41.819
their goal i think the ultimate goal is to get

01:18:41.819 --> 01:18:43.279
everybody through but they don't want to push

01:18:43.279 --> 01:18:46.399
it and i can't speak too much on them i'm been

01:18:46.399 --> 01:18:48.939
there but what i've seen and heard is the goal

01:18:48.939 --> 01:18:50.560
is to get everybody through especially those

01:18:50.560 --> 01:18:52.579
that want to get through and the really cool

01:18:52.579 --> 01:18:56.340
thing is they've opened it up so they'll fit

01:18:56.340 --> 01:18:58.100
it with mostly people from the fire district

01:18:58.100 --> 01:19:01.819
but they've opened up to local pd other fire

01:19:01.819 --> 01:19:03.420
and other people that want to get in there too

01:19:03.420 --> 01:19:05.760
so it's just not a hey if you're not a part of

01:19:05.760 --> 01:19:08.199
us you can't get this they see the value in it

01:19:08.199 --> 01:19:09.640
and they want to expose as many people as they

01:19:09.640 --> 01:19:12.539
can to it as well because I was able to sneak

01:19:12.539 --> 01:19:14.640
some of the military members into a few classes,

01:19:14.659 --> 01:19:17.640
and that was very beneficial. Absolutely. Now,

01:19:17.659 --> 01:19:19.579
did you mention that you transitioned back into

01:19:19.579 --> 01:19:24.399
the military for a while? Yes. So I got out of

01:19:24.399 --> 01:19:27.479
active duty in 08, took a little break, and then

01:19:27.479 --> 01:19:29.060
bounced around between the Guard and Reserve.

01:19:30.279 --> 01:19:33.020
So right after my father passed, and this was

01:19:33.020 --> 01:19:35.640
some reflection I did, I realized why I was so

01:19:35.640 --> 01:19:38.859
hesitant to go back to fire, why I isolated from

01:19:38.859 --> 01:19:41.100
the fire service. I was like, oh, I just... I'm

01:19:41.100 --> 01:19:42.699
going to do this military thing and this is what

01:19:42.699 --> 01:19:44.619
I need to be doing. So I was on orders for five

01:19:44.619 --> 01:19:47.800
years and that's coming to an end in May. So

01:19:47.800 --> 01:19:50.659
I'll retire from the Air National Guard and then

01:19:50.659 --> 01:19:53.739
go back to the firehouse in May and do some training.

01:19:54.279 --> 01:19:55.920
However long that's going to take and get back

01:19:55.920 --> 01:19:58.920
on the rig. Brilliant. So a lot of back and forth.

01:19:59.800 --> 01:20:02.060
Beautiful. Well, I want to throw some closing

01:20:02.060 --> 01:20:03.960
questions at you before I let you go if you've

01:20:03.960 --> 01:20:06.899
got time. Yeah, of course. All right. The first

01:20:06.899 --> 01:20:09.140
one I'd love to ask, is there a book or are there

01:20:09.140 --> 01:20:11.659
books that you love to recommend? It can be related

01:20:11.659 --> 01:20:13.899
to our discussion today or completely unrelated.

01:20:14.819 --> 01:20:16.880
Yeah. So shameless plug for you. Definitely the

01:20:16.880 --> 01:20:20.159
kinder book. I mean, that was incredible. I really

01:20:20.159 --> 01:20:22.859
enjoyed that. And I liked our back and forth

01:20:22.859 --> 01:20:25.100
about that. I almost ripped you off if it didn't

01:20:25.100 --> 01:20:29.199
end the way I wanted it to. The Struggle Well

01:20:29.199 --> 01:20:30.880
book, there's actually a Struggle Well book,

01:20:30.960 --> 01:20:33.899
which is pretty incredible. Comfort Crisis is

01:20:33.899 --> 01:20:38.109
great. And then Dr. Edgar, The Gift and The Choice.

01:20:38.289 --> 01:20:40.489
Those are really cool. Talking about the difference

01:20:40.489 --> 01:20:43.229
between being a victim and living in victimhood

01:20:43.229 --> 01:20:45.630
because we're all going to go through something.

01:20:45.750 --> 01:20:47.430
It's just how do we end up on the other side?

01:20:48.510 --> 01:20:50.369
You know, like the fun books that I wrote down

01:20:50.369 --> 01:20:52.869
was like Any Jack Car. Manhunt's pretty cool.

01:20:52.970 --> 01:20:55.149
It's about the assassination of Abraham Lincoln.

01:20:55.329 --> 01:20:58.529
Very detailed. That's a fun one. Never Ending

01:20:58.529 --> 01:21:00.569
Story. I rewatched that movie and realized how

01:21:00.569 --> 01:21:02.390
traumatic that movie is when I was little. And

01:21:02.390 --> 01:21:05.750
that book was pretty cool. Beautiful. So for

01:21:05.750 --> 01:21:07.590
books, that's what I got. And then the Ryan Holiday,

01:21:07.689 --> 01:21:10.369
the stoic one's always good. Well, you mentioned

01:21:10.369 --> 01:21:11.989
Neverending Story, the film. What about other

01:21:11.989 --> 01:21:15.649
films and documentaries that you love? Growing

01:21:15.649 --> 01:21:17.710
Up in Chicago, Last Dance was incredible. You

01:21:17.710 --> 01:21:19.449
know, the Chicago Bulls story, that was cool.

01:21:19.649 --> 01:21:22.350
And I just watched that Unstoppable movie with

01:21:22.350 --> 01:21:25.930
the wrestler from ASU with one leg. That was

01:21:25.930 --> 01:21:28.409
pretty cool. I mean, most of our movies now are

01:21:28.409 --> 01:21:31.689
Moana or Clifford the Big Red Dog and Tumble

01:21:31.689 --> 01:21:35.199
Leaf with my daughter. Not a lot of adult movies

01:21:35.199 --> 01:21:37.800
going on right now. Yeah, I just watched that

01:21:37.800 --> 01:21:40.579
documentary as well. I mean, sorry, The Unstoppable

01:21:40.579 --> 01:21:41.960
as well, and it was amazing. I'm going to see

01:21:41.960 --> 01:21:44.560
if I can get the actual guy on the show. Oh,

01:21:44.579 --> 01:21:47.119
that'd be cool. That'd be really cool. All right,

01:21:47.159 --> 01:21:48.880
well, speaking of amazing people, is there a

01:21:48.880 --> 01:21:51.100
person that you recommend to come on this podcast

01:21:51.100 --> 01:21:53.479
as a guest to speak to the first responders,

01:21:53.739 --> 01:21:55.920
military, and associated professions of the world?

01:21:56.819 --> 01:21:59.479
Oh, man, I'd have to throw out probably Ken Falk,

01:21:59.520 --> 01:22:02.899
the founder of Older Crest Foundation. that would

01:22:02.899 --> 01:22:05.760
probably be really cool. Some of the people that

01:22:05.760 --> 01:22:07.960
I've guided with and that I've been involved

01:22:07.960 --> 01:22:10.819
with Boulder Crest and struggle well, some of

01:22:10.819 --> 01:22:13.319
those guides would be pretty powerful because

01:22:13.319 --> 01:22:14.859
there's some police, there's some military and

01:22:14.859 --> 01:22:19.899
fire. It's a good mix. If able, Dr. Tedeschi

01:22:19.899 --> 01:22:23.020
and Dr. Calhoun, the ones that coined PTG and

01:22:23.020 --> 01:22:27.119
started that academic research. as well that

01:22:27.119 --> 01:22:29.000
would be pretty cool to hear their story because

01:22:29.000 --> 01:22:31.760
it's an incredible program it did a lot for me

01:22:31.760 --> 01:22:35.279
beautiful all right well then the last question

01:22:35.279 --> 01:22:36.880
before we make sure everyone knows where to find

01:22:36.880 --> 01:22:39.899
you and boulder crest what do you do to decompress

01:22:39.899 --> 01:22:43.880
oh so i just started uh jiu jitsu about two years

01:22:43.880 --> 01:22:45.800
ago that's been incredible i was scared to death

01:22:45.800 --> 01:22:47.359
to do it i've wanted to do it for a long time

01:22:47.359 --> 01:22:50.760
and so that's been really helpful hiking rucking

01:22:50.760 --> 01:22:54.920
uh working out so most of the things i do to

01:22:54.920 --> 01:22:57.539
decompress a lot of daddy daughter time time

01:22:57.539 --> 01:23:00.520
with the family so that's very helpful meditation

01:23:00.520 --> 01:23:02.699
all the stuff i learned through warrior path

01:23:02.699 --> 01:23:08.119
and uh struggle well journaling brilliant all

01:23:08.119 --> 01:23:09.779
right well then for people listening if they

01:23:09.779 --> 01:23:12.699
want to reach out to you or find you online where

01:23:12.699 --> 01:23:16.680
are the best places for that uh probably nowhere

01:23:16.680 --> 01:23:18.640
to be quite honest i don't i don't follow my

01:23:18.640 --> 01:23:21.399
social media anymore i don't have any big platforms

01:23:22.690 --> 01:23:25.189
If for some random reason someone wanted to talk

01:23:25.189 --> 01:23:27.210
to me, I guess they could reach out to you and

01:23:27.210 --> 01:23:30.390
get my email. But yeah, that's a tough one. I

01:23:30.390 --> 01:23:32.970
don't feel that I'm that special. I'm still super

01:23:32.970 --> 01:23:36.489
honored to be here. And yeah, I don't really

01:23:36.489 --> 01:23:39.550
have a big platform. Like, hey, come find me.

01:23:40.310 --> 01:23:41.729
Yeah, well, it doesn't matter at all. I mean,

01:23:41.810 --> 01:23:43.590
that's good. It's funny because I was doing research

01:23:43.590 --> 01:23:46.079
before. before the show and i'm like oh shit

01:23:46.079 --> 01:23:48.560
i actually don't know much about tony's tony's

01:23:48.560 --> 01:23:50.720
life because most people have a linkedin or something

01:23:50.720 --> 01:23:53.260
but i mean for us in the fire service you know

01:23:53.260 --> 01:23:54.479
what's the point you're not really trying to

01:23:54.479 --> 01:23:55.779
sell anything you know what i mean you're not

01:23:55.779 --> 01:23:59.220
networking in business so so yeah um what about

01:23:59.220 --> 01:24:01.819
boulder crest uh struggle well warrior's path

01:24:01.819 --> 01:24:03.659
where are the best kind of places to find those

01:24:03.659 --> 01:24:07.460
yeah just i think just google boulder crest it's

01:24:07.460 --> 01:24:09.100
all under there google struggle well warrior

01:24:09.100 --> 01:24:11.420
path or boulder crest and all the information's

01:24:11.420 --> 01:24:13.960
on there um you know to apply for warrior path

01:24:13.960 --> 01:24:17.000
and then so another one so the warrior path is

01:24:17.000 --> 01:24:19.460
mostly focused around veterans but then they

01:24:19.460 --> 01:24:21.819
have the struggle well experience which is for

01:24:21.819 --> 01:24:24.180
first responders so kind of same thing with different

01:24:24.180 --> 01:24:27.079
cohort because it's very tight -knit group there's

01:24:27.079 --> 01:24:30.460
eight of us in the course and we're still every

01:24:30.460 --> 01:24:33.060
day we talk on signal and it's uh the cool thing

01:24:33.060 --> 01:24:35.640
about the warrior path and struggle well experience

01:24:35.640 --> 01:24:38.539
is it's not a catch and release it's a five to

01:24:38.539 --> 01:24:40.979
seven day in person and then it's still another

01:24:41.840 --> 01:24:45.939
90 days after that where you have biweekly meetings

01:24:45.939 --> 01:24:48.500
with your team and daily homework. So it's a

01:24:48.500 --> 01:24:50.739
very long process, which is very helpful. So

01:24:50.739 --> 01:24:55.180
just Google those and then struggle well. You

01:24:55.180 --> 01:24:57.460
can Google that one as well. And that one's more

01:24:57.460 --> 01:25:00.560
of the five day in person that's hosted by an

01:25:00.560 --> 01:25:03.220
agency. So if your local agency is doing it,

01:25:03.279 --> 01:25:06.399
get after it. If something you want to do, pitch

01:25:06.399 --> 01:25:09.319
it. There's plenty of POCs on there of like how

01:25:09.319 --> 01:25:12.220
to how to get it. to your organization you know

01:25:12.220 --> 01:25:14.880
i know they go out and do i think they call it

01:25:14.880 --> 01:25:18.600
executive days one and two day exposure to the

01:25:18.600 --> 01:25:21.520
uh the decision makers and show them what it's

01:25:21.520 --> 01:25:23.880
all about and it goes from there but definitely

01:25:23.880 --> 01:25:26.899
powerful brilliant Well, mate, I want to say

01:25:26.899 --> 01:25:29.720
thank you so much. I mean, not only for talking

01:25:29.720 --> 01:25:31.960
about, you know, Struggle Well and Boulder Crest

01:25:31.960 --> 01:25:34.619
and all these solutions, these tools that people

01:25:34.619 --> 01:25:37.180
can add again to their toolbox and kudos to your

01:25:37.180 --> 01:25:39.000
department for actually bringing that in themselves,

01:25:39.079 --> 01:25:42.439
but also to underline your courageous vulnerability

01:25:42.439 --> 01:25:45.609
for going to these places. and opening the door

01:25:45.609 --> 01:25:48.649
and talking about these traumas that you had

01:25:48.649 --> 01:25:50.810
early and then this incredible strength that

01:25:50.810 --> 01:25:52.550
you've gleaned from them now working through.

01:25:52.789 --> 01:25:54.989
So I want to thank you so, so much for being

01:25:54.989 --> 01:25:56.930
so generous with your time and coming on the

01:25:56.930 --> 01:26:00.189
Behind the Shield podcast today. Yeah, appreciate

01:26:00.189 --> 01:26:01.770
it, brother. Hopefully I didn't disappoint. This

01:26:01.770 --> 01:26:04.449
was a fantastic opportunity. I'm just glad to

01:26:04.449 --> 01:26:07.090
have this time with you and tell a story. Hopefully

01:26:07.090 --> 01:26:11.149
you can help somebody. We all got something going

01:26:11.149 --> 01:26:13.939
on. I know from the outside, they look at me

01:26:13.939 --> 01:26:15.739
like successful in the military, wearing the

01:26:15.739 --> 01:26:17.140
red helmet, like, oh, that guy's got his shit

01:26:17.140 --> 01:26:20.300
together. It couldn't be further from the truth.

01:26:20.420 --> 01:26:23.600
It was a nice mask I wore for a long time, and

01:26:23.600 --> 01:26:26.500
I'm ready to peel it back and be open and help

01:26:26.500 --> 01:26:29.380
anybody that's willing to get that help. At the

01:26:29.380 --> 01:26:32.079
end of the day, we're all going to experience

01:26:32.079 --> 01:26:35.920
something bad, and you can call it big T's, little

01:26:35.920 --> 01:26:38.659
t's, whatever name you want to put on it. How

01:26:38.659 --> 01:26:40.399
do we overcome it? And we're all strong enough

01:26:40.399 --> 01:26:42.939
to do that. I mean, that's why we're human. And

01:26:42.939 --> 01:26:46.279
we've all survived 100 % of our trauma so far.

01:26:46.439 --> 01:26:49.560
So there's light at the end of the tunnel. Some

01:26:49.560 --> 01:26:52.300
tunnels are longer than others, but keep pressing.

01:26:52.420 --> 01:26:54.960
You can get through it. It's a lot of work, but

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it's worth it to live the good life that we deserve.