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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you
think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome
to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,
my name is James Gearing and this week it is
my absolute honor to welcome on the show firefighter
and Air National Guardsman Tony Marquez. Now
in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics
from his journey into the fire service, the parallel
path into the military, notable calls, and then
in my opinion, the most powerful part of his
story, his mental health journey. For people
who listen to this podcast a lot, you've probably
heard Boulder Crest and the Struggle Well program
mentioned many times. Well, Tony takes a deep
dive into that program, his experience through
Warrior Path, which is the military arm of that,
and details the incredible healing power he found
through those programs. Now, before we get to
this incredible conversation, as I say every
week, please just take a moment, go to whichever
app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show.
Leave feedback and leave a rating. Every single
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therefore making it easier for others to find.
And this is a free library of well over 1 ,000
episodes now. So all I ask in return is that
you help share these incredible men and women's
stories so I can get them to every single person
on planet Earth who needs to hear them. And one
more note, I was sick as a dog with a cold when
I did this interview, so I apologize for my voice.
That being said, I introduce to you, Tony Marquez.
Enjoy. Well, Tony, I want to start by saying
thank you so, so much for taking the time and
coming on the Behind the Shield podcast today.
Oh, man, it's a pleasure. It's wild to be here.
We were just discussing before we got on here
that I reached out to you, I don't know, five,
six years ago, just random comments on Instagram.
And I was like, oh, there's no way this guy's
going to reply. And then we started chatting
it up for a little bit, lost touch, and got in
touch again. And here we are. Pretty cool. yeah
no it's funny because people you know there's
this almost perception i think when you have
a platform that you're now some different kind
of person and you're not you know i mean you're
just a firefighter that just happened to plug
a microphone into a computer that's it so so
it's funny when uh you know when you hear that
but i think you know sadly obviously when people
get get very very famous and yeah this is it's
so much like i see it with some of the you know
the actors i've had on the show i mean you just
got to be so careful because you don't want to
overwhelm them but uh no for any any police officer
or firefighter behind a microphone i don't think
any of us have that level of level of fame so
we should be answering all the questions yeah
well so many trolls out there right like oh what's
this guy's angle what's gonna happen if i respond
but that was very cool and we had like really
good chats for a while i mean i don't know what
happened It's very cool. Yeah, no, and I think
that's the problem. The old page, there was like
200 ,000 people on there. And this is the problem
is that, yes, from one perspective, okay, that's
a larger audience disseminate information, but
you also lose the core people that are actually
there to make changes, to interact, you know
what I mean? So I think that's the sad thing
about getting more of a platform is you lose
the most valuable people kind of get lost in
the white noise there. Sure. Well, here we are.
Very cool. Exactly. All right. So you say here
we are. Where on planet Earth are we finding
you today? I'm in Tucson, Arizona right now.
Beautiful. Well, I would love to start at the
very beginning of your journey. So tell me where
you were born and tell me a little bit about
your family dynamic, what your parents did, how
many siblings. All righty. So I was born in Harvey,
Illinois. It's a suburb just south of Chicago.
Not the most fun place to grow up in, but I'm
sure we'll get into that later. My mom was a
stay -at -home mom. She worked in a nursing home,
and she got injured there, messed up her back
pretty good. So she's on disability and staying
at home. And my dad, he was in the Navy for a
couple years, kind of during Vietnam era. I think
he did four, and then he was a firefighter for
Harvey, Illinois. So he did 20 years. He had
a heart attack. was forced to retire and then
four brothers uh i'd never call them my half
brothers but since we're getting into it um two
for my mom's previous marriage two for my dad's
previous marriage and all older than me so i
was kind of the young one in the family and uh
unfortunately my brother david passed away when
he was around 22 and i think i was 12 from cancer
so there's that That's the family dynamics. My
dad passed away in 2019. My mom actually lives
with us here in Arizona along with my father
-in -law. Yeah, so that's the family dynamics.
Yeah, it's so sad because you hear a lot of people
that come on the show and their parents were
first responders and more often than not, it's
a short lifespan from that generation too. Yeah,
his kind of sucked. I mean, he had the heart
attack and he was still good to go. i think he
was 79 when he passed away and just uh i still
don't know all the details but from my understanding
is uh just a mix up of medications and too many
blood thinners and it bled out in his brain because
all the crap that he was on from he was 79 pushing
80 so he he was still fighting strong but it
went down fast and that's crazy i know we'll
get into it but that's kind of part of the reason
i ended up uh taking a break from the fire service
and going into uh full -time active duty with
the uh Air National Guard because when uh when
he did pass away he lived in the district that
I work work in so I called 911 and you know the
guys didn't know was my dad and they rolled in
and they looked at me shocked and I was like
yeah it's here so I got to watch my friends work
my dad and they did what they could do and he
ended up dying in the hospital but When I went
back to the firehouse, I worked in a community
where there's older people. So every time I'd
go to a call and see someone laying in the bed,
all I saw was my dad. I was like, I need a break.
And I didn't realize in the moment that's what
it was. But through the work that I've done,
that's what came to fruition. Yeah. I mean, this
is the thing you hear with the volunteer fire
service. More often than not, they're working
their colleagues, their friends, their kids they
taught, or school classmates in high school.
This is who they're running on. And we don't
think about that, you know, in the career side
is, you know, not many of us really live and
work in the same place these days. A lot of us
can't afford to. But yeah, having that proximity
and working on your loved ones. I mean, that's
another layer of trauma in itself. Yeah, absolutely.
So, yeah, I guess real quick, if you wanted to
talk the path to service, how I got in the military,
is that the kind of way you wanted to go? Well,
let's go back. You made the comment about the
rough upbringing in Harvey. So expand on that.
It's funny because I used to hear a lot of jokes
of like, hey, if there's criminals running from
Chicago, they're going to Harvey. I've heard
that before. And then I actually ran into a cop
pretty recently because a lot of people from
Chicago retired here. They're like, oh, crap,
you're from Harvey. I was like, yeah. I was like,
oh, OK. Yeah, I was. so because of where my dad
worked he worked for the harvey fire department
and the city mandated that you live where you
work and so a lot of the guys didn't even want
to live in harvey so some you know had didn't
have they had fake addresses and lived somewhere
else or they actually lived in the city so that's
why we were forced to live there but yeah it
was rough i mean um a lot of drugs a lot of violence
a lot of gangs all the things you know when my
uh i was out in the streets a lot just running
around because that's just what we did in you
know in that time frame riding bikes and it didn't
seem very safe but in reality it wasn't so you
know especially my brother passed away because
he was into gangs and drug dealing unfortunately
and when he passed away i actually ran into A
kid that I played soccer with and ran into his
older brother and his other brother was like,
Oh shit, you're David's little brother. And they
were wrapped up in the gang. So they kind of
took me under their wing for a long time and
kind of got wrapped up in that life pretty early.
And it was a rough go. Talk to me about that
crossroads. Cause I think this is what's so.
important for people to understand. We have a
lot of issues on our streets at the moment, from
homelessness to sex work to gangs. And you look
at other places in the world and they don't have
it anywhere near as rampant as we do in the US.
What was that crossroads? Because there's people
that... Well, I never went in the gang. Yeah,
because you probably had certain family dynamics
and certain mentors in your life that steered
you towards the military, the fire service, law,
whatever your thing was. But those same mentors
can also be in your community, the gangbangers
and the drug dealers and those kind of people.
So what was kind of missing up to that point?
And then talk to me about that pull for a young
boy in Illinois being pulled into that life.
Yeah. And again, I know we'll get into it, but
all these memories and me figuring this out came
about through my work with therapists, doing
the struggle well in the warrior path, which
we'll get into later. But reflecting on it, it
wasn't that my dad wasn't there or my mom wasn't
there. They were older when they had me and they
did their best. And I wouldn't say there was
any neglect there. But the thing that happened
was because my brother was involved with the
gangs and the drugs, we were really close. really
close growing up and he had cancer too so I remember
when he was diagnosed with cancer he tried to
come around and he wasn't really allowed around
the house because there's people looking for
him there's just a lot of danger surrounding
him so when he passed away it was a Super Bowl
Sunday and I remember being left at my parents
friend's house and they came back and they're
like hey David passed away and I never got to
say goodbye there was no closure there's no closure
at all and there's no closure around actually
how he died like was it drug related was it overdose
was it gang related was it the cancer no closure
whatsoever and so and i didn't get to see him
as often as i wanted so reflecting back you know
running into guys that hung out with david that
were good friends with dave that loved him and
then me being brought under their wing like oh
your david's little brother let's take care of
you was my way i think you know looking back
is my way to interact with my brother and be
with my brother and find that connection because
as much trouble as they got into and as much
things as they did it was kind of weird because
they still wouldn't let me get involved i was
kind of like a hang around almost the whole time
because i was so young i was 14 years old hanging
out with 20 25 year olds going to clubs downtown
going to certain bars and and parties and i was
just there and i think i was desperately seeking
that connection with my brother that i couldn't
have and these guys were essentially just like
them and trying to find some closure and just
trying to fit in because it's very difficult
to fit in right group as well because my dad's
mexican descent my mom's white uh predominantly
african -american community so depending on which
block i was in i never fit in i wasn't full mexican
you know i'm not african -american and and i
went to a catholic grade school and i didn't
fit in there because i was literally the only
kid from harvey in that school so I would ask
kids to come over and play, and their parents
were like, oh, where do you live? I was like,
Harvey. They were like, absolutely not. You can
come to our house. So, yeah, I think that crossover
was just much like you hear all the time, trying
to find some type of connection, family, and
a group to fit in with. And unfortunately, mine
was a little rougher than most groups. So when
you were in this age, and obviously, like you
said, this other group was a lot older, what
about the sports and exercise? What were you
playing and doing back then? Soccer. Soccer was
a big deal. In Chicago, they have this league
called CLASA, Chicago Latin American Soccer Association.
So all the guys that were in the mix played for
this league. And if I remember correctly, all
the teams were like a subset of cities in Mexico.
So I played for La Piedad. So everyone from La
Piedad that lived in that community played for
that team. they're all all close -knit both on
the soccer team and then both in the streets
as well so soccer was a big deal indoor soccer
outdoor soccer and then high school soccer but
the indoor and the summer leagues were just that
big group and those became gangs because then
one team didn't like the other and there's some
gnarly rivals like got into got into a lot of
fights on the soccer field for whatever reason
yeah i grew up in the 80s you know in england
where we're watching people like stabbing each
other and pushing walls on each other over a
football team and it just never made any sense
to me i get it on the pitch you know that's where
you're actually having this competition but the
fans fighting each other stabbing each other
over a bunch of dudes in shorts that just never
never computed me that's why i never had a team
growing up because i was just like that that
to me through my lens was the violence associated
rather than the actual game itself Yeah, I remember
watching a ref get hit in the head with a beer
bottle because he made the wrong call. The game
went on. It was like nothing happened. It was
pretty wild. So what about career aspirations?
You're surrounded, obviously, by this kind of
street life that you found yourself in. Were
there any career dreams that you had at that
time? Oddly enough, I always wanted to be a Navy
pilot and go to Annapolis because Top Gun was
big at that time. My dad was in the Navy. My
other brother had enlisted into the Navy, and
he left. and um so that was a big thing like
grade school type issue i mean high school transition
is where everything changed but that was a big
thing and then throughout high school i just
i didn't try hard enough i could have done a
lot better as i mean we all say we can do but
um it was strange i didn't know what to do like
my dad was like hey you should go in the fire
service he didn't really push it on me but he
he mentioned it quite often and then the military
was always kind of there you know then you you
meet you have a girlfriend you don't want to
leave i got a job i didn't want to leave the
the area so it's kind of in between jobs after
high school and then uh my brother from my mom's
side they own a company and they got me in as
a union laborer and uh if you ever seen that
movie um blues brothers where they're flying
over the top and you got the steel mills that's
kind of the area i worked yeah i worked there
in east chicago indiana It's not the steel mill,
but it was where they provide the coal for the
steel. And so I was cleaning chutes, doing all
the things, making really good money because
you're a union worker in the city. So that's
a good gig to have. But I'd take about an hour
to hour and a half with Vaseline and Q -tips
to clean all the coal out of my eyes and ears.
And I just remember walking up a ramp and I couldn't
breathe. I was like coughing up all this black
crap. I was like, I can't do this anymore. So
I go to the control room and one of the guys
I knew, he was in the army. And I was like, hey,
man, I was like, what do you think about the
military? I was like, my brother was in Desert
Storm. My dad was in Vietnam. My uncle was in
Korea. My grandfather was in World War II. There's
a lot of service. I was like, what do you think
about it? And it's funny because he was like,
well, he's like, hey, man, there's no wars going
on right now. And there probably won't be any.
So don't go in the Marines or Army. Go in the
Navy or the Air Force. You can learn a trade.
I was like, all right, Air Force sounds cool.
And then win the Air Force. I mean, I think that
was like a Monday. That Wednesday I enlisted
and then I shipped out. And then went to tech
school and did all the boot camp and all the
things. And my second day of work was 9 -11 and
everything changed after that. Before we progress
forward, I meant to ask you this before. With
the Vietnam generation, unlike the World War
II and I would argue the last 20 years or so,
that generation specifically was so poorly received
when they came back home. And I've heard so many
horror stories of people getting pissed on and
spit on and all these other things. what are
some if any of the stories that that you remember
from your father's experience in vietnam zero
he you'd always say one cool funny story that
when uh before he went into country he was in
japan and because uh he actually looks uh kind
of asian so a lot of guys thought he was japanese
and so he the japanese mafia actually took him
under his wing at this one bar and like you just
hang out with them and and some marines would
come in and start a fight with them and they
and the japanese guys would protect them because
they called him uh i don't know if this is a
derogatory term i don't mean it that way but
he said they would call him nisi boy and i don't
know what that means but that's they said they
would call him and like he was like a friend
of theirs he would tell me that and then he would
tell me how my uncle was in the air force my
dad spent more time in planes than my uncle did
in the air force my uncle spent more time on
ships than my dad did and that's the extent of
the uh military stuff that he would talk about
he wouldn't talk about it at all yeah there's
a lot of them i think just bottled it in yeah
but i'm talking through my mom with some of these
problems that you know again stuff that i learned
through warrior path and struggle well i actually
had some open conversations with my mom and she
brought up that my dad had some significant events
happen in vietnam and and she didn't really elaborate
either but i guess he went through some pretty
gnarly stuff and took some lives and was in the
mix but he just never talked about it and i don't
know if he talked about it with my brother either
i mean i just can't imagine you know whether
you know you enlist or whether you were drafted
to go out there fight with you know the american
flag on your shoulder do the things that your
country asks for you to do whether people back
home agree with it or not and then you come back
And, you know, that's the environment that you
return. So there's no, you know, you listen to
Sebastian Junger talking about the Native Americans
coming back from war. There was storytelling
and, you know, rituals and all these kind of
things and the celebration for the warriors returning
to come back to such a, you know, betrayal basically
by the country on those actual men and women
that were out there, regardless of the politics,
how absolutely crushing that must have been for
our men and women in uniform. Yeah. Absolutely.
And some of my studies through the social work
and other studies, they also, you know, I don't
have all the details, but they talked about,
again, like the World War II guys. I mean, they
had two to three weeks coming back on ships and
they had a lot of time together to decompress
before they got home. And then Vietnam guys,
I mean, they're home almost instantly. And Desert
Storm and the GWAC guys, you know, one plane
and you're home pretty quick with not a lot of
time to decompress and you're thrusted into a
whole different world that, you know. yesterday
i was just getting shot at today i'm you know
at the supermarket and that's a lot to deal with
in such a short time it's amazing when i ask
these early life questions a lot of times it's
either father if it's an older guest or grandfather
was a world war ii veteran and you know we've
romanticized those guys you know they came back
they rolled up their sleeves and they got back
to work greatest generation and they were hands
down the greatest generation for the courage
and sacrifice they made you know fighting true
true um tyranny overseas but actually when you
hear the you know the children's version of how
dad was they did struggle they struggled immensely
but we almost you know closed the door for them
to be able to talk about the struggles like usually
no no don't ruin everything you're the greatest
generation you took care of it And they didn't,
you know, a lot of them were, you know, it was
alcoholism and domestic abuse and all these other
things, just like we see with our firefighters
and cops and the military members more recently,
like you can't go overseas and do that and then
come home. And like you said, now you're, you
know, working in construction and just bury the
fact that, you know. you discovered Auschwitz
or you had to kill a German with a rock in the
middle of Holland somewhere and just bury that
down and not talk about it again. So it's interesting
when you hear these actual family stories that
we need to give grace to that generation and
understand that they did struggle and rightly
so. Oh, absolutely. My mom speaks about that
as well. My grandfather coming back. And certain
things that happened in her childhood as well,
which you can easily relate. I mean, you spent
how many years in World War II? And I'd venture
to say World War II is pretty rough as well,
because from readings I've had and things that
I've looked up is like when you're deployed,
you weren't coming back until it was done. Like
sometimes you have like, hey, you're gone first.
You almost have like a timeline, like you're
going to get here and leave here. And a lot of
times that doesn't happen. But those guys and
gals were like. Yeah, we'll see when it's over
and could spend years out there. That's that's
rough. Absolutely. Well, we stopped at 9 -11.
So you're now in the Air Force. You've gone through
your training. Talk to me how that day unfolded
through your eyes. And then let's kind of walk
through what happened next in your career. That
was a crazy day. So my first job was military
intelligence. And I had got stationed at a headquarters
building in Scott Air Force Base, Illinois, which
is funny because I put. I wanted to go all overseas,
get out of Illinois, all the things. And I get
my orders and it said Scott Air Force Base, Illinois.
I was like, where the hell is this at? And so
I go home on leave, collect all my stuff and
drive down. And I had never been out of the city
or suburbs. I thought Illinois was one big city
and the rest of suburbs. I'm driving through
cornfields and all the things. I was a shock
within itself. But I just remember that day sitting
in the vault and, you know, we would have camera
or TVs with the news going on. And there's this
pretty big secure vault. And the first plane
hit. And I remember the lieutenant was like,
Marquez, get over here. And we were watching
it. We're like, we didn't realize it was a big
plane. And, you know, people are like, oh, man,
some air traffic controllers getting fired today.
Like, how does that happen? Like, what the hell?
And then the second one hit. It was like dead
silence. And then the phone started ringing and
everyone just scattered. The base shut down.
There's Humvees everywhere with 50 cals mounted.
It was like game on. just it got real busy real
fast and i was in charge of these certain kits
that we'd send out uh communication kits and
started shipping those out real quick nobody
knew what the hell was going on we just knew
that something was going to happen real soon
just got busy real quick and then i had requested
to deploy right away and they're like well your
upgrade training's not done so Hurryed up with
my upgrade training and all the things. And because
I worked for AMC, Air Mobility Command, so it's
the big cargo planes, there weren't any in -country.
There's some, but not the ones that we dealt
with. So I got sent to Ramstein like five times
to go do the intel briefs for the planes going
back and forth from in -country, just giving
them their threat briefs and escape and evasion
charts and updating all their information in
case something happened. Ramstein's Germany.
Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's the main hub. So
where did that lead you? So I was at Scott for
about three years. Went to Spain a few times,
Germany, a bunch of other places, Turkey, Kuwait,
all kinds of stuff, just doing those intel briefs,
doing training stuff. And then my boss was like,
hey, man, you got to get out of Illinois. You
got to get to another place. And I went to Korea,
Kunsan Air Base for a year. and worked with the
fighters and that was a whole other crazy experience
that was at the time when uh north korea started
doing their nuclear tests and being in that mix
and almost being on edge the whole time where
nothing's really happening right now but it could
and if it does it's going to go real bad real
quick and and that that uh i think that started
the real like mental health type issues because
when i was at scott i was only four hours away
from home so i could go home and see my buddies
but then i'm in korea for a year completely isolated
from every anybody can't go home all the things
and drinking was big there i mean there was a
lot of drinking going on in korea and that's
what we did we worked and drank because you couldn't
have your families there either as a remote tour
so folks that were married and had kids are there
alone as well so you got really close it was
really close in the community but also there's
a lot of drinking involved which didn't help
the isolation of being away from family and whatnot
and it was a very high tempo uh ops as well so
it was good it was cool uh learned a lot but
it was definitely uh i feel like that was the
start of my struggles well i guess exposing said
struggles from even earlier in childhood it's
interesting i saw a documentary on um people
trying to escape north korea and there was a
graphic which i'd seen actually shared on the
internet before but it showed you know the advance
of the north koreans through korea and how like
close they were to be completely overrun and
our you know the americans and the allies put
literally pushed them from like the very tip
of korea all the way back to the point that we
know today and again it's so sad because that's
the kind of as they say the forgotten war the
heroism of that generation is also not really
acknowledged by our country no not at all and
i would have to give some of the intel briefs
of the newcomers and just talk about how you
know if things shake out what it looks like and
it was kind of a scary brief and i would tell
him he's like hey we're gonna win the war but
we're not gonna be around for the parade like
we're just a speed bump for the people in korea
like if this kicks off it's gonna get ugly real
quick what about korean culture when you know
one of the big kind of through lines of this
podcast is is literally having guests from around
the world and so many countries this there's
areas that they do really well that i think if
we knowledge shared and have the humility to
ask each other we could you know the the rising
tide lifts all ships you know the whole planet
could elevate were there any things about uh
korean culture or kind of technologies or anything
else that they had over there that you were kind
of thinking wow this is pretty impressive um
not so much like technology or anything like
that i you know unfortunately i was in those
young stages so i just hung around the bars and
and that type of scene but the culture was really
cool i really enjoyed it they had a uh a program
at in kunsan where you can help teach english
to uh korean students to children and that was
an amazing experience so i would do that uh mostly
on the weekends mostly saturday mornings and
you would go to the school hang out with these
kids for a couple hours help them with their
english and And whatnot. And then the teachers
would take you to traditional restaurants or
to their home and teach you about culture. And
everywhere they took you was a place that typically
Americans or foreigners did not go. And that
was an incredible experience. I love that. And
I got to go volunteer at a Catholic nursing home
in Korea, which was super cool. Like we learned
how to make kimchi from. from scratch that was
a really amazing experience so just the friendliness
and the the accepting was really cool and just
like anywhere else the older community really
embraced uh from what i saw a lot of the americans
because they because of the forgotten war and
some some kids you know get some college kids
that were against us being there but overwhelmingly
it was a very positive experience with the culture
and whatnot I tried to learn a little bit of
the language and it was difficult, but I'm all
in on the Korean food and bulgogi and kimchi
and overall it was a great experience. I would
love to go back and do more sightseeing and seeing
some of what it has to offer. Going to the DMZ,
that was an incredible experience. You go into
the meeting house and you technically go to North
Korea. When you go into the meeting house, you
cross the blue line and you hurry up and run
around. running around the table and seeing just
the standoff with the Korean soldiers and the
North Korean soldiers just standing there, literally
staring at each other for hours on end, just,
you know, like a little mini show of force. But
I loved it. All the places I've been to were
phenomenal, like Germany and all around Europe
and Spain and even Turkey was pretty cool. Qatar,
all the places I had really good experiences.
Nothing negative to say about those at all. It's
interesting seeing how much Korean culture has
blown up in the West now. I mean, if you look
on Netflix, there's so many, you know, Korean
shows and films. And then we have K -pop. And,
you know, when I remember, I think it was J -pop
when I lived in Japan, like 20 plus years ago.
But it was more then an adoration for the West,
even though actually, like many areas, technology
and fashion, they were way ahead of us. It was
the other way around. But now I feel like it's
side by side. Like all these artists, you know,
are collaborating with each other. And it's it's
so good to see that the Internet has kind of
merged a lot of these countries, which is in
a beautiful way. Yes. One of the benefits like
social media and the Internet, just the positive
connections that can be made. And you can definitely
see it through the sharing of cultures, which
is super cool. And I remember going to like a
fake pizza hut and a fake Starbucks, you know,
the logo. But it really wasn't. And stuff like
that, seeing that adoption of American culture
throughout the communities and the cities. pretty
funny and cool yeah it's sad as well because
you think about north koreans and again we only
get the images that are sent but you know this
this adoration of the leader and this you know
these parades for them and you know obviously
the the propaganda that they're fed forget the
west but just their brothers and sisters to the
south these are the same people and you know
if you allow a tyrant to rise and i know the
origin obviously was post world war ii But how
tragic it is that you can divide. I mean, look
at even, you know, East and West Berlin. You
can just simply put a barrier or a wall up and
you can actually condition people to hate each
other, even though they're the same people. Yeah,
that's crazy to see for sure. All right. Well,
then after Korea, walk me through what happens
next. So I was in Korea and I was supposed to
have a follow on tour to England and I was working
with fighter pilots in Korea. Didn't have the
best experience. I just don't think I was good
enough, to be quite honest, to work with them
because they're so high speed. And so I denied
my follow on to England and I went back to working
with the heavy aircraft, the AMC command. So
I ended up in McGuire Air Force Base in New Jersey.
And that's when I kind of started my firefighter
journey. Like I started really talking to my
dad about the fire department because I realized
like sitting in an office, especially in vaults
with no windows. just something was missing and
he he'd always talk about how much he loved the
job but he didn't push it it was just little
little uh snapshots here and there and i started
remembering uh going to the station and how cool
it was and how fun it was uh meeting the guys
and when i was home on leave my dad had already
been retired and starting to hang out with him
and uh going to retirement parties from guys
that i remember when i was really little and
just seeing the camaraderie i was like man this
is this is really cool i like what this is about
so when i went to new jersey I actually started
volunteering at the local volunteer fire department
in Lumberton, New Jersey. So I went to their
academy at night and started volunteering with
them because I figured I was like, well, let
me start slow. If I volunteer and I like it,
well, then obviously I should pursue it. And
if I don't, then it was a good test with, I don't
want to say minimal effort, but minimal risk.
Right. I didn't have to leave anything to get
into it. So I fell in love with it quickly. And
then I actually. changed jobs in the Air Force
to become an Air Force firefighter. So after
McGuire, I went to the Department of Defense
Fire Academy in Goodfellow, Texas, and then got
stationed in Davis Mothlin in Tucson. So that's
why I'm here. So I was here for about two years.
I got out of active duty and got a civilian firefighter
job out here and just stuck around. I started
off at Tohono O 'odham Indian Nation and then
moved to where I'm at now. What were the idiosyncrasies
about the military firefighting that are different
to the civilian side? There wasn't much difference,
but the thing that made the Air Force fire department
weird was obviously the focus on protecting the
runways and aircraft. The ARF side of it was
significantly different, but it was a very cool,
weird experience. They, at least the fire, because
I only have experience at one Air Force fire
department, but it was treated like a civilian
fire department where it was based on your position
on the truck of your, of the hierarchy, you know.
And so I came in as an E -5 staff sergeant, you
know, not commissioned officer, but I was the
new guy. So I was sitting backwards. So although
I outranked the guy driving, it didn't matter
because I was the new firefighter. So like your
military rank didn't matter. It was all about
your position on the truck. So that was kind
of like a weird thing to navigate, like trying
to fit in and that role. And then the schedules
aren't that great because there's less shifts.
So we're 24 on 24 off with a Kelly day. So every,
so I think it equated to like a six, three, six
24s on, and then you got three days off. Other
than that, it's fairly similar because you have
base housing, you have buildings to worry about
just adding in. you know trying to figure out
how to how to cut out a pilot out of a fighter
jet or egressing that or shutting down aircraft
which is pretty scary when they're running and
you gotta jump you know do some emergency procedures
and chalk and tires and whatnot while there's
a huge engine over your head that's a little
scary but other than that it was pretty similar
i've had a few air force firefighters on the
show um there's there's one side where you know
they're on the space pretty much as soon as the
the aircraft stops landing They're pretty much
good for the rest of the night. And then you've
got others that are almost acting like a municipal
department. They're running calls through the
night. Which of those two kind of sides was yours
more familiar with? Us both, because there was
two stations. So there's one right on the flight
line, which primarily dealt with the aircraft
things. And there's one that was closer to base
housing that did the housing. But yeah, it just
depended where the call was, whatever closest
was. If there was somebody working a 24 -hour
shift, let's say in the command post, and it
was next to the flight line, well, if they had
a medical emergency, we went. So it was both.
They always said, though, the primary focus would
be the flight line. Like if a plane was coming
in, emergency, and there was a house fire, we're
going to the plane first, and the local fire
department could take care of the house fire.
But, yeah, it was a nice combination of both.
Well, you mentioned about being on a Native American
reservation. Again, this is another kind of group
of people I don't think get the kind of exposure
and conversations that they need. You have obviously
this kind of native heritage and then this loss
of tribe, literally in this term, where some
of these tribes were smited from the States.
And then I also hear about poverty, desperation,
addiction in some of these areas too. What was
your experience in that particular place you
worked? It was incredible. I loved it. Unfortunately,
ego and not understanding how things really work
made me leave, right? I was like, oh, we're sitting
in this single wide trailer with just two to
three of us fighting this fire. I should go to
a big city department and really get after it.
But I fought more fire there than I did at the
fire department I'm at now. I don't regret the
move, but yeah, there was a lot of sadness there
as well. and the culture and some some trust
issues as well which i completely understand
you know they did a bunch of hiring and there's
a lot of non -natives that were hired and it
took a lot of effort to to uh fit in and you
know and i understood and i think that was a
benefit of my military experiences is being in
different cultures like hey look this isn't your
home Don't come in here and think it is or try
to run things just because you got hired on to
the fire department. These guys have been here
longer than you. They know the culture. They
know the language. They know the area. You need
to fit in and be humble. And it was an awesome
experience. It took a lot of time to learn the
culture, go to the different events. And it took
a little bit of time, but I feel like I've built
some trust while I was there and really integrated
myself as much as I could. so please please carry
on oh and then the crazy thing is it's a pretty
big nation it's the size of connecticut i believe
with four stations so sometimes our response
times are like 45 minutes it which is pretty
wild and then it borders it borders mexico and
there's kind of a kind of almost like free passing
because a lot of the uh the natives uh extend
into mexico so that same tribe has uh tribal
members in mexico as well so But there was also
a lot of the drug trafficking or immigration
and whatnot. So summers were rough. I have a
lot of bad memories of running on people that
were simply trying to find a better way, got
lost in the desert and needed help. But, you
know, sometimes it's too late and sometimes it's
right on time. I had some scary ones, too. I
remember going to a wildland fire at night and
we had to be escorted by a border patrol. And
he was sitting there just racking his AR -15,
making noise. he looked over at me he's like
you know i'm doing that i was like i have no
idea why you're doing that he's like look in
the mountains and you see these little spotlights
because there are spotters for the people running
running drugs it's like oh got it so he wanted
them to know that we were there and you know
we leave the lights on the fire truck on purpose
so they know we're there and whatnot so sometimes
it's a little hairy but yeah it's definitely
interesting for sure so what kind of kind of
town um city did you find yourself as far as
the dynamic of your current department the current
one is um we have 10 stations so it's in a town
of oral valley so it not as big as a city so
a nice uh size municipality i guess like a suburb
type deal so as you and it's pretty i'm sorry
and it's pretty cool um while i was while i went
to orders they started automatic aid with another
town's fire department and then uh tucson fire
department trying to almost mirroring what phoenix
does without that automatic aid or doesn't matter
what it says on your truck whoever's closer goes
so it kind of turned into a really big uh department
pretty quick have you had the chance to figure
out how they did that because when i worked in
anaheim for example that's what we had and we
even trained together there was a couple of training
centers and and all the neighboring departments
would come in and we do drills and we do class
time and You know, you go on a fire and yeah,
you just, as you said, however many engines you
need, right? Three Anaheim, two Fullerton, whatever
it is. And we make this compliment. I've worked
in other places where county and city won't even
talk to each other, which nauseates me. I mean,
if you have that kind of narcissism in your leadership,
then you need a clean house. When you kind of
think back, what were the things that were put
in place to allow the humility and the leadership
in your area to create such a great relationship?
Yeah, it's a good question that I don't know.
You know, I was either at the engineer or captain
level when that happened. We just knew it was
in the talks, but I think we're kind of spoiled
being close to Phoenix. And from my understanding,
they're the ones that really implemented that
into the Valley. So I think just the Arizona
Chiefs Council got together, figured out how
Phoenix did it, and then Tucson Fire, Northwest
Fire, and our fire department just got together
and was like, hey, how do we make this happen?
And they just made it happen. So I don't know
how long it took. don't know the ins and outs,
but from the outside looking in, it seemed pretty
seamless. But again, we don't know what talks
are being had between district members, board
members, city council, and all those, all that
goodness. Brilliant. I'm actually about to interview
John Brunicini soon. So I'll ask him. Yeah. He
may or may not have some insight on that. All
right. Well then let's kind of go before we hit
the mental health side. When you reflect back
now as a firefighter, now a municipal firefighter,
what were some of the career calls and then if
there's any that you want to weave in that actually
contributed to you know the downwards uh spiral
that you encountered yeah it's interesting to
say that because it will it will dovetail nicely
with the uh struggle well course and the warrior
path there's there's probably two main calls
that really stick out in my head like new year's
eve will never be the same so i remember getting
toned out like right at midnight like you look
at your watches like is this a movie right at
midnight and uh it was a 17 year old kid that
got stabbed in the heart and uh you know it's
kind of like through gang violence so i remember
getting there and pulling them out of this big
bonfire and i remember all our looking back you
know after we did our after action like a lot
of our gear was burned because it fell in the
fire but there was a A lot of animosity, like,
yeah, that's what you get, you know, almost like
cheering on his death. And I just remember doing
compressions and the blood coming out of his
chest, like there's no way. And his uncle being
there because it was a small community. And I
just remember him, you know, passing away in
the firehouse. And as soon as he got back in
the truck, it was just another call. Like we
left the station at midnight. We didn't get back
until I think four or five. So no time to sleep,
no time to decompress, no time to talk about
it. And we just didn't talk about it. So that
one sticks out in my mind a lot. you know uh
and then there was one where we saved a guy and
um you know we're all excited and pulled him
out of the car pretty gnarly accident and uh
you know we found out later that the family was
kind of upset because now he has the uh the brain
capacity of a five -year -old so it's almost
like he would have been better off dead because
although we saved him saved his life he was in
such a bad way that he doesn't really have a
quality of life anymore so that that one that
one stings a lot and then uh Yeah, just a lot
of I remember opening up a semi truck that Border
Patrol called us on and we opened up the door
and there's just a bunch of people crossing the
border, a bunch of immigrants there. And one
young girl, I think she was 20 years old, died
of hyperthermia. Just couldn't couldn't bring
her back. Those are the big ones that stand out
to me. But I think pairing that as far as. with
the mental health and the struggle well in the
warrior path was that I just didn't have any
ways to deal with it. There was no ways to process
that. There was no wellness practices involved
other than, hey, let's go get a beer. Let's go
meet up at the, you know, zero seven in the morning
and get a six pack type deal. That's the only
way to deal with it. And like my friend, Molly,
she was telling me that she instructs at the
local community college and she likes to talk
about the mental health aspect as of. You know,
we're seeing recruiting, hurting and PD and military
and fire. And it's because we hear a lot about
post -traumatic stress disorder. We hear a lot
about no sleep. We hear all the bad things associated
with the firehouse. And although we got to take
some responsibility and ownership is what she's
trying to teach them is, yeah, these things are
going to happen. You're signing up for trauma,
but you also have a choice of, hey, am I going
to go get hammered because this happened or am
I going to. go for a hike or call somebody or
talk about it or do some meditation like what
wellness practices are you doing and prepared
to do uh when these things happen as opposed
to just throwing your hands up like i have no
idea what to do Yeah. And I think that's the
problem we've had with this conversation is a
lot of times I've seen people put it on the shoulders
of the firefighter. When you get home, your sleep
hygiene and this and this and this, the answer
is both. Yes, we absolutely have to have ownership
and understand the value of our sleep. And when
you're reaching for a beer, asking yourself why,
and like you said, could it walk or a meditation
or a swim or a cold plunge, take away that urge.
But we've also got to look at the working environment,
you know, and I think that the way you process
trauma is sleep, you know, so we have to look
at the way that we work our firefighters and
say, is this working? Is this the right environment?
And I know I beat a dead horse talking about
this. But, you know, this is what I don't see
departments doing is looking in the mirror and
go, what are we doing wrong? It's always even
with the cancer. Oh, it's it's the it's the PFAS.
That was the latest thing. Well, that's still
you pointing away from yourself. You know, sleep
deprivation is also a carcinogen. I know departments
that never run fire that have lost numerous firefighters
to cancer. So if it was just the carcinogens,
then be easy fix. But yeah, so I think it's such
an important conversation that we address both
simultaneously because then you'll have a double
effect. Yeah, absolutely. Definitely takes a
team effort for sure. You know, it's easy to
blame the environment, easy to blame the individual.
It's easy to point fingers. It's really hard
to. to put in extra work to see how we could
really figure this out. You're never going to
figure it out perfectly, but sure as hell can
make some, some different strides to make it
better for sure. Yeah. And the schedule, it's,
it's, it's crazy, right? Cause I remember my
dad, you know, this is the best schedule in the
world. And we look at it like, well, is it? So,
so some, it has its benefits, especially at slower
stations, but at a busy station, you know, stand
at 24 for me and then getting home and trying
to operate is not fun. No. No. And again, I put
a post out a little while ago. I did the math
where I figured out how many days a year a Monday
to Friday person works, you know, and it was
260 days a year because they have the weekends
off. And that's before obviously vacation. If
you factor an eight hour day as a firefighter,
so that's apples to apples, it equates to 364
days a year. So you get a day off. every year
that's it so I mean I've been harping about this
we do not have a great schedule unless you're
listening and you do a full platoon system and
then it's much better still not great because
civilians that don't save lives work 40 hours
a week but you know a lot better than a 56 but
but yeah I mean we have to debunk that myth because
it's just completely wrong yeah and guaranteed
sleep right we don't have we might get some sleep
but The 40 -hour jobs, even if you're working
shift work, which isn't very healthy, you're
still at least guaranteed a chunk where if you
can't sleep, it won't get interrupted. Absolutely.
Well, you talked about some of the traumas. You
talked about initially working your father and
then watching your crew. Where was the lowest
place that you found yourself? And then let's
walk through how you found Boulder Crest. this
journey started a long time ago probably around
i would say sometime after when i got back from
korea and started uh working in new jersey at
that air force base just something was off always
angry tired drinking was uh top of mind you know
the bad habits the addictions whether that was
uh porn womanizing boozing whatever bad decisions
just something going on so that started then
and a lot of uh i guess bad relationship decisions
and just being an asshole just across the board
whether it was with friends or intimate relationships
and just not being a good dude and they started
getting a little bit of help and and this is
what actually uh led me into social work as well
finishing up that degree is I remember I was
like all right I'm gonna start getting help and
I went to one therapist and I told her the stories
that I shared here and and a few others I'm just
gonna spare you the details but she got up crying
and left the room and then came back and was
like okay we're done here I was like oh sweet
all right that's how this works and then I remember
going to another therapist and he gave me like
a bunch of like homework and asked me some random
questions and He ended it with like, do you wish
your parents were dead? I was like, not really,
but I don't know where we're going with this.
I was like, all right, we're done here. So I
was like completely turned off from that. And
then witnessing three different firefighter buddies,
two were told, hey, it's too hard for you. You
should just retire. And they're really good firefighters.
So they did because they didn't give them any
ways out. And then another one was told that,
hey, when those calls that trigger you ring out,
just don't go. He's like, that's not how this
works. I can't just knock on a call. And so that
happened. And then I don't know how I got turned
on to the therapist I ended up finding, but she
had worked specifically with first responders
and veterans. And that's what opened the door.
I was like, okay, this might actually work. And
then that came around the same time of meeting
my wife, Aniella. And when I met her, I was like,
I knew she's the one. Like, no questions asked.
Like, this is going to work. And I was like,
well, I got to really un -F myself if I want
to make this work. And so that's when I started
really hammering out all these issues and whatnot.
So, yeah, I think it's just been a long time
coming. And I finally realized that, you know,
and when I talked to people, I was like, yeah,
you know, I was 14, hanging out with a bunch
of gang members, going to parties, drinking.
Isn't that normal? And they're like, no, it's
not normal. And then when the therapist was like,
tell me about your childhood. I was like, I don't
remember much. before 17 she's like yeah that's
a problem so when i was like actually starting
to figure out that whatever normal is it is what
it is it's all relative but what i was going
through what i was thinking and the things that
happened to me i wouldn't say aren't normal or
normal they were normal for where i grew up but
they were having significant impact on on who
i was and my health mentally and and my way to
be a and getting in the way of me being a better
person for sure yeah I mean, it's funny if you
think about it, you know, a child growing up
in a nuclear family in suburbia somewhere and
the parents actually are madly in love with each
other. You know, that's their normal. A little
child growing up in Gaza at the moment, that's
their normal. Two very different normals. So
normal doesn't necessarily mean healthy. Yeah,
exactly. Because, yeah, it's all relative for
sure. Absolutely. All right. Well, then how did
you find Boulder Crest? And let's start talking
about the program that you went through. All
right. So I first, so, you know, I've taken all
the critical incident stress management, the
compassion fatigue classes, all the CBTs we've
got to do with the military, the same with the
fire, all the assist training and suicide trainings,
like how to, how to help somebody else, how to
look for your friend, make sure everybody's taken
care of, make sure your wingman's taken care
of, all those courses. My commander at the time,
he went through the Struggle Well course because
he was friends with someone at Tucson Police
Department. And apparently Tucson Police Department
and Miami Police Department are the vanguards
of the Struggle Well portion of Boulder Crest,
which is specifically focused, I think it was
on law enforcement. Now it's reaching out to
fire and then it's reaching all first responders.
So he went to that course and he knew I was very
invested into mental health. And he was like,
hey, bro, you should go to this course. And it's
funny. i think i told him this but i guess he'll
find out but i was like no i'm way too busy i'm
good because in my mind i was like i'm not going
through another resiliency course like they're
not like what is going to make this different
he's like okay cool and another one came up he's
like hey i'm not really asking you this time
you're gonna go i was like fine so i go into
the struggle well course and um day one i was
like ah here we go it's the same crap over and
over again and then when we really got into it
and really got into the work nothing they teach
is new nothing they teach is cosmic or nothing
we've heard before but just the way they packaged
it the way they made it about like how can Tony
help Tony how can James help James instead of
hey Tony make sure James is okay and he'll make
sure you're okay then you both will be okay it
was like no no shit like how can you reflect
on yourself reflect on your day -to -day reflect
on your past understand that there are traumas
that happened but what could what goodness can
you get out of there and and so that's how i
got exposed to boulder crushers through the struggle
world course which was phenomenal and i thought
that was like the capsule i tell everyone hey
like this is my capsule of my mental health journey
and then i started i did some guiding so they
don't really call instructors they call them
guiding and i guided with two other individuals
and they're like hey you need to go to warrior
path i was like nah that's not for me I didn't
feel worthy to go. Like, I didn't feel like I
did enough as far as the combat side of the house.
Like, no, you need to go. And I went through
that and man, I was like struggle on steroids.
And it was absolutely phenomenal. Like that one
really pushed me over the edge from the things
I learned. And the biggest takeaway from the
struggle, well, they do this really cool thing
where they, they put up a graph and they're like,
Hey, in your job. So if I were to ask you, James,
In your job as a firefighter, do you think it
was good to be hypervigilant and understand your
surroundings and have situational awareness?
Yes. Yes. Is it good to have attention to detail,
you know, making sure your hose lays are good
to go, making sure your air pack is above 40?
Yes. And, you know, things like that. Boom, boom,
boom. Is it good to have all these things? Like,
absolutely. Then they flip the script and then
they put the DSM -5 symptoms of PTSD. you know
hyper -visionally um always looking around uh
easily easily uh upset if something's not correct
all these things are like holy so they made a
parody of like this is the training you got to
do your job and this is how you it bleeds over
to your everyday life and you need to install
a dimmer switch of when to turn that on and off
instead instead of just on off when can you turn
it up and turn it down and then they go into
how you're training growing up Like, were you
trained to shut up and color in your house because
you were scared? Were you trained to be overly
aggressive because of the neighborhood you grew
up in? Like, was it feast or famine? Did you
have to be the strong one to fight? Well, that's
your training. So nothing's good, nothing's bad.
It's just how you were trained. And now once
you get an understanding of how you were trained,
both professionally and in your childhood, then
you can understand why these things happen and
install that dimmer switch. And that was remarkable
for me, just that little exercise. Incredible.
Talk to me a little bit more about unpacking
your childhood. I think one of the mistakes that
a lot of the general conversation make is, oh,
PTSD. Oh, it's because you had that call, you
know, that decapitated child, that gangbanger,
whatever it was. And when you actually dive in,
as you have done into this world, you realize
that, you know, for example, the ACEs, the Adverse
Childhood Experience score, excuse me. A lot
of us supposedly are at six out of 10. A lot
of the incarcerated population are at six out
of 10. You know, there's that crossroads for
us. So understanding that a lot of the reasons
that we even put the uniform on are because of
our childhood, which I would argue is great if
you've processed those traumas, not so good if
you've kind of stuffed them down. So what was
some of the aha moments? Because you've touched
on it a couple of times that that was really
when you kind of were looking that far back as
far as being being. taking the spotlight off
your career and actually shining it to your formative
years yeah absolutely that was the most incredible
thing because all those those calls were bad
right they didn't i guess they didn't have the
impact that i thought they would have on me especially
when i didn't before i had my daughter i remember
going on uh on um pete's calls and like hey i'll
i'll take care of it doesn't bother me i don't
have kids and i thought being numb was my superpower
like it helped a lot uh quite actually so what
made me realize that it's more than just the
calls or in our duty was uh i was doing studies
for social work one study was talking about combat
veterans marines and they they talked about how
like hey i was doing my job in combat that's
not the problem because that's when they start
figuring out like no it's the childhood thing
and much like you said there was a study that
was brought up at warrior path where the majority
of people that enlist have the high ACEs scores.
Majority of first responders have the high ACEs
scores because they want to, whether it's consciously
or subconsciously, they want to go into an environment
to protect others because they were not protected
themselves. So yes, we sign up for trauma when
we do these jobs. And yes, in a typical life,
you'll see your grandparents pass away, your
parents pass away, maybe your brother. brother
sister maybe uncle and down the line like a parent
should never bury their child so on and so forth
but in the first responder world military world
you're going to see all that trauma like within
a year like maybe five times over but um going
back to the the childhood thing so in struggle
while they talked about they have this tony robbins
video and it said uh if you're going to blame
him for all the bad you got to blame him for
all the good and and that helped and then there
was also uh unpacking your rucksack like figuring
out the goodness out of the bad things that happened
so they talked about that and that's when i started
reflecting back because when i was gosh i think
it was like eight or nine i remember um going
down the street and playing street fighter video
games tournaments like i was awesome at it you
know all day and out of nowhere the uh one of
my friends was like hey come over here and he
showed me a gun showed me a revolver explained
i have any revolvers better because it holds
the shells and then showed me crack and then
um uh sold it to the neighbor we watched the
neighborhood hide like their mom and it was pretty
bad experience fast forward like a week later
there was a uh the older brother came back from
jail he's like oh you think that's funny i'm
gonna show you what jails look like and i was
sexually assaulted at a young age and and uh
that struggle well made me realize like oh um
maybe that's why i never sold drugs maybe that's
why i never did anything illegal because i remember
my answer when hey, do you want to sell this
stuff that fell off a truck? Do you want to sell
those drugs? Do you want to do this, do that?
And I was like, no, I don't want to go to jail.
So it's like peeling back that I was like, oh,
that's a gem I could find out of that rock is
that really crappy thing happened to me, but
it prevented me from doing things to go to jail
because I was scared to death to go to jail because
of that experience. So learning that and then
Warrior Path may help me process my brother's
death as well and made me realize like that was.
the focal point of all this childhood stuff.
So now when I go back to the firehouse in Maine,
now with my work in the military, I'm like, I
have all these wellness practices. I have a solid
understanding of why certain things trigger me,
why certain things are upsetting to me because
of the past. And now I'm able to process it a
little better as opposed to pointing fingers.
And another thing it did for me is it made me
realize that, you know, I had a lot of shame
and guilt. I did a lot of bad things that people
i cared about i you know i'm really good at isolating
and shutting people off and all the things those
are all just deep defense mechanisms and it taught
me not to do that and taught me to get away from
that and and to really uh build that trust and
connection and have some good friends so i mean
it just all like just came together and and really
yeah the childhood stuff was a a big deal to
process all that and get me to a better place
and i don't i can't i don't think the traumas
exposed in the firehouse and military were what
made me do bad decisions i think those were crutches
because i could also use as a crutch like hey
i'm treating you bad because i had it bad or
i'm getting hammered every night because of this
and it should be okay you should just leave me
alone that's that's not the case and yeah just
figuring out why things what's what where the
training came from and how to stop it is probably
the most important things that i've i've learned
I was really taken aback how many men, especially,
were sexually abused when they were young on
this podcast, a lot of them in uniform. I think
it's woefully underappreciated how frequent it
is. Obviously, the curtain's being pulled back
a little bit more, and this sexual predator thing
has been put into the center stage. Our generation
and before, like I've heard so many stories of
men who have been molested, who became firefighters,
cops, soldiers. And if that is put in, you talk
about guilt and shame, you know, a lot of them,
it was only when they realized that they were
a victim of this. They stopped blaming themselves.
You know, what did I do? You know, did I, I must've
been, you know, the reason that they did that.
No, it's okay to, in that situation, just be
a victim. You were young, you were preyed upon,
and this happened. But that is an extremely toxic
cancer that's buried in that chest for some of
our men and women. Yeah, absolutely. And going
through these courses and learning that as well
and hearing other people's stories. I talked
to one guy and I was like, it's really shitty,
but it's also kind of in a weird way. good because
then you're not alone like you don't wish it
upon anybody but you also don't want to be the
only one like it's just kind of a weird dynamic
right like it it helps i think both both of us
heal and like hey we're not the only one and
and this does happen and like you said you're
just you're just a little kid like you you look
back and and that's one thing one of the therapists
brought up was like you have a scared little
child inside of you but you're a grown man and
you're trying to keep both safe and that's a
very difficult thing to do and just forgiving
yourself and having that grace like it's not
your fault it legitimately was not my fault like
i didn't ask for it and i sure as hell couldn't
protect myself as a little nine -year -old against
a huge man so yeah it's it's rough going but
just facing it facing those demons and getting
after it and getting after the help and realizing
you're not alone is powerful absolutely well
another area that that i talk about a lot now
because i think it's so important and obviously
most of the guests that have come on here are
an example of this when we talk about mental
health in our profession i feel like we've just
got stuck on the stigma oh we've got to smash
the stigma well that doesn't mean anything of
course you know don't don't shame someone who's
struggling but there's so much more of this conversation
than that i think where there's real um you know,
hope there's almost excitement is the post -traumatic
growth going through this, this unique toolbox
that each one of us puts together, whether it's,
you know, Boulder Crest Struggle Well and EMDR
and psychedelics and, you know, canine therapy
or whatever that unique cocktail is for you.
The incredible growth that I see these men and
women have. And just like you said, this happened
to me and this happened to me and this call shook
me. I did this work and now I found value in
each of these. And I think, you know, like the
Japanese analogy, they fix the pottery with the
gold glue. I think that's it. I think there's
a lot of hope in simply doing the work and realizing
the other side is worth it. Like you will be
a better version of yourself, a better firefighter,
a better father, a better husband or wife. So
talk to me about that part. You know, when you
reflect back to when you were struggling, you
know who are you today and let's and let's kind
of you know unpack post -traumatic growth a little
bit more yeah the kintsugi ball that's a really
cool analogy i love that one i think the biggest
one that that was taught in both programs was
the just the trust and connection because in
both programs you do share and and like you said
you feel like you're gonna get judged and you
feel like you're gonna get shunned and people
are gonna turn their back on you and if they
really care about you that's not gonna happen
and hell even in those to uh experiences i had
just met these people and when everybody shared
all all that was said was thank you for sharing
there was no advice given there was no blame
given i mean even right now i could have told
you all all this stuff and historically right
like oh you went through all that you could have
just responded with well just suck it up man
you're good now like you got a good family you
got a good job like what's the problem like uh
it's more than that that's that's just the facade
i put on that's my instagram reel i want you
to see all the highlights but there's a lot more
going on because again that could turn into an
addiction of like why i need to be successful
to hide all this other stuff so really just the
vulnerability and i remember doing it uh with
one of my crews one time i was like i don't know
how this is gonna work but i'm just gonna be
super vulnerable around the dinner table and
tell them how i feel about these certain calls
and see what happens and holy cow did that just
open up the conversation and we became a super
tight crew and that was incredible i was like
oh It actually works. Like people want to hear
everyone's stories. And it's just the problem
of like, I got to be strong. I got to be, I got
to be trusted. I'm not going to be trusted if
I'm weak. And that's not true at all. So that's
the biggest thing I learned is like, I can still
go out and run a fire and I can still have it
affect me a certain way and just be open about
it. I can still run a bad medical call and let's,
let's dope it out and talk about it. Let's not
just bury it. I feel so much more present with
my family. I feel present myself. I've forgiven
myself. I'm open to hear other people's stories
and and a lot less judging as well. Like you
don't know what people are going through. And
just understanding that, you know, being on your
phone or hitting people up on text, that's not
the way to do it. You got to actually talk and
connect and be with people and and get past that
service level. conversations just open yourself
up that's how you're going to create deep conversations
if we just sat here and talked about you know
sports scores in the weather all day no one's
going to listen to that no one cares we're not
getting after uh what it means to be a human
not and forget about man a woman this that and
the other it's it's about human human connection
that's why fire isn't so so important you know
come together at the the bonfire and share your
feelings and whatnot so from where i was to where
i'm at where i was i was the fun loving party
drinker let's get after it but then i was home
alone i was a mess now i whom i'm good by myself
and good with others and that's a great feeling
of not feeling lonely when i am by myself and
just being trying to stop that trauma line for
my daughter as much as i can and just be a a
better person for myself and others like i can't
help anybody else i don't help myself Absolutely.
It's funny, I've been reflecting on courage and
cowardice a lot recently, I just posted an article,
which I'm sure, I'm sure upset some people, but
that's because they probably see themselves in
it. But if you actually think about, and again,
I'm six years removed now, but what I'm assuming
is probably still continuing to get better, which
is, you know, the safety as far as a fireside,
and the more infrequent that a lot of house fires
are coming. If you think about a firefighter's
24 hours, how often do we actually have to be
courageous operationally, running into a school
shooting, you know, going through a second floor
window and a VES search for a kid that you know
is in there? It's hardly ever. We train for it
and rightly so, but it's hardly ever. Where there's
courage, where we really need people to be that
brave man or woman is courageous vulnerability,
having the courage to actually open up, talk
about, you know, Not just struggling, just talking
about how fucking awful that call was. And not
even so much the victim, but the shrieks of the
family when we pulled that yellow sheet over
them. You know what I mean? Those kind of things.
And also the courage of advocating for an environment
that supports you. Because if we're just identifying
as the sooty -faced, mustachioed firefighter
leaning on a pike pole, that's a once in a blue
moon that you truly, truly get to do that. But
every single day you get to be courageous advocating
for your family's health and you get to be courageous
by opening the doors for others to talk by you
being vulnerable. Yeah, absolutely. That's what
I'm really proud of. My fire district is they
have adopted the struggle. Well, it's really
cool. Every class is opened up with our fire
chief telling his story in front of everybody.
So it's twofold, right? you can be in a position
of power and still be vulnerable you don't have
to keep a mask on to to make rank and be quote
unquote successful but also it also also opens
the doors like look the fire chief just spilled
his guts everyone else can too this is a place
of trust and yeah i think it's easier to um you
see in the struggle well courses and i've heard
it from other guys it's it's a little easier
for the firefighters to talk they want to talk
they want to open up about these things i i worry
about sometimes our police brothers and sisters
because they're mostly alone they're in their
squad cars by themselves at least we're either
on a ambo with another person or in the in the
engine talking it out and i think it's imperative
for the captains or whoever's leading on the
box or whoever the leader informal leader or
leader in the fire station for them to set the
tone you know you start shutting down these conversations
and don't let them happen that's It's not going
to go well at all. And then for the younger guys
and gals coming up, that's how they're going
to learn, just like we did. Like, oh, you don't
talk about that stuff. No, don't bring it up.
But if right away you're talking about it, opening
up, advocating for yourself, advocating for the
crew, advocating for patients, whoever, inviting
PD over for dinner because they just ran a crappy
call with you and building those relationships,
that's so much stronger. It's just like a family
unit. If you've got a family that you just. One
person's in each room watching TV and they're
not talking. That's not going to be a strong
family. There's no different from the fire service
as well. Like there's a part of me that wishes
we could bring back open bay bunks. So we're
always together, but there's some niceness as
well as having your own room, but it just has
to be done. We got to get back to being little
mini tribes and, and not tribes where we hate
other people and we're trying to fight, but just
these little tight knit groups that. you can
be trusted and have that connection and no one's
going to burn you like i've never been burned
i've never been burned for being uh authentic
and vulnerable as far as like who i am as a person
my feelings yeah if you mess up on the training
ground or you do some bonehead thing yeah you're
gonna get made fun of or second guess but when
you're no talking about how you feel who you
are your values and having these deep conversations
i just don't feel like that's a place anyone's
going to burn you and it's it's important to
do yeah where i see the people that do are actually
the ones that are struggling you know this is
kind of talking shit the whole time but so again
it's like you know as i say on here a lot it's
not my quote but i love it um you know don't
ask what what's wrong with you ask what happened
to you And I think that crotchety old fucker
is probably hurting. He's probably drinking himself
to sleep every night. So maybe rather than lash
out at them, kind of start figuring out how can
you access that person as well. But I mean, the
firehouse is set up in many, many ways for us
to be vulnerable, for us to have conversations.
And if you look at our forefathers, what they
did well, they had a dog in the station. I don't
know why we got rid of that. or this bullshit
lawsuit mentality that we have in this country.
But then also the dining room table. Like I think
individual bunks are great, but just have a policy
where all, you know, there's times where you
eat together, you sit together, you know, work
out together, play volleyball, whatever it is.
And then, yeah, absolutely. Go in your bunk and,
you know, call your kids. And obviously when
you sleep, you shouldn't get woken up by other
rigs that are running. So that's what makes those
bunks great. But yeah, if you're going to have
this kind of layout in the station. create a
culture where during the day you're all together
because that's what you should be doing and that
gives you then the opportunity to actually start
sharing stories and offload some of the stuff
that you just went through yeah absolutely i
just went to a teach back for the struggle course
and it was pretty cool one of the captains was
uh talking about how they're gonna because they
i mean there's so many different practices they
teach you in these courses i mean we could spend
hours talking about it but one of the things
he was going to adopt is hey we come back from
our four days off One of the first things I'm
asked to cruise is like, how was your week? How's
your wellness triangle? Cause they talk about
your wellness triangle, your mind, body, mind,
body, financial and spirit. How's your triangle
doing? Is there anything that happened on your
days off that you want to talk about? Is there
anything that happened that may affect your performance
or just how you want to be interacted with? Are
you on edge? Like, and just going through the
table and letting them do that because. if a
lot of people went through the course and they're
speaking the same language and that's really
cool and putting gratitude boards up in the in
the house and i know some of the police stations
have put gratitude boards up and just simple
things to put up there and it's a really cool
uh barometer as well right like if i got a guy
that or gal that's um every day they put gratitude
up there or some cool quote and three days in
a row they don't put anything in there moping
around i know something happened and we're gonna
have a conversation it's not a i'm gonna come
down on you what's going on i need you to perform
conversation it's gonna be like hey i've noticed
this how you doing what happened what's going
on so just meeting everybody with uh with wonder
instead of questioning like i wonder what's going
on with them i wonder what happened absolutely
well you mentioned about your department adopting
struggle well what does that look like um so
i don't have all the ins and outs but they're
they're hosting the struggle well and i think
their goal i think the ultimate goal is to get
everybody through but they don't want to push
it and i can't speak too much on them i'm been
there but what i've seen and heard is the goal
is to get everybody through especially those
that want to get through and the really cool
thing is they've opened it up so they'll fit
it with mostly people from the fire district
but they've opened up to local pd other fire
and other people that want to get in there too
so it's just not a hey if you're not a part of
us you can't get this they see the value in it
and they want to expose as many people as they
can to it as well because I was able to sneak
some of the military members into a few classes,
and that was very beneficial. Absolutely. Now,
did you mention that you transitioned back into
the military for a while? Yes. So I got out of
active duty in 08, took a little break, and then
bounced around between the Guard and Reserve.
So right after my father passed, and this was
some reflection I did, I realized why I was so
hesitant to go back to fire, why I isolated from
the fire service. I was like, oh, I just... I'm
going to do this military thing and this is what
I need to be doing. So I was on orders for five
years and that's coming to an end in May. So
I'll retire from the Air National Guard and then
go back to the firehouse in May and do some training.
However long that's going to take and get back
on the rig. Brilliant. So a lot of back and forth.
Beautiful. Well, I want to throw some closing
questions at you before I let you go if you've
got time. Yeah, of course. All right. The first
one I'd love to ask, is there a book or are there
books that you love to recommend? It can be related
to our discussion today or completely unrelated.
Yeah. So shameless plug for you. Definitely the
kinder book. I mean, that was incredible. I really
enjoyed that. And I liked our back and forth
about that. I almost ripped you off if it didn't
end the way I wanted it to. The Struggle Well
book, there's actually a Struggle Well book,
which is pretty incredible. Comfort Crisis is
great. And then Dr. Edgar, The Gift and The Choice.
Those are really cool. Talking about the difference
between being a victim and living in victimhood
because we're all going to go through something.
It's just how do we end up on the other side?
You know, like the fun books that I wrote down
was like Any Jack Car. Manhunt's pretty cool.
It's about the assassination of Abraham Lincoln.
Very detailed. That's a fun one. Never Ending
Story. I rewatched that movie and realized how
traumatic that movie is when I was little. And
that book was pretty cool. Beautiful. So for
books, that's what I got. And then the Ryan Holiday,
the stoic one's always good. Well, you mentioned
Neverending Story, the film. What about other
films and documentaries that you love? Growing
Up in Chicago, Last Dance was incredible. You
know, the Chicago Bulls story, that was cool.
And I just watched that Unstoppable movie with
the wrestler from ASU with one leg. That was
pretty cool. I mean, most of our movies now are
Moana or Clifford the Big Red Dog and Tumble
Leaf with my daughter. Not a lot of adult movies
going on right now. Yeah, I just watched that
documentary as well. I mean, sorry, The Unstoppable
as well, and it was amazing. I'm going to see
if I can get the actual guy on the show. Oh,
that'd be cool. That'd be really cool. All right,
well, speaking of amazing people, is there a
person that you recommend to come on this podcast
as a guest to speak to the first responders,
military, and associated professions of the world?
Oh, man, I'd have to throw out probably Ken Falk,
the founder of Older Crest Foundation. that would
probably be really cool. Some of the people that
I've guided with and that I've been involved
with Boulder Crest and struggle well, some of
those guides would be pretty powerful because
there's some police, there's some military and
fire. It's a good mix. If able, Dr. Tedeschi
and Dr. Calhoun, the ones that coined PTG and
started that academic research. as well that
would be pretty cool to hear their story because
it's an incredible program it did a lot for me
beautiful all right well then the last question
before we make sure everyone knows where to find
you and boulder crest what do you do to decompress
oh so i just started uh jiu jitsu about two years
ago that's been incredible i was scared to death
to do it i've wanted to do it for a long time
and so that's been really helpful hiking rucking
uh working out so most of the things i do to
decompress a lot of daddy daughter time time
with the family so that's very helpful meditation
all the stuff i learned through warrior path
and uh struggle well journaling brilliant all
right well then for people listening if they
want to reach out to you or find you online where
are the best places for that uh probably nowhere
to be quite honest i don't i don't follow my
social media anymore i don't have any big platforms
If for some random reason someone wanted to talk
to me, I guess they could reach out to you and
get my email. But yeah, that's a tough one. I
don't feel that I'm that special. I'm still super
honored to be here. And yeah, I don't really
have a big platform. Like, hey, come find me.
Yeah, well, it doesn't matter at all. I mean,
that's good. It's funny because I was doing research
before. before the show and i'm like oh shit
i actually don't know much about tony's tony's
life because most people have a linkedin or something
but i mean for us in the fire service you know
what's the point you're not really trying to
sell anything you know what i mean you're not
networking in business so so yeah um what about
boulder crest uh struggle well warrior's path
where are the best kind of places to find those
yeah just i think just google boulder crest it's
all under there google struggle well warrior
path or boulder crest and all the information's
on there um you know to apply for warrior path
and then so another one so the warrior path is
mostly focused around veterans but then they
have the struggle well experience which is for
first responders so kind of same thing with different
cohort because it's very tight -knit group there's
eight of us in the course and we're still every
day we talk on signal and it's uh the cool thing
about the warrior path and struggle well experience
is it's not a catch and release it's a five to
seven day in person and then it's still another
90 days after that where you have biweekly meetings
with your team and daily homework. So it's a
very long process, which is very helpful. So
just Google those and then struggle well. You
can Google that one as well. And that one's more
of the five day in person that's hosted by an
agency. So if your local agency is doing it,
get after it. If something you want to do, pitch
it. There's plenty of POCs on there of like how
to how to get it. to your organization you know
i know they go out and do i think they call it
executive days one and two day exposure to the
uh the decision makers and show them what it's
all about and it goes from there but definitely
powerful brilliant Well, mate, I want to say
thank you so much. I mean, not only for talking
about, you know, Struggle Well and Boulder Crest
and all these solutions, these tools that people
can add again to their toolbox and kudos to your
department for actually bringing that in themselves,
but also to underline your courageous vulnerability
for going to these places. and opening the door
and talking about these traumas that you had
early and then this incredible strength that
you've gleaned from them now working through.
So I want to thank you so, so much for being
so generous with your time and coming on the
Behind the Shield podcast today. Yeah, appreciate
it, brother. Hopefully I didn't disappoint. This
was a fantastic opportunity. I'm just glad to
have this time with you and tell a story. Hopefully
you can help somebody. We all got something going
on. I know from the outside, they look at me
like successful in the military, wearing the
red helmet, like, oh, that guy's got his shit
together. It couldn't be further from the truth.
It was a nice mask I wore for a long time, and
I'm ready to peel it back and be open and help
anybody that's willing to get that help. At the
end of the day, we're all going to experience
something bad, and you can call it big T's, little
t's, whatever name you want to put on it. How
do we overcome it? And we're all strong enough
to do that. I mean, that's why we're human. And
we've all survived 100 % of our trauma so far.
So there's light at the end of the tunnel. Some
tunnels are longer than others, but keep pressing.
You can get through it. It's a lot of work, but
it's worth it to live the good life that we deserve.