WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.740 This episode is sponsored by TeamBuilder, yet 00:00:02.740 --> 00:00:04.860 another company that's doing great things for 00:00:04.860 --> 00:00:07.679 the first responder community. As a strength 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:09.960 and conditioning coach myself who also trains 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:13.140 tactical athletes, dissemination of wellness 00:00:13.140 --> 00:00:15.320 information is one of the biggest challenges. 00:00:15.980 --> 00:00:18.519 Now TeamBuildr is the premier strength and conditioning 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:21.539 software for tactical athletes and there are 00:00:21.539 --> 00:00:24.839 several features that really impress me. Firstly, 00:00:24.920 --> 00:00:27.780 there is a full exercise library. So you, the 00:00:27.780 --> 00:00:29.940 personal trainer, does not have to create that 00:00:29.940 --> 00:00:33.039 within your own department. 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To me, it's imperative 00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:05.540 that we as a profession start tracking our people 00:01:05.540 --> 00:01:09.439 from day one and then over the full span of their 00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:12.659 career, therefore catching potential wellness 00:01:12.659 --> 00:01:16.200 issues and injuries before they happen. Now, 00:01:16.219 --> 00:01:18.439 if you want to try Team Builder, they are offering 00:01:18.439 --> 00:01:20.760 you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast, 00:01:21.180 --> 00:01:25.359 a free 14 -day trial to experience all of the 00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:27.900 features. And if you want to take a deeper dive 00:01:27.900 --> 00:01:32.439 into TeamBuildr, listen to episode 1032 with 00:01:32.439 --> 00:01:36.459 Melissa Mercado or go to teambuilder .com. And 00:01:36.459 --> 00:01:37.980 I'll spell that to you because it's not as you 00:01:37.980 --> 00:01:44.469 think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome 00:01:44.469 --> 00:01:46.209 to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, 00:01:46.269 --> 00:01:48.109 my name is James Gearing, and this week it is 00:01:48.109 --> 00:01:50.909 my absolute honor to welcome on the show Army 00:01:50.909 --> 00:01:54.430 Ranger veteran and co -author of Perseverance 00:01:54.430 --> 00:01:58.409 is Greater Than Endurance, Brandon Young. Now, 00:01:58.430 --> 00:02:00.989 in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics, 00:02:01.049 --> 00:02:04.650 from his unique journey into the military, Ranger 00:02:04.650 --> 00:02:08.669 selection, the horrors of war, moral injury, 00:02:09.129 --> 00:02:13.770 altruism, leadership. the difference between 00:02:13.770 --> 00:02:17.949 enduring and persevering, growth, and so much 00:02:17.949 --> 00:02:20.870 more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation, 00:02:21.110 --> 00:02:23.629 as I say every week, please just take a moment, 00:02:23.770 --> 00:02:26.889 go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe 00:02:26.889 --> 00:02:30.330 to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating. 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:33.900 Every single five -star rating truly does elevate 00:02:33.900 --> 00:02:36.539 this podcast, therefore making it easier for 00:02:36.539 --> 00:02:39.919 others to find. And this is a free library of 00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:44.439 well over 1 ,000 episodes now. So all I ask in 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:47.340 return is that you help share these incredible 00:02:47.340 --> 00:02:50.099 men and women's stories so I can get them to 00:02:50.099 --> 00:02:53.020 every single person on planet Earth who needs 00:02:53.020 --> 00:02:56.620 to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce 00:02:56.620 --> 00:03:20.340 to you Brandon Young. Enjoy. Well, Brandon, I 00:03:20.340 --> 00:03:22.939 want to start by saying thank you so, so much 00:03:22.939 --> 00:03:26.139 to D .D. Finder for making the connection. And 00:03:26.139 --> 00:03:28.360 I want to welcome you onto the Behind the Shield 00:03:28.360 --> 00:03:32.219 podcast today. Well, thanks for having me, James. 00:03:32.340 --> 00:03:34.840 And, you know, big shout out, big love to D .D. 00:03:34.860 --> 00:03:37.240 Finder. What a great, great, great man. Absolutely. 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:40.900 And a great author, too. I love his book. You 00:03:40.900 --> 00:03:43.340 ain't kidding. So where on planet Earth are we 00:03:43.340 --> 00:03:47.669 finding you this afternoon? I am on the outskirts 00:03:47.669 --> 00:03:51.189 of Denver in a little community called Roxborough. 00:03:51.389 --> 00:03:53.969 So I live at about 6 ,000 feet. I'm at the base 00:03:53.969 --> 00:03:56.669 of the foothills of the Rocky Mountains. Brilliant. 00:03:56.770 --> 00:03:58.770 Well, let's start at the very beginning of your 00:03:58.770 --> 00:04:01.189 timeline. So tell me where you were born and 00:04:01.189 --> 00:04:02.750 tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, 00:04:03.030 --> 00:04:06.810 what your parents did, how many siblings. Okay. 00:04:07.930 --> 00:04:11.810 So I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area and 00:04:11.810 --> 00:04:16.899 I am the youngest of three. My father, when he 00:04:16.899 --> 00:04:23.379 was around, was a pretty unwell gentleman. I 00:04:23.379 --> 00:04:27.980 would say that he was mostly addicted to wealth, 00:04:28.180 --> 00:04:30.759 power, and women and did anything that he could 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:34.540 to chase all of those until he finally chased 00:04:34.540 --> 00:04:38.819 away and went off on us when I was 11. So my 00:04:38.819 --> 00:04:42.160 mother raised three kids in the most expensive 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:46.089 geography in the country. And being the youngest 00:04:46.089 --> 00:04:49.029 of three, it can be a little bit rough, you know, 00:04:49.050 --> 00:04:52.769 shit rolls downhill. So I kind of grew up like 00:04:52.769 --> 00:04:55.389 a bit of a lit fuse. I was a pretty angry kid, 00:04:55.610 --> 00:04:58.490 got into a lot of fights, got into a lot of trouble, 00:04:58.550 --> 00:05:03.449 and was very fortunate that I found martial arts, 00:05:03.529 --> 00:05:08.509 got into Muay Thai kickboxing. and Western boxing 00:05:08.509 --> 00:05:11.589 and some different forms of Kung Fu at the Boxing 00:05:11.589 --> 00:05:14.269 Chole Foot Kung Fu Association in Fremont, California. 00:05:14.889 --> 00:05:17.170 And that really helped me out. That really kept 00:05:17.170 --> 00:05:21.290 me off of the streets and fighting in a ring, 00:05:21.449 --> 00:05:23.009 so to speak, where I should be fighting. And 00:05:23.009 --> 00:05:26.110 then from there, I graduated high school, joined 00:05:26.110 --> 00:05:28.029 the United States Army, and after completing 00:05:28.029 --> 00:05:30.149 all the prerequisites, was assigned to the 2nd 00:05:30.149 --> 00:05:32.589 Ranger Battalion, where I would remain in the 00:05:32.589 --> 00:05:36.779 Rangers for just shy of a decade. I had an Uber 00:05:36.779 --> 00:05:39.279 ride a while ago now, and this will tie into 00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:41.860 what you just said. And the gentleman that drove 00:05:41.860 --> 00:05:45.620 us home was a beautiful, beautiful soul. He was 00:05:45.620 --> 00:05:50.480 from San Francisco originally. And we ended up 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:52.680 having such a great conversation that Uber sent 00:05:52.680 --> 00:05:55.240 him and us a kind of, are you getting murdered 00:05:55.240 --> 00:05:57.000 alert? Because we were sitting in the parking 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:58.939 lot talking still. And we both went, no, no, 00:05:58.939 --> 00:06:01.339 we're good. We're just chatting. But he made 00:06:01.339 --> 00:06:05.839 an incredible point. In San Francisco. When the 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:09.560 cost of living is so high, the ability to fall 00:06:09.560 --> 00:06:12.839 into the poverty area is a lot greater than if 00:06:12.839 --> 00:06:15.120 you were in, say, where I'm living now in Ocala. 00:06:15.459 --> 00:06:19.519 Talk to me about that. Because of the affluence, 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:23.560 because of the overpricing of the real estate 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:28.139 there, how easy is it for people to really be 00:06:28.139 --> 00:06:30.199 struggling even though they're in such an affluent 00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:33.779 area of the country? Yeah, very easy, I will 00:06:33.779 --> 00:06:36.220 say. So my mother on a high school education 00:06:36.220 --> 00:06:40.259 was working four jobs just to keep us kids where 00:06:40.259 --> 00:06:43.959 we were in the same community. I was a free and 00:06:43.959 --> 00:06:47.879 reduced lunch kid. I was getting donations from 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:51.540 our school to go to the dances and all that kind 00:06:51.540 --> 00:06:56.000 of stuff. And I would say that. at face value 00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:58.579 you look at a community like the east bay of 00:06:58.579 --> 00:07:02.000 san francisco 80s 90s massive explosion of wealth 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:06.300 high affluence culture and at face value just 00:07:06.300 --> 00:07:09.420 like your uber driver had mentioned it looks 00:07:09.420 --> 00:07:11.360 like everything is just lovely you know this 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:13.779 is like this is the this is the palace right 00:07:13.779 --> 00:07:16.449 here you know everything is great But there are 00:07:16.449 --> 00:07:19.509 so many people who fall through the cracks of 00:07:19.509 --> 00:07:21.889 poverty for a number of reasons, you know, whether 00:07:21.889 --> 00:07:24.430 they be single parent homes. And I think something 00:07:24.430 --> 00:07:27.069 like 50 % of homes in America or children in 00:07:27.069 --> 00:07:29.290 America are being raised in single parent homes. 00:07:30.750 --> 00:07:33.790 It's tough. And so for me, I felt like I was 00:07:33.790 --> 00:07:38.069 a little bit of a outsider on the inside of the 00:07:38.069 --> 00:07:41.810 affluence culture because, you know, like I didn't. 00:07:42.220 --> 00:07:45.480 I didn't have the, you know, the nice clothes. 00:07:45.660 --> 00:07:48.699 I didn't have the nice cars. I worked at the 00:07:48.699 --> 00:07:51.300 fruit stand. So there was this fruit stand in 00:07:51.300 --> 00:07:53.160 Fremont, California called the Nagata Brothers 00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:56.579 Farm. And the Nagata Brothers were these Japanese 00:07:56.579 --> 00:08:00.139 brothers who had established this fruit stand. 00:08:01.100 --> 00:08:04.319 And it was a little bit of like the land of misfit 00:08:04.319 --> 00:08:07.930 toys in the sense that. All of the guys working 00:08:07.930 --> 00:08:10.410 there, the guys and gals, most of us were kind 00:08:10.410 --> 00:08:13.730 of on the outside of that affluence culture, 00:08:13.810 --> 00:08:16.389 started working when we were 13, 14, because 00:08:16.389 --> 00:08:20.529 we had to. And the blessing in that was that 00:08:20.529 --> 00:08:25.350 I learned a lot about hard work. These brothers 00:08:25.350 --> 00:08:30.889 were, I mean, saints. My first car, Bob Nagata 00:08:30.889 --> 00:08:34.299 bought for me. from his sister for 500 it was 00:08:34.299 --> 00:08:37.720 a 1984 honda accord lx i called it the x -wing 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:41.700 it had 250 000 miles on it but i didn't have 00:08:41.700 --> 00:08:44.399 a father to you know teach me how to drive or 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:46.659 shave or anything like that my big brother was 00:08:46.659 --> 00:08:49.179 the one who kind of showed me how to shave and 00:08:49.179 --> 00:08:52.200 you know do all that kind of stuff and um and 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:56.799 so it's easy to fall into the into that trap 00:08:56.799 --> 00:09:00.799 of poverty amidst an affluent culture. And truth 00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:03.240 be told is I just, I just felt like a total outsider, 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:05.519 even though I had great friends. I mean, I had 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:08.120 wonderful friends who really kind of held me 00:09:08.120 --> 00:09:10.360 together. I mean, it was, it was really a community 00:09:10.360 --> 00:09:16.100 of amazing people. Some who are actually, you 00:09:16.100 --> 00:09:18.360 know, in the fire services, one of them, fire 00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:21.360 captain of Manteca, Derek Leong, big ups to my 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:25.299 OG best friend from school. But But, you know, 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:28.019 it's it's easy to fall into that. And it just 00:09:28.019 --> 00:09:31.539 kind of I think I learned very early on the importance 00:09:31.539 --> 00:09:34.779 and the power of genuine relationships and community. 00:09:35.419 --> 00:09:37.820 I had quite a dichotomy growing up because I 00:09:37.820 --> 00:09:40.039 grew up on a farm in England. And if you'd walked 00:09:40.039 --> 00:09:42.600 up the drive and seen this majestic three story 00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:45.320 house, as most people rightly thought, oh, they 00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:47.360 must be extremely well off. My dad was a veterinary 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:51.240 surgeon. But on paper, there was that the reality 00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:53.830 was day to day. that there were a lot of times 00:09:53.830 --> 00:09:55.870 we wore hand -me -down clothes. You know, there 00:09:55.870 --> 00:09:58.309 were times my siblings were just talking recently 00:09:58.309 --> 00:10:00.769 and we talked about flour cakes. And I'd never 00:10:00.769 --> 00:10:02.649 thought about this, that flour cakes are just 00:10:02.649 --> 00:10:05.649 flour and water, I think sometimes an egg. And 00:10:05.649 --> 00:10:07.470 that would be our dinner sometimes. Never even 00:10:07.470 --> 00:10:09.490 crossed my mind that's because that was all that 00:10:09.490 --> 00:10:12.169 was in the pantry. And again, so you've got these 00:10:12.169 --> 00:10:14.490 people thinking that you're really wealthy behind 00:10:14.490 --> 00:10:17.570 closed doors. You are extremely wealthy as far 00:10:17.570 --> 00:10:19.850 as quality of life because you live on a farm. 00:10:20.250 --> 00:10:22.309 You know, you've got these fields and these animals 00:10:22.309 --> 00:10:25.730 and my dad's healing. But as far as what people 00:10:25.730 --> 00:10:28.669 think of wealth and, you know, you know, frequent 00:10:28.669 --> 00:10:32.350 vacations and eating out as a family, none of 00:10:32.350 --> 00:10:34.409 that, none of that. So it was a real kind of 00:10:34.409 --> 00:10:37.309 juxtaposition because you were seen one way and 00:10:37.309 --> 00:10:39.289 people had no idea that actually behind closed 00:10:39.289 --> 00:10:42.250 doors, not all the time, but sometimes it was 00:10:42.250 --> 00:10:47.970 a very different story. Yeah. So you mentioned 00:10:47.970 --> 00:10:50.940 about your father. I really like exploring the 00:10:50.940 --> 00:10:52.899 kind of multi -generational element because these 00:10:52.899 --> 00:10:55.379 are dominoes and they tend to go through generations. 00:10:56.539 --> 00:11:00.299 Have you ever had the ability to reflect on the 00:11:00.299 --> 00:11:03.539 upbringing that he had that created this void 00:11:03.539 --> 00:11:06.500 that he was constantly chasing to fill, even 00:11:06.500 --> 00:11:09.240 though actually the real nurturing element was 00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:12.039 his family around him the whole time? It's a 00:11:12.039 --> 00:11:14.240 really good question. When I was in grad school 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:16.919 at Denver Seminary, we did a project called a 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:20.139 genogram. And in a genogram, you kind of map 00:11:20.139 --> 00:11:22.519 out your family history. You map out some of 00:11:22.519 --> 00:11:25.299 the kind of the big moments, the things that 00:11:25.299 --> 00:11:29.620 that affected. And the hard thing about my father 00:11:29.620 --> 00:11:32.419 and filling in those blanks is that you never 00:11:32.419 --> 00:11:35.159 really knew what was true because I don't think 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:39.440 he actually knew what was true. You know, I think 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:41.889 he was just a really unwell person. is really 00:11:41.889 --> 00:11:46.049 what it comes down to. And that's sad. You know, 00:11:46.070 --> 00:11:51.470 I tried really hard when I was 18 and I got to 00:11:51.470 --> 00:11:54.490 the Army. So my dad had been in the Army. And 00:11:54.490 --> 00:11:57.289 my whole upbringing, he would introduce the three 00:11:57.289 --> 00:12:00.210 of us. So my brother's the oldest, my sister 00:12:00.210 --> 00:12:02.289 is the middle, and then I'm the youngest. And 00:12:02.289 --> 00:12:04.909 he would introduce us as his son, his daughter, 00:12:04.950 --> 00:12:08.399 and his Marine. And I was always, you know, I 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:10.440 was the Marine, whatever that, you know, meant 00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:13.039 in his eyes. And he would tell me all, you know, 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:15.580 these stories. He'd always hang on to this one 00:12:15.580 --> 00:12:18.080 story about, you know, his time in service when 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:21.360 he was a Green Beret. And when I got to the Army, 00:12:21.419 --> 00:12:27.259 when I was 18, I said, look, we, you've kind 00:12:27.259 --> 00:12:29.559 of opted out on the whole being my father thing. 00:12:29.980 --> 00:12:34.440 But we have this commonality as in terms of being 00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:38.080 soldiers. I'd love to have a relationship with 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:42.320 you. Let's see how that goes. And after a couple 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:47.019 of years of that and, you know, asking kind of 00:12:47.019 --> 00:12:49.960 like, what was the, tell me the, tell me the 00:12:49.960 --> 00:12:51.519 truth. You know, he used to say like, you know, 00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:53.320 I'll tell you about that someday over a beer 00:12:53.320 --> 00:12:56.480 when you're old enough. And when I was old enough 00:12:56.480 --> 00:12:58.259 and we were sitting there over a beer, what, 00:12:58.379 --> 00:13:00.379 and I started to ask like, you know, second, 00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:03.860 third, fourth level questions. based on knowledge 00:13:03.860 --> 00:13:07.759 now as a soldier, what I came to understand is 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:11.519 that not only was he not a Green Beret, which 00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:14.100 is stolen valor, as he completely lied about 00:13:14.100 --> 00:13:18.179 that, but he benefited when he was a personnel 00:13:18.179 --> 00:13:22.840 clerk in Germany, he would take bribes to switch 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:25.600 out names on the manifests going over to Vietnam. 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:30.799 And I just looked at that and I said, you know 00:13:30.799 --> 00:13:33.340 what? you're just not the kind of person that 00:13:33.340 --> 00:13:36.980 i associate with you know so i i think we're 00:13:36.980 --> 00:13:40.480 i think we're good here and it was just hard 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:43.399 to really understand i know that his father was 00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:45.860 in the army i don't know what he did in the army 00:13:45.860 --> 00:13:50.059 he told me that he was you know like a world 00:13:50.059 --> 00:13:56.000 war ii ranger probably not um but i don't know 00:13:56.000 --> 00:13:58.460 i just i don't really know you could never really 00:13:59.179 --> 00:14:01.799 discern what the truth was. And so I think that 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:10.399 at some point, there is a choice, right? We talk 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:12.399 about this all the time when you're persevering, 00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:17.019 right? There is a choice. You can accept the 00:14:17.019 --> 00:14:19.059 reality of the situation in front of you. You 00:14:19.059 --> 00:14:20.860 can accept what you can and cannot control, and 00:14:20.860 --> 00:14:23.960 then you get to make a choice. And I think the 00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:27.159 choice that I made was just to surrender any... 00:14:28.790 --> 00:14:32.370 Any hope that I would ever get a clear answer 00:14:32.370 --> 00:14:36.370 on his upbringing and surrender any hope that 00:14:36.370 --> 00:14:40.389 I would ever get kind of like the apology. The, 00:14:40.389 --> 00:14:45.549 you know, recognition of of how what he did affected 00:14:45.549 --> 00:14:49.809 all of us. And, you know, that was that was the 00:14:49.809 --> 00:14:52.509 opportunity that I had. And it's the choice that 00:14:52.509 --> 00:14:55.009 I took. I'll just kind of wrap this story by 00:14:55.009 --> 00:15:00.179 telling you that on his deathbed. So, um, I flew 00:15:00.179 --> 00:15:04.259 out and it was kind of, you know, he was dying 00:15:04.259 --> 00:15:06.299 of cancer and it was one of these things where, 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:08.340 you know, every now and every couple of years 00:15:08.340 --> 00:15:11.320 we'd get this like, oh, your father has got cancer. 00:15:11.379 --> 00:15:13.919 He's dying. He's whatever. Um, and it's just 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:17.980 like, okay, you know, um, not really sure what's 00:15:17.980 --> 00:15:21.259 true. What's not true. This time he was dying 00:15:21.259 --> 00:15:26.190 and we came out. And I just remember I was really 00:15:26.190 --> 00:15:31.509 seeking in terms of my faith. I had had a lot 00:15:31.509 --> 00:15:33.809 of experiences as a child, a lot of experiences 00:15:33.809 --> 00:15:36.710 in the war where it was kind of like I got nowhere 00:15:36.710 --> 00:15:39.230 else to look but up. And I'm kind of crying out 00:15:39.230 --> 00:15:42.090 to God to save me. And so I was kind of on a 00:15:42.090 --> 00:15:44.169 journey in that regard. And I'll never forget, 00:15:44.250 --> 00:15:46.309 I was in the hospital. He's intubated. He's in 00:15:46.309 --> 00:15:49.009 the bed. And I said, does anybody have like a 00:15:49.009 --> 00:15:52.049 Bible? Like, I don't have a Bible, you know. 00:15:52.509 --> 00:15:54.289 you know, it's not really the life that I kind 00:15:54.289 --> 00:15:57.230 of grew up in. And I said, there's this like 00:15:57.230 --> 00:15:59.149 verse that's rolling around in my brain that 00:15:59.149 --> 00:16:01.889 I just can't like let go of. And someone's like, 00:16:01.950 --> 00:16:04.330 yeah, here, Tina, take this. And so I read over 00:16:04.330 --> 00:16:08.850 him Romans 12, 19, which says, vengeance is mine, 00:16:08.909 --> 00:16:12.570 says the Lord, do not repay. It is mine to repay. 00:16:12.750 --> 00:16:14.789 And I read that over him and said, hey, look, 00:16:14.830 --> 00:16:16.909 I forgive you for everything that you ever did 00:16:16.909 --> 00:16:22.009 to me. And, you know. I leave that here in this 00:16:22.009 --> 00:16:24.769 room. And that was a real blessing for me and 00:16:24.769 --> 00:16:27.990 a real it was just, you know, one of many, I 00:16:27.990 --> 00:16:30.470 would say, kind of hilltop moments or, you know, 00:16:30.470 --> 00:16:33.210 crucible moments and choices that I made along 00:16:33.210 --> 00:16:36.330 my journey that has that has led to a lot of 00:16:36.330 --> 00:16:40.309 growth and healing. I've had a similar experience 00:16:40.309 --> 00:16:44.169 and it's the exact same mindset. I think I remember 00:16:44.169 --> 00:16:48.259 Wayne Dyer saying, you know, when there's. The 00:16:48.259 --> 00:16:50.539 struggle in your life, you know, it's just as 00:16:50.539 --> 00:16:53.220 you touched on. You either can control it or 00:16:53.220 --> 00:16:55.539 you can't control it. If you can control it, 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:58.620 then make those changes. Change whatever that 00:16:58.620 --> 00:17:01.980 issue is. If you can't, then move on. And it 00:17:01.980 --> 00:17:04.859 was the same thing, like investing time and trying 00:17:04.859 --> 00:17:07.799 to get change and being there. But at a certain 00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:10.359 point, just saying, okay, that was enough. You 00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:13.799 know, I'm not expecting this lofty goal of, you 00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:16.079 know, tears and apologies and all these kind 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:19.670 of things. It's just, you know. Love one way 00:17:19.670 --> 00:17:22.750 regardless. But it's like I remember, again, 00:17:22.829 --> 00:17:25.210 Wayne Dyer saying, if you hold a door open for 00:17:25.210 --> 00:17:26.990 someone, they don't say thank you on the way 00:17:26.990 --> 00:17:29.309 out and you get pissed off, you are holding the 00:17:29.309 --> 00:17:31.250 door for the wrong reason. Yeah, that's right. 00:17:31.349 --> 00:17:34.630 So hold the door regardless. That's right. And 00:17:34.630 --> 00:17:38.450 for me, I felt like it was, I felt like there 00:17:38.450 --> 00:17:41.529 was a block of bitterness that I did not want 00:17:41.529 --> 00:17:45.529 to hold anymore. And I felt like it was more 00:17:45.529 --> 00:17:49.410 me releasing that and surrendering and saying, 00:17:49.670 --> 00:17:53.690 look, I don't think I really understood it then. 00:17:53.769 --> 00:17:56.930 I have spent a lot of time in reflection since 00:17:56.930 --> 00:18:01.349 that time and growth. In reality, I think that 00:18:01.349 --> 00:18:03.890 it was a block between my heavenly father and 00:18:03.890 --> 00:18:06.309 me as opposed to my earthly father and me. My 00:18:06.309 --> 00:18:08.390 earthly father opted out and there's nothing 00:18:08.390 --> 00:18:11.809 I could do about that. What it did is it created, 00:18:11.970 --> 00:18:15.049 and I think a lot of people experience this, 00:18:15.150 --> 00:18:20.750 is when you get left behind by a parent, oftentimes 00:18:20.750 --> 00:18:25.829 it ends up being a father, you inherit this sense 00:18:25.829 --> 00:18:28.970 of worthlessness. And that's what I inherited 00:18:28.970 --> 00:18:32.529 when I was a young guy, is I inherited a sense 00:18:32.529 --> 00:18:36.289 of worthlessness that I thought... Um, I, all 00:18:36.289 --> 00:18:39.730 I'm good for is destruction. And so I'm going 00:18:39.730 --> 00:18:42.670 to pursue that path and it's going to lead me 00:18:42.670 --> 00:18:45.150 where it leads me. And, you know, I, I fully 00:18:45.150 --> 00:18:48.549 expected I, when I joined the Rangers, there 00:18:48.549 --> 00:18:52.470 was no version of my Ranger story that concluded 00:18:52.470 --> 00:18:55.009 with me living on the back end of it. I just 00:18:55.009 --> 00:18:56.390 didn't think it was going to happen. I didn't 00:18:56.390 --> 00:18:59.130 think I'd live past 25. And I thought that that 00:18:59.130 --> 00:19:02.690 was okay because in that. culture of affluence. 00:19:02.730 --> 00:19:06.349 I looked around and I saw families that said, 00:19:06.450 --> 00:19:08.930 I love you to each other. They hugged, they had 00:19:08.930 --> 00:19:11.230 dinners together. They went on vacations together. 00:19:11.390 --> 00:19:14.250 They wore the North face and all the cool things. 00:19:14.390 --> 00:19:18.589 And I was just like, great. Clearly they were 00:19:18.589 --> 00:19:23.329 made for that. I wasn't, but I can fight for 00:19:23.329 --> 00:19:27.170 their ability to enjoy that. And that was one 00:19:27.170 --> 00:19:30.210 of my motives for, for really going in is, is. 00:19:30.809 --> 00:19:34.109 You know, like these Americans deserve the freedom 00:19:34.109 --> 00:19:36.309 that we have been afforded and somebody's got 00:19:36.309 --> 00:19:40.430 to fight for it. So here am I, send me. Before 00:19:40.430 --> 00:19:43.990 we go into your military journey, how has your 00:19:43.990 --> 00:19:48.990 perception of your father's fatherhood affected 00:19:48.990 --> 00:20:00.579 you as a father? I mean, so much of my journey 00:20:00.579 --> 00:20:05.160 as a father, I would say early on was colored 00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:10.180 by my father and his father, you know, the father 00:20:10.180 --> 00:20:14.799 -father and the cascade of those impacts. I think 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:17.500 he must have been deeply wounded by his father 00:20:17.500 --> 00:20:21.460 when my father was a young man. I can only imagine. 00:20:21.700 --> 00:20:25.339 I can only imagine he was deeply wounded by... 00:20:25.869 --> 00:20:29.049 My grandmother, I mean, she was not a well lady 00:20:29.049 --> 00:20:33.430 either. You know, when my father married my mother. 00:20:33.690 --> 00:20:36.910 So my mother is Jewish. My father grew up in 00:20:36.910 --> 00:20:41.009 an Episcopalian house, I think. And my father 00:20:41.009 --> 00:20:44.130 converted to Judaism to marry my mother. And 00:20:44.130 --> 00:20:47.269 his mother refused to talk to him for years. 00:20:47.329 --> 00:20:51.410 And when she did, called him Jew boy. And so 00:20:51.410 --> 00:20:54.390 there's just. something's going on there that 00:20:54.390 --> 00:20:58.329 is just all types of messed up, right? And, you 00:20:58.329 --> 00:21:01.190 know, we were kind of shunned in a way as like 00:21:01.190 --> 00:21:04.910 the Jew kids, I guess. But that's kind of the 00:21:04.910 --> 00:21:07.390 way that I came up and how it affected me as 00:21:07.390 --> 00:21:10.289 a father. There's just so many ways. I would 00:21:10.289 --> 00:21:18.049 say that in many ways, though, I so desperately... 00:21:18.589 --> 00:21:23.509 wanted to run to my children and to my family 00:21:23.509 --> 00:21:28.329 i ran from the specter of my father in my life 00:21:28.329 --> 00:21:32.849 for probably the first i would say 10 years of 00:21:32.849 --> 00:21:35.890 our marriage which was incredibly chaotic and 00:21:35.890 --> 00:21:38.690 and deeply intertwined with my military story 00:21:38.690 --> 00:21:43.269 and so you know the desire was there i i wanted 00:21:43.269 --> 00:21:47.849 to be present. I wanted to be a loving father. 00:21:47.990 --> 00:21:51.190 I didn't have the tools. I didn't have the awareness. 00:21:51.650 --> 00:21:58.009 And I honestly was just so lost that I ended 00:21:58.009 --> 00:22:01.369 up though wanting to run to them. I ran from 00:22:01.369 --> 00:22:04.710 that specter and I made a lot of really, really 00:22:04.710 --> 00:22:08.970 hurtful mistakes. What changed? When did you 00:22:08.970 --> 00:22:14.490 turn that corner and how? In a word, I would 00:22:14.490 --> 00:22:17.509 say Jesus changed my heart and my life. I mean, 00:22:17.549 --> 00:22:21.769 that's the simple story. The longer story is 00:22:21.769 --> 00:22:30.490 that I just, when I got out of the army in 2009, 00:22:30.809 --> 00:22:34.109 I got out because I wanted to be a husband and 00:22:34.109 --> 00:22:37.690 a dad. I really did. I had been in the army then 00:22:37.690 --> 00:22:40.849 for 11 years. I had done four rotations to Afghanistan. 00:22:44.250 --> 00:22:49.130 And I so badly wanted to be Kelly's husband and 00:22:49.130 --> 00:22:52.430 Jaden and Ellie's dad. A key moment that really 00:22:52.430 --> 00:22:55.869 transformed my life was actually seeing our daughter 00:22:55.869 --> 00:22:58.569 born. So she's our second child, our daughter 00:22:58.569 --> 00:23:02.170 Ellie. I got to be there for that. And why that's 00:23:02.170 --> 00:23:04.690 important is because when our son Jaden was born, 00:23:04.849 --> 00:23:09.630 I was deployed. So I missed the birth of my son. 00:23:09.769 --> 00:23:14.240 And it was... It wrecked me on the inside, right? 00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:16.420 As a guy who grew up without a dad around, last 00:23:16.420 --> 00:23:18.220 thing I wanted to be was absent as a father. 00:23:18.299 --> 00:23:21.359 First thing I was as a father. And the truth 00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:23.180 is, is that I chased it because I chased the 00:23:23.180 --> 00:23:25.720 combat. Like I was going to be damned if someone 00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:29.019 else was going to lead my rangers in combat. 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:32.859 And so I lied about it to Kelly. I told her I 00:23:32.859 --> 00:23:35.000 had no choice. It's just kind of the way the 00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:37.720 cookie crumbles. I'm a service member at war. 00:23:37.940 --> 00:23:39.960 It is what it is. I mean, by the way, this is 00:23:39.960 --> 00:23:45.359 like. 2002. So the towers had just fallen and, 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:51.180 um, and, uh, that really affected. And so that 00:23:51.180 --> 00:23:53.599 really affected the way that I fathered. And, 00:23:53.759 --> 00:23:57.279 you know, I, I got out of the military in 09 00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:01.200 to, to be that husband and dad. And I, I immediately 00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:03.640 took a job that put me on a road, on the road 00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:05.859 in the hotel three nights a week, really smart 00:24:05.859 --> 00:24:10.349 because I just kept running. Because I didn't 00:24:10.349 --> 00:24:12.069 know what to do. And because I wasn't very well. 00:24:12.190 --> 00:24:15.609 I was going with undiagnosed PTSD and traumatic 00:24:15.609 --> 00:24:19.789 brain injuries and sleep apnea for years. Because 00:24:19.789 --> 00:24:22.029 the way it works in the military is that you 00:24:22.029 --> 00:24:23.789 get out of the military, you're supposed to walk 00:24:23.789 --> 00:24:27.069 over to the VA and say, help. I need help. Something's 00:24:27.069 --> 00:24:29.329 wrong with me. Well, that's completely irrational 00:24:29.329 --> 00:24:32.569 when I just spent a decade being expected to 00:24:32.569 --> 00:24:36.619 be an indomitable. You know, U .S. Army Ranger, 00:24:36.900 --> 00:24:39.240 premier direct action raid force in the U .S. 00:24:39.259 --> 00:24:42.720 military. I'm supposed to be indomitable, 10 00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:45.519 feet tall, Sergeant First Class man on the objective. 00:24:45.660 --> 00:24:47.960 And then I'm supposed to just take off my uniform, 00:24:48.319 --> 00:24:51.420 walk across the street and say, oh, I can I be 00:24:51.420 --> 00:24:54.299 vulnerable with you? I need help. That's irrational. 00:24:55.420 --> 00:24:58.119 That is an irrational thought to think that you're 00:24:58.119 --> 00:25:00.039 going to go from that culture to the next culture 00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:02.259 and think that you'll just get help. So I did 00:25:02.259 --> 00:25:04.440 what all of us do. I said, I don't want anything 00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:05.920 from you and I'm fine. And they said, great. 00:25:06.019 --> 00:25:08.559 Well, if you're fine, then you're fine. And then 00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:11.779 six years later, I walked back in for the first 00:25:11.779 --> 00:25:13.740 time and told the truth. And they were like, 00:25:13.779 --> 00:25:15.740 yeah, you're not fine. You have PTSD and traumatic 00:25:15.740 --> 00:25:18.339 brain injuries. And let's start working on this 00:25:18.339 --> 00:25:22.859 kind of stuff. But the turning point for me came 00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:26.319 before I walked into that therapist's office. 00:25:27.579 --> 00:25:32.049 We had been struggling. You know, two years I 00:25:32.049 --> 00:25:34.170 had been out of the military. After a year and 00:25:34.170 --> 00:25:35.789 a half of being out of the military, I was just 00:25:35.789 --> 00:25:38.049 like, forget it. This isn't for me. I'm going 00:25:38.049 --> 00:25:40.210 to go back to the fight. I started getting recruited 00:25:40.210 --> 00:25:45.349 by a three letter agencies, kind of like a direct 00:25:45.349 --> 00:25:48.509 action team. I was kind of in the end stages 00:25:48.509 --> 00:25:50.630 of that. The door got shut in my face with no 00:25:50.630 --> 00:25:55.170 real warning or reason. It was quite odd. And 00:25:55.170 --> 00:25:57.910 the next week, my company said, hey, how'd you 00:25:57.910 --> 00:26:01.099 like to move from? the Alabama territory to Colorado. 00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:04.200 And at that point in time, Kelly and I were just 00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:05.900 holding on by a thread. And I said to her, like, 00:26:05.940 --> 00:26:07.920 do you want to move to Colorado? And she's like, 00:26:08.019 --> 00:26:12.619 yeah, let's do it. We left and got out here and 00:26:12.619 --> 00:26:15.380 we had been out here for a couple months and 00:26:15.380 --> 00:26:18.160 I had been kind of really seeking, just trying 00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:20.299 to understand like, why, why did it all have 00:26:20.299 --> 00:26:23.380 to be so hard? Why is it that when I was. you 00:26:23.380 --> 00:26:26.420 know, in a helicopter going down over the Chagall 00:26:26.420 --> 00:26:28.279 Valley that all of a sudden I cried out to God 00:26:28.279 --> 00:26:31.220 for help and miraculously a double -propped helicopter 00:26:31.220 --> 00:26:34.200 comes out of a dead spin in the dead of night. 00:26:34.700 --> 00:26:40.359 Can't explain that. And yet here I am. And it 00:26:40.359 --> 00:26:44.440 was really cool because we were open to it. We 00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:46.299 had been asking a lot of questions. We were trying 00:26:46.299 --> 00:26:49.740 to figure out how to put together a marriage 00:26:49.740 --> 00:26:52.869 that had been ripped apart by... death, war, 00:26:53.069 --> 00:26:56.769 separation, all the things. And we got invited 00:26:56.769 --> 00:26:59.490 to this church in Colorado, Mission Hills. And, 00:26:59.529 --> 00:27:02.230 you know, we went and I was like, huh, like, 00:27:02.289 --> 00:27:04.569 this is interesting. This Pastor Mike guy, he's 00:27:04.569 --> 00:27:07.130 talking to us like we're smart. He's not talking 00:27:07.130 --> 00:27:08.769 to us like we're stupid. And he's not talking 00:27:08.769 --> 00:27:11.970 down to us. That's interesting. And so I was 00:27:11.970 --> 00:27:13.450 like, oh, we'll come back in next week. And, 00:27:13.470 --> 00:27:15.589 you know, we come back and what's up with this? 00:27:15.609 --> 00:27:17.470 This guy, Rick, every time he sees me in the 00:27:17.470 --> 00:27:19.150 lobby, he's like, hey, we're glad you're here. 00:27:19.569 --> 00:27:22.740 I'm like, really? Are you sure? Because I'm not 00:27:22.740 --> 00:27:24.640 sure if I'm supposed to be here. He's like, no, 00:27:24.759 --> 00:27:27.500 it's good to meet you. Glad you're here. And 00:27:27.500 --> 00:27:29.579 we just kept coming back. And Kelly and I would 00:27:29.579 --> 00:27:32.680 go on to give our lives to Jesus at that church. 00:27:32.940 --> 00:27:35.779 And, you know, I think the thing is, is that 00:27:35.779 --> 00:27:39.480 everybody, it's not like when you come to a relationship 00:27:39.480 --> 00:27:41.759 with Christ, there's like this magical wand, 00:27:41.900 --> 00:27:45.660 like God's not a slot machine, right? It doesn't 00:27:45.660 --> 00:27:47.299 work that way. It's not like everything just 00:27:47.299 --> 00:27:51.299 magically got better. But our lives in that instant 00:27:51.299 --> 00:27:54.859 were transformed and we started to, you know, 00:27:54.859 --> 00:27:58.680 really walk the course. And here we are, you 00:27:58.680 --> 00:28:01.759 know, many years later, which is a whole other 00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:04.480 story to get into because Kelly and I actually 00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:10.079 remarried in 2018. Because the truth is, is we 00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:12.700 lost our first marriage at the behest of all 00:28:12.700 --> 00:28:14.839 of the chaos that happened in the first 10 years. 00:28:16.809 --> 00:28:19.109 One more area and then we'll start that journey. 00:28:19.309 --> 00:28:22.430 But this is what I love about the organic nature 00:28:22.430 --> 00:28:25.690 of this podcast. This is something that I've 00:28:25.690 --> 00:28:29.390 really struggled to articulate to a completely 00:28:29.390 --> 00:28:35.089 overworked, underslept fire service. Is the ultimate 00:28:35.089 --> 00:28:39.490 currency is not that 50 cent pay raise, but actually 00:28:39.490 --> 00:28:41.730 time with your family. And at the moment, as 00:28:41.730 --> 00:28:44.390 we spoke before, and you've read one more light 00:28:44.390 --> 00:28:47.329 as well. we are in a recruitment crisis so you've 00:28:47.329 --> 00:28:49.769 got so many people that work 56 hours and they 00:28:49.769 --> 00:28:51.869 get a mandatory overtime so you're about to go 00:28:51.869 --> 00:28:53.769 home you get a phone call like you're not about 00:28:53.769 --> 00:28:56.269 to go home another 24 hours and now you're calling 00:28:56.269 --> 00:28:58.490 your son or your daughter hey that thing that 00:28:58.490 --> 00:29:01.309 i promised to go to donuts with dads i can't 00:29:01.309 --> 00:29:04.369 come again and the guilt and shame that's you 00:29:04.369 --> 00:29:06.630 know interwoven with that and the fact that your 00:29:06.630 --> 00:29:08.470 partner you know may have a career and needs 00:29:08.470 --> 00:29:12.880 to go to work and all these things With this 00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:15.160 walking the walk element that you did, which 00:29:15.160 --> 00:29:17.259 I did the same thing, I transitioned out the 00:29:17.259 --> 00:29:19.660 fire service and been home now for six and a 00:29:19.660 --> 00:29:22.180 half years as my son went through high school 00:29:22.180 --> 00:29:25.680 and was about to graduate. What advice would 00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:28.559 you give one of your soldiers or a firefighter 00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:33.460 listening as far as analyzing the situation that 00:29:33.460 --> 00:29:37.920 you're in and maybe reprioritizing? The kind 00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:41.259 of, and I mean this empathetically, the ego side 00:29:41.259 --> 00:29:43.559 of wanting to be that chess beating warrior or 00:29:43.559 --> 00:29:47.000 firefighter versus the impact of simply being 00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:51.160 present with your own family. Yeah. You know, 00:29:51.160 --> 00:29:54.259 it's something that my good friend and business 00:29:54.259 --> 00:29:56.599 partner who you've met, Blaine Smith, he's the 00:29:56.599 --> 00:29:59.019 co -author of Perseverance is Greater Than Endurance 00:29:59.019 --> 00:30:02.559 along with me. Blaine and I call this the trap 00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:06.700 of identity asymmetry. And, you know, you mentioned 00:30:06.700 --> 00:30:09.700 the word ego and identity asymmetry simply stated 00:30:09.700 --> 00:30:14.099 is over identifying with your career or your 00:30:14.099 --> 00:30:16.740 accomplishments or your career and your accomplishments. 00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:19.960 And it's easy to do. Like, I totally get it. 00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:21.859 You know, not only do I empathize, but I can 00:30:21.859 --> 00:30:24.819 sympathize because I have been there. You know, 00:30:24.839 --> 00:30:30.220 I was a ranger's ranger. Right. I mean, God's 00:30:30.220 --> 00:30:32.839 sakes, I have I have Ranger tattooed on my back 00:30:32.839 --> 00:30:35.940 and it's not small. Right. I mean, everything 00:30:35.940 --> 00:30:39.359 in my life revolved around Ranger. And it's because, 00:30:39.460 --> 00:30:42.619 you know, in many ways, it was kind of the first 00:30:42.619 --> 00:30:47.019 family that I felt like I fit into. It was the 00:30:47.019 --> 00:30:49.960 first environment that I was like, oh, this is 00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:53.400 where I belong. You know, these people were our 00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:57.720 brothers. Right. I mean. Six roommates, by the 00:30:57.720 --> 00:31:00.500 way, in a four -man room in the late 90s, six 00:31:00.500 --> 00:31:02.740 roommates, every one of us came from a broken 00:31:02.740 --> 00:31:07.220 home, James, all of us. And the bond that we 00:31:07.220 --> 00:31:11.519 created and the excellence that you pursue, go 00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:14.680 to ranger school, you get promoted, you become 00:31:14.680 --> 00:31:16.640 a jump master, you become a sergeant, you become 00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:19.279 a staff sergeant, a squad leader, all these things, 00:31:19.299 --> 00:31:23.680 and you're kind of pursuing and pursuing. Not 00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:25.519 because it's a bad thing, but because you're 00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:28.559 trying to genuinely invest in your profession. 00:31:29.619 --> 00:31:33.799 And the thing about it is, is that inevitably, 00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:39.240 it's common for that to just occupy such a large 00:31:39.240 --> 00:31:42.640 space in your heart and in your mind that it 00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:44.759 kind of crowds everything else out. And so the 00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:49.099 advice that I would give is just to, one, recognize 00:31:49.099 --> 00:31:53.960 that what you do is important. But you're not 00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:56.940 what you do. Who you are is greater than what 00:31:56.940 --> 00:31:59.880 you do. And the truth is that I didn't really 00:31:59.880 --> 00:32:03.380 get in my first, call it 10 years of fatherhood, 00:32:03.420 --> 00:32:07.079 is my kids didn't care that I was, you know, 00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:09.599 Ranger, Ranger, whatever, right? My kids didn't 00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:12.019 care that I, you know, did the best Ranger competition 00:32:12.019 --> 00:32:14.920 in 2006 and podiumed at third with my partner, 00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:16.599 Jeremiah. They didn't care about any of that. 00:32:17.019 --> 00:32:20.039 All they cared about was me. They just wanted 00:32:20.039 --> 00:32:23.269 me to be around and I didn't get it. And I think 00:32:23.269 --> 00:32:29.549 it's really easy to to gain an asymmetrical sense 00:32:29.549 --> 00:32:33.049 of identity from what we do, especially when 00:32:33.049 --> 00:32:35.250 what we do is not just a job. It's a lifestyle. 00:32:35.470 --> 00:32:37.910 You know, you look at the fire services, responders, 00:32:38.529 --> 00:32:42.609 law enforcement, military. You know, this is 00:32:42.609 --> 00:32:46.230 not just a job. This is a way of life. This is 00:32:46.230 --> 00:32:48.750 a there is a whole culture around that. I get 00:32:48.750 --> 00:32:52.190 it. I don't say this lightly when I say. Beware 00:32:52.190 --> 00:32:56.289 of identity asymmetry. The other thing that I 00:32:56.289 --> 00:33:00.910 would say is that it's, you know, people talk 00:33:00.910 --> 00:33:05.029 all the time about balance. For the most part, 00:33:05.069 --> 00:33:07.829 I think that that just that word in itself inspires 00:33:07.829 --> 00:33:10.470 stress or anxiety. It makes me feel like I'm 00:33:10.470 --> 00:33:12.930 on a tightrope or that I'm spinning plates and 00:33:12.930 --> 00:33:14.890 everything like that. I don't know. You know, 00:33:14.910 --> 00:33:16.609 when I think of balance, I think about like. 00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:19.440 a mental abacus where, well, if I spend this 00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:21.259 much time at work, then I got to spend this much 00:33:21.259 --> 00:33:22.859 time over here or I'm going to be a failure. 00:33:23.059 --> 00:33:24.880 And then I got to spend this much time with this 00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:26.400 kid, but then I got to spend this much time. 00:33:26.420 --> 00:33:29.579 It's like, I don't know. I would suggest that 00:33:29.579 --> 00:33:32.079 integration might be a little bit more of a rich 00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:35.339 way to go about your life and finding ways where 00:33:35.339 --> 00:33:39.619 you can actually integrate your life into these 00:33:39.619 --> 00:33:41.660 different elements. And, you know, you think 00:33:41.660 --> 00:33:45.509 about the job, like, look. 56 hours surge plus 00:33:45.509 --> 00:33:50.029 24. Now we're in 80 hours. Probably have gotten 00:33:50.029 --> 00:33:52.650 maybe, I don't know, five hours of sleep in that 00:33:52.650 --> 00:33:56.769 time. Maybe, I don't know. But there's going 00:33:56.769 --> 00:33:59.190 to have to be some margin created somewhere or 00:33:59.190 --> 00:34:03.130 else life will bring that margin down upon your 00:34:03.130 --> 00:34:06.009 head in a way that you do not want to experience. 00:34:06.369 --> 00:34:08.969 And so for any of those that are out there, I 00:34:08.969 --> 00:34:10.750 mean, I would just say, look, I get it. There 00:34:10.750 --> 00:34:13.409 are times where you have to surge. That's fine. 00:34:15.670 --> 00:34:20.449 But think about this. When you're on deployment, 00:34:20.769 --> 00:34:25.090 right, you're still a dad. You're still a mom. 00:34:25.530 --> 00:34:28.969 You're still a spouse. You're still a child of 00:34:28.969 --> 00:34:32.710 somebody. You still have bills to pay. You still 00:34:32.710 --> 00:34:35.570 have a house to maintain. All of these things 00:34:35.570 --> 00:34:39.329 are actually true. Your life is far more a factor 00:34:39.329 --> 00:34:42.909 of integration. than it is a factor of balance. 00:34:43.150 --> 00:34:45.650 Like you take our time and put it into a pie 00:34:45.650 --> 00:34:48.469 chart, right? Like, well, if I do 80 % of my 00:34:48.469 --> 00:34:50.949 time here and then I 20 % here and this and that, 00:34:51.090 --> 00:34:53.349 like think about if that pie chart was like a 00:34:53.349 --> 00:34:55.210 pizza, right? And you had all the ingredients. 00:34:55.289 --> 00:34:57.389 If you had all the pepperoni on one slice and 00:34:57.389 --> 00:34:59.250 you had all the cheese on one slice and you had 00:34:59.250 --> 00:35:02.530 all the bell peppers on one slice, that pizza 00:35:02.530 --> 00:35:05.550 would suck. You know, pizzas are far more rich 00:35:05.550 --> 00:35:07.530 when they're far more well integrated and we 00:35:07.530 --> 00:35:09.730 kind of spread all that stuff around. And so 00:35:09.730 --> 00:35:13.469 I would say looking for ways to live that integrated 00:35:13.469 --> 00:35:17.489 life, respecting the fact that, you know, like 00:35:17.489 --> 00:35:21.170 you're only going to get so much time with your 00:35:21.170 --> 00:35:23.590 kids. Both of my kids are out of the house. You 00:35:23.590 --> 00:35:25.130 know, I'm an empty nester. Kelly and I are empty 00:35:25.130 --> 00:35:27.869 nesters. You're only going to get so much time. 00:35:28.190 --> 00:35:33.119 And I can't say that I can look back. and say 00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:36.320 that I'm thankful for the extra shifts that I 00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:40.860 took or the extra drives that I made driving 00:35:40.860 --> 00:35:43.219 the 60 ,000 miles around the state of Alabama 00:35:43.219 --> 00:35:46.360 as my sales territory, that extra night I spent 00:35:46.360 --> 00:35:49.460 in the hotel. I can't say that I can look back 00:35:49.460 --> 00:35:52.039 and say that I'm really glad that I did that 00:35:52.039 --> 00:35:54.820 and instead chose to miss my kids' dance recital. 00:35:55.199 --> 00:36:00.019 I can't say that. But I can say that I am glad 00:36:00.019 --> 00:36:03.630 that I... Took a step back and started to assess 00:36:03.630 --> 00:36:06.750 what was really important to my life and to my 00:36:06.750 --> 00:36:09.329 family's life and start to make those decisions 00:36:09.329 --> 00:36:13.329 because the hard reality of it is this. I left 00:36:13.329 --> 00:36:15.769 the Rangers almost 20 years ago. Guess what? 00:36:15.829 --> 00:36:20.829 They're doing just fine without me. Absolutely. 00:36:21.050 --> 00:36:23.090 And this is the thing is, you know, with the 00:36:23.090 --> 00:36:25.090 fire service, it's not even like a call to action 00:36:25.090 --> 00:36:28.170 to leave. It's a call to action to fight for. 00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:31.380 a work week that allows you to be home, a work 00:36:31.380 --> 00:36:34.099 week that brings young people back in our profession, 00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:36.940 fills the holes. And therefore, as you said, 00:36:36.980 --> 00:36:38.719 I love that word, the surge. You have the surge 00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:41.900 event, the wildfires, the tornadoes, the hurricanes, 00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:44.199 you know, the avalanche. I was just watching 00:36:44.199 --> 00:36:45.980 a documentary on that moment. Whatever it is, 00:36:46.059 --> 00:36:48.340 that's an all -hands event. Yes, you kiss your 00:36:48.340 --> 00:36:49.940 loved ones goodbye. You say, dad's got to go 00:36:49.940 --> 00:36:52.860 help some people. But that's a once in a while 00:36:52.860 --> 00:36:55.739 tool to be used, not a 10 year staffing model. 00:36:55.880 --> 00:36:58.940 So getting my population to really take a step 00:36:58.940 --> 00:37:01.179 back and prioritize what is the most important 00:37:01.179 --> 00:37:04.780 thing. Just like you said, your children won't 00:37:04.780 --> 00:37:07.519 remember the extra shift in a positive way, but 00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:09.519 they will remember when you weren't there, when 00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:12.179 you promised you would be. Yeah, that's right. 00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:14.860 And, you know, I I've never served in the fire 00:37:14.860 --> 00:37:19.570 services. I have. just the utmost respect for 00:37:19.570 --> 00:37:22.590 what y 'all are doing out there. I mean, it is 00:37:22.590 --> 00:37:26.550 truly incredible and humbling. So thank you for 00:37:26.550 --> 00:37:29.710 any responders that are out there. Thank you 00:37:29.710 --> 00:37:32.250 for what you do. I mean, it is incredible. I 00:37:32.250 --> 00:37:36.909 can't really speak into the work week components 00:37:36.909 --> 00:37:39.909 of it, although I'm very, I think you've done 00:37:39.909 --> 00:37:44.619 a really great job at painting. the problem in 00:37:44.619 --> 00:37:46.820 one more light and the solution, which I really 00:37:46.820 --> 00:37:51.920 appreciate. You've framed the issue. You've given 00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:56.139 us a way to address it. But I want to share maybe 00:37:56.139 --> 00:37:59.659 an illustration, a story from my life that I 00:37:59.659 --> 00:38:02.920 think relates to this, because I think what you're 00:38:02.920 --> 00:38:05.420 saying is bang on, James. And I think it's critical 00:38:05.420 --> 00:38:14.190 for this to be solved for. When the towers fell 00:38:14.190 --> 00:38:19.409 on 9 -11, I was engaged to be married to Kelly. 00:38:19.570 --> 00:38:21.510 So we were supposed to be married in December 00:38:21.510 --> 00:38:24.409 of 2001. At this point, I was the squad leader 00:38:24.409 --> 00:38:27.469 of a nine -man ranger assault squad. The Rangers 00:38:27.469 --> 00:38:29.650 are America's premier direct action raid force. 00:38:29.969 --> 00:38:32.550 We don't show up anywhere to hand out water bottles 00:38:32.550 --> 00:38:35.329 or candy or do humanitarian aid. If we show up, 00:38:35.349 --> 00:38:37.909 you're done screwed up and we're going to basically 00:38:37.909 --> 00:38:41.960 deal with you. That's kind of the mission set, 00:38:42.099 --> 00:38:46.300 right? So it's a very aggressive, direct action 00:38:46.300 --> 00:38:50.119 special operations force. And Kelly and I were 00:38:50.119 --> 00:38:53.099 supposed to be married in December. Well, in 00:38:53.099 --> 00:38:56.440 addition to the towers falling on September 11th, 00:38:56.440 --> 00:38:59.900 2001, Kelly's mother was in the hospital after 00:38:59.900 --> 00:39:03.039 having her first round of chemotherapy. And so. 00:39:03.949 --> 00:39:08.650 That night would end up becoming her 53rd and 00:39:08.650 --> 00:39:12.369 final birthday, 9 -11, because she went home 00:39:12.369 --> 00:39:15.650 on hospice care the next day. And a couple of 00:39:15.650 --> 00:39:18.750 days later, she had a kind of a day of clarity. 00:39:19.329 --> 00:39:22.489 So on September 17th, 2001, Kelly and I called 00:39:22.489 --> 00:39:25.010 it just as the peace over, got married in the 00:39:25.010 --> 00:39:27.349 living room of the house Kelly grew up in. Her 00:39:27.349 --> 00:39:29.730 mother died two days later, and I deployed to 00:39:29.730 --> 00:39:32.300 the Middle East eight days after that. Now, it 00:39:32.300 --> 00:39:35.460 was a pre -planned deployment to Jordan that 00:39:35.460 --> 00:39:39.280 kind of started to evolve as the battlefield 00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:43.719 situation started to evolve. And we kind of thought 00:39:43.719 --> 00:39:45.780 we would be the initial launch point over into 00:39:45.780 --> 00:39:48.420 Afghanistan. It ended up being 3rd Ranger Battalion 00:39:48.420 --> 00:39:50.420 that did the jump into Afghanistan on October 00:39:50.420 --> 00:39:55.019 19th, 2001. But we were over in this sequestered 00:39:55.019 --> 00:39:57.900 package, this Joint Special Operations Task Force 00:39:57.900 --> 00:40:00.949 package. So I couldn't call home. And I get to 00:40:00.949 --> 00:40:04.150 call home finally after three weeks and Kelly 00:40:04.150 --> 00:40:06.449 answers the phone and she says, I'm pregnant. 00:40:07.250 --> 00:40:12.030 To which I said, of course you are. And then 00:40:12.030 --> 00:40:14.849 nine months later, our son Jaden is born and 00:40:14.849 --> 00:40:17.590 I'm listening from a satellite phone in Afghanistan 00:40:17.590 --> 00:40:21.190 while they're in Seattle. And the thing is this. 00:40:25.510 --> 00:40:31.380 We had three guys in our unit. whose wives were 00:40:31.380 --> 00:40:33.460 pregnant and, you know, about to pop, right? 00:40:34.900 --> 00:40:37.340 One of them was a staff officer who really wasn't 00:40:37.340 --> 00:40:40.099 kind of mission critical in the moment. They 00:40:40.099 --> 00:40:42.460 got to send him home. Another one was a young 00:40:42.460 --> 00:40:47.099 ranger who was like the 13th man in an 11 -man 00:40:47.099 --> 00:40:52.559 weapon squad. We got to send him home. I couldn't 00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:56.340 go home. I was not allowed to go home because 00:40:56.340 --> 00:40:59.239 I was mission critical, right? And it's funny, 00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:01.780 too, because when you're a young soldier, a young 00:41:01.780 --> 00:41:03.840 special operator, you're like, man, someday I 00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:06.360 hope I'm mission critical. Until you're mission 00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:08.820 critical at the very worst point in time. And 00:41:08.820 --> 00:41:10.380 it's like, sorry, you know, we got to have you 00:41:10.380 --> 00:41:14.119 surge here. And the upshot of it all is that 00:41:14.119 --> 00:41:17.699 I missed my son's birth. It was really devastating 00:41:17.699 --> 00:41:20.699 on my heart. I was around for maybe three of 00:41:20.699 --> 00:41:24.079 the first 36 months of our marriage. That was 00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:30.480 devastating as well. I lay this down to tell 00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:34.059 you that the interesting part about all of this 00:41:34.059 --> 00:41:38.099 is those leaders, they would go on. The young 00:41:38.099 --> 00:41:42.400 man who was a young Ranger back in 2002, he literally 00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:46.639 is the senior ranking enlisted Ranger in the 00:41:46.639 --> 00:41:49.639 United States Army right now. Senior ranking, 00:41:49.800 --> 00:41:54.139 command sergeant major. And he was there. He 00:41:54.139 --> 00:41:56.900 saw that. Other leaders were there. They saw 00:41:56.900 --> 00:42:00.380 that. A couple years later, I was told, you know, 00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:03.500 you were the last one, right? You were the last 00:42:03.500 --> 00:42:08.280 one that the battalion did not allow to go home 00:42:08.280 --> 00:42:11.360 to experience the birth of their child, right? 00:42:11.619 --> 00:42:14.159 And I just got a chance to go back to the 2nd 00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:17.219 Ranger Battalion for our 50th anniversary. And 00:42:17.219 --> 00:42:22.019 I was blown away because I was talking to senior 00:42:22.019 --> 00:42:27.159 leaders of this. exceptional special operations 00:42:27.159 --> 00:42:30.260 force that is worldwide deployable in 18 hours 00:42:30.260 --> 00:42:33.480 notice, right? And these leaders are telling 00:42:33.480 --> 00:42:37.090 me I have an active roster of every pregnant 00:42:37.090 --> 00:42:40.409 spouse in the battalion. We keep check -ins on 00:42:40.409 --> 00:42:43.949 every ranger. We make sure that they know that 00:42:43.949 --> 00:42:46.809 they will be peeled off on training events that 00:42:46.809 --> 00:42:49.769 they do not need to be on. They do not miss their 00:42:49.769 --> 00:42:52.590 kids' births. We pull them off and we change 00:42:52.590 --> 00:42:55.710 the game because this is a critical life event 00:42:55.710 --> 00:42:58.929 and we don't want our rangers missing it. That's 00:42:58.929 --> 00:43:03.250 growth. And like I said, I've never served in 00:43:03.250 --> 00:43:06.320 the fire services, but I got to tell you. that 00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:14.199 if the Army Rangers, who are a very, what's the 00:43:14.199 --> 00:43:19.579 best way to describe us, disciplined and hard 00:43:19.579 --> 00:43:25.920 -nosed environment, if we can flex to invest 00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:29.780 in our Rangers, their families, their children, 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:34.539 that has proven to increase mission lethality. 00:43:34.909 --> 00:43:39.429 in the long run. I absolutely love that. I mean, 00:43:39.449 --> 00:43:42.769 again, it's just the reprioritization. It's funny, 00:43:42.869 --> 00:43:45.469 I was actually, I think it was yesterday, just 00:43:45.469 --> 00:43:47.710 on Instagram, it popped up, those World War II 00:43:47.710 --> 00:43:50.989 pictures of sailors and soldiers and airmen leaning 00:43:50.989 --> 00:43:53.630 out of train windows and their buddies are holding 00:43:53.630 --> 00:43:55.210 them by the legs while they kiss their loved 00:43:55.210 --> 00:43:57.889 one one last time. And that's it. I mean, back 00:43:57.889 --> 00:44:00.449 then, that was valued. All the loved ones were 00:44:00.449 --> 00:44:02.130 there when they deployed. All the loved ones 00:44:02.130 --> 00:44:04.590 were there in parades when they came back. And 00:44:04.590 --> 00:44:07.449 that was the 40s, almost 100 years ago. And I 00:44:07.449 --> 00:44:09.829 think that, you know, the fire service, not all 00:44:09.829 --> 00:44:11.789 of them, but a lot of us, you know, we've just 00:44:11.789 --> 00:44:16.630 got stuck in this, arguably this kind of 1980s 00:44:16.630 --> 00:44:21.469 Stallone Robocop mentality that we are. And I've 00:44:21.469 --> 00:44:23.969 heard, you know, several of your peers use this 00:44:23.969 --> 00:44:26.389 term disposable heroes. You go out there, you 00:44:26.389 --> 00:44:29.050 do your man stuff and then you suck it up and, 00:44:29.070 --> 00:44:31.519 you know. Go drink yourself into oblivion. You're 00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:33.880 not a problem anymore. And you look at the progressive 00:44:33.880 --> 00:44:35.960 corporations and even things that are happening 00:44:35.960 --> 00:44:38.539 in the military like you just detailed and you're 00:44:38.539 --> 00:44:43.599 light years ahead of us. Yeah. Yeah, that makes 00:44:43.599 --> 00:44:46.280 me really sad. And, you know, I have a number 00:44:46.280 --> 00:44:51.940 of firefighters in my life who firefighters and 00:44:51.940 --> 00:44:57.019 law enforcement who have struggled with the impact 00:44:57.019 --> 00:45:03.039 of that. And it's heartbreaking. You know, impact 00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:05.380 that includes, you know, you mentioned alcoholism, 00:45:05.420 --> 00:45:09.780 addictions, you know, could be drugs, could be 00:45:09.780 --> 00:45:15.320 sex, could be alcohol, suicide. I mean, it's 00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:18.099 all right there. And it's like we're looking 00:45:18.099 --> 00:45:21.059 right at it. And look, I don't think we have 00:45:21.059 --> 00:45:24.519 all the answers in the military or anything like 00:45:24.519 --> 00:45:29.250 that. But I just. In my estimation, we are kindred 00:45:29.250 --> 00:45:32.710 communities. You know, we are we are we are those 00:45:32.710 --> 00:45:35.349 who raise our hands and run into the burning 00:45:35.349 --> 00:45:39.309 building. We are those who have a servant's heart. 00:45:39.429 --> 00:45:42.309 And I think the kindred aspect of it is that 00:45:42.309 --> 00:45:47.010 there's a lot of consequence that comes with 00:45:47.010 --> 00:45:51.210 that. And we need to be the best at taking care 00:45:51.210 --> 00:45:55.039 of ours, knowing. And knowing what we're going 00:45:55.039 --> 00:45:57.300 through, because, you know, I love how you said 00:45:57.300 --> 00:45:59.239 like the Stallone, like I feel like I was raised 00:45:59.239 --> 00:46:02.920 by Rambo, you know, raised by Rambo and Commando. 00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:06.000 Right. And yeah, I mean, I embrace that, too. 00:46:06.139 --> 00:46:09.539 But you're going to reach the extent of what 00:46:09.539 --> 00:46:12.119 your of what your mind, your body and your soul 00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:15.500 can endure. And, you know, that's that's a big 00:46:15.500 --> 00:46:17.480 part of the way that we see the world, because. 00:46:18.740 --> 00:46:21.500 Blaine and I have had to persevere. We've had 00:46:21.500 --> 00:46:23.900 to change. We've had to do things differently 00:46:23.900 --> 00:46:28.840 and found that in doing that have become far 00:46:28.840 --> 00:46:33.320 more effective for the long haul. Absolutely. 00:46:33.539 --> 00:46:35.619 Well, let's kind of finally now walk through 00:46:35.619 --> 00:46:38.800 the front door of the military for you. Talk 00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:41.400 to me about what took you into the army and then 00:46:41.400 --> 00:46:45.039 the Rangers specifically. And then at that front 00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:48.480 door. What was your experience of leadership, 00:46:48.800 --> 00:46:50.960 whether phenomenal or terrible? What was the 00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:53.139 kind of landscape you were exposed to early in 00:46:53.139 --> 00:46:58.159 your career? Yeah, well, it's not hard to see 00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:00.539 why I wanted to be a soldier from the time I 00:47:00.539 --> 00:47:04.420 had memories. And I mean, there was there was 00:47:04.420 --> 00:47:06.800 no other alternative, you know, like, first of 00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:08.860 all, I didn't really have the money to take the 00:47:08.860 --> 00:47:11.400 SAT when I was in high school. And I didn't really 00:47:11.400 --> 00:47:13.099 care anyways, because I knew I was just going 00:47:13.099 --> 00:47:15.739 to enlist in the army. So I went straight in, 00:47:15.820 --> 00:47:20.820 unassigned airborne infantry contract. It was 00:47:20.820 --> 00:47:22.860 hysterical too at the front door. As you said, 00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:26.139 they make you take a test. It's called like the 00:47:26.139 --> 00:47:29.940 ASVAB and the, I think it's Armed Services Vocational 00:47:29.940 --> 00:47:32.460 Aptitude Battery. And so it kind of tells you 00:47:32.460 --> 00:47:35.880 what your aptitude is for. And there's a portion 00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:38.539 of it called the general technical score. And 00:47:38.539 --> 00:47:40.639 the GT score is essentially comparable to your 00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:43.840 IQ. And they said to me, this is great. You have 00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:46.039 a high enough GT score. You can do whatever you 00:47:46.039 --> 00:47:47.579 want. I was like, sweet. I'll take infantry. 00:47:47.780 --> 00:47:52.159 And they're like, no, no, no. Let's start over. 00:47:52.260 --> 00:47:54.159 This is great. You can do whatever you want. 00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:57.360 I said, I want to be in the infantry. I want 00:47:57.360 --> 00:47:59.019 to close with and destroy the enemies of our 00:47:59.019 --> 00:48:01.840 country. I want to be a door kicker. I want to 00:48:01.840 --> 00:48:06.530 get at it. When I was in basic training back 00:48:06.530 --> 00:48:09.389 in that time, it was called Fort Benning, Georgia. 00:48:09.550 --> 00:48:12.150 It's now called Fort Moore. But when you're in 00:48:12.150 --> 00:48:16.349 that moment, you have your basic training, which 00:48:16.349 --> 00:48:18.190 I think was eight weeks in my time, and then 00:48:18.190 --> 00:48:20.630 your advanced individual training to be essentially 00:48:20.630 --> 00:48:24.250 like a grunt, which was like three weeks. So 00:48:24.250 --> 00:48:27.789 11 weeks total, one station unit training. And 00:48:27.789 --> 00:48:30.210 it's funny you ask about the leadership experience 00:48:30.210 --> 00:48:33.650 because... You know, I get there and the first 00:48:33.650 --> 00:48:35.989 thing that happens is that they made me the platoon 00:48:35.989 --> 00:48:39.309 guide, which is like the leader of the platoon, 00:48:39.489 --> 00:48:43.250 the student leader of the platoon of 40 trainees. 00:48:44.070 --> 00:48:49.110 And these these jokers made me the platoon guide 00:48:49.110 --> 00:48:51.869 the entire time. So I was the guy for the whole 00:48:51.869 --> 00:48:55.210 time. I'm like, what the hell? Like, so I'm trying 00:48:55.210 --> 00:48:58.329 to like go through learning my stuff while also 00:48:58.329 --> 00:49:01.219 trying to. be a peer leader. And it was, it was 00:49:01.219 --> 00:49:04.599 an interesting learning experience. The drill 00:49:04.599 --> 00:49:08.179 sergeants that I had were just like, no joke, 00:49:08.340 --> 00:49:11.980 relentless. I mean, they put the wood to us. 00:49:12.039 --> 00:49:16.179 It was, it was not easy. Wasn't easy for me, 00:49:16.199 --> 00:49:21.639 at least I will say. And we had a guy, a drill 00:49:21.639 --> 00:49:23.880 sergeant joined kind of late cycle. His name 00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:27.739 was Sergeant Coronado. I'll never forget him. 00:49:28.300 --> 00:49:30.199 And he had been in the third ranger battalion. 00:49:30.280 --> 00:49:31.659 And he says to me, you know what, young, you 00:49:31.659 --> 00:49:33.360 know what you should do? You should go be a ranger. 00:49:33.420 --> 00:49:36.219 That's where you need to be. And I was like, 00:49:36.360 --> 00:49:38.239 well, I mean, yeah, I'd love to do that. But, 00:49:38.239 --> 00:49:41.199 you know, like, don't you have to be like a sergeant 00:49:41.199 --> 00:49:42.800 or something? He's like, no, what are you talking 00:49:42.800 --> 00:49:44.679 about? You can volunteer to be a ranger in airborne 00:49:44.679 --> 00:49:48.260 school. I'm like, really? So I volunteered to 00:49:48.260 --> 00:49:50.199 be a ranger in airborne school. I ended up getting 00:49:50.199 --> 00:49:52.320 to go into the ranger indoctrination program, 00:49:52.739 --> 00:49:58.489 which was our assessment and selection. You know, 00:49:58.489 --> 00:50:00.510 we're basically just going to ring you out and 00:50:00.510 --> 00:50:02.429 smash you against the wall for three weeks. And 00:50:02.429 --> 00:50:05.309 if you can, you know, if you're if you're anyone 00:50:05.309 --> 00:50:08.809 left standing can be a ranger. And I mean, I 00:50:08.809 --> 00:50:11.650 had like you don't talk about leadership like 00:50:11.650 --> 00:50:17.829 these. NCOs in the ranger regiment was it was 00:50:17.829 --> 00:50:20.750 like nothing I had ever seen before. I mean, 00:50:20.769 --> 00:50:27.289 they were they were strong, fast, smart, quick. 00:50:27.989 --> 00:50:31.730 Uh, you know, they, they were so impressive, 00:50:31.989 --> 00:50:36.269 um, that, I mean, guys like Jay Hall and, uh, 00:50:36.349 --> 00:50:39.389 Rich Thompson. I mean, I was just like Jules 00:50:39.389 --> 00:50:41.429 Blum. I mean, it was incredible. I was like, 00:50:42.409 --> 00:50:44.969 I'm just holding on for dear life, just trying 00:50:44.969 --> 00:50:48.610 to earn my way into this community because I 00:50:48.610 --> 00:50:50.750 want to be the best. And these guys are clearly 00:50:50.750 --> 00:50:54.699 the best. So I want to be one of them. Did I 00:50:54.699 --> 00:50:57.079 read in your book that you ran a two mile in 00:50:57.079 --> 00:51:01.139 just over 10 minutes? 10 .05. That's my fastest 00:51:01.139 --> 00:51:04.079 two mile time. Were you a track athlete before? 00:51:04.219 --> 00:51:06.519 Because my son was doing track and he had a sub 00:51:06.519 --> 00:51:09.960 five one mile. So I understand how much faster 00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:12.440 he is than my old ass now. I've been running 00:51:12.440 --> 00:51:14.579 with him before and what that would take to do 00:51:14.579 --> 00:51:18.039 a sub or basically a 10 minute two mile. No, 00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:23.489 I grew up as a footballer and I ran angry. And 00:51:23.489 --> 00:51:26.309 by footballer, I mean a soccer player. Yeah, 00:51:26.369 --> 00:51:28.969 real football. A real footballer. You know, game 00:51:28.969 --> 00:51:33.389 recognized game, James. I'm just... Yeah, I was 00:51:33.389 --> 00:51:38.150 a center mid. So I've been fast my whole life. 00:51:38.170 --> 00:51:43.809 And yeah, I used to be really fast. With that 00:51:43.809 --> 00:51:45.809 lens, let's take another tangent for a second. 00:51:46.289 --> 00:51:49.329 I've had... conversations with a few strength 00:51:49.329 --> 00:51:51.369 and conditioning coaches and nutritionists recently 00:51:51.369 --> 00:51:54.809 and i had a kind of aha moment when i talked 00:51:54.809 --> 00:51:57.190 to the seals the sf guys you know i mean all 00:51:57.190 --> 00:52:01.449 the the tier one elite performers um you know 00:52:01.449 --> 00:52:04.170 when you have that that village around them they've 00:52:04.170 --> 00:52:05.949 got strength conditioning coaches and nutritionists 00:52:05.949 --> 00:52:08.909 and sports psychologists and all the things and 00:52:08.909 --> 00:52:12.309 their goal is to squeeze out performance when 00:52:12.309 --> 00:52:14.650 those same professionals are dealing with first 00:52:14.650 --> 00:52:17.500 responders the conversation is, well, let's try 00:52:17.500 --> 00:52:19.699 and get you not so fat. Let's try and get you 00:52:19.699 --> 00:52:22.179 to not have a heart attack. And I realized how 00:52:22.179 --> 00:52:25.760 far that chasm is between where we are and the 00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:28.739 high level performance of, you know, some of 00:52:28.739 --> 00:52:31.659 our operators. You've been exposed to, you know, 00:52:31.679 --> 00:52:34.780 some firefighters, some law enforcement. With 00:52:34.780 --> 00:52:37.679 the lens that you have at this elite athleticism 00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:40.840 that you needed as a ranger, what is your perspective 00:52:40.840 --> 00:52:44.030 of the first responder community? And how do 00:52:44.030 --> 00:52:47.250 we put that bar up again? Because, I mean, arguably, 00:52:47.250 --> 00:52:49.570 we should also be held to a similar standard, 00:52:49.650 --> 00:52:54.769 in my opinion, in police and fire. Well, I mean, 00:52:54.789 --> 00:52:58.190 I defer. I'd be out of my depth to suggest what 00:52:58.190 --> 00:53:01.630 I think, but I defer to your perspective. And 00:53:01.630 --> 00:53:05.389 I would agree with you in terms of performance. 00:53:05.650 --> 00:53:12.909 I think that. I mean, look, if. If your job requires 00:53:12.909 --> 00:53:18.610 you to be able to carry a load, climb up flights 00:53:18.610 --> 00:53:22.210 of stairs while bringing up equipment, oxygen 00:53:22.210 --> 00:53:28.110 tanks, the whole nine yards, and you are not 00:53:28.110 --> 00:53:33.769 training to meet that level of performance, I 00:53:33.769 --> 00:53:38.510 think that you are accepting a degree of liability 00:53:38.510 --> 00:53:43.590 that is quite dangerous. I would suggest that, 00:53:43.590 --> 00:53:46.789 you know, as a ranger, if I were to have accepted 00:53:46.789 --> 00:53:51.929 that kind of lackadaisical approach to my fitness, 00:53:52.070 --> 00:53:55.969 it would have been a dereliction of duty. Like 00:53:55.969 --> 00:53:59.630 I would have been abdicating my duty. I wouldn't 00:53:59.630 --> 00:54:01.869 have been able to stick around because the job 00:54:01.869 --> 00:54:05.769 demands that you have that level of performance. 00:54:06.150 --> 00:54:12.960 And, you know, I think that. You know, look, 00:54:13.820 --> 00:54:17.500 if you're towing the line there, I would suggest 00:54:17.500 --> 00:54:19.519 that it is in your best interest to make sure 00:54:19.519 --> 00:54:24.239 that you can operate at peak performance. That 00:54:24.239 --> 00:54:26.920 would, I mean, that's the flat out answer. I 00:54:26.920 --> 00:54:28.599 mean, for me, I don't understand it, whether 00:54:28.599 --> 00:54:31.739 you're, if you're a service member, because let's, 00:54:31.739 --> 00:54:35.360 you know, let's not, let's not get too out of 00:54:35.360 --> 00:54:38.199 balance here. There are plenty of service members 00:54:38.199 --> 00:54:41.860 that do not make tape, so to speak. They're over 00:54:41.860 --> 00:54:45.300 on the tape test. Their BMI is overextended. 00:54:45.340 --> 00:54:50.539 That I will speak into. You need to change. I'll 00:54:50.539 --> 00:54:54.480 speak into that right now. The very purpose of 00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:59.659 the U .S. military is to defend the United States 00:54:59.659 --> 00:55:01.599 and to close with and destroy the enemies of 00:55:01.599 --> 00:55:05.619 our country. I'm sorry, but personal fitness. 00:55:06.429 --> 00:55:09.570 It is readiness. And if you are not ready for 00:55:09.570 --> 00:55:12.829 that, then, you know, hey, good opportunity to 00:55:12.829 --> 00:55:15.230 do some reflection and take a small step in the 00:55:15.230 --> 00:55:16.869 right direction that will lead to big changes. 00:55:17.010 --> 00:55:20.909 That would be my hope for you. I can't see how 00:55:20.909 --> 00:55:24.269 it would be beneficial in any uniform that you 00:55:24.269 --> 00:55:28.150 wear it with any shield on your chest. If behind 00:55:28.150 --> 00:55:31.010 that chest, you're carrying excess weight that 00:55:31.010 --> 00:55:34.960 prohibits. your ability to perform. I can't see 00:55:34.960 --> 00:55:38.739 that as, as a very wise way to go. Yeah. I think 00:55:38.739 --> 00:55:40.780 a good parallel that I've had some guests that 00:55:40.780 --> 00:55:42.360 do this, you know, if you think of a Hawaiian 00:55:42.360 --> 00:55:47.079 lifeguard that can't swim, how well would that 00:55:47.079 --> 00:55:48.719 go down? You know what I mean? I was a lifeguard 00:55:48.719 --> 00:55:51.420 myself, not in the ocean and open water and pools. 00:55:51.659 --> 00:55:54.460 And you have to requalify every two years. If 00:55:54.460 --> 00:55:56.340 you can't do the towing and the swimming and 00:55:56.340 --> 00:55:58.960 the underwater retrievals and all the other things, 00:55:59.039 --> 00:56:00.920 you don't get your piece of paper. You're not 00:56:00.920 --> 00:56:03.730 a lifeguard anymore. So just being asked to be 00:56:03.730 --> 00:56:07.250 able to perform the tasks that you were expected 00:56:07.250 --> 00:56:09.789 to do to pass as a firefighter in the academy 00:56:09.789 --> 00:56:13.210 throughout your career is not a big ask. But 00:56:13.210 --> 00:56:16.710 for some reason, my profession, there's been 00:56:16.710 --> 00:56:19.989 a culture of fighting fitness standards. So a 00:56:19.989 --> 00:56:24.469 lot of people literally will look back nostalgically 00:56:24.469 --> 00:56:26.349 like, oh, I remember when I was in the academy, 00:56:26.510 --> 00:56:29.389 I was really fit then. Well, our academy is named 00:56:29.389 --> 00:56:32.559 minimum standards for a reason. That is the most 00:56:32.559 --> 00:56:34.800 shit you should ever be in your entire fucking 00:56:34.800 --> 00:56:37.739 career. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm 50. I get 00:56:37.739 --> 00:56:41.000 aging. I feel aging. My body has been battered. 00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:43.739 But if you are going to be out on the line wearing 00:56:43.739 --> 00:56:46.599 the uniform, you still have to hold that bar, 00:56:46.739 --> 00:56:48.900 that standard. And I would argue, hopefully, 00:56:49.059 --> 00:56:51.079 as you get older, you become more efficient. 00:56:51.719 --> 00:56:53.800 You don't have to be as strong and fast, but 00:56:53.800 --> 00:56:55.320 you're still able to do it because you're better 00:56:55.320 --> 00:56:58.119 at it now. Yeah. I mean, I'm not running 10 Oh 00:56:58.119 --> 00:57:00.500 five, two miles anymore. You know, like I'm, 00:57:00.500 --> 00:57:03.159 I'm, I'm in my mid forties right now. And at 00:57:03.159 --> 00:57:07.320 some point in time, I had to do a little bit 00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:10.719 of a mental shift from a performance to a wellness 00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:14.239 mindset. And, you know, and, and I would say 00:57:14.239 --> 00:57:16.360 what that means is that, you know, okay, so now 00:57:16.360 --> 00:57:18.679 I'm not doing 30 mile road marches with a 65 00:57:18.679 --> 00:57:21.920 pound pack on my back. Like, or I'm, I'm not, 00:57:21.920 --> 00:57:24.840 I'm not running, rocking it till the wheels fall 00:57:24.840 --> 00:57:29.159 off anymore. But I am well. I am still fit, strong, 00:57:29.500 --> 00:57:33.739 fast. I have endurance. I have flexibility. I 00:57:33.739 --> 00:57:37.340 eat well because I had to shift my mindset from 00:57:37.340 --> 00:57:40.119 performance to wellness. But I would say that 00:57:40.119 --> 00:57:42.739 if you're in a sedentary mindset, maybe you switch 00:57:42.739 --> 00:57:46.260 from sedentary to wellness mindset first on your 00:57:46.260 --> 00:57:50.239 march to performance. Let's not act like it's 00:57:50.239 --> 00:57:53.239 not hard to change behavior, especially in a 00:57:53.239 --> 00:57:57.090 culture where... There's like poison in our food, 00:57:57.170 --> 00:58:02.449 for God's sakes. We don't make it easy on ourselves 00:58:02.449 --> 00:58:07.369 right now to eat well, to live a well lifestyle, 00:58:07.610 --> 00:58:10.829 to get the fitness in. But I mean, this doesn't 00:58:10.829 --> 00:58:14.349 just stop with also the responder community. 00:58:14.969 --> 00:58:18.130 This is, I think, larger than that. And we talked 00:58:18.130 --> 00:58:20.429 to a lot of companies, a lot of leaders in a 00:58:20.429 --> 00:58:24.289 lot of locations about what can you do to... 00:58:24.829 --> 00:58:28.650 in place a culture of wellness and sustainability 00:58:28.650 --> 00:58:32.550 in your company, right? I mean, because honestly, 00:58:32.789 --> 00:58:34.769 James, like sitting in front of a computer screen 00:58:34.769 --> 00:58:36.849 for 10 hours a day, that's not good for you either. 00:58:37.210 --> 00:58:40.909 You know, like you mean to tell me we can't take 00:58:40.909 --> 00:58:45.349 an hour midday, get up, walk around, go outside, 00:58:45.610 --> 00:58:48.369 walk around, get a workout in, you know, like 00:58:48.369 --> 00:58:51.809 get some time in. And the leaders that we have 00:58:51.809 --> 00:58:54.880 spoken to. who are really employing this kind 00:58:54.880 --> 00:58:56.659 of practice. And, you know, some of them are 00:58:56.659 --> 00:58:58.719 in the fire services. We've had a chance to do 00:58:58.719 --> 00:59:02.079 the Colorado Fire Leadership Series here last 00:59:02.079 --> 00:59:04.099 year, which was freaking amazing. I can talk 00:59:04.099 --> 00:59:06.059 about that in a moment here if you like. But, 00:59:06.059 --> 00:59:09.840 you know, large multinational corporations in 00:59:09.840 --> 00:59:12.559 finance sector, healthcare, all these different 00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:15.340 things. It's like, come on, you mean to tell 00:59:15.340 --> 00:59:21.260 me that we can't make it a priority to be well? 00:59:21.480 --> 00:59:24.860 And when you do that, You extend the time horizon 00:59:24.860 --> 00:59:29.380 of your personnel's effectiveness. It's no longer 00:59:29.380 --> 00:59:33.159 the burn them down until you burn them out and 00:59:33.159 --> 00:59:34.780 we'll just keep cycling through them. I mean, 00:59:34.800 --> 00:59:39.480 look, take a big step back from all that. Let 00:59:39.480 --> 00:59:41.219 me just ask this question. How's it working out 00:59:41.219 --> 00:59:45.980 for us? Exactly. That's the mic drop moment right 00:59:45.980 --> 00:59:47.840 there. People ask me for data. I'm like, I've 00:59:47.840 --> 00:59:51.840 got 50 years of data. This is how you destroy 00:59:51.840 --> 00:59:55.469 a firefighter. You know, work 56 hours, create 00:59:55.469 --> 00:59:58.250 a recruitment crisis, now force people to work 00:59:58.250 --> 01:00:00.750 overtime, you know, have a toxic leadership. 01:00:00.909 --> 01:00:03.150 I mean, all these things will compound and you 01:00:03.150 --> 01:00:06.050 will have a cancer, suicide, you know, addiction, 01:00:06.369 --> 01:00:09.570 insert all the other things, crisis. So there's 01:00:09.570 --> 01:00:11.769 your kind of, you know, pseudo null hypothesis, 01:00:12.070 --> 01:00:15.510 you know, the equal and opposite. So if you fix 01:00:15.510 --> 01:00:17.190 this and you do, and it's funny because I was 01:00:17.190 --> 01:00:19.550 at Google HQ in London, I think it was like two 01:00:19.550 --> 01:00:23.789 years ago now. Jim. Free, you know, the restaurant 01:00:23.789 --> 01:00:26.210 was free as all kinds of healthy, healthy foods 01:00:26.210 --> 01:00:28.730 there. They kind of controlled their own schedule. 01:00:29.269 --> 01:00:31.250 I just posted something the other day in the 01:00:31.250 --> 01:00:35.050 UK. Now, 200 companies have gone to a four day, 01:00:35.230 --> 01:00:38.530 nine hour work week because they realize that 01:00:38.530 --> 01:00:40.670 they get the same level of productivity. People 01:00:40.670 --> 01:00:43.849 are being more innovative and efficient and they 01:00:43.849 --> 01:00:46.329 got a happier, healthier workforce. So this is 01:00:46.329 --> 01:00:48.409 what kind of makes me laugh is the fire service 01:00:48.409 --> 01:00:50.190 sometimes will refer to themselves as a business. 01:00:50.780 --> 01:00:52.739 And I always say, well, then why are you mirroring 01:00:52.739 --> 01:00:54.920 an Indonesian sweatshop rather than the progressive 01:00:54.920 --> 01:00:58.239 leaders in the corporate space? Yeah, I mean, 01:00:58.260 --> 01:01:01.079 I think I think there's opportunity there to, 01:01:01.239 --> 01:01:06.000 you know, model this out and test it in different 01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:08.340 geographies. And then let's let's get it. Let's 01:01:08.340 --> 01:01:10.800 get a sense of what that does. Right. You know, 01:01:10.800 --> 01:01:13.539 like you don't have to. I can respect that this 01:01:13.539 --> 01:01:16.500 must be a very large ship that has been moving 01:01:16.500 --> 01:01:18.579 in a certain direction since I think you said 01:01:18.579 --> 01:01:22.420 like the 80s, right? I get that. Fine. Can you 01:01:22.420 --> 01:01:25.199 shrink it down? Can you look at it at a house 01:01:25.199 --> 01:01:27.320 by house? Can you model this out? Can you test 01:01:27.320 --> 01:01:29.639 it? Can we see what kind of results we're getting 01:01:29.639 --> 01:01:34.159 from it so that we can then maybe secure good 01:01:34.159 --> 01:01:37.340 results somewhere, learn from it, and then expand 01:01:37.340 --> 01:01:40.599 to a little bit bigger? That would be my advice 01:01:40.599 --> 01:01:42.880 if anyone was asking for it. Not that anyone 01:01:42.880 --> 01:01:45.980 is, but it's not like things just change overnight. 01:01:46.139 --> 01:01:50.300 And I respect that. But again, if it's not working 01:01:50.300 --> 01:01:52.139 out for us, like we're going to have to do something 01:01:52.139 --> 01:01:56.900 different. That's really the core of what we 01:01:56.900 --> 01:01:59.239 talk to a lot of businesses about and leaders 01:01:59.239 --> 01:02:03.800 about. And really why we wrote this book, Perseverance 01:02:03.800 --> 01:02:06.519 is Greater Than Endurance, because. And eventually 01:02:06.519 --> 01:02:10.099 we all reach the extent of our endurance. And 01:02:10.099 --> 01:02:11.920 when we think about endurance, we think about 01:02:11.920 --> 01:02:15.320 it in terms of, you know, kind of getting through 01:02:15.320 --> 01:02:19.400 a defined period of hardship, right? It's a defined 01:02:19.400 --> 01:02:21.159 hardship. You know, it's going to be difficult. 01:02:21.300 --> 01:02:22.880 You kind of got to put your shoulder to the wheel 01:02:22.880 --> 01:02:26.440 and you get through it. And you could think about 01:02:26.440 --> 01:02:28.760 it kind of like a marathon in this way. So, you 01:02:28.760 --> 01:02:30.840 know, when you sign up for a marathon, you know 01:02:30.840 --> 01:02:33.480 the course. You know the map. You know you'll 01:02:33.480 --> 01:02:35.039 have to hydrate. You know you have to get some 01:02:35.039 --> 01:02:36.539 fuel in there. You know you'll probably hit a 01:02:36.539 --> 01:02:38.960 wall at some point in there, but you'll get through 01:02:38.960 --> 01:02:40.880 it. Your training will get you through it. The 01:02:40.880 --> 01:02:42.960 way that you have prepared for it, the way that 01:02:42.960 --> 01:02:47.659 you do it will get you through it. So in that 01:02:47.659 --> 01:02:50.039 way, on a course from point A to point B, by 01:02:50.039 --> 01:02:51.500 the time you get to point B, you're essentially 01:02:51.500 --> 01:02:53.880 more tired version of who you were at point A. 01:02:54.340 --> 01:02:58.239 Not the same with perseverance, right? By the 01:02:58.239 --> 01:03:00.739 time you get to point B with perseverance, you 01:03:00.739 --> 01:03:02.619 are not the same person who started the course 01:03:02.619 --> 01:03:07.219 at point A. And in this way, you have grown. 01:03:07.360 --> 01:03:11.820 You have changed to become the leader the situation 01:03:11.820 --> 01:03:15.000 calls for, the person the circumstances call 01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:18.880 for, because you've run all the plays already. 01:03:19.019 --> 01:03:21.719 You've endured. You've held on. And it's not 01:03:21.719 --> 01:03:24.250 working. You're not getting the result that you're 01:03:24.250 --> 01:03:27.250 looking for. So you're going to have to transform 01:03:27.250 --> 01:03:31.150 in order to achieve the goals that you have set 01:03:31.150 --> 01:03:33.530 out for in order to be effective for the mission 01:03:33.530 --> 01:03:37.469 that you're on. And in this way, we would call 01:03:37.469 --> 01:03:40.510 perseverance greater than endurance. It's not 01:03:40.510 --> 01:03:43.349 that endurance isn't valuable, but to me, it 01:03:43.349 --> 01:03:45.550 sounds like there's an awful lot of folks out 01:03:45.550 --> 01:03:49.449 there. that are enduring. They're just kind of 01:03:49.449 --> 01:03:51.130 holding on. Well, this is always the way we've 01:03:51.130 --> 01:03:52.250 done it. And this is the way that we're going 01:03:52.250 --> 01:03:54.690 to do it. Well, I had to work a 54 hour week. 01:03:54.730 --> 01:03:56.449 So then you're going to have to work a 54 hour 01:03:56.449 --> 01:03:58.789 week. We'll go back in time. Well, I miss my 01:03:58.789 --> 01:04:00.329 kid's birth. So you're going to have to miss 01:04:00.329 --> 01:04:02.590 your kid's birth. Okay, great. Well, you know, 01:04:02.650 --> 01:04:06.130 I guess I'll just leave. And I would guess that's 01:04:06.130 --> 01:04:09.710 what's starting to happen. Right. And it's just 01:04:09.710 --> 01:04:12.590 not working is the point like it's it's irrelevant 01:04:12.590 --> 01:04:15.449 if if that's what worked back then it doesn't 01:04:15.449 --> 01:04:18.469 work today is the point and and i think that 01:04:18.469 --> 01:04:22.269 when you cultures that are excellent transform 01:04:22.269 --> 01:04:26.349 over time a culture that is committed to excellence 01:04:26.349 --> 01:04:28.269 that's committed to the mission committed to 01:04:28.269 --> 01:04:33.949 the values of of the organization will transform 01:04:33.949 --> 01:04:38.840 to meet the need that today has for that organization, 01:04:39.139 --> 01:04:42.599 for those people, for that mission. And it's 01:04:42.599 --> 01:04:45.800 not that like old is bad and new is good. It's 01:04:45.800 --> 01:04:48.760 that old was good and relevant is good. And it 01:04:48.760 --> 01:04:50.880 sounds to me like it's an opportunity to kind 01:04:50.880 --> 01:04:53.920 of assess and maybe make some choices around 01:04:53.920 --> 01:04:57.099 just transforming a little bit of this, because 01:04:57.099 --> 01:04:59.400 we saw this a lot in COVID and that's kind of 01:04:59.400 --> 01:05:02.019 where we ended up kind of coming out of this. 01:05:02.139 --> 01:05:04.019 And we had some businesses that said, can you 01:05:04.019 --> 01:05:07.159 help us? Maybe draw on some of your experiences, 01:05:07.360 --> 01:05:10.860 how you guys had to lead in the war, because 01:05:10.860 --> 01:05:14.380 we got to be honest with you. We've made the 01:05:14.380 --> 01:05:17.440 hard choices. We've had the hard decision calls. 01:05:18.519 --> 01:05:22.039 You know, we're kind of just holding on, hoping 01:05:22.039 --> 01:05:25.880 that things, quote, go back to normal. And that's 01:05:25.880 --> 01:05:27.980 just not that's not life. I'm sorry, but it's 01:05:27.980 --> 01:05:30.579 not like there is no going back to normal. Time 01:05:30.579 --> 01:05:33.460 always moves forward on the dial. Right. And 01:05:33.460 --> 01:05:37.860 so the question really is, how will you transform 01:05:37.860 --> 01:05:41.900 to meet the needs of the mission in the midst 01:05:41.900 --> 01:05:44.199 of the hardship of the moment that you are in? 01:05:44.400 --> 01:05:46.780 And that is really at the core of perseverance. 01:05:48.099 --> 01:05:50.260 An analogy just popped in my head when you were 01:05:50.260 --> 01:05:52.840 talking. Obviously, I'm familiar with your work, 01:05:52.940 --> 01:05:55.099 and I want to parallel that on the mental health 01:05:55.099 --> 01:05:58.320 side in a second. But I was thinking about Blockbuster 01:05:58.320 --> 01:06:03.730 Video. The mission is to deliver. a movie to 01:06:03.730 --> 01:06:07.369 the viewer. The way we used to do it was a VHS 01:06:07.369 --> 01:06:09.309 tape that you tape that you went to a store, 01:06:09.530 --> 01:06:11.730 took from a shelf, took home and put in your 01:06:11.730 --> 01:06:13.929 machine. Well, we're not going to change. That's 01:06:13.929 --> 01:06:15.829 the way we've always done it. We'll have that 01:06:15.829 --> 01:06:17.449 work out for you. Now we're in the streaming 01:06:17.449 --> 01:06:21.230 world. The mission is the same. You get a movie 01:06:21.230 --> 01:06:24.230 to a viewer, but now it's streamed through a 01:06:24.230 --> 01:06:27.610 device in your home onto your television. So 01:06:27.610 --> 01:06:30.110 digging your heels in and refusing to change 01:06:30.110 --> 01:06:33.170 the way you deliver your service. results in 01:06:33.170 --> 01:06:35.869 collabs. That's right. And, you know, there's 01:06:35.869 --> 01:06:37.750 the, there's the classic like business school 01:06:37.750 --> 01:06:42.849 example of Netflix approaching Blockbuster. Blockbuster 01:06:42.849 --> 01:06:45.190 video had the opportunity to purchase Netflix 01:06:45.190 --> 01:06:47.630 for like, I think it was like $50 million or 01:06:47.630 --> 01:06:53.230 something like that. And at the time, I believe 01:06:53.230 --> 01:06:55.489 it was the time when Netflix would do like the, 01:06:55.570 --> 01:06:58.949 they would mail you. like the DVD. Yeah, it was 01:06:58.949 --> 01:07:01.710 like they would mail you the DVD and Blockbuster's 01:07:01.710 --> 01:07:04.349 like, nah, you know, bah, I don't want none of 01:07:04.349 --> 01:07:06.789 that. You know, people like to come to the store, 01:07:07.010 --> 01:07:08.750 blah, blah, blah. How'd that work out for you? 01:07:09.170 --> 01:07:12.610 You know, Blockbuster no longer exists. Netflix 01:07:12.610 --> 01:07:18.150 is everywhere. Absolutely. Well, another interesting 01:07:18.150 --> 01:07:20.489 parallel. I think this is a beautiful application 01:07:20.489 --> 01:07:23.449 of what you're talking about as well. When I 01:07:23.449 --> 01:07:25.309 think of our men and women that are struggling. 01:07:25.929 --> 01:07:28.550 that have all these unaddressed elements, whether 01:07:28.550 --> 01:07:30.130 it was their early life, whether it was their 01:07:30.130 --> 01:07:33.510 service and they're leaning into the alcohol, 01:07:33.610 --> 01:07:36.670 the gambling, the social media rants, whatever 01:07:36.670 --> 01:07:40.070 their kind of outlet is, they're hanging on. 01:07:40.130 --> 01:07:41.929 They're enduring. They're still going to work 01:07:41.929 --> 01:07:43.809 every day. They're still putting their gear on 01:07:43.809 --> 01:07:47.110 the rig. But again, that's not getting them anywhere. 01:07:47.590 --> 01:07:50.329 Then you hear of these incredible stories, which 01:07:50.329 --> 01:07:53.130 are, you know, frequent where someone has figured 01:07:53.130 --> 01:07:56.099 out. That they're going to have to accumulate 01:07:56.099 --> 01:07:59.179 a toolbox to work on the things that are beneath 01:07:59.179 --> 01:08:02.320 the surface, the thing beneath the thing. And 01:08:02.320 --> 01:08:05.860 then through EMDR and talk therapy and psychedelics 01:08:05.860 --> 01:08:08.960 and canines and all these other things, they 01:08:08.960 --> 01:08:11.900 have this post -traumatic growth. So they didn't 01:08:11.900 --> 01:08:16.039 endure their mental health crisis. They persevered 01:08:16.039 --> 01:08:18.520 the journey, including working on themselves 01:08:18.520 --> 01:08:23.449 and came out the 2 .0 beautifully. more resilient 01:08:23.449 --> 01:08:27.069 version of themselves on the other end. Yeah, 01:08:27.130 --> 01:08:29.369 that's right. I mean, that's my story right there, 01:08:29.430 --> 01:08:34.090 James, you know, in a nutshell. You know, like 01:08:34.090 --> 01:08:38.510 I was holding on, you know, I went six years 01:08:38.510 --> 01:08:42.350 with undiagnosed PTSD, right? And I remember 01:08:42.350 --> 01:08:48.970 I went into the VA again, and it was kind of 01:08:48.970 --> 01:08:51.890 like a teammate, Dana, you know, one of my... 01:08:52.439 --> 01:08:54.399 teammates at Team Red, White, and Blue, which 01:08:54.399 --> 01:08:58.500 is a veteran service organization that helps 01:08:58.500 --> 01:09:00.939 to enrich veterans' lives by connecting them 01:09:00.939 --> 01:09:02.979 to their community through physical and social 01:09:02.979 --> 01:09:05.720 activity. So we did 50 ,000 events a year. I 01:09:05.720 --> 01:09:07.359 was on the leadership team of that. Blaine was 01:09:07.359 --> 01:09:10.840 our executive director. And we were out doing 01:09:10.840 --> 01:09:13.279 an event, and my teammate Dana, who is a Navy 01:09:13.279 --> 01:09:18.479 veteran, was like, hey, which VA clinic do you 01:09:18.479 --> 01:09:22.390 go to to get your health care? I said, I don't 01:09:22.390 --> 01:09:24.189 go to one. She said, what do you mean you don't 01:09:24.189 --> 01:09:26.770 go to a VA clinic? I said, mom, I don't. I just 01:09:26.770 --> 01:09:29.670 said, what's your disability status? I said, 01:09:29.729 --> 01:09:33.590 I don't have one. She's like, wait, that's not 01:09:33.590 --> 01:09:37.770 possible. You were in the army for 11 years and 01:09:37.770 --> 01:09:43.270 you were a ranger and you have no coverage under 01:09:43.270 --> 01:09:46.550 the VA. She said, I drove a ship for four years. 01:09:46.649 --> 01:09:49.739 I'm like 30%. covered and I get all my healthcare 01:09:49.739 --> 01:09:51.840 from the VA and it's great. And I'm like, oh, 01:09:51.899 --> 01:09:53.840 okay. And she's like, you're going to go sit 01:09:53.840 --> 01:09:55.840 down with a friend of mine. This is what I love 01:09:55.840 --> 01:09:59.439 about like the, you know, I love, I love the 01:09:59.439 --> 01:10:03.000 service industries, like the, the population, 01:10:03.000 --> 01:10:04.699 because you'll have a teammate just put their 01:10:04.699 --> 01:10:06.579 finger in your chest and say like, you're going 01:10:06.579 --> 01:10:09.180 to go see somebody. And I'm just like, ah, you 01:10:09.180 --> 01:10:12.600 know, whatever. But I did. And I, I went in the, 01:10:12.600 --> 01:10:16.710 the gentleman was a, um, He was a veteran service 01:10:16.710 --> 01:10:20.489 officer. These folks exist out there in the United 01:10:20.489 --> 01:10:23.229 States that are designed to help you kind of 01:10:23.229 --> 01:10:27.069 submit your claims and get all of your stuff 01:10:27.069 --> 01:10:29.409 documented so that you can just get the health 01:10:29.409 --> 01:10:33.430 care that you need, really, after serving. And 01:10:33.430 --> 01:10:38.829 he was a retired Marine infantry officer. And 01:10:38.829 --> 01:10:42.340 he sat down with me and he said. yeah, okay. 01:10:42.420 --> 01:10:44.720 So I think we need to submit, you know, for PTSD 01:10:44.720 --> 01:10:47.840 and, you know, obviously all the other musculoskeletal 01:10:47.840 --> 01:10:49.640 stuff, but now it's like, ah, I don't have PTSD. 01:10:51.220 --> 01:10:58.100 And he's like, okay. Uh, he's like, well, you 01:10:58.100 --> 01:10:59.819 know, I think we might want to submit it. And 01:10:59.819 --> 01:11:04.180 why don't you just let a, uh, um, psychiatrist 01:11:04.180 --> 01:11:07.520 tell you if you do or don't. And I'm like, eh, 01:11:07.680 --> 01:11:10.020 I don't really want to. You know, like I don't, 01:11:10.020 --> 01:11:12.079 I even, I remember writing in my letter to the 01:11:12.079 --> 01:11:15.560 VA, I don't have PTSD. And he said, I'll tell 01:11:15.560 --> 01:11:17.779 you what, do me, do me a favor. I'm going to 01:11:17.779 --> 01:11:20.880 send you home with two pieces of paper. And they're 01:11:20.880 --> 01:11:22.659 the exact same thing. It was like this image 01:11:22.659 --> 01:11:25.640 of a knight and the knight had all these lines 01:11:25.640 --> 01:11:28.180 like off of different parts of it. So it was 01:11:28.180 --> 01:11:31.579 like, um, off the shield, there was a line that 01:11:31.579 --> 01:11:34.529 said hypervigilance. And then off of the sword, 01:11:34.670 --> 01:11:36.930 there was a line and it said like hyper aggressive 01:11:36.930 --> 01:11:39.449 and it had all of these different things, trouble 01:11:39.449 --> 01:11:43.130 sleeping, you know, cognitive, blah, blah, blah, 01:11:43.170 --> 01:11:44.670 all these different things. He said, I want you 01:11:44.670 --> 01:11:45.869 to take this home and I'm gonna give you two 01:11:45.869 --> 01:11:49.850 manila envelopes. I want you to circle the things 01:11:49.850 --> 01:11:52.010 that you see in yourself. And I want you to give 01:11:52.010 --> 01:11:53.649 this other one to Kelly. And I want you to have 01:11:53.649 --> 01:11:57.310 her circle the things that she sees in you. And 01:11:57.310 --> 01:11:58.750 then I want you to have her put it in the manila 01:11:58.750 --> 01:12:01.430 envelope and you put yours in yours. And come 01:12:01.430 --> 01:12:02.989 back and we'll sit down and we'll look at it 01:12:02.989 --> 01:12:05.689 together. I said, okay. So I did the assignment. 01:12:06.210 --> 01:12:09.310 I think I circled like four things. I think Kelly 01:12:09.310 --> 01:12:13.750 circled almost all of them. And he just sat there 01:12:13.750 --> 01:12:18.069 and he's like, brother, this is not normal. You 01:12:18.069 --> 01:12:21.750 have a normal response to an abnormal set of 01:12:21.750 --> 01:12:24.270 circumstances. And I think that we should probably 01:12:24.270 --> 01:12:28.649 lean into it a little bit. Let's just get you 01:12:28.649 --> 01:12:30.420 checked out. So I was like, all right, I'll get 01:12:30.420 --> 01:12:33.000 checked out. I go in there. I start talking to 01:12:33.000 --> 01:12:38.279 this, you know, psychiatrist. And, you know, 01:12:38.300 --> 01:12:40.199 at the end of the whole thing, and the thing 01:12:40.199 --> 01:12:43.699 is, James, is I told her the truth. It was the 01:12:43.699 --> 01:12:46.880 first time I told one of these providers the 01:12:46.880 --> 01:12:51.439 truth. The truth that I, you know, I haven't 01:12:51.439 --> 01:12:53.840 slept through the night since I can remember. 01:12:57.369 --> 01:13:00.470 burn my kids down to the ground at the smallest 01:13:00.470 --> 01:13:05.250 drop of the hat for no reason. I am, you know, 01:13:05.250 --> 01:13:07.930 hypervigilant. I, all these different things, 01:13:07.930 --> 01:13:11.630 like I'm like a lit fuse all the time. And I 01:13:11.630 --> 01:13:14.649 don't know how to stop. I can't stop. I can't 01:13:14.649 --> 01:13:20.989 like figure it out. And she said, okay, so you 01:13:20.989 --> 01:13:27.239 have PTSD. And I said, like, that's it. She said, 01:13:27.319 --> 01:13:29.140 yeah, you were a ranger. You went to war four 01:13:29.140 --> 01:13:30.520 times. Did you really think it was going to be 01:13:30.520 --> 01:13:36.420 different? And I'm like, well, I mean, if you 01:13:36.420 --> 01:13:38.840 put it that way, like, I mean, I guess no, but 01:13:38.840 --> 01:13:42.039 I thought I would be different. I thought I could 01:13:42.039 --> 01:13:44.899 punch my way through this. Like I've punched 01:13:44.899 --> 01:13:46.880 my way through everything from the time that 01:13:46.880 --> 01:13:51.619 I was a kid. And I started just crying, James. 01:13:51.720 --> 01:13:54.720 Like I was just like weeping. And she's like, 01:13:54.819 --> 01:13:58.119 hey. You also have had a number of traumatic 01:13:58.119 --> 01:14:01.819 brain injuries that I knew that I had had, but 01:14:01.819 --> 01:14:08.119 I had never declared it. And she said, we think 01:14:08.119 --> 01:14:11.819 we can help. Let's try some stuff. And I'm like, 01:14:11.880 --> 01:14:13.819 let me guess. This is where you're going to throw 01:14:13.819 --> 01:14:18.399 me a bag of pills and gork me out on some shit. 01:14:18.500 --> 01:14:21.840 And she's like, no, my first prescription for 01:14:21.840 --> 01:14:24.699 you is yoga. I want you to start doing yoga. 01:14:25.319 --> 01:14:29.779 And I'm like, yoga, like what? And, you know, 01:14:29.779 --> 01:14:32.039 that was kind of the beginning of a next phase 01:14:32.039 --> 01:14:36.340 of healing for me that was just really critical. 01:14:36.399 --> 01:14:39.300 And I would just say that we got to start, we 01:14:39.300 --> 01:14:41.619 got to start with ourselves. And I think we got 01:14:41.619 --> 01:14:44.220 to start with each other. The fact that I had, 01:14:44.220 --> 01:14:48.060 you know, other trusted brothers and sisters 01:14:48.060 --> 01:14:51.579 who had experienced it and said like, hey, dude, 01:14:51.659 --> 01:14:54.079 you're not like, it's not like you're like crazy. 01:14:54.649 --> 01:14:57.750 You're not like a bad person. You're like normal 01:14:57.750 --> 01:15:02.909 and you probably need some help. That helped. 01:15:03.109 --> 01:15:05.750 And then the willingness to actually step in 01:15:05.750 --> 01:15:09.449 and like cut the shit and be honest and say like, 01:15:09.470 --> 01:15:13.930 I am not OK. I am not OK. Right. And I knew I 01:15:13.930 --> 01:15:17.260 wasn't OK. I had had the suicidal ideations. 01:15:17.659 --> 01:15:20.600 I had had all the stuff, but I was just like, 01:15:20.619 --> 01:15:22.220 I'll stuff it down. I'll stuff it down. I'll 01:15:22.220 --> 01:15:24.960 stuff it down. I'll compartmentalize it because 01:15:24.960 --> 01:15:27.600 that's what we're trained to do. We're trained 01:15:27.600 --> 01:15:31.579 into mastery of dissociation because you have 01:15:31.579 --> 01:15:33.340 to. I mean, for God's sakes, the things that 01:15:33.340 --> 01:15:35.920 you're experiencing out there, I mean, goodness 01:15:35.920 --> 01:15:38.579 sakes, and the fire services, the fact, the trauma 01:15:38.579 --> 01:15:40.800 that you guys are walking into every single day, 01:15:40.899 --> 01:15:44.060 oh my goodness. You have to learn how to dissociate 01:15:44.060 --> 01:15:47.789 it. That's fine. You cannot live in a dissociated 01:15:47.789 --> 01:15:49.789 state and be well for the rest of your life. 01:15:49.850 --> 01:15:52.449 It just doesn't work that way. You know, because 01:15:52.449 --> 01:15:54.689 guess what? Like, you know, we all know the body 01:15:54.689 --> 01:15:58.250 keeps the score, right? Your body is keeping 01:15:58.250 --> 01:16:01.029 that score and feeling it. And so you're stuck 01:16:01.029 --> 01:16:04.750 in this state of dissociation. You're stuck in 01:16:04.750 --> 01:16:07.010 a state where your sympathetic nervous system 01:16:07.010 --> 01:16:10.510 is completely activated at all times. Your, you 01:16:10.510 --> 01:16:14.779 know, your limbic system is hijacked. Yeah, there's 01:16:14.779 --> 01:16:17.180 no wonder you can't work your way out of it because 01:16:17.180 --> 01:16:19.739 you literally cannot get into your prefrontal 01:16:19.739 --> 01:16:24.680 cortex because you're already in that limbic 01:16:24.680 --> 01:16:27.899 part of space of your brain. How long are you 01:16:27.899 --> 01:16:29.939 going to go with that? I mean, shoot, I went 01:16:29.939 --> 01:16:32.100 most of my life with that. And I can tell you 01:16:32.100 --> 01:16:36.319 that I paid the price for it. And so did the 01:16:36.319 --> 01:16:40.220 people that I love the most. You mentioned suicide 01:16:40.220 --> 01:16:42.520 ideation. This is something I try and... kind 01:16:42.520 --> 01:16:44.979 of just just ask people basically anyone who's 01:16:44.979 --> 01:16:48.399 been there the reason behind it when we were 01:16:48.399 --> 01:16:51.060 young we were told that suicide was cowardly 01:16:51.060 --> 01:16:53.439 and selfish and how could they think of your 01:16:53.439 --> 01:16:57.500 wife and your kids and then you hear hundreds 01:16:57.500 --> 01:17:01.479 of stories of people that were right there and 01:17:01.479 --> 01:17:04.140 didn't or some of whom went through it and survived 01:17:04.140 --> 01:17:09.699 it and more almost every single one of them when 01:17:09.699 --> 01:17:12.050 they actually were at that point There was a 01:17:12.050 --> 01:17:15.729 true belief. Their reality had solidified the 01:17:15.729 --> 01:17:18.710 fact that they were the reason for their family's 01:17:18.710 --> 01:17:21.630 pain. And if they just remove themselves from 01:17:21.630 --> 01:17:24.210 the equation, their wife, their kids would be 01:17:24.210 --> 01:17:27.630 happier. Makes no sense to a healthy brain. Makes 01:17:27.630 --> 01:17:30.270 complete sense to someone who, through the perfect 01:17:30.270 --> 01:17:33.369 storm of all these contributing factors, has 01:17:33.369 --> 01:17:37.779 found themselves in a distorted state. When you 01:17:37.779 --> 01:17:40.079 think back now, was that the voice whispering 01:17:40.079 --> 01:17:46.979 in your ear as well? I think for me, what I felt 01:17:46.979 --> 01:17:49.720 more than anything is that I just wanted the 01:17:49.720 --> 01:17:53.479 pain to stop. I just didn't want to hurt anymore. 01:17:54.720 --> 01:17:58.180 And that little voice was certainly working on 01:17:58.180 --> 01:18:02.659 me in all of that. And, you know, sadly, the 01:18:02.659 --> 01:18:06.060 first time I remember coming to that conclusion. 01:18:06.970 --> 01:18:11.729 was when I was 11. That's the first time I can 01:18:11.729 --> 01:18:16.550 remember contemplating, I think I'd like, I think 01:18:16.550 --> 01:18:18.890 I'd like to no longer be here anymore. I think 01:18:18.890 --> 01:18:22.050 I'd like to end my life. And I think that what, 01:18:22.090 --> 01:18:25.449 what we see is, you know, loss of perspective, 01:18:25.689 --> 01:18:28.609 loss of hope, you know, can't kind of see your 01:18:28.609 --> 01:18:32.250 way out of that darkness. And that small voice 01:18:32.250 --> 01:18:35.920 that says those things like, There is evil in 01:18:35.920 --> 01:18:39.220 creation. There is evil in the world. And that 01:18:39.220 --> 01:18:42.319 evil, you know, unfortunately, I think based 01:18:42.319 --> 01:18:48.180 on the, you know, the service professions, uniformed 01:18:48.180 --> 01:18:51.140 folks, unfortunately, we have confronted that 01:18:51.140 --> 01:18:54.500 evil face to face. We have seen, you know, that 01:18:54.500 --> 01:18:58.000 corruption, the corruption of what was intended 01:18:58.000 --> 01:19:01.539 to be good, you know, in creation around us, 01:19:01.600 --> 01:19:06.640 you know, human beings, people. um cultures uh 01:19:06.640 --> 01:19:11.539 settings like we have seen that darkness and 01:19:11.539 --> 01:19:13.420 i think a lot of times it feels like you know 01:19:13.420 --> 01:19:16.859 you you you touch that darkness so many times 01:19:16.859 --> 01:19:19.239 that it feels like it starts to stick to you 01:19:19.239 --> 01:19:22.659 you know and and and it's and it starts to cover 01:19:22.659 --> 01:19:26.460 you and i think that that voice starts to tell 01:19:26.460 --> 01:19:31.920 you you know that's who you are you're worthless 01:19:31.920 --> 01:19:35.100 you're You're no better than any, you know, of 01:19:35.100 --> 01:19:37.020 the darkness that you have walked through or 01:19:37.020 --> 01:19:39.640 that you have experienced. You know, you are 01:19:39.640 --> 01:19:42.159 the darkness. And that is a lie from the pit 01:19:42.159 --> 01:19:47.680 of hell. That is a lie. And I have seen friends 01:19:47.680 --> 01:19:51.180 succumb to that lie who are no longer with us. 01:19:51.720 --> 01:19:55.840 And I have seen friends who have bought that 01:19:55.840 --> 01:19:58.859 lie, made the attempt and, you know, thanks be 01:19:58.859 --> 01:20:01.699 to God, have survived on the other side of it. 01:20:02.250 --> 01:20:05.449 Um, but that common denominator is that I think 01:20:05.449 --> 01:20:09.270 we buy the lie. Uh, we buy the lie and it is, 01:20:09.270 --> 01:20:12.170 it is not true. You know, you were meant to be 01:20:12.170 --> 01:20:15.970 loved. You were created to be loved. That's the 01:20:15.970 --> 01:20:19.689 truth. And all this nastiness that we experience 01:20:19.689 --> 01:20:23.369 in war or, you know, the, the war that is unfolding 01:20:23.369 --> 01:20:26.569 in our communities, the trauma that is everywhere. 01:20:27.090 --> 01:20:32.970 Um, we all feel whatever your Whatever your spiritual 01:20:32.970 --> 01:20:38.369 perspective is on reality, I think a common experience 01:20:38.369 --> 01:20:40.970 is that we all feel like something is just not 01:20:40.970 --> 01:20:44.710 right here. This is just not right. This is not 01:20:44.710 --> 01:20:48.770 how it should be. Our children should not be. 01:20:49.739 --> 01:20:52.960 experiencing these things, like the calls that 01:20:52.960 --> 01:20:55.399 you guys go on, like we should not be seeing 01:20:55.399 --> 01:20:57.560 this in the neighbor's house next door. Good 01:20:57.560 --> 01:21:00.739 God, what is happening? Something is not quite 01:21:00.739 --> 01:21:04.140 right here. And I think that that just like it 01:21:04.140 --> 01:21:07.579 compounds and, you know, it sticks to us. And 01:21:07.579 --> 01:21:11.260 I think that doing the work to kind of reframe 01:21:11.260 --> 01:21:14.680 and to regain some perspective and to get a little 01:21:14.680 --> 01:21:17.439 bit of distance from the heart distance from 01:21:17.439 --> 01:21:22.880 that. It's just so critical because otherwise 01:21:22.880 --> 01:21:25.520 I think we lose hope, we lose perspective, and 01:21:25.520 --> 01:21:27.640 then we end up losing our brothers and sisters 01:21:27.640 --> 01:21:30.720 who we love so dearly. And it doesn't get better. 01:21:30.920 --> 01:21:33.720 It does not get better for the family that is 01:21:33.720 --> 01:21:36.159 left behind. It doesn't get better for any of 01:21:36.159 --> 01:21:41.520 us who are left behind. No, exactly. This is 01:21:41.520 --> 01:21:44.579 what breaks my heart, too, when you see the deliberate 01:21:44.579 --> 01:21:47.149 division. whether it's news stations, politicians, 01:21:47.409 --> 01:21:50.369 whatever it is, is that's just creating more 01:21:50.369 --> 01:21:52.550 and more of an environment for this suffering, 01:21:52.670 --> 01:21:56.189 for this arguably moral injury. And even myself, 01:21:56.289 --> 01:22:00.930 on this pursuit to try and save first responder 01:22:00.930 --> 01:22:03.930 lives, there's a moral injury element to the 01:22:03.930 --> 01:22:07.569 resistance, to the apathy of action. I mean, 01:22:07.569 --> 01:22:09.590 all these contributing factors, when you really 01:22:09.590 --> 01:22:12.430 are a servant, when you've got that kind of humanity 01:22:12.430 --> 01:22:17.770 burning in your soul, people just don't see that 01:22:17.770 --> 01:22:19.949 there are changes for the suffering whether it's 01:22:19.949 --> 01:22:21.970 like you said domestic or sexual abuse behind 01:22:21.970 --> 01:22:24.989 closed doors whether it's disruption of families 01:22:24.989 --> 01:22:28.210 through horrendous mismanagement of a fire department 01:22:28.210 --> 01:22:30.970 you know whatever it is that takes its toll as 01:22:30.970 --> 01:22:32.949 well you know and the number of people that i've 01:22:32.949 --> 01:22:35.829 heard from the first responder professions that 01:22:35.829 --> 01:22:38.949 have seen some horrible shit But it was actually 01:22:38.949 --> 01:22:41.590 the organizational betrayal, the toxic culture 01:22:41.590 --> 01:22:44.250 and where they worked that was the most detrimental 01:22:44.250 --> 01:22:47.710 to their mental health. That's right. Yeah. I 01:22:47.710 --> 01:22:50.569 am so appreciative of you bringing moral injury 01:22:50.569 --> 01:22:53.590 into this discussion because this was something 01:22:53.590 --> 01:22:57.470 that I focused on a lot. When I was getting my 01:22:57.470 --> 01:23:00.710 Masters of Divinity at Denver Seminary on the 01:23:00.710 --> 01:23:02.649 topic of moral injury, because it is uniquely 01:23:02.649 --> 01:23:04.550 different from post -traumatic stress disorder. 01:23:05.189 --> 01:23:08.310 And, you know, like the VA doesn't really have 01:23:08.310 --> 01:23:10.729 a category for this. Like this is kind of one 01:23:10.729 --> 01:23:13.970 of the issues in my community. I think it's very 01:23:13.970 --> 01:23:16.770 comparable. I think it's happening in both communities. 01:23:16.869 --> 01:23:20.210 Let me just say that. And if I'm reaching too 01:23:20.210 --> 01:23:22.789 far in that, then please let me know. No, you're 01:23:22.789 --> 01:23:26.270 right. But I think moral injury, we've got to 01:23:26.270 --> 01:23:28.590 start addressing this and talking about it as 01:23:28.590 --> 01:23:31.369 well, because, you know, as human beings, we 01:23:31.369 --> 01:23:36.430 are mind, body and soul, right? You break a bone, 01:23:36.569 --> 01:23:38.970 you go to the doctor, you get that fixed. You 01:23:38.970 --> 01:23:41.750 experience a traumatic event and you're, you 01:23:41.750 --> 01:23:43.770 know, you're re -experiencing your trauma in 01:23:43.770 --> 01:23:46.449 there. You go to a therapist, you go get some 01:23:46.449 --> 01:23:50.149 EMDR, you address it, right? What happens when 01:23:50.149 --> 01:23:54.170 you sustain an injury to the soul? Where are 01:23:54.170 --> 01:23:57.710 you going with that? And that is moral injury. 01:23:57.930 --> 01:24:01.670 And that is where I think this is where the chaplains 01:24:01.670 --> 01:24:05.350 out there, the spiritual providers that are out 01:24:05.350 --> 01:24:09.630 there, we have a place in that to be able to 01:24:09.630 --> 01:24:12.970 kind of speak into and approach this idea of 01:24:12.970 --> 01:24:16.369 moral injury, because moral injury is an injury 01:24:16.369 --> 01:24:19.840 sustained upon the soul where You have committed 01:24:19.840 --> 01:24:22.699 an act that has been in violation of your moral 01:24:22.699 --> 01:24:28.000 compass. An act that violates your moral compass, 01:24:28.119 --> 01:24:34.699 your values, has been cast upon you. Or you no 01:24:34.699 --> 01:24:37.399 longer, because of the things that you have experienced, 01:24:37.479 --> 01:24:40.039 whether it be maybe a combination of one or two, 01:24:40.220 --> 01:24:43.279 have experienced a wound upon your soul where 01:24:43.279 --> 01:24:47.579 you no longer trust. That others will operate 01:24:47.579 --> 01:24:51.300 in a moral manner or in a manner that is in keeping 01:24:51.300 --> 01:24:55.340 with your values around you. Like these are kind 01:24:55.340 --> 01:24:59.439 of categorically aspects of moral injury. And 01:24:59.439 --> 01:25:02.680 we've got to kind of deal with that as well, 01:25:02.800 --> 01:25:05.340 because that I would say that was a big part 01:25:05.340 --> 01:25:10.800 of my woundedness that I did not really I didn't 01:25:10.800 --> 01:25:15.279 really approach. until much later in my healing 01:25:15.279 --> 01:25:18.000 journey. I wasn't ready for it, you know, but, 01:25:18.039 --> 01:25:20.920 but, and I'll tell you, you know, violation of 01:25:20.920 --> 01:25:25.180 your own principles. Here's the truth. I deployed 01:25:25.180 --> 01:25:27.760 to Afghanistan the first time. It wasn't even 01:25:27.760 --> 01:25:30.739 a question for me. I knew Kelly was pregnant. 01:25:31.819 --> 01:25:35.279 You know, whether I did or did not have a choice 01:25:35.279 --> 01:25:37.279 in that, it didn't really matter. I will tell 01:25:37.279 --> 01:25:40.039 you the exact conversation that went down. My 01:25:40.039 --> 01:25:42.560 platoon sergeant met me in the hallway and said, 01:25:42.680 --> 01:25:46.079 we're going and we need you. And I said, I'm 01:25:46.079 --> 01:25:51.279 there. I'm going. It didn't take a second. And 01:25:51.279 --> 01:25:56.500 in that second, I made a choice that in some 01:25:56.500 --> 01:26:01.149 way violated my. moral compass, my code of ethic. 01:26:02.590 --> 01:26:05.949 And then I exacerbated that by going home and 01:26:05.949 --> 01:26:08.630 Kelly, who was waiting on pins and needles, you 01:26:08.630 --> 01:26:10.750 know, at this point in time about to pop, right? 01:26:11.090 --> 01:26:13.890 Are you going to be around for the birth? Are 01:26:13.890 --> 01:26:17.310 you this and that? And I lied to her, bold face 01:26:17.310 --> 01:26:21.229 to her, lied to her. Nope. They're sending me. 01:26:21.289 --> 01:26:26.489 There's nothing I can do. And I hid that lie. 01:26:27.640 --> 01:26:33.460 For 15 years. And I lied to her and I made her 01:26:33.460 --> 01:26:36.239 think that, you know, this is this is the way 01:26:36.239 --> 01:26:40.100 it was. And I lied to my kids. And that was an 01:26:40.100 --> 01:26:42.819 injury that I had sustained on my soul because 01:26:42.819 --> 01:26:49.279 I had violated my values. And I dealt with it. 01:26:49.420 --> 01:26:51.439 And I think that that's part of what happens 01:26:51.439 --> 01:26:54.399 out there is I hit it. I didn't deal with it. 01:26:54.439 --> 01:26:57.710 I hit it. Right. And a big part of addressing 01:26:57.710 --> 01:27:01.430 moral injury is bringing into the light that 01:27:01.430 --> 01:27:05.189 which is hiding in the darkness. And that lie, 01:27:05.250 --> 01:27:08.229 you know, was hiding in the darkness between 01:27:08.229 --> 01:27:10.850 my wife and I for years. It wasn't the only one 01:27:10.850 --> 01:27:13.069 hiding in the darkness, but it was one of them. 01:27:13.930 --> 01:27:16.670 And the bitterness that kind of kept building 01:27:16.670 --> 01:27:19.689 this wall between us, you know, I tell people 01:27:19.689 --> 01:27:22.840 like we really did lose our first marriage. You 01:27:22.840 --> 01:27:24.800 know, we didn't file the paperwork, but, you 01:27:24.800 --> 01:27:28.729 know, we screwed it up. And we had so much deception 01:27:28.729 --> 01:27:32.630 and lies built up between us. In 2018, we were 01:27:32.630 --> 01:27:36.569 invited to help our church start a marriage ministry. 01:27:36.949 --> 01:27:39.489 And we're like, okay, sure, we'll do this thing. 01:27:39.590 --> 01:27:42.789 We're fantastic, whatever, hubris. And we go 01:27:42.789 --> 01:27:44.430 down to the training for this. It's called Re 01:27:44.430 --> 01:27:47.250 -Engage. They train in Dallas, Texas at a church 01:27:47.250 --> 01:27:49.810 called Watermark. And I'm there for like 30 minutes 01:27:49.810 --> 01:27:51.989 and this woman is telling this story and she's 01:27:51.989 --> 01:27:54.489 like confessing these. transgressions that she 01:27:54.489 --> 01:27:56.130 has done. And I'm just like, I got to get the 01:27:56.130 --> 01:27:58.750 hell out of here. You know, like I want nothing 01:27:58.750 --> 01:28:01.609 to do with this. And what that led to is that 01:28:01.609 --> 01:28:05.850 Kelly and I sat down after 17 years of marriage 01:28:05.850 --> 01:28:09.829 and told each other the real story. And we, we 01:28:09.829 --> 01:28:14.069 confessed, we, you know, confess to God, confess 01:28:14.069 --> 01:28:16.270 to each other. We asked God for forgiveness. 01:28:16.350 --> 01:28:18.569 We asked each other for forgiveness. And that 01:28:18.569 --> 01:28:21.659 is a choice. That is a choice right there. You 01:28:21.659 --> 01:28:23.779 can grant forgiveness or you cannot grant forgiveness. 01:28:23.920 --> 01:28:27.100 That's a choice. That's up to you. We chose to 01:28:27.100 --> 01:28:29.319 grant one another forgiveness. And later that 01:28:29.319 --> 01:28:32.000 year, I felt compelled. I felt like God had put 01:28:32.000 --> 01:28:34.640 it on my heart to ask her to marry me again. 01:28:35.300 --> 01:28:38.300 And we got married in the church that we gave 01:28:38.300 --> 01:28:40.920 our lives to Christ in. And our son and our daughter 01:28:40.920 --> 01:28:43.960 were standing there by our sides as best man 01:28:43.960 --> 01:28:48.039 and maid of honor. All I can say is that, you 01:28:48.039 --> 01:28:51.659 know, God has resurrected what we could not do 01:28:51.659 --> 01:28:54.939 on our own. And a big part of that was wrestling 01:28:54.939 --> 01:28:58.380 with the damage, you know, that we had done upon 01:28:58.380 --> 01:29:00.640 our souls and that was done upon us. It wasn't 01:29:00.640 --> 01:29:03.319 just us, you know, like and making the choice 01:29:03.319 --> 01:29:06.979 to kind of put that into the light and zero out 01:29:06.979 --> 01:29:12.079 the debt. Right. And I would just submit that, 01:29:12.180 --> 01:29:18.340 you know. Look, if you're running, you know, 01:29:18.340 --> 01:29:21.439 stop running, face it, you know, and I'm not 01:29:21.439 --> 01:29:23.439 saying it's easy. I'm not saying you have to 01:29:23.439 --> 01:29:26.220 do it alone, you know, but face some of those 01:29:26.220 --> 01:29:30.180 injuries that are compounded upon your heart 01:29:30.180 --> 01:29:33.479 and know that you're not alone in doing that. 01:29:34.220 --> 01:29:38.140 You don't have to be alone in doing that. And 01:29:38.140 --> 01:29:41.300 I think that that really starts to lead to that 01:29:41.300 --> 01:29:43.659 transformation, that growth that's on the other 01:29:43.659 --> 01:29:47.029 side. of adversity when you truly persevere. 01:29:47.270 --> 01:29:51.350 Or you know what? You could just keep suffering. 01:29:52.569 --> 01:29:54.710 You know, you could just keep surviving. That's 01:29:54.710 --> 01:29:57.409 an option. It is an option. I don't think it's 01:29:57.409 --> 01:29:59.810 the best option. I can tell you I've tried it. 01:29:59.890 --> 01:30:04.489 You know, I did that well, right? You know, I've 01:30:04.489 --> 01:30:09.069 gone the distance in that. And yeah, you can 01:30:09.069 --> 01:30:11.729 hang on and survive. But I would suggest that 01:30:11.729 --> 01:30:14.050 it might be better to thrive. It might be better 01:30:14.050 --> 01:30:17.069 to persevere, to surrender some of those things 01:30:17.069 --> 01:30:19.430 that you're holding on to that you don't have 01:30:19.430 --> 01:30:21.430 to hold on to anymore. And you certainly don't 01:30:21.430 --> 01:30:25.250 have to hold on to alone. Absolutely. Well, that's 01:30:25.250 --> 01:30:28.390 a good segue. So let's talk about the book specifically 01:30:28.390 --> 01:30:31.430 now. How did you meet Blaine? And then ultimately, 01:30:31.489 --> 01:30:34.350 how did you guys decide to create this book? 01:30:35.789 --> 01:30:38.989 Blaine and I met. at a national sales meeting 01:30:38.989 --> 01:30:41.869 for a large healthcare organization that we were 01:30:41.869 --> 01:30:48.210 working for, Quest Diagnostics, in 2010. So we 01:30:48.210 --> 01:30:53.350 had both spent parallel tracks in the Army. He 01:30:53.350 --> 01:30:55.029 went to West Point, though, was commissioned 01:30:55.029 --> 01:30:59.329 as an officer, served in Iraq in the Cav, and 01:30:59.329 --> 01:31:01.069 then was a Green Beret and served in Afghanistan. 01:31:01.670 --> 01:31:04.729 My path was straight in and listed right out 01:31:04.729 --> 01:31:06.960 of high school. Spent nine years in the Ranger 01:31:06.960 --> 01:31:09.939 Regiment, 11 years total in the military. And 01:31:09.939 --> 01:31:12.079 so we had these parallel tracks and we both got 01:31:12.079 --> 01:31:14.739 out of the military at about the same time. Both 01:31:14.739 --> 01:31:20.399 of us looking to look, be normal people, I guess, 01:31:20.560 --> 01:31:24.220 put our families back together from what they 01:31:24.220 --> 01:31:28.380 had experienced. And so we met at a national 01:31:28.380 --> 01:31:30.720 sales meeting and we're kind of like, oh, you 01:31:30.720 --> 01:31:33.890 know, these are my people right here. developed 01:31:33.890 --> 01:31:37.329 a friendship. We then worked together. Blaine 01:31:37.329 --> 01:31:39.850 left that organization, became the first employee 01:31:39.850 --> 01:31:42.430 of Team Red, White and Blue, first executive 01:31:42.430 --> 01:31:44.670 director. And like a couple of years later, and 01:31:44.670 --> 01:31:48.109 this was after I had become a Christian and started 01:31:48.109 --> 01:31:50.189 was really walking in my Christian faith. And 01:31:50.189 --> 01:31:51.970 I was like, yeah, you know, it's great. I'm like 01:31:51.970 --> 01:31:54.289 leading this sales district and all this kind 01:31:54.289 --> 01:31:56.689 of stuff and making great money. But I don't 01:31:56.689 --> 01:31:57.729 really feel like I'm doing what I'm supposed 01:31:57.729 --> 01:32:01.170 to be doing anymore. I kind of come to the conclusion 01:32:01.170 --> 01:32:04.069 that I was going to make a change. Again, we 01:32:04.069 --> 01:32:06.869 talked about this chasing the achievements. I 01:32:06.869 --> 01:32:09.109 was chasing the achievements, top of the stack 01:32:09.109 --> 01:32:13.649 rankings, got a leadership position early. And 01:32:13.649 --> 01:32:15.289 it was always kind of like, why isn't this guy 01:32:15.289 --> 01:32:17.609 happy? He's got it all. And it's like, well, 01:32:17.630 --> 01:32:18.930 I wasn't happy because I was miserable inside. 01:32:20.689 --> 01:32:24.350 And Blaine calls me up and he's just like, hey, 01:32:24.390 --> 01:32:26.949 man, what do you think about coming over and 01:32:26.949 --> 01:32:29.390 helping us do revenue development? We think we're 01:32:29.390 --> 01:32:30.949 onto something here. And I'm like, dude, I don't 01:32:30.949 --> 01:32:34.810 know anything about nonprofit. But Blaine's a 01:32:34.810 --> 01:32:38.170 hell of a salesman. He got me to make the jump 01:32:38.170 --> 01:32:44.210 with a 60 % pay cut. And we did some amazing 01:32:44.210 --> 01:32:45.989 things. When we left that organization three 01:32:45.989 --> 01:32:50.989 and a half years later, we had 150 ,000 members 01:32:50.989 --> 01:32:53.909 operating in over 200 cities across the United 01:32:53.909 --> 01:32:56.890 States. We had operated against something we 01:32:56.890 --> 01:32:59.430 called the enrichment equation, which is health, 01:32:59.470 --> 01:33:02.350 people, and purpose. You need to have a rich 01:33:02.350 --> 01:33:04.090 life. You need to have physical health, mental 01:33:04.090 --> 01:33:06.909 health, social health, spiritual health. You 01:33:06.909 --> 01:33:09.949 need to have genuine relationships, a sense of 01:33:09.949 --> 01:33:12.470 engaged citizenship. You need to have a sense 01:33:12.470 --> 01:33:15.369 of purpose. And we helped veterans regain that 01:33:15.369 --> 01:33:20.109 after leaving the service. And it's amazing how 01:33:20.109 --> 01:33:24.010 we saw that really blossom and those really rich 01:33:24.010 --> 01:33:27.489 lives emerge. We went our separate ways and then 01:33:27.489 --> 01:33:32.079 kind of came back together. In the end of 2019, 01:33:32.380 --> 01:33:35.939 he and I just kind of connected and started a 01:33:35.939 --> 01:33:38.239 conversation. One conversation turned into many 01:33:38.239 --> 01:33:41.380 conversations. I had started grad school at Denver 01:33:41.380 --> 01:33:45.180 Seminary. He was kind of doing consulting a little 01:33:45.180 --> 01:33:47.800 bit here and there and said, I'm kind of just 01:33:47.800 --> 01:33:50.060 going to not do this anymore because I don't 01:33:50.060 --> 01:33:52.779 really want to be just out here on my own. I'm 01:33:52.779 --> 01:33:54.539 like, oh, that's cool. It sounds like an intriguing 01:33:54.539 --> 01:33:57.699 thing to get into, leadership development. We're 01:33:57.699 --> 01:34:01.640 both kind of students of the craft. That turned 01:34:01.640 --> 01:34:04.180 into me flying down to Tampa and spending three 01:34:04.180 --> 01:34:06.439 days around a whiteboard with some seriously 01:34:06.439 --> 01:34:11.239 supercharged quad coffees and turned into us 01:34:11.239 --> 01:34:13.720 launching our company, Applied Leadership Partners. 01:34:14.180 --> 01:34:17.420 And we really focus on sharing hard earned leadership 01:34:17.420 --> 01:34:22.439 wisdom with leaders in a host of different environments, 01:34:22.500 --> 01:34:26.520 but leaders who are hungry to. improve their 01:34:26.520 --> 01:34:29.479 effectiveness, create tighter teams, and create 01:34:29.479 --> 01:34:32.260 teams that can really operate for the long haul 01:34:32.260 --> 01:34:36.140 in a host of missions that really matter, missions 01:34:36.140 --> 01:34:39.260 that matter most out there in the world. And 01:34:39.260 --> 01:34:41.739 it was really funny, James, because we started 01:34:41.739 --> 01:34:44.260 our company in March of 2020, and three days 01:34:44.260 --> 01:34:48.300 later, the world shut down for COVID. And so 01:34:48.300 --> 01:34:50.199 we're like, well, hell, what do we do now? You 01:34:50.199 --> 01:34:52.560 know, this is kind of the first time that as 01:34:52.560 --> 01:34:55.890 to barrel -chested freedom fighters, so to speak, 01:34:56.109 --> 01:34:59.890 were on the sidelines of American crisis, while 01:34:59.890 --> 01:35:03.329 our wives were right there on the front lines. 01:35:03.390 --> 01:35:06.229 So my wife at the time was, she's a nurse, and 01:35:06.229 --> 01:35:09.470 she was in the emergency room of our local hospital 01:35:09.470 --> 01:35:13.449 emergency department. Blaine's wife is an intelligence 01:35:13.449 --> 01:35:17.850 professional, and she was working at SOCOM at 01:35:17.850 --> 01:35:20.779 the time. And so they were both kind of in it 01:35:20.779 --> 01:35:22.859 and we're on the sidelines like, well, what do 01:35:22.859 --> 01:35:28.100 we do? And so we just started hanging free advising 01:35:28.100 --> 01:35:30.340 sessions who said like, you know, look, you know, 01:35:30.340 --> 01:35:32.359 whatever you're doing right now, wherever you 01:35:32.359 --> 01:35:35.369 are, you know, like. If we can help you, let 01:35:35.369 --> 01:35:37.569 us know. And so we do these 60 -minute whiteboard 01:35:37.569 --> 01:35:40.109 sessions. James, we talk to people everywhere. 01:35:40.329 --> 01:35:43.390 We talk to first responders. We talk to government 01:35:43.390 --> 01:35:47.069 officials, people in nonprofit, people in healthcare, 01:35:47.329 --> 01:35:50.510 people in insurance, finance, teachers, you name 01:35:50.510 --> 01:35:53.789 it, we talk to them. And it was really cool. 01:35:53.989 --> 01:35:55.930 And we were kind of just like plodding along, 01:35:56.090 --> 01:35:58.229 persevering, doing, you know, pivoting as best 01:35:58.229 --> 01:36:02.350 as we could. And then come the fall of 2020, 01:36:02.670 --> 01:36:06.529 when things were still kind of like, oh, we're 01:36:06.529 --> 01:36:09.430 really not going to wave a magic wand and go 01:36:09.430 --> 01:36:14.569 back to normal. We had some really larger organizations 01:36:14.569 --> 01:36:19.750 call on us and say, can you help us? And we really 01:36:19.750 --> 01:36:23.189 started. That's where around a whiteboard, Blaine 01:36:23.189 --> 01:36:25.369 and I started to, after all those conversations 01:36:25.369 --> 01:36:27.149 and working with some of these organizations. 01:36:28.329 --> 01:36:31.270 Some in the healthcare space, some more in the 01:36:31.270 --> 01:36:34.789 local government and special districts space. 01:36:35.090 --> 01:36:38.270 What we started to see was the same common through 01:36:38.270 --> 01:36:43.369 line, which was leaders were holding on. They 01:36:43.369 --> 01:36:47.289 were enduring. They were projecting out false 01:36:47.289 --> 01:36:49.609 finish lines as to when things would, quote, 01:36:49.670 --> 01:36:54.010 go back to normal. And every time they surpassed 01:36:54.010 --> 01:36:55.970 another one of those false finish lines, their 01:36:55.970 --> 01:36:58.489 heart would break just a little bit more. And 01:36:58.489 --> 01:37:01.590 there were more cracks would be exposed in the 01:37:01.590 --> 01:37:05.390 organization's cracks that frankly were not created 01:37:05.390 --> 01:37:08.350 as much by crisis, but were exposed by crisis 01:37:08.350 --> 01:37:11.109 because they were already pre -existing. Right. 01:37:12.029 --> 01:37:14.810 And so we started to think through it and say, 01:37:14.970 --> 01:37:17.289 oh, wait a minute. What's happening here is that 01:37:17.289 --> 01:37:19.189 people are just trying to like embrace the suck 01:37:19.189 --> 01:37:22.789 and endure. And what they need to do is they 01:37:22.789 --> 01:37:26.029 need to actually persevere. They need to accept 01:37:26.029 --> 01:37:31.149 that what they are experiencing is replete with 01:37:31.149 --> 01:37:34.789 uncertainty and make some choices to actually 01:37:34.789 --> 01:37:37.550 grow in a different direction as opposed to holding 01:37:37.550 --> 01:37:41.090 on. They need to move on and grow. And we said, 01:37:41.170 --> 01:37:44.430 where have we seen that in our lives? Oh, you 01:37:44.430 --> 01:37:47.430 know, Bing, Special Forces Assessment and Selection, 01:37:47.710 --> 01:37:51.029 Ranger Assessment and Selection. you know nobody's 01:37:51.029 --> 01:37:52.949 just kind of holding on white knuckling it through 01:37:52.949 --> 01:37:55.890 that you got to actually figure out how to transform 01:37:55.890 --> 01:37:59.409 in the midst of that you know bing you know moments 01:37:59.409 --> 01:38:02.470 in afghanistan moments in the war like there 01:38:02.470 --> 01:38:04.810 was no way that we got through that moments even 01:38:04.810 --> 01:38:06.829 at team red white and blue when we were leading 01:38:06.829 --> 01:38:09.750 this large distributed organization and we were 01:38:09.750 --> 01:38:13.300 trying to focus on the mission There's no way, 01:38:13.380 --> 01:38:15.899 there's no straight line to the top. There's 01:38:15.899 --> 01:38:18.899 no straight line to the summit. You had to take 01:38:18.899 --> 01:38:21.539 the lumps, the ups and the downs. And that's 01:38:21.539 --> 01:38:23.859 where this idea of perseverance being greater 01:38:23.859 --> 01:38:27.420 than endurance emerged. And we started sharing 01:38:27.420 --> 01:38:30.100 that with leaders and helping them kind of navigate 01:38:30.100 --> 01:38:33.579 their organizations through that. And it was 01:38:33.579 --> 01:38:35.720 kind of like light bulbs were going on and people 01:38:35.720 --> 01:38:38.600 were saying like, oh my gosh, like, thank you. 01:38:38.619 --> 01:38:40.899 Thank you for framing this in a way that we could 01:38:40.899 --> 01:38:45.390 understand it. And just simply, I'll share what 01:38:45.390 --> 01:38:49.250 we have perceived as the five factors of perseverance, 01:38:49.449 --> 01:38:51.810 which are change, uncertainty, acceptance, choice, 01:38:51.970 --> 01:38:54.729 and growth. It starts with change. Things come 01:38:54.729 --> 01:38:57.069 at you fast and often and often without warning. 01:38:57.210 --> 01:39:00.449 That brings about uncertainty. Uncertainty piques 01:39:00.449 --> 01:39:03.779 a base human feeling, which is fear. Fear becomes 01:39:03.779 --> 01:39:05.920 the friction that holds us in place and either 01:39:05.920 --> 01:39:08.159 purpose or pain will make us move off that mark. 01:39:08.300 --> 01:39:10.960 We will either run toward our purpose or we will 01:39:10.960 --> 01:39:14.000 run from our pain and capitulate and make these 01:39:14.000 --> 01:39:17.520 small concessions one by one. But we get to acceptance 01:39:17.520 --> 01:39:19.699 where we accept what we can control and what 01:39:19.699 --> 01:39:22.680 we cannot control. We shrink the world down to 01:39:22.680 --> 01:39:25.300 one next good decision we can make at a time 01:39:25.300 --> 01:39:29.229 and we make the choice. And this is really. The 01:39:29.229 --> 01:39:31.649 crucible in the midst of all of the perseverance 01:39:31.649 --> 01:39:36.170 is choice. You must choose to become the creeds, 01:39:36.189 --> 01:39:39.350 the values, the ethos, all the things that you 01:39:39.350 --> 01:39:41.750 say that you are. You get to choose to become 01:39:41.750 --> 01:39:44.609 that in those moments of adversity. And that 01:39:44.609 --> 01:39:47.810 is when growth comes on the other side. That 01:39:47.810 --> 01:39:50.130 is the perseverance payoff. Because not only 01:39:50.130 --> 01:39:53.170 do you achieve, but you become the kind of person 01:39:53.170 --> 01:39:56.510 who knows how to achieve, who knows how to persevere 01:39:56.510 --> 01:39:58.979 through adversity. Because guess what? There's 01:39:58.979 --> 01:40:00.760 going to be more change and uncertainty on the 01:40:00.760 --> 01:40:03.279 horizon. And there's going to be more opportunities 01:40:03.279 --> 01:40:05.359 for you to persevere because guess what? That 01:40:05.359 --> 01:40:08.239 is what life actually is all about. Life is all 01:40:08.239 --> 01:40:10.359 about ups and downs. There are no escalators 01:40:10.359 --> 01:40:14.819 to our goals. I love that. And when I'm thinking 01:40:14.819 --> 01:40:19.720 about the stumbling block, I'm assuming it's 01:40:19.720 --> 01:40:23.220 choice. Choice is really that crossroads where 01:40:23.220 --> 01:40:26.539 you choose to be cowardly or courageous. to do 01:40:26.539 --> 01:40:28.760 the right thing, that moral courage. Because 01:40:28.760 --> 01:40:31.600 up to that point, you know, the events have happened, 01:40:31.699 --> 01:40:34.079 but you do get to make a choice. And like you 01:40:34.079 --> 01:40:36.100 said, if it's out of your control, ultimately, 01:40:36.140 --> 01:40:39.020 then that's going to send it one way. But I think 01:40:39.020 --> 01:40:44.619 there's a complete underestimation of how much 01:40:44.619 --> 01:40:47.359 power someone making a decision actually has 01:40:47.359 --> 01:40:50.039 if they just dive into it. I see so much energy 01:40:50.039 --> 01:40:53.920 put into justifying doing nothing, rather than 01:40:53.920 --> 01:40:57.699 actually saying, How do we fix this? Yeah, that's 01:40:57.699 --> 01:41:00.000 right. I mean, that's that dichotomy of control, 01:41:00.180 --> 01:41:03.359 right? That's that, you know, you have agency 01:41:03.359 --> 01:41:10.960 to how you respond to the world around you. You 01:41:10.960 --> 01:41:14.420 can't control the world around you. You can control 01:41:14.420 --> 01:41:16.800 how you respond to the world around you. That 01:41:16.800 --> 01:41:20.760 is a choice that you can make. And we talk often 01:41:20.760 --> 01:41:25.310 about discipline. as a really key part of this. 01:41:25.449 --> 01:41:28.850 And what we would simply say about discipline 01:41:28.850 --> 01:41:32.609 is that discipline is doing what is good instead 01:41:32.609 --> 01:41:37.949 of doing what feels good often. It is extending 01:41:37.949 --> 01:41:41.069 the time horizon and actually making that hard 01:41:41.069 --> 01:41:44.050 choice, that hard right over the easy wrong. 01:41:44.710 --> 01:41:46.909 Something that I think tacks on to what you're 01:41:46.909 --> 01:41:50.430 saying in terms of moral courage. You know, we 01:41:50.430 --> 01:41:53.329 we we use an example in the book we we illustrated 01:41:53.329 --> 01:41:55.949 in the book by a story that we we talk about 01:41:55.949 --> 01:41:58.029 called 3 a .m. in the patrol base. Right. And 01:41:58.029 --> 01:42:02.609 so Ranger School is the U .S. military's premier 01:42:02.609 --> 01:42:05.710 combat leadership development course. And what 01:42:05.710 --> 01:42:08.529 they do is they they put you through three phases 01:42:08.529 --> 01:42:12.710 that unfold over 61 days. And you are constantly 01:42:12.710 --> 01:42:15.329 cycled through leadership positions, which you 01:42:15.329 --> 01:42:17.670 are graded on where you either get a go or a 01:42:17.670 --> 01:42:19.770 no go. You either accomplish the mission or you 01:42:19.770 --> 01:42:24.409 didn't. And the two major levers that they use 01:42:24.409 --> 01:42:27.670 to replicate the rigors of combat are starvation 01:42:27.670 --> 01:42:32.949 and sleep deprivation. And so exacerbated by 01:42:32.949 --> 01:42:36.239 constant. You're constantly moving. And when 01:42:36.239 --> 01:42:39.500 you're not moving, you are in what is called 01:42:39.500 --> 01:42:41.840 a patrol base. And the patrol base is kind of 01:42:41.840 --> 01:42:45.380 like a security posture. It's also known as kind 01:42:45.380 --> 01:42:50.340 of the iron triangle where you refit and reorient 01:42:50.340 --> 01:42:52.800 towards your next mission. It's where you can 01:42:52.800 --> 01:42:56.640 get some fellas on their necks, as we would say, 01:42:56.699 --> 01:42:59.680 get them a little sleep. Fellas and ladies, get 01:42:59.680 --> 01:43:01.420 them a little sleep, get them some nourishment. 01:43:02.060 --> 01:43:04.760 um and re -plan and the thing about it is is 01:43:04.760 --> 01:43:06.579 that you've already been moving like 18 hours 01:43:06.579 --> 01:43:10.640 a day right um by the time you get to the patrol 01:43:10.640 --> 01:43:13.939 base The games really begin because that's even 01:43:13.939 --> 01:43:16.640 yet another graded position. You got to make 01:43:16.640 --> 01:43:19.659 sure that security is maintained. You have to 01:43:19.659 --> 01:43:21.319 make sure that you work through the priorities 01:43:21.319 --> 01:43:23.500 of work. You have to call up your position to 01:43:23.500 --> 01:43:26.220 command. You have to mission plan for the next 01:43:26.220 --> 01:43:29.399 thing. So really what I'm saying is you're really 01:43:29.399 --> 01:43:31.380 not going to get any sleep is actually the truth. 01:43:32.239 --> 01:43:35.680 And we talk about this. It is a crucible moment 01:43:35.680 --> 01:43:39.659 within that entire arc of adversity. Because 01:43:39.659 --> 01:43:41.720 at 3 a .m. in the patrol base, when you are the 01:43:41.720 --> 01:43:44.920 patrol leader or you are in a leadership position 01:43:44.920 --> 01:43:48.460 in ranger school, the very last thing that you 01:43:48.460 --> 01:43:50.680 want to do is the next thing that you need to 01:43:50.680 --> 01:43:54.539 do. And that is get your ass up. Go check on 01:43:54.539 --> 01:43:58.359 the positions. Make sure security is still maintained. 01:43:58.840 --> 01:44:01.619 Make sure that the machine guns are manned. Make 01:44:01.619 --> 01:44:03.520 sure that people aren't falling asleep on the 01:44:03.520 --> 01:44:06.399 line because they are. They will be falling asleep 01:44:06.399 --> 01:44:08.979 on the line. Make sure that everything is getting 01:44:08.979 --> 01:44:11.380 done. And I am here to tell you that the very 01:44:11.380 --> 01:44:13.600 last thing that you want to do at 3 a .m. in 01:44:13.600 --> 01:44:15.840 the patrol base is get your ass up and do that. 01:44:16.079 --> 01:44:18.680 You want to lay on your ruck and catch some rack. 01:44:19.199 --> 01:44:21.539 Well, you know what? You could do that, leader. 01:44:22.939 --> 01:44:25.680 You're not going to get a go. You're not going 01:44:25.680 --> 01:44:28.699 to accomplish your mission. So what are you going 01:44:28.699 --> 01:44:32.229 to do? You know, it's, it's the choice and drawing 01:44:32.229 --> 01:44:35.250 in on that discipline. Like I want so badly right 01:44:35.250 --> 01:44:37.630 now to go to sleep. And I'm here to tell you, 01:44:37.649 --> 01:44:40.369 James, I am a massive drone. Do you guys use 01:44:40.369 --> 01:44:43.050 the word drone in your community where you're 01:44:43.050 --> 01:44:45.250 falling asleep on your, it's like, it's like 01:44:45.250 --> 01:44:47.550 you're falling asleep, standing up, hallucinating 01:44:47.550 --> 01:44:50.500 all that. No, we're normally falling asleep behind 01:44:50.500 --> 01:44:53.100 the wheel of a moving rescue vehicle. So it's 01:44:53.100 --> 01:44:54.880 got a different name. Like a complete fucking 01:44:54.880 --> 01:44:58.640 liability basically is what we are. So we call 01:44:58.640 --> 01:45:02.560 it droning. And it's a term basically suggesting 01:45:02.560 --> 01:45:04.939 that you're falling asleep on your feet, which 01:45:04.939 --> 01:45:06.899 happens. It literally happens. You know, you 01:45:06.899 --> 01:45:11.100 fall asleep standing up. I've done it many times. 01:45:11.399 --> 01:45:13.680 I've fallen asleep behind the wheel and wrecked 01:45:13.680 --> 01:45:18.340 a car. All of these things, right? And so. exercising 01:45:18.340 --> 01:45:21.579 that discipline is really kind of where it's 01:45:21.579 --> 01:45:24.380 at. And it is choosing to do what is good instead 01:45:24.380 --> 01:45:27.439 of what feels good. Kind of like getting up in 01:45:27.439 --> 01:45:29.479 the morning at 5 a .m. and getting your workout 01:45:29.479 --> 01:45:31.739 in. Doesn't really feel good a lot of times, 01:45:31.779 --> 01:45:35.760 but you know what? It is good. Absolutely. Well, 01:45:35.819 --> 01:45:37.199 I want to hit one more area and then go to some 01:45:37.199 --> 01:45:39.319 closing questions. You touched on working with 01:45:39.319 --> 01:45:41.819 first responders in Colorado. So let's talk about 01:45:41.819 --> 01:45:45.640 that. Yeah, we were hired to do the Colorado 01:45:45.640 --> 01:45:51.300 Fire Leadership Series. Chief TJ Steck of the 01:45:51.300 --> 01:45:55.100 Elizabeth Fire District here in Colorado is a 01:45:55.100 --> 01:45:59.420 small, I think they might have maybe 30 firefighters 01:45:59.420 --> 01:46:03.180 and probably a bit of some volunteer folks as 01:46:03.180 --> 01:46:07.239 well. And Chief Steck, who is just an incredible 01:46:07.239 --> 01:46:11.000 guy, really looked at it and said, how can we... 01:46:11.359 --> 01:46:15.300 invest in fire leaders across the state of Colorado 01:46:15.300 --> 01:46:19.199 who can't afford leadership development. And 01:46:19.199 --> 01:46:21.560 so he was able to secure a Google grant, which 01:46:21.560 --> 01:46:24.680 was really incredible. And what we did is we 01:46:24.680 --> 01:46:27.699 did a series where we hosted 90 -minute leadership 01:46:27.699 --> 01:46:32.060 development sessions with follow -on Q &A and 01:46:32.060 --> 01:46:35.420 really engaging. with fire leaders across the 01:46:35.420 --> 01:46:37.899 state. And it was amazing, James. We had fire 01:46:37.899 --> 01:46:41.720 leaders from, I think we had 200 some odd districts 01:46:41.720 --> 01:46:46.000 represented. Some of them only had one employee. 01:46:46.300 --> 01:46:50.000 Many of them were volunteer firefighters, just 01:46:50.000 --> 01:46:53.479 across the whole spectrum. And it ended up expanding 01:46:53.479 --> 01:46:55.100 throughout the Rocky Mountain region. We had 01:46:55.100 --> 01:46:58.840 people calling in from Wyoming, Montana. We had 01:46:58.840 --> 01:47:01.939 people calling in from California. It was awesome. 01:47:02.039 --> 01:47:05.890 And what we did is we What we do as an organization 01:47:05.890 --> 01:47:10.149 is we come alongside organizations and find out 01:47:10.149 --> 01:47:14.489 what are you guys facing right now? What can 01:47:14.489 --> 01:47:17.270 we help you navigate through? Because in the 01:47:17.270 --> 01:47:20.409 end of the day, it's not for me to tell any organization 01:47:20.409 --> 01:47:22.510 what they need. It's for you to tell us what 01:47:22.510 --> 01:47:25.710 you need. And then for us to be able to come 01:47:25.710 --> 01:47:29.000 alongside you and share some of those. lessons. 01:47:29.239 --> 01:47:31.760 And the way that we often do our leadership development 01:47:31.760 --> 01:47:35.760 is that we present modules and modules are topical. 01:47:35.819 --> 01:47:39.500 Some of them are a little bit more nuanced, like 01:47:39.500 --> 01:47:41.380 leading through uncertainty, where we talk a 01:47:41.380 --> 01:47:43.380 lot about this perseverance is greater than endurance. 01:47:43.840 --> 01:47:47.899 Some of them are far more practical, like empowerment 01:47:47.899 --> 01:47:50.779 and accountability and difficult conversations. 01:47:50.779 --> 01:47:54.319 Like how do you actually know shit, have a difficult 01:47:54.319 --> 01:47:58.439 conversation that leads to alignment. right that 01:47:58.439 --> 01:48:02.260 leads to mission effectiveness and so those were 01:48:02.260 --> 01:48:05.279 some of the modules that we did with the colorado 01:48:05.279 --> 01:48:09.359 fire leadership series and man it was it was 01:48:09.359 --> 01:48:13.399 a real honor for us to invest in the first responder 01:48:13.399 --> 01:48:16.399 community in that way and we're just so thankful 01:48:16.399 --> 01:48:18.619 to chief stack for giving us that opportunity 01:48:18.619 --> 01:48:22.159 and you know hope to do it further on into the 01:48:22.159 --> 01:48:28.020 future what attributes are you seeing in these 01:48:28.020 --> 01:48:30.640 leaders that are seeking change, that are truly 01:48:30.640 --> 01:48:34.439 trying to do the best for their organization? 01:48:36.739 --> 01:48:43.920 I would say the willingness to imagine a different 01:48:43.920 --> 01:48:51.020 approach. And I would say then making the choice 01:48:51.020 --> 01:48:55.880 to act upon that. I really give... TJ, a lot 01:48:55.880 --> 01:48:59.539 of credit. He's become a friend. I give him a 01:48:59.539 --> 01:49:04.760 lot of credit because he is a chief in a community 01:49:04.760 --> 01:49:08.020 where it seems, based on what you're saying, 01:49:08.159 --> 01:49:12.420 James, is that there's maybe some stuck thinking. 01:49:12.600 --> 01:49:16.060 We're a little bit stuck in some paradigms that 01:49:16.060 --> 01:49:21.159 may or may not be working. And I think some of 01:49:21.159 --> 01:49:24.460 the characteristics are the willingness to imagine 01:49:24.460 --> 01:49:28.220 a vision of a better future, the willingness 01:49:28.220 --> 01:49:31.819 to ask for help, the willingness to look into 01:49:31.819 --> 01:49:36.039 other sectors or communities that have actually 01:49:36.039 --> 01:49:40.000 gone through some of this. When we were first 01:49:40.000 --> 01:49:42.319 engaging with fire leaders, and it wasn't just 01:49:42.319 --> 01:49:45.720 TJ, I mean, he brought in other chiefs and really 01:49:45.720 --> 01:49:48.300 had the calls with us and we sat down and really 01:49:48.300 --> 01:49:51.810 talked to them. And the truth is, is that there 01:49:51.810 --> 01:49:53.569 was a lot of commonality there. You know, one 01:49:53.569 --> 01:49:55.329 of the things that we one of the modules we did 01:49:55.329 --> 01:49:57.029 is our module on wellness and sustainability. 01:49:57.590 --> 01:49:59.510 And we talked about, you know, health, people 01:49:59.510 --> 01:50:02.390 and purpose. We talked about identity asymmetry. 01:50:02.449 --> 01:50:05.989 We talked about, you know, the the seduction 01:50:05.989 --> 01:50:08.789 of busyness and the balance fallacy and all of 01:50:08.789 --> 01:50:13.050 these barriers and talked about like, look, you 01:50:13.050 --> 01:50:15.409 know, if we want if we want to be resilient, 01:50:15.529 --> 01:50:18.029 we want to truly be effective on the job. We've 01:50:18.029 --> 01:50:21.039 got to do it for the long haul. We need to be 01:50:21.039 --> 01:50:25.539 well. We need to talk about, you know, emotional 01:50:25.539 --> 01:50:28.319 health. We need to talk about physical health. 01:50:28.699 --> 01:50:31.699 We need to invest in our teammates and give them 01:50:31.699 --> 01:50:34.399 the opportunity to be well. We need to commit 01:50:34.399 --> 01:50:38.680 to that together. And what we were able to do 01:50:38.680 --> 01:50:41.199 is bring the lessons learned that we had gotten 01:50:41.199 --> 01:50:44.340 from working with hundreds of thousands of veterans, 01:50:44.539 --> 01:50:47.829 literally. across the United States and say like, 01:50:47.869 --> 01:50:50.029 no, we get it. Like it's, this is something we've 01:50:50.029 --> 01:50:53.210 seen. Like you're, you're dealing with, you know, 01:50:53.210 --> 01:50:56.710 trauma population, high intensity environment. 01:50:57.489 --> 01:51:00.470 I'm here to tell you this will make you more 01:51:00.470 --> 01:51:03.420 effective. you know, on the next fire, on the 01:51:03.420 --> 01:51:05.699 next call, and it's going to make you more effective 01:51:05.699 --> 01:51:08.239 for the long haul. And so the willingness for 01:51:08.239 --> 01:51:10.899 those leaders to listen to another perspective 01:51:10.899 --> 01:51:14.119 from outside the fire service, I think that that 01:51:14.119 --> 01:51:17.479 was a real, you know, force multiplier. And, 01:51:17.579 --> 01:51:21.260 you know, I guess I will use the word that you 01:51:21.260 --> 01:51:23.439 used before, the courage to actually take a step 01:51:23.439 --> 01:51:26.760 and actually do something about it. I think those 01:51:26.760 --> 01:51:29.159 were some of the key characteristics. And then 01:51:29.159 --> 01:51:31.819 monitor, what did you get from it? you know, 01:51:31.819 --> 01:51:34.119 what's the feedback loop. And, you know, TJ and 01:51:34.119 --> 01:51:37.279 I actually just sat down for lunch a couple of 01:51:37.279 --> 01:51:39.739 weeks ago. And he's like, dude, the feedback 01:51:39.739 --> 01:51:42.420 is incredible. It's like, we, we, we get, this 01:51:42.420 --> 01:51:46.520 is the most requested, most watched, most engaged 01:51:46.520 --> 01:51:49.359 topics that you guys did because, you know, like 01:51:49.359 --> 01:51:51.819 our, our responders and our firefighters are 01:51:51.819 --> 01:51:54.060 really resonating with what you have to say. 01:51:54.439 --> 01:51:57.750 And we're giving people tools. to actually take 01:51:57.750 --> 01:52:00.010 a step with it. And that's, that's key to our 01:52:00.010 --> 01:52:01.649 business. You know, it's key to the way that 01:52:01.649 --> 01:52:04.010 we go about it. Like, um, the reason we're called 01:52:04.010 --> 01:52:05.890 applied leadership partners is because we actually 01:52:05.890 --> 01:52:08.970 want people to apply it in their real life. I 01:52:08.970 --> 01:52:10.689 mean, I could sit here and tell you a story about 01:52:10.689 --> 01:52:13.609 being a Ranger in Afghanistan, 2003. I'm not 01:52:13.609 --> 01:52:15.930 telling you that story so that you can be a Ranger 01:52:15.930 --> 01:52:18.729 in Afghanistan in 2003. Obviously we're not going 01:52:18.729 --> 01:52:22.239 back to that. What I do is I is and what Blaine 01:52:22.239 --> 01:52:24.560 and I do is we we tell those stories to open 01:52:24.560 --> 01:52:28.079 up new windows into old truths. And an old truth 01:52:28.079 --> 01:52:31.800 here is that if you rocket until the wheels fall 01:52:31.800 --> 01:52:34.239 off, guess what? The wheels will eventually fall 01:52:34.239 --> 01:52:36.500 off and you will no longer be able to rocket. 01:52:36.979 --> 01:52:39.520 You know, you will effectively work yourself 01:52:39.520 --> 01:52:41.979 out of the game by pummeling yourself into the 01:52:41.979 --> 01:52:45.529 ground. But if you approach it, you know, like 01:52:45.529 --> 01:52:48.149 any of these elite athletes, like a ranger or 01:52:48.149 --> 01:52:50.670 a green beret or a seal or any of these others 01:52:50.670 --> 01:52:53.369 that we've talked about here, and you recognize 01:52:53.369 --> 01:52:56.130 the fact that like you have to build in resilience 01:52:56.130 --> 01:52:59.569 for the long haul, you have to be more anti -fragile. 01:52:59.569 --> 01:53:01.250 And the way that you do that is increase your 01:53:01.250 --> 01:53:03.789 physical readiness, increase your mental and 01:53:03.789 --> 01:53:05.489 emotional readiness, increase your spiritual 01:53:05.489 --> 01:53:08.510 readiness, have trusted relationships that you 01:53:08.510 --> 01:53:11.090 can really count on, have a sense of purpose 01:53:11.090 --> 01:53:14.119 that will be. you know, that transcendent mission 01:53:14.119 --> 01:53:17.640 that you can call on as you're in the midst of 01:53:17.640 --> 01:53:22.539 the moments of hardship, you can start to really 01:53:22.539 --> 01:53:25.340 stitch together effectiveness for the long haul. 01:53:25.560 --> 01:53:28.359 And I would just say it was it was the willingness 01:53:28.359 --> 01:53:32.520 to actually try that that has yielded great results 01:53:32.520 --> 01:53:36.340 in the Colorado Fire Leadership Series and one 01:53:36.340 --> 01:53:39.000 that, you know, again, it was an honor for us 01:53:39.000 --> 01:53:41.260 and a real blessing. And we would do a thousand 01:53:41.260 --> 01:53:44.449 times over. Brilliant. That sounds incredible. 01:53:44.649 --> 01:53:46.489 And there's so much I think people can pull from 01:53:46.489 --> 01:53:49.069 just that one, you know, overview of what you 01:53:49.069 --> 01:53:52.069 did with that group. Shifting to the closing 01:53:52.069 --> 01:53:54.729 question so I can be mindful of your time. The 01:53:54.729 --> 01:53:57.409 first one I love to ask, is there a book or are 01:53:57.409 --> 01:53:59.970 there books that you love to recommend? It can 01:53:59.970 --> 01:54:02.189 be related to our discussion today or completely 01:54:02.189 --> 01:54:06.310 unrelated. The first two books that I always 01:54:06.310 --> 01:54:11.569 recommend is Romans and James. The second one's 01:54:11.569 --> 01:54:17.270 got a great title. Yeah, those have been really 01:54:17.270 --> 01:54:20.930 instrumental in my growth and in my perspective 01:54:20.930 --> 01:54:24.189 as a leader. Another book that I would tell you 01:54:24.189 --> 01:54:30.430 is just like it is fire is Team of Teams by General 01:54:30.430 --> 01:54:36.279 Stanley McChrystal. really, really thoughtful 01:54:36.279 --> 01:54:41.079 way to understand how to kind of knit together 01:54:41.079 --> 01:54:44.800 these teams in these asymmetrical environments. 01:54:45.039 --> 01:54:47.000 I think he does a really good job at unpacking 01:54:47.000 --> 01:54:49.840 the difference between complication and complexity, 01:54:50.079 --> 01:54:54.800 and then really showing how you can create some 01:54:54.800 --> 01:55:00.279 more effective teams. Brilliant. What about films 01:55:00.279 --> 01:55:06.770 and documentaries? Well, I mean, I would be hard 01:55:06.770 --> 01:55:09.350 pressed not to say that you can't find a better 01:55:09.350 --> 01:55:13.010 film than Rocky IV. I mean, that's clearly the 01:55:13.010 --> 01:55:21.250 greatest film ever created. But, let's see, documentaries, 01:55:21.609 --> 01:55:26.689 that's... What is the one that, I mean, if you 01:55:26.689 --> 01:55:28.550 want to watch a documentary that'll just make 01:55:28.550 --> 01:55:32.789 your hands sweat, what is it, The Dawn Wall? 01:55:33.479 --> 01:55:37.279 Oh, yes. Is that what it's called? You're probably 01:55:37.279 --> 01:55:40.380 thinking of Free Solo. Free Solo. Yeah. Watch 01:55:40.380 --> 01:55:42.920 Free Solo if you really want to watch a documentary 01:55:42.920 --> 01:55:46.479 that'll make your hands sweat. Another one that 01:55:46.479 --> 01:55:51.239 I found just so fascinating was The Last Dance, 01:55:51.359 --> 01:55:56.500 the documentary that covers the Jordan -era bulls. 01:55:56.640 --> 01:56:00.300 That was fascinating because you... You really 01:56:00.300 --> 01:56:04.279 got to see a little bit of an inside. And for 01:56:04.279 --> 01:56:07.619 a figure that is just so like, I mean, talk about 01:56:07.619 --> 01:56:10.239 a relentless competitor and achiever, you know, 01:56:10.239 --> 01:56:14.020 and Michael Jordan. You really get the sense 01:56:14.020 --> 01:56:16.779 that you understand that he had to do some changing. 01:56:16.880 --> 01:56:19.300 He had to do some persevering. He had to do some 01:56:19.300 --> 01:56:22.979 growing to really become the person, the leader 01:56:22.979 --> 01:56:26.850 that that team needed. You know, he didn't do 01:56:26.850 --> 01:56:29.109 it alone either. That was the other massive thing. 01:56:29.189 --> 01:56:31.630 You know, you look at the cast around, you know, 01:56:31.630 --> 01:56:34.989 Scotty Pippen, for God's sakes, amazing, you 01:56:34.989 --> 01:56:38.930 know, or Horace Grant, like all this team, Phil 01:56:38.930 --> 01:56:41.890 Jackson, this group around. I mean, it really 01:56:41.890 --> 01:56:45.689 lets you know that, and Blaine and I say this 01:56:45.689 --> 01:56:49.970 all the time, perseverance is an endeavor best 01:56:49.970 --> 01:56:53.649 not to be done alone. Perseverance is best done 01:56:53.649 --> 01:56:57.300 together. Absolutely. All right. Well, then the 01:56:57.300 --> 01:56:59.720 next question, is there a person that you recommend 01:56:59.720 --> 01:57:03.000 to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to 01:57:03.000 --> 01:57:05.199 the first responders, military and associated 01:57:05.199 --> 01:57:08.920 professions of the world? Blaine Smith. He's 01:57:08.920 --> 01:57:12.380 already scheduled. Is there anyone else? Vince 01:57:12.380 --> 01:57:15.939 Vargas. Oh, he's coming on too. So yeah, you 01:57:15.939 --> 01:57:18.720 made that connection. Two amazing people. Vince 01:57:18.720 --> 01:57:22.399 Vargas has a really unique perspective. So this 01:57:22.399 --> 01:57:27.939 is a man who was a ranger. This is a man who 01:57:27.939 --> 01:57:32.279 was a border patrol officer. He also served on 01:57:32.279 --> 01:57:35.399 BORTAC, which is their special operations responder 01:57:35.399 --> 01:57:40.180 organization. I think that your audience, any 01:57:40.180 --> 01:57:43.399 responder military. I think people really enjoy 01:57:43.399 --> 01:57:45.359 listening to Vince speak because he's just got 01:57:45.359 --> 01:57:48.220 so many fascinating perspectives out there. And 01:57:48.220 --> 01:57:51.260 he's also talking, he's kind of cutting the shit 01:57:51.260 --> 01:57:54.619 on a topic that people, it's kind of floating 01:57:54.619 --> 01:57:58.199 around in the ether, like immigration and the 01:57:58.199 --> 01:58:00.060 border and all this kind of stuff. And what I 01:58:00.060 --> 01:58:02.359 really love about Vince is that he's actually, 01:58:02.500 --> 01:58:05.220 he's got an informed perspective and he can tell 01:58:05.220 --> 01:58:07.340 you kind of some ground reality on that stuff 01:58:07.340 --> 01:58:10.800 while also sharing in the experience of being. 01:58:11.399 --> 01:58:14.159 you know, right there on the line. And this is 01:58:14.159 --> 01:58:16.420 exactly what this podcast is about. Like I've 01:58:16.420 --> 01:58:20.359 had, you know, Iraqi commandos on, I've had Afghan, 01:58:20.439 --> 01:58:24.260 you know, members of the former Mushahideen turned, 01:58:24.399 --> 01:58:27.079 you know, Afghan allies and just all kinds of 01:58:27.079 --> 01:58:29.119 people, you know, doctors that have been to Gaza. 01:58:29.239 --> 01:58:31.279 I mean, people that are actually boots on the 01:58:31.279 --> 01:58:33.619 ground because CNN and Fox are going to feed 01:58:33.619 --> 01:58:37.359 you their skewed version, you know? So I love 01:58:37.359 --> 01:58:39.180 it when you actually speak to someone, okay, 01:58:39.239 --> 01:58:42.619 you were at the border. You were seeing the families 01:58:42.619 --> 01:58:44.479 that are just fleeing and looking for a better 01:58:44.479 --> 01:58:46.319 life. And you're seeing the shitbags are trying 01:58:46.319 --> 01:58:49.539 to get over our border and the nuances. So I 01:58:49.539 --> 01:58:52.039 can't wait to speak to him because the more layers 01:58:52.039 --> 01:58:55.640 we have just on this podcast alone, the more 01:58:55.640 --> 01:58:57.939 I think people understand what's actually happening, 01:58:58.000 --> 01:58:59.699 whether it's through a firefighter's eyes or 01:58:59.699 --> 01:59:03.039 border patrol. Yeah. Yeah, he'd be a great guest. 01:59:03.119 --> 01:59:04.279 The other one, you know, something that just 01:59:04.279 --> 01:59:06.199 popped into my mind and I haven't spoken to them. 01:59:06.260 --> 01:59:07.920 You're actually just reminding me that I need 01:59:07.920 --> 01:59:10.800 to reach out. Have you ever heard of an organization 01:59:10.800 --> 01:59:17.000 over in the UK called UOK Doc? I have not. Very 01:59:17.000 --> 01:59:20.520 interesting. They're called UOK Doc as in, hey, 01:59:20.539 --> 01:59:26.220 you OK, Doc? And they actually asked me to come 01:59:26.220 --> 01:59:30.479 and speak during COVID. time frame. Obviously, 01:59:30.939 --> 01:59:35.859 what responders and medics were experiencing 01:59:35.859 --> 01:59:39.380 in COVID, I mean, again, my wife was on the front 01:59:39.380 --> 01:59:41.460 lines of that. God bless her. She did two mission 01:59:41.460 --> 01:59:45.720 trips in addition to that. She's freaking amazing 01:59:45.720 --> 01:59:50.319 to go offer relief to a sister hospital in Tampa. 01:59:50.420 --> 01:59:52.079 She also did another mission trip down to the 01:59:52.079 --> 01:59:55.319 Dominican Republic in the midst of all of that. 01:59:55.979 --> 01:59:57.760 They asked me to come speak. They were really 01:59:57.760 --> 02:00:00.720 focusing on, you know, medic wellness, health 02:00:00.720 --> 02:00:02.979 and wellness and really, you know, like, are 02:00:02.979 --> 02:00:08.479 you OK? Because many of us were not. Many of 02:00:08.479 --> 02:00:10.560 them were not. So that's another one to check 02:00:10.560 --> 02:00:13.279 out. That reminds me I got to reach out to them 02:00:13.279 --> 02:00:15.680 and say hello. Yeah, no, that's an interesting 02:00:15.680 --> 02:00:17.800 one. I'd love to talk to them because I had a 02:00:17.800 --> 02:00:20.430 conversation with. I forget who it was now, but 02:00:20.430 --> 02:00:22.550 it was someone in the UK. And we were talking 02:00:22.550 --> 02:00:25.069 about, I think it was during the pandemic. I 02:00:25.069 --> 02:00:27.930 added another episode every week to put good 02:00:27.930 --> 02:00:29.829 information out there, actionable information. 02:00:30.090 --> 02:00:32.670 What are people seeing? Yes, this is a real virus. 02:00:32.810 --> 02:00:35.689 Yes, there are some hotspots. No, these giant 02:00:35.689 --> 02:00:37.810 morgues that were made here were never even touched 02:00:37.810 --> 02:00:40.229 or used. Just getting the whole landscape of 02:00:40.229 --> 02:00:43.310 what was going on. But one of them said, one 02:00:43.310 --> 02:00:47.010 of the most disappointing things was... In the 02:00:47.010 --> 02:00:49.069 UK, everyone would come out at five o 'clock 02:00:49.069 --> 02:00:52.109 and they'd clap. And he said, that's all well 02:00:52.109 --> 02:00:54.729 and good, but it didn't give us any more staffing, 02:00:54.890 --> 02:00:56.630 didn't give us any more beds, didn't give us 02:00:56.630 --> 02:00:58.970 any more PPE, but it put all the responsibility 02:00:58.970 --> 02:01:02.649 on the responder. And then you talk about moral 02:01:02.649 --> 02:01:04.970 injury, all the men and women on the front line. 02:01:05.630 --> 02:01:07.869 Fast forward a year, if you didn't take a vaccine, 02:01:07.970 --> 02:01:10.590 you were a murderer. So you talk about moral 02:01:10.590 --> 02:01:12.949 injury for those responders and organizational 02:01:12.949 --> 02:01:15.689 betrayal. you know, a vaccine that ultimately 02:01:15.689 --> 02:01:18.430 we all know now had a kind of flip of a coin 02:01:18.430 --> 02:01:21.310 efficacy anyway. So certainly not justifiable 02:01:21.310 --> 02:01:23.850 to terminate a loyal, you know, member of your 02:01:23.850 --> 02:01:26.750 community. So what they went through, not only 02:01:26.750 --> 02:01:30.229 what they saw, but the change in landscape and 02:01:30.229 --> 02:01:32.210 the fricking rug being pulled from under some 02:01:32.210 --> 02:01:35.090 of them. I mean, we need to, we need to really 02:01:35.090 --> 02:01:37.449 honor that generation of responders and medical 02:01:37.449 --> 02:01:39.510 personnel and all the other people that supported 02:01:39.510 --> 02:01:43.420 us. 100%. I mean, a hundred percent, you know, 02:01:43.460 --> 02:01:47.899 like I, I, I saw it from the sidelines as the 02:01:47.899 --> 02:01:53.760 husband of a, of a ED nurse. And, you know, it's 02:01:53.760 --> 02:01:55.920 like, it's all well and good, you know, thanks 02:01:55.920 --> 02:01:58.539 for clapping at me, but I just, you know, had 02:01:58.539 --> 02:02:02.079 to, had to see, you know, three people die today. 02:02:02.199 --> 02:02:05.039 And, you know, the, the, the, you know, I should 02:02:05.039 --> 02:02:06.479 have this, I should have that. And it's just 02:02:06.479 --> 02:02:10.789 like, you know, I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. 02:02:10.869 --> 02:02:13.329 I'm not sure. You know, talk about like massive 02:02:13.329 --> 02:02:18.130 uncertainty. And, you know, just because you 02:02:18.130 --> 02:02:20.050 mentioned it, I know we're closing up our time 02:02:20.050 --> 02:02:23.750 here, but I will tell you. One of the one of 02:02:23.750 --> 02:02:28.069 the very one of the things that most veterans 02:02:28.069 --> 02:02:32.810 usually aren't super stoked about. And I can 02:02:32.810 --> 02:02:35.430 tell you, like, I'm one of these folks is like, 02:02:35.510 --> 02:02:38.090 please don't ask me to stand up and then clap 02:02:38.090 --> 02:02:44.109 at me. Um, that's, that's, I'm not really, I'm 02:02:44.109 --> 02:02:45.989 not really interested in that. I, I would, I 02:02:45.989 --> 02:02:49.369 would much rather, um, you just reach out your 02:02:49.369 --> 02:02:53.210 hand and, you know, say, Hey, my name is, um, 02:02:53.250 --> 02:02:55.350 it's nice to meet you. And, and just talk to 02:02:55.350 --> 02:02:59.489 me. Um, because I think in many ways, and you 02:02:59.489 --> 02:03:00.869 know, this might be a little bit of a controversial 02:03:00.869 --> 02:03:03.890 statement, but, um, the clapping is not for me. 02:03:04.510 --> 02:03:08.789 It's for you. Cause I don't want it. Um, and 02:03:08.789 --> 02:03:10.789 I, I think about those responders that are walking 02:03:10.789 --> 02:03:13.350 out of the hospital after getting their ass handed 02:03:13.350 --> 02:03:16.689 to them, you know, for a 14 hour shift, if they 02:03:16.689 --> 02:03:19.750 were lucky, um, or the ability to go home that 02:03:19.750 --> 02:03:23.909 night, if they were lucky that night, um, getting 02:03:23.909 --> 02:03:28.050 clapped at, it's kind of like, I, I, I don't, 02:03:28.069 --> 02:03:34.569 who is this for? Yep. Exactly. And I think, you 02:03:34.569 --> 02:03:36.329 know, this is the thing is then you. you fast 02:03:36.329 --> 02:03:38.289 forward. And what I've always said is this, okay, 02:03:38.350 --> 02:03:41.670 to appreciate the service that these men and 02:03:41.670 --> 02:03:44.109 women went through, to appreciate all the firefighters 02:03:44.109 --> 02:03:46.989 in California and the ones from neighboring states 02:03:46.989 --> 02:03:50.390 and even countries that came to help, the way 02:03:50.390 --> 02:03:53.329 that you pay that forward is you support them 02:03:53.329 --> 02:03:56.689 when they need the staffing, the financing, the 02:03:56.689 --> 02:03:58.890 change in work weeks. That's how you truly thank 02:03:58.890 --> 02:04:00.979 them for their service. is create an environment. 02:04:01.279 --> 02:04:03.920 But what happens is, is this virtual signaling 02:04:03.920 --> 02:04:05.979 at the time, and it's coming from a good place. 02:04:06.000 --> 02:04:08.100 And most people don't get me wrong, but it's 02:04:08.100 --> 02:04:10.840 so quickly forgotten. And then the FDNY is a 02:04:10.840 --> 02:04:13.699 perfect example. You know, post 9 -11, they're 02:04:13.699 --> 02:04:16.760 heroes. It's a few short years later that they're 02:04:16.760 --> 02:04:19.979 begging for the, you know, $50 ,000 for their 02:04:19.979 --> 02:04:23.140 terminally ill cancer, you know, responders. 02:04:24.340 --> 02:04:26.260 And then, you know, the city is turning their 02:04:26.260 --> 02:04:27.800 back on them. You know, and this is what we've 02:04:27.800 --> 02:04:29.699 got to do if we really want to thank people for 02:04:29.699 --> 02:04:32.079 their service, like the Hunter 7 Foundation, 02:04:32.340 --> 02:04:34.000 you know, people that are taking care of our 02:04:34.000 --> 02:04:36.680 veterans and first responders. That's how you 02:04:36.680 --> 02:04:39.140 thank them by being part of the movement to create 02:04:39.140 --> 02:04:42.239 an environment that allows them and their families 02:04:42.239 --> 02:04:45.789 to thrive. Yeah, I mean, show up, right? Like, 02:04:45.829 --> 02:04:47.369 I mean, it starts with showing up, you know, 02:04:47.390 --> 02:04:49.989 presence implies interest. Like step one is show 02:04:49.989 --> 02:04:52.770 up. And, you know, I think another book that's 02:04:52.770 --> 02:04:55.430 a really great read is Tribe by Sebastian Younger. 02:04:55.449 --> 02:04:59.350 And he does a really good job of talking about 02:04:59.350 --> 02:05:04.210 the, you know, the cost, helping to bear the 02:05:04.210 --> 02:05:08.289 burden of the cost of war. And, and that's really, 02:05:08.329 --> 02:05:10.630 you know, when you talk about moral injury, right? 02:05:10.710 --> 02:05:13.270 Like one of the, one of the ways that moral injury 02:05:13.270 --> 02:05:15.409 really exacerbates is when it, when it's in the 02:05:15.409 --> 02:05:16.890 dark, when you just feel like there's nobody, 02:05:16.970 --> 02:05:19.670 nobody else can, you know, help me hold this 02:05:19.670 --> 02:05:23.430 and, you know, just, just showing up and being 02:05:23.430 --> 02:05:25.270 there and being supportive and being willing 02:05:25.270 --> 02:05:27.090 to listen. You don't have to have the answers, 02:05:27.229 --> 02:05:30.449 you know, like just be willing to like walk, 02:05:30.529 --> 02:05:33.109 walk that difficult mile with me or have a cup 02:05:33.109 --> 02:05:35.800 of coffee, you know, and just listen. you know 02:05:35.800 --> 02:05:38.899 listen to the stories because the truth is that 02:05:38.899 --> 02:05:41.500 otherwise you know like you have a very small 02:05:41.500 --> 02:05:44.140 percentage of the population that is holding 02:05:44.140 --> 02:05:48.779 the weight of this consequential trauma that 02:05:48.779 --> 02:05:52.939 compounds, whether it's the traumatic circumstances 02:05:52.939 --> 02:05:55.739 in and out of calls that are experienced by responders, 02:05:56.020 --> 02:05:57.960 whether it's the traumatic circumstances of those 02:05:57.960 --> 02:06:01.199 who deploy forward on behalf of American democracy 02:06:01.199 --> 02:06:05.899 and policy into warfare, whatever. Law enforcement 02:06:05.899 --> 02:06:09.039 officers that are showing up or standing in line 02:06:09.039 --> 02:06:11.039 trying to keep people safe while getting spit 02:06:11.039 --> 02:06:15.000 at, screamed at, and yelled at, like, sit with. 02:06:16.679 --> 02:06:19.960 You know, and help us hold some of that, because, 02:06:19.979 --> 02:06:22.960 you know, the truth is, is that all of these 02:06:22.960 --> 02:06:25.920 people, they raise their hands to serve, to say, 02:06:25.960 --> 02:06:29.539 like, I will I will protect you. I will serve 02:06:29.539 --> 02:06:33.359 you. Right. And I do I do agree with you. I believe 02:06:33.359 --> 02:06:36.560 that the clapping is coming from a good place. 02:06:37.359 --> 02:06:39.979 And I believe that far more often people just 02:06:39.979 --> 02:06:42.100 don't know what to do. They don't know how to 02:06:42.100 --> 02:06:43.939 approach it. They don't know how to say, and 02:06:43.939 --> 02:06:46.539 I would just encourage you, like maybe start 02:06:46.539 --> 02:06:49.520 with, hi, my name is reach your handout and just 02:06:49.520 --> 02:06:52.159 say like, you know, just want you to know that 02:06:52.159 --> 02:06:54.340 what you do goes on. It doesn't go unnoticed. 02:06:54.399 --> 02:06:58.300 You know, I, I appreciate it. You know, and maybe 02:06:58.300 --> 02:07:00.279 get to know somebody, you know, don't just kind 02:07:00.279 --> 02:07:02.939 of treat it like a, like this, you know, far 02:07:02.939 --> 02:07:07.949 off abstract concept, you know, like. first responders, 02:07:08.130 --> 02:07:10.989 you know, first responders, military veterans, 02:07:11.229 --> 02:07:14.449 law enforcement, you know, medics, like we're 02:07:14.449 --> 02:07:16.210 not heroes. We're just human beings. We're just 02:07:16.210 --> 02:07:20.189 people just like you maybe start by like, you 02:07:20.189 --> 02:07:22.050 know, treating us like that and just engage with 02:07:22.050 --> 02:07:24.850 us in, in, in a, in a thoughtful and intentional 02:07:24.850 --> 02:07:30.380 manner. Absolutely. Well, before we go to where 02:07:30.380 --> 02:07:32.899 people can find the book, your leadership organization, 02:07:33.119 --> 02:07:36.779 and you guys in general online, what do you do 02:07:36.779 --> 02:07:42.039 to decompress? I spend time in God's great cathedral, 02:07:42.180 --> 02:07:46.399 which is the mountains. A couple of things that 02:07:46.399 --> 02:07:49.500 I do to decompress is every morning I get up, 02:07:49.500 --> 02:07:52.939 I start my day with, I call it the grounding 02:07:52.939 --> 02:07:56.050 before the grinding. So I spend about 30 minutes 02:07:56.050 --> 02:07:59.609 in prayer, contemplation. I spend time in God's 02:07:59.609 --> 02:08:02.869 word. I usually start with a practice of gratitude. 02:08:03.090 --> 02:08:05.250 I'm usually naming at least three things that 02:08:05.250 --> 02:08:09.329 I'm grateful for. Part of my decompress and what 02:08:09.329 --> 02:08:14.670 I do is I simply must get six workouts in a week. 02:08:14.829 --> 02:08:18.970 I rest on Sunday. That's another part of my self 02:08:18.970 --> 02:08:25.700 -care regimen is I take Sabbath seriously. Uh, 02:08:25.700 --> 02:08:28.119 what else do I do? I spend time out in nature 02:08:28.119 --> 02:08:31.079 as much as possible. Um, I try to at least get 02:08:31.079 --> 02:08:33.380 out there once a week, um, which is, which is 02:08:33.380 --> 02:08:38.020 really good for me. Um, and, uh, I also, I go 02:08:38.020 --> 02:08:40.560 to therapy, you know, I go to therapy every other 02:08:40.560 --> 02:08:45.159 week. Um, my therapist is a trauma informed EMDR 02:08:45.159 --> 02:08:48.420 trained therapist. I've done a lot of EMDR, uh, 02:08:48.500 --> 02:08:50.600 with Emily. I'm going to say her name, big shout 02:08:50.600 --> 02:08:53.180 out. Uh, she's a fricking badass and she's totally 02:08:53.180 --> 02:08:56.180 one of my. teammates that has, uh, you know, 02:08:56.180 --> 02:08:58.680 supported me through my ups and downs in life. 02:08:59.039 --> 02:09:02.180 Uh, and, you know, talk about it and then also 02:09:02.180 --> 02:09:07.140 make time for, um, you know, for, for relationships, 02:09:07.340 --> 02:09:10.859 you know, I date my wife, try to spend time with 02:09:10.859 --> 02:09:15.100 my friends. Um, and just, uh, yeah, those are 02:09:15.100 --> 02:09:18.279 some of my key practice. Oh, and fricking go 02:09:18.279 --> 02:09:20.680 to sleep for God's sakes, go to sleep on time. 02:09:21.239 --> 02:09:24.079 You know, that's the other thing. I try to put 02:09:24.079 --> 02:09:27.880 my any electronics down 60 minutes before bedtime. 02:09:29.560 --> 02:09:33.199 I try not to get into any caffeine after like, 02:09:33.300 --> 02:09:35.060 you know, maybe like one o 'clock in the afternoon. 02:09:35.939 --> 02:09:40.699 Sleep has been a massive, you know, like reorienting 02:09:40.699 --> 02:09:44.439 thing for me over the years because I mean, my 02:09:44.439 --> 02:09:47.600 sleep was shot working in special operations. 02:09:47.760 --> 02:09:49.840 You work the you know, we say we own the night. 02:09:50.479 --> 02:09:52.340 So, you know, you sleep during the day, you'd 02:09:52.340 --> 02:09:56.119 operate at night under night vision, ranger school, 02:09:56.239 --> 02:09:58.399 all that kind of stuff. You just my clock needed 02:09:58.399 --> 02:10:01.960 to be reset. So I do a lot of focus on sleep 02:10:01.960 --> 02:10:04.819 hygiene as well. I've never even thought about 02:10:04.819 --> 02:10:08.520 this before. Did being asleep during the day 02:10:08.520 --> 02:10:10.760 and then relying a lot on night vision at night 02:10:10.760 --> 02:10:13.840 have any detrimental impact on your actual vision? 02:10:15.960 --> 02:10:19.500 I can tell you that it I mean, I still have 2020 02:10:19.500 --> 02:10:23.600 vision, but, you know, headaches that you would 02:10:23.600 --> 02:10:26.039 get, like the searing pain of looking through 02:10:26.039 --> 02:10:29.100 the green screen for 10 hours on end or, you 02:10:29.100 --> 02:10:30.659 know, that is it when you didn't fall asleep 02:10:30.659 --> 02:10:34.279 droning while on patrol. Big shout out to my 02:10:34.279 --> 02:10:36.819 ranger buddy, Matt, who kept us on four wheels 02:10:36.819 --> 02:10:38.960 at all times because there were some times that 02:10:38.960 --> 02:10:41.239 I was the tactical commander and I was like falling 02:10:41.239 --> 02:10:45.100 asleep. I just couldn't stay awake. But but he 02:10:45.100 --> 02:10:47.859 kept us going. But yeah, I mean, I think I think 02:10:47.859 --> 02:10:49.819 all that stuff has a compounding effect that 02:10:49.819 --> 02:10:51.880 we just we just don't even know the full extent 02:10:51.880 --> 02:10:55.779 of it. You know, I mean, you know, you take that 02:10:55.779 --> 02:10:58.539 and you compound it. So I was a I was a master 02:10:58.539 --> 02:11:01.579 explosives breacher when I was in the Rangers. 02:11:01.680 --> 02:11:04.420 You know, all the micro concussive blasts that 02:11:04.420 --> 02:11:09.300 you sustain, the soft palate damage. That's that's 02:11:09.300 --> 02:11:11.399 why, you know, we have this kind of like it's 02:11:11.399 --> 02:11:14.659 like special operator trifecta. PTSD, traumatic 02:11:14.659 --> 02:11:17.359 brain injury, sleep apnea, you know, like I'm 02:11:17.359 --> 02:11:19.420 completely fit. I got sleep apnea. Where did 02:11:19.420 --> 02:11:22.539 that come from? You know, like it all, I think 02:11:22.539 --> 02:11:27.619 it all, it all compounds. And yeah, man, it's 02:11:27.619 --> 02:11:31.159 just like, it's just like the worst too. Like 02:11:31.159 --> 02:11:33.560 now where I'm at now, you know, one of the things 02:11:33.560 --> 02:11:36.819 that I do for myself is I'll just, you know, 02:11:36.819 --> 02:11:40.079 I'll just tell Kel, like, I'm, I can't stay awake 02:11:40.079 --> 02:11:42.079 anymore. I can stay awake. I know I can stay 02:11:42.079 --> 02:11:46.079 awake. I won't do it anymore. You know, I'll, 02:11:46.079 --> 02:11:48.960 I'll take a nap. You know, I've, I've already, 02:11:49.039 --> 02:11:51.579 I've sustained so much damage with that, that 02:11:51.579 --> 02:11:55.600 it's just not, it's not worth it anymore. Yeah, 02:11:55.659 --> 02:11:58.140 absolutely. Well, sleep debt is real too. So 02:11:58.140 --> 02:12:00.520 we're all walking around with this massive deficit 02:12:00.520 --> 02:12:02.460 that we've got to try and chip out a little bit. 02:12:03.600 --> 02:12:06.699 Absolutely, man. Like do what you got to do to 02:12:06.699 --> 02:12:09.020 get to sleep. You know, like if you haven't had 02:12:09.020 --> 02:12:10.840 a sleep test and you're really struggling with 02:12:10.840 --> 02:12:14.960 it, go get one. you know, like, uh, advocate 02:12:14.960 --> 02:12:17.159 for it with your, with your healthcare provider. 02:12:17.319 --> 02:12:20.159 Um, you know, and I'll tell on myself right now, 02:12:20.180 --> 02:12:22.680 I know I have sleep apnea. I have not been able 02:12:22.680 --> 02:12:27.159 to figure out how to sleep with the CPAP machine. 02:12:27.380 --> 02:12:30.220 It's just be honest with you. It scares the shit 02:12:30.220 --> 02:12:34.359 out of me, um, and wakes me up. Uh, so I'm, I'm 02:12:34.359 --> 02:12:37.539 going to try some of the, um, mouthpieces that 02:12:37.539 --> 02:12:41.539 you can use. Um, But I mean, seriously, look 02:12:41.539 --> 02:12:43.500 at your caffeine intake. Look at your digital 02:12:43.500 --> 02:12:48.680 intake. Set the conditions for success for sleep. 02:12:48.920 --> 02:12:51.060 Do what you got to do. Lower the temperature 02:12:51.060 --> 02:12:55.140 in your room. There's a number of things. Get 02:12:55.140 --> 02:12:58.739 the technology out of your room. My phone does 02:12:58.739 --> 02:13:03.060 not go into my room anymore. Limit distractions 02:13:03.060 --> 02:13:06.520 as best you can. There's some great sleep apps 02:13:06.520 --> 02:13:09.140 out there. that, you know, are kind of like an 02:13:09.140 --> 02:13:12.239 active meditation that will help you, you know, 02:13:12.239 --> 02:13:14.960 really just kind of like decompress, like power, 02:13:15.060 --> 02:13:18.340 like take it seriously is what I would recommend 02:13:18.340 --> 02:13:20.220 because that's what I do is like, you know, come 02:13:20.220 --> 02:13:23.300 nine o 'clock at night. Like I'm, I am preparing 02:13:23.300 --> 02:13:26.899 to, I am powering down, you know, truthfully, 02:13:26.960 --> 02:13:28.800 it's more like eight o 'clock or eight 30 and 02:13:28.800 --> 02:13:31.579 it drives my wife crazy, but you know. But take 02:13:31.579 --> 02:13:33.960 it seriously because you've got to have that 02:13:33.960 --> 02:13:38.319 recovery. Your body, your brain needs to recover 02:13:38.319 --> 02:13:40.600 in that. And if you're struggling with it, man, 02:13:40.779 --> 02:13:44.439 get a test done, see where you're at, make that 02:13:44.439 --> 02:13:46.220 a starting point, and start looking at all those 02:13:46.220 --> 02:13:49.100 other things I listed because sleep debt is real 02:13:49.100 --> 02:13:52.779 and the compounding damage of your body not being 02:13:52.779 --> 02:13:56.479 able to recover is no joke. Have you ever heard 02:13:56.479 --> 02:13:59.520 of a technology called NUCALM? N -U -C -A -L 02:13:59.520 --> 02:14:05.989 -M. so i had the the ceo on the on the show um 02:14:05.989 --> 02:14:09.430 i am not someone that really has confirmation 02:14:09.430 --> 02:14:11.489 bias it's usually the opposite you know i'm thinking 02:14:11.489 --> 02:14:16.289 of snake oil the quick backstory nasa naval special 02:14:16.289 --> 02:14:20.229 warfare at the nfl they had this technology it 02:14:20.229 --> 02:14:22.449 was like a six thousand dollar big box in their 02:14:22.449 --> 02:14:24.270 room and there was a chair and then you put on 02:14:24.270 --> 02:14:27.409 headphones and a sleep mask and you listen to 02:14:27.409 --> 02:14:30.630 this thing and it gives you like the equivalent 02:14:30.630 --> 02:14:33.350 of 90 minutes of sleep and it's also down regulating 02:14:33.350 --> 02:14:37.189 the nervous system um well smartphones advance 02:14:37.189 --> 02:14:40.170 so so far that now it's an app on your phone 02:14:40.170 --> 02:14:42.949 and the back story is this incredibly intelligent 02:14:42.949 --> 02:14:45.710 scientist we had in the us who figured out the 02:14:45.710 --> 02:14:47.550 frequency of brain waves at different mental 02:14:47.550 --> 02:14:50.210 states and then figured out how to put the brain 02:14:50.210 --> 02:14:54.039 into that state i've never seen anything from 02:14:54.039 --> 02:14:56.880 that kind of you know genre that works so well 02:14:56.880 --> 02:14:59.300 that i just did a power nap the 20 minute one 02:14:59.300 --> 02:15:01.500 right before we recorded and i'm as we've talked 02:15:01.500 --> 02:15:03.239 about i'm sick at the moment so i'm trying to 02:15:03.239 --> 02:15:05.380 trying to get the quality sleep but they also 02:15:05.380 --> 02:15:08.000 have ones that you play at night and there's 02:15:08.000 --> 02:15:10.100 a new one now that will kind of put you to sleep 02:15:10.100 --> 02:15:12.600 then it's that kind of you know keeping you there 02:15:12.600 --> 02:15:15.479 and then it's the other side so that is another 02:15:15.479 --> 02:15:19.180 really you know um powerful tool whether it's 02:15:19.180 --> 02:15:22.279 just simply doing a nap during the day um or 02:15:22.279 --> 02:15:25.140 if it's actually trying to be that ambient noise 02:15:25.140 --> 02:15:27.460 in the background but the undulation beneath 02:15:27.460 --> 02:15:31.119 beneath the track is really what's telling your 02:15:31.119 --> 02:15:34.920 brain hey go to sleep unlike you know a playlist 02:15:34.920 --> 02:15:37.340 on spotify i mean i love spotify but this is 02:15:37.340 --> 02:15:40.060 a completely different technology so What's it 02:15:40.060 --> 02:15:46.000 called? NUCALM. And they have a free trial. I 02:15:46.000 --> 02:15:47.300 think it's like a week's free trial as well. 02:15:47.439 --> 02:15:51.539 But it's phenomenal. And it's passive. You don't 02:15:51.539 --> 02:15:53.319 have a choice to downregulate. It's going to 02:15:53.319 --> 02:15:56.180 downregulate you. And I can't nap. All the sleep 02:15:56.180 --> 02:15:58.020 deprivation I have, I've never been able to nap 02:15:58.020 --> 02:16:01.300 in the fire station, not on a regular basis. 02:16:01.380 --> 02:16:03.840 So this gives me that equivalent of that. And 02:16:03.840 --> 02:16:05.960 from a heightened state, it brings me back down. 02:16:06.119 --> 02:16:10.090 So amazing tool. It's so funny how, how, how 02:16:10.090 --> 02:16:15.489 it like the, like the variations, what would 02:16:15.489 --> 02:16:18.050 happen to me is like, I could fall asleep like 02:16:18.050 --> 02:16:21.670 that at an instant anywhere, you know, whether 02:16:21.670 --> 02:16:23.630 driving, whether just sitting down, I would just 02:16:23.630 --> 02:16:26.789 be out, but I wouldn't get that restorative sleep 02:16:26.789 --> 02:16:29.350 because I'd have so many disturbances and whatnot. 02:16:29.729 --> 02:16:32.350 So I love that. I'll check out, I'll check out 02:16:32.350 --> 02:16:34.430 that new calm. That's, that's really interesting. 02:16:34.950 --> 02:16:37.489 Yeah. Thank you. It's phenomenal. Let me know. 02:16:37.879 --> 02:16:39.659 All right. Well, then the very last thing, where 02:16:39.659 --> 02:16:41.819 can people find Applied Leadership Partners? 02:16:41.920 --> 02:16:43.899 And then where are the best places to find the 02:16:43.899 --> 02:16:47.620 book? Yeah, thank you for asking. You can find 02:16:47.620 --> 02:16:51.299 us at AppliedLeadershipPartners .com. That is 02:16:51.299 --> 02:16:56.540 our website. You can find me personally at LinkedIn 02:16:56.540 --> 02:16:58.659 is probably the best place. I'm just Brandon 02:16:58.659 --> 02:17:00.559 Young. I think it's actually like Brandon Young 02:17:00.559 --> 02:17:05.440 14. I don't know. You can buy Perseverance is 02:17:05.440 --> 02:17:08.260 Greater Than Endurance anywhere books are sold. 02:17:08.719 --> 02:17:12.260 So please go to Amazon if you prefer Amazon. 02:17:12.879 --> 02:17:15.879 Please go to Barnes & Noble if you prefer Barnes 02:17:15.879 --> 02:17:18.139 & Noble or Books A Million if you prefer Books 02:17:18.139 --> 02:17:23.979 A Million. But we would we would sure be honored 02:17:23.979 --> 02:17:28.319 if you would allow us into your journey by grabbing 02:17:28.319 --> 02:17:30.000 this book and you can get it anywhere you get 02:17:30.000 --> 02:17:31.579 books. And you can also there's going to be an 02:17:31.579 --> 02:17:35.899 audible version. uh out uh on february 11th and 02:17:35.899 --> 02:17:38.739 there's also going to be a kindle version so 02:17:38.739 --> 02:17:42.379 yeah fantastic well i want to say i mean it's 02:17:42.379 --> 02:17:44.680 an incredible book and just you know like you 02:17:44.680 --> 02:17:47.159 touched on one more light the one i wrote when 02:17:47.159 --> 02:17:51.540 you few storytelling into takeaway concepts. 02:17:51.680 --> 02:17:53.579 I think that's the ultimate learning tool. And 02:17:53.579 --> 02:17:56.059 you do that so beautifully between yourself and 02:17:56.059 --> 02:17:58.879 Blaine with those two different lenses that you 02:17:58.879 --> 02:18:01.299 have. So I highly recommend people, you know, 02:18:01.299 --> 02:18:02.959 whether they listen in February or whether they 02:18:02.959 --> 02:18:05.200 buy it now. So I want to thank you for being 02:18:05.200 --> 02:18:07.979 so generous with your time today and coming on 02:18:07.979 --> 02:18:10.760 the Behind the Shield podcast. Well, thanks for 02:18:10.760 --> 02:18:12.120 having me, James. It's been an honor.