This episode is sponsored by TeamBuilder, yet
another company that's doing great things for
the first responder community. As a strength
and conditioning coach myself who also trains
tactical athletes, dissemination of wellness
information is one of the biggest challenges.
Now TeamBuildr is the premier strength and conditioning
software for tactical athletes and there are
several features that really impress me. Firstly,
there is a full exercise library. So you, the
personal trainer, does not have to create that
within your own department. Secondly, you can
send out programming, but also individualize,
which I love. So you blanket program for everyone.
Now you can tweak based on someone's injury,
someone's need to maybe drop some body composition,
rather than having to write a program for every
single person on their own. TeamBuildr also
allows you to build custom questionnaires to
collate health and wellness data. It integrates
with wearables. And I think one of the most important
things is obviously it tracks. To me, it's imperative
that we as a profession start tracking our people
from day one and then over the full span of their
career, therefore catching potential wellness
issues and injuries before they happen. Now,
if you want to try Team Builder, they are offering
you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast,
a free 14 -day trial to experience all of the
features. And if you want to take a deeper dive
into TeamBuildr, listen to episode 1032 with
Melissa Mercado or go to teambuilder .com. And
I'll spell that to you because it's not as you
think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome
to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,
my name is James Gearing, and this week it is
my absolute honor to welcome on the show Army
Ranger veteran and co -author of Perseverance
is Greater Than Endurance, Brandon Young. Now,
in this conversation, we discuss a host of topics,
from his unique journey into the military, Ranger
selection, the horrors of war, moral injury,
altruism, leadership. the difference between
enduring and persevering, growth, and so much
more. Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment,
go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show, leave feedback, and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
well over 1 ,000 episodes now. So all I ask in
return is that you help share these incredible
men and women's stories so I can get them to
every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. So with that being said, I introduce
to you Brandon Young. Enjoy. Well, Brandon, I
want to start by saying thank you so, so much
to D .D. Finder for making the connection. And
I want to welcome you onto the Behind the Shield
podcast today. Well, thanks for having me, James.
And, you know, big shout out, big love to D .D.
Finder. What a great, great, great man. Absolutely.
And a great author, too. I love his book. You
ain't kidding. So where on planet Earth are we
finding you this afternoon? I am on the outskirts
of Denver in a little community called Roxborough.
So I live at about 6 ,000 feet. I'm at the base
of the foothills of the Rocky Mountains. Brilliant.
Well, let's start at the very beginning of your
timeline. So tell me where you were born and
tell me a little bit about your family dynamic,
what your parents did, how many siblings. Okay.
So I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area and
I am the youngest of three. My father, when he
was around, was a pretty unwell gentleman. I
would say that he was mostly addicted to wealth,
power, and women and did anything that he could
to chase all of those until he finally chased
away and went off on us when I was 11. So my
mother raised three kids in the most expensive
geography in the country. And being the youngest
of three, it can be a little bit rough, you know,
shit rolls downhill. So I kind of grew up like
a bit of a lit fuse. I was a pretty angry kid,
got into a lot of fights, got into a lot of trouble,
and was very fortunate that I found martial arts,
got into Muay Thai kickboxing. and Western boxing
and some different forms of Kung Fu at the Boxing
Chole Foot Kung Fu Association in Fremont, California.
And that really helped me out. That really kept
me off of the streets and fighting in a ring,
so to speak, where I should be fighting. And
then from there, I graduated high school, joined
the United States Army, and after completing
all the prerequisites, was assigned to the 2nd
Ranger Battalion, where I would remain in the
Rangers for just shy of a decade. I had an Uber
ride a while ago now, and this will tie into
what you just said. And the gentleman that drove
us home was a beautiful, beautiful soul. He was
from San Francisco originally. And we ended up
having such a great conversation that Uber sent
him and us a kind of, are you getting murdered
alert? Because we were sitting in the parking
lot talking still. And we both went, no, no,
we're good. We're just chatting. But he made
an incredible point. In San Francisco. When the
cost of living is so high, the ability to fall
into the poverty area is a lot greater than if
you were in, say, where I'm living now in Ocala.
Talk to me about that. Because of the affluence,
because of the overpricing of the real estate
there, how easy is it for people to really be
struggling even though they're in such an affluent
area of the country? Yeah, very easy, I will
say. So my mother on a high school education
was working four jobs just to keep us kids where
we were in the same community. I was a free and
reduced lunch kid. I was getting donations from
our school to go to the dances and all that kind
of stuff. And I would say that. at face value
you look at a community like the east bay of
san francisco 80s 90s massive explosion of wealth
high affluence culture and at face value just
like your uber driver had mentioned it looks
like everything is just lovely you know this
is like this is the this is the palace right
here you know everything is great But there are
so many people who fall through the cracks of
poverty for a number of reasons, you know, whether
they be single parent homes. And I think something
like 50 % of homes in America or children in
America are being raised in single parent homes.
It's tough. And so for me, I felt like I was
a little bit of a outsider on the inside of the
affluence culture because, you know, like I didn't.
I didn't have the, you know, the nice clothes.
I didn't have the nice cars. I worked at the
fruit stand. So there was this fruit stand in
Fremont, California called the Nagata Brothers
Farm. And the Nagata Brothers were these Japanese
brothers who had established this fruit stand.
And it was a little bit of like the land of misfit
toys in the sense that. All of the guys working
there, the guys and gals, most of us were kind
of on the outside of that affluence culture,
started working when we were 13, 14, because
we had to. And the blessing in that was that
I learned a lot about hard work. These brothers
were, I mean, saints. My first car, Bob Nagata
bought for me. from his sister for 500 it was
a 1984 honda accord lx i called it the x -wing
it had 250 000 miles on it but i didn't have
a father to you know teach me how to drive or
shave or anything like that my big brother was
the one who kind of showed me how to shave and
you know do all that kind of stuff and um and
so it's easy to fall into the into that trap
of poverty amidst an affluent culture. And truth
be told is I just, I just felt like a total outsider,
even though I had great friends. I mean, I had
wonderful friends who really kind of held me
together. I mean, it was, it was really a community
of amazing people. Some who are actually, you
know, in the fire services, one of them, fire
captain of Manteca, Derek Leong, big ups to my
OG best friend from school. But But, you know,
it's it's easy to fall into that. And it just
kind of I think I learned very early on the importance
and the power of genuine relationships and community.
I had quite a dichotomy growing up because I
grew up on a farm in England. And if you'd walked
up the drive and seen this majestic three story
house, as most people rightly thought, oh, they
must be extremely well off. My dad was a veterinary
surgeon. But on paper, there was that the reality
was day to day. that there were a lot of times
we wore hand -me -down clothes. You know, there
were times my siblings were just talking recently
and we talked about flour cakes. And I'd never
thought about this, that flour cakes are just
flour and water, I think sometimes an egg. And
that would be our dinner sometimes. Never even
crossed my mind that's because that was all that
was in the pantry. And again, so you've got these
people thinking that you're really wealthy behind
closed doors. You are extremely wealthy as far
as quality of life because you live on a farm.
You know, you've got these fields and these animals
and my dad's healing. But as far as what people
think of wealth and, you know, you know, frequent
vacations and eating out as a family, none of
that, none of that. So it was a real kind of
juxtaposition because you were seen one way and
people had no idea that actually behind closed
doors, not all the time, but sometimes it was
a very different story. Yeah. So you mentioned
about your father. I really like exploring the
kind of multi -generational element because these
are dominoes and they tend to go through generations.
Have you ever had the ability to reflect on the
upbringing that he had that created this void
that he was constantly chasing to fill, even
though actually the real nurturing element was
his family around him the whole time? It's a
really good question. When I was in grad school
at Denver Seminary, we did a project called a
genogram. And in a genogram, you kind of map
out your family history. You map out some of
the kind of the big moments, the things that
that affected. And the hard thing about my father
and filling in those blanks is that you never
really knew what was true because I don't think
he actually knew what was true. You know, I think
he was just a really unwell person. is really
what it comes down to. And that's sad. You know,
I tried really hard when I was 18 and I got to
the Army. So my dad had been in the Army. And
my whole upbringing, he would introduce the three
of us. So my brother's the oldest, my sister
is the middle, and then I'm the youngest. And
he would introduce us as his son, his daughter,
and his Marine. And I was always, you know, I
was the Marine, whatever that, you know, meant
in his eyes. And he would tell me all, you know,
these stories. He'd always hang on to this one
story about, you know, his time in service when
he was a Green Beret. And when I got to the Army,
when I was 18, I said, look, we, you've kind
of opted out on the whole being my father thing.
But we have this commonality as in terms of being
soldiers. I'd love to have a relationship with
you. Let's see how that goes. And after a couple
of years of that and, you know, asking kind of
like, what was the, tell me the, tell me the
truth. You know, he used to say like, you know,
I'll tell you about that someday over a beer
when you're old enough. And when I was old enough
and we were sitting there over a beer, what,
and I started to ask like, you know, second,
third, fourth level questions. based on knowledge
now as a soldier, what I came to understand is
that not only was he not a Green Beret, which
is stolen valor, as he completely lied about
that, but he benefited when he was a personnel
clerk in Germany, he would take bribes to switch
out names on the manifests going over to Vietnam.
And I just looked at that and I said, you know
what? you're just not the kind of person that
i associate with you know so i i think we're
i think we're good here and it was just hard
to really understand i know that his father was
in the army i don't know what he did in the army
he told me that he was you know like a world
war ii ranger probably not um but i don't know
i just i don't really know you could never really
discern what the truth was. And so I think that
at some point, there is a choice, right? We talk
about this all the time when you're persevering,
right? There is a choice. You can accept the
reality of the situation in front of you. You
can accept what you can and cannot control, and
then you get to make a choice. And I think the
choice that I made was just to surrender any...
Any hope that I would ever get a clear answer
on his upbringing and surrender any hope that
I would ever get kind of like the apology. The,
you know, recognition of of how what he did affected
all of us. And, you know, that was that was the
opportunity that I had. And it's the choice that
I took. I'll just kind of wrap this story by
telling you that on his deathbed. So, um, I flew
out and it was kind of, you know, he was dying
of cancer and it was one of these things where,
you know, every now and every couple of years
we'd get this like, oh, your father has got cancer.
He's dying. He's whatever. Um, and it's just
like, okay, you know, um, not really sure what's
true. What's not true. This time he was dying
and we came out. And I just remember I was really
seeking in terms of my faith. I had had a lot
of experiences as a child, a lot of experiences
in the war where it was kind of like I got nowhere
else to look but up. And I'm kind of crying out
to God to save me. And so I was kind of on a
journey in that regard. And I'll never forget,
I was in the hospital. He's intubated. He's in
the bed. And I said, does anybody have like a
Bible? Like, I don't have a Bible, you know.
you know, it's not really the life that I kind
of grew up in. And I said, there's this like
verse that's rolling around in my brain that
I just can't like let go of. And someone's like,
yeah, here, Tina, take this. And so I read over
him Romans 12, 19, which says, vengeance is mine,
says the Lord, do not repay. It is mine to repay.
And I read that over him and said, hey, look,
I forgive you for everything that you ever did
to me. And, you know. I leave that here in this
room. And that was a real blessing for me and
a real it was just, you know, one of many, I
would say, kind of hilltop moments or, you know,
crucible moments and choices that I made along
my journey that has that has led to a lot of
growth and healing. I've had a similar experience
and it's the exact same mindset. I think I remember
Wayne Dyer saying, you know, when there's. The
struggle in your life, you know, it's just as
you touched on. You either can control it or
you can't control it. If you can control it,
then make those changes. Change whatever that
issue is. If you can't, then move on. And it
was the same thing, like investing time and trying
to get change and being there. But at a certain
point, just saying, okay, that was enough. You
know, I'm not expecting this lofty goal of, you
know, tears and apologies and all these kind
of things. It's just, you know. Love one way
regardless. But it's like I remember, again,
Wayne Dyer saying, if you hold a door open for
someone, they don't say thank you on the way
out and you get pissed off, you are holding the
door for the wrong reason. Yeah, that's right.
So hold the door regardless. That's right. And
for me, I felt like it was, I felt like there
was a block of bitterness that I did not want
to hold anymore. And I felt like it was more
me releasing that and surrendering and saying,
look, I don't think I really understood it then.
I have spent a lot of time in reflection since
that time and growth. In reality, I think that
it was a block between my heavenly father and
me as opposed to my earthly father and me. My
earthly father opted out and there's nothing
I could do about that. What it did is it created,
and I think a lot of people experience this,
is when you get left behind by a parent, oftentimes
it ends up being a father, you inherit this sense
of worthlessness. And that's what I inherited
when I was a young guy, is I inherited a sense
of worthlessness that I thought... Um, I, all
I'm good for is destruction. And so I'm going
to pursue that path and it's going to lead me
where it leads me. And, you know, I, I fully
expected I, when I joined the Rangers, there
was no version of my Ranger story that concluded
with me living on the back end of it. I just
didn't think it was going to happen. I didn't
think I'd live past 25. And I thought that that
was okay because in that. culture of affluence.
I looked around and I saw families that said,
I love you to each other. They hugged, they had
dinners together. They went on vacations together.
They wore the North face and all the cool things.
And I was just like, great. Clearly they were
made for that. I wasn't, but I can fight for
their ability to enjoy that. And that was one
of my motives for, for really going in is, is.
You know, like these Americans deserve the freedom
that we have been afforded and somebody's got
to fight for it. So here am I, send me. Before
we go into your military journey, how has your
perception of your father's fatherhood affected
you as a father? I mean, so much of my journey
as a father, I would say early on was colored
by my father and his father, you know, the father
-father and the cascade of those impacts. I think
he must have been deeply wounded by his father
when my father was a young man. I can only imagine.
I can only imagine he was deeply wounded by...
My grandmother, I mean, she was not a well lady
either. You know, when my father married my mother.
So my mother is Jewish. My father grew up in
an Episcopalian house, I think. And my father
converted to Judaism to marry my mother. And
his mother refused to talk to him for years.
And when she did, called him Jew boy. And so
there's just. something's going on there that
is just all types of messed up, right? And, you
know, we were kind of shunned in a way as like
the Jew kids, I guess. But that's kind of the
way that I came up and how it affected me as
a father. There's just so many ways. I would
say that in many ways, though, I so desperately...
wanted to run to my children and to my family
i ran from the specter of my father in my life
for probably the first i would say 10 years of
our marriage which was incredibly chaotic and
and deeply intertwined with my military story
and so you know the desire was there i i wanted
to be present. I wanted to be a loving father.
I didn't have the tools. I didn't have the awareness.
And I honestly was just so lost that I ended
up though wanting to run to them. I ran from
that specter and I made a lot of really, really
hurtful mistakes. What changed? When did you
turn that corner and how? In a word, I would
say Jesus changed my heart and my life. I mean,
that's the simple story. The longer story is
that I just, when I got out of the army in 2009,
I got out because I wanted to be a husband and
a dad. I really did. I had been in the army then
for 11 years. I had done four rotations to Afghanistan.
And I so badly wanted to be Kelly's husband and
Jaden and Ellie's dad. A key moment that really
transformed my life was actually seeing our daughter
born. So she's our second child, our daughter
Ellie. I got to be there for that. And why that's
important is because when our son Jaden was born,
I was deployed. So I missed the birth of my son.
And it was... It wrecked me on the inside, right?
As a guy who grew up without a dad around, last
thing I wanted to be was absent as a father.
First thing I was as a father. And the truth
is, is that I chased it because I chased the
combat. Like I was going to be damned if someone
else was going to lead my rangers in combat.
And so I lied about it to Kelly. I told her I
had no choice. It's just kind of the way the
cookie crumbles. I'm a service member at war.
It is what it is. I mean, by the way, this is
like. 2002. So the towers had just fallen and,
um, and, uh, that really affected. And so that
really affected the way that I fathered. And,
you know, I, I got out of the military in 09
to, to be that husband and dad. And I, I immediately
took a job that put me on a road, on the road
in the hotel three nights a week, really smart
because I just kept running. Because I didn't
know what to do. And because I wasn't very well.
I was going with undiagnosed PTSD and traumatic
brain injuries and sleep apnea for years. Because
the way it works in the military is that you
get out of the military, you're supposed to walk
over to the VA and say, help. I need help. Something's
wrong with me. Well, that's completely irrational
when I just spent a decade being expected to
be an indomitable. You know, U .S. Army Ranger,
premier direct action raid force in the U .S.
military. I'm supposed to be indomitable, 10
feet tall, Sergeant First Class man on the objective.
And then I'm supposed to just take off my uniform,
walk across the street and say, oh, I can I be
vulnerable with you? I need help. That's irrational.
That is an irrational thought to think that you're
going to go from that culture to the next culture
and think that you'll just get help. So I did
what all of us do. I said, I don't want anything
from you and I'm fine. And they said, great.
Well, if you're fine, then you're fine. And then
six years later, I walked back in for the first
time and told the truth. And they were like,
yeah, you're not fine. You have PTSD and traumatic
brain injuries. And let's start working on this
kind of stuff. But the turning point for me came
before I walked into that therapist's office.
We had been struggling. You know, two years I
had been out of the military. After a year and
a half of being out of the military, I was just
like, forget it. This isn't for me. I'm going
to go back to the fight. I started getting recruited
by a three letter agencies, kind of like a direct
action team. I was kind of in the end stages
of that. The door got shut in my face with no
real warning or reason. It was quite odd. And
the next week, my company said, hey, how'd you
like to move from? the Alabama territory to Colorado.
And at that point in time, Kelly and I were just
holding on by a thread. And I said to her, like,
do you want to move to Colorado? And she's like,
yeah, let's do it. We left and got out here and
we had been out here for a couple months and
I had been kind of really seeking, just trying
to understand like, why, why did it all have
to be so hard? Why is it that when I was. you
know, in a helicopter going down over the Chagall
Valley that all of a sudden I cried out to God
for help and miraculously a double -propped helicopter
comes out of a dead spin in the dead of night.
Can't explain that. And yet here I am. And it
was really cool because we were open to it. We
had been asking a lot of questions. We were trying
to figure out how to put together a marriage
that had been ripped apart by... death, war,
separation, all the things. And we got invited
to this church in Colorado, Mission Hills. And,
you know, we went and I was like, huh, like,
this is interesting. This Pastor Mike guy, he's
talking to us like we're smart. He's not talking
to us like we're stupid. And he's not talking
down to us. That's interesting. And so I was
like, oh, we'll come back in next week. And,
you know, we come back and what's up with this?
This guy, Rick, every time he sees me in the
lobby, he's like, hey, we're glad you're here.
I'm like, really? Are you sure? Because I'm not
sure if I'm supposed to be here. He's like, no,
it's good to meet you. Glad you're here. And
we just kept coming back. And Kelly and I would
go on to give our lives to Jesus at that church.
And, you know, I think the thing is, is that
everybody, it's not like when you come to a relationship
with Christ, there's like this magical wand,
like God's not a slot machine, right? It doesn't
work that way. It's not like everything just
magically got better. But our lives in that instant
were transformed and we started to, you know,
really walk the course. And here we are, you
know, many years later, which is a whole other
story to get into because Kelly and I actually
remarried in 2018. Because the truth is, is we
lost our first marriage at the behest of all
of the chaos that happened in the first 10 years.
One more area and then we'll start that journey.
But this is what I love about the organic nature
of this podcast. This is something that I've
really struggled to articulate to a completely
overworked, underslept fire service. Is the ultimate
currency is not that 50 cent pay raise, but actually
time with your family. And at the moment, as
we spoke before, and you've read one more light
as well. we are in a recruitment crisis so you've
got so many people that work 56 hours and they
get a mandatory overtime so you're about to go
home you get a phone call like you're not about
to go home another 24 hours and now you're calling
your son or your daughter hey that thing that
i promised to go to donuts with dads i can't
come again and the guilt and shame that's you
know interwoven with that and the fact that your
partner you know may have a career and needs
to go to work and all these things With this
walking the walk element that you did, which
I did the same thing, I transitioned out the
fire service and been home now for six and a
half years as my son went through high school
and was about to graduate. What advice would
you give one of your soldiers or a firefighter
listening as far as analyzing the situation that
you're in and maybe reprioritizing? The kind
of, and I mean this empathetically, the ego side
of wanting to be that chess beating warrior or
firefighter versus the impact of simply being
present with your own family. Yeah. You know,
it's something that my good friend and business
partner who you've met, Blaine Smith, he's the
co -author of Perseverance is Greater Than Endurance
along with me. Blaine and I call this the trap
of identity asymmetry. And, you know, you mentioned
the word ego and identity asymmetry simply stated
is over identifying with your career or your
accomplishments or your career and your accomplishments.
And it's easy to do. Like, I totally get it.
You know, not only do I empathize, but I can
sympathize because I have been there. You know,
I was a ranger's ranger. Right. I mean, God's
sakes, I have I have Ranger tattooed on my back
and it's not small. Right. I mean, everything
in my life revolved around Ranger. And it's because,
you know, in many ways, it was kind of the first
family that I felt like I fit into. It was the
first environment that I was like, oh, this is
where I belong. You know, these people were our
brothers. Right. I mean. Six roommates, by the
way, in a four -man room in the late 90s, six
roommates, every one of us came from a broken
home, James, all of us. And the bond that we
created and the excellence that you pursue, go
to ranger school, you get promoted, you become
a jump master, you become a sergeant, you become
a staff sergeant, a squad leader, all these things,
and you're kind of pursuing and pursuing. Not
because it's a bad thing, but because you're
trying to genuinely invest in your profession.
And the thing about it is, is that inevitably,
it's common for that to just occupy such a large
space in your heart and in your mind that it
kind of crowds everything else out. And so the
advice that I would give is just to, one, recognize
that what you do is important. But you're not
what you do. Who you are is greater than what
you do. And the truth is that I didn't really
get in my first, call it 10 years of fatherhood,
is my kids didn't care that I was, you know,
Ranger, Ranger, whatever, right? My kids didn't
care that I, you know, did the best Ranger competition
in 2006 and podiumed at third with my partner,
Jeremiah. They didn't care about any of that.
All they cared about was me. They just wanted
me to be around and I didn't get it. And I think
it's really easy to to gain an asymmetrical sense
of identity from what we do, especially when
what we do is not just a job. It's a lifestyle.
You know, you look at the fire services, responders,
law enforcement, military. You know, this is
not just a job. This is a way of life. This is
a there is a whole culture around that. I get
it. I don't say this lightly when I say. Beware
of identity asymmetry. The other thing that I
would say is that it's, you know, people talk
all the time about balance. For the most part,
I think that that just that word in itself inspires
stress or anxiety. It makes me feel like I'm
on a tightrope or that I'm spinning plates and
everything like that. I don't know. You know,
when I think of balance, I think about like.
a mental abacus where, well, if I spend this
much time at work, then I got to spend this much
time over here or I'm going to be a failure.
And then I got to spend this much time with this
kid, but then I got to spend this much time.
It's like, I don't know. I would suggest that
integration might be a little bit more of a rich
way to go about your life and finding ways where
you can actually integrate your life into these
different elements. And, you know, you think
about the job, like, look. 56 hours surge plus
24. Now we're in 80 hours. Probably have gotten
maybe, I don't know, five hours of sleep in that
time. Maybe, I don't know. But there's going
to have to be some margin created somewhere or
else life will bring that margin down upon your
head in a way that you do not want to experience.
And so for any of those that are out there, I
mean, I would just say, look, I get it. There
are times where you have to surge. That's fine.
But think about this. When you're on deployment,
right, you're still a dad. You're still a mom.
You're still a spouse. You're still a child of
somebody. You still have bills to pay. You still
have a house to maintain. All of these things
are actually true. Your life is far more a factor
of integration. than it is a factor of balance.
Like you take our time and put it into a pie
chart, right? Like, well, if I do 80 % of my
time here and then I 20 % here and this and that,
like think about if that pie chart was like a
pizza, right? And you had all the ingredients.
If you had all the pepperoni on one slice and
you had all the cheese on one slice and you had
all the bell peppers on one slice, that pizza
would suck. You know, pizzas are far more rich
when they're far more well integrated and we
kind of spread all that stuff around. And so
I would say looking for ways to live that integrated
life, respecting the fact that, you know, like
you're only going to get so much time with your
kids. Both of my kids are out of the house. You
know, I'm an empty nester. Kelly and I are empty
nesters. You're only going to get so much time.
And I can't say that I can look back. and say
that I'm thankful for the extra shifts that I
took or the extra drives that I made driving
the 60 ,000 miles around the state of Alabama
as my sales territory, that extra night I spent
in the hotel. I can't say that I can look back
and say that I'm really glad that I did that
and instead chose to miss my kids' dance recital.
I can't say that. But I can say that I am glad
that I... Took a step back and started to assess
what was really important to my life and to my
family's life and start to make those decisions
because the hard reality of it is this. I left
the Rangers almost 20 years ago. Guess what?
They're doing just fine without me. Absolutely.
And this is the thing is, you know, with the
fire service, it's not even like a call to action
to leave. It's a call to action to fight for.
a work week that allows you to be home, a work
week that brings young people back in our profession,
fills the holes. And therefore, as you said,
I love that word, the surge. You have the surge
event, the wildfires, the tornadoes, the hurricanes,
you know, the avalanche. I was just watching
a documentary on that moment. Whatever it is,
that's an all -hands event. Yes, you kiss your
loved ones goodbye. You say, dad's got to go
help some people. But that's a once in a while
tool to be used, not a 10 year staffing model.
So getting my population to really take a step
back and prioritize what is the most important
thing. Just like you said, your children won't
remember the extra shift in a positive way, but
they will remember when you weren't there, when
you promised you would be. Yeah, that's right.
And, you know, I I've never served in the fire
services. I have. just the utmost respect for
what y 'all are doing out there. I mean, it is
truly incredible and humbling. So thank you for
any responders that are out there. Thank you
for what you do. I mean, it is incredible. I
can't really speak into the work week components
of it, although I'm very, I think you've done
a really great job at painting. the problem in
one more light and the solution, which I really
appreciate. You've framed the issue. You've given
us a way to address it. But I want to share maybe
an illustration, a story from my life that I
think relates to this, because I think what you're
saying is bang on, James. And I think it's critical
for this to be solved for. When the towers fell
on 9 -11, I was engaged to be married to Kelly.
So we were supposed to be married in December
of 2001. At this point, I was the squad leader
of a nine -man ranger assault squad. The Rangers
are America's premier direct action raid force.
We don't show up anywhere to hand out water bottles
or candy or do humanitarian aid. If we show up,
you're done screwed up and we're going to basically
deal with you. That's kind of the mission set,
right? So it's a very aggressive, direct action
special operations force. And Kelly and I were
supposed to be married in December. Well, in
addition to the towers falling on September 11th,
2001, Kelly's mother was in the hospital after
having her first round of chemotherapy. And so.
That night would end up becoming her 53rd and
final birthday, 9 -11, because she went home
on hospice care the next day. And a couple of
days later, she had a kind of a day of clarity.
So on September 17th, 2001, Kelly and I called
it just as the peace over, got married in the
living room of the house Kelly grew up in. Her
mother died two days later, and I deployed to
the Middle East eight days after that. Now, it
was a pre -planned deployment to Jordan that
kind of started to evolve as the battlefield
situation started to evolve. And we kind of thought
we would be the initial launch point over into
Afghanistan. It ended up being 3rd Ranger Battalion
that did the jump into Afghanistan on October
19th, 2001. But we were over in this sequestered
package, this Joint Special Operations Task Force
package. So I couldn't call home. And I get to
call home finally after three weeks and Kelly
answers the phone and she says, I'm pregnant.
To which I said, of course you are. And then
nine months later, our son Jaden is born and
I'm listening from a satellite phone in Afghanistan
while they're in Seattle. And the thing is this.
We had three guys in our unit. whose wives were
pregnant and, you know, about to pop, right?
One of them was a staff officer who really wasn't
kind of mission critical in the moment. They
got to send him home. Another one was a young
ranger who was like the 13th man in an 11 -man
weapon squad. We got to send him home. I couldn't
go home. I was not allowed to go home because
I was mission critical, right? And it's funny,
too, because when you're a young soldier, a young
special operator, you're like, man, someday I
hope I'm mission critical. Until you're mission
critical at the very worst point in time. And
it's like, sorry, you know, we got to have you
surge here. And the upshot of it all is that
I missed my son's birth. It was really devastating
on my heart. I was around for maybe three of
the first 36 months of our marriage. That was
devastating as well. I lay this down to tell
you that the interesting part about all of this
is those leaders, they would go on. The young
man who was a young Ranger back in 2002, he literally
is the senior ranking enlisted Ranger in the
United States Army right now. Senior ranking,
command sergeant major. And he was there. He
saw that. Other leaders were there. They saw
that. A couple years later, I was told, you know,
you were the last one, right? You were the last
one that the battalion did not allow to go home
to experience the birth of their child, right?
And I just got a chance to go back to the 2nd
Ranger Battalion for our 50th anniversary. And
I was blown away because I was talking to senior
leaders of this. exceptional special operations
force that is worldwide deployable in 18 hours
notice, right? And these leaders are telling
me I have an active roster of every pregnant
spouse in the battalion. We keep check -ins on
every ranger. We make sure that they know that
they will be peeled off on training events that
they do not need to be on. They do not miss their
kids' births. We pull them off and we change
the game because this is a critical life event
and we don't want our rangers missing it. That's
growth. And like I said, I've never served in
the fire services, but I got to tell you. that
if the Army Rangers, who are a very, what's the
best way to describe us, disciplined and hard
-nosed environment, if we can flex to invest
in our Rangers, their families, their children,
that has proven to increase mission lethality.
in the long run. I absolutely love that. I mean,
again, it's just the reprioritization. It's funny,
I was actually, I think it was yesterday, just
on Instagram, it popped up, those World War II
pictures of sailors and soldiers and airmen leaning
out of train windows and their buddies are holding
them by the legs while they kiss their loved
one one last time. And that's it. I mean, back
then, that was valued. All the loved ones were
there when they deployed. All the loved ones
were there in parades when they came back. And
that was the 40s, almost 100 years ago. And I
think that, you know, the fire service, not all
of them, but a lot of us, you know, we've just
got stuck in this, arguably this kind of 1980s
Stallone Robocop mentality that we are. And I've
heard, you know, several of your peers use this
term disposable heroes. You go out there, you
do your man stuff and then you suck it up and,
you know. Go drink yourself into oblivion. You're
not a problem anymore. And you look at the progressive
corporations and even things that are happening
in the military like you just detailed and you're
light years ahead of us. Yeah. Yeah, that makes
me really sad. And, you know, I have a number
of firefighters in my life who firefighters and
law enforcement who have struggled with the impact
of that. And it's heartbreaking. You know, impact
that includes, you know, you mentioned alcoholism,
addictions, you know, could be drugs, could be
sex, could be alcohol, suicide. I mean, it's
all right there. And it's like we're looking
right at it. And look, I don't think we have
all the answers in the military or anything like
that. But I just. In my estimation, we are kindred
communities. You know, we are we are we are those
who raise our hands and run into the burning
building. We are those who have a servant's heart.
And I think the kindred aspect of it is that
there's a lot of consequence that comes with
that. And we need to be the best at taking care
of ours, knowing. And knowing what we're going
through, because, you know, I love how you said
like the Stallone, like I feel like I was raised
by Rambo, you know, raised by Rambo and Commando.
Right. And yeah, I mean, I embrace that, too.
But you're going to reach the extent of what
your of what your mind, your body and your soul
can endure. And, you know, that's that's a big
part of the way that we see the world, because.
Blaine and I have had to persevere. We've had
to change. We've had to do things differently
and found that in doing that have become far
more effective for the long haul. Absolutely.
Well, let's kind of finally now walk through
the front door of the military for you. Talk
to me about what took you into the army and then
the Rangers specifically. And then at that front
door. What was your experience of leadership,
whether phenomenal or terrible? What was the
kind of landscape you were exposed to early in
your career? Yeah, well, it's not hard to see
why I wanted to be a soldier from the time I
had memories. And I mean, there was there was
no other alternative, you know, like, first of
all, I didn't really have the money to take the
SAT when I was in high school. And I didn't really
care anyways, because I knew I was just going
to enlist in the army. So I went straight in,
unassigned airborne infantry contract. It was
hysterical too at the front door. As you said,
they make you take a test. It's called like the
ASVAB and the, I think it's Armed Services Vocational
Aptitude Battery. And so it kind of tells you
what your aptitude is for. And there's a portion
of it called the general technical score. And
the GT score is essentially comparable to your
IQ. And they said to me, this is great. You have
a high enough GT score. You can do whatever you
want. I was like, sweet. I'll take infantry.
And they're like, no, no, no. Let's start over.
This is great. You can do whatever you want.
I said, I want to be in the infantry. I want
to close with and destroy the enemies of our
country. I want to be a door kicker. I want to
get at it. When I was in basic training back
in that time, it was called Fort Benning, Georgia.
It's now called Fort Moore. But when you're in
that moment, you have your basic training, which
I think was eight weeks in my time, and then
your advanced individual training to be essentially
like a grunt, which was like three weeks. So
11 weeks total, one station unit training. And
it's funny you ask about the leadership experience
because... You know, I get there and the first
thing that happens is that they made me the platoon
guide, which is like the leader of the platoon,
the student leader of the platoon of 40 trainees.
And these these jokers made me the platoon guide
the entire time. So I was the guy for the whole
time. I'm like, what the hell? Like, so I'm trying
to like go through learning my stuff while also
trying to. be a peer leader. And it was, it was
an interesting learning experience. The drill
sergeants that I had were just like, no joke,
relentless. I mean, they put the wood to us.
It was, it was not easy. Wasn't easy for me,
at least I will say. And we had a guy, a drill
sergeant joined kind of late cycle. His name
was Sergeant Coronado. I'll never forget him.
And he had been in the third ranger battalion.
And he says to me, you know what, young, you
know what you should do? You should go be a ranger.
That's where you need to be. And I was like,
well, I mean, yeah, I'd love to do that. But,
you know, like, don't you have to be like a sergeant
or something? He's like, no, what are you talking
about? You can volunteer to be a ranger in airborne
school. I'm like, really? So I volunteered to
be a ranger in airborne school. I ended up getting
to go into the ranger indoctrination program,
which was our assessment and selection. You know,
we're basically just going to ring you out and
smash you against the wall for three weeks. And
if you can, you know, if you're if you're anyone
left standing can be a ranger. And I mean, I
had like you don't talk about leadership like
these. NCOs in the ranger regiment was it was
like nothing I had ever seen before. I mean,
they were they were strong, fast, smart, quick.
Uh, you know, they, they were so impressive,
um, that, I mean, guys like Jay Hall and, uh,
Rich Thompson. I mean, I was just like Jules
Blum. I mean, it was incredible. I was like,
I'm just holding on for dear life, just trying
to earn my way into this community because I
want to be the best. And these guys are clearly
the best. So I want to be one of them. Did I
read in your book that you ran a two mile in
just over 10 minutes? 10 .05. That's my fastest
two mile time. Were you a track athlete before?
Because my son was doing track and he had a sub
five one mile. So I understand how much faster
he is than my old ass now. I've been running
with him before and what that would take to do
a sub or basically a 10 minute two mile. No,
I grew up as a footballer and I ran angry. And
by footballer, I mean a soccer player. Yeah,
real football. A real footballer. You know, game
recognized game, James. I'm just... Yeah, I was
a center mid. So I've been fast my whole life.
And yeah, I used to be really fast. With that
lens, let's take another tangent for a second.
I've had... conversations with a few strength
and conditioning coaches and nutritionists recently
and i had a kind of aha moment when i talked
to the seals the sf guys you know i mean all
the the tier one elite performers um you know
when you have that that village around them they've
got strength conditioning coaches and nutritionists
and sports psychologists and all the things and
their goal is to squeeze out performance when
those same professionals are dealing with first
responders the conversation is, well, let's try
and get you not so fat. Let's try and get you
to not have a heart attack. And I realized how
far that chasm is between where we are and the
high level performance of, you know, some of
our operators. You've been exposed to, you know,
some firefighters, some law enforcement. With
the lens that you have at this elite athleticism
that you needed as a ranger, what is your perspective
of the first responder community? And how do
we put that bar up again? Because, I mean, arguably,
we should also be held to a similar standard,
in my opinion, in police and fire. Well, I mean,
I defer. I'd be out of my depth to suggest what
I think, but I defer to your perspective. And
I would agree with you in terms of performance.
I think that. I mean, look, if. If your job requires
you to be able to carry a load, climb up flights
of stairs while bringing up equipment, oxygen
tanks, the whole nine yards, and you are not
training to meet that level of performance, I
think that you are accepting a degree of liability
that is quite dangerous. I would suggest that,
you know, as a ranger, if I were to have accepted
that kind of lackadaisical approach to my fitness,
it would have been a dereliction of duty. Like
I would have been abdicating my duty. I wouldn't
have been able to stick around because the job
demands that you have that level of performance.
And, you know, I think that. You know, look,
if you're towing the line there, I would suggest
that it is in your best interest to make sure
that you can operate at peak performance. That
would, I mean, that's the flat out answer. I
mean, for me, I don't understand it, whether
you're, if you're a service member, because let's,
you know, let's not, let's not get too out of
balance here. There are plenty of service members
that do not make tape, so to speak. They're over
on the tape test. Their BMI is overextended.
That I will speak into. You need to change. I'll
speak into that right now. The very purpose of
the U .S. military is to defend the United States
and to close with and destroy the enemies of
our country. I'm sorry, but personal fitness.
It is readiness. And if you are not ready for
that, then, you know, hey, good opportunity to
do some reflection and take a small step in the
right direction that will lead to big changes.
That would be my hope for you. I can't see how
it would be beneficial in any uniform that you
wear it with any shield on your chest. If behind
that chest, you're carrying excess weight that
prohibits. your ability to perform. I can't see
that as, as a very wise way to go. Yeah. I think
a good parallel that I've had some guests that
do this, you know, if you think of a Hawaiian
lifeguard that can't swim, how well would that
go down? You know what I mean? I was a lifeguard
myself, not in the ocean and open water and pools.
And you have to requalify every two years. If
you can't do the towing and the swimming and
the underwater retrievals and all the other things,
you don't get your piece of paper. You're not
a lifeguard anymore. So just being asked to be
able to perform the tasks that you were expected
to do to pass as a firefighter in the academy
throughout your career is not a big ask. But
for some reason, my profession, there's been
a culture of fighting fitness standards. So a
lot of people literally will look back nostalgically
like, oh, I remember when I was in the academy,
I was really fit then. Well, our academy is named
minimum standards for a reason. That is the most
shit you should ever be in your entire fucking
career. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm 50. I get
aging. I feel aging. My body has been battered.
But if you are going to be out on the line wearing
the uniform, you still have to hold that bar,
that standard. And I would argue, hopefully,
as you get older, you become more efficient.
You don't have to be as strong and fast, but
you're still able to do it because you're better
at it now. Yeah. I mean, I'm not running 10 Oh
five, two miles anymore. You know, like I'm,
I'm, I'm in my mid forties right now. And at
some point in time, I had to do a little bit
of a mental shift from a performance to a wellness
mindset. And, you know, and, and I would say
what that means is that, you know, okay, so now
I'm not doing 30 mile road marches with a 65
pound pack on my back. Like, or I'm, I'm not,
I'm not running, rocking it till the wheels fall
off anymore. But I am well. I am still fit, strong,
fast. I have endurance. I have flexibility. I
eat well because I had to shift my mindset from
performance to wellness. But I would say that
if you're in a sedentary mindset, maybe you switch
from sedentary to wellness mindset first on your
march to performance. Let's not act like it's
not hard to change behavior, especially in a
culture where... There's like poison in our food,
for God's sakes. We don't make it easy on ourselves
right now to eat well, to live a well lifestyle,
to get the fitness in. But I mean, this doesn't
just stop with also the responder community.
This is, I think, larger than that. And we talked
to a lot of companies, a lot of leaders in a
lot of locations about what can you do to...
in place a culture of wellness and sustainability
in your company, right? I mean, because honestly,
James, like sitting in front of a computer screen
for 10 hours a day, that's not good for you either.
You know, like you mean to tell me we can't take
an hour midday, get up, walk around, go outside,
walk around, get a workout in, you know, like
get some time in. And the leaders that we have
spoken to. who are really employing this kind
of practice. And, you know, some of them are
in the fire services. We've had a chance to do
the Colorado Fire Leadership Series here last
year, which was freaking amazing. I can talk
about that in a moment here if you like. But,
you know, large multinational corporations in
finance sector, healthcare, all these different
things. It's like, come on, you mean to tell
me that we can't make it a priority to be well?
And when you do that, You extend the time horizon
of your personnel's effectiveness. It's no longer
the burn them down until you burn them out and
we'll just keep cycling through them. I mean,
look, take a big step back from all that. Let
me just ask this question. How's it working out
for us? Exactly. That's the mic drop moment right
there. People ask me for data. I'm like, I've
got 50 years of data. This is how you destroy
a firefighter. You know, work 56 hours, create
a recruitment crisis, now force people to work
overtime, you know, have a toxic leadership.
I mean, all these things will compound and you
will have a cancer, suicide, you know, addiction,
insert all the other things, crisis. So there's
your kind of, you know, pseudo null hypothesis,
you know, the equal and opposite. So if you fix
this and you do, and it's funny because I was
at Google HQ in London, I think it was like two
years ago now. Jim. Free, you know, the restaurant
was free as all kinds of healthy, healthy foods
there. They kind of controlled their own schedule.
I just posted something the other day in the
UK. Now, 200 companies have gone to a four day,
nine hour work week because they realize that
they get the same level of productivity. People
are being more innovative and efficient and they
got a happier, healthier workforce. So this is
what kind of makes me laugh is the fire service
sometimes will refer to themselves as a business.
And I always say, well, then why are you mirroring
an Indonesian sweatshop rather than the progressive
leaders in the corporate space? Yeah, I mean,
I think I think there's opportunity there to,
you know, model this out and test it in different
geographies. And then let's let's get it. Let's
get a sense of what that does. Right. You know,
like you don't have to. I can respect that this
must be a very large ship that has been moving
in a certain direction since I think you said
like the 80s, right? I get that. Fine. Can you
shrink it down? Can you look at it at a house
by house? Can you model this out? Can you test
it? Can we see what kind of results we're getting
from it so that we can then maybe secure good
results somewhere, learn from it, and then expand
to a little bit bigger? That would be my advice
if anyone was asking for it. Not that anyone
is, but it's not like things just change overnight.
And I respect that. But again, if it's not working
out for us, like we're going to have to do something
different. That's really the core of what we
talk to a lot of businesses about and leaders
about. And really why we wrote this book, Perseverance
is Greater Than Endurance, because. And eventually
we all reach the extent of our endurance. And
when we think about endurance, we think about
it in terms of, you know, kind of getting through
a defined period of hardship, right? It's a defined
hardship. You know, it's going to be difficult.
You kind of got to put your shoulder to the wheel
and you get through it. And you could think about
it kind of like a marathon in this way. So, you
know, when you sign up for a marathon, you know
the course. You know the map. You know you'll
have to hydrate. You know you have to get some
fuel in there. You know you'll probably hit a
wall at some point in there, but you'll get through
it. Your training will get you through it. The
way that you have prepared for it, the way that
you do it will get you through it. So in that
way, on a course from point A to point B, by
the time you get to point B, you're essentially
more tired version of who you were at point A.
Not the same with perseverance, right? By the
time you get to point B with perseverance, you
are not the same person who started the course
at point A. And in this way, you have grown.
You have changed to become the leader the situation
calls for, the person the circumstances call
for, because you've run all the plays already.
You've endured. You've held on. And it's not
working. You're not getting the result that you're
looking for. So you're going to have to transform
in order to achieve the goals that you have set
out for in order to be effective for the mission
that you're on. And in this way, we would call
perseverance greater than endurance. It's not
that endurance isn't valuable, but to me, it
sounds like there's an awful lot of folks out
there. that are enduring. They're just kind of
holding on. Well, this is always the way we've
done it. And this is the way that we're going
to do it. Well, I had to work a 54 hour week.
So then you're going to have to work a 54 hour
week. We'll go back in time. Well, I miss my
kid's birth. So you're going to have to miss
your kid's birth. Okay, great. Well, you know,
I guess I'll just leave. And I would guess that's
what's starting to happen. Right. And it's just
not working is the point like it's it's irrelevant
if if that's what worked back then it doesn't
work today is the point and and i think that
when you cultures that are excellent transform
over time a culture that is committed to excellence
that's committed to the mission committed to
the values of of the organization will transform
to meet the need that today has for that organization,
for those people, for that mission. And it's
not that like old is bad and new is good. It's
that old was good and relevant is good. And it
sounds to me like it's an opportunity to kind
of assess and maybe make some choices around
just transforming a little bit of this, because
we saw this a lot in COVID and that's kind of
where we ended up kind of coming out of this.
And we had some businesses that said, can you
help us? Maybe draw on some of your experiences,
how you guys had to lead in the war, because
we got to be honest with you. We've made the
hard choices. We've had the hard decision calls.
You know, we're kind of just holding on, hoping
that things, quote, go back to normal. And that's
just not that's not life. I'm sorry, but it's
not like there is no going back to normal. Time
always moves forward on the dial. Right. And
so the question really is, how will you transform
to meet the needs of the mission in the midst
of the hardship of the moment that you are in?
And that is really at the core of perseverance.
An analogy just popped in my head when you were
talking. Obviously, I'm familiar with your work,
and I want to parallel that on the mental health
side in a second. But I was thinking about Blockbuster
Video. The mission is to deliver. a movie to
the viewer. The way we used to do it was a VHS
tape that you tape that you went to a store,
took from a shelf, took home and put in your
machine. Well, we're not going to change. That's
the way we've always done it. We'll have that
work out for you. Now we're in the streaming
world. The mission is the same. You get a movie
to a viewer, but now it's streamed through a
device in your home onto your television. So
digging your heels in and refusing to change
the way you deliver your service. results in
collabs. That's right. And, you know, there's
the, there's the classic like business school
example of Netflix approaching Blockbuster. Blockbuster
video had the opportunity to purchase Netflix
for like, I think it was like $50 million or
something like that. And at the time, I believe
it was the time when Netflix would do like the,
they would mail you. like the DVD. Yeah, it was
like they would mail you the DVD and Blockbuster's
like, nah, you know, bah, I don't want none of
that. You know, people like to come to the store,
blah, blah, blah. How'd that work out for you?
You know, Blockbuster no longer exists. Netflix
is everywhere. Absolutely. Well, another interesting
parallel. I think this is a beautiful application
of what you're talking about as well. When I
think of our men and women that are struggling.
that have all these unaddressed elements, whether
it was their early life, whether it was their
service and they're leaning into the alcohol,
the gambling, the social media rants, whatever
their kind of outlet is, they're hanging on.
They're enduring. They're still going to work
every day. They're still putting their gear on
the rig. But again, that's not getting them anywhere.
Then you hear of these incredible stories, which
are, you know, frequent where someone has figured
out. That they're going to have to accumulate
a toolbox to work on the things that are beneath
the surface, the thing beneath the thing. And
then through EMDR and talk therapy and psychedelics
and canines and all these other things, they
have this post -traumatic growth. So they didn't
endure their mental health crisis. They persevered
the journey, including working on themselves
and came out the 2 .0 beautifully. more resilient
version of themselves on the other end. Yeah,
that's right. I mean, that's my story right there,
James, you know, in a nutshell. You know, like
I was holding on, you know, I went six years
with undiagnosed PTSD, right? And I remember
I went into the VA again, and it was kind of
like a teammate, Dana, you know, one of my...
teammates at Team Red, White, and Blue, which
is a veteran service organization that helps
to enrich veterans' lives by connecting them
to their community through physical and social
activity. So we did 50 ,000 events a year. I
was on the leadership team of that. Blaine was
our executive director. And we were out doing
an event, and my teammate Dana, who is a Navy
veteran, was like, hey, which VA clinic do you
go to to get your health care? I said, I don't
go to one. She said, what do you mean you don't
go to a VA clinic? I said, mom, I don't. I just
said, what's your disability status? I said,
I don't have one. She's like, wait, that's not
possible. You were in the army for 11 years and
you were a ranger and you have no coverage under
the VA. She said, I drove a ship for four years.
I'm like 30%. covered and I get all my healthcare
from the VA and it's great. And I'm like, oh,
okay. And she's like, you're going to go sit
down with a friend of mine. This is what I love
about like the, you know, I love, I love the
service industries, like the, the population,
because you'll have a teammate just put their
finger in your chest and say like, you're going
to go see somebody. And I'm just like, ah, you
know, whatever. But I did. And I, I went in the,
the gentleman was a, um, He was a veteran service
officer. These folks exist out there in the United
States that are designed to help you kind of
submit your claims and get all of your stuff
documented so that you can just get the health
care that you need, really, after serving. And
he was a retired Marine infantry officer. And
he sat down with me and he said. yeah, okay.
So I think we need to submit, you know, for PTSD
and, you know, obviously all the other musculoskeletal
stuff, but now it's like, ah, I don't have PTSD.
And he's like, okay. Uh, he's like, well, you
know, I think we might want to submit it. And
why don't you just let a, uh, um, psychiatrist
tell you if you do or don't. And I'm like, eh,
I don't really want to. You know, like I don't,
I even, I remember writing in my letter to the
VA, I don't have PTSD. And he said, I'll tell
you what, do me, do me a favor. I'm going to
send you home with two pieces of paper. And they're
the exact same thing. It was like this image
of a knight and the knight had all these lines
like off of different parts of it. So it was
like, um, off the shield, there was a line that
said hypervigilance. And then off of the sword,
there was a line and it said like hyper aggressive
and it had all of these different things, trouble
sleeping, you know, cognitive, blah, blah, blah,
all these different things. He said, I want you
to take this home and I'm gonna give you two
manila envelopes. I want you to circle the things
that you see in yourself. And I want you to give
this other one to Kelly. And I want you to have
her circle the things that she sees in you. And
then I want you to have her put it in the manila
envelope and you put yours in yours. And come
back and we'll sit down and we'll look at it
together. I said, okay. So I did the assignment.
I think I circled like four things. I think Kelly
circled almost all of them. And he just sat there
and he's like, brother, this is not normal. You
have a normal response to an abnormal set of
circumstances. And I think that we should probably
lean into it a little bit. Let's just get you
checked out. So I was like, all right, I'll get
checked out. I go in there. I start talking to
this, you know, psychiatrist. And, you know,
at the end of the whole thing, and the thing
is, James, is I told her the truth. It was the
first time I told one of these providers the
truth. The truth that I, you know, I haven't
slept through the night since I can remember.
burn my kids down to the ground at the smallest
drop of the hat for no reason. I am, you know,
hypervigilant. I, all these different things,
like I'm like a lit fuse all the time. And I
don't know how to stop. I can't stop. I can't
like figure it out. And she said, okay, so you
have PTSD. And I said, like, that's it. She said,
yeah, you were a ranger. You went to war four
times. Did you really think it was going to be
different? And I'm like, well, I mean, if you
put it that way, like, I mean, I guess no, but
I thought I would be different. I thought I could
punch my way through this. Like I've punched
my way through everything from the time that
I was a kid. And I started just crying, James.
Like I was just like weeping. And she's like,
hey. You also have had a number of traumatic
brain injuries that I knew that I had had, but
I had never declared it. And she said, we think
we can help. Let's try some stuff. And I'm like,
let me guess. This is where you're going to throw
me a bag of pills and gork me out on some shit.
And she's like, no, my first prescription for
you is yoga. I want you to start doing yoga.
And I'm like, yoga, like what? And, you know,
that was kind of the beginning of a next phase
of healing for me that was just really critical.
And I would just say that we got to start, we
got to start with ourselves. And I think we got
to start with each other. The fact that I had,
you know, other trusted brothers and sisters
who had experienced it and said like, hey, dude,
you're not like, it's not like you're like crazy.
You're not like a bad person. You're like normal
and you probably need some help. That helped.
And then the willingness to actually step in
and like cut the shit and be honest and say like,
I am not OK. I am not OK. Right. And I knew I
wasn't OK. I had had the suicidal ideations.
I had had all the stuff, but I was just like,
I'll stuff it down. I'll stuff it down. I'll
stuff it down. I'll compartmentalize it because
that's what we're trained to do. We're trained
into mastery of dissociation because you have
to. I mean, for God's sakes, the things that
you're experiencing out there, I mean, goodness
sakes, and the fire services, the fact, the trauma
that you guys are walking into every single day,
oh my goodness. You have to learn how to dissociate
it. That's fine. You cannot live in a dissociated
state and be well for the rest of your life.
It just doesn't work that way. You know, because
guess what? Like, you know, we all know the body
keeps the score, right? Your body is keeping
that score and feeling it. And so you're stuck
in this state of dissociation. You're stuck in
a state where your sympathetic nervous system
is completely activated at all times. Your, you
know, your limbic system is hijacked. Yeah, there's
no wonder you can't work your way out of it because
you literally cannot get into your prefrontal
cortex because you're already in that limbic
part of space of your brain. How long are you
going to go with that? I mean, shoot, I went
most of my life with that. And I can tell you
that I paid the price for it. And so did the
people that I love the most. You mentioned suicide
ideation. This is something I try and... kind
of just just ask people basically anyone who's
been there the reason behind it when we were
young we were told that suicide was cowardly
and selfish and how could they think of your
wife and your kids and then you hear hundreds
of stories of people that were right there and
didn't or some of whom went through it and survived
it and more almost every single one of them when
they actually were at that point There was a
true belief. Their reality had solidified the
fact that they were the reason for their family's
pain. And if they just remove themselves from
the equation, their wife, their kids would be
happier. Makes no sense to a healthy brain. Makes
complete sense to someone who, through the perfect
storm of all these contributing factors, has
found themselves in a distorted state. When you
think back now, was that the voice whispering
in your ear as well? I think for me, what I felt
more than anything is that I just wanted the
pain to stop. I just didn't want to hurt anymore.
And that little voice was certainly working on
me in all of that. And, you know, sadly, the
first time I remember coming to that conclusion.
was when I was 11. That's the first time I can
remember contemplating, I think I'd like, I think
I'd like to no longer be here anymore. I think
I'd like to end my life. And I think that what,
what we see is, you know, loss of perspective,
loss of hope, you know, can't kind of see your
way out of that darkness. And that small voice
that says those things like, There is evil in
creation. There is evil in the world. And that
evil, you know, unfortunately, I think based
on the, you know, the service professions, uniformed
folks, unfortunately, we have confronted that
evil face to face. We have seen, you know, that
corruption, the corruption of what was intended
to be good, you know, in creation around us,
you know, human beings, people. um cultures uh
settings like we have seen that darkness and
i think a lot of times it feels like you know
you you you touch that darkness so many times
that it feels like it starts to stick to you
you know and and and it's and it starts to cover
you and i think that that voice starts to tell
you you know that's who you are you're worthless
you're You're no better than any, you know, of
the darkness that you have walked through or
that you have experienced. You know, you are
the darkness. And that is a lie from the pit
of hell. That is a lie. And I have seen friends
succumb to that lie who are no longer with us.
And I have seen friends who have bought that
lie, made the attempt and, you know, thanks be
to God, have survived on the other side of it.
Um, but that common denominator is that I think
we buy the lie. Uh, we buy the lie and it is,
it is not true. You know, you were meant to be
loved. You were created to be loved. That's the
truth. And all this nastiness that we experience
in war or, you know, the, the war that is unfolding
in our communities, the trauma that is everywhere.
Um, we all feel whatever your Whatever your spiritual
perspective is on reality, I think a common experience
is that we all feel like something is just not
right here. This is just not right. This is not
how it should be. Our children should not be.
experiencing these things, like the calls that
you guys go on, like we should not be seeing
this in the neighbor's house next door. Good
God, what is happening? Something is not quite
right here. And I think that that just like it
compounds and, you know, it sticks to us. And
I think that doing the work to kind of reframe
and to regain some perspective and to get a little
bit of distance from the heart distance from
that. It's just so critical because otherwise
I think we lose hope, we lose perspective, and
then we end up losing our brothers and sisters
who we love so dearly. And it doesn't get better.
It does not get better for the family that is
left behind. It doesn't get better for any of
us who are left behind. No, exactly. This is
what breaks my heart, too, when you see the deliberate
division. whether it's news stations, politicians,
whatever it is, is that's just creating more
and more of an environment for this suffering,
for this arguably moral injury. And even myself,
on this pursuit to try and save first responder
lives, there's a moral injury element to the
resistance, to the apathy of action. I mean,
all these contributing factors, when you really
are a servant, when you've got that kind of humanity
burning in your soul, people just don't see that
there are changes for the suffering whether it's
like you said domestic or sexual abuse behind
closed doors whether it's disruption of families
through horrendous mismanagement of a fire department
you know whatever it is that takes its toll as
well you know and the number of people that i've
heard from the first responder professions that
have seen some horrible shit But it was actually
the organizational betrayal, the toxic culture
and where they worked that was the most detrimental
to their mental health. That's right. Yeah. I
am so appreciative of you bringing moral injury
into this discussion because this was something
that I focused on a lot. When I was getting my
Masters of Divinity at Denver Seminary on the
topic of moral injury, because it is uniquely
different from post -traumatic stress disorder.
And, you know, like the VA doesn't really have
a category for this. Like this is kind of one
of the issues in my community. I think it's very
comparable. I think it's happening in both communities.
Let me just say that. And if I'm reaching too
far in that, then please let me know. No, you're
right. But I think moral injury, we've got to
start addressing this and talking about it as
well, because, you know, as human beings, we
are mind, body and soul, right? You break a bone,
you go to the doctor, you get that fixed. You
experience a traumatic event and you're, you
know, you're re -experiencing your trauma in
there. You go to a therapist, you go get some
EMDR, you address it, right? What happens when
you sustain an injury to the soul? Where are
you going with that? And that is moral injury.
And that is where I think this is where the chaplains
out there, the spiritual providers that are out
there, we have a place in that to be able to
kind of speak into and approach this idea of
moral injury, because moral injury is an injury
sustained upon the soul where You have committed
an act that has been in violation of your moral
compass. An act that violates your moral compass,
your values, has been cast upon you. Or you no
longer, because of the things that you have experienced,
whether it be maybe a combination of one or two,
have experienced a wound upon your soul where
you no longer trust. That others will operate
in a moral manner or in a manner that is in keeping
with your values around you. Like these are kind
of categorically aspects of moral injury. And
we've got to kind of deal with that as well,
because that I would say that was a big part
of my woundedness that I did not really I didn't
really approach. until much later in my healing
journey. I wasn't ready for it, you know, but,
but, and I'll tell you, you know, violation of
your own principles. Here's the truth. I deployed
to Afghanistan the first time. It wasn't even
a question for me. I knew Kelly was pregnant.
You know, whether I did or did not have a choice
in that, it didn't really matter. I will tell
you the exact conversation that went down. My
platoon sergeant met me in the hallway and said,
we're going and we need you. And I said, I'm
there. I'm going. It didn't take a second. And
in that second, I made a choice that in some
way violated my. moral compass, my code of ethic.
And then I exacerbated that by going home and
Kelly, who was waiting on pins and needles, you
know, at this point in time about to pop, right?
Are you going to be around for the birth? Are
you this and that? And I lied to her, bold face
to her, lied to her. Nope. They're sending me.
There's nothing I can do. And I hid that lie.
For 15 years. And I lied to her and I made her
think that, you know, this is this is the way
it was. And I lied to my kids. And that was an
injury that I had sustained on my soul because
I had violated my values. And I dealt with it.
And I think that that's part of what happens
out there is I hit it. I didn't deal with it.
I hit it. Right. And a big part of addressing
moral injury is bringing into the light that
which is hiding in the darkness. And that lie,
you know, was hiding in the darkness between
my wife and I for years. It wasn't the only one
hiding in the darkness, but it was one of them.
And the bitterness that kind of kept building
this wall between us, you know, I tell people
like we really did lose our first marriage. You
know, we didn't file the paperwork, but, you
know, we screwed it up. And we had so much deception
and lies built up between us. In 2018, we were
invited to help our church start a marriage ministry.
And we're like, okay, sure, we'll do this thing.
We're fantastic, whatever, hubris. And we go
down to the training for this. It's called Re
-Engage. They train in Dallas, Texas at a church
called Watermark. And I'm there for like 30 minutes
and this woman is telling this story and she's
like confessing these. transgressions that she
has done. And I'm just like, I got to get the
hell out of here. You know, like I want nothing
to do with this. And what that led to is that
Kelly and I sat down after 17 years of marriage
and told each other the real story. And we, we
confessed, we, you know, confess to God, confess
to each other. We asked God for forgiveness.
We asked each other for forgiveness. And that
is a choice. That is a choice right there. You
can grant forgiveness or you cannot grant forgiveness.
That's a choice. That's up to you. We chose to
grant one another forgiveness. And later that
year, I felt compelled. I felt like God had put
it on my heart to ask her to marry me again.
And we got married in the church that we gave
our lives to Christ in. And our son and our daughter
were standing there by our sides as best man
and maid of honor. All I can say is that, you
know, God has resurrected what we could not do
on our own. And a big part of that was wrestling
with the damage, you know, that we had done upon
our souls and that was done upon us. It wasn't
just us, you know, like and making the choice
to kind of put that into the light and zero out
the debt. Right. And I would just submit that,
you know. Look, if you're running, you know,
stop running, face it, you know, and I'm not
saying it's easy. I'm not saying you have to
do it alone, you know, but face some of those
injuries that are compounded upon your heart
and know that you're not alone in doing that.
You don't have to be alone in doing that. And
I think that that really starts to lead to that
transformation, that growth that's on the other
side. of adversity when you truly persevere.
Or you know what? You could just keep suffering.
You know, you could just keep surviving. That's
an option. It is an option. I don't think it's
the best option. I can tell you I've tried it.
You know, I did that well, right? You know, I've
gone the distance in that. And yeah, you can
hang on and survive. But I would suggest that
it might be better to thrive. It might be better
to persevere, to surrender some of those things
that you're holding on to that you don't have
to hold on to anymore. And you certainly don't
have to hold on to alone. Absolutely. Well, that's
a good segue. So let's talk about the book specifically
now. How did you meet Blaine? And then ultimately,
how did you guys decide to create this book?
Blaine and I met. at a national sales meeting
for a large healthcare organization that we were
working for, Quest Diagnostics, in 2010. So we
had both spent parallel tracks in the Army. He
went to West Point, though, was commissioned
as an officer, served in Iraq in the Cav, and
then was a Green Beret and served in Afghanistan.
My path was straight in and listed right out
of high school. Spent nine years in the Ranger
Regiment, 11 years total in the military. And
so we had these parallel tracks and we both got
out of the military at about the same time. Both
of us looking to look, be normal people, I guess,
put our families back together from what they
had experienced. And so we met at a national
sales meeting and we're kind of like, oh, you
know, these are my people right here. developed
a friendship. We then worked together. Blaine
left that organization, became the first employee
of Team Red, White and Blue, first executive
director. And like a couple of years later, and
this was after I had become a Christian and started
was really walking in my Christian faith. And
I was like, yeah, you know, it's great. I'm like
leading this sales district and all this kind
of stuff and making great money. But I don't
really feel like I'm doing what I'm supposed
to be doing anymore. I kind of come to the conclusion
that I was going to make a change. Again, we
talked about this chasing the achievements. I
was chasing the achievements, top of the stack
rankings, got a leadership position early. And
it was always kind of like, why isn't this guy
happy? He's got it all. And it's like, well,
I wasn't happy because I was miserable inside.
And Blaine calls me up and he's just like, hey,
man, what do you think about coming over and
helping us do revenue development? We think we're
onto something here. And I'm like, dude, I don't
know anything about nonprofit. But Blaine's a
hell of a salesman. He got me to make the jump
with a 60 % pay cut. And we did some amazing
things. When we left that organization three
and a half years later, we had 150 ,000 members
operating in over 200 cities across the United
States. We had operated against something we
called the enrichment equation, which is health,
people, and purpose. You need to have a rich
life. You need to have physical health, mental
health, social health, spiritual health. You
need to have genuine relationships, a sense of
engaged citizenship. You need to have a sense
of purpose. And we helped veterans regain that
after leaving the service. And it's amazing how
we saw that really blossom and those really rich
lives emerge. We went our separate ways and then
kind of came back together. In the end of 2019,
he and I just kind of connected and started a
conversation. One conversation turned into many
conversations. I had started grad school at Denver
Seminary. He was kind of doing consulting a little
bit here and there and said, I'm kind of just
going to not do this anymore because I don't
really want to be just out here on my own. I'm
like, oh, that's cool. It sounds like an intriguing
thing to get into, leadership development. We're
both kind of students of the craft. That turned
into me flying down to Tampa and spending three
days around a whiteboard with some seriously
supercharged quad coffees and turned into us
launching our company, Applied Leadership Partners.
And we really focus on sharing hard earned leadership
wisdom with leaders in a host of different environments,
but leaders who are hungry to. improve their
effectiveness, create tighter teams, and create
teams that can really operate for the long haul
in a host of missions that really matter, missions
that matter most out there in the world. And
it was really funny, James, because we started
our company in March of 2020, and three days
later, the world shut down for COVID. And so
we're like, well, hell, what do we do now? You
know, this is kind of the first time that as
to barrel -chested freedom fighters, so to speak,
were on the sidelines of American crisis, while
our wives were right there on the front lines.
So my wife at the time was, she's a nurse, and
she was in the emergency room of our local hospital
emergency department. Blaine's wife is an intelligence
professional, and she was working at SOCOM at
the time. And so they were both kind of in it
and we're on the sidelines like, well, what do
we do? And so we just started hanging free advising
sessions who said like, you know, look, you know,
whatever you're doing right now, wherever you
are, you know, like. If we can help you, let
us know. And so we do these 60 -minute whiteboard
sessions. James, we talk to people everywhere.
We talk to first responders. We talk to government
officials, people in nonprofit, people in healthcare,
people in insurance, finance, teachers, you name
it, we talk to them. And it was really cool.
And we were kind of just like plodding along,
persevering, doing, you know, pivoting as best
as we could. And then come the fall of 2020,
when things were still kind of like, oh, we're
really not going to wave a magic wand and go
back to normal. We had some really larger organizations
call on us and say, can you help us? And we really
started. That's where around a whiteboard, Blaine
and I started to, after all those conversations
and working with some of these organizations.
Some in the healthcare space, some more in the
local government and special districts space.
What we started to see was the same common through
line, which was leaders were holding on. They
were enduring. They were projecting out false
finish lines as to when things would, quote,
go back to normal. And every time they surpassed
another one of those false finish lines, their
heart would break just a little bit more. And
there were more cracks would be exposed in the
organization's cracks that frankly were not created
as much by crisis, but were exposed by crisis
because they were already pre -existing. Right.
And so we started to think through it and say,
oh, wait a minute. What's happening here is that
people are just trying to like embrace the suck
and endure. And what they need to do is they
need to actually persevere. They need to accept
that what they are experiencing is replete with
uncertainty and make some choices to actually
grow in a different direction as opposed to holding
on. They need to move on and grow. And we said,
where have we seen that in our lives? Oh, you
know, Bing, Special Forces Assessment and Selection,
Ranger Assessment and Selection. you know nobody's
just kind of holding on white knuckling it through
that you got to actually figure out how to transform
in the midst of that you know bing you know moments
in afghanistan moments in the war like there
was no way that we got through that moments even
at team red white and blue when we were leading
this large distributed organization and we were
trying to focus on the mission There's no way,
there's no straight line to the top. There's
no straight line to the summit. You had to take
the lumps, the ups and the downs. And that's
where this idea of perseverance being greater
than endurance emerged. And we started sharing
that with leaders and helping them kind of navigate
their organizations through that. And it was
kind of like light bulbs were going on and people
were saying like, oh my gosh, like, thank you.
Thank you for framing this in a way that we could
understand it. And just simply, I'll share what
we have perceived as the five factors of perseverance,
which are change, uncertainty, acceptance, choice,
and growth. It starts with change. Things come
at you fast and often and often without warning.
That brings about uncertainty. Uncertainty piques
a base human feeling, which is fear. Fear becomes
the friction that holds us in place and either
purpose or pain will make us move off that mark.
We will either run toward our purpose or we will
run from our pain and capitulate and make these
small concessions one by one. But we get to acceptance
where we accept what we can control and what
we cannot control. We shrink the world down to
one next good decision we can make at a time
and we make the choice. And this is really. The
crucible in the midst of all of the perseverance
is choice. You must choose to become the creeds,
the values, the ethos, all the things that you
say that you are. You get to choose to become
that in those moments of adversity. And that
is when growth comes on the other side. That
is the perseverance payoff. Because not only
do you achieve, but you become the kind of person
who knows how to achieve, who knows how to persevere
through adversity. Because guess what? There's
going to be more change and uncertainty on the
horizon. And there's going to be more opportunities
for you to persevere because guess what? That
is what life actually is all about. Life is all
about ups and downs. There are no escalators
to our goals. I love that. And when I'm thinking
about the stumbling block, I'm assuming it's
choice. Choice is really that crossroads where
you choose to be cowardly or courageous. to do
the right thing, that moral courage. Because
up to that point, you know, the events have happened,
but you do get to make a choice. And like you
said, if it's out of your control, ultimately,
then that's going to send it one way. But I think
there's a complete underestimation of how much
power someone making a decision actually has
if they just dive into it. I see so much energy
put into justifying doing nothing, rather than
actually saying, How do we fix this? Yeah, that's
right. I mean, that's that dichotomy of control,
right? That's that, you know, you have agency
to how you respond to the world around you. You
can't control the world around you. You can control
how you respond to the world around you. That
is a choice that you can make. And we talk often
about discipline. as a really key part of this.
And what we would simply say about discipline
is that discipline is doing what is good instead
of doing what feels good often. It is extending
the time horizon and actually making that hard
choice, that hard right over the easy wrong.
Something that I think tacks on to what you're
saying in terms of moral courage. You know, we
we we use an example in the book we we illustrated
in the book by a story that we we talk about
called 3 a .m. in the patrol base. Right. And
so Ranger School is the U .S. military's premier
combat leadership development course. And what
they do is they they put you through three phases
that unfold over 61 days. And you are constantly
cycled through leadership positions, which you
are graded on where you either get a go or a
no go. You either accomplish the mission or you
didn't. And the two major levers that they use
to replicate the rigors of combat are starvation
and sleep deprivation. And so exacerbated by
constant. You're constantly moving. And when
you're not moving, you are in what is called
a patrol base. And the patrol base is kind of
like a security posture. It's also known as kind
of the iron triangle where you refit and reorient
towards your next mission. It's where you can
get some fellas on their necks, as we would say,
get them a little sleep. Fellas and ladies, get
them a little sleep, get them some nourishment.
um and re -plan and the thing about it is is
that you've already been moving like 18 hours
a day right um by the time you get to the patrol
base The games really begin because that's even
yet another graded position. You got to make
sure that security is maintained. You have to
make sure that you work through the priorities
of work. You have to call up your position to
command. You have to mission plan for the next
thing. So really what I'm saying is you're really
not going to get any sleep is actually the truth.
And we talk about this. It is a crucible moment
within that entire arc of adversity. Because
at 3 a .m. in the patrol base, when you are the
patrol leader or you are in a leadership position
in ranger school, the very last thing that you
want to do is the next thing that you need to
do. And that is get your ass up. Go check on
the positions. Make sure security is still maintained.
Make sure that the machine guns are manned. Make
sure that people aren't falling asleep on the
line because they are. They will be falling asleep
on the line. Make sure that everything is getting
done. And I am here to tell you that the very
last thing that you want to do at 3 a .m. in
the patrol base is get your ass up and do that.
You want to lay on your ruck and catch some rack.
Well, you know what? You could do that, leader.
You're not going to get a go. You're not going
to accomplish your mission. So what are you going
to do? You know, it's, it's the choice and drawing
in on that discipline. Like I want so badly right
now to go to sleep. And I'm here to tell you,
James, I am a massive drone. Do you guys use
the word drone in your community where you're
falling asleep on your, it's like, it's like
you're falling asleep, standing up, hallucinating
all that. No, we're normally falling asleep behind
the wheel of a moving rescue vehicle. So it's
got a different name. Like a complete fucking
liability basically is what we are. So we call
it droning. And it's a term basically suggesting
that you're falling asleep on your feet, which
happens. It literally happens. You know, you
fall asleep standing up. I've done it many times.
I've fallen asleep behind the wheel and wrecked
a car. All of these things, right? And so. exercising
that discipline is really kind of where it's
at. And it is choosing to do what is good instead
of what feels good. Kind of like getting up in
the morning at 5 a .m. and getting your workout
in. Doesn't really feel good a lot of times,
but you know what? It is good. Absolutely. Well,
I want to hit one more area and then go to some
closing questions. You touched on working with
first responders in Colorado. So let's talk about
that. Yeah, we were hired to do the Colorado
Fire Leadership Series. Chief TJ Steck of the
Elizabeth Fire District here in Colorado is a
small, I think they might have maybe 30 firefighters
and probably a bit of some volunteer folks as
well. And Chief Steck, who is just an incredible
guy, really looked at it and said, how can we...
invest in fire leaders across the state of Colorado
who can't afford leadership development. And
so he was able to secure a Google grant, which
was really incredible. And what we did is we
did a series where we hosted 90 -minute leadership
development sessions with follow -on Q &A and
really engaging. with fire leaders across the
state. And it was amazing, James. We had fire
leaders from, I think we had 200 some odd districts
represented. Some of them only had one employee.
Many of them were volunteer firefighters, just
across the whole spectrum. And it ended up expanding
throughout the Rocky Mountain region. We had
people calling in from Wyoming, Montana. We had
people calling in from California. It was awesome.
And what we did is we What we do as an organization
is we come alongside organizations and find out
what are you guys facing right now? What can
we help you navigate through? Because in the
end of the day, it's not for me to tell any organization
what they need. It's for you to tell us what
you need. And then for us to be able to come
alongside you and share some of those. lessons.
And the way that we often do our leadership development
is that we present modules and modules are topical.
Some of them are a little bit more nuanced, like
leading through uncertainty, where we talk a
lot about this perseverance is greater than endurance.
Some of them are far more practical, like empowerment
and accountability and difficult conversations.
Like how do you actually know shit, have a difficult
conversation that leads to alignment. right that
leads to mission effectiveness and so those were
some of the modules that we did with the colorado
fire leadership series and man it was it was
a real honor for us to invest in the first responder
community in that way and we're just so thankful
to chief stack for giving us that opportunity
and you know hope to do it further on into the
future what attributes are you seeing in these
leaders that are seeking change, that are truly
trying to do the best for their organization?
I would say the willingness to imagine a different
approach. And I would say then making the choice
to act upon that. I really give... TJ, a lot
of credit. He's become a friend. I give him a
lot of credit because he is a chief in a community
where it seems, based on what you're saying,
James, is that there's maybe some stuck thinking.
We're a little bit stuck in some paradigms that
may or may not be working. And I think some of
the characteristics are the willingness to imagine
a vision of a better future, the willingness
to ask for help, the willingness to look into
other sectors or communities that have actually
gone through some of this. When we were first
engaging with fire leaders, and it wasn't just
TJ, I mean, he brought in other chiefs and really
had the calls with us and we sat down and really
talked to them. And the truth is, is that there
was a lot of commonality there. You know, one
of the things that we one of the modules we did
is our module on wellness and sustainability.
And we talked about, you know, health, people
and purpose. We talked about identity asymmetry.
We talked about, you know, the the seduction
of busyness and the balance fallacy and all of
these barriers and talked about like, look, you
know, if we want if we want to be resilient,
we want to truly be effective on the job. We've
got to do it for the long haul. We need to be
well. We need to talk about, you know, emotional
health. We need to talk about physical health.
We need to invest in our teammates and give them
the opportunity to be well. We need to commit
to that together. And what we were able to do
is bring the lessons learned that we had gotten
from working with hundreds of thousands of veterans,
literally. across the United States and say like,
no, we get it. Like it's, this is something we've
seen. Like you're, you're dealing with, you know,
trauma population, high intensity environment.
I'm here to tell you this will make you more
effective. you know, on the next fire, on the
next call, and it's going to make you more effective
for the long haul. And so the willingness for
those leaders to listen to another perspective
from outside the fire service, I think that that
was a real, you know, force multiplier. And,
you know, I guess I will use the word that you
used before, the courage to actually take a step
and actually do something about it. I think those
were some of the key characteristics. And then
monitor, what did you get from it? you know,
what's the feedback loop. And, you know, TJ and
I actually just sat down for lunch a couple of
weeks ago. And he's like, dude, the feedback
is incredible. It's like, we, we, we get, this
is the most requested, most watched, most engaged
topics that you guys did because, you know, like
our, our responders and our firefighters are
really resonating with what you have to say.
And we're giving people tools. to actually take
a step with it. And that's, that's key to our
business. You know, it's key to the way that
we go about it. Like, um, the reason we're called
applied leadership partners is because we actually
want people to apply it in their real life. I
mean, I could sit here and tell you a story about
being a Ranger in Afghanistan, 2003. I'm not
telling you that story so that you can be a Ranger
in Afghanistan in 2003. Obviously we're not going
back to that. What I do is I is and what Blaine
and I do is we we tell those stories to open
up new windows into old truths. And an old truth
here is that if you rocket until the wheels fall
off, guess what? The wheels will eventually fall
off and you will no longer be able to rocket.
You know, you will effectively work yourself
out of the game by pummeling yourself into the
ground. But if you approach it, you know, like
any of these elite athletes, like a ranger or
a green beret or a seal or any of these others
that we've talked about here, and you recognize
the fact that like you have to build in resilience
for the long haul, you have to be more anti -fragile.
And the way that you do that is increase your
physical readiness, increase your mental and
emotional readiness, increase your spiritual
readiness, have trusted relationships that you
can really count on, have a sense of purpose
that will be. you know, that transcendent mission
that you can call on as you're in the midst of
the moments of hardship, you can start to really
stitch together effectiveness for the long haul.
And I would just say it was it was the willingness
to actually try that that has yielded great results
in the Colorado Fire Leadership Series and one
that, you know, again, it was an honor for us
and a real blessing. And we would do a thousand
times over. Brilliant. That sounds incredible.
And there's so much I think people can pull from
just that one, you know, overview of what you
did with that group. Shifting to the closing
question so I can be mindful of your time. The
first one I love to ask, is there a book or are
there books that you love to recommend? It can
be related to our discussion today or completely
unrelated. The first two books that I always
recommend is Romans and James. The second one's
got a great title. Yeah, those have been really
instrumental in my growth and in my perspective
as a leader. Another book that I would tell you
is just like it is fire is Team of Teams by General
Stanley McChrystal. really, really thoughtful
way to understand how to kind of knit together
these teams in these asymmetrical environments.
I think he does a really good job at unpacking
the difference between complication and complexity,
and then really showing how you can create some
more effective teams. Brilliant. What about films
and documentaries? Well, I mean, I would be hard
pressed not to say that you can't find a better
film than Rocky IV. I mean, that's clearly the
greatest film ever created. But, let's see, documentaries,
that's... What is the one that, I mean, if you
want to watch a documentary that'll just make
your hands sweat, what is it, The Dawn Wall?
Oh, yes. Is that what it's called? You're probably
thinking of Free Solo. Free Solo. Yeah. Watch
Free Solo if you really want to watch a documentary
that'll make your hands sweat. Another one that
I found just so fascinating was The Last Dance,
the documentary that covers the Jordan -era bulls.
That was fascinating because you... You really
got to see a little bit of an inside. And for
a figure that is just so like, I mean, talk about
a relentless competitor and achiever, you know,
and Michael Jordan. You really get the sense
that you understand that he had to do some changing.
He had to do some persevering. He had to do some
growing to really become the person, the leader
that that team needed. You know, he didn't do
it alone either. That was the other massive thing.
You know, you look at the cast around, you know,
Scotty Pippen, for God's sakes, amazing, you
know, or Horace Grant, like all this team, Phil
Jackson, this group around. I mean, it really
lets you know that, and Blaine and I say this
all the time, perseverance is an endeavor best
not to be done alone. Perseverance is best done
together. Absolutely. All right. Well, then the
next question, is there a person that you recommend
to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to
the first responders, military and associated
professions of the world? Blaine Smith. He's
already scheduled. Is there anyone else? Vince
Vargas. Oh, he's coming on too. So yeah, you
made that connection. Two amazing people. Vince
Vargas has a really unique perspective. So this
is a man who was a ranger. This is a man who
was a border patrol officer. He also served on
BORTAC, which is their special operations responder
organization. I think that your audience, any
responder military. I think people really enjoy
listening to Vince speak because he's just got
so many fascinating perspectives out there. And
he's also talking, he's kind of cutting the shit
on a topic that people, it's kind of floating
around in the ether, like immigration and the
border and all this kind of stuff. And what I
really love about Vince is that he's actually,
he's got an informed perspective and he can tell
you kind of some ground reality on that stuff
while also sharing in the experience of being.
you know, right there on the line. And this is
exactly what this podcast is about. Like I've
had, you know, Iraqi commandos on, I've had Afghan,
you know, members of the former Mushahideen turned,
you know, Afghan allies and just all kinds of
people, you know, doctors that have been to Gaza.
I mean, people that are actually boots on the
ground because CNN and Fox are going to feed
you their skewed version, you know? So I love
it when you actually speak to someone, okay,
you were at the border. You were seeing the families
that are just fleeing and looking for a better
life. And you're seeing the shitbags are trying
to get over our border and the nuances. So I
can't wait to speak to him because the more layers
we have just on this podcast alone, the more
I think people understand what's actually happening,
whether it's through a firefighter's eyes or
border patrol. Yeah. Yeah, he'd be a great guest.
The other one, you know, something that just
popped into my mind and I haven't spoken to them.
You're actually just reminding me that I need
to reach out. Have you ever heard of an organization
over in the UK called UOK Doc? I have not. Very
interesting. They're called UOK Doc as in, hey,
you OK, Doc? And they actually asked me to come
and speak during COVID. time frame. Obviously,
what responders and medics were experiencing
in COVID, I mean, again, my wife was on the front
lines of that. God bless her. She did two mission
trips in addition to that. She's freaking amazing
to go offer relief to a sister hospital in Tampa.
She also did another mission trip down to the
Dominican Republic in the midst of all of that.
They asked me to come speak. They were really
focusing on, you know, medic wellness, health
and wellness and really, you know, like, are
you OK? Because many of us were not. Many of
them were not. So that's another one to check
out. That reminds me I got to reach out to them
and say hello. Yeah, no, that's an interesting
one. I'd love to talk to them because I had a
conversation with. I forget who it was now, but
it was someone in the UK. And we were talking
about, I think it was during the pandemic. I
added another episode every week to put good
information out there, actionable information.
What are people seeing? Yes, this is a real virus.
Yes, there are some hotspots. No, these giant
morgues that were made here were never even touched
or used. Just getting the whole landscape of
what was going on. But one of them said, one
of the most disappointing things was... In the
UK, everyone would come out at five o 'clock
and they'd clap. And he said, that's all well
and good, but it didn't give us any more staffing,
didn't give us any more beds, didn't give us
any more PPE, but it put all the responsibility
on the responder. And then you talk about moral
injury, all the men and women on the front line.
Fast forward a year, if you didn't take a vaccine,
you were a murderer. So you talk about moral
injury for those responders and organizational
betrayal. you know, a vaccine that ultimately
we all know now had a kind of flip of a coin
efficacy anyway. So certainly not justifiable
to terminate a loyal, you know, member of your
community. So what they went through, not only
what they saw, but the change in landscape and
the fricking rug being pulled from under some
of them. I mean, we need to, we need to really
honor that generation of responders and medical
personnel and all the other people that supported
us. 100%. I mean, a hundred percent, you know,
like I, I, I saw it from the sidelines as the
husband of a, of a ED nurse. And, you know, it's
like, it's all well and good, you know, thanks
for clapping at me, but I just, you know, had
to, had to see, you know, three people die today.
And, you know, the, the, the, you know, I should
have this, I should have that. And it's just
like, you know, I don't know. Maybe, maybe not.
I'm not sure. You know, talk about like massive
uncertainty. And, you know, just because you
mentioned it, I know we're closing up our time
here, but I will tell you. One of the one of
the very one of the things that most veterans
usually aren't super stoked about. And I can
tell you, like, I'm one of these folks is like,
please don't ask me to stand up and then clap
at me. Um, that's, that's, I'm not really, I'm
not really interested in that. I, I would, I
would much rather, um, you just reach out your
hand and, you know, say, Hey, my name is, um,
it's nice to meet you. And, and just talk to
me. Um, because I think in many ways, and you
know, this might be a little bit of a controversial
statement, but, um, the clapping is not for me.
It's for you. Cause I don't want it. Um, and
I, I think about those responders that are walking
out of the hospital after getting their ass handed
to them, you know, for a 14 hour shift, if they
were lucky, um, or the ability to go home that
night, if they were lucky that night, um, getting
clapped at, it's kind of like, I, I, I don't,
who is this for? Yep. Exactly. And I think, you
know, this is the thing is then you. you fast
forward. And what I've always said is this, okay,
to appreciate the service that these men and
women went through, to appreciate all the firefighters
in California and the ones from neighboring states
and even countries that came to help, the way
that you pay that forward is you support them
when they need the staffing, the financing, the
change in work weeks. That's how you truly thank
them for their service. is create an environment.
But what happens is, is this virtual signaling
at the time, and it's coming from a good place.
And most people don't get me wrong, but it's
so quickly forgotten. And then the FDNY is a
perfect example. You know, post 9 -11, they're
heroes. It's a few short years later that they're
begging for the, you know, $50 ,000 for their
terminally ill cancer, you know, responders.
And then, you know, the city is turning their
back on them. You know, and this is what we've
got to do if we really want to thank people for
their service, like the Hunter 7 Foundation,
you know, people that are taking care of our
veterans and first responders. That's how you
thank them by being part of the movement to create
an environment that allows them and their families
to thrive. Yeah, I mean, show up, right? Like,
I mean, it starts with showing up, you know,
presence implies interest. Like step one is show
up. And, you know, I think another book that's
a really great read is Tribe by Sebastian Younger.
And he does a really good job of talking about
the, you know, the cost, helping to bear the
burden of the cost of war. And, and that's really,
you know, when you talk about moral injury, right?
Like one of the, one of the ways that moral injury
really exacerbates is when it, when it's in the
dark, when you just feel like there's nobody,
nobody else can, you know, help me hold this
and, you know, just, just showing up and being
there and being supportive and being willing
to listen. You don't have to have the answers,
you know, like just be willing to like walk,
walk that difficult mile with me or have a cup
of coffee, you know, and just listen. you know
listen to the stories because the truth is that
otherwise you know like you have a very small
percentage of the population that is holding
the weight of this consequential trauma that
compounds, whether it's the traumatic circumstances
in and out of calls that are experienced by responders,
whether it's the traumatic circumstances of those
who deploy forward on behalf of American democracy
and policy into warfare, whatever. Law enforcement
officers that are showing up or standing in line
trying to keep people safe while getting spit
at, screamed at, and yelled at, like, sit with.
You know, and help us hold some of that, because,
you know, the truth is, is that all of these
people, they raise their hands to serve, to say,
like, I will I will protect you. I will serve
you. Right. And I do I do agree with you. I believe
that the clapping is coming from a good place.
And I believe that far more often people just
don't know what to do. They don't know how to
approach it. They don't know how to say, and
I would just encourage you, like maybe start
with, hi, my name is reach your handout and just
say like, you know, just want you to know that
what you do goes on. It doesn't go unnoticed.
You know, I, I appreciate it. You know, and maybe
get to know somebody, you know, don't just kind
of treat it like a, like this, you know, far
off abstract concept, you know, like. first responders,
you know, first responders, military veterans,
law enforcement, you know, medics, like we're
not heroes. We're just human beings. We're just
people just like you maybe start by like, you
know, treating us like that and just engage with
us in, in, in a, in a thoughtful and intentional
manner. Absolutely. Well, before we go to where
people can find the book, your leadership organization,
and you guys in general online, what do you do
to decompress? I spend time in God's great cathedral,
which is the mountains. A couple of things that
I do to decompress is every morning I get up,
I start my day with, I call it the grounding
before the grinding. So I spend about 30 minutes
in prayer, contemplation. I spend time in God's
word. I usually start with a practice of gratitude.
I'm usually naming at least three things that
I'm grateful for. Part of my decompress and what
I do is I simply must get six workouts in a week.
I rest on Sunday. That's another part of my self
-care regimen is I take Sabbath seriously. Uh,
what else do I do? I spend time out in nature
as much as possible. Um, I try to at least get
out there once a week, um, which is, which is
really good for me. Um, and, uh, I also, I go
to therapy, you know, I go to therapy every other
week. Um, my therapist is a trauma informed EMDR
trained therapist. I've done a lot of EMDR, uh,
with Emily. I'm going to say her name, big shout
out. Uh, she's a fricking badass and she's totally
one of my. teammates that has, uh, you know,
supported me through my ups and downs in life.
Uh, and, you know, talk about it and then also
make time for, um, you know, for, for relationships,
you know, I date my wife, try to spend time with
my friends. Um, and just, uh, yeah, those are
some of my key practice. Oh, and fricking go
to sleep for God's sakes, go to sleep on time.
You know, that's the other thing. I try to put
my any electronics down 60 minutes before bedtime.
I try not to get into any caffeine after like,
you know, maybe like one o 'clock in the afternoon.
Sleep has been a massive, you know, like reorienting
thing for me over the years because I mean, my
sleep was shot working in special operations.
You work the you know, we say we own the night.
So, you know, you sleep during the day, you'd
operate at night under night vision, ranger school,
all that kind of stuff. You just my clock needed
to be reset. So I do a lot of focus on sleep
hygiene as well. I've never even thought about
this before. Did being asleep during the day
and then relying a lot on night vision at night
have any detrimental impact on your actual vision?
I can tell you that it I mean, I still have 2020
vision, but, you know, headaches that you would
get, like the searing pain of looking through
the green screen for 10 hours on end or, you
know, that is it when you didn't fall asleep
droning while on patrol. Big shout out to my
ranger buddy, Matt, who kept us on four wheels
at all times because there were some times that
I was the tactical commander and I was like falling
asleep. I just couldn't stay awake. But but he
kept us going. But yeah, I mean, I think I think
all that stuff has a compounding effect that
we just we just don't even know the full extent
of it. You know, I mean, you know, you take that
and you compound it. So I was a I was a master
explosives breacher when I was in the Rangers.
You know, all the micro concussive blasts that
you sustain, the soft palate damage. That's that's
why, you know, we have this kind of like it's
like special operator trifecta. PTSD, traumatic
brain injury, sleep apnea, you know, like I'm
completely fit. I got sleep apnea. Where did
that come from? You know, like it all, I think
it all, it all compounds. And yeah, man, it's
just like, it's just like the worst too. Like
now where I'm at now, you know, one of the things
that I do for myself is I'll just, you know,
I'll just tell Kel, like, I'm, I can't stay awake
anymore. I can stay awake. I know I can stay
awake. I won't do it anymore. You know, I'll,
I'll take a nap. You know, I've, I've already,
I've sustained so much damage with that, that
it's just not, it's not worth it anymore. Yeah,
absolutely. Well, sleep debt is real too. So
we're all walking around with this massive deficit
that we've got to try and chip out a little bit.
Absolutely, man. Like do what you got to do to
get to sleep. You know, like if you haven't had
a sleep test and you're really struggling with
it, go get one. you know, like, uh, advocate
for it with your, with your healthcare provider.
Um, you know, and I'll tell on myself right now,
I know I have sleep apnea. I have not been able
to figure out how to sleep with the CPAP machine.
It's just be honest with you. It scares the shit
out of me, um, and wakes me up. Uh, so I'm, I'm
going to try some of the, um, mouthpieces that
you can use. Um, But I mean, seriously, look
at your caffeine intake. Look at your digital
intake. Set the conditions for success for sleep.
Do what you got to do. Lower the temperature
in your room. There's a number of things. Get
the technology out of your room. My phone does
not go into my room anymore. Limit distractions
as best you can. There's some great sleep apps
out there. that, you know, are kind of like an
active meditation that will help you, you know,
really just kind of like decompress, like power,
like take it seriously is what I would recommend
because that's what I do is like, you know, come
nine o 'clock at night. Like I'm, I am preparing
to, I am powering down, you know, truthfully,
it's more like eight o 'clock or eight 30 and
it drives my wife crazy, but you know. But take
it seriously because you've got to have that
recovery. Your body, your brain needs to recover
in that. And if you're struggling with it, man,
get a test done, see where you're at, make that
a starting point, and start looking at all those
other things I listed because sleep debt is real
and the compounding damage of your body not being
able to recover is no joke. Have you ever heard
of a technology called NUCALM? N -U -C -A -L
-M. so i had the the ceo on the on the show um
i am not someone that really has confirmation
bias it's usually the opposite you know i'm thinking
of snake oil the quick backstory nasa naval special
warfare at the nfl they had this technology it
was like a six thousand dollar big box in their
room and there was a chair and then you put on
headphones and a sleep mask and you listen to
this thing and it gives you like the equivalent
of 90 minutes of sleep and it's also down regulating
the nervous system um well smartphones advance
so so far that now it's an app on your phone
and the back story is this incredibly intelligent
scientist we had in the us who figured out the
frequency of brain waves at different mental
states and then figured out how to put the brain
into that state i've never seen anything from
that kind of you know genre that works so well
that i just did a power nap the 20 minute one
right before we recorded and i'm as we've talked
about i'm sick at the moment so i'm trying to
trying to get the quality sleep but they also
have ones that you play at night and there's
a new one now that will kind of put you to sleep
then it's that kind of you know keeping you there
and then it's the other side so that is another
really you know um powerful tool whether it's
just simply doing a nap during the day um or
if it's actually trying to be that ambient noise
in the background but the undulation beneath
beneath the track is really what's telling your
brain hey go to sleep unlike you know a playlist
on spotify i mean i love spotify but this is
a completely different technology so What's it
called? NUCALM. And they have a free trial. I
think it's like a week's free trial as well.
But it's phenomenal. And it's passive. You don't
have a choice to downregulate. It's going to
downregulate you. And I can't nap. All the sleep
deprivation I have, I've never been able to nap
in the fire station, not on a regular basis.
So this gives me that equivalent of that. And
from a heightened state, it brings me back down.
So amazing tool. It's so funny how, how, how
it like the, like the variations, what would
happen to me is like, I could fall asleep like
that at an instant anywhere, you know, whether
driving, whether just sitting down, I would just
be out, but I wouldn't get that restorative sleep
because I'd have so many disturbances and whatnot.
So I love that. I'll check out, I'll check out
that new calm. That's, that's really interesting.
Yeah. Thank you. It's phenomenal. Let me know.
All right. Well, then the very last thing, where
can people find Applied Leadership Partners?
And then where are the best places to find the
book? Yeah, thank you for asking. You can find
us at AppliedLeadershipPartners .com. That is
our website. You can find me personally at LinkedIn
is probably the best place. I'm just Brandon
Young. I think it's actually like Brandon Young
14. I don't know. You can buy Perseverance is
Greater Than Endurance anywhere books are sold.
So please go to Amazon if you prefer Amazon.
Please go to Barnes & Noble if you prefer Barnes
& Noble or Books A Million if you prefer Books
A Million. But we would we would sure be honored
if you would allow us into your journey by grabbing
this book and you can get it anywhere you get
books. And you can also there's going to be an
audible version. uh out uh on february 11th and
there's also going to be a kindle version so
yeah fantastic well i want to say i mean it's
an incredible book and just you know like you
touched on one more light the one i wrote when
you few storytelling into takeaway concepts.
I think that's the ultimate learning tool. And
you do that so beautifully between yourself and
Blaine with those two different lenses that you
have. So I highly recommend people, you know,
whether they listen in February or whether they
buy it now. So I want to thank you for being
so generous with your time today and coming on
the Behind the Shield podcast. Well, thanks for
having me, James. It's been an honor.