This episode is sponsored by Transcend, a veteran
-owned and operated performance optimization
company that I introduced recently as a sponsor
on this show. Well, since then I have actually
been using my products and I have had incredible
success. There was initial blood work that was
extremely detailed and based on that they offered
supplementation. So I began taking DHEA. BPC
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I've been a stuntman, a martial artist and a
firefighter my whole life. Lots of aches and
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punches to the head and shift work and peptides.
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they offer, whether it's male health, female
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Now, as I mentioned before, the other side of
this company is an altruistic arm called the
Transcend Foundation, which is putting veterans
and first responders through some of their protocols
free of charge. Now, Transcend are also offering
you, the audience, 10 % off their protocols.
And you can find that on jamesgearing .com under
the Products tab. And if you want to hear more
about Transcend and their story, listen to episode
808 with the founder, Ernie Colling. or go to
transcendcompany .com. This episode is sponsored
by TeamBuildr, yet another company that's doing
great things for the first responder community.
As a strength and conditioning coach myself,
who also trains tactical athletes, dissemination
of wellness information is one of the biggest
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to collate health and wellness data. It integrates
with wearables. And I think one of the most important
things is obviously it tracks. To me, it's imperative
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from day one and then over the full span of their
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if you want to try TeamBuildr, they are offering
you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast,
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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you
think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome
to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,
my name is James Gearing and this week it is
my absolute honor to welcome on the show 10 -year
veteran of the fire service and the man behind
conscious movements, Joey Scrivani. Now in this
conversation, we discuss a host of topics from
his journey into the fire service, some notable
career calls, his PTSD diagnosis, how that sent
him on a holistic healing journey, trauma release
exercises, ice baths, breath work, plant medicines,
and so much more. Now, before we get to this
incredible conversation, as I say every week,
please just take a moment, go to whichever app
you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,
leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single
five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,
therefore making it easier for others to find.
And this is a free library of over 1 ,000 episodes
now. So all I ask in return is that you help
share these incredible men and women's stories
so I can get them to every single person on planet
Earth who needs to hear them. So with that being
said, I introduce to you, Joey Scrivani. Enjoy.
Well, Joey, I want to start by saying thank you
so, so much for taking the time and coming on
the Behind the Shield podcast today. Thank you,
man. I'm excited to be here. It's an honor to
get to talk with you. So where on planet Earth
are we finding you this afternoon? I'm in northwest
Florida, Panama City Beach. Beautiful. How was
that winter kind of polar vortex that we had
on your end? It was unreal, man. We ended up
getting like four or five inches of snow. I got
a five -year -old and a one -year -old. Neither
of them had seen snow before. My wife's aunt
was visiting us from Ecuador. 77, never seen
snow. So it was amazing, man. We made snowmans
in the backyard, snowball fights, the whole thing.
Amazing. All right. Well, I would love to start
at the very beginning of your journey. So tell
me where you were born and tell me a little bit
about your family dynamic, what your parents
did, how many siblings. I was born in Hollywood,
Florida, so South Florida. My parents, my dad
owned his own vacuum shop and appliance store.
It's called AAA Vacuums if you're looking for
service with that kind of stuff. My mom did some
secretarial work and she did a lot raising the
kids. So there was four of us, my older brother,
myself, a younger brother and a younger sister.
When I think of electrical repair, I think of
like the old school televisions or vacuum cleaners.
Those things were bombproof, bombproof. You know,
they lasted for years and years and years. As
we progress through now, it seems like a lot
of our technology is almost disposable. What
has your dad seen as far as that progress and
innovation and maybe the move away from a durable
product that can be updated? Yeah, no, that's
an interesting question, man. It's funny because
he, so his, the product he mainly sells is called
Miele and it's a German product. And it's that
more old school type of build where it's durable.
It's a more expensive product, but it's a better
product. my dad gets a lot of people who buy
something off of amazon then it breaks then they
come to him to try to fix it and it's like it
costs more money for him to fix it than if you
just would have got a good product in the beginning
so i definitely relate to that question what
a beautiful analogy for the fire service yeah
wow man yeah false economy as they say All right.
Well, then what about growing up in Hollywood?
My wife just came back from Nova down there after
spending almost four years doing the Doctor of
Optometry program. I lived down in Pembroke Pines
about 20 years ago when I first worked for Hialeah
down there. What have you seen as far as, you
know, what was it like when you were little?
And then what are kind of the aha moments when
you go and visit now? remember it being a smaller
place you know it was good uh neighborhoods and
stuff grew up with kind of the same kids in the
same area but um i mean i've been gone now for
12 years or so but when i go back it's just how
massive everything is the yeah the population's
insane and i'm honestly glad i i didn't work
down south because it's it's just it's crazy
i mean it's crazy everywhere you work but Just
the numbers down there is a whole nother level.
I've said this on here a couple of times. What
I struggle with having lived down there and then
obviously visited over the last four years when
I go see my wife and she's down there in school
is you have, you know, a large immigrant population
down there. Like Hialeah, where I work, was I
think 96, 98 % Cuban, for example. So, you know,
you have all these people that make it across
from their countries. There's got to be a lot
of gratitude. But culturally, like on the roads
and some of the more affluent areas, it's kind
of that kind of I got mine, fuck everyone else
mentality, whether it's on the road, whether
it's just, you know, kind of around. And I struggle
with how somewhere that's so densely populated
by maybe a first, second generation from, you
know, nations that are probably struggling. that
there isn't more of a sense of community kindness
and compassion because when you drive down there
I mean god the number of fatal wrecks they have
just just the what you see the selfishness on
the roads it really it really turns my stomach
you know coming from you know from another country
myself and being so grateful for here you'd think
there'd be a lot more kind of integration and
and yeah just I don't know I don't even have
put my my finger on it but I don't I didn't see
a lot of that community element that you think
would be forged coming. And it's not just, don't
get me wrong, it's not just people from other
countries, but collectively as a part of the
country that now has people that are doing so
well, you'd think there'd be a lot more community
feeling, a lot more kind of giving back. And
I just didn't feel that a lot down in South Florida
specifically compared to other parts of the United
States. Yeah. The thing that I think about when
you say that is just the sheer number of people.
I think growing up in a bigger city like that.
And then when I moved to Northwest Florida, it's
a much smaller place. When the numbers are so
high, it's easy to forget that it's a real person
like next to you, you know what I mean? Because
they're anonymous. So I think that's like part
of it. And it's just, it's hard. It's easier
for us when we know the people around us to act
appropriately. I guess that would be the same
kind of analogy with the internet. You can be
a complete asshole behind a computer, but when
you're actually faced with the consequences,
it changes how you behave. And I think when you
dilute a community with too many people, just
like you said, there's a disconnection from what
we actually are supposed to be like tribally
as a species. Yeah, it's just too many dang people.
All right, well then. reflecting on your childhood
when you were young what were you playing and
doing as far as sports and exercise um basketball
baseball as a younger guy and then probably like
mid teenagers 9 10 and something like that uh
started playing hockey and that was my my real
passion as a as far as sports How popular was
hockey? Because obviously I know that we have
rinks like Orlando has a rink with a Solar Bears
play. How popular was it compared to I would
think, you know, baseball being very popular
down south? Yeah, so that was probably a big
part of me getting into it. We just got the Florida
Panthers at that time. I'm not sure the date,
but somewhere in the late 90s. So it just it
brought a lot of people like young kids like
myself were excited about it. And they did a
really good job, honestly. of like putting out
uh tournaments and like little ways you can interact
with the team and um and then you know they they
made it to the uh like semi -finals at one point
like early on in the the beginning of the team
and then we hadn't had nothing for a while and
then we won last year so go panthers what about
the impact of the lessons that you learned physically
mentally um on your ability to be a firefighter
later in your career yeah it's a i mean we're
i think they call it tactical athletes like i
definitely when i was on the job i used to joke
with my wife like i get paid to work out you
know i'm pretty much an athlete and um that's
true i mean we're asked to do a physical job
um there should be certain expectations and standards
that you could do to be able to perform the job
properly so I always was into physical fitness
as a kid and just liked doing hard shit. And
the fire service is obviously a good way to do
that. Well, speaking of that, when you were in
the school age, was that what you're already
thinking about? Or was there another career you
had in mind at that point? So most of my childhood,
I didn't have any direct goal as far as career
wise. kind of just because of my childhood, some
traumatic early kind of stuff. And it kind of
pushed me into this desire to help people. So
luckily, I was a pretty good student. And in
my senior year of school, there was a program
called Wise, where if you had finished most of
your credits, you can do like an internship.
Just liking the physical aspect of it, wanting
to help people, not wanting to be behind the
desk type of thing. I chose to do an internship
with Hollywood Fire Rescue. And honestly, that
changed my life. It really gave me a goal and
like a direction. I liked working out and getting
paid for it. So that just progressed after I
got out of high school, went straight to EMT,
fire and then paramedic. You touched on childhood
trauma, and I know that you just sent me a video
that you just did in Colorado, one of the TRE
events, and you touch on the ACE score. When
you reflect now with this mature lens that obviously
has been through your own crucible, what were
the elements of your early upbringing that contributed
to struggles later in life? I think the biggest
one is Learning as a young kid to kind of neglect
my own feelings in the service to others. That's
if I had to boil it down, that's that's probably
it. And I think a lot of us as first responders
go through shit and it may be stuff that would
really kill most people. But we find some resilience
in the fact that we don't want that to happen
to others. And we want to mitigate that in some
way. And then the fire service gives you that
ability and you get, you know, trained up to
do it and then you get to do it and it's very
fulfilling and rewarding. I mean, it's absolutely
essential. And you kind of made this comparison
in the video about when you're on a call, when
you're running a code, you can't be queening
out and running around screaming. You've got
to be in that zone and be that kind of, you know,
Robocop mentality at that point. But the danger
that we have is after the fact, you've then got
to allow yourself to feel and process and allow
those feelings to manifest how they would normally
for a regular human being. I think the danger
that we have is that flow state, that leaning
into your acronyms, leaning into your training.
We forget that the other side of that has to
be allowing yourself to process. And if you don't,
if you just bury it down, you end up shifting
the identity to RoboCop rather than that simply
being a tool in your toolbox. Yeah, man, that
message right there, I wish someone would have
told me when I was 20 years old and first got
on the job because I was shown the exact opposite,
which is... unfortunately, much of what their
culture is still today, the whole repression,
keep it in that little box in your head, keep
it separated somehow. The punchline is that does
not work. That's why we're in the crisis we're
in. And by not doing that work, eventually something's
going to give, whether it's your marriage or
your relationship with your kids or just your
own heart, because like we talked about, you
shut that down. And if you do the work to process
that stuff, it's going to give you greater empathy
and compassion to be able to do your job at a
higher level, which is the whole point. We want
to help people. This past couple of days in Colorado,
that's just what really stuck out to me again
is there's so much purpose in helping. Service
is a privilege. It's like a drug. I mean, you're
allowed to forget yourself through selfless action.
And that is the end of suffering in a sense.
So, yeah, I'm sorry. I kind of lost where I was
going with that. No, no, you're fine. Well, you
mentioned about doing Fire EMT paramedic. Walk
me through, you know, the front door for you.
What was the conversation, if any, about mental
health, fitness standards? And then what were
your first few weeks, months like for you as
a 20 year old? Going through the Broward Fire
Academy, I mean, there I don't remember much
talk of mental health ever, but the physical
standards are high. And I appreciated that. I
mean, there's more of the talk of mental toughness,
which is such a. necessary part of the job. There
is a time to firemen up and get after it. But
there was no talk of like the softer side of
things, which is what this conversation is about,
that it's a necessary, you know, yin and yang
type thing. So not much conversation about it.
And then a big impressionable moment for me was
one of my first calls at a BLS station I worked
at. where a young man was hit on a bicycle, his
stomach was flayed open, guts on the floor. I'm
first on scene. I'm only a couple days, weeks
on the job. I have no clue what I'm doing, you
know what I mean? Like, the schooling prepares
you in a sense, but not really. And then after
that call, you know, the young man died. But
I look to the... people who were in you know
my lieutenants these these older men who i was
looking up to um and their strategy was the repression
uh the dark humor which is a great tool but can
also be used to um not feel the hard feelings
um and then you know go out and get some beers
make some jokes about it get ready to do it again
and that is the prevailing strategy for our service
i think for police military fire all all kinds
of first responders and the message we're talking
about here today is that you have to do this
other side of it um and and when you do you'll
be a better responder you'll be able to help
even more which is why we get into this we want
to help we want to mitigate suffering for people
and and it's Yeah. Yeah, 100%. One of the things
that's become kind of more apparent to me, I
have said this on here many times, through 14
years, I never had a code save. I was the reaper.
You know, when you went into cardiac arrest,
it was usually a GI bleed. It was a brain bleed.
It was, you know, AAA. It was all the things,
you know. And so. What I realized after a while,
even though it never like crushed me, crushed
me, there was definitely this kind of this burnout.
And I remember one of my friends, Shelby, who
at the time, I think she was in nursing school.
We had another code and she goes, did you make
it? Did they make it? And I was like, fuck no.
And she was literally did a double take. And
I told her, I kind of caught myself. I'm like,
yeah, that they never make it. And I realized
that when we went to school, there's nothing
wrong with this. When we went to school. acls
you know pals whatever it is you do x y and z
and then you know return to normal rhythm you
know and then you see in the paper the station
that came around with a cake and they gave him
a hug i never had that no one ever told me that
almost no one is going to make it and if you're
a black cloud no one's going to fucking make
it in 14 years and so that inability to save
that that shame and that guilt of what the fuck
you know in in class They made it. We put their
guts back in with saline and bandages, and they
made it. So I think that's another thing that
we need to reevaluate is the way that we train.
You make entry in a fire doesn't mean you're
going to get the kid out. The kid might already
be ash. So lowering those expectations, not lowering
the potential of making a rescue, but making
young people understand there are many, many
times where they just won't make it, and it's
nothing that you could have done. Yeah, dude,
that's an amazing thing. I've never thought about
that, but we should be preparing people when
you're doing your mega codes and stuff for a
patient who does die. What does that protocol
look like? And I know just from personal experience
towards the end of my career, I actually started
to feel this and think about that because I had
a few saves. But like you said, the majority
of them you can't save. And I started to not.
we used to do the idea of like load and go right
like get them in the ambulance get moving to
the hospital and we started to shift more towards
the stay and play type thing where you're you
know run the code on scene get it done make sure
it's going well if they don't make it then call
it on scene you don't waste all these resources
and give people false hope and like you know
it's just not the best way like it's unfortunate
that people die but First responders, I never
had thought about this, but we're the people
who are there for people's father who died from
a heart attack or whatever. And you almost have
a responsibility to help that situation. If it's
a shitty situation, show the person, look, we're
doing everything they would do at the hospital.
We're giving this drug. We're innovating them
with this. We're going to help them breathe.
His heart rhythm's doing this right now. We're
going to try to shock it. If it doesn't work,
you know, in a few minutes, we're going to have
to call it. There's nothing we can do. That process
allows those people the experience of not having
to be like, man, did they mess up when I didn't
see him when they rushed out to the hospital?
And, you know, that experience for the child
driving to the hospital when daddy's in the ambulance
flying down the road and they're hopeful that
he's going to make it. And then they get to the
hospital and get kicked in the nuts again because,
you know, the doctor tells them. So that's something
I've never even heard this conversation about.
But we absolutely need to train our young people
for that reality. You're probably going to have
to pronounce somebody dead. And what does that
look like? And again, to the trauma piece, do
you think if you don't even know what your own
emotions are, that you're going to be able to
successfully do that for someone in that situation?
There's no way in hell. Yeah. I'll never forget,
I had a code. It was at a resort area in like
a dog kennel. Someone had dropped off there.
They were about to drop off their dog. They collapsed
and the code went so well. But again, it was
one of those underlying things where you're not
going to come back from it. This was a bleed
that you don't return. And so looking back and
going, that code could not have gone any better.
That is what you need to lean into. And again,
that's where fitness standards and training standards
and all these come in. If you're deconditioned
and someone dies in a house fire because you
knew that you basically tapped out, I don't know
how you can carry that. You know what I mean?
That's a whole separate conversation. But if
you've drilled and you did everything that you
could, infusing in a megacode that it is asystole,
call on scene and work through those protocols,
make that one of the scenarios. So that way...
you know that sometimes on a one out of 10, maybe
you'll actually get normal sinus again and ROSC,
but weave in those ones where they don't. I think
that would actually be very helpful. Yeah, no,
it's such a great idea and it's such an easy
thing. Like it's so easy for the instructor to
go, he didn't make it. And then what, like as
when I was 18, 19 year old kid, like what would
I have said then? You know, especially if it's
like a surprise. Like, you don't know it's coming.
Your instructor is just going to say he died.
Like, and see just, I mean, the reality is I
was 20 and I was in that situation. You know
what I mean? Like, that's what the job is. You
immediately are now in these just situations
that honestly, since I didn't recognize it until
I've been out for about three years now, what
first responders do is not normal life. You know
what I mean? I went from a young kid. to my mid
-20s or early 20s to mid -30s doing that work.
And it wasn't until I've been out for two or
three years now where it's like, yeah, I don't
see dead people. I don't see bad accidents. You
know what I mean? All these things that are so
normal that we as first responders think it's
normal life, it's really not. The amount of shit
we do in a shift is more than most people do
in a year. You know, I mean, if not greater.
So 100 percent. I've been out six and a half
years. I worked a cardiac arrest on a plane in
London about. just over a year ago, but that's
the only one in six and a half years. So you
think about, you know, our careers are roughly
the same 14 years. I mean, I saw so much when
I was writing my books, I have, I wrote down
all, not the dead people that would have taken
up the whole book, but just the horrible dead
people calls. And it was two sides of a four,
two sides of letter size paper. And I'm like,
Jesus Christ. And that's just 14 years. We've
got men and women that have worked 30, 40 years
in their careers. So yeah, we accumulate so much.
Yeah, absolutely. There's there's no way around
it. I mean, even if you're even if it's you've
only been on for a little bit, if you've seen
some stuff and you've been sleep deprived for
a bit and, you know, I mean, like whatever other
negative coping strategies you're doing, like
it, it changes you. You cannot you may be blind
to it like I was for a long time, like most of
us are. But if you ask the spouse or the friends
around, like the job changes you, you know, and.
it's it's changes you in a in a negative way
in a sense because you come become more jaded
and more robotic um but it's like this is the
hard part that is necessary like i don't want
the fire service to go super soft like we need
to be able to be badass motherfuckers and get
shit done but we cannot be so scared to do the
other side of it and and like just neglect that
part of it because it's It only makes you better.
That's what's exciting about, like, I'm not on
the job anymore. But if I can get somebody to
realize that who's on the job and they then go
show up on scene in a really present way, as
well as doing the protocol and making sure everything's
done, you know, don't be afraid to hold your
patient's hand or, you know, give them a hug
or look them in the eye. Ask them if you want
the AC on or off, the lights, can I adjust your
headrest? Those things are so necessary in the
process of healing. Being the first responder
in these moments of people's dire circumstances,
you literally get to be an angel to them. And
you're lucky to do it. Well, I've said this in
both of the books, basically. If you think about
it, we are the only hope that a lot of the more
struggling people in our communities have. Like,
I'll never forget going down Orange Blossom Trail
in Orlando over and over again. And, you know,
gang members, sex workers, homeless, they would
be waving at the rescue, not the police cars,
but at the rescue, you know, because you're their
beacon of hope. You might be the last person.
they see and or you might be the only person
that has a kind word for them that day that week
maybe that month yeah no that's that's the thing
that we're these services are holding together
society like and that's why my call is for us
to like step up like we get to be superheroes
the people who sign up for this job you chose
to do it you know i mean like um We got to do
this stuff so we can be able to not lose our
heart for these people who are in dire circumstances,
you know, just our fellow humans. I think a big
thing is like we all, so many of us get into
this to help. Like that's the drug of this job.
And wouldn't you want to be able to be of greater
service? You know, that's kind of the hope I'm
pushing out there. One thing I'm really calling
for this year is courage. And the more I unwrap
courage and cowardice, the more roots of these
problems I see. So, for example, you've got departments
that are working 56 hours a week, 80 hours a
week with mandatory overtime. And people who
work 40 hours a week who go home at five every
night are denying them the ability to have more
rest and recovery. They're saying, no, you don't
deserve to work less than 56 hours a week. That
is pure cowardice to me. But then let's talk
about fitness standards. You know, to say, oh,
I don't want to be held to a standard like I
was in the academy as I progressed through my
career and therefore be perform worse and less
than the chance of even making it to retirement.
That's cowardice as well. You know, we need to
be courageous in these decisions. And there's
a leaning in the identity of a firefighter. But
the harsh reality is how many fires, true fires,
like I'm going to rescue someone fires. are you
actually going to? Because that's what you're
clinging to is your identity as a courageous
firefighter. And what I will challenge people
is the true courage is advocating for time at
home with your family. True courage is advocating
for the bar to be set high, for fitness standards
to be set high so that you are ready to do the
job. And as you said, you're the best version
of yourself as a medic, as a firefighter, as
a cop. So if you're going to only get, you know,
four fires a year bonafide legit fires a year
then you're only asked to be brave for a few
hours every quarter so where the courage really
needs to be leaned into is the things that are
killing our men and women and it's all the things
that we're talking about today yeah absolutely
i mean the when you say courage it brings up
to mind that like there's you know having fear
is not a bad thing it's just acting making a
decision in the face of that fear that's what
courage is so that just brings up the emotional
side of the of the work it's it's scary it's
not fun it doesn't feel good all the time um
but like you're saying to have the courage to
do it you know that's what's i mean that's what's
killing us it's there's a bruce lipton is a a
scientist who has a quote that something like
95 of all diseases caused by stress so you know
we got to worry about the cancers and being in
shape and doing all these things but this job
you accumulate so much stress and if you're not
doing something to mitigate that stress it's
going to turn into diabetes cancer heart attacks
all the other things so have the courage to take
care of yourself there's there's a saying i like
that you can't give what you don't have um there's
an another idea of i we all So and then we know
this in the fire service, you you take care of
yourself first in a fire so you can then take
care of your brother. Right. You we put our oxygen
mask on first on the plane, then your children
like we and we have just forgot to do it, you
know, out of this. Like, I think it's out of
this courageous bravery to help. But there's
a piece missing where we forget ourselves. And
society sees taking care of yourself as selfish.
But I think we're seeing more and more that,
no, you have to be pampering yourself in a way,
doing all the things you can to mitigate your
stress, because otherwise it's going to take
you out. Well, because we are selfless servants
and it does get muddied, which is why I think
we are where we are now with the work week, because
we will show up regardless and we've been taken
advantage of. That's the bottom line. to the
detriment of our health, but also of our family's
health. Like there is hands down proof of the,
you know, much higher chance of our children
having disease because of the way we work and
our broken bodies. The relationship, you know,
issues that we have, the divorces and all the
other things. So my challenge is, again, don't
worry about yourself. This will take care of
you, but do the work on yourself for your family.
The then way it's a selfless act. Again, you
need to do the meditation, you know, the TRE,
you know, the psychedelic retreat. If that's
a path that you're going to go down, the counseling,
the EMDR, the fitness, the yoga, all the things.
But that means that when you walk through the
door, you can be mom and dad again. You can be
present with your kids. And if you are looking
to, you know, to to have another child, you increase
the chance that that's going to be, you know,
a healthier child. Hopefully, you know. free
of any abnormalities with a relationship. When
you come home, you're a loving partner. These
are things that I think are absolute byproducts
of when we do the work. And for all the, it's
for them, chess beater lads and ladies, you are
going to be a better firefighter when you do
the work. You cannot operate at a high level
when you're sleep deprived, when your mind is
like a maelstrom. There's no way you're going
to be able to be in a flow state in a primary
search if you haven't slept. You know, so fighting
for an environment, not only for your family's
health, but to operate the highest level as a
firefighter. So there is no downside. And it
is it is selfless. Yes, you're going to end up
working on you and you are going to benefit.
But it's also going to benefit primarily your
family, arguably the most important thing. And
then a close second, the people that you protect
in your community. Yeah, that's that's that's
it, man. And it's that's kind of like the framing
effect, right? Like we get to choose how we frame
what we're doing. And that makes a huge difference.
So if you don't like the idea of self -compassion,
like you said, call it whatever. What's your
why? Think about your kid or your spouse or whoever
it is that like you want to be doing this for
and just, you know, use your mind in that way
to frame it to do this necessary work. Absolutely.
Well, we kind of got you walking through into
the profession as you progress through. What
are some of the career calls that you remember?
And it doesn't have to be the quote unquote worst
thing by any means. But what are some of the
ones that always pop in your head when you look
back now? I mean, as far as like the bad stuff,
maybe I'll start with some good ones because
it's, you know, it's such a fun career, like
getting to help people. And just like you said,
you roll through bad neighborhoods or whatever.
Everybody likes the fireman, like going into
the store. And it's an amazing career. um doing
pancake breakfast doing you know group workouts
um doing hardship together like getting to do
go on high ladders and and just do cool stuff
it's their job is so cool you know um but as
far as bad calls um a couple that you know stick
out is the the my first call the one i explained
with the guy who got hit on a bicycle um i have
gone to a few hangings that that stick in my
mind that uh that lifeless body kind of that
slow sway it's that image is in my mind for it's
been there for a while um but and then one that
kind of was the end of my career um was a a young
man and a young girl leaving a bar probably drunk
from the bar the cop flicks the lights on to
just pull them over and they decided to gun it
and try to get away. They come through an intersection,
nail into another vehicle. And the young man
who was driving dead on scene and the young woman
who was still conscious, although she was obliterated
on alcohol, she was kind of shoved in the floorboard
of the passenger side. I got there, pulled her
out. We got her in the ambulance, started to
do the protocols. And as I go down the protocols
of getting a line, establishing access to get
meds and all that, every limb I came to, there
was no access point. Everything was intact, but
everything was broken inside of the body. And
that call really just... Kind of it just rocked
me. I talk about in the video you referred to
earlier about this helplessness that really it
really fucked my world up because we want to
help. And I had throughout my career, like I
did a good job as a medic. Most of the calls
I could handle, I did a good job. But understanding
the accumulative effect. it's only a matter of
time before a bad call is just too much um and
that kind of is what happened that that came
on the tail end of our department was short -handed
for a bit and you know getting mandatory at a
ridiculous pace um the stress that causes on
a family and uh just your your even your your
one chance to catch a breath um is no longer
there so um yeah that That helplessness and that
overwhelm kind of led toward the end of my career.
Because I didn't feel I could do the job anymore.
You know, I needed help. And that was my goal
was to get help in return. But just the way life
has taken me, my talents are being used elsewhere,
I guess. My ability to help is being funneled
into a new direction. When you look back. What
are some of the lows? What was that breakdown?
And then this is an important conversation as
well. I mean, a dead horse that I flog constantly.
But also, what was the impact of this mandatory
overtime on the family unit? I'll start. I forget
your first question, but I'll start with the
mandatory overtime. I mean, it's the worst feeling
when you've already been there doing the thing.
You had a shitty night. You saw some fucked up
shit and then you think you're going to go home.
You got plans with the wife to do this, to do
that. You know, the job is so hard on the family
already that if you've been in it, you know how
tough it is on your spouse and you know how much
they look forward to your days off. And then
working a job where you you literally just you
can't go home like it's. It's an interesting
situation, to say the least. So the first part
of the question was, what were some of the lows?
The breaking point was, you know, that last call.
But what were you seeing? What were the red flags
prior to that? The compassion fatigue. So and
that's honestly in the fire service. A lot of
people wear it as a badge of honor. Like you're
so you're so fucking tough. You know, nothing
bothers you. But that's because you've turned
your heart off. You've turned your compassion
off. And I definitely went through that where,
you know, you go to a call and you just you don't
give a shit and you just want to get them to
the hospital and get back to bed because you're
so shot. So that the compassion fatigue, just
the sleep is shit. Like shift work is horrible
for your for your sleep. And then, you know.
The stress on top of it, like so many of us have
sleeping issues, whether it's sleep apnea or
restless leg syndrome, all these things that
come from the stress of the job. So the compassion
fatigue, my sleep was garbage, gaining weight
because of excess stress. Also, when you're tired,
you want to eat garbage food. Your society mechanisms
get messed up. So irritability. You know what
I mean? Like being an asshole, which isn't great
for your relationship. A lack of just interest
in doing things. You know what I mean? Like grew
up playing hockey, doing shit, always doing fun
things. And then the job kind of eats you up
and you just become a fireman and you wear a
fireman shirt everywhere. And you only talk to
firemen and we like isolate ourselves and we
forget what it is to be a human. Absolutely.
Just while I remember, when you reflect back
at when you were testing, how competitive was
it then compared to what you're hearing now?
Yeah, this is another big point, the hiring crisis.
So when I tested for Miami -Dade, I guess 14,
15 years ago, from what I remember, 10 ,000 applicants
for 100 spots. at the time was the norm, which
is why I ended up getting hired in Northwest
Florida, because I was a young fire medic with
an associates and all these other things, but
I had no experience. So, you know, I applied
up here and got hired where it was less competitive,
but still competitive. But now we know there's
a hiring crisis going on because people are more
aware of what the job is. And that's where it's
such an opportunity to jump on the mental health
thing. Like, I've heard you talking about it,
how recruits will have compared departments now
and know what's good and what's bad. Back in
the day, you just wanted to get on and you go
wherever. Like, you just wanted to get a job.
And now it's like everybody, there's so much
access to information that the departments who
take mental health seriously, they're going to
become the hotspots. They're going to be the
ones who are turning away applicants. You know
what I mean? It's an ounce of prevention is worth
a pound of cure, right? I forget who says that,
but we got to start doing stuff on the front
end to prepare our people mentally to do this
job. We can't neglect the SOGs and the training
and the algorithms. That shit has to be on point
too. But we also got to do this other part. Yeah,
I think it was Benjamin Franklin that said that.
I think it was. Possibly. Someone smarter than
myself. I'm good at repeating them, but... Some
wise old dude is spilling temperature. Yeah,
but this is the thing. And it's funny because
when you were talking about that, I totally forgot
about this. When I tested for Hialeah, which
was 2004 when I got hired there, it was the same
level of competition. And I remember taking the
job and we didn't even know how much we were
going to get paid for like three weeks. And it
ended up being absolute dog shit. But we were
still like, oh, well, you know, we're working
as firefighters. And it was a great department,
despite the absolute lack of support from the
city of Hialeah and some of the chiefs and mayors
they've had since. But amazing, amazing firefighters.
The bar was set high and they kept it high regardless.
But yeah, I think Miami -Dade earned almost double
what we did when I got hired. I think it was
like $32 ,000 that we got down in South Florida,
which is not very much money at all back then.
But that was what it was like. I mean, you were
just vying. And then I went to California, and
the written test was 1 ,000 candidates. And when
I say fat resume, just like you were alluding
to, fire, EMT or medic, ambulance operator, wildland
experience, volunteer, all the things. And that's
who was sitting at the written test, a thousand
of them. And there was 30 spots, three zero.
So this is what I'm trying to get people to kind
of remember. It was only 10 years ago that it
was still pretty close to that as far as competition.
And we have nosedived from there. So just like
you said, the Boynton Beaches, the Destins, the
Palm Beach Counties, the Palm Beach Gardens,
you know, the Miramars, all these other departments
that have gone to it, Gainesville, Pasco County.
All of those are going to be the thought leaders
now. And that's what we're seeing. Recruitment
has exploded in all those areas as soon as they've
announced it, because they're saying, we give
a shit about people. And when you attract all
these recruits, now you fill those spots. I think
April, Gainesville will be fully staffed again
with 2472. So this is the answer. But going back
to that courage, there is no downside. It even
saves money downstream, city and county. The
only thing that's required is courage, not just
from the chiefs and the union presidents, but
also from the naysay firefighters that are shrugging
their shoulders and say, oh, they'll never go
for it. It'll never happen, which I hear locally
here. And I want to fucking choke people. Like,
think about what this would do for your family.
You would be home so much more. Do not resist
the very change that we're trying to do. It's
like resisting an SCBA back in the day. And just
shrugging your shoulders and go, well, you know,
cancer is not that bad. Yes, it fucking is. And
so are these deaths that we're having now. Miami
-Dade just lost a firefighter. So, you know,
this is I think what's so important is we are,
just like you said, at a beautiful opportunity
to force change. So be that department that is
the tip of the spear and shows the rest of the
community that you actually give a shit about
your men and women in uniform. Yeah, absolutely.
Just with you saying that, I want to shout out
Frederick Firestone in Colorado, Chief Young.
They are thought leaders in this field, and they're
doing mental health in a different way than what
I've seen it be done as. And I'm not saying they
got it all figured out, but it's something different.
They're changing the culture out there, and I'm
just grateful to be a part of it, honestly. Beautiful.
Well, we kind of left off as you starting to
have that crisis. You had that last call. It
crushed you death by a thousand cuts by that
point. Walk me through the support or lack thereof
of your department. And then, you know, what
was the healing journey from there? Yeah. So
this is a sensitive subject for me. It although
we had a the like the slogans of it's OK to not
be OK. We had the coffee mugs going around with
that all over them. Unfortunately, my experience
when I asked for help, there was, you know, it's
kind of representative of what we do. There was
like, okay, you know, the logistical aspect of
it, you go on light duty, you do this, you go
deal with workers' comp, you have to do all these
things, but there was no compassion. And then
my experience on light duty, I dealt with, You
know, I'm there supposing to do, you know, whatever
I can to help out. But I was at such a broken
place that just being at the station, hearing
the tones go off, seeing all the things was triggering
to me. And I could not stop myself but from having
panic attacks while I'm on light duty, while
I'm supposed to be cutting the yard or doing
this and that task. And I'm, you know, hiding
in the station having a panic attack. So there
was not a great level of awareness around this
stuff. And unfortunately, I had some less than,
you know, happy interactions with some of the
people who I was dealing with. But I was thankful
that there is something, you know, I was able
to get off the line and start seeing some doctors.
Um, and that, that started the, you know, the
journey, you know, at least I wasn't, I wasn't
in the position to hurt anybody as far as a citizen,
because that's what really fucked me up is that
I was having a hard time, you know, just keeping
it together. I was terrified of hurting somebody,
you know, like we take the Hippocratic oath and
again, just hearkening back to that idea of helping,
like, I don't want to hurt. I want to help. Um,
and I was in a position where I. I was not in
a good place for a long time and I was running
calls and it took a while for me to have the
balls, the courage to say I'm not OK. So I'm
proud of myself for it now. And I thank God I
had a supportive spouse who she's just amazing.
And I don't know how I could have done it without
her. So I love you, babe. Thank you. So I've
heard a lot of horror stories from people that
have been sent to counselors through whatever
kind of health care system, a city or a county
has, and they sit in front of someone who is
actually detrimental, not helpful. What were
your experiences trying to find culturally competent
clinicians that would help you? Yeah, so that
was an area that I think just the Northwest Florida
maybe was a little behind on. We didn't have
many vetted. doctors. So it was kind of just
whoever workers come through at me. And I went
through a couple different ones that weren't
helpful, were helpful. And then luckily found
one in particular, who was my EMDR therapist,
but more just like a talk therapist type thing.
She was a good therapist. And I think that's
a big part of the mental health stuff. It's like,
You just have to find someone you click with
and see it as brain coaching. It's a chance for
you to unload all that shit in your brain once
or twice a week. And the sooner you start and
the sooner you find somebody that you work with,
that relationship deepens and they help you to
be a better person. So it was just by luck that
I got somebody like that after, like I said,
dealing with a couple who were not. helpful and
not great. But we definitely have to do a better
job as departments of having these people already
in place. And that's kind of what Frederick's
doing that's different is they have brought in
a therapist named Sammy, who's just an amazing
person. And she's part of the culture. You know,
I mean, it's she's there on a regular basis.
She's doing the stuff. She she's a different
therapist than most therapists I've ever seen.
And as firemen and firewomen, we do have to trust
the person we're sitting across from. So that's
a super important part. Therapy works if you
trust the person across from you. Yeah, this
is one thing that I've heard that really seems
to be a common denominator when it comes to solutions.
Hiring a mental, again, a culturally competent
clinician of some sort for a department seems
to be the gold standard. Now, you know, if you're
in a smaller area. Then again, try and find someone
that you share with two or three different agencies
if you have to. But if I think about the barrier
to entry, it's the EAP horror stories. All these
people, it's a Russian roulette, whether you're
actually going to get someone who even can help
you. You have the saturation of some of those.
So now you can't get an appointment for four
months, which I've heard those horror stories,
or just simply the financial element. A lot of
these counselors are not in network and they're
like $100, $150 a session. So investing in that
person that can be at the front door so they
can even, you know, one of the things I think
that we should do is give counseling sessions
like right at the front door, like, you know,
during probation, have six, eight sessions, because
as we mentioned, how many of us brought stuff
in? Almost all of us. So it doesn't mean you're
going to tear your heart open and bare your soul
on day one, but you have this relationship, you
start building it up. It might be nothing to
do with the calls. It might be that you finally
want to talk about what happened when you were
six. Whatever it is, you have that mental health
conversation is normalized at the door. There's
no barrier to entry. And you know exactly who
you're going to see. It's going to be person
X who you've seen 10 times already. So I think
that absolutely, again, if we talk about a professional
standard, having, you know, hiring an actual.
you know clinician whether it's part of the staff
or whether they're contracted and they come in
you know x amount of days a week that to me is
is really the gold standard that we need to be
chasing yeah no absolutely it's it's a tough
thing though because we're we're we're a cranky
bunch of people sometimes so it's it's tough
to find that right therapist um and i just off
you saying that i i remember another um we had
like a chapel or a chaplain on on staff And this
was really disheartening because I after really
struggling, I was desperate to speak to someone.
And I spoke to this chaplain and he he listened.
But there was never a follow up in that that
when I was I was like suicidal at that point
that nearly crushed me because I was like, OK,
10 for you just. All you did, like, for the department,
you let me air it out, but I get it. You don't
give a shit. And that really hurt. And that's
a hard part with this mental health stuff. It's
tough to ask for help. And we rah -rah about
the brotherhood. But unfortunately, my experience
was when I asked for help, I became the outcast.
You know what I mean? I had my aspirations of...
promoting and doing anything else kind of went
out the window um and it's a shame because i
was a young capable uh fit good medic who had
a deep desire to continue helping and you know
i because of the way things went it just made
it almost you know impossible to get back I've
had one of my friends who was in crisis, and
he went to the chaplain. And there are some phenomenal
chaplains out there, and they're a right fit
at certain times. But I know if someone sat down
with me and they said, God has a plan, or Jesus,
insert thing here, if you're not really leaning
into that particular religion, that doesn't actually
help. It doesn't. It's just empty words to you.
you know, when it's someone of a certain faith
that you're not saying something that might work
in your congregation because they came to your
church because they are part of your faith. But
now you're talking to someone, whether from a
different faith or maybe they're agnostic or
whatever it is, those words may not be healing
for them at all. So, and I watched that happen
with one of my friends. It just made it worse.
Yeah. And that wasn't my experience. It was just
the follow -up piece. And that's like something
that I haven't heard talked about much, but it's
like, You know, we encourage people to ask for
help. But something that's really important to
understand is when you're in those low spots,
it is fucking hard to ask for help. So when someone's
desperate enough to actually ask for help and
then it's kind of just left and they're not circled
back to that may have been their last attempt.
You know what I mean? And and that I don't know.
I have to give credit to my wife for keeping
me. you know in it but if i was a single man
at that point i probably that probably would
have been the end of it because you know i was
just the the message was you're an inconvenience
you know i mean we we really don't give a fuck
we need someone to fill that next seat we'll
just hire the next young stud type of thing i
don't think people realize how detrimental um
organizational betrayal is if you actually kind
of break it down you think about us being a tribal
species you enter a profession where you literally
will lay down your life for the man or woman
to the right or left of you and for the people
that you're serving and then you know you have
this issue whether it's a back injury or whether
it's ptsd and now the tribe turns their back
on you if you look at ancient man when we were
excommunicated that meant death You know, so
it really is so crushing. What what kind of impact
did that part, you know, after you had your diagnosis,
this kind of lack of support have on your mental
health? I mean, it just it made it harder. Absolutely.
And I all I wanted was for them to be open to
understanding. You know, I mean, it was like
when I first was on light duty, I was like. I
was learning about meditation and breath work
and ice baths and sauna and float tanks and all
these other things. And part of like just the
person I am, it's like, yeah, I was in a shit
spot, but it's like, I still want to be productive
and do something. So I was studying all these
things. They were helping me. And I was like,
I wanted to present it to the department. And
it just, it kind of fell on deaf ears. um i'm
sorry dude i i lost what was the the question
um no the impact of this uh kind of organizational
betrayal this lack of support after you'd already
been diagnosed yeah it was it was that piece
of not feeling understood and like i spoke about
a little bit earlier i had i came from a divorced
family i was a lost young man the fire service
gobbled me up and i fell hook line sinker for
the brotherhood and the family and i felt that
at times for sure Um, but it was like going through
another divorce again, you know what I mean?
And it's like, it just made shit really fucking
tough when just, you know, a couple of weeks
prior, I was, I was on the box with you and we
were running calls and we were, we were sharing
hard times together and we were, we were brothers
and, you know, I was respected and all this shit.
And now I'm a fucking weirdo who's on light duty.
Everybody's avoiding me because If they talk
to me, you know, it's like any guy that would
talk to me and ask me about the process, I would
tell them what it was like. And it became obvious
to me that half my damn department needs help.
And no one wants to fucking ask for help. You
know what I mean? So it's just a mess. And that
that shit really hurt because I had found a new
family that gave me purpose. And then I was dropped
and I got fucking angry at the fire service.
You know what I mean? And and. Three years later
now and getting to do this work with Frederick
and getting to teach different fire departments,
it's like I'm re -finding that brotherhood, which
is what we need to do. Like, it is a brotherhood.
You know what I mean? We need to respect those
traditions and be playful and have a great time.
But you should also be able to cry with your
brother and laugh with him and dance with him.
You know what I mean? So it sucked. It really
hurt. a dream of coming back around to my old
station and, and getting them in on the work
I'm doing now, because again, no hard feelings.
It is what it is. You know, we lack the awareness
that sometimes and, and there's always room for
growth. So let's just help each other. You know
what I mean? Let's, let's do something about
this mental health crisis, be the chief, be the
department that jumps on the opportunity, you
know, like. it's going to be a few years now
where there's these shifts and you're going to
have department a with multiple suicides department
b everybody's doing great and from a financial
standpoint like come on again put some money
on the front end like empower your people we
all we everybody in this job wants to help like
what's let's We should be treating our first
responders like fucking athletes. They should
be getting massages in between calls and have
all these modalities that are able to help them
recover and sleep better and, you know, all these
just things to boost performance. We're athletes
as well. We need to be taking those things that
every top athlete and every top team's doing
and investing that in our people. You know what
I mean? Like, they... They lost me as a, as a
medic. And like, then you have to, you know,
hire a new kid and invest for him for 10 years.
So he gets to the knowledge I have just like,
you know what I mean? It's, it's so common sense
to me from this, you know, outside perspective
that if we just, the mental health thing is,
is so much more expensive on the back end than
on the front end. Yeah. Well, as you said in
your video, and I've said this many, many times,
if the way we do it worked, there wouldn't be
a Behind the Shield podcast because I wouldn't
have been to funerals. Everyone would be thriving.
I'd still be wearing the uniform. And my family
would be amazing and I'd be home all the time.
But that's not how it works. We're barely ever
home. We're seeing divorces and cancers and suicides
and overdoses and testosterone in the toilet
and addiction and all the other things that we
see because of the way that we've done it. When
people say to me, oh, have you got data? I'm
like, yeah, I've got a lot of data. Have you
seen the absolute fucking shit show that is the
fire service? There's your data. This is how
not to do it. Now let's start unfucking it and
actually making changes that will turn the ship
around. Yeah. I mean, that's the hope here. Again,
I keep repeating, we all got in this to help.
Don't be blind. We wouldn't have these shit statistics
we have if what we were doing was working. You
know what I mean? And it's like, I'm not saying
I have the answer. I could be wrong five years
from now. Maybe there's something different.
But from my point of view, from my own growth,
it's it's this, you know, emotional side of things.
It's this more gentle, softer side of things
that is going to allow us to come out of this
thing. And it's like. The more you can feel those
depths, the greater strength you gain. You actually
become stronger. That's what is so empowering
about this thing. By getting in touch with my
emotions, I'm able to raise a young man who isn't
pretending to be tough with all this guarding
and shielding when inside he's a hurt little
boy. I know you do jiu -jitsu. I do jiu -jitsu.
the most badass dude in the jujitsu gym is the
biggest sweetheart. And like, there's a reason
for that. You know what I mean? Cause he's not
pretending he's confident in himself. And it's
like, as firemen, that's what we need to be.
We need to be fucking emotionally intelligent.
So we're confident and capable to, to go to those
depths with people. Because again, you signed
up to do that. You signed up to go to the 911
call. You know, we just, no one told me this
shit when I started. Yeah. Well, I want to go
to the solutions that you found and we'll get
into TRE. Just before we do, you touched on,
you know, suicide ideation. I think it's important
to kind of just talk about this for a second.
You know, when we were young, the suicide conversation
was it was cowardly. It was selfish. How could
you think of the family? And then, I mean, I've
had over a thousand episodes now, arguably. More
than half of those were at that point. Some of
them even went through with their attempts and
survived. And I started seeing this massive common
denominator, which was after the combination
of contributing factors that led someone to true
suicide ideation. So sleep deprivation, unaddressed
childhood trauma, you know, organizational betrayal,
side effects of drugs, alcohol. I mean, all the
things that we know contribute. their brain became
miswired. Like it literally, their reality was
distorted to the point where they felt like they
were the reason for their family's pain. They
felt like they were a burden. And if they just
removed themselves from the equation, their family
would be happy. Makes no sense to a healthy brain,
makes perfect sense to them at that moment. When
you reflect now, was that voice starting to talk
to you in your ear and kind of, pour guilt and
shame onto a person who was already drowning
yeah no it's a that's a very important point
it's i think a lot of suicide it's it's like
it's it's not cowardice like you said it it comes
from like shame and it's you just you get into
this way where you do you think people would
be better off without you and the whole you know
your brain changes from these experiences and
that was something that was so enlightening to
me as i did my like i did neurofeedback and they
did a brain scan and you know i'm if you've ever
done neurofeedback they hook your head up to
like a souped up ekg machine and just like you
can see different heart rhythms you can see what
your brain's doing based on those rhythms and
i'm sitting there watching something on Netflix.
And anytime my brain would get distracted, the
screen would cover up with clouds. So from my
experience, I'm sitting there and everything's
fine. But then on the back end, when the doctor
shows me the scan, my amygdala is firing like
I'm in full flight or flight mode. And that's
what happens to us. Our brains change to where
like... being calm is a danger signal so we stay
hyper vigilant and it's just understanding that
ptsd isn't just some nonsense it's it's a physical
change to the brain is is a huge thing and if
you don't understand that there's no way in hell
you're going to heal because you don't recognize
that the same way your brain got like missed
wired you can reverse that process through neuroplasticity
through awareness um through different practices
so um yeah lost my train of thought there no
you rounded it off you did all right so you've
gone down this journey you've found counselors
you've done emdr you're talking about you know
cold plunges and some other things as well how
did you discover trauma release exercises and
let's walk down your path as a student and ultimately
a teacher So yeah, trauma release exercises,
it also stands for trauma and tension. So that's
something interesting because it's to do this
type of work. It isn't that you have to have
some trauma. We all are stressed the fuck out.
Stress shows up in your body as tension, whether
it's in your jaw, your shoulders, your hands,
whatever. So it's just a way to relieve some
tension. But it was out of desperation. You know,
I'm on light duty. I'm doing what I'm prescribed
to be doing. I'm taking the meds I'm supposed
to be taking. I'm still not in a good way. And
I just I don't know how found TRE on YouTube.
And again, out of desperation, I'll give it a
shot. What's the worst that can happen? And the
science of the nervous system kind of made sense
to me. It's just the experiences I've had, you
know, running the calls and shit. It just it
kind of was like, OK, it makes sense. We run
these calls. We absorb that energy into our nervous
system, however you want to call it. We tighten
up. We don't process the shit. It stays stuck
in the body, which tunes you up to be more sympathetic,
which leads to burnout and PTSD, essentially.
Found it on YouTube, seven simple exercises.
did the exercises laid down in the shaking position
and lo and behold, my body starts moving on its
own. And at first I'm like, what in the hell
is this? Am I doing this myself? You know, I
had my wife watching me. I'm like, just make
sure like nothing happens to me, you know, and
it's such a safe process that even though your
body's involuntarily shaking, you're able, you're
totally fine. You, you can stop the process at
any point and you're able to talk. you know while
you're doing it so did it the first session uh
the the shaking was like in my hips and it just
kind of was there i was i didn't get a whole
lot as far as healing out of that first session
but what i did get was holy fucking shit there's
stuff stuck in my body and i have never looked
at this as a way to heal but it was just it clicked
yes dude you got it's like we know like a pressure
tank right it has a relief valve it's like i
was about to have a blevy that's what a fucking
ptsd is you've never hit that relief valve um
and that relief valve it can be something like
tre where your your body is able to physiologically
release some stress um through movement essentially
and that that began a journey of doing the the
the TRE coupled with having a therapist who I
would, you know, talk to about it. She was aware
of it. So I would do my sessions. We'd unpack
it. I was continuing to do the EMDR. I was getting
my sleep right. My nutrition, you know, all these,
all these very basic things that we've neglected.
So like as a society, as a whole, that's why
we're so damn sick. And the fire service, we
do it on a whole nother level. Plus we add like,
a bazillion extra scoops of stress just because
of the job. So yeah, it, you know, led me to
doing the process. And then about, I guess it's
seven, eight months ago on your podcast, I heard
a man named Rob Buscelli or I'm sorry, Rob Cifoli.
And if anybody's heard that episode, Rob was
a captain for 20 years with FDNY. He's the he
was the director of health and wellness, I believe.
He ran their probie schools. He has his own traumatic
story. TRE, same as me, opened that door towards
healing for him. And when I heard him on your
podcast, I was like, you got it. You got to be
kidding me. FDNY is hooked up with this thing
because I was trying to bring it to my department
five years ago. And even though I did it with
a few guys on duty and they were all like, what
the fuck was that? The department as a whole
had no interest. So now I'm hooked up with Rob
and his cadre. Fire Tribe is the name of the
nonprofit. And we're essentially teaching TRE.
Rob and his guys from FDNY got direct training
with Dr. Purcelli, who's the inventor of the
technique. And I've been practicing myself for
some time. I've never... gotten training through
tre but working with rob i'm getting trained
up through them i saw felix manjares was on your
your cadre as well he's another amazing fdmy
wellness person yeah dude i met him for the first
time on this trip out to colorado and just they're
the whole team is it's just amazing i mean i
feel like a scrub with these guys i'm just some
dude from Florida, I barely ran fire, you know,
because that's what the job is in this area.
I was a damn good medic. You know, I could toot
my horn on that. But, I mean, these guys are
legends, honestly. And just to have their, you
know, that oomph of FDNY and these guys with
just the credentials they have, I'm really excited
because that, for a lot of firemen, it's like
you've got to get that buy -in first. you know
we're asking you to to sit on this mat and shake
in this weird way and you might tell us your
feelings like you got to trust us first and and
i think that tre has been a technique for a while
that's been around and there's a lot of people
trained in it and they have wanted to get into
these fields but i don't think they had the in
of a fireman speaking to another fireman which
is what we got going on right now which is exciting
because I mean, firemen have a certain language.
First responders have a certain language. If
you can't speak that language, we're not going
to listen to you. But, you know, Felix, Adrian,
Anthony, Rob and myself and everybody else, we're
getting linked up in this thing. We were firemen,
you know, so we speak the language we can. You
can listen to Dr. Brasselli talk about neurogenic
tremors and all these kind of things. Or I can
just speak to you as a fireman and be like, look,
did you got stress in your body? you can shake
it out. And then as you shake it out, it might
take the edge off to where you might be able
to tell me what's actually underneath and what's
bothering you. And then, okay, here we go. We're
working. So for people listening, give an overview
of what it is, what it does in layman's terms.
All right. So the easiest way that I can describe
it is like, if you've ever seen a dog shake during
a storm, That shaking mechanism is something
that humans have as well. It's a function of
the nervous system as a way to dissipate energy.
So along with Dr. Berselli, who's seen this phenomenon,
there's another man named Peter Levine. He has
a technique called somatic experiencing. And
his way of describing it is he saw a lion chase
a gazelle on the savannah. And once that gazelle
got to safety. The gazelle shook like crazy for
a few minutes, and then it goes about its way
like nothing ever happened. I forget the other
guy, maybe Robert Sapolsky, why zebras don't
get ulcers. Same kind of thing. They're not perseverating
about this experience and replaying it and restressing
the body. They let it go. Essentially, you let
it go. So TRE. through a series of exercises
from the bottom up. So starting at your feet,
going to your calves, going to your quads and
hamstrings, your glutes, you essentially create
a charge just much like doing a bicep curl after
five or six, you start to feel that bicep getting
a pump. That's the same feeling you get. And
then you lay down in the shaking position where
you're flat on your back, butt on the ground.
feet flat and your knees up in the air and your
body will start to release that story trauma.
And as it comes out, it may be, you know, you
may have flashbacks to a specific trauma. You
may just, your body just shakes and you get up
and you feel a little lighter. But the power
of the technique is that As first responders,
that thing we're talking about where you show
up on scene, it's a dead kid, you got to work
them, shut your emotions off, go robot mode,
get the job done. That process disconnects you
from yourself. You dissociate. A lot of us have
had this experience where you're in that like
third person kind of watching yourself do something.
So TRE brings you back into your body to where
you're able to. put one and one together and
recognize, oh, that stress or that feeling I
have in my chest is related to this call that
I suppressed that I'm holding on to. And it allows
you to start that process. When you're saying
that, as far as the physical exertion of the
stress, I've made this comparison when talking
about dispatch. When we do get, let's say, a
structure fire and you are throwing ladders,
you're pulling hose, you're doing searches, that
high level of stress, you do have a physical
offload. You have a physical exertion. Now you're
a dispatcher. You arrived before the sun came
up. You're in a building with no windows. You're
sitting in a chair and you're in California and
someone's screaming as the fires come and burn
them over. You have no way of offloading that
at all. So TRE sounds like an amazing tool for
the dispatch community too. Yeah. I mean, it's
anybody who has stress, like my wife was a teacher,
you know, the world right now is we're so stressed.
So the techniques works for anyone. That's why
I like to emphasize the tension part. Doesn't
have to be, you want to do this big trauma thing.
We all want to feel a little bit better in our
body. So it's, it's for everybody. And when you.
You saying that about dispatch is you're so spot
on, dude. I, I don't know how the hell they do
that. That it's, it's insane. And another one
that comes up for me is at my old department,
we have lifeguards and the lifeguards a lot of
time are younger than the fire guys. So you got
these like 18 year old children who go rescue
somebody out in front of their tower and then
go sit in that damn tower right after that traumatic
experience to just soak in it. And it's like,
it's, it's insane, but we just, we haven't as
a, the culture is waking up to it. Like this
idea of the body keeps the score, you know, this,
this is the whole conversation we're having.
We just, these, these services haven't even looked
at it before and we're just starting to. But
yeah, I mean. I feel for those people. And it's
I mean, at least as a fireman, you're with your
brothers and your sisters and you you're doing
something. You know, I mean, I couldn't imagine
being on the phone, like you said, like that.
It's just terrible. Well, you mentioned about
just coming back from Colorado, Frederick Firestone.
Talk to me about what you saw. You've been through
this journey. You've been doing your own kind
of exploration with this, you know, the TRE specifically.
What were some of the success stories that you
witnessed now you're actually bringing it to
a different side of the country? Yeah, I mean,
what comes to mind is with this this last two
day workshop we did in the workshop, we give
four different sessions. So you you get to do
the move, the shaking for about 20 minutes at
four separate occasions over the two days. So
we had a particular fellow who his first session.
So after we do the session, everybody kind of
goes around and shares their experience. Ninety
nine percent of the people their first time go,
that was weird. What the hell was that? That
that's weird. You know, was I doing it? Just
weird, weird, weird is what you get. And we come
to this last guy, you know, probably the 16,
17 person person to speak. And he goes, man,
I got angry. And it's like, OK, you know. And
that's this idea that whatever's under the surface,
just like psychedelics or breath work or even
an ice bath can do, when you kind of trigger
the nervous system in this way, it's like you
can, I describe it kind of like shaking up a
snow globe, right? Snow globe. It's like all
that stuff settled on the bottom and you can't
see the pretty flowers. Well, when you shake
that thing up, now all that stress and trauma
is in the air and it can be released now. And
then you see the pretty flowers, you know what
I mean? So, again, I lost where I was going then.
I'm talking about success stories. So the guy,
his first session, he was angry. Yes, yes, yes,
yes. So first session, anger. Second session,
a little bit more. So we encourage him. We tell
him, like, this is the process, man. Like, be
open and curious. Something that I experienced
and had to understand is, especially as men,
we... anger is an acceptable emotion in our society
as a man it's okay to be angry it's not okay
to be scared or sad or helpless or all these
things so i you know brought the idea to the
guy like hey man just be curious what's underneath
that anger you know i mean so he goes into his
next couple sessions um so his second session
less anger and more kind of sadness for Some
of the traumas in his life, like marital type
stuff and other things. And then by his fourth
session, he's expressing gratitude. So that,
I mean, it's hard to even believe, honestly,
to see him go through that experience. And the
second day after his fourth session, giving him
a big hug, the guy's got, you know, just a spark
back in his eyes. that's not to say that he's
done this. Like when you do this work, it's fucking
hard because you just opened and unpacked all
this shit and you better be ready to get to work
at it. So there's a huge piece about integration
after this thing that we're still figuring out
the best ways to do it. But I mean, that's a
success story. It's amazing to see, honestly.
And, you know, when he first started, When he
walks in the room, much like many of us other
firemen and women, everything's going good, high
-fiving. The dude looks like he's fine, but you
scratch the surface and we all have so much shit
that's causing us to be more of an asshole than
we would like to be. Doing this work is how you
start that process. It's not the only way, but
again, it's a way that... I think for the first
responder community is special because it's a
bottom up approach as opposed to a top down approach,
like a more cognitive type therapy. And a lot
of us are so charged up that it's hard to even
access the words to express what the hell we
went through. So TRE is like a way to hit that
pressure relief valve. You know, you let off
some of that steam. Maybe you the call you thought
you were over comes back into your mind. And
it's like, OK, there's a reason it came back
because it's still stuck in your body. So now,
you know, be so have some compassion for yourself.
Have a process on the back end, journaling, having
a therapist ready to talk to you, having a loved
one who can listen, you know, and just. It's
amazing. I hope that that guy is continuing to
do better, you know what I mean? Because, again,
the shit was already there. So he was already
doing this heroic job as a fire medic with all
this shit. So hopefully he can release some of
it and continue to do that job at an even better
level with less likely that he's going to get
hurt or, you know, fuck something up because
he's so jumbled up in his own head. That's so
great to hear. And yeah, I mean, like you said,
whether it's psychedelics, whether it's MDMA,
whether it's TRE, I think this is the misconception
is, oh, we found the magic bullet, the magic
pill. It's like, no, you just opened the closet
door. Now you've got to get someone to help sort
through and throw away what's needed anymore
and make sure that you keep and polish the things
that are the beautiful memories. But yeah, I
mean. There's this being an ongoing work in progress
and then you have another life event happen and
it sets you back again. That's okay. It's being
a human being, but it's not going to be, you
know, do TRE and now you're living a Disney life.
That's never, never spent, you know, meant to
be the message, but adding that tool to your
toolbox as you work your way through. And I think
this is what I've said a lot recently. What I
love about these conversations is it puts hope
into trauma. I truly believe that when you do
the work, your trauma does become resilience
or a strength, that gold glue on the Japanese
bars. So if it's exciting to get to the new version
of you, the 2 .0, which is different, as you
said, because you've been a firefighter, you've
been a cop, we're never going to be your 18 -year
-old self, but I would argue you're going to
be a better self. Now you're a beacon of light.
you know, oozing compassion and empathy and you're
strong because you've been through this journey,
that is exciting. That isn't, well, I just live
with my PTSD and, you know, very, very sad story.
That is like, fuck, have you seen who they are
now? That I think really is inspirational for
us to actually dive into the work, be courageous
and have that metamorphosis. Yeah, for sure.
I mean, the shit you go through is what is the
fertilizer for your growth, right? Like it's...
And again, we kind of talked about the framing
effect earlier. It's your choice, whether it's,
you know, you're in that victim mindset or fuck,
you know, this is an opportunity. This is a challenge.
What do I need to learn? And that's, you know,
that's the hero's journey. That's post -traumatic
growth. And yeah, it's like to be on that other
side, I'm by no means healed. I have anxiety
out the ass all the time. But I have more tools
to deal with it. And I have the ability to speak
about it. And getting to do that, it's like it's
just empowering. And I kind of talked about it
a little bit with the old or the route I was
given through workers comp is it puts you in
a victim mindset, because when you get told you're
you have anxiety, you have depression. You have
sleep things, blah, blah, blah. Here's the solution,
a pill that comes from outside of yourself that
now you're relying on. That takes your power
away. And the shit that I advocate is this shit
is hard. This inner work shit is hard. Fire him
in the fuck up. Here are a bunch of tools, TRE,
breathwork, journaling, nature, whatever it is,
psychedelics. talk therapy, EMDR, neurofeedback,
whatever it is, it's on you to, to figure out
what works and get to work. You know what I mean?
It's not, there is, there's like a spiritual
saying that there's many ways up the mountain,
but there's, you know, there's one mountaintop,
right? Like that's the same thing with healing.
There's many modalities that can bring you healing,
which is ultimately better understanding yourself
doing that inner work um so i don't care what
you do i don't care if you think tre is nonsense
um if you think it's nonsense then tell me what
you're doing that works because i would like
to try it and that that route is so fucking empowering
dude because as i started to find the things
that worked for me like tai chi was one of them
at first it's like what is this weird thing Why
am I being drawn to this? Why do after I do this
at five in the morning on the beach prior to
shift those days, I'm actually able to get the
keys and be cool, calm and collected. So what
the you know, this looks weird. I look like a
weirder on the beach, but it's working for me.
You know, so I encourage people. I always tell
them it's like you have to have a top three for
your stress management. What are your you're
going to have a shit day. The kids are going
to be too much. the wife, the job, whatever,
the mandatory, this and that. What are your top
three things that help you get back to that baseline
so that you can fill your cup so that you can
then take care of others? And I guarantee most
people in the service, they would not have an
answer for that question. You know, I mean, it
would probably be something like they'd laugh
about it and say, oh, go get fucked up. Or, you
know, do one of these strategies that we've done.
Go drive too fast or go beat the shit out of
somebody at a bar or something that's, you know,
a negative coping mechanism. Absolutely. Well,
talk to me about conscious movements. So conscious
movements is, I mean, it organically grew out
of me finding my own healing path. And it then
lined up perfectly with TRE because TRE is essentially
bringing awareness and consciousness back to
the body through movement. But you can do that
through many modalities. Again, the magic sauce
is attention. And meditation taught me that,
that where you place your attention is where
you place your power. What you put your attention
on is what's going to grow. conscious movements
is learning to use your awareness to tune into
your body to recognize what your body's communicating
to you right so like i said at one point stress
shows up in the body as tension until you bring
awareness to that tension you're unable to unwind
it right um so i tell i love this story it's
so it's so simple and but it's it's funny it
was so funny when it happened to me so I'm on
this idea of conscious movements, attention,
awareness, all these things, Tai Chi. And one
day I just realized when I was brushing my teeth,
it's like I have a death grip on the toothbrush.
And it just occurred to me, dude, like, soften
up. Why are you so tense? But I was unaware of
that, right? And that's what happens with stress
is we internalize this tension. And we lose the
sensitivity. And we don't even know that we're
breathing in a pattern that's stressful, that's
leading the body to further stress, which was
an epiphany for me with my panic attacks. No
one told me when I started working with the therapist
that, hey, dude, a mouth breath up in your chest
is a stress response. You know what I mean? You're
signaling to your body. Dump cortisol, dump adrenaline,
get us fucking going. We're in danger. So if
you are breathing in that pattern all day, no
shit, you're going to have a panic attack. And
until you shift your breathing, which unless
you have awareness of it, you have no opportunity
to shift it, the body is going to do what you're
asking it to do. So conscious movements is using
movement to become more aware of your body. And
then through understanding how the autonomic
nervous system functions, you can start to recognize
what state you're in, whether you're in a stress
state or a relaxed state. So an easy one, like
I said, the breath. So if you if you if I ask
everybody listening to take a deep breath right
now, if you don't breathe into your belly and
through your nose and if you're breathing up
in your chest through your mouth high and tight.
you're in a stress state. When you're in that
stress state, your brain is functioning in a
different way to where you're more animal -like.
You're more reactive and you're less able to
use the higher cognitive functions of your brain.
So as a fireman, if you're going to a rock and
fire and on the way to the call, you're in the
back of the rig going... When you get off that
rig, you're going to be less aware, right? We
talk about situational awareness. So this work
of understanding the breath, being aware of your
body, being able to use your breath to toggle
the nervous system, essentially, will help you
to recognize that relaxed parasympathetic state
in your body and you get better at grounding
that feeling. And it also help you when you're
going to the call and you see yourself revving
up and you're able to use, you know, maybe you
you relieve some of that tension through like
shaking your shoulders or doing a fire breath
from yoga or whatever it is. Essentially, you're
using something to downregulate that nervous
system. And that's that's going to make you more
effective at whatever it is you're doing. So
conscious movements, are you coaching now under
that banner? Yeah, so that, like I said, grew
out organically. That's my business now. I train
people. First off, I created a conscious movements
class, which all this stuff I'm talking about,
I try to give the people the experience of that
through movement. So we start off nice and slow,
the Tai Chi, kind of gentle movement, awareness.
And then we get into more like... Jiu -jitsu
style, like gymnastica natural, animal flow,
these type of kind of a more intense yoga. And
what I'm trying to do there is get people's heart
rates high, right? And then the last portion
of the class, I have people do like high intensity
stuff to really jack that heart rate up. Then
we immediately drop into a meditation where I
walk people through the awareness of their breath.
and how they can shift their breathing to regulate
their nervous system. So hopefully through the
class, you're able to, one, recognize what are
the signatures of stress in your own body. For
me, tight chest, tight jaw, like that's my body
in a stress state. For you, it might be your
stomach rumbling. It might be your mind racing.
It might be your breathing that you notice. Whatever
it is, the more in tune you get with that the
better you are able to manage your body right
um so that's that's the idea through the movement
um so i was teaching that class as a as a regular
thing at my jiu jitsu gym for about two years
um and i got good at it and i really enjoyed
it but then it started to lose a little bit of
its luster for me because it kind of became just
like a workout class for people. So when I teach
that now, I try to do it more as like a seminar
thing where I share my story because it's a tool,
right? And the tool is self -regulation. And
there's a science to that. And there's ways that
you can get better at self -regulating. So I
don't teach the class on a regular anymore. I
do it when I have an opportunity. to present
in a different forum but in addition to doing
the stuff with the fire tribe guys my main work
right now is i work as a health coach under my
conscious new movement business uh for a group
home so for uh foster boys so it's been amazing
honestly because everything i talk about all
this trauma and all these these skills that i've
used to to you know get my life back i get to
now teach to these young men who are 13 to 18
who have been through worse shit than i've been
through um and um our our our um our group home
is called healthy group home project and we really
try to impart all this stuff that i'm trying
to teach to the fire service good sleep hygiene
good diet you know exercise You know, some type
of inner work practice, you know, sauna, steam
room, TRE, all the things. So getting to work
with these young men has been amazing, honestly.
I mean, that's what I get to do on a regular
basis, train with these boys and try to help
them become men. Rob said this the other day,
and I'm going to steal it from him. So I'm giving
you credit, Rob. We were just talking about this.
we've had this narrative of like man up, but
really you should not be telling a young man
or a young woman to man up. You should be teaching
them how to be a man. And that's this shift that's
kind of going on. I've always loved that phrase.
Don't say what's wrong with you. Ask what happened
to you. And if you think about a group of children
in foster homes, just the simple element of why
wasn't I good enough? can be crushing to a young
person. And we hear it all the time when people
are older in this profession. So I think this
mentorship is so important. We have this multi
-generational trauma thing going on. That was
one of the big themes of my last book. There's
a whole multi -generational trauma backstory
to it. If you understand the origin story and
then, you know. through generations you can stop
those dominoes from falling so i love what you're
doing with the foster homes is there's a beautiful
opportunity whatever the generational pain got
them to where they are that they can heal themselves
and and then their children hopefully will be
on a completely different trajectory yeah the
uh the analogy i always give these kids because
it is it is tough you know it's hard to find
the silver lining and you know, look at your
shitty life as an opportunity. But I always tell
them like, look, dudes, when you guys play video
games, you don't choose the easy levels, right?
Like you put it on hard because that's where
the better prizes are. That's where the, you
know, the cooler gear and the better moves and
all the shit is on that hard level. So like,
be it what it is, your karma, whatever you want
to call it, you ended up in this life. You know,
it's an opportunity. I'm playing on hard mode,
you know, but that's going to give me better
skills. So it's, again, it's a big part of it
is that framing and how you choose to look at
your reality. 100%. Well, I'd love to throw some
quick closing questions at you before I let you
go. Let's do it, man. All right. The first one
I'd love to ask, is there a book or are there
books that you love to recommend? It can be related
to our discussion today or completely unrelated.
Yeah, so I'll give the two books that, I guess
three books that absolutely changed my life.
They allowed me to, everything we were talking
about today, it gave me the framework to start
to understand this shit so that I could heal.
So the first one is The Body Keeps the Score,
which most people know about. Bessel van der
Kolk is his name. And it's that idea right there.
completely gave me the like understanding of
why TRE was so powerful. It made sense. Okay.
Yeah. This, my body has held this stress because
every time I did the heroic thing and shut my
emotions off, that energy had to go somewhere.
And if you don't release it, which is what crying
is, right. It's like literally coming out of
your body. If you don't release that, it stays
stuck in the body. The body keeps the score.
So that one is a must read for anybody interested
in this work. The second one is Peter Levine,
Waking the Tiger. And I kind of shared about
that, the story of the gazelle and the lion.
So he talks about that. He talks about a very
powerful concept called titration. which as paramedics,
you know what it is to titrate a drug, right?
So with trauma, sometimes going back into that
situation, you know, trying to process it can
be too much and can be over traumatizing or re
-traumatizing. So when we do TRE, it's helpful
to ground yourself in a positive emotion. So
when that tough situation comes up, It's like
we want to titrate that effect. We want to touch
into that trauma and then come back to our groundedness
and our resilience so that you can change the
narrative of that trauma in a way. So his his
work is phenomenal. He also has a an autobiography
called An Autobiography of Trauma, I believe.
Again, Peter Levine. And then the book that gave
me the. Scientific Underpinnings of Understanding
Stress is called The Stress of Life by Hans Seyle,
I believe it is, S -E -Y -L -E or something like
that. But he was essentially the pioneer of understanding
stress. He's the guy that came up with the concept
of eustress and distress, the concept of cumulative
stress. So those books. Without those books,
I wouldn't have had the awareness to recognize
there was other ways of healing. I would have
just submitted to the professionals, right? Because
why else? My brain is broken right now. You're
the professional. Like, why wouldn't I listen
to you? But just happenstance, you know, good
luck, whatever it is. my life journey. It's just,
I was aware enough to look into those other resources
and, and the beautiful, like combine, you know,
bridging the gap of these two things again, just
like we got to be bad asses, but we also got
to do the emotional work. We got to get this
stress out of our bodies, but we also got to
bridge it with the Western medicine, right? Like
when I'm in crisis mode. and my doctor puts me
on some pills to help me calm down, that is helpful,
yes, as a bridge to then get me more skills to
empower me with a long -term goal of, look, dude,
we're going to do this. In a couple months, we're
going to taper you down. In a couple months from
then, you're going to be off the meds as you're
building this resilience through skills. You
know what I mean? That's what we need to do.
We don't need to go all woo -woo and just say
blast everybody with psychedelics or just simply
do breath work and you'll be fine. We need to
use everything and bridge the gap, you know what
I mean? Because we do have a materialistic component
to ourselves where it's very, you know, neurotransmitters
and chemicals and this and that. But there is
this more ephemeral side to healing, which is
a spiritual journey. And that's hard to even
talk about, but it's part of it, right? Absolutely.
Well, we talked about books. What about films
and documentaries? So this is interesting. I
haven't thought about this movie in a long time,
but the thought that comes up is a movie called
A Bronx Tale. And it's I mean, it's one of my
favorite movies, just being an Italian kid and,
you know, liking the mafia stuff and all that
kind of thing. It's a movie like that, but it
has so much heart because. The main line of the
of the movie is the worst thing is in life is
wasted talent. And that's kind of a theme that's
run through my life is. you know, I don't want
to waste my talent. Yeah. I've been through some
shit as a kid, as a, you know, as a fireman and
all that, but I'm not going to waste my talent
and let that take me out. I'm going to, you know,
alchemize that pain, transmute it into something
and bring it back to the people I care about.
So, and it's just a cool old school, you know,
New York Bronx, they fight the bikers. Like it's,
it's one of my favorite movies. Brilliant. Well,
speaking of awesome people, is there a person
that you'd recommend to come on this podcast
as a guest to speak to the first responders,
military and associated professions of the world?
I guess the first person that comes to mind is
a man named Paul Cech. He's like a world renowned
holistic kind of trainer guy, but I mean, as
deep as it gets. I've gone through some of his
holistic lifestyle coaching, which just it gives
you such a strong foundation of understanding.
You know, if you don't have the building blocks
of health, like you're never going to have good
mental health if you're eating shit and you're
not sleeping and you're eating processed garbage.
And, you know, he he the guy's a genius, man.
Like I anything by Paul Cech I would look into.
And I hope one day to get to sit down with the
guys. So maybe we'll make it all happen. But
yeah, he's the first guy that comes to mind for
me. He was on my radar for a bit and I have never
actually tried to reach out, but I had Mike Salemi
on a couple of times. So I need to reach out
to him and see if I can make that connection.
I've had some conversations with Mike and Mike's
the same thing. Mike's amazing. He's a tuned
in guy and it's... he's a protege of Paul check.
So like, if you like anything, so let me, he's
doing like, he got a lot of that from Paul check.
Just like most of the shit you hear me repeat
is, you know, stuff I heard from somebody smarter
than myself, but something that Paul checks talks
about a lot is like, don't listen to the shit
I'm saying and take it on. You know, don't trust
me. Try the shit I'm saying, you know, I think
the biggest thing that I learned from him is
it's like there's no specific modality. It's
whatever gets you in touch with your inner knowing.
That is the compass. You know, I mean, like there's
so much talk about this diet and that diet. The
thing you should be doing is eat the food, pay
attention to how you feel. The ones that make
you feel good, eat those ones. If you eat something
that makes you feel like shit. Don't eat it.
You know what I mean? So don't be worried about
the dogma. Trust yourself, right? Like, and it's
like the more you practice that and the more
you polish the mirror, like a Zen saying, like
the greater your ability to know what's going
to be good for you becomes. Absolutely. Well,
the very last question before we make sure everyone
knows where to find you and conscious movements,
what do you do to decompress? So obviously TRE
is up there for me. Meditation is huge. I mean,
I think it's kind of like when I, with health
and fitness, it's like a while ago, like people
didn't exercise. And I mean, obviously the number
of people who exercise is still abysmal, but
we understand exercising is good for your health.
We in the West don't know how to work with the
mind, but the Eastern religions figured that
shit out. Like meditation is how you work with
your mind. So I think you have to have that component
to be a healthy person. So meditation's a huge
one. TRE. I mean, I love doing sauna, ice bath,
which I experience or I view those maybe a little
different than most people. um i know there's
health benefits but i really don't care about
it again how do i feel when i do an ice bath
i feel better so i don't you mean like you can
get so mixed up and do it at this time do it
at that time only do it for this or that but
do you feel good when you do it you know what
i mean and and the bigger thing for me is is
the mental challenge of it right like it's it's
that same piece as meditation like You're going
to get that voice every time you do the ice bath.
Don't do it. You know, it's why do you have to
do it today? Whatever you should, you'll be fine.
Just do it tomorrow. No one knows. Again, that
becomes, can you be aware of that? And then make
the courageous decision prior to that. No, I'm
going to do it. And as you do that, you just
get more and more skilled at it. So I see ice
baths and sauna as just another way of working
with your mind. And then training your nervous
system, right? Understanding how the nervous
system works. When you're in a sauna, can you
keep your breath in that regulated, calm, parasympathetic
state? The longer you can do that, the more aware
of an operator you're going to be in a LDH situation
when you're in a fire. You have that ability
to practice bringing yourself down. I'm in the
sauna for 30 minutes and now I'm hot as hell
and I'm ready to get out. And my mind's like,
dude, just get out, get out, get out. All right.
Can I take two more breaths? Oh shit. Let me
take three more breaths. And that's resiliency,
right? You know? And so I would say those, I
mean, there's many other, I was fortunate enough
after the two days in Colorado, I got a day to
go hike a bear peak, which was unreal. So disconnecting
and getting in nature. Yeah, I mean, there's
so many and that's the thing. Find out what works
for you. You know, there's so many things that
work. So just the bigger thing is being less
tied to a specific strategy and be more curious
about your felt sense when you do the thing and
follow that thing. You know what I'm saying?
Absolutely. All right. Well, then for people
listening, if they want to reach out to you,
learn more about you, find Conscious Movements,
where are the best places online or on social
media? So my website is conscious -movements
.com. I share a little bit, I mean, about this
conversation. I have a little bio about my fire
service and all the stuff we talked about on
there. And then I have links to a bunch of different
videos that have been helpful for me. I have
all the books that I've read that relate to all
this stuff. And every single book on there was
kind of like a breadcrumb from the universe for
me. So they're almost in chronological order
of how I read them. So anything you see on there
will help you on this journey and it'll spark
your mind. um to you know a different way of
healing um so my website you can check that out
and then conscious movements on instagram and
then fire tribe is our non -profit that i'm hooked
up with the guys from fdny um so i that's that's
the biggest thing i'm pushing right now that's
the biggest project going i mean i have full
-time work with my conscious movements so i don't
i don't i don't have any more room for clients
I have a full time schedule with a beautiful
wife and two beautiful kids. So Fire Tribe, though,
I really want to push that out. I really want
to grow that. And we are looking to come share
this with any department who's interested. Right
now, we're doing it for free. I mean, obviously,
we need help with travel expenses, but we're
not looking to make money. We're looking to give
back. and part of our slogan is we're here to
help and that's again from the beginning of our
conversation we're just here we want to help
right so we want to help our our brothers and
sisters um and it's been it's been cool man it's
as it's happening it's it's going in a really
beautiful unfolding so it's it's check it out
brilliant Well, I want to thank you so much,
mate, not only for, you know, storytelling, the
TRE and some of the other kind of therapeutic
elements that we've discussed today, but also
for your courageous vulnerability and talking
about, you know, your highs and your lows. I
think it's so important for people to hear these
lived experience. And then, as I mentioned earlier,
the hope of post -traumatic growth, finding your
own unique toolbox. So I want to thank you so,
so much for being so generous with your time
today and coming on the Behind the Shield podcast.
man it's it's amazing um the listeners like they
don't know we tried to do this a couple weeks
ago and we had a bunch of gremlins but it's it's
all in perfect timing so getting to have this
conversation i mean i literally flew back home
yesterday so this experience is so you know still
fresh in my mind and and getting to share it
with you has been really really cool man and
I used to be afraid to share this dream because
I used to think, who the fuck am I to say this?
But my dream is to change the culture for the
first responder community. And it's happening,
man. And you've been a big part of that. And
like you said, these conversations, having the
balls to share your story is really special.
It's such a healing thing. I encourage anybody
to do it and you will have the imposter syndrome.
You know what I mean? Like I've been telling
my story for a couple of years now and I still
have that voice in the back of my head. Like,
dude, no one, no one gives a shit. But anytime
I hear somebody else share vulnerably and honestly,
I'm it's you. Thank you. You know what I mean?
So yeah. I appreciate it, man. And I hope to
continue this conversation. And I hope the fire
service can do better. And, you know, respect
the badge, right? Like, we're privileged to wear
it. So let's honor it. And let's take care of
our fellow brother and sister. And let's spread
some more love in this world.