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I'll spell that to you because it's not as you

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think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome

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to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,

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my name is James Gearing and this week it is

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my absolute honor to welcome back onto the show

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Marine veteran, FBI special agent, and the author

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of Investigating America's Most Notorious Strip

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Club, Mark Seawall. Now in this conversation,

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we discuss a host of topics from his journey

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into the military, his transition into the FBI,

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investigating gangs, human trafficking, the mafia,

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and so much more. Now, before we get to this

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incredible conversation, as I say every week,

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please just take a moment, go to whichever app

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you listen to this on, subscribe to the show,

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leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single

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five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,

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therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library of well over 1 ,000

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episodes now. So all I ask in return is that

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you help share these incredible men and women's

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stories so I can get them to every single person

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on planet Earth who needs to hear them. And yes,

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my voice sounds terrible. I have the man flu,

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by the way. So with that being said, I introduce

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to you Mark Sewell. Enjoy. Well, Mark, I want

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to start by saying thank you so much for taking

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the time and coming on the Behind the Shield

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podcast today. Well, you're very welcome, and

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I look forward to it. Thanks for having me. So

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where on planet Earth are we finding you this

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afternoon? Planet Earth. You always say that,

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and it always makes me smile when you say that.

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I am in Lumberton, Texas, which you're not going

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to know where that's at. You're an Ocala, Florida

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guy. If you get on Interstate 10 and you drive

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west, the first city of any size that you come

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to in Texas is going to be Beaumont, Texas. And

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I'm in that metro Beaumont area. I'm familiar

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with that. Southeast Texas. Yeah, yeah. 10 will

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take you obviously all the way to San Diego.

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So I'm the first city in Texas when you're on

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I -10. Yeah, I drove all the way out to work

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for Anaheim Fire back in 2005 and then drove

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back to Florida in 2008. So I probably went through

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Beaumont twice, if I'm not mistaken. So it's

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amazing how Texas is green for a bit and then

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brown and yellow for about, it felt like about

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15 weeks. Yeah. it's it's roughly a thousand

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miles across no matter which direction you're

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going north south or east west so uh and it does

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change in those thousand miles you're right that's

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funny all right well i'd love to start the very

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beginning of your journey so tell me where you

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were born and tell me a little bit about your

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family dynamic what your parents did how many

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siblings yeah i was i was born in arkansas i

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don't know how many guests you've had that come

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from arkansas But there's an area in South Arkansas,

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North Texas, North Louisiana called the Arcla

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Tech area, Arkansas, Louisiana, Texas, Arcla

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Tech. There's companies, utilities. That's a

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cultural there in that part of the states where

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those three states come together. It's called

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the Arcla Tech area. And that's where all my

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family's from. That's where I was born. Through

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a series of, my dad was a wildcatter and a roughneck,

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if you know what that is. He was in the oil business.

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And when I was young, and we moved around a lot

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when I was young, even though that Arklatec area

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was home, he was chasing oil out in West Texas,

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New Mexico, Oklahoma. But we settled down in

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Houston, which is obviously the oil capital of

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America. And I grew up most of my teenage years

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or all of my teenage years in the Houston area.

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And it was from there that I joined the Marines

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and left after high school. Mother, father, my

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father was a blue collar guy like I just described.

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My mother was a waitress in a Mexican restaurant

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for 20 years, locally owned family little thing

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where everybody knows everybody. And I had one

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brother. He died in 2009. He's older. He's six

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years older than me. And it was just the two

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brothers. So a family of four. I had someone

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on the show recently and I asked him a question

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because when I've posted stuff about the working

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conditions, especially at the fire service and

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how our hours have just got crazier and crazier

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with this understaffing that's going on at the

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moment. I've had a few snide comments and it's

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always been from guys that work. the oil rigs

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or you know in the oil fields yeah so i asked

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him well you know that kind of comment reminds

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me of the old school fire service that were rolling

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their eyes when we were talking about mental

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health and you know all that kind of alcoholism

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and then here we are now we've grown up and we're

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talking about it when you reflect on the environment

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that your dad worked in was there an element

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of health or was it very much that old school

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kind of grind yourself into the ground mentality

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the majority was what was your former grind yourself

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into the ground i remember hearing my dad say

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the reason he left that business was because

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he got tired of seeing people lose fingers and

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hands because it was a very unregulated unsafe

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business it was work all day long uh you i mean

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these guys chased that lifestyle because there

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was money to be made for sure but it was a very

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unregulated business and you could work all day

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long and of course it was just a heavy heavy

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machinery moving fast uh you had fatigue and

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all the factors that go with it and it created

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a danger dangerous environment and um somewhere

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in his early to mid 30s he finally decided i'm

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not going to live long or have all my appendages

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if i keep doing this and he'd been doing this

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since he was 18. right after high school so he

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he had spent well over a decade in the oil business

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so he was he knew what he was talking about so

00:10:10.509 --> 00:10:12.889
it's a it's but it was mostly like you said it

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was it was 100 miles an hour you know be damned

00:10:15.830 --> 00:10:20.970
was it was the juice worth the squeeze or ultimately

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was most of the money still going to the people

00:10:23.149 --> 00:10:30.659
towards the top of the pyramid Yeah, I think

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the juice was worth the squeeze for most people

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because they ended up being lifers because the

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money was worth the element of danger. But my

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father was really not motivated by finances.

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He was, hey, if I can pay my bills, I'm a happy

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at the end of the day type of guy. And his health,

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really, not because he was a fitness guy. uh

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because he died early in his life from a heart

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attack but uh his health it is his appendages

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was more important than a nice paycheck when

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you reflect back now and the reason i ask this

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a lot of us in in uniform um you know when we

00:11:15.889 --> 00:11:18.549
get in deeper into our career a lot of us struggle

00:11:18.549 --> 00:11:20.629
and when when that conversation is brought up

00:11:20.629 --> 00:11:24.570
it's like oh you had that you know that uh perp

00:11:24.570 --> 00:11:26.309
that you had to go into that house where those

00:11:26.309 --> 00:11:29.450
people were killed whatever the scene is but

00:11:29.450 --> 00:11:31.970
actually when you kind of learn more about the

00:11:31.970 --> 00:11:34.730
men and women that we serve alongside a lot of

00:11:34.730 --> 00:11:37.850
us have had some struggles early in life which

00:11:37.850 --> 00:11:39.909
can absolutely just become an asset if they're

00:11:39.909 --> 00:11:43.370
processed you know healthily but if it's buried

00:11:43.370 --> 00:11:45.289
down obviously it can be a kind of fracture to

00:11:45.289 --> 00:11:48.049
the foundation when you reflect on your early

00:11:48.049 --> 00:11:53.669
life were there any elements of that Hmm. It's

00:11:53.669 --> 00:11:55.649
almost like somebody gave you a list of questions

00:11:55.649 --> 00:12:00.190
to ask me, James. That's a good one. Yeah. It

00:12:00.190 --> 00:12:04.889
was a rough lifestyle growing up in that wildcatting

00:12:04.889 --> 00:12:07.769
environment. And then when my dad left the wildcatting

00:12:07.769 --> 00:12:11.629
environment, roughneck, maybe roughnecking is

00:12:11.629 --> 00:12:14.669
probably the better word. He went into heavy

00:12:14.669 --> 00:12:17.950
equipment, but it was still different. He was

00:12:17.950 --> 00:12:23.059
a earth mover. drag lines, bulldozers, but it

00:12:23.059 --> 00:12:25.820
was safer. You know, you were inside a cab, you

00:12:25.820 --> 00:12:32.460
were working in a slower business and that made

00:12:32.460 --> 00:12:38.419
it safer. And where I'm going with that in regards

00:12:38.419 --> 00:12:43.240
to your question was when they were in that roughneck

00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:46.559
world, there's been a couple of movies that have

00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:49.730
been made by Hollywood. One was called the iron

00:12:49.730 --> 00:12:55.169
orchard, I think, or something to that effect,

00:12:55.490 --> 00:12:58.750
that talk about how rough that lifestyle was.

00:12:58.830 --> 00:13:01.710
It was work all day and then drink all night.

00:13:02.110 --> 00:13:05.269
And that meant, you know, carousing, womanizing,

00:13:05.529 --> 00:13:08.129
fighting, and all the things that go with that.

00:13:08.490 --> 00:13:11.669
And inevitably that, you know, and I can remember

00:13:11.669 --> 00:13:14.330
that coming home into my environment as well,

00:13:14.370 --> 00:13:18.220
that lifestyle. And frankly, I remember my dad

00:13:18.220 --> 00:13:22.139
saying that was also a part of the reason he

00:13:22.139 --> 00:13:25.279
left that lifestyle. It was not conducive to

00:13:25.279 --> 00:13:29.759
a family. So I was exposed to that and I remember

00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:35.019
it. I don't think I suppressed it, but I was

00:13:35.019 --> 00:13:39.179
able to vent it through athletics and some outdoor

00:13:39.179 --> 00:13:42.220
activities and things of that nature. uh but

00:13:42.220 --> 00:13:46.399
um not many people not many families in that

00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:48.679
business stay together for the long term it's

00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:51.659
just not conducive yeah i mean there are so many

00:13:51.659 --> 00:13:53.580
parallels this is so interesting when you kind

00:13:53.580 --> 00:13:56.519
of expand who comes on the show to all fields

00:13:57.409 --> 00:13:59.250
There, you know, there's so many professions

00:13:59.250 --> 00:14:01.529
that they have elements that we have in the first

00:14:01.529 --> 00:14:03.529
responder professions. And I said to someone

00:14:03.529 --> 00:14:05.929
recently when we're talking about trying to,

00:14:05.929 --> 00:14:08.710
you know, to make changes proactively in the

00:14:08.710 --> 00:14:10.769
first responder and in law enforcement fields.

00:14:11.669 --> 00:14:14.129
Imagine going to your local grocery store or

00:14:14.129 --> 00:14:17.049
bank for a job and they say, oh, you wait in

00:14:17.049 --> 00:14:18.870
10 years, you'll be on your third marriage and

00:14:18.870 --> 00:14:21.389
have an alcohol problem. You know, you'd be like,

00:14:21.470 --> 00:14:23.649
OK, I'm not going to go work for Bank of America

00:14:23.649 --> 00:14:26.169
after all. That sounds terrible. But in our field,

00:14:26.269 --> 00:14:28.230
I'm sure, you know, when you first died, that

00:14:28.230 --> 00:14:30.850
was a running joke. And you hear about this in

00:14:30.850 --> 00:14:34.470
the wildland community and the oil rigs and some

00:14:34.470 --> 00:14:36.850
of these other professions where you're asking

00:14:36.850 --> 00:14:39.830
people to do, you know, so much. And then their

00:14:39.830 --> 00:14:41.750
kind of relief valve obviously ends up leaning

00:14:41.750 --> 00:14:46.450
into unhealthy practices. Yeah, you're absolutely

00:14:46.450 --> 00:14:48.610
right. Two things come to mind when you say that.

00:14:49.629 --> 00:14:51.690
One a little bit more morbid, the other one a

00:14:51.690 --> 00:14:55.429
little bit funnier. My brother. I told you earlier,

00:14:55.529 --> 00:14:58.350
he's dead now. He drank himself to death. He

00:14:58.350 --> 00:15:02.730
worked that environment. He also had a TBI, traumatic

00:15:02.730 --> 00:15:05.950
brain injury, when he was a teenager, and that

00:15:05.950 --> 00:15:09.610
altered the course of his life. But he was in

00:15:09.610 --> 00:15:11.789
that heavy equipment, worked a little bit with

00:15:11.789 --> 00:15:16.690
the oil as well, and got infected by that lifestyle.

00:15:18.070 --> 00:15:20.269
The other thing that comes to mind as you say

00:15:20.269 --> 00:15:22.649
that that's kind of humorous, if you will, is

00:15:22.649 --> 00:15:25.659
I saw a meme. Some time ago, I have it on my

00:15:25.659 --> 00:15:29.139
phone and it showed a little boy that was probably

00:15:29.139 --> 00:15:33.840
10, 11 years old. And he was it was like dress

00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:36.659
up day at school to dress like your dress like

00:15:36.659 --> 00:15:39.899
your father, you know, come dressed as a firefighter,

00:15:39.899 --> 00:15:42.399
come dressed as a police officer, whatever it

00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:46.259
might be. So this this boy is wearing a dress

00:15:46.259 --> 00:15:49.539
shirt with an open collar. the first button is

00:15:49.539 --> 00:15:52.799
open and his tie around his neck is has been

00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:55.940
opened and it's loose and his hair is ragged

00:15:55.940 --> 00:16:00.360
and um and even though he's 11 years old you

00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:02.059
can look at him and you can tell he's sitting

00:16:02.059 --> 00:16:05.340
in a chair and he's exhausted and the meme says

00:16:05.340 --> 00:16:07.820
something like little bobby decided to dress

00:16:07.820 --> 00:16:11.379
like his dad detective so and so from the local

00:16:11.379 --> 00:16:16.000
police department right you know uh just you

00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:20.179
know completely exhausted um warren ragged and

00:16:20.179 --> 00:16:22.320
i think the meme also said something about and

00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:24.340
you know told his schoolmates about being on

00:16:24.340 --> 00:16:27.419
his third marriage which is what came to mind

00:16:27.419 --> 00:16:30.899
when you said third marriage wallet yeah so uh

00:16:30.899 --> 00:16:33.840
it's it's funny i'll i'll send it to you sometime

00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:37.299
on your cell phone yeah thank you all right well

00:16:37.299 --> 00:16:39.080
you mentioned athletics what were you playing

00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:41.259
and doing in the kind of middle school high school

00:16:41.259 --> 00:16:47.250
ages Everything. My father was a sports fan and

00:16:47.250 --> 00:16:51.350
allowed me to play anything I wanted. I probably

00:16:51.350 --> 00:16:54.450
up and through high school when I graduated,

00:16:54.470 --> 00:16:56.789
I was playing a minimum of two sports a year.

00:16:57.389 --> 00:17:00.750
Some in middle school and what we call junior

00:17:00.750 --> 00:17:03.049
high and elementary. I was playing four sports

00:17:03.049 --> 00:17:07.509
a season. Football and baseball were the obvious.

00:17:07.670 --> 00:17:09.769
Then later came track and field and basketball.

00:17:10.589 --> 00:17:15.109
So the big three plus track. Yeah. I always ask

00:17:15.109 --> 00:17:17.490
people this because I played team sports and

00:17:17.490 --> 00:17:19.349
I was a martial artist. So obviously I fought

00:17:19.349 --> 00:17:22.190
on my own on the mat as well. When you reflect

00:17:22.190 --> 00:17:26.009
back now, what elements of the team sports helped

00:17:26.009 --> 00:17:28.490
you as you progress through your career and what

00:17:28.490 --> 00:17:33.029
elements of the individual sport? Yeah, the individual

00:17:33.029 --> 00:17:35.849
sport would have been track. Even though you

00:17:35.849 --> 00:17:39.380
work. individually to accumulate points for the

00:17:39.380 --> 00:17:42.720
team. It's still an individual sport. And for

00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:46.740
me, I was primarily, I made my points for the

00:17:46.740 --> 00:17:51.980
team as a pole vaulter. And I ran some other

00:17:51.980 --> 00:17:54.299
events on occasion, but I scored my points in

00:17:54.299 --> 00:17:56.579
pole vault. And that was just me out there doing

00:17:56.579 --> 00:17:59.119
my thing by myself, you know, so it was an individual

00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:03.319
event. And it teaches you, you know, that if

00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:06.279
you don't perform, obviously, the team is going

00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:08.960
to suffer but you're also under you can't hide

00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:10.680
under the team you know if you're on a football

00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:13.319
team and there's 11 players on the field at one

00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:16.359
time you might get lost among those 11 players

00:18:16.359 --> 00:18:18.920
but in track and field there's a there's a little

00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:22.980
bit of a spotlight on you i i often say that

00:18:22.980 --> 00:18:25.460
track and field may be the best spectator sport

00:18:25.460 --> 00:18:28.920
out there because everybody is under the spotlight

00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:31.720
it can be seen your performance can't be hidden

00:18:31.720 --> 00:18:36.039
among your teammates Concerning the team sports,

00:18:36.420 --> 00:18:43.819
it's cliche, but it's true. Texas, by reputation,

00:18:44.099 --> 00:18:47.819
is a football state. So I went to a high school

00:18:47.819 --> 00:18:51.339
that was a football power during that era. In

00:18:51.339 --> 00:18:53.460
fact, as we speak right now, I've come back to

00:18:53.460 --> 00:18:58.519
Texas after being gone for almost 40 years. But

00:18:58.519 --> 00:19:01.119
as I come back now, my high school is this year

00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:04.299
opening up their new. high school football stadium

00:19:04.299 --> 00:19:06.819
they tore the old one down took two years to

00:19:06.819 --> 00:19:10.259
rebuild it multi multi -million dollar stadium

00:19:10.259 --> 00:19:14.819
complete with astro turf big screen scoreboard

00:19:14.819 --> 00:19:17.160
with digital features and this is at the high

00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:21.079
school level it would make uh most junior colleges

00:19:21.079 --> 00:19:24.720
and small colleges envious but that's the norm

00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:30.980
in texas where football is king and um being

00:19:30.980 --> 00:19:35.319
on a competitive state qualified state championship

00:19:35.319 --> 00:19:40.440
caliber team was a great lesson learner. I happened

00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:43.779
to play quarterback my senior year. And of course,

00:19:43.779 --> 00:19:46.000
that puts you in a leadership position, will

00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.900
set you up for either failure or success. I'd

00:19:48.900 --> 00:19:52.259
been quarterback all the previous years, at the

00:19:52.259 --> 00:19:54.480
freshman level and the junior varsity level,

00:19:54.700 --> 00:19:59.589
but to be. a quarterback on a varsity team in

00:19:59.589 --> 00:20:02.430
the state of Texas at the highest level. At that

00:20:02.430 --> 00:20:05.750
time, we were a 5A classification, which was

00:20:05.750 --> 00:20:09.130
the highest level. Playing against what now is

00:20:09.130 --> 00:20:12.690
all future NFL players, having NFL players on

00:20:12.690 --> 00:20:18.710
my team as well. You learn the lesson of teamwork,

00:20:18.970 --> 00:20:22.529
cliche, but you also learn if you don't perform,

00:20:22.869 --> 00:20:26.670
the team's not going to succeed. so um it puts

00:20:26.670 --> 00:20:30.349
a lot of pressure on you what about career aspirations

00:20:30.349 --> 00:20:32.569
were you like a lot of people that are successful

00:20:32.569 --> 00:20:35.490
in school wanting to do that professionally or

00:20:35.490 --> 00:20:36.890
were you already thinking about something else

00:20:36.890 --> 00:20:43.089
well i i wasn't a smart kid i won't say that

00:20:43.089 --> 00:20:45.490
but i was smart enough to know that hey i'm not

00:20:45.490 --> 00:20:48.069
going to be a professional athlete no one's going

00:20:48.069 --> 00:20:54.150
to pay me to uh to uh run a slow 400 meters or

00:20:54.150 --> 00:20:58.690
pole vault 15 feet or whatever it might be. But

00:20:58.690 --> 00:21:03.089
I did think that I could parlay that into a college

00:21:03.089 --> 00:21:07.029
scholarship, get a college degree and then parlay

00:21:07.029 --> 00:21:11.009
that into a career, which I'd already determined

00:21:11.009 --> 00:21:13.329
I thought it was going to be law enforcement.

00:21:13.450 --> 00:21:16.910
I started taking criminal justice classes my

00:21:16.910 --> 00:21:24.190
freshman year and so forth. But things happen.

00:21:24.950 --> 00:21:29.950
And I went to a junior college there in my area

00:21:29.950 --> 00:21:33.430
on a 50 -50 scholarship. And what that means

00:21:33.430 --> 00:21:37.490
is you pay the first year, the school will pay

00:21:37.490 --> 00:21:40.950
the next year. So you split the tuition and the

00:21:40.950 --> 00:21:46.049
expenses and so forth. And then my dad died unexpectedly.

00:21:46.940 --> 00:21:50.059
So now my brother's out of the house. I'm the

00:21:50.059 --> 00:21:52.660
only person there with my mom and so forth. Just,

00:21:52.779 --> 00:21:55.400
you know, obviously some stressors there. So

00:21:55.400 --> 00:22:00.579
I dropped out and through networking, I ended

00:22:00.579 --> 00:22:03.220
up in the oil refinery business as a 19 year

00:22:03.220 --> 00:22:06.539
old because the money was really good. Just go

00:22:06.539 --> 00:22:08.599
back to our earlier conversation, right? So I'm

00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:11.440
19 years old. I'm working in an oil refinery.

00:22:12.279 --> 00:22:16.200
And I'm making a really good blue collar middle

00:22:16.200 --> 00:22:19.359
class salary, especially at 19 years old. I bought

00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:23.759
a house and had a mortgage at 19 years old. But

00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:27.339
I did know this, James, that I didn't want to

00:22:27.339 --> 00:22:32.599
do that for the rest of my life. All my high

00:22:32.599 --> 00:22:35.279
school classmates mostly stayed in the area and

00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:37.819
continue to do that type of work for the rest

00:22:37.819 --> 00:22:41.079
of their life. And God bless them. They made

00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:43.859
great money doing it and so forth. But I just

00:22:43.859 --> 00:22:46.680
didn't want to do that. And so from there, I

00:22:46.680 --> 00:22:50.160
joined the Marines. So my athletic career kind

00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:54.059
of halted when my dad died. And I jumped into

00:22:54.059 --> 00:22:58.559
fulfilling some other obligations. So what was

00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:01.160
your on -ramp experience like for the Marines?

00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:03.759
And where did you find yourself deployed over

00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:07.880
that? It was 10 years, wasn't it? Yeah, I had

00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.470
an interesting career. I was both enlisted and

00:23:11.470 --> 00:23:14.690
commissioned. So I enlisted at 19 and went to

00:23:14.690 --> 00:23:16.910
San Diego. I don't know if you know this, but

00:23:16.910 --> 00:23:19.390
for the Marine Corps, depending upon where you

00:23:19.390 --> 00:23:21.430
live in the United States, if you're west of

00:23:21.430 --> 00:23:23.289
the Mississippi, you'll go to boot camp in San

00:23:23.289 --> 00:23:26.250
Diego. If you're east of the Mississippi, you'll

00:23:26.250 --> 00:23:28.309
go to boot camp at Parris Island, South Carolina.

00:23:29.329 --> 00:23:33.190
The only exception to that is if your father

00:23:33.190 --> 00:23:36.069
or your grandfather went to one of the boot camps,

00:23:36.190 --> 00:23:39.049
you can request to go to that one also. So I

00:23:39.049 --> 00:23:42.190
ended up in San Diego, Hollywood Marines, as

00:23:42.190 --> 00:23:45.690
we're called. Gomer Pyle, if you've ever seen

00:23:45.690 --> 00:23:50.049
Gomer Pyle before and so forth. That was my own

00:23:50.049 --> 00:23:55.509
ramp, was boot camp. I went in open contract,

00:23:55.690 --> 00:23:58.589
James. I knew nobody in the Marines. I knew nobody

00:23:58.589 --> 00:24:02.589
in the military in general to give me any advice.

00:24:03.410 --> 00:24:06.349
And I kind of came to this decision that I want

00:24:06.349 --> 00:24:09.880
to join the Marines. In my mind, I'd made the

00:24:09.880 --> 00:24:13.200
decision that they're the best of the best. But

00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:16.119
I want to go because the way it was at on the

00:24:16.119 --> 00:24:18.759
calendar, I wanted to go and be back by Christmas

00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:21.799
from boot camp. You know, who knows what goes

00:24:21.799 --> 00:24:23.519
through your mind when you're 19 years old and

00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:26.900
newly married, by the way. So I wanted to go

00:24:26.900 --> 00:24:31.079
to boot camp and be back. The recruiter said,

00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:33.180
well, the only way we can do that is you go open

00:24:33.180 --> 00:24:35.890
contract. And I don't know if you're familiar

00:24:35.890 --> 00:24:38.349
with that term, but basically open contract says

00:24:38.349 --> 00:24:40.170
that you don't have an MOS that's guaranteed.

00:24:40.869 --> 00:24:44.130
You're going to go start boot camp and then the

00:24:44.130 --> 00:24:46.349
computer will tell you what your job is going

00:24:46.349 --> 00:24:47.950
to be. You'll find out about halfway through

00:24:47.950 --> 00:24:51.670
boot camp. So I found out open contract. I got

00:24:51.670 --> 00:24:54.890
a job as what we call admin, basically a paper

00:24:54.890 --> 00:24:57.369
pusher, administrative handling paperwork for

00:24:57.369 --> 00:25:00.109
within the Marine Corps. There are Marines that

00:25:00.109 --> 00:25:02.849
do admin work, if you can believe that. Not very

00:25:02.849 --> 00:25:07.069
sexy, but it exists. So that and from there,

00:25:07.170 --> 00:25:10.670
I ended up, I actually mentioned this to some

00:25:10.670 --> 00:25:13.869
others. I ended up driving around Camp Lejeune,

00:25:13.930 --> 00:25:16.410
North Carolina in a bread truck delivering mail,

00:25:16.549 --> 00:25:19.210
if you can believe that. It almost looked like

00:25:19.210 --> 00:25:21.349
Santa Claus. I had these big bags of mail that

00:25:21.349 --> 00:25:23.450
I would drop off at units that weighed 100 pounds

00:25:23.450 --> 00:25:25.930
apiece, you know, that kind of thing. Not very

00:25:25.930 --> 00:25:29.970
sexy. But I applied for a program early in my

00:25:29.970 --> 00:25:35.690
career that would allow me, if I was selected,

00:25:35.869 --> 00:25:38.269
would allow me to go back to college at the Marine

00:25:38.269 --> 00:25:41.710
Corps' expense, earn a degree, and then commission

00:25:41.710 --> 00:25:44.109
as an officer, and then pay the Marine Corps

00:25:44.109 --> 00:25:47.190
back with time and service. And I was selected

00:25:47.190 --> 00:25:49.589
for that program for the Marines that are listening.

00:25:49.750 --> 00:25:52.410
It's called the MESEP program and everybody's

00:25:52.410 --> 00:25:56.329
familiar with it. 50 Marines that year, corporals

00:25:56.329 --> 00:25:58.349
and sergeants and staff sergeants were selected.

00:25:58.670 --> 00:26:02.170
I go back to San Diego. I get a little refresher

00:26:02.170 --> 00:26:04.829
training for that summer to get me ready for

00:26:04.829 --> 00:26:07.109
college. And I ended up at the Citadel, if you

00:26:07.109 --> 00:26:09.069
know where that's at, in Charleston, South Carolina.

00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:13.000
I chose to go to the Citadel. You're allowed

00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:16.579
to go to any school that has a Navy ROTC program.

00:26:17.700 --> 00:26:20.500
I chose to go to the Citadel because of its reputation.

00:26:21.299 --> 00:26:23.779
And then also it was the most popular among the

00:26:23.779 --> 00:26:27.059
Marines to choose for that program. We also had

00:26:27.059 --> 00:26:29.819
a Marine colonel in charge of our Navy ROTC program.

00:26:30.579 --> 00:26:33.099
If I had gone to another school, I would have

00:26:33.099 --> 00:26:36.339
worked for a Navy captain. So that Marine thing

00:26:36.339 --> 00:26:39.079
was attractive. So I ended up at the Citadel.

00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:41.920
I commissioned out of there and I became an intelligence

00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:44.640
officer by choice. That's what I wanted to do.

00:26:44.700 --> 00:26:46.660
So finally, now I'm five years into the Marine

00:26:46.660 --> 00:26:49.000
Corps, James, and I get to pick my job finally

00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:52.740
after five years. And I had a great commissioned

00:26:52.740 --> 00:26:58.819
tour. I ended up out in Hawaii with a unit called

00:26:58.819 --> 00:27:02.309
1st Radio Battalion. and i was a reconnaissance

00:27:02.309 --> 00:27:04.509
platoon commander out there i was a small team

00:27:04.509 --> 00:27:07.910
leader and then i ended up my last year in the

00:27:07.910 --> 00:27:10.130
marine corps i was an aide for a two -star general

00:27:10.130 --> 00:27:16.009
there in hawaii as well so um i started slow

00:27:16.009 --> 00:27:18.650
but i picked up speed and i ended i ended with

00:27:18.650 --> 00:27:21.509
a bang i had a great last four years in the marine

00:27:21.509 --> 00:27:26.130
corps in that time were there any because i mean

00:27:26.130 --> 00:27:30.690
you had quite a unique lens um any threats to

00:27:30.690 --> 00:27:34.049
Hawaii and that area? Because when you think

00:27:34.049 --> 00:27:35.950
about the U .S., obviously, you've got the mainland.

00:27:36.369 --> 00:27:38.710
I would think strategically, that's quite a vulnerable

00:27:38.710 --> 00:27:41.329
location for the people that live there and the

00:27:41.329 --> 00:27:45.549
military bases. Yeah, good question. And you

00:27:45.549 --> 00:27:47.950
asked that, and I didn't mention it about deployment.

00:27:48.069 --> 00:27:50.609
So in Hawaii, you're part of the Pacific Command.

00:27:50.670 --> 00:27:54.150
And at that time, and still today, it was all

00:27:54.150 --> 00:27:56.289
about North Korea doing their saber rattling.

00:27:56.859 --> 00:27:59.619
So we, the Marines, were constantly looking at

00:27:59.619 --> 00:28:03.619
North Korea. We had other responsibilities. I

00:28:03.619 --> 00:28:05.599
had a linguist in my unit that were responsible

00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:08.380
to learn Tagali so that we could work the Philippines

00:28:08.380 --> 00:28:12.779
if we needed to. I had Marines in my units that

00:28:12.779 --> 00:28:15.000
spoke Arabic so that we could work Southwest

00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:19.359
Asia if we needed to. But primarily, North Korea

00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:22.759
was the enemy that was doing the most saber rattling.

00:28:22.839 --> 00:28:28.380
And I ended up going to... Korea and Japan in

00:28:28.380 --> 00:28:31.279
exercises, military preparedness, just always

00:28:31.279 --> 00:28:34.519
to be that frontline type of unit to keep North

00:28:34.519 --> 00:28:38.980
Korea in check. If North Korea could reach, even

00:28:38.980 --> 00:28:41.279
then, I think they could reach Hawaii with a

00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:45.319
ballistic missile. So that would probably be

00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:48.400
the best answer to that question. What is your

00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:52.519
perception of the threat today, like 35 plus

00:28:52.519 --> 00:28:58.940
years later? for North Korea specifically. Yeah.

00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:06.279
I'm always hesitant to say those things because

00:29:06.279 --> 00:29:07.940
whatever I'll say, I'll turn out to look like

00:29:07.940 --> 00:29:10.259
a fool probably six months later and so forth.

00:29:10.319 --> 00:29:15.980
Yeah. The world community has been successful

00:29:15.980 --> 00:29:20.900
in keeping North Korea. in its box. And I don't

00:29:20.900 --> 00:29:22.940
know if that's China, if that's the United States,

00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:29.180
if that's a combination of both. But every day,

00:29:29.180 --> 00:29:32.259
I think people think less and less about North

00:29:32.259 --> 00:29:34.420
Korea. And I think North Korea realizes that,

00:29:34.460 --> 00:29:36.579
that people think less and less about them. So

00:29:36.579 --> 00:29:38.700
they fire off a ballistic missile so they can

00:29:38.700 --> 00:29:41.660
say, hey, don't forget about me. I'm this really

00:29:41.660 --> 00:29:44.500
tough guy. Obviously, they're the, I don't know,

00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:46.700
maybe they're like the little runt on the block

00:29:46.700 --> 00:29:50.079
that is tired of being looked at as the little

00:29:50.079 --> 00:29:52.460
rot and so they always get into fights so that

00:29:52.460 --> 00:29:54.160
they can prove that they're not the little runt

00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:56.940
but at the end of the day they're still the little

00:29:56.940 --> 00:30:00.940
runt who happens to have a nuclear weapon but

00:30:00.940 --> 00:30:04.819
uh i have to believe that no matter what we what

00:30:04.819 --> 00:30:06.940
they what kind of propaganda they put out they

00:30:06.940 --> 00:30:10.839
know that it's a losing battle no matter what

00:30:10.839 --> 00:30:13.720
they do if they use nukes if they use conventional

00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:16.000
it doesn't matter they lose at the end of the

00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:18.980
day And the leaders have to know that they'll

00:30:18.980 --> 00:30:21.380
be the first ones killed. So because of that,

00:30:21.579 --> 00:30:24.519
I think it's been all of that together has kept

00:30:24.519 --> 00:30:26.799
them in their box. And I think they become less

00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:29.839
of a threat every day. I'm just about to get

00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:33.220
a couple of Korean War veterans on. It's so sad

00:30:33.220 --> 00:30:35.059
because when we reflect, you know, the veteran,

00:30:35.220 --> 00:30:38.720
excuse me, the Vietnam era war fighters, you

00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:41.000
know, had such a horrendous homecoming the way

00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:43.380
they were treated. But, you know, the Korean

00:30:43.380 --> 00:30:46.240
vets, I mean, it's the forgotten war. And I saw

00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:50.500
a documentary on Korea, North Korea, and they

00:30:50.500 --> 00:30:53.700
kind of detailed how close they came to losing

00:30:53.700 --> 00:30:56.019
the whole country and how the Allied forces helped

00:30:56.019 --> 00:30:57.980
push them all the way back to what we know now

00:30:57.980 --> 00:31:02.480
as the North -South line. What really blows me

00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:07.619
away, though, is how quickly those two change.

00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:09.799
I mean, you have World War II, then you have

00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:11.940
all these parts of the country walled off and

00:31:11.940 --> 00:31:15.599
separated. But if you look at, for example, Berlin,

00:31:16.039 --> 00:31:18.720
you know, when the wall fell, there was basically,

00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:20.660
you know, I know it wasn't flawless, but there

00:31:20.660 --> 00:31:23.440
ultimately was a return of brother and sisterhood.

00:31:23.660 --> 00:31:27.480
But when you look at the brainwashing that appears

00:31:27.480 --> 00:31:30.039
to happen in North Korea, if what we're being

00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:33.279
told is correct, it's so sad that these people

00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:36.359
that rule one nation are so pitted against each

00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:42.079
other now. Yeah. And obviously there's. Family

00:31:42.079 --> 00:31:44.319
trees that have been severed because of that.

00:31:44.460 --> 00:31:49.799
And you think about knowing that where I live

00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:53.859
in Texas, I can't go into Louisiana because they're

00:31:53.859 --> 00:31:56.319
the bad guys, for example. And I can't cross

00:31:56.319 --> 00:32:00.299
that line, even though I know I have relatives

00:32:00.299 --> 00:32:02.980
that I've heard throughout the course of my life.

00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:05.740
And my family has passed down to me through a

00:32:05.740 --> 00:32:08.019
verbal lineage that I have relatives in Louisiana.

00:32:08.650 --> 00:32:10.569
I have blood in Louisiana, but I can't go there.

00:32:10.630 --> 00:32:13.470
They're the bad guys. So that's got to be sad.

00:32:13.609 --> 00:32:17.569
You're right. And I don't know from a South Korea

00:32:17.569 --> 00:32:19.670
perspective, or excuse me, from a North Korea

00:32:19.670 --> 00:32:22.769
perspective, how much they think like that. But

00:32:22.769 --> 00:32:24.569
I know that that is part of the South Korean

00:32:24.569 --> 00:32:28.410
culture. When I was there and had conversations

00:32:28.410 --> 00:32:31.950
with others, they reminisce about a day where

00:32:31.950 --> 00:32:34.950
they can join back into their family tree and

00:32:34.950 --> 00:32:38.380
lineage. Yeah. I mean, it's just seeing, again,

00:32:38.500 --> 00:32:41.900
what we are shown as far as all these crowds

00:32:41.900 --> 00:32:44.740
of people saluting their leader and singing songs

00:32:44.740 --> 00:32:47.460
about their leader. Now that we've got a couple

00:32:47.460 --> 00:32:49.519
of generations down the road, how do you undo

00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:53.740
that level of propaganda and brainwashing? Yeah,

00:32:53.799 --> 00:32:56.539
it's hard. It's really tough for us to believe

00:32:56.539 --> 00:32:59.740
that that's possible in today's technological

00:32:59.740 --> 00:33:04.809
age. Apparently it is. I guess if that's your

00:33:04.809 --> 00:33:07.549
goal and you wake up every day thinking, how

00:33:07.549 --> 00:33:11.009
can I keep my subordinates in the dark? Then

00:33:11.009 --> 00:33:12.910
I guess that's what North Korea is doing in that

00:33:12.910 --> 00:33:16.150
regard. And apparently it's working. Well, I

00:33:16.150 --> 00:33:17.730
think, you know, if we're being fair, England,

00:33:17.930 --> 00:33:20.829
America, we can all see elements of that, even

00:33:20.829 --> 00:33:22.869
in our own country. I would say if we're being

00:33:22.869 --> 00:33:26.289
apolitical, look at, you know, COVID and the

00:33:26.289 --> 00:33:28.470
incidents that happened around those two or three

00:33:28.470 --> 00:33:30.930
years. There was a lot of propaganda. There was

00:33:30.930 --> 00:33:33.430
a lot of, you know, withholding the truth in

00:33:33.430 --> 00:33:35.970
certain areas, you know, and then kind of inciting

00:33:35.970 --> 00:33:38.029
fires in other areas. And it doesn't matter which

00:33:38.029 --> 00:33:40.950
way people lean. You know, look at your own camp.

00:33:41.049 --> 00:33:43.009
If you kind of push towards the extreme, they

00:33:43.009 --> 00:33:45.549
were doing it. So there's some red flags here

00:33:45.549 --> 00:33:47.230
that we have to really push against, I think.

00:33:49.109 --> 00:33:52.519
That's a fair point. but you the key point you

00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:54.519
make is that we have to push against we have

00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:57.299
the ability to push against it and using your

00:33:57.299 --> 00:33:59.599
example earlier of north koreans those citizens

00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:01.859
don't have the ability to push against they have

00:34:01.859 --> 00:34:04.259
to take what they're given and assume it's the

00:34:04.259 --> 00:34:07.420
truth absolutely we've got to push against it

00:34:07.420 --> 00:34:09.099
otherwise one day we might not be able to and

00:34:09.099 --> 00:34:12.400
i think that's the point um yeah and it's a good

00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:14.659
point All right. Well, they're moving forward.

00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:17.559
So what makes you transition out of the military?

00:34:17.579 --> 00:34:20.360
And how did you find yourself in the FBI of all

00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:25.340
places? When I was in Hawaii, I belonged to an

00:34:25.340 --> 00:34:28.719
intelligence unit and I was an intelligence officer.

00:34:28.760 --> 00:34:32.000
And with that came the highest level of security

00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:35.500
classification, clearance, what we call in the

00:34:35.500 --> 00:34:42.960
community a top secret, SCI, and so forth. Having

00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:48.659
that already under my resume made it enticing

00:34:48.659 --> 00:34:51.980
for the local FBI recruiter. So there came a

00:34:51.980 --> 00:34:55.800
time in 1996 that the FBI recruiter from Hawaii,

00:34:56.079 --> 00:34:59.719
from Honolulu, came on to the Marine base and

00:34:59.719 --> 00:35:03.139
gave a recruiting presentation. And a lot of

00:35:03.139 --> 00:35:07.340
lieutenants, young lieutenants from my battalion

00:35:07.340 --> 00:35:11.269
went to that presentation. And little did we

00:35:11.269 --> 00:35:14.730
know that within the next 12 to 24 months, seven

00:35:14.730 --> 00:35:17.030
lieutenants out of my battalion would join the

00:35:17.030 --> 00:35:21.449
FBI. And the primary reason for that is we already

00:35:21.449 --> 00:35:26.090
had the security clearance, which told the recruiter

00:35:26.090 --> 00:35:28.550
that we can pass the background investigation

00:35:28.550 --> 00:35:31.789
for the FBI for the most part. Sure, we had to

00:35:31.789 --> 00:35:34.289
still go through the process, but we were a safe

00:35:34.289 --> 00:35:36.349
bet because we had already been granted a clearance

00:35:36.349 --> 00:35:40.920
by the Marine Corps. So we were like easy picking,

00:35:41.059 --> 00:35:46.599
if you will. We were good candidates on paper.

00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:49.380
But when you add that top secret clearance, that

00:35:49.380 --> 00:35:51.960
just makes you a better candidate. And I was

00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:55.400
looking to maybe leave the Marine Corps simply

00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:58.920
because family dynamics were always deploying.

00:35:59.219 --> 00:36:01.320
You know, I'd been all over the. the Pacific

00:36:01.320 --> 00:36:03.460
in my short amount of time there. I knew I had

00:36:03.460 --> 00:36:06.260
more in store for me if I stayed in the Marines.

00:36:06.500 --> 00:36:09.780
I was prepared to leave the Marines only if I

00:36:09.780 --> 00:36:11.980
could join the FBI. I'd made a decision that

00:36:11.980 --> 00:36:14.840
was the only career I wanted to pursue. So when

00:36:14.840 --> 00:36:18.679
that recruiter came on the base, I went ahead

00:36:18.679 --> 00:36:20.880
and went through the application process. If

00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:22.639
I had not been accepted, I would have stayed

00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:26.019
in the Marines. I already had nine years, seven

00:36:26.019 --> 00:36:28.179
months, and eight days, just a little bit short

00:36:28.179 --> 00:36:31.579
of 10 years. But when I went into the FBI, I

00:36:31.579 --> 00:36:34.519
was able to take that time with me as well. Federal

00:36:34.519 --> 00:36:37.139
time transfers, as you probably know. So that

00:36:37.139 --> 00:36:40.480
was also part of my decision. I looked at the

00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:43.559
FBI as obviously the best of the law enforcement

00:36:43.559 --> 00:36:46.360
agencies, with all due respect to the others.

00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:51.179
It also paid the best, quite frankly. And I didn't

00:36:51.179 --> 00:36:53.860
want to take a severe cut in pay if I transferred

00:36:53.860 --> 00:36:56.019
to some of the other law enforcement agencies

00:36:56.019 --> 00:36:58.630
that don't pay as well. Because by this time

00:36:58.630 --> 00:37:03.610
I was a captain in the Marines with nine plus

00:37:03.610 --> 00:37:05.869
years of service. So I was making a fair salary

00:37:05.869 --> 00:37:07.590
and I didn't want to take a big cut. So it all

00:37:07.590 --> 00:37:09.809
worked out well. The Bureau had a lot to offer.

00:37:09.929 --> 00:37:12.070
They had the job satisfaction. They had the salary.

00:37:12.849 --> 00:37:14.769
They had all these neat things going for them.

00:37:14.849 --> 00:37:17.190
So to me, that was where I was going to go if

00:37:17.190 --> 00:37:21.750
I was going to go anywhere. What kind of area

00:37:21.750 --> 00:37:23.969
did you find yourself working in first? I know,

00:37:24.010 --> 00:37:25.570
obviously, we're going to transition and talk

00:37:25.570 --> 00:37:28.849
about gangs and human trafficking, prostitution.

00:37:29.050 --> 00:37:31.570
But was that where you found yourself immediately

00:37:31.570 --> 00:37:34.190
or was there quite an interesting path that you

00:37:34.190 --> 00:37:39.309
took? Well, yeah, for the most part, when I landed

00:37:39.309 --> 00:37:41.769
in Atlanta, Georgia, as a new agent out of the

00:37:41.769 --> 00:37:44.670
academy after graduating from Quantico, I was

00:37:44.670 --> 00:37:48.400
assigned to an organized crime squad. And traditional

00:37:48.400 --> 00:37:52.559
organized crime in 1997 for the FBI meant the

00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:55.900
John Gottis of the world, the traditional New

00:37:55.900 --> 00:37:59.380
York mafia for the most part. We also had on

00:37:59.380 --> 00:38:01.920
my squad, we also worked Asian organized crime

00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:05.099
and we worked Russian organized crime. And we

00:38:05.099 --> 00:38:08.099
all worked it together as one big squad. Specifically,

00:38:08.139 --> 00:38:11.920
my area of expertise and my primary responsibility

00:38:11.920 --> 00:38:15.480
was La Cosa Nostra, or the Italian organized

00:38:15.480 --> 00:38:18.900
crime, the John Gottis of the world. New York

00:38:18.900 --> 00:38:23.260
was making a move, New York Mafia, as they always

00:38:23.260 --> 00:38:26.320
have, to go where the cash is. And Atlanta was

00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:29.780
a strip club capital of America, frankly. And

00:38:29.780 --> 00:38:33.019
with that comes cash. 1997 was still not a...

00:38:33.019 --> 00:38:37.460
We still didn't have... the era where everybody

00:38:37.460 --> 00:38:40.119
lived on plastic and credit cards technology

00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:42.699
in 1997 there was still a lot a lot amount of

00:38:42.699 --> 00:38:45.300
cash floating around when so when you went into

00:38:45.300 --> 00:38:49.260
businesses you paid in cash often so you anytime

00:38:49.260 --> 00:38:55.679
you saw businesses with cash gambling strip clubs

00:38:55.679 --> 00:39:00.900
racing uh organized racing sports betting etc

00:39:00.900 --> 00:39:03.300
those cash oriented business you're going to

00:39:03.300 --> 00:39:06.239
have organized crime involved and that's what

00:39:06.239 --> 00:39:09.739
i fell into when i showed up in atlanta and i

00:39:09.739 --> 00:39:12.920
worked on that squad for 10 years james working

00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:16.320
traditional organized crime and all things associated

00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:20.920
with that so you ask how did i you know what

00:39:20.920 --> 00:39:23.840
did i end up right out of the academy uh i i

00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:26.559
hit a home run in my opinion uh by just some

00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:28.900
dumb luck and combination of things i ended up

00:39:28.900 --> 00:39:31.860
on a great squad working with great individuals

00:39:31.860 --> 00:39:35.380
investigating things that i was interested in.

00:39:35.699 --> 00:39:37.940
If I'd have been stuck on a white collar squad

00:39:37.940 --> 00:39:41.420
investigating bank fraud, I probably wouldn't

00:39:41.420 --> 00:39:43.780
have been too excited about that. It's just not

00:39:43.780 --> 00:39:45.880
my personality. And I probably don't have the

00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:50.059
aptitude to do it well, neither. So I landed

00:39:50.059 --> 00:39:53.840
well. I watched a documentary that came out recently

00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:57.039
on the Gotti case. And again, it wasn't really

00:39:57.039 --> 00:39:58.980
something I even knew anything about. But what

00:39:58.980 --> 00:40:01.539
I took away because I could totally see it in

00:40:01.539 --> 00:40:04.699
agencies that I work for. And these are actually

00:40:04.699 --> 00:40:07.099
the agents that are involved in the case talking

00:40:07.099 --> 00:40:09.440
about this and talking about each other. So,

00:40:09.480 --> 00:40:12.780
OK, this is this did happen at this time. The

00:40:12.780 --> 00:40:17.940
the kind of egos that got in the way of interagency

00:40:17.940 --> 00:40:21.139
communication that ultimately prolonged the case

00:40:21.139 --> 00:40:23.500
and resulted in more deaths in that particular

00:40:23.500 --> 00:40:27.559
example. Talk to me about that perception, because

00:40:27.559 --> 00:40:30.980
in my world. I know of county and city fire departments

00:40:30.980 --> 00:40:32.800
that don't work together. I know of police and

00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:35.940
fire that don't work together. And that's nauseating

00:40:35.940 --> 00:40:38.460
in a profession where we need to have that flawless

00:40:38.460 --> 00:40:41.639
communication, especially, God forbid, in a school

00:40:41.639 --> 00:40:43.500
shooting or some of these catastrophic events.

00:40:44.019 --> 00:40:47.900
So over your career, did you see elements of

00:40:47.900 --> 00:40:51.300
that? And even if you did or didn't, how do we

00:40:51.300 --> 00:40:56.320
create more communication and cohesion in these

00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:00.750
agencies to work together? So the actual result

00:41:00.750 --> 00:41:03.530
is the most important thing rather than egos

00:41:03.530 --> 00:41:08.250
and victories within each jurisdiction. Yeah,

00:41:08.269 --> 00:41:10.230
that's a really good question. And your last

00:41:10.230 --> 00:41:13.329
sentence said said the right word ego. Right.

00:41:14.369 --> 00:41:18.010
And so I know the documentary you're talking

00:41:18.010 --> 00:41:21.869
about. I saw probably the same one. Netflix,

00:41:22.010 --> 00:41:25.610
correct? Yes. Get Gotti. Yeah. Yes. yeah and

00:41:25.610 --> 00:41:27.289
if you know if you'll go back there's another

00:41:27.289 --> 00:41:29.989
one i don't know if it's still on netflix if

00:41:29.989 --> 00:41:32.570
you go back about a year or two before that was

00:41:32.570 --> 00:41:35.750
released there was a precursor called fear city

00:41:35.750 --> 00:41:39.829
that was released and fear city is the mob leading

00:41:39.829 --> 00:41:43.730
up to god it's the mob of the 70s and how the

00:41:43.730 --> 00:41:47.829
fbi finally developed a game plan to attack the

00:41:47.829 --> 00:41:51.159
mob which leads you into the next documentary,

00:41:51.380 --> 00:41:53.840
which is Get Gotti. We now had a game plan how

00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:58.500
we're going to do this. And it's ironic that

00:41:58.500 --> 00:42:01.780
you say that. You mentioned that particular documentary.

00:42:02.380 --> 00:42:05.579
When I was in Atlanta as a new agent, one of

00:42:05.579 --> 00:42:09.340
my training agents as a probationary agent was

00:42:09.340 --> 00:42:12.239
an agent, John Iacovelli, who had worked that

00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:16.170
John Gotti case. that you're referring to and

00:42:16.170 --> 00:42:19.489
had some great roles there with Sammy Gravano

00:42:19.489 --> 00:42:23.929
and so forth. In Atlanta, where I was at, James,

00:42:24.110 --> 00:42:27.869
it was different than New York. So in your documentary,

00:42:28.170 --> 00:42:31.570
you've got NYPD, which has their own organized

00:42:31.570 --> 00:42:35.949
crime unit that is very successful and got a

00:42:35.949 --> 00:42:37.969
lot of strong egos in there and a lot of type

00:42:37.969 --> 00:42:41.269
A personalities. Then you have the FBI doing

00:42:41.269 --> 00:42:45.760
their thing, which is. Ditto again. And those

00:42:45.760 --> 00:42:49.179
two buttheads, NYPD and FBI, especially when

00:42:49.179 --> 00:42:52.280
it comes to organized crime. And that's what

00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:54.619
you're seeing in that documentary. And you have

00:42:54.619 --> 00:42:58.239
the U .S. Attorney's Office fighting with the

00:42:58.239 --> 00:43:00.559
local district attorney's office. Also in New

00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:03.679
York, they had this weird thing that was an organized

00:43:03.679 --> 00:43:07.199
crime task force, which was made up of multiple

00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:10.760
local jurisdictions at the state level. and the

00:43:10.760 --> 00:43:13.659
local level so now you had three agencies the

00:43:13.659 --> 00:43:18.260
organized crime task force nypd and the fbi all

00:43:18.260 --> 00:43:22.260
targeting organized crime and it's inevitable

00:43:22.260 --> 00:43:24.880
that they're going to butt heads and the documentary

00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:28.980
does a good job explaining that in atlanta i

00:43:28.980 --> 00:43:31.699
didn't have that problem the city of atlanta

00:43:31.699 --> 00:43:34.619
or any of the local jurisdictions there that

00:43:34.619 --> 00:43:37.559
i worked with on a daily basis quite frankly

00:43:37.559 --> 00:43:40.420
said look You can have the organized crime problem.

00:43:40.699 --> 00:43:43.260
We're not cut out for those guys. We don't have

00:43:43.260 --> 00:43:45.119
the resources. We don't have the funding. We

00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:50.059
don't have the expertise. We're working different

00:43:50.059 --> 00:43:53.760
crimes. We have a different budget. If that's

00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:56.139
what the FBI wants to do, we're not going to

00:43:56.139 --> 00:43:59.820
argue with you about that. So when we took on

00:43:59.820 --> 00:44:03.119
these high -profile cases in Atlanta, we didn't

00:44:03.119 --> 00:44:06.849
have any competition. from the state or locals

00:44:06.849 --> 00:44:08.909
like you would in New York. And we didn't have

00:44:08.909 --> 00:44:11.449
really any competition within the federal system

00:44:11.449 --> 00:44:15.349
either, ATF or DEA and et cetera. And whenever

00:44:15.349 --> 00:44:18.909
the cases mingled together where there was a

00:44:18.909 --> 00:44:21.510
drug nexus or there was a firearms nexus and

00:44:21.510 --> 00:44:24.550
we would call our other agency brothers in, we

00:44:24.550 --> 00:44:27.070
always have good stories to tell. We worked well

00:44:27.070 --> 00:44:30.710
together. So there was no who's going to be able

00:44:30.710 --> 00:44:32.829
to stand in front of the microphone type stories

00:44:32.829 --> 00:44:36.619
and take the credit. and and argue uh so i don't

00:44:36.619 --> 00:44:41.480
have those specific examples because i just didn't

00:44:41.480 --> 00:44:43.719
experience it because new york is unique to the

00:44:43.719 --> 00:44:46.400
rest of the country but you've answered the question

00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:51.760
it's it's ego and um that's been what a problem

00:44:51.760 --> 00:44:55.679
for the last i don't know 3 000 years so i'm

00:44:55.679 --> 00:44:58.380
not sure that it's ever going to go away frankly

00:44:59.630 --> 00:45:01.750
well you mentioned atlanta having the most strip

00:45:01.750 --> 00:45:05.150
clubs when you look back now why was that an

00:45:05.150 --> 00:45:09.510
issue in that particular city specifically it

00:45:09.510 --> 00:45:12.329
was an issue because the city of atlanta wanted

00:45:12.329 --> 00:45:17.889
it to be an issue frankly in 1997 when i got

00:45:17.889 --> 00:45:20.750
there and maybe it's like that today i don't

00:45:20.750 --> 00:45:24.530
i wouldn't be surprised you could go on the city

00:45:24.530 --> 00:45:30.750
of atlanta tourist visitors website, the official

00:45:30.750 --> 00:45:33.469
City of Atlanta Visitors Bureau, that's what

00:45:33.469 --> 00:45:35.889
it's called, the City of Atlanta Visitors Bureau

00:45:35.889 --> 00:45:39.409
website, and there would be a link on there for

00:45:39.409 --> 00:45:43.969
the Cheetah Strip Club on the City of Atlanta

00:45:43.969 --> 00:45:47.630
Official Government Bureau website for tourists,

00:45:47.789 --> 00:45:52.230
okay? Now, why is that? Because the City of Atlanta

00:45:52.230 --> 00:45:55.449
realized that if we can bring conventioneers

00:45:55.449 --> 00:45:59.639
into the city, guys that are working in Washington

00:45:59.639 --> 00:46:04.320
State, Iowa, and New Hampshire. And we can bring

00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:07.139
them down to Atlanta to do their once a year

00:46:07.139 --> 00:46:12.719
corporate convention, to do their trade show,

00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:16.400
whatever it might be in Atlanta. Then the city

00:46:16.400 --> 00:46:18.760
of Atlanta wins because they rent those hotels.

00:46:19.500 --> 00:46:21.300
They get all that money that's going to be spent

00:46:21.300 --> 00:46:24.300
and et cetera. So how do we, Atlanta, get these

00:46:24.300 --> 00:46:26.380
folks to come down there other than saying, hey,

00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:31.099
we got warm weather? Well, most of those conventions

00:46:31.099 --> 00:46:33.659
that I just mentioned to you and most of those

00:46:33.659 --> 00:46:38.059
trade shows are male dominated. So why don't

00:46:38.059 --> 00:46:40.099
we attract them with strip clubs, too? And that

00:46:40.099 --> 00:46:43.460
was kind of the unofficial and to that example

00:46:43.460 --> 00:46:47.179
that I just gave you, official way to lure. people

00:46:47.179 --> 00:46:50.480
into the city of Atlanta for business was let's

00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:54.159
just make it real easy legally and code wise

00:46:54.159 --> 00:46:59.960
for strip clubs to exist so in the early in the

00:46:59.960 --> 00:47:03.000
late 90s early 2000s there were only three states

00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:06.139
in America that allowed full nudity and full

00:47:06.139 --> 00:47:13.289
alcohol Florida Georgia and Texas even when you

00:47:13.289 --> 00:47:16.409
went to las vegas or you went to los angeles

00:47:16.409 --> 00:47:19.269
you know girls had to wear some type of clothing

00:47:19.269 --> 00:47:23.050
on either the top or the bottom or if they didn't

00:47:23.050 --> 00:47:25.409
then you couldn't buy full alcohol at the bar

00:47:25.409 --> 00:47:28.210
it was limited to maybe a beer it could be a

00:47:28.210 --> 00:47:31.010
hard alcohol and those businesses make their

00:47:31.010 --> 00:47:34.210
money on the hard alcohol so atlanta created

00:47:34.210 --> 00:47:38.869
this this regulation these rules that said it

00:47:38.869 --> 00:47:40.869
will allow our strip clubs to be full nudity

00:47:41.389 --> 00:47:44.070
Full alcohol. Everybody will come to Atlanta.

00:47:44.369 --> 00:47:46.769
Everybody will spend tons of money. And at the

00:47:46.769 --> 00:47:50.630
end of the day, everybody wins. You entered this

00:47:50.630 --> 00:47:54.389
world. And James, excuse me, one other thing

00:47:54.389 --> 00:47:57.369
that was happening during this time that was

00:47:57.369 --> 00:48:01.550
unique was the 1996 Summer Olympics were coming

00:48:01.550 --> 00:48:05.030
to Atlanta also. So now, in addition to all those

00:48:05.030 --> 00:48:07.030
rules that I just told you about that the city

00:48:07.030 --> 00:48:09.690
of Atlanta endorsed and allowed and the state

00:48:09.690 --> 00:48:13.840
of Georgia allowed. frankly, is now you have

00:48:13.840 --> 00:48:16.559
millions and millions of dollars being pumped

00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:21.440
into infrastructure for the 1996 Olympics. You

00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:24.360
name it is being built, you know, the dorms for

00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:27.000
the athletes and all the infrastructure there,

00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:29.340
the mass transit to move the tourists and the

00:48:29.340 --> 00:48:32.420
spectators around, the new stadiums that are

00:48:32.420 --> 00:48:35.760
being built, the venues, the arenas, so on and

00:48:35.760 --> 00:48:39.139
so on. Atlanta went from a small, sleepy Atlanta.

00:48:40.070 --> 00:48:43.570
city in the early 90s to the number nine largest

00:48:43.570 --> 00:48:48.090
city in america in one decade were you involved

00:48:48.090 --> 00:48:51.650
with the bombing at all at the olympics now that

00:48:51.650 --> 00:48:56.510
happened in 96 and i got there in 97. okay so

00:48:56.510 --> 00:49:00.369
um i was not i was let me rephrase it i was not

00:49:00.369 --> 00:49:02.789
involved in the investigation of the bombing

00:49:02.789 --> 00:49:06.650
at the olympics but eric rudolph who as you know

00:49:06.650 --> 00:49:08.789
was the ultimately turned out to be the bomber

00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:12.300
he was a fugitive for six years after the bombing

00:49:12.300 --> 00:49:14.820
and of course we didn't get him identified until

00:49:14.820 --> 00:49:18.440
99 and then when he fled up to north carolina

00:49:18.440 --> 00:49:20.920
and became a fugitive up in the woods in the

00:49:20.920 --> 00:49:25.639
cherokee national forest i was part of teams

00:49:25.639 --> 00:49:28.000
that went up to north carolina to look for him

00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:32.159
up until 2003 when he was finally i think it

00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:34.699
was 2003 that he was finally arrested and discovered

00:49:34.699 --> 00:49:37.039
so i wasn't part of the bombing investigation

00:49:37.039 --> 00:49:39.780
but i was part of the uh fugitive apprehension

00:49:39.780 --> 00:49:43.820
in the years following i saw a film it was you

00:49:43.820 --> 00:49:46.480
know a kind of um docudrama i guess you'd say

00:49:46.480 --> 00:49:49.840
on um the story when one of the security guards

00:49:49.840 --> 00:49:53.039
was originally suspected of it and the impact

00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:55.699
that had on his life yeah yeah that was a really

00:49:55.699 --> 00:49:57.639
powerful film because again obviously you're

00:49:57.639 --> 00:50:00.150
trying to find the right person but you know,

00:50:00.190 --> 00:50:03.610
the ripple effects of demonizing someone through

00:50:03.610 --> 00:50:06.510
the media and then you're wrong. And then, you

00:50:06.510 --> 00:50:09.030
know, what that did to his life and his dynamic.

00:50:09.150 --> 00:50:16.489
It was a very, very sad story. It was in part.

00:50:16.610 --> 00:50:21.489
And I try and say this professionally. Yeah,

00:50:21.530 --> 00:50:23.869
he was put through the ringer in that first six

00:50:23.869 --> 00:50:26.750
months when he was identified as the prime suspect.

00:50:27.510 --> 00:50:30.500
And then eventually the bureaus. And so that

00:50:30.500 --> 00:50:33.000
made his life hectic. And there's no doubt about

00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:35.460
that. Eventually, the FBI came back and said,

00:50:35.480 --> 00:50:38.820
we got the wrong guy. He's not our guy. And so

00:50:38.820 --> 00:50:41.380
we set the record straight. And then on top of

00:50:41.380 --> 00:50:45.900
that, he was awarded a very nice financial settlement

00:50:45.900 --> 00:50:48.780
based on this that set him up for the rest of

00:50:48.780 --> 00:50:52.059
his life above and beyond. So at the end of the

00:50:52.059 --> 00:50:54.980
day, I think he kind of won out of the whole

00:50:54.980 --> 00:50:58.860
thing. That's just me talking. If he was still

00:50:58.860 --> 00:51:00.639
alive today, he may have a different opinion.

00:51:01.260 --> 00:51:03.980
But, you know, he had to trade one year of misery

00:51:03.980 --> 00:51:06.599
for X amount of millions of dollars in his bank

00:51:06.599 --> 00:51:09.199
account. That's ultimately what the trade was.

00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:12.280
But I know Clint Eastwood made a movie about

00:51:12.280 --> 00:51:16.599
it, and I think it's called Richard Jewell. And,

00:51:16.599 --> 00:51:22.300
you know, what Clint Eastwood does in his movies,

00:51:22.340 --> 00:51:24.460
because he made one about J. Edgar Hoover also,

00:51:24.599 --> 00:51:27.119
and it's called Hoover. the director, you know,

00:51:27.139 --> 00:51:30.460
the longtime story director of the FBI. What

00:51:30.460 --> 00:51:32.760
Eastwood did in the Richard Jewell movie and

00:51:32.760 --> 00:51:34.599
what he did in the Hoover movie is basically

00:51:34.599 --> 00:51:37.659
he throws everything into the movie that's alleged,

00:51:38.019 --> 00:51:42.019
speculated, fact. If it's out there, it's going

00:51:42.019 --> 00:51:45.800
into the movie and you, the viewer, you have

00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:47.659
to decide whether or not you believe it or not.

00:51:48.639 --> 00:51:51.219
And so. There's things in that Richard Jewell

00:51:51.219 --> 00:51:53.860
movie that are spot on, true. It happened. There's

00:51:53.860 --> 00:51:55.800
no doubt about it. But there's also some things

00:51:55.800 --> 00:51:58.260
in that movie that were never confirmed. They

00:51:58.260 --> 00:52:00.699
were speculation. They were rumor. And people

00:52:00.699 --> 00:52:03.679
that knew better told me, no, that never happened.

00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:06.000
So it's kind of a mixed bag when you watch those

00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:08.699
documentaries. Yeah. That's interesting to hear.

00:52:08.760 --> 00:52:12.349
Thank you. Well, circling back to Atlanta, you

00:52:12.349 --> 00:52:15.329
know, you've had the Olympics come through. One

00:52:15.329 --> 00:52:17.289
of the things I've heard from several people

00:52:17.289 --> 00:52:19.849
I had on that their world is human trafficking

00:52:19.849 --> 00:52:23.690
is how large sports events, concerts attract

00:52:23.690 --> 00:52:26.070
a lot more of that, you know, the sex trafficking,

00:52:26.090 --> 00:52:29.110
the prostitution. You enter the world of FBI

00:52:29.110 --> 00:52:31.530
after coming from the Marines. What was your

00:52:31.530 --> 00:52:34.449
exposure to the sex work industry? And then,

00:52:34.449 --> 00:52:36.630
you know, what were you witnessing as far as?

00:52:37.019 --> 00:52:39.539
these big events or even celebrities starting

00:52:39.539 --> 00:52:45.059
to be part of this yeah uh there's there's two

00:52:45.059 --> 00:52:48.500
answers to that question maybe even three and

00:52:48.500 --> 00:52:52.079
i'll start with number three don't forget the

00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:55.260
sporting events get all of the publicity but

00:52:55.260 --> 00:52:58.639
what really made atlanta the number two human

00:52:58.639 --> 00:53:01.679
trafficking destination in america is the airport

00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:06.079
okay atlanta's got the largest airport in the

00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:09.119
world And you can measure that in multiple ways.

00:53:09.639 --> 00:53:13.079
Passengers landing, passengers taking off, planes

00:53:13.079 --> 00:53:16.440
landing, planes taking off. And even today, they

00:53:16.440 --> 00:53:19.039
also measure another way is the amount of cargo

00:53:19.039 --> 00:53:21.820
that comes through your airport. Atlanta wins

00:53:21.820 --> 00:53:24.920
hands down in every category for the last decade.

00:53:25.300 --> 00:53:29.280
And the years leading up to that, they were always

00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:32.420
in the top one, two, or three. You can fly anywhere

00:53:32.420 --> 00:53:37.889
in the world directly from Atlanta. OK, and that's

00:53:37.889 --> 00:53:41.170
important because you can't do that in very many

00:53:41.170 --> 00:53:44.869
cities and you can only do it in one city anywhere

00:53:44.869 --> 00:53:47.550
in the world. And that's in Atlanta. Now, you

00:53:47.550 --> 00:53:52.110
can go to LAX, you can go to LaGuardia, you can

00:53:52.110 --> 00:53:55.230
go to Heathrow and you can fly most places in

00:53:55.230 --> 00:53:57.989
the world direct. But in Atlanta, you can fly

00:53:57.989 --> 00:54:02.710
every place in the world direct. So the airport

00:54:02.710 --> 00:54:07.380
is the is the really. the golden jewel in the

00:54:07.380 --> 00:54:09.679
human trafficking puzzle and then when you throw

00:54:09.679 --> 00:54:12.380
the sporting events and the warm weather and

00:54:12.380 --> 00:54:14.900
the interstates that come through Atlanta and

00:54:14.900 --> 00:54:17.000
so on and so on now you've got all the pieces

00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:20.239
to the puzzle that make Atlanta what it is and

00:54:20.239 --> 00:54:22.139
it would be number one if it wasn't for Las Vegas

00:54:22.139 --> 00:54:24.539
but you know we all know why Las Vegas is number

00:54:24.539 --> 00:54:28.320
one but that's that's the things that make that

00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:32.079
set Atlanta up to be unique now even though I'm

00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:36.190
working strip clubs and I'm working Mob on strip

00:54:36.190 --> 00:54:38.489
clubs. I'm working strip clubs that necessarily

00:54:38.489 --> 00:54:41.110
don't have a serious mob angle, but they have

00:54:41.110 --> 00:54:44.070
other criminal elements involved. There wasn't

00:54:44.070 --> 00:54:48.030
much of a traditional sex trafficking angle in

00:54:48.030 --> 00:54:51.210
any of those strip clubs. Where we saw in the

00:54:51.210 --> 00:54:54.690
organized crime squad, the sex trafficking was

00:54:54.690 --> 00:54:58.510
on the Asian side of the coin. So I mentioned

00:54:58.510 --> 00:55:01.349
to you earlier in our conversation that my squad

00:55:01.349 --> 00:55:05.320
were Russians, Asians. and Italians when it came

00:55:05.320 --> 00:55:09.780
to organized crime. When it came to prostitution,

00:55:09.980 --> 00:55:13.219
sex trafficking, human smuggling, the Asians

00:55:13.219 --> 00:55:16.199
100 % had that clamped down in the city of Atlanta.

00:55:16.420 --> 00:55:18.760
That's where it was coming from. And they were

00:55:18.760 --> 00:55:22.139
the perpetrators. And that was through everything

00:55:22.139 --> 00:55:27.739
from your traditional massage parlors to literally

00:55:27.739 --> 00:55:31.059
houses where girls were kept under lock and key

00:55:31.059 --> 00:55:35.239
and not allowed to leave the building. I can

00:55:35.239 --> 00:55:37.679
remember doing a search warrant early in my career,

00:55:37.840 --> 00:55:43.280
probably the 1999, 2000 era. It's a sad story,

00:55:43.440 --> 00:55:45.420
but it's got a good ending. And it's worth me

00:55:45.420 --> 00:55:48.519
telling to you, James, is that there was an agent

00:55:48.519 --> 00:55:51.579
on my squad that had developed probable cause

00:55:51.579 --> 00:55:54.579
for search warrant. There was a house not too

00:55:54.579 --> 00:55:58.099
far from the FBI office, coincidentally. that

00:55:58.099 --> 00:56:01.280
was under lock and key, had armed guards inside

00:56:01.280 --> 00:56:04.840
the front door, had bars on the window, and girls

00:56:04.840 --> 00:56:08.679
were forced to turn tricks inside the building

00:56:08.679 --> 00:56:12.500
in exchange for their freedom somewhere down

00:56:12.500 --> 00:56:14.719
the line, coming to America, whatever the deal

00:56:14.719 --> 00:56:19.579
was. So I'm a new member of the Atlanta SWAT

00:56:19.579 --> 00:56:23.760
team, FBI SWAT. We rolled up on this house. We

00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:26.400
get permission to do it in odd hours from the

00:56:26.400 --> 00:56:29.260
judge. We roll up at 1, 2 o 'clock in the morning.

00:56:29.579 --> 00:56:33.699
We yank the steel doors off of the front door.

00:56:33.840 --> 00:56:37.659
We flashbang it. We knew that there on the inside

00:56:37.659 --> 00:56:40.199
from informants that there were two gang members

00:56:40.199 --> 00:56:44.960
that sat on the inside of the door, armed, and

00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:47.059
they controlled the in and out of that building,

00:56:47.179 --> 00:56:51.420
the customers, et cetera. We knew this from informants.

00:56:53.480 --> 00:56:55.699
so we knew that we were going to have the potential

00:56:55.699 --> 00:56:58.019
for conflict and contact right there at the front

00:56:58.019 --> 00:57:01.280
door so we came prepared we banged them we clear

00:57:01.280 --> 00:57:04.780
the door we cuff them everything's fine now we

00:57:04.780 --> 00:57:06.699
start going through the house to free the girls

00:57:06.699 --> 00:57:10.460
and take care of business and somebody pulls

00:57:10.460 --> 00:57:12.500
me to the side and they said hey come check this

00:57:12.500 --> 00:57:15.860
out and right there at the at the front door

00:57:15.860 --> 00:57:18.400
where these two gang members had been seat sitting

00:57:18.400 --> 00:57:22.449
in chairs They were watching in 1999 a movie

00:57:22.449 --> 00:57:26.190
on a VHS tape as part of their entertainment,

00:57:26.369 --> 00:57:28.389
waiting on people to knock on the door so they

00:57:28.389 --> 00:57:30.869
could unlock it and let John's into the door.

00:57:31.070 --> 00:57:33.010
Guess what they were watching, James? They were

00:57:33.010 --> 00:57:37.110
watching Donnie Brasco. I don't know if you're

00:57:37.110 --> 00:57:38.849
familiar. Are you familiar with Donnie Brasco?

00:57:39.670 --> 00:57:44.789
Yeah, it's an FBI movie, right? And little did

00:57:44.789 --> 00:57:47.949
they know when they put that movie into the VHS

00:57:47.949 --> 00:57:50.679
machine. that particular night they were going

00:57:50.679 --> 00:57:53.820
to get a visit from the fbi at about two o 'clock

00:57:53.820 --> 00:57:56.019
in the morning so that's the funny part of that

00:57:56.019 --> 00:57:58.679
story but the sad part is those girls really

00:57:58.679 --> 00:58:02.900
were locked inside of that house and not allowed

00:58:02.900 --> 00:58:06.039
to leave and that was not uncommon in the asian

00:58:06.039 --> 00:58:10.699
community and one of my fbi heroes is a girl

00:58:10.699 --> 00:58:13.659
named barbara brown a very successful career

00:58:13.659 --> 00:58:18.539
and she worked cases like that Most of her career,

00:58:18.579 --> 00:58:22.000
quite frankly, she worked. There were some examples

00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:25.920
of street -level human trafficking in the black

00:58:25.920 --> 00:58:29.460
community. Here's another thing for you that

00:58:29.460 --> 00:58:31.099
would be hard for you to get your mind around

00:58:31.099 --> 00:58:33.500
in today's environment, but it existed then.

00:58:34.280 --> 00:58:38.659
Up until the late 90s, in the city of Atlanta

00:58:38.659 --> 00:58:42.199
and the state of Georgia, it was only a misdemeanor

00:58:42.199 --> 00:58:48.760
to prostitute. a 16 -year -old. I think it was

00:58:48.760 --> 00:58:52.539
a 15 and a 16 -year -old. 17 years of age was

00:58:52.539 --> 00:58:58.860
consent. 16 and 15 was a misdemeanor and 14 and

00:58:58.860 --> 00:59:03.039
below was a felony. So what the city of Atlanta

00:59:03.039 --> 00:59:05.460
was having during the buildup to the Olympics

00:59:05.460 --> 00:59:09.019
is they were having these pimps and that's exactly

00:59:09.019 --> 00:59:14.650
what they were, fur coats, hats. Cadillac cars.

00:59:14.909 --> 00:59:18.130
They were trafficking these girls in the 15 to

00:59:18.130 --> 00:59:21.889
16 year old age group, knowing that if they got

00:59:21.889 --> 00:59:24.610
arrested, they'd be out the same night because

00:59:24.610 --> 00:59:31.030
it's only a misdemeanor. So we had a city of

00:59:31.030 --> 00:59:33.849
Atlanta public official come to the FBI. I still

00:59:33.849 --> 00:59:37.260
remember this meeting very clearly today. He

00:59:37.260 --> 00:59:39.500
walks into our office after orchestrating a meeting

00:59:39.500 --> 00:59:41.340
and says, look, we have this problem in Atlanta

00:59:41.340 --> 00:59:43.699
and I can't do anything about it because there's

00:59:43.699 --> 00:59:46.780
not a law on the books at the state level that

00:59:46.780 --> 00:59:50.719
can lock these guys up as felonies. Can you help

00:59:50.719 --> 00:59:53.599
us? And Barbara Brown took that case and used

00:59:53.599 --> 00:59:56.679
some federal laws, specifically the Mann Act,

00:59:56.860 --> 01:00:00.699
that made prostituting 15 and 16 year olds a

01:00:00.699 --> 01:00:05.269
felony and cleaned that problem up. so we saw

01:00:05.269 --> 01:00:08.210
some of that at the at the black street level

01:00:08.210 --> 01:00:10.329
but the majority to answer your question was

01:00:10.329 --> 01:00:13.289
at a very organized level in the asian community

01:00:13.289 --> 01:00:17.889
when you were researching this how did that law

01:00:17.889 --> 01:00:22.530
even come to pass that prostituting girls that

01:00:22.530 --> 01:00:26.989
young was a misdemeanor well we didn't know that

01:00:26.989 --> 01:00:31.210
at the fbi per se because that's not something

01:00:31.210 --> 01:00:35.070
that we would have ever tried to prosecute If

01:00:35.070 --> 01:00:37.289
we had taken that case, we would have used federal

01:00:37.289 --> 01:00:39.329
law and we wouldn't have run into that obstacle.

01:00:39.750 --> 01:00:42.210
We only knew about it because that congressman

01:00:42.210 --> 01:00:44.690
came to us, that state representative came to

01:00:44.690 --> 01:00:48.369
us and said, I can't get any traction in my community.

01:00:48.489 --> 01:00:50.889
He was a congressman for a downtown community

01:00:50.889 --> 01:00:54.070
and I can't get any traction because the city

01:00:54.070 --> 01:00:55.849
of Atlanta will come and lock these pimps up.

01:00:56.230 --> 01:00:59.070
But the prosecutors can only charge him with

01:00:59.070 --> 01:01:01.769
a misdemeanor. So we learned about it through

01:01:01.769 --> 01:01:04.809
this guy walking into our office saying, hey,

01:01:04.829 --> 01:01:10.429
FBI, can you help us? Now, once that case became

01:01:10.429 --> 01:01:19.869
public and so on, the politicians in the state

01:01:19.869 --> 01:01:22.349
of Georgia changed that. But it took that case

01:01:22.349 --> 01:01:25.889
to get that ball rolling. One of the things that

01:01:25.889 --> 01:01:28.670
blew my mind, I was researching for my latest

01:01:28.670 --> 01:01:32.449
book that I put out last year, and I had this

01:01:32.449 --> 01:01:35.110
kind of scenario in the opening chapter, and

01:01:35.110 --> 01:01:37.590
it's kind of like a road rage thing. And I was

01:01:37.590 --> 01:01:39.489
asking my cop friends, okay, if this happens,

01:01:39.630 --> 01:01:43.230
what would be the consequence so I can make sure

01:01:43.230 --> 01:01:46.989
this pays out the right way? And in our conversations,

01:01:47.030 --> 01:01:51.309
it got to the point that if you cause an accident

01:01:51.309 --> 01:01:55.219
as a reckless driver, But you can't show that

01:01:55.219 --> 01:01:57.179
you were deliberately trying to hurt the people

01:01:57.179 --> 01:02:00.739
in whichever vehicle there were fatalities or

01:02:00.739 --> 01:02:03.619
there wasn't alcohol or drugs involved. That

01:02:03.619 --> 01:02:06.960
ultimately that became just a civil case. There

01:02:06.960 --> 01:02:09.579
was no way of actually prosecuting. And I don't

01:02:09.579 --> 01:02:11.360
think the average people know this, that the

01:02:11.360 --> 01:02:13.920
40 ,000 people that die on our roads, and we've

01:02:13.920 --> 01:02:16.619
all seen those drivers that cause a lot of these

01:02:16.619 --> 01:02:19.360
accidents. We've all watched them cry on the

01:02:19.360 --> 01:02:22.019
curb. feeling sorry for themselves after they've

01:02:22.019 --> 01:02:24.780
killed, you know, three kids in a minivan. I

01:02:24.780 --> 01:02:27.380
had no idea, but that is actually a real thing

01:02:27.380 --> 01:02:29.860
as well. We talk about the law as an ass, that

01:02:29.860 --> 01:02:33.360
you can drive like a complete asshole, kill a

01:02:33.360 --> 01:02:35.920
family. And if you weren't drunk or deliberately

01:02:35.920 --> 01:02:39.300
trying to target that family on a prosecution

01:02:39.300 --> 01:02:42.599
level, you may not see any time in jail. And

01:02:42.599 --> 01:02:44.559
that I think is a law that we need to change.

01:02:47.289 --> 01:02:50.690
Yeah. Sometimes you can do nothing but just shake

01:02:50.690 --> 01:02:54.570
your head and say, why did it take this long

01:02:54.570 --> 01:03:00.909
to realize that that's a problem and why? I would

01:03:00.909 --> 01:03:03.409
be confident to say that that has been identified

01:03:03.409 --> 01:03:07.329
and addressed before, but someone intervened

01:03:07.329 --> 01:03:11.829
with an ulterior motive, maybe to have it go

01:03:11.829 --> 01:03:14.170
a different direction. And normally that's money.

01:03:14.780 --> 01:03:17.320
And there's some influence behind that, whether

01:03:17.320 --> 01:03:21.699
it be corporate or private. But what I found

01:03:21.699 --> 01:03:26.300
in my time in the FBI and then living up in North

01:03:26.300 --> 01:03:29.199
Georgia and being friends with my local congressmen

01:03:29.199 --> 01:03:35.739
and politicians that, you know, there's a lot

01:03:35.739 --> 01:03:37.599
of influence when it comes to there's a lot of

01:03:37.599 --> 01:03:39.239
corporate influence. There's a lot of monetary

01:03:39.239 --> 01:03:41.179
influence when it comes to writing these laws.

01:03:41.320 --> 01:03:43.199
And we all know that I'm not saying anything

01:03:43.199 --> 01:03:48.940
that's. that is not known, but I got to see it

01:03:48.940 --> 01:03:50.800
a little bit firsthand and hear it firsthand

01:03:50.800 --> 01:03:53.860
as well about the influence from corporate lobbyists

01:03:53.860 --> 01:03:56.980
and so forth, ill -gotten corporate lobbyists.

01:03:57.099 --> 01:04:00.500
And I think the story you're telling, if you

01:04:00.500 --> 01:04:02.400
traced it and pulled the thread, you'd go back

01:04:02.400 --> 01:04:04.960
to some type of lobbyist intervention. Yeah,

01:04:05.000 --> 01:04:07.179
I'm sure. Absolutely. But I think it's, again,

01:04:07.260 --> 01:04:09.280
we were talking about the people pushing back.

01:04:09.900 --> 01:04:12.159
It's amazing how many things I think we just

01:04:12.159 --> 01:04:14.400
don't know about. And if the average person did,

01:04:14.619 --> 01:04:17.760
you know, we would push back. But yeah, it's

01:04:17.760 --> 01:04:20.019
an important. And so so the question. So why

01:04:20.019 --> 01:04:22.820
was that? Why was that a misdemeanor in the city

01:04:22.820 --> 01:04:26.000
of Atlanta? And it was because the law was so

01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:28.800
old that, you know, remember, 100 years ago,

01:04:28.860 --> 01:04:32.219
it wasn't uncommon for 15 year olds to get married

01:04:32.219 --> 01:04:36.320
and have children. But now we're in 1990s and

01:04:36.320 --> 01:04:39.559
the Olympics are in Atlanta. and and the instead

01:04:39.559 --> 01:04:41.880
of rewriting that law and updating it to the

01:04:41.880 --> 01:04:45.760
new cultural norms they just slapped a misdemeanor

01:04:45.760 --> 01:04:47.500
on and pushed it through and said we'll be done

01:04:47.500 --> 01:04:49.440
with it and that'll take care of the problem

01:04:49.440 --> 01:04:50.960
well it didn't take care of the problem in fact

01:04:50.960 --> 01:04:55.619
it made it worse yeah absolutely well we we spoke

01:04:55.619 --> 01:04:57.900
before i hit record and we talked about afghanistan

01:04:57.900 --> 01:05:01.739
so before we get to that chapter what was the

01:05:01.739 --> 01:05:04.059
day of 9 11 like for you because you had a very

01:05:04.059 --> 01:05:06.440
unusual lens working in the role that you did

01:05:08.059 --> 01:05:11.500
Yeah. I know exactly where I was at on 9 -11,

01:05:11.679 --> 01:05:14.980
probably like you do too, you as well. I was

01:05:14.980 --> 01:05:19.900
sitting in my boss's office and I was going to

01:05:19.900 --> 01:05:23.300
arrest on September the 11th, a captain in a

01:05:23.300 --> 01:05:26.539
local police department. And that captain was

01:05:26.539 --> 01:05:30.380
taking bribes from a strip club to look the other

01:05:30.380 --> 01:05:33.019
direction while they committed prostitution and

01:05:33.019 --> 01:05:35.769
drug activity and some other things. And he was

01:05:35.769 --> 01:05:41.929
involved in that prostitution as well also. And

01:05:41.929 --> 01:05:46.030
one of the things that we did in the FBI is in

01:05:46.030 --> 01:05:52.429
an atmosphere of fair play is our chain of command

01:05:52.429 --> 01:05:55.849
had our general rule that we will call the chain

01:05:55.849 --> 01:05:58.030
of command of another law enforcement agency

01:05:58.030 --> 01:06:00.349
when we're getting ready to arrest one of their

01:06:00.349 --> 01:06:04.090
police officers. If we can, and it doesn't compromise

01:06:04.090 --> 01:06:07.110
the case. And in this particular investigation,

01:06:07.510 --> 01:06:09.949
it didn't compromise the case. So I'm sitting

01:06:09.949 --> 01:06:14.250
in my boss's office and he's 30 seconds from

01:06:14.250 --> 01:06:16.670
picking up the telephone and calling the chief

01:06:16.670 --> 01:06:19.230
police for this local jurisdiction to say, hey,

01:06:19.269 --> 01:06:21.210
my agents are going to go pick up one of your

01:06:21.210 --> 01:06:23.869
officers today. And I wanted to give you a heads

01:06:23.869 --> 01:06:26.309
up so you're not reading about it in the newspaper

01:06:26.309 --> 01:06:31.619
and caught flat footed. 30 seconds before he

01:06:31.619 --> 01:06:33.739
makes that phone call he has a television on

01:06:33.739 --> 01:06:38.000
in his office in the first airplane strikes and

01:06:38.000 --> 01:06:40.900
we all say well you know wow that's interesting

01:06:40.900 --> 01:06:44.320
and then of course we the phone call doesn't

01:06:44.320 --> 01:06:46.800
happen because we get engrossed in what's going

01:06:46.800 --> 01:06:50.340
on in the tv and and to his wisdom he's my boss

01:06:50.340 --> 01:06:53.300
said you know what let's hold on this arrest

01:06:53.300 --> 01:06:56.320
i think we got some bigger issues that are that

01:06:56.320 --> 01:06:59.619
are happening right here in front of us and um

01:07:00.559 --> 01:07:03.639
I ended up arresting that officer about two to

01:07:03.639 --> 01:07:05.539
three months later. I think he had Thanksgiving

01:07:05.539 --> 01:07:07.960
at home, but we arrested him and he had Christmas

01:07:07.960 --> 01:07:12.280
in jail is the way it worked out. But me personally,

01:07:12.500 --> 01:07:17.559
I was reassigned from my everyday organized crime

01:07:17.559 --> 01:07:20.900
investigations to the Dobbins Air Force Base

01:07:20.900 --> 01:07:24.920
up in North Atlanta, a suburb of Atlanta, which

01:07:24.920 --> 01:07:29.190
was an old World War II. military base uh it's

01:07:29.190 --> 01:07:31.710
co -located with lockheed and they manufacture

01:07:31.710 --> 01:07:34.809
the c -130 there and now they manufacture the

01:07:34.809 --> 01:07:38.849
f -22 fighter there and the air force reserves

01:07:38.849 --> 01:07:42.269
uses the base also so it's a joint civilian joint

01:07:42.269 --> 01:07:46.530
military national guard type of airfield because

01:07:46.530 --> 01:07:50.130
it was deemed a critical asset myself and some

01:07:50.130 --> 01:07:53.250
other agents who lived in that area were now

01:07:53.250 --> 01:07:57.280
assigned full -time to work up there and handle

01:07:57.280 --> 01:08:00.119
any leads and threats to that Air Force Base.

01:08:00.380 --> 01:08:03.340
And that's what I did for roughly the next six

01:08:03.340 --> 01:08:07.719
months after 9 -11 is handle leads involving

01:08:07.719 --> 01:08:11.179
Dobbins Air Force Base until we had a little

01:08:11.179 --> 01:08:13.380
bit of a normalcy and we all came back to working

01:08:13.380 --> 01:08:17.479
our regular investigations. Did you see any common

01:08:17.479 --> 01:08:19.920
denominators in the backstory of the corrupt

01:08:19.920 --> 01:08:26.020
cops that you had to arrest? Yeah, sex, drugs

01:08:26.020 --> 01:08:29.659
and rock and roll. I mean, that's that's that's

01:08:29.659 --> 01:08:34.659
cliche, but it's true, James. Yeah, most of the

01:08:34.659 --> 01:08:38.699
I think I had this number in my mind at one time.

01:08:38.699 --> 01:08:41.439
And now I think I'm right. I think in my career,

01:08:41.539 --> 01:08:44.579
I arrested seven police officers, six police

01:08:44.579 --> 01:08:51.079
officers and one jailer. And five, four or five

01:08:51.079 --> 01:08:55.149
of those police officers were involved in. having

01:08:55.149 --> 01:08:59.130
sex at the clubs that they were responsible for

01:08:59.130 --> 01:09:03.250
enforcing the laws on. The other ones that I

01:09:03.250 --> 01:09:05.250
arrested were taking bribes, taking financial

01:09:05.250 --> 01:09:08.989
benefit for looking the other way. So that was

01:09:08.989 --> 01:09:11.670
it. That was either sex or money, one of the

01:09:11.670 --> 01:09:14.789
two. Gotcha. All right. Well, you mentioned about

01:09:14.789 --> 01:09:17.789
Afghanistan. So how did you find yourself working

01:09:17.789 --> 01:09:24.409
in a team that actually deployed overseas? Somewhere

01:09:24.409 --> 01:09:29.529
in the mid 2000s, late 2000s, you're probably

01:09:29.529 --> 01:09:33.550
starting in the mid 2000s. The Bush administration

01:09:33.550 --> 01:09:36.090
and then the Obama administration made a decision

01:09:36.090 --> 01:09:38.710
that we may bring some of these terrorists that

01:09:38.710 --> 01:09:41.510
we find overseas that we don't kill that we actually

01:09:41.510 --> 01:09:44.090
capture alive and bring them back to the United

01:09:44.090 --> 01:09:47.710
States to trial for trial to try them in the

01:09:47.710 --> 01:09:51.890
US. Well, that sounds good on paper. but with

01:09:51.890 --> 01:09:55.930
that comes a variety of legal issues so let's

01:09:55.930 --> 01:09:58.949
just take any scenario generic say let's say

01:09:58.949 --> 01:10:04.729
an oda team goes into a bad guy's house and they

01:10:04.729 --> 01:10:08.810
capture him and they find his laptop and later

01:10:08.810 --> 01:10:11.789
we look at his laptop government u .s government

01:10:11.789 --> 01:10:14.630
looks at his laptop and finds bombing plans on

01:10:14.630 --> 01:10:17.250
there that's somebody we want to bring back to

01:10:17.250 --> 01:10:23.640
the states and try well the Special Forces team,

01:10:23.840 --> 01:10:27.479
ODA, Green Berets that captured this guy would

01:10:27.479 --> 01:10:30.760
technically have to go on the witness stand and

01:10:30.760 --> 01:10:34.579
testify that they found this laptop at this date,

01:10:34.659 --> 01:10:36.659
at this time, in this location. They would be

01:10:36.659 --> 01:10:39.250
the witnesses in a trial. in other words but

01:10:39.250 --> 01:10:41.850
when you start putting military guys up as witnesses

01:10:41.850 --> 01:10:44.350
and trials it exposes them to other questions

01:10:44.350 --> 01:10:47.750
from the defense that the military may not want

01:10:47.750 --> 01:10:50.630
exposed or to go down that road because it's

01:10:50.630 --> 01:10:53.090
just not good business and so forth about other

01:10:53.090 --> 01:10:55.909
cases that they've been involved in that the

01:10:55.909 --> 01:10:58.590
judicial the u .s judicial system would allow

01:10:58.590 --> 01:11:00.970
these defense attorneys to ask these questions

01:11:00.970 --> 01:11:06.340
so a decision was made why don't we take FBI

01:11:06.340 --> 01:11:09.800
agents, embed them into the special forces units.

01:11:10.159 --> 01:11:13.000
And then when they roll up on a target, let them

01:11:13.000 --> 01:11:15.979
do the search warrants, let them do the interrogations,

01:11:16.060 --> 01:11:18.760
let them ask the questions, get the confessions,

01:11:18.960 --> 01:11:21.399
find the evidence so that if there's a trial

01:11:21.399 --> 01:11:24.140
back in the United States, we can put an FBI

01:11:24.140 --> 01:11:27.180
agent on the witness stand instead of a SEAL

01:11:27.180 --> 01:11:29.420
team member or Delta team member and et cetera,

01:11:29.460 --> 01:11:31.380
and expose them to a litany of other questions.

01:11:32.079 --> 01:11:36.529
So For five plus years, that program ran where

01:11:36.529 --> 01:11:39.529
we FBI agents were embedded in these units to

01:11:39.529 --> 01:11:43.130
help out for that reason. I'll ask you something

01:11:43.130 --> 01:11:45.989
I ask everyone that's been deployed into a combat

01:11:45.989 --> 01:11:48.090
zone. And the backstory I kind of touched on

01:11:48.090 --> 01:11:52.020
the reason for this question is. At home, we

01:11:52.020 --> 01:11:56.140
tend to get a very polarizing view on war, either

01:11:56.140 --> 01:11:59.039
the kill them all, let God sort them out, or

01:11:59.039 --> 01:12:01.880
they're all baby killers. And in the middle are

01:12:01.880 --> 01:12:03.899
the men and women that actually deploy with our

01:12:03.899 --> 01:12:07.020
flag on their shoulder. And so I think they're

01:12:07.020 --> 01:12:10.260
the most valuable testimony. The first part of

01:12:10.260 --> 01:12:12.579
the question, regardless of the politics that

01:12:12.579 --> 01:12:15.079
sent you over there, was there a point where

01:12:15.079 --> 01:12:17.699
you realized that there were horrible people

01:12:17.699 --> 01:12:21.630
out there that needed to be taken care of? Absolutely.

01:12:22.090 --> 01:12:27.109
And it didn't take long. Agents were doing other

01:12:27.109 --> 01:12:29.989
things other than being embedded with special

01:12:29.989 --> 01:12:32.850
forces units. We were running sources overseas

01:12:32.850 --> 01:12:37.949
that were informants that had information about

01:12:37.949 --> 01:12:42.649
targets in the U .S. and otherwise. And that's

01:12:42.649 --> 01:12:44.630
public knowledge. I'm not saying anything out

01:12:44.630 --> 01:12:47.630
of school. Agents were working with locals in

01:12:47.630 --> 01:12:52.220
a training capacity, how to do search warrants,

01:12:52.260 --> 01:12:57.140
how to put handcuffs on somebody, quite frankly,

01:12:57.279 --> 01:13:00.239
just the rudimentaries of everyday law enforcement.

01:13:01.439 --> 01:13:04.300
And through the course of all these interactions

01:13:04.300 --> 01:13:09.600
with the local Afghans, you're going to see these

01:13:09.600 --> 01:13:11.800
things that you just asked about. You're going

01:13:11.800 --> 01:13:14.300
to see one, the corruption within the Afghan

01:13:15.159 --> 01:13:17.979
community itself to include law enforcement and

01:13:17.979 --> 01:13:20.720
their military but you're also going to see that

01:13:20.720 --> 01:13:23.340
they're working against ruthless criminals and

01:13:23.340 --> 01:13:25.859
ruthless bad guys that fit your description that

01:13:25.859 --> 01:13:29.220
yeah you almost want to say kill them all and

01:13:29.220 --> 01:13:32.680
let god sort them out it doesn't take long no

01:13:32.680 --> 01:13:36.300
matter where you're at in that litany of responsibilities

01:13:36.300 --> 01:13:39.279
whether you're working with the locals just to

01:13:39.279 --> 01:13:41.760
teach them or whether you're actually going out

01:13:41.760 --> 01:13:44.489
on target you you're going to learn that there

01:13:44.489 --> 01:13:47.149
are bad guys, no doubt. And you're not going

01:13:47.149 --> 01:13:49.430
to learn it just through hearsay and secondhand.

01:13:49.489 --> 01:13:52.750
You're going to see it firsthand. Well, the other

01:13:52.750 --> 01:13:54.970
side of that coin that I think we also never

01:13:54.970 --> 01:13:58.010
really hear on media back home is the kindness

01:13:58.010 --> 01:14:00.670
and compassion, whether it was within members

01:14:00.670 --> 01:14:03.010
of our own military and law enforcement or the

01:14:03.010 --> 01:14:04.869
indigenous people that you were there to protect.

01:14:05.170 --> 01:14:07.170
But what were some of the examples of that that

01:14:07.170 --> 01:14:16.819
you remember? December of 2009, I was working

01:14:16.819 --> 01:14:23.380
at the embassy in Kabul. And one of the outreach

01:14:23.380 --> 01:14:26.579
programs at the embassy had was a Christmas program.

01:14:27.079 --> 01:14:30.819
It wasn't a Christmas program in the sense of,

01:14:30.920 --> 01:14:33.760
let's talk about the birth of Jesus. But it was

01:14:33.760 --> 01:14:36.319
a Christmas program in the universal sense of

01:14:36.319 --> 01:14:39.479
let's hand out gifts and have food and, you know,

01:14:39.479 --> 01:14:46.920
the worldly Christmas experience. So the U .S.

01:14:47.020 --> 01:14:49.079
Embassy arranged through a vetting process to

01:14:49.079 --> 01:14:53.840
bring orphans and a lot of disadvantaged Afghan

01:14:53.840 --> 01:14:56.720
children onto the grounds of the U .S. Embassy,

01:14:56.859 --> 01:14:59.439
have this party in their honor, give them gifts,

01:14:59.659 --> 01:15:02.420
give them food. And then the employees of the

01:15:02.420 --> 01:15:04.720
embassy or the people working at the embassy

01:15:04.720 --> 01:15:10.300
would kind of be their mentor, chaperone for

01:15:10.300 --> 01:15:13.109
that event. know play games with them and do

01:15:13.109 --> 01:15:17.069
things of that nature and you know i still remember

01:15:17.069 --> 01:15:19.029
a little girl that was probably six seven years

01:15:19.029 --> 01:15:21.810
old that i actually have some photographs to

01:15:21.810 --> 01:15:24.850
this day uh uh taking a bean bag and playing

01:15:24.850 --> 01:15:27.029
catch with a bean bag and she thought that was

01:15:27.029 --> 01:15:29.210
the greatest thing in the world for me to be

01:15:29.210 --> 01:15:31.729
able to throw a bean bag three feet she catches

01:15:31.729 --> 01:15:35.630
it throws it back to me and etc and you know

01:15:35.630 --> 01:15:38.289
you see this just innocence of a six and seven

01:15:38.289 --> 01:15:40.890
year old girl you know playing with a beanbag

01:15:40.890 --> 01:15:42.869
you see these little boys that can't wait to

01:15:42.869 --> 01:15:47.270
eat hard candy and kids waiting to get shoes

01:15:47.270 --> 01:15:50.470
and lace them up and so forth so when you when

01:15:50.470 --> 01:15:52.510
you see the stories like that you know you know

01:15:52.510 --> 01:15:56.850
there's a real humanitarian issue you know there's

01:15:56.850 --> 01:15:59.930
uh obviously at this young age these children

01:15:59.930 --> 01:16:03.930
have a fair amount of innocence so it's it's

01:16:03.930 --> 01:16:07.430
heartwarming and it's hard not to be Now, we

01:16:07.430 --> 01:16:09.789
we discussed before we hit record as well. I'm

01:16:09.789 --> 01:16:11.630
jumping ahead. We'll go back to the gold club.

01:16:11.670 --> 01:16:16.189
But when the withdrawal actually happened, you

01:16:16.189 --> 01:16:18.369
know, I've heard so many people on here. And

01:16:18.369 --> 01:16:21.189
there's that kind of tug of war between knowing

01:16:21.189 --> 01:16:23.270
that they did make a difference. But obviously,

01:16:23.310 --> 01:16:25.970
the way that it was, you know, the way the withdrawal

01:16:25.970 --> 01:16:28.869
unfolded and then the ease with which the Taliban

01:16:28.869 --> 01:16:31.850
came in and took everything over again, clearly

01:16:31.850 --> 01:16:35.729
has a negative impact, too. So talk to me about,

01:16:35.729 --> 01:16:38.569
you know, that through your eyes, the interpreter

01:16:38.569 --> 01:16:42.069
and what that did for the people that we were

01:16:42.069 --> 01:16:46.489
able to get back, how that impacted the ability

01:16:46.489 --> 01:16:48.510
for them to bring their family back over to.

01:16:50.930 --> 01:16:53.569
Yeah, frankly, James, it just it crushed it.

01:16:54.670 --> 01:17:00.090
So often the experience is that you would have.

01:17:00.660 --> 01:17:03.260
siblings within a family that will work with

01:17:03.260 --> 01:17:07.000
the U .S. You would have two or three brothers

01:17:07.000 --> 01:17:10.760
that had come from a what the Afghans would call

01:17:10.760 --> 01:17:12.899
a middle class family, had gotten themselves

01:17:12.899 --> 01:17:15.680
educated, had learned English as a second language.

01:17:16.020 --> 01:17:18.159
And then when the war happened, they saw this

01:17:18.159 --> 01:17:20.600
as an opportunity, one, to make money. I can

01:17:20.600 --> 01:17:23.159
be a translator for a military government unit.

01:17:24.180 --> 01:17:26.920
And then, hey, look. And if this helps me get

01:17:26.920 --> 01:17:28.979
a visa to the United States, well, that's even

01:17:28.979 --> 01:17:32.380
a bigger bonus, right? And you would see brother

01:17:32.380 --> 01:17:36.779
number one go through this process, get a visa

01:17:36.779 --> 01:17:39.300
after five, six, seven years of working with

01:17:39.300 --> 01:17:42.420
U .S. forces. He's vetted, and now he has a visa

01:17:42.420 --> 01:17:45.560
to come to the U .S. A couple years later, maybe

01:17:45.560 --> 01:17:47.659
brother number two and then brother number three.

01:17:47.680 --> 01:17:52.600
And you slowly saw that families relocated, families

01:17:52.600 --> 01:17:55.180
that were supporting the U .S. effort. and the

01:17:55.180 --> 01:17:58.880
Allied effort were relocating to the United States.

01:17:59.659 --> 01:18:04.680
But when the implosion happened, as I call it,

01:18:04.739 --> 01:18:10.180
where things went back to the Taliban, the brother

01:18:10.180 --> 01:18:13.319
that had made it to the States now realizes that

01:18:13.319 --> 01:18:15.819
the other brother who hasn't quite made it out

01:18:15.819 --> 01:18:20.460
yet isn't going to make it. When we pulled our

01:18:20.460 --> 01:18:22.699
State Department employees out of Afghanistan,

01:18:22.880 --> 01:18:26.100
that stopped really the visa process. It still

01:18:26.100 --> 01:18:28.600
exists on paper, but now it can't go through

01:18:28.600 --> 01:18:32.359
the U .S. Embassy in Kabul anymore like it did.

01:18:32.439 --> 01:18:39.659
It has to go through some third -hand imagination.

01:18:39.880 --> 01:18:43.899
So it slowed it down almost to a stop. So when

01:18:43.899 --> 01:18:46.539
I talk to my interpreter, for example, who is

01:18:46.539 --> 01:18:49.779
now living in the United States, Every time I

01:18:49.779 --> 01:18:52.199
talk to him, the first thing he'll ask me is,

01:18:52.239 --> 01:18:54.140
hey, can you do anything to help me get my brother

01:18:54.140 --> 01:18:57.600
to the US? Now, three, four, five years ago,

01:18:57.659 --> 01:19:00.180
he would have been 100 % confident that it was

01:19:00.180 --> 01:19:02.220
only a matter of time before his brother made

01:19:02.220 --> 01:19:05.539
it. But now that things have imploded, he knows

01:19:05.539 --> 01:19:08.600
that unless it's some type of underground network,

01:19:08.779 --> 01:19:10.500
his brother's not going to make it over. So now

01:19:10.500 --> 01:19:13.260
you have these families that are split, not because

01:19:13.260 --> 01:19:15.500
they want to be split, not because one side is

01:19:15.500 --> 01:19:18.649
pro -Taliban and one side's pro -US. Now you

01:19:18.649 --> 01:19:23.630
have these families split because the U .S. kind

01:19:23.630 --> 01:19:26.789
of pulled the rug out from underneath them. It's

01:19:26.789 --> 01:19:28.329
just important for people to hear this. I mean,

01:19:28.350 --> 01:19:31.109
this is the responsibility that we have. And

01:19:31.109 --> 01:19:33.170
I've had so many members of the military on here,

01:19:33.229 --> 01:19:36.170
so many people that are actually Afghan or Iraqi

01:19:36.170 --> 01:19:39.590
that have been on here. And, you know, even when

01:19:39.590 --> 01:19:42.729
we do pull out all the people, one of my Afghan

01:19:42.729 --> 01:19:44.630
friends was saying that the problem with that

01:19:44.630 --> 01:19:47.270
is that now you're robbing. the country of all

01:19:47.270 --> 01:19:49.710
their greatest minds. So now that doesn't help

01:19:49.710 --> 01:19:51.550
in the progress of that own country. So it's

01:19:51.550 --> 01:19:55.149
such a, you know, a puzzle in a way, but I mean,

01:19:55.170 --> 01:19:58.250
no one, I don't think no one will disagree on

01:19:58.250 --> 01:20:00.909
the fact that the way we actually left, whether

01:20:00.909 --> 01:20:02.770
it was time, whether it wasn't, whether we should

01:20:02.770 --> 01:20:04.869
have been out, you know, 10 years prior, whatever

01:20:04.869 --> 01:20:09.710
that conversation, the way that we left was completely

01:20:09.710 --> 01:20:12.250
unacceptable and it destroyed the trust of any

01:20:12.250 --> 01:20:14.930
potential nation that we interact with in the

01:20:14.930 --> 01:20:19.920
future. You're 100 % right, and I think most

01:20:19.920 --> 01:20:25.399
people realize that, James. To go back to a little

01:20:25.399 --> 01:20:28.279
earlier comment about the brain drain that might

01:20:28.279 --> 01:20:30.840
have happened in the country, what was happening

01:20:30.840 --> 01:20:33.840
under the old system was that, yeah, these guys

01:20:33.840 --> 01:20:36.300
would leave and come to the U .S. under a visa,

01:20:36.420 --> 01:20:38.739
but a lot of them would come back to Afghanistan.

01:20:39.279 --> 01:20:42.520
They would come back to continue to work with

01:20:42.520 --> 01:20:45.960
the U .S. military. as long as their family was

01:20:45.960 --> 01:20:48.399
now living in the U .S., they were willing to

01:20:48.399 --> 01:20:52.239
accept the danger, but they wanted to make sure

01:20:52.239 --> 01:20:55.640
their family was now in the U .S. So by coming

01:20:55.640 --> 01:21:00.100
back to Afghanistan, that brought some of those

01:21:00.100 --> 01:21:02.699
guys back into the country. Obviously, they were

01:21:02.699 --> 01:21:05.220
bringing the U .S. dollars back into the country

01:21:05.220 --> 01:21:07.460
as well. They're sending money back to family

01:21:07.460 --> 01:21:11.020
members, and they know that safely. It's getting

01:21:11.020 --> 01:21:12.939
to their family members, even if they mail it

01:21:12.939 --> 01:21:14.779
directly from the U .S., that it was going to

01:21:14.779 --> 01:21:18.100
get there. Now, none of those things have any

01:21:18.100 --> 01:21:22.479
security or sense of guarantee. One, these smart

01:21:22.479 --> 01:21:25.300
individuals can no longer come back into the

01:21:25.300 --> 01:21:28.199
country, their persona non grata, and they don't

01:21:28.199 --> 01:21:30.180
dare send their money back because they know

01:21:30.180 --> 01:21:32.739
the Taliban will steal it. So not only do you

01:21:32.739 --> 01:21:35.760
have a brain drain, now you have this financial

01:21:35.760 --> 01:21:38.880
drain that's happening as well, and that's affecting.

01:21:39.390 --> 01:21:43.829
people left behind as well one of the the things

01:21:43.829 --> 01:21:46.449
that was really interesting about the kind of

01:21:46.449 --> 01:21:49.550
the transition over the eight and a half years

01:21:49.550 --> 01:21:53.029
of this podcast i talk a lot about drug prohibition

01:21:53.029 --> 01:21:56.350
and i'll get into that in a sec but when i first

01:21:56.350 --> 01:21:58.510
asked you know people especially in the special

01:21:58.510 --> 01:22:01.229
operations special forces community that would

01:22:01.229 --> 01:22:04.489
mention poppy fields it was a very taboo thing

01:22:04.489 --> 01:22:07.399
that immediately you know um Try and change the

01:22:07.399 --> 01:22:08.880
subject. And I'm not someone that's going to

01:22:08.880 --> 01:22:12.079
push anything you don't want to talk about. But

01:22:12.079 --> 01:22:14.800
about three or four years in, all of a sudden

01:22:14.800 --> 01:22:16.479
they were like, oh, yeah, you know, that was

01:22:16.479 --> 01:22:18.460
funding a lot of the terrorism that we were seeing.

01:22:19.140 --> 01:22:22.479
From my lens, this is where I do know as a firefighter

01:22:22.479 --> 01:22:25.239
and a paramedic in America, I watched for 14

01:22:25.239 --> 01:22:29.130
years the impact of prohibition. on not only

01:22:29.130 --> 01:22:31.470
the overdoses that I saw, but the prostitution,

01:22:31.689 --> 01:22:34.869
the homelessness, the gang membership and the

01:22:34.869 --> 01:22:38.109
violence that came along with that. And so this

01:22:38.109 --> 01:22:40.869
is my personal opinion, having interviewed the

01:22:40.869 --> 01:22:42.949
guy in Portugal that decriminalized addiction,

01:22:43.289 --> 01:22:49.069
not legalized all drugs, that our kind of war

01:22:49.069 --> 01:22:51.350
on drugs model, at least through my eyes, has

01:22:51.350 --> 01:22:53.069
been an epic failure. And it's interesting because

01:22:53.069 --> 01:22:56.270
almost every single law enforcement officer I

01:22:56.270 --> 01:22:58.850
have on here says the same thing. You have an

01:22:58.850 --> 01:23:00.510
interesting lens, though. You were in Afghanistan.

01:23:00.710 --> 01:23:03.630
You were here and working with a lot of the organized

01:23:03.630 --> 01:23:09.489
crime side. What is your opinion on, and I'm

01:23:09.489 --> 01:23:13.489
not talking about giving smugglers or dealers

01:23:13.489 --> 01:23:17.270
any leniency whatsoever. The Portuguese model

01:23:17.270 --> 01:23:20.689
freed up the manpower and law enforcement and

01:23:20.689 --> 01:23:23.079
the court system. to cut the head off the snake

01:23:23.079 --> 01:23:25.359
when it came to dealers and smugglers. But the

01:23:25.359 --> 01:23:27.420
addict was put into the hands of the medical

01:23:27.420 --> 01:23:29.760
community and they created addiction counseling,

01:23:29.859 --> 01:23:34.079
job creation, housing, and they fixed the broken

01:23:34.079 --> 01:23:37.420
human and therefore reduced the kind of demand

01:23:37.420 --> 01:23:40.779
in the supply and demand curve. So in this long,

01:23:40.859 --> 01:23:42.779
that was a long kind of monologue pre -question,

01:23:42.779 --> 01:23:46.020
in this interesting career that you had, what

01:23:46.020 --> 01:23:49.100
is your perception of drug prohibition in the

01:23:49.100 --> 01:23:52.430
US? And based on that, is there a way we can

01:23:52.430 --> 01:23:57.069
do it better? Yeah, that's a tough question,

01:23:57.189 --> 01:23:59.750
right? And it's kind of like been the proverbial

01:23:59.750 --> 01:24:02.470
million dollar question for a long time now.

01:24:02.810 --> 01:24:06.350
When I was in Afghanistan the second time, I

01:24:06.350 --> 01:24:08.630
was part of what we call the Major Crimes Task

01:24:08.630 --> 01:24:12.310
Force, working with the local Afghan law enforcement

01:24:12.310 --> 01:24:15.500
agencies to stop opium smuggling. and public

01:24:15.500 --> 01:24:17.880
corruption and kidnappings. That was the three

01:24:17.880 --> 01:24:21.140
big crimes, kidnappings for ransom, corruption

01:24:21.140 --> 01:24:23.699
to turn a blind eye to the drug smuggling and

01:24:23.699 --> 01:24:25.880
the kidnappings, and then the drug smuggling

01:24:25.880 --> 01:24:29.399
to find the terrorists. We would routinely knock

01:24:29.399 --> 01:24:32.760
off 18 wheelers that were loaded with raw opium.

01:24:32.899 --> 01:24:37.699
We flew over fields of opium as far as the eye

01:24:37.699 --> 01:24:41.140
could see. I was co -located with a DEA unit.

01:24:42.029 --> 01:24:44.510
that used to take tractors out to these opium

01:24:44.510 --> 01:24:49.329
fields and plow them up and destroy the opium

01:24:49.329 --> 01:24:53.050
and then pay the farmer in U .S. currency to

01:24:53.050 --> 01:24:56.470
try and plant something else and so forth. So

01:24:56.470 --> 01:25:02.310
I saw it from that perspective and it was 50

01:25:02.310 --> 01:25:05.090
-50 at best, mostly unsuccessful, but 50 -50

01:25:05.090 --> 01:25:08.739
at best. And now the second part of that equation

01:25:08.739 --> 01:25:12.859
is about bringing the legality of it into the

01:25:12.859 --> 01:25:15.779
U .S. and so forth. And you mentioned the term

01:25:15.779 --> 01:25:22.539
war on drugs. I have always said that we do not

01:25:22.539 --> 01:25:25.399
have a war on drugs. We only say we have a war

01:25:25.399 --> 01:25:30.079
on drugs. So behind me here in my office, I have

01:25:30.079 --> 01:25:33.159
a picture of myself shaking hands with Ronald

01:25:33.159 --> 01:25:36.149
Reagan. When I graduated from the Citadel, Ronald

01:25:36.149 --> 01:25:41.810
Reagan gave me my diploma. One of the best photos

01:25:41.810 --> 01:25:45.350
that I own, as you can imagine. And Ronald Reagan

01:25:45.350 --> 01:25:49.329
invented the term the war on drugs. He and Nancy

01:25:49.329 --> 01:25:52.250
Reagan, the war on drugs. And as much as I love

01:25:52.250 --> 01:25:54.289
Ronald Reagan, we did not have a war on drugs.

01:25:54.590 --> 01:25:57.729
We have a war on terrorism. We will go anywhere

01:25:57.729 --> 01:26:00.869
on the planet to fight terrorism, but we do not

01:26:00.869 --> 01:26:04.649
have a war on drugs. However. Now we're starting

01:26:04.649 --> 01:26:07.550
to see Donald Trump talk about going to Mexico

01:26:07.550 --> 01:26:12.369
and taking the fight to the cartels, right, to

01:26:12.369 --> 01:26:15.609
stop the flow of drugs into the U .S., which

01:26:15.609 --> 01:26:17.689
is what we do with terrorism. We take the fight

01:26:17.689 --> 01:26:20.869
to them so they can't get to us. So the theory

01:26:20.869 --> 01:26:23.850
is we take the fight to Mexico, to Latin America,

01:26:23.970 --> 01:26:29.510
so they can't get the drugs to us. I was a drug

01:26:29.510 --> 01:26:32.789
agent the second half of my career. for 10 years

01:26:32.789 --> 01:26:35.729
i moved up to north georgia and i was on what's

01:26:35.729 --> 01:26:38.409
called a safe streets task force where we tackle

01:26:38.409 --> 01:26:41.789
the problems that are most prevalent in these

01:26:41.789 --> 01:26:44.250
small communities which is almost always drugs

01:26:44.250 --> 01:26:48.609
and then secondly would be gangs drugs and gangs

01:26:48.609 --> 01:26:52.710
and they normally go hand in hand and i'm going

01:26:52.710 --> 01:26:54.989
to try and answer your question directly you're

01:26:54.989 --> 01:26:57.850
talking about the portuguese model and so forth

01:26:59.850 --> 01:27:03.130
I saw people's lives who were completely ruined

01:27:03.130 --> 01:27:06.250
and turned upside down from drug use. The only

01:27:06.250 --> 01:27:08.010
thing they thought about every moment that they

01:27:08.010 --> 01:27:09.689
woke up is where are they going to get their

01:27:09.689 --> 01:27:14.890
neck fix? What do I have to steal today and sell

01:27:14.890 --> 01:27:18.970
tomorrow so I can have drugs before I start jonesing?

01:27:19.510 --> 01:27:22.970
So I saw firsthand at the user level all the

01:27:22.970 --> 01:27:25.590
way up to taking down multiple kilos hidden in

01:27:25.590 --> 01:27:28.470
a trunk or a trap of a car. I got to see the

01:27:28.470 --> 01:27:34.130
entire. spectrum of drug use from the end user

01:27:34.130 --> 01:27:38.850
to the seller and the dealer. I think what you're

01:27:38.850 --> 01:27:41.710
asking is, is there a play for government regulation

01:27:41.710 --> 01:27:47.229
into the drug Portugal model, perhaps? I mean,

01:27:47.270 --> 01:27:48.970
I think, yeah, we're looking at it as black and

01:27:48.970 --> 01:27:52.170
white. I mean, a huge irony, for example, is

01:27:52.170 --> 01:27:54.850
that psilocybin and MDMA are hugely effective

01:27:54.850 --> 01:27:57.069
in treating a lot of the mental health challenges

01:27:57.069 --> 01:27:59.510
that our veterans and first responders are suffering

01:27:59.510 --> 01:28:02.829
from. And yet they're both illegal in this country.

01:28:02.970 --> 01:28:05.510
So there's a gray area. And I think my whole

01:28:05.510 --> 01:28:08.829
thing is, you know, arguably what probably, you

01:28:08.829 --> 01:28:11.810
know, Jesus, Buddha, some of these altruistic

01:28:11.810 --> 01:28:14.109
prophets that we all worship would be like, well,

01:28:14.109 --> 01:28:16.430
why don't we get the people that are hurting?

01:28:17.020 --> 01:28:19.399
to stop hurting so they're not leaning into an

01:28:19.399 --> 01:28:22.739
underworld for their fix they're going into where

01:28:22.739 --> 01:28:24.680
the actual treatment is you know and putting

01:28:24.680 --> 01:28:26.260
them back on their feet and getting them to be

01:28:26.260 --> 01:28:29.020
functioning members of society that are healthy

01:28:29.020 --> 01:28:32.199
and happy and paying taxes and working Rather

01:28:32.199 --> 01:28:36.079
than this massive stigma model that we have where

01:28:36.079 --> 01:28:38.739
we arrest addicts or we say, oh, we won't arrest

01:28:38.739 --> 01:28:40.760
them, but we don't put any resources in to actually

01:28:40.760 --> 01:28:43.079
fix them, which is why I think some of these

01:28:43.079 --> 01:28:45.760
failed models in America, oh, we didn't arrest

01:28:45.760 --> 01:28:48.100
addicts up there. Yeah, but what did you do to

01:28:48.100 --> 01:28:50.079
help the people with their mental health challenges?

01:28:50.399 --> 01:28:52.220
That's what Portugal did. That's what Switzerland

01:28:52.220 --> 01:28:54.479
did. That's what some of these areas that have

01:28:54.479 --> 01:28:57.960
done it well is these people are in pain. You

01:28:57.960 --> 01:28:59.720
can't just not arrest them. They're still in

01:28:59.720 --> 01:29:03.260
pain. You have to actually get them into facilities

01:29:03.260 --> 01:29:05.260
that will put them back on their feet and you

01:29:05.260 --> 01:29:07.680
won't get everyone. And this is the point. As

01:29:07.680 --> 01:29:09.760
you said, there are some users that are so far

01:29:09.760 --> 01:29:12.220
gone, tragically, we'll probably never get them

01:29:12.220 --> 01:29:14.600
back. But there's a large portion. And I believe

01:29:14.600 --> 01:29:17.680
if we have an altruistic model on addiction only,

01:29:17.760 --> 01:29:21.199
not smuggling, not dealing, where you can actually

01:29:21.199 --> 01:29:22.979
get them back. And I've had so many people on

01:29:22.979 --> 01:29:25.560
the show that were addicts that are now. doing

01:29:25.560 --> 01:29:27.720
incredible things so i think there's there's

01:29:27.720 --> 01:29:32.600
room for that uh yeah and and i want to make

01:29:32.600 --> 01:29:35.060
sure i got to that after i went through that

01:29:35.060 --> 01:29:39.039
other lineage of my drug experience i think i

01:29:39.039 --> 01:29:41.720
would i would disagree with you james uh respectfully

01:29:41.720 --> 01:29:46.500
is the individuals that i saw i almost want to

01:29:46.500 --> 01:29:51.880
say that they didn't want to be cured they uh

01:29:51.880 --> 01:29:56.159
what those who did go into rehab either withdrew

01:29:56.159 --> 01:30:00.659
intentionally or cheated and failed out of rehab.

01:30:01.699 --> 01:30:06.060
I found that, and I'll just try and keep it simple.

01:30:06.119 --> 01:30:10.260
I found that for those, for the majority of those

01:30:10.260 --> 01:30:14.720
that had a predilection for drug use, they were

01:30:14.720 --> 01:30:16.140
going to have it for the rest of their life.

01:30:17.539 --> 01:30:21.380
And no amount of good intentions was going to

01:30:21.380 --> 01:30:25.750
stop that. i saw that james with my brother so

01:30:25.750 --> 01:30:28.329
my brother died of he drank himself to death

01:30:28.329 --> 01:30:33.090
he died of cirrhosis of the liver and my brother

01:30:33.090 --> 01:30:37.390
tried and to stop and did all the good intention

01:30:37.390 --> 01:30:42.189
things to stop but at the end of the day he was

01:30:42.189 --> 01:30:44.069
an alcoholic and there was nothing he could do

01:30:44.069 --> 01:30:46.649
to resist the urge and it eventually killed him

01:30:47.319 --> 01:30:50.100
The majority of my drug experience says that

01:30:50.100 --> 01:30:53.520
for those that have become addicted to the hard

01:30:53.520 --> 01:30:57.659
drugs, you make an example of MDMA and some other

01:30:57.659 --> 01:31:00.560
psychedelics, but for the hard drugs, the methamphetamine

01:31:00.560 --> 01:31:02.960
and cocaine and heroin, that addiction is going

01:31:02.960 --> 01:31:05.100
to stay with you the rest of your life. And you're

01:31:05.100 --> 01:31:07.220
more likely to fall off the wagon than you are

01:31:07.220 --> 01:31:12.500
to stay on it. And that's just a crude synopsis

01:31:12.500 --> 01:31:15.699
from a guy that just saw it at that level. yeah

01:31:15.699 --> 01:31:17.800
i think you know obviously again there's so much

01:31:17.800 --> 01:31:19.939
value in your perspective and this is why you're

01:31:19.939 --> 01:31:21.779
not even disagreeing with you're talking about

01:31:21.779 --> 01:31:24.460
what you saw through your eyes but listening

01:31:24.460 --> 01:31:28.840
to for example um i i began which is the iboga

01:31:28.840 --> 01:31:30.579
route that a lot of the seals are having a lot

01:31:30.579 --> 01:31:34.399
of success with they are seeing incredible results

01:31:34.399 --> 01:31:37.899
with alcoholism, incredible results with opioid

01:31:37.899 --> 01:31:42.520
addiction. But again, which section are we each

01:31:42.520 --> 01:31:46.220
exposed to? Are you actually seeing a specific

01:31:46.220 --> 01:31:48.680
group that's even more desperate? Because there's

01:31:48.680 --> 01:31:51.260
so many layers to it. You've got the pee beneath

01:31:51.260 --> 01:31:53.020
the mattress, if you like. If you're not getting

01:31:53.020 --> 01:31:55.479
to that, that's the reason why you're drinking,

01:31:55.659 --> 01:31:57.979
why you're using, whatever it is. And will you

01:31:57.979 --> 01:32:00.340
be able to get to it in time? But I think...

01:32:01.160 --> 01:32:03.699
allowing these tools to be used. And like you

01:32:03.699 --> 01:32:06.100
said, I mean, you know, meth, you know, what's

01:32:06.100 --> 01:32:10.100
that horrendous one? Trank. That's very different

01:32:10.100 --> 01:32:12.840
than psilocybin, MDMA, you know, that are being

01:32:12.840 --> 01:32:15.000
used therapeutically. But we've just got them

01:32:15.000 --> 01:32:17.680
all lumped together. Every addict, every compound

01:32:17.680 --> 01:32:20.880
is all in one big pot. And I think there's the

01:32:20.880 --> 01:32:24.100
potential to make it more nuanced and try and

01:32:24.100 --> 01:32:25.939
get some of the people that you can turn around.

01:32:26.100 --> 01:32:28.579
I mean, I've had so many people on here. But

01:32:28.579 --> 01:32:31.039
there will always be that most desperate group

01:32:31.039 --> 01:32:33.920
that no matter what you do, you just cannot get

01:32:33.920 --> 01:32:36.880
them out. And it's like me. I did compressions

01:32:36.880 --> 01:32:40.659
and defibrillated hundreds of people. And I never

01:32:40.659 --> 01:32:43.619
saved a single person in my career in 14 years

01:32:43.619 --> 01:32:45.380
that went into a cardiac arrest. But I was that

01:32:45.380 --> 01:32:48.380
fucking black cloud grim reaper paramedic that

01:32:48.380 --> 01:32:50.899
got all the dead people. But I still believe

01:32:50.899 --> 01:32:53.930
that. one day if I do it with the right person

01:32:53.930 --> 01:32:56.489
we'll get them back so I think just having it

01:32:56.489 --> 01:33:00.670
available you know is is uh you know we you will

01:33:00.670 --> 01:33:02.970
help something you will and if you just start

01:33:02.970 --> 01:33:05.489
moving the needle now you're taking the power

01:33:05.489 --> 01:33:08.430
away from all the people that send drugs into

01:33:08.430 --> 01:33:11.449
this country so I think if we address it on both

01:33:11.449 --> 01:33:14.390
ends yeah go get the cartels they're horrendous

01:33:14.390 --> 01:33:17.300
you know I mean, just psychotic individuals down

01:33:17.300 --> 01:33:19.239
there now, the way they've been groomed. But

01:33:19.239 --> 01:33:22.140
how can we create less addicts here and weaken

01:33:22.140 --> 01:33:25.220
it from that side of the economic spectrum as

01:33:25.220 --> 01:33:29.279
well? Yeah, I certainly don't mean to discredit

01:33:29.279 --> 01:33:32.680
or take the merit away from your argument. I

01:33:32.680 --> 01:33:35.199
just didn't have that positive experience with

01:33:35.199 --> 01:33:38.300
it. A lot of your guests come from a different

01:33:38.300 --> 01:33:42.640
socioeconomic background. They're different personality

01:33:42.640 --> 01:33:46.159
driven. They have other things that motivate

01:33:46.159 --> 01:33:50.720
them in life, which makes them different than

01:33:50.720 --> 01:33:53.760
the average, whatever that is, the average drug

01:33:53.760 --> 01:33:56.600
user in rural America, which is kind of where

01:33:56.600 --> 01:33:58.760
I worked my last 10 years up in North Georgia.

01:33:59.359 --> 01:34:01.520
They don't have those things that I just mentioned.

01:34:01.579 --> 01:34:05.140
They don't have the positive socioeconomic, cultural

01:34:05.140 --> 01:34:09.899
background, education support system that most

01:34:09.899 --> 01:34:15.210
of your guests are having. where the opioids

01:34:15.210 --> 01:34:18.569
really took hold. It's where the voids were from

01:34:18.569 --> 01:34:21.090
industry, West Virginia and the mining, Ohio.

01:34:21.869 --> 01:34:24.869
And so there's so many of these factors. It's

01:34:24.869 --> 01:34:28.210
just, well, how can we extrapolate what has driven

01:34:28.210 --> 01:34:31.210
people in there and how can we help that? Portsmouth,

01:34:31.229 --> 01:34:34.850
Ohio, which was the hub, has now become like

01:34:34.850 --> 01:34:36.949
a hub of recovery. One of my guests was just

01:34:36.949 --> 01:34:39.710
telling me. Detroit, Michigan is starting to

01:34:39.710 --> 01:34:42.100
have a rebirth. So this is a beautiful thing.

01:34:42.140 --> 01:34:44.800
I think we can heal and we can kind of reduce

01:34:44.800 --> 01:34:48.199
this. But depending on the person's lens, like

01:34:48.199 --> 01:34:50.560
you said, if you grew up in, you know, South

01:34:50.560 --> 01:34:52.640
Central L .A. in the 80s, you're going to have

01:34:52.640 --> 01:34:55.560
a very different lens than Ocala, Florida in

01:34:55.560 --> 01:35:00.500
the 80s, for example. Yeah, good point. Well,

01:35:00.600 --> 01:35:03.670
speaking of. crime and gangs i guess that's a

01:35:03.670 --> 01:35:07.189
segue talk to me about the gold club and then

01:35:07.189 --> 01:35:09.869
why was that particular case the one that you

01:35:09.869 --> 01:35:16.829
ended up writing about i'll start with the second

01:35:16.829 --> 01:35:19.289
half first i ended up writing about it because

01:35:19.289 --> 01:35:23.210
uh so many people encouraged me to write about

01:35:23.210 --> 01:35:25.770
it over the years i couldn't write about it until

01:35:25.770 --> 01:35:28.989
i retired and then a couple years after retirement

01:35:28.989 --> 01:35:32.829
i finally got the The motivation COVID had a

01:35:32.829 --> 01:35:34.829
little bit to do with that with free time and

01:35:34.829 --> 01:35:37.930
so forth to finally sit down and write the story

01:35:37.930 --> 01:35:40.770
and write the book. You know, you and I were

01:35:40.770 --> 01:35:43.810
talking about organized crime in Atlanta. And

01:35:43.810 --> 01:35:47.670
when I showed up in 1997, I was assigned to this

01:35:47.670 --> 01:35:50.489
brand new investigation that my training agent

01:35:50.489 --> 01:35:53.529
was working on. And it was a strip club in Atlanta

01:35:53.529 --> 01:35:55.850
called the Gold Club, which was world famous,

01:35:56.010 --> 01:35:58.989
literally and figuratively. And it was owned

01:35:58.989 --> 01:36:02.289
by one of the highest earners. Later, we assessed

01:36:02.289 --> 01:36:04.569
him to be the highest earner as an individual

01:36:04.569 --> 01:36:09.229
in the Gambino crime family. He was a multimillionaire

01:36:09.229 --> 01:36:12.329
through other venues as well, but he was making

01:36:12.329 --> 01:36:14.890
a fortune at the Gold Club as much as $9 million

01:36:14.890 --> 01:36:18.949
a year in 1999 dollars that he was reporting.

01:36:20.729 --> 01:36:25.789
I fall into this investigation and by itself,

01:36:25.949 --> 01:36:29.050
James, you have. organized crime, you have the

01:36:29.050 --> 01:36:31.470
Gambino's, you have John Gotti Jr., you have

01:36:31.470 --> 01:36:33.810
Mikey Scars, Michael D. Leonardo. These are the

01:36:33.810 --> 01:36:36.949
superstars within the Gambino family. You have

01:36:36.949 --> 01:36:39.850
the strip club, you have the sex, drugs, and

01:36:39.850 --> 01:36:43.989
rock and roll. That itself is enough to be for

01:36:43.989 --> 01:36:50.090
a very tantalizing, scintillating case. But then

01:36:50.090 --> 01:36:52.529
we had other factors that jumped into it that

01:36:52.529 --> 01:36:55.670
we didn't know about until we started really

01:36:55.670 --> 01:36:58.670
peeling back the layers of this onion. And that

01:36:58.670 --> 01:37:01.250
was corrupt police officers involved in the case

01:37:01.250 --> 01:37:04.710
for one. And then for two, it was celebrities,

01:37:05.090 --> 01:37:07.390
particularly athletes that were involved in the

01:37:07.390 --> 01:37:10.590
prostitution. The Gold Club was the destination

01:37:10.590 --> 01:37:13.270
place for all major sports teams that rolled

01:37:13.270 --> 01:37:15.390
through Atlanta, either as the visiting team

01:37:15.390 --> 01:37:20.869
or the home team. The game's over, the Atlanta

01:37:20.869 --> 01:37:23.579
Hawks show up at the Gold Club. The game's over,

01:37:23.680 --> 01:37:25.560
the New York Knicks show up at the Gold Club

01:37:25.560 --> 01:37:29.060
and so on and so on and so on. So as we started

01:37:29.060 --> 01:37:31.619
figuring out how is Steve Kaplan, the owner of

01:37:31.619 --> 01:37:35.439
the Gold Club, making so much money at a strip

01:37:35.439 --> 01:37:38.659
club when other people are not making half of

01:37:38.659 --> 01:37:43.899
what he's making? And by the way, he's a mobster,

01:37:43.960 --> 01:37:46.520
so we have to take a look at him because whatever

01:37:46.520 --> 01:37:48.739
that mobster is doing, that's what we're investigating.

01:37:49.020 --> 01:37:50.680
And in this particular case, it happened to be

01:37:50.680 --> 01:37:53.600
a strip club. as my partner used to say if he's

01:37:53.600 --> 01:37:55.399
spitting on the sidewalk james we're going to

01:37:55.399 --> 01:37:57.359
investigate spitting on the sidewalk because

01:37:57.359 --> 01:37:59.479
that's he's a mobster and that's what we do whatever

01:37:59.479 --> 01:38:02.739
he's doing that's what we're investigating and

01:38:02.739 --> 01:38:05.479
so as we got into this case and we found those

01:38:05.479 --> 01:38:08.239
other elements in it then the media picked up

01:38:08.239 --> 01:38:10.880
on it and it became this super sensational case

01:38:10.880 --> 01:38:13.399
of the late 1990s and then when we went to trial

01:38:13.399 --> 01:38:17.859
in 2001 it was this was before the 9 11 attacks

01:38:17.859 --> 01:38:22.829
it was the case it was the true crime case of

01:38:22.829 --> 01:38:28.729
its era cnn was carrying it live as live as you

01:38:28.729 --> 01:38:31.350
can be now remember it's a federal case so one

01:38:31.350 --> 01:38:33.750
of the rules in a federal courtroom is you can't

01:38:33.750 --> 01:38:37.090
bring cameras or recording equipment into a federal

01:38:37.090 --> 01:38:40.510
courthouse you can set up outside in the parking

01:38:40.510 --> 01:38:42.729
lot and on the doorsteps but you can't go into

01:38:42.729 --> 01:38:45.770
the building like you can in a state case so

01:38:45.770 --> 01:38:51.240
this case became as much live as it can be And

01:38:51.240 --> 01:38:53.520
here I am a brand new agent right out of the

01:38:53.520 --> 01:38:56.119
academy and I'm working this. And then I, in

01:38:56.119 --> 01:38:58.420
many ways I become the face of the case. In many

01:38:58.420 --> 01:39:00.680
ways I become the target of the prosecution.

01:39:01.100 --> 01:39:04.939
There's allegations against me. In addition to

01:39:04.939 --> 01:39:06.479
everything else I've already said that makes

01:39:06.479 --> 01:39:08.800
it sensational. So all of this together just

01:39:08.800 --> 01:39:11.260
creates this cauldron of just sensationalism.

01:39:11.960 --> 01:39:15.840
The mob was still a sexy topic. strippers pro

01:39:15.840 --> 01:39:18.960
athletes money millions of dollars corrupt police

01:39:18.960 --> 01:39:22.119
officers you just can't you know you can't make

01:39:22.119 --> 01:39:25.220
it up for a tv documentary and that's what we

01:39:25.220 --> 01:39:27.739
had in this particular case and that's what i

01:39:27.739 --> 01:39:30.720
ended up writing about were the athletes involved

01:39:30.720 --> 01:39:32.819
in the corruption or were they the customers

01:39:32.819 --> 01:39:39.060
of the corruption well the the definition of

01:39:39.060 --> 01:39:42.829
corruption that i will use as an FBI agent is

01:39:42.829 --> 01:39:45.430
you have to be in a position of legal authority

01:39:45.430 --> 01:39:47.630
to be corrupt. So you have to be a police officer

01:39:47.630 --> 01:39:49.930
or a politician or sworn an oath or something

01:39:49.930 --> 01:39:52.170
to that effect. For an athlete to come in and

01:39:52.170 --> 01:39:54.289
engage in prostitution, that's not corruption

01:39:54.289 --> 01:39:57.710
in the legal sense. That's just prostitution,

01:39:57.810 --> 01:40:02.029
frankly. And there's not a quid pro quo. He's

01:40:02.029 --> 01:40:05.029
not trading his badge for anything. He's trading

01:40:05.029 --> 01:40:08.550
money for the services is what he's doing, if

01:40:08.550 --> 01:40:13.640
he's paying at all. And the athletes, yeah, almost

01:40:13.640 --> 01:40:15.779
exclusively it was prostitution. We didn't have

01:40:15.779 --> 01:40:18.640
any drug use. We did investigate some potential

01:40:18.640 --> 01:40:23.220
fixing of games of some of the pro athletes,

01:40:23.420 --> 01:40:26.340
whether the mob was trying to point shave and

01:40:26.340 --> 01:40:28.159
do some things that the mob has historically

01:40:28.159 --> 01:40:32.520
done up in New York. We had a few positive leads

01:40:32.520 --> 01:40:35.960
on that, but eventually they died out. So ultimately.

01:40:36.439 --> 01:40:39.420
The athletes were involved in just the prostitution

01:40:39.420 --> 01:40:42.260
part, to answer your question. Because it's always

01:40:42.260 --> 01:40:44.659
surprising when you hear, you know, these young

01:40:44.659 --> 01:40:48.319
men usually that are making a huge amount of

01:40:48.319 --> 01:40:50.300
money doing the sport that you assume that they

01:40:50.300 --> 01:40:53.300
love, still finding themselves in, you know,

01:40:53.300 --> 01:40:57.199
dealing or gang killings or dog fighting. And

01:40:57.199 --> 01:40:58.600
you're just kind of sitting there going, why?

01:40:59.239 --> 01:41:01.800
Like you literally have everything you need.

01:41:01.859 --> 01:41:03.939
If you just hit the pause button now, your life

01:41:03.939 --> 01:41:05.840
will be good. Just make good investments and

01:41:05.840 --> 01:41:07.779
keep playing your sport so you have to retire.

01:41:08.199 --> 01:41:10.119
But they just, again, we're talking about that

01:41:10.119 --> 01:41:11.920
hook. It seems some of them just get dragged

01:41:11.920 --> 01:41:14.220
back into their underworld, even though they're

01:41:14.220 --> 01:41:20.180
so successful. You're right. Use the term dragged

01:41:20.180 --> 01:41:23.199
back into the underworld. There were plenty of

01:41:23.199 --> 01:41:25.979
professional athletes that come from. that type

01:41:25.979 --> 01:41:28.760
of background but what we also found james was

01:41:28.760 --> 01:41:31.119
there's a lot of athletes that were involved

01:41:31.119 --> 01:41:34.239
that you would have been surprised to hear their

01:41:34.239 --> 01:41:37.340
name and they didn't have that excuse of this

01:41:37.340 --> 01:41:40.640
is where i came from or this is what i know or

01:41:40.640 --> 01:41:42.960
i was you know working in a strip club when i

01:41:42.960 --> 01:41:46.079
was 17 as a dj that's not they couldn't fall

01:41:46.079 --> 01:41:49.619
back on that they had nothing in the lines of

01:41:49.619 --> 01:41:52.859
those excuses other than they were just there

01:41:52.859 --> 01:41:57.560
for the sex Interesting. All right. Well, then

01:41:57.560 --> 01:42:00.859
you touched on this as well, whether it was that

01:42:00.859 --> 01:42:03.279
case or we've been, you know, all over the place,

01:42:03.300 --> 01:42:05.479
Afghanistan and working, you know, with these

01:42:05.479 --> 01:42:07.760
desperate populations. I mean, for example, the

01:42:07.760 --> 01:42:11.800
sex traffic women. We hit on, you know, some

01:42:11.800 --> 01:42:14.180
of the trauma that you've been exposed to when

01:42:14.180 --> 01:42:15.800
you were young and obviously that your father

01:42:15.800 --> 01:42:18.779
had been exposed to. Did you have any lows yourself

01:42:18.779 --> 01:42:26.590
as you progress through your career? Yeah, good

01:42:26.590 --> 01:42:30.590
question. That case, the Gold Club case, had

01:42:30.590 --> 01:42:35.649
very high peaks and very low valleys. So if you

01:42:35.649 --> 01:42:38.630
were to watch an episode of Law & Order, for

01:42:38.630 --> 01:42:42.090
example, which is the old Law & Order, NYPD Law

01:42:42.090 --> 01:42:45.689
& Order, or Hill Street Blues, or NYPD Blues,

01:42:45.789 --> 01:42:48.949
those are my favorite shows, the old ones. And

01:42:48.949 --> 01:42:53.470
the bad guy was always Internal Affairs, right?

01:42:54.239 --> 01:42:56.840
so if internal affairs you probably know this

01:42:56.840 --> 01:42:59.159
from being in the fire department as well there's

01:42:59.159 --> 01:43:01.739
some type of supervising government agency within

01:43:01.739 --> 01:43:03.640
the bureaucracy to make sure you're following

01:43:03.640 --> 01:43:06.199
all the rules and you know not taking equipment

01:43:06.199 --> 01:43:09.880
home and you know not cheating on your your emt

01:43:09.880 --> 01:43:12.119
exam or whatever it might be there's always this

01:43:12.119 --> 01:43:15.939
watchdog well in the fbi we don't use the term

01:43:15.939 --> 01:43:20.300
internal affairs we use the term office of professional

01:43:20.300 --> 01:43:25.229
responsibility or opr But they are the internal

01:43:25.229 --> 01:43:29.430
affairs of the FBI. And they handle everything

01:43:29.430 --> 01:43:36.810
from simple mistakes to pretty egregious mistakes,

01:43:37.149 --> 01:43:41.729
quite frankly. And the defense in this case,

01:43:41.750 --> 01:43:45.590
part of their defense strategy was to make me

01:43:45.590 --> 01:43:47.810
the target of the investigation and claim that

01:43:47.810 --> 01:43:50.090
I was sleeping with some of the female employees

01:43:50.090 --> 01:43:53.359
of the club. And that's how I was earning and

01:43:53.359 --> 01:43:56.100
gaining their testimony and so forth. Because

01:43:56.100 --> 01:43:58.300
a lot of these girls were just fantastic killer

01:43:58.300 --> 01:44:02.260
witnesses. They just crushed these guys at trial.

01:44:02.659 --> 01:44:05.800
And in an effort to take away from the impact

01:44:05.800 --> 01:44:08.340
of these witnesses, whether it be credit card

01:44:08.340 --> 01:44:12.279
fraud or public corruption or prostitution or

01:44:12.279 --> 01:44:14.180
loan sharking, the things that they had witnessed

01:44:14.180 --> 01:44:18.340
in these strip clubs. They decided to go after

01:44:18.340 --> 01:44:21.180
me because I had most of the contact with these

01:44:21.180 --> 01:44:24.680
girls from a professional perspective to get

01:44:24.680 --> 01:44:28.539
them to the witness stand. And I ended up getting

01:44:28.539 --> 01:44:32.560
two internal affairs investigations, OPR investigations

01:44:32.560 --> 01:44:36.640
because of the allegations. So I'm married with

01:44:36.640 --> 01:44:39.890
young children. So on and now the internet is

01:44:39.890 --> 01:44:42.130
a new thing and all of those things still exist

01:44:42.130 --> 01:44:44.409
today, these allegations and so forth. So that

01:44:44.409 --> 01:44:46.909
was a low spot to be able to have to deal with

01:44:46.909 --> 01:44:49.829
that. The defense knew what they were doing.

01:44:51.250 --> 01:44:54.850
And I'm convinced 99 % of them realized that

01:44:54.850 --> 01:44:57.149
there was nothing to it, but we're gonna make

01:44:57.149 --> 01:44:59.609
the allegation because if we make the allegation,

01:44:59.750 --> 01:45:03.310
one juror might believe it. And if one juror

01:45:03.310 --> 01:45:05.250
believes it, then we might get an acquittal.

01:45:05.840 --> 01:45:10.119
So it was worth the gamble. You know, be damned

01:45:10.119 --> 01:45:14.039
with the damage that it might do to the agent

01:45:14.039 --> 01:45:16.380
that we're making the allegation against. So

01:45:16.380 --> 01:45:19.960
definitely a low spot there. I can go anywhere

01:45:19.960 --> 01:45:23.239
in the FBI community, even to today, and I can

01:45:23.239 --> 01:45:27.960
mention the Gold Club and do a series of just

01:45:27.960 --> 01:45:30.399
quick conversations. They'll realize, oh, so

01:45:30.399 --> 01:45:32.319
you're the agent they claim was sleeping with

01:45:32.319 --> 01:45:35.939
the girls. So here it is 30 years later. After

01:45:35.939 --> 01:45:41.319
I retired, James, I applied to work for a couple

01:45:41.319 --> 01:45:46.039
of faith -based Christian units to do some security

01:45:46.039 --> 01:45:49.279
work for them as they went around the world doing

01:45:49.279 --> 01:45:53.500
charitable work, whether it be relief funding

01:45:53.500 --> 01:45:58.140
in hurricane places or famine in Africa and so

01:45:58.140 --> 01:46:01.439
forth. These are multi -million dollar organizations

01:46:01.439 --> 01:46:04.300
that you would see. advertising on television

01:46:04.300 --> 01:46:07.539
for and so forth. And they were hiring retired

01:46:07.539 --> 01:46:11.199
law enforcement, retired law enforcement of all

01:46:11.199 --> 01:46:13.340
types, federal and state to work for them. And

01:46:13.340 --> 01:46:17.119
I applied and went through a series of interviews

01:46:17.119 --> 01:46:19.159
all the way up to interviewing with the CEOs

01:46:19.159 --> 01:46:22.500
of the corporations and etc. And this was 20

01:46:22.500 --> 01:46:25.859
years after this case. And I was asked questions

01:46:25.859 --> 01:46:28.739
about this case during my job interview 20 years

01:46:28.739 --> 01:46:31.989
later. and ultimately the decision was made not

01:46:31.989 --> 01:46:36.850
to hire me for these organizations and the answer

01:46:36.850 --> 01:46:38.989
was you know we just think we found a better

01:46:38.989 --> 01:46:41.930
candidate but i'll always believe in the back

01:46:41.930 --> 01:46:44.329
of my mind that they didn't want to take a chance

01:46:44.329 --> 01:46:46.569
on the guy that there had been an allegation

01:46:46.569 --> 01:46:49.890
against based on what the defense had said so

01:46:49.890 --> 01:46:53.090
look it's all worked out in in in the end and

01:46:53.090 --> 01:46:55.750
i've landed in great places and i've been super

01:46:55.750 --> 01:46:59.529
successful and my fbi career but you ask about

01:46:59.529 --> 01:47:03.489
a low spot that was a low one and it comes and

01:47:03.489 --> 01:47:06.609
goes over time believe it or not what do you

01:47:06.609 --> 01:47:10.289
lean into to create that that upward trajectory

01:47:10.289 --> 01:47:12.329
again what are your kind of positive healing

01:47:12.329 --> 01:47:17.770
modalities well first i'll go with my christian

01:47:17.770 --> 01:47:21.729
faith two i will go with stay busy stay working

01:47:21.729 --> 01:47:25.779
stay um doing positive things whether it's writing

01:47:25.779 --> 01:47:28.300
an additional book whether it's continuing to

01:47:28.300 --> 01:47:31.600
work in the fbi community i'm not completely

01:47:31.600 --> 01:47:35.159
retired i'm still training i'm still a contract

01:47:35.159 --> 01:47:37.439
employee with law enforcement agencies with the

01:47:37.439 --> 01:47:40.460
fbi with some overseas units and so forth so

01:47:40.460 --> 01:47:44.159
i look forward to those opportunities so making

01:47:44.159 --> 01:47:46.840
a difference there is a way to you know channel

01:47:46.840 --> 01:47:49.159
energy and and know that you're still making

01:47:49.159 --> 01:47:52.890
an impact at the end of the day i see that happen

01:47:52.890 --> 01:47:54.989
a lot when people transition out the military

01:47:54.989 --> 01:47:57.149
or first responders especially if they end up

01:47:57.149 --> 01:48:00.630
going into finance or real estate or something

01:48:00.630 --> 01:48:04.649
because you've got that purpose that was so powerful

01:48:04.649 --> 01:48:06.489
when you're wearing a uniform and there's so

01:48:06.489 --> 01:48:08.750
many other ways to stay on that same mission

01:48:08.750 --> 01:48:10.510
and whether it's you know educating the next

01:48:10.510 --> 01:48:12.750
generation whether it's protecting a non -profit

01:48:12.750 --> 01:48:15.649
that's doing incredible work but i think understanding

01:48:15.649 --> 01:48:18.010
that you are that kind of person that's a beautiful

01:48:18.010 --> 01:48:21.560
thing And that need to really serve in another

01:48:21.560 --> 01:48:24.920
capacity is going to give you probably the healthiest

01:48:24.920 --> 01:48:29.979
transition out. Yeah, it's tough. It's tough

01:48:29.979 --> 01:48:32.859
to change gears completely. I've seen guys do

01:48:32.859 --> 01:48:38.800
it, go from one job genre to another and have

01:48:38.800 --> 01:48:41.119
liked it and enjoyed it and been successful.

01:48:41.979 --> 01:48:45.399
I'm not one of those people. So I've stayed in

01:48:45.399 --> 01:48:48.800
the same theme in my career. Yeah. So it's good

01:48:48.800 --> 01:48:51.340
to have that. Yeah, it's good to have that impact

01:48:51.340 --> 01:48:54.359
and be able to still contribute. 100%. All right.

01:48:54.359 --> 01:48:56.399
Well, for people listening, give us the full

01:48:56.399 --> 01:48:58.060
name because I wrote The Gold Club and I know

01:48:58.060 --> 01:49:00.020
it's a much longer title. So give us the full

01:49:00.020 --> 01:49:01.880
name of the book and then where people can find

01:49:01.880 --> 01:49:07.300
it. Yeah, the publisher came up with a long name.

01:49:07.340 --> 01:49:09.699
It's called Investigating America's Most Notorious

01:49:09.699 --> 01:49:13.600
Strip Club, the FBI, the Mafia and the Gold Club.

01:49:14.000 --> 01:49:16.619
And you can find it on Amazon, Walmart, any of

01:49:16.619 --> 01:49:19.500
the major. book outlets it's published by roman

01:49:19.500 --> 01:49:22.239
and littlefield brilliant well the first of the

01:49:22.239 --> 01:49:24.239
closing questions i'd love to ask that's your

01:49:24.239 --> 01:49:28.060
book is there a book that you recommend um you

01:49:28.060 --> 01:49:30.180
know written by someone else it can be related

01:49:30.180 --> 01:49:32.579
to our discussion today or completely unrelated

01:49:32.579 --> 01:49:39.680
yeah i'm a reader james so i could shoot i could

01:49:39.680 --> 01:49:42.079
take the next 15 minutes and bore you with with

01:49:42.079 --> 01:49:43.840
books i'll tell you what i'm reading right now

01:49:43.840 --> 01:49:47.359
that i know that i would recommend is uh Endurance,

01:49:47.439 --> 01:49:51.920
the Shackleford expedition that went across the

01:49:51.920 --> 01:49:57.659
Antarctic in 1910 -ish, I believe it was. And

01:49:57.659 --> 01:50:01.520
it's a great book on leadership. Those guys had

01:50:01.520 --> 01:50:06.079
to get out on foot, abandon ship, and walk across

01:50:06.079 --> 01:50:08.939
the Antarctic. And Shackleford did not lose one

01:50:08.939 --> 01:50:11.899
man. And he didn't lose him because he had SEAL

01:50:11.899 --> 01:50:15.560
Team 6 under his command. He didn't lose them

01:50:15.560 --> 01:50:17.760
because he was a leader and he took care of his

01:50:17.760 --> 01:50:20.600
men and so forth. So from a leadership perspective,

01:50:20.979 --> 01:50:26.279
that's a great one. In the health and fitness

01:50:26.279 --> 01:50:28.920
community, where I'm kind of a nerd as well,

01:50:29.079 --> 01:50:32.600
probably one of the best books that I tell people

01:50:32.600 --> 01:50:34.880
to read when we have these type of conversations

01:50:34.880 --> 01:50:38.239
about fitness and diet is it starts with food.

01:50:39.140 --> 01:50:43.739
And you've got to get a concept around your diet.

01:50:44.300 --> 01:50:46.380
and how it's gonna affect everything about you

01:50:46.380 --> 01:50:50.399
physically. And we have so many misconceptions.

01:50:50.859 --> 01:50:53.359
We were talking about earlier about how lobbyists

01:50:53.359 --> 01:50:56.279
influence laws and etc. Well, those same type

01:50:56.279 --> 01:50:59.420
of influences are in our diet and our food and

01:50:59.420 --> 01:51:03.279
our supermarkets and everything else. And so

01:51:03.279 --> 01:51:07.460
once we, I'm really excited and my daughter is

01:51:07.460 --> 01:51:10.520
super excited about. rfk jr and what he might

01:51:10.520 --> 01:51:12.699
be able to accomplish with this make america

01:51:12.699 --> 01:51:16.520
healthy again and so forth but that book it starts

01:51:16.520 --> 01:51:20.039
with food was a real eye -opener for me rfk is

01:51:20.039 --> 01:51:21.899
supposed to be coming on the show i've got to

01:51:21.899 --> 01:51:24.279
kind of circle around post -election but i'm

01:51:24.279 --> 01:51:26.279
hoping i get to talk to him about that because

01:51:26.279 --> 01:51:28.659
it's the first time in 22 years in living in

01:51:28.659 --> 01:51:30.479
the states i've ever heard anyone actually address

01:51:30.479 --> 01:51:34.329
the obesity epidemic You're absolutely right.

01:51:35.130 --> 01:51:38.710
So congratulations on that. I hope it comes through.

01:51:38.750 --> 01:51:41.369
I'll be one of the first guys to listen. So we're

01:51:41.369 --> 01:51:43.750
putting it on you for a second. You're king for

01:51:43.750 --> 01:51:47.050
a day. What do we need to change to reverse this

01:51:47.050 --> 01:51:50.970
health crisis that we're in at the moment? Take

01:51:50.970 --> 01:51:53.310
the corporate money out of the government regulations.

01:51:54.489 --> 01:51:58.109
When I was growing up in the 70s, James, and

01:51:58.109 --> 01:52:00.649
you can still find this on YouTube. there was

01:52:00.649 --> 01:52:04.590
a commercial on television that said fruity pebbles

01:52:04.590 --> 01:52:10.250
was part of a balanced breakfast okay and they

01:52:10.250 --> 01:52:12.130
had some type of little government seal down

01:52:12.130 --> 01:52:14.310
at the bottom of the tv screen that showed that

01:52:14.310 --> 01:52:19.850
this was fda endorsed and etc so when um when

01:52:19.850 --> 01:52:23.810
coca -cola and general meals you know was funding

01:52:23.810 --> 01:52:28.640
50 of the the research How can they not influence

01:52:28.640 --> 01:52:31.699
the final outcome? And it, you know, look and

01:52:31.699 --> 01:52:34.600
Coca -Cola, I probably do my mutual fund. I probably

01:52:34.600 --> 01:52:37.880
have shares in Coca -Cola, you know, in general

01:52:37.880 --> 01:52:41.539
meals. So those companies are there to make a

01:52:41.539 --> 01:52:44.560
profit and we all benefit those who invest in

01:52:44.560 --> 01:52:47.220
those companies, whether consciously or unconsciously.

01:52:47.340 --> 01:52:52.220
So it's, it's, it's, it's a mixed bag. Sometimes

01:52:52.220 --> 01:52:56.270
it's easy to. to go on an interview podcast and

01:52:56.270 --> 01:52:59.850
say that corporate america is the bad guy when

01:52:59.850 --> 01:53:02.989
it comes to the health industry and yet be a

01:53:02.989 --> 01:53:06.350
hypocrite when i've got coca -cola stock right

01:53:06.350 --> 01:53:11.310
and so forth but the short simple answer to your

01:53:11.310 --> 01:53:14.090
question is you got to get those those corporations

01:53:14.090 --> 01:53:16.710
have to get out of government funding and government

01:53:16.710 --> 01:53:22.329
research it was so heartbreaking during and especially

01:53:22.329 --> 01:53:26.229
after covid when we had this captive audience

01:53:26.229 --> 01:53:30.170
for arguably a year and a half two years and

01:53:30.170 --> 01:53:32.350
there's this whole conversation about health

01:53:32.350 --> 01:53:34.390
and we're like okay finally we're gonna get you

01:53:34.390 --> 01:53:36.109
know real food back in schools we're gonna put

01:53:36.109 --> 01:53:39.130
pe programs back we're gonna support local farmers

01:53:39.130 --> 01:53:41.630
to grow organic vegetables and you know livestock

01:53:41.630 --> 01:53:45.109
and and nothing happened and that's when it showed

01:53:45.109 --> 01:53:46.829
you that it was never about the health of the

01:53:46.829 --> 01:53:50.520
people I really feel like we're at the beginning

01:53:50.520 --> 01:53:52.479
of an awakening now because I think that's all

01:53:52.479 --> 01:53:55.359
just starting to sink in. They told us it was

01:53:55.359 --> 01:53:57.859
about health, but they did nothing to actually

01:53:57.859 --> 01:54:00.439
improve the health of the American people. That

01:54:00.439 --> 01:54:03.020
doesn't add up at all. But they sold a lot of

01:54:03.020 --> 01:54:05.939
drugs over that time, and they continue to sell

01:54:05.939 --> 01:54:08.600
cereals and all these things that we just discussed.

01:54:08.859 --> 01:54:11.420
So going back into that propaganda that we were

01:54:11.420 --> 01:54:14.600
talking about earlier, the push is what we need.

01:54:14.659 --> 01:54:17.439
We need the regular people to say, Why are our

01:54:17.439 --> 01:54:20.159
children being exposed to processed food? The

01:54:20.159 --> 01:54:22.460
soda machines in the school and their PE programs

01:54:22.460 --> 01:54:24.699
have been cut and we're seeing them get fatter

01:54:24.699 --> 01:54:27.340
and sicker and getting type 2 diabetes at an

01:54:27.340 --> 01:54:31.060
unheard of early age. You know, we as a nation

01:54:31.060 --> 01:54:33.479
need to push back and demand that it's changed

01:54:33.479 --> 01:54:35.819
because, I mean, I agree, I don't have any stock,

01:54:35.859 --> 01:54:37.439
so I'll say it. Yeah, I mean, these companies

01:54:37.439 --> 01:54:39.300
and their lobbyists are literally responsible

01:54:39.300 --> 01:54:43.720
for millions of American lives through the drugs,

01:54:43.920 --> 01:54:49.640
the food and the tobacco. Yeah, you said I could

01:54:49.640 --> 01:54:51.960
add to that, but there's really no need to because

01:54:51.960 --> 01:54:55.279
everything you said, I agree with. All right.

01:54:55.279 --> 01:54:57.039
Well, let me move to the next question. Then

01:54:57.039 --> 01:54:59.739
we talked about books. What about films and documentaries?

01:55:03.199 --> 01:55:08.979
Wow. Films and documentaries. You know, go back

01:55:08.979 --> 01:55:16.180
to the food again. Netflix did a series of documentaries.

01:55:17.079 --> 01:55:21.680
within the last five plus years about diets and

01:55:21.680 --> 01:55:26.399
like fork over knives and it starts with food

01:55:26.399 --> 01:55:29.960
and things of that nature now whether you agree

01:55:29.960 --> 01:55:34.420
that you know the that meat is bad or you need

01:55:34.420 --> 01:55:36.420
to be on the mediterranean diet or you need to

01:55:36.420 --> 01:55:40.939
be on the carnivore diet and etc that's not ultimately

01:55:40.939 --> 01:55:42.779
i think the most important thing the most important

01:55:42.779 --> 01:55:45.119
thing is to have the conversation and then figure

01:55:45.119 --> 01:55:48.739
out what works for you because quite frankly

01:55:48.739 --> 01:55:50.420
not many people are having that conversation

01:55:50.420 --> 01:55:52.279
they're having they're on the processed food

01:55:52.279 --> 01:55:56.159
diet right so those documentaries on that netflix

01:55:56.159 --> 01:55:58.500
was running and and so forth they talked about

01:55:58.500 --> 01:56:02.359
these different diets um one being the blue zones

01:56:02.359 --> 01:56:04.319
i don't know if you've seen that i saw that one

01:56:04.319 --> 01:56:08.329
actually i have the cookbook Yeah, just those

01:56:08.329 --> 01:56:12.090
in general have been real eye openers about getting

01:56:12.090 --> 01:56:14.989
the word out and doing it where it makes an impact.

01:56:15.930 --> 01:56:18.989
I had James Wilkes on quite a long time ago,

01:56:19.090 --> 01:56:23.529
MMA fighter, but vegan. And they made the great

01:56:23.529 --> 01:56:25.270
the game changers. And if you ever saw that,

01:56:25.310 --> 01:56:27.430
and it was the old vegan athletes that were featured.

01:56:28.850 --> 01:56:31.779
He was on. I have seen it. I think it was Chris

01:56:31.779 --> 01:56:34.039
Kresser, I think is his name, was on Joe Rogan.

01:56:34.039 --> 01:56:35.859
They tore the film apart. And then James actually

01:56:35.859 --> 01:56:38.020
went on. I'd already recorded with him, but he

01:56:38.020 --> 01:56:40.220
asked me to hold off and not give them any ammunition.

01:56:40.760 --> 01:56:43.220
So he goes back on. So collectively that's six

01:56:43.220 --> 01:56:46.180
hours of them going back and forth about, you

01:56:46.180 --> 01:56:48.840
know, who's the best. And it's so sad because

01:56:48.840 --> 01:56:50.600
it alludes to what you're saying. The middle.

01:56:51.320 --> 01:56:53.319
ground that actually really makes a difference

01:56:53.319 --> 01:56:55.220
is that you remove the processed food from your

01:56:55.220 --> 01:56:57.460
diet. If you want to be a vegan, be a vegan.

01:56:57.560 --> 01:56:59.279
If you want to do carnival, do carnival. But

01:56:59.279 --> 01:57:01.699
each of those, you're not having rice krispies

01:57:01.699 --> 01:57:04.380
and, you know, bonbons. You're taking that all

01:57:04.380 --> 01:57:07.560
out. So if they took the energy that they spend

01:57:07.560 --> 01:57:09.880
arguing with each other about who's got the best

01:57:09.880 --> 01:57:12.699
food, you know, diet and actually say, hey, we

01:57:12.699 --> 01:57:16.079
all seem to agree on this area here. That's where

01:57:16.079 --> 01:57:17.760
the truth is, because, I mean, you can get an

01:57:17.760 --> 01:57:21.000
Inuit, an Eskimo. and someone from you know aboriginal

01:57:21.000 --> 01:57:24.319
australia they don't eat the same so the world

01:57:24.319 --> 01:57:27.000
does not eat the exact same food so what are

01:57:27.000 --> 01:57:29.140
the things that we've put into our diet globally

01:57:29.140 --> 01:57:31.800
that are causing this obesity and again it goes

01:57:31.800 --> 01:57:37.520
back to the the factory foods you made the analogy

01:57:37.520 --> 01:57:41.239
20 minutes ago about the the drug problem that

01:57:41.239 --> 01:57:43.399
we have in america with and you use that portuguese

01:57:43.399 --> 01:57:46.119
example and how do we tackle the drug problem

01:57:46.119 --> 01:57:49.699
and etc uh i would make the argument and say

01:57:49.699 --> 01:57:51.859
it's parallel that we have the same drug problem

01:57:51.859 --> 01:57:54.899
in the food business you know we're addicted

01:57:54.899 --> 01:57:59.460
to foods that taste good that kill us okay how's

01:57:59.460 --> 01:58:02.239
that any different than we're addicted to drugs

01:58:02.239 --> 01:58:07.020
that make us feel good and kill us it's the same

01:58:07.020 --> 01:58:11.260
one's legal one's illegal but the results and

01:58:11.260 --> 01:58:13.680
the methodology is the same it makes you feel

01:58:13.680 --> 01:58:17.659
good and then it kills you And now, granted,

01:58:18.079 --> 01:58:20.680
your heroin overdose can kill you instantly.

01:58:20.840 --> 01:58:23.600
The Rice Krispie overdose will maybe take 10

01:58:23.600 --> 01:58:26.899
years, but the end result's the same. And oh,

01:58:26.920 --> 01:58:29.699
by the way, in that 10 years that you get to

01:58:29.699 --> 01:58:33.260
your point of finally dying, someone's going

01:58:33.260 --> 01:58:35.079
to benefit from all the medicines that they're

01:58:35.079 --> 01:58:37.380
giving you for those 10 years to combat your

01:58:37.380 --> 01:58:39.500
type 2 diabetes and your high blood pressure

01:58:39.500 --> 01:58:43.489
and et cetera. um there's a parallel in my mind

01:58:43.489 --> 01:58:46.449
between the war on drugs and all those things

01:58:46.449 --> 01:58:49.270
that we talked about earlier and we need to have

01:58:49.270 --> 01:58:53.649
a war on food as well yeah i agree 100 well the

01:58:53.649 --> 01:58:55.930
next question is there a person that you'd recommend

01:58:55.930 --> 01:58:58.989
to come on this podcast as a guest to speak to

01:58:58.989 --> 01:59:01.029
the first responders military and associated

01:59:01.029 --> 01:59:05.689
professions of the world yeah i could give you

01:59:05.689 --> 01:59:09.010
um I could give you quite a few in my opinion,

01:59:09.130 --> 01:59:12.529
but the one that comes to mind is my old roommate

01:59:12.529 --> 01:59:15.409
and a Citadel classmate of mine. His name is

01:59:15.409 --> 01:59:19.010
Neil Shuley. Neil is a retired colonel in the

01:59:19.010 --> 01:59:22.470
Marine Corps, still doing some contract work

01:59:22.470 --> 01:59:25.170
for the government, was instrumental in starting

01:59:25.170 --> 01:59:28.789
the MARSOC within the Marine Corps, was an old

01:59:28.789 --> 01:59:32.619
force recon guy back in the days. one of the

01:59:32.619 --> 01:59:34.840
first, if not the first Marine in Afghanistan

01:59:34.840 --> 01:59:38.079
right after 9 -11. It's got some great stories

01:59:38.079 --> 01:59:41.399
to tell, but directly related to your topics

01:59:41.399 --> 01:59:44.220
that you'd like to focus in on. Beautiful. Well,

01:59:44.279 --> 01:59:45.520
I would love to get him on if you're able to

01:59:45.520 --> 01:59:49.159
help make that connection. I can. Thank you so

01:59:49.159 --> 01:59:51.760
much. All right. Well, then the very last question,

01:59:51.939 --> 01:59:54.739
we talked about where to find the book. If people

01:59:54.739 --> 01:59:56.760
want to reach out to you, learn more about you,

01:59:56.800 --> 01:59:59.079
where are the best places online or social media?

02:00:01.520 --> 02:00:03.699
Yeah, I'm not much of a social media guy, James.

02:00:03.779 --> 02:00:07.060
I do have a website for my book. It's i68books

02:00:07.060 --> 02:00:13.439
.com. I as in Isaiah, 68books .com. And then

02:00:13.439 --> 02:00:18.380
my email address is mark at i68books .com. So

02:00:18.380 --> 02:00:23.180
that's the two best ways to reach me. I don't

02:00:23.180 --> 02:00:26.140
do a lot. I don't have an Instagram account anymore,

02:00:26.260 --> 02:00:28.739
and I just have a family Facebook page. Okay,

02:00:28.819 --> 02:00:32.260
but you're on LinkedIn. That is correct. Thank

02:00:32.260 --> 02:00:34.380
you for reminding me. You can certainly find

02:00:34.380 --> 02:00:36.560
me. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. You can certainly

02:00:36.560 --> 02:00:38.880
find me on LinkedIn. All right. Brilliant. Well,

02:00:39.000 --> 02:00:41.119
I want to thank you so much. Like every single

02:00:41.119 --> 02:00:43.600
time I speak to someone on here, you know, they

02:00:43.600 --> 02:00:46.140
are known for X, Y, and Z, but these conversations

02:00:46.140 --> 02:00:48.359
go in so many different places and it's been

02:00:48.359 --> 02:00:51.479
such a unique and, you know, valuable perspective

02:00:51.479 --> 02:00:54.239
to hear your story. So I want to thank you so

02:00:54.239 --> 02:00:56.220
much for being so generous with your time and

02:00:56.220 --> 02:00:58.039
coming on the behind the shield podcast today.

02:00:59.680 --> 02:01:02.279
Well, you're doing a great job yourself. So thank

02:01:02.279 --> 02:01:04.119
you for having me and thank you for what you're

02:01:04.119 --> 02:01:04.319
doing.