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don't qualify, there is still the 10 % off using

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the code BTN. Welcome to the Behind the Shield

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podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing,

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and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome

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on the show veteran firefighter and the man behind

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firehouse vigilance, Corley Moore. So in this

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conversation, we discuss a host of topics from

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his journey into the fire service, leadership,

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fitness standards, mental health, his podcast,

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The Weekly Scrap, The Book of Search, firefighter

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marriage, and so much more. Now, before we get

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to this incredible conversation, as I say every

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week, please just take a moment, go to whichever

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app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show.

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Leave feedback and leave a rating. Every single

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five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,

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therefore making it easier for others to find.

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And this is a free library of well over 1 ,000

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episodes now. So all I ask in return is that

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you help share these incredible men and women's

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stories so I can get them to every single person

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on planet Earth who needs to hear them. So with

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that being said, I introduce to you... Corley

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Moore. Enjoy. Well, Corley, I want to start by

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saying two things. Firstly, thank you for having

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me on your show, The Weekly Scrap. I think it

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was a couple weeks ago now, if that. Amazing

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conversation. And secondly, I'm glad I get to

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turn the microphone on you now and welcome you

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onto the Behind the Shield podcast. Hi, brother.

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I'm excited to be here. We had a great conversation

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when you came on, and your mission is amazing.

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Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, blown away. Go ahead.

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So where on planet Earth are we finding you this

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afternoon? I am home in Oklahoma, right outside

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of Oklahoma City. Smack dab in the middle, the

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heartland. Beautiful. Well, I would have to start

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at the very beginning of your early life because

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I know you've got an interesting upbringing.

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Tell me where you were born and tell me a little

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bit about your family dynamic, what your parents

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did, how many siblings. I was born in Farmington,

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New Mexico. which is the northwestern corner

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of New Mexico. It's the Four Corners area where

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you can stand in four states at once. That's

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where I was born, but I was raised in Oklahoma,

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Oklahoma City, Southside. And that's, like you

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said, a very interesting childhood. My father

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is probably the most influential person on my

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life. I guess that's kind of an understatement,

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you know, if you had a father involved in your

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life. He was a very unique individual. I know

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that I get some of my wanderlust from his influence

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on my life. When I was born, two years old, he

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was a missionary to Australia. So my first year

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of life was in Australia. I don't remember any

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of it. I've got pictures of me. you know, at,

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at a Australia petty zoo wrestling, like a baby

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kangaroo type thing, but I have no memory of

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it, but two years or the first year of my life

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was in Australia. And then he came back here.

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He was a U S he got involved in politics. He

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was a state Senator in Oklahoma. He built a 40

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foot boat that was, that is now doing missionary

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work in, uh, the Caribbean, not the Caribbean.

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Yeah. Yeah. Down in the Caribbean seas there.

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The anyway, uh, There is so much that he has

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done that's just, he's a dreamer that chased

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dreams, and that's kind of had a lot of big influence

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on me. When you, if you had the opportunity,

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explore the upbringing that he had, what was

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it about his childhood that gave him such wonderlust

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and innovation? Ooh, that's a great question.

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I don't know if I've ever dug in to figure out

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why he was wired the way he was. Because like

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many, many young men, I went through a phase

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where I resented him and said, I will not do

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the things that he did. And then as you grow

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and mature, you realize you grow and gain a respect

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for what he instilled in you and things like

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that. But I don't know if I've ever actually

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won. Because I know he was raised, he's very

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open. He was raised by a single mom. He did not

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know his father. And I don't know what the influences

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were. That's a great question. And make me get

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a little introspective. I may have to look into

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that. Good, good. I like supplying some of these

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seeds. It's interesting when you hear a lot of

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people that have had, you know, whatever that

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struggle looks like early in life. And, you know,

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they're at that kind of crossroads. They could

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have gone, you know, wayward or they could have

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gone down a good path. More often than not, there

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are mentors. So it'd be interesting to see kind

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of who the figures were. you know, that were

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filling in that void of the father figure that

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maybe steered him in that good direction? No

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doubt. That is a great question. So what about

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your mom? What was she doing profession -wise?

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Professionally -wise, she was a professional

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mother. Like she raised us. I had five siblings.

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And so she had her hands full without a doubt.

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And between my dad traveled a lot with the family.

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So it wasn't like he went and traveled and we

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stayed home. We traveled a lot. A lot of my very

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young years was my father would preach at a different

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church every Sunday. So he would pull a travel

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trailer. We would preach on Sunday morning. Travel

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to another church, you know, two hours away,

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preach that Sunday night, travel to another church

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over the next couple of days. I've been to 40,

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I want to say 48 states of the union and in a

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travel trailer with my family, you know, in my

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young formative years. And so it was a very unique

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upbringing. And my mom was the rock that kept

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us all, you know, she raised six very, what do

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you want to call it? Contributing members of

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society. Pretty good track record. I'm one of

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five, so I can relate to that. We were already

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feral farm kids, but we all turned out okay,

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I think. Right. That's a great description. So,

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well, with that, one of the quotes that I always

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butcher, but I think it's John Steinbeck, and

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it's something like the enemy of prejudice is

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traveling. With you having this diverse lens,

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not only within the US, but even though you might

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not remember Australia being raised by parents

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that were travelers. How has that changed your

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perception on the States or even the world? Man,

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I always have taken it for granted. You know,

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these are great introspective, getting deep into

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it. I've always just taken it for granted that

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I understood the different regions and that there's

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silos that exist and there's... tribalism and,

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and, you know, and I've always kind of, I guess

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I kind of took it for granted that I just understood

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that those existed. Cause I kind of just crossed

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those boundaries a lot younger. Did that carry

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over into the fire service? The reason I asked

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that my career started, well trained in Orlando

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first was Hialeah by Miami, then Anaheim, California,

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then orange County, Florida, and then a Reedy

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Creek, one of the text Disney world. And so I

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had East coast, West coast. I had, you know,

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quite affluent quite poor i had arguably one

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of the best fire departments one of the worst

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i'll let everyone figure out which is which um

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but it really gave me this kind of you know 10

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whatever they say thousand foot view of the fire

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service and you really started to see the silos

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and the lack of communication how did your kind

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of national perspective factor in when you started

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seeing different fire departments maybe not communicating

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the way they should no i think that that it definitely

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A, when I got on the fire service, I was very

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young. I was 20 years old. I knew everything

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like every 20 year old does. I was the smartest

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person in every room. So I thought, and I had

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to learn and mature and figure out that I didn't

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know near as much as I thought I did. And so

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I really didn't appreciate a lot of the, I think

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the background added to the maturation when it

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finally came to fruition. And I'm very, I'm very

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Johnny come lately to the traveling. and visiting

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different fire services because Firehouse Vigilance

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has only been around since 2018. And so it's

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not like it's been a long, long journey, which

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is crazy to say now because it's been six years,

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but it's almost seven. Man, I'm losing track

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of time. But it's crazy how quickly it stacks

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up. But even that, when it started, it's only

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been over the last few years that I've started

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traveling and seeing the different departments.

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And I think that it is that paradigm shift that

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kind of you realize, oh, I'm understanding this

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better because of the background. If that makes

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sense. But I never took the background into it

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thinking I'm going to understand this better.

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It's more of a hindsight than it is a projection.

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Yeah, I was just amazed when I really kind of

00:10:51.990 --> 00:10:54.389
took a step back and, you know, especially on

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the wellness side, started to try and bring solutions

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to problems that, you know, there are international

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organizations or national, excuse me, you know,

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whether it's unions or chiefs organizations or

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whatever. But there wasn't this communication.

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And I would see time and time again. in the bad,

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you know, the departments that weren't well led,

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let me put it that way, where, you know, police

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and fire wouldn't talk or county and city wouldn't

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talk. And I just remember going, what the fuck

00:11:20.909 --> 00:11:23.490
is going on here? These are a bunch of grownups

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who have to serve and lives are in their hands

00:11:26.610 --> 00:11:29.190
and they're not talking to each other. And that's

00:11:29.190 --> 00:11:31.429
when I had this aha moment of, you know, the

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good departments like Anaheim, I'll put that

00:11:33.409 --> 00:11:35.809
there. They were part of something called Northnet.

00:11:36.519 --> 00:11:39.179
All the surrounding agencies would train together

00:11:39.179 --> 00:11:41.679
in the Central Fire Academy. You know, we do,

00:11:41.700 --> 00:11:43.279
you know, whether it's classroom, whether it

00:11:43.279 --> 00:11:45.620
was hands on training. And so there was this

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kind of mutual aid that was just assumed, you

00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:50.940
know, amongst all these cities. And the same

00:11:50.940 --> 00:11:53.179
with PD. We do drills with PD. You know, they'd

00:11:53.179 --> 00:11:55.600
come to the station. And, you know, that was,

00:11:55.700 --> 00:11:58.059
to me, the gold standard of how it should be.

00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:00.500
But this lack of communication and sometimes,

00:12:00.700 --> 00:12:02.820
you know, almost like narcissism, ego is getting

00:12:02.820 --> 00:12:05.850
in the way. Other places. Like, you know, the

00:12:05.850 --> 00:12:07.610
fire station would be downstairs, the police

00:12:07.610 --> 00:12:09.250
station would be upstairs, and they never even

00:12:09.250 --> 00:12:11.590
spoke to each other. It was just mind -blowing.

00:12:11.669 --> 00:12:14.789
So seeing that, it's not just an empty criticism.

00:12:14.870 --> 00:12:16.909
It's like, all right, well, we've seen what it's

00:12:16.909 --> 00:12:19.509
supposed to look like. How can we now get these

00:12:19.509 --> 00:12:23.409
other agencies to understand this is the kind

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of interaction that, God forbid, you have a school

00:12:25.690 --> 00:12:30.190
shooting or a tornado. Yes, some sort of disaster.

00:12:30.429 --> 00:12:33.830
And the crazy part, James, is that it's actually...

00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:37.879
better now than it's ever been because of you

00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:40.740
know as bad as social media can be and as bad

00:12:40.740 --> 00:12:45.360
as as the negatives of the internets like we

00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:49.740
are the silos are being torn down because of

00:12:49.740 --> 00:12:52.399
the the world is shrinking because of the internet

00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:55.659
and the social media And so it's actually better

00:12:55.659 --> 00:12:57.259
now than it was, which is crazy to think about

00:12:57.259 --> 00:12:59.240
because there's still places where they will

00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:01.259
drive into their jurisdiction and stop their

00:13:01.259 --> 00:13:03.360
rig and watch something burn because that's where

00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:06.080
their jurisdiction ends. And it's crazy to me

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that that still exists, especially in this world.

00:13:09.700 --> 00:13:12.500
Tactics and strategies and best practices and

00:13:12.500 --> 00:13:17.220
UL and FSRI studies and the information is out

00:13:17.220 --> 00:13:19.059
there. So it's crazy to me that it still exists.

00:13:19.139 --> 00:13:20.740
And we're in the best place that we've ever been

00:13:20.740 --> 00:13:23.590
for fixing it. And the fact of... The matter

00:13:23.590 --> 00:13:26.870
is, like you said, you've seen what it can be,

00:13:26.970 --> 00:13:29.029
and then you also see the reality of what it's

00:13:29.029 --> 00:13:32.110
like in some places. Absolutely. Well, going

00:13:32.110 --> 00:13:33.970
back to your early life, we'll kind of walk through

00:13:33.970 --> 00:13:36.730
into the fire service. What about sports and

00:13:36.730 --> 00:13:38.350
exercise? What were you playing and doing when

00:13:38.350 --> 00:13:41.250
you were a kid? I loved football. Now, because

00:13:41.250 --> 00:13:46.259
of the traveling, I never... got to play i i

00:13:46.259 --> 00:13:48.059
there was this period where i got to play some

00:13:48.059 --> 00:13:50.620
little league football for a little bit uh around

00:13:50.620 --> 00:13:54.299
age 10 11 and then i did not get to play a lot

00:13:54.299 --> 00:13:56.679
of team sports but i loved loved loved football

00:13:56.679 --> 00:13:59.659
so i was literally the kid that would go out

00:13:59.659 --> 00:14:03.289
and play football with by himself I would throw

00:14:03.289 --> 00:14:05.570
it up in the air and go catch it as cheesy as

00:14:05.570 --> 00:14:07.350
that sounds. I literally would. Cause we'd be,

00:14:07.370 --> 00:14:09.669
you know, we'd pull into a church and my dad

00:14:09.669 --> 00:14:10.909
was going to preach there the next day. And I

00:14:10.909 --> 00:14:12.809
had a Saturday evening to kill. So I'd go to

00:14:12.809 --> 00:14:14.889
the park that was nearby or the field or whatever.

00:14:14.990 --> 00:14:17.450
And I would play football with myself. And, uh,

00:14:17.590 --> 00:14:19.570
and that was also part of it because I would

00:14:19.570 --> 00:14:21.090
meet kids the next day at the church. And then

00:14:21.090 --> 00:14:22.710
we'd spend a day there and, and, and they're

00:14:22.710 --> 00:14:25.389
the single serving friends that, you know, boom,

00:14:25.529 --> 00:14:27.029
you get to have the friend that day. And then

00:14:27.029 --> 00:14:29.519
you're. leaving and traveling but uh no football

00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:31.779
was i loved football in fact i was going to be

00:14:31.779 --> 00:14:33.279
a football player i was going to go to college

00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:35.039
and play football i was never good enough so

00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:37.539
that's that's a whole separate issue but i did

00:14:37.539 --> 00:14:40.539
love uh american tackle football so i gotta say

00:14:40.539 --> 00:14:45.120
it that way did you ever were you ever a part

00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:47.179
of an organization where that's what you were

00:14:47.179 --> 00:14:49.980
doing like all school all college or did you

00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:53.220
find yourself playing at a level where you weren't

00:14:53.220 --> 00:14:55.519
so entrenched that you lost that love of the

00:14:55.519 --> 00:15:00.129
sport I played at the high school level whenever

00:15:00.129 --> 00:15:02.309
we were actually settled down and weren't traveling

00:15:02.309 --> 00:15:04.570
as much during my high school years. And I got

00:15:04.570 --> 00:15:05.990
to play at the high school level, but I loved

00:15:05.990 --> 00:15:07.990
it. I loved it. Now, the team was not a good

00:15:07.990 --> 00:15:10.970
team. We weren't competitive even, you know,

00:15:11.009 --> 00:15:13.710
but I did love it. In fact, we had so few players

00:15:13.710 --> 00:15:15.990
that you had to basically, once the game started,

00:15:16.029 --> 00:15:17.870
you never left. Offense, defense, there was no,

00:15:17.970 --> 00:15:20.029
you just played the entire time just to finish

00:15:20.029 --> 00:15:22.440
the game. And there was no winning the game.

00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:24.480
It was just playing. And so you really had to

00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:26.679
love the game because it was just getting your

00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:29.899
teeth kicked in week after week. And, you know,

00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:31.940
the victories were, oh, we scored. You know,

00:15:31.960 --> 00:15:36.039
that was a victory. And no complaints because

00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:41.100
I got to play. And I loved it. But I don't think

00:15:41.100 --> 00:15:45.299
anything ever dimmed it other than as I got out

00:15:45.299 --> 00:15:47.759
of high school. And I wanted to I wanted to move

00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:49.500
on and go, but I wasn't good enough. That's not

00:15:49.500 --> 00:15:51.179
the point. I didn't understand that then. But

00:15:51.179 --> 00:15:54.179
I also got married very young, had kids very

00:15:54.179 --> 00:15:56.500
young and had responsibilities very young. And

00:15:56.500 --> 00:15:59.559
so that had that that little dream, as unrealistic

00:15:59.559 --> 00:16:02.580
as it was, had to die. Well, it's interesting

00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:04.960
because I speak to a lot of high level athletes,

00:16:05.100 --> 00:16:07.399
a lot of coaches and strength conditioning coaches

00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:10.759
and. All of them, hands down, all of them say

00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:13.360
that the specialization of sport in our children

00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:14.879
has got to the point where it's detrimental,

00:16:15.220 --> 00:16:18.259
whether it's the money for the parents, whether

00:16:18.259 --> 00:16:20.240
it's the wear and tear on the child and then

00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:22.360
entering, you know, as I've seen many times in

00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:24.720
the States, the Uncle Rico's, you know, it could

00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:26.360
have, should have, would have been. But when

00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:28.460
you see people that were multi -sport athletes,

00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:31.679
or in your case, you love football and you got

00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:35.080
to play most of the game. rather than being on

00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:37.279
the bench because you're not the number one seed

00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:40.240
in whatever position. I think that's really where

00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:42.799
we need to get back to again. That way the kids

00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:45.299
love the sport because as one coach was saying

00:16:45.299 --> 00:16:47.539
to me just the other day, if they're destined

00:16:47.539 --> 00:16:49.960
to be incredible at the sport, they will emerge.

00:16:50.259 --> 00:16:52.419
They'll be the tall poppy and then they can send

00:16:52.419 --> 00:16:55.179
them down the higher level of coaching. But to

00:16:55.179 --> 00:16:58.320
destroy the love of play by this kind of elitist

00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:00.139
mentality that you've got to win rather than

00:17:00.139 --> 00:17:02.730
these kids are enjoying the game. I think that's

00:17:02.730 --> 00:17:05.849
something that we do well to revisit. I think

00:17:05.849 --> 00:17:07.569
there is a level for sports where you can teach

00:17:07.569 --> 00:17:10.329
those life lessons of effort and reward and the

00:17:10.329 --> 00:17:14.009
value of leaving it all out there and everything

00:17:14.009 --> 00:17:15.849
like that. I think there's a level where that

00:17:15.849 --> 00:17:18.329
starts to become the lesson you learn. But below

00:17:18.329 --> 00:17:19.789
that level, and I would say that's the upper

00:17:19.789 --> 00:17:23.029
level of high school. Below that level, I would

00:17:23.029 --> 00:17:25.349
say you need to teach them to love the sport.

00:17:25.549 --> 00:17:30.509
You need to give them a responsibility on the

00:17:30.509 --> 00:17:32.990
team. and then let them fulfill and fail at that

00:17:32.990 --> 00:17:34.509
responsibility and then coach them up and beat.

00:17:34.569 --> 00:17:36.329
There's too many little league coaches out there

00:17:36.329 --> 00:17:38.650
that think they're Vince Lombardi, that honestly

00:17:38.650 --> 00:17:41.670
think they're playing for the Super Bowl, and

00:17:41.670 --> 00:17:47.670
they are destroying kids' passion instead of

00:17:47.670 --> 00:17:51.130
developing it. And it's very sad. And I don't

00:17:51.130 --> 00:17:52.490
want to put it just on the coaches because the

00:17:52.490 --> 00:17:57.220
parents do it. I mean, it's a – it's a trap to

00:17:57.220 --> 00:17:58.920
fall into that you think your kid, you know,

00:17:58.920 --> 00:18:00.539
just let them love and play the game. And if

00:18:00.539 --> 00:18:02.160
they're destined for greatness, I promise you

00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:04.640
it will, it will come out. You're not going to,

00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:07.559
you're not going to develop your kid into the

00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:10.759
next Patrick Mahomes, you know, you're not. And

00:18:10.759 --> 00:18:13.720
so anyway. Yeah, no, I agree. I just, I shared

00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:17.839
a video of a 13 year old rapper today. This kid

00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:21.480
has the same skills of any of the adult rappers

00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:23.140
I've ever listened to. And I was big into hip

00:18:23.140 --> 00:18:25.759
hop, especially in the 90s. That obviously is

00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:28.220
that kid's calling. So he's going to excel and

00:18:28.220 --> 00:18:30.799
probably get in a record deal. He will rise above.

00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:33.579
That's that's a gift, you know. But then, you

00:18:33.579 --> 00:18:35.319
know, sure, there's lots of kids that like to

00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:38.259
rap. And if I try to rap in, it would be a laughingstock.

00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:41.200
But if you really enjoy rapping, then rap. And

00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:42.599
I think that's the point is, you know, yeah,

00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:45.299
you shouldn't not do it just because you're not

00:18:45.299 --> 00:18:48.079
going to be the best in the world. Right. There's

00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:50.119
levels. There's levels to it. And you should

00:18:50.119 --> 00:18:51.940
love and have passion for the level you're at.

00:18:54.579 --> 00:18:56.279
And that should be encouraged. That should be

00:18:56.279 --> 00:19:01.019
encouraged, not destroyed. So I'll leave it at

00:19:01.019 --> 00:19:03.420
that. There's a lot of scar tissue associated

00:19:03.420 --> 00:19:05.970
with Little League football and whatnot. Yeah.

00:19:06.029 --> 00:19:07.650
Well, I mean, even if you could carry that to

00:19:07.650 --> 00:19:10.029
the fire service, you know, I mean, you have

00:19:10.029 --> 00:19:12.710
the guys that, you know, ridicule the rookies

00:19:12.710 --> 00:19:14.490
because they don't know how to do X, Y or Z.

00:19:14.609 --> 00:19:16.750
And you listen to someone like Al Benjamin that

00:19:16.750 --> 00:19:20.549
I had on years ago, FDNY Rescue One firefighter,

00:19:20.549 --> 00:19:23.109
true, true senior firefighter. And they're all

00:19:23.109 --> 00:19:25.230
about lifting these people up. Now, yeah, of

00:19:25.230 --> 00:19:27.029
course, if you don't get it on the fourth or

00:19:27.029 --> 00:19:29.509
fifth, you know, then you have to start drawing

00:19:29.509 --> 00:19:32.390
a line. But, you know, ridiculing someone because

00:19:32.390 --> 00:19:34.730
they don't know how to do a certain thing rather

00:19:34.730 --> 00:19:37.410
than just taking the time to teach them. Again,

00:19:37.549 --> 00:19:39.829
you're going to keep that fire burning for the

00:19:39.829 --> 00:19:41.369
love of the job. But if you're constantly just

00:19:41.369 --> 00:19:44.049
pounding them really because of your own, you

00:19:44.049 --> 00:19:47.170
know, inadequacies. Inadequacies, ego and deficiency.

00:19:47.430 --> 00:19:51.490
And to Benjamin's point, it's and even to the

00:19:51.490 --> 00:19:53.349
little league coaches, give them a responsibility,

00:19:53.670 --> 00:19:56.509
give them an expectation, let them succeed or

00:19:56.509 --> 00:19:59.109
fail. And then if they fail, coach them up so

00:19:59.109 --> 00:20:01.119
that they can exceed it. And if they exceed it,

00:20:01.140 --> 00:20:03.400
praise them. But the last thing they need is

00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:07.259
no expectations or cloudy expectations and then

00:20:07.259 --> 00:20:09.099
get beat down because they didn't meet them.

00:20:09.220 --> 00:20:14.940
And that's where a lot of misplaced, I don't

00:20:14.940 --> 00:20:16.660
know what you call it. They call it accountability

00:20:16.660 --> 00:20:19.119
or discipline. It's not accountability or discipline.

00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:22.420
It's compliance and harassment, you know, and

00:20:22.420 --> 00:20:25.470
that's all it is. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I think

00:20:25.470 --> 00:20:27.690
mentorship is the answer. You know, let me show

00:20:27.690 --> 00:20:29.210
you how to do it. I grew up on a farm in England,

00:20:29.269 --> 00:20:31.569
but I still didn't know how to take a chainsaw

00:20:31.569 --> 00:20:33.349
apart and certainly didn't know how to cut a

00:20:33.349 --> 00:20:35.650
roof. You know, we cut wood, but we didn't, you

00:20:35.650 --> 00:20:37.490
know, stand on a burning building three stories

00:20:37.490 --> 00:20:40.349
in the air. So, yeah, I mean, even with some

00:20:40.349 --> 00:20:42.529
kind of agricultural and hands on experience.

00:20:43.309 --> 00:20:44.970
There were so many things that I didn't know

00:20:44.970 --> 00:20:47.690
that other men and women showed me how to do.

00:20:47.930 --> 00:20:49.970
And you came in ahead of the game because of

00:20:49.970 --> 00:20:53.750
your farm upbringing. So just imagine a kid who's

00:20:53.750 --> 00:20:55.710
never even seen a lawnmower that has a pool start

00:20:55.710 --> 00:20:59.410
coming into the fire service. And if you beat

00:20:59.410 --> 00:21:01.910
them down for that, then shame on you. Shame

00:21:01.910 --> 00:21:03.789
on you, plain and simple. It's like, no, they

00:21:03.789 --> 00:21:06.369
don't know how to do it, so teach them. Absolutely.

00:21:06.609 --> 00:21:08.730
I've had a lot of the veteran leaders say...

00:21:09.130 --> 00:21:10.910
The number of times they've gone to the new guys

00:21:10.910 --> 00:21:12.650
and said, hey, I can't get my iPhone to work

00:21:12.650 --> 00:21:14.609
properly. Or, you know, I mean, this is the thing.

00:21:14.650 --> 00:21:17.369
It's knowledge sharing. Absolutely. And Einstein's

00:21:17.369 --> 00:21:19.190
credited with the quote, if you judge a fish

00:21:19.190 --> 00:21:21.730
by its ability to climb a tree, you know, then

00:21:21.730 --> 00:21:24.750
everyone's an idiot. And of course, I'll join

00:21:24.750 --> 00:21:27.009
you in bastardizing quotes all day long. All

00:21:27.009 --> 00:21:30.589
right. Well, then back to your career aspirations.

00:21:30.829 --> 00:21:32.589
When you were in high school, were you dreaming

00:21:32.589 --> 00:21:34.369
of the fire service already? Or was there something

00:21:34.369 --> 00:21:39.929
else? No, no. I was never. I've always. It's

00:21:39.929 --> 00:21:41.549
kind of hard to explain, but I've always thought

00:21:41.549 --> 00:21:44.150
firefighting was just cool. I just thought it

00:21:44.150 --> 00:21:46.609
was cool. I never thought I was going to be a

00:21:46.609 --> 00:21:48.750
firefighter. So there's a small difference. I

00:21:48.750 --> 00:21:51.529
remember I had these memories of me sitting in

00:21:51.529 --> 00:21:54.210
the station wagon, looking up, and a fire truck

00:21:54.210 --> 00:21:56.710
pulls up and stops next to us. And it was an

00:21:56.710 --> 00:21:59.069
open cab. He's sitting on the doghouse looking

00:21:59.069 --> 00:22:01.250
backwards in the jump seat. And I just looking

00:22:01.250 --> 00:22:04.369
up there at him going, that's fucking cool. Maybe

00:22:04.369 --> 00:22:07.750
not in those words as a kid. That was the mindset.

00:22:08.369 --> 00:22:11.009
And so it was always there, but I was never,

00:22:11.029 --> 00:22:13.230
it was never like I was going to be a firefighter.

00:22:13.470 --> 00:22:15.930
In fact, coming out of high school, I was working

00:22:15.930 --> 00:22:19.329
really low wage jobs, low skill labor jobs, a

00:22:19.329 --> 00:22:22.069
lot of construction. And I did not know what

00:22:22.069 --> 00:22:23.589
I was going to do with my life. I really, I was

00:22:23.589 --> 00:22:26.309
kind of one of those just kind of, Oh, well you

00:22:26.309 --> 00:22:28.269
got a job. I can work it. Okay. This is a lot

00:22:28.269 --> 00:22:30.430
of remodel work and commercial remodel work.

00:22:30.569 --> 00:22:34.339
And then yeah, low wage jobs. So how did that

00:22:34.339 --> 00:22:37.240
take you into the fire service? My father, he

00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:39.680
was he's always been a preacher, missionary,

00:22:39.980 --> 00:22:41.759
Sunday school teacher. He's always been involved

00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:43.599
in church ministry and politics in some way,

00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:46.339
shape or form. And he was a Sunday school teacher

00:22:46.339 --> 00:22:50.420
at his current church teaching adults. And at

00:22:50.420 --> 00:22:53.599
the time, a fire chief was actually taking his

00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:56.140
adult Sunday school class. You know, Sunday school

00:22:56.140 --> 00:22:59.220
sounds like but you get my point. It was a it

00:22:59.220 --> 00:23:03.140
was a and. My dad was, of course, worried about

00:23:03.140 --> 00:23:05.599
me because I was young, married, had a newborn

00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:10.759
daughter and was working a job with no future.

00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:12.799
And I really didn't have like any sort of future

00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:14.880
that looked promising other than paying bills,

00:23:15.019 --> 00:23:18.660
you know, and or attempting to pay bills. And

00:23:18.660 --> 00:23:20.539
he said, hey, this fire chief says they're getting

00:23:20.539 --> 00:23:23.980
ready to hire in Moore. And that, you know, Southside,

00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:25.700
Southside, OKC, Moore's where I grew up, where

00:23:25.700 --> 00:23:28.849
I played Little League football. I was like,

00:23:28.890 --> 00:23:31.990
oh, really? And my dad actually did all the legwork.

00:23:32.049 --> 00:23:34.250
He said, you need to get your EMT. You need to

00:23:34.250 --> 00:23:38.230
try out. And so one thing I was always good at

00:23:38.230 --> 00:23:41.809
was taking tests. And I never had to work hard

00:23:41.809 --> 00:23:45.069
to score well on a test. And so I had just done

00:23:45.069 --> 00:23:47.910
a lot of ACT prep and taken ACTs because I didn't

00:23:47.910 --> 00:23:49.670
know if I was going to go to college. Obviously,

00:23:49.730 --> 00:23:51.470
football wasn't going to work out. So I really

00:23:51.470 --> 00:23:53.589
wasn't in a position to afford college. But I

00:23:53.589 --> 00:23:56.990
was still taking the ACT to see. And so at the

00:23:56.990 --> 00:23:59.710
time. the fire service was, you know, cause the

00:23:59.710 --> 00:24:01.329
fire service swings back and forth. They're like,

00:24:01.390 --> 00:24:03.529
we need to hire guys from the trades, you know,

00:24:03.529 --> 00:24:04.829
and work the people that were, and then they're

00:24:04.829 --> 00:24:05.930
like, Oh, we're getting too many of these guys.

00:24:05.950 --> 00:24:07.869
We need to hire smart people that are brainiacs,

00:24:07.869 --> 00:24:09.789
you know? And at the time they had swung over

00:24:09.789 --> 00:24:12.829
to, and the test that I took was super similar

00:24:12.829 --> 00:24:15.430
to the ACT that I'd been prepping for. So I firmly

00:24:15.430 --> 00:24:16.950
believe everything happens for a reason. So when

00:24:16.950 --> 00:24:19.369
I took that test, I think I want to say there

00:24:19.369 --> 00:24:22.029
was 700 ish applicants. And then out of those

00:24:22.029 --> 00:24:25.190
700, I came in number two. And then the guy who

00:24:25.190 --> 00:24:26.769
was number one, who's still working on the job

00:24:26.769 --> 00:24:28.250
with me, it's pretty funny because we talk about

00:24:28.250 --> 00:24:33.569
it, but he was there. And so that put me into

00:24:33.569 --> 00:24:36.210
position. And the other thing was, is I was fresh

00:24:36.210 --> 00:24:38.329
out of high school. I was pretty young. I was

00:24:38.329 --> 00:24:41.329
still trying to play football. And so I was still

00:24:41.329 --> 00:24:44.390
in very good physical condition. And so when

00:24:44.390 --> 00:24:45.910
it came to the physical, I was able to absolutely

00:24:45.910 --> 00:24:48.930
do really. So on the written part and the physical

00:24:48.930 --> 00:24:51.230
part, I scored really well. And so the rest of

00:24:51.230 --> 00:24:53.650
it was, man, I didn't realize then how lucky

00:24:53.650 --> 00:24:56.829
I got, but it changed my life. How many spots

00:24:56.829 --> 00:25:00.089
were you vying for at that 700? We hired six.

00:25:01.809 --> 00:25:05.250
So I'm segwaying to this a lot recently because

00:25:05.250 --> 00:25:07.609
obviously it needs to be spoken about. When I

00:25:07.609 --> 00:25:10.069
hear people from and you came on earlier than

00:25:10.069 --> 00:25:11.509
me, I think about five years earlier than I did.

00:25:11.849 --> 00:25:14.109
But around that area, all the way through till

00:25:14.109 --> 00:25:17.089
about 10 years ago, it was extremely competitive.

00:25:17.869 --> 00:25:20.069
Now, as we sit here, I don't know how it is in

00:25:20.069 --> 00:25:21.809
your department, but a lot of places are really

00:25:21.809 --> 00:25:23.869
struggling. The higher standards are being lowered.

00:25:24.069 --> 00:25:27.349
Oh, yeah. Even like sign on bonuses and all kinds

00:25:27.349 --> 00:25:30.640
of stuff. Oh, yeah. More laterals. What are you

00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:33.299
seeing through your eyes, the environment that

00:25:33.299 --> 00:25:36.339
you entered back in the 90s to where we are now?

00:25:36.519 --> 00:25:39.819
And are there any contributing factors that you

00:25:39.819 --> 00:25:43.740
are seeing yourself? Oh, yeah. How long you got

00:25:43.740 --> 00:25:45.400
it? Because I have all sorts of theories. Now,

00:25:45.420 --> 00:25:47.039
I can't back them up with any sort of experiential

00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:48.759
data or anything like that or any peer reviewed

00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:50.759
studies. But I have tons of theories on why.

00:25:51.500 --> 00:25:54.960
But no, we went from those kind of hiring numbers

00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:58.529
like, you know. 500 plus for five spots to go

00:25:58.529 --> 00:26:01.230
into, I think at our lowest point, a few years

00:26:01.230 --> 00:26:05.130
back, we had like 36 applicants for three spots.

00:26:05.430 --> 00:26:07.589
So going from like a hundred to one down to 10

00:26:07.589 --> 00:26:11.049
to one. And, and so, um, what we ended up doing,

00:26:11.109 --> 00:26:12.829
which we've, we've, we've turned that around.

00:26:12.869 --> 00:26:16.109
This is just speaking. Uh, we, we started working

00:26:16.109 --> 00:26:20.170
on what can we do to enable people to apply easier.

00:26:20.490 --> 00:26:23.750
So we, we. I don't want to go into the weeds

00:26:23.750 --> 00:26:25.730
too much, but we basically made it easier to

00:26:25.730 --> 00:26:27.769
apply. We, we, we did multiple testing times.

00:26:27.789 --> 00:26:29.329
So people that had a full -time job, but thought

00:26:29.329 --> 00:26:31.210
about becoming a firefighter, they could do it

00:26:31.210 --> 00:26:33.269
on the weekend instead of having, you know, instead

00:26:33.269 --> 00:26:36.069
of making it, Hey, if you want this work for

00:26:36.069 --> 00:26:38.670
it, we made it, Hey, if you thought about it,

00:26:38.670 --> 00:26:40.390
come try out and made it as easy as possible,

00:26:40.390 --> 00:26:43.009
multiple physicals, multiple. And then we dropped

00:26:43.009 --> 00:26:44.569
a lot of the requirements. It used to be, you

00:26:44.569 --> 00:26:47.509
had to have fire one, fire two, hazmat ops, hazmat

00:26:47.509 --> 00:26:51.079
awareness, hazmat ops, EMT, just to apply. And

00:26:51.079 --> 00:26:53.200
now you need none of those and you can apply

00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:55.019
and we'll get you them if you make it through

00:26:55.019 --> 00:26:58.660
the process. And that's turned around our numbers.

00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:01.740
I think last time we had about 250 people that

00:27:01.740 --> 00:27:06.180
made it through the application process and showed

00:27:06.180 --> 00:27:08.500
up for our written, which is a massive improvement.

00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:12.680
What about the quality of candidate that you're

00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:15.670
getting? And again, not. talking shit about people

00:27:15.670 --> 00:27:17.349
that are coming off the street and wanting to

00:27:17.349 --> 00:27:19.230
get into this profession because those non -cert

00:27:19.230 --> 00:27:21.890
programs do find some great firefighters as do

00:27:21.890 --> 00:27:25.849
mentorship programs but when you have a profession

00:27:25.849 --> 00:27:28.430
where you have to walk through the door with

00:27:28.430 --> 00:27:30.549
with x amount and again that can be a barrier

00:27:30.549 --> 00:27:32.569
to entry to people that can't afford fire academy

00:27:32.569 --> 00:27:36.250
etc so i'm acknowledging that But when that standard

00:27:36.250 --> 00:27:38.750
is set so high and people are really padding

00:27:38.750 --> 00:27:41.230
out their resume, they're doing volunteer firefighting

00:27:41.230 --> 00:27:45.589
or forestry or ambulance operator, you know,

00:27:45.630 --> 00:27:48.589
you are arguably getting a higher caliber than

00:27:48.589 --> 00:27:50.309
someone that's walking through with absolutely

00:27:50.309 --> 00:27:52.589
nothing. Like I said, within that group, there

00:27:52.589 --> 00:27:54.089
are going to be some phenomenal firefighters.

00:27:54.549 --> 00:27:58.190
But as I see people changing the environment

00:27:58.190 --> 00:28:01.700
to fill these seats. In some areas, that bar

00:28:01.700 --> 00:28:04.000
is being lowered and you're not getting the same,

00:28:04.059 --> 00:28:06.240
whether it's physical conditioning, whether it's

00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:09.599
experience, et cetera, in that uniform than we

00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:12.559
used to 10 years ago. So what about that with

00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:14.079
that lens? You've removed these requirements.

00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:17.380
What are you seeing aside from some, I'm sure,

00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:20.319
phenomenal firefighters? No, no, I have to qualify

00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:26.319
because I have a very, my lens is very different.

00:28:26.700 --> 00:28:28.619
because of the numbers with like a big class

00:28:28.619 --> 00:28:31.400
for us is the six or seven, you know? And so

00:28:31.400 --> 00:28:33.759
to get six or seven great candidates is a lot

00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:35.299
easier than when you have to fill a class of

00:28:35.299 --> 00:28:38.380
60 like Oklahoma city does next door. And so

00:28:38.380 --> 00:28:42.160
that to me, we were able to feel that we were

00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:44.039
able to find the three best out of the two 50.

00:28:44.410 --> 00:28:50.069
or the five best out of the 160. And so I think

00:28:50.069 --> 00:28:53.049
that our candidates are extremely good. And we

00:28:53.049 --> 00:28:58.869
also focus extremely much on trying to measure

00:28:58.869 --> 00:29:01.670
passion, intensity, and character. Because if

00:29:01.670 --> 00:29:04.109
they have those things, then all the certs and

00:29:04.109 --> 00:29:05.710
everything else doesn't give you those things.

00:29:05.789 --> 00:29:07.950
But if you can hire for those things, then that

00:29:07.950 --> 00:29:10.750
fixes a lot of the other. Now, that's my qualifier

00:29:10.750 --> 00:29:12.369
for answering this question, because as I've

00:29:12.369 --> 00:29:14.890
traveled and gone... all around the country and

00:29:14.890 --> 00:29:17.309
seeing people's struggles with putting butts

00:29:17.309 --> 00:29:24.809
in seats in the rigs, it is a lower quality of

00:29:24.809 --> 00:29:28.869
entry -level firefighter across the fire service.

00:29:30.289 --> 00:29:33.170
And man, again, I think there's a lot of reasons

00:29:33.170 --> 00:29:36.369
for it. We're lucky. I say lucky. We don't transport.

00:29:36.509 --> 00:29:37.930
We don't run an ambulance service. We have a

00:29:37.930 --> 00:29:40.069
private ambulance service that we respond with.

00:29:40.230 --> 00:29:44.900
We're still 90 % EMS calls. But We don't transport,

00:29:44.980 --> 00:29:47.660
we don't staff the ambulance rigs. And I think

00:29:47.660 --> 00:29:54.420
that is a, I think it's a loss of mission focus

00:29:54.420 --> 00:29:56.460
for the fire service. And it's one of the things

00:29:56.460 --> 00:29:59.799
that has, I don't want to use too hyperbolic

00:29:59.799 --> 00:30:01.720
of a word, too much exaggeration of saying destroyed,

00:30:01.819 --> 00:30:04.220
but it's one of the things that has eroded the

00:30:04.220 --> 00:30:08.819
image of what a firefighter is. And I always

00:30:08.819 --> 00:30:11.119
say this, if you want the fire service to turn

00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:12.799
into an ambulance service, then treat it like

00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:15.259
one. And if you treat it like one, it will become

00:30:15.259 --> 00:30:17.839
one. And I've never seen an ambulance service

00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:19.880
that has the esprit de corps, the camaraderie,

00:30:19.900 --> 00:30:24.099
the fellowship, the tradition that the fire service

00:30:24.099 --> 00:30:28.420
has. I've never seen one. And so, again, I think

00:30:28.420 --> 00:30:30.960
that's the biggest issue. And the other part

00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:34.859
is, there's very real issues, as you are highly

00:30:34.859 --> 00:30:41.069
aware, of mental health, suicide, PTSD. divorce

00:30:41.069 --> 00:30:44.930
rates and relationship issues. And some of those,

00:30:45.029 --> 00:30:48.329
the fire service is worn like a badge of honor

00:30:48.329 --> 00:30:52.970
and completely said, well, why would I ever want

00:30:52.970 --> 00:30:55.390
to become involved in that? There's so many better

00:30:55.390 --> 00:30:58.390
options to do that. We have to acknowledge those

00:30:58.390 --> 00:30:59.950
things are real. We need to address them. We

00:30:59.950 --> 00:31:02.730
need to fix them, but let's not glorify them

00:31:02.730 --> 00:31:06.700
as a thank me for my service type. badge of honor

00:31:06.700 --> 00:31:09.299
and then and it's not a recruitment tool is basically

00:31:09.299 --> 00:31:12.900
what i'm trying to say yeah no absolutely i think

00:31:12.900 --> 00:31:15.769
even with the the different ways that EMS and

00:31:15.769 --> 00:31:18.289
fire integrates. I loved Anaheim because they,

00:31:18.369 --> 00:31:20.910
we were on either trucks or engines and then

00:31:20.910 --> 00:31:23.230
we had care ambulance and they were the transport

00:31:23.230 --> 00:31:25.650
unit. If it was ALS, the medics rode in with

00:31:25.650 --> 00:31:28.430
the ambulance truck and engine or truck or engine

00:31:28.430 --> 00:31:30.089
followed to the hospital, picked them up. We're

00:31:30.089 --> 00:31:32.269
back in service again. Oh, and I want to be,

00:31:32.269 --> 00:31:33.549
I want to be super clear because I don't want

00:31:33.549 --> 00:31:34.690
to come across wrong. And I want to be clear

00:31:34.690 --> 00:31:37.069
because I ramble on my ADHD kicks in and I'll

00:31:37.069 --> 00:31:45.660
chase squirrels. But the EMS is, is. Emergency

00:31:45.660 --> 00:31:48.359
medicine and making a difference in people's

00:31:48.359 --> 00:31:51.079
lives on their worst days is important. Showing

00:31:51.079 --> 00:31:54.819
up and being proper for CPR and strokes and diabetic

00:31:54.819 --> 00:31:58.240
emergencies and trauma and, God forbid, mass

00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:00.500
casualty incidents or disasters. All those things

00:32:00.500 --> 00:32:03.000
are important. So I'm not downplaying our role

00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:06.059
in EMS. What I am downplaying is, or what I do

00:32:06.059 --> 00:32:10.579
think is a big problem, is the E in emergency.

00:32:11.390 --> 00:32:13.890
of ems and the fact that we are now the catch

00:32:13.890 --> 00:32:17.390
-all for we're the uber a lot of fire departments

00:32:17.390 --> 00:32:19.150
are the uber to take people to an urgent care

00:32:19.150 --> 00:32:22.650
clinic or to an emergency room and it is you

00:32:22.650 --> 00:32:25.509
know i saw a stat and again it's a facebook stat

00:32:25.509 --> 00:32:30.230
so bear with me on its veracity the uh busy busy

00:32:30.230 --> 00:32:32.990
truck made like 11 000 rides you know what i'm

00:32:32.990 --> 00:32:36.630
saying 11 000 rides in a year and i'm like what

00:32:36.630 --> 00:32:39.579
and then If you dig into the numbers, the stat

00:32:39.579 --> 00:32:43.200
said it was 48 of them were fire, you know? And

00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:48.740
so that means 10 ,960 were EMS. And out of those

00:32:48.740 --> 00:32:51.039
10 ,960, I want to know how many of them were

00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:54.519
BS and they should not have been on. And you

00:32:54.519 --> 00:32:56.880
know, if it's a truck and you're talking at least

00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:59.259
1 .5 million right now, if you're buying at least

00:32:59.259 --> 00:33:03.920
a $1 .5 million rig, the four, if it's, if it's

00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:06.119
properly staffed four to five firefighters rolling

00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:10.279
out. 10 ,960 times and probably 10 ,000 of them

00:33:10.279 --> 00:33:11.759
was a call they shouldn't have been going on.

00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:16.160
I had two guys on from Global Medical Response,

00:33:16.460 --> 00:33:19.019
GMR, and they're the parent company of AMR. Okay.

00:33:19.059 --> 00:33:21.160
And they have a thing called nurse navigation,

00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:23.279
which I'm shouting from the rooftops about now

00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:25.900
because I think this is how we fix this problem.

00:33:26.519 --> 00:33:29.539
They kind of corrected me when we talk about

00:33:29.539 --> 00:33:31.180
911 abuse. They're like, well, don't think about

00:33:31.180 --> 00:33:33.420
911 abuse because we've done nothing but tell

00:33:33.420 --> 00:33:36.150
people to call 911. When they have a problem,

00:33:36.230 --> 00:33:38.190
even when the doctor's office is closed, call

00:33:38.190 --> 00:33:42.150
911. So we've educated to the point where that's

00:33:42.150 --> 00:33:44.849
indoctrinated now in people's minds. So he said,

00:33:44.890 --> 00:33:48.049
think about it as a three -tier system. You got

00:33:48.049 --> 00:33:50.829
ALS, you got BLS, which we still will be responding

00:33:50.829 --> 00:33:53.390
to. But then you've also got this third tier,

00:33:53.529 --> 00:33:55.750
which is going to be, you know, Omega, Alpha,

00:33:55.869 --> 00:33:59.150
and some Bravo calls. And so, you know, you're

00:33:59.150 --> 00:34:01.589
a brand new parent, you know, you've got a...

00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:04.460
14 month old that's febrile that's thrown up

00:34:04.460 --> 00:34:06.140
once you know oh my god my kid's gonna explode

00:34:06.140 --> 00:34:10.559
from you know hypothermia and dehydration so

00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:13.719
you call 9 -1 -1 and they go through the emd

00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:16.039
questions and then okay well this is a low low

00:34:16.039 --> 00:34:19.179
acuity one would you like to speak to a nurse

00:34:19.179 --> 00:34:22.400
oh yeah that would be amazing the nurse then

00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:24.480
advises them they might have stuff at home they

00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:26.239
can literally treat at home you know get the

00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:28.280
the clothes off the kid give them baby Tylenol

00:34:28.280 --> 00:34:32.650
etc etc that's done Or they can make urgent care

00:34:32.650 --> 00:34:35.030
of clinic appointments for that person. They

00:34:35.030 --> 00:34:36.849
can even schedule an Uber. You just use that

00:34:36.849 --> 00:34:39.849
actual Uber, not a fire truck, and then get that

00:34:39.849 --> 00:34:42.550
person there. Or they can do telehealth with

00:34:42.550 --> 00:34:45.010
a physician. And now you can actually have a

00:34:45.010 --> 00:34:47.070
diagnosis. You can have prescriptions sent to

00:34:47.070 --> 00:34:48.949
your local pharmacist. Again, as we know now,

00:34:49.030 --> 00:34:52.789
that can be delivered to your home. So that is

00:34:52.789 --> 00:34:56.079
far less expensive to the patient. The fire crew

00:34:56.079 --> 00:34:58.420
or EMS crew has never woken up for that call.

00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:01.480
And an ER bed stays open for a real emergency.

00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:03.840
For a real emergency. So that, I think, is the

00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:07.619
solution for, rightly so, the BS calls that we

00:35:07.619 --> 00:35:11.389
run. Yes. I'm with you on shouting it from the

00:35:11.389 --> 00:35:13.869
rooftops. This needs to be talked about. I went

00:35:13.869 --> 00:35:16.349
to, it was right outside of San Diego, a fire

00:35:16.349 --> 00:35:18.070
district called Heartland Fire District. And

00:35:18.070 --> 00:35:19.469
this was the first place I ever heard about it.

00:35:19.469 --> 00:35:22.030
And they explained it to me. And I was, it blew

00:35:22.030 --> 00:35:23.750
my mind at the time. This was a couple of years

00:35:23.750 --> 00:35:25.690
ago that I was there. And it blew my mind because

00:35:25.690 --> 00:35:27.230
they said they had a person that actually scheduled

00:35:27.230 --> 00:35:28.969
Ubers and said, no, no, they'll come pick you

00:35:28.969 --> 00:35:30.289
up. They'll take you to the urgent care clinic.

00:35:30.690 --> 00:35:34.219
And you're good to go, Mr. Jones. And I was like,

00:35:34.300 --> 00:35:36.880
holy smokes, this needs to be everywhere. But

00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:38.880
it does take that vision and that commitment

00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:42.059
to say, no, this is, A, we have to acknowledge

00:35:42.059 --> 00:35:47.380
the problem. And part of it is, EMD, I love emergency

00:35:47.380 --> 00:35:49.019
medical dispatchers, but there is going to be

00:35:49.019 --> 00:35:51.800
mistakes where an emergency gets miscoded and

00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:53.780
a rig should have gone. And what happens if it

00:35:53.780 --> 00:35:55.219
doesn't? And we've always fallen on the side

00:35:55.219 --> 00:35:57.179
of we'll send it to everything, send it to everything.

00:35:57.260 --> 00:35:59.179
And that way we don't miss any of them. But we're

00:35:59.179 --> 00:36:01.599
starting to see the cost of that. We are. Yeah.

00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:03.639
Well, I mean, it goes both ways, though. What

00:36:03.639 --> 00:36:05.440
happens in nurse navigation, they go through

00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:07.440
like, oh, shit, this actually is a Charlie call.

00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:10.639
They kick it back to 911. That's beautiful. Yeah.

00:36:10.820 --> 00:36:13.440
And that's the other part. If the people if it

00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:15.340
is, we'll show up. It's not like we're trying

00:36:15.340 --> 00:36:18.539
not to show up to emergencies. And so, I mean,

00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:20.539
I don't know any firefighter that doesn't want

00:36:20.539 --> 00:36:22.699
to go to emergencies. I say that, you know, there's

00:36:22.699 --> 00:36:26.000
the burnouts, but don't get me wrong. If I ever

00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:30.489
see another fire, I'll be too soon. Yeah. All

00:36:30.489 --> 00:36:32.110
right. Well, then, while we're on this topic,

00:36:32.170 --> 00:36:34.070
I want to move forward your journey into the

00:36:34.070 --> 00:36:36.849
fire service as a young firefighter. But talk

00:36:36.849 --> 00:36:39.550
to me about your work week, because, as you know,

00:36:39.550 --> 00:36:41.570
when we spoke, you know, that that is a very

00:36:41.570 --> 00:36:43.309
important topic. We've got the Northeast that

00:36:43.309 --> 00:36:45.590
works 42. There's a revolution here in Florida

00:36:45.590 --> 00:36:48.110
that's starting to understand the proactive nature

00:36:48.110 --> 00:36:51.030
of investing in your firefighters health. What

00:36:51.030 --> 00:36:53.269
is your department working at the moment? Well,

00:36:53.329 --> 00:36:55.030
first, before I answer, I must say thank you,

00:36:55.030 --> 00:36:59.440
James Gearing, for beating the drum of. the work

00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:01.679
week and the and the and the 40 hour work week

00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:03.320
and the question the challenge you put out on

00:37:03.320 --> 00:37:07.360
my show 100 was amazing say why not why not uh

00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:10.139
but no we work the 56 hour work week uh we work

00:37:10.139 --> 00:37:12.699
one on one off uh repeat that three times and

00:37:12.699 --> 00:37:15.780
have a four day and so it's those two days in

00:37:15.780 --> 00:37:17.500
the middle that are just completely wasted you

00:37:17.500 --> 00:37:21.239
know the the days off that you can't you're just

00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:24.409
recovering especially now with the it There was

00:37:24.409 --> 00:37:26.010
a time probably, you know, when I hired on, we

00:37:26.010 --> 00:37:28.230
made 3 ,000 calls, less than 3 ,000 calls as

00:37:28.230 --> 00:37:32.889
a city. Now, you know, we're pushing 9 ,000,

00:37:32.889 --> 00:37:36.030
I believe. So we're not a big city. So please

00:37:36.030 --> 00:37:38.349
understand this. We're four stations, 75 line

00:37:38.349 --> 00:37:42.809
personnel and three shifts. So, but we've gone

00:37:42.809 --> 00:37:46.730
from, you know, 2 ,000 to 3 ,000 calls a year

00:37:46.730 --> 00:37:50.650
to more than triple and still work that same

00:37:50.650 --> 00:37:54.400
schedule. And we haven't put on. that many more

00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:56.699
personnel in that same time. We haven't tripled

00:37:56.699 --> 00:37:59.460
our size in that time. Yeah, a lot of places

00:37:59.460 --> 00:38:01.460
haven't, you know, and the call load has just

00:38:01.460 --> 00:38:03.500
gone up and up. I'd work the same schedule in

00:38:03.500 --> 00:38:05.679
California, but it was instead of four, it was

00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:10.239
four, one tour, and then it was six off the next

00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:12.820
tour. It's still a 56 -hour work week. But you

00:38:12.820 --> 00:38:14.519
used to think, oh, I'm one -on -one off. But

00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:17.059
again, as we talked about, you know, that's 24

00:38:17.059 --> 00:38:19.000
-hour shift is three eight -hour days. Well,

00:38:19.019 --> 00:38:22.860
that third day is from midnight to 8 a .m. on

00:38:22.860 --> 00:38:24.579
that so -called day off so you've worked eight

00:38:24.579 --> 00:38:26.780
hours and what they told you was a day off right

00:38:26.780 --> 00:38:29.780
really you're working every day until that four

00:38:29.780 --> 00:38:34.239
day 100 100 and uh no and i love the fact that

00:38:34.239 --> 00:38:35.559
you're beating the drum on it and people are

00:38:35.559 --> 00:38:36.980
starting to actually question and say wait a

00:38:36.980 --> 00:38:39.480
second why are we doing this and there was a

00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:41.420
time don't get me wrong there was a time when

00:38:41.420 --> 00:38:44.380
firefighters only went to fires and that's all

00:38:44.380 --> 00:38:48.400
they did and so They, they, it wasn't the, don't

00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:50.139
get me wrong. Those guys work their butts off

00:38:50.139 --> 00:38:52.059
and I'm not taking anything away from them, but

00:38:52.059 --> 00:38:54.280
they weren't making 9 ,000 rides as a, as a single

00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:56.559
company or single house or 11 ,000 rides as a

00:38:56.559 --> 00:38:59.679
single company. Uh, they weren't, uh, even in

00:38:59.679 --> 00:39:01.500
the war years, you know, they, they made a lot

00:39:01.500 --> 00:39:04.119
of fire. They still weren't maybe the busiest

00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:05.579
one. So I don't want to, I don't want to speak

00:39:05.579 --> 00:39:08.960
like I was there, but, um, there was a time when

00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:11.199
this schedule worked because of the workload,

00:39:11.320 --> 00:39:14.039
but it's all changed, but the schedule hasn't.

00:39:14.539 --> 00:39:16.409
Yeah. Well, even in the war years, if you think

00:39:16.409 --> 00:39:19.710
about the Bronx and Brooklyn, I know FDNY now,

00:39:19.929 --> 00:39:23.929
it's basically roughly, I think, a 42 -hour work

00:39:23.929 --> 00:39:26.010
week, if I'm not mistaken. I keep hearing different

00:39:26.010 --> 00:39:28.050
numbers from different people. But they were

00:39:28.050 --> 00:39:30.690
doing 10s and 14s, if I'm not mistaken. So they

00:39:30.690 --> 00:39:32.869
weren't doing a 56 -hour week, I don't think,

00:39:32.869 --> 00:39:35.210
in New York City, even when they were burning.

00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:40.380
All right. Well, I'll shift from there before

00:39:40.380 --> 00:39:43.840
we get too stuck in sleep deprivation. It's important

00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:46.760
because it is it's not it's destroying mental

00:39:46.760 --> 00:39:48.599
health. It is destroying physical health. It

00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:52.199
is like one that is unequivocally inarguable.

00:39:52.199 --> 00:39:53.920
It is destroying firefighters, physical health

00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:56.800
and mental health. I did. I think it was since

00:39:56.800 --> 00:39:59.840
we spoke. I probably maybe it was our conversation

00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:01.480
that kind of got this turning in my head again.

00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:04.039
But I don't know if I talked about this in our

00:40:04.039 --> 00:40:07.380
interview. I was sitting in the morning having

00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:09.380
a cup of coffee with my wife and I don't know

00:40:09.380 --> 00:40:10.880
what made me think about it, but I've talked

00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:12.820
about, you know, if it's three days on one day

00:40:12.820 --> 00:40:16.000
off and it's 30 days a month. So I was like,

00:40:16.119 --> 00:40:18.340
well, let me let me just do a quick math of what

00:40:18.340 --> 00:40:22.000
a 40 hour person works as far as days per year.

00:40:22.460 --> 00:40:26.579
So I did, you know, 40 divided by 52 and it was

00:40:26.579 --> 00:40:30.989
260. I think I've got the math wrong. Anyway,

00:40:31.030 --> 00:40:33.590
it was 260 days that a civilian works because

00:40:33.590 --> 00:40:36.429
obviously you're factoring weekends. So 260 calendar

00:40:36.429 --> 00:40:39.730
days a civilian is at work. When I put in a 56

00:40:39.730 --> 00:40:41.909
-hour work week for a firefighter, not including

00:40:41.909 --> 00:40:46.070
obviously mandatory overtime, it was 364 days

00:40:46.070 --> 00:40:48.809
a year. That's insane. Which means that you've

00:40:48.809 --> 00:40:50.849
accumulated a day off if you work the full year.

00:40:51.420 --> 00:40:53.380
So this is the thing. When you actually look

00:40:53.380 --> 00:40:56.099
at the numbers, it debunks all the myths that

00:40:56.099 --> 00:40:58.179
you and I both believe when we were young. Amazing

00:40:58.179 --> 00:41:00.800
schedule, only work 10 days a month. And then

00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:02.599
you wonder why we're dropping like flies and

00:41:02.599 --> 00:41:05.300
you do an analysis and you're like, ah, it may

00:41:05.300 --> 00:41:08.500
be, just maybe it's this. So I think it's exciting

00:41:08.500 --> 00:41:11.119
because now we're at an opportunity where you

00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:13.159
have to look at it and we have to make change.

00:41:13.340 --> 00:41:15.929
So I hope that this does become a... you know,

00:41:15.929 --> 00:41:18.610
a national movement to make a professional standard,

00:41:18.710 --> 00:41:21.889
you know, a 24 72 or 42 hour work week. Brother.

00:41:21.989 --> 00:41:25.130
I think it's a phenomenal, phenomenal. I can't,

00:41:25.130 --> 00:41:28.929
I can't speak, but yes, I'm all for it. All right.

00:41:28.929 --> 00:41:30.409
Well, let's get back to your journey into the

00:41:30.409 --> 00:41:33.989
fire service. So talk to me about the front door

00:41:33.989 --> 00:41:36.889
for you. What was like the expectations as far

00:41:36.889 --> 00:41:40.869
as fitness? Um, and then how well did your upbringing

00:41:40.869 --> 00:41:45.159
serve you as a probationary firefighter? My journey

00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:46.860
is unique. Of course, everybody's journey is

00:41:46.860 --> 00:41:50.880
unique. But I was not, I was not, I'll be honest

00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:52.679
with you, I probably should have been terminated

00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:55.119
during my probationary year. That's the truth.

00:41:55.260 --> 00:41:57.920
That is the God's honest truth. I was very young.

00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:00.519
I was immature. I did not appreciate the job.

00:42:00.860 --> 00:42:03.800
And the one saving grace for me was the shift

00:42:03.800 --> 00:42:08.019
I got assigned to. The shift commander was having

00:42:08.019 --> 00:42:12.320
health issues. So he was on light duty. Or actually,

00:42:12.340 --> 00:42:15.199
he was on administrative leave while he was going

00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:17.960
to see if he could return to active duty. And

00:42:17.960 --> 00:42:20.699
the second in command had torn up his shoulder

00:42:20.699 --> 00:42:23.019
and he was off getting surgery. So he was on

00:42:23.019 --> 00:42:26.719
medical leave. So the top two people that could

00:42:26.719 --> 00:42:28.340
have made the determination, hey, let's get rid

00:42:28.340 --> 00:42:31.380
of this kid while he's while it's they were gone.

00:42:31.500 --> 00:42:35.239
And so I skated through. I skated through. Luckily,

00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:40.659
knock on wood, I skated through. And I was able

00:42:40.659 --> 00:42:43.099
to mature and grow up in the fire service. And

00:42:43.099 --> 00:42:45.840
I had a lot of a lot of mentors that invested

00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:49.179
in me and made that happen. And so but no, I

00:42:49.179 --> 00:42:51.920
did not appreciate the job. I did not. I was

00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:53.460
young and fit. I loved it. Don't get me wrong.

00:42:53.539 --> 00:42:55.960
I know. I want to be clear. I always loved being

00:42:55.960 --> 00:42:58.739
a firefighter. I love going to fires. I love

00:42:58.739 --> 00:43:02.719
being on on the hose line. There was nothing

00:43:02.719 --> 00:43:05.900
like adrenaline, all of that, even bad EMS calls.

00:43:06.019 --> 00:43:10.659
I love the bad EMS calls and a good cardiac arrest.

00:43:12.039 --> 00:43:14.300
I can say good cardiac arrest. You know what

00:43:14.300 --> 00:43:16.699
I mean. Yeah. You want to be there to mitigate

00:43:16.699 --> 00:43:19.440
the problem. Absolutely. And I loved it, but

00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:22.019
I did not appreciate it. I did not have the passion

00:43:22.019 --> 00:43:23.960
for understanding how. And that's part of my

00:43:23.960 --> 00:43:28.119
journey in the fact of why I am so adamant about.

00:43:28.919 --> 00:43:30.960
the never ending fight against complacency, you

00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:32.800
know, the byline of firehouse vigilance is because

00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:34.860
complacency doesn't give a shit who you are.

00:43:35.059 --> 00:43:36.760
It'll sneak up. It'll grab you. It'll put its

00:43:36.760 --> 00:43:39.300
tentacles in you. And when I hired on, we had

00:43:39.300 --> 00:43:40.760
a very complacent department. I'll say that,

00:43:40.820 --> 00:43:43.179
you know, and, and when I say that, I don't mean

00:43:43.179 --> 00:43:44.860
that as a disrespect to the men and women that,

00:43:44.860 --> 00:43:47.960
that worked there at the time because they fought

00:43:47.960 --> 00:43:50.019
a very different battle. They were fighting for

00:43:50.019 --> 00:43:55.409
decent pay. I mean, I. The pay was so terrible,

00:43:55.610 --> 00:43:58.190
like so terrible for everybody but me. I got

00:43:58.190 --> 00:44:00.690
a raise when I hired on there. But I think my

00:44:00.690 --> 00:44:03.769
first year I made in 1997, I made $13 ,000 was

00:44:03.769 --> 00:44:06.730
my probationary year. And at six months, I went

00:44:06.730 --> 00:44:10.269
to $16 ,000. And I was like, I was in high cotton

00:44:10.269 --> 00:44:15.369
because that's how bad my jobs were before. And

00:44:15.369 --> 00:44:17.110
then when I actually made my year, I went to

00:44:17.110 --> 00:44:19.969
$27 ,000, which was, I mean, it was like, holy

00:44:19.969 --> 00:44:25.489
smokes, I'm rich. And so. But I try to remember

00:44:25.489 --> 00:44:27.590
where the question was before I lost my train

00:44:27.590 --> 00:44:30.349
of thought. My journey early. I loved it, but

00:44:30.349 --> 00:44:32.769
I did not appreciate it. Well, let's talk about

00:44:32.769 --> 00:44:36.449
that first from an age point of view. If we went

00:44:36.449 --> 00:44:39.610
back to that highly competitive environment where,

00:44:39.710 --> 00:44:42.170
and this is exciting, I shared an article a while

00:44:42.170 --> 00:44:44.949
ago from the New York Times, this young generation,

00:44:45.210 --> 00:44:48.570
Gen Z, are coming into the trades because the

00:44:48.570 --> 00:44:50.510
same way that they look at the fire service at

00:44:50.510 --> 00:44:52.800
the moment, and just as you said, That looks

00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:55.340
a bit shit. Divorces, cancer, suicides, et cetera.

00:44:55.460 --> 00:44:58.139
We can fix that. I mean, we need to anyway for

00:44:58.139 --> 00:44:59.980
our own people that we're burying. We just had

00:44:59.980 --> 00:45:02.820
two suicides here in Florida this last week near

00:45:02.820 --> 00:45:06.760
where I live. But they're also looking at higher

00:45:06.760 --> 00:45:08.679
education and going, well, that also looks shit.

00:45:09.119 --> 00:45:11.019
Tens of thousands of dollars of student debt

00:45:11.019 --> 00:45:12.960
and I got a piece of paper that may not guarantee

00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:15.719
me a job. Any sort of job worth, yeah. Yeah,

00:45:15.739 --> 00:45:18.159
so I think this exciting time to actually attract

00:45:18.159 --> 00:45:20.929
these young people into our professions. That

00:45:20.929 --> 00:45:22.750
being said, though, the number of people I've

00:45:22.750 --> 00:45:26.030
spoken to as far as the mental capacity and readiness

00:45:26.030 --> 00:45:29.389
for a young person to be in fire, police, EMS,

00:45:29.670 --> 00:45:33.289
the fire service, we allow young people to come

00:45:33.289 --> 00:45:36.750
in so, so young. When you look back now, this

00:45:36.750 --> 00:45:40.630
mature lens, I'm thinking about 21, just like

00:45:40.630 --> 00:45:43.190
law enforcement, as far as if we actually had

00:45:43.190 --> 00:45:45.849
a super competitive environment, we could really

00:45:45.849 --> 00:45:48.489
could tell them, right, hold the line, get some

00:45:48.489 --> 00:45:51.429
life experience and then come. What is your kind

00:45:51.429 --> 00:45:54.570
of perspective on an older starting age for the

00:45:54.570 --> 00:45:57.550
fire service? I don't see a downside. I don't.

00:45:57.550 --> 00:46:01.809
You know, I went through counseling. We have

00:46:01.809 --> 00:46:04.530
a Moore Fire Department has been, City of Moore

00:46:04.530 --> 00:46:06.630
has been amazing on being on the forefront. They

00:46:06.630 --> 00:46:08.969
actually hired a liaison for mental health and

00:46:08.969 --> 00:46:11.849
she's been amazing. And I got to utilize her

00:46:11.849 --> 00:46:14.010
services and it really helped me out. And I'll

00:46:14.010 --> 00:46:18.619
shout her. From the mountaintops, Tanya absolutely

00:46:18.619 --> 00:46:22.059
changed my, my life with her EMDR and all the

00:46:22.059 --> 00:46:25.300
stuff that, but, but talking to her, you know,

00:46:25.300 --> 00:46:28.260
and she says, well, specifically males, you know,

00:46:28.260 --> 00:46:29.880
their brains aren't fully developed until they're

00:46:29.880 --> 00:46:32.500
25, you know, and they're still, their brain

00:46:32.500 --> 00:46:34.639
is still developing. It's crazy. And then we

00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:39.260
subject them to some horrific, I'm not just talking

00:46:39.260 --> 00:46:43.179
like trauma, like physical seeing. gunshot wounds

00:46:43.179 --> 00:46:45.820
and broken femurs and and compound fractures

00:46:45.820 --> 00:46:48.019
i'm not talking about just the the sheer mechanism

00:46:48.019 --> 00:46:52.239
of injury traumas i'm talking like terrible situations

00:46:52.239 --> 00:46:56.559
of psychological abuse that you see you know

00:46:56.559 --> 00:46:59.019
when you're dealing with with uh you know drugs

00:46:59.019 --> 00:47:02.500
and and family situations and domestic situations

00:47:02.500 --> 00:47:07.239
and and i think that is so so so traumatic especially

00:47:07.239 --> 00:47:11.940
so i'm i'm a proponent um I do. I think there's

00:47:11.940 --> 00:47:13.420
exceptions that could probably handle it. Yes.

00:47:13.440 --> 00:47:15.059
But I think as a whole, I think it would be I

00:47:15.059 --> 00:47:16.539
think it would be a net positive for the fire

00:47:16.539 --> 00:47:19.579
service without a doubt. Absolutely. Yeah. And

00:47:19.579 --> 00:47:21.300
also what what you've done in your department

00:47:21.300 --> 00:47:23.739
is phenomenal. I think that's also a gold standard

00:47:23.739 --> 00:47:26.519
is if you have and I get that, you know, depends

00:47:26.519 --> 00:47:28.360
on the size of department. But if you can have

00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:31.099
a network like like I said, Anaheim did and I

00:47:31.099 --> 00:47:32.860
will be big enough to have their own. But if

00:47:32.860 --> 00:47:34.460
you're a smaller department and work with other

00:47:34.460 --> 00:47:37.820
ones, but having that person on staff removes

00:47:37.820 --> 00:47:41.199
those barriers to entry because. places, a number

00:47:41.199 --> 00:47:43.320
of stories I've heard where someone is willing

00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:45.519
to go, but either there's no one that's culturally

00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:48.460
competent or, you know, they can't see you for

00:47:48.460 --> 00:47:51.239
six months and you're in crisis or they can see

00:47:51.239 --> 00:47:54.219
you and it's $150 per visit, you know, and as

00:47:54.219 --> 00:47:56.179
you mentioned earlier, we're not exactly in this

00:47:56.179 --> 00:47:59.159
for the wealth. So having that person on staff

00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:01.900
really seems to be one of the other answers to

00:48:01.900 --> 00:48:04.019
this whole crisis. No, and it's been amazing.

00:48:04.119 --> 00:48:06.539
She works for all first responders. She works

00:48:06.539 --> 00:48:08.960
for the entire city. She'll do anything. But

00:48:08.960 --> 00:48:10.840
specifically, she was hired for first responders,

00:48:10.960 --> 00:48:13.860
our police and our fire. And it's amazing. They

00:48:13.860 --> 00:48:16.960
gave her an office that is away from the public

00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:19.260
eye. So if you wanted to go and be incognito,

00:48:19.300 --> 00:48:21.179
you absolutely could set up an appointment. And

00:48:21.179 --> 00:48:24.280
it was in a doctor's office that's unassociated

00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:25.579
with the city. So you could just show up and

00:48:25.579 --> 00:48:27.679
set up an appointment with her completely on

00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:29.780
the down low and do it. And then somebody that

00:48:29.780 --> 00:48:32.199
was on my show, I wish I could give him credit.

00:48:32.969 --> 00:48:34.929
but they were a fire chief at their department.

00:48:34.989 --> 00:48:36.690
And what they did was they put their counseling

00:48:36.690 --> 00:48:39.130
on their, their, their schedule, their calendar.

00:48:39.510 --> 00:48:41.369
So that, you know, when people looked at the

00:48:41.369 --> 00:48:43.269
calendar, what the chief had going on, they would

00:48:43.269 --> 00:48:45.190
look and see, he had his mental health counseling

00:48:45.190 --> 00:48:48.130
and it was on. And so for me, a big thing for

00:48:48.130 --> 00:48:51.289
me was I had Tanya come to my office and do her

00:48:51.289 --> 00:48:53.030
counseling in my office where everybody could

00:48:53.030 --> 00:48:55.010
see it because I wanted to make it a big deal.

00:48:55.050 --> 00:48:57.070
And I learned it from that person. I wanted to

00:48:57.070 --> 00:48:59.849
make it okay. And a big deal to, Hey, if the

00:48:59.849 --> 00:49:03.599
chief is doing it, everybody can do it. And hopefully

00:49:03.599 --> 00:49:08.199
that made a difference. And so anyway, if anybody

00:49:08.199 --> 00:49:10.780
listening to this, man, beat the drum to bring

00:49:10.780 --> 00:49:13.039
in a professional that is available to your people.

00:49:14.099 --> 00:49:16.360
100%. Yeah, the other side of the coin is the

00:49:16.360 --> 00:49:18.940
AAP. And there are some good AAPs where they've

00:49:18.940 --> 00:49:22.380
tailored it to make sure that everyone on there

00:49:22.380 --> 00:49:25.159
is a culturally competent clinician that works

00:49:25.159 --> 00:49:27.920
with us. But the number of stories I've heard

00:49:27.920 --> 00:49:30.099
where, you know, the person was in tears, a person

00:49:30.099 --> 00:49:32.280
told him to get out, they can't help them. And

00:49:32.280 --> 00:49:36.000
I just I've said this many times. If I've heard

00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:38.559
those stories, how many of those stories will

00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:40.519
I never hear? Because that was the responders

00:49:40.519 --> 00:49:43.139
last attempt. And after being sent out of the

00:49:43.139 --> 00:49:45.260
office, they just went and finished it. Yeah,

00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:48.699
no, without a doubt. If that's all you got, that's

00:49:48.699 --> 00:49:51.019
all you got. I'm not a fan. I think bureaucracies

00:49:51.019 --> 00:49:53.820
fail more than they succeed. And I feel like

00:49:53.820 --> 00:49:55.739
most of the EAPs are lost in bureaucracy. And

00:49:55.739 --> 00:49:57.519
that's a broad brush, and I get it. I'm sure

00:49:57.519 --> 00:50:00.280
there's exceptions to that. But if it's all you

00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:01.679
got, it's all you got. Take advantage of it.

00:50:01.760 --> 00:50:05.000
But, man, I really want to say, if you can, push

00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:07.400
to get a professional in there to be nothing

00:50:07.400 --> 00:50:09.699
but that for your city. It's a person, first

00:50:09.699 --> 00:50:11.719
of all. And a person is so much better than a

00:50:11.719 --> 00:50:15.849
program. 100%. Well, you mentioned entering a

00:50:15.849 --> 00:50:17.690
complacent department. And again, understanding

00:50:17.690 --> 00:50:22.070
why you're using those terms. What were the dangers

00:50:22.070 --> 00:50:25.690
of that complacency? What was the ripple effect

00:50:25.690 --> 00:50:28.429
of what could have happened? And then what were

00:50:28.429 --> 00:50:31.269
some of the things that started to change to

00:50:31.269 --> 00:50:34.639
create a different culture? Well, first of all,

00:50:34.659 --> 00:50:36.219
when I say it, I want to say it with the most

00:50:36.219 --> 00:50:38.219
respect I can for the people, men and women that

00:50:38.219 --> 00:50:39.500
built a more fire department in front of me.

00:50:39.519 --> 00:50:40.719
The most respect I can give them because their

00:50:40.719 --> 00:50:43.280
battles were to bring in rigs that actually started

00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:45.079
when you push the button. You know, they brought

00:50:45.079 --> 00:50:48.800
in buildings of fire stations that weren't falling

00:50:48.800 --> 00:50:50.960
apart and filled with mold and et cetera. They

00:50:50.960 --> 00:50:53.079
fought to get pay that was competitive so that

00:50:53.079 --> 00:50:54.340
people weren't just coming there and leaving.

00:50:54.579 --> 00:50:57.659
They fought a lot of battles. So when I say complacent,

00:50:57.659 --> 00:51:01.159
they weren't lazy. When I say complacent, I'm

00:51:01.159 --> 00:51:03.820
talking about the... when you're, when it's talking

00:51:03.820 --> 00:51:05.500
about training and how important training is

00:51:05.500 --> 00:51:07.760
and staying relevant and, and cause that was

00:51:07.760 --> 00:51:09.840
not a high priority. And, and part of it was,

00:51:09.860 --> 00:51:12.619
this was the nineties. You know, Andrew Fredericks

00:51:12.619 --> 00:51:15.960
was still, you know, he was still writing articles

00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:18.500
at this point, you know, and he had just done

00:51:18.500 --> 00:51:21.380
his, don't worry about that nozzle kid keynote

00:51:21.380 --> 00:51:24.579
speech. We don't go to fires anymore. And so

00:51:24.579 --> 00:51:26.539
there was the, you know, the, the, the pendulum

00:51:26.539 --> 00:51:28.900
that is the fire service. It was way over on.

00:51:29.889 --> 00:51:32.190
I get paid the same, whether I go to a fire or

00:51:32.190 --> 00:51:34.369
not, you know, Hey, you know, don't worry about,

00:51:34.389 --> 00:51:36.550
you know, that, that, that sort of complacency

00:51:36.550 --> 00:51:38.469
training when I hired on training didn't exist.

00:51:38.610 --> 00:51:41.590
In fact, I remember my battalion chief setting

00:51:41.590 --> 00:51:46.329
up cones in a, in a parking lot. And it was right

00:51:46.329 --> 00:51:49.110
when two in two out came and we did a walkthrough

00:51:49.110 --> 00:51:51.210
drill basically of, okay, here's a house fire.

00:51:51.269 --> 00:51:53.429
These cones are the house and we're going to,

00:51:53.429 --> 00:51:55.210
here's the first do rig. And this is what you're

00:51:55.210 --> 00:51:56.690
going to do. And this is the second do rig. And

00:51:56.690 --> 00:51:59.199
this was when I had like one year on. And I remember

00:51:59.199 --> 00:52:02.760
that drill was the basis for all of my tactics

00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:05.179
for like the next 10 years. That one drill we

00:52:05.179 --> 00:52:07.400
did that one day was the basis for all my tactics

00:52:07.400 --> 00:52:09.340
for the next 10 years, because that was the training

00:52:09.340 --> 00:52:13.400
that we did. And it wasn't a, it wasn't part

00:52:13.400 --> 00:52:15.679
of the culture. And so, but again, that's a growth

00:52:15.679 --> 00:52:17.519
thing because their fight had been a separate

00:52:17.519 --> 00:52:19.619
fight. So I don't, I hope it doesn't come across

00:52:19.619 --> 00:52:23.880
that I'm bashing them. I'm not. And so it's just

00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:26.440
like. A generation is going to come after me.

00:52:26.519 --> 00:52:28.840
I'm staring down the barrel of retirement in

00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:31.920
the next few years. But a generation is going

00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:33.280
to come after me, and they're going to talk about

00:52:33.280 --> 00:52:35.679
the things that I did and the fights that I fought.

00:52:35.780 --> 00:52:36.960
And I'm going to be offended by what they say

00:52:36.960 --> 00:52:38.300
because they're fighting a different battle than

00:52:38.300 --> 00:52:41.480
me. And so I hope that it comes across when I

00:52:41.480 --> 00:52:46.039
say that. The change that we fought in our generation

00:52:46.039 --> 00:52:48.139
was to bring in training, making it more important.

00:52:48.500 --> 00:52:51.579
Readiness, a culture of readiness and taking

00:52:51.579 --> 00:52:54.500
it serious. And that's not even the right words,

00:52:54.539 --> 00:52:58.300
but it kind of captures the essence. It's interesting

00:52:58.300 --> 00:53:02.940
because this year now, my messaging is really

00:53:02.940 --> 00:53:06.500
to find courage to advocate for your own health,

00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:08.840
advocate for your family, your relationships.

00:53:09.139 --> 00:53:11.260
And as I've said many times, I think I'm sure

00:53:11.260 --> 00:53:14.000
in your interview too, Even the health of our

00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:17.219
children, we pass on disease through the working

00:53:17.219 --> 00:53:18.840
conditions at the moment. We have a much higher

00:53:18.840 --> 00:53:21.860
prevalence of autism, Down syndrome, pediatric

00:53:21.860 --> 00:53:26.340
cancers. So looking back at our generation, the

00:53:26.340 --> 00:53:28.500
next one are probably going to call us complacent

00:53:28.500 --> 00:53:31.320
for not fighting for that. Right. For the actual

00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:33.920
environment. Yeah. But to forge performance,

00:53:34.159 --> 00:53:36.780
to forge longevity. So that's where I think we'll

00:53:36.780 --> 00:53:40.880
be criticized. Sure. No. And earned, absolutely

00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:45.280
deserved. And that's why I want to say I have

00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:46.880
nothing but respect for the people that built

00:53:46.880 --> 00:53:49.639
the department that I'm proud to call. And I

00:53:49.639 --> 00:53:51.760
hope someone in the next generation will say,

00:53:51.840 --> 00:53:53.360
hey, I have nothing but respect for Corley and

00:53:53.360 --> 00:53:56.260
what he did here. But this is where he fell short.

00:53:56.340 --> 00:53:59.059
And this is what I'm going to carry on. So what

00:53:59.059 --> 00:54:01.380
started to change in your department from that

00:54:01.380 --> 00:54:05.179
kind of just put your gear on the rig and do

00:54:05.179 --> 00:54:07.159
your 24 hours and get your paycheck mentality

00:54:07.159 --> 00:54:10.880
to actually. Training for the what ifs, which

00:54:10.880 --> 00:54:12.420
I think is really what it's about, isn't it?

00:54:12.420 --> 00:54:14.920
We don't have a high frequency of fires in modern

00:54:14.920 --> 00:54:17.579
society, but God forbid we have that shooting,

00:54:17.659 --> 00:54:20.260
that fire, that car hanging half off a bridge.

00:54:20.460 --> 00:54:23.219
Now your entire career's worth of training is

00:54:23.219 --> 00:54:26.179
resting on that one call. I think it was a mindset

00:54:26.179 --> 00:54:29.539
of going from that'll never happen here, kind

00:54:29.539 --> 00:54:36.579
of being the unsaid motif to over time becoming

00:54:36.579 --> 00:54:39.849
what if that happens here. And it's just the

00:54:39.849 --> 00:54:42.329
mindset shift. And it wasn't one thing. It wasn't,

00:54:42.329 --> 00:54:44.789
you know, I mean, not more. If you know where

00:54:44.789 --> 00:54:48.110
more is at in the country, one thing we are very

00:54:48.110 --> 00:54:50.530
good at is getting leveled by tornadoes. We've

00:54:50.530 --> 00:54:53.690
had two F5 tornadoes come through and one F4.

00:54:53.869 --> 00:54:56.489
And I think we're one of the only, you know,

00:54:56.489 --> 00:54:59.550
cities that can brag about that, if you want

00:54:59.550 --> 00:55:02.610
to call it that term. So it's not like we haven't

00:55:02.610 --> 00:55:06.550
had our share of disaster. But I think it is

00:55:06.550 --> 00:55:11.250
that. I think Dandridge Malone wrote the book

00:55:11.250 --> 00:55:13.550
Small Unit Leadership, and he wrote it in the

00:55:13.550 --> 00:55:18.369
1980s. And his mantra in the book was, I'm trying

00:55:18.369 --> 00:55:23.889
to keep men combat ready in an era where there's

00:55:23.889 --> 00:55:27.070
been no combat for over 15 years. There was Granada

00:55:27.070 --> 00:55:31.110
and small skirmishes, but there was no war. And

00:55:31.110 --> 00:55:33.369
how do you do that? And his answer was training,

00:55:33.469 --> 00:55:35.289
training, plain and simple. And it's kind of

00:55:35.289 --> 00:55:38.079
that mindset is. What's the purpose? What are

00:55:38.079 --> 00:55:39.539
you training for? Why are you throwing a ladder?

00:55:39.880 --> 00:55:41.320
You know, don't you know how to throw a ladder?

00:55:41.579 --> 00:55:42.980
Why are you stretching the pre -connect? Don't

00:55:42.980 --> 00:55:44.780
you know how to do that? And, and the whole thing

00:55:44.780 --> 00:55:47.559
is, is it's a mindset of, no, I'm going to be

00:55:47.559 --> 00:55:49.199
so good at it that I don't have to think about

00:55:49.199 --> 00:55:51.059
it day up when it, when it finally comes, I'm

00:55:51.059 --> 00:55:52.980
going to be so good at it. And, and it was just,

00:55:53.019 --> 00:55:55.239
I would love to take credit for it. It's not,

00:55:55.300 --> 00:55:58.780
it was a cultural shift. There was a lot of pieces

00:55:58.780 --> 00:56:02.079
that moved and yeah. And we're in a lot better

00:56:02.079 --> 00:56:04.739
place than we used to be in regards to that issue.

00:56:06.170 --> 00:56:08.030
It's funny because you wouldn't ask a batsman,

00:56:08.070 --> 00:56:11.190
why do you spend so many times in the cage? Right.

00:56:11.409 --> 00:56:14.989
No, exactly. Exactly. No, that's a great. I've

00:56:14.989 --> 00:56:18.190
never even made that analogy, but that's a beautiful

00:56:18.190 --> 00:56:22.329
analogy. I was criticized once for taking VMR

00:56:22.329 --> 00:56:24.590
twice quite close to each other. And they're

00:56:24.590 --> 00:56:25.789
like, well, you've already got that. Why are

00:56:25.789 --> 00:56:27.269
you taking that again? It's like, well, because

00:56:27.269 --> 00:56:29.650
I want more tool time because I don't want to

00:56:29.650 --> 00:56:32.880
panic. When we get that awful extrication where

00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:35.679
you might have to tunnel or clamshell or some

00:56:35.679 --> 00:56:38.480
of these more advanced techniques. And you get

00:56:38.480 --> 00:56:41.380
so much tool time in these tech classes that

00:56:41.380 --> 00:56:43.840
I never gave up the tool. But in your mind, I'm

00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:45.079
like, I think I'm actually ready to give this

00:56:45.079 --> 00:56:46.940
to someone, which you never, ever get on a real

00:56:46.940 --> 00:56:50.250
scene. So, yeah, repetition is key. Absolutely.

00:56:50.570 --> 00:56:52.989
And especially with my leaky brain, because I

00:56:52.989 --> 00:56:54.650
have a leaky brain. I mean, plain and simple.

00:56:54.750 --> 00:56:57.690
Yeah, I can read a book four or five times. And

00:56:57.690 --> 00:56:59.969
it's like I tell my friends all the time, it's

00:56:59.969 --> 00:57:01.269
great to be my friend because you can tell me

00:57:01.269 --> 00:57:03.489
a story, you know, and I won't remember you told

00:57:03.489 --> 00:57:05.230
me the story and I'll laugh at the same punchlines.

00:57:05.909 --> 00:57:07.630
I tell them you can tell me a secret because

00:57:07.630 --> 00:57:09.130
I'll forget it. I'm not going to tell anyone.

00:57:11.630 --> 00:57:14.050
Well, then while we're on the performance kind

00:57:14.050 --> 00:57:17.369
of switch now, talk to me about your own personal

00:57:17.369 --> 00:57:21.079
perspective of fitness standards. For me, when

00:57:21.079 --> 00:57:24.019
I talk to the special operations community, the

00:57:24.019 --> 00:57:28.579
ocean lifeguards, other tactical athletes that

00:57:28.579 --> 00:57:31.519
lives are in their hands, they're always blown

00:57:31.519 --> 00:57:34.179
away that police and fire don't have a punitive

00:57:34.179 --> 00:57:37.079
fitness standard. And when you look at what we

00:57:37.079 --> 00:57:39.099
had to go through, the crucible that is Fire

00:57:39.099 --> 00:57:41.760
Academy, there are fitness standards at the front

00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:44.219
door. And so when, again, calling out the kind

00:57:44.219 --> 00:57:47.730
of cowardice. that came out of cowardice if you

00:57:47.730 --> 00:57:50.289
if you fight against fitness standards in this

00:57:50.289 --> 00:57:52.989
profession that's because you're scared of putting

00:57:52.989 --> 00:57:55.349
in the work to stay fit don't get me wrong we

00:57:55.349 --> 00:57:57.130
got to fix the working environment too because

00:57:57.130 --> 00:58:00.409
that does not forge elite fitness either but

00:58:00.409 --> 00:58:03.250
you know we have a profession where things are

00:58:03.250 --> 00:58:05.269
heavy it's hot it's tight you're hanging off

00:58:05.269 --> 00:58:07.409
the side of a building you're climbing you know

00:58:07.409 --> 00:58:10.130
10 15 20 flights of stairs with 100 pounds of

00:58:10.130 --> 00:58:14.840
gear so With this kind of lens, with you seeing

00:58:14.840 --> 00:58:17.079
that kind of anti -training mentality through

00:58:17.079 --> 00:58:19.360
to where you are now, what is your perspective

00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:22.099
of actual punitive fitness standards in this

00:58:22.099 --> 00:58:26.099
profession? Man, very multifaceted. Lots of levers

00:58:26.099 --> 00:58:30.900
to pull to make a difference. I think we absolutely

00:58:30.900 --> 00:58:33.139
should have a professional fitness standard.

00:58:33.340 --> 00:58:35.579
Now, the obstacles to overcome to get that there,

00:58:35.699 --> 00:58:39.039
especially in the – I can't even touch on the

00:58:39.039 --> 00:58:41.469
volunteer side of things. But on the professional

00:58:41.469 --> 00:58:43.889
side of things, and please understand, when I

00:58:43.889 --> 00:58:45.389
use the word professional, I mean paid. It's

00:58:45.389 --> 00:58:46.690
probably what I should say. On the paid side

00:58:46.690 --> 00:58:50.030
of things, I think there absolutely should be

00:58:50.030 --> 00:58:53.070
a professional fitness standard. And you touched

00:58:53.070 --> 00:58:57.489
on some of the facets of that issue, the sleep

00:58:57.489 --> 00:59:02.960
schedule. And I don't want to just put it on

00:59:02.960 --> 00:59:05.659
the union, but the unions will stand absolutely

00:59:05.659 --> 00:59:07.639
in the way and say, no, we're not going to have

00:59:07.639 --> 00:59:09.000
a fitness standard where you can take us off.

00:59:09.179 --> 00:59:12.639
And I don't have a good answer for it other than

00:59:12.639 --> 00:59:18.639
it is unequivocally inarguable that the more

00:59:18.639 --> 00:59:20.559
fit you are, the better you will do at this job.

00:59:20.940 --> 00:59:25.039
That is inarguable. And I don't care. We've all

00:59:25.039 --> 00:59:27.880
seen the Facebook post where it's some slobbing.

00:59:28.400 --> 00:59:31.360
out of shape firefighter. And, and someone down

00:59:31.360 --> 00:59:32.880
there will say, yeah, but he'll outwork any of

00:59:32.880 --> 00:59:35.079
those young CrossFit guys. He'll work them into

00:59:35.079 --> 00:59:37.219
the ground, blah, blah, blah. And, and, and I

00:59:37.219 --> 00:59:39.719
have no doubt that he can, he can bring it for

00:59:39.719 --> 00:59:43.099
whatever, but it won't be as good as if he was

00:59:43.099 --> 00:59:46.079
in shape, that person. And, and there's, it's,

00:59:46.159 --> 00:59:50.900
it's not even an argument. And so another thing

00:59:50.900 --> 00:59:52.820
is there's a lot of people that say it, but there

00:59:52.820 --> 00:59:55.039
is nothing that speaks professionalism more than

00:59:55.039 --> 00:59:56.960
physical fitness, your physical presentation.

00:59:59.709 --> 01:00:01.989
speaks volumes about you just when you walk in

01:00:01.989 --> 01:00:05.349
a room and just the professionalism that it presents,

01:00:05.550 --> 01:00:07.809
you know, when you see a squared away person,

01:00:07.849 --> 01:00:09.550
I mean, you can look at the special forces, the

01:00:09.550 --> 01:00:11.550
special forces person walks in the room and if

01:00:11.550 --> 01:00:13.050
they're active, I'm not talking about retired,

01:00:13.170 --> 01:00:16.150
you know, or, but, and generally speaking, even

01:00:16.150 --> 01:00:17.869
when they're retired, you can still, but when

01:00:17.869 --> 01:00:20.010
they walk in the room, you, there is a presence

01:00:20.010 --> 01:00:22.789
about them and there's no denying that. And when

01:00:22.789 --> 01:00:25.909
you're talking about the public perception, when

01:00:25.909 --> 01:00:28.960
you come into an emergency situation, Again,

01:00:30.460 --> 01:00:32.860
it's inarguable that you are better if you are

01:00:32.860 --> 01:00:35.179
fit. Now, all that being said, I now write a

01:00:35.179 --> 01:00:38.559
desk and I'm now pushing 50 years old and the

01:00:38.559 --> 01:00:40.840
struggle has become real to keep that same level

01:00:40.840 --> 01:00:43.340
of fitness that I had when I was younger. It's

01:00:43.340 --> 01:00:47.920
twice the effort, half the results. But we absolutely

01:00:47.920 --> 01:00:50.780
need one. If we want to call ourselves professionals,

01:00:51.139 --> 01:00:53.559
we need to. And like you said, it's just like

01:00:53.559 --> 01:00:55.500
your batting analogy, your batting cage analogy.

01:00:56.919 --> 01:01:01.539
It's insane to think that we can't, that we shouldn't.

01:01:01.599 --> 01:01:03.340
It's insane to think we have one to get in the

01:01:03.340 --> 01:01:05.239
door, and then as soon as you're in the door,

01:01:05.300 --> 01:01:09.070
you throw it out the door. It's crazy. Well,

01:01:09.110 --> 01:01:11.269
the easiest way to decondition someone is just

01:01:11.269 --> 01:01:13.530
by removing the culture of fitness once you walk

01:01:13.530 --> 01:01:15.150
through the door, you know, because now you're

01:01:15.150 --> 01:01:17.929
asking someone who's 100 pounds overweight, who

01:01:17.929 --> 01:01:20.630
cardiovascular wise, you know, may have not challenged

01:01:20.630 --> 01:01:23.409
themselves for a long time to get back to where

01:01:23.409 --> 01:01:25.550
they need to be. And you're so far from it from

01:01:25.550 --> 01:01:27.329
that point. But if, you know, you've gone through

01:01:27.329 --> 01:01:30.530
the academy now, you know, arguably everyone

01:01:30.530 --> 01:01:32.389
should be in good shape. And you almost get this

01:01:32.389 --> 01:01:34.289
kind of romanticization like, oh, when I was

01:01:34.289 --> 01:01:36.210
in the academy, I was in great shape. I was in

01:01:36.210 --> 01:01:38.559
the academy. No one was dying. This is the real

01:01:38.559 --> 01:01:40.460
world. People are dying here and you're worse

01:01:40.460 --> 01:01:43.159
shape now. Like in Florida, we call our certification

01:01:43.159 --> 01:01:45.840
minimum standards. They've labeled it for you.

01:01:45.860 --> 01:01:47.880
This is as shit as you should ever be in your

01:01:47.880 --> 01:01:50.699
entire career. And so we've done such a huge

01:01:50.699 --> 01:01:52.260
disservice because it's not only performance.

01:01:52.619 --> 01:01:55.179
And I would argue that the guy that says, oh,

01:01:55.300 --> 01:01:57.619
he can outwork anyone. He's probably the one

01:01:57.619 --> 01:01:59.260
telling you because in his mind, he's still a

01:01:59.260 --> 01:02:01.840
fucking superhero. But the reality is put him

01:02:01.840 --> 01:02:04.059
to work in the heat. He probably is not going

01:02:04.059 --> 01:02:06.239
to perform very well. But the other thing is

01:02:06.239 --> 01:02:09.769
longevity. By fighting fitness standards, we've

01:02:09.769 --> 01:02:12.329
added nails into the coffin of all these first

01:02:12.329 --> 01:02:14.010
responders because suicide is, you know, through

01:02:14.010 --> 01:02:16.570
the roof. But the next two is cancer and heart

01:02:16.570 --> 01:02:19.190
disease. You know, now part of that is undoubtedly

01:02:19.190 --> 01:02:21.650
shift work and sleep deprivation, but it's also

01:02:21.650 --> 01:02:26.849
poor diet and without a doubt. No, we're killing

01:02:26.849 --> 01:02:29.289
ourselves with our forks and our. Yeah, absolutely.

01:02:29.750 --> 01:02:33.590
Our forks and our lifestyles and and killing

01:02:33.590 --> 01:02:35.710
ourselves also with suicide, which is, you know.

01:02:37.519 --> 01:02:40.860
Yeah, like you said, your whole mission is amazing.

01:02:41.159 --> 01:02:44.780
So all of that being said, I lost my train of

01:02:44.780 --> 01:02:47.780
thought completely on that. We were talking about

01:02:47.780 --> 01:02:50.480
fitness standards being punitive and creating

01:02:50.480 --> 01:02:53.699
a culture of fitness. Yeah, I lost it. I'm sorry.

01:02:53.780 --> 01:02:56.500
I'm sorry, James. It's gone. Poof. I think we

01:02:56.500 --> 01:02:57.940
kind of round that off anyway, because I mean,

01:02:57.960 --> 01:03:00.460
I agree. And I think that if you fix the work,

01:03:00.519 --> 01:03:03.119
if you create an environment for performance,

01:03:03.360 --> 01:03:04.960
and especially as we'll get into in a minute.

01:03:05.369 --> 01:03:07.429
We're talking about the ability to do a primary

01:03:07.429 --> 01:03:10.289
search and find someone that requires a high

01:03:10.289 --> 01:03:12.429
level of fitness. VES through a second floor

01:03:12.429 --> 01:03:14.550
window, you are not going to be able to perform

01:03:14.550 --> 01:03:16.570
that unless you actually have a high level of

01:03:16.570 --> 01:03:18.889
fitness. Without a doubt. And complacency is

01:03:18.889 --> 01:03:21.170
where I was going. Complacency. It doesn't care

01:03:21.170 --> 01:03:24.309
and it sneaks up. It's so insidious. It sneaks

01:03:24.309 --> 01:03:26.389
up. It has its fingers in you and in its tentacles.

01:03:26.570 --> 01:03:28.429
And then you look back and you go, how did I

01:03:28.429 --> 01:03:30.969
get here? How did I get here? And it is the lack

01:03:30.969 --> 01:03:35.880
of standards. It really, so. 100 percent. Well,

01:03:35.940 --> 01:03:38.420
then. So walk me through as you progress through

01:03:38.420 --> 01:03:41.219
your career. What about the leadership element?

01:03:41.559 --> 01:03:44.440
What were you seeing maybe in areas that were

01:03:44.440 --> 01:03:47.239
were there was a deficit that were devoid of

01:03:47.239 --> 01:03:49.760
leadership? And then what were you learning from

01:03:49.760 --> 01:03:51.719
the mentors, the real leaders in your department

01:03:51.719 --> 01:03:54.019
that you started kind of acquiring your own toolbox?

01:03:54.929 --> 01:03:58.130
Well, my department was all based on informal

01:03:58.130 --> 01:04:01.010
mentorship. There was no real professional development

01:04:01.010 --> 01:04:04.550
in an organizational setting. You learn from

01:04:04.550 --> 01:04:07.230
the person that you served under, and hopefully

01:04:07.230 --> 01:04:09.070
it was a good one. And if you didn't, then you

01:04:09.070 --> 01:04:10.690
learned all those things you weren't going to

01:04:10.690 --> 01:04:13.449
do. And I think that's the bulk of the American

01:04:13.449 --> 01:04:16.090
Fire Service probably is the way that, as I've

01:04:16.090 --> 01:04:17.690
traveled, I think that is kind of the bulk of

01:04:17.690 --> 01:04:20.730
the American, especially from over the course

01:04:20.730 --> 01:04:23.010
of my career. Now, over the last, I would say.

01:04:23.760 --> 01:04:26.500
10 to 5 years especially, but there's really

01:04:26.500 --> 01:04:28.940
been a shift towards officer development programs

01:04:28.940 --> 01:04:31.920
and leadership development programs and actual

01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:36.659
formal mentorship programs as opposed to just

01:04:36.659 --> 01:04:40.340
informal. And so for me personally, I was heavily

01:04:40.340 --> 01:04:42.500
invested in by one of the most natural leaders

01:04:42.500 --> 01:04:44.960
that I've ever had the pleasure to serve under,

01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:48.159
a man named Scott Lance. And he absolutely invested

01:04:48.159 --> 01:04:51.309
in me and taught me everything. My foundation

01:04:51.309 --> 01:04:54.150
for leadership was based on him. And I'll say

01:04:54.150 --> 01:04:56.610
that the foundation is this, is he was one of

01:04:56.610 --> 01:04:59.630
the most empathetic people I've ever met. And

01:04:59.630 --> 01:05:03.130
he's a gruff, rough, hard around the edges, had

01:05:03.130 --> 01:05:07.829
lived a hard life, grew up on the wrong side

01:05:07.829 --> 01:05:10.690
of the tracks, everything you could ever. But

01:05:10.690 --> 01:05:12.590
he was one of the most empathetic people you've

01:05:12.590 --> 01:05:15.710
ever met. And he could empathize with anyone

01:05:15.710 --> 01:05:18.860
and make you feel like. He could make a person

01:05:18.860 --> 01:05:22.300
feel heard in a single sitting. It was it was

01:05:22.300 --> 01:05:26.820
a unbelievable gift. What is your perception

01:05:26.820 --> 01:05:30.340
on empathy, compassion? I've talked about this

01:05:30.340 --> 01:05:32.960
quite a bit. If you think about what sends most

01:05:32.960 --> 01:05:35.519
of us into uniform, it is exactly that. It's,

01:05:35.519 --> 01:05:37.159
you know, wanting to make the world better, wanting

01:05:37.159 --> 01:05:38.559
to be there when someone's having their worst

01:05:38.559 --> 01:05:41.300
day. But a lot of our generation, I think you're

01:05:41.300 --> 01:05:43.579
a little bit younger than me, but we were raised

01:05:43.579 --> 01:05:46.139
on Stallone, Schwarzenegger, Robocop, you know,

01:05:46.139 --> 01:05:50.420
this kind of. facade fake stoicism um that you

01:05:50.420 --> 01:05:53.159
know men don't cry and you're stone -faced um

01:05:53.159 --> 01:05:56.579
and what i've seen in quite a lot of areas is

01:05:56.579 --> 01:05:59.559
especially with some of these young firefighters

01:05:59.559 --> 01:06:01.639
now because there is this huge gap and a lot

01:06:01.639 --> 01:06:03.320
of departments have you know guys that have been

01:06:03.320 --> 01:06:05.940
on five uh years or less like 50 of the department

01:06:05.940 --> 01:06:09.119
is almost like a parroting of the salty old guy

01:06:09.119 --> 01:06:11.900
the guy that now we know with this 2025 lens

01:06:11.900 --> 01:06:13.679
is probably hurting and needs to go see some

01:06:13.679 --> 01:06:18.239
counselor um but That becomes that kind of pissed

01:06:18.239 --> 01:06:23.300
off, you know, impatient, angry firefighter who

01:06:23.300 --> 01:06:25.059
may only have literally a couple of years on.

01:06:25.440 --> 01:06:28.539
And I feel like there's a loss of that compassion

01:06:28.539 --> 01:06:30.079
and empathy, that compassion fatigue, as they

01:06:30.079 --> 01:06:35.000
call it. Talk to me about what allowed this leader

01:06:35.000 --> 01:06:37.940
that you were being mentored under to maintain

01:06:37.940 --> 01:06:40.840
that compassion and empathy when certain, you

01:06:40.840 --> 01:06:43.599
know, salty, gruff old fucks are demonstrating

01:06:43.599 --> 01:06:48.590
that you just don't need to care anymore. Man,

01:06:48.690 --> 01:06:54.730
I think that you can't fake caring. You can't

01:06:54.730 --> 01:06:57.130
fake it. You either care or you don't care. And

01:06:57.130 --> 01:06:59.869
so you can be a salty old gruff fuck. But if

01:06:59.869 --> 01:07:02.949
you care, then it shines through. And Scott Lance

01:07:02.949 --> 01:07:05.170
was a salty old gruff fuck. I'll be honest with

01:07:05.170 --> 01:07:06.849
you. He was. He would motherfucker you with the

01:07:06.849 --> 01:07:11.570
best of them. And if he asked you a question

01:07:11.570 --> 01:07:14.829
and he smelled doubt, this was another one of

01:07:14.829 --> 01:07:17.440
his gifts. He might not know the answer to the

01:07:17.440 --> 01:07:18.760
question he just asked you, but if he smelled

01:07:18.760 --> 01:07:21.099
doubt, he would pounce. He would pounce like

01:07:21.099 --> 01:07:24.659
a like a like a gorilla spider, not a monkey

01:07:24.659 --> 01:07:26.760
spider, a gorilla spider. And he would he would.

01:07:26.900 --> 01:07:29.539
But it was always to make you better because

01:07:29.539 --> 01:07:32.760
you knew he cared. And so I don't know what kept

01:07:32.760 --> 01:07:35.900
him from becoming. And it's a great we could

01:07:35.900 --> 01:07:39.260
dive into. Why do some of them lose it? You know,

01:07:39.260 --> 01:07:41.219
I have a whole passion triangle theory that I

01:07:41.219 --> 01:07:43.079
that I you know, you have the calling, which

01:07:43.079 --> 01:07:46.289
is your heat. That is the empathy, the compassion,

01:07:46.369 --> 01:07:48.590
the wanting to help people. When young people

01:07:48.590 --> 01:07:51.869
come into the fire service, they are super plugged

01:07:51.869 --> 01:07:55.989
in to wanting to help people. They've seen the

01:07:55.989 --> 01:07:57.070
movies, they've seen Backdraft, they've seen

01:07:57.070 --> 01:07:59.269
Chicago Fire, and they want to help people. They

01:07:59.269 --> 01:08:00.829
want to make this difference, and it's a cool

01:08:00.829 --> 01:08:02.750
job. So they have the calling, and it's super

01:08:02.750 --> 01:08:05.889
high heat. And then the fuel is their willpower,

01:08:05.929 --> 01:08:08.050
their soul. So you've got your heat and your

01:08:08.050 --> 01:08:10.230
fuel, and you use that up. The cool part about

01:08:10.230 --> 01:08:13.329
the soul, the human will, is that it's not finite.

01:08:13.449 --> 01:08:15.610
It's not a reducing agent. It doesn't just get

01:08:15.610 --> 01:08:17.670
reduced and is gone. You can replenish it. And

01:08:17.670 --> 01:08:19.869
that's the good part of it. Now, the sad part

01:08:19.869 --> 01:08:22.710
is a lot of, you know, when you're a gruff old

01:08:22.710 --> 01:08:25.069
fuck that doesn't give a shit anymore, it's because

01:08:25.069 --> 01:08:26.510
you're a reducing agent. Your soul, your will

01:08:26.510 --> 01:08:31.350
has been worn down by the calls, the lack of

01:08:31.350 --> 01:08:35.949
support, the organizational toxicity. And that

01:08:35.949 --> 01:08:38.689
has reduced their soul, their will. They're out

01:08:38.689 --> 01:08:40.829
of fuel. They're a fuel -limited fire. No matter

01:08:40.829 --> 01:08:43.449
how high their heat is, and usually the heat

01:08:43.449 --> 01:08:45.010
is way diminished too, especially when you get

01:08:45.010 --> 01:08:47.350
a real burnout person. They've lost their connection

01:08:47.350 --> 01:08:50.229
to the calling. Their reducing agent is completely

01:08:50.229 --> 01:08:53.109
gone. And then so what's left is the third leg

01:08:53.109 --> 01:08:54.970
of the passion triangle, which is oxygen. It's

01:08:54.970 --> 01:08:58.069
air. And that is what I call others. And that's

01:08:58.069 --> 01:09:00.010
people with like -minded souls who feel the same

01:09:00.010 --> 01:09:03.489
way you feel. You don't always talk about a rookie

01:09:03.489 --> 01:09:05.489
coming in has a really high calling and they

01:09:05.489 --> 01:09:07.649
have a really high fuel. Right. And then you

01:09:07.649 --> 01:09:09.689
go and take that rookie and you put them a probationary

01:09:09.689 --> 01:09:12.010
person. You put them in a at a at a slow station

01:09:12.010 --> 01:09:14.869
with a burnout captain and you basically put

01:09:14.869 --> 01:09:16.390
them in a vent limited fire. You know, they're

01:09:16.390 --> 01:09:18.050
they're now vent limited. They're getting no

01:09:18.050 --> 01:09:20.489
oxygen. They're going to you're going to create

01:09:20.489 --> 01:09:23.930
a burnout firefighter by doing that. And so when

01:09:23.930 --> 01:09:25.170
you look at it through the lens of the three

01:09:25.170 --> 01:09:29.140
legs and say, why, why am I? Not burning right

01:09:29.140 --> 01:09:31.060
now. Why am I not passionate right now? You can

01:09:31.060 --> 01:09:33.140
say, well, my calling, I still feel the empathy

01:09:33.140 --> 01:09:37.079
and compassion and I, my fuel. And I feel like

01:09:37.079 --> 01:09:38.600
I still have something to give. I'm not burnt

01:09:38.600 --> 01:09:41.199
out and pissed off at every call I go on. So

01:09:41.199 --> 01:09:43.260
what, what's happening to me? And you can honestly

01:09:43.260 --> 01:09:45.180
look at it and say, holy shit, I'm bent limited.

01:09:45.340 --> 01:09:47.279
I'm not getting any oxygen. I need to talk to

01:09:47.279 --> 01:09:50.000
other people and that feel like me and, and not

01:09:50.000 --> 01:09:54.300
feel alone and be heard. And. I go in rabbit

01:09:54.300 --> 01:09:55.720
holes. I'm sorry. I'm not even sure if I'm answering

01:09:55.720 --> 01:09:57.939
the question, but the toxicity, the organizational

01:09:57.939 --> 01:10:00.819
toxicity can create those vent limited atmosphere

01:10:00.819 --> 01:10:04.659
so often. And I think that that's, you know,

01:10:04.659 --> 01:10:06.399
David Rhodes talked about it from the stage at

01:10:06.399 --> 01:10:08.300
FDIC a couple of years ago when he talked about,

01:10:08.359 --> 01:10:11.619
it's not the calls and he wasn't downplaying

01:10:11.619 --> 01:10:13.140
the calls when he said it, but he said, it's

01:10:13.140 --> 01:10:15.539
not the call so much that are, that is the so

01:10:15.539 --> 01:10:18.659
detrimental to people. It's the. lack of support

01:10:18.659 --> 01:10:20.460
from the leadership in the organizations that

01:10:20.460 --> 01:10:23.720
is absolutely crushing firefighters. And he nailed

01:10:23.720 --> 01:10:27.100
it, man, with so many. Don't get me wrong. PTSD

01:10:27.100 --> 01:10:30.500
is a real thing, but the organizational, I don't

01:10:30.500 --> 01:10:33.239
even want to associate it with PTSD, the organizational

01:10:33.239 --> 01:10:37.500
burnout from toxic leadership is just tragic

01:10:37.500 --> 01:10:41.439
in the fire service. I love the way you framed

01:10:41.439 --> 01:10:43.439
that. That was such a beautiful analogy. And

01:10:43.439 --> 01:10:45.779
I agree completely. I mean, there's all these

01:10:45.779 --> 01:10:48.020
different contributing factors. Unaddressed childhood

01:10:48.020 --> 01:10:49.939
trauma, obviously, is a big one that we're becoming

01:10:49.939 --> 01:10:52.479
more aware of now. And then, of course, yeah,

01:10:52.560 --> 01:10:54.600
when we see and it's less, I think, about the

01:10:54.600 --> 01:10:57.060
grotesque images and more about the shrieks of

01:10:57.060 --> 01:10:59.000
the loved ones that are left behind that really

01:10:59.000 --> 01:11:02.699
get into your soul. But then you add sleep deprivation

01:11:02.699 --> 01:11:04.859
and you add organizational betrayal. You've got

01:11:04.859 --> 01:11:07.739
this tribe that you literally swore to die for

01:11:07.739 --> 01:11:10.779
if needed. And then they turn their back on you.

01:11:11.000 --> 01:11:13.880
And it's so detrimental if you look at the evolutionary.

01:11:14.359 --> 01:11:16.899
So this is something that really needs to be

01:11:16.899 --> 01:11:19.119
talked about. And again, it's fixable. You can

01:11:19.119 --> 01:11:22.680
fix the sleep. You can fix the way you choose

01:11:22.680 --> 01:11:26.000
and or mentor leaders. And you can create a cohesive

01:11:26.000 --> 01:11:28.119
firehouse. I was so lucky in Anaheim to have

01:11:28.119 --> 01:11:30.319
an incredible truck crew that I was a part of.

01:11:30.840 --> 01:11:34.180
Absolutely my pinnacle, my fire service career.

01:11:34.760 --> 01:11:39.140
And I loved going to work. the last place i worked

01:11:39.140 --> 01:11:42.119
at i i dreaded going to work not the cause i

01:11:42.119 --> 01:11:46.000
love the cause it was the culture no and and

01:11:46.000 --> 01:11:48.140
i love frank viscuso one of my favorite people

01:11:48.140 --> 01:11:49.939
on the planet real step up and lead amazing person

01:11:49.939 --> 01:11:52.739
amazing human being and uh he has that slide

01:11:52.739 --> 01:11:54.199
i don't know where he got the slide from and

01:11:54.199 --> 01:11:56.060
he has the quote on the slide so i'll butcher

01:11:56.060 --> 01:12:00.140
it but it says culture is how you feel about

01:12:00.140 --> 01:12:02.140
showing up to work on monday on sunday night

01:12:02.810 --> 01:12:05.149
You know, it's that feeling in your stomach on

01:12:05.149 --> 01:12:06.489
Sunday night when you have to show up for work

01:12:06.489 --> 01:12:08.090
the next day. That's culture. And I wish I could

01:12:08.090 --> 01:12:10.430
attribute it. I'll have to look it up and look

01:12:10.430 --> 01:12:13.229
up the slide. But that's it, man. If you're on

01:12:13.229 --> 01:12:14.689
Sunday night, you know, he's talking about a

01:12:14.689 --> 01:12:16.909
40 -hour work week and a Monday to Friday. But

01:12:16.909 --> 01:12:19.470
if the night before shift, you're dreading going

01:12:19.470 --> 01:12:23.270
to work, man, that's an indication that you're

01:12:23.270 --> 01:12:25.029
in a toxic atmosphere. You're in a toxic culture.

01:12:26.369 --> 01:12:28.409
That's a terrible place to be. And this is one

01:12:28.409 --> 01:12:29.930
thing too, man. You only get one chance to go

01:12:29.930 --> 01:12:31.630
around this, this, this rock, you know, you'll

01:12:31.630 --> 01:12:34.609
get one life to live. So I know a lot of people

01:12:34.609 --> 01:12:36.029
are trapped by their pensions and they're trapped

01:12:36.029 --> 01:12:37.850
by their careers and their rank and their paycheck

01:12:37.850 --> 01:12:40.470
and their mortgage, but man, you only get one

01:12:40.470 --> 01:12:42.829
ride on this thing. So don't, don't waste it

01:12:42.829 --> 01:12:45.689
in a toxic atmosphere. And I know sometimes it's

01:12:45.689 --> 01:12:47.989
so much easier to say than it is to do. Believe

01:12:47.989 --> 01:12:50.930
me, I get that. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm kind

01:12:50.930 --> 01:12:53.829
of testament to making that leap because after

01:12:53.829 --> 01:12:57.329
that last one, coming back from a knee surgery

01:12:57.329 --> 01:13:01.130
that I rehab back to full duty, I realized that

01:13:01.130 --> 01:13:02.869
if I went back there, it was going to be detrimental.

01:13:03.050 --> 01:13:05.409
And I realized I could speak for this community

01:13:05.409 --> 01:13:08.590
far more powerfully from the outside. So I left

01:13:08.590 --> 01:13:10.689
my pension. I cashed out my pension and gave

01:13:10.689 --> 01:13:13.050
myself a salary for a year and a half. I have

01:13:13.050 --> 01:13:14.930
no pension as I sit here. I have no health insurance

01:13:14.930 --> 01:13:17.630
as I sit here now, to be completely honest. But

01:13:17.630 --> 01:13:19.649
it was the right thing to do. And for my mental

01:13:19.649 --> 01:13:21.229
health, it was the right thing to do. For my

01:13:21.229 --> 01:13:23.670
family, I've been present with my son for the

01:13:23.670 --> 01:13:26.409
last six and a half years, like every single

01:13:26.409 --> 01:13:28.909
night. Now he's about to graduate and go off

01:13:28.909 --> 01:13:33.449
and forge his own career. You are told that you

01:13:33.449 --> 01:13:36.430
are supposed to stay in a fire service, not because

01:13:36.430 --> 01:13:38.149
of that's how long the flame's going to burn

01:13:38.149 --> 01:13:39.789
or that's how long you're supposed to serve,

01:13:39.949 --> 01:13:42.930
but because a pension company said, this is how

01:13:42.930 --> 01:13:44.529
long you've got to wait till we'll give you some

01:13:44.529 --> 01:13:47.239
money. Right. So when you reframe that and then

01:13:47.239 --> 01:13:49.159
you think about your benefits, your health insurance,

01:13:49.260 --> 01:13:51.560
that goes away when you quit anyway. You know

01:13:51.560 --> 01:13:54.380
what I mean? Or you retire. Excuse me. So when

01:13:54.380 --> 01:13:56.600
you reframe that, if you're in a place that's

01:13:56.600 --> 01:13:59.000
not making you happy anymore, you can serve in

01:13:59.000 --> 01:14:01.000
a different department or you can serve even

01:14:01.000 --> 01:14:03.659
in a different career. You are not shackled to

01:14:03.659 --> 01:14:07.270
a pension. Yeah. No. And I wish. man especially

01:14:07.270 --> 01:14:10.350
and maybe when we we that starts becoming you

01:14:10.350 --> 01:14:12.210
know that becomes the mainstay of the zeitgeist

01:14:12.210 --> 01:14:15.770
of when we talk about this then maybe there'll

01:14:15.770 --> 01:14:17.750
actually be a change in in the toxic leadership

01:14:17.750 --> 01:14:20.029
that seems to be so pervasive throughout the

01:14:20.029 --> 01:14:23.369
american fire service 100 well i want to get

01:14:23.369 --> 01:14:25.909
to um you know the creation of all your projects

01:14:25.909 --> 01:14:28.890
in the books but just before we do when you reflect

01:14:28.890 --> 01:14:31.710
now and this again is not a what's the worst

01:14:31.710 --> 01:14:34.119
thing you've seen question by any means What

01:14:34.119 --> 01:14:36.420
are some of the career moments, whether it's

01:14:36.420 --> 01:14:38.520
fires or other rescues that you've had up to

01:14:38.520 --> 01:14:42.500
this point? Well, it's hard to work in more and

01:14:42.500 --> 01:14:44.319
not reference the tornadoes because those were

01:14:44.319 --> 01:14:49.600
just, I mean, F5s or F5s. The one in 99, which

01:14:49.600 --> 01:14:51.420
I had two years on at the time when it came through,

01:14:51.720 --> 01:14:55.079
that one broke the F scale, and that's when they

01:14:55.079 --> 01:14:57.340
made the EF scale. They were going to make an

01:14:57.340 --> 01:15:00.439
F6 at the highest wind speeds ever recorded on

01:15:00.439 --> 01:15:03.260
Earth. So it's hard not to reference. the tornadoes

01:15:03.260 --> 01:15:05.819
and and and seeing two f5s and in between an

01:15:05.819 --> 01:15:08.159
f4 then i think at one point i think i looked

01:15:08.159 --> 01:15:10.579
it up there's 13 other tornadoes that have hit

01:15:10.579 --> 01:15:12.420
more but the rest of them don't count because

01:15:12.420 --> 01:15:16.939
they were just f3s or below and but the the difference

01:15:16.939 --> 01:15:19.560
in the citizens of war between the 99 tornado

01:15:19.560 --> 01:15:25.800
and the 2013 f5 was just The response was, again,

01:15:27.039 --> 01:15:29.880
like in 99, it looked like a bomb had gone off

01:15:29.880 --> 01:15:31.159
in the city and everybody's wandering around

01:15:31.159 --> 01:15:36.199
wondering what to do. 2013, same situation, but

01:15:36.199 --> 01:15:38.659
everybody just went to work. And I'm shortchanging

01:15:38.659 --> 01:15:41.380
the 99 citizens somewhat in that regard, but

01:15:41.380 --> 01:15:44.079
there was just a difference. But in regards to

01:15:44.079 --> 01:15:47.439
that, yes, the tornadoes have to be the reference

01:15:47.439 --> 01:15:51.140
point. And I've already alluded to it once and

01:15:51.140 --> 01:15:54.810
you talked about it again. The calls I relish,

01:15:54.810 --> 01:15:58.229
it probably sounds bad, but I relish like bad

01:15:58.229 --> 01:16:00.590
trauma calls and to be there to make a difference,

01:16:00.630 --> 01:16:04.649
but to experience it. I want to be a part of

01:16:04.649 --> 01:16:07.189
things that are going on. I want to be there.

01:16:07.430 --> 01:16:10.289
I want to be there. And I don't apologize for

01:16:10.289 --> 01:16:11.510
that. I was like, I don't want anybody's stuff

01:16:11.510 --> 01:16:13.649
to burn, but if it's going to burn, please burn

01:16:13.649 --> 01:16:16.989
on green shift. And so I can be there. And I

01:16:16.989 --> 01:16:19.329
loved it forever. The things that bother me the

01:16:19.329 --> 01:16:22.329
most probably would be the. what and the only

01:16:22.329 --> 01:16:24.149
way i can describe it is to see emotional scarring

01:16:24.149 --> 01:16:28.069
in real time like you're watching emotional damage

01:16:28.069 --> 01:16:30.170
being done or psychological damage being done

01:16:30.170 --> 01:16:32.569
in real time and and it's usually a domestic

01:16:32.569 --> 01:16:35.189
case of some sort usually drugs are involved

01:16:35.189 --> 01:16:38.069
probably and and it's just those of those stick

01:16:38.069 --> 01:16:39.510
in my brain those are the ones i probably talked

01:16:39.510 --> 01:16:41.789
to my counselor the most tanya the most about

01:16:41.789 --> 01:16:45.930
was those those situations what are some of the

01:16:45.930 --> 01:16:50.170
unique operational elements responding to a tornado

01:16:50.170 --> 01:16:52.829
of that magnitude that many of us in the country

01:16:52.829 --> 01:16:59.369
will never experience? The first of all, tornadoes

01:16:59.369 --> 01:17:02.050
are very acute as opposed to like a hurricane,

01:17:02.170 --> 01:17:04.770
which is a chronic, you know, just, just grinding

01:17:04.770 --> 01:17:07.289
a tornado is like a laser beam came down from

01:17:07.289 --> 01:17:10.170
the heavens and went, you know, and, and it's

01:17:10.170 --> 01:17:13.189
a very, uh, lots of destruction. Do not get me

01:17:13.189 --> 01:17:15.050
wrong. Massive, you know, mile wide laser beam

01:17:15.050 --> 01:17:18.029
is still a pretty good, uh, destruction. But

01:17:18.029 --> 01:17:21.970
so that first thing is a lot of help is coming

01:17:21.970 --> 01:17:24.289
because it's just, it's so acute and localized.

01:17:24.569 --> 01:17:27.710
And so everywhere around you is unfazed. Generally

01:17:27.710 --> 01:17:29.189
speaking, when there's outbreaks, there's outbreaks,

01:17:29.350 --> 01:17:31.890
but generally speaking, there's one massive catastrophe

01:17:31.890 --> 01:17:35.109
on a path. And then all these resources are pouring

01:17:35.109 --> 01:17:37.590
in. And if you are not prepared for the resources,

01:17:37.689 --> 01:17:40.869
it will be a massive log jam and nothing will

01:17:40.869 --> 01:17:43.739
get done. And so the biggest thing, one of the

01:17:43.739 --> 01:17:46.460
keys we learned through the 99 tornado and the

01:17:46.460 --> 01:17:51.880
2013 tornado was staging and the power of staging,

01:17:52.039 --> 01:17:55.840
the power of the IMS system, the incident management,

01:17:56.000 --> 01:17:59.140
you know, just be good at the basics of those

01:17:59.140 --> 01:18:01.779
and you will be good at a disaster. It's like

01:18:01.779 --> 01:18:04.420
everything, man, master the basics and, and the

01:18:04.420 --> 01:18:06.819
rest, you know, all the curve balls are easier

01:18:06.819 --> 01:18:10.079
when you've mastered the basics. We've made some

01:18:10.079 --> 01:18:13.140
kind of, note of your mental health journey,

01:18:13.260 --> 01:18:15.539
some of the emotional highs and lows. When you

01:18:15.539 --> 01:18:18.720
look back now, you know, where were the lowest

01:18:18.720 --> 01:18:21.260
places you've got? And then what were, aside

01:18:21.260 --> 01:18:23.060
from obviously your counselor herself, what were

01:18:23.060 --> 01:18:25.300
some of the tools that you've accumulated to

01:18:25.300 --> 01:18:29.420
help yourself grow from those? Lowest, probably

01:18:29.420 --> 01:18:32.359
Plaza Towers Elementary School, the 2013 F5 tornado

01:18:32.359 --> 01:18:33.899
that took out that. I was one of the first on

01:18:33.899 --> 01:18:36.239
scene at the, you know, where the kids were killed.

01:18:36.680 --> 01:18:38.939
And for five years, I couldn't talk about it.

01:18:38.979 --> 01:18:41.890
I wouldn't drive past it. They rebuilt the school

01:18:41.890 --> 01:18:43.949
and they had a dedication. It was on shift. I

01:18:43.949 --> 01:18:46.050
was on day on duty that day. And I called in

01:18:46.050 --> 01:18:47.789
sick because I wasn't going to be there. And

01:18:47.789 --> 01:18:49.989
so that was, and that, like I said, I couldn't

01:18:49.989 --> 01:18:54.329
even talk about that. Five years ago, 10. Yeah,

01:18:54.329 --> 01:18:57.350
probably. And Tanya was, and that's what the

01:18:57.350 --> 01:18:59.569
bulk of the EMDR was dealing with that, that

01:18:59.569 --> 01:19:02.630
situation. Those, the, the kids that we pulled

01:19:02.630 --> 01:19:04.050
out of there and we did pull out kids that were

01:19:04.050 --> 01:19:07.189
alive. We did. But then we didn't. And it was,

01:19:07.210 --> 01:19:10.270
it was a. Probably the darkest day I've had as

01:19:10.270 --> 01:19:12.829
a firefighter. Just children are always tough.

01:19:12.949 --> 01:19:15.189
Children are always tough. And it's the senselessness

01:19:15.189 --> 01:19:19.090
of it. You know, why? It's just a question of

01:19:19.090 --> 01:19:23.609
why. But the tools I've accumulated, A, people

01:19:23.609 --> 01:19:26.090
smarter than me like Tanya and the EMDR and the

01:19:26.090 --> 01:19:30.329
counseling. But it's so important to talk. Because

01:19:30.329 --> 01:19:35.020
for five years, I did not talk. And there's calls,

01:19:35.079 --> 01:19:37.520
there's other calls and things, but now I know

01:19:37.520 --> 01:19:39.720
the importance of talking about it. In fact,

01:19:39.739 --> 01:19:43.600
we made a call shortly after the Plaza Towers

01:19:43.600 --> 01:19:49.140
and it was an infant CPR. And anytime I'm with

01:19:49.140 --> 01:19:51.579
a certain firefighter and we'll look at each

01:19:51.579 --> 01:19:53.340
other and we're both thinking about that, you

01:19:53.340 --> 01:19:54.880
know what I'm saying? But we talk about it now.

01:19:54.920 --> 01:19:56.500
We talk about it now where before we wouldn't.

01:19:56.560 --> 01:20:00.920
And so I think the most important tool is you

01:20:00.920 --> 01:20:06.359
have to say out loud. what you're thinking to

01:20:06.359 --> 01:20:09.579
other people who can understand you. And you

01:20:09.579 --> 01:20:12.720
have to. You have to. And if you don't, I promise

01:20:12.720 --> 01:20:16.659
you, it's bottling up in there. Absolutely. Another

01:20:16.659 --> 01:20:18.420
thing I've heard from a lot of people, especially

01:20:18.420 --> 01:20:21.220
if they grew up in a faith -based household and

01:20:21.220 --> 01:20:23.779
they were entrenched in their own specific religion.

01:20:24.810 --> 01:20:26.369
And then something happens that, like you said,

01:20:26.430 --> 01:20:28.649
doesn't make any sense. There's no reason why,

01:20:28.770 --> 01:20:31.609
you know, sometimes their faith is shaken for

01:20:31.609 --> 01:20:34.210
a while. Did you experience that anytime, including

01:20:34.210 --> 01:20:39.409
the school? I know my dad called me shortly after,

01:20:39.489 --> 01:20:41.430
you know, the cell service was down and shoddy.

01:20:41.470 --> 01:20:43.710
So I think it was about a week after, maybe not

01:20:43.710 --> 01:20:45.390
that long, but he finally got a hold of me and

01:20:45.390 --> 01:20:46.930
asked me how I was doing. You know what I'm saying?

01:20:47.390 --> 01:20:50.430
And I think my answer to him was God decided

01:20:50.430 --> 01:20:54.489
he wanted those kids with him more. than with

01:20:54.489 --> 01:20:56.829
their parents, you know? And, and I think that

01:20:56.829 --> 01:20:58.689
was kind of a coping answer, but at the same

01:20:58.689 --> 01:21:02.149
time, it's something I firmly believe. So, uh,

01:21:02.409 --> 01:21:06.369
no, I think it absolutely. And me and, uh, faith

01:21:06.369 --> 01:21:08.210
have a, I don't want to say me and God, but me

01:21:08.210 --> 01:21:10.630
and faith have a tenuous relationship because

01:21:10.630 --> 01:21:15.550
I do question things. I do. I really, uh, but

01:21:15.550 --> 01:21:18.369
I, I, I always tell people I have a very high

01:21:18.369 --> 01:21:21.689
faith because, you know, the whole point of it

01:21:21.689 --> 01:21:24.449
is you can't prove it. But you believe it anyway.

01:21:24.710 --> 01:21:26.649
So that's faith. So I have a very high faith.

01:21:26.869 --> 01:21:29.770
But I also question my own faith, you know, at

01:21:29.770 --> 01:21:33.689
times. And the school and the why definitely

01:21:33.689 --> 01:21:37.689
tested it. I've always had this kind of perception,

01:21:37.890 --> 01:21:40.609
you know, because I do believe in God. I have

01:21:40.609 --> 01:21:43.850
faith in, you know, all of the kind of spiritual

01:21:43.850 --> 01:21:46.409
side. I just don't have a specific religion that

01:21:46.409 --> 01:21:50.710
I adhere to. But to me. I truly believe that,

01:21:50.729 --> 01:21:52.270
you know, this all came from something beautiful

01:21:52.270 --> 01:21:56.149
and there is, you know, a higher purpose and

01:21:56.149 --> 01:21:58.270
a higher power. And, you know, hopefully some

01:21:58.270 --> 01:21:59.869
of we go next. I mean, we're all crossing our

01:21:59.869 --> 01:22:03.050
fingers. But when it comes to the things that

01:22:03.050 --> 01:22:05.689
we see down here, I feel like, you know, this

01:22:05.689 --> 01:22:07.890
was all put together and it's kind of like, all

01:22:07.890 --> 01:22:10.390
right, you know, now it's up to you guys to govern

01:22:10.390 --> 01:22:12.890
yourselves. And so I don't think of it as like,

01:22:12.949 --> 01:22:14.529
oh, it's God's plan. Like you hear some people

01:22:14.529 --> 01:22:16.890
say, I'm not sure about that. This is me personally.

01:22:17.010 --> 01:22:19.380
No, no, no, I'm with you. It's you know, now

01:22:19.380 --> 01:22:22.460
it's up to us to, you know, to make whether it's

01:22:22.460 --> 01:22:25.100
school safer or, you know, firefighter work weeks

01:22:25.100 --> 01:22:28.500
better or, you know, whatever the thing is. I

01:22:28.500 --> 01:22:31.399
really feel like this. These are human decisions.

01:22:31.579 --> 01:22:34.159
So if we lose some people from these tragedies,

01:22:34.159 --> 01:22:36.979
was it preventable? You know, and if if we lost

01:22:36.979 --> 01:22:38.579
them the first time, how do we stop it happening

01:22:38.579 --> 01:22:41.479
again? Sure. So that's what kind of sets me at

01:22:41.479 --> 01:22:43.279
peace is I don't think God was up there moving

01:22:43.279 --> 01:22:44.859
chess pieces saying, all right, we're going to

01:22:44.859 --> 01:22:47.779
kill these kids next. I feel like there was this

01:22:47.779 --> 01:22:49.819
beautiful creation that we get to experience.

01:22:49.899 --> 01:22:52.500
These miracles are around us, but there is also

01:22:52.500 --> 01:22:55.060
an element of chance in what happens to us while

01:22:55.060 --> 01:22:57.340
we're here. No, no. And I'm a huge proponent

01:22:57.340 --> 01:23:00.619
of free will. And I don't believe in like predestination,

01:23:00.720 --> 01:23:03.000
predetermination. You know, your fate is your

01:23:03.000 --> 01:23:04.560
fate. No matter what you do, it's not going to

01:23:04.560 --> 01:23:07.300
matter. No, what we do has to matter. And that's

01:23:07.300 --> 01:23:10.560
why we have free will. That's why we were given

01:23:10.560 --> 01:23:13.399
free will from wherever it came from, because

01:23:13.399 --> 01:23:16.800
it's up to us what we do with it. A hundred percent.

01:23:17.359 --> 01:23:19.340
All right. Well, then you talked about, you know,

01:23:19.359 --> 01:23:21.760
accumulating these leadership skills, seeing

01:23:21.760 --> 01:23:24.279
some of the things that were working really well

01:23:24.279 --> 01:23:25.779
in the fire service, some of the things that

01:23:25.779 --> 01:23:28.420
maybe needed some work. What was it that made

01:23:28.420 --> 01:23:31.039
you actually pick up the torch and create Firehouse

01:23:31.039 --> 01:23:36.119
Vigilance? It was a confluence, you know, obviously

01:23:36.119 --> 01:23:38.100
there's all these different influencing factors.

01:23:38.140 --> 01:23:41.180
It was people that invested in me young. Others

01:23:41.180 --> 01:23:43.380
that had fought the good fight against complacency,

01:23:43.399 --> 01:23:44.960
even though I couldn't put it into those words.

01:23:45.420 --> 01:23:49.199
It was a love of fighting fire. And I went and

01:23:49.199 --> 01:23:52.939
saw Dave McGrell speak, which he did 40 years,

01:23:52.979 --> 01:23:55.779
I think. I want to say 40. Is that Denver Chief?

01:23:56.039 --> 01:23:58.640
Yeah, Denver Chief. And between him and his father,

01:23:58.739 --> 01:24:01.220
I think he did 90 years at the Denver Fire Department.

01:24:01.500 --> 01:24:05.600
But he's an amazing speaker. And he talked about...

01:24:06.319 --> 01:24:08.600
Into the job, being into the job. And I didn't

01:24:08.600 --> 01:24:10.739
realize this because I just saw him. He just

01:24:10.739 --> 01:24:14.300
came to town a month ago and I got to go see

01:24:14.300 --> 01:24:17.000
him speak again and see him again. And it was

01:24:17.000 --> 01:24:20.420
the same presentation updated by about 10 years.

01:24:21.359 --> 01:24:24.680
But sitting there taking notes, I was like, holy

01:24:24.680 --> 01:24:29.300
shit. He had such an impact on me in 2016 when

01:24:29.300 --> 01:24:31.699
I saw him speak. And it was him and Mike Walker

01:24:31.699 --> 01:24:36.880
from OKC, Brian Brush. from firefighter rescue

01:24:36.880 --> 01:24:39.180
survey he is actually the one that brought him

01:24:39.180 --> 01:24:40.840
in at the department that was very close to mine

01:24:40.840 --> 01:24:42.779
at the time and then the other thing that was

01:24:42.779 --> 01:24:45.100
very big uh very big impact was mark von oppen

01:24:45.100 --> 01:24:47.479
which is uh he he's fully involved leadership

01:24:47.479 --> 01:24:52.680
and and i saw him speak 2017 and so between i

01:24:52.680 --> 01:24:54.500
didn't realize how big of an impact dave mcgrill

01:24:54.500 --> 01:24:56.640
had had and then mark von oppen spoke and mark

01:24:56.640 --> 01:25:00.930
von oppen i i this sounds weird to say now But

01:25:00.930 --> 01:25:03.630
he was the first person I ever heard say out

01:25:03.630 --> 01:25:06.289
loud and proud of it to say, you can be good

01:25:06.289 --> 01:25:09.189
at this job. You can be a kick ass firefighter

01:25:09.189 --> 01:25:12.109
and be proud of it and brag about it. And he

01:25:12.109 --> 01:25:14.170
was the first person I ever heard say that. And

01:25:14.170 --> 01:25:19.060
it blew my mind because. It was always, this

01:25:19.060 --> 01:25:22.880
is just a job, man. Why you wouldn't be a firefighter?

01:25:22.899 --> 01:25:25.279
You want to be good at being a firefighter? What,

01:25:25.319 --> 01:25:27.260
you think you're a hero? That kind of mentality

01:25:27.260 --> 01:25:29.380
towards it. But he was the first one that said,

01:25:29.460 --> 01:25:31.819
no, you can be badass at this job and be proud

01:25:31.819 --> 01:25:33.960
of it. And that completely changed my mindset.

01:25:34.180 --> 01:25:39.260
And I got to see him in Indianapolis last year

01:25:39.260 --> 01:25:42.989
at FDIC. And he was, you know, they had a dinner

01:25:42.989 --> 01:25:45.569
and we got to toast his retirement. And I got

01:25:45.569 --> 01:25:47.130
to tell him that for the first time, because

01:25:47.130 --> 01:25:48.729
I don't think I'd ever told him how big of an

01:25:48.729 --> 01:25:50.529
impact he'd had. Like, I wouldn't exist without

01:25:50.529 --> 01:25:53.810
Dave McGill and Mark Von Oppen doing what they

01:25:53.810 --> 01:25:58.090
did. But I basically started Firehouse Vigilance.

01:25:58.210 --> 01:26:00.529
2018 was I founded Firehouse Vigilance and I

01:26:00.529 --> 01:26:02.729
was going to make a big difference in my department.

01:26:02.810 --> 01:26:07.529
That was my plan. Dave McGill spoke at the Orlando

01:26:07.529 --> 01:26:10.560
Fire Conference a few years ago. And, you know,

01:26:10.560 --> 01:26:13.020
I had a funny feeling. I knew what he was going

01:26:13.020 --> 01:26:16.680
to say, but I asked him from a firefighter fitness

01:26:16.680 --> 01:26:20.260
point of view, you know, how many floors do you

01:26:20.260 --> 01:26:22.800
expect a firefighter to be able to climb? And

01:26:22.800 --> 01:26:24.760
he said, I'll never forget this, to the top of

01:26:24.760 --> 01:26:27.539
the tallest building in my city. And I was like,

01:26:27.619 --> 01:26:30.739
mic drop, walk out. But it's true. And you think

01:26:30.739 --> 01:26:32.500
of Denver, there's a lot of tall buildings. You

01:26:32.500 --> 01:26:34.520
think of Orlando, you think of LA and New York

01:26:34.520 --> 01:26:37.119
and all these other places. Worst case scenario,

01:26:37.319 --> 01:26:40.039
like we talked about. You should be able to make

01:26:40.039 --> 01:26:41.680
it to the top. Are you going to be racing up

01:26:41.680 --> 01:26:44.439
like a gazelle? Of course not. But when the elevators

01:26:44.439 --> 01:26:46.119
don't work and there's people up there that need

01:26:46.119 --> 01:26:49.039
to be rescued, that is the expectation, which

01:26:49.039 --> 01:26:51.199
obviously factors back to our earlier tactical

01:26:51.199 --> 01:26:54.020
athlete conversation. Absolutely. And not to

01:26:54.020 --> 01:26:55.359
mention, if you want to talk about Denver, there's

01:26:55.359 --> 01:26:57.819
no air there. So let's be real. They're tall

01:26:57.819 --> 01:27:00.840
and there's no air. Yeah, I snowboarded there

01:27:00.840 --> 01:27:02.699
once and I've never been so winded in my life.

01:27:02.800 --> 01:27:06.510
It's crazy. No doubt about it. All right. So

01:27:06.510 --> 01:27:09.630
you want to change your department. I have experienced

01:27:09.630 --> 01:27:11.770
personally, and I've heard many people, I think

01:27:11.770 --> 01:27:14.609
even Mark and some other people, the profit is

01:27:14.609 --> 01:27:17.270
never received in their own land, as they say.

01:27:17.329 --> 01:27:21.130
What was the impact on your department? And if

01:27:21.130 --> 01:27:24.930
it wasn't as expected, were you surprised when

01:27:24.930 --> 01:27:26.649
you were having an impact on other departments

01:27:26.649 --> 01:27:30.720
instead? Both. Absolutely. And 100 percent, it

01:27:30.720 --> 01:27:32.600
was it went over like a lead balloon. You know,

01:27:32.600 --> 01:27:35.020
I started writing articles first, you know, and

01:27:35.020 --> 01:27:36.960
I'm a voracious reader. I love to read. In fact,

01:27:36.960 --> 01:27:38.939
you can see I got bookshelves on both sides and

01:27:38.939 --> 01:27:41.279
they're full of of plan to read books and books

01:27:41.279 --> 01:27:43.739
I've read. But I would take those things I read

01:27:43.739 --> 01:27:46.260
and I would write articles based on them. And

01:27:46.260 --> 01:27:48.659
you can imagine that those I mean, don't get

01:27:48.659 --> 01:27:50.060
me wrong. I got people that enjoyed reading them

01:27:50.060 --> 01:27:52.119
and I got feedback from friends and people I

01:27:52.119 --> 01:27:54.920
had relationships with. But outside of the close

01:27:54.920 --> 01:27:57.850
relationships, it was like. literally the proverbial

01:27:57.850 --> 01:28:01.010
lead balloon. And so, but one of the things that

01:28:01.010 --> 01:28:02.689
did, I started the firehouse vigilance. I think

01:28:02.689 --> 01:28:04.810
it was Instagram page with, with the, the, the

01:28:04.810 --> 01:28:07.609
memes that were basically a quote from, you know,

01:28:07.609 --> 01:28:09.970
general Patton, but it was a fire firefighter

01:28:09.970 --> 01:28:12.050
scene that I I'd bury the quote in. And I had

01:28:12.050 --> 01:28:14.010
a lot of fun making those just creatively artistically,

01:28:14.050 --> 01:28:17.090
but those actually started catching some traction

01:28:17.090 --> 01:28:19.210
and getting liked and shared and things like

01:28:19.210 --> 01:28:21.090
that. And that was actually the first outside

01:28:21.090 --> 01:28:24.770
of my own, you know, that was taken off, but

01:28:24.770 --> 01:28:27.930
I was very frustrated that no one, I don't know

01:28:27.930 --> 01:28:30.109
how you say it, appreciated my articles. No one

01:28:30.109 --> 01:28:32.310
liked it. It was some unknown dude from Moore,

01:28:32.390 --> 01:28:34.149
Oklahoma, writing articles on leadership. What

01:28:34.149 --> 01:28:37.649
does he know? Or culture or insert whatever tactic

01:28:37.649 --> 01:28:42.750
I wanted to write about. And so my wife is the

01:28:42.750 --> 01:28:44.510
one who said, why don't you go live on Facebook

01:28:44.510 --> 01:28:47.029
and just talk about it instead? Because she's

01:28:47.029 --> 01:28:52.050
a realtor. And at the time, 2018, 2019, Facebook

01:28:52.050 --> 01:28:54.090
Live was a big deal with realtors going and doing

01:28:54.090 --> 01:28:57.890
like. tours of houses, you know? And I was, I

01:28:57.890 --> 01:28:59.310
told her, I remember to this day, I was like,

01:28:59.390 --> 01:29:01.069
that's one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard.

01:29:01.130 --> 01:29:03.489
I'm never going to do that. And so, and then

01:29:03.489 --> 01:29:05.970
like two weeks later, I did my first live, uh,

01:29:06.270 --> 01:29:09.010
on, and it was a weekly scrap and I started it

01:29:09.010 --> 01:29:12.369
as a phone, uh, based me talking to the phone

01:29:12.369 --> 01:29:15.109
about my articles. And that was the start of

01:29:15.109 --> 01:29:19.149
it. And number, I did 10 of them. And I very

01:29:19.149 --> 01:29:22.430
quickly realized this is, and I think you probably

01:29:22.430 --> 01:29:25.010
know this. If you, You only have so much stuff

01:29:25.010 --> 01:29:27.829
to say. That's why the guests are so important.

01:29:28.149 --> 01:29:30.130
The guests are so, I didn't realize this at first,

01:29:30.149 --> 01:29:32.130
but after like 10 episodes, I pretty much said

01:29:32.130 --> 01:29:33.569
everything I was going to say. It was going to

01:29:33.569 --> 01:29:36.489
be regurgitated at, you know, and different angles,

01:29:36.630 --> 01:29:39.869
but it was all the same stuff. And I had my first

01:29:39.869 --> 01:29:42.569
guest on, which was Court Smith out of OKC Fire.

01:29:42.670 --> 01:29:45.529
He was the union president or no, the fools president

01:29:45.529 --> 01:29:48.329
of our fools chapter there. And he actually told

01:29:48.329 --> 01:29:49.670
me at the fools meeting, he said, Hey, Corley,

01:29:49.729 --> 01:29:52.260
I want to come on your show. And I was like,

01:29:52.319 --> 01:29:54.199
Holy shit. I didn't know you even knew about

01:29:54.199 --> 01:29:56.899
my show, you know, but when I interviewed him

01:29:56.899 --> 01:29:59.119
and I didn't even know how to do it, I think

01:29:59.119 --> 01:30:00.960
we, you know, at the time you could invite a

01:30:00.960 --> 01:30:02.699
person into your Facebook live and you can, it's

01:30:02.699 --> 01:30:04.100
still on YouTube. You can see it as terrible

01:30:04.100 --> 01:30:07.220
as far as quality, but he came on and I loved

01:30:07.220 --> 01:30:10.119
it. It lasted like maybe 16 minutes, but interviewing

01:30:10.119 --> 01:30:14.100
him was so much better than me talking. And from

01:30:14.100 --> 01:30:15.720
that point forward, all I wanted to do was try

01:30:15.720 --> 01:30:17.920
and book people. And I can still remember to

01:30:17.920 --> 01:30:20.439
this day. uh, Rick Lasky, I think he was number

01:30:20.439 --> 01:30:24.140
37. So from number 11 to 37, there was only 27

01:30:24.140 --> 01:30:26.939
in between. But I remember like I'd done like

01:30:26.939 --> 01:30:30.119
five or six guests and I was like, man, Rick

01:30:30.119 --> 01:30:32.680
Lasky, I love Rick pride and ownership changed.

01:30:32.800 --> 01:30:34.939
Another thing that really impacted my journey

01:30:34.939 --> 01:30:36.579
was that book pride and ownership, which I read

01:30:36.579 --> 01:30:39.100
right about the same time as I saw Dave McGrail

01:30:39.100 --> 01:30:43.250
and Mark Von Oppen. But I was like, I typed out

01:30:43.250 --> 01:30:45.210
a whole long message to him on Facebook messenger.

01:30:45.369 --> 01:30:47.170
And I was like sitting there and I was in a hotel

01:30:47.170 --> 01:30:50.409
room down in Houston, attending how to a class

01:30:50.409 --> 01:30:52.890
for how to put together four gas monitors. And

01:30:52.890 --> 01:30:55.390
I can still remember just like almost hitting

01:30:55.390 --> 01:30:56.949
the button, but backing off and almost hitting

01:30:56.949 --> 01:30:59.170
the button and backing off. I'm like, I don't

01:30:59.170 --> 01:31:00.970
think my ego could handle if he just said, if

01:31:00.970 --> 01:31:02.829
he, if he told me, no, I'm not coming on your

01:31:02.829 --> 01:31:05.010
show. You know what I'm saying? But I finally

01:31:05.010 --> 01:31:07.729
hit the send button. And you probably know this

01:31:07.729 --> 01:31:09.289
as good as anybody with the number of guests

01:31:09.289 --> 01:31:11.489
you have on. It's amazing how gracious people

01:31:11.489 --> 01:31:13.829
are and how amazing they are when you just reach

01:31:13.829 --> 01:31:17.409
out and are genuine with them and the relationships

01:31:17.409 --> 01:31:20.850
you can build. And it's so powerful. So he said

01:31:20.850 --> 01:31:23.689
yes. He came on. And now he's the person I close

01:31:23.689 --> 01:31:26.470
each year with. It's a tradition that Rick Lasky

01:31:26.470 --> 01:31:28.189
comes on, and it's kind of the state of the fire

01:31:28.189 --> 01:31:31.779
service according to Pride and Ownership. Beautiful.

01:31:31.819 --> 01:31:33.779
Yeah, I can totally attest to what you said.

01:31:33.859 --> 01:31:36.060
The only time I've actually monologued on the

01:31:36.060 --> 01:31:38.060
podcast is the very first one, which is just

01:31:38.060 --> 01:31:39.739
me talking about this podcast that I'm going

01:31:39.739 --> 01:31:43.619
to start. And then the one I did on 2448, 2472,

01:31:43.779 --> 01:31:45.899
excuse me, and all the Q &As that I was answering

01:31:45.899 --> 01:31:48.079
because I'd heard it so many times. I want to

01:31:48.079 --> 01:31:50.939
create a resource to send to people. But yeah,

01:31:51.420 --> 01:31:55.699
when I first started. I sent 10 emails out and

01:31:55.699 --> 01:31:58.199
I'd done sales in London years ago, like on the

01:31:58.199 --> 01:32:00.899
street, like full on cold calling. And it was

01:32:00.899 --> 01:32:02.640
like, well, if you, if you ask 10 people, one

01:32:02.640 --> 01:32:04.500
person will say yes. And it might, you might

01:32:04.500 --> 01:32:06.720
have to ask a hundred and the last 10 will say

01:32:06.720 --> 01:32:08.359
yes. You don't know what the ratio is. Right.

01:32:08.460 --> 01:32:10.260
Right. But anyway, so I send these 10 emails

01:32:10.260 --> 01:32:13.119
out, all 10 of them say yes. And I'm like, oh

01:32:13.119 --> 01:32:15.399
shit, that's two and a half months worth of,

01:32:15.420 --> 01:32:17.439
of interviews I've just got. So that's why I

01:32:17.439 --> 01:32:20.020
ended up adding more per week, but I don't know

01:32:20.020 --> 01:32:22.699
if you've had this. As the years have gone on,

01:32:22.720 --> 01:32:25.539
as more and more podcasts have come out, it's

01:32:25.539 --> 01:32:28.439
a lot harder now to get to that person. When

01:32:28.439 --> 01:32:30.640
you get hold of them and they know who you are

01:32:30.640 --> 01:32:32.760
and they understand the platform, more often

01:32:32.760 --> 01:32:34.420
than not, it's a yes and it's beautiful. But

01:32:34.420 --> 01:32:37.340
the way to get to people, the thing has just

01:32:37.340 --> 01:32:40.159
become so much white noise now that I wish it

01:32:40.159 --> 01:32:42.760
was 2016 where you just send an email, they see

01:32:42.760 --> 01:32:45.260
it straight away, they respond yes or no, that's

01:32:45.260 --> 01:32:47.760
fine. And then you move on. But it's become a

01:32:47.760 --> 01:32:50.359
lot more diluted now, I think. Oh, without a

01:32:50.359 --> 01:32:52.039
doubt. Without a doubt. Anybody can start a podcast.

01:32:52.199 --> 01:32:54.939
And there's a lot of people that do. That's probably

01:32:54.939 --> 01:32:56.899
one of the number one things. I'm sure you get

01:32:56.899 --> 01:32:58.659
the same thing. They say, hey, I'm thinking about

01:32:58.659 --> 01:33:00.439
starting a podcast. And they're asking for advice

01:33:00.439 --> 01:33:04.140
or some insight or whatever. And one thing I

01:33:04.140 --> 01:33:05.699
tell people all the time is, because I'll get

01:33:05.699 --> 01:33:08.560
asked to be on podcasts. And I've learned to

01:33:08.560 --> 01:33:11.619
answer with this, which is, hey, I'm 100%. I'd

01:33:11.619 --> 01:33:13.220
love to come on your podcast. Get to episode

01:33:13.220 --> 01:33:16.020
20. And I'm not big -timing you. I'm not saying

01:33:16.020 --> 01:33:18.439
I won't unless you have 20 episodes. I'm challenging

01:33:18.439 --> 01:33:20.960
you. Get to 20 episodes, and I will gladly come

01:33:20.960 --> 01:33:26.020
on your show. And A, I never hear from 99 % of

01:33:26.020 --> 01:33:28.539
them ever again because they do one or two episodes,

01:33:28.619 --> 01:33:30.619
and they're gone. And they're like, well, this

01:33:30.619 --> 01:33:31.979
is harder than I thought, and it's not that fun.

01:33:35.069 --> 01:33:36.630
It's not what I thought it was is basically what

01:33:36.630 --> 01:33:38.369
they figure out. But if you make it to 20, you're

01:33:38.369 --> 01:33:40.630
the real deal. Like, I think it's a Chris Williamson

01:33:40.630 --> 01:33:43.050
and I don't know, again, I don't check the stats,

01:33:43.149 --> 01:33:46.250
but he said, if you make it to 20 episodes, you're

01:33:46.250 --> 01:33:49.869
basically in the top 5 % of podcasts. And it's

01:33:49.869 --> 01:33:53.430
like, but there are so many that start and they're,

01:33:53.430 --> 01:33:55.630
and they have fire and they're, and they've got

01:33:55.630 --> 01:33:57.270
a good mission and they're going to be awesome.

01:33:57.350 --> 01:33:59.390
And they do one episode and then, and then two

01:33:59.390 --> 01:34:02.449
episodes and then a month later, a third episode.

01:34:02.449 --> 01:34:07.119
And then. Three months later, a teaser, and then

01:34:07.119 --> 01:34:10.840
they're gone. And they mean well, but it creates

01:34:10.840 --> 01:34:16.439
this, you said it best, white noise. Now, one

01:34:16.439 --> 01:34:20.800
thing between me and you is your guest list is

01:34:20.800 --> 01:34:25.859
super, like you touch a lot that I don't have

01:34:25.859 --> 01:34:29.920
the reach to. So mine's very focused on firefighting

01:34:29.920 --> 01:34:31.800
only. I've never had a non -firefighter guest

01:34:31.800 --> 01:34:35.140
yet. I plan to, we've talked about when is it

01:34:35.140 --> 01:34:37.699
going to happen? But so for me, it's, it's makes

01:34:37.699 --> 01:34:39.880
it, I think easier because it is that focus.

01:34:39.939 --> 01:34:42.579
And so because of the success of the scrap, most

01:34:42.579 --> 01:34:45.300
people know who it is. And whereas if I was a

01:34:45.300 --> 01:34:46.800
broader thing, they're like, what are you talking

01:34:46.800 --> 01:34:49.500
about? And so I could absolutely see it, especially

01:34:49.500 --> 01:34:51.720
with the prestige of some of the guests you've

01:34:51.720 --> 01:34:54.180
had on. Yeah. Well, it's funny in reverse though,

01:34:54.220 --> 01:34:57.739
because mine isn't fire focused. If you Google

01:34:57.739 --> 01:35:00.779
firefighter podcasts, mine has never shown up

01:35:00.779 --> 01:35:03.970
in eight years. I am a firefighter. Yeah. No,

01:35:04.010 --> 01:35:06.430
that's crazy. We talk about the fire service,

01:35:06.510 --> 01:35:08.270
but yeah, I don't. And I think, you know, some

01:35:08.270 --> 01:35:10.189
of these lists you got to submit your name to.

01:35:10.250 --> 01:35:12.310
And I'm like, no, I'm not going to do that. Like

01:35:12.310 --> 01:35:15.029
if it's, you know, if, if, if, if it's worthy

01:35:15.029 --> 01:35:16.890
of being in a certain list, then put it in a

01:35:16.890 --> 01:35:18.729
list. But it's like these podcast awards. Now

01:35:18.729 --> 01:35:21.010
you have to submit yourself to really get an

01:35:21.010 --> 01:35:22.510
award. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know enough

01:35:22.510 --> 01:35:25.470
about that. I don't know. Yeah, no, I don't,

01:35:25.470 --> 01:35:27.189
I don't like awards anyway. I mean, even in the

01:35:27.189 --> 01:35:29.630
fire service, like the scrap was the same. the

01:35:29.630 --> 01:35:31.810
scrap was the same when you type in firefighter

01:35:31.810 --> 01:35:33.829
podcast it would i could never find the weekly

01:35:33.829 --> 01:35:35.529
scrap or i'd have to scroll to like the 10th

01:35:35.529 --> 01:35:38.569
page of google and so finally i renamed it on

01:35:38.569 --> 01:35:42.609
my you know the push out the weekly scrap comma

01:35:42.609 --> 01:35:45.590
firefighter podcast and then about a year later

01:35:45.590 --> 01:35:47.590
so about four years in it finally started showing

01:35:47.590 --> 01:35:51.090
up because i i didn't know how to brand i didn't

01:35:51.090 --> 01:35:53.670
know how to tag you know all that stuff and i'm

01:35:53.670 --> 01:35:57.750
not submitting to anybody to say please no no

01:35:57.750 --> 01:36:00.850
exactly All right. Well then, so that's Firehouse

01:36:00.850 --> 01:36:03.729
Vigilance. Let's kind of progress through the

01:36:03.729 --> 01:36:06.310
book of search. You've got some of the people

01:36:06.310 --> 01:36:08.750
that are in there being on the show. Eric Wheaton,

01:36:08.810 --> 01:36:11.029
for example, I took his VES class in Orlando.

01:36:12.029 --> 01:36:14.409
Amazing, amazing class. Sadly, I got into that

01:36:14.409 --> 01:36:16.729
late in my career. I wish I'd been taught that

01:36:16.729 --> 01:36:18.710
when I was a young firefighter. Oh, absolutely.

01:36:19.029 --> 01:36:22.350
So some great, great names on there. Rob Ramirez.

01:36:22.890 --> 01:36:26.609
Talk to me about the... the kind of genesis of

01:36:26.609 --> 01:36:28.569
that book. And then, you know, what have you

01:36:28.569 --> 01:36:30.250
seen as far as the ripple effects of it since

01:36:30.250 --> 01:36:32.770
you put it out? Oh, right there. I had to get

01:36:32.770 --> 01:36:37.489
that. A, I would give all credit out the gate

01:36:37.489 --> 01:36:40.010
to a conversation I had with Zach Golombeski.

01:36:40.050 --> 01:36:41.670
I say this in the back page of the book where

01:36:41.670 --> 01:36:43.270
I talk about kind of the story of the book of

01:36:43.270 --> 01:36:45.470
search, how it came to be. Zach Golombeski, great

01:36:45.470 --> 01:36:47.670
firefighter out of Kansas. He's heavily involved

01:36:47.670 --> 01:36:50.510
there in training and the state firefighter association

01:36:50.510 --> 01:36:53.069
and everything there. But he reached out to me

01:36:53.069 --> 01:36:55.229
through social media or an email maybe and said,

01:36:55.289 --> 01:36:58.109
hey, I'm really looking for a resource on search,

01:36:58.270 --> 01:36:59.989
just specifically, especially with the new data

01:36:59.989 --> 01:37:03.649
coming out, the ULFSRI studies, the firefighter

01:37:03.649 --> 01:37:05.770
rescue survey data. Is there anything out there?

01:37:05.850 --> 01:37:08.310
And I was like, you know, holy shit, there's

01:37:08.310 --> 01:37:10.069
really not. There's good classes to take. And

01:37:10.069 --> 01:37:12.409
there's people that speak on it, you know, quite

01:37:12.409 --> 01:37:14.029
often and break down the, you know, there's all

01:37:14.029 --> 01:37:16.689
these. But no, there's not. And that was kind

01:37:16.689 --> 01:37:18.880
of the genesis of it. And he, and I think he

01:37:18.880 --> 01:37:20.520
even said, wouldn't it be cool if there was a

01:37:20.520 --> 01:37:22.699
resource that was a, there was all these people

01:37:22.699 --> 01:37:24.979
that teach all this stuff. And that got it going

01:37:24.979 --> 01:37:27.739
in my head. Now, one really cool thing I have

01:37:27.739 --> 01:37:30.300
because of the scrap is a, is a great network.

01:37:30.500 --> 01:37:33.079
Like I, I, I think I've told you this before

01:37:33.079 --> 01:37:36.640
is I'm really proud of my guest to friend conversionary.

01:37:37.239 --> 01:37:39.479
And you know, if, if you're a guest on the show,

01:37:39.520 --> 01:37:41.880
then you become my friend and I have no issue

01:37:41.880 --> 01:37:43.140
calling you up and saying, Hey, what do you think

01:37:43.140 --> 01:37:46.340
about this? Or I, you know, I have a lot of subject

01:37:46.340 --> 01:37:48.640
matter experts on a lot. And I can only imagine

01:37:48.640 --> 01:37:51.739
what yours is like because the diversity of what

01:37:51.739 --> 01:37:56.159
you talk to. Mine is strictly firefighting. But

01:37:56.159 --> 01:37:58.819
because of that, I was like, it would be awesome

01:37:58.819 --> 01:38:00.600
if I reached out to all these people that are

01:38:00.600 --> 01:38:03.260
in my network and had each of them write an article

01:38:03.260 --> 01:38:05.840
on a specific aspect of search. I think that'd

01:38:05.840 --> 01:38:08.060
be great. And that was the initial idea. And

01:38:08.060 --> 01:38:10.199
then I was like, but wait, I don't want it to

01:38:10.199 --> 01:38:13.859
be for money because that I can't, hey, I wouldn't

01:38:13.859 --> 01:38:16.060
even be. able to begin to figure out how to pay

01:38:16.060 --> 01:38:17.720
royalties to people who can, you know, that would

01:38:17.720 --> 01:38:20.100
be just a nightmare. So I said, what if it was

01:38:20.100 --> 01:38:23.640
all for a great cause? And of course I love firefighter

01:38:23.640 --> 01:38:27.060
rescue survey. So I called Nick and said, Nick,

01:38:27.060 --> 01:38:30.020
Nick Ledeen, he's my contact at firefighter rescue

01:38:30.020 --> 01:38:31.140
survey. There's a whole bunch of great dudes

01:38:31.140 --> 01:38:33.119
that run it and operate it. But I called him

01:38:33.119 --> 01:38:36.619
because he's my guy. And I said, Nick, this is

01:38:36.619 --> 01:38:39.140
my idea. I want to put together this book. And

01:38:39.140 --> 01:38:40.779
I want to give all the money from the sale of

01:38:40.779 --> 01:38:42.500
the, I want to give the book away for free. First

01:38:42.500 --> 01:38:44.800
of all, the PDF, anybody can download it. It's

01:38:44.800 --> 01:38:47.199
free. Everybody can have it, share it, add to

01:38:47.199 --> 01:38:48.960
it, do whatever you want with it. But the hardback

01:38:48.960 --> 01:38:54.079
big, beautiful, bad -ass hardback and all the

01:38:54.079 --> 01:38:55.640
proceeds go to firefighter rescue survey. Are

01:38:55.640 --> 01:38:57.939
you okay with that? Was my, my pitch to him.

01:38:58.340 --> 01:39:00.359
And he said, it's crazy. You say that. And again,

01:39:00.399 --> 01:39:03.939
everything happens for a reason because firefighter

01:39:03.939 --> 01:39:06.420
rescue survey a couple of years before had started

01:39:06.420 --> 01:39:09.010
a project. that was basically kind of the same

01:39:09.010 --> 01:39:10.390
thing they were going to make what was called

01:39:10.390 --> 01:39:13.590
the search manual and they had worked on it for

01:39:13.590 --> 01:39:15.649
for a couple months but it kind of lost steam

01:39:15.649 --> 01:39:18.510
they had of course the rescue survey to do and

01:39:18.510 --> 01:39:21.350
other stuff on their plates so when i came in

01:39:21.350 --> 01:39:24.630
they were like yeah let's we kind of merged and

01:39:24.630 --> 01:39:27.470
but one thing they had was this big long beautiful

01:39:27.470 --> 01:39:29.949
list of topics that they'd made everything they'd

01:39:29.949 --> 01:39:31.869
brainstormed and created this list which became

01:39:31.869 --> 01:39:34.770
the article list for the book of search so that

01:39:34.770 --> 01:39:37.079
list as I knock over everything on my desk, that

01:39:37.079 --> 01:39:41.100
list became, it was merged with the network of

01:39:41.100 --> 01:39:44.439
the scrap. And I started plugging names into

01:39:44.439 --> 01:39:46.239
articles and they had some articles already written.

01:39:46.260 --> 01:39:47.460
They had some good ones already written. So I

01:39:47.460 --> 01:39:48.840
don't want to shortchange the work they'd done.

01:39:49.640 --> 01:39:52.039
But the bulk of it came from the network and

01:39:52.039 --> 01:39:53.920
the list being merged. And the next 18 months

01:39:53.920 --> 01:39:57.659
later. There was a lot of Eric Wheaton. You brought

01:39:57.659 --> 01:39:59.239
up Eric Wheaton. I was like, ooh, searching with

01:39:59.239 --> 01:40:00.619
a can. There's only one person that can write

01:40:00.619 --> 01:40:02.119
that. It has to be Eric Wheaton. I called Eric

01:40:02.119 --> 01:40:04.140
Wheaton. He's like, man, I'd love to, but I'm

01:40:04.140 --> 01:40:05.960
going through a battalion chief's test. I really

01:40:05.960 --> 01:40:07.140
don't want to commit to that. I was like, hey,

01:40:07.180 --> 01:40:08.979
I respect that. That's way better than the people

01:40:08.979 --> 01:40:10.300
that committed to me and then never delivered,

01:40:10.380 --> 01:40:13.159
which is a whole other issue. So massive respect

01:40:13.159 --> 01:40:16.020
for it. And, but because of that, because I reached

01:40:16.020 --> 01:40:18.479
out to Richie stack up in Chicago and he, you

01:40:18.479 --> 01:40:20.199
know, I wanted someone, I didn't want to just

01:40:20.199 --> 01:40:22.199
go straight to F I had a bunch of FDNY guys or

01:40:22.199 --> 01:40:24.279
say a bunch, quite a few FDNY guys writing articles.

01:40:24.399 --> 01:40:26.359
I didn't want to just keep going FDNY. So I reached

01:40:26.359 --> 01:40:28.960
out to Chicago and got someone else to write

01:40:28.960 --> 01:40:31.760
a large area search class. And because Eric Wheaton

01:40:31.760 --> 01:40:33.140
said no, but then Eric Wheaton came back and

01:40:33.140 --> 01:40:36.600
said, Hey, I actually, yeah, I could, I can get

01:40:36.600 --> 01:40:39.800
it done. And anyway, like I said, everything

01:40:39.800 --> 01:40:43.029
happens for a reason stuff along the way. reached

01:40:43.029 --> 01:40:44.550
out to Paul Combs and said, Hey, would you be

01:40:44.550 --> 01:40:47.909
willing to make a cover for this? You know? And

01:40:47.909 --> 01:40:49.350
I told him, I gave him the pitch and he's like,

01:40:49.409 --> 01:40:52.909
absolutely. And if you've seen it, I don't have,

01:40:52.930 --> 01:40:55.210
I don't have anything within reach to grab, but

01:40:55.210 --> 01:40:57.289
the cover is amazing. In fact, he just released

01:40:57.289 --> 01:41:00.170
the full print on his website or on his social

01:41:00.170 --> 01:41:03.829
media. So I'll give him a plug. But the full

01:41:03.829 --> 01:41:05.859
print, I wish. I don't even have the name of

01:41:05.859 --> 01:41:08.479
it. I think it's like the devil's do or something,

01:41:08.539 --> 01:41:11.220
but it's, it's the main artwork, but it's the

01:41:11.220 --> 01:41:13.159
expanded version. So you can see like the flames.

01:41:13.760 --> 01:41:15.399
It's the part you can't see on the cover. It's

01:41:15.399 --> 01:41:17.680
like the devil's face coming for the victim and

01:41:17.680 --> 01:41:19.239
the, and the firefighters are trying to rescue

01:41:19.239 --> 01:41:21.140
him from the flames. It's, it's, it's, it's a

01:41:21.140 --> 01:41:24.760
pretty powerful print. But he did that. All of

01:41:24.760 --> 01:41:27.279
it. Just, it was amazing. Like the whole thing

01:41:27.279 --> 01:41:31.119
was synergy in action. Cause it was so much better

01:41:31.119 --> 01:41:33.380
than the sum of its parts. And it turned out

01:41:33.380 --> 01:41:36.079
so it actually, I still remember when the proof

01:41:36.079 --> 01:41:40.140
came in from Amazon, the hardback, my wife said,

01:41:40.220 --> 01:41:41.460
Hey, the book's in the book's in. And we'd been

01:41:41.460 --> 01:41:42.979
waiting a week to get it. Cause I'd submitted

01:41:42.979 --> 01:41:45.159
it the week before, you know, after doing all

01:41:45.159 --> 01:41:47.359
of the edits, all the digital edits over and

01:41:47.359 --> 01:41:49.479
over and over. And she brought it up to the firehouse

01:41:49.479 --> 01:41:51.659
just so I can open it up. And I pulled it out

01:41:51.659 --> 01:41:54.760
and I was like, almost like, Oh, please don't

01:41:54.760 --> 01:41:56.739
let all this work. And it looked like shit, you

01:41:56.739 --> 01:41:59.039
know? Cause, and, and when I pulled it, it was

01:41:59.039 --> 01:42:01.159
actually like, Holy crap, this turned out beautiful.

01:42:01.239 --> 01:42:04.680
Like. It looks, it doesn't look like a firefighter

01:42:04.680 --> 01:42:07.039
made it, is what I'll say. And it turned out

01:42:07.039 --> 01:42:10.840
really good. And it's, just to run numbers, throw

01:42:10.840 --> 01:42:13.239
numbers at you, as of two days ago, the last

01:42:13.239 --> 01:42:15.600
time I checked, it sold over 7 ,000. The hardback

01:42:15.600 --> 01:42:20.520
had sold over 7 ,000 copies and $95 ,000 raised

01:42:20.520 --> 01:42:23.020
from the sale of the hardback going to firefighter,

01:42:23.020 --> 01:42:25.479
100 % of the profits going to firefighter rescue

01:42:25.479 --> 01:42:28.359
survey. Not a dime for anything going to anywhere

01:42:28.359 --> 01:42:32.010
else. Other than what Amazon makes. I can't speak

01:42:32.010 --> 01:42:36.590
for them. But the PDF, the free digital download,

01:42:36.670 --> 01:42:38.729
has been downloaded over 10 ,000 times from my

01:42:38.729 --> 01:42:41.630
website. And that is just what I can track. I

01:42:41.630 --> 01:42:45.189
can't track the shares, the Google Drive that

01:42:45.189 --> 01:42:47.569
is on, the prints, everything that's been made

01:42:47.569 --> 01:42:50.989
for it. That's incredible. Dude, I'm telling

01:42:50.989 --> 01:42:52.649
you, it's one of the coolest things I've ever

01:42:52.649 --> 01:42:54.970
been a part of. And I'm very proud of it. And

01:42:54.970 --> 01:43:01.729
very humbled by the fire services. how amazing

01:43:01.729 --> 01:43:04.149
i think brian brush said it's amazing what we

01:43:04.149 --> 01:43:05.869
can accomplish when we have a common goal or

01:43:05.869 --> 01:43:08.329
a common enemy and and this was a common goal

01:43:08.329 --> 01:43:10.470
thing that just got absolutely knocked out of

01:43:10.470 --> 01:43:13.810
the park i mean just that topic as well is so

01:43:13.810 --> 01:43:15.649
important i think about you know obviously working

01:43:15.649 --> 01:43:17.350
for all these different departments you know

01:43:17.350 --> 01:43:21.630
you had different areas like my first one their

01:43:21.630 --> 01:43:24.050
search training was phenomenal you know and and

01:43:24.050 --> 01:43:26.880
you you know you they would have no problem leaving

01:43:26.880 --> 01:43:29.119
the nozzleman on the nozzle and sending the backup

01:43:29.119 --> 01:43:32.239
guy you know way back to manage corners and feed

01:43:32.239 --> 01:43:35.720
hose and then i get to anaheim amazing amazing

01:43:35.720 --> 01:43:38.500
truck work you know you're cutting roofs and

01:43:38.500 --> 01:43:40.500
you know building construction and all the things

01:43:40.500 --> 01:43:43.100
but when it came to the nozzle it was still very

01:43:43.100 --> 01:43:44.739
much like oh don't leave that leave the nozzle

01:43:44.739 --> 01:43:46.880
guy so you had you know hose management there

01:43:46.880 --> 01:43:49.500
when i think about the search training hire leah's

01:43:49.500 --> 01:43:52.500
tower It was like a townhome inside, and they

01:43:52.500 --> 01:43:55.000
had furniture. They had things that you had to

01:43:55.000 --> 01:43:56.819
search around. They had closets. They had all

01:43:56.819 --> 01:43:59.479
kinds of stuff. They were way ahead of the game.

01:44:00.579 --> 01:44:03.640
It was incredible. My entry to the fire service,

01:44:03.680 --> 01:44:06.659
I couldn't be more blessed in the bar that was

01:44:06.659 --> 01:44:09.899
set for me. But even think about, oh, you start

01:44:09.899 --> 01:44:11.319
at the base of the fire, and then you work your

01:44:11.319 --> 01:44:13.460
way back. You're searching, or primary search

01:44:13.460 --> 01:44:16.720
from the front door. I reflect now on the way

01:44:16.720 --> 01:44:17.840
I was taught. It's like, all right, you've done

01:44:17.840 --> 01:44:20.000
a right -hand search. then you get to the fire

01:44:20.000 --> 01:44:22.100
and you can't search around the fire because

01:44:22.100 --> 01:44:24.979
it's two rooms deep. How do you continue that

01:44:24.979 --> 01:44:27.439
search? I mean, there's a lot of questions that

01:44:27.439 --> 01:44:29.439
were never really answered. You just have to

01:44:29.439 --> 01:44:33.760
kind of think about it. So having a manual. Exactly.

01:44:34.159 --> 01:44:37.060
So I think it's brilliant. No, and there's so

01:44:37.060 --> 01:44:38.859
much thing, oriented search and split search

01:44:38.859 --> 01:44:45.039
and VES and just considerations. And yeah, again,

01:44:45.579 --> 01:44:46.859
I can't say, I don't want to say this real quick.

01:44:46.960 --> 01:44:49.810
I'll give it the plug. It's free to anybody out

01:44:49.810 --> 01:44:52.470
there. You can go download it. PDF, go to firehousevigilance

01:44:52.470 --> 01:44:54.329
.com. You can find it in the menu there and download

01:44:54.329 --> 01:44:56.770
it for free. It is a free resource. Share it

01:44:56.770 --> 01:44:58.729
with everybody. Print it off. Put it on your

01:44:58.729 --> 01:45:00.270
Google Drive. Share it on social media. Share

01:45:00.270 --> 01:45:02.869
it everywhere. It's a free resource. If you want

01:45:02.869 --> 01:45:07.050
a big, beautiful, badass hardback with the artwork

01:45:07.050 --> 01:45:10.130
of Paul Combs on the cover and all of it, go

01:45:10.130 --> 01:45:13.800
to Amazon and look for the book of search. Just

01:45:13.800 --> 01:45:15.720
don't get one of the fake ones. I think most

01:45:15.720 --> 01:45:17.479
of them have been removed, but there are fake

01:45:17.479 --> 01:45:19.640
ones, so make sure it's the real one. You can

01:45:19.640 --> 01:45:22.779
tell by the AI art that looks really similar,

01:45:22.880 --> 01:45:25.739
but it's not. Yeah, well, I would say as well,

01:45:25.800 --> 01:45:27.439
if you want to give back to the fire service,

01:45:27.560 --> 01:45:30.500
buy a hardback. I mean, the PDF there is there

01:45:30.500 --> 01:45:33.220
to share with other people, but contribute. I

01:45:33.220 --> 01:45:34.939
think it's beautiful what you're doing. Thank

01:45:34.939 --> 01:45:37.100
you. And a really cool part of it, there's 43

01:45:37.100 --> 01:45:39.939
authors that wrote articles, 46 articles, 43

01:45:39.939 --> 01:45:42.699
authors. And in the back, there is a section

01:45:42.699 --> 01:45:46.060
with... You know, each there's four per page,

01:45:46.199 --> 01:45:48.380
but there's each author that contributed and

01:45:48.380 --> 01:45:50.439
it's their alphabetical. So if you want to see

01:45:50.439 --> 01:45:51.960
what Brian Brush wrote, you can go there and

01:45:51.960 --> 01:45:54.279
say, OK, his his articles on page 157. If you

01:45:54.279 --> 01:45:56.140
want to see what Mike Champo wrote, you know,

01:45:56.140 --> 01:45:57.739
you go look it up in his pages, you know, whatever,

01:45:57.859 --> 01:46:00.119
whatever. That's to find the article. But next

01:46:00.119 --> 01:46:02.260
to their picture in their bio is a place for

01:46:02.260 --> 01:46:04.939
them to sign. And so the goal is it's like Pokemon.

01:46:05.439 --> 01:46:08.340
You buy the hardback book. And then as you travel

01:46:08.340 --> 01:46:10.279
around, you can find all the authors and get

01:46:10.279 --> 01:46:12.000
them to sign your book. And if you get them all,

01:46:12.119 --> 01:46:14.659
you got to catch them all. So if I see firefighters

01:46:14.659 --> 01:46:16.720
walking around a random park with their phone,

01:46:16.779 --> 01:46:19.420
they're looking for Rob Fisher. That's it. That

01:46:19.420 --> 01:46:24.239
is it. He's got to catch them. Yeah. all right

01:46:24.239 --> 01:46:26.060
well i want to hit one more topic before we throw

01:46:26.060 --> 01:46:28.699
some closing questions at you um you wrote a

01:46:28.699 --> 01:46:31.439
book on firefighter you know marriages on families

01:46:31.439 --> 01:46:33.939
i know you're developing a class for that as

01:46:33.939 --> 01:46:36.779
well so what made you and your wife put that

01:46:36.779 --> 01:46:38.939
together and what are some of the the takeaways

01:46:38.939 --> 01:46:42.939
you think people listening need to know yeah

01:46:42.939 --> 01:46:45.859
great question why did we write it is because

01:46:45.859 --> 01:46:49.489
as as i've traveled And my wife is, if you know

01:46:49.489 --> 01:46:52.630
Amanda at all, she is heavily involved in firehouse

01:46:52.630 --> 01:46:56.329
vigilance. She is my number one supporter and

01:46:56.329 --> 01:46:58.609
she makes it all work. She is amazing. Okay.

01:46:58.649 --> 01:47:00.289
So I can't speak enough about her, but she's

01:47:00.289 --> 01:47:02.930
heavily involved in the fire service from a spousal

01:47:02.930 --> 01:47:06.909
position. And she interacts with a lot of spouses

01:47:06.909 --> 01:47:11.189
and there was a need. And one thing about, and

01:47:11.189 --> 01:47:13.609
this is the book Broken Tools. One thing about

01:47:13.609 --> 01:47:17.159
the book is we, it. It is a relationship book.

01:47:17.220 --> 01:47:20.420
It is not really specifically firefighter relationship

01:47:20.420 --> 01:47:22.720
book. And so I want to be clear, like if you,

01:47:22.760 --> 01:47:24.960
you're not going to get a ton of, now it's written

01:47:24.960 --> 01:47:27.960
by a 28 year firefighter and his wife. So a ton

01:47:27.960 --> 01:47:31.039
of that bleeds into it, but it's not specifically

01:47:31.039 --> 01:47:34.100
aimed at firefighters. So I want to be very clear,

01:47:34.140 --> 01:47:36.100
but it is a relationship book. It's everything

01:47:36.100 --> 01:47:38.659
that me and my wife, we've been together 32 years

01:47:38.659 --> 01:47:42.619
now, and we've been to the darkest. And then

01:47:42.619 --> 01:47:45.239
to the mountaintops, you know, and the lessons

01:47:45.239 --> 01:47:47.560
we wish we would have known as two young, dumb

01:47:47.560 --> 01:47:50.720
kids who got married at age 18 and 19. You know,

01:47:50.720 --> 01:47:55.359
we knew nothing. And somehow, grace of God and

01:47:55.359 --> 01:47:57.279
luck of the dice and everything else you want

01:47:57.279 --> 01:48:00.520
to throw in there. We made it and survived and

01:48:00.520 --> 01:48:02.680
didn't kill each other along the way, despite

01:48:02.680 --> 01:48:07.100
our best efforts. And so and really, it's about

01:48:07.100 --> 01:48:11.430
understanding expectations. And I mean, the chapters

01:48:11.430 --> 01:48:13.090
are communication, expectation, inspiration,

01:48:13.409 --> 01:48:16.470
dedication. And it really is about understanding,

01:48:16.529 --> 01:48:18.829
getting on the same page with your spouse, no

01:48:18.829 --> 01:48:20.310
matter what that looks like, but being on the

01:48:20.310 --> 01:48:22.770
same page. Because most problems come from the

01:48:22.770 --> 01:48:24.930
communication breakdown that doesn't allow you

01:48:24.930 --> 01:48:26.630
to be on the same page and working in the same

01:48:26.630 --> 01:48:28.609
direction. Because it's unreal what you can accomplish

01:48:28.609 --> 01:48:31.770
when you're on the same page. Beautiful. There

01:48:31.770 --> 01:48:33.310
was one thing I wanted to ask you. I listened

01:48:33.310 --> 01:48:36.020
to you on... I think it was at Virginia Beach

01:48:36.020 --> 01:48:38.140
Fire. They have a podcast. Have I got that right?

01:48:38.220 --> 01:48:41.039
Yes. And you mentioned that you recently became

01:48:41.039 --> 01:48:44.800
grandparents. Yes. So do you have any school

01:48:44.800 --> 01:48:47.819
age kids or are they all left now? No, my youngest

01:48:47.819 --> 01:48:53.699
is 24. So oldest is 27. It's 27, 26, 24. We had

01:48:53.699 --> 01:48:56.819
our children very young and we couldn't figure

01:48:56.819 --> 01:48:58.359
out what was going on, but we were having fun

01:48:58.359 --> 01:49:01.930
and then the kids came. We weren't very smart.

01:49:02.050 --> 01:49:04.130
I'll put it that way. But I wouldn't trade anything.

01:49:04.289 --> 01:49:09.369
But it was a journey that is our journey. Well,

01:49:09.850 --> 01:49:12.510
the reason I ask this question is I've got a

01:49:12.510 --> 01:49:16.270
bonus boy. My stepson is 23 now. My son is 17.

01:49:16.569 --> 01:49:20.090
He'll be going to Utah State. Oh, wow. Yeah.

01:49:20.750 --> 01:49:23.470
Yeah, it's amazing. But now I'm finally realizing

01:49:23.470 --> 01:49:27.210
that this child that I poured 18 years of my

01:49:27.210 --> 01:49:30.640
life into is going to be gone soon. And that

01:49:30.640 --> 01:49:33.079
was my primary purpose. I mean, even my drive

01:49:33.079 --> 01:49:35.680
on changing, you know, the firefighting conditions

01:49:35.680 --> 01:49:37.819
is so that we can be present with our children.

01:49:38.880 --> 01:49:42.020
Talk to me about the empty nest element, because

01:49:42.020 --> 01:49:44.020
when we, you know, tongue in cheek, talk about

01:49:44.020 --> 01:49:45.960
midlife crisis, you know, it always because you

01:49:45.960 --> 01:49:47.739
gain weight and you're balding and, you know,

01:49:47.739 --> 01:49:50.260
that's why you buy a sports car. I think a lot

01:49:50.260 --> 01:49:51.899
of that comes from the fact that a lot of parents

01:49:51.899 --> 01:49:53.979
probably do pour their heart and souls into their

01:49:53.979 --> 01:49:56.500
kids. And then one day they're on their own path,

01:49:56.640 --> 01:49:59.119
which is beautiful. But I'm starting to feel.

01:50:00.260 --> 01:50:02.359
The depression, the anxiety, just, you know,

01:50:02.380 --> 01:50:05.659
I mean, not in a massive way, but the realization

01:50:05.659 --> 01:50:09.220
that one day I'll wake up and he's out, you know,

01:50:09.220 --> 01:50:11.140
probably forging his own family in a few years.

01:50:11.220 --> 01:50:14.420
So what was the impact of that for you and your

01:50:14.420 --> 01:50:16.840
wife? Well, I think if you're a good parent.

01:50:17.340 --> 01:50:21.399
You then, then your kids are your center of your

01:50:21.399 --> 01:50:23.319
world. You know, if you're a good parent and

01:50:23.319 --> 01:50:25.180
that's a good, healthy thing, the way it should

01:50:25.180 --> 01:50:27.520
be. Now, the problem is, is that becomes your

01:50:27.520 --> 01:50:31.420
anchor, your, your, your true North, your, your

01:50:31.420 --> 01:50:34.939
guidepost for everything. It's your, it's that

01:50:34.939 --> 01:50:37.159
sale that keeps you on course, the rudder, whatever

01:50:37.159 --> 01:50:38.859
you want to call all the analogies you can make.

01:50:39.260 --> 01:50:44.140
And my wife, especially like she exists. for

01:50:44.140 --> 01:50:46.380
her her children i mean she is an amazing woman

01:50:46.380 --> 01:50:48.760
and and they are the center of her world and

01:50:48.760 --> 01:50:53.060
and uh and we talk about it in the book because

01:50:53.060 --> 01:50:58.460
when that goes if you are not on the same page

01:50:58.460 --> 01:51:00.340
with your spouse if you are not communicating

01:51:00.340 --> 01:51:02.520
well and on the and moving in the same direction

01:51:02.520 --> 01:51:05.319
with shared expectations and shared priorities

01:51:05.319 --> 01:51:08.380
then it's turbulence you are going to be you're

01:51:08.380 --> 01:51:10.060
going to be flapping in the wind as you try and

01:51:10.060 --> 01:51:11.939
hopefully you settle back in and figure things

01:51:11.939 --> 01:51:14.300
out and that's most people's journey But you

01:51:14.300 --> 01:51:16.960
can absolutely be deliberate about understanding

01:51:16.960 --> 01:51:20.359
what's coming and understanding that that has

01:51:20.359 --> 01:51:23.300
been your keel that has kept you even and moving

01:51:23.300 --> 01:51:26.560
smoothly, and that's about to be gone. And so

01:51:26.560 --> 01:51:30.939
for us, I had an uncle that's a little bit older

01:51:30.939 --> 01:51:35.680
than me, and he went through it. He had the same

01:51:35.680 --> 01:51:37.899
journey as me, got married very young, had kids

01:51:37.899 --> 01:51:39.819
very young. He's about 10 years older than me.

01:51:42.279 --> 01:51:44.239
And we were very close. And he told, you know,

01:51:44.260 --> 01:51:47.920
when their kids moved out, they almost got a

01:51:47.920 --> 01:51:49.840
divorce, basically. I mean, I might be I might

01:51:49.840 --> 01:51:52.020
be a little bit exaggerated, but they had a very

01:51:52.020 --> 01:51:54.340
tough time because all of a sudden everything

01:51:54.340 --> 01:51:57.520
they had in common was gone and they had to rediscover

01:51:57.520 --> 01:51:59.020
themselves. And that's a journey a lot of people

01:51:59.020 --> 01:52:02.760
go on. But because of their sharing the lesson

01:52:02.760 --> 01:52:05.420
with us, me and Amanda have been, I think, very

01:52:05.420 --> 01:52:09.039
smooth in our transition. And we had a graduated

01:52:09.039 --> 01:52:11.460
27 -year -old, 26 -year -old, 24 -year -old.

01:52:11.520 --> 01:52:16.539
So we kind of got a gradual introduction. And

01:52:16.539 --> 01:52:20.340
then grandparenthood, holy smokes. Every grandparent

01:52:20.340 --> 01:52:23.920
ever has told me. I'm very new to this. It's

01:52:23.920 --> 01:52:26.159
two months ago. He was supposed to be here two

01:52:26.159 --> 01:52:28.680
weeks ago. He showed up around Thanksgiving.

01:52:28.859 --> 01:52:31.420
So he was very early. Super healthy, everything

01:52:31.420 --> 01:52:35.560
great. That little, I call him my gorilla. He's

01:52:35.560 --> 01:52:38.060
my gorilla. And I'm telling you, I will, I just

01:52:38.060 --> 01:52:39.840
went over this morning and just so I could feed

01:52:39.840 --> 01:52:42.279
him and burp him. And, uh, before the podcast,

01:52:42.319 --> 01:52:46.020
because it's unreal, the difference. And I love

01:52:46.020 --> 01:52:48.260
my kids and I, and I think I was a good father

01:52:48.260 --> 01:52:50.479
and I was, you know, invested in them. And therefore

01:52:50.479 --> 01:52:54.319
it's different. Now I'm a different person and,

01:52:54.380 --> 01:52:56.859
and it's different. Okay. So I won't sit here

01:52:56.859 --> 01:52:59.850
and gush about being a grandpa. No, I'm glad

01:52:59.850 --> 01:53:01.109
I asked though, because this is just something

01:53:01.109 --> 01:53:02.550
that I've never really thought about talking

01:53:02.550 --> 01:53:04.529
about until very recently where it really hit

01:53:04.529 --> 01:53:07.170
me. And I think it's, you know, it's another

01:53:07.170 --> 01:53:10.010
part of the whole emotional mental health relationship

01:53:10.010 --> 01:53:12.850
story. And you're very, very strong in mental

01:53:12.850 --> 01:53:14.890
health. You have a very strong foundation. So

01:53:14.890 --> 01:53:17.229
you can talk to the wife and say, listen, this

01:53:17.229 --> 01:53:20.109
is coming. Let's, like we've already talked about,

01:53:20.149 --> 01:53:21.949
talking is the most important thing you can do

01:53:21.949 --> 01:53:24.510
about it. So talk about it. And you guys will

01:53:24.510 --> 01:53:26.890
be on the same page when it happens. So what

01:53:26.890 --> 01:53:29.580
you go through, you go through together. Absolutely.

01:53:29.580 --> 01:53:31.699
All right. Well, the very first of the closing

01:53:31.699 --> 01:53:35.279
questions, we talked about your books. Are there

01:53:35.279 --> 01:53:37.100
any books written by other people that you'd

01:53:37.100 --> 01:53:39.560
love to recommend? It can be related to our discussion

01:53:39.560 --> 01:53:45.000
or completely unrelated. Oh, brother. I'm reading

01:53:45.000 --> 01:53:46.699
Ray Dalio's Principles right now, and it's one

01:53:46.699 --> 01:53:49.180
of the best books I've read in so long. I've

01:53:49.180 --> 01:53:52.720
told this book to so many people, but as far

01:53:52.720 --> 01:53:56.140
as my recency bias. That book, because I'm reading

01:53:56.140 --> 01:53:58.260
it, I'm almost finished with it. I've been reading

01:53:58.260 --> 01:54:00.000
it. It's almost like a devotional. I have to

01:54:00.000 --> 01:54:01.880
go back and revisit it. Such an amazing book

01:54:01.880 --> 01:54:04.260
as far as being an effective person. And on that

01:54:04.260 --> 01:54:06.420
vein, you get me talking about books. I'll talk

01:54:06.420 --> 01:54:07.659
for an hour. So you got to shut me down when

01:54:07.659 --> 01:54:09.380
you want to shut me down. Seven Habits, Highly

01:54:09.380 --> 01:54:11.779
Effective People by Stephen Covey. I credit that

01:54:11.779 --> 01:54:15.260
book to the book that changed me being a wishy

01:54:15.260 --> 01:54:18.520
-washy ADHD, chasing everything to actually being

01:54:18.520 --> 01:54:22.060
effective because of the principles in that book.

01:54:22.819 --> 01:54:26.680
The Culture Code, Daniel Coyle. It makes – if

01:54:26.680 --> 01:54:34.520
you want to understand how to – why some places

01:54:34.520 --> 01:54:37.960
thrive and others are just toxic. Man, the culture

01:54:37.960 --> 01:54:41.659
code really – it encapsulates – another one of

01:54:41.659 --> 01:54:43.079
my favorite books is Leaders Eat Last, Simon

01:54:43.079 --> 01:54:46.319
Sinek. Phenomenal book. Great book. And it's

01:54:46.319 --> 01:54:49.070
why some teams succeed while others fail. But

01:54:49.070 --> 01:54:51.069
Simon Sinek and Culture Code, I kind of, they're

01:54:51.069 --> 01:54:54.069
very similar books. Culture Code is like a diet,

01:54:54.130 --> 01:54:56.369
diet's the wrong words. I don't mean it like

01:54:56.369 --> 01:54:59.369
it's watered down. It's like a easier to digest

01:54:59.369 --> 01:55:01.529
version of Simon Sinek's Leaders Eat Last. So,

01:55:01.529 --> 01:55:05.270
man, I could keep going. I could look, but I'll

01:55:05.270 --> 01:55:07.949
leave it at, those are all, and I'm very big

01:55:07.949 --> 01:55:10.829
on culture, organizational culture, self -determination

01:55:10.829 --> 01:55:14.050
theory, and understanding human motivation. Those

01:55:14.050 --> 01:55:16.109
are big ones for me that I really like to dig

01:55:16.109 --> 01:55:19.020
into. Beautiful. So I'll leave them on there.

01:55:19.680 --> 01:55:21.699
Excellent. All right. And then what about films

01:55:21.699 --> 01:55:24.819
and documentaries that you love? Probably my

01:55:24.819 --> 01:55:30.119
favorite. I'm a nerd, so I love all things sci

01:55:30.119 --> 01:55:33.279
-fi fantasy. And there's very, very little good

01:55:33.279 --> 01:55:36.579
sci -fi fantasy. So I say that written word.

01:55:36.640 --> 01:55:38.680
There's amazing stuff. Brandon Sanderson, I love.

01:55:38.779 --> 01:55:41.359
But that's books again. As far as movies, documentaries,

01:55:41.619 --> 01:55:45.829
I love Band of Brothers. The book also amazing

01:55:45.829 --> 01:55:48.770
by Ambrose, but there's so many lessons in band

01:55:48.770 --> 01:55:50.390
of brothers. In fact, I love it so much. I've

01:55:50.390 --> 01:55:52.310
seen it. Probably. I've probably literally seen

01:55:52.310 --> 01:55:56.109
all 10 episodes a dozen times and I own it on

01:55:56.109 --> 01:55:58.149
Amazon so I can stream it anytime. But if a new

01:55:58.149 --> 01:56:01.069
rookie gets assigned to station one, I'll ask

01:56:01.069 --> 01:56:02.850
him, have you seen band of brothers? And they'll

01:56:02.850 --> 01:56:04.649
be like, especially now. No. What are you talking

01:56:04.649 --> 01:56:06.229
about? I'm like, all right, sweet. And we'll

01:56:06.229 --> 01:56:08.029
watch it together because it's just, it's just

01:56:08.029 --> 01:56:10.390
a Dick winners and his leadership principles

01:56:10.390 --> 01:56:14.039
is just phenomenal. I'm not a huge documentary

01:56:14.039 --> 01:56:16.239
person. My wife will watch every documentary

01:56:16.239 --> 01:56:19.619
under the sun. I'm not a big television person.

01:56:20.020 --> 01:56:23.460
In fact, if it wasn't for streaming services,

01:56:23.659 --> 01:56:26.739
we don't have any cable or anything like that

01:56:26.739 --> 01:56:29.340
just because I just don't take the time to do

01:56:29.340 --> 01:56:31.300
it. At the fire station, when they decide to

01:56:31.300 --> 01:56:34.000
watch a movie, I have to be intentional about

01:56:34.000 --> 01:56:35.319
hanging out with them and watching the movie

01:56:35.319 --> 01:56:37.699
because I'm like, I got better things to do.

01:56:38.060 --> 01:56:40.920
I like a good movie for entertainment, but I

01:56:40.920 --> 01:56:44.859
have to do it on purpose. I can relate to that.

01:56:44.920 --> 01:56:46.920
Band of Brothers is phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal.

01:56:47.600 --> 01:56:50.039
I think we talked about it in your show, the

01:56:50.039 --> 01:56:52.220
book I just wrote, Kinder. That's kind of the

01:56:52.220 --> 01:56:54.979
analogy that I'm using is the fire service version

01:56:54.979 --> 01:56:57.319
of Band of Brothers. Something raw and gritty

01:56:57.319 --> 01:56:59.680
with its takeaways and you sit around the firehouse

01:56:59.680 --> 01:57:01.619
talking about it after going, oh, I never thought

01:57:01.619 --> 01:57:03.359
of it that way. Are you going to have Kinder

01:57:03.359 --> 01:57:06.720
made into a miniseries? That's my goal. That's

01:57:06.720 --> 01:57:10.100
awesome. No, that'll be phenomenal. We'll have

01:57:10.100 --> 01:57:13.619
to have a discussion of who gets cast for each

01:57:13.619 --> 01:57:16.859
role. Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited. I mean,

01:57:16.880 --> 01:57:19.079
I know people that are in that industry. So it's

01:57:19.079 --> 01:57:21.500
just a case now of them reading it and hoping

01:57:21.500 --> 01:57:23.800
that they're hooked by it. But I mean, I've said

01:57:23.800 --> 01:57:26.659
this many times. We're just not represented properly

01:57:26.659 --> 01:57:29.859
on TV or in film. You know, I think Ladder 49

01:57:29.859 --> 01:57:32.079
was phenomenal. I think Only the Brave was phenomenal.

01:57:32.720 --> 01:57:34.619
Backdraft, you know, For Its Time was great.

01:57:35.680 --> 01:57:37.739
But I mean, on television, you know, I'd say

01:57:37.739 --> 01:57:40.000
maybe the first episode of the first season of

01:57:40.000 --> 01:57:42.439
Rescue Me was, you know, probably. But that's

01:57:42.439 --> 01:57:44.500
not firing EMS together either, you know. So

01:57:44.500 --> 01:57:47.020
and then you got Chicago Fire and Tacoma FD.

01:57:47.439 --> 01:57:50.260
So you've got models saving other models, or

01:57:50.260 --> 01:57:52.699
you've got fat and lazy firefighters doing firehouse

01:57:52.699 --> 01:57:55.619
pranks all day. So I think there's space for

01:57:55.619 --> 01:57:57.380
a band of brothers for the fire service that

01:57:57.380 --> 01:58:00.220
really sows some seeds and shows the public what

01:58:00.220 --> 01:58:02.579
we actually do. And therefore, hopefully, we'll

01:58:02.579 --> 01:58:05.739
increase the support when we're asking for changes

01:58:05.739 --> 01:58:08.800
that will save our lives and allow us to save

01:58:08.800 --> 01:58:11.920
theirs. managed to pull off doing especially

01:58:11.920 --> 01:58:14.680
with kinder's uh whole mission and story the

01:58:14.680 --> 01:58:17.479
the whole arc uh if you pull it off it will be

01:58:17.479 --> 01:58:20.520
it'll be a game changer and i i i'm 100 with

01:58:20.520 --> 01:58:22.439
you there's a massive hole that needs to be filled

01:58:22.439 --> 01:58:24.779
with it if it's done right it will be amazing

01:58:24.779 --> 01:58:28.380
absolutely yeah let me know what i can do to

01:58:28.380 --> 01:58:30.720
to push it i wish i had your network i would

01:58:30.720 --> 01:58:33.880
i would push but yeah yeah well we'll see it's

01:58:33.880 --> 01:58:36.500
probably an all -hands job as they say so All

01:58:36.500 --> 01:58:38.220
right. Well, then the next question, I mean,

01:58:38.239 --> 01:58:40.260
you've had so many people on your show as well.

01:58:40.399 --> 01:58:43.180
Is there a person you'd recommend to come on

01:58:43.180 --> 01:58:46.100
this podcast as a guest to speak to the first

01:58:46.100 --> 01:58:48.119
responders, military and associated professions

01:58:48.119 --> 01:58:50.659
of the world? Man, I'm pretty sure you've had

01:58:50.659 --> 01:58:53.859
Frank Viscuso on. Yes. Okay. I was going to say,

01:58:53.899 --> 01:58:56.079
I'm afraid everybody I say you've probably had

01:58:56.079 --> 01:59:00.180
on because you're a millennium worth of episodes.

01:59:01.840 --> 01:59:04.739
Oh, good Lord. To speak to military first responders.

01:59:05.579 --> 01:59:09.199
I wish I would have done a better research. Frank

01:59:09.199 --> 01:59:11.880
Lieb, have you had Frank Lieb on yet? I just

01:59:11.880 --> 01:59:13.579
interviewed him for the second time with Dean

01:59:13.579 --> 01:59:15.720
Ali, talking about their new... Yeah, mental

01:59:15.720 --> 01:59:19.460
health and his whole new... I want to keep saying

01:59:19.460 --> 01:59:21.739
people because, yeah, that's my fault. I should...

01:59:21.739 --> 01:59:24.460
Well, I'll tell you a couple. Firstly, I need

01:59:24.460 --> 01:59:27.479
to reach out to Dave McGill. Oh, if you haven't

01:59:27.479 --> 01:59:30.150
had Dave McGill, Dave McGill's phenomenal. Brian

01:59:30.150 --> 01:59:32.229
Brush is another one that keeps coming up that

01:59:32.229 --> 01:59:34.850
I haven't reached out to yet. Yeah, sorry. That's

01:59:34.850 --> 01:59:37.329
me locking up on my brain because there are so

01:59:37.329 --> 01:59:41.289
many good ones that I've had on just to be, you

01:59:41.289 --> 01:59:45.569
know, yeah, 100%. Brian Brush, Dave McGrail,

01:59:45.729 --> 01:59:49.810
out of California, Eric Saylors. I don't know

01:59:49.810 --> 01:59:52.609
if you've had Eric Saylors on. I have not. Holy

01:59:52.609 --> 01:59:54.529
smokes, dude. He is one of my favorite interviews.

01:59:56.489 --> 02:00:00.170
He is brilliant, first of all. I don't know how

02:00:00.170 --> 02:00:05.869
many doctorates he has. He'll tell you, do you

02:00:05.869 --> 02:00:08.090
want to talk to Eric the Viking? Because his

02:00:08.090 --> 02:00:10.250
Nordic heritage, or do you want to talk to Dr.

02:00:10.449 --> 02:00:13.869
Saylors? And again, phenomenal person. He headed

02:00:13.869 --> 02:00:16.569
a seven -year study on mass casualty incidents

02:00:16.569 --> 02:00:19.109
and the findings from dealing with them. It's

02:00:19.109 --> 02:00:20.949
a phenomenal interview. It's one of my favorite

02:00:20.949 --> 02:00:22.390
scraps. I pass it out all the time. It has a

02:00:22.390 --> 02:00:24.789
ton of value. But that by itself is a phenomenal

02:00:24.789 --> 02:00:27.329
discussion. His doctorate thesis, I believe I

02:00:27.329 --> 02:00:30.710
could be getting the terminology wrong, was over

02:00:30.710 --> 02:00:34.310
quantifying the value of a person on a rig and

02:00:34.310 --> 02:00:36.810
actually put numbers to it to saying this is

02:00:36.810 --> 02:00:38.789
how much it's worth to a city. And I can prove

02:00:38.789 --> 02:00:41.189
it with numbers, putting a fourth person on a

02:00:41.189 --> 02:00:43.350
rig instead of having three man rigs. And that

02:00:43.350 --> 02:00:45.750
whole discussion, he's phenomenal. He's a real

02:00:45.750 --> 02:00:48.270
big brain person. And but also a fun interview

02:00:48.270 --> 02:00:51.010
at the same time. If you haven't had him, someone

02:00:51.010 --> 02:00:54.319
just had him on. I think it was. fire nuggets

02:00:54.319 --> 02:00:57.420
that just had him on and again i've had him on

02:00:57.420 --> 02:00:59.859
twice and i can't say that enough he's one of

02:00:59.859 --> 02:01:02.220
my favorite interviews brilliant well i always

02:01:02.220 --> 02:01:03.939
if i get him on i always listen to other people's

02:01:03.939 --> 02:01:05.880
podcasts to prepare so i'll make sure i listen

02:01:05.880 --> 02:01:07.560
to yours because then it sounds like you know

02:01:07.560 --> 02:01:09.359
you really got into the weeds with him which

02:01:09.359 --> 02:01:12.039
is brilliant no and his mass casualty stuff is

02:01:12.039 --> 02:01:15.800
game changing for response because they they

02:01:15.800 --> 02:01:17.380
threw everything out the window and said why

02:01:17.380 --> 02:01:18.939
are we doing this and looked at what's actually

02:01:18.939 --> 02:01:22.159
effective anyway i could talk sorry No, I don't

02:01:22.159 --> 02:01:24.000
apologize. That's amazing. I appreciate all the

02:01:24.000 --> 02:01:26.659
suggestions. And I'll think of 25 more people

02:01:26.659 --> 02:01:28.399
after I'm done. I'm like, why didn't I say? Why

02:01:28.399 --> 02:01:30.760
didn't I say? McGrail, Brush, Sailors, go. All

02:01:30.760 --> 02:01:33.220
right. Absolutely. All right. Well, the last

02:01:33.220 --> 02:01:35.159
question before we make sure everyone knows where

02:01:35.159 --> 02:01:38.199
to find you, you know, Firehouse Vigilance and

02:01:38.199 --> 02:01:40.840
all the books. What do you do to decompress?

02:01:41.960 --> 02:01:44.600
I love, and that makes me more of a nerd. I love

02:01:44.600 --> 02:01:48.439
video games. I really do. And not just, and actually

02:01:48.439 --> 02:01:51.479
I was a gamer, a big gamer nerd younger, but

02:01:51.479 --> 02:01:53.779
I don't really play any single player games or

02:01:53.779 --> 02:01:55.619
anything. I play a lot of games with my kiddos

02:01:55.619 --> 02:01:57.920
because that's how we stay connected actually.

02:01:59.260 --> 02:02:01.659
through discord we get on and we'll chat while

02:02:01.659 --> 02:02:04.819
we play and it's a i i i'm one of the things

02:02:04.819 --> 02:02:06.939
i'm most proud of as an adult male is that my

02:02:06.939 --> 02:02:09.659
kids still will log in and play a game with me

02:02:09.659 --> 02:02:12.439
and we'll we'll go kick some kids asses you know

02:02:12.439 --> 02:02:15.100
together and play some games which games do you

02:02:15.100 --> 02:02:17.140
like the most you do a lot of league of legends

02:02:17.140 --> 02:02:19.260
honestly uh the i don't know if you know anything

02:02:19.260 --> 02:02:21.159
about mobas or anything like that but like i

02:02:21.159 --> 02:02:23.920
said i'll get nerdy with it uh some first person

02:02:23.920 --> 02:02:26.460
shooters um i got kicked out of call of duty

02:02:26.460 --> 02:02:29.899
for being a cheater and It wouldn't be so bad,

02:02:29.960 --> 02:02:33.000
except I wasn't a cheater. But they kicked me.

02:02:33.039 --> 02:02:36.539
They banned my account. And I refused to buy

02:02:36.539 --> 02:02:39.640
another copy of the game because if I'd have

02:02:39.640 --> 02:02:41.840
been cheating, I'd buy another account. But you

02:02:41.840 --> 02:02:44.359
can look at how terrible I was at the game. And

02:02:44.359 --> 02:02:47.119
if I was cheating, I was the world's worst cheater.

02:02:47.260 --> 02:02:48.859
So anyway, they kicked me out for being a hacker.

02:02:49.840 --> 02:02:52.159
So that was one we would play first -person shooters.

02:02:52.399 --> 02:02:54.579
Anything that we could kind of just disconnect

02:02:54.579 --> 02:02:58.979
and play without having to do a lot of. I guess

02:02:58.979 --> 02:03:00.880
we also play Civilization quite a bit, which

02:03:00.880 --> 02:03:03.260
is a world domination game that's quite a bit

02:03:03.260 --> 02:03:07.039
of fun. But anyway, sorry. That is my number

02:03:07.039 --> 02:03:10.939
one relaxation thing. Besides me and the wife,

02:03:11.100 --> 02:03:15.140
now that we're empty nesters, we love to go and

02:03:15.140 --> 02:03:17.119
sit at a restaurant, but we'll go sit at the

02:03:17.119 --> 02:03:19.439
bar. And it's not that we're just getting...

02:03:19.439 --> 02:03:22.640
In fact, I'm actually sober since August 8th,

02:03:22.640 --> 02:03:24.720
mainly because I'm trying to get more physically

02:03:24.720 --> 02:03:27.319
fit. You know, it's just it's not really an alcohol

02:03:27.319 --> 02:03:29.579
related thing so much as although the benefits

02:03:29.579 --> 02:03:32.460
of not drinking is phenomenal. It's not really

02:03:32.460 --> 02:03:34.979
for that reason. I'm trying to lose my beer belly.

02:03:35.159 --> 02:03:38.899
And so long story short is we'll go sit at the

02:03:38.899 --> 02:03:40.979
bar because we'd love to just sit and decompress

02:03:40.979 --> 02:03:43.500
and we'll connect with each other there. And

02:03:43.500 --> 02:03:45.039
the service at the bar is phenomenal. You don't

02:03:45.039 --> 02:03:46.220
have to wait for the waiter or anything like

02:03:46.220 --> 02:03:47.939
that. And so that's one of our favorite things

02:03:47.939 --> 02:03:51.529
to do. Love it. Yes. With the video game, I got

02:03:51.529 --> 02:03:54.369
my Instagram shut down last year for posting

02:03:54.369 --> 02:03:57.270
kindness videos. I was told that it, you know,

02:03:57.289 --> 02:03:59.130
copyright infringement, all kinds of stuff. And

02:03:59.130 --> 02:04:00.369
I'm like, I've been doing this for eight years,

02:04:00.529 --> 02:04:03.569
9000 videos and all of a sudden now. And it wasn't

02:04:03.569 --> 02:04:05.770
even like this is your first strike. It was like,

02:04:05.770 --> 02:04:08.529
boom. So, yeah, there's a lot of shady shit behind

02:04:08.529 --> 02:04:09.869
the scenes of some of those. But what are you

02:04:09.869 --> 02:04:11.369
going to do? It's their it's their platform.

02:04:11.529 --> 02:04:13.529
You can't really think about it. So, no, that's

02:04:13.529 --> 02:04:16.569
yeah, that's terrible. I mean, it is what it

02:04:16.569 --> 02:04:19.050
is, but yeah, 200 ,000 people and then that down

02:04:19.050 --> 02:04:21.909
to, to, you know, working more up to 2000. So,

02:04:21.909 --> 02:04:26.130
yeah, but again, it's, you know, it's a, it's

02:04:26.130 --> 02:04:28.010
a social media platform. Yes. It was helpful,

02:04:28.189 --> 02:04:30.229
but it's not the nucleus of the project. The

02:04:30.229 --> 02:04:33.609
podcast is. All right. Well then for people listening,

02:04:33.770 --> 02:04:36.409
where are the best places to find you and everything

02:04:36.409 --> 02:04:40.609
that you do online and or social media? Firehousevigilance

02:04:40.609 --> 02:04:42.989
.com. We'll have links to everything. It's the

02:04:42.989 --> 02:04:46.029
one stop. place to get everything mainly the

02:04:46.029 --> 02:04:47.810
pdf of the book of search it's the best place

02:04:47.810 --> 02:04:49.710
to find it although it's everywhere any place

02:04:49.710 --> 02:04:52.729
you can find it um social media if you search

02:04:52.729 --> 02:04:54.989
for firehouse vigilance you should see it should

02:04:54.989 --> 02:04:57.369
not be an issue and then the weekly scrap that's

02:04:57.369 --> 02:04:59.550
the one thing i didn't brand well was the podcast

02:04:59.550 --> 02:05:01.750
is is is the weekly scrap but