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the code BTN. Welcome to the Behind the Shield
podcast. As always, my name is James Gearing,
and this week it is my absolute honor to welcome
on the show veteran firefighter and the man behind
firehouse vigilance, Corley Moore. So in this
conversation, we discuss a host of topics from
his journey into the fire service, leadership,
fitness standards, mental health, his podcast,
The Weekly Scrap, The Book of Search, firefighter
marriage, and so much more. Now, before we get
to this incredible conversation, as I say every
week, please just take a moment, go to whichever
app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show.
Leave feedback and leave a rating. Every single
five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast,
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And this is a free library of well over 1 ,000
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you help share these incredible men and women's
stories so I can get them to every single person
on planet Earth who needs to hear them. So with
that being said, I introduce to you... Corley
Moore. Enjoy. Well, Corley, I want to start by
saying two things. Firstly, thank you for having
me on your show, The Weekly Scrap. I think it
was a couple weeks ago now, if that. Amazing
conversation. And secondly, I'm glad I get to
turn the microphone on you now and welcome you
onto the Behind the Shield podcast. Hi, brother.
I'm excited to be here. We had a great conversation
when you came on, and your mission is amazing.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, blown away. Go ahead.
So where on planet Earth are we finding you this
afternoon? I am home in Oklahoma, right outside
of Oklahoma City. Smack dab in the middle, the
heartland. Beautiful. Well, I would have to start
at the very beginning of your early life because
I know you've got an interesting upbringing.
Tell me where you were born and tell me a little
bit about your family dynamic, what your parents
did, how many siblings. I was born in Farmington,
New Mexico. which is the northwestern corner
of New Mexico. It's the Four Corners area where
you can stand in four states at once. That's
where I was born, but I was raised in Oklahoma,
Oklahoma City, Southside. And that's, like you
said, a very interesting childhood. My father
is probably the most influential person on my
life. I guess that's kind of an understatement,
you know, if you had a father involved in your
life. He was a very unique individual. I know
that I get some of my wanderlust from his influence
on my life. When I was born, two years old, he
was a missionary to Australia. So my first year
of life was in Australia. I don't remember any
of it. I've got pictures of me. you know, at,
at a Australia petty zoo wrestling, like a baby
kangaroo type thing, but I have no memory of
it, but two years or the first year of my life
was in Australia. And then he came back here.
He was a U S he got involved in politics. He
was a state Senator in Oklahoma. He built a 40
foot boat that was, that is now doing missionary
work in, uh, the Caribbean, not the Caribbean.
Yeah. Yeah. Down in the Caribbean seas there.
The anyway, uh, There is so much that he has
done that's just, he's a dreamer that chased
dreams, and that's kind of had a lot of big influence
on me. When you, if you had the opportunity,
explore the upbringing that he had, what was
it about his childhood that gave him such wonderlust
and innovation? Ooh, that's a great question.
I don't know if I've ever dug in to figure out
why he was wired the way he was. Because like
many, many young men, I went through a phase
where I resented him and said, I will not do
the things that he did. And then as you grow
and mature, you realize you grow and gain a respect
for what he instilled in you and things like
that. But I don't know if I've ever actually
won. Because I know he was raised, he's very
open. He was raised by a single mom. He did not
know his father. And I don't know what the influences
were. That's a great question. And make me get
a little introspective. I may have to look into
that. Good, good. I like supplying some of these
seeds. It's interesting when you hear a lot of
people that have had, you know, whatever that
struggle looks like early in life. And, you know,
they're at that kind of crossroads. They could
have gone, you know, wayward or they could have
gone down a good path. More often than not, there
are mentors. So it'd be interesting to see kind
of who the figures were. you know, that were
filling in that void of the father figure that
maybe steered him in that good direction? No
doubt. That is a great question. So what about
your mom? What was she doing profession -wise?
Professionally -wise, she was a professional
mother. Like she raised us. I had five siblings.
And so she had her hands full without a doubt.
And between my dad traveled a lot with the family.
So it wasn't like he went and traveled and we
stayed home. We traveled a lot. A lot of my very
young years was my father would preach at a different
church every Sunday. So he would pull a travel
trailer. We would preach on Sunday morning. Travel
to another church, you know, two hours away,
preach that Sunday night, travel to another church
over the next couple of days. I've been to 40,
I want to say 48 states of the union and in a
travel trailer with my family, you know, in my
young formative years. And so it was a very unique
upbringing. And my mom was the rock that kept
us all, you know, she raised six very, what do
you want to call it? Contributing members of
society. Pretty good track record. I'm one of
five, so I can relate to that. We were already
feral farm kids, but we all turned out okay,
I think. Right. That's a great description. So,
well, with that, one of the quotes that I always
butcher, but I think it's John Steinbeck, and
it's something like the enemy of prejudice is
traveling. With you having this diverse lens,
not only within the US, but even though you might
not remember Australia being raised by parents
that were travelers. How has that changed your
perception on the States or even the world? Man,
I always have taken it for granted. You know,
these are great introspective, getting deep into
it. I've always just taken it for granted that
I understood the different regions and that there's
silos that exist and there's... tribalism and,
and, you know, and I've always kind of, I guess
I kind of took it for granted that I just understood
that those existed. Cause I kind of just crossed
those boundaries a lot younger. Did that carry
over into the fire service? The reason I asked
that my career started, well trained in Orlando
first was Hialeah by Miami, then Anaheim, California,
then orange County, Florida, and then a Reedy
Creek, one of the text Disney world. And so I
had East coast, West coast. I had, you know,
quite affluent quite poor i had arguably one
of the best fire departments one of the worst
i'll let everyone figure out which is which um
but it really gave me this kind of you know 10
whatever they say thousand foot view of the fire
service and you really started to see the silos
and the lack of communication how did your kind
of national perspective factor in when you started
seeing different fire departments maybe not communicating
the way they should no i think that that it definitely
A, when I got on the fire service, I was very
young. I was 20 years old. I knew everything
like every 20 year old does. I was the smartest
person in every room. So I thought, and I had
to learn and mature and figure out that I didn't
know near as much as I thought I did. And so
I really didn't appreciate a lot of the, I think
the background added to the maturation when it
finally came to fruition. And I'm very, I'm very
Johnny come lately to the traveling. and visiting
different fire services because Firehouse Vigilance
has only been around since 2018. And so it's
not like it's been a long, long journey, which
is crazy to say now because it's been six years,
but it's almost seven. Man, I'm losing track
of time. But it's crazy how quickly it stacks
up. But even that, when it started, it's only
been over the last few years that I've started
traveling and seeing the different departments.
And I think that it is that paradigm shift that
kind of you realize, oh, I'm understanding this
better because of the background. If that makes
sense. But I never took the background into it
thinking I'm going to understand this better.
It's more of a hindsight than it is a projection.
Yeah, I was just amazed when I really kind of
took a step back and, you know, especially on
the wellness side, started to try and bring solutions
to problems that, you know, there are international
organizations or national, excuse me, you know,
whether it's unions or chiefs organizations or
whatever. But there wasn't this communication.
And I would see time and time again. in the bad,
you know, the departments that weren't well led,
let me put it that way, where, you know, police
and fire wouldn't talk or county and city wouldn't
talk. And I just remember going, what the fuck
is going on here? These are a bunch of grownups
who have to serve and lives are in their hands
and they're not talking to each other. And that's
when I had this aha moment of, you know, the
good departments like Anaheim, I'll put that
there. They were part of something called Northnet.
All the surrounding agencies would train together
in the Central Fire Academy. You know, we do,
you know, whether it's classroom, whether it
was hands on training. And so there was this
kind of mutual aid that was just assumed, you
know, amongst all these cities. And the same
with PD. We do drills with PD. You know, they'd
come to the station. And, you know, that was,
to me, the gold standard of how it should be.
But this lack of communication and sometimes,
you know, almost like narcissism, ego is getting
in the way. Other places. Like, you know, the
fire station would be downstairs, the police
station would be upstairs, and they never even
spoke to each other. It was just mind -blowing.
So seeing that, it's not just an empty criticism.
It's like, all right, well, we've seen what it's
supposed to look like. How can we now get these
other agencies to understand this is the kind
of interaction that, God forbid, you have a school
shooting or a tornado. Yes, some sort of disaster.
And the crazy part, James, is that it's actually...
better now than it's ever been because of you
know as bad as social media can be and as bad
as as the negatives of the internets like we
are the silos are being torn down because of
the the world is shrinking because of the internet
and the social media And so it's actually better
now than it was, which is crazy to think about
because there's still places where they will
drive into their jurisdiction and stop their
rig and watch something burn because that's where
their jurisdiction ends. And it's crazy to me
that that still exists, especially in this world.
Tactics and strategies and best practices and
UL and FSRI studies and the information is out
there. So it's crazy to me that it still exists.
And we're in the best place that we've ever been
for fixing it. And the fact of... The matter
is, like you said, you've seen what it can be,
and then you also see the reality of what it's
like in some places. Absolutely. Well, going
back to your early life, we'll kind of walk through
into the fire service. What about sports and
exercise? What were you playing and doing when
you were a kid? I loved football. Now, because
of the traveling, I never... got to play i i
there was this period where i got to play some
little league football for a little bit uh around
age 10 11 and then i did not get to play a lot
of team sports but i loved loved loved football
so i was literally the kid that would go out
and play football with by himself I would throw
it up in the air and go catch it as cheesy as
that sounds. I literally would. Cause we'd be,
you know, we'd pull into a church and my dad
was going to preach there the next day. And I
had a Saturday evening to kill. So I'd go to
the park that was nearby or the field or whatever.
And I would play football with myself. And, uh,
and that was also part of it because I would
meet kids the next day at the church. And then
we'd spend a day there and, and, and they're
the single serving friends that, you know, boom,
you get to have the friend that day. And then
you're. leaving and traveling but uh no football
was i loved football in fact i was going to be
a football player i was going to go to college
and play football i was never good enough so
that's that's a whole separate issue but i did
love uh american tackle football so i gotta say
it that way did you ever were you ever a part
of an organization where that's what you were
doing like all school all college or did you
find yourself playing at a level where you weren't
so entrenched that you lost that love of the
sport I played at the high school level whenever
we were actually settled down and weren't traveling
as much during my high school years. And I got
to play at the high school level, but I loved
it. I loved it. Now, the team was not a good
team. We weren't competitive even, you know,
but I did love it. In fact, we had so few players
that you had to basically, once the game started,
you never left. Offense, defense, there was no,
you just played the entire time just to finish
the game. And there was no winning the game.
It was just playing. And so you really had to
love the game because it was just getting your
teeth kicked in week after week. And, you know,
the victories were, oh, we scored. You know,
that was a victory. And no complaints because
I got to play. And I loved it. But I don't think
anything ever dimmed it other than as I got out
of high school. And I wanted to I wanted to move
on and go, but I wasn't good enough. That's not
the point. I didn't understand that then. But
I also got married very young, had kids very
young and had responsibilities very young. And
so that had that that little dream, as unrealistic
as it was, had to die. Well, it's interesting
because I speak to a lot of high level athletes,
a lot of coaches and strength conditioning coaches
and. All of them, hands down, all of them say
that the specialization of sport in our children
has got to the point where it's detrimental,
whether it's the money for the parents, whether
it's the wear and tear on the child and then
entering, you know, as I've seen many times in
the States, the Uncle Rico's, you know, it could
have, should have, would have been. But when
you see people that were multi -sport athletes,
or in your case, you love football and you got
to play most of the game. rather than being on
the bench because you're not the number one seed
in whatever position. I think that's really where
we need to get back to again. That way the kids
love the sport because as one coach was saying
to me just the other day, if they're destined
to be incredible at the sport, they will emerge.
They'll be the tall poppy and then they can send
them down the higher level of coaching. But to
destroy the love of play by this kind of elitist
mentality that you've got to win rather than
these kids are enjoying the game. I think that's
something that we do well to revisit. I think
there is a level for sports where you can teach
those life lessons of effort and reward and the
value of leaving it all out there and everything
like that. I think there's a level where that
starts to become the lesson you learn. But below
that level, and I would say that's the upper
level of high school. Below that level, I would
say you need to teach them to love the sport.
You need to give them a responsibility on the
team. and then let them fulfill and fail at that
responsibility and then coach them up and beat.
There's too many little league coaches out there
that think they're Vince Lombardi, that honestly
think they're playing for the Super Bowl, and
they are destroying kids' passion instead of
developing it. And it's very sad. And I don't
want to put it just on the coaches because the
parents do it. I mean, it's a – it's a trap to
fall into that you think your kid, you know,
just let them love and play the game. And if
they're destined for greatness, I promise you
it will, it will come out. You're not going to,
you're not going to develop your kid into the
next Patrick Mahomes, you know, you're not. And
so anyway. Yeah, no, I agree. I just, I shared
a video of a 13 year old rapper today. This kid
has the same skills of any of the adult rappers
I've ever listened to. And I was big into hip
hop, especially in the 90s. That obviously is
that kid's calling. So he's going to excel and
probably get in a record deal. He will rise above.
That's that's a gift, you know. But then, you
know, sure, there's lots of kids that like to
rap. And if I try to rap in, it would be a laughingstock.
But if you really enjoy rapping, then rap. And
I think that's the point is, you know, yeah,
you shouldn't not do it just because you're not
going to be the best in the world. Right. There's
levels. There's levels to it. And you should
love and have passion for the level you're at.
And that should be encouraged. That should be
encouraged, not destroyed. So I'll leave it at
that. There's a lot of scar tissue associated
with Little League football and whatnot. Yeah.
Well, I mean, even if you could carry that to
the fire service, you know, I mean, you have
the guys that, you know, ridicule the rookies
because they don't know how to do X, Y or Z.
And you listen to someone like Al Benjamin that
I had on years ago, FDNY Rescue One firefighter,
true, true senior firefighter. And they're all
about lifting these people up. Now, yeah, of
course, if you don't get it on the fourth or
fifth, you know, then you have to start drawing
a line. But, you know, ridiculing someone because
they don't know how to do a certain thing rather
than just taking the time to teach them. Again,
you're going to keep that fire burning for the
love of the job. But if you're constantly just
pounding them really because of your own, you
know, inadequacies. Inadequacies, ego and deficiency.
And to Benjamin's point, it's and even to the
little league coaches, give them a responsibility,
give them an expectation, let them succeed or
fail. And then if they fail, coach them up so
that they can exceed it. And if they exceed it,
praise them. But the last thing they need is
no expectations or cloudy expectations and then
get beat down because they didn't meet them.
And that's where a lot of misplaced, I don't
know what you call it. They call it accountability
or discipline. It's not accountability or discipline.
It's compliance and harassment, you know, and
that's all it is. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I think
mentorship is the answer. You know, let me show
you how to do it. I grew up on a farm in England,
but I still didn't know how to take a chainsaw
apart and certainly didn't know how to cut a
roof. You know, we cut wood, but we didn't, you
know, stand on a burning building three stories
in the air. So, yeah, I mean, even with some
kind of agricultural and hands on experience.
There were so many things that I didn't know
that other men and women showed me how to do.
And you came in ahead of the game because of
your farm upbringing. So just imagine a kid who's
never even seen a lawnmower that has a pool start
coming into the fire service. And if you beat
them down for that, then shame on you. Shame
on you, plain and simple. It's like, no, they
don't know how to do it, so teach them. Absolutely.
I've had a lot of the veteran leaders say...
The number of times they've gone to the new guys
and said, hey, I can't get my iPhone to work
properly. Or, you know, I mean, this is the thing.
It's knowledge sharing. Absolutely. And Einstein's
credited with the quote, if you judge a fish
by its ability to climb a tree, you know, then
everyone's an idiot. And of course, I'll join
you in bastardizing quotes all day long. All
right. Well, then back to your career aspirations.
When you were in high school, were you dreaming
of the fire service already? Or was there something
else? No, no. I was never. I've always. It's
kind of hard to explain, but I've always thought
firefighting was just cool. I just thought it
was cool. I never thought I was going to be a
firefighter. So there's a small difference. I
remember I had these memories of me sitting in
the station wagon, looking up, and a fire truck
pulls up and stops next to us. And it was an
open cab. He's sitting on the doghouse looking
backwards in the jump seat. And I just looking
up there at him going, that's fucking cool. Maybe
not in those words as a kid. That was the mindset.
And so it was always there, but I was never,
it was never like I was going to be a firefighter.
In fact, coming out of high school, I was working
really low wage jobs, low skill labor jobs, a
lot of construction. And I did not know what
I was going to do with my life. I really, I was
kind of one of those just kind of, Oh, well you
got a job. I can work it. Okay. This is a lot
of remodel work and commercial remodel work.
And then yeah, low wage jobs. So how did that
take you into the fire service? My father, he
was he's always been a preacher, missionary,
Sunday school teacher. He's always been involved
in church ministry and politics in some way,
shape or form. And he was a Sunday school teacher
at his current church teaching adults. And at
the time, a fire chief was actually taking his
adult Sunday school class. You know, Sunday school
sounds like but you get my point. It was a it
was a and. My dad was, of course, worried about
me because I was young, married, had a newborn
daughter and was working a job with no future.
And I really didn't have like any sort of future
that looked promising other than paying bills,
you know, and or attempting to pay bills. And
he said, hey, this fire chief says they're getting
ready to hire in Moore. And that, you know, Southside,
Southside, OKC, Moore's where I grew up, where
I played Little League football. I was like,
oh, really? And my dad actually did all the legwork.
He said, you need to get your EMT. You need to
try out. And so one thing I was always good at
was taking tests. And I never had to work hard
to score well on a test. And so I had just done
a lot of ACT prep and taken ACTs because I didn't
know if I was going to go to college. Obviously,
football wasn't going to work out. So I really
wasn't in a position to afford college. But I
was still taking the ACT to see. And so at the
time. the fire service was, you know, cause the
fire service swings back and forth. They're like,
we need to hire guys from the trades, you know,
and work the people that were, and then they're
like, Oh, we're getting too many of these guys.
We need to hire smart people that are brainiacs,
you know? And at the time they had swung over
to, and the test that I took was super similar
to the ACT that I'd been prepping for. So I firmly
believe everything happens for a reason. So when
I took that test, I think I want to say there
was 700 ish applicants. And then out of those
700, I came in number two. And then the guy who
was number one, who's still working on the job
with me, it's pretty funny because we talk about
it, but he was there. And so that put me into
position. And the other thing was, is I was fresh
out of high school. I was pretty young. I was
still trying to play football. And so I was still
in very good physical condition. And so when
it came to the physical, I was able to absolutely
do really. So on the written part and the physical
part, I scored really well. And so the rest of
it was, man, I didn't realize then how lucky
I got, but it changed my life. How many spots
were you vying for at that 700? We hired six.
So I'm segwaying to this a lot recently because
obviously it needs to be spoken about. When I
hear people from and you came on earlier than
me, I think about five years earlier than I did.
But around that area, all the way through till
about 10 years ago, it was extremely competitive.
Now, as we sit here, I don't know how it is in
your department, but a lot of places are really
struggling. The higher standards are being lowered.
Oh, yeah. Even like sign on bonuses and all kinds
of stuff. Oh, yeah. More laterals. What are you
seeing through your eyes, the environment that
you entered back in the 90s to where we are now?
And are there any contributing factors that you
are seeing yourself? Oh, yeah. How long you got
it? Because I have all sorts of theories. Now,
I can't back them up with any sort of experiential
data or anything like that or any peer reviewed
studies. But I have tons of theories on why.
But no, we went from those kind of hiring numbers
like, you know. 500 plus for five spots to go
into, I think at our lowest point, a few years
back, we had like 36 applicants for three spots.
So going from like a hundred to one down to 10
to one. And, and so, um, what we ended up doing,
which we've, we've, we've turned that around.
This is just speaking. Uh, we, we started working
on what can we do to enable people to apply easier.
So we, we. I don't want to go into the weeds
too much, but we basically made it easier to
apply. We, we, we did multiple testing times.
So people that had a full -time job, but thought
about becoming a firefighter, they could do it
on the weekend instead of having, you know, instead
of making it, Hey, if you want this work for
it, we made it, Hey, if you thought about it,
come try out and made it as easy as possible,
multiple physicals, multiple. And then we dropped
a lot of the requirements. It used to be, you
had to have fire one, fire two, hazmat ops, hazmat
awareness, hazmat ops, EMT, just to apply. And
now you need none of those and you can apply
and we'll get you them if you make it through
the process. And that's turned around our numbers.
I think last time we had about 250 people that
made it through the application process and showed
up for our written, which is a massive improvement.
What about the quality of candidate that you're
getting? And again, not. talking shit about people
that are coming off the street and wanting to
get into this profession because those non -cert
programs do find some great firefighters as do
mentorship programs but when you have a profession
where you have to walk through the door with
with x amount and again that can be a barrier
to entry to people that can't afford fire academy
etc so i'm acknowledging that But when that standard
is set so high and people are really padding
out their resume, they're doing volunteer firefighting
or forestry or ambulance operator, you know,
you are arguably getting a higher caliber than
someone that's walking through with absolutely
nothing. Like I said, within that group, there
are going to be some phenomenal firefighters.
But as I see people changing the environment
to fill these seats. In some areas, that bar
is being lowered and you're not getting the same,
whether it's physical conditioning, whether it's
experience, et cetera, in that uniform than we
used to 10 years ago. So what about that with
that lens? You've removed these requirements.
What are you seeing aside from some, I'm sure,
phenomenal firefighters? No, no, I have to qualify
because I have a very, my lens is very different.
because of the numbers with like a big class
for us is the six or seven, you know? And so
to get six or seven great candidates is a lot
easier than when you have to fill a class of
60 like Oklahoma city does next door. And so
that to me, we were able to feel that we were
able to find the three best out of the two 50.
or the five best out of the 160. And so I think
that our candidates are extremely good. And we
also focus extremely much on trying to measure
passion, intensity, and character. Because if
they have those things, then all the certs and
everything else doesn't give you those things.
But if you can hire for those things, then that
fixes a lot of the other. Now, that's my qualifier
for answering this question, because as I've
traveled and gone... all around the country and
seeing people's struggles with putting butts
in seats in the rigs, it is a lower quality of
entry -level firefighter across the fire service.
And man, again, I think there's a lot of reasons
for it. We're lucky. I say lucky. We don't transport.
We don't run an ambulance service. We have a
private ambulance service that we respond with.
We're still 90 % EMS calls. But We don't transport,
we don't staff the ambulance rigs. And I think
that is a, I think it's a loss of mission focus
for the fire service. And it's one of the things
that has, I don't want to use too hyperbolic
of a word, too much exaggeration of saying destroyed,
but it's one of the things that has eroded the
image of what a firefighter is. And I always
say this, if you want the fire service to turn
into an ambulance service, then treat it like
one. And if you treat it like one, it will become
one. And I've never seen an ambulance service
that has the esprit de corps, the camaraderie,
the fellowship, the tradition that the fire service
has. I've never seen one. And so, again, I think
that's the biggest issue. And the other part
is, there's very real issues, as you are highly
aware, of mental health, suicide, PTSD. divorce
rates and relationship issues. And some of those,
the fire service is worn like a badge of honor
and completely said, well, why would I ever want
to become involved in that? There's so many better
options to do that. We have to acknowledge those
things are real. We need to address them. We
need to fix them, but let's not glorify them
as a thank me for my service type. badge of honor
and then and it's not a recruitment tool is basically
what i'm trying to say yeah no absolutely i think
even with the the different ways that EMS and
fire integrates. I loved Anaheim because they,
we were on either trucks or engines and then
we had care ambulance and they were the transport
unit. If it was ALS, the medics rode in with
the ambulance truck and engine or truck or engine
followed to the hospital, picked them up. We're
back in service again. Oh, and I want to be,
I want to be super clear because I don't want
to come across wrong. And I want to be clear
because I ramble on my ADHD kicks in and I'll
chase squirrels. But the EMS is, is. Emergency
medicine and making a difference in people's
lives on their worst days is important. Showing
up and being proper for CPR and strokes and diabetic
emergencies and trauma and, God forbid, mass
casualty incidents or disasters. All those things
are important. So I'm not downplaying our role
in EMS. What I am downplaying is, or what I do
think is a big problem, is the E in emergency.
of ems and the fact that we are now the catch
-all for we're the uber a lot of fire departments
are the uber to take people to an urgent care
clinic or to an emergency room and it is you
know i saw a stat and again it's a facebook stat
so bear with me on its veracity the uh busy busy
truck made like 11 000 rides you know what i'm
saying 11 000 rides in a year and i'm like what
and then If you dig into the numbers, the stat
said it was 48 of them were fire, you know? And
so that means 10 ,960 were EMS. And out of those
10 ,960, I want to know how many of them were
BS and they should not have been on. And you
know, if it's a truck and you're talking at least
1 .5 million right now, if you're buying at least
a $1 .5 million rig, the four, if it's, if it's
properly staffed four to five firefighters rolling
out. 10 ,960 times and probably 10 ,000 of them
was a call they shouldn't have been going on.
I had two guys on from Global Medical Response,
GMR, and they're the parent company of AMR. Okay.
And they have a thing called nurse navigation,
which I'm shouting from the rooftops about now
because I think this is how we fix this problem.
They kind of corrected me when we talk about
911 abuse. They're like, well, don't think about
911 abuse because we've done nothing but tell
people to call 911. When they have a problem,
even when the doctor's office is closed, call
911. So we've educated to the point where that's
indoctrinated now in people's minds. So he said,
think about it as a three -tier system. You got
ALS, you got BLS, which we still will be responding
to. But then you've also got this third tier,
which is going to be, you know, Omega, Alpha,
and some Bravo calls. And so, you know, you're
a brand new parent, you know, you've got a...
14 month old that's febrile that's thrown up
once you know oh my god my kid's gonna explode
from you know hypothermia and dehydration so
you call 9 -1 -1 and they go through the emd
questions and then okay well this is a low low
acuity one would you like to speak to a nurse
oh yeah that would be amazing the nurse then
advises them they might have stuff at home they
can literally treat at home you know get the
the clothes off the kid give them baby Tylenol
etc etc that's done Or they can make urgent care
of clinic appointments for that person. They
can even schedule an Uber. You just use that
actual Uber, not a fire truck, and then get that
person there. Or they can do telehealth with
a physician. And now you can actually have a
diagnosis. You can have prescriptions sent to
your local pharmacist. Again, as we know now,
that can be delivered to your home. So that is
far less expensive to the patient. The fire crew
or EMS crew has never woken up for that call.
And an ER bed stays open for a real emergency.
For a real emergency. So that, I think, is the
solution for, rightly so, the BS calls that we
run. Yes. I'm with you on shouting it from the
rooftops. This needs to be talked about. I went
to, it was right outside of San Diego, a fire
district called Heartland Fire District. And
this was the first place I ever heard about it.
And they explained it to me. And I was, it blew
my mind at the time. This was a couple of years
ago that I was there. And it blew my mind because
they said they had a person that actually scheduled
Ubers and said, no, no, they'll come pick you
up. They'll take you to the urgent care clinic.
And you're good to go, Mr. Jones. And I was like,
holy smokes, this needs to be everywhere. But
it does take that vision and that commitment
to say, no, this is, A, we have to acknowledge
the problem. And part of it is, EMD, I love emergency
medical dispatchers, but there is going to be
mistakes where an emergency gets miscoded and
a rig should have gone. And what happens if it
doesn't? And we've always fallen on the side
of we'll send it to everything, send it to everything.
And that way we don't miss any of them. But we're
starting to see the cost of that. We are. Yeah.
Well, I mean, it goes both ways, though. What
happens in nurse navigation, they go through
like, oh, shit, this actually is a Charlie call.
They kick it back to 911. That's beautiful. Yeah.
And that's the other part. If the people if it
is, we'll show up. It's not like we're trying
not to show up to emergencies. And so, I mean,
I don't know any firefighter that doesn't want
to go to emergencies. I say that, you know, there's
the burnouts, but don't get me wrong. If I ever
see another fire, I'll be too soon. Yeah. All
right. Well, then, while we're on this topic,
I want to move forward your journey into the
fire service as a young firefighter. But talk
to me about your work week, because, as you know,
when we spoke, you know, that that is a very
important topic. We've got the Northeast that
works 42. There's a revolution here in Florida
that's starting to understand the proactive nature
of investing in your firefighters health. What
is your department working at the moment? Well,
first, before I answer, I must say thank you,
James Gearing, for beating the drum of. the work
week and the and the and the 40 hour work week
and the question the challenge you put out on
my show 100 was amazing say why not why not uh
but no we work the 56 hour work week uh we work
one on one off uh repeat that three times and
have a four day and so it's those two days in
the middle that are just completely wasted you
know the the days off that you can't you're just
recovering especially now with the it There was
a time probably, you know, when I hired on, we
made 3 ,000 calls, less than 3 ,000 calls as
a city. Now, you know, we're pushing 9 ,000,
I believe. So we're not a big city. So please
understand this. We're four stations, 75 line
personnel and three shifts. So, but we've gone
from, you know, 2 ,000 to 3 ,000 calls a year
to more than triple and still work that same
schedule. And we haven't put on. that many more
personnel in that same time. We haven't tripled
our size in that time. Yeah, a lot of places
haven't, you know, and the call load has just
gone up and up. I'd work the same schedule in
California, but it was instead of four, it was
four, one tour, and then it was six off the next
tour. It's still a 56 -hour work week. But you
used to think, oh, I'm one -on -one off. But
again, as we talked about, you know, that's 24
-hour shift is three eight -hour days. Well,
that third day is from midnight to 8 a .m. on
that so -called day off so you've worked eight
hours and what they told you was a day off right
really you're working every day until that four
day 100 100 and uh no and i love the fact that
you're beating the drum on it and people are
starting to actually question and say wait a
second why are we doing this and there was a
time don't get me wrong there was a time when
firefighters only went to fires and that's all
they did and so They, they, it wasn't the, don't
get me wrong. Those guys work their butts off
and I'm not taking anything away from them, but
they weren't making 9 ,000 rides as a, as a single
company or single house or 11 ,000 rides as a
single company. Uh, they weren't, uh, even in
the war years, you know, they, they made a lot
of fire. They still weren't maybe the busiest
one. So I don't want to, I don't want to speak
like I was there, but, um, there was a time when
this schedule worked because of the workload,
but it's all changed, but the schedule hasn't.
Yeah. Well, even in the war years, if you think
about the Bronx and Brooklyn, I know FDNY now,
it's basically roughly, I think, a 42 -hour work
week, if I'm not mistaken. I keep hearing different
numbers from different people. But they were
doing 10s and 14s, if I'm not mistaken. So they
weren't doing a 56 -hour week, I don't think,
in New York City, even when they were burning.
All right. Well, I'll shift from there before
we get too stuck in sleep deprivation. It's important
because it is it's not it's destroying mental
health. It is destroying physical health. It
is like one that is unequivocally inarguable.
It is destroying firefighters, physical health
and mental health. I did. I think it was since
we spoke. I probably maybe it was our conversation
that kind of got this turning in my head again.
But I don't know if I talked about this in our
interview. I was sitting in the morning having
a cup of coffee with my wife and I don't know
what made me think about it, but I've talked
about, you know, if it's three days on one day
off and it's 30 days a month. So I was like,
well, let me let me just do a quick math of what
a 40 hour person works as far as days per year.
So I did, you know, 40 divided by 52 and it was
260. I think I've got the math wrong. Anyway,
it was 260 days that a civilian works because
obviously you're factoring weekends. So 260 calendar
days a civilian is at work. When I put in a 56
-hour work week for a firefighter, not including
obviously mandatory overtime, it was 364 days
a year. That's insane. Which means that you've
accumulated a day off if you work the full year.
So this is the thing. When you actually look
at the numbers, it debunks all the myths that
you and I both believe when we were young. Amazing
schedule, only work 10 days a month. And then
you wonder why we're dropping like flies and
you do an analysis and you're like, ah, it may
be, just maybe it's this. So I think it's exciting
because now we're at an opportunity where you
have to look at it and we have to make change.
So I hope that this does become a... you know,
a national movement to make a professional standard,
you know, a 24 72 or 42 hour work week. Brother.
I think it's a phenomenal, phenomenal. I can't,
I can't speak, but yes, I'm all for it. All right.
Well, let's get back to your journey into the
fire service. So talk to me about the front door
for you. What was like the expectations as far
as fitness? Um, and then how well did your upbringing
serve you as a probationary firefighter? My journey
is unique. Of course, everybody's journey is
unique. But I was not, I was not, I'll be honest
with you, I probably should have been terminated
during my probationary year. That's the truth.
That is the God's honest truth. I was very young.
I was immature. I did not appreciate the job.
And the one saving grace for me was the shift
I got assigned to. The shift commander was having
health issues. So he was on light duty. Or actually,
he was on administrative leave while he was going
to see if he could return to active duty. And
the second in command had torn up his shoulder
and he was off getting surgery. So he was on
medical leave. So the top two people that could
have made the determination, hey, let's get rid
of this kid while he's while it's they were gone.
And so I skated through. I skated through. Luckily,
knock on wood, I skated through. And I was able
to mature and grow up in the fire service. And
I had a lot of a lot of mentors that invested
in me and made that happen. And so but no, I
did not appreciate the job. I did not. I was
young and fit. I loved it. Don't get me wrong.
I know. I want to be clear. I always loved being
a firefighter. I love going to fires. I love
being on on the hose line. There was nothing
like adrenaline, all of that, even bad EMS calls.
I love the bad EMS calls and a good cardiac arrest.
I can say good cardiac arrest. You know what
I mean. Yeah. You want to be there to mitigate
the problem. Absolutely. And I loved it, but
I did not appreciate it. I did not have the passion
for understanding how. And that's part of my
journey in the fact of why I am so adamant about.
the never ending fight against complacency, you
know, the byline of firehouse vigilance is because
complacency doesn't give a shit who you are.
It'll sneak up. It'll grab you. It'll put its
tentacles in you. And when I hired on, we had
a very complacent department. I'll say that,
you know, and, and when I say that, I don't mean
that as a disrespect to the men and women that,
that worked there at the time because they fought
a very different battle. They were fighting for
decent pay. I mean, I. The pay was so terrible,
like so terrible for everybody but me. I got
a raise when I hired on there. But I think my
first year I made in 1997, I made $13 ,000 was
my probationary year. And at six months, I went
to $16 ,000. And I was like, I was in high cotton
because that's how bad my jobs were before. And
then when I actually made my year, I went to
$27 ,000, which was, I mean, it was like, holy
smokes, I'm rich. And so. But I try to remember
where the question was before I lost my train
of thought. My journey early. I loved it, but
I did not appreciate it. Well, let's talk about
that first from an age point of view. If we went
back to that highly competitive environment where,
and this is exciting, I shared an article a while
ago from the New York Times, this young generation,
Gen Z, are coming into the trades because the
same way that they look at the fire service at
the moment, and just as you said, That looks
a bit shit. Divorces, cancer, suicides, et cetera.
We can fix that. I mean, we need to anyway for
our own people that we're burying. We just had
two suicides here in Florida this last week near
where I live. But they're also looking at higher
education and going, well, that also looks shit.
Tens of thousands of dollars of student debt
and I got a piece of paper that may not guarantee
me a job. Any sort of job worth, yeah. Yeah,
so I think this exciting time to actually attract
these young people into our professions. That
being said, though, the number of people I've
spoken to as far as the mental capacity and readiness
for a young person to be in fire, police, EMS,
the fire service, we allow young people to come
in so, so young. When you look back now, this
mature lens, I'm thinking about 21, just like
law enforcement, as far as if we actually had
a super competitive environment, we could really
could tell them, right, hold the line, get some
life experience and then come. What is your kind
of perspective on an older starting age for the
fire service? I don't see a downside. I don't.
You know, I went through counseling. We have
a Moore Fire Department has been, City of Moore
has been amazing on being on the forefront. They
actually hired a liaison for mental health and
she's been amazing. And I got to utilize her
services and it really helped me out. And I'll
shout her. From the mountaintops, Tanya absolutely
changed my, my life with her EMDR and all the
stuff that, but, but talking to her, you know,
and she says, well, specifically males, you know,
their brains aren't fully developed until they're
25, you know, and they're still, their brain
is still developing. It's crazy. And then we
subject them to some horrific, I'm not just talking
like trauma, like physical seeing. gunshot wounds
and broken femurs and and compound fractures
i'm not talking about just the the sheer mechanism
of injury traumas i'm talking like terrible situations
of psychological abuse that you see you know
when you're dealing with with uh you know drugs
and and family situations and domestic situations
and and i think that is so so so traumatic especially
so i'm i'm a proponent um I do. I think there's
exceptions that could probably handle it. Yes.
But I think as a whole, I think it would be I
think it would be a net positive for the fire
service without a doubt. Absolutely. Yeah. And
also what what you've done in your department
is phenomenal. I think that's also a gold standard
is if you have and I get that, you know, depends
on the size of department. But if you can have
a network like like I said, Anaheim did and I
will be big enough to have their own. But if
you're a smaller department and work with other
ones, but having that person on staff removes
those barriers to entry because. places, a number
of stories I've heard where someone is willing
to go, but either there's no one that's culturally
competent or, you know, they can't see you for
six months and you're in crisis or they can see
you and it's $150 per visit, you know, and as
you mentioned earlier, we're not exactly in this
for the wealth. So having that person on staff
really seems to be one of the other answers to
this whole crisis. No, and it's been amazing.
She works for all first responders. She works
for the entire city. She'll do anything. But
specifically, she was hired for first responders,
our police and our fire. And it's amazing. They
gave her an office that is away from the public
eye. So if you wanted to go and be incognito,
you absolutely could set up an appointment. And
it was in a doctor's office that's unassociated
with the city. So you could just show up and
set up an appointment with her completely on
the down low and do it. And then somebody that
was on my show, I wish I could give him credit.
but they were a fire chief at their department.
And what they did was they put their counseling
on their, their, their schedule, their calendar.
So that, you know, when people looked at the
calendar, what the chief had going on, they would
look and see, he had his mental health counseling
and it was on. And so for me, a big thing for
me was I had Tanya come to my office and do her
counseling in my office where everybody could
see it because I wanted to make it a big deal.
And I learned it from that person. I wanted to
make it okay. And a big deal to, Hey, if the
chief is doing it, everybody can do it. And hopefully
that made a difference. And so anyway, if anybody
listening to this, man, beat the drum to bring
in a professional that is available to your people.
100%. Yeah, the other side of the coin is the
AAP. And there are some good AAPs where they've
tailored it to make sure that everyone on there
is a culturally competent clinician that works
with us. But the number of stories I've heard
where, you know, the person was in tears, a person
told him to get out, they can't help them. And
I just I've said this many times. If I've heard
those stories, how many of those stories will
I never hear? Because that was the responders
last attempt. And after being sent out of the
office, they just went and finished it. Yeah,
no, without a doubt. If that's all you got, that's
all you got. I'm not a fan. I think bureaucracies
fail more than they succeed. And I feel like
most of the EAPs are lost in bureaucracy. And
that's a broad brush, and I get it. I'm sure
there's exceptions to that. But if it's all you
got, it's all you got. Take advantage of it.
But, man, I really want to say, if you can, push
to get a professional in there to be nothing
but that for your city. It's a person, first
of all. And a person is so much better than a
program. 100%. Well, you mentioned entering a
complacent department. And again, understanding
why you're using those terms. What were the dangers
of that complacency? What was the ripple effect
of what could have happened? And then what were
some of the things that started to change to
create a different culture? Well, first of all,
when I say it, I want to say it with the most
respect I can for the people, men and women that
built a more fire department in front of me.
The most respect I can give them because their
battles were to bring in rigs that actually started
when you push the button. You know, they brought
in buildings of fire stations that weren't falling
apart and filled with mold and et cetera. They
fought to get pay that was competitive so that
people weren't just coming there and leaving.
They fought a lot of battles. So when I say complacent,
they weren't lazy. When I say complacent, I'm
talking about the... when you're, when it's talking
about training and how important training is
and staying relevant and, and cause that was
not a high priority. And, and part of it was,
this was the nineties. You know, Andrew Fredericks
was still, you know, he was still writing articles
at this point, you know, and he had just done
his, don't worry about that nozzle kid keynote
speech. We don't go to fires anymore. And so
there was the, you know, the, the, the pendulum
that is the fire service. It was way over on.
I get paid the same, whether I go to a fire or
not, you know, Hey, you know, don't worry about,
you know, that, that, that sort of complacency
training when I hired on training didn't exist.
In fact, I remember my battalion chief setting
up cones in a, in a parking lot. And it was right
when two in two out came and we did a walkthrough
drill basically of, okay, here's a house fire.
These cones are the house and we're going to,
here's the first do rig. And this is what you're
going to do. And this is the second do rig. And
this was when I had like one year on. And I remember
that drill was the basis for all of my tactics
for like the next 10 years. That one drill we
did that one day was the basis for all my tactics
for the next 10 years, because that was the training
that we did. And it wasn't a, it wasn't part
of the culture. And so, but again, that's a growth
thing because their fight had been a separate
fight. So I don't, I hope it doesn't come across
that I'm bashing them. I'm not. And so it's just
like. A generation is going to come after me.
I'm staring down the barrel of retirement in
the next few years. But a generation is going
to come after me, and they're going to talk about
the things that I did and the fights that I fought.
And I'm going to be offended by what they say
because they're fighting a different battle than
me. And so I hope that it comes across when I
say that. The change that we fought in our generation
was to bring in training, making it more important.
Readiness, a culture of readiness and taking
it serious. And that's not even the right words,
but it kind of captures the essence. It's interesting
because this year now, my messaging is really
to find courage to advocate for your own health,
advocate for your family, your relationships.
And as I've said many times, I think I'm sure
in your interview too, Even the health of our
children, we pass on disease through the working
conditions at the moment. We have a much higher
prevalence of autism, Down syndrome, pediatric
cancers. So looking back at our generation, the
next one are probably going to call us complacent
for not fighting for that. Right. For the actual
environment. Yeah. But to forge performance,
to forge longevity. So that's where I think we'll
be criticized. Sure. No. And earned, absolutely
deserved. And that's why I want to say I have
nothing but respect for the people that built
the department that I'm proud to call. And I
hope someone in the next generation will say,
hey, I have nothing but respect for Corley and
what he did here. But this is where he fell short.
And this is what I'm going to carry on. So what
started to change in your department from that
kind of just put your gear on the rig and do
your 24 hours and get your paycheck mentality
to actually. Training for the what ifs, which
I think is really what it's about, isn't it?
We don't have a high frequency of fires in modern
society, but God forbid we have that shooting,
that fire, that car hanging half off a bridge.
Now your entire career's worth of training is
resting on that one call. I think it was a mindset
of going from that'll never happen here, kind
of being the unsaid motif to over time becoming
what if that happens here. And it's just the
mindset shift. And it wasn't one thing. It wasn't,
you know, I mean, not more. If you know where
more is at in the country, one thing we are very
good at is getting leveled by tornadoes. We've
had two F5 tornadoes come through and one F4.
And I think we're one of the only, you know,
cities that can brag about that, if you want
to call it that term. So it's not like we haven't
had our share of disaster. But I think it is
that. I think Dandridge Malone wrote the book
Small Unit Leadership, and he wrote it in the
1980s. And his mantra in the book was, I'm trying
to keep men combat ready in an era where there's
been no combat for over 15 years. There was Granada
and small skirmishes, but there was no war. And
how do you do that? And his answer was training,
training, plain and simple. And it's kind of
that mindset is. What's the purpose? What are
you training for? Why are you throwing a ladder?
You know, don't you know how to throw a ladder?
Why are you stretching the pre -connect? Don't
you know how to do that? And, and the whole thing
is, is it's a mindset of, no, I'm going to be
so good at it that I don't have to think about
it day up when it, when it finally comes, I'm
going to be so good at it. And, and it was just,
I would love to take credit for it. It's not,
it was a cultural shift. There was a lot of pieces
that moved and yeah. And we're in a lot better
place than we used to be in regards to that issue.
It's funny because you wouldn't ask a batsman,
why do you spend so many times in the cage? Right.
No, exactly. Exactly. No, that's a great. I've
never even made that analogy, but that's a beautiful
analogy. I was criticized once for taking VMR
twice quite close to each other. And they're
like, well, you've already got that. Why are
you taking that again? It's like, well, because
I want more tool time because I don't want to
panic. When we get that awful extrication where
you might have to tunnel or clamshell or some
of these more advanced techniques. And you get
so much tool time in these tech classes that
I never gave up the tool. But in your mind, I'm
like, I think I'm actually ready to give this
to someone, which you never, ever get on a real
scene. So, yeah, repetition is key. Absolutely.
And especially with my leaky brain, because I
have a leaky brain. I mean, plain and simple.
Yeah, I can read a book four or five times. And
it's like I tell my friends all the time, it's
great to be my friend because you can tell me
a story, you know, and I won't remember you told
me the story and I'll laugh at the same punchlines.
I tell them you can tell me a secret because
I'll forget it. I'm not going to tell anyone.
Well, then while we're on the performance kind
of switch now, talk to me about your own personal
perspective of fitness standards. For me, when
I talk to the special operations community, the
ocean lifeguards, other tactical athletes that
lives are in their hands, they're always blown
away that police and fire don't have a punitive
fitness standard. And when you look at what we
had to go through, the crucible that is Fire
Academy, there are fitness standards at the front
door. And so when, again, calling out the kind
of cowardice. that came out of cowardice if you
if you fight against fitness standards in this
profession that's because you're scared of putting
in the work to stay fit don't get me wrong we
got to fix the working environment too because
that does not forge elite fitness either but
you know we have a profession where things are
heavy it's hot it's tight you're hanging off
the side of a building you're climbing you know
10 15 20 flights of stairs with 100 pounds of
gear so With this kind of lens, with you seeing
that kind of anti -training mentality through
to where you are now, what is your perspective
of actual punitive fitness standards in this
profession? Man, very multifaceted. Lots of levers
to pull to make a difference. I think we absolutely
should have a professional fitness standard.
Now, the obstacles to overcome to get that there,
especially in the – I can't even touch on the
volunteer side of things. But on the professional
side of things, and please understand, when I
use the word professional, I mean paid. It's
probably what I should say. On the paid side
of things, I think there absolutely should be
a professional fitness standard. And you touched
on some of the facets of that issue, the sleep
schedule. And I don't want to just put it on
the union, but the unions will stand absolutely
in the way and say, no, we're not going to have
a fitness standard where you can take us off.
And I don't have a good answer for it other than
it is unequivocally inarguable that the more
fit you are, the better you will do at this job.
That is inarguable. And I don't care. We've all
seen the Facebook post where it's some slobbing.
out of shape firefighter. And, and someone down
there will say, yeah, but he'll outwork any of
those young CrossFit guys. He'll work them into
the ground, blah, blah, blah. And, and, and I
have no doubt that he can, he can bring it for
whatever, but it won't be as good as if he was
in shape, that person. And, and there's, it's,
it's not even an argument. And so another thing
is there's a lot of people that say it, but there
is nothing that speaks professionalism more than
physical fitness, your physical presentation.
speaks volumes about you just when you walk in
a room and just the professionalism that it presents,
you know, when you see a squared away person,
I mean, you can look at the special forces, the
special forces person walks in the room and if
they're active, I'm not talking about retired,
you know, or, but, and generally speaking, even
when they're retired, you can still, but when
they walk in the room, you, there is a presence
about them and there's no denying that. And when
you're talking about the public perception, when
you come into an emergency situation, Again,
it's inarguable that you are better if you are
fit. Now, all that being said, I now write a
desk and I'm now pushing 50 years old and the
struggle has become real to keep that same level
of fitness that I had when I was younger. It's
twice the effort, half the results. But we absolutely
need one. If we want to call ourselves professionals,
we need to. And like you said, it's just like
your batting analogy, your batting cage analogy.
It's insane to think that we can't, that we shouldn't.
It's insane to think we have one to get in the
door, and then as soon as you're in the door,
you throw it out the door. It's crazy. Well,
the easiest way to decondition someone is just
by removing the culture of fitness once you walk
through the door, you know, because now you're
asking someone who's 100 pounds overweight, who
cardiovascular wise, you know, may have not challenged
themselves for a long time to get back to where
they need to be. And you're so far from it from
that point. But if, you know, you've gone through
the academy now, you know, arguably everyone
should be in good shape. And you almost get this
kind of romanticization like, oh, when I was
in the academy, I was in great shape. I was in
the academy. No one was dying. This is the real
world. People are dying here and you're worse
shape now. Like in Florida, we call our certification
minimum standards. They've labeled it for you.
This is as shit as you should ever be in your
entire career. And so we've done such a huge
disservice because it's not only performance.
And I would argue that the guy that says, oh,
he can outwork anyone. He's probably the one
telling you because in his mind, he's still a
fucking superhero. But the reality is put him
to work in the heat. He probably is not going
to perform very well. But the other thing is
longevity. By fighting fitness standards, we've
added nails into the coffin of all these first
responders because suicide is, you know, through
the roof. But the next two is cancer and heart
disease. You know, now part of that is undoubtedly
shift work and sleep deprivation, but it's also
poor diet and without a doubt. No, we're killing
ourselves with our forks and our. Yeah, absolutely.
Our forks and our lifestyles and and killing
ourselves also with suicide, which is, you know.
Yeah, like you said, your whole mission is amazing.
So all of that being said, I lost my train of
thought completely on that. We were talking about
fitness standards being punitive and creating
a culture of fitness. Yeah, I lost it. I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, James. It's gone. Poof. I think we
kind of round that off anyway, because I mean,
I agree. And I think that if you fix the work,
if you create an environment for performance,
and especially as we'll get into in a minute.
We're talking about the ability to do a primary
search and find someone that requires a high
level of fitness. VES through a second floor
window, you are not going to be able to perform
that unless you actually have a high level of
fitness. Without a doubt. And complacency is
where I was going. Complacency. It doesn't care
and it sneaks up. It's so insidious. It sneaks
up. It has its fingers in you and in its tentacles.
And then you look back and you go, how did I
get here? How did I get here? And it is the lack
of standards. It really, so. 100 percent. Well,
then. So walk me through as you progress through
your career. What about the leadership element?
What were you seeing maybe in areas that were
were there was a deficit that were devoid of
leadership? And then what were you learning from
the mentors, the real leaders in your department
that you started kind of acquiring your own toolbox?
Well, my department was all based on informal
mentorship. There was no real professional development
in an organizational setting. You learn from
the person that you served under, and hopefully
it was a good one. And if you didn't, then you
learned all those things you weren't going to
do. And I think that's the bulk of the American
Fire Service probably is the way that, as I've
traveled, I think that is kind of the bulk of
the American, especially from over the course
of my career. Now, over the last, I would say.
10 to 5 years especially, but there's really
been a shift towards officer development programs
and leadership development programs and actual
formal mentorship programs as opposed to just
informal. And so for me personally, I was heavily
invested in by one of the most natural leaders
that I've ever had the pleasure to serve under,
a man named Scott Lance. And he absolutely invested
in me and taught me everything. My foundation
for leadership was based on him. And I'll say
that the foundation is this, is he was one of
the most empathetic people I've ever met. And
he's a gruff, rough, hard around the edges, had
lived a hard life, grew up on the wrong side
of the tracks, everything you could ever. But
he was one of the most empathetic people you've
ever met. And he could empathize with anyone
and make you feel like. He could make a person
feel heard in a single sitting. It was it was
a unbelievable gift. What is your perception
on empathy, compassion? I've talked about this
quite a bit. If you think about what sends most
of us into uniform, it is exactly that. It's,
you know, wanting to make the world better, wanting
to be there when someone's having their worst
day. But a lot of our generation, I think you're
a little bit younger than me, but we were raised
on Stallone, Schwarzenegger, Robocop, you know,
this kind of. facade fake stoicism um that you
know men don't cry and you're stone -faced um
and what i've seen in quite a lot of areas is
especially with some of these young firefighters
now because there is this huge gap and a lot
of departments have you know guys that have been
on five uh years or less like 50 of the department
is almost like a parroting of the salty old guy
the guy that now we know with this 2025 lens
is probably hurting and needs to go see some
counselor um but That becomes that kind of pissed
off, you know, impatient, angry firefighter who
may only have literally a couple of years on.
And I feel like there's a loss of that compassion
and empathy, that compassion fatigue, as they
call it. Talk to me about what allowed this leader
that you were being mentored under to maintain
that compassion and empathy when certain, you
know, salty, gruff old fucks are demonstrating
that you just don't need to care anymore. Man,
I think that you can't fake caring. You can't
fake it. You either care or you don't care. And
so you can be a salty old gruff fuck. But if
you care, then it shines through. And Scott Lance
was a salty old gruff fuck. I'll be honest with
you. He was. He would motherfucker you with the
best of them. And if he asked you a question
and he smelled doubt, this was another one of
his gifts. He might not know the answer to the
question he just asked you, but if he smelled
doubt, he would pounce. He would pounce like
a like a like a gorilla spider, not a monkey
spider, a gorilla spider. And he would he would.
But it was always to make you better because
you knew he cared. And so I don't know what kept
him from becoming. And it's a great we could
dive into. Why do some of them lose it? You know,
I have a whole passion triangle theory that I
that I you know, you have the calling, which
is your heat. That is the empathy, the compassion,
the wanting to help people. When young people
come into the fire service, they are super plugged
in to wanting to help people. They've seen the
movies, they've seen Backdraft, they've seen
Chicago Fire, and they want to help people. They
want to make this difference, and it's a cool
job. So they have the calling, and it's super
high heat. And then the fuel is their willpower,
their soul. So you've got your heat and your
fuel, and you use that up. The cool part about
the soul, the human will, is that it's not finite.
It's not a reducing agent. It doesn't just get
reduced and is gone. You can replenish it. And
that's the good part of it. Now, the sad part
is a lot of, you know, when you're a gruff old
fuck that doesn't give a shit anymore, it's because
you're a reducing agent. Your soul, your will
has been worn down by the calls, the lack of
support, the organizational toxicity. And that
has reduced their soul, their will. They're out
of fuel. They're a fuel -limited fire. No matter
how high their heat is, and usually the heat
is way diminished too, especially when you get
a real burnout person. They've lost their connection
to the calling. Their reducing agent is completely
gone. And then so what's left is the third leg
of the passion triangle, which is oxygen. It's
air. And that is what I call others. And that's
people with like -minded souls who feel the same
way you feel. You don't always talk about a rookie
coming in has a really high calling and they
have a really high fuel. Right. And then you
go and take that rookie and you put them a probationary
person. You put them in a at a at a slow station
with a burnout captain and you basically put
them in a vent limited fire. You know, they're
they're now vent limited. They're getting no
oxygen. They're going to you're going to create
a burnout firefighter by doing that. And so when
you look at it through the lens of the three
legs and say, why, why am I? Not burning right
now. Why am I not passionate right now? You can
say, well, my calling, I still feel the empathy
and compassion and I, my fuel. And I feel like
I still have something to give. I'm not burnt
out and pissed off at every call I go on. So
what, what's happening to me? And you can honestly
look at it and say, holy shit, I'm bent limited.
I'm not getting any oxygen. I need to talk to
other people and that feel like me and, and not
feel alone and be heard. And. I go in rabbit
holes. I'm sorry. I'm not even sure if I'm answering
the question, but the toxicity, the organizational
toxicity can create those vent limited atmosphere
so often. And I think that that's, you know,
David Rhodes talked about it from the stage at
FDIC a couple of years ago when he talked about,
it's not the calls and he wasn't downplaying
the calls when he said it, but he said, it's
not the call so much that are, that is the so
detrimental to people. It's the. lack of support
from the leadership in the organizations that
is absolutely crushing firefighters. And he nailed
it, man, with so many. Don't get me wrong. PTSD
is a real thing, but the organizational, I don't
even want to associate it with PTSD, the organizational
burnout from toxic leadership is just tragic
in the fire service. I love the way you framed
that. That was such a beautiful analogy. And
I agree completely. I mean, there's all these
different contributing factors. Unaddressed childhood
trauma, obviously, is a big one that we're becoming
more aware of now. And then, of course, yeah,
when we see and it's less, I think, about the
grotesque images and more about the shrieks of
the loved ones that are left behind that really
get into your soul. But then you add sleep deprivation
and you add organizational betrayal. You've got
this tribe that you literally swore to die for
if needed. And then they turn their back on you.
And it's so detrimental if you look at the evolutionary.
So this is something that really needs to be
talked about. And again, it's fixable. You can
fix the sleep. You can fix the way you choose
and or mentor leaders. And you can create a cohesive
firehouse. I was so lucky in Anaheim to have
an incredible truck crew that I was a part of.
Absolutely my pinnacle, my fire service career.
And I loved going to work. the last place i worked
at i i dreaded going to work not the cause i
love the cause it was the culture no and and
i love frank viscuso one of my favorite people
on the planet real step up and lead amazing person
amazing human being and uh he has that slide
i don't know where he got the slide from and
he has the quote on the slide so i'll butcher
it but it says culture is how you feel about
showing up to work on monday on sunday night
You know, it's that feeling in your stomach on
Sunday night when you have to show up for work
the next day. That's culture. And I wish I could
attribute it. I'll have to look it up and look
up the slide. But that's it, man. If you're on
Sunday night, you know, he's talking about a
40 -hour work week and a Monday to Friday. But
if the night before shift, you're dreading going
to work, man, that's an indication that you're
in a toxic atmosphere. You're in a toxic culture.
That's a terrible place to be. And this is one
thing too, man. You only get one chance to go
around this, this, this rock, you know, you'll
get one life to live. So I know a lot of people
are trapped by their pensions and they're trapped
by their careers and their rank and their paycheck
and their mortgage, but man, you only get one
ride on this thing. So don't, don't waste it
in a toxic atmosphere. And I know sometimes it's
so much easier to say than it is to do. Believe
me, I get that. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm kind
of testament to making that leap because after
that last one, coming back from a knee surgery
that I rehab back to full duty, I realized that
if I went back there, it was going to be detrimental.
And I realized I could speak for this community
far more powerfully from the outside. So I left
my pension. I cashed out my pension and gave
myself a salary for a year and a half. I have
no pension as I sit here. I have no health insurance
as I sit here now, to be completely honest. But
it was the right thing to do. And for my mental
health, it was the right thing to do. For my
family, I've been present with my son for the
last six and a half years, like every single
night. Now he's about to graduate and go off
and forge his own career. You are told that you
are supposed to stay in a fire service, not because
of that's how long the flame's going to burn
or that's how long you're supposed to serve,
but because a pension company said, this is how
long you've got to wait till we'll give you some
money. Right. So when you reframe that and then
you think about your benefits, your health insurance,
that goes away when you quit anyway. You know
what I mean? Or you retire. Excuse me. So when
you reframe that, if you're in a place that's
not making you happy anymore, you can serve in
a different department or you can serve even
in a different career. You are not shackled to
a pension. Yeah. No. And I wish. man especially
and maybe when we we that starts becoming you
know that becomes the mainstay of the zeitgeist
of when we talk about this then maybe there'll
actually be a change in in the toxic leadership
that seems to be so pervasive throughout the
american fire service 100 well i want to get
to um you know the creation of all your projects
in the books but just before we do when you reflect
now and this again is not a what's the worst
thing you've seen question by any means What
are some of the career moments, whether it's
fires or other rescues that you've had up to
this point? Well, it's hard to work in more and
not reference the tornadoes because those were
just, I mean, F5s or F5s. The one in 99, which
I had two years on at the time when it came through,
that one broke the F scale, and that's when they
made the EF scale. They were going to make an
F6 at the highest wind speeds ever recorded on
Earth. So it's hard not to reference. the tornadoes
and and and seeing two f5s and in between an
f4 then i think at one point i think i looked
it up there's 13 other tornadoes that have hit
more but the rest of them don't count because
they were just f3s or below and but the the difference
in the citizens of war between the 99 tornado
and the 2013 f5 was just The response was, again,
like in 99, it looked like a bomb had gone off
in the city and everybody's wandering around
wondering what to do. 2013, same situation, but
everybody just went to work. And I'm shortchanging
the 99 citizens somewhat in that regard, but
there was just a difference. But in regards to
that, yes, the tornadoes have to be the reference
point. And I've already alluded to it once and
you talked about it again. The calls I relish,
it probably sounds bad, but I relish like bad
trauma calls and to be there to make a difference,
but to experience it. I want to be a part of
things that are going on. I want to be there.
I want to be there. And I don't apologize for
that. I was like, I don't want anybody's stuff
to burn, but if it's going to burn, please burn
on green shift. And so I can be there. And I
loved it forever. The things that bother me the
most probably would be the. what and the only
way i can describe it is to see emotional scarring
in real time like you're watching emotional damage
being done or psychological damage being done
in real time and and it's usually a domestic
case of some sort usually drugs are involved
probably and and it's just those of those stick
in my brain those are the ones i probably talked
to my counselor the most tanya the most about
was those those situations what are some of the
unique operational elements responding to a tornado
of that magnitude that many of us in the country
will never experience? The first of all, tornadoes
are very acute as opposed to like a hurricane,
which is a chronic, you know, just, just grinding
a tornado is like a laser beam came down from
the heavens and went, you know, and, and it's
a very, uh, lots of destruction. Do not get me
wrong. Massive, you know, mile wide laser beam
is still a pretty good, uh, destruction. But
so that first thing is a lot of help is coming
because it's just, it's so acute and localized.
And so everywhere around you is unfazed. Generally
speaking, when there's outbreaks, there's outbreaks,
but generally speaking, there's one massive catastrophe
on a path. And then all these resources are pouring
in. And if you are not prepared for the resources,
it will be a massive log jam and nothing will
get done. And so the biggest thing, one of the
keys we learned through the 99 tornado and the
2013 tornado was staging and the power of staging,
the power of the IMS system, the incident management,
you know, just be good at the basics of those
and you will be good at a disaster. It's like
everything, man, master the basics and, and the
rest, you know, all the curve balls are easier
when you've mastered the basics. We've made some
kind of, note of your mental health journey,
some of the emotional highs and lows. When you
look back now, you know, where were the lowest
places you've got? And then what were, aside
from obviously your counselor herself, what were
some of the tools that you've accumulated to
help yourself grow from those? Lowest, probably
Plaza Towers Elementary School, the 2013 F5 tornado
that took out that. I was one of the first on
scene at the, you know, where the kids were killed.
And for five years, I couldn't talk about it.
I wouldn't drive past it. They rebuilt the school
and they had a dedication. It was on shift. I
was on day on duty that day. And I called in
sick because I wasn't going to be there. And
so that was, and that, like I said, I couldn't
even talk about that. Five years ago, 10. Yeah,
probably. And Tanya was, and that's what the
bulk of the EMDR was dealing with that, that
situation. Those, the, the kids that we pulled
out of there and we did pull out kids that were
alive. We did. But then we didn't. And it was,
it was a. Probably the darkest day I've had as
a firefighter. Just children are always tough.
Children are always tough. And it's the senselessness
of it. You know, why? It's just a question of
why. But the tools I've accumulated, A, people
smarter than me like Tanya and the EMDR and the
counseling. But it's so important to talk. Because
for five years, I did not talk. And there's calls,
there's other calls and things, but now I know
the importance of talking about it. In fact,
we made a call shortly after the Plaza Towers
and it was an infant CPR. And anytime I'm with
a certain firefighter and we'll look at each
other and we're both thinking about that, you
know what I'm saying? But we talk about it now.
We talk about it now where before we wouldn't.
And so I think the most important tool is you
have to say out loud. what you're thinking to
other people who can understand you. And you
have to. You have to. And if you don't, I promise
you, it's bottling up in there. Absolutely. Another
thing I've heard from a lot of people, especially
if they grew up in a faith -based household and
they were entrenched in their own specific religion.
And then something happens that, like you said,
doesn't make any sense. There's no reason why,
you know, sometimes their faith is shaken for
a while. Did you experience that anytime, including
the school? I know my dad called me shortly after,
you know, the cell service was down and shoddy.
So I think it was about a week after, maybe not
that long, but he finally got a hold of me and
asked me how I was doing. You know what I'm saying?
And I think my answer to him was God decided
he wanted those kids with him more. than with
their parents, you know? And, and I think that
was kind of a coping answer, but at the same
time, it's something I firmly believe. So, uh,
no, I think it absolutely. And me and, uh, faith
have a, I don't want to say me and God, but me
and faith have a tenuous relationship because
I do question things. I do. I really, uh, but
I, I, I always tell people I have a very high
faith because, you know, the whole point of it
is you can't prove it. But you believe it anyway.
So that's faith. So I have a very high faith.
But I also question my own faith, you know, at
times. And the school and the why definitely
tested it. I've always had this kind of perception,
you know, because I do believe in God. I have
faith in, you know, all of the kind of spiritual
side. I just don't have a specific religion that
I adhere to. But to me. I truly believe that,
you know, this all came from something beautiful
and there is, you know, a higher purpose and
a higher power. And, you know, hopefully some
of we go next. I mean, we're all crossing our
fingers. But when it comes to the things that
we see down here, I feel like, you know, this
was all put together and it's kind of like, all
right, you know, now it's up to you guys to govern
yourselves. And so I don't think of it as like,
oh, it's God's plan. Like you hear some people
say, I'm not sure about that. This is me personally.
No, no, no, I'm with you. It's you know, now
it's up to us to, you know, to make whether it's
school safer or, you know, firefighter work weeks
better or, you know, whatever the thing is. I
really feel like this. These are human decisions.
So if we lose some people from these tragedies,
was it preventable? You know, and if if we lost
them the first time, how do we stop it happening
again? Sure. So that's what kind of sets me at
peace is I don't think God was up there moving
chess pieces saying, all right, we're going to
kill these kids next. I feel like there was this
beautiful creation that we get to experience.
These miracles are around us, but there is also
an element of chance in what happens to us while
we're here. No, no. And I'm a huge proponent
of free will. And I don't believe in like predestination,
predetermination. You know, your fate is your
fate. No matter what you do, it's not going to
matter. No, what we do has to matter. And that's
why we have free will. That's why we were given
free will from wherever it came from, because
it's up to us what we do with it. A hundred percent.
All right. Well, then you talked about, you know,
accumulating these leadership skills, seeing
some of the things that were working really well
in the fire service, some of the things that
maybe needed some work. What was it that made
you actually pick up the torch and create Firehouse
Vigilance? It was a confluence, you know, obviously
there's all these different influencing factors.
It was people that invested in me young. Others
that had fought the good fight against complacency,
even though I couldn't put it into those words.
It was a love of fighting fire. And I went and
saw Dave McGrell speak, which he did 40 years,
I think. I want to say 40. Is that Denver Chief?
Yeah, Denver Chief. And between him and his father,
I think he did 90 years at the Denver Fire Department.
But he's an amazing speaker. And he talked about...
Into the job, being into the job. And I didn't
realize this because I just saw him. He just
came to town a month ago and I got to go see
him speak again and see him again. And it was
the same presentation updated by about 10 years.
But sitting there taking notes, I was like, holy
shit. He had such an impact on me in 2016 when
I saw him speak. And it was him and Mike Walker
from OKC, Brian Brush. from firefighter rescue
survey he is actually the one that brought him
in at the department that was very close to mine
at the time and then the other thing that was
very big uh very big impact was mark von oppen
which is uh he he's fully involved leadership
and and i saw him speak 2017 and so between i
didn't realize how big of an impact dave mcgrill
had had and then mark von oppen spoke and mark
von oppen i i this sounds weird to say now But
he was the first person I ever heard say out
loud and proud of it to say, you can be good
at this job. You can be a kick ass firefighter
and be proud of it and brag about it. And he
was the first person I ever heard say that. And
it blew my mind because. It was always, this
is just a job, man. Why you wouldn't be a firefighter?
You want to be good at being a firefighter? What,
you think you're a hero? That kind of mentality
towards it. But he was the first one that said,
no, you can be badass at this job and be proud
of it. And that completely changed my mindset.
And I got to see him in Indianapolis last year
at FDIC. And he was, you know, they had a dinner
and we got to toast his retirement. And I got
to tell him that for the first time, because
I don't think I'd ever told him how big of an
impact he'd had. Like, I wouldn't exist without
Dave McGill and Mark Von Oppen doing what they
did. But I basically started Firehouse Vigilance.
2018 was I founded Firehouse Vigilance and I
was going to make a big difference in my department.
That was my plan. Dave McGill spoke at the Orlando
Fire Conference a few years ago. And, you know,
I had a funny feeling. I knew what he was going
to say, but I asked him from a firefighter fitness
point of view, you know, how many floors do you
expect a firefighter to be able to climb? And
he said, I'll never forget this, to the top of
the tallest building in my city. And I was like,
mic drop, walk out. But it's true. And you think
of Denver, there's a lot of tall buildings. You
think of Orlando, you think of LA and New York
and all these other places. Worst case scenario,
like we talked about. You should be able to make
it to the top. Are you going to be racing up
like a gazelle? Of course not. But when the elevators
don't work and there's people up there that need
to be rescued, that is the expectation, which
obviously factors back to our earlier tactical
athlete conversation. Absolutely. And not to
mention, if you want to talk about Denver, there's
no air there. So let's be real. They're tall
and there's no air. Yeah, I snowboarded there
once and I've never been so winded in my life.
It's crazy. No doubt about it. All right. So
you want to change your department. I have experienced
personally, and I've heard many people, I think
even Mark and some other people, the profit is
never received in their own land, as they say.
What was the impact on your department? And if
it wasn't as expected, were you surprised when
you were having an impact on other departments
instead? Both. Absolutely. And 100 percent, it
was it went over like a lead balloon. You know,
I started writing articles first, you know, and
I'm a voracious reader. I love to read. In fact,
you can see I got bookshelves on both sides and
they're full of of plan to read books and books
I've read. But I would take those things I read
and I would write articles based on them. And
you can imagine that those I mean, don't get
me wrong. I got people that enjoyed reading them
and I got feedback from friends and people I
had relationships with. But outside of the close
relationships, it was like. literally the proverbial
lead balloon. And so, but one of the things that
did, I started the firehouse vigilance. I think
it was Instagram page with, with the, the, the
memes that were basically a quote from, you know,
general Patton, but it was a fire firefighter
scene that I I'd bury the quote in. And I had
a lot of fun making those just creatively artistically,
but those actually started catching some traction
and getting liked and shared and things like
that. And that was actually the first outside
of my own, you know, that was taken off, but
I was very frustrated that no one, I don't know
how you say it, appreciated my articles. No one
liked it. It was some unknown dude from Moore,
Oklahoma, writing articles on leadership. What
does he know? Or culture or insert whatever tactic
I wanted to write about. And so my wife is the
one who said, why don't you go live on Facebook
and just talk about it instead? Because she's
a realtor. And at the time, 2018, 2019, Facebook
Live was a big deal with realtors going and doing
like. tours of houses, you know? And I was, I
told her, I remember to this day, I was like,
that's one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard.
I'm never going to do that. And so, and then
like two weeks later, I did my first live, uh,
on, and it was a weekly scrap and I started it
as a phone, uh, based me talking to the phone
about my articles. And that was the start of
it. And number, I did 10 of them. And I very
quickly realized this is, and I think you probably
know this. If you, You only have so much stuff
to say. That's why the guests are so important.
The guests are so, I didn't realize this at first,
but after like 10 episodes, I pretty much said
everything I was going to say. It was going to
be regurgitated at, you know, and different angles,
but it was all the same stuff. And I had my first
guest on, which was Court Smith out of OKC Fire.
He was the union president or no, the fools president
of our fools chapter there. And he actually told
me at the fools meeting, he said, Hey, Corley,
I want to come on your show. And I was like,
Holy shit. I didn't know you even knew about
my show, you know, but when I interviewed him
and I didn't even know how to do it, I think
we, you know, at the time you could invite a
person into your Facebook live and you can, it's
still on YouTube. You can see it as terrible
as far as quality, but he came on and I loved
it. It lasted like maybe 16 minutes, but interviewing
him was so much better than me talking. And from
that point forward, all I wanted to do was try
and book people. And I can still remember to
this day. uh, Rick Lasky, I think he was number
37. So from number 11 to 37, there was only 27
in between. But I remember like I'd done like
five or six guests and I was like, man, Rick
Lasky, I love Rick pride and ownership changed.
Another thing that really impacted my journey
was that book pride and ownership, which I read
right about the same time as I saw Dave McGrail
and Mark Von Oppen. But I was like, I typed out
a whole long message to him on Facebook messenger.
And I was like sitting there and I was in a hotel
room down in Houston, attending how to a class
for how to put together four gas monitors. And
I can still remember just like almost hitting
the button, but backing off and almost hitting
the button and backing off. I'm like, I don't
think my ego could handle if he just said, if
he, if he told me, no, I'm not coming on your
show. You know what I'm saying? But I finally
hit the send button. And you probably know this
as good as anybody with the number of guests
you have on. It's amazing how gracious people
are and how amazing they are when you just reach
out and are genuine with them and the relationships
you can build. And it's so powerful. So he said
yes. He came on. And now he's the person I close
each year with. It's a tradition that Rick Lasky
comes on, and it's kind of the state of the fire
service according to Pride and Ownership. Beautiful.
Yeah, I can totally attest to what you said.
The only time I've actually monologued on the
podcast is the very first one, which is just
me talking about this podcast that I'm going
to start. And then the one I did on 2448, 2472,
excuse me, and all the Q &As that I was answering
because I'd heard it so many times. I want to
create a resource to send to people. But yeah,
when I first started. I sent 10 emails out and
I'd done sales in London years ago, like on the
street, like full on cold calling. And it was
like, well, if you, if you ask 10 people, one
person will say yes. And it might, you might
have to ask a hundred and the last 10 will say
yes. You don't know what the ratio is. Right.
Right. But anyway, so I send these 10 emails
out, all 10 of them say yes. And I'm like, oh
shit, that's two and a half months worth of,
of interviews I've just got. So that's why I
ended up adding more per week, but I don't know
if you've had this. As the years have gone on,
as more and more podcasts have come out, it's
a lot harder now to get to that person. When
you get hold of them and they know who you are
and they understand the platform, more often
than not, it's a yes and it's beautiful. But
the way to get to people, the thing has just
become so much white noise now that I wish it
was 2016 where you just send an email, they see
it straight away, they respond yes or no, that's
fine. And then you move on. But it's become a
lot more diluted now, I think. Oh, without a
doubt. Without a doubt. Anybody can start a podcast.
And there's a lot of people that do. That's probably
one of the number one things. I'm sure you get
the same thing. They say, hey, I'm thinking about
starting a podcast. And they're asking for advice
or some insight or whatever. And one thing I
tell people all the time is, because I'll get
asked to be on podcasts. And I've learned to
answer with this, which is, hey, I'm 100%. I'd
love to come on your podcast. Get to episode
20. And I'm not big -timing you. I'm not saying
I won't unless you have 20 episodes. I'm challenging
you. Get to 20 episodes, and I will gladly come
on your show. And A, I never hear from 99 % of
them ever again because they do one or two episodes,
and they're gone. And they're like, well, this
is harder than I thought, and it's not that fun.
It's not what I thought it was is basically what
they figure out. But if you make it to 20, you're
the real deal. Like, I think it's a Chris Williamson
and I don't know, again, I don't check the stats,
but he said, if you make it to 20 episodes, you're
basically in the top 5 % of podcasts. And it's
like, but there are so many that start and they're,
and they have fire and they're, and they've got
a good mission and they're going to be awesome.
And they do one episode and then, and then two
episodes and then a month later, a third episode.
And then. Three months later, a teaser, and then
they're gone. And they mean well, but it creates
this, you said it best, white noise. Now, one
thing between me and you is your guest list is
super, like you touch a lot that I don't have
the reach to. So mine's very focused on firefighting
only. I've never had a non -firefighter guest
yet. I plan to, we've talked about when is it
going to happen? But so for me, it's, it's makes
it, I think easier because it is that focus.
And so because of the success of the scrap, most
people know who it is. And whereas if I was a
broader thing, they're like, what are you talking
about? And so I could absolutely see it, especially
with the prestige of some of the guests you've
had on. Yeah. Well, it's funny in reverse though,
because mine isn't fire focused. If you Google
firefighter podcasts, mine has never shown up
in eight years. I am a firefighter. Yeah. No,
that's crazy. We talk about the fire service,
but yeah, I don't. And I think, you know, some
of these lists you got to submit your name to.
And I'm like, no, I'm not going to do that. Like
if it's, you know, if, if, if, if it's worthy
of being in a certain list, then put it in a
list. But it's like these podcast awards. Now
you have to submit yourself to really get an
award. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know enough
about that. I don't know. Yeah, no, I don't,
I don't like awards anyway. I mean, even in the
fire service, like the scrap was the same. the
scrap was the same when you type in firefighter
podcast it would i could never find the weekly
scrap or i'd have to scroll to like the 10th
page of google and so finally i renamed it on
my you know the push out the weekly scrap comma
firefighter podcast and then about a year later
so about four years in it finally started showing
up because i i didn't know how to brand i didn't
know how to tag you know all that stuff and i'm
not submitting to anybody to say please no no
exactly All right. Well then, so that's Firehouse
Vigilance. Let's kind of progress through the
book of search. You've got some of the people
that are in there being on the show. Eric Wheaton,
for example, I took his VES class in Orlando.
Amazing, amazing class. Sadly, I got into that
late in my career. I wish I'd been taught that
when I was a young firefighter. Oh, absolutely.
So some great, great names on there. Rob Ramirez.
Talk to me about the... the kind of genesis of
that book. And then, you know, what have you
seen as far as the ripple effects of it since
you put it out? Oh, right there. I had to get
that. A, I would give all credit out the gate
to a conversation I had with Zach Golombeski.
I say this in the back page of the book where
I talk about kind of the story of the book of
search, how it came to be. Zach Golombeski, great
firefighter out of Kansas. He's heavily involved
there in training and the state firefighter association
and everything there. But he reached out to me
through social media or an email maybe and said,
hey, I'm really looking for a resource on search,
just specifically, especially with the new data
coming out, the ULFSRI studies, the firefighter
rescue survey data. Is there anything out there?
And I was like, you know, holy shit, there's
really not. There's good classes to take. And
there's people that speak on it, you know, quite
often and break down the, you know, there's all
these. But no, there's not. And that was kind
of the genesis of it. And he, and I think he
even said, wouldn't it be cool if there was a
resource that was a, there was all these people
that teach all this stuff. And that got it going
in my head. Now, one really cool thing I have
because of the scrap is a, is a great network.
Like I, I, I think I've told you this before
is I'm really proud of my guest to friend conversionary.
And you know, if, if you're a guest on the show,
then you become my friend and I have no issue
calling you up and saying, Hey, what do you think
about this? Or I, you know, I have a lot of subject
matter experts on a lot. And I can only imagine
what yours is like because the diversity of what
you talk to. Mine is strictly firefighting. But
because of that, I was like, it would be awesome
if I reached out to all these people that are
in my network and had each of them write an article
on a specific aspect of search. I think that'd
be great. And that was the initial idea. And
then I was like, but wait, I don't want it to
be for money because that I can't, hey, I wouldn't
even be. able to begin to figure out how to pay
royalties to people who can, you know, that would
be just a nightmare. So I said, what if it was
all for a great cause? And of course I love firefighter
rescue survey. So I called Nick and said, Nick,
Nick Ledeen, he's my contact at firefighter rescue
survey. There's a whole bunch of great dudes
that run it and operate it. But I called him
because he's my guy. And I said, Nick, this is
my idea. I want to put together this book. And
I want to give all the money from the sale of
the, I want to give the book away for free. First
of all, the PDF, anybody can download it. It's
free. Everybody can have it, share it, add to
it, do whatever you want with it. But the hardback
big, beautiful, bad -ass hardback and all the
proceeds go to firefighter rescue survey. Are
you okay with that? Was my, my pitch to him.
And he said, it's crazy. You say that. And again,
everything happens for a reason because firefighter
rescue survey a couple of years before had started
a project. that was basically kind of the same
thing they were going to make what was called
the search manual and they had worked on it for
for a couple months but it kind of lost steam
they had of course the rescue survey to do and
other stuff on their plates so when i came in
they were like yeah let's we kind of merged and
but one thing they had was this big long beautiful
list of topics that they'd made everything they'd
brainstormed and created this list which became
the article list for the book of search so that
list as I knock over everything on my desk, that
list became, it was merged with the network of
the scrap. And I started plugging names into
articles and they had some articles already written.
They had some good ones already written. So I
don't want to shortchange the work they'd done.
But the bulk of it came from the network and
the list being merged. And the next 18 months
later. There was a lot of Eric Wheaton. You brought
up Eric Wheaton. I was like, ooh, searching with
a can. There's only one person that can write
that. It has to be Eric Wheaton. I called Eric
Wheaton. He's like, man, I'd love to, but I'm
going through a battalion chief's test. I really
don't want to commit to that. I was like, hey,
I respect that. That's way better than the people
that committed to me and then never delivered,
which is a whole other issue. So massive respect
for it. And, but because of that, because I reached
out to Richie stack up in Chicago and he, you
know, I wanted someone, I didn't want to just
go straight to F I had a bunch of FDNY guys or
say a bunch, quite a few FDNY guys writing articles.
I didn't want to just keep going FDNY. So I reached
out to Chicago and got someone else to write
a large area search class. And because Eric Wheaton
said no, but then Eric Wheaton came back and
said, Hey, I actually, yeah, I could, I can get
it done. And anyway, like I said, everything
happens for a reason stuff along the way. reached
out to Paul Combs and said, Hey, would you be
willing to make a cover for this? You know? And
I told him, I gave him the pitch and he's like,
absolutely. And if you've seen it, I don't have,
I don't have anything within reach to grab, but
the cover is amazing. In fact, he just released
the full print on his website or on his social
media. So I'll give him a plug. But the full
print, I wish. I don't even have the name of
it. I think it's like the devil's do or something,
but it's, it's the main artwork, but it's the
expanded version. So you can see like the flames.
It's the part you can't see on the cover. It's
like the devil's face coming for the victim and
the, and the firefighters are trying to rescue
him from the flames. It's, it's, it's, it's a
pretty powerful print. But he did that. All of
it. Just, it was amazing. Like the whole thing
was synergy in action. Cause it was so much better
than the sum of its parts. And it turned out
so it actually, I still remember when the proof
came in from Amazon, the hardback, my wife said,
Hey, the book's in the book's in. And we'd been
waiting a week to get it. Cause I'd submitted
it the week before, you know, after doing all
of the edits, all the digital edits over and
over and over. And she brought it up to the firehouse
just so I can open it up. And I pulled it out
and I was like, almost like, Oh, please don't
let all this work. And it looked like shit, you
know? Cause, and, and when I pulled it, it was
actually like, Holy crap, this turned out beautiful.
Like. It looks, it doesn't look like a firefighter
made it, is what I'll say. And it turned out
really good. And it's, just to run numbers, throw
numbers at you, as of two days ago, the last
time I checked, it sold over 7 ,000. The hardback
had sold over 7 ,000 copies and $95 ,000 raised
from the sale of the hardback going to firefighter,
100 % of the profits going to firefighter rescue
survey. Not a dime for anything going to anywhere
else. Other than what Amazon makes. I can't speak
for them. But the PDF, the free digital download,
has been downloaded over 10 ,000 times from my
website. And that is just what I can track. I
can't track the shares, the Google Drive that
is on, the prints, everything that's been made
for it. That's incredible. Dude, I'm telling
you, it's one of the coolest things I've ever
been a part of. And I'm very proud of it. And
very humbled by the fire services. how amazing
i think brian brush said it's amazing what we
can accomplish when we have a common goal or
a common enemy and and this was a common goal
thing that just got absolutely knocked out of
the park i mean just that topic as well is so
important i think about you know obviously working
for all these different departments you know
you had different areas like my first one their
search training was phenomenal you know and and
you you know you they would have no problem leaving
the nozzleman on the nozzle and sending the backup
guy you know way back to manage corners and feed
hose and then i get to anaheim amazing amazing
truck work you know you're cutting roofs and
you know building construction and all the things
but when it came to the nozzle it was still very
much like oh don't leave that leave the nozzle
guy so you had you know hose management there
when i think about the search training hire leah's
tower It was like a townhome inside, and they
had furniture. They had things that you had to
search around. They had closets. They had all
kinds of stuff. They were way ahead of the game.
It was incredible. My entry to the fire service,
I couldn't be more blessed in the bar that was
set for me. But even think about, oh, you start
at the base of the fire, and then you work your
way back. You're searching, or primary search
from the front door. I reflect now on the way
I was taught. It's like, all right, you've done
a right -hand search. then you get to the fire
and you can't search around the fire because
it's two rooms deep. How do you continue that
search? I mean, there's a lot of questions that
were never really answered. You just have to
kind of think about it. So having a manual. Exactly.
So I think it's brilliant. No, and there's so
much thing, oriented search and split search
and VES and just considerations. And yeah, again,
I can't say, I don't want to say this real quick.
I'll give it the plug. It's free to anybody out
there. You can go download it. PDF, go to firehousevigilance
.com. You can find it in the menu there and download
it for free. It is a free resource. Share it
with everybody. Print it off. Put it on your
Google Drive. Share it on social media. Share
it everywhere. It's a free resource. If you want
a big, beautiful, badass hardback with the artwork
of Paul Combs on the cover and all of it, go
to Amazon and look for the book of search. Just
don't get one of the fake ones. I think most
of them have been removed, but there are fake
ones, so make sure it's the real one. You can
tell by the AI art that looks really similar,
but it's not. Yeah, well, I would say as well,
if you want to give back to the fire service,
buy a hardback. I mean, the PDF there is there
to share with other people, but contribute. I
think it's beautiful what you're doing. Thank
you. And a really cool part of it, there's 43
authors that wrote articles, 46 articles, 43
authors. And in the back, there is a section
with... You know, each there's four per page,
but there's each author that contributed and
it's their alphabetical. So if you want to see
what Brian Brush wrote, you can go there and
say, OK, his his articles on page 157. If you
want to see what Mike Champo wrote, you know,
you go look it up in his pages, you know, whatever,
whatever. That's to find the article. But next
to their picture in their bio is a place for
them to sign. And so the goal is it's like Pokemon.
You buy the hardback book. And then as you travel
around, you can find all the authors and get
them to sign your book. And if you get them all,
you got to catch them all. So if I see firefighters
walking around a random park with their phone,
they're looking for Rob Fisher. That's it. That
is it. He's got to catch them. Yeah. all right
well i want to hit one more topic before we throw
some closing questions at you um you wrote a
book on firefighter you know marriages on families
i know you're developing a class for that as
well so what made you and your wife put that
together and what are some of the the takeaways
you think people listening need to know yeah
great question why did we write it is because
as as i've traveled And my wife is, if you know
Amanda at all, she is heavily involved in firehouse
vigilance. She is my number one supporter and
she makes it all work. She is amazing. Okay.
So I can't speak enough about her, but she's
heavily involved in the fire service from a spousal
position. And she interacts with a lot of spouses
and there was a need. And one thing about, and
this is the book Broken Tools. One thing about
the book is we, it. It is a relationship book.
It is not really specifically firefighter relationship
book. And so I want to be clear, like if you,
you're not going to get a ton of, now it's written
by a 28 year firefighter and his wife. So a ton
of that bleeds into it, but it's not specifically
aimed at firefighters. So I want to be very clear,
but it is a relationship book. It's everything
that me and my wife, we've been together 32 years
now, and we've been to the darkest. And then
to the mountaintops, you know, and the lessons
we wish we would have known as two young, dumb
kids who got married at age 18 and 19. You know,
we knew nothing. And somehow, grace of God and
luck of the dice and everything else you want
to throw in there. We made it and survived and
didn't kill each other along the way, despite
our best efforts. And so and really, it's about
understanding expectations. And I mean, the chapters
are communication, expectation, inspiration,
dedication. And it really is about understanding,
getting on the same page with your spouse, no
matter what that looks like, but being on the
same page. Because most problems come from the
communication breakdown that doesn't allow you
to be on the same page and working in the same
direction. Because it's unreal what you can accomplish
when you're on the same page. Beautiful. There
was one thing I wanted to ask you. I listened
to you on... I think it was at Virginia Beach
Fire. They have a podcast. Have I got that right?
Yes. And you mentioned that you recently became
grandparents. Yes. So do you have any school
age kids or are they all left now? No, my youngest
is 24. So oldest is 27. It's 27, 26, 24. We had
our children very young and we couldn't figure
out what was going on, but we were having fun
and then the kids came. We weren't very smart.
I'll put it that way. But I wouldn't trade anything.
But it was a journey that is our journey. Well,
the reason I ask this question is I've got a
bonus boy. My stepson is 23 now. My son is 17.
He'll be going to Utah State. Oh, wow. Yeah.
Yeah, it's amazing. But now I'm finally realizing
that this child that I poured 18 years of my
life into is going to be gone soon. And that
was my primary purpose. I mean, even my drive
on changing, you know, the firefighting conditions
is so that we can be present with our children.
Talk to me about the empty nest element, because
when we, you know, tongue in cheek, talk about
midlife crisis, you know, it always because you
gain weight and you're balding and, you know,
that's why you buy a sports car. I think a lot
of that comes from the fact that a lot of parents
probably do pour their heart and souls into their
kids. And then one day they're on their own path,
which is beautiful. But I'm starting to feel.
The depression, the anxiety, just, you know,
I mean, not in a massive way, but the realization
that one day I'll wake up and he's out, you know,
probably forging his own family in a few years.
So what was the impact of that for you and your
wife? Well, I think if you're a good parent.
You then, then your kids are your center of your
world. You know, if you're a good parent and
that's a good, healthy thing, the way it should
be. Now, the problem is, is that becomes your
anchor, your, your, your true North, your, your
guidepost for everything. It's your, it's that
sale that keeps you on course, the rudder, whatever
you want to call all the analogies you can make.
And my wife, especially like she exists. for
her her children i mean she is an amazing woman
and and they are the center of her world and
and uh and we talk about it in the book because
when that goes if you are not on the same page
with your spouse if you are not communicating
well and on the and moving in the same direction
with shared expectations and shared priorities
then it's turbulence you are going to be you're
going to be flapping in the wind as you try and
hopefully you settle back in and figure things
out and that's most people's journey But you
can absolutely be deliberate about understanding
what's coming and understanding that that has
been your keel that has kept you even and moving
smoothly, and that's about to be gone. And so
for us, I had an uncle that's a little bit older
than me, and he went through it. He had the same
journey as me, got married very young, had kids
very young. He's about 10 years older than me.
And we were very close. And he told, you know,
when their kids moved out, they almost got a
divorce, basically. I mean, I might be I might
be a little bit exaggerated, but they had a very
tough time because all of a sudden everything
they had in common was gone and they had to rediscover
themselves. And that's a journey a lot of people
go on. But because of their sharing the lesson
with us, me and Amanda have been, I think, very
smooth in our transition. And we had a graduated
27 -year -old, 26 -year -old, 24 -year -old.
So we kind of got a gradual introduction. And
then grandparenthood, holy smokes. Every grandparent
ever has told me. I'm very new to this. It's
two months ago. He was supposed to be here two
weeks ago. He showed up around Thanksgiving.
So he was very early. Super healthy, everything
great. That little, I call him my gorilla. He's
my gorilla. And I'm telling you, I will, I just
went over this morning and just so I could feed
him and burp him. And, uh, before the podcast,
because it's unreal, the difference. And I love
my kids and I, and I think I was a good father
and I was, you know, invested in them. And therefore
it's different. Now I'm a different person and,
and it's different. Okay. So I won't sit here
and gush about being a grandpa. No, I'm glad
I asked though, because this is just something
that I've never really thought about talking
about until very recently where it really hit
me. And I think it's, you know, it's another
part of the whole emotional mental health relationship
story. And you're very, very strong in mental
health. You have a very strong foundation. So
you can talk to the wife and say, listen, this
is coming. Let's, like we've already talked about,
talking is the most important thing you can do
about it. So talk about it. And you guys will
be on the same page when it happens. So what
you go through, you go through together. Absolutely.
All right. Well, the very first of the closing
questions, we talked about your books. Are there
any books written by other people that you'd
love to recommend? It can be related to our discussion
or completely unrelated. Oh, brother. I'm reading
Ray Dalio's Principles right now, and it's one
of the best books I've read in so long. I've
told this book to so many people, but as far
as my recency bias. That book, because I'm reading
it, I'm almost finished with it. I've been reading
it. It's almost like a devotional. I have to
go back and revisit it. Such an amazing book
as far as being an effective person. And on that
vein, you get me talking about books. I'll talk
for an hour. So you got to shut me down when
you want to shut me down. Seven Habits, Highly
Effective People by Stephen Covey. I credit that
book to the book that changed me being a wishy
-washy ADHD, chasing everything to actually being
effective because of the principles in that book.
The Culture Code, Daniel Coyle. It makes – if
you want to understand how to – why some places
thrive and others are just toxic. Man, the culture
code really – it encapsulates – another one of
my favorite books is Leaders Eat Last, Simon
Sinek. Phenomenal book. Great book. And it's
why some teams succeed while others fail. But
Simon Sinek and Culture Code, I kind of, they're
very similar books. Culture Code is like a diet,
diet's the wrong words. I don't mean it like
it's watered down. It's like a easier to digest
version of Simon Sinek's Leaders Eat Last. So,
man, I could keep going. I could look, but I'll
leave it at, those are all, and I'm very big
on culture, organizational culture, self -determination
theory, and understanding human motivation. Those
are big ones for me that I really like to dig
into. Beautiful. So I'll leave them on there.
Excellent. All right. And then what about films
and documentaries that you love? Probably my
favorite. I'm a nerd, so I love all things sci
-fi fantasy. And there's very, very little good
sci -fi fantasy. So I say that written word.
There's amazing stuff. Brandon Sanderson, I love.
But that's books again. As far as movies, documentaries,
I love Band of Brothers. The book also amazing
by Ambrose, but there's so many lessons in band
of brothers. In fact, I love it so much. I've
seen it. Probably. I've probably literally seen
all 10 episodes a dozen times and I own it on
Amazon so I can stream it anytime. But if a new
rookie gets assigned to station one, I'll ask
him, have you seen band of brothers? And they'll
be like, especially now. No. What are you talking
about? I'm like, all right, sweet. And we'll
watch it together because it's just, it's just
a Dick winners and his leadership principles
is just phenomenal. I'm not a huge documentary
person. My wife will watch every documentary
under the sun. I'm not a big television person.
In fact, if it wasn't for streaming services,
we don't have any cable or anything like that
just because I just don't take the time to do
it. At the fire station, when they decide to
watch a movie, I have to be intentional about
hanging out with them and watching the movie
because I'm like, I got better things to do.
I like a good movie for entertainment, but I
have to do it on purpose. I can relate to that.
Band of Brothers is phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal.
I think we talked about it in your show, the
book I just wrote, Kinder. That's kind of the
analogy that I'm using is the fire service version
of Band of Brothers. Something raw and gritty
with its takeaways and you sit around the firehouse
talking about it after going, oh, I never thought
of it that way. Are you going to have Kinder
made into a miniseries? That's my goal. That's
awesome. No, that'll be phenomenal. We'll have
to have a discussion of who gets cast for each
role. Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited. I mean,
I know people that are in that industry. So it's
just a case now of them reading it and hoping
that they're hooked by it. But I mean, I've said
this many times. We're just not represented properly
on TV or in film. You know, I think Ladder 49
was phenomenal. I think Only the Brave was phenomenal.
Backdraft, you know, For Its Time was great.
But I mean, on television, you know, I'd say
maybe the first episode of the first season of
Rescue Me was, you know, probably. But that's
not firing EMS together either, you know. So
and then you got Chicago Fire and Tacoma FD.
So you've got models saving other models, or
you've got fat and lazy firefighters doing firehouse
pranks all day. So I think there's space for
a band of brothers for the fire service that
really sows some seeds and shows the public what
we actually do. And therefore, hopefully, we'll
increase the support when we're asking for changes
that will save our lives and allow us to save
theirs. managed to pull off doing especially
with kinder's uh whole mission and story the
the whole arc uh if you pull it off it will be
it'll be a game changer and i i i'm 100 with
you there's a massive hole that needs to be filled
with it if it's done right it will be amazing
absolutely yeah let me know what i can do to
to push it i wish i had your network i would
i would push but yeah yeah well we'll see it's
probably an all -hands job as they say so All
right. Well, then the next question, I mean,
you've had so many people on your show as well.
Is there a person you'd recommend to come on
this podcast as a guest to speak to the first
responders, military and associated professions
of the world? Man, I'm pretty sure you've had
Frank Viscuso on. Yes. Okay. I was going to say,
I'm afraid everybody I say you've probably had
on because you're a millennium worth of episodes.
Oh, good Lord. To speak to military first responders.
I wish I would have done a better research. Frank
Lieb, have you had Frank Lieb on yet? I just
interviewed him for the second time with Dean
Ali, talking about their new... Yeah, mental
health and his whole new... I want to keep saying
people because, yeah, that's my fault. I should...
Well, I'll tell you a couple. Firstly, I need
to reach out to Dave McGill. Oh, if you haven't
had Dave McGill, Dave McGill's phenomenal. Brian
Brush is another one that keeps coming up that
I haven't reached out to yet. Yeah, sorry. That's
me locking up on my brain because there are so
many good ones that I've had on just to be, you
know, yeah, 100%. Brian Brush, Dave McGrail,
out of California, Eric Saylors. I don't know
if you've had Eric Saylors on. I have not. Holy
smokes, dude. He is one of my favorite interviews.
He is brilliant, first of all. I don't know how
many doctorates he has. He'll tell you, do you
want to talk to Eric the Viking? Because his
Nordic heritage, or do you want to talk to Dr.
Saylors? And again, phenomenal person. He headed
a seven -year study on mass casualty incidents
and the findings from dealing with them. It's
a phenomenal interview. It's one of my favorite
scraps. I pass it out all the time. It has a
ton of value. But that by itself is a phenomenal
discussion. His doctorate thesis, I believe I
could be getting the terminology wrong, was over
quantifying the value of a person on a rig and
actually put numbers to it to saying this is
how much it's worth to a city. And I can prove
it with numbers, putting a fourth person on a
rig instead of having three man rigs. And that
whole discussion, he's phenomenal. He's a real
big brain person. And but also a fun interview
at the same time. If you haven't had him, someone
just had him on. I think it was. fire nuggets
that just had him on and again i've had him on
twice and i can't say that enough he's one of
my favorite interviews brilliant well i always
if i get him on i always listen to other people's
podcasts to prepare so i'll make sure i listen
to yours because then it sounds like you know
you really got into the weeds with him which
is brilliant no and his mass casualty stuff is
game changing for response because they they
threw everything out the window and said why
are we doing this and looked at what's actually
effective anyway i could talk sorry No, I don't
apologize. That's amazing. I appreciate all the
suggestions. And I'll think of 25 more people
after I'm done. I'm like, why didn't I say? Why
didn't I say? McGrail, Brush, Sailors, go. All
right. Absolutely. All right. Well, the last
question before we make sure everyone knows where
to find you, you know, Firehouse Vigilance and
all the books. What do you do to decompress?
I love, and that makes me more of a nerd. I love
video games. I really do. And not just, and actually
I was a gamer, a big gamer nerd younger, but
I don't really play any single player games or
anything. I play a lot of games with my kiddos
because that's how we stay connected actually.
through discord we get on and we'll chat while
we play and it's a i i i'm one of the things
i'm most proud of as an adult male is that my
kids still will log in and play a game with me
and we'll we'll go kick some kids asses you know
together and play some games which games do you
like the most you do a lot of league of legends
honestly uh the i don't know if you know anything
about mobas or anything like that but like i
said i'll get nerdy with it uh some first person
shooters um i got kicked out of call of duty
for being a cheater and It wouldn't be so bad,
except I wasn't a cheater. But they kicked me.
They banned my account. And I refused to buy
another copy of the game because if I'd have
been cheating, I'd buy another account. But you
can look at how terrible I was at the game. And
if I was cheating, I was the world's worst cheater.
So anyway, they kicked me out for being a hacker.
So that was one we would play first -person shooters.
Anything that we could kind of just disconnect
and play without having to do a lot of. I guess
we also play Civilization quite a bit, which
is a world domination game that's quite a bit
of fun. But anyway, sorry. That is my number
one relaxation thing. Besides me and the wife,
now that we're empty nesters, we love to go and
sit at a restaurant, but we'll go sit at the
bar. And it's not that we're just getting...
In fact, I'm actually sober since August 8th,
mainly because I'm trying to get more physically
fit. You know, it's just it's not really an alcohol
related thing so much as although the benefits
of not drinking is phenomenal. It's not really
for that reason. I'm trying to lose my beer belly.
And so long story short is we'll go sit at the
bar because we'd love to just sit and decompress
and we'll connect with each other there. And
the service at the bar is phenomenal. You don't
have to wait for the waiter or anything like
that. And so that's one of our favorite things
to do. Love it. Yes. With the video game, I got
my Instagram shut down last year for posting
kindness videos. I was told that it, you know,
copyright infringement, all kinds of stuff. And
I'm like, I've been doing this for eight years,
9000 videos and all of a sudden now. And it wasn't
even like this is your first strike. It was like,
boom. So, yeah, there's a lot of shady shit behind
the scenes of some of those. But what are you
going to do? It's their it's their platform.
You can't really think about it. So, no, that's
yeah, that's terrible. I mean, it is what it
is, but yeah, 200 ,000 people and then that down
to, to, you know, working more up to 2000. So,
yeah, but again, it's, you know, it's a, it's
a social media platform. Yes. It was helpful,
but it's not the nucleus of the project. The
podcast is. All right. Well then for people listening,
where are the best places to find you and everything
that you do online and or social media? Firehousevigilance
.com. We'll have links to everything. It's the
one stop. place to get everything mainly the
pdf of the book of search it's the best place
to find it although it's everywhere any place
you can find it um social media if you search
for firehouse vigilance you should see it should
not be an issue and then the weekly scrap that's
the one thing i didn't brand well was the podcast
is is is the weekly scrap but