WEBVTT

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This episode of the Behind the Shield podcast

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is brought to you by 5 .11 Tactical, a company

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work with still wear some of the clothes that

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code SHIELD at 511tactical .com. Welcome guys

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to episode 287 of Behind the Shield podcast.

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As always, my name is James Gearing and this

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week I am extremely excited to welcome on the

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show MMA legendary coach Greg Jackson. Now Greg

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is obviously known for training so many of the

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elite in the UFC, Bellator and other MMA arenas.

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But lesser known is behind the scenes, he coaches

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both the military and law enforcement and is

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also deeply involved in Deliver Fund, which is

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the anti -human trafficking organization led

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by Nick McKinley, who I had on the show about

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a year ago now. So as I've said in many of these

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intros, you, the audience, power the scope of

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this podcast. This is a free library with incredible

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minds from all around planet Earth. And my goal

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is to get these episodes to every single person

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who needs to hear it because it will literally

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change their lives. So there's a couple of ways

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you can help. Firstly, go to the app that you

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listen to this on, whether it's Stitcher, iTunes,

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SoundCloud. Subscribe to the show. Leave feedback,

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and most importantly, leave a rating. The more

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five -star ratings we get, the more visible we

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are on all the charts of those apps. And then

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take your email, social media, word of mouth,

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and just share. Tell people about the podcast.

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Tell about an episode that really resonated with

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you. The more we share, the more this grows,

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the more people literally around planet Earth

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can improve their lives, their health, and their

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mental wellness. So with that being said, I introduce

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to you Greg Jackson. Enjoy. Greg, I want to start

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by saying thank you so much for taking the time

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and being patient with the technical side for

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coming on the Behind the Shield podcast. Oh,

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no worries. Thanks for having me on. It's my

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pleasure. Now, where are we finding your planet

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Earth today? My planet Earth? Well, it's probably

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maybe not one centralized planet, but it's probably

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about 12 little satellite planets moving around

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some bizarre center of gravity that's able to

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hold it. I think that would be a more accurate

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assessment of my situation at the moment. I keep

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planet jumping. Right. But you're in Albuquerque

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today? Oh, as far as my actual physical location,

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I am in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I thought we

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were talking metaphorically. No. Literally, I

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am sitting in my house in Albuquerque, New Mexico,

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one of my favorite places on the earth. Brilliant.

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Well, I would love to start chronologically at

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the beginning. So where were you born? And then

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just tell me a little about your family dynamic.

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I was born in Washington, D .C. I was raised

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by two amazing people, Jim and Chris Jackson

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from the Midwest. They were products of the 60s

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in that they actually believed in helping people

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and kind of had that hippie ethos, but not as

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like a. a trendy thing to do, but like as a lifestyle

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choice. So, uh, they, my uncle had moved out,

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gone to the Peace Corps, my uncle Pete, and I

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had moved to Southern New Mexico because he was

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doing the Peace Corps in Mexico. And they came

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out here and kind of fell in love with it. And,

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uh, both of them dedicated their lives to, uh,

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my, my mother was a cardiac nurse forever. And

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my father, uh, for 30, I don't know how many

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years. Basically, as long as I can remember,

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I worked for an organization called Disability

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Rights New Mexico, which advocates for handicapped

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people, both legally and kind of, what's the

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word? If there's like some of the mental institutions

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here were a little basically torture chamber.

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So we shut those down and stuff like that. Oh,

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that's incredible. I want to stay on that for

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a moment then. So firstly, with your mom, what

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was her observation? Being a cardiac nurse of

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the growing ill health through terrible nutrition

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that we have here, knowing obviously through

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the fitness and nutrition work that you do through

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your athletes, what does she observe from a cardiac

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nurse perspective of the health of Americans

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in general? Well, I think she was kind of the

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last line. She was the emergency, like when you

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were in a lot of trouble with your heart. So

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a lot of people were very elderly. There were

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a lot of obese people. But I actually have never

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sat down with her. It's a really good question.

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I'll do that immediately. I've never sat down

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with her and saw what her take on it was. We

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were raised ultra healthy. We weren't allowed

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any sugar, me and my little brother as children.

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We were eating grape nuts and Nutri -Grain cereals,

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that kind of stuff. Um, we germ with every meal,

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Brussels sprouts, you know, the, the, uh, uh,

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the kind of the, the seventies diet that when

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people were really beginning to understand about

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eating healthy, I think. Um, so as far as that

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end of it, so, um, I think that it played an

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impact on her, but she saw a lot of people that

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were very elderly as well that actually had,

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you know, labored their whole life and, and,

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uh, uh you know eating relatively natural and

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healthy because new mexico is a very rural place

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we had a lot of access to that stuff um and so

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uh yeah she was uh i'll have to sit down and

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ask her about that question but certainly it's

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an epidemic there's no doubt about that yeah

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well it's been coming from a healthy eating perspective

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i mean she's probably witnessed this this with

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the uh The way that many people believe that

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these diseases are irreversible and they need

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their statins and their blood pressure meds and

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their cholesterol meds versus the actual healing

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properties that just a good diet and good exercise

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regime can give you. That's the foundation, right?

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Genetically, you might need some of that stuff,

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but if you have a great foundation of good exercise

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and good food, that's a heck of a place to start.

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You can't really build a building on an empty

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basement. Absolutely. And it's funny with your

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father. I mean, it's the two very pertinent careers

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that your parents did. I recently encountered

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an issue where my little boy was subject to what

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we call Baker Act here, which is when they send

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them for a... three -day hold in a psychiatric

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ward right and that's being abused terribly in

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the schools at the moment they're using you know

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any any child that's even remotely challenging

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um they just shoot off to there so i wonder what

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his observations have been of the you know the

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the progress or regression of psych ward use

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in the last 10 20 years yeah i mean certainly

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i think he's uh my dad is one of the most brilliant

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people i've ever met and uh I'm certainly as

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well. My dad never talks unless he has a well

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thought out argument or he'll just stay quiet.

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So I'm sure whatever whatever his opinion is,

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has been well thought out and researched because

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that's just the kind of guy he is. But yeah,

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he in in the 80s, especially a lot of the mental

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institutions were were pretty nightmarish. And

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so he did a lot in tandem with his team and other

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people, obviously. But he did a lot of work to

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kind of get that straightened out. So I'm super

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proud. be a son you know he's he's an amazing

00:09:10.690 --> 00:09:13.309
guy yeah they sound like amazing people all right

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well then so obviously you are coaching the world's

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elite when it comes to mma when you were young

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what were the sports you kind of connected with

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you know i didn't i wanted to do martial arts

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ever since i can remember and that's pretty much

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all i cared about like i did soccer and stuff

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as a kid. Um, and you know, you play kind of

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street football and that kind of stuff, but I

00:09:35.789 --> 00:09:38.529
was never captured by sports really. And it was

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just, um, it paled in conspiracy in comparison

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to my love of martial arts. So everything about

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my young life, I cannot remember a time where

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I was not doing some kind of martial arts since,

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um, it was, it was very, very early on, um, that,

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that I had that relationship with it. So, uh,

00:09:58.230 --> 00:10:01.899
it's, uh, it's been kind of, that's been my focus.

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I get, I have, I don't know if it's hyper -focus

00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:07.179
or, yeah, it's the only thing that can keep my

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attention. I'm not sure which end of the spectrum

00:10:09.179 --> 00:10:12.200
that's on, but that certainly is the case. Now,

00:10:12.340 --> 00:10:15.779
I personally, I mean, I got enamored with martial

00:10:15.779 --> 00:10:18.820
arts very young. I'm a very, very small, skinny

00:10:18.820 --> 00:10:21.720
child when I was younger. And, you know, I think

00:10:21.720 --> 00:10:24.279
that intrinsic urge to protect yourself when

00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:28.009
you feel kind of vulnerable. But I kind of, Excuse

00:10:28.009 --> 00:10:29.769
my language. I basically fumble fuck my way through

00:10:29.769 --> 00:10:33.549
a bunch of martial arts. Started with, I think

00:10:33.549 --> 00:10:36.190
it was WTF Taekwondo, then Shotokan for a while,

00:10:36.309 --> 00:10:41.769
then ITF, and then boxing, Muay Thai, then jujitsu,

00:10:41.789 --> 00:10:44.909
each of which, A, humbling me, and B, showing

00:10:44.909 --> 00:10:46.610
me the strengths and weaknesses of the one before,

00:10:46.990 --> 00:10:49.149
usually by getting my ass kicked by whichever

00:10:49.149 --> 00:10:53.710
the next style was. So lead me through the styles

00:10:53.710 --> 00:10:55.950
that you kind of, the path that you took within

00:10:55.950 --> 00:10:59.659
the martial arts. Well, I mean, that's a tricky

00:10:59.659 --> 00:11:03.960
path. So growing up, my motivation was because

00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:11.700
where I was raised was a very it's a very economically

00:11:11.700 --> 00:11:15.360
challenged place in the United States. We're

00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:18.379
one of the worst, unfortunately. So and I grew

00:11:18.379 --> 00:11:21.940
up kind of in the poorest part of. Albuquerque

00:11:21.940 --> 00:11:23.840
-ish. It's kind of outside of Albuquerque. It's

00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:26.440
called the South Valley. And very Hispanic. I

00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:28.419
was one of the few white kids there. So they

00:11:28.419 --> 00:11:32.360
had this very Hispanic machismo in that time,

00:11:32.500 --> 00:11:35.840
in that culture. And so basically they didn't

00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:37.759
really care about if you were good at any sports

00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:40.440
or if you could do well in school. All they cared

00:11:40.440 --> 00:11:42.759
about is if you could fight. So I had to figure

00:11:42.759 --> 00:11:46.179
out how to do that pretty quickly. Um, and so,

00:11:46.179 --> 00:11:48.960
uh, that was my, my motivation. So I never saw

00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:50.980
a Bruce Lee movie or never really, you know what

00:11:50.980 --> 00:11:53.379
I mean? Like it was, uh, my motivation was very,

00:11:53.419 --> 00:11:56.299
uh, practical needs. So that being said, the

00:11:56.299 --> 00:11:58.919
styles that I bounced around in it, pretty much

00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:01.320
any and everything you could do, any, anything

00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:03.399
that somebody could teach me, I would go and

00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:08.340
learn. Um, and so from every weapon you can imagine,

00:12:08.500 --> 00:12:12.480
I've taken some kind of course in it. Um, uh,

00:12:12.620 --> 00:12:16.000
but never, it would always have to go to an immediate

00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:18.919
need for me. So, um, I never progressed very

00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:22.779
far in anything just because, uh, I eventually

00:12:22.779 --> 00:12:24.299
would end up wrestling around. I come from a

00:12:24.299 --> 00:12:26.919
family of wrestlers and, uh, basically doing

00:12:26.919 --> 00:12:29.899
a very early version of mixed martial arts, um,

00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:32.620
with like boxing and kickboxing mixed in just,

00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:36.659
and again, just need based. Um, so that for me,

00:12:36.679 --> 00:12:39.179
it was all of, uh, I only wanted to be kind of

00:12:39.179 --> 00:12:40.840
a reality martial artist. Like I didn't care

00:12:40.840 --> 00:12:44.769
about competition to me. It was just about, protecting

00:12:44.769 --> 00:12:47.370
yourself. It was usually involving more than

00:12:47.370 --> 00:12:49.830
one person, all of these things. So then when

00:12:49.830 --> 00:12:52.710
the Ultimate Fighting Championship came out and

00:12:52.710 --> 00:12:55.070
I could see the Gracie family who were like PhDs,

00:12:55.070 --> 00:12:56.590
right? Like I'm in kindergarten and these guys

00:12:56.590 --> 00:13:00.389
are like amazing. They still are. you got to

00:13:00.389 --> 00:13:02.309
see, oh, wow, that's really cool. So then I had

00:13:02.309 --> 00:13:05.169
opened a school up by this time because my friends

00:13:05.169 --> 00:13:08.169
were training with me and we were fighting and

00:13:08.169 --> 00:13:10.409
they kind of wanted to know how I was doing the

00:13:10.409 --> 00:13:12.169
things I was doing when I was getting in fights.

00:13:12.629 --> 00:13:17.129
So I opened my school up very early. Um, that

00:13:17.129 --> 00:13:19.309
came around and then they wanted to do the, the

00:13:19.309 --> 00:13:21.350
bare knuckle competitions. And I didn't really

00:13:21.350 --> 00:13:23.470
think, you know, I was just a stupid kid. I was

00:13:23.470 --> 00:13:25.970
so young. Um, but I was like, ah, it's not realistic.

00:13:26.110 --> 00:13:27.370
You know, it's not one -on -one. I didn't really

00:13:27.370 --> 00:13:30.289
have any interest in that competitive, uh, market,

00:13:30.409 --> 00:13:32.629
but they talked me into it cause I can't say

00:13:32.629 --> 00:13:35.029
no to my friends. And so, uh, I still can't say

00:13:35.029 --> 00:13:38.009
no to my friends. And so, uh, uh, they, we went

00:13:38.009 --> 00:13:39.830
and we did some competitions and they started,

00:13:39.909 --> 00:13:42.190
uh, I thought we'd do okay, whatever. I wasn't,

00:13:42.190 --> 00:13:44.850
you know, it was, it was what it was. But we

00:13:44.850 --> 00:13:46.389
actually won everything. And so then they were

00:13:46.389 --> 00:13:50.450
addicted. And then 25, seven years later, whatever

00:13:50.450 --> 00:13:53.289
it's been, here I am talking to you. So my path

00:13:53.289 --> 00:13:56.350
into MMA was completely like I didn't want it.

00:13:56.370 --> 00:13:57.970
I didn't want to be a martial arts coach. I just

00:13:57.970 --> 00:13:59.129
wanted to be a teacher and I would have been

00:13:59.129 --> 00:14:02.250
as happy as a clam. But I got talked into it.

00:14:03.179 --> 00:14:04.919
So you touched on the fact that you had a gym.

00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:07.019
You were 17, is that right, when you had your

00:14:07.019 --> 00:14:10.080
gym? Yeah, I opened at 17. So tell me about that

00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:11.700
because that's a unique thing in yourself, especially

00:14:11.700 --> 00:14:13.700
in America where you're not graduating until

00:14:13.700 --> 00:14:16.179
18 normally. What was the road to you having

00:14:16.179 --> 00:14:20.080
your own gym? I graduated right around – it might

00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:22.600
have been right before I graduated. It actually

00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:28.399
was because I was teaching out of another school.

00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:32.220
So there was a guy named – Frank Trujillo and

00:14:32.220 --> 00:14:34.779
he had like a kickboxing school and he let me

00:14:34.779 --> 00:14:36.220
teach my students. There's a sweetheart of a

00:14:36.220 --> 00:14:39.000
guy. Uh, and he let me teach my, uh, in the South

00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:40.899
Valley there, start teaching students there.

00:14:40.919 --> 00:14:42.500
So that's where I really opened up. My first

00:14:42.500 --> 00:14:45.120
school was shared space in a school with somebody

00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:48.179
else. Um, and yeah, it was just a ballsy move.

00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:50.159
Um, I don't know what I was thinking. I had no

00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:52.539
idea what I was doing business wise. I had no

00:14:52.539 --> 00:14:55.779
idea. I mean, my parents were. basically civil

00:14:55.779 --> 00:14:57.340
servants you know i mean they wouldn't they didn't

00:14:57.340 --> 00:15:00.120
know anything about business or or uh you know

00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:02.840
the the pitfalls of all of that stuff um they

00:15:02.840 --> 00:15:04.960
had dedicated their lives to helping people and

00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:07.080
i i kind of took a little bit more of a self

00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:09.379
-centered well i'm just gonna start a business

00:15:09.379 --> 00:15:12.860
and you know do martial arts uh and so i had

00:15:12.860 --> 00:15:14.399
no idea what i was doing made terrible mistakes

00:15:14.399 --> 00:15:16.879
obviously if you're a 17 18 year old kid you're

00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:19.600
gonna make terrible mistakes anyway but um so

00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:24.950
uh that that process was I would work other jobs

00:15:24.950 --> 00:15:27.730
so I was like a you know back when we had the

00:15:27.730 --> 00:15:29.970
video stores where you could go and rent VHS

00:15:29.970 --> 00:15:32.850
tapes I managed a video store I was a security

00:15:32.850 --> 00:15:36.850
guard I did construction whatever job I could

00:15:36.850 --> 00:15:39.269
get to kind of pay the bills while I was trying

00:15:39.269 --> 00:15:42.870
to build up my my my business clientele so to

00:15:42.870 --> 00:15:46.750
speak and and luckily people started coming and

00:15:46.750 --> 00:15:48.990
so I was able to build it up kind of a little

00:15:48.990 --> 00:15:53.500
bit more year after year. It was probably a year

00:15:53.500 --> 00:15:55.659
or two there. And then we went to a, uh, basically

00:15:55.659 --> 00:15:58.960
somebody rented me their garage. So then, but

00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:00.820
it was a nice big garage. So then we went there

00:16:00.820 --> 00:16:04.480
and then finally in probably 90, another year

00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:07.659
there. So probably 94. Maybe beginning in 95,

00:16:07.779 --> 00:16:10.500
I forget, right around there. I had my first,

00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:13.980
my own gym. It was 1 ,200 square feet, 1 ,000

00:16:13.980 --> 00:16:15.240
square feet, something like that. And I lived

00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:17.179
in about half of it, maybe 300 or 400 square

00:16:17.179 --> 00:16:20.019
feet I lived in. I forget exactly. And yeah,

00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:22.620
that's where it really started kicking off. Brilliant.

00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:26.159
Now, the other thing is you talked about training

00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:29.000
your friends and winning. What was it about the

00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:31.019
way you were coaching them and obviously the

00:16:31.019 --> 00:16:33.620
way you're coaching yourself as well that was

00:16:33.620 --> 00:16:35.500
defeating these opponents in these early bare

00:16:35.500 --> 00:16:40.580
-knuckle fights? I think what we did, we did

00:16:40.580 --> 00:16:44.620
a kind of a combination of the the grappling

00:16:44.620 --> 00:16:46.820
competitions at those times. And then the like,

00:16:46.820 --> 00:16:49.200
it was different rules no matter where you went.

00:16:49.259 --> 00:16:51.440
So sometimes it was open palm. Sometimes it was

00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:53.320
closed fist. It just depended on where you were.

00:16:54.059 --> 00:16:56.019
I'd be hard pressed to remember where was what.

00:16:56.240 --> 00:17:01.740
But the I think that we had we were New Mexico's

00:17:01.740 --> 00:17:05.220
a fighting town. We have a long boxing tradition

00:17:05.220 --> 00:17:07.240
here. We have a long kickboxing tradition here.

00:17:07.779 --> 00:17:11.500
It is a fighting town. So we came in there with

00:17:11.500 --> 00:17:15.640
some toughness, especially in those early days.

00:17:16.180 --> 00:17:20.720
If you had a couple of good techniques and you

00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:23.000
were pretty tough, you didn't get tired, you

00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:25.380
had a good chance of winning. And that, of course,

00:17:25.380 --> 00:17:27.359
got more and more complicated as people got more

00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:30.680
and more educated. I was able to figure out some

00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:33.700
good techniques early on and we used them well.

00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:35.900
And then the competition would actually teach

00:17:35.900 --> 00:17:37.759
us. So we'd go to these competitions and other

00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:39.440
people would try these techniques against us.

00:17:39.500 --> 00:17:41.000
And I'd be like, oh, I better come up with a

00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:43.240
counter for that. And then that tree would lead

00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:45.420
to other branches where I'd say, well, we can

00:17:45.420 --> 00:17:47.299
attack here and do this. And so that was kind

00:17:47.299 --> 00:17:49.180
of the process. Because when it comes to MMA

00:17:49.180 --> 00:17:51.259
stuff, I'm all self -taught. I never had a jiu

00:17:51.259 --> 00:17:54.579
-jitsu instructor per se. Brazilian jiu -jitsu

00:17:54.579 --> 00:17:56.339
is the one art that I never really took lessons

00:17:56.339 --> 00:17:59.500
in other than the coaches. stuff helping me out

00:17:59.500 --> 00:18:01.920
and showing me moves that we have uh you know

00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:04.819
in around and you would go and watch the moves

00:18:04.819 --> 00:18:07.119
in competition but i never i don't have any jiu

00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:10.299
-jitsu belt at all oh really yeah and there's

00:18:10.299 --> 00:18:12.079
probably pros and cons to that isn't there because

00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:14.759
i mean if you see it every so often in the ufc

00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:19.049
for example you you'll have karate guy or a judo

00:18:19.049 --> 00:18:22.029
woman come in and just start smashing people

00:18:22.029 --> 00:18:24.190
around. It's because everyone's been so focused

00:18:24.190 --> 00:18:26.410
on that one path that someone comes from the

00:18:26.410 --> 00:18:28.839
outside and they bring something new to it. Well,

00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:31.680
I think you're right, but a little more of a

00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:33.619
microcosm there. We would go to the grappling

00:18:33.619 --> 00:18:35.700
tournaments and actually win the grappling tournaments

00:18:35.700 --> 00:18:38.880
against the Brazilian jiu -jitsu practitioners,

00:18:39.019 --> 00:18:40.779
which used to drive – I mean some of them were

00:18:40.779 --> 00:18:42.319
really cool, but it used to drive a bunch of

00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:44.500
them crazy, crazy. And that's actually where

00:18:44.500 --> 00:18:46.359
we made almost more of a name for ourselves.

00:18:46.500 --> 00:18:48.700
Like where I met the tap -out people that did

00:18:48.700 --> 00:18:50.839
a clothing company that was called Tap Out that

00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:54.200
was very influential in my early career. We met

00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:55.940
all those guys because we would show up to these

00:18:55.940 --> 00:18:59.980
tournaments. I think we still might. I don't

00:18:59.980 --> 00:19:01.299
know if somebody's probably somebody's passed

00:19:01.299 --> 00:19:02.960
it now. I don't pay attention, but we still might

00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:04.740
have like the grapplers quest. We might still

00:19:04.740 --> 00:19:08.359
be the we might have had the most wins in that

00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:11.319
as a team. I got inducted into their Hall of

00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:13.980
Fame stuff. So the tournaments that we used to

00:19:13.980 --> 00:19:16.359
do grappling, we would come in with a little

00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:18.980
bit different, a little bit different ways of

00:19:18.980 --> 00:19:20.940
doing the same maneuvers. And since everybody

00:19:20.940 --> 00:19:22.579
else was kind of drinking from the same water,

00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:25.339
I think that gave us an edge for a while. Right.

00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:28.859
So then was there like a, not a moment or a person,

00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:33.819
but like a year or some sort of peak where you

00:19:33.819 --> 00:19:38.160
kind of transitioned from the learning the coach,

00:19:38.180 --> 00:19:40.079
the doing the smaller tournaments to suddenly

00:19:40.079 --> 00:19:42.420
realizing, oh my goodness, now I'm coaching people

00:19:42.420 --> 00:19:44.779
that are actually winning in the UFC or Pride

00:19:44.779 --> 00:19:48.420
or whatever the pinnacle was at the time. No,

00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:51.220
I don't think because we did that. We did the

00:19:51.220 --> 00:19:52.900
bare knuckle stuff. We won a lot of that. And

00:19:52.900 --> 00:19:54.980
then we won like the smaller organizations like

00:19:54.980 --> 00:19:56.779
the King of the Cage. We took all their world

00:19:56.779 --> 00:20:00.339
titles. And then Diego Sanchez won the reality

00:20:00.339 --> 00:20:03.640
TV show, the Ultimate Fighter one. He was the

00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:06.220
first winner of that. And then we've had – I

00:20:06.220 --> 00:20:07.579
don't know how many we've had wins since then,

00:20:07.619 --> 00:20:11.079
but it's a lot. And it was right around then

00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:13.920
that everything changed. So it wasn't so much

00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:17.680
me going, okay, now I've got – These high -level

00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:22.019
fighters. I was just a cocky kid. I think that

00:20:22.019 --> 00:20:25.180
MMA changed. The ultimate fighter, that television

00:20:25.180 --> 00:20:29.500
show, for me, it's like BC and AD, like before

00:20:29.500 --> 00:20:33.680
and after. That's how different MMA became. It

00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:35.799
was immediately mainstream. Immediately when

00:20:35.799 --> 00:20:40.059
I said, oh, we do mixed martial arts, some people

00:20:40.059 --> 00:20:41.839
would know what I was talking about because before

00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:43.759
that show, no one knew anything. Or they saw

00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:46.400
it vaguely. You know, that's cage fighting. Yeah,

00:20:46.440 --> 00:20:48.259
that's pretty crazy. But it started actually

00:20:48.259 --> 00:20:51.480
getting traction after I think that was 2005,

00:20:51.819 --> 00:20:54.380
2004, somewhere around there. But that's when

00:20:54.380 --> 00:20:56.799
I noticed that all of a sudden, like I was making

00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:59.519
more money. But really, I would have been happy

00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:02.180
in my little place making the money I was making

00:21:02.180 --> 00:21:03.839
just because I could, you know, you get to do

00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:05.220
your art, you get to do what you love all day.

00:21:05.259 --> 00:21:06.599
It's so fun. You get to hang out with your friends.

00:21:07.180 --> 00:21:09.920
But that's when things really started to change

00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:12.420
in the MMA world for me anyway. Yeah. Well, I

00:21:12.420 --> 00:21:14.220
heard you in one of the interviews talking about.

00:21:14.599 --> 00:21:17.380
um you know the audience craving entertainment

00:21:17.380 --> 00:21:22.339
craving that rocky you know robot style and it's

00:21:22.339 --> 00:21:24.259
interesting because the griffin bonner fight

00:21:24.259 --> 00:21:27.880
in that same um series was was basically the

00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:29.559
pinnacle and i think if that had been a technical

00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:32.680
jujitsu finish it wouldn't have had the impact

00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:34.359
but basically because they almost beat themselves

00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:36.839
to death sadly that was what it took to make

00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:39.180
them yeah we'll always owe those guys for sure

00:21:39.180 --> 00:21:42.190
that it hooked them hard yes Right. Well, then

00:21:42.190 --> 00:21:45.390
again, speaking of an interview I heard, for

00:21:45.390 --> 00:21:49.730
me personally, as a smaller, frail kid, even

00:21:49.730 --> 00:21:51.210
though ironically I grew up on a farm, so I probably

00:21:51.210 --> 00:21:53.430
wasn't as weak and feeble as I actually thought

00:21:53.430 --> 00:21:58.450
I was. Probably not. The martial arts were absolutely

00:21:58.450 --> 00:22:02.349
an integral part of the path that I began and

00:22:02.349 --> 00:22:05.289
definitely took me to become a fireman and some

00:22:05.289 --> 00:22:08.440
other areas. And I heard you talking about martial

00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:11.839
arts versus fighting. Now, much later on in this

00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:14.200
world that I'm in now with first responders and

00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:16.220
PTSD and the mental health that I delve into,

00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:20.559
I totally understand what you're talking about

00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:25.920
because fighting alone to me seems like there's

00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:27.640
an element of almost fighting demons. That's

00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:30.400
a symptom or a side effect of some trauma inside

00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:34.259
the head. Whereas I found and I see the martial

00:22:34.259 --> 00:22:38.069
arts specifically. being the antidote for that,

00:22:38.109 --> 00:22:40.890
the cure because of the discipline and the respect

00:22:40.890 --> 00:22:44.670
and the humility, that is a great way to overcome

00:22:44.670 --> 00:22:47.450
that. What do you witness with your fighters,

00:22:47.450 --> 00:22:50.650
the martial artists versus the brawler, as it

00:22:50.650 --> 00:22:54.190
were? Uh, usually the martial artists are much

00:22:54.190 --> 00:22:57.509
happier overall people. Um, fighters are a lot

00:22:57.509 --> 00:22:59.529
more peaks and valleys, right? Everything's great.

00:22:59.630 --> 00:23:01.269
Everything's terrible. Everything's great. Everything's

00:23:01.269 --> 00:23:03.750
terrible. And the martial artists seem to be,

00:23:03.750 --> 00:23:07.789
uh, a lot more even keel, um, and a lot happier,

00:23:07.890 --> 00:23:11.130
especially later on in life. Um, so I'm a big

00:23:11.130 --> 00:23:14.250
advocate of, and, but again, I'm not any, I'm

00:23:14.250 --> 00:23:16.670
everybody that comes to my school are basically

00:23:16.670 --> 00:23:19.049
grownups. I mean, you know, who's a grownup really?

00:23:19.150 --> 00:23:22.769
Right. But, uh, the, So I don't force it on them

00:23:22.769 --> 00:23:24.630
any more than I would force anything else on

00:23:24.630 --> 00:23:26.529
them. If they just want to do the sport and they

00:23:26.529 --> 00:23:29.190
can handle their own stuff and that's how they

00:23:29.190 --> 00:23:31.589
want to live it, then that's fine. But I always

00:23:31.589 --> 00:23:33.710
encourage that martial arts side of it if I can

00:23:33.710 --> 00:23:36.549
just because of the – I think the benefits of

00:23:36.549 --> 00:23:39.730
following a martial path rather than a sporting

00:23:39.730 --> 00:23:42.990
path is much more fun for me. But that's just

00:23:42.990 --> 00:23:44.410
me. That doesn't necessarily mean that other

00:23:44.410 --> 00:23:47.269
people agree with that. So I think that the martial

00:23:47.269 --> 00:23:50.400
arts is a very healthy – way to move through

00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:52.359
life again because of those qualities that it

00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:55.720
gives you um especially if you've got uh snakes

00:23:55.720 --> 00:23:57.920
in your brain like a lot of us do and and it

00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:00.099
gives us the ability to help try to control that

00:24:00.099 --> 00:24:04.799
um so uh whereas fighting i feel like you you

00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:06.940
can control it only because you're hyper focused

00:24:06.940 --> 00:24:09.619
for a period of time and then you kind of like

00:24:09.619 --> 00:24:12.180
you just kind of float around a little bit until

00:24:12.180 --> 00:24:15.599
you can hyper focus again so um i i think it'd

00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:18.410
be And I don't know how apt this analogy is,

00:24:18.490 --> 00:24:21.029
but it's almost like having a good diet all the

00:24:21.029 --> 00:24:23.230
time versus yo -yo eating, right, where you get

00:24:23.230 --> 00:24:25.049
huge and fat and then you lose all the weight

00:24:25.049 --> 00:24:26.390
and then you get huge and fat and you lose all

00:24:26.390 --> 00:24:29.910
– it's just not that healthy for you. But again,

00:24:30.009 --> 00:24:32.470
I'm a big believer in kind of your – you are

00:24:32.470 --> 00:24:36.670
a grown -up human being and you'll have to make

00:24:36.670 --> 00:24:38.670
your own choices there. Here's what I think,

00:24:38.710 --> 00:24:42.509
but I'm not going to – I don't own anybody. I'm

00:24:42.509 --> 00:24:46.040
not anybody's master. I don't like that. The

00:24:46.040 --> 00:24:48.359
connotations of that, I don't want to fight for

00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:53.720
mastery over anybody. So other than it's an actual

00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:55.759
physical confrontation, which is very different

00:24:55.759 --> 00:24:57.819
to me than, you know, hanging out with people.

00:24:58.619 --> 00:25:02.400
So those two things are very separate for me.

00:25:02.460 --> 00:25:04.400
And so if they want to choose the martial arts

00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:06.200
path, then we've got a lot of fighters that do

00:25:06.200 --> 00:25:07.819
that. And some of them are just, hey, it's the

00:25:07.819 --> 00:25:10.799
sports, my job. I love it, but I don't need the

00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:13.150
rest of it. Right. Now, do you, are there any,

00:25:13.190 --> 00:25:14.710
it doesn't have to even name the names, but are

00:25:14.710 --> 00:25:18.470
there any stories you have of a broken man or

00:25:18.470 --> 00:25:20.410
woman first entering, whether it's addiction,

00:25:20.549 --> 00:25:24.170
you know, just mental trauma that through the

00:25:24.170 --> 00:25:27.769
martial route, through your gym, that they ended

00:25:27.769 --> 00:25:30.630
up overcoming adversity in that way? Yeah, I

00:25:30.630 --> 00:25:32.490
think there's a lot of stories like that. I'm

00:25:32.490 --> 00:25:34.569
trying to think of one specifically. But certainly

00:25:34.569 --> 00:25:38.069
you get that a lot wherein – so I have a saying

00:25:38.069 --> 00:25:40.369
that the martial arts attracts the crazies. It's

00:25:40.369 --> 00:25:43.069
kind of like psychologists. You very rarely meet

00:25:43.069 --> 00:25:45.829
normal psychologists. Sorry, psychologists. It's

00:25:45.829 --> 00:25:49.769
true. Because they're – what was their impetus

00:25:49.769 --> 00:25:52.779
to get into psychology is usually – Wanting to

00:25:52.779 --> 00:25:54.299
understand either something about themselves

00:25:54.299 --> 00:25:57.500
or the mind. So you have a kind of an interesting

00:25:57.500 --> 00:26:00.440
perspective to start into that line of work to

00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:02.279
begin with. And I think fighters are very similar

00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:06.259
to that. I think that some of them just want

00:26:06.259 --> 00:26:11.019
to get mastery over what they fear or their emotions

00:26:11.019 --> 00:26:13.440
being crazy. They want some sort of semblance

00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:16.799
of control over. Uh, and again, it can be led

00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:19.220
by fear. It can be led by the feeling of helplessness.

00:26:19.240 --> 00:26:21.779
It can be led by many things, but, um, yeah,

00:26:21.880 --> 00:26:24.240
I think that the martial arts has the power and

00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:27.380
I over and over, you see that again on the martial

00:26:27.380 --> 00:26:29.359
arts side, which is why I love it so much. The

00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:33.880
power of the martial arts to heal. Um, it, you

00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:35.559
won't, that doesn't necessarily mean that you're

00:26:35.559 --> 00:26:37.299
going to be a great fighter, but then the martial

00:26:37.299 --> 00:26:40.940
arts. If you're a martial artist, the fighting

00:26:40.940 --> 00:26:43.160
should be the least important part. That doesn't

00:26:43.160 --> 00:26:45.339
mean it's not important. You can't just throw

00:26:45.339 --> 00:26:47.039
punches in the air and call yourself a martial

00:26:47.039 --> 00:26:50.000
artist. It is a martial path. But the rest of

00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:52.680
it, you're only going to be fighting unless you've

00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:55.440
really made some terrible life choices. If you're

00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:57.220
not competing, you're going to be fighting for

00:26:57.220 --> 00:27:00.359
probably less than five minutes unless you've

00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:03.539
really gotten into a situation. So the rest of

00:27:03.539 --> 00:27:06.599
all of that time should be... on the practice

00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:08.619
and the practice itself should be giving you

00:27:08.619 --> 00:27:14.559
all of these tools and disciplines, ideas, if

00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:17.259
you will, that will hopefully improve your personality

00:27:17.259 --> 00:27:19.599
a little bit. Not like a self -help book where

00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:22.519
you're looking outward, but. inside where it's,

00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:24.660
you're kind of having to push it yourself. Um,

00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:27.559
so I think that there's many, many stories of

00:27:27.559 --> 00:27:30.000
people that come into the martial arts world

00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:31.680
and it doesn't have to be MMA. It can be any

00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:34.640
martial art. Um, but because of the discipline,

00:27:34.779 --> 00:27:37.140
because of the, the other things that are required

00:27:37.140 --> 00:27:40.470
in to be a great martial artist. It can give

00:27:40.470 --> 00:27:43.190
back to you in that way where you can kind of

00:27:43.190 --> 00:27:48.190
master fear or trauma or especially the big one

00:27:48.190 --> 00:27:50.849
I see is fear. That's the one that usually I

00:27:50.849 --> 00:27:54.890
see push most people into it. Yeah. Now, you

00:27:54.890 --> 00:27:56.869
touched on a point that's something I've talked

00:27:56.869 --> 00:28:00.029
about a little bit is the kind of the journey

00:28:00.029 --> 00:28:04.109
versus the destination philosophy. For example,

00:28:04.109 --> 00:28:06.029
let's take podcasting. So say I want to hit X

00:28:06.029 --> 00:28:09.130
amount of downloads. I've got to benchmarks where

00:28:09.130 --> 00:28:10.690
I've wanted to get. And obviously, for me, it's

00:28:10.690 --> 00:28:12.990
not an ego thing. It's every single person that

00:28:12.990 --> 00:28:16.089
hits play. Here's someone who has value, who's

00:28:16.089 --> 00:28:17.470
actually going to enrich their life. So it's

00:28:17.470 --> 00:28:20.349
a really positive metric to follow. But each

00:28:20.349 --> 00:28:22.829
time I get there, it's like, oh, OK, well, then

00:28:22.829 --> 00:28:24.450
we'll go to the next one now. And it's the same

00:28:24.450 --> 00:28:27.970
with belts. When I had belt systems in arts that

00:28:27.970 --> 00:28:31.660
I've done. How do you kind of steer your fighters

00:28:31.660 --> 00:28:34.359
to kind of get the eyes off the prize and focus

00:28:34.359 --> 00:28:38.539
more on becoming a little better every day? Well,

00:28:38.579 --> 00:28:41.960
that actually helps out in that that is on the

00:28:41.960 --> 00:28:43.740
martial side. So I always tell them just let

00:28:43.740 --> 00:28:45.259
go of the winning. Obviously, you want to win

00:28:45.259 --> 00:28:46.980
and you have to have the pride of winning. And

00:28:46.980 --> 00:28:50.039
the desire, the will to win is a huge important

00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:53.579
aspect of both the martial arts and the fighting

00:28:53.579 --> 00:28:58.940
element of it. Every fighter that we have has

00:28:58.940 --> 00:29:01.779
a concurrent personal growth plan where I kind

00:29:01.779 --> 00:29:03.839
of put together a little map for them. It says

00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:05.539
here's what you need to – okay, you're wrestling

00:29:05.539 --> 00:29:07.359
in a macro level. Your wrestling is terrible.

00:29:07.500 --> 00:29:10.099
You need to work on this or you need to do a

00:29:10.099 --> 00:29:12.420
jab or whatever it may be where you have a hole

00:29:12.420 --> 00:29:16.339
in your technique and you have a game plan specific.

00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:18.839
Okay, now we're in a fight camp and for this

00:29:18.839 --> 00:29:21.359
next six weeks, you have to do these things to

00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:23.640
get them into trouble and do these things to

00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:25.240
stay out of trouble yourself, whatever it may

00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:29.240
be. So in that end of it, it's on their personal

00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:33.500
growth plan where technically and mentally they

00:29:33.500 --> 00:29:35.420
are pushed. So in other words, if you get really

00:29:35.420 --> 00:29:37.299
tired in the second round, then we're going to

00:29:37.299 --> 00:29:39.799
do stuff to push you so that you get used to

00:29:39.799 --> 00:29:41.400
that feeling of fatigue. You kind of embrace

00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:44.920
it and you look forward to it. So that's one

00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:46.519
of the things that you do on your personal growth

00:29:46.519 --> 00:29:49.059
plan. You wouldn't necessarily do that on a game

00:29:49.059 --> 00:29:50.920
plan specific thing because it's going to be

00:29:50.920 --> 00:29:54.440
something that's almost exclusively done out

00:29:54.440 --> 00:29:57.640
of camp. you can kind of acquire this mental

00:29:57.640 --> 00:30:00.960
toughness or a higher level of mental toughness.

00:30:01.220 --> 00:30:03.400
And the same thing with technique. So to answer

00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:05.440
your question, we have kind of a personal growth

00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:08.160
plan that everybody goes through. They're not

00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:09.940
personality based, right? Because who am I to

00:30:09.940 --> 00:30:11.859
judge somebody and say, well, you need to be

00:30:11.859 --> 00:30:14.519
better at, you know, hugging your mom every day

00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:16.880
or whatever. It's like that's being that human

00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:19.880
being side that when you're a grown up, that's

00:30:19.880 --> 00:30:23.019
on you. Our side is to try to get you on the

00:30:23.019 --> 00:30:26.339
fighting side to try to get you to be the best

00:30:26.339 --> 00:30:30.259
you can be as a competitor in the sport. Right.

00:30:30.539 --> 00:30:33.339
Now, obviously, there's so many disciplines now

00:30:33.339 --> 00:30:36.279
within MMA, and there's only so many hours in

00:30:36.279 --> 00:30:38.200
a day, especially if that's not someone's full

00:30:38.200 --> 00:30:43.319
-time path, as it were. How do you allocate time

00:30:43.319 --> 00:30:46.859
wrestling, time doing jiu -jitsu, time doing

00:30:46.859 --> 00:30:49.119
Muay Thai to try and get that perfect balance

00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:51.839
without overtraining? Right. Well, that's why

00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:54.660
we have a lot of great coaches that are much

00:30:54.660 --> 00:30:57.259
better coaches than I am. And they're all specialists

00:30:57.259 --> 00:31:00.539
kind of in those fields. But yeah, a lot of that's

00:31:00.539 --> 00:31:02.839
really tricky and you have to do it's very individualized.

00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:05.240
You have to see where they need the work. So

00:31:05.240 --> 00:31:08.400
then you can allocate what time you need to do,

00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:10.940
how much you need to do in these areas, because

00:31:10.940 --> 00:31:12.740
those are the work. That's the work that you

00:31:12.740 --> 00:31:17.539
need. But. it's a tricky, that's a tricky tight

00:31:17.539 --> 00:31:19.539
rope, right? And that's half of, especially on

00:31:19.539 --> 00:31:21.059
the personal growth side, that's half of it.

00:31:21.059 --> 00:31:22.339
It's just, okay, you're going to go to these

00:31:22.339 --> 00:31:23.920
many group classes and you're going to have these

00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:27.519
many private lessons with these coaches. That's,

00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:30.200
it's, it's a constant tightrope act. You have

00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:32.680
to constantly adjust your balance. Yeah. Now,

00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:34.660
on the other side of the scale, something I talk

00:31:34.660 --> 00:31:37.259
about a lot with the first responders is rest

00:31:37.259 --> 00:31:39.559
and recovery. Because you get a lot, you know,

00:31:39.559 --> 00:31:42.400
the hard charges of our profession, they're doing

00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:45.200
these crazy shifts, 56 hours a week, not sleeping.

00:31:46.170 --> 00:31:48.049
go into their CrossFit gym and then go into jiu

00:31:48.049 --> 00:31:52.349
-jitsu. But the sleep deprivation side and understanding

00:31:52.349 --> 00:31:54.509
how detrimental that is is something I'm trying

00:31:54.509 --> 00:31:56.950
to bring education to them so they realize, again,

00:31:57.069 --> 00:31:59.130
you're not overtraining and you're working uphill.

00:31:59.390 --> 00:32:00.970
It's not like you get to go to bed every night.

00:32:01.049 --> 00:32:05.210
You're up two, three nights a week. So with your

00:32:05.210 --> 00:32:08.789
athletes as a coach over the last 20 years, what

00:32:08.789 --> 00:32:11.089
have you witnessed as far as the importance of

00:32:11.089 --> 00:32:13.930
sleep and rest days or active recovery days and

00:32:13.930 --> 00:32:17.759
performance? It's a real deal. And again, it's

00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:19.559
the same thing. The hard charges will come in.

00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:22.079
They'll try to work out four or five hours a

00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:24.640
day. They won't take days off. That's a big one.

00:32:24.740 --> 00:32:27.180
I have to force all of my guys out of the gym.

00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:29.480
I like 48 hours off, but most of them can't.

00:32:29.859 --> 00:32:33.380
They'll go nuts. So at least one day to a day

00:32:33.380 --> 00:32:36.890
and a half off. uh is a big deal in this in fighting

00:32:36.890 --> 00:32:38.569
camp and then after the fight i don't want to

00:32:38.569 --> 00:32:40.650
see you for a month or so like just it's such

00:32:40.650 --> 00:32:43.029
an intense process on the fighting side building

00:32:43.029 --> 00:32:45.329
it up going through camp your body is going to

00:32:45.329 --> 00:32:47.069
break down your mind's going to break down if

00:32:47.069 --> 00:32:48.710
you keep doing that over and over and over and

00:32:48.710 --> 00:32:51.329
over again so yeah it's not a sprint it's a marathon

00:32:51.329 --> 00:32:55.130
right so just so much of my is my job is personality

00:32:55.130 --> 00:32:58.390
management in that i say no you got to get out

00:32:58.390 --> 00:33:00.809
of here i don't want to see you go relax have

00:33:00.809 --> 00:33:02.789
fun watch a movie don't think about fighting

00:33:02.789 --> 00:33:05.500
don't think about anything Go play video games.

00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:09.480
Go, I don't know, for a walk by a stream somewhere,

00:33:09.579 --> 00:33:12.099
whatever it is. Get out of here. I don't want

00:33:12.099 --> 00:33:14.599
to see you. Because that, you know, and again,

00:33:14.660 --> 00:33:17.470
it's that. if you're always on the front lines

00:33:17.470 --> 00:33:19.430
of battle eventually it starts to take its toll

00:33:19.430 --> 00:33:21.410
on you and you can't keep that pace up forever

00:33:21.410 --> 00:33:23.849
you'll hit a breaking point where either mentally

00:33:23.849 --> 00:33:25.650
or physically you will break and then you're

00:33:25.650 --> 00:33:28.369
forced out like either you you're injured or

00:33:28.369 --> 00:33:31.529
you're just mentally so cooked that you uh you're

00:33:31.529 --> 00:33:33.930
not you're not doing anybody any services yeah

00:33:33.930 --> 00:33:36.369
which is exactly exactly what my community suffers

00:33:36.369 --> 00:33:40.809
from um so with um again with 20 years evolution

00:33:40.809 --> 00:33:43.619
watching the strength and conditioning will change.

00:33:44.839 --> 00:33:48.400
What kind of training principles have you found

00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:50.779
works well with your MMA as far as strength and

00:33:50.779 --> 00:33:54.099
conditioning? Well, again, that's individualized

00:33:54.099 --> 00:33:55.839
and it's personal growth. Some people need to

00:33:55.839 --> 00:33:57.519
be stronger. Some people need to work longer.

00:33:57.859 --> 00:34:00.299
It needs to be periodized for camps. That's for

00:34:00.299 --> 00:34:03.380
sure. train the way you get ready to train for

00:34:03.380 --> 00:34:06.160
a fight so for six to eight weeks out um is very

00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:09.219
different your your uh volume is less but your

00:34:09.219 --> 00:34:12.219
intensity gets higher um and then it's very athlete

00:34:12.219 --> 00:34:14.639
dependent that's what i've really learned is

00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:17.000
that there's no one magic formula that works

00:34:17.000 --> 00:34:19.719
for everybody just because people's personalities

00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:21.659
are so different and their bodies are so different

00:34:21.659 --> 00:34:23.539
what they can what some people can withstand

00:34:23.539 --> 00:34:27.460
other people can't so um you really have to do

00:34:27.460 --> 00:34:29.880
a personal it's it's old Sun Tzu, right? You

00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:31.880
have to know yourself and know your enemy. You

00:34:31.880 --> 00:34:35.059
really have to understand it's a super individualized

00:34:35.059 --> 00:34:38.360
thing. And that's why there's no one formula

00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:40.820
that like is on the internet that everybody does.

00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:42.980
And it works the same for everybody, right? Like

00:34:42.980 --> 00:34:44.659
your diet's going to be a little bit different.

00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:47.840
There's the same parameters, obviously, right?

00:34:47.940 --> 00:34:50.880
Like nobody's eating. Well, I shouldn't say nobody.

00:34:51.019 --> 00:34:54.159
Most people are not eating cheeseburgers three

00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:56.340
days or three meals a day and then getting ready

00:34:56.340 --> 00:34:57.820
to fight camp. But listen, I'm sure it's been

00:34:57.820 --> 00:35:00.300
done. We'll probably get like 18 dudes. That's

00:35:00.300 --> 00:35:03.539
what I do. If it works for you, that's great.

00:35:03.719 --> 00:35:06.639
But in the aggregate, most people, you eat clean.

00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:09.659
But if you're losing weight, some people lose

00:35:09.659 --> 00:35:12.059
it. quickly some people floated off sleeping

00:35:12.059 --> 00:35:14.659
some people don't it's such an individualized

00:35:14.659 --> 00:35:18.019
thing that a coach really is a decoder in that

00:35:18.019 --> 00:35:20.619
they have to be able to understand what the athlete

00:35:20.619 --> 00:35:23.920
needs and then set them up and for success in

00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:26.099
you know we're having a nutrition specialist

00:35:26.099 --> 00:35:29.599
that's very malleable or i'm sorry um what's

00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:32.659
the word uh flexible uh and says you know uh

00:35:32.659 --> 00:35:35.500
this person needs this this person needs that

00:35:35.500 --> 00:35:38.320
calories in calories out here's your all your

00:35:39.039 --> 00:35:41.800
stuff that's over my pay grade but that you having

00:35:41.800 --> 00:35:43.860
that ability to evaluate everybody individually

00:35:43.860 --> 00:35:46.639
is a big big deal yeah i think that's where you

00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:49.800
know we failed a lot with um She's just teaching

00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:53.239
strength and conditioning and nutrition. Everyone

00:35:53.239 --> 00:35:56.980
has their 12 DVD set on QVC that's going to be

00:35:56.980 --> 00:35:59.380
the magic pill. It's like, no, I'm not the same

00:35:59.380 --> 00:36:01.960
as an Inuit or an Australian Aboriginal. We're

00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:06.219
all very different in our DNA and makeup. A 300

00:36:06.219 --> 00:36:07.980
-pound linebacker is probably going to eat a

00:36:07.980 --> 00:36:10.059
little differently than a 90 -pound ballerina.

00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:14.699
100%. That last phrase is really it. You never

00:36:14.699 --> 00:36:18.019
know what your genes are going to give you. giant

00:36:18.019 --> 00:36:23.440
guys that come from i don't know scottish background

00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:25.260
and then they're small do you know what i mean

00:36:25.260 --> 00:36:27.199
like it's just such a it's such a random dice

00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:29.159
roll that you you just have to take what you're

00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:32.360
given and and uh work with it absolutely well

00:36:32.360 --> 00:36:33.780
i want to talk about one more thing you know

00:36:33.780 --> 00:36:35.980
within the mma gym and then transition to to

00:36:35.980 --> 00:36:40.559
the tactical space um about let me see when was

00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:46.659
it 2000 I moved to LA for about three years.

00:36:46.760 --> 00:36:50.719
And when I was there, Shootbox opened up a school.

00:36:51.119 --> 00:36:54.780
And I've never been to the real Fight Club from

00:36:54.780 --> 00:36:56.599
the movie, but I think it was pretty damn close

00:36:56.599 --> 00:36:59.840
with my experience. It was basically two hours

00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:01.539
of having the shit kicked out of me. I had my

00:37:01.539 --> 00:37:04.989
jaw broken, nose broken. You know, eardrum perforated.

00:37:05.329 --> 00:37:07.369
Got to spar with some cool people like Anthony

00:37:07.369 --> 00:37:09.010
Johnson, who used to kick the shit out of me

00:37:09.010 --> 00:37:12.190
too. I've been a great punch bag for some big

00:37:12.190 --> 00:37:14.969
names, but never fought, you know, specifically.

00:37:15.190 --> 00:37:18.969
But the point being, the detriment of such hard

00:37:18.969 --> 00:37:21.050
sparring all the time, I felt, you know, everything

00:37:21.050 --> 00:37:23.369
did hurt. I was foggy. I had headaches. I was,

00:37:23.369 --> 00:37:25.730
you know, all kinds of stuff. And then I hear

00:37:25.730 --> 00:37:28.610
people like Joe Rogan and some other people talking

00:37:28.610 --> 00:37:32.789
anecdotally about gyms starting to... to pull

00:37:32.789 --> 00:37:35.230
back from hard sparring all the time in preparation

00:37:35.230 --> 00:37:37.710
for fights. What's your philosophy as a coach

00:37:37.710 --> 00:37:41.710
on the level of contact during training versus

00:37:41.710 --> 00:37:45.010
an actual fight? Yeah, well, obviously fights

00:37:45.010 --> 00:37:47.989
are full on, but yeah, we've also pulled way,

00:37:48.030 --> 00:37:49.710
way back. We have one day a week where we go.

00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:52.860
pretty hard, but not like we used to. And again,

00:37:52.940 --> 00:37:55.179
that's just as you learn more about CTE and its

00:37:55.179 --> 00:37:58.059
effects. We were all ignorant in the 80s and

00:37:58.059 --> 00:38:02.780
early 90s as to what that even was. And I'll

00:38:02.780 --> 00:38:05.519
tell you, I was ignorant until the 2000s. Um,

00:38:05.659 --> 00:38:08.420
so yeah, we all did kind of that same methodology

00:38:08.420 --> 00:38:10.099
of just like, well, you're fighting to get ready

00:38:10.099 --> 00:38:12.679
to fight. That's what you do. Uh, obviously you

00:38:12.679 --> 00:38:14.159
wouldn't try to hurt each other because that

00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:15.780
would just make everybody injured and no one

00:38:15.780 --> 00:38:18.340
could fight, but we, you know, you're going at

00:38:18.340 --> 00:38:20.659
it pretty good. So yeah, we, we are at one of

00:38:20.659 --> 00:38:23.000
those that, uh, has pulled way back on heavy,

00:38:23.019 --> 00:38:29.710
heavy hitting. Um, It doesn't seem to make a

00:38:29.710 --> 00:38:32.170
large difference to us, but all the concussions

00:38:32.170 --> 00:38:35.090
that you get do make a large difference. So on

00:38:35.090 --> 00:38:38.469
the positive side, we seem to be faring pretty

00:38:38.469 --> 00:38:41.750
much the same. And on the negative side, hopefully

00:38:41.750 --> 00:38:44.170
we'll be able to have conversations when we're

00:38:44.170 --> 00:38:47.320
70. Yeah, well, exactly. Absolutely. All right.

00:38:47.320 --> 00:38:49.159
Well, then transitioning to the tactical space,

00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:51.179
I want to go to the military first. Obviously,

00:38:51.239 --> 00:38:53.300
you trained some soldiers like Tim Kennedy, who

00:38:53.300 --> 00:38:55.059
I had on the show a couple of times, actually

00:38:55.059 --> 00:38:56.579
got to roll with a couple of months ago. And

00:38:56.579 --> 00:38:58.460
when I say roll with, like he was the cat and

00:38:58.460 --> 00:39:00.199
I was the mouse that was kind of half dead. He

00:39:00.199 --> 00:39:03.079
was just toying with. He's amazing. Yeah. So

00:39:03.079 --> 00:39:05.840
how did you get into to working with the military?

00:39:07.380 --> 00:39:11.159
So I have friends, obviously, in the military

00:39:11.159 --> 00:39:15.039
and they. kind of pulled me into a lot of that.

00:39:15.179 --> 00:39:19.119
Um, so some of them, I have great programs like,

00:39:19.119 --> 00:39:21.920
uh, Greg Thompson has a SOC P program. And, uh,

00:39:22.099 --> 00:39:24.559
so I've gone to help him out and train some of

00:39:24.559 --> 00:39:27.679
the units that he's done, uh, worked with, um,

00:39:27.880 --> 00:39:30.820
here in Albuquerque. I'm the honorary commander

00:39:30.820 --> 00:39:33.300
for the pararescue, uh, schoolhouse out here.

00:39:33.500 --> 00:39:36.500
So I've helped those guys with combatives. Um,

00:39:36.659 --> 00:39:40.239
and then Uh, it's a, it's a, it's a big community

00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:41.659
and a small community as you probably already

00:39:41.659 --> 00:39:45.119
know. So, um, other people express an interest

00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:46.719
in, Hey, you help those guys out. Would you like

00:39:46.719 --> 00:39:50.019
to come help me out? Uh, and so of course I can't

00:39:50.019 --> 00:39:53.840
say no. Um, and so that's kind of my job doesn't

00:39:53.840 --> 00:39:55.880
have a lot of social value to it. Right. Like

00:39:55.880 --> 00:39:59.280
I don't. I'm not like my parents. My parents

00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:01.940
are like real heroes. I just basically hold a

00:40:01.940 --> 00:40:04.579
bucket and yell at people. So it's a nice chance

00:40:04.579 --> 00:40:06.400
for me to get – I don't charge anything to do

00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:08.280
it. So it's a nice chance for me to actually

00:40:08.280 --> 00:40:10.739
give something, contribute something back. For

00:40:10.739 --> 00:40:13.340
you, like a fireman, you spent your life in service

00:40:13.340 --> 00:40:15.260
to your community. Well, I don't have anything

00:40:15.260 --> 00:40:19.219
like that. So my way to give back is the only

00:40:19.219 --> 00:40:23.510
skill I have, which is – the combative side as

00:40:23.510 --> 00:40:27.090
well as the MMA side. And it's a lot of fun for

00:40:27.090 --> 00:40:29.429
me because you have so many different parameters

00:40:29.429 --> 00:40:32.949
to its mission -specific stuff. Very rarely are

00:40:32.949 --> 00:40:35.989
the same techniques used. It's a very, very different

00:40:35.989 --> 00:40:38.809
space. So it's a lot of fun to try to figure

00:40:38.809 --> 00:40:41.429
out the best ways to do that in the new spaces.

00:40:42.090 --> 00:40:45.750
And vetting it and fighting around with it and

00:40:45.750 --> 00:40:48.570
stuff is a lot of fun. Well, pararescue is an

00:40:48.570 --> 00:40:50.530
interesting special operations. I think that's

00:40:50.530 --> 00:40:53.889
the one that closely mirrors firefighters versus

00:40:53.889 --> 00:40:55.969
SEALs, Green Berets is more like the law enforcement

00:40:55.969 --> 00:40:59.150
side. But if I was ever going to be, and this

00:40:59.150 --> 00:41:00.889
is obviously if I ever even was able to pass

00:41:00.889 --> 00:41:03.809
the test that they have, I think, you know, a

00:41:03.809 --> 00:41:06.710
lot of us, the rescuer side, the thought of going

00:41:06.710 --> 00:41:09.170
in just to pull someone out and get them out

00:41:09.170 --> 00:41:12.389
is so, there's so many parallels to that. And

00:41:12.389 --> 00:41:13.829
I've had a couple of those guys on the show,

00:41:13.929 --> 00:41:19.329
but that's probably a... They're not known as

00:41:19.329 --> 00:41:21.309
much as they should, but I think it's an incredible

00:41:21.309 --> 00:41:24.190
member of the special operations community. You

00:41:24.190 --> 00:41:27.389
have to be so good at so many things, right?

00:41:27.449 --> 00:41:30.110
You have to be able to do all your firefighting

00:41:30.110 --> 00:41:32.670
pieces, but then you have to dive, jump, whatever

00:41:32.670 --> 00:41:35.949
it takes, and then all the medic side too. And

00:41:35.949 --> 00:41:39.050
yeah, we've very in the pararescue community

00:41:39.050 --> 00:41:41.269
should be very proud of all of the amazing people

00:41:41.269 --> 00:41:43.789
they've had come through there. And I'm super

00:41:43.789 --> 00:41:45.949
honored just to hang out with them. I'm very

00:41:45.949 --> 00:41:48.289
lucky that all these like super awesome people

00:41:48.289 --> 00:41:50.329
want to hang out with me for 10 minutes. consider

00:41:50.329 --> 00:41:54.010
myself very grateful well so are there any areas

00:41:54.010 --> 00:41:58.030
where um you know what you brought to those communities

00:41:58.030 --> 00:42:00.809
um there was kind of like aha moments because

00:42:00.809 --> 00:42:02.849
i know with with the introduction of combatives

00:42:02.849 --> 00:42:05.150
they went from almost like the old school karate

00:42:05.150 --> 00:42:08.349
to you know more jiu -jitsu muay thai you know

00:42:08.349 --> 00:42:11.230
the weapons uh training that they do what what

00:42:11.230 --> 00:42:15.219
were areas that you kind of had Had that perspective

00:42:15.219 --> 00:42:17.500
and like, OK, this this this is kind of dated

00:42:17.500 --> 00:42:21.139
now. This doesn't work in today's battleground.

00:42:21.380 --> 00:42:23.539
You know, let's try something different. Well,

00:42:23.619 --> 00:42:25.480
it's just about being practical about what you

00:42:25.480 --> 00:42:28.380
have. And again, I've had some very good people

00:42:28.380 --> 00:42:30.780
help me out. Luckily, I've been able to go to

00:42:30.780 --> 00:42:33.059
a lot of schools. And so I get to see their perspective.

00:42:33.860 --> 00:42:36.360
And I have a lot of great trainers that that

00:42:36.360 --> 00:42:39.000
have a lot of battle time experience dealing

00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:41.679
with that on the on the military side. And so

00:42:41.679 --> 00:42:44.219
they can say, you know, here's what we do. Here's

00:42:44.219 --> 00:42:46.380
why we do it. And as long as you can articulate

00:42:46.380 --> 00:42:49.579
reasons that make sense to do things, then you

00:42:49.579 --> 00:42:51.199
should do it. And, you know, these guys have

00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:53.760
had. I've been doing this for 20 years. Well,

00:42:53.780 --> 00:42:55.139
they've been doing that for 20 years. So I'm

00:42:55.139 --> 00:42:57.599
very grateful to have a lot of great people to

00:42:57.599 --> 00:42:59.739
help me and have taught me over the years. And

00:42:59.739 --> 00:43:01.840
I continue to learn, man, I couldn't imagine

00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:04.079
a worse death than not learning something new.

00:43:04.219 --> 00:43:07.119
So I love to go and get updated on what the different

00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:10.260
programs around the country are doing and seeing

00:43:10.260 --> 00:43:12.579
that current stuff. So on the military side,

00:43:12.739 --> 00:43:18.159
that's... My piece is – so I don't – I've been

00:43:18.159 --> 00:43:20.019
trained how to clear rooms. I've been trained

00:43:20.019 --> 00:43:22.539
how to do all of this stuff. But I don't teach

00:43:22.539 --> 00:43:24.260
any of that because I'm not a been -there -done

00:43:24.260 --> 00:43:26.139
-that guy, right? Like I wasn't downrange for

00:43:26.139 --> 00:43:29.500
15 years, and a lot of these guys were. So –

00:43:29.500 --> 00:43:33.920
but when you put a hand on a weapon and you understand

00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:37.699
here's our force array, right? Like you need

00:43:37.699 --> 00:43:41.679
to secure this, but these parameters lead to

00:43:41.679 --> 00:43:44.409
this being secured. So that you can transition

00:43:44.409 --> 00:43:46.869
to this, that kind of stuff is very important.

00:43:47.469 --> 00:43:49.909
And so my piece usually in the combative side

00:43:49.909 --> 00:43:52.449
is these a little bit of the defensive tactics,

00:43:52.510 --> 00:43:54.250
like how to get yourself out of bad situations

00:43:54.250 --> 00:43:57.269
and then a lot of subject control. How do you

00:43:57.269 --> 00:43:59.510
deal with no shoot? So when you're clearing rooms

00:43:59.510 --> 00:44:02.809
in the military and you are not going to shoot

00:44:02.809 --> 00:44:04.730
this person, what do you do with them? Where

00:44:04.730 --> 00:44:08.059
do they go? Why do they go there? Uh, where do

00:44:08.059 --> 00:44:10.460
you put them? How do you, you know, and, and

00:44:10.460 --> 00:44:12.440
so you have to learn which each individual unit,

00:44:12.500 --> 00:44:14.260
some people just run through them. Some people

00:44:14.260 --> 00:44:16.139
want to handcuff them. It depends on what their

00:44:16.139 --> 00:44:18.000
mission is. And that's where it gets really fun.

00:44:18.179 --> 00:44:19.980
It's because you have mission specific things

00:44:19.980 --> 00:44:22.780
to do, uh, with the, with the military, what

00:44:22.780 --> 00:44:26.280
I always call. Basically, assaulter combatives,

00:44:26.460 --> 00:44:28.940
you know, things that you do through there. And

00:44:28.940 --> 00:44:31.159
so as long as you are you studied what other

00:44:31.159 --> 00:44:33.679
people have done, you can't. The problem with

00:44:33.679 --> 00:44:35.539
some of that stuff, especially with the weapons,

00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:37.280
is you can't just like make it up and give to

00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:39.099
people like it has to be vetted. You have to

00:44:39.099 --> 00:44:42.400
figure it out. You can't just be like a 1980s

00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:44.280
ninja guy that's like, oh, well, you know, somebody

00:44:44.280 --> 00:44:46.460
grabbed my rifle. Here's what I would do. You

00:44:46.460 --> 00:44:48.099
have to vet that. You have to. I mean, at the

00:44:48.099 --> 00:44:49.760
bare minimum, you should be getting role players

00:44:49.760 --> 00:44:51.760
and fighting with your guns and seeing how that

00:44:51.760 --> 00:44:54.269
goes and that. kind of stuff so on the combative

00:44:54.269 --> 00:44:56.650
side life it's life and death so you can't just

00:44:56.650 --> 00:44:59.289
give it to somebody and be like you know if you

00:44:59.289 --> 00:45:01.630
if you try a new technique in mma and it doesn't

00:45:01.630 --> 00:45:04.530
work yeah you'll lose maybe a lot of money you

00:45:04.530 --> 00:45:05.929
lose your pride but you're still alive you'll

00:45:05.929 --> 00:45:07.650
fight again the next day that's not the case

00:45:07.650 --> 00:45:10.630
especially uh with first responders and military

00:45:10.630 --> 00:45:13.110
is like you your stuff needs to be on lock you

00:45:13.110 --> 00:45:14.989
need to be able to articulate why you're doing

00:45:14.989 --> 00:45:17.710
the things you're doing and uh and there's still

00:45:17.710 --> 00:45:19.150
and the other thing is to be open enough that

00:45:19.150 --> 00:45:20.789
there's more than one way there's nothing worse

00:45:20.789 --> 00:45:23.110
than saying Well, this is the way I do a two

00:45:23.110 --> 00:45:24.530
-handed deployment with a pistol, and this is

00:45:24.530 --> 00:45:27.090
the only way it is, and here's why. And then

00:45:27.090 --> 00:45:28.369
somebody else comes along and says, well, what

00:45:28.369 --> 00:45:30.349
if I pin you against the wall here? So, well,

00:45:30.449 --> 00:45:31.789
no, now this is the only way. You know what I

00:45:31.789 --> 00:45:33.010
mean? Like there's more than one way to skin

00:45:33.010 --> 00:45:35.389
a cat, just like there's more than one way to

00:45:35.389 --> 00:45:38.090
shoot. If you're running with team guys, it's

00:45:38.090 --> 00:45:41.170
all high porting. If you're running with group

00:45:41.170 --> 00:45:47.969
guys, it's all low ready. Craig Jackson, I'm

00:45:47.969 --> 00:45:51.480
having a day. Yeah, low ready, whatever you want

00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:55.199
to call it. So high port, low ready. But that

00:45:55.199 --> 00:45:57.360
shooting style works for them. They can put the

00:45:57.360 --> 00:45:58.940
rounds on the target and the time allocated.

00:45:59.320 --> 00:46:03.019
Then who cares? And you have an argument saying

00:46:03.019 --> 00:46:05.820
this is why you do this. So for me, it's about

00:46:05.820 --> 00:46:08.840
being flexible for the mission parameters and

00:46:08.840 --> 00:46:10.960
then putting the correct techniques to set them

00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:13.639
up for success, whatever that might be. And then

00:46:13.639 --> 00:46:16.679
figuring it out is a lot of fun too. Yeah. Well,

00:46:16.780 --> 00:46:19.440
and you mentioned as well about realism in training,

00:46:19.599 --> 00:46:21.239
and that's something that I think a lot of our

00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:24.900
departments battle is there's a push against

00:46:24.900 --> 00:46:29.119
realism from risk management and the unions or

00:46:29.119 --> 00:46:32.539
whatever it is, whoever in that space feels threatened

00:46:32.539 --> 00:46:37.539
in some way by making it realistic. That's how

00:46:37.539 --> 00:46:39.340
you learn if something works. You can draw all

00:46:39.340 --> 00:46:42.119
day on a whiteboard and arrows and you go here

00:46:42.119 --> 00:46:44.539
and he goes there. But the reality is until you

00:46:44.539 --> 00:46:46.800
try it and you realize half the people fell over

00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:49.159
or got stuck in a hole or whatever it was, you're

00:46:49.159 --> 00:46:52.079
not going to really figure out if these tactics

00:46:52.079 --> 00:46:53.860
work. And then if they don't, how the hell are

00:46:53.860 --> 00:46:55.320
you going to get yourself out of that situation?

00:46:56.519 --> 00:46:58.920
Exactly. And especially on the combative side,

00:46:59.139 --> 00:47:02.389
you have to... Because the room clearing is all

00:47:02.389 --> 00:47:04.429
above my pay grade. Again, I do it. It's fun.

00:47:04.610 --> 00:47:07.070
I enjoy it. I'm never going to take eight of

00:47:07.070 --> 00:47:09.030
my friends and break into somebody's house and

00:47:09.030 --> 00:47:10.849
clear the house. That's never going to be a thing

00:47:10.849 --> 00:47:13.289
for me. So for me, it's just something fun to

00:47:13.289 --> 00:47:15.969
learn and to make myself a more effective instructor

00:47:15.969 --> 00:47:18.650
to go through these schools to understand, okay,

00:47:18.670 --> 00:47:20.489
this is what these people have to deal with.

00:47:20.550 --> 00:47:21.969
This is the points of domination they're looking

00:47:21.969 --> 00:47:25.289
at. Now, how can I best assist them with the

00:47:25.289 --> 00:47:26.730
information that I've been giving and perhaps

00:47:26.730 --> 00:47:29.309
try some new ideas? No, that's not going to work.

00:47:29.690 --> 00:47:32.099
That's a little dangerous. What about this one?

00:47:32.139 --> 00:47:34.420
Let's do it for six months, eight months and

00:47:34.420 --> 00:47:37.820
see how that goes with simulation. And then we'll

00:47:37.820 --> 00:47:40.199
talk to operators about it. You know what I mean?

00:47:40.219 --> 00:47:43.340
So it should be a very long process in doing

00:47:43.340 --> 00:47:47.239
that for the military side. The police side,

00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:48.980
if you're going to transition into that later,

00:47:49.019 --> 00:47:50.400
I guess we can get into, but that's a little

00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:52.420
bit different. Yeah, no, let's do that now. That's

00:47:52.420 --> 00:47:56.139
a perfect segue. I like that. Right. Anyway,

00:47:56.300 --> 00:48:00.340
I will say about the military side that I myself

00:48:00.340 --> 00:48:03.400
and some other very high level combatives instructors,

00:48:03.559 --> 00:48:06.800
I kind of have a group chat at this point because

00:48:06.800 --> 00:48:09.639
there are so many. What I call the 1980s guys.

00:48:09.820 --> 00:48:12.340
So like in the 80s, as you remember, as a martial

00:48:12.340 --> 00:48:15.079
artist and in the early 90s, there were those

00:48:15.079 --> 00:48:16.780
guys that wanted to blow you through the wall

00:48:16.780 --> 00:48:19.579
with their key power or, you know, like the mist

00:48:19.579 --> 00:48:21.820
and the ninja death touches and all that stuff.

00:48:21.940 --> 00:48:24.739
Well, those MMA took care of a lot of that because

00:48:24.739 --> 00:48:26.679
you could dojo storm them. You could say, OK,

00:48:26.780 --> 00:48:28.559
you do your stuff. I'll do my stuff. Oh, I don't

00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:31.679
want to kill you. Well, you try to kill me and

00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:34.199
we'll fight and, you know, we'll be friends afterwards.

00:48:34.340 --> 00:48:37.449
Let's just see what works. you get a lot of those

00:48:37.449 --> 00:48:39.429
guys transitioning into the combatives world

00:48:39.429 --> 00:48:42.409
now because it's that same thing again well i

00:48:42.409 --> 00:48:43.889
can't really teach it to you because i you know

00:48:43.889 --> 00:48:45.869
i have to shoot to shoot you to show you it works

00:48:45.869 --> 00:48:48.550
so you get a lot of that those guys and you have

00:48:48.550 --> 00:48:50.369
to be very careful with those guys and the other

00:48:50.369 --> 00:48:52.110
thing you have to be careful of on the military

00:48:52.110 --> 00:48:55.789
side is mma like mma is not combatives like you're

00:48:55.789 --> 00:48:58.250
not going to kickbox somebody you're going to

00:48:58.250 --> 00:48:59.929
use knees you'll push kick them into the middle

00:48:59.929 --> 00:49:01.550
of a room something like that but you're not

00:49:01.550 --> 00:49:04.860
if you like drop all your gear and start fist

00:49:04.860 --> 00:49:08.480
fighting somebody in a room um i i would be hard

00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:10.280
pressed to see that your decision matrix there

00:49:10.280 --> 00:49:12.460
i'm not saying it can't happen you know stuff

00:49:12.460 --> 00:49:14.179
happens whatever but that shouldn't be your first

00:49:14.179 --> 00:49:18.119
line for sure so there's a lot of mma is a one

00:49:18.119 --> 00:49:20.699
-on -one fight in a cage against a person that

00:49:20.699 --> 00:49:22.480
doesn't have anything it's a very different thing

00:49:22.480 --> 00:49:24.679
than a guy that has tools on him dealing with

00:49:24.679 --> 00:49:28.059
a dynamic environment and in the team setting

00:49:28.059 --> 00:49:31.550
both pro for against you and with you so there's

00:49:31.550 --> 00:49:33.530
a lot to you have to be very careful if you're

00:49:33.530 --> 00:49:35.070
a department or if you're a military organization

00:49:35.070 --> 00:49:37.650
looking for combatives there's a lot of really

00:49:37.650 --> 00:49:40.230
great programs by a lot of battlefield tested

00:49:40.230 --> 00:49:42.730
techniques out there that are really really good

00:49:42.730 --> 00:49:44.489
but i will say if you are a military unit make

00:49:44.489 --> 00:49:46.010
sure that you vet your guy just because they

00:49:46.010 --> 00:49:48.079
know jiu -jitsu It doesn't mean – it's great

00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:50.579
sustainment training. Like that's great to train

00:49:50.579 --> 00:49:52.780
like every day to keep your skills up, jiu -jitsu

00:49:52.780 --> 00:49:55.239
being the best one by far because it's so much

00:49:55.239 --> 00:49:57.420
controlling. But that doesn't mean that you want

00:49:57.420 --> 00:49:59.340
to bring those guys in and have them start teaching

00:49:59.340 --> 00:50:03.639
your guys how to do what – I don't know, tornado

00:50:03.639 --> 00:50:05.659
kicks with their pistol in the hand, whatever

00:50:05.659 --> 00:50:08.039
they'll come up with. So I would say be careful

00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:09.980
for that. So then that's the same thing. The

00:50:09.980 --> 00:50:13.579
same caveat goes in law enforcement. So law enforcement,

00:50:13.699 --> 00:50:15.820
again, what I found working with them, I started

00:50:15.820 --> 00:50:19.199
working with APD in their mid -90s. And so I've

00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:21.460
been working with them forever and a day. And

00:50:21.460 --> 00:50:22.860
what I found in law enforcement, again, it's

00:50:22.860 --> 00:50:25.519
mission specific. You have some law enforcement

00:50:25.519 --> 00:50:28.320
entities that are very team tactic oriented.

00:50:28.380 --> 00:50:30.260
In other words, you're almost always going to

00:50:30.260 --> 00:50:33.019
have somebody within a minute or two. to back

00:50:33.019 --> 00:50:35.300
you up. Then you have some state police officers

00:50:35.300 --> 00:50:38.659
that you're five to 10 minutes, even longer sometimes.

00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:44.000
So what does your unit need? to set you up for

00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:47.960
success. Um, and, and so working the police is

00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:50.579
a lot easier for me because I, you can go so

00:50:50.579 --> 00:50:53.780
much more hands -on with it. Um, and I, the,

00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:56.659
um, because I've been with them for so long,

00:50:56.760 --> 00:50:59.219
it's a lot easier to see, okay, you know, you

00:50:59.219 --> 00:51:00.860
can have an articulable force array, starting

00:51:00.860 --> 00:51:02.920
with verbal, moving all the way through your

00:51:02.920 --> 00:51:05.539
force array to getting them in handcuffs. Or

00:51:05.539 --> 00:51:06.900
if you have to turn it into offensive tactic

00:51:06.900 --> 00:51:08.719
situation, transitioning to lethal, whatever

00:51:08.719 --> 00:51:12.199
it may be. But you need to be able to articulate

00:51:12.199 --> 00:51:16.519
why you're doing each and every maneuver. When

00:51:16.519 --> 00:51:19.139
you decide to go hands -on, when you decide to

00:51:19.139 --> 00:51:23.480
step back and go to less than lethal, whatever

00:51:23.480 --> 00:51:25.719
your decision matrix is, it can't just be like,

00:51:25.780 --> 00:51:27.420
well, grab them. You know what I mean? You have

00:51:27.420 --> 00:51:29.760
to try to verbally de -escalate. You then verbally

00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:31.320
de -escalate while you're holding them in these

00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:34.260
control positions. And so on the police side

00:51:34.260 --> 00:51:38.059
and a little bit on the military side as well,

00:51:38.139 --> 00:51:40.699
but I came up with kind of these fighting for

00:51:40.699 --> 00:51:42.260
these positions where you get them in control

00:51:42.260 --> 00:51:44.260
that you can kind of move into handcuffs and

00:51:44.260 --> 00:51:46.480
really utilizing teamwork and stuff like that.

00:51:46.559 --> 00:51:48.940
So the police stuff has been a super lot of fun

00:51:48.940 --> 00:51:51.179
for me. Right. Well, Albuquerque is obviously

00:51:51.179 --> 00:51:53.099
very lucky to have you on the doorstep. What

00:51:53.099 --> 00:51:57.019
have you witnessed kind of nationally in your

00:51:57.019 --> 00:52:01.059
20 years as far as the ability physically and?

00:52:02.409 --> 00:52:06.309
uh jiu -jitsu wise of the average u .s police

00:52:06.309 --> 00:52:09.309
officer well i mean here's the thing is you have

00:52:09.309 --> 00:52:11.590
to cut police officers a huge break and here's

00:52:11.590 --> 00:52:16.070
why in a perfect world you would do your shift

00:52:16.070 --> 00:52:20.150
maybe work out at lunch go after your shift you

00:52:20.150 --> 00:52:22.389
go to do a jiu -jitsu class for your sustainment

00:52:22.389 --> 00:52:24.090
training so that you're rolling around and controlling

00:52:24.090 --> 00:52:27.300
people and then you would go home You got kids.

00:52:27.860 --> 00:52:29.519
Someone's got to pick them up from school. Someone's

00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:32.119
got to drop them off. You're exhausted. And as

00:52:32.119 --> 00:52:34.380
you know, if you've had a good run, let's say

00:52:34.380 --> 00:52:37.159
you've had a good two -day run where as your

00:52:37.159 --> 00:52:39.400
fireman, you have not slept. You haven't sat

00:52:39.400 --> 00:52:40.860
down. You know what I mean? Like the last thing

00:52:40.860 --> 00:52:42.739
you're going to do after a 48 -hour marathon

00:52:42.739 --> 00:52:45.880
is go train. Well, that can happen to you several

00:52:45.880 --> 00:52:48.940
weeks in a row. So it's super hard to do sustainment

00:52:48.940 --> 00:52:51.800
training unless you've got some kind of an amazing

00:52:51.800 --> 00:52:53.880
schedule. If your significant other picks up

00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:55.340
the slack, you know what I mean? So there's a

00:52:55.340 --> 00:52:57.199
lot of cavities. And a lot of people are just

00:52:57.199 --> 00:52:59.639
exhausted. I mean, by the end of that day, you're

00:52:59.639 --> 00:53:02.639
so mentally exhausted, especially if you have

00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:05.820
any kind of PTSD issues that you're working with

00:53:05.820 --> 00:53:07.639
as well. I mean, the whole thing is so exhausting.

00:53:08.300 --> 00:53:10.300
It's hard for people to get sustainment training.

00:53:10.420 --> 00:53:12.500
And in my opinion, sustainment training keeps

00:53:12.500 --> 00:53:14.260
you from being exhausted, but not everybody has

00:53:14.260 --> 00:53:18.000
that same experience. So you have to cut them

00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:21.519
slack there. Now, obviously, there's good and

00:53:21.519 --> 00:53:23.159
bad in everything. There's good and bad police

00:53:23.159 --> 00:53:26.340
officers. I know great police officers. I know

00:53:26.340 --> 00:53:29.280
police officers that aren't so great. There's

00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:32.440
good and bad in everything. But I will say that

00:53:32.440 --> 00:53:36.320
the knowledge base is getting better now as far

00:53:36.320 --> 00:53:38.300
as being able to control people without injuring

00:53:38.300 --> 00:53:41.800
them. That is a very good trend that is happening.

00:53:42.780 --> 00:53:46.280
But still, there's a lot of police officers that...

00:53:46.860 --> 00:53:49.380
do what i call the the day after and that's you

00:53:49.380 --> 00:53:51.539
they'll get into a knockdown drag out where they

00:53:51.539 --> 00:53:54.440
almost get in some real trouble. And then the

00:53:54.440 --> 00:53:55.719
day after, they're like, I'm never going to let

00:53:55.719 --> 00:53:57.260
that happen again. And then they'll start doing

00:53:57.260 --> 00:53:59.900
the sustainment training wherever it may be.

00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:02.599
But I will say that nationally, I think the combatives

00:54:02.599 --> 00:54:04.679
programs are coming along better. So the police

00:54:04.679 --> 00:54:07.880
officers are definitely more educated now in

00:54:07.880 --> 00:54:12.039
total than they ever have been before. I think

00:54:12.039 --> 00:54:14.079
they're getting more professional, at least in

00:54:14.079 --> 00:54:17.079
Albuquerque, especially there. We're learning.

00:54:17.159 --> 00:54:20.920
We're growing. People are seeking out training.

00:54:21.039 --> 00:54:22.599
I see that a lot. I work with a lot of police

00:54:22.599 --> 00:54:24.579
departments nationally as well. And people are

00:54:24.579 --> 00:54:26.719
seeking out training. I'm really seeing people

00:54:26.719 --> 00:54:31.360
looking for a simple way to get effective training.

00:54:31.500 --> 00:54:33.860
I'm seeing a lot of that. So I think that we're

00:54:33.860 --> 00:54:36.099
nationally we're moving in the right direction

00:54:36.099 --> 00:54:37.719
as police officers. Now, obviously, I'd like

00:54:37.719 --> 00:54:40.960
to see everybody a lot more healthy, a lot more.

00:54:42.659 --> 00:54:44.320
proactive but there's just so many variables

00:54:44.320 --> 00:54:46.780
to deal with it's it's very hard for police officers

00:54:46.780 --> 00:54:49.039
yeah yeah and i mean i personally think it should

00:54:49.039 --> 00:54:51.360
be inbuilt into their day i mean i think i agree

00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:54.900
should be paid to train um but and then this

00:54:54.900 --> 00:54:58.579
project is i i say this a lot it's a double -pronged

00:54:58.579 --> 00:55:01.599
project where i hold the firefighter police officer

00:55:01.599 --> 00:55:04.809
soldier accountable and then i hold the and administration

00:55:04.809 --> 00:55:07.610
in which they work accountable as well. Oh, that's

00:55:07.610 --> 00:55:09.750
a great, that's absolutely right. That's an absolutely

00:55:09.750 --> 00:55:11.789
right way to look at it. And as a perfect example,

00:55:11.829 --> 00:55:13.750
we had Sheepdog Response come to Ocala a couple

00:55:13.750 --> 00:55:17.650
of years ago. Ah, my boy, yeah. And I went through

00:55:17.650 --> 00:55:19.820
it and then it was right. Literally, I mean,

00:55:19.820 --> 00:55:22.059
I think it was a week after the Parkland shooting

00:55:22.059 --> 00:55:26.000
that we had here. So some anonymous donors came

00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:28.719
in and donated a bunch of money and opened up

00:55:28.719 --> 00:55:31.199
all these free spots for first responders, police,

00:55:31.360 --> 00:55:33.940
fire, medics. That's great. And the issue we

00:55:33.940 --> 00:55:37.230
had was... They didn't even fill the law enforcement

00:55:37.230 --> 00:55:39.769
the first day. And the second day, they had even

00:55:39.769 --> 00:55:42.269
less guys show back up the second time. So even

00:55:42.269 --> 00:55:45.550
when it was put on a platter, that goes on really

00:55:45.550 --> 00:55:48.150
the ownership of the individual then. But then

00:55:48.150 --> 00:55:50.889
also it's on the administration to be like, we

00:55:50.889 --> 00:55:53.070
need you guys to go or promote it or whatever.

00:55:53.210 --> 00:55:56.610
But it was so hard. And myself and a few other

00:55:56.610 --> 00:56:00.349
guys really pushed it and promoted it. But again,

00:56:00.510 --> 00:56:02.519
I think there's a lot of fear. Because a lot

00:56:02.519 --> 00:56:04.539
of police officers know that they're not where

00:56:04.539 --> 00:56:06.219
they need to be. But that's where you start.

00:56:06.340 --> 00:56:08.880
It's day one. I mean, I got my ass handed to

00:56:08.880 --> 00:56:11.460
me. I hardly ever shot before. I mean, I was

00:56:11.460 --> 00:56:13.019
pulling mags out of my pocket because I didn't

00:56:13.019 --> 00:56:15.619
have a belt even. But, you know, that's what

00:56:15.619 --> 00:56:17.619
you do. You swallow your pride and you start

00:56:17.619 --> 00:56:20.420
today. Well, that's very hard, especially when

00:56:20.420 --> 00:56:23.000
you're looking to police officers to be in control.

00:56:23.719 --> 00:56:25.800
situation, right? That's their job to kind of

00:56:25.800 --> 00:56:28.199
come in and deescalate and take control of situations.

00:56:29.079 --> 00:56:32.179
Yeah, for a police officer to be able to do that

00:56:32.179 --> 00:56:35.059
is very scary. I will say that one of the most

00:56:35.059 --> 00:56:37.400
dangerous trends that we have right now in policing

00:56:37.400 --> 00:56:40.780
is because we need so many of them, we are lowering

00:56:40.780 --> 00:56:43.340
our standards. And I do worry about that. The

00:56:43.340 --> 00:56:45.559
vetting process of letting somebody be a police

00:56:45.559 --> 00:56:48.039
officer or a fireman, I think, is super important.

00:56:48.659 --> 00:56:53.590
And I see that we I'm not talking about any department

00:56:53.590 --> 00:56:56.369
in particular, but as a trend, we just to get

00:56:56.369 --> 00:56:58.949
bodies on the streets. But when you lower, really

00:56:58.949 --> 00:57:00.590
lower, I don't mean lower a little bit. I mean,

00:57:00.610 --> 00:57:02.849
really lower, like letting people pass that shouldn't

00:57:02.849 --> 00:57:05.090
be there. You're just setting them up, everybody

00:57:05.090 --> 00:57:09.309
up for failure in five, 10 years. So I kind of

00:57:09.309 --> 00:57:11.050
left that. I think nationally as a police force,

00:57:11.110 --> 00:57:13.889
we are getting better. better educated. We are

00:57:13.889 --> 00:57:16.429
becoming more effective. We're addressing issues

00:57:16.429 --> 00:57:20.130
like race and misogyny and a lot of stuff. And

00:57:20.130 --> 00:57:21.650
I think we're making strides there. I really

00:57:21.650 --> 00:57:25.510
do. But the vetting process is going to set us

00:57:25.510 --> 00:57:27.210
up for failure. I will say that's one hole that

00:57:27.210 --> 00:57:29.429
I've seen. Absolutely. Well, an area that I've

00:57:29.429 --> 00:57:31.750
spoken about a lot is just that. I've witnessed

00:57:31.750 --> 00:57:34.570
great fire departments that the bar was set incredibly

00:57:34.570 --> 00:57:36.329
high. They had no problem cutting you if you

00:57:36.329 --> 00:57:39.429
didn't make it. That ended up having great people

00:57:39.429 --> 00:57:41.320
all the way through the ranks. And I've worked

00:57:41.320 --> 00:57:43.960
for a department where the bar was buried underground.

00:57:44.280 --> 00:57:47.019
It was so low and it was, you know, it was a

00:57:47.019 --> 00:57:50.280
ripple effect and that same standard then promotes

00:57:50.280 --> 00:57:53.460
through. And what I've seen is whether it's the

00:57:53.460 --> 00:57:55.440
SEAL teams or whether it's, I mean, you, for

00:57:55.440 --> 00:58:02.230
example, when you have a department. where there's

00:58:02.230 --> 00:58:06.150
a high level of professionalism and you're respected

00:58:06.150 --> 00:58:09.369
by around, people will seek you out to join your

00:58:09.369 --> 00:58:12.210
department. But when you bring that bar down,

00:58:12.329 --> 00:58:15.349
it has the reverse effect, in my opinion. Yep,

00:58:15.409 --> 00:58:17.690
I couldn't agree more. And it'll be interesting

00:58:17.690 --> 00:58:20.590
because we need so many. I mean, police and firemen

00:58:20.590 --> 00:58:23.769
are so overworked. It'll be interesting to see.

00:58:24.599 --> 00:58:27.239
how we solve that problem. It'll, it'll be an

00:58:27.239 --> 00:58:28.880
interesting, uh, it's going to be an interesting

00:58:28.880 --> 00:58:30.659
time, I think in the next five or 10 years to

00:58:30.659 --> 00:58:32.699
see, because they're actually going to be well

00:58:32.699 --> 00:58:34.559
-trained, but they're not, like you said, they're

00:58:34.559 --> 00:58:35.860
going to be the individuals that aren't going

00:58:35.860 --> 00:58:37.679
to want to go to the sheep dog training right

00:58:37.679 --> 00:58:40.300
there. Their bar was never set that high, so

00:58:40.300 --> 00:58:42.920
they never really want to do it. So it'll be

00:58:42.920 --> 00:58:45.050
interesting. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, one more

00:58:45.050 --> 00:58:47.969
just real tangent question, but I had Bas Rutten

00:58:47.969 --> 00:58:51.530
on a while ago. That's my man. Yeah, he was awesome.

00:58:51.650 --> 00:58:55.809
This poor guy just had that neck issue. But he

00:58:55.809 --> 00:58:58.210
was talking about striking. And obviously, in

00:58:58.210 --> 00:59:00.090
MMA, you've got the four -ounce gloves. You're

00:59:00.090 --> 00:59:02.909
able to strike with a closed fist. What's your

00:59:02.909 --> 00:59:06.750
take of striking in the street? Are you a proponent

00:59:06.750 --> 00:59:09.610
of the open -hand strike? Yeah, for sure. Well,

00:59:09.690 --> 00:59:12.110
I use whatever tools it takes. The situation

00:59:12.110 --> 00:59:15.599
will be dependent. Um, if I'm fighting more than

00:59:15.599 --> 00:59:18.679
one person, I will both close and open hand.

00:59:18.719 --> 00:59:21.000
Like I don't, I don't ever say you always fight

00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:22.780
with a closed fist. You always fight with an

00:59:22.780 --> 00:59:24.679
open palm. I think there's time for both. If

00:59:24.679 --> 00:59:27.340
you're just defending yourself, um, police officers

00:59:27.340 --> 00:59:29.099
should never be hitting with closed fists. I

00:59:29.099 --> 00:59:30.559
mean, if they have to transition to lethal, they're

00:59:30.559 --> 00:59:31.639
not going to be able to hold anything if they

00:59:31.639 --> 00:59:34.599
shatter their hands. Uh, so if you get into a

00:59:34.599 --> 00:59:36.679
situation, especially if you're a state police

00:59:36.679 --> 00:59:38.119
officer on the side of the road, you've got to

00:59:38.119 --> 00:59:40.500
fight two or three people. Um, you should be

00:59:40.500 --> 00:59:42.960
transitioning to tools and, and using palm strikes

00:59:42.960 --> 00:59:45.179
and elbows more than any, more than palm strikes.

00:59:45.260 --> 00:59:47.639
Elbows are where it's at. Um, so palm strikes

00:59:47.639 --> 00:59:50.119
are great. Like it, listen, if boss hits you

00:59:50.119 --> 00:59:52.840
with a palm strike, you're going out like, but

00:59:52.840 --> 00:59:54.820
that's boss route that everybody can't generate.

00:59:54.900 --> 00:59:56.920
I mean, everybody can hit hard, but there's only

00:59:56.920 --> 01:00:00.079
one boss route and he's amazing. Um, so I, I

01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:02.019
like elbows. I find elbows are a little more

01:00:02.019 --> 01:00:05.159
effective than anything else. Um, but I'll, uh,

01:00:06.059 --> 01:00:08.000
Great finger jabbing to the eyes, that kind of

01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:10.119
stuff. A street fight is a street fight. So I

01:00:10.119 --> 01:00:12.039
try not to make it as Marcus's Queen Barry's

01:00:12.039 --> 01:00:15.039
as possible these days. But as far as when I'm

01:00:15.039 --> 01:00:18.139
teaching people, but to me, it's about problem

01:00:18.139 --> 01:00:20.639
solving. It's really if you want to learn martial

01:00:20.639 --> 01:00:22.460
arts, then basically you're learning how to solve

01:00:22.460 --> 01:00:24.920
a problem. And that problem can be an individual.

01:00:25.059 --> 01:00:26.820
That problem can be a group of individuals. It

01:00:26.820 --> 01:00:28.460
can be an individual. It's an environment. It

01:00:28.460 --> 01:00:32.019
can be an individual out in a park. So it's just

01:00:32.019 --> 01:00:34.800
about using your environment, using whatever

01:00:34.800 --> 01:00:36.800
techniques, be it a closed fist. Sometimes closed

01:00:36.800 --> 01:00:38.719
fists are appropriate. Sometimes open palms are

01:00:38.719 --> 01:00:40.840
appropriate. But I never want to say to somebody,

01:00:40.940 --> 01:00:44.059
this is the only way you do this. I would say

01:00:44.059 --> 01:00:46.639
do it. And if it's not working, it's not working.

01:00:46.679 --> 01:00:48.860
Obviously, if you break your hand, you're going

01:00:48.860 --> 01:00:51.460
to have a longer day. So that's one mark against

01:00:51.460 --> 01:00:56.090
closed fisting. And experienced fights where

01:00:56.090 --> 01:00:58.750
I've had my hands closed and seen other people

01:00:58.750 --> 01:01:00.590
with their hands closed and had zero problems

01:01:00.590 --> 01:01:02.250
with breaking their hands. So, you know, it is

01:01:02.250 --> 01:01:04.949
what it is. Yeah. Actually, the worst thing I've

01:01:04.949 --> 01:01:07.190
had in my hand was a bone bruise sparring one

01:01:07.190 --> 01:01:09.809
time. I would think I would have either broken

01:01:09.809 --> 01:01:13.170
my hand and it was like six months. Yeah, probably

01:01:13.170 --> 01:01:16.360
so. That's probably accurate. All right. Well,

01:01:16.420 --> 01:01:18.480
then I want to transition to Deliver Fund. So

01:01:18.480 --> 01:01:21.460
I had Nick McKinley on the show doing amazing

01:01:21.460 --> 01:01:23.960
things with, you know, human trafficking. So

01:01:23.960 --> 01:01:25.639
how did you find your way into that organization?

01:01:26.340 --> 01:01:28.980
Well, actually, Nick, I found my way to Nick

01:01:28.980 --> 01:01:32.679
through the combative side because of where he

01:01:32.679 --> 01:01:36.440
used to work. And so I found him through that

01:01:36.440 --> 01:01:40.880
originally. And then we became friends. I actually

01:01:40.880 --> 01:01:42.260
met. Did you tell you how we met on the side

01:01:42.260 --> 01:01:44.860
of a mountain? No, he didn't. Uh, I actually

01:01:44.860 --> 01:01:47.380
met him when he was in pararescue. So before

01:01:47.380 --> 01:01:49.480
he went to the agency, he was a pararescue man,

01:01:49.559 --> 01:01:52.139
but this one, I was young and I was up on the

01:01:52.139 --> 01:01:54.539
side of a mountain training with a bunch of fighters.

01:01:54.599 --> 01:01:56.960
Your, your friend, Greg can be a little ridiculous

01:01:56.960 --> 01:02:00.920
about mountain runs and as, as many fighters

01:02:00.920 --> 01:02:04.440
will tell you and still do. We push it pretty

01:02:04.440 --> 01:02:07.699
hard. So I was up in the Sandia Mountains in

01:02:07.699 --> 01:02:09.960
New Mexico in the middle of kind of a snowy day.

01:02:10.579 --> 01:02:12.679
And I'd taken some Australian fighters that had

01:02:12.679 --> 01:02:14.760
never really been in snow before. And we were

01:02:14.760 --> 01:02:16.159
romping around and we're not really training,

01:02:16.219 --> 01:02:18.079
having fun. Anyway, long story short, the guy

01:02:18.079 --> 01:02:19.500
was this guy was up there. We heard him calling

01:02:19.500 --> 01:02:22.619
for help. We went I find Nick. I went back. It

01:02:22.619 --> 01:02:24.420
started blizzarding pretty hard. I find Nick

01:02:24.420 --> 01:02:27.219
McKinley, who I didn't know was Nick McKinley

01:02:27.219 --> 01:02:29.800
at the time. And I kind of guided him around

01:02:29.800 --> 01:02:31.679
where we had heard the guy, but the guy had already

01:02:31.679 --> 01:02:34.119
moved. And so then Nick was worried about me

01:02:34.119 --> 01:02:38.099
becoming like a a liability because we're romping

01:02:38.099 --> 01:02:39.900
around in full on blizzard conditions at this

01:02:39.900 --> 01:02:42.059
point. And I'm in like jeans and a puffy jacket,

01:02:42.159 --> 01:02:44.469
which is what I'm always in. And so Nick's like,

01:02:44.510 --> 01:02:46.150
I think you're going to get hypothermia. We better

01:02:46.150 --> 01:02:48.829
get you off the mountain. And, you know, I I'm

01:02:48.829 --> 01:02:50.750
helping out people. I'm running around in a blizzard.

01:02:50.809 --> 01:02:52.590
You couldn't find a happier Greg Jackson. So

01:02:52.590 --> 01:02:55.130
I was like, really? Now I'm all right. And again,

01:02:55.210 --> 01:02:58.230
I grew up in the in the mountains of New Mexico.

01:02:58.269 --> 01:03:01.030
Like I do winter camping all the time. And the

01:03:01.030 --> 01:03:03.570
cold never really bothered me. But Nick Nick

01:03:03.570 --> 01:03:05.130
was like, yeah, you're probably going to get

01:03:05.130 --> 01:03:07.010
hypothermia. So anyway, that's how I met him.

01:03:07.010 --> 01:03:08.869
The years later, I met him again through the

01:03:08.869 --> 01:03:11.820
when. He was working in the agency and then he

01:03:11.820 --> 01:03:13.900
got out and started to deliver fun for reasons

01:03:13.900 --> 01:03:15.739
I'm sure I already told you. Then he said, hey,

01:03:15.860 --> 01:03:17.280
do you want to help out? I'm like, yeah, but

01:03:17.280 --> 01:03:19.579
I didn't even know it was a thing. Like I'm so

01:03:19.579 --> 01:03:22.099
ignorant that I didn't even know that human trafficking

01:03:22.099 --> 01:03:25.320
was still I mean, I grew up in the hood, but

01:03:25.320 --> 01:03:27.840
you don't really see like, oh, that's human trafficking.

01:03:27.880 --> 01:03:29.139
You know what I mean? Like I wouldn't even know

01:03:29.139 --> 01:03:32.940
what indicators to look for. uh so i i was very

01:03:32.940 --> 01:03:36.519
surprised that uh that slavery still exists and

01:03:36.519 --> 01:03:38.940
i was raised by hippies that uh yeah slavery

01:03:38.940 --> 01:03:41.639
is about the worst thing so uh i immediately

01:03:41.639 --> 01:03:43.219
jumped in to see whatever i could do to help

01:03:43.219 --> 01:03:45.579
out yeah well and it was interesting the conversation

01:03:45.579 --> 01:03:49.159
because as a firefighter paramedic you know i

01:03:49.159 --> 01:03:51.800
look back at my 14 years and and and was kind

01:03:51.800 --> 01:03:53.539
of asking myself like how many of the people

01:03:53.539 --> 01:03:56.340
i had that were you know clearly of the less

01:03:56.340 --> 01:04:00.880
fortunate end um how many of them were were enslaved

01:04:00.880 --> 01:04:03.400
in some way shape or form whether it's in prostitution

01:04:03.400 --> 01:04:05.519
or whether it's internationally and we don't

01:04:05.519 --> 01:04:07.480
think to to look for that and it totally changed

01:04:07.480 --> 01:04:09.039
the way i looked at the patients for the last

01:04:09.039 --> 01:04:12.940
bit of my career wow that's awesome yeah i mean

01:04:12.940 --> 01:04:14.679
right like you just you don't know what you don't

01:04:14.679 --> 01:04:16.500
know right and and i think that you and i were

01:04:16.500 --> 01:04:19.539
both in that same box yeah so were there any

01:04:19.539 --> 01:04:21.420
kind of stories that stuck with you of people

01:04:21.420 --> 01:04:24.079
you came across that were were victims or success

01:04:24.079 --> 01:04:25.820
stories of some of the agencies you work with

01:04:26.429 --> 01:04:29.010
Yeah, the success stories are the ones that I

01:04:29.010 --> 01:04:32.570
really like. I mean, how hard Nick works. He's

01:04:32.570 --> 01:04:35.269
an animal. You can see why he did as well as

01:04:35.269 --> 01:04:37.570
he did when he was downrange. He's an animal.

01:04:37.670 --> 01:04:40.250
That guy just goes and goes and goes. It's very

01:04:40.250 --> 01:04:44.469
rare that you find somebody that's just stubbornly

01:04:44.469 --> 01:04:50.699
good, just like a honey badger of good. He just

01:04:50.699 --> 01:04:53.019
tries to do the best thing that he can all the

01:04:53.019 --> 01:04:55.840
time. There's no ego with him. He always tries

01:04:55.840 --> 01:04:58.420
to set everybody else up for success. You never

01:04:58.420 --> 01:05:02.380
see him being like, well, I'm the guy. You never

01:05:02.380 --> 01:05:04.440
hear that from him. He's always pushing credit

01:05:04.440 --> 01:05:08.099
off to others. He's just a very impressive person

01:05:08.099 --> 01:05:15.360
to me. Watching him really push hard and see

01:05:15.360 --> 01:05:18.780
he's super happy when he helps even just one

01:05:18.780 --> 01:05:22.019
person. He'll tell you the story or I'm involved

01:05:22.019 --> 01:05:26.079
now. So you'll see the kind of the fruits of

01:05:26.079 --> 01:05:28.820
his labor. And it's very impressive. It's also

01:05:28.820 --> 01:05:32.000
very addicting. Once you help people out, that's

01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:36.000
a hard thing to stop, man. You're a fireman.

01:05:36.019 --> 01:05:37.320
You've been doing it your whole life, right?

01:05:37.400 --> 01:05:41.000
So the ability to like, oh, I helped. I went

01:05:41.000 --> 01:05:43.340
home and I actually helped somebody out. And

01:05:43.340 --> 01:05:45.380
listen, the next day it might go all bad for

01:05:45.380 --> 01:05:48.239
them. Today, I helped him out. That's a that's

01:05:48.239 --> 01:05:53.380
a powerful emotion. And and I think so when you

01:05:53.380 --> 01:05:56.539
see, you know, I mean, there's we had in Albuquerque,

01:05:56.579 --> 01:06:00.480
we had a one of these traffickers keeping the

01:06:00.480 --> 01:06:03.409
women in literal dog cages like. You see that

01:06:03.409 --> 01:06:05.510
and then you get them out of the dog cages. You

01:06:05.510 --> 01:06:07.230
know, we work in tandem with police. We're not

01:06:07.230 --> 01:06:09.710
door kicking down anybody. We're private citizens.

01:06:10.010 --> 01:06:12.070
But we work in tandem with, as he's sure he's

01:06:12.070 --> 01:06:14.230
explained. But when you know that that's not

01:06:14.230 --> 01:06:17.050
going to happen to those people anymore, that's

01:06:17.050 --> 01:06:20.210
pretty addicting. Yeah. And I talk about that

01:06:20.210 --> 01:06:24.190
with the kindness component. What is so crazy

01:06:24.190 --> 01:06:26.989
is it feels that there's an intrinsic reward

01:06:26.989 --> 01:06:29.150
system in the human body that when you do something

01:06:29.150 --> 01:06:32.300
kind, it feels good. And when you're an asshole,

01:06:32.400 --> 01:06:35.639
it feels bad. And yet it seems like such a hard

01:06:35.639 --> 01:06:37.480
sell to get people to be nice to each other.

01:06:38.320 --> 01:06:40.780
Well, I think that, again, that gets hidden and

01:06:40.780 --> 01:06:44.619
layered. And, you know, it just takes one bad

01:06:44.619 --> 01:06:47.820
person to ruin everybody's day. And I think that

01:06:47.820 --> 01:06:51.079
that... It gets hidden. I think that I like –

01:06:51.079 --> 01:06:53.519
now listen. I grew up where I grew up. So there's

01:06:53.519 --> 01:06:55.280
fish eyes. There's dudes that don't matter what

01:06:55.280 --> 01:06:57.980
you do. Either they are genetically made that

01:06:57.980 --> 01:07:00.139
way or they've been institutionalized so much

01:07:00.139 --> 01:07:02.440
that you will never fix them. There's just no

01:07:02.440 --> 01:07:05.480
fixing them. Like I get your lefty recidivism

01:07:05.480 --> 01:07:08.059
programs. Like I understand completely that you're

01:07:08.059 --> 01:07:10.920
trying and God bless you. Keep trying. But you're

01:07:10.920 --> 01:07:12.880
not – there are dudes that I know that you just

01:07:12.880 --> 01:07:14.679
– you're not going to fix. Either they're mentally

01:07:14.679 --> 01:07:17.550
ill and they need meds or they're just – they've

01:07:17.550 --> 01:07:19.489
just become this, this thing and there's no,

01:07:19.510 --> 01:07:22.349
there's no coming back. Um, and then there's

01:07:22.349 --> 01:07:24.489
people that I think that, uh, that are layered,

01:07:24.530 --> 01:07:26.190
right? Like there's, there's spectrum. There's

01:07:26.190 --> 01:07:28.929
like, there might be a little bit of good under

01:07:28.929 --> 01:07:31.969
them. Um, but I think most people are, are, I

01:07:31.969 --> 01:07:34.250
like, I have to believe that most people, I mean,

01:07:34.269 --> 01:07:35.829
I'm like, I don't know if I'm as far as Noam

01:07:35.829 --> 01:07:38.449
Chomsky where like everybody's like, you know,

01:07:38.449 --> 01:07:40.869
everybody needs their best self and it's these

01:07:40.869 --> 01:07:43.650
institutions that kind of beat them down. I don't

01:07:43.650 --> 01:07:47.119
know. I think that. I'm on the personal responsibility

01:07:47.119 --> 01:07:49.280
side, too, and I'm sure he is if you put him

01:07:49.280 --> 01:07:52.099
against the wall with it. But I think that it.

01:07:54.920 --> 01:07:57.579
You see people giving homeless people money,

01:07:57.639 --> 01:07:59.800
and there's no reason they have to do that, right?

01:07:59.920 --> 01:08:04.000
So I think that everybody's kind of good. It's

01:08:04.000 --> 01:08:07.519
just that you get guarded. You try to hide that

01:08:07.519 --> 01:08:09.639
part of you. It's kind of considered a weakness

01:08:09.639 --> 01:08:11.619
sometimes unless it's not in a situation like

01:08:11.619 --> 01:08:13.179
you where you're a professional and you do it

01:08:13.179 --> 01:08:15.719
for a living. I think there's a lot of reasons

01:08:15.719 --> 01:08:18.560
that people aren't just immediately good to each

01:08:18.560 --> 01:08:22.510
other all the time. Yeah. And what I see is that

01:08:22.510 --> 01:08:24.770
middle group where they just need to be led.

01:08:24.909 --> 01:08:26.770
And I don't mean that ever in a patronizing way.

01:08:26.869 --> 01:08:28.970
Just the first person to say, hey, let's all

01:08:28.970 --> 01:08:31.390
pick this car up and get this person that just

01:08:31.390 --> 01:08:33.149
got run over or whatever. And you see videos

01:08:33.149 --> 01:08:35.670
of that all the time. So it's just a shame that

01:08:35.670 --> 01:08:37.770
some of the shitbags of the world seem to get

01:08:37.770 --> 01:08:41.079
so much airtime. Well, that's human nature too,

01:08:41.140 --> 01:08:42.520
right? Because that's entertainment. And that's

01:08:42.520 --> 01:08:44.180
what I learned with MMA, right? Like it doesn't

01:08:44.180 --> 01:08:46.319
have to do with anything. People like to listen

01:08:46.319 --> 01:08:48.520
to them for whatever reason. Again, there's a

01:08:48.520 --> 01:08:51.039
lot of very psychological stuff that's over my

01:08:51.039 --> 01:08:54.359
head, but I think that that's entertainment.

01:08:54.500 --> 01:08:56.579
That's all that is. Yeah. Now, what do you think

01:08:56.579 --> 01:09:01.100
of the WWE -esque theatrics that have kind of...

01:09:02.079 --> 01:09:05.439
become part of the landscape of of some of the

01:09:05.439 --> 01:09:08.520
mma press conferences well i think it's super

01:09:08.520 --> 01:09:10.500
important like you have to remember what is the

01:09:10.500 --> 01:09:12.840
purpose of this and i i don't remember the interview

01:09:12.840 --> 01:09:14.699
that i talked about this but one of the books

01:09:14.699 --> 01:09:16.880
that changed my real perspective on it was that

01:09:16.880 --> 01:09:19.859
trickster makes this world um it's a venting

01:09:20.460 --> 01:09:22.819
It is. It is. I mean, if you want to go deeper,

01:09:22.840 --> 01:09:24.720
if I'm sure it's all mortality denial. Right.

01:09:24.779 --> 01:09:26.359
Like we're all know we're going to die. So we're

01:09:26.359 --> 01:09:28.479
trying to fill up the space in between that time

01:09:28.479 --> 01:09:32.180
to do other stuff. I get that you could baseline

01:09:32.180 --> 01:09:35.199
that. But I think that it's it. You have so many

01:09:35.199 --> 01:09:37.479
complex emotions when you're dealing with entertainment.

01:09:38.100 --> 01:09:42.289
And one of them that that offers. you is the

01:09:42.289 --> 01:09:44.970
old you remember the old days in a movie when

01:09:44.970 --> 01:09:47.329
the bad guy came on like you really hated the

01:09:47.329 --> 01:09:50.229
bad guy like you were allowed in that space to

01:09:50.229 --> 01:09:52.850
feel actual hatred like you saw what this guy

01:09:52.850 --> 01:09:56.630
was doing and you did not like the bad guy and

01:09:56.630 --> 01:09:59.270
now obviously that with the the moral kind of

01:09:59.270 --> 01:10:02.670
complexity the bad guy now is sometimes bad and

01:10:02.670 --> 01:10:04.550
parts of them good i mean it's like hyper realistic

01:10:04.550 --> 01:10:06.630
and not realistic at all at the same time which

01:10:06.630 --> 01:10:09.710
is always funny to me but uh I think that you

01:10:09.710 --> 01:10:13.710
need to just have a space where you let that

01:10:13.710 --> 01:10:17.609
out, where you vent it out. And so I see a lot

01:10:17.609 --> 01:10:19.409
of that at MMA, which is why I don't bother like

01:10:19.409 --> 01:10:22.430
reading comments or anything, because it's it's

01:10:22.430 --> 01:10:25.189
that person's angry and they need to express

01:10:25.189 --> 01:10:27.670
that anger somewhere. And this is where they

01:10:27.670 --> 01:10:29.949
choose to do it. They pay money to watch people

01:10:29.949 --> 01:10:32.510
fight to be inspired. But then also just like

01:10:32.510 --> 01:10:36.050
I do you hear the booze and the hatred and the.

01:10:37.470 --> 01:10:41.569
And that that venting has to happen like and

01:10:41.569 --> 01:10:44.529
you can do it in healthy ways, like through the

01:10:44.529 --> 01:10:46.649
martial arts, but we're just not there as a society.

01:10:46.729 --> 01:10:48.470
Right. Like it's this is the way that we have

01:10:48.470 --> 01:10:52.789
decided before Lent. You have Mardi Gras, right?

01:10:52.850 --> 01:10:55.229
Like you have to blow off all of this steam so

01:10:55.229 --> 01:10:58.050
that you can be a decent human being. And I think

01:10:58.050 --> 01:11:01.090
that that is that's what wrestling figured out.

01:11:01.449 --> 01:11:03.590
Professional wrestling figured that out because

01:11:03.590 --> 01:11:06.260
there used to be a lot of. actual like catch

01:11:06.260 --> 01:11:09.500
matches catches catch can matches and but those

01:11:09.500 --> 01:11:11.520
don't go to script like the bad guy would win

01:11:11.520 --> 01:11:13.260
and leave everybody grumpy you know what i mean

01:11:13.260 --> 01:11:16.260
like so it's much better to have it be a uh have

01:11:16.260 --> 01:11:19.100
a theatrical uh component to it because people

01:11:19.100 --> 01:11:22.140
watch fights some people like you have been lifelong

01:11:22.140 --> 01:11:24.479
martial artists and you watch fights so you appreciate

01:11:24.479 --> 01:11:27.510
what's happening Right. Like you watch it like

01:11:27.510 --> 01:11:29.609
a football fan watches a football game. They're

01:11:29.609 --> 01:11:31.869
like, wow, did you see the way he did this play

01:11:31.869 --> 01:11:33.890
to that play? That's how you watch it. But most

01:11:33.890 --> 01:11:36.689
people watch MMA to be inspired. They want to

01:11:36.689 --> 01:11:39.430
watch fighting to be like, wow, that guy, he

01:11:39.430 --> 01:11:41.689
was so beaten down and he didn't give up and

01:11:41.689 --> 01:11:43.210
he came back. And you see, because when people

01:11:43.210 --> 01:11:45.949
say good fights, they don't talk about technically

01:11:45.949 --> 01:11:48.430
shutting somebody down, although they can. But

01:11:48.430 --> 01:11:50.510
it's very, very obvious, right? Like they just

01:11:50.510 --> 01:11:52.029
run through you. They get in the mouth. They

01:11:52.029 --> 01:11:54.189
beat you down. Oh, that was a good fight because

01:11:54.189 --> 01:11:56.979
they saw. You know, this total dominance thing.

01:11:57.039 --> 01:11:58.819
So that's that's the inspiration to dominate.

01:11:58.979 --> 01:12:00.239
Right. But they also have the inspiration to

01:12:00.239 --> 01:12:03.279
be brave. It's it's inspirational much more than

01:12:03.279 --> 01:12:05.039
it's technical. And then there are a lot of fans

01:12:05.039 --> 01:12:06.859
that really like both. Right. Like that they

01:12:06.859 --> 01:12:09.340
like both. But I would say that by and large,

01:12:09.439 --> 01:12:12.239
my experience with the most vocal fans are the

01:12:12.239 --> 01:12:14.359
ones that feel like they have to vent something.

01:12:14.600 --> 01:12:17.899
So I don't see it's a bad way at all. I used

01:12:17.899 --> 01:12:20.140
to be like annoyed by it. Like, what do you mean

01:12:20.140 --> 01:12:21.859
this isn't a beautiful fight? Like, do you see

01:12:21.859 --> 01:12:23.659
what it but now I like, oh, I understand. OK,

01:12:23.800 --> 01:12:26.800
I get it now. Yeah, I just love to line up all

01:12:26.800 --> 01:12:30.239
the ones that call these MMA stars pussies for

01:12:30.239 --> 01:12:32.340
cowards because they didn't fight someone and

01:12:32.340 --> 01:12:34.699
just line them up in the cage. Well, right. Because

01:12:34.699 --> 01:12:37.479
that's not the point. They don't actually think

01:12:37.479 --> 01:12:39.659
that they are that. Or if they do, they're just

01:12:39.659 --> 01:12:41.899
projecting, right? They just want – there's this

01:12:41.899 --> 01:12:43.899
anger inside of them and they have to – because

01:12:43.899 --> 01:12:45.460
what kind of a fan you are is what kind of a

01:12:45.460 --> 01:12:48.819
person you are. Like a fan is like a view – like

01:12:48.819 --> 01:12:50.760
how a fighter is a view into the soul. Like you

01:12:50.760 --> 01:12:52.739
know how brave the guy is if he's all cut up

01:12:52.739 --> 01:12:55.750
and he fights back. that person there that bravery

01:12:55.750 --> 01:12:58.449
exists well you have that exact same mirror back

01:12:58.449 --> 01:13:00.810
on the fan if you're a fan that's angry and yelling

01:13:00.810 --> 01:13:03.829
all the time then i see into who you are you

01:13:03.829 --> 01:13:05.869
have this anger in you and man i hope that you

01:13:05.869 --> 01:13:08.010
figure out a way to get around it um if you're

01:13:08.010 --> 01:13:10.770
like a There's so many fans that are super positive,

01:13:10.850 --> 01:13:12.729
cool people, man. They come up and like, I love

01:13:12.729 --> 01:13:14.609
your fighters and what you did. And, or the,

01:13:14.630 --> 01:13:16.149
to the fire, I watch them to the fighters and

01:13:16.149 --> 01:13:18.510
say, man, really appreciate you. That was so

01:13:18.510 --> 01:13:19.810
cool. You know what I mean? And those are the

01:13:19.810 --> 01:13:21.729
kinds of guys that are grateful about life. And,

01:13:21.729 --> 01:13:23.850
you know, they want to express that, that gratitude

01:13:23.850 --> 01:13:26.189
as well. They're venting that gratitude. So it's,

01:13:26.189 --> 01:13:29.470
uh, I think it's such an important element to

01:13:29.470 --> 01:13:33.689
have a theatrical kind of something to talk about

01:13:33.689 --> 01:13:35.569
with your friends. It's a social, it's a cohesive

01:13:35.569 --> 01:13:37.329
social thing, right? Like you can talk about.

01:13:38.039 --> 01:13:40.560
You go to the proverbial water cooler. So it

01:13:40.560 --> 01:13:43.119
brings everybody together witnessing the sport.

01:13:43.319 --> 01:13:45.159
It's not something that you do by yourself because

01:13:45.159 --> 01:13:46.819
you're talking to other people with it. So I

01:13:46.819 --> 01:13:48.600
think there's a lot of positivities, even in

01:13:48.600 --> 01:13:51.600
the negative fan stuff. Yeah, brilliant. Well,

01:13:51.619 --> 01:13:53.979
and so we talk about theatrics from I just wanted

01:13:53.979 --> 01:13:56.470
to. To touch one other topic before we go to

01:13:56.470 --> 01:13:58.789
some closing questions, the other side of the

01:13:58.789 --> 01:14:02.210
spectrum for me, unless it was a complete act

01:14:02.210 --> 01:14:05.510
that has been, you know, withheld for a decade,

01:14:06.149 --> 01:14:10.569
Georges St -Pierre was always, to me, the epitome

01:14:10.569 --> 01:14:12.729
of a martial artist and the epitome of a gentleman

01:14:12.729 --> 01:14:15.909
as well. What was your experience training him

01:14:15.909 --> 01:14:21.229
and especially when he started seemingly learning?

01:14:21.979 --> 01:14:24.899
A style that he wasn't even that well versed

01:14:24.899 --> 01:14:27.380
in and then ending up beating an expert in that

01:14:27.380 --> 01:14:31.880
in the cage Yeah, yeah George is that he's a

01:14:31.880 --> 01:14:35.439
martial artist like George fights But he's and

01:14:35.439 --> 01:14:39.100
he loves the lifestyle of a martial artist But,

01:14:39.119 --> 01:14:41.420
uh, he is, he is one of the most pure martial

01:14:41.420 --> 01:14:43.539
artists I've ever met. He loves, if he ever got

01:14:43.539 --> 01:14:45.760
caught with something in practice or he's training

01:14:45.760 --> 01:14:47.319
in jujitsu or whatever, he would always be so

01:14:47.319 --> 01:14:49.619
excited and want to know how you, you know, how

01:14:49.619 --> 01:14:51.819
did this person catch George? How did he, how

01:14:51.819 --> 01:14:53.439
did you get me in that submission hold? And you'd

01:14:53.439 --> 01:14:55.159
have to learn it right after his fights. He'd

01:14:55.159 --> 01:14:57.399
be like, what did, what did I do wrong? Why couldn't

01:14:57.399 --> 01:14:59.420
I finish this? Like immediately after his fights,

01:14:59.460 --> 01:15:02.359
he just loved the martial arts so much. Um, so

01:15:02.359 --> 01:15:05.500
to, to, it was such a, an honor and a pleasure.

01:15:05.539 --> 01:15:09.159
Uh, to, to be around him for, for a lot of those

01:15:09.159 --> 01:15:13.520
fights. Um, he, he really exemplified, he, he

01:15:13.520 --> 01:15:15.319
did not, he was not putting on an act. He was

01:15:15.319 --> 01:15:18.340
not Muhammad Ali. Um, he was just George. He,

01:15:18.340 --> 01:15:21.680
he was very honest and he, uh, he always said

01:15:21.680 --> 01:15:24.300
what he felt and yeah, he was, uh, I was always

01:15:24.300 --> 01:15:26.119
super impressed and still am super impressed

01:15:26.119 --> 01:15:28.319
by him. Yeah. Yeah. I was asked for inspiration

01:15:28.319 --> 01:15:31.300
to watch us for sure. Um, all right, well then

01:15:31.300 --> 01:15:33.100
I want to transition to some closing questions

01:15:33.100 --> 01:15:36.659
so I can let you go. You mentioned, uh, Is it

01:15:36.659 --> 01:15:39.199
Trickster Makes the World? Yeah, Trickster Makes

01:15:39.199 --> 01:15:41.840
the World. Makes the World. Okay. Are there any

01:15:41.840 --> 01:15:44.119
other books that you love to recommend? You've

01:15:44.119 --> 01:15:47.340
already given me one. On which subject? On any

01:15:47.340 --> 01:15:49.819
subject. So the most influential book that I've

01:15:49.819 --> 01:15:52.159
ever read is Gertl Escher Bach by Hofstädler.

01:15:52.720 --> 01:15:55.899
That is the that book had the most influence

01:15:55.899 --> 01:15:58.260
on the way I come at the martial arts by trying

01:15:58.260 --> 01:16:00.279
to look at these kind of ubiquitous underlying

01:16:00.279 --> 01:16:02.579
strategical principles that govern everything.

01:16:02.699 --> 01:16:04.960
Also, the limits of reductionism through Goodell's

01:16:04.960 --> 01:16:09.939
kind of unreachable truths. Yeah, there's a lot

01:16:09.939 --> 01:16:13.039
there. Systems on medicine. Anyway, there's a

01:16:13.039 --> 01:16:17.970
lot there. beyond brilliant. And that book for

01:16:17.970 --> 01:16:21.229
me is kind of his magnum opus. It's a brilliant,

01:16:21.430 --> 01:16:24.930
brilliant book. Also, I was raised by my mentor,

01:16:25.170 --> 01:16:27.649
Jim Dudley, who I didn't mention, but he was

01:16:27.649 --> 01:16:28.930
a guy that taught me. He would take me out in

01:16:28.930 --> 01:16:31.710
the deserts walking for days at a time, teaching

01:16:31.710 --> 01:16:34.810
me about math and science and philosophy and

01:16:34.810 --> 01:16:37.930
stuff. And he's a huge Bach fan. My father and

01:16:37.930 --> 01:16:42.020
mother are Beethoven and my... My mentor, Jim

01:16:42.020 --> 01:16:45.800
Dudley, is a Bach guy, so I was always very conflicted

01:16:45.800 --> 01:16:48.180
as to who was better. Anyway, I'm nerding out

01:16:48.180 --> 01:16:50.439
on you. But and of course, anybody that doesn't

01:16:50.439 --> 01:16:52.220
know who Gurdell is, go study him right now.

01:16:52.239 --> 01:16:54.100
Talk about one of the smartest human beings to

01:16:54.100 --> 01:16:57.920
ever walk on planet Earth. And Escher obviously

01:16:57.920 --> 01:16:59.960
became my favorite artist after reading that

01:16:59.960 --> 01:17:02.720
book and how they all kind of do the same thing

01:17:02.720 --> 01:17:06.819
in their own way. It's a brilliant book. Excellent.

01:17:06.880 --> 01:17:08.960
Actually, funny enough, speaking of classical

01:17:08.960 --> 01:17:11.880
musicians, my now ex -wife, my son's mother.

01:17:13.270 --> 01:17:15.229
I got to choose his first name, which is Ty,

01:17:15.369 --> 01:17:16.649
and she got to choose his middle name, which

01:17:16.649 --> 01:17:20.130
is Amadeus. She's a huge Mozart fan. I don't

01:17:20.130 --> 01:17:21.649
know how it's going to serve him later in life.

01:17:22.630 --> 01:17:25.250
That's good. No, that's great. I'm a huge Mozart

01:17:25.250 --> 01:17:28.689
fan. Again, me and my dad and my brother feel

01:17:28.689 --> 01:17:31.029
that Mozart is a little too airy and flowery

01:17:31.029 --> 01:17:33.689
from them. I'm like, you guys are crazy. Mozart's

01:17:33.689 --> 01:17:36.909
the man. Anyway, we'll do another hour on that,

01:17:36.930 --> 01:17:39.470
so we probably shouldn't. All right. Well, then

01:17:39.470 --> 01:17:40.909
the same question, but a movie. Are there any

01:17:40.909 --> 01:17:43.189
movies that you love? Oh yeah. I have two, two

01:17:43.189 --> 01:17:45.170
equally favorite, uh, the sevens and they both

01:17:45.170 --> 01:17:47.409
have seven and weirdly, uh, the seven samurai,

01:17:47.489 --> 01:17:50.810
uh, is a, uh, great. There's so much happening

01:17:50.810 --> 01:17:52.970
in that movie as far as the martial spirit, like

01:17:52.970 --> 01:17:57.470
how to give back selflessly. Um, there's so many

01:17:57.470 --> 01:18:02.409
things I admire in that movie. And then The Seventh

01:18:02.409 --> 01:18:05.729
Seal, Bergman, with Max von Sydow in it. Holy

01:18:05.729 --> 01:18:09.510
cow. Another movie that has so much philosophy

01:18:09.510 --> 01:18:12.050
in it that you have to watch it like 12 times.

01:18:12.149 --> 01:18:13.869
And somebody like me, I have to watch it 24 times

01:18:13.869 --> 01:18:15.569
because I have to work twice as hard as somebody

01:18:15.569 --> 01:18:19.029
with normal intelligence. But it's just such

01:18:19.029 --> 01:18:22.229
an amazing movie that has so many little things

01:18:22.229 --> 01:18:25.289
that you missed, things that like, oh. And of

01:18:25.289 --> 01:18:29.090
course, it's well known for. playing chess with

01:18:29.090 --> 01:18:32.189
death that's the big thing but the ability to

01:18:32.189 --> 01:18:34.210
distract death while his friends get through

01:18:34.210 --> 01:18:37.689
like this so that that selflessness of uh sacrifice

01:18:37.689 --> 01:18:41.510
that uh that i find very uh very noble brilliant

01:18:41.510 --> 01:18:43.550
yeah i think i've had seven samurai recommended

01:18:43.550 --> 01:18:46.310
before but not the uh seven seals so thank you

01:18:46.310 --> 01:18:49.350
for that yeah um next question is there a person

01:18:49.350 --> 01:18:51.630
you would recommend to come on this podcast as

01:18:51.630 --> 01:18:54.090
a guest to speak to the first responders military

01:18:54.090 --> 01:18:57.470
and associated professions of the world Holy

01:18:57.470 --> 01:19:04.689
cow. A lot of them. Yeah. Let me, boy, that's

01:19:04.689 --> 01:19:10.109
a, that's a deep pool. Yeah. Let me – you know

01:19:10.109 --> 01:19:12.789
who you should talk to is a guy that's probably

01:19:12.789 --> 01:19:14.710
one of the most brilliant police officers I've

01:19:14.710 --> 01:19:17.710
ever met, Rob DeBuck. And he was actually the

01:19:17.710 --> 01:19:19.930
guy responsible for pulling me when I was a kid

01:19:19.930 --> 01:19:22.869
into working with the Albuquerque Police Department.

01:19:22.989 --> 01:19:26.430
He's a legend. And he was in the blood and guts

01:19:26.430 --> 01:19:29.710
era and he's now in this very like super de -escalating

01:19:29.710 --> 01:19:33.090
era as well. And he has – he's one – he is the

01:19:33.090 --> 01:19:35.640
most brilliant. police leaders i've ever seen

01:19:35.640 --> 01:19:37.800
in my life like the things that he would do were

01:19:37.800 --> 01:19:40.039
so anti -intuitive and then made total sense

01:19:40.039 --> 01:19:42.920
and would like uh just change communities he's

01:19:42.920 --> 01:19:44.739
done so much good rob de buck would be a great

01:19:44.739 --> 01:19:47.800
guy for that excellent brilliant thank you all

01:19:47.800 --> 01:19:50.000
right then the last question before we talk about

01:19:50.000 --> 01:19:52.260
where we can find you what do you do to decompress

01:19:52.260 --> 01:19:56.390
when you're not coaching Well, in the immediate,

01:19:56.510 --> 01:19:59.010
I'll either play video games that pull me out

01:19:59.010 --> 01:20:01.569
into a different world. I will read books. And

01:20:01.569 --> 01:20:04.170
then if I have time, I go ghost towning, which

01:20:04.170 --> 01:20:07.369
is where I go find old towns in New Mexico that

01:20:07.369 --> 01:20:10.010
have been long abandoned and do research on them

01:20:10.010 --> 01:20:11.390
and find out what they were and then go find

01:20:11.390 --> 01:20:14.130
them and just kind of poke around. I don't take

01:20:14.130 --> 01:20:15.989
anything or, you know, it should all stay where

01:20:15.989 --> 01:20:18.970
it's at. But I find the towns and it's fun because

01:20:18.970 --> 01:20:20.789
you can backpack into them or you can drive into

01:20:20.789 --> 01:20:23.350
them and just you get to see a part of history

01:20:23.350 --> 01:20:24.810
that was very important. important to people

01:20:24.810 --> 01:20:27.489
at one time. And as now just, uh, you're watching

01:20:27.489 --> 01:20:29.229
nature reclaim it. So it's been a lot of fun.

01:20:29.250 --> 01:20:31.310
I've been doing that since I was a kid. So it's

01:20:31.310 --> 01:20:34.350
been, uh, It's been a real joy and a pleasure

01:20:34.350 --> 01:20:37.050
to have that hobby. That's very unique. Yeah,

01:20:37.109 --> 01:20:40.090
I know some of the images of the abandoned shopping

01:20:40.090 --> 01:20:42.210
malls where nature's taking it back and all these

01:20:42.210 --> 01:20:45.770
trees growing inside. Yeah, isn't it crazy? So

01:20:45.770 --> 01:20:48.109
yeah, having these old towns out here. In New

01:20:48.109 --> 01:20:50.250
Mexico, we have old Hispanic towns from like

01:20:50.250 --> 01:20:52.630
the 1600s. Then we have when the Anglos started

01:20:52.630 --> 01:20:56.649
coming in the 1800s and then modern stuff. Yeah,

01:20:56.710 --> 01:20:58.710
it's just crazy. The mining towns from like the

01:20:58.710 --> 01:21:01.369
1950s that have been abandoned. It's a lot of

01:21:01.369 --> 01:21:03.050
fun. out here right now are you seeing any of

01:21:03.050 --> 01:21:06.869
the the inter um oh my god what am i talking

01:21:06.869 --> 01:21:09.850
about the uh i'm blanking on the name now the

01:21:09.850 --> 01:21:12.689
border so that the inter -border violence from

01:21:12.689 --> 01:21:15.439
from the drug trade where you are No, because

01:21:15.439 --> 01:21:17.060
we're kind of a pass through. Right. There's

01:21:17.060 --> 01:21:18.840
not a lot of because we're such a poor state.

01:21:19.319 --> 01:21:21.699
There's not a lot of I mean, there is some, but

01:21:21.699 --> 01:21:24.260
mostly if they're going to move drugs and stuff,

01:21:24.380 --> 01:21:26.119
they're going to they do it through us because

01:21:26.119 --> 01:21:28.800
of the big I interchange, which is where I -25

01:21:28.800 --> 01:21:31.819
and I -40 meet. So, you know, you want to go

01:21:31.819 --> 01:21:34.680
up to Denver, over to Phoenix or Dallas. But

01:21:34.680 --> 01:21:37.199
New Mexico itself, I mean, there is obviously

01:21:37.199 --> 01:21:39.960
some, but mostly it's that we're a transitory.

01:21:40.119 --> 01:21:43.159
They're trying to move the drugs through us into

01:21:43.159 --> 01:21:46.020
bigger markets. Okay, well, good. Yeah, that's

01:21:46.020 --> 01:21:47.800
something I've talked about a lot on the podcast.

01:21:48.739 --> 01:21:51.300
There's countries like Switzerland and Portugal.

01:21:51.359 --> 01:21:52.899
I actually interviewed the guy that did it in

01:21:52.899 --> 01:21:55.779
Portugal that have decriminalized. Drug use and

01:21:55.779 --> 01:21:57.460
it basically cut the head off the snake of the

01:21:57.460 --> 01:22:00.720
legal drug trade. Absolutely. I couldn't agree

01:22:00.720 --> 01:22:02.939
more. And definitely we're moving that direction.

01:22:03.819 --> 01:22:06.699
It's just mostly because we have so many violent

01:22:06.699 --> 01:22:08.739
people here. We need to get the people with marijuana

01:22:08.739 --> 01:22:11.100
problems, in my opinion, kind of out of jail

01:22:11.100 --> 01:22:13.359
and get these violent criminals off the street.

01:22:13.819 --> 01:22:15.979
Absolutely. And the human traffickers, like we

01:22:15.979 --> 01:22:18.949
said. Yeah, those guys. Yeah. Brilliant. All

01:22:18.949 --> 01:22:20.310
right. Well, Greg, I just want to say thank you

01:22:20.310 --> 01:22:22.170
so much. It's been a fascinating conversation.

01:22:22.409 --> 01:22:24.149
I know you're extremely busy, so I really do

01:22:24.149 --> 01:22:26.149
appreciate you being so generous with your time

01:22:26.149 --> 01:22:28.289
today. Oh, no worries. Thanks for having me on,

01:22:28.329 --> 01:22:29.250
boss. It was a lot of fun.