WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.740 This episode is sponsored by TeamBuildr, yet 00:00:02.740 --> 00:00:04.860 another company that's doing great things for 00:00:04.860 --> 00:00:07.679 the first responder community. As a strength 00:00:07.679 --> 00:00:09.960 and conditioning coach myself who also trains 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:13.140 tactical athletes, dissemination of wellness 00:00:13.140 --> 00:00:15.320 information is one of the biggest challenges. 00:00:15.980 --> 00:00:18.519 Now TeamBuildr is the premier strength and conditioning 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:21.539 software for tactical athletes and there are 00:00:21.539 --> 00:00:24.839 several features that really impress me. Firstly, 00:00:24.920 --> 00:00:27.780 there is a full exercise library. So you, the 00:00:27.780 --> 00:00:29.940 personal trainer, does not have to create that 00:00:29.940 --> 00:00:33.060 within your own department. 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To me, it's imperative 00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:05.540 that we as a profession start tracking our people 00:01:05.540 --> 00:01:09.439 from day one and then over the full span of their 00:01:09.439 --> 00:01:12.659 career, therefore catching potential wellness 00:01:12.659 --> 00:01:16.200 issues and injuries before they happen. Now, 00:01:16.219 --> 00:01:18.439 if you want to try Team Builder, they are offering 00:01:18.439 --> 00:01:20.760 you, the audience of the Behind the Shield podcast, 00:01:21.180 --> 00:01:25.379 a free 14 -day trial to experience all of the 00:01:25.379 --> 00:01:27.900 features. And if you want to take a deeper dive 00:01:27.900 --> 00:01:32.439 into Team Builder, listen to episode 1032 with 00:01:32.439 --> 00:01:36.459 Melissa Mercado or go to teambuildr .com. And 00:01:36.459 --> 00:01:37.980 I'll spell that to you because it's not as you 00:01:37.980 --> 00:01:44.670 think, T -E -A -M -B -U -I -L -D -R .com. Welcome 00:01:44.670 --> 00:01:46.390 to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, 00:01:46.409 --> 00:01:48.170 my name is James Gearing, and this week it is 00:01:48.170 --> 00:01:50.829 my absolute honor to welcome on the show Air 00:01:50.829 --> 00:01:54.829 Force veteran and author Matthew Coleman. Now, 00:01:54.849 --> 00:01:57.310 amongst many of his assignments, Matthew was 00:01:57.310 --> 00:02:01.530 the deputy commander of the 380th Air Expeditionary 00:02:01.530 --> 00:02:04.189 Wing, who were tasked with the mass evacuation 00:02:04.189 --> 00:02:07.750 from Afghanistan prior to the withdrawal. So 00:02:07.750 --> 00:02:10.590 we discuss a host of topics, from his journey 00:02:10.590 --> 00:02:13.689 into the military, the truth behind the Space 00:02:13.689 --> 00:02:17.270 Force, the horrors of war, the boots -on -the 00:02:17.270 --> 00:02:20.750 -ground perspective of that evacuation, the ripple 00:02:20.750 --> 00:02:23.770 effect of that deployment, catharsis through 00:02:23.770 --> 00:02:27.069 writing, and so much more. Now, before we get 00:02:27.069 --> 00:02:29.270 to this incredible conversation, as I say every 00:02:29.270 --> 00:02:32.229 week, please just take a moment. Go to whichever 00:02:32.229 --> 00:02:35.150 app you listen to this on, subscribe to the show, 00:02:35.409 --> 00:02:39.330 leave feedback, and leave a rating. Every single 00:02:39.330 --> 00:02:42.310 five -star rating truly does elevate this podcast, 00:02:42.590 --> 00:02:44.810 therefore making it easier for others to find. 00:02:44.969 --> 00:02:49.349 And this is a free library of well over 1 ,000 00:02:49.349 --> 00:02:52.789 episodes now. So all I ask in return is that 00:02:52.789 --> 00:02:55.530 you help share these incredible men and women's 00:02:55.530 --> 00:02:58.889 stories so I can get them to every single person 00:02:58.889 --> 00:03:02.449 on planet Earth who needs to hear them. So with 00:03:02.449 --> 00:03:06.849 that being said, I introduce to you Matthew Coleman. 00:03:07.129 --> 00:03:28.740 Enjoy. Well, Matt, I want to start by saying 00:03:28.740 --> 00:03:31.319 two things. Firstly, thank you to our mutual 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:33.919 friend, Colin Broderick, for making the connection. 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:36.560 And secondly, I want to welcome you onto the 00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:39.300 Behind the Shield podcast today. I appreciate 00:03:39.300 --> 00:03:41.979 it. It's an honor to be here. So where on planet 00:03:41.979 --> 00:03:45.879 Earth are we finding you this afternoon? So this 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:49.360 afternoon, I am just outside the nation's capital 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:53.500 in Arlington, Virginia. Beautiful. Well, there's 00:03:53.500 --> 00:03:55.520 obviously a reason why you found yourself located 00:03:55.520 --> 00:03:57.219 there. I would love to start, though, at the 00:03:57.219 --> 00:03:59.900 very beginning of your timeline. So tell me where 00:03:59.900 --> 00:04:01.740 you were born and tell me a little bit about 00:04:01.740 --> 00:04:04.060 your family dynamic, what your parents did, how 00:04:04.060 --> 00:04:08.580 many siblings. OK, I was probably one of the 00:04:08.580 --> 00:04:11.379 very few people that were actually born in Daytona 00:04:11.379 --> 00:04:16.019 Beach, Florida. And from there, family moved 00:04:16.019 --> 00:04:18.660 up to Illinois where I have a lot of other family. 00:04:18.740 --> 00:04:22.519 My sister was born and. My dad was Air Force. 00:04:22.620 --> 00:04:26.120 We were in England. From there, California, Colorado, 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:31.420 back to Florida for, holy cow, mid -70s through 00:04:31.420 --> 00:04:36.500 early 80s. And from there to South Dakota, where 00:04:36.500 --> 00:04:38.620 I finished high school, family couldn't afford 00:04:38.620 --> 00:04:42.819 college. So I knew I wanted to do a little bit 00:04:42.819 --> 00:04:45.680 more with my life than be on the management team 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:49.019 of a couple of pizza huts there. in South Dakota. 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:53.500 So I enlisted in the Air Force and was fortunate 00:04:53.500 --> 00:04:55.800 enough to get into Satellite Command and Control. 00:04:56.019 --> 00:04:59.800 That was back in 1990. Talk to me about the changes 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:02.519 you've seen in Daytona Beach. I know at one point 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:05.240 it was quite the destination. I know now having 00:05:05.240 --> 00:05:07.639 friends that work with Daytona Beach Fire that, 00:05:07.639 --> 00:05:11.560 you know. It's not quite as glitzy as it maybe 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:14.279 once was. So what have you seen through someone 00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:17.120 who was born and bred by that lens that you've 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:23.620 got? So Daytona Beach, yes, it has had its ebbs 00:05:23.620 --> 00:05:28.319 and flows for my alma mater, Embry -Riddle Aeronautical 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:30.720 University there in Daytona Beach. I remember 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:33.819 that used to be a bunch of shacks out there. 00:05:34.430 --> 00:05:38.670 Now, from the time I graduated there in 1998 00:05:38.670 --> 00:05:41.810 until now, Embry -Riddle, that part of town, 00:05:41.970 --> 00:05:45.250 is unrecognizable. It's such a phenomenal campus. 00:05:47.350 --> 00:05:51.430 If I hadn't gone there since I graduated in 1998, 00:05:51.689 --> 00:05:54.389 I wouldn't even recognize it. It's phenomenal. 00:05:54.750 --> 00:06:00.589 The racetrack has exploded. Everything is raced 00:06:00.589 --> 00:06:04.879 there. The entire racetrack with NASCAR. It's 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:08.680 done nothing but go up. They've done a lot of 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:13.060 nice building around Daytona Beach. I know for 00:06:13.060 --> 00:06:15.360 a while there, if you think through the 80s and 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:20.240 90s, that was the spring break hub. But then 00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:26.399 that flowed on to other places. But I know there 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:29.240 were times that it was rough, but it has gotten 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:34.000 better. They are... I'm neutral on it. So with 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:36.959 Bike Week, I understand there's some significant 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:40.220 changes going on with that. That Main Street 00:06:40.220 --> 00:06:45.000 is not going to be what it used to be. So I obviously 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:48.540 don't know the inner circle decision making on 00:06:48.540 --> 00:06:50.759 that, but it seems as though Bike Week may not 00:06:50.759 --> 00:06:53.759 be as glamorous as it used to be. It may be going 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:56.660 the way of the spring breaks that I remember 00:06:56.660 --> 00:07:00.360 from the 80s and early 90s. It's grown in so 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:03.459 many ways. And if you hadn't seen it in quite 00:07:03.459 --> 00:07:06.060 a while, you definitely wouldn't recognize it. 00:07:06.100 --> 00:07:08.480 But still a great town, a lot of great people 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:12.060 there. I went to a concert called Welcome to 00:07:12.060 --> 00:07:14.459 Rockville, which used to be in Jacksonville, 00:07:14.500 --> 00:07:17.579 hence the name. And they kind of outgrew Metropolitan 00:07:17.579 --> 00:07:19.879 Park. And it's a shame because it was a beautiful 00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:22.759 park by the river, you know, and you had all 00:07:22.759 --> 00:07:24.800 these different stages and hills and areas and 00:07:24.800 --> 00:07:27.160 you could sit under trees. And then they moved 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:29.230 to Daytona. when you're in the middle of the 00:07:29.230 --> 00:07:31.670 racetrack where there's no shade, everything's 00:07:31.670 --> 00:07:34.069 echoing off all the stands. And yeah, I went 00:07:34.069 --> 00:07:36.449 there once. We may go there again, but I was 00:07:36.449 --> 00:07:39.110 kind of sad. I'm not a big race fan, so that's 00:07:39.110 --> 00:07:41.449 not what would take me to Daytona. But yeah, 00:07:41.589 --> 00:07:44.910 when you're from a place like that, you're either, 00:07:45.069 --> 00:07:47.889 there's very little middle ground. There's two 00:07:47.889 --> 00:07:51.930 camps. You love it or you could do without it. 00:07:52.449 --> 00:07:55.660 I've got a lot of family there. my parents that 00:07:55.660 --> 00:07:57.860 are big race fans and they've gone to everything 00:07:57.860 --> 00:08:05.439 and i it's amazing the the engineering behind 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:09.220 it the logistics behind it uh and it it drives 00:08:09.220 --> 00:08:13.459 my mother up the wall the one daytona 500 i went 00:08:13.459 --> 00:08:18.879 to i believe in spring 97 is the one dale earnhardt 00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:23.350 won the only one he won And you didn't deserve 00:08:23.350 --> 00:08:26.689 to be there to see that. Maybe you were the reason 00:08:26.689 --> 00:08:28.310 he won. Maybe you should have gone tomorrow. 00:08:28.569 --> 00:08:32.330 Maybe. Well, as you said about Embry -Riddle 00:08:32.330 --> 00:08:36.049 as well, my son ran track for his high school 00:08:36.049 --> 00:08:38.850 and they went to, I forget which, it was regionals 00:08:38.850 --> 00:08:41.590 or one of those ones. And it was at Embry -Riddle 00:08:41.590 --> 00:08:43.789 and the sports facility there was beautiful. 00:08:43.990 --> 00:08:49.019 The ROTC assault course was beautiful. Let's 00:08:49.019 --> 00:08:52.720 talk about that. Talk to me about your career 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:55.019 aspirations when you were younger in the school 00:08:55.019 --> 00:08:57.460 age and how that took you to Embry -Riddle in 00:08:57.460 --> 00:09:02.919 the first place. So I was the guy that always 00:09:02.919 --> 00:09:07.379 had his eyes looking upward at the planes. And 00:09:07.379 --> 00:09:11.460 I had always been fascinated with aircraft and 00:09:11.460 --> 00:09:14.960 wanting to be a pilot. When I was in high school, 00:09:15.159 --> 00:09:19.169 I had gotten... a presidential nomination to 00:09:19.169 --> 00:09:22.730 the Naval Academy. But it's funny, when I was 00:09:22.730 --> 00:09:26.370 little, I had asthma, but I outgrew it. I could 00:09:26.370 --> 00:09:29.450 run till I dropped when I was in high school. 00:09:29.909 --> 00:09:33.669 And I remember when I was going to do my medical 00:09:33.669 --> 00:09:37.730 to get into the Naval Academy, excuse me, my 00:09:37.730 --> 00:09:41.070 parents, both of them said, if they ask you anything 00:09:41.070 --> 00:09:47.950 about asthma, say no. Young, bright -eyed, naive, 00:09:48.090 --> 00:09:52.529 perhaps. I definitely didn't have my 53 -year 00:09:52.529 --> 00:09:55.769 -old brain, but when I was doing the medical 00:09:55.769 --> 00:09:58.769 stuff, I was doing a questionnaire and it said, 00:09:58.830 --> 00:10:02.470 have you ever had asthma? Yes or no. But on fine 00:10:02.470 --> 00:10:05.210 print right below that question, it said, as 00:10:05.210 --> 00:10:07.590 long as you haven't had it past X birthday, I 00:10:07.590 --> 00:10:09.610 can't remember what the year was, you're fine. 00:10:10.710 --> 00:10:15.009 Well, my 53 -year -old retired colonel brain 00:10:15.009 --> 00:10:17.649 looks at that question and says, Well, if that's 00:10:17.649 --> 00:10:21.769 truly the case, then if you've had asthma, what 00:10:21.769 --> 00:10:25.029 was the last year you had it? It was purely a 00:10:25.029 --> 00:10:27.490 weeder question. And me being naive, I answered, 00:10:27.629 --> 00:10:29.649 well, it says I'm okay as long as I haven't had 00:10:29.649 --> 00:10:34.049 it past that. Yes. So I got disqualified. And 00:10:34.049 --> 00:10:38.850 I went into, I've promised myself, and I'm focusing 00:10:38.850 --> 00:10:41.570 really hard not to use swear words during this. 00:10:41.570 --> 00:10:43.169 You can, by the way, because I probably will. 00:10:43.850 --> 00:10:49.940 Okay. I will use the king of the bad words then, 00:10:50.059 --> 00:10:54.159 the Frankfurter word. To be quite honest, I went 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:56.480 into a fuck the world at that point because having 00:10:56.480 --> 00:11:00.080 lost that for something that was BS. And then 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:03.659 knowing my family couldn't afford college, then 00:11:03.659 --> 00:11:06.220 it was like, okay, I'm going to enlist in the 00:11:06.220 --> 00:11:08.980 Air Force. I got to get out of here. And then 00:11:08.980 --> 00:11:11.960 Air Force wasn't going to let me in for the same 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:15.409 thing. And luckily we had dug through my medical 00:11:15.409 --> 00:11:18.129 records with a doctor and found something. I 00:11:18.129 --> 00:11:20.710 mean, thank God when I was little, he just happened 00:11:20.710 --> 00:11:23.110 to write, yep, Pierce Matt's outgrown his asthma. 00:11:23.950 --> 00:11:27.250 Air Force said, come on in. And I explained that 00:11:27.250 --> 00:11:30.389 whole Naval Academy thing to him. And he just 00:11:30.389 --> 00:11:32.610 looked at me, goes, yeah, well, had you found 00:11:32.610 --> 00:11:35.070 that back then, you'd probably be finishing your 00:11:35.070 --> 00:11:38.450 freshman year of either the prep school or, you 00:11:38.450 --> 00:11:41.590 know, your plea beer at the Academy. So that 00:11:41.590 --> 00:11:43.649 threw me in, you know, when you're 18, you don't 00:11:43.649 --> 00:11:45.570 think fully straight. That threw me into more 00:11:45.570 --> 00:11:49.769 of a fuck the world type thing. So got in the 00:11:49.769 --> 00:11:55.529 Air Force and got into Space Command, which was 00:11:55.529 --> 00:11:57.830 only a couple, three years old at that point. 00:11:57.850 --> 00:12:01.669 And I thoroughly loved it. I was in four unique 00:12:01.669 --> 00:12:04.870 different space systems in six and a half years. 00:12:05.649 --> 00:12:09.960 Had me from Washington State. a four by two mile 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:12.639 Island in Alaska, all the way at the end of the 00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:15.779 illusion chain, England for a couple of years, 00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:19.620 California. But during that time, I still had 00:12:19.620 --> 00:12:24.379 that, that drive of, man, I want to fly. I want 00:12:24.379 --> 00:12:27.740 to fly. I started taking college classes, but 00:12:27.740 --> 00:12:30.399 you know, when you're that age, it's, I did work 00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:34.820 hard, but I also played really hard. I didn't 00:12:34.820 --> 00:12:37.080 have much rudder giving me directional control. 00:12:37.980 --> 00:12:40.500 And it's funny when I did all my mentoring, I've 00:12:40.500 --> 00:12:42.940 done a ton of mentoring. I love, cause I didn't 00:12:42.940 --> 00:12:46.000 have that when I was younger. And whenever I 00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:48.259 talked to the young airmen before I retired, 00:12:48.419 --> 00:12:51.480 I talked about a moment when I was at RAF Lake 00:12:51.480 --> 00:12:54.299 and Heath and they had a Popeye's there on base. 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:56.320 I don't know if they still have it. I was standing 00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:59.600 out front eating my three piece chicken strip 00:12:59.600 --> 00:13:03.700 with, you know, it's the spicy beans and rice 00:13:03.700 --> 00:13:07.269 watching F -15s doing touch and goes. And I was 00:13:07.269 --> 00:13:11.590 like, man, I wish I could do that. And I stopped 00:13:11.590 --> 00:13:15.610 for a second. And then I just thought, well, 00:13:15.730 --> 00:13:19.230 why can't I? And that's the day my head came 00:13:19.230 --> 00:13:21.929 out of my ass. And that's the day when I, when 00:13:21.929 --> 00:13:23.710 I would do all my mentoring, I called that the 00:13:23.710 --> 00:13:27.549 pop hurt around the world. So from that point, 00:13:27.590 --> 00:13:30.870 it was the, I would always say good luck telling 00:13:30.870 --> 00:13:36.740 me no, because that. Work hard, play hard ratio 00:13:36.740 --> 00:13:40.480 went more towards work hard. I got a lot more 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:44.320 directional control and I was taking classes 00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:47.820 like nobody's business. And then I was getting 00:13:47.820 --> 00:13:51.539 to where I had enough classes and I knew I wanted 00:13:51.539 --> 00:13:56.120 to apply for commissioning and hope to get the 00:13:56.120 --> 00:14:00.259 pilot training. And Embry -Riddle was always 00:14:00.259 --> 00:14:02.720 the natural choice because that's where my family 00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:06.179 is. And I was thinking of, okay, if I'm going 00:14:06.179 --> 00:14:09.259 to go from having a paycheck to being a student, 00:14:09.460 --> 00:14:12.500 what's going to be the most cost -efficient way 00:14:12.500 --> 00:14:14.840 of doing that? Daytona was always the way because 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:18.059 I lived with my grandfather. So I got picked 00:14:18.059 --> 00:14:21.279 up for a two -year ROTC scholarship in 1996, 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:29.720 separated December 96 as a staff sergeant. Drove 00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:32.960 back home to Daytona Beach from the South San 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:36.320 Francisco Bay Area and started, well, started, 00:14:36.440 --> 00:14:40.559 I shouldn't say, finished my schooling there. 00:14:40.860 --> 00:14:43.639 So that's how I wound up at the great University 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:46.240 of Embry -Riddle. Well, I know we're going to 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:48.200 talk about mental health in a little while as 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:50.120 well, the impact of trauma when we're wearing 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:53.960 a uniform. One of the real... you know, aha moments 00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:56.139 that I've had as we progress through all these 00:14:56.139 --> 00:14:59.139 interviews is the impact of childhood trauma 00:14:59.139 --> 00:15:01.799 or, you know, arguably unaddressed or addressed 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:05.659 of our early life, you know, that sent us more 00:15:05.659 --> 00:15:07.580 and often than not into uniform in the first 00:15:07.580 --> 00:15:10.200 place. You kind of made a comment about lacking 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:12.899 mentors as you were growing up prior. When you 00:15:12.899 --> 00:15:15.740 reflect now, what were the highs of your upbringing 00:15:15.740 --> 00:15:18.379 and what was some of the things that maybe contributed 00:15:18.379 --> 00:15:23.759 to the struggles in adult life? Uh, I mean, some 00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:27.059 of it I am not going to fully nosedive into, 00:15:27.259 --> 00:15:31.659 but yes, um, there were some things there when 00:15:31.659 --> 00:15:37.700 I was younger and with, you got me dancing in 00:15:37.700 --> 00:15:40.500 my mind a little bit. The, uh, just like if you 00:15:40.500 --> 00:15:42.200 asked me something about stuff I'm not supposed 00:15:42.200 --> 00:15:45.740 to talk about, um, there were contributing factors 00:15:45.740 --> 00:15:49.360 I would say when I was younger that may have 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:55.019 contributed to how I thought, how I felt, how 00:15:55.019 --> 00:15:58.480 I thought of myself. And since we're going to 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:01.960 get into some of the childhood trauma, I think 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:06.100 there is only about 12, 13 -ish people I've ever 00:16:06.100 --> 00:16:09.860 said this to. You will be 14 and whomever else 00:16:09.860 --> 00:16:13.779 listens to this. And one of the people I shared 00:16:13.779 --> 00:16:16.860 this with is when I was a... doing my squadron 00:16:16.860 --> 00:16:19.899 command lieutenant colonel level command i had 00:16:19.899 --> 00:16:22.220 a guy in my squadron that went through quite 00:16:22.220 --> 00:16:25.480 a bit and he went through he had a lot of mental 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:29.360 issues and i was really worried about him and 00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:32.820 i sat him down and shared what i'm about i shared 00:16:32.820 --> 00:16:35.639 with him to let him know he's not alone and that 00:16:35.639 --> 00:16:37.460 there's a lot of people that suffer with a lot 00:16:37.460 --> 00:16:40.580 of things but it's not the end of the world When 00:16:40.580 --> 00:16:45.539 I was 25, there was a lot of bad things that 00:16:45.539 --> 00:16:52.480 came to a head that summer of 96. And I can't 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:55.220 believe I'm saying this, but for about a half 00:16:55.220 --> 00:16:57.940 hour in my bedroom, it was just me. I was single. 00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:02.000 I had my job in the Air Force. I was working 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:05.859 a second job. In retail because I knew I was 00:17:05.859 --> 00:17:09.240 gonna need money shortly so and on top of that 00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:11.880 I was taking a buttload of classes had no life 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.779 because I was sacrificing a short term for a 00:17:15.779 --> 00:17:18.980 long term gain and there was just some a bunch 00:17:18.980 --> 00:17:21.599 of personal factors and family factors that came 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:27.019 to a head and I Sat in my room for a half hour 00:17:27.019 --> 00:17:30.359 rotating a handgun from my mouth to the side 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:36.849 of my head and I think at the end of that, I 00:17:36.849 --> 00:17:39.690 just, it was, I had my, again, I had my aha moment 00:17:39.690 --> 00:17:43.809 of what in the fuck are you doing? And I'm glad 00:17:43.809 --> 00:17:51.490 I finally came to that. But I, it's funny. When 00:17:51.490 --> 00:17:52.970 I was going through what we're going to talk 00:17:52.970 --> 00:17:57.569 about later with the PTSD and all that, you could 00:17:57.569 --> 00:18:00.750 imagine I was asked, oh my God, it seemed like 00:18:00.750 --> 00:18:03.430 every five minutes, are you going to hurt yourself? 00:18:04.170 --> 00:18:08.250 or others. And of course, I told them about that. 00:18:08.250 --> 00:18:11.509 I'm like, look, that was my come to Jesus moment, 00:18:11.609 --> 00:18:15.829 if you will. I didn't do it then. It ain't happening. 00:18:15.990 --> 00:18:18.930 And I'm a smart ass at heart. I'm like, unless 00:18:18.930 --> 00:18:22.109 you're going to sit down and torture me to death 00:18:22.109 --> 00:18:25.190 with a spoon, then I might consider it. But yeah, 00:18:25.329 --> 00:18:28.109 we're safe. But yeah, there was a lot of early 00:18:28.109 --> 00:18:32.710 trauma that led to that point. And that point, 00:18:33.259 --> 00:18:37.660 having made it through actually helped me with 00:18:37.660 --> 00:18:40.900 the later stuff we'll eventually get to. I think 00:18:40.900 --> 00:18:42.740 this is such an important conversation. And thank 00:18:42.740 --> 00:18:45.839 you for trusting me and the audience with your 00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:50.160 story as well. That was hard. But this is, if 00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:52.480 you look at what they call the ACE score, so 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:56.279 the acute childhood, sorry, adverse childhood 00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:59.470 experiences score. I've been told many times 00:18:59.470 --> 00:19:01.730 now that on average, first responders, military 00:19:01.730 --> 00:19:04.029 have a six, six out of ten, I believe it is. 00:19:04.930 --> 00:19:07.430 Prisoners, incarcerated population tend to have 00:19:07.430 --> 00:19:09.710 six as well. And you hear this all the time. 00:19:09.750 --> 00:19:12.390 I end up in the military or dead or in prison. 00:19:12.529 --> 00:19:14.950 You know, so a lot of us are kind of at this 00:19:14.950 --> 00:19:17.970 at this crossroads. And luckily, you talk about 00:19:17.970 --> 00:19:21.460 mentorship. The accumulation of all the positive 00:19:21.460 --> 00:19:23.960 role models in our lives sent us down this positive 00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:27.640 path. But for the grace of God go I, these people 00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:29.680 that didn't. But I think if we're not talking 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:33.640 about that early life and the fracture of the 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:37.579 foundation, and you just take a military member, 00:19:37.700 --> 00:19:39.299 like, well, I was at the Afghanistan withdrawal 00:19:39.299 --> 00:19:41.799 and I saw the bomb go off. And, oh, that must 00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:43.359 be why you've got this. Yeah, but you're not 00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:45.480 talking about what happened, you know, the formative 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:48.289 years. then you could be missing the very pee 00:19:48.289 --> 00:19:50.349 under the mattress that, you know, is really 00:19:50.349 --> 00:19:52.329 causing the issues. It was the origin of these 00:19:52.329 --> 00:19:55.430 issues. Well, I'm going to consider today a win 00:19:55.430 --> 00:19:58.170 because I learned something. One, what you just 00:19:58.170 --> 00:20:00.930 said, I did not know, but what you just said 00:20:00.930 --> 00:20:06.000 helped me connect some dots in my head. If there's 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:07.839 any mental health professionals listening to 00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:10.119 this, I apologize, but I had a good relationship 00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:12.500 with mine when I started the PTSD treatment, 00:20:12.619 --> 00:20:14.779 and I always referred to him as my skull jockey. 00:20:15.339 --> 00:20:22.079 But now I know why he asked a lot of those questions 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:26.259 about my childhood. I'm not going to lie, I was 00:20:26.259 --> 00:20:29.220 just sitting there, how in the hell is this relevant? 00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:33.309 But now that you say that, I get it. I mean, 00:20:33.329 --> 00:20:35.930 if you just kind of look at the basic building 00:20:35.930 --> 00:20:38.609 blocks when it comes to psychology, did that 00:20:38.609 --> 00:20:41.910 child feel safe? Did that child feel loved? Did 00:20:41.910 --> 00:20:46.190 they feel, you know, validated? All these things. 00:20:46.230 --> 00:20:47.710 And now you take a child, you know, one of the 00:20:47.710 --> 00:20:49.630 parents left. Well, why wasn't I good enough 00:20:49.630 --> 00:20:52.250 for that in my dad? Or why was I good enough 00:20:52.250 --> 00:20:54.569 to stop them drinking? You know, all these things. 00:20:55.230 --> 00:20:57.289 And then you think about what's that child going 00:20:57.289 --> 00:20:58.890 to do now? Well, they don't want other people 00:20:58.890 --> 00:21:01.029 to feel the way they felt. They want to be a 00:21:01.029 --> 00:21:03.269 protector. They want a profession that maybe 00:21:03.269 --> 00:21:05.670 is so exciting that they don't have to think 00:21:05.670 --> 00:21:08.150 about that stuff. And that's all well and good. 00:21:08.190 --> 00:21:11.450 And it carries us in one, five, 10 years. But 00:21:11.450 --> 00:21:13.829 if left unaddressed, then you have this Jenga 00:21:13.829 --> 00:21:18.769 moment. Right. Wow. I like that. Like I said, 00:21:18.950 --> 00:21:21.390 today's been a success already. Good. There we 00:21:21.390 --> 00:21:25.000 go. We can close out. All right. Well, totally 00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:27.640 going off on a tangent now. You mentioned Space 00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:30.660 Command. I'm going to learn from you now because 00:21:30.660 --> 00:21:33.420 we had this conversation a while ago. We hear 00:21:33.420 --> 00:21:35.259 about Space Force. And if we're talking about 00:21:35.259 --> 00:21:38.529 Florida, I literally got off a cruise. probably 00:21:38.529 --> 00:21:40.890 a couple of years ago now, and the Air Force 00:21:40.890 --> 00:21:43.670 sign had been changed from Air Force Base to 00:21:43.670 --> 00:21:46.789 Space Force Base. So I'm the child that kind 00:21:46.789 --> 00:21:48.750 of grew up with Thatcher and Reagan and, you 00:21:48.750 --> 00:21:52.230 know, the Star Wars program. So educate us, the 00:21:52.230 --> 00:21:55.529 audience, on the genesis of Space Force, and 00:21:55.529 --> 00:21:57.509 then maybe you can debunk some of the myths while 00:21:57.509 --> 00:22:00.549 we're at it as well. Well, I will do my best. 00:22:00.990 --> 00:22:05.009 I am not a Space Force professional. I did not. 00:22:06.539 --> 00:22:10.839 I left Air Force Space Command in 1996. Granted, 00:22:10.940 --> 00:22:15.500 I had some touches with it as I moved through 00:22:15.500 --> 00:22:19.380 my career. And when I was on a joint staff as 00:22:19.380 --> 00:22:23.740 a lieutenant colonel, they were working on the 00:22:23.740 --> 00:22:27.519 stand up of Space Force. But, you know, within 00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:30.160 the Air Force, you have what they call major 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:33.779 commands. You know, you're going to, for lack 00:22:33.779 --> 00:22:36.220 of better words, to keep it simple. we're going 00:22:36.220 --> 00:22:39.279 to group all these similar toys under this major 00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:42.599 command all of these similar toys under this 00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:45.500 major command you know you've got air mobility 00:22:45.500 --> 00:22:49.119 command so all your air refueling assets all 00:22:49.119 --> 00:22:51.720 of your airlifters and things of that nature 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:56.259 under that air combat command all your fighters 00:22:56.259 --> 00:22:59.380 and bombers but you know they had air force space 00:22:59.380 --> 00:23:03.140 command and within air force space command you 00:23:03.140 --> 00:23:07.900 know you had Uh, geez, uh, low earth, low earth 00:23:07.900 --> 00:23:13.960 stuff, uh, high, high stuff, uh, in the, you 00:23:13.960 --> 00:23:17.660 know, geo type stuff. You had ground -based, 00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:21.059 uh, radars that would watch stuff in early war 00:23:21.059 --> 00:23:25.460 or in a low earth orbit. You had launch type, 00:23:25.579 --> 00:23:31.420 uh, things of it. And. I think it ultimately, 00:23:31.579 --> 00:23:35.880 if I remember correctly, boiled down to funding. 00:23:36.619 --> 00:23:42.160 So when you've got Air Force, U .S. government 00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:45.920 approves this much money for the Air Force. Air 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:50.140 Force, oh man, I'm hitting this so topical. I've 00:23:50.140 --> 00:23:52.799 got all these different collections of toys. 00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:56.839 I've got a budget for personnel. I've got a budget 00:23:56.839 --> 00:24:01.799 for... fighter aircraft, air mobility aircraft, 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:05.619 space command, research and development, so on 00:24:05.619 --> 00:24:09.579 and so forth. And at the end of the day, there 00:24:09.579 --> 00:24:11.680 had been a lot of different studies and I can't 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:13.519 remember the years and the names of the reports, 00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:19.400 but given the importance of what those space 00:24:19.400 --> 00:24:23.319 assets do for this country and our allies, they 00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:28.960 felt it'd be more appropriate to make a space 00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:33.079 force just like the department of the navy has 00:24:33.079 --> 00:24:36.380 the marine corps now the air department of the 00:24:36.380 --> 00:24:39.740 air force has the space force they fight for 00:24:39.740 --> 00:24:43.119 their own budgets then it's up to them what they 00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:48.200 want to do with their money so that is the god 00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:51.559 awful short and simple of it probably from we 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:53.160 like to joke and say well i'm going to give you 00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.500 the thousand or thirty thousand foot approach 00:24:55.500 --> 00:24:58.420 to it That's probably the 100 ,000 -foot approach 00:24:58.420 --> 00:25:01.000 to it. Yeah, well, thank you. That's more information 00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:03.380 than I had before because I was thinking Starship 00:25:03.380 --> 00:25:07.180 Troopers and, you know. That's what a lot of 00:25:07.180 --> 00:25:11.700 people think, but a lot of it was funding and 00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:15.519 so that they could focus on themselves as an 00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:20.220 entity versus an element of the greater Air Force. 00:25:20.779 --> 00:25:23.799 Absolutely. Well, let's go back to your kind 00:25:23.799 --> 00:25:26.339 of timeline then. So you're standing on the deck 00:25:26.339 --> 00:25:29.740 watching fighter planes, you know, drill taking 00:25:29.740 --> 00:25:32.160 the landing and taking off again. You got Popeye's 00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:35.299 in your hand. Walk me through that moment into 00:25:35.299 --> 00:25:39.039 actually being in the cockpit yourself. Well, 00:25:39.220 --> 00:25:41.319 like I said, that was the pop hurt around the 00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:43.480 world when I pulled my head out of my ass. I 00:25:43.480 --> 00:25:48.460 had been taking classes and I just doubled down 00:25:48.460 --> 00:25:52.390 at that point, taking more classes. And as I 00:25:52.390 --> 00:25:55.890 said, I got to, it's not there anymore, Onizuka 00:25:55.890 --> 00:25:59.450 Air Station when I left England, which was in 00:25:59.450 --> 00:26:03.250 the South Bay. I was taking a ton of classes, 00:26:03.549 --> 00:26:06.589 working extra because, like I said, I was focusing 00:26:06.589 --> 00:26:10.150 on getting extra money in my bank account for, 00:26:10.369 --> 00:26:12.869 you know, in the hopes that I got picked up for 00:26:12.869 --> 00:26:16.650 commissioning. That happened. And I got really 00:26:16.650 --> 00:26:21.200 lucky because. Mid 90s, they were, you know, 00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:24.480 the great Soviet Union isn't there anymore. The 00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:27.500 Cold War is gone. We don't need this large Cold 00:26:27.500 --> 00:26:31.079 War force anymore. And they started drawing down. 00:26:31.700 --> 00:26:36.940 And when I was at Embry -Riddle, I had. So when 00:26:36.940 --> 00:26:38.640 I got there, I had two and a half years of college 00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:41.779 done. So I only needed a year and a half to have 00:26:41.779 --> 00:26:45.759 my degree. But you had to do the two years in 00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:48.970 ROTC to commission. Because they were drawing 00:26:48.970 --> 00:26:53.009 down, I was told, hey, you're picked up for this 00:26:53.009 --> 00:26:57.109 program, but the Air Force is trying to eliminate 00:26:57.109 --> 00:26:59.109 numbers. If you want to walk away when you're 00:26:59.109 --> 00:27:02.369 done, you can walk away. And I'm not going to 00:27:02.369 --> 00:27:07.450 lie, part of that seemed somewhat exciting because, 00:27:07.529 --> 00:27:09.869 holy crap, they're going to pay for my school 00:27:09.869 --> 00:27:14.549 and I can just walk away and do whatever. Like 00:27:14.549 --> 00:27:18.250 I said, my primary focus was I wanted to fly. 00:27:18.589 --> 00:27:22.170 I had always stared at planes as early as I can 00:27:22.170 --> 00:27:25.329 remember. So I didn't want to be an old man and 00:27:25.329 --> 00:27:30.529 say, what if? So I stayed and fought like heck 00:27:30.529 --> 00:27:34.130 to get good grades, so on and so forth. But then 00:27:34.130 --> 00:27:38.609 they told me, okay, if you graduate when you're 00:27:38.609 --> 00:27:41.869 supposed to, which was supposed to be December 00:27:41.869 --> 00:27:45.259 98. I would have been too old for pilot training. 00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:49.980 But if I can graduate in the spring of 98, it's 00:27:49.980 --> 00:27:54.279 waverable. So it worked out perfect because I 00:27:54.279 --> 00:27:57.180 only had a year and a half left. So I was able 00:27:57.180 --> 00:28:01.480 to get the waivers I needed and graduated early, 00:28:01.579 --> 00:28:06.940 got my pilot slot. And at those times, they were 00:28:06.940 --> 00:28:12.660 a little backlogged for pilot training. i was 00:28:12.660 --> 00:28:15.380 sent off to when i graduated i was sent off to 00:28:15.380 --> 00:28:18.859 mcdill air force base over in tampa on casual 00:28:18.859 --> 00:28:23.039 status there were 16 of us just waiting for our 00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:27.720 pilot training date to come so you know they 00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:30.839 farmed us out throughout the wing to you know 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:34.339 guest help lieutenant for whether it's six months 00:28:34.339 --> 00:28:37.640 to a year and that's where i met my wife we got 00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:41.859 married there and Then I went off to Vance Air 00:28:41.859 --> 00:28:48.440 Force Base in spring of 99 in Vance or Enid, 00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:51.759 Oklahoma. So you must have a pretty interesting 00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:55.059 experience of 9 -11. And you kind of this side 00:28:55.059 --> 00:28:57.319 of that, that incident that obviously led us 00:28:57.319 --> 00:29:00.440 into 20 years of war in the Middle East. Yes. 00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:03.000 Talk to me about the it's an interesting perspective, 00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:06.890 actually. The way you were trained pre -911, 00:29:07.190 --> 00:29:09.569 and I'm assuming kind of based on certain conflicts 00:29:09.569 --> 00:29:12.369 in our recent military history, and then what 00:29:12.369 --> 00:29:17.890 was that shift after the towers fell? So it's 00:29:17.890 --> 00:29:22.930 funny, and I'll get to this. And I think it was 00:29:22.930 --> 00:29:27.430 in 2003. I can't remember what VSP stood for, 00:29:27.509 --> 00:29:30.950 Variable Separation Program or something like 00:29:30.950 --> 00:29:34.269 that. Again, they were trying to draw down and 00:29:34.269 --> 00:29:37.309 offered money for people to get out. There were 00:29:37.309 --> 00:29:41.109 no strings attached. And my year group, when 00:29:41.109 --> 00:29:44.089 you commission, they call you your year group 00:29:44.089 --> 00:29:46.190 the year you commissioned. And that's just how 00:29:46.190 --> 00:29:49.910 they track numbers, so on and so forth. And my 00:29:49.910 --> 00:29:53.069 year group for pilots got gutted. And the reason 00:29:53.069 --> 00:29:57.809 ties back to what you were saying. So I finished. 00:29:58.539 --> 00:30:02.700 So guys I graduated and commissioned with either 00:30:02.700 --> 00:30:09.400 graduated in 99 or early 2000. And we were that 00:30:09.400 --> 00:30:14.420 last group of pre -911, if you were in heavies, 00:30:14.420 --> 00:30:18.740 pre -911 co -pilots, or if you were picking airframe 00:30:18.740 --> 00:30:21.740 single -seaters, we were those last pre -911 00:30:21.740 --> 00:30:28.470 folks. I just remember you trained on what your 00:30:28.470 --> 00:30:32.170 mission was. You went through 13 months of pilot 00:30:32.170 --> 00:30:35.390 training. Then you get to, hey, this is the airframe 00:30:35.390 --> 00:30:37.549 you're going to fly. And that could have been 00:30:37.549 --> 00:30:41.529 another three to six months of training. So you 00:30:41.529 --> 00:30:44.970 can see almost two years you've been a student. 00:30:45.410 --> 00:30:48.849 You get to your first base. Well, you've learned 00:30:48.849 --> 00:30:51.750 how to fly the plane. Now you're going to learn 00:30:51.750 --> 00:30:55.769 how to employ it. you know so you go through 00:30:55.769 --> 00:30:59.250 all your mission ready uh yeah mission qualification 00:30:59.250 --> 00:31:05.589 training and you're a bona fide pilot you know 00:31:05.589 --> 00:31:10.109 you're trained on whatever mission operations 00:31:10.109 --> 00:31:14.650 plans are specific to your airframe but i remember 00:31:14.650 --> 00:31:19.650 at my first base a lot of us co -pilots we were 00:31:19.650 --> 00:31:22.519 thinking We were going to leave because in order 00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:24.640 to upgrade aircraft commander, you have to have 00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:29.000 X number of hours and experiences, if you will, 00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:31.380 as you're moving along. And let's face it, pre 00:31:31.380 --> 00:31:35.500 9 -11, there wasn't a lot going on. I remember 00:31:35.500 --> 00:31:41.460 if you were flying 30 hours in a month, man, 00:31:41.619 --> 00:31:44.740 you're on fire. You're flying a lot, which it 00:31:44.740 --> 00:31:47.539 really isn't when you look at that post 9 -11. 00:31:48.519 --> 00:31:52.019 We were showing up late to the squadron in the 00:31:52.019 --> 00:31:56.299 morning. We'd take long lunches. We'd leave early. 00:31:56.440 --> 00:31:59.099 There was nothing going on. But when 9 -11 happened, 00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:03.920 I mean, I was gone October, November, December 00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:09.140 01. A good chunk of 02, good chunk of 03. Even 00:32:09.140 --> 00:32:11.019 when you weren't deployed when you were home, 00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:15.640 you're going on temporary duty. to this base 00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:17.880 to support that. You're going here to support 00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:20.500 this exercise. So even when you were home, you 00:32:20.500 --> 00:32:24.900 weren't home. And when that first reduction came 00:32:24.900 --> 00:32:30.720 in 2003, a bunch of those pre -911 pilots, no, 00:32:30.859 --> 00:32:35.140 I remember the good life. I'm out. And of course, 00:32:35.140 --> 00:32:38.980 every effort to try and downsize after that, 00:32:39.059 --> 00:32:41.599 pilots and navigators were usually excluded. 00:32:43.240 --> 00:32:46.240 They learned their lesson. What about the actual 00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:48.519 day, 9 -11? What was that through your eyes? 00:32:50.779 --> 00:32:54.059 Mine was a little different. I was actually in 00:32:54.059 --> 00:32:59.220 the middle of a root canal. So I was laying in 00:32:59.220 --> 00:33:02.079 that chair with that big dam on my face, my mouth 00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:07.279 jacked open. And I remember somebody from within 00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:10.660 the dental squadron sticking their head in saying, 00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:15.819 hey. The plane just hit one of the towers. You 00:33:15.819 --> 00:33:17.680 know, I'm just laying there. I can't say anything. 00:33:18.299 --> 00:33:20.980 And I'm just sitting there thinking about, I 00:33:20.980 --> 00:33:24.180 mean, I think it was in the 40s, a B -25 flew 00:33:24.180 --> 00:33:27.000 into the Empire State Building. So I'm just sitting 00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:30.500 there thinking it had to be in -flight emergency. 00:33:30.700 --> 00:33:33.240 There had to have been bad weather. Bottom line, 00:33:33.339 --> 00:33:37.839 accident, accident, accident. And not long after 00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:41.019 that, they came in and said, one just hit the 00:33:41.019 --> 00:33:44.599 other tower. And we both looked at each other. 00:33:44.740 --> 00:33:48.539 And within a few minutes, here I am, as I said, 00:33:48.539 --> 00:33:52.519 with that big damn on my face, the bib. And we 00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:57.519 walked down to the staff break room, watching 00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:02.359 it all unfold on TV. And, you know, I'm just 00:34:02.359 --> 00:34:06.000 drooling all over myself. She was just sitting 00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:09.119 there staring at the TV in disbelief. And I just 00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:12.099 remember. come on, we got to get the, I could, 00:34:12.139 --> 00:34:13.860 like I said, couldn't talk. I was just hitting 00:34:13.860 --> 00:34:16.199 her saying, we got to get this done because I 00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:18.039 know I'm going to have to get back to my squadron 00:34:18.039 --> 00:34:23.320 and get into the squadron. It was, it was something 00:34:23.320 --> 00:34:26.099 you had to have lived through it, you know, as 00:34:26.099 --> 00:34:29.940 you know, to fully appreciate it, not knowing 00:34:29.940 --> 00:34:32.780 what was going on, what was coming next. I remember 00:34:32.780 --> 00:34:36.420 the entire squadron was in the innermost portion 00:34:36.420 --> 00:34:40.159 of the building to where And you didn't know. 00:34:40.260 --> 00:34:43.400 I mean, I look at it now, 20 some odd years later, 00:34:43.599 --> 00:34:47.139 you know, staying away from windows, doors, because 00:34:47.139 --> 00:34:48.659 you didn't know if something was going to explode 00:34:48.659 --> 00:34:53.739 outside and blow inward. And so I was what they 00:34:53.739 --> 00:34:56.079 called duty not to involve flight because I had 00:34:56.079 --> 00:34:59.920 my tooth done and Novocaine and all that crap. 00:34:59.980 --> 00:35:03.360 But, you know, they shut the airspace down and 00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:05.880 we were launching because we were flying a KC 00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:09.539 -135 there in Georgia. our guys got up in the 00:35:09.539 --> 00:35:13.460 air quickly to support a lot of the combat air 00:35:13.460 --> 00:35:17.539 patrols and once i got back on flight status 00:35:17.539 --> 00:35:21.940 a few days later took off and fly that that is 00:35:21.940 --> 00:35:24.219 something that sticks in my head very vividly 00:35:24.219 --> 00:35:27.780 because we were just south of atlanta and that 00:35:27.780 --> 00:35:30.639 airspace you know it goes on and off of being 00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:33.900 the world's busiest airport so flying through 00:35:33.900 --> 00:35:36.420 that airspace i mean you're looking for that 00:35:36.889 --> 00:35:39.829 One -tenth of a second break in radio transmissions 00:35:39.829 --> 00:35:43.389 to get your radio calls in. Constant stair -stepping 00:35:43.389 --> 00:35:45.289 as you're trying to climb up and you're getting 00:35:45.289 --> 00:35:48.530 vectored around other aircraft. That first day 00:35:48.530 --> 00:35:50.750 I flew after 9 -11. Like I said, I'd have to 00:35:50.750 --> 00:35:56.449 look in my log books, but it was unreal. We took 00:35:56.449 --> 00:36:03.289 off. Silence. Nothing on the radios. No aircraft. 00:36:06.980 --> 00:36:09.900 departure. Then we got handed off to Atlanta 00:36:09.900 --> 00:36:14.460 Center. And I just remember that controller with 00:36:14.460 --> 00:36:18.480 Atlanta Center saying, yeah, Rhett Butler, that 00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:22.460 was our call sign, Rhett, you are cleared to 00:36:22.460 --> 00:36:24.860 go wherever you want. You're the only aircraft 00:36:24.860 --> 00:36:28.920 in my sector. And it was just silence. Every 00:36:28.920 --> 00:36:30.920 15 minutes, if you hear nothing, you're supposed 00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:33.579 to do radio checks to make sure you haven't lost 00:36:33.579 --> 00:36:37.679 your comms. And about every 15 minutes, have 00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:41.679 you heard anything? Nope. Atlanta, Rhett checking 00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:44.539 in. Yeah, you're still there. Yeah, just whatever 00:36:44.539 --> 00:36:49.599 you want to do. So that was, yeah, something 00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:52.719 I'll never forget. I just can't imagine what 00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:55.599 it must have been like for the pilots. I'm not 00:36:55.599 --> 00:36:59.539 saying this ever actually happened, but for the 00:36:59.539 --> 00:37:01.980 pilots to know in their hearts that they might 00:37:01.980 --> 00:37:05.400 be faced with the situation. where a you know 00:37:05.400 --> 00:37:09.539 a commercial liner was headed towards a place 00:37:09.539 --> 00:37:11.559 where many more people would die and they would 00:37:11.559 --> 00:37:14.599 have to make that decision well that's like the 00:37:14.599 --> 00:37:18.579 uh f -16 two f -16s that took off out of here 00:37:18.579 --> 00:37:22.619 that weren't armed and they were vectored towards 00:37:22.619 --> 00:37:24.820 flight 93 and they thought they were going to 00:37:24.820 --> 00:37:29.059 have to ram it but you know the The heroes on 00:37:29.059 --> 00:37:31.260 that plane took matters into their own hand and 00:37:31.260 --> 00:37:33.699 saved a lot of lives. And I just could not imagine 00:37:33.699 --> 00:37:37.760 going back to what you said, knowing that you're 00:37:37.760 --> 00:37:41.079 going to have to, in that instance, fly your 00:37:41.079 --> 00:37:45.079 aircraft into a commercial airliner or, you know, 00:37:45.099 --> 00:37:49.659 once we got postured properly to potentially 00:37:49.659 --> 00:37:54.000 have to fire on it. So I could not imagine. I'm 00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:57.000 with you on that one. Yeah, horrendous. well 00:37:57.000 --> 00:37:59.340 so that's happened now obviously the wheels are 00:37:59.340 --> 00:38:02.900 in motion you know afghanistan iraq um right 00:38:02.900 --> 00:38:04.840 did you find i mean we're going to talk about 00:38:04.840 --> 00:38:06.900 obviously the middle east um you know towards 00:38:06.900 --> 00:38:08.840 the very end of the conflict but prior to that 00:38:08.840 --> 00:38:12.840 did you find yourself in the middle east yeah 00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:17.559 absolutely so we had sent off the first wave 00:38:17.559 --> 00:38:22.539 of aircraft in early october i went off with 00:38:22.539 --> 00:38:27.510 uh additional folks to support our deployed folks. 00:38:28.949 --> 00:38:36.630 We went to Al Udeid, got back, then I went to 00:38:36.630 --> 00:38:40.409 Al Udeid again in the spring. And then after 00:38:40.409 --> 00:38:44.849 that fall, you know, we started flying out of 00:38:44.849 --> 00:38:50.670 Manus near Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan, got there late. 00:38:51.789 --> 00:39:00.869 2003 into 2004, back there again in 04, I believe 00:39:00.869 --> 00:39:06.570 again in 05, and then IUD'd again in late 05 00:39:06.570 --> 00:39:11.949 into 06. And then I started doing a bunch of 00:39:11.949 --> 00:39:15.829 different staff stuff in schools that precluded 00:39:15.829 --> 00:39:19.010 me from, not that I didn't want to go, but I'd 00:39:19.010 --> 00:39:22.809 gotten 06 deployments in. and flying between 00:39:22.809 --> 00:39:29.510 al -yudid and kyrgyzstan seeing supporting afghanistan 00:39:29.510 --> 00:39:33.389 and then on that last deployment supporting afghanistan 00:39:33.389 --> 00:39:37.110 and iraq so the question i ask everyone who's 00:39:37.110 --> 00:39:40.610 been deployed forward into a combat zone um and 00:39:40.610 --> 00:39:42.190 obviously each of these lenses are different 00:39:42.190 --> 00:39:44.750 you know that green beret is going to be different 00:39:44.750 --> 00:39:49.010 than a pilot for example but the the kind of 00:39:49.010 --> 00:39:51.159 prequel to this so this uh What am I trying to 00:39:51.159 --> 00:39:53.460 say here? The reason why I ask this question 00:39:53.460 --> 00:39:57.199 is when you're a civilian back in the US, you 00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:00.119 get a very polarized view of war, depending on 00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:02.679 which, you know, I'm doing air quotes now, news 00:40:02.679 --> 00:40:06.280 station that you subscribe to. So either a very 00:40:06.280 --> 00:40:08.500 pro -war, kill them all, let God sort them out, 00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:11.420 or very anti, they're all baby killers. And the 00:40:11.420 --> 00:40:14.059 middle are our men and women, arguably our children, 00:40:14.219 --> 00:40:16.519 wearing uniforms, fighting for this country and 00:40:16.519 --> 00:40:20.070 fighting for the people of that nation. Was when 00:40:20.070 --> 00:40:22.230 you, you know, wherever you found yourself, were 00:40:22.230 --> 00:40:24.289 there moments where you realized that there were 00:40:24.289 --> 00:40:27.030 some horrific people that did need to be taken 00:40:27.030 --> 00:40:29.349 care of, regardless of politics that sent you 00:40:29.349 --> 00:40:36.769 over there? Yes, I was aware of those people. 00:40:37.670 --> 00:40:42.110 I because every flight you get Intel briefs before 00:40:42.110 --> 00:40:47.610 you go fly. Sometimes you would go up and they 00:40:47.610 --> 00:40:49.670 called them anchor areas when I was flying the 00:40:49.670 --> 00:40:54.510 KC -135 and the KC -10. Big chunks of sky strategically 00:40:54.510 --> 00:40:57.909 placed throughout the country. And you would 00:40:57.909 --> 00:41:01.329 go hang out in those areas. And you would have, 00:41:01.550 --> 00:41:04.849 you know, as things in Afghanistan and Iraq normalized 00:41:04.849 --> 00:41:07.650 a bit, you found yourself hanging out in these 00:41:07.650 --> 00:41:11.349 anchor areas more. But, you know, fighters would 00:41:11.349 --> 00:41:14.980 be out there. doing patrols, caps, so on and 00:41:14.980 --> 00:41:18.940 so forth. And if troops in contact were called, 00:41:19.239 --> 00:41:22.860 the fighters would get called. And then dependent 00:41:22.860 --> 00:41:26.239 upon the severity of the gunfight on the ground, 00:41:26.480 --> 00:41:30.659 a lot of us, whether it's the 135 or the 10, 00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:35.880 I know for me personally, I did not, if it's 00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:39.139 our folks on the ground whose lives we're trying 00:41:39.139 --> 00:41:41.280 to help as they're doing what they do down there, 00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:45.099 I didn't want those fighters to have to fly however 00:41:45.099 --> 00:41:47.500 far it was to where this anchor area was, so 00:41:47.500 --> 00:41:49.539 I'd go and orbit over them. So they were just 00:41:49.539 --> 00:41:51.639 literally going up and down right over them. 00:41:51.940 --> 00:41:54.539 That was your standard stuff. But from time to 00:41:54.539 --> 00:42:00.019 time, you would get briefed on a high -value 00:42:00.019 --> 00:42:04.900 asset. If you remember that terminology, our 00:42:04.900 --> 00:42:10.630 badass special ops guys going after some. some 00:42:10.630 --> 00:42:14.369 very naughty guys, if you will. And, you know, 00:42:14.389 --> 00:42:17.769 sometimes they would literally grab a couple 00:42:17.769 --> 00:42:22.989 of the 135s or KC -10s to be tied to that package 00:42:22.989 --> 00:42:25.989 supporting them. So I supported a few of those. 00:42:26.309 --> 00:42:30.309 And that's when I was definitely, you know, they're 00:42:30.309 --> 00:42:34.750 there, but to sit in on Intel briefs and go. 00:42:35.179 --> 00:42:37.599 I mean, I'd never know who it actually was, but 00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:40.760 if they're dedicating those types of assets to 00:42:40.760 --> 00:42:44.940 get one or two of these, you know they're not 00:42:44.940 --> 00:42:47.920 the best of people. Now, the other side of that 00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:50.360 question that we also don't really get on mainstream 00:42:50.360 --> 00:42:53.320 media is kindness and compassion amidst these 00:42:53.320 --> 00:42:55.980 war zones. So when you reflect back, what were 00:42:55.980 --> 00:42:58.659 events that really kind of pop in your mind? 00:42:59.940 --> 00:43:04.940 Well, kindness and compassion. kind of think 00:43:04.940 --> 00:43:09.599 that's hardwired you know in into us as a people 00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:17.460 you know i know there's a lot of a lot of polarizing 00:43:17.460 --> 00:43:20.099 opinions right now but when you get down to the 00:43:20.099 --> 00:43:26.179 brass tacks are men and women in uniform i the 00:43:26.179 --> 00:43:29.019 one it's funny the one that comes to mind to 00:43:29.019 --> 00:43:35.090 me i think it was in iraq And can't even fully 00:43:35.090 --> 00:43:38.010 remember the details, but there was a baby that 00:43:38.010 --> 00:43:41.929 they had brought in and just crying, crying, 00:43:41.949 --> 00:43:45.650 crying. And this chief, I remember seeing a picture 00:43:45.650 --> 00:43:48.610 of it. This Air Force chief master sergeant was 00:43:48.610 --> 00:43:51.469 holding the baby. And when he held that baby, 00:43:51.610 --> 00:43:55.170 it stopped crying. You know, it's just that, 00:43:55.210 --> 00:44:00.750 you know, that God, for me, I don't have outside 00:44:00.750 --> 00:44:04.880 of. what we'll probably get to with what I did 00:44:04.880 --> 00:44:08.659 with the Afghanistan Neo. I never had personal 00:44:08.659 --> 00:44:12.059 experiences with it. It's just, it was my reading 00:44:12.059 --> 00:44:14.500 it, seeing, you know, the chatter through military 00:44:14.500 --> 00:44:17.440 channels, the stuff that would make it into Stars 00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:22.260 and Stripes. But I just, you know, I don't think 00:44:22.260 --> 00:44:25.599 anybody joins the military wanting to kill. It's 00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:27.619 just one of those things that if you're in a 00:44:27.619 --> 00:44:30.980 certain profession, you know, if you're an infantry. 00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:35.059 uh person you know if you're an attack or fighter 00:44:35.059 --> 00:44:37.760 pilot you have to know that inevitably that could 00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:41.119 happen and you're trained to make it happen but 00:44:41.119 --> 00:44:45.559 you know i think we're very loving and compassionate 00:44:45.559 --> 00:44:49.019 people that go above and beyond to try and take 00:44:49.019 --> 00:44:51.960 care of those that are in need yeah and i agree 00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:54.260 i mean i've heard so many stories from you know 00:44:54.260 --> 00:44:56.519 just the you know playing with the indigenous 00:44:56.519 --> 00:44:59.539 kids and handing out you know candy through the 00:45:00.170 --> 00:45:02.349 military veterinary surgeons taking care of the 00:45:02.349 --> 00:45:04.849 local animals and again i just think it needs 00:45:04.849 --> 00:45:07.130 to be heard you know these are human beings in 00:45:07.130 --> 00:45:09.070 uniform the same way that fire and police are 00:45:09.070 --> 00:45:12.329 um but if we just think of them as like you know 00:45:12.329 --> 00:45:14.670 these these kind of toy soldiers that we send 00:45:14.670 --> 00:45:17.309 out that are just you know got bloodlust in their 00:45:17.309 --> 00:45:19.550 mind and then it's it's further you know the 00:45:19.550 --> 00:45:22.070 fire is fed by one side of the conversation that's 00:45:22.070 --> 00:45:24.889 all rah rah rah team america world police then 00:45:24.889 --> 00:45:27.789 these men and women come home who have a servant's 00:45:27.789 --> 00:45:30.530 heart and then they wonder you know why we wonder 00:45:30.530 --> 00:45:32.489 why they struggle because they're not soldiers 00:45:32.489 --> 00:45:36.489 they're humans i think that argument of what 00:45:36.489 --> 00:45:41.389 you're saying just a bunch of you know the bloodlust 00:45:41.389 --> 00:45:45.949 and people wanting to fight you know you maybe 00:45:45.949 --> 00:45:48.969 could have made that argument when we were a 00:45:48.969 --> 00:45:53.030 draft service but since the early 70s or mid 00:45:53.030 --> 00:45:55.650 70s i don't remember the exact year we've been 00:45:55.650 --> 00:46:00.519 in all volunteer service So we are literally 00:46:00.519 --> 00:46:06.519 a cross section of what our society is. And, 00:46:06.539 --> 00:46:09.840 you know, there's the good and bad in that. But 00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:13.880 what you would call somebody in the military, 00:46:14.079 --> 00:46:16.519 well, you better look in the mirror because we're 00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:18.920 you. We're all the same people volunteering. 00:46:20.219 --> 00:46:23.840 So unfortunately, you know, when you look on 00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:26.059 the bell curve, there's that very small percentage 00:46:26.059 --> 00:46:30.139 of society that is. are undesirable in the fact 00:46:30.139 --> 00:46:34.659 that they may not have the morals that everybody 00:46:34.659 --> 00:46:37.280 else does. Some of those make it into the military, 00:46:37.460 --> 00:46:41.280 unfortunately. But by and large, everywhere else 00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:44.340 on that spectrum, they are amazing human beings 00:46:44.340 --> 00:46:46.940 that just want to do good. Matt Coleman's opinion. 00:46:47.179 --> 00:46:49.460 No, I agree. And the same, you know, with plumbers 00:46:49.460 --> 00:46:51.039 and firefighters and everything else, you have 00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:54.690 the bad apples. One of my guests recently, I'm 00:46:54.690 --> 00:46:56.630 blanking who it was now. I interview so many 00:46:56.630 --> 00:46:59.570 people that sometimes it gets muddy, but I asked 00:46:59.570 --> 00:47:06.949 him, which I'll ask you now, when I compare industries 00:47:06.949 --> 00:47:10.369 that make a lot of money, sometimes that comes 00:47:10.369 --> 00:47:12.809 at the detriment of the nation. So perfect example, 00:47:13.170 --> 00:47:16.230 fast food, pharmacology, there's a lot of things 00:47:16.230 --> 00:47:19.800 that are in modern society that... As we watch, 00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:23.780 our nation is 70 % obese or overweight. They 00:47:23.780 --> 00:47:26.500 are paying the price. And when I look at wars, 00:47:26.699 --> 00:47:28.699 obviously we just yesterday, I think it was or 00:47:28.699 --> 00:47:31.139 two days ago, was the anniversary of the liberation 00:47:31.139 --> 00:47:33.920 of Auschwitz. So the World War II generation 00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:37.360 did incredible, incredible thing. There are some 00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:40.360 conflicts that are unavoidable. But when you 00:47:40.360 --> 00:47:43.460 think about how many companies make millions, 00:47:43.539 --> 00:47:46.940 if not billions of dollars from war. You have 00:47:46.940 --> 00:47:49.079 to kind of question the checks and balances of 00:47:49.079 --> 00:47:52.400 how do we stop wars from being perpetuated? I 00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:54.179 got a really interesting response from one of 00:47:54.179 --> 00:47:57.199 my guests. And he said, if we went back to a 00:47:57.199 --> 00:47:59.860 draft system, so you have obviously your military, 00:47:59.920 --> 00:48:02.440 but you downsize it. And then you had a draft 00:48:02.440 --> 00:48:05.199 system. So everyone has skin in the game. He 00:48:05.199 --> 00:48:07.519 goes, you watch that would make a huge impact 00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:10.900 on how easily we're sent to war. What is your 00:48:10.900 --> 00:48:14.420 perspective on how we avoid unnecessary conflicts? 00:48:15.400 --> 00:48:21.340 Well, I think that is an interesting look at 00:48:21.340 --> 00:48:27.179 it, draft versus non -draft. But I think, again, 00:48:27.260 --> 00:48:32.519 I'm reaching into the caverns of my mind on the 00:48:32.519 --> 00:48:41.780 draft. I recall there still being a lot of angst 00:48:41.780 --> 00:48:46.280 about that because all the... Lower class. I 00:48:46.280 --> 00:48:48.539 don't think we have classes in our country, but 00:48:48.539 --> 00:48:51.059 you know what I'm saying? The lower end of the 00:48:51.059 --> 00:48:57.119 economic spectrum and those in the middle, middle 00:48:57.119 --> 00:49:01.420 and lower still felt that, well, they're the 00:49:01.420 --> 00:49:04.480 primary from the draft because, hey, if you've 00:49:04.480 --> 00:49:06.860 got some money, you can afford college. Well, 00:49:06.940 --> 00:49:10.400 if you're in college, you can. be ineligible 00:49:10.400 --> 00:49:13.860 for the draft. If I'm in this particular job, 00:49:14.300 --> 00:49:17.559 well, I'm not eligible for the draft. So that 00:49:17.559 --> 00:49:22.440 still falls back on those less fortunate that 00:49:22.440 --> 00:49:26.059 can't afford that stuff. I think if you institute 00:49:26.059 --> 00:49:29.980 another draft, you would see the same thing that 00:49:29.980 --> 00:49:33.619 people in the 40s, 50s, and 60s saw, the perceived 00:49:34.599 --> 00:49:36.920 Well, he's got a silver spoon in his mouth, so 00:49:36.920 --> 00:49:40.880 he's never going to get drafted. So that's just 00:49:40.880 --> 00:49:45.619 my thoughts on that part of it. Matt Coleman's 00:49:45.619 --> 00:49:48.300 opinion on how you prevent unnecessary wars. 00:49:48.440 --> 00:49:53.460 Geez. You know, one thing they always teach us, 00:49:53.559 --> 00:49:57.199 you know, whether it is squadron officer school 00:49:57.199 --> 00:50:00.250 at the captain level. intermediate developmental 00:50:00.250 --> 00:50:03.230 education for us in the Air Force, you know, 00:50:03.230 --> 00:50:06.750 at the major level, and then senior developmental 00:50:06.750 --> 00:50:09.929 education. You know, the whole point is we're 00:50:09.929 --> 00:50:12.550 trying to make those that are eventually going 00:50:12.550 --> 00:50:15.170 to be leaders within their respective services 00:50:15.170 --> 00:50:20.610 educated in the sense that we see things in a 00:50:20.610 --> 00:50:25.389 broader sense. So hopefully, you know, we use 00:50:25.389 --> 00:50:28.159 that hunk of gray matter, God. gave us between 00:50:28.159 --> 00:50:31.480 our years when it comes to conflict and one of 00:50:31.480 --> 00:50:34.619 the things they they throw at us the dime you 00:50:34.619 --> 00:50:37.719 know diplomatic information military economic 00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:44.460 i again matt coleman's opinion not trying to 00:50:44.460 --> 00:50:48.360 be political in the slightest but i the first 00:50:48.360 --> 00:50:54.320 letter of dime is d diplomatic and i think if 00:50:54.320 --> 00:51:01.030 we had more diplomacy And they were funded properly 00:51:01.030 --> 00:51:05.889 because I've, oh, geez, seven months I've been 00:51:05.889 --> 00:51:09.070 retired now, but I seem to recall State Department 00:51:09.070 --> 00:51:15.849 not having the best of funding. So why not fund 00:51:15.849 --> 00:51:20.050 that a little better? You know, put out that 00:51:20.050 --> 00:51:26.079 diplomatic front and work, you know. And this 00:51:26.079 --> 00:51:28.860 isn't tied to the political spectrum when I say 00:51:28.860 --> 00:51:33.139 that when it comes to political science, the 00:51:33.139 --> 00:51:38.119 liberal view of, you know, people talking, working 00:51:38.119 --> 00:51:40.760 with each other, so on and so forth. First, the 00:51:40.760 --> 00:51:45.599 real, I can't remember the full terminology of 00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:47.840 that, but basically, well, they're going to do 00:51:47.840 --> 00:51:50.460 it anyway, so just bomb them. Again, hitting 00:51:50.460 --> 00:51:54.460 that at 100 ,000 foot. again there's always going 00:51:54.460 --> 00:51:57.920 to be bad actors on the international platform 00:51:57.920 --> 00:52:04.679 but we should try to be diplomatic yeah work 00:52:04.679 --> 00:52:08.340 the economic side of it you know work the information 00:52:08.340 --> 00:52:13.219 angle of it before you narrow in on that m of 00:52:13.219 --> 00:52:15.579 the dime matt coleman's opinion yeah no i mean 00:52:15.579 --> 00:52:17.920 i agree i mean communication is everything i 00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:20.019 grew up with uh you know the troubles in northern 00:52:20.019 --> 00:52:21.980 ireland you know and they were bombing them but 00:52:21.980 --> 00:52:25.440 that's you know, a group of people who, I mean, 00:52:25.460 --> 00:52:27.360 the same, they're neighbors, you know, and I 00:52:27.360 --> 00:52:29.940 get totally what, you know, the Britain did as 00:52:29.940 --> 00:52:32.159 far as some of the atrocities in their history. 00:52:32.300 --> 00:52:35.119 But then you have, you know, Catholics and Protestants, 00:52:35.139 --> 00:52:37.599 and they're all the same people, you know, and 00:52:37.599 --> 00:52:40.679 I'm sure if that kind of timeline had gone down 00:52:40.679 --> 00:52:42.840 a different route, there never would have been 00:52:42.840 --> 00:52:45.400 that kind of violence, you know, that sectarian 00:52:45.400 --> 00:52:49.579 violence. You know, it's funny, your kids get 00:52:49.579 --> 00:52:52.900 into it in school. you know as a parent well 00:52:52.900 --> 00:52:57.159 did you talk to him did you work it out i mean 00:52:57.159 --> 00:53:00.360 if he hit you i got it hit him back but did you 00:53:00.360 --> 00:53:03.139 guys try to talk it out and it's funny what why 00:53:03.139 --> 00:53:06.800 don't we elevate that to higher levels of you 00:53:06.800 --> 00:53:09.940 know i don't like what country x is doing well 00:53:09.940 --> 00:53:13.219 let's talk to him yeah and if country i know 00:53:13.219 --> 00:53:16.199 that doesn't that doesn't always work but it 00:53:16.199 --> 00:53:19.239 should be your first try yeah and also if country 00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:21.940 x did something to you your country you don't 00:53:21.940 --> 00:53:26.760 go and bomb country y under the same the same 00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:28.699 rhetoric so you're clear with your own people 00:53:28.699 --> 00:53:30.659 about who actually did it in the first place 00:53:30.659 --> 00:53:33.219 and you're going to get it then so yeah lack 00:53:33.219 --> 00:53:36.300 of trust but um the other interesting sebastian 00:53:36.300 --> 00:53:38.599 junger said which i thought was another kind 00:53:38.599 --> 00:53:41.539 of Parallel to the draft, because firstly, of 00:53:41.539 --> 00:53:43.360 course, if you're going to do something like 00:53:43.360 --> 00:53:45.699 that, it has to be equitable. Everyone has to 00:53:45.699 --> 00:53:48.119 be involved. And I think one way around that 00:53:48.119 --> 00:53:50.420 is, you know, there's Korea, Israel, you know, 00:53:50.420 --> 00:53:53.280 the national service element. But his thing was 00:53:53.280 --> 00:53:55.639 it doesn't have to be military. You can have 00:53:55.639 --> 00:53:58.000 those like, yeah, I'll do military national service. 00:53:58.059 --> 00:53:59.400 Others will be like, all right, I'm going to 00:53:59.400 --> 00:54:02.579 go and, you know, help on the agricultural side 00:54:02.579 --> 00:54:04.539 in my town or I'm going to help assist the fire 00:54:04.539 --> 00:54:07.590 service or whatever it is. Having everyone really 00:54:07.590 --> 00:54:09.710 rolling up their sleeves and being part of their 00:54:09.710 --> 00:54:12.869 nation. I love that idea. So not everyone needs 00:54:12.869 --> 00:54:14.489 to fight because not all of us are going to be 00:54:14.489 --> 00:54:17.150 good soldiers, you know, sailors or mariners. 00:54:17.429 --> 00:54:21.250 But we can all serve in some capacity selflessly 00:54:21.250 --> 00:54:23.690 and be part of a team and really be the fabric 00:54:23.690 --> 00:54:26.070 of this nation, which I think would unify us 00:54:26.070 --> 00:54:29.070 again. Yeah. And when we fully mobilized in World 00:54:29.070 --> 00:54:32.690 War Two. And, you know, it took me getting older, 00:54:32.789 --> 00:54:34.849 you know, watch those old Bugs Bunny cartoons 00:54:34.849 --> 00:54:37.670 that were made during World War II and Bugs is 00:54:37.670 --> 00:54:39.230 sitting there holding his heart and it's coming 00:54:39.230 --> 00:54:42.849 out like that and it says 4F on it. What's 4F? 00:54:43.130 --> 00:54:46.550 Oh, you weren't medically, what was it? You weren't 00:54:46.550 --> 00:54:50.610 medically cleared to serve, but the nation was 00:54:50.610 --> 00:54:56.750 mobilized and, you know, I had. great uncles 00:54:56.750 --> 00:55:02.809 on dairy farms in Illinois that your job yeah 00:55:02.809 --> 00:55:05.909 you're fighting age but your job is to work this 00:55:05.909 --> 00:55:09.190 dairy farm because what you're providing helps 00:55:09.190 --> 00:55:14.150 this wedge of that mobilization pie but you know 00:55:14.150 --> 00:55:17.829 again being apolitical what you said I'm with 00:55:17.829 --> 00:55:20.769 you I I don't think conscription is necessarily 00:55:21.840 --> 00:55:24.699 the best thing to do because there are a lot 00:55:24.699 --> 00:55:27.219 of hidden costs in that, the logistics, what 00:55:27.219 --> 00:55:30.079 are you really getting out of it long -term, 00:55:30.199 --> 00:55:34.639 especially when you look at that price tag. But, 00:55:34.739 --> 00:55:41.559 you know, the whole, ask not what you can do 00:55:41.559 --> 00:55:45.059 for your country, or what you can do for the 00:55:45.059 --> 00:55:48.920 country, but I know I totally botched that. But, 00:55:48.920 --> 00:55:55.909 you know. I do, yes. You're right. Why not? Where 00:55:55.909 --> 00:55:59.889 can I be of service to my local community? Where 00:55:59.889 --> 00:56:04.269 can I be of service to my county, my state? You 00:56:04.269 --> 00:56:06.250 know, it doesn't have to be military. You could 00:56:06.250 --> 00:56:08.829 get out there and do a lot of great things to 00:56:08.829 --> 00:56:12.909 help yourself, help your community and your fellow 00:56:12.909 --> 00:56:16.230 Americans. Yeah. I mean, look at the incredible 00:56:16.230 --> 00:56:19.150 convict crews that we have working the wildfires. 00:56:19.900 --> 00:56:23.320 Rather than sitting in a box being told you're 00:56:23.320 --> 00:56:25.860 a naughty boy, they know that they've made a 00:56:25.860 --> 00:56:28.480 mistake. They're out there rectifying the mistake, 00:56:28.639 --> 00:56:31.239 being part of the solution. I love that model. 00:56:31.300 --> 00:56:32.760 I think it's phenomenal. And a lot of them end 00:56:32.760 --> 00:56:35.559 up going into federal and state wildland firefighting 00:56:35.559 --> 00:56:42.699 after that. Yeah. I love when a problem presents 00:56:42.699 --> 00:56:46.239 itself, seeing how a bunch of people can come 00:56:46.239 --> 00:56:51.960 together and solve. that problem and find the 00:56:51.960 --> 00:56:54.599 most expeditious way of getting whatever that 00:56:54.599 --> 00:56:58.079 problem is solved. I love that, seeing people 00:56:58.079 --> 00:57:00.480 work together. Yeah, absolutely. But again, that 00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:03.059 requires, I think, selfless leadership and moral 00:57:03.059 --> 00:57:05.340 courage. You know, if you're going to unify a 00:57:05.340 --> 00:57:08.960 nation rather than divide it, which being apolitical, 00:57:08.980 --> 00:57:11.059 just looking at it through a human's eyes, I 00:57:11.059 --> 00:57:12.960 would argue that's happened the last eight plus 00:57:12.960 --> 00:57:16.099 years easily. You know, I think the real leaders 00:57:16.099 --> 00:57:18.019 are starting to emerge now because we've seen 00:57:18.019 --> 00:57:21.739 how not to do it. So it's inspiring to see the 00:57:21.739 --> 00:57:23.099 ones that are actually bringing us together. 00:57:23.840 --> 00:57:31.059 Yeah, I admire folks that get out there and get 00:57:31.059 --> 00:57:35.440 it done. 100%. Well, speaking of mitigating extremely, 00:57:35.699 --> 00:57:40.519 you know, stressful situations. You're talking 00:57:40.519 --> 00:57:42.219 about obviously some of the deployments and you 00:57:42.219 --> 00:57:43.860 said you went into more kind of leadership and 00:57:43.860 --> 00:57:46.739 training again. Walk me through how you found 00:57:46.739 --> 00:57:49.440 yourself in UAE and then let's start kind of 00:57:49.440 --> 00:57:51.880 unpacking the Afghanistan withdrawal through 00:57:51.880 --> 00:57:58.679 your eyes. So I would say in two, I believe 2006, 00:57:59.219 --> 00:58:05.460 I was picked up to be an intern with air mobility 00:58:05.460 --> 00:58:08.679 command, you know, went there for three years, 00:58:08.719 --> 00:58:13.159 which, You know, got me going in, you know, in 00:58:13.159 --> 00:58:16.739 a direction that I wanted because I've just always 00:58:16.739 --> 00:58:19.920 enjoyed working with people and leading people. 00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:22.619 And that didn't guarantee anything. But, you 00:58:22.619 --> 00:58:24.480 know, because you're always being tested along 00:58:24.480 --> 00:58:27.840 the way, you pass the test to keep moving until 00:58:27.840 --> 00:58:30.599 you remove yourself or somebody removes you from 00:58:30.599 --> 00:58:34.409 that path. And I had a great time. I was at Air 00:58:34.409 --> 00:58:38.050 Mobility Command for three years. Me and my wife 00:58:38.050 --> 00:58:40.090 went off to Air Command and Staff College in 00:58:40.090 --> 00:58:44.989 Alabama. And from there, we went off to Hawaii. 00:58:45.130 --> 00:58:49.670 She was the number two in the squadron, and I 00:58:49.670 --> 00:58:51.809 was doing some other stuff in the wing there. 00:58:52.389 --> 00:58:55.030 And then she got picked up for Squadron Command. 00:58:55.309 --> 00:58:59.730 We went to California again, and I was the number 00:58:59.730 --> 00:59:02.739 two in the squadron. And then from there, I got 00:59:02.739 --> 00:59:04.920 picked up for command and she was a deputy group 00:59:04.920 --> 00:59:09.920 commander. And I was, you know, I did decent 00:59:09.920 --> 00:59:12.679 as a squadron commander and I got sent out here. 00:59:12.739 --> 00:59:15.659 My wife went to the Pentagon and I went to the 00:59:15.659 --> 00:59:20.420 Eisenhower School out at Fort McNair. And from 00:59:20.420 --> 00:59:23.039 that to the joint staff, that to a South Com 00:59:23.039 --> 00:59:30.329 gig in D .C. I was fortunate enough to get picked 00:59:30.329 --> 00:59:33.989 up. I volunteered for the desert because my son 00:59:33.989 --> 00:59:35.909 was going into his senior year of high school, 00:59:36.110 --> 00:59:42.989 and I didn't want to leave the area and take 00:59:42.989 --> 00:59:45.909 them along to where he'd lose his senior year 00:59:45.909 --> 00:59:48.289 with everybody he's gone to high school with. 00:59:48.909 --> 00:59:54.440 And I found out in 20, I believe, late 20. that 00:59:54.440 --> 00:59:57.199 I had been selected as the deputy commander for 00:59:57.199 --> 00:59:59.960 the 380th Air Expeditionary Wing in the United 00:59:59.960 --> 01:00:03.260 Arab Emirates, which I was jazzed about to get 01:00:03.260 --> 01:00:07.119 back to the Middle East. Hadn't been to UAE, 01:00:07.280 --> 01:00:10.719 only flown over it. And for it to be a combat 01:00:10.719 --> 01:00:14.940 wing, that was exciting. And, you know, starting 01:00:14.940 --> 01:00:19.099 in the winter and spring of 21, you know, lots 01:00:19.099 --> 01:00:22.320 of different temporary duties, learning how to 01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:27.699 fly the KC -10. Up at McGuire and different core, 01:00:27.719 --> 01:00:30.039 you know, pre -command training classes we had 01:00:30.039 --> 01:00:34.760 to do and Air Force's central orientation classes. 01:00:34.820 --> 01:00:37.099 We had to do the leadership package that was 01:00:37.099 --> 01:00:40.679 going to be out there. And then, you know, showed 01:00:40.679 --> 01:00:45.960 up at Al -Dafra just outside Abu Dhabi in the 01:00:45.960 --> 01:00:52.179 United Arab Emirates in mid -June of 21. So that's 01:00:52.179 --> 01:00:55.960 how I got there. So at that time, what was the 01:00:55.960 --> 01:01:01.360 sense as far as concluding Afghanistan? So it 01:01:01.360 --> 01:01:07.260 was interesting that that ball had been set in 01:01:07.260 --> 01:01:11.059 motion. Before we even arrived, we knew the retrograde 01:01:11.059 --> 01:01:15.179 was happening. We knew end of August was the 01:01:15.179 --> 01:01:22.199 deadline. It was just something that was there. 01:01:22.440 --> 01:01:27.000 And for me, it was just interesting for me. I'm 01:01:27.000 --> 01:01:31.280 the guy that loves the details, the backstory. 01:01:31.440 --> 01:01:34.300 And I can't remember the guy's name from that. 01:01:34.380 --> 01:01:37.579 He was a broadcast journalist. Was it Paul Harvey? 01:01:37.760 --> 01:01:40.860 And that's the rest of the story that talked 01:01:40.860 --> 01:01:44.579 about the details of significant events. And 01:01:44.579 --> 01:01:49.599 I just, it was interesting for me. Getting over 01:01:49.599 --> 01:01:55.400 there that first fall of 01 after 9 -11 and fast 01:01:55.400 --> 01:01:58.719 forward 20 years and here I am for the closeout 01:01:58.719 --> 01:02:02.579 of it. And what was interesting about that is 01:02:02.579 --> 01:02:09.420 an additional layer of, oh, wow, was when I went 01:02:09.420 --> 01:02:11.760 over after 9 -11, I was incredibly fortunate 01:02:11.760 --> 01:02:15.219 to be qualified with a great bunch of aviators. 01:02:16.350 --> 01:02:19.250 You wouldn't think a flying gas can would have 01:02:19.250 --> 01:02:22.590 special ops associated with it, but we flew a 01:02:22.590 --> 01:02:26.409 special ops air refueling mission tied to Air 01:02:26.409 --> 01:02:31.329 Force Special Operations Command, AC -130s. And 01:02:31.329 --> 01:02:36.170 what was interesting, the one star of our wing 01:02:36.170 --> 01:02:40.409 was an AC -130 pilot that had been there that 01:02:40.409 --> 01:02:43.530 first fall. I had been there that first fall 01:02:43.530 --> 01:02:47.739 as... the tanker for those guys and we would 01:02:47.739 --> 01:02:50.079 just sit and go i had to have refueled you in 01:02:50.079 --> 01:02:54.400 one of those mountain valleys had but so that 01:02:54.400 --> 01:02:57.599 that was interesting to have that leadership 01:02:57.599 --> 01:03:02.980 package that had been there that first fall had 01:03:02.980 --> 01:03:05.559 planes had connected didn't even know it now 01:03:05.559 --> 01:03:09.559 we're back here 20 years later seeing the closeout 01:03:09.559 --> 01:03:15.059 of something that was two decades ago two decades 01:03:15.059 --> 01:03:18.619 holy cow yeah it's crazy i mean if you think 01:03:18.619 --> 01:03:21.199 about world war ii obviously the british were 01:03:21.199 --> 01:03:23.639 in it a lot earlier than the us but i mean that 01:03:23.639 --> 01:03:27.019 was five years you know and then vietnam obviously 01:03:27.019 --> 01:03:29.340 that was a lot more drawn out but i guess the 01:03:29.340 --> 01:03:32.159 the height of it was you know a lot shorter than 01:03:32.159 --> 01:03:34.340 than afghanistan so you know when you look at 01:03:34.340 --> 01:03:37.380 other conflicts in in our kind of lifetime you 01:03:37.380 --> 01:03:40.559 know that that one i mean it just went on arguably 01:03:40.559 --> 01:03:43.909 just so so long and it's interesting Listening 01:03:43.909 --> 01:03:46.170 to some of the, especially the Green Berets that 01:03:46.170 --> 01:03:49.329 come on, they said, and this is obviously Monday 01:03:49.329 --> 01:03:51.309 morning quarterbacking it, but if they could 01:03:51.309 --> 01:03:54.610 do it again, they would go in, they would hunt 01:03:54.610 --> 01:03:57.230 the training camps, they would hunt the main 01:03:57.230 --> 01:03:59.489 targets, they would obviously train up some of 01:03:59.489 --> 01:04:02.489 the forces, and then their thing was like 18 01:04:02.489 --> 01:04:06.250 months later, they'd be out again. And then obviously 01:04:06.250 --> 01:04:08.469 that's a lot longer than we actually were there 01:04:08.469 --> 01:04:11.710 in the end. Yeah, Matt Coleman thinks we should 01:04:11.710 --> 01:04:15.679 have been out of there. well before uh our actual 01:04:15.679 --> 01:04:20.159 exit when that would have been i don't know but 01:04:20.159 --> 01:04:23.460 we should i think we should have been out of 01:04:23.460 --> 01:04:27.880 there much sooner but i'm just you know and it's 01:04:27.880 --> 01:04:30.880 funny sitting back since i've come home from 01:04:30.880 --> 01:04:34.719 the desert holy cow there's the spectrum it's 01:04:34.719 --> 01:04:38.440 just it's fun to just sit back sometimes and 01:04:38.440 --> 01:04:41.679 listen because they're There are very passionate 01:04:41.679 --> 01:04:45.760 views on both sides of the argument on our withdrawal 01:04:45.760 --> 01:04:49.739 from Afghanistan. Some of them have a lot of 01:04:49.739 --> 01:04:53.940 venom. Some of them have a lot of sadness, but 01:04:53.940 --> 01:04:58.659 everything else in between. And yeah, it's kind 01:04:58.659 --> 01:05:02.199 of interesting how you can have such diposing 01:05:02.199 --> 01:05:06.059 thoughts and views on that event that happened 01:05:06.059 --> 01:05:09.000 that summer. Yeah, I mean, from what I've seen 01:05:09.000 --> 01:05:11.780 from the people that have come on here, it's 01:05:11.780 --> 01:05:14.639 less about the time that we were there and more 01:05:14.639 --> 01:05:16.920 about how we left and certainly the people that 01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:19.320 we left behind. These men and women that had 01:05:19.320 --> 01:05:21.920 literally risked their lives to obviously protect 01:05:21.920 --> 01:05:24.380 their own country and then also support the allies 01:05:24.380 --> 01:05:27.500 that were, you know, somewhat discarded when 01:05:27.500 --> 01:05:38.059 everything was up sticks. writing a book, have 01:05:38.059 --> 01:05:41.820 the manuscript, working with an editor and all 01:05:41.820 --> 01:05:44.000 that good stuff, trying to find somebody to publish 01:05:44.000 --> 01:05:47.860 it. But it's interesting when you look at it. 01:05:48.000 --> 01:05:53.860 From my view, I was the deputy commander of a 01:05:53.860 --> 01:05:56.860 combat wing. We were putting up over 70 % of 01:05:56.860 --> 01:06:01.519 the combat air power over the country. So I was 01:06:01.519 --> 01:06:06.349 not necessarily focused or even... read in on 01:06:06.349 --> 01:06:09.369 a lot of the decision making that went into how 01:06:09.369 --> 01:06:12.389 that happened. You know, for me, just being a 01:06:12.389 --> 01:06:14.849 good colonel, well, the president says we're 01:06:14.849 --> 01:06:18.190 out by then. Sweet. Everything trickles down 01:06:18.190 --> 01:06:21.030 from there. This is your piece, your piece, your 01:06:21.030 --> 01:06:25.250 piece, your piece. And early summer, midsummer, 01:06:25.389 --> 01:06:30.889 my job was helping my commander and all the commanders 01:06:30.889 --> 01:06:35.590 below us. provide the air powered and ensure 01:06:35.590 --> 01:06:39.110 everybody on the ground there was safe. So it's 01:06:39.110 --> 01:06:43.670 hard for me to look at that because there's just 01:06:43.670 --> 01:06:47.230 a lot I don't know. I would love to give benefit 01:06:47.230 --> 01:06:49.429 of the doubt. I'm a glasses three quarters full 01:06:49.429 --> 01:06:53.969 person, honestly. And in all honesty, that remaining 01:06:53.969 --> 01:06:57.929 25 % is thick black tar reality. So that's what 01:06:57.929 --> 01:07:01.340 keeps that other three quarters in check. I would 01:07:01.340 --> 01:07:06.420 love to believe that the people that made those 01:07:06.420 --> 01:07:09.119 decisions had all the right information in front 01:07:09.119 --> 01:07:12.599 of them and that everything was going to work 01:07:12.599 --> 01:07:15.880 properly. We had to go. The previous administration 01:07:15.880 --> 01:07:21.360 had made the motions or at least talked about 01:07:21.360 --> 01:07:25.360 our withdrawal. That administration came in. 01:07:25.880 --> 01:07:28.079 And actually drew a line in the sand, whether 01:07:28.079 --> 01:07:30.219 that's right or wrong. I don't know. There are 01:07:30.219 --> 01:07:31.980 folks a lot smarter than me that could probably 01:07:31.980 --> 01:07:37.960 answer that better. But, I mean, for me, I'm 01:07:37.960 --> 01:07:40.079 going to say when you look at the whole picture, 01:07:40.199 --> 01:07:42.619 a colonel in a wing isn't necessarily tactical. 01:07:42.960 --> 01:07:45.440 But when you look at the full scope of that, 01:07:45.619 --> 01:07:49.019 I would almost consider myself at a tactical 01:07:49.019 --> 01:07:54.219 level getting aircraft up. So, God, I hope those 01:07:54.219 --> 01:07:59.079 decisions were done. with an educated mind. If 01:07:59.079 --> 01:08:00.460 you know what I'm talking about with all the 01:08:00.460 --> 01:08:04.079 right information, it's just, that is such a 01:08:04.079 --> 01:08:10.340 complex time. And so many, so many things happen. 01:08:10.400 --> 01:08:14.280 So many people affected the loss of those Marines, 01:08:14.599 --> 01:08:18.199 the loss of all the people just trying to get 01:08:18.199 --> 01:08:21.020 out of there and get a better life. It's man, 01:08:21.159 --> 01:08:23.930 it's complicated. Well, let's talk about what 01:08:23.930 --> 01:08:26.949 you do know then. So you're stationed at UAE, 01:08:27.210 --> 01:08:29.569 you know, what is the mission that you start 01:08:29.569 --> 01:08:32.329 developing? And then let's talk about obviously 01:08:32.329 --> 01:08:34.550 the overwhelming element of the people that you 01:08:34.550 --> 01:08:42.109 actually end up bringing back. So I, you know, 01:08:42.109 --> 01:08:44.590 like I said, we were completely focused on getting 01:08:44.590 --> 01:08:47.750 aircraft in the air. to protect everybody on 01:08:47.750 --> 01:08:50.409 the ground, provide air refueling to all the 01:08:50.409 --> 01:08:56.390 aircraft up there. And, you know, I'd fly every 01:08:56.390 --> 01:09:01.529 Friday just to stay current and to understand 01:09:01.529 --> 01:09:05.050 our mission as it's going on. But it's funny. 01:09:05.170 --> 01:09:08.689 I remember as that summer progressed, we pushed 01:09:08.689 --> 01:09:12.609 through COVID. COVID hit the Middle East hard 01:09:12.609 --> 01:09:16.710 that summer. And it's funny. June and July, we 01:09:16.710 --> 01:09:19.489 were so focused on COVID, it was ridiculous. 01:09:19.970 --> 01:09:25.010 We wound up putting 800 of our people out of 01:09:25.010 --> 01:09:28.850 3 ,100 into whether it be isolation or quarantine 01:09:28.850 --> 01:09:32.029 tents. We had to build compounds to support the 01:09:32.029 --> 01:09:35.289 amount of sick people we had. Remember what I 01:09:35.289 --> 01:09:38.409 said earlier about the ingenuity of people coming 01:09:38.409 --> 01:09:41.569 together to solve problems, watching how our 01:09:41.569 --> 01:09:45.449 medical group and our mission support group I 01:09:45.449 --> 01:09:50.270 mean, they were led by two amazing colonels and 01:09:50.270 --> 01:09:53.789 how they came together to solve how are we caring 01:09:53.789 --> 01:09:55.970 for all these people? How are we feeding them? 01:09:56.310 --> 01:09:59.210 How are we keeping up their morale? But on top 01:09:59.210 --> 01:10:02.149 of that, our maintenance group, our ops group, 01:10:02.390 --> 01:10:06.930 how in the hell I've lost half my shop that repairs 01:10:06.930 --> 01:10:11.829 X on that plane. I've lost this. How they kept 01:10:11.829 --> 01:10:15.420 that mission moving. With so many sick people. 01:10:15.520 --> 01:10:19.039 So we were focusing on that forever. We started 01:10:19.039 --> 01:10:22.699 coming out of the backside of that. And I remember 01:10:22.699 --> 01:10:26.739 there being more talks, the retrograde retrogrades 01:10:26.739 --> 01:10:29.300 going. We had a lot of the equipment they were 01:10:29.300 --> 01:10:32.199 bringing out of the country fly through Abu Dhabi. 01:10:32.720 --> 01:10:36.079 Well, through Al Dhafra. So our mission support 01:10:36.079 --> 01:10:38.960 group was busting their humps, getting that stuff 01:10:38.960 --> 01:10:43.539 going. We started getting more and more aircraft 01:10:43.539 --> 01:10:47.560 in. And our maintenance group and ops group, 01:10:47.659 --> 01:10:52.279 those men and women busted their asses in that 01:10:52.279 --> 01:10:55.140 summer heat, you know, getting all those planes 01:10:55.140 --> 01:10:58.479 up. And it was just impressive. Then we started 01:10:58.479 --> 01:11:03.859 to hear, all right, hey, start thinking about 01:11:03.859 --> 01:11:07.079 if a noncombatant evacuation operation kicks 01:11:07.079 --> 01:11:10.760 off. If a NEO kicks off. how are we going to 01:11:10.760 --> 01:11:15.760 do that where are they going to go and i remember 01:11:15.760 --> 01:11:18.920 the o6s first started you know the deputy commanders 01:11:18.920 --> 01:11:24.779 we started sitting in and oh god how do i say 01:11:24.779 --> 01:11:33.159 this tactfully it was a goat rope um i that's 01:11:33.159 --> 01:11:35.560 just the clearest way i could put it you know 01:11:35.560 --> 01:11:39.760 okay aldofra you're gonna take x number in You 01:11:39.760 --> 01:11:42.619 know, Base X in Jordan, you're going to take 01:11:42.619 --> 01:11:48.779 this many in. And I know you can't see if you're 01:11:48.779 --> 01:11:50.840 listening. I'm putting my hand up like I'm on 01:11:50.840 --> 01:11:54.479 a video teleconference. Okay, Colonel Coleman, 01:11:54.560 --> 01:12:00.079 go. Have you talked to the Emiratis if they'll 01:12:00.079 --> 01:12:04.279 allow that? Well, no. You kind of need to talk 01:12:04.279 --> 01:12:07.899 to them. And, you know, it was just. A lot of 01:12:07.899 --> 01:12:11.539 running in circles. And then one by one, you 01:12:11.539 --> 01:12:14.380 started seeing the deputy commanders popping 01:12:14.380 --> 01:12:16.260 off. And there'd be a lieutenant colonel in there 01:12:16.260 --> 01:12:18.920 on the next meeting. I had a super solid lieutenant 01:12:18.920 --> 01:12:21.760 colonel I threw in there. And I'm like, let me 01:12:21.760 --> 01:12:26.399 know if anything important happens. So then I 01:12:26.399 --> 01:12:30.979 remember province after province started falling. 01:12:33.880 --> 01:12:41.260 I just remember the intensity of our video teleconferences 01:12:41.260 --> 01:12:45.520 with the CFAC, the three -star in charge of air 01:12:45.520 --> 01:12:51.819 for CENTCOM. And he was an amazing guy. His ability 01:12:51.819 --> 01:13:00.180 to retain information was amazing. But he did 01:13:00.180 --> 01:13:02.779 a phenomenal job getting everybody on those. 01:13:03.289 --> 01:13:07.810 conferences talking. And then those went from 01:13:07.810 --> 01:13:11.750 a few times a week to almost every day. And we 01:13:11.750 --> 01:13:13.729 knew things were getting bad in Afghanistan. 01:13:14.449 --> 01:13:18.649 Taliban, they're showing themselves more. More 01:13:18.649 --> 01:13:23.010 provinces are falling. And I remember I took 01:13:23.010 --> 01:13:29.069 off for a KC -10 flight. I'm sorry, the NEO kicked 01:13:29.069 --> 01:13:33.699 off. I didn't fully know what was going on in 01:13:33.699 --> 01:13:35.819 other places because once the NEO kicked off, 01:13:35.880 --> 01:13:40.579 we were so focused on our processes, getting 01:13:40.579 --> 01:13:44.399 aircraft in the air, and doing what we had to 01:13:44.399 --> 01:13:47.880 do to support the CFAC over Afghanistan. And 01:13:47.880 --> 01:13:50.359 I remember I took a KC -10 flight on a Friday. 01:13:50.399 --> 01:13:54.619 The NEO had been going now for about five, six 01:13:54.619 --> 01:14:02.050 days. And I landed. Just like I always did. I 01:14:02.050 --> 01:14:04.449 had my personal phone and I had my work phone. 01:14:04.909 --> 01:14:09.529 Turned them both on. Nothing. Sweet. Put them 01:14:09.529 --> 01:14:12.710 in my pockets. We all went to the flight kitchen 01:14:12.710 --> 01:14:16.930 in Motown. And I remember sitting down to eat. 01:14:17.489 --> 01:14:20.289 I didn't even get my first bite in and both my 01:14:20.289 --> 01:14:23.189 phones started blowing up. So I wasn't even going 01:14:23.189 --> 01:14:25.350 to try and answer everything. And I called. I 01:14:25.350 --> 01:14:27.289 was like, hey, what's going on? You need to come 01:14:27.289 --> 01:14:31.779 in now. It was our director of staff. OK, drove 01:14:31.779 --> 01:14:36.600 over to the wing and a CFAC head. Things had 01:14:36.600 --> 01:14:40.560 gotten bad enough that the CFAC had stood up 01:14:40.560 --> 01:14:43.380 the crisis action team, which is your collection 01:14:43.380 --> 01:14:46.800 of senior leaders that oversee all key actions 01:14:46.800 --> 01:14:50.859 in a wing when emergencies happen. And then they 01:14:50.859 --> 01:14:54.239 stood up all their emergency operation centers, 01:14:54.340 --> 01:14:57.199 which is a mission support group focus thing. 01:14:57.359 --> 01:15:00.430 It's all your. you know your civil engineers 01:15:00.430 --> 01:15:04.350 the bomb squads the fire department you know 01:15:04.350 --> 01:15:06.949 imagine a massive emergency happening on the 01:15:06.949 --> 01:15:09.350 base they're the ones that handle it and then 01:15:09.350 --> 01:15:12.149 the crisis action team above it does the bigger 01:15:12.149 --> 01:15:15.329 picture so all that stuff stood up i was like 01:15:15.329 --> 01:15:18.350 what the hell's going on so we get back i start 01:15:18.350 --> 01:15:21.829 getting bits and pieces of what's going on and 01:15:21.829 --> 01:15:26.050 things that how you deed uh and it's funny i 01:15:26.050 --> 01:15:28.270 knew planes had been going there with refugees 01:15:28.270 --> 01:15:31.409 i don't fully remember when that decision was 01:15:31.409 --> 01:15:33.670 made but i remember they're only supposed to 01:15:33.670 --> 01:15:35.909 get a couple thousand and that number just kept 01:15:35.909 --> 01:15:41.489 climbing and climbing and climbing and i was 01:15:41.489 --> 01:15:44.930 like okay you know my i i'd been up since four 01:15:44.930 --> 01:15:46.829 in the morning so i'd flown all day the boss 01:15:46.829 --> 01:15:50.149 is in his office i'm in mine and i just remembered 01:15:50.149 --> 01:15:55.189 my classified phone starts ringing I had no idea 01:15:55.189 --> 01:15:57.409 who it was. You know, at that point I knew all 01:15:57.409 --> 01:16:00.890 the important numbers and that was a dude from 01:16:00.890 --> 01:16:04.109 CENTCOM calling. How many, how many refugees 01:16:04.109 --> 01:16:08.609 can you take right now? What the hell is going 01:16:08.609 --> 01:16:12.010 on? And it's like, I can't give me 10 minutes, 01:16:12.130 --> 01:16:15.229 figure it out. Okay. We can take 400 because 01:16:15.229 --> 01:16:17.729 that's how much we could take in all those 10 01:16:17.729 --> 01:16:19.869 cities. I told you we stood up for all the COVID 01:16:19.869 --> 01:16:24.180 folks. And then. I'm like, OK. I called him back, 01:16:24.199 --> 01:16:26.539 said we can take 400, but I need to talk to my 01:16:26.539 --> 01:16:29.640 boss. He was like, OK. He asked all the questions 01:16:29.640 --> 01:16:32.279 like a commander would. Hey, what about this? 01:16:32.279 --> 01:16:33.579 What about this? What about this? And I said, 01:16:33.600 --> 01:16:36.159 worked all that. Keep doing what you're doing. 01:16:36.340 --> 01:16:38.539 I'll handle this. Just tell him we can take 400. 01:16:39.140 --> 01:16:41.659 I told that guy from CENTCOM we can take 400. 01:16:42.279 --> 01:16:47.220 Great. Expect that in two hours. What the? More 01:16:47.220 --> 01:16:50.180 expletives. I walked across the hall. He said. 01:16:50.779 --> 01:16:53.439 The guy said, we have them in two hours. I'm 01:16:53.439 --> 01:16:56.340 going to get everybody rolling. So we start jumping 01:16:56.340 --> 01:16:59.600 through our backsides, preparing a base to receive 01:16:59.600 --> 01:17:04.100 400 Afghan refugees. And that's when I knew things 01:17:04.100 --> 01:17:06.100 were starting. As I said, we're starting to get 01:17:06.100 --> 01:17:10.020 really bad at Al Udeid because they were trying 01:17:10.020 --> 01:17:13.520 to take some of the pressure off of them because 01:17:13.520 --> 01:17:16.180 they had received so many refugees. They were 01:17:16.180 --> 01:17:19.279 having a hard time taking care of them. Well, 01:17:19.340 --> 01:17:22.260 I think the plane was on short final when the 01:17:22.260 --> 01:17:24.680 Emirati said, no, you're not landing here because 01:17:24.680 --> 01:17:29.720 our base was within their base. And, you know, 01:17:29.720 --> 01:17:33.460 my boss walked in and said, yeah, the embassy 01:17:33.460 --> 01:17:35.039 just called saying they're not going to let them 01:17:35.039 --> 01:17:40.399 on. So we spun everybody down and, you know, 01:17:40.399 --> 01:17:43.979 broke it off, went to bed for the night. And 01:17:43.979 --> 01:17:48.409 the next day things, I wound up going. uh with 01:17:48.409 --> 01:17:52.649 a team of 13 at the embassy's request out to 01:17:52.649 --> 01:17:57.029 abu dhabi international up near dubai the emiratis 01:17:57.029 --> 01:17:59.989 have humanitarian city and that was there for 01:17:59.989 --> 01:18:04.189 a refugee type scenario so good on the emiratis 01:18:04.189 --> 01:18:06.449 they're like okay we're gonna help where we can 01:18:06.449 --> 01:18:12.569 uh and the emiratis are awesome and i was out 01:18:12.569 --> 01:18:15.529 there they were they had a c -17 i was out there 01:18:16.109 --> 01:18:19.409 me and a handful of people, we helped with the 01:18:19.409 --> 01:18:25.750 first C -17 of 408 Afghans into the country. 01:18:26.029 --> 01:18:32.050 And that was eye -opening to see the people as 01:18:32.050 --> 01:18:34.989 they came off. You could just see the fear. You 01:18:34.989 --> 01:18:38.890 could see the unease. And just as they were processing 01:18:38.890 --> 01:18:41.750 through, you know, talking to some of them, it's 01:18:41.750 --> 01:18:44.930 like I found out why they looked so scared. One, 01:18:45.780 --> 01:18:48.539 They were trying to see where their families 01:18:48.539 --> 01:18:51.199 were because one person would come out. They 01:18:51.199 --> 01:18:54.079 didn't know if they made it onto the plane. They 01:18:54.079 --> 01:18:55.800 were afraid that if they didn't have the right 01:18:55.800 --> 01:18:57.880 documentation, they were getting sent back to 01:18:57.880 --> 01:19:00.680 Afghanistan. They were afraid that if they said 01:19:00.680 --> 01:19:02.680 the wrong thing, they were getting sent back 01:19:02.680 --> 01:19:09.779 to Afghanistan. So that was a little bit of foreshadowing 01:19:09.779 --> 01:19:12.020 of what was to come that I didn't know what was 01:19:12.020 --> 01:19:15.439 to come. helping all those folks get into the 01:19:15.439 --> 01:19:17.960 country. And I didn't get back to the, to the 01:19:17.960 --> 01:19:20.439 base, I don't think until about three in the 01:19:20.439 --> 01:19:24.539 morning. And then I was up that morning and, 01:19:24.579 --> 01:19:27.800 you know, already getting a nice healthy dose 01:19:27.800 --> 01:19:31.899 of sleep, sleep debt building. And, you know, 01:19:31.899 --> 01:19:33.659 it's just the way I'm wired. I kept telling my 01:19:33.659 --> 01:19:36.239 boss, Hey, if Al Udeid needs help, let me know. 01:19:36.340 --> 01:19:39.079 I'll go. And he's like, look, I need you here. 01:19:39.579 --> 01:19:42.850 They got it. We need to focus on getting all 01:19:42.850 --> 01:19:45.189 these planes in the sky. Got it. Because that 01:19:45.189 --> 01:19:49.310 is very, very important. And I just remember 01:19:49.310 --> 01:19:54.770 we were on another secure video teleconference 01:19:54.770 --> 01:20:00.470 not too long after that. And it was bad. The 01:20:00.470 --> 01:20:03.989 state of affairs at Al Udeid, they were very 01:20:03.989 --> 01:20:08.149 bad. And I had no idea how bad. We just knew 01:20:08.149 --> 01:20:15.079 they were bad. That ended. Boss went back to 01:20:15.079 --> 01:20:17.300 his office because all the wing commanders were 01:20:17.300 --> 01:20:20.920 having their own separate call with the CFAC, 01:20:20.920 --> 01:20:23.739 the three star. And I was seeing people out of 01:20:23.739 --> 01:20:26.720 the building. And then he came out, motioned 01:20:26.720 --> 01:20:28.800 me to come down the hall to him where his office 01:20:28.800 --> 01:20:32.020 was. He's like, well, you're going, you're leaving. 01:20:32.279 --> 01:20:34.199 God, this was in the evening. He was, you're 01:20:34.199 --> 01:20:39.140 leaving tomorrow. So that's how I got to, you 01:20:39.140 --> 01:20:42.020 know, right up before. I was on a plane heading 01:20:42.020 --> 01:20:44.920 over to Al Udeid with a bunch of people. You 01:20:44.920 --> 01:20:47.539 mentioned about the Emiratis having humanitarian 01:20:47.539 --> 01:20:50.779 city. Talk to me about the altruism of that country. 01:20:54.600 --> 01:20:57.159 In what way? What do you want to know about the 01:20:57.159 --> 01:21:02.260 Emiratis? I think having these conflicts in the 01:21:02.260 --> 01:21:05.260 Middle East, we like to just kind of bunch everyone 01:21:05.260 --> 01:21:07.560 together, you know, and blame them for the same 01:21:07.560 --> 01:21:10.699 thing. I was actually in Dubai just over a year 01:21:10.699 --> 01:21:12.619 ago, went around with a bunch of special operations 01:21:12.619 --> 01:21:14.819 guys and this round the world thing that we did 01:21:14.819 --> 01:21:17.899 and just saw, you know, beautiful country. And 01:21:17.899 --> 01:21:19.920 obviously, you know, like every country, there's 01:21:19.920 --> 01:21:21.560 good people, bad people, wealthy people, poor 01:21:21.560 --> 01:21:24.500 people. But I think it's important if there's 01:21:24.500 --> 01:21:29.300 an element of. compassion and empathy and altruism 01:21:29.300 --> 01:21:31.779 that it's kind of held up. Just like I said, 01:21:31.819 --> 01:21:33.699 kindness in the battlefield when it's wearing 01:21:33.699 --> 01:21:37.199 an American uniform. Educate us on the fact that 01:21:37.199 --> 01:21:40.979 these Emiratis have created an area for refugees 01:21:40.979 --> 01:21:45.579 in their country. Yeah. Again, I love the country. 01:21:45.800 --> 01:21:48.960 I love the people. I really do. They're great, 01:21:49.020 --> 01:21:53.279 kind people. generous people they're fun a lot 01:21:53.279 --> 01:21:55.979 of the amiratis i interacted with on the base 01:21:55.979 --> 01:22:00.180 a lot of their uh colonels and wing commanders 01:22:00.180 --> 01:22:03.140 across the base one of them one of their fighter 01:22:03.140 --> 01:22:06.880 commanders had been at eisenhower so you know 01:22:06.880 --> 01:22:09.520 i'd gone over to his his wing we sat around and 01:22:09.520 --> 01:22:12.279 talked for a while they are amazing people they're 01:22:12.279 --> 01:22:17.920 a great ally the fact that they had constructed 01:22:19.079 --> 01:22:23.760 a human and a humanitarian city in the event 01:22:23.760 --> 01:22:27.079 of stuff like this to happen and it's funny i 01:22:27.079 --> 01:22:32.000 talk about it in my book uh they they were so 01:22:32.000 --> 01:22:34.920 focused that night when we were down there with 01:22:34.920 --> 01:22:37.300 the embassy i had initially brought 13 people 01:22:37.300 --> 01:22:39.020 with me because we didn't know what to expect 01:22:39.020 --> 01:22:43.520 i brought an airfield guy i brought a gal that 01:22:43.520 --> 01:22:49.369 had a background in uh HR type stuff and, you 01:22:49.369 --> 01:22:51.890 know, just a bunch of different people. But then 01:22:51.890 --> 01:22:57.510 the Emiratis, they wanted it to be their show. 01:22:58.270 --> 01:23:02.710 And us, my team and the embassy, we did not take 01:23:02.710 --> 01:23:05.829 that as a ding in the slightest. It's their country. 01:23:06.510 --> 01:23:10.050 They want to help people and they did not want 01:23:10.050 --> 01:23:12.050 it. They didn't want to have that perception 01:23:12.050 --> 01:23:14.529 of, well, it's the Americans. They're here getting 01:23:14.529 --> 01:23:16.560 in our way. You know, they wanted to show the 01:23:16.560 --> 01:23:19.159 global stage, look, we're taking care of people 01:23:19.159 --> 01:23:23.140 and we're capable of it. And I was impressed 01:23:23.140 --> 01:23:26.239 as hell watching them that night work. They kept 01:23:26.239 --> 01:23:29.840 us informed. We kept them informed. We were there 01:23:29.840 --> 01:23:32.119 to help them when they needed it. They asked 01:23:32.119 --> 01:23:36.300 a lot of great questions at the right time. And 01:23:36.300 --> 01:23:39.899 the way that whole processing was set up that 01:23:39.899 --> 01:23:43.399 first night at the airport, bringing in those. 01:23:44.090 --> 01:23:48.869 those poor refugees um just the way it was set 01:23:48.869 --> 01:23:53.130 up it wasn't the fastest and as and there were 01:23:53.130 --> 01:23:57.310 jets still coming and they they came to us this 01:23:57.310 --> 01:24:02.550 isn't working how can we do this faster and the 01:24:02.550 --> 01:24:06.930 army one star phenomenal human being sdo dat 01:24:06.930 --> 01:24:12.069 there at the embassy um he was like get us access 01:24:12.069 --> 01:24:16.930 to humanitarian cities so we can help you with 01:24:16.930 --> 01:24:19.310 a lot of these refugees with their screening 01:24:19.310 --> 01:24:22.770 and in processing into the country and for follow 01:24:22.770 --> 01:24:25.949 -on movement. And they're like, great, let us 01:24:25.949 --> 01:24:28.770 work it. Half hour later, they came back, done. 01:24:29.210 --> 01:24:36.310 And process just flew. So they were great in 01:24:36.310 --> 01:24:40.550 taking care of people in need. Beautiful. And 01:24:40.550 --> 01:24:43.590 it was the same thing with the Qataris once we 01:24:43.590 --> 01:24:47.289 get over to that. I mean, both of those countries 01:24:47.289 --> 01:24:53.810 helping fellow Muslims and helping, I mean, even 01:24:53.810 --> 01:24:57.270 beyond that, helping fellow human beings that 01:24:57.270 --> 01:25:00.590 were in dire straits. So the Emiratis and the 01:25:00.590 --> 01:25:05.100 Qataris. did amazing things helping those people 01:25:05.100 --> 01:25:06.859 well it circles around what we were talking about 01:25:06.859 --> 01:25:09.399 earlier you know that compassion that sense of 01:25:09.399 --> 01:25:11.560 community bringing people together communication 01:25:11.560 --> 01:25:16.000 the miracles happen when you do that yes yes 01:25:16.000 --> 01:25:20.659 and miracles do happen and all again i'm when 01:25:20.659 --> 01:25:23.579 i say what i was about to say was all those petty 01:25:23.579 --> 01:25:27.819 differences fall to the wayside you know i don't 01:25:27.819 --> 01:25:30.880 i don't want to imply that we had issues with 01:25:30.880 --> 01:25:33.319 each other it's just you know the most simplest 01:25:33.319 --> 01:25:35.920 of definitions that you know even the best of 01:25:35.920 --> 01:25:38.840 friends have little things that annoy the hell 01:25:38.840 --> 01:25:41.779 out of each other you know but when when shit 01:25:41.779 --> 01:25:45.079 goes down all right all that silliness is aside 01:25:45.079 --> 01:25:49.479 we're brothers we're sisters let's get this done 01:25:49.479 --> 01:25:52.520 and it was amazing to watch that i can imagine 01:25:52.520 --> 01:25:55.619 well you mentioned before about expecting 2000 01:25:55.619 --> 01:25:58.579 that isn't actually what happened so walk us 01:25:58.579 --> 01:26:01.449 through you know, what ultimately happened and 01:26:01.449 --> 01:26:04.149 the magnitude of the evacuation you were able 01:26:04.149 --> 01:26:11.409 to help facilitate? So what's funny is as once 01:26:11.409 --> 01:26:15.510 the NEO kicked off, like I said, I mean, I was, 01:26:15.529 --> 01:26:18.210 I think it was the 14th that kicked off, August 01:26:18.210 --> 01:26:22.170 14th of 20. That's just out of the cobwebs of 01:26:22.170 --> 01:26:24.770 my head. And I think I was flying on the 20th. 01:26:24.949 --> 01:26:28.310 So for it to get as bad as it did in six days. 01:26:31.170 --> 01:26:35.350 They had continuously been requesting, hey, we 01:26:35.350 --> 01:26:41.310 need folks from your logistics, well, from your 01:26:41.310 --> 01:26:43.829 squadrons that have the vehicles. We need folks 01:26:43.829 --> 01:26:48.250 that are qualified to drive buses. And I just 01:26:48.250 --> 01:26:51.029 remember at that time, of all the stuff you need, 01:26:51.149 --> 01:26:54.279 why do you need people to drive? Hey, we need 01:26:54.279 --> 01:26:56.520 people with this specialty. Hey, we need people 01:26:56.520 --> 01:26:58.859 with this specialty. And we were sending them. 01:26:59.020 --> 01:27:02.359 And then it got to the point they were physically 01:27:02.359 --> 01:27:07.939 requesting buses. Why? Okay. Okay. Whatever. 01:27:08.039 --> 01:27:10.579 Well, all the other bases in the region were 01:27:10.579 --> 01:27:16.659 doing what they could. And then I remember the 01:27:16.659 --> 01:27:20.760 wing commander who. I cannot say enough about 01:27:20.760 --> 01:27:23.739 IUD's Wayne Commander, amazing human being and 01:27:23.739 --> 01:27:30.819 amazing leader. I remember seeing him break down 01:27:30.819 --> 01:27:33.279 on one of the video conferences, and I remember 01:27:33.279 --> 01:27:36.479 him saying, look, when the dust settles, we need 01:27:36.479 --> 01:27:41.020 mental health professionals here. And if you 01:27:41.020 --> 01:27:44.220 knew who the CFAC was at that time, man, he was 01:27:44.220 --> 01:27:47.920 freaking awesome. He didn't even... I'm heavily 01:27:47.920 --> 01:27:51.279 paraphrasing for him. When the dust settles, 01:27:51.340 --> 01:27:55.359 wing commanders, get mental health professionals 01:27:55.359 --> 01:27:58.920 together now and get them there tomorrow. I will 01:27:58.920 --> 01:28:02.020 free up the intra -theater airlift. I mean, he 01:28:02.020 --> 01:28:04.720 was not going to let anybody suffer. If you needed 01:28:04.720 --> 01:28:08.779 something, it was there. And that's how it was 01:28:08.779 --> 01:28:12.300 mutual support through the whole thing. Al Udeid 01:28:12.300 --> 01:28:15.899 was in need and every base in that region. Even 01:28:15.899 --> 01:28:19.119 if the CFAC hadn't even said that, I guarantee 01:28:19.119 --> 01:28:22.560 you every wing would have been like, hey, I've 01:28:22.560 --> 01:28:24.520 got people. Can I get them there to help you? 01:28:24.640 --> 01:28:31.579 So it was just amazing to watch that. Man, I 01:28:31.579 --> 01:28:36.500 was just thinking that. Sorry. So we, I just, 01:28:36.539 --> 01:28:39.720 it was crazy. I just remember once we finally 01:28:39.720 --> 01:28:42.399 got out there, we had already sent all these 01:28:42.399 --> 01:28:46.989 people in the previous days. I think I was bringing 01:28:46.989 --> 01:28:54.090 about four field grade officers with me because 01:28:54.090 --> 01:28:57.409 they had specifically requested, hey, we want 01:28:57.409 --> 01:29:00.930 people that are current squadron commanders or 01:29:00.930 --> 01:29:04.770 graduated squadron commanders. And that was because 01:29:04.770 --> 01:29:09.739 throughout how you deed. We didn't call them 01:29:09.739 --> 01:29:11.899 camps because of the negative connotation of 01:29:11.899 --> 01:29:13.819 that, so we called them operating locations. 01:29:14.239 --> 01:29:20.680 They had eight operating locations of... seven 01:29:20.680 --> 01:29:22.359 or eight depending on how you want to count it 01:29:22.359 --> 01:29:24.979 of where they were keeping the afghan refugees 01:29:24.979 --> 01:29:28.300 day shift night shift and the people they wanted 01:29:28.300 --> 01:29:31.340 running them you know you always military hierarchy 01:29:31.340 --> 01:29:33.439 you always have to have that one person in charge 01:29:33.439 --> 01:29:36.619 and they wanted it to be somebody that had commanded 01:29:36.619 --> 01:29:40.300 or was commanding that understood how to make 01:29:40.300 --> 01:29:44.840 decisions in crisis so i had three or four of 01:29:44.840 --> 01:29:51.229 those with me and a whole bunch of uh We call 01:29:51.229 --> 01:29:53.750 them defenders coming with us. I think we had 01:29:53.750 --> 01:29:55.890 50 some odd folks. And I remember when we got 01:29:55.890 --> 01:29:59.390 bussed out to a C -130, it was late at night. 01:30:00.149 --> 01:30:02.810 I was sitting there and they had dropped in at 01:30:02.810 --> 01:30:05.630 another base and picked people up. And as I'm 01:30:05.630 --> 01:30:08.770 standing there watching all these folks from 01:30:08.770 --> 01:30:10.449 my base going on there, I'm just sitting there 01:30:10.449 --> 01:30:14.710 thinking, how in the hell C -130s aren't that 01:30:14.710 --> 01:30:17.789 big? How are they fitting all these people in 01:30:17.789 --> 01:30:21.050 there? And I was the last guy to go up there. 01:30:21.170 --> 01:30:23.289 And I remember getting up the ramp. I was like, 01:30:23.350 --> 01:30:27.770 oh, shit, that's how. They were floor loading 01:30:27.770 --> 01:30:30.649 us. They had removed all the stuff out of there. 01:30:30.850 --> 01:30:35.130 And you sat ass cheek to ass cheek, forward bulkhead 01:30:35.130 --> 01:30:40.189 all the way back to the ramp. And they ran a 01:30:40.189 --> 01:30:43.930 strap and cinched you down over your lap. I mean, 01:30:43.949 --> 01:30:47.930 this was literally. emergency procedure stuff 01:30:47.930 --> 01:30:51.130 that's in your books that prior to this you've 01:30:51.130 --> 01:30:55.210 read about like if you ever had I mean maybe 01:30:55.210 --> 01:30:57.850 read about as you glossed over in your book as 01:30:57.850 --> 01:31:00.029 you were studying once oh we can floor load people 01:31:00.029 --> 01:31:04.689 okay next and here we had over 50 people floor 01:31:04.689 --> 01:31:08.850 loaded in there and it was only a 45 minute flight 01:31:08.850 --> 01:31:15.819 over to Al Udeid and when we landed And that's 01:31:15.819 --> 01:31:19.819 when I got my first real understanding of what 01:31:19.819 --> 01:31:26.979 we were in for. Because we landed, got off the 01:31:26.979 --> 01:31:32.979 runway, they popped the ramp. I mean, it was 01:31:32.979 --> 01:31:34.899 about three in the morning and it was already 01:31:34.899 --> 01:31:42.119 oven hot out there. Excuse me. And we all offloaded. 01:31:42.119 --> 01:31:46.840 We all got our equipment off. and the loadmaster 01:31:46.840 --> 01:31:48.779 came up and said, hey, it's going to be two hours 01:31:48.779 --> 01:31:50.720 before they can come out here to pick you up. 01:31:51.460 --> 01:31:58.079 Man, why? We all got off, and we felt like we 01:31:58.079 --> 01:32:02.239 were in the middle of an international airport 01:32:02.239 --> 01:32:06.600 during the push time. When you look down at the 01:32:06.600 --> 01:32:10.039 end of the runway on approach, all you saw was 01:32:10.039 --> 01:32:12.100 landing light, landing light, landing light, 01:32:12.180 --> 01:32:16.210 landing light. Then you looked out dogleg to 01:32:16.210 --> 01:32:21.930 final base radar downwind. Landing light, landing 01:32:21.930 --> 01:32:23.869 light, landing light, landing light, landing 01:32:23.869 --> 01:32:28.970 light. And all across the sky, landing lights 01:32:28.970 --> 01:32:31.750 as they're being vectored to that entry point 01:32:31.750 --> 01:32:35.430 to be brought around to land. I had never seen 01:32:35.430 --> 01:32:39.500 that many C -17s. in one place in my life you 01:32:39.500 --> 01:32:41.819 know the air traffic controllers were humping 01:32:41.819 --> 01:32:46.260 the airfield managers were humping to handle 01:32:46.260 --> 01:32:49.159 the amount of aircraft they were launching aircraft 01:32:49.159 --> 01:32:55.140 in between landings and i just remember me one 01:32:55.140 --> 01:32:59.680 of the commanders i brought was a pilot and another 01:32:59.680 --> 01:33:02.859 one was a pilot and the other two weren't But 01:33:02.859 --> 01:33:05.220 they knew airfields and we were just standing 01:33:05.220 --> 01:33:08.199 there looking at the swarm of activity everywhere. 01:33:08.939 --> 01:33:11.479 We were on the aft end of the aircraft looking 01:33:11.479 --> 01:33:14.859 out across the airfield. And like I said, I'd 01:33:14.859 --> 01:33:17.979 never seen anything that busy before. We walked 01:33:17.979 --> 01:33:21.680 around to the front of the aircraft. All you 01:33:21.680 --> 01:33:25.420 could see was when you're on the airfield, you 01:33:25.420 --> 01:33:27.760 always have your flashers on. You saw flashers 01:33:27.760 --> 01:33:31.399 everywhere, headlights. We saw one of the massive 01:33:31.399 --> 01:33:35.260 hangars in front of us and just Afghans everywhere, 01:33:35.640 --> 01:33:39.680 buses everywhere. And I was sitting there a lot 01:33:39.680 --> 01:33:43.140 of aha moments because I was like, oh, that's 01:33:43.140 --> 01:33:46.699 why they need buses. Oh, that's why it's going 01:33:46.699 --> 01:33:48.800 to be two hours before they get out here to pick 01:33:48.800 --> 01:33:53.119 us up. And, you know, at that point it was, okay, 01:33:53.239 --> 01:33:56.180 let's keep people hydrated. There's a bathroom 01:33:56.180 --> 01:33:59.630 and a plane. Take a nap. You know, lay on your 01:33:59.630 --> 01:34:03.729 bag here on the ramp watching jets taxi by every 01:34:03.729 --> 01:34:06.409 minute because I don't know when the hell we're 01:34:06.409 --> 01:34:09.310 going to when we get picked up. I don't know 01:34:09.310 --> 01:34:10.869 when the hell we're going to get a break. So 01:34:10.869 --> 01:34:13.670 get a nap in while you can. And that was our 01:34:13.670 --> 01:34:17.710 first introduction into what was to come. Well, 01:34:17.810 --> 01:34:20.489 let's go to what was become them. Again, you 01:34:20.489 --> 01:34:23.609 initially have this number of 2000. Talk to me 01:34:23.609 --> 01:34:27.069 about all these men and women and children that, 01:34:27.069 --> 01:34:29.829 you know. collectively you guys have pulled from 01:34:29.829 --> 01:34:32.710 afghanistan and you know where they found themselves 01:34:32.710 --> 01:34:38.949 yeah so it was interesting the whole point of 01:34:38.949 --> 01:34:42.630 because the the we were supposed to get in earlier 01:34:42.630 --> 01:34:48.270 or earlier the previous day but airlift we got 01:34:48.270 --> 01:34:51.689 we got pushed back to arrive when we did uh another 01:34:51.689 --> 01:34:54.609 contingent of folks from throughout the aews 01:34:54.609 --> 01:34:59.619 got in there I don't know, maybe I'm, I couldn't 01:34:59.619 --> 01:35:02.520 even tell you, but the night before, if we were 01:35:02.520 --> 01:35:05.020 in the AM portion of the night, they got in on 01:35:05.020 --> 01:35:09.399 the PM portion of that same night. And it was 01:35:09.399 --> 01:35:11.659 another 06 from a different base and a bunch 01:35:11.659 --> 01:35:16.500 of other, you know, current or graduated squadron 01:35:16.500 --> 01:35:18.399 commanders and a bunch of other support type 01:35:18.399 --> 01:35:20.800 personnel. And the whole point we had been brought 01:35:20.800 --> 01:35:24.960 in and that wing commander for Al Udeid knew, 01:35:25.239 --> 01:35:29.149 okay. i still have a base to run i still have 01:35:29.149 --> 01:35:35.189 a mission i have to do and i need help to to 01:35:35.189 --> 01:35:38.229 take care of these all these afghan refugees 01:35:38.229 --> 01:35:41.710 so that i can actually focus on the mission that 01:35:41.710 --> 01:35:43.909 was the whole point of us being brought in so 01:35:43.909 --> 01:35:47.250 we once we got through all of our processing 01:35:47.250 --> 01:35:52.449 and got taken to the wing and i sat down with 01:35:52.449 --> 01:35:58.920 the wing commander you know it was the Provisional 01:35:58.920 --> 01:36:01.500 Humanitarian Services Group is what he was standing 01:36:01.500 --> 01:36:05.640 up. And me and the other 06 were to run it. She 01:36:05.640 --> 01:36:07.279 was going to be day shift. I was going to be 01:36:07.279 --> 01:36:09.500 night shift. And the whole point of us was to 01:36:09.500 --> 01:36:14.039 manage the reception, care and feeding, and their 01:36:14.039 --> 01:36:17.779 follow -on movement from what they called Humanitarian 01:36:17.779 --> 01:36:21.000 Operations Center. We plugged in with their Emergency 01:36:21.000 --> 01:36:24.380 Operations Center, all their functions that they 01:36:24.380 --> 01:36:29.699 had set up. We basically had 24 hours to stand 01:36:29.699 --> 01:36:32.899 up this group. I just remember when I was talking 01:36:32.899 --> 01:36:35.319 to him that morning and he laid everything out 01:36:35.319 --> 01:36:38.380 and I was like, okay, so when do you need this 01:36:38.380 --> 01:36:44.159 group stood up? Tomorrow. Okay. So we had 24 01:36:44.159 --> 01:36:47.279 hours of having to, like I said, a lot of the 01:36:47.279 --> 01:36:50.560 groundwork was there, but how do you create the 01:36:50.560 --> 01:36:56.729 head of that organization? create the the leadership 01:36:56.729 --> 01:37:00.090 package the command relationships the structures 01:37:00.090 --> 01:37:04.970 how do we manage everything that had been this 01:37:04.970 --> 01:37:07.449 group was doing it before we arrived that group 01:37:07.449 --> 01:37:10.130 was doing this portion of it before centralizing 01:37:10.130 --> 01:37:16.909 everything um i holy cow so i think we got in 01:37:16.909 --> 01:37:21.829 around 3 a .m and i didn't go to bed till after 01:37:21.829 --> 01:37:26.399 midnight then i was up at six in the morning 01:37:26.399 --> 01:37:31.300 to go in with the folks for the first full day 01:37:31.300 --> 01:37:37.399 shift. And the reason I did that was so that, 01:37:37.460 --> 01:37:40.300 because we still had to formalize everything. 01:37:40.859 --> 01:37:45.699 And that's when, that's when we first really 01:37:45.699 --> 01:37:50.420 started seeing what we were in for. We, at the 01:37:50.420 --> 01:37:55.699 high water mark, we had hit. I think 18 ,000 01:37:55.699 --> 01:38:02.420 Afghan refugees on the ground and what the people 01:38:02.420 --> 01:38:06.500 did there. Again, this is at the heart of what 01:38:06.500 --> 01:38:11.279 I said. People coming together to do what's right. 01:38:13.060 --> 01:38:15.359 I don't know if you know what a black swan is. 01:38:15.439 --> 01:38:18.130 It's one of those. events and planning circles 01:38:18.130 --> 01:38:22.369 that it's something so far out you would never 01:38:22.369 --> 01:38:26.390 even think of planning against it you know every 01:38:26.390 --> 01:38:31.649 base you know you have x amount of supplies you 01:38:31.649 --> 01:38:34.789 need this for to do your normal mission and we're 01:38:34.789 --> 01:38:36.989 going to give you this much more in case these 01:38:36.989 --> 01:38:40.310 types of plans kick off well this was such a 01:38:40.310 --> 01:38:43.930 black swan event and the demand signal was so 01:38:43.930 --> 01:38:49.880 freaking large on this that it stripped the base 01:38:49.880 --> 01:38:54.420 of supplies. I mean, where do you put that many 01:38:54.420 --> 01:38:58.279 people when the planes keep coming in? They emptied 01:38:58.279 --> 01:39:02.659 out a massive war reserve material warehouse, 01:39:03.159 --> 01:39:08.199 had almost 6 ,000 people in it, no AC in it, 01:39:08.260 --> 01:39:14.119 no facilities for bathrooms to support that. 01:39:14.810 --> 01:39:18.409 Port -a -potties is the best they could do. And 01:39:18.409 --> 01:39:20.850 again, none of this was, well, why didn't they 01:39:20.850 --> 01:39:23.989 plan for that? Like I said, it just, it happened. 01:39:24.770 --> 01:39:27.210 And, you know, if you understand, I mean, I'm 01:39:27.210 --> 01:39:29.409 not going to pretend I'm a logistician, but when 01:39:29.409 --> 01:39:33.369 you have such a huge demand spike, supply curve's 01:39:33.369 --> 01:39:37.909 always going to lag. And even though it lagged, 01:39:37.909 --> 01:39:41.710 watching, I mean, the filth, when you've got 01:39:41.710 --> 01:39:46.640 6 ,000 people. jammed in a hot warehouse that 01:39:46.640 --> 01:39:49.819 had its own weather system up in the rafters 01:39:49.819 --> 01:39:53.859 of it. It was so hot in there. You had another 01:39:53.859 --> 01:39:59.380 facility the Qataris let us use that was a warehouse 01:39:59.380 --> 01:40:02.800 that faced the ramp for, you know, processing 01:40:02.800 --> 01:40:06.539 cargo and getting stuff out to aircraft. The 01:40:06.539 --> 01:40:11.279 Qataris stood up six... think of a wedding tent 01:40:11.279 --> 01:40:14.859 they looked like massive wedding tents um in 01:40:14.859 --> 01:40:19.800 a field that they just had tons of people in 01:40:19.800 --> 01:40:23.560 them the guitarists actually put fake green grass 01:40:23.560 --> 01:40:25.859 down and put up a bouncy house in it for the 01:40:25.859 --> 01:40:28.819 kids and that was pretty awesome but there were 01:40:28.819 --> 01:40:35.100 afghan refugees kids babies men women everywhere 01:40:35.100 --> 01:40:39.960 the filth was beyond anything I could describe. 01:40:40.199 --> 01:40:43.859 As I've tried describing the filth to people, 01:40:44.520 --> 01:40:47.239 it's, I mean, I'd sent you those samples and 01:40:47.239 --> 01:40:53.539 you read the filth that I had talked about. I'd 01:40:53.539 --> 01:40:57.520 always said, think of the worst interstate gas 01:40:57.520 --> 01:41:01.899 station bathroom you've seen. I would drop a 01:41:01.899 --> 01:41:05.680 hundred dollar ribeye on that and pick it up 01:41:05.680 --> 01:41:08.880 and eat it. compared to what we saw over there. 01:41:09.220 --> 01:41:14.199 Think of the most filthy... Well, think of the 01:41:14.199 --> 01:41:17.600 most filthy multi -day concert porta -potties 01:41:17.600 --> 01:41:22.260 you've seen. Those were spic and span compared 01:41:22.260 --> 01:41:27.539 to over there. There was human feces everywhere, 01:41:28.060 --> 01:41:34.399 urine everywhere, just trash everywhere, filth. 01:41:34.439 --> 01:41:36.899 And again, it's not out of... They weren't doing 01:41:36.899 --> 01:41:39.319 it out of malice or they're beasts. It's just 01:41:39.319 --> 01:41:43.260 for a lot of them. And this is where the wing 01:41:43.260 --> 01:41:46.300 commander came in. One of the things he wanted 01:41:46.300 --> 01:41:49.340 and stressed with me is communication, whether 01:41:49.340 --> 01:41:53.479 it be communication with our own people or it 01:41:53.479 --> 01:41:56.760 be communication with the Afghans. But I always 01:41:56.760 --> 01:41:59.880 preached it to our people as well as the Afghans, 01:41:59.899 --> 01:42:02.539 because I wasn't always going to be out there. 01:42:02.600 --> 01:42:07.300 So this volunteer. was that touch point with 01:42:07.300 --> 01:42:11.520 the Afghans. This person working in this operating 01:42:11.520 --> 01:42:14.220 location was a touch point. And it was just making 01:42:14.220 --> 01:42:17.899 sure they understood that they're humans, understand 01:42:17.899 --> 01:42:20.239 what they've been through. And I said, some of 01:42:20.239 --> 01:42:23.060 these folks, because a lot of them, I'm not kidding 01:42:23.060 --> 01:42:25.239 you, James, you would just, and note when it 01:42:25.239 --> 01:42:32.159 was at its peak, I can, I would have paid handsomely 01:42:32.159 --> 01:42:36.260 for a stick. to scrape crap off my boots it was 01:42:36.260 --> 01:42:41.460 that bad but trying to explain to people they 01:42:41.460 --> 01:42:44.479 would get frustrated why are they all over the 01:42:44.479 --> 01:42:46.500 ground here why are they doing this why are they 01:42:46.500 --> 01:42:48.920 doing that it's like it's not because they're 01:42:48.920 --> 01:42:52.500 beasts i said you have to think a lot of these 01:42:52.500 --> 01:42:55.920 people have never seen running water before they've 01:42:55.920 --> 01:42:59.479 never had plumbing before on top of that you 01:42:59.479 --> 01:43:04.340 have to think That is a very rural, if you will, 01:43:04.399 --> 01:43:08.079 country. A lot of these people, you have to assume 01:43:08.079 --> 01:43:10.720 they came from the furthest reaches of that country 01:43:10.720 --> 01:43:14.340 to get to Kabul. Probably a lot of it by foot, 01:43:14.420 --> 01:43:18.619 dragging their extended family. They're dehydrated. 01:43:18.800 --> 01:43:23.060 They're hungry. They're mentally beat down. They 01:43:23.060 --> 01:43:26.439 get to Kabul, which was a circus. The stress 01:43:26.439 --> 01:43:30.680 and the fear that was Kabul to get on a plane. 01:43:31.210 --> 01:43:35.930 land in some military base, afraid they're going 01:43:35.930 --> 01:43:37.770 to say the wrong thing or not have the right 01:43:37.770 --> 01:43:40.409 documentation, get sent back to Afghanistan. 01:43:40.909 --> 01:43:47.149 They were mentally beat down. And I know in POW 01:43:47.149 --> 01:43:51.409 training, air crew have to go through, they warn 01:43:51.409 --> 01:43:54.550 you about getting beat down because you become 01:43:54.550 --> 01:43:57.649 dehumanized at that point. Once you become dehumanized, 01:43:58.140 --> 01:44:01.060 You're just a walking bag of bones. And that's 01:44:01.060 --> 01:44:03.399 what a lot of them were. They were dehumanized 01:44:03.399 --> 01:44:08.180 and they just, they were zombies almost just 01:44:08.180 --> 01:44:11.520 because of everything they'd been through. And 01:44:11.520 --> 01:44:15.180 the thing is with the filth, one, there weren't 01:44:15.180 --> 01:44:18.319 enough facilities, but two, once they got there, 01:44:18.439 --> 01:44:21.739 we started hydrating them. We started feeding 01:44:21.739 --> 01:44:25.220 them. Well, you understand physiology better 01:44:25.220 --> 01:44:29.369 than me. You're dehydrated and starving. Your, 01:44:29.449 --> 01:44:34.390 your GI shuts down. And once you start reintroducing 01:44:34.390 --> 01:44:36.170 that stuff, well, guess what? It starts going 01:44:36.170 --> 01:44:40.970 again. So bathrooms got destroyed. When those 01:44:40.970 --> 01:44:44.250 got almost unusable, they started just going 01:44:44.250 --> 01:44:48.470 wherever. And, you know, a lot of people, once 01:44:48.470 --> 01:44:51.210 they realized it's, they're not doing it out 01:44:51.210 --> 01:44:55.210 of malice. It's just, man, put yourself in their 01:44:55.210 --> 01:45:03.060 shoes. But man, watching every person there volunteering, 01:45:03.579 --> 01:45:07.220 we had the structures that were no kidding shift 01:45:07.220 --> 01:45:10.520 work and you're working at these operating locations 01:45:10.520 --> 01:45:14.020 and all these other places. The men and women 01:45:14.020 --> 01:45:17.359 of the 379th and all the other organizations 01:45:17.359 --> 01:45:21.300 on Al Udeid, they're freaking heroes. They were 01:45:21.300 --> 01:45:24.840 working their 12 hour, eight hours a day job. 01:45:25.550 --> 01:45:28.869 Getting off work and then volunteering in all 01:45:28.869 --> 01:45:32.029 these operating locations to care for people 01:45:32.029 --> 01:45:34.829 because it was the right thing to do. Then they'd 01:45:34.829 --> 01:45:38.090 go to sleep with minimal rest and repeat the 01:45:38.090 --> 01:45:43.649 next day, just like everybody. It's the most 01:45:43.649 --> 01:45:45.890 astounding thing I've seen in my life. The most 01:45:45.890 --> 01:45:50.569 profound stuff I've ever seen in my life happened 01:45:50.569 --> 01:45:54.010 there. We talked earlier about the kind of proximity 01:45:54.010 --> 01:45:56.989 to some of the conflicts in the Middle East early 01:45:56.989 --> 01:45:58.609 in your career. And obviously, with a lot of 01:45:58.609 --> 01:46:00.729 the pilots, you're not having that kind of, you 01:46:00.729 --> 01:46:02.630 know, on the boots on the ground interaction. 01:46:03.250 --> 01:46:06.010 Now you're surrounded with, you know, this this 01:46:06.010 --> 01:46:08.970 overwhelming amount of Afghani families or Afghan 01:46:08.970 --> 01:46:12.109 families. Excuse me. Talk to me about the impact 01:46:12.109 --> 01:46:17.390 of that on your emotional health. Well, the impact 01:46:17.390 --> 01:46:23.159 on that was rough. I'm hard on myself for allowing 01:46:23.159 --> 01:46:28.159 a lot of that to do to me what it did. Part of 01:46:28.159 --> 01:46:31.899 it, I think, and I'm glad they can't see me. 01:46:31.939 --> 01:46:34.399 I catch myself not making eye contact through 01:46:34.399 --> 01:46:41.579 the computer. A lot of it was our mental state, 01:46:41.760 --> 01:46:46.199 my mental state. Like I said, I got there with 01:46:46.199 --> 01:46:52.489 the sleep debt. I think. Once I went to bed for 01:46:52.489 --> 01:46:56.090 the first time after I got there, I think I'd 01:46:56.090 --> 01:47:03.930 been up for 40 to 44 hours. And then after that, 01:47:04.050 --> 01:47:09.130 I was sleeping three hours a night. Before I 01:47:09.130 --> 01:47:15.630 even started my 12 -hour mid -shift, six hours 01:47:15.630 --> 01:47:18.569 prior to that, I was already making my way through 01:47:18.569 --> 01:47:21.930 all the operating locations. So in essence, I 01:47:21.930 --> 01:47:26.029 was pulling 18 hours. And the reason I was doing 01:47:26.029 --> 01:47:30.130 that wasn't trying to be a hero or anything. 01:47:30.289 --> 01:47:34.550 It's just how I'm wired. If this wing commander 01:47:34.550 --> 01:47:37.630 is going to entrust me to make those kinds of 01:47:37.630 --> 01:47:41.350 decisions on people's lives, I need to know what 01:47:41.350 --> 01:47:44.250 the hell's going on. And I can't do that from 01:47:44.250 --> 01:47:46.829 sitting in a humanitarian operations center, 01:47:46.909 --> 01:47:50.869 taking phone calls and pretending like I know 01:47:50.869 --> 01:47:53.930 what's going on out there. So I would hit every 01:47:53.930 --> 01:47:57.390 operating location for six hours before I got 01:47:57.390 --> 01:48:03.010 there to understand what that particular commander 01:48:03.010 --> 01:48:06.569 needed, what was the pulse of the place, what 01:48:06.569 --> 01:48:09.430 was the pulse of the Afghans. And I'd literally 01:48:09.430 --> 01:48:15.340 walk through. all of the areas where the Afghan 01:48:15.340 --> 01:48:18.979 refugees were. Some of them were worse than others. 01:48:19.439 --> 01:48:22.359 The one where I told you we had 6 ,000 people 01:48:22.359 --> 01:48:27.500 in there, that was the powder keg because conditions 01:48:27.500 --> 01:48:30.979 were so bad. So many people were in there. It 01:48:30.979 --> 01:48:37.060 was just really, really bad, that one. The other 01:48:37.060 --> 01:48:40.579 Qatari warehouse I told you about that looked 01:48:40.579 --> 01:48:43.380 like it was meant for processing cargo, those 01:48:43.380 --> 01:48:47.640 two places gave me, to use technical jargon, 01:48:47.659 --> 01:48:51.159 a cubic shit ton of scar tissue, mental scar 01:48:51.159 --> 01:48:56.760 tissue, because you've never seen those kinds 01:48:56.760 --> 01:49:00.920 of conditions. You've never seen people at that 01:49:00.920 --> 01:49:06.800 level of... being beaten down the the folks that 01:49:06.800 --> 01:49:10.159 look like they're they're zombies they're it's 01:49:10.159 --> 01:49:12.439 like they're not even human anymore in their 01:49:12.439 --> 01:49:18.760 own minds and you know the those that bore the 01:49:18.760 --> 01:49:23.159 brunt of that suck if you will were children 01:49:23.159 --> 01:49:32.039 um the children and there were those I think 01:49:32.039 --> 01:49:34.539 in addition to the stuff I sent you, I think 01:49:34.539 --> 01:49:37.239 I'd sent you the stuff about the trash bag lady 01:49:37.239 --> 01:49:42.739 and my experience where I thought I was going 01:49:42.739 --> 01:49:45.979 to cash in my chips in a big warehouse. But, 01:49:45.979 --> 01:49:52.380 you know, just seeing babies completely lethargic 01:49:52.380 --> 01:49:56.060 in their mother's laps and the mother's just 01:49:56.060 --> 01:50:01.619 crying, trying to fan this kid to see kids. that 01:50:01.619 --> 01:50:04.880 are in such bad shape. And each operating location 01:50:04.880 --> 01:50:07.720 had a little medical section, you know, trying 01:50:07.720 --> 01:50:12.520 to get IVs into dehydrated little arms where 01:50:12.520 --> 01:50:15.939 the veins have collapsed from dehydration. Even 01:50:15.939 --> 01:50:21.699 seeing grown men crying as they're, you know, 01:50:21.720 --> 01:50:24.140 I remember this one guy, blood all over him, 01:50:24.220 --> 01:50:27.319 crying into his free arm as they were trying 01:50:27.319 --> 01:50:32.550 to get an IV into him. you know, taken a lot 01:50:32.550 --> 01:50:35.350 of the emotional burden on from some other people, 01:50:35.449 --> 01:50:38.210 you know, trying to be that, that person there 01:50:38.210 --> 01:50:41.430 for them, you know, the, the one lady that, that 01:50:41.430 --> 01:50:49.409 broke down in my arms. It was, it took a toll 01:50:49.409 --> 01:50:53.329 because I think the fatigue, I'd like to think 01:50:53.329 --> 01:50:55.449 that if I was, well, I'm getting nine hours of 01:50:55.449 --> 01:50:57.810 sleep a day and I'm dealing with this, I think 01:50:57.810 --> 01:51:00.949 I would have the faculties to put up. walls in 01:51:00.949 --> 01:51:04.449 my head to protect myself but I was just as beaten 01:51:04.449 --> 01:51:09.670 down as they were and I know a lot of the people 01:51:09.670 --> 01:51:14.630 that worked there were I know a lot of them walked 01:51:14.630 --> 01:51:17.529 away with a lot of scar tissue as well it was 01:51:17.529 --> 01:51:22.109 just it was hard to deal with because you're 01:51:22.109 --> 01:51:24.710 a human being you're coming together with a lot 01:51:24.710 --> 01:51:28.250 of other amazing human beings trying to care 01:51:28.250 --> 01:51:30.229 for people because it's the right thing to do 01:51:30.229 --> 01:51:34.470 and you just don't want to see people in that 01:51:34.470 --> 01:51:38.189 condition but if you look in a mirror you're 01:51:38.189 --> 01:51:41.029 not as bad off as they are but you've worked 01:51:41.029 --> 01:51:43.729 yourself into the ground and you've absorbed 01:51:43.729 --> 01:51:49.229 a lot of that those emotions from others and 01:51:49.229 --> 01:51:53.050 you've internalized a lot of the suffering that 01:51:53.050 --> 01:51:57.390 you've seen in front of you And man, I'm glad 01:51:57.390 --> 01:51:59.550 you can't see my fidgety hands right now, but 01:51:59.550 --> 01:52:04.310 you know, it's, it's a lot of that. I mean, it 01:52:04.310 --> 01:52:06.789 parallels what a lot of people listening go through 01:52:06.789 --> 01:52:08.789 as first responders, you know, it's that, that 01:52:08.789 --> 01:52:11.270 moral injury, you know, seeing the suffering, 01:52:11.390 --> 01:52:13.510 being empathetic. I mean, that's what sends us 01:52:13.510 --> 01:52:17.069 into this profession, being unable to save many 01:52:17.069 --> 01:52:19.270 of these people. You know, it's that constant, 01:52:19.329 --> 01:52:21.409 as we say, death by a thousand cuts. Now you 01:52:21.409 --> 01:52:23.729 had a much more acute event and I'm sure anyone, 01:52:24.460 --> 01:52:26.819 Trying to be part of the solution in Gaza is 01:52:26.819 --> 01:52:29.060 probably seeing that same thing day in, day out. 01:52:29.180 --> 01:52:31.880 But this is it. I mean, when you've actually 01:52:31.880 --> 01:52:35.260 got a servant's heart, watching people suffering 01:52:35.260 --> 01:52:43.779 is crushing. It is. It's brutal. And my hat's 01:52:43.779 --> 01:52:46.539 off to the Afghan refugees because they are a 01:52:46.539 --> 01:52:52.479 very, very tough people. I just, I could not 01:52:52.479 --> 01:52:56.350 have imagined. doing what they did had, or I 01:52:56.350 --> 01:52:58.869 should say, I couldn't imagine going through 01:52:58.869 --> 01:53:01.529 what they had to go through. And, you know, the 01:53:01.529 --> 01:53:04.369 communication thing, talking to our people to 01:53:04.369 --> 01:53:08.210 help keep, keep them, keep their minds framed 01:53:08.210 --> 01:53:13.350 is, you know, try and feel for them in the sense 01:53:13.350 --> 01:53:17.670 that you've never lost your country. You've never 01:53:17.670 --> 01:53:23.760 had to flee your country and home. You know, 01:53:23.800 --> 01:53:27.640 you have a house full of worldly possessions, 01:53:27.720 --> 01:53:30.319 and there's a core group of those possessions 01:53:30.319 --> 01:53:34.920 that are the world to you. A lot of these people 01:53:34.920 --> 01:53:39.260 literally showed up. The lucky ones had a suitcase, 01:53:40.920 --> 01:53:43.560 and unfortunately, a lot of them never got their 01:53:43.560 --> 01:53:45.659 suitcases back, and that's a whole other story. 01:53:46.100 --> 01:53:52.350 But their life is in a little bag. you've never 01:53:52.350 --> 01:53:55.710 had to go through that and you've never had a 01:53:55.710 --> 01:53:58.689 future that is so uncertain. Okay. I'm at this 01:53:58.689 --> 01:54:02.489 base, but what's next? You know, it was, and 01:54:02.489 --> 01:54:05.470 not that our people didn't understand that, but 01:54:05.470 --> 01:54:07.770 you know how, when you just, when you've taken 01:54:07.770 --> 01:54:11.010 on so much and you start letting yourself get 01:54:11.010 --> 01:54:14.229 beat down, you sometimes forget that. And it's 01:54:14.229 --> 01:54:18.510 just, Oh yeah, you're right. You're right. But 01:54:18.510 --> 01:54:23.470 like I said, The people of Value Deed and that 01:54:23.470 --> 01:54:26.710 group of people that were brought in from the 01:54:26.710 --> 01:54:30.649 other AEWs to help them, they're freaking heroes. 01:54:30.710 --> 01:54:36.289 The work they did is so amazing. So talk to me 01:54:36.289 --> 01:54:39.069 about where you found yourself as far as the 01:54:39.069 --> 01:54:42.010 low after this had concluded. And then what were 01:54:42.010 --> 01:54:44.270 the tools that you started using to get yourself 01:54:44.270 --> 01:54:51.569 out of that pit? The day I thought I was going 01:54:51.569 --> 01:54:56.569 to die, that took me to quite a low. I say a 01:54:56.569 --> 01:54:59.890 near riot, a riot forming in front of me that 01:54:59.890 --> 01:55:03.050 an amazing human being that was the day shift 01:55:03.050 --> 01:55:05.770 commander there broke up. But, you know, I was 01:55:05.770 --> 01:55:08.529 standing right in the middle with over a thousand 01:55:08.529 --> 01:55:13.109 pissed off people coming towards me. And then 01:55:13.109 --> 01:55:15.409 that coupled with a lot of the suffering I saw 01:55:15.409 --> 01:55:21.100 in the other places. There was a guy, one of 01:55:21.100 --> 01:55:24.319 the Afghans that I talked to, again, I talked 01:55:24.319 --> 01:55:27.100 to as many of them as I could just to let them, 01:55:27.140 --> 01:55:30.380 communication is everything, to let them know 01:55:30.380 --> 01:55:33.699 why we were doing what we were doing, why the 01:55:33.699 --> 01:55:37.479 conditions were as they were and what we were 01:55:37.479 --> 01:55:41.819 trying to do about it. And, you know, I was talking 01:55:41.819 --> 01:55:44.800 to an elder and, you know, I was telling him 01:55:44.800 --> 01:55:47.680 the people here are literally, the men and women 01:55:47.680 --> 01:55:50.130 are. giving their hearts and souls to your country 01:55:50.130 --> 01:55:53.250 mates. And I was like, I, and this, you know, 01:55:53.250 --> 01:55:55.689 men aren't supposed to admit this, but what the 01:55:55.689 --> 01:55:57.750 hell I already admitted. I held a gun to my head. 01:55:58.210 --> 01:56:05.350 Um, I cried more in my time there than I had 01:56:05.350 --> 01:56:10.710 in the last 30 years. Um, whether like with the 01:56:10.710 --> 01:56:14.029 trash bag lady, I told you read about that, that 01:56:14.029 --> 01:56:17.159 sample I sent you, I went out. out on a ramp 01:56:17.159 --> 01:56:23.159 and bald like a like a little boy um so many 01:56:23.159 --> 01:56:27.039 other events that made me do that and you know 01:56:27.039 --> 01:56:30.460 just trying to push through that you just bury 01:56:30.460 --> 01:56:34.319 it and bury it and bury it and when i would talk 01:56:34.319 --> 01:56:37.560 to my wife for five minutes after i woke up before 01:56:37.560 --> 01:56:40.840 i would get going how are things going and i 01:56:40.840 --> 01:56:42.739 would try and tell her about it and i'd start 01:56:42.739 --> 01:56:45.739 crying And I'm like, I got to go. I got to go. 01:56:46.039 --> 01:56:50.380 And again, okay, let me put some more walling 01:56:50.380 --> 01:56:54.180 up to hide that crap. And I'd find myself sitting 01:56:54.180 --> 01:56:57.960 in a chow hall before I even started the six 01:56:57.960 --> 01:57:01.300 hours of going through all the operating locations. 01:57:01.300 --> 01:57:07.380 And I'd find myself tearing up in there. Once 01:57:07.380 --> 01:57:11.779 I got through all that, of what Al Udeid was. 01:57:13.520 --> 01:57:18.159 I wasn't the same person anymore. And it's funny, 01:57:18.239 --> 01:57:20.199 that was in the first three months of my one 01:57:20.199 --> 01:57:24.859 year. So I still had nine months to go. I think 01:57:24.859 --> 01:57:27.479 what made it easy for me to deal with it initially, 01:57:27.659 --> 01:57:32.380 in those nine months, I was by myself. I didn't 01:57:32.380 --> 01:57:38.100 have to worry about anybody. I knew internally 01:57:38.100 --> 01:57:42.979 I wasn't the same person, but... It was easy 01:57:42.979 --> 01:57:46.720 there. I just put a mask on. I'm Colonel Coleman, 01:57:46.880 --> 01:57:50.020 Deputy Commander. We got to get this done, this 01:57:50.020 --> 01:57:55.119 done. And I found myself staying in my room more 01:57:55.119 --> 01:57:57.659 by myself, even though the other wing leadership 01:57:57.659 --> 01:58:01.479 would be out in our quad talking and smoking 01:58:01.479 --> 01:58:05.420 and joking. I would stay in my room more. When 01:58:05.420 --> 01:58:08.300 I was out there, I wasn't as chatty as I used 01:58:08.300 --> 01:58:12.020 to be. I mean, I was a full on extrovert, but 01:58:12.020 --> 01:58:17.140 beforehand, now this time I had more introvert 01:58:17.140 --> 01:58:19.319 tendencies because I didn't want to interact. 01:58:20.600 --> 01:58:23.460 On my one day off, I found myself getting off 01:58:23.460 --> 01:58:25.659 base more because I didn't want to be reminded 01:58:25.659 --> 01:58:30.359 of the military stuff. And it's funny, one of 01:58:30.359 --> 01:58:34.300 the guys I took with me there, he and I and a 01:58:34.300 --> 01:58:36.600 couple other folks, we were off base and we were 01:58:36.600 --> 01:58:40.489 checking out a carpet suit. And we were looking 01:58:40.489 --> 01:58:43.729 around, looking around, and a smell hit both 01:58:43.729 --> 01:58:49.010 of us at the same time. And it was not that there's 01:58:49.010 --> 01:58:53.369 anything against Afghans. It was just they were 01:58:53.369 --> 01:58:57.489 out there working hard, and we smelled them. 01:58:57.710 --> 01:59:01.590 Before we even saw them, that smell in my head, 01:59:01.630 --> 01:59:05.270 I was right back in the middle of that bad crap. 01:59:05.920 --> 01:59:08.739 And he and I looked at each other. Our freaking 01:59:08.739 --> 01:59:12.439 eyes were wide and we got the hell out of there. 01:59:12.579 --> 01:59:17.420 But when I got home, I couldn't hide. I couldn't 01:59:17.420 --> 01:59:22.960 just go sit in my own room by myself. And I had, 01:59:23.100 --> 01:59:25.899 I tried to deal with it. I tried to internalize 01:59:25.899 --> 01:59:29.079 it, but I found myself drinking more. I found 01:59:29.079 --> 01:59:33.239 myself with, oh my God, normally I'm a mountain 01:59:33.239 --> 01:59:36.579 of patients, but. I had like a quarter -inch 01:59:36.579 --> 01:59:40.979 fuse. A few days after I got home, we went down 01:59:40.979 --> 01:59:43.619 to Daytona Beach, and my parents didn't tell 01:59:43.619 --> 01:59:46.819 me this until I think a couple years later. They 01:59:46.819 --> 01:59:49.239 were like, yeah, when you came home, you were 01:59:49.239 --> 01:59:52.060 a freaking mess. It's like you were agitated. 01:59:52.539 --> 01:59:58.039 You were just fidgety. You yelled a lot. You 01:59:58.039 --> 02:00:03.539 drank all your dad's beer. But yeah, I tried 02:00:03.539 --> 02:00:08.279 to be normal, but I found myself not wanting 02:00:08.279 --> 02:00:10.960 to go places that had a lot of people in it. 02:00:12.640 --> 02:00:15.020 Let's see, maybe in my head, I was back in an 02:00:15.020 --> 02:00:18.779 operating location in my head when I had to go 02:00:18.779 --> 02:00:23.020 to the mall with my bride. I literally was skimming 02:00:23.020 --> 02:00:27.119 the wall. I had my hand on the wall. And I would 02:00:27.119 --> 02:00:29.340 not leave that wall as we were making our way 02:00:29.340 --> 02:00:31.880 through it. I had to have people in front of 02:00:31.880 --> 02:00:36.560 me. Kids, if kids started screaming, I was a 02:00:36.560 --> 02:00:43.539 freaking mountain of goo. And finally, her, it 02:00:43.539 --> 02:00:46.000 was almost like a little intervention, her and 02:00:46.000 --> 02:00:49.619 a buddy of mine who got a wicked case of PTSD 02:00:49.619 --> 02:00:55.770 in Afghanistan doing shit he had to deal with 02:00:55.770 --> 02:00:59.670 they were both like uh hey dude you okay yeah 02:00:59.670 --> 02:01:05.170 i'm fucking fine why i don't think so uh so it's 02:01:05.170 --> 02:01:06.869 funny when we come home from our deployments 02:01:06.869 --> 02:01:09.649 we have to do these post deployment mental health 02:01:09.649 --> 02:01:13.210 questionnaires and of course everybody's like 02:01:13.210 --> 02:01:15.409 nope fine nope nope nope nope nope nope nope 02:01:15.409 --> 02:01:18.970 i'm good and they hit you back up on a 90 day 02:01:18.970 --> 02:01:22.069 and it's funny they timed it to where it was 02:01:22.069 --> 02:01:25.199 just close to that 90 day and i was like fine 02:01:25.199 --> 02:01:29.220 fine whatever i'll answer some of the questions 02:01:29.220 --> 02:01:33.539 maybe partially truthfully and i did and no kidding 02:01:33.539 --> 02:01:38.199 i did it was a email i got from flight medicine 02:01:38.199 --> 02:01:41.960 you know because i'm a knuckle dragon pilot and 02:01:41.960 --> 02:01:44.520 no kidding that afternoon they were calling me 02:01:44.520 --> 02:01:47.699 based on the little bit i answered correctly 02:01:47.699 --> 02:01:52.449 and i had to go see them and then well That started 02:01:52.449 --> 02:01:56.170 my mental health journey. I hear a lot of people 02:01:56.170 --> 02:01:59.850 from the military side, especially the VA, when 02:01:59.850 --> 02:02:02.409 they do go and get help, a lot of times it's 02:02:02.409 --> 02:02:05.369 pharmaceuticals that are given to them and maybe 02:02:05.369 --> 02:02:07.850 not getting to the root cause. What was your 02:02:07.850 --> 02:02:11.310 experience as far as the treatment options that 02:02:11.310 --> 02:02:18.319 you were given and the efficacy of them? The 02:02:18.319 --> 02:02:22.699 mental health clinic out at Andrews, Joint Base 02:02:22.699 --> 02:02:26.600 Andrews, was phenomenal. My skull jockey was 02:02:26.600 --> 02:02:30.920 incredibly patient. And the beauty of their approach 02:02:30.920 --> 02:02:39.859 was no narcotics, no any of that stuff, because 02:02:39.859 --> 02:02:44.319 their belief is that is not addressing the issue. 02:02:44.380 --> 02:02:47.739 What that stuff does. is it helps hide the issue 02:02:47.739 --> 02:02:52.140 to where you don't face it and deal with it and 02:02:52.140 --> 02:02:57.920 it was 100 other techniques they used to get 02:02:57.920 --> 02:03:01.479 around it you know uh you know sensory type stuff 02:03:01.479 --> 02:03:04.359 writing about it and that's where this silly 02:03:04.359 --> 02:03:07.859 book i'm trying to get done came from part of 02:03:07.859 --> 02:03:09.920 it is i remember him sitting okay so we're gonna 02:03:09.920 --> 02:03:13.770 try some writing uh therapy i'm like okay What, 02:03:13.789 --> 02:03:15.470 you want me to write, being a smartass, what, 02:03:15.529 --> 02:03:17.970 you want me to write a poem? He's like, no, pick 02:03:17.970 --> 02:03:22.869 the event or write about the event that caused 02:03:22.869 --> 02:03:25.949 the trauma. I'm like, which one? And he just 02:03:25.949 --> 02:03:28.989 looked at me and he's like, uh, the worst one. 02:03:29.430 --> 02:03:32.729 Okay. So the day I thought I was cashing in my 02:03:32.729 --> 02:03:36.470 chips, in over five sessions, we would sit down 02:03:36.470 --> 02:03:38.789 and I would just write about it. And it pisses 02:03:38.789 --> 02:03:41.449 me off because I've got a very good memory, but 02:03:41.449 --> 02:03:44.130 I can't remember it all. There are literally 02:03:44.130 --> 02:03:51.010 gaps of time in my head I cannot remember. We 02:03:51.010 --> 02:03:53.909 would do that type of shit. Then I wound up expanding 02:03:53.909 --> 02:03:55.989 that to, well, I want to have something that 02:03:55.989 --> 02:03:57.909 my kids know what happened. And then Carrie, 02:03:58.090 --> 02:04:00.770 you know, retired colonel, she goes, nobody knows 02:04:00.770 --> 02:04:02.869 about the suck of where you were. That should 02:04:02.869 --> 02:04:06.770 be a book. Okay. So that was the one technique. 02:04:09.819 --> 02:04:14.020 Oh, geez, the exposure therapy. He wanted me 02:04:14.020 --> 02:04:19.979 to try and do stuff for the smells and stuff. 02:04:20.359 --> 02:04:24.699 And it's funny, that first year, I could not 02:04:24.699 --> 02:04:31.359 even be at my daughter's recital because it was 02:04:31.359 --> 02:04:36.680 an enclosed space, screaming kids, people talking 02:04:36.680 --> 02:04:40.350 over each other. And in my head, I was back in 02:04:40.350 --> 02:04:46.409 that, oh, well, and I, yeah, I was a mess and 02:04:46.409 --> 02:04:49.890 had to leave. So, hey, start exposing yourself 02:04:49.890 --> 02:04:55.510 to less invasive things like that. So I really 02:04:55.510 --> 02:04:59.289 appreciated those techniques because I did not 02:04:59.289 --> 02:05:02.630 want to be on meds. And I love that that was 02:05:02.630 --> 02:05:06.189 their approach. That hides the problem. We want 02:05:06.189 --> 02:05:09.760 you to face the problem. That's amazing. Well, 02:05:09.840 --> 02:05:11.680 you touched on the book. Let's talk about that 02:05:11.680 --> 02:05:14.180 then. Where are you at? And then for the audience 02:05:14.180 --> 02:05:16.439 listening, in case someone maybe can be part 02:05:16.439 --> 02:05:19.239 of the solution, talk to me about the type of 02:05:19.239 --> 02:05:23.100 publisher that you're looking for for this. I 02:05:23.100 --> 02:05:30.199 don't know what I don't know. So I've got a manuscript. 02:05:31.039 --> 02:05:36.010 You've seen bits of it. I have a... Very good 02:05:36.010 --> 02:05:41.029 friend, Dr. Perry Colvin down in Alabama. He 02:05:41.029 --> 02:05:45.430 works with Air University doing oral histories 02:05:45.430 --> 02:05:49.489 for them. And somehow he got on to a lot of this 02:05:49.489 --> 02:05:54.810 Afghan stuff. And I sent it to him. PhDs do a 02:05:54.810 --> 02:05:59.649 lot of writing. And I worked on some of his suggestions. 02:06:01.710 --> 02:06:05.050 So now through our mutual friend who connected 02:06:05.050 --> 02:06:10.050 me with you, found an editor, and now the next 02:06:10.050 --> 02:06:15.050 part is, okay, once the editing is done, how 02:06:15.050 --> 02:06:18.729 do I get this thing published? So that's where 02:06:18.729 --> 02:06:21.090 I'm at with that. We've made some connections, 02:06:21.149 --> 02:06:22.670 so hopefully one of them will come to fruition. 02:06:22.789 --> 02:06:26.060 But if anyone's listening and they... they want 02:06:26.060 --> 02:06:28.039 to be part of this amazing story that needs to 02:06:28.039 --> 02:06:31.100 be told, then please reach out to me and I'll 02:06:31.100 --> 02:06:33.000 put your contact information on the webpage as 02:06:33.000 --> 02:06:36.739 well. Like I've told you a million times, everybody 02:06:36.739 --> 02:06:40.220 knows about what happened in Afghanistan. Everybody 02:06:40.220 --> 02:06:44.260 knows about what happened in Kabul, the amazing 02:06:44.260 --> 02:06:48.000 feats. And it's good to see Air Mobility Command 02:06:48.000 --> 02:06:51.420 handing out distinguished flying crosses for 02:06:51.420 --> 02:06:56.220 those C -17 crews that... flew 124 ,000 people 02:06:56.220 --> 02:06:58.739 out in such a short time. Tell me what other 02:06:58.739 --> 02:07:04.340 country could do that. But nobody knows the human 02:07:04.340 --> 02:07:09.340 suffering and near catastrophe that Al -Yudid 02:07:09.340 --> 02:07:12.699 was that summer. I think we had 58 ,000 some 02:07:12.699 --> 02:07:16.020 odd Afghans go through there in less than a month. 02:07:16.399 --> 02:07:21.319 So it's so impressive what so many amazing people 02:07:21.319 --> 02:07:24.430 did. Absolutely. Well, if people listening want 02:07:24.430 --> 02:07:26.689 to reach out to you, learn more about you, where 02:07:26.689 --> 02:07:28.930 are the best places online or social media to 02:07:28.930 --> 02:07:34.949 do that? Well, I'm obviously on LinkedIn, Matthew 02:07:34.949 --> 02:07:39.329 Coleman. Honestly, I think that's the easiest 02:07:39.329 --> 02:07:45.789 or matthew .f .coleman1998 at gmail .com. So 02:07:45.789 --> 02:07:49.960 those are probably the two best. Well, Matt, 02:07:50.060 --> 02:07:52.140 I want to say thank you so much. It's been such 02:07:52.140 --> 02:07:54.819 an incredible conversation. I truly appreciate 02:07:54.819 --> 02:07:57.420 your courageous vulnerability. You saying that, 02:07:57.420 --> 02:07:59.800 you know, men shouldn't say, admit that they 02:07:59.800 --> 02:08:02.479 cry. I say bullshit. You know, like you said, 02:08:02.539 --> 02:08:04.840 you cried like a boy. We're all just boys. We're 02:08:04.840 --> 02:08:06.640 boys that have been on the earth a little bit 02:08:06.640 --> 02:08:09.819 longer. So we absolutely should cry. So I want 02:08:09.819 --> 02:08:12.420 to thank you so much for that and for being so 02:08:12.420 --> 02:08:14.319 generous with your time and coming on the Behind 02:08:14.319 --> 02:08:18.340 the Shield podcast today. I truly appreciate 02:08:18.340 --> 02:08:21.539 you having me on. Like I said, I love what you're 02:08:21.539 --> 02:08:24.560 doing. I love how you're helping people as they 02:08:24.560 --> 02:08:29.640 talk through things and how you expose the other 02:08:29.640 --> 02:08:33.359 side that people don't see. And that's the rest 02:08:33.359 --> 02:08:35.020 of the story. And I love that you're doing that.