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Shield podcast with founder Ernie Colling. Welcome
to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always,
my name is James Gearing, and this week it is
my absolute honor to welcome on the show first
responder therapist Phyllis Rogers. Now, Phyllis
has been working with our professions for almost
two decades now. So we discuss a host of topics
from her journey into the psychology space, working
with first responders, the chaplaincy program,
peer support, the 2020 riots, and so much more.
Now, before we get to this incredible conversation,
as I say every week, please just take a moment,
go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe
to the show. Leave feedback and leave a rating.
Every single five -star rating truly does elevate
this podcast, therefore making it easier for
others to find. And this is a free library of
well over 1 ,000 episodes now. So all I ask in
return is that you help share these incredible
men and women's stories so I can get them to
every single person on planet Earth who needs
to hear them. So with that being said... I introduce
to you Phyllis Rogers. Enjoy. Well, Phyllis,
I want to start by saying thank you so much for
taking the time and coming on the Behind the
Shield podcast today. Oh, you're welcome. It's
really an honor and a privilege, and it's been
a joy to get to know you. So where on planet
Earth are we finding you, your morning, my afternoon?
I am in Carnation, which is a little town outside
of the Seattle area, about 30 minutes outside
of Seattle. And it's I live on 12 and a half
acres. It's lovely. How was the pandemic for
you having that kind of space? And I don't know
if you have kind of you grow your own food or
anything as well. But it seems like it was just,
you know, so challenging for people that were
in the city that maybe lived in, you know, like
a one bedroom apartment. But a lot of people
I know that already had some space that were
in the country seem to have a better experience
overall. Well, it really was wonderful, you know,
to be at home. And it was the transition of seeing
clients in my office to seeing clients via video
on telehealth. And I hadn't done much of that
before. It was just kind of emerging. And so
it was kind of fun to do it from home. But I
was only home for about a month. And then...
the police departments and fire departments that
I work with had me go home, you know, said you
need to, you need to not be here. And then after
a month they go, well, we need you back. And
so I was really only home a month and my clients
wanted to see me in person. A few of them would
do video after, you know, I was going back to
the office. They wanted to see me in person.
which I thought was interesting. So I am out
there in the middle of the first responders who
are also out there in the middle of the pandemic.
So I didn't get to stay home as much as everybody
else. It was interesting. I was already out of
the fire service by then. And I remember hearing.
The guy saying, yeah, well, if you know, if one
of us is exposed and the whole crew is out and
and I'm like, I'm no mathematician, but that's
not going to last very long. And sure enough,
you know, after a couple of weeks, people like,
oh, we're losing everyone. Yeah, we're going
to change those rules now. And it was funny watching
these kind of, you know, elastic rules that were
so hard and fast at the beginning. And then all
of a sudden people realize, all right, maybe
this isn't the best way of doing it. And, you
know, it expanded and contracted constantly.
It certainly did. I felt sorry for the firefighters
who had to put all this stuff on, you know, when
they went. I mean, it took them twice as long
to get to a call because they had to suit up,
basically. And before they could go into a house.
What impact did you see? That that particular
portion of our modern history have on the first
responders that you work with. The reason I ask,
obviously, I mean, you know, I think a lot of
people were affected, but some of the coping
mechanisms, certainly on the fire side, I know
that we've used are, for example, the table,
you know, the dining room table in the fire station.
And I'm hearing that everyone's got to have some
corner of the station to eat on their own. So
the very nature of some of these. you know, arguably
ridiculous distancing rules that were imposed,
seemed to take away a lot of the healing elements
for our first responder community, and I'm sure
amplified struggles they were already having.
I agree, but I don't know how long those guidelines
really stayed in place, to be honest. You know,
I think that they did at first, but when I, you
know, would go to the fire station, there...
all they're sitting next to each other good so
and you're right that's that's how they process
everything you know is around the kitchen table
and so i think in the beginning for a short time
um they did follow that um but i think it fell
away um they wouldn't say that out loud i don't
think but it did fall away because they needed
that and you know the pandemic started here in
seattle It was the first one. So we kind of,
it spread out from here. So what did you see?
I mean, we'll get obviously into the whole first
responder journey, but while we're on the topic,
that phase specifically on the first responders
that you actually, you know, take care of, what
impact did, you know, all those factors have
on the men and women in uniform? Well, what I
remember, it's been a while. What I remember
is, is. just feeling like no one was telling
them really what was going on. I mean, they had
people who were in charge of getting all the
information, you know, daily. But the frustration
of not getting what they needed, everything was
in short supply, you know, not being able to
work on the citizens like they normally did.
and really restricting their calls and you know
it just was very frustrating time for them i
didn't really no please they were the ones who
were giving the vaccines you know that's where
i went to get my vaccine shots you know was at
the fire station because everybody who worked
with them had to get them and the medics were
the ones giving them in the bay yeah well i think
this was what was so Unfair is the only word
I think I can think of that matches this. That
whole thing was so politicized. And you and I
spoke yesterday on the phone. We're talking about
the word politics put on things sometimes that
just need to be talked about. It's not politics,
it's health. But you had the same first responders
that are out there with sometimes almost no PPE
because of the shortage. They weren't vaccinated.
There was no protection whatsoever. And then
there was this mandate put on. And again, I think
it's this organizational betrayal. Now they were
being called murderers if they didn't take the
vaccine. Now I took the vaccine to go travel
because I wanted to see my grandmother who was
104 at the time. So I was like, okay, I will
take one for the team because I want to lessen,
minimize the chance of me taking anything. But
I also didn't think that the vaccine was going
to stop the spread because I didn't match with
the science that I've been taught since I was
a little boy. But to see... That, you know, complete
180 of these people that no one had an issue
with at all being out there unprotected. And
now they're being called murderers. And if they
don't take the vaccines, they should be fired.
Again, mentally, I felt that must have been extremely
damaging to a lot of them. It really was. And
one of the most painful things for me is watching
a group of firefighters taking a stance. And
they banded together. There was a group of about
10, you know, and they met regularly. They all
decided they weren't taking the vaccine. And
they, even though they, you know, said that they
were going to fire them if they didn't. And these
were really good firefighters. They were some
of the favorite people I enjoyed going to visit.
And it went all the way up to one of the BCs.
And they left. And it was so sad to see that
happen. And it was so short -sighted by the cities
who thought they were doing the right thing,
but they lost really good people. Yeah. And we're
in a crisis now. And it's funny, LA is still
terminating people. I had a guy that was terminated.
I think it was the very beginning of 2024. And
then I've been told that even now by a lawyer
who's still defending, you know, L .A. first
responders, he's like, no, they're still chasing
people. And we know the efficacy was no more
than the flip of a coin. And I'm not anti -vax.
I've got a friend who was a doctor and he was
like, the vaccinated people seem to survive.
You know, if you were already sick and you were
vaccinated, it seemed to give you a better. So
it's maybe a symptom reducer. But as far as,
you know, this is if you don't take this, you
should be terminated. There wasn't the efficacy
to be behind that. If it absolutely stopped the
virus in the tracks in your body, that's a whole
different conversation. But that wasn't what
was happening. And even by the time they were
terminating people, we knew that it wasn't 100
percent effective. So it was just such a. spit
in the face for all these veteran first responders
who had done nothing but serve for so many years.
And then they get either pushed out or terminated.
Yeah, I agree. The other interesting thing I
observed was the firefighters and the police
officers were, by the citizens, heralded as the
heroes, because they're out there doing their
job in the midst of this. horrible pandemic when
everybody else was stuck in the house. And then
all of a sudden George Floyd happened. And it
was like this whole flip, not so much for the
firefighters, but for the police officers. And
it was, you know, almost shocking. It happened
so fast. Well, let's jump ahead. We haven't even
got to your journey yet, but let's, let's open
that up because, because again, we were talking
about this the other day. You know, I had, I've
had numerous people on and obviously this topic
has come up. You know, as a paramedic looking
at that video, you know, knowing 14 years of
calls that I've been on, you know, clearly there
was some things that led to that death. And that's
unacceptable. But even if you listen to the law
enforcement, you know, the subject matter experts,
when it comes to these cases, they that those
officers were, you know, were prosecuted the
way they should have been prosecuted. So it wasn't
like it was swept under the rug. They had the
book thrown at them and each one of them had
the charge that they deserved. So this is what
was so sad. So while we're on this topic, we
mentioned earlier when we spoke about riots.
you know paint the picture what was the impact
on on the first responders that you were taking
care of as far as you know like you said one
minute they're heroes in the nhs and in the uk
and at five o 'clock everyone was coming out
and clapping which i don't think creates more
beds nurses or ppe but regardless at least you
had support um and then like you said all of
a sudden now law enforcement is demonized and
defunded it it was um It was fascinating in many
regards to watch and heartbreaking for me at
the same time. I was not working with Seattle
PD at that time. I was contracted with them about
a year later. But I was with King County Sheriff,
Redmond PD, and a couple of other agencies in
the surrounding area that were going in to help
them. And, you know, I had someone who was the
National Guard who was. Deployed there. And and
so I, you know, I'm there as they're getting
to go into the riots and and experiencing the
riots as they did. So in the beginning, I'm watching
it on TV. I'm hearing these stories from those
who've just gone in for a few days at a time.
And I kept thinking. By the intensity of what
was happening, that one of our officers. or more
were going to be killed. We were going to have
some line of duty deaths. I'm still shocked to
this day when I think about it that it didn't
happen because they were so intense. And as Seattle
officers began to come see me at my office as
clients, then I began to hear their stories and
their horrific stories. They were put on what's
called a blue and gold schedule, which is 12
on and 12 off and with no days off. And then
occasionally they go, OK, your turn. You can
have a day off. These guys and gals were exhausted.
You know, by the time they often work more than
12. And so by the time they they got off and
drove home, which they none of them live in Seattle,
they usually live about 45 minutes to an hour
away. They get home. They hug their wife and
their kids. They collapse in bed. Maybe they
got a shower and something to eat and they get
up and. grab something to eat and say goodbye.
And families were abandoned by the officers during
that time because the demand was so great. But
I have been doing some groups for Seattle officers.
We call it riot restoration because I heard so
much about the trauma that they had been through
and they had not dealt with it. And it had been
last year, it had been four years. And I've been
hearing this for three, four years now. And they're
still angry. They're still hurt. They had let
go of their anger at the citizens who they would
say in the beginning, they betrayed us. We would
lay down our life for you, but you betrayed us.
Because citizens would scream in their face,
horrible, horrible things. The things that they've
told me, you know, I'm going to. I'm going to
murder your wife. I'm going to rape your daughter.
I'm going to just horrible things in their face.
And they get right in their face and the officers
could do nothing. They were told they couldn't
do anything. The city took away all of their
tools. Now, the officers in Seattle are trained
to handle riots. They train all the time for
riots. So they know what to do. They knew how
to handle it. And they took away all their tools.
To do it. And and then on top of that, from what
officers have told me is that then a lot of the
command staff didn't show up. No one would give
them directions. Sometimes the sergeant wouldn't
show up or a lieutenant and they had no direction.
So they would self appoint who was going to be
in charge and then go out. And I'm at I work
once a week at East Precinct, which is the center
of the riots. And and. You know, the stories
of when they sealed the main door and then they
started a fire trying to burn them out. And it
was just the stories go on and on. And people
were getting officers were getting injured. They
were lighting fireworks. They were throwing frozen
water bottles. They were throwing rocks at them.
And they're standing trying to hold the line.
And then one of their buddies next to him would
go down. But they wouldn't know why or what happened.
And the National Guard who's standing behind
him would pull them out and take them to the
hospital or whatever they needed. And then they'd
have to close the line. But no one, they wouldn't
know for sometimes 8, 12 hours if their friend
was okay. And it was just so difficult on so
many levels. And the trauma, they tell the stories
and they laugh and they joke. But they haven't
gotten down. to really the emotional impact and
the trauma that they went through so i started
this group it took me two years to get the okay
but i finally started it and it it's been amazing
because this is the first time they've unpacked
it and i remember one of the first sessions that
we had one officer was over on my right telling
his story because i asked them to tell the story
Not the story they've told over and over again
to their friends and their fellow officers, but
the story of what they experienced. And so this
officer is telling that story of what he went
through, what he experienced. And to my left,
all of a sudden I hear something. I look over
and there's a sergeant just sobbing. And I realized
immediately that he had never unpacked anything.
And that lid was starting to come off. And so
it's been really wonderful to work with. We only
do 10 at a time. So it's a small group and it's
a slow process for the size of agency it is.
But it's a voluntary thing that they can come.
They get to do it on duty. And those that have
come have said that it has really made a difference.
It's only six weeks. It's not that long for two
hours. And I tell them, this is just the... This
is just the start point. You know, this isn't
the magic wand that'll heal it all. All of you
will have to do more work, but at least it starts
them on that journey. And one really cool thing
just happened last week is one of the wives,
who's also an officer, came to me and I'd never
met her before. And she said, I just had to find
you to tell you. What a difference your group
has made in my husband. He said he's not as angry
and it has just changed him and healed. You know,
he's had a lot of healing. And I just had to
find you to say thank you, which was amazing.
One of the elephants that I see in the first
responder mental health room is organizational
betrayal or organizational stress. Talk to me
about the impact. And obviously, that's one example.
We were talking the other day, the Capitol Police
officers after the insurrection, I think they
were completely, you know, the nation turned
their back on them. And I think it's disgusting.
I mean, my personal opinion is we shouldn't be
forgiving anyone that goes into a federal building.
I mean, if you run through the TSA. You're going
to get taken down or shot. That's how it works.
You know, you can't just run into a building,
but you dress yourself as a buffalo and all of
a sudden you're forgiven. I don't understand
that at all. There's a lot of frustration with
a lot of governments doesn't, you know, means
that we have to do it a certain way. But, you
know, again, I don't think the Capitol Police
had the support, not from their department, but
from their nation, from the law enforcement community,
from the people that should have stood up and
said, what about them? They, you know. Not that
they are playing a victim, but they're the victims.
They're the ones that thought they were going
to die. They're the ones scrambling to protect
all these people within this building. You know,
no one knew what was actually going to happen
when these people went in. And so I see a huge
organizational betrayal there. What is the impact
of organizational betrayal through your eyes
on these first responders? It's huge. It's been
four and a half years since the riots and the
organization. I call it admin betrayal, the admin
or it's, you know, the organizational betrayal
they they experienced during the riots of people,
command staff being afraid to make decisions.
You know, it was so tenuous and and they feel
so betrayed that they're still angry. And, you
know, I've asked them, what do you need to heal
that? anger and that resentfulness towards command
staff. And one thing they've said is just to
own what you did. And they go, but that'll never
happen. They'll never own it. And there's a lot
of truth there. One of the amazing things is
we have a temporary chief at Seattle. They've
hired the permanent chief. she's leaving at the
end of the month, but she sat down, we sat down
together and I told her about the group, which
she didn't even know about, which was interesting.
And, and, um, you know, she was the first person
that, that actually said, you know, I've been
trying to figure out how to heal this department.
And this is the missing link you. are bringing
me the missing link of how to help them heal,
what they really are experiencing. Because if
you talk to command, they don't get it. And I
think that part of the betrayal, I told her that
every reaction to anything command does goes
through that filter from the riots. It's still
there. And unless you heal that, it's going to
continue to be that way until all of these officers
are gone. And she was the first person who said,
I want to sit down with some of those people
and hear what they have to say. And I asked,
I had two groups at that time, and I sent a text
to them all and said, who would like to sit down,
you know, with Chief Rohr? And everybody said,
absolutely. I'm in, I'm in, I'm in. And because
they want to be heard. And so many decisions
come down. that do not recognize the impact it
will have on the line. And if they just cared
about the impact, not just how it makes them
look or, you know, it might make the agency look
better, but thinking about the officers, how
is this going to impact the officers? How will
they feel? I mean, it'd be novel for them to
actually go and talk to the officers and say,
I'm thinking about doing this. What's your thought?
How do you think that'll impact you? That would
be a novel idea. But I think that they often
don't ask. They don't consider the feelings.
And I think that, you know, anybody who feels,
I always tell anytime I have command staff's
ear, I say, it's not that hard. Just if you help
people feel valued and appreciated and that you
have their back, they'll be loyal to the court.
You won't have to pay them as much. You know,
they'll work for less because they know you have
their back and that you care about them and you
appreciate them. This is what I'm seeing is rampant
in the fire side as well. And I talk about this
all the time, but the most of the fire service,
the firefighters work 56 hours a week, the career
firefighters. And, you know. By that devolving
working environment and then the recruitment
crisis creating more and more overtime, and now
these people are working 80 hours a week, the
solution is to obviously address that, make a
healthy work week. And if you compare police
and fire, police work about 40 hours. So it's
insanity. But there's such a pushback, especially
from the, and I'm using air quotes, top, because
I think that's being generous. And we've got
to take a step back and go, So let me get this
straight. The men and women who work 40 hours
a week, who go home at five every night and sleep
in their own bed, are telling the firefighters
on the line that they can't work less than 56
and they can't go back to their family. See,
this is exactly it. I mean, we have to take a,
you know, really kind of reframe what our position
is. And we are supposed to be servants, public
servants. Well, if you're at a higher rank, the
people you're serving. Is your your men and women
in uniform, the men in uniform are actually serving
the public, but you're serving your people. And
I'm seeing such a disconnect. And we've got to
refine that community, that tribal element of
police, fire, EMS, dispatch, corrections, all
the uniform professions. Yeah. Well, I if I ever
get a chance to talk to a new sergeant or in
fire, it'd be a lieutenant that I say you are
the most important person in the entire agency.
And I said, because you have the ear of the line
and you are the one who will know what's going
on at home, how they're doing at work, what they're
struggling with. You know, are they doing well?
Are they not? And you're going to know everything
about them. And you are the one who can make
them feel valued and cared for and come alongside
when they, you know, mess up, which everybody
does from time to time instead of, you know,
just. um criticizes and disciplining in which
some sergeants and lieutenants you know come
down really hard but if you come alongside and
say hey we need to work on this let me let me
help you or this other you know officer or firefighter
can can work with you and you really have their
back in that way I try to encourage them to see
that because there are really good sergeants
and lieutenants in both areas. And there's some
who just don't get it. And they make their squads
or teams feel disconnected. I was listening to
Joe Rogan a while ago, and he had a man on said
guru, who's this kind of, you know, Indian guru
gentleman. But he made a comment because Joe
was talking about the kind of evil pharmaceutical
companies and all that. And he was talking about
struggling. And the guy said, yeah, they're struggling,
too. And I'd never thought about that. If you
are the head of William Morris and you make cigarettes,
or you're a head of Purdue Pharma and you create
OxyContin, and you can sleep in your bed soundly
at night knowing that hundreds of thousands of
Americans are dying from your product, I would
argue there's a mental health issue. You're a
borderline sociopath. When I look at the first
responder professions, like locally, the county
that protects me, who've had four suicides in
four years. and still refuse to do anything to
change the work week and some other areas, I
would argue that one of the issues is we're not
considering that maybe even the people or the
bugles have to go and do the work and they don't
have the mental capacity to have that empathy
because they've got their own challenges in their
head as well. That's my opinion. What is your
perception of that? Well, I'm sorry, I asked
the question again. All of a sudden my mind was
going a different direction. No, no, no problem.
So, so my thing is, you know, rather than, you
know, they're the bad guys because they are,
their actions are absolutely the bad guys. If
you, again, like look at the, the Sackler family
and what happened with, with OxyContin, it was
disgusting. But when you frame it as those people
have mental health challenges. Then to me, it's
like, well, this chief that doesn't seem to care
about all their people dying, if they got some
help, would they refine their empathy and start
fighting for their people? So it's not a judgmental
issue. But, you know, I think that some of these
people are in these positions that have been
carrying their own baggage. And if left unaddressed,
they can bury it down, go home at five and not
think about anyone else. And that's how the line
often feels that that whether or not that's true,
that's how they feel. about them. I know that
command staff or those who are leading organizations,
I know it's not easy, but sometimes my perception
and observation is they care more about their
image and the money they make and the politics.
than they do about people and and that's where
i would love to see as they promote people um
not you know they it's i don't know how you know
people listening to the broadcast probably know
but there's a lot it's a long journey to test
to go up you know you jump through a lot of hoops
and you have to study and you know books and
tests and all that but so it's the people who
take tests well and study well and are smart
that often get promoted, but they don't always
have emotional intelligence. And that's what
bothers me. I would like to see them promote
people and have some type of evaluation of what
is their emotional intelligence. How do they
connect with people? Do they understand what
people are going through? Do they think of the
others below them? That's what I would like to
see happen. And the other thing that you mentioned
is about the hours. You know, sleep is, I had
somebody come in my office. I've been doing this
for 18 years, working with first responders as
an MHP. And someone came into my office a couple
of weeks ago and I always ask about sleep and
they go, oh, you know, I sleep really well. And
I go, are you lying to me? Because I never have
anyone say that. Because they just don't sleep.
Firefighters and police officers, the same. And
sleep is the foundation of good mental health,
emotional health, physical health. It's the foundation
of everything. And we should pay more attention.
I've never understood the fire schedule. I think
it's crazy. I always have. We have one agency
in our area. I see someone from there and he
was explaining that they're going to 24 hours
on and three days off, which is a definite improvement
because they do all 48s up here. And I was happy
to hear that, that they're actually paying attention
to sleep, but it's costing them money and they're
paying it. They have to hire more people because
they're going to more crews. I love it. I think
that they're putting value on people over, you
know, the money, the politics or whatever causes
them to not want to spend the money to do a different
schedule. I wonder if it's the department. I
was just talking to someone and we chatted a
while ago and he actually reached out to me a
couple of days ago and said, hey, James, I just
want to let you know I'm five shifts into the
24 -72. And so we talked about this because I've
been championing this for eight years now. And
it's not my idea. There's departments that have
already done it. It's just to me, when you start
listening to all these experts, you're like,
well, sleep is important. What's the answer?
Well, more rest between shifts. OK, 42 hour work
week. Well, that's what everyone else works.
It's not some crazy, hey, we just want to work
five hours a week. Can we work the same as everyone
else? Is that OK? We are saving lives and getting
up in the middle of the night. But yeah, but
that's what's so interesting is this is the solution.
And the money, ironically, if you look at Seattle,
for example, if you just ask them, how much do
you spend on overtime? It will be millions and
millions and millions of dollars. And that's
because they're filling these holes in this recruitment
crisis. What departments here, because we had
a beautiful year last year where seven fire departments
made the move, including Palm Beach County, which
is a huge one. When that happens, they're getting
people lining up around the building again to
become a firefighter for them. Because just like
you touched on earlier, we're showing you that
we care about you. We're investing in you. We
want to give you an environment that sets you
up for success, gets you home with your family
so you can be at those games and recitals with
your children. you know, the rest and recovery.
And even, I think this is a really important
thing too. Now you have the kind of latitude
to forge, you know, a second career, not like
work, you know, all hours God sent. But if you're
a personal trainer or, you know, you're a painter
or a cabinet fitter or whatever it is, now you
can go work eight hours on some of these days
and God forbid you get laid off, you get hurt,
you get fired. You have this other tribe and
this other career as well. The money that's saved
once they fill all the vacancies because people
want to work for you, now these cities and counties
are going to save millions and millions every
single year, which now could go into hiring mental
health counselors, putting gyms and stations,
all the things that will only continue to improve.
So this is what I love. And in the Northwest,
some of them have the full platoon system, but
they work debit days, which is crazy to me. Like
here's a 42 hour work week, but it's only 42
hours. So we need you to work more again, coming
from someone that works 40. But I think they're,
they're closer. So I think the Northwest might
be another Florida as this kind of gets some
legs, hopefully other departments will get away
because the push was to go to a 48 96, which
is insane. 48 hours in a busy department, but
it's, that's again, it's. They say a little knowledge
is a dangerous thing. People found a study, which
was a study on a department that ran about one
call a shift, almost no calls at night. And then
Seattle or whoever the large department ran with
it, like, oh, this is a better shift. And it's
like, no, no, no, no. That's like saying, you
know, my doctor told me cigarettes are good for
me, so I'm going to start smoking. Well, you
know, and I always think, you know, they. You're
at your 48s and I have the firefighters who come
see me. They've worked 48 and then they're going
out on calls. Sometimes at the end of the shift,
a call comes in, they got to go. And so sleep
deprivation is like being at alcohol level and
the brain is not functioning. And what are they
thinking? I just worry about them. And then they're
driving these million dollar rigs around. So
I just think I'm surprised we haven't had more
disasters, but I hope that it changed. I'm glad
that you're advocating. It's never made sense
to me. So I'm so glad to hear that you're advocating
that schedule. Yeah. I mean, I think for performance
and mental health, for all the things, it's a
it's a no brainer, but it's just I'll be completely
honest. You know, we are. Completely brainwashed
in the fire service because we are a selfless
group. There are people all over the country
that do it for no money whatsoever. And so that
is still kind of hanging on. But where other
companies have evolved as things have got bigger
and bigger stores or train lines or whatever
that industry is, they hire more people. They
expand the fire service, I think, sadly, because
they know that we're going to go regardless because
we want to serve people. that's been taken advantage
of and which is why we're so far from where we
need to be so the uh you know the future of the
fire service i hope is is longevity is a higher
level of fitness and performance and hopefully
10 years from now young recruits will walk through
a door and they won't be greeted with oh you
wait 10 years from now you'll be on your third
divorce and an alcoholic you know that's just
i mean if that's not a red flag i don't know
what it is yeah well sometimes when i've asks
firefighters about it, they actually really have
said to me, I like the schedule because I have
all these days off. And I could trade out, you
know, and take a vacation without taking vacation
time. And, you know, so I've gotten a little
pushback from the firefighters as well. I have
too. And I'm actually, I'm in the process of
writing a piece on cowardice in the fire service.
And it's exactly that. If you're pushing back
against more time at home, then you've completely
lost your way. You know, if you just think this
identity of being at work is more important than
being present with your children, especially
if we're talking about multi -generational trauma,
if you were never there, you are destroying your
kids' mental health. So it's really reframing
it and getting away from this kind of, you know,
chest beating face, fake machismo that seems
to be, you know, around at the moment and refine
what is most important. To me, my family was
even before the fire service, which is why I
traveled all the way to the West Coast and all
the way back to the East. because I put my family
first. So if you put that back front and center,
and then you learn the impact of sleep deprivation
on the chances of our children having pediatric
diseases goes up immensely, then it's for them.
It's not about you and your mustache and your
selfies. It's about your family, your relationship,
your children's health, and your ability to be
present. But like you said, that's a hard sell,
especially when you do have an overworked, stressed.
men and women in uniform, the ability to critically
think goes down and you do become a zombie and
you just keep doing what you've always been doing.
Yes, I agree. All right. Well, you mentioned
about 18 years in mental health and first responder
profession. Let's kind of finally go back to
your early life. So tell me where you were born
and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic,
what your parents did, how many siblings. Wow,
you're really going back. I grew up in a small
farming town in Central California. It was Ripon.
It was a Dutch farming community, and it was
a great place to grow up. It was when you roamed
the streets at a young age without parents. And
I had three other siblings, but they were much
older than I was. I have a sister who's 13 years
older, a brother 11 years older, and a brother
four years older. So I have some only child characteristics
and youngest child characteristics, which is
an interesting combination. So what did your
parents do as occupation? Oh, well, my dad was
in the propane business. So he provided the propane
to the farmers. And then my mom was his bookkeeper.
So I grew up in a home where mom worked, which
was very rare in those days. Yeah, absolutely.
So I often came home as a young kid. I even remember
first and second grade and no one was home. Yeah,
I did. My dad would say, oh, well, she can come
down to the store because I could walk there.
But it was so boring. I was lucky. My dad was
a veterinary surgeon, so it wasn't boring going
to work with him, you know, fixing. When you
reflect horses and, you know, we had every animal
known to man at some point. Well, speaking of
that, so when you reflect back now. And we talked
before about where you're living now and having
this kind of nature all around you and the healing
elements there. What were the, whether it's the
way you ate, the way you moved, you know, mental
health tools that were kind of woven in, what
were the good things about that upbringing? And
were there any things that were actually detrimental
as you unpacked it later in life? Well, the good
things were I was surrounded by a community that
knew me and loved me. which is good and bad.
Sometimes, you know, as I got older, they knew
everything before, you know, my parents did sometimes,
but, but it was really a wonderful community.
You know, I can hop on my bike and ride anywhere
and wherever you were, the mom at lunchtime,
the mom just fed you, you know, and at five,
she shooed everybody home. I mean, it was just
a really a wonderful, you know, way to grow up
learning at a young age, how to work. You know,
I started working as soon as you could get your
permit to work, which was, I think, 12. I think
it was younger than I because I was like between
fifth and sixth grade. I would get up at five
in the morning and go pick berries, you know,
so learned work ethic at a young age. We had
we had walnuts and almonds or almonds, as you
East Coasters call them, and grape. I mean, we
had all that that we farmed ourself on our own
property as well as helping others. And so, you
know, it was a great a great way to grow up.
The downside, you know, as I grew up, I did have
to deal with some sexual abuse by a brother when
I was in junior high and, you know, was raped
when I was 16 on a date. So, you know, there
was some tough stuff that happened there too.
You know, as I've gotten older and talked to
others, you know, there were others in our community
who suffered those kind of things as well. And
it was all a big secret. No one ever talked about
it. You know, if if if someone got pregnant,
they were sent away and they'd come home after
the baby was born. So it was that kind of community
as well. So that would be the downside. Yeah,
that's a. That's absolutely awful downside. I'm
so sorry that happened to you. I've heard it
so much, though. I mean, people come on. I obviously
a lot of them are military and first responders,
but a lot of them from other areas, too. And
the prevalence of sexual abuse in our uniform
professions, for example, is a lot of them who
are men, you know, is far greater than I ever
thought. added to the prevalence of this in your
community? That's a really good question. If
we're talking multi -generationally, and with
my therapist hat on, I think these patterns were
passed down for generations. I'm curious where
it started. My grandparents came from Holland
when they were in their 20s. They didn't know
each other. until they came to the united states
um but um you know today i would call my grandfather
a pedophile i thought i didn't mention my grandfather
but he you know since early age um three you
know he he would do things and you know it just
made me uncomfortable and and it was as an adult
talking to my cousin you know i think that She,
you know, described some things too. So I'm wondering
how many grandchildren, because there was 12
kids in my dad's family. You know, one died in
World War II as a pilot. So we had lots of grandkids.
You know, he had lots of grandkids. And I wondered
how the sisters, my aunts, you know, I wondered
what they experienced growing up. And where did
this start? Because it doesn't come out of nowhere.
Usually something's happened to them that creates
this behavior. So generationally, you know, I'd
be curious to go back to find out where it started.
But I think a closed community that aren't talking
and that they keep secrets, you know, it's it's
about image and it can be very shame based is
what perpetuates this under the waterline. It's
funny because you could be describing police
or fire right now with that same description.
So reflecting on the community then. They say
it takes a village, you know, to raise a child.
And I agree completely. And I feel like this
is the one of the things we've got away that
are contributing to some of the issues that we
see in society. And you have, you know, let's
say they're not even single parents, a couple,
and they've got four children and they're trying
to balance daycare and the jobs. And, you know,
they're passing like ships in the night. And
if you look at, you know, tribal humans, those
children, as just like you were saying, would
have been kind of raised collectively by everyone.
so we talked about the dark side of what you
know wasn't spoken about what about that element
of community and and you know do we need to kind
of refine that to to raise these young people
and maybe even stop this multi -generational
trauma well i i'm not sure i have the answer
to how to stop it but what i've heard so many
stories of of even like you said even guys i
I probably have had equal on both sides, men
and women. But it's often probably the most prevalent
has been the babysitter. It was the neighbor
who babysat because mom was working. You know,
I went there every day after school or it was
the neighbor's dad, you know. So I think that
we as parents need to be extremely careful. Who
we leave our children with and make sure we know
and trust them, because that's where I hear of
it again and again and again and again. I just
had a member of I'm blanking which law enforcement.
task force he was a part of but he was uh hunting
pedophiles and then putting cases together against
them and he was saying exactly that you know
the coach the school teacher the the priest you
know and i remember someone asked if my son wanted
to join the scouts and i was like no and it wasn't
that those individuals locally that i thought
they were all pedos but it's just you know once
bitten twice shy when organizations have failed
to actually address what's going on then of course
you're going to be cautious and you know if i'm
not be able to oversee um that happening and
my son did like the jrotc program so they did
like a camp a military camp like four days and
so he got a taste of that kind of you know scout
camping thing but surrounded by lots lots and
lots of children and teachers so no one was kind
of isolated but yeah i'll be completely honest
that terrified me You know, it's a shame because
I got lots of friends that are, you know, Eagle
Scouts, Scout leaders that I know do amazing
things. But there's certain things I just wasn't
willing to risk. And even my son, you know, sleepovers
and that kind of thing. He was extremely it was
old by the time he did his sleepovers because,
you know, I couldn't. How do you know? You know,
oh, they're nice. OK, well, they're nice. But
that's exactly the profile of a pedophile is
they're nice. They're loved by everyone. And
that's the way they're trusted. So it really
is. It is tough. But I think, again, that community,
that village, if lots of people are looking,
then maybe we'll reduce the ability for a predator
to actually prey on a child. But if they're trusted
in some basketball program and now everyone else
has gone home except your child and the coach,
these are some of the things that are terrifying
to me. Well, and the other thing, I remember
telling my mom in fifth grade that grandpa made
me uncomfortable and would touch me. you know,
in places. And she told me, well, you shouldn't
say things like that about your grandfather.
And, you know, she didn't believe me. And I think
that we really need to, one, pay attention. When
our kids say something, we need to pay attention.
And we need to ask questions. And, you know,
believe them when they say certain things. And
the other thing is to trust your gut. Because
if you have somebody with your child or around
your child that your gut just you can't put your
finger on it, but it just doesn't feel right.
Pay attention to that because it's telling you
something. Absolutely. Yeah, I saw the documentary
on Jared, the subway spokesperson, and everyone
again was trusting him. And it was actually a
woman that befriended him that no one was believing.
And so she ended up taking phone calls with him.
And he was talking about he likes him, you know,
the younger, the better. And I mean, he was a
full on like extreme end pedophile. And it was
just nauseating. Listen to him. But again, he's
this beloved celebrity that people are throwing
kids at, just like Michael Jackson, which, again,
I don't understand the resistance to having that
conversation. Clearly, he was grooming because
he would send the parents away and have the kids
in his bedroom. But yeah, I mean, even now. Well,
yeah, but he wore a beautiful, shiny glove and
he could dance. So we'll just not talk about
that. You know, how about we do talk about it?
You know, I think it's, you know, just because
they're charming doesn't mean it discounts. So
they have to look like some creepy old homeless
guy to be a pedophile in your eyes. And I think
that that's an important thing for us to acknowledge
is that, yeah, you might know someone incredibly
charming that you really like. That doesn't mean
they're not a danger to your child. Yes. All
right. Well, then going back to your kind of
career path, as you were in those formative years,
those high school years especially, were you
already thinking about psychology or was there
some other career aspiration in mind? Well, I
didn't have that career aspiration, but I always
loved it. My senior year, they offered a psychology
class for the first time and I took it. And I
realized I was always fascinated by that because
I wanted to understand why I felt the way I did.
what I experienced, trying to unpack that. And
so I think that's where my curiosity came from.
But, you know, I met an amazing, lovely guy who
had just finished his college at Stanford and
moved down to where I was and met and we fell
in love. He was from Seattle. So that's how I
ended up in Seattle. And, you know, we were married.
10 years when we had three children, there were
three, six, and eight, and he was 35 when he
was in a car accident. And he was in a vegetative,
he was in a coma for a year. And then, I don't
know if you, you probably understand that it's
kind of, you know, you could put your hands in
front of their face and there's nothing there.
That would be a coma. But when, you know, when
they come out, it's like an infant, they can
make connection. with their eyes with you. So
then after a year, he was in that state until
he died. And so the first five years, I just
believed if we found the right therapy, the right
doctors, the right something, he would get better.
And so I took care of him for several years at
home, raising the three kids by myself. But after
five years, I realized he wasn't going to get
better. And I suddenly had to figure out take
care of my family. And, and so I finally went
into therapy, which I should have been in long
before, but we were living below the poverty
line on social security and disability. And,
you know, we could barely afford food half the
time. And so, so I went into therapy and through
the conversations, we, he encouraged me to go
back to school, which is what my late husband,
Scott had always encouraged me to do. And so
I only had two years of college. So I ended up
going to through a BA completion program and
taking some classes at the junior college at
the same time and raising the kids. I don't know
how I did it, but, you know, we do amazing things
when we have to. I was 40. And so I didn't even
know how to use a computer yet. And a friend
gave me a used one and I learned how to use.
I took a class called Computers for the Fearful
and and then learned how to do my papers online
and on my computer. And at graduation, I saw
those other students getting their hoods and
I'm like, I think I can do this. Look what I
accomplished already. And so that was the moment
I decided to go on and got my master's in counseling.
So I started out, you know, just seeing. And
people would send those grief and loss and some
trauma because they knew that was kind of my
foundation. And then a couple of years, maybe
two or three years in, I got a call from a chaplain,
a police and fire chaplain. And he says, Phyllis,
I've been praying. We need another chaplain.
And every time I pray, yours is the only name
I get. And I go, a what? I'd never heard of it.
And I heard of a hospital chaplain, but I didn't
know what a police and fire chaplain was. But
I knew in that moment that was what I was to
do. And so, you know, he began to. Bring me along
with him and tell me how to do this work. And
so I would see my clients two days a week and
then I would take the pager and, you know, I
get dispatched in the middle of the night, three
in the morning and go to a call. And I would
sit with the with the citizen. Usually it was
a death or they projected it was going to be
a death and typically fire called. But sometimes
it was police. And and then. I would sit with
the families. My favorite part of being a chaplain
was I would show up and the BC or the officer
in charge would meet me and go, oh, I'm so glad
you're here. And they would give me a short and
then they'd walk me and introduce me. But just
being so welcomed and invited, you know, and
and appreciated, you know, I loved that part.
And and so then I would sit with the family and
I was the one person. That was consistent with
the family. And, you know, they don't know who
who's a firefighter, who's a medic, you know,
who's the police officer or who do I talk to
or ask this question? And so that was what I
would do. And and I would explain, you know,
who these people were and if they had a question,
who to ask. And and then I would help them figure
out if their loved one died, help them. Whether,
you know, I'd explain, you know, we need the
medical examiner to come out. And so we have
an NJA. Now, you know, I explained all that and
and would help them if they needed a funeral
home. I'd help them find one. And if it was a
particularly bad call, then I would go back and
meet with the firefighters and the officers and
check on them and see how they were doing. And
so did learned how to do critical incident. briefings,
CISDs. And, um, and then they started coming
to see me in my office as well as, you know,
I was working, um, seeing them while I was going
out on calls. So I did that. I was a volunteer,
um, volunteered my time for seven years doing
that. And I loved it. You know, it was great.
And then the police chief, um, who was there
at the time came to me and said, I want to hire
you as an MHP, a mental health provider to be
on site so many hours a week. And and then be
available for crisis when they happen or. And
so I signed a contract with them. And a month
later, King County Sheriff called, said, will
you work with us and our peer support team? And
then another agency called and, you know, it
just started to unfold. I I often say I have
an accidental business. I never set out to have
this business, but I. You know, it just kept
growing and they wanted more and more MHPs on
site. It was just at that edge where they're
starting to do that. And so I had to hire some
other therapists to work with me. And they all
see clients as they all see clients. And then
they also work on site at an agency. We have
10 contracts with different agencies in the area.
And so three years ago, about a year after the
riots. Seattle PD had a line of duty death. And
one of the officers that I'd gotten to know called
me at 7 o 'clock in the morning and said, we
need you. Will you come? So I canceled my entire
week and sat with them. And one of my King County
sergeants, who was a friend, said, you know they're
going to go after you. And I said, no, they're
not. I am just helping them out. And six weeks
later, I got a call. Can we talk? We'd like to
hire you to put MHPs at each precinct, which
was an amazing thing for them to do. And so that's
when I started to work with Seattle as well,
which has been probably the biggest undertaking
of all agencies I've worked with. I can imagine.
Going back to your husband for a moment, did
you have to make the decision to terminate or
did he pass away on his own? Well, I had some
brave souls along the way ask me, you know, have
you thought about, you know, removing life support?
And I would say no. I would never even think
of that because Scott was really a major part
of my healing journey, you know, through all
of that, with that abuse and all of that. And
he was the one who believed in me. In 10 years,
my life changed so much from him and just his
incredible love for me. There was no way I was
just going to take his life support. And I wanted
to take care of him. But after I got my master's
degree and I was working, we had a disability
attorney. So I went to him and he knew I'd been
in school. And I said, what do I do now? I said,
I can't work. Because I couldn't go to work because
he was on Medicaid. And if I went to work, I'd
have to pay. He was now in a nursing home. I'd
have to pay the $10 ,000 of his care and make
enough money to take care of our family. And
I just wasn't capable of that. And so he said,
well, have you ever thought about removing life
support? And later he called it a two Kleenex
box meeting. Because he gave me a box of Kleenex
and I went through it and I had to go get another
one because I just sat there and cried. I just
couldn't imagine. And it wasn't long, maybe six
months earlier, there'd been a big case in the
news where, you know, there was a battle between
the mom and dad of this person and the wife.
And I said, I do not want to go there. And I
don't want my kids have been through enough.
I don't want them to go through that, too. And,
and so I remember going out to the parking lot
and I couldn't even drive for almost an hour
because I was just so upset, but I began to think
about it. And one thing I'd learned through all
of that experience is I didn't make a decision.
If I waited for that gut level piece, it was
always the right decision. But if I jumped out
and made a decision before that, it was often
the wrong decision. I only told two people. One
was a close friend who was a therapist and one
was Scott's mom. And she was very supportive.
And she said, whatever you decide to do, Phyllis,
it's up to you. And it took me three months to
be able to come to that decision. And so I sat
down with his parents and and they were very.
you know, supportive. And they said, you know,
you've been amazing at how you've taken care
of Scott. And, and we, you know, are there for
whatever you need to do. It wasn't easy for them.
It was hard too. And then I met with each of
my kids one -on -one and they cried and cried.
And I'd said, well, what do you think your dad
would want? Do you think he would want to stay
in this state? Or be free and be able to walk
again in heaven. And they go, oh, to, you know,
be able to walk and run again. I said, OK. And
and then I met with each of his siblings. So,
you know, my in -laws, I met with each one of
his brother, his sister and two brothers and
talked to them. And then the requirement, the
law, at least in Washington, I'd have two doctors
verify that it was appropriate. And then the
facility he was in. had to agree. So there was
a little bit of issue with the facility and the
attorney got involved, but we worked through
all that. And so finally, I mean, it was like
five months later, you know, we finally had all
the approvals and, and I sat there, you know,
after all, all of that, it was a very simple
thing. He was in hospice at that point, we had
moved him to hospice and the nurse said, are
you ready? I mean, basically just took out the
feeding tube. And it was such a quiet, simple
process. And after such emotional agony and,
you know, the kids said, please let us know when
it's done. So I just called the school and said,
we just give them a message. It's done. And so
then we waited. And he lived for over a week.
And the nurse came to me and said, you know,
I know you wanted to take him home. That wasn't
an option in the beginning. And she said, if
you want to take him home, you need to take him
home now. And so we arranged to take him home.
And an ambulance, private ambulance came to get
him. We loaded him. And I'm sitting in the back
with him. I had the most amazing experience that's
hard to really explain, but he stared at me the
entire time and just with so much love. And he
wasn't cognitive, able to really process a lot,
but he just stared at me and I could hear in
my spirit him thanking me and telling me how
much he loved me. And we got in the house and
the hospice nurse was there. We got him set up.
And within an hour, he went into respiratory
arrest. And then, you know, it was just the morphine
after that. And the next morning, we're all sitting
around his bed. And I'm sure you know what it's
like, that last breath. You know, you kind of
think, oh, was that it? And then he breathes
again. Okay. And then you hold your breath. okay
is that when it and then finally no more breasts
came and and um i just had this vision immediately
of him jumping yelling and screaming when he
arrived in heaven and everybody's turning around
going who was that that just got here yeah well
i mean thank you for sharing that there's i think
it's important that there may be some people
listening that are having to consider that decision
i actually is when i was in medic school It was
a bizarre shift at work on my my fire department.
I delivered a baby and then I went and did a
clinical literally that same day. I think it
was that evening. And I was in the ICU and extubated
a terminally ill patient. So I kind of brought
a life in and then, you know, helped someone
leave. And it's such a difficult decision for
these families to make. But when you think about.
The quality of life and you gave it so much time,
you know, because you do hear these recovery
stories. But, you know, when when is that line?
When is when is enough enough? And, you know,
now you were able to have closure with your children
as well. So, I mean, I can't imagine how hard
that must have been. But on the same time, the
upside of it as well. Yeah, there were lots of
tears. I can imagine. Well, you talked about,
you know, elements of abuse that you had early
when you were a young woman. And then, you know,
Scott helps you in this incredible healing journey.
And then he has this catastrophic, you know,
event in the car. And now you're having to, you
know, remove the feeding tube and then watch
him leave you again. What were the tools that
you lent into for your own mental health? I mean,
we've been talking about how you're helping other
people. What was your toolbox that you accumulated
after losing your soulmate? You know, I found
that being in therapy was a big part of my journey.
And I had an amazing psychologist that I met
with and the one who encouraged me to go back
to school. And, you know, I'm still in contact
with him. He was a big part, but also the support
I had around me made a lot of difference. I read
a lot during that time. to help understand my
own process. I think I get asked the question
a lot of how I handle all the stories, you know,
that I hear and from, you know, being on scene
myself and how do I deal with that trauma? And
we live in a place that... You know, it's 12
and a half acres. I look at the mountains and
the trees and and I've really found that that
is an important part for me. When I was having
a really tough day when Scott was alive, I would
grab my journal, my Bible and a blanket and I
would go find the water. And I would sit in a
park, you know, and I would write and write and
write and sit and stare at the water. And there's
something that would I call it nurture my soul.
And and often I'd sit there till I was shaking.
I was so cold and I'd have to go back in the
car and drive home. But I've always found part
of it is is nature and and just it calms my soul.
And the other is is friends, you know, who really
are empathic and understanding. And willing to
support me and walk alongside me. I don't think
I could have gotten through all of that healing
journey and from Scott and the abuse, all of
it without having good people around me who love
me dearly. What's interesting reflecting. What
people were told during the pandemic. The reason
why I talk about the pandemic still is that there
are things that we can take away. I feel that
was an element of just sweeping it under the
rug and we don't want to talk about it now. Well,
when, you know, when are we going to learn what
went well and what went terribly if we don't
kind of pick it apart after the fact? But being
told to stay in your house, being told not to
be around your friends and family. I mean, then
the nutritional side, fast food, alcohol delivered
to your house, binge watch Netflix. I mean, there
were so many things that go against what actually
forges good mental health. But when I hear and
ask people that question, how do you decompress?
Just the last guest before you yesterday, same
thing. He's a surfer. He's a free diver. It's
the water. I go to Crescent Beach. For me, it's
the water. It's nature. It's all these things.
So, you know, next time if there's a pandemic,
I hope people are like, no, go to the beach.
Go to the park. Don't lick each other's faces.
Let's not go crazy now. But, you know, get in
the daylight. Get the sun on your skin and get
dirt under your nails. And these are the things
that kept a lot of people healthy for a long
time. And even when I reflect on my early life.
which had, you know, numerous traumas, why didn't
I get as low as some of these, you know, men
and women I had on the show? It's because that
was woven into my childhood, just by pure luck,
just chance. I was on a farm, you know, my dad
healed animals. So I had equine therapy, I had
canine therapy, I had, you know, nature, I had
a large dining room table that we all laughed
and joked around my family. So, you know, these
simple human elements are so, so important. and
you reflect on living in New York City as concrete
jungle, how many of those healing elements are
just, they're just not available. So I think
these are really important to reflect on, you
know, what are the things that work and how can
people kind of position themselves to be able
to be outside more and do all these things that
seem to naturally help the healing process. I
agree. And and but I think it's different for
everybody. I probably hear as I ask that question
to the first responders and and hiking, being
out on my dirt bike. Those are the things that
I hear most often from them. So I think that
that's true for a lot of them. But for some,
it's different. For some, it's staying quiet
and reading a book in front of the fireplace.
It's about finding what works for you. I said,
what nurtures your soul? And then do that. Absolutely.
Well, you mentioned about going into our profession
18 years ago. Talk to me about the first impression.
what was already good and what was absolutely
terrible? And then what is the metamorphosis
that you've seen over the last almost two decades
as far as things that are hopefully moving in
the right direction? Well, that's a wide open
question. One of the things that I remember early
on thinking about is the connection I made with
these first responders. Now, the chaplain, Pat,
who was kind of mentoring me, he said, it'll
take you probably two years. It's about building
trust because they don't trust anyone. And so
it takes time to build that trust. It'll take
you about two years. And in six months, I was
totally in for various reasons because of different
crisis that I showed up on and helped them with,
some of them personal. And suddenly I was in.
And I'm like. I that they trusted me and I had
never talked to a police officer, you know, other
than when I got pulled over as a teen for speeding
or rolling through a stop sign. But, you know,
they were such wonderful people and such quality
people. That was my first impression as I got
to know them and built relationships with them.
And but. One of the hard part was seeing the
impact of the career they had chosen on their
families. And when, for example, when the Lakewood
Four, do you remember that when they were killed
here in our area? There were four officers in
a coffee shop in Lakewood. Vaguely, what's so
sad is there have been so many. I can think of
the ones that were shot eating Chinese food.
I mean, they all kind of blew us together now.
So I'm sure I remember when it happened. But
I mean, there's just I mean, the execution of
police officers is just horrendous these days.
It is. Well, we had about six, those two more
and then those four that were all kind of bang,
bang, bang. So Seattle, anybody in this area
will remember the Lakewood four. Well, they were
in a coffee shop and someone came in and shot
them all. And and then there was a big manhunt.
So everybody was involved. But after the Lakewood
Shore, you know, as soon as I heard it, I was
at the police station asking the officers how
they're doing, checking in with them. And it
was interesting. They said to me, I'm OK. It's
my wife who's freaking out. And I never thought
about them in that way until that moment. And
I realized, because I asked some more questions,
I said, well, what are they worried about? They're
worried about me getting killed that way. And
they kept saying to me, officer after officer,
they want me to quit my job. And so that's what
I realized is how much the spouses carry. of
concern and worry and have talked a lot to them
about that sense, what it's like to be married
to a first responder. It's not easy. They're
gone a lot. I had one officer's wife who, he
was on SWAT, so he'd get paged out in the middle
of the night and then she'd be wondering, is
he going to be okay? Is he not going to be okay?
And then one night she got the call that he'd
been shot. You know, and and he didn't die. He
recovered. But, you know, it took her years to
recover from that phone call and that that experience.
So they suffer a great deal and no one notices.
I think a lot of times even the agencies don't
pay attention to the spouses and what they go
through. Yeah, well, I mean, this is, again,
one of my main arguments here is I had a friend
of mine who's a firefighter in this local department
and his wife, who's a nurse practitioner, and
they came on together. And, you know, my friend
is amazing, but he's indoctrinated into that
culture. So hearing his wife's perspective of
what happens just even when it's the normal shift,
but then that mandatory overtime. You're supposed
to be coming home. She's a career woman as well.
They've got two kids. You know, the impact of
that, because this is what is not being factored
in. This is, oh, well, you've got to stay another
shift. We're shorthanded. Well, there's a lot
of other people that are affected by that decision.
And again, it's the wildfires in L .A. OK, I
get it. There's an absolute disaster happening
at the moment. But you're using this as a staffing
model for a decade. That's so unfair on the families
of these first responders. It is. And they're
exhausted. And I hear the story again and again
of he comes in the door, he's worked, you know,
a 48 or, you know, been out on a call. Someone
was murdered and had to do an investigation,
worked way over time. And then he walks in and
the wife hands him the baby and says, here, I
can't do it anymore. And he's exhausted. But
she's exhausted, too. So what do you do? You
have a baby to take care of, you know, and and
I when I get I have more. I have a lot of couples,
first responder couples that come to see me.
You know, I talked about you. You've got to talk
through how you manage those moments. You know,
what do you each need? Maybe he needs a few minutes
to change his clothes, to take a shower, and
then maybe he'll take the baby, you know, and
you can have a break. But how to communicate
what you both need is so important. And then
we talk about how do you talk about what you
experienced on the job? Because that's a tough
one, too. Some don't tell their spouse anything.
And some can tell them everything. Well, it depends
if you're married to another first responder
or an ICU nurse or the emergency room nurse,
a lot of those. And they can take those stories
because they have their own to tell. But there's
others that can't take the story. And so how,
you know, and they say, well, I don't want to
traumatize them. So I don't tell them anything.
Well, I get that. And I appreciate that. But
you need to say. I had a really rough call. It
was a kid call, you know, or whatever, a little
bit of information. Otherwise, they think you're
mad at them. You know, they disappear. They isolate.
And the spouse thinks, what did I do wrong? Did
I say something? You know, they don't know. It's
not them. And so communication is so important
in the first responder couple. Absolutely. I
almost don't like the word stigma anymore because
it seems like a lot of us have got stuck on that
word rather than healing tools and post -traumatic
growth and all the things that are over that
fence that's called stigma. But in the law enforcement
profession, you hear even more fear of talking
because of having your badge and gun taken away.
Versus in the fire service, we don't have a gun.
So it's not, you know, that particular element
isn't as acute. What have you seen as far as
that issue, that barrier to courageous vulnerability
from when you first entered to where we are in
2025? Well, I actually think a lot of first responders
shut down more over time. You know, they stuff
everything. They push it down and don't want
to talk about it. And I advocate when you have
a critical incident, you need to deal with it
then because it accumulates. And the cumulative
trauma is what can wipe out officers and firefighters.
You know, I've had a medic just recently who's
had some really rough calls over the years. And
he said, I can hardly stay at work. It is so
hard just to be there. And so it's so important
to deal with each one as you go. And these older
first responders didn't get that training when
they first came in. This is new of really the
last 10 or 15 years. You know, if you you aren't
a newer officer or firefighter, you didn't learn
about mental health and why it's important. And
it was kind of looked down upon. You know, that
was the era of suck it up, buttercup. And and
I'm so that you asked about change that I've
seen. That is the one I'm so happy to see. I
often think of it like a. a large cargo ship,
container ship. They say it takes 10 miles for
them to turn out in the ocean. And that's what
I think it's like for mental health and first
responders. It's been a long 10 or plus years
to make that turn. But I think we've made the
turn and we're coming around and mental health
is valued and encouraged. and there's more mental
health like me on site at agencies and it's growing
so i that's the one thing i am so grateful for
to see happening what do you think is the the
gold standard model and again i get there's nuances
in in departments but from the conversations
that i've had It seems like the onsite mental
health counselor clinician is the best one, especially
for me. If you make even the probationary, you
know, the new recruits have X amount of sessions,
I think that will be a beautiful way of addressing
what we brought into the profession. So in normalizing
this conversation and having no barrier to entry
because, oh, I already know Phyllis. I'm going
to go talk to Phyllis about that kid call I just
had. So if you, again, we talked about this the
other day, queen for a day, what would be the
gold standard model for mental health counselors
or clinicians within a fire service or law enforcement,
excuse me? Well, what you said, I totally am
on board with. And this is the piece that is
just starting to happen is that we catch them
early on when they're at the academy. You know,
that we start to talk about mental health and
encourage good habits. Then we talk about sleep,
how to talk to your spouse or your partner, how,
you know, how to do all these things right from
the beginning, lay a good foundation. And then
as they come out of the academy and they're on
probation, you know that you're still checking
in with them, seeing how they're doing on their
mental health. I think having an MHP. People
say, well, what do you do when you're on site?
I said, well, I have the best job in the world.
I get paid for just chatting with people. I just
walk around the stations and sit down at the
coffee table or lunch table and just chat and
say, how are you doing? And I build that relationship.
I do ride -alongs and I'm just out there with
them. And it's amazing, the trust. I had been
gone for four weeks. And so last week when I
was at one department, I had been there like
six hours already and I was trying to get out
the door. And every time I started, someone showed
up and wanted to talk. And then I put, you know,
going to get my jacket and someone else showed
up. And then I finally went down to where everybody
is just to tell, you know, the sergeants I was
leaving. And then someone else caught me. And
so it took me two hours to get out the door.
And, you know, I think that. That is what's great
because once you build that trust, you know,
and that you can encourage them to talk about
things as they go, you know, they still have
hesitations or they don't, oh, they minimize
something they've been through. But I think it's
a good start, you know, to teach them how to
have good health and to have somebody to talk
to. There's always the holdouts and there always
will be. There's a couple of officers. I've been
at East Precinct for Seattle PD for three and
a half years now, and there's still some holdouts.
They'll probably never, never really come and
share anything, but I try to engage with them.
I kind of, in my mind, I target them and go,
okay, there's a challenge. I'm going to take
that challenge on. And eventually, sometimes
they'll open up, sometimes not, but at least
I try. But that's what I would love to see everywhere.
I did some classes with one agency, you know,
doing that kind of program where we taught classes
in their training. And then we had them see the
MHP or AMHP and went over certain things like
alcohol use and sleep and stress reduction and
all of that, teaching them how to do all that.
I thought it was a great. Great program. Yeah.
Well, I think especially hearing how many of
us have an ACE score of, you know, six and above
in the first responder profession. I know that's
not an absolute, but it seems like a lot of us
do. That's a huge opportunity to start dealing
with some of the stuff. I mean, if you become
a police officer, you've already told us some
of the things that you carried into the job.
So turning those, you know, struggles into strengths,
you know, allowing us to process them because
I truly believe and I don't know if I'm just.
Just all unicorns and rainbows. But I truly believe
that if you have had some stuff happen and then
you found your own toolbox to deal with it, I
think that becomes a superpower in uniform. It
really does. You're more empathetic and compassionate.
You're more resilient. But if it's left unaddressed,
that's a fractured foundation that can actually
be detrimental as you progress through. It can
because you'll be triggered on calls. And sometimes
I call it the invisible string. It goes back
to something else, but you don't know what it
is. You don't know why you're reacting the way
you are, but when you're doing your work. And
that's the beauty of having an MHP on site, even
if it's just once a week, which is what most
of ours do, is I call it triage. We just triage.
You know, if someone's struggling, you know,
we'll sit and talk to them. But if we have to
do therapy, then that's at the off.