WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.080 I'm extremely excited to announce a brand new 00:00:02.080 --> 00:00:04.459 sponsor for the Behind the Shield podcast. That 00:00:04.459 --> 00:00:07.379 is Transcend. Now, for many of you listening, 00:00:07.480 --> 00:00:10.019 you are probably working the same brutal shifts 00:00:10.019 --> 00:00:12.919 that I did for 14 years, suffering from sleep 00:00:12.919 --> 00:00:16.120 deprivation, body composition challenges, mental 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:20.539 health challenges, libido, hair loss, etc. Now 00:00:20.539 --> 00:00:22.059 when it comes to the world of hormone replacement 00:00:22.059 --> 00:00:24.760 and peptide therapy what I have seen is a shift 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:26.859 from doctors telling us that we were within normal 00:00:26.859 --> 00:00:29.460 limits which was definitely incorrect all the 00:00:29.460 --> 00:00:31.719 way to the other way now where men's clinics 00:00:31.719 --> 00:00:35.060 are popping up left right and center. So I myself 00:00:35.060 --> 00:00:37.799 wanted to find a reputable company that would 00:00:37.799 --> 00:00:40.619 do an analysis of my physiology and then offer 00:00:40.619 --> 00:00:43.399 supplementations without ramming for example 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:46.479 hormone replacement therapy down my throat. Now 00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:48.280 I came across Transcend because they have an 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:50.979 altruistic arm and they were a big reason why 00:00:50.979 --> 00:00:54.380 the 7X project I was a part of was able to proceed 00:00:54.380 --> 00:00:56.979 because of their generous donations. They also 00:00:56.979 --> 00:00:59.140 have the Transcend foundations where they're 00:00:59.140 --> 00:01:01.119 actually putting military and first responders 00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:03.880 through some of their therapies at no cost to 00:01:03.880 --> 00:01:06.620 the individual. So my own personal journey so 00:01:06.620 --> 00:01:10.230 far, filled in the online form. Went to Quest, 00:01:10.469 --> 00:01:12.890 got blood drawn, and a few days later, I'm talking 00:01:12.890 --> 00:01:14.730 to one of their wellness professionals as they 00:01:14.730 --> 00:01:17.489 guide me through my results and the supplementation 00:01:17.489 --> 00:01:20.689 that they suggest. In my case specifically, because 00:01:20.689 --> 00:01:23.049 I transitioned out the fire service five years 00:01:23.049 --> 00:01:25.930 ago and been very diligent with my health, my 00:01:25.930 --> 00:01:28.790 testosterone was actually in a good place. So 00:01:28.790 --> 00:01:30.810 I went down the peptide route and some other 00:01:30.810 --> 00:01:33.090 supplements to try and maximize my physiology, 00:01:33.230 --> 00:01:36.150 knowing full well the damage that 14 years of 00:01:36.150 --> 00:01:38.840 shift work has done. Now I also want to underline, 00:01:38.859 --> 00:01:40.579 because I think this is very important, that 00:01:40.579 --> 00:01:42.840 each of the therapies they offer, they will talk 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:45.959 about the pros and cons. So for example, a lot 00:01:45.959 --> 00:01:47.980 of first responders in shift work, our testosterone 00:01:47.980 --> 00:01:51.159 will be low. But sometimes nutrition, exercise, 00:01:51.319 --> 00:01:54.540 and sleep can offset that on its own. So this 00:01:54.540 --> 00:01:56.640 company is not going to try and push you down 00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:58.939 a path, especially if it's one that you can't 00:01:58.939 --> 00:02:01.819 come back from. So whether it's libido, brain 00:02:01.819 --> 00:02:06.180 fog, inflammation, gut health, performance, sleep, 00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:09.180 This is definitely one of the most powerful tools 00:02:09.180 --> 00:02:13.539 in the toolbox. So to learn more, go to transcendcompany 00:02:13.539 --> 00:02:17.780 .com or listen to episode 808 of the Behind the 00:02:17.780 --> 00:02:22.340 Shield podcast with founder Ernie Colling. Welcome 00:02:22.340 --> 00:02:24.020 to the Behind the Shield podcast. As always, 00:02:24.039 --> 00:02:25.819 my name is James Gearing, and this week it is 00:02:25.819 --> 00:02:28.599 my absolute honor to welcome on the show first 00:02:28.599 --> 00:02:32.860 responder therapist Phyllis Rogers. Now, Phyllis 00:02:32.860 --> 00:02:35.240 has been working with our professions for almost 00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:38.919 two decades now. So we discuss a host of topics 00:02:38.919 --> 00:02:42.439 from her journey into the psychology space, working 00:02:42.439 --> 00:02:45.719 with first responders, the chaplaincy program, 00:02:46.199 --> 00:02:50.860 peer support, the 2020 riots, and so much more. 00:02:51.180 --> 00:02:53.300 Now, before we get to this incredible conversation, 00:02:53.539 --> 00:02:55.800 as I say every week, please just take a moment, 00:02:55.939 --> 00:02:59.139 go to whichever app you listen to this on, subscribe 00:02:59.139 --> 00:03:02.629 to the show. Leave feedback and leave a rating. 00:03:03.050 --> 00:03:06.389 Every single five -star rating truly does elevate 00:03:06.389 --> 00:03:09.030 this podcast, therefore making it easier for 00:03:09.030 --> 00:03:12.650 others to find. And this is a free library of 00:03:12.650 --> 00:03:17.289 well over 1 ,000 episodes now. So all I ask in 00:03:17.289 --> 00:03:20.189 return is that you help share these incredible 00:03:20.189 --> 00:03:23.009 men and women's stories so I can get them to 00:03:23.009 --> 00:03:25.909 every single person on planet Earth who needs 00:03:25.909 --> 00:03:29.650 to hear them. So with that being said... I introduce 00:03:29.650 --> 00:03:53.240 to you Phyllis Rogers. Enjoy. Well, Phyllis, 00:03:53.240 --> 00:03:55.639 I want to start by saying thank you so much for 00:03:55.639 --> 00:03:57.740 taking the time and coming on the Behind the 00:03:57.740 --> 00:04:01.240 Shield podcast today. Oh, you're welcome. It's 00:04:01.240 --> 00:04:03.500 really an honor and a privilege, and it's been 00:04:03.500 --> 00:04:06.479 a joy to get to know you. So where on planet 00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:08.620 Earth are we finding you, your morning, my afternoon? 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:14.520 I am in Carnation, which is a little town outside 00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:17.480 of the Seattle area, about 30 minutes outside 00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:21.399 of Seattle. And it's I live on 12 and a half 00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:27.319 acres. It's lovely. How was the pandemic for 00:04:27.319 --> 00:04:30.480 you having that kind of space? And I don't know 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:32.180 if you have kind of you grow your own food or 00:04:32.180 --> 00:04:34.699 anything as well. But it seems like it was just, 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:37.939 you know, so challenging for people that were 00:04:37.939 --> 00:04:39.860 in the city that maybe lived in, you know, like 00:04:39.860 --> 00:04:42.079 a one bedroom apartment. But a lot of people 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:43.839 I know that already had some space that were 00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:46.819 in the country seem to have a better experience 00:04:46.819 --> 00:04:52.290 overall. Well, it really was wonderful, you know, 00:04:52.290 --> 00:04:56.589 to be at home. And it was the transition of seeing 00:04:56.589 --> 00:05:00.930 clients in my office to seeing clients via video 00:05:00.930 --> 00:05:04.069 on telehealth. And I hadn't done much of that 00:05:04.069 --> 00:05:07.029 before. It was just kind of emerging. And so 00:05:07.029 --> 00:05:11.170 it was kind of fun to do it from home. But I 00:05:11.170 --> 00:05:14.189 was only home for about a month. And then... 00:05:14.630 --> 00:05:17.550 the police departments and fire departments that 00:05:17.550 --> 00:05:20.430 I work with had me go home, you know, said you 00:05:20.430 --> 00:05:22.910 need to, you need to not be here. And then after 00:05:22.910 --> 00:05:25.389 a month they go, well, we need you back. And 00:05:25.389 --> 00:05:29.370 so I was really only home a month and my clients 00:05:29.370 --> 00:05:31.589 wanted to see me in person. A few of them would 00:05:31.589 --> 00:05:34.850 do video after, you know, I was going back to 00:05:34.850 --> 00:05:36.610 the office. They wanted to see me in person. 00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:39.360 which I thought was interesting. So I am out 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:41.920 there in the middle of the first responders who 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:45.000 are also out there in the middle of the pandemic. 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:47.259 So I didn't get to stay home as much as everybody 00:05:47.259 --> 00:05:52.759 else. It was interesting. I was already out of 00:05:52.759 --> 00:05:55.500 the fire service by then. And I remember hearing. 00:05:56.509 --> 00:05:58.870 The guy saying, yeah, well, if you know, if one 00:05:58.870 --> 00:06:01.910 of us is exposed and the whole crew is out and 00:06:01.910 --> 00:06:04.769 and I'm like, I'm no mathematician, but that's 00:06:04.769 --> 00:06:07.290 not going to last very long. And sure enough, 00:06:07.410 --> 00:06:09.089 you know, after a couple of weeks, people like, 00:06:09.189 --> 00:06:10.930 oh, we're losing everyone. Yeah, we're going 00:06:10.930 --> 00:06:13.310 to change those rules now. And it was funny watching 00:06:13.310 --> 00:06:15.769 these kind of, you know, elastic rules that were 00:06:15.769 --> 00:06:18.769 so hard and fast at the beginning. And then all 00:06:18.769 --> 00:06:20.269 of a sudden people realize, all right, maybe 00:06:20.269 --> 00:06:21.930 this isn't the best way of doing it. And, you 00:06:21.930 --> 00:06:24.269 know, it expanded and contracted constantly. 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:27.600 It certainly did. I felt sorry for the firefighters 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:33.040 who had to put all this stuff on, you know, when 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:35.779 they went. I mean, it took them twice as long 00:06:35.779 --> 00:06:39.139 to get to a call because they had to suit up, 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:43.040 basically. And before they could go into a house. 00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:48.000 What impact did you see? That that particular 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:51.180 portion of our modern history have on the first 00:06:51.180 --> 00:06:54.040 responders that you work with. The reason I ask, 00:06:54.060 --> 00:06:55.639 obviously, I mean, you know, I think a lot of 00:06:55.639 --> 00:06:58.079 people were affected, but some of the coping 00:06:58.079 --> 00:07:00.959 mechanisms, certainly on the fire side, I know 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:03.800 that we've used are, for example, the table, 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:05.759 you know, the dining room table in the fire station. 00:07:05.860 --> 00:07:08.480 And I'm hearing that everyone's got to have some 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:10.759 corner of the station to eat on their own. So 00:07:10.759 --> 00:07:14.430 the very nature of some of these. you know, arguably 00:07:14.430 --> 00:07:17.449 ridiculous distancing rules that were imposed, 00:07:17.689 --> 00:07:20.790 seemed to take away a lot of the healing elements 00:07:20.790 --> 00:07:23.269 for our first responder community, and I'm sure 00:07:23.269 --> 00:07:25.550 amplified struggles they were already having. 00:07:26.670 --> 00:07:30.810 I agree, but I don't know how long those guidelines 00:07:30.810 --> 00:07:36.629 really stayed in place, to be honest. You know, 00:07:36.649 --> 00:07:39.889 I think that they did at first, but when I, you 00:07:39.889 --> 00:07:42.870 know, would go to the fire station, there... 00:07:43.100 --> 00:07:45.699 all they're sitting next to each other good so 00:07:45.699 --> 00:07:48.579 and you're right that's that's how they process 00:07:48.579 --> 00:07:51.220 everything you know is around the kitchen table 00:07:51.220 --> 00:07:54.980 and so i think in the beginning for a short time 00:07:54.980 --> 00:08:00.600 um they did follow that um but i think it fell 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:04.980 away um they wouldn't say that out loud i don't 00:08:04.980 --> 00:08:08.180 think but it did fall away because they needed 00:08:08.180 --> 00:08:11.379 that and you know the pandemic started here in 00:08:11.379 --> 00:08:14.930 seattle It was the first one. So we kind of, 00:08:14.930 --> 00:08:18.930 it spread out from here. So what did you see? 00:08:18.930 --> 00:08:20.709 I mean, we'll get obviously into the whole first 00:08:20.709 --> 00:08:22.449 responder journey, but while we're on the topic, 00:08:22.509 --> 00:08:26.870 that phase specifically on the first responders 00:08:26.870 --> 00:08:29.709 that you actually, you know, take care of, what 00:08:29.709 --> 00:08:31.810 impact did, you know, all those factors have 00:08:31.810 --> 00:08:36.190 on the men and women in uniform? Well, what I 00:08:36.190 --> 00:08:40.009 remember, it's been a while. What I remember 00:08:40.009 --> 00:08:46.200 is, is. just feeling like no one was telling 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:49.720 them really what was going on. I mean, they had 00:08:49.720 --> 00:08:51.559 people who were in charge of getting all the 00:08:51.559 --> 00:08:56.919 information, you know, daily. But the frustration 00:08:56.919 --> 00:08:59.320 of not getting what they needed, everything was 00:08:59.320 --> 00:09:02.139 in short supply, you know, not being able to 00:09:02.139 --> 00:09:08.039 work on the citizens like they normally did. 00:09:08.590 --> 00:09:11.690 and really restricting their calls and you know 00:09:11.690 --> 00:09:16.409 it just was very frustrating time for them i 00:09:16.409 --> 00:09:20.370 didn't really no please they were the ones who 00:09:20.370 --> 00:09:22.490 were giving the vaccines you know that's where 00:09:22.490 --> 00:09:25.370 i went to get my vaccine shots you know was at 00:09:25.370 --> 00:09:27.350 the fire station because everybody who worked 00:09:27.350 --> 00:09:30.429 with them had to get them and the medics were 00:09:30.429 --> 00:09:35.289 the ones giving them in the bay yeah well i think 00:09:35.289 --> 00:09:39.350 this was what was so Unfair is the only word 00:09:39.350 --> 00:09:43.730 I think I can think of that matches this. That 00:09:43.730 --> 00:09:45.710 whole thing was so politicized. And you and I 00:09:45.710 --> 00:09:47.710 spoke yesterday on the phone. We're talking about 00:09:47.710 --> 00:09:49.970 the word politics put on things sometimes that 00:09:49.970 --> 00:09:51.769 just need to be talked about. It's not politics, 00:09:51.809 --> 00:09:55.909 it's health. But you had the same first responders 00:09:55.909 --> 00:09:59.190 that are out there with sometimes almost no PPE 00:09:59.190 --> 00:10:01.570 because of the shortage. They weren't vaccinated. 00:10:01.690 --> 00:10:04.990 There was no protection whatsoever. And then 00:10:04.990 --> 00:10:07.450 there was this mandate put on. And again, I think 00:10:07.450 --> 00:10:09.370 it's this organizational betrayal. Now they were 00:10:09.370 --> 00:10:11.549 being called murderers if they didn't take the 00:10:11.549 --> 00:10:14.129 vaccine. Now I took the vaccine to go travel 00:10:14.129 --> 00:10:15.509 because I wanted to see my grandmother who was 00:10:15.509 --> 00:10:19.129 104 at the time. So I was like, okay, I will 00:10:19.129 --> 00:10:22.429 take one for the team because I want to lessen, 00:10:22.429 --> 00:10:26.250 minimize the chance of me taking anything. But 00:10:26.250 --> 00:10:27.909 I also didn't think that the vaccine was going 00:10:27.909 --> 00:10:30.029 to stop the spread because I didn't match with 00:10:30.029 --> 00:10:31.509 the science that I've been taught since I was 00:10:31.509 --> 00:10:35.620 a little boy. But to see... That, you know, complete 00:10:35.620 --> 00:10:38.379 180 of these people that no one had an issue 00:10:38.379 --> 00:10:40.940 with at all being out there unprotected. And 00:10:40.940 --> 00:10:42.980 now they're being called murderers. And if they 00:10:42.980 --> 00:10:45.000 don't take the vaccines, they should be fired. 00:10:45.580 --> 00:10:48.080 Again, mentally, I felt that must have been extremely 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:51.720 damaging to a lot of them. It really was. And 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:56.279 one of the most painful things for me is watching 00:10:56.279 --> 00:11:00.639 a group of firefighters taking a stance. And 00:11:00.639 --> 00:11:03.120 they banded together. There was a group of about 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:06.620 10, you know, and they met regularly. They all 00:11:06.620 --> 00:11:09.679 decided they weren't taking the vaccine. And 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:12.320 they, even though they, you know, said that they 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:16.200 were going to fire them if they didn't. And these 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:20.399 were really good firefighters. They were some 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:22.799 of the favorite people I enjoyed going to visit. 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:25.399 And it went all the way up to one of the BCs. 00:11:25.779 --> 00:11:32.090 And they left. And it was so sad to see that 00:11:32.090 --> 00:11:38.409 happen. And it was so short -sighted by the cities 00:11:38.409 --> 00:11:40.850 who thought they were doing the right thing, 00:11:40.929 --> 00:11:46.629 but they lost really good people. Yeah. And we're 00:11:46.629 --> 00:11:48.850 in a crisis now. And it's funny, LA is still 00:11:48.850 --> 00:11:51.710 terminating people. I had a guy that was terminated. 00:11:51.970 --> 00:11:55.429 I think it was the very beginning of 2024. And 00:11:55.429 --> 00:11:57.769 then I've been told that even now by a lawyer 00:11:57.769 --> 00:12:01.070 who's still defending, you know, L .A. first 00:12:01.070 --> 00:12:02.850 responders, he's like, no, they're still chasing 00:12:02.850 --> 00:12:06.129 people. And we know the efficacy was no more 00:12:06.129 --> 00:12:08.409 than the flip of a coin. And I'm not anti -vax. 00:12:08.409 --> 00:12:10.690 I've got a friend who was a doctor and he was 00:12:10.690 --> 00:12:12.629 like, the vaccinated people seem to survive. 00:12:13.230 --> 00:12:15.429 You know, if you were already sick and you were 00:12:15.429 --> 00:12:17.940 vaccinated, it seemed to give you a better. So 00:12:17.940 --> 00:12:20.539 it's maybe a symptom reducer. But as far as, 00:12:20.539 --> 00:12:22.980 you know, this is if you don't take this, you 00:12:22.980 --> 00:12:25.440 should be terminated. There wasn't the efficacy 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:28.019 to be behind that. If it absolutely stopped the 00:12:28.019 --> 00:12:30.679 virus in the tracks in your body, that's a whole 00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:32.399 different conversation. But that wasn't what 00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:34.559 was happening. And even by the time they were 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:36.620 terminating people, we knew that it wasn't 100 00:12:36.620 --> 00:12:41.029 percent effective. So it was just such a. spit 00:12:41.029 --> 00:12:42.909 in the face for all these veteran first responders 00:12:42.909 --> 00:12:45.690 who had done nothing but serve for so many years. 00:12:45.850 --> 00:12:48.490 And then they get either pushed out or terminated. 00:12:49.370 --> 00:12:52.769 Yeah, I agree. The other interesting thing I 00:12:52.769 --> 00:12:56.649 observed was the firefighters and the police 00:12:56.649 --> 00:13:01.250 officers were, by the citizens, heralded as the 00:13:01.250 --> 00:13:04.330 heroes, because they're out there doing their 00:13:04.330 --> 00:13:08.399 job in the midst of this. horrible pandemic when 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:11.019 everybody else was stuck in the house. And then 00:13:11.019 --> 00:13:13.820 all of a sudden George Floyd happened. And it 00:13:13.820 --> 00:13:16.299 was like this whole flip, not so much for the 00:13:16.299 --> 00:13:19.259 firefighters, but for the police officers. And 00:13:19.259 --> 00:13:22.399 it was, you know, almost shocking. It happened 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:25.840 so fast. Well, let's jump ahead. We haven't even 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:27.580 got to your journey yet, but let's, let's open 00:13:27.580 --> 00:13:29.240 that up because, because again, we were talking 00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:32.700 about this the other day. You know, I had, I've 00:13:32.700 --> 00:13:34.860 had numerous people on and obviously this topic 00:13:34.860 --> 00:13:39.100 has come up. You know, as a paramedic looking 00:13:39.100 --> 00:13:41.899 at that video, you know, knowing 14 years of 00:13:41.899 --> 00:13:44.519 calls that I've been on, you know, clearly there 00:13:44.519 --> 00:13:46.879 was some things that led to that death. And that's 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:48.980 unacceptable. But even if you listen to the law 00:13:48.980 --> 00:13:52.200 enforcement, you know, the subject matter experts, 00:13:52.259 --> 00:13:56.279 when it comes to these cases, they that those 00:13:56.279 --> 00:14:00.139 officers were, you know, were prosecuted the 00:14:00.139 --> 00:14:02.120 way they should have been prosecuted. So it wasn't 00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:04.600 like it was swept under the rug. They had the 00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:06.320 book thrown at them and each one of them had 00:14:06.320 --> 00:14:08.679 the charge that they deserved. So this is what 00:14:08.679 --> 00:14:11.899 was so sad. So while we're on this topic, we 00:14:11.899 --> 00:14:14.720 mentioned earlier when we spoke about riots. 00:14:16.169 --> 00:14:18.009 you know paint the picture what was the impact 00:14:18.009 --> 00:14:20.710 on on the first responders that you were taking 00:14:20.710 --> 00:14:23.149 care of as far as you know like you said one 00:14:23.149 --> 00:14:26.250 minute they're heroes in the nhs and in the uk 00:14:26.250 --> 00:14:27.929 and at five o 'clock everyone was coming out 00:14:27.929 --> 00:14:29.769 and clapping which i don't think creates more 00:14:29.769 --> 00:14:33.190 beds nurses or ppe but regardless at least you 00:14:33.190 --> 00:14:36.309 had support um and then like you said all of 00:14:36.309 --> 00:14:38.710 a sudden now law enforcement is demonized and 00:14:38.710 --> 00:14:47.429 defunded it it was um It was fascinating in many 00:14:47.429 --> 00:14:49.950 regards to watch and heartbreaking for me at 00:14:49.950 --> 00:14:53.009 the same time. I was not working with Seattle 00:14:53.009 --> 00:14:58.029 PD at that time. I was contracted with them about 00:14:58.029 --> 00:15:02.110 a year later. But I was with King County Sheriff, 00:15:02.529 --> 00:15:07.090 Redmond PD, and a couple of other agencies in 00:15:07.090 --> 00:15:10.450 the surrounding area that were going in to help 00:15:10.450 --> 00:15:12.850 them. And, you know, I had someone who was the 00:15:12.850 --> 00:15:16.039 National Guard who was. Deployed there. And and 00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:19.320 so I, you know, I'm there as they're getting 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:23.600 to go into the riots and and experiencing the 00:15:23.600 --> 00:15:27.860 riots as they did. So in the beginning, I'm watching 00:15:27.860 --> 00:15:30.960 it on TV. I'm hearing these stories from those 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:34.100 who've just gone in for a few days at a time. 00:15:35.379 --> 00:15:40.440 And I kept thinking. By the intensity of what 00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:43.909 was happening, that one of our officers. or more 00:15:43.909 --> 00:15:46.230 were going to be killed. We were going to have 00:15:46.230 --> 00:15:48.889 some line of duty deaths. I'm still shocked to 00:15:48.889 --> 00:15:50.470 this day when I think about it that it didn't 00:15:50.470 --> 00:15:53.750 happen because they were so intense. And as Seattle 00:15:53.750 --> 00:15:57.909 officers began to come see me at my office as 00:15:57.909 --> 00:16:01.570 clients, then I began to hear their stories and 00:16:01.570 --> 00:16:06.269 their horrific stories. They were put on what's 00:16:06.269 --> 00:16:08.850 called a blue and gold schedule, which is 12 00:16:08.850 --> 00:16:13.830 on and 12 off and with no days off. And then 00:16:13.830 --> 00:16:15.970 occasionally they go, OK, your turn. You can 00:16:15.970 --> 00:16:19.470 have a day off. These guys and gals were exhausted. 00:16:19.649 --> 00:16:22.750 You know, by the time they often work more than 00:16:22.750 --> 00:16:26.929 12. And so by the time they they got off and 00:16:26.929 --> 00:16:29.490 drove home, which they none of them live in Seattle, 00:16:29.730 --> 00:16:32.409 they usually live about 45 minutes to an hour 00:16:32.409 --> 00:16:35.070 away. They get home. They hug their wife and 00:16:35.070 --> 00:16:38.509 their kids. They collapse in bed. Maybe they 00:16:38.509 --> 00:16:41.009 got a shower and something to eat and they get 00:16:41.009 --> 00:16:44.159 up and. grab something to eat and say goodbye. 00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:49.440 And families were abandoned by the officers during 00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:53.159 that time because the demand was so great. But 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:57.940 I have been doing some groups for Seattle officers. 00:16:58.120 --> 00:17:01.580 We call it riot restoration because I heard so 00:17:01.580 --> 00:17:05.380 much about the trauma that they had been through 00:17:05.380 --> 00:17:08.150 and they had not dealt with it. And it had been 00:17:08.150 --> 00:17:10.349 last year, it had been four years. And I've been 00:17:10.349 --> 00:17:13.609 hearing this for three, four years now. And they're 00:17:13.609 --> 00:17:18.509 still angry. They're still hurt. They had let 00:17:18.509 --> 00:17:21.309 go of their anger at the citizens who they would 00:17:21.309 --> 00:17:24.970 say in the beginning, they betrayed us. We would 00:17:24.970 --> 00:17:28.490 lay down our life for you, but you betrayed us. 00:17:29.210 --> 00:17:32.410 Because citizens would scream in their face, 00:17:32.470 --> 00:17:35.029 horrible, horrible things. The things that they've 00:17:35.029 --> 00:17:37.460 told me, you know, I'm going to. I'm going to 00:17:37.460 --> 00:17:39.880 murder your wife. I'm going to rape your daughter. 00:17:40.019 --> 00:17:43.319 I'm going to just horrible things in their face. 00:17:43.380 --> 00:17:45.039 And they get right in their face and the officers 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:46.640 could do nothing. They were told they couldn't 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:49.880 do anything. The city took away all of their 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:53.420 tools. Now, the officers in Seattle are trained 00:17:53.420 --> 00:17:55.680 to handle riots. They train all the time for 00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:58.079 riots. So they know what to do. They knew how 00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:01.359 to handle it. And they took away all their tools. 00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:06.180 To do it. And and then on top of that, from what 00:18:06.180 --> 00:18:10.039 officers have told me is that then a lot of the 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:13.119 command staff didn't show up. No one would give 00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:14.960 them directions. Sometimes the sergeant wouldn't 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:17.839 show up or a lieutenant and they had no direction. 00:18:17.880 --> 00:18:20.299 So they would self appoint who was going to be 00:18:20.299 --> 00:18:25.619 in charge and then go out. And I'm at I work 00:18:25.619 --> 00:18:28.259 once a week at East Precinct, which is the center 00:18:28.259 --> 00:18:33.400 of the riots. And and. You know, the stories 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:36.839 of when they sealed the main door and then they 00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:41.259 started a fire trying to burn them out. And it 00:18:41.259 --> 00:18:44.980 was just the stories go on and on. And people 00:18:44.980 --> 00:18:47.900 were getting officers were getting injured. They 00:18:47.900 --> 00:18:50.700 were lighting fireworks. They were throwing frozen 00:18:50.700 --> 00:18:53.200 water bottles. They were throwing rocks at them. 00:18:53.259 --> 00:18:55.759 And they're standing trying to hold the line. 00:18:55.900 --> 00:18:59.099 And then one of their buddies next to him would 00:18:59.099 --> 00:19:01.680 go down. But they wouldn't know why or what happened. 00:19:01.740 --> 00:19:03.440 And the National Guard who's standing behind 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:06.019 him would pull them out and take them to the 00:19:06.019 --> 00:19:08.740 hospital or whatever they needed. And then they'd 00:19:08.740 --> 00:19:11.259 have to close the line. But no one, they wouldn't 00:19:11.259 --> 00:19:14.700 know for sometimes 8, 12 hours if their friend 00:19:14.700 --> 00:19:19.920 was okay. And it was just so difficult on so 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:22.880 many levels. And the trauma, they tell the stories 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:26.160 and they laugh and they joke. But they haven't 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:29.369 gotten down. to really the emotional impact and 00:19:29.369 --> 00:19:32.329 the trauma that they went through so i started 00:19:32.329 --> 00:19:34.910 this group it took me two years to get the okay 00:19:34.910 --> 00:19:39.450 but i finally started it and it it's been amazing 00:19:39.450 --> 00:19:42.890 because this is the first time they've unpacked 00:19:42.890 --> 00:19:47.650 it and i remember one of the first sessions that 00:19:47.650 --> 00:19:51.769 we had one officer was over on my right telling 00:19:51.769 --> 00:19:54.009 his story because i asked them to tell the story 00:19:54.750 --> 00:19:56.930 Not the story they've told over and over again 00:19:56.930 --> 00:19:59.630 to their friends and their fellow officers, but 00:19:59.630 --> 00:20:03.769 the story of what they experienced. And so this 00:20:03.769 --> 00:20:07.069 officer is telling that story of what he went 00:20:07.069 --> 00:20:10.089 through, what he experienced. And to my left, 00:20:10.109 --> 00:20:11.890 all of a sudden I hear something. I look over 00:20:11.890 --> 00:20:16.930 and there's a sergeant just sobbing. And I realized 00:20:16.930 --> 00:20:19.829 immediately that he had never unpacked anything. 00:20:20.369 --> 00:20:24.569 And that lid was starting to come off. And so 00:20:24.569 --> 00:20:29.869 it's been really wonderful to work with. We only 00:20:29.869 --> 00:20:32.309 do 10 at a time. So it's a small group and it's 00:20:32.309 --> 00:20:36.009 a slow process for the size of agency it is. 00:20:36.089 --> 00:20:40.150 But it's a voluntary thing that they can come. 00:20:40.430 --> 00:20:43.789 They get to do it on duty. And those that have 00:20:43.789 --> 00:20:47.250 come have said that it has really made a difference. 00:20:47.309 --> 00:20:50.549 It's only six weeks. It's not that long for two 00:20:50.549 --> 00:20:53.910 hours. And I tell them, this is just the... This 00:20:53.910 --> 00:20:58.029 is just the start point. You know, this isn't 00:20:58.029 --> 00:21:01.829 the magic wand that'll heal it all. All of you 00:21:01.829 --> 00:21:04.869 will have to do more work, but at least it starts 00:21:04.869 --> 00:21:08.170 them on that journey. And one really cool thing 00:21:08.170 --> 00:21:10.930 just happened last week is one of the wives, 00:21:11.089 --> 00:21:15.809 who's also an officer, came to me and I'd never 00:21:15.809 --> 00:21:19.289 met her before. And she said, I just had to find 00:21:19.289 --> 00:21:22.140 you to tell you. What a difference your group 00:21:22.140 --> 00:21:25.960 has made in my husband. He said he's not as angry 00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:30.059 and it has just changed him and healed. You know, 00:21:30.059 --> 00:21:33.079 he's had a lot of healing. And I just had to 00:21:33.079 --> 00:21:37.240 find you to say thank you, which was amazing. 00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:42.319 One of the elephants that I see in the first 00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:44.519 responder mental health room is organizational 00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:48.359 betrayal or organizational stress. Talk to me 00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:50.619 about the impact. And obviously, that's one example. 00:21:50.700 --> 00:21:54.559 We were talking the other day, the Capitol Police 00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:57.700 officers after the insurrection, I think they 00:21:57.700 --> 00:22:01.079 were completely, you know, the nation turned 00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:03.099 their back on them. And I think it's disgusting. 00:22:03.380 --> 00:22:05.740 I mean, my personal opinion is we shouldn't be 00:22:05.740 --> 00:22:08.440 forgiving anyone that goes into a federal building. 00:22:08.539 --> 00:22:10.900 I mean, if you run through the TSA. You're going 00:22:10.900 --> 00:22:12.940 to get taken down or shot. That's how it works. 00:22:13.059 --> 00:22:14.859 You know, you can't just run into a building, 00:22:14.900 --> 00:22:17.200 but you dress yourself as a buffalo and all of 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:18.660 a sudden you're forgiven. I don't understand 00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:21.720 that at all. There's a lot of frustration with 00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:23.259 a lot of governments doesn't, you know, means 00:22:23.259 --> 00:22:26.180 that we have to do it a certain way. But, you 00:22:26.180 --> 00:22:27.839 know, again, I don't think the Capitol Police 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:30.700 had the support, not from their department, but 00:22:30.700 --> 00:22:32.940 from their nation, from the law enforcement community, 00:22:33.059 --> 00:22:35.599 from the people that should have stood up and 00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:38.930 said, what about them? They, you know. Not that 00:22:38.930 --> 00:22:40.789 they are playing a victim, but they're the victims. 00:22:40.930 --> 00:22:42.130 They're the ones that thought they were going 00:22:42.130 --> 00:22:43.910 to die. They're the ones scrambling to protect 00:22:43.910 --> 00:22:46.829 all these people within this building. You know, 00:22:46.849 --> 00:22:48.329 no one knew what was actually going to happen 00:22:48.329 --> 00:22:50.650 when these people went in. And so I see a huge 00:22:50.650 --> 00:22:53.789 organizational betrayal there. What is the impact 00:22:53.789 --> 00:22:56.609 of organizational betrayal through your eyes 00:22:56.609 --> 00:23:01.509 on these first responders? It's huge. It's been 00:23:01.509 --> 00:23:04.430 four and a half years since the riots and the 00:23:04.430 --> 00:23:08.740 organization. I call it admin betrayal, the admin 00:23:08.740 --> 00:23:11.059 or it's, you know, the organizational betrayal 00:23:11.059 --> 00:23:15.599 they they experienced during the riots of people, 00:23:15.859 --> 00:23:18.700 command staff being afraid to make decisions. 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:22.460 You know, it was so tenuous and and they feel 00:23:22.460 --> 00:23:27.819 so betrayed that they're still angry. And, you 00:23:27.819 --> 00:23:31.299 know, I've asked them, what do you need to heal 00:23:31.299 --> 00:23:37.210 that? anger and that resentfulness towards command 00:23:37.210 --> 00:23:41.289 staff. And one thing they've said is just to 00:23:41.289 --> 00:23:45.230 own what you did. And they go, but that'll never 00:23:45.230 --> 00:23:48.529 happen. They'll never own it. And there's a lot 00:23:48.529 --> 00:23:51.650 of truth there. One of the amazing things is 00:23:51.650 --> 00:23:55.509 we have a temporary chief at Seattle. They've 00:23:55.509 --> 00:24:00.420 hired the permanent chief. she's leaving at the 00:24:00.420 --> 00:24:03.980 end of the month, but she sat down, we sat down 00:24:03.980 --> 00:24:05.660 together and I told her about the group, which 00:24:05.660 --> 00:24:07.500 she didn't even know about, which was interesting. 00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:12.539 And, and, um, you know, she was the first person 00:24:12.539 --> 00:24:17.339 that, that actually said, you know, I've been 00:24:17.339 --> 00:24:19.319 trying to figure out how to heal this department. 00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:23.240 And this is the missing link you. are bringing 00:24:23.240 --> 00:24:26.039 me the missing link of how to help them heal, 00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:28.720 what they really are experiencing. Because if 00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:32.839 you talk to command, they don't get it. And I 00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:35.960 think that part of the betrayal, I told her that 00:24:35.960 --> 00:24:40.900 every reaction to anything command does goes 00:24:40.900 --> 00:24:44.940 through that filter from the riots. It's still 00:24:44.940 --> 00:24:47.599 there. And unless you heal that, it's going to 00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:50.380 continue to be that way until all of these officers 00:24:50.380 --> 00:24:55.440 are gone. And she was the first person who said, 00:24:55.519 --> 00:24:57.619 I want to sit down with some of those people 00:24:57.619 --> 00:25:00.680 and hear what they have to say. And I asked, 00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:03.599 I had two groups at that time, and I sent a text 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:05.980 to them all and said, who would like to sit down, 00:25:05.980 --> 00:25:09.900 you know, with Chief Rohr? And everybody said, 00:25:09.980 --> 00:25:13.519 absolutely. I'm in, I'm in, I'm in. And because 00:25:13.519 --> 00:25:16.140 they want to be heard. And so many decisions 00:25:16.140 --> 00:25:20.849 come down. that do not recognize the impact it 00:25:20.849 --> 00:25:24.309 will have on the line. And if they just cared 00:25:24.309 --> 00:25:27.789 about the impact, not just how it makes them 00:25:27.789 --> 00:25:30.210 look or, you know, it might make the agency look 00:25:30.210 --> 00:25:34.509 better, but thinking about the officers, how 00:25:34.509 --> 00:25:36.589 is this going to impact the officers? How will 00:25:36.589 --> 00:25:39.230 they feel? I mean, it'd be novel for them to 00:25:39.230 --> 00:25:41.789 actually go and talk to the officers and say, 00:25:41.890 --> 00:25:44.269 I'm thinking about doing this. What's your thought? 00:25:44.450 --> 00:25:47.240 How do you think that'll impact you? That would 00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:51.900 be a novel idea. But I think that they often 00:25:51.900 --> 00:25:57.720 don't ask. They don't consider the feelings. 00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:00.940 And I think that, you know, anybody who feels, 00:26:01.059 --> 00:26:03.680 I always tell anytime I have command staff's 00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:07.940 ear, I say, it's not that hard. Just if you help 00:26:07.940 --> 00:26:10.779 people feel valued and appreciated and that you 00:26:10.779 --> 00:26:13.279 have their back, they'll be loyal to the court. 00:26:13.460 --> 00:26:16.549 You won't have to pay them as much. You know, 00:26:16.569 --> 00:26:19.970 they'll work for less because they know you have 00:26:19.970 --> 00:26:22.230 their back and that you care about them and you 00:26:22.230 --> 00:26:27.450 appreciate them. This is what I'm seeing is rampant 00:26:27.450 --> 00:26:30.089 in the fire side as well. And I talk about this 00:26:30.089 --> 00:26:32.950 all the time, but the most of the fire service, 00:26:32.990 --> 00:26:35.490 the firefighters work 56 hours a week, the career 00:26:35.490 --> 00:26:40.119 firefighters. And, you know. By that devolving 00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:42.259 working environment and then the recruitment 00:26:42.259 --> 00:26:45.420 crisis creating more and more overtime, and now 00:26:45.420 --> 00:26:48.579 these people are working 80 hours a week, the 00:26:48.579 --> 00:26:51.359 solution is to obviously address that, make a 00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:53.480 healthy work week. And if you compare police 00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:56.460 and fire, police work about 40 hours. So it's 00:26:56.460 --> 00:26:59.640 insanity. But there's such a pushback, especially 00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:02.400 from the, and I'm using air quotes, top, because 00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:06.579 I think that's being generous. And we've got 00:27:06.579 --> 00:27:09.079 to take a step back and go, So let me get this 00:27:09.079 --> 00:27:12.099 straight. The men and women who work 40 hours 00:27:12.099 --> 00:27:14.740 a week, who go home at five every night and sleep 00:27:14.740 --> 00:27:17.299 in their own bed, are telling the firefighters 00:27:17.299 --> 00:27:20.000 on the line that they can't work less than 56 00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:23.319 and they can't go back to their family. See, 00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:25.940 this is exactly it. I mean, we have to take a, 00:27:25.940 --> 00:27:29.180 you know, really kind of reframe what our position 00:27:29.180 --> 00:27:31.400 is. And we are supposed to be servants, public 00:27:31.400 --> 00:27:34.200 servants. Well, if you're at a higher rank, the 00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:37.569 people you're serving. Is your your men and women 00:27:37.569 --> 00:27:39.609 in uniform, the men in uniform are actually serving 00:27:39.609 --> 00:27:42.069 the public, but you're serving your people. And 00:27:42.069 --> 00:27:44.269 I'm seeing such a disconnect. And we've got to 00:27:44.269 --> 00:27:47.789 refine that community, that tribal element of 00:27:47.789 --> 00:27:50.390 police, fire, EMS, dispatch, corrections, all 00:27:50.390 --> 00:27:54.589 the uniform professions. Yeah. Well, I if I ever 00:27:54.589 --> 00:27:57.829 get a chance to talk to a new sergeant or in 00:27:57.829 --> 00:28:01.190 fire, it'd be a lieutenant that I say you are 00:28:01.190 --> 00:28:04.329 the most important person in the entire agency. 00:28:05.150 --> 00:28:10.289 And I said, because you have the ear of the line 00:28:10.289 --> 00:28:14.109 and you are the one who will know what's going 00:28:14.109 --> 00:28:16.690 on at home, how they're doing at work, what they're 00:28:16.690 --> 00:28:19.230 struggling with. You know, are they doing well? 00:28:19.349 --> 00:28:22.190 Are they not? And you're going to know everything 00:28:22.190 --> 00:28:24.829 about them. And you are the one who can make 00:28:24.829 --> 00:28:28.430 them feel valued and cared for and come alongside 00:28:28.430 --> 00:28:31.390 when they, you know, mess up, which everybody 00:28:31.390 --> 00:28:33.789 does from time to time instead of, you know, 00:28:33.789 --> 00:28:36.880 just. um criticizes and disciplining in which 00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:40.000 some sergeants and lieutenants you know come 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:42.579 down really hard but if you come alongside and 00:28:42.579 --> 00:28:45.259 say hey we need to work on this let me let me 00:28:45.259 --> 00:28:48.400 help you or this other you know officer or firefighter 00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:51.140 can can work with you and you really have their 00:28:51.140 --> 00:28:55.950 back in that way I try to encourage them to see 00:28:55.950 --> 00:28:58.849 that because there are really good sergeants 00:28:58.849 --> 00:29:03.289 and lieutenants in both areas. And there's some 00:29:03.289 --> 00:29:06.930 who just don't get it. And they make their squads 00:29:06.930 --> 00:29:14.000 or teams feel disconnected. I was listening to 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:17.640 Joe Rogan a while ago, and he had a man on said 00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:20.500 guru, who's this kind of, you know, Indian guru 00:29:20.500 --> 00:29:23.400 gentleman. But he made a comment because Joe 00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:27.059 was talking about the kind of evil pharmaceutical 00:29:27.059 --> 00:29:29.539 companies and all that. And he was talking about 00:29:29.539 --> 00:29:32.579 struggling. And the guy said, yeah, they're struggling, 00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:36.279 too. And I'd never thought about that. If you 00:29:36.279 --> 00:29:40.799 are the head of William Morris and you make cigarettes, 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:44.599 or you're a head of Purdue Pharma and you create 00:29:44.599 --> 00:29:47.859 OxyContin, and you can sleep in your bed soundly 00:29:47.859 --> 00:29:49.779 at night knowing that hundreds of thousands of 00:29:49.779 --> 00:29:52.279 Americans are dying from your product, I would 00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:54.299 argue there's a mental health issue. You're a 00:29:54.299 --> 00:29:57.099 borderline sociopath. When I look at the first 00:29:57.099 --> 00:29:59.059 responder professions, like locally, the county 00:29:59.059 --> 00:30:02.380 that protects me, who've had four suicides in 00:30:02.380 --> 00:30:05.609 four years. and still refuse to do anything to 00:30:05.609 --> 00:30:08.190 change the work week and some other areas, I 00:30:08.190 --> 00:30:10.630 would argue that one of the issues is we're not 00:30:10.630 --> 00:30:13.210 considering that maybe even the people or the 00:30:13.210 --> 00:30:16.970 bugles have to go and do the work and they don't 00:30:16.970 --> 00:30:19.170 have the mental capacity to have that empathy 00:30:19.170 --> 00:30:21.730 because they've got their own challenges in their 00:30:21.730 --> 00:30:24.210 head as well. That's my opinion. What is your 00:30:24.210 --> 00:30:34.039 perception of that? Well, I'm sorry, I asked 00:30:34.039 --> 00:30:36.779 the question again. All of a sudden my mind was 00:30:36.779 --> 00:30:39.240 going a different direction. No, no, no problem. 00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:42.059 So, so my thing is, you know, rather than, you 00:30:42.059 --> 00:30:44.380 know, they're the bad guys because they are, 00:30:44.400 --> 00:30:46.579 their actions are absolutely the bad guys. If 00:30:46.579 --> 00:30:49.319 you, again, like look at the, the Sackler family 00:30:49.319 --> 00:30:51.519 and what happened with, with OxyContin, it was 00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:55.240 disgusting. But when you frame it as those people 00:30:55.240 --> 00:30:58.539 have mental health challenges. Then to me, it's 00:30:58.539 --> 00:31:00.440 like, well, this chief that doesn't seem to care 00:31:00.440 --> 00:31:03.380 about all their people dying, if they got some 00:31:03.380 --> 00:31:05.460 help, would they refine their empathy and start 00:31:05.460 --> 00:31:08.779 fighting for their people? So it's not a judgmental 00:31:08.779 --> 00:31:11.160 issue. But, you know, I think that some of these 00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:12.460 people are in these positions that have been 00:31:12.460 --> 00:31:14.980 carrying their own baggage. And if left unaddressed, 00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:18.140 they can bury it down, go home at five and not 00:31:18.140 --> 00:31:21.960 think about anyone else. And that's how the line 00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:24.680 often feels that that whether or not that's true, 00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:31.019 that's how they feel. about them. I know that 00:31:31.019 --> 00:31:35.920 command staff or those who are leading organizations, 00:31:36.299 --> 00:31:40.480 I know it's not easy, but sometimes my perception 00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:44.940 and observation is they care more about their 00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:49.200 image and the money they make and the politics. 00:31:50.349 --> 00:31:53.529 than they do about people and and that's where 00:31:53.529 --> 00:31:57.750 i would love to see as they promote people um 00:31:57.750 --> 00:32:01.890 not you know they it's i don't know how you know 00:32:01.890 --> 00:32:03.809 people listening to the broadcast probably know 00:32:03.809 --> 00:32:06.609 but there's a lot it's a long journey to test 00:32:06.609 --> 00:32:09.529 to go up you know you jump through a lot of hoops 00:32:09.529 --> 00:32:13.269 and you have to study and you know books and 00:32:13.269 --> 00:32:17.170 tests and all that but so it's the people who 00:32:17.170 --> 00:32:20.039 take tests well and study well and are smart 00:32:20.039 --> 00:32:23.319 that often get promoted, but they don't always 00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:26.259 have emotional intelligence. And that's what 00:32:26.259 --> 00:32:30.180 bothers me. I would like to see them promote 00:32:30.180 --> 00:32:34.720 people and have some type of evaluation of what 00:32:34.720 --> 00:32:37.519 is their emotional intelligence. How do they 00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:40.460 connect with people? Do they understand what 00:32:40.460 --> 00:32:43.220 people are going through? Do they think of the 00:32:43.220 --> 00:32:46.559 others below them? That's what I would like to 00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:50.390 see happen. And the other thing that you mentioned 00:32:50.390 --> 00:32:56.450 is about the hours. You know, sleep is, I had 00:32:56.450 --> 00:32:59.029 somebody come in my office. I've been doing this 00:32:59.029 --> 00:33:02.529 for 18 years, working with first responders as 00:33:02.529 --> 00:33:06.690 an MHP. And someone came into my office a couple 00:33:06.690 --> 00:33:09.230 of weeks ago and I always ask about sleep and 00:33:09.230 --> 00:33:11.190 they go, oh, you know, I sleep really well. And 00:33:11.190 --> 00:33:15.529 I go, are you lying to me? Because I never have 00:33:15.529 --> 00:33:18.829 anyone say that. Because they just don't sleep. 00:33:19.950 --> 00:33:23.710 Firefighters and police officers, the same. And 00:33:23.710 --> 00:33:28.109 sleep is the foundation of good mental health, 00:33:28.230 --> 00:33:31.309 emotional health, physical health. It's the foundation 00:33:31.309 --> 00:33:36.910 of everything. And we should pay more attention. 00:33:37.269 --> 00:33:40.690 I've never understood the fire schedule. I think 00:33:40.690 --> 00:33:45.430 it's crazy. I always have. We have one agency 00:33:45.430 --> 00:33:51.769 in our area. I see someone from there and he 00:33:51.769 --> 00:33:56.670 was explaining that they're going to 24 hours 00:33:56.670 --> 00:33:59.769 on and three days off, which is a definite improvement 00:33:59.769 --> 00:34:04.170 because they do all 48s up here. And I was happy 00:34:04.170 --> 00:34:06.490 to hear that, that they're actually paying attention 00:34:06.490 --> 00:34:11.090 to sleep, but it's costing them money and they're 00:34:11.090 --> 00:34:14.530 paying it. They have to hire more people because 00:34:14.530 --> 00:34:18.849 they're going to more crews. I love it. I think 00:34:18.849 --> 00:34:22.429 that they're putting value on people over, you 00:34:22.429 --> 00:34:25.889 know, the money, the politics or whatever causes 00:34:25.889 --> 00:34:29.309 them to not want to spend the money to do a different 00:34:29.309 --> 00:34:32.449 schedule. I wonder if it's the department. I 00:34:32.449 --> 00:34:34.030 was just talking to someone and we chatted a 00:34:34.030 --> 00:34:36.250 while ago and he actually reached out to me a 00:34:36.250 --> 00:34:37.969 couple of days ago and said, hey, James, I just 00:34:37.969 --> 00:34:39.670 want to let you know I'm five shifts into the 00:34:39.670 --> 00:34:43.030 24 -72. And so we talked about this because I've 00:34:43.030 --> 00:34:45.010 been championing this for eight years now. And 00:34:45.010 --> 00:34:47.070 it's not my idea. There's departments that have 00:34:47.070 --> 00:34:49.849 already done it. It's just to me, when you start 00:34:49.849 --> 00:34:51.389 listening to all these experts, you're like, 00:34:51.449 --> 00:34:53.650 well, sleep is important. What's the answer? 00:34:53.789 --> 00:34:56.989 Well, more rest between shifts. OK, 42 hour work 00:34:56.989 --> 00:34:58.329 week. Well, that's what everyone else works. 00:34:58.469 --> 00:35:01.489 It's not some crazy, hey, we just want to work 00:35:01.489 --> 00:35:04.210 five hours a week. Can we work the same as everyone 00:35:04.210 --> 00:35:06.690 else? Is that OK? We are saving lives and getting 00:35:06.690 --> 00:35:09.880 up in the middle of the night. But yeah, but 00:35:09.880 --> 00:35:14.400 that's what's so interesting is this is the solution. 00:35:14.519 --> 00:35:17.059 And the money, ironically, if you look at Seattle, 00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:19.579 for example, if you just ask them, how much do 00:35:19.579 --> 00:35:22.679 you spend on overtime? It will be millions and 00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:25.039 millions and millions of dollars. And that's 00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:27.139 because they're filling these holes in this recruitment 00:35:27.139 --> 00:35:29.699 crisis. What departments here, because we had 00:35:29.699 --> 00:35:32.780 a beautiful year last year where seven fire departments 00:35:32.780 --> 00:35:35.099 made the move, including Palm Beach County, which 00:35:35.099 --> 00:35:39.239 is a huge one. When that happens, they're getting 00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:41.460 people lining up around the building again to 00:35:41.460 --> 00:35:44.300 become a firefighter for them. Because just like 00:35:44.300 --> 00:35:46.699 you touched on earlier, we're showing you that 00:35:46.699 --> 00:35:48.599 we care about you. We're investing in you. We 00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:50.920 want to give you an environment that sets you 00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:53.260 up for success, gets you home with your family 00:35:53.260 --> 00:35:55.400 so you can be at those games and recitals with 00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:59.239 your children. you know, the rest and recovery. 00:35:59.380 --> 00:36:00.599 And even, I think this is a really important 00:36:00.599 --> 00:36:03.019 thing too. Now you have the kind of latitude 00:36:03.019 --> 00:36:06.119 to forge, you know, a second career, not like 00:36:06.119 --> 00:36:08.760 work, you know, all hours God sent. But if you're 00:36:08.760 --> 00:36:12.500 a personal trainer or, you know, you're a painter 00:36:12.500 --> 00:36:15.300 or a cabinet fitter or whatever it is, now you 00:36:15.300 --> 00:36:17.880 can go work eight hours on some of these days 00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:19.980 and God forbid you get laid off, you get hurt, 00:36:20.059 --> 00:36:22.659 you get fired. You have this other tribe and 00:36:22.659 --> 00:36:26.369 this other career as well. The money that's saved 00:36:26.369 --> 00:36:29.349 once they fill all the vacancies because people 00:36:29.349 --> 00:36:32.110 want to work for you, now these cities and counties 00:36:32.110 --> 00:36:34.269 are going to save millions and millions every 00:36:34.269 --> 00:36:37.710 single year, which now could go into hiring mental 00:36:37.710 --> 00:36:39.650 health counselors, putting gyms and stations, 00:36:39.989 --> 00:36:42.510 all the things that will only continue to improve. 00:36:43.010 --> 00:36:45.210 So this is what I love. And in the Northwest, 00:36:45.590 --> 00:36:48.030 some of them have the full platoon system, but 00:36:48.030 --> 00:36:50.869 they work debit days, which is crazy to me. Like 00:36:50.869 --> 00:36:53.110 here's a 42 hour work week, but it's only 42 00:36:53.110 --> 00:36:55.989 hours. So we need you to work more again, coming 00:36:55.989 --> 00:36:58.690 from someone that works 40. But I think they're, 00:36:58.690 --> 00:37:01.349 they're closer. So I think the Northwest might 00:37:01.349 --> 00:37:04.050 be another Florida as this kind of gets some 00:37:04.050 --> 00:37:06.750 legs, hopefully other departments will get away 00:37:06.750 --> 00:37:11.050 because the push was to go to a 48 96, which 00:37:11.050 --> 00:37:15.829 is insane. 48 hours in a busy department, but 00:37:15.829 --> 00:37:18.510 it's, that's again, it's. They say a little knowledge 00:37:18.510 --> 00:37:21.070 is a dangerous thing. People found a study, which 00:37:21.070 --> 00:37:23.849 was a study on a department that ran about one 00:37:23.849 --> 00:37:26.789 call a shift, almost no calls at night. And then 00:37:26.789 --> 00:37:29.349 Seattle or whoever the large department ran with 00:37:29.349 --> 00:37:30.889 it, like, oh, this is a better shift. And it's 00:37:30.889 --> 00:37:33.550 like, no, no, no, no. That's like saying, you 00:37:33.550 --> 00:37:35.550 know, my doctor told me cigarettes are good for 00:37:35.550 --> 00:37:41.769 me, so I'm going to start smoking. Well, you 00:37:41.769 --> 00:37:47.000 know, and I always think, you know, they. You're 00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:49.400 at your 48s and I have the firefighters who come 00:37:49.400 --> 00:37:54.199 see me. They've worked 48 and then they're going 00:37:54.199 --> 00:37:57.860 out on calls. Sometimes at the end of the shift, 00:37:58.039 --> 00:38:02.239 a call comes in, they got to go. And so sleep 00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:07.199 deprivation is like being at alcohol level and 00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:10.820 the brain is not functioning. And what are they 00:38:10.820 --> 00:38:14.780 thinking? I just worry about them. And then they're 00:38:14.780 --> 00:38:19.480 driving these million dollar rigs around. So 00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:22.000 I just think I'm surprised we haven't had more 00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:25.239 disasters, but I hope that it changed. I'm glad 00:38:25.239 --> 00:38:27.960 that you're advocating. It's never made sense 00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:31.280 to me. So I'm so glad to hear that you're advocating 00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:35.159 that schedule. Yeah. I mean, I think for performance 00:38:35.159 --> 00:38:37.179 and mental health, for all the things, it's a 00:38:37.179 --> 00:38:39.280 it's a no brainer, but it's just I'll be completely 00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:42.769 honest. You know, we are. Completely brainwashed 00:38:42.769 --> 00:38:44.989 in the fire service because we are a selfless 00:38:44.989 --> 00:38:46.550 group. There are people all over the country 00:38:46.550 --> 00:38:49.630 that do it for no money whatsoever. And so that 00:38:49.630 --> 00:38:52.429 is still kind of hanging on. But where other 00:38:52.429 --> 00:38:55.670 companies have evolved as things have got bigger 00:38:55.670 --> 00:38:58.309 and bigger stores or train lines or whatever 00:38:58.309 --> 00:39:01.150 that industry is, they hire more people. They 00:39:01.150 --> 00:39:03.750 expand the fire service, I think, sadly, because 00:39:03.750 --> 00:39:05.989 they know that we're going to go regardless because 00:39:05.989 --> 00:39:08.789 we want to serve people. that's been taken advantage 00:39:08.789 --> 00:39:11.269 of and which is why we're so far from where we 00:39:11.269 --> 00:39:14.090 need to be so the uh you know the future of the 00:39:14.090 --> 00:39:17.269 fire service i hope is is longevity is a higher 00:39:17.269 --> 00:39:19.869 level of fitness and performance and hopefully 00:39:19.869 --> 00:39:22.969 10 years from now young recruits will walk through 00:39:22.969 --> 00:39:24.909 a door and they won't be greeted with oh you 00:39:24.909 --> 00:39:27.010 wait 10 years from now you'll be on your third 00:39:27.010 --> 00:39:29.429 divorce and an alcoholic you know that's just 00:39:29.429 --> 00:39:31.130 i mean if that's not a red flag i don't know 00:39:31.130 --> 00:39:34.550 what it is yeah well sometimes when i've asks 00:39:34.550 --> 00:39:37.889 firefighters about it, they actually really have 00:39:37.889 --> 00:39:40.170 said to me, I like the schedule because I have 00:39:40.170 --> 00:39:43.030 all these days off. And I could trade out, you 00:39:43.030 --> 00:39:44.809 know, and take a vacation without taking vacation 00:39:44.809 --> 00:39:48.389 time. And, you know, so I've gotten a little 00:39:48.389 --> 00:39:52.070 pushback from the firefighters as well. I have 00:39:52.070 --> 00:39:54.050 too. And I'm actually, I'm in the process of 00:39:54.050 --> 00:39:56.329 writing a piece on cowardice in the fire service. 00:39:56.429 --> 00:39:59.190 And it's exactly that. If you're pushing back 00:39:59.190 --> 00:40:02.750 against more time at home, then you've completely 00:40:02.750 --> 00:40:05.650 lost your way. You know, if you just think this 00:40:05.650 --> 00:40:08.610 identity of being at work is more important than 00:40:08.610 --> 00:40:10.570 being present with your children, especially 00:40:10.570 --> 00:40:12.150 if we're talking about multi -generational trauma, 00:40:12.289 --> 00:40:15.289 if you were never there, you are destroying your 00:40:15.289 --> 00:40:18.110 kids' mental health. So it's really reframing 00:40:18.110 --> 00:40:20.570 it and getting away from this kind of, you know, 00:40:20.590 --> 00:40:23.449 chest beating face, fake machismo that seems 00:40:23.449 --> 00:40:26.010 to be, you know, around at the moment and refine 00:40:26.010 --> 00:40:28.869 what is most important. To me, my family was 00:40:28.869 --> 00:40:30.570 even before the fire service, which is why I 00:40:30.570 --> 00:40:32.409 traveled all the way to the West Coast and all 00:40:32.409 --> 00:40:34.690 the way back to the East. because I put my family 00:40:34.690 --> 00:40:37.789 first. So if you put that back front and center, 00:40:37.889 --> 00:40:40.769 and then you learn the impact of sleep deprivation 00:40:40.769 --> 00:40:43.670 on the chances of our children having pediatric 00:40:43.670 --> 00:40:47.170 diseases goes up immensely, then it's for them. 00:40:47.369 --> 00:40:49.849 It's not about you and your mustache and your 00:40:49.849 --> 00:40:52.130 selfies. It's about your family, your relationship, 00:40:52.389 --> 00:40:54.849 your children's health, and your ability to be 00:40:54.849 --> 00:40:57.829 present. But like you said, that's a hard sell, 00:40:57.949 --> 00:41:00.789 especially when you do have an overworked, stressed. 00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:05.559 men and women in uniform, the ability to critically 00:41:05.559 --> 00:41:07.900 think goes down and you do become a zombie and 00:41:07.900 --> 00:41:10.260 you just keep doing what you've always been doing. 00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:15.699 Yes, I agree. All right. Well, you mentioned 00:41:15.699 --> 00:41:19.159 about 18 years in mental health and first responder 00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:21.760 profession. Let's kind of finally go back to 00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:25.139 your early life. So tell me where you were born 00:41:25.139 --> 00:41:27.079 and tell me a little bit about your family dynamic, 00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:30.840 what your parents did, how many siblings. Wow, 00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:35.079 you're really going back. I grew up in a small 00:41:35.079 --> 00:41:39.300 farming town in Central California. It was Ripon. 00:41:39.320 --> 00:41:43.139 It was a Dutch farming community, and it was 00:41:43.139 --> 00:41:46.139 a great place to grow up. It was when you roamed 00:41:46.139 --> 00:41:51.889 the streets at a young age without parents. And 00:41:51.889 --> 00:41:56.090 I had three other siblings, but they were much 00:41:56.090 --> 00:41:58.769 older than I was. I have a sister who's 13 years 00:41:58.769 --> 00:42:01.150 older, a brother 11 years older, and a brother 00:42:01.150 --> 00:42:04.929 four years older. So I have some only child characteristics 00:42:04.929 --> 00:42:07.590 and youngest child characteristics, which is 00:42:07.590 --> 00:42:10.829 an interesting combination. So what did your 00:42:10.829 --> 00:42:15.239 parents do as occupation? Oh, well, my dad was 00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:19.340 in the propane business. So he provided the propane 00:42:19.340 --> 00:42:22.900 to the farmers. And then my mom was his bookkeeper. 00:42:23.400 --> 00:42:27.280 So I grew up in a home where mom worked, which 00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:31.179 was very rare in those days. Yeah, absolutely. 00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:34.840 So I often came home as a young kid. I even remember 00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:38.789 first and second grade and no one was home. Yeah, 00:42:38.889 --> 00:42:41.250 I did. My dad would say, oh, well, she can come 00:42:41.250 --> 00:42:43.190 down to the store because I could walk there. 00:42:43.670 --> 00:42:48.409 But it was so boring. I was lucky. My dad was 00:42:48.409 --> 00:42:50.429 a veterinary surgeon, so it wasn't boring going 00:42:50.429 --> 00:42:55.489 to work with him, you know, fixing. When you 00:42:55.489 --> 00:42:59.349 reflect horses and, you know, we had every animal 00:42:59.349 --> 00:43:03.170 known to man at some point. Well, speaking of 00:43:03.170 --> 00:43:06.869 that, so when you reflect back now. And we talked 00:43:06.869 --> 00:43:08.929 before about where you're living now and having 00:43:08.929 --> 00:43:11.590 this kind of nature all around you and the healing 00:43:11.590 --> 00:43:15.010 elements there. What were the, whether it's the 00:43:15.010 --> 00:43:16.969 way you ate, the way you moved, you know, mental 00:43:16.969 --> 00:43:19.750 health tools that were kind of woven in, what 00:43:19.750 --> 00:43:21.809 were the good things about that upbringing? And 00:43:21.809 --> 00:43:23.829 were there any things that were actually detrimental 00:43:23.829 --> 00:43:28.710 as you unpacked it later in life? Well, the good 00:43:28.710 --> 00:43:32.110 things were I was surrounded by a community that 00:43:32.110 --> 00:43:34.460 knew me and loved me. which is good and bad. 00:43:34.579 --> 00:43:36.820 Sometimes, you know, as I got older, they knew 00:43:36.820 --> 00:43:40.360 everything before, you know, my parents did sometimes, 00:43:40.539 --> 00:43:43.619 but, but it was really a wonderful community. 00:43:43.820 --> 00:43:46.119 You know, I can hop on my bike and ride anywhere 00:43:46.119 --> 00:43:49.199 and wherever you were, the mom at lunchtime, 00:43:49.239 --> 00:43:51.619 the mom just fed you, you know, and at five, 00:43:51.619 --> 00:43:54.079 she shooed everybody home. I mean, it was just 00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:56.820 a really a wonderful, you know, way to grow up 00:43:56.820 --> 00:44:00.920 learning at a young age, how to work. You know, 00:44:00.940 --> 00:44:02.900 I started working as soon as you could get your 00:44:03.559 --> 00:44:07.380 permit to work, which was, I think, 12. I think 00:44:07.380 --> 00:44:08.940 it was younger than I because I was like between 00:44:08.940 --> 00:44:11.300 fifth and sixth grade. I would get up at five 00:44:11.300 --> 00:44:13.320 in the morning and go pick berries, you know, 00:44:13.320 --> 00:44:16.460 so learned work ethic at a young age. We had 00:44:16.460 --> 00:44:19.739 we had walnuts and almonds or almonds, as you 00:44:19.739 --> 00:44:23.940 East Coasters call them, and grape. I mean, we 00:44:23.940 --> 00:44:26.440 had all that that we farmed ourself on our own 00:44:26.440 --> 00:44:30.460 property as well as helping others. And so, you 00:44:30.460 --> 00:44:32.820 know, it was a great a great way to grow up. 00:44:33.579 --> 00:44:40.860 The downside, you know, as I grew up, I did have 00:44:40.860 --> 00:44:44.860 to deal with some sexual abuse by a brother when 00:44:44.860 --> 00:44:51.699 I was in junior high and, you know, was raped 00:44:51.699 --> 00:44:55.599 when I was 16 on a date. So, you know, there 00:44:55.599 --> 00:44:58.880 was some tough stuff that happened there too. 00:45:00.980 --> 00:45:03.119 You know, as I've gotten older and talked to 00:45:03.119 --> 00:45:05.440 others, you know, there were others in our community 00:45:05.440 --> 00:45:07.860 who suffered those kind of things as well. And 00:45:07.860 --> 00:45:10.500 it was all a big secret. No one ever talked about 00:45:10.500 --> 00:45:13.599 it. You know, if if if someone got pregnant, 00:45:13.739 --> 00:45:17.079 they were sent away and they'd come home after 00:45:17.079 --> 00:45:20.280 the baby was born. So it was that kind of community 00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:23.980 as well. So that would be the downside. Yeah, 00:45:24.039 --> 00:45:26.969 that's a. That's absolutely awful downside. I'm 00:45:26.969 --> 00:45:29.530 so sorry that happened to you. I've heard it 00:45:29.530 --> 00:45:32.150 so much, though. I mean, people come on. I obviously 00:45:32.150 --> 00:45:33.789 a lot of them are military and first responders, 00:45:34.010 --> 00:45:37.010 but a lot of them from other areas, too. And 00:45:37.010 --> 00:45:39.909 the prevalence of sexual abuse in our uniform 00:45:39.909 --> 00:45:42.750 professions, for example, is a lot of them who 00:45:42.750 --> 00:45:45.030 are men, you know, is far greater than I ever 00:45:45.030 --> 00:45:58.159 thought. added to the prevalence of this in your 00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:03.579 community? That's a really good question. If 00:46:03.579 --> 00:46:07.659 we're talking multi -generationally, and with 00:46:07.659 --> 00:46:13.219 my therapist hat on, I think these patterns were 00:46:13.219 --> 00:46:16.719 passed down for generations. I'm curious where 00:46:16.719 --> 00:46:19.380 it started. My grandparents came from Holland 00:46:19.380 --> 00:46:23.480 when they were in their 20s. They didn't know 00:46:23.480 --> 00:46:25.909 each other. until they came to the united states 00:46:25.909 --> 00:46:31.650 um but um you know today i would call my grandfather 00:46:31.650 --> 00:46:35.429 a pedophile i thought i didn't mention my grandfather 00:46:35.429 --> 00:46:41.150 but he you know since early age um three you 00:46:41.150 --> 00:46:44.110 know he he would do things and you know it just 00:46:44.110 --> 00:46:47.650 made me uncomfortable and and it was as an adult 00:46:47.650 --> 00:46:51.739 talking to my cousin you know i think that She, 00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:54.820 you know, described some things too. So I'm wondering 00:46:54.820 --> 00:46:56.579 how many grandchildren, because there was 12 00:46:56.579 --> 00:47:00.059 kids in my dad's family. You know, one died in 00:47:00.059 --> 00:47:03.940 World War II as a pilot. So we had lots of grandkids. 00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:09.840 You know, he had lots of grandkids. And I wondered 00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:16.380 how the sisters, my aunts, you know, I wondered 00:47:16.380 --> 00:47:18.739 what they experienced growing up. And where did 00:47:18.739 --> 00:47:20.599 this start? Because it doesn't come out of nowhere. 00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:24.139 Usually something's happened to them that creates 00:47:24.139 --> 00:47:28.800 this behavior. So generationally, you know, I'd 00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:31.559 be curious to go back to find out where it started. 00:47:32.460 --> 00:47:35.679 But I think a closed community that aren't talking 00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:39.440 and that they keep secrets, you know, it's it's 00:47:39.440 --> 00:47:43.980 about image and it can be very shame based is 00:47:43.980 --> 00:47:48.539 what perpetuates this under the waterline. It's 00:47:48.539 --> 00:47:50.139 funny because you could be describing police 00:47:50.139 --> 00:47:52.139 or fire right now with that same description. 00:47:54.820 --> 00:48:00.099 So reflecting on the community then. They say 00:48:00.099 --> 00:48:02.800 it takes a village, you know, to raise a child. 00:48:02.840 --> 00:48:05.179 And I agree completely. And I feel like this 00:48:05.179 --> 00:48:06.760 is the one of the things we've got away that 00:48:06.760 --> 00:48:08.360 are contributing to some of the issues that we 00:48:08.360 --> 00:48:11.119 see in society. And you have, you know, let's 00:48:11.119 --> 00:48:13.059 say they're not even single parents, a couple, 00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:15.239 and they've got four children and they're trying 00:48:15.239 --> 00:48:17.619 to balance daycare and the jobs. And, you know, 00:48:17.619 --> 00:48:19.679 they're passing like ships in the night. And 00:48:19.679 --> 00:48:22.340 if you look at, you know, tribal humans, those 00:48:22.340 --> 00:48:24.159 children, as just like you were saying, would 00:48:24.159 --> 00:48:26.119 have been kind of raised collectively by everyone. 00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:29.019 so we talked about the dark side of what you 00:48:29.019 --> 00:48:32.079 know wasn't spoken about what about that element 00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:35.880 of community and and you know do we need to kind 00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:39.579 of refine that to to raise these young people 00:48:39.579 --> 00:48:41.460 and maybe even stop this multi -generational 00:48:41.460 --> 00:48:46.599 trauma well i i'm not sure i have the answer 00:48:46.599 --> 00:48:51.099 to how to stop it but what i've heard so many 00:48:51.099 --> 00:48:56.159 stories of of even like you said even guys i 00:48:56.699 --> 00:48:59.519 I probably have had equal on both sides, men 00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:04.539 and women. But it's often probably the most prevalent 00:49:04.539 --> 00:49:09.719 has been the babysitter. It was the neighbor 00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:12.400 who babysat because mom was working. You know, 00:49:12.420 --> 00:49:15.559 I went there every day after school or it was 00:49:15.559 --> 00:49:19.840 the neighbor's dad, you know. So I think that 00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:25.119 we as parents need to be extremely careful. Who 00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:27.300 we leave our children with and make sure we know 00:49:27.300 --> 00:49:31.239 and trust them, because that's where I hear of 00:49:31.239 --> 00:49:35.239 it again and again and again and again. I just 00:49:35.239 --> 00:49:39.179 had a member of I'm blanking which law enforcement. 00:49:39.710 --> 00:49:42.809 task force he was a part of but he was uh hunting 00:49:42.809 --> 00:49:44.989 pedophiles and then putting cases together against 00:49:44.989 --> 00:49:47.750 them and he was saying exactly that you know 00:49:47.750 --> 00:49:50.829 the coach the school teacher the the priest you 00:49:50.829 --> 00:49:54.210 know and i remember someone asked if my son wanted 00:49:54.210 --> 00:49:57.030 to join the scouts and i was like no and it wasn't 00:49:57.030 --> 00:49:59.409 that those individuals locally that i thought 00:49:59.409 --> 00:50:02.349 they were all pedos but it's just you know once 00:50:02.349 --> 00:50:04.769 bitten twice shy when organizations have failed 00:50:04.769 --> 00:50:08.690 to actually address what's going on then of course 00:50:08.690 --> 00:50:10.489 you're going to be cautious and you know if i'm 00:50:10.489 --> 00:50:13.570 not be able to oversee um that happening and 00:50:13.570 --> 00:50:16.230 my son did like the jrotc program so they did 00:50:16.230 --> 00:50:19.550 like a camp a military camp like four days and 00:50:19.550 --> 00:50:22.710 so he got a taste of that kind of you know scout 00:50:22.710 --> 00:50:26.230 camping thing but surrounded by lots lots and 00:50:26.230 --> 00:50:28.389 lots of children and teachers so no one was kind 00:50:28.389 --> 00:50:30.869 of isolated but yeah i'll be completely honest 00:50:30.869 --> 00:50:33.510 that terrified me You know, it's a shame because 00:50:33.510 --> 00:50:35.309 I got lots of friends that are, you know, Eagle 00:50:35.309 --> 00:50:37.769 Scouts, Scout leaders that I know do amazing 00:50:37.769 --> 00:50:40.710 things. But there's certain things I just wasn't 00:50:40.710 --> 00:50:43.130 willing to risk. And even my son, you know, sleepovers 00:50:43.130 --> 00:50:45.670 and that kind of thing. He was extremely it was 00:50:45.670 --> 00:50:47.690 old by the time he did his sleepovers because, 00:50:47.750 --> 00:50:50.690 you know, I couldn't. How do you know? You know, 00:50:50.690 --> 00:50:52.150 oh, they're nice. OK, well, they're nice. But 00:50:52.150 --> 00:50:55.110 that's exactly the profile of a pedophile is 00:50:55.110 --> 00:50:57.349 they're nice. They're loved by everyone. And 00:50:57.349 --> 00:50:59.070 that's the way they're trusted. So it really 00:50:59.070 --> 00:51:02.099 is. It is tough. But I think, again, that community, 00:51:02.460 --> 00:51:05.400 that village, if lots of people are looking, 00:51:05.579 --> 00:51:09.079 then maybe we'll reduce the ability for a predator 00:51:09.079 --> 00:51:11.699 to actually prey on a child. But if they're trusted 00:51:11.699 --> 00:51:13.980 in some basketball program and now everyone else 00:51:13.980 --> 00:51:15.980 has gone home except your child and the coach, 00:51:16.579 --> 00:51:18.500 these are some of the things that are terrifying 00:51:18.500 --> 00:51:23.059 to me. Well, and the other thing, I remember 00:51:23.059 --> 00:51:27.460 telling my mom in fifth grade that grandpa made 00:51:27.460 --> 00:51:29.809 me uncomfortable and would touch me. you know, 00:51:29.809 --> 00:51:34.090 in places. And she told me, well, you shouldn't 00:51:34.090 --> 00:51:36.030 say things like that about your grandfather. 00:51:37.369 --> 00:51:42.070 And, you know, she didn't believe me. And I think 00:51:42.070 --> 00:51:45.469 that we really need to, one, pay attention. When 00:51:45.469 --> 00:51:47.550 our kids say something, we need to pay attention. 00:51:48.050 --> 00:51:52.409 And we need to ask questions. And, you know, 00:51:52.409 --> 00:51:56.389 believe them when they say certain things. And 00:51:56.389 --> 00:51:59.639 the other thing is to trust your gut. Because 00:51:59.639 --> 00:52:03.679 if you have somebody with your child or around 00:52:03.679 --> 00:52:07.420 your child that your gut just you can't put your 00:52:07.420 --> 00:52:10.139 finger on it, but it just doesn't feel right. 00:52:10.260 --> 00:52:12.119 Pay attention to that because it's telling you 00:52:12.119 --> 00:52:15.500 something. Absolutely. Yeah, I saw the documentary 00:52:15.500 --> 00:52:19.699 on Jared, the subway spokesperson, and everyone 00:52:19.699 --> 00:52:21.599 again was trusting him. And it was actually a 00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:24.440 woman that befriended him that no one was believing. 00:52:24.579 --> 00:52:27.179 And so she ended up taking phone calls with him. 00:52:27.449 --> 00:52:29.289 And he was talking about he likes him, you know, 00:52:29.309 --> 00:52:30.849 the younger, the better. And I mean, he was a 00:52:30.849 --> 00:52:34.309 full on like extreme end pedophile. And it was 00:52:34.309 --> 00:52:37.409 just nauseating. Listen to him. But again, he's 00:52:37.409 --> 00:52:39.389 this beloved celebrity that people are throwing 00:52:39.389 --> 00:52:41.590 kids at, just like Michael Jackson, which, again, 00:52:41.630 --> 00:52:44.110 I don't understand the resistance to having that 00:52:44.110 --> 00:52:46.730 conversation. Clearly, he was grooming because 00:52:46.730 --> 00:52:48.829 he would send the parents away and have the kids 00:52:48.829 --> 00:52:52.190 in his bedroom. But yeah, I mean, even now. Well, 00:52:52.230 --> 00:52:54.630 yeah, but he wore a beautiful, shiny glove and 00:52:54.630 --> 00:52:56.289 he could dance. So we'll just not talk about 00:52:56.289 --> 00:52:58.630 that. You know, how about we do talk about it? 00:52:58.670 --> 00:53:00.510 You know, I think it's, you know, just because 00:53:00.510 --> 00:53:02.429 they're charming doesn't mean it discounts. So 00:53:02.429 --> 00:53:04.550 they have to look like some creepy old homeless 00:53:04.550 --> 00:53:07.690 guy to be a pedophile in your eyes. And I think 00:53:07.690 --> 00:53:10.210 that that's an important thing for us to acknowledge 00:53:10.210 --> 00:53:12.429 is that, yeah, you might know someone incredibly 00:53:12.429 --> 00:53:15.449 charming that you really like. That doesn't mean 00:53:15.449 --> 00:53:19.710 they're not a danger to your child. Yes. All 00:53:19.710 --> 00:53:22.309 right. Well, then going back to your kind of 00:53:22.309 --> 00:53:24.949 career path, as you were in those formative years, 00:53:25.090 --> 00:53:27.489 those high school years especially, were you 00:53:27.489 --> 00:53:29.369 already thinking about psychology or was there 00:53:29.369 --> 00:53:32.230 some other career aspiration in mind? Well, I 00:53:32.230 --> 00:53:35.010 didn't have that career aspiration, but I always 00:53:35.010 --> 00:53:39.030 loved it. My senior year, they offered a psychology 00:53:39.030 --> 00:53:42.889 class for the first time and I took it. And I 00:53:42.889 --> 00:53:45.829 realized I was always fascinated by that because 00:53:45.829 --> 00:53:48.849 I wanted to understand why I felt the way I did. 00:53:49.159 --> 00:53:52.300 what I experienced, trying to unpack that. And 00:53:52.300 --> 00:53:55.320 so I think that's where my curiosity came from. 00:53:55.699 --> 00:54:01.139 But, you know, I met an amazing, lovely guy who 00:54:01.139 --> 00:54:04.659 had just finished his college at Stanford and 00:54:04.659 --> 00:54:07.699 moved down to where I was and met and we fell 00:54:07.699 --> 00:54:10.000 in love. He was from Seattle. So that's how I 00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:16.760 ended up in Seattle. And, you know, we were married. 00:54:18.269 --> 00:54:20.750 10 years when we had three children, there were 00:54:20.750 --> 00:54:23.030 three, six, and eight, and he was 35 when he 00:54:23.030 --> 00:54:28.929 was in a car accident. And he was in a vegetative, 00:54:28.929 --> 00:54:33.750 he was in a coma for a year. And then, I don't 00:54:33.750 --> 00:54:35.929 know if you, you probably understand that it's 00:54:35.929 --> 00:54:37.670 kind of, you know, you could put your hands in 00:54:37.670 --> 00:54:39.250 front of their face and there's nothing there. 00:54:39.449 --> 00:54:43.030 That would be a coma. But when, you know, when 00:54:43.030 --> 00:54:45.369 they come out, it's like an infant, they can 00:54:45.369 --> 00:54:49.480 make connection. with their eyes with you. So 00:54:49.480 --> 00:54:53.280 then after a year, he was in that state until 00:54:53.280 --> 00:54:56.679 he died. And so the first five years, I just 00:54:56.679 --> 00:54:59.079 believed if we found the right therapy, the right 00:54:59.079 --> 00:55:02.679 doctors, the right something, he would get better. 00:55:02.880 --> 00:55:07.019 And so I took care of him for several years at 00:55:07.019 --> 00:55:10.380 home, raising the three kids by myself. But after 00:55:10.380 --> 00:55:12.480 five years, I realized he wasn't going to get 00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:17.690 better. And I suddenly had to figure out take 00:55:17.690 --> 00:55:21.090 care of my family. And, and so I finally went 00:55:21.090 --> 00:55:23.130 into therapy, which I should have been in long 00:55:23.130 --> 00:55:25.610 before, but we were living below the poverty 00:55:25.610 --> 00:55:28.269 line on social security and disability. And, 00:55:28.289 --> 00:55:31.010 you know, we could barely afford food half the 00:55:31.010 --> 00:55:35.630 time. And so, so I went into therapy and through 00:55:35.630 --> 00:55:38.789 the conversations, we, he encouraged me to go 00:55:38.789 --> 00:55:41.309 back to school, which is what my late husband, 00:55:41.369 --> 00:55:44.489 Scott had always encouraged me to do. And so 00:55:44.489 --> 00:55:46.750 I only had two years of college. So I ended up 00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:51.840 going to through a BA completion program and 00:55:51.840 --> 00:55:55.320 taking some classes at the junior college at 00:55:55.320 --> 00:55:58.139 the same time and raising the kids. I don't know 00:55:58.139 --> 00:56:01.059 how I did it, but, you know, we do amazing things 00:56:01.059 --> 00:56:03.619 when we have to. I was 40. And so I didn't even 00:56:03.619 --> 00:56:05.559 know how to use a computer yet. And a friend 00:56:05.559 --> 00:56:07.840 gave me a used one and I learned how to use. 00:56:07.880 --> 00:56:10.320 I took a class called Computers for the Fearful 00:56:10.320 --> 00:56:14.019 and and then learned how to do my papers online 00:56:14.019 --> 00:56:18.079 and on my computer. And at graduation, I saw 00:56:18.079 --> 00:56:20.199 those other students getting their hoods and 00:56:20.199 --> 00:56:23.940 I'm like, I think I can do this. Look what I 00:56:23.940 --> 00:56:26.699 accomplished already. And so that was the moment 00:56:26.699 --> 00:56:30.039 I decided to go on and got my master's in counseling. 00:56:30.219 --> 00:56:36.639 So I started out, you know, just seeing. And 00:56:36.639 --> 00:56:41.000 people would send those grief and loss and some 00:56:41.000 --> 00:56:43.519 trauma because they knew that was kind of my 00:56:43.519 --> 00:56:47.400 foundation. And then a couple of years, maybe 00:56:47.400 --> 00:56:53.000 two or three years in, I got a call from a chaplain, 00:56:53.039 --> 00:56:55.119 a police and fire chaplain. And he says, Phyllis, 00:56:55.119 --> 00:56:58.739 I've been praying. We need another chaplain. 00:56:58.780 --> 00:57:00.420 And every time I pray, yours is the only name 00:57:00.420 --> 00:57:04.510 I get. And I go, a what? I'd never heard of it. 00:57:04.769 --> 00:57:08.110 And I heard of a hospital chaplain, but I didn't 00:57:08.110 --> 00:57:10.369 know what a police and fire chaplain was. But 00:57:10.369 --> 00:57:12.889 I knew in that moment that was what I was to 00:57:12.889 --> 00:57:18.739 do. And so, you know, he began to. Bring me along 00:57:18.739 --> 00:57:21.820 with him and tell me how to do this work. And 00:57:21.820 --> 00:57:24.139 so I would see my clients two days a week and 00:57:24.139 --> 00:57:26.579 then I would take the pager and, you know, I 00:57:26.579 --> 00:57:28.960 get dispatched in the middle of the night, three 00:57:28.960 --> 00:57:32.179 in the morning and go to a call. And I would 00:57:32.179 --> 00:57:36.059 sit with the with the citizen. Usually it was 00:57:36.059 --> 00:57:38.820 a death or they projected it was going to be 00:57:38.820 --> 00:57:42.840 a death and typically fire called. But sometimes 00:57:42.840 --> 00:57:47.480 it was police. And and then. I would sit with 00:57:47.480 --> 00:57:49.980 the families. My favorite part of being a chaplain 00:57:49.980 --> 00:57:54.320 was I would show up and the BC or the officer 00:57:54.320 --> 00:57:58.340 in charge would meet me and go, oh, I'm so glad 00:57:58.340 --> 00:58:01.179 you're here. And they would give me a short and 00:58:01.179 --> 00:58:03.820 then they'd walk me and introduce me. But just 00:58:03.820 --> 00:58:06.599 being so welcomed and invited, you know, and 00:58:06.599 --> 00:58:10.340 and appreciated, you know, I loved that part. 00:58:10.440 --> 00:58:13.219 And and so then I would sit with the family and 00:58:13.219 --> 00:58:17.849 I was the one person. That was consistent with 00:58:17.849 --> 00:58:21.269 the family. And, you know, they don't know who 00:58:21.269 --> 00:58:24.070 who's a firefighter, who's a medic, you know, 00:58:24.070 --> 00:58:27.210 who's the police officer or who do I talk to 00:58:27.210 --> 00:58:30.130 or ask this question? And so that was what I 00:58:30.130 --> 00:58:32.989 would do. And and I would explain, you know, 00:58:32.989 --> 00:58:34.909 who these people were and if they had a question, 00:58:35.010 --> 00:58:38.110 who to ask. And and then I would help them figure 00:58:38.110 --> 00:58:42.940 out if their loved one died, help them. Whether, 00:58:43.039 --> 00:58:45.920 you know, I'd explain, you know, we need the 00:58:45.920 --> 00:58:50.420 medical examiner to come out. And so we have 00:58:50.420 --> 00:58:53.280 an NJA. Now, you know, I explained all that and 00:58:53.280 --> 00:58:56.460 and would help them if they needed a funeral 00:58:56.460 --> 00:58:59.400 home. I'd help them find one. And if it was a 00:58:59.400 --> 00:59:02.420 particularly bad call, then I would go back and 00:59:02.420 --> 00:59:06.179 meet with the firefighters and the officers and 00:59:06.179 --> 00:59:09.019 check on them and see how they were doing. And 00:59:09.019 --> 00:59:14.119 so did learned how to do critical incident. briefings, 00:59:14.119 --> 00:59:17.539 CISDs. And, um, and then they started coming 00:59:17.539 --> 00:59:20.099 to see me in my office as well as, you know, 00:59:20.099 --> 00:59:22.679 I was working, um, seeing them while I was going 00:59:22.679 --> 00:59:24.940 out on calls. So I did that. I was a volunteer, 00:59:25.019 --> 00:59:27.659 um, volunteered my time for seven years doing 00:59:27.659 --> 00:59:30.320 that. And I loved it. You know, it was great. 00:59:30.460 --> 00:59:32.840 And then the police chief, um, who was there 00:59:32.840 --> 00:59:35.780 at the time came to me and said, I want to hire 00:59:35.780 --> 00:59:38.380 you as an MHP, a mental health provider to be 00:59:38.380 --> 00:59:42.550 on site so many hours a week. And and then be 00:59:42.550 --> 00:59:47.409 available for crisis when they happen or. And 00:59:47.409 --> 00:59:51.750 so I signed a contract with them. And a month 00:59:51.750 --> 00:59:53.710 later, King County Sheriff called, said, will 00:59:53.710 --> 00:59:55.869 you work with us and our peer support team? And 00:59:55.869 --> 00:59:58.429 then another agency called and, you know, it 00:59:58.429 --> 01:00:03.949 just started to unfold. I I often say I have 01:00:03.949 --> 01:00:07.150 an accidental business. I never set out to have 01:00:07.150 --> 01:00:10.800 this business, but I. You know, it just kept 01:00:10.800 --> 01:00:14.099 growing and they wanted more and more MHPs on 01:00:14.099 --> 01:00:15.960 site. It was just at that edge where they're 01:00:15.960 --> 01:00:19.679 starting to do that. And so I had to hire some 01:00:19.679 --> 01:00:23.420 other therapists to work with me. And they all 01:00:23.420 --> 01:00:27.639 see clients as they all see clients. And then 01:00:27.639 --> 01:00:29.940 they also work on site at an agency. We have 01:00:29.940 --> 01:00:32.480 10 contracts with different agencies in the area. 01:00:33.019 --> 01:00:36.400 And so three years ago, about a year after the 01:00:36.400 --> 01:00:43.519 riots. Seattle PD had a line of duty death. And 01:00:43.519 --> 01:00:47.519 one of the officers that I'd gotten to know called 01:00:47.519 --> 01:00:50.019 me at 7 o 'clock in the morning and said, we 01:00:50.019 --> 01:00:52.480 need you. Will you come? So I canceled my entire 01:00:52.480 --> 01:00:56.739 week and sat with them. And one of my King County 01:00:56.739 --> 01:01:00.079 sergeants, who was a friend, said, you know they're 01:01:00.079 --> 01:01:02.079 going to go after you. And I said, no, they're 01:01:02.079 --> 01:01:05.219 not. I am just helping them out. And six weeks 01:01:05.219 --> 01:01:08.739 later, I got a call. Can we talk? We'd like to 01:01:08.739 --> 01:01:12.320 hire you to put MHPs at each precinct, which 01:01:12.320 --> 01:01:17.960 was an amazing thing for them to do. And so that's 01:01:17.960 --> 01:01:20.980 when I started to work with Seattle as well, 01:01:21.139 --> 01:01:24.920 which has been probably the biggest undertaking 01:01:24.920 --> 01:01:28.280 of all agencies I've worked with. I can imagine. 01:01:28.900 --> 01:01:31.980 Going back to your husband for a moment, did 01:01:31.980 --> 01:01:35.039 you have to make the decision to terminate or 01:01:35.039 --> 01:01:41.579 did he pass away on his own? Well, I had some 01:01:41.579 --> 01:01:44.699 brave souls along the way ask me, you know, have 01:01:44.699 --> 01:01:47.320 you thought about, you know, removing life support? 01:01:47.980 --> 01:01:53.360 And I would say no. I would never even think 01:01:53.360 --> 01:01:57.179 of that because Scott was really a major part 01:01:57.179 --> 01:02:00.219 of my healing journey, you know, through all 01:02:00.219 --> 01:02:02.980 of that, with that abuse and all of that. And 01:02:02.980 --> 01:02:07.559 he was the one who believed in me. In 10 years, 01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:12.360 my life changed so much from him and just his 01:02:12.360 --> 01:02:15.420 incredible love for me. There was no way I was 01:02:15.420 --> 01:02:20.219 just going to take his life support. And I wanted 01:02:20.219 --> 01:02:25.760 to take care of him. But after I got my master's 01:02:25.760 --> 01:02:27.559 degree and I was working, we had a disability 01:02:27.559 --> 01:02:30.800 attorney. So I went to him and he knew I'd been 01:02:30.800 --> 01:02:34.420 in school. And I said, what do I do now? I said, 01:02:34.460 --> 01:02:37.190 I can't work. Because I couldn't go to work because 01:02:37.190 --> 01:02:41.250 he was on Medicaid. And if I went to work, I'd 01:02:41.250 --> 01:02:43.630 have to pay. He was now in a nursing home. I'd 01:02:43.630 --> 01:02:47.610 have to pay the $10 ,000 of his care and make 01:02:47.610 --> 01:02:50.969 enough money to take care of our family. And 01:02:50.969 --> 01:02:55.050 I just wasn't capable of that. And so he said, 01:02:55.110 --> 01:02:56.730 well, have you ever thought about removing life 01:02:56.730 --> 01:03:02.130 support? And later he called it a two Kleenex 01:03:02.130 --> 01:03:06.159 box meeting. Because he gave me a box of Kleenex 01:03:06.159 --> 01:03:08.500 and I went through it and I had to go get another 01:03:08.500 --> 01:03:11.400 one because I just sat there and cried. I just 01:03:11.400 --> 01:03:15.559 couldn't imagine. And it wasn't long, maybe six 01:03:15.559 --> 01:03:17.940 months earlier, there'd been a big case in the 01:03:17.940 --> 01:03:21.280 news where, you know, there was a battle between 01:03:21.280 --> 01:03:24.159 the mom and dad of this person and the wife. 01:03:24.400 --> 01:03:28.079 And I said, I do not want to go there. And I 01:03:28.079 --> 01:03:30.179 don't want my kids have been through enough. 01:03:30.480 --> 01:03:33.960 I don't want them to go through that, too. And, 01:03:33.960 --> 01:03:37.320 and so I remember going out to the parking lot 01:03:37.320 --> 01:03:39.539 and I couldn't even drive for almost an hour 01:03:39.539 --> 01:03:44.840 because I was just so upset, but I began to think 01:03:44.840 --> 01:03:48.159 about it. And one thing I'd learned through all 01:03:48.159 --> 01:03:51.920 of that experience is I didn't make a decision. 01:03:52.059 --> 01:03:55.219 If I waited for that gut level piece, it was 01:03:55.219 --> 01:03:57.360 always the right decision. But if I jumped out 01:03:57.360 --> 01:04:00.260 and made a decision before that, it was often 01:04:00.260 --> 01:04:05.019 the wrong decision. I only told two people. One 01:04:05.019 --> 01:04:08.360 was a close friend who was a therapist and one 01:04:08.360 --> 01:04:11.679 was Scott's mom. And she was very supportive. 01:04:11.800 --> 01:04:13.940 And she said, whatever you decide to do, Phyllis, 01:04:13.940 --> 01:04:18.579 it's up to you. And it took me three months to 01:04:18.579 --> 01:04:21.360 be able to come to that decision. And so I sat 01:04:21.360 --> 01:04:23.880 down with his parents and and they were very. 01:04:24.519 --> 01:04:26.300 you know, supportive. And they said, you know, 01:04:26.320 --> 01:04:28.500 you've been amazing at how you've taken care 01:04:28.500 --> 01:04:32.440 of Scott. And, and we, you know, are there for 01:04:32.440 --> 01:04:35.239 whatever you need to do. It wasn't easy for them. 01:04:35.460 --> 01:04:38.840 It was hard too. And then I met with each of 01:04:38.840 --> 01:04:43.900 my kids one -on -one and they cried and cried. 01:04:43.940 --> 01:04:45.920 And I'd said, well, what do you think your dad 01:04:45.920 --> 01:04:48.900 would want? Do you think he would want to stay 01:04:48.900 --> 01:04:53.349 in this state? Or be free and be able to walk 01:04:53.349 --> 01:04:56.809 again in heaven. And they go, oh, to, you know, 01:04:56.809 --> 01:05:00.909 be able to walk and run again. I said, OK. And 01:05:00.909 --> 01:05:03.309 and then I met with each of his siblings. So, 01:05:03.409 --> 01:05:06.630 you know, my in -laws, I met with each one of 01:05:06.630 --> 01:05:09.289 his brother, his sister and two brothers and 01:05:09.289 --> 01:05:13.489 talked to them. And then the requirement, the 01:05:13.489 --> 01:05:16.730 law, at least in Washington, I'd have two doctors 01:05:16.730 --> 01:05:19.769 verify that it was appropriate. And then the 01:05:19.769 --> 01:05:22.880 facility he was in. had to agree. So there was 01:05:22.880 --> 01:05:26.179 a little bit of issue with the facility and the 01:05:26.179 --> 01:05:28.099 attorney got involved, but we worked through 01:05:28.099 --> 01:05:30.559 all that. And so finally, I mean, it was like 01:05:30.559 --> 01:05:35.400 five months later, you know, we finally had all 01:05:35.400 --> 01:05:39.719 the approvals and, and I sat there, you know, 01:05:39.719 --> 01:05:42.900 after all, all of that, it was a very simple 01:05:42.900 --> 01:05:45.900 thing. He was in hospice at that point, we had 01:05:45.900 --> 01:05:48.860 moved him to hospice and the nurse said, are 01:05:48.860 --> 01:05:51.590 you ready? I mean, basically just took out the 01:05:51.590 --> 01:05:57.150 feeding tube. And it was such a quiet, simple 01:05:57.150 --> 01:06:02.150 process. And after such emotional agony and, 01:06:02.369 --> 01:06:05.250 you know, the kids said, please let us know when 01:06:05.250 --> 01:06:07.269 it's done. So I just called the school and said, 01:06:07.309 --> 01:06:11.809 we just give them a message. It's done. And so 01:06:11.809 --> 01:06:16.849 then we waited. And he lived for over a week. 01:06:17.269 --> 01:06:20.389 And the nurse came to me and said, you know, 01:06:20.489 --> 01:06:23.570 I know you wanted to take him home. That wasn't 01:06:23.570 --> 01:06:26.889 an option in the beginning. And she said, if 01:06:26.889 --> 01:06:29.349 you want to take him home, you need to take him 01:06:29.349 --> 01:06:32.309 home now. And so we arranged to take him home. 01:06:32.369 --> 01:06:36.630 And an ambulance, private ambulance came to get 01:06:36.630 --> 01:06:39.030 him. We loaded him. And I'm sitting in the back 01:06:39.030 --> 01:06:45.639 with him. I had the most amazing experience that's 01:06:45.639 --> 01:06:49.920 hard to really explain, but he stared at me the 01:06:49.920 --> 01:06:55.539 entire time and just with so much love. And he 01:06:55.539 --> 01:07:00.320 wasn't cognitive, able to really process a lot, 01:07:00.400 --> 01:07:04.000 but he just stared at me and I could hear in 01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:08.320 my spirit him thanking me and telling me how 01:07:08.320 --> 01:07:11.800 much he loved me. And we got in the house and 01:07:11.800 --> 01:07:14.340 the hospice nurse was there. We got him set up. 01:07:14.679 --> 01:07:17.920 And within an hour, he went into respiratory 01:07:17.920 --> 01:07:23.780 arrest. And then, you know, it was just the morphine 01:07:23.780 --> 01:07:26.960 after that. And the next morning, we're all sitting 01:07:26.960 --> 01:07:30.619 around his bed. And I'm sure you know what it's 01:07:30.619 --> 01:07:33.179 like, that last breath. You know, you kind of 01:07:33.179 --> 01:07:36.360 think, oh, was that it? And then he breathes 01:07:36.360 --> 01:07:40.199 again. Okay. And then you hold your breath. okay 01:07:40.199 --> 01:07:42.880 is that when it and then finally no more breasts 01:07:42.880 --> 01:07:46.900 came and and um i just had this vision immediately 01:07:46.900 --> 01:07:50.679 of him jumping yelling and screaming when he 01:07:50.679 --> 01:07:52.900 arrived in heaven and everybody's turning around 01:07:52.900 --> 01:07:59.500 going who was that that just got here yeah well 01:07:59.500 --> 01:08:01.699 i mean thank you for sharing that there's i think 01:08:01.699 --> 01:08:03.119 it's important that there may be some people 01:08:03.119 --> 01:08:05.739 listening that are having to consider that decision 01:08:05.739 --> 01:08:08.960 i actually is when i was in medic school It was 01:08:08.960 --> 01:08:13.480 a bizarre shift at work on my my fire department. 01:08:13.659 --> 01:08:15.940 I delivered a baby and then I went and did a 01:08:15.940 --> 01:08:18.680 clinical literally that same day. I think it 01:08:18.680 --> 01:08:23.319 was that evening. And I was in the ICU and extubated 01:08:23.319 --> 01:08:25.859 a terminally ill patient. So I kind of brought 01:08:25.859 --> 01:08:27.760 a life in and then, you know, helped someone 01:08:27.760 --> 01:08:30.920 leave. And it's such a difficult decision for 01:08:30.920 --> 01:08:33.159 these families to make. But when you think about. 01:08:34.090 --> 01:08:37.010 The quality of life and you gave it so much time, 01:08:37.069 --> 01:08:38.850 you know, because you do hear these recovery 01:08:38.850 --> 01:08:41.489 stories. But, you know, when when is that line? 01:08:41.670 --> 01:08:44.350 When is when is enough enough? And, you know, 01:08:44.350 --> 01:08:46.590 now you were able to have closure with your children 01:08:46.590 --> 01:08:48.829 as well. So, I mean, I can't imagine how hard 01:08:48.829 --> 01:08:52.149 that must have been. But on the same time, the 01:08:52.149 --> 01:08:56.909 upside of it as well. Yeah, there were lots of 01:08:56.909 --> 01:09:01.850 tears. I can imagine. Well, you talked about, 01:09:01.850 --> 01:09:04.310 you know, elements of abuse that you had early 01:09:04.310 --> 01:09:06.869 when you were a young woman. And then, you know, 01:09:06.869 --> 01:09:09.050 Scott helps you in this incredible healing journey. 01:09:09.170 --> 01:09:11.350 And then he has this catastrophic, you know, 01:09:11.369 --> 01:09:14.590 event in the car. And now you're having to, you 01:09:14.590 --> 01:09:16.789 know, remove the feeding tube and then watch 01:09:16.789 --> 01:09:19.609 him leave you again. What were the tools that 01:09:19.609 --> 01:09:22.590 you lent into for your own mental health? I mean, 01:09:22.609 --> 01:09:24.149 we've been talking about how you're helping other 01:09:24.149 --> 01:09:26.729 people. What was your toolbox that you accumulated 01:09:26.729 --> 01:09:32.420 after losing your soulmate? You know, I found 01:09:32.420 --> 01:09:36.119 that being in therapy was a big part of my journey. 01:09:36.180 --> 01:09:39.199 And I had an amazing psychologist that I met 01:09:39.199 --> 01:09:42.180 with and the one who encouraged me to go back 01:09:42.180 --> 01:09:46.899 to school. And, you know, I'm still in contact 01:09:46.899 --> 01:09:49.699 with him. He was a big part, but also the support 01:09:49.699 --> 01:09:54.779 I had around me made a lot of difference. I read 01:09:54.779 --> 01:09:58.829 a lot during that time. to help understand my 01:09:58.829 --> 01:10:04.510 own process. I think I get asked the question 01:10:04.510 --> 01:10:08.189 a lot of how I handle all the stories, you know, 01:10:08.229 --> 01:10:11.050 that I hear and from, you know, being on scene 01:10:11.050 --> 01:10:14.229 myself and how do I deal with that trauma? And 01:10:14.229 --> 01:10:17.750 we live in a place that... You know, it's 12 01:10:17.750 --> 01:10:19.510 and a half acres. I look at the mountains and 01:10:19.510 --> 01:10:22.850 the trees and and I've really found that that 01:10:22.850 --> 01:10:26.409 is an important part for me. When I was having 01:10:26.409 --> 01:10:29.270 a really tough day when Scott was alive, I would 01:10:29.270 --> 01:10:33.390 grab my journal, my Bible and a blanket and I 01:10:33.390 --> 01:10:36.329 would go find the water. And I would sit in a 01:10:36.329 --> 01:10:39.430 park, you know, and I would write and write and 01:10:39.430 --> 01:10:42.569 write and sit and stare at the water. And there's 01:10:42.569 --> 01:10:45.850 something that would I call it nurture my soul. 01:10:46.600 --> 01:10:49.619 And and often I'd sit there till I was shaking. 01:10:49.699 --> 01:10:52.539 I was so cold and I'd have to go back in the 01:10:52.539 --> 01:10:56.340 car and drive home. But I've always found part 01:10:56.340 --> 01:11:02.399 of it is is nature and and just it calms my soul. 01:11:02.760 --> 01:11:06.899 And the other is is friends, you know, who really 01:11:06.899 --> 01:11:11.689 are empathic and understanding. And willing to 01:11:11.689 --> 01:11:14.210 support me and walk alongside me. I don't think 01:11:14.210 --> 01:11:17.510 I could have gotten through all of that healing 01:11:17.510 --> 01:11:21.729 journey and from Scott and the abuse, all of 01:11:21.729 --> 01:11:25.649 it without having good people around me who love 01:11:25.649 --> 01:11:30.900 me dearly. What's interesting reflecting. What 01:11:30.900 --> 01:11:33.000 people were told during the pandemic. The reason 01:11:33.000 --> 01:11:35.479 why I talk about the pandemic still is that there 01:11:35.479 --> 01:11:37.399 are things that we can take away. I feel that 01:11:37.399 --> 01:11:39.119 was an element of just sweeping it under the 01:11:39.119 --> 01:11:41.159 rug and we don't want to talk about it now. Well, 01:11:41.239 --> 01:11:43.359 when, you know, when are we going to learn what 01:11:43.359 --> 01:11:46.359 went well and what went terribly if we don't 01:11:46.359 --> 01:11:49.529 kind of pick it apart after the fact? But being 01:11:49.529 --> 01:11:51.670 told to stay in your house, being told not to 01:11:51.670 --> 01:11:53.989 be around your friends and family. I mean, then 01:11:53.989 --> 01:11:56.949 the nutritional side, fast food, alcohol delivered 01:11:56.949 --> 01:11:59.550 to your house, binge watch Netflix. I mean, there 01:11:59.550 --> 01:12:02.569 were so many things that go against what actually 01:12:02.569 --> 01:12:04.850 forges good mental health. But when I hear and 01:12:04.850 --> 01:12:07.029 ask people that question, how do you decompress? 01:12:07.789 --> 01:12:10.449 Just the last guest before you yesterday, same 01:12:10.449 --> 01:12:13.250 thing. He's a surfer. He's a free diver. It's 01:12:13.250 --> 01:12:15.649 the water. I go to Crescent Beach. For me, it's 01:12:15.649 --> 01:12:18.250 the water. It's nature. It's all these things. 01:12:18.409 --> 01:12:21.350 So, you know, next time if there's a pandemic, 01:12:21.470 --> 01:12:24.149 I hope people are like, no, go to the beach. 01:12:24.270 --> 01:12:26.550 Go to the park. Don't lick each other's faces. 01:12:26.810 --> 01:12:29.369 Let's not go crazy now. But, you know, get in 01:12:29.369 --> 01:12:31.789 the daylight. Get the sun on your skin and get 01:12:31.789 --> 01:12:34.149 dirt under your nails. And these are the things 01:12:34.149 --> 01:12:35.989 that kept a lot of people healthy for a long 01:12:35.989 --> 01:12:39.229 time. And even when I reflect on my early life. 01:12:39.689 --> 01:12:42.210 which had, you know, numerous traumas, why didn't 01:12:42.210 --> 01:12:44.550 I get as low as some of these, you know, men 01:12:44.550 --> 01:12:47.189 and women I had on the show? It's because that 01:12:47.189 --> 01:12:50.210 was woven into my childhood, just by pure luck, 01:12:50.350 --> 01:12:52.689 just chance. I was on a farm, you know, my dad 01:12:52.689 --> 01:12:54.829 healed animals. So I had equine therapy, I had 01:12:54.829 --> 01:12:57.550 canine therapy, I had, you know, nature, I had 01:12:57.550 --> 01:13:00.029 a large dining room table that we all laughed 01:13:00.029 --> 01:13:03.350 and joked around my family. So, you know, these 01:13:03.350 --> 01:13:07.300 simple human elements are so, so important. and 01:13:07.300 --> 01:13:10.380 you reflect on living in New York City as concrete 01:13:10.380 --> 01:13:12.760 jungle, how many of those healing elements are 01:13:12.760 --> 01:13:15.399 just, they're just not available. So I think 01:13:15.399 --> 01:13:17.939 these are really important to reflect on, you 01:13:17.939 --> 01:13:19.739 know, what are the things that work and how can 01:13:19.739 --> 01:13:22.619 people kind of position themselves to be able 01:13:22.619 --> 01:13:25.020 to be outside more and do all these things that 01:13:25.020 --> 01:13:29.539 seem to naturally help the healing process. I 01:13:29.539 --> 01:13:33.739 agree. And and but I think it's different for 01:13:33.739 --> 01:13:37.180 everybody. I probably hear as I ask that question 01:13:37.180 --> 01:13:41.279 to the first responders and and hiking, being 01:13:41.279 --> 01:13:43.439 out on my dirt bike. Those are the things that 01:13:43.439 --> 01:13:47.800 I hear most often from them. So I think that 01:13:47.800 --> 01:13:50.239 that's true for a lot of them. But for some, 01:13:50.279 --> 01:13:52.369 it's different. For some, it's staying quiet 01:13:52.369 --> 01:13:54.989 and reading a book in front of the fireplace. 01:13:55.909 --> 01:13:59.750 It's about finding what works for you. I said, 01:14:00.149 --> 01:14:05.729 what nurtures your soul? And then do that. Absolutely. 01:14:05.949 --> 01:14:08.989 Well, you mentioned about going into our profession 01:14:08.989 --> 01:14:13.829 18 years ago. Talk to me about the first impression. 01:14:14.520 --> 01:14:16.619 what was already good and what was absolutely 01:14:16.619 --> 01:14:19.659 terrible? And then what is the metamorphosis 01:14:19.659 --> 01:14:22.239 that you've seen over the last almost two decades 01:14:22.239 --> 01:14:24.819 as far as things that are hopefully moving in 01:14:24.819 --> 01:14:29.560 the right direction? Well, that's a wide open 01:14:29.560 --> 01:14:34.380 question. One of the things that I remember early 01:14:34.380 --> 01:14:39.560 on thinking about is the connection I made with 01:14:39.560 --> 01:14:43.600 these first responders. Now, the chaplain, Pat, 01:14:44.279 --> 01:14:46.640 who was kind of mentoring me, he said, it'll 01:14:46.640 --> 01:14:48.760 take you probably two years. It's about building 01:14:48.760 --> 01:14:53.600 trust because they don't trust anyone. And so 01:14:53.600 --> 01:14:56.479 it takes time to build that trust. It'll take 01:14:56.479 --> 01:14:59.279 you about two years. And in six months, I was 01:14:59.279 --> 01:15:02.479 totally in for various reasons because of different 01:15:02.479 --> 01:15:05.960 crisis that I showed up on and helped them with, 01:15:06.060 --> 01:15:09.279 some of them personal. And suddenly I was in. 01:15:09.479 --> 01:15:14.890 And I'm like. I that they trusted me and I had 01:15:14.890 --> 01:15:19.310 never talked to a police officer, you know, other 01:15:19.310 --> 01:15:21.630 than when I got pulled over as a teen for speeding 01:15:21.630 --> 01:15:26.970 or rolling through a stop sign. But, you know, 01:15:26.989 --> 01:15:30.890 they were such wonderful people and such quality 01:15:30.890 --> 01:15:34.449 people. That was my first impression as I got 01:15:34.449 --> 01:15:37.810 to know them and built relationships with them. 01:15:38.470 --> 01:15:44.079 And but. One of the hard part was seeing the 01:15:44.079 --> 01:15:47.640 impact of the career they had chosen on their 01:15:47.640 --> 01:15:54.260 families. And when, for example, when the Lakewood 01:15:54.260 --> 01:15:56.939 Four, do you remember that when they were killed 01:15:56.939 --> 01:15:59.979 here in our area? There were four officers in 01:15:59.979 --> 01:16:05.060 a coffee shop in Lakewood. Vaguely, what's so 01:16:05.060 --> 01:16:06.939 sad is there have been so many. I can think of 01:16:06.939 --> 01:16:08.600 the ones that were shot eating Chinese food. 01:16:08.779 --> 01:16:10.579 I mean, they all kind of blew us together now. 01:16:10.699 --> 01:16:12.979 So I'm sure I remember when it happened. But 01:16:12.979 --> 01:16:15.340 I mean, there's just I mean, the execution of 01:16:15.340 --> 01:16:17.279 police officers is just horrendous these days. 01:16:17.779 --> 01:16:21.079 It is. Well, we had about six, those two more 01:16:21.079 --> 01:16:24.119 and then those four that were all kind of bang, 01:16:24.220 --> 01:16:26.479 bang, bang. So Seattle, anybody in this area 01:16:26.479 --> 01:16:29.100 will remember the Lakewood four. Well, they were 01:16:29.100 --> 01:16:31.000 in a coffee shop and someone came in and shot 01:16:31.000 --> 01:16:34.800 them all. And and then there was a big manhunt. 01:16:34.859 --> 01:16:37.579 So everybody was involved. But after the Lakewood 01:16:37.579 --> 01:16:39.500 Shore, you know, as soon as I heard it, I was 01:16:39.500 --> 01:16:42.119 at the police station asking the officers how 01:16:42.119 --> 01:16:44.380 they're doing, checking in with them. And it 01:16:44.380 --> 01:16:48.760 was interesting. They said to me, I'm OK. It's 01:16:48.760 --> 01:16:52.539 my wife who's freaking out. And I never thought 01:16:52.539 --> 01:16:57.409 about them in that way until that moment. And 01:16:57.409 --> 01:16:59.810 I realized, because I asked some more questions, 01:16:59.850 --> 01:17:02.909 I said, well, what are they worried about? They're 01:17:02.909 --> 01:17:06.010 worried about me getting killed that way. And 01:17:06.010 --> 01:17:10.569 they kept saying to me, officer after officer, 01:17:10.810 --> 01:17:17.170 they want me to quit my job. And so that's what 01:17:17.170 --> 01:17:23.260 I realized is how much the spouses carry. of 01:17:23.260 --> 01:17:27.939 concern and worry and have talked a lot to them 01:17:27.939 --> 01:17:31.600 about that sense, what it's like to be married 01:17:31.600 --> 01:17:34.399 to a first responder. It's not easy. They're 01:17:34.399 --> 01:17:39.880 gone a lot. I had one officer's wife who, he 01:17:39.880 --> 01:17:42.199 was on SWAT, so he'd get paged out in the middle 01:17:42.199 --> 01:17:46.079 of the night and then she'd be wondering, is 01:17:46.079 --> 01:17:48.000 he going to be okay? Is he not going to be okay? 01:17:48.260 --> 01:17:50.140 And then one night she got the call that he'd 01:17:50.140 --> 01:17:55.329 been shot. You know, and and he didn't die. He 01:17:55.329 --> 01:17:58.930 recovered. But, you know, it took her years to 01:17:58.930 --> 01:18:02.350 recover from that phone call and that that experience. 01:18:03.310 --> 01:18:06.569 So they suffer a great deal and no one notices. 01:18:06.729 --> 01:18:09.869 I think a lot of times even the agencies don't 01:18:09.869 --> 01:18:13.329 pay attention to the spouses and what they go 01:18:13.329 --> 01:18:16.050 through. Yeah, well, I mean, this is, again, 01:18:16.189 --> 01:18:19.289 one of my main arguments here is I had a friend 01:18:19.289 --> 01:18:22.149 of mine who's a firefighter in this local department 01:18:22.149 --> 01:18:24.369 and his wife, who's a nurse practitioner, and 01:18:24.369 --> 01:18:28.250 they came on together. And, you know, my friend 01:18:28.250 --> 01:18:31.109 is amazing, but he's indoctrinated into that 01:18:31.109 --> 01:18:34.770 culture. So hearing his wife's perspective of 01:18:34.770 --> 01:18:37.109 what happens just even when it's the normal shift, 01:18:37.210 --> 01:18:39.859 but then that mandatory overtime. You're supposed 01:18:39.859 --> 01:18:42.159 to be coming home. She's a career woman as well. 01:18:42.199 --> 01:18:45.260 They've got two kids. You know, the impact of 01:18:45.260 --> 01:18:48.239 that, because this is what is not being factored 01:18:48.239 --> 01:18:50.100 in. This is, oh, well, you've got to stay another 01:18:50.100 --> 01:18:52.220 shift. We're shorthanded. Well, there's a lot 01:18:52.220 --> 01:18:54.079 of other people that are affected by that decision. 01:18:54.319 --> 01:18:56.920 And again, it's the wildfires in L .A. OK, I 01:18:56.920 --> 01:18:59.560 get it. There's an absolute disaster happening 01:18:59.560 --> 01:19:01.840 at the moment. But you're using this as a staffing 01:19:01.840 --> 01:19:06.039 model for a decade. That's so unfair on the families 01:19:06.039 --> 01:19:11.520 of these first responders. It is. And they're 01:19:11.520 --> 01:19:15.439 exhausted. And I hear the story again and again 01:19:15.439 --> 01:19:18.699 of he comes in the door, he's worked, you know, 01:19:18.699 --> 01:19:23.300 a 48 or, you know, been out on a call. Someone 01:19:23.300 --> 01:19:25.439 was murdered and had to do an investigation, 01:19:25.520 --> 01:19:29.739 worked way over time. And then he walks in and 01:19:29.739 --> 01:19:32.859 the wife hands him the baby and says, here, I 01:19:32.859 --> 01:19:35.970 can't do it anymore. And he's exhausted. But 01:19:35.970 --> 01:19:38.510 she's exhausted, too. So what do you do? You 01:19:38.510 --> 01:19:42.170 have a baby to take care of, you know, and and 01:19:42.170 --> 01:19:46.789 I when I get I have more. I have a lot of couples, 01:19:46.970 --> 01:19:49.109 first responder couples that come to see me. 01:19:49.149 --> 01:19:51.770 You know, I talked about you. You've got to talk 01:19:51.770 --> 01:19:55.829 through how you manage those moments. You know, 01:19:55.829 --> 01:19:58.689 what do you each need? Maybe he needs a few minutes 01:19:58.689 --> 01:20:01.689 to change his clothes, to take a shower, and 01:20:01.689 --> 01:20:04.890 then maybe he'll take the baby, you know, and 01:20:04.890 --> 01:20:08.329 you can have a break. But how to communicate 01:20:08.329 --> 01:20:12.710 what you both need is so important. And then 01:20:12.710 --> 01:20:16.430 we talk about how do you talk about what you 01:20:16.430 --> 01:20:18.909 experienced on the job? Because that's a tough 01:20:18.909 --> 01:20:20.810 one, too. Some don't tell their spouse anything. 01:20:21.789 --> 01:20:25.079 And some can tell them everything. Well, it depends 01:20:25.079 --> 01:20:26.960 if you're married to another first responder 01:20:26.960 --> 01:20:30.800 or an ICU nurse or the emergency room nurse, 01:20:30.939 --> 01:20:36.039 a lot of those. And they can take those stories 01:20:36.039 --> 01:20:39.359 because they have their own to tell. But there's 01:20:39.359 --> 01:20:42.359 others that can't take the story. And so how, 01:20:42.560 --> 01:20:44.640 you know, and they say, well, I don't want to 01:20:44.640 --> 01:20:46.500 traumatize them. So I don't tell them anything. 01:20:47.260 --> 01:20:50.579 Well, I get that. And I appreciate that. But 01:20:50.579 --> 01:20:53.430 you need to say. I had a really rough call. It 01:20:53.430 --> 01:20:58.350 was a kid call, you know, or whatever, a little 01:20:58.350 --> 01:21:01.130 bit of information. Otherwise, they think you're 01:21:01.130 --> 01:21:06.069 mad at them. You know, they disappear. They isolate. 01:21:06.489 --> 01:21:09.869 And the spouse thinks, what did I do wrong? Did 01:21:09.869 --> 01:21:12.810 I say something? You know, they don't know. It's 01:21:12.810 --> 01:21:16.750 not them. And so communication is so important 01:21:16.750 --> 01:21:23.739 in the first responder couple. Absolutely. I 01:21:23.739 --> 01:21:26.180 almost don't like the word stigma anymore because 01:21:26.180 --> 01:21:28.880 it seems like a lot of us have got stuck on that 01:21:28.880 --> 01:21:32.500 word rather than healing tools and post -traumatic 01:21:32.500 --> 01:21:35.000 growth and all the things that are over that 01:21:35.000 --> 01:21:37.939 fence that's called stigma. But in the law enforcement 01:21:37.939 --> 01:21:41.260 profession, you hear even more fear of talking 01:21:41.260 --> 01:21:43.960 because of having your badge and gun taken away. 01:21:44.489 --> 01:21:46.569 Versus in the fire service, we don't have a gun. 01:21:46.689 --> 01:21:48.630 So it's not, you know, that particular element 01:21:48.630 --> 01:21:52.350 isn't as acute. What have you seen as far as 01:21:52.350 --> 01:21:55.850 that issue, that barrier to courageous vulnerability 01:21:55.850 --> 01:21:59.050 from when you first entered to where we are in 01:21:59.050 --> 01:22:06.270 2025? Well, I actually think a lot of first responders 01:22:06.270 --> 01:22:12.789 shut down more over time. You know, they stuff 01:22:12.789 --> 01:22:18.130 everything. They push it down and don't want 01:22:18.130 --> 01:22:21.350 to talk about it. And I advocate when you have 01:22:21.350 --> 01:22:25.069 a critical incident, you need to deal with it 01:22:25.069 --> 01:22:31.970 then because it accumulates. And the cumulative 01:22:31.970 --> 01:22:37.329 trauma is what can wipe out officers and firefighters. 01:22:39.850 --> 01:22:42.970 You know, I've had a medic just recently who's 01:22:42.970 --> 01:22:46.069 had some really rough calls over the years. And 01:22:46.069 --> 01:22:51.170 he said, I can hardly stay at work. It is so 01:22:51.170 --> 01:22:55.350 hard just to be there. And so it's so important 01:22:55.350 --> 01:22:58.390 to deal with each one as you go. And these older 01:22:58.390 --> 01:23:02.489 first responders didn't get that training when 01:23:02.489 --> 01:23:06.350 they first came in. This is new of really the 01:23:06.350 --> 01:23:12.550 last 10 or 15 years. You know, if you you aren't 01:23:12.550 --> 01:23:15.949 a newer officer or firefighter, you didn't learn 01:23:15.949 --> 01:23:19.170 about mental health and why it's important. And 01:23:19.170 --> 01:23:22.329 it was kind of looked down upon. You know, that 01:23:22.329 --> 01:23:26.069 was the era of suck it up, buttercup. And and 01:23:26.069 --> 01:23:29.789 I'm so that you asked about change that I've 01:23:29.789 --> 01:23:33.850 seen. That is the one I'm so happy to see. I 01:23:33.850 --> 01:23:39.229 often think of it like a. a large cargo ship, 01:23:39.430 --> 01:23:43.470 container ship. They say it takes 10 miles for 01:23:43.470 --> 01:23:47.409 them to turn out in the ocean. And that's what 01:23:47.409 --> 01:23:50.050 I think it's like for mental health and first 01:23:50.050 --> 01:23:54.789 responders. It's been a long 10 or plus years 01:23:54.789 --> 01:23:57.909 to make that turn. But I think we've made the 01:23:57.909 --> 01:24:00.630 turn and we're coming around and mental health 01:24:00.630 --> 01:24:08.010 is valued and encouraged. and there's more mental 01:24:08.010 --> 01:24:13.050 health like me on site at agencies and it's growing 01:24:13.050 --> 01:24:18.010 so i that's the one thing i am so grateful for 01:24:18.010 --> 01:24:22.390 to see happening what do you think is the the 01:24:22.390 --> 01:24:25.350 gold standard model and again i get there's nuances 01:24:25.350 --> 01:24:28.310 in in departments but from the conversations 01:24:28.310 --> 01:24:32.170 that i've had It seems like the onsite mental 01:24:32.170 --> 01:24:35.729 health counselor clinician is the best one, especially 01:24:35.729 --> 01:24:39.949 for me. If you make even the probationary, you 01:24:39.949 --> 01:24:43.430 know, the new recruits have X amount of sessions, 01:24:43.550 --> 01:24:45.770 I think that will be a beautiful way of addressing 01:24:45.770 --> 01:24:48.750 what we brought into the profession. So in normalizing 01:24:48.750 --> 01:24:51.369 this conversation and having no barrier to entry 01:24:51.369 --> 01:24:53.329 because, oh, I already know Phyllis. I'm going 01:24:53.329 --> 01:24:55.149 to go talk to Phyllis about that kid call I just 01:24:55.149 --> 01:24:58.180 had. So if you, again, we talked about this the 01:24:58.180 --> 01:25:00.920 other day, queen for a day, what would be the 01:25:00.920 --> 01:25:05.159 gold standard model for mental health counselors 01:25:05.159 --> 01:25:08.220 or clinicians within a fire service or law enforcement, 01:25:08.300 --> 01:25:13.000 excuse me? Well, what you said, I totally am 01:25:13.000 --> 01:25:16.000 on board with. And this is the piece that is 01:25:16.000 --> 01:25:19.640 just starting to happen is that we catch them 01:25:19.640 --> 01:25:23.489 early on when they're at the academy. You know, 01:25:23.510 --> 01:25:26.029 that we start to talk about mental health and 01:25:26.029 --> 01:25:30.109 encourage good habits. Then we talk about sleep, 01:25:30.210 --> 01:25:33.470 how to talk to your spouse or your partner, how, 01:25:33.590 --> 01:25:36.189 you know, how to do all these things right from 01:25:36.189 --> 01:25:39.449 the beginning, lay a good foundation. And then 01:25:39.449 --> 01:25:42.130 as they come out of the academy and they're on 01:25:42.130 --> 01:25:44.170 probation, you know that you're still checking 01:25:44.170 --> 01:25:46.529 in with them, seeing how they're doing on their 01:25:46.529 --> 01:25:51.090 mental health. I think having an MHP. People 01:25:51.090 --> 01:25:53.050 say, well, what do you do when you're on site? 01:25:53.210 --> 01:25:55.130 I said, well, I have the best job in the world. 01:25:55.170 --> 01:25:58.729 I get paid for just chatting with people. I just 01:25:58.729 --> 01:26:02.369 walk around the stations and sit down at the 01:26:02.369 --> 01:26:06.189 coffee table or lunch table and just chat and 01:26:06.189 --> 01:26:10.329 say, how are you doing? And I build that relationship. 01:26:10.369 --> 01:26:13.390 I do ride -alongs and I'm just out there with 01:26:13.390 --> 01:26:18.340 them. And it's amazing, the trust. I had been 01:26:18.340 --> 01:26:20.699 gone for four weeks. And so last week when I 01:26:20.699 --> 01:26:23.520 was at one department, I had been there like 01:26:23.520 --> 01:26:25.859 six hours already and I was trying to get out 01:26:25.859 --> 01:26:28.460 the door. And every time I started, someone showed 01:26:28.460 --> 01:26:30.720 up and wanted to talk. And then I put, you know, 01:26:30.720 --> 01:26:32.859 going to get my jacket and someone else showed 01:26:32.859 --> 01:26:35.239 up. And then I finally went down to where everybody 01:26:35.239 --> 01:26:37.880 is just to tell, you know, the sergeants I was 01:26:37.880 --> 01:26:40.119 leaving. And then someone else caught me. And 01:26:40.119 --> 01:26:43.479 so it took me two hours to get out the door. 01:26:43.939 --> 01:26:48.409 And, you know, I think that. That is what's great 01:26:48.409 --> 01:26:51.789 because once you build that trust, you know, 01:26:51.810 --> 01:26:54.689 and that you can encourage them to talk about 01:26:54.689 --> 01:26:57.409 things as they go, you know, they still have 01:26:57.409 --> 01:27:00.550 hesitations or they don't, oh, they minimize 01:27:00.550 --> 01:27:03.670 something they've been through. But I think it's 01:27:03.670 --> 01:27:07.449 a good start, you know, to teach them how to 01:27:07.449 --> 01:27:11.350 have good health and to have somebody to talk 01:27:11.350 --> 01:27:13.770 to. There's always the holdouts and there always 01:27:13.770 --> 01:27:17.100 will be. There's a couple of officers. I've been 01:27:17.100 --> 01:27:21.460 at East Precinct for Seattle PD for three and 01:27:21.460 --> 01:27:23.859 a half years now, and there's still some holdouts. 01:27:23.979 --> 01:27:28.220 They'll probably never, never really come and 01:27:28.220 --> 01:27:31.579 share anything, but I try to engage with them. 01:27:31.720 --> 01:27:35.319 I kind of, in my mind, I target them and go, 01:27:35.420 --> 01:27:37.239 okay, there's a challenge. I'm going to take 01:27:37.239 --> 01:27:40.960 that challenge on. And eventually, sometimes 01:27:40.960 --> 01:27:43.899 they'll open up, sometimes not, but at least 01:27:43.899 --> 01:27:48.279 I try. But that's what I would love to see everywhere. 01:27:48.520 --> 01:27:52.239 I did some classes with one agency, you know, 01:27:52.239 --> 01:27:57.180 doing that kind of program where we taught classes 01:27:57.180 --> 01:28:01.079 in their training. And then we had them see the 01:28:01.079 --> 01:28:05.720 MHP or AMHP and went over certain things like 01:28:05.720 --> 01:28:09.239 alcohol use and sleep and stress reduction and 01:28:09.239 --> 01:28:12.239 all of that, teaching them how to do all that. 01:28:12.399 --> 01:28:15.689 I thought it was a great. Great program. Yeah. 01:28:15.770 --> 01:28:18.390 Well, I think especially hearing how many of 01:28:18.390 --> 01:28:21.250 us have an ACE score of, you know, six and above 01:28:21.250 --> 01:28:23.310 in the first responder profession. I know that's 01:28:23.310 --> 01:28:25.149 not an absolute, but it seems like a lot of us 01:28:25.149 --> 01:28:29.329 do. That's a huge opportunity to start dealing 01:28:29.329 --> 01:28:31.010 with some of the stuff. I mean, if you become 01:28:31.010 --> 01:28:33.189 a police officer, you've already told us some 01:28:33.189 --> 01:28:34.890 of the things that you carried into the job. 01:28:35.670 --> 01:28:39.250 So turning those, you know, struggles into strengths, 01:28:39.409 --> 01:28:41.029 you know, allowing us to process them because 01:28:41.029 --> 01:28:42.810 I truly believe and I don't know if I'm just. 01:28:43.399 --> 01:28:47.560 Just all unicorns and rainbows. But I truly believe 01:28:47.560 --> 01:28:50.899 that if you have had some stuff happen and then 01:28:50.899 --> 01:28:53.600 you found your own toolbox to deal with it, I 01:28:53.600 --> 01:28:56.159 think that becomes a superpower in uniform. It 01:28:56.159 --> 01:28:58.300 really does. You're more empathetic and compassionate. 01:28:58.479 --> 01:29:01.399 You're more resilient. But if it's left unaddressed, 01:29:01.539 --> 01:29:03.680 that's a fractured foundation that can actually 01:29:03.680 --> 01:29:06.739 be detrimental as you progress through. It can 01:29:06.739 --> 01:29:09.989 because you'll be triggered on calls. And sometimes 01:29:09.989 --> 01:29:12.850 I call it the invisible string. It goes back 01:29:12.850 --> 01:29:14.649 to something else, but you don't know what it 01:29:14.649 --> 01:29:16.529 is. You don't know why you're reacting the way 01:29:16.529 --> 01:29:19.229 you are, but when you're doing your work. And 01:29:19.229 --> 01:29:22.369 that's the beauty of having an MHP on site, even 01:29:22.369 --> 01:29:24.489 if it's just once a week, which is what most 01:29:24.489 --> 01:29:27.689 of ours do, is I call it triage. We just triage. 01:29:28.130 --> 01:29:30.949 You know, if someone's struggling, you know, 01:29:30.970 --> 01:29:34.029 we'll sit and talk to them. But if we have to 01:29:34.029 --> 01:29:35.529 do therapy, then that's at the off.